C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R
1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N

3 0 J U LY 2 0 2 0

D AY 2 4 1

22 Woodlands Drive
Irene Woods, Centurion
TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088
MOBILE: 066 513 1757
info@gautengtranscribers.co.za

CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY
I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a
VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be
transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE
HELD AT
CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER
158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN

DATE OF HEARING:

30 JULY 2020

TRANSCRIBERS:

B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN;

Page 2 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 3 0 J U LY 2 0 2 0
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s We n t z e l , g o o d m o r n i n g
e v e r y b o d y. A r e y o u r e a d y?
A D V W E N T Z E L : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a i r. Ye s I a m re a d y C h a i r.
C h a i r t h e f i r st i s s u e t o a d d r e s s t h i s m o r n i n g i s a n a p p l i c a t i o n
for

a

p o st p o n e m e n t

Mhlongo.

that

has

been

brought

H e w a s a s k e d t o t e st i f y t o d a y.

by

Colonel

He is being

i m p l i c a t e d b y G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a n d h e w a s a s k e d t o t e st i f y
i n r e s p e ct o f t h o s e a s p e ct s r a i s e d b y G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
10

P e r h a p s i t i s a p p r o p ri a t e t h a t m y l e a r n e d c o l l e a g u e s a d d r e s s
y o u o n t h e p o st p o n e m e n t a n d a f t e r t h a t w i t h y o u r l e a v e I w i l l
make

c e rt a i n

s u b m i s si o n s

to

you

with

regard

to

that

a p p l i ca t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w i t h w h a t w e a r e s u p p o se d t o d o

today?
A D V W E N T Z E L : To d a y w e h a v e t h r e e w i t n e s se s w h o a re se t
down.

Th e f i r st i s C o l o n e l M h l o n g o .

T h e s e c o n d i s Te r e n c e

J o u b e rt a n d t h e t h i rd i s E d w a r d Z u m a .

I f – I ca n – i f y o u

w o u l d l i k e m e t o d e a l w i t h a l l t h r e e a t t h i s st a g e I w i l l o r
20

w o u l d yo u l i k e t o d e a l w i t h t h e f i r st d e a l w i t h t h i s a p p l i c a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s o t e l l m e w h a t i s – w h a t i s t h e p o si t i o n
with them?
A D V W E N T Z E L : W i t h t h e o t h e r w i t n e s se s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h t h e o n e s y o u h a ve m e n t i o n e d .
ADV WENTZEL:

Ye s.

With regard to Colonel Mhlongo he
Page 3 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
h a s b r o u g h t a n a p p l i c a t i o n w h i ch w e w i l l d e a l w i t h .

I can

a d d r e s s y o u o n t h e b a c k g r o u n d t o h i s e vi d e n ce j u st f o r t h e
p u r p o s e s o f p u b l i c a n d u n d e r st a n d i n g w h a t h i s e vi d e n ce i s
about.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o I u n d e r st a n d t h e c o n t e xt .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u st w a n t t o – y o u t o a d d r e s s m e o n w h a t
is going to happen – what is the plan about those three
w i t n e s s e s?
10

ADV WENTZEL:

So the plan about the application for a

p o st p o n e m e n t i s t h e a t t i t u d e o f t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s .
that that application should be granted.

It is

Although I would

like to address you on the issues that have been raised in
t h e a ff i d a vi t .

J u st t o p l a c e o n re c o r d w h a t h a s t r a n sp i r e d

b e t w e e n t h e c o m m i s si o n a n d M r M h l o n g o ’s a t t o r n e y s.

But

a f t e r d i s c u s si o n w i t h t h e m i t i s f e l t t h a t t h e r e a r e a s p e ct s
t h a t m e ri t a p o st p o n e m e n t a n d t h e re a s o n s f o r t h a t a re t h a t
a ff i d a vi t s h a ve c o m e i n l a t e .

The second is that one of the

m a i n a s p e ct s t h a t i n r e s p e ct o f w h i c h M r M h l o n g o w a s
20

i m p l i c a t e d w a s t h a t a p e r so n c a l l e d Te r e n c e J o u b e rt h a d
deposed

to

an

a ff i d a vi t

a n n e xe d

to

General

Booysens’

a ff i d a vi t i n w h i c h h e h a d st a t e d t h a t h e h a d b e e n a p p r o a ch e d
b y C o l o n e l M h l o n g o i n o r d e r t o d i g u p d i rt o n A d v o ca t e
Nxanana.
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l y o u - y o u a r e n o w g o i n g i n t o t h e –
Page 4 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
i n t o a s p e ct s o f t h e p o st p o n e m e n t a p p l i c a t i o n .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t yo u w a n t e d t o d o t h a t l a t e r?
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s I a m j u st i n d i c a t i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: I wanted you to tell me.
A D V W E N T Z E L : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Who is – what are your plans about the

t h r e e w i t n e s se s t h a t i s a l l I w a n t e d t o h e a r.
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s. I n r e s p e ct o f t h e s e c o n d w i t n e s s w h o
10

i s M r J o u b e rt w h a t h a s t r a n s p i re d C h a i r i s t h a t h e d e p o s e d
t o – w h i c h i s a l s o re l a t e d t o C o l o n e l Mh l o n g o ’s a ff i d a vi t . H e
d e p o s e d t o a n a ff i d a vi t i n s u p p o rt o f a n a ff i d a vi t d e p o se d t o
by General Booysen.

I n t h a t a ff i d a vi t h e i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e

h a d b e e n a p p ro a c h e d b y M r – C o l o n e l M h l o n g o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

N o y o u a r e g o i n g i n t o t h e m e r i t s.

I

w a n t e d y o u t o s a y s o a n d s o w i l l t e st i f y, s o a n d s o w i l l
t e st i f y, s o a n d s o w i l l n o t t e st i f y.
ADV WENTZEL: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n d e a l w i t h t h e r e a s o n s l a t e r.
20

A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

If they have – if anybody is not going to

t e st i f y.
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a i r. T h e l o n g a n d s h o rt i s
t h a t M r J o u b e rt w i l l n o t t e st i f y t o d a y b u t E d w a r d Z u m a w i l l
t e st i f y.
Page 5 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
CHAIRPERSON:

Let

me

hear

the

–

Mr

M h l o n g o ’s

a p p l i ca t i o n . Ye s. J u st p l a c e y o u r s e l f o n r e c o r d a g a i n .
A D V M O N A L A : T h a n k y o u . C h a i r p e r s o n I a m M o n a l a ME . I
a m i n st r u ct e d b y M a ri n g a A t t o r n e y s a n d w e b o t h a p p e a r f o r
Colonel Mhlongo.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MONALA:

W h o i s t h e n s c h e d u l e d t o g i ve t e st i m o n y

t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
10

ADV

MONALA:

And

we

have

si n c e

then

prepared

an

a p p l i ca t i o n f o r t h e p o st p o n e m e n t o f h i s t e st i m o n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MONALA:

A n d i f yo u p e rm i t m e t h e n C h a i r, I w i l l t a k e

you through the application.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV

MONALA:

Chairperson

the

st a rt i n g

point

is

that

C o l o n e l Mh l o n g o h a s g i v e n a n o t i c e i n t e r m s o f R u l e 3
i n f o r m i n g h i m t h a t h e w a s i m p l i c a t e d b y G e n e ra l – y e s M a j o r
General Booysen.
20

Now

he

was

referred

s p e ci f i c a l l y

I

believe

to

p a r a g ra p h 4 2 u p u n t i l p a r a g ra p h 4 6 o f B o o y s e n s ’ a ff i d a vi t
a n d t h e re t h e r e a r o s e t w o i s s u e s.
The

f i r st

was

that

there

is

a

recording

which

e vi d e n c e s w r o n g d o i n g o n t h e p a rt o f M h l o n g o a n d t h e o t h e r
p a rt w a s t h a t t h e re i s a l s o a n a ff i d a vi t t h a t e vi d e n c e s h i s
Page 6 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
w r o n g d o i n g o n h i s p a rt .

S o t h e re w e re t w o c o m p l a i n t s t h a t

h e h a d t h e n t o a d d r e s s.
In dealing with the complaints he asked then to
re c e i v e a c o p y o f t h i s re c o r d i n g w h i c h i s m e n t i o n e d a s t h e
f i r st c o m p l a i n t . A n d w e h a v e si n c e t h e n b e e n t o l d t h a t e v e n
i f t h a t re c o r d i n g i s t o b e g i v e n , w e w o u l d re q u i r e s p e ci f i c
e q u i p m e n t i n o r d e r f o r u s t o b e a b l e t o l i st e n t o t h a t . B u t w e
h a ve n o w b e e n t o l d t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t s a r e b e i n g p u t i n p l a c e
t o e n a b l e u s t o l i st e n t o t h a t r e c o r d i n g .
10

So that would then

a d d r e s s t h e f i r st c o m p l a i n t t h a t w e h a v e i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e
audio that is the audio equipment.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n w a s t h e f i r st r e q u e st m a d e f o r t h a t

re c o r d i n g ?
ADV MONALA:

So Chairperson what you would have noted

i s t h a t w h e n t h e a ff i d a vi t w a s p r e s e n t e d t h a t i s t h e f i r st
a ff i d a vi t a n a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a vi t w a s p u t u p a n d a f t e r t h e
a n s w e ri n g a ff i d a vi t w a s p u t u p a r e p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t f o l l o w e d .
N o w w h e n w e r e c e i v e d t h e r e p l yi n g a ff i d a vi t w e t h e n
re s p o n d e d w i t h a su p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t a n d i t i s i n t h a t
20

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t t h a t w e t h e n m e n t i o n e d t h a t w e
re q u i r e t o b e p l a c e d i n p o s s e s si o n o f t h o se r e c o rd i n g s. I a m
t r yi n g C h a i rp e r s o n t o g e t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V M O N A L A : T h e d a t e o f t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t b u t I
c a n a s s u r e yo u C h a i r p e r so n i t i s s o m e t i m e i n S e p t e m b e r.
Page 7 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
C H A I R P E R S O N : L a st y e a r ?
A D V M O N A L A : S e p t e m b e r l a st y e a r ye s 2 0 1 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MONALA:

So that was then put in and there was

correspondence all along.
CHAIRPERSON: After that?
ADV MONALA: After that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MONALA:
10

T h e l a t e st p a rt o f t h a t co r re s p o n d e n c e

c o n cl u d e d o n t h e 2 3 r d T h u r s d a y l a st w e e k – 2 3 J u l y 2 0 2 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MONALA: And it was then that we were told that even
i f w e w e r e t o b e g i v e n t h a t yo u w i l l n o t b e a b l e t o l i st e n t o i t
b e ca u s e i t re q u i r e s s p e ci f i c e q u i p m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t i s n o w r e c e n t l y?
A D V M O N A L A : Ye s. We w e r e t o l d t h e n r e c e n t l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MONALA:
c o n ce r n e d .

20

S o t h a t i s i n so f a r a s t h a t c o m p l a i n t i s

But related to that complaint Chairperson there

w o u l d h a v e b e e n t w o o t h e r a ff i d a vi t s t h a t t h e n f o l l o w e d .
T h a t i s t h e a ff i d a vi t s o f P a d a y a c h i I b e l i e v e i t i s – j a i t i s
General Padayachi.

Ye s s o t h o s e t w o a ff i d a vi t s t h e o n e

gives somewhat of an account of what is being said in those
re c o r d i n g s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
Page 8 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
ADV MONALA:

H o w e v e r, w e a r e o f t h e vi e w t h a t w h a t i s

st a t e d t h e r e i t i s n o t n e c e s s a ri l y a v e r b a t i m a c c o u n t o f w h a t
t ra n s p i r e d t h e r e .

A n d w e w a n t t o a s c e rt a i n o u r s e l v e s a s t o

w h e t h e r t h a t w h i c h i s b e i n g s a i d i s e x a ct l y a s i t a p p e a r s f r o m
t h e r e co r d i n g .

A n d t h a t a ff i d a vi t C h a i r w a s t h e n a v a i l e d I

b e l i e ve o n t h e 1 0 t h o r t h e 9 t h J u l y 2 0 2 0 . T h a t i s t h e f i r st l e g
o f t h e c o m p l a i n t . T h a t i s t h e b a si s f o r o u r p o st p o n e m e n t .
T h e s e c o n d l e g p e rt a i n s t o a n a ff i d a vi t o f Te r e n ce
J o u b e rt .
10

W h a t h a s h a p p e n e d h e r e C h a i r p e r s o n i n t h e f i r st

a ff i d a vi t w h i c h w a s g i ve n t h e r e w a s a n a ff i d a vi t a t t a c h e d I
b e l i e ve i t i s t h e a ff i d a vi t d a t i n g 2 0 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MONALA:

We r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t a l l e g a t i o n a n d p u t u p

a n a ff i d a vi t o f 2 0 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w a s l a st y e a r ?
A D V M O N A L A : Ye s t h a t i s …
CHAIRPERSON:

When you responded and put up a 2016

a ff i d a vi t .
A D V M O N A L A : Ye s i n d e e d i t w a s l a st ye a r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV MONALA:

S o w h e n w e p u t u p t h a t 2 0 1 6 a ff i d a vi t w e

t h e n s a i d a s f a r a s w e a r e a w a r e t h e re i s a n a ff i d a vi t t h a t
s a y s t h a t f i r st a ff i d a vi t i s w r o n g a n d t h a t i s a f o rg e r y a n d a l l
o f t h o s e t h i n g s.
S o w e t h e n p r o c e e d e d w i t h t h e m a t t e r o n t h e b a si s
Page 9 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
t h a t t h e r e i s n o f i r st a ff i d a vi t .

I n f a ct , t h e c o rr e ct p o si t i o n i s

a s s e t o u t i n t h e s e c o n d a ff i d a vi t . N o w re c e n t l y C h a i rp e r s o n
Te r e n ce J o u b e rt h a s c h a n g e d t o – h e h a s d e p o s e d t o a t h i r d
a ff i d a vi t a n d t h a t a ff i d a vi t w e r e c e i v e d o n S u n d a y t h i s i s t h e
2 6 Ju l y. We r e c e i v e d t h a t a ff i d a v i t o n S u n d a y.
I n t h i s t h i r d a ff i d a vi t h e n o w r e s u s ci t a t e s t h e f i r st
a ff i d a vi t a n d h e s a y s t h e se c o n d a ff i d a vi t w a s w r o n g a n d t h a t
i s t h e a ff i d a vi t o n w h i c h w e t h e n r e l i e d a l l a l o n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V M O N A L A : S o t h e s u m t o t a l C h a i r p e r so n o f a l l o f t h i s i s
t h a t w e n e e d t o r e c o n s i d e r o u r p o si t i o n i n r e l a t i o n t o t h o s e
o p t i o n s t h a t a r e a v a i l a b l e i n t e rm s o f R u l e 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M O N A L A : A n d d e ci d e w h e t h e r o r n o t t h i s w o u l d b e t h e
b e st w a y o r t h a t w o u l d b e t h e b e st w a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV MONALA:

And for that purpose, Chair we require a

p o st p o n e m e n t i n o r d e r t o d e a l w i t h t h o se a s p e ct s.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay no that is fine.
20

ADV MONALA: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON:
c o m m i s si o n

not

Ye s
give

why
the

–

why

r e co r d i n g

was

–

much

why
e a rl i e r

did
to

the
Mr

M h l o n g o ? S w i t c h o n t h e m i cr o p h o n e .
ADV WENTZEL:

Chair with respect as was indicated by my

learned colleague there was a lot of correspondence that
Page 10 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
followed

that

f i r st

re q u e st .

What

the

c o m m i s si o n

f i r st

t h o u g h t w a s re q u e st e d w a s t h e r e c o r d i n g t h a t w a s p l a y e d
d u ri n g t h e e vi d e n c e o f C o l o n e l B o o y se n .

And there was

correspondence stating that.
T h e n t h e i s s u e o f t h e r e c o r d i n g o f t h e t r a n s cri p t – I
mean the recordings – the 70 recordings those recordings
w e re n e v e r i n t h e p o s s e s si o n o f t h e c o m m i s si o n .
c o m m i s si o n h a s n e v e r h a d t h e m .
Colonel
10

Padayachi

p r o vi d e d

The

Summons was issued and
those

r e c o rd i n g s

to

the

c o m m i s si o n y e st e rd a y.
For

the

f i r st

time

the

c o m m i s si o n

saw

c e rt a i n

t ra n s c ri p t s r e l a t i n g t o C o l o n e l M h l o n g o r e l a t i n g t o t h o se
re c o r d i n g s.

I t i s o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g t h a t t h e r e a r e v e r y st r i ct

re q u i r e m e n t s w i t h re g a rd t o t h e e vi d e n c e c h a i n o f t h o se
re c o r d i n g s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t r e c o r d i n g t h a t y o u t a l ki n g a b o u t i s t h e
o n e t h a t G e n e ra l B o o y s e n t e st i f i e d a b o u t , i s i t n o t ?
ADV WENTZEL:

T h a t i s t h e r e c o r d i n g t h a t t h e c o m m i s si o n

i n i t i a l l y t h o u g h t w a s b e i n g re q u e st e d .
20

W h e n i t t h e n b e ca m e

a p p a r e n t t h a t t h e re c o r d i n g t h a t w a s r e q u e st e d i s t h e a ct u a l
A ct 7 0 r e c o rd i n g s d o n e b y C o l o n e l P a d a y a c h i .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no.
ADV

WENTZEL:

The

commission

has

never

p o s se s s i o n o f t h o s e r e c o rd i n g s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o l e t u s g e t cl a ri f i ca t i o n .
Page 11 of 36

been

in

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
Booysen

if

I

D u ri n g

recall

his

c o r r e ct l y

e vi d e n c e
t e st i f i e d

Major
about

G e n e ra l
a

c e rt a i n

re c o r d i n g .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:
Mhlongo

I a m a s ki n g w h e t h e r t h e r e co r d i n g t h a t M r

asked for is the

recording that

Major General

B o o y s e n t e st i f i e d a b o u t .
A D V W E N T Z E L : C h a i r i f y o u a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e r e c o r d i n g
10

o n t h e t e l e p h o n e d o n e b y Te r e n c e J o u b e rt t h a t r e c o r d i n g w a s
p r o vi d e d . I t w a s p r o vi d e d p u r s u a n t t o a R u l e 3 . 3 N o t i c e .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no. no.
A D V W E N T Z E L : A n d i t w a s su b s e q u e n t l y p r o vi d e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I a m n o t t a l ki n g a b o u t t h a t o n e .

Maybe – it may be that Major General Booysen talked –
t e st i f i e d a b o u t t w o r e c o rd i n g s.
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l I t h i n k b o t h a re i m p o rt a n t .
A D V W E N T Z E L : C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e i s t h e r e c o r d i n g h e t e st i f i e d t h e o n e

t h a t I r e m e m b e r w e l l h e t e st i f i e d a b o u t i s t h e o n e re l a t i n g t o
o r c o n n e ct e d w i t h t h e – t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n o f M r P a n d a y.
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t – t h a t w a s d o n e i n t e r m s o f s o m e

st a t u t o r y p r o vi si o n s.
Page 12 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I s t h a t t h e o n e t h a t M r M h l o n g o a s ke d
for?
ADV WENTZEL:

We l l i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h a t w a s r e q u e st e d a t

a l a t e r st a g e a n d i t a r o s e i n t h e s e ci r c u m st a n c e s C h a i r.
What

o c c u r re d

is

that

in

f a ct

the

a ff i d a vi t

of

Colonel

P a d a y a ch i a n n e x e d t o B o o y s e n s’ a ff i d a vi t d i d n o t d e a l a t a l l
w i t h C o l o n e l M h l o n g o ’s e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V W E N T Z E L : W h a t o c c u rr e d i s t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay which recording does Mr – did Mr

M h l o n g o a s k e d f o r?

T h a t i s w h a t I a m t r yi n g t o – I w a n t t o

i d e n t i f y i t f i r st .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e k n o w w h a t w e t a l ki n g a b o u t .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t w a s t h a t r e c o r d i n g b u t C h a i r y o u w i l l
re m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s w h i ch r e c o r d i n g ?
A D V W E N T Z E L : I t w a s t h e A ct 7 0 r e c o r d i n g .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay yes now we know what you talk

about. That is…
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t

one

Major

t e st i f y a b o u t t h a t I re c a l l .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
Page 13 of 36

General

Booysen

did

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV

WENTZEL:

Now

what

then

o c c u rr e d

is

General

B o o y s e n t e st i f i e d t h i s i s w h a t w a s t o l d t o m e b y C o l o n e l
P a d a y a ch i w h o w a s t h e p e r s o n i n c h a r g e o f t h e A ct 7 0
i n t e r c e p t i o n s.
the

H e w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o a ct u a l l y l i st e n e d t o

r e c o rd i n g s.

So

yo u

will

remember

Chair

that

the

re s p o n s e t h a t t h e n c a m e w a s I d o n o t n e e d t o d e a l w i t h t h i s
b e ca u s e i t i s h e a r s a y. d o n o t n e e d t o d e a l w i t h t h i s b e c a u s e
i t i s h e a r s a y.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t r e s p o n s e a r e y o u t a l ki n g a b o u t ?

Why would I know that response?
ADV WENTZEL:

Oh Chair in the application to adduce

e vi d e n c e i t – a n d i n f a ct t h e r e w a s n o t a n a p p l i c a t i o n
b r o u g h t b y C o l o n e l M h l o n g o t o a d d u ce e v i d e n c e .

It was an

a p p l i ca t i o n i n t e r m s o f w h i c h h e d e p o s e d t o a n a ff i d a vi t i n
w h i c h h e sa i d , I w o u l d l i k e t o j u st p l a c e t h i s a ff i d a vi t b e f o r e
t h e c o m m i s si o n a n d h e d i d n o t a s k t h a t h e a ct u a l l y t e st i f y
b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n . T h a t w a s a n i s s u e t h a t t h e n a r o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
20

ADV WENTZEL: When this matter was set down.
CHAIRPERSON:

M s We n t z e l .

M s We n t z e l y o u a r e a l l o v e r

the place.
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m t r yi n g t o m a k e s u r e w e a r e o n t h e

same page.
Page 14 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought we have identified what recording
y o u a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u se e M r M h l o n g o ’s a p p l i c a t i o n f o r a

p o st p o n e m e n t s e e m s t o b e b a s e d o n t w o t h i n g s.
1 . T h a t h e a s k e d f o r a re c o r d i n g f o r t h e r e co r d i n g q u i t e
some time back and was only told recently that it is
a v a i l a b l e b u t t h e ce rt a i n e q u i p m e n t w o u l d b e n e e d e d
10

f o r h i m t o b e a b l e t o l i st e n t o i t .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I a m t r y i n g t o e st a b l i sh w h i c h r e c o r d i n g
a r e w e t a l ki n g a b o u t ?
A D V W E N T Z E L : We a re n o w t a l ki n g a b o u t .
CHAIRPERSON:

And from what you have said it is the

re c o r d i n g t h a t M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n s s p o k e a b o u t r e l a t i n g
t o t h e i n t e r c e p t i o n o f t e l e p h o n e s.
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t ri g h t ?
20

A D V W E N T Z E L : T h a t i s c o r r e ct .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. N o w w h y – w h y w a s i t n o t s u p p l i e d t o
Mr Mhlongo all along?
A D V W E N T Z E L : C h a i r b e c a u s e t h o s e r e co r d i n g s h a v e n e v e r
b e e n i n t h e p o s s e s si o n o f t h e c o m m i s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w h y d i d t h e c o m m i s si o n n o t a s k f o r
Page 15 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
them?
ADV WENTZEL:

C h a i r a s I u n d e r st a n d i t t h o s e r e c o r d i n g s

c a n n o t b e g i v e n t o t h e c o m m i s si o n .

They cannot be handed

o v e r t o t h e c o m m i s si o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h a ve t h e y n o t b e e n g i v e n n o w ?
ADV WENTZEL: No Chair they are given to us in a reserved
m a n n e r a n d t h e m a n n e r i n w h i ch t h e y a r e p r o vi d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t h i n g i s t h e y c o u l d h a ve b e e n g i v e n i n
a r e s e r ve d m a n n e r a l o n g t i m e a g o .
10

ADV WENTZEL:

Chair that might be.

But it was not

a n t i ci p a t e d w h a t – w h a t h a d o c c u r re d a n d t h a t i s w h y I j u st
w o u l d l i k e t o g i v e y o u so m e b a c k g r o u n d .
CHAIRPERSON: No I do not want a long background.
ADV WENTZEL: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e t w o i s s u e s. Mr M h l o n g o s e e k s a
p o st p o n e m e n t

because

despite

h a vi n g

asked

for

re c o r d i n g m a n y m o n t h s a g o t h a t w a s n o t g i v e n t o h i m .
that is why I want to know why was that not done?

the
So

Because

w e a r e n o w f a c e d w i t h a si t u a t i o n w h e r e t h e r e m u st b e a
20

p o st p o n e m e n t a n d y e t a l r e a d y l a s t ye a r, h e h a d i n d i c a t e d
f ro m w h a t I u n d e r st a n d t h a t h e – h e n e e d e d t h i s.

And now

h i s a p p l i c a t i o n i f t h i s w a s i n d i c a t e d i n S e p t e m b e r l a st y e a r
that means it has been about nine months or ten, I am not
sure.

I t h a s b e e n a b o u t n i n e m o n t h s.

S o m y q u e s t i o n i s,

w h y d i d t h e c o m m i s si o n n o t m a k e s u r e t h a t h e g o t t h i s o n
Page 16 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
time?
ADV WENTZEL:
b e ca u s e

even

P a d a y a ch i

to

C h a i r t h e a n s w e r t o t h i s i s i n f a c t si m p l e
if

the

bring

c o m m i s si o n
his

recording

re c o r d i n g t o t h e c o m m i s si o n .

had
he

summons
cannot

Colonel

give

that

T h e c o m m i s si o n c a n n o t p l a y

that recording.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d – w h a t – w h a t d i d t h e c o m m i s si o n d o

t o t r y a n d g e t t h e re c o r d i n g ?
A D V W E N T Z E L : We l l t o b e h o n e st C h a i r w h a t o c c u r re d w a s
10

i n p r e p a ri n g f o r t h e e vi d e n c e o f C o l o n e l M h l o n g o a t t h a t
st a g e t h e – t h e i s s u e t h a t h e h a d r a i se d w a s, y o u d o n o t
need

to

l i st e n

to

what

P a d a y a ch i t o l d h i m .

Colonel

W h y?

Booysen

sa y s

Colonel

B e ca u s e i t i s h e a r s a y.

As a

re s u l t o f t h a t st e p s w e r e t h e n t a k e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l i f M a j o r G e n e r a l – M a j o r G e n e r a l

B o o y s e n s sa y s I a m a w a r e o f a c e rt a i n r e c o rd i n g .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t r e c o r d i n g c o n t a i n s a co n v e r s a t i o n
t h a t i s r e l e v a n t t o t h e w o r k o f t h e c o m m i s si o n .
20

Why should

t h e c o m m i s si o n n o t – s h o u l d t h e c o m m i s si o n n o t s a y, l e t u s
t a k e st e p s t o g e t t h a t r e c o r d i n g .
ADV WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a i r.

I a p p r e ci a t e t h a t p o i n t .

What I

h a ve – c a n o n l y s a y t o y o u C h a i r i s I d i d n o t l e a d t h e
e vi d e n c e o f C o l o n e l B o o y s e n .

I was not involved in it and it

w a s o n l y i n t h e c o u r s e o f p r e p a r a t i o n o f C o l o n e l M h l o n g o ’s
Page 17 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
e vi d e n c e t h a t t h i s i s s u e a r o s e a n d st e p s w e r e t h e n t a k e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

But

yo u

h a ve

been

i n vo l ve d

in

Law

E n f o r ce m e n t f o r q u i t e so m e t i m e i s i t n o t ?
A D V W E N T Z E L : I w a s b u t C o l o n e l B o o y s e n s’ w a s l e d b e f o r e
I j o i n e d t h e co m m i s si o n .

A n d t o b e h o n e st C h a i r i t – I n

p r e p a ri n g f o r t h i s t h e f i r st t h i n g t h a t o c cu r re d t o m e i s w e
n e e d t o g e t t h a t r e c o r d i n g a n d st e p s w e r e t h e n i m m e d i a t e l y
taken.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja but…
10

A D V W E N T Z E L : To g e t t h a t re c o r d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

But

it

happens

late

it

should

have

happened a long time ago and in which case we would not
b e h a vi n g t o p o st p o n e a n d l o s e a d a y. We d o n o t h a v e m u ch
t i m e a s a c o m m i s si o n .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a i r I …
CHAIRPERSON:
we

use

all

the

A n d t h e f i r st p e o p l e w h o m u st m a k e s u r e
time

we

have

are

ourselves

as

the

c o m m i s si o n . T h e l e g a l t e a m h a s g o t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e s e
things are looked at long in advance before – before the date
20

o f h e a ri n g .

A s s o o n a s s o m e a ff i d a vi t co m e s i n , I m e a n

t h e r e a r e w o r k st r e a m s i n t h e co m m i s si o n . T h e r e i s t h e L a w
E n f o r ce m e n t A g e n c y. T h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o a re d e d i c a t e d t o
t h a t i n cl u d i n g m e m b e r s o f t h e l e g a l t e a m . A n d I h a v e a l w a y s
s a i d t h e i n ve st i g a t i o n s m u st b e g u i d e d a n d d i r e ct e d b y t h e
legal team.
Page 18 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s I u n d e r st a n d .
CHAIRPERSON:
i n v e st i g a t o r s.

Which means I am not going to blame the
T h e l e g a l t e a m a re s u p p o s e d t o l o o k a t

a ff i d a vi t s a n d s a y, t h i s i s w h a t w e n e e d .

This is what we

n e e d . T h i s w i t n e s s m u st b e i n t e r vi e w e d a n d s o o n .

We a re

g o i n g t o n e e d t h a t . We a re g o i n g t o n e e d t h a t re c o r d i n g a n d
d r i ve t h e p r o c e s s. A n d t h e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o k n o w w h a t w i l l
b e a c c e p t a b l e l e g a l l y a t t h e h e a ri n g i n t e r m s o f e vi d e n ce .
A n d t h e n t h e – t h e a ff i d a vi t t h a t – o f M r J o u b e rt b e ca u s e
10

t h e y re l y o n t w o t h i n g s.

I t i s t h e f a ct t h a t t h e y w e re n o t

g i v e n t h e re c o r d i n g .
2 . T h a t t h e y o n l y w e r e g i v e n t h e a ff i d a vi t – t h e l a t e st
a ff i d a vi t o f M r J o u b e rt o n S u n d a y.
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h y w a s t h a t a ff i d a vi t o n l y o b t a i n e d s o

re c e n t l y o r g i v e n t o t h e m s o r e c e n t l y ?
ADV

WENTZEL:

Chair

at

all

times

Mr

J o u b e rt

was

re p r e s e n t e d b y a n a t t o r n e y. T h e re w a s c o m m u n i c a t i o n –
c o n st a n t co m m u n i c a t i o n b e t w e e n t h e c o m m i s si o n a n d t h a t
20

a t t o r n e y.

I t w a s o n l y a s I u n d e r st a n d i t o n F r i d a y o r

S a t u rd a y m o r n i n g t h a t t h e a ff i d a vi t w a s p ro v i d e d t o t h e
c o m m i s si o n .

O n c e i t w a s p r o vi d e d st e p s w e re i m m e d i a t e l y

t a k e n t o w ri t e a l e t t e r t o C o l o n e l – t o M r M h l o n g o ’s a t t o r n e y s
a n d e n cl o s e d t h a t a ff i d a vi t .

S o w i t h r e s p e ct C h a i r t h a t w a s

n o t a n i s s u e t h a t w a s w i t h i n t h e r e a l m o f t h e c o m m i s si o n .
Page 19 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
W h a t t h e n t r a n s p i re d i s t h a t h a vi n g h a d t h a t a ff i d a vi t .
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l I g u e s s – I g u e s s t h a t w i t h r e g a r d t o

M r J o u b e rt t h e c o m m i s si o n m a y h a v e b e e n c o n t e n t t h a t t h e r e
a r e t w o a ff i d a vi t s d e p o s e d t o b y h i m . O n e r e l i e d u p o n b y M r
N x a n a n a i n h i s e vi d e n c e a n o t h e r o n e r e l i e d u p o n b y M r
M h l o n g o i n h i s a ff i d a vi t .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

the

c o m m i s si o n

had

made

a r r a n g e m e n t s t o – f o r t h e p e r s o n w h o a d m i n i st e r e d t h e o a t h
10

t o Mr J o u b e rt i n r e g a r d t o t h e f i r st a ff i d a vi t t o c o m e a n d g i v e
e vi d e n c e t o s a y h e k n o w s M r J o u b e rt a n d h e t o o k h i s o a t h
f re e l y a n d v o l u n t a r i l y i n r e g a r d t o t h e f i r st a ff i d a vi t .

And

t h e n M r J o u b e rt w a s g o i n g t o h a ve t o e x p l a i n o n t h e w i t n e s s
st a n d w h y t h e r e w a s a s e c o n d a ff i d a vi t .
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o f r o m t h e c o m m i s si o n ’s si d e y o u – t h e r e

m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a n a r ra n g e m e n t f o r a n a ff i d a vi t .

Mr

J o u b e rt w o u l d h a v e t o e xp l a i n i n t h e w i t n e s s st a n d a b o u t
h o w t h e s e c o n d a ff i d a vi t ca m e a b o u t .
20

ADV WENTZEL:

Ye s b u t t h e f a ct o f t h e m a t t e r i s t h a t

t h r o u g h h i s a t t o r n e y t h e c o m m i s si o n d i d r e ce i v e t h e t h i r d
a ff i d a vi t a n d i n t h a t a ff i d a vi t , h e sa y s, m y s e c o n d a ff i d a vi t i s
n o t c o r r e ct a n d m y f i r st a ff i d a v i t i s c o r re ct .
that

Chair

has

had

c o m m u n i ca t i o n

He then after

with the

c o m m i s si o n

s a yi n g t h i s t h i r d a ff i d a vi t h e h a s n o w d e p o s e d t o i s a n
Page 20 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
a ff i d a vi t t h a t w a s n o t i n a c co r d a n ce w i t h h i s a t t o r n e y’s
i n st r u ct i o n s.

A s I u n d e r st a n d i t h e st i l l s a y s t h a t t h e f i r st

a ff i d a vi t i s c o r r e ct b u t t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n a s p e ct s i n i t t h a t h e
does not like.

His attorney has now withdrawn and we are

n o w f a c e d w i t h h i m n o w h a vi n g t o e x p l a i n t h i s i s su e b e f o re
t h e c o m m i s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a w e l l h e w i l l h a ve t o e x p l a i n .

I think

w h a t w i l l b e n e c e s s a r y i s t h a t a d a t e w i l l h a ve t o b e
d e t e r m i n e d w h e n Mr Jo u b e rt m u st t a k e t h e w i t n e s s st a n d .
10

He can explain whatever he wants to explain on the witness
st a n d .

M r M h l o n g o ’s l a w y e r s w i l l a d vi s e Mr M h l o n g o a b o u t

w h e t h e r i t i s n e c e s s a r y t o f i l e a n y r e s p o n s e t o t h a t a ff i d a vi t
b u t I t h i n k w h a t w i l l b e i m p o rt a n t t o f i x a d a t e l e t M r J o u b e rt
take the witness stand and – and explain himself.
ADV WENTZEL: And explain.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l ri g h t t h a t i s f i n e . I a m g oi n g t o p o st p o n e
t h e h e a ri n g o f M r M h l o n g o ’s e v i d e n ce t o a d a t e t o b e
20

d e t e r m i n e d . A n d i f t h e y – i f M r M h l o n g o e l e ct s t o r e s p o n d t o
t h a t a ff i d a vi t w e w i l l se e w h e n t h a t h a p p e n s b u t o t h e r w i s e
the

date

determined.

for

Mr

M h l o n g o ’s

The

application

n e xt

a p p e a r a n ce

brought

by

will

be

Mr or Colonel

M h l o n g o f o r t h e p o st p o n e m e n t o f t h e h e a ri n g o f h i s e vi d e n ce
i s g ra n t e d a n d a d a t e w i l l b e d e t e r m i n e d f o r h i m t o a p p e a r
Page 21 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n i n d u e c o u r s e .
A D V W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . O k a y a l ri g h t .
ADV

WENTZEL:

Chair

if

–

the

matter

by

–

if

the

p r o c e e d i n g s m i g h t st a n d d o w n j u st f o r t e n m i n u t e s s o I ca n
t a k e s o m e i n st r u ct i o n s f ro m W i l l i a m N i c h o l s o n a b o u t t h e
w i t n e s s w h o i s d u e t o a p p e a r M r E d w a rd Z u m a .
CHAIRPERSON:

We l l I d o n o t w a n t t o a d j o u r n .

I want you

to take one minute to talk to him and then let us continue.
10

ADV WENTZEL: Sure. Perhaps the…
CHAIRPERSON:

I think Mr Hulley wants to talk to you as

well.
ADV WENTZEL:

C h a i r p e r h a p s i f M r N i c h o l so n ca n a d d r e s s

y o u b e c a u s e h e h a s b e e n d e a l i n g w i t h t h i s.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a w e l l m a yb e l e t u s t a l k a b o u t I t h i n k M r

Hulley you want to I think – allow Mr Hulley to address me.
ADV WENTZEL: Sure. Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h e y m u st j u s t s a n i t i se .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : G o o d m o r n i n g , M r C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV HULLEY SC:

Mr C h a i r, a s t h e L e a d e r o f t h e L a w

E n f o r ce m e n t Te a m , w e t e n d e r t h r o u g h y o u r se l f t h r o u g h t h e
team for Mr Mhlongo, and of course, through the South
A f ri c a n p u b l i c.

M y si n c e r e a p o l o g i e s i n r e l a t i o n t o s o m e o f

t h e m i x - u p s t h a t h a v e o c c u rr e d .
Page 22 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
I

was

in

s p e ci f i c a l l y

dealing

with

that

p a rt i c u l a r

a p p l i ca t i o n b u t I a c c e p t f u l l r e s p o n si b i l i t y a n d I t e n d e r m y
si n c e r e a p o l o g i e s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

We w i l l ce rt a i n l y i n v e st i g a t e t h e m a t t e r

f u rt h e r a n d . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k, b ri n g t h e m i c a l i t t l e b i t cl o s e r t o

y o u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n m e C h a i r.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

. . . a s yo u r v o i c e i s n o t a s a u d i b l e a s i t

should be.
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a n k yo u , M r C h a i r.

si n c e r e l y a p o l o g i s e .

As I have said, I

T h a t I w i l l i n v e st i g a t e t h e m a t t e r a n d I

w i l l p l a c e a f u l l r e p o rt b e f o r e M r C h a i r. J u st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON:

I m u st s a y t h a t o f c o u r se , y o u j o i n e d t h e

C o m m i s si o n l a t e r. A s s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s h a p p e n e d y o u w e re
not here but ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

I a c c e p t t h e r e s p o n si b i l i t y f o r t h a t Mr

C h a i r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Mr C h a i r, j u st o n e m a t t e r t h a t h a s. . . a n d I
f e a r t h a t M s We n t z e l m a y h a v e s a i d s o m e t h i n g w h i c h m i g h t
h a ve g i ve n t h e i n c o r r e ct i m p r e s si o n a n d I j u st w a n t e d h e r,
p e r h a p s t h r o u g h h e r s e l f , t o h a v e c o r re ct e d i t .
CHAIRPERSON: H’m.
Page 23 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
ADV HULLEY SC:

I t m u st b e e m p h a s i se d t h a t w e d o n o t

h a ve . . . t h e C o m m i s si o n d o e s n o t h a v e t h e r e co r d i n g i n
re s p e ct o f t h a t a n d d a t e o f d i s cu s si o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV HULLEY SC:

We st i l l d o n o t h a ve t h e r e c o rd i n g .

We

h a ve l i st e n e d t o t h e r e c o r d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

We c a n n o t o b t a i n t h e r e co r d i n g .

What

w e h a v e m a n a g e d t o g e t h o l d o f m o st r e c e n t l y i s si m p l y t h e
10

t ra n s c ri p t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d t h a t i s w h a t w i l l b e m a d e a va i l a b l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV HULLEY SC: What we can make available to the other
si d e , i s t h e o p p o rt u n i t y t o l i st e n t o t h a t r e c o r d i n g b u t t h e
re c o r d i n g i t s e l f , e v e n i f w e h a d i t a n d e v e n i f w e m a d e i t
a v a i l a b l e t o t h e o t h e r si d e , w h i c h a s I u n d e r st a n d i t , w e c a n
obtain but even if we did that, they would not be able to
l i st e n t o i t b e c a u s e i t i s a n e n c r y p t e d . . . o n e re q u i r e s s p e ci f i c

20

m a c h i n e r y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV HULLEY SC:

. . . t o b e a b l e t o l i st e n t o t h e r e c o r d i n g .

S o i n t h e f i r st i n s t a n ce , w e d o n o t h a ve i t .
h a ve

it

but

we

have

l i st e n e d

to

. . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 24 of 36

it.

We st i l l d o n o t

And

I

think

this

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w d o y o u l i st e n t o i t w i t h o u t h a vi n g i t ?

[ l a u g h s]
ADV HULLEY SC:
m a c h i n e ry.

No, no.

Because we have got the

We h a v e g o t t h e p e r s o n w h o h a s t h e m a c h i n e r y

a n d w h o h a s t h e r e c o r d i n g s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s]
ADV HULLEY SC:

S o w e h a v e a t l e a st m a n a g e d t o d o t h a t .

B u t w i t h o u t t h e m a c h i n e r y. . . I su p p o s e w e ca n d i s p o s e o f t h e
p e r s o n w h o h a s t h e m a c h i n e r y b u t w e ca n n o t d i s p o s e o f t h e
10

m a c h i n e ry.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s.
ADV HULLEY SC:

We r e q u i r e t h e m a c h i n e r y i n o rd e r t o

l i st e n t o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t a ke i t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s]
ADV HULLEY SC:

That is as far as we... that is the only

p o i n t t h a t I w a n t e d t o c o rr e ct .
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

I take it, if somebody within the

C o m m i s si o n . . . i f y o u a r e a b l e t o l i st e n t o i t , a r ra n g e m e n t s
c o u l d b e m a d e f o r t h e m t o l i st e n t o i t , t o w h a t e v e r yo u
20

l i st e n e d t o i t .
ADV HULLEY SC:

T h a t i s w h a t w e h a v e c o n ve y e d t o o u r

l e a r n e d f ri e n d s.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d w e w i l l d o t h a t w a y. B u t w e w i l l a l s o
d o i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s]
Page 25 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, you will not be able to give them

a n yt h i n g o t h e r t h a n t h e t r a n s c ri p t .
A D V H U L L E Y S C : We w i l l n o t b e a b l e t o g i v e t h e m a n yt h i n g
o t h e r t h a n t h e t ra n s cr i p t . I n f a ct , w e c a n n o t e ve n a l l o w t h e m
t o m a k e a r e c o r d i n g o f t h e r e c o rd i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja, ja.

w h a t yo u h a v e h e a r d .

Okay as long as they can hear

Ja, I am sure that should not be a

problem.
A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

No, that is fine.

Thank you.

And

t h e n s o m e b o d y w a s m u st t a l k t o m e a b o u t t h e w i t n e s s.
A D V W I L LI A M N I C H O L S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g , M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr Nicholson.
ADV NICHOLSON:

M r C h a i r, t h e . . . a w i t n e s s w h o w o u l d

h a ve a l s o a p p e a r e d t o d a y i s C a p t a i n E d w a rd Z u m a . C a p t a i n
E d w a r d Z u m a i s a re t i r e d m e m b e r o f t h e H AW K S .
When we managed to get hold of him about three weeks
a g o , I p e r s o n a l l y s p o ke t o h i m a n d h e c o n v e y e d t o m e t h a t
h i s w i f e h a s co n t r a ct e d C O V I D o r s o m e b o d y i n h i s h o u s e h o l d
20

c o n t r a ct e d C O V I D .

H e i s d i sp l a yi n g a l l t h e s ym p t o m s h e

w e n t f o r a l l t h e t e st s.
L a st w e e k w h e n I g o t h o l d o f h i m , h e st i l l n o t h a d h i s
t e st s r e su l t s a n d I h a v e b e e n t r yi n g t o g e t h o l d o f h i m t h i s
entire week and I cannot get hold of him.
T h e i s s u e i s, h e i s n o w r e t i r e d s o w e c a n o n l y c a l l h i m
Page 26 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
on his cell phone.

He does not even have an email.

With

re g a r d t o . . . I d i d c o n ve y t o h i m b e c a u se w i t h t h e d i s c u s si o n
w e h a d w i t h t h e D C J, w e d i d c o n v e y t o h i m t h a t h e m a y b e
a b l e t o t e st i f y r e m o t e l y.
H e s a i d h e w a s w i l l i n g t o d o t h a t b u t si n ce t h e n w h e n I
h a ve b e e n t r yi n g t o p h o n e h i m t o m a k e s t h o se a r r a n g e m e n t s,
I j u st co u l d n o t g e t h o l d o f h i m a n d I h a v e b e e n p h o n i n g h i m
e v e r y si n g l e d a y f ro m l a st w e e k.
W i t h r e g a r d t o t h e i s s u e w h a t h e w i l l t e st i f y a b o u t .
10

Mr

Te r e n ce J o u b e rt i s p r e s e n t a n d I c o n f i r m w i t h h i m a g a i n t h i s
m o r n i n g t h a t h e d o e s n o t d e - c h e c k f r o m t h e a ff i d a vi t t h a t
w a s c o m m i s si o n e d b y C a p t a i n E d w a r d Z u m a .
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m.

We l l , t h e t h i n g a b o u t M r J o u b e rt i s,

h e s e e m s t o h a ve d e p o s e d t o a n a ff i d a vi t i n 2 0 1 6 w h i c h . . . i n
w h i c h h e d e n i e d t h e a ff i d a vi t o f 2 0 1 3 .
A n d f r o m w h a t M s We n t z e l w a s s a yi n g , w e h a v e a n
a ff i d a vi t , t h e r e c e n t a ff i d a vi t a n d i t a p p e a r s t h a t h e i s
q u e r yi n g s o m e a s p e ct s o f t h a t a ff i d a vi t a s w e l l .
S o i t d o e s m a k e i t d i ff i cul t t o kn o w w h a t e l s e h e w i l l
20

d e n y b e f o r e t h e n e xt d a t e h e t a k e s t h e w i t n e s s st a n d .
ADV NICHOLSON:

I n d e e d , M r C h a i r.

M r C h a i r, a s I

u n d e r st a n d , M r J o u b e rt d o e s n o t d e n y t h e f i r st a ff i d a vi t a n d
h e st i l l m a i n t a i n s t h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: As of what day?
A D V N I C H O L S O N : I b e g yo u r p a r d o n ?
Page 27 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
CHAIRPERSON: As of today?
A D V N I C H O L S O N : N o t a s o f t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: He does not deny?
ADV NICHOLSON:

N o , n o t a s o f t o d a y.

g i v e a b ri e f b a c k g r o u n d .

O k a y i f I c a n j u st

T h e a ff i d a vi t w a s se n t t o m e l a t e

o n F ri d a y. T h a t i s w h e n I d i st ri b u t e d i t t o t h e s e c r e t a ri a t a n d
I m a d e i t a va i l a b l e f o r i t t o b e a l s o d i st ri b u t e d t o M r
Mhlongo.
L a t e r o n S a t u r d a y e v e n i n g , I h a v e re c e i v e d a c a l l f ro m
10

M r Jo u b e rt w h e r e h e e x p l a i n e d t o m e t h a t h i s e x p l a n a t i o n f o r
why

he

made

a

s e co n d

a ff i d a v i t

was

not

p a rt

of

his

i n st r u ct i o n s b u t h e st a n d s w i t h t h e f i r st a ff i d a vi t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l , i s M r J o u b e r t i n t h i s r o o m ?
A D V N I C H O L S O N : H e i s p r e se n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m a y b e t h a t , f o r w h a t i t i s w o rt h , e v e n i f

f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n h e m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o g i v e e vi d e n ce
t h a t c o v e r s e ve r yt h i n g , i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t a t l e a st h e s h o u l d
t a k e t h e st a n d a n d co n f i rm i n f ro n t o f m e w h e t h e r h e st i l l
st a n d s b y t h a t a ff i d a vi t o f 2 0 1 3 b e c a u s e i f t h a t i s. . . i f h e
20

does that, we may not need to call Mr Zuma for another date.
A D V N I C H O L S O N : I n d e e d M r C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

It may well be that we might need to do

t h a t . B u t I t h i n k c o u n s e l f o r M r M h l o n g o a r e e x c u se d b u t y o u
m i g h t w i sh t o r e f l e ct t h a t a n d m a yb e d i s c u s s w i t h M r H u l l e y,
Mr Nicholson as to what may need to be done about Mr
Page 28 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
Zuma.

But I think I will adjourn to enable all of you to talk

about what should happen.

We w i l l a d j o u r n f o r t e n m i n u t e s.

We a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

What have you decided?

MR MANALA:

M r C h a i r, M r J o u b e r t i s h e r e a n d h e i s

willing to confirm that affidavit.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ja, let us do that.

Administer the oath

or affirmation.
REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record.
MR JOUBERT:
REGISTRAR:

Te r e n c e J o h n J o u b e r t .
Do you have any objection to taking the

prescribed oath?
MR JOUBERT:
REGISTRAR:

No.
Do you consider the oath to be binding on

your conscience?
MR JOUBERT:

Ye s .

REGISTRAR: Do you swear that the evidence you will give
20

will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the
truth?

If so, please raise your right hand and say so help

me God.
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:
give evidence.

So help me God.
Thank you, Mr Joubert, for coming to
As I understand the position, you were
Page 29 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
going to be able to give full evidence but it appears that
there

are

some

procedural

issues

that

have

not

been

sorted out that the legal team needs to attend to and you
will be asked to come back on another date but it seems
important that you give evidence with regard to at least the
aspect of whether or not you acknowledge the affidavit of
2013 as being the – an affidavit that you took and that
there are no issues about it because if that is so it would
not be necessary for Mr Zuma to be called, who was the
10

Commissioner of Oaths. So I thought let me explain that to
you. Mr Nicholson, continue then?
ADV NICHOLSON:
MR JOUBERT:

Mr Joubert?

Ye s , s i r.

ADV NICHOLSON:

Yo u h a v e a b u n d l e i n f r o n t o f y o u .

If

y o u t u r n t o Y 11 , y o u w i l l s e e t h e b u n d l e – M r C h a i r, i t i s
LEA10.
CHAIRPERSON:

H’m?

ADV NICHOLSON:

It is LEA10, I think the bundle is being

h a n d e d t o y o u . I a p o l o g i s e , M r C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a t i s b u n d l e L E A 1 0 .

ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a i r.
Do not speak too far away from the mic.

ADV NICHOLSON:

LEA10 has three exhibits in it.

exhibit we are going to look at, as EXHIBIT Y11.
is EXHIBIT Y10 and there is EXHIBIT Y11.
Page 30 of 36

The

So there

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
CHAIRPERSON:

And at what page is it?

ADV NICHOLSON:

Mr Chair, it is in folder, in a blue

folder.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja but what is the page number?

ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

It starts afresh from 1 again.
H’m?

ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

It starts afresh from page 1.
Page 1.

ADV NICHOLSON:
10

So if you go to the pack you will see

the file, there is three blue folders.

The first one is Y10,

the second one is Y11.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, if you tell me the page number that

should enable me to go there.

At page 31 appears to be

the index. Page 1, page 2 is the filing notice.
ADV NICHOLSON:

If the Chair would go to 210, page

210.
CHAIRPERSON:

210?

ADV NICHOLSON:

210.

After 210 the Chair would see

that there is a folder Y11
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Why does it look like the pagination is

not in order here?
ADV NICHOLSON:

Chair, what I think this is, I think that

is – possibly it would be preferable if each exhibit goes
into a separate file because then it will run from 1 to the
end of the file but in this case, we have got three different
Page 31 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
exhibits.

So it runs to 1 to the end of the exhibit.

In the

next exhibit it starts at 1 again.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, but I have spoken about that quite a

few times, that is not the way the pagination should be
done.
ADV NICHOLSON:

Indeed, Chair, what I will endeavour to

do, since we are only going to deal with one exhibit here,
is perhaps to remove the other exhibits out of the file and
put them into separate files.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I

mean,

I

had

a

conversation

with

members of – I think – I do not know if you were there
yourself but Mr Hulley and Ms Wentzel were there, we had
a discussion, was it early in the week, was it on Monday or
was it last week when I clarified this issue of pagination.
ADV NICHOLSON:

Indeed I was present.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, so why is this bundle that was

meant to be used today not paginated in the way that I said
they should be paginated?
ADV NICHOLSON:
20

Mr Chair, as I understand, the file is

not paginated in the way that the Chair requires from what
I understand from the Chair now but each individual bundle
…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

No, I am asking why is it not paginated

the way in which I said bundles should be paginated?
ADV NICHOLSON:

Chair, this is the way I understood the
Page 32 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
file ought to be paginated and the paginating team, the
bundle team, also understood it to be this way.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, the pagination is not in order.

ADV NICHOLSON:

Will it help, Chair, if we

removed the bundles.

So in other words, we will take out

simply

Y10, we will put it in a separate file, we will take out Y11
and we will put it into a separate file and we do the same
with Y12.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

simple.

The pagination that I have explained is

You have page 1 at the beginning and it is

sequential up to the end.

It makes it easy, you do not

need to tell me many things, you just say – or the next
document that I am referring you to, you go to page so and
so, there is one page 20 in the bundle, there is only page
40, there is only one page 5.
filed,

you

see?

If

you

There are not many pages

arrange

it

to

have

different

pagination for different sections in the file you end up with
different page numbers appearing in different sections,
that does not make things easy. The best way to do this is
20

– you see, I have to struggle now to find – so there is an
affidavit of Mr Joubert that I am coming across somewhere.
ADV NICHOLSON:

That is the affidavit we are going to

deal with today, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON:

It is three pages that the one that I am

at...
Page 33 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
ADV NICHOLSON:

20, 21 and 22.

It is Y11, TJJ020, 21

and 22.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr Joubert?
Yes.
You know about the three affidavits that

we are talking about that you have signed, is that correct?
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:

That is correct.
Yes,

the

one

was

signed

in

2013,

another one was signed in 2016 and I understand another
10

one was signed recently, is that correct?
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:

That is correct.
You know also that the one that is

signed was deposed to in 2016 effectively disowns the
affidavit of 2013, is that correct?

It denies what is in that

affidavit or denies that you know about that affidavit, is
that correct?
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:

Yes, that is correct.
Yes.

And in the third affidavit that you

signed recently you explained how the affidavit of 2016
20

came about, is that correct?
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:

That is correct so.
Yes.

Now in the affidavit of 2013 you

testified about certain matters that you heard about from
Colonel Mhlongo, is that correct?
MR JOUBERT:

That is correct, ja.
Page 34 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
CHAIRPERSON:

And you had recorded him,

is that

correct?
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:

That is also correct.
Who did you depose to – before whom

did you depose to, that affidavit?
MR JOUBERT:

It was commissioned by Captain Zuma at

the time.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR JOUBERT:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Yes.
Ja.
And that affidavit, did you depose to it

voluntarily and freely?
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:

That is correct, Your Honour.
Yes and the signature that appears in

that affidavit is your signature?
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:

Is mine.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay, so you have no queries about the

fact that you made that affidavit?
20

MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR JOUBERT:
CHAIRPERSON:

None whatsoever, sir.
And you stand by it.
Yes, sir.
Okay,

alright.

I

think

for

present

purposes that is what we needed to be dealt with.

And

then another arrangement will be made for you to come
Page 35 of 36

30 JULY 2020 – DAY 241
back and then you can give evidence about the content and
you will also explain how the second affidavit came about
and if in the third affidavit - there is the recent one, there
is something that is not true, you will explain that as well.
MR JOUBERT:

That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:
affidavit

where

Or if you want to put in a supplementary
you

explain

some

things

in

the

recent

affidavit that you feel are not accurate, that is fine as well.
MR JOUBERT:
10

Okay, thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay, alright.

We – I am going to

release you and arrangements will be made for you to
come back.
MR JOUBERT:

Okay.

CHAIRPERSON:

So you are excused.

to adjourn just now.

But we are going

On Monday I will be hearing the

evidence of Judge Makhubele and for the rest of next week
I

will

hear

evidence

relating

to

certain

allegations

of

corruption in the Free State, so that is what will happen
next week.
20

For tomorrow I will hear the evidence of Mr

Sandile July in relation to the rendition matter and his
investigation.
the public.

That is just for the benefit of the media and

We are going to adjourn now for the day.

adjourn.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 3 1 J U LY 2 0 2 0

Page 36 of 36

We