C O M MI S SI O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT C I T Y O F J O H A N N ES B U R G O L D C O U N C I L C H A M B E R 1 5 8 C I VI C B O U L EVA R D , B R A A M FO N T EI N 2 9 J U LY 2 0 2 0 D AY 2 4 0 22 Woodlands Drive Irene Woods, Centurion TEL: 012 941 0587 FAX: 086 742 7088 MOBILE: 066 513 1757 info@gautengtranscribers.co.za CERTIFICATE OF VERACITY I, the undersigned, hereby certify that, in as far as it is audible, the aforegoing is a VERBATIM transcription from the soundtrack of proceedings, as was ordered to be transcribed by Gauteng Transcribers and which had been recorded by the client COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE CAPTURE HELD AT CITY OF JOHANNESBURG OLD COUNCIL CHAMBER 158 CIVIC BOULEVARD, BRAAMFONTEIN DATE OF HEARING: 29 JULY 2020 TRANSCRIBERS: B KLINE; Y KLIEM; V FAASEN; D STANIFORTH Page 2 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 9 J U LY 2 0 2 0 CHAIRPERSON: G o o d m o r n i n g M r H u l l e y, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. ADV HULLEY SC: Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: that we deal Ye s . with – I understand that it would be better I deal with an application for a postponement A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s s o M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 In regard to a witness who was scheduled t o t e st i f y t o d a y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t o cr o s s -e x a m i n e s o m e b o d y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : M r M c B ri d e a n d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o t h a t w h e n w e t h e n c o n t i n u e w i t h M r N h l e k o t h e r e i s n o i n t e rr u p t i o n u n t i l w e – w e f i n i s h w i t h i n t h e two hours that I hope we will finish with him. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: So okay I think let us deal with that a p p l i ca t i o n f i r st . So it – remembering what happened on M o n d a y i t d o e s a p p e a r t h a t t h i s i s a si t u a t i o n w h e r e b o t h M r M c B ri d e w h o w a s t o b e c ro s s - e x a m i n e d i s a p p l yi n g f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t a s w e l l a s A d v o c a t e … A D V H U L L E Y S C : P r e t o ri u s. CHAIRPERSON: J P P r e t o ri u s S C i s a l s o a p p l yi n g f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t . Page 3 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y l e t u s d e a l w i t h t h a t f i r st . Do you w a n t t o p l a ce y o u r p o si t i o n a s t h e c o m m i s si o n ’s l e g a l t e a m on record? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k yo u M r C h a i r m a n . M r C h a i rm a n I w a s g i ve n a n i n d i c a t i o n b y m y l e a rn e d f ri e n d M r M a t a b e d e w h o a p p e a r s o n b e h a l f o f A d v o c a t e P re t o ri u s t h a t i t w a s h i s i n st r u ct i o n t o b ri n g a n a p p l i c a t i o n f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t . I – h e i n d i c a t e d t o m e t h a t t h e r e w a s c e rt a i n – t h e re w e re 10 c e rt a i n i s s u e s t h a t h e f e l t o u g h t t o b e a d d r e s s e d i n t h e a ff i d a vi t a n d h a d n o t b e e n a d d r e s s e d i n t h e a ff i d a vi t o f h i s cl i e n t . I h a d c o n s i d e r e d t h e a ff i d a vi t p ri o r t o t h a t a n d i t w a s a l s o m y vi e w t h a t t h e r e m u c h t h a t h a d n o t b e e n a d d r e s s e d i n t h e – i n t h e a ff i d a vi t a n d i f i t h a d b e e n a d d r e s s e d , I f e l t t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e c u rt a i l e d t h e p r o c e e d i n g s t o a s i g n i f i c a n t e xt e n t . I n t h e c o n t e xt o f h i s i n d i c a t i o n t o m e I d i d i n d i c a t e t o h i m t h a t i f I c o u l d – i f c e rt a i n d e m a n d s o f – o n o u r si d e co u l d be met I would not oppose the a p p l i ca t i o n for a p o st p o n e m e n t b e c a u se I b e l i e v e t h a t i t m a y w e l l c u rt a i l t h e 20 i s s u e s. H e e x c e e d e d t o t h e d e m a n d s a n d i n t h a t c o n t e xt , I a m n o w p l a ci n g o n r e co r d t h a t h e – t h a t a s t h e e vi d e n c e leaders we do not oppose the application. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o b vi o u sl y i n t h e l i g h t o f t h a t yo u w o u l d a d o p t a si m i l a r a p p r o a c h t o o p p o si t i o n t o M r M c B ri d e ’s o w n a p p l i ca t i o n f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t a n d g i v e n w h a t h a p p e n e d o n Page 4 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 Monday? ADV HULLEY SC: Indeed, we have a l re a d y p l a ce d o u r s e l v e s o n r e c o rd a s f a r a s t h a t i s c o n ce r n e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: A n d h e w a s g r a n t e d a p o st p o n e m e n t i n re l a t i o n t o M o n d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d w e h o l d t h e s a m e vi e w i n re l a t i o n t o t o d a y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. N o t h a t i s f i n e . ADV HULLEY SC: A s f a r a s G e n e ra l B o o y s e n i s c o n c e r n e d h e h a s i n d i c a t e d t h a t h e i s o n st a n d b y. We h a d a n t i ci p a t e d t h a t i f h e i s – i f t h e e vi d e n ce w a s l e d a n d h e w a s g o i n g t o b e s u b j e ct e d t o cr o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: We w o u l d p h o n e h i m o n c e t h e t i m e a r ri v e d o r m o r e o r l e s s o n c e t h e t i m e a r ri v e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. I t h i n k C o u n se l f o r M r M c B ri d e m u st a l s o c o m e a n d c o n f i rm t h a t s h e a p p l i e s f o r a p o st p o n e m e n t i n r e g a r d t o M r M c B ri d e . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n . A D V H A R D I N G : G o o d m o r n i n g M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. Page 5 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HARDING: re c o r d . I, for the record again place myself on M y n a m e i s K a t h e ri n e H a r d i n g a n d I a p p e a r o n behalf of Mr McBride. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV HARDING: M r C h a i r I a m i n s t ru ct e d t o a p p e a r a s I d i d o n M o n d a y i n o rd e r t o r e q u e st a n a d j o u r n m e n t o f t h e c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n o f M r M c B ri d e b y A d v o c a t e P r e t o ri u s ’ t e a m a s w a s g r a n t e d o n M o n d a y i n r e s p e ct o f t h e c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n b y M r N h l e k o ’s l e g a l t e a m . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV HARDING: I d o s o a s I d i d o n M o n d a y o n t h e b a si s o f t h e a ff i d a vi t t h a t w a s f i l e d w i t h t h e c o m m i s si o n o n t h e 2 6 t h i t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 3 6 5 0 o f y o u r b u n d l e M r C h a i r, B u n d l e Y 8 [ H ] . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V H A R D I N G : T h e a ff i d a vi t I b e l i e v e h a s b e e n p r o vi d e d t o A d v o c a t e P r e t o ri u s’ l e g a l t e a m . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV HARDING: Adams 20 A n d m y i n st r u ct i n g a t t o r n e y s A d a m s a n d addressed f u rt h e r correspondence to A d v o ca t e P r e t o ri u s’ a t t o r n e y y e st e rd a y. A g a i n , a t t a ch i n g t h a t a ff i d a vi t a n d c o n f i r m i n g t h a t I o n b e h a l f o f M r M cB ri d e w o u l d b e re q u e st i n g a n a d j o u r n m e n t t o d a y a s w a s g r a n t e d o n M o n d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV HARDING: T h e b a si s o f t h e re q u e st a s y o u w i l l r e ca l l M r C h a i r i s t o a ff o rd M r M c B ri d e a n d h i s l e g a l t e a m s u ff i ci e n t Page 6 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 o p p o rt u n i t y t o p r e p a r e f o r t h e cr o s s -e x a m i n a t i o n b y A d v o ca t e P r e t o ri u s’ l e g a l t e a m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HARDING: A n d t h e d e t a i l e d re a s o n s f o r t h a t r e q u e st a r e s e t o u t i n t h a t a ff i d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V H A R D I N G : Yo u r – M r C h a i r i f y o u w o u l d l i ke m e t o t a ke y o u t h r o u g h t h o se re a s o n s a g a i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o i t i s n o t n e c e s s a r y. 10 ADV HARDING: I am prepared to do so. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV HARDING: M y b a si s M r C h a i r I re f e r y o u t o si m p l y t o p a r a g ra p h s 2 0 a n d 2 1 o f t h a t a ff i d a vi t i n a d d i t i o n i n w h i c h M r M c B ri d e acknowledges the i n e vi t a b l e inconvenience and a p o l o g i s e s t o a l l p a rt i e s i n v o l v e d a n d s e t s o u t h o w h e t ri e d t o a m e l i o ra t e t h a t i n c o n ve n i e n c e a s m u c h a s p o s si b l e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV HARDING: I wish to r e e m p h a si s e Mr M c B ri d e ’s c o m m i t m e n t t o t h e p r o c e s s a n d t o a p p e a ri n g t o b e c r o s s20 e x a m i n a t i o n s u b j e ct t o h a vi n g h a d s u ff i ci e n t o p p o r t u n i t y t o p r e p a re f o r t h a t c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n . re q u e st an adjournment of his A d v o c a t e P r e t o ri u s’ l e g a l t e a m . CHAIRPERSON: Okay no thank you. A D V H A R D I N G : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. Page 7 of 239 M r C h a i r I t h e r e f o re c r o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n by 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k yo u . A n d t h e n C o u n s e l f ro m M r P r e t o ri u s. A D V M ATA B E D I F : [ ? ] M o r n i n g C h a i rp e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. A D V M ATA B E D I F : [ ? ] Ma t a b e d i F t o g e t h e r w i t h A d v o ca t e Mahlanga and Dramamela we appear on behalf of Advocate P r e t o ri u s S C . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V M ATA B E D I F : [ ? ] C h a i r p e r s o n o n t h e 2 7 t h o f t h i s m o n t h 10 a s u b st a n t i v e a p p l i c a t i o n f o r t h e r e l i e f a s m o r e f u l l y s e t o u t i n t h e n o t i c e o f m o t i o n w a s l a u n c h e d a n d d e l i ve re d a n d acknowledge thereof was given to us My Lord. C h a i rp e r s o n t h e re a s o n w h y w e – w e a r e s e e ki n g a p o st p o n e m e n t i t i s d u e t o a n u m b e r o f re a s o n s. We indicating were – our client that a was served with a notice c r o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n of G e n e r a l B o o y s e n s w i l l t a ke p l a c e t o d a y. Mr McBride and H o w e v e r, d u r i n g t h e d i s c u s si o n s t h a t w e h a d i t b e c a m e a p p a re n t t h a t t h e e vi d e n c e o f M r K h u b a a n d S e s o k o w i l l a l s o y o u k n o w p l a y a 20 ro l e t o d a y. T h e c h a l l e n g e w i t h t h a t i s t h a t m y – A d v o ca t e P r e t o ri u s w a s n o t g i v e n a n o t i c e – t h e r e q u i re d n o t i c e i n d i c a t i n g t h a t b o t h Mr S e s o ko a n d K h u b a w e re g o i n g t o implicate him. N o w i t i s a – i t i s i m p o s si b l e i n l e a d i n g t h e e vi d e n c e o f P re t o ri u s S C t h a t w e w i l l n o t m a k e r e f e r e n ce t o t h e Page 8 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 e vi d e n c e o f b o t h M r K h u b a a n d S e s o k o . And the quadrum that we find ourselves in is that once he refers to that e vi d e n c e i n h i s e vi d e n ce i n c h i e f t h e n t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s a r e e n t i t l e d t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e h i m o n t h e e vi d e n c e t h a t h e tendered. N o w w h a t i s i n b e st i n t e re st o f M r P r e t o ri u s S C i s t o b r i n g a s u b st a n t i v e a p p l i c a t i o n f o r t h e c o n d o n a t i o n a n d f o r t h e l e a v e t o c r o s s -e x a m i n e b o t h M r K h u b a a n d S e s o k o . As t h e e vi d e n c e o f b o t h M r K h u b a a n d S e s o k o i s i n t e r -r e l a t e d 10 w i t h t h a t o f M r M c B ri d e s o i t w i l l s e r ve o r c u rt a i l t h e p r o c e e d i n g s i f t h a t i s d o n e i n a – t o g e t h e r. And the other a s p e ct is the f a ct that Advocate P r e t o ri u s S C h e w a s g i v e n p e r m i s si o n t o c r o s s- e x a m i n e b o t h M r M c B r i d e a n d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n s. B u t o n a p e ru s a l o f t h e initial application it became apparent that he did not deal w i t h a l o t o f i s s u e s t h a t h e w a s su p p o se d t o d e a l w i t h . N o w t h a t b e i n g t h e c a se i t i s v e r y i m p o rt a n t t h a t w e s h o u l d s u p p l e m e n t h i s a ff i d a vi t a n d b y so d o i n g t h a t w i l l a l s o c u rt a i l t h e p r o c e e d i n g s o t h e r w i s e y o u k n o w o n t h e e vi d e n ce 20 b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s si o n i f o n e h a s t o a p p l y t h e p r i n ci p l e re l a t i n g t o h o w e vi d e n c e has to be weighed we would re s p e ct f u l l y s u b m i t t h a t h e w i l l b e s a v e p r e j u d i ce . And the other a sp e ct is that t h e re is an u n d e r st a n d i n g b e t w e e n t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s a n d t h e l e g a l t e a m o f A d v o c a t e P r e t o ri u s S C t h a t w e w i l l a d d r e s s i s s u e s Page 9 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 w h i c h t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s r e q u i r e s o f A d vo c a t e P re t o ri u s SC to deal with. And by so doing we submit and we are of t h e r e a so n a b l e vi e w t h a t t h e p r o ce e d i n g s w i t h re g a r d t o t h e e vi d e n c e o f A d v o c a t e P r e t o ri u s, t h e c r o s s- e x a m i n a t i o n o f M r M c B ri d e , G e n e ra l B o o y s e n s a n d M r K h u b a a n d S e s o k o w i l l b e yo u k n o w c u rt a i l e d w h i ch i s i n t h e b e st i n t e r e st o f t h e c o m m i s si o n t a ki n g into account yo u know that the c o m m i s si o n a t t h e – t h i s j u n ct u re y o u kn o w o p e r a t e s u n d e r serious 10 time c o n st r a i n t s and r e st ri ct i o n s. Unless the C h a i r p e r s o n w o u l d l i k e t o h e a r m e o n a s p e ci f i c a s p e ct t h a t i s t h e c a s e f o r M r – f o r A d vo c a t e P r e t o ri u s S C . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. No thank you. h e a r y o u o n a n yt h i n g e l s e . re l u ct a n t to g ra n t No I do not need to I u n d e r st a n d I h a v e b e e n p o st p o n e m e n t s unless really it was n e ce s s a r y a n d t h e r e w e r e st r o n g re a s o n s o f l a t e p re c i se l y b e ca u s e t h e c o m m i s si o n h a s a ve r y l i m i t e d l i f e sp a n l e f t a n d w e n e e d t o f i n i sh t h e w o r k. B u t t h e re a s o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n a d va n c e d i n r e g a rd t o M r P r e t o ri u s I u n d e r st a n d a n d i n t h e e n d t h e c u rt a i l m e n t o f p r o ce e d i n g s i s i n t h e i n t e r e st o f t h e 20 c o m m i s si o n . S o i t i s q u i t e i m p o rt a n t t h a t w h e n a w i t n e s s c o m e s a n d a c r o s s- e x a m i n e r c o m e s t o cr o s s -e x a m i n e t h e i s s u e s b e q u i t e cl e a r s o t h a t t h e p r o c e e d i n g s c a n r u n s m o o t h l y. So I a m p r e p a r e d t o g r a n t t h e p o st p o n e m e n t a n d I a m p r e p a r e d t o g r a n t t h e p o st p o n e m e n t re q u e st e d b y M r M c B r i d e a s w e l l . Page 10 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 I j u st w a n t t o s a y a n d e v e r y b o d y C o u n s e l f o r M r M c B ri d e w i l l b e h e a ri n g a n d y o u w i l l b e h e a ri n g t h a t b e ca u s e of our determination to try and finish the work that we have t o d o i n t h e c o m m i s si o n w i t h i n t h e t i m e t h a t w e h a v e w e w i l l – w e m a y h a ve a si t u a t i o n so o n w h e r e w e r e q u i r e p e o p l e t o a p p e a r i n w h a t I c a l l o u r e v e n i n g s e s si o n s. That means that you might not be required to present y o u r s e l f a t n i n e o ’ cl o c k o r t e n o ’ cl o c k b u t m a y b e a t f o u r o ’ cl o c k a n d w h e n t h e w i t n e s s w a s g i vi n g e vi d e n c e f o r t h e 10 d a y i s d o n e , w e st a rt w i t h s o m e b o d y. Maybe we need two hours or three hours we do that, we are done. t o se v e n p m o r s o m e t h i n g . So we go up S o a s I g r a n t p o st p o n e m e n t s I j u st w a n t p e o p l e t o u n d e r st a n d t h a t t h e y m i g h t f i n d t h a t w e a r e i n t h a t si t u a t i o n . O b vi o u s l y, t h e i d e a l t h i n g w o u l d b e t o d e a l w i t h a w i t n e s s w h o c a n f i n i s h h i s o r h e r e v i d e n ce t h a t e v e n i n g b u t i f t h e y c a n n o t f i n i s h , w e w i l l h a v e t o f i n d a w a y. attempt for us to find more time. I t i s j u st a n B e c a u s e – a n d st a rt i n g e a rl y i n t h e m o r n i n g s f r o m – w e m i g h t q u i t e o f t e n st a rt a t 20 n i n e i n st e a d o f t e n n o w a n d i n st e a d o f f i n i s h i n g a t f o u r f i n i s h a t f i v e o r e v e n si x. B e ca u s e j u st i n f i v e d a y s i f w e a d d t w o h o u r s b y st a rt i n g a t n i n e a n d f i n i s h i n g a t f i v e su d d e n l y, w e h a ve t e n h o u r s – e xt r a h o u r s a w e e k a n d t h a t c a n b e v e r y helpful. S o I a m j u st m e n t i o n i n g t h a t s o t h a t p e o p l e s h o u l d Page 11 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 n o t b e su r p ri se d n o t o n l y y o u b u t o t h e r p e o p l e s h o u l d n o t b e s u r p ri s e d i f w e – i f t h e y so o n g e t n o t i c e s w h e r e t h e y – w h i c h i n d i c a t e t h a t y o u r e vi d e n c e w i l l s t a rt a t f o u r. So – but otherwise I am happy to grant the – the applications for p o st p o n e m e n t . O n e b y M r J P P r e t o r i u s S C a n d t h e o t h e r b y M r M c B ri d e t o d a t e s t h a t a re st i l l t o b e d e t e r m i n e d . O b vi o u s l y w h a t e v e r n e e d s t o b e d o n e n e e d s t o b e done urgently? I do not know whether between yourselves a n d t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s a n y t i m e f ra m e s h a v e b e e n a g r e e d 10 b u t t h e y n e e d t o b e d o n e u r g e n t l y. I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t t h e d a t e s t o w h i c h – t h a t yo u w i l l b e a d vi s e d o f a r e g o i n g t o w i t h i n t h e n e xt t h r e e w e e k s I t h i n k they will be beyond that. B u t t h e s o o n e r e v e r yt h i n g i s f i n a l i s e d i n p re p a r a t i o n t h e b e t t e r. But otherwise both applications are granted and the h e a ri n g o f t h e e vi d e n ce o f Mr J P P re t o ri u s S C a n d h i s c ro s s - e x a m i n a t i o n o f M r M c B ri d e a n d M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y se n is adjourned to a date to be given and Mr M cB ri d e ’s e vi d e n c e a l so t h e h e a ri n g o f h i s e v i d e n ce i s a l s o a d j o u r n e d 20 to a date to be fixed. C h a i r p e r so n w e a r e i n d e b t e d t o y o u r s e l f a n d a l s o t h e e vi d e n c e l e a d e r s. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. A D V M ATA B E D I F : [ ? ] T h a n k s C h a i rp e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t . A r e y o u r e a d y M r H u l l e y ? Page 12 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhleko. M R N H L E K O : G o o d m o rn i n g S i r. CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. M R N H L E K O : G o o d m o rn i n g S i r. CHAIRPERSON: The oath you took two days ago continues t o a p p l y. L e t u s c o n t i n u e . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r I s a i d t h i s y e st e r d a y 10 b u t i f I d i d n o t s a y i t t h e n I a m s a y i n g i t n o w. I am going to b e m u c h m o r e st r i ct e r t o d a y w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e p r o c e e d i n g s s o M r N h l e k o t h o s e l o n g st o ri e s I w i l l o n l y a l l o w t h e m i f I t h i n k st ri ct l y s p e a ki n g , t h e y a r e r e l e v a n t . M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u w i l l b e t r yi n g t o a n s w e r q u e st i o n s a s b ri e f l y a s y o u c a n a n d t h e n M r H u l l e y, I k n o w t h a t f r o m o u r d i s c u s si o n – f r o m o u r d i s c u s si o n h e r e a t t h e h e a ri n g y e st e r d a y y o u w i l l a l s o b e l o o ki n g a t g o i n g t o d e a l i n g w i t h the real meat. 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e i s s u e s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V H U L L E Y S C : J u st t o f i n i s h o ff o n t w o t o p i c s t h a t a r o s e d u ri n g t h e c o u r se o f ye st e r d a y M r N h l e k o . Page 13 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 M R N H L E K O : H e l l o S i r. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e o n e r e l a t e d t o t h e d e l e t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o rr y M r H u l l e y i s t h a t l a m p w o r ki n g today Mr Nhleko? M R N H L E K O : N o i t i s a ct u a l l y n o t w o r ki n g H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r I m u st a l s o d e cl a re t h a t I b r o u g h t a l o n g i s i w a s h u t o a s si st m e . S o – b u t n e v e rt h e l e s s n o I a m f i n e . I t h i n k I a m a b l e t o manage with the light. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e a b l e t o c o p e . Ye s. 10 M R N H L E K O : T h a n k s. C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l I w o n d e r w h a t i s w r o n g w i t h t h a t l a m p b e ca u s e i t i s s u p p o se d t o b e w o r ki n g . S o m a y b e d u ri n g t h e t e a b r e a k t h e y m u st l o o k a t i t a g a i n . B u t M r N h l e ko s a y s h e b r o u g h t h i s – h e i s d e cl a ri n g t h a t h e b r o u g h t i s i w a s h u . No I d i d sa y t h a t h e c o n t i n u e s t o t h r o w i n t h e s e I si - Z u l u w o r d s. J a w e l l I kn o w w h a t i si w a s h u i s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s l e t u s c o n t i n u e . ADV HULLEY SC: 20 Th a n k yo u M r C h a i r m a n . C h a i r i f I ca n re f e r t o w h a t h a s – w h a t i s L E A 4 . CHAIRPERSON: I m u st j u st c o n f e s s I su s p e ct t h a t i t i s j u st p u r e w a t e r a n d n o t i si w a s h u ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : P a rd o n m e I d i d n o t c a t c h t h a t M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: N o I a m s o rr y. I a m s a yi n g I s u s p e ct t h a t w h a t h e i s s a yi n g h e i s d e cl a ri n g a s i s i w a s h u I su s p e ct i t i s Page 14 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 j u st p u r e w a t e r. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e h e i s i n t i m i d a t i n g y o u Mr H u l l e y so t h a t w h e n y o u q u e st i o n h i m . A D V H U L L E Y S C : H e h a s b e e n t r yi n g si n c e t h e f i r st d a y M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u k n o w i si w a s h u i s I t h i n k ki n d o f blessed water that blessed by church people is it not? Or do you get it from traditional healers as well? 10 MR NHLEKO: N o y o u a l s o d o g e t i t f ro m t h e t r a d i t i o n a l h e a l e r s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a d i t i o n a l h e a l e r s. MR NHLEKO: I think it s h o u l d b e u n d e r st o o d a s t h e t ra d i t i o n a l m e d i ci n e co n c o ct i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. MR NHLEKO: Ye s. I t h i n k i si w a s h u t h a t i s p ro b a b l y w h a t [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 1 9 : 5 6 ] . CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hulley continue. ADV HULLEY SC: 20 T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. Mr Chair the d o cu m e n t t h a t I w o u l d l i k e t o re f e r t o n e xt i s p a rt o f a – i s p a rt o f a b u n d l e o f d o c u m e n t s w h i c h w e h a ve m a r ke d o r a g r e e d t o b e m a r k e d a s E x h i b i t Y 8 [ D ] i t i s t h e a ff i d a vi t o f Matthews Sesoko. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y I c o n f i r m t o M r. . ADV HULLEY SC: It would be LEA4 bundle. Page 15 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: Y? ADV HULLEY SC: So the exhibit is Exhibit Y8[D]. CHAIRPERSON: Ja but the bundle? ADV HULLEY SC: And the bundle is LEA4. CHAIRPERSON: LEA4. O k a y. I j u st w a n t t o c o n f i rm M r H u l l e y w e k n o w t h a t M r N h l e k o d i d n o t a p p l y f o r l e a ve t o c ro s s - e x a m i n e Mr Khuba but I take it that Mr K h u b a ’s st a t e m e n t a n d h i s e vi d e n c e f o r m s p a rt o f w h a t y o u n o t i f i e d him. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: I believe he had been notified. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o ka y. ADV HULLEY SC: If there is any challenge to that u n d e r st o o d f r o m t h e a d d re s s ri g h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: Yo u m i g h t r e c a l l t h a t t h e re w a s a n indication that there had not been proper notice that had been given. CHAIRPERSON: Ja o k a y n o I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e a s t o t h e s c o p e o f t h e e vi d e n ce . 20 ADV MOKHARI: Ye s i n d e e d C h a i r a s I p o i n t e d o u t t h a t h e w a s n o t g i v e n t h e n o t i ce . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V M O K H A R I : B u t t h e a ff i d a vi t o f S e s o k o a n d K h u b a . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV MOKHARI: Came to his attention later long after they Page 16 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 h a ve t e st i f i e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. ADV MOKHARI: But he is aware of those ja. CHAIRPERSON: He is ready to deal with them. ADV MOKHARI: And remember what I said in my opening st a t e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV MOKHARI: T h a t n o t h i n g r e a l l y t e l l s o n t h e a ff i d a vi t o f Khuba and Sesoko. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV MOKHARI: And we said that we are not even going to w a st e o u r t i m e t o c ro s s - e x a m i n e t h e m . M R N H L E K O : Ye s. N o , n o I r e m e m b e r. A D V M O K H A R I : Ye s t h a t i s ri g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k yo u M r C h a i r. Now during the c o u r s e o f y o u r t e s t i m o n y y e st e r d a y y o u w e r e sp e a ki n g a b o u t t h e l a w s t h a t w e r e a p p l i ca b l e t o – t o t h e p r o c e s s e s w i t h i n I P I D a n d h o w I P I D r e p o rt s h a ve t o b e f i n a l i se d . 20 S p e ci f i c a l l y y o u w e re m a ki n g t h e p o i n t w h i c h i s t h e p o i n t I w i s h t o d e a l w i t h f o r p r e se n t p u r p o s e s t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g i n t h e – i n any law to use your terminology which required the E x e c u t i v e D i re ct o r t o si g n a n y – t o si g n o ff o n a n y r e p o rt s. N o w w e s p e a ki n g sp e ci f i c a l l y a b o u t I P I D r e p o rt s. re c a l l t h a t ? Page 17 of 239 Do you 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 M R N H L E K O : Ye s I d o . CHAIRPERSON: Ju st one second. The h e a t e r/ a i r c o n d i t i o n e r i n t h e p a st f e w d a y s w h e n i t w a s o n d o y o u f e e l t h a t i t w a rm i n g u p i f I sa y i t s h o u l d b e s w i t c h e d o ff . Does t h a t p r e j u d i c e a n y b o d y ? I w i l l h a v e i t k e p t o n i f i t d o e s w a rm up but if it does not I am not sure. A D V H U L L E Y S C : S p e a ki n g f o r m y s e l f M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a k e s s o m e d i ff e r e n c e ? ADV HULLEY SC: 10 d i ff e r e n c e . W h e n i t g o e s o ff – i t d o e s m a k e a W h e n i t g o e s o ff i t b e c o m e s i n c r e d i b l y c o l d . I know that Mr Nhleko has complained. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i s t h a t s o . O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: B u t I w o u l d h a p p y i f i t g e t s s w i t c h e d o ff . I f i t i s i n t e rf e ri n g w i t h t h e a b i l i t y t o h e a r. CHAIRPERSON: No, I think if we – if both of you try to s p e a k cl o s e r t o t h e m i c r o p h o n e . A D V H U L L E Y S C : A b s o l u t e M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t m i g h t b e f i n e j a . O k a y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: l e g i sl a t i o n that J u st a s f a r a s t h e – a s t h e d i ff e r e n t g o ve r n s the r e p o rt i n g duty of IPID is c o n ce r n e d t h a t o f c o u r s e i s t o b e f o u n d i n t h r e e d i ff e r e n t p i e c e s o r t h r e e d i ff e re n t i n st r u m e n t s. The one is the IPID A ct , t h e o t h e r o n e i s t h e I P I D R e g u l a t i o n s a n d t h e t h i r d i s Page 18 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 t h e st a n d a r d o p e ra t i n g p r o c e d u r e s . Are you aware of that Sir? M R N H L E K O : Ye s I a m a w a r e S i r. ADV HULLEY SC: Now I would like you to turn with me if y o u w i l l t o p a g e – t h e b u n d l e t h a t I h a v e r e f e rr e d y o u t o a m o m e n t a g o t h a t i s Y [ D ] – so r r y Y 8 [ D ] – E x h i b i t Y 8 [ D ] . A n d you will find that in Bundle LEA4. Then I would like you to t u r n s p e ci f i c a l l y t o p a g e 1 5 4 2 o f t h a t b u n d l e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 I a m s o r r y. Do you say that is in Bundle LEA4? A D V H U L L E Y S C : 4 . T h a t i s co r re ct M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: We l l t h i s o n e t h a t I h a v e h e r e i s L E A 1 . That is the one that was handed up a few minutes ago. ADV HULLEY SC: I t sh o u l d – w h a t i t d i d r e a d i n t h e p a st w a s Y 8 [ D ] o n t h e s p i n e b u t i t o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n c o rr e ct e d t o L E A 4 i n a c co r d a n ce w i t h t h e d i r e ct i v e s t h a t y o u g a v e u s. CHAIRPERSON: M y o n e o n t h e s p i n e – t h i s o n e i s w ri t t e n Bundle LEA1. A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o t h a t i s n o t t h e c o r r e ct o n e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: That is not the one? A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t sh o u l d b e L E A 4 M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y n o I a m s o r r y. t h i n k I h a v e g o t i t h e re . I think I am – no I T h e o n e w ri t t e n – w e l l i t i s w ri t t e n Exhibit Y8[D]. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r. Page 19 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t s h o u l d b e w ri t t e n B u n d l e . ADV HULLEY SC: LEA4. CHAIRPERSON: LEA4. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w i l l y o u r t e a m p l e a se m a k e s u r e t h a t m y b u n d l e s a r e w r i t t e n e x a ct l y w h a t t h e y s h o u l d b e w r i t t e n s o t h a t t h e re i s n o … A D V H U L L E Y S C : I w i l l d o t h a t M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 S o t h a t t h e re i s n o c o n f u si o n . Okay what page? ADV HULLEY SC: Th a n k yo u M r C h a i r. If we can look at t w o d i ff e r e n t p a g e s – t h e f i r st p a g e i s a t p a g e 1 5 4 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. So if you turn with m e M r N h l e ko t o p a g e 1 5 4 7 b u t t o p l a c e t h i s i n co n t e xt M r Chair page 1542 indicates this to be the Independent Police I n v e st i g a t i v e D i r e ct i v e S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P r o ce d u re s a n d t h e e ff e ct i ve d a t e i s t h e 1 A p ri l 2 0 1 3 . D o y o u s e e t h a t Mr Nhleko that is on page 1542? 20 MR NHLEKO: Ye s I t h i n k y o u a s k e d m e t o p a g e t o w h e r e – 1547 and I am at 1547. A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h e p a rt i c u l a r d o c u m e n t i f y o u w o u l d t u r n with me to page 1575. Yo u w i l l s e e t h e r e a t t h e – cl o s e t o t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e t h a t i t i s si g n e d b y M s K M b e ki w h o w a s t h e a ct i n g – i d e n t i f i e d a s t h e a ct i n g E x e c u t i ve D i r e ct o r Page 20 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 o n t h e 1 A p ri l 2 0 1 3 . M R N H L E K O : T h a t i s co r r e ct . ADV HULLEY SC: N o w w e k n o w t h a t M s M b e ki i s o f c o u r s e w h o w a s t h e – t h e a ct i n g E x e c u t i v e D i re ct o r t h a t h a s b e e n m e n t i o n e d h e r e p r e vi o u sl y b e f o re M r M cB ri d e b e c a m e t h e E x e c u t i v e D i re ct o r o n t h e 3 M a r c h o f 2 0 1 4 , i s t h a t c o rr e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s t h a t i s c o rr e ct . ADV HULLEY SC: page 1547. 10 Now I would like you to turn with me to There is a definition there – the third definition that appears at – in – on that page a definition of case w o r ke r. G o t i t . M R N H L E K O : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: A n d a ca s e w o r k e r i s d e f i n e d t o m e a n a n y o ff i ci a l w h o h a n d l e s c a se s a n d i n cl u d e s a d a t a c a p t u r e r, a C M S cl e r k, a n i n v e st i g a t o r, a s e n i o r i n ve st i g a t o r, p ri n ci p l e i n v e st i g a t o r, a n a s si st a n t d i re ct o r i n i n v e st i g a t i o n , a d e p u t y d i re ct o r i n v e st i g a t i o n s a n d a – a n d d i re ct o r o f i n v e st i g a t i o n s. I s t h a t c o rr e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s I s e e w h a t i t r e a d s. 20 ADV HULLEY SC: Now if you would turn with me then to page 1572. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: 7 . 1 0 o r p a ra g r a p h 7 . 1 0 c o n t a i n s a t a b l e and that table identifies the procedures for the completion a n d t h e cl o si n g o f f i l e s a n d d o c k e t s. Yo u s e e t h a t ? Page 21 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: I see that. A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w u n d e r t h a t i t se t s o u t t h e p r o c e d u r e . F i r st l y i f you look at – immediately under the heading “p r o c e d u r e ” t h e r e i s a n i n d i c a t i o n o f w h a t i s c o n t e m p l a t e d insofar as the completion of the files are concerned and if y o u g o d o w n i n t h e l e f t co l u m n y o u w i l l s e e i t e m s 1 a l l t h e way up to 5 and then beneath that you will see that there is a s e p a r a t e s e ct i o n w h i c h d e a l s w i t h t h e cl o si n g o f f i l e s a n d t h a t i s i t e m i s e d a s 6 t o 1 0 . Yo u se e t h a t ? 10 M R N H L E K O : Ye s I s e e t h a t . ADV HULLEY SC: Could you read item 1 under “completion o f f i l e s”. MR NHLEKO: “The case worker initiates completion of a file through the s u p e r vi s o r a f t e r c o m p l e t i n g a c a s e , i n v e st i g a t i o n r e p o rt . ” ADV HULLEY SC: A n d c o u l d y o u re a d i t e m 2 w h i c h d e a l s w i t h t h e o b l i g a t i o n s o f a s u p e r vi s o r ? MR NHLEKO: “A s u p e r v i so r re vi e w s a n d q u a l i f i e s , a s su r e s d i r e ct i v e s a n d 20 quality a s su r e s d i re ct i v e s and r e p o rt s and recommends completion to DI/PH.” ADV HULLEY SC: And then can we look at what the obligations of the DI/PH are and I will take you through the d e f i n i t i o n s o f t h o s e i n a m o m e n t . I t e m 3 i n o t h e r w o r d s. MR NHLEKO: Ja, I see that. Page 22 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HULLEY SC: What are the obligations of the DI/PH? MR NHLEKO: I t a p p r o v e s, d i s a p p r o v e s co m p l e t i o n a n d t h e c o m p l e t i o n r e g i st e r i s u t i l i s e d . ADV HULLEY SC: Now to be... to take it back to page 1552, w e w i l l f i n d . . . s o r ry. definition of a DI. J u st g o b a c k sl i g h t l y t o 1 5 4 8 f o r t h e I f yo u l o o k r o u g h l y f o u r i t e m s f r o m t h e bottom: “A d i re ct o r i n v e st i g a t i o n s m e a n s a p e r s o n a p p o i n t e d a s h e a d o f i n v e st i g a t i o n a t p r o vi n ci a l l e v e l . . . ” 10 Do you see that? M R N H L E K O : O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: And if you turn with me to page 1550, you w i l l s e e t h a t t h e d e f i n i t i o n o f a P H i s a p r o g r a m . . . so rr y, p r o vi n ci a l h e a d w h i c h m e a n s a n I P I D o ff i ci a l a p p o i n t e d t o h e a d o f p r o vi n ci a l o ff i c e . CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o rr y. D i d yo u s a y t h a t i s a t p a g e 1550? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r. S o t h re e i t e m s f ro m t h e b o t t o m . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o w I s e e . O k a y. Ye s? ADV HULLEY SC: A n d j u st t o ro u n d o ff t h e d e f i n i t i o n s e ct i o n , i f y o u w o u l d t u r n w i t h m e t o p a g e 1 5 5 1 . I t s a y s t h a t : “A s u p e r vi s o r m e a n s a n y p e r s o n w h o s u p e r vi s o r s a case worker of any level...” S o a s u p e r vi so r i s n o t d e f i n e d w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o a j o b Page 23 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 t i t l e b u t r a t h e r w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o a p e r s o n w h o s u p e r vi s e s a c a s e w o r k e r. D o y o u se e t h a t ? M R N H L E K O : J a - n o , h e r e . I a m f o l l o w i n g C h a i r. ADV HULLEY SC: p a r a g ra p h 7 . 2 . S o j u st t o co m p l e t e . Getting back to I t i s t h e ca s e w o r k e r w h o h a s t o i n i t i a t e t h e completion of the file and he or she would do so through the s u p e r vi s o r. I t e m 1 t h a t i s. After completed the case i n v e st i g a t i o n re p o rt . MR NHLEKO: H’m. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: S o , i n o t h e r w o r d s, a ca s e i n v e st i g a t i o n re p o rt h a s t o b e co m p l e t e d a n d t h a t i s t h e p ro c e s s o f i n i t i a t i o n f o r t h e c o m p l e t i o n o f t h e f i l e . C o r r e ct ? MR NHLEKO: Right. A D V H U L L E Y S C : C o r r e ct ? MR NHLEKO: H’m. ADV HULLEY SC: I n t h e n e xt st e p a f t e r t h a t i s f o r t h e s u p e r vi s o r t o r e vi e w a n d q u a l i t y a s s e s s. S o r ry, r e vi e w a n d q u a l i t y a s su r e a d i re ct . . . [ i n d i st i n c t ] a n d t h e n t o re c o m m e n d completion to the DI/PH. 20 MR NHLEKO: Right. ADV HULLEY SC: N o w, y o u h a v e w o r ke d i n g o v e r n m e n t f o r a long time and you be familiar of how one makes a re c o m m e n d a t i o n , w o u l d yo u n o t so ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, I w o u l d t h e n . ADV HULLEY SC: And when Page 24 of 239 you wish to make a 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 re c o m m e n d a t i o n , y o u w o u l d c o m p l e t e e i t h e r a r e p o rt . I N t h i s c a s e a r e p o rt . Or it might be a memorandum or it might be some other document in which you would have the words “r e c o m m e n d e d / n o t re c o m m e n d e d ”. And if you recommend, you will e n ci r cl e the word “r e c o m m e n d ” o r y o u w o u l d d e l e t e t h e w o rd “n o t r e c o m m e n d ”. C o rr e ct ? M R N H L E K O : H ’ m . T h a t i s co r re ct . ADV 10 HULLEY SC: And you would then append your si g n a t u r e , co r re ct ? M R N H L E K O : T h a t i s co r r e ct . A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d t h e n w h e n y o u g e t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y M r H u l l e y. I am not sure that t h a t i s t h e o n l y w a y i n w h i c h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : I a m n o t s u r e t h a t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] CHAIRPERSON: ...to make recommendations in g o ve r n m e n t . ADV HULLEY SC: I a m n o t s u re t h a t i t i s. I am not s u g g e st i n g f o r a s e c o n d t h a t i t i s t h e o n l y w a y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : B u t I ce rt a i n l y s u g g e st . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: as I u n d e r st o o d g o ve r n m e n t for . . . j u st l e t m e . . . t h e q u e st i o n , I t h i n k, w a s you was a long that he time. h a s. . . He re c o m m e n d a t i o n s a r e m a d e i n g o v e r n m e n t . Page 25 of 239 he w o r ke d knows in how That is how I 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 u n d e r st o o d y o u . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: And that mean... and then you went onto to say how they are made. I know that he answered in a c e rt a i n w a y b u t t h a t s u g g e st e d t o m e t h a t y o u a re s a yi n g . . . y o u a r e s u g g e st i n g t h a t i f i t i s m a d e d i ff e re n t l y t h a t m i g h t n o t b e h o w r e co m m e n d a t i o n s a re m a d e i n g o v e r n m e n t . A D V H U L L E Y S C : S u re . CHAIRPERSON: 10 A n d I w a s j u st s a yi n g t h a t I a m n o t s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s n o o t h e r w a y o f m a ki n g re c o m m e n d a t i o n s w i t h i n g o ve r n m e n t o t h e r t h a n t h a t o n e . A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. We l l , w e k n o w t h a t t h e m e t h o d t h a t w e h a v e d e s c ri b e d n o w i s a m e t h o d t h a t i s u s e d w i t h i n g o v e rn m e n t . A r e yo u a w a r e o f o t h e r m e t h o d s t h a t m i g h t b e u s e d t o co n v e y y o u r i n d i ca t i o n a s a n o ff i ci a l t h a t y o u a c c e p t a re c o m m e n d a t i o n ? S o rr y, l e t m e r e p h r a s e t h a t . T h a t y o u a r e i n f a ct m a ki n g a re c o m m e n d a t i o n ? MR NHLEKO: N o , I a m n o t n e c e s s a r i l y a w a re o f a n y o t h e r e x c e p t t h e “ s u b m i s si o n r o u t e ” a s i t i s c a l l e d . 20 ADV HULLEY SC: A n d o f c o u r s e , yo u . . . t h e a p p e n d i n g o f y o u r si g n a t u r e i n t h e c a se o f . . . t h o se i n st a n ce s t h a t y o u w e re a w a re o f . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MR NHLEKO: Right. ADV HULLEY SC: . . . t h e a p p e n d i n g o f y o u r si g n a t u re i s a v e r y i m p o rt a n t a s p e ct t o c o n v e y y o u r a c k n o w l e d g m e n t t h a t Page 26 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 you have made the recommendation. M R N H L E K O : O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: And then it has got to go through a third l e g . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y. Mr N h l e k o , d o r a i s e y o u r v o i c e s o t h a t I c a n h e a r y o u r a n s w e r s. MR NHLEKO: Oh, ja. No, no, no. I keep on agreeing with m i st e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. 10 MR NHLEKO: Ja and so. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , t h a t i s f i n e . T h a t i s f i n e . I t i s j u st t h a t y o u a r e c o m p e t i n g w i t h t h e n o i s e o f t h e h e a t b u t i t i s o k a y. J u st . . . M R N H L E K O : O k a y. N o , n o , n o . I w i l l t r y m y b e st C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R N H L E K O : T h a n k s ve r y m u c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k yo u , M r C h a i r. And then Item 3 says that: 20 “ T h e D I / P H a p p r o v e s/ d i sa p p r o ve s c o m p l e t i o n a n d t h e c o m p l e t i o n r e g i st e r i s u t i l i s e d a n d i t h a s g o t so m e code...” B u t w e r e a l l y n e e d n o t t o w o rr y a b o u t t h e c o d e . But u l t i m a t e l y i t m u st b e f o r t h e D I / P H t o a p p ro v e / d i s a p p r o v e c o m p l e t i o n a n d t h e c o m p l e t i o n r e g i st e r. Page 27 of 239 S o , i n o t h e r w o rd s, 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 t h e r e a r e t h r e e l e v e l s b e f o r e a r e p o rt i s u l t i m a t e l y a p p r o v e d . Wo u l d t h a t b e c o r re ct ? MR NHLEKO: Ja-no, I hear you. ADV HULLEY SC: Now what we know in the case in this m a t t e r, w e d o k n o w t h a t a n d w e h a ve d e b a t e d i t f o r s o m e t i m e o f t h e ye a r, w e d o k n o w t h a t i n s o f a r a s M r K h u b a i s c o n ce r n e d , h i s p a rt i c u l a r r e p o rt b e i n g t h e re p o rt o f t h e 2 2 n d o f J a n u a r y, w a s si g n e d o n l y b y h i m . I s t h a t c o r re ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: N o w, p i c ki n g u p o n a n o t h e r t o p i c t h a t w e h a ve d e a l t w i t h ye st e r d a y. CHAIRPERSON: B e f o re y o u g o t o a n o t h e r t o p i c M r H u l l e y a n d y o u m a y h a ve c o ve r e d t h i s a n g l e b u t I j u st w a n t t o m a k e sure. I se e M r N h l e k o t h a t We r k s m a n s i n t h e i r re p o rt t o y o u also quotes Regulation 5(1) of the regulations under the IPID A ct . MR NHLEKO: Right. CHAIRPERSON: A n d I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e y h a ve q u o t e d t h e whole... the sub-regulation 1 here or not because where they 20 st a rt e d , t h e y d o n o t st a rt w i t h a c a p i t a l l e t t e r. T h e y st a rt w i t h a sm a l l l e t t e r. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: But they quote: “A f t e r c o l l e ct i n g all e vi d e n c e , st a t e m e n t s and t e c h n i c a l o r e xp e rt r e p o rt s, i f a p p l i c a b l e , su b m i t s a Page 28 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 re p o rt o n t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n o f t h e o ff e n c e t o t h e e x e cu t i v e d i r e ct o r o r t h e r e l e v a n t p ro v i n ci a l h e a d a s the case re g a r d i n g may be, co n t a i n i n g f u rt h e r a ct i o n re c o m m e n d a t i o n s which may i n cl u d e d i s ci p l i n a r y m e a s u r e s t o b e t a k e n a g a i n st a m e m b e r o f t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e S e r vi c e o r t h e M u n i ci p a l Police S e r vi c e or cri m i n a l prosecution of such m e m b e r. . . ” I t h i n k I s a w, i t m i g h t b e a f u l l r e g u l a t i o n f i l e w h e r e t h e 10 s u g g e st i o n o r w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e t h e p o si t i o n i s t h a t a r e p o rt m u st b e a p p r o v e d b y t h e e x e c u t i ve d i re ct o r. I s t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u r e ca l l a s h a vi n g b e e n i n t h e p o si t i o n ? I k n o w t h a t y o u h a ve s a i d y e st e rd a y t h e re i s n o l a w t h a t s a y s a re p o rt m u st b e s i g n e d b y t h e E x e c u t i ve D i r e ct o r o f I P I D . B u t I s e e m t o t h i n k t h a t I s a w s o m e t h i n g s a yi n g t h e re g u l a t i o n s r e q u i r e t h e e x e c u t i v e d i re ct o r t o a p p r o v e b u t h e r e i t s a y s t h e r e p o rt m u st b e . . . “A f t e r 20 all e vi d e n ce has been c o l l e ct e d , the st a t e m e n t s a n d e x p e rt r e p o rt s a p p l i c a b l e , m u st b e s u b m i t t e d t o t h e e x e cu t i v e d i r e ct o r o r t h e p r o vi n ci a l head as the case may be containing re c o m m e n d a t i o n s. . . ” A n d m a y b e t h a t m i g h t m e a n . . . t h i s p a rt i c u l a r p a rt d o e s n o t se e m t o s a y s o w h a t i s q u o t e d h e r e b u t i t m a y b e t h a t Page 29 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 the purpose of submitting is that he or she should approve. I d o n o t k n o w. W h a t i s y o u r re c o l l e ct i o n a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a re q u i r e m e n t that the e x e c u t i ve d i re ct o r sh o u l d approve, w h e t h e r h e m u st si g n o r n o t si g n b u t h e s h o u l d a p p r o v e t h e re p o rt ? D o y o u h a v e a n y r e co l l e ct i o n o f w h a t . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] MR NHLEKO: J u st t w o t h i n g s C h a i r. I t h i n k t h e f i r st o n e i s t h a t . . . I t h i n k w h e n M r Yu l e a p p e a r s, h e w i l l p r o b a b l y cl a ri f y t h a t i s s u e a n d t h e r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t p a rt i cu l a r s e ct i o n o f t h e 10 re g u l a t i o n s. T h e r e a re t w o p r o c e s s e s h e re t h a t s h o u l d a l s o s o m e h o w . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] A n d s o t h e f i r st o n e . T h e a p p l i ca b i l i t y o f y o u r st a n d a r d o p e r a t i n g p r o c e d u r e s i t i s m o r e t o d o w i t h i n t e r n a l c o n t r o l s, o k a y. N o w a n d t h e . . . n o , n o t t h e r e g u l a t i o n s. The Standard Operating Procedure as quoted by Mr Hulley for an example, places an Because if emphases you are on quality a s s u ra n c e . the executive d i r e ct o r P re c i se l y. you are a s u p e r vi s o r, o k a y. 20 S o yo u w i l l e s s e n t i a l l y n e e d t o s a t i sf y y o u r se l f t h a t t h e w o r k t h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e d o n e i s c o m p l e t e , ri g h t . N o w t h a t i s a n i n t e r n a l p r o c e s s m a t t e r w i t h i n t h e i n st i t u t i o n . B u t si g n i n g o ff a . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] R e m e m b e r. . . o r l e t m e t ry a n d m a k e a p r a ct i c a l e x a m p l e . S u p p o se t h e H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r i s a n i n v e st i g a t o r a n d r e p o rt s t o , I w o u l d h a v e s a t i sf i e d Page 30 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 m y se l f t h a t i n d e e d y o u . . . t h i s r e p o r t i s o ka y, i t i s f i n e , o ka y. Yo u . . . w h a t e v e r, y o u k n o w i s s u e s o f st a n d a r d t h a t I w o u l d h a ve t o l o o k i n t o t h a t g o v e r n a n ce t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h y o u , y o u k n o w, c o n st i t u t e d o r c o n st ru ct e d y o u r re p o rt a n d s o on. N o w e s s e n t i a l l y, I w o u l d h a v e t o t h e n s a y t o yo u i t i s fine. Yo u ca n n o w r e f e r t h i s r e p o r t t o t h e N PA o r w h a t e v e r a u t h o ri t y, o k a y. So that is the Standard Operating Procedure. 10 N o w, the issue I was r a i si n g is that the Standard Operating Procedure should not be equated to law that says i t i s c o m p u l s o r y f o r a n e x e c u t i v e d i r e ct o r t o si g n o ff a n i n v e st i g a t i o n re p o rt . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o , n o . I u n d e r st a n d t h a t . M R N H L E K O : S o t h a t i s a d i st i n ct i o n I w a s l o o ki n g a t . CHAIRPERSON: B u t m u st I t a k e y o u r r e s p o n se t o b e t h a t i t w a s w i t h i n y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g a t t h e re l e v a n t t i m e t h a t i n terms of internal procedures within IPID, the e x e c u t i ve d i re ct o r w o u l d h a v e b e e n re q u i r e d t o h a v e se e n t h e r e p o rt 20 for purposes of quality assurance that that would have been y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g ? M R N H L E K O : T h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n , ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t . ADV HULLEY SC: Thank you, . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 31 of 239 Mr C h a i r. If I can 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r ry. B u t y o u a r e . . . a re yo u s a yi n g , as far as the regulations are concerned, you do not or you d o h a ve a re c o l l e ct i o n t h a t y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g w a s t h a t e v e n t h e r e g u l a t i o n s r e q u i r e d t h e a p p r o v a l o f t h e d i re ct o r ? y o u a r e s a yi n g , “I d o n o t r e m e m b e r. O r, I do not know what... w h e t h e r t h e r e g u l a t i o n s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R N H L E K O : N o , i t m i g h t r e q u i r e f ro m m e t o h a v e a re a d ( ? ) . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J a . 10 MR NHLEKO: . . . b u t I re a l l y d o n o t h a v e a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e re g u l a t i o n s. . . b e c a u se r e g u l a t i o n s, b y t h e w a y . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R N H L E K O : . . . t h e y a r e n o t st a n d - a l o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : [ I n d i st i n ct ] M R N H L E K O : Ye s. N o , t h e y a re n o t st a n d - a l o n e . T h e y f a l l o ff f r o m l e g i s l a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , i t i s f i n e . 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. A n d a l t h o u g h r e a l l y d e a l w i t h t h i s i s s u e b u t j u st t o r o u n d o ff t h e i s s u e o n p a g e 1572. Yo u w i l l s e e t h e r e t h a t 1 5 7 2 d e a l s a l s o w i t h t h e cl o si n g o f f i l e s. A n d w i t h o u t b e l a b o u ri n g t h e p o i n t , i t f o l l o w s t h e s a m e p r o c e s s a s i n re l a t i o n t o t h e c o m p l e t i o n o f f i l e s w h e r e t h e Page 32 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 p r o c e s s o f t h e cl o s u r e o f t h e f i l e i s i n i t i a t e d t h r o u g h t h e s u p e r vi s o r. S o r ry, i s i n i t i a t e d b y t h e c a se w o r ke r t h r o u g h t h e s u p e r vi s o r. A n d t h e n i t i s e s c a l a t e d w h e re t h e su p e r vi s o r h a s t o re v i e w a n d q u a l i t y a s su r e t h e r e p o rt a n d t h e n h a s t o m a k e a re c o m m e n d a t i o n t o t h e D I / P H . And then u l t i m a t e l y, the DI/PH m u st approve or d i s a p p r o v e t h e cl o s u r e o f t h e . . . a n d i n t h e cl o s e d r e g i st e r i s utilised. 10 S o i t i s e s se n t i a l l y a p i e r t i e r s y st e m o f i n i t i a t i n g , e i t h e r t h e c o m p l e t i o n o f t h e f i l e o r t h e c l o si n g o f t h e f i l e . Is that c o r r e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, I h e a r yo u si r. ADV HULLEY SC: N o w, i f w e c a n t u r n t o . . . I w o u l d l i k e t o t u r n t o a n a d d i t i o n a l i s s u e b u t b e f o r e I d o s o , I j u st w a n t t o m a k e i t cl e a r t h a t , a s I u n d e r st a n d yo u r e vi d e n c e , y o u a r e n o t su g g e st i n g t h a t i n t e r n a l l y t h e r e i s n o o b l i g a t i o n t o c o m p l y w i t h t h e S t a n d a r d O p e ra t i n g P ro c e d u r e ? That is not your point, is it? 20 MR NHLEKO: Operating The... P r o ce d u r e is as the terms p r e ci s e l y st a n d s, because you Standard need to c o m p l y a n d a d h e r e t o c e rt a i n st a n d a r d s o f f u n ct i o n a l i t y. T h a t i s w h y i t i s c a l l e d S t a n d a r d O p e r a t i n g P r o ce d u re s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , si r. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. Page 33 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HULLEY SC: N o w, i n so f a r a s t h e t w o re p o rt s. . . a n d I m o v i n g o n t o a s e p a r a t e t o p i c n o w, b u t i n s o f a r a s t h e t w o re p o rt s a re c o n c e rn e d , y o u w i l l r e c a l l t h a t , o n c e a g a i n , t h a t t h e r e w a s t h e 2 2 Ja n u a r y r e p o rt w h i c h h a d b e e n si g n e d b y Mr Khuba alone and there was the 18 March report which had been signed by Mr Khuba, Mr Sesoko, and of course, by M r M c B ri d e . N o w, then you a p p ro a c h e d m i st e r. . . or when yo u approached IPID through your letter of the 24th of November 10 of 2014 and asked him for the case... for the case docket in re s p e ct o f t h e re n d i t i o n m a t t e r. M r M c B ri d e r e sp o n d e d b y s e n d i n g y o u t h e l e t t e r o f t h e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r i n w h i c h h e p ro vi d e d yo u w i t h t h e f u l l c a s e d o c ke t . I s t h a t c o rr e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, si r. ADV HULLEY SC: A n d p u r s u a n t t o t h a t . . . o r r a t h e r, i n t h a t d o c ke t . . . i n t h a t d o c u m e n t , h e e x p l a i n e d t o y o u t h a t t h e d o c ke t w a s. . . t h e o r i g i n a l d o c k e t w a s a t t h e N a t i o n a l D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c P r o se c u t i o n s. 20 M R N H L E K O : I a m l i st e n i n g si r. ADV HULLEY SC: We l l , i f y o u h a v e g o t t h e r e c o l l e ct i o n , t h e n I w o u l d h a v e t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n t i o n . . . s o r ry. I f y o u h a v e n o re c o l l e ct i o n , I w i l l h a ve t o d r a w y o u r a t t e n t i o n t o t h e d o cu m e n t . M R N H L E K O : O k a y. Page 34 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HULLEY SC: So if you will just bear with me. CHAIRPERSON: S o m e b o d y m u st j u st m a ke s u r e e a c h t i m e t h e r e i s a re f e r e n c e t o a d i ff e re n t f i l e t h a t t h e w i t n e s s i s g i v e n t h e f i l e t h a t i s re f e rr e d t o , u n l e s s . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: ...unless he is happy to deal with the q u e st i o n w i t h o u t l o o ki n g a t i t b u t i t i s b e t t e r i f i t i s m a d e a v a i l a b l e s o t h a t h e c a n t h e n e l e ct w h e t h e r h e w a n t s t o h a v e a look or not. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: If you can turn with me to Exhibit Y7 Mr Nhleko? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s, M r H u l l e y. Yo u a r e r i g h t . M R N H L E K O : N o , . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] CHAIRPERSON: S o m e b o d y s h o u l d l o n g h a v e st o o d u p t o t a k e t h e f i l e a n d g i v e i t t o t h e w i t n e s s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: N o , i t i s a l ri g h t C h a i r. C h a i rp e r s o n , I a m re m e m b e ri n g s o m e f e w t h i n g s a b o u t t h a t a d m i n i st r a t i o n . S o . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR NHLEKO: I have already located the Exhibit Y7 file. C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] MR NHLEKO: And I feel so educated by being able to do so. [ l a u g h s] C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] Page 35 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 M R N H L E K O : T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: think we are J a , o k a y. moving Ye s, I m u st s a y t h a t s o f a r I quite s a t i sf a ct o ri l y. So let us . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV HULLEY SC: I d o n o t t h i n k w e s h o u l d j i n x i t M r C h a i r. [ l a u g h s] CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. [ l a u g h s] L e t u s st i c k t o t h a t l a n e . Ye s. J u s t co n f i rm a g a i n M r H u l l e y f o r t h e r e co r d which file? 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th i s i s E x h i b i t Y 7 . CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit...? ADV HULLEY SC: Y7. CHAIRPERSON: Is it Y7? A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s o n e o f t h e s e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] b u n d l e s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: I t i s t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a vi t o f M r R o b e rt M c B ri d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w i f yo u t u rn f o r m e t o p a g e 1 4 4 . 20 CHAIRPERSON: 144? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct , M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ? ADV HULLEY SC: To p l a c e t h i s i n c o n t e xt M r N h l e k o . This i s t h e l e t t e r t h a t w e r e f e rr e d t o , a t l e a st ye st e r d a y a n d t h e day before. It is the letter of Page 36 of 239 Mr M c B ri d e dated the 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 2 8 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 w h i c h i s a d d r e s s e d t o yo u a s t h e m i n i st e r t h a t i t i s r e s p o n d i n g t o y o u r e a rl i e r l e t t e r o f t h e 2 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r. I s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, t h a t i s c o rr e ct s i r. A D V H U L L E Y S C : I f yo u t u r n w i t h m e t o p a g e 1 4 4 u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g “ co n cl u si o n ” a t t h e f o o t o f t h a t p a g e ? MR NHLEKO: H’m. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Mr M c B ri d e sa y s t h a t t h e . . . i n t h e s e c o n d p a r a g ra p h b e n e a t h t h a t h e a d i n g : 10 “The recommendation with the entire docket and e vi d e n t i a r y m a t e r i a l w a s f o r w a rd e d t o t h e o ff i c e o f t h e N a t i o n a l D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c P r o s e cu t i o n s o n t h e 1 4 t h o f A p ri l 2 0 1 4 . O n t h e s a m e d a y a d i s ci p l i n a r y r e c o m m e n d a t i o n w a s forwarded to the o ff i c e of the National C o m m i s si o n e r. . . ” MR NHLEKO: Alright. ADV HULLEY SC: D i d yo u e v e r f o l l o w u p w i t h t h e N a t i o n a l D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c P r o s e c u t i o n s t o c o n f i rm w h e t h e r h e d i d 20 indeed have the o ri g i n a l case docket with the re c o m m e n d a t i o n s ? MR NHLEKO: A follow up was made and I think that would a l s o b e c o m e m u c h m o re cl e a r a s a n d w h e n w e g e t t o t h e t e st i m o n y t h a t w o u l d b e l e d b y M r Yu l e s p e c i f i ca l l y i n t h e c o n st r u ct i o n o f t h e . . . o f w h a t i s c o m m o n l y r e f e rr e d t o a s t h e Page 37 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 We r k sm a n s re p o rt . And it would also reveal the internal communication e v e n w i t h i n t h e N a t i o n a l P r o se c u t i n g A u t h o ri t y i n r e g a r d t o t h i s m a t t e r. ADV HULLEY SC: So would it be fair if I... p a r a p h r a s e i t , t o t r y a n d u n d e r st a n d y o u r r e s p o n s e ? it be fair to e xt ra ct from that that yo u r j u st to Wo u l d r e s p o n se is i n v e st i g a t i o n o r t h e f o l l o w u p i n re l a t i o n t o w h e t h e r t h e d o c ke t w a s w i t h t h e N a t i o n a l D i r e ct o r o f P u b l i c P r o s e c u t i o n s 10 w a s i n f a ct d o n e b y We r k sm a n s ? M R N H L E K O : I t w a s t h r o u g h We r k s m a n s, t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n . A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o w, i f y o u co u l d t u r n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MR NHLEKO: C h a i r, c o u l d I j u st a s k ? I t i s e xt r e m e l y c o l d . I t i s e xt r e m e l y c o l d C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR NHLEKO: Ye s. I a m s u re t h a t i s a . . . i f y o u a re i n a m o rt u a r y, t h i s i s h o w i t f e e l s, I s u s p e ct . CHAIRPERSON: [ l a u g h s] We l l , I c a n y o u t h a t M r H u l l e y t o l d m e o n M o n d a y w h i c h w a s h i s f i r st d a y o f l e a d i n g 20 e vi d e n c e h e r e t h a t h e c o m p l a i n t o f e xt r e m e co l d . N o w I h a v e b e e n h e r e f o r a w e e k s n o w h e a ri n g e vi d e n c e b u t I h a v e h a d t h e b e n e f i t o f so m e s m a l l h e a t e r s a s w e l l . S o I m i g h t n o t b e e x a ct l y i n t h e s a m e p o si t i o n . I think they are going to try and see what can be done. The q u e st i o n is whether that Page 38 of 239 is m a ki n g it colder 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MR NHLEKO: And the nose. CHAIRPERSON: ...and that... and maybe if it is maybe that i t m i g h t b e l e s s c o l d w i t h o u t i t t h a n w i t h i t . [ l a u g h s] M R N H L E K O : H ’ m . P o s si b l e . P o s si b l e . CHAIRPERSON: T h e re l e v a n t p e r s o n h a s g o n e o u t . t h e y w i l l se e w h a t c a n b e d o n e . I think P l e a s e r a i s e yo u r c o n ce r n a g a i n i f . . . a f t e r s o m e t i m e y o u d o n o t f e e l a n y d i ff e r e n c e . There might not be much we can do other than switching 10 i t o ff a n d o n b e ca u s e i t i s a b i g v e n u e a n d t h e r e f o r e , I t h i n k i t t a ke s t i m e . B u t a l s o I d o n o t k n o w h o w e ff e ct i v e i t i s b u t I h a v e h a d t h a t s o m e t i m e s p e o p l e h a ve f e l t i t , a t l e a st s o m e sl i g h t w a rm t h . I h a ve n o t h a d a n y b o d y s a yi n g i t f e e l s v e r y w a rm h e r e . [ l a u g h s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : [ l a u g h s] M R N H L E K O : I t i s t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e a d v a n t a g e v e r s u s t h e d i s a d va n t a g e d . [ l a u g h s] C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] 20 M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] ADV HULLEY SC: I think we are disadvantaged in the c u r r e n t e n vi r o n m e n t M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. We l l , I s e e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e r e a r e d e g r e e s o f d i s a d v a n t a g e . M R N H L E K O : Ye s. [ l a u g h s] Page 39 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k w h e n y o u sa y a d va n t a g e , h e l o o k s a t m e . [ l a u g h s] M R N H L E K O : Ye s. [ l a u g h s] C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e ca u s e o f t h e h e a t e r s. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t I t h i n k t h e o n e I h a v e t o d a y, I a l s o d o n o t . . . ye st e r d a y, I h a d t w o a n d I t h i n k o n e w a s n o t e ff e ct i v e . To d a y I h a v e g o t o n e . I t d o e sn ’ t f e e l a n y d i ff e r e n t f r o m y e st e r d a y. O k a y l e t u s c o n t i n u e a n d h o p e f u l l y s o m e t h i n g w i l l 10 be done. I h a v e b e e n t o l d t h i s ve n u e , t h i s b u i l d i n g i s o l d . o f t h e i n f r a st r u ct u re i s n o t g o o d . Some So some of the things that o n e w o u l d e x p e ct a r e n o t b e ca u s e i t i s a n o l d b u i l d i n g w i t h o l d i n f r a st r u ct u re b u t l e t u s s e e . I t h i n k p r o b a b l y y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n w e l l - a d vi s e d t o p u t o n a j e r s e y a s w e l l . [ l a u g h s] M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: M r H u l l e y w h e n h e f e l t i t w a s e xt re m e l y c o l d o n M o n d a y, h e a l so d i d n o t h a v e a j e r s e y. 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y e st e r d a y h e h a d a j e r se y o n a s w e l l . MR NHLEKO: H’m. H’m. CHAIRPERSON: st a rt e d h e r e . S o I h a v e b e e n w e a ri n g a j e r s e y si n c e w e O k a y l e t u s c o n t i n u e a n d j u st d o ra i s e yo u r c o n ce r n s a g a i n l a t e r o n i f w e c o n t i n u e t o f e e l e xt r e m e l y c o l d . Page 40 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 Ye s, M r H u l l e y ? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. N o w, a s re g a r d s t h e t w o r e p o rt s, t h e . . . i f I u n d e r s t o o d c o r re ct l y f r o m y o u r t e st i m o n y y e st e rd a y, yo u h a d r e c e i v e d t h e f i r st r e p o rt . That i s t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y re p o rt , s i g n e d . A n d yo u k n o w t h a t i t h a d b e e n o b t a i n e d t h r o u g h y o u r i n t e r n a l st r u ct u r e s b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w p r e ci s e l y b y w h o m . I f I u n d e r st o o d y o u r t e st i m o n y, y o u s a i d i t l a n d e d o n yo u r desk and you do not know who might have placed it there? 10 C o rr e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, I a m l i st e n i n g s i r. ADV HULLEY SC: which was dated A n d o n t h e . . . a n d t h e se c o n d r e p o rt the 18th of M a r ch of 2014, that was p r o vi d e d t o y o u b y t h e . . . b y M r M c B ri d e t h ro u g h t h e l e t t e r o r attached to the letter together with the docket on the 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 . I s t h a t c o rr e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, I a m f o l l o w i n g s i r. ADV HULLEY SC: N o w, w h e n yo u . . . w h e n o n e l o o k. . . c o n si d e r s t h e t w o re p o rt s a n d i t i s a p r o p o si t i o n I p u t t o y o u 20 y e st e r d a y b u t w e d i d n o t g e t a r o u n d t o f u l l y v e n t i l a t e i t . B u t w h e n o n e c o n si d e r s t h e t w o re p o rt s, t h e s e c o n d re p o rt . . . t h e r e w a s n o su g g e st i o n t h a t t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt h a d p a s se d i t s e l f o ff a s t h e f i r st r e p o rt . T h e se c o n d r e p o r t w a s a r e p o rt d a t e d 2 2 . . . s o r ry, d a t e d 18 March 2014. I t d i d n o t p u rp o rt . . . i t p a s s e d i t s e l f o ff a s a Page 41 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 re p o rt d a t e d t h e 2 2 n d o f J a n u a r y o f 2 0 1 4 . Wo u l d t h a t b e f a i r t o sa y ? MR NHLEKO: M a y b e l e t u s t r y s o m e si m p l e r E n g l i s h . I do n o t k n o w. A r e yo u s a yi n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : S h a l l I st a rt o n e st e p a t a t i m e t h e n ? MR NHLEKO: H’m. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Fi r st l y, l e t u s l o o k a t t h e d a t e . MR NHLEKO: this 10 point No, I hear that part but let me... let me get c o r r e ct l y. Are you sa yi n g there is a 2 2 n d o f J a n u a r y r e p o rt w h i c h h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h e 1 8 t h o f M a r c h r e p o rt ? I s t h a t w h a t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV HULLEY SC: [ I n d i st i n ct ] n o t h i n g t o d o . T h a t i s p a rt . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] t h a t I a m c o n v e yi n g t o y o u . M R N H L E K O : N o , I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t t w o d i st i n ct re p o rt s ? ADV HULLEY SC: I a m s a yi n g t h a t t h e 2 0 . . . t h e 1 8 M a r c h re p o rt d o e s n o t p u r p o rt t o b e t h e 2 2 J a n u a r y r e p o rt . MR NHLEKO: It could not be. It is dated the 18th of March. S o i t c o u l d n o t b e t h e 2 2 n d J a n u a r y re p o rt b e c a u s e i t i s d a t e d t h e 1 8 t h o f M a r c h . S o t h a t i s w h y I w a s s a yi n g , l e t u s m a y b e 20 t r y a n d , y o u k n o w, s e p a r a t e t h e t w o . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e . . . l e t m e a s k t h i s q u e st i o n a n d I think it might go back to an issue we have discussed y e st e r d a y. I s t h e r e a n y r e a so n w h y t h e re p o rt o f t h e 1 8 t h o f M a r c h c o u l d n o t b e t a ke n a s a r e p l a c e m e n t o f t h e re p o rt o f t h e 2 2 n d o f Ja n u a r y? Page 42 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: I t h i n k . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] C h a i r e a rl i e r o n i t s h o u l d b e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] I h a ve b e e n s i t t i n g i n t h i s f r e e zi n g p l a c e . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] I b r i e f l y s p o k e t o t h i s i s s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s. B u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MR NHLEKO: I e v e n r e f e rr e d . . . y e s, I e v e n r e f e r r e d t o t h e q u e st i o n o f w h a t t h e c o n ve n t i o n i s , y o u k n o w, e ve n w o rl dwise. If you produce another report that has got to another o n e , y o u st a t e s o . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: o n e ”. Yo u t h e n s a y, “ L o o k, t h i s r e p o rt a n n u l s t h a t S o I a m w i t h d r a w i n g t h a t o n e , re p l a ci n g i t w i t h t h i s o n e , o k a y. S o t h a t i s w h a t p r a ct i c e a n d a c o n ve n t i o n w o u l d h a ve . I t w o u l d a l s o b e i n t e r e st i n g t h a t w i t h r e g a r d s t o e x a ct l y t h i s sp e ci f i c i s s u e t o g et t h e p r o s e c u t o r s i n t h e N PA b e c a u s e t h e y s p o ke t o t h i s i s s u e a s w e l l . T h e y h a d a re a ct i o n t o i t i n re l a t i o n t o a s e c o n d r e p o rt t h a t t h e y t h e n r e ce i ve d . S o m y cl a ri f i ca t i o n w o u l d b e t h a t i f t h e n t h a t i s t h e c a s e , 20 b e ca u s e I d o n o t t h i n k w e s h o u l d b e u n d e r st o o d i n sa y i n g y o u ca n n o t r e p l a c e a r e p o rt . B u t i f y o u r e p l a c e a r e p o rt , st a t e t h a t y o u a r e r e p l a ci n g t h a t r e p o rt a n d i t i s r e p l a c e d b y t h i s o n e , o k a y. A n d st a t e y o u r r e a s o n s a s t o w h y y o u t h i n k t h i s i s c o rr e ct , y o u k n o w. I a m j u st m a ki n g a n e x a m p l e . Ja, I wanted to look at that Page 43 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. N o , I h e a r. . . I t h i n k w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d i s, i t d o e s cl a r i f y t o q u i t e a l a rg e e xt e n t w h a t I h a d i n mind. I think probably what Mr Hulley also had in mind but I a m l o o ki n g a t h i m , h e i s n o t n o d d i n g . [ l a u g h s] So he m i g h t . . . b u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MR NHLEKO: He hardly ever does nod. CHAIRPERSON: H’m? MR NHLEKO: He hardly ever does nod. 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : [ l a u g h s] C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] CHAIRPERSON: We l l , I h a v e n o t s e e n h i m s h a k e h i s h e a d e i t h e r. S o . B u t l e t m e p u t . . . m a k e t h i s p r o p o si t i o n t o y o u . M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: That what you have said, mainly that if you w a n t t o r e p l a c e a n e a rl i e r r e p o rt w i t h a l a t e r r e p o rt , y o u w i l l m a k e . . . y o u w o u l d w ri t e o r y o u w o u l d m a k e i t c l e a r t h a t t h i s l a t e r r e p o rt r e p l a c e s t h e e a r l i e r o n e . 20 N o w y o u m a y o r m a y n o t g i v e r e a s o n s, y o u kn o w, b u t o b vi o u sl y, i f t h e p e r s o n y o u a r e co n v e yi n g t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n t o s a y s w h y, yo u w o u l d h a ve t o sa y w h y. say something before I move on? Ja. M R N H L E K O : N o , t h a n k s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 44 of 239 O ka y ? Yo u w a n t t o 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: B u t i n t h a t r e g a r d , I t h i n k w h e n w e t ri e d t o cl a ri f y o u r s e l ve s a r o u n d t h i s i s s u e i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h the Chair is doing, at the back of our minds we should not f o r g e t t h e s e a r e i n v e st i g a t i o n r e p o r t s. S o t h e y r e l y l a rg e l y on what is contained in the docket. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R N H L E K O : I n t h e st a t e m e n t s t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. MR 10 NHLEKO: S o I w o u l d su p p o se b e c a u se I a m n o t s p e a k i n g f o r t h e N PA o r f o r p r o s e c u t o r s b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w h o w t h e y w o r k. Regardless of the allegations that I h a ve n o w c a p t u r e d t h e m . B u t t h e p o i n t i s. C e rt a i n l y, t h e y w o u l d h a v e t o f a ct o r t h e w h y q u e st i o n w h e n y o u c o m e i n w i t h t h e s e co n d r e p o rt t h a t s a y s, “ N o , I a m n u l l i f yi n g t h e o t h e r o n e ”. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R N H L E K O : S o i t w o u l d m e a n i t w i l l t a k e t h e m b a c k, a l l o f t h e m , t h i s i n v e st i g a t i n g o ff i c e r s a n d t h e p r o s e cu t o r s . It will b e h a v e t o t a k e t h e m b a c k t o t h e c o n st i t u t i n g m a t e ri a l w h i c h 20 in that case is referred to as the docket. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. No, no, no. I u n d e r st a n d t h a t . I am st a rt i n g f r o m t h e g e n e r a l b e f o r e g o i n g t o t h e sp e ci f i c. M R N H L E K O : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: I a m su g g e st i n g t o y o u t h a t y o u m a y n o t n e e d a l w a y s t o e x p l a i n w h y y o u a re re p l a ci n g o n e r e p o rt w i t h Page 45 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 a n o t h e r, a n e a rl i e r r e p o rt w i t h a l a t e r r e p o rt b u t o b vi o u sl y, i f t h e p e r s o n yo u a r e g i vi n g t h e r e p o r t a s k s t h e q u e st i o n w h y, y o u w o u l d h a v e t o e xp l a i n , y o u k n o w. But I am imagining if o n e o f m y st a ff w a s u n d e r s t o o d t o – t h e n w e w o u l d r e s u m e at quarter past eleven. ADV HULLEY SC: That is the impression I got. I thought it was incredibly generous. CHAIRPERSON: No, I am under the impression that I said let us make it a tea break so the adjournment would be a 10 tea break and we would resume at eleven but it is fine, let u s c o n t i n u e n o w. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. Mr Nhleko, before the adjournment, we were dealing with the question of the two reports and what it is that you would have expected a person to do if it was the intention to annul or to change a previous report. Now you have indicated that one would have expected in the new report to indicate that you have changed the old report. Do I understand correctly? 20 MR NHLEKO: Ye s , s i r, I t h i n k I m u s t h a v e s a i d t h a t . ADV HULLEY SC: terms. Now you are speaking in general I f I u n d e r s t o o d y o u c o r r e c t l y, y o u a r e s a y i n g w e l l , you do not what the processes are within IPID but if I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t l y, s p e a k i n g g e n e r a l l y t h a t i s w h a t you would have expected. Page 46 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: would want Look, if you say general terms, perhaps I to qualify that because, you k n o w, in government there are no general terms, there are practices there and conventions and regulations and laws. Now – because if you say general terms, it is as if you are referring to any other form of a report including a newspaper report. I mean, it cannot be. CHAIRPERSON: But maybe because we were discussing this point earlier on and …[intervenes] 10 MR NHLEKO: Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: …I think we had not finalised it when the electricity went off. Let me also come in. This is the proposition I wanted to put to you when the electricity was – supply was interrupted, namely that even if – or let me p u t i t t h i s w a y, i s t h e p o s i t i o n n o t t h a t e v e n i f t h e p e r s o n w h o i s s u p p o s e d t o g i v e y o u a r e p o r t o n a c e r t a i n m a t t e r, is the position that even if he does not or she does not say I am withdrawing the earlier report, if having given you a r e p o r t e a r l i e r o n a s u b j e c t m a t t e r, h e o r s h e g i v e s y o u a 20 later report and s u b j e c t m a t t e r. the later report deals with the same Unless there is something in the later report that suggests that the later report does not replace the earlier report, it would reasonable to take it that the later report replaces the earlier report. So, in other words, unless the later report says or Page 47 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 unless the person tells you you have got to read both, you need both, if the later report deals with the same subject m a t t e r, i t w o u l d b e r e a s o n a b l e t o t a k e t h e l a t e r r e p o r t a s replacing the earlier report, even if they did not say anything - if you read both, you might say it cannot be intended that they both stand at the same time, one of them falls. MR NHLEKO: I like the last point, one of them falls. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR NHLEKO: The falling part. The one of the falling part, I like that. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: O k a y. I l i k e t h a t , h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, b u t t h e p o i n t really is, is that – and I think I tried to clarify this point. L o o k , i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r i n s t a n c e , f o r a n e x a m p l e , C h a i r, a report does not produce the docket but it is the docket that produces the report. So it works the other way around. Now the docket is the basis that constitutes the essential body of the report, right? CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR NHLEKO: O n t h e d o c k e t , y e s , e x a c t l y. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: The report will be based on the docket. Ja, not the other way around. E x a c t l y. And I think the wonderful points t h a t – o r p r o p o s i t i o n s t h a t y o u a l s o , y o u k n o w, p u t t o m e yesterday which made me think in a way because, you k n o w, I t h i n k i t w a s i n t h e p r o c e s s o f t h i n k i n g , t h a t w e Page 48 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 needed to reflect on some of these things but you – I am then saying even if we are not talking of an investigation report because an investigation report is a very serious m a t t e r, i t i s a v e r y s e r i o u s r e p o r t b e c a u s e i t b a s e s i t s e l f o n statements collected, the analysis of evidence and whatever else and so on, are they at a prima facie level and so on. But I also do think that the question that the Chair is posing is well actually suited for the National Prosecuting Authority to respond. 10 Right? What was their understanding and is it their understanding based on law that you could produce a second report and if you want to produce a third report, if you want to, and your understanding should always be that because the report is the latest, it replaces the first, the second and the third report. I am just making an example. I think, for me, I would also be very interested in that. B u t I a m f u r t h e r s a y i n g , C h a i r, t h a t , y o u k n o w, convention has it. If you produce a report you must then state that this report that you are now producing replaces 20 the other report on the same subject matter that you must filed at some point and you must advance your reasons. I mean here because you are talking of matters that related to law in criminal prosecution you would have to state your r e a s o n s w h y y o u a r e n o w c h a n g i n g a n d , y o u k n o w, f a i l i n g a later report of any sorts and they would have to be cogent Page 49 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 kind of reasons, I should think. N o w, s o – a n d t h a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g w e s h o u l d draw the distinction around this particular matter but I am also very interested understands by this to hear what the because there were N PA itself particular reactions the side of the prosecutors that were assigned to a s s i s t I P I D i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r i n v e s t i g a t i o n i n , y o u k n o w, their reaction in relation to the second report. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR NHLEKO: No, I understand that part. Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: But remember that, as I understood your e v i d e n c e y e s t e r d a y, t h e r e p o r t i s n o t j u s t f o r t h e N PA , i t i s a l s o f o r y o u , a s M i n i s t e r, a t t h e t i m e , a s I u n d e r s t o o d i t because you may have to make a decision with regard to disciplinary matters. So, is that correct, is my understanding correct? MR NHLEKO: Look …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: If they recommend disciplinary action, I understood you to say you would have to make those 20 d e c i s i o n s i n r e g a r d t o d i s c i p l i n a r y m a t t e r s b u t t h e N PA would have to make decisions in regard criminal…[intervenes] MR NHLEKO: On prosecutory matters, yes. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Ye s . M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s c o r r e c t ? Ye s . Page 50 of 239 to 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, s o I a m s a y i n g w h i l e t h e N PA’ s understanding of this question I am raising might also be important but it is important also in regard to you because you were expected to make decisions in regard to disciplinary matters and when this issue of whether the first report was final or not arises, so it arises in regard to both those who were supposed to make decisions on criminal matters and you are supposed to make a decision on the disciplinary matters. 10 MR NHLEKO: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So your own understanding becomes important and that is why I posed the question and I invite your own understanding what it was. MR NHLEKO: Ye s , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Because the proposition I am putting is that even if the person giving the report does not say this one replaces the earlier one, as you have suggested, I am s a y i n g t o y o u , w h a t a b o u t t h e p r o p o s i t i o n t h a t y o u m a y, when you read the two reports, see that they cannot both 20 be intended to be – to operate and to be valid, only one can and in that case I want to put the proposition that it would be reasonable to think you would say it is the latest one that must be intended as the report and therefore, in that case, it replaces the earlier one, they are not meant to be – you are not supposed to make a decision – to base Page 51 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 your decisions on both particularly when they have material differences. So my suggestion is that – my suggestion to you, Mr Nhleko, is that if you give me a report today and five d a y s l a t e r y o u g i v e m e a n o t h e r o n e d a t e d f i v e d a y s l a t e r, o n t h e s a m e s u b j e c t m a t t e r, a n d y o u d o n o t m a k e a n o t e f o r m e t o s a y I m u s t i g n o r e t h e f i r s t o n e a n d y o u g o a w a y, if I read both and see that there are differences even without asking you, it is reasonable for me to think that I 10 must take the later one as intended to replace the first one. What do you say to that proposition? MR NHLEKO: Honourable Chairperson, I hear you but still disagree with you …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: No, no, this is the opportunity to disagree with the Chairperson. MR NHLEKO: Ye s , I s t i l l d i s a g r e e w i t h y o u , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: approach and Because I want to understand your own understanding how you approached the reports. So it is important for me to understand that. 20 MR NHLEKO: I w o u l d s a y t o y o u , C h a i r, l o o k a t i t f r o m a n a n g l e o f a p e r s o n w h o h a s a n i n s t i t u t i o n a l r e s p o n s i b i l i t y, an institutional responsibility and, of course, in this d e f i n i t i o n , I a m d e l i b e r a t e l y e x c l u d i n g t h e N PA b e c a u s e I think you made a general point. So we are not talking about the specific in this regard, so – but let me also try Page 52 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 and be general. So supervisor here you and your are, you are subordinate a has manager filed a and a particular report, let us say some few weeks ago and this subordinate says this report, this is how it is final and I finalised it, okay? But then the same subordinate comes back three weeks later with another report on the same subject matter and does not refer to the first report and says to you here is a report, it is as if it is a new report, okay? 10 F i r s t l y, t h a t on its own, there is something wrong with that, within that approach, completely wrong, but nevertheless. ignore that as responsibility being a person a manager who of holds Suppose I institutional supervisor of sorts, supervisor of sorts, now I have got take a decision. The dilemma that you then have is that you have two reports before you, all of them valid, valid in a sense that the first one filed three weeks ago has not been withdrawn, is still the same. Now you have a second one which is not a continuation or supplementary to the first one because that 20 is a different matter if it is s u p p l e m e n t a r y, continuation, so you now have a second one. it means Now this second one does not talk to the first one but the subject matter is the same, all you have are material facts that have been removed from the first one to constitute this one. Page 53 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 T h e q u e s t i o n i s , i n t h e e x e c u t i o n o f y o u r d u t y, w h a t do you do? Now if you assume – if you make the assume, a s t h e C h a i r, i n p l a c e , I c a n a s s u r e y o u o f o n e t h i n g , y o u would be introducing institutional instability and turmoil within that very same institution because you are likely to then say no, I assume that a second report is the valid one and therefore on the basis of which I am making this following decisions. decisions 10 are So you make your decisions but your wrong because they could then also be challenged by some of the issues arising out of the first report. So your decision-making shall always be contested and that is why you need to have absolute clarify around these particular matters and I think yourselves, as lawyers, I think you something have like a that, term I that think you that use, is big u n - a m b i g u i t y, English but nevertheless. Yo u k n o w, I t h i n k i t i s a b s o l u t e l y – y o u m u s t h a v e absolute and absolute clarity so that then you are correctly 20 e m p o w e r e d , a s a s u p e r v i s o r, a n d a p e r s o n w h o i s h o l d i n g institutional responsibility to be able to execute your duty and function otherwise - that is my personal opinion, on t h e g e n e r a l , o f c o u r s e , a s p e r t h e p r o p o s i t i o n b y t h e C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: this. Ja. No, I understand you, let me put I think I said yesterday when I put to you the Page 54 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 proposition that the – what do you say about the proposition that the second report may have been or was not and had to replace the first one, I do not necessarily mean that if you thought there was something wrong with the first report or if you thought that arising out of you being given two reports. MR NHLEKO: Right. CHAIRPERSON: The mere fact that the second one is taken as replacing the first one may not necessarily mean 10 that you cannot pursue anything that you think needs to be pursued. MR NHLEKO: Right. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u k n o w, i t i s s i m p l y t o s a y i n t h i s context it is difficult for me to see how you could have thought that the authors of the report intended you to regard both as valid, as continuing to be their report because they had, for example, recommendations that were i n c o n f l i c t w i t h e a c h o t h e r. So once you know that the one report, the later 20 report, has a certain recommendation that is in conflict with a recommendation or that was made in the first report, it seems to me that logically you have to say they cannot be intending that both must be taken as valid. W h a t y o u m a y s t i l l s a y i s o k a y, I a c c e p t t h a t t h e second one is your final but there is some concern I have Page 55 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 and that is why I want to look into something. I do not have a problem that you say you regard this second one as final but that does not remove my concern when I look at what has happened. MR NHLEKO: maybe C h a i r, l e t m e t r y a n d i l l u s t r a t e t h i s p o i n t , d i f f e r e n t l y. And I will come closer to your profession, okay? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: 10 judgment is So you issue a judgment today and this based on certain considerations p r o c e s s i n g u p u n t i l t h e p o i n t o f a n o r d e r. and the Three weeks later – I do not know why I like three weeks later – three w e e k s l a t e r, t h e s a m e j u d g e w r i t e s t h e j u d g m e n t o n t h e s a m e m a t t e r, r i g h t ? A r r i v e s o n a d i f f e r e n t o r d e r. The matter is the same, the material factors are still the same, right? But now what you are confronted with is that right a t t h e t a i l e n d o f t h e j u d g m e n t y o u h a v e a n o r d e r. T h e f i r s t order looks different from the second one. N o w t o a p e r s o n w h o i s t h e r e c i p i e n t o f t h a t o r d e r, 20 what is he or she supposed to do? t h e n f o l l o w, r i g h t ? Which order do you Now – and of course I am not trying to say that investigation reports are equivalent to judgments and orders but I am trying to illustrate this point that you shall always, as a recipient of either a report and/or and order like that, have a problem in terms of which is which Page 56 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 then between the two. But you are also likely to ask yourself one logical question flowing from that issue and that is, how com e this order differs from the other? What are the material factors that brought about this? Now – and that is why I said respectfully I probably disagree with the Chair because the example that you are making is of a general nature, it is any other report like a newspaper article and so on. But 10 now we are talking about institutions of governance which have got to be – their work must be e x e c u t e d e x p l i c i t l y, [ i n d i s t i n c t ] 2 0 . 5 0 a n d c l e a r, y o u k n o w ? That is the thing. So I am not sure that I am satisfied with the Chair ’s …[int ervenes] CHAIRPERSON: I think we are very close to seeing the matter in the same way but I think there is just a little bit of – there is a point where we may not be seeing it exactly the same but let me make this point. With regard to a judgment, judges change their judgments all the time as long as the judgments have not been handed down, okay? 20 Once they have been handed down, they may correct certain things, not substance, okay? But before they are handed down you chop and change. Sometimes five days before the date when you are going to hand it down, you are going this way and one day before handed down you realise no, no, no, no, no, I am completely Page 57 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 w r o n g , y o u g o t h i s w a y. So people do not know how much you agonised and took different twists and turns before ultimately you handed down. Now in the case of the investigation report, one, my understanding is that they presented the second report before you could make any decision on disciplinary m a t t e r s , t h e y p r e s e n t e d t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t b e f o r e t h e N PA could make any decisions, you know? So it may be that as long as the powers that be have not made any decisions it 10 should not be a problem but if they have already made decisions it might be a different issue but I said earlier on, whether you take the report, the second report as final on – as the final one or not, I am not necessarily saying that if when you look at what is said in the final report and you look at what is said in the earlier report, you cannot pursue an issue that you think you should be pursued. So I am working on the basis that even if you accept that the second report is final, that should not necessarily mean that you cannot pursue and issue that is 20 of concern to you arising from looking at the two reports but still accepting that the final one is the same. So that is where I am. I think we are close, we probably – you might not agree and I might be wrong but I think I am not as far apart as we might seem. MR NHLEKO: O k a y, I h e a r y o u , C h a i r. Page 58 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y, a l r i g h t . M r H u l l e y ? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. Just to be clear about the question of the amendment of reports, etcetera, I had asked you whether that was a general proposition or whether you were talking specifically about the amendment of reports in relation to IPID but I want to ask you a slightly different question but on the same proposition. Is there anything within government, either a statute, a regulation or standard operating procedure, a 10 manual that stipulates that before you amend a report or before you produce a second report on the same topic covered by the first report you must refer to the first report and identify to what extent and why you have – identity to what extent you have changed the first report and why you have done so? MR NHLEKO: No, let me refer to practice because I would not recall of course the and/or policy regulations applicable sort of regulations and or policy positions but practice has it in that if you produce a report as contained 20 in what is commonly known as a submission for an example and something changes, whether you want to update that, you will need to produce another report in relation to the first submission that you would have made and point, you k n o w, a n d r e f e r t o i t i n v e r y d i r e c t t e r m s t h a t t h i s r e p o r t that you are now filing is in relation Page 59 of 239 to submission 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 whatever quote of the submission there and the title of the submission and that you are amending it in respect of whatever the issues are that you would then identify in your new submission. So that is what practice is and, of course, I have not worked for each and every government department but at least in the areas that are functioned I know that that is the case. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 there a rule or I am going to follow up on that. practice, statutorial regulation Is which stipulates that if one does not follow this practice of which you speak, that gives rise to misconduct and possibly criminal misconduct? MR NHLEKO: C h a i r, t h a t r e a l l y d e p e n d s o n w h a t e a c h matter would be contained in such a submission and the g r a v i t y t h e r e o f , I m e a n , r e a l l y, s o … ADV HULLEY SC: I am actually putting it at the very general level, I am asking you is there a rule, either a rule that is contained in some instrument, whether it be a 20 statute, a manual, a regulation which stipulates that the mere failure to follow this practice of which you speak, the mere failure, does not matter what the content is, or does not matter what the extent is, the mere failure constitutes misconduct or constitutes a criminal offence. MR NHLEKO: L o o k , M r H u l l e y, t h e – i t w o u l d r e a l l y Page 60 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 depend on the policy framework and outlook of each given government institution particularly contained in your standard operating procedures. It is possible that another department, depending on what that department would be, it would maybe in the standard operating procedure refer to a misrepresentation of facts or reports or reports or whatever the case is and therefore, if that is so, that can then be gravitated to an area of misconduct as an when, for instance, an employee 10 would have comm itted such an alleged sort of offence. So – and that is why I do not want to talk about, you k n o w, whether rules, regulations and/or legislation in g o v e r n m e n t b e c a u s e , y o u k n o w, I m e a n , r e a l l y t h a t i s v e r y broad. ADV HULLEY SC: Thanks. But of course, the proposition that you advanced and on the example that you use of a misrepresentation, that stands on a completely different footing. What you mean there is that when you state one thing, 20 you make it a statement about one thing, whether it has been in the report, whether it has been a verbal statement, when that thing - that you know that thing to be false, that would then amount to a misrepresentation, whether it is a misrepresentation that is actionable in the sense that it is a disciplinary infraction would of course depend on the Page 61 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 content of the misrepresentation and its materiality to a workplace. In other words, it is on a matter of – that is on a matter relating to your duties. MR NHLEKO: N o , I h e a r y o u M r H u l l e y, b u t I w a s j u s t making an example. ADV HULLEY SC: MR NHLEKO: Thanks. In terms of what could also possibly be said in a set of standard operating procedures, and/or policy of a particular institution. 10 ADV HULLEY: I w a n t t o d e a l w i t h a s l i g h t l y, o r m o v e o n to a different topic, I mean, you were the Minister of Police, now one of the issues that had been raised by Mr McBride when he came into your office som etime in March o f 2 0 1 4 w a s i m m e d i a t e l y t o i d e n t i f y, o n c e h e w a s t o l d t h a t Crime Intelligence had been involved in this investigation, he found that particularly strange. If I understand him c o r r e c t l y, h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t i t w a s s t r a n g e a t t w o l e v e l s , i t was strange that Crime Intelligence had been involved in an investigation at all because Crime Intelligence doesn’t 20 r e a l l y, t o u s e t h e l a n g u a g e , c a r r y a d o c k e t , t h e y d o n ’ t investigate criminal misconduct. Crime Intelligence gathers information, they gather and they pass it on to some of the other structures within the SAPS, would that be a fair comment? MR NHLEKO: Look, I think it is, I think it’s also a matter Page 62 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 that, in the first report of the civilian secretariat of the police in 2013, no 2012, if I’m not mistaken, does refer to the matter having been picked up by Crime Intelligence and s o o n a n d I t h i n k t h a t ’ s w h e n t h e M i n i s t e r, b e f o r e I c a m e in, took a decision to then refer the matter to IPID but also at the earlier stages when Ms Koeki Mbeki was the Acting Executive Director then there was some involvement of a person from Crime Intelligence in this, for how long, I don’t know 10 but w i t h d r e w. Intelligence by – you So, the did not know issue at of some the necessarily point that involvement arise person of Crime around about February or March of 2014, I think it was a matter that was there, long before the conclusion of the report by Mr Khuba on the 22nd of January 2014. So – and I think there’s something that I must have seen somewhere by Ms Koeki Mbeki talking exactly to that issue, the decision being taken that, then Crime Intelligence needed to be, whoever person was needed to stand out and away out of the investigative work that IPID was conducting. 20 ADV HULLEY: But before I deal with that response, I just want to understand, would it be fair to say that Crime Intelligence is a body or a structure within the SAPS that gathers evidence or gathers information and the pass it on to other bodies or other structures within the SAPS, they don’t carry dockets? Page 63 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: that you Ja I think you’re correct with the exception corrected yourself there c o r r e c t l y, they don’t gather evidence, they gather information. ADV HULLEY: Thanks for that correction. Now the person you’re speaking of is a certain Colonel Moukangwe, i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e c o r r e c t l y. MR NHLEKO: Right. ADV HULLEY: Now – in fact Colonel Moukangwe didn’t w i t h d r a w f r o m t h e m a t t e r, a s y o u s u g g e s t , h e w a s i n v o l v e d 10 in the matter right up until the matter was being dealt with by Mr Khuba and he assisted Mr Khuba throughout and he was instructed by Ms Koeki Mbeki to have Mr Khuba or to have Colonel Moukangwe assisting him at all stages. Would that be, for you, would that be problematic? MR NHLEKO: L o o k , I t h i n k t h a t d e t a i l , y o u k n o w, a s a n d when my understanding is that you could be in the process, C h a i r, o f t a k i n g a d e c i s i o n t o i n v i t e M s M b e k i h e r e b e c a u s e I t h i n k s h e w o u l d , y o u k n o w, w e l l p o s i t i o n e d t o c l a r i f y t h a t particular point. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja I think that Ms Mbeki should come in, c o m e a n d t e s t i f y, a c t u a l l y. I was surprised that, yesterday Mr Hulley you were told that her affidavit is still not final. About a year ago I said her affidavit should be obtained but I think the reason why Mr Hulley raises this with you might be the same reason that I wanted to raise some of the Page 64 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 issues including – the involvement of Mr Moukangwe with you. of I think he raises it with you because the involvement Crime Intelligence or somebody from – or the involvement of Crime Intelligence prior to an investigation, because as I understand the position, Crime Intelligence had conducted some investigation on this rendition issue before the matter was handed over to IPID and then when it was handed over to IPID Mr Moukangwe, from Crime Intelligence or Mr Khuba was told that he was going to 10 conduct the investigation with Mr Moukangwe and it appears from Mr Khuba’s affidavit that the justification that was put forward was that, because Mr Moukangwe had done quite a lot of investigation so he should be captain in the investigation even when the investigation was being conducted by IPID. Intelligence, who So, my concern is, why would Crime are not supposed to conduct investigations, one, conduct an investigation in this case, two, remain so interested in this investigation that one of their own must assist or be part of the investigation even 20 when the investigation is under the auspices of IPID. So, M r H u l l e y w i l l y o u s a y, y o u m i g h t h a v e a d i f f e r e n t c o n c e r n but that’s the concern, there are many other features and m a y b e w e ’ l l t a l k a b o u t t h e m , w h i c h m a k e s o n e s a y, b u t w h y was – why were things happening the way it’s suggested, were happening in regard to this investigation? Page 65 of 239 Of course, 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 I h a v e n o t h e a r d e v e r y b o d y, m a y b e w h e n I h e a r w i t n e s s e s who have not come – who have not been heard yet, like Ms Mbeki certain things will begin to make sense. So, but until that happens there are certain features where you s a y, b u t w h y w a s t h i s h a p p e n i n g . S o , I t h i n k , f o r m e t h a t i s o n e o f t h e i s s u e s t o s a y, y o u , h a v i n g b e e n M i n i s t e r o f P o l i c e y o u ’ d b e a b l e t o s a y, w e l l t o m e i t d o e s n ’ t l o o k strange that, one, Crime Intelligence conducted investigation on this issue at all or two, it doesn’t – there’s 10 nothing strange that somebody from Crime Intelligence continued to be part of the investigation even when the investigation was done by IPID because of this u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t I h a v e o r y o u m i g h t s a y, i t a l s o l o o k s strange to me. So that’s m y – that’s what I’d like to hear from you, whether you – what your own reaction is when you hear that this was the case. MR NHLEKO: No, honourable Chairperson, I think, in a way you have also answered yourself that the operatives as and when they appear here from an operational point of 20 v i e w, t h e y ’ l l b e a b l e t o g i v e y o u f u r t h e r d e t a i l , f o r a n example. S o , i t ’s p o s s i b l e t h a t t h e y w i l l b e a b l e t o s a y t o y o u , a s C h a i r o f t h i s C o m m i s s i o n a n d s a y, w e h a d t h i s much amount of information collected but these were the dynamics and nitty gritty’s that also involved that there were certain areas that could only be opened, precisely Page 66 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 b e c a u s e , y o u k n o w, t h e y k n e w u s o r i t w a s u s w h o h a d t h i s information for us to be able to access certain, whatever b u t t h a t ’ s t h e k i n d o f o p e r a t i o n a l d e t a i l t h a t , i n m y v i e w, a s and when the correct people at an operational level, are here and – and I’m liking to the point that the Chair correctly said, and said look you’ve not heard everybody it’s – therefore, it’s likely that as and when we draw in most of these individuals that were involved in this investigation and maybe collection at some point and so 10 on, that matter will be clarified. CHAIRPERSON: But what I would like you to help me with i s w h e t h e r, a s s o m e b o d y w h o w a s M i n i s t e r o f P o l i c e f o r a certain period, whether you regard it as normal for Crime Intelligence, one, to conduct an investigation as opposed to gathering information, I think you made that distinction earlier on and two, to be part of an investigation that is conducted by IPID, is that something that would happen in their normal – in the course of their work, as far as you know? 20 MR NHLEKO: L o o k , I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w, a s f a r a s I k n o w b u t I think this question that the honourable Chair is posing is a relevant question. It’s relevant in the sense that it really depends on what the issues were, I suppose, you know but if we – you had to ask me at a general level you are making an enquiry for an example, I’m just making – this is Page 67 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 now a general thing, you are making an enquiry about a cert ain matter but I happen – I, who’s out side of your function, I happen to be holding a particular information o k a y, I t h i n k i t w o u l d m a k e s e n s e t h a t I w o u l d h a v e t o g o c o o p e r a t e w i t h y o u a n d s a y, I h a n d o v e r t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n t o you, to assist you in your enquiry or investigation that you are making. N o w, i t ’ s t h e n t h e q u e s t i o n o f o p e r a t i o n a l detail of, do I continue to be involved with you for whatever the reasons are because it really depends on the nature 10 and the weight of that information, I suppose, and to what extent do I continue to assist you in your investigation and my understanding is that if you look at the historical, sort of reports around this issue, Crime Intelligence is identified as assisting in the investigation, not that they were conducting the investigation. So, the investigation was conducted by IPID but for whatever the reasons were, maybe they were operational reasons, whether they were sound or not so sound, I think operatives in that regard would be able to shed some light. 20 CHAIRPERSON: But in terms of the scope of their work, y o u a r e n o t a b l e t o s a y, w h e t h e r t h i s w o u l d n o r m a l l y f a l l within their scope of work? MR NHLEKO: Yo u m e a n i n t e r m s o f t h e i r s c o p e o f t h e i r work they would not be conducting investigations, they would be collecting information, Page 68 of 239 they would not be 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 investigating police misconduct, for an example CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , I t h i n k t h a t ’ s – t h a t a n s w e r s m y question. MR NHLEKO: O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: I just mention, for what it’s worth, and you probably can’t say anything about it, but it just adds to features that make the involvement of the Crime Intelligence, features that make this investigation strange o r t h e i r i n t e r e s t i n t h e m a t t e r, s t r a n g e t h a t a c c o r d i n g t o M r 10 Khuba, in his affidavit, one, Ms Mbeki – Koeki Mbeki told him to keep the involvement of Mr Moukangwe secret. Tw o , a c c o r d i n g t o M r K h u b a … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR NHLEKO: I ’ m s o r r y C h a i r, s o r r y t o d i s t u r b y o u , k e e p the involvement of Mr Moukangwe, that’s the part – there’s a part that I couldn’t – I heard about Moukangwe, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , I ’ m s o r r y, I ’ m s a y i n g , a c c o r d i n g t o Mr Khuba’s affidavit one of the strange things for me is that according to him Ms Koeki Mbeki told or instructed Mr Khuba to keep the involvement of Mr Moukangwe secret in 20 the investigation. MR NHLEKO: O h o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , t h a t ’ s o n e . Tw o , M r K h u b a s a y s i n his affidavit, Mr Moukangwe asked him to use certain em ail addresses when sending documents about this investigation but what is strange is that he didn’t want Mr Page 69 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 Khuba to official send email him those address, he documents or emails to his gave him a certain email address, I get the impression from what Khuba says in his affidavit that it might not have, even been his personal email address, he insisted they should not be sent to his official email address. So, there are other features that are strange for me but I’m saying – I’m mentioning this you probably can’t comment on them. MR NHLEKO: 10 I hear you Chair but there’s hardly anything that I can answer about that ja, no thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY: T h a n k y o u , M r H u l l e y. T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r, i t i s o f f u r t h e r concern…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry I think Mr Mokhari has something …[intervenes]. MR MOKHARI: Before Mr Hulley puts a question, for p u r p o s e s o f a r r a n g i n g m y d a y, I s e e t h a t w e a r e n o l o n g e r s t i c k i n g t o t h e t i m e s t h a t w e ’ v e s p o k e n a b o u t y e s t e r d a y, I had 20 to arrange my day in such a manner that I a c c o m m o d a t e d t h e p r o c e e d i n g s c o n t i n u e d t o d a y, o n t h e basis of what was said. I moved my commitments to the afternoon two o’clock and four o’clock and – so if I may be told again that we are going to go on so that I can be again, then I mean, shift my commitments. CHAIRPERSON: No, I’m terribly sorry Mr Mokhari actually Page 70 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 about half past eleven I thought of raising the issue but I think something happened and I forgot. I did say that we have got to finish within two hours and in seven minutes time it will be two hours, I think but it’s quite clear we are not done. I also still have got quite some questions, I think as far is today is concerned everything has been going satisfactorily in terms of everybody has been dealing with matters the way I cooperation from all sides. 10 expected so there has been Let us talk about what should happen and – I know that Mr Nhleko wanted to get done and that’s why we have moved and Mr Mokhari also wanted this…[intervenes]. MR MOKHARI: I t h i n k a l l I n e e d t o k n o w C h a i r, i s h o w much more time so that I’m able to move my commitments that’s all that I need. CHAIRPERSON: Well let’s talk about that, do we – Mr Hulley what is your own sense, we have got to do justice in the end but we must not take too long but we must still do justice. 20 ADV HULLEY: Obviously when I formulate an assessment of time, I do so with reference to the questions that I’ve got and the response according to this. which I think will be accurate Sometimes if the response is different it might take me down a different pathway but speaking, g e n e r a l l y, I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t t w o a n d a h a l f h o u r s – Page 71 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 the assessment of two and a half hours yesterday would have been a fair assessment. There’s been a few d i s t u r b a n c e s t o d a y, n o t n e c e s s a r i l y r e l a t e d t o M r N h l e k o y o u k n o w, b u t t h e r e h a v e b e e n a f e w d i s t u r b a n c e s . The point I’m making, simply is, that I think I’ve still got – essentially about three broad issues that I still need to discuss. A lot of it is already dealt with in the affidavit but I need to get clarity on exactly what is being said with reference to the affidavit. 10 C h a i r, I would have So, to answer your question Mr imagined that if everything goes according to the way I’ve formulated it in my head it would take about an hour and a half at most. CHAIRPERSON: Sorry just repeat that? ADV HULLEY: What I’m saying is that my assessment based on the questions that I would ask and the answers that I anticipated getting, I would have assessed that it’s round about an hour and a half but som etimes there’s an explanation that comes…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: 20 And sometimes the Chairperson also has questions. ADV HULLEY: CHAIRPERSON: MR MOKHARI: I d i d n ’ t s a y t h a t M r C h a i r. I think I can see you are diplomatic. A c t u a l l y, w h e n h e s a y s a n h o u r a n d a h a l f then we must put thirty minutes of the Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: No, no that’s true. Page 72 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR MOKHARI: No, no Chair that’s all that I want ed just an indication…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Well the reason why I’m taking longer to answer that question on your part, is that I realised that this is quite an important thing and it’s quite obvious from Mr Nhleko’s statement s over the past two days that also he regards this as very important so it should be dealt with p r o p e r l y. So, I’ve been – I’ve been thinking about whether we shouldn’t run away from the idea that we might not 10 finish so that when he comes back to cross-examine Mr McBride, we can make space for him to finish first. So that’s why I couldn’t – I didn’t want to immediately answer you, I know that he might have something to say but Mr M o k h a r i d o y o u h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o s a y, e v e n t h o u g h h e might have som ething different to say? MR MOKHARI: No, yes, I’m saying that my question was o n l y i n r e l a t i o n o f m e t h e n a r r a n g i n g m y a f f a i r s f o r t o d a y, not that I was saying that – so I just want to know because it will be unfair of me to sit here whilst I’ve arranged with 20 people. So, all that I needed was, now that you’ve given me the indication, so during lunch time I’m able then to simply then rearrange m y affairs. So I’m not saying that we should not continue until we finish but I’ll prefer that we run and we finish with him so that when we come to crossexamine we cross-examine the McBride he’s going to be Page 73 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 cross-examined by many people then this m a y, again, disturb – and he has to come from KZN all the time. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s , M r N h l e k o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR MOKHARI: So, if you can just proceed on that basis. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , M r N h l e k o y o u w a n t e d to say something, you raised your hand? MR NHLEKO: No, no, no I do confirm this position that, in fact, we should finish but I would have said that perhaps to be on the safe side we should finish at all cost, which 10 means, that even if it would mean we sit here till 12 midnight I would still prefer that we do that and then we finish and then we come back with a dedicated focus on cross-examining Mr McBride. So that’s just my suggestion, of course I’m not a member of the Commission, I’m being subjected to it but – it’s a suggesting that I’m making yes. CHAIRPERSON: and we’ll talk No, that’s fine, well I think, let’s continue about how long just n o w, because the investigations continue there can never be a guarantee that you can’t be asked to come back if there is a reason, 20 y o u k n o w. MR NHLEKO: Ye s , i f t h e r e i s . CHAIRPERSON: But I think the idea is, if we can let’s see if we can try and finish. The – so I think, shall we continue, you talked about one and a half hours. ADV HULLEY: I spoke of one and a half hours based on Page 74 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 my assessment…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY: CHAIRPERSON: Ja but it could be…[intervenes]. In my own head L e t ’ s c o n t i n u e a n d s h a l l w e s a y, I d o n ’ t know if Mr Notshe is here, on the basis that we were going to finish before lunch, there was to be another witness but I think that can be sorted out during lunch time. Let’s continue and at 1 o’clock let’s see whet her we t ake the lunch break at 1 o’clock, maybe a shorter lunch break or 10 whether we take a full hour and then maybe, if need be, we continue until, maybe three. ADV HULLEY: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. Let’s see how – how would that affect your situation Mr Mokhari, is that fine? MR MOKHARI: C h a i r, a l l I n e e d e d w a s a n i n d i c a t i o n , I ’ l l m o v e m y t h i n g s s o t h a t w e c a n f i n i s h t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: MR MOKHARI: CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y. Ye s . Okay let’s – at this stage we’re going to try and finish as early as we can but at the same time, we want to do justice to the issues and we are looking at not going beyond 3 o’clock, if possible. ADV HULLEY: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV HULLEY: Now of course Page 75 of 239 there’s an additional 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 problem and I want to explore this with you Mr Nhleko, if I u n d e r s t o o d t h e e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t l y, b a s e d o n t h e d o c k e t there were at least the DPCI, which is the Hawks may have been involved rephrase in that. the investigation May have been in – sorry implicated let me in the investigation in respect of the rendition so there was some Hawks Officers that were part of the operation and – as one of the different units. Another one was Crime Intelligence itself; members of Crime Intelligence were also 10 part of the investigation – sorry part of the rendition in the s e n s e t h a t t h e y, t o o h a d b e e n a s s i s t i n g i n t h e a r r e s t i n g o f people. So, the proposition I’m putting to you is that it seems to be problematic at least three levels. that it seems that Crime Intelligence One level is is, in fact, investigating Crime Intelligence, that’s quite apart from the fact that Crime Intelligence shouldn’t be involved in an IPID investigation. MR NHLEKO: It sounds like you are making an o b s e r v a t i o n , I m e a n y o u a r e , I s u p p o s e , M r H u l l e y, y o u 20 know within your right to make such an observation. I also still do think that at an operational level there will be, p r o b a b l y, c l a r i t y a r o u n d t h e s e q u e s t i o n s , t h e i n v o l v e m e n t of Crime Intelligence, DPCI and whatever else and so on. I think people who investigated and other people who p l a y e d a r o l e i n t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n , y o u k n o w, s h o u l d b e i n a Page 76 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 position to verify the Commission around these particular matters. ADV HULLEY: My question is…[intervenes]. MR NHLEKO: But you are making an observation and that o b s e r v a t i o n i s a n o b s e r v a t i o n s i r. ADV HULLEY: observation, No of of course, course is but I meaningless want if to – my there’s no evidence to support it, I really want your comment on that. That’s my observation but I’d like to know whet her you 10 would support that observation, as the Minister of Police? That if Crime Intelligence or members of Crime Intelligence…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m a y b e a b l e t o s a y, I t h i n k i t ’ s a l e g i t i m a t e o b s e r v a t i o n , y o u m a y s a y, I d o n ’ t t h i n k i t ’ s w e l l founded because of A, B, C, D or you may say I’m not able to comment. MR NHLEKO: comment, Look the – yes, I may not be able to largely because, C h a i r, I wouldn’t know the o r i g i n a l r e a s o n s w h y, w h e t h e r t h e y g o t i n v o l v e d a n d t o 20 what extent they got involved so that’s why I will not be able to comment. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR NHLEKO: B u t f y o u w e r e t o a s k m e , M r H u l l e y, a n d I’m not suggesting that he should ask me that question, in fact he prohibited Mr Hulley to ask that question, but the Page 77 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 p o i n t r e a l l y b e i n g h e r e , w h e t h e r, a s a m a t t e r o f p r i n c i p l e i s it correct for an institution to investigate itself, then I can tell you that it is not correct. So – and conceptually that’s a d i f f e r e n t m a t t e r a l t o g e t h e r, y e s s o . CHAIRPERSON: Ja well it’s the sam e point you made yesterday that – maybe not the same but it’s related, n a m e l y, t h a t i t w o u l d n ’ t b e r i g h t f o r I P D … . Finish with the following sentence [at 1.00.00] CHAIRPERSON: 10 the National it wouldn’t be right for IPID to report to Commissioner because the National Commissioners falls within the jurisdiction of investigation. MR NHLEKO: Ja, it is a standing implicated institution. [laughing] ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u S i r. Well the report or rather the appointment of Werksmans as I understood it from the Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e a n d o f c o u r s e p l e a s e c o r r e c t m e i f I a m wrong but my understanding was that Werksmans was supposed to conduct interviews, is that correct? M R N H L E K O : Ye s I a m l i s t e n i n g – I a m l i s t e n i n g S i r. 20 ADV HULLEY SC: Well I am asking if it is correct. Wa s i t your understanding that you wanted Werksmans to conduct interviews? MR NHLEKO: Look again that is – that is operational d e t a i l . W e r k s m a n s w e r e g i v e n a s e t o f Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e . Now operationally what it means is that as and when they Page 78 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 conducted this work, they would then design their work. Okay I would not design work for them for an example. CHAIRPERSON: So in other words… MR NHLEKO: So if the… CHAIRPERSON: Wa s your position that they should c o n d u c t a n i n v e s t i g a t i o n , t h e s e a r e t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e , how they went about it was up to them? MR NHLEKO: E x a c t l y. I t i s – b e c a u s e t h a t i s o p e r a t i o n a l levels so I suppose for an example if you were to say to me 10 I must investigate a matter which whatever I would take y o u r Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e a n d t r a n s l a t e t h e m i n t o a w o r k plan. And say this is how I want to go about this and what kind of – a definitive kind of approach you know in an established kind of standards for an example that I would w a n t t o f o l l o w a s a n i n v e s t i g a t o r. design work for you. But I would not then Yo u k n o w i n a s e n s e a s a n e n t i t y t h a t would be investigated. Ye s . And maybe just to complete t h a t p o i n t C h a i r – I a m s o r r y M r H u l l e y. T h e Te r m s o f Reference who and under which circumstances was the 20 original report altered? And – or how the second report came about with both reports signed by the same person ie. Mr Khuba? W h e t h e r a n y m i s c o n d u c t o r o ff e n c e h a s b e e n committed and if so by whom? [indistinct 01:02:47] whether there is a prima facie evidence of misconduct in criminal liability by Lieutenant General Dramat, Major General Sibiya Page 79 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 a n d a n y o t h e r o ff i c e r s m e n t i o n e d i n t h e o r i g i n a l r e p o r t . Fourthly the circumstances under which report and the d o c k e t h a n d e d i n t h e N PA a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e d o c k e t w h i l s t i n t h e N PA p o s s e s s i o n ? Lastly any other matter that might come to your attention during the investigation which is relevant to a conclusions and find it. Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e w e r e f r a m e d . That is how the But then in the report by Werksmans they then went into the detailing in terms of how they 10 went about their investigation. They referred to interviews, recordings, statements and whatever and so on that they collected prescribed by me. and so forth. But that was I g a v e t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e . not They t h e n d e s i g n e d t h e i r w o r k . T h a n k s C h a i r. A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. M R N H L E K O : A n d t h a n k s M r H u l l e y. ADV HULLEY SC: S o a s p a r t o f t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e you say in paragraph 6 Mr Chair for your benefit the relevant document is in Bundle LEA2. And it is an annexure. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I see that my bundles have still not been written. A D V H U L L E Y S C : M y s i n c e r e a p o l o g i e s M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: This one is Bundle LEA? ADV HULLEY SC: LEA2. CHAIRPERSON: That is the one that has got Exhibit Page 80 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 [Y8B]? A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Has somebody given the witness t h e ri g h t b u n d l e ? MR NHLEKO: T h a n k yo u I f o l l o w y o u . I a m s a yi n g I w i l l f o l l o w y o u w i t h i t b u t I t h i n k I s a w i t h e r e – i t i s a l ri g h t – t h e bundle ja. A D V H U L L E Y S C : S o M r C h a i r t o b e s p e ci f i c i t i s … M R N H L E K O : I t i s j u st t h a t I n o l o n g e r h a v e s u ff i ci e n t s p a c e 10 here. CHAIRPERSON: Oh is that so. MR NHLEKO: T h a t i s w h y I a m g o i n g t o u s e m y e a r – y e s. So it is fine. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u ca n k e e p i t a w a y i f yo u t h i n k y o u c a n f o l l o w b u t a s a n d w h e n y o u t h i n k yo u n e e d i t i n d i ca t e . M R N H L E K O : Ye s I w i l l d e f i n i t e l y d o t h a t j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t i s a l ri g h t . M R N H L E K O : S o t h a n k s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A l ri g h t . 20 ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r t h e r e l e va n t p a g e i s at page 638 of that bundle. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e p a g e n u m b e r? A D V H U L L E Y S C : 6 3 8 M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 638? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct . Page 81 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 y o u s a y t o a s p a rt o f y o u r Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e yo u s a y t o We r k s m a n s t h at i n yo u r i n v e st i g a t i o n y o u w i l l i n t e r vi e w t h e re l e v a n t w i t n e s s e s a t your own discretion and have access to all relevant d o cu m e n t a t i o n i n cl u d i n g t h e t w o re p o rt s, t h e d o c k e t a n d w i t n e s s st a t e m e n t s m a d e s o f a r. S o i n s h o rt , t h e y h a d t o – they were required to interview relevant witnesses at their d i s c re t i o n i n o r d e r t o c o m p l e t e t h e t a s k t h a t y o u h a d p l a c e d 10 before them. MR NHLEKO: Right. ADV HULLEY SC: And the task that you had placed before them and to which you want to then answer was in the s e c o n d i n st a n c e t o d e t e rm i n e w h e t h e r a n y m i s co n d u ct o r o ff e n c e h a d b e e n co m m i t t e d a n d i f so b y w h o m . Now when y o u t a l k a b o u t a n o ff e n c e y o u r e f e r ri n g s p e ci f i c a l l y t o a c ri m i n a l o ff e n ce . MR NHLEKO: W e l l o f – n o M r H u l l e y o ff e n c e s t h e y a r e a l s o committed at the work place level. 20 I t i s a n o ff e n c e n o t t o f o l l o w o f o u r l a t e p o l i c y f o r i n st a n c e a w o r k p l a ce p o l i c y. S o i t i s n o t o n l y i n re l a t i o n t o c ri m i n a l . CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u m e a n t b o t h a c ri m i n a l o ff e n c e a n d a d i s ci p l i n a r y o ff e n c e ? M R N H L E K O : N o m y f o c u s w a s t h e q u e st i o n o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : A d i s ci p l i n a r y. Page 82 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: D i s ci p l i n a r y w o r ke d – t h e a ct o f m i s c o n d u ct what does it then do? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R N H L E K O : To t h e i m a g e o f t h e i n st i t u t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: A n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 3 o r su b - p a r a g r a p h 5 . 3 r a t h e r y o u a s k w h e t h e r t h e re i s a p ri m a f a ci e e vi d e n ce o f m i s c o n d u ct 10 Dramat, and Major cri m i n a l General liability Sibiya by and Lieutenant G e n e ra l any o ff i c e r s other m e n t i o n e d i n t h e o r i g i n a l r e p o rt . Yo u se e t h a t ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s I s e e – I h e a r t h a t S i r. ADV HULLEY SC: So insofar as they were given – given a m a n d a t e t o i n t e r v i e w r e l e v a n t w i t n e s s e s a t t h e i r d i s c re t i o n t h e y h a d t o d e t e rm i n e w h e t h e r a p ri m a f a ci e e vi d e n ce o f m i s c o n d u ct c e rt a i n l y b u t a l s o cri m i n a l l i a b i l i t y e xi st e d a n d t o that e xt e n t they were entitled to i n t e r vi e w w i t n e s se s. C o rr e ct ? M R N H L E K O : T h a t i s co r r e ct . 20 ADV HULLEY SC: N o w t o t h a t e xt e n t w i t h r e s p e ct M r C h a i r b e ca u s e t h e y w o u l d b e c o n d u ct i n g a c ri m i n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n w e re t h e y n o t ? MR NHLEKO: No. I d o n o t t h i n k s o . I d o n o t t h i n k s o . Yo u h e a r d t h e H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r M r H u l l e y y o u h a d a r e p o rt d o n e o n i t t h a t i s t h a t s a i d t h e s e t w o i n d i vi d u a l s a r e i m p l i c a t e d i n Page 83 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 t h e c o m m i s si o n o f [ i n d i st i n ct 0 1 : 0 9 : 3 1 ] . T h e n y o u h a ve a n o t h e r r e p o rt t h e 1 8 M a r c h w h i ch t h e n e x o n e r a t e d t h e m a n d p u sh e d t h e m o u t o f t h i s. N o w – s o w e a r e t h e n i n v e st i g a t i n g f i r st l y – f i r st a n d f o r e m o st w h y y o u h a v e t h i s d i s j u n ct u r e between the two. B u t a l so , s e c o n d l y t h a t y o u a l s o n e e d p r o p e rl y v i e w a v a i l a b l e so rt o f r e p o rt s, r e c o m m e n d a t i o n a n d w h a t e v e r e l s e b e c a u se i t i s p o s si b l e t h a t t h e s e c o n d r e p o rt m a y b e sa y i n g , n o w e a r e n o t l i a b l e f o r cri m i n a l p ro s e c u t i o n . I a m j u st m a ki n g a n e xa m p l e a s re c o m m e n d e d . 10 But then a g a i n C h a i r t h e i s s u e t h a t i n t e r e st i n g l y yo u ra i se d y e st e r d a y i f y o u l o o k i n t o t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t p r o d u c e d t h e r e p o rt a n d t h a t i s t h e d o c ke t a ct u a l l y t h e r e a r e st a t e m e n t s a n d r e p o rt s that implicate these individuals in wrongdoing. Right. So t h a t n e c e s s a ri l y i s n o t u n d e r st o o d a s y o u k n o w a l e g a l f i rm t h a t t h e n i s co n d u ct i n g a cr i m i n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n . S o t h a t i s – t h a t i s a d i st i n ct i o n t h e r e M r H u l l e y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : N o , n o I u n d e r st a n d y o u t o b e s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s i n f o r m a t i o n i n t h e d o c k e t s. T h e r e w a s st a t e m e n t s t h a t w e re t h e r e a n d t h e y w e r e c e rt a i n l y e n t i t l e d t o a n a l y s e 20 t h o se st a t e m e n t s t h a t i s p a rt o f t h e i r m a n d a t e . M y e a rl i e r q u e st i o n t o y o u t o w h i c h I t h o u g h t I h a d a n a ff i rm a t i v e a n s w e r a s f a r t h a t i s c o n ce r n e d i . e . cl a u s e 5 . 3 w e r e t h e y a l s o e n t i t l e d t o i n t e r vi e w w i t n e s s e s ? I u n d e r st o o d yo u r re s p o n s e t o b e y e s. D i d I m i s u n d e r st a n d y o u ? MR NHLEKO: I think this point has been canvassed and Page 84 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 s u b se q u e n t l y so rt o f r e s p o n d e d t o . CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o rr y I d i d n o t h e a r t h a t q u e st i o n . W h a t w a s t h e q u e st i o n ? ADV HULLEY SC: S o t h e q u e s t i o n b a s e d o n t h e e a rl i e r st a t e m e n t cl a u s e 5 . 3 s a y s a m o n g st t h e i s s u e s t h a t n e e d t o b e i n v e st i g a t e d a n d t o b e r e p o rt e d u p o n a s p a rt o f t h e Te rm s o f R e f e r e n c e w a s w h e t h e r t h e re i s a p ri m a f a ci e e vi d e n ce o f m i s c o n d u ct Dramat, 10 and Major cri m i n a l General liability Sibiya by and m e n t i o n e d i n t h e o ri g i n a l r e p o rt . Lieutenant G e n e ra l any o ff i c e r s other P a rt o f t h e i r Te rm s o f R e f e r e n c e i n cl u d e s a p a r a g r a p h 6 i t s a y s: “I n your i n v e st i g a t i o n you will i n t e r vi e w the re l e v a n t witnesses at your own discretion and have access to all re l e v a n t d o c u m e n t a t i o n i n cl u d i n g t h e t w o r e p o rt s, t h e d o c ke t a n d w i t n e s s st a t e m e n t s m a d e s o f a r. ” S o t h e q u e st i o n t h a t I h a d a s k e d Mr N h l e k o e a r l i e r w a s, w h e t h e r i n d o i n g s o t h e y w o u l d b e e n t i t l e d t o a ct u a l l y i n t e r vi e w w i t n e s s e s i n r e l a t i o n t o cl a u s e 5 . 3 ? I u n d e r st o o d t h e a n s w e r t o t h a t t o b e y e s. I n o t h e r w o r d s i n r e s p e ct o f … 20 CHAIRPERSON: that how they Ja, no. went Ja because he said that – he said about the i n v e st i g a t i o n was their b u si n e s s. Yo u d r a w a t t e n t i o n t o p a r a g r a p h 6 w h i c h s a i d t h e y w i l l i n t e r vi e w r e l e v a n t w i t n e s s e s a t t h e i r o w n d i s c r e t i o n w h i c h se e m s t o s a y t h e s a m e t h i n g i f I a m n o t m i st a k e n . S o it seems to me that he contemplated and he can speak for Page 85 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 h i m se l f b u t m y u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h a t h e c o n t e m p l a t e d t h a t i f t h e y w a n t t o i n t e r vi e w w i t n e s s e s, t h e y – i t w a s u p t o t h e m . M R N H L E K O : C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R N H L E K O : J u s t t o cl a ri f y t h i s p o i n t d i ff e r e n t l y. Yo u kn o w i t w a s cri t i c a l a n d i m p o rt a n t t h a t i n t h e e x e r ci s e o f t h i s w o r k t h a t I c o n d u ct e d a n d a s ke d We r k s m a n s t o d o t h e e l e m e n t o f f a i r n e s s a n d b e i n g j u st h a d t o b e m a i n t a i n e d . there all the time. 10 It had to be In other words, it would be unheard of t h a t y o u a r e c o n d u ct i n g a – s o m e e n q u i r y o f s o rt s b u t e v e n t u a l l y y o u a rr i v e a t a c o n cl u si o n a b o u t s o m e b o d y w h o m w e h a v e n o t s p o k e n t o a n d f i n d a n d e st a b l i s h h i s o r h e r si d e o f t h e st o r y f o r a n e x a m p l e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: Yo u kn o w t h a t i s – I d o n o t kn o w w h a t t h e y c a l l t h o s e ki n d s o f i n v e st i g a t i o n s r e a l l y b u t i t i s b i a s e d f o r m of an approach. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: 20 A n d t h e r e f o r e , i n t h e f r a m i n g o f t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e i t i s vi t a l t h e q u e st i o n o f , y e s t h i s g e n t l e m a n s e a t e d a cr o s s m e h e re h e i s i m p l i c a t e – h e i s sa i d t o b e i m p l i c a t e d a n d t h e y sa i d t h i s a n d t h a t b u t l e t m e h e a r h i m out and so on. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: By so doing you are able to come out with a Page 86 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 b a l a n c e d a n d a n o b j e ct i v e p r o d u ct w h i c h i s t h e n a l s o i s g o i n g t o a s si st m e a s a n e m p l o y e r a t t h e t i m e o f co u r s e t o b e a b l e t o a ct a n d a ct a c c o r d i n g l y i n f o l l o w i n g t h e l e g a l p r e s c ri p t s t h a t g o v e r n o u r c o u n t r y a n d i n st i t u t i o n s. So it – I t h i n k i t sh o u l d b e u n d e r st o o d i n t h a t so rt o f co n t e xt a l s o w h y t h a t Te r m o f R e f e r e n ce w a s i n cl u d e d . CHAIRPERSON: B u t i t i s m a yb e i m p o rt a n t t o u n d e r st a n d w h a t t h e a n s w e r y o u g i v e n o w d o e s t o t h e e a r l i e r a n s w e r. T h e e a rl i e r a n s w e r h a vi n g b e e n I g a v e t h e m a m a n d a t e h o w 10 they O k a y. went about their i n v e st i g a t i o n was their b u si n e s s. B u t w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d n o w se e m s t o e m p h a si s e t h e q u e st i o n o f i n t e r vi e w i n g w i t n e s se s o n t h e b a si s t h a t y o u s a y but it would have been unheard of for them to reach their c o n cl u si o n w i t h o u t h a vi n g i n t e r vi e w e d p e r s o n s w h o m a y b e implicated. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: S o I t h i n k t h e r e y o u a r e s a yi n g t h o s e t w o t h i n g s n o w o f c o u r se y o u m i g h t n o t s a y a n yt h i n g t o t h e m i n y o u r b ri e f t o t h e m o r m a n d a t e t o t h e m a b o u t i n t e r vi e w i n g 20 w i t n e s s e s w h e n y o u r e xp e ct a t i o n i s t h a t t h e y k n o w w h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g a n d t h e y w i l l m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y c o n d u ct t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n i n a m a n n e r t h a t m e e t s b a si c e l e m e n t a r y r u l e s o f f a i r n e s s. MR NHLEKO: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u m i g h t t h e n s a y, I a m n o t g o i n g t o Page 87 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 mention that because it is to be taken – it is to assumed that t h e y w i l l i n t e r vi e w t h e m b u t y o u m a y h a v e a si t u a t i o n w h e re a n i n t e r vi e w i s n o t n e c e s s a r y b u t t h e y s e n d s o m e b o d y w h o i s i m p l i c a t e d a n i n vi t a t i o n t o s a y g i v e u s y o u r si d e o f t h e st o r y o n w ri t i n g o n t h i s i s s u e a n d t h i s i s s u e a n d t h i s i s s u e . So in o t h e r w o r d s, t h e r e m i g h t b e n o i n t e r v i e w b u t st i l l t h e p e r s o n h a s b e e n g i ve n a c h a n c e t o p u t t h e i r ve r si o n . MR NHLEKO: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I a m j u st m e n t i o n i n g b e c a u s e t h e o n e – 10 t h e l a t e st s e e m e d t o e m p h a si s e t h a t y o u r e x p e ct a t i o n w a s t h a t t h e re w o u l d b e i n t e r vi e w s. M R N H L E K O : N o . I a m a l so o n t h e o n e h a n d e x p l a i n i n g t h e f ra m e w o r k a n d t h e o u t l o o k c h a r a ct e r w i se o f t h e Te rm s o f Reference. C h a i r. Yo u s e e l e t u s t a k e a n e x a m p l e H o n o u r a b l e T h e f i r st Te r m o f R e f e re n c e . It says who and under w h a t ci r c u m st a n c e s w a s t h e o ri g i n a l r e p o rt a l t e r e d . N o w y o u a r e n o t g o i n g t o w o r k o n t h e b a si s o f a h e a r sa y t o a n s w e r t h i s q u e st i o n . Right. I t i s t h e sa m e t h i n g a n d I t h i n k y e st e r d a y I m a d e a n e x a m p l e a b o u t a n a l l e g a t i o n t h a t s a y s, 20 y o u h a v e st o l e n t h e g o l d . T h e st a r t i n g p o i n t i s t h a t y e s y o u h a ve t h a t a l l e g a t i o n b u t y o u w a n t m e t o k n o w t o e st a b l i s h t h e f a ct s w h e t h e r i n d e e d i t d i d h a p p e n . So I would come to y o u a n d s a y t o y o u , N g o b e s e s a y s y o u st o l e h i s g o l d . Do y o u k n o w a n yt h i n g a b o u t t h a t , i s i t t ru e ? I a m j u st m a ki n g a n example so that then … Page 88 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: To say what do you say about this allegation? M R N H L E K O : E x a ct l y y o u k n o w t h a t s o rt o f t h i n g . S o – a n d t h a t a p p r o a c h I a m o t h e r t h a n f a i r t h e r e a n d sa y t h a t a p p r o a c h s a t i sf i e s t h e r u l e s o f f a i r n e s s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R N H L E K O : A n d b e i n g j u st . T h a t i s w h a t I w i l l sa y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. F i n e . M R N H L E K O : T h a n k s. 10 ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u Mr C h a i r. I u n d e r st o o d f r o m y o u r t e st i m o n y ye st e r d a y t h a t w h e n We r k s m a n s p h o n e d y o u a n d s a i d o r c o n t a ct e d y o u i n so m e w a y a n d s a i d t h a t t h e y a r e r e c e i vi n g n o co o p e r a t i o n . Yo u t h e n t e l e p h o n e d M r K h u b a a n d s a i d t o h i m y o u w o u l d l i k e h i m t o co o p e ra t e o r y o u t o l d h i m t o co o p e r a t e . N o w m y u n d e r st a n d i n g w a s p e r h a p s I a m w r o n g m y u n d e r st a n d i n g w a s t h a t y o u w e r e d i re ct i n g h i m o r i n st r u ct e d h i m t o c o o p e r a t e . Yo u w e re n o t s a yi n g t o h i m , o u t o f f a i r n e s s I w o u l d l i k e t o a ff o r d y o u t h e o p p o rt u n i t y t o c o o p e r a t e . 20 M R N H L E K O : Ye s b u t M r H u l l e y w h e r e d o y o u – h o w d o y o u c o m e t o t h a t c o n cl u si o n ? M a y b e j u st f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f t h i s e x e r ci s e h o w d o y o u c o m e t o t h e co n cl u si o n t h a t yo u r u n d e r st a n d i n g w a s I w a s i n st r u ct i n g h i m ? M a y b e st a r t t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: We l l m a y b e l e t u s p u t i t t h i s w a y. I f yo u s a y I w a s n o t i n st ru ct i n g h i m t h e n y o u h a v e a n s w e r e d t h e Page 89 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 q u e st i o n . I f h e h a s f u rt h e r i s s u e s – h e h a s a n i s s u e w i t h y o u r a n s w e r h e w i l l f o l l o w u p . I f n o t i t f a l l s a w a y. MR NHLEKO: Hm. N o H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r I u n d e r st a n d t h e d e b a t e a l s o t h e r e i s c u l t u r a l c o n f l i ct h e r e i n a s e n s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R N H L E K O : Yo u k n o w t h a t i s a c o u rt a p p r o a c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R N H L E K O : O k a y b u t f o r m e u n d e r st a n d i n g t h a t t h i s i n a n i n q u i r y. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: Yo u kn o w it also b e co m e s useful to u n d e r st a n d a n i n f o r m i n g st a t e o f m i n d b e h i n d a p a rt i c u l a r q u e st i o n and draw a co n cl u si o n . I am j u st m a ki n g an example. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I u n d e r st a n d t h a t . MR NHLEKO: Yo u know b e c a u se I do not want to u n d e r st a n d M r H u l l e y a s sa y i n g t h a t t h i s i s w h a t I s a i d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R N H L E K O : Yo u k n o w s o t h a t i s w h y I … 20 CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e l e t u s d o i t t h i s w a y. Mr Hulley put y o u r – t h e b a si s f o r y o u r s u g g e st i o n t o h i m t o s a y t h i s i s y o u r s u g g e st i o n t h a t t h i s w a s a n i n st r u ct i o n b e ca u s e b a se d on this and then he can respond. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. When I listened to y o u r t e st i m o n y y e st e r d a y, I u n d e r st o o d y o u h a d t e l e p h o n e d Page 90 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 h i m i n o r d e r t o i n st ru ct h i m b a s e d o n w h a t y o u h a d t e st i f i e d i n st r u ct e d t h a t h e w a s t o c o o p e r a t e . wrong about that. I might be – I might be M y r e c o l l e ct i o n m a y b e h a zy. But that w a s c e rt a i n l y m y u n d e r st a n d i n g . M R N H L E K O : Yo u a r e c o r r e ct i n so f a r a s y e s I d i d t e l e p h o n e h i m y o u a r e c o r re ct . Yo u a r e i n c o r r e ct i n s o f a r a s y o u u n d e r st o o d t h a t t o m e a n a n i n st ru ct i o n . c o o p e r a t e a n d t h a t i s b a s i ca l l y i t . I re q u e st e d h i m t o Th a n k yo u C h a i r. And m a y I a l s o t h a t t h e l e v e l o f [ i n d i st i n ct 0 1 : 2 2 : 1 6 ] h a s i m p r o v e d 10 a little bit. N o i t i s a l i t t l e b i t b e t t e r. As to whether it is c o m f o rt a b l e a s t o t h e s a m e e xt e n t a s t h e C h a i r w h e r e h e i s s e a t e d a n d s o o n t h a t i s a d i ff e r e n t m a t t e r t o o . C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l I c a n t e l l y o u t h a t i t i s o n l y i n m y l e g s that I feel some warmth. On my upper body I feel quite cold a s w e l l . Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t t h a n k y o u . Ye s M r H u l l e y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: for something. M a y I a s k t h i s w h i l e M r H u l l e y i s l o o ki n g I n t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e w a s t h e re – w a s t h e r e a n y r e a s o n w h y u n d e r 5 . 3 y o u d o n o t h a ve t o l o o k I w i l l 20 t e l l y o u w h a t i t s a y s w h y i t w a s n e ce s s a r y t o sp e ci f y t h e names of Lieutenant General Dramat and Major General S i b i y a w h e r e y o u s a y We r k s m a n s h a d t o d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r – o r i n v e st i g a t e w h e t h e r t h e r e i s p ri m a f a ci e e vi d e n ce o f m i s c o n d u ct Dramat, and Major cri m i n a l General liability Sibiya by and Page 91 of 239 Lieutenant G e n e ra l any o ff i c e r s other 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 m e n t i o n e d i n t h e o ri g i n a l r e p o rt . s a yi n g that to i n v e st i g a t e A s o p p o s e d t o si m p l y whether there is p ri m a facie e vi d e n c e o f m i s c o n d u ct a n d c ri m i n a l l i a b i l i t y b y a n y o ff i c e r s m e n t i o n e d i n t h e re p o rt . Wa s t h e r e a p a rt i c u l a r re a s o n w h y the two were specifically mentioned by name? MR NHLEKO: Yo u k n o w I s u p p o s e i t i s a n e x p l i c i t l y i n a s e n se b e c a u s e t h e b o n e o f co n t e n t i o n w a s t h e b a si s o f c o n t e n t i o n h e r e w a s t h e q u e st i o n o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s a n d s u b se q u e n t l y 10 the r e co m m e n d a t i o n s. One set of re c o m m e n d a t i o n s w i t h e x p l i ci t l y t h e n a m e s o f t h e i n d i vi d u a l s that the Chair has r e f e r re d to. The other set of re c o m m e n d a t i o n t h i s o t h e r e n d o f t h e s e co n d – s o c a l l e d s e c o n d r e p o rt t h o s e t h i n g s h a v e n o t b e e n t a ke n o u t a n d s o o n . S o I s u p p o se t h a t i s t h e r e a s o n w h y i t w a s t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s t h e re a s o n j a . M R N H L E K O : Ye s t h a t w a s t h e r e a s o n w h y t w o – y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. t h i s b u t l e t m e a s k. area 20 w h e re yo u I d o n o t k n o w i f Mr H u l l e y c o v e r e d B e a ri n g i n m i n d y o u r e vi d e n c e t h a t t h e were to make d e ci si o n s related to d i s ci p l i n a r y m a t t e r s a n d n o t t o c ri m e t h e N PA w o u l d d e ci d e m a t t e r s o f c ri m e . MR NHLEKO: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: W h y w a s i t n o t e n o u g h i n 5 . 3 i n t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e t o s a y t h e y m u st i n v e st i g a t e w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s p r i m a f a ci e e vi d e n ce o f m i s c o n d u ct ? Page 92 of 239 B e ca u s e i s i t n o t 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 a n yt h i n g t h a t i s a cri m e w o u l d f a l l u n d e r m i s c o n d u ct a s w e l l or would it not? MR NHLEKO: will be N o b u t t h e p o i n t C h a i r i s t h e re i s n o w a y y o u r e sp o n si b l e for a policy p o rt f o l i o and not be c o n ce r n e d w i t h a si t u a t i o n w h e r e y o u r o ff i c e r s a re i m p l i ca t e d i n cr i m e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: T h e r e i s a b s o l u t e l y n o w a y. I think you will b e t o t a l l y so rt o f r e m i s s i n yo u r re s p o n si b i l i t y n o t t o b e 10 c o n ce r n e d a b o u t t h a t . M u c h a s y o u a r e n o t t h e p ro s e c u t i o n a u t h o ri t y f o r a n e x a m p l e b u t y o u k n o w f r o m j u st y o u r b o t h c o n st i t u t i o n a l a n d i n st i t u t i o n a l d u t y y o u s h o u l d b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h i s y o u k n o w. A n d I t h i n k a s a m a t t e r o f f a ct I t h i n k i f – r e m e m b e r i t i s t h e i r w o r kp l a c e ri g h t ? They have got to u p h o l d t h e l a w a t a l l m a t e ri a l t i m e s. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: F o l l o w p o l i c y t o t h e l e t t e r a n d s o f o rt h . T h e y h a ve t o b e t h e f a c e o f t h e i n st i t u t i o n b u t a l s o b e i n g – t h e y h a ve t o b e t h e f a c e o f o u r c o n st i t u t i o n a n d t h e u l t i m a t e 20 o u t l o o k o f o u r s o c i e t y. allegation that this O k a y. o ff i c e r N o w – b u t t h e n yo u h a v e t h i s is involved in c ri m e in the c o m m i s si o n o f c ri m e ri g h t ? CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: So indeed, that does something re p u t a t i o n o f t h e i n st i t u t i o n . Page 93 of 239 to the 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: O k a y a n d o f c o u r s e y o u w i l l n o t n e c e s s a ri l y p r o s e c u t e t h i s e m p l o y e e o n t h e b a si s t h a t yo u c o m m i t t e d A B C w h i c h f a l l s u n d e r c ri m i n a l a ct i vi t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u w a n t t o k n o w. MR NHLEKO: But you want to know and if that has h a p p e n e d i t i s a d i s r e p u t e t o t h e i m a g e o f t h e i n st i t u t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R N H L E K O : T h a n k s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : M r H u l l e y. ADV HULLEY SC: Th a n k yo u M r C h a i r. C o u l d I a s k yo u t o turn with me to Bundle LEA7. M R N H L E K O : Ye s g o a h e a d S i r. CHAIRPERSON: Okay he has got it. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u M r C h a i r. I t i s C H A I R P E R S O N : S o rr y w h a t … ADV HULLEY SC: I believe it is… 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o rr y w h a t d i d yo u s a y? ADV HULLEY SC: It is… CHAIRPERSON: Bundle? A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s B u n d l e Y – s o r r y L E A 7 M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Is it the one marked Y8[H]? A D V H U L L E Y S C : I t i s. S o rr y Y 8 [ G ] p a r d o n m e M r C h a i r. I t Page 94 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 is Y8[G]. CHAIRPERSON: LEA? A D V H U L L E Y S C : L E A 7 M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u n d l e L E A 7 o ka y. ADV HULLEY SC: Th a t i s c o rr e ct . A n d t h e s p e ci f i c e x h i b i t i s Y 8 [ U ] . I t i s a t p a g e 3 0 0 a n d 3 3 4 2 Mr C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 3000? ADV HULLEY SC: 342. CHAIRPERSON: 3342? 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: Th i s i s a n a ff i d a vi t b y M r N h l e k o . Can I ask you Mr Nhleko if you would turn with me to page 3347 of that document? CHAIRPERSON: LEA? A D V H U L L E Y S C : L E A ( 7 ) M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u n d l e L E A ( 7 ). O k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: Th a t i s c o rr e ct . A n d t h e s p e ci f i c e x h i b i t i s Y 8 U . I t i s a t p a g e 3 3 4 2 M r C h a i r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Three thousand...? ADV HULLEY SC: 342. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h r e e , t h r e e , f o u r, t w o ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ? ADV HULLEY SC: Th i s i s a n a ff i d a vi t b y M r N h l e k o . Page 95 of 239 Can I 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 a s k yo u M r N h l e k o i f y o u c a n t u rn w i t h t o p a g e 3 3 4 7 o f t h a t d o cu m e n t ? CHAIRPERSON: What page? A D V H U L L E Y S C : 3 3 4 7 M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y, j u st t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d . T h a t i s t h e . . . t h a t i s a n a ff i d a vi t b y t h e w i t n e s s d e a l i n g w i t h a l l e g a t i o n s b y M r K h u b a st a rt i n g . . . i t st a rt s a t 3 3 4 2 . Yo u s a y w e m u st g o t o 3 3 4 7 ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s c o r r e ct M r C h a i r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, c o n t i n u e . ADV HULLEY SC: T h e si g n a t u r e o n p a g e 3 3 4 7 s i r, i s t h a t y o u r si g n a t u r e ? M R N H L E K O : I s e e m t o h a ve a . . . I d o h a v e a 3 3 4 7 b u t I a m not following the page. ADV HULLEY SC: R i g h t . . . a t t h e t o p ri g h t o f t h e c o r n e r, page 3347. MR NHLEKO: Right. ADV HULLEY SC: 3347. M R N H L E K O : I w a s . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t i s s o m e w h e r e t o w a r d s t h e ri g h t t o w a r d s t h e e n d i f i t i s t h e . . . i f yo u h a v e g o t t h e ri g h t o n e . MR NHLEKO: Ja. No, no, no. I a m g e t t i n g t h i rt y, f o rt y - s e v e n . I n f a ct , I t h i n k I w a s t h e r e a n d I s a w s o m e t h i n g e l se . C H A I R P E R S O N : M y co n c e rn i s t h a t y o u . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV HULLEY SC: T h e ve r y l a st p a g e o r t h e v e r y l a st Page 96 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 d o cu m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: My concern is that yo u are at the b e g i n n i n g o f t h e b u n d l e w h e r e a s t h i s p a g e i s o n e o f t h e l a st ones in the bundle. M R N H L E K O : T h i rt y, f o rt y - s e ve n . CHAIRPERSON: 3347. MR NHLEKO: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: 3347. ADV MOKHARI SC: 10 I a m s o r ry. R e f e r ri n g t o h i s. . . a r e y o u re f e rr i n g t o t h e a ff i d a vi t o f F r i d a y ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t i s ri g h t . A D V M O K H A R I S C : Ye s. S o t h a t i s t h e F r i d a y a ff i d a vi t . CHAIRPERSON: H’m. M R N H L E K O : T h i rt y-t h re e , f o rt y - s e v e n ? CHAIRPERSON: 3347. M R N H L E K O : W h e r e d i d I g e t t h e z e r o f r o m ? Th e o t h e r d a y it was 3047. CHAIRPERSON: I t m u st b e M r H u l l e y’s p r o n u n ci a t i o n . Mr H u l l e y. [ l a u g h s] 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s, C h a i r. [ l a u g h s] M R N H L E K O : [ I n d i st i n ct ] e d u c a t e d C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 3347. MR NHLEKO: 3347. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , 3 3 4 7 . Ja , o k a y. MR NHLEKO: N o t h a n k s. And thanks and apologies Mr Page 97 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 H u l l e y t o g e t t h i s t h i n g ri g h t . A D V H U L L E Y S C : I s t h a t y o u r si g n a t u r e si r? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, t h a t i s m y si g n a t u r e si r. ADV HULLEY SC: A n d t h i s i s a n a ff i d a vi t t h a t y o u h a v e d e p o s e d t o o n t h e 2 4 t h o f J u l y 2 0 2 0 . I s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R N H L E K O : T h a t i s ve r y c o r r e ct si r. ADV HULLEY SC: Now I would like you to turn with me and if you will go to paragraph... to page 3345 paragraph 7? M R N H L E K O : Ye s. 10 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Yo u s a y: “I c o n f i r m c a l l i n g M r K h u b a . This was after I had b e e n m a d e a w a r e b y We r k sm a n s t h a t h e w a s n o t cooperating with them. I t i s cl e a r f r o m t h e a b o v e e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a n d M r K h u b a t h a t t h e p u rp o s e o f m y c a l l t o h i m w a s t o e n t r u st h i m t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e We r k sm a n s i n t h e i r i n ve st i g a t i o n . Nothing more and n o t h i n g l e s s. . . ” MR NHLEKO: H’m? 20 ADV HULLEY SC: S o y o u s a y t h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e ca l l w a s t o i n st r u ct h i m t o c o o p e r a t e . I s t h a t c o rr e ct ? MR NHLEKO: I t i s c l e a r f ro m t h e a b o v e e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n the chairperson... Who is the chairperson? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th e C h a i rp e r s o n b e f o r e yo u t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t p a r a g r a p h c o m e s a f t e r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 98 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 M R N H L E K O : D i d t h a t n o t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: T h a t p a ra g r a p h s o f y o u r a ff i d a vi t c o m e s a f t e r t h e q u o t a t i o n o f M r K h u b a ’s e vi d e n c e i n . . . f ro m t h e t ra n s c ri p t , I t h i n k. MR NHLEKO: him? N o , b u t w h e r e d o e s i t s a y t h a t h e i n st r u ct e d B e c a u s e i t i s a r e f e r e n ce t o a n e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n t h e C h a i r p e r s o n f o r t h e C o m m i s si o n a n d Mr K h u b a . CHAIRPERSON: Look at the.... look at the second line of p a r a g ra p h 7 se c o n d se n t e n c e . I t s a y s: 10 “I t i s cl e a r f r o m t h e a b o v e e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a n d M r K h u b a t h a t t h e p u rp o s e o f m y c a l l t o h i m w a s t o i n st r u ct h i m t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h We r k sm a n s i n t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n . N o t h i n g m o re a n d n o t h i n g l e s s. S o I f i n d i t r a t h e r c u ri o u s t h a t d e sp i t e M r K h u b a st a t i n g c a t e g o ri ca l l y t h a t I d i d n o t p ro p o s e t h a t I m e e t w i t h h i m i n C a p e To w n b u t t h a t i t w a s m y PA t h a t proposed the Chairperson continue to speculate that I w a n t e d M r K h u b a t o co m e t o C a p e To w n t o m e e t 20 with me...” We l l , y o u h a v e n o t b e e n a s k e d a b o u t t h e se c o n d a n d t h e l a st s e n t e n c e . Yo u h a ve b e e n a s k e d a b o u t t h e o n e b e f o r e b u t I w a s r e a d i n g j u st i n ca s e t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h e r e . M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] CHAIRPERSON: So. [ l a u g h s] I am not going to say Page 99 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 a n yt h i n g a b o u t i t . M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: No, I do not u n d e r st o o d a s a n i n st ru ct i o n . know if my r e q u e st was M a y b e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] b u t t h e p o i n t i s, I a s k e d h i m t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n . ADV HULLEY SC: Now but let us get back to page 638. CHAIRPERSON: We l l , m a y b e b e f o r e y o u g o . M r H u l l e y a n d . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] 10 That is why It is not... this sentence does n o t s a y M r K h u b a u n d e r st o o d w h a t yo u s a i d t o h i m a s a n i n st r u ct i o n . I t i s y o u s p e a ki n g , s a yi n g t h e p u rp o s e . . . s a yi n g “i t i s cl e a r f r o m t h e a b o v e e x c h a n g e t h a t i s b e t w e e n m e a n d M r K h u b a ” t h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r c a l l t o h i m w a s t o i n st r u ct h i m t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h We r k sm a n s. I n o t h e r w o rd s, i f w h a t y o u h a v e j u st s a i d a f t e r w e l o o k e d a t t h e se n t e n ce , s u g g e st s t h a t . . . y o u w e re s u g g e st i n g t h a t i f w h a t y o u s a i d w a s u n d e r st o o d a s a n i n st r u ct i o n . S o I a m s a yi n g b u t y o u a r e t h e o n e s p e a ki n g i n t h i s 20 s e n t e n c e s a yi n g “i t i s cl e a r f r o m t h e e x ch a n g e b e t w e e n m y se l f a n d K h u b a ” t h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r c a l l w a s t o i n st r u ct h i m . A n d y o u c o n t i n u e t o s a y, “ n o t h i n g m o r e , n o t h i n g l e s s ”. S o t h e s e n t e n c e d o e s n o t s a y K h u b a s a i d , “ h e u n d e r st o o d t h a t I w a s i n st r u ct i n g h i m b u t a ct u a l l y h e i s m i st a k e n n o w. Page 100 of 239 I 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 w a s n o t i n st r u ct i n g h i m ”. As you are saying the exchange reveals that “the p u r p o s e o f m y c a l l w a s t o i n st r u ct h i m a n d n o t h i n g m o r e a n d n o t h i n g l e s s ”. M R N H L E K O : H ’ m ? N o , t h a t i s f i n e . I k n o w . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w ? O k a y. A l ri g h t . M R N H L E K O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M r H u l l e y ? ADV HULLEY SC: 10 T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. I f w e ca n t h e n g o b a c k t o t h e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e w h i c h a p p e a r s i n B u n d l e LM2 and to page 638 of that bundle. CHAIRPERSON: What page should we go to? A D V H U L L E Y S C : 6 3 8 M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Six-hundred...? A D V H U L L E Y S C : S i x, t h r e e , e i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S i x, t h re e , e i g h t . Ye s ? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e si r. T h e se a r e t h e A n d I w a n t t o j u st p i c k u p o n t h e d i st i n ct i o n t h a t y o u h a v e m a d e w i t h re f e r e n c e t o a n o ff e n c e . 20 Yo u sa i d t h a t yo u a c k n o w l e d g e t h a t a n o ff e n c e m i g h t r e f e r t o a cri m i n a l o ff e n c e b u t y o u sa i d y o u r f o c u s w a s r e a l l y o n m i s c o n d u ct f o r p u r p o s e s o f d i s ci p l i n a r y p r o c e s s e s. Is that c o r r e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, t h a t i s c o rr e ct s i r. ADV HULLEY SC: N o w, I j u st w a n t t o u n d e r st a n d . . . i f yo u Page 101 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 c a n r e a d . . . re a d t h a t s e n t e n c e t o m e a g a i n , p a r a g r a p h 5 . 2 a n d t h e n r e c o n si d e r y o u r a n s w e r. MR NHLEKO: W h i c h s a y s “ w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a p ri m a f a ci e e vi d e n c e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV HULLEY SC: 5.2. MR NHLEKO: W h a t d o e s i t sa y ? H o w d o e s i t st a r t ? I am . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V H U L L E Y S C : “ We r e t h e r e a n y m i s . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] MR NHLEKO: Ja. 10 “ We r e t h e r e a n y m i s c o n d u ct o r o ff e n c e h a s b e e n committed, and if so, by whom?...” ADV HULLEY SC: S o w h a t yo u a r e su g g e st i n g i s t h a t s e n t e n c e a s y o u u n d e r st o o d i t o r w h a t y o u h a d i n t e n d e d t o c o n ve y w a s “ w h e t h e r a n y m i s co n d u ct o r m i s c o n d u ct ( si c ) h a s been committed, and if so, by whom.” Is that what you are s a yi n g ? MR NHLEKO: I t s a y s, “ w h e t h e r a n y m i s c o n d u ct o r o ff e n ce , and if so, by who?” ADV HULLEY SC: 20 S o cl e a rl y y o u a r e d r a w i n g a d i s t i n ct i o n b e t w e e n m i s c o n d u ct , w h i c h i s o f a d i s ci p l i n a r y n a t u r e a s b e t w e e n e m p l o y e r a n d e m p l o y e e , a n d a n o ff e n c e , w h i c h i s o f a c ri m i n a l n a t u r e w h i ch m a y i n v o l v e a n o t h e r p e r s o n o r i t m a y. . . b u t i s a m a t t e r f o r t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s. Wo u l d t h a t b e f a i r t o sa y ? M R N H L E K O : N o , i t i s n o t f a i r. B e c a u se y o u c o u l d a l s o u s e Page 102 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 t h e t e rm o ff e n c e a s a m a t t e r o f e m p h a se s. ADV HULLEY SC: S o r r y, I d o n o t f o l l o w w h a t y o u a re s a yi n g . M R N H L E K O : I a m s a yi n g C h a i r y o u c o u l d . . . o r u s e t h e t e r m o ff e n c e a s a m a t t e r o f e m p h a s e s, m i s c o n d u ct a n d / o r o ff e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ] MR NHLEKO: B u t i t i s. . . i t d o e s n o t su g g e st t h a t t h e . . . b e ca u s e o n c e y o u . . . o n c e y o u w a n t t o s u g g e st t h a t t h e usage 10 of the term o ff e n c e applies only to c ri m i n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n s, I t h i n k t h a t i s i n c o r r e ct . CHAIRPERSON: I w i l l t e l l y o u w h a t I e x p e ct e d y o u r a n s w e r to be. Based on what you said with regard to 5.3 where you h a ve a r e f e r e n c e w i t h m i s co n d u ct a n d c ri m i n a l l i a b i l i t y a n d b a se d o n w h a t y o u s a i d w h y y o u w o u l d n e v e rt h e l e s s b e i n t e r e st e d t o k n o w w h e t h e r a m e m b e r o f t h e p o l i c e s e r vi c e h a d c o m m i t t e d a c ri m e . Based on that, I would imagine that when in 5.2 you talk about misconduct and o ff e n c e , it would fit within that u n d e r st a n d i n g . 20 Yo u w a n t t o k n o w i f t h e re i s m i s c o n d u ct c o m m i t t e d b y m e m b e r o f t h e p o l i c e s e r vi c e . M i s c o n d u ct w h i c h i s n o t a c ri m e . B u t yo u a r e a l so i n t e r e st e d t o k n o w i f t h e r e i s a cr i m i n a l o ff e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n c o m m i t t e d b y t h e p o l i c e s e r vi c e . In o t h e r w o r d s, y o u a r e n o t co n f i n i n g y o u r s e l f t o d i s ci p l i n a r y Page 103 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 m i s c o n d u ct o n l y. Yo u a re a l so i n t e r e st e d i n k n o w i n g w h e t h e r a m e m b e r o f t h e p o l i c e s e r vi c e h a s c o m m i t t e d a cri m i n a l o ff e n c e . So to m e i t se e m s t h a t t h i s i s w h a t I w o u l d e x p e ct y o u t o s a y, g i vi n g t h e a n s w e r y o u g a v e e a rl i e r o n . MR NHLEKO: Ye s. L o o k, I a c c e p t t h a t C h a i r. o n e w a y o f l o o ki n g a t i t . That is also B u t y o u a l s o e a rl i e r m a d e a p o i n t a n d I h a v e s a i d e v e r y w o r kp l a c e i s g o v e r n e d b y a s e t o f p o l i ci e s a n d ru l e s a n d r e g u l a t i o n s. 10 B u t a l s o , a n o ff e n c e c a n b e c o m m i t t e d a t a w o r k p l a c e level. F o r i n st a n c e , . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] a c e rt a i n f a ct . Whether it c o u l d b e c ri m i n a l o r p u re l y a n i s s u e o f m i s c o n d u ct . S o f r o m n o t s o rt o f g e n e r a l u n d e r s t a n d i n g p o i n t o f v i e w, I a l s o t h i n k t h e u s a g e a n d t h e a p p l i c a t i o n o f t h e t e rm o ff e n c e should not be c o n st r u e d necessarily to mean c ri m i n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n , y o u k n o w. A s m u ch a s t h e C h a i r i s c o rr e c t i n r e s p e ct o f t h i s p a rt i c u l a r s p e ci f i c m a t t e r r e l a t i n g t o t h e m e r e f a ct t h a t t h e r e w a s a cr i m i n a l i n v e st i g a t i o n c o n d u ct e d a n d o n e r e p o rt s a i d 20 t h i s a n d t h e o t h e r re p o rt sa i d t h a t a n d so o n . So I accept that but I am also broadening it out as I b e l i e ve su c h a t y p e o f a n o ff e n c e d o e s n o t n e c e s s a ri l y m e a n t h a t i f a n y b o d y s a y s, “ J a , b u t i t i s a n o ff e n c e f o r y o u t o d o t h i s”, t h e n t h a t w o u l d m e a n y o u h a v e c o m m i t t e d a c ri m e o r something. Page 104 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: I d o n o t t h i n g w e sh o u l d s p e n d t o o m u c h time ...[intervenes] A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . o n t h i s b u t I t h i n k t h e re a s o n w a s si m p l e b e ca u s e w h e n y o u sa y m i s c o n d u ct , t h a t w o u l d c o v e r a c e rt a i n c a t e g o ry, w h e r e y o u sa y o ff e n c e , i t m i g h t m e a n w h a t e v e r i s n o t c o v e r e d u n d e r m i s c o n d u ct m i g h t f a l l u n d e r o ff e n c e . MR NHLEKO: H’m. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R N H L E K O : O k a y. N o , t h a n k s C h a i r. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. And of course, w h a t y o u m u st b e a r i n m i n d i s t h a t w h e n t h i s m a t t e r h a v e b e e n h a n d e d o v e r t o We r k sm a n s p u r s u a n t t o t h i s t e rm . . . t o t h e se t e rm s of re f e r e n c e that you have outlined here, G e n e r a l D r a m a t h a d a l r e a d y b e e n s u s p e n d e d s o m e t w o -a n d a - h a l f m o n t h s b e f o r e t h a t . I s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, I h e a r yo u . ADV 20 HULLEY SC: And here we are a s ki n g him to i n v e st i g a t e t h e v e r y i s s u e t h a t h e h a d a l r e a d y t a k e n a d e ci si o n o n . M R N H L E K O : A n d w h a t w a s t h a t d e ci si o n M r H u l l e y ? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a t h e sh o u l d b e s u sp e n d e d . MR NHLEKO: H’m. A D V H U L L E Y S C : B e c a u se . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 105 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: Let me come into this because I think the... a n d s o m e t i m e s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] t h e H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r st ra n g e t h a t e v e n l a w y e r s , t h e y m i s s t h e p o i n t w h e n i t co m e s t o t h i s i s s u e o f t h e s u sp e n si o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: I n f a ct , t h e c o r r e ct t e r m i n t h e p u b l i c s e r v i ce c o n t e xt i s p r e - c a u t i o n a r y s u s p e n si o n . A n d a l l i t d o e s r e a l l y, i t s a y s a s s o a n d s o , t h e re a r e t h e se a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t a r e l e v e l l e d a g a i n st y o u a n d w e , i n o t h e r w o r d s a s t h e e m p l o y e r, 10 would like to have an o p p o rt u n i t y to i n v e st i g a t e these m a t t e r s f u rt h e r. B u t i n s o d o i n g , t h e y sh o u l d n o t b e a n e l e m e n t o f i n t e rf e re n c e a n d / o r p e r c e i v e d i n t e rf e r e n c e , y o u k n o w. S o w e are also addressing the issue of perception. So which m e a n s, t h e r e i s n o d e ci si o n a g a i n st y o u i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e a l l e g e d vi o l a t i o n . I t i s j u st f o r t h e e m p l o y e r t o e st a b l i s h f a ct s a r o u n d t h i s a n d t h e n t a k e i t o n f ro m t h e re , w h e t h e r o r n o t a n d w h a t e v e r. B u t f o r s o m e st r a n g e r e a s o n , m a n y p e o p l e i n cl u d i n g l e g a l 20 p r a ct i t i o n e r s h a v e b e g u n t o u n d e r st a n d s u s p e n si o n i s a p u n i t i ve m e a su r e w h e n i t i s n o t . I n f a ct , s u s p e n s i o n a l s o d e a l s w i t h t h e q u e st i o n o f e v e n p r o t e ct i n g t h e example. same employee. So I will give you an I a m w o r ki n g f o r t h e C o m m i s si o n w h i c h I t r u l y h o p e n e v e r h a p p e n s. B u t I a m m a k i n g a n e x a m p l e C h a i r, Page 106 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 t h a t I w o r k f o r t h i s C o m m i s si o n b u t r e ve r e n d . . . I t h i n k t h e r e i s a R e ve r e n d S t i m e l a . CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Stimela. MR NHLEKO: Ye s. Is a co-worker with me. So but the allegation involve our unit, whatever our unit is within the C o m m i s si o n t o g e t h e r w i t h R e v e r e n d S t i m e l a . N o w a n d t h e a l l e g a t i o n s, i t i s m e w h o a r e f a ci n g t h e m . I f I a m n o t r e m o v e d f ro m t h e w o r k p l a c e f o r a f u rt h e r. . . f o r i n v e st i g a t i o n t o t a k e p l a c e , i t i s l i k e l y t h a t w h e n I c o m e i n 10 o n e d a y a n d I h a v e a s o u r f a ce , y o u k n o w, a n d I l o o k a t Reverend Stimela. R e v e r e n d S t i m e l a c o u l d e a si l y t u r n a r o u n d a n d s a y, “ H e y, h e y, h e y ”. A n d t h e n i n w h i ch t h i s g e n t l e m a n l o o k e d a t m e , I c a n r e a l i se h e i s r e a l l y u p i n a r m s a g a i n st m e b e ca u s e h e i s b e i n g i n v e st i g a t e d a n d s o f o rt h . So it is also about isolating the very same employee not b e s u b j e ct e d t o a w h a t ? . . . u n n e c e s s a r y n e g a t i v e s o rt o f p e r c e p t i o n s e v e n a t a w o r k p l a ce l e v e l . But 20 si m i l a rl y, you would a l so have to p r o t e ct the i n st i t u t i o n a l p r o c e s s a n d i n f o rm a t i o n a s w e l l , a m o n g st o t h e r t h i n g s. S o t h e r e i s n o p o l l u t i o n t h a t t a ke s p l a c e t h e r e . S o t h a t i s h o w i t h a s g o t t o b e u n d e r st o o d . So I am ra i si n g t h i s p o i n t b e ca u s e t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h M r H u l l e y i s ra i si n g this issue, e m b ra c e s this negative concept or d e f i n i t i o n o f t h i s c o n ce p t o f s u s p e n si o n w h i c h s e e m t o h a v e Page 107 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 t a k e n a r o u t e o u t t h e r e i n s o ci e t y t h a t i f y o u su s p e n d a n y. . . s o m e b o d y i t i s b e c a u se t h a t p e r so n i s g u i l t y o f a n yt h i n g . It is not. C H A I R P E R S O N : M r H u l l e y. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k yo u , M r C h a i r. If I can move on. T h e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e y o u . . . b e f o r e y o u m o ve o n , l e t m e put this to you Mr Nhleko. M y u n d e r st a n d i n g i s t h a t m o st i f n o t a l l s u s p e n si o n s. . . m a y b e I s h o u l d st a y w i t h m o st a n d n o t 10 go to all. M o st s u s p e n si o n s, w h e t h e r y o u a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t t h e p r i va t e s e ct o r or the public s e ct o r, s u s p e n si o n s of e m p l o y e e s a r e n o t b a s e d o n a n y f i n d i n g t h a t h a s a l re a d y m a d e t h a t t h e e m p l o y e e i s g u i l t y. T h e y a re a ff e ct e d t o a l l o w s o m e f o rm o f i n v e st i g a t i o n t o t a k e p l a c e b e f o r e . . . t o t a k e p l a c e b e f o r e a d e ci si o n i s m a d e w h e t h e r t h e e m p l o y e e s h o u l d b e c h a r g e w i t h m i s co n d u ct o r not. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes they happen at a time when the i n v e st i g a t i o n h a s t a k e n p l a c e b u t t h e h e a ri n g , d i s ci p l i n a r y h e a ri n g a n d a d e ci si o n t o ch a r g e t h e e m p l o y e e h a s b e e n t a k e n b u t t h e r e a re . . . t h e r e i s g o i n g t o b e s o m e t i m e b e f o r e t h e h e a ri n g a ct u a l l y st a rt s a n d t h e e m p l o y e e i s s u s p e n d e d . T h e d e ci si o n w h e t h e r t h e e m p l o ye e i s g u i l t y o r n o t w o u l d Page 108 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 b e t a ke n b y t h e c h a i r p e r so n o f t h e d i s ci p l i n a r y i n q u i r y i n d u e course. So but n e ve rt h e l e s s, there is a general, I t h i n k, u n d e r st a n d i n g w i t h i n t h e p u b l i c s e c t o r a n d m a y b e t h e p ri v a t e s e ct o r, I a m n o t s u r e , t h a t b e f o re y o u a ff e ct e v e n t h a t s u s p e n si o n , y o u a s t h e e m p l o ye r w o u l d n e e d t o b e o f t h e p r i m a f a ci e v i e w t h a t t h e r e m a y b e s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e employee is guilty of. B e c a u s e o t h e r w i s e , i f y o u t h i n k t h e re i s n o b a s i s f o r t h i s 10 allegation you would not go that f a r. That is my u n d e r st a n d i n g o f t h e si t u a t i o n . MR NHLEKO: N o , b u t i f y o u h a d t o d o t h a t C h a i r, w h i l st I a g r e e l a r g e l y w i t h w h a t y o u h a ve j u st s a i d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: I f y o u w e r e t o a s s u m e g u i l t b e f o re t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n t h a t w o u l d b e u n f a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s ] MR NHLEKO: S o t h a t i s w h y I a m s a yi n g , i n t h e p u b l i c s e r v i ce g e n e r a l l y, a t l e a st w h e r e v e r I h a v e w o r k e d , i t i s 20 i m p o rt a n t t o e m p h a si s e p r e- c a u t i o n a r y s u s p e n si o n b e ca u s e t h e e m p h a se s o n p re c a u t i o n a r y, a l l i t d o e s i s i t t h e n s a y s, “L o o k, w e w a n t t o h a v e a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o h a v e . . . t o e x p l o r e t h i s m a t t e r f u rt h e r a n d so o n . A n d w e d o n o t w a n t y o u t o b e p e r c e i v e d n e g a t i v e l y i n t e r n a l l y w i t h i n t h e i n st i t u t i o n , n o r d o w e w a n t a l s o t o e x p e ri e n c e a s a n i n st i t u t i o n , f o r i n st a n ce a Page 109 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 si t u a t i o n w h e r e t h e r e i s i n t e r f e r e n c e w i t h t h e i n f o rm a t i o n t h a t w e r e q u i re f o r p u r p o se s o f i n v e st i g a t i o n ”. I a m a l s o a w a r e , b e ca u s e I t h i n k t h e C h a i r h a s a l so , y o u k n o w, b r o a d e n t h i s. . . e l u d e d t o . other i n st i t u t i o n s there is a I a m a w a re a l s o t h a t i n sentence of suspending s o m e b o d y w i t h o u t p a y f o r a p a rt i c u l a r d u ra t i o n , y o u k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : We j u st s e p a r a t e . M R N H L E K O : Ye s, w e j u st s e p a r a t e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 MR NHLEKO: B u t t h a t i s a f t e r a d i s ci p l i n a r y p r o c e s s w o u l d h a ve , y o u k n o w, e n s u e d a n d so o n . J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : H ’ m . Ja . MR NHLEKO: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: No, and the point you make is that the s u s p e n si o n yo u t a l k a b o u t i n t h e p u b l i c s e ct o r a n d t h e s u s p e n si o n w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t h e r e i n r e g a rd t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t , w a s a p r e - ca u t i o n a r y. M R N H L E K O : P r e - c a u t i o n a r y, ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t a p u n i t i v e o n e a f t e r a h e a ri n g . 20 M R N H L E K O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R N H L E K O : Ye s, C h a i r. T h a n k s. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. N o w . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: O h , I s e e w e a r e a t o n e o ’ cl o c k. Is e v e r y b o d y a m e n a b l e t h a t w e t a k e a s h o rt e r l u n c h b r e a k l i k e Page 110 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 this? A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Will that be fine Mr Nhleko? Will that fine? M R N H L E K O : O h , n o . I a m . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e f i n e ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e a r e t w o m o t i o n s. Either we would move now up to one and then we take the lunch break or we t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k n o w a n d c o m e b a c k a t h a l f -p a st o n e . I s 10 t h e r e a n y p a rt i c u l a r p r e f e r e n ce ? ADV HULLEY SC: Perhaps we should take the lunch break n o w M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: H’m. ADV HULLEY SC: I would imagine that it would be suitable f o r M r M o k h a ri b e c a u se I s u s p e ct w e a r e g o i n g t o g o i n t o h i s f i r st a p p o i n t m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O k a y l e t u s t a k e t h e l u n c h b re a k n o w t h e n a n d t h e n w e w i l l r e s u m e a t h a l f - p a st o n e . Okay we adjourn. 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S: I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S ADV HULLEY SC: The understanding that there is at least prima facie case against the employee, would that be correct? Page 111 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: Ye s , p r e c a u t i o n a r y s u s p e n s i o n i s o n f u l l p a y, f u l l b e n e f i t s , w i t h t h e e x c e p t i o n t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t b e allowed to report for duty and you may have to surrender certain items belonging to the employer for – maybe those things will also be subjected to the same investigation and so on. ADV HULLEY SC: The point I am making is that you must be satisfied at the very least that the person that there is prima facie case against the person, is that correct? 10 MR NHLEKO: That is correct. ADV HULLEY SC: So against that backdrop, what was the purpose – because according to your terms of reference you have instructed Werksm ans to conduct an assessment or to conduct a process, they are entitled to interview witnesses in order to establish whether there is a prima facie case against General Dramat and Sibiya. MR NHLEKO: c o n c u r r e n t l y, i t i s Look that work was also running - if, for instance, what I said was I am putting you on suspension but I am also instituting an 20 investigation so the investigation by Werksmans, it is part of a – it is part of this work that needed to happen. Now remember that – I think I must have also indicated that in the letter that I sent to General Dramat and others, that the precautionary suspension, I think in the public services defined within 60 to 90 days, something Page 112 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 like that. So it was my intention that within a shorter period as much as possible of about 60 to 90 days you cannot keep the fate of a human individual hanging in the air b e c a u s e , I t h i n k , C h a i r, a s I h a d a l l u d e d t o e a r l i e r o n t h a t some of the things that concerned me, not only just with the police but also even in some of the areas in g o v e r n m e n t w h e r e v e r w o r k e d , i s t h e q u e s t i o n o f , y o u k n o w, somebody who stays at home for two years on suspension, 10 four years on suspension, seven years on suspension and so on, it does not make sense. So it is the swiftness that is necessary in regard to cases such as this and that is why it was important that you put somebody on suspension but start your investigation so that you establish the facts within the shorter period of time as possible. If there is nothing to be pursued in regard to the person that you have put on suspension, that person comes back to work but if there are matters that have got 20 to be pursued then you subject that person to a disciplinary process. ADV HULLEY SC: MR NHLEKO: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. Thank you. ADV HULLEY SC: Now you obtained the Werksmans’ report sometime in late April of 2015, is that correct? Page 113 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: Maybe, I have not checked the date. ADV HULLEY SC: bundle LEA1, If you would turn with me to EXHIBIT – Mr Chair, and the specific exhibit is …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: LEA1? ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: That is correct, Mr Chair. Okay, I have got LEA1. Yes? ADV HULLEY SC: And this is EXHIBIT Y8A. You have attached to that – your affidavit, you have attached the 10 Werksmans’ report. CHAIRPERSON: What page did you say? ADV HULLEY SC: The specific page number is page 187, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 187? ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: 187. 87? ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: ADV 20 HULLEY 87, that is correct. Oh, the last page of... SC: It is the very last page of the Werksmans’ report. CHAIRPERSON: Of the Werksmans’ report. Okay. ADV HULLEY SC: It is dated the 24 April 2015. Now that is approximately when you would have received it, is that correct? MR NHLEKO: Ja, as I said, Mr Hulley, it is – whether it Page 114 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 was this date or soon thereafter, I would not know, but I would not have the specifics of it. ADV HULLEY SC: And then arising out of that report, you have now received the report, arising out of it, I would imagine that you would considered the report, satisfied yourself as to its contents, the implications, would that be correct? MR NHLEKO: Yes, that is correct. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 And you would then have taken the decision about what to do with the report, is that correct? MR NHLEKO: ADV HULLEY investigation Correct. SC: was Now then we know instituted that against a Mr criminal Robert McBride, Mr Sesoko and Mr Khuba, is that correct? MR NHLEKO: Ja, I heard about them. ADV HULLEY SC: And the Werksmans’ report had made a recommendation that a criminal prosecution should be – or that a criminal case should be opened against them, is that right? 20 Well, perhaps we should read the report to be of assistance rather than to misquote. Let us turn to page 186 of that bundle. Look at paragraph 6.4.5. It says: “In the absence of any information as to which of the three cosignatories were responsible for the deletion of information from the first report, we recommend that Khuba, McBride and Sesoko be Page 115 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 charged criminally for defeating the ends of justice or obstructing the administration of justice and that disciplinary charges be brought against them in their capacities as employees.” As a fact they were charged criminally, is that right? MR NHLEKO: No, I heard about them being charged, yes. ADV HULLEY SC: Well, were you the impetus or were you the basis upon which – or let me rephrase that, did you open a charge against them? 10 MR NHLEKO: No, I do not run criminal investigations, sir. ADV HULLEY SC: MR NHLEKO: Pardon me? I did not run criminal investigations, in my capacity then as Minister. ADV HULLEY SC: No, no, fair enough, but I think anybody can open a criminal case. So the question to you is not …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: I guess the question is did you lay a complaint that led to their criminal prosecution? MR NHLEKO: 20 that the No, I think what must have happened is Werksmans – I nearly said Worksmen Compensation. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: The Werksmans Attorneys. The Workmen’s Compensation, there used to be something like that at some point. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Page 116 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: But the Werksmans’ investigation report, it made a variety of recommendations, so must have referred it to different sort of limits also to look at areas that were relevant and/or applicable to them or something, yes. ADV HULLEY SC: bundle LEA7. In fact, if you will turn with me to Are you moving on to another point or are you still …[intervenes] ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: 10 It is the same point. O h , o k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: We are just exploring something f u r t h e r, M r C h a i r. I f y o u w o u l d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: What page? ADV HULLEY SC: CHAIRPERSON: I t i s a t p a g e 3 2 11 . 3 2 11 ? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t , M r C h a i r, i t i s p a r t o f a docket and it is EXHIBIT Y8G. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV HULLEY SC: If you can turn, Mr Nhleko, to page 3211. Do you have the document? 20 MR NHLEKO: No, I am following you, though. So if you can just read it out to me. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: Yes, I think he will be able to follow you. Thank you, Mr Chair, this is a sworn statement by a certain Lieutenant Colonel Gwayi. MR NHLEKO: Wine? Page 117 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HULLEY SC: MR NHLEKO: Yes. Okay. CHAIRPERSON: Gwayi, I think. I am just mentioning, putting it that way in case if it is pronounced in the way that I think it may – might be – it s just that I do not know whether it is isiZulu or not but if it is isiZulu it would be Gwayi. MR NHLEKO: Oh, okay. CHAIRPERSON: 10 But it might not be isiZulu so... But you may or may not know who the person is so I thought you might know whether you know the person. MR NHLEKO: Oh, I thought Mr Hulley was just mentioning that there is this statement. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Okay, okay. But I have not heard the question, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay. ADV HULLEY SC: Now the sworn statement particularly seems to be – it is marked as A1 in the docket which from the instructions that I have received means that it is the 20 very first statement in the docket, it is the statement usually of the complaint, that is the statement that gives rise to the charge sheet or rather to the docket being opened. MR NHLEKO: No, I hear you and I am following, sir. ADV HULLEY SC: Now he says in paragraph 3 of his Page 118 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 statement, he says: “I have duly mandated to depose to…” Well, he actually says dispose but I imagine he intended to say: “…depose to this affidavit by the Acting National Head of the DPCI, General Berning Ntlemeza in my capacity as the office manager in the office of the National Head DPCI. functions, 10 dealing My duties entail, among other with the correspondence that needs the attention of the National Head or has been dealt with by the National Head DPCI. During the performance of my duties I have on the 8 May 2015 Police received as correspondence signed by the from Ministry of honourable Minister of Police, Mr N P T Nhleko to the effect of submission of the report compiled investigation Renditions. by the commission Werksmans’ into IPID Zimbabwean The report, therefore, elucidates some inconsistencies relating to two reports associated o 20 a single IPID Zimbabwean rendition investigation Nationals thus giving that rise to on the were an issue of subjected to investigation of perjury, corruption and defeating the ends of justice by either the IPID deponents that were interviewed, compilers of first and second IPID reports.” Page 119 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 Now are you familiar with the background leading up to this docket being opened? MR NHLEKO: No, I am not, there is something that you read out there which I find strange. I mean, I would not write as Minister of Police to somebody that I do not know and somebody who is not the duly delegated person of the institution in question. So I would not do that, so the person who deposed that affidavit, you said it is a Mr or Ms Wayi? 10 ADV HULLEY SC: MR NHLEKO: ADV HULLEY Gwayi. I would not know that person. SC: Well, the person is saying …[intervenes] MR NHLEKO: So the person say I wrote to him or her, is it not? ADV HULLEY SC: He says: “During the performance of my duties I have on the 8 May 2015 received correspondence from Ministry of Police as signed by the honourable Minister of 20 Police, Mr N P T Nhleko to the effect of submission of the report investigation compiled by the commission Werksmans’ into IPID Zimbabwean Renditions.” MR NHLEKO: wrong with Honourable this Chair, there is something formulation because Page 120 of 239 there is a 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 presupposition that I must have written to this individual. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Well, certainly what …[intervenes] Unless this person says …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: What this individual suggests is that there is correspondence that came from you, whether it was directed to him or to somebody else but he refers to correspondence from you. MR NHLEKO: Right. CHAIRPERSON: 10 But I am not sure if it is clear whether the correspondence was directed to him or to somebody else but he refers to some correspondence from you. MR NHLEKO: Yes. Unless it is somebody who introduces himself or herself, let us say as registry clerk or somebody who receives correspondence and says this is what I have received from …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Well, he occupies – he does not occupy, I think – I think he is some – is he a Lieutenant Colonel? ADV HULLEY SC: Mr Chair, if you would consider the last …[intervenes] 20 CHAIRPERSON: South African Ja, his is a Lieutenant Colonel in the Police stationed at DPCI investigation offices in Silverton Pretoria at that time. MR NHLEKO: Ja. I do not know, I think it is something that would have to be …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to see the particular Page 121 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 …[intervenes] MR NHLEKO: No, it actually does not matter, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Ja, okay. It is just that I think it is something that requires further clarification at a later point. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Ja. Because there is no way that I would write to somebody who is not the head of the institution. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 I do not think it is …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Well what – it may be that you wrote to the head of DPCI but – and that correspondence was in the file that was given to this person for purposes of [inaudible – speaking simultaneously] MR NHLEKO: Supposedly by the head of DPCI, okay. CHAIRPERSON: whether Mr Yes. Hulley That is possible. I do not know would [inaudible – speaking simultaneously] as well. ADV HULLEY SC: Yes, I can be of assistance in that respect. If we could turn to page 3209, which is two pages 20 before that. CHAIRPERSON: 3209, yes. ADV HULLEY SC: Thank you, Mr Chair. This is the letter that he is referring to which is a letter dated the 8 May 2015 which has your name at the bottom and he has addressed to the Acting Head of Page 122 of 239 the DPCI, General 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 Ntlemeza, and it reads: “As the Minister of Police, I commissioned an investigation into the existence of a so-called two IPID investigation reports Zimbabwean Nationals. on renditions of Such an investigation was concluded by Werksmans Attorney on the 24 April 2015. This report is therefore referred to you for your consideration as it implicates some officials of the DPCI.” 10 MR NHLEKO: Okay. ADV HULLEY SC: MR NHLEKO: Okay. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: That is the document. So that makes sense? Ja, I seem to be – no, I seem to be having at least some sense, an administrative sense of perhaps what might have happened. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Ja, okay. It is just that earlier on, Chair, it sounded like I must have written to this Mr Wayi or Ms Wayi. 20 And that was my confusion then, but I am clarified, thanks. ADV HULLEY SC: Well, what I was trying to ascertain is this was written to General Ntlemeza because it concerned the officers under his command or people within his area under the DPCI, correct? MR NHLEKO: Correct. Page 123 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HULLEY SC: of the DPCI. It says that it implicates some officials Specifically, it seems to be referring to, amongst others, General Dramat, General Sibiya, correct? MR NHLEKO: Ja, I will take your formulation, ja, amongst others. ADV HULLEY SC: I think there may also be a certain Captain Maluleke. MR NHLEKO: Right. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 But those would be the three people from the DPCI who had been implicated in the Werksmans’ report. CHAIRPERSON: Just one second, Mr Hulley, you say we aim to try and finish at – or I did say we will try and finish at three. Mr Mokhari had indicated yesterday that his re- examination should not be longer than 30 minutes. just find out whether that is still the position? May I He agrees. So it seems that you may have to aim to finish not later than half past two. ADV HULLEY SC: 20 CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. J a , o k a y. Now what I am trying to understand is how the – the people who were implicated over here and the purpose of the report related, of course, to the DP CI, it was given to them for their purposes and if you are not in a position to assist us of course by all means say so but I am Page 124 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 trying to understand how we went from that to a criminal investigation that is open against IPID officials. If you can be of assistance. MR NHLEKO: No, I think, Mr Hulley, I would not be able to assist you there. Ja, I would not. CHAIRPERSON: Can I take you back while Mr Hulley is looking at something, to the decisions that you may have made with regard to – or arising from the Werksmans’ report. 10 Did you make any decision of a disciplinary nature arising out of that report and, if so, in regard to whom? Like deciding to suspend or that somebody must be – must face a disciplinary hearing, must face disciplinary charges. Did you make any decisions like that arising – based on that report? MR NHLEKO: Amongst others I think it was certainly the suspension of Mr McBride arising …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Of Mr McBride? Of Mr McBride, yes. CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR NHLEKO: Yes, yes. Arising out of that very same report. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: of authority Yes. Then, of course, I think the relevant levels then dealt with others …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. Page 125 of 239 but at my level 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: ..it was the question of Mr McBride, I think, out of that report. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. suspend arising anybody So in terms of any decision to out of that report, the only decision to suspend somebody that you took based on that report was to suspend Mr McBride. MR NHLEKO: Right. CHAIRPERSON: But he was only one in terms of the decision to suspend by yourself, not by somebody else. 10 MR NHLEKO: No, he was suspended by myself, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja, okay. Mr Khuba and Mr Sesoko would have been suspended by somebody else. MR NHLEKO: By somebody else, yes. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ja. And in terms of whether any criminal investigation should be pursued, did you make any decision - now I accept that you are not the prosecutors, you are not in the NPA. MR NHLEKO: Right. CHAIRPERSON: 20 But did you make any decision along the lines that the criminal justice system must – here is the report, they must make whatever decision they might wish to make. MR NHLEKO: Look, the report, Chair, referred to different sort of arms within the police service. They also needed to read it, analyse it on the basis of their area of function. Page 126 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Yes. And then decide what it is that would need to happen. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Yes. And I happy that the Chair qualifies this point that, you know, of course, I have got nothing to do with the NPA. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: 10 Ja. But also, the NPA itself, will not on the basis of merely a report out there in public then decide no, we are prosecuting. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Ja, make their own decision. Yes, yes, yes. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Ja. So the arms of investigations such as the police, whichever level it would be, would then be involved to look into that CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: 20 Yes. And then look at how they work with the NPA. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Yes. In the construction of charges, if any. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. decision to suspend Mr McBride. Let us talk about your Mr McBride was not a signatory to the first report, is that right? Page 127 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: Right. CHAIRPERSON: He was not a signatory to the first report. MR NHLEKO: Right. CHAIRPERSON: Indeed, the first report had been given to the NPA before he joined IPID. MR NHLEKO: Right. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Now what was your understanding of what you thought he had done wrong even if that was 10 not a final determination, just facie, prima that really needed to be investigated given that he signed the second report only and had not been there – he had not expressed or associated himself in any way with any views or analysis that may have been part of the first report on 22 January because he was not part of IPID at that time. So up to a certain point I do have some understanding of concern in relation to Mr Khuba, who has signed the first report which said one thing and signed the second report which said something contradictory, but I am 20 not sure that I understand in regard to Mr Sesoko and Mr McBride who only signed one report, namely the final report. So you, being the person who made the decision to suspend Mr McBride, I am trying – I would like you to assist me to understand in your own mind what did you see Page 128 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 as prima facie wrong as far as he was concerned? MR NHLEKO: Honourable Chair, two things. The first one is that the contention here is not about signing, okay, it is not about signing. different set of a And, of course, you know, it is a debate in terms of regulations and applicable laws and whatever, whatever, that is a different thing. But you know what we seem to be forgetting is that we are all governed by principles of accountability. For an example, if I were to follow the analogy by 10 the Chair, it would also apply to me to then say what do I have to do with the generation of a report by the Civilian Secretariat for Police which was done in 2012 because I was not there, I only became Minister in 2014. So which would mean any other work done before I came in, it is what I do not inherit, you know, I do not identify with it. In fact, I do not even want it. Government cannot work like that so I am just saying …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I do not think it is the same thing, maybe let me take you one step further. 20 What do you say to the proposition that says as far as Mr McBride was concerned, he had regard to whatever he had regard to and came to the conclusion that the report that comes to you, that is associated with him, must contain an analysis that he was happy with and recommendations that he felt he could justify, if the earlier report had a recommendation Page 129 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 that he felt he could not be justified or had an analysis that he felt could not justify, he may have said well, this one, that will have my signature, must contain what I can also stand for, what I can justify. Now what is wrong with that? MR NHLEKO: I w i l l t e l l y o u w h a t ’ s w r o n g w i t h t h a t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Ye s . F i r s t l y, i t t a k e s u s b a c k t o t h i s i s s u e o f , y o u have a report that is in there, you don’t nullify it and therefore you generate another one but the one that you’re 10 generating looks similar to the first one but materially you have tampered with it, that’s the issue. N o w, i n f a c t , t h e investigation clearly shows that there was no additional information in the second report, in fact what happened is that there was certain paragraphs and content, material content for that matter expunged from the first report to construct the second report. CHAIRPERSON: But when you say that, when you say that what comes across to me is, you are disagreeing with Mr 20 McBride’s approach you are disagreeing with his analysis, you are disagreeing with his recommendation. Yo u s a y, I d o n ’ t a g r e e w i t h t h i s a n a l y s i s , I d o n ’ t a g r e e , t h a t what was in the first report, those paragraphs should not a l s o b e i n t h i s r e p o r t b u t h e h a s t a k e n a d i f f e r e n t v i e w, I ’ m just taking a possible argument. He has taken a different v i e w, s o w h a t ’ s w r o n g w i t h t a k i n g a d i f f e r e n t v i e w ? Page 130 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: No…[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Do you punish somebody simply because t h e y h a v e a d i f f e r e n t v i e w. MR NHLEKO: No, I’m not [laughter]. CHAIRPERSON: I want you to assist me where I have – I need clarification so in other words…[intervenes]. MR NHLEKO: I t h i n k i t ’ s p o s s i b l e C h a i r, t h a t y o u m i g h t b e missing a point somewhere. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR NHLEKO: Ye s . A report, an investigation report is not about views, it’s not about …[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: But surely when they make a recommendation those are views? MR NHLEKO: C a n I f i n i s h C h a i r, t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n r e p o r t , it’s not about views. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Hmm hmm. What constitutes an investigation report are statements collected, sworn to statements collected from individuals, analysed, produced that report. 20 So, it’s not about views, with my view is that this and so on. So, if you have statements t h a t , c l e a r l y, whether it’s one or two individuals, that implicate you in relation to allegations of the commission of crime, for an example. So, you can’t then say I have a view about these sworn statements that actually you may not have committed that crime it doesn’t Page 131 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 w o r k t h a t w a y. N o w – a n d t h a t ’ s w h y, C h a i r, i t ’ s q u i t e important, and I think I tried to emphasise this point on the f i r s t d a y, t h a t a l l o f u s , w e n e e d t o r e s p e c t p r o c e s s e s because institutional processes, they are there to assist us, that’s another level for an example which must determine your extent of involvement and/or guiltiness for an example, you must establish that but on the basis of what is there, these are the implications and so on. So, m u c h a s I h e a r t h e C h a i r f r o m t h a t p o i n t o f v i e w, b u t w e 10 shouldn’t make it out as if it’s, you a n a l y t i c a l k i n d o f r e p o r t , n e c e s s a r i l y. k n o w, a general It is borne out of what is contained in the docket and/or dockets. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y o u s e e I h a v e a n i s s u e w i t h y o u r evidence that a report such as that is not about views. MR NHLEKO: O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: that says, when investigator something 20 I expect you to agree to this proposition has and an i n v e s t i g a t o r, been given they collect the including task of evidence, an IPID investigating they collect statements from witnesses and they’re supposed to see whether there is – there should be prosecution or they should make a recommendation for prosecution or for misconduct, disciplinary action. They take a view on those – o n t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h o s e s t a t e m e n t s t o s a y, w h a t d o I make of this evidence. Do I think this evidence reveals Page 132 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 that this person committed a crime that this person acted in breach of the rules of the employer? That’s the view they take and when they make a recommendation and the IPID Act says they must make recommendations, recommendation is the view they take. might s a y, given this evidence recommend that so and so s a y, given Somebody else might in Somebody else these should the that statements, be same disciplined. evidence recommend that this person should not be disciplined. 10 I I So that’s where I’m coming from and you’ll get a chance to say you agree or not but I expect you to agree that, I’m therefore saying, when it comes to Mr Sesoko and Mr McBride, it seems to me, and I want you to tell me if I’m l o o k i n g a t i t w r o n g l y, i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t t h e r e ’ s r o o m t o s a y, t h e y e x p r e s s e d t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e y w e r e p a r t y t o the final report they may have expressed views, some of those views or their approach m ight have differed from Khuba’s approach, alone, writing that other report and you didn’t agree with their approach in the second report you 20 didn’t agree, your view was that they should not have – they should have included certain paragraphs that they thought should be excluded but it’s the view they took and if it’s the view t hey took, must they be punished for the view they took. So, what do you say to that proposition? MR NHLEKO: H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, I w o u l d h a v e r e a l l y l o v e d Page 133 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 to agree and share your proposition but I don’t and I’ll probably also try and provide a simplified sort of example to try and illustrate this point. If you go out here in Johannesburg and you cross a red robot, now a traffic o f f i c e r w i l l s t o p y o u a n d w i l l t e l l y o u i f y o u a r e l u c k y, i t w i l l tell you this is a violation of crossing a red robot and in violation of the Ordinance Act of 1960 whatever the case is a n d s o o n r i g h t , t h a t ’ s n o t a v i e w, t h a t ’ s n o t a v i e w. So, y o u c a n ’ t t h e n s a y, t h i s t r a f f i c c o p e x p r e s s e d a v i e w w h i c h 10 is different from me as a driver or from me as an onlooker t o t h e n s a y, j a h e m i g h t h a v e c r o s s e d a r e d r o b o t a perhaps it’s possible that he did not and so on, no. So, I’m s a y i n g i n s t i t u t i o n s o f p o l i c i n g , i n p a r t i c u l a r, h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, t h e y f u n c t i o n a g a i n s t i n s t i t u t i o n a l r e g i m e s . case, your Criminal Procedure Act, your In this w h a t e v e r, whatever Act of course I’m not an expert when it comes to t h e s e t h i n g s C h a i r, I w a s , m e r e l y, a p o l i t i c a l h e a d o f t h e institution but it doesn’t make me a Policeman but they will tell you, and there are professionals that are trained in this 20 r e g a r d o k a y. S o , y o u c a n ’ t t h e n s a y, t h o s e p e o p l e , h a v i n g done so, again, in the background of our minds, having made this exam ple about a traffic cop and say that was an e x p r e s s i o n o f a v i e w, n o i t ’ s n o t a v i e w. In legal and c r i m i n a l m a t t e r s – a n d p e r h a p s a v i e w, I t h i n k , a t t h e l e v e l o f y o u r s e l f , h o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, a s a J u d g e , I m e a n y o u c a n Page 134 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 – you’ve been analysing the law and so on but these are Law Enforcement Agencies that’s all that they do. CHAIRPERSON: That’s very interesting that you say that b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r, a P o l i c e O f f i c e r w h o s e e s w h a t h e m a y think, she may think is a violation, a contravention of a t r a f f i c r e g u l a t i o n o r l a w m a y c o m e t o y o u a n d s a y, w h y y o u doing this, why you crossing the robot and if you give him or her certain answer he may decide, no I understand so therefore I’m not going to arrest you, I’m not going to 10 charge you. Yo u s a y p e o p l e a r e c h a s i n g m e , w a n t i n g t o shoot me, so that’s why I’m running away from them. If y o u g i v e t h e m a d i f f e r e n t a n s w e r t h e y m i g h t s a y, n o t h a t ’ s no valid reason you’ll have to face charges but I think let’s n o t t a k e i t f u r t h e r, I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u s a y a n d I t h i n k y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e I ’ m c o m i n g f r o m , M r H u l l e y. ADV HULLEY: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. N o w, y o u , i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y c o r r e c t l y, y o u d e c i d e d t o t a k e 20 disciplinary charges Werksm ans report, against to take Mr – arising disciplinary out – of the institute disciplinary charges against Mr McBride but not against anybody else, do I understand that correctly? MR NHLEKO: I took disciplinary McBride. ADV HULLEY: MR NHLEKO: And who else? A g a i n s t M r M c B r i d e s i r. Page 135 of 239 steps against Mr 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HULLEY: Anybody else other than Mr McBride? CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY: I think he said, nobody else, ja. Oh, sorry I thought he said -I’m sorry my apologies CHAIRPERSON: Ja others may have been suspended but it was not his decision, that is what he said. ADV HULLEY: Sure, what about General Dramat, General Sibiya, Captain Maluleka, any of those? MR NHLEKO: 10 No, the others would be outside of my a m b i t r e a l l y, o f c o u r s e , G e n e r a l D r a m a t , I h a d a l r e a d y indicated to that but with regards to the others below him it had to be somebody else, not me. ADV HULLEY: What I’m trying to understand, as far as this is concerned, you commissioned a report to investigate whether there were criminal and whether there was disciplinary misconduct on the part of a variety of people. Those people included Mr Sesoko, Mr Khuba, Captain Maluleke and General Sibiya all outside of your mandate or all outside of your scope of – as their employer outside of 20 y o u r a b i l i t y, y o u r p o w e r t o d i s c i p l i n e t h e m , c o r r e c t ? MR NHLEKO: Ye s , s o m e o f t h e i n d i v i d u a l s t h a t y o u mentioned. ADV HULLEY: MR NHLEKO: All or some? No, I’m saying individuals…[intervenes]. Page 136 of 239 some of the 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HULLEY: Which ones do you disagree with, I’ve named four? MR NHLEKO: Just run down that list again…[intervenes]. COMMISSIONER: No, I think Mr McBride was the one person he said he had power to suspend, General Dramat was another person that would have fallen within his power but by the time, I think he had already – he had already suspended him, the Werksmans report. ADV HULLEY: 10 O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I don’t think there was anybody else who fell within your power to suspend, is that so, among the people mentioned? MR NHLEKO: C h a i r. And I think we should also qualify this General Dramat, it was more to do with being implicated in the commission of crime. CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Ja, not in the report. Not the question of the two reports and so on. CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR NHLEKO: Ja. And I think we need to be able to draw the l i n e b e t w e e n t h e t w o , C h a i r, t h a n k s . ADV HULLEY: concerned, In f i r s t l y, the about terms the of reference rendition matter you and were that involved General Dramat, General Sibiya, Captain Maluleke and perhaps other individuals but Page 137 of 239 you identified two 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 s p e c i f i c a l l y. Yo u s p o k e a b o u t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l Sibiya. MR NHLEKO: ADV HULLEY: Ja. Yo u were also concerned about the circumstances which gave rise to the amendment of the IPID report and as far as that was concerned you were concerned, particularly about the fact that there were three people and that was Mr McBride, Mr Sibiya and Mr Khuba – sorry Mr Sesoko and Mr Khuba, correct? 10 MR NHLEKO: ADV HULLEY: MR NHLEKO: ADV HULLEY: MR NHLEKO: ADV HULLEY: That I was concerned about what? In relation to the two reports. Right. Correct? Correct. N o w, w h a t I ’ m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d i s h o w do you – on what basis you commissioned an investigation or an – into misconduct, l e t ’s focus specifically on misconduct into misconduct of people who did not fall under your power or authority to discipline? 20 MR NHLEKO: N o w, t h e r e ’ s a b s o l u t e l y n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h investigating and in the investigation, people who you do not have a direct supervision on are implicated. So, you w o u l d n ’ t s a y, t h e s e p e o p l e a r e i m p l i c a t e d b u t b e c a u s e I have nothing to do with direct supervision over them, so they should not be subjected to disciplinary hearing, that Page 138 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 would be incorrect. In fact, remember that, in the position that I was in, I was responsible in overall of the portfolio. So, if I felt that – not even felt because I remember the Chair and I, we were talking about feelings and views, so I must be careful in terms of what I say here. So, you have an investigation that then points out that in the division or t h e u n i t t h a t I a m s u p e r v i s i n g y o u h a v e a X , Y, Z k i n d o f person who is alleged to have committed the following w h a t e v e r. 10 N o w, y o u r e f e r t h a t m a t t e r t o t h e s u p e r v i s o r c o n c e r n e d a n d s a y, h e r e i s a r e p o r t t h a t s a y s t h e e m p l o y e e that you are supervising is implicated in the commission of an offence, a certain offence or m isconduct and so on and that person, manager and supervisor of that employee would then need to roll-out a process of dealing exactly w i t h t h a t i s s u e o k a y. S o – but there’s nothing wrong in i d e n t i f y i n g t h a t , y o u k n o w, t h e r e ’ s c e r t a i n – t h e r e ’ s , i n t h e report, or whatever that identifies people that you are not even supervising who are part of – who are implicated in the commission of an offence and so on, there’s absolutely 20 nothing wrong with that and there’s a difference, for your b e n e f i t , M r H u l l e y, t h e r e ’ s a d i f f e r e n c e b e t w e e n w h a t I ’ v e just said and I then saying I’m now issuing disciplinary charges against those employees that have been supervised by this other employee that falls under my s u p e r v i s i o n , y o u k n o w, t h e r e ’ s a d i f f e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e Page 139 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 t w o , t h a n k s v e r y m u c h C h a i r. ADV HULLEY: wasn’t Yo u s e e t h e d i f f i c u l t y i s , t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n exclusively into Mr Robert McBride’s alleged misconduct or Lieutenant General Dramat’s misconduct. Yo u w e r e i n v e s t i g a t i n g o r y o u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e m a d e i t clear that you were investigating several people in the DPCI which included Dramat, Lieutenant General Dramat, General Sibiya and others within the DPCI and in relation t o I P I D y o u w e r e i n v e s t i g a t i n g , n o t o n l y, M r M c B r i d e b u t 10 you wanted others, within the IPID to be investigated as well, would that be fair to say? MR NHLEKO: absolutely N o , n o I t h i n k y o u ’ r e w r o n g M r H u l l e y, wrong. We were not investigating certain individuals we were investigating a circumstance that said, how come you have this report and then you have this one, right. So – because the manner in which you craft it, it’s a s i f , y o u k n o w, I m u s t h a v e l o o k e d a t y o u C h a i r, a n d s a i d n o , I w a n t t o i n v e s t i g a t e y o u , n o i t d o e s n ’ t w o r k t h a t w a y. There is a particular circumstance and an occurrence that 20 took place and the question was, let us establish the facts around this. investigation So, it in then the process, begins to of course, of the reveal players in the occurrence of a particular circumstance and it’s on the basis of which, then, a particular institutional process has got to take place. So, I wouldn’t Page 140 of 239 like Mr Hulley to 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 u n d e r s t a n d t h i s t h i n g a s t r y i n g t o i n d i v i d u a l i s e i t a n d s a y, no there were certain individuals and specific people that were being investigated, there was an occurrence. ADV HULLEY: understood Yo u s e e t h e d i f f i c u l t y w i t h t h a t i s , i f I c o r r e c t l y, the investigation was specifically two-fold. It was an investigation into a criminal misconduct and it was an investigation to disciplinary misconduct, correct? MR NHLEKO: 10 Ye s , i t c o v e r e d b o t h t h e a n g l e s . ADV HULLEY: And it related to – you wanted to know if there were any of the – any people from IPID who were implicated or any people from IPID who may have been guilty of the criminal or the disciplinary misconduct. CHAIRPERSON: D o n ’ t f o r g e t h e r e y o u r a n s w e r. I just want to say we are at twenty-five past two, okay alright. ADV HULLEY: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, give your answer Mr Nhleko. MR NHLEKO: Can you reformulate that question, no not reformulate it…[intervenes]. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Repeat it, he’s asking you to repeat the question. ADV HULLEY: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. Let’s consider the terms of reference…[intervenes]. MR NHLEKO: No, just ask Hulley…[intervenes]. Page 141 of 239 the question, Mr 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Might I mention…[intervenes]. There’s a question that you posed, that’s what I’m interested in. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY: My intervention disturbed…[intervenes]. T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: ADV HULLEY: Ja. The purpose of the investigation insofar as I P I D w a s c o n c e r n e d , y o u w a n t e d t o k n o w, s p e c i f i c a l l y, w h a t were the circumstances which gave rise to a changing of 10 the report, on the first report to the second report and you were specifically concerned with whether there – who were the individuals that may have been involved in doing so and the circumstances which gave rise to the changes and who are the individuals, within IPID that may be guilty of criminal or disciplinary misconduct, is that right? MR NHLEKO: Ye s , t h a t ’ s c o r r e c t . ADV HULLEY: N o w, I w o u l d h a v e b e e n – g i v e n t h e attitude or the testimony that you’ve given here today it would have – and your acknowledgement that you had no 20 power over anybody other than Lieutenant General Dramat or Mr McBride, I would have expected that the investigation would have misconduct been or into whether whether Mr Lieutenant McBride committed General Dramat committed misconduct. MR NHLEKO: M r H u l l e y, I ’ v e r e s p o n d e d t o t h a t q u e s t i o n Page 142 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 s i r. I ’ v e n e e d t o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MR NHLEKO: Ye s , I t h i n k y o u h a v e . Ye s , I m a d e e x a m p l e s C h a i r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: But I think, maybe Mr Hulley wants to – you are suggesting and you want to know whether he has got any comment to your suggestion? ADV HULLEY: obviously – Indeed, it’s a proposition that I would and what you must appreciate sir is that…[intervenes]. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Because his answer was, there’s a situation that had arisen and it was necessary to establish what happened, how the situation came about, who, if anybody was – had committed misconduct or an offence and it so happened that in the course of that investigation, obviously persons who had, had a role to play would be asked questions. I think that is what he said ja, I’m putting it in my own way but he – Mr Hulley is suggesting that he would have expected you to confine the investigation to the persons 20 who fell within your authority in terms of disciplining, namely Mr McBride and General Dramat, you m a y b e a b l e t o s a y, I d i d n ’ t s e e i t t h a t w a y o r I t h o u g h t i t ’ s necessary to look at everybody that may have had a role to p l a y, d o y o u w a n t t o s a y a n y t h i n g ? MR NHLEKO: No, I disagree with his proposition. CHAIRPERSON: His suggestion. Page 143 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: Ye s , I a c t u a l l y d o a n d , i n f a c t , e v e n e a r l i e r on I did allude to the mere fact around the issues of o v e r s i g h t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV HULLEY: Thank you Mr Chair and on what basis, I’m trying to understand this, on what basis, given that you understand, you appreciate that you have not command over or direct command or operational command over Mr Khuba, on what basis, do you phone him and tell him, 10 instruct him, in fact to cooperate with Werksmans investigation? MR NHLEKO: investigation No, and he on the needed basis to that there cooperate was with an the investigation. ADV HULLEY: No, I understand that in the same way that I can phone – one can phone up anybody else but the question is, on what authority did you do so? 20 MR NHLEKO: On the basis of the overall responsibility that mandated I had as by the constitution and the oversight responsibility from the department. ADV HULLEY: S i r y o u r e a r l i e r t e s t i m o n y w a s , y e s t e r d a y, your testimony was you don’t phone people that are lower down on the rung, you phone the person that’s at the head of that institution. Now in the case of IPID that was Mr Kgamanyane when Mr McBride was on suspension. Page 144 of 239 So, 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 what I’m asking you is, if you wanted an instruction to be given to Mr Khuba, why didn’t you phone Mr Kgamanyane? MR NHLEKO: No, you’re getting it wrong at the time when I called Mr Khuba Mr Kgamanyane was not on the scene, if my recollection – if I’m correct, I mean he was not there…[intervenes]. ADV HULLEY: MR NHLEKO: Who was the head? It was Mr McBride…[intervenes]. ADV HULLEY: 10 So why didn’t you phone Mr McBride? CHAIRPERSON: Ja I think that’s my recollection as well, that’s my recollection as well that it was Mr McBride. MR NHLEKO: Ye s , i t w a s M r M c B r i d e w h o h i m s e l f w a s also implicated in the very same issue of the investigation. ADV HULLEY: That’s the point and the point is t hat you bypassed Mr McBride and went straight to Mr Khuba and – now there could only be one reason why you could have gone directly to Mr Khuba, to instruct him to cooperate with the investigation. MR NHLEKO: 20 Right. ADV HULLEY SC: Because you suspected that Mr McBride was going to have some wrongdoing? Correct? CHAIRPERSON: No I am sorry just repeat the question. ADV HULLEY SC: There is only one reason why you would have bypassed Mr McBride and gone straight to Mr Khuba was because you suspected that Mr McBride was guilty of Page 145 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 some wrongdoing. MR NHLEKO: No. CHAIRPERSON: Mr McBride – he suspected that Mr McBride had done something wrong? ADV HULLEY SC: That Mr McBride was the one that was g u i l t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR NHLEKO: thing. 10 Guilt But Mr Hulley you would appreciate this is never suspected. through processes. Guilt is established So I cannot – I cannot look at you or any other human individual and suspect guilt. w o r k s t h a t w a y. It never However you could be a person that is implicated in the wrongdoing and I think he – those are the added kind of terms that are used but they use about – the usage of the concept of suspected guilt defeats the whole notion of why you need to have institutional and or legal processes that must then establish whether you are guilty a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t a n d w h e t h e r y o u a r e n o t g u i l t y, t h a t i s i t . That is my … 20 ADV HULLEY SC: I accept that. M R N H L E K O : U n d e r s t a n d i n g o f g e n e r a l p r a c t i c e b a s i c a l l y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : I a c c e p t t h a t . Yo u h a v e o b v i o u s l y g o t t o establish it but one could have a suspicion nothing wrong with having a suspicion. Yo u r s u s p i c i o n c o u l d b e b a s e d o n nothing and of course your suspicion could be based upon Page 146 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 something. MR NHLEKO: Mr Hulley I think let us agree that we disagree. A D V H U L L E Y S C : O k a y. L e t u s m o v e o n . MR NHLEKO: I mean for me as I say I mean the – you cannot suspect guilt. Yo u k n o w. Wrongdoing yes you can suspect but not guilt. ADV HULLEY SC: Now the second question is, if you – you knew that Mr Khuba had – had been – you had been told 10 that Mr Khuba was not cooperating. you would also be told that I would imagine that Mr McBride was not cooperating. ADV MOKHARI SC: Chair if Mr Hulley can indicate when is he going to finish because you have given him time he is just continuing and eating into the re-examination. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I w a s a l s o l o o k i n g w h e t h e r t h a t w a s going to be the last question. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Or what. We are at twenty-five to three. I 20 a m n o t – I a m n o t s a y i n g s t o p a b r u p t l y. A D V H U L L E Y S C : A b s o l u t e l y. CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation? A D V H U L L E Y S C : M r C h a i r i f y o u w o u l d b e a r w i t h m e . Ye s I think I am down to two – basically two propositions and then I want to sum it all up. Page 147 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: But is that five minutes or how much is that? ADV HULLEY SC: I do not think it is… C H A I R P E R S O N : Te n m i n u t e s ? ADV HULLEY SC: I think it is depending on the answers I would think that it is about fifteen/twenty minutes. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t w e h a v e g o t t o c o m e t o s o m e conclusion. ADV HULLEY SC: 10 A b s o l u t e l y M r C h a i r. T h e d i ff i c u l t y a s I said at the outset is that I am making an assessment in my head but then my assessment is based upon a response that would be relatively short. CHAIRPERSON: We l l w e – w e – w e h a v e g o t t o – w e h a v e got to come to some conclusion. A D V H U L L E Y S C : A b s o l u t e l y. CHAIRPERSON: I do not want to say abruptly stop. We l l can you try and see if you can wrap up in ten minutes? ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. If I could ask you S i r t o t u r n w i t h m e t o y o u r f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t – s o r r y y o u r 20 a ff i d a v i t w h i c h i s i n B u n d l e L E A 1 . CHAIRPERSON: And I think I can say the ten minutes is the last ten minutes. ADV HULLEY SC: So CHAIRPERSON: So I just want to make sure that you know that. That will be the last ten minutes. Page 148 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. That is Bundle LEA1 Sir have you got it? CHAIRPERSON: Well he – ja I think you can ahead and ask the question he will decide if he needs it. to answer without looking at it he will. If he is able I think that is his approach. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. I n y o u r a ff i d a v i t you deal with the Werksmans Report at some length and if I could refer you to the relevant page. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Remember that you might not need to refer if you know what is in that page you can just put the question. He might… A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: He might be able to answer because you probably know what the question is you want to put. So… A D V H U L L E Y S C : We l l m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g a r i s i n g o u t o f t h e a ff i d a v i t was that you had pursuant to obtaining the Werksmans Report you had decided to institute disciplinary proceedings … 20 CHAIRPERSON: And what was the verb – he – it says: He decided to what? ADV HULLEY SC: Institute disciplinary proceedings against the implicated individuals. C H A I R P E R S O N : I n d i v i d u a l s o k a y. A l r i g h t . M r N h l e k o . MR NHLEKO: So what is it that needs to be known about Page 149 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 that Chair? C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a y s a n d I a m p a r a p h r a s i n g . Yo u h a v e said that after the Werksmans Report had been presented to you the only person that you decided to take disciplinary action against and here I am talking about suspension was Mr McBride. B u t h e i s s a y i n g i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u s a i d y o u decided to take disciplinary action against the implicated individuals plural. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s C h a i r b u t t h e p o i n t b e i n g . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: That the investigation report by Werksmans makes reference to the alleged sort of areas of misconduct by the individuals that are concerned. and I agreed with it. So I agreed with it So this particular paragraph that he makes reference to it is precisely because I agree with the original recommendation that says, disciplinary action must be taken against the following individuals. O k a y. Now and I think I have explained earlier on the whole question of the distinction between disciplinary steps as a supervisor that 20 you take against an employee that reports to you. We against a situation where that particular employee takes disciplinary steps against people that report under him. That is it. ADV HULLEY SC: T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. And after the matter went to the Constitutional Court this is now Mr Page 150 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 McBride instituted proceedings in the Constitutional Court to set aside his suspension after you had suspended him and he did so on the basis that you had no power to do so. Is that correct? MR NHLEKO: Yo u f o l l o w m e C h a i r. I do think that we are meant to careful as to how we talk to issues of judgments. We are sitting in front of the Deputy Chief Justice here who is also part of that very same matter and is part of that very same 10 o r d e r. So Mr Hulley you would know that the Constitutional Court did not set aside his suspension and as a matter of fact there is no – in all the courts that Mr McBride went to there was never a [indistinct 01:10:40] on the issue of his suspension. Now the Constitutional Court made the following order because I think we need to clarify this point. CHAIRPERSON: But I do not think you need to read I think your point is it pronounced… MR NHLEKO: 6(3) and other provisions are being for lack of a better word are being shifted as aside and in their 20 place in particular Section 6 of the IPID Act Section 17 DA of the South African Policy Act must be read in there. Right? Minister And then said on the issue – on the issue of the of Police taking disciplinary steps that matter Parliament needed to deal with it within thirty days and it was for Parliament to then decide Page 151 of 239 whether within the 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 prescribed thirty days by the Constitutional Court whether it is still both Parliament and the Minister of Police whether they still wanted to pursue disciplinary charges against Mr McBride. So Mr Hulley in suspension that is set aside? that order where is the Because the only thing that happened by the way I will tell you what happened. The only thing that happened you are then an institution of state, a democratic state that did not follow this order to the letter and that is Parliament. 10 It elected not to do anything. I mean it is either you take a position that says, yes you agree or disagree but you cannot just be mum when it comes to matters of an order such as this. Now – and I think that is where fundamentally also my problem was and even for that matter c o n c e p t u a l l y, I problem with a situation such as that. o k a y. seriously have a But it happened Now the consequence of which was that because the prescribed thirty day period by the Constitutional Court lapsed. There was nothing in law or in any other matter you can think of that then prevented Mr McBride reporting for 20 duty and going back to work. Right. So there was no setting aside of suspension in law and reinstatement as it has been somewhat alleged [indistinct 01:13:31] [talking over one another] ADV HULLEY SC: Mr Chair if I can just be fair because that was not the question I asked. Page 152 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: And I have a ten minute response to a question and my question was whether Mr McBride had instituted proceedings to set – to review and set aside his suspension. MR NHLEKO: No. ADV HULLEY SC: I got told about the Constitutional Court a n d w h a t e v e r. MR 10 NHLEKO: Honourable Chair I disagree with this because he in the formulation Mr Hulley pointed directly to the question of the Constitutional Court having set aside his suspension. CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay I… MR NHLEKO: And that is the point I was clarifying. CHAIRPERSON: I cannot say I remember whether it was that or it was simply saying Mr McBride got an application. ADV HULLEY SC: Which I said and that ultimately went to the Constitutional Court. CHAIRPERSON: But I do not know if it – I do not know how 20 much it matters in terms of what you have in mind Mr H u l l e y. I f i t i s i m p o r t a n t … A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n u s e i t t o w r a p u p . ADV HULLEY SC: The point is as you have already pointed out what the Constitutional Court had ultimately declared Page 153 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 was that National Assembly was the body that was responsible to determine whether Mr McBride could not be suspended. MR NHLEKO: Hm. ADV HULLEY SC: Now it is not your fault of course because at the time that the – that this – at the time it indicated the IPID Act indicated that you did have the power to suspend him. MR NHLEKO: 10 No the IPID Act did not indicate. It said the M i n i s t e r o f P o l i c e a s t h e f o l l o w i n g w h a t e v e r. S o i t w a s v e r y p o i n t e d i t i s n o t a n i n d i c a t i o n M r H u l l e y. CHAIRPERSON: The powers. MR NHLEKO: The powers yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: But then that was done away with by the Constitutional Court? M R N H L E K O : Ye s . ADV HULLEY SC: 20 The Constitutional Court said that those provisions were unconstitutional? MR NHLEKO: Right. ADV HULLEY SC: Which meant that you know that whatever powers you might have had or believed you had y o u n o l o n g h a d a n d y e t y o u c o n t i n u e d t o p u r s u e t h e m a t t e r. Not only did you approach the National Assembly having Page 154 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 been told by the Constitutional Court that you actually did not have those powers. Not only did you approach the National Assembly to try and advance your case but when – when the thirty day period lapsed and Mr McBride returned you suspended him again. Yo u s a i d t o – y o u w r o t e a l e t t e r saying that the National Assembly must decide where Mr McBride must go to, Correct? MR NHLEKO: I do not believe this. Now… C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w i l l b e t h e l a s t q u e s t i o n M r H u l l e y. 10 MR NHLEKO: Ye s . Just two things about what Mr Hulley has just said. CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k i n e ff e c t h e i s s a y i n g i s i t n o t t r u e that after Mr McBride had returned to work you suspended him again? M R N H L E K O : Ye s b u t C h a i r h e s t a r t e d s o m e w h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no he started somewhere. MR NHLEKO: He then says that he finds almost something wrong with the fact that I approached Parliament. 20 approaching Parliament Constitutional Court o r d e r. in compliance And all I was I was with saying the to Parliament, Parliament comply with the Constitutional Court t h i s i s a n o r d e r. o r d e r, s i m p l e . If an order is issued we all follow the So you cannot subject for an example an order to any other set of emotions whether they are political or something or otherwise, it is an order so we had to Page 155 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 comply with that. Because it said Parliament and Minister of Police must then decide whether they still wanted to pursue this. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: So in his formulation Mr Hulley that is. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR NHLEKO: He – he insinuates that there was something wrong with me doing that by approaching Parliament which is incorrect. 10 CHAIRPERSON: I think I understand your point. M R N H L E K O : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I do want to bring this to an end so Mr Mokhari can re-examine. I did indicate to Mr Hulley that that was to be the last question. And then I think I gave him more than the ten minutes that I said I was going to be the last ten minutes. ADV HULLEY SC: Ye s M r C h a i r. I am quite happy of course on your instruction Mr Chair to conclude it at this point. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: Of course, I did want to afford the witness an opportunity to deal with that. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV HULLEY SC: And of course the opportunity because it i s i n t h e a ff i d a v i t t h a t h e h a s d e a l t w i t h a n d i t i s p a r t o f t h e Page 156 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 – CHAIRPERSON: No that – that… ADV HULLEY SC: It is part of the statements that he has dealt with. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No, no that is fine. We h a v e g o t t o end here. What is the last point you want to say Mr Nhleko? MR NHLEKO: The last point is in relation to Mr Hulley’s assertion that not only did I approach Parliament and so that even after he returned I suspended him. 10 That is factually incorrect. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: Absolutely incorrect. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: Parliament. Indeed, I did then write to the speaker of And said look in the light of all these issues and the happenings in the manner in which they have happened. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR 20 NHLEKO: They must then as the institution of Parliament decide as to how they wanted to deal that issue. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R N H L E K O : O k a y. I h a d d o n e a l m o s t … CHAIRPERSON: The issue of suspension? MR NHLEKO: No – yes the issue of suspension. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 157 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: Now I had done almost everything in my power to approach them and said to them this is what the Constitutional Court says. Let us comply with it. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: saying they Now – and by so saying Chair I was not should. Does Parliament agree with my position? CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR NHLEKO: 10 I was saying they have got to pronounce – pronounce whether you want to do this thing or not do it. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: Yo u k n o w b e t w e e n t h e t w o a n d I t h i n k e v e n the court itself would have then been satisfied that the order was complied with. But you cannot just leave it hanging out there and so on. And that is my problem you k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Okay alright. ADV HULLEY SC: Mr Chair just to be fair to the witness and of course Mr Mokhari can deal with it. 20 The relevant passage and I am referring to is a press statement issued by the witness. It appears in Bundle LEA8 and it is at pages 3639 to 3641. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. ADV HULLEY SC: So… CHAIRPERSON: That is fine. Page 158 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV HULLEY SC: It is dealt with over there. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V H U L L E Y S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokhari re-examination. ADV MOKHARI SC: t h e o p p o r t u n i t y. Thank you very much Chairperson for I just want to ask Mr Nhleko just a few questions. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MOKHARI SC: Purely for clarification. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MOKHARI SC: It is not necessarily a re-examination. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . ADV MOKHARI SC: Mr Nhleko when McBride brought an application in the High Court to declare Section 6(6) read with Section 6(3) of the IPID Act unconstitutional and those were the sections which give you the power to suspend him and also to institute disciplinary proceedings against the Executive Director of the IPID you opposed that application am I correct? 20 M R N H L E K O : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t S i r. A D V M O K H A R I S C : A n d y o u f i l e d a n a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s t h a t i s a b s o l u t e l y c o r r e c t . ADV MOKHARI SC: And in that application McBride did make allegations of ulterior motive and as well as that you were suspending him for – or you are malicious or all those Page 159 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 type of things. A n d y o u f i l e d a n a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t a n d responding to those allegations in detail, do you remember that? M R N H L E K O : Ye s I d o r e m e m b e r S i r. ADV MOKHARI SC: And what happened to those allegations in court? MR NHLEKO: He withdrew them. ADV MOKHARI SC: I did not hear the answer just speak up. 10 MR NHLEKO: I am saying he withdrew those allegations of ulterior motives and I think it was ulterior motives and something else I cannot remember but… ADV MOKHARI SC: Ye s t h a t i s f i n e I j u s t w a n t e d t o k n o w then what happened to them that is all. MR NHLEKO: No he withdrew those – yes. ADV MOKHARI SC: Ye s t h a t i s r i g h t , o k a y, a l r i g h t . then the High Court delivered a very lengthy judgment. And In essence it declared Section 6(6) read with Section 6(3) of the IPID Act unconstitutional and on the basis of that it then 20 found that you had no power to suspend McBride and similarly you will have no power to institute disciplinary proceedings against him because those provisions of the law were not consistent with the independence of IPID which ought to be insulated in terms of the constitution. MR NHLEKO: Right. Page 160 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV MOKHARI SC: Did the court make any finding against you of ulterior motive? MR NHLEKO: No there was no such a finding. ADV MOKHARI SC: Now in respect of the suspension I know that you are not a lawyer but we have a judgment here and the Chairperson would be able to read it. The High Court did set aside the suspension of McBride but I want you to comment suspension? 10 on what did the court say about his Did it say that McBride now is free to go back to his position as Executive Director or did it say something else? MR NHLEKO: pronounced I upon think by it the constitutional challenge. – it High – the Court matter but yes was pending a T h e e ff e c t o f w h i c h w a s t h a t t h e suspension itself was not set aside but I think I am subject to correction in case I am missing something here but that is my recollection. ADV MOKHARI SC: Ye s o f c o u r s e a n d I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t you do not have the judgment with you and I do not want us 20 to waste time on that. M R N H L E K O : Ye s . ADV MOKHARI SC: Chairperson the… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV MOKHARI SC: The paragraph of the judgment will be paragraph 77(6) of the judgment. Paragraph 77(6) of the Page 161 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 High Court Judgment. So all what the High Court said was that although it has set aside McBride’s suspension that McBride must remain on suspension until such time that Parliament has looked into the m a t t e r. If indeed the suspension was such of magnitude that McBride ought to return to work what is it that the court considered that although McBride succeeded in his challenge he must still remain on suspension. MR NHLEKO: No I am – I did not hear you Mr Mokhari. 10 CHAIRPERSON: The question is… MR NHLEKO: [Mumbling] CHAIRPERSON: The question is since the court that is the High Court now said that Mr McBride must not return to w o r k u n t i l P a r l i a m e n t h a d d e a l t w i t h t h e m a t t e r. MR NHLEKO: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: What are the considerations that led the court to saying that? That was the question. ADV MOKHARI SC: Ye s w h y w i l l a c o u r t – t h e [ i n d i s t i n c t 01:27:10] of the court do such a thing that is the question? 20 CHAIRPERSON: Of course the answer would be in the judgment I would imagine and I think Mr Mokhari you can feel… ADV MOKHARI SC: Ye s I mean issues of like the allegations I mean what was the nature of the allegations – all those type of things? That is… Page 162 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: Well I want to say Mr Mokhari I want to say anything that is in the judgment you are free to just draw my attention to what the court said even if he does not d e a l w i t h i t . I f t h a t i s w h a t y o u w a n t t o k n o w. ADV MOKHARI SC: In fact I will… CHAIRPERSON: Ta k i n g into account you mention [indistinct 01:27:49]. ADV MOKHARI SC: Ye s , y e s . Chairperson from the High Court judgment paragraph 60, paragraph 67, 68 and 77 in 10 particular 77.6. So 60, 67 will then deal with considerations that the court took into account but essentially then the court was alive to the fact that the Minister pointed out to the nature of the allegations against him, the seriousness and that McBride himself said that I am prepared to face the disciplinary proceedings. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MOKHARI SC: So the issues of the charges that there was no issue of the charges being frivolous or baseless then that is what I was trying to put to you Mr Nhleko. 20 M R N H L E K O : O k a y. A D V M O K H A R I S C : Ye s . MR NHLEKO: It is because the court had also recognised that the allegations were of a serious nature. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV MOKHARI SC: N o w, s o i n t e r m s o f o u r l e g a l s y s t e m Page 163 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 when the High Court set aside or declare a provision of statute and constitutional it does not become e ff e c t i v e i m m e d i a t e l y. T h e C o n s t i t u t i o n a l C o u r t m u s t h a v e a f i n a l s a y and this matter of McBride was then taken to the High Court – to the Constitutional Court for confirmation. Again, I am not – going to deal with the Constitutional with the Constitutional Court judgment because it is there and then the Chairperson will be able to read it. But then what was before the Constitutional Court would be the material that 10 was before the High Court. The paragraph that I would like to take you to but again because of time I will read it for you. It is paragraph 12 and this was a judgment delivered by – it was written by the late Honourable Bosielo AJ. In paragraph 12 it says: “Faced with the glaring discrepancies in the two reports the Minister suspected serious tampering. As a result the commission – Sorry – as a result he commissioned Werksmans Attorneys to investigate the two reports relying on the January Report and 20 the investigation by Werksmans the Minister invoked his powers in terms of Section 6(6) of the IPID Act, the Public Service Act and Chapter 7 of the SMS Handbook and placed Mr McBride on precautionary suspension on 24 March 2015 acting on the strength of Section 6(6)A of the IPID Act Page 164 of 239 read with the 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 provisions governing disciplinary proceedings under the Public Service Act and the IPID Regulations the Minister served Mr McBride with a notice to attend t h e d i s c i p l i n a r y e n q u i r y. ” T h e o r d e r i n p a r a g r a p h 4 i s s u sp e n d e d f o r 3 0 -d a y s i n o rd e r f o r t h e N a t i o n a l A s s e m b l e a n d t h e M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e , i f t h e y so c h o o se , to e x e r ci s e their powers in terms of the p r o vi si o n s re f e rr e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h 3 . 1 a b o v e . N o w r e m e m b e r, t h e p r o p o si t i o n t h a t w a s p u t t o y o u b y 10 M r H u l l e y b e ca u s e h e w a s s a yi n g t o y o u : “ D e sp i t e t h a t t h e c o m m e r ci a l c o u rt h a s s e t a si d e t h e s u s p e n si o n , you st i l l f o r ce d ahead and went to p a rl i a m e n t . . . ” A n d y o u r a n s w e r w a s t h a t y o u a re a ct i n g i n t e r m s o f t h e c o n st i t u t i o n a l c o u rt order but you could not refer to a s p e ci f i c p a r a g r a p h o f i t . MR NHLEKO: Alright. ADV MOKHARI SC: And so this is the paragraph that a ct u a l l y t h e n w o u l d h a v e p ro m p t e d y o u t o g o t o p a r l i a m e n t 20 b e ca u s e y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t t h e c o n co u rt d i d w h a t . . . a s a l a st , w e c a l l i t a r e a d -i n . M R N H L E K O : Ye s. ADV MOKHARI SC: C o n c e s si o n 6 . 3 a r e n o l o n g e r t h e r e . T h e y ca n n o t b e u s e d b u t y o u c a n l e a v e a va c u u m , t h a t i s w h a t t h e c o n co u rt s a y s. A n d t h e n h e s a y s: Page 165 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 “ W h a t c a n w e d o i n t h e m e a n t i m e w a s, f o r g i vi n g t h e p a rl i a m e n t a n o p p o rt u n i t y t o re ct i f y t h e l e g i sl a t i o n ”. He says that: “ We w i l l n o w r e a d i n S e ct i o n 1 7 ( d ) ( a ). A m I c o rr e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, t h a t i s v e r y co r r e ct . A D V M O K H A R I S C : A n d s o , t h e n y o u s a y t h a t y o u a ct e d i n t e r m s o f t h a t se ct i o n a n d a g a i n t h e C h a i rp e r s o n w i l l b e a b l e t o r e a d S e ct i o n 1 7 ( d )( a ) a n d s e e f o r h i m s e l f t h a t S e ct i o n 1 7 ( d )( c ) o f t h e P o l i c e S e r vi c e A ct , i t a ct u a l l y r e q u i r e s a j o i n t 10 a ct i o n . T h a t i s n o w t h e m i n i st e r a n d p a r l i a m e n t , m u st t o g e t h e r a ct then to p r o c e s s e s. t ri g g e r either a s u s p e n si o n I t c a n n o t b e yo u a l o n e . or additional S o t h a t i s w h a t re a l l y t h e n i t i s s a yi n g b u t t h e n . . . I m e a n , a m I c o rr e ct ? M R N H L E K O : T h a t i s ve r y c o r r e ct si r. ADV MOKHARI SC: S o y o u a re b a si c a l l y i n y o u r r e s p o n s e t o M r H u l l e y, y o u a r e b a s i ca l l y s a y i n g t o h i m : m y p a rt . “I h a v e d o n e I h a v e g o n e t o p a rl i a m e n t b e c a u se I w a n t e d t o b e c o m p l yi n g w i t h t h e c o n c o u rt o r d e r ” 20 Paragraph 5 which says that: “ Mi n i st e r o f P a rl i a m e n t , y o u h a v e 3 0 - d a y s. Make a d e ci si o n . A re y o u g o i n g t o c h a r g e t h i s m a n o r n o t ? ” And you sa y y o u have done y o u r p a rt . What p a rl i a m e n t d o ? D i d p a rl i a m e n t d o i t s o w n p a rt ? M R N H L E K O : N o , c e rt a i n l y i t d i d n o t i n t h i s . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] Page 166 of 239 did 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV MOKHARI SC: Chairperson what N o w t h e q u e s t i o n i s. would have Can you tell the happened to M cB ri d e ’s s u s p e n si o n h a d p a rl i a m e n t d i d . . . h a d p a rl i a m e n t d o n e i t s p a rt ? MR NHLEKO: L o o k, t h a t s u s p e n si o n . . . o f c o u r s e , i f w e a ct e d i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e c o n st i t u t i o n a l c o u rt o rd e r. The c o n st i t u t i o n a l c o u rt o r d e r, yo u k n o w, g a v e u s a p e ri o d o f a b o u t 3 0 -d a y s t o , y o u k n o w, t h e p a rl i a m e n t a n d t h e M i n i st e r o f P o l i c e , yo u k n o w, m y s e l f a t t h e t i m e w h e n I o c c u p i e d t h e 10 p o si t i o n . T h a t s u s p e n si o n w o u l d h a v e st a y e d o n b u t t h e d e c i si o n p e r h a p s w h e r e p a r l i a m e n t w o u l d i n t e r v e n e , t h e q u e st i o n o f p r o c e s si n g t h e i s s u e s o f d i s ci p l i n e , o k a y. N o w, s u p p o s e t h e d e ci si o n b y p a rl i a m e n t w o u l d h a v e been: “Ye s, l e t u s g o a h e a d a n d , y o u k n o w, t h e s e a r e t h e c h a r g e s a n d s o o n a n d l e t u s d e a l w i t h t h e m ”. S o s u sp e n si o n w o u l d h a v e g o n e o n b e y o n d t h a t 3 0 - d a y p e ri o d as per the c o n st i t u t i o n a l c o u rt . In f a ct , the c o n st i t u t i o n a l co u rt o rd e r, t h e 3 0 - d a y p e ri o d w a s n o t a b o u t 20 s u s p e n si o n . I t w a s a b o u t r e c t i f yi n g a n d d e a l w i t h t h e p ro c e d u ra l i s s u e s w i t h i n t h e 3 0 - d a y p e ri o d a n d s e e w h e t h e r y o u w a n t t o p r o c e e d o r n o t p r o c e e d w i t h t h e d i s ci p l i n a r y a ct i o n a g a i n st M r M c B ri d e . ADV MOKHARI SC: Now thank you very much. Page 167 of 239 N o w, l e t u s 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 m o v e t o D ra m a t b e c a u s e i t w a s a l s o s o m e t h i n g w h i c h c a m e u p d u ri n g yo u r t e st i m o n y. And Mr Hulley did ask you about y o u r s u s p e n s i o n o f L i e u t e n a n t G e n e ra l D r a m a t . We k n o w t h a t t h e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] f o u n d a t i o n ch a l l e n g e d t h a t s u s p e n si o n o f M c B ri d e b y yo u r s e l f i n t h e h i g h c o u rt a n d t h e r e w a s a j u d g m e n t b y P ri n sl o o J. He also opposed that a p p l i ca t i o n . A m I c o r r e ct ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s, t h a t i s c o rr e ct s i r. ADV MOKHARI SC: 10 A n d P ri n sl o o J c a m e w i t h a j u d g m e n t . S o t h e o n l y t h i n g t h a t I w a n t t o a s k yo u i n r e s p e ct o f t h a t j u d g m e n t , y o u k n o w, t h a t o p p o rt u n i t y t o a l s o . . . [ i n d i s t i n ct ] a t s o m e st a g e . D i d P ri n sl o o m a ke a n y f i n d i n g t h a t y o u h a v e a ct e d w i t h u l t e ri o r m o t i ve o r m a l i c e w h e n y o u su s p e n d e d M r M c B ri d e ? I m e a n , s o r r y. L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l D r a m a t . MR NHLEKO: No, there was not such a finding. ADV MOKHARI SC: interpretation. A g a i n , i t w a s a si m p l e q u e st i o n o f Yo u r i n t e rp r e t a t i o n o f t h e p r o vi si o n s o f t h e S o u t h A f ri ca n P o l i c e S e r vi c e a s f a r a s t h e p o w e r s o f t h e m i n i st e r, t h a t i s t o s u s p e n d t h e h e a d o f t h e H AW K S ? 20 MR NHLEKO: Ye s. Honourable Chair? A n d m a y I a l s o j u st st a t e t h a t y o u r B e c a u s e t h i s a s s e rt i o n h a s b e e n m a d e o v e r a n d o v e r a g a i n t h a t I a ct e d u n l a w f u l l y w h i c h i s a v e r y st ro n g st a t e m e n t b y a n y b o d y t o s a y. I w a s a ct i n g l a w f u l l y . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : I n su s p e n d i n g G e n e r a l D r a m a t ? Page 168 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 M R N H L E K O : J a , b u t a l s o M r M c B ri d e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: Ja. N o w b e c a u s e a ct i n g u n l a w f u l l y w o u l d a ct u a l l y m e a n y o u w e r e a ct e d e i t h e r a g a i n st t h e p r o vi si o n s o f t h e l a w o r o u t s i d e o f t h e l a w. I t h i n k t h a t i s w h a t i t w o u l d mean. CHAIRPERSON: We l l , a ct i n g unlawfully may mean, d e p e n d i n g o n t h e ci r c u m st a n c e s, i t m e a n s yo u r a ct i o n s w e r e i n b r e a c h o f t h e l a w. 10 M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e r e a r e c i r c u m st a n c e s w h e r e y o u m a y a ct u n l a w f u l l y b u t g e n u i n e l y, b e l i e vi n g t h a t y o u a r e e n t i t l e d t o a ct i n a c e rt a i n w a y e v e n s o m e t i m e s w i t h t h e b e n e f i t o f s e n i o r c o u n s e l ’s a d vi c e . [ l a u g h s] A D V M O K H A R I S C : [ l a u g h s] M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u g o t o s e n i o r co u n s e l a n d h e s a y s. . . y o u sa y, “I f I d o t h i s, a m I w i t h i n t h e l a w ? ” MR NHLEKO: Right. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t g i v e s y o u a n o p i n i o n a n d s a y s yo u w i l l b e w i t h i n y o u r ri g h t , yo u w i l l b e w i t h i n t h e l a w i f y o u d o t h i s a n d h e c h a r g e s y o u a n a rm a n d a l e g . Yo u g o a n d d o i t . Yo u f e e l co n f i d e n t . And then you are challenged. s a y s, “ N o , y o u h a v e a ct e d u n l a w f u l l y ”. M R N H L E K O : Ye s, y e s. Page 169 of 239 T h e c o u rt 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: S o s o m e t i m e s y o u a re g e n u i n e . It does n o t m e a n t h a t y o u a r e m a l i ci o u s b u t i t i s u n l a w f u l . But s o m e t i m e s i t m i g h t b e a si t u a t i o n w h e r e y o u w e r e m a l i ci o u s or you... and so on. MR NHLEKO: N o , t h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h C h a i r f o r t h e education. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . [ l a u g h s] M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] M R N H L E K O : T h e p o i n t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 10 CHAIRPERSON: U n f o rt u n a t e l y, i f h e w a s g i vi n g t h e a d vi c e y o u ca n a rg u e . a n d n o t c h a r g e y o u a n yt h i n g . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] MR NHLEKO: [ l a u g h s] m a k e , n e v e rt h e l e s s. Ye s, s o . But the point I wanted to I a m s o rr y M r M o k h a r i , i f I . .. I m u st h a ve . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V M O K H A R I S C : T h a t i s f i n e . Yo u ca n p ro c e e d . MR NHLEKO: ...intervened. But the point I wanted to make i s t h a t i n a l l t h e s e c o u rt s a n d t h e re l a t e d s o rt o f ca s e s a n d p r o c e s s e s, t h e r e i s n o c o u rt t h a t s a i d I a ct e d u n l a w f u l l y. ADV 20 MOKHARI SC: No, not u n l a w f u l l y. Yo u a ct e d u n l a w f u l l y w h e n y o u u s e d t h e p r o vi si o n o f t h e l a w w h i c h t h e c o u rt s a y s i s n o t c o n si st e n t w i t h t h e c o n st i t u t i o n . What the C h a i r i s p u t t i n g t o y o u i s t h a t u n l a w f u l l y i s so m e t h i n g . . . t o a s k h i s l a w y e r s t h a t i s n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s o ff e n si ve . M R N H L E K O : O k a y. ADV MOKHARI SC: B u t t h e p r o b l e m i s, i f y o u h a v e a ct e d Page 170 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 w i t h u l t e ri o r m o t i v e s, m a l i c e , b a d - f a i t h , t h e n t h a t i s w h e r e t h e p r o b l e m c o m e s. said yo u a ct e d with S o . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] t h a t t h e co u rt n e v e r u l t e ri o r motives or malice. But u n l a w f u l l y, t h e c o u rt h a s a l r e a d y s p o k e n o n t h a t . MR NHLEKO: H’m. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e , t h e p r e si d e n t a n d t h e m i n i st e r s, c a b i n e t m i n i st e r s, v e r y o f t e n t h e y a r e i n v o l v e d i n l i t i g a t i o n a n d t h e c o u rt s a y s t h e y a ct e d u n l a w f u l l y b u t a s l o n g a s t h e c o u rt h a s n o t s a i d y o u w e r e . . . t h e m i n i st e r o f t h e p re s i d e n t 10 w a s a ct i n g m a l i ci o u sl y o r i n b a d -f a i t h o r d i s h o n e st l y, t h e y a c c e p t t h a t i t i s p a rt o f t h e i r j o b . We l l , so m e o f t h e t h i n g s they do, meaning well, would be found to have been done u n l a w f u l l y. S o i t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a ri l y. . . y o u s h o u l d n o t n e c e s s a r i l y f e e l e m b a r r a s se d i f a c o u rt s a y s y o u a ct e d u n l a w f u l l y, u n l e s s i t i s a si t u a t i o n w h e r e i t s a y s y o u w e re m a l i ci o u s, y o u a ct e d i n b a d -f a i t h o r y o u h a d u l t e ri o r m o t i v e s. Then that is d i ff e r e n t . M R N H L E K O : O k a y. N o , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a i r. 20 A D V M O K H A R I S C : Ye s, C h a i r. T h e n I j u st w a n t t o m o v e t o t h e t w o r e p o rt s b e ca u s e t h e r e w a s a l e n g t h y e n g a g e m e n t between you and the Chair which was quite enlightening. B u t I j u st w a n t e d t o cl a ri f y s o t h a t y o u k n o w w e a r e cl e a r a b o u t . . . w h a t i t i s y o u a r e t h i n ki n g a r o u n d t h e i s s u e o f t h e t w o r e p o rt s. Page 171 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 I f yo u r e m e m b e r t h e e n g a g e m e n t b e t w e e n yo u a n d t h e c h a i r p e r so n y e st e r d a y. The p r o p o si t i o n t o y o u a n d sa y: C h a i rp e r s o n was putting a “L o o k, w e h a ve t h i s I P I D i n st i t u t i o n w h i c h h a s t w o r e p o rt s. And it follows that they s h o u l d n o t b e r e a l l y a n i s s u e b u t b e c a u se l o g i c a l l y y o u s h o u l d si m p l e s a y t h a t t h e l a st r e p o rt i s t h e f i n a l re p o rt . A n d so what is the fuss there?” S o c a n w e g e t y o u r cl e a r u n d e r st a n d i n g t h e r e i n t h e c o n t e xt o f y o u r u n d e r st a n d i n g o f w h a t a r e I P I D r e p o rt s t h e re 10 for? MR NHLEKO: H’m. M y u n d e r st a n d i n g H o n o u ra b l e C h a i r i s t h a t o u r e a rl i e r d i s c u s si o n . . . I a m s o r r y. I w i l l r e f e r t o i t a s a d i s c u s si o n w i t h t h e C h a i r b e c a u s e t h e v a ri o u s c ri t i c a l p o i n t s t h a t w e r e t h r o w n i n t h e a i r a s p a rt o f t h a t e n g a g e m e n t . I s t h a t f o r m e , I t h i n k yo u r i n t e r p r e t a t i o n t h e r e i s b a s e d o n t h e g e n e r a l s i d e o f t h i n g s a n d I t h i n k I m u st h a v e p o i n t e d that one out. B u t w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e re p o rt s o f t h i s n a t u r e w h i c h i . e . t h e c ri m i n a l l a w m a t t e r s r e l a t i n g t o p o l i c e m i s c o n d u ct a n d s o 20 o n , t h e y w i l l e s s e n t i a l l y b e b a s e d o n f a ct u a l m a t e ri a l . N o w t h e f a ct u a l m a t e ri a l b e i n g t h e m a t e ri a l t h a t y o u w i l l find in the docket and what you will find in the docket are st a t e m e n t s f r o m i n d i vi d u a l s t h a t s t a t e s ce rt a i n t h i n g s a n d p e r h a p s i m p l i c a t i n g m e , c e rt a i n p e o p l e . S o t h a t i s t h e st re n g t h . And I think I eluded also Mr Page 172 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 M o k h a ri t o t h i s p o i n t t h a t i n c a se t h e r e i s a m a t e ri a l s h i f t , i n o t h e r w o r d s, so m e b o d y m a d e a st a t e m e n t i m p l i c a t i n g X a n d t h e n t u r n s a r o u n d a n d s a y s, “ N o , a ct u a l l y I w a s w ro n g . X was not there and maybe I lied”. The A n d w h a t e v e r t h e c a se i s. S o t h a t m a t e ri a l l y r e g i st e r s a d i ff e r e n t so rt o f c o n cl u si o n , y o u kn o w, i n a p a r t i c u l a r w a y. B u t i t i s a l s o t o b e e x p e ct e d t h a t w h e n y o u f i n d , w h e t h e r i t i s a f o l l o w u p o r a se c o n d r e p o rt , yo u w o u l d h a v e t o r e f e r t o t h e f i r st o n e , w h e t h e r y o u a r e w i t h d r a w i n g i t o r a n n u l l i n g i t 10 o r a m e n d i n g i t . I t h i n k t h a t i s w h a t p r a ct i c e s a n d s o o n i s. A D V M O K H A R I S C : Ye s. M R N H L E K O : S o I w a s t r y i n g M r M o k h a ri e a rl i e r o n t o d r a w t h e d i st i n ct i o n b e t w e e n co n st r u ct i n g , w h a t I w o u l d c a l l a g e n e r a l r e p o rt b a s e d o n . . . w e l l , n o t so m u c h o f m a t e ri a l a n d s o o n , a s o p p o s e d t o a n i n v e st i g a t i v e r e p o rt a n d so o n . S o I t h i n k m y e n g a g e m e n t e a rl i e r o n a b o u t t h a t . Ye s, y e s. ADV MOKHARI SC: you 20 could Ye s, b u t I t h i n k w h a t . . . b u t t h e n w h a t a p p r e ci a t e from the engagement with the Chairperson is that in this type of things a debate can go on a n d y o u c a n h a v e d i ff e r e n t vi e w s. MR NHLEKO: Right. ADV MOKHARI SC: B u t t h e n t h e q u e st i o n s t h a t I a m g o i n g t o . . . a n d t h a t i s n o w i s t h e n . . . I m e a n , t h e c o n cl u si o n , a r e t h e f o l l o w i n g q u e st i o n s w h i c h I w o u l d l i k e yo u t o a s si st t h e Page 173 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 Chairperson with. S u p p o se w h e n y o u g o t t h e t w o r e p o rt s, y o u t h e n l o o k e d a t w h a t y o u r m i n d i s s e t : “I c a n n o t h a ve t h i s c o n st i t u t i o n a l i n st i t u t i o n p r o d u c i n g t w o co n t r a d i c t o r y r e p o rt s. What will this send? What message will this send to the public?” A n d y o u b e c o m e a n g r y a s t h e m i n i st e r o r y o u b e c o m e f u ri o u s t o s a y t h a t : “I c a n n o t h a v e t h i s t y p e o f si t u a t i o n . I w a n t t o g e t t o t h e b o t t o m o f t h i s ”. M R N H L E K O : C o rr e ct . 10 ADV MOKHARI SC: B u t so m e b o d y m a y s a y t h a t : “No, but y o u a re o ve r r e a ct i n g . T h e r e i s n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h w h a t t h e y w e re d o i n g ”. B u t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] t h a t t i m e y o u b e l i e v e d t h a t t h i s c a n b e done. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. ADV MOKHARI SC: I s t h a t n o w t h e n . . . b u t m y q u e st i o n i s. I f yo u a r e f o u n d l a t e r t h a t i n f a ct y o u w e r e w r o n g , y o u sh o u l d n o t h a ve d o n e a n yt h i n g b u t y o u h a v e d o n e s o m e t h i n g , y o u w o u l d h a ve d o n e s o m e t h i n g ? I n w h a t w a y w i l l t h a t b e c o m e a 20 st a t e c a p t u r e ? S o t h a t i s w h a t I w a n t e d t o . B e c a u s e r e m e m b e r, w e a re n o t h e r e i n a c o u rt o f l a w. We a re not here running a t ri a l . We are here in a c o m m i s si o n o f i n q u i r y w h i c h i s f o c u s si n g o n a p a rt i cu l a r i s s u e o f a st a t e c a p t u r e . S o c a n y o u a s si st t h e C h a i r p e r s o n i n t h a t c o n t e xt ? Page 174 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r, t h e . . . I h a ve a l s o vi e w e d t h i s m a t t e , s p e ci f i c a l l y t h i s m a t t e r, n o t t h e st a t e c a p t u r e i s s u e . T h e m a t t e r a r o u n d M r M c B ri d e a n d o t h e r s a n d s o o n , a s p u r e l y a s n o t h i n g e l s e , e m p l o y e r a n d e m p l o y e e re l a t i o n s. N o w i t i s n a t u r a l i n i n d u st ri a l r e l a t i o n s p r a ct i ce y o u . . . i t i s a n a t u r a l t h i n g t h a t t h e r e w i l l b e d i s p u t e s t h a t a l s o a ri s e i n the employment... employee/employer relationship and so on. S o t h i s m a t t e r t o m e st i l l r e m a i n s t h a t . 10 T h e m o st u n f o rt u n a t e t h i n g i s t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h i t w a s h a n d l e d . do not k n o w, you k n o w, the happenings o u t si d e I this p a rt i c u l a r C o m m i s si o n a n d s o o n w h i c h I w o u l d n o t w a n t t h e b o r e t h i s C o m m i s si o n a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d w h o sa i d w h a t w h e r e a n d s o o n a n d so i t g o e s. But the m o st u n f o rt u n a t e p a rt was that. The c o n se q u e n c e o f w h i c h w a s t h a t t h a t w h a t w a s d u e t o t h e p u b l i c t o b e kn o w n a s t h e a ct u a l t r u t h o u t o f t h i s m a t t e r, t h e p u b l i c w a s d e p ri v e d b e c a u se t h e m i s h a n d l i n g o f t h e w h o l e a ff a i r . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] y o u c o u l d n o t . . . 20 T h e p ro c e s s e s t h a t w e r e s u p p o s e d t o e st a b l i s h w h e n t h e w h o l e q u e st i o n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e t w o re p o rt s a n d s o o n a n d w h o i s t o b e h e l d a c c o u n t a b l e f o r t h e d i s cr e p a n c i e s a n d s o f o rt h , n e ve r a ct u a l l y o c c u r r e d , ri g h t . S o t h a t i s w h y I a m s a yi n g t h e p u b l i c, m e m b e r s o f t h e p u b l i c w e r e t h e n d e p ri v e d o f t h e a c t u a l t r u t h a b o u t t h i s. B u t Page 175 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 the allegations are ve r y s e ri o u s and they st i l l remain e xt r e m e l y se ri o u s . N o w, b u t t h e s u g g e st i o n s a r e t h a t . . . i n f a ct , I a l s o w a n t e d t o a d d r e s s t h e C h a i r a b o u t t h i s q u e st i o n o f t h e s u g g e st i o n o f t h e st a t e c a p t u r e . N o w, the allegations a g a i n st myself are e xt r e m e l y s e r i o u s b e c a u s e M r M c B ri d e c a m e h e r e a n d t h e y s a i d t h e y h a ve c a p t u r e d t h e c ri m i n a l j u st i c e cl u st e r. N o w t h e C ri m i n a l J u st i ce C l u st e r, j u st f o r y o u r b e n e f i t 10 y o u r H o n o u ra b l e C h a i r, i t i s t h e N a t i o n a l D e f e n c e F o r ce , i t i s H o m e A ff a i r s, i t i s C o r r e ct i o n a l S e r vi c e s, i t i s S t a t e S e c u ri t y A g e n cy, i t i s t h e S o u t h A f ri c a n P o l i c e S e r vi c e , i t i s t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i t y. N o w, . . . [ i n d i st i n c t ] at the time when I was there . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d J u st i c e ? I s J u st i c e n o t p a rt ? MR NHLEKO: O, ja. Ju st i c e . N o , so r ry. I am... [ la u g h s] A n d I k n o w w h y C h a i r y o u . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] y o u a r e q u i c k t o p i c k u p t h e J u st i c e i s n o t m e n t i o n e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] MR NHLEKO: I u n d e r st a n d t h a t . D e p a rt m e n t o f J u st i c e . So. Ye s, and the So that combination, at the time I w a s t h e r e , I a m n o t s u r e n o w, b u t a t t h i s t i m e w h e n I w a s i n g o ve r n m e n t , t h a t w a s y o u r C ri m i n a l J u st i c e C l u st e r. N o w, i f y o u s a y I h a v e c a p t u r e d t h e C ri m i n a l Ju st i c e Page 176 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 C l u st e r, y o u a r e t h e n s a yi n g , I a s t h e Mi n i st e r o f P o l i c e t h e n , I h a d t h e p o w e r t o d e ci d e o n t h e i s s u e s o f p r o s e c u t i o n w h i c h i s n o t t r u e . I t i s n o t e v e n a l l o w a b l e b y l a w, o k a y. So e ve n c o n st i t u t i o n a l l y . . . [ i n d i s t i n ct ] that did not h a p p e n . I t j u st d o e s n o t . N o w, . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] g i v e n a . . . n o , a t s o m e p o i n t w a s, w h e n I w a s t r yi n g t o f o l l o w i n w h a t w a y d i d , I c a p t u r e t h e C ri m i n a l J u st i ce S y st e m . M y . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] w a s l a rg e l y w a s t h a t t h a t p o i n t w a s n o t c o n ve r s e d a n y f u r t h e r h e re i n t h e C o m m i s si o n . 10 To t h e n s a y b u t y o u a re m a ki n g t h e se a l l e g a t i o n s t h a t , y o u k n o w, t h i s p e r s o n c a p t u r e d t h e se i n st i t u t i o n s b e ca u s e t h a t m e a n s a l l o f t h e m a re i n m y p o c k e t i n a s e n s e . B u t e x p l a i n t o u s a s t h e C o m m i s si o n a s t o h o w t h i s i n d i vi d u a l , m y s e l f . . . I m e a n , m e a n i n g m y s e l f w o u l d h a v e g o n e a b o u t c a p t u r i n g t h i s p a rt i cu l a r i n st i t u t i o n s. S o t h a t w a s t h e o n e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] I h a d t o r e a l l y, t o b e q u i t e h o n e st o n m y si d e , t o t h e n s a y b u t w h y i s t h i s p o i n t n o t f u rt h e r t a k e n u p o r so o n . B u t I a m n o t b l a m i n g t h e C o m m i s si o n . 20 I a m j u st m a ki n g a n o b s e r va t i o n a b o u t t h a t a s w e l l . CHAIRPERSON: Ja , I m u st s a y I d o n o t e v e n r e m e m b e r i t b e i n g m a d e . I a m n o t s a yi n g i t w a s n o t m a d e . I a m s a yi n g I do not remember it being made. And probably because it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t a ff e ct s yo u d i r e ct l y, y o u . . . n o , b u t y o u d o n o t n e e d t o r e f e r m e t o i t b e c a u s e yo u r c o u n se l w i l l b e cr o s s Page 177 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 e x a m i n i n g M r M c B ri d e a n d h e w i l l t a k e t h a t p o i n t u p . M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: sorry about J u st o n t h a t p o i n t H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r a n d I a m t h i s. In the communication, the initial c o m m u n i c a t i o n w h e n I w a s n o t i f i e d b y t h e C o m m i s si o n , i n t h e l e t t e r t h e y n e e d . . . t h e c o m m i s si o n m a d e t h e f o l l o w i n g : “Yo u i m p r o p e rl y o r u n l a w f u l l y s o u g h t t o a n d d u l y i n t e rf e re i n t h e i n v e st i g a t i v e i n d e p e n d e n t s o f t h e 10 National P r o se c u t i n g A u t h o ri t y, the Independent P o l i c e D i re ct o r a t e a n d t h e D i re ct o r a t e f o r P ri o ri t y C ri m e I n v e st i g a t i o n s, commonly kn o w n as the H AW K S . S e c o n d l y, yo u i m p r o p e rl y a n d / o r u n l a w f u l l y s o u g h t t o unduly delay and/or d e cl i n e re c o m m e n d e d p r o s e c u t i o n s. Yo u i m p r o p e rl y (t h a t i s t h e f o u rt h p o i n t ) o r u n l a w f u l l y s o u g h t t o p a rt i ci p a t e i n t h e u n d u e p e r s e cu t i o n o f o ff i ci a l s i n t h e N PA , I P I D a n d t h e D P C I . 20 T h e l a st p o i n t i n t h e C o m m i s si o n s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e : “Yo u i m p r o p e rl y and/or unlawfully sought to d e st a b i l i s e t h e N PA , I P I D a n d / o r D P C I . . . ” N o w a n d t h e r e f o r e m y p o i n t e a rl i e r o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a re r e a d i n g f r o m c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f r o m t h e C o m m i s si o n ? Page 178 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: That is the correspondence from the C o m m i s si o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m t h e C o m m i s si o n ? M R N H L E K O : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: We l l , I j u st w a n t t o s a y [ l a u g h s] . I do not s e e a l l t h e c o rr e s p o n d e n c e t h a t g o e s o u t a n d a ct u a l l y, i t i s ri g h t t h a t w a y t h a t I s h o u l d n o t s e e . [ l a u g h s] otherwise, I would not be able to do Because a n yt h i n g else. B u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] 10 ADV MOKHARI SC: I t h i n k . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] re f e rri n g t o t h e Rule 3.3. MR NHLEKO: Rule 3.3. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, b u t I t h i n k . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] ADV MOKHARI SC: A n d a ct u a l l y, t h o se ru l e s a r e w ri t t e n . . . t h e y a r e w ri t t e n a s a st a n d a r d . J u s t a st a n d a r d t h i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, but I am si m p l e sa yi n g . I am e x p e ct i n g t h a t i n s o f a r a s i t w a s a 3 . 3 . N o t i c e , i t w a s s u p p o s e t o r e f l e ct w h a t i s i n s o m e b o d y’s a ff i d a vi t i s. . . h a s i m p l i ca t e you. 20 M R N H L E K O : Ye s. H ’ m . H ’ m . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. M R N H L E K O : Ye s, t h a t w a s m y m i s g i vi n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR NHLEKO: Only to then say but if these are the allegations that are made against me, why these issues Page 179 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 c o u l d n o t t h e n i n a ri si n g o u t o f t e st i m o n i e s o f p e o p l e t h a t w e re h e r e , w h y w e r e t h e s e i s s u e s n o t e x p l o r e d t o e st a b l i s h t h e v e r a ci t y o f t h e s e p a rt i c u l a r s m a t t e r s a n d so o n ? S o t h a t w a s t h e o n l y t h i n g b u t I a m . . . j a , I j u st w a n t e d t o cl a ri f y t h a t p o i n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. O ka y, o ka y. M R N H L E K O : T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h C h a i r. ADV MOKHARI SC: Ye s, b u t t h e q u e st i o n n o w a f t e r yo u h a ve r e a d t h a t , t h e q u e st i o n w o u l d b e , d i d y o u d o a n y o f 10 t h o se t h i n g s t h a t a r e a l l e g e d i n t h a t n o t i ce ? MR NHLEKO: N o , I d i d n o t H o n o u r a b l e C h a i r. I h a ve d e m o n st r a t e d e v e n i n t h e t e st i m o n y t h a t I l e d b e f o re t h i s C o m m i s si o n a s t o w h y I d i d c e rt a i n t h i n g s. What i n f o rm e d me and what w e re the enabling i n st r u m e n t s f o r m e t o t a k e c e rt a i n p o si t i o n s a n d / o r a ct i o n i n re l a t i o n t o ce rt a i n i n d i vi d u a l s t h a t g o t a ff e ct e d a n d s o o n . S o a t a l l m a t e ri a l t i m e s, I a ct e d i n t h e i n t e r e st o f b o t h t h e l a w a n d t h e i n t e r e st o f t h e p u b l i c. ADV MOKHARI SC: 20 T h a n k y o u , C h a i r. I h a v e n o f u rt h e r q u e st i o n s. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , M r M o k h a ri . ADV MOKHARI SC: I am really indebted Chair to the C o m m i s si o n a n d a l s o f o r g i vi n g u s t h e e xt ra t w o d a y s so t h a t w e c a n f i n i s h a n d M r N h l e ko d o e s n o t h a v e t o d o t h e t o - a n d f ro . Page 180 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. A D V M O K H A R I S C : T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h . CHAIRPERSON: N o , t h a n k y o u ve r y m u c h . I think also the C o m m i s si o n i s a p p r e ci a t i v e o f t h e c o o p e r a t i o n t h a t b o t h M r Nhleko and yourself, his legal team have given to the C o m m i s si o n . E v e r yt h i n g w e n t s m o o t h l y. T h e re w e re n o u n n e c e s s a r y interruptions as we were going along and I think that was good cooperation. So thank you very much. 10 A D V M O K H A R I S C : I a p p r e ci a t e t h a t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k y o u . I think have one or two q u e st i o n s t h a t I w a n t t o a s k M r N h l e k o a n d m a y b e o n e o f t h e m i s o f cl a ri f i c a t i o n . Yo u r e m e m b e r y e st e r d a y, I t h i n k a t s o m e st a g e I h a v e a s k e d y o u a b o u t a s i t u a t i o n w h e re a re p o rt h a s b e e n g i v e n b u t s o m e i n ve st i g a t i v e w o r k m u st st i l l b e d o n e . I f t h e r e a r e t w o r e p o rt s, o n e w a s p r o vi d e d w h i l e t h e r e w a s s o m e i n ve st i g a t i v e w o r k st i l l t o b e d o n e a n d a n o t h e r o n e w a s g i v e n l a t e r w h e n t h e r e w a s n o f u rt h e r i n v e st i g a t i v e w o r k 20 to be done. Wo u l d y o u t a k e t h e f i r st o n e a s a f i n a l re p o rt o r t h e s e c o n d o n e a s t h e f i n a l r e p o rt ? M R N H L E K O : [ l a u g h s] I . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] C h a i r b e c a u s e I t h i n k w e . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] q u i t e a n u m b e r o f t i m e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] J u st f o r t h e l a st t i m e . Page 181 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 M R N H L E K O : J a . N o , n o , n o . T h a t i s f o r t h e l a st t i m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR NHLEKO: I a p p r e ci a t e t h a t . It... again, we would have t o g o b a c k t o t h e w h o l e q u e st i o n o f y o u r se c o n d r e p o rt , w h a t does it intended to do? I s i t n u l l i f yi n g t h e f i r st re p o rt o r i s w i t h d r a w i n g t h e f i r st r e p o rt , i s i t a m e n d i n g t h e f i r st re p o rt ? A n d i t i s o n t h e b a si s o f t h a t t h a t a s a r e s p o n si b l e a u t h o ri t y you would then take what you think is the Maybe the n e ce s s a r y s o rt o f p o si t i o n i n a ct i o n f o r t h a t m a t t e r. 10 S o t h a t i s m y u n d e r st a n d i n g C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. M R N H L E K O : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , t h a n k y o u ve r y m u c h . A D V M O K H A R I S C : M a y b e t h e q u e st i o n s h o u l d b e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja? ADV MOKHARI SC: S o r ry, C h a i rp e r s o n . q u e st i o n s h o u l d b e , w h a t i s yo u r u n d e r st a n d i n g o f t h e l e g a l st a t u s o f t h e l e g a l st a t u s o f t h e I P I D r e p o rt s ? What weight d o t h e y o r d i n a ri l y. . . e v e n h a v e a n y l e g a l st a n d i n g o r i s i t o n e 20 o f t h o s e re p o rt s t h a t , a s y o u s a y, e n o u g h e x p e ri e n ce i n g o ve r n m e n t w h i c h y o u w i l l a s k o ff i ci a l s, y o u k n o w, y o u r m a n a g e r s a n d so o n t o p re p a r e a r e p o rt . I f y o u d o n o t l i k e i t , y o u c a n s a y g o b a c k a n d d ra f t a n o t h e r o n e . D o t h e y h a v e a n y l e g a l st a n d i n g i n t h e s c h e m e of things? Page 182 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR NHLEKO: s e r i o u s re p o rt s. T h e I P I D i n ve st i g a t i o n s re p o rt s a r e v e r y Whichever way you want to look at it but t h e y a re v e r y s e r i o u s r e p o rt s. A n d i n d e e d , y o u k n o w, I . . . t h a t i s w h y I a l s o u n d e r st a n d t h i s cl o s e r c o n n e ct i o n b e t w e e n I P I D a n d t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o ri t i e s b e c a u s e o f t h e w e i g h t , I m e a n , t h e i n v e st i g a t i v e r e p o rt s t h a t t h e y p ro d u c e d f ro m t h a t e n d . A n d I t h i n k, w h e t h e r i t w a s y e st e r d a y o r t h e d a y b e f o r e y e st e r d a y, t h e 10 C h a i r w a s a l s o t r yi n g t o d e l v e i n t o t h i s q u e st i o n o f w h a t i s t h e a ct u a l w e i g h t o f t h e s e r e p o rt s. A n d I d o m a i n t a i n , t h e y a r e v e r y w e i g h t y. T h e y a r e v e r y i m p o rt a n t a n d s o f o rt h . Now I know that the issue has been... is the 2 2 n d o f J a n u a r y, t h e f i n a l r e p o rt o r n o t t h e f i n a l re p o r t a n d s o f o rt h . A n d I m a i n t a i n t h a t i t i s a f i n a l re p o rt . I n f a ct , t h a t st a n d p o i n t i s a l s o g o i n g t o b e c o l l a b o r a t e d b y f u rt h e r e vi d e n c e t h a t i s g o i n g t o b e l e d e v e n t u a l l y b e f o r e t h i s v e r y s a m e C o m m i s si o n a b o u t t h e st a t u s o f t h a t v e r y s a m e r e p o rt vi s a vi e t h e re p o rt o f t h e 1 8 t h o f M a r c h . 20 Thank y o u ve r y m u c h C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you very m u c h M r N h l e k o f o r c o m i n g t o g i v e e vi d e n c e . As I said, I t h i n k e a rl i e r t h i s m o r n i n g o r y e st e r d a y, t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s continue. There is no guarantee that we cannot ask you to come Page 183 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 back but I think we were able to cover quite some ground o v e r t h e p a st . . . j a , o v e r t h e t h r e e d a y s b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g f o r w a r d . Yo u a r e e x c u se d . MR NHLEKO: N o , t h a n k yo u ve r y m u c h C h a i r. I remain c o m m i t t e d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR NHLEKO: . . . t o m y e a rl i e r st a n d p o i n t o f a s si s t i n g t h e C o m m i s si o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. N o , o k a y. 10 MR NHLEKO: A t a n y g i v e n p o i n t , i f t h e r e a re m a t t e r s t h a t y o u t h i n k I c a n cl a r i f y t h i s C o m m i s si o n a b o u t i n r e l a t i o n t o t h i s p a rt i c u l a r m a t t e r, I a m a va i l a b l e a n d c o m m i t t e d t o d o s o . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. M R N H L E K O : T h a n k yo u v e r y m u c h . CHAIRPERSON: am Thank you. going to take I a m g o i n g t o . . . M r H u l l e y, I a s h o rt a d j o u rn m e n t b e c a u s e I have a n o t h e r w i t n e s s t o l i st e n t o . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Ye s. T h a n k y o u , Mr C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t t o sa y s o m e t h i n g ? 20 A D V H U L L E Y S C : We l l , I w a s j u st g o i n g t o a s k t h a t w e c o u l d be excused. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV HULLEY SC: B u t o n c e w e st a n d d o w n , w e w i l l e x c u s e o u r s e l v e s. CHAIRPERSON: We l l , I t h i n k i f y o u a re a b l e t o c o l l e ct Page 184 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 w h a t e v e r y o u n e e d t o co l l e ct w h i l e . . . d u ri n g t h e a d j o u r n m e n t , f e e l f r e e . Yo u a r e e x c u se d a s w e l l . A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: And then I will remain with Mr Notshe and a few people here. A D V H U L L E Y S C : Th a n k y o u , M r C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: U n f o rt u n a t e l y, t h e l u c k y o n e s w i l l l e a v e and the unlucky ones will remain. [ l a u g h s] We w i l l t a k e a n a d j o u r n m e n t u p t o t e n t o f o u r. We w i l l r e s u m e a t t e n t o f o u r. 10 We a d j o u r n . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S: I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, Mr Notshe, good a f t e r n o o n e v e r y b o d y. ADV NOTSHE SC: Good afternoon, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON: off. Ye s , y o u c a n f e e l f r e e t o t a k e y o u r m a s k I am sorry that you and the witness have had to wait for such a long time, it has been a difficult day but I appreciate that you are here and I do not think we are 20 going to take long so the Commission really apologises for any inconvenience, Mr Blake. M R B L A K E : T h a n k y o u , C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV NOTSHE SC: C h a i r, t h e w i t n e s s w e a r e c a l l i n g , t h e genesis of his evidence is the evidence of Mr Agrizzi. Page 185 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV NOTSHE SC: The Chair will remember Mr Agrizzi referred to the fact that there were certain bookings that were made for persons outside BOSASA employ and he gave evidence to the effect that …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think you should start by saying that Mr Blake by establishing – indicating the relationship b e t w e e n B l a k e , M r B l a k e a n d B l a k e ’ s Tr a v e l a n d t h e n , o f c o u r s e , t h e n w h a t B l a k e ’ s Tr a v e l w a s t o B O S A S A a n d w h a t 10 Agrizzi said and then that connects with how come Mr Blake is here. A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s . C h a i r, I a m j u s t g e t t i n g t h e r e , t h a t Mr Agrizzi referred to some travel arrangements and made b y a c o m p a n y c a l l e d B l a k e Tr a v e l a n d t h a t t h e s e w e r e t h e travel arrangements and expenses of BOSASA, the c o m p a n y, a n d a l s o t r a v e l a r r a n g e m e n t s t h a t w e r e m a d e f o r people outside BOSASA and, as a result of that, the statements was made and obtained from Mr Brian Blake w h o i s b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o d a y t o t e s t i f y. 20 Mr Blake is t h e m a n a g i n g d i r e c t o r o f t h e B l a k e Tr a v e l a n d h e h a s g i v e n a statement and he will confirm the statement and, most i m p o r t a n t l y, h e w i l l a l s o c o n f i r m t h e C o m m i s s i o n h o w h e came about to also contact the Commission and his statement and the invoices relating to the evidence are contained in bundle D. I understand the bundle is before Page 186 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 you and the statement is EXHIBIT T18. Chair, you will notice inside the – once you open bundle D you will notice that then the index, there is an index and then outside the index there are – there is the pagination, the pages start with T15. That, Chair, refers to the – this exhibit was initially T15 but because of the changes in the previous hearings it has been moved to T18 and we have kept it at T15, the pages, just to avoid expense of printing other pages, but the page numbers 10 remain the same. So when we refer to witnesses, we will refer to BB and then the number. CHAIRPERSON: Well, you remember that when you refer to the pages, we do not even mention the letters, we just – and there is zero, we just say page 1, page 2, page 3. ADV NOTSHE SC: The number itself, yes, ja. I am just mentioning the – correct the issue of T so that it does not throw anyone off. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Okay, alright. ADV NOTSHE SC: 20 Chair, Mr Blake is ready to take the oath and then we will …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but basically Mr Blake’s evidence follows up on Mr Agrizzi’s evidence part of which was that BOSASA and other companies under BOSASA used Blake’s Travel Agency accommodation for – making I do travel not Page 187 of 239 arrangements know whether and also 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 accommodation …[intervenes] ADV NOTSHE SC: There accommodation expenses as well. CHAIRPERSON: Accommodation and that some of the persons for whom travelling arrangement were made by Blake’s Travel were persons who were in government, government officials, and that some of them – and all the travelling expenses that were incurred were paid for by BOSASA and BOSASA then kept an account with Blake’s 10 Travel and the persons that BOSASA asked Blake’s Travel to make arrangements for would not pay Blake’s Travel themselves but BOSASA would pay for their travelling. That is my recollection of that evidence, ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: Yes, that is correct, Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Yes and …[intervenes] ADV NOTSHE SC: And Chair, BOSASA kept an account with Blake Travel. In addition to the BOSASA account Mr Agrizzi also had an account which later changed to a Venter account which, as Mr Agrizzi has testified, it was 20 the name of his father-in-law. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then later his mother-in-law. CHAIRPERSON: ADV NOTSHE SC: Ja, ja. And then the invoices would be issued for those people. Page 188 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: But the payment would be made by BOSASA. CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ADV NOTSHE SC: Either in cheque or in cash. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No, that is fine and Mr Blake will correct any of the things that we have said if they are not correct. MR BLAKE: Yes. 10 CHAIRPERSON: You can administer the oath or affirmation? MR BLAKE: Sorry, honourable Chair, Alderman Blake, that makes a difference. I am actually I am Alderman Blake, I have a title Alderman, I am sure in the legal – Alderman. CHAIRPERSON: Alderman? MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: Chair, he is the member of the municipal council, of a district council. 20 CHAIRPERSON: A what council? ADV NOTSHE SC: A district council? CHAIRPERSON: A district council? ADV NOTSHE SC: Yes and they are called Alderman and… CHAIRPERSON: Alderman? Page 189 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV NOTSHE SC: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: make sure. Okay, how do you spell it, I just want to You know the noise of the air con competes with you. MR BLAKE: Sorry, Chair, it is A-l-d-e-r-m-a-n. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, but that is a title? MR BLAKE: It is a title, like a Councillor. CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: 10 Alderman Blake? Ja, it used to be Councillors but after a certain number of years you achiever Alderman. CHAIRPERSON: ADV NOTSHE SC: Okay. No, that is fine. Okay. Alderman Blake – Chair, can Alderman Blake move to – use that microphone? CHAIRPERSON: Ja, that is fine. I do not know if the other one is working, just – not it is not working. ADV NOTSHE SC: Then move to this chair. CHAIRPERSON: I think move to the other chair. want to sanitise? I think they want to sanitise the chair first before you do so. 20 You Please administer the oath or affirmation? REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record. MR BLAKE: REGISTRAR: Alderman Brian Douglas Blake. Do you have any objection to taking the prescribed affirm ation? MR BLAKE: No. Page 190 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 REGISTRAR: Do you solem nly affirm that the evidence you will give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth? If so, please raise your right hand and say I truly affirm. MR BLAKE: I truly affirm. REGISTRAR: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Ye s , continue, Mr Notshe. ADV NOTSHE 10 SC: Alderman Blake, can you tell the Commission what your relationship between you and Blake Travel Agencies? MR BLAKE: My grandmother started Agency in 1948 after she was Mayoress. Blake’s Tr a v e l It was a coal and wood agency which used to sell coal and wood but after a while the railways came and said do you not wish to sell rail tickets and sea journeys or voyages back to the UK? M y g r a n d f a t h e r t o o k o v e r, m y f a t h e r t o o k o v e r a n d I t o o k over when my father passed away in 1994. We are part of the Sher Group, my father was very instrumental in getting 20 Southern African travel agents together to help get better deals on hotels, cars, flights and assistance with having a network of 50 plus travel agents. ADV NOTSHE SC: today your N o w, M r B l a k e , y o u k n o w y o u k n o w evidence is in relation between BOSASA and Blake Travel. Page 191 of 239 to the relationship When did that start, 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 that relationship start? MR BLAKE: In 1999, 1998. repatriations, sending Home Affairs asked us for immigrants or illegal passengers back to their countries and those years Dyambu would bring passports and Hom e Affairs would collect – we had to hand write tickets those years, collect the tickets and the passports and t y p e w r i t e r. we I would remember invoice typing Home Affairs out invoices. still by These passengers were taken to the airport, put on an aeroplane 10 a n d s e n t b a c k t o t h e i r h o m e c o u n t r y. instances of irregularities. I There were a few remember one Egyptian Airline passenger running off the aeroplane endangering traffic and being caught and put in the Kempton Park police station. It was quite easy for Home Affairs those years to take the people from the Lindela sort of captive camp and transport them to the airport to send them back home. ADV NOTSHE SC: When you refer to Dyambu, mean Dyambu, D-y-a-m-b-u. M R B L A K E : Ye s . 20 A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s . MR BLAKE: Yo u r p r o n u n c i a t i o n i s m o r e – w e c a l l e d i t Dyambu I but suppose the African …[intervenes] ADV NOTSHE SC: “Jambu” MR BLAKE: “Jambu” yes. Page 192 of 239 word would be 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV NOTSHE SC: And that was the previous name of BOSASA, am I correct? MR BLAKE: Correct. A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s . Now you made a statement to the investigators of the Commission, am I right? M R B L A K E : Ye s , I m a d e a s t a t e m e n t . ADV NOTSHE SC: Before you made that statement …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: 10 Yo u m a y k e e p y o u r m i c o n , i t w i l l n o t disturb anything. M R B L A K E : O k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: Before you made that statement, what had happened maybe between – insofar as the relationship between you and BOSASA? MR BLAKE: Well, from 2000 when Dyam bu becam e BOSASA between 2000, 2002, 2004 or somewhere there, we did not make any statements until 2014 when the investigation actually started and my final – well, my signed statement was in 2016. 20 ADV NOTSHE SC: Who took the statement from you? MR BLAKE: Sorry? ADV NOTSHE SC: Who took the statement? MR BLAKE: Colonel Smit, Christoffel Smit. ADV NOTSHE SC: Colonel Smit of the South African Police? Page 193 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR BLAKE: Of the Hawks, yes. A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s , o k a y. MR BLAKE: Ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: And now who it did it come for you to make a statement to the investigators? What prompted you to come out? MR BLAKE: Well, in 2014 Colonel Smit came to me with a certain request and obviously with confidential information, this man walked into my office and asked me for all details 10 on three specific clients, passengers and I said well, you k n o w, I c a n n o t g i v e y o u t h a t , p l e a s e – y o u k n o w, y o u w i l l have to subpoena that or bring me something from the police. I was duly subpoenaed and I took the documents to my lawyer and we agreed to cooperate fully with the Hawks. ADV NOTSHE SC: And you also state in your statement that – and you know that Mr Agrizzi gave evidence before this Commission. M R B L A K E : Ye s . 20 ADV NOTSHE SC: About relationship between you, your company and BOSASA. Can you take the Commission through that, that relationship, the accounts that were opened? MR BLAKE: W e l l , M r A g r i z z i w o u l d - y o u k n o w, a t r a v e l agency is quite hard to run, it is not simple. Page 194 of 239 People can 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 phone you at all hours and BOSASA did, you k n o w, especially when vehicles broke down and guards needed accommodation and – I think it started off slowly but B O S A S A b e g a n t o r e l y o n u s b e c a u s e o f o u r, y o u k n o w, superior travel ability of being able to accurately get good p r i c e s , b o o k p e o p l e a n d , y o u k n o w, w h e n p e o p l e h a d t o g e t on a flight we found seats, different airlines, and it was simple, pick up the phone and book it. We would get an order num ber for the official BOSASA stuff or Mr Agrizzi or 10 Mrs A grizzi would phone me for the confidential stuff. ADV NOTSHE SC: Did BOSASA have an account with Blake Travel? M R B L A K E : Ye s , w e h a d a r u n n i n g a c c o u n t . A D V N O T S H E S C : Wa s i t o n e a c c o u n t o r m a n y a c c o u n t s ? MR BLAKE: We had the BOSASA accounts and we had B O S A S A V I P a c c o u n t o r i g i n a l l y. ADV NOTSHE SC: BOSASA? M R B L A K E : V I P. A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s . W h a t w a s t h a t f o r ? 20 MR BLAKE: that Mr T h a t w a s b a s i c a l l y, I t h i n k , a t t h e b e g i n n i n g Agrizzi kept that account for very important persons, you know …[intervenes] ADV HULLEY SC: Payments for the bookings made through the account, who made those payments? MR BLAKE: First of all, it was BOSASA paying us with two Page 195 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 cheques in those years, in the beginning years. A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s . MR BLAKE: And then Mr Agrizzi paid with his American Express card. ADV NOTSHE SC: I see. MR BLAKE: And then it changed to the cash bookings. ADV NOTSHE SC: Now you have said to the Commission that initially it was BOSASA VIP account. Did the account change? 10 M R B L A K E : Ye s . A D V N O T S H E S C : To w h a t d i d i t c h a n g e ? MR BLAKE: It was BOSASA VIP to Angelo Agrizzi to C Ve n t e r, t o J J Ve n t e r. ADV NOTSHE SC: Now can you turn to the bundle before you, bundle B, page 2. MR BLAKE: Alright. ADV NOTSHE SC: Now paragraph 6 to 9 and in paragraph 9 you were telling the Commission that after Agrizzi’s state testimony you contacted the Com mission and you told it 20 that there are certain invoices you have in your possession, is that correct? MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then you say you handed over the invoices to the Commission, is that correct? MR BLAKE: I handed over relevant Page 196 of 239 invoices and 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 documents. There still may be further documents that the Commission may need. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, there are still other documents that may show different people who travelled? MR BLAKE: It is very difficult, Judge, because we do not know who works for the state and who does not work for the state or who… CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . MR BLAKE: We have quite a bit of data. 10 CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: Ye s . But we have not really had a good you have investigation, a thorough investigation into it. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y. So but documentation, invoices and so on somewhere which, if looked into, could well reveal …[intervenes] MR BLAKE: Further …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: People that have not been mentioned. MR BLAKE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y. MR BLAKE: It could be possible, ja. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: Can you tell the Chair …[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: I think that must be explored, if possible, to see whether we cannot unearth some more people. So that can be explored – should be explored in Page 197 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 due course. M R B L A K E : F u l l y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R B L A K E : Ye s . ADV NOTSHE SC: Now also, Mr Blake, can you also tell the Chairperson about what you did to maintain that record accurate and safe? MR BLAKE: Ye s , J u d g e , a f t e r t h e – i t i s q u i t e a d i f f i c u l t story because we had an investigation with Colonel Smit 10 from 2014 until 2016 till I actually signed the affidavit and I was ready to appear with Adv de Kock in court in February 2016 and the case just disappeared. Colonel Smit came to me and said I will probably testify in 10 years time but he has been told the case is now flat. His direction was for three passengers, the three mentioned in the report but there is a lot of other people. W e d o n o t k n o w, w e d o n o t know if those people are involved or not. W h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f t e r, o n c e M r A g r i z z i b e g a n testifying, I tried to get hold of the Hawks and I was told 20 that the original cloning of my server was stolen, it disappeared. There was guy called Bertus and eventually I could not get hold of Colonel Smit and I eventually got hold of one of the Hawks in Pretoria who came out and recloned m y c o m p u t e r i n F e b r u a r y t h i s y e a r. ADV NOTSHE SC: February 2020? Page 198 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 M R B L A K E : Ye s , t h i s y e a r. ADV NOTSHE SC: Mr Blake, this is important for the Commission. Just to explain this, you are saying that when initially you were contacted by Colonel Smith they took and cloned your hard drive so that they could see all the i n v o i c e s t h a t w e r e m a d e a n d t h e t w o t h a t a w a y. M R B L A K E : Ye s , b o t h i n 2 0 1 4 a n d i n 2 0 2 0 . ADV NOTSHE SC: And then you say that when you made enquiries after Mr Agrizzi testified you found that that 10 evidence had been destroyed, had gotten lost with the Hawks? MR BLAKE: I d o n o t k n o w, I s p o k e t o C o l o n e l S m i t a g a i n and he said no, that evidence could not – it is impossible for that to happen. I h a v e c o n t a c t e d h i m , y o u k n o w, s u b s e q u e n t l y, a n d h e s a i d t h a t i s l o c k e d a w a y w i t h t h e Supreme Court, that evidence is locked up. ADV NOTSHE SC: But you – and then also you say that you – insofar as that evidence of Colonel Smith, you were contacted and you were supposed to testify as a witness in 20 that case but in the end you never testified? MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: I see. CHAIRPERSON: So the documentation that you gave to Colonel Smith, would it relate to travelling arrangements made under the account of BOSASA or does it involve Page 199 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 o t h e r p e o p l e ’ s a c c o u n t s w i t h B l a k e s Tr a v e l ? MR BLAKE: Chair it was specifically for Mr Mti, Ms Njana and Mr Gilliam, Lt Col Smit’s focus was on those three passengers and their families. CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: Ye s . Obviously there were other people but his focus was totally ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: 10 That fall under the BOSASA accounts? BOSASA or BOSASA associates. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , t h a t i s w h a t I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t s o I think we should try and do whatever we can to be able to see if we can get those invoices so that we can see whether they are people from government that have not, whose names have not been mentioned here, who also travelled and got paid for by BOSASA. pursue that. So we should So you don’t have that documentation with you because it was taken by the Hawks? MR BLAKE: No, we still have that – we have still got it. Chair also I had a – on the 7th, sorry on the 14th of 20 September I appeared at a tax inquiry which also asked me for documentation which I gave through lots of invoices. CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: Ye s , y e s . For them to follow up. There’s you know R40million of travel over six years is ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: That is involved there. Page 200 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR BLAKE: It is a lot of work ja, it is a lot of. CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: M r B l a k e j u s t t o a l s o m a y b e j u s t c l e a r, when you talk about the evidence that the police took a w a y, i t i s j u s t t h e c l o n i n g o f y o u r h a r d d r i v e , y o u r h a r d drive you still have the original hard drive? MR BLAKE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, then the investigators should just do something to check how far we can go in trying to get other 10 names of government people or politicians who may have t r a v e l l e d u n d e r t h e B O S A S A a c c o u n t s a t B l a k e ’ s Tr a v e l . MR BLAKE: Ye s , a n d a l s o C h a i r w h e n I s p o k e t o C o l o n e l Smit there were other travel agencies involved. CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: Oh is that so? Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Which were paid for by BOSASA, where BOSASA had accounts? MR BLAKE: BOSASA or Dr Smit or – I remember a receipt made out with no name on it. 20 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, I t h i n k t h a t i s i m p o r t a n t i f t h e Commission investigators you can share that information w i t h t h e m w h e n t h e y t a l k t o y o u , t h e y s h o u l d t a k e i t f u r t h e r. M R B L A K E : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: ADV NOTSHE SC: O k a y. Now Mr – Alderman Blake then whilst Page 201 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 we are on page 2 can you just read it for the record, p a r a g r a p h 11 , w h e r e i t d e a l s w i t h y o u r o p e r a t i o n s w i t h BOSASA. CHAIRPERSON: Well he doesn’t have to read it Mr Notshe, you can ask him the question, he knows these things, he knows it, it is his business, he has been doing it for a long time, he will just tell you. ADV NOTSHE SC: From this paragraph it is clear that the first thing, the main account opened was for BOSASA 10 o p e r a t i o n s P t y, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR BLAKE: Correct it is BOSASA Pty Limited, ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: And from my understanding of your evidence that was for the operations of BOSASA. MR BLAKE: The general operations of meetings, of people, of detainees, of guards, of accommodation, ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then you say that then there was a second account which was opened in the name of BOSASA O p e r a t i o n s V I P, t h e o n e y o u t a l k e d a b o u t , t h e V I P a c c o u n t . MR BLAKE: 20 Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then you say over the years then this changed from the BOSASA VIP to the personal account of Mr Agrizzi? MR BLAKE: Correct, Mr Agrizzi asked me to change it to his name, and ...[intervenes] ADV NOTSHE SC: And then in 2009 it changed to the Page 202 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 n a m e o f C Ve n t e r ? MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: A n d t h e n 2 0 1 2 C Ve n t e r w a s c l o s e d a n d t h e n a n e w a c c o u n t o f J J Ve n t e r. MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: So the invoices you issued were i s s u e d b y B l a k e Tr a v e l w i l l b e t o t h e s e – f o r V I P t r a v e l s i t will be to – the invoice will be VIP and when it changed to A g r i z z i t o A g r i z z i , Ve n t e r, C Ve n t e r a n d J J Ve n t e r. 10 MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: Now if you can turn back to the beginning of, Chair the beginning of Exhibit 18, there is an i n d e x C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: At the beginning? ADV NOTSHE SC: At the beginning there is an index, it says index Exhibit 18. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: There on item 3 to item 22 of that index what is indicated in those items, from 3 to 22? 20 CHAIRPERSON: Why don’t we go to the page where they are? ADV NOTSHE SC: CHAIRPERSON: They start from page ...[intervenes] Is it 56? ADV NOTSHE SC: Let me, before I even go there, Mr Blake you confirm that – you have just confirmed that you Page 203 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 did issue invoices for a number of people? MR BLAKE: W e l l y o u a l w a y s i s s u e a n i n v o i c e C h a i r, i t w a s s t a n d a r d p r o c e d u r e , i t w a s VAT o r n o n - VAT r e l a t e d i t was always to either one of the companies of BOSASA or t o C Ve n t e r o r J J Ve n t e r. The record is quite nice in that sense that it is quite accurate because on the invoices also t h e r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r t o t h e h o t e l o r t h e c a r, o r a i r t i c k e t n u m b e r. ADV NOTSHE SC: 10 If we just take one invoice, Annexure BB4, starting from page 56 to 57. MR BLAKE: o k a y. I ’ v e g o t b i g f i n g e r s , I ’ m s o r r y. There we go, We have an invoice num ber BT22804. ADV NOTSHE SC: Ye s o n p a g e 5 7 , a n d t h i s i s t h e i n v o i c e i s t o M r J J Ve n t e r ? MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: And that is ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Let us start by saying it is on the l e t t e r h e a d o f B l a k e ’ s Tr a v e l A g e n t s P t y L i m i t e d , i s t h a t right, Alderman? 20 MR BLAKE: C o r r e c t y e s C h a i r a n d i t h a s g o t t h e VAT n u m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: ADV Ye s , a n d i t i s m a d e o u t t o M r J J Ve n t e r ? NOTSHE Ye s , y o u c a n c o n t i n u e M r N o t s h e . SC: And what Page 204 of 239 is this invoice for 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: ... for the date and so on and the amounts. ADV NOTSHE SC: And he date of the invoice? MR BLAKE: That is the invoice the cheque is dated the 27th of January 2016. ADV NOTSHE SC: MR BLAKE: And what is the invoice for? The invoice is for accommodation at Sun C i t y, S u n I n t e r n a t i o n a l H o t e l , t h e P a l a c e . 10 ADV NOTSHE SC: CHAIRPERSON: And then who ...[intervenes] I a m s o r r y, s o d o e s t h i s i n v o i c e r e f l e c t t h a t B l a k e ’ s Tr a v e l h a d m a d e t h e b o o k i n g f o r s o m e b o d y t o stay at Sun International Hotel, the Palace, is that right? MR BLAKE: Chair not always, this one is a little different, I remember it that I think it was Mr Dlamini who made this r e s e r v a t i o n a n d w e t o o k i t o v e r. Often somebody will say please just hold the room for us, and then we would phone i n a n d s a y r i g h t w e ’ r e t a k i n g o v e r, w e n e e d y o u r b a n k details, we will pay by credit card or we will pay you by 20 E F T. CHAIRPERSON: If it was Mr Dlamini was that supposed to be your client? MR BLAKE: Mr Sivion Dlamini worked for ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: Oh, for BOSASA, Sivion Dlamini for BOSASA? Page 205 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR BLAKE: Ja, correct. CHAIRPERSON: So he had made, initially he made, he asked your travel agency to make a booking. M R B L A K E : Ta k e o v e r t h e b o o k i n g . CHAIRPERSON: And was that in respect of himself or in respect of somebody else? MR BLAKE: I think it was first in the name of Mr Bipape a n d t h e n i t w a s c h a n g e d t o h i s s e c r e t a r y, J a d e A a r o n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR BLAKE: O h , o k a y. I presume that was how it – it was a sort of emergency case where Sun International doesn’t just hold rooms, you have to pay them, you’re quite – very tough on – a n d w e p a i d t h e m a n d w e i n v o i c e d J J Ve n t e r w h o p a i d us. CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. M r N o t s h e ? ADV NOTSHE SC: Ye s a n d t h e n t h e a m o u n t o f t h e i n v o i c e at the bottom it is R16 178,89, correct? MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: 20 And then you paid Sun International and then how were you paid? MR BLAKE: Ve n t e r. I was paid cash by Mr Agrizzi from J J A l l J J Ve n t e r i n v o i c e s w e r e r e c o n c i l e d a n d c a s h was collected for this. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then the next invoice is on page 58, actually the invoice itself starts on page 59. Page 206 of 239 Is it 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 c o r r e c t t h e i n v o i c e i s i n t h e l e t t e r h e a d s o f B l a k e Tr a v e l s , i n t h e t a x i n v o i c e b y B l a k e Tr a v e l ? MR BLAKE: Correct, it is our invoice. ADV NOTSHE SC: MR BLAKE: Ye s a n d t o w h o m i s i t i n v o i c e d ? To M r K M o k o n y a n e . ADV NOTSHE SC: And what is this invoice for? CHAIRPERSON: Well the invoice is to BOSASA Operations Pty Limited isn’t it, it is directed to them? MR BLAKE: 10 Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but in respect of? MR BLAKE: Budget Car Hire, a car rental. CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: Ye s , f o r w h o s e b e n e f i t ? It says for a Mr K Mokonyane, but sometimes the people get it wrong when the invoice ...[intervenes] CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: give a Could that be a Miss? It could be. Judge what happens is we would voucher through so there is a whole lot of d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t g o e s w i t h t h i s , t h e r e i s a c a r v o u c h e r, it would then be rented out, the bill would come back to us 20 and then we will do the invoice after we’d received the bill. CHAIRPERSON: MR BLAKE: O k a y. So it could be that the car hire company made the error and we just did the invoice after that but the person renting the car would have had to give their ID and their driver ’s license. Page 207 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV NOTSHE SC: Now on the following page, on page 1 6 , i s a g a i n a n i n v o i c e b y B l a k e ’ s Tr a v e l A g e n c y a n d t o M r J J Ve n t e r, a n d t h i s i s f o r B u d g e t C a r, a n d t h e d e s c r i p t i o n is Ms K Mokonyane with the amount of 517. MR BLAKE: This Chair relates to a traffic fine. ADV NOTSHE SC: MR BLAKE: And who paid for this? I t w a s M r J J Ve n t e r, w e l l M r A g r i z z i t h r o u g h c a s h t o J J Ve n t e r ’ s a c c o u n t . ADV NOTSHE SC: 10 I see. And then the following one at p a g e 6 1 i s a g a i n a n i n v o i c e t o M r J J Ve n t e r, t h e d r i v e r i s Ms K Mokonyane and the amount is R287. MR BLAKE: Again a traffic fine, also paid by Mr Agrizzi c a s h t h r o u g h h i s J J Ve n t e r a c c o u n t . ADV NOTSHE SC: CHAIRPERSON: And then the next one is ...[intervenes] Yo u m a y, I think for the sake of completeness we can cover the charge as well, to say it was on that date addressed to so and so in respect of so and so and this was the charge, so it makes it easier to know what was spent on a particular individual if there is a 20 repeat. ADV NOTSHE SC: Chair will it also make it easier if instead of going through the invoices if the Chair were to look at – starting from page 32, page 32 has a spreadsheet of the amounts paid and the triple paid and it then in one p l a c e c o v e r s t h e e x p e n s e s t h a t w e r e p a i d b y B l a k e Tr a v e l Page 208 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 and then compensated by BOSASA. Now Chair this spreadsheet is then backed up by the invoices that I was taking the witnesses through. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: this So it can be safe if one goes through spreadsheet knowing that this is covered by the invoices. CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine then. ADV NOTSHE SC: 10 Mr Blake just to put it on record let’s go to page 32. MR BLAKE: Alright. ADV NOTSHE SC: Just hold, put your hand on page 32 and then this goes up to page 55. MR BLAKE: Right. ADV NOTSHE SC: And now am I correct to say that this spreadsheet is sort of a summary of the invoices that were i s s u e d b y B l a k e Tr a v e l a n d i t s e t s o u t t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r, t h e i n v o i c e n u m b e r, t h e d a t e o f t h e i n v o i c e , t h e a d d r e s s e e , the 20 person to whom the invoice was addressed, a description of the invoice and the amount and then at the bottom, at the right hand it tells the Commission where the invoice is in the bundle, am I correct? MR BLAKE: It is a very good summary Chair of the clients that we have identified but there may be further p e o p l e o n t h a t J J Ve n t e r a c c o u n t t h a t t h e y h a v e f a l l e n Page 209 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 through the cracks. ADV NOTSHE SC: I see, but for now what is on page 32 to page 55 is covered by the invoices that are in this file? MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: Now in order to save time but still maintain the evidence I will just refer you – I would like you just to read you know that there is – item number one we have dealt with it, it is to demonstrate also for the Chairperson 10 item number one, the supplier is Sun International, it is the invoice we had looked at, then t h e r e ’ s t h e i n v o i c e n u m b e r, t h e d a t e o f t h e i n v o i c e a n d t h e i n v o i c e , y o u r i n v o i c e a d d r e s s e d t o J J Ve n t e r a n d t h e description is Sun International Hotel, the Palace and then the number and then the dates and then if the guest was J D Orin, and then the amount is R60 178,47. MR BLAKE: 49 cents yes. ADV NOTSHE SC: MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: 20 49 cents, is that correct? And the invoice is the one we went through. MR BLAKE: BT22804. ADV NOTSHE SC: Ye s , a n d t h e n t h e n e x t p e r s o n i s Katleho Mokonyane and there the supplier is in all the items it’s Budget Car and you have under the invoices invoice numbers and then the dates of the invoices and Page 210 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 t h e n t h e i n v o i c e i s a d d r e s s e d t o B O S A S A P t y o n J J Ve n t e r and there are a number of items and the total amount is R69 497,25, is that correct? MR BLAKE: 25 cents yes. ADV NOTSHE SC: Now Mr Blake on the – where the invoice is addressed to BOSASA Operations who paid for those invoices after you paid them MR BLAKE: BOSASA would collect all the invoices under B O S A S A a n d p a y u s m o n t h l y b y E F T. 10 ADV NOTSHE SC: MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: MR BLAKE: Yo u w e r e p a i d b y B O S A S A d i r e c t l y ? A n d t h e n o n e s f o r J J Ve n t e r ? J J Ve n t e r w a s a l s o l u m p e d t o g e t h e r i n months or two months or three months and paid cash. ADV NOTSHE SC: I see. And then below that you have the invoices for Mohamed Morad. Before that Chair can you go back to – do you know who is Katleho Mokonyane f o r w h o m t h e B O S A S A a n d J J Ve n t e r b o o k e d f o r ? MR BLAKE: 20 I r e m e m b e r t h e – m y, o n e o f t h e g i r l s i n f r o n t was saying that they desperately needed a type of a car for t h e M i n i s t e r ’ s d a u g h t e r, s o s h e m a n a g e d t o g e t a c a r through Budget Car Hire because none of the car hire c o m p a n i e s a c t u a l l y h a d t h a t c a r t h a t t h e y w e r e l o o k i n g f o r, so I guess they sort of knew it was important to get a car for this person because BOSASA was really wanting us to Page 211 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 find the right vehicle, ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then we saw when we were looking at the invoices themselves that there were the amounts of R517 and the amount of R287 were fines. MR BLAKE: Correct, they’re traffic fines, they would come through Budget Car Hire or the car hire company and o b v i o u s l y t h e Tr a f f i c D e p a r t m e n t f i n e t h e c a r h i r e c o m p a n y and then pass the bill onto us. ADV NOTSHE SC: 10 And then – but for those you say Mr Agrizzi paid cash for those. MR BLAKE: He paid cash for those ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: And they were not paid by the person to whom ...[intervenes] MR BLAKE: No, the cash, the cash would have been, if there was an invoice for it it would have been tallied and paid by Mr Agrizzi or Ms Agrizzi, cash. ADV NOTSHE SC: Now then the next person is Mohamed Morad, do you know who this person is? MR BLAKE: 20 N o t a c l u e , s o r r y. I reckon if I know or if I’ve met 30% of my passengers from various companies throughout the world that’s doing well, but often companies will ask us to book for individuals, we get a copy of their passports quite often and we would make reservations for them but we would never meet them. Yo u k n o w i t i s – w e w e r e – i n t h e e l e c t r o n i c a g e n o w Page 212 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 w e a r e n o t i n t h e o l d t r a v e l a g e n c y. Yo u k n o w w a l k i n , h a v e a cup of tea and discuss a cruise. It is, get me on an aeroplane, get me this hotel, get me that car you know it is. ADV NOTSHE SC: But in a situation like this where the b o o k i n g i s m a d e u n d e r t h e n a m e o f J J Ve n t e r. MR BLAKE: Right. ADV NOTSHE SC: Who would then give you the name of the passenger or the person from whom the – for whom the booking is made? 10 MR BLAKE: It would generally come from Mr Agrizzi or Ms Agrizzi and it would either be sms or phone through but we w o u l d h a v e c h e c k e d t h e s p e l l i n g v e r y c a r e f u l l y. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then there is the two bookings and the amount is R3 351.44 cents. MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: And the next item is for Dudu Myeni and co travellers. MR BLAKE: Right. ADV NOTSHE SC: 20 And these invoices – all the invoices s e e m t o h a v e b e e n m a d e b y M r J J Ve n t e r. W e r e m a d e – t h e i n v o i c e s w e r e m a d e t o J J Ve n t e r. MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: And the invoices on this spreadsheet starts from page 32 up to 33 with the total amount of R101 071 – R101 718,03. Page 213 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then when we look at – on page 32 when you look at the description it says Dudu Myeni and co travellers. And then there is a description of Sheraton H o t e l P TA a n d t h e n g u e s t s D u d u M y e n i , K a t h e r i n e D a w s o n and then on the same column is Dudu Myeni, Dudu Zelewene, Katherine Dawson, Sheraton Hotel. And you say these name would come from Mr Agrizzi – Mr or Ms Agrizzi? MR BLAKE: 10 Correct. T h e P TA s t a n d s f o r P r e t o r i a s o t h a t is the Sheraton Hotel Pretoria. A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e P TA ? MR BLAKE: Is Pretoria. ADV NOTSHE SC: Oh I see. And then over the page we see again there is Sheraton Hotel Pretoria Dudu Myeni, Katherine Dawson and in the following one which may explain other items it has got TIC like a ticket number – t h e r e i s a n u m b e r. I s t h a t a t i c k e t n u m b e r ? O n I t e m 3 . M R B L A K E : Ye s t h a t i s a t i c k e t n u m b e r. ADV NOTSHE SC: 20 And then passenger Katherine Dawson and then route T&B MQP Nelspruit. Is that the route Johannesburg to Nelspruit? MR BLAKE: Correct. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then there are a whole host of other items up to item 22. MR BLAKE: Correct. Page 214 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV NOTSHE SC: Chair I will not waste your time to refer to it but they are referred there by the witness. And then over the … CHAIRPERSON: I d o n o t re m e m b e r t h a t yo u a s k e d m e t o a d m i t h i s a ff i d a vi t . ADV NOTSHE SC: Chair I would – well I was hoping at the e n d o f – a f t e r h e h a s t e st i f i e d t o c o n f i r m t h e c o r r e ct n e s s o f t h e a ff i d a vi t . CHAIRPERSON: 10 L e t u s d o i t n o w. T h e a ff i d a vi t o f M r B ri a n D o u g l a s B l a ke d e p o se d t o o n – o n t h e 2 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 9 w i l l b e m a r k e d – a d m i t t e d a n d m a r k e d a s E xh i b i t T 1 8 ? ADV NOTSHE SC: Is Bundle. C H A I R P E R S O N : I s i t st i l l T 1 8 ? ADV NOTSHE SC: It is in Bundle D. CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o t h e E x h i b i t i s d i ff e r e n t f r o m t h e bundle. ADV NOTSHE SC: T18. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a T 1 8 . O k a y. A l ri g h t . A D V N O T S H E S C : To g e t h e r w i t h t h e a n n e x u r e s. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t o g e t h e r w i t h i t s a n n e x u r e s. O k a y. I t i s i m p o rt a n t t o a l s o m a r k o n i t s f a c e a t t h e t o p E xh i b i t T 1 8 . Ja s o t h a t i t i s k n o w n t h a t t h a t i s E x h i b i t T1 8 . ADV NOTSHE SC: At the top of? C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e t o p o f t h e p a g e – o f t h e f i r st p a g e o f t h e a ff i d a vi t . Page 215 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV NOTSHE SC: Oh I see. CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit T18. I think when – when it is done M s O l i vi e r c a n m a r k t h e o n e t h a t i s w i t h t h e w i t n e s s l a t e r o n . O k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: Now Mr Blake we were on page 33. MR BLAKE: Right. ADV NOTSHE SC: A n d t h e n t h e re i s t h e n t h e h e a d i n g o f Tr e v o r F o u ri e a t t h e l a st – l a st e n t r y o n p a g e 3 3 . MR BLAKE: Page 34. 10 ADV NOTSHE SC: No page 33. I t st a rt s o n p a g e 3 3 – a t the bottom. M R B L A K E : Tr e v o r F o u ri e t h e h e a d i n g y e s. ADV NOTSHE SC: Tr e v o r F o u ri e a n d t h e n t h e i n v o i c e s i n re l a t i n g t o Tr e v o r F o u ri e t h e y a re o n p a g e 3 4 a m I co rr e ct ? M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . ADV NOTSHE SC: And then there is again it is booked by J J Ve n t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y I – I a m a t p a g e 3 3 b u t w h e r e ? ADV NOTSHE SC: 20 At the bottom – at the foot of page 33 Chair will notice there is… M R B L A K E : I n b l u e C h a i r. ADV NOTSHE SC: An entry in blue on page 33. CHAIRPERSON: O h o ka y. We l l I t h i n k I w i l l w r i t e h e re b e ca u s e t h e r e st r e l a t i n g t o h i m ADV NOTSHE SC: Is on page 34. Page 216 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: I s o n t h e n e xt p a g e . Tr e v o r F o u r i e . Ye s o k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: M r B l a k e i f o n e g o e s t h r o u g h a l l t h e se – t h e sp r e a d s h e e t u p t o p a g e 5 5 o n e w i l l f o l l o w i t i s o n t h e blue it is the name of the person who was the – who the booking was made for and then the details of the booking follow that. And then at the end of that column will be then the amount, the value of the entire booking. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s c o r r e ct j a . 10 A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d a s y o u h a d sa i d p r e vi o u sl y a n d t h e n that is backed by the – by the invoices that are attached to y o u r a ff i d a vi t ? M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . ADV NOTSHE SC: Now on page 55. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o rr y d o y o u s a y 5 5 ? A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Can we go back to 35 before you go to 55? A l d e rm a n B l a k e i f yo u l o o k a t p a g e 3 5 y o u w i l l se e t h a t t h e r e i n t h e m i d d l e y o u h a v e g o t t h e n a m e C F ro l i c k, c a n yo u se e 20 that? MR BLAKE: Page 5? CHAIRPERSON: Page 35. ADV NOTSHE SC: 85. ADV NOTSHE SC: 35. MR BLAKE: 35. Page 217 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV NOTSHE SC: On the – let me – look on page 35 look o n t h e b l u e o n t h e [ i n d i st i n ct 0 0 : 5 4 : 8 ] . MR BLAKE: Page 75. ADV NOTSHE SC: 35 M R B L A K E : 3 5 a p o l o g y. 3 5 ri g h t . A D V N O T S H E S C : 3 5 ri g h t . M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s c a n yo u s e e t h e n a m e F r o l i c k – S C Frolick there? 10 M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u k n o w – w o u l d y o u kn o w w h a t t h e f u l l n a m e i s o r w o u l d y o u j u st k n o w C F r o l i c k i n t e r m s o f y o u r c o m p a n y w i t h so m e b o d y – w i t h a g u e st ? M R B L A K E : N o M r C h e e k y Wa t s o n t o l d m e h i s n a m e w a s M r C e d ri c F r o l i c k. C H A I R P E R S O N : M r C e d ri c F r o l i c k. MR BLAKE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s w h a t y o u w e re t o l d w h e n t h e y w e re booking? 20 M R B L A K E : W h e n t h e y w e r e b o o ki n g j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l ri g h t . MR BLAKE: It should appear on the hotel invoice as well. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. MR BLAKE: And … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t r e m e m b e r a n y o t h e r F r o l i c k t h a t Page 218 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 y o u m i g h t h a v e – i t i s j u st t h i s ? MR BLAKE: No he was quite… CHAIRPERSON: Is it only this one? M R B L A K E : H e w a s q u i t e t i e d u p w i t h t h e E a st e r n P r o vi n c e Rugby ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. Ye s. MR BLAKE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: N o w I s e e t h a t w h e n yo u s e e – l o o k u n d e r h i s n a m e t h e r e t h e r e w a s a b o o ki n g f o r h i m a t t h e C i t y L o d g e 10 O R Ta m b o O n l i n e C l u b f o r t h e p e r i o d f o r a c c o m m o d a t i o n f o r t h e p e ri o d 1 0 J u n e 2 0 1 0 t o 1 2 Ju n e 2 0 1 0 . A n d t h e n t h e n e xt b o o k i n g w a s o n – w a s a t C i t y L o d g e O R Ta m b o a n d g u e st t o Mr C Frolick then that – the accommodation then was for 21 A u g u st 2 0 1 0 t o 2 2 A u g u st 2 0 1 0 . And then – all these b o o k i n g a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n c o n n e ct e d w i t h ru g b y. The third one is for Frolick C on 10 December 2010 to 12 December 2010. look like that? A n d t h e n t h e n e xt o n e i s – o h w h y d o e s i t T h r e e w h i ch h a ve t h e s a m e d a t e . There is the third one is 10 December 2010 to 12 December 2010. 20 T h e n e xt o n e i s f o r t h e s a m e a c co m m o d a t i o n . T h e t h i rd o n e i s f o r t h e s a m e a c c o m m o d a t i o n . D o e s t h a t m e a n h e st a y e d c o n se c u t i v e l y o n t h o se d a y s – f o r t h o s e d a y s a n d i f – o r t h e r e w a s a n e xt e n si o n o r w h y – w h y d o y o u h a v e i t t h a t w a y there? MR BLAKE: I a m n o t s u r e C h a i r. We w o u l d h a v e t o c h e c k Page 219 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 that. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t y o u s e e w h a t I a m t a l ki n g a b o u t ? M R B L A K E : I s e e t h a t y e s. ADV NOTSHE SC: Chair would it help if we turn to page 11 4 ? C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 4 ? A D V N O T S H E S C : 11 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s. ADV NOTSHE SC: 10 T h e s e a r e t h e st a rt i n g f r o m 11 4 t h e se a r e t h e i n vo i c e s o f M r F r o l i c k a n d a m I c o rr e ct ? A l d e rm a n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V N O T S H E S C : S t a rt i n g f r o m 11 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : We l l t h e d a t e s a r e t h e s a m e . A n d I d o n o t know if the… A D V N O T S H E S C : L o o k a t w h a t t h e C h a i r i s r e f e r ri n g y o u t o is? CHAIRPERSON: The place is the same as well. A D V N O T S H E S C : O n p a g e – i t st a rt s o n p a g e 11 6 a n d 11 7 . A n d w h a t t h e C h a i r i s r e f e r ri n g t o i s t h e r e i s – t h e d a t e i s 2 3 20 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d t h e To w n L o d g e M r C F ro l i c k a n d a t t h e b o t t o m – i f y o u l o o k a t t h e d e s c ri p t i o n t h e d a t e i s t h e s a m e . M R B L A K E : I t c o u l d b e C h a i r. T h e re co u l d h a v e b e e n m o r e t h a n o n e ro o m b o o k e d i n h i s n a m e . T h a t i s w h y w e m u st g o b a c k a n d c h e c k t h e i n v o i c e f r o m t h e To w n L o d g e i n G e o r g e t o s e e w h y w e i n v o i c e d . B e c a u s e w e w o u l d i n vo i ce a g a i n s t Page 220 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 a n i n v o i c e f ro m t h e To w n L o d g e . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t c o u l d b e t h a t h e b o o k e d t w o r o o m s. M R B L A K E : Tw o o r t h r e e r o o m s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r t h r e e r o o m s o k a y. O k a y a l ri g h t . I t h i n k i t w o u l d b e g o o d i f t h a t cl a ri f i c a t i o n ca n b e o b t a i n e d . Okay a l ri g h t . O k a y t h a t i s w h a t I w a n t e d t o c h e c k a t – a t . B u t t h a t – ja that total, the total for him there at page 35 is R13 990.44. Okay I think we can continue. A D V N O T S H E S C : T h a n k yo u C h a i r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V N O T S H E S C : C h a i r t h e e vi d e n c e I h a v e l e d s o f a r w a s e i t h e r t o d e m o n s t ra t e h o w o n e ca n n e v e r g e t t h r o u g h t h e spreadsheet. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV NOTSHE SC: With your leave can I take the witness to page 55? CHAIRPERSON: Ja that is fine. A D V N O T S H E S C : A l d e rm a n c a n y o u g o t o p a g e 5 5 . M R B L A K E : P a g e 5 5 . O k a y. 20 A D V N O T S H E S C : P a g e 5 5 a n d a t t h e b o t t o m t h e l a st e n t r y t h e r e i s t h e t o t a l a m o u n t t h a t w a s b o o k e d f o r – b y J J Ve n t e r of BOSASA and that amount if I sa y it amounts to R 1 2 3 4 4 8 1 . 11 i s t h a t c o r re ct ? M R B L A K E : T h a t i s c o rr e ct . B u t C h a i r m u st a l s o r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e J J Ve n t e r a c c o u n t – j a t h e C h a i r t h e J J Ve n t e r Page 221 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 a c c o u n t A g ri z z i a c t u a l l y t h o u g h t t h a t t h a t w a s h i s a c c o u n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R B L A K E : S o a l o t o f h i s p ri va t e st u ff . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR BLAKE: S o o v e r t h e p e r i o d i t w a s cl o s e r t o R 4 m i l l i o n than R1.2 million. But a lot of it was you know family and… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR BLAKE: Not … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. 10 M R B L A K E : B u t t h e r e c o u l d b e st u ff t h a t w e m i s s e d h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. ADV NOTSHE SC: The R1.2 is in relation to people who are n o t M r A g ri z zi ’s f a m i l y ? M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . ADV NOTSHE SC: And these people – the people who are a p p e a ri n g o n t h e d e s c ri p t i o n o f t h e i n v o i c e d i d n o t p a y f o r t h i s b u t M r A g ri z zi o f B O S A S A p a i d f o r i t ? M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . O k a y j a . ADV NOTSHE SC: 20 Now there is also an item that I would l i k e y o u t o t e l l t h e co m m i s si o n a b o u t i t . M r A g ri z z i i n h i s st a t e m e n t h e g a v e e vi d e n c e t o t h e e ff e ct t h a t w h e n t h e re w e re p r o b l e m s h e c a m e t o y o u r c o m p a n y a n d t h e n – y o u d e a l w i t h i t o n p a g e 2 1 o f y o u r st a t e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: What page? A D V N O T S H E S C : P a g e 2 1 C h a i r. Page 222 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR BLAKE: Page 21. C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 1 o k a y. Ja c o n t i n u e . ADV NOTSHE SC: And you say there that you heard in the n e w s t h a t M r A g r i z zi s a y s t h a t h e c a m e t o y o u r c o m p a n y a n d took five co m p u t e r s of B l a ke s Tr a v e l and b u ri e d them s o m e w h e re . M R B L A K E : Ye s C h a i r t h a t h a d m e w o r ri e d b e c a u s e I c o u l d not figure out how he could do that. Fi r st o f a l l w e h a ve p r o v e n t h a t i t i s n o n e o f t h e e vi d e n c e . 10 a . We st i l l h a v e t h e e vi d e n c e o n o u r c o m p u t e r s. b . I f yo u d i d t a k e a t ra v e l a g e n t s c o m p u t e r y o u h a ve t o re p r o g r a m i t w i t h c e rt a i n i t e m s a n d y o u h a ve t o h a v e a c e rt a i n I P a d d r e s s a n d y o u h a v e t o h a v e a n e m a i l a d d r e s s a n d i t j u s t – i t i s j u st n o n se n s e . T h e r e i s n o w a y t h a t t h a t c o u l d h a ve h a p p e n e d . I j u st c a n n o t – e v e n m y I T e xp e rt m a d e a st a t e m e n t t o s a y t h a t t h a t i s i m p o s si b l e . CHAIRPERSON: I s i t p o s si b l e t h a t c e rt a i n c o m p u t e r s w e r e t a k e n a n d w e r e b u ri e d so m e w h e r e , d e st r o y e d a n d b u ri e d 20 s o m e w h e re but that did not n e c e s s a ri l y mean i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t w a s i n t h e c o m p u t e r s w a s l o st . all that Yo u st i l l could get the information technologically? M R B L A K E : C h a i r I t h i n k M r A g r i z z i m u st – t h a t w a s n o t h i s o n l y st a t e m e n t . I h e a r d h e a l s o b u ri e d c o m p u t e r s i n P o rt E l i za b e t h a n d a c o u p l e o f o t h e r s o r t o f t h i n g s t o o so I t h i n k Page 223 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 he forgot. I think he did not tick the box because he – he m i g h t h a ve b u ri e d t h e B O S A S A c o m p u t e r s t h e r e b e c a u s e I know they were changing invoices a f t e r w a rd s. But no. c o m p u t e r s. T h e y ca n g o b a c k. from what I hear Yo u a re w e l c o m e t o h a v e a l o o k a t m y They can check them. n o n e o f m y st a ff re m e m b e r e v e r g e t t i n g n e w c o m p u t e r s. I – I m e a n su r e l y, t h e y w o u l d k n o w i f t h e y g o t a n e w c o m p u t e r. I t i s j u st h i g h l y, h i g h l y u n l i k e l y. And welcome to come and c h e c k a n d p r o ve i t . A n d t h e n w h y h a v e I g o t a l l m y i n v o i c e s ? 10 H e co u l d h a ve t a k e n m y se r v e r i f h e w a n t e d t o d e st r o y e vi d e n c e . J a . CHAIRPERSON: A g ri z zi ? S o t h a t s h o u l d b e t a k e n f u rt h e r w i t h M r T h a t s h o u l d b e p u r s u e d w i t h M r A g ri z zi t o t e l l m e what … A D V N O T S H E S C : H i s e vi d e n c e i s re f u t e d b y … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d h e a r w h a t h e h a s t o s a y. J a . M R B L A K E : O h t h a n k s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. M R B L A K E : I t h i n k h e j u st f o r g o t t o t i c k t h e b o x. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR BLAKE: Yo u k n o w. H e w a s t h i s a n d t h a t a n d d e st r o y t h i s a n d d o t h i s a n d d o t h i s b u t yo u k n o w w h e n – t h e y r a i d e d BOSASA in 2006 they did not come to me. o f B O S A S A i n f o rm a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 224 of 239 But they took all 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR BLAKE: They did not come to me. Only in 2014. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR BLAKE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: N o w o n p a g e 1 5 o f yo u r – o f t h e re c o r d a n d o f y o u r st a t e m e n t y o u s o rt o f d e a l w i t h t h e i s s u e t h a t was raised by the Chair… CHAIRPERSON: On what page? ADV NOTSHE SC: Page 15. 10 CHAIRPERSON: 1 5 o k a y. We l l b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d , I t h i n k I h a ve g o t t o a s k t h i s. to page 50 f re q u e n t l y. there A l d e rm a n B l a k e , I k n o w f r o m p a g e 4 4 are... the name L Mti appears ve r y I mean, Mr L Mti from... ja, Mr L... or Mr R Mti, h e m u st b e a p p e a ri n g , I a m t a ki n g a g u e s s, m o r e t h a n t w e n t y t i m e s. A D V N O T S H E S C : P e r h a p s . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] CHAIRPERSON: W h a t d o e s. . . w h a t m u st I m a ke o f t h a t ? T h a t h e w a s t r a v e l l i n g a l o t u n d e r t h e B O S A S A a c co u n t ? MR BLAKE: 20 F r o m w h a t I u n d e r st a n d C h a i r, M r Mt i a s M r R i c h a r d M t i w h i c h a s M r A g ri z zi r e f e r r e d t o h i m , i s a ct u a l l y M r D e s m o n d L i n d a Mt i w h i c h w a s r e f e r r e d t o m e . P l u s h i s h i st o r y w a s g i v e n t o m e b y t h e l i e u t e n a n t c o l o n e l a n d i t i s q u i t e i n t e r e st i n g . B u t y e s, v e r y m u c h Mr A g ri z zi w o u l d f i n d m e w i t h t h e f a m i l y i n t h e P o rt E l i z a b e t h , t h e f l i g h t s t o P o rt E l i za b e t h , t h e c a r h i re . Page 225 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: It say twenty t i m e s. That might be . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V N O T S H E S C : [ I n d i st i n ct ] CHAIRPERSON: . . . a n u n d e re st i m a t i o n . It might even be f i f t y t i m e s. I a m n o t su r e i t i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V N O T S H E S C : C h a i r, i t g o e s t o a 1 3 8 t i m e s. CHAIRPERSON: H’m? A D V N O T S H E S C : 1 3 8 t i m e s. CHAIRPERSON: It appears 138 times? 10 A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s, C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : [ I n d i st i n ct ] . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e t o t a l a m o u n t . A m I c o rr e ct , t h e t o t a l amount is R 786 867,32. CHAIRPERSON: Is that what...? ADV NOTSHE SC: On page 51. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, w h a t yo u p a i d i n r e g a r d t o M r Mt i ? MR BLAKE: It is probably more. CHAIRPERSON: It is probably more? M R B L A K E : B e c a u se t h e s e a r e . . . t h e se a r e o n l y f r o m 2 0 1 5 . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Oh, M R B L A K E : I a m n o t s u r e i f t h e re i s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, t h e r e m a y b e a l o t o r m o r e b e f o re that. M R B L A K E : J a , b u t a t l e a st t h a t a m o u n t , j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I t h i n k h e l e f t C o rr e ct i o n a l S e r v i c e s i f I Page 226 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 re c a l l the e vi d e n c e of Mr A g ri z zi co r re ct l y. He left C o rr e ct i o n a l S e r v i c e s a r o u n d 2 0 0 7 / 2 0 0 8 o r 2 0 0 6 o r t h e r e about. But of course, I think the... it may well be that the re l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n B O S A S A a n d h i m co n t i n u e d . M R B L A K E : I t h i n k M r Wa t s o n ’s . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, b y m i st e r. . . j a . MR BLAKE: . . . re l a t i o n s h i p i s q u i t e w e l l d e t e r m i n e d b y L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l S m i t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t . M r N o t s h e . 10 A D V N O T S H E S C : S o w h i l st yo u a r e o n t h a t C h a i r, i t i s. . . o n p a g e 4 4 . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] , y o u w i l l se e t h e r e i t i s. . . t h e h e a d i n g i s M r L i n d a Mt i a n d M s T N j a n a . M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . A D V N O T S H E S C : I s t h a t ri g h t ? M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct , j a . ADV NOTSHE SC: And then if you turn to page... or the re a s o n . . . i s t h a t . . . i s t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u m e n t i o n t h o s e t o g e t h e r, w e r e t h e y t r a v e l l i n g t o g e t h e r n o w ? MR BLAKE: 20 N o , M s N j a n a i s a ct u a l l y h i s w i f e b u t u n d e r c u st o m . M r N j a n a w a s a d vi s e d t o m e t o b e a S I TA o ff i c e r, a s w e l l a s, w o r ki n g f o r g o v e rn m e n t . I t h i n k t h e n a m e w a s st i l l i n t h e p a s s p o rt a s N j a n a . T h a t i s w h y w e . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , yo u u s e d i t . M R B L A K E : Ye s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 227 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 ADV NOTSHE SC: And then on page 51, you then see again M s N j a n a st a n d i n g a l o n e . A n d t h e n t h o s e b o o ki n g s, t h e r e are about 36 of them, they amount to R 172 962,52 on page 53. CHAIRPERSON: What is that total? Page 63? A D V N O T S H E S C : N o , f i v e t h r e e C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : F i ve t h r e e ? A D V N O T S H E S C : Fi v e t h r e e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. 10 A D V N O T S H E S C : I t i s R 1 7 2 9 6 2 , 5 2 . A m I co r re ct ? C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R B L A K E : Ye s, w e l l , M s T N j a n a . ADV NOTSHE SC: Ms T Njana, yes. MR BLAKE: Ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then again, you see the name of Mr L i n d a M t i j u st b e l o w t h a t . Mt i a n d M s T N j a n a . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] Then their expense goes over the page to page 54 and the a m o u n t t h e r e i s R 1 7 1 9 9 2 , 0 6 . D o y o u co n f i rm t h a t ? M R B L A K E : J a , R 1 7 1 9 9 2 , 0 6 . C o rr e ct . 20 CHAIRPERSON: But as you say it could be more? MR BLAKE: It could be. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR BLAKE: It could be. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: Now if we go back Chair to the... on Page 228 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 page 15, one five. issue. I j u st n e e d y o u t o cl a r i f y. T h e re i s a n I t w a s r a i s e d b y t h e C h a i rp e r s o n r e g a r d i n g t h e t ra v e l l i n g o f M r F r o l i c k. M R B L A K E : Ye s. ADV NOTSHE SC: Yo u s a y t h e r e i n yo u r st a t e m e n t t h a t t h e f i r st t w o i n v o i c e s w e re p a i d b y E a s t e r n C a p e R u g b y b u t yo u s a y, yo u a r e n o t a w a re o f t h e i n t e r n a l a rr a n g e m e n t s b e t w e e n t h e m a n d M r F r o l i c k. M R B L A K E : T h e r e i s a n e m a i l f u rt h e r o n e w h i ch I t h i n k s o rt 10 o f s a y s t h a t M r Wa t s o n d i d n o t w a n t E a st e r n P r o vi n c e R u g b y t o p a y f o r i t b u t f o r M r A g ri z zi t o p a y f o r i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u st r e p e a t t h a t ? W h o p a i d f o r M r F ro l i c k? M R B L A K E : O ri g i n a l l y i t w a s E a st e rn P r o vi n c e R u g b y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. MR BLAKE: I think the invoice was made out to them. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR BLAKE: B u t f u rt h e r d o w n t h e l i n e , t h e r e i s a n e m a i l f ro m M r Wa t s o n a s ki n g M r A g ri z zi t o p a y f o r i t . CHAIRPERSON: Is the email in this bundle. 20 M R B L A K E : I t h i n k i t i s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: Can you look at page 14? C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e f o u r? A D V N O T S H E S C : O n e f o u r. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s i t st a rt s o m e w h e r e ? Page 229 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s, t h e e m a i l o n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 . 6 . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V N O T S H E S C : I s t h a t w h a t y o u a r e t a l ki n g a b o u t n o w ? MR BLAKE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: W h e r e d o e s i t s t a rt ? st a rt s f i r st , t h e d o c u m e n t . Let us go where it Th e d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 1 3 . It looks like it is a continuation of a document, does it not? ADV NOTSHE SC: I t i s o n p a g e 1 4 C h a i r, h e i s d i s c u s si n g I n v o i ce 2 7 2 5 5 . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s, b u t w h a t I w a n t i s, w h e r e d o e s t h i s d o cu m e n t b e g i n ? A D V N O T S H E S C : T h e d o c u m e n t w e a r e l o o ki n g a t ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V N O T S H E S C : T h i s i s h i s a ff i d a vi t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , t h i s i s p a r t o f h i s a ff i d a vi t . O h , o k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: I t i s o n p a g e . . . . j a , i t st a rt s o n p a g e 1 , y e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d w h a t p a ra g r a p h ? ADV NOTSHE SC: 20 N o w, i t i s o n p a r a g r a p h , p a g e 1 4 , p a r a g ra p h . . . H e , h e r e , h e i s d i s c u s si n g I n v o i c e 2 7 2 5 5 a n d t h e n h e e x p l a i n s o n p a g e . . . n o , o n p a r a g ra p h 2 8 . 6 . T h e n h e s a y s: “I n r e sp e ct o f I n v o i c e 2 7 2 5 5 , I h a v e p r o vi d e d t h e C o m m i s si o n w i t h t h e e m a i l c o rr e s p o n d e n c e w h i c h i s a t t a c h e d a s B B 111 . S e v e n e xt r a ct s f r o m t h e e m a i l Page 230 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 a r e a s f o l l o w s. ” F r o m h e re a g a i n , S m i t se n t 1 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , 0 5 : 11 p . m . t o A n g e l o A g ri z zi s u b j e ct : “ F o r w a r d i n v o i c e f ro m S h o p B l a k e ’s Tr a v e l (P t y ) L t d . Attachments to be emailed pdf...” T h e n i n “i n v e rt e d c o m m a s ”: “A n g e l o , h e t o l d m e t h a t t h i s i n v o i c e m u st a l s o b e p a i d b y B O S A S A . P l e a s e a d vi s e . . . [ i n d i s t i n ct ] I s t h a t t h e i n vo i c e . . . t h e e m a i l t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g 10 about? MR BLAKE: Ja, that was the email where Cheeky was a s ki n g t h o s e i n vo i c e s t o b e p a i d b y B O S A S A . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h o i s b e i n g re f e rr e d t o t h e r e as Cheeky or would you not know? M R B L A K E : C h e e k y Wa t s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : C h e e k y Wa t so n ? MR BLAKE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Ja , h e w a s. . . h e i s M r G a v i n Wa t s o n ’s b r o t h e r. 20 M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R B L A K E : F r o m t h e E a st e rn C a p e R u g b y. CHAIRPERSON: O ka y s o t h i s e m a i l w a s f r o m M r S m i t w h o w a s p a rt o f B O S A S A a d d re s s e d t o M r A g ri z zi a n d s a yi n g t h a t . . . t e l l i n g M r A g r i z zi t h a t M r C h e e k y Wa t s o n h a d t o l d h i m Page 231 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 that the invoice should be paid for by BOSASA. That is what i t s a y s, ri g h t ? M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV NOTSHE SC: And then did BOSASA pay the invoice? Yo u w i l l n o t . . . MR BLAKE: I a m n o t s u re . Yo u k n o w, w e a r e t a l ki n g 2 0 1 0 . I w o u l d p r e s u m e t h a t w e w o u l d h a ve t o r e - i n v o i c e i t a n d c h a n g e t h e i n vo i c e . 10 c a s h w a s g i ve n S o i t i s. . . o r i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n t h a t f o r t h a t i n v o i c e a n d j u st s q u a re i t o ff . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d n o w. . . a n d t h e n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y n o t b e a b l e t o s a y a n yt h i n g a b o u t t h i s. I u n d e r st o o d , I t h i n k f ro m e i t h e r M r F r o l i c k ’s a ff i d a vi t o r f ro m s o m e o n e e l s e ’s a ff i d a vi t i n t h i s C o m m i s s i o n t h a t s o m e o f t h e t ri p s t h a t w e re b e i n g s a i d t o h a v e b e e n p a i d f o r b y B O S A S A i n r e s p e ct o f M r Fr o l i c k i n G a u t e n g w e r e f o r h i m w h e n h e c a m e t o G a u t e n g t o a t t e n d ru g b y. S o b u t I s e e t h a t here... it looks in 2010. 20 It looks like it was for the Soccer Wo rl d C u p . M R B L A K E : I t w a s f o r t h e Wo r l d C u p . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s f o r t h e S o c c e r Wo rl d C u p ? MR BLAKE: Ja , c o r r e ct . I n f a ct , t h e r e i s m o r e d o c u m e n t s t h a t M r N i x o n a s k e d m e f o r w h i c h i s i n v e st i g a t i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , i s t h a t s o ? S o c o u l d w e h a ve t h a t . Page 232 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 M R B L A K E : I h a v e s e n t i t t o h i m a l r e a d y. CHAIRPERSON: J a , i s t h a t o n e o f t h e i n ve st i g a t o r s M r Notshe? A D V N O T S H E S C : M r N i x o n i s o n e o f t h e o n e i n v e st i g a t o r s, y e s. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , h e i s l o o ki n g i n t o t h a t ? A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s, o k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l ri g h t . ADV NOTSHE SC: 10 This is Chair on... when there was a follow up on the statement of Mr Frolick about the travelling . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. A D V N O T S H E S C : . . . t o P o rt E l i z a b e t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s, y e s. A D V N O T S H E S C : I t i s t h e f o l l o w u p . Th a t e vi d e n c e w i l l b e p r e s e n t e d b e f o r e M r F r o l i c k t e st i f i e s. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. No, no, no. That is fine. Can we a l s o c h e c k w h e t h e r t h e re m i g h t b e a n y c h a n c e t h a t yo u r re c o r d s c o u l d st i l l h a v e w h a t e ve r b o o k i n g s m a y h a v e b e e n 20 m a d e f o r M r A g ri z zi . I do not know whether that was in 2010 when he said he t ra v e l l e d t o P o rt E l i z a b e t h t o m e e t w i t h o n e o f M r G a vi n Wa t s o n ’s b r o t h e r s a n d M r F ro l i c k. If i t i s 2 0 1 0 , y o u r r e c o r d s c o u l d st i l l h a v e t h a t . MR BLAKE: Ye s , w e w o u l d h a v e h a d i n v o i c e s t o i t . Page 233 of 239 I did 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 note that in 2010 b e c a u se it was the Wo rl d Cup . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , yo u w o u l d st i l l h a ve t h e m . MR BLAKE: There are invoices but it might not be very much. CHAIRPERSON: H’m? MR BLAKE: T h e r e w a s n o t a l o t o f a ct i vi t y i n 2 0 1 0 w i t h BOSASA. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. 10 MR BLAKE: B u t a l o t o f i t w a s d o n e w i t h F I FA a n d I w i l l h a ve r e c o r d s. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t h a ve ? M R B L A K E : I j u s t h a v e t o . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i l l h a ve r e c o rd s. MR BLAKE: ...check and see if they were done with us or FI FA p a i d f o r t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. MR BLAKE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: 20 I t h i n k a n d t h e i n v e st i g a t o r s. . . Mr N o t s h e , m a y b e y o u a r e w o r k i n g o n t h i s. T h a t t h e t ri p t h a t m a y b e d i s p u t e d t h a t M r A g ri z zi t a l k e d a b o u t w h e n h e s a i d h e w e n t t o . . . [ i n t e r ve n e s] A D V N O T S H E S C : P o rt E l i za b e t h . CHAIRPERSON: . . . P o rt E l i z a b e t h a n d m e t w i t h . . . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r M r C h e e k y Wa t so n o r . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] Page 234 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 A D V N O T S H E S C : I t i s M r W i l l e m S w a rt s. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , W i l l e m S w a rt a n d . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] A D V N O T S H E S C : W i l l e m S w a rt s. C H A I R P E R S O N : . . . M r F r o l i c k. J a . ADV NOTSHE SC: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A l ri g h t . Th a n k y o u . A D V N O T S H E S C : [ I n d i st i n ct ] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u m a y c o n t i n u e . A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s. A n d o n p a g e 1 6 o f y o u r st a t e m e n t , 10 you deal with the booking of Mr Syvion Dlamini. On page 16. M R B L A K E : Ye s. A D V N O T S H E S C : D o y o u k n o w w h o M r D l a m i n i i s. M R B L A K E : Ye s, I h a v e m e t h i m ? ADV NOTSHE SC: Who is he? M R B L A K E : H e s t a y s i n L o c k C r e s c e n t . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] I t h i n k, n u m b e r 8 o r cl o s e b y t h e r e . H e w a s a r e g u l a r f r o m B O S A S A . A D V N O T S H E S C : I se e . A n d I s e e t h e re i s a b o o ki n g h e re b u t a l s o , t h e i n v o i c e w a s se n t t o J J Ve n t e r. M R B L A K E : C o r r e ct . S o o n e o f t h e b o o ki n g s t h a t w e r e s o rt 20 o f k e p t h u sh - h u s h w e re J J Ve n t e r b o o ki n g s. They were a l w a y s b o o ki n g s t h a t w e r e n o t o n t h e B O S A S A a c co u n t . A D V N O T S H E S C : I s e e . A n d p a i d f o r b y. . . M R B L A K E : B y M r A g r i z zi . ADV NOTSHE SC: M r A g ri z zi . Now on page 17 of your st a t e m e n t , t h e n y o u h a v e g o t a w h o l e l i st o f p e o p l e a n d y o u Page 235 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 s a y t h i s i s s o m e o f t h e i n d i vi d u a l s u n d e r t h e m , o t h e r t h a n the ones you have t e st i f i e d about and other than Mr G i l l i n g h a m a n d M r Mt i a n d t h e n a w h o l e l i st o f t h e m a b o u t 1 5 of those. M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . T h e r e i s 1 6 p e o p l e t h a t a p p e a r o n t h e J J Ve n t e r a c c o u n t . A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s. CHAIRPERSON: S o j u st t o g o b a c k t o M r F ro l i c k . I se e f ro m y o u r a ff i d a vi t t h a t s o m e p a y m e n t s. . . p a y m e n t f o r s o m e 10 o f h i s t r a v e l a r r a n g e m e n t s m a d e t h r o u g h B l a ke ’s Tr a v e l w e r e p a i d f o r b y t h e E a st e r n C a p e R u g b y U n i o n . A n d I s e e t h a t o n s o m e st a g e , h e a p p a r e n t l y d e p o s e d o r . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] c h e c k h i m s e l f f o r s o m e b o d y t h a t I t h i n k h e m a y h a ve b e e n w i t h . [ l a u g h s] MR BLAKE: The notion or one of the lady rugby players of t h e E a st e r n P ro v i n c e , y o u k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s, y e s. MR BLAKE: He paid for her ticket, ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o so m e p a y m e n t s w e r e o ri g i n a l l y m a d e b y 20 t h e E a st e r n C a p e R u g b y O n i o n . . . [ i n t e r v e n e s] M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . CHAIRPERSON: And then but later on, BOSASA paid for some? M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A l ri g h t . F r o m t h e t o p o f yo u r h e a d , Page 236 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y w h e t h e r t h e r e m a n y t h a t w e re p a i d f o r b y BOSASA or you are not able to say it? MR BLAKE: I t h i n k, M r D a n i e l Wa t s o n a n d C h e e k y Wa t s o n , h e w o u l d g e t h i s w a y w i t h t h e p a y m e n t s a l t h o u g h M r A g ri z zi was not very happy about it. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s. M R B L A K E : O r i t w o u l d c o m e f r o m h i s a c co u n t s. [ l a u g h s] C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] O k a y. MR BLAKE: 10 B u t A g ri z zi w o u l d p r o b a b l y b e a b l e t o v e r i f y i t more than... CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR BLAKE: I w o u l d h a v e t o g o b a c k a n d t ri p l e c h e c k m y books on that, ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o , t h a t i s f i n e . M r N o t s h e . A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d t h e n t h e r e st o f t h e a ff i d a vi t , i t t h e n deals with your i n t e r a ct i o n with the b o o ki n g s of Mr G i l l i n g h a m a n d M r Mt i a n d t h o s e a r e a l s o c o ve r e d b y t h e invoices that are attached and they are also on the spread s h e e t . A m I c o rr e ct ? 20 M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . ADV NOTSHE SC: Insofar as Mr Gillingham, it is on page 19, you deal with the table that deals with Mr Gillingham t h e r e . I s t h a t c o r r e ct ? M R B L A K E : P a g e 1 9 , M r G i l l i n g h a m . C o r re ct . ADV NOTSHE SC: Page 19. Page 237 of 239 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 MR BLAKE: Ja. ADV NOTSHE SC: Is that the table that deals with travelling bookings of Mr Gillingham? M R B L A K E : C o rr e ct . A D V N O T S H E S C : A n d n o w w h o b o o ke d f o r M r G i l l i n g h a m ? MR BLAKE: M r A g ri z zi w o u l d h a v e b o o ke d f o r t h e m . I do s e e o n e p a ym e n t w a s p a i d b y M r M a n s e l l o r n o t . . . t w o p a ym e n t s w e r e p a i d b y M r M a n s e l l a n d o t h e r s w e r e p a i d b y M r A g r i z zi . 10 ADV NOTSHE SC: D i d h e r e c e i v e a n y p a y m e n t f ro m . . . d i re ct l y f r o m M r G i l l i n g h a m ? M R B L A K E : N o . O k a y, w a i t . L e t m e c h e c k. ADV NOTSHE SC: C h a i r, e x ce p t f o r t h e i n v e st i g a t i o n s t h a t C h a i r h a s i n d i c a t e d , t h a t i s t h e e vi d e n ce o f t h e w i t n e s s. MR BLAKE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k yo u h a v e c o ve r e d t h e i m p o rt a n t p a rt s. A D V N O T S H E S C : Ye s. The 20 people that I C h a i r, a n d a l s o j u st f o r t h e re c o r d . mentioned that are a ff e ct e d by the e vi d e n c e , t h e y w e r e g i ve n t h e w h a t w e t e rm t h e R u l e 3 . 3 . N o t i c e s i n r e s p e ct o f t h e w i t n e s s o f t h i s w i t n e s s. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, o k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h A B l a ke for give coming to e vi d e n ce and C o m m i s si o n . M R B L A K E : Ye s. Page 238 of 239 for a s si st u s, the 29 JULY 2020 – DAY 240 CHAIRPERSON: We a p p r e ci a t e i t v e r y m u c h . We m a y a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k i f t h e re i s a n e e d b u t w e w i l l n o t b o t h e r y o u i f w e h a v e g o t e v e r yt h i n g . B u t f r o m w h a t t h e q u e ri e s a r e r a i s e d , I t h i n k p r o b a b l y t h e C o m m i s si o n ’s i n v e st i g a t o r s w i l l st i l l b e i n t o u ch w i t h yo u . B u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r co m i n g t o g i v e e v i d e n ce . O t h e r w i s e , y o u a r e e x cu s e d . A n d o n ce a g a i n , t h a n k y o u f o r b e i n g p r e p a r e d t o w a i t f o r the whole day but thank you very much. 10 MR BLAKE: T h a n k s. C h a i r, w e h a v e b e e n w a i t i n g f o r si x y e a r s t o g e t t h i s t h i n g s o rt e d o u t . [ l a u g h s] C H A I R P E R S O N : [ l a u g h s] N o , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . M R B L A K E : B u t t h a t i s h o w w e c o u l d . . . [ i n d i st i n ct ] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s. No, that is fine. I think we will a d j o u r n t h e n f o r t h e d a y. To m o r r o w I h a v e t w o o r s o witnesses at So ten o ’ cl o c k. but for the a d j o u r n e d . We a d j o u r n . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 3 0 J U LY 2 0 2 0 Page 239 of 239 day we are