C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 29 AUGUST 2019 D AY 1 5 2 20 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 PROCEEDINGS ON 29 AUGUST 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Mr Natasen. Are we ready>? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e r e w e r e a f e w p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c ts ju s t t o d e a l w i t h a t th e o u ts e t i f I m a y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e fi r s t o f t h o s e r e l a t e t o t h e a p p l ic a t i o n t h a t M r N a t a s e n m a d e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M s Tl a ts a n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e la s t h e a r i n g o f M r N a t a s e n ’s e v i d e n c e t h e r e w a s a n o p p o r t u n i ty a ff o r d e d t o h i m t o s u p p le m e n t t h a t a p p li c a t i o n in o r d e r t o s e t o u t th e g r o u n d s o n w h ic h h e r e v i d e n c e w a s d is p u te d . I t h a s b e e n s u p p l e m e n te d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : place 20 before you th e n A n d s o C h a ir i t i s a p p r o p r ia t e fo r m e t o j u s t the s u p p le m e n t e d version of the cross- e x a m in a ti o n a p p l ic a ti o n . I f I m a y b e g l e a v e t o h a n d t h a t u p ? CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e s e c o n d p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c t C h a ir is y o u w i ll r e c a l l t h e r e w a s a c o n fi d e n t i a li t y r e g i m e s o t o s p e a k t h a t w e e n t e r e d in t o a t t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f M r N a ta s e n ’s e v i d e n c e l a s t ti m e a n d t h a t w a s [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ]. Page 2 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b u t [i n te r v e n ti o n ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l l e t m e i f I m a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e i f I m a y j u s t [i n te r v e n ti o n ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Record what was ruled there. M r N a ta s e n r a i s e d t h e c o n c e r n th a t t h e r e i s a n u m b e r o f h is b a n k i n g i n f o r m a ti o n a n d o t h e r d o c u m e n ts t h a t h a d b e e n s u p p l i e d t o t h e c o m m is s i o n n o t a ll o f w h ic h w o u ld b e r e l e v a n t to t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n s a n d m a n d a te o f t h e 10 c o m m i s s io n . S o C h a ir y o u g a v e a r u li n g a t t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f l a s t p r o c e e d i n g s th a t a p r o c e s s w o u ld b e a d o p t e d w h e r e b y i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e w h e r e r e f e r e n c e is m a d e to a p a g e o f s u c h a d o c u m e n t t h a t w o u l d b e h i g h li g h te d a n d t h e n b e f o r e i t w a s p u t o n t h e w e b s i t e o f t h e c o m m is s i o n a f t e r M r N a t a s e n ’s e v i d e n c e is c o n c lu d e d th e r e s t o f the page would be blacked out so c o n fi d e n ti a li ty a n d p r i v a c y i n t e r e s ts . t h a t w e w o u l d p r o t e c t th e I o n ly r a is e i t n o w b e c a u s e th a t was a ruling about Wednesday many weeks ago. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d t h e n s e c o n d ly t h e r e h a v e b e e n f u r th e r d o c u m e n ts s u p p l ie d s i n c e M r N a ta s e n ’s l a s t e v i d e n c e a n d s o i t is m y p r o p o s a l t h a t w e s i m p ly e x te n d t h e c o n f id e n t i a l it y r e g i m e to a l l t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t w e tr a v e r s e to d a y. O n t h e la s t o c c a s io n C h a ir w e h e a r d h i s e v i d e n c e o n a Fr i d a y a n d y o u r u l e d th a t u n t il t h e f o l lo w i n g W e d n e s d a y it w o u ld n o t b e p la c e d o n th e w e b s i te a n d s o my p r o p o s a l w o u ld b e th a t w e d o a s i m i la r t h i n g . W e s a y a f t e r t h r e e w o r k in g d a y s Page 3 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 fr o m t o d a y it m a y o n l y t h e n b e p l a c e d o n t h e w e b s i t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t t h i n k th e r e w il l b e p r o b le m w i t h t h a t. D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r M r N a t a s e n ’s l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e h a s a n y o b je c ti o n t o t h a t ? I s t h a t s o m e t h in g th a t h a s b e e n a g r e e d ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I c e r t a i n l y r a is e d w i t h h i m t h a t I w o u l d a d d r e s s it w i t h y o u t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M y s p e c i fi c p r o p o s a l o f th e t h r e e d a y s I d id n o t d is c u s s w i t h h i m . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h e is o f c o u r s e fr e e to i n d ic a te i f h e h a s a n y d i ffic u lt y w i th i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y le t m e h e a r if h e h a s a n y t h i n g t o s a y ? A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : M o r n in g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: N ic e to s e e y o u a g a in . C H A I R P E R S O N : N ic e t o s e e y o u . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I h a v e n o o b j e c ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n o o b j e c ti o n ? 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . T h e r u l in g t o w h ic h y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d t h a t I m a d e w i ll t h e r e f o r e a p p ly t o th e d o c u m e n ts t o w h ic h y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d a n d th e t h r e e d a y s y o u p r o p o s e d w o u ld b e a p p l ic a b l e to it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e b t e d C h a ir th a n k y o u . Page 4 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e t h i r d a s p e c t j u s t a t t h e o u t s e t C h a i r is t h a t t h e le g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s f o r M r N a t a s e n h a v e e n g a g e d w i th t h e c o m m i s s io n i n g c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o i n d ic a t e t h a t t h e y w o u l d li k e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e - e x a m i n e M r N a ta s e n . I t h a s b e e n t h e p r o p o s a l fr o m t h e l e g a l t e a m t o t h e m t h a t t h a t t a k e p l a c e i m m e d ia t e l y a ft e r t h e q u e s t io n in g o f M r N a t a s e n c o n c l u d e s t o d a y. W e a ls o in a d v a n c e o f t o d a y i n d ic a te d t o M r N a ta s e n ’s l a w y e r s t h a t w e w o u l d b e h a p p y i f n e c e s s a r y t o e x t e n d b e y o n d f o u r o ’c lo c k t o d a y s o t h a t w e c o u ld w it h 10 y o u r l e a v e C h a ir i f i t b e c o m e s n e c e s s a r y c o m p le t e t h e e v id e n c e t o d a y b o t h q u e s t io n i n g a n d r e - e x a m i n a ti o n . S o t h a t is o u r p r o p o s a l. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e – h a v e th e y i n d ic a t e d if t h e y a r e f i n e w i t h t h a t o r n o t y e t? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A g a i n m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is y e s b u t i f M r – i t i s in d e e d y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s h e c o n fir m s . N o t h a t i s f in e . Th e r e w il l b e a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r Mr N a t a s e n ’s le g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e t o r e - e x a m i n e h i m a n d a s f a r a s p o s s ib l e w e w il l t r y t o m a k e s u r e w e f i n is h t o d a y e v e n if i t m e a n s w e g o b e y o n d f o u r o ’c lo c k . 20 But maybe when we reach four o ’c l o c k w e c a n j u s t s e e h o w fa r w e w il l b e t o f in is h i n g a n d t h e n s e e w h e t h e r w e n e e d t o g o u p t o f iv e o r b e y o n d t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: If w e n e e d t o g o b e y o n d t h a t w e m i g h t h a v e to j u s t t a lk m o r e b u t c e r t a i n ly u p to f iv e w e c a n g o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e b t e d C h a ir. Page 5 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e r e is o n e fi n a l a s p e c t ju s t b e f o r e w e c o m m e n c e w i th M r N a ta s e n ’s e v id e n c e a n d t h a t i s a m a t t e r t h a t h a s d e v e l o p e d s i n c e M s T la ts a n a g a v e h e r e v i d e n c e . T h a t i t is a p p r o p r ia t e t o b r i n g to t h e C h a ir ’s a t t e n t i o n . C h a ir t h e r e a r e t w o a s p e c ts t o i t . T h e o n e is th a t d u r i n g M s Tl a ts a n a ’s e v i d e n c e y o u m a y r e c a l l t h a t s h e t e s ti fi e d a b o u t a c a s e o f i n t i m id a ti o n t h a t s h e h a d l o d g e d w it h th e M a f ik e n g p o lic e b u t in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h s h e h a d r e c e iv e d n o f e e d b a c k w h a t e v e r. 10 In th e c o u r s e o f h e r t e s t i m o n y y o u r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h a t b e f o ll o w e d u p b y th e c o m m i s s i o n . T h a t w a s d o n e a n d s o I w o u l d li k e t o t a k e a m o m e n t n o w j u s t to u p d a t e y o u o n t h a t p o s i t io n i f I m a y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p l e a s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir y o u w i ll fi n d t h e r e s p o n s e t o t h o s e e n q u ir i e s i n M r N a t a s e n ’s b u n d l e . I t is t h e s e c o n d b u n d l e s o i t is D D 1 0 b a n d y o u w i ll fi n d i t t h e r e a t p a g e 4 4 2 .2 5 . CHAIRPERSON: YEs. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir r ig h t a t t h e o u ts e t I a m g o i n g t o m a k e a g e n e r a l a p o l o g y b e f o r e w e g e t to o h e a v i ly in t o th e s e p a p e r s to d a y. T h a t is t h a t t h e b u n d l e h a s b e e n s u p p l e m e n te d m a n y t i m e s s i n c e M r 20 N a t a s e n ’s la s t e v i d e n c e a n d s o w e g o t o p o i n ts o f p o i n ts o f p o i n ts la t e r o n b u t I – I h o p e t o b e a b l e t o n a v i g a te t h r o u g h t h a t w it h e v e r y o n e t o d a y. B u t w e s ta r t a t p a g e 4 4 2 .2 5 C h a i r w i t h th e r e s p o n s e t h a t w a s received to th e enquiries Tl a ts a n a ’s e v i d e n c e . that the c o m m is s i o n s made after Mr A n d t h e r e a r e a s p e c ts o f i t C h a ir w h ic h a r e c o n c e r n i n g a n d w h ic h w e b r in g t o y o u r a t t e n t io n . W h a t w a s a s k e d w a s Page 6 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 f o r a n u p d a t e o n th e c a s e t h a t s h e lo d g e d a n d w h a t y o u s e e o n p a g e 4 4 2 . 2 5 is th a t t h e c a s e w a s lo d g e d w i t h a Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r a t th e M a f ik e n g d e t e c t iv e s e r v ic e o n t h e 4 t h J a n u a r y 2 0 1 8 . That was a c k n o w l e d g e d y o u w i ll f i n d th a t in th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h . A n d th e n in t h e p e n u l t i m a te p a r a g r a p h th e a u t h o r o f th is d o c u m e n t w h o is th e D e p u ty Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r f o r C r i m e D e t e c ti o n in th e N o r t h W e s t in d i c a t e s t h a t th e y m a d e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a n d u p o n p e r u s i n g t h e d o c k e t t h e o ffic e r s w e r e a n d I a m q u o t i n g “ in d is m a y ” t o l e a r n t h a t th e r e w a s n o t h i n g p o s i ti v e t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a to r d id i n t h e d o c k e t a n d th e r e w a s n o 10 c o m m a n d a n d c o n t r o l f r o m t h e c o m m a n d e r ’s s i d e . In t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h it g o e s o n t o s a y t h e P r o v i n c ia l o ffi c e h a v e s i n c e r e m o v e d t h e s a id in v e s t i g a t o r fr o m t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a t t h e d e te c t – M a f ik e n g D e t e c ti v e to t h e P r o v i n c ia l o ff ic e w h e r e th e c a s e i s p r e s e n t ly in v e s t i g a t e d b y P r o v i n c ia l O r g a n is e d C r i m e . A n d C h a ir i f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t h e r e is a ls o a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t d is c i p l in a r y – a d is c ip li n a r y i n v e s ti g a ti o n a g a in s t t h e c o n c e r n e d m e m b e r s h a s b e e n i n i t ia t e d . C h a ir w e – w e g iv e y o u t h a t u p d a te b e c a u s e y o u s p e c i fi c a ll y a s k e d fo r i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 I t a p p e a r s t h a t n o in v e s ti g a t i o n w h a t e v e r w a s done on it. CHAIRPERSON: Hm A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t th a t w a s o f c o n c e r n c e r t a i n l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To th e P r o v i n c i a l c o m m is s i o n e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d i t h a s b e e n m o r e th a n a y e a r a n d h a lf . Page 7 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S i n c e th e c o m p la in t w a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s l a id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : c o m m i s s io n ’s C h a ir I c a n a l s o i n d i c a t e to y o u t h a t t h e i n v e s t ig a to r s are seeking to ta k e a s p e c ts of that in ti m i d a ti o n c a s e f o r w a r d in o u r o w n i n v e s t ig a ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 B e c a u s e th e r e i s a p o s s i b l e li n k w i t h o t h e r a s p e c ts o f t h e e v i d e n c e a n d s o th e y a r e s e e k i n g t o w o r k w i t h t h e p o li c e in t h a t r e g a r d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s . No thank you. W i ll y o u j u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t M r N a t a s e n is m a d e a w a r e o f t h is r e s p o n s e a n d – a n d a t s o m e s t a g e it w o u l d b e g o o d t o h e a r h o w fa r t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s a r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s it d o e s n o t h a v e t o b e s o o n b u t a t s o m e s t a g e it w o u ld b e h e l p f u l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u – y o u i n d i c a t e d M s N a t a s e n I t a k e i t y o u m e a n t M s T la t s a n a . CHAIRPERSON: Oh no I am sorry I – A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t a t a l l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Page 8 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir o n t h e t o p i c o f M s Tl a ts a n a t h o u g h th e r e is a s e c o n d u p d a t e t h a t I m u s t b r in g t o t h e C h a i r ’s a tt e n ti o n t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f M s T l a t s a n a ’s e v id e n c e s h e w a s r e q u e s t e d t o p r o v i d e a f u r t h e r a ffi d a v it t o th e c o m m i s s i o n i n w h ic h s h e w o u l d a c c o u n t in f u l l fo r t h e f u ll R 5 1 m il li o n th a t c a m e i n t o the account of Koreneka the CC which she was the member of and so t h e c o m m is s i o n t o o k s t e p s a f t e r h e r e v id e n c e t o f o l lo w u p w it h h e r a n d 10 t o o b t a i n t h a t f u r t h e r a ffi d a v i t . I n t h e c o u r s e o f t h o s e e n g a g e m e n t s t h e c o m m i s s io n in t e r a c t e d w i th h e r la w y e r M r K n i g h t w h o w a s p r e s e n t during her evidence. H e h a s in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e t h r e a t s m a d e and Ms i n ti m i d a t io n to Tl a ts a n a after her evidence b e fo r e the c o m m i s s io n th e c o n s e q u e n c e o f w h ic h is t h a t in f e a r f o r h e r li f e s h e h a s le f t th e R e p u b li c . C h a ir h is a ffi d a v i t s e t ti n g t h a t o u t y o u w i ll a ls o fi n d in E x h i b i t D D 1 0 b a n d y o u w il l p ic k i t u p a t p a g e 4 4 2 . 2 7 . 1 . S o i t is ju s t a b o u t t w o p a g e s o n fr o m w h e r e w e w e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir y o u w il l s e e t h e r e t h a t th is is a n a ff i d a v i t 20 deposed to by Julian r e p r e s e n t a tiv e . B r e t t K n ig h t w h o is Ms T la t s a n a ’s l e g a l If y o u p i c k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 2 h e i n d ic a te s in th a t a ffi d a v i t t h a t h e w a s a d v is e d b y h i s c li e n t t h a t is M s Tl a ts a n a t h a t o u t o f f e a r s f o r h e r s a fe t y a f t e r h e r te s t i m o n y to t h i s c o m m i s s i o n s h e d e c i d e d t o r e m o v e h e r s e l f fr o m t h e t e r r i t o r ia l li m i ts o f t h e R e p u b lic o f S o u th A f r ic a . T h e p r e c i s e d e s t in a ti o n w h e r e o f is u n k n o w n to h i m . H e Page 9 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 g o e s o n t o g iv e th e f a c ts a s th e y w e r e r e l a y e d t o h i m b y M s Tl a ts a n a . He says at paragraph 3: “ A f t e r h a v i n g t e s t i fi e d b e fo r e t h e c o m m is s i o n M s Tl a ts a n a a d v is e d that she observed suspicious a c ti v i ty a r o u n d h e r r e s i d e n t i a l p r o p e r ty i n M a f ik e n g w h e r e u n k n o w n m e n w h o d i d n o t i d e n ti fy t h e m s e l v e s a p p r o a c h e d f a m i ly m e m b e r s e n q u ir i n g a b o u t h e r w h e r e a b o u ts . ” And if you go over the page he goes on and says: 10 “ I a m in s tr u c te d t h a t a n a t t e m p t w a s a ls o m a d e t o g a i n e n tr y t o h e r r e s i d e n c e . ” At paragraph 5 he records: “ A s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f f e e l in g u n s a fe M s T la ts a n a d e c i d e d t o l e a v e t h e R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A f r i c a . ” And at paragraph 6 he records: “ T h a t s h e h a s a d v is e d h i m t h a t s h e a p p o i n t e d a n a u d it o r t o w r i te u p t h e fi n a n c e s o f K o r e n e k a C C w h ic h h e u n d e r s t a n d s is c u r r e n tly in p r o g r e s s . ” T h a t i s i n d ir e c t r e s p o n s e t o t h e f u r t h e r i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t s h e w a s 20 r e q u ir e d t o p r o v i d e t o t h e c o m m i s s io n . C h a ir w h e n t h e c o m m i s s i o n r e c e i v e d t h i s i n f o r m a ti o n i t t o o k it v e r y s e r i o u s ly. We have engaged o u r o w n i n v e s ti g a t o r s p a r t ic u l a r ly o n a s p e c ts o f s e c u r i ty a n d th e y a r e u p d a ti n g u s r e g u l a r l y o n t h i s a s r e c e n tl y a s y e s t e r d a y. B u t a s m a t t e r s c u r r e n tly s ta n d i t d o e s a p p e a r t h a t Ms T l a t s a n a i s n o t w i t h i n t h e R e p u b l ic a n d a s w e h a v e i t f r o m h e r la w y e r t h is is t h e e x p l a n a t i o n a t Page 10 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 le a s t th a t s h e g a v e h i m f o r h a v i n g le f t th e R e p u b l ic a f t e r h e r t e s ti m o n y. CHAIRPERSON: T h i s is q u i t e c o n c e r n i n g b e c a u s e th e i m p r e s s i o n I h a v e a n d my r e c o ll e c t io n o f e v e r y th i n g r e l a ti n g t o t h i s m a tt e r is n o t p e r f e c t is t h a t a l t h o u g h s h e w o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t is s u e s o f h e r c o n c e r n s o f – i n r e g a r d t o s a f e ty a n d th r e a ts t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e a u th o r it i e s t h e a u t h o r i t ie s d o n o t s e e m to h a v e d o n e a n y t h i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e h a d c o m e a n d g iv e n e v id e n c e a n d a c c o r d i n g t o t h is a ff i d a v i t s u b s e q u e n t ly it a p p e a r e d t h a t s h e w a s u n d e r t h r e a t a n d 10 s h e l e ft . S h e d id n o t f e e l i t s e e m s p r o t e c t e d o r s a f e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I w o u l d li k e t o b e u p d a t e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n r e g a r d to t h e m a t t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 C h a ir if I m a y th e n s u g g e s t th a t w e c o n ti n u e w i t h M r N a t a s e n ’s e v i d e n c e . He was placed under oath on the last occasion. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s m a y b e b e c a u s e o f t h e l a p s e o f t i m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: We can do the oath again. R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? Page 11 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Vi v i e n N a t a s e n . REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n in m a k i n g th e p r e s c r ib e d a ffir m a t i o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . REGISTRAR: D o y o u s o l e m n ly a ff ir m th a t t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w i ll g iv e s h a l l b e t h e t r u t h ; th e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u ly a ffi r m . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I tr u l y a ff ir m . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r N a t a s e n I w o u ld li k e t o [i n t e r v e n t io n ] . CHAIRPERSON: W h i c h – w h i c h b u n d le w i ll y o u b e u s i n g m o s t o f t h e ti m e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l s ta r t w i t h A C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D D 1 0 a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e r e w i ll b e a f e w o th e r b u n d l e s p r e d o m i n a n tl y w e w il l b e u s in g A a n d B t o d a y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e w il l b e o n e o r tw o o t h e r b u n d l e s w e w il l go to. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t m y a r r a n g e m e n t w i th y o u r R e g is tr a r is h e w i ll m a k e t h o s e a v a i la b le t o y o u a s a n d w h e n i t is a p p r o p r i a t e . Page 12 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M r N a t a s e n i f w e c a n c o m m e n c e i n E x h i b i t D D 1 0 a i f w e m a y a n d I w o u ld li k e t o s t a r t a t p a g e 2 5 t h e r e . N o w 2 5 is t h e p a r t o f t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d t o th e c o m m i s s io n o n th e 3 r d M a y o f t h is y e a r. T h a t w a s b e fo r e a m e e ti n g y o u h e l d w i th t h e c o m m i s s i o n th e f o l lo w in g M o n d a y o n t h e 6 t h M a y. A n d I w o u ld l ik e t o p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 o n t h a t p a g e b e c a u s e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 i s w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h th e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 th a t w a s p a id i n c a s h t o M r Va n W y k . C h a ir ju s t t o o r ie n t a t e o u r s e lv e s y o u m i g h t r e c a ll 10 fr o m t h e l a s t e v i d e n c e t h e r e w e r e a s e r i e s o f e le c tr o n ic tr a n s fe r s o u t o f t h e N e o S o l u ti o n s a c c o u n t to a n a c c o u n t o f B a ts o mi I n v e s t m e n ts . T h e r e w e r e f o u r in to t a l . B u t th e o n e o u t li e r is a R 3 0 0 0 0 0 i n c a s h t h a t w e h a d n o t g o t t o i n M r N a t a s e n ’s e v i d e n c e l a s t ti m e a n d th a t is th e t o p ic I w o u l d l ik e t o a d d r e s s w it h M r N a ta s e n n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n t h is w a s th e d r a f t t h a t y o u r e t u r n e d t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n o n t h e 3 r d M a y, d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s s i g n e d b y y o u , y o u c a n fi n d t h a t o n th e 20 la s t p a g e , d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t w a s a v e r s io n o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u h a d w o r k e d o n p r e v i o u s l y to p r o d u c e t h is d o c u m e n t w e s e e a t t h is p a g e , d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? A n d t h a t w a s a v e r s io n o f y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t y o u h a d w o r k e d o n p r e v i o u s l y to p r o d u c e t h is d o c u m e n t w e s e e a t t h is Page 13 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 p a g e , d o y o u r e c a ll th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So if we look at paragraph 13 on that page c o u l d y o u in d i c a t e t h e r e w h a t e x p l a n a t io n y o u g iv e a b o u t t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 t h a t w a s p a i d to M r Va n W y k ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a d e x p la in e d a t t h e t i m e t h a t I h a d a p o r t i o n o f c a s h w i th m e . I d o n o t n o r m a lly o b v i o u s ly h a v e c a s h a t h o m e . O u r b u s i n e s s d o e s n o t g e n e r a t e c a s h s o i t is n o t o u t o f th e b u s i n e s s p r o c e e d s . S o I h a d e x p la in e d a t t h e t i m e t h a t I h a d d is p o s e d o f a 10 v e h ic l e , o n e o f m y p r iv a t e v e h ic l e s a n d th e b u y e r h a d s e c u r e d t h e v e h ic l e b y p a y in g m e a p o r ti o n i n c a s h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t e ll u s h o w i t c a m e t h a t M r Va n W y k w a n t e d t h i s R 3 0 0 0 0 0 t o b e p a id ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e r e q u e s te d i t – a p o r ti o n i n c a s h b e c a u s e I b e li e v e a t t h e ti m e h e w a n t e d t o s e c u r e a v e h ic l e , a c l a s s ic c a r t h a t h e w a n t e d t o b u y a n d h e a s k e d fo r t h a t p o r ti o n i n c a s h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Okay so if we could just unpack that a bit. W h e n d i d th is h a p p e n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I c a n n o t r e c a l l e x a c t ly b u t i t w a s a t t h e s t a r t o f 20 t h e y e a r. W e – h e b a s ic a l ly c a ll e d m e – I w a s o u t o f t o w n a n d h e c a l le d me and said he needed it and then I had to obviously then make a r r a n g e m e n ts fo r m y b r o t h e r to r e tr ie v e it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t w a s e a r ly i n 2 0 1 6 , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr io r t o th e 4 t h J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 , c o r r e c t ? Page 14 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . W e ll o n o r a b o u t t h a t d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n th e 4 t h it s e l f c o u ld i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d e x p l a i n to u s th e c o m m u n ic a ti o n , w a s i t – h o w d i d i t ta k e p l a c e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : o v e r W h a ts a p p . I a s s u m e d – w e l l lo o k h e p r o b a b ly c a ll e d m e H e u s e d t o c a ll m e o v e r W h a ts a p p c a l ls b e c a u s e h e used to use data. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d i d h e s a y p r e c is e ly ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e fir s t s a i d h e n e e d e d R 3 0 0 0 0 0 a n d th e n I s a i d w e l l I c o u ld d o th e tr a n s fe r o r t e ll E u g e n e R u b e n t o d o t h e tr a n s fe r. T h e n – h e t h e n s a i d n o , n o h e n e e d e d i t i n c a s h . Th e n I s a id o k a y fi n e I h a p p e n t o h a v e s o m e s o I t h e n a r r a n g e d f o r h i m t o g e t i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t r e a s o n d i d h e g iv e f o r n e e d i n g t h o s e funds on the 4th January 2016? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s t o p u r c h a s e a v e h ic le h e s a id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u m a k e e n q u ir ie s o f h i m a b o u t w h y h e n e e d e d it t h e n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I j u s t k n e w t h a t h e c o l le c te d c a r s s o – I m e a n 20 q u i te o ft e n I w o u ld a l s o – i f I b u y a c l a s s i c c a r I w o u l d b u y i t i f i t is a s m a ll n u m b e r I w o u ld g e n e r a l ly p a y c a s h b e c a u s e th e s e l l e r s g e n e r a ll y want cash. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h y fa c i li t a t e t h is w h il e y o u w e r e s t il l o n h o li d a y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll h e s a i d h e w o u ld l o s e th e s a l e i f h e d i d Page 15 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 not do it then. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h y d id y o u n o t s u g g e s t to h i m t h a t h e j u s t g o t o h is b a n k a n d w i t h d r a w R 3 0 0 0 0 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll h e s a i d t h a t t h e b a n k – w e l l I m e a n t h a t h e w a n t e d c a s h a n d I s a i d w e l l I h a p p e n t o h a v e i t . I t w a s ju s t t h a t I h a d it . I m e a n I w a s n o t g o i n g t o u s e i t f o r a n y t h i n g s o I g a v e i t t o h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So you – you did not see it as odd that he w o u ld n o t w a n t t o g o a n d g e t R 3 0 0 0 0 0 c a s h o u t o f h i s o w n b a n k account? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I j u s t u n d e r s to o d i t to b e s h o r t n o ti c e th a t h e n e e d e d t o e x e c u t e t h a t s a l e q u i c k l y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e w e n t t o y o u r a th e r t h a n a b a n k ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Well he asked me and as I happen to have it then I gave it. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u f o ll o w u p w i th h i m a f t e r w a r d s a b o u t whether he did purchase the car? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I w a s s ti ll o n h o l id a y. W h e n I g o t b a c k I d i d n o t th in k a n y t h i n g o f it . I j u s t o b v io u s ly h a d to l d E u g e n e t o m a k e s u r e it c o m e s o ff h is – o b v i o u s l y o f h is l o a n to – o r h is a c c o u n t w i t h m e in t o 20 – i n to – a g a i n s t m y s h a r e h o l d e r l o a n a c c o u n t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o le t u s ju s t e x p l o r e t h a t a li t tl e b i t f u r th e r. Yo u r b r o t h e r ’s a ffi d a v i t b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n in d i c a t e s th a t y o u a n d M r Va n W y k h e l d a n in t e r e s t i n v i n t a g e c a r s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o w e d id n o t h a v e a n i n te r e s t i n v in t a g e c a r s . W e h a d – i n te r e s t a s i n s h a r e h o l d in g o r i n t e r e s t a s i n [ in t e r v e n ti o n ] . Page 16 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o , n o , n o y o u w e r e i n te r e s t e d . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e s h a r e d a p a s s i o n a b o u t i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s a p a s s i o n r i g h t th a t is p r o b a b ly a b e t t e r w o r d . A p a s s io n fo r v i n t a g e c a r s . Te ll u s a b it a b o u t t h a t ? H o w d id t h a t d e v e l o p in y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t t h e s ta r t w h e n h e u s e d to a t te n d f u n c ti o n s h e m e n ti o n e d th a t h e u s e d t o c o l le c t c l a s s ic R o lls R o y c e ’s . He even s h o w e d m e p ic tu r e s a t t h e ti m e o f s o m e c la s s ic R o ll s R o y c e ’s th a t h e had. 10 H e h a d m e n ti o n e d – in f a c t t h a t is w h y t h a t n u m b e r r e s o n a t e d w i t h m e w a s h e h a d m e n t io n e d p r e v i o u s ly i n th e y e a r t h a t h e w a s lo o k in g a t b u y i n g a n o t h e r o n e a n d t h e p r i c e r a n g e h e s p o k e a b o u t w a s the R300 000. So it sort of resonated when he asked for R300 000 for t h e c a r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e w h o l e c a r w o u l d c o s t R 3 0 0 0 0 0 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a i t is a 1 9 8 4 c a r t h e r e a b o u ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h s o – s o i t w a s a s p e c i fi c c a r a 1 9 8 4 c a r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o w h e n w e s p o k e a b o u t c a r s i t w a s in t h a t p r i c e r a n g e f o r t h a t ti m e o f p e r i o d o f c a r. S o a 1 9 8 4 R o l ls R o y c e w o u l d c o s t i n t h e r e g i o n o f R 3 0 0 0 0 0 . H e d i d n o t h a v e a s p e c i fi c c a r i n m in d 20 then. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u e v e r lo o k a t e a c h o th e r ’s v i n t a g e c a r s or anything? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a d n e v e r s e e n h is . H e h a s n e v e r c o m e t o m y h o m e w it h o n e b u t I h a v e n e v e r s e e n i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o … Page 17 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e k n e w t h a t I h a d s o m e a s w e ll . I had an A n g l ia a n d a C h e v y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u n e v e r d r o v e th e m t o g e t h e r a t a n y e v e n t s M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , n o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e – d i d h e s p e c i f ic a l ly m e n ti o n th e 1 9 8 4 c a r a g a in w h e n h e s p o k e t o y o u i n e a r ly 2 0 1 6 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o g o to w h a t y o u s a y f u r th e r d o w n a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 o n p a g e 2 5 b e c a u s e t h e r e y o u 10 a c c o u n t m u c h o f w h a t y o u h a v e s a id a l r e a d y th a t y o u w e r e o u t o f to w n o n t h a t d a y, th a t y o u s e n t y o u r b r o th e r t o c o l le c t th e m o n e y i n t h e h o u s e a n d m e e t w i t h th e p e r s o n s e n t b y M r Va n W y k . A n d t h e n y o u g o on and say: “ M r Va n W y k c a l le d m e l a t e r t o c o n fir m r e c e i p t . ” A n d y o u s a y y o u c a n c o n fir m t h a t y o u r b r o th e r w o u ld c o n fi r m t h is i f h e w a s t o b e c a ll e d . O f c o u r s e e v e n ts h a v e d e v e lo p e d s i n c e t h e n . Yo u r b r o t h e r g a v e a n a ffi d a v it t o th e c o m m i s s i o n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To g e t h e r w i t h y o u r a ff i d a v i t o n t h e 1 2 t h J u l y, i s 20 that correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n I w o u ld lik e y o u p l e a s e t o r e a d w h a t f o ll o w s t h e r e a f te r fr o m t h e s e n t e n c e “ a t th i s s t a g e ” ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t t h i s s ta g e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Page 18 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : “ I h a d s o l d o n e o f m y c a r s a 2 0 0 9 D B S A s t o n M a r t in a n d t h e b u y e r g a v e m e s o m e o f t h e f u n d in c a s h . I s o l d t h e c a r f o r R 1 . 4 m i ll io n a n d R 3 0 0 0 0 0 w a s p a id in c a s h a n d th e b a la n c e w a s p a i d t o m y a c c o u n t . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n c a r r y o n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : “ A n d th a t i s t h e r e a s o n w h y I h a d c a s h o n h a n d . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Thank you do you remember why that was a d d e d i n y o u r s t a te m e n t a f te r th e p r e v io u s v e r s i o n th a t y o u h a d w o r k e d on? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I c a n n o t r e c a l l – I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll a m e e ti n g i n A p r il w i t h t h e c o m m i s s io n w h e r e t h e y p r o b e d w h y t h e r e w o u l d b e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 ly i n g a r o u n d a t y o u r h o u s e ? A n d w a s t h is t h e e x p l a n a t i o n y o u g a v e th e m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n y o u h a d a m e e ti n g o n t h e 6 t h M a y w i t h t h e c o m m is s i o n w h e r e t h is a s p e c t w a s p r o b e d f u r t h e r w i t h y o u , is t h a t correct? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u r e c a l l b e in g a s k e d t o p r o v i d e y o u r b a n k s t a t e m e n ts i n o r d e r to g e t f u r t h e r s u p p o r t f o r t h e v e r s i o n th a t appears at paragraph 13? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll h a v i n g p r o v i d e d t h o s e b a n k Page 19 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 s t a te m e n ts ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n s u b m i t t e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u r e c a l l w h e t h e r th e y r e fl e c t e d a p a y m e n t a r o u n d th a t ti m e o f R 1 .4 m i ll io n i n to y o u r a c c o u n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s n o t r e fl e c t e d a t t h a t t i m e . The buyer o b v i o u s l y s e c u r e d t h e c a r w i t h m e b u t h e h a d a d e l a y i n te r ms o f o b v i o u s l y s e c u r in g h i s fi n a n c e s o a t t h e t i m e w h e n t h e f in a n c e w e n t t h r o u g h I t h i n k w e s u b m i t t e d th o s e d o c u m e n ts t h r o u g h t o y o u o f t h e a g r e e m e n t o f s a l e th a t h a p p e n e d la t e r. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t t h e [ i n t e r v e n ti o n ] . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u t t h a t is – t h a t h a p p e n e d i n 2 0 1 7 I t h i n k b u t y o u h a v e g o t th e d o c u m e n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e d o . T h e d o c u m e n t y o u s u b m i t te d i s a s a l e in S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 8 . S o c a n I j u s t b e c l e a r. On the 4th January 2016 y o u h a d R 3 0 0 0 0 0 in c a s h a t y o u r h o u s e b e c a u s e o f a s a le o f a c a r th a t o n ly m a t e r i a lis e d i n S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 8 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s b e c a u s e t h e b u y e r o b v i o u s ly h e w a s le a v in g h is e m p l o y m e n t a n d h e w a n t e d t o o b v io u s ly s e c u r e t h e c a r. W e ll h e d id n o t a t th e t i m e h a v e t h e m o n e y t o b e a b l e t o s e c u r e fi n a n c e 20 o r h e c o u ld n o t g e t f in a n c e f o r th e c a r s o h e a s k e d m e t o o b v i o u s ly w a it a n d th a t i s w h e n w e f in a lis e d th e s a l e w a s w h e n h e w a s a b l e to d o s o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Tw o y e a r s a n d s e v e n m o n t h s l a t e r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : It i s – w e ll l o o k h e h a d p a id – th e c a r i s a s p e c i a l c a r. It is a c o ll e c t o r ’s it e m s o o b v i o u s ly h e w a n t e d t o s e c u r e i t . H e p a i d m e th e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 t o s e c u r e i t . Page 20 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a ta s e n d o y o u k n o w t h a t y o u r b r o t h e r h a s a d i ffe r e n t a c c o u n t o f w h y y o u h a d R 3 0 0 0 0 0 in y o u r h o u s e a t t h e t i m e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . W h a t d o e s h is a ffi d a v i t s a y in g ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o to it . CHAIRPERSON: H a s – h a s h e n o t s e e n t h a t a ff i d a v i t b e f o r e M r Natasen? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h h e h a s it i s a n a ff id a v i t h e p r o d u c e d f o r th e c o m m i s s io n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s , y e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e p r o d u c e d o k a y, o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u g o in t h e s a m e b u n d l e t o p a g e 2 3 8 .1 4 4 . W e ll l e t u s ju s t o r i e n t a te o u r s e lv e s . L e t u s g o b a c k t w o p a g e s s o t h a t y o u w il l s e e t h e [i n t e r v e n t i o n ] . CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry 238? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : .1 – a p o lo g ie s . 2 3 8 . 1 4 2 C h a ir is w h e r e I w o u l d lik e to c o m m e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e s a m e b u n d l e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I m i g h t h a v e i n v e r t e d th e n u m b e r s . I n th e same bundle. 20 CHAIRPERSON: 2 – I have got 238.1, 238.2, A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s C h a ir y o u g o i n g to h a v e t o g o q u i t e a b i t f u r t h e r b e c a u s e i t is – i t is a p o in t a f t e r 2 3 8 b u t y o u h a v e g o t t o g o a l l t h e w a y d o w n to 2 3 8 . 1 4 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I d i d g i v e t h e a p o l o g y a t t h e o u ts e t fo r Page 21 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 these. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e s e d r e a d f u l n u m b e r in g s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e a ffi d a v it o f Mr S h e r w i n N a t a s e n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t . D o y o u h a v e t h a t p a g e M r N a t a s e n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s Mr S h e r w i n N a t a s e n y o u r b r o t h e r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th is is a n a ff id a v i t th a t y o u p r o d u c e d t o t h e 10 c o m m i s s io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s a n a n n e x u r e t o t h e a ff i d a v i t t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d o n t h e 1 2 t h J u ly 2 0 1 9 o n th e m o r n i n g b e fo r e y o u t e s t i fi e d la s t ti m e , d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u g o o v e r t o p a g e 2 3 8 . 1 4 4 . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 9 a t t h e t o p o f th e p a g e your brother says there: 20 “ M r N a t a s e n w i th a r e fe r e n c e t o y o u a d v i s e d h i m t h a t y o u h a d b u i l t u p s o m e c a s h fr o m s e l li n g o ff s o m e o f h is o l d c a r s , s o m e s p a r ts – p a r ts a n d s p a r e s a n d h a d s c r a p e d u p th e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 to g iv e t o a p e r s o n t h a t Va n W y k h a d d e s i g n a t e d t o c o l l e c t f r o m t h e o ff i c e . ” Do you see that? Page 22 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u s e e th a t t h a t is d i ffe r e n t to t h e v e r s i o n y o u h a v e j u s t g iv e n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H is u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s th a t I h a d s o l d a n o l d c a r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : No his understanding is that you had scraped t o g e th e r R 3 0 0 0 0 0 b y s e l li n g c a r s i n p l u r a l, s o m e p a r ts a n d s p a r e s , d o you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s b u t t h a t is h is u n d e r s t a n d in g . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d i d n o t s p e c i f ic a l ly te ll h i m I s o l d m y A s t o n a n d h a d a 3 0 0 0 0 0 d e p o s i t th e r e . H is u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s i t w a s fr o m s e l li n g o f m y o l d c a r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h e s a y s t h is is w h a t y o u t o l d h i m . C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a , b u t t h a t i s h is u n d e r s t a n d in g . I d id n o t s a y - I s a i d I s o l d c a r. S o th a t i s h o w h e u n d e r s t o o d it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e u n d e r s t o o d I s o l d a c a r to m e a n y o u w o u l d s c r a p t o g e t h e r p u r s u a n t t o n u m e r o u s c a r s a l e s a n d s a l e s o f p a r ts a n d s p a r e s R 3 0 0 0 0 0 . Is t h a t y o u r te s t i m o n y ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l th a t is h is u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t I w a s - h e w a s to l d b u t I s a id I h a d s o l d m y c a r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t is th e s p e c i f ic A s t o n M a r t i n i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h o w n e r s h i p o n l y p a s s e d i n S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 8 t h a t y o u s a y y o u g o t R 3 0 0 0 0 0 f o r in c a s h in e a r ly 2 0 1 6 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : To s e c u r e t h e c a r. T h e b u y e r n e e d e d t o s e c u r e Page 23 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h e c a r b e c a u s e o b v io u s ly h e w a n te d i t a n d h e d i d n o t w a n t m e t o s e l l i t e ls e w h e r e a n d w h e n h e g o t th e m o n e y th e n o r th e a b il i ty to fi n a n c e i t h e f in a n c e d i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u t e l l u s w h o t h a t p u r c h a s e r w a s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I c a n . I t i s i n m y - I th in k i t is in m y a ffi d a v i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is n o t to m y r e c o ll e c ti o n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. H is n a m e is G e r a l d S tr a u s s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S tr a u s s . S o h e p a i d y o u R 3 0 0 0 0 0 in c a s h f o r a c a r i n 2 0 1 6 a n d y o u r e m a i n e d t h e o w n e r o f it f o r tw o y e a r s a n d s e v e n 10 m o n th s a n d t h e n y o u g o t p a i d t h e b a l a n c e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e w e r e t o a s k M r S tr a u s s a b o u t t h a t w o u ld h e c o n fi r m th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Yo u a r e w e lc o m e t o a s k h i m . We can provide t h e d e t a i ls . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d h e c o n f ir m i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e w il l c o n f ir m i t. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l I a m - I w a s n o t s u r e w h e t h e r - w h e t h e r th a t q u e s t io n w a s - w a s f in e b u t y o u h a v e a n s w e r e d . 20 Whether or not he w o u ld c o n fir m ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t i s u p t o h i m b u t u l ti m a t e l y I k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d - w h a t tr a n s p ir e d . T h a t is m y v e r s i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o th a t is w h a t I a m s a y i n g th a t u n l e s s y o u h a v e r e c e n tl y s p o k e n t o h i m a n d a s k e d h i m w h e th e r i f h e h a s c a l l e d y o u w o u l d c o n f ir m t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t k n o w … Page 24 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. Th a t i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e th e r w i ll h e c o n f ir m . A ll y o u w o u l d k n o w is i f a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d i f h e t e ll s t h e C o m m is s i o n w h a t h a p p e n e d h e s h o u l d c o n fi r m b u t … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e - I t h i n k w e d o u n d e r s t a n d . Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t o n e p o in t o f c la r i fi c a t io n w h e n w a s t h e c a s h g i v e n t o y o u i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e c a r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s b e fo r e I l e f t o n h o l id a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n w a s th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n d u r i n g e a r ly D e c e m b e r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f 2 0 1 5 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 2 0 1 5 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d id y o u n o t g o a n d p la c e i t i n t h e b a n k ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I w a s a b o u t t o l e a v e o n m y h o l i d a y. S o I j u s t k e p t a n d s o m e t i m e s I m i g h t n e e d i t t o b u y a n o t h e r c a r o r - o r je w e l le r y o r w a tc h e s o r s o m e th i n g w h ic h I w o u l d p a y c a s h fo r w i t h th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d o y o u g e n e r a l ly k e e p q u i t e a b i t o f c a s h a v a i la b le ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a d a lr e a d y t e s t i f ie d th a t I d o n o t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s w a s a r a r e o c c a s i o n … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t , c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M Y R : W h e r e y o u k e p t 3 0 0 0 0 0 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n D e c e m b e r it w a s y o u r i n t e n ti o n to k e e p Page 25 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 it in c a s h i n c a s e y o u n e e d e d i t f o r a p u r c h a s e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ei t h e r o f je w e l le r y o r c a r s . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d i d y o u t h e n h a n d i t o v e r to M r Va n W y k o n 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 i f y o u r i n te n ti o n w a s t o k e e p i t f o r y o u r p u r c h a s in g ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e a s k e d f o r i t a n d I w a s g o in g t o t a k e i t o ff t h e m o n i e s th a t I w a s g o i n g to g iv e b a c k t o h i m o r i t w a s b a s ic a l ly j u s t a n o ffs e t. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u l d t h e n lik e t o g o to y o u r 1 2 J u ly s t a t e m e n t a n d w e c a n p ic k t h a t u p a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 . 6 - 6 in th e same bundle, A. CHAIRPERSON: 2-3-8 …? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P o i n t 6 - 6 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Th a t i s n o t w h e r e it s t a r ts h e y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t d o e s n o t s ta r t t h e r e n o i n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t s t a r ts a f e w p a g e s b a c k a t 2 - 3 - 8 . 6 - 1 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n can you c o n fir m this is the s t a te m e n t y o u p r o v i d e d t o t h e C o m m i s s io n o n th e m o r n in g b e f o r e y o u t e s ti fi e d l a s t ti m e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I a m p ic k in g it u p a t p a g e 6 6 - 2 - 3 - 8 .6 - 6 b e c a u s e I w o u l d li k e t o lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 2 4 th e r e b e c a u s e t h i s is th e Page 26 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 p a r t o f y o u r 1 2 J u ly s ta t e m e n t in w h ic h y o u d e a l w i t h t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 . D o you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e r e y o u s a y s i m i la r ly to th e t e s t i m o n y y o u h a v e g iv e n t o d a y t h a t : “ D u r i n g o r a b o u t J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 Va n W y k r e q u e s t e d that I release the amount of 300 000 …” B e in g th e tr a n s a c t io n r e fe r r e d to a b o v e . That is where you w o u ld it e m is e w h a t p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e a n d y o u s a y : 10 “ … i n c a s h to h i m a s a m a tt e r o f u r g e n c y w i th t h e a d v is e s th a t h e n e e d e d s a m e f o r a n u r g e n t p e r s o n a l purchase.” Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t is c o n s is t e n t w i th w h a t y o u h a v e t o l d u s t h is m o r n in g . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n I j u s t c o n f ir m b e c a u s e i t m a y b e t h a t M r Va n W y k c o m e s give Commission. to evidence in due course before this D id h e a t a n y p o i n t i n t h i s c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h i n e a r ly J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 r e f e r t o th e A N C ’s a n n u a l c e le b r a ti o n s a n d n e e d f o r c a s h in r e l a ti o n t o t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d h e m a k e a n y r e f e r e n c e to r e f l e c to r ja c k e t s t h a t w e r e r e q u ir e d f o r th o s e c e l e b r a t io n s a n d i n r e s p e c t o f Page 27 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w h ic h h e n e e d e d t o p a y R 3 0 0 0 0 0 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : D e fi n i t e l y n o t w i th m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u ; a n d M r N a t a s e n y o u t h e n g o o n a n d you say: “ I n th e l i g h t o f th e f a c t th a t I w a s a w a y a t t h e t i m e I a s k e d m y b r o t h e r S h e r w i n t o a t te n d a t m y h o u s e , o p e n t h e s a fe a n d t o t a k e t h e a m o u n t o f R 3 0 0 0 0 0 fr o m m y o w n p e r s o n a l f u n d s i n o r d e r t o m a k e p a y m e n t to M r Va n W y k u r g e n tl y w h ic h S h e r w i n d u ly 10 a tt e n d e d to . ” Do you see there? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r N a ta s e n i t is c l e a r i t s e e m s t o m e f r o m t h is t h a t i t w a s y o u r o w n p e r s o n a l fu n d s n o t t h e f u n d s o f N e o S o lu t io n s t h a t w e r e b e i n g u s e d t o g iv e to M r Va n W y k o n 4 J a n u a r y. C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i t w o u l d b e f a ir I s u g g e s t u n le s s y o u h o l d a d i ffe r e n t v i e w t h a t i t w a s y o u in y o u r p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty - n o t N e o S o lu t io n s t h e c o m p a n y b u t y o u i n y o u r p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty - w h o w a s n o w 20 a s s is ti n g M r Va n W y k to c o n v e r t a p o r ti o n o f th e m o n ie s th a t h a v e c o m e in t o N e o S o l u ti o n s i n to c a s h f o r h is o w n u s e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . I t w a s p e r s o n a l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I s a i d it is c o r r e c t t h a t y o u s a y t h a t t h e f u n d s were my personal funds. H o w e v e r I - t h e tr a n s a c ti o n w a s p r o c e s s e d Page 28 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w h e r e I t o o k i t o ff t h e m o n i e s t h a t h e h a d w i t h u s a n d t h a t - th o s e f u n d s o r th a t m o n i e s a g a i n s t m y p e r s o n a l lo a n a c c o u n t t o t h e c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e l o o k a t t h a t b e c a u s e y o u d o p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 2 5 ? A t p a r a g r a p h 2 5 y o u s a y th e r e : “ I n li g h t o f t h e f a c t t h a t m y o w n p e r s o n a l f u n d s h a d b e e n u s e d i n o r d e r t o r e p a y Va n W y k a s m e n ti o n e d in p a r a g r a p h 2 4 s a m e w o u l d h a v e t o b e r e p a id t o m e f r o m Va n W y k ’s fu n d s t h a t N e o S o l u t io n s w a s possessed of in due course.” 10 Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d j u s t l ik e to e x p l o r e th a t a li t t le b i t f u r th e r. Yo u s a y w o u l d h a v e t o b e r e p a id . W e r e th e y r e p a i d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d e d u c te d i t fr o m t h e a m o u n ts t h a t h e h a d w i t h us. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t y o u s a y h e r e - r e m e m b e r i t is y o u r o w n personal funds. So you had to be repaid. Were you repaid? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . I t is s t il l s it t i n g i n m y l o a n a c c o u n t w it h t h e c o m p a n y. S o t h e y w e r e n o t r e p a id t o m e fr o m t h e c o m p a n y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t l o a n a c c o u n t i s t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : M y lo a n a c c o u n t w i t h N e o S o l u t i o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h b a n k a c c o u n t is t h a t b a n k a c c o u n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t is n o t a b a n k a c c o u n t . I t is a - i t i s a j o u r n a l e n tr y. I t i s a g e n e r a l l e d g e r i te m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . S o - s o r r y I a m c o n fu s e d b e c a u s e w e Page 29 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w i ll g o to i t n o w b u t t h e r e i s a p a r ti c u l a r e n tr y o n t h e b a n k s t a te m e n ts o f N e o S o l u ti o n s th a t y o u h a v e i d e n ti f i e d p r e v i o u s ly i n y o u r a ffi d a v it s b e f o r e t h is C o m m i s s io n a n d i n y o u r 2 0 4 S t a t e m e n t r e la t in g to t h is tr a n s a c ti o n . S o fo r g iv e m e i f I w a s f o c u s i n g o n b a n k s t a te m e n ts . L e t m e ju s t m a k e s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e . So y o u r e v i d e n c e i s t h a t y o u p e r s o n a lly h a v e n e v e r b e e n r e p a id t h a t m o n e y. C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 I t h a s n e v e r c o m e in t o y o u r p e r s o n a l b a n k account with Nedbank. Correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I f w e c a n th e n g o t o t h a t l in e it e m t h a t I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o i n b a n k s t a t e m e n ts th a t y o u h a v e p r e v i o u s ly p r o v i d e d a n d y o u w il l f in d t h a t a t p a g e 1 4 o f t h e s a m e b u n d l e t h a t w e a r e w o r k i n g in . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : P a g e 1 4 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w M r N a ta s e n I w o u l d j u s t l ik e to o r i e n t a t e y o u a s to w h a t t h i s d o c u m e n t i s . I t is a d o c u m e n t th a t y o u i n i t ia ll y s u p p li e d w h e n y o u p r o d u c e d y o u r S e c ti o n 2 0 4 S t a te m e n t a n d w h i c h y o u 20 h a v e s u b s e q u e n tl y p r o v i d e d t o t h e C o m m i s s io n a g a i n a s a n a n n e x u r e t o y o u r 1 2 J u l y s ta t e m e n t . N o w t h e w a y t h a t th is is d e s c r i b e d w e n e e d t o g o b a c k i n t o y o u r s t a te m e n t j u s t t o u n d e r s ta n d . S o i f w e c o u l d t o th a t . Yo u g o b a c k a fe w p a g e s a n d y o u w ill f i n d t h a t a t p a g e 7 o f t h e s a m e b u n d l e t h a t is DD10A. Page 30 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 is b r o u g h t - b r o u g h t u p t w ic e b u t y o u a r e o n p a r a g r a p h 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m a t p a r a g r a p h 6 w h e r e y o u s a y : “ Va n W y k r e q u e s te d t h a t a n a m o u n t o f 3 0 0 0 0 0 n e e d s t o b e p a id t o h i m i n c a s h a n d th i s a m o u n t was paid to him on 4 January 2016.” Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t h e r e i s a fu r t h e r i n d i c a t io n o v e r t h e 10 p a g e a t 11 w h e r e y o u s a y : “ Va n W y k a ls o r e q u e s te d a p o r t io n o f fu n d s i n c a s h i. e . a n a m o u n t o f 3 0 0 0 0 0 g i v e n t o h i m i n c a s h o n 4 January 2016.” R i g h t a n d th e n a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e s t a te m e n t w h a t is a tt a c h e d t o i t i s th e n t h e b a n k s t a te m e n ts r e fl e c t in g t h a t a n d th e o t h e r a m o u n ts . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t u s g o t o p a g e 1 3 i f w e m a y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . I a m a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t p a g e 1 3 t h o s e a r e th e b a n k s ta t e m e n ts s h o w i n g t h e m o n ie s c o m i n g i n to K o r e n e k a . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : M o n i e s c o m in g i n t o ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N e d b a n k fr o m K o r e n e k a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fr o m K o r e n e k a in t o th e N e o S o l u ti o n s N e d b a n k Page 31 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 account. Correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e t h a t i s w h a t y o u f l a g a s t h e e n tr y i n t h e b a n k a c c o u n t o n t h e 1 s t - 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 r e l a t e d t o t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 c a s h t h a t w a s p a id t o Mr Va n W y k . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n w h e n y o u t e s t if i e d la s t t i m e y o u s a i d t h a t t h a t e n tr y i n d ic a te s a tr a n s f e r fr o m t h e N e o S o l u ti o n s N e d b a n k a c c o u n t to t h e N e o S o l u ti o n s S t a n d a r d B a n k a c c o u n t . Is t h a t 10 correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w a s i t t h e n i d e n ti f ie d a s t h e e n tr y o n th e b a n k s t a t e m e n t s o f N e o S o l u ti o n s t h a t r e l a t e d t o t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : M y - m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s th e a c c o u n ta n t a t t h e ti m e p r o c e s s e d t h a t tr a n s f e r t o r e fl e c t t h e n t h a t - h e d i d th e jo u r n a l e n tr y o r o u g h t to h a v e d o n e a t t h e ti m e . T h e j o u r n a l e n tr y i n th e b o o k s t o s h o w t h a t i t g o e s a g a in s t my l o a n a c c o u n t b u t t h i s w a s e ff e c t iv e ly a c c o u n t in g f o r t h e f a c t t h a t th is m o n e y is n o l o n g e r p a r t o f Va n W y k ’s monies. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d ju s t l ik e t o le a v e i f w e m a y a c c o u n ti n g m a t t e r s a s i d e f r o m b a n k s t a te m e n ts a n d m o n i e s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y, b u t t h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. I understand your evidence to be y o u u s e d y o u r o w n p e r s o n a l f u n d s t o g iv e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 i n c a s h t o M r Va n W y k . C o r r e c t ? Page 32 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d n o s u s p i c i o n s w e r e r a i s e d fo r y o u w h e n h e c a l l e d y o u o n 4 J a n u a r y a n d a s k e d f o r c a s h t o b u y a c a r. Is that correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u d i d n o t p r o b e w i th h i m w h y h e d i d n o t g o a n d g e t i t fr o m t h e b a n k ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll I - I u n d e r s t o o d i t to b e s h o r t n o tic e t h a t h e w a n t e d t o c o n c l u d e t h e s a l e o n t h e v e h i c le . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w o u l d t h a t m a k e a jo u r n e y t o th e b a n k u n a v a il a b l e t o h i m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d o n o t k n o w h o w l o n g i t t a k e s to s e c u r e 3 0 0 0 0 0 c a s h fr o m a b a n k o n s h o r t n o tic e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u a s k ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d i d n o t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u s a y to h i m y o u w o u l d - t h e p r e v io u s m o n th g iv e n h i m s e v e n m i ll i o n o f t h e 9 . 9 t h a t h e h a d d e p o s i te d w i th y o u r c o m p a n y i n N o v e m b e r a n d s o w h y d o e s h e n o t u s e s o m e o f th a t money? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d id n o t a s k . R e m e m b e r I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t o b e r e la t e d t o p r o p e r ty. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And then when you deposed to your 204 S t a te m e n t a n d w h e n y o u g i v e y o u r a ffi d a v i ts to t h is C o m m i s s i o n y o u h i g h l ig h t t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n in t h e b a n k s t a t e m e n t o f N e o S o l u ti o n s o n 4 J a n u a r y a s b e in g r e la t e d to t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 i n c a s h t h a t y o u g a v e Page 33 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M r Va n W y k . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h is e n tr y h a s n o t h i n g t o d o w i th y o u p e r s o n a l ly o r Mr Va n W y k . D o e s i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : My u n d e r s ta n d i n g is w h e n y o u d e a l - h e l p p r e p a r e t h e s ta t e m e n t, w e n t a n d s a t w i t h th e a c c o u n ta n t . The a c c o u n t a n t h a d e x p l a i n e d t o h i m t h a t th is w a s to g iv e e ff e c t t o r e c o r d o n h is s id e t h a t t h e f u n d s w e r e n o l o n g e r - th e y w e r e c o m i n g o ff Va n W y k ’s a m o u n t o n t h e N e d b a n k a c c o u n t a n d h e a c c o u n t e d f o r t h e m 10 in t h e S t a n d a r d B a n k a c c o u n t a s th e n p a r t o f N e o S o l u t i o n s m o n e y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a ta s e n is th is statement M r J u d i e l ’s s t a te m e n t o r y o u r s ta t e m e n t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e s t a t e m e n t - Mr J u d i e l a s s is t e d m e i n p r e p a r in g th e s t a te m e n t w h e n h e g a v e m e t h e f a c t s a n d h e a ls o i n in t e r r o g a t e d t h e a c c o u n ta n t a t t h e ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t d i d y o u c h e c k w h a t w a s b e i n g s a id in t h e s t a te m e n t a n d a t t a c h e d t o t h e s t a t e m e n t b e fo r e y o u d e p o s e d to i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . W e - w h e n w e s a t d o w n h e - I u n d e r s to o d t h is t o b e t h e n a t u r e o f w h y i t w a s r e fl e c t e d h e r e . To - t o g iv e e ffe c t to 20 t h e f a c t t h a t t h e s e m o n i e s h a d c o m e o ff t h e l o a n a c c o u n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h y d id y o u n o t s a y b u t t h i s i s n o t a p a y m e n t t o m e a n d i t w a s m e w h o g a v e m e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 in c a s h . So I m u s t lo o k f o r s o m e e n tr y t h a t r e fl e c t s t h a t R 3 0 0 0 0 0 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B e c a u s e t h i s t o m e w a s th e - t o r e f le c t t h a t i t is n o w o u t a g a i n s t m y s h a r e h o l d e r l o a n a c c o u n t a n d th e r e f o r e i t is Page 34 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a c c o u n t e d f o r c o r r e c t ly i n r e c o n c i li n g t o th e f u ll 9 . 9 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a ta s e n y o u w i ll a c c e p t th o u g h th a t i t is s i m p l y a tr a n s f e r b e t w e e n o n e N e o S o lu t i o n s b a n k a c c o u n t t o a n o t h e r N e o S o lu t io n s b a n k a c c o u n t. C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t h a s b e e n m y t e s ti m o n y a lr e a d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r N a t a s e n y o u a l s o i n d ic a t e d th a t y o u m a d e n o in q u i r i e s o f M r Va n W y k a ft e r w a r d s a b o u t t h e a c t u a l v in t a g e c a r t h a t h e u r g e n t ly n e e d e d m o n i e s f o r. Is t h a t r ig h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d i d n o t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e o f w h e t h e r h e did buy a car around that time? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I - I te s t i fi e d t h a t I d i d n o t h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s i f I m is s e d th a t . S o y o u j u s t h a d n o f o ll o w u p w i t h h i m a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e u r g e n t 3 0 0 0 0 0 w a s a c t u a ll y u s e d t o b u y th e c a r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I w a s s ti ll a w a y o n h o li d a y. S o I t h i n k a w e e k o r t w o h a d tr a n s p ir e d w h e n I g o t b a c k a n d t h e n o b v i o u s l y I d i d n o t t h i n k a n y th in g o f i t s i n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u c o n t i n u e t o h a v e in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h h i m 20 a ft e r t h a t p o i n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . H e w a s s t ill o b v io u s ly o n t h e fa r m i n g v e n tu r e . T h e r e w a s s ti ll in t e r a c ti o n h a p p e n i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So at no point you asked him whether he c o n c l u d e d t h e s a le t h a t h e u r g e n t ly n e e d e d t h e m o n i e s fo r. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I c a n n o t r e c a l l i f w e d i d o r d id n o t d i s c u s s it Page 35 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a ft e r w a r d s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w o u ld i t s u r p r i s e y o u t o le a r n t h a t h e m a d e n o p u r c h a s e o f a n y v i n ta g e c a r a r o u n d t h a t p e r i o d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I c a n n o t s p e c u l a te o n t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I a m a s k i n g w o u ld i t s u r p r is e y o u i f y o u w e r e n o w t o l d M r Va n W y k m a d e n o p u r c h a s e o f a n y v in t a g e c a r a r o u n d t h a t ti m e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll g iv e n w h a t w e k n o w o f w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d o b v i o u s l y i t d o e s n o t s u r p r is e m e b u t a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e I k n o w h e h a d 10 a c o l le c t i o n o f c a r s a n d h e h a d s h o w n m e p ic t u r e s . So based on it I a s s u m e d h e w o u ld h a v e b o u g h t o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So do you now accept that he was asking for t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 fo r s o m e t h i n g o t h e r th a n a p u r c h a s e o f a v i n ta g e c a r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I c a n n o t s p e c u l a te o n t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e n o w k n o w i n g e v e r y t h in g w e k n o w y o u w o u ld n o t b e s u r p r is e d th a t h e h a d n o t p u r c h a s e d th e c a r. W h a t d o e s th a t m e a n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll i f - i f t h e f u n d s w e r e u s e d f o r s o m e t h i n g t h e n I d o n o t k n o w w h a t th e y w e r e u s e d fo r. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t w o u l d n o t s u r p r is e y o u t h a t t h e y w e r e u s e d fo r s o m e t h i n g o th e r th a n w h a t h e t o l d y o u t h e y w e r e g o i n g to b e u s e d f o r. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e a n s w e r e d th a t a lr e a d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s t h e a n s w e r ? J u s t r e m i n d m e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i t w o u ld n o t s u r p r i s e m e n o w. Page 36 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Mr N a t a s e n ju s t t o c o n c l u d e o n th is a s p e c t t h e n I w o u l d l ik e y o u r c o m m e n t o n th e s e a s p e c t s o f y o u r e v i d e n c e . I t i s c l e a r t h a t y o u p a id M r Va n W y k R 3 0 0 0 0 0 i n c a s h fr o m your personal funds. Correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e s a i d t h a t a l r e a d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u t h e r e b y e n a b le d h i m t o c o n v e r t a p o r t i o n o f th e m o n e y t h a t h a d b e e n p a i d in t o th e N e o S o l u t i o n s b a n k a c c o u n t in t o c a s h . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e r e b y e n a b l e d - p l e a s e c l a r if y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. So remember what happened was the b u s i n e s s o f K o r e n e k a th r o u g h a n e l e c tr o n ic f u n d s tr a n s f e r t h a t i s tr a c k e d t h r o u g h th e b a n k in g s y s t e m p a i d 9 .9 m il li o n i n t o N e o S o l u ti o n s b a n k a c c o u n t. C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e is n o e l e c tr o n ic tr a n s f e r r e c o r d o f t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 c a s h th a t y o u p a id - y o u g a v e t o Mr Va n W y k o r f a c i li t a te d b e e n g iv e n t o h i m o n 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h a t is t h a t f u n d s t h a t a r e 20 tr a c k e d i n t h e e l e c tr o n ic b a n k in g s y s te m w e r e c o n v e r t e d t o c a s h i n a w a y t h a t w il l n o t b e r e fl e c t e d o n t h a t s y s t e m . C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o it w o u l d n o t b e r e f l e c t e d a s a p a y m e n t o u t o f N e o S o l u t i o n s d ir e c tly t o Mr Va n W y k . C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . Page 37 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t w o u l d n o t b e r e fl e c t e d i n M r Va n W y k ’s o w n b a n k a c c o u n t i f h e h a d g o n e t o a b a n k a n d a c t u a l ly w i t h d r a w n th e 300 000? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t is w h a t I m e a n w h e n I s a y c o n v e r t m o n i e s t h a t c a m e in t o t h e a c c o u n t i n a p a r ti c u l a r w a y th a t c a n b e tr a c k e d b y a n e l e c tr o n ic b a n k i n g s y s t e m in t o c a s h . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t a n d t h a t w a s th e b a s i s o f t h e c r e a ti o n o f t h e 2 0 4 - t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 4 a ff id a v i t w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e c a s h f lo w. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d a n d y o u i d e n ti f ie d a tr a n s a c ti o n o n 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 f o r th is c a s h p a y m e n t t h a t h a d n o t h in g t o d o w i th t h e c a s h th a t y o u g a v e Mr Va n W y k . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : E x p l a in . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D i d y o u a s k h e r - w a s th e r e - d id y o u g i v e an answer or did you ask her to repeat? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. I t h i n k p l e a s e r e p e a t y o u r q u e s ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . Yo u w i ll r e c a l l t h a t th e l in e i t e m o n t h e 20 N e o S o lu t io n s b a n k a c c o u n t - b a n k s t a t e m e n ts th a t y o u i d e n ti f ie d in y o u r 2 0 4 S t a t e m e n t a s r e l a te d to t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 c a s h th a t w a s g i v e n to M r Va n W y k o n 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h e e n tr y w e s a w a t p a g e 1 4 . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t , y e s . Page 38 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t th a t b a n k e n tr y is n o t r e fl e c t iv e o f th e c a s h th a t y o u g a v e M r Va n W y k o n t h a t d a y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e e x p l a i n e d t h a t m y a c c o u n t a n t p r o c e s s e d t h a t tr a n s f e r to s h o w t h a t t h a t w a s n o l o n g e r p a r t o f Va n W y k ’s m o n e y a n d i t t h e n b e c a m e m y m o n e y th r o u g h m y l o a n a c c o u n t in t h e c o m p a n y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a ta s e n c a n w e l e a v e a c c o u n t s fr o m b a n k s t a te m e n ts ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d o n o t t h i n k y o u c a n . I th i n k … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l … 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e y a r e - t h e y a r e i n e x tr i c a b ly l in k e d in t o th e tr a n s a c ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E x p l a i n t o m e h o w th a t is b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t is h a p p e n in g a s a m a t t e r o f b a n k i n g i s N e o S o l u ti o n s h a s t w o b a n k a c c o u n t s . Is t h a t r ig h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d o n e is w i t h S t a n d a r d B a n k a n d o n e is w it h t h e N e d b a n k . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 So what happens on 4 January according to t h is b a n k in g e n t r y is t h a t m o n i e s t a k e n fr o m t h e N e d b a n k N e o S o l u ti o n s a c c o u n t t o t h e S t a n d a r d B a n k N e o S o l u t i o n s a c c o u n t . C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t h a s n o th i n g t o d o w i t h c a s h t h a t y o u r b r o t h e r w e n t a n d c o ll e c t e d a t y o u r h o u s e o n 4 J a n u a r y a n d g a v e t o M r Va n W y k ? Page 39 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I - I h a v e c l a r i f ie d th is a lr e a d y. The Neo S o lu t io n s S t a n d a r d B a n k a c c o u n t is o u r n o r m a l tr a n s a c ti n g a c c o u n t. W h e n w e e n g a g e d w it h N e d b a n k t h e i n te n t io n w a s t o m o v e o u r b a n k i n g a c r o s s t o N e d b a n k o v e r ti m e . H o w e v e r o u r - o u r d a y to d a y tr a n s a c ti n g and you would have seen it from our bank statements happens in our Standard Bank account. S o t h e tr a n s fe r t h a t o u r a c c o u n t a n t a t t h e t i m e d i d w a s t o r e fl e c t t h a t t h e s e fu n d s w e r e n o lo n g e r Va n - Va n W y k ’s m o n i e s . T h e y w e r e s i t ti n g i n th e N e d b a n k a c c o u n t a t t h a t t i m e w h ic h h a d n o t h a d 10 m u c h o t h e r a c c o u n t in g a c t iv i t y w h ic h y o u c a n s e e o n t h e s t a te m e n t . S o it w a s p l a c e d th e r e b e c a u s e t h e i n te n ti o n o v e r ti m e w a s t o m o v e across. H o w e v e r th e m o m e n t h e m o v e d t h i s 3 0 0 0 0 0 a c r o s s i t w a s h i s w a y o f r e fl e c t in g t h a t t h e s e fu n d s n o w b e l o n g e d to - v i a m e - i n to N e o S o lu t io n s . T h a t w a s t h e w a y h e p r o c e s s e d t h e tr a n s a c t io n . So you c a n n o t s a y th a t - y e s I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r p e r s p e c ti v e . I h a d g iv e n h i m c a s h p e r s o n a ll y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : R i g h t . H o w e v e r th e w a y i t is r e c o r d e d h e r e w a s 20 t o t a k e i t o ff i n th e w a y h e a c c o u n t e d f o r i t . Ta k e i t o ff th e l o a n a c c o u n t t h a t B r i a n h a d i n t o t h e u s e b y N e o a l l b e r e p a id t o m e a t s o m e p o i n t i n ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t w a s n o t r e p a i d to y o u ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t o d a te h a v e n o t d r a w n th a t m o n e y o u t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o it s i t s i n t h e S t a n d a r d B a n k a c c o u n t a n d d id Page 40 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 y o u i n s tr u c t y o u r a c c o u n t a n t t o i d e n t if y t h is a s t h e e n tr y r e fl e c t iv e o f …? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I d i d n o t . I t - i t w a s t h e w a y h e p r o c e s s e d i t in - f o r h is u n d e r s t a n d in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h y d i d y o u r e g a r d i t t h e n a s t h e e n tr y t h a t w o u ld id e n ti fy f o r a S e c t i o n 2 0 4 p u r p o s e s t h e tr a n s a c ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W h e n w e - w h e n h e h a d e x p l a i n e d i t t o J u d ie l r e m e m b e r I h a d fir s t b r i e f e d - w h e n J u d i e l c a m e to m e I h a d th e n e x p l a i n e d t o h i m h o w t h is t h in g h a d t r a n s p ir e d . 10 He went and got the a c c o u n t in g in f o r m a t io n fr o m t h e a c c o u n t a n t a n d th e n w e s a t t o g e t h e r a n d w e w e n t t h r o u g h t h e a ffi d a v i t. W h e n I e x p la i n e d to h i m t h is i s h o w it h a p p e n e d h e s a i d i n c l u d e i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a i d i n c lu d e i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J u d ie l - J a n J u d i e l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u w e r e ta k e n h i s a d v ic e a s to w h ic h i t e m t o i d e n ti fy a s r e l a t e d t o t h is ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a . H e h a d e v e r y t h i n g a n d t h e n h is a d v ic e w a s in c l u d e m o r e - i n c l u d e t h is in s o th a t y o u c a n t h e n r e c o n c i l e in t o ta l t o t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e 9 . 9 m ill i o n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 M r N a t a s e n d id N e o S o l u ti o n s h a v e a n o v e r d r a f t f a c il i ty o n i t s S t a n d a r d B a n k a c c o u n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u s u r e a b o u t th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k y o u s u b p o e n a e d t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . Page 41 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k w e d i d i n - a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll w e c a n g o t o it i n d u e c o u r s e b e c a u s e t h a t is n o t o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g . T h a t - o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t t h e r e w a s n o o v e r d r a f t f a c ili t y a v a il a b l e i n S t a n d a r d B a n k a t th e ti m e . T h e r e w a s a n o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty a v a i l a b le … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n N e d b a n k . Is t h a t c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k t h a t i s c o r r e c t , j a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. T h a t a n s w e r w h e n y o u s a y th a t is c o r r e c t … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e N e d b a n k f a c il i ty w a s d e fi n i t e l y c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja but does it mean then … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e S t a n d a r d B a n k I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h e n w e w e r e s h u t d o w n - w h e n w e w e r e i n t h e p r o c e s s o f m i g r a t io n a c r o s s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o w h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d is w h e t h e r th a t answer now means that the two of you agree that there was no overdraft at Standard Bank but there was at - at Nedbank? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is - th a t is t h e p o s i t io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y, t a k e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . I a m a s k i n g w h e th e r y o u - t h a t i s w h a t y o u r answer means. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I c a n n o t r e c a ll th e e x a c t d a te t h a t w e m o v e d f a c i li t ie s b e t w e e n t h e t w o b a n k s . I was aware there was a Nedbank Page 42 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 f a c i li ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m n o t s u r e w h e n t h e S t a n d a r d B a n k ’s f a c il i ty d i d - d i d n o t o r c e a s e to e x is t a t t h a t p o i n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t s o m e s ta g e t h e r e w a s a n o v e r d r a ft f a c ili t y … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t S t a n d a r d … CHAIRPERSON: At the Standard Bank account but you cannot remember when it was? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e a s s is t y o u t h e n i f I m a y. Yo u w i ll f in d t h e e m a i l i n w h i c h y o u m o v e a c r o s s to N e d b a n k in E X H I B I T D D 1 0 B . S o w e w ill m o v e t o th e o t h e r fi le n o w C h a ir i f w e m a y a n d Mr N a t a s e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t D D 1 0 B ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B a n d y o u w i ll p ic k t h is c o m m u n i c a t io n w i th S t a n d a r d B a n k fr o m N e o S o l u ti o n s a t p a g e 4 - 4 - 2 . 1 - 3 - 1 . CHAIRPERSON: 4-4-2. … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P o i n t 1 - 3 - 1 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 1-3-1. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n d o y o u s e e t h e e m a il a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h a t p a g e ? A p o lo g i e s . I s e e … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s a n e m a i l a s I h a v e i t . C a n y o u t e ll u s w h o i t is fr o m a n d to ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o i t is fr o m S t a n d a r d B a n k P a m e l a L a m p r e c h t . Page 43 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o a p o lo g ie s . T h e - t h e o n e i n th e s e c o n d h a l f of the page. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. Fr o m J e r o m e J o n e s w h o i s p a r t o f my a c c o u n t in g d e p a r t m e n t t o Is a a c a t S t a n d a r d B a n k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e d a t e o f t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t i s 2 8 J u l y 2 0 1 5 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n y o u r e a d f o r u s - j u s t c l a r i f y w e r e y o u c o p i e d o n th a t e m a il ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And ju s t i n d ic a te to us what has been c o m m u n ic a te d th e r e b y Mr J o n e s to S t a n d a r d B a n k . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : another bank “ T h a t w e w il l m o v e o u r b u s in e s s t o w i th e ff e c t from tomorrow - 2 9 J u ly 2 0 1 5 . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d o e s t h a t g i v e y o u t h e s a ti s fa c t i o n y o u n e e d … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To i n d ic a te t o t h e C h a ir th a t y o u a n d I a r e a g r e e d t h a t b y t h e t i m e o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 6 y o u d id n o t 20 h a v e a n o v e r d r a f t fa c il i ty a t S t a n d a r d B a n k b u t y o u d i d h a v e a n o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty a t N e d b a n k . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t N e d b a n k , c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. T h a n k y o u Mr N a t a s e n . I w o u ld n o w l ik e t o m o v e t o a n a s p e c t o f y o u r t e s t i m o n y la s t ti m e w h i c h h a d t o b e c o n d u c te d a t t h e l e v e l o f a h y p o th e t ic a l . Page 44 of 236 Yo u m i g h t r e c a l l th a t 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 b e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e w e w e r e d e a l in g w i t h y o u r fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts e n d in g F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d w e w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h y o u r e v id e n c e a t th e p a g e o f th o s e fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts w h e r e c a s h a n d c a s h e q u iv a l e n ts i n t h e b u s i n e s s w e r e r e fl e c t e d . D o y o u r e c a l l th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n w e l o o k e d a t t h a t n u m b e r y o u s a id s o m e t h i n g a p p e a r s w r o n g a b o u t i t . D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I s a i d y e s i t d o e s n o t r e f l e c t th e f a c i li t ie s o n the overdraft. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d a n d ju s t i n f a ir n e s s to y o u l e t u s g e t t h a t p a g e Mr N a t a s e n . Yo u w i ll f i n d i t a t p a g e 2 - 1 0 i f m y m e m o r y serves. C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e b a c k to … ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f D D 1 0 A C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n fo r tu n a t e ly w e a r e b a c k t h e r e . A p o lo g ie s and it was page 2-0-7. CHAIRPERSON: 2-0-7? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s . Yo u w il l r e c a l l th e r e a s I r e c a l l y o u r t e s ti m o n y w e lo o k e d d o w n a t t h e b a n k o v e r d r a ft li n e it e m w h i c h w a s a t t h e b o t to m o f t h e p a g e a n d t h a t i s w h e n y o u s a id y o u t h o u g h t t h a t t h e r e w a s a n e r r o r. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And th e n what we d id was we had a h y p o t h e t ic a l e n g a g e m e n t a b o u t if w e c o u l d g e t t h e b a n k s ta t e m e n ts a n d Page 45 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 if th e y c o u l d t e ll u s w h a t th e p o s it i o n w a s a t e n d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d if t h e y s h o w e d t h a t th e r e w a s n o t a n a m o u n t o f 2 . 6 m i ll io n a v a i la b l e to r e p a y Mr Va n W y k a t t h a t p o i n t t h e n it w a s t h e c a s e th a t N e o S o l u t i o n s h a d m a d e u s e o f t h e f u n d s th a t Mr Va n W y k h a d d e p o s i te d w i t h th e c o m p a n y. C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H y p o th e ti c a ll y y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d a n d y o u r a n s w e r in f a ir n e s s t o y o u i n t h e tr a n s c r ip t a t p a g e 1 7 0 li n e 1 2 is y o u s a id : “ Ye s i n th e o r y. ” 10 Correct. Mr Natasen we have … CHAIRPERSON: H a n g o n . R e m e m b e r ju s t t o a r tic u la t e y o u r a n s w e r s s o th e r e c o r d i n g … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O h . In s t e a d o f n o d d i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Because when you nod it does not get (intervenes). M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r N a ta s e n s in c e y o u r l a s t te s ti m o n y w e h a v e b e e n a b l e t o e s ta b l is h w h a t t h e p o s i t io n w a s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e t w o 20 b a n k a c c o u n t s o f N e o S o l u ti o n s a t t h e e n d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 , I c a n ta k e you to those documents. th e y a c tu a lly w e r e a t t a c h e d t o a s e c o n d a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u r e r s t w h i l e a c c o u n t a n t p r o v i d e d to th e C o m m i s s io n w h ic h y o u h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d w i th , l e t’s g o t o t h o s e tw o b a n k s t a te m e n ts i f w e m a y, y o u ’ ll fi n d th e m in D D 1 0 A b u n d l e a n d y o u ’l l fi n d t h e m a t p a g e 2 3 8 .2 0 0 . Page 46 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 CHAIRPERSON: 238.200? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 3 8 .2 0 0 Ye s C h a ir. M r N a ta s e n t h i s is t h e r e c o r d t h a t M r P a t e l i n d i c a t e s h e u s e d in o r d e r t o e s ta b lis h th e p o s i ti o n – c a s h p o s i t io n o f th e b u s i n e s s a t th e e n d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d w h a t is r e l e v a n t i f t h e fi f t h li n e d o w n th e r e b e c a u s e t h a t is t h e b a l a n c e i n t h e a c c o u n t , i f y o u l o o k a t t h e d a t e c o l u m n C h a ir, w h i c h i s t h e s e c o n d fr o m t h e e n d o n t h e r i g h t- h a n d s id e , i f y o u g o d o w n t o th e fi f t h i te m t h a t ’s t h e l a s t r e f le c te d b a l a n c e o n t h e d a t e o f 2 0 1 6 - 0 2 - 2 9 w h ic h I u n d e r s ta n d to be the 29th of February 2016, is that as you understand it Mr 10 Natasen? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d w il l y o u te ll u s w h a t t h e b a l a n c e t h e r e i s in t h e S t a n d a r d B a n k a c c o u n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y t h is o n e h a s b e e n h ig h li g h t e d q u i te a b i t o v e r, I t h i n k i t ’s R 3 8 4 1 8 8 .2 2 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o a b o u t R 3 8 0 0 0 0 w a s s i t ti n g i n t h e Standard Bank account, correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 O k a y. A n d t h e n if y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e in t h e s a m e b u n d l e t h a t ’s t h e p o s i t io n i n th e N e d b a n k a c c o u n t o f N e o S o l u ti o n s a s I h a v e i t a t t h e e n d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 , a n d y o u ’l l fi n d i t ’s t h e la s t l in e it e m o n t h a t p a g e , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. A n d w h a t is t h e b a l a n c e o n th a t d a t e ? Minus R4632 328.23. Page 47 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a n d j u s t t o r e m in d o u r s e lv e s th e r e ’s n o o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty in t h e S t a n d a r d B a n k a c c o u n t a t t h is t i m e c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I ’ m a s s u m i n g s o b e c a u s e o f t h a t e m a il . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s t h a t w a s y o u r te s ti m o n y s o y o u h a d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : There was a point that the Standard Bank f a c i li t ie s w e r e r e - i n s t a te d b u t I’ m n o t s u r e w h e n th a t w a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t b u t a s a t F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 t h e r e ’s o n ly c a s h a v a i la b l e o f R 3 8 4 0 0 0 , c o r r e c t ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : On the Standard Bank account? Ye s . Th a t ’s – b u t I’ m n o t s u r e i f th e r e ’s a n o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o w e ’ v e ju s t c l a r if i e d t h a t in y o u r e v i d e n c e . N o r e m e m b e r w e h a d t e r m i n a te d a n d m o v e d a c r o s s b u t S t a n d a r d B a n k t h e n w o n o u r b u s i n e s s b a c k a n d w e w e r e in t h e p r o c e s s t h e n o f m i g r a ti n g b a c k , h e n c e th e M a r c h m o v e m e n t s w h e r e t h e t r a n s a c t in g h a p p e n e d fr o m S t a n d a r d B a n k . So I’m not sure what t h o s e d a t e s a r e b u t I k n o w a S t a n d a r d B a n k o v e r d r a f t fa c i li ty w a s th e n 20 r e - in s t a t e d a t s o m e p o i n t b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w t h e d a t e o f t h a t h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If w e g e t s o m e i n f o r m a t i o n fr o m S t a n d a r d B a n k a n d th e y in d ic a t e i t w a s n ’ t a v a il a b l e i n Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a t h e n I ’l l c o n c e d e th a t b u t I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e n , a s I’ m s a y i n g I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e n i t w a s r e - i n s t a t e d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f th e r e w a s n ’t a n o v e r d r a f t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 48 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e r e a b o u t s o n th a t t i m e b e c a u s e t h e tr a n s a c ti n g s t a r te d h a p p e n i n g fr o m S t a n d a r d B a n k fr o m M a r c h t h e n e x t p e r i o d o n w a r d , li t e r a l ly a m o n t h a f t e r t h i s , s o I’ m n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t d a t e is , C h a ir, o f w h e n t h e f a c il i ty w a s r e - in s ta t e d w it h Standard Bank. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e f a c i li t y w a s n o t r e - i n s t a t e d o n t h e 2 9 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 , t h e n t h e o n ly c a s h y o u h a v e a v a i l a b l e t o y o u w i t h Standard Bank is R384 000, correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 10 Ye s , i f t h a t ’s t h e c a s e y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n N e d b a n k w h a t w a s y o u r o v e r d r a ft f a c i li ty a t Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t R 5 m ill i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u h a d u s e d u p R 4 .6 m i ll i o n o f t h a t a m o u n t b y th e e n d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Correct. S o t h e r e m a i n i n g a v a il a b l e w o u l d b e a b o u t R 4 0 0 0 0 0 o r a b i t l e s s b e c a u s e t h a t ’s R 4 .6 3 2 m i ll io n c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s . S o i t ’s in t h e o r d e r o f a b o u t R 3 7 0 0 0 0 w o u l d h a v e b e e n a v a i la b l e i n t h e N e d b a n k a c c o u n t, c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o a s a t Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 y o u d id n o t h a v e R 2 . 9 m il li o n r a n d s a v a i la b le t o r e p a y M r Va n W y k , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I f h e p l a c e d a d e m a n d o n t h a t – o n u s a t th a t p o i n t i n t i m e , y e s b u t o u r a b i li t y w i th t h e b a n k s is o b v io u s ly to r e q u e s t Page 49 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t e m p o r a r y f a c il i ti e s w h e n e v e r w e h a v e p r o j e c t d e m a n d s , s o w e d o , d o t h a t a s a m a t t e r o f c o u r s e a ll t h e ti m e . So had he come through and r e q u e s t e d f u n d s o n s h o r t n o t ic e w e w o u l d h a v e m a d e a n a p p lic a ti o n and got an extension against it. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e t h in g w e ’r e i n te r e s t e d i n a t t h e m o m e n t M r N a t a s e n is w h e th e r N e o S o l u t i o n s , t h e c o m p a n y m a d e u s e o f th e R 9 . 9 m il li o n t h a t w a s d e p o s i t e d w i th i t in N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 6 a n d w h a t w e – I w a n t t o p u t to y o u h a v e e s ta b l is h e d w i t h t h e s e t w o b a n k s t a t e m e n t s is t h a t b y th e e n d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 y o u h a d u s e d , a s a b u s in e s s , t h e b u lk 10 o f th e R 9 .9 m i ll io n b e c a u s e a v a il a b l e t o y o u a t t h a t s t a g e a s a l e v e l o f c a s h w a s R 3 0 0 0 0 0 s i t ti n g i n t h e S t a n d a r d B a n k a c c o u n t a n d a b o u t R 3 7 0 0 0 0 s i t t in g i n th e N e d b a n k a c c o u n t, d o y o u a g r e e w i th t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e d i d n o t m a k e u s e o f th e R 9 . 9 m il li o n b e c a u s e t h e s e f u n d s w e r e r e t u r n e d t o h i m a m o n t h l a t e r, a b u lk o f t h e f u n d s w e r e r e t u r n e d t o h i m s o a s a t t h e y e a r e n d b a l a n c e th e r e w a s a n a m o u n t o f R 2 . 6 mi ll i o n t h a t s t il l n e e d e d to b e r e t u r n e d to h i m . S o a s I s a i d a lr e a d y, if h e h a d a p p r o a c h e d u s t o r e q u e s t t h o s e f u n d s b a c k I w o u ld h a v e b e e n a b l e t o o b v i o u s ly a d ju s t m y f a c il it i e s a n d r e t u r n h is m o n e y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n I a c c e p t w h a t y o u ’v e s a i d I w a n t t o k n o w w h e th e r t h e m o n i e s w e r e u s e d t o f u n d t h e c a s h f lo w o f N e o S o lu t io n s b e t w e e n N o v e m b e r o f 2 0 1 5 a n d t h e 2 9 t h o f Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 , t h a t ’s r e a l ly w h a t I ’ m in t e r e s t e d in . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : The funds were not in a ring-fenced account so b y v e r y n a tu r e t h e y a r e p a r t o f o u r o p e r a ti o n s , s o a s I s a id i f h e h a d Page 50 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a p p r o a c h e d u s t o s a y, c a n I h a v e m y m o n e y b a c k to m o r r o w w e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b le t o r e t u r n t h e s e m o n i e s b y a d j u s t in g o u r f a c il it i e s a c c o r d i n g l y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e y w e r e u s e d to f u n d th e c a s h f lo w o f the business between November 2015…[intervenes]. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : No I’m not saying that they were inside our o p e r a ti o n a l c a s h f lo w o f t h e b u s i n e s s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e n o t i n a r i n g fenced bank account. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 E x p l a i n t o m e t h e d i ffe r e n c e , th e f u n d s a r e b e i n g … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Yo u a r e tr y i n g t o i m p ly, w i t h d u e r e s p e c t , y o u a r e tr y i n g t o i m p ly t h a t I u s e d h is m o n e y t o r u n m y b u s i n e s s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : R ig h t? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t is n o t th e c a s e , th e f u n d s w e r e s i tt i n g i n o u r o p e r a ti o n a l b a n k a c c o u n t s , a s I s a i d I a l w a y s u n d e r s t o o d t h a t to b e h is m o n e y s o i f h e e v e r a p p r o a c h e d m e t o r e tu r n h is m o n e y i t w o u l d have been returned. 20 It was not a decision where we would use his m o n e y t o k e e p N e o a s a c o m p a n y a l iv e , th a t w a s n o t th e r e , a n d I d o n ’t a p p r e c ia t e y o u tr y i n g t o i n s in u a te t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n j u s t tr y in g to u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n o f y o u r b u s i n e s s b e t w e e n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a p p r e c i a t e y o u u n d e r s t a n d in g – I a p p r e c ia t e t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g b u t t o i m p l y t h a t w e m a n i p u l a te d t h e s i tu a ti o n t o Page 51 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 u til is e th a t c a s h f l o w, i t ’s n o t c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: M is s H o f m e y r w i ll d e a l w i t h th e q u e s t io n t h e w a y s h e d e c i d e s to d e a l w i t h i t b u t I t h i n k w h a t s h e – w h a t b o t h o f y o u a c c e p t is t h a t a t a c e r ta i n ti m e , a n d th e r e w a s l e s s m o n e y i n t h e b a n k a c c o u n t th a n s h o u l d h a v e b e e n th e r e i f – in o r d e r to m e e t a n y r e q u e s t fr o m Mr v a n W y k fo r t h a t p a y m e n t w i t h o u t h a v in g t o m a k e o th e r a r r a n g e m e n ts w i t h t h e b a n k , I t h i n k b o t h o f y o u a c c e p t th a t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . J a t h a t a t a c e r t a i n t i m e th e r e w a s n ’ t e n o u g h m o n e y in t h e a c c o u n t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O u r li m i t s a r e f le x ib le , C h a ir, w e a r e a p r o j e c ts business so if I land a large project I sit with the bank and I adjust my li m i ts a c c o r d i n g ly t o b e a b le t o s e r v ic e a p r o j e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o i f t h e r e ’s a n y c h a n g e in m y fa c i li ty r e q u ir e m e n t s I s i t w i th t h e b a n k . I f w e s e t u p f a c il it y, l e t’s s a y R 1 0 m i ll io n th e n t h e b a n k s a b o u t f o u r /f i v e y e a r s a g o i n tr o d u c e d a c h a r g e f o r u n u t il is e d p o r t io n o f o v e r d r a f t li m i ts . S o w e h a v e a p o lic y t h a t w e s i t w i th t h e m a n d w e w o r k o u t th e l i m i ts a t e a c h p o i n t i n t i m e . 20 S o h a d v a n W y k a p p r o a c h e d m e t o s a y, I d o r e q u ir e m y m o n e y n o w I w o u ld h a v e th e n g o n e t o t h e b a n k a n d s a y, c a n I a d ju s t m y li m i t a c c o r d i n g l y s o t h a t I d o n ’ t p a y t h a t f e e f o r t h e u n u ti li s e d p o r t i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n d I t h i n k M is s H o f m e y r a ls o u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t . A s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n b o t h o f y o u a c c e p t t h a t a t a c e r t a in ti m e t h e a m o u n t th a t w a s i n th e b a n k Page 52 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 account would not have been enough to repay Mr van Wyk without you h a v i n g t o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n t s w i th t h e b a n k . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: Correct. B o t h o f y o u a c c e p t t h a t, b o t h o f y o u a ls o a c c e p t , d o n ’t y o u , t h a t t h e m o n e y in t h e a c c o u n t h a d b e e n u s e d fo r t h e b u s i n e s s o f t h e – f o r t h e b u s i n e s s , y o u b o t h a c c e p t th a t , is t h a t r i g h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: T h e y s a t w i t h i n t h e o p e r a t i o n a l a c c o u n t, y e s . Ye s w h a t e v e r m o n e y, y o u k n o w a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i s y o u d i d n ’ t p u t M r v a n W y k ’s m o n e y a s i d e it w a s m ix e d u p s o 10 t o s p e a k w i t h … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: C o r r e c t w e ju s t k e p t a r e c o n c i li a ti o n a c c o u n t . Ye s a n d t h a t m i x e d u p m o n e y i f y o u k n o w w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d w a s u s e d fo r o p e r a t io n s o f t h e b u s i n e s s b u t I th i n k w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y i s , i n u s in g t h e m o n e y in t h e a c c o u n t y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e in m i n d t h a t I ’ m n o w u s i n g v a n W y k ’s m o n e y, w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is , y o u knew that there is money that may have to be refunded to …[intervenes]. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: 20 A ll p l a c e d i n to t h e fa r m in g v e n t u r e . A n d y o u t o o k c o m f o r t i n th e k n o w l e d g e t h a t y o u c o u l d g o to t h e b a n k a n y t i m e a n d i f h e n e e d e d h is m o n e y a n d t h e n b e able to pay him. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: Correct. J a b u t w h a t I t h in k y o u a r e n o t d e n y in g is th a t t h e m ix e d m o n e y w a s u s e d f o r th e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e b u s in e s s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a t h e y s a t in t h e o p e r a ti o n a l a c c o u n ts . Page 53 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f t h a t h a s h e l p e d ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: I t h a s in d e e d C h a ir, I’ m i n d e b te d . Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a ta s e n w h y d i d n ’ t y o u p u t in a s e p a r a t e a c c o u n t i f y o u w a n t e d to id e n ti fy i t a s n o t a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h e b u s i n e s s of Neo Solutions? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g a t t h e t i m e w a s t h a t th e f u n d s w e r e g o i n g t o g o q u i te q u ic k ly t o t h e f a r m in g v e n t u r e s o n o s e p a r a t e m o n e y m a r k e t a c c o u n t w a s s e t u p f o r t h a t. T h e i n te n ti o n w a s , 10 it w a s n ’t g o in g t o l a s t t h a t l o n g i n th e a c c o u n t a n d o b v io u s ly t h e v e n tu r e t o o k l o n g e r t h a n p la n n e d a n d h e h a d d r a w n b y t h e n , s o i t j u s t b e c a m e a c o m e d y o f e r r o r s i n n o t a c h ie v i n g t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o i t w a s c o n t e m p la t e d i n th e a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h h i m t h a t i t c o u l d b e p l a c e d i n t h e o p e r a ti o n a l a c c o u n t o f th e b u s i n e s s a n d w o u ld b e u til is e d b y t h e b u s i n e s s in t h e in t e r i m a n d a s a n d w h e n h e n e e d e d i t r e p a id y o u ’ d m a k e a r r a n g e m e n t s f o r t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l th e in t e n ti o n w a s t o p u t i t t o f a r m in g , t h e f a r m in g v e n t u r e o r t h e b u s i n e s s v e n t u r e . W h e n h e s ta r t e d t o c o l l e c t o r r e tr i e v e m o n e y b a c k t o h i m s e l f t h a t th e n c h a n g e d th a t s c e n a r io b u t i t 20 w a s n o t a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t i t w o u l d b e u s e d i n N e o ’s o p e r a ti o n s i t w a s n e i th e r d i s c u s s e d n o r a g r e e d i t j u s t h a p p e n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w o u ld n ’t y o u h a v e w a n te d t o e n s u r e t h a t it w a s k e p t s e p a r a t e u n le s s i t w a s g o i n g to b e u ti lis e d b y t h e b u s in e s s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e h a d a r e c o n c il ia ti o n r u n n in g e it h e r w a y w a s fi n e it w a s n o t th e i n t e n ti o n t o u til is e i t b y th e b u s in e s s it w a s t h a t w e Page 54 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w o u ld ta k e i t w e w o u l d t h e n g o i n t o t h e b u s in e s s t o g e t h e r h e w o u l d tr a n s fe r a c r o s s a n d t h a t ti m i n g w a s n o t e x p e c te d t o b e a n y l o n g p e r i o d o f t i m e a t t h e ti m e w h e n w e s ta r t e d t h is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s a m a t t e r o f f a c t th o u g h y o u d i d n ’ t ta k e s t e p s to e n s u r e t h a t it w a s n ’ t u s e d b y t h e b u s i n e s s , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o a s I s a id it w a s n ’ t c o n te m p l a te d . W h a t w a s n o t c o n te m p l a t e d ? That it was going to be there for any long p e r i o d o f ti m e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , M r N a t a s e n I’ d th e n l ik e t o g o t o t h e f a c il it y a g r e e m e n ts t h a t y o u h a d w it h N e d b a n k a t t h e ti m e b e c a u s e t h a t ’s t h e o n e t h a t a p p li e d th e R 5 m il li o n o v e r d r a f t fa c i li ty a n d y o u ’ ll fi n d th a t in E x h i b it D D 1 0 B – O h C h a ir I s e e w e ’ r e j u s t b e f o r e t h e t e a b r e a k , it is a t o p ic w i t h a n e w d o c u m e n t , m a y b e i t m a k e s s e n s e t o ta k e t h e b r e a k n o w a n d t h e n w e c a n fi n d t h o s e d o c u m e n ts o v e r t h e b r e a k . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y w e ’ ll t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e a t half past eleven, we adjourn. REGISTRAR: A l l r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS 20 INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. W e w e r e g o i n g t o l o o k a t t h e o v e r d r a f t f a c il it y a g r e e m e n t w i th N e o S o l u ti o n s a n d N e d b a n k a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h a t i n D D 1 0 b a t p a g e 4 4 2 . 1 3 7 . CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat the page? Page 55 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 4 4 2 . 1 3 7 . CHAIRPERSON: 442. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 1 3 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 3 7 . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a ta s e n c a n y o u e x p l a i n w h a t t h is d o c u m e n t is ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t i s t h e a g r e e m e n t f o r th e o v e r d r a f t f a c i li t y w i th Nedbank. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 A n d th a t is a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n w h i c h e n t i ti e s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N e o S o l u ti o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d N e d b a n k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I s e e a d a te a t th e t o p o f p a g e 4 4 2 . 1 3 7 w h a t i s t h a t d a te ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t i s Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u g o o v e r t o t h e e n d o f t h a t d o c u m e n t w h ic h y o u w il l fi n d a t 4 4 2 . 1 4 2 is th a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e s o r t o f a th ir d o f t h e w a y d o w n t h e p a g e a n d t h e n i n th e m i d d l e o f t h e p a g e ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n y o u c o n fi r m t h a t t h is w a s t h e o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty a g r e e m e n t i n p l a c e b e t w e e n N e o S o lu t io n s a n d N e d b a n k fr o m February 2015? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d if y o u c a n t e l l u s c o n s i s te n t Page 56 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w i t h y o u r e v id e n c e p r e v i o u s ly a t c l a u s e 3 i t i n d ic a t e s w h a t t h e a m o u n t o f t h e o v e r d r a f t f a c il i ty is , w h a t i s t h a t r e f l e c t e d t h e r e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t i s R 5 m il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n c a n I s u g g e s t y o u b r i n g th e m ic r o p h o n e j u s t a b i t c l o s e r s o t h a t f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s s u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is c l e a r. S o y o u i n d ic a t e d t h e o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty w a s R 5 m i ll io n , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : R 5 m il li o n . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n i f w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o .138. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I h a v e ju s t s e e n i t . I d i d n o t s e e a t t h e ti m e t h e r e fe r e n c e to R 5 mi ll i o n b u t I h a v e ju s t s e e n i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s c l a u s e 3 . 1 . 1 f o r t h e r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d if w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o 4 4 2 . 1 3 8 I w o u ld lik e t o l o o k a t t h e la s t c l a u s e o n th a t p a g e t h a t r e a d s o th e r c o n d it i o n s . C a n y o u r e a d fo r u s t h e o th e r c o n d i ti o n a t c la u s e 8 .1 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . O k a y i t is : “ F u l l tr a n s a c t i o n a l b a n k i n g i t is o f t h e r e i t i s r e d a c te d a n d th e n N e o S o l u ti o n s m o v e s th e N e d b a n k w it h a Page 57 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 n i n e t y d a y s o f a c c e p t a n c e o f t h is o ff e r. ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o th a t s e e m s t o a c c o r d w it h y o u r p r e v i o u s t e s ti m o n y, is t h a t c o r r e c t? T h a t y o u h a d to m o v e y o u r tr a n s a c t i o n a l b a n k i n g f a c il i ti e s fr o m S t a n d a r d B a n k to N e d b a n k i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h is a g r e e m e n t , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e r e w a s th a t e m a il s a y i n g i n J u l y 2 0 1 5 t h a t w e lo o k e d a t th a t w e m o v i n g i t a c r o s s . S o d i d y o u c o m p ly w i th t h is r e q u ir e m e n t ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Correct. W e l l o v e r t i m e w e w e r e tr y i n g t o c o m p ly b u t m o v in g o r c h a n g i n g t h e b a n k d e t a ils w i th m o s t o f o u r g o v e r n m e n t c l i e n ts w a s v e r y d i ffic u lt s o w e w e r e i n c o n s t a n t e m a i l c o m m u n ic a ti o n s w i t h N e d b a n k e x p l a in in g w h e r e t h e r e w e r e p r o b l e m s a l t e r i n g t h e i n fo r m a ti o n t o c h a n g e i t t o N e d b a n k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n o v e r t h e p a g e a t 4 4 2 . 1 3 9 y o u w il l s e e t h e r e t h e r e i s a c l a u s e 11 . 1 . 2 , d o y o u s e e t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 11 .1 . 2 y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s u n d e r a h e a d i n g c a l le d U n d e r t a k i n g s a n d i f I m a y j u s t r e a d t h a t c l a u s e t o y o u ? It s a y s : 20 “The borrowers hereby u n c o n d i ti o n a l ly and ir r e v o c a b ly u n d e r ta k e a n d th e n i f y o u p i c k i t u p a t s u b 2 to f u r n is h N e d b a n k w i th t h e m a n a g e m e n t a c c o u n t s o f th e b o r r o w e r a n d a n y s e c u r i ty p r o v i d e r o n a q u a r t e r ly b a s is a s s o o n a s th e y b e c o m e a v a i la b le a n d i n a n y e v e n t w i th i n 3 0 d a y s a f te r t h e Page 58 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 end of the period to w h ic h such m anagement a c c o u n t s r e la t e . ” Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I s e e th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u c o m p ly w i t h t h a t r e q u ir e m e n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k w e w e r e p r o v id i n g th e m i n s t e a d w i t h a p r o j e c t s c h e d u l e s h o w in g w h a t p r o je c t s w e w e r e b u s y w i th , w h a t in c o m e i s c o m i n g fr o m t h e p r o j e c t w h ic h t h e y a c c e p te d i n s t e a d o f t h is . t h e m in s te a d w i t h a p r o j e c t s c h e d u l e s h o w i n g w h a t p r o j e c ts w e 10 w e r e b u s y w i t h , w h a t i n c o m e is c o mi n g fr o m t h e p r o j e c t w h ic h t h e y a c c e p te d i n s t e a d o f t h i s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d is t h e r e s o m e a m e n d m e n t to th is a g r e e m e n t t o th a t e ffe c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o i t w a s n o t a m e n d e d I th i n k w e h a d s u b m i t t e d t h o s e a n d w h e n e v e r th e y r e q u e s te d in f o r m a t io n o f w h a t i n c o m i n g c a s h fl o w s th e r e a r e w e h a d s u b m i t t e d t h a t a n d t h e y a c c e p t e d t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d y o u d o t h a t o n a q u a r te r ly b a s is ? W h a t was the arrangement? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s a m o n t h ly b a s i s th a t th e y w o u l d s u b m i t – 20 t h a t th e a c c o u n t a n t s w o u l d s u b mi t t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w o u l d th e r e b e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o t h a t e ffe c t w h e r e t h e y w e r e s a tis f i e d t h a t 11 . 1 .2 w a s c o m p l i e d w i th a l b e i t t h a t m a n a g e m e n t a c c o u n ts w e r e n o t p r o v id e d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I am not sure. T h e a c c o u n t in g o ffi c e w o u l d d e a l w it h th e b a n k – t h e b u s i n e s s b a n k e r a n d th e y w o u l d e it h e r m e e t o r Page 59 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 d is c u s s i t a n d t h e y w o u l d s h a r e t h e s c h e d u le o u t . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e y e v e r c o m p la in t h a t y o u h a d n o t c o m p li e d w i t h t h is c o n d i ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o n o t th a t I a m a w a r e t o m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r N a ta s e n y o u w i ll r e c a ll t h a t o n y o u r p r e v i o u s d a y o f t e s t i m o n y w e h a d t o w o r k w i t h th e h y p o t h e t ic a l a b o u t w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n w a s a t t h e e n d o f F e b r u a r y a n d t h a n k f u l ly t o d a y w i t h t h e a s s is t a n c e o f t h e b a n k s t a te m e n t s w e h a v e b e e n a b l e t o 10 c o n fir m w h a t t h e a c t u a l p o s it i o n w a s b e c a u s e y o u h a d in d i c a t e d i n y o u r t e s ti m o n y th a t t h e r e w a s a n e r r o r i n t h e fi n a n c i a l s t h a t w e w e r e w o r k in g f o r – f o r 2 0 1 6 a t th e ti m e , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n t h e r e w a s a n o b j e c t io n a t a p o i n t i n t h a t e v i d e n c e fr o m y o u r le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e a s t o w h a t t h e r e l e v a n c e w o u ld b e if t h e r e h a d b e e n u s e m a d e o f th e fu n d s t h a t w e r e r e c e iv e d b y N e o S o lu t io n s fr o m M r Va n W y k , d o y o u r e c a l l th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 I w o u ld li k e t o i n c o n c l u s i o n o n t h is a s p e c t e x p l a i n t o y o u th a t r e l e v a n c e b u t b e f o r e w e d o t h a t if w e c a n ju s t c o n fir m w it h y o u g i v e n e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y o u n o w k n o w a b o u t t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h K o r e n e k a r e c e iv e d t h e f u n d s a n d t h e n M r Va n W y k w a n te d t o p l a c e th e m w i th N e o S o l u ti o n s i s i t y o u r v i e w a s y o u s i t h e r e t o d a y t h a t th o s e fu n d s w e r e i n v o l v e d in u n la w f u l a c ti v i ti e s p r i o r t o t h e m c o m i n g t o N e o S o l u ti o n s ? Page 60 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S i t ti n g h e r e to d a y y e s b u t a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e I was not aware. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o in d e e d . I a m s i m p ly a s k i n g to d a y y o u d o take that view? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d y o u e v e n I t h i n k to o k th a t v i e w a f te r s o m e o f t h i s w a s d is c l o s e d t o y o u b y Mr J u d i e l a n d t h a t is w h y I h a v e it y o u h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h Mr Va n W y k th a t y o u e n d e a v o u r e d to r e c o r d a t a p o i n t i n th e m i d d le o f 2 0 1 8 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d i d n o t e n d e a v o u r I a c tu a l ly r e c o r d e d it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g ie s y o u s u c c e s s f u lly r e c o r d e d i n d e e d b u t a s I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v id e n c e o n t h a t r e c o r d i n g i t w a s b e c a u s e y o u w e r e s o c o n c e r n e d t o h a v e l e a r n t a t t h a t p o i n t a b o u t th e u n l a w fu l n e s s o f t h e a c t iv i t ie s t h a t p r o d u c e d th o s e fu n d s th a t y o u w e r e in e s s e n c e tr y i n g t o g e t M r Va n W y k t o c o n fir m t h a t y o u h a d n o k n o w l e d g e o f t h a t u n l a w f u l n e s s , is t h a t a f a ir s u m m a r y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e w a y i t tr a n s p i r e d w a s t h a t w h e n I b e c a m e a w a r e th a t t h e f u n d s r e c e iv e d fr o m K o r e n e k a w e r e n o t le t u s u s e t h e w o r d k o s h e r I – I t h e n c o o p e r a t e d w i th J u d i e l a n d t h e a u t h o r i t ie s i n 20 o r d e r t o p r o v i d e a l l t h e i n f o r m a ti o n to s h o w t h a t w e w e r e u n a w a r e a t t h e t i m e , w e w e r e n o t c o m p lic i t a t t h e t i m e a n d w e w e r e i n a d v e r t e n tly u s e d b y Va n W y k t o m o v e t h o s e m o n i e s t h r o u g h u s . b a s is o f h o w th e 2 0 4 c a m e a b o u t . A n d th a t is th e Th e r e w a s n o i n te r a c t i o n w i t h Va n W y k a t t h e t i m e h e th e n c a ll e d m e i n M a y o f 2 0 1 8 a n d t h a t is w h e n I c h o s e t o r e c o r d t h e c a ll a n d o b v io u s ly th r o u g h t h a t h i m t o a d m i t th a t I Page 61 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t t h a t w a s s t a te m o n e y a t th e ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d l ik e t o th e n g o t o t h e l e g i s l a ti o n b u n d l e w h ic h I d e a r l y h o p e h a s b e e n m a d e a v a il a b l e to y o u t h e r e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t th e C h a i r h a s a c o p y w h ic h c o u l d b e handed to him. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e r e i s o n e w it h m y t r a n s c r i p ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h s o r r y i t d i d c o m e u p i n th e b r e a k I requested it. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e c o u ld ju s t h a n d i t t o y o u . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A r e w e d o n e w i t h D D 1 0 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e a t t h e m o m e n t w e w i ll g o to t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e P r e v e n t io n o f O r g a n is e d C r i m e A c t. I t i s a – i t is a p i e c e o f l e g is la t io n w e l o o k e d a t l a s t t i m e a n d y o u w i ll f in d t h e r e le v a n t page at 17. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I t h i n k I h a v e n o t b e e n f u r n is h e d w it h i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u a r e s t il l l o o k i n g f o r i t o k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . CHAIRPERSON: S o I f o r g o t th a t h e h a s g o t s o m e t h e r e . But on the s p i n e i t w o u l d b e w r i tt e n l e g is la t io n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e i s w a i t in g fo r t h e p a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I d o n o t k n o w i f s h e h a s m e n ti o n e d th e p a g e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e p a g e is p a g e 1 7 , 1 7 . Page 62 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l s e e th a t t h is is a p a g e w i th in t h e c o p y o f t h e P r e v e n ti o n o f O r g a n is e d C r i m e A c t t h a t h a s b e e n p l a c e d i n t h e le g i s l a ti o n b u n d l e . C h a ir fo r th e r e c o r d th a t b e g in s a t p a g e 11 b u t w h a t w e a r e fo c u s s i n g o n i s t h e p r o v is io n th a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n t h e l a s t o c c a s io n o f y o u r e v i d e n c e w e lo o k e d b o t h a t S e c ti o n 4 w h i c h d e a l t w i t h m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g a n d w e lo o k e d a t S e c ti o n 5 w h ic h d e a l t w i th a s s i s t in g a n o th e r to b e n e fi t fr o m 10 t h e p r o c e e d s o f u n l a w fu l a c t iv it y. W h a t I w o u ld lik e to lo o k a t t o d a y is S e c t io n 6 w h ic h d e a ls w i th t h e a c q u i s it io n p o s s e s s i o n o r u s e o f p r o c e e d s o f u n l a w f u l a c tiv i ti e s . A n d w h a t I a m i n t e r e s t in g in t h e r e i s sub B. I f I m a y j u s t r e a d t h a t i n t o th e r e c o r d a n d t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e q u e s t io n s . M r N a ta s e n t h a t s e c t io n p r o v i d e s th a t “ A n y p e r s o n w h o u s e s p r o p e r ty a n d w h o k n o w s o r ought reasonably to have known that it is or forms p a r t o f th e p r o c e e d s o f u n l a w f u l a c t iv i t ie s s h a l l b e g u il ty o f a n o ffe n c e . ” Do you see that? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t in d i c a t e s t h a t u s e o f a n y p r o c e e d s o f u n l a w f u l a c t iv i t ie s w h ic h o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n k n o w n to b e l a w fu l a c ti v i ti e s w i ll c o n s t it u t e a n o ff e n c e , is t h a t a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l a s i t is s t a te d h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . A n d th e n t o r o u n d u p i n r e l a ti o n t o my Page 63 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 le a r n e d fr ie n d ’s c o n c e r n l a s t n i g h t – l a s t o c c a s i o n t h e r e a s o n f o r p r o b in g w it h y o u in f a i r n e s s to y o u w h e t h e r N e o S o lu t io n s h a d m a d e a n y u s e o f t h e f u n d s t h a t i t r e c e iv e d fr o m K o r e n e k a a n d M r Va n W y k r e l a t e s d ir e c tl y t o S e c t io n 6 . B e c a u s e S e c ti o n 6 s a y s : “ A n y p e r s o n w h o u s e s t h e p r o c e e d s w h ic h t h e y k n o w o r o u g h t r e a s o n a b l e t o h a v e k n o w n to b e t h e p r o c e e d s o f u n l a w f u l a c ti v i ti e s w il l b e g u i lt y o f a n o ff e n c e . ” Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I u n d e r s t a n d t h e b a s i s o f y o u r a is in g i t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M r N a t a s e n I w o u l d th e n li k e t o g o ju s t f o r a m o m e n t t o y o u r 2 0 4 s t a t e m e n t . B e c a u s e I m u s t c o n f e s s w e h a d r e c e iv e d y o u r a ffi d a v i t – y o u r 1 2 J u ly a ffi d a v i t m a y b e f o r ty m i n u t e s b e f o r e t h e e v i d e n c e s t a r t e d la s t t i m e o n t h e 1 2 J u ly a n d a l b e i t t h a t I h a d b e e n a b l e t o l o o k a t i t v e r y q u ic k ly I h a v e s u b s e q u e n t ly b e e n a b l e t o l o o k a t it i n a b i t m o r e d e t a i l i n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r t o d a y. A n d s o t h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o a s p e c ts t h a t I j u s t n e e d t o p ic k u p o n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h a t s t a te m e n t . Yo u w i ll f i n d i t r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f E x h i b i t D D 1 0 a . M r N a t a s e n y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e l a s t ti m e a b o u t h o w th is s t a te m e n t c a m e t o b e p r e p a r e d a n d s i g n e d , d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e a n d w e c a n f in d i t i n t h e tr a n s c r i p t i f i t is r e l e v a n t to d o s o b u t I r e c a ll y o u a s h a v in g s a i d i n y o u r te s t i m o n y t h a t M r J u d ie l o b t a i n e d t h e b a n k s t a te m e n ts fr o m y o u r a c c o u n t s t e a m a n d t h a t h e t h e n p r e p a r e d t h e d r a f t. H e c a m e a n d s a t w i t h y o u a n d t h e n y o u s a i d w e o b v io u s ly r e a d i t a n d I c o n c u r r e d w i t h i t Page 64 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a n d t h a t is t h e a ff id a v i t I d e p o s e d . Yo u d i d n o t a d d t o o n t h e tr a n s c r i p t b u t I a m s u r e th a t w a s i n te n d e d . Is th a t a s I r e c a ll y o u r e v i d e n c e correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o j u s t t e l l m e w h e r e d id y o u m e e t w i t h M r J u d i e l w h e n y o u w e n t t h r o u g h t h is ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e h a d c o m e th r o u g h t o o u r o ffic e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a r e t h o s e t h e o ffic e s in R iv o n ia ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u – y o u t h e n s a id t h a t y o u k n e w t h a t h e w a s a p r i v a t e i n v e s t ig a t o r, is th a t r i g h t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I u n d e r s ta n d i t y o u h a d a c t u a ll y p u t Mr Va n W y k o n t o M r J u d i e l a t a p o i n t w h e r e h e w a s e n q u ir in g a b o u t t h e s e r v ic e s o f a p r i v a t e i n v e s t ig a t o r, is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t i s n o t c o r r e c t i t w a s Vi ll a w h o w a s o n e o f o u r e m p lo y e e s a t th e ti m e w h o r e c o m m e n d e d J u d i e l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o ju s t t e l l m e h o w th a t c a m e u p ? H o w d i d M r Va n W y k e n g a g e w i t h y o u o r y o u r b u s i n e s s a t a ll a b o u t a p r iv a t e 20 in v e s t i g a t o r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o Vil la S t e i n b e r g w a s o n e o f t h e p e o p le w o r k i n g o n th e f a r m in g b u s i n e s s c a s e a n d [i n t e r v e n t io n ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y a n d is t h a t p e r s o n – c a n I j u s t h a v e th e name again? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Vi l la S t e in b e r g . Page 65 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S t e i n b e r g is t h a t p e r s o n e m p lo y e d in N e o S o lu t io n s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e w a s a t th e ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e t i m e th a n k y o u . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S p e c i fi c a ll y f o r t h e fa r m in g v e n t u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a n d h o w d o e s it c o m e a b o u t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o w h e n Va n W y k s a id t h a t h e h a d a n i s s u e w i t h h i s b u s i n e s s p a r t n e r a n d h e w a s l o o k in g f o r a p r i v a t e in v e s ti g a t o r t h e n S t e in b e r g – m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s S t e i n b e r g h a d r e c o m m e n d e d 10 Judiel. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d id y o u k n o w th a t a t t h e ti m e o f th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I f o u n d o u t i n p a s s in g . I a m n o t s u r e w h e n th e y d is c u s s e d i t b u t I f o u n d o u t i n p a s s i n g d u r i n g , o n o r a b o u t t h a t t i m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d th a t p r e c e d e w h e n M r J u d i e l s ta r t e d to e n g a g e y o u a b o u t t h e S e c t i o n 2 0 4 s t a te m e n t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , n o th a t w a s m u c h e a r li e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. S o t h e r e i s a lr e a d y a r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n Mr Va n W y k a n d M r J u d ie l p u r s u a n t to s o m e b o d y i n y o u r 20 c o m p a n y p u t ti n g t h e m t o g e t h e r, C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n a t a l a t e r p o i n t y o u e n g a g e w i th M r J u d i e l a b o u t th e S e c ti o n 2 0 4 s t a t e m e n t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W h e n h e a p p r o a c h e d m e in O c to b e r o f 2 0 1 7 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f 2 0 1 7 ? Page 66 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d d o y o u r e c a ll h a v i n g p a i d Mr J u d i e l a n a m o u n t i n r e c o m p e n s e fo r h i s w o r k o n d r a f ti n g t h e a ff id a v i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I w a s a w a r e t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o in v o ic e fo r tr a v e l e x p e n s e s t o c o m e th r o u g h a n d o b v i o u s l y o b t a i n t h e a ff id a v i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w a s h e p a i d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I believe so I m ean I cannot say yes or no. { in d is ti n c t ] b u t I a m a s s u mi n g h e w a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l j u s t – j u s t h e lp m e w i th t h a t b e c a u s e t h a t 10 w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t y o u g a v e t o t h e c o m m is s i o n a t o n e o f y o u r m e e ti n g s w i t h t h e m , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s I s a i d h e w a s g o i n g t o i n v o i c e f o r i t . I a m not sure – if you are asking me if he was paid I cannot – I cannot say that yes or no here. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e n o t c o n f ir m e d t h a t r i g h t . Do you r e c a l l b e in g a s k e d f o r th e c o n fir m a t io n o f t h a t p a y m e n t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s I t h i n k s o y o u d i d a s k in t h a t – i n th a t s e s s i o n o r t h e c o m m i s s io n d i d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s t h e r e w a s a ls o a s u b s e q u e n t e m a il r e q u ir i n g y o u t o p r o v i d e it . D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y I t h i n k i t m u s t b e th e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h a v e y o u t a k e n a n y s t e p s t o e s ta b l is h whether he was paid? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e n o t s i n c e n o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i t w o u ld n o t s u r p r is e y o u i f h e w a s b e c a u s e Page 67 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h a t w a s t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f th e a r r a n g e m e n t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : If – t h a t w a s t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g . He did in d i c a t e h e w a n t e d t o b e s e t tl e d f o r h is tr a v e l a n d d i s b u r s e m e n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. D i d t h a t s tr i k e y o u a s o d d t h a t a s t a te m e n t t h a t h a s t o b e p r e p a r e d u n d e r t h e p r o v is i o n s o f Th e C r i mi n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t c o u ld b e t h e s u b je c t m a t t e r o f a p a y m e n t to s o m e o n e w h o w o u ld p r e p a r e i t f o r y o u ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s n o t t h a t h e w a s b e i n g r e m u n e r a te d f o r t h e s e r v ic e h e w a s b e i n g r e i m b u r s e d f o r h is tr a v e l c o s ts o f g o in g b a c k 10 a n d fo r th . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w a s s i m p ly c o n f in e d t o h i s tr a v e l. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To R iv o n i a . D i d h e h a v e t o tr a v e l fa r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g h e r e s i d e s in t h e W e s t R a n d a n d o b v io u s ly h e w a s e n g a g i n g b e t w e e n th e D C P I in R u s t e n b u r g o r N o r th W e s t Pr o v in c e a n d t h e r e . So the amount of – I think he in d i c a t e d a r o u n d R 1 0 0 0 0 f o r d is b u r s e m e n t s f o r t r a v e ll in g b a c k a n d f o r th it d i d n o t lo o k u n r e a s o n a b le . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 O k a y. R 1 0 0 0 0 f o r tr a v e l li n g b a c k a n d fo r t h . D i d h e d o s o q u i t e a fe w ti m e s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m – w e l l I d id n o t – I w a s n o t a w a r e h o w m a n y t i m e s b u t o b v io u s ly h e h a d t o e n g a g e w i t h t h e a c c o u n ta n ts t o o b t a i n t h e d a ta s o i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a fe w ti m e s t h a t h e w o u ld h a v e to tr a v e l b a c k a n d fo r t h C h a ir. A s w e l l a s o b v io u s ly h e a d o u t to th e N o r t h W e s t o r R u s te n b u r g – I b e l ie v e t h e y w e r e b a s e d i n R u s te n b u r g . Page 68 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n y o u m e t w i t h h i m o n th a t d a y a t y o u r o ffic e s c a n y o u j u s t t a k e u s t h r o u g h it . I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e l a s t ti m e w a s th a t h e h a d p r e p a r e d t h e d r a f t , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y y o u r e a d t h r o u g h i t a n d y o u s a ti s f i e d y o u r s e lf a s t o i ts c o n te n ts , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u s a i d y o u d e p o s e d t o i t , is th a t correct? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w d id y o u d e p o s e t o i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W i t h h is a t t o r n e y o b v i o u s ly. T h e l a s ti m e . R e m e m b e r th e fir s t t i m e w e h a d d o n e t h e d r a f t a n d t h e n w h e n h e c a m e through to depose then he had – he had a person on hand. I cannot r e c a l l th e p e r s o n ’s n a m e . I t w il l b e o n t h e a ffi d a v i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e b r o u g h t s o m e b o d y w i t h h i m fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f h a v in g y o u d e p o s e t o t h e a ff id a v i t , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t , t h a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h e w a s i n y o u r o ffic e s w h e n y o u d id s o ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u d o n o t r e c a l l t h e n a m e o f t h a t p e r s o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d o n o t b u t h e w il l b e t h e c o m m i s s i o n e r o f t h e a ffi d a v i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y s o le t u s t o g o t o t h e c o m m i s s io n e r o f o a t h s p a g e i f w e c a n . Yo u w il l fi n d it a t 11 . W a s i t J o h a n n e s M a r t h i n u s Page 69 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 Heynes? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m a s s u m i n g s o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. D o y o u r e c a l l h i m b e i n g i n t r o d u c e d to you? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o h e j u s t c o m m i s s io n e d i t f o r m e I d o n o t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r J u d i e l o r g a n is e d fo r a c o m m i s s io n e r t o come with him. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 To y o u r o ff ic e s in R iv o n ia f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f d e p o s in g to t h e a ffi d a v it ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d id y o u d e p o s e t o i t i n t h e p r e s e n c e o f M r Heynes? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s i g n e d a c c o r d i n g ly a n d t h e n h e s ig n e d , i s t h a t r ig h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m c u r i o u s a b o u t i n t h a t r e g a r d a t p a g e 11 M r N a ta s e n is w h y t h e n w h a t t h e c o m m is s i o n e r o f o a t h s i n d i c a t e s 20 t h e r e is t h a t t h e s ta t e m e n t w a s s w o r n b e fo r e h i m I a m r e a d i n g fr o m t h e t h ir d l i n e o f th e c o m m i s s i o n e r ’s in d ic a ti o n th e r e . A n d t h e d e p o n e n t ’s s ig n a tu r e w a s p l a c e d t h e r e o n i n my p r e s e n c e a t K r u g e r s d o r p o n t h e 4 t h October 2017. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o i t w a s a t m y o ff ic e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h y w o u ld h e h a v e f il le d in K r u g e r s d o r p ? Page 70 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k t h e y h a d p r e fil l e d t h a t s e c t io n b u t i t w a s d o n e a t m y o ffi c e s . I d o n o t k n o w. I a c t u a l ly d id n o t s e e t h a t p a r t . A ll I d i d w a s I s i g n e d , I p a s s e d i t t o h i m a n d t h e n h e h a d fi ll e d h is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d o y o u th i n k t h e y w o u l d h a v e p r e f il le d i n K r u g e r s d o r p i f i t w a s b e i n g s i g n e d i n R iv o n ia ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m n o t s u r e . B u t I a m s u r e y o u c a n c a ll h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m s u r e w e c a n t h a n k y o u . A n d M r N a t a s e n in y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u a l s o i n d ic a t e d th a t a t t h a t m e e ti n g w h e n y o u w e r e fi n a l is i n g a ll o f t h is Mr J u d i e l g o t … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I s e e t h a t in t h e c o m m i s s io n e r ’s c e r t i fic a t e Mr N a t a s e n t h a t i s t h e s a m e p a r t w h e r e M s H o f m e y r w a s r e a d in g fr o m . I s e e th a t t h e c o m m is s i o n e r o f o a t h s s a y s h e i s th e o n e w h o t o o k t h e s t a te m e n t . I c e r t i fy t h a t t h e a b o v e s t a t e m e n t w a s t a k e n b y m e . I s t h a t f a c tu a lly c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o i t w a s J u d ie l w h o p r e p a r e d t h a t s ta t e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s h e j u s t a d m i n is t e r e d t h e o a t h ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : It l o o k s l ik e a t e m p la t e t h a t th e y h a v e u t ili s e d f o r t h is . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a m a y b e – m a y b e n o r m a l ly i t j u s t s a y s t h a t o r m a y b e h e d i d n o t p a y a t te n ti o n t o th a t p a r t . I d o n o t k n o w. I ju s t p i c k e d i t u p t h a t h e s a y s h e i s t h e o n e w h o t o o k th e s t a t e m e n t . Page 71 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o i t w a s n o t . I d i d n o t t a k e t h e s t a t e m e n t w i t h him. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s J u d ie l w h o a s s is t e d m e i n p r e p a r i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h e w a s in y o u r p r e s e n c e i n R i v o n i a ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t – t h e d e p o s i ti o n t h e r e o f . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d th e n I r e c a l l fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e l a s t ti m e y o u s a id d u r in g t h a t in t e r a c ti o n s o m e b o d y w a s p u t o n t h e l i n e a n in v e s t i g a t o r o ff ic e r, is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t w a s th e e a r li e r i n te r a c t i o n w h e n h e w a s e x p l a i n in g t o m e w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d . I t w a s n o t w h e n w e f in a lis e d t h is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s i n a n e a r l ie r s ta g e th a t h e p u t – I a m a s s u m i n g t h e in v e s ti g a t i n g o ffi c e r o n t h e p h o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 W h y d o y o u s a y y o u a s s u m e h e p u t th e in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r o n t h e p h o n e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e s a i d h e i s p h o n in g … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e y o u r la s t te s ti m o n y w a s t h a t h e p u t t h e in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r o n t h e p h o n e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a w e l l I a m s a y i n g b e c a u s e I d i d n o t c o n f ir m i t a n y th in g [i n d is t in c t] s o I a m o b v i o u s l y p r o v id i n g t h a t c l a r i ty n o w t o s a y Page 72 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h a t h e p u t – h e to l d m e h e w a s p u t ti n g t h e in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r o n t h e p h o n e a n d h e w a s o b v i o u s ly – h e e n g a g e d w i t h h e r – i t w a s n o t o n a s p e a k e r p h o n e a n d t h e y w e r e d i s c u s s in g t h a t h e w a s p r e p a r i n g a n a ffi d a v i t w e ll o b v io u s ly w i th m e a n d t h a t t h e y w e r e – h e w o u l d b e bringing it to me. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d i d y o u n o t h e a r t h e c a ll w i t h t h e in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h e a r d h i m o n t h e c a ll . I heard it was a w o m a n ’s v o ic e b u t I d i d n o t g e t th e e x a c t w o r d s t h a t w a s b e in g s a i d o n 10 t h e o th e r s i d e . I u n d e r s to o d t h e g is t o f w h a t h e s a i d o n th is s i d e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s h e s a y i n g ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e w a s b a s ic a l ly e x p l a i n i n g t h a t h e h a d o b t a i n e d a ll t h e in f o r m a t io n r e g a r d i n g w h a t h a d c o m e t h r o u g h t o N e o S o lu t io n s , h o w i t h a d m o v e d o n a n d h e w a s p r e p a r i n g a n a ffi d a v i t w i th m e w h ic h h e w o u ld b r in g th r o u g h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r N a ta s e n y e s te r d a y e v e n i n g w e p r o v i d e d y o u r a t t o r n e y s w i t h a f u r th e r a ff i d a v i t w h ic h w e h a d r e c e iv e d li te r a ll y m o m e n t s b e f o r e fr o m t h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ffi c e r a s s i g n e d t o t h is c a s e . H a v e y o u s e e n t h a t a ff id a v i t? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s i t c a m e t h r o u g h l a s t n i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . L e t u s g o to i t . It i s in th e o t h e r b u n d l e D D 1 0 a a n d it is a t p a g e 2 3 8 . 2 8 7 . A p o l o g i e s w h e n I s a id t h e o th e r b u n d l e I s h o u l d h a v e s a id t h e s a m e b u n d l e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s my e r r o r. Page 73 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n – w e a r e s ti ll in a a n d i t i s 2 3 8 . 2 8 7 . CHAIRPERSON: .247? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 8 7 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 287. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is r i g h t a t t h e b a c k o f t h a t fi l e t h a t m a y a s s is t in n a v i g a t i n g . CHAIRPERSON: I s e e t h a t I a m – Mr N a t a s e n s e e m s to fi n d t h e s e p a g e s m u c h q u ic k e r t h a n I d o . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a y b e t h a t h e h a s b e e n w o r k in g o n it m o r e r e c e n t ly C h a ir th a n a n y o f u s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o i t is t h e f ir s t ti m e I ju s t p r o b a b ly q u ic k e r i n fl ip p in g p a g e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e n o w a t 2 3 8 .2 8 7 a n d t h a t i s a n a ff id a v i t d e p o s e d t o b y M s M o k h o s i a n d if y o u s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 3 s h e w a s a s k e d t o c o n fi r m w h e t h e r s h e h a d m e t o r h a d a n y i n te r a c t io n s w it h y o u Mr N a t a s e n in p e r s o n o r t e l e p h o n ic a l ly a n d s h e s a id n o a n d s h e w a s a s k e d w h e t h e r a n y o n e e ls e fr o m D P C I h a d b e e n i n c o n t a c t w it h o r m e t y o u 20 a n d th e r e s h e s a y s n o t fr o m t h e M a f ik e n g D P C I , d o y o u s e e th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o Ms M o k h o s i h a s i n d ic a te d s h e i s n o t h a d a n y i n te r a c t io n s w it h y o u , d o y o u s e e t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t b u t th a t is c o n s is t e n t w i th w h a t I a m s a y in g a s w e ll . I d e a l w i t h M r J u d i e l . Page 74 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s a n d s o y o u n e v e r e n g a g e d w i th h e r. I h a d u n d e r s t o o d l a s t ti m e th a t th e r e w a s a s p e a k e r p h o n e , w a s t h a t in c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o h e h a d p u t h e r o n th e p h o n e a n d I h e a r d t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n . W e l l I a s s u m e d a s I s a i d it w a s – t h e i n v e s t i g a t in g o ffic e r b u t h e d id p u t s o m e o n e o n t h e p h o n e a n d e n g a g e d a b o u t th a t h e is s e c u r i n g t h e a ff id a v i t a n d h e w o u l d b e b r in g in g i t th r o u g h t o h e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . A n d … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A ll I k n e w i t w a s a w o m a n – a fe m a l e v o ic e o n 10 t h e o th e r s i d e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d M r J u d ie l d i d y o u e n g a g e w i th h i m a g a i n b e f o r e y o u g a v e e v id e n c e h e r e o n t h e 1 2 J u l y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s w e d id . H e s u p p li e d a n a ff i d a v i t a s w e ll . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d lik e t o g o t o th a t a ffi d a v it i f w e m a y ? Yo u w i ll fi n d i t i n t h e s a m e b u n d le a n d i t c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 2 3 8 . 1 4 5 . I s t h a t M r J u d i e l ’s a ffi d a v it ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u r e a d i t b e fo r e y o u s u b m i t te d it t o t h e c o m m i s s io n ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m a w a r e o f i t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u r e a d i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d I u n d e r s to o d t h e c o n te n ts y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. I f y o u g o t o 2 3 8 . 1 4 7 . A t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 3 t h e r e Mr J u d i e l d e s c r ib e s h is i n v o lv e m e n t i n t h e S e c t i o n 2 0 4 s ta t e m e n t. C o u ld y o u r e a d to u s w h a t h e s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 ? Page 75 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 1 3 : “ I t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t p u r s u a n t t o m y a d v ic e s t o N a t a s e n r e g a r d in g m y i n v e s ti g a t i o n s h e r e in a n d t h e m a t t e r u n d e r C A Z 4 9 0 8 /2 0 1 7 N a t a s e n p r e p a r e d a n d s u b m i t te d a s t a t e m e n t i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 2 0 4 o f T h e C r i m i n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t t o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ffic e r. ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t s e e m s to c o n tr a d i c t y o u r e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n . CHAIRPERSON: I was trying to see where… M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t i s t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h o n 2 3 8 . 1 4 7 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a r a g r a p h 1 3 C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: On? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a g e 2 3 8 . 1 4 7 . CHAIRPERSON: The last paragraph? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 a g a in ? C h a ir i f w e c a n j u s t r e a d t h e r e l e v a n t p a r t T h i s is M r J u d ie l e x p l a in in g h is r o le i n t h e S e c t io n 2 0 4 s t a te m e n t a n d I w il l r e a d i t a g a i n j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d . “ I t i s my u n d e r s ta n d i n g th a t p u r s u a n t to m y a d v ic e s t o N a t a s e n r e g a r d in g m y i n v e s ti g a t i o n s h e r e in a n d t h e m a t te r u n d e r C A Z 4 9 / 0 8 / 2 0 1 7 N a t a s e n p r e p a r e d a n d s u b m i t te d a s t a t e m e n t i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 2 0 4 o f Page 76 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 T h e C r i m i n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t t o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ffic e r. ” Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t s e e m s to b e i n c o n s i s t e n t w i t h y o u r e v i d e n c e a b o u t h is r o le , d o e s i t n o t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d o n o t t h i n k it i s in c o n s is t e n t . H e w a s – h e w a s th e p e r s o n w h o a p p r o a c h e d m e . H e a s s is t e d m e in p r e p a r i n g i t a n d t h a t is t h e d o c u m e n t th a t w e n t th r o u g h . I a m a s s u m i n g s u b m i t te d 10 t o t h e i n v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r is a p r o c e s s b u t I d i d n o t p h y s ic a lly m e e t w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ff ic e r i f th a t is w h a t y o u a r e tr y in g to i m p l y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I a m n o t i m p l y i n g a n y t h i n g M r N a t a s e n I a m ju s t lo o k i n g a t h is w o r d s . H e s a y s : N a ta s e n p r e p a r e d l e t u s s t o p t h e r e . S o I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e q u i t e r e p e a te d ly t o b e M r J u d i e l p r e p a r e d i t , c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t is i n c o n s is t e n t , r i g h t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k w e ll i f y o u o b v i o u s l y g o i n g t o s u m m o n s M r J u d ie l h e w i ll c o m e a n d a c c o u n t f o r w h a t h e s a i d . I c a n n o t … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o i n d e e d I a m j u s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e i t m i g h t n o t n e c e s s a r i ly b e in c o n s is t e n t b e c a u s e if f o r e x a m p le y o u g e t y o u r a tt o r n e y to p r e p a r e s o m e t h i n g fo r y o u a n d y o u s ig n s o m e b o d y m ig h t s a y y o u p r e p a r e d e v e n t h o u g h i t i s Page 77 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 y o u r a t t o r n e y w h o p r e p a r e d s o th e r e m a y b e r o o m f o r t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir in d e e d I a m in d e b t e d t o y o u . CHAIRPERSON: But you may see how you … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d i f I c a n f o l lo w t h a t u p ? Mr Natasen I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e p r e v i o u s ly a n d t o d a y to p l a c e g r e a t e m p h a s is o n M r J u d i e l ’s r o l e i n p u t ti n g to g e t h e r t h a t s t a t e m e n t , is t h a t a fa ir r e fl e c t io n o f y o u r e v i d e n c e ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . H e - h e g r e a t ly a s s i s te d i n p u t t in g i t t o g e th e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I - you see I do not know what - what the c o n te n t w o u l d b e r e q u ir e d f o r a 2 0 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o h e a s s i s te d m e w i t h t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . I n d e e d a n d t h e n o n y o u r v e r s io n h e t o o k it a w a y a n d m a d e i t a v a il a b l e to t h e a u th o r it i e s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a ll t h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d in h e r e is t h a t n e i th e r o f t h o s e tw o t h i n g s d o e s h e t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r i n th is p a r a g r a p h . D o y o u s e e ? H e s a y s y o u p r e p a r e d i t a n d y o u s u b m i t t e d it . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u t l ik e t h e C h a ir h a s s a i d i t - it is s e m a n t ic . I m e a n i t is q u i t e o f t e n t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t i s p r e p a r e d b y s o m e b o d y e ls e p h y s i c a ll y b u t i n th e w a y i t is w o r d e d h e r e … Page 78 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e - I d i d n o t p r e p a r e i t a n d - a n d M r J u d i e l c a n e a s il y - I a m s u r e y o u c a n s u m m o n s h i m … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : To c o m e a n d a c c o u n t o n e x a c t ly h o w i t w e n t down. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u a ls o d id n o t s u b m i t i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d id n o t p h y s ic a l ly s u b m i t i t m y s e l f t o th e in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r. H e d i d t h a t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e - t h e r e m a y b e - w h a t I s a id e a r li e r o n mi g h t a p p ly m u c h m o r e e a s i e r w i th r e g a r d to p r e p a r a ti o n b u t w i t h r e g a r d t o s u b m is s io n i f h e s u b m i t te d i t o n y o u r b e h a l f o n e w o u ld e x p e c t h i m to m a k e i t c l e a r th a t h e w a s t h e o n e w h o s u b m i t te d i t e v e n i f i t w a s y o u r o n y o u r b e h a lf r a th e r th a n s a y y o u s u b m i t te d i t . Do you want to say a n y th in g o n t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : P o i n t t a k e n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I m e a n o b v io u s ly h e - h e c a n c o m e a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A c tu a lly a c c o u n t f o r w h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Te s t i fy, j a . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W h y h e s a i d w h a t h e s a id . CHAIRPERSON: But - but you certainly did not submit it yourself … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d e f i n i t e ly d i d n o t s u b m i t i t m y s e l f. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y h e s u b m i tt e d i t . Page 79 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e n e v e r m e t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ff ic e r myself … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d th a t is c o n s i s t e n t w h a t th e in v e s ti g a t in g o ffic e r is s a y in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. T h e n i f w e c a n g o to y o u r s t a te m e n t o f 1 2 J u ly. It is a g a i n i n th e s a m e b u n d l e a n d y o u w i ll p i c k i t u p a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 . 6 - 7 . M r N a t a s e n b e f o r e w e lo o k a t t h i s p a r t o f 1 2 J u ly s t a te m e n t t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t i n th e 2 0 4 S t a te m e n t y o u 10 in d i c a t e d t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o t a k e s te p s to r e p o r t t h e c o n d u c t u n d e r S e c t io n 3 4 o f w h a t is c a ll e d P R E C C A . D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d id s a y th a t . S o w h e n y o u d e p o s e d t o i t i n October 2017 you indicated you w o u ld take steps to report M r Va n W y k ’s c o n d u c t u n d e r t h a t A c t . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Now at paragraph 30 - 3-0 - on p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 .6 - 7 y o u s a y t h e r e - n o w t h i s is t h e a ffi d a v i t o r t h e s t a te m e n t y o u p r o v i d e d o n 1 2 J u ly 2 0 1 9 . 20 C a n y o u r e a d fo r u s w h a t y o u s a id there? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W h ic h p a r a g r a p h a g a i n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a r a g r a p h 3 0 - 3 - 0 . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 3 0 . “ P r i o r to le a r n i n g o f t h e a f o r e m e n t i o n e d c r i m in a l in v e s t i g a t io n f r o m J u d ie l I w a s u n a w a r e o f a n y Page 80 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 is s u e s relating Koreneka and A c c o r d i n g ly to the Neo upon t r a n s a c t io n s Solutions learning and of th e between B a ts a m a i. criminal in v e s t i g a t io n s in t h e a l l e g e d i m p lic a ti o n o f N e o S o lu t io n s t h e r e in I c a n d i d ly and v o l u n t a r il y d is c l o s e d t h e e x te n t o f m y k n o w l e d g e a n d th e in v o lv e m e n t o f N e o S o l u ti o n s in th e a ll e g e d c r i m i n a l a c ti v i ty t o t h e D ir e c t o r a t e f o r P r i o r it y C r i m in a l I n v e s ti g a t i o n s th e D P C I a n d f u r t h e r s u b m i tt e d a 10 s t a te m e n t u n d e r o a th i n te r ms o f S e c t i o n 2 0 4 o f th e Criminal Procedure Act 56 of 1955.” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d i d y o u h a v e a n y in t e r a c ti o n s y o u r s e l f w i t h t h e D ir e c t o r a te f o r Pr i o r i ty C r i m in a l I n v e s t i g a t io n s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : No. M y u n d e r s t a n d in g fr o m a g a i n e n g a g i n g w i t h M r J u d ie l w a s t h a t t h e r e is a lr e a d y c a s e n u m b e r in p la y. S o t h e r e w a s - t h e r e w a s n o f u r t h e r r e q u i r e m e n t t o d is c l o s e a n y fu r t h e r b e c a u s e t h e - t h e e x is ti n g c a s e n u m b e r w o u l d a p p l y o v e r t h is m a t te r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Why then in c l u d e in your Section 202 S t a te m e n t t h a t y o u w o u l d ta k e s t e p s to r e p o r t i t u n d e r S e c ti o n 3 4 ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : It i s - J u d i e l i n s e r t e d th a t c l a u s e a n y w a y b u t w h e n I - I m e a n o b v i o u s l y fr o m m y p r e v i o u s t e s ti m o n y a n d m y s u b s e q u e n t f o l lo w u p w i t h J u d i e l h e is u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h e r e i s a lr e a d y a c a s e n u m b e r o n t h is e x a c t m a tt e r a n d h e w o u ld n o t t h e n b e o p e n i n g u p a n o th e r c a s e fi le . ( I n te r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d i d y o u s p e c i f ic a ll y e n g a g e w i t h h i m a b o u t Page 81 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h e n e e d to … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A f t e r I t e s t i fi e d t h e l a s t t i m e b e c a u s e t h e n - b e c a u s e I h a d n o t b e f o r e t h e n u n d e r s to o d t h a t I n e e d e d t o d o a n y f u r th e r o b l ig a ti o n . T h e r e w a s a lr e a d y - h e h a d a lr e a d y s a i d th a t w a s a l l t h a t n e e d e d t o h a v e b e e n d o n e . T h a t t h e m a t t e r w a s a lr e a d y w i t h th e C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e s U n i t a n d th e r e fo r e t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g e ls e to b e done past that point. S o a lt h o u g h y e s m y 2 0 4 m a k e s r e fe r e n c e to t h o s e f u r t h e r s t e p s . M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g fr o m J u d ie l w a s t h a t t h o s e s t e p s w e r e a lr e a d y 10 in p l a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ju s t w o u ld l ik e t o g o a b i t fu r t h e r M r N a t a s e n because I am not sure I understand it. I understand your evidence to be Mr Judiel prepared the draft. Correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e in c l u d e d in t h e d r a f t th a t y o u w o u ld t a k e s t e p s to r e p o r t i t u n d e r S e c t i o n 3 4 o f P R E C C A . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If he knew there was already a case number a n d n o n e e d t o r e p o r t i t w h y w o u l d h e h a v e i n c lu d e d t h a t i n y o u r 20 s t a te m e n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m n o t s u r e w h y h e - w h y t h a t is t h e r e . A l l I a m s a y i n g is t h e n J u d ie l h i m s e l f c a n c o m e a n d a c c o u n t f o r w h y t h a t i s there. A l l I h a v e d o n e is t h a t w h e n I a s k e d h i m a b o u t i t is th e r e a n y th in g e l s e I n e e d t o d o h e s a id h e h a s e n g a g e d w i t h t h e - w i t h th e p r o s e c u t o r a n d t h e r e w a s n o f u r th e r s t e p s t o - t o b e t a k e n b y m y s e l f Page 82 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 fr o m it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n d i d y o u a s k h i m t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t i s s tr a i g h t a f t e r w e p r e p a r e d t h e a ff i d a v i t . I a s k e d h i m w h a t e ls e a n d t h e n a g a in w h e n - w h e n I t o o k th e r e c o r d i n g I c a l l e d h i m a g a in . I s a i d c a n I s u b m i t y o u t h e r e c o r d in g t h a t I h a v e g o t w h ic h is f u r t h e r e v id e n c e t o s h o w t h a t I a m - I a m - I w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t t h i s w a s S t a t e m o n e y a n d th e n h e s a i d n o t h e y h a v e g o t a l l t h a t t h e y n e e d a n d t h e r e i s n o th i n g f u r th e r f o r m y s e l f . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M r N a t a s e n I w o u l d t h e n l ik e to g o 10 t o th e e v i d e n c e o f M r P a t e l w h o w a s y o u r e r s tw h il e a c c o u n t a n t i f w e m a y. C h a ir M r P a t e l h a s p r o v id e d t w o a ff i d a v i ts . H e p r o v i d e d o n e j u s t t h e d a y b e f o r e M r N a t a s e n t e s t if i e d t h e l a s t ti m e . Th e n t h e r e w a s a f o ll o w u p fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n r e l a ti o n to t h a t a ffi d a v it a n d t h e n h e p r o v i d e d a s e c o n d o n e a n d b o th o f t h o s e h a v e b e e n p r o v id e d t o M r N a t a s e n . Mr … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Is t h e r e - a r e t h e y i n t h e s a m e b u n d l e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y a r e i n th e s a m e b u n d l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G e n e r a l ly C h a ir th e w a y i t is a r r a n g e d is w h e n 20 w e a r e i n a ffi d a v i ts w e a r e in B u n d l e A a n d w h e n w e g o t o o th e r d o c u m e n ts I w il l t a k e y o u t o B b u t f o r n o w w e a r e i n A w h ic h i s th e v a r io u s a ffi d a v it s a n d y o u w ill f in d t h e f i r s t a ffi d a v it a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 . 1 . M r N a t a s e n ju s t t o c o n f ir m f o r th e r e c o r d y o u h a v e p r e v io u s ly b e e n p r o v i d e d w it h b o t h o f t h e s e a ffi d a v i t s . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . Page 83 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u h a v e y o u r s e l f p r o v i d e d a n a ffi d a v i t i n response. Correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t a c c o r d in g t o m y r e c o r d s w e r e s e n t th r o u g h o n Tu e s d a y o f th is w e e k - t h e 2 7 t h . W e c a n g o to b u t … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m n o t s u r e w h e n D e lo i t te s e n t i t t o y o u b u t ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a s s u m e t h a t w il l b e c o m m o n c a u s e . I f w e c a n t h e n g o t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h ic h w a s th e r e s p o n s e t o t h is a ffi d a v i t . Yo u 10 w i ll fi n d i t a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 . 2 - 6 - 4 . CHAIRPERSON: 2-3-8.2 …? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 6 - t h r e e is w h e r e i t b e g i n s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Three, oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 - 6 - 3 is w h e r e i t b e g in s . S o r r y 2 - 3 - 8 . 2 - s o r r y 2 - 3 - 8 . 2 - 6 - 3 C h a ir. I c o n f u s e my n u m b e r s fr o m t i m e to t i m e . I t is r i g h t t o w a r d s t h e e n d - 2 - 3 - 8 .2 - 6 - 3 . M r N a ta s e n ju s t to o r i e n t a t e o u r s e l v e s . Apologies. Th is i s t h e p r io r a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u s e n t t h r o u g h to th e Commission on 8 August. I t is a c t u a l ly n o t t h e o n e r e s p o n d i n g t o M r P a t e l. T h e o n e r e s p o n d i n g t o Mr P a t e l w e w ill c o m e t o j u s t n o w. 20 I t i s th e n e x t a ffi d a v i t i n th e b u n d le . T h a t i s th e o n e d a te d 2 7 A u g u s t b u t I w o u ld l ik e t o j u s t l o o k a t th is o n e f o r a m o m e n t if w e m a y. I n th is a ff id a v i t if y o u tu r n o v e r th e p a g e t o 2 - 3 - 8 .2 - 6 - 4 y o u s a y there at paragraph 6. W e ll l e t u s s t a r t a t fi v e b e c a u s e y o u p r o v i d i n g s o m e b a c k g r o u n d i n t h is a ff i d a v i t . Yo u s a y : “On 1 2 J u ly 2 0 1 9 I was q u e s ti o n e d Page 84 of 236 at th e 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C o m m i s s i o n i n r e s p e c t o f i n t e r a li a c e r t a i n fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts a n d / o r d o c u m e n ts o f N e o S o l u ti o n s . ” Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n a t s ix y o u s a y : “ P r i o r t o s u c h i n q u ir y I h a d a le r t e d t h e C o m m i s s io n t o t h e fa c t th a t t h e f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n t s o f N e o S o lu t io n s i n r e s p e c t o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r e n d i n g F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 7 w e r e in c o m p l e te a n d / o r i n c o r r e c t . ” 10 Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t to m e a n p r i o r t o 1 2 J u l y w h e n th a t in q u ir y t o o k p l a c e y o u a le r te d t h e C o m m i s s i o n to t h e f a c t t h a t th e f in a n c ia l s t a t e m e n ts w e r e in c o m p l e te o r in c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m a s s u m i n g s o , ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u p o in t m e t o w h e r e t h a t w a s b r o u g h t t o t h e C o m m is s i o n ’s a t te n ti o n b e f o r e y o u te s t if ie d o n 1 2 J u ly ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I c a n n o t o ffh a n d . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h y w o u ld h a v e s a i d t h a t p r i o r t o t h e in q u i r y y o u d id s o ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m n o t s u r e . I t is h e r e th a t - I o b v i o u s ly - I w i ll h a v e t o g o b a c k i n to o u r r e c o r d s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e w h a t - w h a t is in t e r e s ti n g i s th a t y o u d i d d e p o s e t o a n a ffi d a v i t t h e v e r y d a y b e fo r e o n t h e 11 t h b u t y o u d i d Page 85 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 n o t in t h a t a ffi d a v i t d r a w t h e C o m m is s i o n ’s a t t e n t i o n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t w o u l d b e in c o r r e c t th e n w h a t is s t a t e d at paragraph 6? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ja. I n th e a b s e n c e o f s e e i n g a n y t h i n g e ls e , yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d i f w e g o t o th a t a ffi d a v i t i t i s a t 10 2 - 3 - 8 . 1 - 8 - 5 .3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is q u it e s o m e t h i n g . 2 - 3 - 8 . 1 - 8 - 5 . 3 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P o i n t 1 - 8 - 5 .3 . CHAIRPERSON: 2-3-8 … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P o i n t 1 - 8 - 5 is w h e r e w e s h o u ld p o s s i b l y s t a r t C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h a t is t h e f il in g s h e e t o f 11 J u ly a ffi d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e i t is a n a ffi d a v i t b y y o u r s e l f M r N a ta s e n . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d it d o e s n o t r u n p a r t ic u l a r ly l o n g . I t is a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d to t h e C o m m i s s io n o n 11 J u ly. T h a t w a s th e d a y b e fo r e y o u t e s t if i e d . D o y o u s e e t h a t a t th e e n d o f th e a ffi d a v i t a t Page 86 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 2 - 3 - 8 . 1 - 8 - 5 .5 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d o u r r e c o r d s r e fl e c t t h a t i t c a m e t h r o u g h t o t h e C o m m is s i o n ju s t a f t e r 5 o ’ c l o c k o n th a t d a y. D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m n o t c o n te s ti n g i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M r N a ta s e n t h i s i s w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h t h e p r o d u c ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts . Yo u w i ll p ic k i t u p a t 2 - 3 - 8 . 1 - 8 - 5 . 3 . T h e y r e la t e to th e v a r i o u s d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u h a d b e e n r e q u ir e d to p r o v i d e u n d e r a s u m m o n s . N o w i n t h i s a ff id a v it I - I h a v e r e a d i t q u i t e 10 c a r e fu ll y - y o u s a y n o th in g i n it a b o u t th e d is c r e p a n c ie s i n t h e fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts . D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ; a n d p l e a s e f e e l fr e e t o r e m in d y o u r s e l f a b o u t i ts c o n t e n ts . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a . T h e r e is n o t h i n g r a is e d h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. N o w d e s p i te i t n o t a p p e a r i n g i n t h is a ffi d a v i t a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u h a d b e e n a l e r t e d t o t h e d is c r e p a n c ie s i n t h e 2 0 1 7 fi n a n c i a l s … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A lr e a d y b y t h e 11 t h . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . T h e r e w a s a m e e t in g w i t h t h e a u d it o r s o n 20 the - on the 10t h. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. S o j u s t i n ti m e y o u m e t o n t h e 1 0 t h w h ic h w a s t h e W e d n e s d a y o f t h e w e e k a s I h a v e it . C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e a u d i t o r s o f w h i c h M r P a t e l is th e r e l e v a n t r e s p o n s ib l e p e r s o n h a d i n d i c a t e d t o y o u in t h a t m e e t in g t h a t Page 87 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h e r e w e r e d i s c r e p a n c ie s i n t h e 2 0 1 7 f in a n c ia ls . D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And do you recall what the nature of the d is c r e p a n c ie s w e r e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t t h a t p o i n t w e d i d n o t k n o w t h e n a t u r e . I t i s ju s t th a t t h e - t h e r e w e r e s e v e r a l b a l a n c e s h e e t it e m s t h a t d i d n o t r e c o n c i l e o n t h e 2 0 1 7 f in a n c i a ls . S o t h e w a y it tr a n s p ir e d w a s t h a t w h e n t h e s u m m o n s w a s r e c e iv e d b y t h e a u d it o r s th e y c o n t a c t e d m e . T h e y a s k e d fo r a c o p y o f th e fi n a n c i a ls o r t h e m a n a g e m e n t a c c o u n t s 10 that were sent through to th e C o m m is s io n which our a c c o u n ts department then sent through. T h e n t h e y c a l l e d a m e e ti n g to u n d e r s ta n d w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d i n th e m e e t in g i t w a s t h e n e s t a b l is h e d t h a t M r P a t e l t h e n i n fo r m e d m e th a t t h e r e w a s a - t h e 2 0 1 7 f in a n c ia ls w e r e d i ff e r e n t . T h e r e w e r e d is c r e p a n c ie s b e tw e e n t h e t w o v e r s i o n s . T h e v e r s i o n h e h a d s ig n e d o r authorised versus the version that we had on hand. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . T h a n k y o u f o r th a t b e c a u s e th a t is my u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e n u b o f t h e d is c r e p a n c ie s . R i g h t . I t w a s t h a t a n d t h is is a p p a r e n t fr o m M r P a t e l ’s a ffi d a v it . W e c a n g o th e r e i f n e c e s s a r y 20 b u t c o u l d y o u j u s t h e lp m e w h e t h e r y o u u n d e r s t a n d h i s e v i d e n c e i n t h e same way as I do. A s I u n d e r s ta n d M r P a te l ’s e v i d e n c e h e s a y s h e m e t w it h y o u o n 1 0 J u l y a n d in t h a t m e e ti n g h e d i s c o v e r e d t h a t th e v e r s i o n o f t h e 2 0 1 7 fi n a n c i a l s th a t h a d b e e n p r o v i d e d t o th e C o m m is s i o n w i th a c o v e r in g p a g e i n d ic a ti n g h e h a d s i g n e d o ff o n t h e m w e r e d i ff e r e n t to Page 88 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h e o n e s h e h a d a c t u a l ly s ig n e d o ff o n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f h i s e v i d e n c e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll h e h a d a lr e a d y r e c e iv e d t h e c o p y t h a t w e h a d s e n t t h r o u g h to t h e C o m m is s i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. T h a t i s t h e o n ly w a y h e c a n d o t h e c o m p a r is o n . R i g h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a , j a . S o h e d i d n o t - i t w a s n o t d i s c o v e r e d in t h e m e e ti n g . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e a r r iv e d a t t h e m e e ti n g a lr e a d y h a v in g t h a t knowledge. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . So he asked you to send him the ones t h a t w e r e s u b m i t t e d to t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h ic h i n c lu d e a p a g e fr o m h is fir m i n d ic a ti n g th a t t h e y h a d c o m p il e d t h e m … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h ic h h e s ig n e d o ff o n a n d t h e n h e g o e s b a c k t o r e c o r d s a n d h e d i s c o v e r s t h a t t h e f in a n c i a l s t a t e m e n ts t h a t h e a c t u a ll y s i g n e d o ff o n fr o m 2 0 1 7 d i ffe r fr o m t h e o n e s th a t w e r e 20 s u b m i tt e d t o t h e C o m m is s i o n . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s t h e n a t u r e o f t h e d is c r e p a n c y a s I u n d e r s t a n d it . C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : P r io r t o my t e s ti m o n y, y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o t h is i s - in d e e d a n d y o u r t e s ti m o n y Page 89 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 ju s t to b e c l e a r la s t ti m e Mr N a t a s e n i t o n ly d e a l t w i th th e 2 0 1 6 fi n a n c i a l s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a , ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right and we are only talking about a d is c r e p a n c y t h a t M r P a te l i d e n t if i e d w i t h t h e 2 0 1 7 fi n a n c i a ls . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . S o t h a t is th e d is c r e p a n c y a n d h e - I u n d e r s t a n d h e is c o n c e r n e d a b o u t i t a s y o u w e r e . C o r r e c t / M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t , y e s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s ta n d h i s a ffi d a v i t i t h a d b e e n p r e s e n t e d t o th e C o m m is s i o n t h a t a s e t o f fi n a n c i a l s th a t h e s ig n e d o ff o n w e r e a c t u a ll y n o t th e o n e s t h a t h e h a d s ig n e d o ff o n a n d p r e p a r e d . C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u r e v id e n c e l a s t t i m e w a s t h a t t h e n e x t m o r n i n g s o t h a t is 11 J u ly M r P a t e l a n d h is f ir m r e s ig n e d a s t h e a u d i to r s o f N e o S o lu t io n s . C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l w e r e c e i v e d t h a t n o ti f ic a t i o n v i a y o u r o ffic e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e d i d n o t s e n d u s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e r e s i g n in g d ir e c t ly w i t h u s . I t w a s a c t u a ll y n o ti fi e d v i a t h e a t t o r n e y s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y ju s t e x p l a in t h a t t o m e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : It w a s t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e v ia th e a t t o r n e y s t h a t n o t if i e d u s o f r e s i g n a ti o n . I t w a s n o t d ir e c t ly to m e . Page 90 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fr o m w h o m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : F r o m P a t e l ’s a t t o r n e y s t o - t o o u r a t to r n e y s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , s o r r y. So it did not involve th e Commission? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l th e a ff id a v i t w a s a l s o s u b m i t t e d t o y o u a t t h e s a m e ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y, but ju s t to be c l e a r. It was c o m m u n ic a te d t o y o u th r o u g h t h e a t t o r n e y s o f M r P a t e l a n d y o u r a tt o r n e y s t h a t t h e y w e r e r e s i g n i n g a s y o u r a u d it o r s ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e m o r n i n g o f 11 J u l y t h e T h u r s d a y. C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u ; a n d th e n I w o u l d l ik e t o g o t o M r P a t e l’s a ffi d a v i t a g a in i f w e m a y a n d y o u f i n d t h a t a t 2 - 3 - 8 .1 a n d i f y o u g o t h r o u g h - t h a t i s t h e s t a r t o f M r P a t e l ’s a ff i d a v i t a n d t h e n i f y o u g o t o t h e e n d o f h is a ffi d a v it . Yo u w i ll f in d i t a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 . 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y p o i n t f iv e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t is t h e l a s t p a g e - p a g e o f M r P a t e l ’s a ffi d a v i t a n d I w o u ld l ik e t o p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o n t h a t p a g e . A t paragraph 12 he says: “On th e WhatsApp morning of messages 11 J u ly 2 0 1 9 fr o m I r e c e iv e d M r N a ta s e n . Page 91 of 236 A 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 s c r e e n s h o t o f w h ic h is a t t a c h e d m a r k e d G a n d t h e c o n te n ts o f w h i c h s p e a k f o r t h e m s e l v e s . ” Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f w e t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e - w e ll i t is a f e w p a g e s w e h a v e to g o t o g e t t h e W h a t s Ap p m e s s a g e . Yo u w i ll fi n d t h a t a t 2 - 3 - 8 .6 - 0 . CHAIRPERSON: 2-3-8.6-0? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 6 - 0 y e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Before we look at the WhatsApp message. M r N a t a s e n d i d y o u r e a d M r P a te l ’s a ff i d a v i t a s b e i n g c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e fa c t th a t N e o S o lu t io n s h a d s u b m i t t e d f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n p u r p o r t in g to h a v e b e e n s i g n e d o ff b y h i m w h e n th e y w e r e n o t s i g n e d o ff b y h i m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . Th e r e w e r e c o n c e r n s b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e t w o s e ts o f f in a n c ia ls a ls o s ig n e d o ff b y m e u s i n g m y s ig n a tu r e p a g e a s w e ll . S o i t i s c o n c e r n in g to b o th o f u s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 I n d e e d a n d t h e n h e a tt a c h e s t h e W h a t s A p p m e s s a g e a n d h e s a y s t h e c o n t e n t s o f w h ic h s p e a k f o r t h e m s e lv e s . w o u ld lik e t o g o th r o u g h t h a t . I M y p r o p o s a l is th a t w e r e a d t h e f u l l W h a t s A p p m e s s a g e in t o t h e r e c o r d . M y p r o p o s a l is t h a t y o u r e a d w h a t y o u s a i d a n d I r e a d w h a t M r P a te l s a i d . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n w e g o t h r o u g h i t . It is a t 2 - 3 - 8 .6 - 0 . Page 92 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. S o I a m t h e o n e i n w h i te o n t h e l e f t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : “ H i , p le a s e a d v is e w h a t i s s ta t u s . My a tt o r n e y s w a n t to p r e p c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n M r P a te l o n t h e r i g h t h a n d s i d e C h a ir responds: “ H i , o u r a t t o r n e y is d e a li n g w i t h th e m a t te r. ” M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e n I s a i d : “ O k a y a r e y o u - y o u j u s t b u y i n g ti m e o r is s u in g 10 c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o f t h e d i ff e r e n c e . I j u s t n e e d to know how to prep.” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n Mr P a t e l r e s p o n d s t o s a y : “ W e w i ll r e v e r t b a c k to y o u l a te r. ” M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y. Th e n I s a i d : “ R a j iv w e h a v e c o m e a l o n g w a y. your help here. W e r e a l ly n e e d W e h a v e to b e a b le to r e c o n c il e t h is e ls e it w il l h u r t a ll o f u s . L e t u s ju s t w o r k t o g e th e r o n f ix in g th is p l e a s e . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 T h a n k y o u a n d th e n Mr N a ta s e n y o u w e r e in v i te d b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o r e s p o n d t o Mr P a t e l ’s fir s t a ffi d a v it a n d t h e n o n r e c e i p t o f h i s s e c o n d a ff i d a v i t - th a t a ff i d a v i t a n d t h a t is I u n d e r s t a n d i t is w h a t y o u t o o k u p i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t p r o v id e d o n 2 7 A u g u s t. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o if w e c a n g o t o t h a t o n e w h i c h is r i g h t Page 93 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t o w a r d s th e e n d o f t h is fi le C h a ir a n d y o u w il l fi n d i t a t p a g e 2-3-8.2-6-7. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s n o t i n my b u n d le . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 - 3 - 8 . 2 - 6 - 7 is n o t t h e r e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t g o e s fr o m 2 - 6 - 6 t o 2 - 7 - 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h t h a t i s a n o v e r s i g h t . P o s s ib ly w e c a n ju s t h a n d o n e u p to y o u fr o m m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s s u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s M r N a ta s e n n o t h a v e t h a t o n e ? 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n p l a c e d i n h is fi le . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is h is a ffi d a v i t t h o u g h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f I c a n b e g l e a v e ju s t t o h a n d u p a d u p lic a t e s o t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e c a n w o r k o ff i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 . 2 - 6 - 7 y o u c o m m e n c e t h e a ff id a v i t a n d t h e n o v e r t h e p a g e a t 2 - 6 - 8 . I understand you in p a r a g r a p h 5 to s a y y o u w a n t t o p l a c e t h e W h a t s A p p c o m m u n i c a t io n i n c o n te x t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I n c o n t e x t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t r i g h t ? Page 94 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t , j a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e fo r e w e d o t h e c o n te x t c o u ld w e j u s t p a u s e a li t tl e o n i ts a c t u a l w o r d i n g a n d f o r th a t p u r p o s e C h a i r I s u g g e s t t h a t m a y b e w e j u s t t a k e o u t t h e W h a ts A p p m e s s a g e w h e r e i t a p p e a r e d p r e v i o u s ly a n d a p o l o g i e s f o r n o t a s k i n g y o u to d o t h a t a t t h e ti m e . T h a t y o u w il l f i n d a t 2 - 3 - 8 . 6 - 0 a n d t h e n w e c a n d e a l w it h t h e c o n te x t o n c e w e h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e w o r d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I h a v e g o t it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . S o i f w e l o o k a t 2 - 3 - 8 . 6 - 0 w h ic h is 10 t h e a c t u a l W h a ts A p p c o m m u n ic a ti o n . I t is e a r ly in t h e m o r n in g a s I s e e it - 0 9 : 4 8 a n d y o u a r e a s k i n g h i m f o r a s t a tu s u p d a t e . Is t h a t a f a ir d e s c r ip t io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . T h e r e w e r e s e v e r a l a t t e m p ts to c a l l h i m b e f o r e th a t t h o u g h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h h e w a s n o t a n s w e r i n g ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So then you endeavoured to W h a ts A p p c o m m u n ic a te w i t h h i m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u s a y y o u w a n t a s t a t u s u p d a t e b e c a u s e y o u r a t t o r n e y s a r e p r e p p in g c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d h is r e s p o n s e s a y s h is a t t o r n e y i s d e a li n g with it. Is that right? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . Page 95 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n y o u s a y : “ O k a y. Yo u just b u y in g time c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o f t h e d i ff e r e n c e . or is s u in g Just need to know how to prep.” W h y w o u ld h e b e b u y i n g ti m e M r N a t a s e n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o t h e c o n t e x t w a s t h a t th e in i ti a l s u m m o n s t o t h e a u d i t o r s w a s a p p a r e n tl y d i s p a tc h e d o n th e 2 8 t h - I th in k - J u n e s i m il a r t o r e q u e s t fr o m u s b u t i t n e v e r a r r i v e d t o th e m b e c a u s e h e h a d m o v e d p r e m is e s a p p a r e n t ly. S o t h e y r e c e iv e d i t o n s h o r t n o tic e . J u s t 10 t o o a l s o c o n t e x tu a lis e t h e m e e ti n g th a t h a p p e n e d w i th t h e a u d i t o r s h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e i r a t to r n e y s p r e s e n t a n d th e s e c o n d p a r t o f th e m e e ti n g h a p p e n e d w i t h o u r a t t o r n e y s p r e s e n t . S o w h e n it c a m e a b o u t i n th e m e e ti n g th a t t h e r e w e r e d is c r e p a n c ie s o n t h e 2 0 1 7 fi n a n c i a ls t h e n w e - w e th e n d i s c u s s e d w e n e e d e d t o i d e n t i fy w h a t c a u s e d t h e s e d i ff e r e n c e s a n d i f t h e r e a s b a d n e w s th a t w e h a d to c o r r e c t t h e f in a n c i a ls . T h e n w e h a d to d o t h a t jo in t ly a n d a p p r o a c h t h e C o m m is s i o n d i r e c t ly w i th c o r r e c t e d fi n a n c i a l s a n d th e w o r d s “b u y i n g ti m e ” r e f e r r e d to t h e m e x e r c is i n g th e r i g h t t o s a y t h e y h a v e t i m e t o p r e p a r e a r e s p o n s e s o t h a t w e c o u l d u n d e r s ta n d w h a t 20 c a u s e d th e s e d i ff e r e n c e s i n th e f in a n c ia ls a n d w e h a d a s k e d t h e m to d o t h a t b e c a u s e w e f e l t i t w o u l d m a k e b o t h p a r ti e s l o o k v e r y b a d t o c o m e h e r e w i t h fi n a n c i a ls t h a t a r e n o t a li g n e d . S o w e w e r e w a n t in g to w o r k t o g e th e r. They undertook - so w h e n t h a t m e e ti n g c o n c l u d e d t h e y u n d e r to o k t o g i v e m e th e v e r y r e s o u r c e t h a t w a s w o r k i n g o n c o m p il a ti o n e n g a g e m e n t to a c t u a ll y c o m e Page 96 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t o t h e o ffic e a n d a s s is t u s i n id e n ti fy in g t h e d i ff e r e n c e s a n d - a n d t h a t is w h y I m a d e s o m a n y c a l ls to h i m t h a t m o r n i n g w a s to s e n d a resource through. S o t h a t w e c o u ld u n d e r s t a n d w h a t c a u s e d t h e s e d i ffe r e n c e s a n d c o m e a n d a c c o u n t. S o i f - i f w h ic h e v e r - w e a t th a t p o i n t d id n o t k n o w w h ic h v e r s i o n w a s c o r r e c t a s w e l l f r o m o u r p e r s p e c ti v e . So we s a i d w e n e e d e d to b e a b l e t o c o m e i n a n d e x p l a i n t h e d i ff e r e n c e s a n d t h a t w il l r e s t o r e c r e d i b i li ty fo r b o t h p a r ti e s a n d t h a t w a s t h e c o n t e x t o f these messages. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w o u l d t h e r e b e a n y d e b a t e a s t o w h i c h t h e c o r r e c t v e r s i o n w a s b e c a u s e it w a s c l e a r w h i c h v e r s i o n h a d b e e n s ig n e d o ff b y Mr P a t e l ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e w e r e c l e a r a b o u t th a t . However Mr Patel a ls o s a id t h a t h e h a d r e l ie d h e a v il y o n t h e a c c o u n ta n t p r e p a r i n g th e in f o r m a ti o n a n d b y t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e w e w e r e a ls o t h e n s ta r t in g to b e c o m e a w a r e th a t th e a c c o u n t a n t o n o u r s i d e h a d a l s o n o t p r e p a r e d t h e in f o r m a ti o n c o r r e c tl y. S o M r P a t e l c o u l d h a v e r e li e d o n i n c o r r e c t d a t a i n t e r m s o f h i s c o m p i l a t i o n e n g a g e m e n t a s w e ll a n d t h a t w a s d is c u s s e d i n t h e - i n t h e m e e t in g . 20 S o w e - a t th a t p o i n t i t w a s - y e s i t w a s o n e s t h a t h e h a d s ig n e d o ff b u t w e a ls o a t t h a t p o in t o f t h a t m e e ti n g h a d k n o w n t h e n th a t a l o t o f t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t w a s u s e d t o g e n e r a te t h e f i n a n c ia ls m a y not have been correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Why would that have been a concern to M r P a t e l? H e d o e s n o t a c c e p t a n y r e s p o n s ib il i ty f o r t h e d o c u m e n ts . I t Page 97 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 is … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : F a ir e n o u g h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Pr o v id e d b y N e o S o l u ti o n s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : F a ir e n o u g h b u t w e w a n t e d it r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o w h y w o u l d h e b e w a n ti n g to b u y t i m e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e b u y i n g ti m e w a s to t h e n e x e r c i s e t h i s - h i s r ig h ts t o s a y I h a v e o n ly r e c e iv e d n o ti c e o f t h e s u m m o n s w h ic h w a s g iv e n t o h i m t w o d a y s o r t h a t v e r y d a y o f t h e 1 0 t h is w h e n h e r e c e iv e d the 10 correspondence fr o m the C o m m is s io n asking him for that in f o r m a ti o n a n d t h e r e f o r e w e fe l t t h a t h e c o u ld h a v e s e n t a r e q u e s t b a c k t o s a y h e n e e d s ti m e to b e a b l e t o r e s p o n d . T h a t w a s t h e c o n te x t o f t h e b u y in g ti m e s t a t e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t is - i t is a n e i t h e r o r. Yo u a s k h i m is h e b u y i n g t i m e o r is h e is s u in g c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o f th e d i ff e r e n c e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W i t h t h e d i ffe r e n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : m e e ti n g . B e c a u s e t h a t w a s a ls o d i s c u s s e d i n t h e H e - a t t h a t m e e t in g w h e n i t c lo s e d h i s a tt o r n e y s a id t h e y w o u ld c o n s i d e r w h a t t h e ir v e r s i o n w a s a n d t h e y w o u ld c o m e b a c k t o u s 20 a s t o w h e t h e r th e y w e r e g o i n g to r e q u e s t t h e e x te n s io n o r w h e th e r t h e y w o u ld s u b m i t a - a n a ffi d a v it e x p l a in i n g t h e d i ff e r e n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d - s o a t t h a t s t a g e y o u d i d n o t k n o w w h e th e r h e w a s g o in g to s u b m i t a n a ffi d a v i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t p a t h h e w a s g o i n g t o ta k e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s it n o t f a i r ly i m p o r t a n t t o m a k e k n o w n t o Page 98 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h e C o m m i s s io n t h a t f i n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s t h a t h a d b e e n p r e p a r e d a n d p r e s e n t e d t o i t w e r e in c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t w a s t h e i n t e n t io n . W e w e r e w a n ti n g to c o m e t o y o u jo in t ly t o e x p la in t h a t t h e r e w e r e d i ffe r e n c e s t h a t w e w e r e n o t a w a r e o f i n t h e fi n a n c i a l s t h a t w e r e o n f il e . Th a t w a s t h e in t e n t i o n . T h e r e w a s n o i n t e n t io n to a c t u a l ly h i d e fr o m t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right. So he would either buy time and not d is c l o s e th a t a n d ta k e m o r e ti m e o r h e w o u ld d is c l o s e … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , n o t - n o t d is c l o s e b u t f o r - to w o r k w i th u s 10 in te r ms o f id e n ti fy in g w h a t c a u s e d t h e s e d is c r e p a n c i e s . S o w e c o u l d c o m e b a c k to t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i th o n e u n i f o r m r e s p o n s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t w a s t h e i n te n ti o n o f t h a t - o f t h a t comment. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u s a y ju s t n e e d t o k n o w h o w t o prep. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w o u ld w h e t h e r h e w a s b u y i n g ti m e o r b r i n g i n g i t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s a t t e n t i o n t h a t t h e r e w a s a d i ff e r e n c e 20 b e t w e e n t h e f in a n c i a ls h e s i g n e d o ff o n a n d t h o s e s u b m i t t e d to th e C o m m i s s i o n in f lu e n c e d y o u r p r e p f o r y o u r e v i d e n c e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B e c a u s e o b v io u s ly w e n e e d e d - i f h e w a s g o i n g t o c o m e u p w i t h t h e d is c r e p a n c i e s w e w o u ld o b v io u s ly n e e d t o b e a b l e to respond on our side. I f it w a s t h a t w e w o u l d t h e n j o i n tly m a k e a s t a te m e n t t o g e th e r t h a t t h e f in a n c ia ls a r e i n c o r r e c t a n d w e w o r k in g Page 99 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t o g e th e r o n r e c o n c il i n g i t a n d th e n w e w i ll c o m e back to the C o m m i s s i o n w i t h a la t e r d a t e o n th e e x a c t d is c r e p a n c i e s a n d w h a t c a u s e d t h e m . T h a t w a s w h a t w e w e r e d e b a ti n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E i t h e r w a y t h o u g h M r N a t a s e n I w o u l d s u g g e s t t o y o u t h a t it w a s i n c u m b e n t u p o n N e o S o lu ti o n s t o m a k e th a t c l e a r to t h e C o m m is s i o n . Wa s i t n o t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o f a ir - y o u u n d e r s ta n d w e a l s o r e c e iv e d i t a n d w e w e r e a r r iv i n g t h e n e x t d a y. S o o u r s t a t e m e n t t h e n o b v i o u s ly w o u ld h a v e t h e n h a d t o c o v e r t h a t a s w e l l . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , b u t … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e w e r e a w a r e t h a t w a s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t th e s t a t e m e n t y o u p r o d u c e d o n 11 J u l y d i d n o t r e fl e c t th e d i s c r e p a n c y a t a ll . D i d i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll w e w e r e n o t - w e w e r e s t ill tr y i n g to o b v i o u s l y id e n t i fy t h e s e d i s c r e p a n c ie s o n o u r s i d e a n d w e w e r e s t ill w a i ti n g f o r h i s r e s o u r c e t o c o m e i n a n d a s s is t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n t h a t is w h y … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t is w h y w e g o t t h e n o ti c e o f t h e ir t e r m in a ti o n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. I t i s j u s t w h y I s p e n t a b i t o f ti m e g e t t in g c l e a r e a r l ie r w h a t t h e d i s c r e p a n c y w a s . The discrepancy as I u n d e r s t a n d i t w h e n y o u m e t o n t h e 1 0 t h it w a s m a d e k n o w n t o y o u w a s that Neo S o lu t io n s had submitted fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts to this C o m m i s s i o n p u r p o r ti n g t o h a v e b e e n s ig n e d o ff b y M r P a t e l w h ic h w e r e n o t s i g n e d o ff b y M r P a t e l . Page 100 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Why was it not incumbent upon you to make t h a t k n o w n to t h e C o m m i s s i o n a s s o o n a s p o s s i b le ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l w e - w e w a n te d to id e n ti fy w h a t c a u s e d t h e d is c r e p a n c i e s fi r s t s o w e c a n c o m e w i th t h e s o l u ti o n a n d t h e p r o b le m a t t h e s a m e t i m e . T h a t w a s o u r i n t e n t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Commission. S o it w a s n o t e n o u g h j u s t t o s a y h o ld o n Yo u a r e d e a li n g w i t h f in a n c ia ls p u r p o r t in g t o h a v e b e e n s ig n e d o ff b y th e c o m p a n y ’s a u d i t o r s th a t w e r e n o t s ig n e d o ff b y t h e 10 c o m p a n y ’s a u d i t o r s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : As I s a id w e h a d i m m e d i a t e ly s t a r te d a p r o c e s s t h e n t o t r y a n d r e b u il d t h e s e d i ffe r e n c e s o u r s e lv e s . I was not aware t h a t y o u w e r e g o in g t o g e t t o t h e fi n a n c i a l s d u r i n g m y t e s ti m o n y a n y w a y b u t i t w a s o u r in t e n t i o n o b v i o u s ly t o b r i n g a - a r e s p o n s e to y o u a s s o o n a s w e h a d a n i d e a o u r s e lv e s a s t o w h a t c a u s e d i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n w h y d o y o u s a y i t w a s n o t c le a r t h a t I w o u l d g e t to t h e f in a n c i a ls i n th a t te s t i m o n y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I m e a n I - I d id n o t c o n t e m p la t e i t a t t h a t p o i n t b u t o u r i n te n ti o n w a s t o b e a b l e t o i d e n ti f y w h a t c a u s e d th e d i ffe r e n c e s 20 a n d t h e n b r i n g y o u a c o m p l e t e r e s p o n s e a r o u n d it . N o t th a t w e b r i n g y o u o r th e r e is a p r o b le m h o l d b u t w e w e r e g o in g t o b r i n g i t a s o n e c o m p le t e p a c k a g e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And then later on he says, back at page 238.60, “ W il l r e v e r t b a c k t o y o u la t e r ” . Page 101 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n y o u s a y, “ R a n j u w e ’v e c o m e a l o n g w a y r e a ll y n e e d y o u r h e lp h e r e w e h a v e t o b e a b le t o r e c o n c i le t h is ” , W h a t h a d t o b e r e c o n c i le d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : R e c o n c il e d i n te r m s o f t h e d i ff e r e n c e s a n d t h e d is c r e p a n c ie s b e t w e e n t h e t w o s e ts o f f i n a n c i a ls , y o u ’l l s e e h e d id n ’ t a c t u a ll y s u p p l y y o u w i th a c o m p l e t e W h a ts A p p c o n v e r s a ti o n w h i c h is a t t h e b a c k o f m y a ffi d a v i t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . 10 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll y o u c a n r e f e r to w h e r e it is . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: What page again? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: I t ’s a t 2 3 8 . 2 7 3 . 238.273. O k a y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O k a y s o C h a ir, a t th a t p o i n t w e h a d e s t a b li s h e d a s w e ll a t t h a t m e e ti n g , w e h a d e s ta b lis h e d t h a t t h e 2 0 1 6 fi n a n c i a l s o n o u r s y s t e m o n P a s t e l h a d b e e n o v e r w r i t te n b y 2 0 1 7 d a t a . S o a t t h is p o i n t in ti m e I w a s s til l t r y i n g t o r e c o n s tr u c t th a t i n fo r m a ti o n w i t h i n o u r r e c o r d s a n d w e h a d n o th in g to w o r k f r o m o n o u r s id e . S o m y 20 fr a n t ic , i f y o u c a n c a ll it fr a n tic m e s s a g e s to R a n j u o r t o M r P a t e l w a s t o tr y a n d g a i n s o m e a s s i s ta n c e fr o m h i m i n t e r m s o f b e i n g a b le t o r e c o n s tr u c t t h e d a t a . S o w h e r e i t e n d s o n h is , “ L e t s w o r k t o g e t h e r o n fix i n g t h is ” , A n d y o u ’l l s e e s tr a ig h t a f t e r th a t I m e s s a g e d h i m t o s a y, “ H a v e y o u g u y s g o t t h e 2 0 1 6 tr i a l b a la n c e , t h e T B r e f e r s t o Page 102 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 tr i a l b a la n c e a n d t h e n I a s k e d w a s i t 2 0 1 7 th a t w a s w i t h th is d is c r e p a n c y r i g h t a n d t h e n c a n w e c h a t o n t h e p h o n e I n e e d t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e I s ta n d w i th y o u g u y s ” . S o t h a t w a s a g a i n , r e q u e s ti n g t h e a s s is ta n c e f o r t h e m to s e n d t h e r e s o u r c e t o c o m e a n d h e l p m e id e n ti fy th e d is c r e p a n c i e s th a t e x i s te d o r t h a t w e h a d o n ly f o u n d o u t t h e d a y b e f o r e . S o t h e r e w a s n o in t e n t io n t o h id e a n y t h i n g i t w a s t o b e a b le t o m a k e s u r e w e m a in t a i n c r e d i b ili t y t h a t w h e n w e – th e m o m e n t w e i d e n ti f i e d th e d is c r e p a n c i e s w a s t o b e a b l e t o id e n t i fy w h a t c a u s e d t h e m a n d t h e n b r i n g th e m 10 t h r o u g h to th e C o m m i s s i o n a s o n e c o m p l e te r e s p o n s e s a y i n g , w e a r e a w a r e t h a t w e g a v e y o u t h i s w e n o w – w e h a v e d e te c t e d th is is s u e a n d h e r e ’s t h e c o r r e c t e d v e r s i o n o r h e r e ’s r e a s o n s f o r t h e d i ffe r e n c e s b e t w e e n th e t w o s e ts , t h a t w a s t h e i n te n ti o n o f th is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a ta s e n , w h y d id y o u s a y t o h i m – I’ m back at page 238.6 C, “ W e h a v e n ’ t b e e n a b l e t o r e c o n c i le t h i s a s it w i ll h u r t a ll o f u s ” . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t ’s d a m a g in g to b o th c o m p a n i e s ’ r e p u t a ti o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n a s I u n d e r s t a n d M r P a t e l ’s v e r s i o n , h e s i g n e d o ff o n a s e t o f f i n a n c ia ls a n d w h e n t h o s e s a m e 20 fi n a n c i a l s w e r e p r o v i d e d t o t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e C o m m is s i o n d i ff e r e n t fi n a n c i a l s w e r e p la c e d u n d e r h is a c c o m p a n y i n g l e tt e r. W h y w o u l d t h a t h u r t M r P a te l a t a l l? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k b y th e v e r y f a c t t h a t a n y c o m p a n y o r p e r s o n t h a t ’s m e n ti o n e d c o m i n g t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n is a u t o m a ti c a lly f a c i n g a r e p u t a ti o n a l r i s k . Page 103 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t i f th a t p e r s o n , if I m a y, is th e p e r s o n w h o b r i n g s to t h e a t te n ti o n o f t h e C o m m is s i o n s o m e th i n g t h a t is i n c o r r e c t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Fa ir e n o u g h b u t t h e r e ’s a l s o – y o u m u s t a ls o u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t Mr P a te l h a s a r o u n d h is r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s fo r c o m p i la t io n a n d w h a t h e ’s s a y i n g i n h is a ffi d a v i t is v e r y d i ffe r e n t to m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d w h e n I s a y h e r e , t h a t w e ’ v e c o m e a l o n g w a y, Mr P a t e l a s s i s t e d m e i n a d is p u t e r e s o l u ti o n p r o c e s s w i t h S A R S w h e r e h e w a s , h i m a n d h is t e a m w e r e c l o s e l y i n v o l v e d in r e s o l v i n g t h e d is p u te s w e h a d w i t h S A R S a t th a t p o i n t i n ti m e in o u r 10 2 0 1 0 to 2 0 1 4 f in a n c ia ls . S o w h e n I s a y I ’v e c o m e a l o n g w a y h e r e , h e ’s a w a r e o f s h o r tc o m in g s i n m y o w n a c c o u n t s d e p a r t m e n t . S o h is u n d e r t a k i n g t o m e w h e n i t c o m e s t o c o m p il a t i o n o f my f in a n c i a ls i s f a r m o r e – th e o b li g a t io n h e g a v e m e f o r h i m s e l f i s f a r g r e a te r t h a n w h a t h e ’s p u r p o r ti n g i t to b e r ig h t n o w. S o h e h a d g iv e n m e u n d e r t a k i n g s t h a t h e ’s th e w a tc h d o g o v e r my a c c o u n t s d e p a r t m e n t t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e fi n a n c i a l s a n d t h e m a n a g e m e n t a c c o u n ts a r e c o r r e c t w h e n h e p r e p a r e s t h e m f a r b e y o n d ju s t w h a t h e ’s s a y in g a s h is r e s p o n s i b i li ty e n d e d a t p u r e ly c o m p il a ti o n . H e w a s a w a r e o f th e p r o c e s s t h a t w e w e n t t h r o u g h t h e A D R a n d S A R S a n d h e a s s i s t e d m e g r e a t ly w i th t h a t a n d h e h a d 20 g iv e n m e u n d e r t a k i n g s th a t h e w o u l d b e a b e t t e r w a t c h d o g th a n a c o n v e n t io n a l a c c o u n t a n t. T h a t is t h e c o n t e x t o f t h i s i t e m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d o ff t h e b a c k o f h is a ffi d a v it h e t r a v e r s e d none of that did he? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E x a c tl y. A ll h e s a i d i n h is a ffi d a v i t i s , Page 104 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 “ I s i g n e d o ff o n a v e r s io n , I ’v e s e e n a d i ffe r e n t v e r s i o n p r e s e n t e d t o t h e S t a t e C a p tu r e C o m m i s s i o n , th a t ’s c o n c e r n i n g I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w t h a t h a p p e n e d , I ’ m b r i n g i n g i t to y o u r a tt e n ti o n S t a t e C a p tu r e C o m m i s s i o n a n d I’ m r e f e r r i n g y o u t o W h a t s A p p c o m m u n i c a t io n w h ic h s p e a k s f o r i ts e lf , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t a n d t h a t’s n o t t h e v e r s i o n t h a t is th e r e w e w ill c o v e r i t q u i t e e x te n s iv e l y u n d e r m y r e - e x a m in a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d , a t th is p o in t I’ m j u s t i n te r e s t e d i n w h a t M r P a t e l s a id t o th e C o m m i s s io n . 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ja. C o r r e c t , a n d th e n i f w e g o i n to y o u r a ff i d a v i t a g a in , if w e m a y, w h ic h i s a r e s p o n s e t o t h is , y o u ’ ll f in d i t a t 2 3 8 .2 6 8 t h a t ’s w h e r e y o u s t a r t e n g a g i n g th e c o n t e x t o f t h e W h a ts A p p , d o y o u s e e t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d t h e n y o u ’v e a c t u a ll y t r a v e r s e d q u i t e a b i t o f th a t a lr e a d y i n y o u r t e s ti m o n y s o I’ d lik e t o g o o v e r t h e p a g e 2 3 8 .2 6 9 a n d p i c k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 th e r e y o u ’r e ta lk in g a b o u t t h e ta s k s t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o u n d e r t a k e t o tr y a n d s o r t t h i s a c c o u n ti n g m e s s , f o r 20 w a n t o f a b e t t e r d e s c r ip t io n . C a n y o u j u s t r e a d i n t o th e r e c o r d w h a t y o u s a y a t t h e b e g in n in g o f p a r a g r a p h 1 0 t h e r e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : On paragraph 10? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n d e e d . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : “ I u n d e r to o k th e a b o v e t a s k d u e to th e f a c t – d e s p i te t h e fa c t th a t I v e r i ly b e l ie v e d t h a t N e o S o l u t i o n s is n o t Page 105 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 o b li g e d t o p r e p a r e a u d i t e d f in a n c ia l s ta t e m e n t s a s t h e s o l e d ir e c t o r and s h a r e h o ld e r of Neo S o lu t io n s , I felt t h a t ” … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t h a t ’s fi n e i f w e c a n j u s t s t o p a t t h a t s e n te n c e i f w e m a y, y o u s a y t h e r e N e o S o l u ti o n s is n o t o b li g e d t o p r e p a r e a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts , is t h a t r i g h t? I u n d e r s t o o d fr o m your testimony last time you understand that because the Companies A c t d o e s n o t r e q u i r e i t, is th a t r i g h t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 10 Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s N e o S o l u ti o n e v e r u n d e r a n y l e g a l o b li g a ti o n o t h e r w is e t o p r o v i d e a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l w e a w a r e o f n o w fr o m th e o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty t h a t t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r e q u i r e m e n t t o p r o v i d e o n e t h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d o y o u m e a n , w e ’r e a w a r e n o w th a t t h e o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty r e q u ir e d i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l I’ m s a y i n g , a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e a s a p r i v a t e c o m p a n y I w a s n ’ t a w a r e o f th e o b l ig a ti o n u n d e r th e o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty s o t h a t ’s p r o b a b l y w h y I’ m m a k in g t h is s t a t e m e n t h e r e n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W h e n d id y o u b e c o m e a w a r e ? W e l l I ’v e s ig n e d t h e o v e r d r a f t f a c il it y d o c u m e n t b u t o b v io u s ly in t h e r e I h a d n ’ t r e c a ll e d t h a t th e r e w a s a n o b l i g a t io n t o p r o d u c e fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts t o th e b a n k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So when did you become aware? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l w h e n y o u n o w p o in t e d i t o u t to m e n o w, I r e c a l l e d t h a t i t ’s t h e c a s e . Page 106 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : there because Mr S o C h a ir i t’s p r o b a b l y n o t n e c e s s a r y t o g o N a ta s e n c o n f ir m s but that overdraft fa c i li ty a g r e e m e n t w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t e a r l ie r fr o m N e d b a n k r e q u ir e s q u a r t e r l y m a n a g e m e n t a c c o u n t s t o b e p r o v i d e d a n d a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts t o b e p r o v i d e d w it h in a p e r i o d a t th e e n d o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r o f t h e c o m p a n y. S o Mr N a ta s e n I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e u n t il y o u r e c e i v e d t h a t d o c u m e n t a d a y a g o fr o m t h e C o m m is s i o n y o u w e r e n ’ t a w a r e t h a t N e o S o lu t io n s h a d t o p r o v i d e a u d i te d fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts t o your bank? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A ll I’ m s a y in g is t h e r e q u i r e m e n t fr o m th e in t e r a c ti o n w i th t h e b a n k s w a s fa ir l y r e la x e d i n th a t w e h a d b e e n p r o v i d in g t h e m w i t h t h e c a s h fl o w s s c h e d u l e a n d t h e b a n k s – a s l o n g a s t h e c h u r n w a s b e i n g s h o w n i n th e b a n k a c c o u n t t h e y d i d n ’ t p u t p r e s s u r e o n u s f o r a n y t h i n g e ls e . COMMISSIONER: S o r r y s o y o u r a n s w e r w a s g e n e r a ll y s p e a k i n g , r e l a ti n g t o t h e g e n e r a l p o s i t io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: Correct. T h a t g e n e r a l ly y o u d i d n ’ t th in k th e r e w a s a n o b li g a ti o n ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: Correct. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Did Nedbank ever ask you for audited fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e y m a y h a v e a s k e d t h e a c c o u n ti n g te a m b e c a u s e t h e b u s i n e s s b a n k e r u s e d t o i n t e r a c t w i th t h e a c c o u n ti n g s t a ff . Page 107 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Would that not have been brought to your a tt e n ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Yo u m u s t u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir t h a t I’ m v e r y o p e r a ti o n a l i n t h e f i e l d , I l iv e o n th e p r o j e c ts a n d th e te a m – b e t w e e n t h e a c c o u n t i n g t e a m a n d t h e o u ts o u r c e to m a n y fi n a n c i a l s e r v ic e s t h e b a c k o ffi c e w a s b e in g a d m i n is t e r e d a n d lo o k e d a f t e r b y t h e m . I ’ m v e r y o p e r a ti o n a l o n t h e p r o je c t s t h e m s e l v e s , s o w h e t h e r t h e y r a i s e d i t w i t h m e o r n o t , I ’ m li v i n g o u t i n t h e f i e l d a n d g e n e r a l ly t h e y w o u l d a t te n d t o t h e s t u ff i n te r n a l ly a t t h e o ff ic e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n w h y th e n d o y o u s a y t h a t a s a p o s i ti v e f a c t N e o S o lu t io n s h a d n o o b li g a t io n to p r o v id e a u d it e d fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I’ m s a y i n g t h a t a s o r d i n a r i ly a s a p r iv a te c o m p a n y n o t n e e d in g fo r a n y t h i n g e l s e , t h a t ’s o u r n o r m a l c o u r s e o f business. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t m e ju s t c la r i fy f o r o u r p u r p o s e s y o u w e r e n ’t a w a r e th a t t h e R 5 m il li o n o v e r d r a ft f a c i li t y a g r e e m e n t y o u ’ d c o n c l u d e d w i th N e d b a n k i n 2 0 1 5 r e q u ir e d y o u r c o m p a n y t o p r o v id e a u d it e d f i n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I w a s a w a r e a t t h e ti m e o f s ig n i n g b u t I w a s a ls o a w a r e th a t i t w a s i n n o r m a l fl o w, s o a ll I’ m s a y i n g is , I d i d n ’ t r e c a ll it , I d i d n ’ t tr e a t i t a s a p r i o r it y, t h e f a c t th a t t h e o n g o i n g fi n a n c i a l in f o r m a ti o n w a s b e in g s e n t t o t h e b a n k a n d t h e y w e r e s e e i n g c h u r n i n t h e a c c o u n t , i t t h e n d r o p p e d o ff e v e r y b o d y ’s r a d a r s c r e e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u r c o m p a n y p r o d u c e a u d i te d fi n a n c i a l Page 108 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 s t a te m e n ts i n c o m p l i a n c e w i t h it ’s o b li g a ti o n w h ic h y o u ’v e ju s t t e s ti fi e d you were aware of in 2015? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e – y o u m e a n t h a t ’s t h e fi n a n c i a ls t h a t P a t e l w o u ld h a v e p r o d u c e d t h e n o r t h e m a n a g e m e n t a c c o u n ts t h a t t h e y produced? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t h a t’s d i ff e r e n t t o a u d i t e d f i n a n c ia l s t a te m e n ts is i t n o t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : F o r 2 0 1 5 w e h a v e n o t s u b m i tt e d a n y t h i n g t o S A R S y e t w e ’ r e s ti ll b u s y w i th t h e p r o c e s s o f – o b v i o u s l y w e h a d c o m e 10 t h r o u g h a n A D R p r o c e s s w i th t h e m a n d th e n w e w e r e t a k in g th e o p e n i n g b a l a n c e s fr o m t h e r e i n to r e c o n s tr u c ti n g t h e r e c o r d s a ft e r th a t . S o th e la s t o ff ic i a l r e s p o n s e o f f in a n c ia l s t a te m e n ts w a s g iv e n – is t h e 2 0 1 4 fi n a n c i a l s t h a t i s t h e fi n a l is e d d is p u te r e s o l u ti o n w i t h S A R S a n d P a te l w a s a s s is t in g u s w i t h a l l o f t h o s e p r o c e s s e s w it h S A R S . I t t o o k a l o n g ti m e t o c o n c lu d e t h e A D R p r o c e s s w it h S A R S w h ic h w a s o n ly c o n c l u d e d , I t h in k , t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 7 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h o u g h t e a r l ie r y o u ’ d s a i d 2 0 1 4 . 2 0 1 4 fi n a n c i a l s b u t t h e A D R p r o c e s s o n fi n a l is i n g 2 0 1 4 ’s r e s u l t s w a s o n ly c o n c lu d e d in 2 0 1 7 , m a y b e p o s s i b l y 20 2018. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n y o u ’ ll f o r g i v e m e I a m ju s t s tr u g g li n g t o f o l l o w y o u r v e r s i o n o n t h i s a s p e c t . I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e y o u k n e w i n 2 0 1 5 w h e n y o u s i g n e d y o u r f a c il i ti e s a g r e e m e n t t h a t a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s w e r e r e q u ir e d , c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . Page 109 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y d i d y o u s a y in a n a ff id a v i t th e n t h a t N e o S o lu t io n s is n o t o b li g e d t o p r e p a r e a u d i te d fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : In the normal course of a small company under t h e C o m p a n ie s A c t w e w e r e n ’ t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a ta s e n t h a t is n o t w h a t is s a id h e r e , d o y o u a c c e p t th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : F a i r e n o u g h I w il l t h e n c o n c e d e , I h a d n ’ t r e c a l l e d t h a t i t w a s a n o b li g a ti o n u n d e r t h e o v e r d r a f t fa c i li ty a g r e e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Ye s a n d y o u r e c a l le d it w h e n t h e d o c u m e n ts w e r e s e n t t o y o u t w o d a y s a g o , is th a t r i g h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Mr N a t a s e n y o u th e n , a t 2 6 9 c o n ti n u e t o s a y t h a t th e r e w a s a c o n tr o v e r s y, th is is a t p a r a g r a p h 11 , y o u s a y, “ F u r t h e r a s a b u s i n e s s m a n I w a s v e r y c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th e r i s k o f r e p u t a ti o n a l h a r m w h ic h c o u ld b e s u ff e r e d b y N e o S o l u t i o n s a n d [i n d is t in c t ] i n s u c h a s it u a ti o n e s p e c ia ll y i n li g h t o f t h e c o n tr o v e r s y w h i c h N e o S o l u ti o n s is in v o l u n ta r il y i n v o l v e d i n b y b e i n g a s s o c i a t e d w i th c e r t a i n p a r t i e s ” , J u s t h e l p m e t h e r e , w h a t is th a t c o n tr o v e r s y ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I ’ m s a y i n g b y t h e v e r y f a c t o f b e i n g i m p l ic a te d b y – w it h v a n W y k a n d t h e S A E x p r e s s s a g a t h a t is w h a t t h is is r e fe r r i n g t o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d i n v o l u n t a r il y, w h a t d o e s th a t m e a n t h e r e ? Because – well we were unaware that the f u n d s w e r e S t a te m o n e y a t t h e t i m e , s o w e w o u l d n ’ t h a v e p a r ti c i p a t e d Page 110 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 in t h is h a d w e k n o w n i t w a s S t a t e m o n e y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n if w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e y o u a r e d e a li n g t h e r e w i t h y o u r i m p lo r in g o f M r P a te l a s s i s t i n r e c o n c i li n g a n d y o u s a y t h e r e a t 1 3 , “I implored Patel to a tt e n d to r e c o n c il in g th e fi n a n c i a l d o c u m e n t a ti o n a s w e ll t o p r o v i d e th e r e l e v a n t tr i a l b a l a n c e s a s a m a tt e r o f u r g e n c y s o t h a t m y a fo r e m e n ti o n e d c o n c e r n s w o u l d n o t m a t e r ia li s e a n d h u r t a ll o f u s a n d a ls o b e c a u s e I h a d n o id e a w h o e ls e h a d s e e n s u c h i n c o r r e c t fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts ” , 10 C a n I j u s t s t o p t h e r e , w h o e ls e c o u l d h a v e s e e n th e i n c o r r e c t fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e n o i d e a w h o – w h e t h e r i t w a s s e n t o u t to a n y o n e e l s e , t h o s e in c o r r e c t f i n a n c i a ls w h e r e u n d e r t h e c o n tr o l o f R u e b e n a t o u r a c c o u n ts d e p a r t m e n t , s o t h e r e w a s n o i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m m e t o d is tr ib u t e i t w i t h a n y o n e e l s e s o t h i s i s – w e ’v e m a d e a g e n e r i c s t a te m e n t h e r e t h a t w e ’r e n o t s u r e o f i t ’s d is tr i b u ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So would people in your employ be d is t r i b u t in g t h e fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s o f N e o S o l u t io n s w i t h o u t y o u knowing? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I ’ m s a y in g t h e fa c t t h a t t h e y w e r e t w o d i ff e r e n t s e ts o f f i n a n c ia l s t a te m e n ts r i g h t , a n d w e ’l l d e a l l a t e r w i t h t h e fa c t t h a t M r R e u b e n – w e ’v e n o w e s t a b l is h e d t h a t a t l e a s t R 7 4 0 0 0 0 w a s m is a p p r o p r ia t e d f r o m t h e c o m p a n y d ir e c t ly to h is o w n b a n k a c c o u n t . S o w o u ld t h e r e b e a n y r e a s o n f o r h i m t o t a k e t w o s e t s o f – o r c r e a t e t w o s e t s o f fi n a n c i a ls , y e s m a y b e t o d is tr a c t fr o m w h a t h e w a s d o i n g Page 111 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 b u t i f h e c ir c u la t e d th o s e in c o r r e c t f i n a n c ia ls s o m e w h e r e e ls e , I ’ m n o t s u r e o f it , a n d t h is is w h a t t h is s t a t e m e n t i s in t e n d e d t o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o it ’s g o t n o th i n g t o d o w i t h Mr P a t e l ? No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u t b e c a u s e h i s s ig n a t u r e i s o n th a t d o c u m e n t it d o e s h a v e a n i m p li c a t i o n t o h i m , l ik e w i t h my s i g n a t u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r P a t e l a s I h a v e i t h a s n o d i ffic u lt y w i t h t h e o n e s h e s i g n e d o ff o n , c o r r e c t? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g b u t t h e f a c t is t h a t t h e r e a r e tw o – th e r e ’s a n i m p l ic a t i o n b y a l r e a d y b e i n g a t t h e C o m m is s i o n s o t h e c o n te x t o f th is w o r d in g is e x a c t ly a g a i n s t t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t e x p l a in t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e fa c t t h a n n o w, M a n n i e ’s n a m e i s b r o u g h t u p a t th e C o m m is s i o n a s is o u r n a m e t h e n h a s a r e p u ta t io n a l i m p a c t s o w e n e e d to w o r k t o g e t h e r o n r e s o lv in g i t , t h a t w a s th e c o n t e x t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u g o a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o n t h a t p a g e to s a y – w e ll le t m e g o a l i tt l e b i t h i g h e r, y o u s a y a t 1 6 , “ To a ffi r m th e a fo r e m e n ti o n e d c o n te x t th e fu ll W h a ts A p p 20 c o n v e r s a ti o n b e tw e e n m y s e l f a n d P a t e l is a tt a c h e d ” , A n d w e ’v e lo o k e d a t t h a t p r e v io u s ly a n d t h e n a t 1 7 , c o u l d y o u read to us what you say at 17? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I said, “ T h e C o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l te a m is in c o r r e c t a n d i m p r o p e r ly o r p r e m a tu r e ly c la i m in g th a t m y m e s s a g e s w e r e in t e n d e d t o Page 112 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 in fl u e n c e M r P a te l t o g iv e fa ls e e v i d e n c e to t h e C o m m i s s i o n . I n f a c t , t h e r e ’s n o a t t e m p t b y m e o f a n y s u c h n a t u r e a n d f o r t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s le g a l t e a m t o c a s t s u c h a s p e r s io n s is spurious”. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a ta s e n w h y d o y o u s a y t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e C o m m is s i o n is c a s t in g a s p e r s i o n s o n y o u ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e in s i n u a t io n th a t y o u – o b v i o u s ly b y r e a d i n g ju s t t h is w i t h o u t t h e f u ll c o n t e x t w o u ld a p p e a r – o r y o u w o u ld t r y t o c r e a te a c a s e t h a t I ’ m tr y i n g t o i n fl u e n c e P a t e l n o t t o c o o p e r a te w h i c h 10 is n o t t h e c a s e a t a ll . A ll I s a i d w a s w e n e e d t o w o r k t o g e th e r t o g e t t o t h e b o t t o m o f t h i s a n d t h e n c o m e w i t h a c o h e s iv e r e s p o n s e s o t h a t w e c a n c l a r i fy w h a t c a u s e d th e s e d is c r e p a n c i e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n d o y o u r e c a ll h o w y o u w e r e a s k e d o r i n v i te d b y t h e C o m m is s i o n t o a d d r e s s M r P a t e l ’s a ffi d a v i t in c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e fo r e y o u p r e s e n te d t h e a ffi d a v i t y o u r s e l f ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Do you recall that the correspondence said t h a t th e r e w e r e c e r t a i n a ll e g a t i o n s i n M r P a te l’s a ff id a v i t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d t h o s e w e r e i d e n t i fi e d a k i n to a s o r t o f R u l e 3 3 p r o c e s s , y o u ’r e f a m ili a r w i th t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d b e c a u s e y o u ’v e r e c e i v e d a R u l e 3 3 n o t ic e i n r e la t io n t o M s Ts la ts a n a ’s e v id e n c e correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o i t ’s a ll e g a t io n s ly in g i n t h e a ff i d a v i t o f t h e Page 113 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 p e r s o n th a t y o u ’r e a le r t in g a b o u t t h e fa c t o f t h e a ffi d a v i t , d o y o u a c c e p t that? MR VIVIEN N ATA S E N : I d o n ’ t u n d e r s ta n d the context of it b u t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e e x p la i n , w e c a n m a y b e g o t o th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i f t h a t w o u l d h e l p i t ’s a t 4 4 2 . 3 4 a n d t h a t ’s i n b u n d l e D D 1 0 B C h a ir. C h a i r th e l e tt e r b e g i n s a t 4 4 2 . 3 2 , d o y o u h a v e i t M r Natasen? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d i t ’s a l e t te r a d d r e s s e d t o y o u r s e lv e s o n t h e 1 5 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 9 , d o y o u s e e th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . T h a t w a s t h e M o n d a y a f t e r y o u t e s t if i e d o n t h e Fr id a y, w a s n ’ t i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o t h is l e tt e r – h a v e y o u r e a d t h is l e t te r before? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s . I t ’s fo ll o w i n g u p o n a s p e c ts o f t h e e v i d e n c e a s I h a v e it a n d t h e n i f y o u g o o v e r t o 4 4 2 . 3 4 y o u ’l l s e e a t p a r a g r a p h 8 o n t h a t p a g e t h e C o m m i s s io n w r i t e s , “ F in a lly o n 11 J u ly 2 0 1 9 y o u w e r e p r o v i d e d w i t h a c o p y o f Mr P a t e l ’s a ff id a v i t t h a t h a d b e e n p r o v id e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n o n e v e n d a t e , a n d i t s a y s , t h e a ff i d a v i t m a k e s th e f o l lo w in g a l le g a ti o n s a g a i n s t M r N a ta s e n ” , Page 114 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d t h e n t h e y ’r e s e t o u t in p a r a g r a p h 8 . 1 a n d then over the page at paragraph 8.2, do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n I ju s t w a n t to p a u s e th e r e b e c a u s e i n y o u r te s ti m o n y j u s t n o w t h e C o m m is s i o n i s tr y in g t o m a k e o u t a c a s e , r i g h t, d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t a ll t h a t ’s b e i n g s a id h e r e is t h a t t h e r e ’s c e r t a i n a ll e g a t i o n s a g a i n s t y o u in t h e a ffi d a v it o f Mr P a t e l ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . And do you accept that at the time your f u r th e r c o n te x t w a s n o t a v a i la b l e t o t h e C o m m i s s io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u w e r e i n v i te d t o r e s p o n d to i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d w h e n t o o k is s u e w it h th is y o u w e r e a g a i n in v i te d t o r e s p o n d t o i t a n d p r o v i d e t h e c o n t e x t is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s i n w h ic h p a r a g r a p h 8 o f t h is a ffi d a v i t a n d p a r t ic u l a r ly o v e r t h e p a g e a t p a r a g r a p h 8 . 2 it w a s r e c o r d e d t h a t t h e r e i s a n a l l e g a ti o n i n M r P a t e l ’s a ffi d a v i t th a t y o u , Mr N a t a s e n h a d e n d e a v o u r e d t o i n fl u e n c e M r P a t e l to g iv e f a ls e e v i d e n c e t o th e C o m m i s s io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . Page 115 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u c o m p l e t e d t h e p o i n t w h ic h I t h o u g h t y o u w e r e s e e k i n g t o m a k e M is s H o f m e y r, I u n d e r s ta n d Mi s s H o f m e y r ’s l a s t f e w q u e s t i o n s i n r e la t io n t o t h i s – to b e m e a n t t o s u g g e s t t o y o u t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n ’s l e g a l te a m m i g h t n o t h a v e s o u g h t t o m a k e a n y a l le g a ti o n s … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J a I u n d e r s ta n d t h e c o n te x t i t ’s c o n t a in e d in … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Yo u a c c e p t t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: I accept that. Ye s , o k a y a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n y o u – th a n k y o u C h a i r j u s t fo ll o w t h a t u p b e c a u s e h is a ff id a v i t c o n t e n d s t o d e m a n d a n i m m e d ia t e u n c o n d i t io n a l a n d i r r e v o c a b le w i t h d r a w a l o f th e a ll e g a t i o n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C h a i r I t h in k w e ’ r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h th is a s w e ll u n d e r m y r e - e x a m i n a ti o n s s o … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t d e a l w i th i t n o w b e c a u s e t h e r e - e x a m i n a ti o n t h a t w il l h a p p e n is i n te n d e d to c la r i fy w h a t m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n d e a l t w i t h a d e q u a t e l y. 20 S o i t ’s b e t te r if y o u d e a l w i th i t n o w a n d i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u r c o u n s e l w is h e s to c l a r if y l a t e r o n , h e w il l d o s o . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y, c a n y o u r e p e a t t h e q u e s t i o n ? Ye s , s o g i v e n y o u r a n s w e r t o t h e C h a i r I ta k e it t h a t y o u d o n ’ t , a n y l o n g e r d e m a n d t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m i m m e d i a t e ly, u n c o n d i t io n a l ly a n d ir r e v o c a b ly w i t h d r a w t h e a l le g a ti o n s made? Page 116 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I’ m s a y i n g t h e r e ’s a p e r c e p ti o n t h a t w e a tt e m p t e d t o in f lu e n c e th a t i s i n c o r r e c t t h e r e is a c o n t e x t t h a t w e p r o v i d e d a n d i f t h a t p e r c e p t i o n s ti ll e x is ts th a t w e a t t e m p te d t o in fl u e n c e t h e n w e w o u l d o b v i o u s ly s e e k c o r r e c ti o n o n th a t a n d w e w i ll d e a l w it h t h a t th e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n y o u a c c e p t i t’s n o t t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s a ll e g a t i o n , i s i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s o k a y I’ ll c o n c e d e t h a t f o r n o w f o r m o v i n g on. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , M r N a t a s e n t h e r e w a s a m a t t e r, it ’s a b r i e f m a t t e r b e f o r e w e b r e a k a n d t h e n C h a ir t h e r e ’s o n ly o n e m a t t e r a f t e r l u n c h b r e a k t h a t I w il l d e a l w i t h b u t j u s t b e fo r e t h a t , w e d e a lt with a d o n a ti o n last time that appeared in your 2016 fi n a n c i a l s … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: A r e w e b a c k t o th e o th e r b u n d l e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w e w o n ’ t e v e n n e e d t o g o to t h e b u n d l e C h a ir b e c a u s e i t r e l a t e s s i m p l y to t h e t e s ti m o n y o f M r N a t a s e n la s t ti m e . W e w e r e l o o k i n g a t a d o n a ti o n e n tr y i n y o u r 2 0 1 6 fi n a n c i a ls , d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d I a s k e d w h e t h e r y o u k n e w w h a t – to w h o m t h a t d o n a t io n h a d b e e n m a d e , d o y o u r e c a ll ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A n d t h e n y o u r te s t i m o n y w a s , y o u d id n ’ t r e c a l l but then you and I agreed if we could get the accounting records that Page 117 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 m a y b e d is c l o s e d , d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M r N a t a s e n w e ’ v e b e e n in d e b t e d t o y o u s i n c e t h a t e v i d e n c e t o h a v e p r o v i d e d u s w i th t h o s e a c c o u n ti n g r e c o r d s w h ic h y o u ’v e m a n a g e d t o a s s e m b le . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J a t h e p a r ti a l p o r ti o n i t’s a n o n g o i n g p r o c e s s . I t ’s a n o n g o i n g p r o c e s s , i n f a ir n e s s i t s o u n d s a s t h o u g h t h e a c c o u n ti n g s y s t e m i n y o u r b u s in e s s is i n c o m p l e te s h a m b l e s , is th a t f a ir ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ’ v e t e c h n ic a ll y b e e n s a b o t a g e d , th e in f o r m a ti o n h a s b e e n to t a l ly r e m o v e d fr o m p r e m is e s , o b v i o u s ly in a n a tt e m p t t o c o v e r u p th e f r a u d . Th e n a t u r e o f t h e fr a u d o b v i o u s ly w a s h e h a d a m e n d e d b e n e fi c i a r y d a t a s o e v e n w h e r e w e h a d p a y m e n ts th a t a p p e a r e d t o b e v a li d to s u p p l ie r s , t h e r e a c t u a ll y h a d b e e n a l te r e d b a n k a c c o u n t s to b e o t h e r b a n k a c c o u n ts a n d t h e n th e s u p p o r t i n g d o c u m e n ts a r e n o n - e x i s t e n t , s o t h e r e c o n s t r u c t i o n p r o c e s s is a l o n g h a r d h a u l f o r u s r i g h t n o w. S o w h a t e v e r w e ’v e b e e n a b l e t o p u t to g e th e r h a s forwarded across. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 T h a n k y o u I f o u n d n o d o c u m e n t s th e r e d e a li n g w i t h t h e d o n a t io n , d i d y o u c o m e a c r o s s a n y t h i n g ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W h e n w e a t t e m p t e d t o e s ta b l is h w h a t c a u s e d t h e s e d o n a ti o n s fr o m w h a t w e c a n s e e i t’s f a r l e s s t h a n th a t b u t w e a r e b u s y r e c o n s tr u c ti n g t h e r e c o r d s s o I c a n ’ t y e t a n s w e r – I k n o w fo r a f a c t w e ’v e n o w a y m a d e a n y w h e r e c l o s e t o t h o s e k in d s o f a m o u n ts a s d o n a ti o n s b u t u n t il I r e c o n s tr u c t t h e r e c o r d I c a n n o t c o m e b a c k a n d s a y Page 118 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w h a t th a t e x a c t n u m b e r w a s , i t’s d e fi n i t e l y n o t R 2 mi ll i o n t h o u g h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o w h e n y o u s ig n e d a s th e d i r e c t o r o f N e o S o l u ti o n s , t h o s e Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 f i n a n c ia ls , d id y o u – w e r e y o u n o t a w a r e th a t th e r e w a s a n o v e r ly e x a g g e r a te d d o n a t io n a m o u n t i n i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I d i d n ’ t – a s I s a i d I r e l ie d o n th e f a c t th a t M r P a t e l w a s c h e c k i n g th e s e f in a n c ia ls a n d h e w a s t h e w a tc h d o g o v e r t h e p r o c e s s . S o i f it w a s p u t in t h e r e I d i d n ’ t e v e n l o o k a t t h a t n u m b e r, I s i g n e d o ff . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Yo u d i d n ’ t lo o k a t t h a t n u m b e r o r a n y o t h e r p a r t o f t h e f in a n c ia l s ta t e m e n ts w h e n y o u s i g n e d o ff c o n fir m i n g t h e ir accuracy? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I w o u l d h a v e c a s t m y e y e a r o u n d t h e t o ta ls o f t h e i n c o m e , t h e n e t t in c o m e t h e n o b v io u s l y l o o k e d a t t h e b a l a n c e s h e e t t h a t it l o o k e d r e a s o n a b l e a n d t h a t w a s i t b u t w i t h o u t g o i n g i n t o s p e c i f ic s o f n u m b e r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u t h i n k th a t’s s o r e a s o n a b le a p p r o a c h f o r a c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n t a n t t o ta k e w h e n s i g n i n g o ff o n th e fi n a n c i a l s o f h is b u s in e s s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 20 I ’ m n o t o p e r a t in g a s a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t i n my business. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n I k n o w t h a t ’s a n a s p e c t th a t y o u w a n t t o ta k e u p i n r e l a t io n t o Mr L o u v e n t e ll ’s a ffi d a v i t a n d w e ’ ll d o t h a t a ft e r t h e b r e a k , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i n y o u r te s ti m o n y o n t h e l a s t o c c a s i o n y o u a c c e p te d t h a t y o u w e r e a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t i n business? Page 119 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s I d i d c o n c e d e it t h e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u n o w t a k e a d i ff e r e n t v i e w, c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I ’ m s a y i n g o b v i o u s l y w e w ill b e g u i d e d b y M r L o u v e n te ll ’s a ffi d a v it w h e n w e g o t h r o u g h t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I ’ m j u s t a s k in g w h e t h e r y o u , n o w, s a y t h a t y o u ’r e n o t a c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n ta n t i n b u s i n e s s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I ’ m s a y i n g t h e p r o v is i o n s t o h o w a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t i n b u s i n e s s i s m e a s u r e d i n t e r ms o f h i s r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s t o t h e c o m p a n y is r e l a te d t o w h a t s e r v ic e s h e p e r f o r m s w i t h i n t h a t 10 c o m p a n y. I ’ m n o t o p e r a t in g a s a c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n t a n t i n m y c o m p a n y, I’ m t e c h n i c a ll y a p r o j e c t m a n a g e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n y o u c o n c e d e d t h a t l a s t ti m e i t w a s in error? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s n ’ t i n e r r o r i t w a s b e i n g p u t o n th e s p o t a t th a t p o i n t in ti m e s a y i n g , y e s I a m a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n ta n t , I a m o n e in b u s i n e s s I w a s n ’ t a w a r e o f t h e s p e c i fi c o b l ig a ti o n s a n d p r o v i s i o n s r e l a ti n g to t h a t . I ’ m n o t o p e r a t in g i n t h e a c c o u n t s d e p a r t m e n t o f my o w n b u s i n e s s , I’ v e o u ts o u r c e d t h a t a c ti v i ty t o a n i n t e r n a l a c c o u n ti n g d e p a r t m e n t a s w e ll a s a n e x t e r n a l c o m p il a ti o n e n g a g e m e n t w h e r e t h e y 20 u n d e r t o o k t o p r o v i d e c e r t a i n s e r v ic e s t o m e . S o I’ m a ll o w e d to r e ly o n t h o s e s e r v ic e s i n o r d e r t o a s s u m e c e r ta i n t h i n g s , w h i c h I d id a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e . CHAIRPERSON: S o b a s i c a ll y w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is , I a m a n a c c o u n t a n t I d o h a v e t h e k n o w l e d g e th a t c a n b e r e a s o n a b l e e x p e c te d o f a n a c c o u n t a n t b u t i n t h e b u s i n e s s I a m n o t o p e r a t in g a s a n a c c o u n t a n t , Page 120 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 I’ v e h i r e d s o m e b o d y e l s e a s a n a c c o u n ta n t to lo o k a f te r t h e b u s in e s s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s C h a ir, in t e r n a l ly a n d e x t e r n a l ly. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d Mr N a ta s e n w h e n d i d y o u c o m e to t h e r e a li s a t io n t h a t y o u ’r e n o t a c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n ta n t i n business? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s o n t h e a d v ic e o f t h e – s tr a ig h t a f t e r t h e la s t te s ti m o n y I a p p o in t e d a n in d e p e n d e n t c h a r te r e d a c c o u n ta n t t o c o m e in a n d o b v i o u s ly h e l p m e w it h t h e b o o k s b e c a u s e it w a s a l s o 10 e v i d e n t t h a t t h e 2 0 1 6 f i n a n c ia ls w e r e i n c o r r e c t fr o m t h e i n t e r r o g a ti o n a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e a n d w e s u b s e q u e n t ly e s t a b l is h e d t h a t t h e 2 0 1 5 r e c o r d s w e r e a ls o in c o r r e c t. S o t h e r e ’s a p r o c e s s o f r e c o n s tr u c ti o n t h a t ’s been happening and th e n in the mandate g iv e n to the in d e p e n d e n t a c c o u n t a n t t h a t w e ’v e a p p o i n t e d w a s a ls o to g u i d e m e o n t h e r ig h ts a n d o b l ig a ti o n s a n d a c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n t a n t i n b u s i n e s s a n d w h e t h e r m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f my r o l e is w it h in th e c o n t e x t o f w h a t A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r p u r p o r t e d a t th a t p o in t i n t i m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir m y p r o p o s a l i s , w i th y o u r le a v e t o ta k e th e b r e a k n o w a n d th e n w e w i ll m o v e t o M r L o u v e n te ll ’s 20 a ffi d a v i t a ft e r t h e b r e a k . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a t’s fi n e , w e ’ ll t a k e th e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e ’l l r e s u m e a t t w o o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n . REGISTRAR: A l l r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES Page 121 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir I in d ic a t e d b e f o r e t h e b r e a k t h a t w e w o u l d d e a li n g w i t h a n a ffi d a v i t o f M r L o w e n t h a l Yo u w i ll fi n d t h a t i n Ex h ib i t D D 1 0 a r ig h t a t t h e e n d a n d i t c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 238.274. CHAIRPERSON: I have got it thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d Mr N a t a s e n d o y o u h a v e i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m t h e r e y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 M r N a ta s e n t h i s w a s a n a ff i d a v i t th a t w a s f o r w a r d e d t o th e c o m m i s s i o n y e s te r d a y e v e n i n g , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p l e a s e e x p la in to u s w h o M r L o w e n t h a l is ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e i s a n i n d e p e n d e n t e x p e r t th a t I a p p o in t e d s tr a ig h t a f t e r th e te s ti m o n y t h a t I g a v e i n J u l y t o c o m e in a n d a s s is t u s w i t h fir s tly w i th t h e b o o k s , th e r e c o n s tr u c ti o n o f t h e b o o k s a s w e l l a s a d v is i n g m e i n te r m s o f m y o b li g a t io n s a s a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t i n business. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id h i s b r i e f i n c l u d e p r e p a r i n g t h i s a ff id a v i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h a s h e b e e n r e m u n e r a t e d f o r p r e p a r i n g t h is a ffi d a v i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n y o u j u s t c o n fi r m h e i n d ic a t e s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 th a t h e i s a n a d u l t m a le c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n t a n t. He does n o t in d i c a t e a n y l e g a l tr a i n in g , a r e y o u a w a r e o f h i m b e i n g a l a w y e r ? Page 122 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I a m n o t a w a r e t h a t h e is a la w y e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d c a n I j u s t c l a r if y h e t a l k s in t h is a ff id a v i t a b o u t a n u m b e r o f f a c ts r e l a te d t o w h a t h a s g o n e o n i n N e o S o l u ti o n s c a n w e a s s u m e th a t h e l e a r n t o f t h o s e f a c ts t h r o u g h you? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s t h r o u g h m e a n d o b v i o u s ly e n g a g in g w i th t h e t e a m n o w a s s i s ti n g w it h th e r e c o n s tr u c ti o n o f th e b o o k s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. If we go over the page to page 2 3 8 . 2 7 5 . Yo u w il l s e e a t th e t o p o f t h a t p a g e p a r a g r a p h 5 M r L o w e n t h a l 10 says: “ M r N a t a s e n i n f o r m e d m e t h a t i t h a d r e c e n tl y c o m e t o h is a t te n ti o n that the signed unaudited annual fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n t s o f N e o S o l u t i o n s t h a t h a d b e e n handed by s t a ff member Jerome Jones to the c o m m i s s io n w e r e o n c lo s e r in s p e c t io n m a t e r i a ll y in c o r r e c t o r i n c o m p l e t e a n d th a t h e a d v i s e d t h e c o m m i s s io n t h a t h e w o u ld a r r a n g e t o r e c o n c i l e t h e a c c o u n t in g r e c o r d s a n d r e c o m p i l e t h e u n a u d i te d a n n u a l fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n t s o f N e o S o l u ti o n s fo r t h e fi n a n c i a l p e r io d s 20 ending b u t n o t li m i t e d to the periods ending 2016 and 2017” Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u c o n fir m t h a t th a t is w h a t y o u in f o r m e d him? Page 123 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s w h a t I to l d h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n y o u s a y th e r e t h e n I a m g o i n g to d e a l w i t h w h a t y o u s a id t o h i m t h a t t h e a n n u a l f in a n c i a l s t a t e m e n ts h a d b e e n h a n d e d b y s t a ff m e m b e r J e r o m e J o n e s t o t h e c o m m i s s io n . W h y – w h y d i d y o u in d ic a t e t o h i m w h o p r e s e n t e d t h e m t o th e c o m m i s s i o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h in k w h e n w e g a v e h i m t h e b r ie f I e x p l a i n e d t h a t w h e n I w a s r e q u e s t e d t o p r o v id e t h e a c c o u n t in g s ta t e m e n ts t h a t I in f o r m e d J e r o m e a n d J e r o m e is t h e o n e w h o th e n s e n t t h e e m a i l across. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S e n t t h e e m a i l a c r o s s t o w h o m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I f i t w a s r e q u e s t e d b y th e o b v i o u s l y t o th e la w y e r s b u t i t is n o t th a t r e l e v a n t h e r e . H e j u s t b r o u g h t i t u p b e c a u s e t h a t w a s t h e b r i e f t h a t I g a v e h i m a t t h e ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I u n d e r s ta n d … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k i t is c o m p l e t e n e s s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ju s t – I w a n t t o … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u t t h e r e i s n o – t h e r e i s n o i n t e n t io n a s to w h y J e r o m e s p e c i f ic a l ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e y o u w o u l d t a k e r e s p o n s ib il it y n o d o u b t 20 f o r t h e fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts o f y o u r c o m p a n y t h a t w e r e p r o v i d e d t o t h e c o m m i s s io n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s b u t t h a t is a d i ff e r e n t c o n t e x t . W h a t I a m – w h a t h e is s a y i n g h e r e is n o t w h e th e r I a m t a k i n g r e s p o n s i b i li ty o r n o t i t w a s i n t h e b r i e f? H e h a s c a p t u r e d h is b r i e f i n to h i s s ta t e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I u n d e r s t a n d s o I a m j u s t c l a r if y i n g w i t h Page 124 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 you. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a I a m n o t – I a m n o t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s n o a tt e m p t h e r e t o d is t a n c e y o u r s e l f fr o m t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m n o t d i s ta n c in g m y s e l f fr o m m y r o l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y o n e a t a ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. Just to be clear the 2017 fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s t h a t w e r e p r o v id e d t o th e c o m m i s s i o n w e r e provided pursuant to a summons, correct? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t w a s a s u m m o n s t o y o u , c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u a r e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts t h a t w e r e t h e n f o r w a r d e d t o t h e c o m m i s s io n b y y o u r a tt o r n e y s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e o n e s t h a t w e r e s u b m i t t e d b y J e r o m e t o th e a tt o r – j a I a m n o t – a t th is p o in t i n ti m e a r e y o u tr y i n g to e s ta b lis h w h e t h e r I a m t r y i n g t o a b d ic a t e a n y r e s p o n s i b il it y a s t h e p e r s o n a s t h e d ir e c t o r o f t h e c o m p a n y ? T h e a n s w e r is n o I a m n o t tr y i n g t o . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M r N a t a s e n f u r t h e r d o w n o n p a g e 7 M r L o w e n th a l d e fi n e s m o n ie s . I j u s t w a n t u s to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h e m e a n s b y t h a t b e c a u s e h e tr a c k s i t t h r o u g h h is a ff id a v i t a n d th e d e f in i ti o n o f m o n i e s c o m e s a t p a r a g r a p h 7 . 3 , d o y o u s e e th a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : R ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h e s a y s p a r t o f h i s b r i e f a s I r e a d t h i s w a s Page 125 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t o in v e s t i g a t e h o w t h e R 9 . 9 m il li o n a n d t h e n h e d e fi n e s t h a t a s th e m o n i e s h a d fl o w e d in t o a n d o u t o f N e o S o l u ti o n s , is t h a t a c c u r a te ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n w e t a lk a b o u t m o n i e s I j u s t w a n t to g e t c la r i ty th a t y o u a n d I u n d e r s t a n d th is a ff id a v i t i n t h e s a m e w a y i t m e a n s t h e R 9 . 9 m il li o n t h a t t h i s c o m m is s i o n is i n t e r e s te d i n , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I n th is c o n te x t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u ld t h e n l ik e t o p r o g r e s s t h r o u g h t h e a ff i d a v i t r e a l ly to th e c o n c lu s i o n o f th e w o r k t h a t Mr 10 L o w e n t h a l d i d a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 2 3 8 . 2 7 8 . A n d th is s o r t o f c o n c l u s o r y p a r a g r a p h t h e r e is p a r a g r a p h 1 2 . B u t m a y b e y o u c a n a s s i s t u s b e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e in ju s t d e s c r i b i n g w h a t i t w a s th a t Mr L o w e n th a l d i d a n d w h a t i t is t h a t h e u n c o v e r e d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o h is o b je c tiv e a r o u n d a c c o u n ti n g f o r t h e m o n i e s o n t h e R 9 .9 m il li o n s p e c i f ic a l ly w a s t o e s t a b l is h t h a t w h a t w a s r e c e i v e d w a s tr a c e d t h r o u g h t h e b a n k s t a te m e n ts . As part of the r e c o n s tr u c ti o n the of records process h is brief with a c c o u n t in g p e r s o n n e l n o w w a s to e n s u r e t h a t i t w a s c o r r e c t ly p o s te d a s i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n to t h e s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t c a l l e d K o r e n e k a s o in t h e 20 r e c o n s tr u c te d b o o k s th a t h a v e b e e n n o w p r e p a r e d o r a r e in t h e p r o c e s s o f b e i n g p r e p a r e d t h e r e is n o w a s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t t h a t c o r r e c t ly r e fl e c ts h o w i t o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n a t th a t p o i n t i n t i m e . But the – in a c c o u n t in g f o r t h e m o n i e s h e tr a c e d th e m o n i e s c o m in g in a n d h e tr a c e d t h e m o n ie s g o i n g o u t o b v i o u s ly s a v e f o r t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 i s s u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d h e s p e c i fi c a ll y r a i s e t h e c o n c e r n a b o u t t h e Page 126 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 R300 000? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W h a t d o y o u m e a n b y c o n c e r n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s a i d h e – h e h a s a c c o u n t e d f o r e v e r y th in g except the R300 000. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e is u n a b l e t o v e r if y p a s t t h e p o i n t o f m y m a n a g e m e n t – m y r e p r e s e n ta t io n t h a t h e w a s p a i d t h e c a s h o b v io u s ly s o t h a t is t h e o n ly p o in t th a t h e w a s – o b v io u s ly th e j o u r n a l e n tr y a r o u n d t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 is t h e j o u r n a l e n t r y i n t h e s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t m o v i n g fr o m K o r e n e k a t h e a m o u n t w h ic h w o u ld h a v e b e e n R 2 . 9 o n t h e 10 4 J a n u a r y c o m e s d o w n b y R 3 0 0 0 0 0 s o a t y e a r e n d i t w a s R 2 .6 m i ll i o n a n d th a t R 3 0 0 0 0 0 is in m y s h a r e h o l d e r l o a n a c c o u n t o r d ir e c t o r ’s l o a n account. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So did he raise any concerns around the R300 000? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o t c o n c e r n . A ll h e s a id w a s h e c a n n o t v e r i fy m y s ta t e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Hm. Th e n i f w e p i c k it u p a t 1 2 t h is i s a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t i s h is c o n c l u d i n g p a r a g r a p h in r e l a t i o n t o t h e w o r k th a t was done. And he says there: 20 “ A c c o r d i n g ly I c o n fi r m t h a t I a m s a ti s fi e d th a t th e r e l e v a n t a c c o u n ti n g r e c o r d s o f N e o S o l u ti o n a s r e c o n s tr u c te d now more accurately r e fl e c t the m o n i e s f l o w t h r o u g h N e o S o l u ti o n s f o r t h e a ff e c t e d p e r i o d e n d e d Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d A p r i l 2 0 1 7 . ” Do you see that? Page 127 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I r e a d t h a t i t te n d s to s u g g e s t t h a t t h e y h a v e n o w b e e n r e c o n s t r u c t e d , is t h a t r ig h t ? MR VIVIEN N ATA S E N : Those s p e c i fic accounts have been r e c o n s tr u c te d . T h e r e a r e s ti ll o t h e r s u s p e n s e a c c o u n ts t h a t h a v e b e e n c r e a te d w h ic h w e b u s y r e s o lv i n g . S o u n ti l w e – it s i ts i n s u s p e n s e u n ti l w e i d e n ti f y t h e e x a c t tr a n s a c t i o n t h e n i t m o v e s e i th e r t o th e c o r r e c t in c o m e s t a t e m e n t i te m o r b a l a n c e s h e e t i t e m . B u t h e h a d to f o c u s s p e c i f ic a l ly o n t h e s e d u e t o u r g e n c y o f c o m i n g b a c k t o t h e c o m m is s i o n . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : What does he m ean when he says now more a c c u r a te ly r e fl e c t , d o y o u k n o w ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Yo u w il l h a v e to a s k h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. Yo u w e r e n o t … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e h a s b e e n h i r e d a s a n e x p e r t s o h e w il l h a v e t o c o m e a n d e x p la in t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u i n v o l v e d w i t h h i m i n t h e c o m p il a ti o n o f t h i s a ff id a v i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I s a w t h i s a ffi d a v it w h e n i t w a s a lr e a d y s u b m i tt e d t o t h e la w y e r s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e t h e – m a y b e t h e q u e s t io n s h o u ld b e w h a t is y o u r o w n u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t h e m e a n s t h e r e b e c a u s e w h a t e v e r h e w a s d o i n g h e w a s d o i n g fo r y o u r c o m p a n y a n d y o u n e e d e d to b e s a ti s f i e d t h a t h e h a s d o n e i t p r o p e r l y a n d o b v i o u s ly y o u n e e d t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t h e h a s p u t to g e th e r. Page 128 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C h a ir I m e a n I a m – a t th e r is k o f s p e c u la t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d id y o u n o t u n d e r s t a n d i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t – I m e a n i n a n a c c o u n ta n ts s p e a k I t h i n k t h a t is h o w t h e y w o u l d s a y i t is t h a t m o r e a c c u r a t e ly m e a n s i t i s a c c u r a t e b u t t h e r e m i g h t b e s o m e t h in g th e y m i g h t n o t k n o w t h a t is h o w th e y n o r m a l ly s e m i- d is c l a i m s o m e t h i n g b u t I c a n n o t s p e c u l a te o n h i s b e h a l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M o r e a c c u r a t e l y c a n I j u s t i n te r r o g a te w i t h y o u s u g g e s t t h a t t h e y w e r e p r e v i o u s ly a c c u r a te a n d n o w th e y a r e m o r e 10 a c c u r a te , d o y o u a g r e e w i th t h a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I d o n o t k n o w. I – to m e t h e y w e r e d e fi n i t e ly not accurate. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d I th i n k h e s t a r t s o ff b y s a y i n g t h e y w e r e n o t a c c u r a te . B e c a u s e t h e y w e r e n o t p o s t e d t o a s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o w h e n h e s a y s m o r e a c c u r a t e ly i t i f d e f i n i t e ly c o m i n g fr o m t h e [i n d is t in c t] th a t is w a s n o t a c c u r a te i n t h e fir s t p l a c e . Ye s t h e b a n k s t a te m e n ts a r e a c c u r a te b e c a u s e th e y r e fl e c t t h a t t h e 20 m o n e y h a s f lo w e d b u t a n y t h i n g p a s t th a t o n t h e j o u r n a lis i n g w a s n o t a c c u r a te . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . S o i f y o u w e r e g iv i n g y o u r c o n c l u d i n g r e m a r k s h e r e c a n I ta k e it t h a t y o u w o u l d s a y th e p r e v i o u s m a n n e r i n w h ic h th e y w e r e c a p t u r e d w a s n o t a c c u r a t e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e a lr e a d y t e s t if ie d t o s a y t h a t. Page 129 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d n o w th e y a r e n o w a c c u r a te ly r e fl e c t e d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I n th e c u r r e n t v e r s i o n s y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d s o th e c o m m i s s i o n h a s n o t y e t r e c e i v e d th e s e r e c o n s tr u c te d fi n a n c i a l s h a s it ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o a s I s a i d t h e r e a r e s t il l s e v e r a l s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t i t e m s . W e a r e h a v i n g t o g o b a c k t o s u p p l ie r s fr o m 3 – 4 y e a r s a g o t o o b t a i n in v o ic e s s o t h a t w e c a n c o r r e c tl y p o s t t h e s e tr a n s a c t i o n s . S o th e r e i s q u i t e a lo n g p r o c e s s u n d e r w a y t o g e t t h a t r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n y o u j u s t h e l p m e i s i t u s u a l ly – i s h e 10 e n g a g e d o n a c o m p i la t io n b a s is ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , n o , n o . W e w i l l h a v e a s e p a r a t e a c c o u n t in g t e a m t h a t w il l b e a p p o i n t e d f o r t h e c o m p il a ti o n . H e is a p p o i n t e d o n a f a c tu a l f in d i n g s b a s is w i t h t h e s p e c i fi c m a n d a t e t o a d d r e s s th e s e is s u e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w a s h e s p e c if i c a l ly a s k e d t o s a t is fy h i m s e l f a s t o th e a c c u r a c y o f t h e tr e a t m e n t th a t i s n o w b e e n g iv e n to t h e monies? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s a s p a r t o f th is s c o p e y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n li k e to g o t o h o w h e 20 h a s t r e a t e d it in t h e r e c o n s tr u c t e d f in a n c ia ls a n d y o u w il l f i n d t h a t s t a r ti n g t o b e d e s c r i b e d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 o n t h a t p a g e 2 7 8 . J u s t r e m i n d u s p r e v i o u s l y h o w w a s it a c c o u n te d fo r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s p o s t e d t o m y lo a n a c c o u n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u a n d h e h a v e a g r e e d th a t w a s in c o r r e c t ? Page 130 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s h e fr o m th e s t a r t h a d s a i d t h is [ i n d is ti n c t ] s h o u l d h a v e b e e n in t h e s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l h e s a y s h e r e t h e w a y t h a t h e h a s tr e a t e d it i f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o 2 3 8 . 2 7 9 a t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 i t is r e a l ly h i s concluding paragraph again as I have it. He says “ A c c o r d i n g ly I in s t r u c t e d t h e a c c o u n t in g s t a ff o f N e o S o lu t io n s t o r e fl e c t m o n ie s th a t i s th e o n e s w e a r e in t e r e s te d i n a s f u n d s h e l d in a n i n t e r e s t fr e e l o a n a c c o u n t f r o m Va n W y k o r h is n o m in e e K o r e n e k a a n d 10 t o b e r e c o r d e d a s a l ia b ili t y a n d a l o a n l e d g e r account.” Do you see that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d o y o u a n d h e a g r e e t h a t t h a t i s t h e c o r r e c t tr e a t m e n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n i f N e o S o l u ti o n s h a d g o t a l o a n fr o m a b a n k a n d w o u l d b e v e r y fo r t u n a t e if i t w a s a b l e t o a c h i e v e t h e lo a n t h a t I a m g o i n g t o d e s c r ib e a n in t e r e s t f r e e l o a n fr o m a b a n k th a t 20 was payable on demand. W o u l d it r e c e i v e t h e s a m e a c c o u n ti n g tr e a t m e n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : R e p e a t th e q u e s ti o n / A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f N e o S o l u ti o n s w e n t t o a v e r y k i n d b a n k a n d r e c e i v e d a n i n t e r e s t fr e e l o a n r e p a y a b l e o n d e m a n d w o u l d i t a ls o b e r e c o r d e d a s a l ia b i li t y i n a l o a n l e d g e r a c c o u n t i n i ts fi n a n c i a l s ? Page 131 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : D e f i n i t e ly n o t I d o n o t k n o w i f a b a n k w il l g iv e y o u a n i n t e r e s t fr e e l o a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o i n d e e d . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : In th e fir s t p l a c e s o i t is v e r y h y p o t h e t ic a l w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o i n d e e d l e t u s w o r k w i t h th e h y p o t h e tic a l . I f N e o S o l u t i o n s g o t a n i n te r e s t fr e e l o a n fr o m a b a n k r e p a y a b l e o n d e m a n d w o u ld i t b e r e fl e c t e d i n t h e a c c o u n ti n g r e c o r d s a s a li a b il i ty in t h e lo a n l e d g e r a c c o u n t ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : It – w e ll th e r e is n o s u c h s i t u a t i o n . A b a n k a n y f o r m a l i n s ti t u ti o n w h o s e r e v e n u e w o u l d b e b a s e d o n l e n d i n g m o n e y w o u ld a l w a y s c h a r g e i n t e r e s t. I f s a y l e t u s a n o th e r i n s ti t u ti o n . If I w e n t a n d b o r r o w e d t h e m o n e y fr o m a n y o t h e r p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a n th e b a n k l e t u s s a y t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S u p e r. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Then that would work that yes I would then r e fl e c t i t a s a li a b i li ty in t h e s a m e w a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s t h i n k a n o th e r t h ir d p a r ty t h e n I c a n s e e 20 y o u r d i ffi c u l ty w i t h i t b e i n g a b a n k . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a n o t h e r t h ir d p a r ty l o a n s m o n e y to N e o S o lu t io n s i n t e r e s t fr e e r e p a y a b l e o n d e m a n d y o u w o u ld r e f l e c t i t a s a li a b il i ty i n th e l o a n le d g e r a c c o u n t , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . Page 132 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . W e h a v e a lr e a d y tr a v e r s e d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t th e m o n i e s t h a t w e r e r e c e i v e d fr o m K o r e n e k a w e r e n o t r in g fe n c e d , c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e y w e r e u s e d to f u n d th e c a s h f lo w o f t h e b u s i n e s s i n th e p e r i o d b e t w e e n N o v e m b e r a n d F e b r u a r y, c o r r e c t / A n d t h e y w e r e u s e d t o fu n d t h e c a s h fl o w o f th e b u s i n e s s i n t h e p e r i o d b e t w e e n N o v e m b e r a n d F e b r u a r y, c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 10 N o I d id n o t s a y t h a t I s a i d t h e y w e r e in o u r o p e r a ti o n b a n k a c c o u n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s s o r r y y o u d i d h a v e a n e n g a g e m e n t w i t h th e C h a ir a b o u t th a t . A s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u a g r e e d t h a t i t w a s u s e d in t h e o p e r a ti o n s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f N e o S o l u t i o n s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u t n o t u s e d t o f u n d m y c a s h fl o w a s i f t h e r e w a s a n i n t e n t f o r i t t o b e u s e d to f u n d m y c a s h fl o w. T h a t w a s n o t a a d m i s s i o n I m a d e . T h e a d m is s i o n w a s i t w a s s it t i n g in o u r o p e r a t io n a l a c c o u n t s o f th e b u s i n e s s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d u s e d . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t t h a t p o i n t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e b u s i n e s s b e t w e e n November 2015 and the end of February 2016, correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t s u g g e s ts to m e t h a t i t is q u it e Page 133 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a c c u r a te ly a l o a n t h e n to N e o S o lu t io n s is it n o t M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o n o t a t a l l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h y is i t b e i n g r e fl e c t e d a s a li a b il i ty in t h e lo a n l e d g e r a c c o u n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : It i s r e fl e c t e d a s a li a b i li ty b e c a u s e w h e r e e ls e w o u ld y o u p o s t t h a t s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t? I t is a s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t t h a t is in c r e d i t t h e r e f o r e – a n d l ik e I s a i d fr o m th e s ta r t n o m a t te r w h a t h a p p e n e d I w o u l d o w e Br ia n th a t m o n e y b a c k i f h e e v e r c a m e t o d e m a n d i t. 10 S o t h e r e f o r e it is i n t h e r i g h t p l a c e b u t i t is – t o u s e t h e w o r d l o a n a s if h e l e n t u s t h e m o n e y is n o t c o r r e c t t o m a k e th a t s t a te m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s m o n i e s t h a t w a s p l a c e d i n th e a c c o u n t i n g tr e a t m e n t o f i t w a s t o c r e a t e a s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t c a l le d K o r e n e k a a n d in t h e fi n a l v e r s i o n , t h e a c c u r a te v e r s i o n o f th e tr ia l b a l a n c e a n d th e fi n a n c i a l s t h a t w e r e b e i n g p r o d u c e d i t w il l s i t a s a l ia b il it y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u t to c a ll i t a l o a n in t h e c o n te x t t h a t h e l e n t u s th e m o n e y a s a lo a n is n o t c o r r e c t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w d o e s i t d i ff e r fr o m th e h y p o t h e t ic a l t h a t w e e n g a g e d in a m o m e n t a g o ? C a n I j u s t e x p l a in w h a t I m e a n b y th a t ? W e p o s t u l a te d a n o t h e r t h ir d p a r ty c o m p a n y t h a t l e n t N e o S o lu t io n s a n a m o u n t o f m o n e y i n te r e s t fr e e r e p a y a b l e o n d e m a n d t h a t w a s u s e d i n t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e b u s in e s s w o u l d t h a t b e a l o a n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : If y o u e n g a g e d o n i t b e i n g a l o a n i n t h e f ir s t Page 134 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 p l a c e a n d th e m o n e y w a s le n t i n t h e fir s t p la c e t h e n I a g r e e w it h y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u t th is m o n e y w a s n o t in o u r b o o k s in th a t w a y. T h i s w a s i n a s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t a n d t h e c o r r e c t p l a c e m e n t o f th is in th e s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t – o f th e s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t i n o u r f in a n c i a ls w i ll b e s i t ti n g a s a l ia b il it y. CHAIRPERSON: S o i s y o u r p o i n t t h is th a t y o u w o u ld a c c e p t i t a s a lo a n i f w h e n i t c a m e i t c a m e o n th e b a s is t h a t it w a s a l o a n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . C o r r e c t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: I f i t d i d n o t c o m e o n t h a t b a s is t h e n y o u w o u l d n o t take it as a loan? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e e x a c t w o r d i n g C h a ir o n o u r tr i a l b a l a n c e r ig h t n o w i s i t is c a ll e d s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t K o r e n e k a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o I a m t r y i n g t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c t ly. T h e fa c t th a t y o u d o n o t t a k e i t a s a l o a n i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e i t d i d n o t c o m e t o y o u a s a l o a n i n th e fir s t p l a c e d o e s n o t – d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t i t is n o t a l i a b il i ty ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n y o u r p a r t t o w a r d s t h e p e r s o n w h o b r o u g h t i t. 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a C h a ir I t h i n k o u r le a r n e d f r i e n d is i m p l y i n g t h a t a l o a n a n d a li a b i li ty a r e t h e s a m e t h i n g . o b li g a ti o n to r e p a y s o m e b o d y. R i g h t a li a b i li ty is a n A loan is where you have borrowed m o n e y. A n d w e h a v e n o t b o r r o w e d th e m o n e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h a d I u n d e r s t o o d y o u c o r r e c t ly ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t y e s . Page 135 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a ta s e n w h e n y o u t a k e m o n e y fr o m a n o t h e r p e r s o n t o – w h e n y o u – le t m e c l e a r. W h e n a c o m p a n y l ik e N e o S o lu t io n s t a k e s m o n e y fr o m a n o t h e r e n t i ty t o u s e i n i ts b u s in e s s w h ic h is r e p a y a b l e o n d e m a n d a n d w h i c h a t tr a c ts n o i n te r e s t is t h a t n o t a lo a n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e d i d n o t t a k e t h e m o n e y to u s e i n o u r business. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s a m a t t e r o f f a c t y o u d id u s e i t th o u g h ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s n o t … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : C h a ir s o r r y. C o u l d I p le a s e m a y b e a d d s o m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : S o m e c l a r i t y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja come forward. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a n k y o u . I t h i n k m y le a r n e d c o ll e a g u e fr o m t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s le g a l te a m is c o n f u s i n g t h e a c c o u n t in g p r i n c i p le s h e r e . A s M r N a ta s e n a n d y o u r s e l f h a v e s a i d o k a y r e a l ly w h a t i t b o il s d o w n t o i s t h e i n te n ti o n a n d t h e n a tu r e o f th e m o n i e s t h a t w e r e 20 p r o v i d e d to N e o S o l u ti o n s . I f o n e l o o k s a t M r Va n W y k ’s in t e n t i o n i n m a k i n g t h e p a y m e n t a l b e i t c h a n n e ll e d t h r o u g h K o r e n e k a t h e i n te n ti o n w a s th e m o n i e s b e i n v e s t e d f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f a f a r m i n g v e n t u r e . I t w a s n o t a l o a n in t h e s tr ic t s e n s e t h a t m y l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e is r e f e r r i n g t o t h a t w o u l d a t tr a c t i n t e r e s t in t h e o r d i n a r y c o u r s e . O k a y. E a r l i e r i n t h e te s ti m o n y th is m o r n i n g i t b e c a m e c l e a r t o e v e r y o n e th a t m y l e a r n e d Page 136 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 colleague was confusing the aspect of loan account and banking account. S h e a s k e d th e q u e s t i o n , w h a t a c c o u n t w i th t h e b a n k is th a t p a r t ic u l a r l o a n a c c o u n t ? A l o a n a c c o u n t is a li a b il i ty c r e a t e d in th e c o m p a n y ’s b o o k s o f a c c o u n t in d ic a t i n g i ts i n d e b te d n e s s t o a t h ir d p a r t y. T h a t th ir d p a r t y c o u l d b e a d ir e c t o r, a s h a r e h o l d e r o r a b a n k . S o th e n a t u r e o f t h e m o n i e s h e r e is a l l … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o I … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I m p o r t a n t t h e n I t h i n k M r H o f m e y r is c o n fu s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k s o f a r I c e r ta i n ly u n d e r s t a n d w h a t M r N a t a s e n 10 is s a y i n g . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r s h e m ig h t s ti ll h a v e s o m e q u e s ti o n b u t I d o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t M r N a t a s e n s a y s . T h e d is t in c ti o n t h a t h e is p u tt i n g f o r w a r d b u t I w il l h e a r – w e w il l h e a r i f M s H o f m e y r. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S t i ll h a s s o m e q u e s ti o n s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M r N a ta s e n d i d y o u d is c u s s a t a l l w i t h M r Va n W y k t h a t y o u w o u ld u s e th e f u n d s t h a t h e w a s g iv in g y o u i n 20 t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e b u s in e s s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e a lr e a d y t e s t if i e d o n t h e b a s is t h a t t h e f u n d s w e r e n e v e r i n t e n d e d t o b e w i t h u s f o r a n y l o n g p e r i o d o f t i m e . It w a s g o i n g t o g o s tr a i g h t i n to t h e f a r m in g v e n t u r e . T h e f a c t th a t it n e v e r m a t e r i a lis e d o n ti m e t h e n g a v e r is e to a s i tu a ti o n i t w a s k e p t i n t h e o p e r a ti o n s . A n d I h a v e a lr e a d y s a i d s e v e r a l t i m e s th a t s h o u l d h e h a v e Page 137 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a p p r o a c h e d u s t o s a y r e tu r n th e m o n e y o r t h e f a r m i n g v e n t u r e w o u l d h a v e t u r n e d o n h is fu n d s w o u l d h a v e th e n b e e n d e p l o y e d . So the p o r t i o n s t h a t h e u ti lis e d b a c k f o r h i ms e lf w o u ld h a v e h a d to c o m e b a c k in t o t h e fa r m i n g o p e r a ti o n a s w e l l a s a n y m o n i e s w e w o u l d h a v e b e e n s i tt i n g w i th a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e . S o I t h in k a g a i n t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n i n te n ti o n o r a d is c u s s i o n th a t w e w o u l d u til is e t h e s e f u n d s i n o u r o p e r a ti o n . It w a s a n u n i n t e n d e d c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h e fa c t t h a t i t d i d n o t m o v e i n a n d o u t a s s o o n a s i t w a s s u p p o s e d to . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d o y o u m e a n b y u n in t e n d e d ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e fa c t th a t i t s a t t h e r e th a t l o n g m e a n t t h a t i t s t a y e d i n o u r b o o k s t h a t l o n g . S o i t w o u l d h a v e m o v e d in a n d o u t e v e n b e f o r e o u r f in a n c ia l y e a r e n d h a d t h e f a r m i n g o p e r a t io n t u r n e d o n i n t h e ti m e li n e s th a t w e w e r e w o r k in g to . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n y o u r p r e v i o u s t e s ti m o n y w a s t h a t t h a t fa r m in g v e n t u r e w a s o n a lo n g t e r m t r a j e c t o r y d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I r e c a ll my t e s ti m o n y a s t h e i n t e n t io n w a s t h a t w e w o u ld g e t i t g o i n g q u i c k l y a n d th e n w e r e a lis e d t h a t th e o w n e r w a s h a g g l in g o v e r p r ic e s . T h e r e w a s a f a r m o r e d e ta il e d i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t e n d e d u p h a p p e n i n g . B u t t h e i n i t ia l in v e s t ig a ti o n w a s i t i t w a s g o i n g to 20 h a p p e n v e r y q u i c k l y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n i t d id n o t h a p p e n q u ic k ly d i d y o u t h e n e n g a g e w it h h i m a n d e x p l a in t o h i m t h a t i t w a s b e i n g u s e d i n th e o p e r a ti o n s o f N e o S o l u t i o n s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o w e d i d n o t t h a t i t w a s b e in g i n th e o p e r a ti o n no. Page 138 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. A n d y o u r e v i d e n c e th e n is t h a t t h e r e w a s n o l o a n a g r e e m e n t e v e r w i th M r Va n W y k , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o b e c a u s e a s I s a i d it w a s g o i n g t o b e p u t to t h e f a r m in g v e n tu r e a s s o o n a s p o s s i b le . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t d i d n o t e v e r h a p p e n , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t – w e ll b y t h e n h e h a d w i t h d r a w n a l l h is money any way by the time we got to the farming venture closure of the project. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 I f w e g o o v e r th e p a g e t o p a g e 2 3 8 . 2 8 0 . Mr N a t a s e n t h e r e is a h e a d i n g t h e r e c a l le d B e n e fi t D e r iv e d . B e fo r e I g e t t h e b e n e f it o f y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t M r L o w e n th a l is s a y i n g h e r e w e w o u l d j u s t lik e t o p i c k u p o n a n a s p e c t th a t is r e le v a n t t o t h e q u e s t io n o f b e n e fi t f r o m y o u r t e s ti m o n y t h is m o r n i n g . As I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r t e s ti m o n y y o u m a d e i t c l e a r t h a t e v e n t h o u g h y o u d i d n o t h a v e t h e R 2 . 6 m il li o n a v a il a b l e a t th e e n d o f F e b r u a r y s i tt i n g a s c a s h i n th e N e o S o lu t io n s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Av a i l a b le f u n d s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B a n k a c c o u n t s h a d th e r e b e e n a c a ll f o r i t y o u w o u ld h a v e t a k e n s te p s t o g e t o t h e r f a c il i ti e s , is t h a t a c c u r a t e ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : To e x te n d o u r f a c i li ti e s y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. T h o s e f a c i li t ie s w o u l d n o t c o m e f r e e w o u ld t h e y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e y w o u l d c o m e a t a c o s t c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . As I h a v e it f r o m y o u r N e d b a n k f a c il i ty a g r e e m e n t th e r e is a t l e a s t a n a c tiv a t io n f e e o f R 5 0 0 0 0 , d o y o u r e c a l l Page 139 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t is o n th e o r ig in a l a g r e e m e n t b u t n o t fo r f u r th e r e x t e n s i o n s t h e y w o u ld n o t – th e y d o n o t c h a r g e i t o n e x t e n s i o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e w o u ld b e s o m e c o s t a s s o c i a te d w i t h t h e extension though? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l a t l e a s t a n i n t e r e s t c o s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . S o t h a t t h e f a c t t h a t y o u d i d n o t h a v e t o a c q u ir e t h o s e a d d i t io n a l f a c il i ti e s w a s a b e n e fi t i n t h e h a n d s o f N e o S o lu t io n s , w a s i t n o t ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e – I t h i n k w h e n w e d e a l w i th t h i s h e r e w e c o m e u p w i th t h e d i s c u s s i o n a r o u n d b e n e f it d e r iv e d C h a ir. I t h i n k p o s t m y e a r li e r te s ti m o n y w e o b v io u s ly a p p l i e d o u r m i n d s t o th is a n d fr o m t h e a d v ic e o f M r L o w e n th a l a n d fr o m a d is c u s s i o n w i t h m y o w n l e g a l t e a m a n d f r o m t h e h is t o r y o f w h a t w e h a v e s e e n o t h e r e n t it i e s th a t fi n d o u t l a te r th a t t h e y w e r e u n k n o w i n g ly i n v o l v e d in o b v io u s ly s ta t e f u n d s t h a t h a v e f l o w e d t h r o u g h is th e n w e c a m e u p w i t h le t u s t e n d e r. If t h e r e h a s b e e n a n u n i n t e n d e d b e n e fi t t h a t h a s b e e n d e r iv e d n o w t h r o u g h t h e i n t e r e s t s a v i n g o r i n t e r m s o f t h e f a c il it i e s c o s ts o r in a p o s i ti v e b a la n c e i f t h e fa c i li ty m o v e d to a p o s it iv e b a l a n c e th e n w e 20 w o u ld b e t e n d e r in g t h a t w e w il l o ffe r t o p a y t h e a ffe c t e d in s t i tu t io n t h e in t e r e s t c o m p o n e n t b a c k . A n d t h a t is t h e b e n e fi t – t h a t is t h e b a s is o f t h is c l a u s e in h i s a ff id a v i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . I d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d Mr L o w e n t h a l t o b e p o s tu la t in g th e n e e d fo r f u r th e r fa c i li ti e s to h a v e b e e n o b ta in e d , d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d h i m t o b e d e a li n g w i t h f u r th e r f a c il i ti e s i n t h e s e Page 140 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 paragraphs? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , n o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h a t i s w h y I w a s a s k i n g b e f o r e w e g o t t o w h a t h e h a d d e r i v e d a s t h e b e n e fi t . A q u e s ti o n a b o u t i f y o u h a d h a d to g e t f u r t h e r f a c il it i e s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u a c c e p t e d th a t th a t w o u ld c o m e a t a c o s t t o N e o S o l u t i o n s , c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u r s a v in g o f t h a t c o s t w a s a n a d d i ti o n a l b e n e fi t , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Let us now go to what Mr Lowenthal did do. E x p l a i n t o u s w h a t b e n e f it h e c o n c l u d e d w a s r e c e iv e d b y N e o S o lu t io n s ? MR VIVIEN N ATA S E N : So he has [i n d is t in c t] an amount of R 2 1 7 4 9 4 .0 0 a s t h e in t e r e s t s a v i n g b y u s o n th e – o n t h e o v e r d r a f t f a c i li t ie s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d a s I h a v e it y o u h a v e t e n d e r e d t o r e t u r n t h a t to t h e a p p r o p r ia t e b e n e f ic ia l o w n e r s h o u l d t h a t e v e r b e r e q u ir e d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u ld th a t b e M r Va n W y k o r w o u l d t h a t b e Koreneka? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w o u ld b e th e e ff e c t e d s t a t e e n ti t y t h a t l o s t t h e s e f u n d s . Fr o m m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g . Page 141 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 9 o n th a t p a g e 2 3 8 . 2 8 0 Mr N a t a s e n Mr L o w e n t h a l t h e r e s a y s : “ O w in g t o th e f a c t th a t n e i th e r M r N a t a s e n n o r N e o S o lu t io n s m a d e s p e c i fi c u s e o f t h e m o n i e s . ” T h e n h e g o e s o n to s a y : “ T h e r e w a s n o i n te n t t o b e n e f it e i t h e r M r N a t a s e n o r N e o S o l u t i o n s a s t h e t o t a l m o n ie s w e r e r e c e iv e d b y N e o S o l u ti o n s w e r e p a i d o u t b y N e o S o l u t io n s w it h in a f e w m o n t h s o f r e c e i p t. ” 10 C a n I j u s t a s k w h e r e d o e s h e g e t t h o s e fa c ts fr o m o w i n g t o t h e f a c t t h a t n e i th e r M r N a t a s e n n o r N e o S o l u ti o n m a d e s p e c i f ic u s e o f th e m o n i e s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t is fr o m h i s – o b v i o u s ly fr o m o u r r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a n d h is in t e r r o g a t io n o f t h e a c c o u n ti n g t e a m n o w t h a t is t h e r e n o w. B u t y o u w il l h a v e t o a s k h i m t h is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u – y o u c a n n o t h e lp u s o n w h y h e s a y s t h e r e t h a t N e o S o l u ti o n s m a d e n o s p e c i fi c u s e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Yo u w il l h a v e to a s k h i m t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I u n d e r s to o d y o u t o s a y h e w o u l d h a v e g o t t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n f r o m y o u o r y o u r a c c o u n ti n g t e a m , c o r r e c t ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e g a v e h i m t h e f a c ts a s w e s a w i t a n d h e w a s appointed to then evaluate those facts and make a obviously produce t h is r e p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So – because he would not know those facts, w o u ld h e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l h e w a s a p p o i n te d t o a n in v e s ti g a t io n . S o Page 142 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h r o u g h t h a t h e w o u l d g a i n w h a te v e r f a c ts h e c o u l d a n d t h e n d r a w in f e r e n c e s fr o m t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d a t 2 0 h e g o e s o n a n d h e s a y s : “ H o w e v e r t h e r e w a s a c o n s e q u e n t ia l u n in t e n d e d b e n e fi t t h a t a c c r u e d t o N e o S o l u ti o n s d u e t o th e f a c t th a t t h e m o n i e s w h i l e in t h e o v e r d r a w n b a n k a c c o u n ts o f N e o S o lu t io n s r e d u c e d t h e o v e r d r a f t a m o u n t s o w i n g b y N e o S o l u ti o n s t o th e b a n k s . there. I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d t h e p l u r a l W h y is h e t a l k i n g a b o u t o v e r d r a w n b a n k a c c o u n ts , o v e r d r a f t a m o u n ts a n d b a n k s ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I th i n k y o u w il l h a v e t o a s k h i m t h o s e w o r d in g . H e a g a i n p r o d u c e d th e r e p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I a m ju s t – h e is w o r k i n g o n t h e i n f o r m a ti o n y o u g iv e h i m a b o u t y o u r c o m p a n y, c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d w h a t e v e r f a c ts h e c o u l d g a i n fr o m th e books and records that he was able to detect. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e m u s t n o t o r o n th e b a c k o f y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y r e a d th is to s u g g e s t th a t t h e r e w e r e o th e r o v e r d r a f t f a c i li t ie s r e le v a n t b e c a u s e w e h a v e c o n f i r me d a lr e a d y t h e r e w a s o n ly o n e b a n k w i t h a n o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a s o y o u w il l h a v e to a s k h i m th is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I a m a s k i n g a f a c t u a l q u e s ti o n n o w. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e r e w e r e n o – a s I s a i d a t t h e s t a r t o f to d a y I w a s n o t s u r e w h e n th e S t a n d a r d B a n k f a c il i ti e s w e r e r e i n s t a te d . So y o u – o b v i o u s ly fr o m t h e r e c o r d s y o u h a v e y o u s a y i n g i t w a s n o t a t th a t p o i n t in ti m e . T h e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n r e i n s t a t e d d u r in g M a r c h a n d s o m e Page 143 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 o f t h e p a y m e n ts h a p p e n e d d u r in g th e p e r i o d o f M a r c h o f t h e n e x t y e a r o r th e n e x t f i n a n c ia l y e a r s o th e r e fo r e t h a t m i g h t b e b u t I c a n n o t s p e c u l a te . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. A n d w h y d o e s h e c a ll t h e m a n u n i n t e n d e d b e n e f i t? D i d y o u g iv e h i m th a t w o r d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o th a t is fr o m h i s r e p o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w d o e s h e m a k e a c o n c lu s i o n a b o u t w h a t t h e in t e n t io n w a s b e h i n d t h e b e n e f it w i t h o u t e n g a g in g y o u a b o u t i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 10 Fr o m m y e x p la n a t io n s t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n in t e n t io n f o r u s t o u ti li s e th e f u n d s f o r o u r b u s i n e s s t h e r e w a s n e v e r a lo a n s o b y i n fe r e n c e h e w o u l d a s s u m e t h e n i t is u n in t e n d e d . If w e n e v e r in t e n d e d i t – th e i n te n d e d u s e o f th e fu n d s w a s t o m o v e to t h e f a r m in g v e n tu r e . S o a n y t h i n g d i ffe r e n t to t h a t w a s n o t w h a t th e i n t e n t io n w a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . Yo u c o n v e y e d t h a t i n fo r m a ti o n t o him? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I e x p l a i n e d t h e t r a n s a c ti o n h is t o r y to h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. If we then go over the page to 2 3 8 . 2 8 1 . I w o u ld l ik e t o p i c k u p t h e t o p ic o f u n a u d i te d a n n u a l fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts o f N e o S o lu t io n s . 20 A n d I w o u ld l ik e to p ic k i t u p a t paragraph 24 there if we may because Mr Lowenthal as I read this p a r a g r a p h m a k e s s o m e c o m m e n ts a b o u t w h e t h e r y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts r e s u l te d i n t h i n g s b e c o m i n g b in d i n g a n d e n f o r c e a b l e a g a in s t N e o S o l u t io n s . D id y o u a s k h i m p a r ti c u la r ly t o c o m m e n t o n t h is a s p e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a s k e d h i m t o l o o k a t o u r o b li g a t i o n s o r m y Page 144 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 o b li g a ti o n s i n t e r m s o f t h e f a c t t h a t th e r e w e r e s i g n e d d o c u m e n ts th a t w e r e o u t t h e r e t h a t w e r e in a c c u r a t e . A n d h e w a s t h e n r e q u ir e d t o r e s p o n d to t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o t h e s e I a m a s s u m i n g is i n r e s p o n s e t o t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. D o y o u a c c e p t th a t w h e t h e r s o m e t h i n g is b i n d i n g o r e n f o r c e a b l e o r n o t is a le g a l q u e s t io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Fr o m a n a c c o u n t in g p e r s p e c tiv e a s a n d h e is – fr o m m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t M r L o w e n t h a l h a s d o n e h is b r i e f w a s t o 10 lo o k a t a s w e l l a p p a r e n t ly fr o m w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d h e d o e s t e s t if y a l o t o n m a t te r s li k e t h is a n d fr o m t h a t b a s i s h e lo o k e d a t it n o t j u s t p u r e ly fr o m a n a c c o u n ti n g b u t a n o b l i g a t io n fr o m a n a c c o u n ti n g p e r s p e c ti v e i n t e r m s o f th e a c t n o t a s a l a w y e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e n … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u t a g a i n y o u w i ll h a v e t o c a l l h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n h e s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 4 m a y b e y o u c a n ju s t r e a d p a r a g r a p h 2 4 f o r u s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o h e s ta t e s h e r e t h a t : “ N e o S o lu t io n s is n o t s ta t u to r i ly r e q u ir e d t o h a v e 20 a u d it e d f i n a n c ia l s ta t e m e n ts a n d Mr - M r N a t a s e n ’s s ig n a tu r e e l e c tr o n ic o r h a n d w r i t te n o n t h e c o m p i le d u n a u d i t e d a n n u a l fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n ts d o e s n o t i n m y o p i n i o n r e s u l t i n s a m e b e c o m i n g b in d i n g o r enforceable Mr Natasen a g a in s t u n le s s Neo S o l u ti o n s s p e c i fic a lly Page 145 of 236 having and/or being 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 c o m p il e d f o r r e l i a n c e u p o n b y a s t a t e d k n o w n t h ir d p a r t y f o r a p a r t ic u l a r n e e d . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr N a t a s e n e a r l ie r i n y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y w e tr a v e r s e d t h e r e q u ir e m e n t o f a u d it e d f i n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts in y o u r N e d b a n k f a c il i ty a g r e e m e n t . D o y o u r e c a l l th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u m a k e t h a t k n o w n to M r L o w e n t h a l b e f o r e h e d e p o s e d t o t h is a ff i d a v i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I a m n o t s u r e i f h e h a s a c c e s s t o t h e a g r e e m e n t 10 with Nedbank at that point in time. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : My q u e s t i o n w a s d id y o u m a k e i t - b r i n g i t … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To h is a t te n ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A s I s t a t e d i n my t e s ti m o n y I w a s o n ly r e m i n d e d o f i t n o w w h e n o b v i o u s ly … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A d a y o r s o a g o … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n th e C o m m i s s io n p r o v i d e d y o u w i t h t h a t … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Agreement? S o h i s c o n c lu s i o n h e r e a s I u n d e r s t a n d it is th a t : “ T h e r e i s n o o b li g a t i o n f o r a s lo n g a s n o t h ir d p a r ty c r e d i t o r is b e in g a s k e d to p la c e r e li a n c e o n t h e fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s . ” D o y o u r e a d i t in t h e s a m e w a y ? Page 146 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d in s o f a r a s w e h a v e n o w c o n fir m e d b e c a u s e y o u r m e m o r y w a s r e fr e s h e d tw o d a y s a g o th a t t h e r e w a s a l e g a l o b li g a ti o n to p r o v i d e t h o s e a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts . I a s s u m e y o u w o u ld t h e n d i ff e r fr o m th e c o n c l u s i o n h e d r a w s h e r e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Yo u c a n a s k h i m th a t b u t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a ta s e n t h e q u e s ti o n w a s d o y o u d i ff e r fr o m t h e c o n c lu s i o n h e d r a w s h e r e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 10 I f - if t h e o b li g a ti o n t o r e p o r t t o N e d b a n k w a s made aware to him then I - I agree. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: I a m n o t s u r e w h a t t h e v a l u e o f h i s o p i n i o n is in paragraph 24. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H e i s n o t a la w y e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n s o f a r - C h a ir a n d t h e o n ly r e a s o n fo r e x p l o r in g i t i f I m a y i s in s o f a r a s t h e r e is a n y r e s p e c t i n w h i c h a n 20 e x p e r t a c c o u n t a n t mi g h t b e a b le t o s h e d l i g h t o n in a c c o u n t i n g p r a c ti c e w h a t t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts o f a u d i te d fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s a r e . T h a t is t h e o n ly r e a s o n f o r p r o b i n g i t fu r t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e h a v e M r N a t a s e n ’s e v id e n c e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 147 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : On that. M r N a t a s e n t h e n e x t to p ic o n t h a t p a g e is “ C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n ta n t i n B u s i n e s s ” a n d w e h a v e tr a v e r s e d t h a t a lr e a d y i n y o u r e v i d e n c e . I - w h a t d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d Mr L o w e n t h a l t o s a y a b o u t t h e p o s i t io n o f a C h a r te r e d Ac c o u n t a n t i n B u s in e s s a n d i ts a p p lic a ti o n t o y o u ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : My - my u n d e r s t a n d i n g fr o m h i m i s m y r o le w i t h t h e c o m p a n y i s o p e r a ti o n a l . I s e r v e m o r e r o le o n p r o j e c t s . outsourced a c t iv i t ie s th e accounting to an in t e r n a l I have a c c o u n t in g d e p a r t m e n t a s w e ll a s a n e x te r n a l is e d a c c o u n ti n g p r a c ti c e . S o I a m n o t 10 s e r v i n g i n m y c a p a c i t y a s a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t in th e o p e r a ti o n s o f N e o S o lu t io n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Do you accept as a Chartered Accountant t h o u g h t h e g e n e r a l o b li g a t io n s t h a t a p p l y u n d e r t h e C o d e w o u l d s ti ll a p p ly t o y o u g iv e n - e v e n t h o u g h y o u a r e n o t a C h a r te r e d A c c o u n t a n t i n Business? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I d o n o t a g r e e w i t h t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e e t h i c s o f t h e p r o f e s s io n o f a c c o u n ti n g … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e e t h ic s d o a p p l y. I h a v e n e v e r s a i d t h a t t h a t d o e s n o t . I n t e r m s o f th e o b l ig a ti o n s o f l o o k i n g in t o d e t a il o n t h e b o o k s 20 a n d r e s u l ts o f th e o p e r a ti o n s I o u ts o u r c e t h a t a c ti v i ty. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : purposes. Agreed. S o I c a n ju s t b e c l e a r. We might have been at cross Yo u a c c e p t I h a v e i t fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e th a t th e e th ic s o f t h e p r o f e s s i o n c o n ti n u e t o a p p ly t o y o u . I s t h a t r ig h t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . Page 148 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a ls o c o m p ly w it h t h e o b l ig a ti o n t o p r o v i d e a n n u a l C P D D e c l a r a ti o n s g i v e n y o u r r e g is tr a ti o n a s a C h a r t e r e d Accountant? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d o t h o s e in v o lv e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t - i t i n v o l v e s s u b m i t t in g y o u r t i m e s h e e ts in t e r m s o f th e w o r k y o u d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I th i n k i t r e l a t e s to o n g o in g d e v e lo p m e n t . Is t h a t r ig h t? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d h a v e y o u d o n e s o w i th S A I C A ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l w e s u b m it th e ti m e s h e e ts a n d th e y o b v i o u s l y l o o k a t i t a n d s e e w h e th e r i t q u a l if ie s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d j u s t in t e r m s o f t h o s e e t h i c a l o b li g a ti o n s d o y o u r e g a r d i t a s o n e o f t h e e th ic a l o b li g a t io n s o f a n a c c o u n t a n t n o t t o b r i n g t h e p r o f e s s io n i n t o d is r e p u t e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u r e g a r d a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t w h o s ig n s o ff o n f in a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts a s a c c u r a te ly r e fl e c t in g t h e a ffa ir s o f 20 t h e b u s i n e s s w h e r e th a t i s n o t s o c o u l d b e i n v o lv e d in b r i n g i n g t h e p r o f e s s i o n i n t o d is r e p u te ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e n o t s i g n e d t h o s e f in a n c i a ls i n a n y c a p a c i ty a s a C h a r te r e d Ac c o u n ta n t . S o I d o n o t b e l ie v e i t is r e l e v a n t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : s ig n e d them you Oh. S o s o r r y. somewhere put S o if o n th e p a g e w h e r e y o u next Page 149 of 236 to your name Chartered 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A c c o u n t a n t w o u ld t h e n t h e o b li g a ti o n a r is e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I a m s a y i n g m y c a p a c i ty i n th e o p e r a ti o n s o f N e o S o lu t io n s I a m a D ir e c to r … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d o b v i o u s l y I a m th e p e r s o n - t h e s h a r e h o l d e r o f th e b u s i n e s s b u t in t h e c a p a c i ty a s D i r e c t o r a n d C h i e f E x e c u t iv e I s ig n t h o s e f i n a n c ia ls t h e r e b u t n o t p u r p o r t in g th a t I h a v e e x a m i n e d t h e b o o k s a n d r e c o r d s a s a n y C A w o u l d a s a s e r v ic e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r N a t a s e n w e u n d e r s ta n d e a c h o t h e r e n ti r e ly. 10 L e t m e ju s t b e c le a r o n m y q u e s ti o n . M y q u e s t io n d id n o t s u g g e s t t h a t y o u p l a y e d t h e r o l e o f a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n ta n t i n B u s i n e s s b e c a u s e I h a v e r e a d w h a t M r L o w e n t h a l h a s s a i d a n d n o t th a t it s h o u l d b e r e l e v a n t f o r t h e p r e s e n t d e t e r m i n a ti o n b u t I d o n o t s e e a b a s is o n w h i c h t o r e f u te w h a t h e s a y s . T h a t i s w h y th e q u e s ti o n s h a v e p r o g r e s s e d . I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t th e g e n e r a l e t h ic a l o b l ig a ti o n s o f a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t w h e r e v e r th e y fi n d t h e m s e l v e s a n d e v e n i f t h e y a r e n o t c o n d u c ti n g t h e a c ti v i ti e s o f a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t in B u s i n e s s . Do you understand where we are … 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e q u e s ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e i t is p a r t o f t h e e t h i c a l o b li g a ti o n s o f a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t n o t t o b r i n g t h e p r o f e s s i o n i n t o d is r e p u te . C o r r e c t ? Page 150 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I th e n a s k e d w h e t h e r a D ir e c t o r o f a c o m p a n y w h o is a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t w h o s i g n s o ff o n f in a n c ia l s t a te m e n ts in d i c a t in g w i t h h is s i g n a t u r e th a t t h e y c o r r e c tl y r e f le c t t h e f in a n c i a l p o s i ti o n o f t h e c o m p a n y in c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e th e y d o n o t . Do you r e g a r d t h a t a s b r i n g i n g t h e p r o fe s s io n i n to d is r e p u te ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a v e s i g n e d t h o s e f in a n c i a ls o n t h e b a s i s t h a t m y i n t e r n a l a c c o u n ti n g te a m a s w e ll a s t h e e x t e r n a l a c c o u n t in g t e a m h a v e d o n e t h e ir h o m e w o r k a n d s a tis f ie d th e m s e lv e s t h a t t h i s w a s 10 correct. E v e n o n t h e m a t t e r o f G a r t h v s E p h e r us ( ? ) t h a t - t h o s e fi n a n c i a l s w e r e p r e p a r e d b y M a n n i e ( ? ) F i n a n c i a l S e r v i c e s . S o y e s y o u - in t h e p r e v io u s t e s t i m o n y y o u p u t m e o n t h e s p o t in t e r m s o f s a y i n g t h e r e s h o u ld h a v e b e e n a n i n f e r e n c e a n d I s h o u l d h a v e k n o w n b e t te r b u t t h e p e r s o n w h o i s b e i n g r e m u n e r a t e d t o a c tu a lly p r e p a r e th o s e fi n a n c i a ls s h o u l d h a v e k n o w n b e tt e r. R ig h t . I made a r e a s o n a b l e a s s u m p t i o n th a t t h e fi n a n c i a l s b r o u g h t t h r o u g h t o m e a ft e r Mannie has been through them are reasonably correct and I signed t h e m o n th a t b a s is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Does that mean you did not read the page where you signature appears? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i t i s s a y i n g t h e r e b u t I a m s a y in g w e s a tis f ie d . I u n d e r s t a n d t h is o b l ig a ti o n is p la c e d b a c k o n m e a s a D i r e c t o r o f t h e c o m p a n y. I u n d e r s t a n d t h o s e . I a m n o t d e r o g a t in g fr o m t h a t b u t i t a ls o s a y s I m u s t p u t in r e a s o n a b l e s t e p s w i t h i n t h e o p e r a ti o n t o m a k e s u r e th a t t h e y a r e c o r r e c t . Page 151 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 T h e u n d e r t a k i n g t h a t M a n y ( ? ) Fi n a n c i a l S e r v ic e s h a v e g iv e n m e w a s th a t th e y w e r e t h e v e tt i n g a g e n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h o s e w e r e c o r r e c t w h ic h th e y a r e n o w s h i e l d i n g t h e m s e lv e s fr o m b u t u l ti m a t e ly a ft e r t h e S A R S a u d i t p r o c e s s t h e y h a d u n d e r t a k e n t o - t o d o t h o s e steps for me. S o I r e li e d o n t h e fa c t t h a t t h o s e s t e p s w e r e b e i n g performed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . C h a ir t h o s e c o n c l u d e o u r q u e s t i o n s in r e l a ti o n t o M r N a ta s e n ’s e v id e n c e a n d M r L o w e n t h a l ’s a ffi d a v it . CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y. Thank you. Then we can start with r e - e x a m in a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I m a y ju s t t a k e a m o m e n t C h a ir t o c l e a r u p . C H A I R P E R S O N : To c le a r u p . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t t h e r e is s p a c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is f i n e . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : B e f o r e I s t a r t C h a ir I w o u l d ju s t li k e t o g o b a c k t o a n is s u e r a is e d b y m y le a r n e d c o ll e a g u e t h i s m o r n i n g w i t h r e g a r d s t o M s Tl a ts a n a ’s r e c e n t a b s e n c e fr o m t h e R e p u b l ic o f S o u t h A fr i c a . 20 My c li e n t m e n t io n e d t o m e d u r in g t h e b r e a k t h a t h e w a s q u i t e t a k e n a b a c k b y t h e f a c t t h a t i t w a s m e n t io n e d during the course of these p r o c e e d i n g s s p e c if ic a l ly a n d a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e t e s ti m o n y t o d a y b e c a u s e a g a in i t c r e a te s a n e g a t iv e i m p r e s s i o n a n d o n e d r a w s a n e g a tiv e i n fe r e n c e th a t m y c li e n t o r N e o S o lu t io n s w a s s o m e h o w c o m p la c e n t i n th e th r e a ts o r i n ti m i d a t o r y t a c ti c s l e v e l le d a g a in s t Page 152 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M s Tl a ts a n a . S o I ju s t w a n t e d t o p la c e o n r e c o r d t h a t a n d I w il l a g r e e w i t h m e t h a t th e r e w a s n o a s s o c ia t io n c r e a te d b y t h e t w o . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t - n o t t h a t I h a v e h e a r d o f . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s m y i m p r e s s i o n is t h a t t h e t h r e a t s m a y b e r e l a t e d to threats or in ti m i d a ti o n t h a t M s T la t s a n a h a d g iv e n e v i d e n c e a b o u t p r e v i o u s l y. N o w t h e y m a y o r m a y n o t b e r e l a te d t o h e r d e p a r t u r e fr o m t h e R e p u b lic - m a y o r m a y n o t b e c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h o s e a b o u t w h ic h s h e g a v e e v i d e n c e b u t c e r t a i n l y I k n o w n o t h i n g a n d I h a v e h e a r d n o th i n g th a t 10 w o u ld n e c e s s a r ily c o n n e c t h e r d is a p p e a r a n c e to y o u r c li e n t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir if I m a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r j u s t to b e c l e a r I - I u n d e r s t a n d M r N a t a s e n t o b e q u i te c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e r e fe r e n c e t o it t h is m o r n i n g a s th o u g h t h e r e is a n y li n k t o h is e v id e n c e . I t h i n k i t is o f b e n e f i t t o th e C h a ir j u s t to e x p l a in w h y i t w a s r a is e d t h i s m o r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 C h a ir to d a y w e p l a c e b e f o r e t h e f u ll c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n a p p l ic a ti o n o f Mr N a t a s e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To c r o s s - e x a mi n e M s Tl a ts a n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If I m a y b e p e r m i t te d t o a s k M r N a t a s e n w h e t h e r h e d o e s n o t a g r e e th a t th e fa c t t h a t s h e m i g h t b e o u t o f t h e Page 153 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 R e p u b l ic i s r e l e v a n t to t h e - y o u r r e q u e s t t o c r o s s - e x a m in e h e r. D o y o u accept that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t d o e s a ff e c t o u r a b i li ty t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . N o , I t h i n k … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: I - I … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J u s t t o c la r i fy w h y I r a is e i t w i t h my a t to r n e y … CHAIRPERSON: 10 O h , o k a y. I think maybe let me hear your counsel fir s t. H e m i g h t s a y y o u - y o u … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e m ig h t c o v e r m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w o u ld lik e y o u t o - to e x p l a i n . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W e ll I th i n k … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u j u s t w a n t e d t o c l a r i fy i t ? ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: N o , n o Ms H o f m e y r a c tu a lly p r e - e m p t e d m y second point which was … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: H e r a b s e n c e n o w m a k e s c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n d i ff ic u l t i f n o t i m p o s s i b l e . S i m p ly b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e d ir e c ti o n 20 g iv e n to us by the Commission in making our a p p lic a ti o n to c r o s s - e x a m in e M s T la ts a n a o u r a p p li c a t io n w a s g iv e n to h e r a n d t h e r e q u e s t w a s m a d e to h e r b y t h e C o m m is s i o n to s u b m it a fu r t h e r a ffi d a v i t i n r e p ly a n d b a s e d o n th a t t h e C o m m i s s io n w o u l d th e n d e t e r m i n e w h e th e r o r n o t c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n w a s n e c e s s a r y a n d to w h a t extent. Page 154 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 S o it - i t d o e s b r i n g a b o u t a q u e s t io n a s t o h o w a n d if a n d w h e n w e a r e g o i n g t o b e g i v e n th e o p p o r tu n i ty t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o i t d o e s r a is e t h a t q u e s t io n . A s th i n g s s t a n d o n t h e b a s is o f w h a t w e k n o w a n d I c e r t a i n l y o n l y h e a r d t h is m o r n i n g t h a t a p p a r e n t ly s h e i s o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y. O n w h a t w e k n o w n o w w e d o n o t k n o w i f a n d w h e n s h e m a y c o m e b a c k t o m a k e h e r s e l f a v a il a b l e b u t a s M s H o f m e y r in d ic a t e d I t h i n k t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s i n v e s t ig a t o r s a r e lo o k in g i n t o t h e is s u e . A t s o m e s t a g e i n th e fu t u r e i t o u g h t to b e p o s s i b le t o r e a c h a 10 c o n c l u s i o n w h e t h e r s h e w i ll c o m e b a c k o r n o t a n d o b v io u s ly t h a t in f o r m a ti o n w o u l d b e s h a r e d w i t h y o u . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I a m g o i n g to g e t s tr a ig h t in t o t h e r e - e x a m i n a ti o n o r c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o f Mr N a t a s e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I a m n o t g o i n g t o b e l a b o u r th e C o m m i s s io n w i t h d e t a il e d r e f e r e n c e s to s p e c i fic d o c u m e n t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Save for one or two that … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a t w e n e e d t o d e a l w i th … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: B e c a u s e I o b v io u s l y w a n t t o s u m m a r is e t h e e x a m in a ti o n i n c h i e f o f m y l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e a n d b a s e d o n th a t Page 155 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 s u m m a r y I w il l th e n a d d r e s s M r N a ta s e n o n v a r i o u s p o in ts . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I w i ll tr y a n d k e e p i t a s c o n c i s e a s p o s s ib le . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : M r N a t a s e n I w o u ld li k e t o s ta r t w i t h th e is s u e o f C h a r te r e d Ac c o u n ta n t i n B u s in e s s b e c a u s e i t i s s o m e th in g t h a t w a s r a i s e d o n 1 2 J u l y - b e g in n in g o f th e t e s t i m o n y a n d a l o t o f e m p h a s is 10 w a s p l a c e d o n it b y th e C o m m is s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m a n d y o u w e r e a s k e d to m a k e c e r t a i n c o n c e s s io n s . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d y o u m a d e th o s e c o n c e s s i o n s . Yo u c o n c e d e d th a t y o u w e r e a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n ta n t i n B u s in e s s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s I d o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Yo u c o n c e d e d t h a t y o u h a d r e a d t h e C o d e o f G o o d P r a c tic e o f C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 20 Yo u conceded th a t y o u understood and a p p r e c ia t e d t h e c o n t e n t s o f th a t C o d e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. Yo u a g r e e d t o d a y g i v e n t h e a d v is e s t h a t y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d s u b s e q u e n t to 1 2 J u ly a s a ls o y o u r o w n in v e s t i g a t io n s i n t o t h e m a t te r a s a ls o Mr L o w e n t h a l ’s a d v is e s to y o u t h a t th o s e c o n c e s s i o n s w e r e i n c o r r e c t ? Page 156 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th o s e w e r e in c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Correct. N o w m u c h h a s b e e n m a d e to d a y s p e c i f ic a l ly a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t M r L o w e n t h a l i s n o t a n a t t o r n e y. a r e n o t a n a t t o r n e y. M r J u d ie l is n o t a n a t to r n e y. Yo u N o o n e is a n a tt o r n e y b u t t h e o n e p e r s o n t h a t is a n a t to r n e y is m y c o l l e a g u e M s H o f m e y r a n d s h e w a s t h e o n e w h o r a is e d t h e is s u e in i ti a l ly a n d b r o u g h t t h e C o d e t o y o u r a t te n ti o n . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 10 O k a y a n d t h e - t h e i n te n t io n b e h i n d b r i n g i n g the Code to your attention was to say to you Mr Natasen you are not ju s t a D ir e c to r o f N e o F in a n c i a l S e r v i c e s . Yo u a r e n o t ju s t t h e s o le s h a r e h o l d e r. Yo u a r e a C h a r te r e d Ac c o u n t a n t in B u s i n e s s a n d th e r e fo r e y o u a r e h e l d t o a h i g h e r s ta n d a r d t h a n a n o r d i n a r y D ir e c t o r. C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t i s N e o S o l u ti o n s n o t … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : N e o S o lu t io n s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir if I m a y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y, y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . C h a ir ju s t a t t h e o u t s e t I - I th i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t t o i n d ic a t e th a t i t i s o u r s u b m i s s i o n th a t th e s c o p e o f r e - e x a m in a ti o n r e q u ir e s n o n - l e a d i n g q u e s ti o n s t o b e p u t to a w i tn e s s and my concern at this point … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 157 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o p u t i t o n r e c o r d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t th e n a tu r e o f th e q u e s ti o n s b e i n g p u t to M r N a t a s e n a t t h e m o m e n t a r e l e a d in g q u e s t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : C o u n s e l fo r M r N a t a s e n . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a t is n o t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e r u l e s b u t I accept what Ms …. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : H o f m e y r i s s a y i n g . S o I w i ll tr y a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u w ill tr y … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : L i m i t m y li n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g t o q u e s t i o n s w h ic h d o n o t le a d th e w i t n e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Of course. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Mr Natasen I am going to read you a section o f t h e C o d e a n d I w o u l d l ik e y o u r c o m m e n t o n it . I t s a y s : 20 “ A p r o f e s s i o n a l a c c o u n t a n t - C h a r te r e d A c c o u n ta n t in B u s i n e s s m ig h t b e a n e m p l o y e e , c o n tr a c t o r, p a r t n e r, D ir e c t o r, o w n e r, m a n a g e r o r v o lu n t e e r o f a n e m p l o y i n g o r g a n i s a t io n . T h e l e g a l fr o m o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th t h e p r o f e s s i o n a l a c c o u n ta n t w it h t h e e m p l o y i n g o r g a n is a ti o n h a s n o b e a r i n g o n t h e Page 158 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 e th ic a l r e s p o n s i b ili t ie s p l a c e d o n t h e p r o fe s s i o n a l a c c o u n t a n t. ” O k a y. Yo u h a v e r e a d t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. I a m g o in g to r e a d y o u S e c t i o n 2 6 0 . 11 A 1 o f t h e Pr o fe s s io n a l C o d e a n d i t s a y s t h a t a n d I a m g o i n g t o g o to t h e r e l e v a n t p o r ti o n o f t h e p a r a g r a p h . I t s a y s : “There is a g r e a te r e x p e c t a ti o n for fi n a n c i a l , t e c h n o l o g i c a l , p h y s ic a l a n d in t a n g i b l e r e s o u r c e s o n such 10 i n d iv id u a ls to ta k e whatever a c ti o n is a p p r o p r i a t e f r o m t h e p u b lic i n t e r e s t t o r e s p o n d to n o n - c o m p li a n c e o r e x p e c t e d n o n - c o m p l ia n c e o t h e r t h a n p r o f e s s i o n a l a c c o u n t a n ts w i th t h e e m p l o y i n g o r g a n i s a t io n . Th is is because of senior p r o f e s s i o n a l a c c o u n t a n ts ’ r o l e s , p o s i t io n s , s p h e r e s o f i n f l u e n c e w i t h i n t h e e m p l o y in g o r g a n i s a t io n . ” Right? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : R ig h t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 20 D o y o u u n d e r - w h a t d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d fr o m t h o s e t w o p r o v is i o n s r e a d t o g e t h e r i n th e c o n te x t o f M s H o f m e y r ’s li n e o f q u e s t io n in g a n d h e r a s s e r t i o n s t o y o u t h a t y o u w e r e a C h a r te r e d A c c o u n t a n t i n B u s in e s s a s o p p o s e d t o s i m p l y a s o l e D ir e c t o r a n d shareholder of Neo? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I b e li e v e I h a v e - I h a v e n o t b e e n t h r o u g h - s o r r y a g a i n th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. I h a v e n o t b e e n o p e r a ti n g i n th e Page 159 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 c a p a c i ty a s a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t . I h a d t o m y m in d p u t i n c h e c k s a n d b a la n c e s in t h e a c c o u n t s d e p a r t m e n t a n d w i t h t h e e x t e r n a l e n ti ty in o r d e r to p r o v i d e m e th e c o m f o r t t h a t t h e b o o k s a n d r e c o r d s a r e c o r r e c t a n d b e i n g c o r r e c t ly p r e p a r e d . S o w h e n I s ig n e d th e s e f in a n c ia ls t h e r e w a s n o i n c li n i n g a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e t h a t I a m s i g n i n g t h e m o ff a s a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t. T h e d e fi n i t io n o f C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t in B u s i n e s s th e r e is s o m e t h i n g I h a v e n o w b e e n d r a w n a t t e n t io n t o , t o g iv e i t a f o c u s o n p o s t t h e e a r li e r t e s ti m o n y b u t fr o m m y r e c o l le c ti o n I h a v e - I h a v e g o t c h e c k s a n d 10 balances. I h a d - m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t I h a d a t t h a t p o in t i n ti m e in t h e c o m p a n y a n d I m a d e r e a s o n a b l e a s s u m p t io n s t h a t t h e b o o k s a n d r e c o r d s w e r e a c c u r a t e a s I w a s s i g n i n g th e m o ff w i t h a d e q u a t e c o n tr o ls in p l a c e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: So you would disagree then if I said to you, y o u a r e h e ld t o a h ig h e r s t a n d a r d s i g n i n g o ff th o s e f in a n c ia ls t h a n y o u w o u ld o r d i n a r i ly b e h e l d t o i f y o u w e r e t h e C h a r te r e d Ac c o u n ta n t p r e p a r in g th o s e fi n a n c i a l s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I - y e s , I d is a g r e e . 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Yo u d is a g r e e , o k a y a n d w o u l d y o u a g r e e t h a t in y o u r c a p a c i ty a s D ir e c to r a n d s o le s h a r e h o ld e r o f N e o th a t y o u a r e n o t e n g a g e d b y N e o a s a n e m p l o y e e o r g a n is a ti o n a s d e fi n e d w i th i n th e Code? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I c o n fir m t h a t I a m n o t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. S o th e r e fo r e s tr ic tly s p e a k i n g t h o s e Page 160 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e C o d e d e a li n g w i th p r o fe s s i o n a l a c c o u n t a n t s a n d C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t s i n B u s i n e s s h a v e n o a p p l ic a t i o n t o y o u ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t b a s e d o n r e a d i n g i t l ik e t h a t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l th e la s t tw o w e r e - w e r e l e a d in g b u t I w il l - I w il l le t g o . L e t u s p r o c e e d . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: C h a ir I d is a g r e e w i t h y o u . I have read the R u l e s v e r y c a r e f u ll y a b o u t le a d i n g q u e s ti o n s a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s p r o c e e d . I t is o k a y. 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : L e t u s ju s t p r o c e e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s p r o c e e d , ja . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : B e c a u s e w e n e e d t o g e t t h r o u g h th is a n d I a m e n t i tl e d t o r e - e x a m i n e t h e w i tn e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h e s e a r e q u e s ti o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n p u t to t h e w i t n e s s b y th e C o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l te a m a n d t h e r e I - I b e li e v e I a m e n t i tl e d t o ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: No, no you - you must proceed. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Thank you. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I w a s ju s t i n d ic a ti n g y o u h a v e u n d e r ta k e n t o - t o tr y and … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I a m tr y in g to k e e p i t a s c o n c is e a s p o s s i b l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I a c c e p t t h a t . I a c c e p t th a t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o M r N a ta s e n f o l lo w in g o n th a t o k a y i f y o u a r e n o t a C h a r te r e d A c c o u n ta n t i n B u s i n e s s a n d y o u w e r e p r e s e n te d Page 161 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w i t h t h e f i n a n c i a ls w h ic h w e r e p r e p a r e d b y y o u r a c c o u n t a n t s i n c o n j u n c ti o n w i th y o u r a c c o u n t i n g s t a ff a n d r e p r e s e n ta t io n s w e r e m a d e t o y o u r e g a r d in g th e a c c u r a c y o f t h o s e fi n a n c i a l d o c u m e n ts . D o y o u s e e a n y p r o b l e m w i t h y o u b e i n g a b l e t o s ig n t h o s e d o c u m e n ts w it h o u t h a v i n g a n y r e f e r e n c e w h a ts o e v e r t o t h e o r ig in a l b o o k s o f p r i m e e n tr y, t h e s o u r c e d o c u m e n ta t io n , th e le d g e r s , p r e v i o u s fi n a n c i a l s a n y o t h e r fi n a n c i a l i n fo r m a ti o n o f t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w o u l d b e r e l e v a n t t o t h e fi n a n c i a l s t h a t h a v e b e e n d r a f t e d a n d p r e p a r e d a n d p u t b e f o r e y o u f o r s ig n a t u r e ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : My u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t M a n y ( ? ) F i n a n c i a l S e r v ic e s w o u ld h a v e d o n e t h o s e s te p s b e f o r e I r e c e i v e d th e - t h e fi n a n c i a l s t o s ig n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: G o o d . I n f a c t it is o b li g a t io n o f t h e c o m p a n y t o h a n d o v e r t h e b o o k s o f p r i m e e n tr y, t h e s o u r c e d o c u m e n ts a n d th e lik e … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: To t h e a c c o u n t a n t s w h o t h e n c o m p i le t h e fi n a n c i a l in f o r m a t io n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. In a n a c c u r a te w a y b a s e d o n th e c o r r e c t r e p o r t in g s t a n d a r d s a n d t h e n a t a l a te r s t a g e t h e a u d it o r s w o u l d c o m e in if … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I f a u d it o r s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I f a u d it o r s a r e n e c e s s a r y a n d w a r r a n t i t i n t e r m s o f th e - t h e r e l e v a n t l e g i s l a ti o n a n d t h e y w o u ld th e n d o s a m p li n g Page 162 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 in o r d e r t o d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e a c c o u n t s t h a t h a v e b e e n p r e p a r e d w e r e c o r r e c t . Is t h a t y o u r … ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. S o d o w e - d o w e b o t h - I c e r ta i n ly accept but do you accept that based on the representations of your a c c o u n t a n ts a n d y o u r in t e r n a l a c c o u n t in g s t a ff w h e n t h o s e f in a n c i a ls w e r e p u t b e f o r e y o u , y o u fe l t c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t t h e y w e r e a c c u r a t e a n d t h a t y o u c o u ld s i g n t h e m . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 10 T h a t is c o r r e c t a s w e l l in th e c o n t e x t o f P a t e l h a d g iv e n m e a s s u r a n c e t h a t h e w a s t h e w a tc h d o g c h e c k i n g o v e r t h e work of - of Ruben. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Ye s . Yo u s a id s o . O k a y. I a m g o i n g t o l e a v e t h e p r o fe s s i o n a l C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t i n B u s i n e s s i s s u e t h e r e . S i m p ly b e c a u s e I d o n o t b e li e v e i t w a r r a n ts a n y f u r t h e r a t t e n t i o n . a p p lic a b l e . It is not L e t u s ju s t g o fo r a m o m e n t t o t h e o b l ig a ti o n - s t a tu t o r y o b li g a ti o n t h a t r e s ts o n t h e c o m p a n y fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e p r o d u c t io n a n d d is p a t c h to th ir d p a r t i e s o f a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts . A r e y o u f a m ili a r w i t h S e c ti o n 3 0 o f t h e C o m p a n i e s A c t M r N a t a s e n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A r e y o u f a m i li a r w it h t h e r e g u la t io n s t o t h e C o m p a n ie s A c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. Ar e y o u a w a r e t h a t b a s e d o n t h e t u r n o v e r o f N e o th a t it h a s a s ta t u s a s e i t h e r a s m a ll , m e d iu m o r la r g e o r g a n i s a t io n … Page 163 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W i th i n t h e r e g u l a t io n s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A r e y o u - i f I a s k t h is q u e s ti o n le t m e c h a n g e i t b e c a u s e I k n o w th a t C h a ir is g o i n g to ta k e a n is s u e . W h e r e d o e s N e o r a n k i n th a t s t a t u s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O u r c u r r e n t tu r n o v e r s - t u r n o v e r s o v e r t h e p e r i o d s t h e l a s t fo u r / fi v e y e a r s h a v e b e e n b e l o w 5 0 m i ll io n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 10 B e lo w 5 0 m i lli o n . So then having regard to S e c t io n 3 0 o f t h e C o m p a n i e s A c t R e g u l a ti o n 2 7 t h e r e o f i t w o u l d - N e o w o u ld q u a li fy a s a s m a ll e n t e r p r i s e . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S m a l l to m e d iu m , j a . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Small to medium. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t i s b e l o w 5 0 , j a . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d th e n t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s t h e r e is n o o b li g a ti o n o n t h e c o m p a n y t o p r o d u c e a u d i t e d fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. S o t h e q u e s ti o n s th a t w e r e l e d b y m y le a r n e d c o ll e a g u e o n 1 2 J u ly r e la t in g t o y o u r o b li g a t io n in t e r m s o f t h e 20 C o m p a n ie s A c t t o p r o d u c e a u d i t e d f in a n c ia l s t a t e m e n t s w a s in c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. Mr N a t a s e n m u c h - m u c h h a s b e e n m a d e d u r in g t h e e x a m i n a t io n i n c h ie f o f th e f a c t th a t y o u r v a r i o u s s t a te m e n ts fu r n is h e d t o t h e C o m m is s i o n o v e r th e p e r i o d s i n c e t h e C o m m i s s i o n fi r s t e n g a g e d w i t h y o u h a v e b e e n b y a n d la r g e i n c o n s is t e n t Page 164 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a n d i n a c c u r a t e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. I n f a c t o n e o f th e te r m s m o s t fr e q u e n t ly u s e d b y m y le a r n e d c o l le a g u e h a s b e e n M r N a t a s e n I r e fe r to y o u r p r e v i o u s t e s ti m o n y. O k a y. T h a t i s th e l e a d in t o I r e f e r y o u to y o u r p r e v i o u s t e s t i m o n y a n d I n o w r e f e r y o u t o a s p e c if ic s ta t e m e n t a n d t h e r e a r e i n a c c u r a c i e s a n d d i s c r e p a n c ie s . C o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. I w i ll g i v e y o u s o m e e x a m p le s o f s o m e 10 o f t h e d is c r e p a n c i e s t h a t h a v e b e e n r a i s e d b y m y l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e a n d t h e s e c o m e s t r a ig h t fr o m t h e E X H I B I T D D 1 0 A w h i c h is t h e tr a n s c r i p t i o n fr o m th e l a s t h e a r i n g o n 1 2 J u ly. Ms Hofmeyr says you misled the C o m m i s s i o n in y o u r p r i o r s u b m is s i o n in t h a t t h e r e a c t u a ll y w e r e th r e e m e e ti n g s h e ld w it h J u d i e l a n d n o t t w o . Yo u h a d p r e v io u s ly s ig n e d w i t n e s s s t a te m e n ts . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y, s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If I may just request a reference. c a n f o ll o w. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : P a g e 6 3 l in e 1 5 p a g e … CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r w a n ts t o s a y s o m e t h i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Page 165 of 236 So that we 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I w a s j u s t r e q u e s ti n g o u r l e a r n e d fr ie n d t o g iv e u s a r e f e r e n c e i n th e tr a n s c r i p t w h e n h e r e fe r s t o i t . Just so t h a t w e c a n p ic k i t u p . C h a ir y o u a l s o h a v e a c o p y o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t a s w e ll . T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I w a s - I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I - I k n e w t h a t - o h fo r 1 2 J u ly ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. Ye s . 10 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: belabour th e C h a ir a s I s a i d t o y o u I d o n o t w a n t t o C o m m is s i o n w i th us h a v in g to r e fe r e n c e s p e c i f ic d o c u m e n t a ti o n i n s p e c i fi c fi le s a g a in . I t h in k w h a t - a b e t t e r a p p r o a c h w o u ld be for Ms Hofmeyr if she v e r i ly b e l ie v e s th a t I am m is r e p r e s e n t in g t h e a s s e r ti o n s m a d e b y h e r w h e n I r e fe r e n c e t h e m i n t h e tr a n s c r i p ti o n . I t h i n k s h e s h o u l d j u s t s a y s o a n d t h e n w e c a n g o t o t h o s e s p e c if ic … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h i n k h e r r e q u e s t w a s fo r y o u t o m e n t io n w h e r e in t h e t ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I am … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e i n t h e tr a n s c r ip t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I a m m o r e th a n h a p p y t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I t i s p a g e 6 3 l i n e 1 5 . P a g e 6 7 l in e 2 1 . P a g e 6 9 li n e 2 0 . P a g e 8 0 l i n e 2 a n d t h e s e a r e j u s t e x a m p l e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Page 166 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Of the a ll e g e d in c o n s is t e n c i e s that c o n s i s te n tl y f e a tu r e i n M r N a t a s e n ’s s t a t e m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h e r e w a s n o m e e t in g s c h e d u le d f o r 1 0 M a y b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h e C o m m is s i o n . Yo u w e r e m a d e a w a r e o f y o u r r ig h t to l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t io n a n d t h e r e a p p e a r e d t o b e m u lt i p l e v e r s i o n s s u b m i tt e d b y y o u t h r o u g h y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h th e C o m m i s s i o n . S o t h o s e a r e j u s t s o m e o f t h e e x a m p l e s o f t h e a ll e g e d i n c o n s i s te n c ie s a n d I d o n o t t h i n k m y - m y l e a r n e d c o l l e a g u e c a n d is p u t e t h e f a c t th a t s h e 10 h a s o n s e v e r a l o c c a s i o n s s a i d t o y o u w i t h r e fe r e n c e t o o n e o r m o r e d o c u m e n ts t h a t t h e r e a r e i n c o n s is te n c i e s b u t t h e f a c t o f t h e m a tt e r is t h a t th e s e i n c o n s i s te n c e s o r w h a t a s l a w y e r s w o u ld r e fe r t o ( i n d is t in c t ) t h e r e i s n o t h i n g m a t e r ia l t h a t t u r n s o n t h e m . O k a y. T h e y a r e f o r e x a m p l e t h e - t h e is s u e o f th e t h r e e m e e ti n g s v e r s u s t w o . M r N a t a s e n e x p l a i n e d th a t y e s h e w a s in c o r r e c t in - i n t h e s e c o n d s t a t e m e n t a n d t h a t. H e h a d a c t u a ll y f o r g o t t e n a b o u t t h e p r e v i o u s m e e ti n g b u t t h e q u e s t io n is w h a t r e l e v a n c e a n d w h a t - w h y 20 is i t m a t e r i a l? W h y is t h a t m i s s i n g m e e t in g m a t e r ia l to w h a t t h e Commission in v e s ti g a t in g is and what the a l l e g a ti o n s are that M s H o f m e y r is p u t t in g fo r w a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t - w h a t y o u m a y w is h t o d o is s e e w h a t y o u w is h t o p u t t o h i m f o r h i m t o s a y s o m e t h in g a n d s e e w h a t y o u m ig h t w is h t o r e s e r v e f o r w h e n s u b m i s s i o n s a r e m a d e w h e n y o u c a n s a y n o r e l ia n c e s h o u l d b e p l a c e d o n t h i s o r t h a t o r th a t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : J a . I a m n o t m a k in g a s p e c if ic s u b m is s io n o r Page 167 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a s p e c i fi c s ta t e m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I am making a general submission … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A s r e g a r d s t o t h e fa c t th a t t h e r e h a v e b e e n m u l ti p l e in c o n s is t e n c i e s a ll e g e d in v a r i o u s s t a t e m e n t s s u b m it t e d b y M r N a t a s e n a n d I d o n o t t h i n k a n y b o d y h e r e w o u ld d is a g r e e w i t h m e . I t h i n k t h a t - t h a t is c o m m o n c o u r s e . I a m g e t t in g t o th e p o i n t t h a t I - t h a t I i n te n d r a is in g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: M r N a t a s e n e a r li e r o n t o d a y y o u q u e s t i o n e d m e - i t w a s a c t u a l ly d u r in g th e l u n c h - a n d y o u a s k e d m e w h e r e i t w a s w h e r e - w h e r e t h e l i n e o f q u e s t io n in g t h a t w a s b e i n g l e d b y t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l te a m w a s - w a s g o i n g . W h a t - w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f it w a s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a , I d i d a s k th a t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d I e x p l a i n e d t o y o u th a t b e c a u s e y o u couldn’t I’m understand and just r e l a y in g what – you couldn’t u n d e r s t a n d w h y ti m e a f t e r ti m e i n c o n s i s t e n c i e s h a d b e e n b r o u g h t to y o u r a tt e n ti o n a n d a s y o u q u i t e r ig h t ly s a i d t h e s e w e r e o f n o c o n s e q u e n c e , t h e s e a r e i m m a t e r i a l in c o n s is t e n c ie s , w h e r e is th e C o m m i s s i o n g o i n g w i t h i ts q u e s t io n s , a n d I e x p l a in e d t o y o u t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s ti g a ti o n s h a v e a tw o - p r o n g a p p r o a c h , th e fir s t is t h e Page 168 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 2 0 4 s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u g a v e , o k a y, a n d i n t h a t r e g a r d t h e C o m m is s i o n ’s a s s e r t io n s , o b v i o u s ly M s H o f m e y r h a s n ’ t s a id i t e x p r e s s l y, b u t t h a t ’s w h e r e h e r li n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g is g o i n g , i s t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e in c o n s is t e n c i e s i n t h e s ta t e m e n ts , a n d I m a k i n g a p u t to y o u , I w a n t y o u t o e it h e r a g r e e o r d is a g r e e , b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e i n c o n s is t e n c i e s i n y o u r s t a te m e n ts th e e ff e c t o f t h a t is i n t e r m s o f S e c t i o n 2 0 4 o f t h e C r i m i n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t i s t h a t w e h a v e n ’ t g iv e n h o n e s t a n d f r a n k te s ti m o n y, s o t h a t ’s th e f ir s t p a r t o f t h e 2 0 4 a t t a c k f o r u s e o f a b e t te r w o r d , t h e s e c o n d is t h e P O C A l e g is l a t i o n t h a t m y le a r n e d c o l le a g u e r e fe r r e d y o u 10 t o , a n d s p e c i fi c a lly S e c t io n 6 t h e r e o f , w h i c h – a n d I w i ll j u s t r e a d i t t o y o u a g a i n q u i c k l y j u s t s o t h a t y o u – t o jo g y o u r m e m o r y, S e c t io n 6 d e a ls w i t h a c q u is i ti o n s , p o s s e s s io n s , o r u s e o f p r o c e e d s o f u n l a w f u l a c ti v i ti e s , a n d b a s ic a l ly w h a t i t s a y s i s th a t i f y o u h a v e p o s s e s s i o n o f p r o p e r ty a n d y o u k n o w o r o u g h t r e a s o n a b l y to h a v e k n o w n th a t i f o n e is p a r t o f t h e p r o c e e d s o f u n la w f u l a c t iv i t ie s y o u ’r e g u il ty o f a c r i m in a l o ffe n c e , r i g h t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Ye s I r e c a ll t h a t . O k a y, s o t h e s e c o n d p r o n g o f t h e a t t a c k o f 2 0 4 i s t o tr y a n d c o n v i n c e o n t h e e v i d e n c e , to tr y a n d c o n v in c e 20 p o t e n t i a l ly the in c o n s is t e n c i e s , a u th o r i ti e s that you are g u il t y not o n ly of the t h e m i s r e p r e s e n ta t io n , t h e l a c k o f fr a n k n e s s a n d h o n e s ty i n y o u r e v id e n c e b u t y o u ’r e a ls o g u i lt y o f h a v i n g u s e d p r o c e e d s t h a t y o u o u g h t t o h a v e k n o w n o r y o u k n e w w e r e th e p r o c e e d s o f u n l a w f u l a c tiv i ti e s , s o th a t ’s t h e – I’ m a n s w e r i n g y o u r q u e s t i o n n o w b e c a u s e I’ m g e t ti n g t o th e v e r y p o i n t t h a t w e n e e d to t o u c h o n . Page 169 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 T h e la s t p r o n g o f t h e a t ta c k is t h a t t h e 2 0 4 s t a t e m e n t , a n d I s e e t h a t m y c o ll e a g u e w a s b e la b o u r i n g th e p o i n t t h i s m o r n in g , t h e 2 0 4 s t a te m e n t it s e l f h a s n ’t b e e n v a li d l y ta k e n a n d th e r e fo r e i t’s l e g a ll y u n e n fo r c e a b l e , o k a y. S o w e h a v e e ff e c t iv e ly a th r e e - p r o n g a p p r o a c h . W e ’v e g o t th e la c k of fr a n k n e s s and h o n e s ty, because of your i n c o n s is t e n t s t a te m e n ts , w e ’v e g o t th e fa c t t h a t t h e 2 0 4 is n o t a l e g a lly v i a b l e d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e i t w a s n ’ t t a k e n b y a p r o p e r ly a u th o r is e d p e r s o n i n t h e c o r r e c t m a n n e r, a n d l a s tl y y o u ’r e i n v i o la t io n o f t h e P O C A 10 le g i s l a ti o n b e c a u s e y o u h a d u s e o f th e 9 . 9 m il li o n a n d t h e r e fo r e y o u a r e g u il ty o f a c r i m i n a l o ffe n c e . S o w e h a v e to d e a l w i t h t h e s e in c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n b e c a u s e t h e y a r e o b v i o u s ly v e r y m a te r i a l is s u e s a n d o b v i o u s ly a ff e c t h o w t h is m a t t e r p r o c e e d s . M r N a t a s e n le t ’s ju s t d e a l w i t h t h e i n c o n s is t e n c ie s a s a s ta r t in g p o in t . W o u l d y o u a g r e e w i t h t h e s u b m is s i o n t h a t th e in c o n s is t e n c i e s to d a t e t h a t h a v e b e e n r a is e d w i t h y o u a r e i m m a t e r i a l a n d i r r e l e v a n t t o t h e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is q u it e l e a d i n g . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 20 C h a ir t h is i s th e t h ir d ti m e w e ’v e t o u c h e d o n t h e is s u e o f th e l e a d i n g q u e s t i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Mmm. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I ’ m a s k i n g M r N a ta s e n w h e t h e r h e b e li e v e s in h is o p in i o n , I ’ m n o t a s k i n g f o r a q u a l i fi e d – I ’ m a s k i n g f o r h i s s u b j e c ti v e o p i n i o n w h e t h e r h e b e li e v e s t h a t th e i n c o n s i s te n c i e s t h a t h a d b e e n r a i s e d b y m y l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e i n h is v a r io u s s ta t e m e n ts a r e o f a Page 170 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 m a t e r i a l n a tu r e o r n o t . I t’s a v e r y s i m p le q u e s t i o n , i t ’s n o t a le g a l q u e s t io n , i t’s n o t a q u e s t io n t h a t r e q u ir e s a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t in b u s i n e s s t o a n s w e r, i t’s a s i m p le q u e s ti o n b a s e d o n s u b j e c t iv it y. I d o n ’ t t h i n k i t ’s a l e a d in g q u e s t io n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Maybe I can respond. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W h e n I w a s fir s t c o n t a c te d b y th e C o m m i s s i o n I w e n t in u s in g t h e 2 0 4 w h ic h w a s a l r e a d y i s s u e d i n O c t o b e r o f 2 0 1 7 , s o w h e n i w a s c o n ta c te d I a c t u a l ly w e n t to t h e m w i t h 10 t h e e v i d e n c e , a t t h a t p o in t in t i m e . T h e fu r t h e r e v i d e n c e I h a d w a s t h e recording which the DCPI Hawks did not have, so when I took the r e c o r d i n g I c o n t a c te d Yu d e e l a n d s a i d d o y o u w a n t t h i s r e c o r d i n g b e c a u s e i t a c tu a lly p r o v e s t o t a l ly c l e a r ly t h a t I w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t t h i s w a s S A E x p r e s s ’ m o n e y a n d t h e y s a i d n o th e y h a d w h a t t h e y n e e d e d a n d h e d o e s n ’ t b e l ie v e th e y n e e d e d i t , i f t h e y w a n t e d it th e y w i ll a s k f o r it , s o in M a r c h o f t h is y e a r w h e n I w a s c o n ta c t e d b y th e C o m m i s s i o n I w e n t t o t h e m , t h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g t e a m w it h e x a c tly t h a t, t h i n k i n g t h a t o k a y t h is is a lr e a d y a m a tt e r th a t is s i t ti n g a t t h e H a w k s , t h e y a r e p r o b a b ly n e e d i n g t h e e v id e n c e t o g o in t o t h e S t a te C a p t u r e p r o c e s s to 20 s e e w h e th e r i t c a n fl o w a n y fu r t h e r. T h a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h e n I s t a r te d th e p r o c e s s . Then m o r e a n d m o r e q u e s ti o n s s t a r t e d t o c o m e . N o w r e m e m b e r a t t h e ti m e w h e n I w a s b r o u g h t , w h e n t h i s w a s b r o u g h t to m y a t t e n t i o n b y Yu d e e l t h e n I s a id h e r e ’s a l l t h e in f o r m a t io n , t h e n h e a s s is te d m e i n p r e p a r i n g t h e a ff id a v i t . I f t h e a ffi d a v it i s s c a n t o r d o e s n ’ t r e fl e c t e v e r y s i n g l e Page 171 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 p o i n t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g n o w a s th e C o m m is s io n ’s i n v e s ti g a to r s p i c k u p m o r e a n d m o r e th e y ’r e lo o k in g f o r m o r e c la r i ty, s o e v e r y t h i n g th a t h a s b e e n p r o v i d e d t o d a te is t o p r o v id e t h a t c l a r i t y th a t h a s b e e n s o u g h t a t e a c h p o i n t in ti m e , s o t o m e y e s , i f t h e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g I h a d n o t k n o w n a t th a t p o i n t i n ti m e t h a t I p i c k u p n o w t h a t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n is d i ffe r e n t , a s I p ic k it u p I s h a r e d t h a t , s o i t ’s n o t – t h e in c o n s is t e n c y s h o u ld n o t b e c o n s id e r e d a s m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s , th e i n c o n s i s te n c ie s a r e b e c a u s e it a p p e a r s th a t th e C o m m i s s i o n is r e q u i r in g a m u c h f u r th e r le v e l o f d e t a i l t h a n w e h a d t h r e e y e a r s a g o w h e n th is m a t te r c a m e a b o u t a n d 10 t h a t ’s r e a l ly h o w i t ’s e v o lv e d f r o m t h e r e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a n k s M r N a t a s e n , I t h in k t h a t q u it e s u c c i n c tl y a n s w e r s th e m a j o r i ty o f th a t q u e s ti o n , b u t th e fa c t o f t h e m a t t e r is t h a t y o u r v a r i o u s s t a te m e n t s a r e v e r y c o n s is te n t t h r o u g h o u t , t h e t h r e a d o f t h e s t a te m e n ts is b y a n d la r g e i d e n t ic a l t h r o u g h o u t a ll t h e s t a te m e n ts , t h e o n l y th in g t h a t d i ff e r s i s t h e a d d i ti o n a l in f o r m a ti o n t h a t ’s p r o v i d e d a n d a s y o u j u s t q u i t e r i g h t ly s a i d t h a t h a p p e n s th r o u g h s p e c i f ic c o n te x t w h e r e s p e c i fic in f o r m a t io n is s o u g h t a n d in e ff e c t y o u t h e n s u p p le m e n t t h e s ta t e m e n ts a s y o u g o a l o n g , b u t s u p p l e m e n t a ti o n d o e s n ’t e q u a t e t o i n c o n s i s te n c y, w o u l d y o u a g r e e w i th t h a t ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . O k a y, M r N a t a s e n in s o f a r a s – w e ’r e g o i n g t o g o i n to t h i s i n a lo t m o r e d e ta il , b u t i n s o f a r a s y o u r k n o w l e d g e a s r e g a r d s th e u n l a w fu l n e s s o f t h e f u n d s th a t y o u h a d i n y o u r a c c o u n t , t h a t y o u h a d i n y o u r a c c o u n t t h a t f lo w e d fr o m K o r o n e k a i n t o N e o S o lu t io n s a c c o u n t , y o u ’v e a lr e a d y t e s ti f i e d , I ’ m j u s t c o n fir m i n g th is , Page 172 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h a t y o u h a d n o k n o w l e d g e a s t o th e u n l a w f u ln e s s o f t h e s o u r c e o f t h o s e f u n d s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t th e ti m e d e f i n i t e ly n o t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A t t h e t i m e d e f in i te ly n o t , a n d i n t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s a n d i n te r m s o f th e r e q u is i t e l e g is l a ti o n , s p e c i fic a lly P O C A t o w h ic h m y l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e r e f e r r e d th e r e h a s to b e i n te n t , y o u h a d t o h a v e k n o w n o f th e u n l a w f u l n e s s i n o r d e r t o t o v io l a t e t h a t le g i s l a tiv e p r o v i s i o n is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 10 Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. A n d b e c a u s e y o u h a d n o k n o w l e d g e t h e r e w a s n o v io la t io n c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t’s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: C o r r e c t , o k a y. Mr N a t a s e n l e t’s j u s t d e a l w i t h th e 2 0 4 a ff id a v i t , y o u g a v e t e s ti m o n y t h is m o r n i n g t h a t th e a ffi d a v i t w a s p r e p a r e d b y Mr Yu d e e l a n d t h a t h e p r e s e n t e d i t t o y o u a n d t h a t h e in e ff e c t d id th a t w it h Ms M a g o t s i o n t h e p h o n e a n d th a t p u r s u a n t to t h a t s ta t e m e n t h a v i n g b e e n p r e p a r e d y o u t h e n d e p o s e d t o i t a n d i t w a s s u b m i tt e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . O k a y. T h e 2 0 4 i ts e l f Mr N a t a s e n a s y o u q u i te r i g h tly p o i n t e d o u t e a r l ie r is a s ta n d a r d fo r m a ffi d a v it s a v e fo r th e c o n te n t t h a t y o u in c l u d e o r i n c o r p o r a t e i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ja, I think so. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I t ’s a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e s p e c i f ic s e c ti o n s o f t h e A c t a n d y o u r o b li g a t i o n t o lo d g e c r i m i n a l c o m p la i n t s i s s o m e th i n g t h a t Page 173 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a n d I k n o w y o u s a id y o u w e r e n ’t fa m i li a r w it h 2 0 4 ’s b u t w o u ld y o u a p p r e c ia t e t h a t t h a t ’s p a r t o f t h e l e g is la t io n a n d h a s t o b e i n c o r p o r a t e d . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A s a s t a n d a r d c la u s e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: B y i m p lic a ti o n i n t o t h a t a ffi d a v it . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Correct ja. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o w h e n m y l e a r n e d c o l le a g u e q u e s ti o n e d y o u o n t h a t a n d a s k e d y o u w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u h a d r e a d t h a t p r o v is io n a n d w h e th e r o r n o t y o u h a d t a k e n u n n e c e s s a r y s t e p s h o w w i ll y o u 10 r e s p o n d to t h a t , j u s t t o b e c le a r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll a s I s a id a t t h e ti m e I h a d s p o k e n t o Yu d e e l a n d Yu d e e l s a i d t h a t t h e m a t t e r w a s a l r e a d y u n d e r a c a s e n u m b e r a t th e C o m m e r c ia l C r i m e U n i t s o t h e r e f o r e th e r e w a s n o n e e d t o d o a n y f u r th e r r e p o r t in g , a l l t h e y w o u l d d o is a p p e n d i t t o t h e ir e x i s ti n g c a s e fi le , t h a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g fr o m M r Yu d e e l a t t h e ti m e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Okay so as far as you are concerned the a ffi d a v i t , th e 2 0 4 w a s t a k e n le g a l ly, g iv e n t h e f a c t t h a t Mr Yu d e e l r e p r e s e n t e d t h a t h e w a s a p r iv a te in v e s ti g a to r, c o r r e c t ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d t h a t h e w a s w o r k i n g w i th t h e D P C I . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . And that he had been tasked by the relevant p e r s o n , M s M a g o ts i i n s e c u r in g t h e 2 0 4 a ffi d a v i t a n d y o u t h e n w e r e p r i v y to a c o n v e r s a ti o n a l th o u g h y o u d i d n ’ t h e a r t h e e x a c t e x c h a n g e , Page 174 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 y o u w e r e p r i v y t o t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n , I u n d e r s t o o d fr o m th a t t h a t M s M a g o t s i h a d d ir e c te d Mr Yu d e e l t o t a k e t h e 2 0 4 a ff id a v i t u n d e r o a t h fr o m y o u . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a t’s c o r r e c t. S o a s fa r a s y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d a t t h e t i m e in g iv i n g t h e 2 0 4 t h e 2 0 4 w a s ta k e n b y a le g a ll y a u th o r is e d p e r s o n . 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : That was my understanding at the time. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d t h a t t h e 2 0 4 w a s b in d i n g o n y o u . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t’s c o r r e c t. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d th e c o n te n ts o f t h e 2 0 4 w o u ld i n y o u r s u b m is s io n , a n d l e t ’s t a k e in t o a c c o u n t t h e a l le g a ti o n s b y m y l e a r n e d c o l l e a g u e t h a t th e r e a r e in c o n s is t e n c i e s , w o u l d y o u s a y t h a t th e 2 0 4 a c c o r d s w i t h t h e v a r i o u s o th e r s t a te m e n t s th a t y o u s u b m i tt e d t o t h e Commission to date. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t s ti ll d o e s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I t s til l d o e s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : In m y v ie w it s t il l d o e s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Is th e r e a n y r e s p e c t i n w h ic h y o u b e l i e v e it d i g r e s s e s o r d iv e r g e s fr o m th o s e s t a te m e n ts ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : monies W e ll I d o n ’ t b e l i e v e t h e r e ’s i n a c c u r a c i e s , t h e t h a t w e r e r e c e iv e d w e r e v a l i d ly p a id back to him, the a c c o u n t in g fo r t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 i s w h a t A d v o c a te H o f m e y r h a s d i s p u t e d b u t I h a v e e x p l a i n e d th a t , i t w a s p la c e d in t h e r e t o a c c o u n t fo r t h e f u l l 9 .9 m i ll io n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y, s o I t h i n k w e w il l l e a v e i t t h e r e , m y Page 175 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 p o i n t w a s s i m p ly t h a t a s f a r a s y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d y o u v e r ily b e li e v e d t h a t t h e 2 0 4 s u b p o e n a w a s b e i n g t a k e n b y a l e g a lly a u th o r is e d r e p r e s e n t a tiv e , t h a t i t c o n t a i n e d th e n e c e s s a r y l e g is la t iv e p r e r e q u i s i t e s a n d th a t i t w a s l e g a lly b i n d i n g o n y o u . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a t’s c o r r e c t. W o u l d y o u s u b m i t t h a t t o d a te fr o m i n c e p t io n o f th is m a tt e r, i n o t h e r w o r d s w h e n th e C o m m i s s io n f ir s t c o n t a c te d y o u , ti ll t o d a y, t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n fr a n k a n d h o n e s t t e s ti m o n y to th is Commission? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Ye s . I s th e r e a n y a s p e c t o f y o u r te s ti m o n y t o d a t e s a v e fo r w h e r e y o u h a v e b e l a b o u r e d u n d e r t h e m is c o n c e p ti o n f o r e x a m p l e w i t h t h e c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n t a n t a n d b u s i n e s s th a t y o u w e r e o b li g a te d t o c o m p ly w i t h t h e c o d e w h ic h y o u w e r e n ’ t , is th e r e a n y o t h e r in s t a n c e w h e r e y o u b e li e v e t h a t y o u r t e s t i m o n y h a s n o t b e e n fr a n k a n d honest. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: No. S o y o u b e li e v e t h a t y o u h a v e c o m p l ie d w it h t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f S e c t i o n 2 0 4 o f t h e C r i m i n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Ye s . D o y o u b e l ie v e t h a t t h e p r o te c t i o n a ffo r d e d b y 2 0 4 s h o u ld b e a ff o r d e d to y o u u n d e r th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Ye s . O k a y, i s t h e r e a n y r e a s o n y o u b e li e v e t h a t t h e 2 0 4 p r o t e c t io n s h o u l d n ’ t b e a ff o r d e d t o y o u ? Page 176 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : No. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: M r N a t a s e n le t ’s t h e n m o v e o n to – w e h a v e d e a lt w it h y o u r k n o w l e d g e a s r e g a r d s t h e u n l a w f u l n e s s o f th e f u n d s , w e h a v e d e a l t w i th th e v a li d it y a n d e n f o r c e a b ili t y o f th e 2 0 4 , a n d w e h a v e d e a lt w i th t h e i n c o n s is te n c i e s a n d y o u r h o n e s t a n d fr a n k t e s ti m o n y, o k a y, w h i c h i s a s I s a i d e a r l i e r t h e t h r u s t o f th e a t t a c k o r a p p r o a c h t a k e n b y t h e C o m m is s i o n i n i ts l in e o f q u e s ti o n i n g , t h a t’s w h e r e th e y w e r e a t t e m p ti n g t o g e t . T h e p r o b l e m f o r t h e C o m m i s s io n t h u s f a r t h o u g h , i f I m a y s u b m i t , a n d I a m n o t g o i n g to m a k e it y o u r s u b m i s s io n , 10 is t h a t t h e r e i s n ’ t a n y h a r d a n d f a s t e v i d e n c e w h ic h m a k e s y o u c o m p lic i t i n a n y o f t h e a l le g e d c r i m i n a l a c tiv i ti e s o f w h ic h y o u a r e accused, right. Yo u w e r e u n w i t ti n g l y t h e v ic t i m , o r N e o w a s u n w i tt i n g ly th e v ic ti m o f m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g a c tiv i ti e s , w o u l d y o u a g r e e w i t h t h a t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: W it h w h a t w e k n o w n o w y e s . I d o n ’t w a n t t o p u t w o r d s in t o y o u r m o u th b u t t h is is t h e t e s ti m o n y t h a t h a s b e e n g iv e n to d a y. Yo u w i ll a g r e e w it h that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Ye s . O k a y a t th e t i m e o f r e c e iv in g t h e f u n d s y o u h a d n o k n o w l e d g e t h a t t h e f u n d s w e r e u n l a w f u l o r th a t t h e y c o m e f r o m a S ta t e o r g a n i s a t io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : D e f in i te ly n o t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: H a d y o u k n o w n w h a t w o u ld y o u h a v e d o n e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I w o u l d n ’ t f o l lo w e d t h r o u g h o n a n y o f t h a t Page 177 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 tr a n s a c ti o n h a d I k n o w n th a t i t w a s f r o m a S t a te E n t e r p r is e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: W o u l d y o u h a v e b r o u g h t i t to M r v a n W y k ’s a tt e n ti o n i m m e d ia t e l y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Ye s . O k a y w e r e y o u s u r p r i s e d b y M s T l a t s a n a ’s o r i g in a l a ffi d a v it i m p l ic a ti n g y o u ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll I w a s a w a r e o f t h e 2 0 4 a lr e a d y s o a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e – a t th e p o i n t o f th e 2 0 4 i s w h e n I w a s a w a r e t h a t t h e f u n d s w e r e n o t f r o m a – w e ll t h a t i t c a m e f r o m a G o v e r n m e n t 10 d e p a r t m e n t. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: W e r e y o u s u r p r i s e d th a t M s T la t s a n a h a d c o m e o n r e c o r d a n d a c c u s e d y o u o f b e i n g i n v o lv e d i n th e s e a c tiv i ti e s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l I w a s n ’ t a w a r e o f Tl a ts a n a ’s n a m e u n t il Yu d e e l a p p r o a c h e d m e f o r t h e 2 0 4 , b e fo r e t h a t I w a s ju s t a w a r e t h a t v a n W y k h a d a p a r t n e r a n d I w a s a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a d is p u t e w i th t h e p a r t n e r t h a t h e w a s g o i n g to r e tr i e v e t h e c o n tr o l o f t h e b a n k accounts. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: F o r t h e r e c o r d y o u h a d n o d ir e c t d e a l i n g s w i t h Tl a ts a n a ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I n e v e r h e a r d t h e n a m e T l a t s a n a u n ti l m u c h la t e r. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d f o r t h e r e c o r d t h e r e w a s n o in v o ic in g a c ti v i ti e s b e t w e e n K o r o n e k a a n d N e o ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: D e f in i te ly n o t . O k a y, h a d t h e r e b e e n i n v o i c e s I t h in k w o u ld Page 178 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 y o u r i n te r n a l a c c o u n ti n g s t a ff h a v e r a is e d i t w i th y o u ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll Br ia n w o r k e d c l o s e l y w i t h t h e m b u t fr o m w h a t I u n d e r s ta n d t h e r e s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a n y i n v o ic e s , b e c a u s e t h is w a s n o t r e l a te d t o a n i n v o i c e b a s e d tr a n s a c ti o n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o y o u s t a n d b y y o u r a d v ic e s i n th e 2 0 4 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d j u s t t o g o b a c k t o y o u r p o in t o n th e s u p p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h e s t a te m e n t s a s t h i n g s p r o g r e s s e d th r o u g h t o w h e r e th e y a r e n o w, a t e a c h a n d e v e r y s t a g e a l l o f y o u r a ff id a v i ts w e r e 10 d e p o s e d t o o n t h e b a s is t h a t i n f o r m a t io n c o n t a i n e d i n th o s e s t a te m e n ts w a s t o th e b e s t o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e a n d b e li e f a t t h e ti m e o f m a k in g t h o s e s t a te m e n t s c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a t ’s r i g h t. O k a y. W h a t d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d b y to t h e b e s t o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e a n d b e li e f a t t h e t i m e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t is w h a t I k n o w a s e i t h e r th e f a c ts o r w h a t I c a n d r a w i n fe r e n c e s o n a s e x is ti n g a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: D o e s t h a t k n o w l e d g e a n d b e li e f c h a n g e a t a ll a t a n y ti m e ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , n o t a r o u n d t h e s o u r c e o f fu n d s d e f i n i t e ly not. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: N o b u t I ’ m s a y i n g in t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e v a r io u s s ta t e m e n ts a s t h e y p r o g r e s s e d y o u r k n o w l e d g e a n d b e l ie f , I ’ m a s s u m i n g i t c h a n g e d a s c i r c u ms t a n c e s .. .( i n te r v e n ti o n ) M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll a s m o r e i n fo r m a t i o n c o m e s t o li g h t w e Page 179 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h e n o b v i o u s ly s u p p l e m e n te d th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o i f t h e r e w e r e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s c o n d u c t e d , i f m e e ti n g s t r a n s p ir e d , i f c o n v e r s a t i o n s w e r e h a d w i t h th ir d p a r ti e s , l ik e M r Yu d e e l , w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n w i th y o u r l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s b a s e d o n t h o s e i n t e r a c t io n s y o u r s t a te m e n ts c o u l d h a v e c h a n g e d o v e r ti m e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Okay so where one says when one deposes t o a n a ff i d a v i t o n t h e b a s is th a t to t h e b e s t o f y o u r k n o w le d g e a n d b e li e f th e fa c t s t h e r e i n c o n t a i n e d a r e c o r r e c t , tr u e a n d c o r r e c t . 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t ’s r ig h t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Is it c o r r e c t th a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g is b a s e d o n y o u r k n o w l e d g e a n d b e li e f a t t h a t ti m e o f m a k i n g a s ta t e m e n t, w h a t ’s in t h a t s t a te m e n t i s c o r r e c t , b u t t h a t i t c a n c h a n g e o v e r t i m e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. Mr Natasen if we can move on to the r e c e i p t o f t h e s e f u n d s fr o m Mr v a n W y k a n d th e d u e d i li g e n c e th a t w a s conducted by you. personal N o w I s u s p e c t , b u t I a m n o t g o in g t o m a k e i t m y s u b m is s i o n , but I suspect that part of th e c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n ts a n d b u s in e s s r e la t e s t o t h e h i g h s ta n d a r d t h a t w a s 20 e x p e c te d o f y o u b y th e C o m m i s s i o n w h e n a c c e p t i n g t h e s e f u n d s f r o m Mr van Wyk because much was made of the fact that your due d i li g e n c e , i f I c a n p u t it th a t w a y, o n M r v a n W y k w a s l e s s th a n w o u l d h a v e b e e n e x p e c t e d b y t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d t h e r e w a s a r g u m e n t m a d e o r q u e s ti o n s t h a t w e r e p u t t o y o u r e g a r d i n g th e fa c t th a t M r v a n W y k m e n ti o n e d t h a t h e d id n o t w is h t o h a v e a li fe s ty l e a u d i t a n d i n f a c t th e Page 180 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 in q u ir y a c t u a l ly w e n t a r o u n d i n c ir c le s fo r q u i te s o m e t i m e o n t h is v e r y p o i n t , a n d I ju s t w a n t t o c l a r i fy i t b e c a u s e i t ’s o b v io u s ly h i g h ly m a t e r i a l t o w h e t h e r y o u o u g h t to h a v e k n o w n a s t h e P O C A l e g i s l a ti o n r e q u ir e s t h a t th e p r o c e e d s w e r e fr o m a n u n l a w fu l s o u r c e . S o l e t ’s j u s t , a s m y c o ll e a g u e li k e s t o s a y, l e t ’s ju s t u n p a c k t h is a l i tt l e . L e t ’s s t a r t w i t h t h e r e q u ir e m e n t f o r li f e s ty le a u d i ts . Ar e li fe s ty l e a u d it s a r e g u l a r o c c u r r e n c e in t h e p u b lic s e c t o r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : My u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t t h e y a r e , e s p e c i a l ly o n S t a te O w n e d E n t it i e s . 10 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d w h a t w o u l d y o u b e li e v e t h e r e a s o n fo r t h a t to b e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t is to i d e n t if y w h e t h e r t h e r e ’s s o u r c e s o f in c o m e th a t a r e – t h a t o b v i o u s ly fr o m S t a te m o n i e s t h a t m a y h a v e e n d e d u p i n t h e h a n d s o f o ffic i a ls . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : S o i t i s n o t u n t o w a r d fo r a S t a t e o ffic i a l in a n y c a p a c i ty t o h a v e a li f e s ty le a u d i t c o n d u c t e d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o i t i s n o t u n u s u a l , I s a w t h e m a s a r e g u la r occurrence. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d t h e r e d o e s n ’ t h a v e t o b e s u s p ic i o n o f a n y 20 u n l a w f u l n e s s , it ’s o f te n d o n e o n th e b a s is t h a t it is p r a c tic e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d M r N a ta s e n i n t e r m s o f S A R S y o u m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r A D R a n d m o n e y a n d t h e fa c t t h a t y o u h a v e h a d t o deal with SARS on various occasions, as far as you are aware does S A R S c o n d u c t l i fe s ty l e a u d i t s ? Page 181 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is th a t t h e y d o lo o k a t y o u r a s s e t b a s e a n d y o u r l if e s t y l e a g a i n s t th e i n c o m e y o u ’r e d e c l a r i n g . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Is n ’ t i t a l m o s t c o m m o n p r a c tic e fo r li f e s ty le a u d it s t o b e c o n d u c t e d e v e r y ti m e t h e r e i s a n a u d i t o f a t a x p a y e r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I th in k t h e y r e c o n c i le t h e a s s e ts , o r t h e m o v e m e n t i n a s s e ts to . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: So why then do you believe that the C o m m i s s i o n is s o f o c u s e d o n t h e i s s u e o f l i fe s t y l e a u d i t w h e n y o u m e n ti o n i n p a s s in g M r v a n W y k h a d s a id h e d i d n ’ t r e a l ly w a n t a li f e s ty le 10 a u d it , w h y d o y o u th in k th a t t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l t e a m f o c u s e d o n that issue so much? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : My u n d e r s t a n d i n g a t th e t i m e w a s t h a t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o , n o , I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h a t is h e l p f u l, y o u n e e d t o a s k h i m a q u e s t io n w ill f o c u s o n c l a r i fy i n g w h a te v e r a n s w e r h e m a y h a v e g i v e n , i n r e g a r d to t h a t q u e s t i o n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Th a n k y o u C h a ir. D o y o u b e li e v e t h a t i t w a s y o u r o b l ig a ti o n a s a b u s i n e s s m a n , n o t a c h a r te r e d a c c o u n t a n t, b e c a u s e y o u w e r e n ’ t c o n d u c t in g y o u r s e lf a s a c h a r t e r e d a c c o u n ta n t in 20 b u s i n e s s o r o th e r w is e w i t h i n N e o , y o u w e r e s i m p ly a d ir e c t o r a n d a s h a r e h o l d e r a n d a s y o u s a id q u i t e h e a v il y i n v o lv e d i n p r o j e c ts a n d a b u s i n e s s o p p o r tu n it y h a d a r is e n w i t h Mr v a n W y k d o y o u t h i n k y o u w e r e o b li g a te d i n t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s t o i n te r r o g a t e h i m o n h i s c o m m e n t in p a s s i n g r e g a r d i n g l if e s t y l e a u d i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I f e l t i t w a s a r e g u la r o c c u r r e n c e s o h e Page 182 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 m e n ti o n e d i t in p a s s i n g , th a t ’s w h y I d i d n ’t ta k e i t f u r t h e r, i t w a s n ’ t a s p e c i f ic fo r e n s ic a u d it t h a t w a s b e in g c o n d u c t e d a g a i n s t h i m fr o m m y u n d e r s t a n d in g . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d a m I c o r r e c t if I r e m e m b e r y o u r t e s ti m o n y t h e l if e s t y l e a u d i t c o m m e n t m a d e i n p a s s i n g w a s i n r e l a t i o n to th e f a c t t h a t t h e r e a s o n fo r h i m w a n ti n g t o p a y t h e fu n d s t o N e o w a s t h a t h e d i d n ’ t w a n t a li f e s ty le a u d i t o n h is p e r s o n a l a c c o u n ts a n d a ff a ir s , is t h a t correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th e y w o u l d – i f t h e r e w a s 10 a r e g u l a r l i fe s ty l e a u d i t t h e n th is w a s i n c o m e t h a t h e w a s d e r iv in g fr o m p r i v a t e b u s in e s s a n d h e w a s a lr e a d y p la n n i n g to l e a v e S A E x p r e s s anyway so he felt h e d id n ’t w a n t i t a c c r u i n g t o h i m a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : S o y o u s a w u n to w a r d a b o u t t h e c o m m e n t t h a t he made in passing? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W i th r e g a r d s t o th e li f e s ty l e a u d i t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , I r e li e d o n th e u n d e r ta k i n g s t h a t h e g a v e m e t h a t i t w a s d e fi n it e ly n o t S t a te m o n e y. 20 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Ye s , w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t s u b m is s i o n to s a y t h a t n o o n e w a n ts a l i fe s t y l e a u d i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a , t h a t ’s a f a ir c o m m e n t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W h y d o y o u t h i n k it ’s a fa ir c o m m e n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : E v e r y o n e b e li e v e s th a t a l if e s t y l e a u d i t o f s o m e s o r t w il l lo o k t o fi n d t o f in d s o m e th i n g a t s o m e p o i n t in ti m e , s o b y Page 183 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 n a t u r e i t is a n e g a t iv e th i n g , i t’s l ik e h a v i n g t o c o ll e c t o n in s u r a n c e o r pay insurance. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: C o r r e c t , o k a y a n d g iv e n th e fa c t t h a t t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s g o i n g t o b e tr a n s fe r r e d . D i d y o u b e l i e v e t h a t th a t i n it s e l f w a r r a n te d fu r t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o t a t a l l , I m e a n t h e fo u n d i n g d e a l w a s g o in g t o b e o b v io u s ly m u c h b i g g e r t h a n th a t a n d h e w a s a c tu a lly s h o w i n g c r e d i b ili t y, h e a l w a y s p u r p o r te d h e w a s a s u c c e s s fu l b u s i n e s s m a n b e f o r e h e w e n t t o S A Ex p r e s s , th a t h e c a m e fr o m p r i v a t e s e c t o r fir s t , 10 s o I h a d n o q u e s ti o n th a t h e h a d th e m o n e y a n d th e a s s e ts to b e a b l e t o c o m e u p w it h h i s s h a r e o f t h e m o n e y t o i n v e s t in t h e f a r m i n g enterprise. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : M r N a t a s e n is N e o a a c c o u n t a b l e i n s t it u ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: In t e r m s o f t h e r e le v a n t l e g is l a t i o n , F I C A le g i s l a ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o d e fi n it e ly n o t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Ar e y o u a n a c c o u n ta b l e p e r s o n in t e r m s o f t h a t le g i s l a ti o n ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o d e fi n it e ly n o t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A r e y o u a n a c c o u n ta b l e p e r s o n i n te r ms o f t h a t le g i s l a ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: M r N a t a s e n I a m g o i n g to p u t a n u m b e r o f r e q u ir e m e n t s to y o u , n o t r e a l ly r e q u ir e m e n ts , I a m g o i n g t o r u n o ff a lis t Page 184 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 o f a c c o u n t a b l e o r g a n i s a t io n s o r i n s ti t u ti o n s p e r t h e l e g is l a t i o n a n d I a m g o i n g t o a s k w h e th e r N e o o r y o u r s e l f , b e c a u s e i t r e f e r s t o p e r s o n o r o r g a n i s a t io n , f a l ls w i th i n a n y o f th e s e c a t e g o r i e s , a n d I j u s t w a n t y o u t o s a y y e s o r n o . A p r a c ti t io n e r w h o p r a c t ic e s a s d e fi n e d in S e c t io n 1 o f the Attorneys Act? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y, a B o a r d o f Ex e c u t o r s o r tr u s t c o m p a n y o r o th e r p e r s o n t h a t in v e s ts , k e e p s i n s a f e i n c u s t o d y, c o n tr o ls o r a d m i n is te r s tr u s t p r o p e r ty w i t h i n th e m e a n i n g o f th e Tr u s t Pr o p e r t y 10 C o n tr o l A c t. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n E s t a t e A g e n t a s d e f i n e d i n th e E s ta t e A g e n t s ( i n d is t in c t ) M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n a u t h o r is e d u s e r o f e x c h a n g e a s d e fi n e d in t h e S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s A c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A m a n a g e r r e g is t e r e d in te r ms o f t h e C o ll e c t iv e I n v e s t m e n t S c h e m e s C o n tr o l A c t ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A p e r s o n w h o c a r r ie s o n th e b u s i n e s s o f a b a n k a s d e f i n e d i n th e B a n k s A c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A m u t u a l b a n k a s d e fi n e d i n t h e M u t u a l B a n k s A c t? Page 185 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A p e r s o n w h o c a r r i e s o n lo n g - te r m i n s u r a n c e b u s i n e s s d e f in e d a s L o n g - t e r m I n s u r a n c e A c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A p e r s o n w h o c a r r ie s o n t h e b u s i n e s s o f m a k i n g a v a il a b l e g a m b li n g a c tiv i ty a s c o n t e m p l a t e d i n S e c ti o n 3 o f t h e N a t io n a l G a m b li n g L e g is la t io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 10 A p e r s o n w h o c a r r ie s o n t h e b u s i n e s s o f d e a li n g in f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A p e r s o n w h o c a r r ie s o n t h e b u s i n e s s o f le n d i n g m o n e y a g a in s t s e c u r i ty o f s e c u r i ti e s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A p e r s o n w h o c a r r ie s o n t h e b u s i n e s s o f fi n a n c i a l s e r v i c e p r o v id e r r e q u ir i n g a u t h o r is a ti o n i n t e r m s o f t h e Fi n a n c i a l A d v is o r y a n d I n te r m e d i a r y S e r v ic e s Ac t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 20 A p e r s o n w h o i s s u e s , s e l ls o r r e d e e m s tr a v e l le r s c h e q u e s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: P o s t b a n k r e f e r r e d to i n S e c t io n 5 1 o f t h e Postal Services Act. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h e I t h a b a D e v e l o p m e n t Fi n a n c e C o r p o r t io n Page 186 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 Limited? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A p e r s o n w h o c a r r ie s o n th e b u s i n e s s o f a m o n e y r e m it t e r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y, s o y o u d o n ’t a s e i t h e r a p e r s o n o r o r g a n i s a t io n , N e o b e i n g a n o r g a n is a ti o n , f a l l w i t h i n th e a m b i t o f t h e A c t a s a c c o u n t a b l e i n s ti t u ti o n , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . 10 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o is t h e r e a n y o b li g a ti o n y o u k n o w o f t h a t r e q u ir e s y o u a s a b u s in e s s p e r s o n e n t e r in g i n t o a b u s in e s s r e l a te d tr a n s a c ti o n w i t h a th ir d p a r ty a t a r m ’s l e n g th to i d e n t i fy a n d v e r i fy th e tr a n s a c ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o th a t I a m a w a r e o f . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y, s o I m e a n w o u l d y o u a g r e e t h a t n o b u s i n e s s i n t h is c o u n tr y c o u l d r e a l ly b e c o n d u c t e d i f e v e r y s i n g le ti m e money exchanged hands for purposes of a p o t e n ti a l business tr a n s a c ti o n i f th e r e w a s a r e q u i r e m e n t t o i d e n ti fy a n d v e r i fy a n d e ffe c tiv e l y F I C A t h e p a r t y y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i t h , w o u ld y o u a g r e e w it h 20 that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a , I th i n k i t w o u l d b e a .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I n t h e c o n te x t o f t h a t d o y o u b e l ie v e t h a t y o u t o o k r e a s o n a b l e s t e p s in y o u r d u e d ili g e n c e , in v e s ti g a t io n o f M r v a n Wyk? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e I b e l ie v e I d i d . Page 187 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e y o u d id . H e w a s a fr i e n d of yours? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y, y o u w e r e a w a r e o f h is b a c k g r o u n d b a s e d o n w h a t h e h a d in f o r m e d y o u o f ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Yo u tr u s t e d h i m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s h e w a s a s I s a i d h e w a s – I d r o p p e d m y g u a r d b e f o r e h e w a s a fr i e n d . 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Ye s , d i d y o u h a v e a n y r e a s o n n o t t o tr u s t h i m Mr Natasen? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : No there was nothing that came across that w o u ld le a d m e t o q u e s t io n th a t h e h a s d o n e a n y t h i n g w r o n g . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : N o th ir d p a r t y s a i d s o m e t h i n g t o y o u a b o u t M r v a n W y k a n d s a i d y o u ’v e g o t to b e c a r e f u l o f t h i s m a n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : N o , a n y c ir c u m s t a n c e s t h a t o c c u r r e d t h a t g a v e r is e t o a n y c o n c e r n w h a ts o e v e r o n y o u r p a r t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h e f a c t th a t h e w a s i n v o lv e d i n S t a t e e m p l o y m e n t , th e fa c t t h a t h e w a s a n e m p lo y e e o f th e S t a te ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t ’s w h y m y c o n c e r n c a m e a b o u t fo r h i m t o g iv e u n d e r t a k i n g s th a t i t w a s n o t m o n e y fr o m t h e S t a t e . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a t w a s t h e o n ly c o n c e r n y o u h a d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t w a s t h e o n l y c o n c e r n . Page 188 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d j u s t a g a i n t e ll u s w h y th a t w a s a c o n c e r n of yours? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O b v io u s ly i f i t w a s S t a t e r e la t e d I w o u ld h a v e n o p a r t o f i t, s o f r o m m y p e r s p e c t iv e h e g a v e u n d e r t a k in g s i t w a s p r i v a t e , h e w a s w a n ti n g to c o m e i n t o f a r m i n g v e n t u r e , h e w a s o b v io u s ly w a n ti n g t o l e a v e S A E x p r e s s , h e to l d u s J u n e 2 0 1 6 w a s th e d a te t h a t h e w a s g o in g to l e a v e , a n d th a t ’s w h a t I w o r k e d o ff . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o y o u h a d n o r e a s o n w h a ts o e v e r t o b e l ie v e t h a t th e r e w a s a n y th i n g u n t o w a r d w i t h r e g a r d s t o Mr v a n W y k o r h i s 10 p r o p o s i ti o n t h a t h e e n t e r in t o a f a r m i n g v e n t u r e w i t h y o u a n d t h a t h e c a p i t a l is e N e o S o l u ti o n s f o r t h a t p u r p o s e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e r e w a s n o n e a t t h e ti m e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: And when I say Neo I mean obviously there w a s g o in g to b e a n i n c o r p o r a te d e n t it y c a l l e d t h e S t a l th a t w a s g o i n g to b e s e t u f o r t h e v e n t u r e o n c e i t m a t e r i a l is e d a s I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r t e s ti m o n y, b u t u n t il t h e n i t w a s c a p i ta li s a t i o n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t ’s r ig h t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d t h e r e w a s m a s s c o n f u s io n a b o u t t h i s m o r n in g a b o u t t h e a p p l ic a ti o n o f th e 3 0 0 0 0 0 a n d h o w i t h a d b e e n d e a l t 20 w i t h i n t h e b a n k i n g a c c o u n ts , a n d l e t ’s j u s t r e v is it t h a t q u ic k ly b e c a u s e it r e a l ly i s n ’ t c o m p l ic a te d , s o I j u s t w a n t to s e t th e r e c o r d s tr a i g h t . Yo u h a d s o l d t h e v e h i c l e 1 . 4 m il li o n i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly, w a s f in a n c e d a n d t h e o th e r 3 0 0 w a s p a i d i n c a s h ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Yo u w e r e s i t ti n g w i t h R 3 0 0 0 0 0 in y o u r s a f e a t Page 189 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 home, correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: And that Mr van Wyk had asked for those m o n i e s t o b e p a i d o u t t o h i m , y o u h a d t h e m a v a il a b l e , y o u p a id t h e m out? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t ’s r ig h t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Why weren’t you concerned by his request for t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 g iv e n t h e f a c t t h a t h e h a d , a s M s H o f m e y r p u t i t, r e q u e s te d r e p a y m e n ts o f c e r ta i n o th e r f u n d s w h ic h h e h a d 10 received why were you not concerned about the R300 000 cash request? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e h a d k n o w n a b o u t h i s p a s s i o n fo r t h e c a r s a n d h e h a d i n d ic a te d p r e v i o u s ly h e w a s i n t e n d in g to b u y a 1 9 8 4 I r e c a ll a t t h e t i m e e a r li e r, s o I a s s u m e d w h e n h e c a l le d m e th a t h e w a s tr y i n g t o p u r c h a s e o r a n e q u iv a l e n t v e h ic le , s o t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 s o r t o f r e s o n a te d in m y h e a d , fr o m e a r l ie r d is c u s s i o n s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : D o e s i t m a t te r w h e t h e r it w a s f o r a v e h ic l e o r n o t , i f h e a s k e d y o u f o r R 3 0 0 0 0 0 a n d y o u w e r e w i ll t o ( i n d is t in c t ) a n d d o e s i t m a t t e r w h a t th e u n d e r l y i n g c a u s a w a s . 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o n o t a t a l l . H e w a s a fr ie n d a s w e l l . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I d o n o t b e l ie v e it d o e s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o I a s s u m e d h e w a s w a n t in g t o b u y i t a n d h e w o u ld o b v io u s ly – I w a s s i t ti n g w i t h f u n d s o f h is a n y w a y th a t h e w a s e n t i tl t e d t o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: J a I g u e s s t h e o n ly r e a s o n t h a t m y l e a r n e d Page 190 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 c o l l e a g u e r a is e d i s s u e w i t h th e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 w a s b e c a u s e i t f o r m e d p a r t o f t h e R 9 . 9 m il li o n u l ti m a t e l y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a t f l o w e d i n to N e o , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I f I d i d n o t h a v e th e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 I w o u l d h a v e t h e n s a id I w o u l d E F T a n o t h e r R 3 0 0 0 0 0 a n d h e w o u ld h a v e t o m a k e a p l a n t o p u r c h a s e th e v e h i c l e h i ms e lf . 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Ye s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u t b e c a u s e it w a s o n h a n d i t w a s g iv e n t o h i m . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d b e c a u s e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 w a s s t il l o u ts ta n d i n g t o him. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O r h is n o m i n a t e d e n ti ty in r e s p e c t o f th e repayment of the R9.9? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. And much has been made about the o v e r d r a f t f a c il i ti e s a n d t h e f a c t th a t – a n d l e t m e j u s t d i v e r t fo r a 20 s e c o n d t h e f a c t th a t t h e r e w a s a p r o v is io n a n d o v e r d r a f t fa c il i ty c o n tr a c t d e a l in g w i t h t h e o b l i g a t io n t o p r o v i d e a u d i t e d f i n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t. Yo u s a i d t h a t t h e b a n k n e v e r a s k e d f o r i t . I t w a s n o t t h e b a n k ’s p r a c ti c e a n d n o w w e k n o w in t e r m s o f t h e r e le v a n t l e g is l a t i o n t h a t i t w a s n o t e v e n n e c e s s a r y. So let us le a v e th a t a s i d e . A n d e v e n i f t h e b a n k h a d a s k e d f o r i t y o u c o u l d s a y t o Page 191 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h e b a n k a c t u a ll y l e t m e q u a li fy n o o b l ig a ti o n is – n o o b li g a t io n e x i s t s o n m e i n l e g is la t io n t o p r o v i d e th e a u d i t e d f in a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s . And w h il s t i t m i g h t b e a p r o v i s i o n o f t h is c o n tr a c t I c o u l d ta k e le g it i m a t e is s u e w i th i t . L e t u s j u s t le a v e t h a t f o r a s e c o n d . I w a n t t o g o b a c k t o t h e o v e r d r a f t fa c il i ty. Much has been made about the R300 000 and h o w M r R u b e n a c c o u n t e d f o r it i n th e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t a t N e o S o lu t io n s a n d t h e f a c t th a t t h e r e is a n o ta t io n o n t h e b a n k i n g a c c o u n t th a t s a y s N e o S o lu t io n lo a n . L e t u s j u s t d e lv e i n t o t h a t a g a in b e c a u s e i t r e a ll y is n o t c o m p li c a t e d b u t t h e r e s e e m s to b e m a s s c o n fu s i o n b e tw e e n l o a n , 10 t h e w o r d l o a n , th e c o n c e p t o f a l ia b ili t y i n t h e fi n a n c i a l s e n s e a n d t h e c o n c e p t o f a lo a n a c c o u n t i n th e f in a n c ia l s e n s e . Do you understand t h a t a l o a n a c c o u n t i s n o t a c tu a l ly a b a n k i n g a c c o u n t Mr N a t a s e n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s , y e s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t i s a g e n e r a l le d g e r [i n d is t in c t ] . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I t i s a c t u a ll y a fi n a n c i a l o b li g a ti o n r a is e d i n t h e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t o f t h e c o m p a n y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 20 O k a y a n d t h a t i t c o u l d e i t h e r b e a d e b i t lo a n account or a credit loan account? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a e i t h e r tw o a r e fr o m t h e a c c o u n t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d y o u u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h e r e a s o n th a t Mr R u b e n i n h is w is d o m w h i c h w e n o w k n o w w a s a c tu a lly fr a u d u l e n t c o n d u c t i n h is w is d o m d e c id e d to a p p l y i t in a w a y h e d i d w a s b e c a u s e in h is m i n d h e w a s a c c o u n ti n g f o r th e m o n e y th a t w a s … Page 192 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e w a s k e e p i n g tr a c k o f th a t r e c o r d . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : H e w a s k e e p i n g tr a c k a n d h e w a n t e d to m a k e s u r e t h a t w h a t e v e r m o n e y w a s in d e b t e d t o Va n W y k o r h is n o m i n e e s w a s r e p a i d i n fu ll ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. S o d o y o u – w e s e e a n y i n c o n s is te n c y in t h e s ta t e m e n t a n d r e f e r e n c e t o t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 , is t h e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t s p a r k s i n c o n s is t e n c y i n y o u r m in d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : N o t h i n g . O k a y. M r N a t a s e n b e f o r e w e l e a v e t h e is s u e o f t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 l e t u s ju s t d e lv e in t o i t a b i t f u r th e r. J u s t f o r t h e s a k e o f m y c o ll e a g u e . B e c a u s e i t w a s a s Mr L o w e n t h a l w h e n w e g e t t o h is a ff id a v i t a b i t l a te r i t w a s a n i n t e r e s t fr e e lo a n . Th is is h o w i t w a s c o r r e c t e d b e c a u s e it w a s th e p r o v i s i o n w a s … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e e n t ir e R 9 .9 m i l li o n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Sorry? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : N o , n o w e ta lk in g a b o u t t h e – j a w e ta lk in g – s o r r y w e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e m o n e y th a t t h e – t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s – t h a t 20 is s t il l to b e p a i d in t e n d e d t o th e r e le v a n t p a r t y i n r e s p e c t o f t h e b e n e f i t received. T h a t w a s a p p l ie d a s a n in t e r e s t fr e e lo a n b u t th e r e a s o n I m e n ti o n i t n o w i s b e c a u s e if w e d e a li n g w i t h a n o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty, t h e lo a n a c c o u n ts , t h e is s u e o f a l o a n a s a li a b il i ty. W e a r e j u s t t r y i n g t o d is t in g u i s h t h e s e c o n c e p ts s o t h a t t h e r e i s n o c o n f u s i o n o n th e p a r t o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m . B u t t h i s i s h o w w e g o t b a c k in t o it M s Page 193 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 H o f m e y r s a i d b u t s h e w a s u s i n g t h e a n a l o g y o f a lo a n f r o m t h e b a n k . A n d s h e s a id b u t n o b a n k w o u ld c h a r g e – w o u l d g iv e y o u a n i n te r e s t fr e e lo a n a n d y o u c o n c e d e d t h a t r i g h t . A n d y o u s a i d b u t th a t w a s v e r y d i ff e r e n t b e c a u s e t h a t i s a l ia b i li t y, t h a t i s a n a c t u a l l o a n a n d th e n I a c t u a ll y ju m p e d u p a n d I s a i d w e ll a c tu a l l y it d e p e n d s o n th e i n te n ti o n w i t h w h ic h th e m o n ie s a r e a d v a n c e d a n d t h e n a t u r e o f t h e m o n i e s s o advanced. T h a t d e t e r m i n e s h o w y o u d e a l w i th i t fr o m a n a c c o u n ti n g p e r s p e c t iv e , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. W e w i ll g e t t o M r L o w e n th a l’s a ffi d a v it s h o r tl y a n d I w il l j u s t t a k e y o u t h r o u g h th o s e p r o v is i o n s a g a i n a n d w e w i ll d e c i d e w h a t – w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e a c c o u n ti n g fo r t h o s e m o n ie s h a s b e e n d o n e c o r r e c t ly b e c a u s e I k n o w t h a t w a s in t h e la s t p a r t o f t h e e x a m in a ti o n in c h i e f t h a t w a s a la r g e p a r t o f t h e d i s c r e p a n c y th a t w a s raised. S o w e d e a l t w i t h th e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 . Again the causa for the R 3 0 0 0 0 0 r e a l ly is o f n o c o n s e q u e n c e . M r Va n W y k a s k e d y o u f o r th e R300 000. M o n i e s w e r e s t il l d u e t o h i m a n d y o u p a i d i t o u t o f y o u r personal funds and …. C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e , p l e a s e d o n o t m a k e a s p e e c h t o t h e w i tn e s s 20 p u t q u e s t i o n s t o th e w i t n e s s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : C h a ir I a m e n t i tl e d w i t h a ll d u e r e s p e c t . I a m e n t i tl e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t e n t i tl e d t o m a k e a s p e e c h . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : N o , n o , n o M r C h a ir I a m n o t m a k in g a s p e e c h I a m e n ti t le d … . Page 194 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e p u t q u e s ti o n s to t h e w i t n e s s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: C h a ir I a m e n t i t le d t o r e i t e r a t e t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s g iv e n t h i s m o r n i n g le a d i n g t o a q u e s ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e n t it l e d t o … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : N o , n o I a m e n t i tl e d t o … CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a r e e n ti tl e d t o d o t h a t – y o u a r e e n t it l e d to d o that. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I a m s o r r y I d i s a g r e e w it h y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e n t it l e d t o d o th a t b u t … 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I d is a g r e e w i th y o u I a m n o t m a k i n g a s p e e c h . Tr u s t m e i f I m a k e a s p e e c h y o u w il l k n o w I a m n o t m a k in g a s p e e c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e – o k a y l e t u s tr y a g a i n . C o n t in u e . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : L e t u s tr y a g a i n M r N a t a s e n . O k a y I a m s o r r y I w a s r e it e r a ti n g t h e e v i d e n c e a lr e a d y g iv e n . I a p o l o g is e . Mr N a t a s e n t h e is s u e o f t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 b e c a u s e I r e a ll y j u s t d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h e is s u e w i t h t h e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 . A m I c o r r e c t i n s a y i n g t h a t R 3 0 0 0 0 0 w a s s ti ll o w i n g t o Mr Va n W y k p u r s u a n t to t h e r e p a y m e n t o f th e R 9 . 9 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S t i ll o w i n g t o Va n W y k n o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A f t e r a d v a n c e o f t h e o th e r m o n ie s ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o w e h a d – h e h a d b e e n p a id 7 b a c k d u r in g D e c e m b e r s o t h e r e w a s s ti ll o n – i n J a n u a r y t h e r e w a s s ti ll R 2 . 9 . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y s o t h e r e w a s s t il l m o n e y o w i n g t o h i m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e r e w a s s ti ll m o n e y y e s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. S o w h e n y o u a d v a n c e d th e R 3 0 0 0 0 0 i t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s y o u s a i d t h i s m o r n i n g b u t I w i ll n o t r e i t e r a te Page 195 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 t h is m o r n in g ’s t e s ti m o n y t h a t m o n e y w a s s ti ll o w i n g t o h i m . Yo u w o u l d a d v a n c e i t p e r s o n a lly fr o m t h e m o n e y t h a t y o u h a d i n y o u r s a f e a n d th a t t h e c o m p a n y w o u l d t h e n a c c o u n t fo r i t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g u n t o w a r d r e g a r d i n g a tr a n s a c ti o n o f th a t n a t u r e in y o u r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : i n m y m in d n o b e c a u s e t h e c o n t r a e n t r y i n th e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t w e n t th r o u g h m y s h a r e h o ld e r lo a n a c c o u n t . S o i t w a s t a k e n o ff w h a t w a s o w i n g t o Va n W y k a n d p u t it in t o m y s i d e . 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I m e a n I o ft e n p a y fo r e x p e n s e s o n b e h a lf o f m y fir m a n d i t g o e s s tr a i g h t t o m y l o a n a c c o u n ts s o I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e is s u e w i t h i t . B u t m a y b e I a m j u s t in c o r r e c t. Mr Natasen the a c c o u n t in g o f t h a t m o n e y a t t h e t i m e w a s d o n e b y w h o m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B y … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h e a c c o u n ti n g fo r t h a t m o n e y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s d o n e b y R u b e n . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : B y R u b e n a n d w h o w a s Mr R u b e n ? L e t u s ju s t u n d e r s t a n d w h o e x a c tl y h e w a s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e w a s t h e i n t e r n a l a c c o u n ta n t a t t h e o ffi c e . 20 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : H e w a s a n a c c o u n ta n t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W a s h e a c o n tr a c t o r o r a n e m p l o y e e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e w a s a n e m p l o y e e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: H e w a s a n e m p lo y e e s o h e w a s u n d e r y o u r d ir e c t c o n tr o l a n d s u p e r v is i o n ? Page 196 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Did you direct and c o n tr o l how he a d m i n is te r e d th e a c c o u n ts ? MR VIVIEN N ATA S E N : No he was w o r k in g with the external a c c o u n t a n ts in te r ms o f th e c h a r t o f a c c o u n ts , h o w t h e tr i a l b a la n c e w a s la i d o u t . B e c a u s e o f p r e v i o u s e r r o r s d u r i n g th e S A R S p r o c e s s th e e n t ir e c h a r t o f a c c o u n ts f o r 2 0 1 5 o n w a r d s w a s t o b e r e m a p p e d t o b e a b l e t o g iv e e ff e c t t o b e t te r b o o k k e e p i n g . S o h e w a s w o r k in g w i th t h e m in t e r m s o f p u t ti n g t h a t t o g e t h e r a n d a c c o u n ti n g f o r th e i n t e r e s t. 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : B u t m y q u e s ti o n t o y o u w a s – m y q u e s ti o n t o y o u w a s d i d h e p e r fo r m h is d u t i e s u n d e r y o u r d i r e c t c o n t r o l a n d supervision? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s h e r e p o r te d t o m e in t h e c o m p a n y. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: B u t d i d y o u g i v e h i m i n s tr u c t io n o n h o w h is a c c o u n t in g f u n c t i o n s h o u l d b e r e n d e r e d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , n o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. S o y o u d i d n o t t e ll h i m R 3 0 0 0 0 0 w a s p a i d b y m e i n c a s h t o M r Va n W y k ’s d r iv e r o r t o M r Va n W y k a n d I w a n t y o u t o a c c o u n t f o r i t i n th e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t o f N e o i n t h e f o l l o w i n g 20 way? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o I s a id t o h i m p le a s e m a k e s u r e y o u m a k e a n o t e o f it s o t h a t w e d o n o t o v e r p a y h i m f r o m t h e 9 .9 b a c k . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H e m u s t ta k e a n o t e t h a t t h i s R 3 0 0 0 0 0 . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : S o y o u w e r e n o t g iv i n g s p e c i fi c d ir e c t io n a s t o Page 197 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 h o w a c c o u n t in g e n tr i e s w e r e m a d e in t h e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t s o f N e o ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , n o , n o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. M r N a ta s e n t h e is s u e o f b e n e f it h a s b e e n b a n d i e d a b o u t b a c k w a r d s a n d f o r w a r d s s i n c e t h i s i n q u ir y s t a r te d . A n d I h a v e e x p l a i n e d i n th e s i m p l e s t o f t e r m s w h y b e n e f i t i s s o i m p o r t a n t t o th e c o m m i s s i o n b e c a u s e t h e y c a n s h o w t h a t y o u h a v e b e n e fi t te d i t w o u ld b e a u s e i n t e r m s o f t h e P o k a l e g is la t io n i f y o u h a v e u s e o f t h e s e il lic i t fu n d s a n d y o u k n e w o r y o u o u g h t to h a v e k n o w n t h a t t h e y w e r e fr o m a n u n l a w f u l s o u r c e t h e n y o u a r e i m m e d i a te ly g u i l ty o f 10 a n o ff e n c e , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: having u t ili s e d the Okay so a lot has been made about you funds that you have r e c e iv e d and a n o th e r m is c o n c e p ti o n t h a t a r o s e t h i s m o r n i n g w a s th e fa c t t h a t b e c a u s e th e f u n d s w e r e i n t e g r a t e d f o r u s e o f a b e t t e r w o r d i n t o t h e o v e r d r a f t fu n d s t h a t th e c o m p a n y i n e ff e c t h a d u s e o f t h o s e f u n d s . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a t is t h e s u b m is s i o n t h a t h a s b e e n m a d e . M r N a t a s e n t o b e c l e a r o n th a t p o i n t w e a g a i n w e n t b a c k t o t h e 20 c o n c e p t s a n d w h i c h a r e c r i tic a l i n t h is is s u e w e ll o f u n l a w fu l p r o c e e d s o r u n l a w f u l f u n d s , s o u r c e o f fu n d s . I n t e n t i o n v e r s u s n a tu r e . O k a y. D id y o u i n te n d f o r t h e f u n d s t o b e u t il is e d a s p a r t o f y o u r c a s h f l o w ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. D i d y o u i n te n d fo r t h o s e f u n d s to s u p p o r t t h e b u s i n e s s o p e r a ti o n s o f N e o S o lu ti o n s ? Page 198 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: D i d y o u i n t e n d f o r th e f u n d i n g to b e s p e c i f ic a l ly i n c o r p o r a t e d in t o t h e o v e r d r a f t f u n d s a s s u p p o s e d t o b e i n g r in g fe n c e d i n a s e p a r a t e a c c o u n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Wa s i t y o u r i n t e n t io n to h a v e a n y u s e o r b e n e fi t fr o m th o s e fu n d s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 10 Do you – you have conceded to the c o m m i s s io n ’s le g a l t e a m t h a t a n d y o u h a v e c o n c e d e d i t in y o u r m o s t r e c e n t s t a t e m e n t s t h a t y o u i n fa c t d id d e r i v e b e n e f i t f r o m t h e f u n d s th a t w e r e r e c e iv e d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. And who advised you that you had r e c e i v e d b e n e fi ts ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k p o s t t h e e a r l i e r t e s ti m o n y w h e n w e s a w t h a t th e d is c u s s i o n o f b e n e fi t w a s c o m i n g a b o u t t h e n w e s a t w it h o u r – b e t w e e n o u r o w n l e g a l t e a m a n d o b v i o u s ly t h e e x te r n a l a d v i s o r L o w e n t h a l is w h e n w e e s ta b l is h e d t h a t t h e r e is a n i n a d v e r te n t b e n e fi t 20 t h a t h a d b e e n d e r iv e d . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n i n d ir e c t b e n e fi t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n in d i r e c t b e n e fi t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o in o t h e r w o r d s i t w a s n o t i n t e n d e d i t w a s something that arose… M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s d e fi n i t e l y n o t i n te n d e d . Page 199 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. S o t h e f u n d s w e r e r e c e i v e d , t h e y w e r e m e a n t t o b e c a p i ta li s e d i n to t h e c o m p a n y fo r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e f a r m in g v e n t u r e , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I n t o a s e p a r a t e c o m p a n y y e s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I n to a s e p a r a te c o m p a n y u l ti m a t e l y b u t in i ti a l ly t h e y w e n t in t o N e o ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. A n d t h e y w e r e – th e r e w a s [ in d is ti n c t ] w i t h th e f u n d s i n th e o v e r d r a ft f a c il i ty, e v e r y t h i n g w a s i n te r t w in e d a n d 10 in t e r m i n g le d a n d a s a r e s u l t t h e i n t e r e s t t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n – w o u l d h a v e a c c r u e d to t h e o v e r d r a f t f a c i li t y. . . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n c u r r e d j a . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Was less than it would have been had those f u n d s n o t b e e n i n t e r m in g le d o r in t e r t w i n e d w it h t h e f u n d s in t h e o v e r d r a f t f a c i li ty ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d t h a t is t h e b e n e f i t t h a t w a s d e r iv e d ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e i n d i r e c t b e n f it . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : B e s i d e s th e b e n e fi ts t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r b e n e f it t h a t m y l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e r a is e d t h is m o r n i n g I t h i n k r e g a r d in g tr a n s a c ti o n a l c h a r g e s a n d . . . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d a s e t u p f e e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S e tu p f e e s th a t is c o r r e c t . Page 200 of 236 O k a y b u t th o s e 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w e r e a l l y o u w o u l d a g r e e u n i n te n d e d b e n e f it s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: And unintended usage? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W h e n y o u – w h e n y o u t o o k th e m o n e y fr o m M r Va n W y k d i d y o u e v e r c o n t e m p la t e t h a t y o u w o u l d u s e t h o s e f o r f u n d i n g t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f N e o ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : F o r th e tr a n s a c ti o n a l c h a r g e s o n t h e a c c o u n t . 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Fo r a n y b e n e fi t w h a ts o e v e r to N e o S o l u ti o n s s a v e f o r t h e u l t i m a t e o n w a r d c a p i ta l i n v e s t m e n t i n D is te ll a n d t h e f a r m in g o p e r a ti o n s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e in t e n t io n w a s t o m o v e i t t o D is t e l l fo r t h e f a r m in g . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. S o i n a c c e p t in g th e f u n d s y o u s a w n o b e n e fi t a t t h e t i m e s a v e fo r t h e f a c t t h a t i t w a s a n a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n y o u a n d M r Va n W y k t h a t th o s e f u n d s w o u l d b e p a id o v e r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . 20 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. L e t u s j u s t d e a l w i th – w e h a v e g o t – w e h a v e – o b v io u s ly t h e r e h a s b e e n s u b s t a n t iv e a m o u n t o f t e s t i m o n y r e g a r d in g h o w t h e f u n d s w e r e p a i d o v e r, t h e w a y t h e y w e r e c h a n n e ll e d , c o n d u it t h r o u g h K o r e n e k a , th e r e p a y m e n t t o B a ts o m i it is a ll a m a t t e r o f r e c o r d a n d I d o n o t a g a i n w a n t t o [ in d is ti n c t ] t h e c o m m is s i o n . B u t l e t u s j u s t f o c u s q u ic k ly o n a n d I a m g o i n g t o g e t t o t h e r e p a y m e n t o f t h e Page 201 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 f u n d s b e c a u s e i t is q u i t e i m p o r ta n t . B u t l e t u s j u s t fo c u s o n a g a i n b e f o r e w e l e a v e t h is p o i n t b e h i n d . T h e k n o w l e d g e y o u h a d w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e s o u r c e o f t h e f u n d s a n d t h e f a c t th a t th e y w e r e il le g a l y o u t e s ti fi e d t h is m o r n i n g t h a t d u r i n g M a y y o u h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n w it h M r Va n W y k h e h a d p h o n e d y o u a n d … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I n M a y 2 0 1 8 . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: May 2018 sorry and you had recorded the c o n v e r s a ti o n is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Yo u a r e e n t i tl e d t o r e c o r d t h e c o n v e r s a t io n i n t e r m s o f th e R i g a L e g is la t io n y e s , n o . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s I fe l t I d id it w a s to c o r r o b o r a t e t h a t t h e f a c t t h a t I d i d n o t . .. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Yo u w e r e a p a r t y t o t h e c o n v e r s a t io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Th e r e f o r e i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 5 o f t h e R ik a le g i s l a ti o n y o u a r e e n ti tl e d t o r e c o r d i t , c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : S o t h e r e is n o t h i n g u n to w a r d a b o u t t h a t . A n d 20 w h y d id y o u r e c o r d i t j u s t fo r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e t e n e s s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I h a d n o t e n g a g e d w i t h Va n W y k s i n c e l a t e o r m i d t o l a t e 2 0 1 7 s o – a n d b y t h e n I h a d a l r e a d y is s u e d t h e S e c t io n 2 0 4 t h r o u g h J u d i e l s o t h e f a c t t h a t h e c a ll e d m e o u t o f t h e b l u e I h a d j u s t la n d e d b a c k i n J o h a n n e s b u r g f r o m a tr ip . H e c a ll e d m e a s I w a s o n th e b u s b e in g fe r r i e d fr o m t h e p l a n e t o th e t e r m i n a l s o I t o l d h i m I w o u l d Page 202 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 c a l l h i m b a c k fr o m t h e c a r. When I got into the car I recorded the c o n v e r s a ti o n fr o m m y s e c o n d p h o n e w h i ls t t h e c o n v e r s a t io n w a s o n m y speaker phone. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: C h a i r w e d i d d is c u s s t h i s m o r n i n g t h e p o s s i b il it y o f p la y i n g t h e r e c o r d i n g t h a t M r N a ta s e n t o o k o f h is c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h M r Va n W y k i t is c r i tic a l. I t is c r it ic a l to w h e t h e r o r n o t M r N a ta s e n h a d k n o w l e d g e o f t h e u n l a w f u l n e s s o f t h e f u n d s o r th e source of the funds. S o i f y o u w o u l d in d u l g e m e C h a ir. W e h a v e a lr e a d y m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts w i t h y o u r – w i t h y o u r v is u a l s t a ff to … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g i s i t – d u r a t io n ? A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I t is t e n m i n u te s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is fi n e . M s H o f m e y r y o u k n o w a b o u t i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s a f u l l tr a n s c r i p t o f i t in t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e i s a tr a n s c r ip t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I u n d e r s t a n d M r Pi e n a a r t o w a n t t o p l a y it 20 a n d I h a v e n o o b j e c ti o n i f h e ta k e s t e n m in u te s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h e n t h a t is i n o r d e r. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h e r e is c e r t a i n n u a n c e s t h a t a r e l o s t i f o n e ju s t r e a d s t h e tr a n s c r i p ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I t is s o m u c h b e t t e r to a c t u a ll y li s te n to it . Page 203 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is f in e . CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u – d o y o u p r o p o s e th a t w e l is te n to it u n t il i t fi n i s h e s o r d o y o u p r o p o s e to s t o p i n b e tw e e n ? A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : C h a ir s h o u ld w e lis t e n u n t il i t is f i n is h e d a n d then maybe take a break? C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e . J a . J a t h a t is fi n e . [ R E C O R D I N G B E I N G P L AY E D ] A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : C h a ir i t i s f iv e to f o u r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I f y o u i n d u l g e m e f o r fi v e m o r e m i n u t e s I c a n fi n i s h t h i s a s p e c t o ff? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s if y o u – i f y o u w i ll b e a b le t o f i n is h th a t a s p e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : J u s t a fe w q u e s t i o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is f in e l e t u s f i n is h t h a t a s p e c t. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: M r N a t a s e n i f I g o to t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t w e h a v e j u s t h e a r d w i t h M r Va n W y k a n d y o u r s e l f w h ic h a p p e a r s a t V N 2 3 8 . 1 7 4 a n d w e g o t o a n d y o u w i ll s e e th e r e is 20 p a r a g r a p h n u m b e r i n g o n t h e s i d e a n d w e g o t o p a r a g r a p h 1 0 . Yo u s a y : T h e n h e s a id h e w a n t e d a s t a t e m e n t fr o m m e b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e t h e y w e r e g o i n g to c h a r g e m e . S o I s a i d b u t j a e v e r y t h i n g – s o r r y b u t I d id e v e r y t h i n g c le a n ly a n d I w a s to l d b y y o u t h a t i t w a s [ i n d is ti n c t ] c l e a n . O k a y s o y o u s a y th a t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s I d i d . Page 204 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A g a in a t p a r a g r a p h o n t h e n e x t p a g e , c o n ti n u a ti o n o f p a r a g r a p h 2 0 . S o l e t u s j u s t r e a d fr o m t h e b o t to m . B u t t h is tr a n s a c ti o n w a s n o t r e l a t e d t o S A E x p r e s s w a s i t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Th a t i s w h a t y o u s a y. M r Va n W y k r e s p o n d s n o , n o , n o , n o , n o . B u t le t m e t e ll y o u w h a t t h e p r o b l e m is n o w. T h e n h e g o e s o n t o s a y y o u r n a m e m ig h t b e a p p e a r in g i n a n a r t ic le . T h e n a g a in at paragraph 20 on the same page. I t h o u g h t it w a s a N o r t h W e s t p r o j e c t i t w a s n o t a S A E x p r e s s Pr o je c t r i g h t? M r Va n W y k : N o I d o n o t 10 – I do not know what Jan and this wom an have cooked up. So Mr N a t a s e n th is is e v i d e n c e in t h e s t r o n g e s t s e n s e c o r r o b o r a ti n g y o u r a s s e r t io n s t h a t a t a l l t i m e s y o u w e r e fu ll y a w a r e th e – f u l ly u n a w a r e o f t h e i ll e g a li t y o f t h e s e f u n d s t h a t y o u w e r e r e c e iv i n g fr o m Mr B r i a n Va n W y k t h a t h a d b e e n r o u t e d t h r o u g h K o r e n e k a , c o r r e c t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a h e h a d m a d e o b v i o u s ly b e f o r e t h i s a t t h e ti m e h e h a d m a d e s e v e r a l u n d e r t a k i n g s th a t i t w a s d e fi n i t e l y n o t g o v e r n m e n t m o n e y a n d t h is g o e s b a c k t o w a r d s – o b v i o u s l y i n th is c o n v e r s a ti o n I h a d t o g e t h i m t o a d m i t t h a t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W a s th is a s o li c i t e d p h o n e c a l l? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o n o t a t a l l . H e h a d c a ll e d m e a c t u a l ly. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W a s th is p l a n n e d in a n y w a y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: H a d y o u d i s c u s s e d th e s c r i p ti n g o f t h is p a r t ic u l a r d i s c u s s io n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : D e fi n i t e l y n o t . Page 205 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I t d o e s n o t a p p e a r s o b e c a u s e it w a s v e r y p o o r s c r i p ti n g i f i t i s b u t – s o y o u – h e p h o n e d y o u , y o u a n s w e r e d t h e c a ll y o u s a i d I w i ll p h o n e y o u b a c k . Yo u r e c o r d e d t h e c o n v e r s a t io n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : P h o n e y o u b a c k w h e n I a m i n t h e c a r. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d t h is i s a tr a n s c r i p t o f w h a t tr a n s p ir e d . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d fr o m t h i s t r a n s c r i p t i t is a b u n d a n tly e v i d e n t t h a t y o u h a d n o k n o w l e d g e o f th e f a c t th a t t h e s o u r c e – t h e s o u r c e o f th e fu n d s w a s e i t h e r S A E x p r e s s o r th a t t h e f u n d s h a d a n y 10 ill e g a l s o u r c e w h a ts o e v e r. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. C h a ir I t h i n k I a m g o i n g t o l e a v e i t t h e r e a n d th e n w e c a n g e t o n t o t h e r e s t o f t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a r e y o u a b le t o g iv e s o m e i n d i c a t io n o f h o w m u c h m o r e ti m e y o u n e e d ? A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h e o n ly o t h e r th in g I r e a l ly w a n t t o d e a l w i t h C h a ir is t h e a ff id a v i t o f Mr L o w e n t h a l a n d t h e n v e r y b r i e fl y j u s t t h e t w o a ffi d a v i ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : B y th e tw o e m p l o y e e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d Mr N a t a s e n b u t t h a t w ill b e v e r y b r i e f . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: So I would say I am hoping to do it in the next h o u r. Page 206 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y n o th a t is fi n e . adjournment of ten minutes. L e t u s ta k e t h e – a n W e w ill r e s u m e a t t e n p a s t f o u r. We adjourn. R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES: C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s p r o c e e d . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o r r y C h a ir. I w o u l d j u s t l ik e to r e f e r Mr Natasen to … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n p u t o n y o u r s a s w e ll M r N a t a s e n , ja . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I w o u l d j u s t li k e to r e fe r M r N a t a s e n t o t h e a ffi d a v i t o f H o w a r d A n d r e w L o w e n t h a l ( ? ) . I t is V N 2 - 3 - 8 . 2 - 7 - 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h - w h ic h b u n d l e a g a i n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : B u n d l e A . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is A . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : It is t h e a ff id a v i t b u n d le . I t i s r i g h t a t t h e b a c k of A. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is E X H I B I T ( i n te r v e n e s ) . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . A t th e b a c k o f A , o k a y. Ye s , t h a n k y o u . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: M r N a t a s e n y o u t e s ti f ie d e a r l i e r t h a t N e o h a d e x p o s t f a c t o t h e la s t a t t e n d a n c e a t t h e C o m m i s s io n o f I n q u ir y a p p o i n t e d M r L o w e n t h a l . J u s t t a k e u s t h r o u g h th a t a p p o i n t m e n t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : So he was - he is an independent expert that w a s r e c o m m e n d e d b y t h e le g a l te a m . I h a v e h a d n o i n t e r a c t io n w it h Page 207 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 h i m b e fo r e . H e is n o a fr i e n d , a n a s s o c ia t e i n o t h e r w a y. H e i s a tr u l y in d e p e n d e n t p e r s o n t h a t h a s b e e n b r o u g h t o n - b o a r d j u s t t o h e l p m e fir s tly w i t h t h e r e c o n s t r u c ti o n a n d s e c o n d ly w i t h t h e m a n d a t e a r o u n d a c c o u n t in g fo r th e m o n i e s a n d t h i r d ly r e l a t in g t o t h e is s u e o f m y r o l e a s a C h a r te r e d Ac c o u n ta n t i n B u s in e s s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: M r N a t a s e n m u c h h a s b e e n m a d e o f th e f a c t t h a t c e r ta i n p e r s o n s w i th w h o m y o u h a v e h a d d e a li n g s w i t h h a d b e e n r e m u n e r a t e d f o r t h e ir s e r v ic e s s u c h a s Mr J u d i e l f o r h i s tr a v e l expenditure 10 and a n c il la r y expenditure and M r L o w e n th a l fo r th e p r o d u c t io n o f t h i s e x p e r t r e p o r t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. W h a t i n f e r e n c e d o y o u d r a w b y t h a t li n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I - I assume they are q u e s ti o n i n g th e in d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e p a r ti e s t h a t w e r e i n v o lv e d a t th is p o i n t a s in d e p e n d e n t e x p e r ts . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: T h a t is h o w I u n d e r s to o d i t a s w e l l . Do you b e li e v e th a t Mr L o w e n th a l is c o m p le t e l y i n d e p e n d e n t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I b e li e v e h e is . 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. D o y o u b e l ie v e th a t h e i s s k i ll e d a n d e x p e r i e n c e d e n o u g h t o h a n d le t h e m a n d a t e th a t w a s g iv e n t o h i m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : F r o m t h e c r e d e n ti a ls p r e s e n te d t o m e y e s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d f r o m y o u r d e a l in g s w i t h h i m ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Fr o m my d e a l i n g s h e h a s b e e n p r o fe s s io n a l a n d h e s e e m s t o b e g e t t in g t o t h e g r i p s o f t h e i s s u e s v e r y q u i c k l y. Page 208 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Is h e v e r y k n o w le d g e a b l e … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a . H e is k n o w l e d g e a b l e … ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: As an accountant? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I n t h e r e a c ti o n s I h a v e h a d h e a p p e a r s k n o w l e d g e a b le . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. W h a t w a s t h e m a n d a te t h a t w a s g iv e n to Mr Lowenthal? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Once again to i n te r - a s s is t with th e r e c o n s tr u c ti o n o f t h e b o o k s . W e f u r th e r - i n it i a l ly i t w a s j u s t o v e r t h e 10 y e a r s e ffe c te d b y t h e s e tr a n s a c t io n s b u t w e f o u n d t h a t i n o r d e r to r e c o n s tr u c t t h e b o o k s w e h a d t o g o a ll t h e w a y b a c k t o t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 4 w h ic h is t h e l a s t S A R S a u d i t e d y e a r a n d r e b u il d fr o m th e n o n w a r d . S o h is - h is s c o p e h a s b e e n i n c r e a s e d t o c o v e r 2 0 1 5 - y e a r e n d 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 and 2017. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: D i d Mr L o w e n th a l h a v e d i ff ic u l ti e s in f u l fi ll i n g h is m a n d a t e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o t th a t I a m a w a r e o f . O b v i o u s ly t h e c o ll a ti o n o f d a t a a n d s e c u r i n g o f d o c u m e n ts is o b v i o u s ly a n is s u e b u t i t is p a r t o f h is f in d i n g s r e a l ly. 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: But what were the real issues there? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H m . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Just take us through them. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t a p p e a r s w h e n w e - f ir s tl y th e - i n t e r m s o f t h e fi n a n c i a l r e c o r d s o f 2 0 1 6 t h e y h a d t o b e to t a l ly r e b u i l t fr o m s c r a tc h because Pastel had been overwritten. Page 209 of 236 So we - we have been 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 r e c a p t u r in g - s o w h a t h e d i d a t t h e s t a r t o f h is m a n d a t e w a s h e a c tu a lly o p e n e d u p n e w P a s t e l le d g e r s a n d th e n g u i d e d th e a c c o u n t i n g t e a m n o w o n t h e c h a r t o f a c c o u n ts t h a t w a s t o b e c r e a t e d a s w e l l a s t h e c a p tu r i n g p r o c e s s . W h e r e t h e r e i s u n c e r ta i n t y t h e y p o s t to a s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t a n d th e n h e r e v i e w s th e s u s p e n s e a c c o u n t w h e n th e d o c u m e n ts c o m e a n d t h e n a l lo c a t e s th a t t o t h e a p p r o p r i a t e a c c o u n t i n t h e r e c o n s tr u c ti o n process. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 10 paragraph 7 where M r N a t a s e n if I c a n r e f e r y o u s p e c i fi c a ll y t o M r L o w e n th a l c o n fir m s h is mandate s p e c i f ic a l ly. I t is o n p a g e 2 … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O f h is a ffi d a v it . Yo u c a n j u s t r e a d t h a t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : “ To i n v e s t ig a t e h o w 9 .9 m il li o n h a d fl o w n in in t o t w o s e p a r a te tr a n c h e s o f f i v e m il li o n a n d 4 . 9 m il li o n o n t h e 11 t h a n d 1 2 N o v e m b e r fr o m a c o m p a n y K o r e n e k a Tr a d in g a n d P r o j e c t s to N e o S o lu t io n s N e d b a n k a c c o u n t a n d s u b s e q u e n t ly p a i d o u t i n fiv e tr a n c h e s fo u r m i ll i o n , t h r e e m i lli o n w i t h 20 r e s p e c ti v e d a t e s a n d a f u r th e r 1 . 4 m i ll io n a n d 1 . 2 m il li o n w h ic h p a i d o u t i n M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . ” H e g o e s o n fu r t h e r : “ To r e f l e c t t h e p a y m e n t s to B a ts a m a i I n v e s t m e n t Holding were a c c o u n te d fo r in the a c c o u n ti n g r e c o r d s o f N e o S o l u t i o n s a n d to r e a ll o c a te s u c h Page 210 of 236 - 7.3 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 fl o w s i f a p p r o p r i a te t o c o r r e c tly n o m i n a t e d le d g e r a c c o u n t s a n d t o a c c o u n t f o r t h e m fo r t h e f u r th e r fi f t h tr a n c h e b e i n g a fu r t h e r R 3 0 0 0 0 0 t h a t w a s p a i d o u t i n c a s h a c c o r d i n g to M r N a ta s e n t o a d r iv e r o f Va n W y k . ” ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. So besides the fact that he had to u n d e r t a k e a r e c o n s tr u c ti o n o f N e o ’s fi n a n c ia ls s e v e r a l y e a r s b a c k d a t i n g 2018. I n a d d i ti o n t o t h a t m o r e s p e c i f ic a l ly h e w a s t a s k e d w i t h a n in q u ir y i n t o th e r e c e i p t o f t h e 9 .9 m i lli o n fr o m K o r e n e k a a n d h o w t h a t 10 w a s d e a l t w i t h i n t h e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t a t N e o a n d th e n h e a s f u r t h e r t a s k e d if I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t ly a n d y o u c a n c o r r e c t m e i f a n y o f t h is is wrong. H e w a s f u r t h e r t a s k e d w i t h th e c o r r e c ti o n o f t h o s e e n tr i e s t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t th e y w e r e i n c o r r e c t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll w e n e e d to c r e a t e fi n a n c i a l r e c o r d s h o w t o s u b m i t t o S A R S b e c a u s e o b v i o u s ly t h o s e fi n a n c i a l y e a r s n o w n e e d to b e p u t in . S o th a t i s p a r t o f h i s s c o p e a n d m a n d a t e is t o ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a t is p a r t o f i t b u t s p e c i f ic a l ly h e w a s a s k e d b e c a u s e o b v i o u s l y y o u w e r e in t e r r o g a t e d i n … 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Ex a m i n a t io n i n c h ie f o n t h e 9 . 9 a n d h o w i t w a s accounted for on the books of account at Neo? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t , y e s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y a n d - a n d m u c h w a s m a d e o n 1 2 J u ly o f t h e f a c t t h a t th e r e w e r e v a r io u s i n c o n s i s t e n c i e s i n t h e f i n a n c i a ls a s Page 211 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w e ll . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d - a n d y o u d id s a y o n s e v e r a l o c c a s i o n s t h a t th e - i t a p p e a r e d t h a t t h e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t w e r e i n c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h e fi n a n c i a ls w e r e i n c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . Es p e c ia ll y a r o u n d th e d o n a t i o n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: E s p e c i a l ly around th e d o n a ti o n s and n o t w i t h s t a n d in g o u r v o c i f e r o u s p l e a s th a t n o f u r th e r e x a m in a ti o n s h o u l d 10 t a k e p la c e o n t h e f in a n c ia ls th e i n q u ir y c o n ti n u e d . D i d i t n o t? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y a n d i t w a s f o r t h a t r e a s o n th a t y o u f e l t i t in c u m b e n t t o a p p o i n t M r L o w e n t h a l t o a t t e n d t o t h e r e c o n s t r u c t i o n , t h e id e n t i fic a t io n o f th e v a r i o u s s o u r c e d o c u m e n t s , t h e a p p lic a ti o n o f th o s e s o u r c e d o c u m e n ts t o t h e - th e b o o k s o f p r i m e e n t r y, t h e r e c o n c i li a ti o n s t h a t w e r e n e e d e d , t h e a d j u s t m e n ts th a t m a y h a v e b e e n n e e d e d e tc e te r a t o b r in g t h e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t in t o - i n to o r d e r ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. D o y o u t h i n k h e f u l fi ll e d h is m a n d a t e ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll t h e r e c o n s tr u c t io n is s t il l u n d e r w a y b u t in t e r m s o f a c c o u n ti n g fo r t h e m o n ie s h e h a s d o n e t h a t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: He has done that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d w h e r e h e s a y s it is m o s t ly a c c u r a te w o u l d y o u a g r e e w it h t h a t s u b m is s io n b y h i m ? Page 212 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d h o w d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d m o s tly a c c u r a t e ? W h a t is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g ? I k n o w y o u h a v e d e a l t w it h t h is b e f o r e t o d a y b u t if I c a n j u s t g e t y o u t o r e v i s i t th a t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is th a t s p e c i fi c a ll y o n t h e - o n t h e fl o w o f m o n ie s t h o s e a r e a c c u r a te ly r e c o r d e d n o w b u t i n t e r m s o f o b v io u s ly t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 h e h a s r e l i e d o n m y r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t h e w a s p a id . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Okay but he can - he can - he does not have 10 a c t u a l p r o o f t h a t i t w a s p a i d b e c a u s e i t w a s a c a s h t r a n s a c t io n … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : B u t h e r e li e s o n t h e f a c t th a t y o u … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t i s my a s s e r t io n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: J a , y o u r a s s e r ti o n . Yo u p a id t h o s e m o n ie s back … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d h e is p o s t e d t h e jo u r n a l a c c o r d i n g t o … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d t h e y p o s t - h e h a s p o s t e d th e j o u r n a l in t o t h e N e o a c c o u n ts . O k a y. J u s t o n t h a t s c o r e l e t u s ju m p f o r w a r d a n d g o t o t h e r e le v a n t p a r a g r a p h w h e r e h e d e a l s w i t h t h e a p p l ic a t i o n o f t h e 20 3 0 0 0 0 0 . M y a p o l o g i e s . I a m j u s t s tr u g g l i n g t o f in d i t . T h is c l e a n c o p y w a s g iv e n t o m e b y m y le g a l t e a m a n d I h a d s c r a t c h e d a n d m a r k e d o n mine. I a m n o w s t r u g g l in g to f in d t h e p r o v is io n - s p e c i f ic p r o v i s i o n . A n y w a y I c a n - I c a n f r o m m e m o r y p u t to y o u th a t th e w a y i t w a s d e a lt w i t h t h a t i t w a s d e a lt w i t h a s a n i n te r e s t lo a n i n t h e l o a n a c c o u n t o f - o f Page 213 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 y o u r s e l f a n d N e o S o lu t io n s ( in t e r v e n e s ) . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I s i t C la u s e 1 4 ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Yo u a r e lo o k in g fo r C l a u s e 1 4 ? A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Is it 1 4 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : H is fi n d i n g s r e l a t i n g t o th e m o n e y. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Ye s , s o r r y. Yo u a r e r i g h t. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is t h a t ? ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 10 T h a t is - C h a ir t h a t is p a g e 6 o f 11 a n d i t i s paragraph 14. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 2 - 3 - 8 .2 - 7 - 9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h a t is p a g in a t e d p a g e 2 - 3 - 8 . 2 - 7 .9 ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: It says: “ A c c o r d i n g ly I i n s tr u c t e d t h e a c c o u n t in g s t a ff o f N e o S o lu t io n s t o r e f le c t t h e m o n i e s b e in g th e 9 .9 f u n d s h e l d o n i n t e r e s t fr e e lo a n a c c o u n t fr o m Va n W y k 20 a n d b e i n g r e c o r d e d a s a l ia b il it y in th e l o a n l e d g e r a c c o u n t d u e t o th e f a c t th a t th e m o n ie s d o n o t b e l o n g to N e o S o lu t io n s . ” S o w h a t M r L o w e n t h a l w a s d o i n g th e r e h e w a s a c c o u n t in g f o r t h e 9 . 9 i n t h e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t o f N e o S o l u t i o n s b e c a u s e if I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c tl y a n d j u s t c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g p l e a s e w h e n t h e Page 214 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 monies were c a p i t a l is e d into Neo which were i n te n d e d for th e ( in d is ti n c t) u lt i m a t e ly a n d t h e - a n d t h e c a p i ta li s a t io n o f t h a t c o m p a n y f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h e f a r m i n g v e n tu r e . I t w a s n o t p r o p e r ly r e c o r d e d i n th e b o o k s o f a c c o u n t o f N e o is that correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t w a s p o s t e d t o m y s h a r e h o ld e r lo a n a c c o u n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h y t h a t i s w r o n g a n d t h a t is … 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A t l e a s t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u r a is e d o n t h e 1 2 t h . Yo u s a i d y o u w e r e n o t s u r e w h y it h a d b e e n p o s te d t o y o u r lo a n account. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Okay but now we understand that M r L o w e n t h a l is a n i n d e p e n d e n t C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t h a s a s s e s s e d the books of account. H e h a s a s s e s s e d th a t p a r ti c u l a r r e c e i p ti n g o f f u n d s . H e h a s l o o k e d a t t h e i n t e n t o f t h o s e fu n d s - s o r r y t h e i n te n t w i t h w h ic h t h o s e f u n d s w e r e p a i d o v e r a s w e ll a s t h e n a tu r e o f th o s e f u n d s 20 a n d h e is c o n c l u d e d th a t th e a p p l ic a ti o n o f t h o s e fu n d s s h o u ld b e d e a l t w i t h i n t h e fo ll o w i n g w a y. N a m e ly i n t e r e s t fr e e lo a n a c c o u n t a n d r e c o r d e r s li a b i li ty i n t h e lo a n l e d g e r. C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. Yo u a ls o t e s ti f ie d o n t h e 1 2 t h a n d in a ll Page 215 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 y o u r s ta t e m e n ts a n d I w a n t t o d e a l w i t h t h is i n a n a ll e g a t io n o f in c o n s is t e n c y a s w e l l th a t y o u r e c e i v e d n o - N e o S o l u t i o n s r e c e iv e d a b s o l u t e ly n o b e n e f i t w h a ts o e v e r fr o m t h e r e c e i p t o f t h o s e - t h o s e f u n d s fr o m M r Va n W y k w h ic h w e r e c o n d u i t e d t h r o u g h K o r e n e k a . I n r e tr o s p e c t g iv e n t h a t y o u r t e s ti m o n y w a s t h a t y o u h a d r e c e i v e d n o b e n e fi t . I s t h a t s ti ll c o r r e c t ? T h a t s u b m is s i o n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll w e - w e o b v io u s ly n o w h a v e f o u n d t h a t t h e r e w a s a n i n d ir e c t b e n e fi t t h r o u g h t h e i n t e r e s t s a v i n g a g a in s t th e overdraft. 10 So that is the response where we have now tendered to o b v i o u s l y p a y s u c h i n t e r e s t b a c k t o th e a ff e c t e d s t a te in s ti t u t i o n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. S o o n c e - o n c e y o u a r e to l d w h o t h a t m o n e y s h o u ld b e p a i d b a c k to y o u a r e w i ll i n g t o p a y t h a t m o n e y b a c k ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d o n c e th a t m o n e y h a s p a i d b a c k d o y o u b e li e v e t h a t y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d a n y b e n e fi t o f a n y n a t u r e w h a ts o e v e r s a v e fo r m a y b e c h a r g e s o n t h e a c c o u n t t h a t w e r e u n i n te n d e d . D o y o u b e li e v e th a t y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d a n y b e n e fi t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : N o n e w h a ts o e v e r ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t is e v e n s t a t e d i n t h e r e c o r d i n g w e d id n o t d is p u te . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Correct. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t w e d i d n o t b e n e f i t. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. S o i f y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d n o b e n e fi t a n d y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f th e u n l a w fu l s o u r c e o f t h e f u n d s w h y w o u l d y o u Page 216 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 h a v e p a r tic i p a t e d i n t h i s t r a n s a c t io n i n th e fir s t p la c e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e in t e n ti o n w a s to g o i n to b u s in e s s a n d t h e f a r m in g v e n t u r e s p e c i f ic a l ly. S o w e o n ly p a r t ic ip a t e d t o - t o th e e x t e n t t h a t t h i s w a s h is s h a r e o f t h e m o n i e s t o c o m e i n t o - i n v e s t i n t o t h e f a r m in g v e n t u r e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: R i g h t a n d th e f a r m in g v e n t u r e w a s a r e a l tr a n s a c ti o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a . T h e r e i s - t h e r e i s b u s i n e s s p l a n s . T h e r e is a n e m a i l e m a n a ti n g fr o m h i m w h e r e h e r e v i e w e d t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n s . 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : C o r r e c t . C a n w e ( in t e r v e n e s ) ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : S o h e w a s d i r e c t ly - I w a s n o t e v e n o n t h e p r o j e c t s p e c i f ic a l ly my s e l f . H e w o r k e d w i t h t h a t - w i th Vi ll a a n d th e r e s t o f t h e t e a m i n d e v e l o p i n g t h a t b u s in e s s p la n t o g iv e e ffe c t to th e c o m p a n y. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: C o r r e c t a n d t h e r e is a r e c o r d w h ic h w e h a v e g iv e n t h e C o m m i s s io n o f a l l t h e - a l l t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n s u r r o u n d i n g t h e f a r m in g v e n t u r e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t. The marketing v a l u a t io n s , the b u s i n e s s p l a n s a n d s o o n h a v e b e e n s u b mi t t e d a s p a r t o f th e 20 ( in t e r v e n e s ) . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: e x i s te d . O k a y. S o t h i s w a s a l e g i ti m a t e v e n t u r e t h a t T h i s w a s n o t a f a b r i c a t io n o f y o u r i m a g i n a t io n . This was a le g i t i m a te v e n tu r e . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: That you intended Page 217 of 236 in v e s t i n g in with 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M r Va n W y k ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d th e 9 . 9 w a s h is f in a n c i a l c o n tr ib u ti o n t o t h a t tr a n s a c t i o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l - w e l l i t w a s 1 0 m i ll io n e a c h t h a t h a d to g o ( in t e r v e n e s ) . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I n i ti a lly b u t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n m o r e - t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n m o r e ( in t e r v e n e s ) . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e n th e r e w a s t h e l o a n t o b e s e c u r e d y e s . 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : M r N a t a s e n i n fu r t h e r a n c e o f t h e l e g i ti m a c y o f t h a t tr a n s a c t io n . I a m g o i n g to r e fe r y o u t o t h e a ffi d a v it s o f K u m l a ( ? ) C a d d e s i ( ? ) a n d J e r o m e J o n e s a r e tw o e m p lo y e e s t h a t w o r k f o r y o u . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W h a t c a p a c it y a r e th e y e m p lo y e d i n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : K u m la i s m y P - p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t a n d J e r o m e is i n t h e a c c o u n ti n g u n it . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d h o w lo n g h a v e t h e y w o r k e d f o r y o u r e s p e c ti v e ly ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : K u m l a s i n c e - I t h i n k - 2 0 0 6 o r s e v e n . J e r o m e s in c e 2 0 11 . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Okay and they salaried employees? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. M r N a t a s e n t e ll m e i n t h e ir a ff i d a v i ts - I d o n o t w a n t t o s i t a n d r e a d t h e w h o l e a ffi d a v i t b u t e ffe c t iv e l y t h e y Page 218 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 m e n ti o n t h e fa r m i n g b u s i n e s s tr a n s a c t i o n a n d t h e y m e n t io n t h a t t h e y h a v e v a r i o u s i n t e r a c t io n s w i t h M r Va n W y k a r o u n d t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s t h a t is r i g h t. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k C h a i r j u s t to g i v e c o n te x t. I am very r a r e l y a t t h e o ff ic e . I a m n o r m a l ly o u t i n t h e f ie l d o n p r o j e c ts . S o t h e in t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n Va n W y k , th e a c c o u n ti n g u n i t , t h e t e a m o n h a n d i f h e n e e d e d a v e h ic l e to g o a n d i n s p e c t t h e f a r m a n d s o h e w o u l d g e t i t is s u e d f r o m t h e c o m p a n y a n d th e y w o u l d ju s t g e t a p p r o v a l f o r i t in 10 a c c o r d a n c e w i t h o u r p o l ic y. S o a lo t o f t h e i n te r a c t io n o n th e d a y t o d a y b a s is if h e w a s in t h e o ffi c e it w o u l d h a v e b e e n v i a t h e p e r s o n n e l t h a t w a s o n h a n d . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d y o u a s k e d t h e m t o c o n f ir m b y w a y o f d e p o s in g tw o a ffi d a v i ts in r e s p e c t o f t h o s e in t e r a c ti o n s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t , y e s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. S o i s t h e r e a n y r e a s o n fo r t h e s e t w o e m p l o y e e s to li e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o n o t a t a l l . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 20 A n y r e a s o n f o r t h e m t o f a b r i c a t e th e w h o l e tr a n s a c ti o n o r t h e f a r m i n g v e n tu r e a n d M r Va n W y k ’s i n v e s t m e n t a n d …? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o n o t a t a l l . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. S o I m e a n f o r a ll i n te n ts a n d p u r p o s e s Mr Natasen th is was a l e g i t i m a te tr a n s a c ti o n that you i n te n d e d in v e s t i n g i n a n d M r Va n W y k i n d i c a t e d th a t h e h a d s o m e i n t e r e s t . Th a t Page 219 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 h e w o u ld lik e to i n v e s t a s w e l l a n d t h a t h e h a d f u n d s t h a t w e r e d u e t o h i m f r o m s o m e o r o t h e r tr a n s a c ti o n w h i c h y o u s k ir ti n g ly in q u ir e d . Yo u a s k e d a s m a n y q u e s ti o n s a s y o u th o u g h t w e r e r e l e v a n t a n d n e c e s s a r y i n t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s a n d h e t h e n p a i d t h a t m o n e y o v e r a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d a s p a r t o f h i m in v e s ti n g i n t h is t r a n s a c t io n w i t h y o u . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t y e s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y a n d t h a t is w h a t y o u r s t a ff b e li e v e d . T h a t i s w h a t y o u b e li e v e d . 10 O k a y. T h a t i s w h a t t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n shows. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A l l th e d o c u m e n t a t i o n s u p p o r t s th a t . O k a y. S o t h e r e i s n o r e a s o n t o b e li e v e t h a t t h is w a s a s is t h e c a s e i n m a n y corrupt a c tiv i ti e s i n v o lv i n g money la u n d e r i n g , m a la d m i n i s t r a t io n , u t il is i n g s ta t e f u n d s , s t a t e c a p t u r e . c o r r u p ti o n , M o s t o f th o s e tr a n s a c ti o n s e n t it i e s a n d b u s i n e s s e s a r e s e t u p a s a fr o n t . O k a y. Is that one of these cases? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : D e fi n i t e l y n o t a n d I d i d in d ic a te i n - o n - i n m y p r e v i o u s te s t i m o n y I a l s o t o o k c o m f o r t fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t h e d i d n o t a s k 20 f o r t h e m o n e y b a c k s tr a i g h ta w a y. T h e r e w a s a f u ll m o n t h t h a t la p s e d b e f o r e h e r e q u e s te d t h e f u n d s f o r a n d i t s o u n d e d l ik e a g e n u i n e t h i n g . H e h a d m e n ti o n e d t o m e p r e v i o u s ly t h a t h e w a s tr y in g t o s e c u r e a p r o p e r ty i n B lu e Va ll e y a n d t h i s - w h e n h e m e n ti o n e d th a t h e w a n te d t h e f u n d s f o r th a t . I d i d n o t s e e a n y th i n g w r o n g w i th i t b u t fr o m w h a t w e h a v e Page 220 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 s e e n s o f a r e v e n o n t h e K o r e n e k a tr a n s a c ti o n s t h e m o n e y f lo w s h a p p e n e d a l m o s t i m m e d i a te ly t o o t h e r c o n d u it s a n d i t w a s g iv e n b a c k t o h i m a s q u ic k ly a s p o s s i b l e . T h is w a s n o t th e c a s e w i th u s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. L e t u s j u s t l e a v e th a t p o i n t f o r th e moment and just quickly go to paragraph 15 and we - there is a d is c u s s io n i n M r L o w e n t h a l’s a ffi d a v i t o r t h e c o n te n t in th a t a ffi d a v i t d e a li n g w i th R u b e n w h o w a s a s y o u h a v e t e s ti fi e d . He was your in t e r n a l a c c o u n t a n t . H e w a s a s a la r i e d e m p l o y e e . H e w a s t a s k e d w i t h th e h a n d l i n g o f th e in t e r n a l a c c o u n ts 10 u n d e r y o u r o v e r a l l d ir e c ti o n a n d c o n t r o l b u t t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t a d v i s e h i m a s t o h o w t h e s p e c if ic a c c o u n ti n g e n t r ie s w o u ld ta k e p l a c e . I s t h a t correct? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Yo u g a v e h i m c o n tr o l o f t h e a c c o u n ts a n d h e w o u ld o v e r s e e y o u r a c c o u n ts s t a ff. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a t is r i g h t b e c a u s e I w a s r a r e ly in t h e o ffic e he would - he would manage of them. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. M r L o w e n t h a l a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 s a y s : “ F u r t h e r t o t h e a b o v e d u r i n g th e r e c o n s t r u c t io n o f 20 t h e a c c o u n t in g r e c o r d s a n d p e r u s a l o f t h e s o u r c e d o c u m e n t a ti o n o f N e o S o l u ti o n s it c a m e t o m y a tt e n ti o n that Ruben had a p p a r e n tly m is a p p r o p r ia t e d f u n d s b e l o n g to N e o S o lu t io n s w h ic h th e b o o k k e e p e r o f N e o S o l u ti o n s a n d m y s e l f c a l c u l a te d i t to b e i n t h e a m o u n t o f a p p r o x i m a t e ly Page 221 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 R 7 4 6 6 8 9 - a n d s o m e c e n ts . ” Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ja. T h i s t h e c u r r e n t n u m b e r. Chair we id e n t i fi e d th is fr o m w h e r e h e h a d a lt e r e d t h e b e n e fi c i a r y p a y e e d e t a i ls t o h is o w n b a n k a c c o u n t . S o th e r e p o r t t h a t c a m e fr o m t h e b a n k w a s a ll p a y m e n t s m a d e t o th a t s p e c i f ic b a n k a c c o u n t b e c a u s e i t is d i ff ic u l t i n t h e s ta n d a r d r e p o r ti n g s y s te m w e h a v e t o b e a b l e t o d r a w o u t t h e payee. I t is o n ly lis t e d a s t h e p a y e e d e ta il s b u t n o t t h e a c t u a l b a n k 10 a c c o u n t . S o th e r e w a s a s p e c ia l r e p o r t t h a t c a m e f r o m t h e b a n k w h e r e w e i d e n ti f ie d s o fa r t h e s e . W e a r e s t il l n o w s e a r c h i n g f o r w h e r e h e h a s a l t e r e d o r c o u l d h a v e a l t e r e d to p a y to o t h e r b e n e fic i a r y b a n k a c c o u n t d e t a i ls . T h a t m i g h t t h e n i n c r e a s e th is n u m b e r. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : J a . M r N a ta s e n i t is n o t u n s u r p r is i n g th e n t h a t t h e a c c o u n t s w e r e i n a s t a t e o f d is a r r a y. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s , y e s . I t h i n k fr o m w h a t w e s e e n o w ( in t e r v e n e s ) . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Do - do you suspect that Mr Ruben had m a n i p u l a te d t h e a c c o u n t s i n o r d e r to p o t e n ti a l ly h i d e h is fr a u d ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h in k fr o m - fr o m lo o k i n g a t t h e a c c o u n t in g r e c o r d s a n d t h e l a c k o r t h e m is s i n g d o c u m e n ts t h a t a r e th e r e w e h a v e c le a r ly been sabotaged by him to cover u p a ll t h e s e - these m is a p p r o p r ia t io n s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: D o y o u in t e n d ta k i n g l e g a l a c t io n a g a in s t Mr Ruben? Page 222 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a . W e - w e o b v i o u s ly h a v e g o t th is d o c u m e n t w i t h a l l - w i th a ll t h e d ir e c t o n e s w h e r e h e h a s c h a n g e d i t h i ms e lf . A s w e i d e n ti fy m o r e - b u t w e a r e o b v i o u s l y i n s ti t u ti n g a - a c r i m i n a l c a s e n o w. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : J a . 2 3 a n d 2 4 o f M r L o w e n t h a l ’s a ff id a v i t v e r y q u ic k ly. “ I n li g h t o f t h e f a c t th a t N e o S o l u ti o n s is a p r i v a t e c o m p a n y t h e u n a u d i t e d a n n u a l fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n ts a r e d r a f te d m a in ly f o r t h e a t t e n t io n a n d u s e o f t h e 10 s o l e D ir e c to r a n d s o le s h a r e h o l d e r b o t h M r N a t a s e n a n d a r e n o t i n t e n d e d t o b e r e li e d u p o n b y t h i r d parties such as creditors. A c c o r d i n g ly t h e a n n u a l fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts are not c o m p il e d and to used a u d i te d reflect the and are inaccurate fi n a n c i a l p o s i ti o n a n d r e s u l t o f o p e r a ti o n s o f N e o S o lu t io n s in t e r n a ll y p e r io d i c a ll y. ” Much was made again of the fact that you had signed the fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts a n d t h a t y o u w e r e a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t i n B u s i n e s s a n d h o w c o u ld y o u h a v e s i g n e d th e m w i t h o u t k n o w i n g 20 u n e q u iv o c a l ly t h a t e v e r y f i g u r e s t a t e d in t h o s e f in a n c i a ls - fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts w e r e c o r r e c t . C o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t , y e s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Yo u s a i d y o u r e li e d o n M a n n i e a s t h e a c c o u n ts fir m t h a t y o u h a d a p p o i n te d f o r th e p r o d u c ti o n o f th e s e a c c o u n ti n g s t a te m e n ts . C o r r e c t? Page 223 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s r i g h t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W h a t w a s y o u r m a n d a te t o M a n n ie ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e m a n d a te a s I s a i d h a d - i t h a d b e e n r a is e d o n w h a t h a p p e n e d w i th t h e S A R S p r o c e s s o n t h e A D R w h e r e h e h a d g iv e n m e u n d e r ta k i n g s t h a t h e w o u l d b e t h e w a t c h d o g o f e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e b o o k s a r e c o r r e c t g o i n g f o r w a r d e s p e c i a lly w i t h r e g a r d t o fu r t h e r S A R S s u b m is s io n s in t h e n e w f in a n c i a l y e a r s . S o c l e a r ly i n th e w a y h e is n o w p u t h is a ff i d a v i t t o g e t h e r h e is n o w r e n e g i n g o n t h a t - o n t h a t r e s p o n s i b i l it y h e t o o k o n . S o i t w a s f a r 10 m o r e t h a n j u s t t a k in g t h e n u m b e r s th a t E u g e n e o r R u b e n h a d g iv e n h i m a n d j u s t p u t ti n g it i n to a s e t o f f in a n c ia l s . H e w a s t o i n t e r r o g a t e th e b o o k s m u c h d e e p e r t h a n th a t a n d h e d i d n o t d o t h a t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d h e d i d n o t d o th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A n d h e d i d n o t d o t h a t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : S o h e - M a n n i e a c t u a ll y b r e a c h e d i ts m a n d a t e to Neo? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. E v i d e n c e h a s b e e n le d r e g a r d i n g t h e a ffi d a v i ts f il e d o r t h e s t a t e m e n ts f il e d b y M r P a t e l o n b e h a l f o f M a n n ie 20 d e a li n g w i t h t h e A n n e x u r e G w h i c h i s y o u r t e x t m e s s a g e . We have d e a lt w i t h th a t t h i s m o r n i n g . I d o n o t i n t e n d r e v is i ti n g i t . I t h i n k y o u g a v e i t t h e n e c e s s a r y c o n t e x t a n d i n te r p r e t a t i o n w h ic h w a s r e q u ir e d b u t t h e f a c t r e m a i n s t h a t M a n n i e b r e a c h e d t h e i r m a n d a t e to N e o . T h e n a t t h e 11 t h h o u r a f te r r e c e iv i n g a s u m m o n s fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h ic h t e r m in a t e d t h e ir m a n d a t e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 224 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. Did they g iv e you reasons for t e r m in a ti n g t h e m a n d a t e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: No. D i d t h e y e n g a g e w i t h y o u i n p o te n ti a lly r e i n v i g o r a ti n g t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p a n d c o m i n g t o y o u r a s s is t a n c e to r e c ti fy t h e - t h e is s u e s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e y d i d tr y. Th e y c u r r e n tl y p e r f o r m f o r o t h e r m a n d a t e s f o r o t h e r e n t it i e s th a t I a m a s h a r e h o ld e r a n d D ir e c to r o f . S o 10 t h e y a p p r o a c h e d u s v ia t h e - t h a t e n t i ty t o a s k i f t h e y c o u l d o b v i o u s ly g u i d e u s i n te r ms o f r e s p o n d i n g a n d t h e y u n d e r to o k t h e n t o g iv e a c o n fir m a t o r y a ff id a v i t t o u s t o s u p p o r t w h a t e x a c t ly tr a n s p ir e d a t th e m e e ti n g when we met on 10 July and they renegade on th a t c o m m i t m e n t l i te r a lly t h i s w e e k . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o d o I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c tl y t h a t i f th e y g o t f u r th e r w o r k th r o u g h N e o o r i ts … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k t h e y w e r e c o n c e r n e d t h a t th e y w o u ld o b v i o u s l y l o s e t h e ir … ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Lose the … 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A p p o i n t m e n t s a t t h e o t h e r w h ic h is s i g n i f ic a n t r e v e n u e to t h e m ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: And on what basis …? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Te r m in a ti n g on one they w o u ld have to tr y in g to t e r m in a t e o n a ll . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d o n t h a t b a s is Page 225 of 236 they were 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 backpedal … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : C o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d c o m e t o t h e p a r ty ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. p r o f e s s i o n a l o r g a n i s a t io n . T h a t - t h a t d o e s n o t s o u n d l ik e a Th a t s o u n d s l i k e a - a f ir m o f a c c o u n ta n ts t h a t h a v e b r e a c h e d t h e ir m a n d a t e a n d a r e o n l y c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a ti o n s to t h e ms e l v e s as opposed to fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a t i o n s t o N e o . 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : D o y o u s e e a n i s s u e w i t h th a t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e y o b v i o u s l y n o w - i t is - it is c l e a r l y in d i c a t in g t h a t t h e y b a c k t r a c k e d t h e n a n d t h e y h a v e r e a li s e d t h e y m a d e a m is t a k e . N o w t h e y a r e n o t s u r e w h e r e t h e y s t a n d b u t o b v io u s ly a ll t h e a p p o i n t m e n ts w i t h u s o r a n y e n ti ty I a m a s s o c i a t e d w i th w o u l d b e t e r m in a t e d . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. J u s t t o c l a r if y th e i s s u e o f th e s ig n a tu r e o n t h e fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts . S o t h o s e fi n a n c i a l s d e s p i te w h a t m y le a r n e d c o l l e a g u e h a s - t r i e d t o a s s e r t a r e o n l y m e a n t f o r i n t e r n a l 20 p u r p o s e s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h e y w e r e n o t s u b m i tt e d t o S A R S ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h e s e f in a n c ia ls d e f in i te ly n o t . The last with SARS is 2014. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W e r e a n y s u b m i t t e d t o a n y t h ir d p a r t ie s ? Page 226 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o t t h a t I a m a w a r e o f . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. W a s th a t e v e r t h e in t e n t i o n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o , n o . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. So they were for internal purposes m o r e th a n a n y t h i n g e ls e ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. ( I n te r v e n e s ) . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : ( I n t e r v e n e s ) th e b a n k s h a d a n o b li g a ti o n o r t h e r e is a c o n tr a c tu a l r e q u ir e m e n t th e r e . 10 The banks get a schedule fr o m u s a n d t h a t s c h e d u l e s h o w s a l l o u r i n c o m in g r e v e n u e p e r p r o j e c t a n d t h e y a c t u a lly r e ly o n t h a t in t e r m s o f o u r o v e r d r a f t f a c i li t ie s a n d t h a t g o e s t o t h e m m o n t h ly. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Is t h e r e a n y a s p e c t o f Mr L o w e n t h a l ’s a ffi d a v it w h ic h y o u d i s a g r e e w i th ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : N o . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : D o y o u th in k t h e s te p s th a t M r L o w e n t h a l h a s t a k e n i n t h e r e c o n s tr u c t io n o f th e f in a n c ia ls - in y o u r o p i n i o n e i t h e r a s a l a y p e r s o n i n b u s i n e s s a lt e r n a tiv e ly a s a C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n ta n t - y o u t h i n k th e s t e p s a r e r e a s o n a b l e ? 20 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: D o y o u th i n k t h e y a r e t h e c o r r e c t s te p s t h a t h a d to b e t a k e n ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t h i n k th e y k e e p u s fo c u s e d o n e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s a r e b e i n g p o s te d c o r r e c t ly … ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Hm. Page 227 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : F o r t h o s e p e r i o d s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : Ye s . W e r e - w e r e t h e s t e p s e x p la i n e d t o y o u b e f o r e th e y w e r e t a k e n ? D i d Mr L o w e n th a l s a y I - t h i s is w h a t I b e li e v e t h e is s u e is , th is i s w h a t I t h i n k t h e s o lu t io n is ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : J a . H e c l a r i f ie d h i s s c o p e b e f o r e … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : H e c l a r if i e d ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t t h e s ta r t o f h is a p p o i n t m e n t. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : S o b u t - b u t f o r t h e m a in is s u e s t h a t n e e d e d t o b e r e c t i fi e d h e e x p la i n e d w h a t - w h a t f o r m t h a t r e c ti f ic a ti o n w o u l d t a k e ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th a t i s c o r r e c t . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: And why it was necessary and you agreed with that? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: O k a y. I a m n o t g o i n g t o g e t in t o t h e in d e p e n d e n t C h a r te r e d A c c o u n t a n t in B u s in e s s is s u e a g a in b e c a u s e I ju s t d o n o t t h i n k i t w a r r a n ts a n y f u r t h e r d e a l in g o r a t t e n t i o n w i t h . M r N a t a s e n b e fo r e I e n d o ff - o h . D o y o u b e l i e v e M a n n ie - M a n n ie Fi n a n c i a l S o l u ti o n s … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : F i n a n c i a l S e r v ic e s . 20 ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: S o r r y. Fi n a n c i a l S o l u ti o n s , ja M a n n ie Fi n a n c i a l S o l u ti o n s . T h a t is h o w i t is … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : O h . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: I t is te r m e d . D o y o u b e li e v e th a t t h e y w e r e n e g li g e n t i n g iv in g e ffe c t t o th e i r m a n d a te ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : My u n d e r s t a n d in g Page 228 of 236 fr o m that when they 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 a p p r o a c h e d m e w i t h th e i r i n te r a c t io n n o w a n d t h e c o n fi r m a to r y w a s t h e y r e l i e d o n a n E x c e l s p r e a d s h e e t fr o m R u b e n i n o r d e r t o c o m p il e t h e fi n a n c i a l s a n d t h a t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e t o m e b e c a u s e th a t w a s d e f in i te ly n o t t h e ir m a n d a te o r t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d u n d e r t a k in g t h a t t h e y h a d g iv e n m e . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: A n d t h e y w e r e b e i n g r e m u n e r a t e d f o r th o s e s e r v ic e s ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Th e y w e r e b e i n g r e m u n e r a t e d f o r t h a t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. B e f o r e I e n d o ff a n d I a m a l m o s t th e r e , 10 t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I w o u l d j u s t li k e t o a s k y o u s o m e q u e s t io n s g e n e r a ll y r e g a r d in g th is in q u ir y a n d I w o u ld li k e t o k n o w w h a t y o u r s u b je c t iv e o p i n i o n is . I a m n o t a s k i n g y o u i n y o u r c a p a c i ty a s D ir e c t o r o f N e o , s h a r e h o l d e r, C h a r t e r e d A c c o u n t a n t . I a m ju s t s a y in g s u b j e c tiv e ly w h a t is y o u r o p i n i o n ? W h y d o y o u b e l ie v e t h a t M s Tl a ts a n a i m p l ic a t e d y o u in t h is tr a n s a c ti o n g i v e n th e r e c o r d i n g t h a t w e h a v e h e a r d - y o u r d is c u s s i o n w i t h Mr Va n W y k , g iv e n t h e f a c t th a t t h e f a r m i n g v e n tu r e w a s a le g i t i m a te tr a n s a c ti o n , g iv e n t h e fa c t t h a t y o u w e r e u n a w a r e o f t h e s o u r c e - th e i ll e g a li ty o f t h e s o u r c e o f th e f u n d s . 20 G iv e n t h a t t h e m o n e y w a s r e p a i d in f u ll a n d t h a t y o u h a v e t e n d e r e d a n y b e n e fi t th a t y o u h a v e r e c e i v e d . Why do you think you s p e c i f ic a l ly - I k n o w t h e r e w e r e o t h e r p e o p l e - w h y d o y o u t h i n k y o u s p e c i f ic a l ly w e r e i m p l ic a te d b y Ms T l a ts a n a ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e l l w e - w e r e c e iv e d t h e f u n d s . S o b y v ir t u e o f u s r e c e iv i n g t h o s e f u n d s f r o m K o r e n e k a w e w e r e i m p l ic a te . H o w e v e r Page 229 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 w e w e r e t h e o n e p a r ty. S o i f K o r e n e k a h a s r e c e i v e d 5 1 m il li o n w h ic h i s M s Tl a ts a n a ’s t e s t i m o n y. W e r e c e iv e d 9 . 9 o f t h a t b u t t h r o u g h J u d i e l s h e w a s a lr e a d y in p o s s e s s i o n o f th e f a c t t h a t t h e 9 .9 h a d b e e n p a i d back. Ye s , b a r t h e 3 0 0 0 0 0 i s s u e b u t i t w a s p a i d t o B a t s a m a i a n d t h e y h a d a lr e a d y c o n fi r m e d th a t B a t s a m a i w a s B r i a n Va n W y k ’s p a r t n e r. S o w e w e r e t h e o n e e n ti ty th a t h a d a lr e a d y c o o p e r a te d t o s h o w i n g t h a t t h e fu n d s r e c e iv e d h a d b e e n r e t u r n e d t o Va n W y k . Where the r e m a in in g p a r t ie s t h e 2 8 m i lli o n o r s o t h a t s h e is s it t in g w i t h h a s n o t 10 been accounted for it. T h e n i n e m il li o n w a s li t e r a ll y la u n d e r e d i n t o c a s h a n d d e li v e r e d b y S P V t o B r i a n ’s d o o r s t e p . T h e o t h e r p a r ti e s n o m e n t io n h a s b e e n m a d e o f w h e r e th o s e fu n d s h a v e b e e n - g o n e a n d t o m e I c a n n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y a s a n e n ti ty t h a t h a s p r o v e n a t t h e s t a r t w h e n t h e C o m m i s s io n s t a r te d w i th u s w e h a d g i v e n t h e m t h e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g w h ic h c o n f ir m e d th a t I w a s u n a w a r e o f t h e s o u r c e o f f u n d s . S o t o m e tw o d a y s o f th e C o m m i s s i o n ’s t i m e h a s b e e n s p e n t o n tr y in g to p r o v e I a m n o t a g o o d a c c o u n ta n t a s o p p o s e d t o a c t u a ll y g e t t in g t o th e c r u x o f w h e r e t h e s e f u n d s h a v e r e a l ly g o n e fr o m a s t a t e 20 c a p tu r e p e r s p e c t iv e . S o I - I f a il t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y s o m u c h e ff o r t i s tr y i n g t o p r o v e w h e t h e r I r e a s o n a b l y o u g h t t o h a v e k n o w n w h e n I c a n p r o v e t h a t I d i d n o t k n o w a n d I a c t e d o n th e b a s i s t h a t th e s e f u n d s c a m e fr o m a d iv i d e n d s o u r c e th a t w a s g o i n g t o b e u t il is e d in a v e n t u r e with us. T h e r e h a s b e e n n o c o v e r u p fr o m m y s id e . Page 230 of 236 Th is is v a l id 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 m o n i e s th a t - a t th e t i m e I t h o u g h t it w a s v a l i d m o n i e s a n d I w a s g o in g in t o b u s i n e s s w i th Va n W y k . I w a s n o t tr y in g t o m i s l e a d o r h i d e o r d o a n y th in g u n to w a r d w i t h t h e s e f u n d s . When he started drawing his m o n e y b a c k w e h a d g iv e n h i m b a c k . S o y e s th e r e w a s a n i n d ir e c t b e n e f it d e r iv e d b y u s h a v in g h e l d t h o s e f u n d s w h i c h w e a r e n o w te n d e r in g t o s a y w e w il l r e i m b u r s e t h e s t a te fo r t h o s e t h a t w e h a v e e n j o y e d t h e b e n e f it o f b u t t h e r e h a s b e e n n o in t e n t i o n o r k n o w l e d g e t h a t t h e f u n d s w e r e n o t - t h a t th e y n o t fr o m a r e p u ta b le s o u r c e w h e n w e g o t th e m . 10 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : D i d y o u s a y Ms T l a ts a n a s ti ll h a s 2 0 … ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . Fr o m w h a t I r e c a l l i t is i n th e r e g i o n o f 2 8 m il li o n t h a t s h e is … A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : 2 8 m i ll io n … M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A t t h e p o in t w h e r e s h e s e e s t h e c a ll e d b a c k t h e r e w a s - th e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n 2 8 m i ll io n s o m e w h a t fr o m t h e t e s ti m o n y a n d t h e r e c o n t h a t is t h e r e . T h e r e i s 2 8 m il li o n s til l u n a c c o u n te d fo r b y h e r s e l f . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: D o y o u t h i n k th a t t h e f a c t t h a t s h e w a s a w i ll in g p a r t ic i p a n t th e fa c t t h a t s h e o u g h t - s h e o u g h t to h a v e k n o w n 20 b e t t e r g iv e n t h e n a tu r e o f t h e t r a n s a c t io n t h a t s h e w a s d e a li n g w i th a n d t h e fa c t th a t t h e r e - th e r e a r e m o n i e s t h a t s h e s t il l h a s i n a n y w a y is c o n n e c t e d o r c o r r e l a te d w i t h t h e fa c t t h a t s h e h a s n o w l e f t t h e R e p u b l ic ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll I m e a n I c a n n o t s p e c u l a te o n t h a t . c a n s a y is t h a t … Page 231 of 236 A ll I 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : ( I n te r v e n e s ) . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : I t is a m a t te r o f r e c o r d th a t 2 8 m i ll io n is s til l u n a c c o u n te d f o r a n d s h e h a s r e f u s e d to a c c o u n t o n i t a n d I a m b e i n g called to account on whether I am a good accountant or not. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d a s f a r a s y o u a r e a w a r e h a s M r Va n W y k b e i n g s u b p o e n a e d o r s u m m o n e d to t h i s i n q u ir y ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A s f a r a s I a m a w a r e - w e ll I d o n o t k n o w o f a n y k n o w l e d g e o f th a t . S o I a m a s s u m i n g n o t y e t . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O k a y. D o y o u b e l ie v e h e s h o u l d b e h e r e ? 10 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll t h r o u g h m y - m y e v id e n c e a n d Tl a ts a n a ’s e v i d e n c e h e h a s b e e n i m p lic a t e d . So I think he should be here to a c c o u n t f o r h is s id e … ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: Ja. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : A s to w h a t h e h a s d o n e w i t h t h e m o n e y ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : H e is t h e c o m m o n d e n o m in a t o r s o t o s p e a k . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Correct. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : W h y d o y o u th i n k t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a s fo c u s e d s o v ig o r o u s l y o n y o u r t e s t i m o n y, w h y d o y o u t h in k . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h a t’s n o t r e - e x a m i n a ti o n . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I t i s , I n e e d t o a s k . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h a t d o e s n ’ t r e a ll y a r i s e fr o m a n y t h i n g t h a t w a s le d e a r li e r o n . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: B u t C h a ir I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d i t my s e l f a n d . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) Page 232 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t r e - e x a m in a ti o n a s w e b o th k n o w i s t h e r e t o c la r i fy e v id e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n d e a l t w i t h e a r l i e r. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: As t h e C h a ir p l e a s e s . D o y o u s ti ll w is h t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M s Tl a ts a n a , i f g i v e n th e o p p o r t u n i ty. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : I f w e r e tu r n s t o th e R e p u b lic . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Correct. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : A n d i f t h e C o m m i s s i o n o b v io u s ly a ll o w s fo r i t . M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : 10 Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: And what do you want to examine her on, what s p e c i f ic a l ly d o y o u w a n t t o a s k M s Tl a ts a n a ? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : W e ll s p e c if ic a l ly h o w s h e a c c o u n t e d f o r t h e tr a n s a c ti o n , I h a v e b e e n a s k e d t o a c c o u n t r i g h t d o w n t o my fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts a s t o h o w t h e tr a n s a c t io n s w e r e a c c o u n t e d f o r i n my b o o k s , s o w e n e e d t o d e a l w it h h o w i t w a s a c c o u n te d f o r o n h e r s i d e , w h e th e r s h e h a d e v e r i n t e r a c t e d w i th m e a t a n y p o in t i n ti m e d u r i n g th e fl o w o f f u n d s , b e c a u s e I h a d n e v e r m e t o r s p o k e n o r d id n ’ t k n o w o f h e r e x i s te n c e a t a n y p o i n t u n til Yu d e e l b r o u g h t i t t o m y a t te n ti o n i n O c to b e r o f 2 0 1 7 , s o i t ’s o b v i o u s ly to c o n fir m t h a t I w a s n o t c o m p l ic it o r p a r ty to 20 a n y o f th e S t a te C a p t u r e t h a t o c c u r r e d h e r e . A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : D i d y o u r e a d t h e t r a n s c r i p t i o n o f M s T la ts a n a ’s evidence? M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Ye s . ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: W a s s h e i n t e r r o g a t e d o n h e r fi n a n c i a l s t a n d in g , h e r f in a n c i a ls o f K o r o n e k a ? Page 233 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : Not that I can see no. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : O n e m o m e n t C h a i r. C h a ir I t h i n k I a m g o i n g to le a v e i t th e r e , th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V A N D R E P I E N A A R : T h a n k y o u fo r y o u r i n d u l g e n c e , I a p o lo g is e if I p u s h e d t h e e n v e l o p e i n t e r m s o f t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t I w a s a s k in g a n d le a d i n g . CHAIRPERSON: No, no thank you. ADV ANDRE PIENAAR: 10 A n d I a p o lo g is e i f I m a y h a v e u n i n t e n d e d ly c a s t my e s te e m e d c o ll e a g u e in b a d li g h t , i t is n o t m y i n t e n t io n a n d I a p o lo g i s e , a n d I a m g o in g to le a v e i t t h e r e . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a i r, i f I m a y ju s t o n e o r t w o c o n c l u d i n g a s p e c ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h e r e is i n o u r s u b m is s i o n a f u n d a m e n t a l r e a s o n w h y l a w y e r s r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e i r c li e n t s d o n o t a s k le a d i n g q u e s t io n s o f th e ir c l ie n ts w h e n t h e y e x a m i n e th e m . Th e r e is a ls o a f u n d a m e n t a l r e a s o n w h y l a w y e r s d o n o t g e n e r a ll y s p e a k t o th e ir c li e n t s 20 a ft e r t h e y a r e c a ll e d a n d b e fo r e t h e y a r e r e - e x a m in e d . Th e C h a ir t h e u n d e r l y i n g r e a s o n i s b e c a u s e i t d i m in is h e s t h e c r e d ib il i ty o f t h e w i t n e s s ’s e v id e n c e a n d t h e r e a s o n fo r t h a t is b e c a u s e t h e a d j u d ic a t o r o r d e c is i o n m a k e r is th e n n o t l e f t w it h c la r i ty a s t o w h e t h e r t h e a n s w e r s g iv e n b y t h e w i t n e s s a r e t h e w i tn e s s e s a n s w e r s o r t h e y a r e t h e s c u lp t e d a n s w e r s o f a l a w y e r. Page 234 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C h a ir a t th e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f M r P i e n a a r ’s q u e s t i o n s I r a i s e d t h e c o n c e r n a b o u t t h e l e a d in g q u e s t i o n s . I r a i s e d i t s i m p ly b e c a u s e it is n o t s i m p ly t h a t i t is a r u l e o f e t h i c s , i t is b e c a u s e it u n d e r m i n e s t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e w i tn e s s a n d I d r a w i t t o y o u r a t t e n t io n C h a ir b e c a u s e in d u e c o u r s e w e w il l s u b m i t t o y o u t h a t y o u s h o u l d t a k e t h a t i m p a c t o f t h e ty p e o f q u e s ti o n i n g a n d t h e ty p e o f e n g a g e m e n t in t o a c c o u n t w h e n y o u w e i g h M r N a t a s e n ’s e v id e n c e to d a y. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir o n e l a s t t h i n g , j u s t Mr N a ta s e n r e c e n t ly g a v e e v i d e n c e 10 a b o u t M s K a ts la n a r e fu s i n g to s u b m i t a n a c c o u n t o f h e r fi n a n c i a l s , C h a ir y o u w i ll r e c a l l i n h e r e v i d e n c e s h e u n d e r t o o k t o d o s o a n d i n t h e e x p l a n a t io n I g a v e th is m o r n i n g , t h e e v i d e n c e o f h e r a t to r n e y, w h i c h I r e a d o u t to t h e h e a r i n g i n d ic a te d t h a t s h e h a d a p p o in t e d a n a u d i t o r t o d o s o , s o i t is n o t c le a r t o m e w h e r e M r N a t a s e n o b t a in e d t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t s h e h a d r e f u s e d to a c c o u n t f o r t h o s e f u n d s . It w a s a m a t t e r t h a t w e d i d a s k h e r a n d y o u s p e c i fic a lly i n d ic a t e d y o u w o u l d w a n t a f t e r h e r t e s t i m o n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y, t h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r N a t a s e n w e h a v e c o m e t o th e e n d o f y o u r e v i d e n c e , s h o u ld a n e e d a r i s e in t h e f u t u r e a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w i f i t w il l a r is e f o r th e C o m m i s s io n to r e q u e s t y o u t o c o m e b a c k y o u w i ll b e r e q u e s t e d b u t f o r n o w y o u a r e excused. M R V I V I E N N ATA S E N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 235 of 236 29 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 152 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . W e a r e g o i n g t o a d jo u r n th e p r o c e e d i n g s . M s H o f m e y r t o m o r r o w w e s t a r t n o r m a l ti m e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e d o i n d e e d C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: We can start at normal time. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S a fe ly s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : A ll r is e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 3 0 A U G U S T 2 0 1 9 10 Page 236 of 236