C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

27 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 7 2

20

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
PROCEEDINGS RESU MES ON 27 SEPTEMBER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s W e n tz e l , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?

Ye s .

M r K h u b a y o u w il l c o n t in u e t o

g iv e e v i d e n c e o n t h e s tr e n g t h o f th e o a t h t h a t y o u to o k tw o d a y s a g o .
O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . A lr i g h t . C o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

M r K h u b a y o u w e r e te s ti fy in g y e s t e r d a y t h a t

y o u b r ie f e d M r Mc B r i d e o n t h e R e n d i ti o n c a s e a n d h e t h e n i n s t r u c t e d
y o u to g o a n d c o ll e c t t h e d o c k e t w h ic h y o u d i d . C o u ld y o u t h e n t e l l th e
C h a ir h o w i t c a m e a b o u t t h a t w h a t i s n o w k n o w n a s th e s e c o n d r e p o r t
was prepared?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y Ms W e n tz e l I d i d n o t h e a r t h e q u e s t io n a n d
t h e r e a s o n I d i d n o t h e a r it is b e c a u s e I s a w w h a t th e y h a v e w r i tt e n o n
y o u r n a m e t a g t h e r e . D i d y o u s e e th a t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s a y s y o u a r e A d v o c a t e W e n tz e l S C .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

20

I k n o w t h a t is a v e r y n i c e p r o m o t io n .

I w il l

t e ll t h e b a r c o u n c il .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay yes.

D o y o u w a n t to r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n s o I

can hear it?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir.

C o u l d y o u e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir

how it came about that you compiled the second report together with
S i b iy a ? I m e a n S e s o k o – S e s o k o . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .

Page 2 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: Thank you. After I was allowed
t o g o a n d c o ll e c t t h e d o c k e t fr o m G a u t e n g I c a m e b a c k w i t h t h e d o c k e t
a n d I h a d a lr e a d y b e e n in f o r m e d b e c a u s e M r S e s o k o w a s n o t in v o lv e d
fr o m t h e o n s e t t o s a y t h a t I n e e d t o i n v o l v e M r S e s o k o .

So I did

a tt a c h m e n t o f t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w e – t h a t I h a d a l r e a d y a c q u ir e d a n d
w e e v a l u a t e d t h e e v id e n c e i n t o ta li ty w h ic h g a v e b ir th t o w h a t is c a l le d
t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d is t h a t t h e r e p o r t th a t a p p e a r s i n th e

bundle at page 139?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w t h e fi n a l r e c o m m e n d a t io n in t h a t r e p o r t i s
a s fo ll o w s :
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k le t u s a lw a y s a s f a r a s p o s s i b le r e fe r t o t h e m
a s e i t h e r t h e f ir s t r e p o r t , th e a m e n d e d r e p o r t o r t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t s o i t
w o u ld b e c l e a r w h ic h o n e w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th e – i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d to p a g e 1 7 6 o f t h e
second report it says:

20

“ B a s e d o n t h e a v a il a b l e e v i d e n c e t h e in d e p e n d e n t
p o li c e i n v e s t ig a ti v e d ir e c t o r a te r e c o m m e n d s t h a t n o
charges

should

be

brought

against

Lieutenant

G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d M a j o r G e n e r a l S i b iy a .

The

in v e s t i g a t io n e s t a b li s h e d th e r e is n o p r i m a f a c ie c a s e
a g a in s t t h e m .

However with regard to Colonel

Page 3 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M a le l e k e t h e r e is a p r i m a f a c ie c a s e t o s u s ta i n
c h a r g e s o f k i d n a p p i n g a n d d e f e a ti n g t h e e n d s o f
ju s t ic e . ”
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th is r e p o r t w a s s ig n e d b o th b y y o u , M r

S e s o k o a n d M r M c B r i d e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s M r M c B r i d e ’s i n v o l v e m e n t in t h e
10

c o m p il a ti o n o f th e r e p o r t ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M r M c B r i d e w a s n o t i n v o lv e d i n
t h e a c t u a l c o m p i la t io n h o w e v e r w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h a t b e c a u s e h e w a s
g o i n g to c o - s ig n t h e d o c u m e n t w e n t t o h i m f o r s p e ll in g c h e c k a n d i t w a s
r e tu r n e d t o u s u n ti l h e w a s s a t is f ie d a b o u t t h e q u a li ty o f t h e r e p o r t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w i f y o u g o to p a g e 2 5 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t a t
– in paragraph 81 you say:
“ S h o r tl y b e fo r e Mr M c Br id e ’s s u s p e n s i o n i n M a r c h
2 0 1 5 y o u r e c e iv e d a n u m b e r o f c a lls fr o m t h e
p e r s o n a l a s s i s ta n c e o f t h e t h e n M i n is t e r o f P o lic e

20

M i n is t e r N a t h i N h l e k o . ”
C o u ld y o u te ll th e C h a ir a n d d i r e c t y o u r a n s w e r s t o t h e C h a i r p l e a s e
what was that about?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e c a l l w a s a b o u t t h e M in is t e r
w a n ti n g to s e e m e p e r s o n a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e w e g o fu r t h e r o n t h a t p o i n t . L e t u s g o b a c k t o

Page 4 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t h e p o i n t t h a t – t o t h e a n s w e r t h a t y o u j u s t g a v e e a r li e r t o M s W e n t z e l’s
q u e s t io n . I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m t h e r e p o r t o f W e r k s m a n s o r W e r k s m a n s d o
y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y p r e f e r to b e c a ll e d W o r k m a n s o r W e r k s m a n s ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I d o n o t k n o w. I a lw a y s c a ll th e m W o r k s m a n s
b u t o th e r p e o p l e c a l l t h e m W e r k s m a n s .
CHAIRPERSON:
Worksmans

or

O k a y,

a lr i g h t .

It seems

fr o m

that report

Werksmans that the report says that when

of

they

in t e r v ie w e d Mr M c B r i d e h e s a i d t h a t h e h a d n o t s e e n th e fi r s t r e p o r t
w h e n h e s i g n e d t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t . B u t t h e y s a y t h a t y o u c o n t r a d ic te d
10

h i m w h e n t h e y i n t e r v ie w e d y o u a n d in t h i s r e g a r d if I a m n o t m i s t a k e n
t h e y s a y t h a t y o u – h e h a d – y o u s a i d h e in s t r u c t e d y o u t o r e tr ie v e t h e
d o c k e t a n d fr o m t h a t t h e y s e e m t o i n f e r t h a t h e m u s t h a v e s e e n t h e f ir s t
r e p o r t . D i d y o u s a y t o th e m t h a t h e h a d s e e n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

C h a ir p e r s o n I s ti ll r e m e m b e r

v e r y w e l l th a t th e y w a n t e d t o k n o w w h e t h e r w h e n h e w a n t e d a n u p d a t e
h e – I h a d h a n d e d h i m a c o p y o f th e r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e f ir s t r e p o r t ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O f t h e f ir s t r e p o r t b u t I in d i c a t e d
t o th e m t h a t I h a n d e d a c o p y t o M r S e s o k o w h o m ig h t h a v e h a n d e d t o
20

M c Br i d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o m i g h t h a v e h a n d e d i t to – o h .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H a n d e d i t t o M c B r i d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I n e v e r s a w w h e th e r h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d i d o r n o t.

Page 5 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e h a n d e d – n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A n d y e s te r d a y w h e n I w a s

t e s ti fy in g I i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e r e p o r t – t h e r e w a s a r e p o r t w h ic h w a s
s e n t to M r S e s o k o o n th e 2 3 r d w h ic h m e a n s th a t r e p o r t h a d a lr e a d y
c h a n g e d . S o if I c a n s a y w h a t I h a n d e d t o S e s o k o w a s a J a n u a r y r e p o r t
I w o u l d n o t r e a lly b e v e r y c o r r e c t o n th e b a s i s t h a t t h e y h a d t h a t s l ig h t
c h a n g e o n l y o n r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t w e c a n n o t p l a c e G e n e r a l S i b iy a a t
the scene.
10

CHAIRPERSON: But the short answer is that you do not know whether
o r n o t M r Mc B r id e d id s e e t h e f ir s t r e p o r t b e f o r e s i g n in g th e s e c o n d
report?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H e m a y o r h e m a y n o t y o u d o n o t k n o w ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d Mr K h u b a j u s t to c l a r i f y t h e r e p o r t t h a t

y o u s e n t to M r S e s o k o w a s t h a t w h a t w e a r e n o w c a ll i n g t h e a m e n d e d
report
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o i t w a s n o t t h e f ir s t r e p o r t i t w a s t h e

amended report?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r M r M c B r i d e s a w th e

amended report before signing the second report?

Page 6 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. N o w i f y o u g o n o w p l e a s e
d e a l w i th t h e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t i o n – th e t e le p h o n e c a l l y o u r e c e iv e d
fr o m t h e M i n is t e r ’s p e r s o n a l a s s i s ta n t d e a l t w i t h i n p a r a g r a p h 8 1 o f
your statement, page 25?
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :
p e r s o n a l a s s i s ta n t t o th e M i n is te r.

I r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m th e

I t w a s M i n i s te r N h le k o a n d s h e

m a d e i t c le a r t h a t s h e is t h e p e r s o n a l a s s i s t a n t o f t h e M i n i s te r a n d s h e
10

t o l d m e t h a t t h e M i n is te r w a n te d t o m e e t m e p e r s o n a ll y.

I th e n

r e q u e s t e d t o k n o w w h a t w a s th a t a b o u t – s h e j u s t g a v e m e a h i g h li g h t
t o s a y i t i s a b o u t t h e R e n d i ti o n . T h e n I i n d ic a t e d – I i n f o r m e d h e r t h a t I
w o u ld n e e d p e r m i s s i o n fr o m t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r Mr M c Br i d e a n d I
c a n n o t b e a b l e to ju s t g o a n d m e e t w i t h t h e M in is t e r.

Then she

s u g g e s t e d a n d t h a t w a s I t h in k o n t h e s u b s e q u e n t c a l l . S h e s u g g e s te d
a n d s a i d t o m e th e M in is t e r w o u l d w a n t t o m e e t w i t h y o u i n C a p e To w n
over the weekend.

T h e y w il l a r r a n g e tr a n s p o r t a ti o n a n d M c B r i d e w i ll

n e v e r k n o w. T h e n o n S u n d a y y o u w il l b e b a c k a n d t h e n o n M o n d a y y o u
w i ll b e a b l e t o r e p o r t o n d u t y. N o w I i n d i c a t e d t o h e r th a t i t d o e s n o t
20

m a t t e r i t is o v e r t h e w e e k e n d b e c a u s e i f I c o m e t h e r e I w i ll b e
d is c u s s in g is s u e s p e r t a i n i n g to t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e A c c o u n ti n g
O ff ic e r m u s t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s h e r r e s p o n s e to t h a t ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o s h e in d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t s h e
w i ll t a lk t o t h e M in is t e r a g a i n .

Page 7 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is w h e n o n th e fo ll o w i n g

d a y I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m t h e M in is t e r h i m s e l f .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: Both these numbers were saved
in m y c e l l p h o n e a n d I s til l h a v e t h e m t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th e r e fo r e y o u w o u ld – w o u l d y o u h a v e t h e –
e v e n t h e e x a c t d a t e w h e n y o u r e c e i v e d t h e s e c a l ls o r n o t th e d a t e s ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
10

I may not remember but it may

appear somewhere.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e s h o r tly a f t e r t h a t I h a d
s p o k e n t o t h e Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c to r. T h e r e w e r e s o m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M c B r i d e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M c B r i d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e r e w e r e s o m e d o c u m e n ts

w h ic h w e r e d o n e . I t h i n k t h e y m i g h t h a v e c a p tu r e d t h e d a t e I c a n n o t –
but now I cannot remember the date.
20

CHAIRPERSON: But it was March?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t w h a t I h a v e i t i s …
CHAIRPERSON: But it was March 2015?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y s o y o u …
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

But the exact date I cannot

Page 8 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m th e M i n is t e r h i m s e l f Mr

Nhleko?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w h a t – w h a t d id h e s a y i n t h e t e l e p h o n e c a ll ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H i s c a ll la s t e d v e r y – i t m ig h t b e
le s s t h a n – n o t e v e n a m i n u t e .

He just said I want you to cooperate

w i t h W e r k s m a n s . A n d th e n I s a id o k a y a n d th e n h e te r m in a te d t h e c a ll .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Oh.

A t th a t s t a g e h a d y o u b e e n – h a d W e r k s m a n

been in touch with you at that stage?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y h a d b e e n in t o u c h w i t h y o u .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h a d y o u h a d a n i n t e r v ie w w it h t h e m a l r e a d y o r n o t
yet?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

No I had not yet had the

in t e r v ie w w i t h t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e y j u s t c a l l m e r e q u e s t in g m e
20

t o a t te n d th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r v ie w.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In t e r v i e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d I r e f e r r e d t h e m t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r.

Page 9 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

A n d w h a t d i d t h e – w h a t w a s t h e ir r e s p o n s e

w h e n y o u r e f e r r e d t h e m to t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c to r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : A t s o m e s t a g e t h e r e w e r e s o m e
e x c h a n g e I t h i n k o f e m a il s b e t w e e n t h e m a n d M r S e s o k o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e I a ls o i n d ic a te d t o th e m
t h a t e v e n t h o u g h t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r i s t h e h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm,
10

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

S e s o k o is t h e d ir e c t s u p e r v is o r

a n d I r e p o r t d ir e c t to h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o I g a v e t h e m I t h i n k t h e e m a il
o f M r S e s o k o a n d th e n t h e y s t a r t e d li a i s i n g w i t h h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . A n d w h e n y o u – i f y o u l o o k a t th e ti m e w h e n y o u
h a d t h a t i n t e r a c ti o n w i t h W e r k s m a n s a n d t h e ti m e o r th e d a te w h e n th e
M i n is t e r s p o k e t o y o u a n d s a i d h e w a n te d y o u t o c o o p e r a t e w i th
W e r k s m a n s d id – h o w m u c h t i m e h a d e l a p s e d ? D o y o u h a v e a
r e c o l l e c ti o n ? A w e e k , tw o w e e k s , a f e w d a y s ?
20

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: I cannot remember but the time
la p s e th e r e w a s n o t r e a l ly h u g e o n th e b a s is t h a t a f t e r I in d ic a t e d t h a t I
w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o m e e t w i t h th e M i n i s t e r i n C a p e To w n Mc B r id e w a s
then suspended.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t lik e i n a f e w d a y s ’ t i m e a f t e r th e c a l l ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t d i d n o t t a k e a m o n t h .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

B u t I c a n n o t r e a l ly q u a n ti fy i n

terms of…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : D a y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h b u t m a y b e a r o u n d a m o n th o r s o a f t e r th e c a l l .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : L e s s t h a n a m o n t h – l e s s t h a n a
m o n th – l e t u s s a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e s s t h a n a m o n th ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W e e k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Weeks ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o d i d y o u g e t th e i m p r e s s io n t h a t W e r k s m a n s
h a d r e p o r t e d to t h e M i n is t e r t h a t y o u h a d r e fe r r e d t h e m t o M r M c B r i d e
w h e n th e y w a n t e d t o – y o u to c o m e f o r a n i n te r v i e w ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I ju s t g o t a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t

p r o b a b ly W e r k s m a n h a d c o n ta c t e d h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
20

T h a t is w h y h e h a d t o c o n t a c t

me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . A n d h e m u s t h a v e f o r m e d t h e v ie w t h a t y o u w e r e
n o t c o o p e r a ti n g w i th t h e m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h o u g h t i t w a s n e c e s s a r y th a t h e s h o u l d m a k e th e
c a l l p e r s o n a l ly t o y o u a n d – a c tu a l ly h e h a d w is h e d to h a v e a m e e ti n g

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
with you.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In C a p e To w n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c a ll m u s t – h e m u s t h a v e m a d e th e c a ll b e c a u s e
y o u k e p t o n s a y i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d n e e d M r M c Br id e ’s p e r m is s io n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is c o r r e c t b u t I n e e d t o

in d i c a t e c l e a r ly C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t i t is n o t th e M i n i s t e r h i ms e lf w h o
p r o p o s e d C a p e To w n . I t is t h e PA s a y i n g t h e M i n is t e r w a n ts t o m e e t m e
10

w i t h – w i t h m e i n C a p e To w n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t c o m p l e t e ly b u t

o b v i o u s l y s h e w a s c o n v e y i n g t o y o u w h a t t h e M i n i s te r h a d a s k e d h e r
b e c a u s e s h e w a s t h e PA’s M i n is te r a n d s h e w a s – I a m s a y i n g s h e i t
c o u l d h a v e b e e n a h e – w a s – h a d b e e n s e n t b y t h e M i n is te r t o c a l l y o u
a n d a s k y o u c o m e t o C a p e To w n . O t h e r w i s e t h e PA w o u l d n o t s a y c o m e
t o C a p e To w n u n le s s th e M i n is t e r w a n t e d y o u t o c o m e t o C a p e To w n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w a s t h is t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t y o u s p o k e t o –
y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g t o t h e M in is t e r ?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . B u t h e – w h a t h e h a d t o s a y w a s ju s t b r i e f. I

w a n t y o u t o c o o p e r a te w i t h W e r k s m a n s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: When he came on the – when he phoned – were you
p h o n e b y h is PA w h o t h e n s a i d p le a s e h o ld o n fo r t h e M i n i s t e r o r d id h e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
p h o n e a n d y o u p ic k e d u p t h e p h o n e – th e c a ll . Yo u d id n o t k n o w t h e
n u m b e r a n d h e s a i d t h is is th e M in is t e r o f P o l ic e o r I a m N a t h i N h l e k o
t h e M in is t e r o f P o l ic e I w o u l d li k e y o u t o c o o p e r a t e w i th W e r k s m a n s .
H o w d i d i t – h o w d id h e i n t r o d u c e h i m s e l f t o y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e p h o n e d d ir e c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e y w e r e h a v i n g d i ffe r e n t

numbers.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

Ye s .

W e ll w a s t h a t o n a c e ll p h o n e o r o n a

la n d l in e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e u s e d a c e l l p h o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A c e l l p h o n e o k a y.

So how did he start the

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e i n tr o d u c e d h i ms e lf .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja in what way?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To s a y th a t h e is t h e M i n is te r o f
P o lic e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
20

And I could hear the voice

b e c a u s e I t h in k f e w w e e k s h e h a d c o m e t o o u r o ff ic e a n d a d d r e s s e d u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o I w a s r e a ll y fa m i li a r w i th h is
voice.
CHAIRPERSON:

W i th h i s v o ic e y e s . A n d t h e n h e j u s t s a i d h e w o u l d

lik e y o u t o c o o p e r a te w i t h – w i t h W e r k s m a n s .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r K h u b a a f te r Mr M c Br id e w a s s u s p e n d e d

who replaced him?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s M r I s r a e l K g a m a n y a n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And …
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry Ms Wentzel.

D id y o u s e e t h e d ir e c t

a p p r o a c h b y t h e M i n is te r t o y o u a s o p p o s e d to h i m t a lk in g to t h e
E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r t o p a s s o n th e m e s s a g e t o y o u a s s o m e t h i n g
10

u n u s u a l o r s tr a n g e o r d id y o u s e e n o th in g u n u s u a l ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

For me it was very unusual

b e c a u s e p o l it ic ia n s n o r m a ll y w il l n o t c o m m u n i c a t e w i t h th e s t a ff . T h e y
m a k e c o m m u n ic a te w it h h e a d s o f d e p a r t m e n ts b e c a u s e th e y r e p o r t
d ir e c t t o th e m . S o I f e l t th a t p r o b a b ly h e w a n t e d m e t o d o s o m e t h in g
without Mr McBride knowing.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d Mr M c B r i d e n e v e r t o l d y o u a n y t h i n g a l o n g t h e

li n e s t h a t t h e M in is t e r d id a p p r o a c h h i m t o a s k h i m t o r e l e a s e y o u t o g o
a n d s e e h i m i n C a p e To w n ?
\ M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : N o h e d i d n o t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i f h e – i f t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d h e p r o b a b l y w o u ld

have told you?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u g e t a n y i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h e M i n is t e r w a s

tr y i n g to b y p a s s t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r o n t h is m a t t e r – o n t h e
R e n d i t io n m a t te r ?

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

M r K h u b a y o u s a y in

p a r a g r a p h 8 3 o n p a g e 2 6 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t th a t h e r e a f t e r y o u w e n t t o
D u m a N o k w e C h a m b e r s in S a n d to n a n d m e t w i th A d v o c a t e W il li a m
M o k h a r i S C . C o u l d y o u e x p l a i n w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t m e e t i n g ? F ir s tl y
who told you to go and what happened?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S h o r tl y a f t e r t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f
M r K g a m a n y a n e a s th e Ac t in g Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r I w a s to l d b y h i m t o
10

g o t o D u m a N o k w e C h a m b e r s i n S a n d t o n t o m e e t w i th A d v o c a t e W il li a m
M o k h a r i.

I n t h e m o r n i n g I w e n t t h e r e a s I w a s in s t r u c te d a n d w h e n I

a r r iv e d a t t h e r e c e p t io n I j u s t s a t t h e r e a n d w a it i n g f o r h i m . H e c a m e
d o w n a n d n e v e r r e q u e s t e d m e t o g o w i t h h i m t o h is o ff ic e .
w i t h m e a t t h e r e c e p ti o n .

He was standing.

He spoke

And I was standing

b e c a u s e I w a s s h a k in g h is h a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t Mr K g a m a n y a n e ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

No that is Advocate Mokhari at

Duma Nokwe Chambers.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i n h is c h a m b e r s .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J a .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: Now he requested me to make a
s u p p o r t a ffi d a v it a c o n fir m a t o r y a ff id a v i t i n s u p p o r t o f t h e M in is t e r.

I

t h e n r e f u s e d a n d I to l d h i m t h a t if I d o t h a t I w i ll b e l y i n g . A n d h e d i d
n o t s a y a n y t h in g .

H e s a i d n o i t is fi n e y o u c a n g o b a c k . A n d th e n I

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
le f t . I t w a s t h e s h o r t e s t m e e ti n g I h a d . T h e n I w e n t b a c k .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w t e ll m e …
CHAIRPERSON:

H a d y o u s e e n – I a m s o r r y.

Had you seen the

M i n is t e r ’s a ff id a v i t t h a t y o u – th a t h e w a s a s k in g y o u t o – to s i g n a
c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it a b o u t .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: I had not yet seen it. I – even
n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d o n o t k n o w t h a t a ffi d a v i t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h B u t w h a t – h o w – h o w c o u l d y o u s a y if y o u s ig n e d
a c o n f ir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i t y o u w o u ld b e ly i n g i f y o u h a d n o t y e t s e e n w h a t
t h e M i n i s t e r ’s a ff id a v i t s a i d o r w a s s a y in g ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I s a i d th a t o n t h e b a s is t h a t t h i s
is s u e w a s o n t h e m e d i a a n d th e M in is t e r h a d a v e r s i o n o f w h a t
happened.

S o n o w i t i m m e d i a t e ly c a m e t o m y a w a r e n e s s t h a t w h a t I

h a v e t o c o n f ir m it is w h a t h e h a s b e e n s p e a k i n g p u b l ic ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e m e d i a . Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e – a n d t h a t w a s n o t th e
tr u e r e fl e c t io n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in b r i e f w h a t w a s t h e v e r s i o n th a t y o u h a d s e e n
in t h e m e d i a b e i n g a tt r i b u t e d t o t h e M i n i s t e r ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e v e r s i o n is t h a t M c B r i d e

a l t e r e d – i n fl u e n c e d m e to a l t e r th e r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e r e p o r t w a s d e l e te d t o s u i t

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t N PA c a n n o t c h a r g e D r a m a t a n d S ib iy a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Did you hereafter attend further interviews

with Werksmans or Worksmans?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t.

I had three

in t e r v ie w s w i th t h e m . A n d i n m y fir s t m e e ti n g w i th t h e m t h e y a s s u r e d
me – it was a panel of three or four – I think three and they assured me
t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n t h e y w e r e d o in g w i ll n o t r e s u l t i n a c r i m i n a l o r
d e p a r t m e n ta l r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a g a i n s t m e o r r e s u lt i n g i n m e b e i n g
10

c h a r g e d . A n d I s a i d is th e r e a n e e d f o r m e to b e l e g a ll y r e p r e s e n t e d ?
And they said no.

I did not record that but we had discussed this at

le n g t h w i t h Mr S e s o k o a n d S e s o k o s a i d w e – y o u m u s t n o t f o r g e t w e
n e e d t o r a i s e t h i s is s u e . A n d I t h o u g h t t h e y c a p t u r e d i t i n t h e i r r e c o r d .
F o r s o m e r e a s o n I d id n o t s e e t h a t a p p e a r i n g .

A n d t h a t is w h e n I

s t a r t e d t o b e fr e e t o t a l k t o th e m a f t e r t h a t a s s u r a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Were they recording you?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o fr o m t h e ir r e c o r d i n g w h a t e v e r y o u s a id i n

t e r m s o f th is i s s u e s h o u l d a p p e a r ?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r i t d o e s a p p e a r in t h e ir

tr a n s c r ip t s o r h a v e y o u n o t h a d a c h a n c e t o …
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c h e c k e d th e tr a n s c r ip t b e c a u s e
w e o n c e r e q u e s t e d t h e m w h e n w e w e r e b e in g c h a r g e d b u t w e c o u ld n o t
g e t t h e a u d io . T h e y s e n t t h e tr a n s c r i b e d r e c o r d .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th a t p a r t d i d n o t a p p e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. Did you ask for the audio and they did not
p r o v i d e i t o r d id y o u n o t a s k f o r i t ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: I think we might have asked for
it b u t le t m e s a y I a m s p e a k i n g u n d e r c o r r e c t io n n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

B u t m y c o m m o n s e n s e te ll s m e

t h a t i f y o u a r e t o d o a [ in d i s ti n c t ] y o u w a n t to c o m p a r e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n w h a t i s
tr a n s c r ib e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: Because some words cannot be
a s a u d i b le a s o n e m a y t h i n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J a . B u t d o y o u h a v e a c l e a r r e c o l le c ti o n w h e t h e r
w h e n y o u r a is e d t h a t is s u e n a m e ly c o u l d th is r e s u l t in m e b e i n g
d is c i p l i n e d o r b e i n g c h a r g e d . D o I n e e d a la w y e r h e r e ? D o y o u h a v e a
c le a r r e c o l le c t i o n t h a t a t th a t s t a g e th e r e c o r d i n g w a s o n b e c a u s e it – i t

20

h a v i n g b e e n a fi r s t th i n g – th e f ir s t th i n g y o u r a is e d i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t
y o u r a is e d i t b e f o r e th e p r o c e e d i n g s s ta r t e d fo r m a l ly a n d t h e r e fo r e i t
m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n c a p tu r e d ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I d id a f t e r t h e y i n tr o d u c e d

themselves. They indicated that they are on record.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 18 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
o th e r.

A n d t h e n t h e y i n tr o d u c e d e a c h

Th e n I s ta r t e d a s k in g t h e q u e s ti o n .

And that part I was

f o r tu n a te e n o u g h b e c a u s e M r S e s o k o h a d a s e p a r a t e r e c o r d i n g w h ic h
h e u s e d h i ms e lf a n d t h a t w a s c a p t u r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r o n e a s o p p o s e d t o M r S e s o k o ’s o n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H is o n e ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR

HUMBULANI

INNOCENT

KHUBA:

And

it

just

gave

me

a

c o n s o l a ti o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

That I could not record but our

s i tu a ti o n w a s ju s t e x a c t ly th e s a m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Hm.

But – but is your answer to my question

t h a t y o u d o k n o w t h a t i t w a s r e c o r d e d a n d t h e r e f o r e i f th e a u d io
r e c o r d i n g c o u l d b e a c c e s s e d i t w ill b e th e r e o r i t s h o u l d b e th e r e o r a r e
you saying you are not sure?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I a m s u r e t h a t if i t is r e c o r d e d it
is t h e r e . B u t le t m e j u s t g i v e a l it t le b i t o f ju s t …
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W e ll – I a m s o r r y b e fo r e y o u d o th a t .

Yo u s e e my

q u e s t io n is w h e t h e r i f w e g e t t h e r e c o r d i n g w e a r e lik e ly t o f i n d i t t h e r e
u n l e s s t h e r e h a s b e e n i n te r f e r e n c e .

As f a r a s y o u k n o w a n d t h a t

depends
1 . O n w h e t h e r y o u k n o w th a t w h e n y o u r a i s e d t h a t p o i n t t h e
r e c o r d i n g h a d s ta r t e d o r y o u d o n o t k n o w ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W h a t I c a n s a y C h a ir p e r s o n is

Page 19 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t h a t a f te r t h e y in tr o d u c e d t h e m s e l v e s th a t is w h e n I i n d ic a t e d t h a t p a r t
r e g a r d in g l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti o n .

B u t t h e p o i n t th a t I a m c o m in g t o

C h a ir p e r s o n is t h a t I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r t h e y – b u t th e r e c o r d i n g w a s
t h e r e i n fr o n t o f m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o t h a t p a r t I m a y n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o r w h e t h e r t h e r e c o r d i n g w a s o n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s p l a y in g o r …
CHAIRPERSON: Or not.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c a n n o t r e a ll y t e l l th a t m u c h .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t y o u s a i d s o m e th in g e a r li e r o n a b o u t t h e m

s a y in g w e a r e o n r e c o r d .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t b e f o r e y o u r a is e d t h e p o i n t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Th a t w a s b e f o r e t h e y r a i s e d t h e
p o i n t b e c a u s e t h e y i n d ic a t e d t h e y h a d a w a y w h e r e t h e y d id t h e ir
t h i n g s . T h e y w o u ld f ir s tl y i n d ic a te t h e d a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

A n d m e n ti o n t h e d a t e a n d t h e n

a ft e r t h a t t h e y w il l s a y …
CHAIRPERSON: The recording?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e y a r e o n r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h a t I a m a s k in g is w h e t h e r w h e n - a s fa r a s
y o u c a n r e m e m b e r - w h e n th e y s a id w e a r e o n r e c o r d …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H m .

Page 20 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e t h e r t h a t w a s b e f o r e o r a f t e r y o u h a d r a is e d th e

p o i n t t o s a y d o I n e e d a l a w y e r to - t o r e p r e s e n t m e h e r e . A m I a t r is k
f o r a d i s c i p li n a r y c h a r g e o r a c r i m i n a l c h a r g e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W h a t I c a n s a y I t h i n k it w a s

a ft e r t h e y s a i d t h e y a r e o n r e c o r d b u t w h a t I r e m e m b e r v i v i d l y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Is t h a t it is a f te r t h e y i n tr o d u c e d
themselves.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y, o k a y. T h a n k y o u .

I t h i n k a t t e m p ts s h o u ld b e

m a d e t o tr y a n d g e t t h e r e c o r d - th e a u d i o .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W e w il l m a k e a n o te o f t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w a f te r t h e in t e r v ie w s W e r k s m a n s p r o d u c e d
a r e p o r t w h ic h a p p e a r s a t th e b u n d l e p a g e 1 7 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u d e a l w i t h t h e r e p o r t M s W e n tz e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w il l r e c a l l t h a t y e s t e r d a y I in d ic a t e d t h a t I w o u l d

20

lik e M r Mc B r i d e , Mr S e s o k o a n d Mr K h u b a t o l o o k a t t h e r e p o r t p r o p e r ly
a n d s u b m i t a ffi d a v i t s th a t d e a l w i t h th e f i n d i n g s o f t h e r e p o r t a n d th e
r e a s o n s g i v e n f o r t h e fi n d i n g s r e l a t i n g t o t h e m .

Now I do not know

w h e t h e r in r e g a r d to M r K h u b a y o u p r o p o s e t o d e a l w i t h t h o s e is s u e s
w i t h h i m n o w w h i l e h e i s o n t h e w i t n e s s s t a n d o r w h e th e r y o u i n t e n d y o u p r o p o s e t o l e t h i m a ls o g o a n d d o t h a t - s u b m i t t h a t a n - a n

Page 21 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a ffi d a v i t t h a t d o e s s o o f c o u r s e w i th h i m , M r Mc B r i d e a n d Mr S e s o k o i f
t h e r e is a n e e d f o r a n y o n e o f t h e m o r a l l o f th e m t o b e c a ll e d b a c k t o
d e a l w i t h th a t a s p e c t th a t c a n b e d o n e . H a v e y o u a p p l i e d y o u r m i n d a s
t o h o w y o u p r o p o s e to d e a l w i th it ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir, I w a s g o in g t o d e a l w i th i t w i th th e

witness because …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e r e i s a g r e a t d e a l o f w h a t is s a id …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

In t h e r e p o r t is b a s e d u p o n w h a t t h e y s a y

t h e y w e r e t o ld b y M r K h u b a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e r e

is

a ls o

part of

these

papers

a

c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it t h a t M r K h u b a d e p o s e d t o i n s u p p o r t o f M c B r i d e
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I n h is d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e e d in g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I n th a t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A ff i d a v i t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A ff i d a v i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H e d e a l s w i th
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e p o r t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o m p r e h e n s iv e l y a ll t h e t h i n g s …

Page 22 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e - t h e g r o u n d s u p o n w h ic h W e r k s m a n s s a y
t h e y c a m e t o th e ir f i n a l c o n c l u s io n th a t th e r e p o r t h a d b e e n a l te r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B e c a u s e o f t h a t I th i n k th a t p e r h a p s …
CHAIRPERSON: No, no that is …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H e i s i n a p o s i ti o n t o …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : To d e a l w i t h i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t i s - t h is f in e a n d M r K h u b a y o u a r e r e a d y to d e a l
w i t h t h is r e p o r t …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o p e r ly ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I - I t h i n k - I a m o k a y. W e - w e
d e a lt w i t h - w i t h i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

20

B u t I t h i n k w h a t w i ll b e a l it t le

b i t o f a c h a ll e n g e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W o u l d b e i f I g e t m o r e ti m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e c o l le c ti o n is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 23 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : E n h a n c e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In t e r m s o f c e r t a i n t h in g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e h o w I a r t ic u l a te d i t in a
c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t w a s w h e n t h i n g s w e r e s til l

fr e s h .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . W e ll o f c o u r s e w h e n th in g s w e r e s ti ll
fr e s h i t w o u l d m e a n t h a t y o u h a d a b e tt e r r e c o l le c ti o n …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Of what had happened?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

So - so you said something about if you have more

ti m e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

M o r e ti m e to g o t h r o u g h t h a t

c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th e r e p o r t it s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n o t h a d ti m e t o d o t h a t c o m p r e h e n s i v e ly o f
la t e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I - I d i d i t l a s t n i g h t …

Page 24 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e th a t is w h e n y o u r a i s e

it C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u p r e f e r t o h a v e m o r e ti m e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n i f I c a n h a v e a l i tt l e b i t o f
in d u l g e n c e t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : R e a lly m a k e t h e d i ff e r e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I - I w o u l d b e - I - I w o u ld w a n t y o u to d o t h a t

b e c a u s e y o u s e e t h a t r e p o r t i s i m p o r ta n t w i th r e g a r d t o th e r o l e o f
W e r k s m a n s o n t h is w h o le is s u e a n d I w il l g iv e W e r k s m a n s a n
o p p o r t u n i ty. I t h i n k M r J u ly w i ll n e e d to b e c a l le d to g i v e e v id e n c e a n d
t o g i v e th e ir s i d e o f t h e s t o r y w i t h r e g a r d t o h o w th e y h a n d l e d t h is a n d
t h e c o n c l u s io n s t h a t t h e y r e a c h e d in t h e - h e r e a c h e d in t h e r e p o r t b u t I
- I w o u ld l ik e y o u , Mr S e s o k o a n d M r M c Br id e t o r e a lly l o o k a t th e - t h e
20

r e p o r t . H o w i t d e a lt w i t h i s s u e s .
W h a t i t s a y s a b o u t e a c h o n e o f y o u a n d w h a t f in d in g s i t
makes?

W h a t t h e r e a s o n s a r e t h a t g iv e n fo r e a c h fi n d i n g a g a i n s t y o u

a n d a g a i n s t t h e m a t e r i a l t h a t W e r k s m a n s h a d b e fo r e t h e r e m u n e r a t i o n
t o - w h a t s ta t e m e n ts d i d t h e y h a v e ? W h a t d o c u m e n ts d id t h e y h a v e y o u
k n o w o n w h i c h t h e ir fi n d i n g s w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e m a d e .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
S o - I - I w o u l d b e i n c li n e d t o g i v e y o u t h a t o p p o r tu n it y
because

also

the

-

because

I

t h in k

that

th e

Minister

and

M r K g a m a n y a n e o r th e M i n i s t e r m u s t h a v e m a d e t h e d e c is i o n s to
s u s p e n d o r w a s it t h e - t h e A c t i n g D i r e c t o r.

I cannot remember now

w h o m a d e t h e d e c is i o n t o s u s p e n d t h e t h r e e o f - th e t h r e e o f y o u - m u s t
h a v e m a d e th a t o n th e b a s is o f t h a t r e p o r t a n d th e th r e e o f y o u w e r e
p u t t h r o u g h q u i t e a d i ff ic u l t s i t u a t io n a n d - a n d I w o u ld l ik e y o u to b e
a b l e to d e a l w i t h it q u i t e p r o p e r ly s o t h a t w h e n I e v a lu a t e a ll t h e
e v i d e n c e a b o u t h o w t h e t h r e e o f y o u w e r e d e a l t w it h a n d h o w t h e
10

M i n is t e r - w h a t r o le t h e M in is t e r p l a y e d , w h a t r o l e W e r k s m a n s p l a y e d ,
w h a t r o l e Mr K g a m a n y a n e p l a y e d a n d e v e r y b o d y.
I h a v e a fu ll p i c tu r e . S o th a t - t h a t is w h a t I a m i n c l i n e d to
d o . W h a t d o y o u s a y M s W e n tz e l ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I - I h a v e g o t n o d i ff ic u l ty w i t h th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a t a p p r o a c h w h a t s o e v e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e o n ly t h i n g C h a ir i s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o a s p e c ts i n th e r e p o r t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o d r a w t o y o u r a t t e n t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d a ls o t o t h e a t te n ti o n o f t h e w i t n e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 26 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W h ic h d o n o t d e a l s p e c i fi c a lly w i t h t h e

a l le g a ti o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A g a in s t h i m o r t h i n g s t h a t t h e y s a y h e s a id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t i s f i n e . T h a t is fi n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o i f w e c o u l d h a v e r e g a r d to p a g e - t h e

r e p o r t C h a ir s t a r ts a t p a g e 1 7 8 .
10

CHAIRPERSON: 100-and …?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 78.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n i f y o u c a n g o t o p a g e 1 8 2 o f t h e

b u n d l e a n d y o u w ill s e e th e i n tr o d u c t i o n . I t s a y s :
“ T h e O ffic e s o f W e r k s m a n s h a s b e e n m a n d a t e d b y
t h e H o n o u r a b le M i n i s te r o f P o l ic e Mr N a t h i N h l e k o
to

conduct

an

i n v e s ti g a ti o n

into

th e

report

s u b m i tt e d b y I P I D w h ic h d e a l w it h th e r e n d it io n . ”
B u t t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e f o r th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a r e v e r y
20

i m p o r t a n t C h a ir. T h e y s a y :
“In

c o n d u c ti n g

the

aforesaid

i n v e s ti g a ti o n

the

M i n is t e r h a s p r o v i d e d W e r k s m a n s w i th t h e f o ll o w i n g
t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e . Yo u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e i n t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n a r e t h e f o l lo w in g . ”
A n d th e y a r e q u o ti n g i t w o u ld a p p e a r fr o m t h e i n s tr u c ti o n

Page 27 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r.
“Who

and

under

what

c i r c u ms t a n c e s

was

the

o r i g in a l r e p o r t a l t e r e d o r h o w th e s e c o n d r e p o r t
c a m e a b o u t w i t h b o t h r e p o r t s s ig n e d b y t h e s a m e
person i.e. Mr Khuba?

Whether any misconduct or

o ffe n c e h a s b e e n c o m m i t t e d a n d i f s o b y w h o m ?
Whether

there

m is c o n d u c t

is
and

L i e u t e n a n t D r a m a t,
10

a

prima

facie

c r i mi n a l
Major Sibiya

evidence
l ia b il it y

and

of
by

any

other

o ffic e r s m e n ti o n e d i n t h e o r i g i n a l r e p o r t ?

The

c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h th e r e p o r t a n d t h e
d o c k e t w a s h a n d e d t o t h e N PA a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d
t o t h e d o c k e t w h ils t i n t h e N PA’s p o s s e s s i o n a n d
fi v e a n y o th e r m a t t e r t h a t m i g h t c o m e t o y o u r
a tt e n ti o n d u r i n g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n r e l e v a n t to y o u r
c o n c l u s i o n s a n d f in d in g s . ”
N o w t o m e a n d th e w a y t h a t I r e a d t h is i f it i s c o r r e c t t h a t a s
y o u a n d Mr S e s o k o s a y t h a t y o u w e r e t o l d t h a t y o u w e r e n o t b e i n g
in v e s t i g a t e d a n d t h e r e w a s n o p r o s p e c t o f y o u b e i n g i n v e s ti g a te d fo r
20

a n y m is c o n d u c t o r w r o n g d o i n g o r o ff e n c e e v e n . Th is w o u l d s e e m n o t t o
b e c o r r e c t b e c a u s e t h e ir te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e w e r e s p e c i f ic a l ly w h e th e r
a n y m is c o n d u c t o r o ff e n c e h a s b e e n c o m m i t te d a n d i f s o b y w h o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e o th e r a s p e c t …
CHAIRPERSON: May - maybe what one can ask is whether Werksmans

Page 28 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a t a n y s t a g e b e f o r e t h e i n te r v i e w s t a r t e d t o l d y o u w h a t t h e ir t e r m s o f
r e fe r e n c e w e r e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t p a r t C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n n o t

r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. D o y o u k n o w w h e n f o r t h e fi r s t ti m e y o u
s a w i n w r i t in g w h a t t h e ir t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e w e r e ?

Whether it was

w h e n y o u s a w th e - t h e ir r e p o r t fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e o r w h e t h e r y o u g o t t o
10

k n o w t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e a t s o m e s ta g e a s th e y a r e p u t h e r e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t p a r t C h a ir p e r s o n i t - i t is

v e r y d i ffi c u l t to s a y b e c a u s e I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r th e y s h o w m e
there …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t I s a w i t i n t h i s r e p o r t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h e n I d i d t h e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, a l r i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a i r t h e s e c o n d a s p e c t I w a n t e d to d e a l w i t h
20

is w h a t y o u te s t i fi e d t o y e s t e r d a y.

Yo u w e r e e x p l a i n i n g w h a t t h e

p u r p o s e a n d r o le w a s o f a n I P I D R e p o r t a n d w h a t t h e - w h a t y o u
u n d e r s t o o d t h e r o le w a s o f t h e N PA o n c e t h e y r e c e iv e d t h e r e p o r t …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d ju s t b y th a t I w o u l d li k e y o u t o c o m m e n t
o n t h i s . I f w e c a n h a v e r e g a r d to p a g e 1 9 6 .

Page 29 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

196.

In p a r a g r a p h 3 . 1 .2 i t s a y s w h a t y o u

have stated.
“ T h e f ir s t r e p o r t w a s c o m p il e d b y K h u b a w i t h t h e
a s s is t a n c e o f M o u k a n g w e a n d t h e g u i d a n c e o f
M o s i n g a n d M o le t s i . I n t h e s e c t io n w e e l u c id a t e t h e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s

under

w h ic h

produced

Khuba

and

by

this

report

Moukangwe.

was
Our

e x p l a n a t io n o f t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s u n d e r w h ic h th is
10

r e p o r t w a s p r o d u c e d is b a s e d o n t h e i n te r v i e w s
c o n d u c t e d w i th K h u b a , M o u k a n g w e a n d M o s in g . ”
B u t th e n t h e y s t a te t h i s :
“ I t is i m p o r ta n t t o s t a t e t h a t t h e S p e c ia l Pr o j e c ts
D i v is io n in t h e O ffi c e o f t h e N D P P w a s t a s k e d t o
p r o v i d e g u id a n c e t o K h u b a a n d M o u k a n g w e d u r i n g
t h e c o u r s e o f th e ir i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

The Special

P r o je c ts D i v i s i o n i s h e a d e d b y M o s in g a s s is t e d b y
M o le t s i . T h e r o l e o f M o s i n g a n d M o l e t s i w a s n e v e r
t o m a k e a d e c is i o n o n w h e t h e r to p r o s e c u t e o r n o t. ”
20

C a n y o u c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h is p a r t i t is - i t i s v e r y

m is le a d i n g b e c a u s e m y e x p e r i e n c e w h e n I d e a l w i t h p r o s e c u t o r s w h o
a r e g u id in g t h e c a s e q u it e o f te n t h e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o w i ll t a k e t h e
d e c is i o n o n t h e m a t t e r a n d t h e y m o d e l o u t t h a t c a s e in t e r m s o f w h a t
t h e y c a n r e a ll y p r o v e in c o u r t .

Page 30 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
N o w t h is a l s o c o m e s to t h e is s u e o f t h e g u i d a n c e o f th e
r e p o r t t o s a y h e r e t h e y in d ic a t e t h a t t h e - A d v o c a t e s M o s i n g a n d
M o le t s i w e r e g u i d i n g t h i s r e p o r t b u t th e tr u th o f t h e m a t te r is th a t i t is
I P I D t h a t n e e d s to m a k e th a t r e p o r t w i t h o u t t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f a n y
a d v o c a t e fr o m t h e N PA b e c a u s e i t is li k e w h e n I a m w r i ti n g a le t t e r t o
y o u b u t y o u w r it e a l e tt e r t o y o u r s e l f.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Yo u

are

c o m m u n ic a ti n g

to

yourself.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o it w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a n

in d e p e n d e n t o n e b u t I h a v e a lr e a d y g iv e n a j u s ti f ic a t i o n b e c a u s e o f t h e
c lo s e n e s s w e h a d .

I t j u s t b e c a m e s o n o r m a l th a t i t f le w t h a t t h e y

started commenting and …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h o - w h o s a i d t h a t M r M o s i n g w a s th e p e r s o n

w h o w a s g o i n g t o g u i d e t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ? W h o c a m e w i t h t h a t - fr o m
w h o m d id y o u h e a r th a t fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

F o r t h e f ir s t ti m e w h e n I h a d a

m e e ti n g w i th C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e a t E m p e r o r s P l a c e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t m e e ti n g w a s a i m e d a t h i m

e x p l a i n in g t o m e t h e in v e s ti g a t io n h e d i d , w h a t w a s o u ts t a n d in g , w h a t
needed to be done.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o t h a t is w h e n h e s a id t h e r e

Page 31 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a r e p r o s e c u t o r s w h o a r e a lr e a d y g u i d i n g t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d h e g a v e
m e t h e ir n a m e a n d t h e ir n u m b e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M r M o s in g w a s o n e o f t h e m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d d i d y o u i n it i a t e c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n t h e t w o

o f y o u o r d id h e c a l l y o u a t s o m e s t a g e o r is th a t s o m e t h i n g y o u c a n n o t
remember?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e o n e - o n c e I
w a s g iv e n t h e n u m b e r I c a ll e d h i m .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u c o n fir m e d fr o m h i m t h a t h e w a s - h e h a d a
r o l e i n th is in v e s t i g a t io n a n d th a t r o l e w a s t o g u i d e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r I

c o n fir m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t I i n d ic a t e d th a t I a m n o w

in v e s t i g a t in g th is c a s e w h ic h I h e a r d t h a t h e w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

H e w a s - h e w a s d e a l i n g w i th

a n d th e n w e s c h e d u l e d a m e e t i n g fr o m t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y a n d th a t i s h o w y o u t h e n c o o p e r a te d

t h r o u g h o u t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t t h e fi r s t t i m e t h a t y o u w e r e i n v o l v e d i n a n - in

Page 32 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n u n d e r I P I D w h e r e a m e m b e r o f t h e N PA w a s p la y i n g a n
a c ti v e r o le d u r i n g t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

No.

I - I think there was a - a

c e r t a i n i n v e s ti g a t i o n l ik e t h e C a t o M a n o r w h i c h I in d i c a t e d t h a t I
in v e s t i g a t e d f ir s t . Th a t is w h e n I s t a r t e d t o k n o w A d v o c a t e M o s in g b u t
a t t h a t ti m e w e p u t d o c k e ts t o g e t h e r a n d h e t o ld u s w h a t n e e d e d to b e
d o n e b u t I t h i n k I h a d o n ly o n e o r t w o m e e t in g s w i t h h i m .
Then
10

after

A d v o c a t e M a th e n j w a .

that

th e y

put

another

person

who

was

S o A d v o c a t e M a t h e n j w a c a m e a t a ti m e w h e n I

w a s a lr e a d y o n e x i t. T h e n I h a d t o m e e t w it h h i m . T h a t is t h e a d v o c a t e
w h o w a s v e r y, v e r y c l o s e w h o w a s t e ll in g t h e m o n a d a il y b a s i s w h a t to
d o b u t m o s t o f t h e a c t iv i t i e s I c a n n o t r e a l l y a t t e s t t o b e c a u s e I u s e d t o
g e t a t e le p h o n e c a l l fr o m t h e t e a m m e m b e r s .
W e s t ill h a d a li n k e v e n t h o u g h I w a s n o t t h e r e . Th e y w o u ld
t e ll m e w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . S o m e I u s e d t o a d v ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r K h u b a i f y o u c o u l d th e n h a v e a l o o k a t

p a g e 2 0 0 p a r a g r a p h 3 . 1 .2 1 .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : P a g e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h is is a n o t h e r i s s u e t h a t y o u - y o u d e a l t w i t h
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ex t e n s i v e ly y e s t e r d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Page - page 200.

Page 33 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 200.
CHAIRPERSON: What paragraph?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 3 . 1 .2 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u g o t i t Mr K h u b a - th e p a r a g r a p h ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I g o t i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: It says here:
“ A c c o r d i n g t o K h u b a t h e fir s t r e p o r t w a s s u b m i tt e d
a s a fi n a l r e p o r t a n d th e y e x p e c t e d t h e N PA t o t a k e
f u r th e r a c ti o n a s r e q u i r e d b y l a w o n t h e b a s is o f

10

t h e ir r e c o m m e n d a t io n s e t o u t th e r e i n . ”
C a n y o u c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t. T h e - d u r in g th e
in t e r v ie w a s I i n d ic a te d …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll M s W e n tz e l t h a t w o u l d fo r m p a r t o f w h a t h e i s

going to deal with.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u t i t i s o n l y th a t h e w a s d e b a t i n g y e s t e r d a y.
20

H e s a i d h e w a s p a r ty t o d r a f ti n g th e I P I D s t a tu t e a n d h e s a id i n t e r m s
of

that

s t a tu t e

th e y

are

not

required

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s th a t I P I D s e n d s t h e m .

by

law

to

take

the

Th a t - i f y o u r e m e m b e r h e

s a i d t h e r e w a s t h is d is t in c t i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u h a v e a l o o k a t - a t t h e s ta t u te ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a c tu a l ly d i d n o t g e t a c h a n c e a s y e t b e c a u s e

Page 34 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
I have been trying to do that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I s u g g e s t y o u h a v e a l o o k a t i t fi r s t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u a s k h i m …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e t h a t w ill b e m u c h m o r e h e l p f u l .

I saw

s o m e t h i n g q u o t e d i n t h e - in t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t w h i c h m a y b e
r e l e v a n t t o w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g a n d it m i g h t - I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d it to
b e c o n s is t e n t w i th w h a t h e s a id b u t h e w ill g e t a c h a n c e t o d e a l w i t h
10

everything that refers to him here in the report by way of an - of an
a ffi d a v i t a n d h e w i ll h a v e a c h a n c e - h e w i ll h a v e h a d a c h a n c e to
r e fl e c t o n e v e r y t h i n g a n d p r o b a b l y h e w ill n e e d t o c o m e b a c k a f te r
s u b m i tt i n g th a t a ffi d a v it a n d t h e n h e d e a ls o p e n l y w i t h a l l o f t h e s e
is s u e s .
S o - s o i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t a s f a r a s th e r e p o r t i s c o n c e r n e d
w e s h o u l d n o t g o f u r th e r. L e t h i m g o a n d …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o t h a t h o m e w o r k . S u b m i t t h a t a ff id a v i t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n w e w il l c a ll h i m a g a i n .

Th e n h e c a n d e a l w i t h

a l l o f t h e s e is s u e s a n d in th e m e a n t i m e a l s o Mr M c Br i d e a n d Mr S e s o k o
c a n d o t h e s a m e b u t a s f a r a s o t h e r m a t t e r s a r e c o n c e r n e d I t h in k y o u
c a n s t ill a s k o th e r q u e s ti o n s if t h e r e a r e o th e r m a t t e r s o t h e r th a n t h e
c o n te n ts o f t h e r e p o r t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I t w a s o n ly w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e …

Page 35 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e r e p o r t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Cellphone records …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u t I w i ll d e a l w it h t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h e n h e te s ti fi e s a g a i n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

No that is fine.

W o u l d th a t th e n p la c e u s a

s t a g e w h e r e I c a n r e le a s e h i m …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r n o w ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o t q u it e y e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t - j a , o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: But …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th o u g h t y o u s a i d th e r e w a s n o th i n g e ls e . I t w a s j u s t
t h e r e p o r t y o u w a n te d t o d e a l w i t h .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o . I - I j u s t n e e d a f e w is s u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t t h a t is fi n e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a m n o t g o i n g i n a l o t o f d e t a i l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n - y o u c a n d e a l w it h th e m , ja .

20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

W e k n o w th a t W e r k s m a n s

r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t y o u , M c Br id e a n d S e s o k o b e c r i m in a l ly c h a r g e d fo r
d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u s ti c e o r o b s tr u c t in g t h e a d m in is tr a ti o n o f j u s ti c e
a n d th a t d is c i p l in a r y c h a r g e s b e b r o u g h t a g a in s t y o u i n y o u r c a p a c it y
as employees.
N o w y o u w ill d e a l w it h th e r e p o r t a n d y o u w il l d e a l w i t h t h a t

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .

If y o u c a n g o n o w t o p a r a g r a p h 8 7 o n p a g e 2 7 o f

your report …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f h is a ff i d a v i t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O f - o f h is a ffi d a v it . I a m s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 2 7 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e r e i t is s a i d t h a t :
“Around
10

November 2014

Mr Sesoko,

M r M c Br i d e

a n d I h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e r e fe r e n c e g r o u p
a p p o i n t e d b y th e M i n is t e r. ”
C o u ld y o u j u s t e x p la i n w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t m e e t i n g a n d
w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f te r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W e h a d th e m e e t in g w i th th e

r e fe r e n c e g r o u p a n d th e y i n d ic a te d th a t th e y w e r e s e t u p b y t h e
M i n is t e r t o l o o k i n t o p o lic in g m a t t e r s .

One of the members of the

r e fe r e n c e g r o u p w a s k n o w n t o m e b e c a u s e I w a l k e d w it h h i m s u m m a r ily
in K Z N in v e s t i g a t in g C a t o M a n o r a n d t h a t i s A d v o c a t e M a t h e n j w a .
H e g a v e m e a c a ll t h e o t h e r d a y a f te r t h e m e e ti n g a n d h e s a i d
20

t o m e h e w a n ts th e c o p i e s o f t h e r e n d i ti o n d o c k e t . H e w a s m e n t i o n in g
it in a - lik e a s i f h e w a s d e m a n d in g i t b u t I - I n e v e r h a d a p r o b le m w i t h
t h a t b e c a u s e w e h a d s o m e d e a l in g s i n t h e p a s t .

Probably he was so

fr e e t o - t o t a lk t o m e .
I r e f u s e d a n d I t o l d h i m a n d I s til l r e m e m b e r I w a s n o , n o y o u
n e e d t o s p e a k w i th …

Page 37 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: And what did he say?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e s a i d i t is o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

C o u l d y o u t h e n d e a l w it h y o u r s u s p e n s i o n

w h ic h y o u s t a r t t o d e a l w i t h fr o m p a r a g r a p h 8 8 o f y o u r r e p o r t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

C h a ir p e r s o n i n - i n M a y 2 0 1 5

t h a t w a s 2 1 M a y I r e c e iv e d a le t t e r o f p r e c a u ti o n a r y s u s p e n s i o n s i g n e d
b y t h e th e n A c t i n g E x e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r M r K g a m a n y a n e . T h e l e tt e r w a s
s e r v e d t o m e b y M s N e ts ia n d a . T h a t w a s a ft e r M c B r i d e w a s s u s p e n d e d
around March 2015.
Now she gave me a telephonic call and told me that she
w a n t e d t o s e r v e t h e s u s p e n s i o n le t t e r a n d a p p a r e n tl y t h e M i n i s te r
w a n t e d m e t o r e c e iv e t h a t le t t e r.
she was driving.
20

N o w a t th a t t i m e s h e in d i c a t e d t h a t

I t w a s v e r y l a t e a n d I k n e w t h a t s h e w a s g o i n g to

c o v e r b e t w e e n 2 0 0 o r 2 5 0 t o 3 0 0 k il o m e tr e s t o a r r iv e i n P o lo k w a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n s h e - w h e n y o u s a y a t t h a t t i m e th a t - w h ic h
I - I ta k e - I a s s u m e y o u m e a n a t th e t i m e s h e p h o n e d y o u . Yo u s a y i t
w a s v e r y l a t e . A r o u n d w h a t ti m e w o u l d y o u t h in k i t w a s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I th i n k i t m i g h t h a v e b e e n a r o u n d
t h r e e o r 4 o ’ c l o c k b e c a u s e s h e w a s l e a v i n g P r e to r i a I th in k a r o u n d th a t

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . To - t o g o t o L i m p o p o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. C o n ti n u e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d t h e n I s a id it is f i n e .

W h a t e v e r t i m e y o u a r r iv e I a m g o in g t o w a i t f o r y o u a n d t h e n I - t h e c a l l
w a s r e c o r d e d . I a ls o s e n t i t t o t h e c o m p a n y t h a t tr a n s c r i b e d i t a n d s h e
a ls o d e p o s e d a s t a te m e n t c o n fir m i n g th a t b e c a u s e I m a d e h e r to li s t e n
t o t h e c a ll . I s ti ll r e m e m b e r t h e d a y I m a d e h e r l is t e n . S h e j u s t s a i d
10

y o u a r e a w i tc h . W h y d i d y o u r e c o r d m e ? S o …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d s a i d I a m p u t ti n g h e r a t a

v e r y d i ff ic u l t p o s i t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d I s a id e v e n i f y o u d o n o t

g iv e a s ta t e m e n t I h a v e y o u r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r r e c o r d i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t t h e s ta t e m e n t w a s n o t g iv e n
d ir e c t t o m e . I th i n k s h e d i d a c o n fi r m a to r y t o e i th e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M c B r i d e o r M r S e s o k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e r e s h e s a i d th e M in is te r w a n t e d y o u t o r e c e iv e
t h e le t t e r o f s u s p e n s io n t h a t d a y w a s th a t c a p tu r e d i n t h e r e c o r d in g a s

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
w e ll ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

suspend you was

D o y o u h a v e a n y i d e a w h y i f th e d e c is io n to

th a t o f t h e A c t i n g

Ex e c u t iv e D ir e c to r

namely

M r K g a m a n y a n e w h y t h e M in is t e r w o u ld h a v e a n i n t e r e s t th a t y o u
r e c e i v e t h e l e t te r o f s u s p e n s i o n o n t h a t d a y ? W h a t d id t h a t h a v e t o d o
with him?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I ’ m n o t r e a lly s u r e , b u t s e e i n g

p r e v i o u s ly I h a d r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m t h e M i n is t e r, I r e a lis e d t h a t
10

p r o b a b ly

that

th e

a c ti n g

E x e c u t iv e

Director

was

ju s t

b e i n g … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s ju s t b e i n g a n i n s tr u m e n t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n i n s tr u m e n t t o a c h i e v e t h a t

g o a l.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e s e w e r e d e c i s i o n s b e i n g t a k e n b y t h e M i n is te r ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t a n d p r o b a b l y t o

a d d o n th a t C h a ir p e r s o n , if I h a d n o t h a d a n e x p e r i e n c e w h e r e th e
M i n is t e r c a ll e d m e d ir e c tl y i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a n o t h e r is s u e , b u t
because
20

he

had

called

me,

I

r e a l is e d

th a t

these

th i n g s

a b o v e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e E x e c u t iv e D i r e c t o r i t ’s n o

lo n g e r t h e i n t e r e s t o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t t h e r e is s o m e w h e r e w h e r e t h e ir
in t e r e s t is b e i n g s a i d a n d I w a s n o t a w a r e o f t h a t – w h a t k in d o f
in t e r e s t t h e y w e r e s a y i n g .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i f y o u h a d n o t -

y o u s a y if y o u h a d n o t

r e c e i v e d t h is c a ll – t h e c a l l fr o m t h e M in is t e r d ir e c tly e a r li e r o n i t w o u l d
h a v e b e e n a n o t h e r is s u e , w h a t d o y o u m e a n , h o w w o u l d y o u h a v e ta k e n
t h is i n te r e s t o f t h e M i n i s t e r i n y o u b e i n g s e r v e d w i t h a le t t e r o f
s u s p e n s i o n o n a p a r tic u la r d a y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o r m a lly I w o u l d n o t r e a lly h a v e
– I would have doubted the words of the person.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t n e c e s s a r i ly, I w o u l d th o u g h t
10

t h a t p r o b a b ly s h e ’s ju s t tr y i n g to m a k e th e s i t u a t io n b i g , s o t h a t I fe e l
c o m p e l l e d to c o o p e r a t e b u t th e p r e v i o u s c a l l, I r e a l is e d w h a t I w a s
d e a li n g w it h .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n a n d I k n o w I’ m ju m p i n g

n o w, t h e l e t te r o f s u s p e n s i o n w a s s i g n e d b y M r K g a m a n y a n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Suspending you.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r, M is s N i ts iy a n d a w h o c a m e t o

s e r v e i t – w h o c a ll e d y o u t o s a y h e h a d a le t t e r t o g i v e to y o u s a id th a t
20

t h e M i n is t e r w a n te d th is l e t te r s e r v e d o n y o u o n t h e p a r tic u la r d a y, is
t h a t r ig h t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d – o k a y a n d y o u s a y w h e n th e c a l l c a m e i t w a s

a r o u n d – it m u s t h a v e b e e n a r o u n d th r e e i n t h e a f t e r n o o n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u s a i d y o u w o u l d w a i t f o r h e r.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y c o n t in u e .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o p a g e 2 5 … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

I ’ m s o r r y I t h i n k h e – y o u d o n ’ t w a n t h i m to c o n ti n u e

h o w M is s N i ts i y a n d a t h e n r e a c h e d L i m p o p o a n d s e r v e d f ir s t o r i s t h e r e
s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u w a n t to d e a l w i th b e f o r e t h a t?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t’s a b o u t e x a c t l y w h a t h e ’s t e s t if y i n g n o w, I

w a n t to s h o w h i m t h e tr a n s c r ip t o f t h is c o n v e r s a t io n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

If you could have regard to page 253.

CHAIRPERSON: 253?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , n o w th is i s n o t a c e r ti f ie d t r a n s c r i p t ,

y o u ’v e s a id y o u r e c o r d e d t h is , w h e n w a s th is t r a n s c r i b e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t w a s tr a n s c r ib e d – I d i d i t in

P o lo k w a n e b u t i t w a s – I t h i n k i t w a s s o m e w e e k s a f t e r t h e i n c i d e n t i t
t o o k a b i t o f ti m e b e f o r e – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly w h e n b u t it w a s
s o m e t i m e a f t e r t h is c a l l b u t I d id it in P o lo k w a n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

A n d d id y o u p e r s o n a ll y t r a n s c r i b e i t?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ye s a n d I t h i n k I c a n g o t o th e

c o m p a n y a n d g e t a n y r e c o r d p r o b a b ly r e g a r d i n g t h is m a t te r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O k a y i t’s a ls o c o n fir m e d i n a n a ff i d a v i t b y

M is s N i ts i y a n d a b u t i f w e c a n j u s t h a v e a lo o k a t w h a t i s s a i d a t li n e
1 0 - w e l l l e t’s s ta r t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g , s h e s a y s ,
“ Ye s M r K h u b a , h o w a r e y o u , I’ m f in e o k a y I’v e b e e n a s k e d

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
[i n a u d ib le ] w h e r e a r e y o u , I m u s t c o m e a n d s e r v e y o u w it h a
le t t e r.

O k a y I’ m in P o l o k w a n e .

Yo u a r e i n P o lo k w a n e ? Ye s .

B e c a u s e a p p a r e n t ly th e M i n i s t e r s a id t h a t y o u m u s t h a v e t h e
le t t e r to d a y a n d I a m s t il l i n th e o ffi c e w h ic h m e a n s I m u s t
d r i v e r i g h t n o w, w il l y o u w a i t fo r m e a n d th e n I w ill c a ll y o u
w h e n I a m c lo s e r s o th a t w e c a n m e e t s o m e w h e r e . Ye s , y e s .
O k a y n o t h a n k y o u s o m u c h fo r y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g .

Okay

thank, sure yes”,
A n d t h e n if w e h a v e r e g a r d t o a n a ff id a v it t h a t w a s d e p o s e d
10

t o … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, m a y b e ju s t i n c a s e w e d i d n ’ t a s k t h i s . Yo u

c o n fir m t h a t s u b s t a n ti a l ly t h i s tr a n s c r ip t r e fl e c ts t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t
t o o k p la c e b e t w e e n y o u a n d M is s N i ts iy a n d a ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r K h u b a i f y o u c a n th e n

lo o k a t a c o n f ir m a t o r y a ff id a v i t t h a t w a s d e p o s e d t o in th e d is c ip li n a r y
p r o c e e d i n g s i n th e m a t t e r b e t w e e n I P I D a n d M r S e s o k o o n p a g e 2 5 7
and at page 258 paragraph three, she says,
20

“ I c o n fir m i n a d d i ti o n t h a t u p o n r e c e iv in g in s tr u c ti o n s fr o m –
s o r r y I h e r e b y c o n f ir m s a m e i n s o fa r a s t h e y r e l a te to m e
r e g a r d in g c ir c u m s t a n c e s a r o u n d t h e h a n d l in g o f a l e tt e r t o Mr
Khuba.

I c o n f ir m in a d d i ti o n t h a t u p o n r e c e iv i n g in s tr u c ti o n s

fr o m th e c u r r e n t a c ti n g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r M r K g a m a n y a n e ,
h e s p e c i fic a l ly t o l d m e , i n n o u n c e r t a i n te r m s t h a t th e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a fo r e s a id l e t te r m u s t b e d e l iv e r e d to M r K h u b a t h a t s a m e d a y
a n d th a t th o s e w e r e t h e s p e c i fic in s t r u c t i o n s o f t h e M i n i s te r a t
I P I D w h e n w e r e f e r t o t h e t e r m M i n is t e r, i t is t h e M in is t e r
t h a t w e d u ly – th a t w e n o r m a l ly r e fe r t o . I d u ly

of

P o li c e

c o m p li e d w it h

th e

in s t r u c t i o n a n d c a l l e d M r K h u b a to a r r a n g e f o r d e l iv e r y o f t h e le t t e r a s
p r o p e r ly a r tic u l a t e d in t h e

A n n e x u r e t o M r S e s o k o ’s a ffi d a v i t

marked NS6”.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w is i t c o r r e c t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w M i s s W e n tz e l y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g e a r li e r o n

a b o u t, I t h in k i n r e s p o n s e t o w h i c h M r K h u b a m a y h a v e s a id t h a t h e
w o u ld n e e d t o g o b a c k to t h e p e o p l e w h o t r a n s c r i b e d th a t c o n v e r s a ti o n ,
o r d id I m is u n d e r s t a n d ? I n r e s p o n s e to w h ic h h e – I u n d e r s t o o d h i m t o
b e s a y i n g h e w o u l d g o to t h e p e o p le w h o m a d e t h e t r a n s c r i p ti o n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh yes.

W h a t w a s t h a t a b o u t, it s e e m s t o b e q u it e –

e s p e c i a l ly w i t h t h e a ff i d a v i t , I ’ m n o t s u r e i f w e n e e d a n y t h i n g fu r t h e r ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I d o n ’ t t h i n k w e p r o b a b l y n e e d a n y t h in g

f u r th e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j a I d o n ’ t t h i n k s o b e c a u s e t h e p e r s o n w h o h a d a
c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th M r K h u b a h a s c o n f ir m e d i n a n a ffi d a v i t t h e r e le v a n t
part.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 44 of 194

A f t e r y o u r e c e iv e d y o u r

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
n o t ic e o f s u s p e n s i o n d id y o u , t h e r e a f t e r p a r tic i p a t e in a d is c ip li n a r y
h e a r in g ?
CHAIRPERSON:

O r m a y b e l e t ’s c o n n e c t it t o w h e r e h e w a s b e f o r e w e

w e n t to t h e tr a n s c r i p t.

M is s N i ts i y a n d a l e f t Pr e to r i a a n d d r o v e to

P r e t o r i a t o s e r v e t h e l e tt e r o n y o u , is t h a t r ig h t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a s h e c a m e t o P o l o k w a n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

P o l o k w a n e y e s a n d s h e s e r v e d y o u w i t h th e l e t te r.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I n t h e c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t t h e tw o o f y o u m a y h a v e

had is there anything of importance that you want to mention?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W h a t s h e d i d w a s to a p p r e c ia t e

m y u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d a ls o c o m p r o m is i n g b e c a u s e I h a d t o fi t w it h in h e r
s c h e d u l e . I a ls o h a d to g a th e r a l l th e t h i n g s t h a t I h a d t o h a n d o v e r t o
h e r.

I h a d a la p to p , I h a d a 3 G c a r d , t h o s e t h in g s t h a t I w a s u s i n g I

h a d t o h a n d o v e r t h e i te m s a n d I s ti ll r e m e m b e r s h e a r r iv e d , i t w a s l a t e ,
very late.
CHAIRPERSON:

A r o u n d w h a t ti m e i n t h e e v e n in g ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r it ’s e i g h t

or nine but it was late.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

So

when

she

phoned

m e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l fr o m Pr e t o r i a t o L i m p o p o i s it n o t a b o u t t h r e e

h o u r s o r is i t t w o h o u r s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t’s a r o u n d th r e e h o u r s b u t I d o

Page 45 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
n o t k n o w w h a t c a u s e d fu r t h e r d e l a y b e c a u s e w h e n s h e c a m e , I s a w s h e
w a s w i th h e r h u s b a n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o I r e a li s e d p r o b a b l y s h e m i g h t
h a v e g o n e h o m e f ir s t b u t s h e c a m e l a t e t o P o lo k w a n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t o t h e r t h a n t h a t t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g o f c o n s e q u e n c e

t h a t tr a n s p ir e d in t h e c o n v e r s a t io n w h e n y o u m e t w i t h h e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
could not talk.
10

N o a n d a ls o f r o m m y s id e , I

Fo r m e i t w a s – I w a s n o t s e t tl e d b e c a u s e i t w a s m y

fir s t t i m e in m y 1 6 o r 1 7 y e a r s ’ c a r e e r in t h e I P I D t o b e g e tt i n g
t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

A s u s p e n s i o n l e tt e r.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a s o I w a s r e a lly u n s e t t le d , s o I
c o u l d n o t r e a ll y f o r m u l a t e a n y d is c u s s i o n a b o u t a n y t h in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d t h e le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n o r d id t h e n e w s t h a t

y o u ’r e b e in g s u s p e n d e d c o m e a s a s h o c k t o y o u o r n o t r e a ll y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

It was a shock, it was a big

shock.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y th a n k y o u , h a v e w e g o t t h e l e t t e r o f

suspension here?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e h a v e .

L e t’s g o th r o u g h it .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n i s A n n e x u r e H I K 1 5 ,

if y o u j u s t b e a r w i th m e I d o n ’ t s e e m t o h a v e p u t a r e f e r e n c e i t w i ll b e
2 5 0 s o m e t h in g .

I t ’s p a g e 3 8 2 , M r K h u b a is t h a t y o u r l e tt e r o f

Page 46 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
suspension?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s C o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u h a v e a lo o k a t t h e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

W e ll I t h in k it a p p e a r s fr o m th e f ir s t p a r a g r a p h o f

t h e le t t e r th a t w e m i g h t h a v e s k i p p e d a s t e p e a r l i e r.

P r i o r to y o u

r e c e i v i n g th e l e tt e r o f s u s p e n s io n d id y o u r e c e iv e a le t t e r i n te r ms o f
w h ic h y o u w e r e a s k e d t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w h y y o u s h o u ld n o t b e
suspended.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d d id y o u c o n s u l t w i t h a t t o r n e y s w h o h e l p e d

y o u t o p r e p a r e s u c h r e p r e s e n ta t io n s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d y o u s u b m i t t e d t h e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s t o M r

Kgamanyane?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

Ye s , a n d th e l e t te r t h a t h a d a s k e d y o u to m a k e

t h o s e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s h a d c o m e fr o m M r K g a m a n y a n e , t h e l e t te r t h a t
a s k e d y o u t o m a k e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s , d i d i t c o m e fr o m h i m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a a l l t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e I th in k
20

t h e y w e r e c o m in g fr o m M r K g a m a n y a n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s I g e t t h e i m p r e s s io n i n m a k i n g t h a t p o in t

y o u a r e e m p h a s i s i n g t h a t t h e d e c is i o n s m ig h t n o t h a v e c o m e f r o m h i m
b u t t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w a s c o m i n g fr o m h i m .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t , y o u t h i n k t h e d e c i s i o n s w e r e c o m in g

Page 47 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
fr o m w h e r e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I

think

the

d e c is i o n s

were

c o m i n g fr o m p e o p le o u t s i d e t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d i n t h i s c a s e I s u s p e c t
t h e M i n i s t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a l r i g h t , d id - a n d M is s W e n t z e l h a v e y o u g o t

t h a t l e t te r h e r e , t h e l e tt e r t h a t p r e c e d e d t h e l e tt e r o f s u s p e n s io n ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I d o n ’ t b e l i e v e s o b u t I w il l v e r i fy.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e w e s h o u l d a ls o h a v e a c o p y o f t h e

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t h e m a d e .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W e d o n ’ t h a v e th e m e it h e r h e r e ?

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o C h a i r I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r s e e i n g i t m y s e lf .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u ld y o u h a v e t h a t l e t t e r s o m e w h e r e a n d t h e

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s s o m e w h e r e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t h i n k i f I t r y C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n

a ls o g e t it fr o m t h e l a w y e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a fr o m y o u r l a w y e r.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Because he might be having

…[intervenes].
20

CHAIRPERSON:

J a tr y a n d g e t t h o s e a n d s e n d t h e m t o th e l e g a l

t e a m b e c a u s e i t w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t to s e e w h a t w a s s a id i n t h a t le t t e r t o
w h ic h y o u n e e d e d t o r e s p o n d a n d t o a l s o s e e h o w y o u r e s p o n d e d in
o r d e r t o e v a l u a t e t h e d e c is io n – t h e d e c is i o n t o g o a h e a d a n d s u s p e n d
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

In paragraph 91 page 28

o f y o u r s t a te m e n t , y o u s a y th a t o n th e 1 9 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 y o u d e p o s e d

Page 48 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t o a s u p p o r ti n g a ffi d a v i t i n th e H ig h C o u r t in t h e m a t t e r b e tw e e n M r
M c Br i d e a n d th e M in is t e r o f P o l ic e , c o u l d y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o p a g e 2 6 0
a n d c o n f ir m w h e th e r th is is t h e s u p p o r ti n g a ffi d a v it th a t y o u r e f e r r e d
to?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d C h a ir it is a l s o i n t h is s u p p o r ti n g a ff id a v i t
t h a t c e r ta i n is s u e s a n d a s p e c ts i n – w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e W e r k s m a n s
r e p o r t a r e d e a l t w i t h b u t t h a t w e w il l c a n v a s a t a la t e r s t a g e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , n o t h a t ’s f in e .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Then on the 7th of July 2015 you were

s e r v e d w it h a n o t ic e t o a tt e n d a d i s c i p li n a r y e n q u ir y a n d t h a t a p p e a r s
a t p a g e 2 8 4 , i s t h a t c o r r e c t, is th a t th e n o t ic e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s th e o n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Could

you

please

tell

the

C h a ir

what

h a p p e n e d a t th a t d is c i p l in a r y i n q u i r y ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o y o u w e r e c a l le d t o a d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir y a n d

e ffe c tiv e l y a s e n io r c o u n s e l A d v o c a t e W i ll ia m M o k a r e S C a n d a j u n io r
c o u n s e l M r T h e m b e t h a N k a t u b e [? ] in s tr u c t e d b y M o r g a n L o u r e n s
A t t o r n e y s w e r e a p p o in t e d e ff e c t iv e ly t o b e t h e p r o s e c u to r s to p r o s e c u t e
20

y o u i n t h e d is c i p l in a r y in q u ir y, is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

H a d t h e r e b e e n a n y d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u i r i e s o f I P I D

p e r s o n n e l b e fo r e – b e f o r e h e d is c ip li n a r y in q u i r i e s o f y o u r s e l f a n d M r
M c Br i d e a n d M r S e s o k o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Page 49 of 194

I

think

there

were

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
b u t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d t h e y – d i d I P I D a l w a y s b r i n g s e n i o r c o u n s e l to

p r o s e c u t e i t s s ta ff in d i s c i p li n a r y i n q u ir i e s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W h a t I c a n s a y C h a ir p e r s o n is

t h a t t h e o n e t h a t I r e m e m b e r I d o n ’ t th i n k – t h e y d i d n o t b r i n g t h e
p e r s o n w h o is a t t h is le v e l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I m e a n s e n i o r c o u n s e l is v e r y h i g h l e v e l o f a n

A d v o c a t e s o m e b o d y w h o h a s – u s u a ll y w h o h a s b e e n a n A d v o c a t e fo r
m a n y y e a r s a n d s o m e b o d y w h o is v e r y g o o d a n d s o m e b o d y a l s o w h o
10

d o e s n ’t c o m e c h e a p .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

C h a ir p e r s o n I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t ,

b u t I t h i n k I l o o k e d a t i t t o s a y, i f r e a l ly y o u w a n t t o d r a w b lo o d f r o m t h e
s t o n e y o u n e e d e x p e r ts p r o b a b ly b e c a u s e y o u g e t y o u r n o r m a l p e o p l e ,
t h e y m a y n o t b e a b l e t o a c h i e v e t h a t w i th e a s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t is y o u r a n s w e r t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n d i s c i p li n a r y

in q u ir ie s i n v o lv i n g I P I D p e r s o n n e l b e f o r e t h is a n d t h e o r g a n is a ti o n h a d
b r o u g h t o u ts i d e l a w y e r s b u t n o t a t t h e le v e l o f s e n io r c o u n s e l , i s t h a t
w h a t y o u ’r e s a y in g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e r e t h e y
20

b r o u g h t a h e a v y w e ig h t l ik e t h i s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a h e a v y w e i g h t b u t d i d t h e y a l w a y s o r o f te n o r

s o m e t i m e s b r i n g a n o u ts id e l a w y e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

It

was

not

o ft e n

but

a ls o

c o n s i d e r in g t h a t o u r d e p a r t m e n t , m o r e e s p e c i a lly o n a h ig h e r le v e l , y o u
d o n ’t r e a l ly g e t a l o t o f m is c o n d u c t c a s e s .

Page 50 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w o u l d b e o n c e a f t e r a w h i l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

The

ones

that you

c a n r e m e m b e r, n a m e ly

d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir i e s t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d b e f o r e y o u r o n e a n d M r
M c Br i d e ’s o n e a n d M r S e s o k o ’s o n e y o u w o u ld th i n k w o u l d h a v e b e e n
h o w m a n y m o r e o r le s s th a t y o u c a n r e m e m b e r t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d , t w o ,
t h r e e , m o r e o r l e s s e v e n i f i t ’s n o t a n e x a c t n u m b e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

There was one which was done

f o r t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s i n a Pr o v in c i a l H e a d f o r K Z N a n d t h e o n e w h i c h
10

w a s d o n e f o r t h e P r o v in c i a l H e a d o f E a s t e r n C a p e b u t t h e s e , I d o n ’ t
t h i n k th e y b r o u g h t a n y s e n i o r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n y s e n io r la w y e r fr o m o u t s i d e ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n y s e n io r la w y e r b e c a u s e w e

a r e v e r y e c o n o m ic a l w i t h o u r b u d g e t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r th e y b r o u g h t a n y

la w y e r fr o m o u t s i d e a t a ll o r o n ly i n t e r n a l p e o p le w e r e u s e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th a t

one

I

cannot

r e a l ly … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B e c a u s e t h a t ’s th e i m p o r t a n t p a r t , w h e t h e r i t w a s

t h e f ir s t t i m e t h a t o u t s i d e l a w y e r s w e r e b r o u g h t t o – in r e g a r d t o
d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir ie s w h e n y o u r i n q u i r y, M r S e s o k o ’s i n q u ir y, M r
M c Br i d e ’s i n q u ir y h a p p e n e d o r w h e t h e r i t w a s n o t t h e fi r s t t i m e b u t i t
h a d h a p p e n e d b e f o r e b u t r a r e ly b u t e v e n t h e n n o t s e n i o r la w y e r s s u c h
a s th e s e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I r e m e m b e r m o s t e s p e c ia ll y o n

Page 51 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t h e K Z N o n e b e c a u s e i t w a s c o i n c i d i n g w i t h t h e ti m e w h e n I w a s g o in g
t o a s s i s t th e P r o v i n c e b u t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t w a s th e le v e l o f t h a t
p e r s o n , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y d u r i n g t h e i n te r v a l t h a t i s g o i n g t o b e t h e r e

b e f o r e y o u c o m e b a c k , p l e a s e f i n d o u t t h a t i n f o r m a t io n , h o w m a n y
d is c i p l i n a r y in q u ir i e s h a d t h e r e b e e n b e f o r e y o u r o n e a n d M r M c B r i d e ’s
o n e a n d M r S e s o k o ’s o n e , d i d i t i n v o lv e o u ts i d e l a w y e r s w h o w e r e
t h e r e , w h a t w a s t h e ir l e v e l a n d s o o n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Okay thank you.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u .

N o w j u s t f o r th e r e c o r d

A d v o c a t e M a k w a r i w a s t h e s a m e A d v o c a t e w h o y o u s a y, a m o n th o r t w o
p r i o r t o t h i s h a d a s k e d y o u t o d e p o s e t o a c o n f ir m a t o r y a ff id a v i t i n
f a v o u r o f t h e M in is t e r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

A n d th a t w a s i n p r o c e e d i n g s a g a i n s t M r

M c Br i d e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

N o w d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n th e d is c i p l i n a r y

p r o c e e d i n g s w e r e u l t i m a te ly h e l d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e d is c i p l in a r y i n q u ir y w a s h e l d
o n t h e 1 7 t h o f J u l y 2 0 1 5 b u t o n th a t d a y it w a s p o s t p o n e d , w e fi n a l ly
had it on the – it was set for the 13th, 14th and 17th of August and we
m a d e a n a p p lic a ti o n fo r s u s p e n s i o n o f th a t h e a r in g p e n d i n g o u tc o m e o f
t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t w h ic h w a s b r o u g h t a b o u t b y M c B r i d e a n d t h e

Page 52 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C h a ir p e r s o n d is m i s s e d t h a t a p p li c a t io n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e C h a i r p e r s o n w a s A d v o c a t e M o j a n a ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h i n k t h a t ’s t h e o n e , h e w a s th e
C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w w e fi n a l ly h a d i t o n t h e 2 2 n d
a n d 2 3 r d o f S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 5 . W h a t h a p p e n e d o n th a t p a r tic u la r d a y, M r
S e s o k o c o u l d n o t a v a i l h i ms e lf b e c a u s e h e w a s n o t w e ll .

Now they

requested that we need to separate this hearing so that they could have
10

some progress.

I was represented by Advocate Phooko, let me say I

m i g h t b e ju s t u s i n g t h e w o r d A d v o c a t e l o o s e ly b u t i t’s a la w y e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

H e ’s a l a w y e r s o h e w o u ld b e a n A d v o c a t e o r a n

a tt o r n e y y o u ’r e n o t s u r e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h a t,

w h il e w e w e r e t h e r e A d v o c a te M a k a r i w e n t o u t w i t h – h e r e q u e s te d my
la w y e r to s a y, le t ’s g o o u t a n d h a v e a d i s c u s s i o n .

I t w a s a ft e r t h e r e

w a s a n i s s u e o f s e p a r a ti n g t h e h e a r in g s . N o w w h e n t h e y w e n t o u t , h e
20

c a m e i n b u t Mr P h o o k o c a ll e d m e a n d h e s a y s , c o m e I w a n t to t a lk t o
y o u . T h e n I w e n t o u t a n d h e s a id t o m e – a n d I j u s t w a n t to in d i c a t e
h o w h e p u t i t , h e s a y s , t h e s e p e o p l e a r e p r o p o s in g t h a t w e n e e d t o
s e t tl e t h is c a s e a n d h e u s e d t h e w o r d – t h e y s a y i f y o u c o n ti n u e th e y ’r e
g o i n g t o fir e y o u , i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o s a y.
t h a t p a r t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

Page 53 of 194

Now

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y j u s t r e p e a t , h e s a i d , b r u i f y o u w h a t th e y ’r e

g o i n g t o f ir e y o u , th e y s a y i f w h a t t h e y ’ r e g o i n g t o fir e y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I f I c o n ti n u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

With the hearing?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

J a a n d le a d e v i d e n c e , t h e y a r e

g o i n g t o f ir e m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

So

t h e y ’r e

proposing

a … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y j u s t r e p e a t t h a t b e c a u s e it ’s i m p o r t a n t, y o u

s a i d s o m e t h i n g a b o u t n o m a t t e r w h a t , j u s t r e p e a t e x a c tl y h o w h e p u t i t
to you?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

He

said,

no

m a t te r

what

e v i d e n c e y o u a r e g o in g to l e a d t h e r e , th e y a r e n o t g o in g to ta k e it , th e y
a r e g o i n g to fi r e y o u . S o i t a ls o g a v e m e a b i t o f s u r p r is e o n th e b a s is
t h a t h e w a s o n e p e r s o n w h o w a s s a y i n g – h e w a s e n j o y in g d o i n g m y
c a s e , h e s a i d , th is o n e i t ’s ju s t g o i n g t o b e a w a l k i n t h e p a r k .
CHAIRPERSON:

A s y o u w e r e p r e p a r i n g f o r … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

I w a s p r e p a r i n g , I w a s t e ll in g

him.
CHAIRPERSON:

H e w a s c o n fi d e n t y e s .

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s v e r y, v e r y c o n fi d e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t n o w h e s a i d t h i s is w h a t t h e y ’r e s a y i n g .

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

H e s a id t h i s i s w h a t th e y a r e

s a y in g . N o w I h a d a v e r y l e n g t h y d i s c u s s io n a n d I s a i d , I t h in k I n e e d

Page 54 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t o t a lk to Mr S e s o k o . I g a v e h i m a c a ll s o m e t i m e s w e h a d a d i s c u s s io n
w i t h Mr S e s o k o ’s la w y e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d t h e d is c u s s i o n t h e r e w a s to
d is c u s s t h e is s u e o f h o w w e a r e g o in g to d o t h a t b e c a u s e i m m e d ia t e l y
w h e n h e s a i d th e y w e r e g o i n g t o fi r e m e I s t a r t e d t o p a n ic .
CHAIRPERSON: hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: Because when you receive such
ty p e o f i n fo r m a ti o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : Th e f ir s t th in g th a t y o u t h i n k i s
how are you going to pay for your car?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

H o w a r e y o u g o in g to p a y f o r

your house?
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Yo u s w i t c h o ff c o m p l e te ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
20

F r o m th e a m o u n t o f e v i d e n c e

that you can have.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

Because the fate has been

decided.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

N o w I tr i e d t o s p e a k t o Mr

Page 55 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
Sesoko and Mr Sesoko he was warning me.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To s a y h e d o e s n o t t h i n k th a t i t
is r i g h t i d e a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s e t tl e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To s e tt l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d h e a l s o i n d ic a t e d th a t o n c e
y o u s e t tl e th e y w il l ta k e y o u a s d is h o n e s t .
10

B e c a u s e y o u s e tt l e o n a

le v e l t h a t y o u a c c e p t t h is a n d y o u g o b a c k to w o r k . N o w I w e n t b a c k t o
m y la w y e r i t w a s l ik e t o a n d f r o . W e w e r e d is c u s s i n g tr y in g t o f in d o u t
– a n d my l a w y e r w a s t e lli n g m e , d o y o u w a n t t o k e e p y o u r j o b l e t u s
ju s t g e t t h e s e t h i n g s w r a p p e d u p . A n d h e w a s t e l li n g m e t h a t t h e w a y I
spoke with the council you are not going to make it. Whatever we are
g o i n g t o d o th e y a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i th y o u . N o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is is t h e s a m e l a w y e r w h o a s y o u a r e p r e p a r i n g
t o c o m e t h e d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g w a s s a y in g t h is is a w a lk i n th e p a r k .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a t h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s v e r y c o n fi d e n t ?

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: Now I then – I phoned my wife, I
p h o n e d m y u n c l e i t w a s a l l c a l ls a ll o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Tr y i n g t o g e t …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Tr y i n g t o g e t …

Page 56 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r p e o p l e ’s v ie w s a n d s o o n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

Now it came to a part where –

w h a t I d id …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h is s t a g e a s y o u w e r e m a k i n g th e s e c a ll s h a d y o u r
la w y e r t o l d y o u w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n o ffe r o n t h e t a b l e t h a t t h e y w e r e
p u t t in g – t h e s e – t h e e m p l o y e r w a s p u tt i n g o n t h e b a s is o f – o n t h e
b a s is o f w h i c h t h e y w e r e s a y i n g le t u s s e tt l e t h i s m a t t e r.
10

Or at that

s t a g e th e y j u s t w a n t e d t o fi n d o u t w h e t h e r in p r i n c ip l e y o u w o u ld b e
a g r e e a b l e t o t a lk i n s e t t l e m e n t b u t – a n d i f y o u w e r e a g r e e a b l e t h e y
w e r e s t il l g o i n g to c o m e u p w it h a n o ff e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e t o l d m e i m m e d i a te ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Ys.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t t h e y a r e g o i n g t o g iv e y o u
a warning.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A fi n a l w a r n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W r i t t e n w a r n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w a n d t h e r e w a s t h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y w h a t y o u w o u l d n e e d to a d m i t to in o r d e r
f o r t h e m to g iv e y o u a w a r n i n g o r w h a t it i s t h e y w a n t e d fr o m y o u ?
B e c a u s e I – I a s s u m e if y o u w e r e g o i n g t o g iv e – to b e g iv e n a w a r n in g

Page 57 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
y o u w e r e g o i n g to b e r e q u ir e d t o a d m i t t h a t y o u a r e g u il ty o f
something?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. What was that?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

H e s a i d I n e e d to m a k e a

s t a te m e n t a d m it t in g t o t h e w r o n g d o i n g o f t h e r e p o r t.
r e fu s e d fr o m t h e o n s e t.

A n d I s a id i t c a n n o t b e .

N o w th a t p a r t I

B e c a u s e I w i ll b e

ly i n g . I d i d n o t d o w h a t t h e y s a y I h a v e d o n e . N o w w h a t h e d i d h e a ls o
w e n t b a c k to [i n d i s t i n c t ] a n d t h e y d is c u s s e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t th e fo ll o w i n g d a y b e c a u s e I
e v e n s t o p p e d e v e r y t h in g th e r e a n d I s a i d I n e e d t o g o a n d s l e e p o n th is
is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e f ir s t d a y o f th e h e a r i n g .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

J a I s a id I w a s g o i n g to s l e e p .

They gave me a chance.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b e f o r e y o u – I t a k e i t t h e d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g w a s
a d j o u r n e d t o e n a b l e y o u t o g o a n d s le e p o v e r t h e m a t t e r. A r o u n d w h a t
ti m e o f t h e d a y w a s i t a f t e r y o u h a d b e e n m a k i n g c a l ls t o v a r i o u s
p e o p l e a n d th e r e h a v e b e e n d is c u s s i o n s b e tw e e n t h e A d v o c a t e s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s i n th e a f t e r n o o n .

Page 58 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON:

And they – and you had met at what time – in the

m o r n in g a t t h e d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r in g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r it

w a s n in e o r te n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t w a s in t h e m o r n i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s i n th e m o r n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: So…
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

But when it was towards or in

t h e a ft e r n o o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is w h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e y i n d ic a t e d th a t o k a y w e a r e
g o i n g t o g iv e y o u a n o p p o r t u n i ty g o a n d t h i n k a b o u t i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w I w e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e m a t t e r w a s a d j o u r n e d to t h e f o l lo w in g d a y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To t h e f o l lo w in g d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I w e n t t o t h e h o t e l I c o n ti n u e d

w i t h t h e c a l ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : As y o u – a s t h e p r o c e e d i n g s w e r e a d j o u r n e d a t w h a t
s t a g e w e r e t h e d is c u s s i o n s in t e r m s o f w h a t y o u n e e d e d t o d o i n o r d e r
t o s a y h a v e t h e m a t te r s e t tl e d .

N o w i n i ti a l ly th e y s a i d a c c o r d i n g t o

y o u r l a w y e r y o u w o u ld h a v e to a d m i t t o w r o n g d o i n g i n r e g a r d to t h e

Page 59 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
r e p o r t . D i d t h a t – h a d t h a t c h a n g e d t o s o m e t h i n g e ls e b y t h e ti m e y o u
adjourned or had that not changed as yet?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e y – i t h a d s li g h t ly c h a n g e d

b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e p r o p o s in g s o m e t h i n g . T h e y w e r e tr y i n g t o b e n d to
what I was…
C H A I R P E R S O N : To c o m p r o m is e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To c o m p r o m is e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e I s a i d I c a n n o t …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Admit to wrongdoing.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

And they were – they were

s li g h t ly m e n ti o n i n g t h e is s u e o f w h a t if w e d o a n a g r e e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e y w e r e s a y in g .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a a n a g r e e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t – w h a t w o u l d y o u g iv e – w h a t w e r e y o u

p r e p a r e d to g iv e i n o r d e r f o r t h e r e t o b e a n a g r e e m e n t to s e t tl e . Th e y
w e r e ta lk in g a lo n g – t h e y w e r e tr y i n g t o fi n d o u t if y o u w e r e n o t
20

p r e p a r e d t o a d m i t t o w r o n g d o in g w h a t i s it th a t y o u w e r e p r e p a r e d t o
admit?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Yo u c a n – th a t i s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t e v e n t h e is s u e o f th e

s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t th e y w e r e t h e o n e s w h o c a m e u p w i t h – b e c a u s e

Page 60 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t h a t w o r d w a s n o t e v e n i n m y m in d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

The one who came with it and

t h e y in d ic a t e d t h a t if w e d o a n a g r e e m e n t w h e r e t h i s is s u e is r e s o lv e d
w e w a n t y o u to c o m e b a c k to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d k e e p y o u r j o b .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

Yo u k e e p y o u r j o b , y o u c o m e

b a c k to w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: And I want to tell you when you
h a v e b e e n s u s p e n d e d f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e i n y o u r o v e r 2 0 y e a r s ’
e x p e r i e n c e in d i ff e r e n t s e c to r s o r i n g o v e r n m e n t I h a v e n e v e r m e t t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

To t e l l y o u t h e h o n e s t tr u t h m y

m i n d s w i tc h e d i n t o s u r v i v a l m o d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: And I said what do I do to save
m y f a m i ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

But I was not ready to

c o m p r o m is e th e i s s u e t h a t I w a s n o t g o i n g t o p u t a s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e a m a i n i n v e s ti g a to r I

k n o w y o u c a n n o t r e a lly p u t t h e s ta t e m e n t o n s a m e is s u e d i ff e r e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

B e c a u s e I s a i d t h is is t h e

p o s i ti o n b u t I n e e d t o k e e p m y j o b I w a n t m y jo b b a c k . N o w th e n I w e n t
t o th e h o te l a n d t h e n I c o n t in u e d w i th t h e c a l ls . A n d t h a t t i m e I w a s n o t
o n ly c o n f in e d t o – t o o n ly r e l a tiv e s .

I w a s c a l li n g e v e n th e fr i e n d s i n

g o v e r n m e n t , i n – w h o h a v e s e n io r p o s i t io n s b e c a u s e w e n o r m a lly k n o w
– c o m m u n ic a te a n d – a n d t h e y w e r e te ll i n g m e t h a t i f t h e y a r e g iv in g
y o u t h a t d e a l l e t m e t e ll y o u o n e t h i n g w it h o u r g o v e r n m e n t th e y a r e
g o i n g t o f ir e y o u t h e [i n d i s t i n c t ].

T h a t w a s o n e o f t h e fr ie n d s th a t i s

w h a t h e s a id t o m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e s a y w i t h t h is g o v e r n m e n t o f
o u r s w h e n t h e y w a n t t o g e t r id o f y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w il l g e t r i d o f y o u .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e y w i ll g e t r i d o f y o u . It d o e s
not matter what you do.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o n o w t h e y a r e g i v i n g y o u a l i fe
li n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e i t .

20

M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A t l e a s t y o u w il l – y o u w i ll c a r r y
t h is s h a m e j u s t f o r a b i t b u t y o u w il l c o m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Yo u w i ll b e b a c k a t w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w …

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e w e r e t h e s o r t o f a d v i s e s y o u w e r e g e t ti n g fr o m
people.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w a s g e t t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

Now then I – the following day

t h e n w e h a d t o e n g a g e i n t h e is s u e o f t h a t s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t . T h e y
w e n t a n d d r a f t e d i t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W e ll o v e r n i g h t w h e n y o u c a m e b a c k i n th e

m o r n in g w a s t h e r e s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u – h a d y o u m a d e u p y o u r m i n d
10

h o w y o u w a n t e d t o s o r t th is o u t o r y o u ju s t w a n t e d t h e d is c u s s i o n s t o
c o n ti n u e .
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : N o I h a d a lr e a d y d e c i d e d t h a t a s
lo n g a s w h a te v e r I a m g o i n g to s i g n i t is n o t g o i n g t o m a k e m e t o
c o m m i t p e r j u r y. T h a t is w h a t I t o l d m y s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : As l o n g a s I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t w a n t t o s a y a n y t h i n g t h a t w a s n o t tr u e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d m y w i fe w a s v e r y s u p p o r tiv e
o f th e f a c t t h a t i t is b e t t e r t o g o b a c k t o w o r k a n d r e a l ly c o n t in u e
s u s t a i n in g t h e f a m il y. N o w w h e n I w e n t b a c k t h e y d r a ft e d t h e – i t d i d
not take too long
CHAIRPERSON: An agreement.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

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An agreement.

Now the

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a g r e e m e n t t h e f ir s t p a g e i t w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y le t u s g o t o t h e a g r e e m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e a g r e e m e n t is a t p a g e 2 8 7 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 287?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : 2 8 7 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y c o n ti n u e t a lk in g I ju s t w a n t e d u s t o fi n d

w h e r e t h e a g r e e m e n t is fo r la t e r b u t I w a n t y o u t o c o n t in u e t o t a l k – t o
t e ll m e h o w th e d is c u s s i o n s w e n t u p t o t h e t i m e th a t t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s
10

s ig n e d .
MR

H U M B U LA N I

IN N O C E N T

KHUBA:

When

th e y

brought

the

a g r e e m e n t t h e – it w a s a lr e a d y t y p e d . T h e r e w a s a …
CHAIRPERSON: Was that – was that before you told them what you –
w h a t w o u l d b e a c c e p t a b le t o y o u ? B e c a u s e y o u m u s t h a v e c o m e b a c k
and your lawyer must have said what did you think or what do you
t h i n k ? Ar e y o u p r e p a r e d o r n o t p r e p a r e d a n d y o u m u s t h a v e t o ld h i m
something which he passed on to Mr Mokhari.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e y h a d s o m e th i n g t h a t h a s

a lr e a d y b e e n d r a f te d w h ic h I …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u c a m e ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

J a w h ic h I – w h e n I p o i n t e d

s o m e o f t h e t h in g s I d o n o t k n o w h o w i t w a s c h a n g e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
s m a ll e r o ffi c e t o s it a n d d is c u s s .

A n d th e n I w a s c a l l e d t o a

Now when it came back now we

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
d is c u s s e d a n d m y l a w y e r w a s h a p p y w i th it . H e w a s r e a l ly fi n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w i f y o u c h e c k t h e p a r t o f th e
a g r e e m e n t i t is w h e r e h e t a l k s a b o u t p l e a t o th e c h a r g e s a s p e r
d e p a r t m e n ta l h e a r i n g c h a r g e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t th e i s s u e t h e r e w h e n w e g o t
t h is – th is r e p o r t I w a s s t il l n o t c o m f o r ta b l e – I w a s s ti ll n o t c o m f o r ta b l e
w i t h t h is p a r t .
10

CHAIRPERSON: When you signed?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: When I signed. In fact I said to
m y l a w y e r w h e n w e w e r e d o in g t h is t h a t t h is f is t p a g e I a m h a v i n g a
p r o b le m w i t h i t . B u t h e in d i c a t e d th a t th is i s a n a g r e e m e n t t h e r e i s
n o t h i n g – i t d o e s n o t h a v e a n y e ff e c t o n w h a t y o u s a i d p r e v i o u s l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d t h e y h a v e a lr e a d y i n d ic t e d
t h a t I a m f r e e to t e s ti f y i n s u p p o r t o f Mr S e s o k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s i m p o r t a n t to y o u ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s w h ic h w a s i m p o r t a n t to m e .

20

N o w I d o n o t k n o w b e in g o u t o f s a r c a s t ic o r w h a t b u t I t o o k th is
a g r e e m e n t a n d d i d n o t w a n t t o s i g n t h e fir s t p a g e . A n d i t w a s i n i ti a ll e d
b y m y l a w y e r. I t w a s o n l y t h e p a g e w h e r e h e i n i t ia ll e d . A n d I s ig n e d
t h e s u b s e q u e n t o n e . S o m y l a w y e r s i n i t ia l s
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ar e o n ly o n t h e f ir s t p a g e .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e o n e l o o k i n g li k e …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : L E P s t a n d fo r P o k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e – h e in i ti a l l e d t h e r e .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

Ja.

If y o u c h e c k th a t H I – H I

w a s b a s i c a lly f o r m e w h e n I w a s p r e p a r i n g t h is t h in g f o r t h e – f o r t h is
h e a r in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh so it was not there.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s n o t th e r e j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w h i c h – o k a y.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M B o r w e l l – o r is i t M S ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t M S i s t h e p o lic e o ff ic e r w h o
c e r t if i e d t h e d o c u m e n t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A n d th e n y o u h a v e a s i g n a t u r e

t o w a r d s t h e c o r n e r th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d i d n o t s o m e b o d y i n i ti a l o n t h i s p a r t o f th e – o n
20

b e h a l f o f t h e e m p lo y e r ? O n th e fir s t p a g e .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I t i s i n i ti a ll e d a t th e c o r n e r

t h e r e . I f y o u c h e c k th e r e i s a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I s e e th a t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a a [ i n d is ti n c t ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o d i d th a t , d o y o u k n o w ?

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is th e h e a d o f L e g a l

S e r v ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s h e r n a m e – h is n a m e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M s M o r a s h e [? ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M a r in e M o r a s h e
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A n d i f y o u c h e c k t h e r e th a t

s ig n a tu r e th e r e i t i s s i m il a r t o t h e o n e i n t h e s u b s e q u e n t p a g e w h ic h
10

is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o n p a g e 2 .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e s e c o n d p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u – y o u w e r e – y o u w e n t – y o u h a d s o m e
d is c o m f o r t w it h t h e fi r s t p a g e ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I h a d a d i s c o m f o r t w it h th e f ir s t
page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e n o t p r e p a r e d t o e v e n i n it i a l i t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r l a w y e r i n i t ia ll e d i t ?

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s ig n e d t h e s e c o n d p a g e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t y o u r o w n w a y o f tr y i n g t o p r o t e c t y o u r s e l f b y
n o t s i g n in g a t a p a g e t h a t y o u w e r e n o t c o m f o r t a b l e w i th ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

No I was – I was – for some

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
reasons.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u w e r e j u s t n o t c o m f o r t a b l e .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I was just not comfortable.

I

knew that when I sign at the end it binds me of course.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t w il l m e a n – y e s y e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t t h e tr u th o f t h e m a t te r is th a t
I w a s ju s t r e a l ly n o t c o m f o r t a b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – j a , ja . Yo u k n e w t h a t it w o u l d b in d y o u b u t …
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

And it seems as in terms of

n e g o ti a ti o n o n t h e p r o p o s e d o ffe r t h a t w a s t h e c u l- d e - s a c f o r u s . T h e r e
was no way I could go.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s M s W e n tz e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w i f w e h a v e r e g a r d t o t h a t le t t e r th a t y o u
s ig n e d a n d I th i n k i t is i m p o r ta n t th a t – th a t w e s e e w h a t w a s a c tu a lly
s a i d s o t h a t w e c a n u n d e r s ta n d w h y y o u f e l t s o u n c o m f o r t a b l e . I t s a y s
u n d e r th e i n tr o d u c t i o n
“ T h e fir s t e m p l o y e e I n n o c e n t K h u b a w a s c h a r g e d
w i t h d i s h o n e s ty a n d d e f e a t in g t h e e n d s o f j u s tic e a s
m o r e f u ll y s e t o u t i n th e c h a r g e s h e e t a t t a c h e d

20

hereto marked A.

P u r s u a n t t o t h e in s ti t u ti o n o f

d is c i p l i n a r y a c ti o n a g a i n s t Mr K h u b a t h e p a r ti e s h a v e
r e a c h e d a g r e e m e n t o n th e 2 3 r d S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . Th e
p a r t i e s w is h e d to r e c o r d in w r i t in g t h e t e r ms o f t h e
a g r e e m e n t w h ic h t e r m s t h e y r e c o r d b e lo w. U n d e r t h e
t e r m s o f th e a g r e e m e n t:

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
Mr

Khuba

being

le g a l ly

r e p r e s e n te d

f r e e ly

and

v o l u n ta r i ly p l e a d s g u il ty t o th e c h a r g e s p r o ffe r e d
a g a in s t h i m a s s e t o u t i n A n n e x u r e A . ”
Is t h a t t h e – t h e m a i n p a r t t h a t m a d e y o u f e e l v e r y u n c o m f o r t a b l e ?
S o r r y a r e y o u s ti ll l o o k i n g f o r t h e p a g e ? I t is 2 8 7 . I d i d n o t r e a l is e y o u
h a d c lo s e d y o u r fil e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Then it says:
“ T h e e m p l o y e r w il l i m p o s e a s a n c ti o n o f a fi n a l
w r i t t e n w a r n i n g v a li d fo r s ix m o n t h s a g a in s t M r

10

Khuba.

Mr K h u b a ’s s u s p e n s io n w i ll b e u p l if t e d a n d

h e w i ll r e p o r t f o r d u ty o n M o n d a y t h e 2 8 t h S e p te m b e r
2015 and then under 7 it says:
D e s p i te th e s e r i o u s n e s s o f t h e o ff e n c e th e e m p lo y e r
is s a t is fi e d t h a t M r K h u b a ’s c a n d id a n d o p e n n e s s
a b o u t th e o ff e n c e t h e fa c t th a t h e d id n o t w a s te t h e
e m p l o y e r ’s

time

by

engaging

in

a

p r o tr a c t e d

d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir y a n d h is r e m o r s e t o b e a s u ff ic ie n t
m i ti g a ti o n a g a in s t a s a n c t io n o f d is m i s s a l w h i c h
o r d i n a r i ly w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p p r o p r i a te . ”

20

How did you feel about that?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I w i ll j u s t r e q u e s t y o u t o – t o

ju s t r e p e a t th a t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Oh sure. Do you want to have a look at page
288

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l h e w a s l o o k in g a t t h e a g r e e m e n t . Is t h a t n o t th e
- w h a t y o u w a n t h i m t o lo o k a t?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s b u t h e s e e m e d t o n o t – I n o ti c e d h i m

p a g in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I t h i n k i t is y o u r q u e s t io n . I th i n k h e h a d t h e
a g r e e m e n t . Yo u h a d t h e a g r e e m e n t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I h a v e th e a g r e e m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Oh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o i t w a s y o u r q u e s ti o n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s o h o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k y o u r q u e s ti o n – l e t m e s a y t h is . I t w o u l d s e e m
t h a t th e r e a s o n w h y y o u w e r e u n c o m f o r t a b l e w i th t h e f ir s t p a g e is t h a t
it s a y i n g y o u w e r e p le a d i n g g u il ty t o a c h a r g e o f d i s h o n e s ty a n d
d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u s t ic e . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u w e r e u n c o m f o r t a b le a b o u t th a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w a s v e r y u n c o m f o r t a b l e .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u r p o s i ti o n w a s t h a t y o u w e r e n o t g u il ty o f
a n y d is h o n e s ty a n d y o u w e r e n o t g u il ty o f a n y th in g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : C h a ir p e r s o n a n d a c t u a lly f o r m e
t o l o o k a t th e c h a r g e s o f d is h o n e s ty a n d lo o k a t w h a t t h e y w e r e

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b a r g a i n in g w i th m e to s a y th is is th e s a n c t io n . I t c o u l d n o t r e a lly – it
could not balance.

To s a y a w a r n in g w h e n s o m e b o d y s a y y o u h a v e

b e e n d is h o n e s t i n th e d e p a r t m e n t. I t – m o r e e s p e c i a l ly a s my le v e l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm at your level yes.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d th e

e m p l o y e r t o s a y w h a te v e r m a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e t o g o .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W e a r e n o t r e a lly s e t tl i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : S o I t h in k t h e s t r a t e g y w a s t h e y
p u t a d a n g li n g c a r r o t t o s a y w e a r e g o i n g t o g iv e y o u t h is w a r n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : F o r t h is s e r i o u s , s e r i o u s , s e r i o u s
c h a r g e a n d I t o o k it o n t h e b a s is th a t I f e lt a w a r n i n g b u t th e c h a r g e s
w h ic h th e y w e r e s a y i n g th e y w e r e v e r y s e r i o u s – t h e y w e r e n o t
b a l a n c e d . I t w a s n o t p r o p o r ti o n a l . J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u w a n t – c o u ld y o u j u s t r e i te r a t e a g a i n y o u r

r e a s o n s f o r s ig n in g th e a g r e e m e n t n e v e r t h e l e s s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e a s o n f o r s i g n i n g f o r …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

D e s p i te y o u r d i s c o m f o r t , d e s p i t e y o u r p o s it i o n th a t

y o u w e r e s a y in g y o u w e r e n o t g u il ty o f a n y t h i n g w h e r e – w h a t w a s y o u r
– w h a t w e r e y o u r r e a s o n s fo r s i g n i n g n e v e r t h e l e s s ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d a n d I t h i n k
t h a t p a r t is s q u a r e ly f a l li n g i n m y w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n t .

Because I

r e fl e c t e d e x a c tly to h o w I r e a c h e d th a t l e v e l t o s u c h a n e x t e n t t h a t I

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
s a i d t o m y s e l f I h a v e n e v e r b e e n in th a t s i tu a ti o n b e f o r e w i t h t h e
d e p a r t m e n t. I c a m e fr o m t h e p r i v a t e s e c t o r a n d e v e r y w h e r e I g o I w a s
t h e m o s t a b u s e d e m p l o y e e . I n t e r m s o f th e w o r k b e c a u s e I h a d t o d o a
lo t o f w o r k . N o w t h e t h i n g w a s e v e n t h o u g h t h e p o s i ti o n w a s s o s e n i o r
t h e p ic tu r e c a m e t h a t y o u to o k y o u r s e l f t o th e u n iv e r s i ty.

Th e

s tr u g g l e s , t h e p a i n o f w h ic h m a n y p e o p le h a d b e e n s a y in g to m e y o u
m a n a g e d to r e a c h a l e v e l w h e r e t h e p o s i ti o n is r e g a r d e d a s a p o l i tic a l –
t h e y n o r m a l ly a p p o i n t e d d ir e c to r s fr o m a r u l in g p a r ty. A n d I a m t h e r e i n
t h is p o s i t io n a n d I s a i d I a m j u s t m e . S o t h a t p a r t i t k i n d o f r e a l ly to o k
10

t h e s e n s e o f t h e i m p l ic a t i o n a n d I w a s s t u c k w i th t h e r e a l i ty o f h o w I
r e a c h e d th e r e . I t w a s d i ffi c u l t b u t I n e v e r s a w a n a l t e r n a ti v e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir w o u l d t h i s b e a n a p p r o p r i a t e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e s h o u l d a d jo u r n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i f w e c o u l d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e w i ll a d j o u r n a n d r e tu r n a t t w e n ty fi v e t o t w e lv e .
We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s c o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr K h u b a w e r e y o u d u r in g
t h e c o u r s e o f t h e s e d i s c ip li n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s a s k e d to s i g n a n a ffi d a v i t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t. T h e f ir s t …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Do you say in the course of these

proceedings?

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D is c i p li n a r y p r o c e e d in g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D is c i p l in a r y p r o c e e d i n g s . O k a y. J a .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I w a s b e f o r e th e s e tt l e m e n t

a g r e e m e n t t h e fir s t t h i n g w h ic h I w a s r e q u e s t e d t o d o w a s t o s i g n a
s t a te m e n t a c k n o w le d g i n g t h a t I l ie d .

I a lt e r e d t h e r e p o r t .

That was

done by Advocate Mokhari. I refused.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I said no I cannot do that and

t h a t i s w h e n t h e is s u e o f t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t k ic k e d i n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t o n t h e f ir s t d a y o f t h e d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s o n t h e fi r s t d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h e r e w e h a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t is n o w b e f o r e h e w e n t o u t t o g e t a n d t h e n y o u r
la w y e r - a n d a s k e d t o c o m e s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d d i s c u s s o r w a s i t l a te r
t h a n th a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e h a d a lr e a d y w e n t o u t w i t h t h e
la w y e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h e n la t e r o n h e a s k e d y o u t o s i g n a n a ff i d a v i t ?

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t p a r t I r e f u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I i n d ic a te d th a t I c a n n o t r e a l ly

d o t h a t b e c a u s e I w il l b e ly i n g .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

D i d t h e y w a n t y o u to s a y a n y t h in g a b o u t

M r Mc B r i d e o r M r S e s o k o i n th a t a ff i d a v i t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ye s .

They wanted me to say

t h a t th e y f o r c e d m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e y w a n t e d y o u to s a y i n t h e a ff id a v i t t h a t

M r Mc B r i d e a n d Mr - M r S e s o k o t o d o w h a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To a l t e r th e r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To a l t e r th e r e p o r t ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f ir s t r e p o r t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . S o y o u s a w t h e a ff id a v it . Yo u r e a d i t o r d i d n o t
even see it but you knew what it was saying?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o I d i d n o t s e e t h e a ffi d a v it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t t h e y to l d y o u w h a t i t w a s s a y i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

They were saying that we need

y o u to - t o d o a n a ffi d a v it w h e r e y o u s a y t h a t M r M c Br id e a n d
Mr Sesoko forced you to change that report.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u r e fu s e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr K h u b a a f te r s i g n i n g t h e
s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t d i d y o u g o a n d s e e M r S e s o k o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C a n y o u ju s t e x p l a i n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I w e n t to M r S e s o k o .

I found

h i m a t th e h o s p i ta l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d th is h a v e b e e n o n th e fi r s t - s a m e d a y t h a t y o u
s ig n e d th e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t o r w o u ld i t h a v e b e e n a fe w d a y s
la t e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e s a m e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s a m e d a y, o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

I - I went to the hospital and I

t o l d h i m w h a t t r a n s p i r e d b u t h e h a d a lr e a d y k n o w n t h e d e ta il s b e c a u s e
I k e p t h i m a b r e a s t t e le p h o n ic a ll y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In t e r m s o f th e s e d e v e l o p m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h e n I w a s m e e ti n g w i t h h i m h e
w a s - h e - h e w a s n o t r e a ll y i n s u p p o r t iv e o f w h a t I d i d b u t h e w a s m o r e
r e l a x e d . W e - w e c o u l d t a lk a b o u t a n d I s a i d n o r e s t a s s u r e d I d id n o t
i m p l ic a t e y o u t h e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s .

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u h a v e a c o p y o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w i th y o u a t t h e
ti m e o r n o t r e a l ly ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h i n k i t w a s w i th m y l a w y e r.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h i n k i t w a s w i th m y l a w y e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u a s s u r e d h i m t h a t y o u h a d n o t i m p lic a t e d h i m .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n I w e n t b a c k t o P o lo k w a n e .
S u d d e n l y th e - I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r it w a s o n te le v i s i o n o r o n
n e w s p a p e r b u t th e r e - t h e r e w a s a n is s u e o f s a y i n g I P I D i n v e s ti g a to r
h a s n o w s p il l e d i t a ll . H e i m p li c a t e d M c B r i d e a n d M r S e s o k o .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t in t h e m e d ia ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s in t h e m e d i a . Th e r e w a s
s o m e t a lk a b o u t i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w I r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m

M r S e s o k o a n d h e w a n t e d to k n o w w h e t h e r I i m p l ic a t e d h i m a n d I w a s I w a s v e r y a n g r y.

I was very angry because number one I knew that

t h a t a g r e e m e n t m y la w y e r w o u ld n o t r e a l l y le a k it t o t h e m e d i a .

So I

s t a r t e d t o h a v e d o u b ts b e c a u s e th e o t h e r c o p y - m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s
g iv e n t o t h e e m p l o y e r.
20

d is t o r t in g .

W h o th e n le a k e d t h i s t h i n g a n d a ls o t h e y a r e

Th e y a r e n o t p u t ti n g t h e w a y i t h a p p e n e d .

So I said to

M r S e s o k o I s a i d y o u k n o w w h a t w e h a d a d is c u s s io n a n d a n a g r e e m e n t
t h a t I c a n e v e n t e s t if y i n s u p p o r t o f y o u r - y o u r d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

An d I said I am going to do a

c o n fir m a t o r y - c o n fir m a t o r y a ff id a v i t .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I d id n o t w a s t e t i m e .

I went -

d r a f t e d . I w e n t to t h e p o li c e s t a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d a f t e r - I th i n k I d i d a n

assent to him or something …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t I f in a lly s i g n e d i t a t t h e

s t a ti o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th e n I g iv e it t o - to h i m .

I do

n o t k n o w w h a t h e d id w i t h th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s t h e a ff id a v it s a y i n g in e s s e n c e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e a ffi d a v it e x p la i n e d w h a t h a d
happened …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d a ls o i n d i c a t in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

I n f a c t i t i s in li n e w i t h o t h e r

a ffi d a v i ts l ik e t h e c o n fir m a t o r y a ff i d a v i t t h a t I d e p o s e d i n s u p p o r t o f
M c Br i d e e a r l ie r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . Ye s . S o - s o it w a s - i t w a s c o n s i s t e n t
w i t h w h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d t o b e th e tr u e f a c ts ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Could you have regard to page 2-9-2? Is that
t h e c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u g a v e t o M r S e s o k o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J u s t a l it t le - j a . Th a t is - t h a t i s
t h e o n e . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And if you can have a look at page 2-9-5

paragraph 15 you say:
“ I w is h t o s t a te c a te g o r i c a ll y e x c e p t f o r w h a t I h a v e
s t a te d a b o v e th a t n e i t h e r Mc B r id e n o r S e s o k o
in s t r u c t e d m e to e it h e r m a k e a n y s p e c i f ic c h a n g e s
in t h e r e p o r t o r t o e x o n e r a t e a n y p e r s o n i n t h e

10

report.”
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is c o r r e c t a n d i f I w a n t to

a d d i t is a ls o i n l i n e w i t h w h a t is in - i n W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t . T h e r e is a
p a r a g r a p h th e y t a lk a b o u t t h e in t e r v ie w a n d s a y s Mr K h u b a i n d ic a t e d
t h a t h e n e v e r r e c e iv e d a n y in s t r u c t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To e x o n e r a t e a n y o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , h m . Ye s .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And then at page 2-9-6 paragraphs 20 and 21
you say:
“In respect of my plea to the charges that I was
f a c i n g I d o n o t i n a n y w a y g iv e n t h e m a n n e r i n
w h ic h t h e c h a r g e /s a r e p h r a s e d i m p lic a t e o r i n t e n d
to

i m p lic a t e

or

in

any

manner

Page 78 of 194

suggest

that

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M r S e s o k o i s a ls o g u i lt y o f t h e c h a r g e t h a t h e is
f a c i n g . I n f a c t i n m y p l e a b a r g a in w it h m y e m p l o y e r
it w a s a l s o a g r e e d t h o u g h s a m e is n o t i n c l u d e d a s a
t e r m in t h e s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t t h a t I a m fr e e to
t e s ti fy f o r Mr S e s o k o s h o u ld h e f in d i t n e c e s s a r y to
call me as a witness.”
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is c o r r e c t a n d a ls o i n - a s

p a r t o f th a t m y l a w y e r d e p o s e d a c o n f ir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i t in t e r m s o f w h a t
h a p p e n e d d u r in g th a t p r o c e s s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w d i d y o u r e m p lo y e r k n o w th a t y o u h a d

d e p o s e d t o th is a ffi d a v i t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I

r e p o r te d

on

d u ty

on

2 8 S e p t e m b e r. T h a t w a s t h e M o n d a y b e c a u s e i t w a s c o n c l u d e d I th i n k
it w a s a r o u n d F r i d a y.

E a r ly in t h e m o r n i n g w h il e I w a s h a v i n g a

m e e ti n g w i th m y s ta ff t e l li n g th e m t h a t I a m b a c k a n d I w a n t e d t o c h e c k
h o w t h e y w e r e d o i n g i n t e r m s o f t h e w o r k . I r e c e i v e d a c a ll - t e le p h o n ic
c a l l fr o m M r K g a m a n y a n e .
s t a te m e n t .
20

H e a s k e d m e w h y d id y o u d e p o s e t o t h is

I to ld h i m t h a t it i s b e c a u s e it i s t h e tr u th a n d th e n a f t e r

t h a t w e h a d s o m e d is c u s s i o n s b u t o n t h e 2 9 t h t h a t is w h e n I r e c e i v e d a
le t t e r t o s t a t e r e a s o n s in w r i t in g w h y I s h o u l d n o t b e d is m is s e d . Th o s e
- t h a t l e t te r w a s d e li v e r e d . I t w a s d e liv e r e d l a te .
CHAIRPERSON: On the 28t h?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O n t h e 2 9 t h .
CHAIRPERSON: The 29th?

Page 79 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h i n k i t w a s t h e 2 9 t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e 2 9 t h w o u ld t h a t h a v e b e e n a M o n d a y - a Tu e s d a y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h in k i t w a s o n Tu e s d a y i f I a m
n o t m is t a k e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e M o n d a y w a s t h e 2 8 t h - th e 2 8 t h I t h i n k y o u

said.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Wa s th e 2 8 t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

A n d t h e n h e in d ic a t e d t o m e i n

t h a t l e t te r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

To s a y I m u s t n o t - I m u s t t e ll

h i m w h y h e m u s t n o t r e p la c e t h e f in a l w r i tt e n w a r n i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W it h d is m is s a l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

He gave some background on

the top to say …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Yo u c o n c l u d e d t h is a g r e e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w y o u d e p o s e d a s t a te m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d w h e n I g o t t h a t I s ti ll

r e m e m b e r I c o u l d n o t c o n ti n u e . I h a d t o le a v e th e o ff ic e . I w e n t a n d

Page 80 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
c o n s u l t e d w i t h th e d o c t o r b e c a u s e I w a s r e a l ly d e p r e s s e d . I c o u l d s t a r t
to see where it was going.
CHAIRPERSON:

I g u e s s e s p e c i a lly a f t e r w h a t y o u w e r e to l d a t th e

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g w h i c h le d to t h e a g r e e m e n t . N a m e ly w h a t e v e r y o u
s a y if y o u c o n t i n u e - i f t h e h e a r i n g c o n ti n u e s y o u w il l b e f ir e d .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d m y e x p e c t a t i o n th e r e w a s

t h a t i f a n y w a y t h e y w a n te d t o d is c ip li n e m e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e f ir s t p r o c e s s h a d a lr e a d y

been concluded.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d p r o b a b l y t o
in it i a t e a n e w p r o c e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And use that agreement as an

a g g r a v a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e w a y I k n o w t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e L a b o u r R e l a ti o n p r o c e s s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w I d i d n o t in v o lv e t h e l a w y e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 81 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d r a ft e d my o w n r e s p o n s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I i n d ic a t e d in m y r e s p o n s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th a t I d o n o t k n o w w h o l e a k e d

t h a t - th e i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t t h e a g r e e m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d t h a t I th i n k th a t a g r e e m e n t

w a s d o n e in b a d f a i t h …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d I s ta t e d t h a t I w a s r e a d y

t h a t th e a g r e e m e n t c a n b e w it h d r a w n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And

face

th e

d is c i p l in a r y

h e a r in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w a s r e a d y f o r t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I i n d ic a t e d in t h e l e t t e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Yo u h a d r e a c h e d t h a t p o i n t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I - I h a v e r e a c h e d th a t p o in t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e I h a v e r e a l is e d th a t i t

s e e m s a s i f t h e r e w a s th r e a t w h ic h w a s u s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 82 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w le t m e g o a n d r e a l ly f a c e

t h is …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e a r in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th e n g iv e a ll I h a d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In o r d e r t o p r o v e m y in n o c e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w I - I s e n t t h a t le t t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I cannot remember the exact

ti m e w h e n I e m a i le d i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t in t h e a ft e r n o o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e r e w a s a p e r s o n fr o m H e a d

O ff ic e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t d a y I d id n o t g o t o w o r k

b e c a u s e w h e n I c o n s u l t e d w i t h t h e d o c t o r th e d o c t o r h a d g iv e n m e th e
m e d i c a t io n . S o I d e c i d e d to b e a t h o m e a n d s a y I w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o g o
to work.

N o w I - I w a s t o l d th a t t h e r e is s o m e b o d y o n t h e w a y

d e li v e r i n g a l e t te r.
N o w I w a s s o - s o s u r p r i s e d b u t I f e l t t h i s le t t e r i s th e le t t e r

Page 83 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
o f d is m is s a l. I w e n t t o t h e g a t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h is

was

now

a f te r

you

had

sent

your

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e x p l a n a t io n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n I w e n t to th e g a te b e c a u s e
it i s a n e s t a t e s e t u p a n d I w e n t t o c o ll e c t t h e le t t e r a n d I g o t th e l e t te r.
10

I t m e a n t y o u a r e d is m i s s e d w i t h i m m e d i a te e ffe c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o h e a r in g n o t h i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o h e a r in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll h o w I

r e a c h e d th e g a t e b u t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r h o w I r e a c h e d t h e - t h e h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r g e t t in g t h e le t t e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s y o u r s ta t e o f mi n d a f te r g e t t in g t h e le t t e r

t h a t m a k e s y o u n o t to r e m e m b e r h o w y o u r e a c h e d t h e h o u s e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e b i g g e s t p r o b le m i s t h a t i t

s e e m e d a s m y m i n d w a s s e p a r a t e d fr o m m y b o d y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I w a s w i th m y s o n b u t w h e n I

Page 84 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
w e n t b a c k I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r h e w a s th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh, hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Now

-

and

I

was

w a lk i n g

barefoot.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c o ll e c te d . I w e n t b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I c o u ld n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t

h a p p e n e d b u t I r e m e m b e r w h i le I w a s i n t h e h o u s e …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n i t s t a r te d to s i n k i n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t I a m n o w d is m is s e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Fr o m t h e e m p lo y m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W h ic h is t h e t h i n g y o u h a d s o u g h t t o a v o id w h e n
y o u a g r e e d t o t h i s s e tt l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t e v e n t h o u g h y o u w e r e n o t
happy with page 1?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is w h a t I w a s s e e k i n g a v o id

20

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Bu t I want to say Chairperson

that …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I somehow got the consolation

Page 85 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : L a t e r v e r y la t e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

The consolation was when I

h e a r d i n th e n e w s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t Mr S e s o k o w a s fir e d w h e n

h e w a s a d m i t t e d in h o s p i t a l
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W it h o u t l e a d i n g a n y e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I r e a li s e d th a t w h a t I d id w a s

s i m p l y t o c r o s s t h e b r i d g e e a r ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t a n y w a y I h a d to c r o s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Yo u - y o u b e c o m e m o r e c o n v i n c e d t h a t w h a t h a d
b e e n t o l d t o y o u r l a w y e r t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o b e fir e d a n y w a y y o u
w e r e g o i n g t o b e f ir e d i f t h e d is c i p l in a r y h e a r in g p r o c e e d e d m u s t h a v e
20

been true?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr K h u b a w h o h a n d d e l iv e r e d th is l e t t e r o f

d is m i s s a l t o y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t w a s - i t w a s a g e n t le m a n

Page 86 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
c a l l e d M o s i e b u t I r e m e m b e r t h e ti m e t h e r e w a s m y D e p u ty Pr o v i n c i a l
Head came at the gate.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o h e w a s u s e d to h a n d d e liv e r

t h a t l e t te r t o m e a n d I a c c e p t e d t h e l e t t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d h e t h e n w e n t b a c k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

B u t fr o m H e a d O ff ic e i t w a s a

g e n tl e m a n w h o w a s - i t w a s - h e w a s fr o m G a u t e n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I cannot remember the name

n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m a n d th e l e t te r w a s s i g n e d b y M r K g a m a n y a n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o d i d s o m e b o d y fr o m H e a d O ffi c e i n P r e t o r ia
a g a in h a v e t o d r iv e to L i m p o p o t o h a n d d e l iv e r t h is l e t te r t o y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d i f y o u c a n l o o k a t th e ti m i n g b e t w e e n

s e n d i n g y o u r r e p r e s e n ta t io n s i n r e s p o n s e t o th e l e t t e r y o u h a v e
received

on

29 September 2015.

Is

it

possible

that

th o s e

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s c o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n s i d e r e d b e f o r e l e a v in g P r e t o r i a
w i t h t h is l e t te r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I - I t h in k t h e w a y i t h a p p e n e d

Page 87 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
lo o k in g a t w h e n th e - th e r e p o r t w a s - w a s s e n t . Ev e n t h o u g h I c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r v iv id ly t h e t i m e s .

I g o t t h i s s e n s e th a t th e p e r s o n w a s

a lr e a d y d is p a tc h e d b e f o r e t h e y c o u ld e v e n e n t e r ta in w h a t I h a v e w r i t t e n
b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is th a t w h e n y o u h a v e a r e p r e s e n t a ti o n i f
y o u a r e a n E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r y o u w il l a p p ly y o u r m i n d a n d r e q u e s t
m a y b e t o h a v e a m e e t in g w i t h y o u r L e g a l S e r v ic e s o r L a b o u r R e l a ti o n s
a n d c o n s id e r t h e r e a s o n - e v a l u a te t h e m a n d th e n d e c i d e o n th e
d e c is i o n b u t t h e w a y i t h a p p e n e d s o q u ic k w h e n I s e n t i t i n th e m o r n in g
or around nine.
10

I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r i t w a s n in e o r 1 0 a n d y o u h a v e i n t h e
a ft e r n o o n a p e r s o n t h e r e .

I t r e a lly s h o w s t h a t i t w a s ju s t w h a t th e y

r e q u e s t e d m e t o d o w a s j u s t a f o r m a li ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u e m a i l y o u r - y o u r e x p l a n a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h i n k I e m a il e d C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
document at page 298.
20

N o w p le a s e w ill y o u h a v e r e g a r d to t h e
I t is a d o c u m e n t a d d r e s s e d t o y o u b y

Mr Kgamanyane dated 29 September 2015.

Is t h a t t h e n o t ic e o f

d is m i s s a l e s s e n ti a l ly ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a t w a s s e n t to y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i f w e h a v e r e g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h 3 it s a y s :

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“ T h e s e tt l e m e n t a g r e e m e n t c o n t a i n i n g y o u r g u il ty
a n d t h e s a n c ti o n w a s r e a d o u t t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n in
t h e i n q u ir y w h o t h e n m a d e a r u li n g in w h ic h h e
c o n fir m e d i ts c o n t e n t s a n d p r o n o u n c e d y o u g u i lt y o f
t h e c h a r g e . T h e i n q u ir y t h e n t e r m i n a t e d o n th a t d a y
23 September 2015.

A c o p y o f t h e s e tt l e m e n t

a g r e e m e n t a n d A n n e x u r e A th e c h a r g e s h e e t is
a tt a c h e d .

O n Fr id a y 2 5 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 in b r e a c h

o f y o u r g u i l ty p l e a a n d t h e a g r e e m e n t f o r a l e n i e n t
10

s a n c ti o n s h o r t o f d is m i s s a l a s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e
s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t … ”
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d o n o t - y o u a r e n o t g o in g t o r e a d t h e w h o l e

le t t e r, h m ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I th i n k j u s t g o t o w h a t is i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : “ … w it h o u t m y k n o w l e d g e o r c o n s e n t
deposed

to

c o n tr a d ic te d

an

a ffi d a v i t

the terms

in

P o lo k w a n e

of your

g u il ty

w h ic h

plea

as

c o n ta in e d i n th e s e tt l e m e n t a g r e e . ”
20

S o - a n d th e n h e i n p a r a g r a p h 6 s a y s :
“ I a m o f th e v ie w th a t y o u r c o n d u c t a s e x p l a i n e d
a b o v e w a s a p e r p e tr a ti o n o f a d is h o n e s t a c t a n d t h e
d e f e a t i n g o f th e e n d s o f ju s t ic e a n d y o u h a v e
a lr e a d y p l e a d e d g u il t y to a n d a s e r i o u s b r e a c h o f
t h e l e n i e n c y o f t h e s a n c t io n t h a t I g a v e y o u w it h th e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
fi n a l w r i t t e n w a r n i n g . ”
S o h e u s e s a s y o u s a y t h e f a c t th a t y o u p r o p o s e d t o t h e
a ffi d a v i t .

N o w y o u r r e s p o n s e is c o n t a i n e d o n p a g e 3 - 0 - 2 .

Is t h a t

correct?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h a t r e f e r s t o y o u s a y i n g t h a t th e r e w a s

n o c o n d i ti o n i n t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u c o u ld n o t d e p o s e t o t h e a ff id a v i t
a n d y o u r e g a r d t h e a g r e e m e n t a s b e i n g in v a l i d a n d y o u a r e g o in g to g o
t o c o u r t i f n e e d b e t o s e t it a s id e .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Then the next document on page 3-0-5 dated
3 0 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 5 is th a t th e l e t te r o f y o u r s u m m a r y d i s mi s s a l ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e w h e n I l o o k a t t h i s l e tt e r t h a t M r K g a m a n y a n e

w r o t e t o y o u a s k i n g y o u t o - i n v it i n g y o u - y o u t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s
w h y i t is - j a . T h a t i n t e r m s o f t h a t l e t te r w h a t h e w a s s e e k i n g to d o t o - i s t o in e ffe c t d o a w a y w i t h t h e f in a l w r i t t e n w a r n i n g th a t h a d b e e n
a g r e e d to a s p a r t o f t h e s e tt l e m e n t in r e s p e c t o f t h e c h a r g e s t h a t y o u y o u h a d th a t b e e n p r e f e r r e d a g a in s t y o u a n d h e w a s s e e k i n g t o r e p l a c e
20

t h a t w i t h d i s m is s a l .

S o h e w a s s e e k i n g t o u n b u n d le t h e s e t tl e m e n t

a g r e e m e n t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e - h e w a s s e e k i n g to c h a r g e y o u w i t h m i s c o n d u c t i n
r e g a r d t o y o u d e p o s i n g t o a n a ff id a v i t. H e w a s s e e k i n g y o u t o g iv e a
p e n a l ty - a s a n c t i o n f o r t h e c h a r g e s t h a t y o u h a d f a c e d a t t h e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t is q u i te s tr a n g e b e c a u s e i t l o o k s l ik e o n t h e
o n e h a n d h e w a s s e e k i n g t o d o a w a y w i t h t h e - w it h t h e s e t tl e m e n t
a g r e e m e n t b u t o n t h e o t h e r h a n d h e a ls o w a n t e d t o u s e i t b e c a u s e y o u r
p l e a o f g u i l ty w a s p a r t o f t h e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t . If t h e a g r e e m e n t
is p u t a s i d e t h a t m e a n s t h e r e is n o p l e a o f g u il ty.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is c o r r e c t a n d C h a ir p e r s o n

…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e f o r e t h e r e s h o u ld b e a n i n q u ir y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e i n q u ir y th a t h a d b e e n s c h e d u l e d fr o m t h e

b e g in n i n g s h o u ld t h e n p r o c e e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e - h e w a n te d t o r e t a i n t h e p a r t o f t h e s e t tl e m e n t
a g r e e m e n t w h e r e y o u h a d p l e a d e d g u i l ty b u t t o d is c a r d t h e p a r t o f t h e
s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t t h a t r e l a te d t o a fi n a l w r i t te n w a r n i n g a n d to t h e n
p u t i n a d i ffe r e n t - a d i ff e r e n t s a n c ti o n t h a t h a d - th a t h a d n o t b e e n p a r t
o f t h e s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . M r K h u b a I a m n o w d e a li n g w i th
p a r a g r a p h 1 0 3 o n p a g e 3 1 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t is 1 0 0 ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 103 page 31.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y. I a m - I a m t h e r e .

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : P le a s e c o u ld te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d o n
3 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 w h ic h w a s t h r e e d a y s a f t e r y o u r d is m is s a l ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s W e n t z e l . I m a y h a v e m i s s e d t h is w h i le
I w a s fo c u s i n g o n t h i s le t t e r fr o m M r K g a m a n y a n e a t p a g e 3 - t h e
e a r l ie r l e t te r a t p a g e 3 - 0 - 1 o r is i t t h e o n e e n d in g a t p a g e 3 0 0 . I s e e
M r K h u b a th a t i n y o u r r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o M r K g a m a n y a n e a m o n g o th e r
t h i n g s o r in t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h y o u s a y :
“ Yo u h a v e - y o u h a d a p p r o a c h e d t h e P S A f o r a n
urgent
10

High

Court

a p p li c a t i o n

to

have

the

a g r e e m e n t s e t a s id e b a s e d o n a n u m b e r o f r e a s o n s
t o a ll o w y o u t o g o t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s o f a h e a r i n g .
I f y o u d e c i d e t o s e r v e m e w i t h a le t t e r o f d is m i s s a l
please use the same address that appears on your
le t t e r.

I h a v e b e e n b o o k e d o ff s i c k d u e t o m y il l

h e a lt h a n d w i ll o n ly b e b a c k o n 0 8 / 1 0 /2 0 1 5 . ”
Yo u h a d a s e n s e th a t d is m i s s a l w a s g o i n g t o f o ll o w. Is th a t r i g h t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u - y o u m a d e i t c l e a r h e r e t h a t y o u w e r e

q u i te h a p p y t o a c tu a lly g o t h r o u g h t o - t o r e s u m e t h e d is c i p l i n a r y
20

p r o c e s s a n d g o t h r o u g h a d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d if - if y o u c a n p e r h a p s h a v e r e g a r d a ls o
t o p a g e 3 - 0 - 2 . S o r r y. I c a n s e e y o u a lr e a d y c lo s e d i t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y. 3 - 0 - 2 . O k a y.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h e n o n e , t w o , t h r e e - th e - t h e l a s t

p a r a g r a p h o n t h a t p a g e . Yo u s a y :
“ T h e a g r e e m e n t d o e s n o t h a v e a n y c o n d i ti o n o r
t e r m s w h ic h r e q u i r e m e t o d e p o s e o r n o t d e p o s e t o
s t a te m e n t r e g a r d in g th is m a t t e r o r t e s t i fy i n fa v o u r
or against Mr Sesoko.”
Yo u r p a r a g r a p h 4 s t a t e s t h a t :
“ M y c o n d u c t o f d e p o s in g a n a ffi d a v i t a ft e r t h e
s e t tl e m e n t c o n tr a d ic te d t h e t e r m s o f t h e g u i lt y p l e a .
10

The agreement does not have terms with regard to
t h is is s u e .

If the employer made an offer for a

s e t tl e m e n t

agreement

u n f o r t u n a t e ly

I

fail

to

with
read

u l te r i o r
such

m o ti v e

during

the

a c c e p ta n c e o f th e o ff e r. I c o n c l u d e d t h e a g r e e m e n t
in g o o d f a i th p u t t in g th e i n t e r e s t o f m y f a m ily fi r s t . ”
T h a t is i n l in e w i t h w h a t y o u te s ti fi e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h e - t h r e e is a p a r a g r a p h w h ic h is I t h in k

i m p o r t a n t a ls o o n t h e l a s t - s e c o n d p a g e o f y o u r le t t e r.

Namely page

3 - 0 - 3 . Yo u s a y t o Mr K g a m a n y a n e :
20

“ Yo u r p a r a g r a p h s 6 a n d s e v e n s t a t e s t h a t I s h o u l d
e x p l a i n w h y y o u s h o u l d n o t r e v o k e th e f in a l w r i t te n
w a r n i n g a n d r e p l a c e i t w i t h d i s m is s a l .

The same

p l e a a g r e e m e n t w h ic h w a s s ig n e d b y t h e e m p l o y e r
d o e s n o t h a v e a c l a u s e t h a t a l lo w s t h e p o s i t io n o f
d is m i s s a l w i t h o u t a h e a r i n g o n th e s o c a l le d n e w

Page 93 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
m is c o n d u c t o r a n y c o n t r a v e n ti o n i f r e a ll y t h e r e w a s
such.

T h is c l e a r ly s h o w s t h a t th is a g r e e m e n t is

u s e d a s a n in s t r u m e n t o f v ic ti m is a ti o n b y th e
e m p l o y e r.

W i th t h is t h r e a t o f d i s m is s a l I a m n o t

c o n v i n c e d t h a t th e e m p lo y e r m a d e s u c h a n o ffe r - I
a m c o n v i n c e d t h a t t h e e m p lo y e r m a d e s u c h a n o ff e r
in b a d fa i th .

I t is c le a r t h a t w i t h t h is a m o u n t o f

v ic ti m i s a t io n t h e s o c a ll e d s ix m o n th s i n w h ic h t h e
s a n c ti o n w o u l d b e a c t iv e is g o i n g t o b e a n i g h t m a r e
for me.”

10

T h a t is w h a t y o u s a id .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Okay now Mr Sesoko can

y o u te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 3 r d o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 th r e e d a y s
a ft e r y o u r d i s m is s a l , w h e r e y o u d e a l w i th i t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 3 o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I r e c e iv e d a v is i t a ti o n fr o m

B r i g a d ie r

M ahlangu

Ramela

and

Colonel

of

the

Hawks

a n d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y e x c u s e m e M is s W e n tz e l I t h i n k y o u d id

r e fe r t o t h e l e tt e r o f d i s m is s a l b u t I a c tu a l ly d id n ’t g o t h e r e , w h a t p a g e
is i t a g a i n ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t ’s p a g e 3 0 5 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e th a t i n t h e l e t t e r o f d is m is s a l h e s a y s , t h a t i s M r
Kgamanyane,

Page 94 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
“Due

to

the

seriousness

of

t h is

transgression

and

th e

s e n i o r it y p o s i ti o n y o u h o l d in I P I D a s t h e Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d , I
fi n d t h a t I ’ m u n a b l e t o tr u s t y o u a n y m o r e a n a s s u c h th e tr u s t
r e l a ti o n s h i p h a s b e e n ir r e p a r a b ly b r o k e n d o w n .

Th e p o s i ti o n

y o u o c c u p y is o n e o f tr u s t a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o o c c u p ie s it ,
m u s t b e a p e r s o n w i th i n t e g r i ty.

Yo u h a v e d e m o n s tr a te d

t h r o u g h y o u r d is h o n e s t c o n d u c t t h a t y o u l a c k i n te g r it y a n d
c a n n o t b e tr u s t e d b y th e e m p l o y e r, I t h e r e f o r e d is m i s s y o u
fr o m y o u r e m p l o y m e n t w i th i m m e d ia t e e ff e c t ” .
10

D o e s t h i s i n a n y w a y g o b a c k t o a p o i n t y o u m a d e e a r l ie r o n
w i t h r e g a r d t o w h y t h e y w o u ld w a n t t o k e e p y o u a s p a r t o f th e
s e t tl e m e n t i f y o u w e r e g u il ty o f s u c h s e r i o u s m i s c o n d u c t a s d i s h o n e s ty
a n d d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u s t ic e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t ’s

correct

C h a ir p e r s o n

b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t i f t h e n w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g w a s t r u e
w h y d id h e s to m a c h t h e f ir s t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w o u ld n o t h a v e n e g o ti a te d t o
h a v e th a t s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e w e ta lk a b o u t d is h o n e s t b u t
20

t h e tr u t h o f th e m a t te r i s , t h e y w e r e u s in g m e t o s a y, h o w c a n t h e y g e t
m e t o t u r n m e a g a i n s t M c B r i d e a n d M r S e s o k o a n d w h e n i t b a c k f ir e d
n o w t h e y p la y t h i s s tr i c t e m p lo y e r, w h y a r e y o u – w h y d i d y o u d e p o s e
t h is s t a t e m e n t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d – o k a y l e t m e a s k t h is q u e s t io n , h o w w a s

y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h M r K g a m a n y a n e b e f o r e t h is – b e fo r e t h e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Mr Kgamanyane was one of my

b e s t fr i e n d s in t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e h e b e c a m e a c ti n g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e f o r e h e b e c a m e a c ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

To s u c h a n e x te n t t h a t w e u s e d

t o c a ll e a c h o t h e r e v e n o v e r t h e w e e k e n d , w e w e r e v e r y, v e r y c l o s e a n d
w h e n w e w e r e a t t e n d i n g e i th e r s tr a te g i c p l a n n in g , w h e n w e w o u l d g o t o
10

e a t w e w o u l d e a t [ i n d is ti n c t ] s i t to g e th e r b e c a u s e o u r o ffi c e s – o u r
p r o v i n c e s w e r e r e g a r d e d a s t h e b e s t p e r fo r m i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e b e i n g P r o v i n c ia l H e a d i n Fr e e S t a t e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : P r o v in c i a l H e a d .
CHAIRPERSON: And you being in Limpopo?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h i le m e b e i n g in L i m p o p o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o r m a lly t h e y w o u l d n ’ t fi n d s ta ff
with us.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d i t ’s j u s t t h a t h e w a s n o t

u til is e d i n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o f h i g h p r o fil e c a s e s o r s e t ti n g u p o ff ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e n w h e n th is t h in g h a p p e n e d

it r e a ll y g a v e m e a s h o c k b u t s o m e h o w I j u s t u n d e r s t o o d i t th is w a y,
s o m e p e o p l e a r e s o a m b i ti o u s t o s u c h a n e x t e n t th a t w h e n t h e y a r e

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lo o k in g f o r a b i g g e r p o s i ti o n , i n t e g r i t y n o lo n g e r m a t t e r s , s o I j u s t f e l t
t h a t w a y a n d r e a ll y it w a s l ik e – a n d I j u s t w a n t t o p u t t h is p a r t s o t h a t
C h a ir p e r s o n c a n u n d e r s ta n d b e c a u s e a f t e r m y d is m is s a l w h e n I w a s
s tr u g g li n g w i t h h o w a m I g o i n g to r u n m y li fe I r e a li s e d t h a t I h a v e p u t
in p e tr o l c l a i m o f t h e t r a v e ll in g th a t I d i d w h il e I w a s d o i n g t h i s
h e a r in g s . Th a t p e tr o l c l a i m w a s s u p p o s e d t o p a y m e R 8 0 0 0 , I p h o n e d
h e a d o ff ic e -

I th i n k i t w a s p a i d m a y b e e i g h t m o n t h s o r s o m e t i m e .

I

p h o n e d h e a d o ff ic e , o u r p o lic y s a y s th e y p a y t h e c l a i m w i t h in 3 0 d a y s .
N o w w h e n I c h e c k e d a n d I k e p t o n p h o n i n g , p h o n in g t h e n o n e o f th e
10

e m p l o y e e s t o ld m e , w e w e r e t o l d n o t to p r o c e s s y o u r c l a i m b e c a u s e i f
w e p a y y o u t h i s m o n e y y o u ’r e g o i n g t o p a y th e l a w y e r a n d tr y to fi g h t
b a c k , th e y w a n t y o u t o s u ff e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th a t’s c o r r e c t , s o w h a t I d i d I

w e n t t o a n o t h e r l a w y e r in P o l o k w a n e , n o t Mr P h o o k o I w a s u s in g , w e
w r o t e n u m e r o u s l e t te r s s a y i n g w e w o u l d h a v e t o g o t o C o u r t y o u h a v e
t o p a y m e th e t h i n g a n d t h e y e n d e d u p n o t p a y i n g , t h e y p a id w a y a f t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y a f te r e i g h t m o n t h s o r s o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

After I had gone to the Labour

C o u r t t o – i t w a s w a y a f te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w M r S e s o k o te s t i fi e d th a t w h e n M r K g a m a n y a n e , I
t h i n k h is s u s p e n s i o n l e tt e r i f I’ m n o t m i s t a k e n , h e b a s ic a l ly, I t h i n k
a s k e d h i m a q u e s t io n w h ic h k in d o f r e q u ir e d Mr K g a m a n y a n e t o s a y w h y
h e w a s d o i n g th is b e c a u s e M r S e s o k o s a i d I t h i n k th e t w o o f t h e m a ls o
h a d – t h e y h a d a v e r y g o o d r e la t io n s h i p b e f o r e Mr K g a m a n y a n e b e c a m e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a c ti n g Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c to r o f I P I D . H e s a i d h e h a d e v e n h e lp e d h i m , I
t h i n k , w h e n h e w a s s e t ti n g u p i n t h e F r e e S t a t e , s e t t in g u p o ffi c e s a n d
s o o n a n d h e s a i d Mr K g a m a n y a n e r e s p o n d e d a n d I th i n k t h e r e ’s a
tr a n s c r ip t f o r i t b y s a y i n g s o m e t h in g a l o n g th e l in e s t h a t w h e n y o u j o i n
t h e p o lic e b e f o r e t h e y c o n fir m y o u o r c o n fir m
t h e y i n s tr u c t y o u t o g o a n d a r r e s t y o u r

y o u r a p p o in t m e n t a n d

fa t h e r, y o u h a v e t o g o a n d

a r r e s t y o u r f a th e r, w h ic h M r S e s o k o u n d e r s t o o d a s a w a y o f s a y i n g , I’v e
b e e n in s t r u c t e d t o d o t h i s .
in s t r u c t e d to d o t h is .
10

S o i n o t h e r w o r d s i t ’s n o t m e , I ’v e b e e n

Yo u d i d n o t h a v e a n y s u c h s i tu a ti o n i n y o u r

in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h M r K g a m a n y a n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o I d i d n o t o n t h e b a s is t h a t

b e c a u s e I w a s fa r fr o m P r e t o r ia I c o u ld n o t h a v e e n g a g e m e n t w i t h h i m
a n d I a v o i d e d h i m t o m a k e a n y c a ll t o h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o h e w o u ld u s e s o m e o n e t o

s e r v e m e s o I th i n k w i t h M r S e s o k o it w a s e a s ie r b e c a u s e h e r e s i d e s
around there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y – y e s o k a y th a n k y o u , y o u m a y c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr Khuba could you

p l e a s e n o w te ll th e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 3 r d o f O c to b e r i t ’s d e a l t
with at paragraph 103 of your statement?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

On the 3rd of October 2015 it

w a s a p p r o x i m a t e l y t h r e e d a y s a f te r m y d i s m is s a l I r e c e iv e d a v is i ta t io n
fr o m B r i g a d i e r R a m e l a a n d C o lo n e l M a h l a n g u o f t h e H a w k s .
t h e y w e r e th e r e , I d id n o t e v e n -

When

I was not aware because when you

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
e n t e r t h r o u g h th e g a t e y o u n e e d to g e t a p p r o v a l t h e s e c u r i ty, t h e y w il l
t e l e p h o n e t h e h o u s e b u t I w a s ju s t s u r p r i s e d w h e n t h e y w e r e t h e r e , I
d o n ’t k n o w h o w d i d th e y g e t a c c e s s .

S o th e y e n t e r e d t h e h o u s e a n d

t h e n w e – b e f o r e t h e y c o u l d s i t d o w n t h e y w e r e li k e m o v i n g i n th e
s i tt i n g r o o m , s o m y g a r a g e it ’s f a c in g th e s it t in g r o o m , th e y c o u l d s e e
t h e c a r p a r k e d t h e r e a n d t h e y c o u ld s e e – t h e y c h e c k e d t h e h o u s e a n d
t h e y w e r e s a y i n g y o u h a v e s u c h a b i g h o u s e , i t m ig h t b e e x p e n s iv e o n a
m o n th ly b a s is ?

Yo u h a v e a b e a u t if u l c a r, n o w b e c a u s e y o u ’r e n o t

w o r k i n g i t m i g h t b e r e a l ly, r e a l ly d i ff ic u l t a n d I w a s s u r p r is e d b e c a u s e
10

t h e y w e r e s a y i n g th e s e th in g s b e fo r e w e c o u l d e v e n s t a r t t o – t h e y w e r e
ju s t d o in g li k e t h is , a h t h e h o u s e i s n i c e b u t h o w a r e y o u g o i n g t o p a y
f o r th is h o u s e b e c a u s e n o w y o u a r e n o t w o r k i n g ?

Then when I told

t h e m w e c a n s i t , t h e y s a i d , M r K h u b a w e h a v e a s o l u ti o n f o r
y o u … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is e v e n b e f o r e th e y c o u l d s it d o w n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Before they could even sit

d o w n , t h e y s a id t h e y h a d a s o lu t io n f o r m e , t h e y ’ r e h a v i n g s o m e th i n g
good for me, then we sat down.

They were having a docket and

f o r tu n a te ly t h a t d o c k e t , I w a s a b l e to c h e c k b e c a u s e w h i l e I w a s s e a t e d
20

y o u k n o w, I j u s t b e c o m e s u s p i c i o u s w h y t h e r e is a d o c k e t w h e n t h e s e
p e o p l e a r e v i s i t in g m e . S o t h a t d o c k e t , I w r o t e t h e c a s e n u m b e r d o w n ,
n o t w h il e I w a s w i th t h e m , a f te r t h e y h a d le f t a n d n o w t h e – w h a t t h e y
d i d w a s to e x p la i n t o m e , t h e y w e r e v e r y d ir e c t , b u t I n e e d t o i n d i c a t e
t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s t a lk i n g w a s th e j u n i o r C o l o n e l , b e c a u s e t h e y
in tr o d u c e d t h e m s e l v e s , th e S e n i o r B r ig a d i e r R a m e l a w a s a l w a y s – j u s t

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
quiet.
CHAIRPERSON: He was quiet?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s q u i e t , n o t ta lk in g m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

The

person

who

was

a

spokesperson was…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON: Mahlangu.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ma hlangu and that is when he

s a i d w e w a n t y o u to m a k e a s ta t e m e n t th a t w i ll i m p lic a t e D r a m a t – n o t
10

Dramat,

Mr

Sesoko

and

Mc B r i d e

and

then

you

are

going

to

be…[intervenes].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr S e s o k o a n d M r Mc B r i d e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a s o t h a t y o u c a n b e r e i n s t a te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a y h e w a s v e r y d ir e c t t h a t ’s h o w h e p u t i t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t h e y w e r e v e r y d ir e c t w i t h m e
t h e r e , th e y n e v e r d u c k a n d d iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w I r e fu s e d , I s a i d n o I c a n ’ t ,
w h y s h o u l d I m a k e th a t s t a t e m e n t a n d I s a w a c h a r g e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d th e y s a y i n w h a t w a y t h e y w a n te d y o u t o i m p l ic a te
t h e m , t o i m p li c a t e Mr M c B r i d e a n d M r S e s o k o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e y in d i c a t e d … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON: What did they say?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e th e y s a i d t h e y fo r c e d

y o u t o d o – to a l t e r t h e r e p o r t is n ’ t i t , t h e n I s a i d n o , t h e y d i d n ’ t f o r c e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
me.

N o w I’ d a lr e a d y s e e n t h e c h a r g e t h e r e i n th e d o c k e t s o I j u s t

s t a r t e d t o t a l k to t h e m a n d s a y, n o , n o t h e y p e r s u a d e d , p e r s u a d e d ,
p e r s u a d e d , c a m e w i t h tr ic k s , y o u k n o w it ’s g o i n g t o b e d i ffic u lt t o
s u s t a i n y o u r s e l f , h o w a r e y o u g o in g t o p a y t h is a n d w h a t h e w a s
t a lk in g , h e w a s r e a ll y p la y i n g w it h m y e m o ti o n s , h e w a s r e a l ly p l a y in g
with my emotions.

S o m e w h e r e s o m e h o w I f e l t to s a y, r e a lly w h y t h i s

g u y is s a y i n g t h is th in g b e c a u s e it w a s – y o u k n o w w h e n y o u h a v e ju s t
g o n e t h r o u g h a t r a u m a ti c s i t u a t io n p ic t u r e s a r e n o t f a r f e tc h e d ,
i m m e d i a t e ly a p e r s o n m e n t io n e d a w o r d i t j u s t c o m e s .
10

So he was

t e ll i n g m e w h a t I – I e v e n a s k e d m y s e l f h o w I ’ m g o i n g t o p a y a n d h e
s a y s , n o w e ’ r e g o i n g t o h e lp y o u N t le m e z a s e n t u s h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: What did they say?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

They said General Ntlemeza

sent us here.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y e s a n d t h e y w e r e fr o m t h e H a w k s a n d a t th a t

ti m e h e w a s a l r e a d y a c ti n g h e a d o f t h e H a w k s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e H a w k s y e s , a n d h e s a i d h e ’s
g o i n g to m a k e e v e r y t h in g i n h i s p o w e r t h a t y o u g o b a c k t o w o r k . N o w I
k n e w o n c e b i t te n tw ic e s h y b u t I w o u ld n ’ t h a v e d o n e a s ta t e m e n t b u t I
20

r e a l is e d t h i s is c o m i n g a g a i n , it ’s c o m in g a g a in a n d a f t e r t h a t , a f t e r w e
h a d a d is c u s s i o n t h e n t h e y … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll b e f o r e – a f t e r y o u h a d , h a d a d is c u s s i o n t e l l u s
h o w t h e d i s c u s s io n e n d e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e d i s c u s s io n e n d e d w h e n t h e y
w e r e s a y in g t h e y w il l c o m e t h e fo ll o w i n g d a y, t h e y w a n t e d m e to th in k

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a b o u t i t a n d if i t ’s p o s s i b l e y o u c a n c o n s u l t w i t h y o u r l a w y e r, a n y
p e r s o n , t h is is g o o d f o r y o u . T h e y w e r e ju s t in d ic a t i n g h o w, y o u k n o w i t
w i ll r e a l ly a s s is t m e .
c o m p le t e l y

what

T h e n t h e f o l lo w i n g d a y, I’ m n o t r e c o l le c t i n g

happened

but

it

seems

as

they

came

a g a in … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f o l lo w in g d a y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th e f o ll o w i n g d a y a n d w e c o u l d

n o t u n d e r s t a n d e a c h o t h e r … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t h a t w a s O c t o b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh I’m sorry October 2015?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : 2 0 1 5 Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n t h e y l e f t a g a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o o n th e s e c o n d d a y, w h a t d id t h e y s a y, I w a n t t h a t
d is c u s s io n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th e y w a n t e d t o k n o w fr o m m e

w h e t h e r I t h o u g h t a b o u t i t a n d t h e y w e r e li k e p l a y i n g lik e my fr i e n d s ,
p l e a s e w e a r e g o i n g t o h e lp y o u .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e b e in g n ic e to y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ve r y, v e r y n ic e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h is t i m e w a s i t ju s t th e tw o o f th e m a g a in o r
w a s t h e r e d i ffe r e n t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t h in k i t w a s th e t w o o f t h e m I

d o n ’t r e m e m b e r a n y p e r s o n c o m i n g t h e r e , n o w … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e y – I w a n t th e d i s c u s s i o n b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f

y o u , j u s t t e ll m e m o r e th is ti m e n o w ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o t h e d i s c u s s io n w a s w h e th e r

y o u h a v e s p o k e n w i th y o u r l a w y e r, w h a t h a p p e n e d w h a t is th e d e c is io n
t h a t y o u h a v e ta k e n , I s a i d , n o I c a n ’ t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e y s ti ll i n s i s te d t o s a y w e

w a n t t o h e l p y o u i f y o u h a v e a p r o b le m j u s t g iv e u s a c a l l a n d th e y w e r e
s a y in g t h e y w e r e le a v i n g a n d t h e n t h e y l e f t b u t a t th a t ti m e I w a s u n d e r
10

a m e d ic a ti o n , I t h i n k I u s e d i t fo r a l m o s t a w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d it m a d e m e t o k i n d o f r e a l ly
s le e p , I w o u l d s l e e p s o m e t i m e s fr o m 9 o ’c l o c k u n t il 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: 9AM to 4PM.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

4PM and again in the evening I

w o u ld ju s t s l e e p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ’ d j u s t s l e e p ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t I o n l y u s e i t f o r – I t h i n k f o r
a w e e k a n d t h e n w h i l e I w a s ju s t – I t h i n k I w a s i n m y s le e p , I t h i n k – j a
20

I w a s i n m y s l e e p o r ju s t w o k e n u p , I g o t a c a l l fr o m M a h la n g u , t h a t is
the call that was recorded, it was recorded because I had an app on my
p h o n e t h a t w o u l d r e c o r d e v e r y c a l l b u t I w i ll ju s t c h o o s e w h ic h o n e I
w a n t to s a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w – t h e n t h a t is w h e n th e y

Page 103 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
s a i d t o m e , b u t h e w a s a l i tt l e b it d i p lo m a t i c in t h e c a ll .
CHAIRPERSON: On the phone ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t h e w a s r e i t e r a t in g w h a t h e

s a i d , t o s a y t h a t , y o u k n o w y o u r e n e m i e s , i f y o u m a k e t h i s N t le m e z a ,
y o u k n o w N t le m e z a w il l r e i n s t a t e y o u , I j u s t f e l t t h a t h e w a s a li t tl e b i t
c a u ti o u s u n l ik e w h e n h e w a s t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n h e w a s i n th e h o u s e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

In t h e h o u s e t h e n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

B u t t e l l m e o n t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n o n th e p h o n e , ju s t

t e ll m e i n fu ll w h a t h e s a i d a n d w h a t y o u s a i d b a c k a s fa r a s y o u a r e
able to remember?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h a t I r e m e m b e r is t h a t h e s a i d
m a k e a s ta t e m e n t a g a i n s t y o u r e n e my.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t h o w h e p u t i t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ja put it, because he was

in d i c a t in g th is p e o p l e , Mr S e s o k o a n d M r M c Br i d e a r e my e n e m i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

M y c l o s e fr ie n d is

General

N tl e m e z a b e c a u s e I’v e b e e n i n te r a c t in g w i t h h i m f o r q u i t e s o m e ti m e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o – a n d h e s a id t h e y w o u l d

w a n t m e to m a k e a s t a te m e n t . S o I w a s – I w a s lik e d iz z y I j u s t o k a y I
n e v e r e n g a g e d w i th t h e m a n d e v e n t h e fir s t p a r t, i t i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e r e
w a s s o m e t h in g w r o n g w i th m e b e c a u s e I e v e n t h o u g h t i t w a s P h o o k o , I
s a i d M r P h o o k o b e c a u s e I th o u g h t i t w a s m y l a w y e r b u t i t w a s l a t e r t h a t

Page 104 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
I r e a li s e d th a t i t w a s C o l o n e l M a h l a n g u b e c a u s e h e w a s th e r e i n th e
h o u s e b u t I a ls o w a n t to a d d t h a t e v e n fr o m t h a t c a l l I r e a l is e d t h a t th e
m e d i c a t io n w a s n o t r e a ll y d o i n g m e a n y g o o d , I s t il l r e m e m b e r m y w i f e
s a y in g , l e t’s p u t th is i n t h e d u s t b i n y o u g o a n d s e e h o w y o u lo o k fo r a
jo b o u t s i d e , e v e n i f y o u p i c k u p p a p e r s a s lo n g a s o u r k i d s e a t a n d th a t
w a s t h e l a s t ti m e I … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s h e w a s s a y i n g m a y b e j u s t fo r g e t t h e I P I D is s u e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t l o o k fo r a n o t h e r j o b .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : R e c o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o it w a s t h e i s s u e o f t h a t j u s t

step down and make whatever you can make.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a m a k e p e a c e w i th a n d p u t it b e h i n d y o u .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

S o – b u t t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n o n t h e te l e p h o n e o r w i t h

C o l o n e l M a h l a n g u e n d e d o n th e b a s is t h a t h e s a i d m a k e a s t a t e m e n t
a g a in s t y o u r e n e m i e s a n d y o u s a i d – o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

Ye s a n d i n c l u d in g th a t y o u w i ll

b e r e in s t a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t y o u w il l t h e n b e r e i n s t a te d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d – o h I’ m s o r r y M s
W e n tz e l y o u m a y c o n t i n u e , d o w e h a v e t h a t – a tr a n s c r i p t o f t h a t
t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n ?

Page 105 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t ’s g o t o i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e tr a n s c r ip t i s A n n e x u r e 2 4 a n d i t s t a r ts a t

page 308, the actual wording at 310. Now…[intervenes]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p a g e 3 1 0 .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o y o u ’ ll s e e , I d o n ’t k n o w y o u w o u l d l ik e to

r e a d it o r a r e y o u h a p p y fo r m e t o r e a d i t M r K h u b a ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l m a y b e r e a d i t y o u r s e l f M i s s W e n t z e l , I t h i n k it

w i ll b e q u ic k e r.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s fi n e h e s a y s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

W e d o n ’ t n e e d to r e a d t h e w h o le th in g , j u s t t h e

i m p o r t a n t f e a tu r e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: He says,
“No I’m not at home down at the bottom paragraph 20, yet but
I’ m a t a e l d e r ’s h o u s e , w h e r e – o k a y, o k a y. I n t h e r u r a l a r e a s h e r e I a m
home, no one stays here so I decided to come and open the windows
f o r s o m e f r e s h a ir. O h t h a t ’s g o o d y e s . T h e n h e s a y s , y o u s a y n o m a n
thanks

I w il l t a l k

to

Brigadier

maybe

tomorrow

to

fi n a l is e

the

a p p o i n t m e n t o n M o n d a y. Ye s … [ in t e r v e n e s } .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k ju s t s a y K h u b a , M a h l a n g u s o t h a t …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
“Khuba,

no

man

I apologise yes,
thanks

I

w il l

talk

to

Brigadier

maybe

t o m o r r o w t o fi n a l is e t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o n M o n d a y. C o l o n e l
M a h l a n g u , y e s , y e s I fo r g o t t o s h o w y o u s o m e t h i n g , t h e n
K h u b a , o k a y, C o l o n e l M a h la n g u , y e s I f o r g o t t o s h o w y o u

Page 106 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
s o m e t h i n g j u s t s o t h a t y o u k n o w th a t e v e r y t h i n g t h a t y o u d o
for good for yourself.

K h u b a , o k a y.

M a h l a n g u , G e n e r a l,

G e n e r a l r e m e m b e r G e n e r a l is y o u r fr i e n d .

K h u b a , Ye s .

M a h l a n g u r e m e m b e r G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a is y o u r fr ie n d . K h u b a ,
y e s I k n o w h e is m y f r i e n d . C o lo n e l M a h l a n g u , y o u m u s t
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w h a t e v e r y o u d o w e ll f o r y o u r s e l f .

Khuba,

y e s . C o l o n e l M a h la n g u , n o t t o s u p p o r t y o u r e n e m ie s . K h u b a
yes.

M a h l a n g u , w e w il l m a k e h i m w e w i ll m a k e h i m a n d w e

w i ll e m p o w e r h i m t o e n s u r e t h a t y o u r e s t o r e y o u r jo b th a t i s
10

what you must do.
know

whatever

K h u b a , o k a y.
e n e m y.

K h u b a , o k a y.

everything

Mahlangu, that you must

of good you do for yourself.

M a h l a n g u , a n d y o u a r e n o t i n l in e w i t h y o u r

Khuba, yes, yes yes.

Mahlangu, as soon as

e v e r y t h i n g is f i n a li s e d G e n e r a l is t h e o n e w h o w il l d o g o o d fo r
you.

K h u b a , o k a y o k a y.

M a h l a n g u , a s a fr ie n d , a s a p e r s o n

y o u k n o w. K h u b a , y e s . M a h la n g u , I d o n o t th in k h e w il l d u m p
y o u , I d o n o t th in k h e w il l th r o w y o u in t h e m u d t h e o n l y th in g
y o u m u s t d o i s b e h o n e s t t o y o u r s e l f , fi x e v e r y t h in g , d o n o t
t a k e w r o n g id e a s a n d a d v ic e s a n d t h e n w e w il l t e l l G e n e r a l
20

t h e N PA w i ll d e a l w i t h w h a t e v e r t h e y d e a l w i th b u t w e w i ll
in f o r m G e n e r a l th a t s in c e t h i s g u y h a s p u s h e d f o r u s to r e a c h
w h e r e w e a r e . K h u b a , y e s . M a h la n g u , a s a w i t n e s s . K h u b a ,
yes.

Mahlangu,

th e n

he

is

a c q u it t e d .

Khuba,

o k a y.

M a h l a n g u , a n d s o m e th in g h a s t o b e d o n e , h e h a s t o b e
r e s t o r e d n e x t t o h is p o s i t io n o r t o h is [i n d is t in c t] .

Page 107 of 194

Khuba,

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
o k a y.

M a h l a n g u , y e s p le a s e y o u m u s t u n d e r l in e i t , y o u m u s t

p u t N B b e h in d i t a n d u n d e r l in e i t d o n o t d o it .

Khuba, Okay

a n d t h e n t h e r e s p o n s e , d o n o t h i g h li g h t it w i th a h i g h li g h t e r
you must write it with a red pen underneath it is the best
s t a te m e n t to y o u , y o u m u s t e m p o w e r y o u r s e l f ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u , th a t t r a n s c r i p t o f c o u r s e s h e h a s n ’ t

r e a d e v e r y t h i n g o n t h e tr a n s c r ip t , th a t tr a n s c r i p t o f t h a t t e l e p h o n e c a l l ,
d o e s i t r e f le c t s u b s t a n ti a l ly th e c o n v e r s a ti o n y o u h a d o n t h e p h o n e w i t h
C o l o n e l M a h la n g u ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : M r K h u b a i f w e c a n t h e n g o to p a r a g r a p h 1 0 7
o n p a g e 3 2 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t a n i f y o u c o u l d p le a s e t h e C h a ir w h a t
h a p p e n e d o n W e d n e s d a y th e 2 4 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 ?
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e f o r e w e g o t h e r e , d i d C o l o n e l M a h la n g u

f o ll o w - u p o n t h e is s u e t h a t th e t w o o f y o u d is c u s s e d o n t h e t e l e p h o n e
a t a l a t e r s ta g e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w h a t h a p p e n e d , I a m t h e o n e
w h o g a v e h i m a c a ll , i t w a s o n M o n d a y b e c a u s e h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o
20

c o m e o n M o n d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th a t i s w h e n I s a i d I w a s i n
P r e t o r i a a n d I s a i d I w o n ’ t b e a v a i la b l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d th a t h a v e b e e n a fe w d a y s a ft e r t h e d a y o n

w h ic h th e te l e p h o n e c a l l to o k p l a c e ?

Page 108 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u c a l le d h i m .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a ju s t to s a y I a m n o t g o in g t o
a v a i la b le a t h o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e – w a s h e g o in g to c o m e h o m e
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s g o i n g t o c o m e a g a in o n
M o n d a y b e c a u s e h e w a n te d to s e e w h e t h e r I h a v e c h a n g e d m y m in d .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w o n t h e – o n th e – o n t h e tr a n s c r ip t o f t h e

t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t i o n I d i d n o t p ic k u p a n y t h i n g i n t e r m s o f w h i c h h e
10

w a s g o in g t o c o m e h o m e . D i d h e c a ll a f te r – a ft e r w a r d s t o s a y I w o u ld
lik e to c o m e h o m e o r is i t in t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h i n k i f w e c h e c k …
CHAIRPERSON:
everything.

I m i g h t n o t h a v e p ic k e d i t b e c a u s e I d id n o t r e a d

B u t th a t is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g ?

I n th e t e l e p h o n e

c o n v e r s a ti o n …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : L e t m e g o t o th e – j u s t t o r e fr e s h
m y m in d . Te l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t io n . T h e tr a n s c r ip t w h e r e i s i t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is o n p a g e 3 – w e l l i t s t a r ts – y o u c a n lo o k
at page 310 onwards.
20

CHAIRPERSON: 3?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 310.
CHAIRPERSON: 310?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : 3 1 0 . O k a y. O k a y th e r e i t s a y s –
“ N o m a n t h a n k s I w i ll t a l k to B r i g a d ie r m a y b e

Page 109 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t o m o r r o w t o fi n a li s e t h e a p p o in t m e n t o n M o n d a y. ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o th a t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s g o i n g to t a lk t o t h e B r i g a d i e r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h a v i e w t o m a k e a n a p p o i n t m e n t fo r e i th e r h i m o r
t h e m t o s e e y o u o n M o n d a y.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A n d t h e n y o u p h o n e d h i m b e fo r e t h e y c o u l d

come?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: And you had said to him you are not at home?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t e l s e d i d y o u s a y i n th a t te le p h o n e

c o n v e r s a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s v e r y, v e r y s h o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I d o n o t r e m e m b e r h a v i n g s a id

a n y th in g f u r th e r th a n th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d h e ju s t s a id o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th e r e w a s n o f u r th e r a r r a n g e m e n t m a d e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o .

Page 110 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: Okay and nothing actually…
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id n o t p u r s u e t h e i s s u e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t h e r e w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja they did not.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . I t h i n k t h e n y o u c a n c o n t in u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o ju s t s o w e c a n g e t th e t i m e l in e . T h i s fir s t
v is it t h a t y o u h a d f r o m C o lo n e l M o u k a n g w e w a s t h e 3 r d O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e n I a m n o t g o i n g to d e a l w i t h t h e – t h e

L a b o u r C o u r t a p p li c a t io n y e t .

T h e n t h e f o l lo w in g y e a r o n W e d n e s d a y

t h e 2 4 t h F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 is i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u w e r e a g a in v is i t e d b y
members of the Hawks?

If you have a look at paragraph 107 of your

s t a te m e n t p a g e 3 2 .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

P l e a s e c o u l d y o u te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t

happened?
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I a m s o r r y I t h in k – I th in k w e s h o u l d s a y f o r w h a t it

is w o r t h M s W e n t z e l .

Yo u – M r K h u b a y o u d i d i n O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 y o u

lo d g e d a n a p p lic a ti o n in t h e L a b o u r C o u r t c h a l le n g i n g y o u r d i s m is s a l , is
t h a t r ig h t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u h a v e a t t a c h e d y o u r fo u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t a n d

lo s s o f m o t io n a s A n n e x u r e H I K 2 5 ?

Page 111 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

M s W e n t z e l w il l n o t g o to t h a t n o w b u t j u s t fo r t h e

s e q u e n c e l e t u s d o – I w a n t e d u s to r e c o r d th e s e q u e n c e . A n d t h e n th a t
it s e e m s w a s d e c i d e d i n A p r i l 2 0 1 7 . S h e w ill d e a l w i t h t h a t l a t e r. In t h e
m e a n t i m e t h e n s h e w a n ts to t a l k t o y o u a b o u t w h a t is in 1 0 7 .

O k a y.

T h e n y o u c a n c o n ti n u e M s W e n t z e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o if y o u c a n h a v e a lo o k a t
paragraph 107 of your statement.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I r e c e i v e d a v is i ta t io n a g a in fr o m
10

m e m b e r s o f th e H a w k s i t w a s o n t h e 2 4 t h F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s h o u l d n o t a s k h i m t o l o o k a t it u n le s s h e s a y s h e
w a n ts t o r e fr e s h h is m e m o r y. Yo u j u s t a s k h i m a q u e s t i o n a n d th e n h e
c a n t e ll th e s t o r y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

N o I in t e n d e d h i m t o d o t h a t I j u s t

w a n t e d h i m t o u n d e r s ta n d w h e r e – y o u k n o w w h a t i t i s w h a t – ju s t f o r
the dates.
CHAIRPERSON: What happened in February 2016? Did you have any
m e e ti n g o r v is i t b y m e m b e r s o f t h e H a w k s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Te ll m e m o r e . Te ll m e a b o u t t h a t v i s i t ? W h o v is i t e d
y o u ? W h e r e i t w a s ? A n d w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d .
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t w a s B r i g a d ie r X a b a .

It was

Sewela I do not remember the rank.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c a n r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y i f y o u w a n t to l o o k a t

t h e n a m e s th a t i s f in e .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y. A n d C o l o n e l M a l u l e k e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A n d th o s e t h r e e w h e n th e y

came.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s d id t h e y m a k e a n a p p o i n t m e n t b e f o r e o r n o t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I cannot remember whether

there was any appointment made.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e y c a m e t o y o u r h o u s e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d t h a t is w h e n t h e y t o ld m e

a b o u t t h e c a s e o f d e f e a t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D e f e a t in g th e e n d s o f j u s ti c e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : E n d s o f j u s ti c e .
CHAIRPERSON: ja.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A n d fr a u d .

But when they

s h o w e d m e t h e c a s e n u m b e r I r e a l is e d t h a t it i s th e s a m e c a s e n u m b e r
20

t h a t I h a v e a lr e a d y q u o te d i t in m y L a b o u r C o u r t p a p e r s l o n g ti m e a g o
d u r i n g t h e i n i ti a l v is i t i n …
CHAIRPERSON: Of Colonel Mahlangu and …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a i n O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h i c h y o u s a w …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h th e y – h a d w i t h t h e m .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

B u t th is t i m e th e c h a r g e h a d

c h a n g e d . I t is n o l o n g e r p e r ju r i e s n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Fr a u d a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D e f e a t in g th e e n d s o f j u s ti c e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : D e f e a t in g th e e n d s o f j u s ti c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s . A n d t h e y t o l d m e t h a t t h e y
10

w e r e in v e s ti g a t in g – t h e y w a n t e d m y w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t h e H a w k s o f c o u r s e a t t h a t ti m e w e r e u n d e r

G e n e r a l N t le m e z a ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u r f r i e n d .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . T h e o n e w h o a c c o r d i n g t o M r M a h l a n g u
w a s g o in g to r e – h a v e y o u r e i n s ta t e d i f y o u – if y o u s ig n e d a n d –
s t a te m e n t i m p l ic a t i n g M r Mc B r i d e a n d Mr S e s o k o .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t. Ye s c o n t i n u e .
20

MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

S o I t h e n a g r e e d th a t I w i ll

s u b m i t a s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t d id th e y s a y t o y o u a n d w h a t d i d y o u s a y to
t h e m ? I w a n t t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: They told me about the charges
a n d t h e y g a v e m e q u e s t io n s . T h e y w e r e q u e s ti o n s I t h i n k th e y w e r e u p

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t o I th in k i t w a s 2 1 o r c a n n o t r e m e m b e r v iv id ly n o w.

But those

q u e s t io n s w e r e w r i t t e n d o w n t o s a y d i d y o u d o a r e p o r t w i t h C o lo n e l
Moukangwe? Did you sub – those type of things?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d w h a t I d id …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s t h e r e a p u r p o s e – w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e ir v is i t
t o g iv e y o u t h o s e q u e s t io n s o r w a s t h e p u r p o s e t o s e r v e y o u w i t h a
c h a r g e s h e e t o r s u m m o n s o r w h a t w a s t h e ir p u r p o s e ? T h e p u r p o s e o f
t h e ir v is i t ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e w e r e n o n o t – th e y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id n o t s a y w h a t t h e p u r p o s e w a s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t h e y j u s t i n d ic a te d th a t th e r e
is t h is c a s e o f a l t e r a t i o n o f r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

W e w a n t t o o b t a i n a w a r n in g

s t a te m e n t fr o m y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e y w a n te d t o g e t a w a r n i n g s t a te m e n t fr o m y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n I t o o k t h e q u e s ti o n s a n d I
s a i d I a m g o in g to s u b m i t a w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O f w h ic h I d id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t I t h i n k I n e e d t o p u t th is i n

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
c o n te x t . B e c a u s e t h a t w a s fo r th e f ir s t ti m e t h a t I t o ld m y s e l f th a t n o w
h e r e I a m g o in g to s a y i t a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I n m y s t a t e m e n t . A t t h a t ti m e I
h a d n o t y e t e v e n to l d Mc B r i d e a b o u t t h e v i s i ta t io n I g o t f r o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o lo n e l M a h l a n g u .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

N t le m e z a , M d l u l i a n d t h a t o n e

was …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o r r y N tl e m e z a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

Te l li n g m e a b o u t b e i n g s e e n

by…
CHAIRPERSON: Dramat.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : G e n e r a l M d lu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h o s e p a r t s – th o s e d e t a i ls …
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a d n o t s h a r e d t h e m w i t h M r M c Br id e a n d M r

Sesoko.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : E v e n Mr S e s o k o d i d n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

N o w I f e l t t h a t t h is ti m e l e t m e

o p e n t h e li d a n d I w a s d o in g i t o u t o f th e f e e li n g th a t I h e l d th e s e c r e t
w h ic h i f I d o n o t s a y i t o u t i t w ill n e v e r b e k n o w n .
s t a te m e n t .

S o I t h e n d id t h e

W h e n I d i d t h e s t a te m e n t a t t h e b o t t o m t h e r e w h e n I

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
fi n a l is e d th e s ta t e m e n t th e n I s ta r t e d t o r e s p o n d t o t h o s e q u e s ti o n s . I
t h i n k m y w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n t w e r e a l m o s t e l e v e n p a g e s t h e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A n d th e n t w o o r t h r e e o r o n e

p a g e – l e t u s s a y a r o u n d t w o p a g e s m i g h t h a v e b e e n t h e r e s p o n s e to
the questions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR

HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

N o w I to o k

s t a te m e n t a n d w e n t t o t h e o ff ic e o f B r i g a d i e r X a b a .
10

th e w a r n i n g

H e h a d h ir e d o r

r e q u e s t e d s o m e b o d y to g i v e h i m a n o ffic e i n P o l o k w a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o it d ir e c t e d m e w h e r e I h a d t o
submit that statement.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o t h e r w is e w e r e t h e s e p e o p l e fr o m G a u te n g o r

were they Limpopo people?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

F r o m – I t h i n k th e y w e r e fr o m

Gauteng.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
20

T h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d th e r e I

g a v e h i m t h e s ta t e m e n t.

I was accompanied with a lawyer whom I

requested from Limpopo.

Th e o n e w h o a s s is t e d m e t o w r i te t h o s e

le t t e r s d e m a n d i n g fo r R 8 0 0 0 .0 0 . N o w t h is l a w y e r w a s th a t h e r e a d t h e
s t a te m e n t – w e s a t t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Just before you get there.

If you have got those

le t t e r s p l e a s e g iv e th e m – c o p ie s t o t h e l e g a l t e a m w h e r e y o u w e r e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
w r i t in g t o t h e h e a d o ff ic e o f I P I D a s k i n g t h e m t o p a y y o u r c la i m a n d
t h e y w e r e n o t d o in g th a t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w il l c h e c k t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y c o n ti n u e .
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :
h a n d e d o v e r th e s t a te m e n t .

Then the – we handed – I

Before I could sign because there are

s o m e p r o c e s s e s t h a t n e e d t o b e fo ll o w e d w h e n y o u a r e ta k e – y o u a r e
o b t a i n in g a w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n t. I t is n o t s i m p ly a n is s u e o f s ig n i n g a n d
– h e r e a d i t a n d p r e – h e p r e p a r e d s o m e t h i n g t h a t e n t a i ls t h e r i g h t s o f
10

t h e p e r s o n s o t h a t o n e c o u l d u n d e r s ta n d a s a s u s p e c t th a t w h a te v e r h e
s a y s is g o i n g t o b e u s e d i n t h e c o u r t o f l a w. N o w w h e n h e r e a d i t h e
said to me – in the middle he just stopped.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s th a t n o w ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r a tt o r n e y o r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B r i g a d i e r X a b a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h B r i g a d i e r X a b a ja .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e r e a d i t w h il e y o u w e r e t h e r e .

20

M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

I was there I was seated there

b e c a u s e I w a n te d to s i g n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

He read it and he took my

w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t s o m e w h e r e in th e m i d d l e h e p u t i t o n t h e t a b l e .
[ In d is ti n c t ] M r K h u b a w a s h e t h i s n e c e s s a r y to s a y ? Th a t is w h a t h e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
asked.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I said to him for me it was

n e c e s s a r y b u t m y l a w y e r w a s q u i c k to s a y y o u c a n n o t r e a lly t e l l w h a t
t h e s u s p e c t n e e d s to s a y. I t is h i s r ig h t . S o h e t h e n t o o k a n d h e w a s
n o lo n g e r w il li n g . I c o u l d s e e t h a t h e t o o k t h e p a g e w h e r e I w a s j u s t
h a d to s i g n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t h e w a s n o t r e a ll y …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s n o t h a p p y w i th y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s n o t h a p p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s n o t h a p p y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e n a ft e r t h a t I s i g n e d a n d I

r e q u e s t e d a c o p y w h ic h I g o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f y o u h a v e a l o o k a t p a g e 3 5 1 o f th e b u n d l e i t
is A n n e x u r e 2 7 .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t s a y 2 5 1 ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 351.
CHAIRPERSON: 351.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s t h is th e s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r in g t o
where you said you are now going to set the truth out?
CHAIRPERSON: The warning statement.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: The warning statement?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d a s y o u t e s ti f ie d y o u s e t o u t e v e r y t h i n g

t h a t h a d o c c u r r e d a n d i t w a s o n l y i n t h e l a s t p a r t o f th e s t a te m e n t fr o m
p a g e 3 6 1 t h a t y o u s a y y o u w il l r e s p o n d t o t h e r e m a in i n g q u e s t i o n s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D o y o u k n o w w h a t i t w a s i n t h e s t a t e m e n t th a t
t h e G e n e r a l h a d p r o b l e m w i t h o r t h e Br ig a d i e r h a d a p r o b l e m w i t h ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
10

I could not see what he was

r e a d in g b u t s o m e w h e r e s o m e h o w w h il e h e w a s r e a d i n g – h e t o o k a b i t
o f ti m e b u t h e r e a c h a p a r t w h e r e h e s e e m s a s h e c o u l d n o t c o n ti n u e
a n d th e n h e s a i d : “ Wa s i t n e c e s s a r y Mr K h u b a to p u t t h i s t h in g i n ? ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d is i t c o r r e c t th a t t h is s ta t e m e n t is

s u b s t a n t ia ll y i n li n e w i th w h a t y o u h a v e te s ti f ie d h e r e t o d a y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr K h u b a w e r e y o u la t e r a r r e s t e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d p l e a s e c o u ld y o u t e l l …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Was that on the 16 March 2016?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV

SUSAN

WENTZEL:

Please

could

you

t e ll

the

C h a ir

th e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s o f y o u r a r r e s t ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : W e f ir s tl y w e n t t o t h e s o c a ll e d

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C AT S o ff ic e t h a t t h e o ffic e o f a u n i t h e a d e d b y B r ig a d i e r X a b a w h ic h
w a s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r c r i m e s a g a i n s t t h e s t a t e . W e h a d a m e e ti n g s a y i n g
t h a t w e a r e g o in g t o b e a p p e a r in g o n t h is d a t e . W e h a d a d is c u s s i o n o f
t h e b a il – b a il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h i s s ta g e w h e n y o u w e r e b e i n g – w h e n y o u w e r e
a r r e s t e d y o u r c a s e in t h e L a b o u r C o u r t w a s s t il l p e n d i n g ?

It had not

been dealt with – decided yet?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

C h a ir p e r s o n I w o u l d w a n t t o

c o v e r t h a t p a r t b e c a u s e t h e r e is a ls o a b a r g a i n i n g c o u n c i l .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

W h ic h I w a n t t o t a lk t o . I f y o u

a l lo w m e I c a n s t a r t w i t h i t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d j u s t i n d ic a te w h a t h a p p e n e d
b e f o r e I c o m e t o th e i s s u e o f t h e a r r e s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If in t e r m s o f th e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h a p p e n e d l a te r t h a t is fi n e b u t o th e r w is e i f i t is n o t
g o i n g t o d i s o r g a n i s e y o u r p la n y o u c a n d e a l w i t h t h e a r r e s t a n d t h e n
20

d e a l w i t h – w i th th a t . W h i c h o n e is – w o u l d i t m a k e – e n a b l e y o u to te ll
your story better?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c a n d e a l w i t h t h e L a b o u r is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L a t e r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w O k a y.

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MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A n d j u s t f in a l is e s o t h a t –

b e c a u s e t h e a r r e s t to o k p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y d e a l w it h t h e la b o u r i s s u e .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e l a b o u r is s u e a s I i n d ic a te d
t o – i n m y l e tt e r t o M r K g a m a n y a n e w h ic h o f c o u r s e h e d i d d i s r e g a r d
w a s t h a t I w a s g o in g to m a k e a n a p p l ic a t i o n a t th e h i g h c o u r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To – y e s .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To r e q u e s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e t ti n g a s i d e o f th e s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

S e t ti n g a s i d e o f t h e s e t tl e m e n t

a g r e e m e n t . I h a d a lr e a d y s p o k e n to a p e r s o n w o r k i n g a t t h e l a b o u r – a t
t h e u n io n – t h e P S A a n d a lr e a d y i n d i c a t e d t h a t y o u n e e d to c o m e a n d
s e e m e s o t h a t w e c a n d is c u s s th is i s s u e .

N o w I th e n h a d a

s u b s e q u e n t m e e ti n g w i th h i m a n d h e s a i d t h e u r g e n t a p p li c a t io n P S A
w i ll n o t b e a b le to c o v e r.

A n d t h a t i s w h e n I t h e n tu r n e d t o a n o t h e r

la w y e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O h y o u r a p p lic a ti o n t o th e L a b o u r C o u r t w a s a n

u r g e n t a p p l ic a ti o n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s a n u r g e n t a p p l ic a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
aside.

B e c a u s e I w a n t e d th e m t o s e t

W h e n I h a d a d is c u s s io n w i th m y la w y e r n o t Mr P o k o t h e n e w

o n e n o w.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w h o w a s th e – w a s t h a t t h e o n e w h o h e l p e d
y o u w i th t h e le t t e r s o r w a s t h a t s o m e b o d y e ls e ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

It was somebody else.

It was

t h e o n e w h o w a s h e l p in g M r S e s o k o . I t w a s M r M a th i b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a t h i b e o k a y.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a . A n d I r e q u e s te d – t h e n h e
a d v is e d th a t w h e n y o u c h a l le n g e
C H A I R P E R S O N : A d is m is s a l.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A d is m i s s a l y o u d o n o t h a v e t o
10

c h a l le n g e p e r s e t h e a g r e e m e n t b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e l a b o u r m a t t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

Yo u n e e d t o g o th r o u g h t o th e

la b o u r c o u r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w I fo ll o w e d th e a d v is e d i t i s
c o r r e c t a n d t h e n w e s t a r t e d t o w o r k . H e g a v e m e t h e b il l I a c c e p te d i t
in t h e – I d i d n o t h a v e m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e b il l.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s to s a y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u s a i d w e w il l s e e i t l a t e r.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

W e w i ll s e e i t la t e r I j u s t w a n t

the thing to be sorted out.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

W e w e r e g iv e n th e d a t e o f –

w h e n w a s t h a t – th a t w a s t h e 1 5 t h I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll b u t it

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
w a s s h o r tl y a ft e r th e – t h e y w e r e v e r y q u ic k .

They give us the date.

And the advocate was helping me.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

Was a junior advocate and he

s a i d n o h e i s c o n fi d e n t th a t w e a r e g o in g t o r e a ll y m a k e i t . B u t w h e n
w e w e n t t h e r e I t h in k t h e a r g u m e n t o f t h e e m p l o y e r w a s t h a t t h i s m a tt e r
is n o t u r g e n t. T h e y d i d n o t d w e l l o n th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e m e r i ts .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
10

O n th e m e r i ts o n t h e s u b j e c t .

N o w a ft e r t h a t it m e a n s th a t I h a d t o w a i t f o r th e b a r g a i n i n g c o u n c il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e – j a th e d is p u te a b o u t t h e d is m is s a l .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s r e f e r r e d t o t h e b a r g a i n i n g c o u n c il .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

Now Mr Poko had prepared

p a p e r s a n d th e n w e w e r e g iv e n a d a t e fo r t h e c o n c i li a ti o n p a r t . A n d I
s t il l r e m e m b e r t h e e m p lo y e r r e p r e s e n ta t iv e w a s t h e r e .

I went there I

w a s a ls o r e p r e s e n te d b y Mr P o k o .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: When we – we had a discussion
b e c a u s e t h e y w a n t e d u s t o s t a te t h e c a s e a n d t h e n t h e e m p l o y e r r e p
a ls o

s t a te d

th e

case.

During

your

d is c u s s i o n

the

e m p lo y e r

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e in d i c a t e d th a t w e w e r e g iv e n m a n d a te s n o t t o s e t t l e o r
e n t e r t a i n th is .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e e m p l o y e r ’s r e p r e s e n t a tiv e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja yes.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w s h e w a n te d to k n o w t h e

f a c ts w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d t h e r e a n d th e r e s h e in d i c a t e d t h a t y o u a r e n o t
going to succeed here.

W h y d i d y o u n o t h a v e a h e a r i n g – th e y w e r e

t a lk in g a n d t h e y w e r e j u s t r e a ll y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Th e y k n o w w e w e r e t o l d to c o m e
10

and do this.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th e n a f te r t h a t w e le f t . Th a t
is t h e f ir s t t i m e t h a t I h a d a m e a n in g f u l s m il e . T h a t s o m e b o d y c o mi n g
fr o m a n i n s ti t u ti o n h a s a lr e a d y g a t h e r e d t h e s e fa c t s .

A n d th e n a f te r

t h a t w e w a i t e d n o w f o r a r b i tr a t i o n . It t o o k f o r q u it e s o m e ti m e . T h e n
w e w e r e t o l d – a n d t h e y d e c i d e d t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o h e a r in g w e
a r e n o t g o i n g t o le a d a n y e v i d e n c e .

W e a r e g o in g to p r e p a r e

a r g u m e n ts . A n d I s ti ll r e m e m b e r w e – th e y d i d a r e s e a r c h – t h e r e w a s
a ls o a s i m i la r c a s e lik e m i n e a n d t h e y s a y a n e m p l o y e r c a n n o t r e p la c e
20

a n y s a n c t io n b y a c h a ir p e r s o n .
cannot do anything.

W h e n t h e c h a ir p e r s o n d e c i d e y o u

B e c a u s e y o u h a v e a p p o in t e d t h a t c h a ir p e r s o n t o

r e p r e s e n t y o u a s a n e m p l o y e r a n d h is d e c is io n a b o u t t h e m a t t e r i t is
w h a t c lo s e s t h e c a s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

That case may have been the case of BMW in the

Labour Appeal Court a number of years ago?

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
MR

HUMBULANI

INNOCENT

KHUBA:

I

think

you

are

correct

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t I h a p p e n to k n o w.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d t h e n w e d id o u r s u b m i s s i o n .
I w a s v e r y, v e r y, v e r y c o n f i d e n t . N o w a ft e r th a t I w a s to ld t h a t w i th in
f o u r t e e n d a y s I a m g o in g t o g e t t h e a w a r d . I t m i g h t h a v e t a k e n m o r e
t h a n 3 0 o r 3 5 d a y s . N o w t h e r e w a s th is p e r s o n w h o m I w a s – I g o t h is
10

n u m b e r – h e w a s th e p e r s o n w h o w a s d e a l in g w i t h .

Because when I

p h o n e d t h e b a r g a i n i n g c o u n c il th e y to l d m e t h a t i f y o u w a n t a w a r d y o u
d e a l w i t h th is p e r s o n . S o I w a s d e a li n g w it h t h a t p e r s o n . N o w w h e n i t
c o m e t o th e 2 1 s t I c o u ld n o t t a k e i t a n y m o r e a n d I s a i d – c a n y o u te ll
m e w h a t is h a p p e n i n g ? A n d h e s a y s – n o , n o , n o I w i ll c o m e b a c k t o
y o u t h e y a r e b u s y d e a l i n g w i t h t h i s is s u e . A n d I w a s p h o n i n g h i m d a il y.
I w o u l d n o t m i n d t h a t I c a ll e d h i m t h e p r e v i o u s d a y I w i ll k e e p o n c a lli n g
him. Now this other day – that was the day before he sent a report. He
m e n ti o n e d s o m e t h in g t h a t I f e l t th e r e is s o m e t h i n g g o in g o n . A n d – b u t
I d o w n p l a y e d b e c a u s e y o u d e s ir e c e r ta i n r e s u l ts y o u k i n d o f r e a l ly
20

s h u n y o u r m i n d fr o m t h e n e g a t iv e s . A n d th e n h e s a y s : th e p r o c e s s h e r e
– h e w a s tr y i n g to e x p la in t h e d e l a y. H e s a y s t h e p r o c e s s h e r e i t t a k e s
1 4 d a y s t o g iv e a n a w a r d b u t th e r e is a p a n e l t h a t s i ts b e c a u s e t h e
p r e s i d in g o ff ic e r s o f th is a r b i tr a t i o n a r e n o t th e e m p l o y e e s t h e y g e t
them from outside.

H e s a i d th is p e r s o n i f y o u r i g h t – h e d i d n o t

in d i c a t e o r – th is p e r s o n i s t h e o n e t h a t h e s a i d – i f y o u g i v e a r e p o r t

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a n d a f in d i n g w h i c h t h e p a n e l d o e s n o t a g r e e w i t h i t t h e y w il l e n g a g e
y o u a n d w r i te b a c k to y o u . B u t i f y o u s a y s i t is m y r e p o r t I w il l s ti c k
w i t h t h e – th e y w il l n e v e r c h a n g e i t. I t is u p to y o u . T h a t i s w h y i t h a d
t o t a k e lo n g . A n d w h e n I g o t t h is r e p o r t n o w – a r b i tr a ti o n a w a r d I w a s
ju s t s e a te d o n t h e b e d a n d I w a s c h e c k i n g o n t h e – o n t h e e m a il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it c a m e t h r o u g h ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d i t c a m e t h r o u g h t h a t is t h e
f o ll o w i n g d a y.

W h e n i t c a m e th r o u g h I r e a d th e r e p o r t .

I could not

b e li e v e th e fi n d i n g .
10

CHAIRPERSON: What was the finding?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e f in d in g w a s t h a t m y p o s it i o n
w a s s o s e n i o r th a t i t d id n o t r e q u ir e t h a t h e a r i n g . T h a t Mr K g a m a n y a n e
la t e r r e q u e s ti n g m e to e x p l a i n w h y I d i d n o t – w h y I d e p o s e a s t a te m e n t
a m o u n t t o a ff o r d i n g m e w it h a n o p p o r t u n i ty s i m il a r to a h e a r i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : H e s a i d t h e d is m is s a l w a s b o t h
f a ir a n d h e in d ic a t e d a n o th e r w o r d w h ic h I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Va li d a n d f a i r o r s o m e th in g l ik e t h a t o r f a ir a n d

e q u it a b l e .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t I l o o k e d a t t h is r e p o r t a n d I
h a d to c a ll m y l a w y e r.

A n d o n e t i m e a f t e r th e s e p r e s e n t a t i o n s w e r e

s e r v e d m y l a w y e r s a id to m e t h e c h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e h e a r i n g is t h e
g e n tl e m a n I w o r k w i t h b e c a u s e I a m s o m e ti m e s r e q u e s t e d b y t h e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
b a r g a i n in g c o u n c i l t o – h e k n o w s h i m v e r y w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To a r b i tr a te .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e k n o w s h i m v e r y w e ll . N o w I
w a s n o t r e a l ly s e t t le d o n th e b a s i s th a t t h e y – o n t h e b a s is t h a t th e
k n o w e a c h o t h e r. I w a s s e t tl e d o n t h e b a s i s t h a t m y c a s e is s tr o n g . H e
is g o i n g t o b e o b j e c t iv e . A n d t h e n a f te r t h a t w h e n I g o t t h i s I p h o n e d
m y l a w y e r a n d m y l a w y e r s a id t o m e M r K h u b a y o u c a n j u s t s u s p e c t
what happened.

T h i s c a s e i n v o lv e s b i g p e o p l e p o l i tic ia n a n d h e

dropped the phone.
10

A n d th a t p a r t I r e a l is e d t h a t I w a s d e a li n g w i th

b i g g e r m o n s t e r t h a n w h a t I th o u g h t . I t h e n – a t t h e t i m e I h a d n o t y e t
c la i m e d m y p a ti e n c e . I w a s j u s t w o r k i n g . Yo u k n o w I s t a r te d s o m e t h i n g
p u t t in g i n b o a r d s th a t I c a n c l e a n c a r p e ts g o in g to h o u s e s . A n d n o w I
w a s d o i n g th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o e a r n a l iv i n g i n th e m e a n ti m e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To e a r n a l iv in g . T h e n I s a i d to
m y w i f e I s a id I d o n o t w a n t t o s t o p th a t jo b .

But let me claim my

p e n s i o n s o t h a t w h e n I h a v e d e f ic i t I w i ll j u s t t a k e p r o b a b ly a li t t le b i t o f
in t e r e s t a n d d r o p i n t o t h e d e f ic it s o t h a t I c a n b e a b le to b r e a k e v e n .
A n d s h e a g r e e d . B e c a u s e I r e a ll y r e a lis e d t h e r e t h a t t h e j o u r n e y w a s
20

g o i n g t o b e l o n g . I r e a lis e d t h e j o u r n e y w a s g o i n g t o b e l o n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

Having heard that to get your

c a s e fi n a l ly h e a r d b y L a b o u r C o u r t i t w i ll t a k e n e a r l y tw o y e a r s . S o I
r e a l is e d t h a t t h e j o u r n e y w a s g o in g t o b e lo n g a n d t h e n I s t a r t e d t o –
t h e r e a l it y s ta r t e d to s i n k i n a t t h a t ti m e .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n d i d y o u t h e n la u n c h a r e v ie w a p p l ic a ti o n
in t h e L a b o u r C o u r t o r w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

To s e t a s i d e th a t – th a t a w a r e a n d to – t o t r y

a n d g e t r e i n s t a te d ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

That is correct. And when the

P S A s t u d i e d t h e r e p o r t I s ti ll r e m e m b e r I m e t w i th t h e h e a d n o w n o t
w i t h th e p e r s o n w h o w a s a s s is ti n g m e i n i t ia lly. T h e h e a d o f P S A a t a
P r o v i n c ia l l e v e l a n d h e j u s t s a id I c a n n o t b e l ie v e t h e s e fi n d i n g s . A n d
10

w h a t h e d i d t h e n w a s to s a y I w il l m o t iv a t e t h a t th e y a p p r o v e t h e r e v i e w
o f t h i s a n d t h a t is w h a t h e d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a r e v i e w a p p lic a ti o n in t h e
L a b o u r C o u r t?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e r e w a s a r e v ie w a p p l ic a t i o n

a n d I g o t – t h e r e w a s a f i n a l ju d g m e n t w h ic h w a s m a d e I t h i n k i t w a s
A p r il 2 0 1 7
CHAIRPERSON: 17.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : 1 7 . I t w a s a l m o s t a y e a r a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I th i n k th e r e is a r e f e r e n c e t o 2 0 1 7 . J a .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

2017.

It was a year and seven

m o n th s o r …
CHAIRPERSON: And - and what was the out - the order that was made
there?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e o r d e r w a s m a d e th a t th e

d is m i s s a l w a s b o t h - w a s u n f a ir.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s a c o n tr a r y o f w h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e p e r s o n s a i d , j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u - y o u w e r e r e in s t a t e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I w a s r e in s ta t e d a n d a ls o th e

o r d e r w a s l ik e v e r y - s o m e h o w I fe l t t h a t i t w a s a li t tl e b i t …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : U n f a ir ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t u n f a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Because the department was

g iv e n o n ly fiv e d a y s to p a y …
CHAIRPERSON: A lot of money?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To p a y b a c k - I m e a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r b a c k p a y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M y b a c k p a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Oh.

Yo u - y o u - o h .

Oh.

Yo u - y o u th o u g h t- y o u

t h o u g h t t h e y s h o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n m o r e ti m e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t f in a lly w h a t - o f c o u r s e t h e

o n e w h ic h I w a s r e a l ly i n te r e s t e d I w a s r e a lly h a p p y a b o u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e jo b ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s g o i n g b a c k t o w o r k . E v e n
if t h e y h a d s a i d t h e y w i ll ta k e a n o t h e r y e a r to p a y.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, you …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I n e v e r h a d a p r o b l e m .
CHAIRPERSON: As long as you got your job back?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

That is why when the employer

a p p r o a c h e d m e t h e y s a i d t h e r e is th is o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

We have a problem that we

c a n n o t j u s t i m p l e m e n t i t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e s p a c e is v e r y s h o r t.

We

r e q u e s t e d t h a t y o u g iv e u s s o m e m o r e ti m e . I …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d b u t t h a t t i m e t h e - t h e E x e c u ti v e D ir e c to r w a s

back?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s a lr e a d y b a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M c B r i d e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s a lr e a d y b a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b a s ic a l ly i t w a s h is d e c i s i o n n o w ?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th e n I - I c a m e b a c k t o th e
department …

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e y o u p a i d u l t i m a te l y f o r t h e w h o l e t i m e t h a t y o u
had not been working?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is c o r r e c t i n c l u d in g a l l t h e

b e n e fi ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l t h e b e n e f i ts , j a .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . I a m s u r e y o u w e r e v e r y h a p p y a n d
10

t h e f a m ily w a s v e r y h a p p y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Yo u s e e C h a ir p e r s o n s o m e t i m e s
I was happy …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t s o m e t i m e s w e n o r m a lly g a i n
m o r e th a n w h a t - w e n o r m a l ly g a in le s s th a n w h a t w e l o s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e t o g o …

20

CHAIRPERSON: I understand this yes.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d s t a r t r e b u i ld i n g t h e p e n s i o n
a g a in is a n o th e r is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

When I went back to SARS to

s a y I w a n t to - t o p e n s i o n f u n d .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I want to deposit back my

m o n e y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e y t o l d i t is s u c h a b ig p e n a l ty
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d I r e a li s e d th a t i t is g o i n g t o
be very …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a d i ff ic u l t y. Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : D i ff i c u l t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n a n y e v e n t w h a t e v e r p a i n y o u w e n t t h r o u g h ju s t
b e c a u s e l a te r o n y o u g e t a n o r d e r r e i n s t a ti n g y o u i n y o u r j o b d o e s n o t
mean you did not go through that pain.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s ti ll w e n t th r o u g h t h a t p a in . Th e jo b c o m e s l a t e r
a n d t h e b a c k p a y b u t y o u - y o u a n d t h e f a m ily w e n t th r o u g h t h e - t h a t
pain.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Hm, thank you.

I th in k Ms W e n tz e l w e a r e c l o s e t o

fi n i s h i n g w i t h h i m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s f i n is h b e f o r e a n d t h e n w e t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . N o . W e - w e a r e v ir tu a lly f in is h e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h e a r b i tr a ti o n a w a r d a n d t h e L a b o u r C o u r t

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
ju d g m e n t …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Are they both here?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o , b u t I w il l m a k e t h e m a v a i la b le .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , p u t t h e m i n s o th a t w e h a v e a c o m p l e te p i c t u r e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . W e w i ll . I a m a f r a i d n o w t h a t w e
h a v e d e a lt w i t h t h e - a h a p p y r e s u l t c a n w e g o b a c k a n d r e m e m b e r y o u r
10

arrest.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e g o b a c k to p a i n a n d s u ffe r i n g .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ja.

I was arrested on the 16th

and …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: The 16th of what?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s - l e t m e j u s t …
CHAIRPERSON: Page - paragraph 1-1-1.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w a s a r r e s te d o n 1 6 M a r c h 2 0 1 6
f o r d e f e a t in g th e e n d s o f j u s t ic e a n d I t h i n k ju s t - t o ju s t g i v e a l i t tl e b i t
is t h a t I t h o u g h t p r o b a b ly w e a r e j u s t g o in g t o g o th e r e a n d a p p e a r.
T h e y a r e g o in g s e r v e u s w i th J 1 7 5 b u t w e w e r e a r r e s t e d .

We went

t h r o u g h th e c e ll s a n d i t w a s - i t w a s v e r y tr a u m a t ic f o r m e b e c a u s e w e w e w e n t th r o u g h - w e h a d a g r o u p o f o t h e r p e o p l e w h o w e r e g o i n g f o r

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
court.
W e w e r e p u t i n a b i g h a l l w h e r e t h e r e w e r e o t h e r s u s p e c ts o r
c r i m i n a ls o r - b u t I t h in k w h a t - w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g w a s e v e r y b o d y w a s
s t a r in g a t u s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

O n t h e b a s is t h a t w e w e r e t h e

o n ly p e o p l e w e a r in g s u i t s ( i n d is ti n c t ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , h m .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

requested a belt.

A n d th e y w e r e r e q u e s t e d - th e y

I s ti ll r e m e m b e r I t o o k o u t m in e .

F o r tu n a te ly t h e

tr o u s e r w a s - tr o u s e r w a s v e r y t ig h t . I c o u ld n o t h o l d i t b y m y h a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t h e n - w e th e n w e n t fo r

fi n g e r p r i n t s . W e t h e n jo in e d o t h e r s a g a i n a n d a f te r t h a t t h e y d e c i d e d t o
g iv e u s o u r b e l ts b a c k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

An d I think there was mention

o n e o ff ic e r in d ic a t e d b e c a u s e Mr M c B r i d e h a d a p r o b l e m w i t h t h e is s u e
o f t h e b e l ts .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

He said why would you need

t h e s e b e l ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex a c t ly.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d t h e n th e y s a i d - h e s a i d

w h a t i f y o u h a n g y o u r s e lf a n d M r Mc B r id e s a y s …

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n w e r e y o u p r is o n e r s a l r e a d y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

M r M c Br i d e i n d ic a te d t h a t h e

h a d b e e n i n t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t) fo r s o m e t i m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e g a ll o w s ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W a i ti n g t o b e h a n g e d a n d n e v e r
d e c i d e d to d i e . W h y w o u l d h e h a n g h i m s e lf b y t h i s t h i n g t h a t d o e s n o t
h a v e a n y - i t d o e s n o t h a v e a h e a d a n d a t a i l a n d t h e n - th a t is w h e n h e
d e c i d e d t o g iv e u s o u r b e l t s b a c k . T h e y g a v e u s a s m a l l c e l l . W e w e n t
10

a n d s a t t h e r e a n d t h e n w e w e n t t o c o u r t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

J u s t o n e fi n a l q u e s ti o n .

Mr S e s o k o te s t i fi e d

t h a t r e c e n t ly th e r e h a s b e e n a P u b l ic P r o te c to r ’s R e p o r t i m p l ic a ti n g
him.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A r e y o u a ls o i m p l ic a t e d i n t h a t r e p o r t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I

am

a ls o

i m p lic a t e d

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h a t r e p o r t i s t h a t ?
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u r e m e m b e r M r S e s o k o t e s t i fi e d t h a t t h e r e

is a r e c e n t r e p o r t b y t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. I t h a d c o m e o u t I t h i n k i n th e
- t h e la s t w e e k - i n t h e w e e k t h a t h e w a s te s ti fy in g o r i n th e p r e v i o u s
week.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , b u t h a v e y o u f in is h e d o n t h e a r r e s te d a n d

prosecution?

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is s u e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u r r ig h t . S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k f in is h o n th e …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: On the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e p r o s e c u ti o n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

W h a t u lt i m a t e l y h a p p e n e d t o y o u r - y o u r

criminal case?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W e h a d t h r e e c o u r t a p p e a r a n c e s
if I r e m e m b e r w e l l a n d t h e n th e y w e r e j u s t b e i n g p o s t p o n e d a n d w e
r e a l is e d th a t t h e s t a t e w a s j u s t b u y i n g t i m e . T h e y w i ll r e fu s e to g iv e u s
a c e r t a i n p a r t o f t h e d o c k e t t h a t w e h a v e r ig h t o v e r a n d t h e y i n d ic a te d
t h a t n o , n o , n o t h a t is s e n s i t iv e i n fo r m a t i o n .
So we ended up saying no, no, no you can keep whatever you
k e e p . W h a t y o u a r e g iv i n g u s w e a r e g o i n g to u s e th a t a n d t h a t is w h e n
w e a p p e a r e d o n 1 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 6 a n d I w a s r e a d y w i t h m y s t a te m e n t in
o r d e r t o p l e a to s a y I p l e a d n o t g u i l ty a n d t h a t is w h e n t h e p r o s e c u t o r

20

r e fu s e d t o c o n ti n u e w it h th e c a s e .
W e p r e s s u r is e d h i m s a y i n g w e w a n t t o c o n ti n u e . H e s a i d n o
t h is c a s e is n o t w i n n a b le .

Th e r e is a C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t j u d g m e n t .

Yo u p e o p le w e r e d o i n g y o u r w o r k . T h e r e w e r e a l o t o f j u s t e x p l a n a t io n
ju g g l in g a r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w a s th e p r o s e c u t o r s a y in g t h is t o y o u ?

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M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o e ff e c t iv e ly s a y i n g t h e s t a te h a s n o c a s e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s s a y i n g t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

H e a l s o s a id th a t n o w t h e

w i t n e s s e s d o n o t w a n t t o c o m e f o r w a r d a n d t e s ti fy a n d w e w e r e
s u r p r is e d b e c a u s e t h e r e i s a - a r e m e d y f o r t h a t .

Yo u s u b p o e n a a

witness …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

But they said no they - they

c a n n o t d o t h a t u n t il t h e y s a i d n o t h e y a r e w i t h d r a w in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u e v e r u n d e r s ta n d w h o t h o s e w i tn e s s e s w e r e

s u p p o s e d to b e o r - o r w e r e th a t th e y w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
witness

whom

they

were

speaking

Th e y - t h e y s p o k e a b o u t - t h e
about

was

th e

person

who

a c c o m p a n i e d m e t o ta k e a d o c k e t a n d a n y o n e w i ll k n o w t h a t t h a t p e r s o n
d i d n o t p a r t ic i p a te in …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e p o r t .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e o n ly fi le d t h e d o c k e t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

a n d h e i n d ic a te d t h a t n o I

accompanied him …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d I s a i d I a c c o m p a n i e d h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e a c c o m p a n i e d m e . W h a t w a s
that? What was that? What was …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O f e v i d e n t i a l m a t e r i a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In h is s ta t e m e n t?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t t h e y s a y b e c a u s e M c B r i d e is
b a c k h e m a y n o t w a n t t o te s t i fy b u t I j u s t r e a l is e d t h a t n o , n o t h a t w a s
ju s t a n e x c u s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. So you - you - other than that person were you
e v e r t o l d w h o e ls e w a s - w a s u n d e r s t o o d b y t h e s ta t e t o b e s t a te
witnesses?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

It

was

S a n d i le J u ly

of

Werksmans …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e t h e y i n d i c a t e d th a t h e

w a s n o t r e a d y w h e n h e w a s r e a d y t o g o to c o u r t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In o r d e r t o c h a l le n g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s r e f u s in g t o t e s t if y ?

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s r e f u s i n g t o t e s t if y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Bu t I could not understand if

t h e n Mr J u ly c a n s u b - s u b m i t a r e p o r t a n d r e c o m m e n d c r i m i n a l
charges.
CHAIRPERSON: Recommend that you be charged.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And now he turns around and

s a y s n o , n o I r a t h e r to g o t o c o u r t a n d c h a ll e n g e y o u t o s a y I d o n o t
w a n t to g o a n d t e s t if y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t w a s s tr a n g e in d e e d .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s s tr a n g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s l ik e h e w a s n o t p r e p a r e d t o s t a n d in c o u r t
a n d - a n d s h o w w h y h is c o n c lu s i o n s w e r e - w e r e j u s t i fi e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th a t is c o r r e c t a n d - a n d m y -

m y a s s e s s m e n t t h e r e w a s t h a t I d o n o t th i n k t h e s e th i n g s w e r e i n t e n d e d
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

To

have

u l t i m a te

r e s u lt

of

s e r v i n g ju s tic e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s s i m p ly t o h a v e q u ic k w i n s
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Because you can charge me.

T h a t is p r o c e s s …

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

But when you have to prove

there …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In fr o n t o f t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e J u d g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

It

is

a n o t h e r s to r y. S o t h e y d id n o t w a n t t o r e a c h th a t s t a g e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Ye s a n d th e n - a n d t h e n th e c h a r g e s w e r e

withdrawn?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

J u s t f i n a ll y i f y o u c o u l d d e a l w i t h th e r e c e n t

P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t is
c h a l le n g i n g .
20

I a m ju s t g o in g t o g iv e a q u ic k in d ic a t i o n o f w h a t r e a l ly

happened.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

The

P u b li c

Protector

recommended …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

That a number of people within

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
IPID be charged …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t f o r s o m e r e a s o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I a m a ls o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c h a r g e - d is c ip li n a r y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : D is c ip li n a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I a m a ls o p a r t o f t h a t b e c a u s e o f
10

a n a p p o in t m e n t o f a s p e c ia li s t w h o d e a ls w i t h c e l lp h o n e a n a ly s is b u t
w h a t h a p p e n e d is th a t t h e p o s t w a s a d v e r t is e d a n d t h e y d i d s h o r t
lis t in g . I w a s n o t th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I think they did.

T h e y d i d th e

a d v e r t e v e n - b e fo r e I e v e n a r r iv e d in I - I w a s r e i n s t a t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w th e o th e r d a y b e c a u s e I

w a s g iv e n a r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o h e a d t h e t a s k t e a m - a ll t a s k t e a ms in t h e
IPID.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w I w a s w o r k i n g in H e a d

O ff ic e a n d t h e n I w a n t e d to g o t o t h e l i f t a n d th e n I w a s t o l d t h a t t h e r e
is a n in t e r v i e w a n d o n e o f t h e p a n e l m e m b e r s w a s n o t th e r e .

They

r e q u e s t e d m e t o a s s is t a n d I in d i c a t e d to t h e m t h a t w h e n y o u a s s is t in
the panel you need to be appointed.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
S o I s a i d b e c a u s e I a m o n ly p a r t ic i p a ti n g i n t h e - i n t h e
in t e r v ie w I r e q u e s t th a t y o u g e t p e r m i s s i o n . T h e y g o t th e a p p r o v a l o f
the - the ED.

T h e n I s a t i n th e p a n e l .

We recommended but what I

w a n t to s a y is t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t - th e r o l e th a t I p l a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I p l a y e d i t is g o v e r n in g i n te r m s
o f P r o v i s i o n 11 o f …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e p r o c u r e m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o r r y.

Of - for the Recruitment

P o lic y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t t h a t p o l ic y o n t h a t p r o v is i o n
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

It

s p e c i fi c a ll y

say

what

is

e x p e c te d o f a p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h o i t is - w h o i t is in t e r v ie w in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e c o n s is t e n c y w it h p o s in g

q u e s t io n s …

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d a ll - a ll th e th i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e - t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r n e v e r
m a d e a fi n d i n g o n t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t t h e y m a d e a f in d in g th a t I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I w a n t - I a m s o r r y. I w a n t e d to a s k M s W e n t z e l
w h y - w h y m u s t I h e a r a b o u t t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r ’s R e p o r t th a t w a s
10

is s u e d r e c e n t ly ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Because

if

you

remember

Mr S e s o k o ’s

t e s ti m o n y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t is h i s v i e w t h a t t h i s is s ti ll p a r t o f a f i g h t

back.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - b u t h a v e y o u - h a s t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n v e s ti g a te d
t h a t i n r e l a ti o n t o th e c o n d u c t o f t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e ll n o t i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e c o n d u c t o f th e

P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r b u t o n ly fr o m t h e i r p e r s p e c t iv e t h a t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . W h a t I a m a s k in g is i f t h e y s a y t h e P u b l ic
P r o t e c t o r is d o i n g th is - w h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r is d o in g is p a r t o f th e
fi g h t b a c k . H a s t h a t b e i n g …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is b e in g …
CHAIRPERSON:

Te s t e d

by

th e

C o m m is s i o n ?

in v e s t i g a t e d ?

Page 144 of 194

Was

that

b e in g

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is b e in g i n v e s t i g a t e d . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h y d o w e n o t w a i t u n t il …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: That has happened?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b e c a u s e i t is n o t in t h e s t a t e m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . N o . W e w i l l n o t d e a l w i t h i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a r e c e n t t h in g .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

If - i f t h e y s a y i t is p a r t o f w h e t h e r y o u c a ll i t f ig h t

b a c k o r w h a t e v e r y o u n e e d t o g e t s t a t e m e n ts fr o m t h e m . H e a r w h a t th e
s u b s t a n t ia t io n is .

How they substantiate that and then if necessary

then we - we can - can come back …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But I do not think we should …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s t h a t is - th a t is a b o u t it .
CHAIRPERSON: Deal with it …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h e r e i s p r o p e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t - y o u u n d e r s t a n d th a t

Mr Khuba?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I u n d e r s ta n d th a t b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w h a t I a m - w h a t I a m s a y i n g is a n d - a n d i t is
ju s t t h a t I - I - w h e n M r S e s o k o g a v e e v id e n c e I th i n k i t w a s d e a l t w i t h

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
v e r y s u p e r fic i a l ly.

W h a t I a m s a y i n g is i t m a y b e th a t i t is s o m e t h i n g

t h a t s h o u l d b e a d d h e r e b u t i t s h o u ld n o t b e a d d b e fo r e t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e l e g a l te a m t a k e s ta t e m e n ts
a n d l o o k a t i t p r o p e r ly. Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n d I t h in k w e
can deal with it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , i t c a n …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : L a t e r i f i t n e e d s t o b e d e a l t w i t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a t h a t i s r i g h t .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e w e a r e d e a l i n g w i th s o m e th in g
t h a t h a s n o t b e e n p r o p e r ly i n v e s t ig a t e d …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I u n d e r s t a n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it s h o u l d n o t b e l ik e t h a t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir I d o n o t h a v e a n y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Fu r t h e r q u e s ti o n s fo r t h e w i tn e s s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r K h u b a f o r c o m i n g t o
g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d t o s h a r e w i t h t h e C o m m is s i o n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e s a n d
w h a t y o u k n o w.

Yo u p r o b a b l y w i ll c o m e b a c k b e c a u s e t h e r e is s t il l

s o m e fu r t h e r - a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g to p u t to g e th e r a n d s o
a r r a n g e m e n ts w i ll b e m a d e in d u e c o u r s e f o r y o u t o c o m e b a c k s o t h a t
y o u c a n d e a l w i th th e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t b u t b e i n t o u c h w i t h t h e le g a l

Page 146 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
team.
I f a t a ll p o s s i b l e d e p e n d i n g o n y o u r s i t u a ti o n I t h i n k I w o u l d
lik e - I w o u ld b e g l a d i f t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f t h a t a ffi d a v i t c a n h a p p e n
w i t h o u t d e la y. I d o n o t k n o w w h a t - w h a t th e c h a n c e s a r e t h a t b y e n d
o f th is - o f t h is c o m i n g w e e k i t c o u l d b e d o n e b u t i f n o t a t l e a s t i t
s h o u l d n o t d e l a y f o r m o r e th a n t w o w e e k s .
I w o u l d lik e t o - t h o s e a ffi d a v i ts to b e a v a i la b le .

Yo u r o n e ,

M r Mc B r i d e ’s o n e a n d M r S e s o k o ’s o n e a n d t h e le g a l te a m m u s t b e i n
t o u c h w i th t h e m b u t I k n o w y o u w o u ld s h a r e th e i n f o r m a t io n w i th t h e m
10

a s w e ll . A m I r ig h t Mr K h u b a ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

J a a n d t h e n w e w il l t a k e i t fr o m th e r e b u t

o th e r w i s e t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r - fo r c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e b u t fo r
now you are excused.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

W e a r e g o i n g to t a k e t h e l u n c h

a d j o u r n m e n t n o w. Th e ti m e i s 2 6 p a s s e d . W e w il l - p a s s o n e - w e w i ll
r e s u m e a t 2 0 - w e w i ll r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t t w o .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e n w e r e s u m e w e w il l t h e n s t a r t w it h th e

e v i d e n c e o f C o lo n e l N a i d o o .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e a d y Ms W e n tz e l ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s I a m .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e a r e n o w g o i n g t o h e a r th e e v i d e n c e o f C o l o n e l
Naidoo

to

whom

Colonel

R o e lo fs e

referred

in

h is

evidence.

In

a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e o r d e r t h a t I m a d e y e s t e r d a y h e is n o t p r e s e n t h e r e
in t h is h e a r i n g r o o m b u t h e w a s – h e w il l b e h e a r d h e r e a n d w h e n h e is
a s k e d q u e s t i o n s h e w il l h e a r t h e q u e s ti o n s a n d b e a b l e t o g iv e a n
a n s w e r. H e h a s a lr e a d y b e e n s w o r n s o t h e o a t h h a s b e e n a d m i n i s t e r e d
10

t o h i m b u t w h e n w e s t a r t I w il l j u s t g e t h i m t o c o n fir m t h a t t h e o a t h h a s
b e e n a d m i n i s t e r e d t o h i m , b u t b e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e Ms W e n tz e l is t h e r e
a n y th in g y o u w a n t t o s a y b e f o r e w e s t a r t?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o , n o t a t t h is s t a g e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u n o t w a n t t o e x p l a i n h o w h e w i ll d e a l w i t h th e
q u e s t io n o f i d e n ti t ie s o f s o m e o f t h e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s s o t h a t
e v e r y b o d y k n o w s s o th a t w h e n y o u g e t t o th a t s t a g e p e o p le d o n ’ t
w o n d e r w h a t is h a p p e n in g .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir I w a s g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h i t w it h

C o l o n e l N a i d o o s o t h a t h e c o u ld a ls o u n d e r s t a n d w h y w e ’r e d o i n g w h a t
20

w e ’r e d o in g b u t I c a n ju s t a s w e ll . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k j u s t s a y i t fo r t h e p u b li c a n d th e n y o u c a n

r e p e a t i t w i t h h i m l a t e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s i n C o l o n e l N a id o o ’s s t a te m e n t b e c a u s e

h e w a s i n v o l v e d in C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e a g o o d n u m b e r o f t h e p e o p l e
r e fe r r e d t o i n h i s s t a te m e n t e i th e r a r e o r w e r e o r m a y h a v e b e e n a g e n ts

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o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e , o r a l s o in f o r m e r s .

B e c a u s e o f t h i s a l e t te r w a s

a d d r e s s e d to C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a s k i n g t h e m t o s t a t e w h o a r e t h e a c t u a l
a g e n ts i n v o l v e d i n c o v e r t o p e r a ti o n s b e c a u s e i t w a s C o lo n e l N a id o o ’s
v ie w t h a t th e v a s t m a j o r it y o f p e o p l e w h o w e r e p la c e d in t o t h e a g e n t
p r o g r a m w e r e p l a c e d in t o t h a t p r o g r a m a s a r e s u l t o f n e p o tis m .
H o w e v e r G e n e r a l J a c o b s o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e h a s r e s p o n d e d
t o t h e r e q u e s t b u t i n v i e w o f t h e fa c t t h a t t h e – i t i s n o t a 1 0 0 % c l e a r
fr o m th e r e s p o n s e a s t o w h o in fa c t a r e a g e n t s o r w h o s e s a f e ty m a y b e
c o m p r o m is e d s h o u l d t h e ir i d e n t i ty b e r e v e a l e d . A s a m a t te r o f c a u ti o n
10

w e h a v e t a k e n a d e c is i o n t h a t w e w il l n e v e r th e le s s r e d a c t th e n a m e s o f
a l l t h e p e o p l e w h o c o u ld p o s s i b ly b e a n a g e n t a n d w e w il l o n ly r e fe r to
t h e m b y r e f e r e n c e t o a n u m b e r, w h ic h w i ll b e F N 1 , F N 2 , FN 3 e t c e t e r a .
D C J w e h a v e p r o v i d e d y o u w i t h t h o s e n a m e s in a s e a l e d
e n v e l o p e w h ic h – s o t h a t f o r o u r p u r p o s e s y o u w il l k n o w t h e n a m e s b u t
d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e t e s t i m o n y t h e s e p e o p le w i ll o n ly b e r e f e r r e d t o
b y n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O f c o u r s e y o u w il l m a k e f u r t h e r e ff o r ts t o o b t a i n

c la r i ty o n th e p e r s o n s w h o w e r e a g e n ts o r in f o r m e r s o r a r e s t il l a g e n t s
a n d i n fo r m e r s a m o n g t h e p e o p l e th a t h e i m p lic a t e s o r th e g r o u p in
20

r e s p e c t o f w h ic h y o u w e r e r e q u e s t e d , y o u p r e v io u s ly r e q u e s t e d c la r i ty
b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t c le a r e x a c t ly w h o f a l l s u n d e r w h a t, s o i t m a y w e ll
b e , o r w h a t i s c o n t e m p la t e d i s th a t o n c e c l a r i t y is o b t a i n e d t h e n c e r ta in
n a m e s w o u l d b e o r c o u ld b e r e v e a l e d i f t h o s e p e o p l e w e r e n o t o r a r e
n o t a g e n t s o r in f o r m e r s a n d i n w h ic h c a s e i f d u r in g C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s
evidence he has referred to them as FN1 or FN2 or FN3 it would be

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in d i c a t e d w h a t a c r o n y m o r n u m b e r w a s u s e d fo r t h a t p e r s o n in d u e
c o u r s e b u t to tr y a n d n o t c o m p r o m is e t h e i d e n t i ty o f p e o p l e w h o m i g h t
b e i n v o l v e d i n s e n s i tiv e i n t e ll ig e n c e w o r k w e w i ll u s e t h e n u m b e r s . W i ll
t h e y a ll s t a r t w i th F N ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : FN a n d t h e n a n u m b e r ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y a l r i g h t , n o t h a t ’s fi n e t h e n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a r e w e n o w c o n n e c t e d , C o l o n e l N a i d o o c a n y o u
hear me?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s I c a n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n . G o o d a f te r n o o n t o y o u .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
CHAIRPERSON:

G o o d a f t e r n o o n C h a ir.

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r a v a i li n g y o u r s e l f t o g i v e

e v i d e n c e in p r o c e e d i n g s o f t h i s C o m m i s s io n .
m u c h t h a t y o u h a v e a v a il e d y o u r s e l f .

W e a p p r e c i a t e it v e r y

Va r io u s m e a s u r e s h a v e b e e n

t a k e n i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th a n o r d e r t h a t I i s s u e d t o t r y a n d e n s u r e t h a t
y o u r s i t u a ti o n is p r o t e c t e d a s s o m e b o d y w h o is in t h e w i t n e s s
20

p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m , b u t b e fo r e w e s t a r t I ju s t w a n t y o u t o c o n fi r m t h a t
y o u a r e th e C o lo n e l N a id o o w h o w a s r e fe r r e d t o b y C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e in
h is e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

D o y o u c o n fi r m th a t y o u h a v e t a k e n

a n o a t h t o s p e a k t h e tr u th , th e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o t h i n g e l s e b u t th e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
tr u th w h e n y o u a r e g iv in g e v i d e n c e i n t h e C o m m i s s i o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
CHAIRPERSON:

I d o c o n f ir m C h a ir.

A n d th a t y o u h a v e in d i c a t e d t h a t y o u c o n s id e r t h e

oath binding on your conscience?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s I d id .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

M s W e n tz e l w il l t h e n a s k

y o u q u e s ti o n s to le a d y o u r e v i d e n c e . M s W e n tz e l ?

10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

( d u ly s w o r n , s ta t e s )

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Colonel Naidoo what are

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

y o u r fu ll n a m e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Dhanajaya Gangulu

Naidoo.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And is it correct that you were approached by

in v e s t i g a t o r s f r o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y i n to S t a t e C a p t u r e a n d
r e q u e s t e d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e in t h e s e h e a r i n g s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A n d t h a t t h e r e q u e s t r e s u lt e d fr o m c e r ta in

d is c l o s u r e s t h a t y o u m a d e t o C o l o n e l R o e lo fs e fr o m t h e H a w k s d u r i n g
c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n s u n d e r t a k e n b y h i m i n t o c e r t a i n fr a u d u l e n t
20

a c ti v i ti e s in v o lv in g th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s a c c o u n t a t C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d th a t i n t e s t if y i n g a t t h is

C o m m i s s i o n y o u m a y p o t e n ti a l ly i n c r i m i n a t e y o u r s e l f?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I do.

A n d t h i s e v id e n c e is g i v e n fr e e ly a n d

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v o l u n ta r i ly ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

C o l o n e l N a i d o o h a v e y o u b e e n o ff e r e d a

S e c t io n 2 0 4 i n d e m n i ty to te s t i fy i n a n y o f th e c r i mi n a l c a s e s t o b e
p r o s e c u t e d b y C o l o n e l R o e lo f s e a n d t h e S t a t e Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty i n
a n y o f th e c r i m i n a l m a t te r s t h a t y o u h a v e d e s c r i b e d i n y o u r a ff id a v i t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s I a m i n f a c t a

S e c t io n 2 0 4 w i t n e s s w i t h r e g a r d s to t h e c r i m i n a l c a s e s th a t a r e s t il l
pending.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d c a n y o u te l l t h e C h a ir w h e t h e r t h i s o ff e r

w a s m a d e t o y o u b e f o r e y o u i n fo r m e d C o lo n e l R o e lo fs e o f th e n a t u r e o f
t h e fr a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n p e r p e tr a t e d b y m e m b e r s a t C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e
o r a f t e r th is ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A f t e r th e i n f o r m a ti o n

t h a t I h a v e g iv e n t o C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
c ir c u m s ta n c e s ,

if you

C o u ld y o u j u s t b r i e fl y a t t h is s ta g e d e t a il t h e
could

ju s t

d e t a il

those

e v e n ts ,

how

th a t

happened?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :
20

C h a ir if I m a y w it h y o u r

p e r m is s io n a n d b e f o r e w e s t a r t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

T h e r e i s a n in c i d e n t t h a t

I w o u l d l ik e t o b r in g o r p l a c e o n r e c o r d b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n , i t
a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d o n W e d n e s d a y t h i s w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I g o t w o r d th a t o n e o f

m y c l o s e r e l a ti v e s t h e ir h o m e w a s b r o k e n i n to , th is m i g h t ju s t b e a
r a n d o m a c t o f c r i m i n a l it y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

O r a d ir e c t r e s u l t a s to

m a y b e t o s e n d m e a m e s s a g e t o i n ti m i d a te m e o r t o d e t e r m e f r o m
t e s ti fy in g a t t h i s C o m m i s s io n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :
10

S o I ju s t w a n t e d to p l a c e

that on record.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t h a p p e n e d t o .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

There was a break-in,

t h e r e w a s a h o m e i n v a s io n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e r e w a s a b r e a k - in ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ja.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s th a t d id y o u s a y i t w a s a t t h e h o u s e o f a r e la t iv e
of yours?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A c l o s e r e l a ti v e o f m in e .

CHAIRPERSON: A close
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O h b u t y o u s a y y o u – i t c o u ld b e j u s t n o r m a l

c r i m i n a li ty o r i t c o u l d b e c o n n e c t e d w i th a t t e m p ts to in t i m id a te y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a i r i t is d u e t o th e

c lo s e p r o x i m i ty o f my t e s t if y i n g a t t h is C o m m is s i o n , I c a n n o t r u le o u t
t h a t i t is m a y b e a c o n c e r te d e ffo r t t o i n ti m i d a t e o r d e te r m e f r o m

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t e s ti fy in g a t t h i s h e a r i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

Okay thank you very much.

Has the

m a t t e r b e e n r e p o r te d to t h e r e le v a n t a u t h o r it i e s a lr e a d y o r n o t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

C h a ir a t t h i s s t a g e I –

t h e in f o r m a ti o n th a t I h a v e is v e r y li m i t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

B u t w i th y o u r p e r m is s i o n

C h a ir if I m a y s u g g e s t th a t t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n s i n to t h is m a t t e r b e
e s c a l a t e d to th e H a w k s s o t h e y c a n s e e i f t h e r e i s in f a c t a l in k t o t h e
10

r o b b e r y i ts e l f a n d to m e t e s ti fy i n g a t t h is h e a r i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, Ms W e n tz e l j u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u g e t i n
t o u c h w i th th e H a w k s o r s o m e b o d y i n t h e le g a l t e a m , g e t i n t o u c h w i t h
t h e H a w k s s o t h a t t h e y c a n l o o k i n t o t h e m a tt e r u r g e n tl y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir I w il l d o t h a t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t w i ll b e d o n e C o l o n e l N a id o o .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, I

a p p r e c ia t e i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

L e t m e t a k e t h i s o p p o r t u n i ty t o

c h e c k th a t e v e r y b o d y i n t h e r o o m c a n h e a r e v e r y b o d y ?
20

O k a y, t h a n k

y o u , a lr i g h t , le t ’s c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Colonel Naidoo I am assuming that you have

a b u n d l e i n fr o n t o f y o u t h a t is m a r k e d E x h ib it K K 1 . 1 a n d K K 1 . 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a le v e r a r c h fi l e h e y ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u g o t a l e v e r a r c h fi l e C o lo n e l N a i d o o t h a t i s

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
m a r k e d o n t h e s p in e E x h i b i t K K 1 . 2 a n d Ex h i b i t K K 1 . 1 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C o lo n e l N a i d o o i f y o u h a v e a l o o k a t th e

n u m b e r s o n t h e t o p r i g h t h a n d s i d e y o u w ill s e e y o u r i n i t i a ls D G N a n d
t h e n i t s a y s in r e d 0 0 1 . T h o s e a r e t h e p a g e n u m b e r s , s o w h e n I r e f e r
y o u t o a p a g e i t w il l b e 1 , 2 , I a m n o t g o i n g t o s a y D G M - 0 0 1 , I w il l j u s t
s a y o n e , t w o , th r e e o r w h a te v e r, d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

A n d t h e d o c u m e n t th a t t h e b u n d le th a t is i n

fr o n t o f y o u i s t h is th e a ff i d a v i t th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n t o t h e C o m m i s s io n
w h ic h a p p e a r s f r o m p a g e s 1 t o 7 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A n d is i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u h a v e a ls o d e p o s e d

t o a n a ff id a v i t w h ic h is E x h i b i t K K 1 . 2 a n d t h a t i s a s u p p l e m e n t a r y
a ffi d a v i t to s u p p o r t y o u r a p p l ic a ti o n in c a m e r a a n d t h a t a p p e a r s a t
p a g e s 1 4 1 to 1 5 3 , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .

C h a ir i f I m i g h t p l a c e e x h i b i ts i n t o e v i d e n c e ,

marked KK1.1 and KK1.2.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h fi le c o n ta in in g – y o u s e e I t h i n k w h e r e
y o u h a v e a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i t th e r e w a s n o n e e d t o g iv e i t a
separate exhibit number because that causes confusion.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t c a u s e s c o n f u s io n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e a l l t h e l e v e r a r c h fi le s y o u j u s t h a v e o n e , s o

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
o n c e y o u s a y i n s i d e t h e s a m e le v e r a r c h fi le th e r e is e x h i b i t – t h e r e a r e
E x h i b i t K K 1 . 1 a n d E x h i b i t K K 1 . 2 it c a u s e s c o n fu s i o n e s p e c i a l ly b e c a u s e
t h e y c a n a ll g o i n t o o n e fi le , b u t w e n o w h a v e t o b e c a r e f u l i f y o u a r e
n o t g o i n g to – is t h e n u m b e r in g in t e r m s o f t h e r e d n u m b e r s , s e q u e n ti a l
fr o m p a g e 1 u p t o t h e e n d o r d o e s i t c h a n g e s o m e w h e r e a n d s ta r t f r o m
o n e a g a in ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

No it is sequential.

B e c a u s e i f th a t is s o w e c a n a c t u a l ly d e le t e a n y

r e fe r e n c e t o E x h i b i t K K 1 . 2 a n d s i m p ly s a y t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e a n d i ts
10

c o n te n ts a r e E x h i b i t K K 1 . 1 a n d i t s ta r t s fr o m p a g e 1 u p t o w h a t e v e r a n d
a s l o n g a s y o u b e a r in m in d w h e r e t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t is t h a t
s h o u l d b e e n o u g h , is t h a t fi n e ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a t i s p e r f e c tl y f in e , th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ye s , o k a y, a lr ig h t .

S o t h e le v e r a r c h fi l e c o n t a i n i n g

t h e s t a t e m e n t o f D h a n a ja y a G a n g u l u N a i d o o w il l b e m a r k e d a s E x h ib i t
KK1.1.

S o w h a t w il l r e m a i n is t h a t w e j u s t c h a n g e t h i s s o t h a t i s n o

r e fe r e n c e to K K 1 . 2 .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

O k a y, a lr i g h t , s o C o l o n e l N a i d o o i f w e t a l k a b o u t

E x h i b i t K K 1 . 1 i t w il l b e t h e l e v e r a r c h fi le i n f r o n t o f y o u a n d it s
c o n te n ts .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I f o ll o w C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir i f I m i g h t ju s t m e n ti o n o n e t h i n g t o y o u

b e f o r e w e s ta r t l e a d i n g th e e v i d e n c e , is a t p a g e 7 0 y o u w i ll n o t ic e t h a t

Page 156 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t h e p l a c e a n d i d e n t i ty o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n e r h a s b e e n r e d a c t e d , C h a ir
y o u w il l h a v e a c o m p l e t e v e r s i o n b u t t h is w a s d o n e in o r d e r t o c o n c e a l
t h e p l a c e w h e r e th e a ff i d a v i t w a s a t te s te d t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e is a n a ff id a v i t w h ic h h a s g o t e v e r y th i n g .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B e c a u s e th e o n e I h a v e i n fr o n t o f m e d o e s n ’t h a v e

t h a t a s w e ll .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I u n d e r s to o d it a n d I a p o l o g i s e C h a ir, I w i ll

m a k e s u r e th a t y o u w i ll h a v e t h e o n e t h a t h a s e v e r y th in g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s c o n ti n u e
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o lo n e l N a i d o o c o u l d y o u e x p la i n t h e

s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts fr o m w h e n y o u f ir s t c o n s u l t e d C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e a n d
w h e n y o u f ir s t r e q u e s t e d S e c t i o n 2 0 4 i m m u n i ty fr o m p r o s e c u ti o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir if I m a y w it h y o u r

p e r m is s io n th e r e is i n th is ti m e fr a m e o f t h e 1 8 t h o r r a t h e r S e p t e m b e r
w h e n I w a s in i ti a l ly i n te r v i e w e d b y C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e th a t w a s ju s t a
o n c e - o ff i n t e r v ie w a n d t h e n I g o t o t h e 1 8 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 11 t o t h e 2 1 s t
o f O c to b e r 2 0 11 , w i t h i n t h o s e d a y s t h e r e a r e p o c k e ts o f in c i d e n ts th a t
h a p p e n e d d u r in g th is ti m e fr a m e , i f I c a n j u s t . .. [ i n t e r v e n e s ]
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i f y o u c a n s t a r t w i th t h e m .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

T h e ti m e li n e f o r t h e

record.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a t is fi n e , y o u c a n s ta r t w i t h th e m .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :
o v e r v ie w.

Page 157 of 194

C h a i r th is is j u s t a n

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I w a s e m p l o y e d in t h e

S A P S a s a m e m b e r s t a ti o n e d a t C I, H e a d O ff ic e , a s a c l e r k . D u r i n g m y
s e r v ic e m y s e l f a n d v a r i o u s o t h e r m e m b e r s w e r e in v o lv e d in th e l o o t in g
o f t h e f u n d s f r o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e a c c o u n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U

NAIDOO:

This

we

did

on

in s t r u c t i o n o f m a in ly G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , t o g e t h e r w i th G e n e r a l M d l u l i,
C o l o n e l H e in B a r n a r d .
10

C h a ir in S e p t e m b e r I w a s a p p r o a c h e d v i a

G e n e r a l, C o m m i s s i o n e r H e n k e l , G e n e r a l H e n k e l s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I’ m s o r r y C o l o n e l N a i d o o j u s t r e m i n d m e a g a i n

y o u d i d g i v e t h e ti m e f r a m e f r o m w h e n t o w h e n w h a t p e r i o d a r e w e
t a lk in g a b o u t in 2 0 11 w h e n t h e s e i n c i d e n t s h a p p e n e d ?

I just want to

be reminded of that.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

W e ll i t s t a r ts o n t h e 1 8 t h

o f O c to b e r 2 0 11 , u p t o th e 2 1 s t o f O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir b e f o r e I g o t h e r e I

ju s t w a n t t o g o to S e p te m b e r 2 0 11 , t h is is w h e n I w a s fi r s t a p p r o a c h e d
20

b y th e H a w k s , m o r e e s p e c ia ll y C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e , v i a G e n e r a l H e n k e l,
h e w a n te d a n d i n te r v i e w e d m e t o e x p l a in c e r t a in a s p e c ts o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t d a t e C h a ir, i t w a s p r o b a b l y
a r o u n d th e la t t e r p a r t o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 .

T h i s i n t e r v ie w w a s

c o n d u c t e d a t C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e H e a d o ffi c e , m y s e l f , C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e
a n d G e n e r a l H e n k e l w a s p r e s e n t.

I t w a s n o t a v e r y lo n g i n te r v i e w

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C h a ir, i t w a s ju s t m o r e a d m i n is tr a ti v e t o e x p l a i n a g e n t f il e s e tc e te r a ,
p r o b a b ly a n h o u r o r s o a n d o u r m e e t i n g w a s d o n e .
S u b s e q u e n t t o th a t C h a ir in t h e 1 8 t h . . . [i n d i s t in c t ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d o y o u w a n t t o , is th e r e a n y t h i n g y o u w a n t t o te ll
m e a b o u t t h e c o n t e n t o f th e d is c u s s i o n s o n t h a t h o u r lo n g i n te r v i e w
more or less?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
le s s t o e x p l a i n th e a g e n t f il e s .

C h a ir t h a t w a s m o r e o r

At that stage I was

handling seven

a g e n ts .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA

GANGULU

NAIDOO:

It was

b a s ic a lly

a d m i n is tr a t iv e – I h a d to e x p l a in h o w I g o t t o h a n d li n g t h e s e a g e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , h o w y o u o p e r a te ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

N o t r e a ll y h o w t h e

o p e r a ti o n s o f i t C h a ir, i t w a s j u s t m o r e a d m in is tr a tiv e b e c a u s e a t th a t
s t a g e I h a d to e x p l a i n t h e ir s a l a r ie s , t h e ir m e d i c a l a i d p a y m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S o t h a t w a s d o n e i n th a t

h o u r lo n g i n te r v i e w.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, y e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

A n d s u b s e q u e n t ly I w a s

a s k e d a g a in to m e e t w i t h C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e , a g a in v i a G e n e r a l H e n k e l ,
t h is w a s o n t h e 1 8 t h a n d 1 9 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 159 of 194

C h a ir o n t h e 1 8 t h o f

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
O c t o b e r I m e t w i th C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e a n d L t C o l o n e l P i e t Vil jo e n o f th e
H a w k s a t t h e ir o ffic e s in P r e t o r ia a t S ilv e r t o n . I t w a s r e g a r d i n g C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e a n d t h e a ll e g e d l o o t i n g o f t h e a c c o u n t C h a ir.
O n t h e f ir s t d a t e C h a ir I w a s q u i t e r e l u c t a n t o r h e s i ta n t t o –
n o t a s t o n o t t o c o o p e r a t e w it h t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n b u t I h a d q u i t e a l o t o f
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I n e e d e d t o s p e a k a b o u t , a n d I d i d n o t k n o w i f I c o u ld
tr u s t th e m a t t h a t s ta g e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A t th a t s ta g e h a d t h e y o ff ic ia lly a s k e d y o u i f y o u

c o u l d te ll t h e m c e r t a i n in f o r m a t io n o r n o t y e t , t h e y w e r e j u s t h a v i n g
10

d is c u s s io n s w i t h y o u w it h o u t n e c e s s a r i l y a s k in g y o u to g iv e t h e m
s e n s i t iv e i n fo r m a ti o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

C h a ir i f I c a n r e m e m b e r

c o r r e c t ly o n th e 1 8 t h t h e r e w e r e c e r ta i n q u e s ti o n s p u t to m e b y C o l o n e l
R o e lo fs e a n d L t C o l P ie t Vi l jo e n w h ic h I a n s w e r e d h o n e s tly, I d i d n o t li e
t o th e m a b o u t a n y t h i n g , l ik e I s a i d I s o m u c h i n f o r m a ti o n th a t I d i d n o t
k n o w i f I c o u l d tr u s t t h e m , t h a t w a s t h e f ir s t d a y o f t h e 1 8 t h .
H o w e v e r o n t h e 2 0 t h , s o r r y t h e n e x t d a y w h ic h is th e 1 9 t h
C h a ir, o u t o f m y o w n a c c o r d I d e c i d e d t o t a k e t h e m i n to m y c o n f id e n c e
a n d e x p l a i n a l l o f t h e a ll e g a t i o n s , o r m a d e n u m e r o u s a ll e g a t io n s t o
20

t h e m r e g a r d i n g t h e l o o t in g o f t h e s e c r e t s e r v ic e a c c o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e c r e t s e r v ic e a c c o u n t , t h e l o o ti n g o f th e s e c r e t
s e r v ic e a c c o u n t .
COLONEL

D H A N A J AYA

GANGULU

NAIDOO:

At

large

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e C h a ir b u t it w a s m o r e t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t b e c a u s e
t h is is s it u a te d w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o th is w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n th e 1 9 t h o f O c to b e r
2 0 11 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. S o t h a t w a s C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e a n d H e n k e l ,
did you say Colonel Henkel?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It w a s n o C h a i r i t w a s

C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e a n d C o l o n e l P ie t Vi lj o e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P ie t Vi lj o e n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

Th is

h a d d is c l o s e d o n

t h e 1 9 t h o f O c t o b e r t o th e v a r io u s a l l e g a ti o n s o f t h e l o o t in g o f t h e
a c c o u n t , i n c l u d in g m y s e l f , b y m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e , i n c lu d i n g
myself.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

On the same day 19th

O c t o b e r 2 0 11 , s o r r y C h a ir I a m j u s t tr y in g t o g e t my d a t e s i n o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r d a t e s , o k a y, y e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

G o i n g b a c k to th e 1 8 t h ,

a ft e r m y i n te r v i e w w i t h – o n t h e fi r s t d a y, I w e n t b a c k t o m y o ff ic e a n d
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a n t e d to k n o w w h a t t h e H a w k s w e r e q u e s ti o n i n g m e
a b o u t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e 1 8 t h o f O c t o b e r, t h a t i n t e r v i e w o n t h e 1 8 t h o f

O c t o b e r is t h a t th e o n e t h a t y o u s a i d w a s a b o u t a n h o u r lo n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Page 161 of 194

N o , th a t w a s in

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
S e p te m b e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t w a s i n S e p te m b e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

September of the same

y e a r, 2 0 11 .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t th e 1 8 t h O c to b e r o n e w a s t h e s e c o n d i n t e r v i e w

with them.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h C o lo n e l R o e lo f s e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t.

CHAIRPERSON: And whoever he was with.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , y e s .

Ye s C h a ir.

S o y o u s a y a f te r th e in t e r v i e w o f

t h e 1 8 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 11 G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s p o k e t o y o u .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

D u r i n g t h e 1 8 t h , I w il l

c a l l i t t h e f ir s t d a y, a l t h o u g h i t is n o t t h e f ir s t d a y b u t b e c a u s e
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

. .. o f th e ti m e fr a m e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

If I can remember

c o r r e c t ly t h e r e w a s a q u e s ti o n p u t t o m e b y th e i n v e s ti g a ti n g te a m i f
a n y m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e h a d t h e ir p r e m is e s r e n te d b y C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e a n d I a n s w e r e d h o n e s tl y I e x p l a in e d t o C o l o n e l R o e lo fs e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d G e n e r a l L a ll a t h e i r p r e m is e s w e r e b e in g r e n t e d
b y C I w h e n – I a m g o in g b a c k t o t h e a ft e r n o o n w h e n I w e n t b a c k to m y
o ffic e a n d I e x p la in e d to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h a t I d i d c o n c e d e o r c o n fir m
t h a t I h a v e – c o n fir m e d w i th t h e H a w k s t h a t th is w a s i n d e e d t h e c a s e ,
in te r ms o f t h e r e n t a l o f t h e p r e m is e s f o r th e t w o G e n e r a ls , h e w a s
q u i te f u r i o u s w i t h m e a n d a s k e d m e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y m a y I j u s t in t e r r u p t y o u .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o g e t c e r t a in th in g s s tr a i g h t. Th e f ir s t i n te r v i e w
10

w i t h th e H a w k s – y o u r fir s t i n te r v i e w w i t h t h e H a w k s w a s s o m e t i m e in
S e p te m b e r 2 0 11 . T h a t is t h e in t e r v i e w w h i c h y o u s a y r e la t e d to
a d m i n is tr a t iv e i s s u e s , is th a t r i g h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir

r e g a r d in g a g e n ts th a t I w a s h a n d l in g a t t h e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . A n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d i n t e r v i e w is t h e o n e th a t

h a p p e n e d o n th e 1 8 O c t o b e r 2 0 11 , i s t h a t r ig h t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t w a s a l m o s t a d a y lo n g – a l m o s t e n tir e d a y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

N o w is t h a t t h e o n e w h e r e y o u s a y y o u h a d

d e c i d e d to te ll th e m m a n y o f th e th in g s t h a t y o u k n e w w h ic h w e r e –
w h ic h r e l a te d to c o r r u p ti o n a n d l o o t in g o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Or is that on the 19t h?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O n th e 1 8 t h – t h i s w a s o n
t h e 1 8 t h O c t o b e r.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : W h e r e c e r ta in q u e s t io n s
were put to me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
COLONEL

D H A N A J AYA

GANGULU

NAIDOO:

Regarding

c e r t a in

a s p e c ts o f c r i m in a l i ty w i th i n C I w h i c h I i n d e e d a n s w e r e d h o n e s tl y a n d
c o r r e c t ly o r I w o u l d s a y h o n e s tly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y b u t – b u t w it h r e g a r d t o th e 1 8 t h – s o w i t h
r e g a r d t o t h e 1 8 t h y o u w e r e s i m p ly a n s w e r i n g q u e s t i o n s t h a t …
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

That were put to me

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e y w e r e p u t ti n g t o y o u .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t is t h e – th a t is t h e d a y w h e r e in r e s p e c t o f
w h ic h y o u s a y y o u w e r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r y o u c o u ld tr u s t th e m o r n o t a t
that stage?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: So you knew you had knowledge of a lot of things that
w e r e h a p p e n i n g b u t y o u w e r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r y o u c o u l d tr u s t t h e m .
20

B u t i n s o f a r a s t h e q u e s t i o n s t h a t th e y p u t t o y o u y o u s a y y o u a n s w e r e d
t h o s e q u e s t i o n s h o n e s t ly ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y th a t i n te r v i e w t o o k t h e w h o le d a y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: On the 18t h?

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C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n a f te r t h e H a w k s w e r e g o n e G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
c a l l e d y o u a n d a s k e d y o u a b o u t t h e ir v is it t o y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

N o C h a ir.

When my

in t e r v ie w c o n c l u d e d f o r t h e d a y I a m r e fe r r in g to t h e 1 8 t h .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

Th e r e w a s q u i t e a f e w

m is s e d c a l ls o n m y p h o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : A n d I a m n o t s u r e w h o i t
w a s b u t th e r e w a s a fe w b u t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s l o o k i n g f o r m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Or rather wanted to

speak to me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : To s e e h o w th e in t e r v i e w
went with the Hawks.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h h e k n e w t h a t y o u w e r e g o in g to b e h a v i n g a n

in t e r v ie w w i t h t h e H a w k s ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir. Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I conceded that I

a d m i t t e d t h a t t h e t w o g e n e r a l s w h o m I r e f e r to a s G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d
G e n e r a l L a l a th a t th e i r p r e m is e s w e r e b e i n g r e n t e d b y C I a n d lik e I
e x p l a i n e d h e w a s – w a s n o t h a p p y. H e w a s q u i t e – h e w a s q u it e u p s e t .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

General Lazarus.

Ye s

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t t o j u s t y o u k n o w r e m i n d u s w h a t p o s i ti o n
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h e ld a t C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e a t t h e t i m e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

w a s t h e H e a d o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w h o w a s t h e h e a d o f th e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e
at the time?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

At that stage I am not

sure – I am not sure because General Mdluli was suspended by then.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f h e w a s s u s p e n d e d i t m e a n s h e w a s – h e w a s
H e a d o f t h e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n s o m e b o d y a c t in g in h is –
in t h e p o s i t io n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

Th a t w o u l d b e – th a t

w o u ld b e c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

So he – so General Mdluli was the Head of Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e b u t h e w a s o n s u s p e n s i o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h o w a s a c ti n g i n h is p o s i t io n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir I a m
not sure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w o u l d h e h a v e b e e n li k e

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n u m b e r 2 i n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e o r n o t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I w o u l d n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f th e h i e r a r c h y i n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I would not say number

2.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : B u t h e w o u ld b e q u it e –
he was…
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Q u i t e c l o s e to – h is p o s i ti o n w a s it li k e o n e g r a d e

b e l o w t h a t o f G e n e r a l M d lu li o r i s t h a t s o m e th in g y o u d o n o t k n o w ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O : Yo u c o u ld s a y t h a t C h a ir
h e w a s a r a n k b e lo w G e n e r a l M d l u l i h e w a s th e C F O o f t h e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

So yes you correct in

s a y in g t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a l r i g h t . O k a y i f y o u m a y t h e n c o n ti n u e w i t h
y o u r – t o t e l l u s a b o u t t h e d is c u s s i o n th a t y o u w e r e h a v i n g w i th G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s . Yo u s a id h e w a s u p s e t w h e n …
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

He was very upset with

me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : T h a t I c o n c e d e d i n g i v i n g
t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n t o th e H a w k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm

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C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I e x p l a i n e d t o h i m C h a ir
t h a t it w a s a d ir e c t q u e s t i o n t h a t w a s p u t t o m e a n d I c o u l d n o t li e to
t h e m . I t w a s a n o ff ic ia l i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d I c o u l d n o t l ie t o t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : N e v e r t h e l e s s th a t w a s –
t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n e n d e d t h e r e . I c a n n o t r e a ll y r e m e m b e r e x a c tly w h a t
tr a n s p ir e d t h e r e a f t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d i d h e s h o w h is – I t h i n k y o u s a i d e a r li e r h e w a s
f u r i o u s a n d th e n l a t e r y o u s a i d h e w a s u p s e t. H o w d i d h e s h o w i t?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i t w a s n o t – i t w a s
n o t a n y p h y s ic a l a t tr i b u te s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : B u t i n h o w h e s a i d w h a t
h e s a id t o m e th a t m a d e m e b e li e v e th a t h e w a s u p s e t w i t h m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I n t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h

h e s a id i t t o m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h h e s p o k e t o y o u a f t e r y o u

t o l d h i m w h a t y o u h a d t o l d th e H a w k s ?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I a m g o i n g b a c k o r
r a th e r n o t b a c k I a m g o i n g t o t h e 1 9 t h w h ic h i s t h e n e x t d a y – 1 9 t h
O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir o n t h is d a y I m a d e
a d e c is i o n t h a t o n m y o w n a c c o r d I a m g o i n g t o r e v e a l to t h e H a w k s a ll
o f t h e a ll e g a t io n s o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Al l o f t h e t h in g s y o u k n e w r e la t in g t o c o r r u p t io n a n d
c r i m e a n d th e l o o ti n g o f th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir th e
a b u s e o f th e a c c o u n t b y v a r i o u s m e m b e r s a s m o s t o f w h i c h w e r e s e n i o r
m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e i n c lu d i n g m y s e l f C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y. O k a y. D i d y o u h a v e a n a r r a n g e m e n t t o m e e t

w i t h C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e o n th e 1 9 t h o r t h e r e w a s n o a r r a n g e m e n t a s s u c h
y o u – b u t o n c e y o u m a d e t h i s d e c is io n y o u w e r e g o i n g t o c o n t a c t h i m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h e r e w a s a n

arrangement that I would meet them over those two days which was the
1 8 t h . L i k e I s a i d I c o n c lu d e d o n t h e 1 8 t h a n d th e r e w a s r e g i m e n t t h a t I
meet the next day as well.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Ye s a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 1 0 t h t h e n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

Chair on the 19th – on

t h e 1 9 t h O c t o b e r a g a i n I h a d t o g iv e G e n e r a l L a z a r u s f e e d b a c k o n h o w
m y in t e r v ie w w e n t w i t h th e H a w k s . L ik e I s a i d C h a ir a t t h i s s t a g e I h a d
20

e x p l a i n e d o r c o n f id e d i n t h e m . G o i n g b a c k t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s I g a v e
h i m a v e r y w a te r e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

I gave him a watered

d o w n v e r s io n o f w h a t r e a l ly tr a n s p ir e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y I a m s o r r y I a m in t e r r u p t in g y o u a g a i n C o l o n e l

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N a i d o o . L e t u s d e a l f ir s t w it h y o u r in t e r v ie w w i t h t h e H a w k s o n t h e 1 9 t h
O c t o b e r b e f o r e w e g o t o y o u r m e e ti n g o r d is c u s s i o n w i t h G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s a f t e r t h e i n te r v i e w.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t h a p p e n e d a t th e i n te r v i e w – a t y o u r i n t e r v i e w

w i t h t h e H a w k s o n t h e 1 9 t h O c to b e r ? D id y o u t e ll th e m e v e r y t h in g th a t
you knew?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A t
t h a t s t a g e w h a t I c o u ld – b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e s o m a n y i n c id e n ts o f
10

c o r r u p ti o n C h a ir.

O n t h e 1 9 t h w h a t I c o u ld r e m e m b e r I c o n c e d e d a n d

g iv e n th e m t h a t in f o r m a t io n . B u t a ll o f t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I n fo r m a ti o n th a t I h a v e

g iv e n to t h e m o n th e 1 9 t h C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : A n d a li t t le b i t o f th e 1 8 t h
is c o n t a i n e d i n a n a ff id a v i t t h a t I d e p o s e d t o C o l o n e l – L i e u t e n a n t
C o l o n e l P i e t Vil jo e n o n th e 2 4 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y n o th a t is f in e .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

M o s t o f th a t in f o r m a ti o n

t h a t c a m e o u t o f t h e i n te r v i e w o v e r t h e s e t w o d a y s w a s c o n ta i n e d i n
t h a t i n i t ia l in v e s t i g a t io n . I f I c a n c a l l i t th e “b l a n k e t i n v e s ti g a ti o n ” s o r r y
C h a ir p a r d o n m e . I f I c a n c a ll it t h e “ B la n k e t A ff i d a v i t ” t h a t I d e p o s e d
to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h i n k M s W e n t z e l th e n c a n ta k e it fr o m t h e r e .

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C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . B y t h e s t a g e t h a t y o u d e p o s e to
t h is “ B l a n k e t A ff i d a v i t ” o n t h e 2 5 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 11 h a d y o u b e e n p l a c e d
in t o t h e w i tn e s s p r o t e c ti o n p r o g r a m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

Pardon me.

Can I get

the date again?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u s a i d y o u d e p o s e d to a n a ff i d a v i t o n t h e

2 5 t h O c to b e r 2 0 11 w h ic h y o u c a ll y o u r “ B l a n k e t A ff id a v i t ” w h ic h
c o n fir m e d w h a t y o u h a d to ld C o lo n e l R o e l o fs e o n th e 1 8 t h a n d t h e 1 9 t h
10

O c t o b e r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t I w a s
a lr e a d y i n t h e w i tn e s s p r o t e c ti o n p r o g r a m b y th e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y M s W e n tz e l . L e t u s fi n is h f ir s t w h a t h e to u c h e d
o n e a r li e r o n a n d I s t o p p e d h i m .

H e s a i d a f t e r h i s i n t e r v ie w w i t h t h e

H a w k s o n th e 1 9 t h h e h a d a d is c u s s i o n w i t h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I s t o p p e d h i m b e fo r e h e c o u ld te ll u s e x a c t ly w h a t
tr a n s p ir e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h a t d is c u s s io n . L e t u s h e a r a b o u t th a t p a r t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . C o l o n e l N a id o o d i d y o u h e a r t h e C h a ir ?
C o u ld y o u e x p la in w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 1 9 t h O c to b e r 2 0 11 a ft e r y o u r
in t e r v ie w w i t h t h e H a w k s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s y e s .

As per the

p r e v i o u s d a y I h a d to a g a i n g i v e G e n e r a l L a z a r u s f e e d b a c k a s t o h o w

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t h e i n te r v i e w w e n t w i t h t h e H a w k s . L ik e I e x p l a in e d I g a v e h i m a t t h i s
s t a g e o n t h e 1 9 t h I h a d g iv e n t h e m a l l t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I k n e w a t
that stage.

I g a v e G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a w a te r e d d o w n v e r s i o n o f w h a t

r e a l ly tr a n s p ir e d j u s t t o g e t h i m o ff my b a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e – w a s t h e r e a n a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f
y o u n a m e ly y o u r s e lf a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h a t a f te r th e i n t e r v ie w – y o u r
in t e r v ie w w i t h th e H a w k s o n t h e 1 9 t h y o u s h o u l d c o m e b a c k to h i m a n d
t e ll h i m w h a t y o u d i s c u s s e d w i th t h e m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir n o t r e a ll y b u t I f e ll
10

w i t h i n th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t s o h e w a s i n d ir e c tl y m y b o s s .

I

a c t u a ll y r e p o r te d to C o l o n e l B a r n a r d w h o r e p o r t e d t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o y o u – y o u w e n t – y o u w e n t t o te ll h i m o n y o u r
own not because he had asked you to come and tell him?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r th e

d e t a i ls C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

But I do remember

having this conversation with him on the 19th.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

And you say you gave him what you call a

w a t e r e d v e r s io n – a w a t e r e d d o w n v e r s i o n o f w h a t y o u h a d d is c l o s e d t o
t h e H a w k s , is t h a t r ig h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

L ik e I

m e n ti o n e d o n t h e 1 9 t h I d e c i d e d o n m y o w n a c c o r d t o g i v e t h e H a w k s a l l
t h e in f o r m a t io n th a t I k n e w a t t h a t s t a g e w h ic h w a s q u i t e s u b s ta n ti a l
m a n y in c i d e n ts t h a t I r e f e r r e d to .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o I d i d n o t g i v e h i m a ll
t h e d e t a ils – I a m r e f e r r i n g t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s m y c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h
h i m t h a t I h a d w it h h i m o n t h e a f te r n o o n o f t h e 1 9 t h I g a v e h i m a
w a t e r e d d o w n v e r s i o n o f w h a t r e a ll y tr a n s p i r e d w i t h my in t e r v i e w w i t h
the Hawks.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s y o u r m o t iv a ti o n f o r g iv i n g h i m a w a t e r e d

d o w n v e r s io n o f w h a t y o u h a d d is c l o s e d t o t h e H a w k s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h e p r e v io u s d a y I
10

h a d o n ly t o l d h i m a b o u t o n e i n c i d e n t r e g a r d i n g t h e s a fe p r e m i s e s a n d
h e w a s q u i te u p s e t w i t h m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d o n th e 1 9 t h I g a v e

t h e m a w h o l e l o t o f i n f o r m a t io n a n d I d o n o t th i n k h e w o u l d h a v e ta k e n
k in d ly to t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And he was one of the people who were

i m p l ic a t e d i n w h a t y o u h a d d i s c l o s e d t o th e H a w k s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

O k a y.

S o h o w d i d t h a t m e e t in g e n d – t h a t

d is c u s s io n b e t w e e n th e tw o o f y o u ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir i t i s s o m e t i m e

ago.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It ju s t a c c e p t e d …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I t is a l m o s t s e v e n y e a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c c e p te d w h a t y o u s a id a n d th a t i s – i t e n d e d t h e r e ?

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I w o u ld s a y s o C h a ir I

c a n n o t r e m e m b e r th e d e t a i ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . Ms W e n tz e l y o u c a n p r o c e e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w y o u s a i d th a t b e f o r e y o u g a v e th is

“ B l a n k e t S t a t e m e n t / A ff i d a v i t ” t o t h e H a w k s o n t h e 2 5 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Yo u w e r e p la c e d i n t h e w i tn e s s p r o t e c t io n

p r o g r a m a n d I t h i n k p e r h a p s w e s h o u ld d e a l w i t h t h a t n o w a t t h is s ta g e .
I f y o u c o u ld h a v e r e g a r d t o p a g e 6 3 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t th a t y o u h a v e
g iv e n to t h e c o m m i s s i o n c o u ld y o u p l e a s e t e ll t h e C h a ir b e i n g c a r e f u l
n o t to r e f e r t o n a m e s a n d h a v e r e g a r d t o th e l is t o f n a m e s t h a t h a v e
b e e n p r o v i d e d to y o u w i t h t h i s a b b r e v i a t io n w h ic h w il l b e F M 1 , 2 o r
e tc e t e r a c o u l d y o u p le a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h
y o u e n d e d u p b e i n g p l a c e d i n th e w i t n e s s p r o t e c t io n p r o g r a m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : S u r e . C h a ir i f I c a n j u s t
g o b a c k t o t h e o v e r v i e w a n d I w i ll g e t t o 6 3 i n a m o m e n t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : L ik e I s a i d o n t h e 1 9 t h I
h a d th is d is c u s s i o n w it h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .

I d r o p p e d h i m o ff a t h is

r e s id e n c e a n d I w e n t t o m y h o m e . T h e n e x t d a y I p ic k e d h i m u p a s I
w o u ld n o r m a l ly d o b e c a u s e h e tr a v e l le d w i t h m e to w o r k – to h is o ffic e .
I d r o p p e d h i m o ff a t h is o ff ic e a n d I e x p l a i n e d t o h i m t h a t I w a s q u i t e
tir e d m e n t a lly h a v i n g b e e n in t e r v i e w e d b y th e H a w k s f o r t h e p r e v io u s

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
t w o d a y s a n d I i n f o r m e d h i m t h a t I w o u l d w a n t – lik e t o g o h o m e t o r e s t .
H e a g r e e d C h a ir. A f t e r I d r o p p e d h i m o ff a t h is o ffic e I d e c i d e d – I a m
t a lk in g a b o u t t h e 2 0 t h C h a ir t h e T h u r s d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I d e c i d e d t o c o n f id e i n

o n e o f m y c o l l e a g u e s n a m e ly C o lo n e l B a r n a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d I c o n f id e d i n h i m

C h a ir a n d I t o ld h i m a b o u t t h e i n t e r v i e w t h a t I h a d w it h th e H a w k s . A n d
10

a ls o i n fo r m e d h i m th a t I a ls o in f o r m e d t h e H a w k s t h a t I h a d a ls o
c o n c e d e d th a t I p u t i n c l a i m s to t h e v a l u e o f R 1 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 – fa ls e
c la i m s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t r e p e a t t h a t p le a s e ?

Yo u to ld h i m t h a t y o u h a d

t o l d th e H a w k s t h a t y o u h a d p u t i n f a ls e c l a i m s t o th e v a lu e o f
R 1 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . C o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir d u r i n g t h is – d u r in g
t h is c o n f e s s io n t h a t I m a d e to C o l o n e l B a r n a r d a n o th e r m e m b e r o f
20

C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e th a t w a s p r e s e n t t h e r e I a m n o t s u r e i f I c a n m e n t io n
h is n a m e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o i t w o u l d b e b e t t e r if y o u c a n j u s t r e f e r to
t h e lis t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : O h p a r d o n m e s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t h a v e a l o o k a t t h e li s t t h a t y o u h a v e .

Page 175 of 194

I f i t is

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
s o m e b o d y w h o is s u p p o s e d to b e r e f e r r e d t o b y w a y F M a n d a n u m b e r
ju s t m e n ti o n t h e n u m b e r.

T h e F M a n d t h e n u m b e r.

But I take it Ms

W e n tz e l th a t a n y b o d y t h a t is n o t m e n t io n e d h e r e t h a t is n o t in th e l is t
a n d th a t h e d o e s n o t k n o w t o b e a n a g e n t o r i n f o r m e r h e c o u l d m e n t i o n
b u t t h o s e a r e p e o p l e i n t h e s ta t e m e n t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s C o l o n e l N a i d o o d o y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

There was another

Colonel who …
CHAIRPERSON: So if the person that you were wondering whether you
c a n m e n ti o n y o u w o u l d h a v e t o l o o k i f y o u f in d t h e n y o u m e n ti o n F M
a n d t h e n u m b e r. B u t i f i t l o o k s li k e i t t a k e s y o u s o m e ti m e w e c a n s e e
w h a t t o d o b u t it i s n o t a lis t th a t is t e r r i b l y l o n g . I t is o n e p a g e I th i n k .
I t is o n e p a g e .

O k a y d o y o u w a n t t o c h e c k th e r e o r is t h e n a m e n o t

there?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

I do have the number

C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I w o u l d r e f e r t o th is

Colonel as FM40.
CHAIRPERSON: FM40?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 40?

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

He was also present

w h e n I c o n fi d e d i n C o l o n e l B a r n a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

W i th m y a d m i s s i o n s t o

the Hawks.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a t t h a t s ta g e I w a s
10

– I w a s – I – o r r a t h e r I h a d th e i m p r e s s io n th a t th e y w e r e g e n u in e ly
c o n c e r n e d a b o u t m y w e ll b e i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w th e tw o o f t h e m ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

I n i ti a lly t h e y w e r e q u i te

s h o c k e d t h o u g h w i t h m y a d m i s s i o n s r e g a r d in g th e R 1 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w d o y o u t h i n k w h a t w a s s h o c k i n g th e m w a s th a t

y o u h a d d i s c l o s e d th a t t o th e H a w k s o r w h a t w a s s h o c k in g t h e m w a s
that you had put in claims for that kind of amount?
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

It w a s m o r e t h e a m o u n t

t h a t I p u t i n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t w a s m o r e t h e a m o u n t.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

And the – or rather I

w o u ld t h e a d m is s io n s C h a ir n o t s o m u c h th e a m o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e a d m is s i o n s o k a y.

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C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h e a d m is s i o n s th a t I

h a d m a d e t o th e H a w k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R e g a r d i n g t h e a m o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d I g e n u i n e ly b e l ie v e d
C h a ir t h a t t h e y w e r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t m y w e ll b e i n g a n d t h e y s a id t h a t I
m u s t t a k e c a r e o f my s e l f I m u s t g o h o m e a n d h a v e a r e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is s t ill o n t h e 1 9 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 11 ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir th is is o n th e 2 0 t h
O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o n t h e 2 0 t h O c t o b e r y e s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir w h i c h I d i d . I w a s
q u i te t ir e d .

I w a s e x h a u s t e d m e n t a l ly b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r I w a s

in t e r v ie w e d q u i t e e x t e n s iv e ly t h e p r e v io u s t w o d a y s s o I w e n t h o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d I t h i n k I h a d a s l e e p
for a few hours.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o t h e in t e r v i e w o f t h e 2 0 t h a ls o w a s lik e a d a y l o n g

in t e r v ie w ? To o k m o r e o r l e s s t h e w h o le d a y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

P a r d o n m e C h a ir I d id

n o t h e a r t h a t p a r t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e i n te r v i e w o f t h e 2 0 t h O c to b e r – o h I a m s o r r y – j a
t h e in t e r v ie w o f t h e 1 9 t h O c to b e r d i d i t l a s t th e w h o le d a y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a i r i t d id .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r e o r le s s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

M o r e o r l e s s b e c a u s e it

w a s q u i t e e x t e n s iv e in t e r m s o f w h a t I d i s c l o s e d t o C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e
a n d C o l o n e l Vi lj o e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e .

S o th e tw o o f t h e m w e r e

c o n c e r n e d a n d a s k e d – a n d s u g g e s t e d t h a t y o u g o a n d r e s t?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is is o n t h e 2 0 t h n o w ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir I a m s t il l r e f e r r in g
t o th e 2 0 t h . Th e e v e n i n g o f t h e 2 0 t h p r o b a b ly b e tw e e n 6 o r 9 I c a n n o t
b e s u r e o r m o r e o r le s s d u r in g t h a t ti m e m y w i f e a n d I d e c id e d t o g o f o r
a w a l k b e c a u s e li k e I s a i d I w a s q u i t e s tr e s s e d o u t a n d a l s o m e n t a l ly
tir e d fr o m t h e p r e v i o u s t w o d a y s . M y e l d e s t s o n w a s a t h o m e . H e w a s
a s l e e p C h a ir. I t w a s m y w if e a n d I a n d m y y o u n g e s t s o n h e w a s o n h is
b ic y c le w e w e n t – d e c id e d t o g o f o r a w a lk a r o u n d t h e b l o c k a r o u n d m y
house.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is w a s a r o u n d w h a t ti m e o f t h e d a y ?

20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h i s w a s i n t h e e v e n i n g
C h a ir o f t h e 2 0 t h p r o b a b l y b e tw e e n s ix a n d s e v e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :
b l o c k C h a ir.

We went around the

Th e r e i s a p a r k o p p o s i t e m y h o u s e .

W e w a lk e d a r o u n d

t h e p a r k a n d a s I w a s g e t t in g c l o s e r to m y h o u s e I s a w tw o o f my

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
c o l l e a g u e s C o lo n e l F M 0 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o lo n e l F M 0 8 y e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : S o r r y C h a ir I – i t is ju s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e lo o k i n g f o r th e o t h e r o n e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I a m j u s t l o o k in g f o r

the…
C H A I R P E R S O N : N u m b e r – j a n o t h a t is f in e ju s t h a v e a l o o k . I t w a s
FM08 Chair
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d F M 0 9 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh FM08 and FM09?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r
e x a c tl y w h ic h o n e o f t h e m b u t o n e o f t h e m – I r e f e r to b o t h o f th e m i n
t h is i n c id e n t b u t o n e o f t h e m a n d l ik e I s a id I d o n o t k n o w w h i c h o n e I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I s a w th e m j u m p in g o v e r

20

t h e g a t e o f m y h o u s e th e d r i v e w a y g a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s a w t h e m f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e w e r e t h e y i n a
c a r o r w e r e th e y w a l k i n g ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir t h e r e w a s a c a r

t h a t w a s p a r k e d in fr o n t o f m y d r iv e w a y g a t e w h ic h I r e c o g n is e d a s o n e
o f t h e v e h ic l e s t h a t I p r e v i o u s l y d r o v e a t C I a s a c o v e r t v e h ic l e .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I t w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly

h a n d e d t o o n e o f my c o ll e a g u e s F M 0 8 a t t h a t s t a g e w a s d r iv i n g th a t
p a r t ic u l a r v e h ic le .

S o I r e c o g n i s e d i t t o b e t h e v e h ic l e t h a t h e w a s

driving.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o w h e n y o u s a w th e c a r a n d y o u s a w o n e o f

t h e m I t h i n k y o u s a id c li m b i n g o v e r th e fe n c e . Wa s i t w h e n y o u , y o u r
w i f e a n d y o u r s o n w e r e c o m i n g b a c k h o m e fr o m t h e w a lk ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :
10

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A r o u n d t h e b l o c k , a r o u n d th e p a r k a n d w e w e r e o n o u r w a y b a c k
n e a r in g t h e h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d I n o tic e d o n e o f

t h e m j u m p i n g o v e r t h e f e n c e o r r a t h e r t h e d r i v e w a y g a t e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e c a r w a s o u ts i d e t h e g a t e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I n fr o n t o f th e g a t e C h a ir
that is correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In fr o n t o f t h e g a t e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . O n t h e
20

outside of the gate.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u s a y o n e o f t h e m w a s j u m p in g o v e r th e
fence?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir

fr o m w i t h i n t h e p r o p e r ty j u m p in g o v e r t h e g a t e b a c k o u ts i d e . S o
obviously they were…

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e w a s c o m i n g fr o m i n s i d e th e p r e m i s e s ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir
CHAIRPERSON:

Who had you left at home? Was there – were there

children that you had left at home or anybody?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O : I t w a s m y e ld e s t s o n h e
w a s a s l e e p C h a ir a t t h e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

And my youngest son

a c c o m p a n i e d u s o n h is b ic y c l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

M y w i fe w a lk e d a n d h e

c a m e o n h i s b ic y c l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O : C h a ir l ik e I s a i d a s I w a s
n e a r in g th e p r e m i s e s I n o ti c e d th is – o n e o f m y c o ll e a g u e s j u m p o v e r
t h e fe n c e a n d t h e y g o t i n t o t h e v e h ic le C h a ir th a t w a s p a r k e d i n fr o n t o f
t h e d r i v e w a y g a t e a n d th e y s t a r t e d t h e c a r – s o r r y C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d t h e y s t a r t e d t o d r iv e
in m y d ir e c ti o n w h i c h w a s n o t v e r y f a r o ff f r o m m y h o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A s t h e c a r a p p r o a c h e d o r
c a m e n e a r b y I n o t ic e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s i tt in g i n th e fr o n t s e a t .

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e c a r s t o p p e d a n d h e
told me I am a very hard man to get hold of.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is – w h o w a s s a y in g th a t to y o u n o w ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d I e x p la i n e d t o h i m I

ju s t w e n t f o r a w a l k a r o u n d t h e b l o c k . S o h e a s k e d m e t o j u m p i n to t h e
c a r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H e o ff e r e d m y w i f e a li f t
h o m e a n d I e x p l a in e d t o h i m t h a t i t w a s j u s t a r o u n d th e c o r n e r s o I
g a v e h e r t h e h o u s e k e y a n d s h e c o n ti n u e d t o g e th e r w i th m y s o n t h e y
w e n t b a c k h o m e . I j u m p e d in t o t h e c a r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you not ask why at that stage?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

H e b a s ic a lly i n s tr u c te d

m e t o j u m p i n to t h e c a r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d – y e s . T h i s w a s a f te r h o u r s h e y ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h is w a s b e tw e e n 6 a n d
7 i n t h e e v e n in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u r – y o u r w i f e a n d y o u r s o n p r o c e e d e d t o
w a lk h o m e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u j u m p e d in t o t h i s c a r ?

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C o n t in u e .,
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A I D O O :

L i k e I s a id G e n e r a l

L a z a r u s w a s in t h e fr o n t p a s s e n g e r s e a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s d r iv i n g d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e th e r i t w a s
FM08 or FM09?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F M 0 8 w a s d r iv in g t h e c a r
C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

F M 0 9 w a s s it t in g in t h e

backseat on the left side.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d I j u m p e d i n to t h e

r ig h t s id e o f t h a t – b e h i n d t h e d r iv e r ’s s e a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

A n d w h e n I j u m p e d in

F M 0 8 w h o w a s d r i v i n g t h e v e h ic le s t a r te d t o d r i v e a r o u n d th e b lo c k . If
I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s e n q u ir e d fr o m m e i f I w a s
20

o k a y a n d I s a i d n o I w a s i n d e e d o k a y.

H e s u b s e q u e n tl y a s k e d m e i f

t h e r e is a n y t h i n g I w a n t to t e ll h i m . I s a id n o . I t h in k i f I c a n r e m e m b e r
c o r r e c t ly h e a s k e d m e th e q u e s ti o n a g a i n . A n d I s a i d n o . C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir i f – ju s t b e a r w i t h
m e C h a ir I …

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

S o r r y i t is a f e w y e a r s

n o w I a m j u s t tr y in g to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e m e m b e r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A ID O O :

[ In d is ti n c t ] m y t h o u g h t s

t o g e th e r.
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Colonel Naidoo.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : Ye s .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : J u s t s o th a t y o u c a n r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y y o u
a r e d e a li n g w i th e v e n t s t h a t a r e d e a l t w i t h o n p a g e 6 3 a n d 6 4 o n w a r d s
o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . I f y o u j u s t w a n t t o h a v e a l o o k t h e r e th a t w i ll a ls o
h e l p y o u w it h t h e – t h e F M n a m e s o f t h e a g e n ts s o y o u d o n o t h a v e to
a l w a y s lo o k t h e m u p .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U LU N A ID O O :

Ye s o k a y t h a t is fi n e .

C h a ir I a m a l s o tr y i n g t o j u s t r e m e m b e r t h e e v e n t s b u t I w i ll – I w i ll
r e fe r t o th e d i ff e r e n t p a g e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
20

Just to refresh my

memory as well.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I n t h e m e a n t i m e M s W e n tz e l I j u s t s e e t h a t

s o m e o f t h e c o p ie s h e r e a r e v e r y b a d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a p o lo g is e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

So please make arrangements I always say to the

le g a l t e a m i n a d v a n c e o f b u n d l e s c o m in g to m e o n c e y o u h a v e

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
id e n t i fi e d t h a t t h e y a r e c o p i e s t h a t a r e n o t l e g i b l e o r t h a t r e a lly a r e j u s t
t o o o f p o o r q u a li ty a r r a n g e m e n ts s h o u l d b e m a d e if a t a l l p o s s i b l e s o
t h a t w e h a v e c o p ie s t h a t a r e l e g i b l e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a p o lo g is e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u c a n tr y fo r m a y b e – s o t h a t n e x t w e e k w e h a v e
better pages.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I a p o l o g is e C h a ir.

I u n fo r t u n a t e ly w a s i n

B o ts w a n a l a s t w e e k w h e n t h e s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u n d l e s w e r e p r e p a r e d f o r y o u b u t I w il l m a k e
s u r e th a t i t r e c ti f ie d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u c a n c o n ti n u e C o lo n e l N a i d o o .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Ye s C h a ir.

L ik e I s a i d

General Lazarus there asked me you do not want to tell me anything.
T h a t w a s h i s e x a c t w o r d s t o m e . I f I c a n r e m e m b e r o r a c c o r d in g t o m y
s t a te m e n t a n d I s a id t h a t I d i d n o t . G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h e n s a i d h e h e a r d
that I had made some admissions to the Hawks.
C h a ir I s a id th a t h e - h e g o t i t w r o n g a n d th e n h e a s k e d m e
20

t h e n w h y is C o lo n e l B a r n a r d s a y i n g t h a t y o u a r e - y o u - y o u a d m i t te d to
p u t t in g i n fa ls e c l a i ms t o t h e v a l u e o f R 1 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a t t h a t s t a g e I

a d m i t t e d t o - to s p e a k in g t o - t o - I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
n o w. I a d m it t e d t o h i m t h a t I o r r a t h e r I - I s a i d t h a t I - I a d m i t te d t o -

Page 186 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
to

speaking

to

C o lo n e l B a r n a r d

but

the

night

that

I

-

I

told

C o l o n e l B a r n a r d t h a t I p u t i n f a l s e c la i m s o r a d m i t te d t o h i m p u t ti n g i n
f a ls e c la i m s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Th e r e a f t e r

Chair

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s th e n to ld m e t h a t h e h a d s p o k e n t o a c e r t a i n p a s t o r Pastor Jonathan.

C h a ir t h is p a s t o r w a s a n a s s o c i a te o f Mr M a r i m u t h u

w h ic h I w il l d e a l w i t h f u r t h e r o r la t e r i n m y s t a te m e n t o r ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a r i m u th u ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : M r P a n g a n a th a n - t o m e Marimuthu.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : A n d t h a t t h is w h o l e t h i n g
w o u ld b e o v e r s o o n a n d I m u s t b e s tr o n g . S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e - I a m s o r r y. S o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s s a i d h e h a d
s p o k e n t o a c e r t a i n p a s t o r.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : P a s t o r J o n a t h a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Pastor Jonathan …
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : J a .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e s a id e v e r y t h in g w ill b e o v e r s o o n ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : H e - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
s tr o n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 187 of 194

And

that

I

must

be

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So what I understood

fr o m th is - fr o m w h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o l d m e is w h e n h e s a i d t h a t I
u n d e r s t o o d t h a t I m u s t b e s tr o n g th r o u g h t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n . T h a t i t w ill
be over soon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o d id i t - d i d i t a p p e a r l ik e to y o u h e a c c e p t e d
t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e t o ld C o l o n e l B a r n a r d t h a t y o u h a d p u t i n a f a l s e
- f a ls e c la i m s a m o u n ti n g t o R 1 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I - I m a n a g e d o r I
- I th in k I m a n a g e d to s t a y c a l m a n d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I - I w a s c o n v i n c e d t h a t I
h a d c o n v in c e d h i m t h a t I d i d n o t s p e a k o r I d i d n o t m a k e a n y s u c h
admissions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

So

w h il e

t h is

whole

c o n v e r s a ti o n w a s t a k in g p l a c e w e h a d c ir c l e d t h e b lo c k a r o u n d th e p a r k
n e a r m y h o u s e a n d w e c a m e to c lo s e m y h o u s e a g a i n a n d F M 0 8 d r o v e
in t o t h e d r iv e w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir b e f o r e I c o u l d g e t

o u t o f t h e c a r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o l d h i m to r e v e r s e a n d t o c a r r y o n
driving …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

And

fr o m

there

we

p r o c e e d e d t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e i n I s a n d o v a le i n E d e n v a l e w h ic h

Page 188 of 194

27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
is n o t v e r y f a r f r o m - fr o m m y o w n h o u s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a s w e w e r e a l l

g e t t in g o u t o f t h e c a r a n d I a m r e fe r r in g t o a l l .

I t is m y s e l f,

General Lazarus, FM …
CHAIRPERSON: 08 and FM09.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : 0 8 a n d F M 0 9 .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :
10

F M 1 0 a l s o a r r iv e d a t

General Lazarus’ house …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

And we all proceeded or

proceeded to the braai area.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u p r o c e e d e d t o … ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

The braai area - the

braai area of the house.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e b r a a i a r e a i n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir a t t h is s t a g e t h e r e

w a s ju s t g e n e r a l c o n v e r s a t io n . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d e t a ils o f i t b u t I
lik e I s a y it w a s g e n e r a l c o n v e r s a ti o n . U p t o a s ta g e t h a t F M 1 0 m a d e a
s t a te m e n t t h a t h i s c o n t a c t a t th e H a w k s h a d in f o r m e d h i m t h a t I h a d
m a d e c e r t a i n a d m is s i o n s t o th e m a n d th a t I a m n o w o n th e s i d e o f th e
Hawks.

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir I a g a i n h a d t o g o

in t o d e fe n c e m o d e . I a g a i n d e n ie d w h a t w a s b e in g s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir a n d a t t h is s t a g e I
started to feel uncomfortable …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A s m o r e q u e s ti o n s w e r e

b e i n g d ir e c t e d t o m e r e g a r d in g m y i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h e a d m is s i o n o f
10

p u t t in g i n fa ls e c l a i ms t o t h e H a w k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : N e v e r th e le s s C h a ir I s t il l
managed to stay calm …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

But although - although

s t il l r e m a i n i n g c a l m I w a s u n c o m f o r t a b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir - p a r d o n m e C h a ir.
L ik e I s a id th e r e w a s g e n e r a l c o n v e r s a ti o n u p to a p o i n t w h e r e
20

W e s t v i ll e A ir Tr a v e l s - A ir Tr a v e l Tic k e t s w e r e d is c u s s e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

A n d C o lo n e l F M 0 8 s a i d

t h a t G e n e r a l H a n k e l h a d r e q u e s te d c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t a ti o n fr o m h i m
r e g a r d in g a ir t ic k e ts .

Colonel FM10 then told Colonel FM08 that he

m u s t s p e a k to h i s c o n t a c t . C o n ta c t r e f e r r i n g t o th e c o n t a c t a t W e s tv il le

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
A ir Tr a v e l . Th is p a r ti c u la r i n d iv i d u a l I - I k n o w a s M a h e s h . I a m - I a m
n o t s u r e w h a t is h i s s u r n a m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

And

that

th e y

must

d e s tr o y t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e a ir tic k e t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w - o k a y. W h o w a s g iv i n g t h e i n s tr u c t io n t h a t t h e
e v i d e n c e o f a ir ti c k e t s s h o u l d b e d e s tr o y e d ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, F - F M 0 8 s a i d t h a t
G e n e r a l H a n k e l w a s m a k i n g c e r ta i n i n q u ir i e s r e g a r d i n g a ir ti c k e t s …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

From

this

p a r tic u la r

s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r n a m e ly W e s tv il l e A ir Tr a v e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

F M 1 0 t o l d F M 0 8 th a t h e

m u s t s p e a k to h i s c o n t a c t a t t h e tr a v e l a g e n t a n d t h a t t h e y m u s t d e s t r o y
a l l o f th e - th e in v o ic e s o r r e l a t e d m a t te r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

R e g a r d in g

th e tr a v e l .

M o r e e s p e c i a l ly to - t o C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H u h - u h .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir, I f o r g o t to m e n ti o n
o r I d id m e n ti o n F M 0 9 w a s a ls o p a r t o f t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u d i d m e n ti o n F M 0 9 .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

when

this

s u g g e s t io n w a s m a d e b y F M - F M 1 0 t o F M 0 8 a ll - a ll w h o w e r e p r e s e n t

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
a t t h e b r a a i a r e a w a s a g r e e m e n t - w a s i n a g r e e m e n t w i t h th e
s u g g e s t io n . N o o n e d is a g r e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

C h a ir

what

I

can

r e m e m b e r n e x t F M 0 8 s a id th a t h e w i ll s p e a k to h is c o n t a c t w h o m I
r e fe r r e d t o p r e v io u s ly a s M a h e s h . H e w o r k e d o ff a la p t o p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t t o s p e ll M a h e s h ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : I th in k i t is
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t … ?
10

C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

I th i n k i t w o u l d b e M - A -

H - E - S- H C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : L i k e I s a y I a m - I a m n o t
t o o s u r e w h a t h is s u r n a m e w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F M 0 8 s a i d t h a t h e w o u l d
s p e a k t o M a h e s h a s h e w o r k e d o ff a l a p to p a n d h e w o u l d s p e a k t o h i m
t o e n s u r e th a t t h e la p t o p w a s e i t h e r d e s tr o y e d o r d a m a g e d s o t h e
evidence would be lost.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I w a s la t e r g i v e n t o
u n d e r s t a n d th is w a s a p p a r e n t ly n o t d o n e i n ti m e a s - I a m n o t s u r e .
P a r d o n m e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir t h is w a s a p p a r e n tl y

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27 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 172
n o t d o n e in t i m e b e c a u s e I w a s l a te r i n fo r m e d th a t t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s d id
m a n a g e t o - t o o b t a i n c e r t a i n r e c o r d s fr o m - fr o m M a h e s h p r i o r t o - t o
h i m d e s tr o y in g …
CHAIRPERSON: The records?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h e r e c o r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y ; a n d h o w d i d t h i s g a t h e r i n g a t th e b r a a i a r e a o f
General Lazarus’ house end?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

Chair if I may just go to

t h e n e x t i n c i d e n t t h a t is s ti ll h a p p e n e d a t t h e b r a a i a r e a .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

After

t h is

-

this

c o n v e r s a ti o n to o k p l a c e r e g a r d i n g t h e - th e d e s t r u c ti o n o f t h e e v i d e n c e
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : R e l a t i n g t o t h e a ir tic k e t s
F M 0 9 a s k e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i f h e s h o u l d s p i n a s to r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

General Lazarus did not

s a y a n y th i n g b u t h e n o d d e d h is h e a d .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h is m a d e m e b e l ie v e

t h a t h e h a d a g r e e d w i th w h a t F M 0 9 h a d s u g g e s t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : C h a ir I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r
t h e d e t a i ls th e r e a ft e r. I a m ta k i n g a b o u t t h e b r a a i a r e a . I f t h e r e w a s

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a n y m o r e t a l k o r i t w a s ju s t g e n e r a l c o n v e r s a ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

But what I can say is

a ft e r - a ft e r w e h a d f in is h e d a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o u s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : F M 0 9 s u g g e s te d t h a t h e ,
FM08 and I go for a drink.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. I th in k I w o u l d lik e u s t o s t o p t h e r e f o r t h e
d a y a n d t h e n w h e n w e r e s u m e o n M o n d a y y o u c a n t h e n t a k e u s fr o m
10

t h e r e w h e r e th e r e w a s t h e s u g g e s ti o n t h a t y o u g o f o r d r i n k s .

Is th a t

a lr i g h t ?
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O :

T h a t is p e r f e c t C h a ir.

Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

W e a r e g o i n g t o a d jo u r n a t th is s t a g e

t h e n a n d t o m o r r o w - I m e a n o n M o n d a y n o t t o m o r r o w. O n M o n d a y w e
w i ll s ta r t a t 1 0 a s u s u a l .

Thank you very much Colonel Naidoo.

A r r a n g e m e n t s w il l b e m a d e f o r y o u t o b e a ls o a v a i la b le o n M o n d a y fo r
u s to c o n ti n u e .
C O L O N E L D H A N A J AYA G A N G U L U N A I D O O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 3 0 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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