C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 27 JUNE 2019 D AY 1 2 2 20 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 PROCEEDINGS ON 27 JUNE 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g D C J – C h a ir a p o lo g i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s a r e w e r e a d y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e in d e e d C h a ir. If I may just deal with o n e o r t w o p r o c e d u r a l a s p e c t s b e f o r e w e s w e a r in t o d a y ’s w it n e s s M r M a h l a n g u . M r M a h l a n g u p r o v i d e d u s w i t h h is s t a t e m e n t o n th e Fr id a y b e f o r e h e w a s o r i g i n a ll y s c h e d u l e d to g i v e e v i d e n c e a n d h e w a s s e n t p u r s u a n t t o o u r r e c e i p t o f th a t c e r ta i n f u r th e r d o c u m e n ts . 10 I have e n g a g e d w i t h h i m a n d h i s a t t o r n e y s a b o u t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts . Th e r e is o n e in p a r ti c u l a r i n w h i c h h e h a s r e q u e s t e d fu r t h e r ti m e t o a d d r e s s c e r t a i n a s p e c t s . A t t h a t p o in t in t i m e I i n d ic a t e d t h a t a s a - t h e l e g a l t e a m w e w o u ld h a v e n o d i ffi c u l ty w i th t h a t a n d a s a c o n s e q u e n c e I w ill n o t a s k h i m a b o u t t h o s e a s p e c ts o f t h e d o c u m e n ts u n til w e h a v e th e f u ll e r v e r s i o n fr o m h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It i s n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d in g s th a t I d o s o b u t w e w il l lo o k fo r w a r d t o t h e f u l le r a c c o u n t i n d u e c o u r s e . C h a ir I h a v e a l s o b e e n a l e r te d to t h e f a c t th a t th e r e a r e a b o u t t h r e e 20 c h a n g e s o r c o r r e c t io n s t h a t M r M a h l a n g u w is h e s t o m a k e i n h is s t a te m e n t . I a m a w a r e t h a t h e d i d t h e n p r o v id e a f u ll e r c o p y w i th t h e c h a n g e s b u t I a m g o in g t o r e q u e s t t h a t w e w o r k o ff th e o r ig in a l v e r s io n b e c a u s e t h a t is t h e v e r s io n w e h a v e a ll b e e n w o r k i n g w i th u n ti l n o w b u t w e w il l m a k e t h e r e l e v a n t c o r r e c t io n s w h e r e t h e y a r i s e i n th e c o u r s e o f h is e v i d e n c e . I f th a t i s s a t is f a c to r y ? Page 2 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d C h a ir t h e fi n a l t h i n g is th e r e a r e t h r e e a ffi d a v i ts o f w i t n e s s e s w h o – t o w h o m r e f e r e n c e a n d t o w h ic h a ff id a v i t r e fe r e n c e w i ll b e m a d e i n t h e c o u r s e o f M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v id e n c e t o d a y. T h e y h a v e b e e n s e n t t o th e r e l e v a n t p e r s o n s i m p l ic a t e d b y t h o s e a ffi d a v i ts a n d t h e y h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d t o M r M a h la n g u i n a d v a n c e o f t o d a y. C h a i r w e d o s o o n ly p r o v is io n a l ly o f c o u r s e . It is s i m p l y th a t t h e y a r e v e r y s m a l l a s p e c ts o f t h e e v i d e n c e th a t fi ll a g a p s o m e w h e r e b u t if a t a n y p o i n t t h e y a r e d is p u te d o r c o n t e n t i o u s o f c o u r s e w e w il l 10 a p p r o a c h y o u a g a i n to m a k e – t o ta k e s t e p s t o t h e n c a ll t h o s e w i t n e s s e s . B u t j u s t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f g e t ti n g M r M a h l a n g u ’s c o m m e n t o n a n d r e a c t io n to s o m e o f th e m I p r o p o s e to d e a l w i t h t h e m in t h e c o u r s e o f t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. T h e n w it h o u t f u r t h e r a d o i f t h e witness could be sworn in? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u p le a s e a d m i n i s t e r th e o a t h o r a ff ir m a ti o n ? R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D a n i e l P h o l is a n i M a h l a n g u . 20 REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Nope. REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 3 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; th e w h o le tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t t h e tr u th , i s s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: So help me God. REGISTRAR: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir if w e c o u l d j u s t f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s e n te r Mr M a h l a n g u ’s fi le c o n ta in i n g h is s t a te m e n t a n d a n n e x u r e s a s Ex h ib i t D D 4 . 10 CHAIRPERSON: T h e le v e r a r c h f il e c o n ta in i n g M r P h o l is a n i D a n i e l M a h l a n g u ’s a ffi d a v i t w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t D D 4 . ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA: M r M a h la n g u j u s t to o r i e n ta t e y o u i n t e r m s o f w h a t is i n f r o n t o f y o u t o d a y a t t h e w i t n e s s t a b le . Yo u h a v e in t h e fi le i m m e d ia t e l y i n fr o n t o f y o u y o u r s t a te m e n t a s i t w a s p r o v i d e d to t h e c o m m i s s io n o n t h e 1 4 J u n e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a ls o h a v e s e t o f f il e s o n t h e c h a ir n e x t t o y o u . T h o s e a r e t h e f il e s c o n t a in in g th e e v id e n c e o f p r e v io u s w i t n e s s e s a n d th e r e w il l b e p o i n ts i n th e c o u r s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e t o d a y w h e r e I w il l 20 a s k y o u to t a k e o n e o f th e m a n d f in d a p a g e i n i t fo r th e p u r p o s e s o f t h e e v i d e n c e . A n d th e n t h e r e a r e a l s o a s o f t f il e i n fr o n t o f y o u w h i c h w i ll b e c o m e r e l e v a n t l a t e r. C h a ir j u s t to e x p l a in th e s o ft fi le b e c a u s e I a ls o h a v e a c o p y t h a t I w o u l d l ik e to h a n d u p t o y o u . W h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e B N P b i d t h a t w e n t in fo r t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r s e r v i c e s t e n d e r w a s t h a t i t w a s p a r tly l o c a te d i n M s S t i m p e l ’s a n n e x u r e s a n d Page 4 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 then p a r t ly located in Ms N h a n ts i’s annexures. What I have e n d e a v o u r e d t o d o t o e a s e t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d i n g s is p u t t h e m t o g e t h e r i n a s i n g l e p l a c e s o t h a t w e d o n o t h a v e t o k e e p m o v i n g b e tw e e n th o s e t w o fi le s a t t h e r e le v a n t p o i n t . A n d s o I b e g l e a v e i f I m a y j u s t to h a n d up that version of yours? Yo u w i ll s e e C h a ir t h a t i t a c t u a ll y c o n t a in s t h e p a g in a ti o n f r o m M s N h a n ts i ’s a n d Ms S ti m p e l’s b u n d l e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e y h a v e b e e n c o n s o li d a t e d i n o n e p l a c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o e a s e t h e e v id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f I m a y b e g l e a v e to h a n d t h a t u p a n d t h e n t h a t is t h e o t h e r d o c u m e n t in fr o n t o f y o u M r M a h l a n g u i t is n o t a n y th in g y o u h a v e n o t s e e n i t i s j u s t p u ll i n g t h o s e v a r i o u s p a r ts t o g e th e r in o n e p l a c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is n e e d n o t g o i n t o r e c o r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t is a lr e a d y … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is t h e r e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I n h e r e i t i s j u s t fo r c o n v e n i e n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is f o r c o n v e n i e n c e fo r t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u I w o u l d th e n l ik e to t a k e y o u to Page 5 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 y o u r s ta t e m e n t i f w e m a y t h a t i s i n E x h i b i t D D 4 a n d y o u w i ll fi n d i t c o m m e n c i n g o n p a g e 1 a n d a s I h a v e i t i t r u n s a l l th e w a y t o p a g e 5 4 . I f y o u c o u l d tu r n u p p a g e 5 4 in E x h i b i t D D 4 . M r M a h l a n g u . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u c o n f ir m t h a t th a t is y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n page 54? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t i s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d … CHAIRPERSON: 10 I t h in k m a y b e y o u c a n b r i n g t h e m ic r o p h o n e a l i tt l e c lo s e r t o y o u . J u s t a l it t le c l o s e r. J a . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n I ta k e i t t h a t n o w b e i n g o a t h y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h e s t a t e m e n t y o u p r o v id e d i s tr u e a n d c o r r e c t b a r r i n g th e t h r e e c o r r e c ti o n s th a t I k n o w y o u w a n t to m a k e t o i t a n d w e w il l d e a l with in the course of evidence? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir y e s i t i s m y – it is tr u e . It is m y s ta t e m e n t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. And could I just ask one other p o i n t o f c l a r i f ic a t i o n j u s t i n t e r m s o f t h e w a y y o u r s t a t e m e n t is 20 s tr u c t u r e d a s I h a v e i t y o u b e g i n w i th th e b a c k g r o u n d s e c ti o n , y o u t h e n d e t a i l r e a lly t h e i n t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n B N P a n d S A A a n d t h e n t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h e s ta t e m e n t y o u a c tu a lly d e a l w i t h a s e r ie s o f q u e s t io n s t h a t w e r e p u t t o y o u a t a p r io r m e e ti n g w i t h t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s in v e s t i g a t o r s a n d l e g a l te a m , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir y e s i t is . Page 6 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d c a n I c o n f ir m t h a t th e a n s w e r s t h a t y o u g i v e to t h o s e q u e s t io n s t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f th e s t a t e m e n t a r e y o u r a n s w e r s t o t h o s e q u e s ti o n s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir y e s in d e e d th e y a r e my a n s w e r s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C a n I ju s t b e c l e a r a s t o w h y I a s k ? O n o c c a s i o n i n th o s e a n s w e r s y o u r e fe r t o y o u r s e l f i n t h e th ir d p e r s o n a n d s o – w h e r e a s p r e v io u s ly I la t e r y o u s a y M r M a h la n g u s o I j u s t n e e d e d t o b e c l e a r t h a t w h a t e v e r w e s e e in t h is s ta t e m e n t i s i n f a c t 10 y o u r a c c o u n t o f t h e f a c ts , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th r o u g h y o u C h a i r y e s i t is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u s o m u c h . Mr M a h l a n g u a ls o b e f o r e I g e t in t o t h e d e t a i l t h e r e w e r e j u s t t w o p a r ts i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t w h e r e y o u in d ic a t e d t h a t c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts h a s b e e n i n d i c a t e d w o u ld b e m a d e a v a i la b l e t o y o u a f te r t h a t m e e t in g w it h t h e c o m m i s s i o n . Th e t w o s e ts th a t y o u r e fe r t o w e r e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m th e F S B t o t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d a ls o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o G r is s a g I n v e s t o r s m e e ti n g s . I c a n t e l l y o u w h e r e y o u t a k e t h o s e u p i f y o u w o u l d l ik e t o g o t o it . B u t t h e u p s h o t o f m y q u e s ti o n is y o u i n d ic a t e i n t h e s t a t e m e n t 20 t h a t th e y w e r e n o t p r o v i d e d . I w i ll t a k e y o u t o w h e r e t h e y w e r e i n th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e p r o v i d e d t o y o u i f y o u p e r s is t w i t h t h e c o n c e r n t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t p r o v id e d t o y o u p r i o r t o y o u r s t a te m e n t b e i n g p r o d u c e d . O r c a n I t a k e it t h a t y o u a r e s a ti s f i e d t h a t t h o s e tw o s e ts o f d o c u m e n ts w e r e p r o v i d e d to y o u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I – th r o u g h y o u C h a ir – I g u e s s Page 7 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 what we can do is as we progress. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A n d a s p e c ts o f t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e m w e c a n a c t u a l ly y o u k n o w … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D e a l w i t h i t c e r ta i n ly. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m h a p p y t o d o t h a t a n d I c a n s h o w y o u t h e n w h e r e th e y w e r e i n t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t w e r e s e n t to y o u . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u s o m u c h . M r M a h l a n g u t h e n I w o u l d lik e to s ta r t i f w e m a y a t p a g e 2 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t b e c a u s e t h e r e y o u d e t a i l f o r u s y o u r r o l e in B N P C a p i t a l a n d s o m e o f y o u r b a c k g r o u n d . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : Th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. I am b a s ic a lly t h e C E O o f B N P C a p i ta l w h ic h is th e c o m p a n y f o r m e d i n 2 0 1 0 a n d b a s i c a lly I t h i n k f o r a s I i n d ic a te d in t h is p a r tic u la r s ta t e m e n t t h a t in 2 0 1 7 w e a c t u a ll y c h a n g e d a [i n d is ti n c t ] s i g n f o r r e b r a n d i n g . B u t f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h i s d is c u s s i o n w e a r e a c t u a l ly n a m e i t B N P C a p i t a l f o r c o n s i s te n c y. 20 A s I h a v e a c t u a l ly i n d i c a t e d i n my s t a t e m e n t t h a t I a m b a s ic a lly r e s p o n s i b le – i n c h a r g e o f a c t u a l ly r u n n i n g a ll t h e a c t iv i t ie s o f B N P C a p i ta l . Th a t is b e i n g a d ir e c t o r a n d i n v o lv e d w i t h t h e d a y t o d a y r u n n in g o f t h e b u s in e s s . M u s t I a c t u a ll y p r o c e e d b e c a u s e I t h in k … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l l e t m e i f I m a y a s k o n e o r t w o f o ll o w u p q u e s t io n s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 8 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d a t p a g e 2 f r o m p a r a g r a p h 1 . 2 y o u a r e t h e s o l e d ir e c to r o f B N P C a p i t a l i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 . 3 y o u ta lk a b o u t y o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a n d a m o n g s t t h e m I h a v e i t t h e r e th a t y o u i n d ic a te th a t it is y o u r d u ty t o r u n t h e c o m p a n y a n d e n s u r e t h a t i t c o m p li e s w i th a ll r e l e v a n t l a w s a n d c o r p o r a te g o v e r n a n c e r e q u ir e m e n t s , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir d e f in i te ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n M r M a h l a n g u in t e r m s o f 10 y o u r o w n q u a li f ic a ti o n s a n d e x p e r i e n c e y o u w i ll fi n d t h o s e b e g i n n in g over the page at page 3. Can you please take us through what those are? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I have got a Bachelor of B u s i n e s s S c i e n c e w h ic h is a t t h e W i ts U n iv e r s i ty a n d H o n o u r s i n M a t h e m a t ic s w h ic h was done at Wits U n iv e r s it y and Advanced [i n d is t in c t] C o m p a n y L a w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n if w e c a n p r o g r e s s d o w n t h a t p a g e , p a g e 3 . A t p a r a g r a p h 2 .2 y o u d e s c r i b e t h e n a t u r e o f B N P C a p it a l’s b u s in e s s , w h a t is th a t ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : I t is – th r o u g h y o u C h a ir i t is a c t u a ll y a n in d e p e n d e n t a d v is o r y a n d i n v e s t m e n t c o m p a n y w h ic h is 100% black owned and managed. A n d t h e c o m p a n y o ffe r s b a s i c a ll y a d v is o r y s e r v ic e s w h ic h a r e b u il t o n f o u n d a t i o n o f e ffic i e n c y a n d e ffe c tiv e d e liv e r y i n v e s t m e n t s o l u t i o n s – s e r v ic e s a n d s o l u ti o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d t h e n i f w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o Page 9 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 p a g e 4 y o u d e t a i l s o m e o f y o u r e x p e r i e n c e a n d th e e x p e r i e n c e o f B N P C a p it a l u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 2 . 5 , d o y o u s e e th a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d o – y e s t h r o u g h C h a ir I do. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t p a r a g r a p h a t p a r a g r a p h 2 . 5 .1 y o u a r e d e t a ili n g in d iv i d u a l e x p e r i e n c e , is t h a t y o u r experience Mr Mahlangu? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir y e s i t is m y experience. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w il l c o m e b a c k t o w h a t i t i s i n a m o m e n t i f I may but then under paragraph 2 . 5 .2 you d e ta il BNP C a p i t a l ’s e x p e r i e n c e a s d i s t i n c t f r o m y o u r o w n , is th a t c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Through you Chair yes it is correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. A n d in te r ms o f i n d iv i d u a l e x p e r i e n c e w h a t I w o u ld l ik e t o f o c u s o n M r M a h l a n g u is w h a t e x p e r i e n c e y o u a n d B N P C a p i t a l h a d in 2 0 1 6 ? Because 2016 F e b r u a r y / M a r c h is w h e n t h e b i d fo r t h e t r a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r y s e r v ic e s w a s s u b m i t t e d . S o w h a t I j u s t w a n t to b e c le a r a b o u t i n th is p a r a g r a p h 20 is w h ic h is e x p e r i e n c e y o u h a d o r B N P C a p it a l h a d a t t h e t i m e a n d w h ic h is e x p e r i e n c e th a t m a y h a v e b e e n o b ta in e d s i n c e th e n ? S o i f y o u c o u l d a s s is t u s w it h th a t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : O k a y t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. I t h i n k – o k a y w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g is o n th is p a r tic u la r p a g e w h a t I h a v e d e ta il e d it is o n ly m y e x p e r i e n c e b u t n o t th e e x p e r i e n c e o f t h e c o m p a n y. I s h o w Page 10 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 it [i n d i s t i n c t ] [ m u m b l in g ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is o n p a g e 4 ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s o n p a g e 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e ll M s H o f m e y r I d o n o t k n o w if y o u a r e s t il l g o i n g t o c o m e t o th is b u t a t 2 – a t p a g e 3 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I t h in k i t w il l b e i m p o r t a n t fo r h i m t o g iv e t h a t – t h e le n g t h o f e x p e r i e n c e t h a t h e g iv e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : t h e r e b u t o b v io u s ly p o in t y o u m a k e a b o u t 2 0 1 6 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i m p o r ta n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: So… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir i f I m a y I w il l c o m e to i t a t t h e e n d b e c a u s e i t is s o m e th i n g o f a c o n c lu s o r y a s p e c t i n 2 . 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is fi n e ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But let us go through if we can focus for now M r M a h l a n g u a t 2 .5 . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e to b e w h a t y o u a c t u a l 20 s e t o u t t h e r e is o w n e x p e r ie n c e n o t B N P C a p it a l’s e x p e r i e n c e , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e r e i t s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 .5 . 2 B N P C a p it a l e x p e r i e n c e m u s t w e t a k e t h a t a c t u a ll y t o b e y o u r i n d iv i d u a l experience? Page 11 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O k a y 2 . 5 i s a c tu a lly – t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir – i t i s d o n e in t w o w a y s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e fir s t p a r t w h ic h i s 2 . 5 . 1 t h a t is i n d iv i d u a l e x p e r ie n c e . A n d w h e n y o u g o d o w n t o 2 .5 . 2 th a t i s a company experience. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . L e t u s f o c u s th e n fir s t a t i n d iv i d u a l experience. O f t h a t e x p e r i e n c e th a t y o u lis t t h e r e p l e a s e t e ll u s y o u had a – by 2016? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t h in k I a g r e e w i t h t h e C h a i r f o r o b v i o u s r e a s o n s w h e n h e a c t u a ll y m e n ti o n e d p a g e 3 b e c a u s e o n – b e c a u s e w h a t b a s ic a l ly 2 . 5 h a s d o n e i s t h e s u m m a r y o f t h e e x p e r ie n c e I d i d n o t a c t u a l ly l is t e v e r y th i n g t h a t p e r t a i n s t o m y e x p e r i e n c e . I t is ju s t a s u m m a r y o f a f e w t r a n s a c t io n s t h a t I t h i n k w e r e k e y a s f a r a s t h is c o m m i s s io n is c o n c e r n e d . H o w e v e r i f I m a y – i f y o u m a y i n d u l g e m e to a c t u a ll y j u s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t t o s t a r t a t 3 ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is fi n e . J a s t a r t a t 3 . 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A s fa r a s 2 . 3 – s o r r y a s f a r a s 2 .3 is c o n c e r n e d t h e r e is a n … CHAIRPERSON: I f y o u f e e l t h a t i s t o o c lo s e y o u c a n m o v e i t a l i t tl e bit. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I may have asked you to bring it too close so just… ja Page 12 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 o k a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Th e r e is a c o r r e c ti o n t h a t I w a n t t o m a k e w h e r e i t is w r it t e n 2 . 3 I h a v e a d e c a d e ’s e x p e r i e n c e w h ic h is a c t u a ll y i t is n o t t r u e I h a v e m o r e t h a n c l o s e t o t w o d e c a d e s o f e x p e r i e n c e in t h e i n v e s t m e n t s p a c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w h e r e i t s a y s I h a v e m o r e th a n a d e c a d e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: More than a d e c a d e ’s experience. CHAIRPERSON: Experience 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y i t s h o u ld s a y m o r e th a n t w o d e c a d e s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Close, close to two decades. C H A I R P E R S O N : C lo s e t o t w o d e c a d e s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s – d e c a d e s o f e x p e r ie n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : B a s ic a l ly I t h i n k I h a v e t o u c h e d a s f a r a s m y q u a l if ic a ti o n s a r e c o n c e r n e d w h ic h is – it is m e r e l y a B a c h e l o r o f E c o n o m ic S c i e n c e a n d H o n o u r s in M a t h e m a ti c s a n d a l s o c o m p a n y la w. As I h a v e i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e t h a t B N P C a p i t a l w a s a c t u a lly 20 – i t is a n i n d e p e n d e n t a n d a d v is o r y f ir m w h ic h w a s s t a r t e d i n 2 0 1 0 . I n e s s e n c e i t w a s s ta r t e d b y t h r e e i n d iv i d u a ls w e a ll a c tu a l ly c a m e f r o m d i ff e r e n t fi n a n c i a l i n s t i tu t io n s w h ic h w a s s e n i o r g u y s w e r e a c t u a ll y w o r k i n g a t D e l o i t te w h i c h i s Vo n a n i M a t h e b u la t h e g u y w h ic h w e a r e a c t u a ll y g o i n g to ta lk a b o u t a n d t h e g u y – th e o t h e r g u y w a s Th u s o S e n c h o w h i c h w a s – a c t u a lly c a m e fr o m K a g is o In v e s t m e n t s . S o w h e n Page 13 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 w e s t a r t e d t h a t c o m p a n y o u r m a in o b j e c ti v e o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r c o m p a n y w a s t o a c tu a lly f o r m a p r iv a te e q u it y f u n d b e c a u s e b a s e d o n m y e x p e r i e n c e I w i ll a c tu a lly g o t h r o u g h i t h e r e g i v e n th a t I h a v e b e e n a c t u a ll y i n th e p r i v a t e e q u i ty s p a c e fo r a w h il e a n d a s 2 . 5 i n d ic a t e I h a v e b e e n e n g a g e d w i th d i ff e r e n t f i n a n c ia l i n s ti t u ti o n s m y s e lf a n d b a s ic a lly I h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d w i th h u g e b l u e c h i p s c o m p a n i e s a s f a r a s tr a n s a c ti o n is c o n c e r n e d a n d b a s i c a ll y d o n e s o m a n y p r i v a t e e q u i ty tr a n s a c ti o n s . A n d a s f a r a s j u s t t o g iv e a s u m m a r y o f m y e x p e r i e n c e – t h e e x p e r i e n c e a s f a r a s 2 .3 a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d w e – a s a n i n d iv id u a l 10 o r a c t u a l ly a c o m p a n y b e c a u s e a s fa r a s t h e s t a te m e n t is c o n c e r n e d it w a s b a s i c a ll y s a y in g y o u M r M a h l a n g u n o t a c o m p a n y s o n o w I h a d to a c t u a ll y b e c a r e f u l a s t o h o w I c u t i t o u t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I g u e s s t h a t s o m e o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e y o u a c q u ir e d b e f o r e B N P w a s f o r m e d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e n y o u – w h e n B N P w a s fo r m e d a n d y o u b e i n g t h e s o le d ir e c t o r t h a t – t h a t e x p e r i e n c e b e n e f i tt e d t h e c o m p a n y ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I agree with… C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r p e r s o n a l e x p e r i e n c e w o u l d b e n e fi t th e c o m p a n y ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a g r e e w it h y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o m p a n y m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n a l l t h e t h i n g s t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n i n v o l v e d b u t th e c o m p a n y d o e s b e n e f it fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t i ts s o l e d ir e c t o r i s s o m e b o d y w i t h t h a t k i n d o f e x p e r i e n c e . Page 14 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly C h a ir I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir b u t j u s t to a d d o n t h a t C h a ir a s I s a i d t h a t th e r e w e r e a c t u a ll y t h r e e g e n tl e m e n th a t w e r e i n v o lv e d a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s a n d t h o s e g e n t l e m e n w e r e a c t u a ll y v e r y s e n i o r g u y s . A s I s a i d t h a t t h e y w e r e a c tu a lly s e n i o r a n d you know one of the… CHAIRPERSON: At the time when BNP was formed? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly s o … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Oh you are the sole director now but you have not a l w a y s b e e n th e s o l e d ir e c t o r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O k a y l e t m e j u s t g iv e a b a c k g r o u n d a s f a r a s th a t a s p e c t is c o n c e r n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: W h e n t h e B N P C a p i ta l – w h e n BNP was formed … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s in 2 0 1 0 ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 2010 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o t h e i d e a w a s t o a c tu a lly in c o r p o r a t e o th e r m e m b e r s y o u k n o w to a c t u a ll y m a k e t h e m d i r e c t o r s b u t i t c o u ld n o t h a p p e n i n th a t p a r t ic u l a r f a s h i o n f o r o b v i o u s r e a s o n s t h a t a s ti m e p r o g r e s s e d s o m e g u y s y o u k n o w r e a l is e d a c t u a l ly id e n t i fi e d c e r ta in a s p e c ts w i t h i n t h e b u s i n e s s t o s a y th e y a c t u a l ly w a n t t o r u n w i t h c e r t a i n y o u k n o w p a r t o f t h e b u s i n e s s o n t h e ir o w n b e c a u s e Page 15 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h e y h a v e a c t u a l ly i d e n t i fi e d a n ic h e fo r t h e m s e lv e s . A n d s o m e o f t h e m a c t u a ll y – o n e o f t h e m a c t u a l ly l e f t b u t o t h e r – o n e p e r s o n – i t w a s a s e n i o r g u y t h a t r e m a in e d a c t u a l ly [ i n d is ti n c t ] o u t o f t h e b u s in e s s a n d a c t u a ll y f o r m e d h is o w n a n d th e n h e s a id th is i s w h e r e h e a c tu a lly focus. S o h o w e v e r w h e n w e s ta r t e d a t t h e b e g in n in g i t w a s – i t w a s e x p e r i e n c e w h ic h b a s ic a lly w a s b r o u g h t b y t h r e e i n d iv id u a l s n o t o n e in d i v i d u a l . CHAIRPERSON: But did the other two ever become part of BNP f o r m e r ly ? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s , n o , y e s th e y w e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja at the – oh so when BNP was formed they were d ir e c t o r s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o t n e c e s s a r i ly d ir e c t o r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t d ir e c to r s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th e y … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w h a t p o s i ti o n s d i d t h e y o c c u p y ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: They were quite senior in a sense that… C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e s e n io r o ff ic i a ls o f t h e c o m p a n y ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e r e y o u th e o n ly d ir e c t o r e v e n a t t h a t t i m e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I t h i n k t h e m e r e fa c t is w e ju s t t o o k t h in g s li g h t ly th e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: B e c a u s e a ll o f u s c a m e fr o m Page 16 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 d i ff e r e n t in s t i tu t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o w e w e r e b u s y t r y i n g to f in d o u r f o o ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A s f a r a s t h is b u s i n e s s y o u know space is concerned. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 S o w h e n – w h i l e ti m e – y o u k n o w a s ti m e p r o g r e s s e d i t is o n ly t h e n th a t w e r e a lis e d t h a t y o u k n o w w h a t w e a c t u a l ly h a v e n o t f o r m e r ly a c t u a l l y e n g a g e d o u r s e l v e s w h a t is the plan going forward? A n d o n e i n d iv i d u a l w h i c h i s Th u s o a c tu a lly le f t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n d i d th e y le a v e ? B e c a u s e w e j u s t w a n t to s e e w h e n y o u b e c a m e a l o n e a n d w h e n t h e y le f t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Thuso left if – CHAIRPERSON: W e d o n o t n e e d th e a c t u a l d a te ju s t a r o u n d a b o u t – a n e s t i m a te o f m o n t h o r w h a t e v e r. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t h i n k o n e s t a r te d r u n n i n g t h is 20 b u s i n e s s o n m y – o r a s a s o le d ir e c to r s o t o s p e a k i n 2 0 0 0 a n d – b e c a u s e 2 0 1 6 o n e o f th e g u y s w a s s ti ll th e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s s t ill t h e r e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h e o t h e r o n e h a d l e ft ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e o t h e r o n e h a d l e f t. Page 17 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b y 2 0 1 6 t h e r e w e r e o n ly t w o o f th e th r e e w h o w e r e s t il l w it h B N P ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d w h e n d i d t h e o t h e r le a v e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : F o r m e r ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e w h o w a s s ti ll th e r e i n 2 0 1 6 ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : F o r m e r ly s o m e t i m e i n 2 0 1 6 y e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I cannot … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u b e c a m e – b u t t h r o u g h o u t th is p e r i o d y o u w e r e t h e d ir e c t o r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w e r e t h e – j a t h e y h a d p o s i ti o n s b u t t h e – y o u were the director? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e fi n i t e l y b u t a t t h e s a m e t i m e w e a l l r u n n in g m a n a g e m e n t s o w e a r e a l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u i f I m a y j u s t c l a r i fy o n e o r tw o t h i n g s . W h e n d id y o u o b t a i n y o u r a d v a n c e d d ip l o m a i n c o m p a n y l a w ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W h il e I w a s a t P I C w h ic h is – j a – it was … Page 18 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o m e y e a r s b e f o r e 2 0 1 6 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s a g e s a g o . J a b e fo r e t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n o f a d ir e c t o r i n a c o m p a n y, c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w a s o n ly y o u w h o w a s t h e s o l e d ir e c to r o f B N P C a p i t a l a t a n y p o i n t p r io r t o 2 0 1 6 ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e p e o p le t h a t y o u r e f e r t o I w o u l d lik e t o g e t 10 t h e ir n a m e s o n t h e r e c o r d p le a s e . I understand one of them was Mr Vo n a n i M a t h e b u la , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d te ll u s w a s h e a n e m p lo y e e o f t h e c o m p a n y then? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t h i n k a s t h e f a c ts s ta n d s n o w y e s h e w a s a n e m p lo y e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u h e l p u s w i t h th a t? W h a t d o e s i t m e a n t o s a y a s t h e f a c ts s t a n d s n o w ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I m e a n I t h in k t h r o u g h y o u 20 C h a ir y o u j u s t m e n ti o n e d s o m e th in g v e r y c r it ic a l a s f a r a s c o m p a n y la w is c o n c e r n e d . G iv e n th a t h e w a s n o t a d i r e c t o r th e o n ly t h i n g t h a t h e can be is an employee. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s h e r e m u n e r a t e d b y t h e c o m p a n y ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . A n d t h e n y o u m e n t io n e d a th ir d Page 19 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 p e r s o n w h o w a s th a t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y – I a m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. I g e t th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t th e s t a tu s o f t h o s e t w o m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n v e r y c l e a r a t t h e ti m e . Yo u s e e m to h e s i t a te t o d e fi n e t h e m o r d e s c r i b e t h e m i n a n y p a r ti c u l a r f a s h i o n m a y b e b e c a u s e t h e t h r e e o f y o u h a d d is c u s s e d fo r m i n g th is e n t i ty a n d s o o n , is m y i m p r e s s io n c o r r e c t ? T h a t t h e ir s t a t u s m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a s c le a r a s a l l t h a t in t e r m s o f w h a t th e y w e r e f o r m a ll y ? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o t tr u e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I th in k w h e n t h i n g s s ta r t e d .. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m i g h t n o t h a v e b o th e r e d a b o u t ti tl e s a n d jo b ti t le s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s b e c a u s e w h e n w e s ta r t e d u n f o r t u – o k a y w h e n w e s t a r t e d w e a c t u a l ly w a n t e d t o g o w i th i n a n e n t i ty t h a t h a s a lr e a d y b e e n r e g i s te r e d a n d w h e n y o u a c t u a l ly g o to C I P C a n d t h a t p a r ti c u l a r i n d iv id u a l th a t p r o v i d e d t h a t d e t a i ls b e c o m e s a d ir e c t o r. 20 S o w h e n w e a c t u a l ly f o r m e d th is c o m p a n y t h e n t h e y – t h e id e a w a s t o – th e i d e a w a s t o l e t u s g r o w t h is c o m p a n y t o g e t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . So we were clear at the b e g in n i n g a s f a r a s w h a t is i t th a t w e w a n t e d t o d o . B u t a s ti m e p r o g r e s s e d y o u k n o w a n d w h e n p e o p le w h o r e a lis e t h a t – b e c a u s e – y o u k n o w to a c t u a ll y f o r m a b l a c k a d v is o r y fir m e s p e c ia ll y i n t h e Page 20 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 fi n a n c i a l s e r v ic e s s p a c e i t is v e r y t o u g h c o r e g iv e n t h a t o p p o r t u n i ti e s w e r e f in e b e tw e e n s o i t w a s v e r y t o u g h p e o p le a c t u a l ly w e r e – I m e a n t h e s e g u y s w e r e q u a li f ie d C A’s a l o t o f t h e m . S o t h e y – t h e y w e r e u s e d t o a c tu a lly g e t ti n g a s a la r y a n d s u d d e n l y y o u k n o w t h e i r l iv e s w e r e a c t u a ll y a t r is k . S o t h e r e w a s a c t u a l ly t h a t th in k i n g w h e n w e a c t u a l ly d o i n g t h is in t h e ir m i n d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A n d th e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A n d h e n c e a t th e b e g in n i n g t h i n g s w e r e n o t th a t s tr a i g h t f o r w a r d , c l e a r. CHAIRPERSON: YEs. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: c o n ti n u e w i t h t h is t h i n g . A s to w h e t h e r w e g o i n g t o B e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r w h e n w e s t a r te d t o a c t u a ll y o p e r a t in g a t t h e r e s t a u r a n t y e s it w a s v e r y d i ff ic u l t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u Mr M a h l a n g u . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 And – yes – sorry – sorry t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir I t h i n k I w a s s til l g o in g t h r o u g h t h is y e s b e f o r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l a n g u if w e c a n j u s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s h e m i g h t w i s h t o h e l p y o u w i t h th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. J u s t b e c a u s e w e m e n ti o n e d t h r e e p e o p l e a n d I w o u ld l ik e t o g e t th e th ir d p e r s o n ’s n a m e c l e a r, w h o w a s Page 21 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h e t h ir d p e r s o n w h o j o in e d y o u ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It is Thuso Sencho. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d y o u s p e l l th a t f o r u s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e S e n c h o o r th e T h u s o ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B o t h p l e a s e j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It is T – I mean Thuso A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d th e s u r n a m e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : S e n c h o . I t is S e n c h o . S e n c h o . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Sencho. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d w a s h e i n B N P C a p i ta l a t th e ti m e t h a t y o u b i d f o r t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r y s e r v i c e s t e n d e r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No Thuso was not. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t f in a lly o n t h is p o in t I k n o w y o u d o w a n t t o r e t u r n i n t e r m s o f fi d u c ia r y r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s t o t h e c o m p a n y o n ly y o u h a d t h o s e , is t h a t c o r r e c t a s i ts s o le d i r e c t o r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: As fa r a s – o b v i o u s l y t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a s f a r a s t h e c o m p a n y la w is c o n c e r n e d I w a s b u t w e w e r e s h a r in g th e m t o g e t [i n d is t in c t ] M r M a t h e b u l a . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t h e w a s n o t a f o r m e r ly a p p o i n te d d ir e c t o r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I f y o u w o u l d l ik e to r e t u r n t o p a r a g r a p h 2 .3 o n p a g e 3 y o u w e r e t a k in g u s t h r o u g h t h a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O n 2 .3 i n e s s e n c e w h a t – t h r o u g h y o u C h a i r – w h a t I w a s b a s i c a ll y s a y in g t h e r e i s I h a v e w o r k e d Page 22 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 w i t h p r o m i n e n t y o u k n o w S o u th A fr ic a n c o m p a n i e s e s p e c i a l ly i n t h e fi n a n c i a l s e r v ic e s s p a c e . I a m i n v o l v e d in p r i v a t e e q u i ty, p r o je c t fi n a n c e , c o r p o r a t e fi n a n c e a n d p r o je c t m a n a g e m e n t a n a l y s i s a n d I h a v e g o t m y e x p e r i e n c e r a n g e s a c r o s s r o a d , tr a n s p o r t , m i n i n g , h e a l t h , e n e r g y a n d o t h e r r e la t e d s e r v ic e s a n d a t b e l o w is i f I c a n ju s t z o o m i n t h e r e o r r a th e r m a y b e j u s t r u n – d is c u s s t h e p o in t b e lo w a s y o u k n o w I started at NEF as a project manager as a senior product manager and t h e n I m o v e d t o P I C a s a l s o a p r o j e c t m a n a g e r th e r e . A n d o n p a g e 4 it is – o n – b a s ic a l ly d e t a i l e d s o m e o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e s th a t o n e a c t u a lly 10 has done. CHAIRPERSON: whatever you c o n tr o v e r s i a l. Yo u – i f y o u w a n t y o u c a n r e a d t h e r e y o u k n o w want to h ig h li g h t there because it is n o th in g I f y o u w a n t t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y b u t if y o u c a n j u s t r u n t h r o u g h i t w i t h o u t d o in g th a t i t is fi n e . I ju s t w a n t t o – y o u t o k n o w t h a t y o u c a n r e a d t h is p a r t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y th a n k y o u C h a ir. S o I w il l ju m p to 2 . 5 n o w y e s . I n 2 . 5 a s I h a v e a c t u a l ly – a s i t h a s a c t u a ll y b e e n in d i c a t e d t h a t o n e h a s b e e n i n v o lv e d i n fi n a n c i a l a d v ic e a n d c a p i t a l r a i s i n g p r o je c t fo r b o t h p u b l ic a n d p r iv a te s e c t o r. A ls o o f i n d iv id u a l a n d 20 a ls o – y o u k n o w – g e t in v o lv e d in p a r tn e r s h i p s w i t h o t h e r e n ti t ie s . F o r in s t a n c e a s I h a v e in d ic a t e d b e l o w h e r e th a t w e h a v e – a s – a s b a s i c a ll y a s a n i n d iv id u a l o n e h a s – y o u k n o w – w o r k e d w i th s o m a n y – y o u k n o w – s o m a n y p r o je c t s e s p e c i a lly th e p u b li c in v e s t m e n t c o r p o r a t io n . If I c a n … CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Mahlangu. Page 23 of 221 I th in k I h a v e a n 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h y y o u s a y o n e a n d n o t I . Yo u r e m e m b e r M s H o f m e y r w a s s a y in g i n p a r t o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u s p e a k i n t h e t h ir d p e r s o n a n d y o u s a y Mr M a h la n g u t h i s M r M a h l a n g u t h a t. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O h , o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: No I am saying I under … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: I think I understand. I may be wrong but I know that – I k n o w w h e n p e o p le p u t it th a t w a y t h e y d o n o t w a n t to s a y I b e c a u s e it is l ik e y o u a r e s a y i n g t h is is h o w g o o d y o u a r e . 10 T h i s is a l l t h e experience you have. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. I u n d e r s t a n d y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: M y o w n i m p r e s s i o n i s – is w h e n p e o p l e d o t h a t is n o r m a l ly b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t w a n t t o b e s e e n to b e tr y in g t o h i g h li g h t h o w g o o d t h e y a r e a n d s o o n b u t I m a y b e m is t a k e n . So I am just s a y in g I k n o w t h a t y o u s a y – y o u s a y o n e – o n e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. N o I u n d e r s ta n d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: But I – I understand yes. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . I w il l tr y and be c o n s i s te n t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t w h e n y o u s a y o n e y o u m e a n y o u r s e l f? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I w i ll tr y a n d s a y I . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . At PIC I was Head of F u n d s m e a n i n g I w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a ll t h e p r iv a t e e q u i ty f ir m s t h a t – y o u k n o w – t h a t y o u s e e – t h a t a r e a c t u a ll y o u t t h e r e . I w a s s i t ti n g o n Page 24 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h e A d v is o r y B o a r d s . S o I w o u l d a c t u a ll y g o a n d a tt e n d m e e t i n g s , g iv e u s fe e d b a c k . I f t h e r e is a n y – a n y d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t n e e d s to b e d o n e t h e y w i ll b e s e n t t o m e a n d b a s ic a l ly ( i n d is ti n c t ) m e th a t a s f a r a s d r a w d o w n s a r e c o n c e r n e d a s w e ll a s i n v e s t m e n t th a t n e e d s - th e y n e e d t o b e d e p o s e d o r w h a t e v e r – y o u k n o w – i s s u e s o r m a n a g e m e n t is s u e s t h a t a r e a c t u a l ly g o in g o n in t h a t p a r tic u la r fi r m th e n I w il l a c t u a l ly r u n w i t h t h a t . I j u s t h i g h l ig h te d a f e w o f – o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t I g o t i n v o lv e d i n . I t h in k f o r t h e s a k e o f – o f th is p a r t ic u l a r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : E x e r c is e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I w a s a ls o i n v o l v e d u n w i n d i n g o f 2 4 b i ll io n M T N s c h e m e w h ic h b a s ic a l ly w e r u n a l o n g to g e th e r w i t h N e d b a n k a n d A l l e n b y w h e r e t h e y a c t u a l ly r e m a i n o u r s p o n s o r a n d – a n d a n a d v i s o r t o – t o M T N – to M T N a n d a l s o r e fi n a n c i n g o f ( i n d is ti n c t ) w h e n I w a s a c t u a lly a l s o i n v o lv e d . I w a s a ls o B o a r d D ir e c t o r o f t h a t . I s a t a s a D ir e c t o r r e p r e s e n ti n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e P I C o n t h a t 20 p a r t ic u l a r t r a n s a c t io n b u t o v e r a n d a b o v e th a t I w a s in v o lv e d i n s o many of these tr a n s a c ti o n s m e a n in g in the corporate f in a n c e tr a n s a c ti o n in th e P I C s i d e in th e p r o je c t f in a n c e tr a n s a c t io n s I w a s a c t u a ll y a ls o i n v o lv e d i n t h e p r iv a t e tr a n s a c t io n s . I m e a n s o m e o f t h e m a r e h u g e tr a n s a c ti o n s I c a n m e n t i o n b u t Page 25 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 I th in k f o r t h e s a k e o f t i m e I w il l j u s t h ig h li g h t t h e s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A n d – y e s a n d I w il l ju m p t o t h e BNP Capital experience … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A n d t h e fir s t w e a c tu a l ly r a is e d t h e f u n d w h i c h is u p a n d r u n n i n g a s w e s p e a k . It is a h e a l th f u n d w h ic h w e a s s is t e d t o r a i s e 1 .7 b i ll io n . I ju s t h ig h li g h t f e e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 M r M a h l a n g u I d o a p o l o g is e . I t is j u s t fa ir l y i m p o r t a n t f o r u s t o u n d e r s ta n d w h e th e r t h is e x p e r i e n c e w a s o b t a i n e d p r i o r t o o r a f t e r y o u r b i d fo r t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s in M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . S o c o u ld w e g o t h r o u g h e a c h o f th e m ? Th e o n e y o u h a v e j u s t r e fe r e n c e d a t p a r a g r a p h 2 .5 . 2 . 1 r a is i n g c a p i t a l f o r h e a l t h fu n d o f a p p r o x i m a te ly 1 .7 b i ll io n . W h e n d i d B N P C a p it a l a c q u i r e t h a t e x p e r i e n c e ? Yo u c a n j u s t in d i c a t e b e f o r e o r a ft e r. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t w a s – I n e e d to c o m e b a c k t o i t a s f a r a s th e d a t e s a r e c o n c e r n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Because h i g h l ig h t t h e o n e t h a t I h a v e r e m e m b e r e d v iv i d l y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 26 of 221 – y e s ; b u t I w i ll 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A s fa r a s t h e n a ti o n a l tr e a s u r y 1 6 b i ll io n tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t w e h a v e r a is e d to g e th e r w i t h C i ti b a n k – y e s t h a t w a s b e fo r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e f o r e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A s f a r a s t h e To ta l tr a n s a c ti o n t h e fe w tr a n s a c t io n s th a t w e h a v e d o n e a s a b u s i n e s s t h a t w a s a c t u a ll y 10 r u n n in g c o n c u r r e n tly b e c a u s e y o u c a n a p p r e c ia t e t h a t t h i s – t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n w a s a c t u a l ly in f o r j u r i s d ic ti o n . S o w e h a d t o a c t u a ll y g e t a p p r o v a l – a s p e c ia l c o m p e t i ti o n a p p r o v a l – in f o r j u r is d ic t io n . S o w e a c t u a ll y t o o k e n ti r e t o a c t u a l ly c o m p le t e t h is o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d c o n c u r r e n t ly. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Did you mean? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W h i le w e … CHAIRPERSON: It started before 2016 and went to – into 2016 and beyond or you mean it happened in 2016? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: In 2016. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h a d i t c o m m e n c e d b e f o r e M a r c h 2 0 1 6 ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: March 2016 Page 27 of 221 – because I 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 remember – can I - remember when I was – when we busy with the – t h e S A A a d v is o r y w o r k t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n w e w e r e b u s y w i t h a s w e l l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . So I cannot and now I need to … CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W o u l d y o u s a y it is u n l ik e l y t o h a v e b e e n c o m p le t e d b y M a r c h 2 0 1 6 if i t s ta r t e d i n 2 0 1 6 ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o – y e s i t i s u n l ik e l y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It was – it was completed in D e c e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I f i t s ta r t e d b e f o r e M a r c h o n ly a s m a ll p o r t i o n o f it w o u ld h a v e b e e n d o n e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : M o s t p a r t w o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d a ft e r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I r e m e m b e r i t w a s a c t u a l ly d o n e i n D e c e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f 2 0 1 6 ? CHAIRPERSON: Oh in December 2016? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t w a s c o m p l e t e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s a y d o n e is th a t w h e n it w a s fi n i s h e d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Fi n a n c i a l exchanged hands. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O k a y, a lr ig h t t h a n k y o u . Page 28 of 221 c lo s e - money 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: We also involved as part of our b u s i n e s s w e a c t u a l ly g e t i n v o l v e d w i t h – a s I h a v e in d i c a t e d b e fo r e – i t is e i th e r w it h la w fir m s – w i t h h u g e l a w fir m s o n a p a r tic u la r tr a n s a c ti o n , w i th e n g i n e e r i n g fir m s . W e h a v e d o n e s u c h b e a u t i fu l w o r k e s p e c i a l ly f o r w a t e r t r e a t m e n t p la n ts w i t h a h u g e e n g in e e r in g fir m . W i th a u d i t f ir m s - I t h i n k w e h a v e b e e n a c t u a ll y w o r k i n g t o g e t – I m e a n – o n a la r g e r s c a le w i t h a u d i t fi r m s . W e h a v e b e e n p a r tn e r i n g w i t h t h e m o n m a n y o f t h e p r o j e c ts w e i m p l e m e n te d t h e m t o g e t h e r a n d on … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a j u s t r e m e m b e r t h a t Ms H o f m e y r w a n ts y o u t o … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A l w a y s s a y w h e t h e r i t i s b e fo r e o r a f t e r M a r c h 2 0 1 6 w h e n y o u m e n ti o n e x p e r ie n c e . Where you remember and where you n e e d t o c o m e b a c k to u s y o u c a n m e n ti o n … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . Es p e c ia ll y th is was to now a c t u a ll y b e fo r e t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o h . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Which one are we r e fe r r i n g Mr Mahlangu? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e – t h e a c a d e m ic h o s p it a l. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u h a v e d o n e d o w n t o p a r a g r a p h 2 . 5 .2 . 5 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O h s o r r y. T h e ( in d is ti n c t) o n e w a s – w a s a l s o i n 2 0 1 6 . It w a s r u n n in g c o n c u r r e n tl y t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e Page 29 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 To t a l tr a n s a c t i o n . Th e – t h e o n e 2 . 5 .2 . 5 w a s a ls o a f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w h ic h w a s a c t u a l ly d o n e p r io r t o 2 0 1 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u if I m a y j u s t s t o p y o u th e r e b e c a u s e t h a t is y o u r lis t o f p a r t ic u l a r B N P C a p i ta l e x p e r i e n c e . W h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d in is th a t m o s t o f th e s e – a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e a r e o c c u r r in g c o n c u r r e n tly w i th t h e w o r k o n th e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r y s e r v ic e s f o r S A A o r h a v e b e e n c o m p l e t e d b e fo r e . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : S o m e c o n c u r r e n t ly … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H u h - u h . 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: B u t s o m e is – I t h i n k w h a t I w a n t – I d o n o t w a n t t o d o i s t o a c tu a lly m i s le a d th is C o m m i s s i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: As fa r as th e d a te s are concerned. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A n d I ju s t n e e d t o m a p o u t t h e d a t e s a s to w h e n – s o t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t – t h a t is – t h a t is fi n e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I h a v e n o t fo ll o w e d a s c lo s e ly a s w e – a s I s h o u l d have. Maybe what – what we should do Ms Hofmeyr … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is w e s h o u l d a c t u a l ly g o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex p e r i e n c e o n e b y o n e … Page 30 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y b e fo r e y o u s a y a f t e r b e fo r e a f t e r. W h e n y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r y o u s a y I w il l c o m e b a c k . I w i ll b a c k to y o u o n that … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly y e s . CHAIRPERSON: But where you can remember you tell us before or a ft e r o r d u r i n g 2 0 1 6 b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t a n d s o m e a r e d u r i n g 2 0 1 6 . O k a y I th in k l e t u s d o i t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I a m i n d e b t e d . I a m i n d e b t e d f o r th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d m a y b e I s h o u l d j u m p a h e a d . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t w e – w e u n d e r s t a n d w h y th is is o f s o m e importance. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u w h e n y o u b i d fo r th e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r y s e r v ic e s t e n d e r a t S A A I h a v e n o t s e e n i n t h a t b i d a n y o f t h is 20 e x p e r i e n c e r e fe r r e d t o a n d t h a t is w h y i t i s o f s o m e i m p o r t a n c e f o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r y o u h a d t h e e x p e r ie n c e b e f o r e a n d it w a s n o t r e f e r e n c e d i n t h e b i d i n w h i c h c a s e w e w i ll e x p l o r e t h a t f u r th e r o r w h e t h e r th is is e x p e r i e n c e y o u c o u l d n o t h a v e r e f e r e n c e d i n t h e b i d b e c a u s e y o u a c q u ir e d i t o n ly a ft e r M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . S o in f a ir n e s s t o y o u th a t i s w h e r e t h e q u e s ti o n c o m e s fr o m . Page 31 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I understand. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o l e t u s w i t h t h a t in m i n d l o o k a t e a c h o f t h e m . L e t u s g o b a c k to p a g e 4 i f w e m a y. W e s t a r t a t t h e b o tt o m . Yo u d e t a i l a t p a r a g r a p h 2 .5 . 2 .1 B N P C a p i t a l ’s e x p e r i e n c e in r a is i n g c a p it a l f o r a h e a lt h f u n d o f a p p r o x i m a t e l y 1 . 7 b il li o n . D i d y o u h a v e t h a t b e f o r e March 2016? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Th r o u g h y o u C h a i r a s I h a v e in d i c a t e d I ju s t n e e d to a c t u a ll y f i n a ll y c h e c k t h e d a te s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll c h e c k a n d c o m e b a c k ? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l m a k e a n o t e , t h a n k y o u . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s ; o r m a y b e w h a t I c a n d o is I – I w o u l d a c t u a l ly v e r i f y i t is m a y b e d u r i n g t h e b r e a k . CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: So that … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Yo u k n o w – w e d o n o t d e l a y. CHAIRPERSON: I … 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k p r o b a b ly y o u w i ll s p e n d t h e w h o l e d a y w i t h u s . S o d u r i n g t h e t e a b r e a k o r d u r in g th e l u n c h b r e a k … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u c a n c h e c k i f y o u a r e a b le t o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I h a v e g o t n o d i ffic u lt y w i th t h a t … . Page 32 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d m a y b e w e l e a v e th is p a r a g r a p h t h e n s o w e c a n g e t c l a r i ty a f t e r th e b r e a k … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fr o m M r M a h la n g u . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t - th a t i s f in e . S o … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t o b e c l e a r w h a t w e a r e in t e r e s t e d in . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 It is p a r a g r a p h 2 . 5 .2 . E a c h o f t h e fiv e b i ts o f e x p e r i e n c e th a t a r e l is te d t h e r e a s B N P C a p i ta l e x p e r i e n c e . I f y o u w i ll a s s is t u s a f t e r th e b r e a k t o t e l l u s w h ic h o f t h a t e x p e r ie n c e B N P C a p i t a l h a d p r i o r t o M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . W e w i ll b e in d e b t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n o th e r w o r d s w e le a v e t h is p a r t o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e f o r n o w. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : F o r n o w. CHAIRPERSON: S o t h a t y o u a r e a b l e d u r in g t h e b r e a k t o c h e c k w h a t e v e r i n f o r m a ti o n y o u n e e d a n d th e n s o th a t w h e n w e c o m e b a c k t o it y o u h a v e th e i n f o r m a ti o n . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a g r e e w it h y o u . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l d e a l w i t h i t l a t e r, j a . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d th e n a t t h a t p a g e s ti ll p a g e 5 a t p a r a g r a p h 2 .5 . 3 a s I h a v e i t y o u r e fe r e n c e v a r i o u s p a r t n e r i n g s w i th c o m m e r c ia l b a n k s o n v a r i o u s p r o j e c ts . C h a ir w i th y o u r l e a v e I a m g o i n g t o s u g g e s t t h e s a m e a p p r o a c h b e t a k e n th e r e . Page 33 of 221 Th a t w e ju s t 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 e n a b l e Mr M a h la n g u t o g e t c la r i ty o v e r t h e b r e a k a s t o w h ic h … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ex p e r i e n c e w a s b e f o r e o r a ft e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n M r M a h l a n g u I w o u l d l ik e t o ta k e y o u – if I m a y – b e f o r e w e g e t i n to m o r e o f t h e d e t a i l o f t h e e n g a g e m e n t w i th S A A t o t h e a c t u a l b i d th a t B N P C a p i t a l s u b m i t t e d fo r t h e t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s . Yo u w o u ld h a v e h e a r d fr o m m y in tr o d u c t i o n t h is m o r n i n g I h a v e a tt e m p t e d t o c o l l a t e t h e v a r io u s p a r ts 10 o f th a t b id i n to o n e d o c u m e n t a n d y o u w il l f in d i t in th e s o f t f il e i n fr o n t o f y o u a n d C h a i r a s w e i n d ic a t e d e a r l ie r n o n e e d to e n t e r t h i s i n t h e r e c o r d . I t i s j u s t g o i n g to b e f o r o u r c o n v e n i e n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t t o o r i e n t a te e v e r y o n e C h a ir th e – t h e p a g in a ti o n a n d M r M a h la n g u t h e p a g i n a ti o n in th e to p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r o f e a c h p a g e i s e i t h e r g o in g t o r e f e r e n c e a p a g e p r e c e d e d b y P N w h ic h is a r e f e r e n c e t o M s N h a n t s i ’s b u n d l e w h ic h is E X H I B I T D D 2 o r i t is g o i n g t o r e fe r e n c e C A S S w h ic h is a r e f e r e n c e t o a p a g i n a te d p a g e o f M s S ti m p e l’s b u n d l e w h i c h is D D 1 … 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t b e c a u s e w e a l t e r n a t e b e tw e e n t h e m i n th is d o c u m e n t I a m a c t u a ll y g o i n g to a s k - i f I m a y - t h a t b o t h o f y o u l o o k a t t h e b o tt o m o f t h e p a g e b e c a u s e w h a t is u s e f u l t h e r e is y o u g e t o n t h e b o t t o m r ig h t h a n d s i d e p a g e 1 o f 5 5 … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. Page 34 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a g e 2 o f 5 5 . T h a t i s – t h a t r e f e r e n c i n g is h o w I h a v e b e e n a b le t o c o m p il e t h is fr o m t h e t w o s o u r c e s a n d s o th e r e fe r e n c e I w i ll u s e f o r n o w I w il l a lw a y s g iv e th e p a g i n a t e d r e f e r e n c e C h a ir f o r t h e r e c o r d b u t i n o r d e r f o r u s n a v ig a t e I w i ll a s k y o u t o g o fo r e x a m p l e to p a g e 1 5 o f 5 5 a n d th e n w e w i ll fi n d i t fa ir l y e a s ily. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. I – I t h o u g h t if y o u s i m p le s a i d s o m e t h i n g lik e CASS 3-7-3. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t i s n o t a s e a s y C h a ir b e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t r u n 10 s e q u e n ti a l ly i n C A S S . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t s o , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I – I e n d e a v o u r to d o i t th is m o r n i n g m y s e l f … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I r e a lis e d th e e a s ie r r e f e r e n c e is a t t h e bottom … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I w i ll a l w a y s g i v e fo r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t th e p a g i n a te d p a g e r e f e r e n c e is . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e t o p , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o j u s t t h a t w e c a n f i n d it a b i t m o r e e a s ily. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h la n g u a s I h a v e it t h e r e a r e v a r io u s parts of the bid that BNP Capital put together that you signed and I Page 35 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 w o u ld l ik e t o t a k e y o u t o t h o s e p a r t s t h a t y o u a p p e n d e d w h a t I ta k e to b e y o u r s i g n a t u r e to . T h e f ir s t o n e y o u w i l l f i n d a t p a g e 2 0 o f 5 5 i n th a t p a c k i n fr o n t o f y o u . S o i f y o u g o to p a g e 2 0 o f 5 5 i t s r e f e r e n c e f o r th e r e c o r d is C - A - S- S - 3 - 9 - 1 . D o y o u s e e t h a t M r M a h l a n g u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n y o u c o n f i r m th a t t h a t is y o u r s i g n a t u r e on that page? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t i s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s is a d e c la r a ti o n i f y o u g o b a c k th e - a 10 p a g e p r e v i o u s w h i c h is i n fa c t f o r th e p a g in a te d r e c o r d t o b e f o u n d a t P - N - 2 - 1 - 2 b u t o n t h e i n te r n a l r e f e r e n c i n g i t i s p a g e 1 9 o f 5 5 . T h a t is a d e c l a r a ti o n o f i n t e r e s t. W e w il l l o o k a t i t i n d u e c o u r s e b u t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s I j u s t w a n te d to c o n fir m y o u h a v e s ig n e d t h a t d e c l a r a t i o n o f in t e r e s t o n b e h a l f o f B N P C a p i t a l . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h e n e x t o n e I w o u l d lik e t o t a k e y o u to is p a g e 2 7 o f 5 5 a n d f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f th e r e c o r d t h a t a p p e a r s in P - N - 2 - 1 - 6 w h ic h is a r e f e r e n c e t o M s N h a n ts i’s b u n d l e D D 2 . A g a i n I see a signature there Mr Mahlangu. Is that your signature? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t i s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e it y o u a r e c o n f ir m i n g t h e b a n k d e ta il s o f B N P C a p i ta l t h e r e . H a v e I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t … ? CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. I th i n k t h e r e a r e t w o s i g n a tu r e s o n t h a t page. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A h , in d e e d . Page 36 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is o n e – o r a c tu a ll y t h e r e a r e t h r e e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e - t h e r e is th e f ir s t o n e i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r – s o o n a ft e r t h e f ir s t d a te s t a m p t h e r e . T h e n t h e r e i s o n e i n t h e m i d d l e . T h e r e is o n e a t th e b o t t o m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s h o u l d h a v e b e e n m u c h m o r e p r e c is e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If we can go through them Mr Mahlangu. Do y o u s e e th e o n e u n d e r t h e s ta m p o f t h e b a n k w h i c h s a y s s i g n a t u r e b a n k o ffic i a l ? D o y o u s e e th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I t i s my s i g n a t u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll l e t u s g o a b o v e – i f w e m a y. D o y o u s e e t h e s t a m p i n t h e m i d d l e o f th e p a g e r e f e r e n c i n g 4 M e r c h a n t P la c e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 D o y o u s e e b e lo w t h e r e – th e r e is a l in e t h a t s a y s i n i ti a ls a n d s u r n a m e b a n k o ff ic i a l? D o y o u s e e t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t is r e f e r e n c e d t h e r e ? What appears o n t h a t li n e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n a m e t h a t is w r it t e n t h e r e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Yo u m e a n f o r th e – f o r t h e b a n k Page 37 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 o ffic i a l ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s P M ( in d is ti n c t) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a n d b e lo w th a t th e r e a p p e a r s t o b e a s p a c e f o r a s i g n a t u r e o f a b a n k o ffic i a l . D o y o u s e e t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h e s i g n a t u r e t h a t a p p e a r s o n th a t li n e y o u r s ig n a tu r e ? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: As far – the bank? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . W e a r e j u s t tr y i n g to g e t … C H A I R P E R S O N : In i ti a l ly y o u s a i d y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h y s h e i s g o i n g b a c k to tr y a n d h e l p y o u … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Oh. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e s h e r e a li s e s y o u d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I k n o w – y o u a n d I Mr M a h l a n g u w e n t s tr a ig h t f o r y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n th e p a g e b u t … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e C h a ir h a s p o i n te d o u t w i t h r e s p e c t e n t ir e ly Page 38 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 c o r r e c t ly t h a t th e r e a r e t h r e e s i g n a tu r e s o n t h is p a g e . S o w e a r e j u s t tr y i n g t o g e t f o r c l a r i ti e s p u r p o s e s … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h i s y o u r s a n d w h ic h th e s ig n a tu r e s o f o th e r s a r e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a s I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e u n d e r t h e li n e s ig n a tu r e o f b a n k o ff ic ia l th a t is n o t y o u r s i g n a t u r e . C o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Correct. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n s li g h tly b e l o w t h a t u n d e r t h e li n e th a t says: “ Te l e p h o n e n u m b e r b a n k o ff ic i a l. ” T h e r e is th e n a n e n tr y t h a t s a y s : “Signature.” A n d t h e n t h e r e is a s p a c e a n d t h e n w h a t is r e c o r d e d i s : “ D u ly a u t h o r is e d t o s i g n o n b e h a l f o f … ” A n d i f y o u c a r r y o n t h e n e x t l in e . “…BN P Capital.” T h e s i g n a t u r e t h a t a p p e a r s o n th a t s ig n a t u r e l i n e is th a t y o u r 20 s ig n a tu r e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t i s my s i g n a t u r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n a t t h e b o tt o m o f t h e p a g e u n d e r a c a p i ta ls h e a d i n g r e a d i n g C O M M I S S I O N E R O F O AT H S t h e r e is t h e n th e th ir d s i g n a t u r e o n t h a t p a g e . Is t h a t y o u r s ig n a tu r e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No Page 39 of 221 C h a ir. I am not a 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 Commissioner of Oaths. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . S o a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h is p a g e – a n d correct me if I am wrong – when you sign at the place that you have id e n t i fi e d a s b e i n g y o u r s i g n a tu r e y o u w e r e d o i n g s o a s th e d u ly a u t h o r i s e d r e p r e s e n t a ti v e o f B N P C a p it a l t o c o n fir m it s b a n k i n g d e t a i ls w h ic h a p p e a r h i g h e r o n t h a t p a g e . Have I understood that page c o r r e c t ly ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d th e n i f w e g o t o p a g e 5 1 o f t h i s 10 pack that page fo r the record w i ll be found in EXHIBIT DD2 M s N h a n t s i ’s b u n d l e a t p a g e 2 - 2 - 7 . I th in k I a m c o r r e c t i n s a y i n g t h e r e is o n ly o n e s i g n a t u r e o n t h i s p a g e . C a n y o u i d e n ti fy M r M a h l a n g u w h e t h e r t h a t is y o u r s i g n a t u r e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t i s . I t i s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Mahlangu agrees with you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : point. Ye s . W e – w e a r e o n th e s a m e p a g e a t t h is Mr Mahlangu if you just go back one page to page 50 of 55 w h ic h f o r t h e r e c o r d w i ll b e f o u n d i n D D 1 – E X H I B I T D D 1 w h ic h is M s S ti m p e l’s b u n d l e a t p a g e 4 - 2 - 1 . 20 Yo u w il l s e e th a t t h a t is a d e c l a r a ti o n o f w h a t is c a l l e d I n d e p e n d e n t B id A d j u d ic a ti o n a n d a s I have it that is what you sign at page 51 of 55 on the internal n u m b e r i n g . C a n y o u c o n fi r m th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r M a h l a n g u b e f o r e w e g o in t o t h e a c t u a l d e t a i ls a b o u t h o w th e w h o l e id e a o f B N P C a p i ta l b i d d i n g f o r t h e Page 40 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 s e r v ic e s a t S A A a r o s e I w o u ld j u s t li k e to c l a r if y B N P C a p i ta l ’s B B B E E s t a tu s i n M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . W h a t l e v e l c o n t r i b u t o r w a s i t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Three. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e v e l t h r e e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u l d th e n l ik e t o l o o k i n s o m e d e t a i l M s M a h l a n g u a t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p t h a t d e v e lo p e d b e t w e e n B N P C a p it a l o n th e o n e h a n d a n d M r M n g a d i a n d I n li n e Tr a d i n g o n th e o t h e r hand … 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d f o r t h a t p u r p o s e I w o u l d l ik e t o t a k e u s – if I m a y - t o p a g e 11 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it . A p o l o g i e s – y o u r s t a te m e n t w h ic h h a s n o w b e e n c o n fir m e d u n d e r o a t h . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: On sometime in February 2016 a g e n tl e m a n b y t h e n a m e o f ( i n d is t in c t ) g a v e m e a c a ll a n d th e n h e s a i d a fr i e n d o f h is w a n te d a c t u a l ly m y d e ta il s fo r – f o r u s t o a c t u a l ly s i t d o w n a n d e x p lo r e i n d o i n g b u s i n e s s to g e th e r a n d t h e n h e – h e a s k e d m e 20 w h e t h e r I c a n a c t u a lly g i v e th is g e n tl e m a n m y – m y e m a il a d d r e s s a n d I t h e n a g r e e d to s a y y o u c a n b e c a u s e I t r u s t e d h i m b e c a u s e w e h a v e a c t u a ll y – w e h a v e b e e n w o r k in g w i th h i m f o r s o m e ti m e b e c a u s e I h a v e a c t u a ll y e v e n w h i le I w a s a t P I C f u n d e d s o m e – s o m e o f th e ir tr a n s a c ti o n s . S o o n 9 F e b r u a r y I t h e n r e c e iv e d a n e m a il a n d t h a t e m a il Page 41 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 says … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m – I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a y o n 9 Fe b r u a r y ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b u t t h e g u y w h o h a d c a ll e d y o u … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A t t h e b e g i n n in g o f F e b r u a r y. CHAIRPERSON: At the beginning? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 O n 9 F e b r u a r y I th e n g o t a c a l l – g o t a n e m a i l a c t u a l ly n o t e v e n a c a l l b e c a u s e h e d i d n o t h a v e m y c o n ta c t d e t a ils . S o t h a t e m a i l is a c t u a ll y - i t r e a d s u n d e r 5 . 2 a n d t h e n ju s t t o s u m m a r is e i t s a y s : “( I n d is t in c t) - a m u tu a l f r i e n d – r e f e r r e d m e to y o u . I w o u l d lik e u s t o a c t u a l ly w o r k j o in – t o g e th e r jo in t ly b y s u b m i t t in g a r e s p o n s e t o t h e TA R F I w h ic h c a m e t o m a r k e t t h is p a s t S u n d a y to p e r f o r m t h is role for SAA. T h e ti m i n g is o f e s s e n c e . Th is R F I c lo s e s n e x t Tu e s d a y w h ic h i s 1 6 S e p t e m b e r. ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O f F e b r u a r y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I m e a n – y e s o f F e b r u a r y s o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s ; a n d – a n d I t h in k w h a t t h e n tr a n s p ir e d t h e n - w i t h o u t a c t u a ll y g o in g w o r d f o r w o r d – w h a t th e n tr a n s p ir e d th e n M r M n g a d i s e n t - s e n t u s a n e m a i l t o g e t h e r w i t h h i s – Page 42 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 w i t h h is d e t a i l . I m e a n b a s ic a l ly i n tr o d u c in g h i m s e l f. CHAIRPERSON: When you say sent us you mean sent you? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o s e n d a n e m a il . CHAIRPERSON: BNP? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s B N P a n e m a i l … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: himself. And b a s ic a l ly in tr o d u c i n g A t t h e s a m e ti m e f o r w a r d e d – f o r w a r d e d a n d R F I w h i c h b a s ic a lly h e – h e g o t f r o m – i f y o u c a n a c t u a ll y g o to - I a m n o t s u r e 10 h o w t h e a p p e n d ix i s a c t u a l ly d o n e h e r e e s p e c i a l ly t h e a n n e x u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ms H o f m e y r w i ll h e l p y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l a n g u I c a n a s s is t y o u . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s p a r t o f m y r o l e to d a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u w o u l d l ik e t o g o t o t h e f ir s t e m a i l … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h ic h is a t P- D - M - 1 – i t is u n d e r Ta b 1 a n d y o u fi n d i t a t p a g e 5 5 – 5 - 5 . 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 55. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : If y o u f o l lo w u n d e r Ta b 1 y o u s h o u l d fi n d i t i m m e d i a t e ly. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ta b 1 . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, page 55 has been … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h a s b e e n w r it t e n o v e r. Page 43 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n f o r tu n a te ly if y o u g o to t h e n e x t p a g e y o u s e e t h e n e x t p a g e is v e r y c l e a r l y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 5 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t th e ta b s a r e a ls o u s e fu l M r M a h la n g u j u s t t o o r ie n t a te u s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 Ye s . O n – I a m a c t u a ll y o n t h e r e o n – i t i s P- D - M - 0 - 5 - 6 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s a n d – a n d i n e s s e n c e t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir w h a t I w a s t r y i n g t o h i g h li g h t w a s h o w w e a c t u a l ly s u m m a r i s e d th is – t h is e m a i l t h a t h e s e n t t o u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s ; a n d – a n d b a s ic a l ly i n t h e s a m e e m a i l h e a c t u a lly a t ta c h e d e v e n th e R F I t h a t h e a c t u a l ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: That we were supposed to work 20 on … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A n d i f y o u a c t u a l ly – w h a t – w h a t i s i n t e r e s t in g a b o u t t h i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t a n R F I o r a lr e a d y a n R F P ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A n R F I. Page 44 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s s ti ll a n R F I , o k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . What b a s ic a l ly is in t e r e s te d i s a c t u a ll y i f y o u fl ip o v e r t o p a g e 3 y o u c o u l d e v e n t e l l t h a t M r M n g a d i h i m s e l f a c tu a lly p u r c h a s e d t h is R F I. A t t h e b o t t o m it s a y s : “ G o o d d a y s e l le r s , k i n d l y e m a il m e t h e R F P f ir s t . ” C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y - I a m s o r r y. Yo u m i g h t b e t o o f a s t . T h e fir s t e m a i l y o u w a n t e d t o d r a w m y a t te n ti o n t o a t p a g e 5 5 is it t h e t o p o n e o n t h e p a g e o r b o t to m o n e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I t i s P- D M - 0 - 5 - 6 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u a r e o n t h e n e x t p a g e ? J a , o k a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e r e is t h e f ir s t o n e . T h e fir s t one is the … C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e o n e g r e e ti n g y o u a s : “ H i ( i n d is ti n c t) … ” M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s t h a t is fi n e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: “( I n d is ti n c t ) a m u tu a l fr i e n d r e f e r r e d m e t o y o u . ” And then it goes on: 20 “ I w o u l d li k e u s t o a c t u a l ly w o r k to g e th e r jo in t ly b y s u b m i tt i n g a r e s p o n s e t o th e tr a n s a c t io n a d v is o r w h ic h c a m e t o m a r k e t th is p a s t S u n d a y t o p e r fo r m t h is r o le f o r S A A . T h e t i m i n g is o f e s s e n c e . This R F I c lo s e s n e x t Tu e s d a y w h i c h i s 1 6 F e b r u a r y a n d I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u a r e c u r r e n tly in G e o r g e . ” Page 45 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 O k a y. T h a t is a … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: a tt a c h e d under cover here “Below fo r please that fi n d is a tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r R F I f o r y o u r p e r u s a l . W h e n y o u a r e b a c k in S a n d t o n to m o r r o w m o r n in g k in d l y c a n w e m e e t to d i s c u s s t h i s o p p o r t u n i ty ? ” C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I c a n s e e t h a t y e s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 Ye s a n d t h e n I th i n k o n t h e same page at the top that was my response: “ I w o u l d li k e t o a c k n o w le d g e r e c e i p t o f y o u r e m a i l . I a m k e e n f o r u s to s u b m i t a j o i n t b i d o n t h is a s s ig n m e n t . U n f o r tu n a te ly I w il l b e a v a il a b l e o n Thursday morning. I n t h e m e a n t i m e w e w ill s t a r t w o r k i n g o n th e p r o p o s a l . ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : s t a te m e n t a t p a g e 11 . 20 A n d t h e n M r M a h la n g u i f w e g o b a c k t o y o u r I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t y o u d i d th e n m e e t w i t h M r M n g a d i . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: D e fi n i t e ly w e d i d t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld l ik e to a s k s o m e s p e c i f ic q u e s t io n s a b o u t t h a t m e e t in g . W h e n d i d i t o c c u r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: On Page 46 of 221 Thursday as I have 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 m e n ti o n e d i n th is – n o w o n th a t I h a v e to g o b a c k t o t h a t b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e n I r e f e r r e d t o h i m t h a t I w il l b e a v a i la b le b u t o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y w h i c h w a s T h u r s d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t. S o i t is t h e T h u r s d a y a f t e r 9 F e b r u a r y e m a i l is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e r e d i d y o u m e e t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: name of that place? 10 A t t h e – t h e r e is – w h a t is th e L e t m e r e m e m b e r – F a ir l a n d s - a t t h e F a ir la n d s Hotel. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fe ll o w s H o t e l ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s F a ir la n d s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e r e i s t h a t? S o r r y – F a ir la n d s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s F a ir la n d s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. W h e r e i s t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W h e r e is F a ir l a n d s ? I w i ll h a v e to – I know where it is … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : B u t th e a r e a . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the area. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I a m n o t s u r e w h a t i t is c a l le d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d h a v e t o c h e c k , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Yo u j u s t h a v e t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 47 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s F a i r l a n d s B o u ti q u e H o te l . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u c a n g iv e u s t h a t a f te r t h e b r e a k if t h a t is u s e fu l a n d w h o w a s a t t h a t m e e t in g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It was me and him. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t t h e t w o o f y o u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n M r M a h l a n g u i n p a r a g r a p h 5 .4 o n p a g e 11 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t y o u d e t a il w h a t M r M n g a d i to l d y o u a t 10 t h a t m e e ti n g . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h th a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: W h e n w e a c tu a lly m e t w i th M r M n g a d i h e th e n a c tu a lly m e n t io n e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty th a t w a a v a il a b l e a t S A A a n d m i n d y o u a c t u a ll y b e f o r e w e c o u l d e v e n m e e t t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir h e a lr e a d y f o r w a r d e d a n R F I w h i c h I ’v e a c t u a lly a s k e d th e g u y s a t t h e o ff ic e t o l o o k a t it a n d w o r k a n d s e e w h a t is i t t h a t is r e q u ir e d o n t h a t R F I s o t h a t w e c a n tr y a n d c o m p l y a s m u c h a s w e c a n a n d b a s ic a lly h e g a v e u s a b a c k – a s o r t o f a n o v e r v i e w o f th e o p p o r tu n i t y 20 a n d h is e x p e r ie n c e a s f a r a s t h e c li e n t i s c o n c e r n e d , w h i c h i s S A A , s o b a s ic a lly n a r r a te d y o u k n o w s t o r y t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t h e i s y o u k n o w h e is w e ll v e r s e d w i th th e is s u e s t h a t S A A is f a c i n g a n d e v e n s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t h a t w e u n d e r s ta n d c u r r e n tl y t h a t b a s ic a lly S A A is i n t h e c lu t c h e s o f t h e b i g b a n k s t h a t a r e s l o w ly s q u e e z in g i t o u t a s f a r a s y o u k n o w t h e t e r m s o f t h e f u n d in g th a t i s a c t u a l ly S A A t h r o u g h t h o s e b a n k s Page 48 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a n d h e a c tu a lly h a s b e e n – h e c a m e u p w i t h a s o l u ti o n t o a c tu a l ly c o m e t o tr y a n d a s s i s t S A A t o b r e a t h e f ir s t ly b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e b a n k s a c t u a ll y a r e d r i v i n g y o u t o a p o i n t o f i n s o lv e n c y a s w e c u r r e n t ly k n o w t h e s t a t u s o f S A A a s w e s p e a k n o w a n d a ls o h e in h e r i t e d h i s a c t u a l u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e a v ia t io n s p a c e , a n d b a s ic a l ly g a v e u s s o r t o f a d e e p u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f s o m e o f t h e i s s u e s w h a t n e e d s to b e d o n e a n d h o w t h o s e th i n g s n e e d s t o b e d o n e a n d b a s e d o n o u r d is c u s s i o n h e t h e n m e n ti o n e d y o u k n o w a c o m p a n y .. .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l u n g u if y o u d o n ’ t mi n d j u s t b e f o r e y o u 10 g e t t o t h e c o m p a n y I h a v e a f e w f o l lo w u p q u e s t io n s in r e la t io n to w h a t y o u ’v e s a id , d id y o u e n q u i r e fr o m M r M n g a d i h o w h e h a d a c q u ir e d t h a t w e a lt h o f e x p e r i e n c e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o t n e c e s s a r il y, I d id n ’t a c t u a lly, I t h i n k i n o u r s p a c e if I m e e t t h e – I t h i n k i t ’s b u s in e s s e n tr e p r e n e u r s , i f I m e e t s o m e o n e w h o s a y s to m e h e i s a c t u a l ly a m in e r a n d th e b a s is o f t h a t , a n d t h a t m i n e r w a s a c tu a lly r e f e r r e d b y a n o t h e r m i n e r t o m e w h o I a c t u a ll y tr u s t a n d I’ v e w o r k e d w i t h o n s o m a n y m i n i n g tr a n s a c ti o n s i f t h e y c o m e a n d a c t u a lly p r e s e n t a s t o r y t o m e a n d I w il l a c tu a l ly b e li e v e i t o n t h e b a s is o f w h o r e f e r r e d t h a t p e r s o n t o m e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n d e r s t o o d , I’ m n o t s u g g e s t i n g a t th a t p o in t t h a t y o u w e r e n ’ t t o b e l ie v e i t , I ’ m a s k i n g w h a t i n f o r m a t io n y o u h a d a t t h e ti m e o f t h a t m e e ti n g b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u s a i d h e i n f o r m e d y o u , t h is is a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 4 , o f h is l o n g s ta n d i n g c li e n t c o n s u lt a n t r e la t i o n s h ip w i t h S A A . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . Page 49 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t I w o u l d j u s t l ik e t o u n d e r s ta n d d id y o u p r o b e t h a t a n y fu r t h e r d id y o u p r o b e w h a t tr a n s a c ti o n s h e h a d b e e n in v o lv e d i n w i th S A A , in w h a t c a p a c it y, h o w h e h a d c o m e t o a c q u i r e a ll of this knowledge? C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d li k e w h a t d o y o u d o f o r a li v i n g , w h a t d o y o u d o , t h a t k in d o f t h i n g . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s , th r o u g h y o u C h a ir i t ’s u n f o r t u n a t e b e c a u s e in o u r s p a c e w e n e e d s o m a n y p e o p le a n d i t d e p e n d s o n h o w t h a t i n d i v i d u a l y o u k n o w – h o w y o u m e e t th a t 10 p a r t ic u l a r i n d iv id u a l . F o r i n s ta n c e i f I m e e t s o m e o n e o n t h e s tr e e t a n d t h e n t h e y s ta r t t e l li n g m e a b o u t t h i n g s t h a t t h e y a r e g o o d a t a n d o p p o r t u n i ti e s th a t t h e y ’v e g o t a n d t h e y w a n t m y p a r tic i p a t io n o r b u s i n e s s p a r t ic i p a ti o n I w o u l d d e fi n i t e l y p r o b e f u r th e r, b e c a u s e I’ v e n e v e r s e e n , n o o n e h a s r e fe r r e d m e t o t h i s p a r ti c u l a r i n d i v i d u a l, b u t in o u r i n v e s t m e n t a n d a d v i s o r y s p a c e it ’s a q u e s t io n o f r e f e r r a l , if s o m e o n e , I m e a n w e g e t r e fe r r a ls o n a d a i ly b a s i s , a n d I w o u l d m e e t p e o p l e , b i g c l i e n ts th a t I w il l s i t i n fr o n t o f t h e m , b e c a u s e s o m e o n e h a s r e fe r r e d m e to t h e m , t h e y w o u ld n ’ t a s k m e w h a t is i t th a t I h a v e d o n e , t h e y w o u l d ju s t s a y y o u ’ v e g o t a n o p p o r t u n i ty h e r e , p l e a s e c o m e u p 20 w i t h a s o lu t io n , l e t’s m o v e fo r w a r d . S o i t ’s n o t t h e n a t u r e o f o u r b u s in e s s w h e r e w e a c tu a lly q u e s t io n , i f fo r in s ta n c e I ju s t m e t h i m o n th e s tr e e t d e f in i te ly I w o u l d h a v e a s k e d th a t p a r t ic u l a r q u e s t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o b u t y o u a s s u m e d th a t Ms H o f m e y r w a n t s t o c r i ti c is e y o u , a ll s h e w a n t e d is w h e t h e r b y a n y c h a n c e y o u m i g h t h a v e Page 50 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a s k e d c e r t a i n q u e s t i o n s to M r M n g a d i b u t y o u s a y t h is p a r t ic u l a r t y p e o f q u e s t io n y o u d id n o t a s k , a n d y o u h a v e e x p l a i n e d w h y y o u d id n o t a s k . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s j u s t to a d d t h a t t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, I t h i n k w h a t I’ m tr y i n g t o h i g h l i g h t w a s w h e n M r M n g a d i w a s r e fe r r e d t o u s h e w a s r e f e r r e d b y a v e r y r e l i a b le fr ie n d a n d a p a r t n e r a n d a g u y w h o h a s g o t m a s s iv e e x p e r i e n c e i n th e d e a l m a k i n g s p a c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d th a t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . Yo u h a v e t o ld u s th a t b e c a u s e o f th e p e r s o n w h o r e fe r r e d Mr M n g a d i t o y o u , y o u r e g a r d e d M r M n g a d i a s s o m e b o d y t h a t y o u c o u l d d e a l w i th a n d y o u w e r e n o t g o i n g to n e c e s s a r i ly a s k c e r t a i n q u e s t io n s , a t l e a s t a t th a t t i m e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I g u e s s y o u ’r e r i g h t C h a ir, I t h i n k a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e h e – w h e n w e a c t u a ll y s a t d o w n h e j u s t g a v e a w h o le o f a v i e w o f t h e is s u e s a n d s o m e o f th e is s u e s w h i c h b a s ic a l ly w e r e w e l l d o c u m e n te d i n t h e n e w s a r t ic le s w h ic h w e a l l k n e w a b o u t w i th t h e is s u e s .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o , n o I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a t l e a s t a t t h i s s ta g e Ms H o f m e y r i s n o t n e c e s s a r i l y s e e k in g to c r i ti c i s e y o u f o r 20 n o t a s k i n g . I’ m tr y i n g t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e m a k e p r o g r e s s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e w a s ju s t a s k i n g d i d y o u a s k h i m s u c h a n d s u c h a q u e s t io n . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: N o , I d i d n ’ t C h a ir. A n d i f y o u d i d n ’ t y o u s a y n o I d i d n ’ t , if s h e t a k e s i t Page 51 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 f u r th e r y o u c a n t h e n j u s t if y y o u r s e l f if i t ’s n e c e s s a r y b u t i f n o t y o u j u s t a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a n k s f o r g u i d a n c e C h a ir, thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, w e ’r e in d e b t e d . D i d y o u a s k Mr Mngadi where he was employed? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No I didn’t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r t e s t i m o n y y o u d i d 10 h o w e v e r l e a v e th a t m e e t in g w it h a n u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t h e h a d a l o n g s t a n d in g c li e n t o r c o n s u l t a n t r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h S A A , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A n d I a ls o u n d e r s t o o d f r o m y o u r e v id e n c e a m o m e n t a g o t h a t h e h a d p a r ti c u l a r k n o w l e d g e o f th e a v i a ti o n s p a c e , is that correct? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A n d h e a ls o s p o k e to y o u a s I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h e u n f a v o u r a b le t e r m s t h a t b a n k s w e r e le n d i n g t o S A A a t t h e t i m e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u p r o b e h o w h e h a d k n o w l e d g e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No I didn’t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . A n d n o w t h e r e w ill b e a f o ll o w u p q u e s t io n , d id y o u n o t d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y t o f in d o u t h o w h e w o u l d h a v e t h a t p a r t ic u l a r i n f o r m a ti o n w h i c h o r d i n a r ily w o u ld b e c o n fi d e n t ia l t o Page 52 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 S A A , t h e t e r m s o n w h ic h b a n k s a r e l e n d i n g to i t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, I th i n k i t ’s – a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d b e f o r e i t ’s th e n a t u r e o f o u r b u s i n e s s , i f s o m e o n e c o m e s t o y o u a n d b a s ic a lly s a y s I a m in v o lv e d w i t h a p a r ti c u l a r c l i e n t a n d t h e y g iv e y o u a n o v e r v ie w o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r c l i e n t a n d a d e e p u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e i s s u e s , u n f o r t u n a t e l y w h e n w e d o b u s in e s s w e d o n ’t d o b u s i n e s s w i t h a v i e w t h a t w e ’r e g o in g t o a c t u a l ly a u d i t o u r s e lv e s i n t h e p r o c e s s a n d a s k y o u k n o w t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t y o u a r e a s k in g , b u t i t ’s w h a t’s s u p p o s e d t o b e a c h ie v e d a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e s o 10 w h e n h e g a v e m e t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t o s a y t h is i s – b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e in f o r m a ti o n a s I s a id t h a t w a s a c tu a lly w e ll p u b lic is e d i n th e n e w s a r ti c l e s s o y o u k n o w w e u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h is p e r s o n s a y s th is i s m y c li e n t , i t’s li k e i f s o m e o n e – i f I t e l l s o m e b o d y t h a t I ’v e g o t – t h is i s m y p a r t ic u l a r c l i e n t t h e y k n o w t h a t o k a y f i n e p e r h a p s I ’v e g o t in t i m a te k n o w l e d g e a b o u t th a t c l ie n t , I ’v e w o r k e d w i t h t h a t c li e n t a t s o m e p o i n t , I u n d e r s t a n d s o m e o f th e d e t a il a t l e a s t a s f a r a s t h a t c li e n t is c o n c e r n e d , s o I d id n ’ t a c t u a l ly p r o b e a n y f u r th e r w h e n h e t o l d m e t h a t t h is is th e c li e n t , I j u s t b e li e v e d t h a t w h a te v e r t h a t h e t o ld m e s o I d i d n ’ t a c tu a l ly a s k a n y fu r t h e r. T h a n k y o u . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e le v e l o f i n fo r m a t i o n h e h a d a b o u t t h e c li e n t S A A d i d th a t r a is e a n y c o n c e r n s f o r y o u t h a t h e m a y h a v e b e e n d ir e c t ly c o n n e c t e d t o a n y o n e i n d e c is i o n m a k i n g r o l e a t S A A ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, n o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u d i d n ’ t e n q u ir e a s t o w h e t h e r h e d i d h a v e p e r s o n a l r e la t io n s h ip s w it h a n y o n e a t S A A ? Page 53 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o , b e c a u s e I t h i n k j u s t to a d d o n t h a t a n d t h e l e v e l o f i n fo r m a ti o n th a t h e p r o v i d e d o b v i o u s I t h i n k a t t h is p o in t i n ti m e h e w a s d e a li n g d ir e c t l y w i th th e o ff ic e a n d i n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r o ffi c e I h a d C A’s , I h a d M a s te r s g u y s th a t h a v e g o t y o u k n o w M a s t e r s i n i n v e s t m e n ts a n d b a s ic a l ly w a s d e a l i n g d i r e c t ly w i t h th e m , I w a s n o t a c tu a lly i n v o lv e d a t th a t le v e l . Th e r e w a s a c tu a l ly a h u g e e x c h a n g e o f in f o r m a t io n , h o w e v e r w h e n o n e l o o k s a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r in f o r m a ti o n i t ’s b a s ic a l ly a n a n a ly s is o f y o u k n o w o f w h a t b a s i c a ll y w h a t h e s a id h e a c t u a ll y u n d e r s ta n d s S A A a n d S A A h a s b e e n h is c li e n t s o I 10 w o u ld n ’t a c t u a l ly tr y a n d s e c o n d g u e s s a n d s a y p e r h a p s t h i s is h o w – how d id you a c tu a lly get this in f o r m a ti o n because it was ju s t in f o r m a ti o n t o s a y th is is h o w t h i n g s a r e g o i n g to g o , t h i s is t h e r a te , t h is is th a t , t h is i s t h a t . S o , a n d , a n d , b a s e d , a n d g iv e n , y o u k n o w w h a t h a s a c t u a ll y tr a n s p i r e d n o w I d o n ’ t t h i n k y o u k n o w a s f a r a s t h e li n e o f b u s i n e s s is c o n c e r n e d w e a c t u a lly s c e p ti c a l a b o u t w h o e v e r th a t you deal with. Yo u k n o w m a y b e i t ’s in h in d s ig h t w h e n a n d a l l t h e in f o r m a ti o n i s p r e s e n t e d i n fr o n t o f y o u , o r a c o m m i s s io n o f th is s o r t s t h a t c o m e s to y o u a n d s a y s a c t u a l ly w e ’v e g o t a d i ff e r e n t u n d e r s ta n d i n g b a s e d o n y o u r s , th e n i t’s o n l y t h e n th a t o n e w h o w o u ld a c t u a ll y m o v e 20 b a c k a n d r e v ie w th in g s d i ff e r e n t ly, b u t a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e w e d id n ’t a c t u a lly, w e ’r e not s c e p t ic a l about whatever t h in g s that were h a p p e n in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u Mr M a h l u n g u . C h a ir I s e e w e ’ r e c lo s e t o t h e t e a b r e a k b u t I h a v e o n e f o ll o w - u p q u e s t io n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h is li n e a n d t h e n it m i g h t b e a p p r o p r i a t e . Page 54 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h lu n g u a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e M r M n g a d i l e f t y o u w i t h a c l e a r s e n s e th a t h e h a d a l o t o f e x p e r i e n c e w i t h S A A , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, h e l e f t m e w i t h a c l e a r s e n s e th a t h e u n d e r s t a n d s o u r r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d t h a t S A A h a s b e e n h i s c l ie n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . H e w a s a p p r o a c h i n g y o u t h o u g h a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e to b i d f o r th e t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s 10 t e n d e r, is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: What do you mean, me as an in d i v i d u a l o r a s a c o m p a n y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s , h e h a d a p p r o a c h e d y o u o n t h e e m a il b u t a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t , i t w a s f o r B N P C a p i t a l t o b id f o r t h e te n d e r. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s , th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u e n q u ir e o f h i m i n th is m e e t in g w h e n h e t o l d y o u a b o u t S A A a s h i s c li e n t a n d h is p r e v i o u s e x p e r i e n c e in a v i a ti o n why he didn’t just bid for the tender? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : 20 H e d i d a c t u a ll y m e n ti o n h i s , b e c a u s e I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r w e ’r e g o i n g t o t a lk a b o u t I n l i n e Tr a d in g here. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w is a p p r o p r i a t e , t h a n k y o u M r M a h l u n g u . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s , s o h e d id m e n ti o n t o u s a n I n li n e Tr a d in g C o m p a n y t h a t h e s a i d w e ’r e a c tu a lly g o a n d p a r t n e r w i th , if y o u c a n a c tu a lly g o t h r o u g h t h e s a m e p a g e s , I t h i n k i t ’s P D M – l e t m e Page 55 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 ju s t f a m il ia r is e m y s e l f , w h e r e h e a c tu a lly p r o v i d e d t h a t in f o r m a t io n fo r I n li n e Tr a d in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I c a n fi n d th a t f o r y o u i f y o u ju s t g iv e m e t h e d e s c r ip t io n th e n I k n o w w h a t y o u ’r e r e f e r r i n g t o , it ’s t h e e m a i l i n w h i c h h e d o e s n ’ t w a n t h is n a m e t o a p p e a r i n t h e b i d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , y o u w ill f in d t h a t u n d e r t a b 2 2 a t p a g e 144. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : 2 2 , l e t m e g e t th e r e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l u n g u b e f o r e w e g o t o i t I j u s t w o u ld l ik e t o o r ie n t a te o u r s e lv e s in t i m e , i f w e m a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u fir s t g e t t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n fr o m h i m o n t h e 9 t h o f Fe b r u a r y , c o r r e c t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: D e fi n i t e l y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e n y o u h a v e a m e e ti n g o n t h e n e x t T h u r s d a y a n d t h e n w h a t w e ’r e lo o k in g a t a t p a g e 1 4 4 I u n d e r s ta n d to b e a n e m a il d a t e d 1 3 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u p l e a s e t e l l u s w h a t t h e e m a il c o n ta in s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : T h is e m a i l , t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, t h is e m a il i s a n e m a il t h a t h e s e n t t o , a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h a t I h a r d ly g e t in v o lv e d a t t h e b i d d in g s t a g e , I ’v e g o t a h u g e te a m t h a t is i n v o lv e d , t h e C A’s , t h e M a s t e r s g u y s th a t a c t u a ll y g e t i n v o l v e d . Page 56 of 221 Yo u k n o w m y 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 r e s p o n s i b i li ty a t t h e e n d i s to a c tu a lly e it h e r s i g n o ff o r h a v e a n e n g a g e m e n t w it h o n e o f t h e s e n i o r g u y s t o s e e w h e r e th e is s u e s , h o w c a n w e a c t u a ll y m o v e a r o u n d th o s e is s u e s . S o t h is is t h e e m a il t h a t h e s e n t t o o n e o f t h e g u y s a t t h e o ff ic e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u g i v e u s th e p e r s o n ’s n a m e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t ’s I v a n M o y o a t t h e o ffic e , a n d then he says: “ H i Iv a n , I r e c o m m e n d t h e f o ll o w i n g a m e n d m e n t s . . . ” 10 B e c a u s e w h e n w e a c tu a l ly m e t j u s t t o ti e u p w i th t h e d is c u s s i o n a s f a r a s I n l in e Tr a d i n g h e a c tu a l ly m e n ti o n e d t h a t h e ’s g o t a n e n ti ty c a ll e d I n li n e Tr a d in g a n d h e w i s h e s u s t o a c t u a l l y p a r tn e r w i t h th a t e n ti ty. S o a s t i m e p r o g r e s s e d th e n t h e o ff ic e , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s h is d e t a i ls w a s a c t u a l ly i n t h e b i d d o c u m e n t , s o a s t i m e p r o g r e s s e d s o h e s e n d s t h is e m a il to o n e o f t h e e m p l o y e e s o n S a tu r d a y a n d th e n h e s a y s : “ H i Iv a n , I r e c o m m e n d t h e f o ll o w i n g a m e n d m e n t s . . . ” A n d u n f o r tu n a te ly I w a s n o t e v e n c c ’ d o n t h i s , I ju s t g o t a n e m a il , a c t u a ll y f o r m y – I j u s t g o t t h is – th r o u g h y o u C h a ir, g iv e n t h is 20 c o m m i s s io n I j u s t g o t th is fr o m Iv a n , I th i n k a b o u t t w o w e e k s a g o . CHAIRPERSON: About two weeks ago? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s , tr y i n g to p r e p a r e f o r t h i s to s a y I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t g e t i n v o lv e d r ig h t a t t h e b o tt o m w h e r e th i n g s a r e d o n e b u t w h a t h a s a c t u a ll y happened. Page 57 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s , a n d th e n h e a c t u a lly h a d t o s e n d m e , c o m e u p w i t h t h i s e m a il . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : S o t h is e m a i l s a y s p l e a s e d e l e te t h e r e fe r e n c e to m y ( i n d is t in c t) i n i ts e n t ir e t y a n d in i t s p la c e k in d ly in c l u d e Br e n d a n Ki n g . P l e a s e in c l u d e t h e f o l lo w in g a s t h e c o m p a n y p r o f il e o f I n l in e Tr a d in g L i m i te d C o m p a n y p r o f il e , I c a n n o t i n s e r t a s t h e d o c u m e n t y o u s e n t i s a r e a d - o n ly d o c u m e n t . 10 I n l i n e Tr a d i n g w h ic h i s Te n Pr o p e r t y L i m it e d e x p e r ti s e in f u n d s m a n a g e m e n t s o b a s i c a ll y h e w a s g iv in g u s a n o v e r v i e w o f th e In li n e Tr a d i n g w h i c h is i n fu n d m a n a g e m e n t , a u t o m o t iv e a n d th e a v i a ti o n s e c t o r. In li n e Tr a d i n g e x p e r t is e a n d tr a c k r e c o r d h a s b e e n ( i n d is ti n c t ) f o r a p e r i o d o f in e x c e s s o f te n y e a r s . S o I j u s t w a n te d t o a c t u a ll y h i g h l ig h t t o y o u C h a ir t o s a y t h i s is h o w I a c tu a l ly g o t , w e g o t in v o lv e d w i t h I n l in e Tr a d i n g a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t a n d w h a t i n f o r m a ti o n w a s e x c h a n g e d d u r i n g th a t p a r t ic u l a r c o u r s e , w h e n t h e t e n d e r w a s a c t u a ll y p u t t o g e t h e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l u n g u th a n k y o u f o r th a t , I d o j u s t w a n t t o r o u n d o ff o n m y q u e s ti o n w h ic h w a s d i d y o u p r o b e w i th h i m w h y h e 20 w a s n ’ t t h r o u g h h is e n ti ty, n o w w e u n d e r s t a n d i t t o b e I n l i n e Tr a d i n g , t e n d e r i n g i ts e lf f o r t h i s tr a n s a c t io n a d v i s o r y s e r v i c e s te n d e r b e c a u s e h e t o l d y o u a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e m e e ti n g b y t h a t p o i n t a b o u t e x t e n s iv e e x p e r i e n c e t h a t h e a n d h is c o m p a n y h a d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: H e a c t u a l ly d i d m e n t io n i t , t h e fir s t p o i n t, t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, h e s a i d h e w a s l o o k i n g f o r a c r e d i b l e Page 58 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a d v is o r y fir m t h a t h a d m a s s iv e e x p e r i e n c e in t h e i n v e s t m e n t s p a c e , w i t h a tr a c k r e c o r d th a t is n e c e s s a r y, w i t h e x p e r t is e , w i t h e x e c u ti o n a n d c a p a b il it i e s s o h e n c e h e w a n t e d to p a r t n e r w i t h u s . O n th e o t h e r h a n d y o u k n o w a s h e m e n ti o n e d i n t h e e m a il h e w a s g o i n g t o b r i n g in y o u k n o w t h e a v ia t i o n e x p e r t is e , w h i c h is w h a t is r e q u ir e d a s fa r a s t h i s p a r t ic u l a r R F I w a s r e q u i r e d a n d b a s ic a l ly th o s e t w o , i f y o u p u t th o s e t w o c o m p a n i e s t o g e t h e r t h e n w e c a n a c tu a lly b e c o m p l ia n t a s fa r a s t h e r e q u e s t f o r i n fo r m a t i o n is c o n c e r n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I h a v e a n u m b e r o f f o ll o w u p 10 q u e s t io n s , b u t w e s h o u l d p r o b a b ly t a k e t h e b r e a k a n d th e n w e c a n d e a l w i t h t h e m a f te r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e w i ll t a k e th e te a b r e a k a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t w e n ty fi v e t o t w e l v e . W e a d jo u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Ready? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Thank you. C h a ir I k n o w w e a s k e d M r M a h l a n g u t o g e t u s s o m e i n fo r m a ti o n o v e r t h e b r e a k b u t m y p r o p o s a l is t h a t w e d e a l w i t h t h a t w h e n i t b e c o m e s p e r t i n e n t a g a in a n d w h e n w e lo o k a t th e b id s o t h a t w e c a n c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e t o p ic w e l e ft o n j u s t b e f o r e th e b r e a k . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is f in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W i t h y o u r le a v e . Page 59 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is f in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u b e f o r e t h e b r e a k w e h a d e n d e d o n y o u r t e s t i m o n y t h a t I u n d e r s t o o d to b e e x p la in i n g to u s w h a t Mr M n g a d i h a d r e la y e d t o y o u w a s h is p l a n f o r th i s p a r t n e r s h i p b e t w e e n I n l in e Tr a d in g a n d B N P C a p it a l , is t h a t c o r r e c t? I f y o u w il l j u s t t u r n i t o n y e s p r e s s t h a t b u tt o n i n fr o n t o f y o u . T h a t is p e r f e c t . T h a n k y o u . A n d M r M a h l a n g u w e c a n p ic k t h a t u p a t p a g e 1 2 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t . A n d I h a v e 10 it t h a t a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 5 o n t h a t p a g e y o u s t a r t t o e x p l a i n p r e c i s e ly w h a t we were exploring before the break. T h e s e n t e n c e in tr o d u c i n g t h a t paragraph reads: “ T h e n a tu r e o f t h e jo i n t v e n tu r e t o b e f o r m e d w a s o n t h e b a s i s o f th e fo ll o w i n g c o n s i d e r a t io n s . ” A n d a t 5 .5 . 1 y o u w r it e t h e r e : “That Mr Mngadi was approaching myself and BNP C a p it a l o n t h e b a s i s o f m i n e a n d t h e c o m p a n y ’s e x p e r i e n c e in th e fi n a n c i a l a d v is o r y a n d c a p i t a l r a i s i n g f ie l d . ” 20 I w o u l d lik e t o s t o p th e r e j u s t s o th a t w e c a n e x p l o r e t h a t b a s i s f o r t h e partnership if we may? E x p la in t o m e M r M a h l a n g u w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e R F I a t t h e t i m e ? W h a t s e r v ic e s w a s S A A lo o k i n g for? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. T h e y h a v e r e q u e s t e d a n e n t i ty o r a s e r v ic e p r o v id e r t h a t w o u ld c o m e i n a n d a s s is t Page 60 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h e m a s f a r a s d e b t c o n s o l i d a t io n i s c o n c e r n e d a n d b a s i c a lly d o a n a n a ly s is a s f a r a s t h e fi n a n c i a ls a r e c o n c e r n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d Mr M a h l a n g u d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e r e t o b e a d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n tr a n s a c t io n a d v i s o r y s e r v ic e s a n d s o u r c i n g o f funds or capital raising? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : Ye s th o s e a r e c o m p l e te ly d i ff e r e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y a r e c o m p l e t e ly d i ffe r e n t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Thank you. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e h a d p r e v io u s e v i d e n c e c l a r i fy i n g t h a t it is u s e f u l t o k n o w th a t y o u a n d I o n t h e s a m e p a g e a b o u t th a t . S o t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r y s e r v ic e s t h a t y o u w e r e b i d d in g f o r h a d n o t h i n g t o do with capital raising did it? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e n I j u s t w a n t t o g o b a c k t o w h a t is s a i d a t p a g e 1 2 p a r a g r a p h 5 . 5 . 1 b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u h a v e r e c o r d e d th e r e Mr M n g a d i s a i d h e w a n t e d y o u r a n d B N P C a p it a l’s e x p e r i e n c e in t h e fi n a n c i a l a d v i s o r y a n d c a p i ta l r a is in g fi e l d s . I w o u ld lik e t o p r o b e t h a t f u r th e r. C a p i t a l r a is in g w a s n o t r e l e v a n t th o u g h w a s 20 it ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: As far as the bid was concerned it w a s n o t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o th a t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a r e a s o n f o r t h e t w o e n t i ti e s t o p a r t n e r t h a t e x p e r i e n c e t h a t y o u r c o m p a n y h a d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I w o u l d n o t s a y t h a t th o u g h . Page 61 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 B e c a u s e o u r c o m p a n y b y i ts n a t u r e d o e s b o th . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M r M a g la n g u w e a r e e x p l o r in g w h y M r M n g a d i s u g g e s t e d t h e t w o e n ti ti e s s h o u l d c o m e t o g e t h e r to b id f o r t h i s tender? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : C o r r e c t I u n d e r s ta n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u a c c e p t a t t h a t s t a g e c a p i t a l r a is i n g w a s ir r e l e v a n t . 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a c c e p t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h e s e c o n d e x p l a n a t i o n y o u g iv e i n p a r a g r a p h 5 . 5 .1 is t h a t h e w a s a p p r o a c h i n g y o u a n d B N P C a p i t a l I a m p ic k i n g i t u p in t h e t h ir d li n e o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h b e c a u s e o f y o u r b r o a d b a s e d b l a c k e c o n o m i c e m p o w e r m e n t c r e d e n ti a ls , d o y o u s e e t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s – y e s s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u e x p l o r e t h a t w i t h h i m a n d w h y h is c o m p a n y d i d n o t h a v e th o s e c r e d e n ti a ls ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A s f a r a s t h e d is c u s s i o n t h r o u g h y o u C h a i r w i th I n l i n e Tr a d i n g . 20 I n l i n e Tr a d i n g w a s a c c o r d in g to u n d e r s t a n d in g n o t a c o m p a n y t h a t w a s a c t u a ll y f u ll y fl e d g e d e s p e c i a lly in th is p a r t ic u l a r s p a c e a s f a r a s t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts I m e a n th e R F I r e q u ir e m e n t s w e r e c o n c e r n e d . S o w h e n h e a c t u a ll y a p p r o a c h e d u s i t w a s b a s e d o n a q u e s ti o n o f w h a t In li n e Tr a d i n g h a d a t th a t p o i n t i n ti m e a n d w h a t w e h a d a s a c o m p a n y. S o t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n In li n e Tr a d in g w h e n y o u a c t u a lly h a d to – w h e n w e e x p lo r e d y o u k n o w w h a t i s Page 62 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h a t w a s a v a i l a b le a t I n l in e Tr a d i n g . W h a t is b a s i c a ll y i n a n e n ti ty t h a t w a s n o t t r a d in g a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e a n d t h e o n ly t h i n g th a t i t h a d w a s b a s ic a lly t h e a v i a ti o n e x p e r ie n c e a n d b a s ic i n d iv id u a l s w i th t h a t p a r t ic u l a r e x p e r i e n c e . N o t n e c e s s a r i ly t h a t t h e c o m p a n y h a s a c t u a l ly b e e n i n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r s p a c e f o r l o n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u I w a n t t o fo ll o w u p o n t h a t b u t I w i ll r e t u r n t o my q u e s t io n a b o u t B E E c r e d e n ti a l s b e c a u s e I a m n o t c e r t a i n th a t th a t a n s w e r r e la t e s t o t h e c o m p a r a tiv e B B B E E c r e d e n t ia ls o f t h e tw o e n ti t ie s . B u t l e t m e f o l lo w u p o n w h a t y o u h a v e te s ti fi e d t o . 10 I have your evidence to be that you had understood at the time that I n li n e Tr a d i n g w a s n o t f u l ly f le d g e d a n d th a t i t h a d n o t b e e n tr a d i n g a t t h a t p o in t in ti m e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y c o u l d w e th e n r e t u r n to a n n e x u r e 2 2 . CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry just before that. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand whether it had ever commenced tr a d i n g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 O b v i o u s ly I n li n e Tr a d i n g h a d a w h a t y o u c a l l i t a s ta t e m e n t w h i c h i s a S A R S s t a t e m e n t i t m e a n s i t w a s a c t u a ll y o p e r a t i o n a l. B u t a s t o w h e th e r a c ti v i t ie s i n t h a t p a r ti c u la r c o m p a n y t o o k p l a c e it w a s n o t a – i t w a s n o t a - i t w a s a d i ff e r e n t d is c u s s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t k n o w o r y o u d i d k n o w ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o w e d i d n o t k n o w. Page 63 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d i d n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t h a d a n y tr a d i n g a c ti v i ti e s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I t h i n k t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n c a m e t h r o u g h w h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : L a te r. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : L a te r w h e n w e a c t u a ll y s e e k c e r t a i n in f o r m a t io n . I t h i n k m a y b e th a t p o in t w e g o i n g to d is c u s s l a t e r a s to … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e . 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A s t o h o w w e th e n y o u k n o w h a d t o a c t u a l ly r e s tr u c tu r e o u r a r r a n g e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u I w o u l d li k e to b e v e r y c l e a r h e r e b e c a u s e i t i s o f s o m e i m p o r t a n c e . A t t h e ti m e t h a t y o u w e r e m e e t in g w i t h M r M n g a d i i n p r e p a r a ti o n fo r p u t ti n g i n th e b i d w e a r e n o w a t a b o u t a 1 3 F e b r u a r y d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i ti o n t o b e th a t In li n e Tr a d i n g d i d n o t h a v e tr a d i n g e x p e r i e n c e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir h e n c e I a m s a y in g tr a d i n g e x p e r i e n c e m i g h t b e m a y b e in th is p a r t ic u l a r c a s e n o t a n 20 a p p r o p r i a t e w o r d in a s e n s e t h a t i t h a s a t a x c le a r a n c e c e r ti f ic a te . S o b y v ir t u e o f i t h a v in g a t a x c le a r a n c e c e r ti fi c a t e i t m e a n s t h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e a c t iv it y i n t h e r e h o w e v e r a s to in th e s p a c e t h a t w e a c t th a t w a s a c t u a l ly r e q u i r e d w h ic h is t h e b a l a n c e s h e e t o p ti m i s a t io n a n d d e b t c o n s o l id a ti o n w h e t h e r i t h a d t h a t e x p e r i e n c e i n t h e a d v is o r y s p a c e i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t is w h a t I a m a c t u a l ly to r e f e r r in g to h e r e . Page 64 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e M r M a h l a n g u y o u i n d ic a te in y o u r s t a te m e n t l a te r o n t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u d i d n o t s u b m i t a n y fi n a n c i a l s f o r I n l in e Tr a d in g is b e c a u s e i t h a d n o tr a d i n g e x p e r i e n c e , d o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o it h a d n o tr a d in g e x p e r i e n c e t o y o u r knowledge? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e fi n i t e l y i t h a d – i t c o u l d h a v e – s o r r y i t c o u l d h a v e tr a d in g e x p e r i e n c e b u t I d o n o t k n o w I c a n n o t 10 a c t u a ll y v o u c h f o r i t . H o w e v e r g iv e n t h a t i t is a s m a l l e n ti t y th e d i ff e r e n c e is w h e t h e r i t h a d fi n a n c i a l s is a n o t h e r – i t i s a d i ff e r e n t s to r y b e c a u s e s o m e c o m p a n i e s th e y a r e n o t a c t u a lly n o t a c tu a l ly c o m p e l le d t o a c tu a l ly f in a n c ia ls e s p e c ia ll y w h e n th e y a r e a c t u a ll y s m a ll e n ti ti e s o r s t a r t u p e n t it i e s . CHAIRPERSON: evidence. W e l l p a r t o f th is q u e s ti o n i n g a r i s e s fr o m y o u r o w n I a s k e d y o u w h e th e r y o u k n e w w h e t h e r i t h a d c o m m e n c e d tr a d i n g a t s o m e s t a g e a n d y o u s a i d i t h a d a ta x n u m b e r a n d b u t y o u s a i d a s t o w h e t h e r i t h a d a n y a c tiv i ti e s y o u d i d n o t k n o w, d id I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t ly ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d I – m y – I u n d e r s t o o d th a t t o b e a r e f e r e n c e t o tr a d i n g a c ti v i t ie s o f a n y k in d n o t n e c e s s a r i ly i n t h e – i n t h e s e c to r in w h ic h B N P w a s in v o lv e d . in t e n d e d to s a y ? W a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t o f w h a t y o u In other words when you say you did not know w h e t h e r it h a d a n y a c ti v i ti e s w a s I c o r r e c t to th i n k y o u w e r e ta lk in g Page 65 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a b o u t t r a d i n g a c t iv i ti e s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s b a s i c a ll y w h a t I a m r e fe r r i n g t o y o u C h a ir is g i v e n th a t In li n e Tr a d i n g w h e n – w h e n t h e y g o t in f o r m a ti o n a t t h e o ffi c e I t h i n k th e is s u e w a s fi n a n c i a l s b u t a s f a r a s o th e r d o c u m e n ta t io n w e r e c o n c e r n e d th e y c o u ld a c tu a l ly p r o v i d e . A n d m y t a k e a s f a r a s t h a t i s c o n c e r n e d is i f a c o m p a n y d o e s n o t h a v e fi n a n c i a l s . 1 . T h e r e is e i t h e r th e r e a r e tw o p o s s ib il i t ie s – o r a c o u p l e o f p o s s i b il it i e s . B u t t h e m a i n o n e is i t is e i t h e r i t h a s b e e n tr a d i n g 10 in t h a t p a r t ic u l a r c o m p a n y m e a n i n g a c ti v i ti e s i n th a t c o m p a n y. 2 . O r th is c o m p a n y d o e s n o t s e e a n e e d o f i t h a v i n g fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts . Ye s b u t a s f a r a s t h e a s p e c t o f a s I m e n t io n e d th e a s p e c t o f w h a t t h e R F P r e q u i r e d t h a t is w h a t I w a s a c t u a ll y r e f e r r in g t o to s a y I d o n o t t h i n k th e y h a d m u c h e x p e r i e n c e i n t h a t a r e a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o n o I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e w e a r e s p e a k i n g o n – o n – w e a r e n o t s p e a k i n g a t c r o s s p u r p o s e s . T h e r e i s t h e q u e s ti o n w h e t h e r th a t e n t i ty h a d e x p e r i e n c e o r h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d i n a c tiv i ti e s t h a t a r e i m m e d ia t e l y r e l e v a n t t o t h e b id . 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t i s w h a t y o u m a y h a v e b e e n t a lk i n g a b o u t . B u t a ls o I w o u ld i m a g i n e i t w o u ld b e i m p o r t a n t to f ir s t k n o w w h e t h e r w h a t a c t iv i t ie s – w h a t b u s in e s s a c ti v i ti e s i t h a s b e e n in v o lv e d i n i f it d o e s n o t – i t h a s n o t b e e n i n v o lv e d i n t h e s e c t o r t h a t y o u a r e i n b e c a u s e i f y o u fi n d o u t t h a t t h is is a n e n t it y fo r e x a m p l e t h a t w a s j u s t Page 66 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 r e g is t e r e d a n d h a s n e v e r d o n e a n y th i n g o f a n y p a r t t h a t m i g h t b e r e l e v a n t t o th e q u e s t io n o f h o w le g it i m a te is i t fo r m e t o g e t to u n d e r t a k e th is k i n d o f p r o j e c t o r j o b w i t h a n e n ti ty w h i c h h a s n e v e r b e e n i n v o lv e d i n a n y b u s in e s s a c t iv i t y a t a l l. D i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t I mean? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I u n d e r s t a n d y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I w a s a s k i n g i n r e g a r d t o th a t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: 10 J a w h e t h e r i n t e r m s o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e a t t h a t ti m e c o v e r e d t h a t o r w h e t h e r y o u s a y n o I a c t u a l ly d id k n o w y o u m ig h t h a v e g o t t o k n o w th a t l a te r. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I t h i n k – t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir I t h i n k th e l a t te r is tr u e a t th a t p o in t i n ti m e o n e d i d n o t k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : f u r th e r. M r M a h l a n g u I w o u l d lik e to p r o b e t h a t a b i t Yo u n e e d e d to s u b m i t th e fi n a n c i a ls fo r b o th e n ti ti e s t h a t f o r m e d t h e J V w h e n y o u b id f o r t h e te n d e r a t S A A d i d y o u n o t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : T h a t w a s th e i n i t ia l t h o u g h t a t t h e b e g in n in g . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o I a m a s k in g w a s i t a r e q u ir e m e n t o f th e b i d t h a t y o u s u b m i t th e fi n a n c i a ls o f b o th e n t i ti e s i n th e J V w h o w e r e b i d d i n g f o r th e te n d e r. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s w e a r e n o t a J V. C a n I j u s t m a y b e ta lk a b o u t i t? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s in d e e d . Page 67 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r I a m g o in g t o b e j u m p in g a r o u n d h e r e . I n – a s w e a c t u a ll y e x p l o r e d w it h I n li n e Tr a d i n g a s f a r a s w h a t is i t t h a t th e y h a v e , w h a t is th a t t h e y d o n o t h a v e , o b v i o u s I t h i n k i n th is d o c u m e n t w e h a v e a c t u a l ly l o o s e ly u s e d t h e w o r d J V a n d t h e c o n s o r t iu m . Ye s . A n d in o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s e s p e c i a l ly in o u r m a r k e t s p a c e a s f a r a s t h e s e te r m s a r e c o n c e r n e d sometimes it depends – because in – you know some – some – some c o m p a n i e s c o m e t o g e t h e r a n d f o r m a c o n s o r t i u m a n d in th e n t h a t 10 c o n s o r ti u m is b a s ic a l ly t h e c o m p a n y t h a t g e t s i t r e g i s te r e d a n d t h e ir in t e r e s t a c t u a l ly g e t s k n o w n u p fr o n t a n d t h e n th e s a m e c o m p a n y th a t is y o u k n o w t h a t i t o w n s b y th e s e d i ff e r e n t p a r t i e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is fo r m a l a r r a n g e m e n t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . But in some instances e s p e c i a l ly g i v e n t h a t t h e r e w a s j u s t – a t t h e b e g i n n in g t h e r e w a s j u s t r e q u e s t f o r in f o r m a t io n . S o w h e n w e e n g a g e d w i t h In li n e Tr a d i n g t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g a t th e b e g in n in g w a s l e t u s f o r m a J V b u t a s my t e a m 20 a c t u a ll y went th r o u g h the d o c u m e n t a ti o n and r e a li s e d th a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r s tr u c t u r e w ill n o t a c t u a lly w o r k w i t h u s y e s b a s e d o n s o m e o f t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t t h e s e g u y s d i d n o t h a v e . So the – then the c o n c l u s i o n th a t w a s t a k e n w a s le t u s fo r m a c o n s o r ti u m b u t i t a c t u a ll y it is u n i n c o r p o r a t e d c o n s o r t iu m w h ic h w e h a v e a c t u a ll y d o n e i t i n m a n y o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s . I m e a n e v e n i n – i n th is b id t h a t I a m – I m e a n t h e Page 68 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 o n e t h a t I a m – i t is p a r t o f th e e x p e r i e n c e w h e r e w e a c t u a l ly h a d t o d o a n e x e r c i s e fo r – f o r t h e h e a l t h d e p a r t m e n t t h a t 4 0 0 b i ll io n o n – A c a d e m ic H o s p i ta l th a t w a s a r r a n g e m e n t . S o w e h a v e g o t a l e a d w h ic h a c t u a ll y l e a d s – l e a d a c o n s o r ti u m a n d t h e c o n s o r ti u m in e s s e n c e w h a t t h e n t h e y d o i s t h e y s u b m i t m in i m u m in f o r ma t io n to th a t a s f a r a s y o u k n o w th e r e q u i r e m e n ts a r e c o n c e r n e d . S o i n t h is p a r t ic u l a r c a s e t h a t is t h e r o u te w e to o k . A s g iv e n th e in f o r m a t i o n t h a t w a s a v a il a b l e a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 I just want to understand. Yo u d e c i d e d t h a t a jo in t v e n tu r e w o u ld n o t b e s u i ta b le . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u d e c i d e d th a t B N P M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : B e t h e le a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld b e t h e b id d e r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th e l e a d b id d e r. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: The lead bidder? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u d e c i d e d w h a t s ta t u s o r r o l e d i d y o u t h e n a s s ig n t o M r M n g a d i’s e n ti ty ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I th in k i t i s a c t u a l ly d e t a i l e d h e r e a s to w h e n – w h e n w e s o r t o f c a r v e d o u t th e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s a s t o w h o w a s g o i n g t o w h a t a s f a r th e r e s p o n s ib il it i e s a r e c o n c e r n e d i n t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is f in e w e w i ll c o m e t o t h a t. T h e r e a s o n w h y I a m i n te r e s t e d i n h o w y o u d e c i d e d t o w h a t r o l e o r s t a tu s y o u g a v e Page 69 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 to your r e l a t io n s h i p is because I saw th a t it looks l ik e the c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n S A A a n d y o u r s e lv e s a n d I u s e t h a t i n t h e p l u r a l a n d fr o m y o u , y o u r s e lv e s t o S A A a n d fr o m S A A t o y o u r s e lv e s s e e m e d to h a v e b e e n o n t h e l e tt e r h e a d s o f B N P o n ly. And no other e n t i ty w a s m e n t io n e d in a n y w a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: That… C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w o u l d s u g g e s t t o m e – th a t w o u ld s u g g e s t t o m e th a t a s fa r a s S A A is c o n c e r n e d B N P w a s th e b id d e r a n d n o b o d y e ls e . A n d t h a t y o u y o u r s e lv e s k n e w th a t t h e r e is o n l y o n e b i d d e r. Yo u 10 m i g h t h a v e o th e r – s o m e a r r a n g e m e n ts b e t w e e n y o u r s e lv e s I m e a n B N P a n d Mr M n g a d i ’s e n ti ty b u t r e a ll y i f t h e q u e s t io n i s a s k e d w h o is t h e b i d d e r th e a n s w e r w o u l d b e B N P i f t h e tr u th w e r e t o b e t o l d . That – t h a t is w h a t I b e g a n to t h i n k w h e n I s o lo o k e d – l o o k e d a t t h e correspondence. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s w h y I a m a s k i n g t h e q u e s ti o n , i f y o u d e c i d e d t h a t y o u w e r e n o t g o in g t o b e – to f o r m a j o i n t v e n tu r e b e c a u s e y o u h a d d e c i d e d t h a t w o u l d b e n o t – t h a t w o u l d b e u n s u i t a b le w h a t i s i t t h e n w a s t h e n a t u r e o f t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d w h a t w a s t h e r o le o f Mr M n g a d i’s 20 e n t i tiy ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: c la r i ty. O k a y t h a n k y o u C h a ir f o r t h e W h a t I w o u l d li k e t o d o C h a ir ju s t to p u t t h a t i s t o g iv e y o u e x p e r i e n c e i n t h is p a r tic u la r s p a c e b e c a u s e a s f a r a s t h is S A A t e n d e r is c o n c e r n e d t h a t is n o t t h e o n ly s tr u c t u r e t h a t is b e i n g u s e d i n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r a r r a n g e m e n t . I a m a c t u a l ly g o i n g t o m e n ti o n a c o u p l e o f Page 70 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 s tr u c t u r e s t h a t w e h a v e a c tu a l ly w e h a v e d o n e w h ic h in c l u d e s fo r in s t a n c e w e p a r t n e r e d – I h a v e m e n t io n e d – I d id n o t w a n t t o m e n t i o n s o m e o f t h e a u d i t fir m s h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: But we partnered with – with D e l o i t te . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s t o a c t u a ll y – t o v e t th e s in k i n g fu n d w h ic h is – w a s r u n b y R e g i m e n t s a t C i ty o f J o h a n n e s b u r g . 10 A n d t h a t a r r a n g e m e n t w h e n y o u lo o k a t i t D e l o i t t e w a s th e le a d s o a s f a r a s t h e l e t te r o f a p p o in t m e n t is c o n c e r n e d i n t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e D e l o i t te a c tu a lly le t t e r h e a d . w a s r e c e i v i n g a l l t h e in f o r m a t io n e v e n o n t h e H o w e v e r w h e n t h e s u b m is s i o n w a s m a d e D e lo i tt e a c tu a l ly d i d s a y B N P C a p i t a l is a c tu a lly i t is a s u b - c o n t r a c t a n d t h e n a s f a r a s t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s o f t h a t a r e c o n c e r n e d t h e n – g o t m a p p e d o u t b e t w e e n u s a n d D e lo i tt e t o s a y t h i s i s h o w w e a r e g o i n g to – t h i s is h o w w e g o in g t o a c tu a lly r e g u l a t e th is p a r tic u la r r e l a t i o n s h ip . So even in t h is p a r t ic u l a r c a s e I m e a n th e r e a r e s o m a n y e v e n i n t h e h o s p i t a l – i n h o s p i ta l th e r e w e r e s u b - c o n tr a c to r s – w e w e r e s u b - c o n tr a c to r s . Ye s . I 20 r e m e m b e r i n t h is … CHAIRPERSON: N o I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b le m w it h w h a t y o u a r e e x p l a i n in g a n d w i th s u b - c o n tr a c to r s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t u s to g e t i t r i g h t. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. Page 71 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : As t o w h e t h e r w e a r e d e a li n g w it h a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e r e w a s a j o i n t v e n t u r e b e t w e e n B N P a n d I n li n e Tr a d i n g o r w h e r e w e a r e – w h e t h e r w e a r e d e a li n g w i th t h e s i t u a t io n w h e r e th e b i d d e r w a s B N P b u t i t h a d s o m e a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n i ts e l f a n d I n l in e Tr a d i n g w h ic h d i d n o t r a i s e I n li n e Tr a d in g t o t h e le v e l o f b e in g a b id d e r o r a jo in t b i d d e r i ts e lf b u t s i m p ly t o h a v e a n a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h B N P w h ic h w o u ld a s s is t B N P t o c a r r y o u t o r e x e c u t e t h e b i d i f it g o t t h e t e n d e r. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. As I s a i d a t t h e b e g in n in g w h e n t h is t h i n g w a s a c tu a l ly c r a ft o u t a n d t h e 10 t h i n k i n g w a s w e a r e g o i n g t o w o r k t o g e t h e r a s p a r tn e r s h o w e v e r w h e n c e r t a i n i n f o r m a t io n w a s a c t u a lly r e q u e s t e d b y m y o ffic e t h a t n e e d t o c o m e t h r o u g h a n d t h e n w e r e a lis e d t h a t i n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r c a s e – b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r w h e n w e a c t u a ll y f o r m a J V i t is – i t c o m e s w i t h a w h o le l o t o f r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s a n d g iv e n th e ti m e f r a m e s th a t w e r e a c t u a l ly a v a i la b le s o w e d id n o t h a v e a n y ti m e . S o h e n c e I th i n k t h e r e w a s a c h o p p in g a n d c h a n g i n g a s fa r a s th e s tr a t e g y a s t o h o w d o w e – h o w t o t h e n p o s i ti o n t h i s e n ti ty s o t h a t a t t h e s a m e ti m e w e d o n o t p r e j u d i c e y o u k n o w t h e o p p o r tu n i t y t h a t is th e r e b y a c t u a l ly p u tt i n g a s tr u c t u r e t h a t w h ic h is n o t – w h ic h is n o t w o r k i n g . Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t is fi n e . M s H o f m e y r y o u m ig h t w is h t o c o n ti n u e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u y o u b i d a s a c o n s o r ti u m / j o i n t v e n tu r e w i t h I n li n e Tr a d i n g 1 0 P T Y L i m i te d , d i d y o u n o t ? Page 72 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t . L e t u s g o t o th a t p a g e y o u w il l fi n d it in y o u r s o ft f il e w h i c h c o m p r is e s y o u r b i d s u b mi s s io n a n d y o u w ill f in d it a t in t e r n a l p a g e 2 2 o f 5 5 w h i c h C h a ir f o r t h e r e c o r d c o m e s fr o m M s S t i m p e l ’s e x h i b i t D D 1 a t p a g e 3 9 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll s e e th e r e . S o r r y M r M a h l a n g u l e t m e le t y o u g e t t o i t . Yo u w il l s e e th e r e t h e fir s t b o l d e n tr y o n t h a t p a g e a b o u t a t h ir d o f t h e w a y d o w n r e q u ir e s th e b i d d e r i n c a s e o f a 10 c o n s o r ti u m o r j o i n t v e n tu r e to p r o v i d e t h e f u ll d e t a i ls o n th e c o n s o r t iu m o r jo in t v e n t u r e m e m b e r s i f a p p li c a b l e . A n d d o s e e t h a t e n te r e d t h e r e is I n li n e Tr a d i n g 1 0 P T Y L i m i te d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t is c o r r e c t y o u b i d a s a j o in t v e n tu r e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Okay in the understanding that I have yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . L e t u s t h e n g o t o t h e fi n a n c i a l p o s i ti o n o f I n l in e Tr a d i n g b e c a u s e t h a t i s a c t u a l ly w h e r e w e s ta r t e d t h e s e q u e s t i o n s . Yo u s a i d th a t th e fi n a n c i a ls o f In li n e Tr a d in g w e r e n o t 20 p r o v i d e d b e c a u s e y o u w e r e t o l d th a t t h e y w e r e n o t tr a d i n g , is t h a t correct? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t is t h e a s s u m p ti o n I h a v e m a d e . B e c a u s e th e i r f i n a n c ia ls w e r e n o t a v a i l a b l e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h I s e e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s s o w h a t I s a id w a s t h e y Page 73 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 w e r e – th e r e a r e a c o u p l e o f o p t io n s a s f a r a s th a t a s p e c t is c o n c e r n e d . E i th e r t h e s e g u y s d i d n o t s e e a n e e d fo r t h e m t o p r e p a r e a n y f i n a n c ia ls o r th e r e w a s n o a c t iv it y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u s a y i t is b e c a u s e o f t h e l a tt e r t h a t t h e y h a d n o a c t iv i t ie s . Yo u d i d n o t e n q u ir e o f t h e m w h e t h e r t h e y d id n o t h a v e fi n a n c ia l s t a t e m e n t s b e c a u s e th e y d e c i d e d n o t t o c o m p i le t h e m , d i d y o u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d th r o u g h y o u C h a ir t h a t I d o n o t d e a l a t th a t l e v e l i t is m y a c t u a lly m y – t h e g u y s a t 10 t h e o ffi c e t h a t a c tu a lly s a y s t h is c o m p a n y h a s g o t t h i s a n d th is is h o w w e a r e g o in g to m o v e f o r w a r d . S o I d o n o t d e a l a t t h a t l e v e l a s to e n q u ir e y o u k n o w a b o u t t h e f in a n c ia ls o f a p a r tic u la r c o m p a n y th a t y o u d e a li n g w it h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s ig n e d t h e b i d s u b m i s s i o n t h o u g h , d i d y o u not? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In a l l it s r e s p e c ts . S o d i d y o u c o n t e n t y o u r s e l f a s t o th e a c c u r a c y o f t h e i n f o r m a ti o n c o n t a i n e d i n th a t b id s u b m is s io n b e f o r e y o u s u b m i t te d i t ? 20 CHAIRPERSON: S o r r y Ms H o f m e y r I t h i n k c o u n s e l w i s h e s t o s a y something – please come forward. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h a p o lo g ie s . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s h e a r. UNKNOWN COUNSEL: Yo u r Worship m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t is ta k i n g p l a c e . Page 74 of 221 just – there is a 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . UNKNOWN COUNSEL: T h e w i tn e s s h a s c l a r if i e d t h a t e v e n th o u g h a n d t h e s e a r e h is w o r d s , e v e n t h o u g h t h e r e is l o o s e r e f e r e n c e to e x p r e s s io n s o f j o i n t v e n t u r e a n d c o n s o r t i u m w h a t i n a c t u a l e ff e c t to o k p l a c e w it h t h i s b i d t h e y u s e d a s tr u c tu r e w h e r e t h e r e is a p r i m a r y b i d d e r, a l e a d b i d d e r a n d t h e o t h e r p a r ty c o m e s a s a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r. A n d in t h a t s tr u c t u r e i t is h is e v i d e n c e t h a t h o w i t i s tr e a t e d s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t w o u l d o r d i n a r i ly b e r e q u ir e d i f i t is a j o i n t v e n t u r e i n t h e p r o p e r s e n s e t h e y a r e n o t r e q u ir e d i n r e l a ti o n t o s u b - c o n t r a c t o r s . 10 T h e y a r e o n l y r e q u ir e d i n t e r m s o f t h e p r i m a r y b i d d e r b u t w h e n t h e e n t i ty i s v i e w e d in t e r m s o f h i s te c h n i c a l e x p e r ti s e a n d a b i li ty t o d e liv e r a l l t h e p a r t ie s a n d t h e C V ’s o f t h e m e m b e r s a r e l o o k e d a t b y t h e – b y t h e e n ti ty t h a t w o u ld h a v e is s u e d th e R F P. S o i t is n o t a – a n a r r a n g e m e n t w h e r e th e s u b - c o n tr a c to r i s c o m p l e t e ly b e h i n d t h e s c e n e s . I t is n o t b e h in d t h e s c e n e s . T h e e n tir e v e n tu r e , th e e n ti r e – t h e e n tir e t e a m is e v a l u a te d o n t h e s tr e n g t h o f t h e C V ’s o f a ll t h e m e m b e r s b u t d o c u m e n ts li k e y o u r i t w o u ld d e p e n d [i n d i s ti n c t ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o , n o , n o t h a t is fi n e I t h i n k … U N K N O W N C O U N S E L : T h a t is w h a t is b e i n g m i s s e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k t h a t – I t h in k m a k e n o t e s a n d i n d u e c o u r s e g iv e t h e m t o M s H o f m e y r a t s o m e s t a g e o f a r e a s w h e r e y o u th i n k t h e r e should be some c l a r i f ic a t i o n where you think there might be m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d i f h a v in g s e e n y o u r n o te s a n d a s k e d w h a t e v e r q u e s t io n a r is i n g fr o m y o u r n o t e s y o u a r e s ti ll n o t h a p p y t h a t y o u a r e c o v e r e d t h e n y o u c a n r a is e i t w i th m e . O k a y th a n k y o u . Page 75 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir I a m in d e b t e d . I t i s o f c o u r s e i m p o r t a n t fo r th e p u r p o s e s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s p r o c e e d i n g s t h a t w e r e c e i v e e v id e n c e f r o m t h e w i t n e s s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t i s t h o s e a n s w e r s t h a t w e p r o b e w i th f u r th e r q u e s t io n s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l a n g u y o u w e r e i n d ic a ti n g y o u r s ta t e o f k n o w l e d g e a t t h e t i m e th a t y o u s u b m i t te d t h e b i d s u b m is s io n a b o u t t h e 10 tr a d i n g a c tiv i ti e s o f I n li n e Tr a d in g . Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e y d i d n o t h a v e tr a d i n g a c t iv i ti e s a n d t h a t is w h y y o u d id n o t s u b m i t f in a n c ia ls fo r t h e m ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: t h a t is i n c o r r e c t . Th a t is i n c o r r e c t t h r o u g h C h a ir W h a t I s a i d – I s a id th e a s s u m p t io n s a s f a r a s t h a t aspect is concerned. I t is e it h e r t h e g u y s t h e y d e c id e n o t t o d o fi n a n c i a l s 1 . O r I a m m a k i n g a s s u m p t io n s h e r e y e s – i n e s s e n c e w h a t I a m d o in g h e r e is i n h in d s i g h t w h e r e I a m s it t in g n o w I a m m a k in g a s s u m p t io n s b e c a u s e I d o n o t w a n t – I d i d n o t t h i n k t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o b e in t h i s … y e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o b u t l e t m e j u s t e x p l a in . M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e q u e s ti o n is t h a t i t s e e k s t o e s t a b li s h w h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s a n d y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w o u l d b e b a s e d i n p a r t o n a s s u m p ti o n s th a t y o u made. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h ic h m i g h t t u r n o u t to h a v e b e e n w r o n g b u t t h o s e Page 76 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a r e t h e a s s u m p ti o n s o n w h i c h y o u b a s e d y o u r d e c is io n s a n d h o w y o u in t e r a c te d w i t h [ i n d is ti n c t ] . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s tr u e . CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o t h a t i s – s h e is n o t s a y i n g w h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n b u t s h e i s s a y in g w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n w a s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s a n d h e n c e t h a n k y o u C h a ir. H e n c e I s a i d I w a s n o t a c t u a l ly r e s p o n s i b l e fo r th a t h o w e v e r b a s e d o n in f o r m a ti o n b e f o r e m e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: W h e n w e a c t u a l ly e n g a g e w i t h e n t i ti e s b e c a u s e w e e n g a g e s u c h e n ti t ie s o n y o u k n o w – o n a c o n ti n u o u s b a s e s . W h e n a n e n ti ty d o e s n o t h a v e fi n a n c i a l s i t i s e i th e r t h e y a r e n o t i n a p o s i t io n t o b e – th e fi n a n c i a l s a r e n o t r e a d y o r s e c o n d ly th e r e h a s n o t b e e n a n y a c ti v i ty f o r t h e m to a c tu a lly to s a y th is is [ i n d is ti n c t ] a n y f in a n c ia ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o th a t is f in e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o t h o s e a r e th e a s s u m p ti o n s that we were making yes. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o th a t is f in e b u t i t w ill h e lp u s t o m a k e p r o g r e s s if y o u j u s t a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n a s t o t h e b e s t o f y o u r a b il it y a n d if y o u a r e r e q u ir e d t o j u s t i fy w h y y o u d i d o r d i d n o t d o a n y p a r t ic u l a r t h i n g t h e n y o u ju s t i fy. S o f o r e x a m p le a t t h i s s t a g e t h e q u e s t io n w a s s i m p ly a s t o w h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s a t th e p a r t ic u l a r ti m e o n a p a r t ic u l a r i s s u e a ll y o u s a y is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g Page 77 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 was a, b, c, d. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: M a y b e – th a n k s C h a ir f o r guidance. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: M a y b e – w h a t I – I w o u ld r e s p o n d t o t h i s is s u e b e c a u s e – w i t h – y o u k n o w – w i t h o u t s k a ti n g around you know 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: To b e h o n e s t I d id n o t k n o w w h a t [i n d is t in c t ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t – t h a t is t h e i m p o r t a n t – s o m e t i m e s y o u k n o w, s o m e t i m e s y o u d o n o t k n o w a n d w h e n y o u a r e t h e h e a d o f a n o r g a n i s a t io n t h e r e w i ll b e t h i n g s th a t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h ic h y o u s h o u l d k n o w. T h e r e w i ll b e th in g s t h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h ic h y o u d o n o t n e e d t o k n o w a n d s o o n b u t I t h i n k M s H o f m e y r w il l t a l k t o y o u b e c a u s e h e r q u e s t io n m a y h a v e a li n k w i t h t h e – w i t h t h e f a c t t h a t y o u s i g n e d c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts s o m a y b e y o u s h o u l d r e p e a t y o u r q u e s ti o n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r M a h l a n g u a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e n o w i t is t h a t y o u d i d n o t k n o w a t t h e t i m e o f s u b m i t ti n g t h e b i d w h e th e r I n l in e Tr a d i n g h a d fi n a n c i a ls . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O k a y. Page 78 of 221 C a n I g o b a c k th r o u g h 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h e C h a ir ? I t h i n k n o w t h e q u e s t io n k e e p s o n c h a n g i n g n o w. Th e q u e s t io n – th e fir s t q u e s ti o n t h a t I u n d e r s t o o d w a s d id – d i d – f o r t h e m e r e f a c t th a t th e fi n a n c i a l s w e r e n o t a v a i la b le d i d I k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s n o a c tiv i ty i n th e b u s in e s s . S o h e n c e I s a id t h e r e a s o n fo r s o m e o f t h e fi n a n c i a l s n o t a v a il a b l e I w a s m a k i n g a s s u m p t i o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 B u t fo r – f o r – t h e q u e s t i o n M s H o f m e y r h a s j u s t a s k e d m e n o w is w h e t h e r d i d I k n o w a t t h e ti m e o f s u b m is s io n w h e t h e r t h e f i n a n c ia ls w e r e n o t a v a il a b l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . Ye s I d i d k n o w th e fi n a n c i a l s w e r e n o t a v a il a b l e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t is c o n s is t e n t w i t h w h a t y o u s a y a t p a r a – a t p a g e 4 4 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t . m e m o r y. 20 W e c a n j u s t g o th e r e t o r e fr e s h y o u r If we go to page 44 of your statement. Yo u w i ll s e e a t th e b o t t o m t h e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 11 . 3 . 8 y o u a r e r e s p o n d i n g to a q u e s ti o n th a t t h e C o m m is s i o n h a d a s k e d o f y o u . Th e q u e s ti o n is : “ W h y is it t h a t o n l y t h e f i n a n c i a ls o f B N P C a p i t a l w e r e s u b m i t te d a n d n o t fo r I n l i n e Tr a d i n g ? ” A n d t h e r e s p o n s e a s I h a v e i t to b e y o u r r e s p o n s e is : “ I n l in e Tr a d in g h a d n o t tr a d i n g e x p e r i e n c e . ” Page 79 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. W h y t h e n d i d t h e b id s u b m i s s i o n in d i c a t e th a t it h a d 1 0 y e a r s o f e x p e r i e n c e in f u n d s m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e a v i a ti o n a n d a u t o m o ti v e s e c t o r s ? I w ill t a k e y o u t o t h a t r e f e r e n c e f o r y o u r c o n v e n ie n c e . Yo u w ill f i n d i t i n M s N h a n t s i ’s b u n d le w h ic h is E X H I B I T D D 2 a n d i f y o u t u r n u p p a g e 2 - 7 - 2 i n t h a t b u n d le . C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t h a v e th a t b u n d l e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms N h a n ts i. I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I h a v e th is o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s – b u t th e o r ig i n a l D D 2 C h a i r I h a v e r e q u e s t e d w a s w it h y o u to d a y. I th i n k i t m i g h t b e w i th y o u o n t h e s id e – m i g h t it ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . N o b o d y to ld m e a n y t h i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . A p o l o g ie s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it s h o u l d h a v e b e e n h e r e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: DD2? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : D D 2 . A m I g o i n g to n e e d a ll t h e s e o t h e r o n e s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t p o i n ts y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s t h a t t h a t w a s n o t c o n v e y e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t is t h e p a g e n u m b e r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 - 7 - 2 . Yo u w i ll fi n d i t r i g h t t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f Page 80 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h e fi l e M r M a h l a n g u . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u f o u n d i t th e r e y o u w il l s e e a h e a d i n g a t the top of that page - 2-7-2 - that reads: “ 1 .2 . 2 In tr o d u c ti o n t o th e C o m p a n y … ” And then it says: “ I n l in e Tr a d in g 1 0 ( P t y ) L td . ’s e x p e r i e n c e … ” S o r r y. “ … e x p e r t is e is i n f u n d s m a n a g e m e n t , a u to m o t iv e a n d th e a v i a ti o n s e c t o r. 10 In li n e Tr a d i n g ’s e x p e r t is e a n d tr a c k r e c o r d h a s b e e n a c c u m u la t e d f o r a p e r i o d in e x c e s s o f 1 0 y e a r s . ” Do you see that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th r o u g h C h a ir y e s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t i s i n c o n s is te n t w i th i t n o t h a v i n g h a d a n y tr a d i n g a c ti v i t ie s f o r th e p a s t 1 0 y e a r s . I s it n o t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d M r M a h l a n g u y o u h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e p r e v i o u s l y a b o u t t h e w o r d in g t h a t M r M n g a d i w a n t e d i n s e r t e d 20 in t o t h e b i d . D o y o u r e c a ll th a t ? It w a s t h e e m a i l b e tw e e n h i m s e l f a n d Mr Moyo. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e c a n g o t h e r e a g a in b u t y o u m a y r e c a l l th is is t h e e x a c t w o r d i n g t h a t M r M n g a d i w a n t e d i n s e r te d i n th e b i d . D o y o u r e c a l l th a t? Page 81 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I w a s – I w a s a b o u t to t a k e you there … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: To s a y t h is i s b a s ic a ll y t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w e g o t fr o m I n li n e Tr a d in g a b o u t t h e ir e x p e r i e n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : So did anyone in BNP Capital query how it c o u l d b e t h a t I n l i n e Tr a d i n g h a d 1 0 y e a r s o f e x p e r ie n c e in t h e s e t h r e e s e c t o r s a n d y e t h a v e n o f in a n c i a l b e c a u s e it w a s n o t tr a d in g ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir u n fo r t u n a t e ly 10 in o u r s p a c e y o u f in d c o m p a n ie s – w h e n – w h e n s o m e o n e d o e s n o t a c t u a ll y h a v e t h e f i n a n c i a ls n o w it d o e s n o t m e a n th a t th e y n e v e r h a d a n y f i n a n c ia ls y e s . I t m e a n s a t t h a t p o i n t - p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t in t i m e t h e fi n a n c i a l s w e r e n o t r e a d y f o r – f o r th e s u b m is s i o n . S o t h a t i s – t h a t is o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g . S o i t is n o t a q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r t h e s e p e o p le h a v e – h a v e b e e n tr a d i n g f o r th e p a s t c o u p le o f y e a r s w h a t e v e r th e c a s e is a n d h a v in g h a d a n y fi n a n c i a l s . H e n c e I s a i d s o m e p e o p l e s e e a n e e d f o r th e m t o a c t u a ll y h a v e t h e ir f i n a n c ia ls r e a d y o n a c o n s is t e n t b a s is s o m e d o n o t f o r – fo r o b v i o u s r e a s o n s b u t in t h i s p a r t ic u l a r c a s e m y a s s u m p ti o n w h e n I l o o k e d a t i t I j u s t – a s I 20 s a i d t h e r e w a s n o tr a d in g h e r e . M a y b e tr a d i n g w a s a c t u a ll y o n e / t w o . These guys were not r e a d y j u s t t o p u t o u t t h e ir fi n a n c i a ls o r fi n a n c i a l s w e r e n o t r e a d y o r th e a u d it o r s o r w h a t e v e r th e c a s e i s . S o – s o t h a t w a s m y p o s i ti o n a s f a r a s th is p o i n t is c o n c e r n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h la n g u t h e n th e a n s w e r t h a t y o u g a v e a t Page 82 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 p a g e 4 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d i ff e r e n t. S h o u l d i t n o t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I n l ig h t o f th is y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e r e w e r e n o t fi n a n c i a ls b e c a u s e t h e y d id n o t h a v e a n y r e a d y a t th a t t i m e fo r s u b m is s i o n ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir I d o n o t w a n t t o h a r b o u r o n t h i s i s s u e b u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e I w a s – I d o n o t a c tu a l ly d e a l w i th s u c h is s u e s . H o w e v e r in h i n d s i g h t n o w w h e n I lo o k a t m y – m y t h i n k i n g h e r e w a s i f t h e y d o n o t h a v e th e fi n a n c i a l s i t m e a n s t h a t n o tr a d i n g a c t iv i t y o r o n e , n e v e r s h o u ld h a v e 10 a c t u a ll y p u t t h a t o p ti o n in m y – i n m y r e s p o n s e . M a y b e t h a t w a s – y o u k n o w – a m is s o f m e t o s a y I s h o u l d h a v e a c tu a l ly p u t t h a t p o s s i b i li ty t h a t o n e i t is e it h e r t h e r e i s n o tr a d i n g . Tw o , it is e i t h e r – y o u k n o w – t h e f i n a n c ia ls a r e n o t r e a d y f o r t h a t p a r tic u la r e n ti ty b e c a u s e I w a s ju s t a n s w e r i n g b e c a u s e t h i s th i n g h a p p e n e d in 2 0 1 6 . S o I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r a l l t h e d e t a ils . I was just a n s w e r i n g – a n s w e r i n g to t h e b e s t o f m y a b i li ty. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll m a y b e l e t m e a s k t h i s q u e s ti o n a n d m a y b e M s H o f m e y r w a s s ti ll g o in g t o c o m e t o i t . I – I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t th a t if y o u a r e g o i n g to h a v e a w o r k in g r e la t io n s h i p w it h s o m e b o d y e l s e t h a t 20 in v o lv e s s o m e t h i n g li k e jo i n t ly t e n d e r i n g f o r b u s i n e s s a n d s o o n t o g e th e r – e x c u s e m e – th e r e w o u l d b e a c e r t a i n m i n i m u m h o m e w o r k t h a t y o u w o u l d w a n t t o d o o n th a t p e r s o n o r th a t e n ti t y ju s t t o s e e w h e t h e r t h is i s t h e ty p e o f e n t it y y o u w o u l d l ik e to b e a s s o c ia t e d w i th o r t h is is t h e ty p e o f e n ti ty o r p e r s o n t h a t y o u w o u ld li k e t o b e s e e n t o b e w o r k i n g w i th b y o t h e r p e o p le a n d o f c o u r s e m a y b e m o s t i m p o r t a n t ly Page 83 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 w h a t v a l u e th e y w o u l d b r i n g t o t h e ta b le a s fa r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d b u t s o m e o f t h e a n s w e r s y o u h a v e g iv e n t o s o m e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s s e e m t o s u g g e s t t h a t B N P m i g h t n o t h a v e d o n e t h a t k in d o f h o m e w o r k b o t h a b o u t M r M n g a d i a n d a b o u t I n l in e Tr a d in g . A m I r ig h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Th a t is tr u e C h a ir. I n o u r li n e o f b u s i n e s s i t d e p e n d s w h a t – w h a t is it t h a t y o u g u y s g e t in v o lv e d in . S o m e a u d i t fir m s t h e y b a s ic a l ly r u n t h e p r o c e s s o n u s y e s b e fo r e w e a c t u a ll y g e t in v o lv e d w i t h u s a n d – a n d f o r o b v i o u s r e a s o n s a n d t h a t p a r t ic u l a r – f o r r e a s o n s t h a t w e a l l k n o w – y o u k n o w – r e p u ta t io n , w h a t 10 t h e g u y s a r e in v o lv e d i n a n d t o h a v e a ll – a ll t h e s e s t a t u t o r y r e q u ir e m e n t s b l a h , b l a h , b la h b u t a s f a r a s t h e I t h i n k t h i s p a r t ic u l a r b i d w a s c o n c e r n e d b e c a u s e i t w a s a r e q u e s t fo r i n f o r m a ti o n . S o w e h a d t h e b a r e m in i m u m i n f o r m a t io n – y o u k n o w a t o u r d is p o s a l t h a t w e c o u ld a c tu a l ly u s e t o s u b m i t a n d s e c o n d l y i s a s f a r a s – a s fa r a s t h e d u e d i li g e n c e o n i n d iv i d u a ls a n d c o m p a n i e s h e n c e – h e n c e w e d i d n o t a c t u a ll y h a v e t i m e . I t h i n k w h a t w e h a d is – w a s t h e – I th in k w e h a d a b o u t a w e e k o r s o . CHAIRPERSON: A few days? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . To a c tu a lly … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : To a c t u a ll y p u t t o g e th e r b e c a u s e – y o u k n o w – s t a r t – t o s t a r t w i t h w e n o t e v e n i n te r e s t e d in t h e t e n d e r because … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: W e ju s t f o r w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r Page 84 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 document. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: We did not want to go for it. We w e r e n o t – o u r in t e r e s t w a s n o t e v e n th e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: So come – you know – comes a p a r t ic u l a r s o r t o f p o t e n t i a l – y o u k n o w – p a r tn e r s a y s y o u k n o w I h a v e g o t t h is in p l a c e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t h i n k w e c a n w o r k to g e th e r. Yo u g u y s h a v e g o t t h is e x p e r tis e . I h a v e g o t t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A n d th e n w e a r e t o d e a l w it h a d m i n is s u e s b e c a u s e I m e a n I t h i n k w h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t n o w i t is admin issues. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W h e r e w e s a i d o k a y fi n e w h a t is it t h a t w e h a v e . H o w – h o w c a n w e p r o p e r ly p u t t h e s tr u c t u r e i n p l a c e s o t h a t w e r e s p o n d a p p r o p r ia t e l y t o – t o t h is p a r t ic u l a r o p p o r t u n i ty. 20 I t h i n k a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e g iv e n t h e t i m e c o n s tr a i n ts a n d e v e r y t h i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e r e w a s n o - a n y t i m e to b e – t o b e – s o – s o t o s p e a k q u o t in g e a c h o th e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Page 85 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: To s a y w h o a r e y o u , w h e r e a r e y o u f r o m – y o u k n o w ( in t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o y o u a c c e p t th a t w h a t I r e f e r t o a s b a s i c h o m e w o r k is s o m e t h i n g th a t s h o u ld b e d o n e b u t y o u s a y t h e r e w e r e ti m e c o n s tr a in ts b e f o r e y o u h a d t o s u b m i t t h e in f o r m a t io n ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I a g r e e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t . J u s t t o a d d o n t h a t I t h i n k a l s o w h a t p r o v i d e d s o r t o f n o t a n y s u s p ic io n . H e n c e I s a i d 10 it is h o w w e a c t u a ll y m e t t h i s i n d iv id u a l … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A n d h o w t h e i n tr o d u c t io n w a s done. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hence I said if it was someone t h a t w e m e t o n t h e s tr e e t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t w a s g o in g t o b e a d i ff e r e n t b a ll g a m e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u I w o u l d l ik e to p ic k u p o n t h a t q u e s t io n o f t i m i n g . A s I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e M r M n g a d i’s f ir s t a p p r o a c h t o y o u w a s o n 9 Fe b r u a r y. T h a t i s th e e m a i l th a t w e l o o k e d a t . Is t h a t correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is c o r r e c t. Page 86 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n t h a t e m a il it t a l k s a b o u t t h e n e e d t o b e q u ic k b e c a u s e th e r e s p o n s e s t o t h e R F I h a d t o b e in – I th i n k i t w a s b y t h e n e x t Tu e s d a y – 1 6 F e b r u a r y. D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Do you know when the actual bids had to be s u b m i tt e d i n r e s p o n s e to t h e R F P ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o r r y th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. Now y o u a r e c o n fu s i n g m e . Ar e y o u – a r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t t h e R F I o r t h e RFP? 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m n o w t a l k i n g a b o u t R F P. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A lr i g h t , th e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e r e m e m b e r y o u e n g a g e in i ti a l ly o n th e R F I a n d t h e r e is a s h o r t p e r io d o f ti m e b e c a u s e M r M n g a d i a p p r o a c h e s y o u o n th e 9 t h a n d th o s e h a v e t o b e i n b y th e – a p o l o g i e s – i t is Tu e s d a y 1 6 F e b r u a r y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t is a m a t t e r o f s e v e n d a y s la t e r b u t t h e R F P p r o c e s s t h e n fo ll o w s a n d w h a t – t h e d o c u m e n t s w e h a v e b e e n lo o k in g a t a r e t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u s u b m i tt e d p u r s u a n t t o t h e R F P 20 p r o c e s s . T h e y a r e y o u r b i d s u b m is s i o n … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: (Intervenes). A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : After you have submitted a response to the r e q u e s t f o r i n fo r m a t i o n . Ar e y o u o n t h e s a m e p a g e a s m e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . I a m n o t s u r e h o w – I th in k I a m b u t I c a n n o t – I a m n o t f o ll o w i n g y o u y e t . M a y b e I w il l fo ll o w y o u . Page 87 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e r e is a d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e R F I a n d t h e R F P. D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I know that, yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right. The R F I ’s d e a d l in e was 1 6 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 . C o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e a s s is t . T h e R F P ’s d e a d li n e w a s 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . T h is p r o c e s s I … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t ? T h a t th e R F P r e q u ir e d y o u t o s u b m it y o u r b i d s b y 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . A r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . I a m j u s t tr y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s ti o n i n g b e c a u s e n o w y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t R F I a n d y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t R F P. C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M a h l a n g u p le a s e w h e n M s H o f m e y r a s k s q u e s ti o n s d o n o t t h i n k a b o u t w h e r e is s h e g o i n g o r a n y th in g li k e t h a t. J u s t l o o k a t t h e q u e s ti o n a n d j u s t a n s w e r i t to t h e b e s t o f y o u r a b il i ty. S h e h a s ju s t s a i d th e d a t e b y w h e n y o u r p r o p o s a l s – y o u r b i d h a d t o b e d e li v e r e d to S A A i n r e s p o n s e to t h e R F P - n o t t h e R F I – i n r e s p o n s e t o 20 t h e R F P. S h e h a s s a i d t h a t d a te – t h e c l o s i n g d a te w a s 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 a n d h e r q u e s ti o n i s a r e y o u a w a r e th a t t h a t is t h e d a te b y w h e n y o u r b i d h a d to b e s u b m i t t e d i n r e s p o n s e t o t h e R F P a n d y o u a r e e i t h e r a w a r e th a t t h a t w a s th e d a t e o r y o u a r e n o t a w a r e th a t t h a t w a s th e date. Page 88 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a n k y o u C h a i r f o r c l a r i ty. I t h i n k w h a t c o n fu s e d m e w a s m o v in g fr o m t h e R FI t o t h e R F P y e s because … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W e h a v e n o t s u b m it t e d t h e R F P y e t . Th is w a s … CHAIRPERSON: R e m e m b e r y o u a s k e d h e r w h e th e r h e r q u e s t i o n r e l a t e d to t h e R F I o r R F P a n d th e n s h e w a s c l a r i fy i n g to y o u . She c la r i fi e d t o y o u t o s a y n o I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t th e R F P. Yo u h a d t h e R F I 10 fir s t. Yo u h a d t h e – th e n y o u h a d t h e R F P. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: (Intervenes). C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e e v e n a s k e d y o u d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d th e – d o y o u k n o w t h e d is t in c ti o n a n d y o u s a i d y e s y o u k n o w it . S o t h e n s h e s a i d i n e ffe c t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e R F P n o w. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: So are – are you aware that 18 March 2016 was the d e a d l in e f o r s u b m i t ti n g t h e b i d i n r e s p o n s e to t h e R F P ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I c a n n o t s a y th a t b e c a u s e I d o n o t – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r n o w t h e d e t a ils . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e t a k e y o u t o i t. Yo u w il l f in d i t i n y o u r s o f t fi l e i n f r o n t o f y o u w h i c h c o n t a i n s th e B N P b i d . Yo u w il l r e c a l l t h a t is t h e o n e w e h a v e c r e a t e d f o r t o d a y ’s p u r p o s e s a n d if y o u g o t o t h e Page 89 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 in t e r n a l n u m b e r i n g o n t h a t p a g e 1 0 o f 5 5 w h ic h C h a ir fo r t h e r e c o r d is in M s S ti m p e l’s b u n d l e w h i c h is E X H I B I T D D 1 a t p a g e 3 - 8 - 1 . CHAIRPERSON: I have got it. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M r M a h l a n g u y o u w il l s e e t h e r e i t is t h e th ir d li n e d o n e . I t s a y s : “Closing date or time 18 March 2016.” Do you see that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u s a t is fi e d t h a t th a t w a s t h e c l o s i n g d a t e 10 t h e n fo r b id s u b m is s i o n s i n r e s p o n s e t o th e R F P ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . Mr Mahlangu let me explain why t h a t l in e o f q u e s ti o n i n g is r e l e v a n t b e c a u s e i t is a f o l lo w o n fr o m t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s t i o n e a r l ie r. T h e C h a i r ’s q u e s ti o n w a s w h a t l e v e l o f i n te g r a ti o n d i d y o u e n g a g e u p o n b e f o r e y o u e n t e r e d i n t o t h is j o in t v e n t u r e w i t h I n l in e Tr a d in g a n d I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r a n s w e r to b e w e ll t h e r e w a s li t tl e ti m e i n w h ic h w e c o u ld d o e x t e n s iv e c h e c k i n g a n d th a t i s w h y I n e e d e d t o p u t t o y o u th a t i t is c e r t a i n l y t h e c a s e t h a t th e r e w a s a s h o r t p e r i o d o f t i m e 20 f o r a s s p o n s o r s t o th e R F I b u t t h e a c t u a l b id s u b m is s i o n o c c u r r e d a f u l l m o n th la t e r a n d s o i n f a i r n e s s t o y o u I w o u l d l ik e t o a s k w h e th e r i t w a s n o t a v a i l a b le t o y o u i n th a t m o n th b e t w e e n 1 6 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 a n d 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 t o g e t m o r e i n f o r m a t io n a b o u t I n l in e Tr a d i n g b e f o r e y o u s u b m i tt e d y o u r b i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Thank Page 90 of 221 you C h a ir. Now I 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e t h e c o n f u s i o n c o m e s fr o m . A s fa r a s th e R F I w a s – y o u k n o w – i t is c o n c e r n e d t h e R F I h a d t o b e c o n c e r n e d a s a m a t t e r o f u r g e n c y y e s a n d – a n d a lr e a d y In li n e Tr a d i n g w a s p a r t o f t h a t p r o c e s s – t h e d e t a i l a n d d u r in g t h a t p e r i o d o b v i o u s l y th e – t h e S A A o ff ic ia ls h a d a c t u a ll y g o n e t h r o u g h a p a r ti c u la r p r o c e s s a n d t h e n w h e n th a t p r o c e s s w a s d o n e i t is o n ly t h e n th a t th e y is s u e d t o – t o c o m p a n i e s a n R F P y e s . I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t M s H o f m e y r is a s k i n g m e b u t th e d i ffi c u l t p a r t is w e h a v e a l r e a d y s t a r te d th is j o u r n e y w i t h I n l i n e Tr a d i n g r ig h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g fr o m t h e R F I s t a g e . 10 S o w e – w e a r e n o t d e a l i n g w i th I n li n e Tr a d in g w i t h a v i e w – w it h a s u s p i c i o u s v ie w t h a t t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g u n to w a r d . I n … C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y – m a y I s t o p y o u th e r e M r M a h la n g u ? Ta k e y o u r ti m e a n d ju s t l is t e n to th e q u e s ti o n c a r e f u lly, o k a y. T h e o n ly q u e s ti o n t h a t M s H o f m e y r h a s a s k e d y o u n o w i s w h e t h e r t h e m o n t h t h a t i s fr o m 1 6 F e b r u a r y to 1 8 M a r c h w a s n o t e n o u g h f o r y o u t o o b t a i n w h a t e v e r in f o r m a ti o n y o u m i g h t h a v e w is h e d to o b ta i n a b o u t I n l in e Tr a d in g . S o y o u r a n s w e r s h o u ld b e y e s i t w a s e n o u g h o r n o it w a s n o t e n o u g h a n d i f y o u a r e th e n a s k e d a f o l lo w u p q u e s ti o n t h e n y o u c a n d e a l w i th t h a t o r y o u c a n e x p l a in i f th e r e i s a n e e d fo r e x p la i n b u t l e t u s 20 fir s t g e t t h e a n s w e r to w h e t h e r t h a t w a s n o t e n o u g h ti m e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Fr o m 1 6 F e b r u a r y t o 1 8 M a r c h t o g e t w h a t e v e r in f o r m a ti o n y o u m a y h a v e w is h e d t o g e t a b o u t I n l in e Tr a d in g . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I think b e t w e e n t h a t ti m e a n d 1 8 M a r c h B N P C a p it a l h a d n o – a n y – w e w e r e Page 91 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 n o t a c t u a l ly in a p o s i ti o n – w e d i d n o t a c tu a l ly s e t – s e t f o r w a r d t o lo o k f o r a n y o t h e r i n f o r m a ti o n fr o m In li n e Tr a d i n g b e c a u s e i t w a s ju s t a f o ll o w o n – o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t n o y o u a r e n o t a n s w e r i n g th e q u e s t io n a g a i n a s l e a s t a s fo r m u l a te d b y m e . I f y o u w a n t e d to g e t m o r e i n f o r m a t i o n o n I n li n e Tr a d in g b e t w e e n 1 6 F e b r u a r y a n d 1 8 M a r c h w o u l d y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n e n o u g h ti m e o r d o y o u s a y t h a t t h a t w o u l d h a v e n o t b e e n e n o u g h ti m e f o r y o u to tr y a n d g e t m o r e i n fo r m a t i o n fr o m - a b o u t – o r a b o u t I n l in e Tr a d i n g ? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir n o w I a m lo s t . T h e r e y o u c a n a s s is t m e a g a in , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m tr y i n g t o a s s is t b u t m a y b e … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And I am confusing you. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I a m c o n f u s e d b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h e b e g in n i n g w h e n w e – w h e n w e a c t u a ll y e n t e r e d w h e n w e had an arrangement … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I t h in k l e t u s f o r g e t t h e b e g i n n i n g . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o , o k a y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o le t u s fo r g e t t h e b e g i n n in g . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W e – w e a r e g o in g t o k e e p o n g o i n g b a c k fo r to o lo n g . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t w a i t – j u s t w a i t . I s it – is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u s a id Page 92 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h e t i m e y o u h a d t o o b t a i n i n f o r m a t io n a b o u t o r fr o m In li n e Tr a d i n g b e f o r e s u b m i t ti n g th e r e s p o n s e to t h e R F I w a s t o o s h o r t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Tr u e – tr u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a t w a s – t h a t m e a n s y o u d i d n o t h a v e e n o u g h ti m e t o tr y a n d g e t w h a t e v e r i n fo r m a t io n y o u m a y h a v e w a n t e d t o g e t a b o u t In li n e Tr a d i n g . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? T h a t is w h a t – t h a t is t h e s ig n if ic a n c e o r y o u r a n s w e r t h a t t h e ti m e w a s s h o r t. 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . Th r o u g h y o u C h a ir i f y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t l e d to t h a t q u e s t io n – w h a t le d to th a t q u e s ti o n is y o u have asked me – you said to me in most instances before a business e n t e r s in t o a p a r tn e r s h i p w it h a n o t h e r b u s i n e s s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Yo u g u y s d o a s o r t o f a d u e d i li g e n c e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: HR. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s ; a n d th e n my r e s p o n s e w a s in t h i s p a r t ic u l a r c a s e o n e w e d id n o t h a v e ti m e y e s . Tw o , w e - s o m e c o m p a n i e s – I w il l g i v e a n e x a m p l e . F o r – w h e n – b e fo r e w e e n t e r i n to a n y a r r a n g e m e n t w i th t h a t c o m p a n y w e h a v e a lr e a d y d o n e a d u e d i li g e n c e in a d v a n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 93 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : S o t h e r e i s a ti m e – y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u d i d s a y th a t j a . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s b e s i d e s d o in g d u e d i li g e n c e in a d v a n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: W e h a v e a lr e a d y w o r k e d w i th t h is – s o m e o f – s o m e o f t h e s e c o m p a n i e s . W e m i g h t b e s i t t in g o n d i ff e r e n t s i d e s o f th e ta b le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : S o t h e y k n e w th a t w e e x i s t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d s a y th a t , y e s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s ; b u t i n th is p a r tic u la r c a s e fir s tly w e d id n o t a c t u a ll y – t o r e s p o n d t o y o u r q u e s t i o n – w e d id n o t h a v e t i m e to – fo r t h a t . Ac t u a l ly i t d i d n o t e v e n h i t u s t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e g iv e n th e r a te t h i n g s w e r e m o v in g … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : To s a y w a i t I t h i n k l e t u s c h e c k o u t w h o y o u a r e . T h e y h a v e a c tu a lly – p e r h a p s t h e y h a v e d o n e – t h e y h a v e d o n e th a t to u s – y o u k n o w – b e c a u s e - y o u k n o w – th e y h a d t o … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: But we had not – we did not do t o t h a t t o th e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ; b u t h a n d o n Mr M a h la n g u – y o u k n o w – i f w e a r e Page 94 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 g o i n g t o s p e n d s o m u c h t i m e o n o n e q u e s ti o n w e w i ll n o t fi n i s h t o d a y. W e w i ll n o t f in is h to m o r r o w o k a y. L e t u s – l e t u s t r y a g a i n , o k a y. Yo u h a v e r e p e a t e d y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t a t le a s t o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y y o u d i d n o t d o a n y h o m e w o r k o n In li n e Tr a d i n g b e fo r e y o u s u b m i t t e d y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h e R F I w a s t h a t t h e t i m e w a s li m i te d . Is t h a t r ig h t ? Yo u h a v e r e p e a te d . T h a t i s o n e o f th e r e a s o n s a t l e a s t . A m I r ig h t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Is o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y y o u d id n o t d o w h a t y o u c a l l d u e d i li g e n c e o n I n l in e Tr a d in g b e f o r e r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e R F I – w a s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s t h a t t h e t i m e a v a il a b l e y o u - t o y o u t o d o t h a t w a s s h o r t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir b u t c a n I q u a l i fy it ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O h j a . W h a t is th e q u a li f ic a t io n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e q u e s ti o n is I t h i n k w e a r e m a k i n g a n a s s u m p ti o n h e r e a n d t h a t is a s s u m p t io n i s c a n I fi n is h C h a ir 20 ju s t o n e s e c o n d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, fi n i s h . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t a s s u m p t io n i s w h e n w e e n t e r w i t h a n y b u s i n e s s w e d o a d u e d ili g e n c e a n d th a t a s s u m p ti o n – Page 95 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h a t is a n a s s u m p t io n w e m a k in g a n d w e d o n o t . I d o n o t th in k a l l t h e s e c o m p a n i e s d o th a t o th e r w i s e w e w i ll n o t m o v e f o r w a r d . S o t h a t i s a n a s s u m p t io n y o u a r e m a k i n g . So now I am – am put in a corner where I am supposed to – I a m s u p p o s e d to a c t u a l ly r e s p o n d t o s a y I w a s s u p p o s e d t o a d m i t a d u e d i li g e n c e b u t t h e r e is a q u e s ti o n o f ti m e b u t p e r h a p s m a y b e I h a d m o r e ti m e w h y d i d I n o t d o i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . L e t u s – l e t u s d o t h is . I th in k I d id a s k y o u th e q u e s ti o n a f t e r y o u h a d r e s p o n d e d t o th is . I t h i n k I d id a s k y o u 10 t h e q u e s t io n w h e t h e r y o u a g r e e d t h a t t h a t h o m e w o r k s h o u l d h a v e b e e n done but that there was no time. I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u r a n s w e r b u t I th o u g h t y o u a c c e p t e d t h a t th a t k i n d o f w h a t I c a ll e d h o m e w o r k s h o u ld h a v e b e e n d o n e . T h a t i s – t h a t i s n o t w h a t y o u s a i d ? I m is u n d e r s t o o d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: What b a s i c a lly I meant is in v a r i a b ly p e o p l e a c tu a l ly d o t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: We do it yes. CHAIRPERSON: Ja; but would BNP do that on somebody that … 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a n ts t o w o r k w it h t h e m a s a jo in t v e n tu r e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: D e fi n i t e l y b u t n o t – w e d o n o t a c t u a ll y d o t h a t o n a ll o f o u r p o t e n t i a l s o r t o f p a r t n e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o r m a lly y o u w o u l d d o t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. Page 96 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: But sometimes you do not? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s d e f in i te ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t . N o w a r e y o u a b l e to t e ll u s w h e n y o u d o i t a n d w h e n y o u d o n o t ? Is t h a t a p a r t i c u l a r c r i te r i o n th a t y o u u s e t o s a y w e ll w e w il l n o t d o i t i f – i f t h e e n t i ty is th is t y p e o f e n ti ty o r m i s s t h e s e k i n d s o f r e q u ir e m e n t s ? H o w d o y o u d e c id e y e s w e m u s t d o i t here? No we must not do it here? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Through you C h a ir it – it a c t u a ll y u s u a l ly t h r o u g h th e b u s i n e s s r e q u i r e m e n ts a t t h a t p o in t in t i m e . 10 So whatever o p p o r tu n it y th a t is there if fo r instance we get o p p o r t u n i ti e s o n a c o n ti n u o u s b a s is w h e n w e g e t p e o p l e to – y o u k n o w – p h o n i n g u s a n d s a y I a m s o a n d s o I n e e d a d v ic e o n t h is p a r tic u l a r is s u e . I c o m e fr o m t h is p a r t ic u l a r c o m p a n y. T h e n y o u a r e a b l e to s i t b a c k a n d s a y w h o a r e th e s e g u y s . W h o d o t h e y c o m e ? I m e a n – i f t h e y – i f t h e y c a m e t h r o u g h j u s t c a l li n g u s to s a y n o s o a n d s o g a v e m e y o u r n u m b e r a n d – y o u k n o w – a n d t h e y s a i d I m u s t a c t u a ll y t a lk t o y o u b la h , b l a h , b l a h . S o in e s s e n c e i f w e h a d t h e t i m e th e n w e w i ll l o o k a t t h i s c o m p a n y a n d e n g a g e f u r t h e r i f t h e r e is n o o p p o r t u n i ty – if f o r i n s t a n c e t h e r e i s n o o p p o r t u n i ty b u t t h e y 20 o p p o r t u n i ty i t i s – i t is g o in g to b e c o n c l u d e d f a r d o w n t h e l in e . T h e n w e h a v e t h e ti m e t o s i t d o w n a n d s a y a n d e n g a g e w it h t h o s e p e o p le f u r t h e r b u t in s o m e in s t a n c e s f e w – y o u k n o w – i t is a n o p p o r t u n i ty a n d – a n d y o u k n o w c e r t a i n in d i v i d u a ls a n d a c t u a l ly y o u m o v e a t g i v e n t h e t i m e c o n s tr a i n s a n d e v e r y t h i n g e l s e y o u m o v e b u t i t n o t l ik e – i t is n o t l ik e it is a p r e r e q u is i te t o s a y b e f o r e w e e n g a g e w it h Page 97 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a n y o n e w e h a v e t o a c t u a l ly m a k e s u r e t h a t w e u n d e r s t a n d w h o y o u a r e w h e r e y o u c o m e f r o m b e c a u s e w e a l l p u t o u r s e lv e s s e p a r a t e ly – d i ff e r e n t ly. CHAIRPERSON: S o w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t h e n to s a y w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g is t h a t n o r m a ll y d o th a t h o m e w o r k ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: But sometimes you do not? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . CHAIRPERSON: And that a lot depends whether you do it or not. A lot 10 d e p e n d s o n t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s a t t h e t i m e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w o u l d la r g e l y b e w h e th e r there is enough time to do the homework … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o th e r – a n d o t h e r f a c t o r s m a y b e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t w o u l d b e o n e o f t h e f a c to r s ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o w i n t h e c a s e o f I n l in e Tr a d i n g b e f o r e t h e s u b m is s io n o f y o u r r e s p o n s e to th e R FI m y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t – m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s e a r li e r t h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g b e c a u s e o f t i m e c o n s tr a i n ts a t l e a s t a s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s m a y b e th e r e – th e r e m a y b e o th e r s – y o u – y o u d id n o t d o t h a t h o m e w o r k ? Page 98 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No we did not. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t th a t p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u d id n o t w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s l i t tl e ti m e t o d o i t b e f o r e y o u – y o u h a d t o d e l iv e r t h e r e s p o n s e t o S A A . Is t h a t r i g h t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s th e r e w a s – t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir – t h e r e w a s li t tl e ti m e t o a c t u a ll y – t o b e i n c o u r ts h i p w i t h - w i t h I n li n e Tr a d in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Be cause most of the guys – you 10 k n o w – i n c o u r ts h i p w e k n o w t h e m a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y, a lr i g h t . W a s th e o th e r r e a s o n w h y y o u d i d n o t d o th a t h o m e w o r k a b o u t I n li n e Tr a d i n g b e f o r e s u b m i t t in g y o u r r e s p o n s e t o – to th e R FI w a s o n e o f th e r e a s o n s t h a t Mr M n g a d i h a d been referred to you by somebody that you knew quite well and knew as credible? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s o n e s o w e h a v e g o t a t l e a s t t w o r e a s o n s w h y 20 y o u d id n ’t d o i t , o n e t i m e c o n s tr a i n ts , tw o th e f a c t t h a t Mr M n g a d i h a d b e e n r e f e r r e d to y o u b y s o m e b o d y th a t y o u tr u s te d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: D e fi n i t e l y, t h a t’s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o w g o i n g b a c k t o M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s t io n le t ’s c o n fi n e o u r s e l v e s fo r n o w o n ly to t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r th e r e w a s e n o u g h ti m e b e tw e e n t h e 1 6 t h o f F e b r u a r y a n d th e 1 8 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 6 Page 99 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t o d o t h a t h o m e w o r k , w h e t h e r t h e r e m a y b e o th e r r e a s o n s w h y y o u m i g h t d e c id e n o t t o d o i t , w e c a n d e a l w i t h th a t . Wa s a m o n th e n o u g h ti m e t o d o w h a t e v e r h o m e w o r k y o u m i g h t h a v e w i s h e d to d o o n In li n e Tr a d in g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, I th i n k t h e ti m e w a s s u ff ic ie n t a n d I m e a n a m o n th i s a s u ff ic i e n t ti m e , h o w e v e r, w e d i d n o t s e t fo r t h a t t h e b e g i n n in g t h a t w e w e r e g o in g to d o t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t ’s f in e s o is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t th a t th is w a s a c a s e th a t y o u d e c id e d t h a t y o u w e r e n o t g o in g t o d o t h a t 10 h o m e w o r k in r e g a r d t o I n li n e Tr a d in g , i s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g c o r r e c t . M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s th a t y o u a r e s a y i n g o r y o u m a y b e s a y in g t h a t in t h e c a s e o f I n li n e Tr a d in g y o u d e c i d e d th a t y o u were not going to do the homework that we are talking about? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, i t ’s n o t li k e w e d e c id e d , y e s it ’s n o t l ik e w e c o n s c i o u s l y s a t d o w n a n d s a i d a s fa r a s t h is c o m p a n y i s c o n c e r n e d w e ’r e a c t u a ll y n o t g o i n g t o d o t h is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u d i d n ’ t m a k e a n y s p e c i f ic d e c is i o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o i t w a s – a s I s a id C h a ir i t w a s b a s e d o n w h a t w a s a v a il a b l e , I m e a n , e v e n in h is e m a i l Mr M n g a d i 20 w i ll te ll y o u ti m e is o f e s s e n c e s o w h e n w e a c t u a ll y g o t t h e r e , w e w e r e ju s t r u n n i n g , t h e r e w a s n o q u e s ti o n o f o k a y fir s t , b e f o r e w e r u n , b y th e w a y w h o y o u a r e le t ’s u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e y o u c o m e fr o m b e c a u s e w e d i d n ’ t h a v e t h a t l u x u r y o f ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t s o I t h in k w e h a v e M s H o f m e y r I’ v e t a k e n o v e r y o u r q u e s t io n b u t I t h i n k th a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i s , o n e , Page 100 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 y o u d id n ’ t d o a n y h o m e w o r k a b o u t In li n e Tr a d i n g b o t h b e fo r e y o u s u b m i tt e d y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h e R F I a n d b e fo r e y o u s u b m it t e d y o u r b id in r e s p o n s e t o t h e R F P i s th a t c o r r e c t , y o u d i d n o t , a s a m a t te r o f f a c t y o u d id n o t d o i t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u d i d n o t m a k e a s p e c i f ic d e c is i o n n o t t o d o i t , it ju s t d i d n ’ t h a p p e n . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u , I ’d j u s t lik e to f o l lo w u p o n s o m e t h i n g y o u s a id i n y o u r a n s w e r to t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s ti o n s I t h in k y o u s a i d s o m e t h in g a b o u t y o u k n e w t h e g u y s o r y o u w e r e i n c o u r ts h i p , I ’ m n o t s u r e I g o t t h e w o r d c o r r e c tl y i n r e l a ti o n t o I n li n e Tr a d in g d i d I m is u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e , I t h o u g h t y o u g a v e t h a t a s a r e a s o n f o r why you didn’t do homework? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, y e s t h a t ’s a m is u n d e r s t a n d in g y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d id y o u s a y a b o u t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 I said there was not enough ti m e t o b e i n c o u r ts h i p . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t I u n d e r s t a n d , n o t e n o u g h t i m e , th a n k y o u . M r M a h l a n g u , y o u w e r e th e p e r s o n w h o s ig n e d a t t h e v a r i o u s p o in t s w e ’v e g o n e t o i n th e b i d s u b m i s s i o n f o r B n P C a p i t a l i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . D i d y o u s a t is fy y o u r s e l f a s t o t h e c o r r e c t n e s s Page 101 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 o f t h e f a c ts t h a t w e r e p r e s e n t e d i n th a t b i d s u b m is s i o n b e fo r e y o u s ig n e d i n t h o s e p la c e s a n d b e fo r e y o u s u b m i t te d th e b i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , j u s t t o p ic k u p t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u r le g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e to o k u p a b o u t a s u b - c o n tr a c to r r o l e b e t w e e n B n P C a p it a l a n d In li n e Tr a d i n g ju s t a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t , i s y o u r r e a d i n g o f y o u r b i d s u b m is s i o n th e s a m e a s m i n e , i n t h a t a t n o p o i n t i n t h a t b i d s u b m is s io n i s I n li n e Tr a d i n g e v e r r e f e r r e d t o a s a s u b - c o n t r a c t o r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 A r e y o u a s k i n g w h e th e r it ’s y e s o r n o , th r o u g h y o u C h a i r ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s l e t m e – s o m e t i m e s tw o n e g a t iv e s i s u n h e l p f u l , is t h e r e a n y w h e r e i n t h e b id s u b m is s i o n w h e r e I n l in e Tr a d i n g is r e f e r r e d t o a s a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r. O k a y t a k e i t f o r n o w, C h a ir i f i t b e c o m e s c o n te n ti o u s I’ m s u r e my l e a r n e d f r i e n d w i ll d ir e c t m e t o i t , a s I r e a d t h e b i d s u b m is s i o n , th e r e ’s n o in d ic a ti o n e v e r t h a t it i s a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r, I’ v e ta k e n y o u t o t h e p a g e , w e l o o k e d a t i t j u s t n o w w h e r e i t i s c l e a r ly r e fe r e n c e d a s e i t h e r y o u r c o n s o r ti u m o r y o u r J V p a r t n e r, d o y o u r e c a l l 20 that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, p e o p l e c a n b e i n a c o n s o r t iu m b u t i n t h a t c o n s o r ti u m t h e r e c a n b e s u b c o n tr a c to r s b u t I c o n c u r w it h M s H o f m e y r t h a t t h e r e w a s n o p o i n t w h e r e I n li n e Tr a d in g w a s a c t u a l ly m e n ti o n e d a s s u b - c o n tr a c t o r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u a n d a r e y o u a w a r e t h a t t h e b i d Page 102 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 r e fe r r e d t o i t a s B n P ’s p a r t n e r a t v a r io u s p o i n ts ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Thank you, then I don’t need to take you to t h a t p a g e b u t y o u c e r t a i n ly d e f in e d th e m a s y o u r p a r t n e r a n d y o u r e fe r r e d t o b o t h o f y o u r s e l v e s a s th e p a r t ie s w h o w e r e s u b m i t ti n g th e b i d b u t t h a t ’s n o t c o n t e n t io u s s o w e d o n ’t n e e d to g o th e r e , th a n k y o u . M r M a h l a n g u w e w e r e a t th e p o i n t o f y o u r t e s ti m o n y w h e r e w e w e r e tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d w h y I n l in e Tr a d i n g w a n t e d t o p a r t n e r w it h y o u t o m a k e th is b i d s u b m is s i o n , y o u ’l l r e c a ll t h a t a n d t h e q u e s t io n th a t I w a s 10 a c t u a ll y a s k i n g , i f w e g o b a c k t o p a g e 1 2 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u ’ ll r e c a ll w e w e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 5 .1 o n th a t p a g e a n d I w a s b r e a k in g i t u p b e c a u s e i t c o n ta i n s i m p o r t a n t in f o r m a t io n a b o u t w h a t M r M n g a d i s a i d t o y o u , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e , f o r j u s ti fy i n g t h e p a r tn e r s h ip a n d t h e o n e w e w e r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t w a s y o u r B r o a d - B a s e d B la c k E c o n o m ic E m p o w e r m e n t c r e d e n t ia ls a n d I a s k e d y o u w h y Mr M n g a d i n e e d e d B n P f o r th a t p u r p o s e a n d t h e q u e s t io n f o l lo w e d fr o m t h a t , d id I n li n e Tr a d in g n o t h a v e t h o s e c r e d e n t i a ls , w h a t i s y o u r a n s w e r t o th a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: In li n e Tr a d i n g d i d h a v e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t d i d h a v e ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Th a n k y o u , s o th a t w o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n a r e a s o n f o r th e m n e e d in g to p a r tn e r w i t h y o u , c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s s o m e o f t h e r e a s o n s , y e s correct. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u s o w e ’v e a lr e a d y e li m i n a t e d t h a t Page 103 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h e y n e e d e d y o u f o r c a p i t a l r a i s i n g e x p e r ie n c e b e c a u s e t h a t w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e te n d e r, w e ’v e e l i m i n a t e d t h a t t h e y n e e d e d y o u f o r Br o a d B a s e d Bl a c k E c o n o m i c E m p o w e r m e n t c r e d e n t ia ls a n d th e n t h e t h i r d o n t h a t p a g e i s t h e c r e d i b i li t y o f y o u r f ir m a n d c o m p e t e n c y a n d p r o v e n tr a c k r e c o r d t o e x e c u t e s i m i la r tr a n s a c ti o n s o r p r o j e c ts a s t h e , th e n in t e n d e d p r o j e c t , c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u e n q u ir e … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: 10 I ’ m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r, I ju s t w a n t to m e n t i o n t h i s , e a r l ie r o n y o u r e fe r r e d M r M a h la n g u t o – I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r t h e p a g e b u t I t h in k it w a s t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t t h e y s u b m it t e d t o S A A a n d s o m e w h e r e a t t h e t o p o f th e p a g e t o w h ic h y o u r e fe r r e d u s t h e r e w a s a r e fe r e n c e t o , I t h i n k I n li n e Tr a d i n g h a v i n g h a d s o m e t h i n g l ik e c e r ta in e x p e r i e n c e o f o v e r t e n y e a r s o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t. I d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u w e r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h t h a t l a te r b u t I t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s s o m e th in g t h a t s ti ll n e e d e d t o b e ti e d u p t h e r e s o I ’ m j u s t s a y i n g i f i t’s i n y o u r p la n i t ’s fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , i n d e e d , C h a ir it a c t u a ll y c o m e s i n r i g h t n o w b e c a u s e i t ’s p a r t o f th is t h ir d j u s ti f ic a t io n r i g h t. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : t h e t h ir d ju s t i fi c a t i o n a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , a n d Mr M a h l a n g u , i n f a ir n e s s t o y o u , t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e s e q u e s t i o n s a r e b e i n g a s k e d is b e c a u s e , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e n g a g e m e n t w it h M r M n g a d i o n t h a t 9 t h o f F e b r u a r y, h e p r e s e n t e d t o y o u a s th o u g h h e h a d a w e a l t h o f e x p e r i e n c e a b o u t S A A , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: He had – wealth, I’m not sure Page 104 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 w h a t th a t m e a n s … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fi n e le t ’s c o n fi n e i t , e x p e r ie n c e … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON: L e ts s a y a l o t o f e x p e r i e n c e , is th a t g o o d e n o u g h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s t h a n k y o u . S A A w a s h i s c l ie n t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o w h a t I’ m p r o b i n g i s , w h y t h e n , d o e s M r M n g a d i a n d h is c o m p a n y, I n l i n e Tr a d in g n e e d B n P C a p i ta l , t h a t i s w h e r e t h i s l in e o f q u e s t i o n in g is g o i n g a n t h e t h ir d th a t y o u ’ v e o ff e r e d is b e c a u s e y o u r e n t it y – I ’ m a t p a g e 1 2 , h a d c o m p e t e n c y a n d a p r o v e n 10 tr a c k r e c o r d to e x e c u te s i m il a r tr a n s a c ti o n s , r ig h t d o y o u s e e t h a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : p r e c i s e ly where this Ye s . A n d C h a ir t h a t is , in f a c t , w i th r e s p e c t point comes in because a c c o r d in g to th e in f o r m a ti o n th a t Mr M n g a d i h a d g iv e n y o u r c o ll e a g u e , M r M o y o , In li n e Tr a d in g h a d th a t v e r y e x p e r i e n c e , d o y o u r e m e m b e r th a t p a g e t h a t w e w e n t to , i t ’s t h e p a g e th a t c o p y a n d p a s t e d w h a t M r M n g a d i h a d s a id in t h a t e m a i l o n th e 1 3 t h o f F e b r u a r y, d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I r e c a ll b u t i t d o e s n ’t h a v e s i m il a r e x p e r i e n c e t o u s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ta k e u s th r o u g h t h a t , le t ’s ju s t r e m e m b e r w h a t w a s s a id , i f y o u g o to – i t ’s p a g e 1 4 4 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t u n d e r t a b 2 2 , t h a t is t h e e m a i l t h a t w e ’v e l o o k e d a t p r e v io u s ly w h e r e M r M n g a d i t e ll s M r M o y o w h a t d e s c r ip t io n h e p r o p o s e s b e in c l u d e d i n t h e p r o p o s a l a n d a t t h e b o t to m t h e r e i n q u o ta t io n s , is th e l a n g u a g e th a t w e la t e r s a w i n t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t th e C h a i r w a s r e fe r r in g t o . Page 105 of 221 I n l i n e Tr a d in g 1 0 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 P r o p r ie t a r y L i m i t e d ’s e x p e r i e n c e is i n f u n d s m a n a g e m e n t , a u to m o t iv e a n d t h e a v i a t i o n s e c t o r, In li n e Tr a d i n g ’s e x p e r ti s e a n d tr a c k r e c o r d h a s b e e n a c c u m u l a t e d f o r a p e r io d i n e x c e s s o f t e n y e a r s , a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t is n o t t h e c r e d e n ti a ls a n d e x p e r ie n c e a n d tr a c k r e c o r d y o u w o u l d bring? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, t h e e x p e r i e n c e th a t h a s a c tu a l ly b e e n h i g h li g h t e d i n t h a t e m a i l w e r e n o t th e e x p e r i e n c e r e q u ir e d b y t h e R F P. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 S o e x p e r ie n c e in t h e a v i a ti o n s e c t o r w a s n o t r e l e v a n t t o th e R F P ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A v ia t io n s e c t o r i t w a s r e l e v a n t y e s , b u t it w a s n o t th e c r u x o f i t , i t w a s j u s t o n e o f t h o s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , w e ’ ll f o l lo w t h a t u p la t e r in t e r m s o f t h e r o le s t h a t e a c h o f y o u w e r e t o p l a y in p e r f o r m i n g t h e w o r k b u t fo r n o w, t h e r e w a s a ls o a n in d ic a t i o n i n y o u r m e e ti n g , a s I h a v e y o u r s t a te m e n t , w h a t I n li n e Tr a d i n g w a s g o i n g t o b r i n g t o th e J V d o y o u r e c a l l th a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Ye s I d o . I f w e g o to p a g e 1 3 f o r t h a t , y o u ’ ll p ic k it u p a t p a r a g r a p h 5 .6 . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e t h e r e y o u b e g in w i t h , “ O n th e o th e r h a n d Mr M n g a d i o ffe r e d to b e in v o lv e d t h r o u g h h is c o m p a n y, n a m e ly I n l i n e Tr a d i n g o n t h e b a s is t h a t I n li n e Tr a d in g ” Page 106 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A n d t h e n y o u s e t o u t t h e s e r ie s o f t h i n g s a s I r e a d y o u r s t a te m e n t t h a t I n l in e Tr a d i n g w a s g o i n g to b r in g t o t h e J V, is t h a t a f a ir r e a d in g o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , s o th e f ir s t is t h a t i t h a d k n o w l e d g e o f S A A a n d it s f i n a n c ia l n e e d s , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . A n d h a d y o u e s t a b li s h e d w h e th e r it h a d c o n tr a c te d b e f o r e w i th S A A ? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o C h a ir. B u t c e r t a i n l y y o u u n d e r s to o d M r M n g a d i h a d b e e n a c o n s u l t a n t t o S A A is t h a t r ig h t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s t h r o u g h t h e i n f o r m a ti o n y e s , t h r o u g h o u r d is c u s s i o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s th a t ’s w h a t h e s a i d a b s o l u te ly. It – at 5 .6 . 2 h a d k n o w le d g e o f th e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e R F I a n d w o u l d t h e r e f o r e p r o v i d e t h e i n p u t – p r o v id e i n p u t in t h e p r o p o s a l f o r tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r y w o r k a s r e q u ir e d b y S A A , i s t h a t w h a t h e c o n v e y e d t o y o u a t t h a t m e e ti n g ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t h e o n e I’ d l ik e to j u s t s p e n d a b i t o f ti m e o n a t 5 . 6 . 3 , “ I n l in e Tr a d i n g w o u ld b e t h e p r i m a r y c o n t a c t p e r s o n b e t w e e n t h e c o n s o r ti u m a n d S A A ” , Do you see that. Page 107 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a i r I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t g o e s o n t o s a y, “ T h i s m e a n t t h a t In li n e Tr a d in g w o u ld h a n d l e a l l th e n e c e s s a r y c o m m u n ic a ti o n w it h S A A o n b e h a l f o f t h e c o n s o r t i u m ” , Is th a t w h a t w a s c o n v e y e d t o y o u a t t h a t m e e ti n g w i t h Mr M n g a d i? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s a m a t t e r o f f a c t M r M a h l a n g u , I n l i n e Tr a d i n g d i d n ’ t e v e r o n c e c o m m u n ic a t e w i t h S A A d id i t ? 10 CHAIRPERSON: A t le a s t f o r m a l ly. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : Ye s f o r m a ll y, y e s th e y c o u l d n ’ t h a v e d o n e s o b e c a u s e th e y w e r e p a r t o f th e t e a m . CHAIRPERSON: Because they were? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Part of the team, what I’m u n d e r s t a n d in g is – t h e q u e s ti o n is , I n l i n e Tr a d in g h a s n e v e r a c tu a lly h a d a n y c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i th S A A y e s a s I n l in e Tr a d i n g o n i t ’s o w n . W h a t I ’ m s a y in g i s t h e y w e r e p a r t o f th e te a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t t h e n w h a t d i d i t m e a n w h e n M r M n g a d i s a i d t o y o u In li n e Tr a d in g w ill h a n d l e a ll t h e n e c e s s a r y c o m m u n ic a ti o n 20 with SAA? CHAIRPERSON: W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h a t s t a t e m e n t fr o m M r M n g a d i , th a t ’s th e q u e s t io n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s g iv e n t h a t h e u n d e r s ta n d a ll t h e – y o u k n o w t h e c li e n t h e ’s c lo s e r to t h e c l ie n t t o u n d e r s t a n d th e ir n e e d s s o h e ’s a c t u a l l y w e ll p o s i ti o n e d t o a c tu a l ly Page 108 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t a lk t o th e c li e n t, u n d e r s ta n d w h a t t h e c li e n t n e e d s a n d c o m e a n d f e e d b a c k t o u s a n d w h a t b a s ic a l ly th is – w h a t h e a c tu a l ly a s k e d t o d o it ’s n o t in a n y w a y d i ffe r e n t fr o m o u r d a y - t o - d a y b u s i n e s s w h e r e w e a c t u a ll y e n t e r i n t o th is k i n d o f a r r a n g e m e n t w e a c t u a l ly c o v e r o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s and one of th e r e s p o n s i b il it i e s – some of th e r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s w o u l d b e a c t u a l ly a p e r s o n w h o ’s c l o s e r t o t h e c li e n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e c li e n t’s n e e d s a n d a c t u a l ly c o m m u n ic a t e b a c k to t h e t e a m a n d t h is i s w h a t – t h is is t h e r o le th a t a c t u a ll y M r M n g a d i p l a y e d in t h is a s s i g n m e n t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h i s w o u ld r e l a t e t o – i f f o r t h e p e r i o d a f te r t h e b i d w o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n t o y o u i f y o u w e r e s u c c e s s fu l , a f t e r t h e t e n d e r w o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n t o y o u i f y o u w e r e s u c c e s s fu l , t h a t’s t h e c o m m u n ic a t i o n p e r i o d t h a t t h i s w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s th a t ’s tr u e s ir. A n d a f t e r t h e b i d w a s s u b m i t te d w a s i t g o i n g t o b e r e s p o n s ib l e f o r a l l t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I t h in k w e c a n – th r o u g h y o u C h a ir, y e s I m e a n i t’s e v i d e n t i n t h e e m a i ls t h a t f o l lo w e d a f te r t h e s u b m is s io n o f t h a t p a r tic u la r b id . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r M n g a d i – I ’ll c o m e b a c k t o t h a t i n a m o m e n t b u t i f y o u g o to p a g e 1 6 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t , y o u a r e s u m m a r i s i n g t h e r e t h e d o m i n a n t r o l e a t t h e b o t to m o f th e p a g e , p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 2 t h a t M r M n g a d i a s s u m e d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f t h e b id a n d o th e r la t e r w o r k a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 2 y o u s a y, “ M r M n g a d i a s s u m e d a d o m i n a n t r o le in r e s p e c t o f t h e Page 109 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 f o ll o w i n g , t h e f ir s t is p r e p a r in g th e s o u r c i n g o f f u n d s p r o p o s a l a n d o v e r t h e p a g e , d r a f t in g r e l e v a n t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h ic h I w o u ld , in m o s t in s t a n c e s s i g n o ff u n d e r t h e B n P C a p i ta l l o g o o r le t t e r h e a d a n d s e n d o ff t o c l ie n t ” , C a n w e s t o p th e r e fo r a m o m e n t , d i d y o u lo o k a t th o s e l e t te r s c a r e fu ll y b e fo r e y o u s e n t t h e m o ff ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, y e s I th i n k – n o t n e c e s s a r i ly c a r e f u l b e c a u s e s o m e – I h a d a t e a m o f a b o u t th r e e in d i v i d u a ls w h o w e r e a c tu a lly r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h is s o M r M n g a d i w a s 10 c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i t h t h e m s o a s a n d w h e n th e y ’r e s a ti s f i e d w i th th e c o n te n t o f i t t h e n t h e y w o u l d a c t u a ll y s e n d i t t o m e j u s t f o r m e t o f o r w a r d i t a n d i n s o m e in s t a n c e s I’ ll l o o k a t i t a n d in s o m e i n s t a n c e s I ’ d s a y – a n d th e q u e s ti o n b u t i n m o s t in s t a n c e s I ’ d a c t u a l ly l o o k a t i t g iv e n th e r i s k a n d r e w a r d o f t h e p r o p o s a l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h o w o u l d c h e c k th e fa c tu a l a c c u r a c y o f w h a t w a s b e i n g s ta t e d i n t h o s e l e tt e r s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e t e a m a t t h e o ffi c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e t e a m w i th i n B n P ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: I s t h e p o s i t io n th a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g t h a t s o m e ti m e s y o u w o u ld r e a d w h a t’s p u t b e f o r e y o u f o r s i g n i n g b u t s o m e ti m e s y o u w o u ld a s k t h e p e r s o n b r i n g in g i t o r t h e te a m o r a m e m b e r o f t h e t e a m whether everything was in order and if they assured you that everything w a s i n o r d e r w i t h t h e l e tt e r o r th e e m a i l t h e n y o u w o u l d s ig n o ff? Page 110 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e s ir, s o i n most in s t a n c e s t h e – m y e le c t r o n i c s ig n a tu r e w a s u s e d , a c t u a ll y i n a l l o f t h e s e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s s o t h e y w o u ld a c t u a l ly s e n d i t t o m e c o m p l e te , s o I ’d g o t h r o u g h it i f t h e r e a r e a n y – o r if t h e r e i s a n e e d y o u k n o w, d e p e n d in g o n th e d i s c u s s io n s w il l th e n j u s t s a y, y o u k n o w w e ’v e g o n e t h r o u g h t h i s , w e ’r e h a p p y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir, j u s t o n e p o i n t o f c l a r i fi c a t io n t h e r e , y o u m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o a n e l e c tr o n ic s ig n a tu r e , d i d y o u , h o w e v e r, 10 s a ti s f y y o u r s e l f a b o u t t h e l e t te r s b e f o r e y o u r e l e c tr o n ic s i g n a t u r e w a s a p p li e d t o th e l e t te r s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I t h i n k b a s e d o n w h a t I’ v e ju s t m e n ti o n e d t o t h e C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , I j u s t w a n te d to b e c l e a r. So if t h e r e w e r e f a c t u a l … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g . I just want to make sure t h e r e ’s no I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y w h e n th e l e t t e r s w e r e b r o u g h t t o y o u f o r a p p r o v a l , t h e e l e c tr o n ic s ig n a tu r e w a s a lr e a d y t h e r e b u t th e q u e s ti o n t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n a s k e d is w h e t h e r y o u w o u l d c h e c k 20 t h e i n f o r m a ti o n b e fo r e y o u r e l e c tr o n i c s i g n a t u r e w a s p u t o n i t a n d y o u s a i d y e s , s o I j u s t w a n te d to m a k e s u r e t h e r e ’s n o m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: The template that was used a lr e a d y h a d my e l e c tr o n ic s i g n a t u r e s o t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n w o u l d c o m e t h r o u g h m e w it h a n e l e c tr o n i c s i g n a t u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Page 111 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e n y o u w o u ld c h e c k i ts a c c u r a c y a n d o n o c c a s i o n s r e ly o n y o u r te a m , is th a t y o u r e v id e n c e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: Th a n k T h a t ’s tr u e . you, so if th e r e were fa c tu a l in a c c u r a c i e s i n th o s e l e t t e r s t h a t c a m e fr o m B n P t o o t h e r p a r ti e s , B n P w o u ld b e r e s p o n s i b le f o r th o s e , c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e c o n s o r t iu m w o u l d b e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o b u t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e t h e r e 10 w a s a t e a m w i t h i n B n P w h o w o u l d c h e c k t h e f a c ts t h a t w e r e s e t o u t in t h o s e le t t e r s , c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i f th o s e fa c ts a r e s h o w n t o b e fa ls e t h e n i t’s t h e B n P t e a m th a t w o u l d b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r n o t h a v in g g o t t h e f a c ts correct. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s th a t ’s tr u e . Th a n k y o u , t h e o th e r p o i n t I w a n t to p i c k u p o n , o n p a g e 1 7 w e w e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 1 2 a n d i ts s u b p a r a g r a p h s t h e r e is th a t a t 5 . 1 2 . 4 y o u i n d ic a te o n e o f t h e o t h e r r o l e s o f M r M n g a d i w a s t o 20 li a is e d ir e c t ly w i t h S A A a n d o th e r p a r ti e s , d o y o u s e e t h a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d o , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u I t h i n k y o u w e r e h e r e fo r s o m e o f t h e e v id e n c e o f Ms N h a n ts i s h e i n d ic a t e d i n h e r e v i d e n c e t h a t s h e ’s n e v e r m e t y o u , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . Page 112 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o a t n o p o in t o f y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts w it h S A A d i d y o u p h y s ic a l ly m e e t M s N h a n ts i? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o I h a v e n ’ t m e t h e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u m e e t a n y o n e e l s e a t S A A ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No I haven’t met her – I h a v e n ’t m e t a n y b o d y a t S A A . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u c o r r e s p o n d e d o n o c c a s i o n w i th p e o p le a t S A A i s th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . W h o w a s m e e t i n g w i t h S A A t h e n , fr o m y o u r s id e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It ’s M r M n g a d i . R i g h t a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e e v id e n c e M r M n g a d i p i t c h e d t h is J V t o y o u b e c a u s e In li n e Tr a d in g w a s g o in g t o p la y t h a t r o l e o f li a i s i n g w it h a n d c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i th S A A i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . T h e n Mr M n g a d i I n e e d t o p u t t o y o u w h a t is r e m a r k a b l e a b o u t a l l th e p a p e r s i n th is c a s e , is t h a t a t n o p o i n t is I n l i n e Tr a d in g i n a n y fo r m a l w a y in t e r a c ti n g w i t h S A A , i s t h a t s o m e th i n g y o u 20 w e r e a w a r e o f a t th e ti m e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, I ’ m M r Mahlangu. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s , I d o t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M a h l a n g u s h e d i d th e s a m e w i t h a n o t h e r w i tn e s s , it ’s n o t in t e n t i o n a l i t ’s j u s t t h a t s h e h a s t o d e a l w i th d i ff e r e n t n a m e s Page 113 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a n d I t h in k i t h a p p e n s t o t h e b e s t o f u s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: To r e s p o n d t o t h a t , i n o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g In li n e Tr a d i n g w a s r e p r e s e n t e d b y M r M n g a d i s o th e is s u e – w h a t I’ m n o t u n d e r s t a n d i n g n o w i s , it ’s a c t u a l ly y o u r q u e s t io n b e c a u s e a s fa r a s – i n o u r w o r l d … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y m a y b e – I a ls o t h o u g h t t h e r e m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g t h a t m ig h t c a u s e c o n f u s i o n . Yo u a c tu a lly s a i d , M s H o f m e y r w h a t w a s s tr a n g e w a s t h a t a t n o t s t a g e w a s I n li n e Tr a d i n g i n c o n t a c t – 10 in c o m m u n i c a t io n w i t h S A A , b a s e d o n w h a t y o u h a d s a i d , I e x p e c te d y o u – o r m a y b e , n o , n o I u n d e r s ta n d – I t h i n k t h e q u e s ti o n is in t e r m s o f w h a t y o u h a d a r r a n g e d w i t h I n l i n e Tr a d in g , i t w a s t h a t – y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t t h e y w o u ld - I n li n e Tr a d i n g w o u l d b e in c o m m u n ic a ti o n , w o u ld h a n d l e t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n p a r t w i t h S A A a n d I think Ms Hofmeyr was saying, and she w il l correct me if I m is u n d e r s t o o d h e r e q u e s t io n , w h a t i s s t r a n g e i s th a t th e r e w a s n o f o r m a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n t h a t e v e r c a m e fr o m I n l in e Tr a d i n g t o S A A , M s Hofmeyr am I right? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A ll t h e f o r m a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n c a m e fr o m B n P n o t I n li n e Tr a d in g , o r m o s t o f i t , I s a i d a ll b u t m a y b e m o s t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t ’s tr u e C h a i r n o w a m I s u p p o s e d t o r e s p o n d o r is i t j u s t a n o b s e r v a ti o n ? N o I t h o u g h t m a y b e Page 114 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 s h e w a s ju s t p a s s i n g a n o b s e r v a ti o n t o s a y th is i s n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In a u d i b l e m ic o ff ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o i n d e e d C h a ir I d o n ’t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e it ’s b e e n a l o n g m o r n in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t h a s b e e n a lo n g m o r n i n g b u t I d o n ’t t a k e i t t o b e m y r o le to m a k e o b s e r v a ti o n s I a m i n t e r e s te d i n y o u r c o m m e n t M r M a h l a n g u i n r e l a ti o n t o w h a t – w h e n y o u lo o k a t t h e s e p a p e r s , c a n b e observed. S o l e t m e b e c le a r a b o u t t h e q u e s ti o n , I u n d e r s t o o d M r M n g a d i t o s a y t o y o u w h e n y o u m e t o n t h e 9 t h o f F e b r u a r y th a t w h a t 10 I n li n e Tr a d i n g w a s g o i n g to b r i n g t o t h i s J V w a s i t w a s g o in g t o b e t h e e n t i ty r e s p o n s ib l e f o r a l l c o m m u n i c a t io n w i t h S A A , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . A n d is i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h e r e is n o t a s i n g l e l e t t e r o n a l e t t e r h e a d o f In li n e Tr a d in g t h a t y o u a r e a w a r e o f th a t e v e r w e n t t o SAA? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir i t c o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n i n th a t p a r t ic u l a r fa s h i o n b e c a u s e o f t h e a r r a n g e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y n o l e t’s s t a r t w i t h , is i t tr u e t h a t y o u a r e n o t a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a n y l e t te r fr o m I n li n e Tr a d i n g th a t w e n t t o S A A 20 a n d i f th e a n s w e r i s y e s , I’ m n o t a w a r e t h e n w e c a n t a k e i t – w e c a n m o v e f o r w a r d . S o s h e ’s ju s t a s k i n g y o u a t th is s t a g e … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I’ m n o t a w a r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r M a h l a n g u I u n d e r s ta n d y o u t o w a n t t o e x p l a i n w h y t h a t w a s t h e c a s e , w h y w a s t h e r e n o c o m m u n i c a t io n fr o m Page 115 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 I n li n e Tr a d in g to S A A ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It ’s because of th e a r r a n g e m e n t, i f y o u l o o k a t , e v e n t h e le t t e r o f a p p o in t m e n t , t h a t B n P C a p it a l w a s a p p o i n te d a n d w e w o r k w i t h In li n e Tr a d i n g s o a ll t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n th a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e d o n e t h r o u g h t h e l e tt e r h e a d o f B n P C a p i ta l fo r c o n s i s te n c y a s a c t u a l ly a s a s t a n d a r d w it h a ll o u r o th e r c o n tr a c t s . I f t h e r e ’s a c o n tr a c t – i f a p a r t ic u l a r i n d iv id u a l , f o r i n s ta n c e e v e n t h e o n e t h a t I ’v e m e n ti o n e d , D e l o i t te , D e l o i t t e w o u l d a c t u a l ly s e n d a l l t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n t o th e 10 c li e n t . I f w e ’v e g o t o p i n i o n s w e ’ d a c t u a ll y ( i n d is ti n c t) t o t h e ir o p i n io n s s e n d t h e m w h a t e v e r o u r in p u ts a r e a n d th e n t h e y w o u l d a c t u a l ly d o th a t c o m m u n ic a ti o n . S o w e w o u l d n ’ t s e n d c li e n ts d i ff e r e n t e m a i ls o t h e r w is e t h e r e w o u ld b e a c o n f u s i o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u a t t h e t i m e t h a t y o u b i d fo r th is tender were you aware that Mr Mngadi was employed at Nedbank? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No I wasn’t aware only – no I wasn’t aware. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B y w h e n d i d y o u l e a r n t h a t h e w a s e m p lo y e d a t N e d b a n k , i f a t a ll ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: When there was a paper – a m e d i a t h a t a c t u a ll y s p o k e a b o u t i t, i t’s o n ly t h e n t h a t I o n l y b e c a m e aware. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t N e d b a n k w a s b i d d i n g f o r t h is t e n d e r a t t h e t i m e t h a t B n P b i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Page 116 of 221 A t t h e ti m e B n P b i d , n o I 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 wasn’t aware but I got aware of it when it was in the media. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , C h a ir I s e e w e ’r e ju s t p a s t t h e lu n c h b r e a k s c h e d u le d ti m e , i f i t ’s a p p r o p r i a t e w e c a n t a k e t h e b r e a k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s j u s t b e fo r e w e d o t h a t , I j u s t w a n t t o g o b a c k to t h is q u e s t io n o f c o m m u n i c a t io n , y o u s a i d t h a t fr o m a c e r t a i n t i m e , I t h i n k m a y b e t h a t ’s fr o m t h e d a t e o f a p p o i n t m e n t B n P b e c a m e th e p a r ty t h a t w o u l d c o m m u n i c a t e w i th S A A b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e t h e r e w o u ld b e c o n fu s i o n i f B n P w o l d c o m m u n i c a t e w i t h S A A a n d I n li n e Tr a d in g w o u l d 10 a ls o d o th e s a m e , is th a t c o r r e c t – is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t o f w h a t you said? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e fo r m a l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir y e s , t h e f o r m a l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: The formal correspondence? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s w o u ld b e d o n e th r o u g h B n P C a p i t a l b u t In li n e Tr a d i n g w o u ld a c t u a lly m e e t w i t h t h e c l ie n t , u n d e r s t a n d t h e ir n e e d s a n d c o m e a n d f e e d b a c k t o u s a n d t h e n w e ’ d a c t u a ll y w o r k o n t h a t a n d f e e d b a c k t o t h e c li e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t b e f o r e t h e le t t e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t 20 the arrangement was th a t In li n e Tr a d i n g would h a n d le all c o m m u n ic a ti o n w h i c h w o u ld in c l u d e fo r m a l c o m m u n ic a t i o n a n d i n f o r m a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n b u t t h a t a f t e r t h e l e tt e r o f a p p o i n t m e n t th is c h a n g e d . T h e f o r m a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n w o u l d b e h a n d le d b y B n P b u t I n li n e w o u l d h a v e in f o r m a l c o m m u n ic a t i o n w i t h S A A ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: F o r m a l – t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, I Page 117 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h i n k f o r m a l c o m m u n ic a t i o n a n d i n fo r m a l i t’s – a s f a r a s – b e c a u s e w h a t we wanted to do was maintain consistency so m e a n in g c o m m u n ic a ti o n is m a y b e t h a t i s f o r m a l w h e r e y o u g o a n d formal meet the c li e n t , I w o u ld a s s u m e t h a t is fo r m a l a s w e l l b u t a s f a r a s w h a t a c tu a l ly g e t s p u t o n a le t t e r h e a d a n d t h e n i t’s s e n t t o c l ie n t g iv e n t h a t t h e c l ie n t o n ly k n o w s – c o m m u n ic a t e s w i th u s f o r m a lly, a s fa r a s is s u e s a r e c o n c e r n e d s o th a t ’s h o w w e a c t u a lly d i d i t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y m a y b e w e ’ ll ta lk a b o u t i t f u r t h e r a f te r lu n c h , le t ’s ta k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t t e n p a s t t w o , w e a d jo u r n . 10 INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e h a v e b e e n c h a ll e n g e s t h e p a s t fe w d a y s a n d la s t w e e k a n d s t a r ti n g e x a c tly t h e ti m e t h a t I s a i d w e s h o u l d s t a r t a n d t h e c h a l le n g e h a s b e e n fr o m m e n o t fr o m a n y b o d y. I a m g o in g to fi n d a w a y a s t o h o w t o d e a l w it h m e e t in g s t h a t I a l lo w t o h a p p e n d u r i n g t h e b r e a k s b e c a u s e w e e n d u p n o t fi n i s h i n g o n ti m e b u t t h a t i s m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty s o w e w i ll tr y a n d i m p r o v e o n t h a t . Ms H o f m e y r a r e y o u ready? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d w e a r e t h a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir j u s t t o o r i e n ta t e o u r s e lv e s f o r t h e a ft e r n o o n I e n v i s a g e t h a t w e m a y n e e d t o s i t a b it b e y o n d f o u r o ’c lo c k in o r d e r t o c o m p le t e M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v id e n c e . I h a v e c o n f e r r e d w i th h i m o v e r th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d h e h a s i n d i c a t e d h e is i n a p o s it i o n t o s ta y o n . I f t h a t i s c o n v e n i e n t C h a ir w e c a n lo o k a t i t a g a i n a t f o u r Page 118 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 o ’c l o c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t h a t is f in e b u t w h a t is y o u r e s ti m a t io n o f w h e n w e m i g h t b e f i n is h e d i f w e g o b e y o n d f iv e o ’c l o c k , b e y o n d f o u r o ’c l o c k ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir m y … C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld a n h o u r b e e n o u g h o r w e m ig h t n e e d m o r e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I th i n k m a y b e u n ti l s ix i f t h a t is n o t g o i n g t o s tr e tc h u s t o o m u c h . B u t it r e a l ly d o e s d e p e n d – m y h o p e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t h a v i n g p l a c e d s o m e o f t h e f a c ts i n t h e 10 b a c k g r o u n d s e t t in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l n o w b e a b l e t o m o v e w i th a b i t m o r e pace. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t c e r t a i n l y n o t e a r l ie r th a n fiv e I c o u ld s a y that. CHAIRPERSON: J a n o t e a r l ie r th a n fiv e . We might have to stop at fi v e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n m a k e p la n s f o r t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d p o s s i b l y a n e a r li e r s t a r t th e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : To s t a r t e a r li e r. J a a n e a r l i e r s t a r t . S o if w e g o u p t o fi v e a n d t h e n w e s t a r t a li t t le e a r l ie r t o m o r r o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n w e m i g h t b e a b l e t o fi n i s h w i t h h i m q u i t e e a r ly. Page 119 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n c o n t in u e w i th t h e n e x t w i t n e s s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e o n ly c h a ll e n g e w i t h o u r w i t n e s s t o m o r r o w is t h a t h e d o e s n o t h a v e c a p a c i ty a f te r to m o r r o w i n th e s e n s e t h a t h e fl ie s b a c k t o Zi m b a b w e o n S a t u r d a y b u t I a m o p t i m is tic w e w il l f i n is h h i m i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e d a y. S o t h a t s h o u ld n o t b e a n is s u e f o r u s t o m o r r o w. 10 CHAIRPERSON: S o r r y b u t i s t h e – is h e a b l e t o b e a v a il a b l e t il l l a t e tomorrow? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s t h a t is fi n e . H is f li g h t a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t is o n ly o n S a t u r d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w e c o u l d c o m p l e te it t o m o r r o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I a m o p ti m is t i c i f w e a r e p u s h e d to h a v e a n e a r l ie r s t a r t w i t h Mr M a h l a n g u t o m o r r o w CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o p e f u l ly i t w i ll n o t c u t i n m u c h t o th e d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n a d a y w o u l d b e s u ff ic i e n t f o r t o m o r r o w ’s w i tn e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e – t h a t is f in e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 120 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u I a m h o p in g th a t w e c a n m o v e w i t h a li t t le b it m o r e p a c e t h r o u g h s o m e o f t h e a s p e c t s . And what I t h o u g h t w o u l d b e u s e fu l th e n j u s t a t t h e o u t s e t w a s t o c l a r i fy t h e t w o c o r r e c t io n s t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t o n y o u r a ffi d a v i t . Th e y b o t h r e la t e t o w h e n c e r t a i n e v e n ts t o o k p l a c e . A n d Mr M a h l a n g u j u s t to a s s is t y o u I a m g o i n g t o g u id e y o u t o t h e r e l e v a n t p a g e s b u t I u n d e r s t a n d t h e r e w a s a n e r r o r i n y o u r fir s t s t a t e m e n t a b o u t t h e d a t e o n w h ic h B N P C a p it a l r e c e i v e d t h e a w a r d a s tr a n s a c ti o n 10 a d v is o r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u p r o v i d e d t o u s s u b s e q u e n tl y a n e m a i l w h ic h r e f l e c ts th e a c tu a l d a t e o n w h ic h y o u r e c e iv e d t h a t l e t te r o f a w a r d . C h a ir y o u w i ll f in d it a n d M r M a h l a n g u u n d e r Ta b 4 b u t i t is a n a d d it i o n a l p a g e th a t Mr M a h la n g u h a s p r o v i d e d t o u s a n d s o it is p a g in a t e d p a g e 11 6 .1 . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o w s e e s o m e t h i n g t h a t I w a n t e d t o m e n t io n b e f o r e lu n c h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w th o s e p a g e s th a t a r e m a r k e d P D M A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n m y f il e m a y b e i t i s a ll o f o u r f il e s . Page 121 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : P D M i s o n th e p a g e n u m b e r – t h e p a g in a ti o n n u m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: That makes it d i ff ic u l t s o m e ti m e s to see the p a g in a ti o n n u m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s e x a c t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t m i g h t b e g o o d i f l a te r o n i f p o s s ib l e th e p a g e s w h ic h h a v e g o t t h a t p r o b le m c o u l d b e r e p l a c e d w i t h p a g e s w h e r e t h e p a g in a ti o n 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: O r P M D is n o t w r i tt e n o n t o p o f t h e p a g in a ti o n n u m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r w e w il l c e r ta in ly t a k e c a r e o f t h a t . I t c a n ju s t b e a d j u s t e d o n t h e p a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l d o th a t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u j u s t t o r e t u r n t o p a g e 11 6 .1 c a n y o u e x p la i n t o u s w h a t t h a t e m a il is ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : 11 6 . 1 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u l o o k u n d e r Ta b 4 . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ta b 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u g o j u s t – p a g e th r o u g h i t th e r e a r e t w o p a g e s w h ic h w e r e i n y o u r o r i g i n a l s t a te m e n t a n d t h e n t h e r e is a t h ir d p a g e t h a t h a s b e e n i n s e r t e d , d o y o u s e e t h a t? Page 122 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th r e e y o u s a y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o a t 11 6 . 1 I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t is t h e e m a i l t h a t y o u w a n t e d to b r i n g to th e c o m m is s i o n ’s a tt e n ti o n b e c a u s e i t r e l a t e s to t h e d a t e o n w h ic h y o u r e c e i v e d n o t i fic a ti o n fr o m S A A t h a t y o u h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d a s t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r, i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d a t e is it ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e 2 2 A p r il . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Th a n k y o u . So for the purposes of the e v i d e n c e C h a i r w e w il l t a k e i t t h a t B N P C a p it a l w a s a l e r te d t o i ts s u c c e s s i n th a t b i d d in g p r o c e s s o n t h e 2 2 A p r il . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir y o u w il l r e c a l l e a r l ie r in e v id e n c e w e h a d a c t u a ll y q u e r i e d t h i s b e c a u s e t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 11 5 w h ic h i s a c t u a l ly th e a w a r d l e t te r w a s d a t e d 2 0 M a r c h a n d w e c o u l d n o t C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n d e r s ta n d h o w t h a t c o u ld b e C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 W e h a d h o p e d M r M a h l a n g u w o u ld b e a b l e t o a s s is t u s a n d h e h a s b e e n a b l e t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n e x t c o r r e c t io n r e la t e s to t h e d a te o n w h ic h y o u w e r e in fa c t a p p o i n te d t o s o u r c e f u n d s f o r S A A a n d if y o u t u r n o v e r t h e t a b M r M a h la n g u t o Ta b 5 a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h e r e p a g e 11 7 . C a n y o u e x p l a in t o u s w h a t t h a t d o c u m e n t is ? Page 123 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s t h e – th r o u g h y o u C h a ir – i t is a le t t e r o f a w a r d f o r s o u r c i n g o f c a p i t a l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n d id B N P r e c e i v e t h a t l e t t e r o f a w a r d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O n t h e 2 6 M a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o w e w il l t a k e i t a s 2 6 M a y. T h is le t t e r i s d a t e d 2 5 M a y b u t is i t y o u r e v i d e n c e th a t y o u r e c e i v e d n o t i fic a ti o n t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y th e 2 6 M a y ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Just one second. Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o M r M a h la n g u w e w i ll w o r k w it h t h o s e d a t e s a s w e p r o c e e d i n t h e e v id e n c e . I w o u ld l ik e t o t h e n b e f o r e w e g o f u r t h e r i n th e q u e s t io n s a n d g e t t i n g in t o th e b i d i ts e lf j u s t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e i n r e la t io n t o y o u r p r e v i o u s e v i d e n c e . A s I h a d y o u r p r e v i o u s te s t i m o n y In li n e Tr a d in g r e q u ir e d a p a r t n e r s h i p w i th B N P t o b id f o r t h e t r a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s b e c a u s e o f t h e p a r t ic u l a r fi n a n c i a l a d v is o r y e x p e r t is e t h a t B N P w o u ld b r i n g , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. B N P C a p i t a l w a s t o b e th e l e a d m e m b e r o f t h a t j o i n t v e n t u r e , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v id e n c e t o b e y o u n e v e r m e t w i t h a n y o n e fr o m S A A , i s th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . Page 124 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a m I t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t n o o n e e ls e fr o m B N P e v e r m e t w it h S A A r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a l s o a s I h a d y o u r e v i d e n c e i t w a s o n ly M r M n g a d i w h o m e t w i th S A A , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t a b o u t M r B r e n d a n K i n g d i d h e m e e t with SAA? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I w o u l d n o t k n o w. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w o u l d n o t k n o w. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u e v e r m e e t h i m y o u r s e l f ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No I have not. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n e v e r m e t h i m ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I have never met him yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t r o l e w a s h e g o i n g to p l a y in t h e J V M r Mahlangu? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a i r I t h in k t h e – 20 a s f a r a s I n li n e Tr a d in g w a s c o n c e r n e d a ll w e – t h e r e w a s – t h e r e w a s n o t a n y e s p e c ia lly fr o m o u r p a r t a s B N P C a p it a l b e c a u s e in i ti a l ly a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h a t w e h a d M r M n g a d i w a s r e p r e s e n ti n g I n li n e Tr a d in g b e c a u s e a l l t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n f o r In li n e Tr a d i n g c a m e t h r o u g h h i m . S o in o u r v i e w h e w a s a c t u a ll y t h e ir r e p r e s e n ta t iv e . S o w h e n a t th e e l e v e n t h h o u r h e c h a n g e d t h e d e t a i ls a n d h e p u t Br e n d a n ’s d e t a il . S o Page 125 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 o n o u r p a r t w e t h o u g h t i t w a s j u s t s o r t o f a p r o f il e c h a n g e fr o m th e ir s id e b e c a u s e I m e a n in a n y b u s i n e s s , i n a n y c o m p a n y i f y o u p a r t n e r w i t h m e a n d I p u t m y e m p l o y e e ’s C V a n d n o o n e q u e s ti o n s m e I a m t h i n k – y o u k n o w – y o u b a s ic a lly a s s u m e t h a t t h o s e a r e t h e a c t u a ll y C V ’s t h a t a r e r e le v a n t fo r t h a t p a r tic u la r e x e r c is e . I th in k o n o u r p a r t t h a t is h o w w e v ie w e d i t . S o w e d i d n o t a c t u a ll y q u e s t i o n a s t o w h y – w h e n B r e n d a n h a s a c t u a ll y s h o w n u p – w h y h a s h e n o t a c t u a l ly c o m e t o t h e m e e ti n g s b u t I t h i n k m a y b e fo r o b v io u s r e a s o n s t h a t w e h a v e a c t u a ll y n e v e r a t t e n d e d a n y m e e ti n g s s o t h a t w a s t h e ir r e s p o n s ib il i ty. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u r – y o u – a m I c o r r e c t fr o m y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e n I s a y t h a t B r a n d o n K i n g w a s i n s e r t e d i n th e p la c e o f M r M n g a d i w h e r e v e r t h e r e w e r e r e fe r e n c e s t o M r M n g a d i in t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t y o u r te a m h a d p r e p a r e d fo r t h e b i d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is t r u e . Ac c o r d i n g to I n li n e Tr a d in g t h a t i s w h a t – t h a t is in f o r m a t io n i n t h e e m a il w e g o t . H e n c e y o u w i ll s e e e v e n fr o m th e e a r ly le t t e r o f a w a r d t h a t M r M n g a d i w a s t h e r e e v e n I m e a n t h e S A A g u y s t h e y a c t u a l ly b e e n c c ’i n g h i m fr o m t h e w o r d g o a n d w e a c t u a l ly g o t e v e n t h e a w a r d . S o a s fa r a s B N P C a p i ta l w a s c o n c e r n e d th a t w a s o u r p o s i ti o n to s a y h e r e p r e s e n ts h e is a c t u a l ly 20 p a r t o f I n li n e Tr a d i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr K i n g is th a t r i g h t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No Mr Mngadi. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e n w h y h a v e a b i d s u b m is s io n th a t d o e s n o t r e f e r t o M r M n g a d i a t a ll ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A s I h a v e i n d i c a t e d th r o u g h y o u Page 126 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C h a ir t h a t th e r e w a s a c t u a l ly a tu r n o f e v e n ts y e s w h e r e Mr M n g a d i a c t u a ll y a s k e d o u r y o u k n o w e s p e c i a l ly M r M o y o I m e a n t h e e v e o f t h e s u b m is s io n b e c a u s e t h a t w a s – I t h i n k it w a s d u e o n Tu e s d a y o n t h e w e e k e n d t o s a y c a n w e a c t u a l ly – c a n M r M o y o r e m o v e h is d e ta il s . Ye s a s f a r a s t h e b i d s u b m is s i o n is c o n c e r n e d . S o f o r t u n a t e ly M r M o y o d id t h a t a n d g i v e n t h a t t h e R F I w a s d u e o n Tu e s d a y s o I d i d n o t a c t u a l ly d i d n o t h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty I j u s t – h e n c e I s a i d a s f a r a s th is e m a il is c o n c e r n e d I s a w i t a b o u t tw o w e e k s a g o w h e n I a c t u a ll y m e t w it h M r M o y o b u t e v e n t u a l ly w h e n I a s k h i m w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d h e s a i d n o 10 a c t u a ll y M r M n g a d i a s k e d h i m t o d o s o . S o h e n e v e r a c t u a ll y g a v e m e m u c h e x p l a n a t io n a b o u t i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r M a h l a n g u y o u h a v e r e fe r e n c e d w h a t n e e d e d t o b e i n th e r e s p o n s e t o t h e R FI y o u w i ll a ls o b e a w a r e I a m s u r e t h a t M r B r e n d o n K i n g w a s g i v e n a s t h e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f I n li n e Tr a d in g w h e n y o u s u b m it t e d t h e b id la t e r in M a r c h 2 0 1 8 , d o y o u r e c a ll that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b y M a r c h 1 8 h a d y o u m a d e a n y e n q u ir i e s a s to t h e r o le t h a t M r K in g w a s g o i n g t o p l a y i n th e J V ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o a n d fo r o b v i o u s r e a s o n s t h a t I h a v e n e v e r m e t Mr K in g n u m b e r 1 . N u m b e r 2 a l l t h e i n f o r m a t io n fo r I n li n e Tr a d in g c a m e th r o u g h M n g a d i . So we had no reason not to b e li e v e th a t h e is n o t r e p r e s e n ti n g I n l i n e Tr a d i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Was Mr Mngadi going to be remunerated in s o m e w a y f o r a l l th e w o r k h e w a s d o i n g i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e J V ? Page 127 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O b v io u s ly t h r o u g h t h e J V a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e w e r e a c tu a l ly p u t ti n g t o g e th e r. Ye s t h e I n l in e Tr a d in g w a s g o i n g t o b e r e m u n e r a t e d a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a t J V a g r e e m e n t w a s n e v e r r e d u c e d t o w r i t in g w a s i t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o it w a s n o t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f In li n e Tr a d i n g w a s g o i n g t o b e r e m u n e r a t e d w a s i t n o t r e le v a n t t o k n o w t h e r a te s o f t h e i n d iv id u a ls i n I n li n e Tr a d i n g s o t h a t y o u c o u l d p u t t h a t t h r o u g h in y o u r p r ic i n g fo r th e 10 bid? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A s fa r a s th e r a te s a r e c o n c e r n e d i t is – th e r a te s a r e d o n e n o t a c c o r d i n g to in d iv i d u a ls b u t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e l e v e l o f s e n i o r it y. S o w h e n w e a c tu a l ly d i d t h e b i d it w a s a c c o r d i n g t o t h e l e v e l o f s e n io r i ty. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d i d t h a t p r ic in g s c h e d u l e th a t y o u p r o v i d e d t h e n i n c lu d e i n fo r m a ti o n a b o u t Mr M n g a d i a n d M r K i n g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: D e f in i te ly. I th i n k i t w a s a q u e s t io n o f n o t n e c e s s a r ily i n c lu d e b u t t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a n d t h e ir a g r e e d [ i n d is ti n c t ] g o in g fo r w a r d . I t h i n k t h e r e a s o n w h y w e c o u l d n o t 20 t h e n fi n a l is e i t w a s b e c a u s e th e le t t e r o f a p p o in t m e n t m a d e a p r o v is i o n t h a t w e s u p p o s e d t o s i g n w i th S A A . S o w e a c t u a ll y w a it i n g f o r th a t p a r t ic u l a r S L A t h e te r ms a n d c o n d i t io n s f o r t h a t S L A f o r u s to a c tu a lly conclude our engagement. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u w e r e y o u a w a r e w h e n y o u s u b m i tt e d th e b i d th a t y o u n e e d e d t o id e n ti fy t h e p e r c e n t a g e i n c o m e Page 128 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 s p l i t a s b e t w e e n th e d i ff e r e n t m e m b e r s o f t h e J V, w e r e y o u a w a r e o f that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No I am not aware. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y l e t u s g o t o i t i f w e c a n . Yo u w il l fi n d i t in t h e s o f t fi le t h a t I p r o v i d e d w h i c h is j u s t o u r r e f e r e n c e p o i n t fo r t o d a y a n d i f y o u g o t o t h e in t e r n a l p a g e 1 3 o f 5 5 w h ic h f o r t h e r e c o r d i s i n M s N h a n ts i ’s b u n d l e w h i c h i s E x h i b i t D D 2 a t p a g e 2 0 9 . Th is is a s e c t io n o f t h e b i d t h a t B N P C a p i t a l s u b m i tt e d a n d y o u w i ll s e e t h e f ir s t h e a d i n g there under Clause 18.2.6 refers to part 6 it refers to the BEE 10 s u b m is s io n a n d i t r e a d s : “Bidders must C o n s o r t iu m s submit or jo i n t t h e ir BBBEE ventures must c e r t if ic a te . submit a c o n s o l id a t e d B B B E E c e r t if ic a te . ” A n d t h e n i t g o e s o n a n d t h is is th e p o in t I w a s r a is in g w i t h y o u . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : “Each member o r g a n i s a t io n must submit th e p e r c e n t a g e i n c o m e s p li t a s p e r t h e c o n s o r t iu m o r jo in t v e n t u r e a g r e e m e n t . Th e w o r k l o a d s p li t m u s t a ls o c l e a r ly – b e c le a r ly d e fi n e d a n d i n d ic a t e d . ” 20 Do you see that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And I have your evidence to be you were not a w a r e t h a t y o u n e e d e d t o d o t h a t w h e n y o u s u b m i t te d t h e B N P C a p i t a l bid? Page 129 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I was not aware of this aspect. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t . W e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t y o u h a d t o s u b m i t a c o n s o li d a t e d B B B E E c e r ti fi c a t e fo r t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e J V ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir i t w a s n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t t h e n b e c a u s e w e t o o k a le a d p o s i t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l a n g u I n e e d t o f o l lo w th a t u p w it h y o u . W e h a v e a l r e a d y h a d c la r i fi e d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u b i d a s a J V w i th I n l in e Tr a d i n g , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s a s a c o n s o r ti u m . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s a c o n s o r t iu m . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Sorry I thought we were talking about a JV a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u w e r e in t h e p r o c e s s o f fi n a l is i n g ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : H e n c e th r o u g h y o u C h a i r h e n c e I s a i d I th in k w e u s in g th o s e t w o w o r d s l o o s e ly a n d f o r – y e s f o r th a t I t h i n k f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f th is d i s c u s s io n . B u t a s I h a v e in d ic a t e d i n m y s t a te m e n t t h a t w h a t I h a v e s u b – a s fa r a s th e c o n s o r ti u m o r J V y o u k n o w t h a t w e h a d in p l a c e w a s u n i n c o r p o r a te d a n d w e h a v e n o t a c t u a l ly e v e n i t w a s n o t y o u k n o w fi n a l is e d a s f a r a s y o u k n o w w r i tt e n 20 d o c u m e n t a ti o n is c o n c e r n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . N o I h a v e n o d i ffi c u l ty t h a t i t w a s n o t in w r i t in g b u t t h e n a tu r e o f y o u r b i d w a s a c o n s o r ti u m o r j o i n t v e n tu r e w i t h I n li n e Tr a d in g , c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e r e a d t h a t s e n te n c e o n t h e p a g e w e Page 130 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a r e l o o k i n g a t i t is u n d e r th e h e a d i n g 1 8 .2 . 6 p a r t 6 B E E s u b m is s i o n y o u w i ll s e e t h e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e th e r e s a y s : “ C o n s o r t i u ms or j o in t v e n tu r e s must s u b m it a c o n s o l id a t e d B B B E E c e r t if ic a te . ” Do you see that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Do you understand that to mean you must s u b m i t a c o n s o l id a te d B B B E E c e r ti f ic a te ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 T h a t is w h a t i t m e a n t b u t o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g is b a s e d o n o u r e x p e r i e n c e a s f a r a s th e s e t y p e s o f s tr u c t u r e s a r e c o n c e r n e d . S o ju s t t o a d d o n t h a t w e a r e n o t e v e n m a d e a w a r e o f t h i s p a r ti c u la r a s p e c t w h e n w e s u b m i tt e d o u r o w n b i d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll it is i n th e b id s u b m is s i o n t h a t y o u f il l e d i n M r M a h l a n g u . I f w e g o to i n te r n a l p a g e 5 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t. I f y o u g o b a c k a b i t. A n d f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s t h a t i s to b e f o u n d i n M s N h a n t s i ’s b u n d l e E x h i b it D D 2 a t p a g e 2 0 5 . D o y o u s e e t h a t th is is th e b i d s u b m is s io n y o u c o m p i le d fo r B N P C a p i ta l ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o i f w e p a g e f r o m t h a t p a g e , p a g e 5 y o u 20 w o u ld h a v e fo u n d a t p a g e 1 3 t h e p r o v is io n w e h a v e ju s t r e a d , d o y o u s e e t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I t a k e i t a t t h e t i m e y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f t h a t r e q u ir e m e n t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. Page 131 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And I take it you then accept that if it was a r e q u ir e m e n t o f th is b i d a n d y o u d id n o t c o m p ly w i t h i t y o u o u g h t n o t t o have been awarded the tender? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . If y o u ju s t r e m a in a t th a t in t e r n a l p a g e 1 3 w h ic h is i n E x h i b i t D D 2 a t p a g e 2 0 9 y o u w i ll s e e th e r e is a ls o a p a r t t h e r e o n p r ic in g s c h e d u le . I t s a y s : “ B i d d e r s m u s t s u b m i t a d e t a il e d c o s ti n g s s c h e d u le . ” Do you see that? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm sorry on what page? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Sorry on what page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s s o w e a r e o n i n te r n a l p a g e 1 3 o f 5 5 in t h a t s o f t f il e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s th e p a g e w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t p r e v i o u s ly. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O h I [i n d is ti n c t ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n I w a s j u s t d r a w in g y o u r a tt e n ti o n t o t h e s e c o n d c l a u s e t h e r e 1 8 . 2 . 7 p a r t 7 w h ic h h a s th e h e a d i n g ‘ Pr ic in g 20 Schedule’ and it says there “ B i d d e r s m u s t s u b m i t a d e t a il e d c o s ti n g s c h e d u l e . ” Do you see that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t s a y s : “ A l l p r i c e s s u b m i t te d m u s t r e f le c t t h e to t a l l a n d e d Page 132 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 c o s ts o f t h e p r o p o s e d p r o d u c t s t o S A A . T h e r e l e v a n t INCO term is DAP Johannesburg SAA warehouse and in c l u d e a l l a p p li c a b le t a x e s . ” I t a k e t h a t t o b e a p p ly w h e r e i t is a p r o c u r i n g o f p r o d u c t s b u t i n s o f a r a s it r e la t e d to t h i s b id t h e r e q u ir e m e n t w a s fo r a d e ta il e d c o s ti n g s c h e d u l e , d o y o u s e e t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u s u p p ly o n e a t t h e ti m e o f s u b m i t ti n g the bid? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o I d i d n o t a n d c a n I ju s t t a l k t o i t? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : Ye s . I th in k a s f a r a s t h e [i n d is t in c t] h e r e it is c o n c e r n e d a s I h a v e i n d ic a t e d a t t h e b e g i n n i n g t h a t h o w w e v ie w e d i t w a s u s b e i n g a l e a d a n d h e a d e r s o f c o n tr a c t o r. B u t h a v in g r e a d t h is I c a n u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u k n o w k e e p o n c o m in g to t h is p o i n t. B e c a u s e i t a c tu a lly m o v e s f r o m c o n s o r ti u m t o j o i n t v e n t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 W h i c h b a s i c a ll y m a k e s th is p a r t ic u l a r r e q u ir e m e n t s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: B u t a s f a r a s o u r s u b m is s i o n s w e r e c o n c e r n e d w e w e r e v ie w e d a s a l e a d b i d d e r a n d w e h a d I n li n e Tr a d in g a s s o r t o f a s u b - c o n t r a c t o r e v e n t h o u g h i t d o e s n o t a c t u a ll y r e fl e c t i n o u r d o c u m e n t a ti o n . Page 133 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . U n d e r s t o o d . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : B u t I a g r e e w it h y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u Mr M a h l a n g u a n d I a p p r e c i a t e t h a t . J u s t i n te r ms o f y o u r p r ic in g s c h e d u l e t h o u g h w h e t h e r y o u w e r e p r e s e n t in g i t a s t h e le a d o r a s a m e m b e r o f a c o n s o r t iu m d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t n o p r i c i n g s c h e d u le w a s p r o v id e d w h e n y o u s u b m i t t e d t h e b i d o n the 18 March 2016? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Th a t is n o t tr u e i t w a s s u b m i tt e d . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n w h y w a s i t r e s u b m i tt e d i n A p r i l 2 0 1 6 ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I a m n o t a w a r e o f th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e t a k e y o u t o t h e r e le v a n t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h e n . Yo u w i ll f in d i t i n – y o u w i ll n o w n e e d to a c tu a l ly t a k e o u t E x h ib i t D D 2 w h ic h is M s N h a n ts i ’s b u n d l e . C h a ir y o u s h o u l d i t h a v e t h e r e – y e s we had looked at it e a r li e r. And you w il l fi n d the relevant c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a t p a g e 2 8 2 o f th a t b u n d l e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : S o r r y e x h ib i t? I m e a n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P a g e i s 2 8 2 . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u if w e s ta r t a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e w e w il l t h e n b e a b l e t o r e a d t h is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e in c h r o n o lo g ic a l o r d e r. Yo u w i ll s e e b e l o w th e m i d d l e o f th e p a g e a n e m a il t h e r e , c o u l d y o u p le a s e t e ll u s w h o it is fr o m a n d w h o i t i s t o ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir it is t h e e m a i l fr o m S i l a s M – ja I c a n n o t s a y th e s u r n a m e p r o p e r w h ic h w a s s e n t Page 134 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t o u s o n th e 8 A p r il 2 0 1 6 t o m e a n d Mr M n g a d i w h ic h is w r i t t e n t h e s u b j e c t i s a p p o in t m e n t o f a tr a n s i ti o n a d v is o r i t s a y s ; “ D e a r D a n ie l p l e a s e s e n d t o m e v i a e m a il a c o p y o f B N P r e c e n t fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n t. I t i s p o s s ib le f o r m e to get them today as we are behind time.” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u M r M a h l a n g u . C a n I j u s t p a u s e a t t h e s e n d e r a n d r e c i p ie n ts o f t h a t e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . Just locate o u r s e lv e s in t i m e w e a r e o n t h e 8 A p r il 2 0 1 6 d o y o u s e e t h a t fo r t h e email? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e a s I h a v e th e e v i d e n c e t h e b i d s h a d b e e n s u b m i t te d o n th e 1 8 M a r c h b u t n o d e c i s i o n h a d b e e n c o m m u n ic a te d t o y o u y e t b e c a u s e w e j u s t c la r i fi e d in y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u o n ly g o t t h e r e s u lt fr o m S A A o n t h e 2 2 A p r i l, c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h i s i s i n th e p e r i o d b e t w e e n b i d s u b m is s io n a n d fi n a l d e c is i o n b y S A A , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w a s Mr M a t s a u d z a – M a t s a u d z a e m a il i n g 20 y o u a n d M r M n g a d i a b o u t t h is B N P C a p it a l’s b i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I would not answer that I do not k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n I r a is e w it h y o u my q u e r y a b o u t it ? Page 135 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e t h e b id t h a t w e n t i n o n t h e 1 8 M a r c h m a d e n o r e f e r e n c e w h a ts o e v e r t o Mr M n g a d i , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Yo u m e a n a s fa r a s th e in f o r m a ti o n c o n c e r n e d i n t h e r e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e h a d a s k e d p r e v io u s ly th e p r io r m o n t h fo r a l l r e fe r e n c e s t o h i m t o b e r e m o v e d , d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o I a m j u s t s tr u g g li n g a n d y o u w i ll t e l l m e if y o u d o n o t k n o w b u t w h y w o u ld S A A t h e n k n o w t o e m a il M r M n g a d i i n r e l a ti o n to a B N P C a p i t a l b id t h a t m a d e n o r e fe r e n c e t o h i m o n a n y o f the documents? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I w o u ld n o t k n o w. I w o u ld n o t know that. I would not know that. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e r e w e r e n o t in t e r a c ti o n s th a t y o u h a d w i t h S A A i n t h a t p e r io d to s a y a n d b y t h e w a y Mr M n g a d i i s w i th u s i n t h is b i d ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No but remember the RFI was a d is c u s s io n b e t w e e n Mr M n g a d i a n d th e g e n tl e m a n c a l le d S il a s ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: That we got. S o i t s t a r te d b e f o r e th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t a t t h a t p o i n t h e h a d n o t y e t a p p r o a c h e d Page 136 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 y o u a b o u t a p a r t n e r s h i p w i th B N P C a p it a l h a d h e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Indeed. S o I t h i n k y o u w i ll u n d e r s t a n d th e f o r c e o f m y q u e r y. W h a t M r M a t s a u d z a is e m a i li n g h e r e i s i n r e l a t i o n to t h e p e o p le h e u n d e r s t a n d s t o b e in t h e B N P C a p it a l b id , d o y o u s e e that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t i s tr u e . B u t a t t h e s a m e ti m e I w o u l d li k e t o – b e c a u s e w h e n y o u a c t u a ll y s e n d a R F I M r M n g a d i c o u l d h a v e b e e n p a r t o f t h e e m a ils t h a t h a v e b e e n s e n t to M r S il a s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: B e c a u s e h e k e p t o n r e q u e s t in g q u i te a w h o l e l o t o f i n f o r m a ti o n . S o I c a n n o t – th a t is w h y I a m s a y i n g f o r – g iv e n t h e i n f o r m a t io n y e s i t b e c o m e s v e r y d i ffic u l t a s to w h y. But… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: There has been some c o r r e s p o n d e n c e p r io r t h is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ju s t w a n t e d t o g e t f o r th e r e c o r d p u r p o s e s w h e t h e r y o u c o u l d a s s is t u s w i t h th a t o d d it y a s I s a w it o n th e fa c e o f 20 t h a t e m a i l . B u t y o u d o n o t h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a ls o w e r e n o t a w a r e th a t N e d b a n k b i d f o r the same transaction a d v is o r s e r v ic e s at th e time, were you? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I c a n ta k e y o u t o t w o p a g e s o f t h a t b i d M r Page 137 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M n g a d i – M r M a h l a n g u . Yo u w il l fi n d i t e a r l i e r in M s N h a n ts i’s b u n d l e t h a t is E x h i b i t D D 2 a n d y o u w il l fi n d i t a t p a g e 1 9 8 . M r M a h l a n g u I t a k e it t h a t t h is is n o t a d o c u m e n t y o u w e r e a w a r e o f a t t h e ti m e , is t h a t correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : As I s e e th a t d o c u m e n t o n i ts f a c e i t i s d a t e d 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 a n d i t is w h a t a p p e a r s to b e t h e c o v e r i n g l e t te r t o a n a p p o i n t m e n t o f a tr a n s a c t io n a d v i s o r t o p r o v i d e fi n a n c i a l a d v i c e t o S A A a n d i t r e a d s i n t h e f ir s t s e n te n c e . 10 “ T h a n k y o u fo r y o u r in v i t a t i o n t o t e n d e r fo r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f tr a n s a c t i o n a d v i s o r. ” Do you see that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I do yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o 1 9 9 t h e r e is a n e x tr a c t t h a t h a s b e e n i n c l u d e d i n t h is b u n d l e f r o m t h e N e d b a n k b id fo r t h o s e s e r v ic e s . D o y o u s e e u n d e r t h e tr a n s a c t io n te a m i n t h a t – o n t h a t p a g e a r e a m o n g s t o t h e r p e o p l e a r e fe r e n c e t o M s o ts h a M n g a d i , d o y o u s e e t h a t? C H A I R P E R S O N : I d i d n o t g e t th a t p a g e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir i t is t h e n e x t p a g e 1 9 9 . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h is is a p a g e o f th e N e d b a n k b i d d e a l in g w i t h t h e te a m c o m p o s i ti o n . D o y o u s e e u n d e r t h e h e a d in g t h e r e … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o ? T h e r e i s a h e a d i n g ‘c li e n t r e l a t i o n s ’ Page 138 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 y o u h a v e g o t th a t s o r t o f ju s t a b o v e m i d w a y o n t h e p a g e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n t h e r e a r e a s e r i e s o f f o u r i n d i v i d u a ls r e fe r e n c e d t h e r e . W h o is t h e s e c o n d i n d iv id u a l in t h e N e d b a n k t e a m o n t h e li n e b e l o w c l ie n t r e l a ti o n s ? I f y o u g o a c r o s s t h e fo u r n a m e s th e r e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ar e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t P h u ti . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll l e t u s g o t h r o u g h i f y o u r e a d fr o m t h e le f t u n d e r c li e n t r e la t io n s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e g o t R e m o M o y o . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o i s t h e s e c o n d i n d iv i d u a l? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s M o s o ts h a M n g a d i. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M a s o ts h a M n g a d i ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s – h e is th e p e r s o n y o u a r e e n g a g i n g w i th a s I n li n e Tr a d in g fo r y o u r b i d . I s t h a t r i g h t ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t a t t h a t t i m e y o u h a d n o k n o w le d g e o f h is association with Nedbank? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. M r M a h l a n g u i f w e t h e n r e tu r n to p a g e 2 - 8 - 2 b e c a u s e t h a t w a s th e e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t I s a i d w a s Page 139 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 r e l e v a n t t o th e p r i c i n g t h a t y o u p u t f o r w a r d a f t e r t h e b i d s u b m is s i o n . Yo u w i ll r e m e m b e r … CHAIRPERSON: 2-8-2? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 - 8 - 2 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w e r e in th e s e c o n d h a l f o f t h a t p a g e to b e g in w i t h b e c a u s e t h a t w a s th e e m a i l fr o m M r M a ts a u d z a t o y o u c o p i e d to M r M n g a d i a s k i n g f o r t h e r e c e n t fi n a n c i a l s a n d t h e n a s I h a v e it a b o v e t h a t i s y o u r r e s p o n s e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ar e w e s t il l o n 2 - 8 - 2 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s in d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: S h e is r e fe r r i n g y o u t o th e s e c o n d e m a il fr o m t h e bottom of that page. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Oh yes. I can see that. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . W h a t i s t h e d a t e o f t h a t e m a il ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s t h e 11 t h . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t – a n d w h o s e n d s it a n d w h o is i t to ? C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is 11 A p r i l 2 0 1 6 ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It is me. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is y o u a n d w h o a r e y o u s e n d i n g t h e e m a il t o ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : To S il a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r M a t s a u d z a a n d w h o i s i t c o p ie d t o ? Page 140 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : To M n g a d i . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M n g a d i? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d o e s t h e e m a i l r e f le c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e p r i c i n g a n d t h e f in a n c i a ls . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . L e t u s r e a d it – i f w e m a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It is please: “ D e a r M s Si l a s p l e a s e fi n d a t ta c h e d fi n a n c ia ls a n d p r i c i n g f o r y o u r a t t e n t io n . ” 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f y o u g o o v e r to p a g e 2 - 8 - 4 M r M a h l a n g u w e d i d n o t d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y t o a tt a c h it a ll o f th e fi n a n c i a l s t h a t y o u s u b m it t e d w i th t h is e m a il . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: (Intervenes). A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e s i m p l y a tt a c h e d t h e p r ic in g t h a t w a s o n e o f t h e a tt a c h m e n ts . Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t a t 2 - 8 - 4 . D o y o u s e e th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o in f a ir n e s s t o y o u Mr M a h la n g u th a t is w h y I was asking you why you s u b m i t te d your p r ic in g after the b id s u b m is s io n . Is th a t w h a t w e s e e h e r e ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: pricing. I t w a s n o t – i t i s n o t tr u e . T h a t w a s a v e r i fic a ti o n o f o u r I f – i f I t a k e y o u t h r o u g h to t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t th a t y o u – y o u h a v e in P- N - 2 - 4 - 6 . That was our pricing. C H A I R P E R S O N : P- N - 2 - 4 - 6 ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : J a . P- N – o k a y t h e s a m e f il e … Page 141 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: But it is at 2-4-6. CHAIRPERSON: 2-4-6? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . T h a t i s w h a t w e a c t u a l ly s u b m i tt e d a n d t h e n w e h a v e a c tu a l ly b e e n t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir b e e n a s k e d t o c la r i fy it f u r th e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t u s g o to 2 - 4 - 6 i f w e t h e n m a y. S o t h e r e I h a v e u n d e r S e c t i o n 6 “ Pr o je c t C o s ti n g ” . I t r e a d s : 10 “ T h e c o n s o r ti u m f e e w i ll b e a s f o ll o w s : t h e r a is i n g f e e w i ll b e c h a r g e d a t 1 .2 5 p e r c e n t o f t h e a m o u n t raised.” Do you see that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y w a s t h a t r e l e v a n t t o t h e b i d f o r tr a n s a c t io n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s w h e n it w a s n o t r e q u ir i n g a n y f u n d s b e e n r a is e d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir – w h e n i t i s a c t u a ll y s t a n d a r d w h e n w e a c t u a l ly s e n d o u r d o c u m e n t a ti o n i t c o m e s t o g e th e r w i t h t h is . S o i t i s a te m p l a te th a t w e h a v e a n d a ll t h e f e e s a r e 20 a c t u a ll y u p f r o n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m n o t s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d it . Yo u w e r e b i d d in g f o r t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e h a v e e s t a b l is h e d e a r li e r t h a t is a v e r y d i ff e r e n t t h i n g t o s o u r c i n g o f f u n d s o r fu n d s r a is i n g . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 142 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h y w o u ld y o u b id f o r tr a n s a c t i o n a d v i s o r s e r v ic e s w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o a f e e f o r f u n d r a is i n g ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A s I h a v e s a i d a g a in t h i s i s o u r s t a n d a r d p r o p o s a l. S o a ll p r o p o s a ls c o m e w it h a f e e s o t h a t w h o e v e r – ju s t i n c a s e w e g e t a p p o i n t e d p e o p l e a c t u a l ly u n d e r s t a n d e x a c tl y h o w – h o w w e a c t u a ll y c o s t o u r s e lv e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . T h e n y o u g o d o w n a n d y o u s a y : “ R e t a in e r f e e w i ll b e c h a r g e d a t a n h o u r l y r a te a s 10 in d i c a t e d i n t h e ta b l e b e l o w. T h is w il l b e o ffs e t fr o m t h e r a i s i n g … ” I th in k t h a t is s u p p o s e d to b e f e e . “…when a project is funded.” Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: c la r i ty h e r e ? T h a t i s tr u e . C a n I p r o v id e I t h i n k a t t h is p o i n t i n t i m e o n e d i d n o t a c t u a ll y h a v e a c le a r i d e a a s to h o w t h i n g s a r e g o i n g to a c t u a ll y p a n o u t a s t o w h a t is t h e n a t u r e o f t h e b e s t o f th is – y o u k n o w – w o r k t h a t y o u s u p p o s e d t o h a v e d o n e . S o w e ju s t p r o v id e d o u r s t a n d a r d t o s a y t h e r e is a r e t a i n e r 20 t h a t w e d o a n d t h e r e i s – w h e n i t i s c a p i t a l r a is i n g is h o w w e d o a s f a r a s a d v is o r y w o r k . This is the rate that we charge. As – a s – g iv e n t h a t t h is in f o r m a ti o n a s s u b m i t t e d a t t h e – a t th e b i d d i n g s t a g e – a t t h e R F I s t a g e . S o a s a c t u a l ly a s w e p r o g r e s s t h e y m o v e d . N o w w e a r e a c t u a l ly w e a r e f o r c e d to – t o n a r r o w d o w n t h e s p e c i f ic s s o h e n c e th e – t h e Page 143 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 c o s t in g y o u f in d o n – o n 2 - 8 - 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w il l f o l lo w th a t u p i f w e m a y in a m o m e n t M r M a h l a n g u b u t i f w e g o d o w n t o t h e h o u r ly r a t e s o n t h a t p a g e . W h a t I a m i n t e r e s te d i n t h e r e i s I s e e n o r e fe r e n c e t o a n in d i v i d u a l f r o m I n li n e Tr a d in g i n th a t ta b l e . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e s e w e r e t h e c o n s o r ti u m f e e s . C o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Th e s e w e r e t h e s o r t o f s ta n d a r d f e e s a s p e r o u r – o u r s t a n d a r d fe e s a t t h e o ffic e , y e s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e c o u l d l e t u s s t a r t a t t h e t o p o f t h e p a g e . W h a t I u n d e r s t a n d t h i s p a g e t o b e d e t a i li n g is th e c o n s o r ti u m ’s f e e . C o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e c o n s o r t iu m c o m p r is e d B N P C a p it a l a n d I n li n e Tr a d in g . C o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e t a b le d o e s n o t r e f l e c t a n y r a te s f o r I n li n e Tr a d in g ’s r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 Ye s a n d t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir I t h i n k t h e r e w a s j u s t a n e r r o r w h ic h i s – w h ic h - w h y t h e y a r e n o t in c l u d e d w h e n y o u a c tu a lly m e n ti o n e d t h e c o n s o r ti u m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s ju s t a n e r r o r o n o u r p a r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u k n o w th e r a te s o f t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o f I n l i n e Tr a d i n g ? Page 144 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No not at this point. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u w o u l d h a v e n e e d e d t o in s e r t th e m i n o r d e r to b e c o m p l ia n t w it h t h e b i d t h a t r e q u ir e d y o u to s p e c i fy th e p a r t ic u l a r b r e a k d o w n b e tw e e n c o n s o r ti u m m e m b e r s a s t o w h a t f e e s they would be charging. Correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A t t h is p o in t i n ti m e w e m o r e o r le s s h a d a n id e a s o it i s n o t – i t w a s n o t a q u e s t io n o f u s u n d e r s ta n d i n g e x a c tl y h o w m u c h t h e y c h a r g e b u t i t is fo r u s t o a c tu a l ly t o s e n d s o r t o f in d i c a t iv e n u m b e r s b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e v e r y in d ic a t iv e n u m b e r s t o th e m 10 b e c a u s e – s o r r y – a s I in d ic a t e d i t w a s a t a p o i n t o f j u s t r e q u e s ti n g in f o r m a ti o n f r o m u s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t. W e w i ll m o v e to w h a t w a s p u t i n t h e r e a c t u a l b i d s u b m is s i o n b y 1 8 M a r c h b u t I u n d e r s t o o d w h e n I a s k e d y o u t h e q u e s ti o n e a r l i e r h a d y o u p r e v io u s ly s u b m i t t e d y o u r p r ic in g f o r th e b i d y o u t o o k m e to p a g e 2 - 4 - 6 . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h a t y o u a r e c l a r i fy i n g n o w is th is i s w a s o n ly s u b m i tt e d a t R F I s ta g e n o t a t R F P s t a g e . C o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . S o w e w il l l o o k … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : S o r r y – s o r r y. I c a n n o t c o n fir m it n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s b e c a u s e I d o n o t h a v e t h e d e t a i ls . Page 145 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u – y o u t h i n k i t is t r u e b u t … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S u b j e c t t o c o n fir m a t io n ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . As I have your evidence you were e x p l a i n in g w h y it w a s r o u g h a n d r e a d y a t t h is s t a g e . It is b e c a u s e i t is o n ly a t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n s t a g e . C o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O n e , i n f o r m a t io n s t a g e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Tw o , I g u e s s i t w a s a q u e s ti o n of time as well because we were moving at a fast pace. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s in d e e d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t w e – w h a t w e h a v e i s t h e p ic t u r e o f w h a t y o u s u b m i tt e d a t R F I s t a g e n o w. W e w il l j u m p i n to d u e c o u r s e t o w h a t p r ic i n g in f o r m a t io n w a s s u b m i t te d w i t h t h e b id o n 1 8 M a r c h . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 T h a n k y o u ; b u t I w o u ld l ik e o n e p o in t o f c la r i fi c a t io n o n y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th e R F I a n d f o r t h a t if y o u w il l g o p a g e 2 - 8 - 1 in th e b u n d l e y o u a r e c u r r e n t ly b u s y w i th . Th a t is E X H I B I T D D 2 . S o t h is is S e c ti o n 6 o f t h a t r e s p o n s e w h i c h h a s t h e h e a d i n g h e l p fu ll y P r ic i n g Sc h e d u le b e c a u s e y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t is w h a t I a m in t e r e s t e d i n is w h e n w a s a P r ic i n g Sc h e d u le s u b m i tt e d … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 146 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And what I read there Mr Mahlangu - but I w o u ld lik e y o u r h e lp in u n d e r s t a n d i n g it – i s it r e fl e c t s t h e r e : “ B e c a u s e o f t h e e n v is a g e d m e t h o d o lo g y a n d c o m p l e x i ty o f th e p r o j e c t w e p r o p o s e a f e e o f R 1 e x c l u d i n g VAT p l u s a f e e t o S A A o n t h e s u c c e s s f u l a d o p t io n f o r i m p le m e n t a t i o n o f o u r a d v ic e a s d e t a i le d a b o v e . ” S o j u s t t e l l m e a b o u t t h a t f e e o f R 1 e x c l u d in g VAT. H o w w a s t h a t g o i n g to work? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 To b e h o n e s t w i th y o u I t h i n k t h a t w a s a n e r r o r o n o u r p a r t h e n c e t h e f e e s t h a t w e r e d is c u s s e d i n – i n prior pages. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e i t w o u l d n o t m a k e s e n s e t o b id f o r t h is at … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t R 1 e x c l u d i n g VAT. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It does not make sense. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right. S o th e n le t u s m o v e a h e a d . We all a g r e e d i t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e t o b i d a t R 1 fo r th is tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r s e r v ic e s . W e a ls o h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e th a t w e s a w p r e v i o u s l y w a s n o t 20 t h e fi n a l p r i c i n g b u t t h e n w e m o v e to t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h y w a s p r i c i n g t h e n s u b m i t t e d a f te r t h e b id w a s p u t i n b e c a u s e t h e o n l y … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e d o n o t f o r g e t y o u r q u e s t io n , A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. Page 147 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n w e g o b a c k t o 2 - 8 - 1 ? Yo u h a v e s a id t h a t – th a t r e fe r e n c e to R 1 e x c l u d in g VAT w a s a n e r r o r. T h a t k i n d o f p u z z le s m e b e c a u s e y o u a r e i n b u s i n e s s . B N P i s i n b u s in e s s a n d i s th a t n o t – d o e s n o t t h a t r e la t e to w h a t i t m ig h t u l ti m a t e ly c h a r g e e v e n i f i t is n o t e x a c t . Is th a t n o t a n a r e a w h e r e y o u w o u l d p a r t i c u l a r ly p a y s p e c ia l a t t e n t io n b e c a u s e y o u k n o w th a t i f y o u g e t t h e t e n d e r – y o u k n o w - t h e c l i e n t n e e d s t o h a v e a r e a s o n a b l e id e a a t l e a s t if n o t t h e e x a c t a m o u n t e v e n a t t h a t s t a g e a t l e a s t a r e a s o n a b l e i d e a o f w h a t i t m ig h t c o s t t h e m to prefer you. 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. I t h i n k t h a t t h a t t h e r e w a s a d u p li c a t io n b e c a u s e i f y o u l o o k a t th e – 2 .4 . 6 a n d 2 .8 . 1 a r e t h e s a m e th in g s – t h e Pr ic in g S c h e d u l e w h ic h is – w h ic h is w r i t t e n – w h ic h is u n d e r S e c t i o n 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : S o it w a s e x p la i n e d . S o h e n c e I a m s a y i n g t h e – th e n a r r a tiv e – I m e a n t h e d is c u s s i o n o n t o p w h ic h i s t h e o n e t h a t I a m s a y i n g i t d o e s n o t a c t u a ll y m a k e s e n s e b u t i t w a s explained if you look at … CHAIRPERSON: 2-4-6 you say? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 2 - 4 - 6 th a t w h i c h is S e c ti o n 6 t h e n y o u g o b a c k t o S e c t io n 6 a g a i n w h i c h i s Pr ic i n g Sc h e d u le . So p e r h a p s w h a t m y t e a m h a s d o n e is t h e y h a v e r e a li s e d t h a t i t w a s a c t u a ll y d is c u s s e d a n d j u s t l e f t t h i s t h in g a s it is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. N o t h a t is f i n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l i f I c o u l d f o l lo w u p o n t h a t M r M a h l a n g u Page 148 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 b e c a u s e a t 2 - 4 - 6 t h e r e is n o i n d ic a ti o n o f w h a t t h i s is g o i n g t o c o s t S A A . I s t h e r e b e c a u s e a n d l e t m e e x p la in w h y I s a y t h a t i n f a ir n e s s to y o u a l l t h a t t h e t a b l e r e fl e c ts is r a te s b u t it d o e s n o t r e fl e c t h o w m u c h ti m e y o u t h o u g h t w a s g o i n g t o b e s p e n t a n d h e n c e h o w m u c h w o u ld h a v e t o b e p a i d b y S A A i f t h e y c h o s e y o u fo r t h e s e r v ic e s . Is t h a t correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o th e o n ly p a r t o f t h i s d o c u m e n t t h a t a c t u a lly g iv e s a f e e is t h e o n e a t 2 - 8 - 1 w h i c h r e f l e c ts t h e f e e t h a t w e a ll a g r e e d 10 c a n n o t p o s s i b l y b e th e fe e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : B a s e d o n t h i s f il e y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . R ig h t . I f w e t h e n g o t o w h e n th e p r o p e r Pr ic i n g S c h e d u l e t h e o n e th a t a c t u a l ly d e ta il e d t h e to t a l o f 2 . 6 m il li o n w a s p r o v id e d t o S A A I p u t t o y o u e a r l ie r th a t i t a p p e a r s t o o n ly h a v e g o n e to S A A a s a n a t t a c h m e n t t o y o u r e m a i l o f 11 A p r il a n d l e t m e t a k e y o u t o t h e p a g e in f a i r n e s s . Yo u w il l f in d i t a t p a g e 2 - 8 - 2 . I t is t h e n e x t p a g e . Yo u w i ll r e c a l l w e l o o k e d a t th a t e m a i l a m o m e n t a g o … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d w e w e r e f o c u s in g o n t h e o n e y o u s e n t t o M r M a ts a u d z a a n d i t r e a d s : “Please find f in a n c i a ls and pricing for your a tt e n ti o n . ” A n d t h e n w e w e n t o v e r to y o u r 2 - 8 - 4 a n d t h a t w a s th e P r i c i n g S c h e d u l e w h ic h w a s a t t a c h e d t o t h a t e m a i l a n d I p u t i t t o y o u t h e n t h a t t h is w a s a s u b m is s io n o f a P r ic i n g S c h e d u l e a f t e r t h e b i d s u b m is s i o n d a t e h a d Page 149 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 passed. Do you see that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . However it was just an e x p l a n a t io n o f t h e n u m b e r s a s I h a v e s a i d in y o u r p r e v i o u s s t a t e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t w h a t w e h a v e s u b m i t te d w a s n o t – w a s j u s t in d i c a t iv e a n d t h e n n o w t o a c tu a lly f ir m d o w n a s t o w h a t e x a c tly t h a t y o u a r e s u b m i t ti n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t Mr M a h l a n g u y o u h a v e t o b r e a k d o w n y o u r p r i c i n g b e f o r e y o u s u b m i t t e d y o u r b i d b e f o r e t h e c l o s i n g d a te o n 10 1 8 M a r c h d id y o u n o t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t i s tr u e . H o w e v e r it d e p e n d s on the – on the work at hand because in some instances you – you are n o t s u r e h o w lo n g t h is th i n g is g o in g t o ta k e a n d y o u g i v e t h e m a n in d i c a t iv e b e c a u s e y o u d o n o t k n o w – e v e n k n o w h o w m u c h – y o u k n o w – w h a t a m o u n t – I m e a n – a m o u n t o f w o r k t h a t is in v o lv e d . S o i n m o s t c a s e s w o u ld e v e n c u r r e n tly w o u ld a c tu a ll y s e n d o u r p r ic e s . I t is o n l y w h e n w e h a v e b e e n s u c c e s s fu l … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MALANGU: 20 O r in th e p r o c e s s o f t h e c li e n t w a n t t o c o m p a r e a p p l e s w i t h a p p l e s b e c a u s e o t h e r s p u t a p r ic e o t h e r s p u t r a te s a n d th e n s a id t o y o u s e n d u s th e r a t e s s o t h a t w e c a n compare apples with apples. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u h a d to s u b m i t a Pr ic in g S c h e d u l e w i th t h is b i d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Page 150 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e P r ic i n g S c h e d u l e w e l o o k e d a t th a t w a s p r o v i d e d in r e s p o n s e to t h e R F I c o n ta i n e d t h e m e a n i n g l e s s f e e o f R 1 e x c lu d in g VAT. C o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b y 1 8 M a r c h w h e n th e b id s c l o s e d th e r e w a s n o f u r t h e r P r i c i n g S c h e d u l e t h a t h a d b e e n p r o v id e d b y B N P C a p it a l. C o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : O k a y. S o t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir le t me go back. 10 I t w a s a c t u a ll y p r o v i d e d b u t t h r o u g h r a t e s . S o – s o r e m e m b e r w h a t h a s a c t u a l ly h a p p e n e d h e r e is i t is n o t lik e th e c li e n t t h a t is s e e i n g B N P f o r t h e fir s t t i m e y e s . W e a c t u a ll y p r o v i d e d t h e in f o r m a ti o n . W e h a v e g iv e n t h e m a n i n d ic a ti o n o f p r ic i n g a n d – a n d t h e s e c o n d t i m e is t h e y w a n t t o fir m u p a s fa r a s th a t p r ic i n g is c o n c e r n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id t h e y a s k y o u t o f ir m i t u p ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e y a s k e d u s t o a c tu a l ly s e n d a Pr ic i n g Sc h e d u le b e c a u s e w h a t w e h a v e d o n e w e j u s t s e n t t h e r a t e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l Mr M a h la n g u t h e o n l y e m a il w e h a v e r e l a ti n g t o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a f t e r t h e b i d w a s c l o s e d o n 1 8 M a r c h a n d w h e n y o u w e r e a w a r d e d t h e te n d e r o n 2 2 A p r il is th e e m a il a t th e 20 b o t t o m o f p a g e 2 - 8 - 2 . D o y o u s e e t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . CHAIRPERSON: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u s e e t h a t Mr M a t s a u d z a a s k e d y o u f o r t h e r e w a s a c o p y o f y o u r f i n a n c ia l s t a te m e n ts . r e fe r e n c e to a Pr ic in g S c h e d u l e . Page 151 of 221 He made no 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o o t h e r t h a n th is w a s th e r e a n y o th e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f r o m S A A t h a t r e q u ir e d y o u to p u t t h r o u g h y o u r P r i c i n g Schedule? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: b e 2 0 0 0 - h a p p e n e d in 2 0 1 6 . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. That must I c a n n o t r e c a l l a l l th e – w h a t b a s ic a l ly tr a n s p ir e d b u t a s f a r a s fr o m t h i s in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I h a v e b e f o r e m e I c a n – I c o u l d t e l l t h a t b a s e d o n o u r p r ic i n g th a t w a s n o t s p e c i fi c t o a number … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: B u t t o r a te s t h e n w e a c t u a ll y h a v e – I g u e s s th e y w a n t e d to c o m p a r e a p p l e s w i t h a p p l e s . H e n c e w e h a v e b e e n a s k e d t o s e n d t h is . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll m a y b e l e t u s – l e t u s a s k th is . Yo u s a i d S A A a s k e d y o u f o r c l a r i fic a ti o n . H o w d id th a t r e q u e s t c o m e t o y o u ? W a s i t t e l e p h o n ic ? W a s i t … ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It is … C H A I R P E R S O N : By w a y o f w r i t te n c o m m u n ic a ti o n o r d id y o u h e a r fr o m M r M n g a d i t h a t t h a t i s w h a t t h e y w a n te d ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Vi a e m a i l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Vi a e m a il ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t e m a i l in t h is b u n d le th a t o r is i t a n y w h e r e h e r e b e f o r e m e ? H a v e y o u – h a v e y o u s e e n i t in t h e b u n d le s i n p r e p a r a t io n f o r g iv in g e v i d e n c e ? Is i t s o m e t h i n g y o u h a v e r e c e n tl y s e e n ? Page 152 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o . N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e s e e n i t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I have not seen it. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b u t a r e y o u s u r e th a t t h e r e w a s a n e m a il ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : A s k i n g f o r c l a r i fic a ti o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: D e fi n i t e l y b e c a u s e I m e a n e v e n o u r r e s p o n s e w a s v i a e m a il . S o … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M r M a h l a n g u I m u s t p r o b e th a t f u r th e r b e c a u s e y o u s u p p li e d y o u r Pr ic i n g S c h e d u l e i n r e s p o n s e to a n e m a i l t h a t d i d n o t a s k fo r i t. A r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e i s a n o t h e r e m a il th a t a s k e d f o r it ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: W h a t I a m s a y i n g is t h e – t h e p r i c i n g t h a t w e s e n t w a s a c t u a l ly o n r a t e s a n d th e n w e h a v e b e e n a c t u a ll y a s k e d t o s e n d – to fir m u p o n t h e p r i c e b e c a u s e t h e y c o u l d n o t a c t u a ll y g e t d o w n – c o m p a r e a p p le s w it h a p p l e s . S o w e h a d t o a c tu a l ly s e n d t h a t p r ic i n g b u t a s t o b e c a u s e – y o u k n o w – th is t h i n g h a p p e n e d i n 2 0 1 6 – a s to w h e t h e r t h a t c o m m u n i c a t io n i t i s i n o n e o f th e s e f il e s I a m 20 not – I cannot … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l a n g u in f a i r n e s s t o y o u … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: But … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e fo u n d t h r o u g h th e C o m m i s s i o n ’s e n g a g e m e n ts w i th S A A n o o th e r e m a i l t h a n th is o n e a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 2 - 8 - 2 t h a t r e q u ir e s y o u to p r o v i d e y o u r fi n a n c i a ls a n d m a k e s n o Page 153 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 r e fe r e n c e t o p r ic i n g . I t is n o t i m p o s s i b l e t h a t s u c h a n e m a i l e x i s t s b u t w e w o u l d a s k fo r y o u r a s s is t a n c e i f i t d o e s e x is t o n y o u r r e c o r d s t o p r o v i d e i t to u s i n d u e c o u r s e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I w i ll tr y b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n b a t t li n g w i t h m y r e c o r d s y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r ta in ly b u t l e t m e p u t th e p r o p o s i ti o n t o y o u then. If i t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t o f th e b i d t h a t y o u s u b m i t a P r ic i n g S c h e d u l e b e fo r e 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t B N P C a p i t a l d i d n o t do so? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir I d o n o t agree. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t if B N P d id n o t a s a m a t t e r o f fa c t d o s o t h e n i ts b i d w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n f u l l y c o m p li a n t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Through you Chair hence I am – I am saying I do not agree. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o I a m s a y in g a s s u m e t h a t y o u a r e w r o n g . 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: We have not. C H A I R P E R S O N : A s s u m e th a t y o u a r e w r o n g . A s s u m e th a t i n f a c t t h e p r i c i n g w a s n o t s e n t t h r o u g h b e f o r e c lo s i n g d a t e . I f t h a t is t h e p o s i t io n … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. CHAIRPERSON: W o u l d y o u a c c e p t th a t th e n th e b i d w a s n o t f u l ly Page 154 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 c o m p la i n t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir d e f in i te ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t o n e fo ll o w u p t o th a t Mr M a h la n g u i t w a s o n t h e e m a il o f 11 A p r il t h a t y o u p r o v i d e d t h e Pr ic in g S c h e d u l e t h a t in d i c a t e d th a t t h e f e e t o S A A w o u l d b e 2 .6 m il li o n o r t h e r e a b o u ts i s th a t correct? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: M a ’a m I d o n o t h a v e a n e m a il . What page are we at? 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . I t is a t p a g e 2 - 8 - 4 . I t is th e Pr ic in g S c h e d u l e t h a t y o u a t ta c h t o y o u r e m a i l o f 11 A p r il . D o y o u s e e th e r e y o u a c t u a ll y d o n o w a t tr i b u te h o u r s t o t h e r a te s a n d y o u g iv e a t o ta l t h e r e i n c l u d in g VAT o f 2 6 8 9 8 3 0 . D o y o u s e e t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o th a t w a s B N P ’s f e e fo r t h e t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s i f i t w a s a w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r. C o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p r i o r t o 11 A p r il 2 0 1 6 t h a t f e e h a d n o t y e t been made known to SAA. Correct? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . O n ly th e r a t e s y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o ju s t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s ta n d y o u – d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t th is f e e w a s n o t m a d e k n o w n t o S A A b e f o r e th e c lo s i n g d a t e for the bid? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d o . Page 155 of 221 However what I am 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 s a y in g C h a ir is t h a t o n ly t h e r a t e s w e r e m a d e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No, yes. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y ; b u t t h e a b s e n c e o f – t h e a b s e n c e o f t h is in f o r m a ti o n i n t h e b i d w o u l d m e a n w o u ld i t n o t t h a t S A A w o u ld n o t h a v e a n y r e a s o n a b le id e a a s t o h o w m u c h o r m o r e o r l e s s h o w m u c h y o u w o u ld c h a r g e - i t w o u l d h a v e t o p a y y o u i f it p r e f e r r e d y o u – i f i t p r e f e r r e d B N P. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e s i r – C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : H e n c e t h e y h a d t o a c tu a lly s e n d – y o u k n o w – c la r i fi c a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Afterwards? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u ju s t t o c o n c l u d e t h e a s p e c ts o n I n li n e Tr a d i n g – a t a n y p o in t i n 2 0 1 6 d i d y o u b e c o m e a w a r e t h a t I n li n e Tr a d in g i s a c a r d e a le r s h i p ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o u p u n ti l t h e p o in t th a t th e a w a r d w a s c a n c e l le d w i t h S A A y o u h a d n o t e n g a g e d fu r t h e r w i t h In li n e Tr a d in g a b o u t i ts l i n e o f b u s in e s s h a d y o u ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n a m I t o t a k e i t th a t y o u t o o k t h a t d e s c r ip t io n t h a t M r M n g a d i p r o v i d e d o n S a t u r d a y 1 3 F e b r u a r y a s t h e Page 156 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a c c u r a te d e s c r i p t i o n o f t h e b u s i n e s s o f I n l i n e Tr a d i n g ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is t r u e . H o w e v e r o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t f o r h i m t o s u p p ly u s w i t h a l l th e i n f o r m a ti o n a n d t h e C Vs s o t h a t i s h o w - t h a t is b a s i c a ll y t h e p o s i ti o n w e a r e a t – a t t h a t p o in t in ti m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u g o t c e r t a i n i n fo r m a t i o n fr o m Mr M n g a d i a b o u t I n l i n e Tr a d i n g t h a t w a s s u b m it t e d w it h t h e b id . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 I h a v e c e r t a i n l y s e e n i n t h e d o c u m e n ts t h e ir S A R C e r ti f ic a te t h a t y o u s p o k e a b o u t e a r li e r. C o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I h a v e s e e n a n i n d ic a ti o n o f t h e ir b a n k a c c o u n t d e t a i ls . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u m a d e r e fe r e n c e t o C Vs a n d I h a v e n o t s e e n C V s . C a n y o u a s s is t m e w i th t h a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t h i n k a s fa r a s t h i s fi le i s c o n c e r n e d – I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h o s e – y o u k n o w – t h o s e C Vs a r e a c t u a ll y c o n t a i n e d b u t w h a t I r e m e m b e r is t h e p r o fi l e fo r Mr – is i t 20 M r Ki n g ? Ye s t h a t i s w h a t I r e m e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . H e c e r t a i n l y i n c l u d e d i n a t e a m s t r u c tu r e diagram that I have seen. Yo u w il l fi n d t h a t i n M s N h a n ts i ’s b u n d l e w h ic h is E X H I B I T D D 2 a t p a g e 2 - 7 - 3 . D o y o u s e e t h a t d ia g r a m o n t h a t page? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. Page 157 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I s e e y o u a t t h e t o p o f th a t p a g e i d e n t i fi e d a s L e a d P r o j e c t D ir e c t o r. D o y o u s e e th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t e ll u s w h a t p o s i t io n M r K i n g w a s t o occupy? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A s f a r a s o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g is c o n c e r n e d a s I h a v e a c t u a ll y i n d ic a te d a t th e b e g in n in g th a t w h e n w e s e e M r K in g i n o u r v i e w is - a n d M r M n g a d i t h e y a r e a c t u a l ly i n t h e s a m e p o s i t io n b e c a u s e a s f a r a s o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t is g o in g to b e 10 o u r r e s p o n s i b il it y t o a c tu a lly li a i s e w i t h th e c l ie n t o n e ; t w o , c o o r d in a t e a l l t h e i m p o r t s t h a t a c tu a l ly t h e y g e t fr o m t h e c li e n t a n d t h e n – a n d t h e n p r o v i d e u s w i t h a c tu a lly w h a t e v e r i n p u t t h a t t h e y g e t . S o th a t w a s o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty. I m e a n th a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g a t t h e ti m e w h e n t h is t h i n g w a s p u t t o g e t h e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d b u t y o u i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e p r o f il e s o f t h e p e o p l e w h o h a d c o m e fr o m I n li n e Tr a d in g w e r e p r o v i d e d b y M r M n g a d i . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t i s tr u e a n d t h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g y e s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . M y c h a l le n g e w i th t h i s d o c u m e n t t h o u g h is t h a t th e o n ly p l a c e w h e r e M r Ki n g i s r e fe r e n c e d i s a c tu a lly i n t h is d ia g r a m t h a t w e a r e l o o k in g a t – a t p a g e 2 - 8 – s o r r y – 2 - 7 - 3 a n d a c t u a ll y w h e n y o u g e t to g i v e th e q u a l i fi c a ti o n s a n d e x p e r i e n c e o f y o u r t e a m m e m b e r s l a t e r i n t h a t d o c u m e n t e v e r y o n e fr o m B N P C a p i t a l is t h e r e b u t n o o n e fr o m I n l in e Tr a d i n g is th e r e . A r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t ? Page 158 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No I am not aware. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y b u t ju s t fo r c o m p le t e n e s s le t u s g o to i t . I t is a t p a g e 2 - 7 - 9 o f t h a t s a m e b u n d le - E X H I B I T D D 2 . S e e a s I h a v e i t w e a r e p r o g r e s s i n g i n t h e d o c u m e n t th a t w a s s u b m i t t e d . W e s t a r t w i t h y o u r te a m s tr u c tu r e t h a t is th e p a g e w e h a v e j u s t l o o k e d a t w i th t h e d i a g r a m a n d i t is i d e n ti f y i n g y o u r s e l f a s t h e H e a d a n d a m o n g s t th e p e o p l e i n s e c o n d c o m m a n d a r e M r Ki n g a n d n o w y o u c o m e t o p a g e 2 - 7 9 w h a t is t h e h e a d i n g o f t h a t s e c t io n o f t h i s p r o p o s a l? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Te a m q u a li f ic a ti o n s – s o r r y. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Te a m q u a li fi c a t io n s , t h a n k y o u . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And th e n who are th e people who are r e fe r e n c e d t h e r e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s B N P C a p i t a l p e o p le . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . S o y o u – y o u a c c e p t t h e p r o p o s it i o n I p u t to y o u w h ic h is t h a t t h e r e i s n o i n f o r m a t io n a t a ll o f a n y o n e fr o m I n li n e Tr a d in g ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . 20 CHAIRPERSON: U n d e r t h e c o l u m n w i t h y o u r q u a li fi c a t io n s t h e r e – t h e r e i s M B A D is s e r t a ti o n . W h a t d i d t h a t m e a n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: MBA … CHAIRPERSON: U n d e r th e c o l u m n a t p a g e 2 - 7 - 9 th a t g i v e s y o u r q u a li fi c a t io n s . T h e r e is M B A D i s s e r ta t io n . W h a t d i d t h a t m e a n ? I j u s t a s k b e c a u s e I d i d n o t s e e t h a t q u a l i fic a ti o n w h e n w e w e r e d e a li n g w i t h Page 159 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 y o u r q u a l i fic a ti o n s e a r li e r o n . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: p o i n t i n m y l if e I d i d M B A . Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. At some Ye s a n d I w a s li k e j u s t l e ft w i t h t h is d is s e r ta t io n a n d I … CHAIRPERSON: So d i s s e r ta t io n meant – you meant that the d is s e r ta t io n w a s s til l o u ts t a n d in g ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D e f in it e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d n o t c o m p le t e d i t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h la n g u a s I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e B N P w a s g o i n g t o b e th e l e a d in t h i s c o n s o r t iu m i n i ts e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h S A A . C o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t B N P i ts e l f h a d n o in t e r a c t io n s w i th S A A . C o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s th a t e v e n t h e p o s i t io n a f t e r t h e a w a r d o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r I m a y h a v e m is s e d s o m e t h in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t s o m e s t a g e I t h i n k y o u w e r e r a i s i n g t h e p o in t th a t h e p u t t h e n a m e s o f p e o p le fr o m B N P I t h i n k w i t h t h e ir q u a li f ic a t i o n s … Page 160 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o b o d y fr o m I n l in e Tr a d i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I d id n o t h e a r w h a t t h e a n s w e r w a s t o t h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s I h a v e i t h e r e h e a c c e p t e d t h a t . C o r r e c t? C H A I R P E R S O N : H e a c c e p te d th a t , j a . O k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e – o k a y, l e t m e – M s H o f m e y r p u t t h e q u e s t io n t o y o u t h a t i t a p p e a r e d t h a t y o u o n l y p u t s t a ff f r o m B N P a s th e p e o p l e 10 w h o w e r e i n v o lv e d i n t h e p r o je c t a s I u n d e r s t o o d t h e q u e s t i o n a n d th e r e w a s n o b o d y m e n ti o n e d f r o m I n l in e Tr a d i n g . Do you remember her a s k in g t h a t q u e s t io n ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u c o n fir m t h a t th a t – t h a t w a s s o ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: T h a t y o u d i d n o t p u t , i n c lu d e o r m e n ti o n a n y b o d y fr o m I n l in e Tr a d in g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . I – I g u e s s o n my p a r t i t w a s a n o v e r s ig h t b a s e d o n – o n t h e – y o u k n o w – o n t h e f a c t t h a t a s I 20 s a i d i n th e b e g i n n in g t h a t I w a s n o t a c t u a l ly in v o lv e d w i t h th is – w it h t h is d o c u m e n t a t i o n . S o a t t h e b e g in n i n g w h e n – y o u k n o w – my g u y s a t t h e o ff ic e w e r e r u n n i n g w i t h i t M n g a d i w a s p a r t o f i t. Ye s a n d t h e n a t t h e e l e v e n th h o u r h e p u l le d o u t . S o I – s o I th in k … CHAIRPERSON: Did you say Mngadi? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . Mr M a s o ts h a M n g a d i . Page 161 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . A t t h e e l e v e n th h o u r h e p u ll e d o u t b a s e d o n th e l e t te r o v e r t h e w e e k e n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o I t h i n k t h i n g s j u s t f e ll through the cracks then. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h a t y o u o n l y k n e w r e c e n t ly, n o t t h e n , th a t h e p u ll e d o u t a n d s u g g e s t e d th a t s o m e b o d y e ls e ’s n a m e b e in c l u d e d in h is place. 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I saw on the – yes I just saw – I o n ly k n e w n o w a s f a r a s t h e e m a i l, I t h o u g h t h e w a s ju s t i n s tr u c ti n g m y g u y s to a c t u a lly d o th a t , b e c a u s e I s a w Mr k in g , I th o u g h t p e r h a p s – b e c a u s e h e w a s a c t u a ll y j u s t e n g a g i n g w i t h m y g u y s a s f a r a s t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f t h is d o c u m e n t is c o n c e r n e d , s o I t h o u g h t t h a t w a s – y o u k n o w, t h e y u n d e r s t o o d b u t w h e n I s a w th e e m a i l n o w i t s h o w s t h a t h e a c t u a ll y asked them to remove his d e t a ils on th a t p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y l e t m e m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t . Are you s a y in g t h a t a t t h a t t i m e , y o u w e r e a w a r e t h a t M r M n g a d i h a d a s k e d t h a t 20 h is n a m e b e w i t h d r a w n o r s h o u l d n o t b e i n a n d t h a t t h e n a m e o f Mr B r a n d o n K i n g b e t h e o n e th a t w o u l d b e p u t i n , i n th e p l a c e o f h i s n a m e b u t w h a t y o u w e r e s e e i n g fo r t h e fir s t t i m e , a b o u t t w o w e e k s a g o o r s o w a s t h e e m a i l? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, w h a t I’ m s a y in g i s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th a t w a s s t ill p a r t o f t h i s a n d w h e n Page 162 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h i n g s w e r e d o n e b e c a u s e t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n h a p p e n e d o v e r t h e w e e k e n d a n d w h e n t h in g s w e r e d o n e f o r h i m t o a c tu a lly r e q u e s t o n e o f o u r g u y s t o r e m o v e h i s n a m e t h a t w a s – I w a s n o t a w a r e o f th a t b u t w h e n p e o p l e – w h e n n a m e s o f p e o p l e w e r e a c t u a lly p u t i n th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h e g u y s ti ll a I n l in e Tr a d i n g g u y s o I d i d n ’ t a c t u a l ly t h i n k a b o u t i t to t h e p o in t w h e r e I w o u l d s t a r t q u e s t io n in g a s t o w h y d i d h e w i t h d r a w h i s i n f o r m a t i o n , s o t h a t d id n ’ t a c t u a ll y b o th e r m e a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t ’s o n ly n o w w h e n y o u k n o w i n h i n d s i g h t w it h a l l t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t y o u r e a li s e b a s i c a ll y y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b e c a u s e o n e w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t M r M n g a d i , o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t h a v i n g b e e n t h e le a d g u y fr o m I n l i n e Tr a d i n g , y o u k n o w, h e c a m e t o y o u , h e m e t w i t h y o u fo r th e fir s t t i m e a n d h e w a s v e r y a c t iv e a n d s o o n , t h a t h e w o u l d b e s u r p r is e d if , i n d o c u m e n t s th a t w e r e s u p p o s e d t o r e fl e c t w h o i s in v o lv e d w i t h I n li n e Tr a d i n g , w h o a r e th e p e o p le i n In li n e Tr a d i n g y o u ’l l b e s u r p r is e d if h i s n a m e d i d n o t a p p e a r in t h a t lis t w o u l d n ’ t y o u ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 CHAIRPERSON: Tr u e C h a ir. Ye s a n d o n e w o u l d t h e r e f o r e – p a r ti c u la r ly f o r s o m e b o d y th a t a c ti v e i n r e g a r d t o I n l in e Tr a d i n g ’s b u s i n e s s t h a t o n e w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t h e w o u l d s a y, w e ll I w a n t t o f in d o u t h o w c o m e a n d t h a t h e w o u ld h a v e a s k e d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e C h a ir a n d as I s a i d , I th i n k w h e n th i n g s w e r e a c t u a ll y m o v in g a t th a t p a c e a t t h a t p o i n t Page 163 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 in t i m e o n e a c t u a ll y d i d n ’ t a s k a l o t a n d f o r o b v i o u s – n o t f o r o b v i o u s r e a s o n s b u t t h i n g s w e r e j u s t m o v i n g a n d h e n c e I s a id e v e n t h is l e t t e r ju s t g o t it n o w t o s a y r e m o v e m e b u t n o - o n e e v e n t o l d m e a t t h e o ffi c e t o s a y, y o u k n o w w h a t – r e q u e s te d t h e l e tt e r t o s a y w e m u s t r e m o v e b e c a u s e i t w a s j u s t a d d r e s s e d t o o n e o f t h e e m p l o y e e s . Ye s s o I t h i n k o n m y p a r t a l s o I w il l a c tu a l ly t a k e r e s p o n s ib il it y fo r th a t t o s a y p e r h a p s w h a t o n e s h o u ld h a v e a c t u a ll y d o n e w a s t o a c t u a lly a s k a s t o w h y b u t in h i n d s i g h t b e c a u s e I th in k w h e n y o u r u n a b u s i n e s s y o u d o n ’ t r u n a b u s i n e s s w i t h t h e in t e n ti o n t h a t y o u ’r e g o i n g t o b e ( i n d is t in c t) i n t h e 10 p r o c e s s s o w e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: Well at the same time you have to guard – you have t o b e a l e r t a s t o w h o y o u ’r e d e a l i n g w it h b e c a u s e o th e r w is e y o u d o n ’ t h a v e th e b e s t i n te r e s t o f y o u r o w n b u s i n e s s a t h e a r t i f y o u a r e n o t g o i n g to a t le a s t ta k e r e a s o n a b l e s te p s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t p e o p le th a t y o u a r e s e e n w it h a r e n o t – o r y o u ’r e s e e n to b e a s s o c ia t e d w i t h i n b u s i n e s s a r e n o t g o i n g to b e p e o p l e th a t m a y g iv e y o u r c o m p a n y a b a d name. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e C h a ir, I a g r e e thank you. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u i f I m a y I’ d l ik e t o p r o c e e d t o t h o s e p a r t s o f t h e b i d th a t y o u c o m p l e t e d a n d i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h y o u n e e d e d t o s a t is fy y o u r s e l f a s to th e a c c u r a c y o f t h e in f o r m a t io n y o u w e r e p r o v i d i n g a n d fo r t h a t p u r p o s e I’ d j u s t li k e t o p r e f a c e t h e q u e s t io n s w i th , t h e s p e e d o v e r t h e R F I s u b m is s io n is n o w o v e r f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t h is b i d s u b m is s i o n b e c a u s e t h a t h a p p e n e d o n th e 1 6 t h o f Page 164 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 F e b r u a r y a n d n o w y o u ’v e g o t a m o n t h a n d tw o d a y s b e fo r e y o u p r e p a r e a n d s u b m it t h e b id s u b m is s i o n , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t ? CHAIRPERSON: I guess before you submit you have to prepare and s u b m i t b e fo r e y o u s u b m i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o t h e r e a n u m b e r o f d e c l a r a ti o n s t h a t y o u g a v e i n t h a t b i d th a t w a s s u b m i t t e d o n t h e 1 8 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 6 I’ d li k e to t a k e y o u t o t h e fi r s t o f t h o s e , i f y o u p i c k u p t h e s o f t fi le i n 10 fr o n t o f y o u a n d y o u g o to i n t e r n a l p a g e 1 9 o f 5 5 a n d fo r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s t h a t w i ll b e f o u n d in E x h ib i t D D 2 w h ic h is M s N h a n t s i ’s b u n d le at page 212, do you see that document Mr Mahlangu? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It ’s P N 2 1 2 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P N 2 1 2 in t e r n a l p a g e 1 9 o f 5 5 , a r e y o u o n t h a t page? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u w h a t is t h is d o c u m e n t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e d e c l a r a ti o n o f i n t e r e s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o i n te r n a l p a g e 2 0 20 o f 5 5 w h i c h w il l b e f o u n d in E x h i b it D D 1 a t p a g e 3 9 1 w h ic h i s M s S t i m p e l ’s b u n d l e p l e a s e r e a d fo r u s w h a t y o u a r e d e c l a r i n g w h e n y o u s ig n t h a t d o c u m e n t a n d I p ic k i t u p a t t h e p l a c e i n d ic a t e d 3 , d e c l a r a t io n o n t h a t p a g e , c a n y o u r e a d fo r u s w h a t y o u d e c l a r e b y s i g n i n g t h a t document? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, Page 165 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 “ I B o l a s a n i D a n ie l M a h l a n g u t h e u n d e r s i g n e d c e r ti fy th a t th e in f o r m a ti o n f u r n i s h e d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 to 3 .1 is c o r r e c t , a c c e p t t h a t th e p r i n c ip a l m a y a c t a g a in s t m e in t e r ms o f p a r a g r a p h 2 3 of th e general c o n d i t io n s of the c o n tr a c t s h o u ld this d e c l a r a ti o n p r o v e to b e f a l s e ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you did you understand then what you w e r e d o i n g w h e n y o u s i g n e d th is d e c l a r a ti o n , y o u w e r e g i v i n g t h a t c o n fir m a t io n a s to t h e c o r r e c t n e s s o f th e i n f o r m a ti o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . T h a n k y o u , i f w e g o b a c k t o th e p a g e , t h e a s p e c t t h a t I’ m i n t e r e s t e d in i s t h e o n e t h a t a p p e a r s a t p o in t 2 . 2 o n in t e r n a l p a g e 1 9 , y o u ’l l s e e th e r e t h a t t h e d e c l a r a ti o n o f i n te r e s t a s k s y o u t o a n s w e r t h e f o l lo w in g q u e s t io n , “ d o y o u o r a n y p e r s o n c o n n e c t e d w i th t h e b i d d e r h a v e a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p , f a m il y, fr i e n d o r o th e r w i t h t h e p e r s o n e m p l o y e d b y t h e p r i n c ip a l w h o m a y b e i n v o lv e d i n t h e e v a l u a t io n a n d / o r a d j u d ic a ti o n o f th is b i d ” , Do you see that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 I ’ m n o t s u r e i f I’ m o n th e s a m e page. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . CHAIRPERSON: Th a t ’s 2 . 2 a t p a g e P N 2 1 2 in t e r n a l p a g e 1 9 o f 5 5 . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: Oh 2.12? T h e p a g e is in t e r n a l p a g e 1 9 o f 5 5 , t h e o n e o n t h e top…(intervention). Page 166 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t fi l e n o w ? T h e s o f t fi le th a n k y o u a n d i f y o u g o b a c k a p a g e , I t h i n k y o u ’ ll fi n d a t t h e b o t t o m in t e r n a l p a g e 1 9 o f 5 5 . Thank y o u , a p o l o g i e s M r M a h l a n g u I d i d n ’ t r e a li s e y o u w e r e n ’ t th e r e . D o y o u see clause 2.2 at the bottom of that page? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i t a s k y o u t o a n s w e r is a q u e s ti o n , “ D o y o u o r a n y p e r s o n c o n n e c t e d w it h t h e b i d d e r h a v e a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p , f a m il y, fr i e n d o r o th e r w i t h t h e p e r s o n e m p l o y e d 10 b y t h e p r in c i p a l t h a t in th is c a s e is a r e f e r e n c e to S A A , a n d w h o m a y b e i n v o lv e d i n t h e e v a l u a t io n o r a d j u d ic a ti o n o f t h is bid”, Do you see that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : that you Ye s . I u n d e r s t o o d fr o m y o u r e v id e n c e t h is m o r n i n g d id n ’ t e n q u ir e of Mr Mngadi if he had any personal r e l a ti o n s h i p s w i th p e r s o n s a t S A A w h e n y o u m e t w i t h h i m o r i g i n a l ly, is that correct? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u m a k e a n y e n q u ir i e s o f h i m b e f o r e y o u fi ll e d o u t t h is d e c l a r a t i o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h o w d id y o u a n s w e r, n o t o t h a t q u e s t io n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Because in our knowledge Mr M n g a d i w a s a c t u a ll y r u n n i n g h is o w n b u s i n e s s . Page 167 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: Was what? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: R u n n in g h is o w n e n t i ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : R u n n i n g is o w n e n t it y ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : In li n e Tr a d i n g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: D e fi n i t e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h e n w h y w o u l d n ’ t t h a t s t il l h a v e a p p l ie d b e c a u s e t h e q u e s ti o n a s k s y o u w h e t h e r y o u o r a n y p e r s o n c o n n e c t e d 10 w i t h t h e b i d d e r, a n d I n li n e Tr a d i n g w a s y o u r c o n s o r ti u m p a r tn e r. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . S o w h y w o u ld n ’ t t h e y h a v e b e e n p e o p le t h a t y o u h a d t o e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r t h e y h a d a n y p e r s o n a l r e l a t i o n s h ip s w i th p e o p l e w h o w e r e g o i n g t o b e a d ju d i c a t in g t h is b i d ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: To b e h o n e s t I d i d n ’ t a c tu a lly ask them. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o s h e u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t , s h e ’s a s k i n g w h y y o u d i d n ’ t s e e i t a s i m p o r ta n t o r r e le v a n t o r a s y o u r d u t y t o a s k Mr M n g a d i b e fo r e g iv i n g a n s w e r t o th is q u e s ti o n . M a y b e l e t ’s d o i t t h i s w a y, ju s t l o o k a t 20 t h a t q u e s t io n , 2 . 2 d o y o u s e e it ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d o . CHAIRPERSON: Ja it says, “ d o y o u o r a n y p e r s o n c o n n e c t e d w i th t h e b i d d e r h a v e a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p ( fa m i ly, f r i e n d o r o th e r ) w i t h a p e r s o n e m p l o y e d b y t h e p r in c i p a l a n d w h o m a y b e in v o lv e d w i t h t h e e v a lu a ti o n Page 168 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a n d / o r a d ju d i c a t io n o f t h i s b id ” , Yo u s e e t h a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I d o C h a ir. N o w o f c o u r s e y o u d id k n o w w h e t h e r y o u h a v e h a d a n y r e l a t i o n s h ip w it h a n y o f th o s e p e o p l e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t n o w i t g o e s f u r th e r i t s a y s , “ a n y p e r s o n c o n n e c t e d w it h t h e b i d d e r ” , Who was the bidder here, what was your understanding of who 10 the bidder was? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It ’s u s a n d In li n e Tr a d in g . CHAIRPERSON: Sorry? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It ’s B n P a n d In li n e Tr a d i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o t h e q u e s ti o n – p a r t o f t h e q u e s t i o n t h e n w a s , d o y o u o r d o e s a n y p e r s o n c o n n e c te d w i t h B n P a n d I n l in e Tr a d i n g , h a v e a n y r e l a t i o n s h ip w it h a p e r s o n e m p l o y e d b y th e p r i n c ip a l a n d w h o m a y b e i n v o lv e d w i t h t h e e v a l u a t io n a n d / o r a d j u d ic a ti o n o f t h is b i d . O n e , i n M r M n g a d i w o u ld f a l l w i th i n t h a t , is n ’ t i t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s tr u e Ye s s o d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u s h o u ld h a v e c h e c k e d w h e t h e r h e h a d a n y s u c h r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e p e r s o n s c o n te m p l a t e d i n t h a t q u e s ti o n a t S A A , d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t h e is o n e o f t h e p e o p l e t h e q u e s t io n e x p e c te d y o u t o d e a l w it h w h e n y o u s a y, n o , t h e r e is n o p e r s o n c o n n e c te d w i th t h e b i d d e r w h o h a s a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h a n y b o d y w h o m i g h t b e i n v o lv e d i n th e e v a lu a ti o n o r a d j u d ic a ti o n o f t h e Page 169 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 bid? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s t h a t’s t r u e s ir I t h in k o b v i o u s i n o u r d is c u s s i o n i t d i d n ’ t in d i c a t e to u s w h e t h e r h e ’s g o t a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p s , I m e a n , a n y f a m il y o r fr ie n d o r o th e r t h a t a r e a c t u a l ly in v o lv e d in t h e a d j u d ic a ti o n o f t h is p r o c e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t l e a v e o u t w h a t h e d id n ’t s a y, y o u w e r e th e o n e w h o w a s g o in g t o g iv e a n a n s w e r t o th e q u e s t i o n a n d y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d to g i v e a t r u t h fu l a n s w e r o k a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Therefore if you didn’t know whether he had such r e l a ti o n s h i p s – s u c h a r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h s o m e b o d y a t S A A t h e n y o u h a d a n o b l ig a ti o n t o a s k h i m , is n ’ t it ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s tr u e s ir. A n d th e q u e s ti o n is , y o u d i d n ’ t a s k h i m , w h y n o t before saying, here no? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e w a y I r e a d t h e q u e s ti o n , t h e q u e s t io n w a s , i n e s s e n c e I th i n k f o c u s e d o n u s a s B n P C a p i ta l a n d o u r c o n s o r ti u m . I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir a n d M s H o f m e y r th a t p e r h a p s w e c o u ld h a v e a c t u a l ly a s k e d th a t p a r ti c u la r q u e s ti o n b u t i n o u r 20 e n g a g e m e n t w e – a t t h a t p o in t i n ti m e w e d i d n ’ t a c t u a l ly s u s p e c t a n y th in g s o a s I s a i d t h a t t i m e w a s o f e s s e n c e s o w e j u s t s i g n e d t h e document and moved on. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l M s H o f m e y r t o ld y o u e a r l i e r o n t h e ti m e w h e n y o u d id n ’t h a v e m u c h ti m e t h a t is b e f o r e t h e c l o s in g d a t e f o r t h e R F I i s g o n e , t h is i s n o w w h e n y o u h a d a b o u t a m o n t h t o p u t in t h e b i a s I Page 170 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i ti o n , s o y o u – t i m e w a s n o t a p r o b le m t o fi n d o u t w h o a m o n g t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e in v o lv e d i n t h is b i d o n t h e p a r t o f y o u r c o n s o r ti u m m i g h t h a v e r e l a t i o n s h ip w it h p e o p l e a t S A A . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir h e n c e I s a id a s f a r a s t h e n a t u r e o f b u s i n e s s is c o n c e r n e d I t h i n k I ’v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n m a n y o f t h e s e t h i n g s a n d I h a v e n ’ t b e e n a s k e d t h i s p a r t ic u l a r q u e s ti o n s o n o w l o o k i n g b a c k i n h i n d s i g h t p e r h a p s t h a t’s th e q u e s t io n t h a t ’s s u p p o s e d to b e a s k e d o n a c o n s t a n t b a s is b u t i n o u r n a t u r e o f o u r b u s i n e s s , I h a v e n ’ t a c tu a ll y b e e n a s k e d t h is p a r ti c u l a r 10 q u e s t io n a n d w h e n w e a c t u a l ly e n g a g e d w it h M n g a d i d i d n ’ t g i v e u s a n y in d i c a t io n t h a t h e ’s i n v o lv e d o r t h a t h e d o e s n ’ t a c t u a ll y – h e ’s g o t a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p s b u t I d o a g r e e w i t h C h a ir, p e r h a p s I s h o u l d h a v e a s k e d the question. CHAIRPERSON: b u t t h e o th e r t h i n g in t e r m s o f w h a t M r M n g a d i t o l d y o u r ig h t fr o t h e b e g i n n in g i n t e r m s o f y o u r o w n e v i d e n c e i s it th a t h e h a d a l o n g - s t a n d i n g r e la t io n s h i p w i t h S A A i s n ’ t it ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s tr u e . Ye s s o I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t w h e n y o u s e a q u e s t io n l ik e t h is , a n d k n o w i n g t h a t M r M n g a d i i s a p e r s o n c o n n e c t e d 20 w i t h th e b i d d e r, a s c o n te m p l a t e d i n t h is q u e s t io n , th a t , th a t w o u ld b e t h e t i m e w h e n y o u w o u l d s a y, y o u k n o w w h a t, M r M n g a d i c a m e h e r e a n d h e in d i c a t e d h e h a s b e e n in v o lv e d w i t h S A A f o r a l o n g ti m e I n e e d t o fi n d o u t i f h e ’s g o t a n y s u c h r e la t io n s h i p s b e f o r e I c a n a n s w e r th is q u e s t io n , t h a t ’s w h a t I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d y o u t o d o , w h a t d o y o u s a y to that? Page 171 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I a g r e e w i th y o u C h a ir, I th i n k in h i n d s ig h t y o u k n o w if o n e w a s g iv e n t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e d o u b t , y e s a ll o f u s s h o u ld b e d o i n g t h a t b u t I g u e s s i t ’s t h e n a t u r e o f t h e b u s in e s s s o o th e r w i s e w e w o u l d n ’ t a c t u a ll y c o m p le t e t h is d o c u m e n t i f w e h a d t o g o t h r o u g h e a c h a n d e v e r y p o i n t a n d a n s w e r. CHAIRPERSON: N o li s te n M r M a h l a n g u h o w c a n y o u s a y t h a t , y o u ’r e n o t s u p p o s e to s ig n a n y d o c u m e n t , u n le s s y o u h a v e r e a d it a n d y o u ’r e n o t s u p p o s e t o g i v e i n fo r m a t i o n a s – a n d g iv e i t a s t r u e w h e n y o u d o n ’ t k n o w i f it ’s t r u e a n d h e r e y o u a r e a s k e d , o n t h e n e x t p a g e , y o u d o 10 c e r t if y – y o u d o c e r ti fy, y o u s a y, “ I B o l a s a n i D a n i e l M a h la n g u , th e u n d e r s i g n e d c e r t i fy th a t t h e in f o r m a ti o n fu r n is h e d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 .1 to 2 . 1 . 3 a b o v e is correct”, S o y o u a r e t e ll in g t h e p e o p l e w h o m u s t a d j u d ic a te h e r e t h a t y o u r a n s w e r s t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n h e r e a r e c o r r e c t . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y e t w e f in d o u t n o w th a t y o u d o n ’t k n o w a n d y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w t h e n w h e t h e r M r M n g a d i w a s a p e r s o n c o n n e c t e d w i t h th e b i d d e r a s th e q u e s t i o n c o n t e m p l a t e d h a d s o m e b o d y w i th w h o m h e h a d a 20 f a m ily o r o t h e r r e l a ti o n s h i p a t S A A , c a n y o u s e e t h a t i t m e a n s t h a t y o u g a v e in c o r r e c t i n fo r m a t i o n b e c a u s e y o u g a v e t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t y o u k n e w t h a t th e r e w a s n o b o d y c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e b id d e r w h o k n e w somebody at SAA who could be in v o lv e d in the e v a l u a t io n or a d j u d ic a ti o n o f th e b i d a n d y e t y o u a r e s a y in g th a t y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s C h a ir, I t h i n k f o r – I d o Page 172 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a g r e e i n s o m e o f t h e a s p e c ts o f y o u r d is c u s s io n b u t p e r h a p s i t ’s in c o r r e c t t o s a y I g a v e t h e w r o n g i n f o r m a ti o n , I t h in k a t th a t p o i n t i n t ie w h e n w e d id th e b id a n d b a s e d o n in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s a v a i la b le to u s , w e t o o k th a t d e c is io n . CHAIRPERSON: N o l e t ’s d e a l w it h t h a t. D i d y o u k n o w a t t h a t ti m e w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n y b o d y c o n n e c te d w it h th e b i d d e r w h o h a d a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p , f a m ily, fr i e n d o r o t h e r w i t h a p e r s o n e m p l o y e d b y t h e p r i n c i p a l a n d w h o m a y b e i n v o lv e d w i t h t h e e v a l u a t i o n o r a d j u d ic a ti o n o f t h e b id , d i d y o u k n o w ? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: No there wasn’t. N o , a r e y o u s a y i n g n o y o u d id n o t k n o w o r a r e y o u s a y in g n o t h e r e w a s n ’ t a n y b o d y l ik e t h a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: I d i d n ’ t k n o w. B u t y o u r a n s w e r h e r e d o e s n ’ t s a y y o u d o n ’ t k n o w, i t says no there was no such person. L o o k a t t h e a n s w e r, y o u s a id n o didn’t you? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s h e n c e s ir I’ m s a y in g I d i d say I don’t know – I mean I did say no and the reason why I did say no b e c a u s e p e o p l e a m o n g s t o u r t e a m n o - o n e a c t u a ll y h a d t h a t r e l a t i o n s h i p 20 with SAA. CHAIRPERSON: N o Mr M a h l a n g u , i f t h e q u e s ti o n r e q u i r e s y o u t o in d i c a t e w h a t y o u k n o w, y o u h a v e to in d ic a t e w h a t y o u k n o w, if y o u d o n ’t k n o w y o u s a y y o u d o n ’ t k n o w. N o w h e r e y o u a r e b e in g a s k e d t h e q u e s t io n w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n y b o d y c o n n e c t e d w it h t h e b i d d e r w h o h a d f a m ily r e l a ti o n s h i p s or fr i e n d s h ip with Page 173 of 221 anybody involved in the 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 e v a l u a t i o n o r a d ju d ic a t i o n o f t h e b id a n d i f y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w, y o u n e e d e d t o a s k p e o p le o r g e t w h a t e v e r i n fo r m a t i o n s o t h a t w h e n y o u a n s w e r y o u a n s w e r it fr o m a p o s i ti o n o f k n o w l e d g e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir. O t h e r w is e if y o u d i d n ’ t d o – m a k e t h o s e e n q u ir i e s , y o u r o n ly c o r r e c t a n s w e r w o u ld b e , s o m e t h i n g l ik e , y o u d i d n o t h a v e a n y s u c h r e la t io n s h i p b u t y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w i f t h e r e w a s a n y b o d y e l s e w h o m i g h t h a v e t h a t r e la t io n s h i p b u t … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e q u e s t i o n a g a i n is w h y d i d n ’ t y o u c h e c k , w h y d i d n ’ t y o u m a k e t h o s e e n q u ir i e s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e r e w a s n o d o u b t in m y m i n d t h a t a n y b o d y i n o u r t e a m a c t u a l ly h a d t h a t, y e s , h o w e v e r in h in d s ig h t C h a ir – y e s s o t h a t m a y b e w e d o n ’ t s p e n d t o o m u c h t i m e , I t h i n k i n h i n d s i g h t I a g r e e w i th y o u t h a t p e r h a p s i t ’s a n e x e r c is e t h a t o n e n e e d s t o d o g o in g f o r w a r d y e s e s p e c i a l ly a s fa r a s th is e x e r c is e s i s c o n c e r n e d b u t I th in k a t t h a t p o in t in ti m e o n e j u s t t o o k it f o r g r a n t e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h e n y o u s a y in y o u r t e a m , d o y o u i n c lu d e M r M n g a d i? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . B u t y o u h a d n ’ t k n o w n M r M n g a d i fo r a l o n g t i m e , u n li k e m a y b e t h e o t h e r p e o p l e in y o u r o ffi c e a n d I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t y o u w o u ld th i n k n o , y o u k n o w, t h i s m a n I h a v e n ’ t k n o w n f o r a l o n g Page 174 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 ti m e , I m u s t a s k h i m , y o u d i d n ’ t th i n k a b o u t d o in g i t th a t w a y ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr M a h la n g u w e ’ v e d e a l t w i t h – w h a t I’ m f o c u s i n g o n n o w a r e d o c u m e n t s a n d d e c l a r a ti o n s t h a t y o u w e r e r e s p o n s ib l e fo r a n d w e ’v e l o o k e d a t t h e d e c la r a t io n o f in t e r e s t I t h e n w a n t to t a k e y o u t o o n e o f th e l e t t e r s th a t y o u s e n t o u t i n th e c o u r s e o f t h i s e n g a g e m e n t w i t h S A A , i t is a le t t e r t h a t w a s a c tu a lly s e n t t o t h e r e p r e s e n t a t iv e o f G r i s s a g , M r v a n d e r M e r w e . Yo u r e f e r e n c e i t i n 10 y o u r s t a t e m e n t , i t ’s t h e l a s t a n n e x u r e b e c a u s e i t ’s a n e m a il t h a t c o m e s fr o m M r M n g a d i w i t h th e t e x t o f t h e l e t te r t h a t h e w a n ts y o u to s e n d o n t o G r i s s a g s o I’ m j u s t o r ie n t a t i n g y o u , I w a n t t o fi n d th e le t t e r fi r s t t h a t w e n t to G r is s a g , y o u ’l l fi n d t h a t in M r v a n d e r M e r w e ’s b u n d l e w h ic h is E x h i b i t D D 3 , C h a i r y o u s h o u l d a ls o h a v e t h a t a v a il a b l e to y o u , i t ’s Exhibit DD3. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I d o n ’t h a v e D D 3 h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s a fi le lik e th is , i f y o u c a n l o o k t h is w a y. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Oh. T h a n k y o u I’ m i n d e b t e d C h a ir m i n e is a h a r d le v e r a r c h f il e s o I w o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n a n y th e w is e r. M r M a h la n g u if y o u t u r n i n t h a t b u n d l e to p a g e 1 8 i t ’s u n d e r t a b 4 , d o y o u s e e t h a t document? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n th e d o c u m e n t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s i t ’s m i n e . Page 175 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d is th a t a l e t te r t h a t y o u ’r e f a m il ia r w i t h h a v i n g s e n t to M r P e te r v a n d e r M e r w e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I’v e s e e n i t y e s . A n d l e t m e j u s t a s s is t y o u b e c a u s e y o u d o p r o v i d e , in y o u r s ta t e m e n t , t h e e m a i l v e r s i o n o f t h i s t h a t c a m e fr o m M r M n g a d i , y o u m i g h t r e c a ll th a t , it ’s r ig h t a t t h e e n d o f y o u r b u n d l e a n d y o u ’ ll fi n d i t t h e r e a t p a g e 1 4 5 . CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry what page? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 1 4 5 o f M r M a h la n g u ’s b u n d l e w h ic h is D D 11 I t h i n k , n o D D 4 a p o lo g i e s C h a ir. D o y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t M r M a h l a n g u ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . T h a n k y o u , M r M a h l a n g u t h i s is a le t t e r t h a t w a s s e n t to M r v a n d e r M e r w e o n th e 2 2 n d o f A p r i l , y o u ’ll p i c k u p th a t d a t e o n th e e m a i le d v e r s i o n w h ic h i s a t t a c h e d to y o u r s t a te m e n t , d o you see that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Thank you and the evidence of Mr van der M e r w e c o n fi r m e d t h a t h e r e c e i v e d t h is l e t t e r o n t h e 2 2 n d o f A p r il . W h a t I’ m i n te r e s t e d i n is t h e fi r s t l in e o f t h a t l e t te r, M r M a h l a n g u b e c a u s e i t 20 says, “ p l e a s e f in d a t t a c h e d u n d e r c o v e r h e r e o f, a m a n d a t e f r o m S o u th A f r i c a n A ir w a y s w h e r e b y S A A a m o n g s t o th e r s m a n d a t e s B n P – s o r r y B H P I t h i n k th a t ’s a ty p in g e r r o r, C a p it a l, t o r a is e and arrange funding for and on behalf of SAA for the purposes o f t h e c o n s o li d a t i o n o f S A A’s d e b t o f 1 5 b i ll io n r a n d ” , Page 176 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 Do you see that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n t h e 2 2 n d o f A p r il 2 0 1 6 B n P C a p i t a l h a d n o t b e e n a p p o i n t e d y e t t o s o u r c e f u n d s f o r S A A i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . S o w h y d o e s t h i s l e t t e r s t a t e t h a t it h a d b e e n s o a p p o i n te d ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : Th r o u g h y o u C h a ir, w h e n I a c t u a ll y s a w th is l e t te r w h i c h w a s a c t u a l l y ju s t a n e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n 10 M n g a d i a n d o n e o f m y e m p l o y e e s a t t h e o ffi c e , I t h i n k i t ’s o n ly n o w w h e n I a c t u a ll y p a y a t t e n ti o n t o i t t h a t – b e c a u s e a s f a r a s th e i n it i a l le t t e r w a s c o n c e r n e d it w a s a c t u a lly j u s t a tt a c h in g a p p o i n t m e n t le t t e r s a s f a r a s a d v is o r y is c o n c e r n e d b u t w h e n o n e g o e s t h r o u g h t h e d e ta il o f it th e n i t m e n ti o n s t h e c a p it a l r a is i n g , it ’s o n ly th e n t h a t – I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y i t a c t u a ll y w a s s e n t i n t h is p a r ti c u l a r f a s h i o n b u t i t ’s o n ly n o w t h a t it r a i s e s e y e b r o w s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o y o u d i d n ’ t c h e c k th is l e t te r b e f o r e y o u a l lo w e d y o u r s i g n a tu r e t o b e a p p e n d e d t o i t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 A s I s a i d i t w a s ju s t a n e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y I ’ m s t il l a t 1 4 5 , t h a t is fr o m M r M o y o n o t M r Mahlangu. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , a p o l o g i e s C h a ir y o u h a v e t o g o b a c k in t o Mr v a n d e r M e r w e ’s Ex h ib i t w h i c h is … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: What page again? Page 177 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t w a s p a g e 1 8 . C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 8 f r o m t h e s a m e fi le ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f D D 3 s o r r y C h a ir w e ’r e i n t h e s o ft f il e w h ic h is M r v a n d e r M e r w e ’s – t h e r e a r e s o m a n y p a g e s t o d a y i f y o u – 1 8 t h i s is th e l e t t e r w h ic h is a r e p l ic a o f t h e e m a il b u t t h i s is t h e o n e th a t c o n ta in s Mr M a h l a n g u ’s s i g n a t u r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t is a t t h is p o i n t t h a t I a s k M r M a h la n g u w h e t h e r h e r e a d t h is t e x t o f t h i s le t t e r b e f o r e h e s e n t i t t o M r v a n d e r 10 Merwe? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, i t w a s n ’ t s e n t b y m e i t w a s s e n t b y I v a n . S o a s I’ v e i n d i c a t e d b e f o r e t h e g u y s a t t h e o ff ic e t h a t t h e r e ’s a te m p l a te th a t t h e y u s e d t h a t y o u k n o w t h e y a p p e n d m y – i t ’s a c t u a l ly m y s i g n a t u r e i s t h e r e s o w h e n I lo o k e d a t it , i t was ju s t a correspondence b e tw e e n Mngadi and Ivan but the m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e t w e e n – I th in k t h e r e w a s a m is t a k e h e r e w i th th is B H , i t ’s s u p p o s e d to b e B n P a n d G r i s s a g a n d e v e n tu a l ly Iv a n s e n t th a t l e t te r t o … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 B u t M r M a h la n g u a p o lo g ie s , I d i d u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e e a r l ie r to b e t h a t t h e r e w a s a n e l e c tr o n ic s ig n a t u r e o f y o u r s a v a i la b le in B n P i s t h a t c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h e r e w a s a t e m p la t e , le t t e r t e m p l a te y e s t h a t t h e y w e r e u s i n g , e l e c tr o n ic s i g n a t u r e w a s c o n s ta n tl y there. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r li e r t o b e , Page 178 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 y o u w o u l d n o n e t h e l e s s c h e c k l e tt e r s t h a t w e r e b e i n g s e n t o u t i n y o u r n a m e , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Not in most cases it depends o n t h e n a tu r e o f t h a t p a r ti c u l a r l e t te r, i t ’s f o r i n s t a n c e w e – f o r i n s t a n c e in t h i s p a r t ic u l a r c a s e i t w a s j u s t a n e n g a g e m e n t , w h e n I r e a d t h e fir s t – t h e s u b j e c t o f t h e l e t te r, to m e i t g a v e m e th e i m p r e s s i o n th a t – M a s o ja i s a c t u a l ly i n tr o d u c in g G r i s s a g in t o t h e p i c tu r e a n d i t s a y s , t h i s is f i n e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: 10 tr a n s c r ip t w i ll Yo u s a y M a s o j a , t h a t i s M r M n g a d i , o t h e r w is e th e – anyone r e a d in g th e tr a n s c r ip t w i ll th i n k th a t ’s s o m e b o d y e ls e n o w. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: O k a y, s o r r y C h a ir, Mr M n g a d i b a s ic a lly c a m e u p w it h t h i s p a r tic u la r l e t te r y e s , a n d h a d a d i s c u s s i o n – there was a to and fro between him and the – one of my guys at the o ffic e a n d e v e n t u a l ly o n e o f m y g u y s a t th e o ffi c e p u t t h i s le t t e r o n t h e le t t e r h e a d a n d t h e n a t t a c h e d t h e le t t e r o f a p p o in t m e n t f o r – f o r tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v i s o r y a n d s e n t i t w it h . So and as far as I am c o n c e r n e d I d i d n o t a c tu a lly g o t h r o u g h i t t h a t m u c h b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t o k a y fi n e w h a t i s g o in g o n h e r e y o u a c tu a lly – y o u h a v e b e e n a c t u a ll y 20 M r M n g a d i is b r i n g G r i s s a g o n t h e ta b l e a n d y o u – i t i s a n i n tr o d u c t io n ty p e o f a d i s c u s s i o n b e c a u s e t h a t w a s s o m e o f h is r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u I r e a ll y w o u l d l ik e t o g e t c le a r w h a t y o u r k n o w l e d g e w a s a t t h e t i m e th a t t h is le t t e r w a s s e n t. D i d y o u lo o k a t t h e l e t te r b e fo r e i t w a s s e n t o u t b y M r M o y o b e a r i n g y o u r s ig n a tu r e ? Page 179 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o I d i d n o t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id y o u l e a r n o f i t s h o r tl y a f te r t h e 2 2 A p r i l? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o I d i d n o t . I d i d n o t a c t u a ll y – t o b e h o n e s t w it h y o u i t is n o w t h is l e t t e r t h a t m a k e s s e n s e t o m e . T h a t when I… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l w h e n d i d y o u s e e i t f o r th e fir s t ti m e t h is le t t e r ? A n d I d o n o t – I a m n o t a s k i n g fo r a d a t e I m e a n i n g r e c e n tl y in p r e p a r a ti o n f o r t h e c o m m i s s io n . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D e fi n i t e l y y e s . S o a t n o p o i n t i n 2 0 1 6 w h e n a ll o f t h is w a s g o i n g o n w e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h i s l e tt e r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o e s th a t c o n c e r n y o u th a t l e t t e r s w e r e b e i n g sent name out under your and r e p r e s e n t in g your company in c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e y o u h a d n o k n o w l e d g e t h a t t h o s e l e t t e r s w e r e b e i n g s e n t o u t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. I n s o m e in s t a n c e s I w o u l d b e c c ’ d y e s in t h o s e l e t t e r s . A s I h a v e in d ic a t e d a t t h e b e g i n n i n g t h a t I h a d y o u k n o w p r o f e s s io n a l s th a t w e r e a c tu a lly 20 r u n n in g s o m e o f t h e s e th in g s . S o if a l e t t e r i s n o t s o r t o f i m p l ic a t i n g o r t h e r e is n o t m u c h o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r le t t e r i t is ju s t a n i n tr o d u c t o r y l e t t e r s o I w o u l d n o t a c tu a l ly s p e n d ti m e o n i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l M r M a h l a n g u I a m g e t t in g q u i t e c o n c e r n e d . D id p e o p l e i n y o u r o ffi c e h a v e t h e – h a v e y o u r p e r m is s i o n o r a u t h o r i ty to p u t y o u r s ig n a tu r e o n le t t e r s t h a t y o u h a d n o t a p p r o v e d o r s e e n ? Page 180 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A t s o m e p o in t th e y d i d h e n c e I h a d t o a c t u a l ly c o m e u p w i t h a p o lic y t o s a y n o o n e a c t u a l ly u s e s m y e l e c tr o n ic s i g n a t u r e g o i n g f o r w a r d . CHAIRPERSON: H o w h a d th a t c o m e a b o u t t h a t y o u g a v e p e o p le i n y o u r o ffic e p e r m is s i o n t o p u t y o u r s i g n a t u r e t o – o n l e t te r s – correspondence that you had not seen? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: the nature of our business. T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir I th i n k i t i s I f f o r i n s t a n c e it is a q u e s ti o n o f t h e c o n te n t o f t h a t – i n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r l e tt e r a n d w h o i t a c t u a l ly a d d r e s s e s 10 t o a n d w h a t i t s a y s . S o i n m o s t i n s t a n c e s w h a t w o u l d u s u a lly h a p p e n i s if t h a t l e t te r g o e s t o a p a r tic u la r c l ie n t t h e n o b v i o u s l y o n e n e e d s t o a c t u a ll y l o o k a t th a t p a r t ic u l a r l e t t e r. O r o th e r w i s e I w o u l d g e t s o r t o f y o u k n o w a b r i e f o n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r a n d t h e c o n te n t o f t h e le t t e r b e c a u s e y o u – y o u k n o w b e c a u s e in m o s t c a s e s I w o u l d b e a w a y w h e n a c t u a ll y t h a t p a r tic u la r y o u k n o w e v e n t is a c t u a ll y t a k i n g p l a c e . CHAIRPERSON: I u n d e r s t a n d c o m p l e t e ly th e p o s i ti o n t h a t n o t e v e r y le t t e r fr o m y o u r – fr o m a c o m p a n y n e e d s t o b e s e e n b y t h e b o s s – b y the person in charge. That I accept. Of course in some cases you just c a n n o t o p e r a t e o n t h e b a s is th a t y o u m u s t s e e e v e r y l e t t e r o k a y b u t 20 w h a t i s n o r m a ll y d o n e is if y o u h a v e g o t p e o p l e a t a c e r t a i n l e v e l y o u le t th e m s i g n le t t e r s . T h e le t t e r s t h e y g o o u t o n t h e le t t e r h e a d o f th e o r g a n i s a t io n b u t w i t h th e ir s ig n a tu r e s a n d n o t y o u r s . A n d t h e o n e s th a t g o o u t w it h y o u r s i g n a t u r e w o u l d b e t h e o n e s th a t 1 . Yo u h a v e s e e n a n d y o u h a v e a p p r o v e d o r t h e o n e s th a t m i g h t f a l l in t o a c a te g o r y w h ic h is n o n - c o n te n ti o u s m a y b e i f i t is – y o u Page 181 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 m i g h t h a v e c e r t a i n c a te g o r i e s t o s a y n o i f it i s t h is o r t h a t th a t is fi n e b u t a n y t h in g e ls e i f i t is g o in g t o g o o u t w i th m y s i g n a t u r e I m u s t s e e i t o t h e r w is e i t m u s t g o o u t w i t h s o m e o n e ’s s i g n a t u r e who had drafted it who knows about it. T h a t is w h a t I w o u l d e x p e c t . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s t h a t i s tr u e S ir. I t t h in k i n s o m e i n s t a n c e s I w o u l d a c t u a ll y d o t h a t w h e n ti m e p e r m i t s b u t i n o t h e r s y o u k n o w d e p e n d i n g a s I s a id i t d e p e n d s – i t d e p e n d s o n t h e s e r io u s n e s s o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r l e t t e r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: But why would you not – I understand you were s a y in g y o u h a d s e n i o r p e o p le , e x p e r i e n c e d p e o p l e s o w h y w o u l d y o u n o t l e t t h e m s i g n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t r e l a t e d t o m a tt e r s t h a t t h e y w e r e d e a li n g w i th ? P a r tic u la r ly w h e r e y o u h a d s e e n th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s o t h e y c a n t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty. N o b o d y c a n m e e t y o u a t – i n t o w n a n d s a y w h y d i d y o u s e n d m e s u c h a n o n s e n s ic a l le t t e r a n d y o u d o n o t k n o w about it. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir I t h i n k i n t h is p a r t ic u l a r c a s e s i n h in d s ig h t I th i n k w e a c t u a ll y n e v e r h a d a n y i s s u e w i t h t h e l e t te r s a n d a s I h a v e s a i d b e f o r e t h a t w h a t u s u a l ly h a p p e n e d 20 w a s t h e r e w a s a te m p l a t e t h a t e v e r y o n e w a s a c tu a lly g e t t in g u s e d t o i t y o u k n o w w h ic h h a d m y s ig n a t u r e a lr e a d y a t t a c h e d t o i t s o p e o p l e w o u ld w r it e w h a t e v e r th e y w a n t to w r i te … CHAIRPERSON: But that does not explain why you would not let them – y o u w o u ld n o t s a y t o t h e m i f y o u w r i te a l e t te r t o s o m e b o d y i n r e g a r d t o t h e b u s i n e s s o f th e o r g a n i s a t io n y o u p u t y o u r o w n s ig n a t u r e n o t m y Page 182 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 s ig n a tu r e u n l e s s I h a v e s e e n t h a t le t t e r. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a g r e e C h a ir I t h i n k i t w a s – i t w a s a fa u lt o n m y p a r t. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h l a n g u d o y o u a c c e p t th a t t h is l e t te r w a s f a ls e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. In t e r ms o f G r is s a g b e c a u s e y o u h a v e in tr o d u c e d G r is s a g i n y o u r e x p la n a ti o n a r o u n d th is d i d y o u h a v e 10 a n y d ir e c t i n te r a c t i o n s b e tw e e n M r Va n D e r M e r w e a n d B N P C a p i t a l ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D id a n y o n e t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e w i t h i n B N P C a p it a l h a v e a n y in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h Mr Va n D e r M e r w e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I t h i n k it is M r M o y o a t s o m e p o i n t . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u k n o w t h a t a s a f a c t o r d o y o u s u r m is e that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Yo u m e a n k n o w i n g i n t e r m s g o t t h e e x c h a n g e s o m e e m a i ls b e t w e e n th e tw o o f th e m . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D ir e c t ly b e t w e e n M r M o y o a n d M r Va n D e r Merwe? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A t s o m e p o i n t i t d id h a p p e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e I a m g o i n g t o p ic k u p o n th is t o p ic o f w h a t is s t a te d i n t h e le t t e r s t h a t b e a r y o u r n a m e b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e a g r e a t m a n y f a c ts a b o u t G r is s a g t h a t a r e p u t to S A A w h e n B N P C a p i t a l Page 183 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 is m o tiv a ti n g fo r a c a n c e ll a ti o n fe e , a r e y o u a w a r e o f th a t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And who was responsible for obtaining those f a c ts fr o m G r is s a g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It is Mr Mngadi. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w o u ld y o u r te a m c h e c k t h o s e f a c ts ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Okay let me – can I – can I just u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s t io n ? W h a t – w h e n y o u m e a n f a c t s i n t e r m s o f t h e fees or? 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m w h a t B N – w h a t G r i s s a g w a s d o i n g ? I w il l t a k e y o u t o a l l t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n d u e c o u r s e b u t t h e r e a r e l o ts o f le t t e r s u n d e r y o u r n a m e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t s a y G r is s a g is f ly i n g d ir e c to r s t o P a r is . T h a t s a y G r is s a g h a s g o t b r e a k a g e c o s ts . Th a t s a y G r is s a g is g o i n g t o p l a c e a p e n a l t y o f 5 m i ll io n U S d o ll a r s o n B N P C a p i ta l . I understand y o u r e v id e n c e to b e y o u h a d n o i n te r a c t i o n s w i t h Mr Va n D e r M e r w e , correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h e r e d i d t h o s e f a c t s t h a t a p p e a r in y o u r le t t e r s c o m e fr o m ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Mr Mngadi. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d h e s e n d t h e m t o y o u a n d t h e n y o u p u t t h e m in t h e le t t e r s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s r e m e m b e r a t t h e b e g i n n in g Page 184 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M r M n g a d i a c t u a ll y is t h e o n e t h a t h a d a n i n te r a c t io n w i t h G r i s s a g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . S o in o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w i t h h i m w a s t h a t h e u n d e r s ta n d s w h a t G r is s a g ’s n e e d s a r e g iv e n y o u k n o w b e c a u s e t h a t is t h e f u n c ti o n h e w a s a c t u a ll y d e a l in g w i t h . S o h e u n d e r s t a n d s w h a t S A A’s n e e d s a r e . S o h e w a s – th e r e w a s a g e n tl e m a n t h a t w o u ld a c t u a l ly a r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f I n li n e Tr a d i n g n o w to g o t o G r is s a g a n d s a y G r is s a g w h a t is i t t h a t y o u r e q u ir e a n d p r o v id e t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n t o u s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d id y o u c h e c k t h o s e f a c ts y o u r s e l f e v e r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : T h e e m a il t h a t h e s e n t th a t h e s a i d o k a y fi n e – b e c a u s e w h a t h e b a s i c a l ly d i d is h e w o u l d s e n d u s a d is c u s s io n t h a t h e h a d w i t h G r i s s a g a n d s a i d t h i s i s t h e d is c u s s i o n t h a t I h a d w i t h G r is s a g , G r i s s a g a c t u a l ly w a n t s t h i s . S o h e w o u ld a c t u a l ly y o u k n o w fo ll o w t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d h e g i v e y o u a s u m m a r y o f th e d is c u s s i o n o r d i d h e g iv e y o u t h e t e x t o f th e l e t te r t h a t h e w a n t e d y o u t o s e n d t o SAA? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h e te x t o f th e l e t te r. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . W h y d i d y o u n o t j u s t s a y t o h i m M r M n g a d i I k n o w n o n e o f t h e s e f a c ts . W h y d o y o u n o t j u s t w r i t e to S A A a n d m o t iv a t e o n t h is b a s i s f o r t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n f e e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A s f a r a s th e c a n c e l la t io n f e e I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r w e a c t u a l ly th e r e n o w s e e – I m e a n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l s h e is a s k i n g y o u a g e n e r a l q u e s t i o n b u t i t m ig h t Page 185 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s b e c a u s e i t i s i n te r li n k e d . CHAIRPERSON: R e l a te t o j a b u t b a s ic a l ly t h e q u e s ti o n is , y o u w e r e b e i n g g i v e n d r a f t l e t te r s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . CHAIRPERSON: By Mr Mngadi which if you sent out on – under your s ig n a tu r e w o u l d c o n v e y t o e i t h e r S A A o r w h o e v e r S A A t h a t y o u w e r e s a y in g t h e s e a r e t h e f a c t s a b o u t G r is s a g a n d y e t y o u d i d n o t k n o w t h a t t h o s e w e r e t h e f a c t s . Yo u j u s t h e a r d f r o m M r M n g a d i . S o th e q u e s t io n 10 is i f I u n d e r s ta n d c o r r e c tl y A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h e q u e s t io n i s , w h y d i d y o u n o t a s k M r M n g a d i t o s a y M n g a d i y o u a r e t h e o n e w h o k n o w – w h o k n o w s w h e th e r t h e s e f a c ts a r e tr u e w h y d o y o u n o t w r i t e u n d e r y o u r o w n n a m e t o S A A a n d t e l l them these facts? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C h a ir at th e beginning what I T h a n k y o u C h a ir. s a id was there Remember were a c tu a lly a r r a n g e m e n ts in p l a c e a s t o h o w w e c o m m u n ic a te t o t h e c li e n t. S o h i s r e s p o n s i b i li ty 20 was fo r him to a c t u a lly c o m m u n ic a te with us, c o m m u n ic a te w i th t h e c li e n t a n d c o m m u n i c a t e w i t h o t h e r p a r ti e s s o h e w a s a c t u a ll y d o i n g t h a t r o l e . S o w h e n h e a c t u a ll y in tr o d u c e d G r is s a g in t o th e e q u a ti o n s o w e h a v e n e v e r m e t G r is s a g y o u k n o w – w e h a v e never heard of Grissag so it is at that point in time when we said you k n o w th is G r i s s a g , G r is s a g e s p e c i a l ly a s f a r a s th is l e tt e r is c o n c e r n e d t h a t w a s s e n t i n it i a l ly. S o s e c o n d l y w h e n h e a c t u a ll y b r o u g h t t h e is s u e Page 186 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 o f th e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e b e c a u s e t h a t is s u e w a s b r o u g h t i m m e d i a te ly a ft e r t h e a w a r d o f t h e s o u r c i n g o f f u n d i n g le t t e r. S o o n t h a t l e t t e r h e b a s ic a lly s a i d t h i s is w h a t G r is s a g a c t u a lly w o u ld w a n t y e s a n d b a s ic a lly h e h a d a l l th e d e t a i ls b e c a u s e a ll th e d e t a i ls th a t h a v e b e e n a c t u a ll y t h a t b a s ic a l ly r e a d d e ta il in t h e m a i l i f w h e r e w e a r e s i tt i n g w e t h o u g h t t h i s i s G r is s a g , w h a t d i d G r is s a g w a n ts b e c a u s e h e i n tr o d u c e d t h e m . S o e v e n i f – y o u c a n s e e i t i n t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h e r e M r it is Va n D e r M e r w e w a s a c tu a l ly c o m m u n i c a t i n g d ir e c tl y w i t h h i m . So he w o u ld a c t u a ll y s e n d u s s o r t o f fo r w a r d u s in f o r m a ti o n f r o m P i e t h i ms e lf 10 I m e a n M r Va n D e r M e r w e h i ms e lf . S o w e h a d n o d o u b t in o u r m i n d s t o s a y t h is is e x a c tl y t h a t in f o r m a t io n th a t c o m e s fr o m G r is s a g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u I w i ll c o m e b a c k to th is p o in t i n d u e c o u r s e o n c e w e h a v e g o t th e fu ll s t o r y a b o u t t h e w a y i n w h ic h t h e s e i n t e r a c t io n s w e r e w o r k i n g b e t w e e n M r M n g a d i, y o u r s e l f a n d S A A . B u t b e f o r e w e d o t h a t I d o in f a ir n e s s to y o u w a n t t o g o i n t i m e fir s t t o t h e F S P li c e n c e s u s p e n s i o n o f B N P a n d t h e n f r o m t h e r e w e w i ll g o t o t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n f e e in m o r e d e ta il . S o i f w e p ic k u p th e F S P lic e n c e is s u e y o u w i ll fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 2 5 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hofmeyr we are about two, two and a half minutes 20 b e f o r e fo u r o ’ c l o c k . A t f o u r o ’c lo c k I th i n k w e w il l c o n t in u e a t le a s t u n t il fi v e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: W e w il l t a k e a b r e a k a t f o u r o ’c l o c k s o m a y b e w e should rather take it now but… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is a p p r o p r i a te n o w C h a ir. Page 187 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e I a m m o v i n g t o a n o th e r t o p ic . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u a r e m o v in g i n t o a n o t h e r … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e w il l ta k e a t e n m i n u t e b r e a k w e w ill r e s u m e a t t e n p a s t f o u r. W e a d j o u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES 10 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Let us proceed. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r M a h l a n g u w e a r e g o i n g t o p ic k u p th e to p ic o f t h e F S P l ic e n c e th a t w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w is o u r p r o g r e s s l o o k in g ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I a m c a u t i o u s l y o p t i m is ti c w e m i g h t j u s t m a k e it b y fi v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e d o n o t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n i t w i ll b e a s m a ll s e c t io n … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, j a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t o m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : But I am indebted to Mr Mahlangu for his a s s is t a n c e t h i s a f te r n o o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 188 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e a b l e – w e h a v e b e e n a b le t o i n c r e a s e t h e p a c e t o s o m e e x te n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr M a h la n g u o n t h e F S B lic e n c e is s u e I s a id w e w o u ld p i c k t h a t u p i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t a t p a g e 2 4 . T h a t i s w h e r e y o u h a v e a h e a d i n g E n g a g e m e n t w i th F S B a n d C a n c e ll a ti o n o f C o n tr a c ts a n d y o u r b u n d l e is D D 4 . H a v e y o u g o t p a g e 2 4 ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n if j u s t g o o v e r t h e p a g e fr o m th a t h e a d in g t o p a g e 2 5 a s I h a v e i t in th a t f ir s t p a r a g r a p h o n t h e p a g e y o u c o n c e d e t h a t h a v i n g a n F S P l ic e n c e w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t o f th e tr a n s a c ti o n a d v i s o r s e r v i c e s t e n d e r. Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t t h e t i m e t h a t B N P b id f o r t h a t t e n d e r d i d it h a v e a n F S P l ic e n c e ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s i t d i d . Th a t i s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. A t a p o in t t h e r e a f te r – a s I h a v e t h e fa c ts – B N P r e c e iv e d a n o tic e f r o m t h e F S B a s it t h e n w a s o f a n in t e n t io n t o s u s p e n d t h e li c e n c e . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t to a d d t h e f lo w o th e r w is e I c a n t a k e y o u t h e r e a r e y o u h a p p y t h a t th a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e c a m e t h r o u g h fr o m the FSB to BNP Capital on 23 March 2016? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e r e a f te r t h e r e w a s f u r t h e r c o m m u n i c a t io n Page 189 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 o n 1 2 M a y fr o m t h e F S B . W h a t d i d t h e F S B c o m m u n ic a t e to B N P C a p it a l o n 1 2 M a y ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C a n y o u g e t t o t h a t r e fe r e n c e b e c a u s e o n 1 2 M a y I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h c e r t a in ly. L e t m e a s s is t 2 3 M a r c h I h a v e y o u r e v i d e n c e to b e y o u g o t a l e t te r o f t h e F S B ’s i n t e n t io n t o s u s p e n d t h e lic e n c e . C o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d o n 1 2 M a y - w e w il l g o t o i t n o w – t h e F S B 10 a c t u a ll y suspended the l ic e n c e . Is that c o n s is te n t w it h your r e c o l l e c ti o n ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. N o w a s u s p e n s i o n o f a l ic e n c e is q u i te a s e r i o u s m a t t e r i n r e la t io n to th e s e r v i c e s r e q u ir e d f o r t h a t lic e n c e . A r e t h e y n o t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I could say yes as – however t h e s u s p e n s i o n c o m e s w i t h i ts te r ms a n d c o n d it i o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o r r e c t . L e t u s g o t o th e m b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h a t w i ll b e o f a s s i s t a n c e . Yo u w il l fi n d t h a t i n M s S ti m p e l’s b u n d l e w h ic h is 20 E X H I B I T D D 1 a n d l e t u s s t a r t a t p a g e 5 - 9 - 7 i f w e m a y. O h I m u s t t e l l y o u w h ic h o n e th a t is i n . Th a t is i n E X H I B I T D D 1 C - th e y a r e i n t h r e e parts - EXHIBIT DD1. I a m s o r r y. I am wrong there. I t is in B – a p o lo g i e s . CHAIRPERSON: What is the page number? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r w e a r e g o i n g t o b e g in a t 5 - 9 - 7 w h ic h is Page 190 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 u n d e r Ta b 6 3 . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 5-1 …? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 5 - 9 - 7 a n d i f y o u lo o k f o r Ta b 6 3 i t w i ll b e u n d e r that. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u h a v e i t Mr M a h l a n g u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m j u s t in f a ir n e s s t o y o u w a n ti n g t o t a k e y o u to the document. 10 T h i s is a n e m a il a s I h a v e i t d a t e d 2 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . Do you see that? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e s u b je c t o f t h a t e m a i l c o u l d y o u t e l l i t – t e ll u s w h a t t h a t i s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I n t e n t io n to S u s p e n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o p a g e 5 - 9 - 8 – w e w i ll n o t s p e n d l o n g o n i t b u t t h i s is t h e l e t t e r a s I h a v e i t f r o m t h e F S B t h a t in f o r m e d y o u in p a r a g r a p h 1 o f th e F S B ’s i n t e n ti o n to s u s p e n d B N P ’s li c e n c e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e h a d m o v e d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e t o th e a c t u a l s u s p e n s i o n b e c a u s e y o u s a i d th e r e a r e c e r t a i n te r ms a n d c o n d i ti o n s a tt a c h e d to t h a t s u s p e n s i o n . S o le t m e t a k e y o u t o t h a t . Yo u w i ll f in d t h a t i n i ts c o v e r i n g e m a i l a t p a g e 6 - 0 - 3 . It is a f e w p a g e s o n . W h a t is th e d a t e o f t h a t e m a i l a p p e a r i n g a t p a g e 6 - 0 - 3 ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: It is 12 May – 12 May 2016. Page 191 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d i t i s a d d r e s s e d t o w h o ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : D a n i e l ( i n d is ti n c t) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th a t i s y o u . C o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e s u b j e c t o f th a t e m a i l? C o u ld y o u r e a d t h a t fo r u s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Suspension. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u ; a n d th e n i f w e g o o v e r to t h e a c tu a l n o t ic e o f s u s p e n s i o n t h a t w a s a t t a c h e d t o th a t e m a il . 10 Yo u w i ll f in d i t c o m m e n c i n g a t p a g e 6 - 1 - 4 a n d I w o u l d lik e I j u s t t o g o t h r o u g h s o m e o f t h e a s p e c ts o f t h a t p a g e . C o u l d y o u r e a d fo r u s w h a t is r e c o r d e d b y the FSB at paragraph 1 on that page? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. “ N o t ic e o f i n t e n t io n t o s u s p e n d a u t h o r i s a t i o n o f t h e lic e n c e d a te d 1 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 r e f e r s . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i f y o u m o v e to – th a t I h a v e i t is a r e fe r e n c e to t h e p r e v io u s le t t e r th a t w e j u s t l o o k e d a t. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 3 o n t h a t p a g e . 20 W h a t d i d t h e F S B n o ti f y B N P C a p i ta l o f o n t h is d a t e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: “The l ic e n s e e is h e r e b y n o ti f ie d o f t h e d e c i s i o n o f th e R e g is t r a r o f Fi n a n c i a l S e r v ic e s P r o v i d e r s R e g is tr a r r e f e r r e d t o – t o s u s p e n d i ts lic e n c e to a c t a s a Fi n a n c i a l S e r v i c e P r o v i d e r i n t e r m s o f S e c t io n 9 ( 1 ) r e a d w i t h S e c t io n Page 192 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 9 ( 2 ) o f t h e Fi n a n c i a l A d v is o r In t e r m e d i a r y Se r v i c e s Act number 37 of the 2002 Act.” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n y o u r e fe r r e d t o th e c o n d i ti o n s a n d t e r m s a t ta c h e d t o t h a t s u s p e n s i o n . I w o u l d l ik e t o p ic k u p o n e o f t h o s e w h ic h i s i m p o r t a n t fo r o u r p u r p o s e s . Yo u w il l f in d th e fir s t a t t h e f o ll o w i n g p a g e – p a g e 6 - 1 - 5 u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g t h e r e o f C l a u s e 6 w h i c h r e a d s S u s p e n s i o n o f L ic e n c e . C a n y o u r e a d to u s w h a t is r e c o r d e d t h e r e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 “The l ic e n s e e ’s lic e n c e is h e r e b y s u s p e n d e d w it h i m m e d i a te e ff e c t based on th e f o l lo w in g grounds and reasons tendered above.” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t h a t p r o c e e d s a n d i t te ll s y o u a b o u t a p e r i o d o f s u s p e n s i o n a n d t h e n if y o u o v e r to p a g e 6 - 1 - 6 . I am in t e r e s te d i n t h e fir s t g e n e r a l t e r m a t ta c h e d t o t h e s u s p e n s i o n w h i c h y o u w i ll f i n d u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 6 . 2 o n th a t p a g e . C a n y o u r e a d fo r u s t h e fi r s t g e n e r a l t e r m o f t h a t s u s p e n s i o n ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : “ T h e li c e n c e … ” T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. 20 “ T h e lic e n s e e m u s t i n fo r m a ll a ff e c t e d c l ie n ts a n d p r o d u c ts s u p p li e r s c o n c e r n e d t h a t it s li c e n c e h a s been suspended.” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d – a n d R o m a n I I I u n d e r th o s e g e n e r a l t e r m s there. What does that record? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: “ T h e l ic e n s e e m u s t i n Page 193 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 c o n s u l t a ti o n w i t h th e c l ie n ts a n d p r o d u c ts s u p p l ie r s c o n c e r n e d t a k e r e a s o n a b l e s t e p s t o e n s u r e th a t a n y outstanding b u s in e s s is tr a n s fe r r e d to another a u t h o r i s e d F S P i n th e b e s t in t e r e s t o f t h e c li e n t s . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u d i d y o u a c t in a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h o s e r e q u ir e m e n t s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : As I h a v e i t fr o m y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u i n d ic a t e t h a t th e r e w a s a l e t t e r o f 1 3 M a y t h a t y o u s e n t t o S A A . I s t h a t c o r r e c t? 10 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l fi n d t h a t M r M a h l a n g u - j u s t f o r e a s e o f r e fe r e n c e - a t p a g e 2 7 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 6 . 5 o n t h a t p a g e . Yo u s a y t h e r e : “When the FSP was suspended s o m e ti m e in A p r il 2 0 1 6 I i n f o r m e d S A A o f t h e s u s p e n s i o n p e r le t t e r d a te d 13 May 2016 attached hereto as Annexure PDM21.” W e – w e c a n g o to t h a t in a m o m e n t b u t M r M a h l a n g u a r e y o u a w a r e o f M s N h a n t s i ’s e v id e n c e o n th is q u e s t io n ? 20 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I a m a w a r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u – a r e y o u a w a r e t h a t s h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t th a t l e t te r w a s n e v e r r e c e iv e d b y S A A ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s s h e d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e d o c u m e n t s h e t o o k u s t o o n t h e s e c o n d d a y o f h e r e v i d e n c e w h i c h i s a l e t te r – I p r o v id e d a Page 194 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 c o p y o f i t to y o u r a t t o r n e y s a f t e r t h a t s e s s i o n – w h e r e s h e w r i t e s t o y o u in J u l y 2 0 1 6 a n d s a y s : “ Yo u h a v e m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o a p r e v io u s le t te r t o u s in w h ic h y o u i n f o r m e d u s a b o u t t h e F S P l ic e n c e suspension but we do not have a record of it and w e c a ll o n y o u to p r o v id e i t t o u s . ” D o y o u r e m e m b e r th a t l e t te r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o r d s th a t s h o w t h a t y o u 10 s e n t t h i s l e tt e r o n 1 3 M a y to S A A ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir – w h e n I a c t u a ll y l o o k a t t h e l e t te r g iv e n th a t i t w a s d o n e i n 2 0 1 6 i n m y m in d – y o u k n o w – th e le t t e r w a s a c t u a l ly s e n t b u t t h e q u e s ti o n w e h a v e b e e n a c t u a ll y s tr u g g li n g w it h th e – w i th m y l a w y e r s to a c tu a lly to l o c a t e a s to a c t u a ll y w h o a c t u a ll y s e n t t h a t l e t t e r. W h o d id I g iv e t h e i n s tr u c ti o n t o a n d w e h a v e b e e n b a t tl in g to a c tu a l ly fi n d t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o t h a t e ffe c t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : cannot 20 fi n d Right. c o n fi r m a ti o n S o a s I h a v e it a s m a t t e r s s t a n d y o u of th a t r e c o l le c ti o n in any email c o m m u n ic a ti o n . Is t h a t r ig h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t – t h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w i t h t h a t le v e l o f c e r t a i n ty c a n y o u s a y i t was sent on 13 May? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I g u e s s w i t h th e h i g h p r o b a b il i ty b e c a u s e I t h i n k a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e w e d i d n o t h a v e a n y – y o u k n o w – Page 195 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 q u a l ms a b o u t – y o u k n o w – w e c o u ld n o t ju s t s p e c i fy a p a r ti c u la r d a te … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W i t h o u t a n y fo ll o w. S o I d o n o t k n o w a c t u a ll y w h a t tr a n s p i r e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t k n o w. S o y o u a r e n o t c e r ta in i t went on 13 May? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No I am – I am saying I am not sure what happened to … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . W h e th e r t h a t l e tt e r – w h e t h e r s h e r e c e i v e d i t o r n o t b u t fr o m h e r o w n s t a t e m e n t s h e d i d in d i c a t e th a t s h e h a s n o t r e c e i v e d i t . S o f r o m o u r s i d e w h e n b a s ic a ll y I e n g a g e d – w h e n I a c tu a l ly s e n t t h a t le t t e r a n d I e n g a g e d a t t h e o ff ic e a n d t h a t w a s l e t t e r i t w a s s e n t b u t b e c a u s e m y – m y d is c u s s i o n w i t h m y f o l lo w u p e m a il s w i t h h e r b a s ic a l ly w e r e s a y in g w e a c t u a l ly d id in f o r m y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s a b o u t t h i s p a r ti c u l a r e v e n t . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u a l e r t o r a n y o n e i n B N P ’s o ff ic e s a l e r t M r M n g a d i to th e s u s p e n s io n w h e n y o u r e c e iv e d i t o n t h e 11 t h – 12 May 2016? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: He should have known yes. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e s h o u ld h a v e o r d o y o u k n o w fo r a f a c t somebody told him? Page 196 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No I cannot - I cannot – yes I do n o t k n o w f o r a f a c t b u t it w a s s o r t o f p u b lic i n f o r m a ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n w h a t s e n s e w a s i t p u b li c o n t h e – in May 2016? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t h in k i t w a s in t h e n e w s i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l i t w a s s u b s e q u e n tl y i n t h e n e w s … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I a m n o t s u r e t h a t i n M a y 2 0 1 6 it w a s . I a m 10 ju s t tr y i n g t o g e t a s e n s e a n d I d o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t th is i s g o i n g b a c k some years. I understand your evidence to be you do not know as a f a c t t h a t s o m e b o d y t o l d Mr M n g a d i o n 1 2 M a y 2 0 1 6 t h a t B N P C a p i t a l ’s F S B l ic e n c e h a d b e e n s u s p e n d e d . Is th a t r ig h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t is y o u r s e n s e t h a t s o m e w h e r e in t h a t p e r i o d he came to learn of that fact? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I c a n n o t ta lk u n l e s s w e h a v e i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . So you are not aware of a n y o n e a t B N P a c tu a l ly t e l li n g h i m i n th a t p e r i o d ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. I w o u l d l ik e t o g o t o s o m e e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t h a p p e n e d b e tw e e n S A A a n d r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s o f B N P in c l u d i n g y o u r s e l f a r o u n d t h i s i s s u e i n J u ly a n d w e w il l fi n d th a t i n M s S ti m p e l’s e v id e n c e w h i c h is E X H I B I T D D 1 a n d I w o u l d li k e y o u to t a k e o u t F il e B f o r th a t p u r p o s e . Page 197 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: EXHIBIT DD1? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B . CHAIRPERSON: B. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir a n d i t is n e a r w h e r e w e w e r e p r e v i o u s ly. T h e p a g e I a m in t e r e s t e d i n i s p a g e 5 - 7 - 5 . It is u n d e r Ta b 62. M r M a h l a n g u ju s t i n t h e in t e r e s t o f t i m e w e h a v e b e e n t h r o u g h t h e s e e m a il s b e f o r e b u t t h e r e is a n e m a il i n th e s e c o n d h a l f o f t h a t p a g e f r o m M r M o y o d o y o u s e e t h a t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o i s t h a t e m a i l s e n t to ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ms P h u m e z a – s h e is t h e C F O – I m e a n – Ac t in g C F O t h e n o f S A A a n d U r s u l a Fi k e le p i w h ic h I t h i n k – I t h i n k th a t i s L e g a l R is k a n d C o m p l ia n c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : That is correct. Just for the record M s P h u m e z a is M s P h u m e z a N h a n t s i a n d w h o i s c o p ie d o n t h a t e m a il ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s D a n ie l – i t is m e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Right. S o w i ll y o u n o t r e a d th e t e x t o f t h a t e m a i l fo r u s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 “ W e c a n c o n fi r m t h a t t h e fu n d i n g e n t i ty h a s a n F S B li c e n c e a s a u th o r is e d u n d e r S o u th A fr ic a n L a w t o p r o v i d e th e s e fi n a n c i a l p r o d u c ts . S e e a t t a c h e d th e F S B l ic e n c e . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t i s t h e d a te o f th a t e m a i l? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I t i s 6 J u ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 6 ? Page 198 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s 2 0 1 6 . I a m s o r r y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ms Mahlangu were you s u r p r is e d to see M r M o y o w r i ti n g t h is o n 6 J u l y 2 0 1 6 w h e n y o u r li c e n c e h a d b e e n suspended in May? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I w a s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t d i d y o u d o a b o u t i t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I g u e s s a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e o n e , I w a s a c tu a lly in v o lv e d in a w h o l e lo t o f t h i n g s . Yo u k n o w w h e n I s a w t h is e m a i l o b v i o u s ly i n h i n d s ig h t t h i s w a s s o r t o f a n in c o r r e c t t h i n g t o 10 d o t o a c t u a ll y s e n d b e c a u s e h e th i n k h e w a s j u s t d o i n g a d m i n is tr a ti v e w o r k ju s t f o r w a r d i n g i n fo r m a ti o n t o S A A – a d m i n i s tr a t iv e i n f o r m a ti o n . S o i t – i t i n c l u d e d - t h a t in f o r m a t io n t h a t h e s e n t in c l u d e d o u r l ic e n c e a s w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n d i d y o u b e c o m e a w a r e o f th is e m a il ? W o u l d i t h a v e b e e n a r o u n d t h e ti m e i t w a s s e n t s o m e ti m e i n J u l y 2 0 1 6 o r – o r m u c h la t e r ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C h a ir w h e n – w h e n I a c t u a ll y s a w t h i s e m a il i t w a s d u r i n g t h e t i m e w h e n I w a s c o n s t a n t ly e n g a g in g w i t h F S B a n d – a n d I m e a n i t w a s a p u b lic – y o u k n o w – k n o w l e d g e t h a t 20 o u r F S B l ic e n c e w a s s u s p e n d e d . S o I c o u ld n o t – I c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d lik e h e w o u ld h a v e a c t u a l ly s e n t i t a n d i t i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t I a m t r y i n g to g e t i n te r ms o f ti m e fr a m e w o u ld it h a v e b e e n a r o u n d J u l y w o u l d i t h a v e b e e n A u g u s t o r m u c h l a te r ? I t was sent in … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I n – i n J u ly. Page 199 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 CHAIRPERSON: In J u ly a t t h e – o n 6 J u ly. S o I a m t r y in g to u n d e r s t a n d h o w s o o n a ft e r i t h a d b e e n s e n t y o u b e c a m e a w a r e o f i t more or less. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : S o m e t i m e i n J u ly y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e ti m e in J u ly ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u o n t h a t v e r y d a y d id y o u b e c o m e a w a r e o f i t b e c a u s e y o u w e r e c o p i e d o n th e e m a il ? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Our – hence I am saying – hence I am saying through you Chair that it was on – on my part o b v i o u s l y I w a s n o t – I s a w a n e m a il c o m in g th r o u g h b u t I d id n o t p a y a tt e n ti o n to i t b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is o u r li c e n c e w a s a lr e a d y e x p ir e d a n d w e a r e a c t u a l ly i n t h e p r o c e s s o f g e t t in g a n o t h e r F S P o n b o a r d to a c t u a ll y a s s i s t u s w i t h th is p a r t ic u la r e x e r c is e . S o I c o u l d n o t – I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y w h e n w e a c t u a l ly had another FSP … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , h a n g o n – h a n g o n . T h e q u e s ti o n is w h e th e r y o u b e c a m e a w a r e o f th e e m a i l o n th e s a m e d a y t h a t y o u w e r e c o p i e d ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s it m a y b e t h e fo ll o w i n g d a y w it h in t h e s a m e w e e k o r a ft e r t w o w e e k s o r m o r e o r l e s s h o w – h o w f a r fr o m t h e d a t e o f sending? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u – o r i t i s d i ffic u l t t o s a y ? Page 200 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s it is d i ff ic u l t t o s a y b e c a u s e I th in k a t th a t p o in t in ti m e I w a s r e a ll y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Under pressure. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex c e p t … MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: There were so many things h a p p e n in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : E x c e p t t h a t I – I th o u g h t y o u s a i d a f e w m i n u t e s – a minute or two ago that you saw the email coming but you did not pay 10 a tt e n ti o n t o i t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . W h a t – w h a t b a s ic a l ly I m e a n t w a s w h e n t h e e m a il b e c a u s e t h e e m a il h i ts m y – y o u k n o w – it c o m e s t h r o u g h t o m y a c c o u n t y e s b u t a t s o m e p o i n t in ti m e o n e d o e s n o t a c t u a l ly p a y a t te n ti o n t o th e e m a il s ti ll – ti ll y o u a r e a c t u a l ly a l e r t e d to it. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s t h a t m e a n t h a t y o u k n o w t h a t y o u s a w i t a r r iv e b u t y o u d i d n o t r e a d i t f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n a n d r e a d i t l a te r o r is t h e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u d i d n o t s e e i t a r r i v e b u t y o u d i d r e a d it m u c h la t e r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : N o – n o C h a ir. I t h in k w h e n t h e 20 e m a i l c a m e th r o u g h I d i d n o t s e e it t h e n o n th e s a m e d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I d i d n o t p a y a tt e n ti o n because … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I r e c e i v e s o m a n y e m a i ls o n t h e Page 201 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 d a y. S o – b u t a t th a t p o in t – h e n c e I a m s a y i n g i t c o u ld h a v e b e e n s o m e ti m e in – s o m e ti m e i n – i n J u ly w h e n I a c t u a ll y – w h e n I a c t u a ll y g o t h r o u g h m y d o c u m e n t a ti o n – y o u k n o w – th e n I – I c a m e a c r o s s it b u t a t t h e s a m e t i m e h e n c e I w a s s a y in g I w a s s u r p r is e d a s t o w h y w o u ld s o m e o n e s e n d s u c h a l ic e n c e w h e n it is – i t is a k n o w n f a c t t h a t o u r li c e n c e h a s b e e n s u s p e n d e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u m a y b e I c a n a s s is t y o u b e c a u s e t w o d a y s l a t e r y o u w r o te t o S o u th A f r i c a n Ai r w a y s a b o u t t h e F S P 10 lic e n c e is s u e . T h a t l e t te r y o u w i ll f in d t w o p a g e s b a c k i n th e fi l e i n fr o n t o f y o u – E X H I B I T D D 1 B a n d i t i s a t p a g e 5 - 7 - 3 . D o y o u s e e t h a t le t t e r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : It has got a handwritten 08/07/2016. Do you see that in the top right hand corner? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir M s N h a n ts i a s s is t e d u s in t h e e v id e n c e . T h a t d a t e i s c o n f ir m e d i n t h e e m a il s b e tw e e n h e r s e l f … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t S A A … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And Mr Mahlangu. Mr M a h la n g u I t a k e i t y o u d o n o t d i s p u t e t h a t is t h e d a t e o f t h i s l e tt e r. I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I c a n c o n f ir m it y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Page 202 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u c a n n o t c o n f ir m i t b u t y o u d o n o t d is p u t e i t . CHAIRPERSON: Was that date put in by Ms Nhantsi? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o p r e c i s e ly p u t t h a t i n i s n o t c l e a r … CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t M s N h a n ts i ’s l e tt e r s l a t e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d i c a t e t h a t t h is l e tt e r w a s r e c e iv e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h a t d a te ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fr o m B N P o n th e 8 t h … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f J u ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d M r M a h la n g u w h a t I a m i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e r e is w h a t y o u s a y t o M s N h a n t s i o n 8 J u ly 2 0 1 6 i n t h e f ir s t t w o li n e s . W i ll y o u r e a d th a t f o r u s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. “ I w o u ld l ik e to c l a r i f y th e is s u e o f t h e F S B li c e n c e . B N P C a p i t a l r e c e iv e d a l e t te r f r o m t h e F S B d a t e d 1 2 / 0 5 / 2 0 1 6 i n d ic a ti n g it s in t e n t io n t o t e m p o r a r i ly 20 s u s p e n d B N P C a p i ta l ’s l ic e n c e f o r a p e r i o d o f t h r e e m o n th s b a s e d o n t h e r e a s o n th a t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e FA I S A c t S e c ti o n 1 0 t h e ( i n d i s ti n c t) s u c c e s s f u l c o m p le t e t h e f ir s t l e v e l r e g u l a to r y e x a m i n a t io n s a p p lic a b l e to t h e c a te g o r i e s o r s u b c a te g o r i e s f o r w h ic h th e y a r e a u t h o r is e d o r a p p r o v e d . ” Page 203 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . D id y o u c o m p i le t h i s l e t t e r ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h y t h e n d i d y o u s t a te t h a t t h e l e tt e r f r o m t h e F S B o f 1 2 M a y in d ic a t e d i ts i n t e n ti o n t o te m p o r a r ily s u s p e n d B N P lic e n c e ? W h y d i d y o u n o t s a y t h a t t h e l e tt e r s u s p e n d e d B N P ’s l ic e n c e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I can see you – through you C h a ir – I t h i n k i t w a s w o r d i n g o n m y p a r t w h ic h I c a n s e e – I a g r e e w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g b u t I th in k i t w a s e v e n c o r r e c t to w r i t e i t t h e w a y I d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o b e c a u s e w e h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h th e e v i d e n c e 10 a lr e a d y. I n M a r c h y o u h a d b e e n t o l d a b o u t t h e in t e n t i o n t o s u s p e n d . C o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d b y M a y y o u w e r e to ld t h e lic e n c e h a d a c t u a ll y b e e n s u s p e n d e d w it h i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t . C o r r e c t ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t y o u c o n v e y e d t o S A A o n l y a n i n te n ti o n t o t e m p o r a r il y s u s p e n d t h e l ic e n c e a n d t h a t i s fa ls e . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t i s i n c o r r e c t . T h a t is – y e s I p u t i t i n c o r r e c t ly. I t w a s n o t a n i n te n ti o n t o m is l e a d a n y o n e . I t w a s 20 in c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll w h e r e in t h i s le t t e r d o y o u t e l l t h e m a b o u t t h e o t h e r F S P l ic e n s e e w h o y o u a r e g e t ti n g o n b o a r d t o t a k e o v e r t h e w o r k fr o m y o u ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Yo u m e a n in t h is p a r t ic u l a r le t t e r ? Page 204 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I think there has been some c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e tw e e n u s – I m e a n b e t w e e n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w h il e I w a s q u e s ti o n i n g M r M a h l a n g u I h a d a n i n d ic a ti o n fr o m h is l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e t h a t th e r e a r e s o m e d o c u m e n ts . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I h a v e n o t s e e n th o s e d o c u m e n ts . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t k n o w w h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t th e y s a y ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e y w a n t t o d o w i t h t h e m … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I s e e M r M a h la n g u in t e r a c ti n g w i t h h is l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I d o n o t k n o w w h a t is m o s t a p p r o p r i a t e b e c a u s e c e r t a i n l y I w o u l d li k e t o s e e t h o s e d o c u m e n ts … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e f o r e w e d e a l w i t h t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M a h l a n g u d o y o u b e li e v e th a t y o u r o r s o m e b o d y i n t h is r o o m h a s g o t th e d o c u m e n t th a t m ig h t h e l p y o u ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s I d o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e t h e y s h o u ld m a k e it a v a i la b le t o y o u … Page 205 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. CHAIRPERSON: And – and then you might – depending … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m ig h t b e a b l e – y o u m i g h t n e e d q u i t e a f e w minutes … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e a d i t o r y o u m i g h t b e a b l e t o q u ic k l y h a v e – h a v e a lo o k a n d b e a b l e t o p r o c e e d . I f w e n e e d t o t a k e a f iv e m i n u te s adjournment … 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n w e – w e c a n d o th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u p r e f e r t h a t w e r a th e r t a k e t h a t fi v e m i n u t e s a d j o u r n m e n t o r t h e y l e t y o u h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t a n d then you see whether you need more time. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld b e a b l e q u i t e q u ic k ly t o i d e n ti f y whether I have seen it before. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o m a y b e w e t a k e t h a t m o m e n t … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O r tw o … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I c a n c o m e b a c k a n d l e t y o u k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s d o t h a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 206 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t h i m g i v e i t t o y o u , ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r I c a n c o n fir m t h a t t h e fir s t o f th e s e in t h e pack is a document we have =seen before. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is t h e le t t e r o f 1 3 M a y a s I u n d e r s t a n d M r M a h l a n g u ’s e v i d e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 T h a t h e a ll e g e s w a s s e n t t h r o u g h b u t w h ic h S A A h a s n o t r e c o r d o f. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e o n e s a ft e r t h a t – if I r e a d t h e m q u i c k l y a n d lo c a t e t h e m in ti m e t h e y a r e n o w la t e r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n 8 J u ly … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 1 6 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I a m w o r k i n g q u ic k ly. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r m i n g t h a t v i e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I h a v e r e a d t h e m i n c o r r e c tl y t h e n I w o u ld lik e t o t a k e m o r e ti m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 207 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t i f t h a t is a l l t h a t w e h a v e i n th is p a c k … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a m h a p p y t o p r o c e e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e I h a v e c e r ta i n ly s e e n w h a t h a p p e n e d on 13 May … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I k n o w o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e la t e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w h e r e I a m fo c u s e d is 8 J u ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A t t h e m o m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u a r e y o u h a p p y t o p r o c e e d o n t h a t b a s is ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s y o u c a n p r o c e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e n it is n o t c l e a r t o m e y o u n e e d t h is p a c k r ig h t n o w b e c a u s e a ll t h a t w e a r e i n te r e s t e d i n c u r r e n tl y is w h a t h a s 20 h a p p e n e d u p u n t il 8 J u l y a n d y o u h a v e a v a i la b le t o y o u i n y o u r o w n s t a te m e n t th e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n s a y s w a s s e n t t o S A A o n 13 May … M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t is tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u h a v e i n fr o n t o f y o u r i g h t n o w t h e le t t e r o f 8 J u ly t h a t w e w e r e f o c u s s in g o n . Page 208 of 221 T h a t is t h e o n e in 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 M s S ti m p e l’s b u n d l e . C o r r e c t? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s th a t i s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : P l e a s e t e l l m e a t a n y p o i n t i f y o u w a n t t o m a k e r e fe r e n c e to t h e la t e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t is tr u e . I th i n k y o u s u b s e q u e n t ly a s k e d m e a q u e s t i o n … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: As to when did I inform SAA … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: About – remember just to go b a c k th e r e a r e s o m e o f t h e c o n d it i o n s o f th e s u s p e n s io n A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Because it said to us … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : W h a t – o n e is e n g a g e w i t h y o u r c li e n t a n d in f o r m t h e m … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H u h - u h . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : A n d t h e n s e c o n d ly i s if y o u h a v e 20 g o t a b u s i n e s s w h ic h p r o d u c ts o r - y o u k n o w – fi n a n c i a l ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : S u p p li e r s ? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Engage them. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t t e l l t h e m ? Page 209 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . N o e n g a g e w i th t h e lic e n c e F S P a n d m o v e t h o s e c l ie n ts F S P. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f Mr M a h la n g u if I m ig h t b e c le a r j u s t a b o u t m y q u e s t io n s o w e d o n o t l o s e e a c h o t h e r. I d i d n o t a c t u a l ly a s k w h e n y o u t o l d t h e m t h a t y o u h a d f o u n d a n o t h e r F S P li c e n s e e t o tr a n s f e r t h e business too. M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : Ye s . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s a i d l o o k i n g a t t h e l e t t e r o f 8 J u ly w h y i n th a t le t t e r d o y o u n o t t e l l th e m a b o u t a p a r tn e r t h a t h a s b e e n s e c u r e d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I th i n k p o s t t h a t l e t te r t h e r e h a d b e e n s u b s e q u e n t e n g a g e m e n t w i th S A A . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . B u t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s I ’ m in t e r e s t e d in n o t w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h e 8 t h o f J u ly, I ’ m in t e r e s te d in w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 8 t h o f J u ly in y o u r c o m m u n i c a t io n s w i t h S A A , a n d M r M a h l u n g u i n f a ir n e s s t o y o u l e t m e e x p l a in w h y, t h e 1 3 M a y l e t te r i s q u i te d i ff e r e n t 20 t o t h i s l e tt e r, t h e 1 3 M a y le t t e r d o e s w h a t y o u r s u s p e n s i o n r e q u ir e d y o u t o d o , y o u r e c a ll t h a t, y o u c a n g e t i t i n f r o n t o f y o u i f y o u w o u l d l ik e t o , it ’s a t p a g e 1 4 3 o f y o u r e x h i b i t w h i c h is D D 4 , b u t I’ m s u r e y o u w il l r e c a l l i n t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h o f th a t le t t e r, w h ic h S A A s a y s i t n e v e r r e c e i v e d y o u s a y t h e fo ll o w i n g : “ T h e c o n d i ti o n s o f s u s p e n s i o n r e q u ir e t h a t B N P w o r k w i t h Page 210 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 a n o t h e r a u t h o r is e d fi n a n c i a l s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r u n ti l i t h a s f u l fi ll e d a l l i ts s u s p e n s i o n c o n d i t io n s . A c c o r d i n g ly w e h a v e e n g a g e d C r e e d C a p i t a l P a r t n e r s o f w h ic h it s li c e n s e h a s b e e n a tt a c h e d . ” D o y o u r e c a l l t h a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : o k a y. Ye s I d o . R i g h t b u t S A A s a y s i t n e v e r g o t t h is l e t te r, T h e n e x t th in g t h a t h a p p e n s i n t i m e is o n t h e 6 t h o f J u l y y o u r e m p l o y e e , Mr M o y o , t e l ls S A A t h a t y o u h a v e a c u r r e n t v a li d F S P 10 lic e n s e , w e s a w t h a t e m a il , c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n t h e l e t t e r t h a t S A A s a y s i t d i d r e c e iv e , w h ic h is t h e o n e w e ’r e lo o k i n g a t d a te d t h e 8 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 6 y o u m a k e n o r e fe r e n c e t o h a v in g s e c u r e d a n o th e r p a r t n e r t o t a k e o v e r t h e b u s i n e s s , a n d y o u a ls o i n c o r r e c t ly r e p r e s e n t t h a t t h e li c e n s e h a s m e r e ly b e e n – th e r e ’s a n i n t e n t io n to s u s p e n d i t , a n d d o n o t s a y i t h a s been suspended, and so I must put it to you th a t t h a t i s a m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f t h e fa c t s o n t h e 8 t h o f J u l y, a n d I m u s t q u e r y fr o m y o u w h y y o u d i d n o t t e ll t h e m a b o u t t h e s e r v i c e s b e in g m o v e d t o 20 a n o t h e r F S P li c e n s e e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, i f y o u l o o k a t t h e l e t te r s th a t a r e b e fo r e y o u , th a t h a v e b e e n f o r w a r d e d to y o u t h e r e ’s a d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n m e , t h e l e tt e r th a t w a s s e n t t o M s N h a n ts i a b o u t t h e n e w F S P t h a t w e h a v e a c tu a l ly s e c u r e d , s o I a g r e e w i th y o u t h a t o n t h e 6 t h o f J u l y w h e n m y e m p lo y e e m a d e a m is t a k e , w h ic h w a s Page 211 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 g r a v e ly s o r t o f i n c o r r e c t t o a c t u a l ly s a y y o u r lic e n s e a c t u a ll y h a s b e e n a c ti v e w h e n . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : It is s ti ll v a li d . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : Ye s w h e n i t w a s p u b l ic k n o w l e d g e , I t h i n k , I ’ m n o t s u r e , I th i n k i t w a s j u s t , I d o n ’ t k n o w I c a n ’ t e x p l a i n it , i t’s j u s t – i t ’s a b i g m is t a k e , b u t t h e r e w a s n o i n t e n t io n o f m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n b e c a u s e I m e a n w e ’v e n e v e r d o n e th a t , w e d o n ’ t h a v e a h i s t o r y o f g o i n g to o u r c li e n t s a n d m is r e p r e s e n t o u r s e lv e s , o r a n y f a c ts f o r t h a t r e a s o n , s o h e n c e i f y o u c h e c k th e s e c o n d e m a il w h i c h 10 w a s s e n t t o M s N h a n ts i t h a t y o u ’v e g o t w e d i d in d i c a t e to h e r t o s a y w e ’v e a c t u a ll y s e n t a n e m a i l w i th C r e e d i n fo r m a t i o n , w i t h t h e li c e n s e , t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a n d a c tu a lly t o th e C E O , t h a t is w h y I w a s s a y i n g t o t h e C E O o f – y e s t o s a y th is i s a n e w a c t u a ll y s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t h a t w e ’v e g o t o n b o a r d to a s s is t u s w i t h t h is p a r t ic u l a r e x e r c is e , s o w e d id d o t h a t , w e d id d o th a t . S o i t ’s n o t lik e w e a c t u a l ly w e ’r e j u s t h o p i n g t h a t y o u k n o w t h i s t h i n g t h e is s u e s i t ’s g o in g t o g o a w a y, w e d i d a c t u a ll y a c t iv e ly e n g a g e o n i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr Mahlungu do you accept that if you had m a d e t h e s u s p e n s io n o f y o u r l ic e n s e k n o w n t o S A A o n t h e 1 3 t h o f M a y 20 y o u c o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a w a r d e d t h e e x t e n s i o n o f t h e c o n tr a c t t o s o u r c e th e fu n d s fo r S A A . M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : I c a n ’ t s a y y e s to t h a t , b e c a u s e in m y v i e w I t h i n k I d i d a c tu a lly m e n ti o n i t i n o u r s t a te m e n t to s a y w h a t a c t u a ll y p u t s u s i n a v e r y d i ff ic u l t s p o t e v e n w i t h o u r li c e n s e b e c a u s e o u r l ic e n s e w a s a p r i v a t e e q u i ty li c e n s e a n d w h e n S A A r e q u e s t e d a Page 212 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 lic e n s e e v e n th e F S B t h e m s e lv e s , i f t h e y s a y t o u s m o v e p r o d u c ts , w e d o n ’t h a v e p r o d u c ts , w e d o n ’ t h a v e a n y t h i n g s o a s f a r a s F S B is c o n c e r n e d th e y a r e th in k i n g a s f a r a s B N P C a p i ta l i s c o n c e r n e d h e ’s g o t a c t u a l ly p e o p l e ’s m o n e y a n d t h a t t h e y n e e d t o m o v e , m o v e , m o v e a l l t h e s e l li n g p r o d u c ts t h a t t h e y a c tu a l l y g e t a n a u t h o r i s e d s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r to a c t u a ll y l o o k a f t e r t h o s e p r o d u c ts . A s f a r a s S A A i s c o n c e r n e d o n th e o t h e r p a r t b e c a u s e c a p i ta l r a i s i n g d o e s n ’ t a c t u a ll y r e q u i r e a n F S B l ic e n s e , u n f o r t u n a t e ly i t i s a r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t w e n e e d to f u l f il a n d w e a c t u a ll y m a k e a tt e m p t s t o t h a t 10 t o s a y l e t’s f u l fi l t h i s u n u s u a l c o n d i t io n a s fa r a s t h i s e x e r c is e i s c o n c e r n e d b u t w h e n y o u g o t s u s p e n d e d th e n i t p u t u s i n a v e r y p r e c a r i o u s c o n d it i o n s b e c a u s e y o u g e t s u s p e n d e d a n d s o m e o n e s a y s t o y o u m o v e th e f u n d s t h a t y o u h a v e i n t o a n o th e r F S C b u t y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t h e f u n d , a n d th e s e r v i c e t h a t y o u ’r e a c t u a l ly p r o v id in g t o S A A i t ’s n o t r e g u la t e d s e r v ic e s , s o w e f i n d o u r s e l v e s i n th a t p o s i ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l u n g u y o u a c c e p te d in y o u r e v i d e n c e p r e v i o u s ly t h a t a n F S P li c e n s e w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e t r a n s a c t io n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s t e n d e r e d , c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 I s a i d i t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s , b u t i t – tr a n s a c ti o n a l a d v is o r y d o e s n ’ t n e e d a n F S B li c e n s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t ’s a s e p a r a t e m a t te r, y o u a c c e p t t h a t i t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e te n d e r. MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I agree. Page 213 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u c o u ld n ’ t h a v e b e e n a w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r if y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e o n e , c o r r e c t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I agree. Yo u r a p p o i n t m e n t t o s o u r c e fu n d s fr o m S A A w a s a n e x t e n s i o n o f t h e s c o p e o f th a t p r e v i o u s tr a n s a c ti o n a d v is o r s e r v ic e s r o l e , a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: S o r r y, t h e – a s f a r a s t h e s o u r c in g o f f u n d s w a s c o n c e r n e d w e a c t u a ll y d id a p r o p o s a l , y e s , t o S A A , t o s a y S A A t h i s is o u r p r o p o s a l , a n d i n my v i e w . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n Mr M a h l a n g u t h e q u e s t i o n is d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i t w a s a n e x t e n s i o n o f t h e s c o p e t h a t y o u h a d o r ig i n a ll y, y o u w e r e o r i g in a l ly g o i n g t o d o fo r S A A . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Te c h n ic a lly y e s . I f it w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t fo r y o u r o r i g in a l a p p o i n t m e n t t h a t y o u n e e d e d a n F S P li c e n s e w h a t is y o u r c o m m e n t o n m y p r o p o s i t io n t h a t i t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r a n y e x te n s i o n of those services as well? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H LA N G U : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, I th in k y o u p a r t ly w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g i s t h e tr u t h b e c a u s e it b e c o m e s a n e x te n s i o n , 20 I t h i n k y o u a c t u a ll y e v a l u a t in g o n t h e b a s i s o f i n fo r m a ti o n th a t y o u s u b m i tt e d i n i ti a lly b u t a s f a r a s t h a t a s p e c t o f c a p i ta l r a is in g i s c o n c e r n e d i t d o e s n ’t r e q u ir e a li c e n s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t b u t M s N h a n ts i’s e v i d e n c e , ju s t s o t h a t y o u h a v e th e b e n e fi t o f i t a n d y o u c a n a n s w e r w i th a n y c o m m e n t y o u m a y h a v e , w a s th a t i t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n r e g u l a r f o r Page 214 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 S A A t o h a v e a w a r d e d y o u th e e x te n s io n o f th e s c o p e if t h e y h a d k n o w n a n y p o i n t p r i o r t o t h a t t h a t y o u r F S P li c e n s e w a s s u s p e n d e d , y o u a r e a w a r e th a t th a t w a s h e r e v i d e n c e ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s I a m a w a r e , t h a n k y o u . But your evidence as I have it is your r e c o l l e c ti o n i s t h a t t h e y g o t t h a t n o ti c e o n t h e 1 3 t h o f M a y b u t y o u c a n fi n d n o d o c u m e n t a r y p r o o f o f t h a t is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 Thank you. T h a t ’s tr u e . M r M a h l a n g u I p r o p o s e th a t w e t h e n m o v e t o t h e n e x t t o p i c a n d w e m a y e v e n b e a b l e t o c o m p le t e it b e f o r e fi v e o ’c lo c k w h i c h w il l l e a v e o n ly o n e o r t w o m a t t e r s f o r tomorrow morning. T h i s r e l a te s to t h e fe e o n t h e s o u r i n g o f f u n d s o f 1 .5 % , a n d I h a v e i t fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e p r e v i o u s ly th a t y o u h a d n o e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h G r i s s a g d ir e c tly o r M r v a n d e r M e r w e is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I a l s o u n d e r s ta n d y o u n o t t o h a v e a tt e n d e d th e m e e ti n g o n th e 8 t h o f J u n e w h e r e t h a t t e r m s h e e t w a s s ig n e d a t S A A is that correct? M R D A N I E L P H O L I S A N I M A H L A N G U : T h a t ’s tr u e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e a n y d i r e c t d e a li n g s w i t h G r is s a g , is t h a t r ig h t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . W e r e y o u t h e n a w a r e t h a t t h e t e r m s h e e t th a t w a s s i g n e d , if th a t tr a n s a c ti o n h a d g o n e t h r o u g h , w a s g o i n g t o e a r n B N P C a p i t a l a n o t h e r R 7 5 m il li o n ? Page 215 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I’m not sure which aspect of it y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y i n th e t e r m s h e e t t h a t w a s s i g n e d o n th e 8 t h o f J u n e t h e r e w a s a 1 % f e e th a t w a s g o in g t o b e p a id t o G r i s s a g in it i a l ly o n a n y d r a w d o w n o n t h e f a c il i ty a n d t h e n M r v a n d e r M e r w e ’s e v i d e n c e w a s t h e a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n B N P C a p it a l a n d G r i s s a g w a s t h a t y o u w o u l d e a c h s h a r e t h a t 1 % i n e q u a l p o r t i o n s , h a l f /h a l f, a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h o s e n e g o ti a ti o n s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 10 T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir, w h e n a t e r m s h e e t g e ts d r a f te d I r e m e m b e r w e r e c e i v e d t w o te r m s h e e t s , a n d o n e te r m s h e e t b a s ic a l ly w a s a n i n d i c a t i v e t e r m s h e e t a s f a r a s t h e t e r m s a n d c o n d i ti o n s w e r e c o n c e r n e d a n d o n e te r m s h e e t a s f a r a s t h e c o m m i t m e n t f e e w h i c h i s – w a s c o n c e r n e d w a s a c t u a l ly 1 % a n d i t w a s e r r o n e o u s l y p u t b e t w e e n u s , w h i c h i s B n P C a p it a l a n d G r is s a g a n d t h e n t h a t t e r m s h e e t w a s a m e n d e d , y e s , t o a c t u a ll y b e s e n t to th e C F O a n d w h e n i t w a s s e n t to t h e C F O h e s a i d t h i s is a m e n d e d t e r m s h e e t a n d a ls o a l l th e r a t e s a c tu a lly h a v e b e e n p r o o f e d b e c a u s e e v e n t h e f ir s t o n e t h a t w a s s e n t i f y o u l o o k a t , if y o u c h e c k o n t h e m a r g in s w e r e a l l s i t ti n g a t f o u r, 4 % , e v e n th e fix e d r a t e s w a s f o u r a n d th e n a m e n d e d o n e , 20 a m e n d e d te r m s h e e t w a s s i tt i n g a t 3 . 5 a n d a ls o t h e m a r g i n w a s 3 . 5 a n d w e r e m o v e d o u r s e lv e s t h e r e b e c a u s e w e ’ r e n o t a fi n a n c i a l i n s t it u ti o n a n d G r i s s a g is . T h e y a r e t h e o n e s t h a t a r e e n ti tl e d t o t h a t c o m m i t m e n t fee. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , t h a t ’s v e r y h e l p fu l . J u s t s o t h a t w e c a n l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u k n o w q u i t e w e ll a n d w e c a n h a v e t h e Page 216 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 b e n e fi t o f i t , y o u w i ll fi n d i t i n M s S t i m p e l’s b u n d l e , w h ic h is E X H I B I T D D 1 , t h a t’s t h e b i g o n e w e ’v e b e e n w o r k i n g o n fo r s o m e ti m e a n d y o u w i ll fi n d t h e r e u n d e r t a b 5 4 w h ic h is a t p a g e 5 3 2 . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o r r y C h a ir, n u m b e r ? A p o l o g i e s , s o i t ’s u n d e r t a b 5 4 a n d i ts p a g e 5 3 2 . T h is a s I h a v e it is w h a t y o u w e r e r e fe r r i n g to i n y o u r t e s t i m o n y u n d e r th e s e c t io n p r ic i n g , i s t h a t r i g h t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u j u s t t o g iv e y o u t h e b e n e f i t , t h is i s 10 t h e t e r m s h e e t th a t w a s s i g n e d o n th e 8 t h o f J u n e , t h a t h a s b e e n c o n fir m e d b y M s N h a n ts i i n h e r e v i d e n c e a n d i f w e g o t o t h e s e c ti o n o n p r i c i n g th a t ’s t h e – i t r e f le c ts a s i n te r e s t r a te 3 . 5 % a n d m a r g i n 3 .5 % , i s t h a t w h a t y o u ’r e r e f e r r i n g t o ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s tr u e . And right at the bottom of that section on p r i c i n g i t s a y s “ o th e r f e e s : , a n d t h e r e i t r e fl e c ts a 1 % f e e w il l b e p a y a b le b y S A A t o G r is s a g A G o n e a c h d r a w d o w n a m o u n t r e c e iv e d , y o u s e e t h a t? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 Ye s , th a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d id I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e c o r r e c tl y t o b e t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s th a t B n P C a p it a l w o u l d n o t r e c e iv e a n y portion of that 1% fee? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t ’s tr u e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t d o y o u b a s e t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n o n ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir a s I h a v e Page 217 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 in d i c a t e d i n m y e x p e r i e n c e , i n th e fu n d r a is i n g e x p e r i e n c e s p a c e , o n ly f u n d e r s c h a r g e a c o m m i t m e n t fe e a n d f o r o b v i o u s r e a s o n s , i t ’s b e c a u s e t h e y c h a r g e , t h a t c o m m i t m e n t f e e i s a fe e t h a t t h e y c h a r g e f o r t h e m t o a c t u a ll y c o m m i t t o t h a t p a r t ic u l a r f u n d s t h a t a r e s e t a s id e f o r w h a t e v e r c li e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o c a n I b e c l e a r, y o u r e v i d e n c e o n t h i s is n o t b a s e d o n a n y a c tu a l in t e r a c t io n w i t h M r v a n d e r M e r w e o r M r M n g a d i? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: M y i n t e r a c ti o n w i th t h i s I r e c e i v e d tw o o f th e s e a n d w h e n I a c t u a l ly w e n t t h r o u g h it I a c t u a l ly 10 q u e r ie d i t t o s a y w h y a r e w e a c t u a l ly in c l u d e d h e r e , a n d t h e n i t w e n t t h e r e b e c a u s e o u r, a s f a r a s w e a r e c o n c e r n e d w e a r e j u s t a d v i s o r s a n d then we get a success fee, not a commitm ent fee, we are not part of the funding. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h l a n g u I h a v e n ’ t s e e n th a t o t h e r v e r s io n , it w o u ld b e u s e fu l i f y o u c o u ld m a k e t h a t a v a i la b le to t h e C o m m i s s i o n , b u t w e c a n s ti ll a s k a f e w f o ll o w - u p q u e s t io n s . Mr v a n d e r M e r w e ’s e v i d e n c e w a s th a t t h e r e w a s a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n B n P C a p it a l a n d G r is s a g t h a t t h i s 1 % w o u l d b e s h a r e d b e t w e e n t h e t w o p a r ti e s , i s y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t t h a t w a s n o t a g r e e d b e tw e e n th e p a r t i e s ? 20 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: N o , w e h a v e n ’ t a g r e e d o n th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d y o u k n o w w h e t h e r Mr M n g a d i h a d s t r u c k t h a t d e a l w it h G r is s a g ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t is p o s s ib l e t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a r r a n g e m e n t o n t h e s id e b e t w e e n G r is s a g a n d M r M n g a d i th a t th a t 1 % w o u l d b e Page 218 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 s h a r e d in e q u a l p r o p o r t io n s ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: I w o u ld n ’t c o m m e n t o n i t, I w o u ld n ’t k n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t ’s p o s s i b l e , y o u d o n ’ t k n o w t h a t th a t d id n ’t happen? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Please would you if possible Thank you. o v e r n i g h t p r o v i d e u s w i t h t h a t o t h e r v e r s i o n w h i c h y o u s a y y o u q u e r ie d s o th a t th e 1 % w o u l d n o w r e f le c t o n ly b e i n g p a y a b l e to G r is s a g A G ? 10 MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s I w il l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C h a i r w e a r e q u i t e c l o s e b u t t h e r e a r e j u s t o n e o r tw o a s p e c t s th a t I c a n c o n c lu d e o n th is a n d t h e n w e w il l s t a r t a n e w t o p ic in t h e m o r n in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u e v e n i f y o u w e r e n ’ t s t a n d in g t o b e n e fi t fr o m t h e h a l f o f t h e h a l f p e r c e n t w h ic h w e c a lc u l a t e d t o b e 7 5 m i ll io n t h e fe e s t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o e a r n in r e l a ti o n t o t h e s o u r c in g o f f u n d s w e r e i n t h e o r d e r o f R 2 5 6 m il li o n , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld n ’t k n o w. W e ll y o u w e r e a w a r d e d t h e s o u r c i n g o f f u n d s w o r k o n th e b a s is t h a t y o u w o u l d c h a r g e a 1 . 5 % f e e o n R 1 5 b il li o n , correct? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: T h a t’s i n c o r r e c t , i f y o u c a n s e e o n c o m m u n ic a ti o n s b e tw e e n u s a n d M s N h a n ts i y e s , t h a t f e e w a s a c t u a ll y 1 . 2 5 , h o w e v e r i t w a s b a s e d o n c a p i ta l r a is e d , n o t n e c e s s a r i ly Page 219 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 t h e e n t ir e R 1 5 b il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t ’s i n t e r e s t in g t o m e b e c a u s e S A A d e c id e d t o a w a r d th is t o y o u o n t h e b a s is t h a t i t w o u ld c o s t S A A R 2 5 6 m il li o n , are you aware of that? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : No I am not aware. S o fr o m y o u r v a n ta g e p o i n t t h e r e w a s n o a g r e e d R 2 5 6 m i ll io n a t a ll ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s th r o u g h y o u C h a ir I t h i n k fr o m w h e r e I’ m s t a n d i n g I h a d n o a g r e e m e n t w i t h S A A , n o t h i n g w a s 10 s ig n e d , n o th i n g w a s a g r e e d u p o n , n e v e r r e c e iv e d a l e t te r t o s a y y o u ’v e s e n t u s t h is p r o p o s a l , w e a g r e e o n t h i s p r o p o s a l , n o th in g w h a t s o e v e r w a s a c t u a ll y s e n t to u s , s o a s fa r a s I ’ m c o n c e r n e d w e a c tu a lly r a n th is e x e r c is e w i th o u t a n y a g r e e m e n t in p la c e , y e s , s o I w o u ld n ’ t k n o w, s o w e w e r e a c t u a l ly m a k in g p r o p o s a l s , h e n c e I a m s a y i n g y o u ’r e t a lk in g a b o u t 1 .5 b u t e v e n t u a ll y t h e fe e w e n t t o 1 . 2 5 , y e s , b u t s t il l S A A d i d n ’ t c o m e b a c k t o u s a b o u t w h e th e r t h a t 1 . 2 5 i s f e a s i b le o r i t m a k e s s e n s e , w h a t e v e r th e c a s e is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r M a h la n g u f o r y o u r b e n e f i t t h a t is c e r ta in ly c o n s i s te n t w i t h t h e l e t t e r o f a w a r d t h a t y o u g o t , b e c a u s e t h e l e tt e r o f 20 a w a r d th a t y o u g o t d id n ’ t s p e c if y a f e e d i d it ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s d e f in i te ly. It just said you’ve been awarded to source f u n d s fo r S A A , a n d th e n i t s p o k e a b o u t o t h e r t e r m s a n d c o n d i t io n s th a t w o u ld b e a g r e e d th e r e a ft e r, w a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g a s w e ll ? MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: Ye s . Page 220 of 221 27 JUNE 2019 – DAY 122 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. Chair that concludes this aspect, w e a r e a b o u t t w o m i n u te s b e fo r e fi v e b u t I a m m o v i n g to a n e w t o p i c , s o i f w e c o u l d d o t h a t in t h e m o r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d y o u t h i n k w e m i g h t n e e d w h a t – a n o th e r 3 0 minutes? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u ld t h i n k s o C h a ir s o p o s s ib ly s t a r ti n g h a l f p a s t n in e w o u l d b e a d e q u a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s t h i n k in g t h e n if w e w i ll n e e d m o r e o r l e s s t h i r t y m i n u t e s m a y b e w e m a y a s w e l l s t a r t a t t e n a n d t o tr y a n d fi n i s h t h e 10 w i t n e s s fo r t o m o r r o w w e c o u l d g o in t o th e e v e n i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , i n d e e d , w e ’ v e g o t n o d i ffic u lt y w it h th a t a n d I h a v e c o n fir m e d w i th t h e w i t n e s s f o r t o m o r r o w t h a t h e h a s a v a i la b ili t y i n t h e e v e n i n g CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, o k a y n o t h a t ’s fi n e , w e w ill a d j o u r n Mr M a h l a n g u a n d w e w il l s ta r t a t te n o ’ c l o c k t o m o r r o w s o c o m e b a c k t o m o r r o w a t te n . MR DANIEL PHOLISANI MAHLANGU: CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. W e w il l a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y a n d w e w il l s ta r t a t t e n t o m o r r o w. W e a d jo u r n . 20 I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 8 J U N E 2 0 1 9 Page 221 of 221