C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

26 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 7 1

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 26 SEPT EMB ER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r P e te r s e n , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
ADV ROB PET ERSEN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y I h a v e h a d t h e o p p o r tu n i t y o f r e a d i n g t h e

r e p ly i n g a ff i d a v i t . D o y o u w a n t t o j u s t d e a l w i t h t h e r e p ly i n g a ffi d a v i t a
bit Mr Petersen?
ADV ROB PETERSEN:
10

Ye s c e r t a i n l y C h a ir.

I do not know what you

e n v is a g e f o r t h is h e a r i n g . I a n tic i p a t e d t h a t i t m i g h t b e i m p o r t a n t t o –
s in c e t h is i s b e i n g b r o a d c a s t a n d i t is a p u b li c s e s s i o n t h a t th o s e
lis t e n i n g t o a n d o b s e r v i n g t h is h e a r i n g s h o u ld k n o w a l i t tl e b i t m o r e
a b o u t w h a t i t e n t a i ls .

S o I a m r e a d y s u b je c t t o y o u r d ir e c ti o n s t o g o

t h r o u g h t h e e s s e n c e o f t h e s u b m is s i o n s t h a t I w a n t t o m a k e t o d e a l w i th
t h e o p p o s in g a ffi d a v i t a n d to d e a l w i th t h e r e p ly i n g a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t m i n d i f y o u w a n t t o ta k e f iv e m i n u t e s s a y i n g
w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y a n d in t h e p r o c e s s a d d r e s s w h a te v e r y o u m i g h t
w i s h to a d d r e s s o n t h e r e p l y i n g a ffi d a v i t. L e t m e s a y t h i s i m m e d i a t e ly
s o th a t a ls o Mr M a d o n s e la c a n k n o w w h a t is g o i n g o n in m y m in d s o
20

t h a t w h e n h e is – r is e s h e k n o w s w h a t t o a d d r e s s .

S u b j e c t to

s o m e t h i n g t h a t I m u s t j u s t c h e c k in t h e r e p ly i n g a ffi d a v i t a n d t h a t is
w h y I w a n t y o u t o j u s t d e a l w it h t h e r e p l y in g a ff i d a v i t . S u b j e c t to t h a t
a n d m e f i n d in g t h a t t h e r e is n o p r o b le m i n t e r m s o f w h a t I a m t h in k i n g I
a m in c l in e d to g r a n t s o m e o r d e r.

T h e N o tic e o f M o ti o n th a t i s – h a s

b e e n p u t u p m ig h t n o t r e fl e c t w h a t I h a v e i n m i n d b u t I a m i n c l i n e d t o

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
g r a n t s o m e o r d e r to a l lo w t h is w i tn e s s t o g iv e e v id e n c e w it h o u t a n y r is k
o f h is c o v e r b e in g b l o w n a s h e p u t s i t .

E x a c tly w h a t t h e t e r m s w o u l d

b e w e c a n l o o k a t t h a t b u t in p r i n c i p le I a m i n c li n e d to t h a t . O b v i o u s ly
t h a t is s u b j e c t t o a r g u m e n t th a t m a y b e a d d r e s s e d t o m e .

I remain

o p e n b u t w h e n I w a s i n p r a c ti c e I a l w a y s f o u n d t h a t i t w a s v e r y h e l p fu l
if th e j u d g e i n d i c a t e s w h a t h e i s th i n k i n g r a th e r t h a n y o u a d d r e s s i n g a ll
k in d s o f i s s u e s a n d y o u a r e a d d r e s s i n g i s s u e s t h a t t h e j u d g e r e a l ly h a s
n o i n te r e s t i n .

S o – s o I g iv e y o u fi v e m i n u t e s t o a d d r e s s m e o n

w h a t e v e r y o u w a n t t o a d d r e s s m e o n a n d – b u t i n th e p r o c e s s d e a l w i th
10

– t e ll m e m o r e a b o u t w h a t y o u h a v e t o s a y a b o u t t h e r e p ly i n g a ff id a v i t .
Yo u w il l r e m e m b e r t h a t l a s t t i m e I d i d s a y t h a t t h e M i n is t e r ’s p o i n t in
h is o p p o s in g a ff i d a v i t t h a t t h i s w it n e s s h a s g i v e n e v i d e n c e i n a
d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir y w i t h o u t d o in g s o i n c a m e r a w a s a p o i n t t h a t n e e d e d
a r e s p o n s e . I t l o o k s l ik e t h e r e p ly in g a ff id a v i t d o e s d e a l w i t h t h a t b u t I
read it once and I just need to have to a look but as you address me I
w i ll l is t e n b u t t h a t is th e i n c li n a ti o n . O k a y ?
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: So I other words I – I do not want us to take too long
o n t h i s m a t t e r. W e h a v e o r a l e v id e n c e – I h a v e o r a l e v i d e n c e t o li s te n

20

t o s o – b u t I w il l b e fa ir to b o t h p a r t i e s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : C h a ir a s y o u a r e a w a r e I h a v e p r e p a r e d a n d p u t
b e f o r e y o u a d r a f t o r d e r a r o u n d w h ic h m y s u b m i s s i o n s w il l b e b a s e d
a n d th e t e r m s o f th a t d i ffe r i n i m p o r t a n t p a r t ic u l a r s fr o m th e p r a y e r s
s o r t i n th e N o t ic e o f M o ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s e p a r a t e d r a f t o r d e r b e c a u s e I h a v e n o t s e e n a s e p a r a t e d r a f t o r d e r.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

I t is i n t h e b u n d l e – i t is i n t h e b u n d l e K K 1 . 4

a n d i t is th e fir s t i te m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e N o tic e o f A p p l ic a ti o n ?
ADV ROB PET ERSEN:

N o th is i s t h e d r a f t o r d e r …

CHAIRPERSON: Where does it appear?
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

I t a p p e a r s i n E x h ib it K K 1 . 4 t h a t is t h e b u n d le

marked 1.4.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d i t is i t e m 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

A n d th a t w a s d r a f te d w i th t h e h o p e o f s a v i n g

ti m e a n d a ll o w i n g m e to fo c u s m y s u b m i s s i o n s w i t h o u t a s y o u s a y g o i n g
o ff i n a ll d ir e c t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m j u s t l o o k i n g a t t h e t e r m s o f t h e d r a ft o r d e r. I h a d
n o t s e e n i t b e fo r e .

I think on the face of it most of the – the order

a p p e a r s t o p r e s e n t m e w it h n o p r o b l e m s u b j e c t t o w h a t M r M a d o n s e l a
m i g h t h a v e t o s a y a n d s u b j e c t t o h e a r in g a r g u m e n t .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h a t b e i n g s o C h a i r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I p r o p o s e t h e n t o c o n c e n tr a te i f I m a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

O n th e g r o u n d s o f o b je c t i o n w h ic h h a v e b e e n

raised.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: And the response to those.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d t h a t m a y l e a v e li t tl e o r n o t h i n g n e c e s s a r y
t o s a y i n r e p ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A t t h is s t a g e h o w e v e r I d o n o t k n o w w h a t th e
s u b m is s io n s w ill b e t h a t M r B a lo y i .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PETER SEN:
10

May wish to make on behalf of General

Mphego.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I g u e s s y o u …
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d I m a y n e e d to d e a l w it h t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll y o u c a n d o is a d d r e s s th o s e p o in ts th a t h e m a k e s
fr o m t h e o p p o s in g a ffi d a v i t .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

I have – may I proceed?

Four grounds of

o p p o s it i o n to a n i n c a m e r a h e a r in g h a v e b e e n a d v a n c e d b y G e n e r a l
Cele.
1 . T h e f ir s t i n p a r a g r a p h s 7 t o 1 3 o f h is a ff id a v i t – s h a ll I g iv e y o u

20

t h e b u n d l e r e fe r e n c e a s I g o ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k y o u m a y g iv e m e th e b u n d l e r e fe r e n c e s b u t i f
y o u – w e ll i f y o u g i v e m e th e h e a d i n g o f t h e o b j e c t io n o r t h e – i n a v e r y
…
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : C r is p p o i n t t o s a y t h i s is t h e o n e o b j e c ti o n , t h i s is t h e
– a n o t h e r o n e , th is i s a n o t h e r o n e th e n y o u a d d r e s s t h e m e a c h .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s c e r ta i n ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t w i ll d o e v e n i f y o u d o n o t r e f e r t o t h e – t o t h e

bundles.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d I h a v e p r e p a r e d s u b m is s i o n s o n t h e b a s i s
t h a t th e y s h o u l d b e c o n c i s e a s p o s s ib l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d a t t h e s a m e ti m e n o t le a v e a n y l o o s e e n d s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: But…
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A g a i n I w i ll b e g u i d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : B y w h a t y o u w a n t t o h e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ROB PETER SEN:

A n d t h e fir s t o b je c t io n is t h a t C o lo n e l N a i d o o

w h il e u n d e r w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n h a s p r e v io u s l y te s ti fi e d a n d I q u o t e “ In
t h e o p e n ” d u r in g a S A P S d is c ip li n a r y h e a r in g i n to th e c o n d u c t o f M a jo r
20

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h e ld fr o m 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 3 .
I n r e s p o n s e C o l o n e l N a i d o o h a s s t a t e d t h a t in f a c t q u o t e
“ t h o s e p r o c e e d in g s w e r e n o t o p e n t o t h e p u b li c a n d w e r e o n l y a t t e n d e d
b y t h e p a r t ic i p a n t s i n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s a n d l e g a l t e a m s t o g e t h e r w i t h a
n u m b e r o f p e r s o n s fr o m w i t n e s s p r o te c t i o n ” .
T h e r i s k o f e x p o s i n g h is n e w i d e n t it y a n d lo c a t io n u n d e r

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w i t n e s s p r o te c ti o n w a s i n th a t c o n te x t I s u b m i t m in i m a l . Q u i t e d i ff e r e n t
a r e t h e p r o c e e d i n g s o f t h is c o m m i s s i o n w h ic h is I w o u l d h a p p i ly
d e v e l o p if t h e r e w e r e m o r e ti m e . T h e s e p r o c e e d in g s a r e r e q u ir e d t o b e
h e l d i n p u b l ic u n l e s s t h e r e is r e a s o n f o r th e C h a ir p e r s o n in h is
d is c r e ti o n t o o r d e r o t h e r w i s e
T h e r is k o f e x p o s i n g C o l o n e l N a i d o o i n t h i s c o n te x t is
q u a li t a t iv e q u i t e d i ff e r e n t a n d I s u b m i t h a s to b e t a k e n v e r y s e r io u s ly
in d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I w il l t e ll w h a t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th e – o f C o l o n e l

N a i d o o ’s c o n c e r n is a n d y o u m u s t ju s t t e ll m e if th a t is y o u r
u n d e r s t a n d in g to o .
M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g a n d h a v i n g r e g a r d t o th e o p p o s i n g a ff i d a v i t
a n d t h e r e p l y i n g a ff i d a v i t .

My u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t b o t h C o l o n e l

N a i d o o a n d t h e M i n is t e r – o h – le t m e p u t t h is w a y. I a m in c l in e d t o
t h i n k b o th C o lo n e l N a id o o a n d th e M in is t e r k n o w e a c h o t h e r o r a t le a s t
h a v e m e t . B u t t h e y m ig h t n o t h a v e m e t . E v e n if t h e y m i g h t n o t h a v e
m e t i t s e e m s t o m e th a t th e – t h e Mi n is te r s k n o w s w h o C o lo n e l N a i d o o
is . T h a t is t h e o n e p o i n t .
B u t a ls o i t i s q u i t e c le a r fr o m t h e o p p o s i n g a ffi d a v it a n d t h e
20

r e p ly i n g a ff id a v i t th a t m a n y i f n o t a ll t h e p e r s o n s i m p l ic a te d b y C o l o n e l
N a i d o o k n o w w h o C o l o n e l N a id o o i s . A n d N a i d o o k n o w s t h a t t h e y k n o w
him.
T h e r e f o r e fr o m th a t p o i n t o f v i e w C o l o n e l N a id o o c a n n o t b e
a s k in g fo r a n o r d e r t h a t w o u l d c o n c e a l h is – w h o h e is to t h e i m p l ic a t e d
persons.

B u t h is c o n c e r n i t s e e m s to m e is t h a t th e p u b l ic a n d o t h e r

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
p e o p l e o t h e r t h a n t h o s e w h o a r e i m p l ic a te d w h o h e k n o w s k n o w h i m t h e
p u b lic a n d o th e r p e o p l e s h o u ld n o t k n o w w h o h e is .
T h a t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f h is c o n c e r n . S o – s o th a t is w h y
h e t a l k s a b o u t – th a t i s w h y h e s a y s h e d o e s n o t w a n t h is c o v e r t o b e
blown.

A n d i f h e h a s g iv e n e v id e n c e i n a d is c i p l in a r y in q u i r y w h e n

t h o s e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s w e r e t h e r e t h e y k n o w – t h e y k n o w w h o h e is .
B u t a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t h is c o n c e r n is I d o n o t w a n t th e p u b lic t o
k n o w – t o c o n n e c t th e f a c e t o C o l o n e l N a i d o o .
want.
10

T h a t is w h a t I d o n o t

Th a t is w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d h is c a s e to b e .

Because if that

h a p p e n s th e n – t h e n th e p u b lic o r c e r ta i n p e o p l e w h o k n o w w h e r e I liv e
w i ll t h e n c o n n e c t t h e fa c e t h a t th e y k n o w b y a d i ff e r e n t n a m e t o C o lo n e l
Naidoo.

A n d s a y – o h t h i s is C o lo n e l N a i d o o a n d h e d o e s n o t w a n t

b e c a u s e o f w h a t it w ill e n ta il f o r h i m .
B u t h e a ls o s a y s i f t h a t h a p p e n s n a m e ly h is c o v e r is b l o w n
i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n i t w i ll n o t b e d i ffic u lt f o r th e i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s t o
fi n d o u t w h e r e h e l iv e s n o w a n d th a t w o u l d p u t h is li f e i n d a n g e r.
S o i f I a m c o r r e c t in t h a t a n a ly s is i t s e e m s to m e th a t a s f a r a s
i m p l ic a t e d – t h e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s a r e c o n c e r n e d h e k n o w s t h a t t h e y
k n o w h i m – th e y k n o w w h o – t h e y k n o w t h e f a c e o f th e C o lo n e l N a id o o
20

t h a t w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t b u t h e d o e s n o t w a n t th e m t o k n o w w h e r e h e
liv e s b e c a u s e t h a t m i g h t p u t h i m i n d a n g e r.
B u t a s f a r a s t h e p u b l ic is c o n c e r n e d h e s a y s t h e y d o n o t k n o w
t h a t C o l o n e l N a i d o o p a r ti c u l a r l y w h e r e h e n o w liv e s t h e y d o n o t k n o w
t h a t C o l o n e l N a i d o o is th e p e r s o n t h a t t h e y k n o w b y a n o t h e r n a m e a n d
h e d o e s n o t w a n t t h a t t o h a p p e n b e c a u s e i f h i s fa c e is s h o w n o r i f

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n e w s p a p e r is r i g h t a n d s h o w h is p ic t u r e a n d s o o n t h e n t h o s e p e o p l e
w i ll t h e n s a y o h t h i s p e r s o n r e fe r r e d t o a s C o lo n e l N a id o o is a c t u a ll y
t h e p e r s o n w e k n o w b y th is o t h e r n a m e a n d t h a t w o u l d b lo w h i s c o v e r.
S o i s m y a n a ly s is – d o e s m y a n a ly s i s a c c o r d w i t h y o u r
a n a ly s is ?
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

C h a i r w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d c a p t u r e s th e

e s s e n ti a l o b j e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : O f t h is a p p l ic a ti o n a s I h a v e e v a l u a t e d i t .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d o n t h e b a s i s o f w h i c h m y s u b m is s i o n s w e r e
p r e p a r e d a n d t h e d r a f t o r d e r w a s p r e p a r e d i n s u b s ta n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I w o u l d n o t w a n t t o g o s o fa r a s to s a y th a t a ll
t h e a n d t h e r e a r e n o f e w e r th a n 4 5 p e o p l e t o w h o m R u l e 3 . 3 N o tic e s
w e r e is s u e d . I w o u l d n o t w a n t to g o s o f a r a s to s a y …
CHAIRPERSON: All of them…
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: That all of them have seen him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .

20

ADV ROB PETERSEN:

A n d t h e r e f o r e I c a n n o t q u a n t i fy i n m y

s u b m is s io n s t o y o u w h a t t h e r is k m a y b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : O f a d d i t io n a l p e r s o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: Coming to see him.

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

A n d a s fa r a s t h e M in is t e r o f P o l ic e i s

c o n c e r n e d fi r s t I w a n t to j u s t e m p h a s is e t h a t t h i s a p p l ic a ti o n is n o t
a b o u t t h e M i n is t e r o f P o l ic e . I t is a b o u t t h e p r o t e c ti o n o f t h e w it n e s s .
A n d o n e h a s t o t a k e i n to a c c o u n t t h e n u m b e r o f i m p li c a t e d p e o p le . B y
i m p l ic a t e d p e o p l e i f I m a y j u s t c l a r i fy ? I t m e a n s p e o p l e w h o a r e o r m a y
b e i m p l ic a te d b y th e e v i d e n c e o f th e w i t n e s s .
I d o n o t d r a w t h e c o n c l u s i o n fr o m t h e p a p e r s t h a t t h e M in is t e r
w h o w a s C o m m i s s io n e r o f P o lic e h a s e v e r s e t e y e s o n C o lo n e l N a i d o o .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O n M r … Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : O r v is a v e r s a .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is possible. Ja.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

A n d h e h i m s e l f e m p h a s is e s i n h i s r e p ly th a t

n o w h e r e d o e s h e s a y i n h is e v id e n c e th a t h e s a w th e G e n e r a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o h e m ig h t n o t h a v e m e t h i m .
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is – t h a t is p o s s i b le . J a .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : B u t t o th e e x te n t t h a t th e – o n e i s d e a li n g h e r e
w i t h a n a s s e s s m e n t o f r is k .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: Of exposure.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
ADV ROB PETERSEN:
program.

I n c o n n e c t io n w i t h t h e w i t n e s s p r o te c ti o n

T h e r e w o u l d b e v e r y l it t le a d d i ti o n a l r is k i f t h e M i n is t e r o f

P o lic e w e r e t o s e e w h e t h e r it is h is f a c e o r a p h o t o g r a p h s o h e i s g o i n g

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
– oh no I do not know him or yes I do.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : B u t t h a t is n o t e s s e n t ia l to t h e e v id e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

And I must emphasise that the – if one goes

t h r o u g h t h e r e i s n o t ti m e b u t I w o u l d h a p p ily t a k e y o u t h r o u g h t h e R u l e
3 .3 N o t ic e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : In r e la t io n to t h e M i n is t e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h a t t h e r e is n o d i r e c t e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: Where Colonel Naidoo says I saw or …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I d ir e c tly o v e r h e a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d t h a t – th a t r a t h e r c h a n g e s t h e s i t u a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PETER SEN:

20

S o – b u t t o c o n fi r m th a t t h e – t h e e s s e n c e o f

t h e p r o b l e m i s t h e o n e t h a t y o u C h a ir h a v e a r tic u la t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : B u t t h e r e is a d u a l p u r p o s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : In t h e – th is a p p lic a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

A n d i n t h e fo r m u l a ti o n o f th e p r o p o s e d d r a f t

o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PETER SEN:

W h ic h i s t o m a i n t a i n a n d p r o te c t th e p u b li c ’s

r ig h t to in f o r m a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.;
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d t h e m e d ia ’s r o le .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : In f a c ili t a ti n g t h e c o n s ti t u t i o n a l g u a r a n t e e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : O f f r e e d o m o f e x p r e s s io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : W h ic h in c l u d e s fr e e d o m o f i n f o r m a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d fr e e d o m o f th e m e d i a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

S o o n e is – o n e h a s t o a d d r e s s t h e p r a c t ic a l

d i ff ic u l ti e s o f c o n d u c ti n g a h e a r in g w h e r e th e p u b l ic h a v e t h e a c c e s s
w h ic h th e y o u g h t r i g h tly t o h a v e .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

A n d w h e r e t h e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s n o n e o f

w h o m h a v e a s y e t – t h e y s t il l m a y – n o n e o f w h o m h a v e a s y e t t a k e n
s t e p s i n te r m s o f R u l e 3 . 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : To m a k e a s t a te m e n t c h a ll e n g in g t h e c o n t e n t o f

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
t h e e v id e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PETER SEN:

A n d a p p ly in g t o c r o s s - e x a m in e .

Th a t m a y

happen.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : H m . H m .
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

B u t i t is t o t h e e x t e n t th a t o n e i s t h i n k in g

h y p o t h e t ic a l ly o f w h a t m a y h a p p e n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : It is d i ff ic u l t to s e e h o w o n e w o u l d m a n a g e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h e c o m b i n a t io n o f a l lo w in g t h e p u b lic to – to
o b s e r v e t h e p r o c e e d in g s a n d h a v e th e p o t e n t i a l ly t h e 4 5 i m p lic a t e d
p e o p l e in a n o th e r r o o m w i t h C o l o n e l N a id o o .

So I would therefore

p e r s i s t in o r d e r t o a c h i e v e t h e a p p r o p r i a t e b a l a n c e b e tw e e n w i t n e s s
p r o t e c t io n a n d t h e p r o te c t i o n w h i c h n o t o n ly d o e s t h e p o l ic y o f t h e
c o n s ti t u ti o n b u t I h a v e n o d o u b t t h e p o l ic y o f th e c o m m is s i o n is
d e t e r m i n e d to e n s u r e t h a t i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s h a v e a f a ir o p p o r t u n i ty to
c h a l le n g e e v id e n c e w h ic h is a d v e r s e t o th e m
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

N o , n o t h a t i s – t h a t is fi n e .

Yo u d i d s a y

s o m e t h i n g t h a t g o e s t o a q u e s ti o n n o w I w a s g o i n g t o r a is e n a m e ly t o
t h e e x t e n t t h a t a n i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n m i g h t w is h t o s e e t h e f a c e o f
C o l o n e l N a i d o o w h e r e v e r h e w i ll b e t e s t i fy in g fr o m is t h e r e d i ff ic u l ty
with that?

W e ll th e r e – t h e – t h e r e s h o u l d n o t b e a d i ff ic u l ty w i t h

r e g a r d t o t h o s e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s t h a t C o lo n e l N a i d o o a ls o k n o w s t h e y
k n o w h i m I w o u l d i m a g i n e . B u t I d o n o t k n o w w it h r e g a r d to t h o s e t h a t

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
m i g h t n o t k n o w h i m . B u t a r e y o u a b l e to s a y a n y th i n g a b o u t t h a t?
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

Ye s .

Ye s I w o u l d s u g g e s t th a t th e r e a r e t w o

a s p e c ts t o t h is w h ic h i t w o u l d b e h e lp f u l t o d is t in g u i s h . O n e is s e e i n g
h is f a c e f o r th e p u r p o s e o f r e c o g n is i n g t h a t th is i s t h e p e r s o n .

The

o th e r w o u l d b e o b s e r v in g h i m d u r in g h is e v i d e n c e w h e r e t h e a r g u m e n t
is p u t fo r w a r d t h a t d e m e a n o u r is fu n d a m e n ta lly i m p o r t a n t to fa ir n e s s . I
d o w a n t t o m a k e a s h o r t s u b m i s s io n o n t h a t – th a t a s p e c t o r o n b o t h
a s p e c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , J a .
10

A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : O n th e f ir s t o n e I w o u ld i m a g in e a n d o n e h a s to
u s e i m a g i n a t io n h e r e .

I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t i t c o u ld d e p e n d u p o n t h e

i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n c o n c e r n e d a n s w e r in g t h e q u e s t io n t o y o u – h a s h e o r
she set eyes on Colonel Naidoo before?

If the answer to that is yes

t h e n i t s e e m s t o m e th e r e c o u l d b e n o s e r i o u s s e c u r i ty p r o b l e m i n
a l lo w in g t h a t i m a g e to b e r e fr e s h e d . I f t h e a n s w e r is n o t th e n t h e n e x t
q u e s t io n w o u ld b e – w h y d o y o u n e e d i t n o w ? A n d i t o c c u r s t o m e th a t
you may if you are …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l th e – t h e o n e w h o – is t h e p o s it i o n t h a t t h e o n e
w h o d o e s n o t k n o w h i m m i g h t b e th e o n e w h o m ig h t h a v e a s tr o n g e r
20

r e a s o n t o w a n t to s e e h i m . B e c a u s e h e m a y s a y I s e e th is p e r s o n t h a t I
d o n o t k n o w m a k e s a ll k i n d s o f a ll e g a t i o n s a g a i n s t m e b u t I a c tu a lly
h a v e n o i d e a w h o th is p e r s o n is a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h o th is C o lo n e l
N a i d o o i s . B u t i f I w e r e to s e e t o h is f a c e I m i g h t r e c o g n i s e h i m . - O h
t h is is – t h is t h e p e r s o n I d i d n o t k n o w h is n a m e is C o lo n e l N a i d o o a n d
t h e n I a m in a b e tt e r p o s i t io n t o a n s w e r t h e a l le g a ti o n s b e c a u s e n o w I

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
can – I know the person – I can connect the person.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

M y s u b m is s i o n i n r e s p o n s e to t h a t w o u l d b e

t h a t th a t – t h a t c o n c e i v a b ly is a p r a c ti c a l n e c e s s i ty t h a t c o u l d a r is e a n d
t h a t i s w h y I s u g g e s t a n d I h a v e g o t a n o t h e r s u g g e s t i o n t o a t ta c h t o
that.

W h y I s u g g e s t t h a t t h e q u e s ti o n s h o u l d b e a n s w e r e d w h a t i s i t

t h a t m a k e s it n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u to s e e h i m n o w ? B e c a u s e i n p r e p a r i n g
e v e n i f t h e r e s p o n s e u n d e r R u l e 3 .4 h a s n o t y e t b e e n fi n a li s e d a n d
d e li v e r e d i n t h e c o u r s e o f p r e p a r i n g s u c h a r e s p o n s e th a t i m p li c a t e d
p e r s o n c o u l d s u r e ly b e e x p e c te d t o a r t ic u la t e w h a t i t i s i n th e c o n te n t
10

o f th e i m p l ic a ti n g e v i d e n c e . A l l o f w h ic h h a s b e e n p r o v id e d in t h e R u l e
3 .3 N o ti c e s .

W h a t is i t a b o u t t h e c o n t e n t w h i c h I h a v e d i ff ic u l ty

r e s p o n d i n g to b e c a u s e I h a v e n o t s e e n C o lo n e l N a i d o o ? A n d s o i t m a y
b e t h a t y o u w o u l d b e d is p o s e d if y o u a r e i n c li n e d t o f o l lo w t h e d r a f t
o r d e r i n m o s t r e s p e c ts .

If you look at – at paragraph 2 of the draft

o r d e r w h i c h a l lo w s f o r a v a r i a t i o n b u t th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s t h a t a r e
m e n ti o n e d t h e r e a r e p e r h a p s to o n a r r o w.

T h e y d e a l w i th i f i n y o u r

opinion

v a r ia t io n

Chair

c ir c u m s ta n c e s

warrant

a

to

ensure

the

p r o t e c t io n o f N a i d o o o r a n y o t h e r p e r s o n i n c o n n e c ti o n w i t h N a i d o o ’s
evidence.
20

B u t t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h i c h h a v e ju s t b e e n h y p o t h e s iz e d

c o u l d p r o v id e a n o th e r g r o u n d f o r a p a r ti c u la r a n d a d - h o c v a r i a ti o n
w h ic h c o u l d b e c a te r e d fo r b y r e w o r d i n g o f tw o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e t h e v a r ia t io n p a r t s h o u l d b e fo r m u l a t e d i n s u c h
a w a y t h a t it s a y s I m a y v a r y t h e o r d e r - v a r y o r a m e n d t h e o r d e r i n
s u c h w a y a s I m a y c o n s i d e r n e c e s s a r y.

In such was as I may deem

n e c e s s a r y a n d I a m s a y in g n e c e s s a r y i n th e c o n t e x t …

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f n e c e s s a r y i n b a la n c i n g t h e v a r io u s in t e r e s ts . Th e
in t e r e s ts f o r th e p r o t e c t io n o f t h e w i tn e s s a n d t h e in t e r e s t o f tr y i n g t o
li m i t a n y in fr in g e m e n t o f o r in t e r f e r e n c e w it h a n i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n ’s
r ig h t i n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r t o t h e a b s o l u te m in i m u m .

So that - that

k in d o f b a l a n c e t h a t is w h a t I a m h a v in g i n m i n d …
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: But …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t m a y b e t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: May I suggest - may I suggest …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r m u l a ti o n m i g h t b e - m ig h t b e o k a y a s w e l l .
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: I would - I would propose that …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN:

A s m u c h a s p o s s i b l e o f th e d e t a il o f t h e

wording …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN:

Of two - paragraph two should be retained

b e c a u s e th e r e is th e p r o t e c ti o n o f N a i d o o o r a n y o t h e r p e r s o n in
c o n n e c t io n w i t h h i s e v i d e n c e . I - I a m n o t s u r e w h a t i s g o i n g t o c o m e
out.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : It m a y n e e d s o m e s p e c i a l o r d e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h a t is w i d e .
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: Or to ensure fairness …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : To i m p l ic a te d - to a n y i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ja.

T h a t - t h a t i s t h e k in d o f th i n g .

So - so

w h a t i t w o u ld m e a n is th a t i f I g r a n t t h i s o r d e r t h e n a t a n y s t a g e - a t
a n y s ta g e i n t h e f u t u r e w h i le C o l o n e l N a id o o is g iv in g e v i d e n c e o r if h e
- if I grant leave to - for somebody to cross-examine him in the future I
c a n m e r o m o t u o r o n a p p l ic a t i o n b y a n i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n a m e n d i t
w h e r e I c o n s i d e r t h a t i t is n e c e s s a r y to d o s o fo r p u r p o s e s o f f a ir n e s s
t o a ll c o n c e r n e d .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h a t - t h a t is m y s u b m i s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a . O k a y, a l r i g h t .
10

A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : N o w th e - th e o th e r a s p e c t w a s d e m e a n o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l I m u s t ju s t s a y - t e ll y o u t h a t I a m o n m y
2 3 r d y e a r a s a J u d g e a n d I c a n n o t r e c a ll o n e t i m e w h e n I d e c id e d a n y
c a s e o n t h e b a s is o f d e m e a n o u r. T h a t is - th a t i s w h a t I c a n te ll y o u . I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r - m a y b e th e r e is o n e o r t w o b u t I h a v e n o r e c o ll e c t io n
in a ll t h e s e 2 3 y e a r s - 2 2 a n d a h a l f y e a r s - o f h a v in g d e c i d e d a c a s e
w i t h a n y - w i th - o n t h e b a s is o f p l a c i n g a h i g h - h i g h e r r e g a r d o n
d e m e a n o u r.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN:

C h a ir p e r s o n m a y I j u s t a d d o n e p o i n t to t h a t.

W i th a l l d u e r e s p e c t a n d w i t h n o s i m il a r e x p e r i e n c e s o w h a t e v e r I a m
20

le s s c o n f id e n t t h a t d e m e a n o u r i s n e v e r a f a c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll - w e l l I h a v e - I h a v e n o d o u b t t h a t i n - I h a v e n o
d o u b t t h a t th e r e a r e - t h e r e a r e m a y b e s o m e Pr e s i d i n g O ff ic e r s m a y b e I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r I s h o u ld s a y m a y b e m o r e i n t h e lo w e r c o u r ts th a n

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t h e H i g h C o u r ts b u t m a y b e e v e r y w h e r e b u t I k n o w a ls o o f a n u m b e r o f
J u d g e s w h o - w h o w o u l d s p e a k i n t h e s a m e w a y.
Is t o s a y d e m e a n o u r y o u k n o w i s s u c h a - a d i ffi c u l t th i n g
p a r t ic u l a r ly i n o u r m u l ti c u l tu r a l - m u l t ir a c i a l s o c i e ty y o u k n o w. I t is - it
is n o t a …
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l o t o f u s o r s o m e o f u s d o n o t f in d i t e a s y to r e ly o n
t h a t - o n th a t .

U s u a ll y th e r e is m o r e th a n e n o u g h in t e r m s o f

p r o b a b i li ti e s t o d e c i d e a c a s e .
10

A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : To b e f a i r t o th e M i n is t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : H e w a s d e a l in g w i t h a n o t ic e o f a p p lic a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN:

W h i c h a s k e d fo r t h e w i t n e s s ’ v o ic e t o b e

d is t o r t e d a s w e l l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : As h i s f a c e to b e c o n c e a le d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : In t h e d r a f t o r d e r …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Yo u w o u ld h a v e s e e n t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I a m n o t p e r s is t in g w i t h t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : In d e e d .

Page 18 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I - I t h i n k t h a t th a t is u n n e c e s s a r y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : To t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t w o u l d b e w r o n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d - a n d s e c o n d ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN:

That

Colonel Naidoo

himself

said

in

h is

s u p p o r t in g a ffi d a v i t …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: That he does not mind …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : If h i s v o ic e i s h e a r d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d p r o te c t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : H is p r o te c t o r s a r e s a ti s f i e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : W i t h th e a r r a n g e m e n t s t h a t a r e …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. They have been met.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : E n v is a g e d i n th e d r a f t o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : S o m e t h i n g t h a t h a s n o t b e e n e a s y to a c h i e v e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h e p r a c t ic a l it i e s …

Page 19 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : B u t - b u t my …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I t s e e m s to m e i t i s q u it e i m p o r t a n t i f I j u s t a d d
t h is o n ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h a t - t h a t t h e M i n is t e r h a s in v o k e d fi n d i n g s i n
t h e d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e e d in g s t h a t to o k p la c e s o m e y e a r s a g o w h ic h w e r e
p r e s i d e d o v e r b y M r P r e t o r i u s S C a n d - a n d th a t h e m a d e c e r t a i n
10

adverse

or

c a u t io n a r y

fi n d i n g s

in

r e l a ti o n

to

th e

e v id e n c e

of

Colonel Naidoo.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s t h e m a t t e r - f o r i n te r e s t d i d Mr P r e t o r iu s r e ly o n
demeanour?
ADV ROB PET ERSEN:

Th e r e - t h e r e - I c a n fi n d - I c a n - t h a t is

e x a c tl y m y p o i n t. I c a n f in d n o t h i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : In h i s f i n d in g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h a t s u g g e s t t h a t t h e y r e li e d i n a n y w a y …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : O n d e m e a n o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : C h a i r is t h e r e a n y o th e r a s p e c t … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . U n l e s s y o u h a v e - u n l e s s y o u …
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I s t h e r e a n y o th e r a s p e c t w h ic h y o u w o u l d l ik e

Page 20 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
me to address now?
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no.

I t h in k I a m - I a m k e e n to h e a r

M r M a d o n s e l a n o w. T h a n k y o u .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M a d o n s e l a y o u - y o u h a v e t h e b e n e f it o f k n o w i n g
what is going on in my mind.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I n d e e d C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :
10

A s u b s t a n ti a l p a r t o f t h e in t e r a c ti o n

w h ic h C h a ir p e r s o n h a s h a d w i t h m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d h a s t a k e n o u t o f my
a r g u m e n t s e t i n s te e l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h a t I w a s c o m in g t o t h is C h a ir p e r s o n
- t o t h i s C o m m i s s io n w i t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

I n p r i n c i p l e w e h a v e n o o b j e c ti o n t o

t h e a u g m e n te d o r a m e n d e d d r a f t o r d e r s a v e i n r e l a t i o n t o t w o a s p e c ts
w h ic h h a v e b e e n r a is e d d u r in g th e i n t e r a c t io n w i th m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : A n d - a n d t h o s e c o n d i t io n s a r e m a i n ly
in r e la t io n t o w h a te v e r t h e o r d e r s h o u l d b e - w h a t e v e r th e o r d e r s h o u ld
b e i n r e l a t i o n t o th e in c a m e r a p r o c e e d i n g s . W e s u b m i t fo r t h e r e a s o n s
w h ic h I w i ll a d v a n c e i n a m o m e n t t h a t i t s h o u ld a c c o m m o d a t e o r p e r m it
t h e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s a s w e l l a s t h e l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s to s e e h i m
b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e a lr e a d y d o n e s o in t h e p a s t a n d s e c o n d l y th a t

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w h a t e v e r t h e - th e e m b a r g o o r th e - t h e i n c a m e r a o r d e r s h o u l d c o n ta i n
it s h o u l d s a n c ti o n a s w e l l th a t a n y r e s p o n s e g iv e n b y t h e i m p li c a t e d
p e r s o n s to t h e a l le g a ti o n s m a d e a g a i n s t t h e m s h o u l d s i m il a r l y b e
e m b a r g o e d t o t h e e x t e n t th a t i t m a y b l o w c o v e r to t h o s e i n d i v i d u a ls w h o
a r e r e f e r r e d to i n t h e s t a t e m e n t s o f C o l o n e l N a i d o o . T h o s e a r e t h e t w o
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h a t - th a t is s i m il a r - t h a t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t I
think.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :
10

T h o s e a r e t h e t w o - th o s e t h e tw o

c o n n e c t io n s w h i c h w e w o u l d li k e t o p l a c e t o a n y a m e n d e d o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J u s t g o b a c k to t h e fir s t o n e . L e t m e ju s t h e a r
t h e fi r s t o n e .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : Th e f ir s t o n e is th a t a n a m e n d e d o r d e r
s h o u l d p e r m it th e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s a n d th e l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s
r e p r e s e n ti n g th e m t o b e a b le t o s e e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : C o l o n e l N a i d o o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W h e n h e t e s ti f ie s . A t s o m e p o i n t w h e n

20

he …
CHAIRPERSON: At some point.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : A t s o m e p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t n e c e s s a r i ly to b e t h e r e th r o u g h o u t …
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e t e s ti m o n y b u t a t l e a s t t o s e e h is f a c e a n d t h e n -

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s o th a t th e y - t h e y k n o w th e - t h e f a c e .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

Th a t

t h is

is

the

person

who

is

t e s ti fy in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

A s y o u s a i d fo r t h e p o s i ti o n o f t h e

M i n is t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : H e m e e ts s o m a n y N a i d o o ’s i n D u r b a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : C h a ir p e r s o n y o u k n o w t h a t … .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h e r e a r e s o m a n y N a i d o o ’s i n D u r b a n
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Well …
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : A n d h e w a s a N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e a ls o a lo t o f Z o n d o ’s a n d M a d o n s e l a ’s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

A n d M a d o n s e la ’s ; a n d h e w a s t h e

Head of the National …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

P o li c e S e r v ic e s .

There could be so

m a n y N a i d o o ’s ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : H e w a n t s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

H e w a n t s t o j u s t b e c e r ta i n in h i s

Page 23 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
response …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

B u t I a m a c t u a l ly ta lk in g a b o u t t h e

very man …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h a t is t e s t if y i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : A t th e v e r y le a s t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I m u s t s a y t h a t w h e n I h a v e r e a d h i s a ffi d a v i t t h a t -

t h e M i n is t e r ’s a ffi d a v it o r o p p o s i n g a ffi d a v i t i t g a v e m e t h e i m p r e s s io n
t h a t - th a t h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t s o m e b o d y th a t h e k n e w b u t s o m e w h e r e
e ls e in t h e a ffi d a v i t h e s e e m e d t o s u g g e s t - t o g iv e t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t
he did not know him.
S o - s o - b u t i t m a y b e t h a t i t is - i t is t h e w a y h e w a s t a l k i n g
a b o u t C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s te s t i m o n y a t t h e d i s c i p l in a r y h e a r in g . I t w a s a s
if i t w a s s o m e b o d y t h a t h e k n o w s b u t I - I a c c e p t t h a t h e d o e s n o t k n o w
h i m y o u k n o w b u t I a m - I a m j u s t li n k in g t h a t t o w h a t I s a i d e a r li e r o n
y o u k n o w. I t h a d g iv e n m e th a t i m p r e s s io n b u t I - I a c c e p t t h a t h e s a y s
he does not know him.

20

A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W e l l n o t h e p o s i ti o n o f t h e M i n is t e r i s
that he may know him. He may not know him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

H e j u s t w a n ts t o a s c e r ta i n t h i s v e r y

fact.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W h ic h - w h ic h - a n d h e j u s t w a n ts t o s e e t h e f a c e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
a n d b e a b l e t o s a y o h i t is s o m e b o d y I k n o w o r i t is n o t s o m e b o d y t h a t I
do not know?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O k a y.

S o t h a t i s - t h a t i s th e f ir s t p o i n t a n d

t h e s e c o n d o n e y o u - j u s t a r ti c u la t e th e s e c o n d - s e c o n d o n e .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

T h e - th e s e c o n d o n e i s t h a t i f a n y

e m b a r g o o r i n c a m e r a o r d e r is t o b e g r a n t e d i t s h o u l d a ls o o r s i m il a r ly
a p p ly to t h e r e s p o n s e s g i v e n b y t h e i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n s . C e r t a i n l y th e
M i n is t e r i n s o f a r a s i t m a y b l o w t h e c o v e r …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : O f th o s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W h o a r e c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e r e s p o n s e s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h a t h e is g iv in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

Because

it

would

be

u n f a ir

C h a ir p e r s o n …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

To a l lo w N a i d o o t o p u b l ic a l ly in d u l g e

in t h e s l a n d e r o f i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s u n d e r th e c u r t a i n o f s e c r e c y. T h e y
want it to be built around him.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

T h e f a ir n e s s m u s t d i c t a t e t h a t i f h e

Page 25 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w a n ts t o d o t h a t if h e w a n ts s e c r e c y to b e g iv e n to s o m e - t o h i m a s a
c o o p e r a ti v e a s a m e m b e r o f th e I n t e ll i g e n c e a t t h e t i m e .

S i m il a r

p r o t e c t io n s h o u ld b e g iv e n t o t h o s e w h o a r e i n v o lv e d in t h e e n ti r e
a c ti v i ti e s o f t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I - I a m n o t s u r e i f I f o l lo w th e s e c o n d p o in t a n d I

w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I d o . I t h o u g h t w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g e a r l ie r o n w a s
t h a t a n a m e n d e d o r d e r s h o u ld a ls o s a y s o m e th i n g to th e e ff e c t t h a t in
w h a t e v e r t h e M i n is te r o r h is l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e m a y s a y m a y b e b y - i f
- i f h e is g r a n t e d l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e - m a y b e I a m n o t s u r e .
T h e y m u s t b e c a r e f u l n o t t o s a y a n y t h i n g t h a t m i g h t b l o w th e

10

w i t n e s s ’ c o v e r. I - I t h o u g h t t h a t - t h a t is w h a t y o u w e r e s a y in g . W a s I
r ig h t ?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : Yo u a r e r i g h t . T h a t a n d a l s o …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

The cover of those people who were

c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e a c ti v i ti e s i n r e la t io n t o w h i c h N a id o o t e s ti f ie s a b o u t
in h is R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. It m a y b e t h a t w h a t y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t
is w h a t w e d i d l a s t w e e k in r e g a r d t o C o l o n e l R o e l o f s e .
20

When

C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e w a s t e s ti f y i n g a n d a lo t o f p e o p le h e w a s t e s t i fy i n g
a b o u t w e r e i n t h e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e D e p a r t m e n t o r u n i t o f t h e S A P S .
H e w a s i m p l ic a t e d a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e .
S o m e o f w h o m c o u l d b e a g e n ts a n d I t h in k a t t h a t s t a g e th e r e
w a s n o c e r ta i n t y w h o w a s a n a g e n t , w h o is n o t a n a g e n t .

R u le 3 . 3

N o t ic e s h a d b e e n s e n t t o th e m a n d it w a s d e c i d e d t h a t i n h i s e v i d e n c e

Page 26 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
a n d in h is s ta t e m e n t h e w o u l d n o t r e f e r t o th e m b y t h e ir n a m e s .

He

w o u ld - h e w o u l d g iv e e a c h o n e o f t h e m a n u m b e r.
I t h in k t h e r e w a s f o r e x a m p l e F 1 , F 8 , F 6 , F w h a te v e r.

So -

b u t t h e n a m e s w e r e p r o v i d e d t o m e i n a s e a l e d e n v e lo p e w h e r e a t s o m e
s t a g e I c o u l d h a v e a lo o k a n d s e e w h o i s F 1 , w h o is F8 , w h o a n d s o o n
b u t th a t w a s o n th e b a s is th a t a n a p p r o a c h h a s b e e n m a d e to t h e
r e l e v a n t a u th o r i ti e s b y t h e C o m m is s i o n ’s l e g a l te a m t o s a y o f th e s e
n a m e s t e ll u s w h o s h o u l d r e a l ly b e p r o t e c t e d y o u k n o w b u t u n t il w e
k n o w w h o i s - s h o u l d n o t b e p r o te c te d w e w il l p r o t e c t e v e r y b o d y b u t 10

s o I - is t h a t t h e k i n d o f t h in g y o u h a v e i n m i n d ?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

T h a t i s t h e k i n d o f t h i n g w e h a v e in

m i n d C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

We - we base that on - on the

c o n te n ti o n w h i c h I - I w a n te d to m a k e la t e r t h a t th e r e i s a n i n e v i t a b il i ty
in t h e e v id e n c e o f N a i d o o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h a t i n r e s p o n s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

A

cover

of

c e r ta in

I n t e l li g e n c e

S e r v ic e s o p e r a t iv e s w il l h a v e to b e b lo w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . H m . Ye s , b u t …
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

Is t h a t p r o te c t i o n t h a t w e w a n t t o s a y

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A r e - a r e y o u n o w - i s w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g g o in g

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
a s f a r a s s a y i n g w h e n t h o s e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s c o m e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e
t h e y s h o u l d a ls o b e a ff o r d e d t h e s a m e k i n d o f a r r a n g e m e n ts i n t e r m s o f
in c a m e r a h e r e ?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: I think …
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : O f c o u r s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th in k w h a t w e s h o u l d d o - l e t u s n o t d e c i d e t h a t n o w
10

because that is not before me …
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f a n d w h e n a p e r s o n w h o is i m p l ic a te d w a n ts t o
g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d t h e y w a n t t h e s a m e a r r a n g e m e n t th e n th e y c a n b r i n g
a s i m il a r a p p li c a t io n a n d t h e n i t c a n b e c o n s i d e r e d . J a , b u t I t h i n k w e
n o t e w h a t y o u h a v e s a id a n d I t h in k i t is i m p o r t a n t b u t I th i n k i t is - t h e y
w o u ld h a v e t o b r in g a n a p p li c a t io n t h e r ig h t ti m e a n d - a n d t h e n i t m u s t
b e c o n s id e r e d .
O t h e r p e o p l e m u s t g e t a c h a n c e t o o p p o s e i f t h e y w a n t to
o p p o s e a n d t h e n a d e c is i o n c a n b e ta k e n .

20

A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : Ye s . I w i l - I w il l s a y v e r y li t tl e a b o u t
d e m e a n o u r b e c a u s e - b e c a u s e m u c h o f w h a t h a s b e e n s a i d is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A p p li e s t o y o u a s w e ll ?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W e l l C h a i r p e r s o n I t h i n - I s u s p e c t t h e
r e a s o n w h y d e m e a n o u r h a s n o t f e a t u r e d v e r y p r o m i n e n tl y in y o u r
ju d i c i a l l i fe is p r o b a b ly b e c a u s e o f t h e n a t u r e o f t h e p r o c e e d i n g s i n

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w h ic h y o u p r e s id e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

There - there may be adversarial

p r o c e e d i n g s . T h e s e a r e i n q u is it o r ia l .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h e y s o m e h o w d e p e n d o n t h e tr u t h o r
t h e tr u th f u l n e s s o f t h e w i tn e s s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :
10

D e m e a n o u r m ig h t c h i p in .

T h is is

p r e c i s e ly th e p o s i ti o n h e r e b e c a u s e o f th e c a g e y r e s p o n s e s t h a t N a i d o o
h a s g iv e n in t h e a ffi d a v i ts w h ic h a r e c u r r e n tly b e f o r e y o u …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

I n r e la t io n to - y o u r e m e m b e r i n t h e

f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t h e s a i d C e le a r r iv e d a n d I w a s t h e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : A n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

W h a t w a s - t h a t w a s m e a n t t o a l lo w

y o u t h e C h a i r p e r s o n to d r a w a n i n fe r e n c e t h a t t h e y m a y h a v e s e e n e a c h
20

o th e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : N o w i n - i n r e p l y h e s a y s n o w e ll I a m
a c t u a ll y n o t - I m u s t c l a r i f y m y s e l f.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I d i d n o t s e e C e l e .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : S o a l l t h a t h e is t a l k i n g a b o u t is p u r e
h e a r s a y fr o m p e o p le w h o s a w C e l e o n s o m e o t h e r o c c a s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t …
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

To t h e e x t e n t th a t t h i s C h a ir p e r s o n

c o u l d h a v e d r a w n - c o u l d h a v e d r a w n o n th e e v id e n c e t h a t h e h a s g iv e n
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I n t h e 3 . 3 N o t ic e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I t c o u ld e a s i ly h a v e b e e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

T h a t a n in f e r e n c e c o u ld b e d r a w n

a g a in s t C e l e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

O n th e a ll e g a t i o n s h e h a s m a d e

b e c a u s e o f th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t w a s c r e a t e d i n t h o s e - i n t h o s e
a ffi d a v i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . I - I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t b u t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u to
20

b e s a y i n g y o u d o n o t w a n t a ls o t o r e ly m u c h o n d e m e a n o u r. A m I r i g h t?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I a m n o t s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e - w e l l y o u d o n o t h a v e to - y o u d o n o t h a v e
t o w a iv e a n y - a n y r i g h t t o r e l y o n i t b u t I a m - I a m j u s t s a y i n g I m e a n
d e m e a n o u r is a b o u t h o w - i t is a b o u t s a y i n g w h e n th is w i tn e s s w a s
a s k e d t h is q u e s t io n I s a w h o w h e w a s s h a k e n o r h e lo o k e d d o w n o r th a t

Page 30 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
k in d o f t h i n g .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W e ll d e m e a n o u r is ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u k n o w s o …
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - b u t I - I t h in k - I t h i n k i n o r d e r to s a v e ti m e

b e c a u s e I t h in k w h a t y o u h a v e d o n e is y o u h a v e m a d e c l e a r t h a t y o u
a r e n o t o p p o s e d t o t h e g r a n t in g o f t h e a m e n d e d o r d e r. Yo u h a v e r a is e d
t w o p o in ts w h ic h y o u - y o u - I t h i n k t h e - t h e s e c o n d o n e r e la t e s t o
o th e r
10

p e o p le

r e a lly

and

I

have

said

when

they

want

s i m il a r

a r r a n g e m e n ts th e y w i ll a p p ly a n d th e n w e w i ll c o n s i d e r i t .
S o i t s e e m s t o m e th a t i t g o e s b a c k t o s a y i n g y o u - i t i s - i t is
o n e p o i n t y o u - y o u r e a ll y a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t. O t h e r w is e y o u d o n o t
h a v e a n y q u a r r e l w i t h t h e a m e n d e d o r d e r a n d t h e p o in t is a b o u t a n
o p p o r t u n i ty f o r th e M in is t e r a n d it m a y b e t h a t - i t m a y b e th a t o n e
w o u ld n o t m a k e i t b la n k e t to e v e r y b o d y … .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : H m .
CHAIRPERSON: As such because maybe for some people it might be
appropriate to grant it. Maybe for others I am not sure but your - your
c o n c e r n is t h a t a t s o m e s ta g e o r a n o th e r t h e M in is t e r - y o u w o u ld a s k

20

t h a t th e o r d e r s h o u l d b e s u c h a s to a l lo w t h e M i n i s te r t o s e e h i s f a c e ?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
say about that.

Ja.

S o I th in k le t m e h e a r w h a t Mr P e t e r s e n h a s t o

I f t h e r e is n o t h in g fu r t h e r t h a t y o u w a n t - y o u w o u l d

lik e to s a y.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

I j u s t w a n te d t o - t o q u a li f y th e is s u e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
a b o u t d e m e a n o u r t o s a y t h a t w e a r e n o t r e a ll y p i t c h in g o u r - o u r c a s e
on demeanour per se.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W e p i tc h i n g o u r c a s e o n c r e d i b i li ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

P r e c is e ly b e c a u s e th is v e r y w it n e s s -

t h is v e r y C o l o n e l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :
10

Has been found to be an incredible

witness in proceedings before …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : A n d m o r e i m p o r t a n tly b y t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

Evidence

leader

of

th is

very

Commission.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y in c r e d ib l e ?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : C r e d i b il i ty y e s . C r e d i b il it y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : H e w a s fo u n d …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s d is b e li e v e d . H e w a s ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : H e w a s fo u n d d is h o n e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

No

not

in c r e d ib le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o t h a t is fi n e .

Page 32 of 191

incredible.

E x c it i n g ly

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h a t is d i s h o n e s t . T h a t is - t h a t i s th e
…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

To t h e e x t e n t t h a t i n t h e f u tu r e w e

in t e n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

A n d w e w i ll c r o s s t h a t r iv e r w h e n w e

c o m e t o i t . To c r o s s - e x a m i n e w i tn e s s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

To

-

to

c r o s s - e x a m in e

N a id o o

d e p e n d in g o n w h e t h e r w e a r e g i v e n a n o p p o r tu n it y t o d o t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

B u t h is e v id e n c e m i g h t v e r y w e ll t u r n

o n h i s c r e d i b i li ty.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W h i c h w e w o u ld lik e to a t ta c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : G iv e n w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d b e fo r e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

May - maybe what we would - maybe what we

w i ll d o is - I w i ll h e a r w h a t M r P e t e r s e n h a s to s a y a b o u t t h e is s u e o f
t h e o r d e r b e i n g a m e n d e d i n s u c h a w a y t h a t e i t h e r i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s
c a n s e e h i m j u s t t o s e e h is f a c e a s o p p o s e d to o b s e r v i n g h i m
t h r o u g h o u t h is g iv i n g o f e v i d e n c e a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e e h is fa c e o r w h e t h e r w e s h o u l d s i m p ly w o r k o n t h e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
b a s is t h a t t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t a n y i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n m ig h t w is h t o b e
a l lo w e d t o s e e h i s f a c e a t a n y p a r ti c u l a r ti m e .

L e t th a t r e q u e s t b e

m a d e a t th e r i g h t ti m e a n d i t b e c o n s i d e r e d th e n a n d w e - w e ta k e i t
fr o m t h e r e .
I n o t h e r w o r d s w e d o n o t e x c l u d e t h e p o s s i b i li ty o f g r a n ti n g
t h a t b u t w e s a y le t i t b e d e a l t w it h o n - e a c h o n e l e t - le t e a c h o n e b e
d e a lt w i t h o n it s m e r i t s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M r P e t e r s e n .
10

ADV ROB PET ERSEN:

C h a i r I d o n o t k n o w if y o u w is h to h e a r

M r B a l o y i f ir s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh has he got some submissions.

I a m s o r r y.

I

f o r g o t a b o u t h i m . M r B a lo y i .
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : T h a n k - t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. C h a ir,
I - my s u b m is s i o n s a r e g o i n g t o b e v e r y b r i e f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : C h a ir, I - I r e p r e s e n t G e n e r a l M p h e g o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : H e is o n e o f t h e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : C h a ir o u r s u b m is s i o n s a n d m y c li e n t’s m a i n
w o r r i e s a r e t h a t it is e s s e n ti a l fo r h i m t o b e a b l e to p u t a f a c e o f
G e n e r a l N a i d o o t o h is e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : It is q u i te c r u c ia l …

Page 34 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV KGAUGELO BALOYI:

A n d - a n d a s y o u a r e a w a r e C h a ir i t - i t

m i g h t h e l p t o u n r a v e l w h a t e v e r t h a t c a n b e u n r a v e ll e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : F o r - f o r h i m t o b e a b l e t o a p p ly fo r c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV KGAUGELO BALOYI:

S o J u d g e w e d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m w it h

t h e p r o p o s e d d r a f t o r d e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV KGAUGELO BALOYI:

Fo r a s lo n g a s o u r c l ie n t w il l b e p e r m it t e d

to …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : To p u t a fa c e t o t h is e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja and …
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : J u d g e th a t is t h e m a i n - t h a t is m a in c r u x .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n th a t e v e n t y o u d o n o t m in d w h e t h e r i t is a

q u e s t io n o f y o u r c li e n t b e in g a ll o w e d t o s e e h i m i n p e r s o n o r b e i n g
g iv e n h is p ic t u r e o r d o y o u m i n d - i n o th e r w o r d s i f y o u a r e g iv e n a
20

p ic t u r e to s a y t h i s is h i m . W o u ld t h a t b e o k a y ?
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : J u d g e I - I th i n k i t w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t f o r y o u r
c li e n t t o s e e M r N a id o o i n p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : It - i t w il l b e v e r y c r u c i a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 35 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : Fo r u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h in k I a m - I a m i n c li n e d t o - to s a y le t - le t
t h e o r d e r b e s u c h t h a t y o u a r e a b l e - a n y p e r s o n - a n y i m p lic a t e d
p e r s o n is a b le to m a k e a n a p p li c a t io n a t t h e r i g h t ti m e t o s e e h i m a n d I
w o u ld th e n d e c i d e it - d e c id e e a c h a p p li c a ti o n o r r e q u e s t o n i ts m e r it s .
I a m in c l in e d th a t w e d o i t t h a t w a y b e c a u s e th e r e m a y b e s o m e w h o
m a k e o u t a g o o d c a s e a n d th e r e m a y b e o t h e r s w h o m i g h t n o t m a k e o u t
a good case.
S o - s o I t h i n k t h a t s h o u l d a c c o m m o d a t e y o u b e c a u s e i t g iv e s
10

y o u t i m e - a n o p p o r t u n i ty l a t e r o n to t h e n b r in g s u c h a n a p p lic a ti o n .
ADV KGAUGELO BALOYI:

Judge I - I agree.

I t m a y w e ll b e s o . A s

lo n g a s t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : T h a t o u r c l i e n t ’s r ig h ts a r e r e s e r v e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : To b e a b l e to - to s e e th e fa c e o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : O f Mr N a i d o o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
20

A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : T h a t - t h a t w i ll b e in o r d e r J u d g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V K G A U G E L O B A L O Y I : P le a s e s t h e c o u r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a n k y o u . M r P e t e r s e n . O h M r M a d o n s e l a y o u w a n t
to …
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

Before

Page 36 of 191

the

-

b e fo r e

the

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
Mr Rob Petersen …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : R e p li e s . Th e r e is a m a t te r w h ic h h a s
b e e n r a is e d b y m y ju n i o r M r M la b a h e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W h i c h m a y b e o f s o m e i m p o r t a n c e i f if it is - i t c a r r i e s s o m e w e ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :
10

Attention has been drawn to the

provisions of Section 15(1) …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : O f th e W it n e s s Pr o t e c ti o n A c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

W h ic h I w o u l d li k e t o r e a d i n t o t h e

record. It says:
“ I n a n y c i v il p r o c e e d i n g s i n w h ic h a p r o t e c t e d
p e r s o n is a p a r ty o r a w i tn e s s m a y s u b je c t t o s u b
s e c t io n t w o b e p r o c e e d e d w i t h i n t e r m s o f th e la w
r e g u la t in g s u c h p r o c e e d i n g s . ”
20

A a n d s u b s e c t io n tw o s a y s :
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : “ I f i t a p p e a r s t o a J u d g e … ”
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

“ … o f a H ig h C o u r t i n a n e x

p a r t e a p p li c a t io n m a d e to h i m o r h e r i n c h a m b e r s b y

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
a D ir e c to r. T h a t s a f e ty … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. By … ?
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : B y a D i r e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : “ T h a t s a f e ty o f a n y p r o t e c t e d
p e r s o n m i g h t b e e n d a n g e r e d b y th e in s t it u ti o n o r
p r o s e c u t i o n o f a n y c iv i l p r o c e e d i n g s i n w h ic h th e
p r o t e c t e d p e r s o n is a p a r t y a s a w i t n e s s a n d
proceedings …”
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

“ … i s d e f in e d i n t h e Ac t t o

in c l u d e a ls o … ”
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

“ … C o m m is s i o n s o f In q u ir y

…”
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

“…appointed in terms of an

a c t o f P a r li a m e n t . ”
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
20

A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W h a t - w h a t m y l e a r n e d j u n i o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

H a s d r a w n t o m y a t te n t io n i s t h a t i n

t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h e a p p li c a ti o n f o r a p r o te c t e d p e r s o n

Page 38 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : To b e p la c e d i n c a m e r a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

H a s n o t b e e n b r o u g h t a t t h e i n s ta n c e

o f a D ir e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I n f a c t t h e D i r e c t o r d o e s m a k e m e n t io n
of the fact …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

T h a t h e h a s n o p r o b l e m s w i th t h e -

s a f e g u a r d i n g t h e s a f e ty o f t h e w it n e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh, huh-uh.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

And it might very well be that that

c o n s i d e r a ti o n is …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : F u n d a m e n ta l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :
20

To th e - t o t h e o u tc o m e o f th e

a p p lic a ti o n b e c a u s e a t p a r a g r a p h 3 4 …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

O f t h e f o u n d in g a ff i d a v i t N a id o o d o e s

in f a c t m a k e i t c l e a r th a t h e - h is s a f e t y b e e n a s s u r e d b y t h o s e w h o a r e
t a k i n g c a r e o f h i m in …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I n t h i s p r o t e c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

So it may very well be that this

a p p lic a ti o n o u g h t t o h a v e p r o p e r l y b e i n g b r o u g h t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

A t t h e in s t a n c e o f a D ir e c to r w h o is

d e f in e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I n t h e A c t i ts e lf …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

A n d t o t h e e x te n t th a t i t h a s b e e n

b r o u g h t a t th e i n s t a n c e o f N a id o o h i m s e l f.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : W h o s e c r e d i b i li ty i s a t s t a k e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :

I n t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s .

It might very

w e ll u n d e r m in e t h e v e r y in s ta n c e o f t h e tr u t h o f w h a t - o f w h i c h
u n d e r p i n s th is a p p l ic a t i o n .

I th o u g h t w e s h o u l d b r in g t h a t t o t h e

a tt e n ti o n o f th e C h a i r p e r s o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : S o t h a t i t m i g h t f e a t u r e ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I t h in k - I t h i n k t h a t is i m p o r t a n t . I t m a y w e ll
b e - I h a v e n o d o u b t t h a t t h e - t h a t t h e D i r e c t o r is - is a w a r e o r I t h in k
h e s h o u ld - h e w o u l d b e a w a r e o f t h e a p p lic a ti o n a n d I h a v e n o d o u b t
t h a t h e w o u l d s u p p o r t i t b e c a u s e i t m a y b e th a t if t h e r e i s n o t h i n g

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
in d i c a t in g t h a t h e - w h a t h is p o s it i o n is - i t m a y b e t h a t a d o c u m e n t m a y
b e o b t a in e d f r o m h i m t h a t s a y s s o m e th in g l ik e I a m i n f u l l s u p p o r t …
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : O f th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e a p p l ic a t i o n , j a .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I t m a y b e c r i ti c a l t o
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : To …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : To l e g a l p u r i ty.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

No, no.

I agree.

I agree.

Thank you very

much.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : T h a n k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Petersen.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I w o u l d l ik e t o b e g i n w i th t h e la s t p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I a m tr y in g to lo o k w h e r e m y l o o k …
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To fi n d w h e r e t h e A c t is .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : K K 1 . 4 i t e m 3 is t h e W it n e s s P r o t e c t io n Ac t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Th e r e a r e to o m a n y o f t h e s e f il e s .

I think there

s h o u l d b e - a ll o f th e s e t h i n g s s h o u l d b e p u t i n o n e b i g l e v e r a r c h f il e
w i t h d i v i d e r s i f p o s s i b l e . Ye s . I h a v e - I h a v e g o t t h e A c t . S o w e g o t o
paragraph - Section 15?
ADV ROB PETER SEN:

Ye s , b u t ju s t b e f o r e I g o th e r e C h a ir, th e

d e f in i ti o n o f p r o c e e d in g s , t h a t ’s o n p a g in a te d p a g e 1 5 i n th e r e d
n u m b e r i n g m e a n s , a n y c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d in g s , p r o c e e d i n g s b e f o r e a

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C o m m i s s i o n e tc e te r a , s o c l e a r l y i t is c o r r e c t a s m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d s a id
t h a t t h e s e a r e p r o c e e d i n g s b u t i f w e g o t o S e c t io n 1 8 b e f o r e w e c o m e
t o S e c ti o n 1 5
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e c ti o n 1 8 ?
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s t h a t’s o n p a g i n a te d p a g e 2 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ROB PETER SEN:

N o tw i th s t a n d i n g a n y o t h e r la w th e p r e s i d i n g

o ffic e r a t a n y p r o c e e d in g s o r a t c iv il p r o c e e d i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV ROB PETERSEN:

S o i t a p p e a r s t h a t c i v i l p r o c e e d i n g s c o u ld b e

s p e c i a lly r e f e r r e d t o . C iv i l p r o c e e d i n g s d o n ’ t e m b r a c e a ll p r o c e e d i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

S o t h e n i f w e g o t o S e c t io n 1 5 t h a t ’s p a g i n a te d

p a g e 2 6 , S e c ti o n 1 5 i s e s p e c ia ll y d e d ic a t e d t o c iv i l p r o c e e d i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, yes.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d m y s u b m is s io n i s t h a t i t d o e s n ’ t a p p l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

So

it looks

li k e

your

s u b m is s i o n i s

that

th e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e a n a p p li c a t io n fo r – i n c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d in g s
s h o u l d b e b r o u g h t b y th e D i r e c t o r a r e c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e w e a r e
20

t a lk in g a b o u t c i v i l p r o c e e d i n g s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : E x a c t ly f o r m a l c iv il p r o c e e d i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a I s e e t h e h e a d in g is , C iv i l P r o c e e d in g s i n w h ic h

[i n d is t in c t] p e r s o n is a p a r ty o r w i t n e s s .
ADV ROB PETER SEN:

Ye s a n d t h e n i n s u b o n e i n h is c i v i l

p r o c e e d i n g s . S o my s u b m is s i o n is th a t , t h a t’s n o t a – i t ’s n o t r e l e v a n t.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON:

I t’s n o t th e o n l y p r o c e e d i n g s a n d t h e d e fi n i t io n o f

p r o c e e d i n g s i n c l u d e s p r o c e e d in g … [ i n te r v e n e s ].
ADV

ROB

PETER SEN:

Proceedings

in

general

includes

the

Commission.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e n 1 8 r e fe r s t o a n y p r o c e e d i n g s – a t a n y

p r o c e e d i n g s a s w e ll a s [i n d is t in c t] c iv il p r o c e e d i n g s .
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

Ye s s o t h e le g i s l a tu r e a p p e a r s to h a v e h a d a

d is t in c ti o n i n m i n d .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o t h a t 1 8 s u g g e s ts th a t i n s o m e p l a c e s th e s t a t u t e

t a lk s a b o u t w h a t a p p li e s t o c iv i l p r o c e e d i n g s o n l y a n d in o t h e r s i t ta lk s
a b o u t w h a t a p p li e s t o b o t h c iv il p r o c e e d in g s a n d o th e r p r o c e e d in g s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : D o in g m y b e s t t h a t’s th e i n t e r p r e ta t i o n I w o u l d
a ls o g i v e t o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t s e e ms t o b e t h e c a s e ja . O k a y s o w h a t d o
y o u s a y a b o u t M r M a d o n s e la ’s o n ly p o i n t , b e c a u s e t h e o t h e r o n e , w e
agreed.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

My s u b m i s s i o n is th a t it is – i t w o u l d b e

a d e q u a t e l y c a t e r e d fo r b y th e v a r ia t io n o f p a r a g r a p h t w o o f t h e d r a f t
o r d e r a n d t o w h ic h i t h a s b e e n s u g g e s t e d t h a t s o m e w o r d s b e a d d e d
20

b u t e v e n b e fo r e t h e a d d i n g o f t h o s e w o r d s , i f I c o u l d j u s t r e a d to y o u a
p a r a g r a p h w h ic h I p r e p a r e d o n t h i s q u e s ti o n .
“ I t m a y o c c u r a t a f u tu r e d a t e t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n r e c e iv e s
a n d h e C h a ir p e r s o n g r a n t s a n a p p li c a t i o n to c r o s s - e x a m i n e
C o l o n e l N a id o o b u t o n e c o u l d a d d t h a t o r g iv e e v i d e n c e b y a n
i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n w h o s e o w n i d e n ti t y n e e d s to b e p r o t e c t e d

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
fr o m p u b lic d is c lo s u r e .

F o r e x a m p l e , b y v ir tu e o f t h e s e c r e t

w o r k th a t t h e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n is e n g a g e d in o n b e h a l f o f
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e o r a n o t h e r L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c y.

In

such a case…[intervenes].
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I t h i n k t h a t h a s b e e n – I t h i n k t h a t i s t h e o n e th a t
w e a g r e e d s h o u ld b e d e a l t w i t h i f a n d w h e n a n i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n
a p p li e s fo r s i m i la r a r r a n g e m e n ts .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : If t h a t ’s a g r e e d th e n w e c a n s to p .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

J a w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o p u t t h a t i n t h is o r d e r, t h e p o in t

t h a t – t h e o n ly p o in t t h a t M r M a d o n s e l a r a is e s is t h a t h e w o u l d li k e h is
c li e n t t o h a v e t h e o p p o r t u n i ty – th e o r d e r s h o u l d a ll o w h is c li e n t t o a t
le a s t a t s o m e p o in t s e e t h e f a c e o f C o l o n e l N a i d o o a n d I ’v e i n d ic a t e d ,
a n d I d o n ’ t th i n k h e h a s a p r o b l e m , I i n d ic a t e d t o M r B a l o y i b u t t h a t
w o u ld a p p ly to h i m a s w e l l , t h a t m a y b e t h e b e s t w a s to d e a l w it h th a t i s
t o e n s u r e t h a t th e r e is n o t h i n g in t h e o r d e r t h a t p r e v e n t s a n y i m p li c a t e d
p e r s o n i n d u e c o u r s e t o a p p ly f o r a n o r d e r t h a t th e y b e a l l o w e d t o s e e
h is f a c e a n d I w o u ld c o n s i d e r e a c h a p p li c a ti o n o n it ’s m e r i ts a n d d e c i d e
it , I d o n ’ t t h i n k M r M a d o n s e l a h a s a p r o b l e m w it h t h a t , h e d o e s n ’ t h a v e
a p r o b l e m w it h th a t .

20

A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : M a y w e d o t h a t b y w a y o f a f u r t h e r r e fi n e m e n t
of paragraph two?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e – m a y b e i t m i g h t b e a p p r o p r i a t e t o s i m p ly i n c l u d e
a n o r d e r in th e o r d e r a p a r a g r a p h t h a t s a y s s o m e t h i n g a lo n g t h e li n e s
t h a t , n o t h in g i n t h is o r d e r p r e c l u d e s a n d i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n t o – is i t t o
b r i n g o r fr o m b r i n g i n g – n o t h i n g i n t h i s o r d e r p r e v e n t s a n i m p lic a t e d

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
p e r s o n f r o m b r i n g i n g a n a p p l ic a t i o n f o r a n o r d e r t h a t w o u ld a ll o w h i m o r
h e r t o h a v e s i g h t o f C o l o n e l N a i d o o s o t h a t th e y c a n b r in g th a t
a p p lic a ti o n .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h a t w o u l d m a k e it c le a r C h a ir p e r s o n b u t i t is
c o v e r e d b y t w o b u t i t m i g h t b e a d v is a b l e j u s t , f o r th e a v o i d a n c e o f a n y
d o u b t t o e l a b o r a t e i t a c c o r d i n g ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A n d i n r e g a r d t o t h e b r i n g in g o f a n a p p l ic a t i o n ,
fi n e b u t I w o n d e r C h a i r i f i t w o u l d n ’ t b e w i s e t o p r o v id e t h a t y o u m a y
10

a ls o d o t h a t m e r o m o t u ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s m a y b e w e s h o u l d b e a b l e to d o t h a t b e c a u s e I

m i g h t d e c i d e t o d o t h a t m e r o m o t u , ja s o I t h i n k … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h e r e ’s o n e r e m a i n i n g t h i n g , i f I m a y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

I a m c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e s u g g e s ti o n t h a t i t

s h o u l d n e c e s s a r il y i n v o lv e , i f y o u a ll o w i t , t h a t i t s h o u l d n e c e s s a r i ly
in v o lv e m e e t i n g C o l o n e l N a id o o f a c e - t o - f a c e r a t h e r th a n s e e i n g a
p h o t o g r a p h b e c a u s e h e i s a t a l o c a t i o n w h ic h w e d o n ’ t k n o w, u n d e r
w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n .
20

T h e lo g is tic a l a n d s e c u r i ty d i ff ic u l t ie s o f b r i n g i n g

h i m t o a p l a c e a w a y f r o m t h a t l o c a t i o n , e a c h t i m e a n i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n
w a n ts t o p e r s u a d e C h a ir th a t i t ’s n e c e s s a r y t o s e e h i m , c o u ld c r e a t e a n
u n t e n a b le p r o b l e m . S o t h a t i f i t ’s p o s s i b l e t o a c h i e v e th e o b je c t w h e n
y o u a r e s o m in d e d to o r d e r it , b y t h e s h o w in g o f a p h o to g r a p h t h a t
s h o u l d b e th e p r e f e r e n c e a n d i f I ’v e u n d e r s t o o d c o r r e c tl y w h a t h a s b e e n
s a i d t h a t , th a t to o w o u l d h a v e t o b e m o ti v a t e d .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h i n k w h a t t h e a d d i ti o n to t h e o r d e r s h o u l d m a k e
r e fe r e n c e t o b o t h h a v i n g s i g h t o f C o l o n e l N a i d o o o r b e i n g s h o w n a
p ic t u r e o f h i m . S o t h a t w h e n a n a p p l ic a ti o n is m a d e , o n e o f t h e i s s u e s
t h a t a p e r s o n – a n i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n w o u l d h a v e t o a d d r e s s i s , w h y
s h o u l d I s e e h i m in p e r s o n w h y i s i t n o t e n o u g h i f I ’ m s h o w n a p ic t u r e
a n d d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t C o l o n e l N a i d o o , h i ms e l f o r t h e C o m m i s s io n o r
t h e D ir e c t o r m a y p u t u p i n t e r m s o f lo g i s tic a l c h a ll e n g e s o f b r i n g i n g h i m
o u t t o – e a c h ti m e a n d i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n w a n t s to s e e h is f a c e , t h a t
c a n b e g a u g e d a g a in s t s h o w i n g a p ic tu r e t o s a y w h a t ’s th e p r o b l e m w i t h
10

that?
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : In d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f y o u i n c lu d e th a t i n t h e o r d e r i t w il l r e m in d a l l o f
u s a s I d e a l w it h th a t a p p l ic a ti o n t o s a y, t h e r e i s t h e o p ti o n o f s e e i n g a
p ic t u r e ,

w h a t ’s

wrong

with

that,

okay?

A lr i g h t

so

I

think

t h e r e f o r e … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : C h a ir, s o r r y o n e m o r e t h i n g , I ju s t w o u ld n ’t l ik e
t o b e m is u n d e r s t o o d b y s il e n c e a s a g r e e i n g t h a t a n i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n ,
it h a p p e n s t o b e t o d a y, M r B a l o y i ’s c li e n t c a n s a ti s f y y o u b y s i m p ly
s a y in g i t is e s s e n t ia l t h a t my c li e n t m u s t b e a b l e t o m e e t h i m fa c e - t o 20

face.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t ’s t r u e , b e c a u s e w e – I’ m n o t d e c i d i n g t h a t

a n d I’v e s a i d a n a p p li c a t io n w o u l d h a v e t o b e b r o u g h t t o o n e h e d o e s n ’ t
h a v e t o d e a l w i t h th a t h e w o u l d h a v e – h is c li e n t w o u l d h a v e to b r in g a n
a p p lic a ti o n , a p r o p e r a p p lic a ti o n w h ic h w o u l d b e c o n s i d e r e d p r o p e r ly.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

I t w o u ld u s u a ll y in v o lv e a d d r e s s i n g , to s o m e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
e x t e n t , t h e c o n t e x t , t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e N a i d o o e v i d e n c e b u t w h y s e e in g
h i m i n t h a t c o n t e x t is n e c e s s a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o t h a t’s f i n d .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h o s e a r e m y s u b m is s i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th in k w h a t I w a n t t o d o is – b e c a u s e I’ m t a k i n g t h a t
t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g f u r th e r t h a t a n y b o d y w a n ts t o s a y, I t h in k M r M a d o n s e l a
has one more thing.
ADV GRIFFITHS MADONSELA:

Th e r e ’s a [i n d i s t i n c t ] t h a t I w a n t t o

make.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GRIFFITHS MADONSELA:
s u b m is s io n .

In r e l a ti o n to t h e p h o to g r a p h o f

T h e p r e m is e o f o u r c o n c e s s i o n s w a s t h a t t h e w i t n e s s b e

brought here and placed in a separate room and be seen by yourself,
t h a t is t h e d r a f t o r d e r t h a t is b e f o r e y o u . I t i s n o – i t is n o t a q u a n tu m
li b to a s k in t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h a t a w i t n e s s o r i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n
s h o u l d g o i n t o t h a t r o o m a n d s e e n in c o m p a n y r a t h e r t h a n a
p h o t o g r a p h . I ’ m j u s t l e s s c o n f id e n t a b o u t p h o t o g r a p h s b e c a u s e o f th e i r
a b il i ty

to

be

e a s ily

m a n i p u l a te d .

I’ v e

seen

my

p h o to s

being

m a n i p u l a te d o n s o c ia l m e d i a a n d m a n y o t h e r i m p o r t a n t p e o p l e in t h i s
20

c o u n tr y h a v e m a n i p u la t e d p h o t o g r a p h s , I d o n ’ t l ik e – I fe e l v e r y
u n c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h a p h o to g r a p h , p r o v i d e d m a y b e , a s a [ in d i s ti n c t ] t h a t
p h o t o g r a p h w il l b e s h o w n t o y o u to d e fl e c t t h e s a m e p e r s o n t h a t y o u
h a v e s e e n b e c a u s e i f t h a t p e r s o n , a s i t is p r o p o s e d in t h e d r a f t o r d e r,
t h a t h e w i ll b e h e r e k e p t in a s e p a r a t e r o o m a n d t e s t if y i n g fr o m t h a t
r o o m , th e n i t s h o u ld b e e a s y t o i d e n ti f y w h o h e i s .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g b u t e x a c t ly

w h e r e h e w i ll b e w h e th e r it ’s i n t h e s a m e b u i l d i n g o r in a n a d j a c e n t
b u il d in g o r m a n y b lo c k s a w a y is s o m e t h i n g t h a t I’ m n o t c e r ta i n o f n o w
b u t w h e n I w a s r e a d i n g th e d r a f t o r d e r t h e r e w a s a p l a c e w h e r e – w h e n
I c a m e t o i t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r t h i s s u g g e s ts t h a t i t w o u ld b e i n th e
s a m e b u il d i n g , b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t i t n e e d n o t b e i n t h e s a m e
b u il d in g a s l o n g a s m e a s u r e s w o u ld b e t a k e n t o m a k e s u r e th a t h i s
v o i c e – h is e v id e n c e w o u l d b e h e a r d h e r e b u t I th in k t h a t w i th r e g a r d t o
t h e q u e s t i o n o f w h e th e r a n i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s h o u ld b e a ll o w e d to s e e
10

h is f a c e o r s e e a p i c tu r e w e m u s t l e a v e t h a t f o r l a te r b e c a u s e I’ m n o t
g o i n g t o d e c i d e a n y a p p l ic a ti o n to d a y f o r th a t .

If and when an

a p p lic a ti o n is b r o u g h t th e n t h e i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n c a n a d d r e s s t h e
q u e s t io n o f w h y i t’s m o r e i m p o r ta n t t h a t h e s h o u l d s e e th e f a c e r a t h e r
t h a n t h e p ic t u r e m o r e p e r t i n e n tl y a n d t o t h e e x te n t t h a t C o l o n e l N a i d o o
m i g h t o p p o s e , h e c a n d e a l w i t h th a t a s w e l l o r t h e C o m m i s s io n a t t h a t
s t a g e a n d i f t h e r e w il l b e l o g is ti c a l c h a l le n g e s i n g e t ti n g h i m s e e n b y
p e o p l e , t h o s e w i ll b e p u t u p a n d t h e i m p lic a te d p e r s o n c a n d e a l w i th
them.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A :
20

I wanted just to say one – or the

p h o t o g r a p h I w a n t e d to s a y a b o u t i t , i t is t o b e s a n c ti o n e d b y y o u
C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GRIFFITHS MADONSELA:

It s h o u l d b e s a n c t io n e d o n t h e b a s is

t h a t , t h a t p h o to g r a p h s h o u ld b e a p h o to g r a p h t h a t m u s t b e a p p r o v e d b y
yourself because you would have seen him .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : S o t h a t y o u a v o id a n y … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ll e n g e s j a , n o t h a t ’s f in e t h a n k y o u .

Okay Mr

P e t e r s e n I c h a n g e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : C h a i r p e r s o n s o r r y, I’ v e j u s t b e e n a s k e d t o m a k e
it c l e a r s o th a t th e r e is n o p u b li c m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t in f a c t , t h e
d r a f t o r d e r d o e s n ’ t s p e c i fy t h e lo c a t io n o f t h e s e p a r a t e r o o m .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h a t ’s f in e .

I think maybe it might have been

the reference to a separate room that might have given the impression
10

t h a t i t ’s a s e p a r a t e r o o m s e p a r a t e f r o m t h is r o o m w h ic h m i g h t h a v e
g iv e n m e th e i m p r e s s i o n i t ’s a r o o m s o m e w h e r e h e r e a s o p p o s e d t o
a n y w h e r e b u t it ’s w i d e e n o u g h b u t l e t ’s f i n is h n o w s o t h a t I c a n s t a r t
with the oral evidence.

S o I d o n ’t p r o p o s e t o m a k e t h e o r d e r n o w

b e c a u s e I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o a m e n d i t a s w e h a v e d is c u s s e d b u t in
s u b s t a n c e I a m p r e p a r e d t o g r a n t i t s u b j e c t to b e i n g s a ti s fi e d a b o u t
t h a t , s o I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o a m e n d i t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e d i s c u s s io n
a n d b r in g i t l a t e r d u r i n g th e d a y a n d t h e n I c a n r e a d i t o u t. S o – b u t t o
t h e e x te n t t h a t c o u n s e l , M r M a d o n s e l a o r Mr B a l o y i m a y n e e d t o b e
e x c u s e d s o t h a t th e y d o n ’t h a v e t o w a i t fo r th a t t i m e , I ’ m q u i te h a p p y to
20

e x c u s e t h e m b u t t h e y c a n m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o o b ta in th e o r d e r if
t h e y w is h t o .
A D V G R I F F I T H S M A D O N S E L A : I a s s u m e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t t h e w i tn e s s
w h o ’s t e s t i fy i n g is n o t t h e o n e w h o w a s N a i d o o h i m s e l f w h o w a s
s c h e d u l e d t o t e s t i fy t o d a y ?
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o h e is n o t te s t if y i n g t o d a y.

Page 49 of 191

J a h e is n o t

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
t e s ti fy in g t o d a y i t’s a w it n e s s th a t w e s ta r t e d w i th y e s t e r d a y o r m a y b e
le t m e s a y t h is , h e w a s o r i g in a l ly, I t h i n k , m e a n t t o s ta r t t e s t if y i n g
t o d a y, th a t ’s o n e b u t t w o w e m u s t s til l f i n is h a n o t h e r w i tn e s s . N o w w i th
u s o n ly fi n is h i n g t h i s a p p l ic a t i o n a t th is ti m e , I d o u b t t h a t t h is o t h e r
w i t n e s s w i ll fi n i s h w h i le t h e r e i s t i m e to s t a r t w i th C o l o n e l N a i d o o .

I

w i ll h e a r w h a t Mr P e t e r s e n o r w h o e v e r f r o m t h e le g a l te a m m i g h t h a v e
t o s a y b u t i t d o e s n ’ t lo o k li k e , t o m e t h a t h e c o u l d s t a r t to d a y b u t l e t m e
h e a r w h a t th e y h a v e t o s a y s o t h a t y o u h a v e c l a r i ty.
ADV GRIFFITHS MADONSELA:
10

Ye s w e ju s t w a n t t o k n o w a t w h a t

s t a g e s h o u l d w e m a k e o u r s e lv e s a v a il a b l e f o r h i s t e s t i m o n y s o t h a t w e
c a n … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o I u n d e r s t a n d , o h b e c a u s e y o u w a n t to b e h e r e
w h e n t h e e v i d e n c e i s g iv e n b y h i m . N o t h a t’s fi n e w h o ’s g o in g t o d e a l
w i t h … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
A D V G R I F F I T H S M A D O N S E L A : A s I s i t d o w n , m ig h t I ju s t s a y th a t if
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n d o e s h a v e ti m e t o l o o k a t S e c t io n 1 8 , y o u ’ ll s e e th a t a t
t h e e n d o f S e c ti o n 1 8 t h e r e ’s a g a in r e f e r e n c e t o th e D ir e c t o r, u n le s s
t h e D ir e c t o r s a y s s o m e t h i n g .

S o i t’s n o t r e a lly th a t t h e D ir e c to r is

ir r e l e v a n t b u t h e ’s a lw a y s r e l e v a n t i n a l l p r o c e e d in g s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t , M is s W e n tz e l ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir I a m i n v o l v e d in le a d i n g t h e e v i d e n c e o f
Mr Naidoo and Mr Khuba and I agree with your assessment because of
t h e ti m e t h a t t h e a p p li c a t io n h a s t a k e n i t ’s v e r y u n l ik e l y t h a t t h e r e w i ll
b e t i m e t o s ta r t C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s e v i d e n c e t o d a y a n d I t h i n k t h a t it ’s
s a f e t o s a y th a t e v i d e n c e w i ll b e h e a r d t o m o r r o w.

Page 50 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t’s fi n e , t h a t b r i n g s y o u c e r ta i n t y. N o w i n
t e r m s o f – s o m e ti m e s w e d e c i d e a s w e fi n i s h a t 4 o ’ c lo c k o r 5 o ’ c l o c k
w h a t t i m e w e ’l l s t a r t th e fo ll o w i n g d a y, n o r m a l ly w e s t a r t a t t e n b u t
s o m e t i m e s w e s ta r t a t n i n e o r h a l f p a s t n i n e . I t h in k w e m u s t w o r k o n
t h e b a s is t h a t w e w il l s t a r t a t t e n b u t s h o u l d I d e c i d e la t e r o n t h a t i t w ill
b e e a r l i e r t h e n t h e l e g a l t e a m , M is s W e n tz e l w i ll m a k e s u r e t h a t th e y l e t
y o u k n o w o k a y.
A D V G R I F F I TH S M A D O N S E L A : I t m e a n s w e s l e e p o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o y o u s l e e p o v e r, o k a y a lr i g h t .
10

ADV ROB PETERSEN:

C h a ir j u s t f o r m y o w n p r o t e c t io n I d o w is h t o

m a k e i t c l e a r t h a t I w a s a s k e d t o c o m e in ju s t to d e a l w i t h t h is
a p p lic a ti o n , I h a v e n o o t h e r i n v o lv e m e n t i n r e l a t i o n to th e L a w
E n f o r c e m e n t w it n e s s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o t h a t’s f i n e .
ADV GRIFFITHS MADONSELA:

M i g h t I a ls o m e n t io n C h a ir p e r s o n i t

m i g h t n o t b e m e w h o is p r e s e n t h e r e i t m ig h t b e m y j u n i o r [i n d is ti n c t ] to
t h a t e x t e n t i f I a m n o t h e r e i t ’s n o t b e c a u s e I ’ m d is r e s p e c t fu l t o
C h a ir p e r s o n i t ’s b e c a u s e o f s o m e o th e r r e a s o n s b u t le t ’s [i n d is ti n c t ] to
b e m a d e b e c a u s e o f to d a y a n d C h a ir p e r s o n a s I s i t d o w n , m ig h t I a ls o
20

t h a n k y o u f o r e x t e n d i n g t h e c o u r te s y t o u s y e s t e r d a y t o m a k e s u r e t h a t
t h e m a t t e r is s ta r t in g a t e l e v e n , th a t in f o r m a t io n w a s c o n v e y e d to u s i n
ti m e , it r e a l ly d i d h e lp u s a r r a n g e o u r a ffa i r s , t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u , o k a y s o I w il l m a k e t h e o r d e r l a t e r i n t h e
d a y, m a y b e w e s h o u ld a i m f o r 2 o ’c lo c k M r P e t e r s e n b y t h e n w h e n w e
c o m e b a c k fr o m l u n c h i f it ’s r e a d y a t t h a t t i m e t h e n I c o u l d m a k e i t a t

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
t h a t ti m e .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Sk ip p in g l u n c h th a t’s q u i t e p o s s ib le , I h a v e n o
d i ff ic u l ty w i t h th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I ’ m g o i n g t o t a k e a s h o r t b r e a k n o w t o a l lo w M i s s
W e n tz e l t o o r g a n is e b e f o r e w e s t a r t w i t h t h e – w e c o n t in u e w i t h M r
K h u b a ’s e v i d e n c e , w e ’l l a d jo u r n a n d w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t tw e n ty p a s t tw e lv e
it is fiv e p a s t t w e lv e n o w. W e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e a d y M s W e n tz e l?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I a m r e a d y t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r K h u b a y o u c o n ti n u e to t e s ti f y o n th e b a s is o f
t h e o a t h y o u t o o k y e s t e r d a y. Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr K h u b a w e w e r e d e a li n g w i th p a g e 1 0 o f

y o u r s t a t e m e n t p a r a g r a p h 3 3 y e s t e r d a y r e g a r d in g w h o y o u t o ld t h e
20

C h a ir w a s a – w h o y o u b e li e v e d t o b e a k e y w i t n e s s C o lo n e l M a d i lo n g a ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a t h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV

SUSAN

WENTZEL:

C o u ld

you

te ll

th e

C h a ir

about

th e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h th e s t a te m e n t s th a t h e g a v e y o u w a s l e a k e d
to the media?

Page 52 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: It was on Sunday when I saw the
fr o n t p a g e o f t h e S u n d a y n e w s p a p e r t a lk in g a b o u t th e c o n te n t o f th e
s t a te m e n ts .

S o t h a t w o r r ie d m e s o m u c h b e c a u s e I fe l t t h a t i t is a

witness he was vulnerable number 1.

A n d a ls o t h a t i t w a s g o i n g t o

c o m p r o m is e t h e in v e s ti g a t io n . S o w h a t I d i d I t h e n p h o n e d A d v o c a t e
Mosing I was very concerned and when I told him it seems as he had
a lr e a d y r e a d t h e n e w s p a p e r – h e w a s a ls o c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e s a fe ty
o f t h e w i tn e s s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n w h a t d i d – w h a t d i d y o u d o ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms W e n tz e l.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ju s t d o n o t w a n t t o f o r g e t th is s o p l e a s e d o n o t

f o r g e t y o u r q u e s t io n – y o u r n e x t q u e s t io n t o t h e w i t n e s s . I w a s l o o k i n g
a t th e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t j u s t n o w. W h e n M r M c Br id e g a v e e v i d e n c e i n
A p r il o r w h a t e v e r m o n t h i t w a s a n d w h e n Mr S e s o k o g a v e e v id e n c e
y e s t e r d a y a n d th e d a y b e f o r e th e y w e r e n o t a s k e d t o d e a l w i t h t h e
r e a s o n s g i v e n b y W e r k s m a n s i n t h e ir r e p o r t f o r th e fi n d i n g s t h a t t h e y
m a d e a g a i n s t th e m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: That should have been done. And it should be done
w i t h Mr K h u b a a s w e ll .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

P l e a s e m a k e a r r a n g e m e n t s t o a s k b o th M r M c B r i d e

a n d Mr S e s o k o to p r o v id e a ff id a v i ts i n w h ic h t h e y e n g a g e w i th t h a t
r e p o r t h e a d o n i n t e r m s o f t h e f i n d in g s t h a t w e r e m a d e a g a in s t t h e m

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
a n d t h e r e a s o n s a n d a n a ly s is o n w h ic h t h o s e f i n d i n g s s e e m e d t o b e
based and deal with them. And indicated what they admit is true. What
t h e y d o n o t a d m i t is tr u e a n d s a y w h a t t h e y h a v e t o s a y a b o u t t h e
r e a s o n in g a n d th e a n a ly s is i n r e g a r d to e a c h fi n d i n g .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O b v io u s ly i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y t h a t a m e m b e r o f t h e
le g a l t e a m i n te r v i e w e d th e m a n d p r e p a r e s t h a t a ff id a v i t f o r t h e m . B u t i f
t h e y – if th e y o ff e r to p r e p a r e t h e f ir s t d r a f t a n d g iv e it to th e l e g a l
t e a m t o h a v e a lo o k a t a n d th e n s e tt l e i t o r fi n a li s e i t th e n t h a t is f in e
10

b u t w e s h o u l d in r e g a r d t o th e s e t h r e e w i t n e s s e s h a v e a f u ll a n d p r o p e r
e n g a g e m e n t b y e a c h o n e o f th e m w i t h t h e fi n d i n g s a n d t h e r e a s o n s
g iv e n b y W e r k s m a n s f o r t h e f in d i n g s a g a in s t t h e m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I w i ll e n s u r e t h a t th a t i s d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d t h e n – a n d th e n o n c e t h o s e a ffi d a v i t s a r e

t h e r e w e – w e c a n s e e w h e t h e r it i s n e c e s s a r y t o c a ll th e m o r n o t b u t
t h a t w i ll b e h e l p f u l f o r w h e n Mr J u ly o r s o m e b o d y f r o m W e r k s m a n s
c o m e s h e r e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a b o u t th a t r e p o r t a n d t h e ir i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I w i ll e n s u r e t h a t th a t i s d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir n o w t h a t w e h a v e d ig r e s s e d I – I j u s t

w a n t t o i n f o r m y o u o f s o m e t h in g . Yo u a s k e d m e y e s te r d a y i f t h e r e h a d
b e e n a r e s p o n s e b y M r – M s M b e k i a n d I s a id n o th e r e h a d n o t. A n d
t h e r e h a d n o t b u t l a s t n i g h t a t t e n o ’c l o c k t h e c o m m i s s i o n d i d g e t a
r e s p o n s e a n d i n t h a t r e s p o n s e s h e s a y s s h e w o u ld l ik e t o p u t h e r s i d e
o f t h e s to r y a n d s h e w o u ld lik e to c o m e t o th e c o m m i s s i o n a n d m a k e a

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s t a te m e n t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s N o th a t is …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll m a k e s u r e th a t a r r a n g e m e n t s a r e m a d e
f o r t h a t t o h a p p e n a s w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t is – t h a t i s fi n e – t h a t is i m p o r t a n t .

I was

a s k in g b e c a u s e I th o u g h t i t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t t o – f o r h e r to g iv e
e v i d e n c e t o h e a r fr o m h e r.

I t h i n k th a t y o u p e o p le m u s t b e i n t o u c h

w i t h h e r to s e e w h e th e r s h e w o u l d p r e p a r e th a t s h e b e i n t e r v i e w e d b y a
m e m b e r o f th e le g a l t e a m o r t h e in v e s ti g a t o r s t o p r e p a r e h e r s ta t e m e n t
10

o r a ffi d a v it o r w h e t h e r s h e h a s h e r o w n l a w y e r s t h a t s h e w o u l d u s e t o
p r e p a r e b e c a u s e t h e – t h e b e s t w a y t o d o t h a t is f o r h e r to l o o k a t t h e
s t a te m e n ts a n d i f n e c e s s a r y t h e e v i d e n c e g i v e n b y t h e s e t h r e e
w i t n e s s e s b u t t h e y a l l s e e m to s a y t h e s a m e t h i n g a b o u t h e r r o l e a n d
m a y b e s e e i n g w h a t t h e y s a y i n th e s t a te m e n t is e n o u g h b e c a u s e I d o
n o t t h i n k th a t i n th e ir o r a l e v i d e n c e th e y a d d a n y th i n g t h a t is n o t i n th e
s t a te m e n t .

S h e c a n l o o k a t t h o s e s t a te m e n ts a n d t h e n p r e p a r e a n

a ffi d a v i t t h a t r e s p o n d s t o th o s e a l le g a ti o n s a n d e x p la in s h e r s i d e o f th e
s t o r y. O n c e w e h a v e g o t th a t th a t a ffi d a v it t h e n a r r a n g e m e n ts c a n b e
m a d e f o r h e r t o – t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O k a y M r K h u b a y o u s a y t h a t t h e s t a te m e n t

w a s l e a k e d a n d y o u s a i d t h e c o n t e n t o f th e s t a t e m e n t w a s l e a k e d .
C o u ld y o u j u s t e x p l a i n w h a t y o u m e a n t b y t h a t ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

W h a t w a s c l e a r o n th e a r ti c l e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w a s t h e p a r t w h ic h C o l o n e l M a d il o n g a i n d ic a te d t h a t h e s a w t h e
v e h ic l e s w h i c h s e e m e d t o b e t h e v e h ic l e o f d i p l o m a ts a n d t h e n h e
a p p r o a c h e d th e m a n d t h e y i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o a r r e s t
s o m e p e o p l e in t h e c o u n tr y a n d t h e y w o u ld w a n t t o s e e G e n e r a l
Dramat.

T h a t p a r t c a m e o u t v e r y, v e r y c l e a r a n d t h e s t a te m e n t o f

C o l o n e l M a d i l o n g a w a s n o t o n l y a b o u t t h a t.

H e k i n d o f r e a lly l a y a

b r o a d e r e x p l a n a ti o n i n t e r m s o f a s s is t in g C a p t a i n M a l u l e k e i n g e t ti n g
t h o s e p e o p l e a c r o s s t o w h e r e th e Zi m b a b w e a n p o l ic e w e r e .

But that

p a r t w a s n o t r e a l ly c o v e r e d . I t w a s m a in l y o n th e i s s u e o f t h e r o l e o f
10

General Dramat.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . A n d a ft e r y o u h a d e x p r e s s e d y o u r
c o n c e r n s to A d v o c a t e M o s i n g w h a t d id y o u d o ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I t h e n a p p r o a c h e d t h e A c ti n g

E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r M s K o e k i e M b e k i . Fir s t ly I h a d to e x p l a i n to h e r t h e
c h a l le n g e s I h a d a n d th e n I w r o t e a l e tt e r r e q u e s ti n g th a t e a c h a n d
e v e r y te a m m e m b e r o f t h e t a s k t e a m b e p o ly g r a p h e d s o t h a t w e c o u l d
s e e w h o c o m p r o m i s e d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o f t h e c a s e .

S h e w a s a t th e

fir s t w h e n I w a s t a l k i n g t o h e r s u p p o r ti v e t h a t is w h y s h e r e q u e s t e d m e
t o p u t i t in w r i ti n g o f w h ic h I d i d . B u t a f t e r t h a t n o th in g c a m e o u t o f it .
20

I

a ls o

d is c u s s e d

with

A d v o c a te

Mosing

who

was

guiding

the

in v e s t i g a t io n a n d h e s h a r e d t h e s a m e s e n ti m e n t a n d s a i d to m e h e w il l
a ls o v o l u n ta r il y s u b m i t f o r t h e p o ly g r a p h t e s t . A n d b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t
a r r a n g e d fr o m o u r s id e o r t h e p l a n c o u l d n o t m a t e r i a li s e i t w a s fi n a l ly
not done.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e – th e l e t t e r th a t y o u a d d r e s s e d t o M s

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M b e k i i s t h a t t h e le t t e r t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 4 9 o f t h e b u n d l e d a te d t h e
3 1 s t O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d a g a in M s W e n tz e l . I r e a li s e t h a t i t s e e ms
t h a t I h a v e g o t t w o s e ts n o w o f t h e p a g e s t h a t I d id n o t h a v e a t s o m e
s t a g e y e s t e r d a y. It lo o k s li k e th o s e p a g e s m a y h a v e b e e n l o c a t e d i n a
w r o n g p l a c e i n t h e s t a t e m e n t . S o I n o w h a v e tw o s e ts . M a y I r e t u r n ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s p le a s e .
CHAIRPERSON: The ones that were lent to me?
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o i f y o u c a n h a n d t h e m o v e r t o th e m . T h e y

p r o b a b ly n e e d th e m . U n l e s s t h e y h a v e a lr e a d y m a d e o t h e r c o p i e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you very much.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D i d y o u a ls o d i s c u s s y o u r c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e
s a f e t y o f t h e w i t n e s s t o C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e a f t e r t h e s t a te m e n t h a d
b e e n r e l e a s e d o r p u b l is h e d i n t h e m e d i a ?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ye s I d id a n d I s ti ll r e m e m b e r

v e r y w e l l th a t w h e n h e s a w t h a t I w a s r e a l ly w o r r i e d a b o u t t h e s a f e ty
20

a n d t h e l e a k i n g o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n in t h e d o c k e t h e s a i d t o m e t h a t w h y
a r e y o u w o r r i e d b e c a u s e y o u r s u p e r io r s a r e n o t w o r r i e d . T h e M i n is t e r
w i ll n o t a s k y o u a b o u t t h a t a n d y o u r – y o u r s u p e r i o r w i ll n o t a s k y o u
a b o u t t h a t . W h ic h I u n d e r s t o o d h i m t o r e f e r t o M s M b e k i . O f c o u r s e i t
h a p p e n e d t h a t w a y b e c a u s e I n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y – I w a s n e v e r c a ll e d
a n d th a t p a r t i t w a s m e w h o w a s m o r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t i t r a t h e r t h a n

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
Ms Mbeki.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t i m p r e s s i o n d i d y o u f o r m fr o m t h i s

la c k o f c o n c e r n ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
were okay with it.

I – fo r m e I u n d e r s to o d th e y

T h a t is h o w I t o o k it i f th e n – b e c a u s e f o r m e i t

c o n s ti t u te d a c o m p r o m i s e o f i n v e s ti g a t i o n . I ju s t t h o u g h t p r o b a b ly t h e y
w e r e o k a y w i t h i t . Th e y n e v e r h a d a p r o b l e m w i t h i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr K h u b a in p a r a g r a p h 3 7 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t

o n w a r d s y o u d e a l w i t h y o u r d e a li n g s w i t h G e n e r a l N t le m e z a w it h r e g a r d
10

t o t h i s m a tt e r. C o u l d y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n t h a t t o th e C h a i r ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A t t h e t i m e G e n e r a l N t le m e z a

w a s th e D e p u t y Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r f o r L i m p o p o .

I was the

P r o v i n c ia l H e a d . S o fr o m t h e o p e r a t io n a l p o i n t o f v i e w w e h a d a l o t o f
c o n ta c t s w h e r e I r e q u e s t e d a s s is t a n c e e v e n b e fo r e I d e a l t w i t h t h e
R e n d i t io n c a s e . N o w o n e ti m e a r o u n d 2 0 1 3 i t w a s a f t e r I o b ta i n e d t h e
s t a te m e n t o f C o l o n e l M a d il o n g a t h a t h e r e q u e s t e d t o s e e m e a t W i m p y.
I t w a s n o t r e a ll y f a r a w a y fr o m w h e r e h e w a s s ta y i n g . T h e n I o b li g e d to
t h e r e q u e s t a n d w h e n I a r r iv e d t h e r e I f o u n d h i m w it h f e w g e n tl e m e n
a n d o n e o f t h e m w a s i n t r o d u c e d a s a n o ff ic e r fr o m E a s t e r n C a p e .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you just – if you can just address the
C h a ir s o t h a t h e c a n ju s t s e e y o u .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N ic e l y w h e n y o u t e s ti fy.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u . S o h e s a i d h e w a s w i t h a n o ffic e r

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
fr o m t h e E a s t e r n C a p e . D o y o u k n o w t h e n a m e o f t h a t o ffic e r ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e th e
n a m e I t o o k i t – I w a s w r i t in g o n a n o te – n o t e s tic k e r o n th e p h o n e . I
w i ll u s e m y fi n g e r t o w r i t e b u t u n fo r t u n a t e ly t h e p h o n e th a t I u s e d l o n g
ti m e a g o b u t I c o u ld n o t r e a ll y t a k e a l l t h e d e t a i ls . B u t w h a t h e s a id t o
m e – h e s a i d h e w a s a t t e n d in g a c o u r s e o r tr a i n i n g i n C a p e To w n w i t h
C a p t a i n M a l u le k e . W h e n C a p t a i n M a l lu l e k e c o n f in e d t o h i m a b o u t w h a t
h a p p e n e d in th e a r r e s t o f M o y o . M o y o w a s a w a n t e d p e r s o n f o r v a r i o u s
c a s e s a n d a c c o r d in g t o t h e in f o r m a t io n t h e y t o l d m e t h e y s a id h e h a d
10

s li p p e d o u t o f th e c o u n tr y, w e n t b a c k t o Zi m b a b w e .

N o w t h i s o ff ic e r

s a i d C a p t a in M a l u le k e t o ld h i m t h a t h e w e n t to Z i m b a b w e a n d h e p o s e d
a s a d o c t o r a f t e r t h e y t o o k t h e – a ft e r th e Z i m b a b w e a n p o lic e a r r e s te d
M o y o , s h o t h i m i n th e l e g – o n th e le g a n d t h e n w e n t to th e a u th o r it i e s
t h e r e a n d in tr o d u c e d C a p t a i n M a l u le k e a s a d o c t o r w h o w o u ld w a n t t o
tr e a t M o y o in S o u t h A f r ic a . N o w t h e s e s t o r ie s …
CHAIRPERSON:

That was very strange.

S o m e b o d y is s h o t i n

Zi m b a b w e y o u s a y y o u a r e a d o c t o r y o u a r e in Z i m b a b w e b u t y o u a r e
t h e o n e w h o s a y s n o I w a n t t o t r e a t th is p a ti e n t i n S o u t h A f r i c a .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is h o w I g o t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e t h e r e n o t d o c t o r s in Zi m b a b w e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e s t o r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m t h a t is t h e s t o r y. J a .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o w h a t I d i d – fo r m e I d i d n o t
t a k e i t li g h tly. I s h a r e d th e i n fo r m a ti o n w it h th e p r o s e c u t o r a n d h o w I
p e r c e iv e d it I t h o u g h t a p a r t f r o m t h e a ll e g a ti o n o f h i m b e i n g s h o t o r t h e

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C a p t a i n M a lu l e k e p o s i n g a s t h e d o c t o r I t h o u g h t p r o b a b ly i t m i g h t h a v e
b e e n a n is s u e th a t w h e n h e a s s i s t e d th e Zi m b a b w e a n N a t io n a l h e w a s
r e a l ly r e t u r n i n g t h e f a v o u r. T h a t is w h y I to o k a b i t o f i n te r e s t o n t h e
s t o r y. I t h e n …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r K h u b a b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d I ju s t w a n t to

c la r i fy s o m e t h i n g .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u s a i d t h a t i t w a s t o ld to y o u b y t h i s m a n

t h a t C a p t a in M a l u l e k e h a d b e e n p a r t y o r w a s p r e s e n t w h e n th e – M r
10

Moyo was shot.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n h e p o s e d a s a d o c to r s a y i n g h e

w a n ts t o b r in g h i m t o S o u th A f r i c a f o r t r e a t m e n t .

But what happened

a ft e r t h a t t o h i m ? W h a t h a p p e n e d t o M r M o y o o n c e h e – o n c e t h e y g o t
h i m i n to S o u th A fr ic a ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e y s a i d w h e n h e c a m e in t o t h e
c o u n tr y th e n h e w a s a r r e s t e d .
o th e r c h a r g e s .

A n d th e n h e w a s m a d e t o f a c e th o s e

I d i d a n in v e s ti g a t io n a r o u n d t h a t b e c a u s e w h e n I

s h a r e d w i th A d v o c a t e M o s i n g h e a ls o t o o k s o m e i n te r e s t a n d h e t o ld m e
20

t h a t h e k n o w s t h a t a p r o s e c u to r w h o d e a l t w i t h M o y o ’s c a s e . A n d h e
d i d h is o w n i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d h e m a n a g e d t o g e t s o m e o f t h e
s t a te m e n ts r e la t in g to t h e c a s e s in v o lv in g M o y o a n d t h e n h e g a v e m e
t h e c o p i e s o f t h o s e s ta t e m e n ts a n d t h e n h e r e q u e s t e d m e t o g o t o
M u s i n a a n d c h e c k w h e t h e r h e w a s e v e r a d m i t te d th e r e o r tr e a te d th e r e
a n d a ls o r e q u e s t e d t h a t I n e e d t o m e e t w it h M o y o a n d ta k e h i s

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s t a te m e n t . J u s t t o f in d o u t w h e t h e r t h e r e is c o r r o b o r a t i o n . N o w I s e n t
m y i n v e s ti g a to r s to M u s i n a .

W e c o u ld n o t fi n d a n y r e c o r d .

Now I

r e q u e s t e d s o m e b o d y fr o m th e d e p a r t m e n t t o i n t e r v ie w M o y o w h ic h w a s
d o n e a n d a s t a te m e n t w a s o b t a i n e d . Th e r e w e r e s o m e h o w s i m il a r i t ie s
in t h e s to r y t h a t h e w a s s h o t b y Z i m b a b w e a n p o li c e b u t h e n e v e r m a d e
a n y i n d i c a t io n t h a t C a p ta i n M a l u le k e w a s t h e r e o r h e p o s e d a s a d o c to r
a n d s a i d i t is h is d o c to r. N o h e d i d n o t m a k e m e n ti o n o f th a t . N o w w h a
r e a l ly h a p p e n e d w a s th a t I h a d t o d o t h e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s to c h e c k –
g iv e n th e s t a t e m e n ts w h ic h I w a s h a n d e d b y A d v o c a te t o c h e c k w h e t h e r
10

C a p t a i n M a lu l e k e e v e r c r o s s e d a t a r o u n d t h e t i m e w h e n t h i s M o y o w a s
arrested.

And what I found was that he was around the border but

t h e r e is n o i n d ic a ti o n th a t h is c e ll p h o n e e v e r l o s t n e tw o r k w h e n h e w a s
o n t h e o t h e r s i d e . S o s o m e w h e r e s o m e h o w h e w a s a t t h e b o r d e r.

But

I c o u l d n o t p r o v e t h a t h e c r o s s e d t h e b o r d e r a n d w e n t t o Z i m . A n d th e
s t a te m e n t o f M o y o n e v e r g a v e a n y in d ic a ti o n t h a t h e w a s s e e n th a t
s id e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o j u s t to c l a r it y a n d t h e n w e w i ll d e a l w i t h

t h e – y o u r v a r i o u s r e p o r t s i n s o m e d e t a i l i n ti m e . D i d y o u i n c lu d e t h is
r e fe r e n c e t o M o y o i n th e f ir s t r e p o r t t h a t y o u s u b m i t t e d t o t h e N a ti o n a l
20

P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d i d . I d i d i n c lu d e i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d a f t e r – w a s th is b e f o r e o r a f t e r y o u

r e c e i v e d th e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I c a n n o t r e a lly r e m e m b e r

w h e t h e r it w a s a f te r o r b e f o r e b u t I r e m e m b e r i n t h e f ir s t o r J a n u a r y

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
r e p o r t it w a s i n c l u d e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i n th e la t e r r e p o r t w a s i t i n c lu d e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s n o t p a r t o f t h a t r e p o r t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h y w a s it n o t a p a r t o f th e s e c o n d

report?
MR

HUMBULANI

INNOCENT

KHUBA:

Now

when

we

d id

th e

evaluation…
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Or an amended report?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
10

O f t h a t d o c k e t w e r e a li s e d t h a t

w e c o u l d n o t r e a lly fi n d th e N e x u s t h e li n k b e t w e e n t h e a r r e s t o f M o y o
a n d t h e d e p o r t a ti o n o f th o s e Zi m b a b w e a n N a t io n a l s . S o w e fe l t t h a t i t
c a n n o t r e a lly b e p a r t o f t h a t . A n d I lo o k e d a t i t a n d s a y s I t h i n k I a g r e e
b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o e v id e n ti a l v a l u e o f t h a t in f o r m a t io n b e c a u s e t h e
li n k c o u l d n o t b e – b e m a d e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u a ls o s a id i n y o u r s t a te m e n t h e r e a t
p a r a g r a p h 4 2 th a t a f te r h e a r i n g th is v e r s io n fr o m t h e g e n tl e m a n fr o m
t h e E a s t e r n C a p e y o u a ls o a n a ly s e d C o l o n e l M a l u l e k e ’s l a p t o p .

What

w a s t h e r e s u l t o f t h a t a n a ly s is ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
20

T h e a n a l y s is w a s d o n e f o r th e

e n t ir e l a p t o p w h ic h m e a n s w e r e c o v e r e d b o t h p e r s o n a l a n d e v i d e n t ia l
m a t e r i a l.

Now some of the things that we recovered or managed to

m ir r o r i m a g e w a s th e s to r y o f M o y o . A n d I w a s in c o n s t a n t d is c u s s i o n
w i t h th e p e r s o n w h o w a s d o in g t h a t .

A n d I s a i d p r i n t o u t e v e r y th in g

r e g a r d in g M o y o . A n d t h e n s h e w a s a b le t o d o t h a t. B u t i t n e v e r g a v e
a n i n d ic a ti o n th a t i n f o r m a ti o n i t ju s t t a lk a b o u t M o y o w it h – w a n t e d . I t

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d i d n o t g iv e a le a d t o s a y t h a t h e w a s r e q u ir e d t o g o th e r e a n d t a k e h i m
o r h e s p o k e w i th t h e Z i m b a b w e a n N a ti o n a l – I c o u l d n o t fi n d s o m e th i n g
o f s u c h a – t h e y w e r e – i t w a s m e n ti o n e d i n t h o s e d o c u m e n t s t h a t M o y o
w a s w a n te d .
CHAIRPERSON:

F o r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e t e n e s s w h a t w a s M r M o y o ’s

name?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I n e e d to – t o h a v e t h e

s t a te m e n t to g e t t h e f u ll n a m e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
10

M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

I o n ly k n o w h i m a s M o y o a n d I

r e fe r h i m a s M o y o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h b e c a u s e I m a y – I d i d n o t p ic k u p t h e n a m e o n t h e
– o n y o u r a ff id a v i t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d ju s t – i t i s b e t te r t o m e n ti o n h is n a m e a s w e ll .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

S o t h a t o n e k n o w s – t h e r e a r e m a n y M o y o ’s j u s t a s

t h e r e a r e m a n y Z o n d o ’s .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s w e w il l …
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

N o I t h i n k w e c a n b e a b le to g e t

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : To g e t t h e n a m e .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

The name.

I think the reason

w h y I u s e d t h e n a m e M o y o it i s h o w w e r e f e r r e d to h i m i n o u r

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d is c u s s io n s a n d h o w h e w a s r e fe r r e d to b y W e r k s m a n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o i t i s j u s t t h a t it is i m p o r ta n t to k n o w

w h e t h e r i t w a s A l b e r t M o y o , J o h n M o y o , J a b u la n i M o y o , S i p h o M o y o o r
whoever – whatever the name was.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Mr Khuba at paragraph 45 on page 13 of your
s t a te m e n t y o u r e fe r to a f u r t h e r m e e t in g y o u h a d w i t h G e n e r a l N t le m e z a
c o u l d y o u p l e a s e te ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I h a d a m e e ti n g w it h h i m w h e r e
w e d is c u s s e d a b o u t M a d i lo n g a a n d I t h in k h e i s th e o n e w h o s t a r t e d
t h a t d i s c u s s io n .

A n d I th e n h a d to c o n fi n e t o h i m t h a t I w a s r e a ll y,

r e a l ly u n e a s y a b o u t h is s a fe ty. B e c a u s e t h a t w a s a ft e r t h e … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a d il o n g a ’s s a fe ty ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e t h a t w a s a f te r t h e – t h e
a r ti c l e o n S u n d a y Ti m e s . A n d t h e n h e t o l d m e t h a t h e h a d tr a n s f e r r e d
C o l o n e l M a d i lo n g a to B u r g e r s f o r t. A n d h e e v e n i n d i c a t e d th a t C o l o n e l
20

M a d i l o n g a w a s h is m a n I m u s t n o t w o r r y a b o u t t h a t .

A n d I s ti ll

r e m e m b e r I c o u l d n o t ta k e h is w o r d f o r i t b e c a u s e a f te r t h a t I – I th i n k i t
w a s s o m e f e w w e e k s t h e n I d r o v e s tr a i g h t t o B u r g e r s f o r t m y s e l f a n d I
met with him just to find out how he was doing.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a d il o n g a ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

A n d I e v e n s p o k e w i th h i m

b e c a u s e I h a d a d is c u s s i o n w i th M o s in g a b o u t A d v o c a te M o s i n g a b o u t
t h e is s u e o f w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n . B u t w h e n I s p o k e w it h h i m h e s a i d n o
it is f i n e , i t i s a b i g c o p h e k n o w s w h a t h e i s d o i n g . T h e n I le f t a n d I
c a m e b a c k a n d th a t is w h a t I d is c u s s e d w h e n I s p o k e t o – to – t o
G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a . B u t a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ti m e th e r e w a s a n is s u e t h a t
b e c a u s e t h e p o s i ti o n i n th e d e p a r t m e n t i n I P I D w a s v a c a n t . Th e
p o s i ti o n o f a n E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r.
10

A n d h e h a d m a d e m e n t io n e a r li e r

that …
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s i t v a c a n t b e c a u s e s o m e b o d y h a d b e e n – w a s

suspension, is that what you mean or was it vacant because somebody
h a d r e s i g n e d o r h a d b e e n d is m is s e d a n d it h a d n o t – th e p o s i ti o n h a d
n o t b e e n fi ll e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o i t w a s – I th in k t h e p e r s o n

w h o w a s a p p o in t e d fo r th e p o s it i o n h a d r e s i g n e d a n d i t w a s – i t is
Fr a n c o is B e u k m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: And that is why Ms Koekie Mbeki
20

w a s a c ti n g . B u t w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h a t th e r e w a s a t i m e w h e n s h e w a s
n o t c o m i n g t o t h e o ff ic e a n d I h e a r d t h a t s h e h a d t a k e n a n o ff ic e
s o m e w h e r e b u t s h e c o n ti n u e d p e r f o r m i n g th e w o r k o f I P I D .

Now he

too…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y l e t m e j u s t i n te r r u p t y o u . J u s t s o m e t h i n g
t h a t I w a n te d t o a s k a b o u t M s M b e k i . P r i o r t o h e r a c t in g a s E x e c u t iv e

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D ir e c t o r w h e r e w a s s h e ? W a s s h e p a r t o f I P I D ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

She was part of IPID and she

w a s H e a d o f L e g a l S e r v ic e s w h ic h i s o n e p r o g r a m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S h e w a s a P r o g r a m M a n a g e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh just…
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t r e s p o n s i b l e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r l e g a l m a t t e r s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a f o r l e g a l m a tt e r s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y n o t h a t is f in e . A n d a f t e r s h e h a d s to p p e d

a c ti n g a s E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r d id s h e c o n ti n u e a s H e a d o f L e g a l
S e r v ic e s o r d i d s h e le a v e th e – d id s h e l e a v e I P I D ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Now when she - she stopped

A c ti n g s h e w a s n o l o n g e r i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e w a s a t i m e w h e n s h e w a s
n o t i n t h e o ffic e .
20

I think if it was not one month.

It might be two

m o n th s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Where we were told that she

does not deal with anything because she is working somewhere …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t s h e o n ly s i g n e d f i n a n c ia l

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
d o c u m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

O k a y.

I a m s o r r y.

I i n te r r u p t e d w h i le

y o u w e r e c o n t i n u in g . Yo u m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e f o r g o t t e n w h a t y o u w e r e
d e a li n g w it h i n w h ic h c a s e Ms W e n tz e l …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Remind you.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o I d i d n o t fo r g e t. I w a s t a lk i n g
a b o u t m y d is c u s s i o n s I h a d w i t h G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a . A t t h a t ti m e h e h a d
t o l d m e t h a t h e w a s g o in g to b e a p p o i n t e d a s a n E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r o f
10

I P I D a n d I w a s v e r y h a p p y b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t I w il l b e a b le t o w o r k w i th
s o m e b o d y w h o m I k n o w b e c a u s e I w a s w o r k i n g w i th h i m a t a p r o v i n c ia l
le v e l.
T h e n o n th a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y h e s a id h e w a n te d t o te ll m e th a t
t h e p o l i ti c a l p r i n c i p a l h a v e c h a n g e d th e ir m i n d . H e i s n o l o n g e r t o j o i n
I P I D . H e w il l b e j o in in g th e H a w k s .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w l e t u s tr y a n d g e t t h e ti m e fr a m e s o r r a t h e r t h e

ti m e . A s e n s e o f w h e n t h i s w a s . I t a p p e a r s fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g
t h a t th e ti m e w h e n h e t o ld y o u t h a t h e w a s g o in g to b e a p p o i n t e d a s
E x e c u t iv e D ir e c to r o f I P I D w a s s e p a r a te fr o m th e ti m e w h e n h e to ld y o u
20

that he was going to be appointed as the Head of the Hawks or
s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t . T h o s e a r e tw o d i ff e r e n t o c c a s i o n s . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Those

were

o c c a s i o n s b e c a u s e t h e f ir s t o n e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Wa s a b o u t I P I D .

Page 67 of 191

two

d i ff e r e n t

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ar o u n d w h e n w a s t h a t in t e r m s o f th e y e a r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : E v e r y t h in g to o k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e a m o n th .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : E v e r y t h in g to o k p l a c e i n 2 0 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: 2013?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r m o r e o r l e s s w h e r e

about in the year?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i n t e r m s o f
10

- I h a v e m o n th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I n - i n t e r m s o f m y m e e t in g s w i th
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W it h h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o m e w h e r e it w a s S e p t e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

20

Sometimes

it

was

October

a r o u n d ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: 2013?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

T h a t w a s w h e n h e t o ld y o u th a t h e w a s

g o i n g t o b e a p p o i n te d a s Ex e c u ti v e D i r e c t o r o f I P I D ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e n w h e n h e t o l d y o u t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o b e

a p p o i n t e d a s t h e H e a d o f t h e H a w k s a r o u n d w h e n w a s th a t o r i s i t
a r o u n d t h e s a m e t i m e - s a m e m o n th ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e w a s - t h e r e w a s n o t r e a ll y
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l o n g ti m e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A b i g l a p s e o f t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e w a s n o b ig la p s e o f t i m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t m a y h a v e b e e n a m a tt e r o f d i ffe r e n t w e e k s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t m a y b e d i ff e r e n t w e e k s o r ja

d i ff e r e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i ff e r e n t m o n th s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W e e k s p r o b a b l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a , p r o b a b ly ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. N o w w i t h r e g a r d t o th e f ir s t o n e y o u y o u h a v e p u t it v e r y c l e a r ly th a t h e s a i d h e w a s g o in g t o b e a p p o i n t e d
a s t h e E x e c u tiv e D i r e c t o r o f I P I D . N o w I ju s t w a n t y o u t o b e s u r e t h a t
20

that is how he put it and that he did not say he was going to be
a p p ly i n g f o r t h a t p o s i t io n . D id h e p u t i t l ik e …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e …
CHAIRPERSON: I am going to be appointed?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

He

a p p lic a ti o n .

Page 69 of 191

never

put

the

word

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

He

t a lk e d

about

p o l it ic a l

p r i n c i p a ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t t h e y w a n te d h i m t o h e a d

IPID.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e d i d n o t ta lk a b o u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e i s s u e o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f m a k i n g a n a p p lic a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W e d i d n o t e v e n t a l k a b o u t th e

advert.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th e c lo s i n g , t h e o p e n i n g w h a t

d o e s i t s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W e n e v e r s p o k e a b o u t t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t w a s in r e g a r d t o t h e I P I D p o s i t io n ?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

That

was

regard

to

IPID

p o s i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n w h e n h e t a l k e d to y o u o n th e o t h e r o c c a s i o n
a b o u t h i m c o m in g t o th e H a w k s o r b e i n g a p p o i n t e d t o t h e H a w k s h o w
d i d h e p u t it ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

He - he said he wanted - it - it

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w a s w h e n w e w e r e d is c u s s i n g t h e is s u e o f t h e r e p o r t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e h e in d i c a t e d h o w fa r

a r e y o u w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e n d i ti o n i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e n d it i o n in v e s t i g a t io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d th e n I w o u l d - I w o u l d t e ll

h i m t h a t I a m l e f t w i th a f e w s ta t e m e n ts b u t I w o u l d n o t r e a ll y g o i n t o
10

d e t a i l i n te r m s o f i n d iv id u a l s t a te m e n ts w e r e n o t p o l ic e o ff ic e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

M a i n ly w h e n t h e p e r s o n w h o m I

w a n t e d to o b t a i n a s t a t e m e n t w a s a p o li c e o ffi c e r.

I w o u ld c o n f in e t o

h i m b e c a u s e I k n e w t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o a s s is t m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o t h a t i s w h e n h e i n d ic a t e d t o

m e t h a t y o u r r e p o r t i s - t h e o n e t h a t i s h o l d i n g m e fr o m b e i n g a p p o i n t e d
there.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is w h a t h e t o l d m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m a n d w h a t d i d y o u s a y w h e n y o u h e a r d th is ? W a s
t h e r e a f u r t h e r d is c u s s i o n a r o u n d th is is s u e o f y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n
h o l d i n g h i m b a c k f r o m b e in g a p p o i n te d to t h e H a w k s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t - n o t r e a ll y b e c a u s e I f o u n d
it v e r y, v e r y s t r a n g e b u t f o r m e i t n e v e r s h o o k m e o u t o f h i m to s a y I d o

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
n o t w a n t to t a l k t o h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I j u s t fe l t - i t i s li k e a g o o d

fr i e n d w h o s p o k e s o m e t h i n g w e i r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Yo u a r e s t il l a t t a c h e d t o th e

p e r s o n . I j u s t s a i d - I ju s t k i n d o r r e a l ly s a i d i g n o r e b u t i t s t a y e d i n m y
mind.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ay e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h e n h e s a id t h a t I t o l d h i m t h a t
I a m l e f t w it h w h a t - I n e e d t o g e t h o l d o f t h e s e p e o p le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u d id n o t f o c u s o n w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o . I d id n o t f o c u s o n w h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u n o t e d i t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I n o t e d it , ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . S o - s o y e s c o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr K h u b a fr o m y o u r s ta t e m e n t i t a p p e a r s t h a t

20

t h e r e w e r e a t le a s t th r e e d i ff e r e n t c o n v e r s a t io n s a n d n o w f r o m y o u r
e v i d e n c e i t is s o u n d in g l ik e t h in g s w e r e h a p p e n i n g i n t w o s e p a r a te
c o n v e r s a ti o n s . S o c a n - i f w e c a n j u s t g o b a c k to y o u r s t a te m e n t a n d i f
y o u c a n ju s t c l a r i f y a s t o w h ic h is t h e c o r r e c t - I d o n o t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y - m a y b e t h e w a y to p u t i t M s W e n t z e l is n o t
t o p u t i t l ik e y o u , y o u g iv i n g h i m l e a d i n g q u e s ti o n s l ik e t h a t .

Page 72 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

Were there any other occasions when you had

in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a i n r e g a r d to y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Te l l m e a b o u t th e m .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
h o u s e w a tc h i n g t e l e v is i o n .

In O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 I w a s i n m y

Th a t w a s a f te r I h a d a lr e a d y g iv e n

G e n e r a l N t le m e z a m y w if e ’s n u m b e r u p o n h is r e q u e s t b e c a u s e h e
in d i c a t e d th a t h e d o e s n o t w a n t t o c a l l m e d i r e c t ly b e c a u s e h e t h o u g h t
10

p r o b a b ly

there

were

-

p e o p le

were

lis t e n i n g

to

my

t e le p h o n e

c o n v e r s a ti o n . I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is s t ill in 2 0 1 3 t o w a r d s th e e n d o f 2 0 1 3 ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a . I t w a s 2 0 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o o n a c e r t a i n o c c a s io n h e a s k e d y o u t o g iv e o n a c e r t a i n o c c a s i o n y o u g a v e h i m y o u r w if e ’s n u m b e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t h is r e q u e s t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A t h is r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B e c a u s e h e w a n te d t o c a ll y o u o n y o u r w i fe ’s

number?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t . W e l l m a y b e fi n a l is e t h a t. D i d h e - y o u
s a i d h e t h o u g h t h e d id n o t w a n t to p h o n e y o u o n y o u r c e ll - c e l l - o n
your phone because …?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e h e s a id t o m e t h e r e

Page 73 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
m i g h t b e p e o p l e w h o a r e li s t e n i n g to u s .

He does not want to

c o m p r o m is e o u r d i s c u s s i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Th e n I s ti ll r e m e m b e r h e s h o w e d
m e a - a s m a l l c e l l p h o n e . Yo u k n o w t h e o l d ty p e o n e s t h a t d o n o t h a v e
t h e in t e r n e t a n d y o u c a n j u s t r e c e iv e o r m a k e c a l l a n d h e s a y s h e
a d v is e d m e t o - to g e t o n e a n d h e e v e n t o l d m e t h a t i f I g o to a
p a r t ic u l a r s t o r e i t i s o n l y 1 5 0 .
N o w t h e r e a s o n w h y I c o u ld n o t t a k e th e a d v ic e .
10

I am not

g o o d i n - i n j u g g li n g . I d o n o t w a n t to c a r r y t w o p h o n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o t h a t is w h y I - I s a i d i t - it

w o u ld b e v e r y d i ffi c u l t f o r m e . T h a t i s w h e n h e s a i d t o m e i f h e c o u l d
u s e my w if e ’s n u m b e r. I g a v e h i m m y w i f e ’s n u m b e r. I a ls o i n fo r m e d
m y w i fe .

S o o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 t h a t is w h e n h e -

m y w i fe c a ll e d - t o l d m e t h a t ( A f r ic a n l a n g u a g e ) is a t t h e g a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w h e n y o u s a y o n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r d a y y o u a r e n o t
m e a n i n g th e d a y o n w h i c h y o u g a v e h i m y o u r w i f e ’s n u m b e r. Yo u m e a n
another day now?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C o n ti n u e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n a n o t h e r d a y y o u r - y o u r w i f e s a i d t o y o u ( A fr ic a n
la n g u a g e ) is a t t h e g a te ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t a k e i t fr o m th e r e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And she gave me the phone to

s p e a k w i th h i m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d h e s a id t o m e I m u s t i n s tr u c t
t h e s e c u r i ty to o p e n fo r h i m b e c a u s e h e h a d s o m e th in g t o t e l l m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u r w i f e w a s s a y i n g ( A fr ic a n
la n g u a g e ) is a t t h e g a t e w a s b e c a u s e w e ll o n e w h o w a s ( A f r ic a n
la n g u a g e ) ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I

referred

him

as

( A fr ic a n

la n g u a g e ) …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And

my

w if e k n e w h i m a s

( Af r ic a n la n g u a g e ) o n t h e b a s is t h a t e v e n w e a r e d o i n g s h o p p in g a n d
w e w ill m e e t h i m w e w o u l d - I w o u l d n o t s a y g e n e r a l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I w o u ld s a y ( A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e )

a n d th e n w e w i ll g i v e e a c h o t h e r h u g s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d a f t e r th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And

my

w if e k n e w h i m a s

( Af r ic a n l a n g u a g e ) ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d ( A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e ) i s a te r m f o r s h o w i n g r e s p e c t
f o r - f o r r e s p e c t ( A fr ic a n l a n g u a g e ) . I t i s li k e g e n tl e m a n o r … ?

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M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t i s - it is l ik e g e n tl e m a n b u t i t

is a X h o s a w o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is l ik e s i r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t is li k e s ir. F o r m e I t o o k i t a s
s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s s ir ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. It - it shows respect.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : R e s p e c t, ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h a t i s h o w y o u c a l l e d h i m …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th a t i s h o w h e c a l le d m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u r w i f e a ls o t h e n c a l le d h i m t h a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. S o o n t h is o c c a s i o n h e h a d p h o n e d t h a t
is ( A fr ic a n la n g u a g e ) h a d p h o n e d o n y o u r w i f e ’s p h o n e a n d s a i d I a m a t
t h e g a t e a n d y o u w i fe c o n v e y e d t h a t m e s s a g e to y o u a n d g a v e y o u h e r
p h o n e t o ta lk to h i m ?

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t a n d w h a t d i d h e s a y to y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e s a i d h e h a d s o m e t h i n g t o t e l l
m e . I s h o u l d i n s tr u c t th e s e c u r i ty g u a r d s t o a l lo w h i m i n b e c a u s e i t is
a n e s ta t e . I th e n t o l d t h e s e c u r i t y g u a r d s . T h e n h e c a m e i n . W h e n h e
w a s i n t h e n h e to l d m e a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g h e h a d . T h a t h e w a s a t th e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
a ir p o r t a n d h e m e t G e n e r a l M d lu li …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d h e t o l d m e t h a t h e w a s s e n t
by General Mdluli to me.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e G e n e r a l M d lu li th a t h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o w a s i t

G e n e r a l R ic h a r d M d lu li o r d i d y o u n o w k n o w w h o h e w a s r e f e r r in g to ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I k n e w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Who was he referring to?

W h ic h M d l u l i w a s h e

r e fe r r i n g t o ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : R ic h a r d M d lu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . W h a t d i d h e s a y a b o u t h i m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e s a i d h e m e t h i m a t t h e a ir p o r t
…
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d I s ti ll r e m e m b e r s o m e t h i n g

t h a t I e v e n o m it t e d t o p u t i n m y s ta t e m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e h e s a id t h a t m a n is

g o i n g t o b e y o u r n e x t Pr e s i d e n t . Th a t i s w h a t h e s a i d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta lk i n g a b o u t G e n e r a l M d l u l i ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : G e n e r a l M d lu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o I - I j u s t s m il e d a n d l a u g h e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J u s t - j u s t l a u g h a b o u t i t .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: And General Mdluli was somebody that you knew?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t p e r s o n a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t p e r s o n a l ly. Yo u j u s t k n e w h i s n a m e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N e v e r m e t p h y s ic a lly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Yo u k n e w t h e n a m e a n d t h e f a c e o r j u s t th e

name/
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n a m e a n d t h e f a c e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s . S o h e s a i d t h a t m a n w i ll b e …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n e x t P r e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n e x t Pr e s id e n t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e n a f t e r t h a t h e to l d m e t h a t

h e is t h e o n e w h o s e n t h i m t o m e a n d h e - i t is a p p r e c ia t in g t h e w o r k
t h a t I a m d o in g a n d h e s a id i f I a m a n y h o w s e e i n g a s u s p i c i o u s v e h ic le
f o ll o w i n g m e w h i le d r i v i n g t o P r e t o r ia o r i n P r e t o r i a o r c o m in g b a c k t o
L i m p o p o o r a n y w h e r e I m u s t a c ti v e G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a . H e h a s b e e n p u t
20

t h e r e t o - t o a s s is t m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d w h e n h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t I - I
ju s t s a id o k a y a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t t o o e x c i t e d a b o u t t h i s - a ll t h is ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I - I was not excited.

Page 78 of 191

In f a c t I

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
was troubled.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e tr o u b le d j a .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w a s - I w a s tr o u b l e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d I j u s t f e lt b e c a u s e I n e v e r

c o n s i d e r e d m y o w n s a f e t y t o b e in tr o u b l e . I w o r k e d in K Z N . T h a t is
w h e n I f e l t t h a t m y l if e w a s i n - i n - r e a lly u n d e r th r e a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

B u t w h e n I w a s i n v e s ti g a ti n g

r e n d i ti o n I n e v e r a n d - a n d m o r e s o b e c a u s e I k n e w t h e p e o p le I w a s
in v e s t i g a t in g . I k n e w G e n e r a l S i b iy a . I k n e w G e n e r a l D r a m a t. I k n e w
C a p t a i n M a l u le k e . I n e v e r th o u g h t th e y w e r e a n y h o w c a p a b l e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o n o w I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u t h o u g h t t h e y w e r e n o t c a p a b l e o f p u tt i n g y o u r li f e
in d a n g e r o r a n y t h i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ja.

I never thought they were

c a p a b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is w h y I j u s t f e l t t h a t i t

s e e m s a s th e y w e r e i m p ly in g t h a t m y l i f e w a s i n d a n g e r o r I n e e d
a n d / o r w i th o u t t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n I w i ll r e a l ly s u ff e r h a r m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t t h e tr u th o f t h e m a t te r is t h a t
I n e v e r r e a l ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t f e e l t h r e a t e n e d in a n y w a y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I n e v e r f e l t th r e a te n e d , ja .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Huh-uh.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N e v e r fe l t t h r e a t e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - s o i n r e s p o n s e t o w h a t h e h a d to s a y y o u r

r e s p o n s e w a s l ik e w h a t? O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I j u s t - I j u s t s a i d o k a y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
t h i n k t h a t is m y t e n d e n c y.

Most - most of the time and I

When we are having a very relaxed

d is c u s s io n I u s e o k a y a s a d i s m is s iv e r a t h e r th a n …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. As agreeing?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : R a t h e r t h a n a s a g r e e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th e n a f t e r th a t h e - h e a s k e d
me about the case again to say what is it that …
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o - I a m s o r r y.

When he said that General Mdluli

h a d s a i d to - h a d a s k e d h i m t o t e ll y o u t h a t s h o u l d y o u n o t ic e a
s u s p i c i o u s c a r f o l lo w in g y o u s h o u ld a c tiv a te G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a .

What

d i d h e m e a n ? D i d h e m e a n y o u m u s t p h o n e G e n e r a l N t le m e z a ? W h a t
did he mean?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I took as if he meant that

G e n e r a l N t le m e z a w i ll b e t h e o n e w h o is t a k in g c a r e o f m y s a fe ty.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Who would protect you?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

Ye s .

S o t h e - j u s t c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e

c o n v e r s a ti o n t h e n b e t w e e n y o u r s e lf a n d G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ja.

T h e n h e s ta r t e d to a s k

about a …
CHAIRPERSON: The case?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . T h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d th a t i s

w h e n I i n d ic a te d th a t I - I s t il l h a v e to …
CHAIRPERSON: He was asking how far you - you were?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ja.

W h a t - w h a t i s t h a t is

d e l a y i n g t h e fi n a li s a t io n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th e n I s a id I s t il l h a v e - I a m

b a t t li n g t o g e t h o l d o f G e n e r a l L e b e y a b e c a u s e h e h a d s i g n e d o n e o f
t h e s u c c e s s r e p o r t. T h e r e w a s h i s - h is s i g n a t u r e a n d s o m e c o m m e n ts
t h e r e a n d I a ls o in f o r m e d h i m t h a t I h a d r e q u e s t e d a w a r n i n g s t a te m e n t
20

fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t . N o w a t th a t ti m e I d id n o t h a v e G e n e r a l L e b e y a ’s
n u m b e r. H e is t h e o n e w h o g o t i t fo r m e .
CHAIRPERSON: He gave it to you there and then?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e a n d th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d - n o I d o n o t t h i n k h e …

Page 81 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: He had …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J u s t p r o d u c e d t h e n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e m i g h t h a v e m a d e s o m e c a l ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e - o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t w h a t I r e m e m b e r v i v i d l y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I s t h a t h e l o o k e d f o r t h e n u m b e r
and he gave it to me.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And

then

I

had

to

c a ll

General Lebeya …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N C E N T K H U B A : A n d I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i le - w h il e G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a w a s t h e r e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And I put him on an open

speaker …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d t h a t is w h e n I i n d ic a te d to

h i m t h a t a y e G e n e r a l I h a v e b e e n l o o k in g f o r y o u …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d t h e n h e s a id to m e I c a n

c o m e t o P r e to r i a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w i ll b e a b le t o h a v e a m e e t in g
with him …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d t h e n i t - i t w a s f in e . I t w a s
c o n c l u d e d t h a t w a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A f te r

that

I

served

G e n e r a l N t le m e z a w i t h r e fr e s h m e n t a n d h e l e f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k t h a t is th e r i g h t t i m e to t a k e t h e l u n c h
adjournment.

W e a r e a t n in e m i n u t e s p a s t o n e .

W e a r e g o in g t o

a d j o u r n a n d r e s u m e a t 1 0 p a s t tw o . W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e g o i n g t o d i s p o s e o f t h e t h e e a r li e r m o t io n

m a t t e r b e f o r e w e c o n t in u e w i th t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r K h u b a .
20

Mr Petersen

d o y o u w a n t t o d ir e c t m y a t t e n t io n t o w h e r e t h e r e l e v a n t a m e n d m e n t i s .
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

Ye s C h a ir, in p a r a g r a p h t w o t h e w o r d s h a v e

been added,
“ O u g h t t o e n s u r e f a ir n e s s to a n y i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n ” .
T h a t ’s th e f ir s t c h a n g e . T h a t w a s a d d r e s s e d d u r i n g th e
p r o c e e d i n g s t h is m o r n i n g a n d t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h t h r e e h a s b e e n

Page 83 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
in s e r t e d m a k i n g t h e o l d p a r a g r a p h t h r e e n o w p a r a g r a p h f o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t w o is – i s i t a c o m p le t e l y n e w o r d e r o r i s i t a n
a m e n d e d v e r s io n o f a n o ld o r d e r ?
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

P a r a g r a p h tw o h a s b e e n a m e n d e d b y a d d i n g

t h e w o r d s a t th e e n d , a f t e r N a i d o o ’s e v i d e n c e t h e w o r d s ,
“ O u g h t t o e n s u r e f a ir n e s s to a n y i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s ” .
T h a t is th e o n ly c h a n g e u p to t h a t p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : R i g h t a n d th e n y o u … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h e n w e ’v e i n s e r t e d a p a r a g r a p h t h r e e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t ’s a c o m p l e t e ly n e w t h r e e ?
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h a t f o l lo w s t h e g u id a n c e g iv e n t h is m o r n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t is i t a c o m p le t e l y n e w t h r e e ?
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s i t ’s a c o m p l e te ly n e w p a r a g r a p h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

A n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h f o u r i s th e o l d p a r a g r a p h

three without any change.
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t r e p e a t t h a t p l e a s e a b o u t fo u r, j u s t r e p e a t w h a t

you have just said about four?
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I t ’s e x a c t ly th e s a m e a s t h e p r e v io u s t h r e e , i t ’s
20

ju s t n o w n u m b e r e d fo u r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h e i n t r o d u c t o r y p a r t o f p a r a g r a p h o n e is i t

a c c u r a te t o s a y w h e n h e g i v e s e v i d e n c e a t a n y h e a r i n g o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n in t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s i n w h i c h h e w i ll b e g iv i n g e v i d e n c e ?
ADV ROB PET ERSEN:

B e f o r e I r e s p o n d I n e e d t o b e q u i te s u r e th a t

I’ m u n d e r s ta n d i n g y o u .

Page 84 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h e p a r t th a t I’ m c o n c e r n e d a b o u t i s a t a n y

h e a r in g o f th e C o m m i s s i o n , n a m e ly c o u l d i t b e s a id t h a t h e w i ll b e
g iv i n g e v id e n c e a t h e a r i n g o f th e C o m m i s s io n w h e n h e ’s g i v i n g
e v i d e n c e a w a y fr o m t h is v e n u e ?
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : W o u l d i t b e s a t is fa c t o r y t o s a y w h e n h e a t t e n d s
t o g iv e e v id e n c e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n o r w h e n h e g i v e s e v i d e n c e t o t h e
Commission?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I w a s th i n k i n g m o r e a b o u t w h e n h e g i v e s e v i d e n c e
to the Commission.
10

A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : B u t w h e n h e g iv e s t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a a n d I ’ m c r o s s in g o u t t h e f ir s t w o r d s i n t h e f ir s t

li n e , n a m e l y, “ t h e fo ll o w i n g m e a s u r e s s h a l l b e t a k e n ” , I j u s t s t a r t w i t h to
e n s u r e t h a t a n d t h e n d e l e t e th e c o m m a a f t e r t h e b r a c k e t w h e r e i t s a y s
t h e A c t a n d t h e n d e l e t e , “ a t t e n d s t o ” s o i t s h o u ld r e a d ,
“ To

ensure

that when

blah

blah

g iv e s e v i d e n c e

to

the

Commission”,
S o w e t a k e o u t h e a r i n g to t h e C o m m is s i o n .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : W o u ld i t b e o k a y t o k e e p th e c o m m a a f t e r t h e
b r a c k e te d , th e A c t b e c a u s e t h a t ’s a s e p a r a t e p h r a s e , w h o is a p r o t e c t e d
20

person.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h I o v e r l o o k e d t h e c o m m a b e f o r e w h o , e a r li e r to

ensure when…[intervenes].
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : S o i f y o u c o n t e n d t o h a v e tw o c o m m a s .
CHAIRPERSON: No I think you’re right we keep the comma that I said
we must take out, yes we keep that comma .

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A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : S o I t h in k t h a t is c le a r i f I c a n j u s t r e a d i t b a c k
t o y o u to m a k e s u r e t h a t I h a v e y o u r c h a n g e s ,
“ To e n s u r e th a t w h e n L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l N a i d o o , N a i d o o w h o
is a p r o te c t e d p e r s o n a s d e f in e d in t h e w i t n e s s p r o te c t i o n A c t
11 2 o f 1 9 9 8 th e A c t , g i v e s e v i d e n c e to t h e C o m m i s s i o n ” ,
A n d t h e n i t ’s n o t c h a n g e d a ft e r t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h e n i t ’s n o t c h a n g e d a f t e r t h a t .

Th e n w h e n I

r e a d , e a r li e r o n t h e p a r a g r a p h s I t h i n k e v e r y t h i n g w a s f in e .

W h e r e is

t h e p a r t t h a t t a lk s a b o u t t h e r o o m , r e m e m b e r w h e n I s a id I g a in e d th e
10

i m p r e s s io n a s if th e o r d e r n e c e s s a r i ly c o n t e m p l a te d t h a t t h e r o o m f r o m
w h ic h y o u ’ d g iv e e v i d e n c e w o u ld b e i n t h e s a m e b u il d in g .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : I t h i n k i t’s 1 . 2 t h a t y o u m a y h a v e h a d i n m i n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S h o u l d w e s a y, a s e p a r a te l o c a ti o n , h o w d o e s t h a t

sound?
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

A n d t h e n k e e p – c o u ld w e k e e p ( p r o te c te d

w i t n e s s r o o m) b e c a u s e t h a t r u n s t h e n r i g h t th r o u g h t h e o r d e r ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll s h o u l d n ’ t w e s a y, p r o t e c t e d w i tn e s s l o c a ti o n , i f

w e s a y l o c a ti o n th e n w h a t I ’ m h a v i n g i n m in d is I w o u l d r e a d it b u t y o u
c a n s ti ll h a v e i t r e p r i n te d o n t h e ty p e d v e r s io n , h o w d o e s t h a t s o u n d .
20

I n o t h e r w o r d s , w e w o u ld s a y, p r o te c t e d l o c a ti o n t h r o u g h o u t ?
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

I’ m j u s t c h e c k i n g C h a ir, I t h i n k t h a t w il l b e

a lr i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : J u s t c h e c k in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I t a k e i t l o c a ti o n w o u l d i n c lu d e r o o m .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h a t b e fi n e ?
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: That would be fine.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay so then – and I want to look at two, I think

w h e r e w e s a y, m a y b e v a r ie d d o w e s a y v a r i e d o r a m e n d e d o r a d d e d t o
e v e n t h o u g h v a r i e d c o v e r s e v e r y th i n g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Mr v a r i e s w a s v e r y … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u

know

some

of

th e s e

things

you

want

t o … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : W e l l i t ’s y o u r o r d e r C h a ir, o b v i o u s l y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I t h i n k j u s t … [ i n te r v e n e s ].
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : It s e e m s to m e t h a t v a r i e d c o v e r s e v e r y t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o i t d o e s b u t I th i n k I w o u ld p r e fe r t o h a v e a d d e d t o
– a m e n d e d c a n m a y b e g o o u t b u t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ].
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: How about varied or added to or supplemented?
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe amended or supplemented.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : M a y b e a m e n d e d o r s u p p le m e n t e d ?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k t h a t ’s – I l ik e t h a t m a y b e a m e n d e d o r

s u p p l e m e n t e d j a a n d t h e n I m u s t j u s t l o o k a t th r e e . I th i n k le t u s s a y i f
c o m m o n h i s o p i n io n th a t i s n e c e s s a r y t o e n s u r e a n d i n t h r e e w e s a y
n o t h i n g i n t h is o r d e r p r e c l u d e s t h e g r a n ti n g b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f a n
o r d e r m e r o m o t u o r o n a p p l ic a ti o n b y a p e r s o n w h o is o r m a y b e
i m p l ic a t e d b y th e e v i d e n c e o f N a i d o o a l lo w in g th a t p e r s o n t o h a v e s ig h t

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o f h a v i n g t o h a v e b e e n s h o w n a p h o t o g r a p h o f h i m w h ic h h a s b e e n
a p p r o v e d b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n f o r t h e p u r p o s e p r o v i d e d th a t in th e c a s e
o f a n a p p l ic a ti o n b y a n o t h e r p e r s o n [ I n a u d i b l e - C h a ir p e r s o n r e a d in g t o
h i m s e l f ] . I ’ m i n c li n e d t o s t o p a t p u r p o s e a n d d e l e te t h e p r o v id e d p a r t .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Yo u w a n t to le a v e t h a t o u t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o n t h e b a s is th a t w h e n t h e y a p p l y, o b v io u s ly t h e y
k n o w t h a t th e y n e e d t o m o ti v a t e a n d i f t h e y h a v e t o c h o o s e b e t w e e n
p ic t u r e a n d h a v e s ig h t o f , t h e y w o u l d k n o w w h y t h a t p a r t ic u l a r o n e .
What do you think?
10

ADV ROB PETERSEN:

I’ m c o n c e r n e d i t d o e s s e e m t o m e th a t t h e r e

m a y b e a r e s p o n s e to t h is o r d e r o f m a n y a p p l ic a t i o n s w h ic h a r e n o t
s o u n d ly m o t iv a te d t h a t y o u w o u ld th e n h a v e t o d e a l w i t h a n d th e
p r o v i s o is in t e n d e d t o ju s t m a k e i t c le a r t h a t i t’s r e a lly t h o s e t h a t h a v e
d i ff ic u l ty in p r e p a r in g th e ir a n s w e r w h o a r e b e in g a c c o m m o d a te d h e r e
a n d t h a t t h e y n e e d t o e x p l a in w h a t th e i r d i ff ic u l t y i s i n c o n n e c t i o n w i th
t h e c o n te n t o f t h e e v id e n c e . S o t h a t ’s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e d r a f t p r o v is o I
w o u ld b e c o n c e r n e d t h a t th e r e m a y b e t e m p ta t io n t o a p p ly w i t h o u t
m o t iv a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u s e e t h e id e a a b o u t th a t p e r s o n b e in g a p e r s o n

w h o h a s a p p l ie d f o r i s i n t h e p r o c e s s o f a p p ly i n g f o r, i n t e r m s o f R u l e
3 4 o f m a k i n g a s ta t e m e n t i s a g o o d i d e a b u t I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e th e r o n e
s h o u l d i n c l u d e i t i n t h e o r d e r. I ’l l t e l l y o u w h a t w e s h o u l d d o – I’ ll t e ll
y o u w h a t le t ’s s t o p a t p u r p o s e w e w il l d e a l w it h t h e m a s t h e y c o m e , i f
n e c e s s a r y I c a n is s u e a d ir e c ti o n i n r e g a r d t o o n e o r a ll o f t h e m t o s a y,
if y o u a p p ly fo r t h i s , t h i s is w h a t y o u m u s t c o m p ly w i th b u t fo r n o w I

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
t h i n k l e t ’s j u s t s t o p a t p u r p o s e .
ADV ROB PETER SEN:

C h a ir th e v e r y id e a o f a n a p p l ic a ti o n is i t

i m p l ie s t h a t i t m u s t b e p r o p e r ly m o ti v a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d i f it ’s n o t p r o p e r ly m o tiv a t e d w e ’l l – o n c e w e
a r e a w a r e o f i t I c o u ld is s u e a d ir e c t iv e t o s a y, d e a l w it h A , B , C , D .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s a n d i f y o u g e t a n u n s a t is f a c t o r y a p p lic a ti o n
t h e n y o u c o u l d m a k e t h o s e o b l ig a ti o n s w h e n y o u d e a l w i th i t .

I say

w h e n y o u r e c e iv e a n u n s a tis f a c t o r y a p p li c a ti o n th e n y o u c o u ld m a k e
t h o s e o b s e r v a ti o n s w h e n d e c i d in g h o w to h a n d le it .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

J a a n d t h e n w h e r e v e r t h e – in t h e s e c o n d l i n e

p a r a g r a p h o n e w h e r e i t s a y s i t d e f i n e s C o l o n e l N a id o o a s N a i d o o I ’ d
lik e to s t a y w i t h m a y b e j u s t C o lo n e l N a i d o o .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : C o lo n e l N a i d o o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a C o l o n e l N a id o o a n d th r o u g h o u t t h e o r d e r.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja so it doesn’t just say Naidoo.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t I’ ll n o w r e a d i t o u t a s a m e n d e d a n d t h e n a n d
w h e r e i t s a y s N a i d o o I w i ll s a y C o lo n e l N a i d o o a n d th e n i t c a n b e
20

p r i n t e d a n d th e n i t c a n b e s i g n e d a n d m a d e a v a il a b l e . T h e o r d e r th a t I
m a k e i n r e g a r d to th e a p p li c a t io n t h a t I h e a r d th is m o r n i n g b r o u g h t b y
Colonel Naidoo reads as follows,
“ I t is h e r e b y o r d e r e d t h a t ,
1 ) To e n s u r e t h a t w h e n L ie u t e n a n t C o l o n e l D h a n a j a y a
D h a n a l o o [ ? ] N a i d o o ( C o l o n e l N a i d o o ) w h o is a p r o t e c t e d

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
p e r s o n a s d e fi n e d i n t h e w it n e s s p r o t e c ti o n A c t 11 2 o f 1 9 9 8
( t h e A c t) g iv e s e v id e n c e to t h e C o m m i s s io n , t h e l o c a ti o n to
w h ic h h e h a s b e e n
new

r e l o c a t e d in t e r m s o f th e Ac t a n d t h e

id e n t i ty w h ic h h e h a s b e e n g iv e n o r w h i c h h e h a s a s s u m e d
f o r h is p r o t e c t io n p u r s u a n t t o th e Ac t a r e n o t d is c lo s e d .
1 .1 H e w ill n o t b e p r e s e n t a t t h e h e a r i n g r o o m a t a n y ti m e .
1 .2 A s e p a r a t e l o c a ti o n ( t h e p r o t e c t e d w i t n e s s lo c a t io n ) w i ll
b e p r o v id e d .
1 .3 H e w i ll g iv e h is e v i d e n c e fr o m th e p r o t e c t e d w i t n e s s

10

lo c a ti o n .
1 .4 N o c a m e r a w i ll b e p e r m i t t e d i n th e p r o t e c te d w i t n e s s
lo c a ti o n .
1 .5 A n a u d i o li n k fr o m t h e p r o t e c t e d w i t n e s s l o c a ti o n w i ll b e
p r o v i d e d s o t h a t h is e v id e n c e c a n b e h e a r d i n t h e
h e a r in g r o o m w h e n h e g iv e s it .
1 .6 E x c e p t

as

s t a te d

in

paragraph

1 .7

b e lo w,

the

C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e r e l e v a n t e v id e n c e l e a d e r s a n d a ll o t h e r
p a r t ic ip a n ts i n t h e p r o c e e d in g s w i ll b e l o c a te d i n t h e
h e a r in g r o o m w h e n C o lo n e l N a i d o o g iv e s e v id e n c e ” .
20

I’ m s to p p i n g t h e r e Mr P e t e r s e n it lo o k s l ik e w e d o n ’ t
r e a l ly n e e d 1 . 6 b e c a u s e s o m e w h e r e y o u h a v e a n o r d e r a b o u t w h o –
a b o u t n o b o d y a l lo w e d t o g o t o t h e p r o t e c t e d w i tn e s s l o c a t i o n , is n ’ t i t ?
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : A r e y o u s a y i n g C h a ir, t h a t i f 1 6 is d e le t e d i t w i ll
b e a p p li e d i n a n y e v e n t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b e c a u s e w h e r e e ls e c a n t h e y b e i f t h e y c a n ’ t b e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w h e r e th e w i t n e s s w i ll b e .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : T h a t s e e m s t o m e t o b e c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV

ROB

PETERSEN:

So

then

t h e r e ’s

a

r e n u m b e r in g

of

t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o w e d e l e te 1 . 6 a n d t h e n 1 . 7 b e c o m e s 1 . 6 a n d
t h e n – s o … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : W i t h c o n s e q u e n t ia l r e n u m b e r in g ?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

C o n s e q u e n t ia l r e n u m b e r i n g s o t h e y n e w 1 .6 t h e n

reads,
“ 1 .6 N o p e r s o n s o t h e r t h a n th e C h a ir p e r s o n ( i f a n d w h e n h e
c o n s i d e r s it a p p r o p r ia t e ) th e r e l e v a n t e v id e n c e l e a d e r s a n d
t h o s e n e c e s s a r y t o p r o t e c t C o lo n e l N a i d o o w h e n h e a t t e n d s t o
g iv e e v id e n c e … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

E x c u s e m e fo r i n t e r r u p ti n g , w e th e n a g a in

r e m o v e a t t e n d s t o g iv e e v i d e n c e , w h e n h e g iv e s e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that.
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : W e ll I ’ m n o t s u r e n o w w h e n h e a tt e n d s to g iv e
e v i d e n c e w e j u s t n e e d to b e s u r e t h a t, t h a t is m a in t a i n i n g th e
20

u n c e r t a in ty o f l o c a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh okay when he gives evidence, we just say when

he gives evidence.
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: When he gives evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I r e a d p a r a g r a p h 1 . 6 a g a in ,
“ 1 .6 N o p e r s o n s o th e r th a n th e C h a i r p e r s o n ( i f a n d w h e n h e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
c o n s i d e r s i t a p p r o p r ia t e ) , th e r e l e v a n t e v i d e n c e le a d e r s
a n d th o s e n e c e s s a r y t o a s s i s t o r p r o t e c t C o l o n e l N a id o o
w h e n h e g iv e s e v id e n c e w il l b e p e r mi t t e d t o e n te r t h e
p r o t e c t e d w i tn e s s l o c a t i o n .
1 .7 T h e C o m m is s i o n ’s s a f e ty a n d S e c u r i ty A d v is o r w h o is t h e
h e a d o f t h e s e c u r i ty f o r t h e C o m m is s io n o r in h is
a b s e n c e a n o th e r p e r s o n s p e c if ic a l ly d e s i g n a t e d b y th e
C h a ir p e r s o n w i ll h a v e th e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f c o n tr o l li n g
a c c e s s t o t h e p r o t e c t e d w i t n e s s l o c a ti o n i n t e r m s o f th is
10

o r d e r a n d o f e n s u r in g th a t o n ly C o lo n e l N a id o o a n d o t h e r
p e r s o n s p e r m it t e d in te r ms o f p a r a g r a p h 1 . 6 a b o v e e n t e r
it . S o i t s a y s 1 . 7 b u t n o w i t w il l b e 1 . 6 a n d th e n ,
1 .8 S u b j e c t t o u s u a l r u l e s a p p l ic a b l e t o t h e c o n d u c t o f th e
C o m m i s s i o n ’s p r o c e e d i n g s a ) m e m b e r s o f th e p u b li c ,
in c l u d i n g th e m e d ia m a y b e p r e s e n t in th e h e a r i n g r o o m .
b ) s o u n d r e a c h i n g th e h e a r i n g r o o m v ia t h e a u d i o l in k
fr o m t h e p r o t e c t e d w i tn e s s l o c a ti o n m a y b e b r o a d c a s t
a n d t h e p r o c e e d in g s i n t h e h e a r i n g r o o m m a y b e fil e d
and broadcast.

20

1 .9 N o v i d e o o r o t h e r i m a g e o f C o l o n e l N a i d o o w h a ts o e v e r
may be taken or may be broadcast.
1 .1 0 N o p e r s o n m a y p h o to g r a p h o r p u b li s h a n y p h o t o g r a p h o r
any image of any other person engaged in or responsible
f o r t h e p r o t e c t io n o f C o lo n e l N a id o o w h e n h e g iv e s
evidence.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
1 .1 1 N o d o c u m e n t o r o t h e r e v id e n c e r e v e a li n g t h e l o c a ti o n t o
w h ic h C o lo n e l N a i d o o h a s b e e n r e l o c a te d in t e r m s o f t h e
A c t o r h i s n e w i d e n ti t y s h a l l b e te n d e r e d o r o t h e r w is e
placed on record”.
Is i t c l e a r f r o m t h i s o r d e r t h a t, s h o u ld a n y o n e b e c o m e a w a r e o f
w h e r e th e p r o t e c t e d w i t n e s s lo c a t io n is , t h e y m a y n o t p u b l is h t h a t
– t h e y m a y n o t p u b li s h t h a t in f o r m a t i o n o r s h o u l d w e a d d
something?
ADV
10

ROB

PETERSEN:

I

th i n k

s o m e th i n g

could

be

added

b u t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u t h in k i t’s a d e q u a t e ly … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV ROB PETER SEN:

F o u r w h ic h r e m i n d s p e o p le o f t h e o r d e r t h a t

y o u g a v e o n t h e 1 7 t h o f S e p t e m b e r w o u l d h a v e t h e s a m e e ff e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d h a v e th e s a m e e ff e c t j a .
ADV ROB PETERSEN:

A n d i f s u ffi c i e n t c a r e is ta k e n o v e r th e

p r o t e c t e d w i t n e s s l o c a ti o n a s is i n t e n d e d t h e n i t w o u l d s e e m to b e
u n n e c e s s a r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay:
“ 2 . T h is o r d e r m a y b e a m e n d e d o r s u p p l e m e n t e d b y th e
20

C h a ir p e r s o n a t a n y t i m e i f, i n h is o p i n i o n , th a t is
n e c e s s a r y t o e n s u r e t h e p r o t e c ti o n o f C o lo n e l N a i d o o o r
a n y o t h e r p e r s o n i n c o n n e c ti o n w i t h C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s
e v i d e n c e o r t o e n s u r e fa ir n e s s to a n y i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n .
3 . N o t h in g i n t h i s o r d e r p r e c l u d e s

th e g r a n t i n g

by the

C h a ir p e r s o n o f a n o r d e r, m e r o m o t u o r o n a p p lic a ti o n b y a

Page 93 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
p e r s o n w h o i s o r m a y b e i m p l ic a te d b y t h e e v id e n c e o f
C o l o n e l N a i d o o , a ll o w i n g t h a t p e r s o n to h a v e s i g h t o f
Colonel Naidoo or being shown a photograph of him which
h a s b e e n a p p r o v e d b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n f o r t h e p u r p o s e .
4 . Th is o r d e r d o e s n o t d e r o g a t e fr o m t h e o r d e r m a d e o n 1 7
S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 9 a s r e q u ir e d b y S e c ti o n 1 8 o f t h e A c t
p r o h ib i ti n g p u b l ic a ti o n o f a n y in f o r m a t io n i n c lu d in g a n y
drawing,

picture,

i ll u s tr a ti o n ,

p a i n ti n g ,

photograph

whether produced through or by means of computer
10

s o f tw a r e

on

a

screen

or

a

computer

printout

as

c o n te m p l a t e d i n th e Fi l m s a n d P u b li c a t io n s A c t 1 9 9 6 a t 6 5
o f 1 9 9 6 o r n o p a m p h le t , p o s t e r o r o t h e r p r i n t e d m a t t e r
w h ic h m a y m a y d is c lo s e :
4 .1 T h e p l a c e o f s a f e t y o r l o c a ti o n w h e r e C o l o n e l
N a i d o o i s o r h a s b e e n u n d e r p r o te c t i o n o r w h e r e h e
h a s b e e n r e lo c a t e d i n t e r m s o f t h e A c t .
4 .2 T h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s r e l a ti n g t o h is p r o te c t io n .
4 .3 Th e id e n ti ty o f a n y o t h e r p r o t e c t e d p e r s o n a n d t h e
p l a c e o f s a f e ty o r lo c a t io n w h e r e s u c h p e r s o n i s b e i n g
20

protected.
4 .4 C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s r e lo c a t io n o r c h a n g e o f i d e n ti ty.
T h a t is t h e o r d e r t h a t I m a k e i n t h i s – i n t h a t m a t t e r a n d o n c e t h e o r d e r
h a s b e e n p r in t e d it s h o u ld b e d is s e m i n a t e d to a ll m e d i a h o u s e s a n d
m a d e a v a il a b l e t o th e p u b lic .
A D V R O B P E T E R S E N : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . O k a y th a n k y o u .
ADV ROB PET ERSEN: May I be excused?
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . T h a n k y o u .

We can then resume

t h e e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r K h u b a . Ms W e n tz e l a r e y o u
ready?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I a m t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r K h u b a b e f o r e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t w e

w e r e d e a l i n g w i th th e m e e t in g t h a t y o u h a d w i t h G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a a t
10

y o u r h o m e d u r i n g O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 w h ic h is d e a lt w it h fr o m p a g e s 1 4 a n d
15 of your statement.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s h e s a i d h e g a v e h i m s o m e d r i n k s a n d a f t e r t h a t

G e n e r a l N t le m e z a le f t h is h o u s e , is th a t r i g h t ? I s t h a t r i g h t ? L e f t y o u r
h o u s e – h e le f t y o u r h o u s e a f te r a – a ft e r y o u h a d g iv e n d r i n k s a n d s o
on?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Th a t is c o r r e c t. I th in k t h e r e i s
a p a r t th a t I d id n o t c l e a r ly c o v e r t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
20

Because when he mentioned

a b o u t G e n e r a l M d l u l i fo r m e w a s a s u r p r i s e b e c a u s e w h e n I w o r k e d w i th
C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e h e n e v e r m a d e m e n ti o n o f G e n e r a l M d l u li .

I

w o r k e d h i m f o r – I w o r k e d w i t h h i m f o r a v e r y lo n g t i m e b u t h e n e v e r
m a d e – e v e n a n i n d ic a ti o n o f a n y t h i n g r e l a ti n g t o M d l u l i.

Now that

g a v e m e a c o n s e n t b u t I w a n t e d t o in d i c a t e is t h a t h e s a i d to m e t h a t
m y r e p o r t w a s t h e o n e w h ic h w a s h o l d i n g b a c k h is m o v e t o th e H a w k s .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A n d a s I i n d ic a te d I c o u l d n o t r e a lly t a k e h i m s e r i o u s b e c a u s e I ju s t
lis t e n e d to h i m b u t I d id n o t r e a lly t a k e h i m s e r i o u s . B u t I p u t i t in m y
mind. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u t h i n k h e w a s k i n d o f e x a g g e r a t in g th e

s i tu a ti o n n a m e ly – y o u – d i d y o u t h i n k t h a t w e ll i f t h e r e w a s t o b e a
v a c a n c y i n t h e H a w k s i t w o u ld b e – t h e p o s i ti o n w o u ld b e a d v e r ti s e d
a n d d i ffe r e n t p e o p l e w o u l d a p p ly. T h i s th i n g o f h i m s a y in g y o u r r e p o r t
– th e d e l a y i n y o u r r e p o r t w a s h o l d i n g h i m b a c k w a s ju s t s o m e
e x a g g e r a ti o n o n h is p a r t o f t h e p o s i ti o n .
10

M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o I d id n o t r e a l ly t a k e i t a s a n
e x a g g e r a ti o n b u t I t h in k f r o m t h e b a c k g r o u n d t h a t h e to ld m e t h a t h e
w a s g o i n g t o m o v e t o I P I D a n d l a t e r c a m e a n d s a y t h e p o li ti c a l
p r i n c i p l e s a r e n o lo n g e r w a n t i n g h i m t o g o t o I P I D – I P I D b y t h e H a w k s .
S o i t m a d e m e n o t t o – I j u s t f e l t t h a t I s h o u l d n o t r e a l ly e n t e r t a i n w h a t
h e w a s s a y in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

H m . B u t w a s t h a t b e c a u s e y o u h a d a f e e li n g t h a t i f

t h i n g s w e r e t o h a p p e n t h e w a y h e w a s s a y i n g it w o u l d n o t b e – t h e y
w o u ld n o t b e h a p p e n i n g t h e r i g h t w a y o r …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Is it b e c a u s e y o u d i d n o t b e l i e v e t h a t – y o u d i d n o t

b e li e v e h i m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o I j u s t fe l t a ls o t h a t t h e

p r o c e s s t h a t i t w i ll t a k e t o g e t r id o f D r a m a t w o u ld n o t r e a ll y b e a n e a s y
one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W o u ld n o t b e a n e a s y o n e ?

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : E a s y o n e y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

O k a y.

W h e n h e s a i d t h a t h is p r in c i p l e –

p o li t ic a l p r i n c ip le s n o l o n g e r w a n te d h i m t o g o t o t h e H a w k – to I P I D
b u t w a n t e d h i m t o g o to t h e H a w k s w h o d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d h i m t o r e f e r
to?
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : To t e ll y o u t h e h o n e s t f a c t I h a d
a c h a l l e n g e I c o u l d n o t r e a l ly p u t a n i n d iv i d u a l t h e r e b e c a u s e h e n e v e r
s a i d a p o l i ti c a l p r i n c i p le h e s a id p r in c i p l e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d h e s a i d p o li t ic a l p r i n c ip l e .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h e d id n o t p u t i t t h a t w a y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh what did he say?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

H e ta lk e d a b o u t p o l i tic a l

p r i n c i p l e s th a t th e y w o u ld …
CHAIRPERSON:

O h I t h o u g h t t h a t w a s w h a t I s a id .

M s W e n tz e l d i d

y o u h e a r th e s a m e th i n g ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I t h i n k t h a t w h a t h e is s a y i n g is t h a t t h e
o n e i s s i n g u l a r a n d t h e o t h e r is p l u r a l .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t th e d is t in c ti o n y o u a r e m a k in g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s th a t i s t h e d is ti n c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o , n o , n o I a m s o r r y. O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e s a i d p o li t ic a l – h is p o li ti c a l p r i n c ip l e .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: One – singular?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o , n o
C H A I R P E R S O N : P lu r a l?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a h e w a s r e fe r r i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I t h o u g h t I w a s u s i n g p l u r a l . O k a y ja .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t w h o – w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h o h e
was referring to?
10

M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M y – I c o u ld n o t p l a c e – I c o u l d
n o t p l a c e th e f a c e C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I j u s t t h o u g h t p r o b a b ly i f w e t a l k
a b o u t p o l ic in g i t w i ll b e t h e M i n i s te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y a lr ig h t . C o n t i n u e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

In paragraph 51 of your statement you said

t h a t y o u w e r e b a t tli n g t o g e t h o l d o f G e n e r a l L e b e y a a n d t h a t G e n e r a l
N tl e m e z a a s s is te d y o u i n d o in g th a t . Yo u s a i d y o u w a n te d to g e t h o l d
o f h i m b e c a u s e h e w a s o n e o f th e p e o p l e w h o h a d s i g n e d th e s u c c e s s
r e p o r t s . W h a t is a s u c c e s s r e p o r t? W h a t w e r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o t h e r e ?
20

M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A s u c c e s s r e p o r t in th is s it u a ti o n
it w a s j u s t – i t i s a o n e p a g e r r e p o r t w h e r e t h e w r i te r in d i c a t e d t h a t h e
a r r e s t e d s p e c if ic i n d i v i d u a l o n t h is p a r t ic u l a r d a y a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t o
the people
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s t h a t c o n c e r n in g ?
MR

HUMBULANI

INNOCENT

KHUBA:

Page 98 of 191

It

was

concerning

th e

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
Zi m b a b w e a n N a t io n a ls .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e – s o t h e a r r e s t o f th e Zi m b a b w e a n

N a t io n a l s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w a s t h e r e a n y s u c c e s s r e p o r t b y D r a m a t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w a f t e r y o u h a d g iv e n G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a

s o m e r e fr e s h m e n t s a n d h e l e f t y o u r h o u s e h o w d i d y o u f e e l ?
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

I w a s – I w a s – I w a s a fr a i d .

T h a t is w h y I w e n t t o m y w i fe a n d i n d i c a t e d t h a t I d o n o t k n o w w h a t I
got myself into.

B e c a u s e a t t h e ti m e I k n e w G e n e r a l M d l u li t o b e o n

s u s p e n s i o n a n d i t w o r r i e d m e t h a t h e t o o k i n t e r e s t o n m a t te r s w h e n h e
– i t is o u t s i d e . S o – a n d a l s o h is in v o lv e m e n t i n a l o t o f c a s e s lik e th e
p o li t ic a l ly c h a r g e d is s u e s .

F o r e x a m p l e t h e r e w e r e – th e r e w a s a n

is s u e a b o u t t h e r e c o r d in g s . B y t h a t ti m e i t w a s o n t h e m e d i a t h a t th e r e
w a s r e c o r d i n g o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t o r s o m e th in g b u t i t r e l a te d t o h i m t h a t
h e g a v e t h e Pr e s id e n t s o m e t h in g . S o I h a d a li t tl e b i t o f i n f o r m a ti o n o f
w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g w it h R ic h a r d M d l u l i .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And so…
20

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry I – I am sorry Ms Wentzel.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

E a r l ie r o n I h a d w a n t e d t o a s k y o u s o m e t h i n g a n d I

f o r g o t . W h e n y o u s a i d t h a t – y o u s a id th a t s o m e b o d y – y o u m e n t i o n e d
s o m e b o d y ’s n a m e a n d y o u s a i d w h e n y o u w o r k e d w i th h i m h e n e v e r
m e n ti o n e d G e n e r a l M d l u l i. Yo u r e m e m b e r I – w h e n y o u s a i d t h a t?

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M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w h a t w a s th e n a m e a g a i n o f t h e p e r s o n y o u t a l k i n g
a b o u t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t is C o lo n e l M o u k a n g w e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a w h o w a s h e i n t h e c o n te x t o f w h a t G e n e r a l

N tl e m e z a h a s s a i d b e c a u s e I t h in k y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t b e c a u s e
G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a s a i d G e n e r a l M d l u li s a i d i f y o u s e e a s u s p ic i o u s c a r
f o ll o w i n g y o u y o u s h o u ld a c ti v a t e G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : C o lo n e l M o u k a n g w e I k n e w h i m
10

t o b e m e m b e r o f C I C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e j a .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s u n d e r G e n e r a l M d l u l i a t th e ti m e ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

W h e r e it w a s u n d e r G e n e r a l

M d lu li . B y t h a t t i m e h e w a s o n s u s p e n s i o n I t h in k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w a l s o g i v e n th e fa c t t h a t I

w o r k e d o n t h e R e n d i ti o n c a s e w i t h C o lo n e l M o u k a n g w e I w o u l d h a v e
e x p e c te d t h a t h e w o u l d t a lk a b o u t G e n e r a l M d lu li b u t h e n e v e r
20

m e n ti o n e d h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u r t h o u g h t o f h i m is
r e l e v a n t.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e t h o u g h t o f h i m i t is r e l e v a n t
in t h is w a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d
t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i w il l b e m o r e c l o s e r t o C I i n d iv id u a ls .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : R a t h e r t h a n G e n e r a l N t le m e z a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th a t C I p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Wa s d o in g i n v e s t ig a ti o n w i th m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. So – so in other words you would have expected
10

t h a t – y o u s a i d i t is M o u k a n g w e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o lo n e l M o u k a n g w e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w o u ld h a v e b e e n t o ld b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i t o t e ll
y o u th a t i f y o u s e e a s u s p ic io u s c a r f o ll o w i n g y o u y o u m u s t a c t iv a t e h i m
o r a t l e a s t y o u w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t a t s o m e s t a g e o r a n o th e r h e
w o u ld h a v e m e n t io n e d G e n e r a l M d l u li b u t h e n e v e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

A n d y o u w e r e w o n d e r i n g w h y G e n e r a l M d l u li w a s

g iv i n g a m e s s a g e to G e n e r a l N t l e m e z a a b o u t y o u r p r o te c t i o n i n
c ir c u m s ta n c e s

where

General

N t le m e z a

was

not

I n t e lli g e n c e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t is in y o u r m i n d .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

Page 101 of 191

even

at

Crime

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o w h e n y o u s a i d y o u s t a r te d t o fe e l a fr a i d

what did you do?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I th e n a p p r o a c h e d th e th e n

A c ti n g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r M s K o e k ie M b e k i a n d I r e q u e s t e d t h a t I b e
r e m o v e d f r o m t h e te a m .

B u t w h e n I h a d d is c u s s i o n w i th h e r I n e v e r

s p o k e a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g t h a t I h a d w i t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a .
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
10

G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a . I o n ly

h i g h l ig h te d t h e is s u e o f l e a k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: That I was not happy and – but
t h e r e a l c o r e w a s t h e m e e t in g th a t I h a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a .
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t. Th e is s u e o f t h e
– t h e le a k s w a s a ls o p a r t o f th a t b u t t h e m a in i s s u e t h e r e w a s w h e n I
h e a r d a b o u t G e n e r a l M d l u li .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h y d i d y o u n o t c o n s i d e r i t a p p r o p r ia t e t o te ll M s

M b e k i a b o u t t h e m a in is s u e ?
20

M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e p r o b l e m w a s – i t w a s v e r y,
v e r y d i ffi c u l t to r e a d M s M b e k i. I t w a s v e r y, v e r y d i ff ic u l t . To s u c h a n
e x t e n t th a t I c o u l d n o t r e a l ly u n d e r s ta n d w h e t h e r s h e s u p p o r t t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n w h e t h e r s h e is a g a i n s t t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n . B e c a u s e i f t h e n
s h e w a s r e a ll y, r e a l ly, r e a lly in s u p p o r t o f m e g o i n g a f t e r t h e s e p e o p le
lik e G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d o th e r s w h y d i d s h e q u e r y m y p r e s e n c e in h e a d

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
o ffic e w h e n a n d s h e s a i d I w i ll c a n c e l y o u r a c c o m m o d a t io n w h a t a r e
y o u d o i n g h e r e ? S o f o r – f o r M s M b e k i e v e n t o d a y I c a n n o t r e a l ly te ll
w h e r e s h e s to o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e s h e s to o d o n th is is s u e o f th e R e n d i ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o y o u – y o u c h o s e t o b e c i r c u ms p e c t a b o u t

w h a t y o u t o l d h e r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w a f t e r t h i s m e e ti n g in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 d i d

y o u h a v e a n y f u r t h e r m e e t in g s w i t h G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I a m n o t s u r e t h a t h e h a s f in is h e d te ll i n g u s

a b o u t t h e d is c u s s i o n b e tw e e n h i m s e l f a n d M s M b e k i .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O h y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I think he has not.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o h e h a s n o t – y o u a r e c o r r e c t . Th a n k y o u
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

J u s t c o n – j u s t fi n a li s e y o u r – c o m p l e te y o u r

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th M s M b e k i ?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a w h e n I t o ld h e r t h a t I w a n t t o
b e r e m o v e d f r o m t h e te a m s h e r e fu s e d a n d s a i d t h e r e is n o - o n e w h o
c a n b e a b l e t o d o t h i s a n d th e M in is t e r w i ll n o t b e h a p p y a b o u t t h i s
d e c is i o n f o r y o u t o l e a v e t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d y o u m e t th e M in is t e r p e r s o n a ll y ? D i d y o u k n o w
e a c h o t h e r q u i t e w e ll ?

W h y w o u l d h e p a r ti c u la r ly n o t b e h a p p y i f y o u

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w e r e m o v e d a w a y fr o m t h e – th is in v e s t i g a ti o n ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I i n te r p r e t e d t h a t fr o m t h e f a c t

t h a t th e M i n is t e r r e fe r r e d t h is c a s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t n e c e s s a r il y t h a t I k n e w th e
M i n is t e r. I n e v e r h a d a n y in t e r a c ti o n w i th t h e M i n i s te r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : P e r s o n a ll y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Hm.

S o y o u r i n te r p r e t a ti o n – in t e r p r e ta t io n o f w h a t

M s M b e k i w a s s a y i n g w a s n o t t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r w o u ld n o t w a n t y o u a s a
p e r s o n t o b e m o v e d o u t o f th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n b u t t h a t h e m i g h t n o t li k e
t h e id e a t h a t n o w s o m e b o d y e ls e m u s t t a k e o v e r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : F o r m e …
CHAIRPERSON:

In o t h e r w o r d s d i d y o u th i n k th e c o n c e r n – d o y o u

think that as far as Ms Mbeki was concerned she thought that the
M i n is t e r w o u l d n o t b e h a p p y w it h t h e c h a n g i n g o f in v e s t i g a t o r – o f l e a d
in v e s t i g a t o r s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly th a t h e w a n te d y o u to b e t h e p e r s o n d o i n g
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a s s u c h ?
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t o n e C h a ir p e r s o n it is v e r y
20

d i ff ic u l t t o s a y o n t h e b a s is t h a t b y t h a t t i m e I h a d a lr e a d y p r o b a b ly
s e n t n u m e r o u s r e p o r ts – p r o g r e s s r e p o r ts .

What I thought was

p r o b a b ly b e c a u s e o f t h e g o o d w o r k I w a s d o i n g .
h a p p y w i th w h a t I w a s d o in g .

Pr o b a b l y h e w a s

B u t a ls o t h e s e c o n d p o i n t t h a t y o u

in d i c a t e d w h i c h m e a n s t h e c h a n g e o f i n v e s t ig a t o r b e c a u s e a n y c h a n g e
in t h e in v e s t i g a t io n te a m d e s t a b il is e s th e c a s e i ts e l f .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A f t e r th is d i d y o u h a v e c a u s e t o m e e t G e n e r a l
N tl e m e z a a g a i n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y b e t o fi n i s h . D id y o u th e n a c c e p t t h a t y o u ju s t
h a d t o c o n ti n u e w it h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w h e n y o u w e r e t o l d t h a t t h e r e i s
n o b o d y e ls e w h o c a n t a k e o v e r a n d t h e M i n is t e r w o u ld n o t b e h a p p y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a I a c c e p t e d t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M o r e e s p e c ia ll y i f th e n a m e o f a
10

p o li t ic a l p r i n c i p l e i s m e n t io n e d y o u f e e l m o r e o b li g a ti o n t o h e l p t h e
c o u n tr y a n d I f e l t th a t I n e e d t o c o n t in u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

A f t e r th is m e e ti n g i n

D e c e m b e r o r O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 d i d y o u h a v e a f u r th e r m e e ti n g w i t h G e n e r a l
N tl e m e z a ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I h a d a l a s t m e e ti n g w it h h i m b u t
that was December 2014 it was on the 6th.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s a n d w h y d i d y o u h a v e th a t m e e ti n g a n d

w h e r e d i d y o u h a v e i t?
20

M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : H e h a d c a ll e d m e a n d h e s a i d I
s h o u l d m e e t w i t h h i m a t W i m p y. H e h a d s o m e th i n g t o t a l k t o m e a b o u t .
I w e n t to t h e r e s ta u r a n t a n d w h e n I a r r iv e d h e w a s a lr e a d y s e a t e d
in s i d e . W h e n I s a t d o w n h e s a i d h e w a n t e d t o t e ll m e t h e g o o d n e w s .
A n d h e s a i d t h e r e w a s g o in g t o b e a h i t o n D r a m a t I m u s t w a tc h
t e l e v i s i o n i n t h e c o m in g w e e k s . I t o o k t h e i n fo r m a t i o n a s I a l w a y s d i d

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ju s t t o li s te n t o h i m a n d t h e n a f t e r s o m e – I d o n o t k n o w h o w m a n y
weeks had already passed but what he told me came to pass. When I
s a w o n t e l e v is io n t h a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t h a d b e e n s u s p e n d e d a n d t h e n
h e w a s a p p o i n te d to a c t i n h is p o s i t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Now when he met – when you met with him at Wimpy
– a t th e W i m p y i s i t w h a t C y c a d C e n tr e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u m e t h i m t h e r e h o w l o n g a f te r y o u h a d s e n t
y o u r fir s t r e p o r t w a s i t ? H o w m u c h t i m e h a d l a p s e d s i n c e y o u – s i n c e
10

y o u r s e n d in g th e fir s t r e p o r t?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

I t w i ll b e a l m o s t te n t o e l e v e n

m o n th s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: And probably I need to add and
s a y a f te r I s e n t t h e f ir s t r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e c o n t a c t j u s t d i e d d o w n . H e
n e v e r c o n t a c t e d m e a s r e g u la r ly a s h e u s e d t o b e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

So are you saying that when you met him at the

W i m p y C e n t r e y o u h a d s e n t y o u r fi r s t r e p o r t t o t h e N PA a b o u t t e n o r
eleven months before?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e fir s t r e p o r t it w a s t e n t o

eleven but the second report because was – sent in March.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA: This meeting was after even the

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s e c o n d r e p o r t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h i s m e e t in g w a s a f t e r e v e n t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. H o w s o o n a f te r o r h o w l o n g a f te r t h i s – t h e
s e c o n d r e p o r t i f y o u a r e a b l e to r e m e m b e r m o r e o r l e s s ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I a m n o t b e a b l e t o c a lc u la t e o u t
of my head but…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : I t t o o k p la c e – t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t
10

was in March.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d t h e m e e ti n g w a s i n

D e c e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh 2014?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : 2 0 1 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o t h e fi r s t r e p o r t y o u w o u ld h a v e s e n t i n 2 0 1 3 , is
t h a t r ig h t ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e f ir s t r e p o r t w a s i n J a n u a r y

2014.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t in M a r c h ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o i t t o o k q u i te s o m e m o n t h s b e fo r e h e – h e h a d
g o o d n e w s to t e l l y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t y e s .

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir th e fir s t r e p o r t …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – S o I a m s o r r y. S o w h e n h e s a id – s o th e g o o d

n e w s th a t h e w a s t e lli n g y o u a b o u t w a s i t t h a t t h e r e w a s a h i t – t h e r e
w a s g o in g t o b e a h i t o n D r a m a t o r – o r h e s a i d h e h a s m o v e d t o t h e
H a w k s h a d a r r iv e d – o r i s t h a t w h a t h e s a i d ? O r h o w d i d h e p u t i t?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h a t p a r t o f h i m m o v i n g to t h e

H a w k s I a lr e a d y k n e w a n d h e n e v e r l a b o u r o n t h a t in d i s c u s s io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:
10

I k n e w e x a c tly w h e n h e s a i d

t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a h i t a n d h e s a i d i t i s g o o d n e w s b e c a u s e h e to ld
m e t h a t m y r e p o r t i s t h e o n e t h a t is w i t h h o l d i n g h is m o v e to t h e H a w k s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm. Hm.

But how did you know that – before that

m e e ti n g h o w d id y o u k n o w t h a t h is m o v e t o th e H a w k s h a d a r r iv e d ? I
a m t a k i n g t h is fr o m y o u r s ta t e m e n t i n p a r a g r a p h 5 4 w h e r e y o u s a y :
“ I f o u n d G e n e r a l N t le m e z a s e a t e d i n s id e .

He said

t h a t h is t i m e t o m o v e – o r h e s a i d h is t i m e – h is ti m e
t o m o v e t o th e H a w k s h a d a r r iv e d . ”
B u t y o u s a y t h a t e v e n b e fo r e t h a t y o u – y o u k n e w a b o u t h is m o v e t o t h e
H a w k s . A r e y o u r e f e r r in g s i m p l y t o t h e s t a te m e n t h e h a d m a d e t o y o u
20

e a r l ie r t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t y o u r r e p o r t w a s w h a t w a s d e l a y in g h i s m o v e t o
the Hawks?

Is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e b a s i n g t h a t o n o r d i d y o u h e a r

s o m e t h i n g e ls e a b o u t h is m o v e t o th e H a w k s ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

T h e e a r li e r

m e e ti n g w e h a d th a t is w h e n h e s a id h e n e e d e d t o m o v e t o t h e H a w k s .
CHAIRPERSON: hm.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h a t is t h e m e e ti n g th a t w a s

h e l d I t h i n k a r o u n d O c to b e r th a t i s 2 0 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w in 2 0 1 4 t h a t i s w h e n h e t o l d
me about the hit as the good news.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ev e n t h o u g h h e t a lk e d a b o u t t h e
– t h e is s u e o f h i s m o v e h e w a s n o r r e a ll y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex c i t e d a b o u t th a t .
10

M R H U M B U L A N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : J a t h e m a i n is s u e w a s t h e h i t o n
Dramat.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w h a t h e w a s e x c i te d a b o u t w a s t h e h i t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

But you understood that the hit would

open the door…
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e d o o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d o o r t o h i m t o g o to t h e H a w k s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o h e s a id y o u m u s t w a tc h t h e n e w s o n T V i n th e

coming weeks?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d ju s t s o t h a t w e c o n t i n u e w i th th e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s t a te m e n t y o u s a i d y o u d i d w a tc h th e n e w s a n d y o u s a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s e e t h e h i t ? Yo u w a tc h e d th e n e w s a n d d i d
you see the hit?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : U m – j a . I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r
I c a n u s e h is t e r m w h e t h e r i t w a s a h i t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll b u t a t le a s t d i d y o u s e e s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u

in t e r p r e t e d t o b e t h e h i t t h a t h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u s a w s o m e t h i n g y o u d i d n o t k n o w i f i t w a s th e
10

h i t t h a t h e w a s r e f e r r in g t o b u t l a te r o n y o u h e a r d fr o m h i m t h a t i t w a s
the hit or …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I s a w s o m e th i n g h a p p e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I IN N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d I t h o u g h t i t is th e h i t t h a t h e
spoke about.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Te l l m e a b o u t w h a t y o u s a w ?
MR HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

T h e r e w a s a n is s u e a b o u t t h e

s u s p e n s i o n o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d th a t h e w a s a p p o in t e d to a c t i n t h a t
p o s i ti o n . S o i t h a p p e n e d e x a c tl y a s h e s a i d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y – y e s o k a y, o k a y. S o – s o i t – th e T V – t h e
news show – now revealed that the – General Dramat was suspended
a n d th a t G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a w a s g o in g to a c t i n h is p o s i ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W a s t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t o n li k e s i m u l t a n e o u s o f
t h e t w o o r y o u d o n o t r e a ll y k n o w – c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?

Page 110 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d h a v e b e e n c l o s e to e a c h o t h e r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h a d b e e n c lo s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t d i d y o u t h i n k a f te r t h i s ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A f te r t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e p h o n e y o u – I a m s o r r y – I a m s o r r y. D o n o t
f o r g e t w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y.

Did he ma ybe phone you after the hit

h a p p e n e d o n th e n e w s t o s a y d id y o u s e e t h e h i t ?
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o h e g a v e m e a c a ll o n c e w h il e
he was working that we need to meet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR

HUMBULANI

INNOCENT

KHUBA:

But

th e

m e e t in g

never

m a t e r i a lis e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w – w a s t h a t w h e n h e w a s a l r e a d y a c t in g i n
20

G e n e r a l D r a m a t ’s p o s i t io n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . I a m s o r r y I i n te r r u p t e d y o u w h i l e y o u
w e r e r e s p o n d in g to a q u e s t io n th a t Ms W e n tz e l p u t to y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A f t e r th is a n d y o u t h e n s e e t h e t e le v is i o n a n d
it h a s h a p p e n e d e x a c tl y a s h e h a d s a i d w h a t d id y o u t h in k ?

Page 111 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I s t a r te d – y o u k n o w i t s t a r te d t o
c o n fir m t h e c h a ll e n g e s t h a t I h a d w it h t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M a d i lo n g a a n d
t h e e n tir e is s u e o f R e n d i ti o n .

I t r e a ll y, r e a ll y tr o u b l e d m e b u t i t w a s

s o m e t h i n g t h a t I c o u l d n o t d o a n y t h in g a b o u t it .

The statement of

M a d i l o n g a I h a d a n u m b e r o f i s s u e s w i t h t h a t s ta t e m e n t . Th e f ir s t I h a d
a lr e a d y i n d ic a te d y e s te r d a y th a t h e h a d a s t a te m e n t th a t h e h a s s i g n e d
w h ic h w a s n o t c o m m i s s io n e d a n d t h a t is w h e r e h e in d ic a t e d t h a t
n o t h i n g w e n t w r o n g . T h o s e p e o p le w e r e j u s t d e p o r t e d c o r r e c t ly. N o w
t h a t w a s th e f ir s t c h a ll e n g e a n d th e s e c o n d s t a t e m e n t w h e r e h e c h a n g e
10

h is v e r s i o n a n d a ls o i n d ic a te d t h a t h e f o r c e d t o m a k e t h a t s t a te m e n t ,
t h e fir s t o n e . N o w t h e o t h e r is s u e w a s t h e is s u e t h a t – I a ls o h a d t h e
d o c u m e n ts

r e l a ti n g

to

Zimbabwean

a u th o r i ty

thanking

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e f o r t h e g o o d w o r k d o n e w h e n t h e y a s s is t e d th e m i n g e t ti n g
h o l d o f t h e ir N a t i o n a l s . T h a t d o c u m e n t m a d e n o m e n ti o n o f D r a m a t . In
f a c t i t is d ir e c te d t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e . A n d I fe l t i f t h e n D r a m a t w a s
t h e p i o n e e r o f t h i s t h in g th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o h a v e w r i t t e n t o h i m
d ir e c t ly. S o h is n a m e w a s n o t m e n ti o n e d . T h a t l e tt e r i t w a s a n o ffic ia l
le t t e r o n t h e b a s is t h a t i t e n d e d u p i n t h e h a n d s o f t h e P r o v i n c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r o f G a u t e n g , C o m m i s s i o n e r P e tr u s a n d h e w r o t e a n
20

a tt a c h m e n t b a c k t o C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e t h a n k i n g t h e m f o r t h e g o o d w o r k
d o n e . S o t h e r e w e r e a ls o is s u e s o f t h e a n a ly s i s o f s t a t e m e n t th a t I d i d
w h ic h in d ic a t e d t h a t h e w a s n o t tr u t h f u l w i t h t h e i n fo r m a ti o n a n d t h e
is s u e is th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M a d i lo n g a ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R H U M B U L A N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e w a s a ls o a n i s s u e o f th e
c a l l w h ic h w a s m a d e a t B e i t B r id g e b e c a u s e i n h is s t a t e m e n t i t w a s p u t
in s u c h a w a y t h a t a s i f i t i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e – h e – D r a m a t is t h e o n e
w h o o p e n e d w a y f o r th e d e p o r t a ti o n . B u t t h e tr u th o f t h e m a t t e r is t h a t
t h a t c a l l w a s m a d e o n th e 4 t h a n d th e a c t u a l R e n d i t io n o f t h e s e
Zi m b a b w e a n N a t io n a l s to o k p la c e o n th e 8 t h . A n d t h e o t h e r is s u e w a s
t h e l e v e l o f i n t e r f e r e n c e t h a t I h a d i n t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i ts e l f . I t r e a l ly
s tr e n g t h e n e d m y d o u b t w h e t h e r t h is t h i n g w a s d o n e in g o o d fa i th . I a m
10

n o t s a y in g t h a t t h a t R e n d i ti o n n e v e r t o o k p l a c e I a m j u s t s a y i n g w a s i t
d o n e t h e n – I m e a n t h e w h o le in v e s ti g a ti o n , t h e s e t u p a n d w h e n it
started was it done in good faith?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ar e y o u r a is i n g th a t q u e s t io n b e c a u s e o f t h e f a c t t h a t
t h e Z i m b a b w e a n a u th o r it i e s d ir e c t e d th e ir l e t t e r o f a p p r e c ia t io n t o
C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a n d y e t p e o p l e w h o w e r e b e in g i n v e s t ig a te d i n
r e l a ti o n t o t h e R e n d it i o n is s u e w e r e p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n th e H a w k s a n d
y o u – a r e y o u a s k i n g th e q u e s t i o n w h y w o u l d t h e l e t te r b e d ir e c t e d t o
C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e i f th e p e o p l e w e r e r e a lly t h e m a s t e r m i n d s w e r e i n
the Hawks why was it not directed to the Hawks?

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr K h u b a c o u ld y o u p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e 5 2 i t
is A n n e x u r e 5 i n t h e b u n d l e i n fr o n t o f y o u . I s t h a t t h e l e t te r t h a t y o u
a r e r e f e r r in g to ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n p a g e ?

Page 113 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 52.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : P a g e 5 2 o n ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e 5 2 i t is a l e tt e r w i t h t h e h e a d i n g o r le t t e r h e a d

Zi m b a b w e R e p u b l ic P o lic e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : J u s t lo o k a t t h e p a g e n u m b e r s o n th e t o p r i g h t
hand side.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Remember 50…
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s . L e t m e c h e c k ?
CHAIRPERSON:

R e m e m b e r w h e n I s a id w h e n s h e m e n t io n s t h e p a g e

s h e w il l n o t m e n t i o n 0 b e f o r e 5 2 .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s th a t i s t h e o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W e l l M s W e n t z e l y o u m ig h t w is h t o r e a d i n t o

t h e r e c o r d s o m e r e l e v a n t p a r ts o f it o r t h e w h o le o f i t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I in t e n d to d o s o . I f y o u h a v e a l o o k a t
t h e le t t e r i t i s d a te d th e 1 4 t h M a r c h 2 0 0 1 to th e C o m m a n d e r …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 11 .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

11 I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .

And addressed to

C o m m a n d e r C r i m in a l I n v e s t ig a ti o n s U n i t S o u th A fr ic a P o lic e S e r v ic e
P r e t o r i a a n d it i s m a r k e d f o r t h e a tt e n ti o n o f C o l o n e l N t e n te n i, i s th a t
r ig h t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

Page 114 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e h e a d i n g o f t h e le t t e r i s “L e t te r o f

a p p r e c ia t io n o f g o o d w o r k p e r f o r m e d b y y o u r in t e l li g e n c e o ffic e r s . ” A n d
t h e n th e o ffic e r s a r e n a m e d . I t s a y s :
“ I w is h t o e x p r e s s m y p r o f o u n d g r a t it u d e i n t h e
e x e m p l a r y p r o fe s s io n a l is m , b r e v i t y a n d d e d ic a ti o n to
d u t y th a t w a s e x h i b i t e d b y y o u r a b o v e m e n t i o n e d
o p e r a ti v e s .
B u la w a y o

O u r c r i m i n a l in v e s t i g a t io n d e p a r t m e n t
was

i n v e s ti g a ti n g

a

case

of

murder

in v o lv i n g a s e n i o r p o l ic e o ffi c e r o f t h e Zi m b a b w e a n
10

R e p u b l ic P o lic e t h e l a te C h i e f S u p e r i n d e n t C h a t ik o b o
w h o w a s k i ll e d i n B u l a w a y o o n t h e 1 8 t h S e p te m b e r
2010 by the accused Gordon Dube, Johannes Nyone
a n d t h r e e o t h e r s . S o o n a f te r c o m m i t t in g t h e o ff e n c e
t h e tw o m e n t io n e d a c c u s e d p e r s o n s fl e d Z i m b a b w e
and

sought

refuge

in

Diepsloot

S q u a t te r

Camp

J o h a n n e s b u r g in t h e R e p u b lic o f S o u t h A fr i c a .
passed

on

i n fo r m a t i o n

to

the

We

abovementioned

o ffic e r s r e g a r d i n g t h e t w o a c c u s e d p e r s o n s w h o
r e a c te d s w if t ly, m a n a g e d t o a r r e s t t h e t w o f u g i t iv e s
20

a n d r e c o v e r e d a C Z p is t o l t h a t w a s t a k e n fr o m t h e
d e c e a s e d p o l ic e o ffic e r i n Z i m b a b w e .

D u r i n g th e

p e r i o d 2 1 s t F e b r u a r y t o 1 s t M a r c h 2 0 11 th e s a m e
team

a s s is te d

me

and

my

team

when

I

was

c o n d u c t in g s o m e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s i n t h e R e p u b l ic o f
S o u th A f r ic a .

I r e a ll y e n jo y e d th e m a n n e r a n d

Page 115 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
fashion

the

themselves

a b o v e m e n ti o n e d

to

p o l ic e

work

o ff ic e r s

despite

b e in g

a li g n e d
ju n i o r

o ffic e r s . M a y y o u r r e s p e c ti v e … ”
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on Ms Wentzel.

O k a y w e a d j o u r n f o r f iv e

m i n u t e s f o r t h e te c h n i c i a n s to a tt e n d t o th e ir p r o b l e m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s p r o c e e d . I th i n k - I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u
t o o k n o te o f w h e r e y o u w e r e w h e n th e p r o b le m s ta r t e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s ( i n d is ti n c t ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u r m ic r o p h o n e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

We got up to page 53 of the bundle towards

t h e e n d o f t h e l e t t e r. I t s a y s :
“ M a y y o u r r e s p e c t e d o ff ic e c o n v e y my a p p r e c i a ti o n
20

t o a ll o f t h e m ?

I a ls o w i s h t o t h a n k y o u a n d

C a p t a i n B u s a n g f o r th e s u p p o r t r e n d e r e d t o m e a n d
m y te a m d u r i n g t h e v is i t . B e s t r e g a r d s , E M a k o d z a
A s s is ta n t C o m m i s s i o n e r C I D C o - o r d i n a to r B u la w a y o
M a t a b e le la n d N o r t h a n d S o u t h Pr o v i n c e s . ”
Is t h a t th e l e t t e r y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g to ?

Page 116 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : ( N o a u d i b le r e p ly ) .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr Khuba.

I s t h a t t h e le t t e r t h a t y o u w e r e

r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d if y o u h a v e a l o o k a t w h a t is c a ll e d

A n n e x u r e s B , C , D o n w a r d s fr o m p a g e s 5 4 th r o u g h t o 5 8 w i th t h e fir s t
le t t e r a d d r e s s e d to t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r S A P o l ic e S e r v i c e
G a u t e n g o n 2 4 M a r c h 2 0 11 . R e c o m m e n d a ti o n f o r g o o d w o r k p e r fo r m e d
b y M e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e . T h e n i t s a y s :
“ A t t a c h e d h e r e w i t h a mi n u te d a t e d 1 4 M a r c h 2 0 11

10

fr o m

C ID

Zi m b a b w e .

Provincial

Head

Quarters

F o r y o u r in f o r m a ti o n .

B u la w a y o

The members

in v o lv e d a r e s t a ti o n e d a t P r e t o r ia C e n t r a l C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e S t a ti o n . I t w o u l d b e a p p r e c i a t e d i f th e
members

can

be

c a l le d

to

your

o ffic e

to

c o n g r a t u l a t e t h e m fo r t h e g o o d w o r k t h a t w a s
done.”
A n d fo ll o w i n g th a t y o u w il l s e e t h a t l e t t e r s o f a p p r e c ia t io n
were
20

then

sent

to

th e s e

members

under

a

heading

A p p r e c i a ti o n e m p l o y e e s o f P r e t o r ia C e n tr a l C I G a n d i t s a y s :
“Apprehending
Zi m b a b w e

wanted

after

c r i m i n a ls

m u r d e r in g

who

f le d

Zimbabwean

Chief.”
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

Page 117 of 191

from
P o l ic e

Letter

of

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w i f w e c a n g o b a c k t o t h e m is g iv i n g s y o u
s a i d y o u s ta r te d t o h a v e a b o u t C o l o n e l M a d i l o n g a ’s s t a te m e n t w h ic h
y o u d e a l w i t h o n p a g e s 1 6 a n d 1 7 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t . Yo u s a id e a r l ie r
t h a t - y o u r e f e r r e d a g a i n t o th e tw o s t a te m e n ts t h a t h e h a d g i v e n .
C o u ld y o u j u s t c la r i fy o n e th i n g ?
I n t h e fi r s t s t a t e m e n t w h ic h y o u t e s ti fi e d t o y e s t e r d a y w a s n o t
c o m m i s s io n e d d i d th a t r e fe r in a n y w a y t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

And

th e

second

statement

that

was

c o m m i s s io n e d d i d th a t o n e r e f e r t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w e r e y o u t o l d b y C o lo n e l M a d i l o n g a
w a s t h e r e a s o n fo r t h e d is c r e p a n c y ? D i d y o u in t e r r o g a t e h i m o n t h is ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I a s k e d h i m a b o u t t h e s ta t e m e n t
a n d h e s a id h e w a s f o r c e d t o m a k e t h e f ir s t o n e w h ic h m e a n s h e
i m p l ie d th a t t h e f ir s t o n e w a s i n c o r r e c t .

T h e c o r r e c t o n e w a s th e

second one.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t d i d y o u th i n k a b o u t t h a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

Fo r m e i t d id n o t m a k e s e n s e

b e c a u s e i f h e w a s r e a ll y f o r c e d t o i m p l ic a t e - n o t to i m p l ic a t e D r a m a t i n
t h e fir s t o n e .

Th e y w o u ld h a v e h a d i t c o m m i s s io n e d s o t h a t h e c o u ld

n o t h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o d e v i a t e fr o m t h a t v e r s i o n . H o w e v e r w h e n I
drew that statement and when I also showed him the copy of that
s t a te m e n t i t w a s n o t c o m m i s s i o n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e s a y w h o fo r c e d h i m t o d o th e fi r s t o n e ?

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e d i d n o t i n d ic a te t h e n a m e b u t
h e s a id h e r e c e iv e d a c a l l a n d w a s t o l d w h a t t o s a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I n th e fir s t s ta t e m e n t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o t h e w h o l e s t a te m e n t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I n t e r m s o f t h e s t a t e m e n t . J a , i n
t e r m s o f th e w h o l e s t a te m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W h ic h a c c o r d i n g t o h i m i s n o t

what happened.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o i n o t h e r w o r d s h e w a s s a y in g t h e w h o l e f ir s t

s t a te m e n t w a s w r o n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u a l s o s a i d t h a t y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f t h e

t e l e p h o n e r e c o r d s i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e t e l e p h o n e c a ll t o D r a m a t w a s o n
t h e 4 t h . W h e r e a s th e - t h e r e n d i ti o n to o k p l a c e o n t h e 8 t h . C o u l d y o u
ju s t - d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h ic h m o n t h t h a t w a s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 . T h e c a l l
was made on 4 November 2010.
20

W h e r e a s t h e a c t u a l r e n d i ti o n t o o k

place on 8 November 2010.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t c o n c l u s io n s d i d y o u d r a w fr o m t h a t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

M y c h a l le n g e w i th t h a t w a s t h a t

t h e s e a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t d a te s .

It took almost four days before those

p e o p l e c o u l d b e ta k e n a c r o s s .

I t w o u l d h a v e m a d e s e n s e i f t h a t c a ll

w a s m a d e a t a ti m e w h e n t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e b e i n g r e n d it i o n e d .

Page 119 of 191

It

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w o u ld …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t d o y o u m e a n b y r e n d i ti o n e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

To b e d e p o r t e d il l e g a lly t o b e

h a n d e d o v e r to t h e Z i m b a b w e a n N a ti o n a l .

I f h e h a d s a i d o n th e 8 t h

w h e n M a lu l e k e c a m e - C a p t a i n M a l u l e k e w h o m I a m r e f e r r in g a s
C a p t a i n b u t i n m y s ta t e m e n t m o s tl y i t is - i t is C o l o n e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h y is t h a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t is s i m p ly b e c a u s e w h e n th e

a c t w a s c o m m i t t e d h e w a s C a p t a i n a n d w h e n I o b ta in e d s t a t e m e n t s 10

o b t a i n e d s t a t e m e n t w h ic h r e f le c t t h a t i t is C a p t a i n b u t d u r i n g t h e ti m e
o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n h e w a s p r o m o t e d . H e b e c a m e - b e fo r e i n v e s ti g a t i o n h e
w a s - h e b e c a m e a C o lo n e l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O k a y.

S o j u s t e x p la i n th is d is c r e p a n c y

b e t w e e n 4 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d 8 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 . S o r r y. I i n t e r r u p te d
you.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

F o r m e it w o u ld h a v e m a d e

s e n s e i f t h a t c a ll w a s m a d e w h e n C a p ta i n M a l u l e k e w a s a t th e b o r d e r
with

this

Zi m b a b w e a n

N a ti o n a l

and

then

General Dramat

c a ll e d

C o l o n e l M a d il o n g a a n d s a y p l e a s e my p e o p l e w a n t t o t a k e t h o s e p e o p l e
20

across.
I t w o u l d h a v e m a d e - b u t I c o u l d n o t m a k e th e c o n n e c t io n
b e c a u s e I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t t h e y t a lk a b o u t a n d t h e d e p o r t a ti o n o f th e
r e n d i ti o n d a y w a s d i ffe r e n t f r o m t h e d a y o f th e c a l l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d i f y o u c o u l d j u s t r e m i n d t h e C h a ir w h a t

d i d C o l o n e l M a d il o n g a s a y h a p p e n e d w i t h r e g a r d in g t h i s c a ll o n

Page 120 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
4 November 2010 involving General Drama t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

He said he was - he saw the

b l a c k ( i n d is t in c t) v e h ic l e - M i ts u b is h i a n d t h e n h e a p p r o a c h e d t h e
people and they told him that they want to - to see General Dramat. He
s a i d h e c o n ta c te d h i s s u p e r i o r s s ta r t i n g w it h t h e fir s t o n e . I t h i n k t h a t
w a s a l m o s t t h e j u n i o r a n d t h e n th e i m m e d i a te C o m m a n d e r t o l d h i m th a t
y o u n e e d t o c o n ta c t Br i g a d i e r M a s h u k u w h o w a s t h e s u p e r i o r t o h e r a n d
w h e n h e d i d t h a t h e s a i d B r i g a d i e r M a s h u k u s a id I w a s n e v e r c o n ta c te d
by General Dramat.
10

T h a t t h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o a r e c o m i n g i n t h e c o u n tr y. S o y o u
h a v e t o p h o n e G e n e r a l D r a m a t y o u r s e l f a n d t h a t is c o n s e n t i n th e i r
s t a te m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d y o u h a v e c a u s e t o a n a ly s e c e l l p h o n e
r e c o r d s a s to c o n fir m t h is o r n o t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ye s .

I - I did check the

cellphone records but what I did I could not get - because he said he
u s e d a l a n d li n e b u t I a n a l y s e d t h e - G e n e r a l D r a m a t’s c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d
a n d I c o u l d c o n fir m t h a t th e r e w a s a c a ll th a t w a s m a d e o n t h e 4 t h b u t it
la s t e d v e r y s h o r t. I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e m i n u t e s n o w.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u c a n j u s t a d d r e s s y o u r a n s w e r s t o t h e

C h a ir. Tr y a n d r e m e m b e r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

So I - I cannot remember the

e x a c t d u r a ti o n o f th a t c a l l b u t th e r e w a s a c a l l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d h a v in g r e g a r d to th e s e is s u e s t h a t y o u

s a y c o n c e r n e d y o u w h a t d i d y o u t h in k m a y - m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d ?

Page 121 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
W h a t c o n c lu s i o n s d i d y o u d r a w ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Yo u k n o w a f te r e v e r y t h i n g I

c o u l d s e e th a t i t s e e m s a s th e w h o le i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s a i m e d a t g e t t in g
r id o f - o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t .

W h e n I p u t t h e p ie c e s o f t h e p u z z l e i n

t e r m s o f t h e w r o n g th i n g s t h a t to o k p l a c e i n t e r m s o f th e s ta t e m e n t o f
C o l o n e l M a d il o n g a in t e r m s o f t h e p r e s s u r e h e w a s p u t u n d e r I j u s t
r e a l is e d t h a t i t s e e m s a s th e u l ti m a t e g o a l w a s t o g e t r i d o f
General Dramat.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Yo u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 5 9 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t

t h a t y o u d e c i d e d t o s e n d C o l o n e l M a d il o n g a ’s s t a te m e n t f o r a n a ly s is .
Yo u m e n ti o n e d th is y e s t e r d a y. C o u ld y o u j u s t d e a l w i t h th a t a g a i n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a b o u t i n t h e s ta t e m e n t a r e y o u n o w ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : P a r a g r a p h 5 9 p a g e 1 9 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
R HUMBULANI INNOCENT KHUBA:

Ye s .

I d i d s e n d th e s t a te m e n t o f

C o l o n e l M a d il o n g a f o r a n a l y s is a n d i t is t h e o n l y s t a t e m e n t i n t h e
d o c k e t t h a t I - t h a t I h a d c h a ll e n g e s w i t h a n d s h e d i d n o t t a k e t i m e - t h e
e x p e r t . S h e c a m e b a c k t o m e a n d s h e s e n t a n e m a il t o g e th e r w i th a n
a tt a c h m e n t o f h o w s h e a n a ly s e d t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d th e n s h e in d ic a t e d
20

t h a t t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M a d i l o n g a w a s n o t a tr u t h f u l r e f le c ti o n o f w h a t
happened.
I t - i t f o r s o m e r e a s o n c o n f ir m e d my s u s p ic i o n a n d I s ti ll
r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e I s l ig h tl y b o u n c e d it w i t h a d v o c a t e j u s t in p a s s i n g
a n d h e k i n d o f r e a lly ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t A d v o c a t e M o s i n g ?

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d h e s a i d t o m e w h a t is

s t a te m e n t a n a ly s is . Th e d i s c u s s i o n t o o k v e r y, v e r y s h o r t. H e - h e ju s t
s a i d i f th e - t h e w i tn e s s is n o t r e a lly t e ll i n g t h e tr u t h h e c a n b e
s u b j e c t e d t o c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n . Yo u k n o w a n d - a n d I p r o b a b l y I j u s t
g o t th e s e n t e n c e t h a t h e w a s n o t r e a ll y g e t ti n g t h e s e n s e o f w h a t I w a s
t a lk in g a b o u t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Th is s t a t e m e n t a n a ly s is i f y o u h a v e a r e g a r d

t o y o u r s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t i t is a t - t h e r e is a n a n n e x u r e a t p a g e
3 8 0 . It w il l b e r i g h t a t t h e e n d o f t h e b u n d le . I f y o u c a n h a v e a l o o k a t
that please.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s t h is th e e m a i l t h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is t h e e m a il .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And it says:
“ A t t a c h e d is t h e s t a te m e n t o f M a d i lo n g a .

I did a

s t a te m e n t a n a ly s is s c a n o n i t a n d t h i s s t a t e m e n t is
n o t a tr u th f u l r e fl e c ti o n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d . W e c a n
20

d is c u s s i t la t e r to d a y w h e n I p h o n e y o u . ”
I f y o u c o u l d th e n h a v e r e g a r d to p a g e 6 0 .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I a m t h e r e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s t h is th e s t a t e m e n t a n d t h e a n a ly s is ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u w il l s e e in th e s t a t e m e n t t h a t h e s a y s

Page 123 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
on page 60 halfway down. He says:
“Before

I

was

tr a n s f e r r e d

I

was

w o r k in g

at

B e it b r id g e P o li c e S t a t i o n a s a C o m m a n d e r.
d u t ie s

included

crime

prevention,

li a i s o n

My
with

i m m i g r a t i o n o ffi c i a l s a n d o t h e r p o l ic e o ff i c ia ls fr o m
o th e r s t a ti o n s . ”
Wa s h e s t a t i o n e d a t t h e b o r d e r in Z i m b a b w e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e w a s s t a t i o n e d a t t h e b o r d e r S o u th A fr ic a n s i d e .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e S o u th A fr ic a n s i d e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d is h e s a y i n g t h a t i t is t h e r e th a t h e s a w
t h e Z i m b a b w e a n O ffi c i a l s w h o w a n te d to t a lk t o D r a m a t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s t a te m e n t i s n o t s i g n e d o r is i t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : ( N o a u d ib le r e p l y ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s t a te m e n t is n o t s i g n e d is i t a t p a g e 6 0 ? Is th a t
t h e o n e y o u a r e d e a li n g w it h M s W e n t z e l?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

20

Ye s .

I t is .

C h a ir m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is th a t

w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d is t h a t t h e - t h e s t a te m e n t h a s b e e n a n a ly s e d . S o
it h a s b e e n c o p ie d w o r d f o r w o r d a n d t h e n t h e u s e o f w o r d s is th e n
a n a ly s e d a n d y o u w i ll s e e w i th f o o tn o t e s t h e - t h e e x p e r t ’s a n a ly s is a s
t o w h a t e a c h a s p e c t o f th e - t h e s t a t e m e n t i n d ic a te d t o h e r t o u l t i m a te ly
form a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t a m I r i g h t t o s a y it is n o t s ig n e d ?

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . Th is s ta t e m e n t is n o t s i g n e d b u t I d o n o t
b e li e v e th a t i s t h i s a c t u a l s t a t e m e n t it s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W a s th e r e a - is th e r e a s ig n e d o n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e i s a s ig n e d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i s e x a c t ly t h e s a m e e x c e p t fo r t h e s h a d i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

So

what

when

I

sent

the

s t a te m e n t .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S h e m a d e i t c l e a r t h a t I s h o u ld

n o t s e n d - I n e e d to s e n d th e s o ft c o p y o r s h e ty p e t h e s t a te m e n t
b e c a u s e s h e d o e s t h e t h i n g s in th e s y s t e m . S o I to l d h e r t h a t I to o k t h e s t a t e m e n t w a s t y p e d b y m e b e fo r e h e c o u l d s i g n . S o I s e n t h e r t h e
s o f t c o p y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Can we start now to deal

with …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e l e g a l s ta t u s o f t h a t a n a ly s is ?
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I do not believe that there …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e r e is a l e g a l s ta t u s o f t h a t a n a ly s is .

I

i m a g i n e i t is v e r y m u c h t h e s a m e a s l ie d e t e c t o r s t e s ts a n d v o ic e s t r e s s
t e s ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d …

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e y a r e j u s t I i m a g i n e to o ls u s e d b y

in v e s t i g a t o r s to g e t a s e n s e d o I tr u s t t h i s p e r s o n o r n o t a n d - b u t w e
c a n a d d r e s s t h a t to t h i s w i tn e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I - I d o n o t th i n k w e n e e d t o g o in t o d e t a i ls …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No.
CHAIRPERSON: About …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If it h a s g o t n o le g a l s t a t u s …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t o t h e e x t e n t th a t i t m a y h a v e in f lu e n c e d - th e

a n a ly s is m a y h a v e in f lu e n c e d Mr K h u b a in a n y w a y h e c a n i n d ic a te
w h a t i t i s t h a t i n fl u e n c e d h i m . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d th a t M r K h u b a ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : ( N o a u d i b le r e p ly ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s a y i n g th a t th is - t h e a n a ly s is o f t h e s t a t e m e n t

t h e - t h e le g a l s t a tu s o f t h e a n a ly s is I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t i t a n d
M s W e n t z e l is n o t s u r e a b o u t i t a n d w h a t t h a t m e a n s i s w h e t h e r l e g a ll y
o n e c a n r e ly o n t h a t b u t t o th e e x t e n t th a t i t m a y h a v e - t h e a n a ly s is
m a y h a v e i n fl u e n c e d y o u r t h i n k in g t h e n y o u m a y ju s t i n d ic a t e o n e , t w o ,
t h r e e o r w h a te v e r f e a t u r e s t h a t in f lu e n c e d y o u .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e a n a ly s is I w a s n o t r e a l ly

a w a r e o f i ts l e g a l s ta t u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t w h a t i t h e lp e d m e w a s t o

c h e c k w h a t I w a s d e a li n g w i th …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d a ls o t o a p p r o a c h c e r ta i n

is s u e s w i th c a u ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w in te r ms o f t h e fir s t r e p o r t

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h i s - t h is r e p o r t w a s s o m e h o w

n o t p a r t o f th e - th e d o c k e t . I d i d n o t f il e i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is a n a ly s is ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

t h i s - th e a n a ly s is .

It was - it

was not …
CHAIRPERSON: But …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s n o t i n th e d o c k e t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e t h e f ir s t r e p o r t .

S o it d i d n o t i n fl u e n c e th e

fir s t r e p o r t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a n d d id it a t a n y s ta g e - y o u k n o w g e t i n to
20

t h e d o c k e t e v e n a f t e r th e fir s t r e p o r t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

W h e n I fil e d

o th e r e v i d e n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I i n c lu d e d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y a n d w o u l d i t h a v e in f lu e n c e d th e s e c o n d

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
r e p o r t a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d b e c a u s e I k n o w t h e r e w e r e th r e e
p e o p l e s ig n e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o t - n o t n e c e s s a r i ly.

It was

m e n ti o n e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t i t d id n o t h a v e s u c h a n

i m p a c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s - i t d i d n o t h a v e a s ig n if ic a n t i m p a c t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

I t d i d n o t h a v e t h e s ig n if ic a n t

i m p a c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

But in your own mind it could not be - you did not

d is r e g a r d i t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d i d n o t d is r e g a r d it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u t o o k n o t e o f i t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

B e fo r e I g o o n t o a n e w

t o p ic t h e C h a ir a s k e d d i d y o u r e m e m b e r t h e f ir s t n a m e o f Mr M o y o w h o
y o u r e f e r r e d t o . H a v e y o u r e m e m b e r e d s in c e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t d o y o u r e m e m b e r h i s fi r s t n a m e t o
be?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h i n k i t i s B o n g a n i M o y o .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Bongani Moyo?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u . C h a ir i f I c a n h a v e a n i n d ic a ti o n
of how late you want to sit.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s . L e t u s ta lk a b o u t th a t . I th in k y o u m a y h a v e
in d i c a t e d t o m e b e f o r e th a t y o u t h in k C o lo n e l N a i d o o m i g h t t a k e t w o
days. Is that right?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w h e w a s s u p p o s e d to h a v e s t a r t e d t o d a y a n d

t h e r e f o r e t o m o r r o w w o u l d h a v e b e e n a s e c o n d d a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f - i f h e s t a r ts t o m o r r o w i s h e g o i n g t o g o i n to

Monday?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e p l a n o r …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Or …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e a n o th e r w i t n e s s s c h e d u l e d f o r M o n d a y ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t I u n d e r s ta n d is …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k n e x t w e e k w a s th e w e e k w h e r e c e r t a i n

i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e s c h e d u l e d fo r o r t o g iv e
evidence but I understand that there may have been certain challenges
b u t I a m - I a m g o i n g t o b r i e f e d la t e r a b o u t i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

I a ls o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e a r e s o m e

c h a l le n g e s a n d t h e r e m a y b e s p a c e n e x t w e e k .

Page 129 of 191

I - I a ls o u n d e r s t a n d

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
fr o m M s N o r m a n t h a t t h e r e a r e tw o w i t n e s s e s w h o y o u w o u ld lik e h e r t o
le a d n e x t w e e k .

S h e h a d s o m e c h a l l e n g e s w i t h t h e o n e w i tn e s s w h o

w o u ld o n l y b e a v a i la b le o n th e Tu e s d a y b u t n o t t h e W e d n e s d a y b u t
s u b j e c t t o t h e - t h e o th e r is s u e s a r o u n d t h e c a l e n d a r w h i c h I a m n o t
e n t ir e ly s u r e o f b e i n g s e t t le d .
S h e s a i d s h e w o u l d n o t h a v e a p r o b le m i f C o l o n e l N a id o o
t e s ti fi e d o n th e Fr id a y a n d t h e M o n d a y. Th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

I t h in k th a t s t il l is a n i s s u e t h a t n e e d s t o b e

resolved with the legal team.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh okay well.

W e w i ll fi n a l is e t h e is s u e o f M o n d a y

t o m o r r o w b u t I t h in k i f i t s u it s e v e r y b o d y I a m p r e p a r e d t o s ta y - t o s i t
lo n g e r. C e r t a i n ly u p to f iv e b u t m a y b e u p t o s i x .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m y o u r s i d e h o w d o e s th e s i tu a ti o n l o o k ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir I t h i n k I - I w i ll n e e d a b i t l o n g e r

b e c a u s e I a ls o n e e d t o c a n v a s t h is W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t i n - i n s o m e
d e t a i l a n d h a v i n g r e g a r d t o y o u r in d ic a t i o n e a r l ie r t h i s m o r n i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And - and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u a r e s a y in g y o u a r e a v a il a b l e t o - t o c o n t in u e
u n t il fi v e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d if n e e d b e u n t il s ix ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

I could.

W h a t I m ig h t a s k f o r C h a i r is

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
ju s t s o m e t i m e o v e r n ig h t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

To b e a b l e t o g o t h r o u g h t h is W e r k s m a n s

R e p o r t m o r e c a r e f u lly w i t h th e w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: So that I can …
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe tomorrow morning.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Lead him properly on that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w e c o u l d s ta r t w i t h h i m t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g ju s t
10

t o f in a lis e th o s e a s p e c ts …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e w e s t a r t w i t h C o lo n e l N a id o o .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M r K h u b a h o w is y o u r s it u a ti o n ? I f w e s i t u n ti l
fi v e o r m a y b e e v e n u n t il s ix w o u l d th a t b e c o n v e n i e n t t o y o u o r w o u ld
that be a problem?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t is fi n e w it h m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It i s fi n e w i t h y o u . O k a y. F o r n o w l e t u s s a y l e t u s
s i t - l e t u s t o u p t o f iv e a n d t h e n a t 5 o ’ c l o c k w e w i ll r e v i e w t h e

20

s i tu a ti o n . O k a y, a lr i g h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I now want to deal Mr Khuba in some detail

w i t h w h a t is c a l l e d y o u r fir s t r e p o r t, y o u r a m e n d e d f ir s t r e p o r t a n d t h e n
your second report.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d M s W e n tz e l . A lr i g h t . Ye s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

So I am dealing now from

p a r a g r a p h 6 1 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t p a g e 1 9 o f th e b u n d l e . J u s t s o t h a t y o u
have an idea.

W e k n o w t h a t y o u r fi r s t - t h e f ir s t r e p o r t is d a te d

2 2 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 a n d w e w i ll g o th e r e i n a m in u t e b u t c o u l d y o u p l e a s e
t e ll t h e C h a ir u n d e r w h a t c i r c u ms t a n c e s t h a t s o c a ll e d f ir s t r e p o r t w a s
prepared?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Thank

you.

W h il e

I

was

in v e s t i g a t in g t h e c a s e I w a s p r e p a r in g a r e p o r t i n a f o r m o f ty p i n g t h e
10

s t a te m e n ts . N o w s o m e o f t h e s e s t a t e m e n t s t h a t I o b t a i n e d w h e r e I g o t
a n o p p o r t u n i ty to ty p e t h e m w h il e i n te r v i e w i n g t h e w it n e s s . In s t e a d o f
ju s t e v a lu a ti n g a n d t a k in g a c e r t a i n p a r t o f t h a t s t a t e m e n t I w o u l d c o p y
it t h e w a y i t i s i n to t h e - t h e r e p o r t.
I w il l i n d ic a t e t h e n a m e o f t h e w it n e s s a n d t h e c a t e g o r y i n
w h ic h i t i s f il e d in t h e d o c k e t a n d t h e n I w ill le a v e th e i n f o r m a ti o n
t h e r e . S o t h e r e p o r t b e c o m e s s o v o lu m i n o u s b e c a u s e o f th a t b u t t h e r e ,
t h e r e w i ll b e th i n g s t h a t I c h a n g e .

F o r e x a m p le b e c a u s e t h e w i t n e s s

w i ll s a y I . T h e n I - b e c a u s e i t is i n a r e p o r t I w il l s a y h e o r s h e b u t p u t
e x a c tl y t h e s a m e t h in g th a t th e p e r s o n s a i d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u ju s t c h a n g e i t a n d p u t i n t h e th ir d p e r s o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s …

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e i t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t

t h a t y o u s u m m a r is e th e s t a te m e n t i n t e r m s o f o u r p o lic y w h ic h n o w h a s
changed.

S o I w o u l d p u t th a t b e c a u s e I d id n o t w a n t t o g o in t o y o u

k n o w a l o t o f w o r k a t t h e e n d o f th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d a t s o m e ti m e s
w h e n I l o o k a t th e d o c k e t i t h a d a l m o s t 9 0 s o m e t h i n g s ta t e m e n ts .
S o it w a s n o t a n e a s y t h i n g to d o a t o n c e . S o I a m j u s t d o i n g
it g r a d u a lly. N o w t h a t r e p o r t I w o u l d u p d a te i t b u t I s t a r t e d to s h a r e i t
w i t h t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s g u i d i n g th e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e in v e s ti g a t io n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In v e s ti g a ti o n - A d v o c a t e M o s in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. J u s t b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d . J u s t n o w w h a t y o u

w e r e s a y in g a b o u t s ta t e m e n ts w a s t h a t - w a s t h a t i n r e la t io n t o
s t a te m e n ts g o i n g to t h e d o c k e t o r w a s t h a t w h a t y o u - w a s g o i n g t o a
r e p o r t o r d i ff e r e n t r e p o r t s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o . I t w a s t h e s t a te m e n t g o i n g

in t o t h e d o c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e n I w i ll - i f t h a t s ta t e m e n t i s
20

ty p e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th e n c o m m is s i o n e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W h a t w o u l d h a p p e n i s th a t t h e

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I h a v e …

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I n t h e c o m p u t e r I w il l c o p y th e

e n t ir e s ta t e m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In t o th e r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh to prepare the report?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To p r e p a r e th e r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. S o y o u r r e p o r t w o u l d c o n s is t to a v e r y
la r g e e x t e n t t o - o f t h e s a m e m a t e r i a l t h a t i s - o f t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e
10

v a r io u s s t a t e m e n t s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e n I s ta r t e d to s h a r e t h e

s t a te m e n t o r th e - t h e r e p o r t r a t h e r w i t h m y p a r t n e r C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e
a n d th e a d v o c a t e w h o w a s g u i d i n g th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

J u s t s o m e t h i n g b a s ic w h e n y o u c o n d u c t a n

in v e s t i g a t io n s u c h a s t h is a n d y o u t a lk a b o u t a d o c k e t i n th e c o n te x t o f
I P I D w o u l d y o u h a v e , w o u ld t h e d o c k e t h a v e c o m e fr o m I P I D a n d w h e n
y o u s u b mi t t h e d o c k e t t o t h e N PA y o u a c t u a ll y s u b m i t t h e I P I D d o c k e t
20

a s i t w e r e t o t h e N PA , o r w o u l d t h e N PA h a v e t h e ir o w n d o c k e t a n d y o u
ju s t s u b m i t t h e c o n t e n ts o f y o u r d o c k e t t o t h e m , t o t h e i r d o c k e t a n d y o u
r e m a in w i t h y o u r d o c k e t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w ill b e t h e s a m e d o c k e t , w h e n
w e u p l if t t h e d o c k e t f r o m . . . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e N PA ?

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e N PA , n o , n o fr o m t h e S A P S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n w o u ld
h a v e s t a r t e d b y S A P S , t h e y r e g is t e r e d t h e c a s e , t h e n th e y o p e n a
d o c k e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h e n w e g o to u p l i ft t h e d o c k e t
w e w ill t a k e th a t d o c k e t t h e w a y i t i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s i t is y e s .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And

then

we

w o u ld

e i th e r

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : A d d s t a te m e n t s t o i t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A d d s t a te m e n t t o i t o r p u t i t

in s i d e I P I D d o c k e t, b u t t h a t ti m e I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r w e h a d I P I D
d o c k e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B e c a u s e w e h a d a c h a l le n g e

w h e r e w h e n t h e D P P d e c id e o n th e c a s e , a n d i t h a d t o b e r e t u r n e d b a c k
t h e y w i ll l o o k a t t h e s t a ti o n a n d s a y a s ta t i o n a n d w e e n d u p n o t g e tt i n g
20

that docket.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o w e c a m e t o th e d e c is io n to

s a y i f th e n i t is a d o c k e t , S A P S d o c k e t w e w il l ta k e t h e c o v e r o f t h a t
d o c k e t a n d t h e n p u t i t i n o u r d o c k e t , i t w i ll a l w a y s r e m a in o u r d o c k e t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , y e s , s o th a t t h e y k n o w t h e y m u s t r e f e r –

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
t h e y m u s t s e n d i t b a c k to y o u a n d y o u a r e th e o n e s w h o w i ll s e n d i t t o
t h e s t a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y, s o b u t b e f o r e t h a t s y s t e m y o u w o r k e d

w i t h a n S A P S d o c k e t, y o u w o u l d w o r k w i t h a n S A P S d o c k e t t h a t c a m e
fr o m t h e S A P S , i f t h is – t h e m a t t e r s t a r t e d w i t h t h e S A P S ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t, in f a c t i n th is

c a s e I to o k , b e c a u s e t h e d o c k e t w a s v o lu m i n o u s , I h a d t o t a k e t h e
a c t u a l d o c k e t c o v e r, c u t i t n i c e ly, p u t i t o n th e p o c k e t o f a n
10

. . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] s o th e y w e r e h a v i n g o n th e o u ts i d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, yes.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t it w a s n o t I P I D d o c k e t i t w a s
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t l e v e r a r c h f il e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A n d w h e n y o u s u b m i t te d t h e d o c k e t t o t h e
N PA y o u w e r e e ff e c t iv e ly s u b mi t t in g e it h e r a l e v e r a r c h f il e o r m o r e
t h a n l e v e r a r c h fil e s b u t w it h t h e d o c k e t c o v e r o n t h e o u ts i d e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr K h u b a w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f c o m p il in g

a report?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A r e p o r t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t o f

t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o s a y y o u n e e d to s i m p l if y s o th a t w h e n e v e r a p e r s o n
b e f o r e h e r e a d s t h e d o c k e t h e m a y h a v e t o ju s t b r o w s e t h r o u g h t o s a y

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w h e r e d o I fi n d t h i s s ta t e m e n t i n t h e d o c k e t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w w e w e r e a ls o r e q u ir e d t o

m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , t h e y w o u l d s a y y o u m a y n o t b e le g a l ly q u a li fi e d
b u t u s e y o u r o p i n i o n a n d e x p r e s s y o u r o p i n i o n in t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n
r e p o r t , a n d th e y w o u l d n o t w a n t y o u to s a y I w o u l d w a n t y o u t o – I
r e c o m m e n d t h a t y o u t a k e a d e c i s i o n , t h e y w il l s a y e v a lu a t e y o u r s e l f ,
t h e y a r e n o t b o u n d b y t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b u t . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] t o e x p r e s s
t h a t b e c a u s e o f o n e , t w o , t h r e e I r e c o m m e n d th a t t h i s p e r s o n b e
10

c h a r g e d c r i m i n a ll y.

N o w t h a t h a s c u r r e n tly c h a n g e d , a ft e r w e w e r e

c h a r g e d , w e n o l o n g e r s u m m a r is e t h e s t a t e m e n t , w e n o l o n g e r
r e c o m m e n d i n t e r m s o f s p e c i fi c s , f o r u s j u s t to s a y th e s e a r e t h e
s t a te m e n ts in t h e d o c k e t , i t is A 1 , A 2 , A 3 a n d w e m e n ti o n t h e n a m e o f
t h e s e p e o p l e , a n d th e n a t t h e b o tt o m t h e r e w e r e c o m m e n d t h a t y o u ta k e
d e c is i o n i n t h is m a t t e r, w h e t h e r th e d o c k e t m a y b e a l m o s t t e n o r fi f t e e n
o r tw e n ty a r c fi le s t h e r e p o r t m a y r e m a i n t w o p a g e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s b e c a u s e o f t h e e x p e r i e n c e w h e n t h e th r e e o f
y o u w e r e c h a r g e d b e c a u s e o f th o s e t w o r e p o r t s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o i n a w a y c h a r g i n g y o u h a d a n e g a ti v e e ff e c t i n
t h e s e n s e t h a t t h e N PA n o w n o l o n g e r h a s t h e b e n e fi t o f y o u r o w n
a n a ly s is a n d v ie w s o f w h a t y o u t h i n k e v e n i f t h e y w e r e n o t g o i n g t o b e
bound by that.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u n o w ju s t t h r o w e v e r y t h in g to t h e m a n d s a y

Page 137 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
e ffe c tiv e l y y o u s t u d y th e d o c k e t a n d m a k e a d e c is io n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o i f w e h a v e r e g a r d t o t h i s f ir s t r e p o r t o f t h e
2 2 n d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 a n d if y o u h a v e a l o o k a t A n n e x u r e 8 p a g e 6 8 a ll
t h e w a y th r o u g h t o p a g e 1 0 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say page 68?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON: Up to what page?
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 102.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Is t h a t y o u r fir s t r e p o r t ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Now

before

we

have

a

look

at

your

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s i n t h a t r e p o r t d id y o u s u b m i t t h i s r e p o r t t o t h e N PA ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h o d id y o u s u b m i t i t t o ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A d v o c a te M o s i n g .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

A n d d i d y o u d is c u s s t h is r e p o r t , o r r e c e i v e d

in p u t o n th e r e p o r t fr o m A d v o c a t e M o s i n g a s t o t h e c o n te n t o f t h e
report?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o u l d y o u j u s t g iv e s o m e d e ta il in t h a t

regard please.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e ju s t b e f o r e th a t w e h a v e b e e n r e f e r r in g t o th is

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
r e p o r t a s t h e f ir s t r e p o r t , b u t w a s i t y o u r f i r s t r e p o r t o r w e r e t h e r e o th e r
r e p o r t s b e f o r e i t , i t is j u s t th a t i t is o n e , i t is th e f ir s t o f tw o r e p o r t s th a t
a r e i n is s u e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f r e p o r ts
that I sent.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h is o n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e f o r e t h i s o n e , b e c a u s e I w o u ld
take the report to him and sometimes when I instead of him having to
r e a d t h e s t a te m e n t I w il l j u s t t a k e th e e n t ir e s t a t e m e n t i n t o t h a t r e p o r t
10

a n d h e w il l r e a d t h e r e p o r t , w e w i ll s i t d o w n w i th a ls o C o lo n e l
Moukangwe and discuss and they would advise me in terms of what are
t h e i m p o r t a n t is s u e s th a t I n e e d to h i g h li g h t a n d d u r in g t h a t d is c u s s i o n
I noted that.

I t is ju s t t h a t I c o u ld n o t g e t s o m e c o p i e s o f th e r e p o r t

w h e r e I th in k o n s o m e o f th e m h e w o u l d w r it e w i th h is p e n t o s a y th is is
w h e r e I w a n t y o u to h i g h l i g h t c e r t a i n is s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mmm.

I s th e r e a n y th i n g t h a t m a k e s t h i s s o - c a l le d

fir s t r e p o r t d i ffe r e n t fr o m a n y o f th e e a r li e r r e p o r ts ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e e a r l ie r r e p o r ts w e r e s l ig h tl y
d i ff e r e n t b e c a u s e o f t h e a m o u n t o f e v id e n c e th a t w a s g o in g in , b u t i t
20

w a s ju s t a b u il d - u p , i t w a s a b u il d - u p t h a t is w h a t I c a n s a y t h e
d i ff e r e n c e w e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e t h e o t h e r e a r l ie r r e p o r ts m a r k e d in t e r i m r e p o r ts
in a n y w a y o r w a s a n y te r m u s e d t o s u g g e s t t h a t t h e y w e r e w o r k in
p r o g r e s s o r t h e y w e r e n o t fi n a l r e p o r ts , w a s – is t h e r e a n y th in g t h a t
e i t h e r w a s w r it t e n o n th e m t o s u g g e s t th a t o r w a s i t – w o u l d i t h a v e

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b e e n c l e a r fr o m a n y b o d y r e a d in g th e m t h a t th e y w e r e n o t f in a l r e p o r ts ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

No there was nothing that I

c o u l d s a y t h a t I p u t – u n l e s s if i t w a s o n t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n , I c a n n o t
r e m e m b e r, b u t I t h in k w h a t w a s d i ff e r e n t f r o m t h i s o n e is t h a t t h is o n e I
s ig n e d i t a n d t h e o t h e r s I w il l j u s t p r o d u c e t h e m t h e w a y t h e y w e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh the other ones were not signed?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e y w e r e n o t s i g n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e w a s
a n u n d e r s t a n d in g b e t w e e n y o u r s e lf a n d A d v o c a t e M o s i n g w i t h r e g a r d to
10

t h e e a r l ie r r e p o r ts th a t th e y c o u l d n o t b e fi n a l ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e w a s a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g a n d
I t h i n k I n e e d t o s a y t h is C h a ir p e r s o n th a t w h a t m a d e m e to b e m o r e
c o m f o r t a b l e a n d r e l a x e d w a s th e i s s u e t h a t I t h o u g h t h e w a s t h e o n e
w h o w a s g o i n g t o d e c id e o n t h e c a s e .

For me it was just an issue of

w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r a n d m y . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n y o u th o u g h t h e w a s th e o n e w h o w a s g o i n g
t o m a k e a d e c is i o n w h e t h e r t o p r o s e c u t e o r n o t t o p r o s e c u t e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d I tr u s t e d h i m b e c a u s e w h e n
y o u h a v e a n in v e s ti g a t io n g u i d e d b y a p r o s e c u t o r y o u s ta r t t o
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t th e e y e o f l o o k i n g a t i t i t is p r o s e c u ti o n d r iv e n , s o –
a n d q u it e o f t e n I h a d b e e n d o in g i n v e s ti g a ti o n f o r a l o n g ti m e , w h e r e
s o m e t i m e s I l e a r n in a h a r d w a y, w h e r e y o u w o u l d t r y to p u s h t o s a y I
h a v e t h i s e v i d e n c e , t h is e v id e n c e , t h is e v id e n c e , a n d th e p r o s e c u t o r

Page 140 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s a y s w o w I a m t h e o n e th a t is g o in g to s ta n d t h e r e .

What you are

s a y in g I c a n n o t b e a b l e t o p r o v e , s o I h a v e l e a r n t t o ju s t c o n s u m e
h u m b l e p i e w h e n i t c o m e s t o c e r ta in o p i n i o n s a b o u t t h e v a l u e o f
s p e c i f ic e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

So you say between the two of you, you were

s a ti s f i e d t h a t h e k n e w o r w o u l d h a v e k n o w n t h a t th o s e w e r e n o t f i n a l
reports, the earlier ones.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y, a lr i g h t, a n d w i th r e g a r d t o t h is o n e is t h e r e

a n y th in g th a t w o u l d h a v e t o l d h i m w h e t h e r t h is o n e w a s f i n a l o r n o t
fi n a l , w h e n h e b y lo o k i n g a t i t o r r e a d in g i t l e a v in g o u t w h a t e v e r t h e t w o
o f y o u m a y h a v e d is c u s s e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e i s s u e i s th a t t h e p r e v i o u s

r e p o r t I a m n o t s u r e o f t h e o n e s h o r tl y b e f o r e t h i s o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h is o n e y e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t w e w o r k e d o n t h is r e p o r t a n d
w e h a d b e e n w o r k i n g o n i t a s a d r a f t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n t h e t w o o f y o u , A d v o c a t e M o s i n g – o h n o ,
y o u r s e l f a n d y o u r p a r t n e r.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I

was

a ls o

with

Colonel

Moukangwe.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s ja , y o u r p a r t n e r i n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o r a

member of your team.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

The

I n t e lli g e n c e w h o m I s a y .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

Page 141 of 191

one

was

fr o m

Crime

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y o h o k a y ja , i s t h a t t h e o n e y o u a r e n o t

s u p p o s e d to . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e o n e y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o k e e p s e c r e t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . S o t h e tw o o f y o u h a d b e e n w o r k i n g o n i t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e th r e e o f u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h o is t h e t h ir d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

It is Advocate Mosing and it is

C o l o n e l M o u k a n g w e a n d o n e t i m e I th in k A d v o c a t e B i ll in o w i tz [ ? ] w a s
a ls o p a r t o f t h a t b e c a u s e h e w o u l d , h e w a s n o t r e g u la r i n o u r m e e ti n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e fr o m t h e N PA t o o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, s o a r e y o u s a y in g t h e r e f o r e th a t t h is f ir s t r e p o r t
w a s t h e p r o d u c t o f t h e f o u r o f y o u w o r k i n g to g e th e r b u t o n e o f y o u t h a t
y o u h a v e j u s t m e n ti o n e d w a s n o t r e g u l a r, b u t th e th r e e o f y o u w e r e
r e g u la r ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u .

20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W a s i t u s u a l fo r y o u t o p r e p a r e a n I P I D

r e p o r t t o g e t h e r w it h th e N PA ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

It wasn’t because at the time

w h e n I s t a r t e d t o o p e n u p f u l ly t o M r S e s o k o a n d a ls o s p o k e to M c B r i d e
I s t il l r e m e m b e r M c Br i d e s a y in g t o m e I P I D m a k e s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o
N PA a n d n o t w i t h N PA .

S o I f o u n d th a t i t w a s a v a l id p o i n t, i t w a s a

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
v a l i d p o i n t , b u t I t h i n k s o m e ti m e s i t b e c o m e s s o – y o u b e c o m e
c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t t h e li n e s a r e b lu r r e d y o u c a n n o t r e a ll y s e e , y o u t a l k ,
y o u l a u g h , y o u s h a r e l u n c h t h e r e , i t d o e s n o t b e c o m e li k e s o m e t h i n g
t h a t p r o t o c o l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u e n d u li k e y o u a r e a t e a m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d c o u l d y o u t e ll t h e C h a ir h o w s e n i o r a n

a d v o c a t e w a s A d v o c a t e M o s in g ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W h e n I w a s i n tr o d u c e d to h i m I

w a s to ld t h a t h e i s t h e h e a d o f S p e c ia l O p e r a t io n . N o w th a t p a r t t o l d
m e t h a t I w a s n o t d e a l i n g w i th a j u s t o r d i n a r y p r o s e c u t o r. I w a s d e a li n g
w i t h s o m e b o d y v e r y, v e r y, v e r y s e n i o r, t o s u c h a n e x te n t th a t e v e n a n
o p p o r t u n i ty t o t h r o w a n o p i n io n I w il l h a v e in t e r n a l a s s e s s m e n t o f th a t
t o s a y I d o n o t w a n t t o m a k e m y s e l f a s s t u p id a s . . . w i ll it b e r i g h t to
a s k t h e s e q u e s t i o n s , b e c a u s e I w a s n o t d e a l in g w i t h a j u n i o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

A n d i n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r d is c u s s i o n s a b o u t

y o u r r e p o r t a n d b e i n g t o l d a m e n d t h is , a d d th is , c h a n g e y o u s a i d i n
manuscript,

was

it

made

c le a r

to

you

what

your

u lt i m a t e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s h o u l d b e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t o n ly t o
d e a l w it h t h e b o d y o f th e r e p o r t , i t w e n t d o w n t o th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t w e r e y o u to l d w h e n y o u w e r e

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
d e a li n g w it h th a t , w h a t w a s d i s c u s s e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e e v id e n c e th a t w e w e r e

d is c u s s in g w a s t h e is s u e o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t o n a n u m b e r o f a s p e c ts
t h a t I h a v e a lr e a d y a l lu d e d t o , w h ic h in c l u d e t h e s t a te m e n t o f
M a d i l o n g a , t h e C I m e m b e r s ta t e m e n ts , a s w e ll a s t h e p r o g r e s s o r
s u c c e s s r e p o r ts .

N o w w h e n i t c a m e t o t h e is s u e o f G e n e r a l S ib iy a i t

w a s b a s ic a l ly t h e is s u e o f w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n ts a n d t h e r e w a s a ls o a n
is s u e t h a t b e c a u s e I d i d a 2 0 5 , w h e n w e c h e c k e d w e f o u n d th a t o n e o f
t h e p e r s o n s w h o w a s d o in g o p e r a t i o n c o n ta c t e d , I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e a
10

n u m b e r o f c a lls b u t t h e y w e r e n o t q u it e fr e q u e n t a s s u c h , b u t t h e r e
w e r e a n u m b e r o f c o n t a c ts b e t w e e n G e n e r a l S i b i y a w i th t h a t C o l o n e l
a n d w h e n h e d u r in g o u r d is c u s s i o n i t w a s in d i c a t e d th a t i t m e a n s t h a t
h e w a s r e p o r ti n g p r o g r e s s o f h o w th e y w e r e a r r e s ti n g th e Zi m b a b w e a n
N a t io n a l .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

So if you go to the end of your report at page

1 0 1 o f t h e b u n d le y o u w i ll s e e th a t t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h e r e f r o m y o u
is

based

on

th e

a v a i l a b le

evidence,

the

Independent

P o l ic e

I n v e s ti g a t iv e D i r e c t o r a t e r e c o m m e n d s t h a t L t G e n e r a l D r a m a t , M a j o r
G e n e r a l Si b iy a , L t C o lo n e l M a l e l e k a , C o n s t a b le R a d e b e , C a p t a in N k o s i
20

a n d Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r M c C a u w b e c h a r g e d c r i mi n a l ly fo r :
1. Kidnapping, and
2 . D e f e a ti n g t h e e n d s o f j u s t ic e , a n d
3 . A s s a u l t a n d th e f t , o n ly a p p lic a b l e to C a p t a i n M a l e le k a , W a r r a n t
O ff ic e r Mc C a u w a n d C o n s t a b l e R a d e b e a n d C a p ta in N k o s i .
Wa s t h a t y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?

Page 144 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d i s t h a t y o u r s ig n a tu r e o n t h a t r e p o r t?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And could you explain to the Chair why did

y o u s i g n t h is r e p o r t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y w h y d id y o u ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I asked why did he sign this report.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : D u r in g D e c e m b e r i t w a s t h e ti m e
10

w h e n I w a s s u b j e c te d t o a l o t o f p r e s s u r e t h a t h e w a n t e d t h e r e p o r t ,
and he wanted the docket.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Sorry who is he?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A d v o c a te M o s i n g .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d I k e p t o n g iv in g e x c u s e s t o
s a y b u t th e y w e r e n o t – t h e y w e r e v a li d e x c u s e s b e c a u s e I w a s
p r e o c c u p ie d i n t h e o ffic e . N u m b e r o n e i t w a s a n i s s u e o f s a y i n g I w a s
b u s y w i t h a n u n r e s t e d . . . [i n d i s t i n c t ] a n d I h a d t o h e l p m y o ff ic e t o m e e t
t h e s tr a t e g ic o b j e c tiv e s .
20

N o w t h e b ig g e s t c h a ll e n g e w a s th a t o n e ti m e I f e l t I n e e d t o
g iv e t h is p e r s o n w h a t h e w a n t e d , e v e n th o u g h t h e t h i n g s w e r e n o t r e a ll y
c o m p le t e , b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t h e j u s t w a n t e d p r o b a b ly w h a t is t h e r e i s
e n o u g h f o r h i m t o t a k e a d e c is i o n , a n d t h e n I i n d ic a t e d t o h i m t h a t I
h a v e a p r o b le m w it h t h e r e p o r t b e c a u s e I w a s n o t r e a l ly s i g n i n g t h e s e
r e p o r t s a n d I s a id i t n e e d s t o b e s ig n e d b y t h e h e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t ,

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s o a t t h a t ti m e M s K o e k ie M b e k i w a s n o lo n g e r c o m i n g t o t h e o ff ic e , a s
I h a v e a lr e a d y a l lu d e d e a r l ie r s h e s e n t a m e s s a g e t h r o u g h h e r PA t h a t
s h e w a s o n ly a b l e t o s ig n fi n a n c i a l r e la t e d d o c u m e n ts .
N o w I h a d a p r o b l e m to s a y w h a t d o I n o w. I a s k e d h i m a n d h e
s a i d n o y o u c a n s i g n th e r e p o r t a n d s e n d i t. T h e n I s i g n e d t h e r e p o r t
a n d s e n t t o h i m , b u t t h a t p a r t I c o u l d n o t h a v e a f u l l r e c o ll e c t io n o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s i g n i n g p a r t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e s i g n i n g o f th e r e p o r t .

On

t h e r e a s o n t h a t th e r e w e r e a lo t o f r e p o r t s t h a t I s e n t t o – th a t
10

e x c h a n g e d h a n d s b e t w e e n m e a n d h i m a n d a ls o w h e n I w a s q u e r i e d
a b o u t th e r e p o r t b y M r S e s o k o a n d Mr M c B r id e it w a s n o t a b o u t w h e t h e r
I s e n t t h e r e p o r t t o N P, t h a t w a s c l e a r t h a t I s e n t th e r e p o r t , b u t i t w a s
w h e t h e r I s i g n e d t h e r e p o r t a n d th a t w a s i n 2 0 1 5 w h e n t h e y w e r e a s k in g
t h o s e q u e s t i o n s w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a r e p o r t .
N o w t h e i s s u e t h e r e w a s th a t w h e n I w e n t t o c o l le c t th e d o c k e t
fr o m A d v o c a te v a n Zy l w e p e r u s e d t h a t d o c k e t t o g e t h e r, t h e r e w a s n o
r e p o r t , b u t i f t h e r e p o r t w a s t h e r e i t c o u l d h a v e – i n f a c t th e y w o u l d n ’ t
h a v e a s k e d t h e q u e s t io n , b e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d h a v e f o u n d i t w h e n w e
w e r e d o i n g t h e r e v ie w o f t h a t e v i d e n c e a n d a ls o p r e p a r i n g t h e f in a l

20

report.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

So you say that when you fetched the docket

a n d w e a r e g o in g t o d e a l w i th t h e s e q u e n c e l a t e r, w e f o u n d t h a t t h i s
w h a t w e a r e c a l li n g t h e f ir s t r e p o r t w a s n o t i n th e d o c k e t .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W h a t w a s in t h e d o c k e t b y w a y o f a r e p o r t ?

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, is t h a t n o w – a r e y o u a t a s t a g e w h e r e y o u
a r e d e a li n g w i th t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t n o w ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

No.

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is s ti ll t h i s r e p o r t?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W h a t w a s in t h e d o c k e t , w h e n

w e p e r u s e d t h e d o c k e t w e fo u n d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s is n o w b e fo r e c o m p ili n g th e fir s t r e p o r t o r w h e n
t h e fi r s t r e p o r t w a s r e a d y ? W h a t w a s t h e s t a g e w h e r e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I

think

let

me

put

it

in

p e r s p e c t iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w i ll s t a r t f r o m w h e r e i t s t a r t e d
fir s t.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m tr y i n g t o k e e p m y e y e o n t h e ti m e s a n d t h e

ti m e f r a m e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

s t a r t e d fir s t.

Let

me

s ta r t

where

things

N o w a f te r t h e s u b m is s i o n o f t h e d o c k e t a n d th e r e p o r t

t h e n I s ta r t e d g e t ti n g e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n y o u s a y a n d r e p o r t y o u m e a n a n d t h e f ir s t
report?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e fir s t r e p o r t a n d th e r e p o r t , I
s a i d a n d t h e r e p o r t , I m e a n t h e f ir s t r e p o r t .

Page 147 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Now what happened was that in

f a c t w h e n I s e n t t h a t r e p o r t I w a s c o n s ta n t ly c a l li n g th e e x p e r t w h o w a s
a n a ly s in g th e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s o f G e n e r a l S i b i y a .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d h e t o ld m e t h a t h e w a s

d o i n g a b u s i n e s s o f w a t e r, s e tt i n g p la n ts f o r w a t e r, B o ts w a n a a n d a
n u m b e r o f c o u n tr i e s . Th e n h e t o l d m e t h a t h e w a s b u s y i n t h e p r o j e c t ,
h e c o u l d n o t h a v e t i m e t o fi n i s h b u t n o w h e i s d o n e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

H e h a s g o t , h e h a s d o n e th e

p l o t ti n g , a n d u n f o r tu n a t e ly h e h a d t h a t n e w s fo r m e , a n d h e s a i d
G e n e r a l S ib iy a w a s n o t a t Fo u r w a y s a s a ll e g e d b y w i t n e s s e s , a n d h e
w a s n o t a t D i e p s l o o t a s a ll e g e d b y w i tn e s s e s .
N o w w h e n I g o t t h a t in f o r m a t io n t h e r e p o r t h a d a lr e a d y g o n e
b u t I ju s t f e l t le t m e s e n d s o m e t h i n g t o M r S e s o k o b e c a u s e I u s e d t o
s e n d a r e p o r t f o r h i m t o t a k e i t S e c r e t a r ia t f o r u p d a t e .

N o w I d id

another report and I s ent an email on the 23rd, the report for Advocate
M o s i n g w a s d e s p a t c h e d o n t h e 2 2 n d . O n t h e 2 3 r d , t h e f o ll o w i n g d a y, I
20

d i d a r e p o r t t h a t h a d a c h a n g e in r e c o m m e n d a t io n , i t s a y s I s t il l
r e c o m m e n d e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t, b u t w h e n I c a m e t o G e n e r a l S i b iy a
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u s ti ll r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t a c ti o n – t h a t G e n e r a l
Dramat be charged?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t w it h G e n e r a l S i b i y a I s a i d I

d o n o t r e c o m m e n d a n y c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s a g a in s t G e n e r a l S i b iy a
b e c a u s e th e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s h a s s h o w n th a t h e w a s n o t a t t h e
scene.

T h a t is h o w I p u t i t .

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

N o w th a t r e p o r t I ju s t s e n t it , I

le f t lik e t h a t , n o w t h e r e w a s a t i m e I g o t n o w t h e r e s p o n s e o f G e n e r a l
S i b iy a , h e s e n t h is w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n t, h e s e n t th e w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t
10

t h r o u g h th e PA , I g o t i t , t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e o f h a n d b e tw e e n th e – M r
S e s o k o a n d t h e PA o n t h a t r e p o r t a n d i t e n d e d u p c o m i n g t o m e , t h e n
w h e n I g o t t h a t r e p o r t I t h e n s e n t i t to A d v o c a te M o s i n g t o s h o w I h a v e
t h e n e w e v i d e n c e a n d t h a t t i m e I h a d a lr e a d y k n o w n a b o u t t h e c e ll
phone records.

Now when I sent that report – those responses he

r e s p o n d e d t o m e o n a n e m a il d a t e d 2 8 t h F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 , a n d i t w a s j u s t
s h o r tl y a f te r a m o n th , a ft e r I s e n t t h e fi r s t r e p o r t , to s a y t h a t I h a v e
a c q u ir e d t h is e v i d e n c e a n d h e s a i d th e d o c k e t i s n o t w i t h h i m , i t is i n
G a u t e n g , b u t I g o t a n i n d i c a t io n t h a t i t w a s w it h A d v o c a t e v a n Z y l i n
Gauteng.
20

T h e n I t o o k t h a t e m a il a s i t s a y in g t o m e I n e e d to g o a n d

c o l l e c t t h is d o c k e t , s o th a t I c a n a tt a c h th e e v i d e n c e .
M c Br i d e a c c o r d in g t o m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e n s t a r t e d w o r k i n g
o n t h e 3 r d , s o m e w h e r e t h e r e , o n t h e 3 r d o f M a r c h a n d t h e n I w a s c a ll e d
I t h i n k i t w a s o n t h e 5 t h to b r i e f h i m o n h i g h p r o f il e c a s e s , s o i n t h e
D e p a r t m e n t w e h a d t w o m a i n h i g h p r o f il e c a s e s , i t w a s t h e r e n d i ti o n
c a s e , a s w e ll a s t h e C a t o M a n o r c a s e w h ic h I i n v e s ti g a te d e a r li e r b u t it

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w a s t h e n h a n d e d o v e r t o a d ir e c t o r fr o m M p u m a l a n g a , G l e n A n g u s .
S o w h e n w e b r i e f e d h i m w e w e r e t o g e t h e r. O n th e 5 t h h e w a s
t h e o n e w h o s ta r t e d . H e b r i e f e d h i m a b o u t C a t o M a n o r. I t t o o k s o m e
ti m e b u t I w a s j u s t l is te n in g .

T h e n m y o p p o r t u n i ty c a m e .

Th e n I

b r i e f e d h i m a b o u t th e r e n d i ti o n i n v e s ti g a ti o n b u t b e c a u s e I w a s th e
s e c o n d i n t e r m s o f b r ie f in g I c o u l d n o t fi n is h a n d h e s a i d w e w i ll m e e t
t h e f o l lo w i n g d a y.
That was on the 6th.

N o w d u r i n g th e b r ie f in g I r e m e m b e r

M r S e s o k o w a s t h e r e . T h e is s u e o f n o t i n v o lv i n g h i m I i n d ic a te d t h a t .
10

T h e i s s u e o f c o ll a b o r a ti o n w i th th e C I O ffi c i a l C o lo n e l M o u k a n g w e .

I

in d i c a t e d th a t . N o w I s t ill r e m e m b e r v iv i d ly w h e n i t c o m e t o t h e is s u e
o f e x c l u d i n g M r S e s o k o th a t M r M c B r i d e s a y s i f i n th is d e p a r t m e n t I
g iv e y o u t h is i n s tr u c t io n p l e a s e r e f u s e a n d I d id n o t s a y a n y t h i n g .
I ju s t lo o k e d a t h i m o n t h e b a s is th a t w h e n y o u a r e a
s u b o r d in a ti o n s o m e ti m e s t h e r e i t is g r e y li n e b e c a u s e y o u l o o k a t w h a t I
a m b e in g to ld t o d o . D o e s i t c o n s ti t u t e m i s c o n d u c t o r c o n tr a v e n ti o n o r
a n y p o l ic y o f th e d e p a r t m e n t?

T h e r e a r e th i n g s t h a t y o u lo o k a t a n d

s a y t h is is n o t - i t is n o t r ig h t . T h e r e is s o m e t h i n g n o t r i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u m e a n w h e n y o u g e t g i v i n g a n in s t r u c t i o n

s o m e t i m e s y o u - y o u lis t e n t o o r lo o k a t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n a n d s a y t h i s
in s t r u c t i o n is n o t r i g h t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

It - i t is - i t is u n la w f u l .

I t i s i ll e g a l o r it m i g h t b e

c o n tr a r y t o t h e p o li c i e s o f th e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d i f I w e r e t o d o i t I m a y
b e c o m m i t t i n g m is c o n d u c t. Is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t?

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h a t I a m s a y i n g i s th a t t h e r e is
s o m e in s t r u c t i o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t m a y n o t b e r i g h t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t n o t n e c e s s a r i ly u n l a w f u l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : L ik e - l ik e e t h i c a lly ?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Because I just looked at him to

s a y i f t h e n y o u t e l l m e n o t to r e p o r t th e r e a n d y o u a r e t h e H e a d o f th e
D e p a r t m e n t y o u r i n s tr u c t io n m a y n o t s o u n d r i g h t - m a y - b u t m a y n o t b e
n e c e s s a r i ly u n l a w f u l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

S o w h e n h e s a i d if I g iv e y o u t h a t i n s tr u c ti o n

y o u m u s t r e f u s e . W h a t i n s tr u c t io n w a s h e t a lk in g a b o u t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

To e x c lu d e o r to s i d e - l in e th e

N a t io n a l H e a d o f I n v e s ti g a ti o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . W a s t h a t - d i d h e s a y t h a t i n - i n r e a c ti o n t o y o u
t e ll i n g h i m t h a t M s M b e k i h a d a s k e d y o u t o e x c lu d e M r S e s o k o fr o m t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. B e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d le t u s g o b a c k to t h e
fir s t r e p o r t .

N o w w h e n y o u s e n t i t t o t h e N PA w o u l d y o u h a v e s e n t it

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
t o g e th e r w it h t h e d o c k e t a s i t w e r e - w h a t e v e r fi le s t h a t y o u w o u l d c a ll
t h e d o c k e t w i th a l l t h e s t a t e m e n ts t h a t y o u h a v e c o ll e c t e d fr o m v a r i o u s
witnesses and other evidence?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

In

fa c t it - i t i s a p o lic y

r e q u ir e m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t y o u c a n n o t s e n d a d o c k e t a r e p o r t w i th o u t d o c k e t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t r e p o r t m u s t a c c o m p a n y th e
d o c k e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , h m a n d t h a t is w h a t y o u d id ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - o k a y a n d y o u m a y h a v e s a id s o m e th in g a b o u t

t h is e a r li e r o r e v e n y e s t e r d a y.

A r e p o r t s u c h a s t h e ty p e s o f r e p o r ts

t h a t I P I D p e r s o n n e l o r i n v e s ti g a to r s w o u l d s e n d t o t h e N PA w h ic h h a d
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a l w a y s w e n t w i t h t h e s t a t e m e n t s o r m a y b e s o m e t i m e s
t h e s t a t e m e n t s w o u l d a lr e a d y b e w i t h t h e N PA a n d t h e r e p o r t w o u l d j u s t
be - to be added to the docket.
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h a t is r e q u ir e d i s th a t y o u ta k e
b o t h to g e th e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

W h i c h m e a n s i t is t h e c o p ie s o f

the docket …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 152 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O r t h e a c t u a l d o c k e t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To g e th e r w i t h t h e - th e r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

It

is

in

the

-

in

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o S A P S .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t y o u w il l m a k e c o p ie s o f t h e
docket …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d th e n p u t a r e p o r t o n t o p …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And then send it to SAPS for

t h e m t o i n it i a t e d is c i p l i n a r y s te p s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w h o e v e r h a s t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n a t th e N PA
a b o u t w h e th e r t o p r o s e c u t e o r n o t t o p r o s e c u te o n w h a t w o u ld - w o u l d
t h e y n e e d t o b a s e t h e i r d e c is i o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Th e y n e e d t o b a s e t h e ir d e c is i o n
on a docket.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

In fa c t I h a v e s p o k e n w i t h a

n u m b e r o f p r o s e c u to r s s a y i n g t h a t w e d o n o t e v e n r e a d s o m e ti m e s t h e
report that you send.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o m e o f t h e m in d ic a t e d th a t I

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
m a y - i t m a y h e l p m e o n ly t o c h e c k o r th is s t a t e m e n t w h e r e is i t fi l e d i n
t h e d o c k e t. T h e n t h e y w il l b e a b l e t o n a v i g a t e th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is w h y C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I

a m s e a te d h e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : R e a lly m y h e a r t g o e s o u t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

T h a t s o m e t h in g w h ic h w a s n o t

s u p p o s e d to b e a n y t h i n g t o b e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a m e a b i g d e a l.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t i n te r f e r e d w i th m y c a r e e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t l a n d e d m e i n t h e c e l l.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S o i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t I h a v e

not yet got even a concrete answer about it.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W e l l t h a t i s - th a t is w h y I a s k t h e s e q u e s ti o n s
a n d I h a v e b e e n a s k i n g t h e m . I a s k e d t h e m w i t h Mr S e s o k o . I a s k e d
t h e m w i t h M r Mc B r i d e b e c a u s e I a m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t i t i s
r e a l ly th a t w a s a p r o b l e m b u t a ls o I a m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r
there is something that I do not understand in what you, Mr Sesoko and
M r Mc B r i d e h a v e b e e n t e l li n g m e t h a t m a y m a k e m e th in g th a t th e N PA

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
a n d W e r k s m a n s a n d m a y b e t h e M i n i s t e r w e r e a b u s i n g t h e ir p o w e r s
when maybe there was something.
M a y b e I j u s t d o n o t s e e i t . S o t h a t is w h y I k e e p o n a s k i n g
t h e s e q u e s ti o n s b e c a u s e I a m t r y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r r e a ll y w e
c o u l d b e d e a li n g h e r e w i th a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e c e r t a i n p e o p le w e r e ju s t
a b u s i n g th e ir p o w e r s .

Yo u p e o p le h a d a b s o l u t e ly n o th i n g w r o n g o r

w h e t h e r m a y b e th e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g . I j u s t d o n o t s e e i t . T h a t t h a t i s w h y I k e e p o n a s k i n g t h e s e q u e s ti o n s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o w th e - C h a ir p e r s o n th e - t h e
10

c h a l le n g e w it h th is c a s e i s t h a t b o th r e p o r t s w e r e in t h e h a n d s o f N PA .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
charges.

Now

I

s t ill

remember

the

T h e y s a i d I d e le t e d t h e J a n u a r y r e p o r t w h ic h is th e fir s t

r e p o r t . I d e le t e d i t . Th e r e is s o m e th i n g t h a t w a s d e l e te d i n t h e r e p o r t .
T h a t r e p o r t i f t h e y g iv e y o u a c o p y th e r e w a s n o t h i n g d e l e t e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e f a c t is t h a t i t w a s n o t s i m i la r
in e v e r y t h i n g w i th t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w e r e c e r ta i n th i n g s w h ic h y o u c o u l d f i n d i n t h e
20

fir s t r e p o r t …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : R e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y o u w o u l d n o t fi n d i n th e s e c o n d r e p o r t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t d i d n o t m e a n t h e y w e r e d e l e t e d fr o m t h e f ir s t

report?

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e w e r e t w o s e p a r a te r e p o r ts ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t n o w t h e r e p o r t c o n s ti t u te d - d i d t h e r e p o r ts th a t

y o u p r e p a r e d a s I P I D p e r s o n n e l o r i n v e s ti g a t o r s i n c l u d i n g th e o n e s t h a t
w e a r e d e a li n g w it h h e r e .

D i d t h e y c o n s ti t u te t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s

s u m m a r y o r th e in v e s ti g a t o r s u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t t h e e v i d e n c e i s
t h a t is to b e fo u n d i n t h e s t a t e m e n t s a n d t o t h e e x t e n t th a t t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r m a d e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t w a s j u s t h is o p i n io n a s h e
10

s e e s th e e v i d e n c e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . Th e r e p o r t i ts e l f
it is a f t e r s u m m a r i s i n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

O r t a k in g s y n o p s is fr o m e a c h

a n d e v e r y s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Yo u g o d o w n t h e r e a n d e x p r e s s

y o u r v ie w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

If probably because you may

fi n d t h a t s o m e i n v e s ti g a to r d i d n o t d o la w. T h e y j u s t h a v e e x t e n s iv e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , e x p e r ie n c e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : E x p e r i e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Yo u g e t s o m e ti m e s …

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d i n v e s t ig a t o r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n a ly s in g i n s u c h a w a y th a t th e
d e f e n c e w il l n o t e v e n a r g u e - w il l l a u g h a t y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t w e a l l o w t h a t b e c a u s e it w a s
a p o l ic y r e q u ir e m e n t to s a y w e d o th is r e p o r t ju s t ( i n d is ti n c t) t h e r e y o u
- i t - it w a s l ik e a g a m e fo r u s t o s a y h o w w e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W e a n a ly s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t h a d n o b e a r i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O n t h e d e c i s i o n o f S A P S .
CHAIRPERSON: Did it have …?

20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O n t h e - o n t h e d e c is i o n o f D P P.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w m a y b e ju s t to g e t i t . Yo u y o u r s e l f y o u - y o u a r e
n o t a la w y e r. Yo u d o n o t h a v e a l e g a l b a c k g r o u n d o r y o u d o h a v e s o m e
le g a l b a c k g r o u n d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I d i d l a w
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : C o u r s e s a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t I c a n n o t r e a l ly b e c o m p a r e d
with a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : P r a c t ic i n g l a w y e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , b u t f o r y o u r p o s i ti o n y o u d o n o t n e c e s s a r il y

r e q u ir e t o - to h a v e a L a w D e g r e e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o t h e y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a t t h a t t i m e w h a t - t h e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u h a d a t t h e
ti m e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e y r e q u i r e d e i th e r - i t - i t

depends.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t i s n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t is t h a t

you have …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t h a v e a D e g r e e .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Yo u n e e d t o h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f

t h e C r i m i n a l L a w. Yo u m a y h a v e a - a D e g r e e in I n v e s ti g a ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d H o n o u r s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t w h a t h a p p e n s is th a t y o u

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
a p p ly l a w o n - o n y o u r l e v e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n - j a , o n y o u r le v e l .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O n y o u r l e v e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

F o r e x a m p l e a t th e P r o v in c i a l

Level …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M o s t o f r e p o r ts t h e y c o m e t o m e
…
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d t h e n I w i ll ta k e t h e s e

reports …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d c h e c k t h e m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

An d - and during those days

because we used to analyse …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

I w i ll t e l l t h e i n v e s ti g a to r o h

here …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is s u p e r f ic ia l a n a ly s is ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a , t h is is o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll y o u d o m o r e w o r k .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W e w i ll t a lk a n d la u g h a b o u t i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 159 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

An d he said no I feel that we

n e e d t o p u t it t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Then because I am the Head of

t h e O ff ic e I w i ll e n d u p t e l li n g h i m w h a t to - t o p u t t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To p u t in , j a .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t th e r e q u i r e m e n t t h a t y o u s h o u l d p u t i n t h e r e p o r t s
w h e r e d i d t h a t r e q u ir e m e n t c o m e fr o m ?
10

Wa s i t a n N PA r e q u i r e m e n t ?

Wa s i t a n I P I D r e q u ir e m e n t ?

W a s i t a r e q u ir e m e n t b a s e d - th a t c a m e

fr o m a p o l ic y d o c u m e n t ? W a s it - d i d i t c o m e fr o m a r e g u la t io n ? D id i t
c o m e fr o m a n A c t o f P a r li a m e n t? W h e r e d i d t h a t c o m e f r o m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w a s i t j u s t a p r a c ti c e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

F o r t u n a t e ly C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s

in v o lv e d in t h e p r o c e s s o f th e fo r m a ti o n o f I P I D A c t i ts e lf …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A n d I d id a n u m b e r o f p u b l ic …
CHAIRPERSON: Engagements?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : E n g a g e m e n ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Engagements.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O n t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e - o n th e b il l .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : O n t h e b i ll i t s e l f.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 160 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Now

th e

is s u e

of

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s a lr e a d y a p r a c tic e t h a t w e
send …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A docket together with a report

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

And

th e n

you

make

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n . N o w i n t e r ms o f th e Ac t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e Ac t ta lk s a b o u t t w o t y p e s o f
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n . T h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o S A P S f o r d i s c i p li n a r y s t e p s .
T h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o N PA f o r t h e m t o t a k e th e d e c is i o n o n th a t
d o c k e t b u t o n S A P S i t is w h e r e th e r e i s s o m e le v e l o f o b li g a t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

O n th e s i d e o f S A P b e c a u s e i t

in d i c a t e s t h a t u p o n r e c e i p t o f I P I D …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

R e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h e y n e e d t o

in it i a t e d e p a r t m e n ta l p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e - t h e r e is s o m e k i n d o f e x p e c t a ti o n t h a t t h e y
m u s t g i v e e ff e c t o r i m p l e m e n t th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t b u t t h a t …

Page 161 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e S A P S ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S A P S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t t h a t o b li g a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Is n o t t h e r e i n t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e N - N PA ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H e n c e t h e r e is a n is s u e n o w t h a t
w h e n w e s e n d o u r r e c o m m e n d a t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

We

recommend

that

-

we

r e c o m m e n d th a t y o u t a k e d e c is io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t is s ti ll r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n o th e r w o r d s w h a t y o u a r e te ll i n g m e is a s f a r a s
t h e N PA i s c o n c e r n e d t h e y w e r e n o t o b l ig e d t o e v e n l o o k a t y o u r
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o r e v e n l o o k a t y o u r - a t - a t t h e r e p o r ts . Is t h a t r i g h t ?
20

T h e y c o u l d l o o k a t i t if th e y w a n t e d to . T h e y c o u ld d is r e g a r d i t a n d j u s t
lo o k a t t h e s t a te m e n t s i n t h e d o c k e t a n d m a k e t h e ir d e c is i o n a n d i f t h e y
d i d n o t lo o k a t i t y o u w o u l d h a v e n o c o s t t o c o m p l a in b e c a u s e i t - i t t h e y w e r e n o t b o u n d b y y o u r o p i n io n s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g
n o w i t is w h a t w a s s a id in t h e s t a t e m e n t …

Page 162 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

O f a p e r s o n w h o m I c o ll e c t e d

t h is r e n d i ti o n fr o m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

To s a y I a m n o t b o u n d b y t h i s

report.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye t w h e n I c o ll e c t e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w a s n o t y e t c h a r g e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : D e s p i t e t h is s t a t e m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I w a s c h a r g e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t n o w A d v o c a t e M o s in g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A d v o c a te Va n Zy l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Va n Z y l . H e - h e b e i n g fr o m t h e N PA a s w e l l?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t - b u t b a s i c a lly w e a r e g o i n g b a c k t o s a y i n g

20

t h e s e r e p o r t s r e a lly h a d n o l e g a l s t a t u s .

Yo u m i g h t o r m ig h t n o t b e

a b l e t o a n s w e r th a t b u t t h e y h a d n o l e g a l s t a tu s w i t h t h e N PA . Th e y t h e y c o u l d n o t m a k e i t a - a d e c is i o n a n d s a y i t is b e c a u s e th e I P I D
in v e s t i g a t o r s a i d s o .
T h e y - t h e y w o u ld h a v e t o b a s e th e ir d e c is io n s o n t h e
s t a te m e n ts in t h e d o c k e t .

Page 163 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

I

c a n s a y th a t t h e y d o n o t h a v e l e g a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : S t a t u s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : H o w e v e r w h a t w e u s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W e u s e o n l y s ta t is ti c a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : In f o r ma t io n to s a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

H o w m a n y r e c o m m e n d a ti o n -

because recommendation referred.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t m e a n s d o c k e t r e f e r r e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , y e s .

S o - s o n o w y o u s e e it r a is e s t h is

q u e s t io n a g a i n o f w h y w a s s u c h a b i g f ig h t - w h y d i d s u c h a b ig fi g h t
g e t i n i t ia t e d b e c a u s e y o u g a v e t h e m a n o p i n i o n o f w h a t y o u th o u g h t i n
t h e f ir s t r e p o r t a n d l a t e r g a v e - g a v e t h e m a n o p in io n t h a t w a s d i ffe r e n t
20

fr o m t h e fi r s t o p i n io n . W h y d id i t m a t t e r f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e ir d e c i s i o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k th is w a s a n

is s u e o f b e i n g h i t b y w h a t e v e r o b j e c t i s a v a i la b le f o r a p e r s o n w h o
w a n ts t o d e a l w i t h y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I f t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g e ls e I

Page 164 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
t h i n k th e y w o u l d h a v e u s e d th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

But

it

was

an

o b je c t

of

convenience.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t th e y u s e t h is r e p o r t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : To p u t u s i n th e c e l l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h e y u s e d th is r e p o r t to m a k e

s u r e th a t I a m d is m is s e d a n d s ta y e d f o r a l m o s t t w o y e a r s w it h a j o b .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . J u s t b e c a u s e y o u g a v e a n o p in i o n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

In o n e w a y - o n e w a y a n d t h e n y o u g a v e a n o t h e r

o p i n i o n i n a d i ff e r e n t a n d y o u h a d - y o u h a d y o u r r e a s o n s fo r th e
d i ff e r e n t o p i n i o n s a n d - a n d th e y w e r e n o t b o u n d b y y o u r o p i n i o n s .
T h e y - t h e y c o u l d h a v e s a i d h e - h e is m a d e a n d th e n j u s t m a k e th e i r
o w n d e c is i o n .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. D o y o u w a n t t o c o n t in u e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k le t u s - a t 5 o ’ c l o c k w e w il l - w e w i ll d e c i d e w e w ill d e c i d e . J u s t c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

I want to unpack what you have

b e e n s a y i n g b e c a u s e w e c a n s h o w it t h r o u g h t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n t h e

Page 165 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts a n d h o w y o u r v i e w s c h a n g e d fr o m y o u r f ir s t r e p o r t,
y o u r a m e n d e d r e p o r t a n d t h e n w h a t i s c a ll e d th e s e c o n d r e p o r t . N o w i t
is - i t is i m p o r ta n t a l s o t h a t t h e c r i tic is m - a n d y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f I a m
r ig h t - w a s b e tw e e n t h e d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e fi r s t r e p o r t a n d th e
s e c o n d r e p o r t.
T h e r e w a s n o c r i ti c is m o f t h e - o r c o m p a r is o n b e t w e e n y o u r
a m e n d e d f is t r e p o r t b e c a u s e y o u a m e n d e d th e fir s t r e p o r t b e c a u s e y o u
said

after

you

got

the

cellphone

records

you

changed

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t G e n e r a l Si b iy a b e c h a r g e d b e c a u s e i t p r o v e d t h a t
10

w h a t t h e w i t n e s s e s w e r e s a y i n g w a s n o t tr u e b u t t h e t w o r e p o r ts t h a t
y o u w e r e c h a r g e d a b o u t w a s t h e fir s t a n d t h e s e c o n d .
T h e a m e n d e d r e p o r t w a s n o t r e fe r r e d t o . A m I c o r r e c t in t h a t
regard?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Now …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m - I a m s o r r y.

W h e n y o u r e fe r t o th e a m e n d e d

r e p o r t a r e y o u r e fe r r i n g t o t h e r e p o r t t o w h ic h I u n d e r s t o o d y o u to r e fe r
e a r l ie r w h e r e y o u s a i d a f t e r y o u h a d s u b m i t te d w h a t w e c a ll th e fir s t
r e p o r t t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r r e p o r t t h a t y o u s u b m i tt e d .
20

I do not know if

y o u s a id i t w a s o n e p a g e b u t y o u s u b m i t t e d a n o t h e r r e p o r t b e f o r e w h a t
w e c a ll t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t . Is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th a t is c o r r e c t .

It w a s w h e r e I

made an amendment but that amendment was not made in a full report
b u t o n ly o n t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W a s i t o n e p a g e ?

Page 166 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s n o t - i t w a s … ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s a c o m p l e te r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s a c o m p l e te a n d t h a t i s t h e o n e w h e r e y o u s a y
y o u r e c o m m e n d e d th a t G e n e r a l S i b iy a s h o u l d n o t b e c h a r g e d …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

But you stayed

w it h

t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n

th a t

General Dramat be charged?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o in o th e r w o r d s y o u - y o u fil e d a n u m b e r o f r e p o r ts
e a r l ie r w h e r e y o u m a d e n o r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I m a d e o n e b e t w e e n t h e f ir s t a n d
w h a t i s c a ll e d t h e s e c o n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

No, no.

I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t b e f o r e t h e f ir s t

report.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m a d e - y o u m a d e a n u m b e r o f - o f - y o u

s u b m i tt e d a n u m b e r o f r e p o r ts ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i n t h o s e r e p o r ts t h e r e w a s n o r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

There

was

-

th e r e

was

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

R e l a ti n g t o t h e t w o - G e n e r a l S i b i y a a n d

General Dramat?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.

Page 167 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t w e r e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s i n r e g a r d to

that?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

It was the recommendation that

they - I was recommending that they should be charged.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. W a s t h a t in a n u m b e r o f r e p o r ts o r o n ly
o n e o f th e e a r l ie r r e p o r ts t h a t y o u t a lk e d a b o u t o r y o u c a n n o t
remember?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

D e p e n d i n g o n th e is s u e th a t

when we say number or reports …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t i s h o w m a n y t i m e s h a v e g iv e n
to …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A d v o c a t e M o s in g

or

Colonel Moukangwe …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

B u t h o w e v e r m o s t o f th e ti m e

w h e n I w o u l d g iv e h i m t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w i ll s o m e ti m e s r e m a i n lik e
that but I put statement in (intervenes).
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o th a t is f in e . S o - b u t t h e n w e c o m e t o
t h e r e p o r t th a t w e h a v e c a ll e d th e f ir s t r e p o r t . I n t h a t f ir s t r e p o r t y o u r
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n is b o th G e n e r a l S i b iy a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t s h o u ld b e
charged?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u s a y s o o n a ft e r y o u h a d s u b m it t e d t h a t

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fir s t r e p o r t t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r r e p o r t t h a t y o u s u b m i t te d a n d t h a t r e p o r t
c h a n g e d - w a s d i ff e r e n t in t e r m s o f r e c o m m e n d a t io n s t o t h e f ir s t o n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t w a s d i ff e r e n t in t h is r e s p e c t th a t i n r e g a r d t o
G e n e r a l S i b i y a y o u n o w s a id h e s h o u l d n o t b e c h a r g e d b u t w i t h r e g a r d
t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t y o u r e m a in e d w i t h t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t h e
should be charged?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d t h e n th e r e w a s w h a t w e c a l l t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t

b u t m a y b e w e s h o u l d b e c a l li n g i t t h e th ir d r e p o r t …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d o n o t w a n t t o c o n f u s e t h e r e c o r d . W h a t w e c a ll
t h e - t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t a n d in t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t y o u t h e n c h a n g e d y o u r
m i n d a b o u t G e n e r a l D r a m a t a s w e l l in t e r ms o f y o u r r e c o m m e n d a t io n
and

th e n

in

the

second

report

you

to o k

the

view

that

even

c o n fr o n t e d

with

General Dramat should not be charged?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

when

you

were

being

d is c r e p a n c ie s b e t w e e n t h e fir s t r e p o r t a n d th e s e c o n d r e p o r t - a n d I
20

t h i n k t h a t is t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t M s W e n t z e l w a s p u t ti n g - n o b o d y w a s
t a lk in g a b o u t th e - t h e a m e n d e d r e p o r t. T h e o n e t h a t w a s b e tw e e n th e
two reports?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Where already you had changed your mind about -

w i t h r e g a r d t o th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n r e l a ti n g t o G e n e r a l S i b i y a . Yo u h a d

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c h a n g e d y o u r m i n d a b o u t th a t o n e …
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

In the amended one but you had not changed your

m i n d in r e g a r d t o t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n r e l a ti n g t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

And when it came to the second report you had

c h a n g e d y o u r m i n d a b o u t b o t h o f th e m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

Th a n k y o u .

Let us - how much - how much

ti m e d o y o u e s ti m a t e w e w ill n e e d t o f in is h h is e v id e n c e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t h i n k p r o b a b l y a b o u t tw o h o u r s .
CHAIRPERSON: About two hours?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. S o i f w e w e r e t o g o f o r a n o t h e r h o u r w e
w o u ld t h e n a t l e a s t r e d u c e h is ti m e o n t h e s t a n d t o m o r r o w t o a t le a s t a n
h o u r if y o u r e s ti m a t e i s c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I f my e s ti m a te is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I n e e d t o h a v e a m e e t in g a b o u t a m o n g o t h e r

t h i n g s t h e p r o g r a m fo r n e x t w e e k a n d I n e e d - t h a t - th a t m e e t i n g
20

should be very short and I am tempted to say because both of you said
w e c o u l d g o u p t o s ix . I a m t e m p t e d t o s a y I s h o u l d a d j o u r n f o r a b o u t
1 5 o r s o m in u t e s .
D e a l w i t h t h a t is s u e a n d th e n c o m e b a c k a n d w e c o n ti n u e fo r
a b o u t a n h o u r u p t o 6 o ’ c lo c k o r j u s t a f t e r s ix a n d s o th a t i f w e - s o
t h a t w e t h e n - r e m a in w i t h m a y b e o n e h o u r w i t h h i m fo r t o m o r r o w.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h a t is c o n v e n i e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr K h u b a t h a t w o u ld s t il l b e fi n e w i th y o u ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t is o k a y c h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, a lr i g h t . W e a r e - w e a r e g o in g t o a d jo u r n
t h e n f o r a v e r y s h o r t t i m e u p to q u a r t e r p a s t f iv e a n d t h e n w e r e s u m e .
We adjourn.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t ’s c o n t in u e , w e h a v e a j o b t o d o y e s , th a n k

you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n b e f o r e w e l e a v e th e is s u e

o f t h e f ir s t r e p o r t y o u s a i d t h a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k y o u m i g h t b e to o fa r fr o m y o u r m ic .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u s a i d t h a t y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s n ’ t

c o m p le t e a t t h e s ta g e y o u s u b m i t t e d t h e f ir s t r e p o r t , c o u l d y o u te ll t h e
C h a ir w h a t w a s o u t s t a n d i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
20

There were a number of things

t h a t w e r e o u ts t a n d in g , i t w a s a w a r n i n g s t a te m e n t o f G e n e r a l S i b i y a
a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t. T h e a n a ly s i s o f t h e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d f o r G e n e r a l
S i b iy a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And did you tell Advocate Mosing that these

t h i n g s w e r e s ti ll o u t s ta n d i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s I d id .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s h is a t t i tu d e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

H e s a i d d e s p i t e th e o u ts ta n d i n g

in f o r m a ti o n I n e e d e d t o s u b m i t a d o c k e t w i t h t h e r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t i s s t il l i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e f ir s t r e p o r t ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

O k a y, a n d h e k n e w th a t y o u – o r r a t h e r le t m e a s k

t h is q u e s t i o n , a s a t t h a t ti m e w h e n y o u s u b m i tt e d y o u r f ir s t r e p o r t , d id
y o u i n te n d t o m a k e e ffo r t s t o g e t th o s e s t a t e m e n t s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

Th a t’s c o r r e c t I c o n ti n u e d w i th

t h e in v e s t i g a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d d id h e k n o w t h a t , A d v o c a t e M o s i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s h e d i d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d o b v i o u s l y i f h e k n e w t h a t y o u w e r e g o in g t o

c o n ti n u e w i t h th e in v e s t i g a t io n h e w o u l d k n o w t h a t w h a t e v e r y o u g o t
fr o m t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n w o u l d h a v e t o b e f a c t o r e d i n to – w o u l d h a v e t o
b e p u t in t o th e d o c k e t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e k n o w e x a c tly w h a t e l s e y o u w e r e g o i n g to b e
lo o k in g in t o a s p a r t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o t h e r t h a n tr y i n g t o o b ta i n th e
20

s t a te m e n t fr o m – d id y o u s a y G e n e r a l S i b i y a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , h e k n e w th a t t h e
c e l l p h o n e a n a ly s is , b e c a u s e h e w a s t h e o n e w h o g a v e m e i n s tr u c ti o n
t o g e t a n e x p e r t w h o w o u ld a n a ly s e t h e l o c a ti o n o f t h e t w o G e n e r a ls
w h e n th e y r e c e i v e d a n d m a d e c a ll s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a t th e s ta g e a t w h ic h y o u s u b m i t te d t h e f ir s t

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
r e p o r t , w e r e th e r e a n y c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s r e la t in g t o th e t w o G e n e r a l s
t h a t w e r e t h e r e in t h e d o c k e t a n d t h a t h a d b e e n a n a l y s e d a lr e a d y ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

They were no yet analysed

b e c a u s e t h e y u s e d s o m e th i n g th a t w e c a l l c o o r d in a te s , t h e s e a r e
n u m b e r s , y o u m a y f i n d t h e r e ’s f o u r o r fi v e n u m b e r s a n d t h e y w i ll
in d i c a t e t h e n a m e o f t h e to w e r b u t th e n a m e o f t h e t o w e r w i ll n o t
e x a c tl y t e ll y o u w h e r e b e c a u s e i t m a y b e n a m e d - p r o b a b ly a n a m e o f a
p e r s o n , y o u m a y n o t k n o w t h a t i t w a s n ’ t – b u t h e , w h e n w e d is c u s s e d ,
w e h a d a n a g r e e m e n t t o s a y le t ’s g e t t h e s e c o o r d i n a t e s t o b e p l o t t e d o n
10

a G o o g l e m a p s o t h a t w e c a n k n o w e x a c tl y w h e r e w a s th is p e r s o n
s t a n d in g w h e n h e r e c e i v e d o r m a d e a c a ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e w e r e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s in t h e d o c k e t a t

t h e t i m e y o u s u b m i t t e d t h e f ir s t r e p o r t b u t t h o s e c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s h a d
n o t y e t b e e n a n a ly s e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th a t c a n m a k e a b i g d i ffe r e n c e ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u , n o w y o u ’v e te s ti fi e d t h a t a f te r y o u
20

r e c e i v e d t h e s e c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s t h e y s h o w e d t h a t G e n e r a l S ib iy a w a s
– c o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a t t h e p la c e w h e r e t h e w i t n e s s e s h a d p l a c e d h i m
a n d s o i t d is p r o v e d w h a t t h e w i tn e s s e s h a d s a i d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

I’ m s o r r y is i t th e a n a l y s is o f t h e c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
t h a t r e v e a le d th a t , in o th e r w o r d s n o t j u s t t h e r e c o r d s b u t th e a n a l y s i s
o r th e r e c o r d s th e m s e lv e s a l s o d i s p r o v e d w i t h o u t th e a n a l y s is ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I f t h e r e c o r d c l e a r ly d i s a p p r o v e d
t h a t , th e r e w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a n e e d t o a n a ly s e th e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y s o fr o m t h e r e c o r d s w h ic h w e r e i n t h e

d o c k e t – fr o m th e c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s t h a t w e r e i n t h e d o c k e t, th o s e
r e c o r d s d i d n o t d is p r o v e w h a t t h e w i tn e s s e s h a d s a id ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d t h a t g a v e r is e t o t h e n e e d f o r th e r e c o r d s t o b e

a n a ly s e d s o a s t o e s t a b l is h e x a c t ly w h e r e t h e t w o p e r s o n s w e r e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d I m a y w is h t o a d d t h e r e

b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a ti m e w h e n w e w e n t th r o u g h t h e r e c o r d t o g e t h e r
a n d w e g o t s o m e f u n n y n a m e s in t e r m s o f t o w e r s a n d I s ti ll r e m e m b e r
A d v o c a t e w a s s a y i n g t h i s o n e s e e m s t o b e w h e r e – b u t i t w a s a ll a b o u t
g u e s s w o r k a n d t h a t ’s w h e r e h e s a i d , M r K h u b a g e t th e t h i n g a n a l y s e d
b y th e e x p e r t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o a p a r t fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t y o u , y o u r s e l f m a y h a v e

b e e n i n te n d i n g t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n a n a l y s is o f t h e c e ll p h o n e
r e c o r d s , h e h i m s e l f to l d y o u to p l e a s e g e t t h e r e c o r d s a n a ly s e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s h is id e a .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s h is i d e a ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o n o w, o n c e y o u r e c e iv e d t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n ,

y o u c h a n g e d y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t G e n e r a l S i b i y a s h o u ld b e
c h a r g e d a n d y o u p r o d u c e d , w h a t I ’v e r e f e r r e d t o … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I th in k y o u n e e d t o b e c a r e f u l a b o u t t h e t e r m i n o l o g y,

y o u k n o w w h e n y o u s a y, h e c h a n g e d h is r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , i t c o u l d m e a n
h e c h a n g e d h i s v i e w a b o u t t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n b u t i t a ls o c o u l d m e a n
h e p h y s ic a l ly c h a n g e d a r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t h a d b e e n m a d e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I a p p r e c ia t e th a t .

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir a n d t h a t is a n i m p o r t a n t d i s ti n c ti o n .

W h a t I m e a n t is t h a t y o u , i n e s s e n c e c h a n g e d y o u r m i n d o r c h a n g e d
y o u r v i e w, y o u d i d n ’ t ta k e t h e r e p o r t a n d a m e n d t h e f ir s t r e p o r t
p h y s i c a ll y, y o u p r o d u c e d a n e w r e p o r t t h a t h a d a d i ffe r e n t c o n c l u s io n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

So if you have a look at page 104 of the

b u n d l e y o u ’ ll s e e t h a t t h a t t h is is a n e m a il fr o m y o u d a t e d t h e 2 3 r d o f
January 2014 to Mr Sesoko and it says,
“ D i e p s lo o t [i n d is ti n c t ] c a s e r e p o r t ” .
S o d i d y o u s e n d t h i s r e p o r t to M r S e s o k o ?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h y d id y o u s e n d i t t o h i m ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e I w a n t e d h i m to d e li v e r
it t o t h e S e c r e ta r y o f P o li c e a s h e u s e d t o d o f o r m e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o if w e h a v e a lo o k a t … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .

W h i c h o n e is t h is r e p o r t , i s i t t h e fir s t r e p o r t , is i t

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t h e a m e n d e d r e p o r t , is i t t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I s t h is th e a m e n d e d r e p o r t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t is t h e a m e n d e d b e t w e e n

t h e fi r s t a n d t h e s e c o n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y le t ’s -

t h i n k l e t ’s c a ll i t t h e a m e n d e d r e p o r t

b e c a u s e i f w e c h a n g e a n d s a y i t ’s th e s e c o n d r e p o r t a s i t s h o u ld h a v e
b e e n s a i d , s h o u l d h a v e b e e n l a b e ll e d , it w i ll c a u s e c o n fu s i o n .

So we

h a v e t h e f ir s t r e p o r t , th e a m e n d e d r e p o r t a n d t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Ye s C h a ir a n d th e r e a s o n t h a t t h e

t e r m in o lo g y w a s u s e d is b e c a u s e i n t h e s u b s e q u e n t c h a r g e s a n d
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s i t w a s t h e d i s ti n c t io n b e t w e e n w h a t w a s c a l le d
a f ir s t r e p o r t a n d a s e c o n d r e p o r t , s o i t w a s i n th a t c o n t e x t t h a t , t h a t
t e r m in o lo g y w a s u s e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

So if we have a look at page 129 of the

b u n d l e i t s a y s , r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d t h e n a t p a g e 1 3 0 n o w r e a d s ,
“ B a s e d o n t h e a v a il a b l e e v id e n c e t h e I n d e p e n d e n t P o l ic e
I n v e s ti g a t iv e D ir e c t o r a te r e c o m m e n d s th a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t ,
L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l M a l a l e k a , C o n s t a b l e R a d e b e , C a p t a in S C
20

N k o s i a n d W a r r a n t O ff ic e r M a k o e b e c r i m in a l ly – c h a r g e d
c r i m i n a ll y o f , a g a i n k i d n a p p i n g , d e f e a ti n g t h e e n d s o f ju s t ic e ,
assault

and

th e f t

o n ly

a p p l ic a b l e

to

Captain

Malaleka,

Wa r r a n t O ffi c e M a k o e , C o n s t a b l e R a d e b e a n d C a p ta i n N k o s i ,
t h e n in b r a c k e t s i t s a y s ( t h e In d e p e n d e n t P o li c e I n v e s t ig a ti v e
D ir e c t o r a te c a n n o t r e c o m m e n d a n y c r i m i n a l

Page 176 of 191

charge against

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M a jo r G e n e r a l S i b i y a b e c a u s e th e w i t n e s s e s v e r s i o n s a r e n o t
corroborated by other evidence that he was at the crime
s c e n e e . g . c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s ) ” .
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

I h a d a l o o k a t s o m e s t a g e , e i th e r la s t n ig h t o r t h is

m o r n in g a t t h e W e r k s m a n s r e p o r t a n d I m a d e t h e m i s t a k e b u t I t h i n k
s o m e w h e r e i t m a y h a v e – i t m a y b e s a y i n g s o m e t h i n g t o th e e ff e c t t h a t
it is n o t t r u e t h a t t h e r e w e r e n o c e ll p h o n e – t h e r e w a s n o c e ll p h o n e
10

a n a ly s is a t th e t i m e o f m a k in g – s u b m i tt i n g t h e fir s t r e p o r t b e c a u s e i t
w a s t h e r e b u t i t m a y b e t h a t i t d o e s n ’ t s a y t h a t m a y b e i t s a y s y o u s a id
t o t h e m , t h a t i s W e r k s m a n s , y o u c h a n g e d y o u r v i e w b e c a u s e e a r l ie r o n
w h e n y o u s u b m i tt e d t h e f ir s t r e p o r t th e r e w e r e n o c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s .
T h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d t o c o n t in u e b e c a u s e y o u w a n te d t o o b t a in c e ll
p h o n e r e c o r d s . N o w y o u m a y h a v e a b e t t e r r e c o l le c t i o n t h a n I h a v e o f
w h a t t h e y s a y b u t b a s e d o n w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g , t o t h e e x t e n t th a t t h e y
m a y b e s a y i n g p a r t o f th e r e a s o n w h y th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s c o n ti n u i n g
w a s t h a t y o u w a n t e d to o b t a i n c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s , t h e n th e y m u s t h a v e
m is u n d e r s t o o d b e c a u s e y o u r e v i d e n c e is , th e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s w e r e

20

t h e r e , w h a t w a s n o t th e r e w a s th e a n a ly s is a n d t h e fu r t h e r i n v e s ti g a t i o n
w a s g o i n g t o i n c l u d e o b t a i n i n g a n a n a l y s i s o f c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s t h a t
w e r e a l r e a d y th e r e .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I t h i n k th e y m is u n d e r s t o o d m e

because cell phone records were there, the problem we had was to
u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e th e s e G e n e r a ls w e r e in t e r m s o f e x a c t l o c a ti o n a n d I

Page 177 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s t il l r e m e m b e r w h e n I s p o k e t o t h e e x p e r t I e v e n r e q u e s t e d t o s a y, j u s t
s h o w m e e v e n t h e p ic t u r e t o s a y t h is p e r s o n w a s s ta n d i n g h e r e a n d h e
d i d t h a t a n d in d ic a t e d t h a t i f t h e r e i s a n y v a r ia n c e f r o m w h a t h e
in d i c a t e d a n d w h e r e th e p e r s o n w a s s t a n d in g i t w o u l d b e o n ly t e n
m e tr e s . N o w i f t h e y s a y th a t th e r e w a s n o c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d w h y w o u l d
I t h e n – I d o n ’ t th i n k e v e n A d v o c a t e M o s i n g w o u ld h a v e a s s e r t e d t h a t
w i t h o u t c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s . T h e is s u e t h a t w e c o u l d n o t a n a ly s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

But your own understanding of what they say in this

c o n te x t i s i t m o r e o r l e s s a l o n g m y o w n u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s w e ll o r h o w
10

is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g b e c a u s e I th i n k s o m e w h e r e t h e y s e e m to s a y
t h e y d o n ’ t b e l i e v e y o u w i t h r e g a r d t o s o m e t h i n g r e la t in g to t h e r e c o r d s ,
I j u s t c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r t h e y s a y y o u s a id p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n w h y
t h e in v e s ti g a t io n s t il l h a d to c o n ti n u e w a s b e c a u s e y o u h a d t o o b t a i n
c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s a n d t h e n th e y s a y b u t t h e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s w e r e
a lr e a d y t h e r e o r w h e t h e r t h e y s a y, y o u s a i d y o u w e r e g o in g t o g e t
a n a ly s is a n d t h e y s a y, n o b u t t h e a n a ly s is w a s th e r e . I c a n ’t r e m e m b e r
t h o s e – th a t d is t in c t i o n .

D o y o u h a v e a n y p a r t ic u l a r r e c o l l e c ti o n o f

w h a t th e y s a y i n c r i t ic i s i n g y o u r e v id e n c e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : C h a ir p e r s o n I t h in k I n e e d t o p u t
20

t h e r e p o r t o f W e r k s m a n s in p e r s p e c ti v e b e c a u s e t h e y i n te r v i e w e d m e
t h r e e ti m e s a n d t h e fir s t d a y I s ti ll r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e w e h a d a lr e a d y
d is c u s s e d w i t h M r S e s o k o t o s a y, w h e n w e a r r iv e d th e r e w e n e e d t o a s k
w h e t h e r t h e s e th i n g s a r e g o i n g t o b e u s e d fo r d e p a r t m e n t a l o r f o r
c r i m i n a l . S o u n f o r tu n a te ly I d id n o t r e c o r d b u t I i n d ic a t e d t o t h e m a n d
t h e y g a v e m e t h e s a m e a s s u r a n c e th e y g a v e t o Mr S e s o k o . N o w w h e n I

Page 178 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
w a s t e l li n g t h e m e x a c tly w h a t h a p p e n e d w h a t t h e y u s e d t o d o , a n y
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w i ll s h o w t h a t I w a s to w in g t h e li n e i n t e r m s o f t h is
in v e s t i g a t io n , t h e y w o u l d n o t r e a l ly a ll o w t h a t . I s t il l r e m e m b e r I e v e n
s a i d , I h a v e a n e m a il t h a t s h o w s t h a t I r e q u e s te d t h is d o c k e t , t h is is n o t
n e c e s s a r y a n d th a t i s w h e n I r e a li s e d t h a t t h i s th i n g is o n e s id e d
b e c a u s e t h i s t h r e e i n t e r v i e w s w a s n o t b a s ic a l ly t h a t w e w e r e s t a r ti n g
v e r y l a te a n d t h a t t h e y c o u l d n o t f in is h . S o m e ti m e s th e y w o u l d s t a r t i n
t h e m o r n i n g a n d t h e y s a y w e a r e d o n e w it h y o u th e n I l e f t . P r o b a b ly
t h e y s a t d o w n a n d s a i d , n o w e c a n ’t r e a l ly h o o k th is g u y, h o w d o w e
10

c h a n g e th e q u e s t io n s a n d I w e n t b a c k a g a i n . W h e n I w e n t b a c k I fo u n d
t h a t t h e – t h e y w e r e a s k in g s i m il a r q u e s t io n s b u t t r y i n g to tr ic k m e
t h e r e a n d th e r e , t h e r e w a s o n e ti m e I w a s s o t ir e d a n d I w a n te d to
k n o w, w h a t is i t t h a t y o u r e a lly n e e d b e c a u s e I c o u l d s h o w – e v e n t h is
r e p o r t , th e y w e r e n o t in t e r e s t e d , t h e y w e r e n o t i n t e r e s t e d i n t h i n g s th a t
– t h e y w a n te d a s it u a ti o n , w h a t th e y w e r e p r e s s u r is i n g m e i s t h a t , d i d
M c Br i d e f o r c e y o u t o c h a n g e t h e r e p o r t .

T h e n I s a i d to t h e m , I d i d

s t a te m e n t a n a ly s is M c B r i d e w a s n o t y e t a p p o i n t e d , I t h e n d id t h e –
t h e r e w e r e c e l l p h o n e a n a ly s i s w h ic h w a s d o n e a n d I s e n t th e e m a i l
r e q u e s t in g t h e d o c k e t , M c B r i d e w a s n o t y e t e m p lo y e d b e c a u s e t h e y
20

w e r e p u s h i n g m e to a p o i n t t o s a y, y o u n e e d t o s a y y o u w e r e f o r c e d b y
M c Br i d e a n d i t w a s n o t tr u e .

If r e a lly I w a s fo r c e d , I w o u l d s a y t h e

s a m e w a y a n d s a y, I w a s fo r c e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y I a s k e d y o u a b o u t t h e W e r k s m a n s r e p o r t , w e ’ ll

g e t t h e r e l a t e r o r t o m o r r o w b u t I a s k e d b e c a u s e o f s o m e c o n n e c t io n
t h a t I w a s s e e i n g , p le a s e c o n t i n u e .

Page 179 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. S o , n o w a f t e r y o u h a d

s u b m i tt e d th e f ir s t r e p o r t , w h a t is n o w r e fe r r e d t o a s t h e a m e n d e d
r e p o r t y o u s a y i n y o u r s t a te m e n t i n p a r a g r a p h 7 2 o n p a g e 2 2 t h a t o n
t h e 2 6 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 G e n e r a l S i b iy a r e s p o n d e d t o t h e q u e s ti o n s
w h ic h y o u h a d s e n t t o h i m . W a s th is h is w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d i t w a s s e n t t o Mr S e s o k o o n t h e 2 7 t h o f

F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h e n w h a t d i d y o u d o w i th t h i s

in f o r m a ti o n ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I

fo r w a r d e d

it

to

A d v o c a te

Mosing.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d if w e h a v e a lo o k a t p a g e – i n f a c t i t ’s

p r o b a b ly b e s t to lo o k a t p a g e 1 3 4 o f t h e b u n d l e a n d … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

What page?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

1 3 4 C h a ir.

O k a y.

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u ’l l s e e a t t h e b o t to m h a l f o f t h e p a g e
20

is a n e m a il f r o m y o u d a t e d t h e 2 8 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 t o A n th o n y M o s i n g
a n d s u b j e c t fo r w a r d e m a i l r e s p o n s e to q u e s ti o n s p o s e d b y I P I D M a j o r
G e n e r a l S h a d r a c k Si b iy a . I s t h a t t h e e m a il i n w h ic h y o u f o r w a r d e d t h e
r e s p o n s e s t o A d v o c a te M o s i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d h e th e n r e s p o n d e d t o y o u o n t h e s a m e

Page 180 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
day and said,
“ D e a r M r K h u b a , in li g h t o f th e f a c t th a t t h e m a t t e r h a s b e e n
r e fe r r e d t o t h e D P P o f S o u t h G a u t e n g , G a u t e n g f o r d e c i s i o n
y o u a r e r e q u e s t e d to f il e th is e v id e n c e i n t h e d o c k e t w h ic h is
p r e s e n t ly

with

the

DPPSG

and

in

f u tu r e

forward

any

a d d it i o n a l e v i d e n c e o r o t h e r m a t te r s d i r e c tl y w i t h h i m , k i n d
Regards”,
S o w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d fr o m t h is ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t I c o u ld a c c e s s
10

o r g e t th e d o c k e t fr o m t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s h a v i n g t h e d o c k e t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d y o u w o u ld t h e n

u p d a te t h a t d o c k e t w i th t h is e v id e n c e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w c o u l d y o u e x p la in t o t h e C h a ir h o w i t

c a m e a b o u t t h a t w h a t i s n o w c a ll e d t h e s e c o n d r e p o r t th a t w a s s i g n e d
b y, I t h i n k M r S e s o k o a n d Mr M c B r i d e c a m e a b o u t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A f t e r I d i d a b r ie f in g w i th M r

M c Br i d e a s w e ll a s M r S e s o k o th e n I i n d ic a t e d t h e e m a il w h ic h w a s s e n t
b y A d v o c a te M o s in g a n d t h e n h e p e r m i t t e d m e t o g o a n d c o l l e c t th e
20

d o c k e t b e c a u s e I h a d t o a t t a c h t h e e v i d e n c e a n d th e n – t h a t ti m e I s t il l
r e m e m b e r i n d ic a t e d th a t t h i s t i m e y o u n e e d t o in v o lv e M r S e s o k o . S o I
m a n a g e d to g e t t h e d o c k e t a n d I’v e a lr e a d y in d i c a t e d w h a t w a s i n th e
d o c k e t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o l e t ’s ju s t s t o p t h e r e f o r a m in u te , w h o w e n t
with you to get the docket?

Page 181 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s G l e n In n e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h o d id y o u g e t t h e d o c k e t fr o m ?

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : A d v o c a te Va n Zy l.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h y d i d A d v o c a t e Va n Zy l n o w h a v e t h e
d o c k e t a s o p p o s e d t o A d v o c a te M o s i n g ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

S e e m in g ly i t w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o

A d v o c a t e Va n Zy l b u t a l l a l o n g I w a s u n d e r i m p r e s s i o n th a t A d v o c a te
M o s i n g w a s g o in g to p r o s e c u te t h e c a s e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

S o i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d to p a g e 1 3 6 , w h a t is

t h a t – s o r r y a r e y o u th e r e , n o ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : P a g e ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 136.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : 1 3 6 ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ja.

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

So rry I thought you said 126,

o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t i s t h i s d o c u m e n t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

1 3 6 – o h th is d o c u m e n t it ’s a

le t t e r, i t w a s s e n t t o A d v o c a t e C h a u k e b y A d v o c a t e M o s in g .
20

le t t e r w a s p a r t o f th e d o c k e t .

S o t h is

W h e n I w e n t t o c o l l e c t th e d o c k e t

A d v o c a t e Va n Zy l t o o k t h e c o p y o f t h is l e t t e r a n d h e s c r i b b le d it s o t h a t
I c o u ld s i g n a c k n o w l e d g in g th e d o c k e t . S o t h e d o c k e t w a s in t e r m s o f
t h e A c t 5 a s I in d ic a t e d e a r li e r.

S o h e i n d ic a te d th a t th e r e w e r e s ix

a r c h l e v e r fil e s , o n e th i n f il e , i t w a s h a n d e d t o Mr K h u b a fr o m I P I D a n d
it i n d ic a t e d th a t I w a s a c c o m p a n i e d b y G l e n In n e s , h e e v e n w r o te th e

Page 182 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
cell phone number there and I signed for it.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w w h e n y o u h a d th e d o c k e t a n d p e r u s e d

t h e c o n t e n ts y o u in d i c a t e d e a r li e r t h a t y o u r f ir s t r e p o r t w a s n ’t in t h e
d o c k e t, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And what report was in the docket?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s A d v o c a te M o s i n g ’s r e p o r t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w a s t h e r e a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n fr o m

Advocate Mosing?
10

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And

do

you

remember

what

that

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s t o th e
e ffe c t t h a t h e w a s r e c o m m e n d i n g t h a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t b e c h a r g e d b u t
h e c o u l d n o t r e c o m m e n d t h a t G e n e r a l S i b iy a b e c h a r g e d , h e o n l y
recommended General Dramat.
CHAIRPERSON:

So at that stage when you took the docket as

r e fl e c t e d i n t h e d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 1 3 6 , th i s w a s a f t e r y o u h a d s u b ti t le d
t h e fi r s t r e p o r t ?
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t .

Wa s it a ls o a f t e r y o u h a d s u b m i tt e d t h e a m e n d e d

r e p o r t o r w a s I b e f o r e y o u s u b m i t te d th e a m e n d e d r e p o r t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h e a m e n d e d r e p o r t w a s a lr e a d y
s u b m i tt e d b u t n o t to N PA i t w a s s u b m i tt e d t o M r S e s o k o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

Page 183 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B u t w h a t I – I m a y n o t r e m e m b e r
w h a t r e a lly h a p p e n e d b u t k n o w i n g th a t I w a s u p d a t in g A d v o c a t e M o s in g
in e v e r y t h i n g I t h i n k I t o l d h i m t h a t I s p o k e w i th th e e x p e r t a n d h e s a y s ,
t h is p e r s o n w a s n o t t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o h is d e c i s i o n to r e c o m m e n d – o r h is

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t G e n e r a l S i b i y a s h o u l d n o t b e c h a r g e d , t h e f a c t
t h a t , th a t is i n l i n e w i t h y o u r a m e n d e d r e p o r t m i g h t b e b e c a u s e y o u to l d
h i m e v e n b e f o r e h e g o t th e a m e n d e d r e p o r t ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :
10

Ye s b e c a u s e w h e n I g a v e h i m

t h e – w h e n I g o t t h e i n fo r m a ti o n , I g o t i t t e l e p h o n ic a lly fr o m t h e e x p e r t,
w h a t I a m s u s p e c ti n g is t h a t I t h i n k I h a d s p o k e n w i t h h i m b u t I c a n n o t
r e a l ly p r e c is e ly r e m e m b e r, I ’ m d r a w in g t h a t c o n c l u s io n o n t h e b a s i s t h a t
I w o u l d t e ll h i m o f e v e r y t h i n g th a t w a s t a k i n g w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d
w i t h th is ty p e o f d i s c o v e r y f o r m e it w a s s e r io u s t h a t w a r r a n te d m e t o
phone him.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o i t w o u ld b e u n l ik e ly t h a t y o u d e la y e d t e l li n g

h i m o n c e y o u k n e w i t , o k a y. S o t h e 1 4 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 a s r e f le c t e d
in t h e d o c u m e n t a t p a g e 1 3 6 b y th a t ti m e h a d G e n e r a l D r a m a t’s
s t a te m e n t a n d G e n e r a l S i b iy a ’s s t a t e m e n t b e e n s e n t t o A d v o c a t e
20

Mosing?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

I h a d a lr e a d y r e c e iv e d th o s e

d o c u m e n ts i f I r e m e m b e r w e l l j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h a d y o u s e n t t h e m t o A d v o c a t e M o s i n g o r n o t, o r
are you not able to remember?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h a t I r e m e m b e r is w h e n I s e n t

Page 184 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
t h e s t a t e m e n t o f G e n e r a l S ib iy a b u t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r i n t e r m s o f
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: The dates?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : N o I s e n t i t o n th e 2 7 t h i n t e r m s
o f . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: 27 February?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : F e b r u a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : W h e n I w e n t t h e r e I h a d a lr e a d y
10

s e n t, w h e n I w e n t t o c o ll e c t th e d o c k e t I h a d a l r e a d y s e n t h i m th e c o p y
o f t h e w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is l e t te r, I’ m s o r r y I t h i n k I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d
s o m e t h i n g , th e m e m o r a n d u m a t p a g e 1 3 6 is d a te d 1 4 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 ,
b u t t h a t i s n o t th e d a t e w h e n y o u s a w i t . Yo u s a w i t m u c h la t e r.
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Ye s ,

I

saw

it

on

the

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e i s 1 8 J u n e th e r e a n d 2 7 J u n e , 1 8 / 6 , 2 7 / 6 a n d

t h e n t h e r e is 7 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 a t t h e b o t t o m j u s t u n d e r t h e c e n tr a l n u m b e r
o f M r G le n A n g u s , t h a t i s 1 3 J u n e s o m e w h e r e o n th e s id e .
20

M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c a n b e a b l e t o t a lk a b o u t t h e s e
dates, some of them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : F o r e x a m p l e t h e 7 t h M a r c h 2 0 1 4
w a s w h e n I c o l l e c te d t h e d o c k e t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 185 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is w h y th e r e a r e s i g n a t u r e s
there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

A n d a ls o n e x t t o m y s ig n a tu r e

t h e r e i s t h e s a m e d a t e , w h i c h is 2 0 1 4 / 0 3 /0 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : B e c a u s e t h a t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is m y s ig n a tu r e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

N e x t t o , ju s t b e l o w 7 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 , t h a t is u n d e r t h e

c e l l n u m b e r o f M s J a n g u s , t h e s i g n a t u r e a t t h e e x tr e m e r ig h t b o t to m o f
the page?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : M m m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o s e s i g n a t u r e is th a t o n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A :

Th a t is G l e n A n g u s w h o w a s

accompanying me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e r e i s y o u r s i g n a t u r e , I a m tr y i n g to s e e y o u r
one?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t i s th e o n e t h a t K h u b a w i t h f in e
20

p r i n t , s m a ll o n e . Th e o n e j u s t u n d e r 7 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y o u k n o w i t l o o k s l ik e s o m e b o d y h a d w r i t t e n

something and crossed it out.

(Laughing)

O k a y s o o n – s o i t w a s th e

7 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 4 , t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t y o u s a w t h i s d o c u m e n t?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W a s it o n th a t d a y t h a t y o u a l s o s a w o r f o u n d

Page 186 of 191

26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
out that Advocate Mosing had made the recommendation that General
Dramat should be charged?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t i n t e r m s o f s e n d i n g th e G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d
G e n e r a l S i b iy a ’s s ta t e m e n ts t o A d v o c a t e M o s i n g y o u s a i d y o u t h in k y o u
s e n t t h e m o n t h e 2 7 t h , b u t y o u d i d n o t s a y w h ic h m o n th .
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I t w a s F e b r u a r y.
CHAIRPERSON: 27 February?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : 2 0 1 4 .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d th e – d o y o u r e m e m b e r i n c a s e i t is n o t

h e r e b u t if i t is h e r e M s W e n tz e l w il l t e l l m e t h e d o c u m e n t w h i c h
c o n ta in e d M s D e m o r s i n g h ’s r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t b e
c h a r g e d d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t d a te i t w a s d a t e d ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r, o k a y a lr ig h t . I s i t h e r e ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o , i t is n o t h e r e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e a n i m p o r ta n t a s p e c t is w h e th e r th e d e c is i o n
t h a t h e s h o u l d b e c h a r g e d w a s t a k e n a f te r h i s s ta t e m e n t h a s b e e n
received and studied or not.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a i r w e w il l tr y a n d s e e i f w e c a n l o c a t e

t h a t , b u t C h a ir i f w e d o h a v e r e g a r d to p a g e 1 3 4 a g a in w e c a n s e e t h a t
t h e r e s p o n s e t o th e q u e s ti o n s p o s e d b y G e n e r a l S i b iy a w e r e f o r w a r d e d
by Mr Khuba to Advocate Mosing on the 28th of February 2014.

He

s a i d n o w i t i s t h e 2 7 t h b u t i t w a s i n f a c t t h e 2 8 t h a n d th e n i f y o u h a v e
regard to the document at page 136.

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry at 134 what were you drawing to my

a tt e n ti o n ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

So if you look at the second half of the

d o c u m e n t y o u w ill s e e t h e fi r s t e m a i l d a t e d th e 2 8 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 ,
a n d y o u s e e t h e s u b j e c t s a y s f o r w a r d e m a i li n g r e s p o n s e t o q u e s t io n s
p o s e d b y I P I D M a j o r G e n e r a l S h a d r a c k M i tz ib iy a s o t h a t is w h e n
A d v o c a t e M o s i n g g e ts t h is a n d t h e n te ll s h i m y o u n e e d to fi l e t h i s
evidence in a docket, and I do not have the docket any more so you
need to go to the DPP of South Gauteng for the 7th.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e n i f w e h a v e a l o o k a t H I K 1 3 6 y o u w il l

r e m e m b e r th a t t h e t e s ti m o n y w a s fr o m M r K h u b a th a t A d v o c a t e v a n Zy l
h a d t h e d o c k e t a n d h e m a d e t h e m s i g n f o r a ll th e f il e s , s o y o u w il l s e e
t h e r e i t s a y s 1 6 la r g e fi le s a n d o n e t h i n f i le a n d h a n d i t t o K h u b a fr o m
I P I D , is p h o n e n u m b e r, a c c o m p a n ie d b y G l e n A n g u s , h is c e ll p h o n e
n u m b e r, t h e d a te a n d h e m a d e th e m b o t h s ig n , s o t h a t is c e r t a i n ly t h e
d a t e t h a t th a t d o c k e t w a s c o ll e c t e d w h ic h is a f t e r t h e e m a i l w a s s e n t ,
b u t w h a t i s i m p o r t a n t i s t h a t i f y o u lo o k a t t h e d a t e o n p a g e 1 3 6 w h e n
t h e d o c k e t w a s fo r w a r d e d th a t w a s t h e 1 4 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 , s o a t t h a t
20

s t a g e h e w o u l d n o t h a v e h a d th e w a r n in g s t a t e m e n t f r o m S i b iy a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y o u s a y h e f o r w a r d e d t h e d o c k e t to t h e D P P o n

t h e 1 4 t h o f Fe b r u a r y a n d o n e w o u ld e x p e c t th a t th a t i s w h e n – o n e
w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t c o n t a i n in g h is r e c o m m e n d a t io n w o u l d
h a v e b e e n c o n t a in e d i n t h e d o c k e t a s w e ll .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w a s w a y b e fo r e t h e s t a t e m e n t fr o m G e n e r a l
S i b iy a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t , o r G e n e r a l S ib iy a ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir a n d s o t h a t – i f t h a t is c o r r e c t th e n

it m e a n s th a t h is . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

H e m a d e th e d e c is i o n b e f o r e h e c o u l d s e e t h e

s t a te m e n ts o f G e n e r a l S i b iy a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o i t m u s t m e a n th a t h e c o u ld n o t h a v e m a d e

it o n th e b a s i s o f w h a t G e n e r a l S ib iy a s a i d b u t it p r o b a b ly w a s a s a
r e s u l t o f t h e c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , o k a y.

A r e y o u s a y i n g i t w a s o n t h e b a s is o f

t h e c e l l p h o n e r e c o r d s a s o p p o s e d t o t h e a n a ly s is o f c e ll p h o n e
records?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s I m e a n t h e a n a l y s i s o f t h e c e l l p h o n e

r e c o r d s I a m s o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y, a n d th is is a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e h e k n e w

b a s e d o n w h a t M r K h u b a h a s t e s t if i e d h e k n e w t h a t M r K h u b a w a s s t il l
tr y i n g t o g e t s t a t e m e n ts fr o m G e n e r a l S ib iy a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t , s o h e
m a k e s a d e c is io n th a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t m u s t b e p r o s e c u t e d b e fo r e
h e a r in g w h a t h e h a s t o s a y in h i s s ta t e m e n t .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

It w o u l d a p p e a r t h a t b e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t l o o k

lik e G e n e r a l D r a m a t ’s fi n a l w a r n in g s t a te m e n t w a s fo r w a r d e d t o h i m .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Okay
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir i s i t a c o n v e n ie n t ti m e t o a d j o u r n o r

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I d id n o t r e a l is e w e a r e a l r e a d y a t t w o m i n u t e s to

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
s ix , n o I t h i n k w e n e e d t o a d jo u r n n o w, I th in k I a m p r o b a b ly n o t th e
o n ly o n e w h o is g e t ti n g tir e d .

I d o n ’t k n o w i f w e m a d e a s m u c h

p r o g r e s s a s w e h o p e d t o m a k e a f t e r t h e f i n a l b r e a k , I g u e s s it d o e s n o t
m a t t e r m u c h i f I s a y l e t u s g o a n o t h e r te n m i n u t e s t o m a k e i t a n h o u r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I a m in C h a ir ’s h a n d s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I th i n k th a t i s f in e , l e t ’s a d j o u r n , i t d o e s l o o k li k e –
s o m a y b e t o m o r r o w w e s h o u l d s t a r t a t h a lf p a s t n in e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s C h a ir.

Th e n m a y b e w e c o u l d g o u p t o h a l f p a s t t e n .

I see

t h a t w i t h r e g a r d t o C o l o n e l N a i d o o in t h e p r o g r a m f o r n e x t w e e k t h e r e is
m u c h s p a c e fo r h i m , t h e r e is s p a c e I t h in k fo r a b o u t t h r e e d a y s , e x c e p t
t h a t o n Tu e s d a y R e v e r e n d C h i k a n e i s a ls o p u t i n t h e r e b u t I d o n ’t w a n t
C o l o n e l N a i d o o ’s e v i d e n c e t o b e in t e r r u p t e d b y a n o t h e r w it n e s s ’s
e v i d e n c e , w e w o u ld n e e d t o fi n is h w i th h i m , s o i t m a y b e t h a t t h e r e is –
n o t m u c h n e e d to s t a r t to o e a r ly t h e n h a l f p a s t n in e to m o r r o w.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir s o r r y, I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e I a m

u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u , a r e y o u p r o p o s in g t h a t C o l o n e l N a id o o w o u ld s ta r t
t o m o r r o w a n d c o n t i n u e o n M o n d a y o r h e w o u ld o n ly c o n t in u e o n
W e d n e s d a y, h e w o u l d o n l y s ta r t o n W e d n e s d a y ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o w h a t I a m s a y in g i s r e m e m b e r t h a t e a r l i e r o n
y o u s a i d t h a t y o u th o u g h t th a t o n M o n d a y y o u w o u l d b e – h i s d a y w h e n
h e c o u l d c o n ti n u e if w e d o n o t fi n i s h t o m o r r o w, w h ic h y o u d i d n o t t h i n k
w o u ld h a p p e n , b u t I s a i d I w a s s t il l g o i n g t o lo o k a t t h e p r o g r a m , s o I
a m s i m p l y s a y i n g o n c e w e a r e fi n is h e d w i t h M r K h u b a to m o r r o w w e c a n
s t a r t w i th C o l o n e l N a i d o o a n d t h e n w e w i ll c o n t in u e o n M o n d a y, w e c a n

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26 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 171
c o n ti n u e o n M o n d a y w it h h i m a n d if w e d o d o n o t fi n i s h o n M o n d a y w i th
h i m w e c a n c o n ti n u e o n Tu e s d a y a ls o a n d l e t R e v e r e n d C h ik a n e o n l y
s t a r t is e v i d e n c e a f t e r w e h a v e f in is h e d w i t h h i m , w i t h C o l o n e l N a id o o .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t i s w h a t I a m s a y i n g . I h a v e a s k e d t h a t R e v e r e n t
C h ik a n e b e a l e r t e d to t h e f a c t t h a t i f b y M o n d a y a f te r n o o n w e h a v e n o t
fi n i s h e d w i t h C o l o n e l N a id o o th e n o n Tu e s d a y m o r n in g w e w o u l d
c o n ti n u e w i th h i m a n d o n ly s ta r t h is e v id e n c e a ft e r w e h a v e fi n i s h e d
w i t h C o lo n e l N a i d o o .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s t h a t w o u ld – th a t s e e m s a s o l u ti o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. M r K h u b a t o m o r r o w y o u w o u l d b e f i n e w i t h
s t a r ti n g a t h a l f p a s t n i n e ?
M R H U M B U LA N I I N N O C E N T K H U B A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, s o w e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n a t t h is s t a g e a n d
t h e n to m o r r o w w e w il l c o n ti n u e a t h a l f p a s t n i n e . W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

Al l r i s e .

I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 7 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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