C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 26 JUNE 2019 D AY 1 2 1 20 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 PROCEEDINGS ON 26 JUNE 2019 CHAIRPERSON : Good morning Ms S e p t e m b e r, good m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Are you ready ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Ye s w e a r e C h a ir. B e f o r e w e b e g i n C h a ir th e r e a r e l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o f c e r ta i n p e r s o n s i n th e p r o c e e d i n g s t o d a y i n r e g a r d n o t o n ly t o th i s w it n e s s b u t a ls o i m p l ic a te d p a r t i e s . W i t h y o u r le a v e m a y t h e y p l a c e t h e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d p l e a s e ? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. CHAIRPERSON : I think Mr Katz. A D V A N TO N K AT Z : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir p e r s o n m y n a m e is A n t o n K a tz fr o m t h e C a p e To w n b a r. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V A N TO N K AT Z : I a m in s tr u c te d b y Ms B X u l u a n d P a r t n e r s o n b e h a l f o f M r Vu y is il e K o n a w h o is p o t e n t ia lly a n i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n i n r e s p e c t o f th e w i t n e s s th a t is g o i n g t o b e c a ll e d t o d a y. Thank you C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Thank you very much. A D V L U D W I G B A R E N D S : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Good morning. ADV LUDWIG BARENDS: My n a m e i s L u d w ig B a r e n d s I a m a s s is t e d w i t h – b y M r C a s p e r B a d e n h o r s t w e a r e fr o m U lr ic h R o u x a n d A s s o c ia t e s . Page 2 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV LUDWIG BARENDS: W e a r e h e r e o n t h e b e h a l f o f t h e w i tn e s s S iz a k e l e M z i m e l a t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. ADV LUDWIG BARENDS: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M s S e p t e m b e r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a i r to d a y w e p r e s e n t t h e e v i d e n c e o f a n e x - e m p l o y e e o f S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s w h o is c u r r e n tly a n e m p lo y e e o f S o u th A f r i c a n E x p r e s s . 10 Her evidence is p r i m a r i ly f o c u s s e d o n g o v e r n a n c e a t S A A a n d s h e w ill t a k e u s th r o u g h c e r t a i n e v e n ts t h a t s h e e x p e r i e n c e d d u r in g h e r t e n u r e a t S A A i n r e l a ti o n to a s p e c ts o f g o v e r n a n c e . In doing so the evidence that she p r e s e n ts is b y a n d l a r g e c o n f in e d t o h e r t e r m o f o ffic e w h ic h w a s 1 A p r i l 2 0 1 0 u n ti l O c t o b e r o f 2 0 1 2 . relates to evidence th a t P a r ts o f h e r e v i d e n c e C h a i r c e r t a i n ly has a lr e a d y been placed b e fo r e t h is c o m m i s s io n th r o u g h t h e w i t n e s s e s o f a m o n g s t o t h e r s o r r a t h e r i n p a r t ic u l a r Ms Vy tj ie M e n to r, M s C h e r y l C a r o l u s a n d t o a c e r t a i n e x t e n t Ms Barbara Hogan. In t h a t c o n t e x t t h e e v id e n c e th a t t h is e v i d e n c e – t h a t t h is w i t n e s s p r e s e n t s t o d a y a u g m e n t s e v id e n c e th a t h a s a lr e a d y 20 b e e n p l a c e d b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s io n . A l t e r n a ti v e ly j u s t c o r r o b o r a t e s v e r s i o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n p la c e d b e f o r e t h is c o m m i s s i o n . I n s o d o in g th e b u n d l e b e f o r e y o u C h a ir is m a r k e d w it h y o u r l e a v e D D 1 4 a n d w i th y o u r p e r m is s io n I w o u l d ju s t li k e t o t a k e y o u t h r o u g h w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d i n t h e bundle? CHAIRPERSON : T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a i n in g th e s t a te m e n t o r Page 3 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 a ffi d a v i t o f M s S i z a k e le P e t u n ia M z i m e l a w i ll b e m a r k e d E x h i b it D D 1 4 . Ye s y o u m a y g o a h e a d . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : t h e b u n d le c o n t a i n s t w o p a r ts . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir b e f o r e y o u T h e fir s t p a r t is fr o m p a g e s 1 t o 2 1 5 t h a t is 2 1 5 a n d t h a t i s th e s w o r n s t a te m e n t o f th is w i t n e s s i n a d d i t io n t o t h e a n n e x u r e s th a t w i ll b e r e fe r r e d t o t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON : A s th e s w o r n s t a t e m e n t a n d a n n e x u r e s ? I t is t h e – h e r s w o r n s t a te m e n t a n d th e a n n e x u r e s to h e r s ta t e m e n t? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. Th e n … CHAIRPERSON : Yo u s a i d i n a d d i ti o n to s o I w a s w o n d e r i n g w h e th e r h e r s ta t e m e n t is 2 0 0 a n s o m e t h i n g p a g e s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : No, no. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y r i g h t. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : T h a t is t h e fu ll b u n d l e o f h e r e v i d e n c e . A n d th e n th e s e c o n d p a r t o f t h e b u n d l e i n c l u d e s a n a ff i d a v i t b y a n A d v o c a t e S a n d r a C o e tz e e t h a t c a n b e f o u n d fr o m p a g e s 2 1 6 t o 229. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : C h a ir A d v o c a t e C o e t z e e w il l n o t b e g iv i n g e v id e n c e t o d a y a t t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s . CHAIRPERSON : Who? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O r r a t h e r w i ll n o t b e … C H A I R P E R S O N : A d v o c a t e C o e tz e e . Page 4 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A d v o c a t e C o e tz e e . CHAIRPERSON : Okay yes. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : W i ll n o t b e g i v i n g o r a l t e s t i m o n y a t a l l a n d t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t a p p e a r s i n th e b u n d le w a s a c t u a ll y o n l y r e c e i v e d y e s t e r d a y. N o tw i th s ta n d i n g t h a t t h e a ffi d a v i t in a s t a te m e n t form and not deposed to before a commissioner of oaths does in fact f o r m p a r t o f th is w i t n e s s ’ b u n d le a s A n n e x u r e 6 . In o t h e r w o r d s a t Ta b 6 C h a i r y o u w il l fi n d t h e s t a te m e n t o f A d v o c a t e S a n d r a C o e tz e e , S a n d r a J u l i e H e s t e r C o e tz e e . 10 CHAIRPERSON : Is it signed? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : I t is s i g n e d o n t h e l a s t p a g e a s a s t a te m e n t w h ic h a p p e a r s … C H A I R P E R S O N : I t a p p e a r s to b e a n a ff id a v i t? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I t a p p e a r s to b e a n a ff id a v i t, is i t a n a ffi d a v it ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o C h a i r i t is ju s t a m e r e s t a te m e n t . The signature on page 107… C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – b u t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g s h e s a y s s h e s ta t e s u n d e r o a t h a n d a t t h e e n d I th i n k I s e e a c o m m i s s io n e r ’s – a c o m m i s s io n e r o f 20 oaths signature – yes I do. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Oh. CHAIRPERSON : On the 25 June 2019.06.2 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Ye s t h a t is t h e – th a t is t h e a ffi d a v i t a t t h e e n d o f th e b u n d l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 5 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : That… C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y – w h y is it n o t a n a ff id a v it t h e n ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o C h a i r y o u a r e i n fa c t c o r r e c t th a t is i n f a c t t h e a ffi d a v it . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : But the exact same document a p p e a r s i n th e fo r m o f a s t a te m e n t . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : At page 101. 10 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: t o t h i s w i tn e s s ’s e v i d e n c e . O f t h e b u n d l e w h i c h is a n a n n e x u r e In o th e r w o r d s w h e n i t w a s c l a r i f ie d t h a t A d v o c a t e S a n d r a C o e tz e e w i ll n o t b e c o m in g to g i v e o r a l e v i d e n c e h e r s t a te m e n t w a s c o n v e r t e d i n t o a n a ff i d a v i t a n d t h a t w a s m e r e l y t h e n t o tr a n s p o s e i t in t o – s o r r y ? CHAIRPERSON : W h o c l a r i fi e d t h a t s h e w o u ld n o t b e – w h o c l a r i fi e d t h a t s h e w o u l d n o t b e c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t w a s t h e d e c is i o n o f t h e l e g a l t e a m in c o n s u l t a ti o n w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t t o b e C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t y o u c a n n o t p u t i n a n a ff id a v i t o n t h e b a s i s th a t t h e le g a l te a m d e c id e s t h a t s o m e b o d y w il l n o t b e c a l le d . I decide in t h e e n d w h e t h e r s o m e b o d y w i ll b e c a ll e d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h e y c a n t a k e a v ie w w h e t h e r th e y th i n k i t is n e c e s s a r y b u t t h e y m u s t p u t th a t to m e a n d I d e c i d e t h a t . Page 6 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir a n d s o b y y o u r d ir e c t io n w e a r e g u i d e d b y y o u a s to w h e t h e r o r n o t y o u w i s h M s A d v o c a t e C o e t z e e t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d w h y – w h y d i d th e le g a l t e a m t h i n k s h e s h o u l d n o t b e c a ll e d ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : T h e e v id e n c e t h a t s h e p r e s e n ts i n h e r a ffi d a v i t is m e r e l y c o r r o b o r a t iv e – i t m e r e ly c o r r o b o r a te s th e version of… C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is n o t a g r o u n d f o r n o t c a ll in g – y o u k n o w n o t 10 c a l li n g a w i t n e s s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e – w h a t I h a v e i n d ic a t e d b e f o r e is t h a t i f – i f a w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o b e i n d i s p u t e o r is u n l ik e l y t o b e c h a l le n g e d p r o v i s i o n a lly o n e c a n w o r k o n t h e b a s i s t h a t a n a ffi d a v it w o u ld b e s u ff ic ie n t b u t s t e p s s h o u ld b e t a k e n t o s e e w h e t h e r th e r e i s s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t w i s h t o c h a l le n g e i t a n d if i t a p p e a r s th a t t h e r e is s o m e b o d y w h o w il l c h a ll e n g e i t th a t w i t n e s s m a y h a v e to b e c a ll e d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : 20 O k a y s o I th in k t h a t t h e r e f o r e a n y i m p r e s s io n t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n c r e a te d i n h e r m i n d t h a t s h e d e fi n i t e l y w il l n o t b e c a ll e d should be corrected. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : W h e th e r s h e is c a l le d o r n o t w i ll b e a d e c i s i o n t h a t c a n b e ta k e n l a t e r. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e w i ll b e g u i d e d b y y o u C h a ir. Page 7 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : To t h a t e x t e n t th o u g h R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s w e r e i n fa c t p r e p a r e d y e s t e r d a y. N o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h e f a c t t h a t w e o n ly r e c e i v e d t h e s ig n e d a ff id a v i t y e s t e r d a y a n d I u n d e r s t a n d f r o m the secretariat that it has in fact been sent out this morning. So there w e r e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s – t h r e e n o tic e s i n p a r t i c u l a r t h a t w e r e s e n t o u t t h is m o r n in g a n d n o n e o f i t h a s r e t u r n e d a s n o t r e c e i v e d . CHAIRPERSON : B u t w h y i s i t s o u r g e n t th a t h e r s t a te m e n t o r h e r a ffi d a v i t s h o u ld b e p a r t o f t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d in g s i f n o t ic e s h a v e n o t b e e n 10 is s u e d a n d s h e is n o t h e r e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e t o d a y ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : I do not understand your question C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y is M s C o e t z e e ’s s t a t e m e n t o r a ff i d a v i t p a r t o f t h e b u n d l e b e fo r e s t a t e – R u le 3 . 3 N o tic e s a r e s e n t o u t a n d h a v e b e e n r e c e i v e d b y t h e r e le v a n t i m p l i c a t e d p e r s o n s w h e n s h e is n o t h e r e t o g iv e e v id e n c e . W h y c a n a ll t h a t n o t w a i t ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Chair the crux of her evidence is in t e g r a t e d o r p a r t s o f t h e e v i d e n c e th a t s h e g iv e s o n a ffi d a v it is in t e g r a t e d i n t o th e e v i d e n c e o f th is p a r t ic u l a r w i tn e s s . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s I k n o w M r K a t z is i tc h i n g t o s a y s o m e t h i n g . Mr K a tz i f i t i s s o m e t h i n g th a t – i f it is n o t a n o b j e c ti o n th e n I c a n h e a r y o u i m m e d i a t e ly b u t i f y o u h a v e a n o b j e c ti o n I c a n h e a r y o u a f t e r fi n i s h i n g w i t h h e r. J a o k a y. Ye s M s S e p t e m b e r. S o w h y s h o u l d h e r e v i d e n c e – h e r a ffi d a v it b e h e r e i n th is – h e r a ff id a v it b e in t h is b u n d l e i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e t h o s e w h o m a y b e i m p l ic a t e d i n h e r a ffi d a v i t h a v e Page 8 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 n o t b e e n g iv e n R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : C h a ir th e y h a v e b e e n g i v e n 3 . 3 N o t ic e s . CHAIRPERSON : When? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n r e s p e c t o f t h e a ff id a v i t t h e y w e r e g iv e n th e m t h i s m o r n i n g . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : In respect… C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is th a t i n c o m p l i a n c e w i t h t h e r u l e s ? 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SE PTEMBER: N o C h a ir i t c e r t a i n ly d o e s n o t c o m p ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t is t h e j u s ti f ic a ti o n f o r n o t c o m p ly in g w i th t h e Rules? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : C h a ir a c c o r d in g to t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s M s M z i m e la d e p o s e d t o h e r a ffi d a v it a n d R u l e 3 . 3 N o tic e s w e r e s e n t o u t in r e s p e c t o f h e r e v id e n c e . The very three people who are i m p l ic a t e d b y A d v o c a te C o e tz e e i n h e r a ffi d a v i t a r e a l s o i m p lic a t e d i n t h e e v i d e n c e o f – o r m a y b e i m p l ic a te d s o r r y in t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s M z i m e l a . A n d s o th e r e is a c o m m o n a li ty i n n o t o n l y th e i d e n ti ty o f t h e 20 p a r t i e s w h o m a y b e i m p l ic a t e d b u t a ls o t h e t y p e o f e v id e n c e t h a t m a y b e le d w h ic h m a y i m p l ic a t e t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e h e a r Mr K a tz . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : M r K a tz . Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : I am not sure whether what I am going to say Page 9 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 c o n s ti t u te s a n o b je c ti o n o r p l a c in g s o m e t h i n g o n r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : B u t t h is m o r n i n g t e n m i n u t e s a g o I w a s g iv e n t h e a ffi d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : Of Ms Coetzee. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : I h a v e lo o k e d a t i t l i te r a ll y i n tw o m i n u t e s a n d what I can say 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : Is th a t w e w o u ld d i s a g r e e w i t h M s S e p te m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : A d v o c a te S e p t e m b e r ’s d e s c r i p ti o n o f i t b e i n g a c o n fir m a t o r y o r i n t e g r a t e d a ffi d a v it . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : T h e r e a r e fa c t s C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : W h ic h a r e w id e r t h a n t h a t d e p o s e d to b y t h e witness. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : In M s C o e tz e e ’s a ff i d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : W h ic h I h a v e n o t e v e n h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o n s i d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 10 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 A D V A N TO N K AT Z : T h e y a r e w i d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : S o i t is n o t c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t i t is a c o n fi r m a to r y o f o n e p a g e c o n fir m a t o r y w h ic h w o u ld b e a d i ff e r e n t th i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : I t is a s u b s t a n tiv e a ffi d a v i t w i t h n e w fa c t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : A n d I w is h to p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V A N TO N K AT Z : As it p l e a s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. W e l l t h e n m a y b e b e fo r e y o u s i t d o w n Mr K a tz I a m – I a m c o n c e r n e d a ll t h e t i m e t h a t i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s s h o u ld g iv e – s h o u ld g e t p r o p e r n o tic e . S o m e t i m e s i t m ig h t n o t b e a s f u ll a n o t ic e a s t h e r u l e s r e q u i r e b u t t h e n t h e y m u s t b e p r o p e r j u s t i fic a ti o n . T h e r e is p r o v is i o n i n t h e r u l e s a s y o u w i l l b e a w a r e f o r a n i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n w h o f e e l s t h a t h e o r s h e w a s n o t g iv e n e n o u g h t i m e i n t e r m s o f t h e ir R u l e 3 .3 N o ti c e t o a p p r o a c h t h e C h a ir p e r s o n fo r w h a t e v e r r e l i e f a n d a t te m p t s w o u l d b e m a d e t o tr y a n d s tr ik e a b a l a n c e . So I am c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h a t p a r t . I n o t e t h a t fr o m y o u r s i d e y o u h a v e n o t h a d 20 e n o u g h t i m e to l o o k a t t h e a ff i d a v i t a n d p r o b a b l y th a t e x p l a i n s w h y y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t o p u t i t a s a n o b je c ti o n b u t y o u j u s t w a n t to p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t t h e a ff id a v i t a p p e a r s to g o b e y o n d w h a t th e p a r tic u l a r ly t h is w i t n e s s h a s s a i d . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : And I C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 11 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 A D V A N TO N K AT Z : A n d I s u p p o s e I w o u ld w a n t a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o c o n s u l t w i t h m y c li e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : A s t o w h e t h e r th e f a c t u a l a l l e g a ti o n s m a d e b y t h e C o e tz e e a ff id a v i t a r e c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : A n d if th e y a r e n o t c o r r e c t th e n I w il l a d v is e h i m a s to w h a t o p t io n s a r e a v a il a b l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V A N TO N K AT Z : Then I would a pproach the c o m m is s i o n a c c o r d i n g ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : B u t a t t h is s t a g e i t w o u l d b e u n f a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V A N TO N K AT Z : I t w o u l d b e u n f a ir f o r m e t o s u g g e s t C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : A n y t h i n g o th e r th a n a s f a r a s t h i s w i t n e s s i s c o n c e r n e d t h a t h e r e v i d e n c e i n c l u d e s t h e a ffi d a v it o f C o e t z e e a t t h i s stage. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : S o w e w o u ld – I s u p p o s e p r i m a f a c i e w e w o u ld a s k t h e C h a ir p e r s o n to r u l e th a t th e e v i d e n c e o f C o e t z e e i s n o t t o b e c o n s i d e r e d a s p a r t o f t h e r e c o r d o r th e c o m m is s i o n u n ti l s u c h ti m e a s m y c li e n t h a s h a d a n o p p o r tu n i t y to c o n s i d e r it a n d m a k e a d e c is i o n a s t o w h e t h e r h e w is h e s t o p la c e a n y e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n , Page 12 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 c r o s s - e x a m in e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : B u t c e r ta i n ly n o t t h r o u g h t h is w i t n e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M a y b e w h a t w e – m a y b e w h a t o n e o f t h e w a y s o f d e a li n g w i th i t w o u ld b e t o a r r a n g e t h a t t h is w i t n e s s fo r t h e n e x t m a y b e tw o h o u r s d o e s n o t g iv e e v i d e n c e th a t w o u l d r e l a t e t o t h is p a r t ic u l a r – to w h a t is c o v e r e d – w h a t i s n o t c o v e r e d – w h a t is n o t c o v e r e d i n h e r o w n a ff id a v i t – i n o th e r w o r d s d o e s n o t g o – d o e s n o t d e a l w i th is s u e s t h a t y o u r c li e n t h a s n o t b e e n n o t i fi e d a b o u t o k a y. 10 M a y b e s h e w a s n o t g o in g t o d o s o b e c a u s e t h is a ff id a v i t – t h o s e m a t t e r s m a y b e f a l l o u ts id e o f h e r k n o w l e d g e a n d t h e y fa ll w i t h i n th e k n o w l e d g e o f M s C o e tz e e o n ly. A D V A N TO N K AT Z : T h a t w o u l d b e [i n d is t i n c t ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a y b e i f s h e – m a y b e i f s h e w e r e t o j u s t fo c u s o n w h a t i s i n h e r e a ff id a v i t b e c a u s e y o u r c li e n t h a s h a d n o t ic e o f t h a t . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n t h a t w o u l d b e f in e a n d – a n d e i t h e r la t e r m a y b e a b o u t te a b r e a k y o u m i g h t h a v e h a d a c h a n c e t o p r o p e r l y l o o k a t Ms C o e tz e e ’s a ffi d a v i t . 20 Yo u m i g h t h a v e h a d a c h a n c e to s p e a k o n t h e p h o n e w i t h y o u r c li e n t a n d a t t h a t s t a g e m a y b e w e t a lk a g a i n a n d s e e w h e r e w e g o . Is t h a t a lr ig h t ? A D V A N TO N K AT Z : I t h i n k – y e s th a t m ig h t b e – w e c a n n o t h a v e a n o b j e c ti o n t o th a t p r o c e s s . CHAIRPERSON : For now yes. A D V A N TO N K AT Z : That seems to me. Page 13 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON: S o l e t m e m a k e n o d e c is i o n n o w b u t le t u s d o t h a t o th e r t h a n t h a t Ms M z i m e la ’s – M s M z i m e l a m u s t b e l e d o n ly i n r e g a r d t o w h a t is i n h e r a ffi d a v it . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : Ye s t h e o t h e r a s p e c t i s I s u p p o s e a l s o j u s t thinking aloud. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V A N TO N K AT Z : I t w o u l d a ls o – m y c l ie n t ’s a t ti t u d e m i g h t a ls o d e p e n d o n t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s r u l i n g a s t o w h e t h e r C o e tz e e is t o g i v e evidence or not. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : B e c a u s e i f th e a ff i d a v i t g o e s i n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : W i t h o u t h e r g iv in g e v id e n c e w e w o u l d h a v e n o o p p o r t u n i ty to c r o s s - e x a m in e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : W e m i g h t h a v e a p a r ti c u la r s ta n c e w h ic h w o u l d m e a n m a k e a n a ff i d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : 20 I f C o e t z e e i s g o i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e w e m ig h t n e e d t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e b u t t h a t w o u ld d e p e n d o n t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s r u l i n g s o th o s e a r e t h e k i n d s o f d y n a m ic s t h e r e a r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : T h a t a r e i n p l a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o t h a t i s f in e . I th in k y o u c a n t a k e i t th a t m y approach w o u ld be that if a w i t n e s s ’ e v id e n c e Page 14 of 218 appears to be 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 c o n tr o v e r s i a l o r in d i s p u t e a s f a r a s p o s s i b le t h e y s h o u l d c o m e a n d g iv e evidence. A D V A N TO N K AT Z : I a m n o t e v e n in a p o s i ti o n t o s a y w h e t h e r m y c li e n t d i s p u t e s w h a t is in … CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s s o I a m j u s t s a y i n g to t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h a t m i g h t h e lp y o u i n u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h a t is l i k e l y t o h a p p e n . I j u s t m a k e t h a t s t a te m e n t k n o w n . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : T h a n k y o u , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e th e n a d e c is i o n c a n b e t a k e n . I 10 h a v e n o t r e a d t h e a ffi d a v it o f Ms C o e tz e e I h a v e r e a d M s M z i m e l a ’s a ffi d a v i t s o I … A D V A N TO N K AT Z : I a ls o h a v e n o t r e a d it . CHAIRPERSON : So [talking over one another] A D V A N TO N K AT Z : S o w e in t h e s a m e b o a t M r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y a lr i g h t s o w e – s o y o u – w e w il l p r o c e e d o n t h e b a s i s t h a t M s M z i m e la w i ll g i v e e v id e n c e in a c c o r d a n c e w it h h e r a ffi d a v i t a n d a ft e r t e a w e w i ll r e - v i s i t t h e m a t t e r a f t e r y o u h a v e h a d a c h a n c e t o r e a d th e – M s C o e tz e e ’s a ff id a v i t . A D V A N TO N K AT Z : 20 T h a n k y o u , th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . M s S e p t e m b e r. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : G o o d d a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s w h a t I i n t e n d d o in g , is t h a t fi n e w it h y o u ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : C h a ir b e f o r e – w h i le o b v i o u s l y g u i d e d b y y o u r d ir e c t io n . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. Page 15 of 218 we are 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d y o u r d e c is i o n o n t h i s p a r ti c u la r m a t t e r I w i s h t o p l a c e t h e f o ll o w i n g o n r e c o r d . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d th a t is to e n s u r e th a t t h e r e is a n a c c u r a c y o f t h e s te p s t h a t h a v e b e e n t a k e n i n s o fa r a s th e R u l e 3 . 3 . N o t ic e a r e c o n c e r n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h o s e R u le 3 . 3 N o tic e s a s f a r a s I u n d e r s ta n d – a s fa r a s I u n d e r s ta n d fr o m y o u i n r e g a r d t o M s C o e tz e e w e r e o n ly t a k e n e i t h e r t h is m o r n i n g o r y e s t e r d a y. 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SE PTEMBER: C h a ir t h e s u b m is s i o n s t h a t I w o u ld lik e t o p u t o n r e c o r d i s s p e c i fic a lly to t h a t w h i c h m y l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e h a s p r e s e n te d h e r e t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d s o i n s o fa r a s w h a t h e h a s m e n ti o n e d I w o u l d l ik e t h e f o ll o w i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a i d t h e y d o n o t a g r e e w i t h y o u t h a t M s C o e t z e e ’s a ffi d a v i t is s i m p l y c o r r o b o r a tiv e o f M s M z i m e la ’s a ffi d a v i t . S h e s a i d i t g o e s – i t g o e s b e y o n d t h a t a t le a s t t h a t i s t h e i m p r e s s i o n h e h a s g o t a ft e r r e a d i n g it f o r a v e r y s h o r t t i m e . H e h a s n o t h a d ti m e t o l o o k a t it 20 in m o r e d e t a i l . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : And I c e r t a in ly do note the s u b m is s io n s t h a t h e m a k e s b u t w i t h y o u r le a v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I w o u l d ju s t l ik e to c la r i fy s o m e t h in g C h a ir. C h a ir in r e g a r d to m y le a r n e d c o ll e a g u e ’s c li e n t i n p a r t ic u l a r M r Page 16 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 K o n a h e h a d r e c e iv e d R u l e 3 .3 N o ti c e s i n r e s p e c t o f b o t h t h i s w i t n e s s M s Mz i m e la a n d t h a t w a s s e n t to h i m t i m e o u s l y o n th e 1 2 J u n e . CHAIRPERSON : No, no. M s M z i m e l a ’s o n e i s n o t a s fa r a s I u n d e r s t a n d is n o t i n d is p u te . It is M s C o e t z e e ’s o n e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I m a y ju s t c l a r i fy a fe w … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : S o Mr K o n a h a d r e c e iv e d t h e R u le 3 .3 N o ti c e i n r e s p e c t o f M s M z i m e l a ’s e v id e n c e o n th e 1 2 J u n e 2 0 1 9 w h ic h is a t i m e o u s s e n d i n g o f th a t n o tic e . H a v i n g s a i d t h a t th a t n o tic e 10 in c l u d e d a c o p y o f th e s ta t e m e n t o f M s S a n d r a C o e tz e e a n d t h a t s t a te m e n t fo r ms p a r t o f th e b u n d l e o f M s M z i m e l a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s i t s i g n e d ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I s i t i d e n ti c a l to t h is ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : e x a c tl y th e s a m e d o c u m e n t . Th e s t a te m e n t is – y e s C h a ir i t is T h e o n ly d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n A n n e x u r e 6 t o M s M z i m e la ’s a ffi d a v it a n d th e a ffi d a v i t w h ic h w a s s ig n e d o ff y e s t e r d a y is t h a t t h e o n e w a s d e p o s e d t o b e fo r e a c o m m i s s i o n e r o f oaths. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e i s a n a ff i d a v i t ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e o th e r o n e w a s n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o t h e r o n e i s a s t a te m e n t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : S o i n s o fa r a s k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t is Page 17 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 c o n ta in e d i n th e R u le 3 .3 N o tic e s c o n c e r n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : I f i n d it v e r y h a r d to b e li e v e th a t t h e r e c a n n o t b e a n y k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t is c o n ta in e d i n th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u a r e – y o u a r e – y o u a r e t e ll i n g m e … A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A ff id a v i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t p a r t f o r th e fi r s t ti m e . Yo u s h o u l d h a v e t o ld m e b e f o r e M r K a tz s t o o d u p to s a y a lt h o u g h t h i s a ffi d a v i t o f M s C o e t z e e h a s n o t b e e n s e n t t o – is i t M r K o n a ? 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : It has been sent twice. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o th e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Mr Kona yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u s h o u l d h a v e s a i d a lt h o u g h t h i s a ffi d a v i t h a s n o t b e e n s e n t t o h i m a s t a t e m e n t t h a t w a s n o t a n a ff i d a v i t t h a t is e x a c tl y i d e n ti c a l w a s s e n t t o h i m t o g e t h e r w i t h M s M z i m e l a ’s a ffi d a v it . T h a t is w h a t y o u s h o u l d h a v e s a i d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n c l e a r e r. CHAIRPERSON : T h a t – th a t – t h a t m a y g iv e a d i ffe r e n t y o u k n o w c o l o u r t o t h e w h o l e m a tt e r. 20 B u t w h a te v e r h a p p e n s m a y b e w h a t w e s h o u l d d o is a f t e r te a b r e a k w h e n M r K a tz h a s h a d a c h a n c e t o t a k e in s t r u c t i o n s o n e v e r y t h in g a n d l e t m e h e a r w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n is b u t i n t h e m e a n ti m e t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o p r o b l e m in u s c o n t i n u i n g o n t h e b a s is t h a t I in d i c a t e d b e c a u s e s h e is n o t – Ms M z i m e l a is n o t g o in g t o fi n i s h her evidence before the tea break. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : W e c e r ta i n ly w il l n o t r e a c h th a t Page 18 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t e a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o – s o I t h in k le t u s p u t e v e r y t h i n g i n a b a g a f t e r t e a I w il l h e a r w h a t th e l a te s t is . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : O n e o t h e r t h in g t o j u s t b r i n g to t h e a tt e n ti o n o f th e c o m m is s i o n C h a ir is t h a t w e h a v e c e r t a i n ly r e c e iv e d two w e h a v e r e c e iv e d i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t tw o o f t h e p a r ti e s w h o a r e i m p l ic a t e d in t h is w i t n e s s – in t h e e v id e n c e o f M s M z i m e la m a y b r in g a n 10 a p p lic a ti o n a s s o m e l a te r s t a g e . CHAIRPERSON : J a w e w i ll s e e i t w h e n i t c o m e s – w h e n t h e a p p lic a ti o n s c o m e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : E x e r c is e [ in d i s ti n c t ] b u t t h e r e is nothing we have. [CHAIRPERSON AND ADV SEPTEMBER SPEAKING OVER ONE ANOTHER] C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o w i t h y o u r l e a v e c a n th e o a t h please be administered? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p l e a s e a d m i n is t e r th e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n / R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S iz a k e l e P e tu n ia M x i m e l a . REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : No. Page 19 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r conscience? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n l y s w e a r t h a t a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w il l g iv e w il l b e t h e tr u t h ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u t h ; i f s o p l e a s e r a is e r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e G o d . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o h e lp m e G o d . REGISTRAR: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. 10 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : b u n d l e a n d th a t is m a r k e d D D 1 4 . M s M z i m e la b e fo r e y o u y o u h a v e a Can I ask you to turn to page 1 p l e a s e ? D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h i s d o c u m e n t? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s I d o . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t is i t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t is a d o c u m e n t th a t I p r e p a r e d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 F o r s u b m is s i o n t o t h e s t a t e c a p tu r e c o m m i s s io n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Can I ask you to b r in g the m ic r o p h o n e a li t tl e b i t c l o s e r p l e a s e i t is s o ft . T h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s y o u r v o ic e w a s s o f t m a y b e y o u m i g h t n e e d t o r a i s e i t b u t m a y b e n o w th a t th e m ic r o p h o n e is c lo s e r i t m ig h t n o t b e n e c e s s a r y s o l e t u s s e e . O k a y. Page 20 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I a s k y o u to … S o r r y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I w a s c o n f ir m in g C h a ir t h a t I a m f a m ili a r w i th th e d o c u m e n t in fr o n t o f m e a s t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t I a c t u a l ly provided. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: please? 10 C a n I a s k y o u to tu r n t o p a g e 3 7 Whose signature appears on that page above the word d e p o n e n t? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t is m y s i g n a t u r e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: Is i t th e r e f o r c o r r e c t th a t y o u d e p o s e d t o t h i s a ff id a v i t b e fo r e a c o m m i s s io n e r o f o a t h s o n th e 6 J u n e 2019? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is i t a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t f o r a c c u r a c y o f r e c o r d w h e n y o u d e p o s e d t o t h e a ffi d a v i t y o u d id n o t d o s o w i th t h e in c l u s i o n o f t h e a n n e x u r e s t o t h e a ff id a v i t? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is also correct. 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : M s M z i m e l a c a n y o u p l e a s e li s t o r e x p l a i n / d is c u s s y o u r a c a d e m ic q u a l i fic a ti o n s to t h e C h a ir p l e a s e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : C h a ir I h o l d a B A i n E c o n o m ic s a n d S t a t is ti c s a n d h a v e o b v io u s ly a ls o b e n e f i tt e d fr o m o t h e r e x e c u ti v e Page 21 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 development programs and further professional development programs. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : W h a t p o s i t io n d o y o u c u r r e n tl y h o l d M r Mz i m e l a ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I c u r r e n t ly h o l d th e p o s i t io n C h a ir o f I n te r i m C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff ic e r fo r S o u t h A f r ic a n Ex p r e s s A ir w a y s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d i n p a r t ic u l a r w h a t p o s it i o n d id y o u h o ld d u r in g t h e t i m e o f 1 A p r il 2 0 1 0 u n t il a b o u t th e 8 t h o r 9 t h October 2012? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I h e l d th e p o s it i o n o f G r o u p C h ie f 10 E x e c u t iv e o f S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d is it c o r r e c t t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y r e l a t e s t o y o u r t e n u r e a s G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ff i c e r o f S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n p a g e 2 y o u g iv e a l is ti n g o f y o u r e m p l o y m e n t h i s to r y. C a n I a s k y o u t o p l e a s e ta k e u s t h r o u g h y o u r e m p l o y m e n t h is t o r y w i t h t h e p a r t ic u l a r f o c u s o n a n y r o le s i n w h i c h g o v e r n a n c e p la y e d a d o m i n a n t a s p e c t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 Without going into every single p o s i ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e r e a r e v e r y m a n y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t h o s e t h a t y o u c o n s id e r i m p o r t a n t i n t h e c o n t e x t of governance. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I n d e e d C h a ir. S o f i r s tly I m e a n I Page 22 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 d o h a v e o v e r 2 2 y e a r s i n a v i a ti o n a s m o s t o f m y ti m e h a s a c t u a l ly b e e n spent in the aviation space. I h a v e a ls o b e e n in a p o s i t io n a s E x e c u t iv e Vi c e Pr e s id e n t s o i n te r ms o f t h e e x e c u t iv e p o s i t io n s E x e c u t iv e Vi c e Pr e s id e n t o f G lo b a l S a l e s a n d Vo y a g e r a n d a ls o a s E x e c u t iv e Vic e P r e s i d e n t o f G l o b a l P a s s e n g e r S e r v ic e s . Post that I w a s C h ie f E x e c u tiv e O ff ic e r fo r S A E x p r e s s d u r in g 2 0 0 3 u p t o M a r c h 2 0 1 0 a t w h i c h p o in t I th e n m o v e d a c r o s s t o S A A a s G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e o f S A A a n d I w a s th e r e u n ti l 2 0 1 2 . After I left SAA I was C h i e f E x e c u ti v e a n d E x e c u t iv e C h a ir o f B l u e C r a n e u n t il I r e t u r n e d i n t o 10 t h e S O C a s p a r t o f th e M i n is te r i a l t a s k t e a m i n J u n e 2 0 1 8 w h e n S A Express was grounded. And as of the 1 August 2018 I am now the Interim CEO of SA Express. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : S o b y a n d l a r g e t h e r o l e s th a t y o u h a v e h a d d u r i n g y o u r e m p l o y m e n t h i s t o r y i n c l u d e d m a n y r o le s o f – in e x e c u tiv e s p o s i t io n s o r v e r y s e n i o r m a n a g e r i a l p o s it i o n s , is th a t r i g h t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct and I did also have t h e b e n e fi t o f b e i n g a n o n - e x e c u t iv e d ir e c t o r o n v a r io u s o th e r e n t i ti e s and boards. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : 20 So through your experience in your e m p l o y m e n t h is t o r y a t th e v e r y le a s t y o u h a v e a g o o d u n d e r s t a n d i n g o r y o u a r e r e q u ir e d a n d w e r e r e q u i r e d t o h a v e a g o o d u n d e r s t a n d in g o f g o v e r n a n c e p r i n c i p le s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I t w a s a ls o s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s e m p h a s is e d b y th e t h e n b o a r d o f S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s e v e n a s p a r t o f th e in t e r v ie w in g p r o c e s s i n jo i n i n g S A A a s Page 23 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Thank you. And now if we can just lo o k q u ic k ly t o S A A b e in g S o u th A fr ic a n A i r w a y s a s a n o r g a n is a ti o n a n d in p a r t ic u l a r t h e fr a m e w o r k u n d e r w h i c h i t o p e r a t e s . A r e y o u f a m il ia r w i t h t h e f r a m e w o r k u n d e r w h ic h S A A o p e r a t e s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s I a m C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d i s it t h e n c o r r e c t t h a t li k e a ll p e r s o n i n S o u t h A fr i c a w h ic h is o b l ig e d t o o b s e r v e a n d u p h o l d t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l p r in c i p l e s o f th e c o n s t i tu t i o n o f th e R e p u b lic o f S o u th 10 A fr ic a S A A a ls o s u b s c r i b e s to p r in c i p l e s o f t h e S o u th A fr ic a n A ir w a y s A c t, t h e P u b l ic Fi n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t a n d a p p l ic a b l e tr e a s u r y r e g u la t io n s a n d i t a ls o s u b s c r i b e s to t h e K i n g R e p o r t o n g o v e r n a n c e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Is t h e r e a n y o t h e r a s p e c t o r p r i n c i p l e s th a t y o u a r e a w a r e o f w h ic h m a y a u g m e n t t h is fr a m e w o r k ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I n t h i s r e g a r d o b v io u s ly w i t h i n S A A t h e r e a r e v a r i o u s d o c u m e n ts th a t e x is t e d s u c h a s th e M O I . The s ig n if ic a n c e a n d m a t e r ia li ty f r a m e w o r k a n d t h e s h a r e h o l d e r s c o m p a c t a n d th e c o r p o r a t e p l a n . 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMB ER : Thank you. Before we look at those d o c u m e n ts i n a b i t m o r e d e t a i l o r r a t h e r b e f o r e y o u s h a r e y o u r e v i d e n c e in r e l a ti o n t o th a t a s a n a t io n a l p u b lic e n t i ty i t i s – i t s u b s c r i b e s t o th e p r i n c i p l e s o f t h e P u b lic F in a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t, c o r r e c t ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d C h a ir w e k n o w t h a t t h e o b je c t o f Page 24 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 that Act is to secure tr a n s p a r e n c y a c c o u n t a b il it y and sound m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e r e v e n u e e x p e n d i tu r e a s s e ts a n d li a b i li ti e s o f th e in s t i tu t io n . W e a ls o k n o w t h a t t h r o u g h t h e P u b l ic Fi n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t th a t f u n d in g is fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l R e v e n u e F u n d w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d t o b e th e G o v e r n m e n t P u r s e . I n s o d o in g d o e s S A A – w h o d o e s S A A account to? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S A A a c c o u n t s t o th e s h a r e h o ld e r r e p r e s e n t a tiv e w h ic h i n m y c a s e a t th a t t i m e a n d s ti ll i s t o d a y w a s th e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n te r p r is e s . 10 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t a t i t a c c o u n ts to the shareholder through the Cabinet Mem ber who has been appointed f o r t h e p a r t ic u l a r p o r t f o l io u n d e r w h ic h S A A fa ll s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Sorry could you please repeat that. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : No problem. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Is it correct that SAA would account t o P a r l ia m e n t – s o r r y … MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h r o u g h th e C a b i n e t M e m b e r u n d e r w h o s e p o r t f o l i o S A A f a l ls ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA: That is correct. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : So during your tenure as Group Chief … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l is t h a t – i s t h a t – i s t h a t a c c u r a t e – th e t h r o u g h Page 25 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 p a r t – is i t a c c u r a t e ? I s th e p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t b o t h S A A M a n a g e m e n t a n d S - t h e S A A B o a r d c o u l d b e c a l le d b y th e r e l e v a n t p o r t f o l i o c o m m i t t e e t o P a r li a m e n t a n d t o – to a c c o u n t q u i t e a p a r t f r o m w h a te v e r o b li g a ti o n s t h e r e l e v a n t M i n i s t e r m i g h t h a v e h a d o r m i g h t h a v e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h a t w a s a ls o c o r r e c t – I m e a n – C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Indeed we can - the Board or the M a n a g e m e n t is o f te n c a l le d … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : D ir e c t ly – I m e a n – b y P a r l i a m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I u n d e r s to o d t h e q u e s ti o n t o b e m o r e w h o th e r e p r e s e n t a tiv e i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : O f | G o v e r n m e n t a n d w h o li a i s e s C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: With Government between the e n t i ty i n P a r l i a m e n t . 20 CHAIRPERSON : N o , n o I – I u n d e r s ta n d . M a y b e th e q u e s ti o n m i g h t h a v e w a n d e r e d b a c k b u t t h e t h r o u g h p a r t – I t h in k – w h a t I w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t b e c a u s e i t c o u ld c r e a t e a w r o n g i m p r e s s i o n . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I a m – I a m in d e b t e d to y o u f o r t h e Page 26 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 c la r i ty C h a ir. D u r in g y o u r t e n u r e a s G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r o f S A A u n d e r w h i c h d e p a r t m e n t d i d S A A f a l l? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S A A f e ll u n d e r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d s o th e r e s p o n s i b l e M i n i s t e r w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e M i n i s t e r o f P u b li c E n t e r p r i s e s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d d u r in g y o u r o ff ic e o f A p r i l 2 0 1 0 u n t il O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 w h o w e r e t h e M i n i s te r s u n d e r w h o m y o u s e r v e d ? 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I – s o C h a i r i n i ti a lly … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : J a . S o i n i ti a lly … C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e d i d n o t s e r v e u n d e r a M in is t e r. S h e d i d n o t s e r v e u n d e r a M i n i s te r. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M y b a d c h o ic e o f w o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e is – I t h in k th e q u e s t io n is w h o w a s t h e M i n i s t e r o f P u b lic E n t e r p r i s e s ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A t th e ti m e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: 20 Ye s i n d e e d . S o t h a n k y o u C h a ir. W h e n I i n it i a l ly j o i n e d S A A t h e M i n i s te r o f P u b lic E n t e r p r i s e s w a s M s B a r b a r a H o g a n b u t b y t h e ti m e I le f t i n 2 0 1 2 t h e M i n i s t e r w a s Mr Malusi Gigaba. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: S o th e th e n M i n is te r M a l u s i G i g a b a a n d w h o w a s t h e r e a t t h e ti m e w h e n y o u l e ft w h e n - d o y o u r e c a l l w h e n Page 27 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 h e t o o k o ff ic e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I w o u l d n o t a c tu a l ly – C h a i r I w o u ld but I think not recall the exact date it w i ll b e around November 2010 if I am correct. CHAIRPERSON : W e l l I h a v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e b y o t h e r w it n e s s e s t h a t Ms Barbara Hogan was d is m is s e d as Minister at the end of October 2000 … MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : 2010. CHAIRPERSON : 2010. 10 MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct yes. CHAIRPERSON : I t h i n k 2 0 1 0 a n d t h a t M i n is t e r G ig a b a w a s a p p o in t e d a s h e r – a s – a s h e r s u c c e s s o r. So he would have starte d in November 2010. MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : November 2010. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . N o w t o l o o k p a r ti c u la r ly to governance – governance principles the i m p le m e n t a ti o n of g o v e r n a n c e . W h a t i s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f g o o d c o r p o r a te g o v e r n a n c e 20 b a s e d o n y o u r e x p e r i e n c e a n d k n o w l e d g e a c q u ir e d o v e r t h e y e a r s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Chair my understanding of good c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e is w h e n t h e r e is a v e r y c l e a r fr a m e w o r k o r r u le b o o k t h a t e n s u r e s t h a t th e r e is f a ir n e s s a n d t h e r e i s tr a n s p a r e n c y a n d in t h a t r e g a r d th e r e is v e r y c l e a r a ll o c a ti o n o f d u t ie s in o r d e r t o - t o e n s u r e t h a t tr a n s p a r e n c y a n d f a ir n e s s a n d a ls o t o e n s u r e th a t w e – w e Page 28 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 a d h e r e to c o m p l ia n c e in r e l a ti o n t o d e c i s i o n s th a t a r e ta k e n w it h in t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u a n d i n y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g h o w a r e g o o d c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e p r in c ip l e s i m p l e m e n te d w i t h i n a n in s t i tu t io n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: In my understanding we ensure t h a t v i a t h e v a r i o u s d o c u m e n t a ti o n s t h a t w o u ld – w h i c h I s e e m o r e a s d e l e g a ti o n s o f a u t h o r i ty b e t w e e n w h a t w o u l d b e t h e s h a r e h o l d e r a n d the Board, the Board and management and management and – sorry – 10 t h e B o a r d a n d t h e C E O a n d C E O t o – to m a n a g e m e n t . T h a t i s t h e o n e b u t a ls o it i s e n s u r i n g th a t w i th in t h e o r g a n i s a t io n i ts e lf th a t t h e r e is v e r y c l e a r d is t in c ti o n in te r ms o f w h a t is t h e B o a r d r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a n d h o w d o w e a c tu a lly e n s u r e th a t w h e n d e c is i o n s a r e ta k e n t h e y g o th r o u g h t h e c o r r e c t p r o c e s s e s w h ic h i n t h e case of SAA at the time there were various sub -committees that had a c t u a ll y b e e n f o r m e d t o p r o c e s s s o m e o f t h a t w o r k th r o u g h to th e Board. C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s a l s o w h a t th e s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n ta t iv e c a n d o o r c a n n o t d o w o u l d f a ll u n d e r g o v e r n a n c e – p r o p e r g o v e r n a n c e 20 rules? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : J a . T h e r e – th e r e is a li n e b e y o n d w h ic h h e o r s h e cannot or should not go … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d a ls o i n r e la t io n t o t h e B o a r d - a s y o u h a v e Page 29 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 m e n ti o n e d – w h a t a r e a s t h e y s h o u l d n o t g o i n t o a n d w h a t a r e a s t h e y n e e d t o d e a l w it h ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: B e f o r e w e lo o k a t s o m e o f t h e r e g u la t o r y d o c u m e n ts i n a b i t m o r e d e ta il w h o a r e t h e p r i m a r y s t a k e h o ld e r s t h a t is i n v o l v e d i n u p h o l d in g g o v e r n a n c e p r i n c i p le s w i t h i n a S t a te O w n e d E n t it y s u c h a s S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s ? Yo u h a v e a l r e a d y m e n ti o n e d th e s h a r e h o l d e r. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ja. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t – w a s t h e q u e s t i o n w h o t h e s t a k e h o ld e r s a r e ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h o th e p r i m a r y s h a r e h o l d e r s a r e i n upholding governance ….? CHAIRPERSON : Shareholders? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Who the primary stakeholders are … C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a k e h o ld e r s ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: In u p h o l d i n g g o v e r n a n c e p r i n c ip le s w i t h i n a S t a t e O w n e d E n t i ty ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: C h a ir m y r e s p o n s e t o t h a t w o u l d b e th a t – w e l l t h e s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n t a ti v e is d e f in i te ly a k e y 20 s t a k e h o ld e r i n e n s u r i n g g o v e r n a n c e a n d I s a y a k e y s t a k e h o l d e r b e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d a l s o – I th i n k e a r l ie r o n y o u m e n ti o n e d P a r li a m e n t a n d C a b in e t t h a t t h e y a r e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e . S o I t a k e i t t h a t t h e y a r e a ls o e n s u r in g t h a t t h e y n o t in s t r u c t i o n b u t e n s u r e t h a t t h e y a p p ly g o v e r n a n c e o r c o m p l i a n c e to g o v e r n a n c e a c c o r d in g t o w h a t w o u ld b e e x p e c te d fr o m P a r li a m e n t a s Page 30 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 w e ll a n d t h e n a s I h a v e s a id t h e s h a r e h o ld e r is – is t h e n e x t o n e – I m e a n – w h o w o u ld e n s u r e - I m e a n – g o v e r n a n c e . F o r m e a f t e r t h a t i t w o u l d b e th e – t h e B o a r d o f t h e e n ti ty w h o … ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: B e fo r e w e t u r n – b e fo r e w e t u r n t o t h e B o a r d w h o a p p o i n t s t h e M in is t e r ? C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n – h a n g o n . S h e h a s n o t fi n i s h e d t e l li n g y o u the stakeholders. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e a s k in g h e r … A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : J a , s o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : To te ll y o u th e s t a k e h o ld e r s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Okay and th e n in terms of e n s u r i n g i t w o u l d b e t h e B o a r d a n d a s I a lr e a d y i n d ic a t e d t h e B o a r d t h e n u ti li s e s v a r io u s c o m m i t t e e s to e n s u r e t h a t t h e y o v e r s e e s p e c i fic a r e a s o f g o v e r n a n c e w i th i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n o r c o m p li a n c e to – to g o v e r n a n c e i n t h e a r e a b u t w i t h i n th e o r g a n is a ti o n i ts e l f th e r e a r e a ls o 20 a d d it i o n a l i n d iv id u a ls w h o w o u l d b e e m p l o y e d t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e is c o m p li a n c e t o th e – t o th e r u l e s a n d r e g u la ti o n s o r g o o d g o v e r n a n c e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d w h o w o u l d th o s e a d d i ti o n a l people be? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: In t h e c a s e o f S A A a t t h e t i m e i t w o u ld o b v io u s ly b e t h e – t h e p e r s o n w h o h e a d s u p t h e R i s k a n d Page 31 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C o m p l ia n c e P o r t f o l io . I t w o u l d b e t h e p e r s o n w h o lo o k s – t h e L e g a l – t h e H e a d o f L e g a l w o u l d a ls o b e r e s p o n s ib le f o r t h a t c o m p l ia n c e . CHAIRPERSON : B u t th e – w o u ld t h e C E O a ls o n o t b e a p e r s o n w h o m u s t e n s u r e th a t t h e o r g a n is a ti o n h e o r s h e l e a d s c o m p l ie s w i th g o o d governance? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir. I think I ju s t f o r g o t m y s e l f i n th e l o o p . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u fo r g o t y o u r s e l f? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you and so you have m e n ti o n e d th e s h a r e h o l d e r w h ic h is t h e M i n is t e r. I s t h a t r i g h t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: That is – th e shareholder r e p r e s e n t a tiv e b e c a u s e th e s h a r e h o l d e r … A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e s h a r e h o ld e r r e p r e s e n ta t iv e i s t h e Minister? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d w h o a p p o i n t s a n y p a r ti c u l a r M i n is t e r ? D o y o u k n o w ? 20 CHAIRPERSON : O h M s S e p t e m b e r. E v e r y b o d y k n o w s w h o a p p o i n ts M i n is t e r s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: In t h a t i n s t a n c e t h e n w h o w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h e t i m e o f y o u r te n u r e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: President Jacob Zuma. Page 32 of 218 The Pr e s i d e n t was 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you. C a n I k n o w a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it p le a s e ? C h a ir t h e d ia g r a m o n th is p a g e is r e a ll y s m a ll a n d s o w e h a v e i n f a c t p r e s e n t e d – i n c l u d e d o n th e n e x t page a bigger … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o p y o f t h e d i a g r a m i ts e lf . CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: W h a t d o e s th is d ia g r a m r e p r e s e n t M s Mz i m e la ? 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h i s d i a g r a m r e p r e s e n ts w h a t I w a s a lr e a d y t o i n t e r m s o f h o w g o v e r n a n c e w a s m a n a g e d a t S A A a t th e ti m e I w a s t h e r e . S o i t i n d ic a te s th e – th e M in is tr y a n d t h a t th e B o a r d r e p o r t e d t o th e M i n is tr y … A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A n d t h a t – b e lo w – b e lo w t h e B o a r d y o u h a d v a r i o u s s u b - c o m m i t t e e s a n d I h a v e li s te d th o s e s u b committees. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y p u t a t t h e r ig h t p la c e i n t h a t diagram? 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In t e r m s o f t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y … C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f th e h i e r a r c h y ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Oh. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: So Page 33 of 218 the company secretary 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 r e p o r t e d t o th e B o a r d a n d s h o u l d h a v e p r o b a b l y b e e n b e l o w t h e B o a r d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is w h a t I a m t a l k in g … MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: But was placed there in order to a ls o i n d ic a te t h a t s o m e o f t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o t h e M i n is tr y w o u ld g o t h r o u g h th e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y a t t h e o ffi c e i n o r d e r t o e n s u r e c o m p li a n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t s h o u ld n o t b e a r e a s o n f o r h e r t o b e o r h i m t o b e a b o v e t h e B o a r d in t h e d i a g r a m ? 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t is j u s t t h a t it i s i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e t h e - a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t th e d i a g r a m i s s u p p o s e d to s h o w t h e s tr u c tu r e s a s w e ll a s s tr u c t u r e s / o ffic e r s / o ffi c i a l s a s w e l l a s t h e h ie r a r c h y. T h a t i s – t h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g . S o w h e n I s e e t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y w h e r e – b e e n b e f o r e – b e t w e e n th e B o a r d a n d th e M in i s tr y i t s e e m e d u n u s u a l t o m e b u t y o u – y o u s a y – y o u s a y m y th in k i n g is r i g h t? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Yo u r t h i n k in g i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , o k a y. Th a n k y o u . I i n t e r r u p t e d y o u . Yo u m a y proceed. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Please proceed. MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Oh and then … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Th e r e a r e th e s u b - c o m m i t t e e s a n d Page 34 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 you then see that there was a Group CEO and because it was the G r o u p C E O I t h e n i n d ic a t e t h e a r e a s th a t a c tu a lly f e l l u n d e r t h e – th e G r o u p C E O w h ic h w e r e t h e C E O a t t h e t i m e w h i c h w a s C E O o f S AT C w h ic h is S o u th A f r i c a n Tr a v e l C e n t r e , t h e C E O o f M a n g o th e C E O o f A ir C h e fs a n d t h e C E O o f S A Te c h n i c a l a n d t h e n t h e o t h e r – t h o s e w e r e s u b s i d ia r i e s o f S A A – a n d th e n th e n e x t l a y e r i n d i c a t e s – a n d i t is n o t t h e m o r e la y e r b e c a u s e t h e y a r e m o r e o r l e s s a t th e s a m e le v e l a s t h e CEOs. T h e d i ff e r e n c e b e i n g t h a t t h e o th e r s a r e c a ll e d C E O s b e c a u s e 10 t h e y a r e C E O s o f s u b s i d i a r ie s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A n d t h e n th e G M s w e r e t h e - t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r s w i t h i n S A A i ts e l f . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: So … C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d th e – w o u l d t h e C o m m i t t e e s t h a t a p p e a r i n b l u e ju s t u n d e r i n t e r n a l a u d i t o r w o u l d t h o s e b e B o a r d C o m m i t t e e s o r Management Committees? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: C h a ir. 20 Those are Board Committees S o w h e n w e t a l k a b o u t r e m u n e r a ti o n a n d t h e – a n d H u m a n Resources Committee … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Those were committees of the Board. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f th e B o a r d . O h , o k a y. N o I w a s b e g i n n i n g t o t h in k I m a y h a v e b e e n w r o n g i n t h i n k in g th a t i t r e fl e c ts th e h i e r a r c h y a s w e l l Page 35 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 b e c a u s e I s e e t h e G r o u p C E O w a s b e lo w t h o s e c o m m i t te e s b u t i f t h e y a r e B o a r d C o m m i t t e e s t h e n – t h e n t h a t is i n o r d e r. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s S e p te m b e r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. So just to clarify t h e B o a r d r e p o r ts t o t h e M i n is tr y b u t th e B o a r d h a s s u b - c o m m i t t e e s . F o r th e r e c o r d c a n y o u r e a d th e – t h e n a m e s o f t h e s u b - c o m m i t te e s please? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: 10 At the ti m e we had the R e m u n e r a ti o n a n d H u m a n R e s o u r c e s C o m m i t t e e – S u b - c o m m i t te e . It w a s t h e P r o c u r e m e n t a n d Te n d e r P r o c e s s e s S u b - c o m m i t te e , S o c i a l a n d E t h i c s G o v e r n a n c e a n d M o n i to r i n g S u b - c o m m i t t e e , t h e F in a n c e a n d R i s k a n d I n v e s t m e n t S u b - c o m m i t t e e a n d t h e A u d i t C o m m i t te e . CHAIRPERSON : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u a n d s o i f – u n le s s m y c o l o u r is o u t o f s y n c – if w e c o u ld l o o k a t t h e p i n k / p u r p le c o l o u r. Is i t c o r r e c t th a t t h a t p a r t o f th e d ia g r a m w h ic h i s fr o m G r o u p C E O a n d b e l o w t h a t w o u ld e ff e c tiv e ly b e t h e – t h e m a n a g e m e n t w i t h i n S A A ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i n d o i n g s o t h e f ir s t – r a t h e r t h e s u b - c o m m i t t e e – t h e B o a r d S u b - c o m m i t t e e s w h i c h i n e ff e c t r e p o r ts t o t h e B o a r d – w h a t e x a c t ly i s t h e p u r p o s e o f th e s e B o a r d S u b committees? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Some – so there are sub- c o m m i t t e e s w h ic h a r e s t a tu t o r y s u b - c o m m i t te e s s u c h a s th e – t h e A u d it Page 36 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C o m m i t t e e a n d – a n d t h e r o le o f t h e – t h e A u d i t C o m m i t t e e i s t o r e v ie w a l l m a t te r s r e la t in g t o fi n a n c e s w i t h i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d r i s k a s w e ll t h a t w o u ld a c t u a ll y f a l l u n d e r t h a t. I n th e c a s e o f S A A y o u w o u l d s e e t h a t t h e r e w a s a t th e t i m e a s p e c i f ic c o m m i t t e e t h a t l o o k e d o r to o k r e s p o n s i b i li ty fo r f in a n c e r is k a n d i n v e s t m e n t a n d i t w a s q u i t e s p e c i f ic f o r a c e r t a in p e r io d a n d t h e r e a f te r i t f o l d e d b a c k in t o th e A u d i t C o m m i t t e e w h i c h w a s – w h i c h is t h e c o r r e c t h o m e f o r i t to a c t u a l ly r e s i d e b u t b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e s p e c i f ic a l ly c h a l l e n g e s d u r i n g th a t p e r i o d t h e B o a r d fe l t i t w a s 10 n e c e s s a r y fo r t h e m t o f o r m a s u b - c o m m i t t e e w h ic h lo o k e d a t t h e r is k a n d i n v e s t m e n t q u i te s p e c if ic a l ly w i t h i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Befo re you move onto th e s u b - c o m m i t t e e c a n y o u g i v e u s s o m e e x a m p le o f m a t te r s t h a t th e fi n a n c e r is k a n d i n v e s t m e n t w o u ld c o n s i d e r f o r c o n s i d e r a t io n b y t h e Board? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o e x a m p l e s o f w h a t t h e – th e Fi n a n c e R i s k a n d I n v e s t m e n t C o m m i t t e e w o u ld c o n s i d e r w o u l d b e m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g to t h e c lo s u r e o f – o f r o u t e s o r – o r a n y p r o j e c t w it h in t h e – t h e o r g a n is a t i o n t h a t r e q u ir e m o n e y t o – t o b e s p e n t b u t – a n d – 20 a n d a s I s a i d I m e a n a l s o th e c l o s u r e o f r o u te s . They were also r e s p o n s i b l e f o r h e d g i n g - o u r h e d g i n g p o li c ie s w h ic h is a v e r y i m p o r ta n t p a r t – y o u k n o w - o f t h e a ir li n e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : D id t h e s e c o m m i t t e e s h a v e d e c is io n m a k i n g p o w e r o r o n ly p o w e r to m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s to t h e B o a r d ? Page 37 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A ll o f t h e s u b - c o m m i t te e s w e r e u til is e d t o m a k e r e c o m m e n d – t o m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o t h e B o a r d b u t u l ti m a t e ly i t is th e B o a r d t h a t m a k e s t h e d e c is i o n . The only s u b - c o m m i t t e e w h ic h i s n o r m a l f o r a l l o r g a n is a ti o n s i s th e A u d i t C o m m i t t e e w h e r e t h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o m a tt e r s th a t th e y c a n m a k e o r t a k e a d e c i s i o n a n d th a t p e r t a i n s t o – y o u k n o w – m a y b e t h e appointment of auditors and what the auditors are been paid but every o th e r s u b - c o m m i t t e e w a s t a s k e d t o r e v i e w w h a t e v e r i n f o r m a t io n w a s b r o u g h t t o i ts a t t e n ti o n i n d e t a i l to t h e n b e a b l e t o m a k e t h e c o r r e c t 10 c o m m e n d a ti o n t o th e B o a r d . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you. S o y o u h a v e e x p l a in e d the purpose of the Audit Committee and so to have you dealt with the Fi n a n c e R i s k a n d I n v e s t m e n t C o m m i t t e e . C a n I a s k y o u to d o t h e s a m e for the three remaining sub -committees please? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: O k a y. The Social E t h ic s G o v e r n a n c e a n d M o n i t o r in g C o m m i t t e e w o u l d a c t u a l ly b e a c o m m i t t e e t h a t e n s u r e s th a t t h e o r g a n is a ti o n m a n a g e s i t s w o r k i n a n e t h i c a l m a n n e r a n d n o t o n ly t h a t th a t i t a ls o l o o k s a t o t h e r m a t t e r s w h i c h m a y n o t b e f in a n c ia l b u t a r e i m p o r t a n t t o t h e o r g a n is a t i o n . S u c h a s w h a t a – w h e t h e r w e h a v e th e c o r r e c t p o lic y – 20 p o li c i e s i n p l a c e f o r a k e y s t a k e h o l d e r s u c h a s o u r e m p l o y e e s a n d m a k i n g s u r e th a t th e y a r e s a f e i n t h e w o r k p la c e – t h e y a r e s a f e a n d s e c u r e – I m e a n – in t h e w o r k p l a c e j u s t a s a n e x a m p l e o f s o m e o f t h e w o r k th a t w o u l d b e u n d e r t a k e n in t h e s o c i a l a n d e th ic s a n d g o v e r n a n c e … Page 38 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h a t e x t e n t w o u l d th e r e b e s o m e o v e r la p b e t w e e n t h e w o r k o f th a t c o m m i t t e e a n d th e w o r k o f t h e R e m u n e r a t io n a n d human resources committee? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : W h a t C h a ir – w h a t n o r m a l ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a l ly ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ye s . When you lo o k at r e m u n e r a t io n a n d h u m a n r e s o u r c e s th e ir f u n c t i o n w o u l d b e to l o o k a t h o w w e – w e p a y o u r e m p lo y e e s w i t h i n t h e – t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . T h e ir f u n c t i o n w o u l d b e t o e n s u r e t h a t w e d o h a v e p o l ic ie s t h a t a c tu a lly 10 m a n a g e o u r r e la t io n s h ip s w it h o u r e m p lo y e e s w i t h i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . T h e d i ffe r e n c e b e tw e e n – a n d y e s t h e r e i s b i t o v e r la p in s o m e in s t a n c e s b e t w e e n t h a t s u b - c o m m i t t e e a n d t h a t S o c i a l a n d E t h ic s C o m m i t t e e b u t t h e S o c i a l a n d E t h ic s C o m m i t te e w o u l d b e l o o k i n g a t i t in te r m s o f m a y b e e n s u r i n g t h a t a ll o f t h e s e p o l ic i e s a r e i n p l a c e a n d t h a t t h e o r g a n is a ti o n i s d o in g t h e r i g h t t h i n g s a s it p e r t a i n s t o i ts employees. N o t s o m u c h t h a t w e – th a t w e d o h a v e a p o li c y f o r e x a m p l e w h ic h is a – ta lk s to h o w w e m a n a g e p e o p l e s a y w i th H I V w i t h in t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d y e s t h e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s C o m m i t t e e w o u ld p r o b a b ly 20 h a v e d r i v e n t h e p o li c y b u t t h e S o c ia l a n d E th ic s w o u ld w a n t t o e n s u r e t h a t i t is a li g n e d t o b e s t p r a c t ic e . S o j u s t a s l ig h t ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : S li g h t o v e r la p ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s e x a c t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And then Page 39 of 218 th e Procurement and 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 Te n d e r P r o c e s s C o m m i t t e e . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: So – and th e n C h a ir th e P r o c u r e m e n t a n d Te n d e r C o m m i t te e – P r o c e s s e s C o m m i t t e e - w a s a c t u a ll y f o r m e d i n o r d e r t o r e v i e w a n d r e c o m m e n d o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d a ll o f th e b i g t e n d e r s t h a t w o u l d b e u n d e r t a k e n w it h in t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . CHAIRPERSON : I g u e s s b e tw e e n t h a t c o m m i t t e e – th e w o r k o f t h a t c o m m i t t e e t o a n d th e w o r k o f th e S o c i a l E t h i c s a n d G o v e r n a n c e a n d M o n i t o r in g C o m m i t t e e t h e r e c o u ld b e s o m e – s o m e o v e r la p i n te r ms o f 10 p a r t ic u l a r g o v e r n a n c e a n d t e n d e r s . Is t h a t r i g h t? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t – I m e a n – C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Yo u d o te n d to f in d t h a t t h e S o c i a l a n d E t h i c s C o m m i t t e e i s o n e o f t h o s e t h a t o v e r l a p s a n d o r d i n a r il y o v e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n u m b e r o f th e c o m m i t t e e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: 20 B e c a u s e i t is t o e n s u r e t h a t th e y a r e d o i n g t h in g s c o r r e c t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d l a s tl y th e R e m u n e r a ti o n a n d Human Resources Committee. Page 40 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e – s h e a l r e a d y s a i d b u t I d o n o t k n o w i f s h e w a n ts to add anything Ms Mzimela. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: a lr e a d y i n d ic a te d th a t th e Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir. R e m u n e r a ti o n a nd Human I had Resources C o m m i t t e e w o u l d lo o k in t e r m s o f h o w w e r e m u n e r a t e o u r e m p l o y e e s w i t h i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d t o e n s u r e th a t w e h a v e p o l ic ie s in p l a c e t h a t m a n a g e o u r r e la t io n s h i p s w i t h o u r – w it h th e e m p l o y e e s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you and so once matters are c o n s i d e r e d a t B o a r d s u b - c o m m i t t e e l e v e l it th e n g e ts e s c a l a te d t o th e 10 B o a r d f o r a d e c is io n . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I f w e c a n th e n lo o k to s o m e o f t h e k e y g o v e r n a n c e d o c u m e n ts w it h in S A A a n d w e a r e n o w s t il l o n p a g e 5 o r y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d i n p a r ti c u la r p a r a g r a p h 8 . d o c u m e n ts in p a r t ic u l a r th e f ir s t being Yo u h a v e li s t e d f o u r the Memorandum of I n c o r p o r a ti o n . T h e n e x t is t h e S ig n i f ic a n c e a n d t h e M a t e r i a li ty F r a m e w o r k . T h e t h ir d i s a s h a r e h o ld e r s c o m p a c t a n d l a s tl y a c o r p o r a t e p l a n . C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p l a in t o th e C o m m is s i o n w h a t a r e th e k e y a n d s a li e n t 20 f e a t u r e s a n d i m p o r ta n c e o f – l e t u s s ta r t w i t h – t h e M e m o r a n d u m o f I n c o r p o r a ti o n ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e M e m o r a n d u m o f In c o r p o r a ti o n w o u ld a c tu a l ly d e t a i l t h e c a s e o f S A A w a s a S c h e d u l e 2 A ir li n e . I t is a n a ir li n e t h a t h a s b e e n f o r m e d u n d e r a n A c t – y o u k n o w – o f G o v e r n m e n t a n d i t w il l a l s o ta lk t o h o w t h e D ir e c t o r s a r e a p p o i n t e d to t h e B o a r d a n d Page 41 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 the r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n the share – the shareholder and th e o r g a n i s a t io n i n t e r m s o f th e D ir e c t o r s o f t h e e n ti ty. CHAIRPERSON : I t h i n k s h e w o u ld l ik e y o u t o s a y s o m e th in g o n a l l those four documents. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: O k a y C h a ir a n d th e n i n t e r m s o f t h e S i g n i fic a n c e a n d M a te r i a l i ty – I m e a n – Fr a m e w o r k i n … ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 In f a c t c a n I j u s t i n t e r r u p t y o u f o r a s e c o n d a n d a s k y o u t o g o t o p a g e 3 9 b e f o r e w e c l o s e o ff o n t h e M e m o r a n d u m o f I n c o r p o r a ti o n ? W h a t is t h is d o c u m e n t w h i c h a p p e a r s before you? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t is t h e Ar t ic le s o f A s s o c i a ti o n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r S A A ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: F o r S o u th A f r ic a n A ir w a y s t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i n li n e w it h t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s 20 b e e n g iv e n C h a i r D ir e c t o r s a n d i ts p r o v is io n s r e la t in g t o D ir e c t o r s r e g u la t e d a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 w h ic h i s o n p a g e 6 3 . CHAIRPERSON : W e ll d o y o u n o w w a n t h e r t o fi n is h f ir s t m e n ti o n – s a y in g s o m e t h i n g o n e a c h o n e o f t h e m a n d t h e n if y o u w a n t to g o t o m o r e a s p e c t s o n e a c h o n e t h e n y o u c a n d o th a t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : G u i d e d b y y o u C h a ir. Page 42 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In th a t i n s t a n c e p l e a s e g o b a c k th e n t o e x p la in t h e S i g n i fi c a n c e a n d M a t e r i a l i ty Fr a m e w o r k . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h e S i g n i fic a n c e a n d M a t e r ia li ty Fr a m e w o r k in s i m p l e te r m s I w o u l d d e s c r i b e i t a s a D e l e g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i ty fr o m t h e s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n ta t iv e t o t h e – t h e B o a r d b e c a u s e w h a t i t w o u ld a c t u a ll y c o n t a i n a r e t h o s e m a tt e r s t h a t – m o s t i m p o r t a n tly th e m a t te r s t h a t n e e d t o b e r e f e r r e d t o t h e s h a r e h o ld e r r e p r e s e n t a tiv e w h ic h in th is c a s e w a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c 10 E n t e r p r is e s b u t b e c a u s e o b v io u s ly th is is a s t a te e n t i ty. T h e r e w a s a l s o t h e r e q u ir e m e n t in m o s t in s ta n c e s f o r a c o n c u r r e n c e w i t h th e M i n is te r o f F i n a n c e a s w e l l o n s o m e o f t h o s e d e c is i o n s th a t a r e c o n t a i n e d t h e r e . S o i t w a s q u it e s p e c i fic a b o u t th o s e m a t t e r s th a t n e e d e d to b e e s c a l a te d to t h e s h a r e h o l d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is – i t is a n u n u s u a l t i tl e o r n a m e f o r t h e d o c u m e n t – S ig n i f ic a n c e a n d M a te r i a l it y Fr a m e w o r k a s o p p o s e d t o D e l e g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i ty w h ic h a p p e a r s t o b e q u i t e c o m m o n w i th a l o t o f p a r a s t a t a ls . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e i n s i g n if ic a n c e o n t h e d i ff e r e n t n a m i n g o r n o t 20 r e a l ly ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I w o u l d n o t k n o w. CHAIRPERSON : No that you know of. MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : I mean I would not know Chair … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: B u t t h a t is w h a t i t w a s a c t u a l ly Page 43 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 called. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b u t y o u s a y i t i s f o r a ll i n t e n ts a n d p u r p o s e s i t s e r v e s t h e p u r p o s e o f a D e l e g a ti o n o f A u th o r i ty. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A D e l e g a ti o n o f A u th o r i ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C h a i r – C h a ir I c a n p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t t h e s i g n i fic a n c e a n d m a te r i a l i ty fr a m e w o r k i s in fa c t a c o m p li a n c e r e q u ir e m e n t u n d e r t h e P u b l ic F in a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. 10 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n s p e c i f ic S e c ti o n s 5 4 t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it is – i t is t e r m e d l ik e t h a t? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it is te r m e d li k e t h a t ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I t is n o t f o r s o m e o t h e r s tr a n g e r e a s o n it is b r o k e n u p in t o tw o p a r t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I t is c o m p li a n c e w i th S e c ti o n 5 4 ( 2 ) and 55(2) of the PFMA. CHAIRPERSON : 20 O k a y, a lr ig h t . Th a n k you. Please proceed M s Mz i m e la . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: In te r ms of the shareholder c o m p a c t C h a i r i t w o u l d b e a d o c u m e n t w h e r e t h e s h a r e h o l d e r is c o m m u n ic a ti n g it s s t r a t e g ic i n te n t t o t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d w o u ld a c t u a ll y c o n t a i n p e r f o r m a n c e t a r g e ts t h a t w o u ld b e m o n i t o r e d b e t w e e n t h e s h a r e h o ld e r r e p r e s e n t a t iv e a n d th e o r g a n is a t i o n a n d i s a d o c u m e n t Page 44 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h a t w o u l d n o r m a l ly b e r e v ie w e d o n a n a n n u a l b a s is i n o r d e r to lo o k a t t h o s e t a r g e ts . CHAIRPERSON : Is – ( c l e a r i n g t h r o a t ) – e x c u s e m e – is i t – is i t – ( c l e a r i n g t h r o a t) – e x c u s e m e . I s i t a – a d o c u m e n t / a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n t h e s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n ta t iv e a n d t h e B o a r d o r – o r i t i n c l u d e s m a n a g e m e n t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir b e c a u s e u l ti m a t e ly i t h a s t o b e a p p r o v e d b y t h e B o a r d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A n d t h e n it is s i g n e d o ff b y t h e s h a r e h o l d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o i t is th e r e l a ti o n s h i p th a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s b u t it – ( c le a r in g t h r o a t ) o b v i o u s l y i t p la c e s – i t c o n ta in s t o – t o s a y t h e le a s t e x p e c ta t io n s … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : By the shareholder and maybe the Board of among o th e r th in g s m a n a g e m e n t’s p e r fo r m a n c e w h a t th e y s h o u l d p u r s u e w h a t 20 o b j e c ti v e s w h a t p r io r i ti e s t h e y s h o u l d p u r s u e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Th a t is w h y th e y e v e n d e v e l o p i n g t h e s h a r e h o ld e r s c o m p a c t . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Page 45 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: M a n a g e m e n t w o u ld b e i n v o l v e d i n terms of providing. C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d b e fu ll y i n v o lv e d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: In p r o v id i n g the necessary in f o r m a ti o n t o t h e B o a r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 So is it then understood if I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c t – y o u r e v id e n c e c o r r e c t ly th a t i t i s a l m o s t d r i v e n f r o m t h e b o t t o m u p – i f w e c o u l d u s e t h a t t e r m in o lo g y – i n t h a t t h e p e r f o r m a n c e i n d ic a t o r s fo r t h e c o m p a n y is d e t e r m i n e d a n d d e c i d e d b y m a n a g e m e n t f ir s t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: M a y b e ju s t a c o r r e c t io n t h a t it i s n o t s o m u c h a b o u t – i t is – i t w o u l d – i t w o u l d b e d r iv e n fr o m i n te r n a l i n t e r m s o f th o s e p e r f o r m a n c e i n d i c a t o r s t h a t p e r t a i n s p e c i fi c a ll y t o th e fi n a n c i a l t y p e – I m e a n – i n d i c a t o r s b e c a u s e m a n a g e m e n t w o u ld s a y t h is i s w h a t w e p l a n t o a c t u a l ly d e liv e r b u t it is a p r o p o s a l t h a t g e ts t a b le d a t t h e B o a r d w h ic h t h e n th e B o a r d m u s t in t e r r o g a t e a n d s e e 20 w h e t h e r m a n a g e m e n t is s tr e t c h i n g i ts e lf o r n o t i n t e r m s o f t h e ta r g e ts t h a t t h e y a r e p u t t in g f o r w a r d a n d w h a t d r iv e s s o m e o f w h a t t h e y a r e p r o p o s in g a s p a r t o f t h a t s h a r e h o l d e r c o m p a c t . O n c e t h e B o a r d is a c t u a ll y s a tis f ie d w it h h a v i n g in t e r r o g a t e d – s o t h e B o a r d w o u ld s ti ll h a v e a r i g h t to g o b a c k t o m a n a g e m e n t a n d s a y w e ’r e n o t c o m f o r t a b l e w i th t h e f o l lo w in g w e w o u ld w a n t y o u t o c h a n g e Page 46 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 o n t h e b a s is o f w h a te v e r t h e c a s e m a y b e a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e . L ik e w i s e , o n c e th e B o a r d h a s a c t u a l ly a p p r o v e d t h a t d o c u m e n t a n d i t’s t a k e n t h r o u g h t o t h e s h a r e h o l d e r t h e s h a r e h o l d e r e q u a l ly h a s t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o i n te r r o g a te w h a t is p r e s e n te d t o t h e m a n d c a n e i t h e r a c c e p t o r c o m e b a c k t o t h e B o a r d t o s a y w e ’r e n o t c o m f o r ta b le w it h t h e p e r f o r m a n c e in d i c a t o r s t h a t y o u h a v e s t ip u la t e d . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u f o r th a t c l a r i ty. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: O n D w h ic h is t h e c o r p o r a te p la n , t h is i s t h e th r e e - y e a r p la n t h a t s e e k s to a c t u a ll y p r o j e c t f u r t h e r t h a n 10 ju s t t h e o n e y e a r i n t e r m s o f i m p le m e n t in g o r ta lk in g t o h o w a s t r a t e g y w h ic h h a s b e e n a p p r o v e d w o u ld b e i m p l e m e n te d o v e r t h e y e a r s . S o i t w o u ld a c t u a ll y c o n t a i n , i n th e c a s e o f a n a ir l in e , o u r f o c u s a r e a s f r o m a r o u t e p e r s p e c t iv e , w h a t a r e t h e r o u te s t h a t t h e a ir li n e w o u ld w a n t t o f o c u s o n a n d t h e r e a s o n s b e h in d t h a t, i t w o u ld a ls o c o n t a i n w h a t is – w h a t w o u l d b e r e q u ir e d b y t h e o r g a n i s a t io n in o r d e r to d e liv e r o n w h a t w o u ld b e s ti p u l a te d i n th e c o r p o r a t e p l a n a n d th e r e , w h a t I ’ m t a l k i n g a b o u t, is e i t h e r i t’s f in a n c ia l s u p p o r t o r t h e r e q u ir e m e n t t o m a k e c h a n g e s t o i t e ms s u c h a s t h e f le e t , w h ic h is th e a ir c r a f t t h a t w e u ti li s e a s a ir li n e s to g e n e r a te r e v e n u e b u t it ’s a f o r w a r d lo o k in g p l a n , a th r e e - 20 y e a r p l a n t h a t t a lk s t o w h a t n e e d s to b e d o n e in t o t h e fu t u r e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I s i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h e c o r p o r a t e p l a n is a ls o a l e g is la t iv e r e q u ir e m e n t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s i t is C h a ir, w e a r e r e q u ir e d t o s u b m i t th a t t o t h e s h a r e h o ld e r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : C h a ir, i n f a c t , j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d i t ’s Page 47 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 r e g u la t e d b y S e c t io n 5 2 o f t h e P F M A i n p a r ti c u l a r to r e g a r d to s c h e d u l e 2 e n t i ti e s f o r w h ic h S A A is . M s M z i m e l a , i t ’s c o r r e c t th a t S A A a l s o n e e d s to p r e p a r e a n n u a l r e p o r ts . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. W h a t i s t h e p r o c e s s in r e l a ti o n t o t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f a n n u a l r e p o r ts a n d it s s u b m i s s i o n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : in t e r n a ll y w it h in the o r g a n is a ti o n , S o t h e r e p o r ts w o u l d b e p r e p a r e d we do have – w h ic h is a r e s p o n s i b i li ty – fi n a n c e d e p a r t m e n t w it h t h e C F O d r iv i n g t h e p r o c e s s o n 10 a d a y - t o - d a y b a s i s in th e p r e p a r a t io n o f t h o s e A n n u a l F in a n c ia l S t a te m e n t s . O n c e t h e y h a v e b e e n – a n d t h e y w o r k v e r y c l o s e l y w i th in t e r n a l a u d i t, th e r e a s o n w h y w e h a v e i n te r n a l a u d i t is th e y n e e d to w o r k v e r y c l o s e ly a s w e ll w it h t h e f i n a n c e d e p a r t m e n t i n th e p r e p a r a ti o n o f t h o s e A n n u a l Fi n a n c i a l S t a t e m e n ts to e n s u r e t h a t th e y a c tu a l ly m e e t o r th e y ’r e c o m p l i a n t i n t h e ir n a t u r e . O n c e t h e fi n a n c i a ls h a v e a c tu a l ly b e e n c o n c lu d e d , t h e y a r e t h e n ta b le s , s o o b v i o u s ly I’ m s p e a k i n g s p e c i f ic a l ly a b o u t th e C F O b u t I’ m t a l k in g a b o u t t h e t e a m o v e r a ll b e c a u s e o n c e t h e C F O w h o r e p o r ts t h is C O h a s f i n a li s e d t h o s e s t a te m e n ts t h e n t h e C E O w i ll t h e n p r e s e n t t h o s e s t a t e m e n t s t o th e 20 B o a r d …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : I’ m s o r r y M s M z i m e l a p r o b a b ly b o t h y o u a n d M s S e p te m b e r r e a li s e th a t I s e e m li k e I w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g , w h y d o w e n e e d a ll o f t h a t? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : C h a i r i t’s r e a lly j u s t to s e t t h e la n d s c a p e fo r th e r e g u l a to r y fr a m e w o r k w i t h i n w h ic h S A A o p e r a te s a n d Page 48 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 to the extent of governance matters that are then addressed at a later stage…(intervention). CHAIRPERSON : W e ll I r e a d M s M z i m e la ’s s ta t e m e n t, I d o n ’ t r e c a ll a n y th in g t h a t r e a ll y w o u l d m a k e th a t n e c e s s a r y, is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g I ’v e m is s e d , h o w a n a n n u a l r e p o r t i s p r o c e s s e d . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : I t’s r e a ll y m o r e s o t h e r e p o r t i n g s tr u c t u r e t h a t I w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t , w h i c h I t h o u g h t m a y b e r e l e v a n t for purposes of the evidence, having said that w e ’ ll move o n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . 10 CHAIRPERSON : I w a n t u s t o g e t t o M r M z i m e la ’s r e a l i m p o r t a n t evidence as soon as possible. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s . CHAIRPERSON : S o m e o f t h e t h i n g s w e r e i m p o r ta n t t o m e n t io n b u t ju s t r e c o n s id e r s o m e o f th e t h i n g s , I t h i n k i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t s o m e that you have touched on were important but I’m not sure about the n e e d f o r t h e d e ta ils a b o u t h o w a n a n n u a l r e p o r t g e t s p r o c e s s e d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir, th e r e ’s j u s t tw o q u ic k q u e s ti o n s t h e n o n t h is a s p e c t . CHAIRPERSON : 20 O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : T h e fi r s t is w e r e t h e r e d e l e g a t io n s o f a u t h o r i ty i n p l a c e a n d d id y o u i m p le m e n t a n y d e l e g a ti o n s o f a u t h o r i t y w h e n y o u t o o k o ff ic e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s C h a ir t h e r e w e r e d e le g a ti o n s o f a u t h o r it y, t h e r e w a s a d e le g a ti o n fr o m t h e B o a r d t o m y s e l f a n d p o s t t h a t fi n a li s a t io n o f t h a t d e le g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty, I t h e n e q u a l ly, I g a v e Page 49 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 d e l e g a ti o n s to t h e n e x t l e v e l w i t h i n m y t e a m . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n t h e l a s t q u e s ti o n o n t h is p o i n t, is h o w d id y o u c o m m u n i c a t e a n y f in a n c ia l a n d o p e r a t io n a l u p d a te s t o th e s h a r e h o l d e r ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I n t h e c a s e o f S A A a t th e ti m e , fir s tly, o b v i o u s l y t h e r e a r e p e r i o d s w h e r e w e n e e d to a c t u a ll y p r o v i d e a n u p d a t e o n n o t j u s t o n ly th e fi n a n c i a l p e r f o r m a n c e b u t th e o v e r a l l p e r f o r m a n c e o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n in t e r m s o f q u a r t e r ly r e p o r ts t h a t g e t p r o v i d e d t o t h e s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n t a tiv e , s o th a t w a s t h e o n e b u t in 10 a d d it i o n t o t h a t , b e c a u s e i t s o h a p p e n e d t h a t i t w a s th e c o n d i ti o n s o f t h e g u a r a n te e t h a t h a d b e e n p r o v i d e d t o S A A t h e r e w e r e a l s o m o n t h ly m o n i t o r in g – m o n i to r i n g meetings h e ld b e tw e e n th e shareholder r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s b e i n g N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e D P E w i t h t h e te a m w i t h i n S A A t o p r o v i d e t h o s e r e g u l a r u p d a te s o f p e r f o r m a n c e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : s h a r e h o l d e r ’s r e p r e s e n t a tiv e A n d s o th e n o n a m o n t h l y b a s is t h e would be well versed with w h a t is h a p p e n in g a t a n o p e r a ti o n a l le v e l a n d a t a f in a n c ia l le v e l b o r n e o u t o f a g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e s th a t w e r e g iv e n to S A A i s t h a t r i g h t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 S o ju s t fo r c la r i ty, w e ’v e b e e n u s i n g t h e t e r m , s h a r e h o ld e r r e p r e s e n t a t iv e a n d i n m y v i e w I ’ m t a lk in g a b o u t m o r e t h e M i n is t e r i n t h a t c a s e . Fo r t h e m o n t h ly m o n i t o r in g m e e ti n g s it w o u l d b e r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s o f t h e M i n is tr y, s o t h a t w o u l d b e p r e s e n t a t t h o s e m e e ti n g , s o t h e y h a v e w h a t t h e y c a ll , t h e a v ia t io n t e a m s o r p e o p l e w h o a r e a l l o c a t e d to t h e a v i a ti o n s tr e a m to s p e c i fi c a lly m a n a g e th o s e ty p e o f m a t t e r s a n d m y a s s u m p t io n w o u l d t h e n b e t h a t Page 50 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h e y ’r e d o i n g i t in o r d e r t o fe e d b a c k t h e m s e lv e s t h r o u g h th e ir o w n s y s te m . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n y o u , Ms M z i m e l a w h e n M i n i s t e r – t h e th e n M in is t e r G i g a b a t o o k o ff ic e d id h e t a k e a n y is s u e w i t h a n y o f t h e r e g u l a t o r y d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u ’v e e x p la in e d a n d e x p la i n e d to t h i s Commission about? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : A s I r e c a ll h e d i d h a v e s o m e c o n c e r n s r e l a ti n g t o th e M O I a n d h i s c o n c e r n s … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : 10 A d t h e M O I , f o r t h e r e c o r d is t h e M e m o r a n d u m o f I n c o r p o r a ti o n . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s t h e M O I b e c a u s e I b e li e v e t h a t h e w a n t e d i t t o b e a l o t m o r e s p e c i f ic i n te r ms o f h o w t h e C E O w o u ld b e a p p o i n te d a n d i n th e c a s e o f S A A it w a s c l e a r th a t t h e B o a r d t h a t w o u l d a c tu a l ly m a k e th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f th e C E O w i th – n o t t h e c o n c u r r e n c e b u t t h e y w o u l d o b v io u s ly p u t f o r w a r d th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o t h e M i n is tr y t o c o n fi r m t h e ir c o m f o r t i n t e r m s o f t h a t a p p o i n t m e n t w i t h t h e C E O b u t – a n d I d o n ’t r e a ll y h a v e , I m e a n , th e a c t u a l s p e c i f ic s in t e r m s o f th e c la u s e s t h a t h e h a d c o n c e r n s a b o u t b u t h is g e n e r a l c o n c e r n w a s t h a t h e f e l t t h a t t h e S A A o n e d i d n o t g i v e e n o u g h p o w e r to 20 t h e M i n i s t r y i n te r m s o f t h e ir in v o lv e m e n t o n th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f th e CEO. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t s ta g e , t h e a c tu a l d e c i s i o n f o r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e C E O f o r S A A w a s – d i d i t v e s t i n th e B o a r d ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : CHAIRPERSON : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A n d th e B o a r d m ig h t c o n s u l t t h e M i n is t e r o r h a v e Page 51 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 s o m e d is c u s s i o n w i t h h i m b u t t h e f in a l d e c is i o n w o u l d v e s t w it h th e Board? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I n d e e d C h a ir, t h e B o a r d w o u l d b e t h e o n e t h a t m a k e s t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o s a y, w e f o l lo w e d o u r p r o c e s s , th is i s o u r r e c o m m e n d e d c a n d i d a t e w h i c h t h e n th e y w o u ld p u t f o r w a r d t o t h e M i n is t e r b e c a u s e a s y o u w o u ld k n o w C h a ir, th a t it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t a l s o n e e d s to g o a l l t h e w a y to c a b i n e t f o r a p p r o v a l a s w e ll . CHAIRPERSON : 10 Ye s b u t w h a t I’ m tr y i n g t o e s t a b lis h is , b e c a u s e i t d e p e n d s w h a t i t g o e s t o c a b i n e t f o r, y o u k n o w, i t c o u ld g o th e r e fo r p u r p o s e s o f i n f o r m a ti o n , i t c o u l d g o t h e r e f o r p u r p o s e s o f th e ir v i e w s o n t h e s u i ta b il it y o f th e c a n d i d a t e , it c o u ld g o th e r e f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n , it ’s i m p o r t a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h o a c t u a l ly m a k e s t h e d e c is i o n , is it t h e c a b i n e t d u r i n g th a t ti m e in r e g a r d t o S A A a s f a r a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d , y o u m i g h t n o t k n o w t h e d e t a il s b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d n ’ t h a v e a p p o i n te d yourself as CEO but you – was it the Board who would make the d e c is i o n b u t b e f o r e th e y m a d e t h e d e c is io n t h e r e w a s a p r o c e s s w h i c h in c l u d e d t h e n a m e th a t t h e y w e r e t h i n k in g o f – t h e p e r s o n t h a t t h e y w e r e t h i n k in g o f a p p o i n t i n g g o i n g t o t h e M in is te r b e f o r e t h e y a n n o u n c e 20 a n d m a y b e u l t i m a te ly t h e B o a r d t o c a b i n e t b u t in t h e e n d it w a s t h e ir d e c is i o n o r w a s i t t h e M in is t e r w h o w o u ld m a k e t h e d e c is io n a f t e r t h e n a m e h a d b e e n p r e s e n t e d t o c a b in e t a n d t h e B o a r d ’s r o le w a s s i m p ly t o m a k e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o n o C h a ir, in – d u r in g m y t e n u r e a n y w a y, t h e d e c i s i o n w a s a c t u a lly m a d e b y t h e B o a r d o n t h is is Page 52 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h e ir c a n d id a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e r e w a s s o m e p r o c e s s … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : But there was a process. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m ig h t n o t b e s u r e n o w e x a c t ly h o w t h a t p r o c e s s w o u ld g o . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : CHAIRPERSON : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. O k a y a n d y o u s a y M i n is te r G ig a b a w a s c o n c e r n e d about the process or the power to appoint the CEO. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 10 T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: A n d n o w h o w w o u l d y o u d e s c r ib e y o u r e x p e r i e n c e o f g o v e r n a n c e u n d e r M i n is t e r B a r b a r a H o g a n a s c o m p a r e d t o M in is t e r M a l u s i G i g a b a ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I t h i n k t h a t i f I’ m g o in g to d o a c o m p a r is o n o f b o t h M i n i s te r ’s u n d e r B a r b a r a H o g a n I w o u ld s a y t h a t g o v e r n a n c e w a s v e r y w e ll m a n a g e d a n d t h a t th e M i n is t e r e n s u r e d t h a t h e r e c o m m u n ic a ti o n w a s w it h t h e B o a r d o r t h e C h a ir o f t h e B o a r d w h o r e p r e s e n t e d – th e B o a r d a s a w h o l e a n d a t t h e C E O ’s c o u n te r p a r t w a s t h e D G , t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l w i t h i n t h e p u b lic e n t e r p r is e s a n d t h a t – 20 w h a t I fo u n d i f I l o o k a t d i ff e r e n c e s is t h a t M s B a r b a r a H o g a n o r t h e in d i v i d u a ls u n d e r t h e M i n i s t r y d u r i n g M s B a r b a r a H o g a n w o u l d e n s u r e t h a t a n y c o m m u n ic a t i o n w i t h t h e o r g a n is a ti o n w a s f o r m a l w r i t t e n c o m m u n ic a ti o n i n a l l i n s t a n c e s . S o I w o u l d s a y t h a t w a s a c t u a lly m a n a g e d q u i t e w e ll . W e a ls o k n e w o f w h o t h e i n d iv id u a ls w e r e w h o ’ d in t e r a c t w i t h th e o r g a n is a ti o n s o i t w a s v e r y c l e a r, a s I i n d ic a te d t h a t Page 53 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h e D G w o u l d c o n t a c t t h e C E O i f t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g t h a t h e o r s h e a c t u a ll y n e e d e d to e s t a b l is h fr o m t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d lik e w i s e i n t e r m s o f t h o s e m o n th ly m o n it o r in g m e e ti n g s , w e k n e w w h o o u r t e a m w a s o n o u r s i d e t h a t w o u ld b e m e e ti n g w it h s o m e o f t h o s e s h a r e h o ld e r r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s o n a m o n t h l y b a s is . S o th e r e w a s v e r y c l e a r l e v e ls o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d tr a n s p a r e n c y in t h a t r e g a r d b u t n o t e v e r y b o d y c o u l d ju s t c o m e in t o t h e o r g a n i s a t io n a n d r e q u e s t in f o r m a t io n a n d fo r m e t h a t w a s th e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e o n e M i n is te r a n d t h e o t h e r M in is t e r b e c a u s e u n d e r M i n is t e r G ig a b a w h a t w e t h e n s o u n d ly f o u n d is t h a t w e 10 h a d lo t s o f p e o p le fr o m t h e M i n is tr y, w h o i n th e p a s t h a d n e v e r h a d a n y – l e t m e n o t s a y r i g h t b u t h a d n e v e r a c t u a l ly c o m e i n t o th e o r g a n i s a t io n o r u n d e r s t o o d th e y n e e d e d t o c o m e w i t h i n o u r o r g a n is a t i o n t o r e q u e s t in f o r m a ti o n . S o th i n g s w e r e b e g i n n i n g t o f a l l t h r o u g h th e c r a c k s , i n t e r m s o f t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f i n f o r m a ti o n , t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f r e q u e s ts t h a t w e r e c o m i n g th r o u g h fr o m e x e c u t iv e s – n o t e x e c u t iv e s b u t m e m b e r s o f t h e M i n is tr y, w h o , i n t h e p a s t r e a ll y h a d n o r e la t io n s h ip w i t h t h e o r g a n is a ti o n w h ic h is , f o r m e , w a s a b r e a k d o w n i n g o o d governance. CHAIRPERSON : 20 I th i n k i t ’s t i m e to t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , M r K a tz y o u lo o k l ik e y o u w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g t o m e , d o y o u w a n t t o c o m e forward. M R K AT Z : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, C h a ir p e r s o n I’ v e c o n s i d e r e d th e p o s it i o n a n d I w is h t o m a k e t h r e e p o in t s a n d t h e n C h a ir p e r s o n y o u c o u l d p e r h a p s j u s t c o n s i d e r th e m o v e r t h e t e a b r e a k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 54 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M R K AT Z : T h e fi r s t p o i n t is th a t m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d s u g g e s t e d t h a t th e s t a te m e n t o f C o e t z e e d a t e d D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 8 is i d e n t ic a l t o h e r a ff i d a v i t dated today and I conferred with one of the document persons of the C o m m i s s i o n , M r D e B e e r w h o i n d i c a t e d – I a s k e d h i m , w a s i t i d e n t ic a l a n d h e s a i d t h e y w e r e t w in s b u t n o t i d e n t ic a l , w h ic h I t h o u g h t w a s a n a p t w a y o f l o o k i n g a t i t a n d I s a i d to h i m , p e r h a p s h e d i d m y j o b fo r m e b u t h e e x p la in e d w h a t t h e d i ffe r e n c e w a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R K AT Z : 10 A t f ir s t b lu s h , w h e n I s a i d t o y o u t h i s m o r n i n g t h a t I w a s t a k e n b y s u r p r i s e w a s t h a t t h e n u m b e r i n g i s d i ff e r e n t a n d th e r e a s o n is , t h e r e ’s a b r e a k in t h e n u m b e r i n g b u t i m p o r ta n tl y t h e r e ’s o n e s e n t e n c e w h ic h is a d d e d t o p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o f Ms M z i m e l a ’s a ff id a v i t w h ic h is i n t h e a ffi d a v i t b u t n o t i n th e s t a te m e n t . I t d o e s n ’ t i m p lic a t e m y c li e n t s o it ’s n o t ( in d i s ti n c t) b u t i t ’s a n i m p o r t a n t s e n te n c e a n d s h e w il l d e a l w i t h it , i t ’s n o th i n g to d o w i t h m y c l ie n t , b u t w h a t is i m p o r ta n t is th is , i n t h e r u l e 3 3 – th a t’s t h e fir s t p o i n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R K AT Z : Th e s e c o n d p o i n t t h a t I w is h t o m a k e is , i n th e r u l e 3 3 s t a te m e n t d a te d 1 2 J u n e 2 0 1 9 s e n t t o m y c li e n t , i m p o r t a n tly i n 20 p a r a g r a p h s 2 a n d 3 o r i n p a r a g r a p h 2 , it i s s u g g e s t e d th a t t h e r e l e v a n t p a r a g r a p h s o f M s M z i m e l a ’s a ff id a v i t w h i c h i m p l ic a te m y c l i e n t a r e in paragraphs 91 to 102 and when one has regard to paragraphs 91 to 102 t h e r e ’s n o r e f e r e n c e to C o e tz e e ’s a ff id a v i t . M s C o e tz e e ’s a ff id a v i t is o n ly r e f e r e n c e d i n p a r a g r a p h s 4 4 a n d 4 5 o f th is w i t n e s s ’s a ffi d a v i t . S o fr o m a fa ir n e s s p o in t o f v i e w, o n e w o u l d e x p e c t a r u l e 3 3 n o tic e t o Page 55 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 id e n t i fy t h a t w h ic h is th e p o s s ib le d i ffic u lt y a n d i t d i d n ’ t h a p p e n o n t h e 12th of June. W h a t d i d h a p p e n o n t h e 2 6 t h o f J u n e , t o d a y, t h e r e i s a n e w r u l e 3 3 n o t ic e w h i c h p o in t s t o C o e t z e e ’s a ffi d a v it a n d i n d ic a te s p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h s a n d p a r t ic u l a r p r o b l e m s w i t h w h a t is s a i d in t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s , p o t e n t ia ll y f o r m y c l ie n t , t h a t ’s p a r a g r a p h s - I’ m a c t u a ll y not sure, I’m not sure what the paragraph numbers are but not i m p o r t a n t fo r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s . S o t h e s u b m is s io n t h a t I w i s h t o m a k e a s a f in a l c o n c lu d i n g p o in t i s t h i s , w e r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o a d m i t C o e tz e e ’s a ff i d a v i t a s e v id e n c e b e f o r e th e C o m m i s s io n w e w o u l d a s k 10 f o r a n o p p o r tu n i ty t o f il e a n a ffi d a v i t . O n t h e o t h e r h a n d , w e r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o , fo r e x a m p l e o r d e r C o e tz e e to g i v e e v i d e n c e , w e w o u l d a s k to c o n s i d e r a n o p p o r tu n it y t o c o n s id e r w h e t h e r w e ’ d a s k f o r a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e a n d t h e r e a r e t h r e e s p e c i f ic a s p e c ts o f h e r a ffi d a v i t w h ic h w e w o u l d t h i n k a r e s o m e t h i n g t h a t m y c l ie n t w o u l d w a n t t o c r o s s - e x a m in e C o e tz e e a b o u t . I’ m n o t s u r e t h a t i t ’s S t a t e C a p t u r i n g , e a r th s h a t te r i n g e v id e n c e a g a i n s t m y c l ie n t , b u t a t th e s a m e ti m e t h e r e a r e t h i n g s s a i d a b o u t m y c li e n t , w h ic h r e q u ir e s o m e c o n s i d e r a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : 20 W h a t d o y o u t h i n k o f u s p r o c e e d i n g – I m e a n fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d , to m e , i t d o e s a p p e a r t h a t w h a t e v e r i t i s t h a t m a y b e i n M s C o e tz e e ’s a ff i d a v i t , w h ic h w a s n o t i n h e r s t a te m e n t t h a t w a s s e n t e a r l i e r o n … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) . M R K AT Z : D o e s n ’ t a ff e c t m y c l ie n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s n ’ t – i t ’s n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t m a t t e r s s o it s e e m s t o m e t h a t i n t h a t e v e n t m a y b e i t w o u l d b e a f a ir s tr i k i n g o f t h e b a l a n c e Page 56 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 if w e w e r e to p r o c e e d o n th e u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t s h o u l d y o u w is h t o b r i n g - y o u r c li e n t w is h to b r i n g a n a p p li c a ti o n t o c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n M s C o e tz e e , t h a t w o u l d b e c o n s id e r e d a t t h e t i m e a n d a s I s a y I h a v e n ’t r e a d it b u t i f – w h a t y o u c o u l d d o i f I – i f y o u , in t h e m e a n ti m e b e fo r e y o u k n o w w h e t h e r M s C o e tz e e w i ll b e c a l l e d o r n o t , i f y o u i n t h e m e a n t i m e , o r y o u r c l i e n t , p r e p a r e s a s t a t e m e n t o r a ffi d a v it r e s p o n d i n g t o w h a t e v e r h e m a y w i s h to r e s p o n d t h a t w o u ld h e lp i n s a y i n g , i s t h e r e a d is p u t e , i t ’s a s e r i o u s d is p u te a n d t h e n w h e t h e r o r n o t M s C o e tz e e g e t s c a ll e d i t m ig h t , a m o n g o t h e r th in g s , d e p e n d o n t h a t . 10 M R K AT Z : T h a t w o u l d , i n o u r s u b m is s io n s tr ik e t h e b a l a n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R K AT Z : I w o u l d w a n t s o m e t i m e t o p r e p a r e th e a ffi d a v i t o f m y c li e n t d e a li n g w i th C o e tz e e ’s a ff i d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R K AT Z : I t w o u l d b e a s h o r t a ffi d a v i t b y m y c li e n t … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t ’s fi n e . M R K AT Z : B u t i t w o u l d s ti ll n e e d t o t a k e o n t h r e e s m a ll f a c ts w h ic h – a n d o f c o u r s e t h is w i t n e s s p l a y s n o r o l e i n r e s p e c t o f m y c l i e n t . CHAIRPERSON : 20 Ye s w e l l th e – Ms C o e t z e e ’s a ff id a v i t y o u r c l ie n t i s o n ly g e t t in g to d a y, f r o m w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . M R K AT Z : A l th o u g h w e ’v e h a d i t a s a s t a te m e n t . CHAIRPERSON : T h e y g o t t h e s t a t e m e n t b u t in t e r m s o f t h e a ffi d a v i t t h e y w il l g e t i t m a y b e t o d a y …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . M R K AT Z : Th e r e a r e t w o t h in g s , t h e o n e i s w e r e c e i v e it a s a n a ffi d a v i t to d a y b u t a ls o i m p o r t a n t ly, t h e r u le 3 3 n o t ic e o f to d a y Page 57 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 id e n t i fi e s t h e p a r ts o f C o e tz e e ’ s a ffi d a v i t w h ic h it is s u g g e s t e d i m p l ic a t e s o u r c li e n t a n d I w a n t t o fo c u s o n t h o s e a s p e c ts w h ic h w e h a v e n ’t h a d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o d o . M R K AT Z : N o , n o t h a t ’s fi n e , I th i n k y o u – in te r m s o f t h e r u l e s y o u w o u ld h a v e s o m e t h i n g li k e 1 4 d a y s t o fi le s o m e t h i n g i f y o u w a n t to a n d that should be enough time. M R K AT Z : M a y I s u g g e s t , t o d a y i s , I th i n k , W e d n e s d a y t h e 2 6 t h i f y o u i m p o s e d u p o n u s a d e a d li n e o f s a y n e x t Fr id a y w h ic h is t h e 5 t h o f … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w i ll g i v e y o u , n o t m o r e t h a n 1 4 d a y s is n ’ t i t ? M R K AT Z : I t ’s l e s s t h a n 1 4 d a y s . CHAIRPERSON : M R K AT Z : Ja. I’ m g o in g o n h o li d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s f in e , le t ’s s a y y o u u n d e r t a k e t o fi le a n a ffi d a v i t b y Fr id a y o f n e x t w e e k . M R K AT Z : F r i d a y o f n e x t w e e k w h ic h w e ’ll b e d e a li n g w i th , e ff e c ti v e ly w h a t ’s c o n t a in e d i n t o d a y ’s r u l e 3 3 n o t ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t ’s fi n e , t h a t ’s f in e . M R K AT Z : 20 Thank you. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . M s S e p t e m b e r I’ m s u r e y o u h a v e n o p r o b le m w i t h t h a t ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ’ ll t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w a n d w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t t w e n ty t o tw e l v e , w e a d j o u r n . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S Page 58 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON : Okay let us proceed. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Th a n k y o u . M s M z i m e la b e fo r e t h e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t y o u w e r e d e s c r ib i n g y o u r e x p e r ie n c e s u n d e r t h e – o f g o v e r n a n c e u n d e r Mi n is te r H o g a n a s c o m p a r e d to M in is t e r G i g i b a . J u s t t w o p a r ti c u l a r p o i n t s o n t h a t . H o w w o u l d y o u e x p l a in o r d e s c r i b e th e m a n n e r a n d s ty le o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n S A A a n d t h e M i n is tr i e s u n d e r e a c h o f t h o s e M in is t e r s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k s h e d i d d e a l w i t h t h a t . S h e d id s a y th a t u n d e r 10 M i n is t e r B a r b a r a H o g a n c o m m u n ic a t i o n w a s f o r m a l . T h e m in is tr y w o u l d s e n d fo r m a l c o m m u n ic a t i o n a n d t h e y k n e w w h o t o d e a l w it h a t t h e m i n is tr y i n t e r m s o f r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s a n d u n d e r M i n i s te r G i g i b a th a t w a s n o t t h e c a s e a n d I a m p u t ti n g i t i n m y o w n w o r d s e v e r y b o d y a n d a n y b o d y c o u ld j u s t c o m e t o S A A t h a t t h e y d i d n o t k n o w t o b e p a r t o f a t e a m t h a t th e y w e r e d e a li n g w i th . M s M z i m e l a h a v e I p u t w o r d s i n to m o u th ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : N o C h a ir I t h i n k y o u h a v e a c tu a l ly summarised it very well. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n j u s t o n c l a r i ti e s o f p r o t o c o ls o f e n g a g e m e n t w h o w a s th e c o u n t e r p a r t o f th e M i n is t e r w i t h i n S A A ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t w a s th e C h a ir p e r s o n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : W h o w a s th e c o u n t e r p a r t o f th e D G Page 59 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 in S A A ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t w o u ld b e … C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e s a id t h a t a s w e ll . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : The CEO. CHAIRPERSON : S h e s a y s t h e C E O w o u ld d e a l w i th t h e D G a n d th e M i n is t e r w o u ld d e a l w i th t h e c h a i r p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir i t w a s c e r t a in ly m y r e c o l l e c ti o n t h a t th e r e w a s n o t a b s o l u te l y c l a r it y o n t h e p r o t o c o ls o f e n g a g e m e n ts b u t I a m i n d e b t e d t o y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M s M z i m e la i t i s u n d e r s t o o d th a t S A A is a n e t w o r k c a r r i e r a s c o m p a r e d to a l o c a l c a r r ie r, i s t h a t r i g h t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s C h a ir s o j u s t I m e a n t o c l a r i fy d i ff e r e n c e I m e a n i t is . . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Please. CHAIRPERSON : I t is a n e t w o r k c a r r i e r a s a p o in t t o a l o c a l p o i n t t o p o i n t c a r r i e r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d w h a t e x – c a n y o u e la b o r a t e a b i t m o r e o n th e d i f f e r e n c e s i n o p e r a t io n b e t w e e n a n e tw o r k c a r r i e r a s 20 c o m p a r e d t o a lo c a l c a r r ie r ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o a p o in t to p o i n t c a r r i e r a n d a ty p i c a l e x a m p l e w o u ld b e s o m e o f th e lo w c o s t c a r r i e r s t h a t w e h a v e i n S o u th A fr ic a where you are a c tu a lly o p e r a ti n g r o u te s b e tw e e n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d C a p e To w n o r J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d D u r b a n a n d t h e p a s s e n g e r s t h a t a r e s i t ti n g o n y o u r a i r c r a f t a c t u a l ly o r i g i n a te fr o m Page 60 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h o s e d e s ti n a t io n s b e i n g J o h a n n e s b u r g o r C a p e To w n , P o r t E li z a b e th o r w h a t e v e r t h e p o i n t o f e n tr y w o u l d b e . W h e n y o u a r e a n e t w o r k c a r r i e r e v e n t h e w a y i n w h i c h y o u r e v i e w t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f th e r o u t e w h a t y o u w o u l d l o o k a t is n o t ju s t t h e p o i n t to p o i n t b u t h o w m u c h th a t r o u t e is c o n tr i b u ti n g i n t e r m s o f c o n n e c ti n g tr a ff ic a s w e l l . S o in th e c a s e o f SAA there are certain Johannesburg/London routes route which as and an I would example use the where on J o h a n n e s b u r g / L o n d o n t h e p e o p l e o r ig i n a t e I m e a n fr o m L o n d o n t h e y c o m e , th e y la n d i n J o h a n n e s b u r g b u t th e r e a s o n w h y p o s s ib ly t h e y 10 c h o o s i n g S A A e v e n a s a c a r r i e r is b e c a u s e S A A c a n c o n n e c t t h e m i m m e d i a t e ly t o th e u l ti m a t e d e s ti n a t i o n w h ic h c o u ld b e i n Zi m b a b w e o r a n y w h e r e e ls e . S o w h e n y o u a r e n e t w o r k c a r r i e r y o u a r e a lw a y s t r y i n g t o p u t t o g e t h e r a s y s t e m th a t a ll o w s t h a t f l e x i b il it y f o r p a s s e n g e r s t o c o n n e c t a s q u ic k ly a s p o s s i b le o u t o f a n y o f th e h u b s t h a t y o u h a v e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : O n e r o u te t h a t y o u p a r t ic u l a r ly d e a l w i t h i n y o u r a ffi d a v it is c a l l e d t h e M u m b a i r o u t e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Can you please give a brief d e s c r ip t io n o f w h a t t h is M u m b a i r o u t e e n t a il e d ? 20 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o M u m b a i w a s a d e s t i n a t io n w h ic h I o p e r a t e – S A A o p e r a t e d o n a n d a t t h e t i m e w h e n I s ta r te d – w h e n I s t a r te d I m e a n a t S A A S A A o p e r a t e d b e t w e e n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d M u m b a i a n d t h e y w e r e t h e o n ly o p e r a t o r o n th e r o u t e o r r a th e r o n l y d ir e c t o p e r a t o r o n th e r o u t e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o y o u f ir s t b e c a m e a w a r e o f i t w h e n Page 61 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 y o u t o o k o ffic e i n 2 0 1 0 ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o w h e n I t o o k o ffic e i n 2 0 1 0 w h a t I b e c a m e a w a r e o f in r e la t io n to t h e M u m b a i r o u t e a r e t h e is s u e s th a t t h e b o a r d h a d c o n c e r n o v e r. B e c a u s e o b v – I h a d b e e n a t S A A I h a v e b e e n a n e x e c u ti v e , Vic e P r e s i d e n t o f G l o b a l S a l e s s o I w a s a ls o q u i t e f a m ili a r w i t h a l l o f t h e r o u te s b e c a u s e a t s o m e p o in t I m a n a g e d a l l o f t h o s e r o u t e I m e a n a s w e l l u n d e r t h e G l o b a l S a le s P o r t f o l io . But in c o m i n g b a c k t o S A A i n 2 0 1 0 w h a t w a s b r o u g h t to m y a t t e n t i o n w a s fr o m t h e b o a r d w a s t h e l e v e l o f d i s c o m f o r t p e r t a i n i n g to a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n 10 t h a t h a d b e e n p u t i n f r o n t o f t h e m t o c lo s e t h e M u m b a i r o u t e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: And who – which board member a p p r o a c h e d y o u to h a v e d is c u s s i o n s in f o r m i n g y o u a b o u t t h e c o n c e r n s on the Mumbai route? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I n m y te s t i m o n y I r e fe r t o a M r Te d d y D a k a b u t I r e fe r t o h i m i n t h e c o n t e x t o f h i m r e m i n d i n g m e o r s h a r i n g w i t h m e w h a t h a d a c t u a ll y tr a n s p ir e d p r i o r t o m y a r r iv a l a t S A A and why there was discomfort, there was such a high level of d is c o m f o r t i n r e l a ti o n t o th a t p r o p o s a l . B u t i n my c a p a c it y a s th e C E O o f S A A t h e m a t t e r w a s r a i s e d b y th e b o a r d w i t h m e to s a y p le a s e c o u l d 20 y o u l o o k a t r e v ie w i n g t h is r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d c o m e b a c k w it h t h e p o s i ti o n – y o u r p o s i ti o n o n h o w w e s h o u ld a c t u a ll y p r o c e e d w i th r e g a r d to this route. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : And so…. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w e r e t h e is s u e s o f c o n c e r n t o t h e b o a r d t h a t y o u b e c a m e a w a r e o f w i th r e g a r d t o t h e M u m b a i r o u t e w h e n y o u b e c a m e Page 62 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 in t e r i m C E O ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : C o r r e c t io n C h a ir I w a s n o t i n te r i m CEO. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o t in t e r i m . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s o n l y n o w t h a t y o u a r e i n te r i m . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : C E O a t th a t ti m e y o u w e r e C E O . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON : Okay yes. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h e c o n c e r n s I m e a n fr o m t h e b o a r d I t h i n k w e r e m o s tly w e ll fr o m M r D a k a s h a r i n g h i s e x p e r i e n c e is t h a t h is c o n c e r n w a s m o r e i n t e r m s o f th e p r e s s u r e th a t w a s b e in g p u t o n t h e b o a r d t o m a k e a v e r y q u i c k d e c is i o n i n r e l a t i o n t o th e t e r m in a ti o n o f t h is r o u t e . S o th a t is th e f ir s t t h in g th a t m a d e th e m u n c o m f o r t a b l e . T h e s e c o n d t h in g t h a t m a d e th e m u n c o m f o r t a b l e is t h a t a l t h o u g h t h e r e w a s a p r o p o s a l p u t i n fr o n t o f th e m t h a t a c t u a l ly 20 in d i c a t e d th a t t h e r o u t e w a s n o t p r o fi t a b le t h e y q u e s ti o n e d w h y t h a t p a r t ic u l a r r o u t e w a s t h e o n e t h a t w a s b e i n g g i v e n p r i o r it y b e c a u s e a t t h a t ti m e S A A h a d c h a l le n g e s o n a n u m b e r o f t h e in t e r n a t i o n a l r o u te s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w y o u s a i d th a t th is o n e b o a r d – t h is o n e m e m b e r o f t h e b o a r d s h a r e d th e s e c o n c e r n s o r is s u e s w i th y o u o r s h a r e d w i t h y o u c o n c e r n s o f th e b o a r d . Page 63 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : B u t y o u s a id s u b s e q u e n tl y t h e b o a r d r a is e d i t s c o n c e r n s w i t h y o u a s w e ll , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? O r th e y j u s t a s k e d y o u t o lo o k i n t o t h e is s u e s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o t h e b o a r d – m a y b e le t m e j u s t g o b a c k in t e r m s o f d e s c r ib in g th e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : A s it is s e t o u t in m y a ff id a v i t. T h e b o a r d w i t h m e t a k in g o v e r a s C E O o f S A A t h e y d i d a s k m e t o s a y 10 a s o n e o f th e fir s t t h i n g s th e y w o u ld a c t u a l ly l ik e m e t o r e v i e w o r lo o k a t t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t h a t h a d b e e n p u t i n fr o n t o f t h e m r e la t in g t o t h e c lo s u r e o f J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i . I n m y t e s t i m o n y I m a k e s p e c i f ic r e fe r e n c e t o a d i s c u s s io n t h a t I h a d w i t h M r D a k a in r e m i n d i n g m e w h e n I w a s h a v in g th e c o n v e r s a ti o n a r o u n d – a s p a r t o f m e p r e p a r i n g my a ffi d a v i t a n d h e s a id b y t h e w a y t h is w a s s o m e o f w h a t h a p p e n e d p r i o r t o y o u r a r r i v a l a t S A A w h ic h is p a r t o f w h a t m a d e u s u n c o m f o r ta b le a s a b o a r d a n d th e k e y i s s u e w a s j u s t h o w i t w a s b e in g r u s h e d a n d w e w e r e b e i n g – t h e y c a l li n g s p e c ia l m e e t in g s o r c o m m i t t e e m e e ti n g s t o tr y a n d g e t t h e a p p r o v a l th r o u g h . 20 And they were wondering why? Yo u k n o w t h e l e v e l o f d is c o m f o r t w a s o n t h e b a s is o f s a y in g w h y a l l t h is u r g e n c y w h e n th e r e a r e o th e r r o u t e s t h a t e q u a l ly a r e c h a ll e n g e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A t w h ic h fo r u m w a s t h e s u b m i s s i o n considered? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I t w a s c o n s i d e r e d a t t h e F in a n c e Page 64 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 Risk and Investment Committee. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: C a n I a s k y o u to tu r n t o p a g e 8 2 p l e a s e . D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h is d o c u m e n t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I d o C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : If y o u t u r n t o p a g e – in fa c t th e d o c u m e n t i s u n d e r th e h e a d i n g o f F i n a n c e R is k a n d In v e s t m e n t C o m m i t t e e . I t i s to F R I C b e in g t h e a c r o n y m f o r t h e s u b - c o m m i t t e e a n d it is f r o m G e n e r a l M a n a g e r M e r g e r s a n d A c q u is i ti o n s a n d i t is d a t e d 1 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 0 u n d e r a s u b j e c t t i tl e o f Te r m i n a t i o n o f F li g h t s fr o m 10 J o h a n n e s b u r g t o M u m b a i . I f I c a n a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 8 6 p l e a s e ? Whose signature appears under the – point 1 as the person who had c o m p il e d a n d r e c o m m e n d e d t h is d o c u m e n t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t is t h e s i g n a t u r e o f J a n B l a k e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h a t p o s i ti o n d id h e h o l d ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIM ELA : At that point he was the General M a n a g e r o f M e r g e r s a n d A c q u is i t io n s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : And at point 2 whose name and s ig n a tu r e a p p e a r s a s i n d ic a t e d t o h a v e b e e n a p p r o v e d b y E X C O ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t is t h e s i g n a t u r e o f C h r is S m y t h 20 w h o w a s t h e a c t i n g C h i e f E x e c u ti v e O ff ic e r p r i o r to m y a r r i v a l . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Thank you. A n d h a v in g c o n s i d e r e d t h is d o c u m e n t w h a t a r e t h e s a l ie n t f e a tu r e s o f t h is d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u c a n h ig h li g h t t o t h e c o m m is s i o n ? CHAIRPERSON : I a m s o r r y b e f o r e t h a t w a s t h is d o c u m e n t p r e p a r e d a n d s u b m it t e d t o F R I C b e f o r e y o u r t i m e ? Page 65 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t is th e d o c u m e n t y o u w e r e ta lk i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u s a i d w h e n y o u a r r iv e d y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h a t a s u b m is s io n h a d b e e n m a d e r e l a ti n g t o a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n fo r t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f t h e r o u t e Mumbai route? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d E X C O I s e e t h a t a t p a g e 8 6 i t i s in d ic a t e d u n d e r 2 a p p r o v e d b y E X C O a n d th e n C h r is S m y t h a c t in g C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r. 10 EXCO I assume would have been a number of p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n t h e c o m m i t t e e o r n o t r e a ll y – w h a t w a s th e p o s i ti o n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s C h a ir o r d i n a r i ly i f t h e r e is r e fe r e n c e to E X C O t h e i m p li c a t io n i s t h a t it is a ll t h e e x e c u ti v e committee members. CHAIRPERSON : I have agreed. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o – o k a y s o w h e n h e – s o th is a p p r o v e d b y E S C O m e a n s i t w a s n o t ju s t a p p r o v e d b y h i m i t is a p p r o v e d b y th a t g r o u p o f people? 20 Is that how you understand it? I am looking for your own u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t t h is is s u p p o s e d t o m e a n ? N o r m a lly it w o u ld – d o c u m e n ts t o s a y a p p r o v e d th e n t h e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n a n d h is o r h e r d e s i g n a t io n t h e n i t m e a n s t h a t is th e p e r s o n w h o h a s a p p r o v e d a n d th a t p e r s o n s i g n s . H e r e i t s a y s a p p r o v e d b y E X C O t h e n a p p e a r s th e n a m e C h r is S m y th t h e n a c ti n g C h ie f E x e c u ti v e O ff ic e r b u t th e r e is n o p r o v i s i o n f o r a n y o t h e r m e m b e r o f E X C O to s i g n s o I a m w o n d e r i n g Page 66 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 what your own understanding was when you saw it or the knowledge t h a t y o u g a in e d s u b s e q u e n tly a b o u t w h e t h e r t h is r e p r e s e n t e d th a t t h e g r o u p o f p e o p l e w h o f o r m e d E X C O h a d a p p r o v e d t h is . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : M a y b e C h a ir i f I c o u l d r e s p o n d i n t h e f o l l o w i n g m a n n e r. I t i s u n u s u a l f ir s tl y th a t it – h e s i g n s a s a n a c ti n g C E O a n d s a y s a p p r o v e d b y E X C O . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Because the EXCO approval is n o r m a l ly d o c u m e n t e d in a s e p a r a t e f o r u m w h ic h i s t h e E X C O m e e t i n g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I f t h a t m a t t e r h a d a c t u a ll y b e e n d is c u s s e d a n d s i g n e d o ff b y E X C O . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o th a t is t h e o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : In terms of my subsequent k n o w l e d g e i n r e l a ti o n to h o w t h i s a c tu a lly c a m e a b o u t I d o n o t b e l i e v e t h a t I c a n c o n fir m t h a t i t w a s a l l E X C O t h a t a p p r o v e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : This document. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Th e r e w e r e o n e o r t w o m e m b e r s o f E X C O t h a t h a d b e e n in v o lv e d . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : In t h is p r o c e s s b u t n o t a s a n Page 67 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 EXCO team. C H A I R P E R S O N : A s i n d iv id u a l s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Ja okay thank ou. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Thank you. So having considered t h e d o c u m e n t w h a t in y o u r v i e w a r e th e s a l ie n t f e a t u r e s a n d p o in ts o f a n y c o n c e r n a r i s i n g fr o m t h e d o c u m e n t? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e l e t u s s ta r t w i t h o b v i o u s l y y o u h a v e r e a d t h is d o c u m e n t , y o u r e a d i t m a n y y e a r s a g o a n d y o u h a v e r e fr e s h e d y o u r 10 memory on it. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Is that right? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : O n e i t r e c o m m e n d e d t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f t h e M u m b a i r o u t e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : What are the main reasons that it gave as to why the M u m b a i r o u t e s h o u l d b e c a n c e l le d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e r e a s o n s t h a t w e r e p r o v id e d a s 20 part of the recommendation was that the Mumbai route was a lo ss m a k i n g r o u te a n d t h a t t h e t e a m th a t w a s p u t t in g th is p r o p o s a l f o r w a r d s a w a n o p p o r t u n i ty – w e r e h i g h l ig h ti n g t h a t a d d i t io n a l ly t h e y s a w a n o p p o r t u n i ty t h a t i n c a n c e l li n g t h e r o u te t h e y w o u l d fr e e u p a i r c r a ft t h a t w o u ld b e u t il is e d o n o t h e r d e s ti n a t io n s a n d t h e t h i r d p o i n t th a t th e y t a b le a s p a r t o f t h i s d o c u m e n t i s t h a t t h e r e is J e t Ai r w a y s t h a t is Page 68 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 c o m i n g o n t o th e r o u t e a n d th e ir m o t iv a ti o n b a s ic a l ly th e n is t h a t S A A m u s t c a n c e l t h e r o u te a n d r a t h e r p u r e ly c o s h a r e o n J e t A ir w a y s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n y o u – w h e n y o u s a w th is r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o r d o c u m e n t f o r th e f ir s t ti m e h a d th e b o d y t o w h ic h i t w a s a d d r e s s e d h a d th e c h a n c e to d e li b e r a t e o n th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a l r e a d y o r h a d i t not yet? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : To m y k n o w le d g e C h a ir t h a t h a d a lr e a d y d e l i b e r a t e d o n t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : A n d i n d e e d h a d a ls o r a is e d c o n c e r n s w h ic h w e r e t a b l e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y l. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : As p a r t o f t h e r e s o lu t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Maybe you can – you can deal with what you u n d e r s t o o d t o th e ir c o n c e r n s w h e r e a n d t h e n y o u c a n g iv e y o u r o w n v ie w s o f t h e p r o p o s a l w h a t v i e w y o u t o o k o f t h is r e c o m m e n d a t i o n . Ye s you go. 20 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o – j a – s o C h a ir I m e a n a s in d i c a t e d w h a t w e r e t h e ir c o n c e r n s a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t is t h a t t h e y w e r e c o n c e r n e d th a t w h ils t it w a s tr u e t h a t M u m b a i fr o m a p o i n t to p o i n t p e r s p e c t iv e w a s n o t m a k i n g – w a s m a k in g a l o s s b u t th e y w e r e c o n c e r n e d th a t i t w a s n o t th e w o r s t p e r f o r m i n g r o u t e i n t h e n e t w o r k a n d t h e y c o u ld n o t q u i t e u n d e r s ta n d … Page 69 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : That is now FRIC? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s F R IC . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s . T h e y c o u ld n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y th e r e w a s a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o c lo s e o ff t h e r o u t e g iv e n t h a t i t w a s n o t t h e o n ly l o s s m a k i n g r o u t e o r t h e h i g h e s t lo s s m a k i n g r o u te . T h e y w e r e a ls o c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e m o t i v a t io n b e i n g b a s e d o n a c o d e s h a r e agreement 10 w i th Jet A ir w a y s who had a c tu a l ly announced th e i r in t e n t io n s to s t a r t f li g h t s b e t w e e n S o u t h A f r ic a n a n d M u m b a i . And r a i s i n g th e c o n c e r n s fr o m a t i m in g p e r s p e c tiv e t o s a y w h y y o u a r e r u s h i n g p r io r to th is c a r r i e r e v e n c o m in g o n t o t h e r o u t e b e f o r e w e c a n t a lk a b o u t t h e p o s s i b il it y o f a p o t e n t ia l c o d e s h a r e w i th th e m . A n d th e y a ls o a s k e d – r a is e d q u e s t io n s a r o u n d w h y o n ly J e t A ir w a y s h a d a c t u a ll y b e e n c o n s id e r e d a n d th a t w e r e t h e r e n o o t h e r o p p o r tu n it i e s t o p o s s i b ly I m e a n c o d e s h a r e w i t h o t h e r c a r r ie r s a s w e l l. T h a t i s w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d to be their concerns. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : A n d o n t h a t c a n y o u g o to p a g e 8 8 w h ic h y o u m a y h a v e b e e n o n a lr e a d y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : And the evidence that you have just g iv e n th e n d o c u m e n ts th o s e fo u r k e y p o i n t s o f c o n c e r n , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d a t t h e e n d o f t h e d o c u m e n t it in f o r m s t h e r e s o lu t io n t h a t w a s ta k e n f o r t h e r e c o r d c a n y o u r e a d th a t in t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ? Page 70 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t r e a d s a s fo ll o w s : “ T h a t r e s o lv e t h a t t h e s u b m is s io n b e s u b m it t e d to t h e S A A b o a r d fo r c o n s i d e r a t i o n ta k i n g i n t o a c c o u n t th e c o n c e r n s r a is e d b y FR I C a s i n d ic a te d a b o v e .” CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : What did you then Ms Mzimela? Did y o u ta k e a n y s t e p s a f t e r le a r n i n g a b o u t t h is c o n c e r n in r e la t io n t o t h e r o u t e c lo s u r e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 10 In d e e d I d i d b e c a u s e I h a d b e e n r e q u e s t e d b y th e b o a r d t o a c t u a ll y d o t h a t . S o I t h e n t a s k e d I m e a n o u r c o m m e r c ia l t e a m t o g o b a c k a n d r e v i e w t h e r o u t e a n d t h e a n a ly s is t h a t h a d b e e n p r o v id e d a s p a r t o f th is r e c o m m e n d a t io n . A n d I d o n e e d to m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t w h a t w a s fo u n d is t h a t t h is d o c u m e n t w h i c h w a s s u b m i tt e d to F R I C w a s q u it e c o m p r e h e n s iv e i n t e r m s o f t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t i t a c tu a l ly p r o v id e d b u t i t w a s a l s o q u i te s i l e n t o n o t h e r i s s u e s w h ic h I th in k w e r e q u i t e c r it ic a l in – f o r th e b o a r d t o m a k e th e ir d e c is i o n . T h e d o c u m e n t d o e s t a l k a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t S A A i s a n e t w o r k c a r r i e r. It ta lk s a b o u t t h e fa c t th a t w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e p e r fo r m a n c e o r a t l e a s t i t h i n ts o n t h a t. W h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e p e r fo r m a n c e o f t h e r o u t e 20 if y o u a r e a n e tw o r k c a r r i e r i t is i m p o r ta n t t o a ls o c o n s i d e r c o n n e c t io n tr a ffic a n d a ls o t h e c a r g o c o n tr i b u ti o n o f t h a t r o u t e . B u t i t is t h e n s i le n t o r r a th e r i t a ls o m e n ti o n s h o w s i g n i f ic a n t t h e c o n n e c ti n g tr a ff ic w a s o n t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i r o u t e b u t th e n i t b e c o m e s q u i t e s il e n t a b o u t o n c e y o u h a v e a d d e d t h e c o n n e c t in g r e v e n u e a n d y o u h a v e a d d e d t h e c a r g o r e v e n u e w h a t d o e s t h e a c t u a l p e r fo r m a n c e o f M u m b a i r e a ll y lo o k Page 71 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 lik e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: W h a t m a r k e ts d i d t h e M u m b a i r o u t e a l lo w S A A t o a c c e s s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I w i ll r e s p o n d in t h e fo ll o w i n g w a y t h a t f o r S A A o r a t l e a s t t h e t e a m t h a t I w o r k e d w i th I m e a n a t S A A f o r u s t h e M u m b a i r o u t e w a s n o t – w e d i d n o t r e v i e w i t o n ly o n t h e p e r f o r m a n c e w h i c h i s i m p o r t a n t o n ly o n i t s r o u te p e r f o r m a n c e b u t i t w a s a b o u t i ts s tr a t e g ic v a lu e t o S A A o n o t h e r d e s ti n a t i o n s a s a n e t w o r k c a r r i e r. W h a t I a m ta lk in g a b o u t t h e r e i s t h a t M u m b a i r o u t e f e d a l o t o f 10 tr a ffic o n to s o m e o f o u r r e g i o n a l r o u t e s s u c h a s J o h a n n e s b u r g / G h a n a , A c c r a a n d i t w a s a ls o t h e f a s t e s t li n k fr o m A s i a li k e i n I n d i a to S o u t h A m e r i c a a n d s o th e r e f o r e i t w a s a c r it ic a l fe e d e r t o o u r S o u t h A m e r i c a r o u t e a s w e ll a s S A A . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll p l e a s e j u s t r e p e a t f o r m e t h e t w o p o i n ts I t h in k you made. Yo u m a d e t h e o n e p o i n t w h ic h y o u s a i d t h a t d o c u m e n t r e c o m m e n d i n g th e c a n c e l la t io n o f t h e r o u te h i g h l ig h t e d b u t y o u t h e n m e n ti o n e d t h e p o i n t t h a t i t w a s s i l e n t o n w h ic h y o u r e g a r d e d a s q u it e i m p o r t a n t. J u s t r e p e a t th a t p a r t f o r m e ? 20 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : W h a t w a s I h ig h li g h t i n g C h a ir i s t h a t in r e la t io n t o t h e r e a s o n s w h y t h e r o u t e s h o u l d b e c l o s e d a n d s p e c i f ic a l ly w h e n t h e y a l s o m e n t i o n n u m b e r s t h e y h i g h li g h t w h a t t h e n u m b e r is i n r e l a ti o n t o th e p o i n t t o p o in t … CHAIRPERSON : That is passengers? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Passengers Page 72 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : revenue. J a p o i n t to p o in t p a s s e n g e r s a n d Th e d o c u m e n t d o e s s p e a k t o t h e fa c t t h a t t h is r o u t e is i m p o r t a n t i t is a s tr a te g i c r o u t e b e c a u s e it a c tu a l ly c o n tr ib u t e s s ig n if ic a n tly in t e r m s o f c o n n e c ti n g tr a ff ic t o o t h e r d e s ti n a t i o n s s u c h a s S o u th A m e r ic a a n d t o t h e r e s t o f t h e c o n ti n e n t . H o w e v e r th a t is w h e r e it s to p s . It then does not say based on the importance of these two e l e m e n ts if y o u t h e n a d d t h o s e n u m b e r s a n d b e q u i t e s p e c i f ic i n te r ms o f t h e n u m b e r t h is is w h a t th e p e r f o r m a n c e o f t h e r o u t e a c t u a l ly lo o k s 10 a t. S o t h e y s t o p t h e r e p o r ti n g o f t h e r o u t e a t a p a r t ic u l a r li n e a n d d o n o t g o b e l o w t h a t li n e t o a d d th e c o n n e c ti n g t r a ff ic a n d th e c a r g o r e v e n u e w h ic h i s c r i t ic a l o n t h is r o u t e a n d it is c o n tr i b u t i n g t o th e o v e r a l l n e tw o r k p e r fo r m a n c e . CHAIRPERSON : I c a n u n d e r s t a n d t h e – th e d e t e r m i n a ti o n o f w h a t r e v e n u e is a ff e c t e d b y lo w n u m b e r s i n t e r m s o f p a s s e n g e r s a n d b y h ig h numbers so to the extent that one attaches monetary value in terms of revenue. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : 20 To t h e n u m b e r s o f p a s s e n g e r s t h a t S A A h a d i n th a t r o u t e t h a t I c a n u n d e r s t a n d a n d a s y o u s a y th a t i s i m p o r ta n t . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : B u t I w o u ld li k e y o u t o e n li g h te n m e o n t h e a c t u a l s ig n if ic a n c e o f th e p a r t t h a t y o u s a y t h e y d id n o t d e a l w i t h . W h e th e r i ts s ig n if ic a n c e h a s g o t a n y t h i n g t o d o w it h r e v e n u e o r w h e th e r i t s s ig n if ic a n c e r e l a t e s t o o t h e r is s u e s o th e r t h a n r e v e n u e ? Page 73 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o C h a ir in r e s p o n s e I m e a n t o y o u r q u e s t io n I th i n k th a t w h e n th e t e a m a n d I t h e n p u t t h e p r o p o s a l f o r w a r d t o t h e b o a r d h ig h li g h t in g s o m e o f t h e th i n g s t h a t h a v e n o t b e e n t a k e n i n t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n i t f o r m e d t w o e le m e n ts . O n e a s i n p e r t a i n s t o a c t u a ll y r e v e n u e th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n p a r t o f w h a t I c a l l e d t h e c o n n e c t in g r e v e n u e b e c a u s e t h e r e is a n u m b e r t h a t y o u c a n a t ta c h t o t h e c o n n e c t in g r e v e n u e . T h e r e is a l s o a n u m b e r t h a t y o u c a n a t ta c h t o t h e c a r g o u p li f t b e t w e e n th e t w o d e s ti n a ti o n s . S o th a t w a s th e fir s t p a r t in t e r m s o f – fr o m a p u r e m o n e t a r y p e r s p e c t iv e t o s a y t h i s is s o m e t h in g 10 t h a t – I w o u l d s a y t h e d o c u m e n ts h i n ts o n b u t d o e s n o t g i v e t h e d e t a i l t o t h e b o a r d t h a t w a s t h e o n e b it . T h e s e c o n d r e a s o n w h y o u r p r o p o s a l w a s d i ff e r e n t t o t h e b o a r d w a s t h e s tr a te g i c v a l u e o f t h is r o u te f o r S A A e s p e c i a l ly i n g r o w in g i ts n e tw o r k t o S o u t h A m e r ic a . And we spoke a b o u t t h a t t o s a y i f y o u lo o k a t – w e a l w a y s s p o k e a b o u t th e f a c t th a t in t e r m s o f o u r g e o g r a p h ic a l lo c a t io n a s i n S o u t h A fr ic a f o r a n y b o d y c o m i n g o u t o f m o s t o f t h e d e s ti n a ti o n s i n A s i a i t i s p r o b a b ly q u ic k e r f o r t h e m t o g o v ia E u r o p e t o g o v i a o th e r p l a c e s b e fo r e t h e y g e t I m e a n t o t h e ir fi n a l d e s ti n a ti o n . B u t w h e r e w e h a d t h e r e a l s tr a te g ic a d v a n t a g e w a s to b e a b le t o m o v e p e o p le fr o m i n th is c a s e I n d i a t o S o u t h A m e r ic a 20 b e c a u s e i t w a s t h e q u ic k e s t w a y o r t h e q u i c k e s t r o u te s o i t w a s a s tr a t e g ic a d v a n t a g e I m e a n fo r S A A . A n o t h e r e le m e n t t h a t w e h i g h l ig h te d w h e n w e p u t f o r w a r d a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n n o t t o c l o s e t h e r o u t e w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s o n e t h i n g th a t h a d a ls o b e e n m is s e d i n t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w h ic h is th e In d ia n c a r r ie r o r a n y I n d i a n c a r r i e r c o m i n g t o S o u t h A f r i c a w o u ld n o t o n l y b e n e f it fr o m t a k i n g o v e r p a s s e n g e r s , Page 74 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 fl y i n g b e t w e e n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d M u m b a i b u t v e r y s p e c i fi c a ll y b e c a u s e t h e y h a d th e a b il it y o r th e y h a d b e e n a w a r d e d w h a t w e c a l l fi f t h fr e e d o m tr a ffi c r i g h ts t h e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b l e to a l s o p i c k u p p a s s e n g e r s fr o m S o u t h A f r i c a a n d ta k e th e m to S o u th A m e r ic a . W h i c h then our recommendation was that you cannot make a recommendation in is o l a ti o n o f t h e i m p a c t t h a t w o u ld h a v e o n o t h e r r o u t e s a s w e l l. A n d if y o u lo o k a t a l l o f t h a t in t o ta li t y i t a c t u a lly d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e a t a l l t o a c t u a l ly b e p u t t in g a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o te r m in a te t h e r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n te r ms o f – d o e s w h a t y o u s a y s u g g e s t th a t i n te r ms 10 o f t h e ir r e c o m m e n d a t i o n f o r t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f t h e M u m b a i r o u t e w h e n they ta lk e d about numbers of passengers did th e y t a lk about p a s s e n g e r s t h a t c o m e f r o m S o u t h A f r ic a a n d g o to M u m b a i a n d fr o m M u m b a i a n d c o m e b a c k , i s t h a t th e r e v e n u e e m a n a t i n g fr o m th o s e p a s s e n g e r s t h a t th e y t a lk e d a b o u t a n d n e g l e c t e d r e v e n u e th a t S A A g o t b y w a y o f p a s s e n g e r s w h o m a y h a v e c o m e f r o m o th e r c e n t r e s b u t i n t h e o th e r p l a c e s – b u t i n t h e p r o c e s s t o r e a c h t h e ir d e s t in a t io n s h a d t o i n p a r t u s e S A A t o M u m b a i ? Is th a t … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : N o a b s – y o u a r e c o r r e c t . Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e c o r r e c t t h in g . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s t h e c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: But how could they leave that out insofar as they w o u ld s e e k t o s a y h o w m u c h r e v e n u e d o e s t h i s r o u t e g i v e S A A ? O r is t h a t p a r t – th a t is p a r t o f w h a t y o u r p r o b l e m w a s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Th a t is p r e c is e l y w h a t I h a d a Page 75 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 p r o b le m w i t h o r I a n d th e te a m h a d a p r o b l e m w i t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i f y o u r e a d th e d o c u m e n t t h e y t a lk a b o u t t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f th o s e b u t th e n th e y d o n o t i n c l u d e i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d o n o t f a c t o r th e r e v e n u e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : T h e p a r t t h a t th o s e p a s s e n g e r s b r in g w h e n t h e y s a y t h is is th e r e v e n u e th a t t h e r o u t e g e n e r a t e s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . O k a y. And you say it did not make sense to le a v e th a t o u t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Thank you. So th r o u g h the d is c u s s io n o r t h r o u g h th e s u b m is s io n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y b e l e t m e ju s t – m a y b e l e t u s r o u n d t h is a s p e c t o f – w h e n t h e r e v e n u e th a t S A A w o u l d g e t t h r o u g h t h e p a s s e n g e r s t h a t t h e y – w h o s e r e v e n u e t h e y le f t o u t w h e n t h a t r e v e n u e w a s ta k e n i n t o a c c o u n t t o g e t h e r w it h t h e r e v e n u e t h a t t h e y t o o k i n to a c c o u n t h o w m u c h 20 d i ff e r e n c e d i d i t m a k e in t e r m s o f y o u r t e a m s i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIM ELA : It ma de – Chair through – it made a s i g n i fi c a n t d i ffe r e n c e b e c a u s e t h e c o n n e c ti n g tr a ff ic w a s q u i te s ig n if ic a n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A s a ls o a r t ic u l a t e d b y t h e m i n th e ir Page 76 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 document to say C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t is s ig n i f ic a n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : C o n n e c ti n g t r a ff ic . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : s u b s t a n t ia l . And also the cargo revenue was I t d i d n o t m e a n t h a t b y a d d i n g a ll o f t h o s e t h e r o u te s u d d e n l y b e c a m e p r o f i ta b l e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : B u t i t d e f in i te ly d e m i s h e d . CHAIRPERSON : YEs. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : W h a t w o u l d b e d e e m e d to b e t h e lo s s o n th a t r o u t e ? CHAIRPERSON : P a r t ic u l a r ly w h e n y o u h a v e t o c o m p a r e it w i t h o t h e r lo s s m a k in g r o u t e s I w o u l d i m a g in e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y th a n k y o u . M s S e p te m b e r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : 20 And so it is then your evidence if I u n d e r s t a n d i t c o r r e c t ly t h a t t h e M u m b a i r o u t e w a s n o t t h e w o r s t p e r f o r m i n g r o u t e t o S A A a t th e ti m e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Did it then make any sense to you as t o w h y th is p a r tic u l a r w a s b e in g i d e n t i fi e d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : N o it d i d n o t . Page 77 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Rev… CHAIRPERSON : D i d – I a m s o r r y. I n s o fa r a s t h e p a s s e n g e r s fr o m o th e r p la c e s - th a t w e t a lk e d a b o u t a f e w m i n u t e s a g o – a p a r t fr o m t h e f a il u r e t o t a k e i n to a c c o u n t t h e r e v e n u e c o m i n g fr o m t h e m is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g e ls e t h a t t h e t e a m w h o p r e p a r e d t h a t r e c o m m e n d a t io n a p p e a r e d n o t to h a v e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t o r t h a t y o u a n d y o u r t e a m t h o u g h t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t a k e n i n t o a c c o u n t. I t h i n k y o u m e n ti o n e d a t s o m e s ta g e s tr a t e g ic i m p o r t a n c e o f – I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th o s e p a s s e n g e r s o r th e c o n n e c t io n . 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ye s . S o t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir b e c a u s e w e v ie w e d i t a s a v e r y s tr a t e g ic r o u te f o r u s i n f e e d i n g i n t o S o u th A m e r ic a w h i c h w e w a n te d t o a c t u a l l y g r o w a s p a r t o f t h e n e t w o r k … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: And as already i n d ic a t e d in a d d it i o n w h a t th e y h a d n o t t a k e n i n t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n w a s th a t b e c a u s e I n d ia n c a r r ie r s – w e l l f o r s o m e s tr a n g e r e a s o n d o h a v e t h e a b i li ty t o p ic k u p tr a ffi c . S o i t is u n u s u a l f o r - a n d – b u t i t is u n u s u a l f o r a c a r r i e r to h a v e t h e a b il it y t o p ic k u p r e v e n u e p a s s e n g e r s fr o m a f o r e i g n 20 c o u n tr y t o a n o t h e r f o r e i g n c o u n tr y. N o r m a l ly w h a t h a p p e n s – n o t – i t i s – s o b a s i c – w h e n I s a y it is u n u s u a l i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t i t is n o t – i t is o n e o f th e fr e e d o m s o f t h e a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o – b u t it is h i g h ly u n u s u a l … Page 78 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: To f in d t h a t c o u n tr y t o c o u n tr y t h e r e h a s b e e n a p p r o v a l f o r fr e e d o m tr a ffi c r i g h ts . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h e y e x is t a s p a r t o f t h e C h ic a g o C o n v e n ti o n - e v e r y t h i n g e l s e – b u t o r d i n a r ily w h e n y o u d o th a t f ir s t o f a l l i t i s r e c i p r o c a l b e c a u s e y o u t h i n k a s a c o u n tr y t h e r e is p r o b a b l y v a l u e a s w e ll f o r y o u r o w n c a r r i e r s t o b e n e f i t f r o m p ic k i n g u p p a s s e n g e r s f r o m a f o r e i g n c o u n tr y to a n o t h e r fo r e ig n c o u n tr y a n d w e d o 10 n o t h a v e m a n y d e s t in a ti o n s a s f a r a s I k n o w o r a s f a r a s I k n e w a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e w h e r e – w h o h a d b e e n p r o v i d e d w it h t h e a b i li ty t o e x e r c is e t h a t r i g h t a n d w e f e l t q u i te s tr o n g ly t h a t t h e y h a d n o t t a k e n th a t i n t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n n o r h i g h l i g h t e d it t o t h e B o a r d t o s a y y o u m a y b e th i n k i n g t h a t w e a r e t e r m i n a t in g o r w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i R o u t e b u t w h a t e v e r y o u d o in t e r m s o f p r o v i d in g a n o th e r o r a n I n d i a n c a r r i e r i n t o S o u t h A fr ic a – i n to S o u t h A f r ic a is t h a t t h e r e w a s a v e r y g o o d p o s s i b i li t y t h a t t h e n e x t s te p w h ic h – w h a t I w o u l d h a v e d o n e o r w o u ld b e t o t h e n s a y b e c a u s e w e h a v e t h a t – w e h a v e t h is fr e e d o m tr a ffic r i g h t s a w a r d e d t o u s a s I n d i a n c a r r ie r s I a m a l s o n o w g o i n g t o 20 p r o v i d e a s e r v ic e w h e r e I p ic k r e v e n u e p a y i n g S o u t h A fr i c a n s f r o m S o u th A fr ic a i n c o m p e t i ti o n w it h S A A f u r t h e r t o S o u t h A m e r ic a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M s M z i m e la is i t c o r r e c t th a t a C o d e S h a r i n g A g r e e m e n t is – w a s t h e b a s is f o r c o ll a b o r a ti o n b e t w e e n S A A a n d J e t A ir w a y s ? Page 79 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: N o w p l e a s e h e lp u s t o u n d e r s ta n d e x a c tl y w h a t a C o d e S h a r i n g A g r e e m e n t is . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: I s i t c o r r e c t f ir s t t h a t i t is c o m m o n though to the industry? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: a r e v e r y, v e r y c o m m o n . C o d e S h a r i n g A g r e e m e n ts C h a ir In f a c t e s p e c ia lly fo r n e tw o r k c a r r i e r s i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u a r e c o n ti n u o u s ly tr y in g t o p u t i n t o p la c e w it h – w i t h 10 o th e r p a r t n e r s . S o is it a p a r t n e r s h i p b u t t h e y t a k e v a r i o u s fo r ms . They … ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: To – s o r r y – t o e x p l a i n t h o s e f o r m s c a n I ta k e y o u t o p a g e 1 2 a n d p e r h a p s th r o u g h p r a c t ic a l e x a m p l e s w e c a n u n d e r s ta n d w h a t a C o d e S h a r i n g A r r a n g e m e n t i s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: O k a y. S o th e y c a n t a k e - C o d e S h a r i n g P a r t n e r s h i p s c a n t a k e v a r io u s f o r m s . T h e y c a n t a k e t h e fo r m – m a y b e j u s t to e x p la in – w h a t w e c a l l a tr u n k r o u te w h ic h th e m a in r o u te . L e t u s s a y it is th e r o u t e b e t w e e n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d F r a n k f u r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a l l i t a c h u n k r o u t e ? 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Tr u n k . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : W h i c h i s li k e t h e m a i n r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o t h e y e i t h e r t a k e t h e fo r m t h a t t h e r e a r e t w o c a r r i e r s t h a t a r e f ly in g o n t h a t r o u t e a n d t h e y d e c id e t o Page 80 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C o d e S h a r e o n e a c h o t h e r w h ic h b a s ic a l ly m e a n s w h e n a p a s s e n g e r g o e s i n to t h e s y s te m t h e y s e e s e a t s u n d e r t h e S A C o d e b u t y o u f i n d t h e – t h e a c t u a l c a r r ie r t h a t is fly i n g t h a t r o u t e w o u l d p r o b a b ly b e a d i ff e r e n t c a r r i e r - l e t u s s a y - L u f th a n s a in th a t in s t a n c e b u t b o t h c a r r i e r s a r e f ly i n g o n th a t r o u te a n d t h e y d e c i d e t o p a r tn e r u p a n d o ff e r a Code Share. T h e r e is a ls o – I m e a n – C o d e S h a r e s w h e r e i t is o n ly o n e p e r s o n w h o is fl y i n g o n th e tr u n k r o u t e . I t d o e s n o t – t h e o t h e r p a r tn e r d o e s n o t fly o n t h a t r o u t e b u t t h e y a g r e e t o t h e n s a y l e t u s C o d e S h a r e 10 s o th a t a t l e a s t I h a v e m y C o d e s h o w i n g a s w e l l o n t h a t r o u te a n d I m a k e t h e e x a m p l e t h a t i f y o u l o o k a t J o h a n n e s b u r g / D u b a i R o u te t o d a y SAA f li e s or SAA w il l show in the s y s te m that they f ly J o h a n n e s b u r g / D u b a i b u t t h e y d o n o t e ffe c t i v e l y. T h e y a r e u s i n g t h e E m ir a te s M e ta l o r a i r c r a ft t o f ly b e t w e e n – b u t t h e y h a v e s e a t s a ll o c a te d a s a r e s u lt o f th e C o d e S h a r e . T h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld – w o u l d i t a l s o i n c lu d e a s it u a ti o n w h e r e S A A d o e s f ly to a p a r t ic u l a r d e s t i n a t io n b u t if o n a p a r t ic u l a r d a y i t r e a li s e s t h a t t h e r e a r e t o o f e w p a s s e n g e r s b u t t h e – t h e o t h e r a ir li n e h a s g o t – d o e s n o t h a v e e n o u g h b u t h a s m o r e . T h e n t h e y c o u l d m o v e th e m t o t h e 20 o th e r a ir li n e s o t h a t S A A d o e s n o t h a v e t o f ly a n d d o e s n o t h a v e t o in c u r e x p e n s e s w h e n th e y o n ly h a v e t o o fe w p a s s e n g e r s . W o u ld it in c l u d e s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t o r n o t r e a ll y ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: As part of the Code A g r e e m e n t i t w o u l d n o t b e g e a r e d t o a c tu a l ly a c c o m m o d a te … C H A I R P E R S O N : To ( in t e r v e n e s ) . Page 81 of 218 Share 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That type of issue. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : H o w e v e r f r o m a n o p e r a ti o n a l – t h e d a y t o d a y o p e r a t i o n a l p e r s p e c ti v e i t is o n e o f t h e t h i n g s th a t y o u c o u ld do. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: So le t us say for example s u d d e n l y y o u e x p e r i e n c e a te c h n ic a l … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A n d y o u a lr e a d y h a v e a n e x is ti n g C o d e S h a r e Ar r a n g e m e n t w i t h a p a r tn e r o n th a t s a m e r o u t e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Yo u c o u l d a c tu a lly m o v e a l l y o u r p a s s e n g e r s t o t h a t. CHAIRPERSON : Oh. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Pr a c t i c a l ly. CHAIRPERSON : I t h in k I w a s w o n d e r i n g b e c a u s e I t h in k I h a v e h a d s i tu a ti o n s w h e r e I th in k I a m o n S A A a n d t h e n t h e n e x t t h i n g I a m o n a n o t h e r – I a m p u t i n t o a n o t h e r a ir c r a f t t h a t d o e s n o t b e l o n g t o S A A b u t 20 m a y b e i t i s t h a t k i n d o f s it u a ti o n . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h a t w o u ld b e i n t h e s i t u a t i o n C h a ir w h e r e t h e r e is a C o d e S h a r e A r r a n g e m e n t in p la c e b e c a u s e o n t h e s y s t e m y o u a s a p a s s e n g e r u n l e s s y o u a r e f a m i li a r w i t h a i r c r a f t s y s te m s a n d s o fo r t h w o u ld n o t b e a b l e to t e ll … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 82 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : W h e t h e r t h is i s g o i n g t o b e o n a n SAA … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A ir c r a ft o r is g o in g t o b e o n a L u f t h a n s a ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Maybe – maybe … MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : But – but … ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Ja. 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: M a y b e ju s t to e x p l a i n t h o s e t w o b e f o r e w e g e t t o th e th ir d b y w a y o f e x a m p le s . T h e d i a g r a m o n p a g e 1 2 h a s a tr u n k r o u t e b e t w e e n Fr a n k f u r t a n d J o h a n n e s b u r g . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: O n t h e l e f t h a n d s i d e th e r e a r e c o n n e c t in g d e s ti n a t i o n s o n e b e i n g A m s t e r d a m , B r u s s e ls a n d Z u r i c h . O n t h e r ig h t h a n d s i d e t h e c o n n e c ti o n d e s t in a ti o n s fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g w o u ld b e D u r b a n , P o r t E li z a b e th a n d C a p e To w n . S A A a n d L u f th a n s a a r e i d e n ti f ie d h e r e a s th e tw o a ir li n e s tr a v e l li n g t h e tr u n k r o u t e . 20 I n th e f ir s t e x a m p le t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n a s a n e x a m p le – c o m m o n e x a m p l e o f C o d e S h a r e – y o u m e n ti o n th a t t h e r e a r e t w o a ir li n e s th a t b o t h f ly t h e tr u n k r o u t e … MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d th e n th e b e n e fi t to p a s s e n g e r s w o u ld – w o u l d m e a n w h a t e x a c tl y i n t h a t i n s t a n c e ? Page 83 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Well the b e n e f it to – to p a s s e n g e r s i f i t is o n ly o n th e tr u n k r o u t e is t h a t y o u h a v e a w i d e r c h o ic e . S o if I a m f ly in g a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k I h a v e a C o d e S h a r e w i t h s o m e b o d y w h o f li e s a t 1 2 o ’ c l o c k . It p r o v i d e s a p a s s e n g e r w it h a w i d e r c h o ic e in t e r ms o f t i mi n g – th e f l e x ib il it y o f t i m in g b u t w h i c h is t h e t h ir d o n e I w a s g o i n g t o g e t t o … A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: W h ic h a c t u a ll y w o r k s f o r b o t h th e t w o t h a t I h a v e a lr e a d y d e s c r i b e d w h ic h is t h e b e h i n d a n d b e y o n d C o d e 10 S h a r e s w h ic h is w h e r e th e r e a l b e n e fi t o f t h e C o d e S h a r e e s p e c i a l ly f o r c a r r i e r s t h a t a r e a lr e a d y p a r t n e r i n g u p o n – o n a tr u n k r o u t e a r e th e a d d it i o n a l p o i n ts t h a t y o u g e t o u t o f y o u r – t h e y g e t o u t o f y o u r h o m e t o w n o r y o u r h o m e b a s e a n d t h e a d d i ti o n a l p o i n ts t h a t y o u g e t o u t o f t h e ir h o m e b a s e o r h u b in o r d e r t o b e a b l e t o c o n n e c t y o u r p a s s e n g e r s s e a m le s s l y. S o i n t h i s e x a m p le t h a t I a c t u a ll y p r o v i d e d I w a s a c t u a l ly d e m o n s t r a t in g th a t y o u w o u l d h a v e – i f w e h a v e a C o d e S h a r e f o r e x a m p l e b e t w e e n S A A a n d L u ft h a n s a t h e r e a l b e n e f i t - e v e n t h o u g h y o u a r e s h a r i n g o n t h e tr u n k r o u te – t h e r e a l b e n e f i t f o r S A A a r e th o s e 20 b e y o n d p o i n t s s u c h a s Z u r ic h , Br u s s e ls a n d s o fo r t h b e c a u s e S A A n o w h a s t h e a b i li ty to b e a b l e t o s e ll a f li g h t o r to s e l l Br u s s e ls a s a d e s ti n a t io n b u t it d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r il y f ly i ts e l f a l l t h e w a y t o Br u s s e ls . O n o n e l e g y o u c o u ld b e fly i n g to S A A y o u c o n n e c t s ti ll o n y o u r S A A c o d e to y o u r f in a l d e s ti n a t i o n b e c a u s e t h e r e is a p a r tn e r s h ip t h a t e x is ts a n d w h e n y o u d o t h a t i t is n o r ma ll y r e c ip r o c a l b e c a u s e a s Page 84 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 y o u g i v e th e y a l s o n e e d t o g e t s o t h a t i t w o r k s f o r b o th p a r t ie s . It w o u ld … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d if w e … ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And … CHAIRPERSON : I a m s o r r y. I f w e l o o k a t th e d i a g r a m a t p a g e 1 2 i n r e g a r d t o w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g th e tr u n k – w o u ld t h e tr u n k r o u t e b e t h e r o u t e b e t w e e n Fr a n c e a n d J o h a n n e s b u r g ? Is i t Fr a n c e t h a t F R A ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm? 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Is i t F r a n k fu r t a n d J o h a n n e s b u r g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr a n k f u r t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, Fr a n k fu r t . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w – j a s o t h a t is Fr a n k fu r t a n d J o h a n n e s b u r g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h a t b e th e tr u n k r o u t e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o t b e y o n d ? 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. N o w y o u b o t h i n y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e n o w y o u h a v e t a l k e d a b o u t t h e r e is s o m e th i n g a n d b e y o n d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t g iv e m e th a t te r m a g a i n ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Behind and beyond. Page 85 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : Behind and beyond ja. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. W h a t d o e s t h a t t a lk a b o u t ? I n th is – in t h e e x a m p l e o f t h i s d ia g r a m a t p a g e 1 2 is t h e b e h in d a n d th e b e y o n d t a lk in g a b o u t Br u s s e ls , A m s t e r d a m a n d Z u r ic h ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A s w e ll a s D u r b a n , P o r t E l iz a b e th a n d C a p e To w n when you come to South Africa? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t – th a t i s w h a t i t r e fe r s t o ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w y o u h a v e s a id t h a t t h e r e is a c e r t a i n b e n e fi t a n d I g o t th e i m p r e s s io n th a t i t is q u it e a n i m p o r ta n t b e n e f i t th is b e h i n d a n d b e y o n d . S o ju s t e x p l a i n w h a t – w h a t i s t h e – th is b e n e fi t fo r t h e c a r r i e r a n d fo r t h e – f o r th e p a s s e n g e r s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o t h e b e n e fi t f o r th e c a r r ie r is t h a t i n th e s y s t e m fo r p a s s e n g e r s f ir s t ly p a s s e n g e r s w o u l d b e lo o k i n g t o fl y – t h e y w a n t t o b u y o n e ti c k e t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d o n e tic k e t i s o n e c a r r i e r n o t t o fi n d t h e m s e lv e s h a v i n g t o b u y o n e t ic k e t … CHAIRPERSON : Oh. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: W it h S A A a n d h a v i n g to b u y a n o t h e r t ic k e t w i th s o m e b o d y e ls e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . Page 86 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d i f a n y o n e h a s th e a b il i ty t o fl y – f ly t h e m d ir e c tl y … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : To t h e u l ti m a t e … C H A I R P E R S O N : U l ti m a t e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : D e s t i n a t io n … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: They are the ones who w ould a c t u a ll y b e p ic k e d f ir s t . 10 CHAIRPERSON : Ja, yes. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ye s . So therefore the real value f o r a n e n ti ty s u c h a s S A A t o h a v e a C o d e S h a r e w h i c h t a k e s b e y o n d p e o p l e b e y o n d t h i s is … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: That now the passenger can buy o n e ti c k e t … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d i s it o n S A A … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d it s h o w s t h e S A A C o d e a ll t h e w a y t o – y o u k n o w - t o s a y Br u s s e ls o r to Z u r i c h … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: B u t i t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r ily m e a n t h a t S A A is f ly i n g o n i ts o w n m e t a l … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Page 87 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Al l th e w a y t o Z u r ic h … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: But the passenger can buy one ti c k e t … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A n d i t is s e a m l e s s i n t e r m s o f c o n n e c t io n s b e c a u s e k e y t o t h e C o d e S h a r e A g r e e m e n ts is th a t y o u c h o o s e y o u r p a r t n e r s o n t h e b a s is o f t h e m b e i n g a b l e to c o n n e c t y o u r p a s s e n g e r s o u t o f y o u r d e s ti n a ti o n h u b a s q u ic k ly a s p o s s i b le . 10 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o if I a m a p a s s e n g e r e v e n t h o u g h I l a n d i n Fr a n k fu r t i f y o u d o n o t h a v e a C o d e S h a r e th a t is in p l a c e w h e r e th e p a r t n e r a lr e a d y h a s a f li g h t t h a t le a v e s w i t h i n s a y t w o / t h r e e h o u r s t h e r e is n o r e a l b e n e fi t . S o t h e ti m i n g o f t h o s e c o n n e c t io n s b e c o m e s a n i m p o r ta n t fa c t o r … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In c h o o s i n g a C o d e S h a r e … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: 20 B e c a u s e in th e a b s e n c e o f t h a t I m i g h t a s w e ll a s a p a s s e n g e r b u y tw o ti c k e ts … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I f I h a v e t o f ly t o F r a n k f u r t a n d wait for a day before I connect … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : O n a n o th e r c a r r i e r t o Br u s s e ls . Page 88 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e b e n e f i t h a s g o t n o th in g t o d o w i t h w h e t h e r f o r e x a m p l e i n th is e x a m p l e a t p a g e 1 2 … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I f I a m c o m in g fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g – i t h a s g o t n o th i n g t o d o w it h w h e th e r i n Fr a n k fu r t I w il l g e t o u t o f t h e o n e p l a n e a n d th e n t a k e a n o t h e r o n e t o Br u s s e ls . It h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h a t . A ll i t h a s is s i m p ly t h a t I s h o u l d b e a b l e t o p r o c e e d th e s a m e d a y o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Yo u a r e a b le t o p r o c e e d a s – a s q u ic k a s p o s s ib l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s q u ic k a s p o s s ib le . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : As q u ic k a s p o s s i b l e y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t i s n o t a p a r tic u la r b e n e fi t t h a t y o u w i ll n o t h a v e t o c o n n e c t. Yo u m a y s ti ll h a v e t o c o n n e c t? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Yo u d o – d e fi n it e ly C h a ir – y o u d o s t il l n e e d t o c o n n e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Yo u w o u ld k n o w w h e n y o u l a n d i n a n y f o r e i g n c o u n tr y … CHAIRPERSON : Ja. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Yo u s ti ll n e e d to g o t h r o u g h … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I m m i g r a ti o n … Page 89 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : But – yes. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: a r e c o n n e c ti n g b u t y o u a r e S o t h e b e n e fi t w o u l d b e t h a t y o u c o n n e c ti n g a s q u ic k ly as p o s s i b le . S e c o n d ly y o u a r e o n ly b u y i n g o n e t ic k e t … CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: On SAA. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Even though even the second … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e s e c o n d p o r t i o n is n o t S A A . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o i t i s o n e ti c k e t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : B u t t h e C o d e S h a r in g A r r a n g e m e n t s a r e t h e y o n ly p o s s i b le w h e r e o n a n i n t e r n a ti o n a l l e v e l n o t w h e n y o u m o v e a r o u n d d o m e s ti c a lly ? 20 MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Code Shares are not very common o n – o n d o m e s ti c b u t i t is n o t a s if t h e y a r e o n ly o n in t e r n a t io n a l … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : B e c a u s e t h e y a r e m o s tly d r i v e n b y tr y i n g t o i m p r o v e a n e t w o r k – e s p e c i a lly f o r n e t w o r k c a r r ie r s th e y h a v e ty p i c a ll y b e e n o n t h e i n t e r n a ti o n a l r o u t e s , y e s . Page 90 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : O k a y. No thank you. S o – b u t in th is e x a m p le a t p a g e 1 2 i t w o u l d n o t b e a n y t h i n g lik e s o m e b o d y c o u ld fl y fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g s tr a ig h t to B r u s s e l s . Yo u w o u l d s ti ll h a v e to g o t o Fr a n k fu r t a n d – fir s t b e fo r e p r o c e e d i n g t o B r u s s e ls ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o in c o n t e x t S A A h a d a f li g h t fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g g o M u m b a i . I s t h a t r i g h t ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. 10 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d J e t A ir w a y s w a s w a n t i n g to c o m e o n b o a r d – e x c u s e t h e p u n – t o c o n c l u d e a C o d e – c a n n o t b e l ie v e t h is word has just … MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Code Share. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Code Share Agreement with SAA in t h a t r e g a r d . H a v in g e x p la i n e d t h e c o m m o n ty p e s o f C o d e S h a r e w h a t e x a c tl y d i d J e t A ir w a y s r e q u ir e o f S A A i n o r d e r to c o n c l u d e t h a t C o d e Share? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o j u s t t o s t e p b a c k t h e r e . Th e r e is a b s o l u t e ly n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h C o d e S h a r e s a n d y o u c a n i m p l e m e n t 20 C o d e S h a r e s w i th t w o c a r r i e r s b e i n g o n t h e s a m e r o u t e . T h e d i ffe r e n c e h e r e is t h a t J e t A ir w a y s d o e s n o t s a y I w o u l d l ik e to C o d e S h a r e w it h you. Yo u a r e a lr e a d y o n t h e r o u te . L e t u s w o r k to g e th e r to tr y a n d i m p r o v e th e p e r f o r m a n c e o f t h e r o u te b y u s C o d e S h a r i n g o n e a c h o t h e r o n t h e tr u n k a n d h a v i n g b e y o n d p o in t s . I t d o e s n o t s a y t h a t. J e t A ir w a y s c o m e s w i t h a p r o p o s a l t h a t s a y s S A A y o u Page 91 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t e r m in a t e y o u r o p e r a ti o n – y o u t e r m i n a te y o u r p h y s ic a l o p e r a t io n between Johannesburg and Mumbai and you Code Share on us – put y o u r p a s s e n g e r s o n u s b u t y o u s to p fl y i n g J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i. CHAIRPERSON : A n d I g u e s s p a r t o f w h a t is s t r a n g e is h o w c a n s o m e b o d y e l s e c o m e a n d m a k e t h a t d e m a n d t o s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o is r u n n in g th e i r o w n b u s i n e s s s a y g e t o u t I w a n t to g e t i n b e c a u s e d i d n o t – d id i t n o t a m o u n t t o th a t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Q u i t e s i m p ly i t a m o u n te d t o t h a t C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e y s a i d g e t o ff . W e a r e c o m in g o n t o th e r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : But you then Code Share on us. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d a s f a r a s y o u k n o w a n d m a y b e y o u w il l – y o u a r e s t il l g o in g t o d e a l w it h t h is la t e r a n d y o u c a n s a y i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i th i t l a te r. I f th e – i f t h e r o u te w a s m a k i n g s u c h l o s s e s t h a t i t w a s j u s t – i t w o u l d b e ju s ti fi e d fo r S A A t o c l o s e i t o r t o s to p r u n n i n g i t w h y w o u l d i t b e f i n e f o r t h e m t o – to r u n i t o r th e y – m a y b e th e y t h o u g h t 20 t h e y c o u l d – th e y k n e w s o m e t h i n g th a t S A A d i d n o t k n o w a n d th e y w e r e g o i n g t o d o a b e tt e r b u s i n e s s . Is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t e m e r g e d i n t h e d i s c u s s io n s a t a n y r a r e - a t a n y s t a g e o r n o t r e a ll y ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: N o t r e a ll y C h a ir b u t y o u a c t u a ll y r a i s e d a n i m p o r t a n t p o i n t. T h e y p o s s i b ly – I a m n o t s a y in g t h is is it – Page 92 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h e y p o s s ib ly w o u l d h a v e b e e n o f t h e v ie w th a t t h e y h a d a b e t t e r product … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Than SAA. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e o n e t h i n g t h a t d id c o m e u p … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A s p a r t o f t h e d i s c u s s io n s is th a t I t h i n k S A A a t th a t p o i n t w a s o p e r a ti n g f o u r fr e q u e n c ie s – a n d I s t a n d t o 10 be corrected. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: O n l y f o u r fr e q u e n c ie s a w e e k between Johannesburg and Mumbai … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A n d t h e y w e r e s a y in g t h e y h a v e t h e a b il i ty to b e a b l e to o p e r a t e a d a i ly s e r v ic e … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : B e c a u s e t h e y h a v e g o t th e a ir c r a f t to be doing … 20 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : To b e a b l e t o d o t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A d a i ly s e r v ic e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A d a i l y s e r v ic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e r u n n in g h o w m a n y … ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : F o u r f li g h ts p e r w e e k … Page 93 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo u r fl i g h t s a w e e k . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d t h e y w e r e s a y i n g th e y h a d t h e a b il i ty to o ff e r s e v e n fr e q u e n c i e s p e r w e e k . CHAIRPERSON : Is t h a t n o t s tr a n g e i f y o u s a y th is r o u t e is m a k i n g a lo s s fo r s o m e b o d y w h o - w h o u s e s i t f o u r ti m e s a w e e k a n d t h e n y o u s a y y o u w il l u s e i t f o r s e v e n d a y s a w e e k ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s y o u m i g h t n o t b e . O k a y, a lr i g h t . O k a y, t h a n k you. 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: W h a t w a s t h e B o a r d ’s p o s i ti o n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n m a d e b y F R IC – th e F R I C C o m m i t t e e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I s t h i s t h e fir s t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o r w h e n w e – a s t h e - l e t u s c a ll i t t h e n e w t e a m ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Ye s . In fa c t once the r e c o m m e n d a ti o n is t h e n – t h e n m a d e y o u t h e n t a k e s t e p s – a s I u n d e r s t a n d it – to in c l u d e t h e C o m m e r c ia l Te a m t o t a k e n e c e s s a r y s t e p s in t h a t r e g a r d a n d a t s o m e o r o t h e r s t a g e i t g e ts p r e s e n t e d . Is 20 t h a t r ig h t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. We then p r e s e n t t h e p r o p o s a l to t h e B o a r d a n d t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n i s n o t to t e r m in a t e th e M u m b a i R o u te b u t th e r e is a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t th a t t h e r e is w o r k t h a t w il l n e e d t o b e d o n e t o i m p r o v e t h e p r o f i ta b i li t y o f th e M u m b a i R o u t e m u c h li k e - y o u k n o w – o t h e r in i ti a tiv e s t h a t w e r e b e in g Page 94 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 p u r s u e d o n o t h e r r o u t e s a n d th a t – i n t h a t r e g a r d w e h a d n o p r o b l e m w i t h l o o k i n g a t a C o d e S h a r e A r r a n g e m e n t t h a t h e l p s to b e n e fi t S A A a n d s p e c i fi c a ll y w h e n i t – n o t s p e c i f ic a ll y i n t e r m s o f t h e b e h i n d a n d b e y o n d – I m e a n – p o in t s o u t o f M u m b a i . I f w e a r e a b le t o d o t h a t t h e r e w a s r e c o g n it io n f r o m t h e t e a m t h a t i t w o u ld i m p r o v e t h e p r o fi t a b i li ty o f M u m b a i . S o th a t w a s t h e p r o p o s a l . W e a ls o h a d a c t u a l ly r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h e r e b e a c h a n g e in t h e – I c a n n o t u s e te c h n ic a l t e r m s – in t h e g a u g e o f t h e a ir c r a f t – t h e ty p e o f a ir c r a f t – i n t h e t y p e o f a ir c r a f t t h a t is u t il is e d o n th e r o u t e 10 b e c a u s e t h e ty p e o f a ir c r a f t t h a t h e u s e d a ls o c a n m a k e t h e d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n p r o f i ta b ili t y a n d l o s s m a k i n g . S o i t w a s t h e s e c o n d r e c o m m e n d a t io n th a t h a d b e e n m a d e . E s s e n t ia ll y w e w e r e b a s i c a ll y s a y i n g t h e r o u t e s h o u l d n o t b e t e r m i n a t e d b u t th e r e is w o r k th a t c a n – s h o u l d b e u n d e r t a k e n t o i m p r o v e t h e r o u t e a n d t h e r e fo r e i n t h a t r e g a r d w e h a d n o p r o b l e m i n h a v i n g a d is c u s s i o n w i t h J e t A ir w a y s a b o u t a p o s s i b le C o d e S h a r e o n th o s e b e h i n d a n d beyond routes. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n o n p a g e 1 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it – o f th e b u n d le p a r a g r a p h 3 2 y o u t a lk s p e c i fi c a ll y t o d o c u m e n t s t h a t 20 h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d t o y o u b y t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s i n v e s t ig a to r s . CHAIRPERSON : Be – before that – before you r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t o F R I C o r t h e B o a r d w a s i t to F R I C ? made your Yo u r – y o u r o w n t e a m ’s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s it p r e s e n te d t o F R IC o r t o t h e B o a r d o r to b o t h ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I s t a n d t o b e c o r r e c te d o n t h a t Page 95 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C h a ir b e c a u s e w e a r e a c tu a l ly tr y i n g t o fi n d t h e a c tu a l d o c u m e n ts without much success … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: But I suspect that because it had a lr e a d y b e e n e l e v a t e d t o t h e B o a r d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t w e n t d i r e c t ly to th e B o a r d i n t h i s respect. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e – b e f o r e t h a t s ta g e w h e r e i t w a s p r e s e n t e d t o th e B o a r d d i d y o u o r y o u r t e a m g e t a c h a n c e t o e n g a g e w it h t h o s e w h o h a d w r i t t e n t h e o t h e r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n f o r t h e – t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n fo r t h e c a n c e l la t io n to e n g a g e th e m o n t h e ir r e a s o n s a n d w h y t h e y h a d l e f t o u t things that appear to be important to your team and hea r what answers t h e y h a d f o r y o u r q u e s ti o n s o r a r g u m e n ts ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Indeed C h a ir we d id get an o p p o r t u n i ty t o d o s o b e c a u s e p o s t m y a p p o i n t m e n t Mr C h r i s S m y t h f e ll b a c k to h i s o r i g i n a l p o s i ti o n w h ic h w a s G M o f O p e r a ti o n s . S o h e w a s 20 s t il l i n th e s y s t e m a n d M r J a n B l a k e r e m a i n e d in t h e s y s t e m o n ly fo r a s h o r t w h il e b e fo r e w e r e s tr u c tu r e d t h e a r e a b u t h e w a s t h e r e f o r a f e w m o n th s – y o u k n o w – a s w e l l a t th e … CHAIRPERSON : A n d h e w a s t h e c o m p il e r o f t h a t m e m o r a n d u m r e c o m m e n d i n g c a n c e ll a ti o n ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 96 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ja. S o w e d i d a c t u a l ly g e t a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o e n g a g e w i t h b o th in d i v i d u a ls o n – o n th is . I think M r J a n B l a k e a n d y o u c a n – I c a n t e l l a t l e a s t – in t e r m s o f t h e q u a l i ty o f t h e d o c u m e n t i s a p e r s o n – i f h e i s t h e o n e I m e a n w h o c o m p i le d it – t h a t h e e n s u r e d t h a t fr o m h is s i d e h e – th e d o c u m e n t c o n t a i n s e v e r y t h i n g t h a t i t n e e d s t o c o n t a i n e x p e c t f o r b e in g s p e c i f ic a n d s o t h a t is t h e o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o t h a t w a s h is i s s u e t o s a y – w e l l h e w a s a s k e d t o a c t u a lly c o m p i le t h e d o c u m e n t a n d h e e n s u r e d th a t h e h i g h l ig h ts th e i s s u e s a b o u t t h e r o u te b e i n g a s tr a t e g ic r o u te … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: H a v i n g s ig n i f ic a n t – c o n n e c ti n g tr a ffic a n d s o f o r th b u t i t s e e m s l ik e t h e r e w a s a d e c is io n t h a t w a s a lr e a d y m a d e o r b e in g m a d e s o m e w h e r e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s b u t w h e n t h e r e w a s a c o u n t e r – I m e a n – p r o p o s a l n o n e o f th e t w o g e n tl e m e n a r g u e d a g a in s t w h a t 20 w a s t h e n s u b s e q u e n tly p u t f o r w a r d t o s a y b u t o n t h e b a s is o f t h e f o ll o w i n g … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h is is w h a t i t n o w l o o k s l ik e versus what you … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Page 97 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ac t u a lly p r e s e n t e d … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : To F R I C . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m ; d o e s t h a t m e a n th a t o n c e t h e y w e r e a p p r is e d o f w h a t y o u r t e a m w a s s a y in g in t e r m s o f th i s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d – a n d o f t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n th a t y o u r te a m w a n t e d to m a k e t o t h e B o a r d a n d t h e r e a s o n s w h y y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e t h a t – th a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h e y did not have any – any argument against your recommendation. Is that – is t h a t w h a t i t m e a n s ? 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t – th a t i s w h a t i t is – I m e a n – C h a ir a n d j u s t to b e c l e a r t h e y o b v i o u s l y a l s o fo r m e d p a r t o f m y t e a m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e d i ff e r e n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Is t h a t I h a d a c t u a l ly a ll o c a te d i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: To t h e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t s h o u l d have been responsible … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: For u n d e r t a k in g this w h ic h i s t h e C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : C o m m e r c ia l D e p a r t m e n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 98 of 218 a n a ly s is 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: W h o w o r k e d v e r y c lo s e ly w i t h t h e A s i a Te a m t h a t w a s b a s e d . . . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A n d lo o k e d a ft e r t h e M u m b a i Route as well. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y w e r e p a r t o f y o u r t e a m t h a t c a m e u p w i th t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ? 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o u l ti m a t e l y i n e ff e c t … MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y – t h e y w e r e p e r s u a d e d t h a t t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n f o r t h e c a n c e ll a t io n of the Mumbai Route was not the correct r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d t h e y w e n t a l o n g w i t h t h e l a t e s t r e c o m m e n d a t io n to s a y d o n o t c a n c e l b u t th e r e i s w o r k to b e d o n e t o w a r d s a c h i e v in g a C o d e S h a r i n g w it h J e t A ir w a y s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I w il l p l a c e i t d i ff e r e n t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I m e a n - C h a i r a n d s a y th e y c o u l d n o t a r g u e a g a i n s t t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Because the – the final r e c o m m e n d a ti o n r a i s e d a n d a d d r e s s e d is s u e s t h a t t h e y h a d n o t r a is e d … Page 99 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: And therefore they would have to b e – th e r e w a s a c c e p t a n c e fr o m t h e ir p a r t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A n d t h a t w a s th e c a s e a n d t h a t w a s a tr u e r e f le c t i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : O r a t r u e s ta t u s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : O f th e r o u t e a t th a t p o in t in ti m e . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , o k a y. O k a y, a lr ig h t b u t t h e y – t h e y n e v e r w i t h d r e w th e ir r e c o m m e n d a t io n fo r m a l ly ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : T h e e a r li e r d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e I s e e t h e r i s k – t h e F R IC w h a t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n w r o t e in t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t w e l o o k e d a t e a r l ie r d i d n o t s e e m to ta k e a d e c i s i o n b u t s i m p ly s a i d w e h a v e r a is e d c o n c e r n s . Th e i s s u e m u s t b e l o o k e d a t . S o – s o i n o t h e r w o r d s i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t t e c h n ic a ll y t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w o u l d s t il l b e b e f o r e F R IC o r th e B o a r d n o w t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e n e w r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d t h e B o a r d 20 w o u ld h a v e t o l o o k a t b o t h ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. CHAIRPERSON : Wa s that your u n d e r s ta n d i n g or was your u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t t h e l a t e s t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o o k t h e p l a c e o f th e e a r l ie r o n e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h e la t e s t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n to o k Page 100 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h e p l a c e o f t h e e a r l ie r o n e b u t m a k i n g r e f e r e n c e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : To t h e p r e v i o u s o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: To s a y t h is is w h a t h a d b e e n presented to FRIC … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: B u t th is is w h a t w a s a c t u a l ly m is s i n g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h i s is w h a t h a s b e e n c o n s i d e r e d in t h e n e w … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Pr o p o s a l … CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d h e n c e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n is … C H A I R P E R S O N : Is … 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : D i ff e r e n t . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Fr o m t h e o n e th a t h a d b e e n p r e v i o u s ly ta b l e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. Ms Mzimela is it correct Page 101 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h a t M s C h e r y l C a r o l u s w a s th e C h a i r p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d a t th e ti m e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And are you aware of any exchange o f c o m m u n i c a t io n b e t w e e n t h e M in is tr y w h o w a s M i n is t e r B a r b r a H o g a n a t t h e t i m e w i t h t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s I a m a w a r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t o n th e i s s u e o f th e M u m b a i R o u t e ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y. 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 9 4 p l e a s e ? W h o is M r N a r e s h G o y a l ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: M r Naresh Goyal – I t h in k E x e c u t iv e C h a ir o r C E O o r E x e c u t iv e C h a ir a n d C E O o f J e t A ir w a y s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M s S e p te m b e r I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e a r e o n the same page. W h e n w e c o m e t o t h i s – t o p a g e 9 4 is i t w h e n t h e B o a r d h a d m a d e a d e c is io n o n th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o r n o t y e t ? I f – if it is a f t e r I w o u ld lik e u s to fi n a l is e t h a t a n d k n o w w h a t th e B o a r d ’s d e c is i o n w a s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t b e f o r e ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Let me ask it through the witness. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A t th e d a te o f 1 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 0 w h ic h i s th e d a t e o f t h i s p a r t ic u l a r l e t te r a r e y o u a w a r e a s t o w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e B o a r d h a d b e e n a t t h is ti m e t a k e n a d e c is io n in n o t a d o p t in g t h e Page 102 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 c lo s u r e o r th e M u m b a i R o u t e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I ’ m n o t i n a p o s i t io n t o c o n fir m the exact date. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A s t o w h e n t h a t d e c is i o n w a s m a d e b u t j u s t r e c a lli n g th a t I s t a r te d in A p r il a n d i t w a s o n e o f th e fi r s t t h i n g s th a t t h e B o a r d a s k e d m e t o r e v ie w b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e u n d e r s u c h p r e s s u r e t o m a k e a d e c is i o n . I t h i n k I c a n c o m f o r t a b ly c o n fir m t h a t a t th is s ta g e t h e B o a r d h a d a lr e a d y m a d e t h e c a l l t h a t t h e y w e r e 10 n o t t e r m in a ti n g th e r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e B o a r d ’s d e c is i o n w a s t h a t – w a s t o a p p r o v e y o u r – t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f y o u r te a m ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o o n p a g e 9 4 a p p e a r s a l e t te r fr o m th e th e n M i n is te r o f P u b lic E n t e r p r i s e s , w h ic h a p p e a r s a l t h o u g h f a i n tly m a r k e d d a t e d 1 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d i ts a d d r e s s e d to M s C A C a r o lu s , b e i n g t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f S o u t h A fr ic a n A i r w a y s a n d t h e s u b j e c t ti tl e i s m e e t in g w i th M r N a r e s h G o y e l l, J e t A ir w a y s o n 3 1 20 O c t o b e r A u g u s t 2 0 1 0 . Yo u a r e a w a r e o f t h i s le t t e r, is th a t r i g h t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Ye s . Can you please just explain to the C h a ir w h a t t h e v e r y n a t u r e o f th is le t t e r w a s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: M y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m t h e t h e n M i n i s t e r a d d r e s s e d t o th e C h a i r p e r s o n is Page 103 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 a request for i n f o r m a ti o n in terms of tr y i n g to get a better u n d e r s t a n d in g a s t o t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p t h a t e x is t b e t w e e n S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s a n d J e t A ir w a y s a n d t h is is o f – a s a r e s u l t o f t h e M i n i s t e r b e i n g a p p r o a c h e d b y M r N a r e s h G o y e ll w it h r e g a r d t o t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g Mumbai Route. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d a t t h e s e c o n d b u ll e t p o in t o n t h is le t t e r i n f o l lo w u p to t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f th e fi r s t p a r a g r a p h w h i c h reads: “ I h a v e a d h e r e d t o y o u r r e q u e s t a n d w o u l d a p p r e c ia t e y o u r u r g e n t r e p ly i n r e l a ti o n s to t h e f o l lo w in g . . .” 10 S e c o n d b u l le t p o i n t “ I n w h a t w a y my m e e ti n g w it h Mr N a r e s h G o y e l l w o u l d i m p a c t s u c h m a t te r s .” The second last b u l le t point queries r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n J e t A ir w a y s a n d S A A ? abo ut what th e e x i s ti n g And the last one in what w a y d o e s S A A e x p e c t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n J e t A ir w a y s a n d S A A t o d e v e l o p in f u t u r e . D o e s th e c o n te n ts o f t h is e m a il s u g g e s t o r c o n f ir m t h a t th is w a s p a r t ic u l a r to t h e M u m b a i r o u t e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : I n d e e d C h a ir. D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r o r n o t th e r e w a s a r e s p o n s e t h a t w a s s e n t t o Mi n is t e r B a r b r a H o g a n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I b e l ie v e t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a response. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : And then can I take you to page 96. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s . Page 104 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : C h a i r d e s p i te s e v e r a l n u m e r o u s e ffo r t s to g e t b e t t e r c o p i e s o f t h is d o c u m e n t w e h a v e u n f o r t u n a te ly n o t been successful in doing so. CHAIRPERSON : W e l l t h e l e t t e r fr o m M r B a r b r a H o g a n to M s C a r o lu s w a s i t n o t d e a l t w i t h w h e n t h o s e tw o w i t n e s s e s g a v e e v id e n c e ? B o th o f t h e m h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e a m o n g s t o th e r s o n t h e M u m b a i r o u t e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : C e r t a i n ly t h e c o n t e n t s o f e v id e n c e t h a t h a v e b e e n g iv e n t a l k s – t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e e v i d e n c e th a t w a s g iv e n t a lk s to th e M u m b a i r o u t e a s M s B a r b r a H o g a n w a s a p p r o a c h e d 10 o n i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th e n e x t o n e t h a t y o u w a n t t o g o to i s a d d r e s s e d t o M s B a r b r a H o g a n b y w h o , b y Ms C a r o l u s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON : So I’m wondering w h e th e r t h e r e ’s p a r t ic u l a r s ig n if ic a n c e th a t y o u w a n t t h i s w i t n e s s , w h o is n o t t h e a u th o r a n d th e n o t t h e a d d r e s s e e , w h e t h e r th e r e is s o m e t h i n g s ig n i f ic a n t y o u w a n t h e r to talk about in it? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir. M s M z i m e l a a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e r e p ly th a t w a s s e n t b y M s C a r o l u s to M i n is t e r B a r b r a 20 Hogan? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Ye s I a m . And in – bearing in mind that we h a v e s u c h a r e a l ly fa in t c o p y o f th e l e t te r i ts e l f c a n y o u g iv e c l a r i ty to w h a t y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n is o f t h e c o m m u n i c a ti o n t h a t w a s s e n t b y M s C a r o lu s t o M s B a r b r a H o g a n ? Page 105 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u a t a n y s t a g e a t t h a t ti m e s e e i t , th e le t t e r ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: C h a ir I w o u l d h a v e , i n l o o k in g a t t h e le t t e r a n d th e w a y i n w h ic h i t ’s a c tu a lly w r it t e n I c a n c o n fir m t h a t t h e b u lk o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t M s C a r o l u s h a s a c t u a l ly u s e d i n h e r r e s p o n s e to th e M i n is te r i s a c t u a ll y p a r t o f t h e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w e p r e s e n t e d t o th e B o a r d a s m o t iv a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : O f w h y w e s h o u l d k e e p th e r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : B e c a u s e h e r r e s p o n s e r e la t e s to w h y w e b e li e v e it is i m p o r t a n t f o r u s to s t a y o n J o h a n n e s b u r g M u m b a i b u t it a ls o t a lk s t o t h e – n o t th e d e c i s io n b u t t h e i n i ti a ti v e s th a t m a n a g e m e n t a r e h a p p y t o p u r s u e w i t h J e t A i r w a y s i n te r ms o f p u t ti n g t o g e th e r a c o - c h a ir a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t i s m u tu a lly b e n e fi c i a l to b o t h parties. CHAIRPERSON : Do you have any recollection w h e th e r b e fo r e r e s p o n d i n g t o t h i s l e t te r fr o m M in is t e r B a r b r a H o g a n M s C a r o lu s a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d m a y h a v e d is c u s s e d w i th y o u th e l e tt e r fr o m M s B a r b r a H o g a n a s Mi n is t e r a n d t h a t i n f o r m u la t in g th e r e s p o n s e s h e 20 m i g h t n o t j u s t h a v e r e l ie d o n w h a t w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e th e B o a r d b u t s h e m i g h t h a v e r e li e d o n h e r d ir e c t c o m m u n ic a ti o n w i th y o u . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o C h a ir m y te s ti m o n y I m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t M s C a r o l u s w a s a c t u a ll y v e r y g o o d in s h a r i n g i n f o r m a t io n w i t h b o th m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e B o a r d , s o w h e n th e l e t te r h a d – o r c o m m u n ic a ti o n h a d c o m e t h r o u g h f r o m M i n is t e r H o g a n i t ’s in f o r m a t io n Page 106 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h a t s h e w o u l d h a v e s h a r e d a t t h e B o a r d a n d i t’s in f o r m a ti o n t h a t s h e w o u ld h a v e a c tu a l ly s h a r e d w i th m e a s w e ll , w h ic h is w h y a s I in d i c a t e t h a t i t i s n o t s u r p r is i n g t h a t t h e b u lk o f h e r r e s p o n s e is b a s ic a l ly b a s e d on what was submitted by management to the Board. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t y o u h a d s a i d t o h e r, o k a y, t h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : C h a ir I a m b e i n g i n f o r m e d th a t f o r t h e s a k e o f a c c u r a c y M s C a r o l u s d id n ’ t t a l k a b o u t th e s p e c i fic c o r r e s p o n d e n c e e x c h a n g e d b u t c e r t a i n l y s p o k e t o t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s as such. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : Ms Mz i m e l a those two c o m m u n ic a ti o n s b e i n g t h e e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n M s C a r o l u s a n d M in is t e r B a r b r a H o g a n i s th a t n o t a t y p ic a l e x a m p le o f t h e p r o p e r p r o t o c o ls if engagement within SAA? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : M y r e s p o n s e to t h a t w o u l d b e y e s , b e c a u s e M s C a r o lu s l e t te r o r r e s p o n s e i s n o t v e r y c l e a r, b u t I b e li e v e t h a t p a r t o f t h e r e s p o n s e , a n d I w is h i t w a s c le a r t o o n e c o u l d c o n fir m t h a t, t h a t p a r t o f h e r r e s p o n s e w o u ld h a v e b e e n fir s tly a s I in d i c a t e d t o u p d a t e t h e M i n is t e r in t e r ms o f w h e r e w e a r e , b u t 20 e m p h a s iz i n g o n c e a g a i n t h a t t h e M in is t e r s h o u l d a ll o w J e t A ir w a y s t o s p e a k d ir e c tl y w it h th e o r g a n i s a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : A n d t h a t i t w a s n o t r i g h t f o r Mr N a r e s h to b e t r y i n g t o g o v ia th e M i n is te r t o d is c u s s i s s u e s p e r ta in i n g to SAA. Page 107 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : At page 16 paragraph 38, when you c o n s i d e r e d t h e l e tt e r y o u w e r e i n f o r m e d t h a t M s C a r o lu s i n fo r m e d t h e M i n is t e r th a t S A m a n a g e m e n t i n c lu d in g y o u r s e l f h a d m e t M r N a r e s h G o y e l l t o d is c u s s h o w t h e t w o e n t it i e s c a n r e a c h a m u t u a ll y b e n e fi c i a l a r r a n g e m e n t. D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t t o t h a t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : M y o n ly c o m m e n t w h ic h is c o n ta in e d i n m y te s ti m o n y is t h a t I c a n c o n fir m t h a t t h e e x e c u ti v e s w e r e a lr e a d y m e e t in g w i th J e t A ir w a y s , th e o n ly t h in g th a t I w a s h i g h l i g h t in g 10 is t h a t it m a y b e c o r r e c t t o s a y I m e t w it h M r G o y e ll p r i o r t o s u b s e q u e n t m e e ti n g s th a t w e h a d a t th e M i n i s t r y. I k n e w t h e g e n t le m e n , p r o f e s s i o n a lly, b u t I d o n o t r e c a ll . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d n e t m e t h i m ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s , j a . CHAIRPERSON : Mmm, mmm. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o a t w h a t m e e t in g d i d y o u fo r m a l ly meet him? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I meet Mr – so I knew p r o f e s s i o n a lly, b e c a u s e o f t h e v a r i o u s a v i a ti o n f o r u m s th a t w e ’r e b o t h 20 a tt e n d e d o r o r w e r e p a r t o f , b u t I m e t h i m f o r m a l ly i n r e l a t i o n to S A A i n a m e e t in g t h a t w a s h e l d w i t h t h e t h e n M i n i s t e r G i g a b a . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d is i t c o r r e c t th a t t h a t m e e ti n g i s w h a t to o k p l a c e o n t h e 1 0 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 11 ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u g e t t o t h a t m e e t in g I a m g o in g t o t a k e y o u Page 108 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 b a c k t o s o m e t h in g t h a t w e d e a lt w i t h s o m e ti m e b a c k , b u t I n e e d t a s k y o u s o m e t h in g . W h e n y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i t h t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t h a d b e e n m a d e t o F r ic k t h a t th e M u m b a i , J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i r o u t e b e c l o s e d , y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g in r e la t io n t o – y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g w h e n y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t y o u r t e a m r e v i e w i n g a n d lo o k in g a t t h e w h o l e is s u e , a n d y o u s a i d m a y b e a d e c is i o n h a d a lr e a d y b e e n t a k e n o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t , i s my r e c o ll e c ti o n c o r r e c t o f w h a t y o u s a i d ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ev e n I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r my e x a c t w o r d s I m e a n C h a ir . . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s o m e th in g t o t h a t e ff e c t . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s , s o m e t h i n g t o th a t e ff e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d a r e y o u a b l e t o e l a b o r a t e o n w h y y o u th i n k s o a n d w h e t h e r i t w a s i n f a c t s o , o r w h e th e r – w h a t th e in d ic a t i o n s w e r e w h ic h m a d e y o u th i n k m a y b e a d e c i s i o n h a d b e e n ta k e n s o m e w h e r e a n d w h a t t h a t d e c i s i o n w a s . I’ m s o r r y t o t a k e y o u b a c k b u t I t h i n k i t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t t o e s ta b lis h th a t . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : C h a ir I d o n ’ t b e li e v e th a t i t is a c t u a ll y ta k i n g m e b a c k b e c a u s e I p r o b a b ly m a d e t h a t c o m m e n t in r e l a ti o n t o t h e m e e ti n g . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u a r e s t il l g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t i s t h i s 1 0 t h o f J a n u a r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : O f 2 0 11 . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y, m a y b e t h e n y o u w i ll t a l k a b o u t it m o r e w h e n y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h a m e e ti n g , w o u l d t h a t b e m o r e c o n v e n i e n t ? Page 109 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : N o C h a ir I c a n . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n d e a l w i th i t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ve r y s p e c i fic a l ly t h a t a t th a t m e e ti n g . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) CHAIRPERSON : Ja, yes. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : . . . w h e r e Mr R a j e s h G o y e ll w a s a c t u a ll y p r e s e n t w h e n h e w a s r a i s i n g a n is s u e a s to w h y S A A w a s r e fu s i n g t o m o v e o ff th e r o u t e a n d i n h is v ie w t h e d e c i s i o n h a d a lr e a d y b e e n ta k e n a n d w h e n I t h e n p u s h e d t o tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d w h o a t S A A 10 h a d a g r e e d t o m o v e o ff t h e r o u t e h is r e s p o n s e w a s . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e t h e C E O ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I was the CEO then but I was tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d w h o t h e n h a d g i v e n h i m a c o m m e n t t h a t S A A w o u ld w i t h d r a w fr o m th e r o u t e . H e m e n ti o n e d t h e n a m e o f C h r is S m y t h e , y e s , s o h e n c e .. .( i n te r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, n o t h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : C h a ir w e n e e d t o d e a l w it h t h is m e e ti n g i n a l it t le b i t m o r e d e t a i l, I d o n o t e t h e t i m e t h o u g h , b u t I a m – w h ic h i s . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h i n k w e s t il l h a v e f iv e m i n u te s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : F iv e t o , I’ m h a p p y t o p r o c e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t ’s u s e t h e f iv e m in u t e s ja . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M s M z i m e l a s o y o u ’ v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g t h a t t o o k p l a c e o n t h e 1 0 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 11 , h o w d i d th is m e e ti n g c o m e a b o u t ? Page 110 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h e r e q u e s t f o r t h e m e e ti n g w a s s e n t t o t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d , M s C h e r y l C a r o l u s , f o r m y s e l f a n d h e r t o c o m e t o a m e e ti n g a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic E n t e r p r is e s t o m e e t w i t h t h e M i n i s te r, t h e t h e n M in is t e r M a l u s i G ig a b a , i n o r d e r t o p r o v i d e h i m w i t h a n u p d a te r e l a ti n g to t h e M u m b a i o p e r a t io n . CHAIRPERSON : S o t h is w a s a t a ti m e w h e n M in is t e r B a r b r a H o g a n h a d l e f t a n d M in is t e r G i g a b a w a s t h e M i n is t e r. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S h e h a s n o w l e f t , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o t h e i n v it a ti o n c a m e a n d u n f o r t u n a t e ly M s C a r o l u s w a s n o t a b l e to a t t e n d th e m e e ti n g , s o s h e r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t I a t t e n d t h e m e e t in g w i t h t h e t h e n C h a ir o f t h e a u d i t c o m m i t t e e , t h e n , n o w s in c e d e c e a s e d Z a k e la S i th o le . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: Th a n k y o u , a n d d i d y o u d o a n y p r e p a r a ti o n f o r t h is m e e ti n g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s I d i d . S o w h a t I d i d w a s t h a t I h a d a c t u a l ly p r e p a r e d a m e m o r a n d u m o f t h e is s u e s , b e c a u s e th e y t o ld u s i t w a s a b o u t M u m b a i I h a d p r e p a r e d a m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h a c t u a l ly h i g h l ig h te d w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d t o d a te w i t h r e g a r d to t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p 20 b e t w e e n o u r s e l v e s a n d J e t A ir w a y s a n d w h a t w e r e th e is s u e s t h a t w e w e r e s t il l c o n s i d e r i n g w i t h J e t A ir w a y s a n d I s e n t t h a t m e m o t o t h e D G b e c a u s e t h a t w a s m y c o u n t e r p a r t , b u t I h a d t h e o p p o r tu n i t y a s w e ll t o g o t h r o u g h th a t w i t h t h e th e n M in is t e r p r i o r t o t h e m e e ti n g t h a t w e w e r e c a l l e d f o r. C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u c a n s t il l r e m e m b e r h o w l o n g b e f o r e t h e m e e ti n g Page 111 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 d i d y o u s e n d t h e m e m o to t h e D G ? A f e w d a y s , o n e d a y ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I d o n ’t r e m e m b e r C h a ir b u t i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n v e r y s o o n a f t e r g e t ti n g t h e r e q u e s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : W h e n y o u a r r iv e d a t t h e m e e t i n g fir s tly w h e r e d i d th e m e e ti n g t a k e p l a c e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e in P r e t o r ia a t t h e o ff ic e s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s . 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMB ER : And what happened when you arrived a t t h e m e e t in g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : W e a r r iv e d a t t h e m e e ti n g a n d w e w e r e t o l d f ir s t ly to l d t o w a it b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e g o i n g t o b e o th e r p e o p l e w h o w o u l d b e jo i n i n g u s a s p a r t o f t h e m e e ti n g . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : And who informed you of that MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I b e l ie v e i t w a s t h e M in is t e r ’s s p e c i a l a d v i s o r, Mr M a h l a n g u , a n d s o t h a t ’s w h a t I m e a n w e w e r e a c t u a ll y t o ld . I t is a ls o a t th is p o i n t w h e r e t h e M i n is te r th e n a s k e d f o r a p r e - b r i e fi n g a s w e l l, a n d w e w e n t t h r o u g h , to t a k e h i m t h r o u g h w h a t I 20 h a d a c tu a lly o u tli n e d i n t h e m e m o r a n d u m . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a ft e r y o u h a d a r r iv e d a n d b e f o r e th e m e e ti n g c o u l d s t a r t t h e M i n is t e r a s k e d y o u t o t a k e h i m t h r o u g h w h a t t h e is s u e s w e r e and so on and so on. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 112 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i s w h a t y o u d i d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Did you consider in your c o m m u n ic a ti o n s w i t h t h e M in is t e r w h e th e r o r n o t J e t A i r w a y s w a s a p a r t n e r to b e tr u s t e d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I d i d r a is e c o n c e r n s i n t h e m e m o , s o o n e I f e lt t h a t t h e r e w a s v a l u e b e c a u s e o f t h e n e tw o r k t h a t t h e y h a d o u t o f M u m b a i t o p a r tn e r u p w i th t h e m t o p r o v id e u s w i t h t h a t a d d i ti o n a l 10 li n k i n to I n d ia , b u t i n t h a t s a m e m e m o I a ls o h ig h l i g h t e d t h a t I h a d s o m e c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e w a y i n w h ic h J e t A ir w a y s t e n d e d to c o n d u c t t h e m s e l v e s a n d v e r y s p e c if ic a l ly th a t I h a d a c t u a l ly d is c o v e r e d a s w e ll t h a t t h e y o w e d S A A m o n e y w h ic h h a d n o t b e e n p a id , a s o f th e d a t e a t w h ic h w e w e r e g o i n g t o h a v e th i s m e e ti n g a n d t h i s p e r t a i n s , a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w t h e e x a c t d e t a il s b u t t h e r e w a s a n a ir c r a f t th a t h a d b e e n l e a s e d t o t h e m a n d th e y h a d n o t m a d e fu ll p a y m e n t o n t h a t , s o i t ’s o n e o f th e it e m s t h a t I h i g h l ig h t e d . CHAIRPERSON : Wa s y o u r b r i e fi n g t o M i n is t e r G i g a b a e v e r y m u c h a l o n g th e li n e s o f t h e m e m o th a t c o n t a i n e d y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o t h e 20 Board? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h o w a s a ll p r e s e n t a t th e ti m e t h a t y o u h a d t h e d e b r i e fi n g s e s s io n w i t h t h e M i n is t e r ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I c a n n o t r e c a ll e x a c t ly w h o c a m e Page 113 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 in t o th e m e e ti n g , I d o n o t k n o w t h a t w e w e n t i n to t h e M i n is te r ’s o ffi c e t o p r o v i d e t h e b r i e fi n g , s o M r S i t h o l e w o u ld h a v e b e e n w i th m e a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e , b u t w h a t I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r is w h o m a d e u p t h e te a m f r o m t h e D P E s i d e w h e n w e g a v e M in is t e r th a t b r ie f in g . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Wa s t h e M i n is t e r ’s a d v is o r t h e r e , p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e t in g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e M i n is t e r ’s a d v i s o r w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e ti n g , b u t I ’ m s a y in g w h a t I c a n n o t r e c a l l is w h o w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e b r i e f i n g p r i o r t o t h e m e e t in g . 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Thank you. Yo u m e n t io n e d t h e n t h a t y o u w e r e w a it i n g f o r .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s m i g h t b e t h e c o n v e n ie n t t i m e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : W e w i ll t a k e t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l r e s u m e a t t w o o ’c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S CHAIRPERSON : Are you ready? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s w e a r e C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Let us proceed. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : B e f o r e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t M s M z i m e la y o u w e r e e x p la i n i n g t h e c o m m i s s i o n a b o u t t h e m e e t i n g t h a t y o u a tt e n d e d w i t h th e t h e n M i n i s t e r M a l u s i G i g a b a o n t h e 1 0 J a n u a r y 2 0 11 a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r b e f o r e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t y o u s p o k e a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t y o u h a d d e b r i e f e d th e M i n i s te r i n r e l a ti o n t o th e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u Page 114 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 h a d p r e p a r e d o n t h e to p i c o f th e M u m b a i r o u t e , is t h a t r i g h t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s y o u h a d th e – t h e M in is t e r h a d a s k e d f o r a b r i e fi n g a n d y o u g a v e h i m a b r i e f i n g w h a t I w o u l d lik e y o u to t e ll m e i s w h e t h e r i n r e s p o n s e t o th e b r i e fi n g th a t y o u g a v e h i m w h ic h y o u s a i d w a s v e r y m u c h in l i n e w i t h t h e m e m o r a n d u m th a t h a d b e e n s e n t to th e b o a r d a b o u t t h e M u m b a i r o u te w h e th e r t h e r e w e r e a n y a s p e c ts o f w h a t y o u h a d t o s a y t o h i m w i t h w h i c h t h e M i n i s t e r d is a g r e e d o r a p p e a r e d to d is a g r e e o r n o t t o b e c o m e [i n d is t in c t] a b o u t 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : N o C h a ir h e j u s t a c c e p t e d t h e b r i e fi n g a s [ in d is ti n c t ] . [CHAIR SPEAKING OVER WITNESS] C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e – h e d id n o t e x p r e s s a n y d i ff e r e n t v i e w s t o t h e v ie w s y o u – t o th e c o m m e n ts a n d v i e w s y o u e x p r e s s e d ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I n d e e d C h a ir h e d id n o t e x p r e s s a n y v i e w w h a ts o e v e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a ts o e v e r. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : E x c e p t to s a y t h a t le t u s j u s t w a i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h e i t h e r w a y. 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : F o r t h e m e e t in g t o s ta r t – y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : And so we on page 18… CHAIRPERSON : I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y M s S e p t e m b e r. D id a l o t o f ti m e l a p s e b e t w e e n t h e e n d o f t h e b r i e f i n g a n d th e a c tu a l m e e t in g w i t h t h e r e s u l t t h a t i f h e h a d a n y is s u e s w i th w h a t y o u h a d s a id h e c o u ld Page 115 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 h a v e – t h e r e w a s ti m e f o r h i m t o r a i s e t h o s e is s u e s w it h r e g a r d t o th e b r i e fi n g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I n d e e d C h a i r I th i n k th a t i n m y a ffi d a v i t I a c t u a l ly m e n ti o n e d th a t w e w a i te d f o r a v e r y l o n g t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Fo r t h e r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s o f J e t A ir w a y s to a r r iv e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : F o r t h e m e e t in g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s f in e . T h a n k y o u . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d o n t h a t p o i n t o f w a i t in g h o w l o n g d i d y o u w a i t fo r t h e J e t A ir w a y s r e p r e s e n ta ti v e t o a r r iv e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A g a in b e c a u s e o b v io u s ly I w a s n o t w a t c h in g t h e ti m e a c c u r a t e ly b u t i t w a s a g o o d o v e r t w o h o u r s i n m y v ie w t h a t w e w a i t e d f o r th e m t o a r r i v e a n d d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d o f w a i ti n g a n d tr y in g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y w e w e r e w a i ti n g f o r s o l o n g w e th e n o v e r h e a r d M r M a h l a n g u s a y i n g h e J e t A ir w a y s r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s w e r e a c t u a ll y o n t h e ir w a y fly i n g fr o m C a p e To w n t o J o h a n n e s b u r g o n th e ir private jet. 20 CHAIRPERSON : And when you say you waited for about two hours w o u ld t h a t b e fr o m t h e ti m e y o u a r r iv e d o r th e ti m e a f t e r y o u h a d fi n i s h e d th e b r i e fi n g o f th e M i n is t e r ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : F o r m e C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r t h e d i ffe r e n c e m i g h t n o t b e m u c h ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : J a . F o r m e C h a ir I c o u n t t h e tw o Page 116 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 h o u r s fr o m t h e t i m e a t w h ic h w e e x p e c t e d t h e m e e ti n g to s t a r t . CHAIRPERSON: YEs. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : To w h e n i t a c t u a l ly s t a r te d . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s . What was the time that it had – you had been t o l d t h e m e e t i n g w o u ld s t a r t ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : I cannot recall. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t r e c a ll ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Recall yes. CHAIRPERSON : 10 Ye s b u t o b v i o u s l y y o u – o r p r o b a b ly y o u a r r iv e d o n ti m e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : In your experience Ms Mzimela and y o u r p a r ti c u l a r e n g a g e m e n ts w i th M i n is t r ie s o v e r t h e y e a r s w a s i t n o r m a l f o r a M i n is te r ’s o ffi c e to w a i t t h a t lo n g f o r a n y o n e t o a t t e n d a m e e ti n g w it h h i m o r h e r ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o C h a ir t h e r e a s o n w h y I a c t u a l ly r e m e m b e r t h a t w e w a i te d f o r s o l o n g is b e c a u s e fo r m e i t s e e m e d v e r y u n u s u a l t h a t w e w e r e w a i t in g fo r s o lo n g f o r p e o p l e t o a r r i v e e s p e c i a lly 20 b e c a u s e it a l s o h a d a d ir e c t i m p a c t e v e n o n my d ia r y b a s e d o n w h a t w e h a d b e e n – w e l l t h e ti m e t h a t h a d b e e n s t ip u l a t e d f o r t h e m e e t in g . I h a d w o r k e d o u t th a t I w o u ld p r o b a b ly b e d o n e a n d a b le to t a k e a s u b s e q u e n t m e e t in g o n m y r e t u r n t o t h e o ffi c e . A n d t h a t i s w h y d e s p i t e it b e in g s o m a n y y e a r s a g o I r e c a l l y o u k n o w a t th a t p o i n t i n ti m e f o r m e I w a s q u i te s u r p r is e d t h a t w e w e r e w a i ti n g a s l o n g a s w e d id f o r Page 117 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h e s e i n d iv i d u a l s t o a r r iv e . A n d i n d e e d i n p a r tic u la r r e fe r e n c e t o s a y t h a t e v e n f o r th e M in is t e r to a c c o m m o d a t e s u c h a l o n g w a i t. CHAIRPERSON : W e l l p r i o r t o y o u r c o m i n g t o th e m e e ti n g w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h o w o u ld f o r m p a r t o f t h i s m e e t in g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o C h a ir a s I r e c a l l w e h a d n o id e a t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e e x t e r n a l i n d iv i d u a ls . O u r u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t w e w e r e m e e ti n g w i th t h e M in is t e r i n o r d e r to d is c u s s t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i r o u te . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n y o u a r r iv e d t h e M i n is te r w a s th e r e a n d w h o e ls e w a s t h e r e a p a r t f r o m M r [i n d i s t i n c t ] t h a t c a m e w it h y o u ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : W h e n w e a r r iv e d – M i n is t e r w a s t h e r e – th e M i n i s t e r ’s a d v is o r w a s t h e r e a n d a t th e p o i n t a t w h ic h w e t h e n s t a r te d th e m e e ti n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a d v is o r b e i n g M r M a h l a n g u . MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is Mr Mahlangu. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a d o y o u r e m e m b e r h i s n a m e ? O r n o t r e a l ly ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S iy a b o n g a M a h l a n g u . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Siyabonga Mahlangu. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s i t i s M r S iy a b o n g a M a h la n g u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t y e s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o M r S iy a b o n g a M a h l a n g u w a s a ls o y o u k n o w p r e s e n t a n d t h e r e w e r e o th e r o ff ic ia ls o f D P E t h a t w e r e present. Page 118 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : Of the department? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Of the department yes. So by the ti m e w e g o i n t o th e m e e t i n g I d o a c t u a l ly s h a r e t h a t f o r t h e o n e s t h a t I a c t u a ll y r e m e m b e r q u i t e s p e c i fi c a lly b e i n g p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e ti n g is t h e M i n is t e r, i t i s t h e D e p u t y M in is t e r a t t h e t i m e , M r B e n M a r t i n s , i t i s Mr S iy a b o n g a M a h la n g u , m y s e l f a n d M r Z a k h e le S i th o le . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t is w h e n th e m e e ti n g a c t u a l ly g o t t o s t a r t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h o s e w e r e t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e p r e s e n t . 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : D i d y o u r e c e iv e a n y p h o n e c a l l d u r i n g y o u r w a i t Ms M z i m e l a ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s s o w h i le w e w e r e w a it i n g f o r t h e m e e ti n g t o s t a r t I t h e n g e t a p h o n e c a l l f r o m t h e o ffi c e a n d th e p h o n e c a ll is fr o m M s A d v o c a t e C o e tz e e w h o is a li t tl e b i t p e r t u r b e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t t o p u t – t o s a y – a ls o g iv e u s h e r n a m e – is it S u s a n , Ms S u s a n … MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 O h o k a y I r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m Advocate Sandra C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : C o e tz e e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : J u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d C h a ir i t i s S a n d r a J u l i a H e s t e r C o e tz e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . Page 119 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA M ZIMELA : And who at the time was employed a t S A A a s t h e h e a d o f le g a l – h e a d o f t h e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t . So she c a l ls m e t h a t t h e r e is a g e n t le m a n w h o is s u p p o s e d ly in p o s s e s s i o n o f a n a g r e e m e n t a n d h e is d e m a n d i n g t h a t t h is a g r e e m e n t b e s i g n e d a n d t h is a g r e e m e n t p e r t a in s t o S A A a g r e e i n g t o t e r m i n a t e t h e ir o p e r a ti o n o n t h e M u m b a i r o u te . Th e n t h i s a c t u a l ly s u r p r is e d m e a n d I s a id I a m n o t – I a m a b i t c o n fu s e d a s t o w h a t s h e i s t a lk i n g a b o u t b u t b e c a u s e w e w e r e s ti ll w a i ti n g f o r th e m e e t in g t o s t a r t I s a i d lo o k I a m r e a l ly c o n fu s e d t h e m e e ti n g h a s n o t s t a r t e d . 10 W e h a v e a lr e a d y – I h a v e a lr e a d y b r i e fe d o r my s e l f a n d Mr S i t h o l e h a v e a lr e a d y b r i e f e d th e M i n is t e r s o t h is is n e w s t o m e . S o m y s i m p l e s u g g e s ti o n to h e r w a s t h a t l o o k t r y a n d fi n d a w a y t o s t a ll b e c a u s e I a m r e a lly c o n fu s e d a n d m a y b e a f t e r t h is m e e t i n g I w il l h a v e a b e t t e r s e n s e a s to w h a t i s g o i n g o n a n d w h y w o u ld t h is g e n t le m a n b e u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e r e is a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t S A A s h o u l d b e s i g n i n g t o c o n fi r m th a t t h e y w o u l d t e r m in a ti n g t h e r o u t e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d fr o m w h ic h c o m p a n y w a s th is p a r t ic u l a r g e n t le m a n ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : H e w a s fr o m J e t A ir w a y s . H e w a s 20 a J e t A ir w a y s r e p r e s e n t a t iv e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t w a s th e s ig n i f ic a n c e a b o u t th e c a l l th a t y o u r e c e iv e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l l e t u s j u s t g e t h is n a m e i f y o u w e r e to ld . A t t h a t s t a g e y o u w e r e n o t to l d w h o t h e p e r s o n w a s , t h e n a m e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : U n f o r t u n a te ly I w a s n o t t o l d . Page 120 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : W h a t w a s th e n a m e o f t h e g e n tl e m a n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ex c e p t fo r him being a r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o f J e t Ai r w a y s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d C h a ir t h e a ffi d a v i t o f A d v o c a t e C o e tz e e w h i c h a p p e a r s u n d e r Ta b 2 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e w e s a w i n th e m o r n i n g . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : At page 220 the version of events as c o r r o b o r a t e d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 a n d 1 8 a s i n d ic a te d b y t h is w it n e s s a n d w i t h y o u r le a v e I a m h a p p y to r e a d t h a t p a r t i n to t h e r e c o r d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o i t i s n o t n e c e s s a r y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f s o n e c e s s a r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a ju s t c o n ti n u e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t w a s th e s i g n i fic a n c e o f t h e c a ll 20 t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d f r o m A d v o c a te C o e t z e e a n d p a r ti c u la r ly t h e ti m i n g o f t h e c a ll i n y o u r v i e w ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A s a l r e a d y i n d ic a t e d C h a ir I f o u n d it v e r y s tr a n g e t h a t t h e r e i s a J e t A ir w a y s r e p r e s e n ta t iv e t h a t i s p r e s e n t in g a d o c u m e n t o r tr y in g t o p r e s e n t a d o c u m e n t t o S A A t o s i g n a n d t h i s i s t h e t i m e w h e n – i f t h e m e e t i n g h a d s t a r t e d o b v i o u s ly t h e Page 121 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 m e e ti n g w o u l d h a v e e n d e d p o s s i b l y a t t h a t p o in t in t i m e a t w h i c h h e is p u t t in g a c a ll t h r o u g h t o S A A t o s a y I h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t n e e d s t o be signed. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a ls o e v e n t h a t th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n q u i te s tr a n g e e v e n i f a n a g r e e m e n t h a d b e e n r e a c h e d in t h e d i s c u s s io n s a t t h e m e e ti n g f o r th e r e to b e – fo r o n e o f t h e p a r ti e s t o h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t h a s b e e n ty p e d a n d t h a t is r e a d y t o b e s ig n e d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 B u t b e fo r e w e m o v e f o r w a r d c a n I a s k w h e th e r – d u r i n g t h e t i m e w h e n y o u w e r e w a i ti n g b e fo r e t h e m e e t in g c o u l d s t a r t a n d a f t e r y o u h a d b r i e f e d th e M i n is t e r w h e t h e r y o u a t a n y s t a g e s o u g h t t o fi n d o u t w h y a r e w e b e i n g m a d e t o w a i t s o lo n g ? O r a n y t h i n g to t h a t e ffe c t e it h e r fr o m t h e M i n is t e r o r f r o m h is s t a ff ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I d o r e c a l l th a t M r S it h o l e d i d a c t u a ll y a s k t h e q u e s t i o n t o s a y h o w lo n g a r e w e s ti ll g o in g to b e w a i ti n g b e c a u s e o b v io u s ly h e a ls o h a d m e e ti n g s th a t w e r e p l a n n e d . A n d w e w e r e t o l d n o t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o f J e t A ir w a y s th a t w e w e r e w a i ti n g fo r a r e o n t h e ir w a y a n d t h e y w i ll b e t h e r e s h o r tly. A n d t h a t is t h e o n ly r e s p o n s e t h a t w e a c t u a l ly r e c e iv e d . 20 CHAIRPERSON : W e r e y o u s u r p r is e d t h a t s u d d e n ly th e r e w e r e to b e o th e r p e o p l e a t t e n d in g t h e m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a d n o t b e e n t o l d a b o u t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s w e w e r e a c tu a lly s u r p r is e d i n t h a t i n c o m in g t o t h e m e e t i n g w e d i d n o t k n o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e g o in g t o b e o th e r p e o p l e j o in i n g t h e m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 122 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : B u t w e a lr e a d y k n e w t h a t t h e r e w o u ld b e p e o p le c o m i n g t h r o u g h b e c a u s e a f t e r th e b r i e fi n g w i th t h e M i n is t e r t h e M i n i s t e r d i d p o s e t h e q u e s ti o n t o s a y, d o w e k n o w, t o h is t e a m s o h o w l o n g a r e t h e s e g e n t l e m e n s t il l g o i n g to b e b e f o r e th e y a r r iv e ? CHAIRPERSON : O h b u t t h a t w a s th e fir s t ti m e y o u g o t a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e o t h e r p e o p l e c o m i n g o r y o u h a d a lr e a d y ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : N o C h a ir I th i n k w h e n w e g o t I m e a n t o D P E a n d w e w e r e t h e n – w e ll t h e f ir s t t h i n g w a s t o – w a s 10 a s k e d to b r ie f t h e M i n is te r b u t b y t h e t i m e w e w a lk e d i n t o b r i e f t h e M i n is t e r th e r e w a s a l r e a d y a n i n d i c a t io n t h a t t h is m e e ti n g w a s n o t j u s t g o i n g t o b e b e tw e e n o u r s e l v e s a n d t h e M i n is t e r b u t th e r e w e r e o t h e r in d i v i d u a ls t h a t w e r e g o i n g t o b e j o i n in g u s . H e n c e t h e p r e b r i e fi n g a n d n o t g o i n g s t r a ig h t i n to t h e m e e t in g k in d o f s t u ff . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. O k a y. o k a y. A n d t h e M i n is t e r d u r in g t h a t p e r i o d o f w a i ti n g w a s th e M i n i s t e r a w a y fr o m w h e r e y o u w e r e a n d y o u r t e a m a n d e v e r y b o d y w a s in h i s o ff ic e o r w a s e v e r y b o d y ju s t w a i t in g w h e r e th e m e e ti n g w a s s u p p o s e d t o t a k e p la c e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 T h e m e e t in g – w e b r i e f e d in h is o ffic e a n d t h e n w e – o n c e w e h a d c o n c l u d e d th e b r i e fi n g w e w e n t b a c k in t o th e b o a r d r o o m t h a t w a s g o in g t o b e u t ili s e d f o r th e m e e ti n g a n d th e M i n is t e r r e m a in e d i n h is o ff ic e . CHAIRPERSON : A n d w h e n y o u w e r e i n t h e b o a r d r o o m w e r e h is s t a ff w i t h y o u o r n o t r e a ll y ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : H is s t a ff w e r e t h e r e i n a n d o u t . Page 123 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , ja . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Because there had been an e x p e c ta t io n th a t th e m e e ti n g w o u l d a lr e a d y h a v e s ta r t e d o r b e s t a r ti n g at that point in time. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d w e a r e n o w o n p a g e 1 9 fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 6 o f y o u r – o f t h e b u n d l e . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : So… ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : 10 P l e a s e t a k e u s th r o u g h t h e m e e ti n g o n t h e a r r iv a l o f t h e J e t A ir w a y s r e p r e s e n t a tiv e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : O k a y. S o e v e n tu a lly t h e J e t A ir w a y s r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s a r r iv e d a n d – a n d t h e te a m w a s a c t u a ll y I m e a n l e d b y M r G o y a l w h o I h a v e a l r e a d y a c t u a ll y m e n t io n e d a lr e a d y a s E x e c u t iv e C h a ir a n d C E O o f J e t A ir w a y s a n d I d o r e c a ll t h a t t h e r e w a s d e f in i te ly o n e o t h e r I m e a n r e p r e s e n t a t iv e t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n m o r e t h a n o n e a t th a t m e e ti n g . A n d w e a l l t h e n c o n v e n e d in t o t h e m e e ti n g a n d a s i n d ic a te d p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e t in g i s M r S i t h o l e a n d m y s e l f , t h e M i n is t e r, th e D e p u ty M i n i s te r, B e n M a r t in s , M r M a h l a n g u a n d o t h e r D P E r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s a ls o p r e s e n t i n th a t m e e t in g . 20 Then t he meeting a c t u a ll y s t a r ts a n d M r G o y a l c o m m e n c e s t h e m e e ti n g b y s p e n d i n g a l o t o f ti m e t a l k i n g a b o u t h i ms e l f y o u k n o w a n d h o w i m p o r t a n t h e is a n d a ll o f th e t h i n g s I m e a n t h a t h e h a s a c t u a ll y d o n e I m e a n i n a v i a ti o n . S o t h a t i s t h e f ir s t ti m e I m e a n w h e n h e g e ts a li t tl e b i t a n n o y e d w i t h m e b e c a u s e I r e s p o n d b e c a u s e i t is g o i n g o n a n d o n a n d I s a y y o u k n o w w e d o k n o w y o u a n d I k n o w y o u p r o f e s s i o n a ll y b e c a u s e w e a r e p a r t o f t h e Page 124 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 s a m e s o r t o f a v i a ti o n c o m m i t t e e s o r fo r u m s . H e th e n g o e s o n to b a s ic a lly r a is e t h e is s u e th a t h e h a s c o m e t o d is c u s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t j u s t b e f o r e y o u g e t t o t h a t . Ev e r y b o d y i s a t t h e b o a r d r o o m n o w a n d th e m e e ti n g is a b o u t t o s ta r t . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is c h a i r i n g t h e m e e ti n g ? W h o w a s c h a ir i n g th e m e e ti n g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o t h e c h a i r o f t h e m e e ti n g is t h e n Mr Gigaba. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y d o e s h e – w a s h e t h e o n e t o s ta r t in t h e n o r m a l w a y a m e e ti n g w o u l d s t a r t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h is m e e ti n g i s t o d is c u s s t h is is s u e w e h a v e s o a n d s o a n d s o a n d s o M r G o y a l w il l y o u s ta r t o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I n d e e d C h a ir a s c h a ir o f th e m e e ti n g h e d o e s o b v i o u s l y w e lc o m e a ll th e p e o p l e p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e ti n g . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d i n d ic a te s th a t t h e r e h a s b e e n a r e q u e s t t o h a v e t h e d i s c u s s i o n a n d t h a t t h e m e e ti n g is t o d is c u s s t h e 20 J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i r o u te a t w h ic h p o i n t th e n h a n d s o v e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : To M r G o y a l . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : To M r G o y a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o t h is is w h e r e t h e n h e t a k e s o v e r. Page 125 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Yo u m a y c o n t i n u e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In b e g i n n i n g t o i n tr o d u c e h i m s e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Yo u k n o w a n d h is o r g a n is a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th e n y o u m a y c o n ti n u e . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s . H e th e n a c t u a ll y c o n ti n u e s h e s p e a k s f a s t e r t h a n I d o s o h e th e n c o n t in u e s t o t h e n t a lk s p e c i f ic a l ly a b o u t th e a g e n d a i t e m o f t h e d a y w h ic h i s t h e M u m b a i r o u te a n d in d i c a t e s h is u n h a p p i n e s s a b o u t t h e d e l a y i n t h e d e c is io n b e i n g t a k e n 10 a n d i n h is v i e w a g a i n e v e r y o n e i s w a s ti n g t i m e i n th a t S A A s h o u l d a lr e a d y h a v e c lo s e d o ff t h i s r o u t e b e c a u s e h is a i r li n e i s b e tt e r p l a c e d t o b e s e r v i n g t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i r o u t e a n d h e is q u i t e s u r p r i s e d t h a t w e a r e ju s t w a s ti n g t i m e a n d n o t g e t ti n g o ff t h e r o u t e a n d h e w o u l d r e a l ly li k e t o a c t u a ll y s u g g e s t t h a t w e d o s o a n d d o s o y o u k n o w I m e a n a s q u ic k ly a s p o s s i b l e a n d y o u k n o w s t o p w a s ti n g t i m e . A t t h a t p o i n t I then respond because… CHAIRPERSON : B e fo r e y o u r e s p o n d e d d i d t h i s c o m e a c r o s s l ik e a d e m a n d a s o p p o s e d to a r e q u e s t o r a p r o p o s a l t h a t y o u c lo s e o ff t h is route, how did it come across? 20 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : To m e I s a y a s f a r a s I w a s c o n c e r n e d h e w a s u s i n g a v e r y i n s tr u c t iv e t o n e a s i f a c tu a l ly – m a y b e t h e w a y a n d I h o p e n o t – n o t a l l C E O ’s s p e a k t o t h e ir E X C O ’s l ik e t h a t b u t y o u k n o w h e is t h e r e , h e i s t e l li n g u s t h i s is w h a t s h o u l d b e h a p p e n in g , w e a r e w a s ti n g t i m e c a n w e a c t u a ll y ju s t m o v e o n a n d d o w h a t n e e d s to b e d o n e . Page 126 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y j a c o n t in u e . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : A n d b e c a u s e h e th e n m a k e s t h e p o i n t t h a t a s f a r a s h e is c o n c e r n e d a n y w a y th is d e c i s i o n w a s l o n g m a d e a n d t h e p r o b l e m i s m o r e w i t h t h i s c u r r e n t m a n a g e m e n t t h a t is r e fu s i n g t o i m p l e m e n t a d e c is io n t h a t h a s a lr e a d y b e e n ta k e n . I t is a t t h is p o i n t a t w h i c h I i n te r j e c t t o a c tu a l a s k th e q u e s ti o n t o s a y I a m n o t a w a r e o f a n y d e c is io n t h a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n m a d e p r io r t o th a t d a t e a n d i f h e f e e ls s o s tr o n g l y t h a t a d e c i s io n h a d b e e n t a k e n a n d a c o m m i t m e n t m a d e t o t h e m a s J e t A ir w a y s t h e n c o u l d h e a t l e a s t 10 d is c l o s e w h o h a d g iv e n h i m t h a t a s s u r a n c e t h a t S A A w o u l d b e t e r m in a ti n g th e r o u te . T h is is th e – i t is a t th is p o i n t th a t h e t h e n s a y s it w a s M r S m y t h . A n d t o s o m e e x te n t I p r o b a b l y w a s – c o u l d u n d e r s t a n d h i s fr u s tr a ti o n b e c a u s e p a r t o f h is fr u s tr a t i o n w a s t h a t n o w t h e y h a v e o n t h e b a s is o f t h i s c o m m i t m e n t th a t w a s m a d e t h e y h a v e n o w g o n e a n d t h e y a r e l ik e y o u k n o w s t a r t e d o p e r a ti n g s e r v ic e s I m e a n t o S o u th A f r ic a s o h e is v e r y f r u s tr a t e d a t th is p o i n t i n ti m e b e c a u s e t h i n g s h a v e n o t g o n e a c c o r d i n g t o p la n a c c o r d i n g t o h i m . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y M s Mz i m e l a is h e t h e n a l l o w e d t o c o n t i n u e a n d m a k e t h e s e c o m m e n t s s ta t e m e n ts a n d d e m a n d s 20 u n i n t e r r u p te d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I n d e e d h e is w h i c h I a c t u a l ly f o u n d q u i te s tr a n g e a s w e l l b e c a u s e n o w is a ls o e n d s u p b e i n g l ik e h e s a y s a n d t h e o n l y t w o p e o p l e r e a l ly t a lk i n g a r e m y s e l f a n d h e b u t h e y o u k n o w h e is b a s i c a ll y i n a w a y b a s ic a lly t r y in g t o g e t m e t o s a y s h u t u p a n d l e t u s g e t o n w i th t h i s d i s c u s s i o n t h i s is w h a t y o u a c tu a lly s h o u l d Page 127 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 b e d o in g . A n d I q u i t e s u r p r is e d b e c a u s e m a y b e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n d i ff e r e n t i f i t w a s m y s e l f a n d h e I m e a n o n o u r o w n a n d h e d e c i d e s t o s p e a k t o m e i n th a t m a n n e r b u t in m y e x p e r i e n c e w i th t h e M i n i s te r a n d a D e p u ty Mi n is te r s i t ti n g i n t h e r o o m a n d t h is i s a f o r e i g n e r i n o u r c o u n tr y a n d h e c o m e s a n d h e t a k e s t h a t t y p e o f to n e in a m e e t in g a n d is a ll o w e d t o a c tu a lly c a r r y o n a n d s p e a k i n t h a t m a n n e r I fo u n d t h a t t o b e d i s tu r b in g to s a y t h e l e a s t . A n d h e d o e s t h is u n t il a n d I w o u l d – I c a n o n ly s p e c u la t e b u t u n ti l D e p u t y M i n is t e r g e t s to a p o i n t w h e r e i n m y v ie w h e c a m e a c r o s s a s s o m e o n e w h o w a s n o w u p s e t b e c a u s e 10 o b v i o u s l y w e w e r e w a i ti n g f o r t h e c h a ir p e r s o n w h o i s t h e M i n is t e r to s t e p in , h e d o e s n o t i n te r v e n e u n ti l y o u k n o w i t is a c tu a lly D e p u ty M i n is t e r B e n M a r t in s w h o i n te r v e n e s a n d s a y s n o , n o , n o p l e a s e s t o p r ig h t t h e r e w e h a v e n o p r o b l e m w e a r e a ll s i tt i n g h e r e t o tr y t o l is t e n to w h a t y o u r is s u e s a r e a n d t o tr y a n d f in d a w a y to a s s is t i f t h e r e i s a w a y o f a s s is t in g b u t p l e a s e b e c a r e fu l a b o u t t h e w a y i n w h i c h y o u s p e a k t o u s a n d y o u c a n n o t b e t a lk i n g t o u s a s if y o u a r e g iv i n g u s in s t r u c t i o n s i n o u r o w n c o u n tr y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j u s t c o n ti n u e in t e r m s o f g iv i n g u s a f u l l p ic t u r e o f t h e m e e ti n g . 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : So at that stage Mr Goyal then a p o lo g i s e d . CHAIRPERSON : B e f o r e M r B e n M a r ti n s in t e r v e n e d y o u h a d s a i d s o m e t h i n g i n r e s p o n s e o th e r t h a n s a y i n g w h o g a v e y o u t h e i m p r e s s i o n Page 128 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h a t a d e c i s i o n h a d b e e n t a k e n a lr e a d y p l e a s e t e l l u s a n d h e to l d y o u . A p a r t fr o m th a t w a s t h e r e a n y th i n g e ls e o f a n y s i g n i fic a n c e y o u h a d r a i s e d o r n o t r e a ll y ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I w o u ld h a v e u s e d th e o p p o r tu n i t y t o o n c e a g a i n r a is e t h e i s s u e th a t I w il l r e - e m p h a s is e w h a t I h a d s h a r e d w i t h t h e M i n is te r w h ic h is w e a r e n o t o p p o s e d t o fi n d i n g a w o r k a b le p a r t n e r s h i p b u t a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d w h a t th e y a r e p l a c i n g o n t h e t a b le is n o t s o m e th in g th a t w e w o u l d e v e r c o n s i d e r a n d I j u s t – a n d h e n c e I w e n t b a c k t o a s k w h o h a d a c t u a l ly c o n f ir m e d th a t w e a r e g o in g 10 t o c l o s e t h e r o u t e b e c a u s e h e k e p t o n e m p h a s is in g t h a t S A A n e e d e d t o g e t o ff t h e r o u te a n d I s a id t h a t i s n o t p a r t o f t h e d is c u s s w e a r e n o t a l ig n e d t o t h a t d is c u s s io n . W h a t e v e r d i s c u s s i o n s t h a t w e c o n ti n u e t o h a v e w i t h J e t A ir w a y s a r e p u r e ly o n a c o d e s h a r e w h ic h w e th in k s h o u l d b e m u t u a lly b e n e fic ia l t o b o th p a r ti e s . B u t t h e y a r e s t u c k o n t h is is s u e o f u s n o t d o in g w h a t t h e y e x p e c t e d t o d o w h ic h is to g e t o ff t h e r o u t e c o m p le t e l y b y u s s o r r y C h a i r I m e a n S A A . CHAIRPERSON : At that stage did you have an understanding of how lo n g b e fo r e t h is m e e ti n g t h is d e c is io n t h a t h e s a id h a d b e e n t a k e n h a d b e e n t a k e n t o h i s k n o w l e d g e , d i d h e g iv e a n in d i c a t i o n o f – w a s i t a 20 d e c is i o n o f a fe w w e e k s a g o , a f e w d a y s , o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t d i d not emerge? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : B a s e d o n w h a t h e s h a r e d a t th e m e e ti n g C h a ir h e a c t u a l ly i n d ic a te d th a t e v e n p r i o r t o t h e m a s J e t A ir w a y s c o m m e n c in g t h e r o u t e t o J o h a n n e s b u r g i t w a s o n t h e b a s i s th a t S A A h a d a lr e a d y c o n f ir m e d to t h e m t h a t t h e y w o u l d b e g e t ti n g o ff t h e Page 129 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 route. CHAIRPERSON : Oh they were… M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o th i s … CHAIRPERSON : T h e y w e r e a lr e a d y o p e r a ti n g b e t w e e n J o h a n n e s b u r g and Mumbai. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ja. CHAIRPERSON : O r t h e y h a d a lw a y s f o r a lo n g t i m e th e y h a d b e e n o p e r a ti n g t h e r o u t e t h e y j u s t w a n t e d S A A o u t o f th e w a y ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : N o C h a ir. S o a s a t t h i s d a t e w h e n 10 t h is m e e ti n g n o w t a k e s p l a c e J e t A ir w a y s h a s n o w c o m m e n c e d w i t h fr e q u e n c i e s t o S o u t h A f r i c a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e s tr e n g th o f th is d e c i s i o n h e i s t a lk i n g a b o u t a s y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e p o s i ti o n ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d a c c o r d i n g t o h i m . CHAIRPERSON : According to him. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : O n t h e s tr e n g t h o f i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : B u t y o u w il l r e c a ll t h a t I – w h e n I s t a r t e d o ff I s a i d a t th e p o i n t a t w h ic h w e w e r e a l s o m a k in g t h e 20 r e c o m m e n d a ti o n to th e b o a r d t o s a y w e s h a ll n o t b e c l o s in g t h a t r o u t e . We were the sole – SAA was the sole operator on the route. So they c o m m e n c e d o p e r a ti o n s i n to S o u th A fr ic a a n d a c c o r d i n g t o h i m th e y d o t h a t o n t h e b a s is th a t t h e r e is a c o m m i t m e n t t h a t w a s m a d e t o th e m t h a t S A A w o u l d g e t o ff t h e r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . Page 130 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : U m s o r r y. T h e n h e a p o lo g is e s w h e n D e p u t y M i n is te r a t th a t ti m e C H A I R P E R S O N : I n te r v e n e d MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Intervenes. H e th e n a p o lo g is e s a n d h i s t o n e is s l ig h tl y d i ffe r e n t i n t e r m s o f – o b v io u s ly s t il l r a i s i n g t h e is s u e s t h a t h e is d i s a p p o i n te d , t h a t w e a r e n o t m a k in g p r o g r e s s a n d q u i te fr u s tr a te d b e c a u s e t h e y r e a lly t h i n k t h a t t h e y c o u ld b e g o o d p a r t n e r s I m e a n t o S A A a n d a t t h e m o m e n t h e f e e l s li k e w e a r e n o t 10 m o v i n g f o r w a r d f a s t e n o u g h i n t e r m s o f t r y i n g t o fi n a l is e o r f o r m a li s e t h e p a r t n e r s h i p . T h a t C h a ir w a s t h e g i s t o f t h e m e e t in g u n ti l M r G i g a b a w h o w a s b a s ic a l ly s i le n t r ig h t t h r o u g h t h e e x c h a n g e e v e n w h e n t h e r e w a s a n e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n my s e l f y o u k n o w a n d Mr G o y a l . Ev e n w h e n M r B e n M a r ti n s a c t u a l ly i n t e r v e n e s h e h a d n o t s a i d a n y th in g a t th a t p o i n t in t i m e e x c e p t … . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s – I a m s o r r y w h a t w a s M r G o y a l’s r e a c t io n t o y o u s a y i n g t h e i s s u e o f S A A c lo s i n g t h e r o u t e is o u t o f th e q u e s t i o n . T h a t is n o t w h a t w e a r e h e r e t o t a l k a b o u t . W e a r e h e r e t o ta lk a b o u t c o o p e r a ti o n a n d c o d e s h a r i n g . W h a t w a s h is r e a c t io n to t h a t ? 20 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h is is t h e ti m e a t w h ic h h e w a s s t il l i n s i s ti n g t h a t y o u a r e w a s t in g ti m e . G e t o ff I m e a n t h e r o u t e b e c a u s e th is is – a n d s o t h a t e x c h a n g e h a p p e n s a s w e l l p r io r to M r B e n M a r t in s – in fa c t i t p r o b a b ly a ls o th e r e a s o n w h y M r B e n M a r ti n s a ls o t h e n i n te r v e n e s to s a y, n o , n o , y o u c a n n o t r e a lly b e t e l li n g u s w h a t t o do. Page 131 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I j u s t w a n t s a y i t i s q u i te i m p o r t a n t t h a t I g e t t h e a s f u l l a p ic tu r e o f t h e m o o d a n d th e a t m o s p h e r e a s p o s s ib l e o f th a t m e e ti n g a n d t h e w a y h e w a s t a lk i n g b e c a u s e I t h i n k I r e m e m b e r fr o m y o u r – fr o m y o u a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u g o t u p s e t . S o I a m j u s t s a y i n g to th e e x t e n t t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e d e s c r i b e d i t a s f u l ly a s y o u t h i n k y o u a r e a b l e t o f e e l fr e e to d o s o b e c a u s e i t is i m p o r ta n t t h a t I g e t a f u l l p i c tu r e b u t i f y o u a r e s a tis f ie d th a t t h e w a y y o u h a v e d e s c r i b e d i t i s s u ff ic ie n t is o k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 10 O k a y. N o C h a ir I a m a c t u a ll y s a ti s f i e d w i t h w h a t I h a v e s a i d t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : A s I s a i d I w a n t e d t o a c t u a l ly c o n c l u d e o r s a y i n t e r m s o f h o w t h e m e e t i n g t h e n c o n c l u d e d is t h a t Mr G ig a b a h is c o n tr i b u ti o n t o t h e m e e ti n g i s to t h e n r e q u e s t t h a t a s a m a t t e r o f u r g e n c y w e s h o u l d tr y a n d m e e t a s S A A a n d J e t A i r w a y s to t r y a n d w o r k t h r o u g h a s o l u ti o n o f f in d i n g a s o l u ti o n t o t h e p a r t n e r s h i p o r b u il d in g a p a r tn e r s h ip . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o h e i n e ff e c t s u g g e s t t h a t t h e d i s c u s s io n s h o u l d b e t w e e n S A A a n d J e t A ir w a y s s h o u ld b e c o n t in u e d b u t h e s a y s t o f in d a 20 way to have some kind of partnership? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIM ELA : Indeed and he says it is urgent so h e is b a s ic a l ly a s t h e M in is t e r I m e a n i n s tr u c ti n g u s I m e a n to h o l d t h a t m e e ti n g a s q u ic k ly a s p o s s ib le a n d w i th J e t Ai r w a y s i n o r d e r t o h a v e t h is d is c u s s io n f u r t h e r. B u t h e is n o t i n d ic a ti n g a t th a t p o i n t i n t i m e w h e t h e r h e a g r e e s w i t h o u r p o s i ti o n o r h e a g r e e s w i t h th e J e t A ir w a y s Page 132 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 p o s i ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A l l h e is s a y i n g i s e s s e n ti a l ly c a n y o u a c t u a l ly a n d s u r e t h a t t h e r e is a n u r g e n t m e e t i n g t h a t i s a c t u a l ly h e l d b e tw e e n t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o r t h e t w o a i r l in e s in o r d e r t o f i n d – w e ll t o f i n a li s e t h e p a r tn e r s h ip . CHAIRPERSON : I know because you have said that you were not there t o d is c u s s a p o s s ib l e c lo s u r e o f t h e M u m b a i r o u te a n d fr o m w h a t y o u s a i d M r G o y a l w a s n o t t h e r e t o d is c u s s a n y t h i n g e ls e . 10 He wanted i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f w h a t h e b e li e v e d w a s a d e c is i o n t h a t h a d b e e n taken. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I j u s t w a n t t o f i n d o u t w h e t h e r d u r i n g t h a t m e e ti n g t h e r e w a s a n y d is c u s s i o n o f t h e m e r i ts a n d d e m e r i ts o f a n y o f t h e tw o p o s i ti o n s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : C h a ir t h e r e w a s n o t a d e ta il e d d is c u s s io n e x c e p t fo r m y r e s p o n s e b a c k t o Mr G o y a l to s a y w e h a v e a l w a y s in d i c a t e d t h a t w e a r e h a p p y t o p a r tn e r w i t h th e m o n a c o d e s h a r e b a s i s t h a t i s m u t u a l ly b e n e f ic ia l t o t h e a ir li n e s b u t w h a t w e a r e 20 c le a r a b o u t is th a t w e h a v e n o i n te n ti o n s o f a c t u a ll y c l o s e o r p u ll i n g o u t t h e r o o t c o m p l e te ly b e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e t o S A A . CHAIRPERSON : A n d h o w lo n g d o y o u th in k m e e t in g t o o k p la c e fr o m t h e ti m e i t s ta r t e d a f t e r Mr G o y a l h a d a r r iv e d t o t h e e n d m o r e o r le s s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : If I e x c l u d e h is in tr o d u c ti o n w h i c h w a s p r o b a b ly a b o u t fi f t e e n m i n u t e s p r o b a b ly a b o u t t h i r t y m in u t e s , s o i n Page 133 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 total about 45 minutes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . M s M z i m e la is it c o r r e c t f o r u s t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t M i n is t e r M a l u s i G ig a b a ’s in v o lv e m e n t in t h is m e e ti n g w a s b u t li m i te d t o t h e i n t r o d u c ti o n a t t h e o u t s e t o f t h e m e e t in g a n d h is r e q u e s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : C lo s i n g r e m a r k s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : To t h e p a r ti e s a t t h e e n d ? S o r r y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s a y i n g h i s i n t r o d u c ti o n a n d c l o s i n g r e m a r k s . 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : c lo s i n g r e m a r k s . Ye s C h a ir. H i s in tr o d u c ti o n a n d Is t h a t th e e x te n t o f h is c o n tr i b u ti o n t o w a r d s th e m e e ti n g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o w h o w i n y o u r v i e w d i d Mr G ig a b a – M i n is te r G i g a b a ’s s i l e n c e p o s s ib ly e n a b l e t h e m e e t in g d is c u s s i o n a n d t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t w a s l e f t a t t h e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Just to be clear the impression on m e – l e ft w i t h m e ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 Ye s . I n y o u r v i e w y o u a t te n d e d t h e m e e ti n g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M i n i s te r G ig a b a ’s e n g a g e m e n t w a s a t t h e o u ts e t . I t w a s a t t h e c lo s u r e . T h e r e w a s n o t h i n g s a id i n b e t w e e n d e s p i te t h e v ig o r o u s e n g a g e m e n ts , d e b a t e s , a t t a c k s – s o t o s p e a k – a s y o u h a v e i n d ic a te d t h a t w a s l a u n c h e d a g a i n s t S A A w i t h t h e a id o f Page 134 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M i n is t e r ( in t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON : Well maybe attack might not be accurate but I think t h e q u e s t i o n is w h a t d i d y o u m a k e o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e M i n is t e r w a s s o s il e n t d u r i n g t h i s m e e ti n g f o r m o s t o f t h e t i m e o t h e r t h a n in tr o d u c i n g e v e r y b o d y o r th e i n tr o d u c t o r y r e m a r k s a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e m e e t in g a n d t h e s u g g e s t io n h e m a d e a t t h e e n d o f t h e m e e t i n g t h a t J e t A ir w a y s a n d S A A s h o u ld c o n ti n u e d i s c u s s io n s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: C h a ir I think for me it was d is a p p o in t in g b e c a u s e a M i n is t e r s i tt i n g t h e r e a s a s h a r e h o l d e r – 10 s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n t a t iv e o f t h e e n t i ty a n d a t t h e v e r y l e a s t - i n my o p i n i o n – h e s h o u ld p r o b a b ly h a v e u s e d t h e o p p o r tu n i t y to r e e m p h a s i s e o r in h is o w n w o r d s I m e a n s u p p o r t w h a t I h a d p r e s e n t e d t o h i m w h i c h is w e a r e h a p p y t o ta lk a b o u t c o o p e r a ti o n b u t i t h a s g o t t o b e o n th e b a s is o f i t b e in g b e n e fic i a l to S A A . CHAIRPERSON : I g u e s s e s p e c i a lly b e c a u s e y o u h a d b r i e fe d h i m o n t h e s e is s u e s a n d h e d id n o t s e e m t o h a v e – h e d id n o t r a i s e a n y p r o b le m s w i t h t h e a p p r o a c h t h a t y o u r e p r e s e n t i n g m a n a g e m e n t w e r e taking. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W o u l d M in is te r G i g a b a ’s s i le n c e h a v e e n a b l e d th e n fu r t h e r d i s c u s s i o n s o n t h e v e r y s t r o n g p r o p o s a l s th a t J e t A ir w a y s w e r e a d a m a n t to in s is t o n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I b e li e v e t h a t t h a t i s t h e c a s e C h a ir b e c a u s e h a d J e t A ir w a y s a ls o h e a r d t h e s a m e m e s s a g e fr o m th e Page 135 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n ta t iv e t h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e c o n t in u e d – I a m tr y i n g t o f in d a p o li t e w a y – t h e y w o u l d h a v e n o t c o n ti n u e d to tr y a n d s ti ll p u s h f o r th e c lo s u r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : O f th e r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I th in k fo r m e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r t h e m t o a c t u a l ly u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w e a r e a l l s p e a k i n g w i t h o n e v o i c e a n d t h a t t h e o n l y is s u e t h a t w e a r e i n te r e s t e d i n h a v i n g 10 a d is c u s s i o n w i t h t h e m o n is a p a r t n e r s h i p is it r e l a te s to a C o d e S h a r e w h ic h c o u ld b e n e fi t u s a s I s a i d lo o k i n g a t t h e b e y o n d p o in t s b e c a u s e a t t h a t p o i n t t h e y a r e a lr e a d y o p e r a ti n g t o S o u th A fr ic a . We cannot stop them. Code Sharing with them. T h e r e is n o p r o b l e m w i t h u s a c t u a ll y Th e r e is v a l u e f o r u s to g e t b e y o n d p o i n ts fr o m t h e m o u t o f M u m b a i a n d l ik e w is e w e w e r e h a p p y t o p r o v i d e w h a t w e t h o u g h t w a s e q u i v a l e n t b e n e fi t to t h e m o u t o f J o h a n n e s b u r g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: F o l lo w i n g t h is m e e t in g is i t c o r r e c t t h a t a f o l l o w m e e ti n g w a s h e l d o n 2 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 11 ? 20 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ye s a m e e ti n g w a s h e l d a n d I a tt e n d e d t h e f ir s t p a r t o f th e m e e t in g ju s t t o m a k e s u r e b e c a u s e a s th e o n ly E x e c u t iv e w h o h a d b e e n p r e s e n t w i t h t h e – a t t h e m e e t i n g w i t h th e M i n is t e r I t h o u g h t it w a s a c t u a ll y i m p o r t a n t t o b e p a r t o f t h a t m e e t in g in it i a l ly w h e r e n o w i t is J e t A ir w a y s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s a n d S A A i n th e absence of Mr Goyal. Page 136 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 S o t o a c t u a l ly th e n a g a i n c o n fir m t h a t th e i d e a is t o c o n t in u e t o – t o s p e a k t o e a c h o th e r t o t r y a n d fi n d a p a r t n e r s h i p o r t o f in a lis e a p a r t n e r s h i p t h a t is m u t u a ll y b e n e f ic i a l t o a l l p a r ti e s . I t h e n l e a v e a n d c o n ti n u e w i t h th e r e s t o f my w o r k b u t t h e n t h e t e a m b e c a u s e a t th a t p o i n t i t i s t h e H e a d o f C o m m e r c ia l n o w w h o is n o w r u n n i n g w it h th e p r o c e s s r ig h t fu ll y s o a n d t h e a l li a n c e - t h e t e a m t h a t – t h a t h a n d l e d a l li a n c e a r r a n g e m e n ts . I – b u t t h e f e e d b a c k w a s t h a t n o th i n g r e a l ly c a m e o u t o f t h a t m e e ti n g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o – b e fo r e y o u – w e h e a r a b o u t th e f e e d b a c k in te r m s o f th e c o m p o s i t io n o f t h a t m e e ti n g d o y o u k n o w h o w i t w a s composed? Who attended? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f n a m e s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: O k a y. C h a ir – I m e a n – fr o m m y s id e I c a n c o n fi r m t h a t t h e – t h e H e a d o f – o f C o m m e r c i a l a t t h a t p o in t in ti m e w a s M r T h e u n i s P o t g ie t e r a n d h e w o u l d h a v e – y o u k n o w – a tt e n d e d t h e – t h e m e e t i n g w i th h is te a m f r o m th e A ll i a n c e D e p a r t m e n t . I cannot quite recall … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m ig h t n o t r e c a l l t h e n a m e s o f t h e t e a m s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : A n d fr o m t h e J e t A i r w a y s s i d e d o y o u k n o w ? Mr Goyal was not there? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ye s . M r G o y a l w a s n o t t h e r e b u t h e h a d h is … Page 137 of 218 W h a t I c a n c o n fi r m is t h a t 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r p e o p l e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : O t h e r p e o p l e o r r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y, a lr ig h t a n d w h a t w a s t h e fe e d b a c k t o y o u o n t h e m e e ti n g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e f e e d b a c k w a s t h a t e s s e n t ia ll y t h e y h a d n o t b e e n a b l e to m a k e p r o g r e s s b e c a u s e J e t A ir w a y s w a s s ti ll s t u c k o n t r y i n g t o g e t S A A t o m o v e o ff th e r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a s y o u – i n t e r m s o f t h e r e p o r t th a t w a s m a d e t o y o u w a s t h e p o s i ti o n b a s i c a ll y e x a c tl y t h e s a m e a s i t w a s a t t h e 10 m e e ti n g w h ic h y o u h a d a t t e n d e d w h e r e J e t A ir w a y s w a s s a y i n g g e t o ff t h e r o u te a n d y o u w e r e s a y in g w e a r e n o t g e t ti n g o ff t h e r o u te b u t i f y o u w a n t t o ta lk C o d e S h a r i n g w e c a n t a lk ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: So … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e M i n i s te r w a s n o t i n t h a t m e e ti n g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , o k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: 20 Th is is a m e e t i n g n o w t h a t t a k e s place at SAA. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: S o t h i s m e e ti n g s i m i la r ly c o n c lu d e s o n t h e b a s is t h a t t h e p a r t ie s c a n n o t r e a c h a c o n s e n s u s . Is th a t r i g h t? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: J u s t a s a m a t te r o f in t e r e s t w h a t – Page 138 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 h o w d id th e p e r f o r m a n c e o f S A – o f S A A a n d J e t A ir w a y s r e la t iv e to th is r o u t e c o m p a r e t o e a c h o th e r if t h e y c o u l d c o m p a r e a t a ll ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: W e ll we w o u ld not have – d e f in i te ly w o u ld n o t h a v e p r iv y t o th e i r p e r f o r m a n c e s ta t is ti c s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w th e y p e r fo r m e d , j a . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : L ik e t h e f in a n c i a ls … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I m e a n – i n te r ms o f h o w t h e y a r e a c t u a ll y p e r f o r m i n g b u t w h a t w e w o u l d k n o w is t h a t th e y w e r e h u r ti n g 10 a n d w h e n I s a y h u r ti n g b e c a u s e i t w a s t o o m u c h – t h e y h a d g o n e in a n d p u t i n t o o m u c h fr e q u e n c y i n t o th e m a r k e t a n d t h e y w e r e n o t a b le t o f il l t h o s e a ir c r a ft . S o j u s t u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h e – t h e a i r l in e i n d u s tr y a n d w h a t y o u w o u l d n o r m a l ly r e q u ir e s o r t o f l i k e a n a v e r a g e l o a d f a c t o r w e w e r e – w e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t th e y w o u l d b e h u r ti n g . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : We … C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g o b a c k t o t h e ti m e b e tw e e n t h e m e e ti n g th a t y o u a t te n d e d w i t h t h e M i n i s t e r a n d J e t A ir w a y s a n d t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g w h ic h y o u d i d n o t a t t e n d . I n b e t w e e n d i d y o u – d id y o u c o n fr o n t M r S m y th a n d s a y I h e a r d fr o m M r G o y a l t h a t y o u h a d t o l d h i m t h a t a 20 d e c is i o n h a d b e e n t a k e n b y S A A t h a t i t w o u l d c lo s e d o w n th e M u m b a i R o u t e , is t h a t tr u e a n d te ll m e h o w d id t h a t c o m e a b o u t, w h a t is g o i n g on? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I n d e e d i – I d i d C h a ir a n d it w o u l d p r o b a b ly h a v e b e e n o n th e v e r y d a y w h e n I g o t b a c k t o t h e o ffi c e to h a v e a c t u a ll y c a ll e d h i m a n d s a i d th is i s t h e s i tu a ti o n t h a t I fo u n d Page 139 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 m y s e l f i n – in th e m e e t in g w h e r e Mr G o y a l a c t u a l ly s a i d t h e f o ll o w i n g a n d h e d e n ie d i t . H e s a id h e h a d n e v e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d e n ie d i t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ye s . H e s a i d h e h a d n e v e r m a d e a n y c o m m i t m e n ts … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : To t e r m i n a t e th e r o u t e … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: 10 Except for what they had put f o r w a r d a s a t e a m a s a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : To p u ll o ff t h e r o u te b u t h e s a id h e never made a personal commitment … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : To M r G o y a l o r p r o v i d e d t h e m w i t h c o n fir m a t io n … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t S A A w o u ld b e t e r m i n a t in g t h e route. 20 CHAIRPERSON : Did he indicate w h e th e r he had shared r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w it h M r G o y a l o r w i th a n y b o d y f r o m J e t A i r w a y s ? the In o th e r w o r d s h a d h e to ld e it h e r Mr G o y a l o r a n y b o d y fr o m J e t A ir w a y s t h a t h e w o u l d b e m a k i n g a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o t h e B o a r d th a t th e r o u t e be closed down? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: N o C h a ir. Page 140 of 218 H e d i d n o t a c t u a ll y 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 in d i c a t e th a t a t a ll . I m e a n a t t h a t p o i n t h e is – h e w a s lik e d e n y i n g , yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n p a g e 2 1 a t p a r a g r a p h 5 4 y o u t a lk a b o u t a m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u p r e p a r e d t o th e D G o n 11 A p r i l 2 0 11 . C a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a i n th e p u r p o s e o f t h is m e m o r a n d u m t o th e C h a ir ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: The purpose of the memorandum t o t h e D G w a s to a c t u a l ly p r o v i d e h e r w i th a n u p d a t e o n w h e r e w e w e r e w i t h t h e d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h J e t A i r w a y s a s t h e p e r s o n w h o I h a d l ia is e d 10 w i t h a t D P E i n o r d e r f o r h i m t o p r o v id e f u r t h e r f e e d b a c k to t h e – t o th e M i n is t e r a n d I i n d i c a t e d i n t h a t m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w e h a d s ti ll n o t f o u n d a w o r k a b l e s o l u ti o n b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s a n d – a n d J e t A ir w a y s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: To t h a t e n d c a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o page 1-1-6 please? CHAIRPERSON: What is the page number? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : 1-1-6. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h i s d o c u m e n t? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s I d o . 20 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t is i t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : W h a t i t is – is a p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e a c tu a lly p u t t o g e t h e r a s t h e S A A M a n a g e m e n t Te a m t o n o t j u s t s a y w e a r e n o t p r e p a r e d o r r a th e r t o – to s e t o u t t h e b a s i s o n w h ic h w e w e r e h a p p y t o – t o f in a lis e p a r t n e r s h i p w it h J e t A i r w a y s . S o in t e r m s o f th i s p r e s e n ta t io n w e ta lk a b o u t t h e v a r i o u s o p t i o n s a n d w e Page 141 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 s a y w e a r e h a p p y t o c o n c l u d e a C o d e S h a r e r e l a t i o n s h i p w i t h th e m b u t it w o u l d b e o n th e b a s i s th a t th e y r e d u c e t h e fr e q u e n c y t h a t th e y a r e a lr e a d y o p e r a t in g i n t h e m a r k e t p l a c e s o t h a t i t a c t u a l ly m a k e s s e n s e b e c a u s e o b v i o u s ly w e a r e lo o k i n g a t t h e n u m b e r s n o w fr o m a n S A A p e r s p e c t iv e i n te r m s o f w h a t w o u l d b e th e – t h e b e n e f i t t o u s . S o t h o s e a r e th e p r o p o s a ls t h a t w e t h e n t a b l e a s w e l l to t h e D G a s p a r t o f t h e l e tt e r t h a t I s e n t t o h i m a s a n u p d a t e in o r d e r to d e m o n s t r a t e th a t w e h a v e a p p li e d o u r m i n d s a s t o i f – if w e a r e g o i n g t o p r o c e e d i t w i ll h a v e t o a c t u a l ly p r o c e e d o n t h e f o l lo w i n g b a s is . 10 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o t o c a n I th e n a s k y o u t o r e a d t h e c o n c lu s i o n s t h a t a p p e a r o n p a g e 1 - 2 - 5 ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e c o n c l u s io n i s t h a t: “ S A A is c o n n e c t in g tr a ffi c is c o n s i d e r a b l e a n d S A A is n o t i n a p o s it i o n t o a d j u s t i ts s c h e d u le a s th e r e is a h i g h r is k o f l o s i n g c o n n e c t in g t r a ff ic fr o m a n d b e y o n d J o h a n n e s b u r g . Th a t S A A r e m a in s o p e n t o a p o t e n t i a l p a r t n e r s h i p w i th J e t A i r w a y s u n d e r th e r ig h t c o n d it i o n s . ” ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you and two pages – sorry – a 20 f e w p a g e s b e f o r e t h a t . I o u g h t t o h a v e ta k e n y o u h e r e fi r s t - o n p a g e 1-1-3. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Oh. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e r e a p p e a r s a m e m o r a n d u m th a t is w r i t t e n b y y o u r s e lf o r l e t m e w a i t f o r y o u f i r s t – 1 - 1 - 3 . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I t is o k a y. Page 142 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Th e r e a p p e a r s to b e a m e m o r a n d u m fr o m y o u r s e l f t o t h e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e M r Ts h e d i s o M a t o n a a n d i t is d a t e d 11 A p r il 2 0 11 . Is t h i s th e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g to e a r li e r ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you. I t is n o t e d a t t h e – o n the next page though at page 1 -1-4 that is it not signed. Yo u d o h o w e v e r c o n f ir m t h i s t o b e y o u r m e m o r a n d u m ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: S o o n 11 A p r i l 2 0 11 y o u w r i t e a m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h d e t a i ls a n d g iv e s a n a c c o u n t o n S A A’s p o s i ti o n in r e l a ti o n t o t h e M u m b a i R o u te a n d t h a t i s p r e c e d e d b y a m e e ti n g y o u h a d i n J a n u a r y o n t h e r o u t e b u t th r e e d a y s l a t e r o n 1 4 A p r i l 2 0 11 i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u g e t s u m m o n s e d t o C a p e To w n a g a in ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: That is corr ect. S o th e – th e C h a ir p e r s o n o n c e a g a in g e t s a c a ll i n d i c a t i n g t h a t in le s s th a n 2 4 h o u r s w e s h o u l d m a k e o u r s e lv e s a v a i la b le f o r a m e e ti n g w it h t h e M i n i s t e r in C a p e To w n . U n f o r t u n a t e ly o n c e a g a i n M s C a r o l u s - I t h in k s h e w a s a c t u a ll y – h a d a p l a n n e d tr i p a t t h a t ti m e – w a s u n a b le t o a t te n d t h e 20 m e e ti n g . S h e th e n r e q u e s te d M r Te d d y D a k a to a c c o m p a n y m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr … ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Te d d y D a k a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S h e r e q u e s t e d M r Te d d y D a k a t o a c c o m p a n y m e to – to t h e m e e ti n g i n – in C a p e To w n . Page 143 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u g e t t h is c a ll a r o u n d w h e n i n A p r i l? A fe w d a t e s b e f o r e th e d a t e f o r t h e m e e ti n g o r w h a t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . I t w a s 2 4 h o u r s b e f o r e . CHAIRPERSON : Oh. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o w it h i n 2 4 h o u r s w e n e e d e d t o … CHAIRPERSON : Oh. So … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I n fa c t I t h in k w e g o t t h e c a ll t h e – t h e p r e v io u s a f te r n o o n a n d w e h a d t o b e i n C a p e To w n t h e f o ll o w i n g 10 d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: M r – it w a s v e r y s h o r t n o ti c e t o s u c h a n e x t e n t t h a t w h il s t M r Te d d y D a k a i n i ti a l ly w a s n o t g o i n g to b e a b l e to e v e n a c c o m p a n y m e t o th e m e e ti n g b e c a u s e h e h a d a y o u n g d a u g h t e r a t t h a t ti m e t h a t h e – w e ll w a s – h e w a s t a k i n g r e s p o n s i b i li t y f o r h i s d a u g h t e r a t th a t p o i n t in t i m e a n d h e in d ic a t e d t h a t h e d i d n o t h a v e a n y b o d y t o b a b y s i t t h e li t t le g i r l a n d t h e r e f o r e h e w o u ld b e u n a b l e 20 t o tr a v e l w it h u s a t v e r y s h o r t n o t ic e . I n o r d e r t o e v e n a c c o m m o d a t e h i m a t te n d i n g t h e m e e ti n g w i th m e w e e v e n m a d e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o s a y w e w i ll fi n d s o m e b o d y to b a b y s i t h is d a u g h te r w h e n w e g e t to C a p e To w n b e c a u s e i t w a s i m p o r t a n t a lw a y s a g a i n fr o m a g o v e r n a n c e p e r s p e c t iv e t h a t t h is w a s a r e q u e s t t h a t h a d b e e n p u t to t h e B o a r d . Page 144 of 218 T h e C h a ir p e r s o n f e l t t h a t 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M r D a k a w a s b e s t p l a c e d t o b e th e o n e to a c c o m p a n y m e a n d e s p e c i a l ly b e c a u s e w e w e n t i n t o t h a t m e e ti n g n o t e v e n k n o w in g w h a t w a s g o i n g to b e d i s c u s s e d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o y o u d id n o t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t k n o w … A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : R e c e iv e a n a g e n d a ? C H A I R P E R S O N : A t a ll w h a t – w h y y o u w e r e b e in g c a l le d t o a m e e ti n g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A t a ll C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e j u s t t o l d c o m e t o C a p e To w n f o r a m e e ti n g 10 tomorrow? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y ; b u t y o u d i d n o t g e t th e c a l l . Yo u g o t – y o u d id n o t g e t t h e c a ll fr o m t h e M i n i s tr y. Yo u g o t t h e c a ll fr o m t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d w h o h a d b e e n c a l le d … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h e M i n is tr y o r th e M i n is t e r ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h o w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e t in g ? 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In C a p e To w n ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o w h e n w e a r r i v e d – th e m e e ti n g in C a p e To w n i t w a s M i n i s te r G i g a b a w h o w a s t h e C h a ir o f – o f t h e m e e ti n g , M r S iy a b o n g a M a h l a n g u , M s R a i s i b e L e p u l e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Mr M a h l a n g u a n d … ? Page 145 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : M s R a is i b e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Lepule was – I think she was the D D G o r t h e D i r e c t o r - G e n e r a l – D ir e c to r o f Av i a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : She was one of those who looked … A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : F o r th e r e c o r d … 10 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A f te r a v i a ti o n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : F o r t h e r e c o r d th a t i s s p e lt R - A - I- S - I B - E a n d th e L - E- P - U - L - E . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ye s a n d P r o f e s s o r Vu s i G u m e d e w h o w a s t h e o t h e r a d v is o r t o t h e M i n i s t e r. I th i n k m o r e h is e c o n o m ic a d v is o r i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n , t h e D G M r Ts h e d is o M a t o n a a n d o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ta l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M s M z i m e la is th is t h e s a m e D G th a t y o u s e n t th e m e m o r a n d u m t o t h r e e d a y s l a t e r - th r e e d a y s e a r li e r ? 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d i t is . CHAIRPERSON : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: P le a s e p r o c e e d a s t o w h a t th e n tr a n s p ir e d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d t h e v e n u e o f t h e m e e ti n g w a s w h e r e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e v e n u e o f t h e m e e ti n g w a s t h e Page 146 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 D P E O ff ic e s in C a p e To w n . C H A I R P E R S O N : D P E O ff i c e s , j a . MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : DPE - yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : D P E O ff ic e s i n C a p e To w n . C H A I R P E R S O N : In P a r li a m e n t? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: 10 S o a s I in d i c a t e d C h a ir t h a t w e h a d n o i d e a w h a t t h e m e e ti n g w a s a b o u t . W h e n M r D a k a w a s a s k in g m e I w a s a c tu a lly s p e c u l a ti n g a n d t h i n k i n g n o m a y b e t h e y a r e a c t u a ll y r e l a t e d to o u r r e q u e s t f o r a g u a r a n t e e b u t w e w e r e ju s t t h i n k i n g a ll s o r ts o f t h in g s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t k n o w w h a t t o ta k e a l o n g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: B u t w e d id n o t k n o w w h a t t o ta k e along. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w t o p r e p a r e f o r t h e m e e ti n g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : And we … CHAIRPERSON : A n d t h e C h a ir w h o h a d to l d y o u a b o u t th e m e e ti n g a ls o h a d n o t – d id n o t k n o w ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S h e e q u a l ly d id n o t k n o w w h y t h e Page 147 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 m e e ti n g h a d b e e n – b e e n c a ll e d a n d a s I s a y I h a v e i n d ic a te d t h e people who I recall who were there and as I said other DPE d e p a r t m e n ta l p e r s o n n e l a s w e ll . M r G i g a b a a s th e C h a ir o f – o f th e m e e ti n g th e n i n d i c a t e s a t t h e s ta r t o f t h e m e e ti n g t h a t h e h a s s e v e r a l it e m s t h a t h e w o u l d l ik e t o d is c u s s w it h u s b u t fir s t a n d f o r e m o s t h e w a n ts t o a c t u a l ly g e t a n u p d a te o f th e J e t A ir w a y s / S A A d is c u s s i o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u s a y fi r s t a n d fo r e m o s t . I g e t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t th a t th o s e w e r e t h e w o r d s h e u s e d . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: He does say that. I m e a n – f ir s t a n d fo r e m o s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: W h a t h e w o u l d lik e t o g e t a n u p d a te … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: O n t h e J e t Ai r w a y s – o n t h e J e t A ir w a y s / S A A d is c u s s i o n s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 A n d f o r t h a t p a r ti c u la r i te m f o r d is c u s s io n is it t o b e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t h e g a v e p r e f e r e n c e t h e n t o t h a t as above to any other matters which were urgent within the o r g a n i s a t io n ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Th e t r u th o f t h e m a t t e r i f I c o u l d – s o t h r o u g h – I m e a n - th e m e e ti n g a s w e ll . I n t h e e n d w e c o n c l u d e d t h e m e e ti n g d is c u s s i n g n o th in g e ls e e x c e p t – I m e a n – fo r t h e J e t … Page 148 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex c e p t th a t i t e m ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ex c e p t f o r t h a t i te m b u t h e h a d a c t u a ll y o p e n e d u p t h e d is c u s s i o n s s t a ti n g t h a t t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f is s u e s t h a t h e w a n ts to d i s c u s s w i t h u s … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: B u t h e w a n ts t o s t a r t fi r s t a n d f o r e m o s t w i th t h e I n d i a / S o u t h A f r i c a R o u t e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 10 B a s e d o n y o u r p o s i ti o n a s G r o u p C E O a t th e t i m e h o w d i d t h e u r g e n c y o f t h is p a r t ic u l a r m a t te r c o m p a r e t o a n y o t h e r m a t te r s o f u r g e n c y w i th i n S A A ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: It was – we had far more urgent is s u e s a n d w h ic h is w h y e v e n in r e s p o n d i n g t o t h is u r g e n t r e q u e s t t o g o – t o a t t e n d a m e e t in g i n C a p e To w n o u r s p e c u l a ti o n s a t n o p o in t d id w e e v e n i m a g e t h a t th e – t h e d i s c u s s io n to p i c w a s g o i n g t o b e a b o u t J e t A ir w a y s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J e t A ir w a y s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Yo u k n o w w e s p e c u l a te d a b o u t e v e r y t h i n g e ls e th i n k i n g w e p r o b a b ly n e e d t o d i s c u s s o r p r o v id e a n 20 u p d a te in t e r m s o f th e g u a r a n te e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Yo u k n o w – m a y b e i t a c t u a l ly r e l a t e s t o s o m e o f t h e – th e is s u e s t h a t w e h a v e b e e n h a v in g o n g o in g d is c u s s io n s – I m e a n – w i t h t h e d e p a r t m e n t o n w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e w i t h i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n . S o l o n g a n d s h o r t i s t h a t i t w a s r e a l ly … Page 149 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h e l e a s t o r o u r p r i o r i t ie s . CHAIRPERSON : H m ; b e fo r e t h e d is c u s s i o n o n th is m a t t e r h e d id n o t a r ti c u la t e w h a t th o s e – th e o th e r is s u e s w e r e ? H e ju s t s a i d t h e y w e r e – h e h a d a lo n g l is t b u t t h e - t h e fi r s t o n e w a s t h e – h e w a n te d to b e b r i e f e d o n t h e p r o g r e s s o n t h e d i s c u s s io n s b e t w e e n S A A a n d A ir w a y s about the Mumbai Route? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d C h a ir. I d o n o t r e c a ll … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Him m e n ti o n i n g any other ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y o t h e r, y e s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, c o n t in u e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Please. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o it d i d ta k e m e a l i tt l e b i t b y s u r p r is e t h a t I w a s fi n d i n g m y s e lf o n c e a g a i n h a v i n g t o p r o v i d e a n u p d a te o n th e M u m b a i R o u t e e s p e c i a l ly b e c a u s e I h a d j u s t a fe w d a y s b e f o r e h a d p r o v i d e d a w r i tt e n m e m o r a n d u m t o – to t h e D G o n w h e r e w e 20 w e r e w i t h o u r d is c u s s i o n s w i t h J e t A i r w a y s b u t I s t a r t e d a n d t h e M i n is t e r t o a s k e d m e t o p r o v id e f e e d b a c k . S o I b a s ic a l ly s ta r t e d t o p r o v i d e th e f e e d b a c k o n th e b a s i s o f w h a t I h a d s h a r e d w i th t h e D G to s a y t h is is w h e r e w e a r e . T h is … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e D G w a s p r e s e n t i n t h e m e e ti n g ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : The DG was present … Page 150 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I n t h e m e e ti n g – t o s a y t h is i s w h e r e w e a r e . T h is i s t h e p r o g r e s s t h a t h a s b e e n m a d e o r t h e p r o g r e s s that has not been made. T h e s e a r e s o m e o f th e s u g g e s ti o n s o r t h e o p t io n s t h a t w e h a v e t a b l e d w i th J e t A ir w a y s b u t b e f o r e I c o u l d e v e n fi n i s h M r S iy a b o n g a M a h l a n g u i n t e r v e n e s v e r y, v e r y, v e r y a n g r i ly j a a n d h e s t a r ts t o – y o u k n o w – s a y h e … CHAIRPERSON : W i th o u t b e i n g a ll o w e d b y th e C h a ir p e r s o n j u s t in t e r v e n e d a b r u p tly ? 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Ye s C h a ir w h ic h i s w h y I a m s a y in g b e f o r e I c o u l d e v e n f in is h m y b r ie f in g r i g h t i n t h e m i d d le o f m y b r i e fi n g h e i n t e r v e n e s a n d h e s a y s h e is r e a l ly tir e d o f th e a m o u n t o f ti m e t h a t w e a r e w a s t in g o n t h e m a t te r. A s fa r a s h e i s c o n c e r n e d w e a r e w a s ti n g ta x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y. T h e r e a r e t o i l e t s t h a t n e e d t o b e b u il t a n d w e a r e j u s t w a s ti n g ti m e a n d h e is e q u a l ly ti r e d o f th e s e m a n a g e m e n t w h o a r e a l w a y s c o n ti n u o u s ly p r e s e n t i n g a n a ly s i s a n d a n a l y s is t o s u p p o r t t h e ir p o s i t io n o n w h y a c e r t a i n d e c i s i o n h a s b e e n ta k e n a n d a ll h e s e e s is t h a t w e a r e ju s t f a il in g t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e s e a r e i s s u e s o f n a ti o n a l i m p o r t a n c e 20 a n d w e s h o u l d j u s t g e t o ff t h e r o u t e . M r G i g a b a f a i ls t o r e p r i m a n d Mr M a h la n g u . S o h e c o n t i n u e s a n d c o m p l e te ly u n a c c e p t a b l e a n d r u d e b e h a v i o u r i n m y v i e w a n d h e g o e s o n a n d o n a b o u t E x e c u tiv e s w h o d o n o t l is t e n a n d in m y v ie w i t g e t s t o a p o i n t w h e r e I l o o k a t it I s a y t h is is g e t t in g q u i te p e r s o n a l n o w. H e is n o w a t t a c k in g m e i f h e s ta r t s t o t a lk a b o u t E x e c u t iv e s w h o Page 151 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 d o n o t li s te n a n d a l l t h e y d o a s I s a i d i s ju s t p r e s e n t a n a ly s is o n w h y t h i n g s s h o u l d b e d o n e i n a p a r t ic u l a r w a y a n d b e c a u s e Mr G i g a b a i s n o t in t e r v e n i n g . N o o n e is s a y i n g a n y t h in g a t t h a t p o in t in ti m e I t h e n j u s t g o t t o a p o i n t w h e r e I g o t r e a ll y a n g r y a n d u p s e t o k a y b e c a u s e i t w a s g e t t in g q u i te p e r s o n a l . S o a t t h a t p o i n t I th e n to ld M r M a h l a n g u t h a t lo o k s t o p it n o w – y o u k n o w. T h i s is b e c o m i n g q u i te p e r s o n a l a n d I a m q u i te a n g r y a b o u t th is b e c a u s e d o n o t p e r s o n a l a n is s u e w h ic h is a b u s i n e s s c o m m e r c ia l is s u e . 10 I f y o u h a v e is s u e s w h i c h a r e m o r e o n a p e r s o n a l b a s is I a m h a p p y t o ta k e t h e d is c u s s i o n o u ts id e o f t h e r o o m b u t t h is i s n o t t h e p l a c e f o r u s – I m e a n – t o b e h a v i n g t h is d is c u s s io n a n d I a c t u a l ly f e l t t h a t h e w a s b e i n g q u i t e d i s r e s p e c t f u l b e c a u s e in m y v i e w a n d I s h a r e w i t h h i m th a t I d o n o t b e l ie v e t h a t I a m e v e r y d is r e s p e c t f u l – y o u k n o w – to anyone. E v e n if y o u w a n t – y o u h a v e a d i ffe r e n t v ie w p o i n t y o u c a n p r e s e n t t h a t d i ffe r e n t v i e w p o i n t b u t i n a r e s p e c t – a r e s p e c ta b l e m a n n e r a n d I a c t u a ll y fe l t th a t h e w a s b e in g v e r y d is r e s p e c t f u l in t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h h e w a s ta lk in g . 20 CHAIRPERSON : A n d I g e t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h e o n e f e a t u r e w h ic h w a s c o m m o n b e t w e e n t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g w h ic h y o u a t t e n d e d w it h t h e M i n is t e r o n t h is is s u e t h e M i n is t e r – w i t h M r G i g a b a w h e r e M r G o y a l w a s p r e s e n t a n d t h i s m e e t i n g w h e r e J e t A ir w a y s w a s n o t t h e r e b u t y o u w e r e m e e t i n g w i th t h e M i n is t e r a n d h is a d v i s o r a n d t h e D G a n d o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ta l p e r s o n n e l th e o n e f e a t u r e t h a t s e e m s to b e c o m m o n is Page 152 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h a t th e r e i s s o m e b o d y w h o j u s t g o e s f o r S A A q u i t e h e a v i ly ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I n d e e d C h a ir. I t h i n k th a t i n t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g i t w a s n o w M r M a h l a n g u t a k i n g t h e p la c e o f M r G o y a l ’s a tt i tu d e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In t h e fir s t m e e t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h e o n ly d i ff e r e n c e t h a t i n t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g is th a t h e is n o w – i n h is a n g e r h e is t e l li n g u s h o w w e 10 a r e w a s t in g S o u th A f r ic a n ta x p a y e r s m o n e y b y c o n ti n u i n g t o o p e r a te t h a t r o u te a n d w e d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h is is o f n a ti o n a l i m p o r t a n c e . I a m n o t to o s u r e w h y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: The t e r m in a ti o n of J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i w a s o f n a ti o n a l i m p o r ta n c e … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : B u t h e b a s ic a lly – I m e a n – t a k e s t h a t to n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s h is t o n e m o r e o r l e s s a s th a t o f M r G o y a l o r 20 t h e t o n e o f t a l k i n g t o – t o S A A a b o u t th is i s s u e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: H e w a s p r o b a b ly w o r s e . s a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o b a b ly w o r s e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Pr o b a b ly w o r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 153 of 218 I would 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d I s a y p r o b a b ly w o r s e b e c a u s e a s I i n d ic a te d C h a ir t h a t h e a c tu a l ly s t a r t e d t o b e c o m e q u i t e p e r s o n a l . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Yo u k n o w – I m e a n a s w e ll i n t e r m s o f a g t h e s e E x e c u t iv e s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Yo u k n o w – w h o j u s t d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th e y s h o u l d b e d o i n g … CHAIRPERSON : Hm. 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: And do we not understand. E s s e n t ia ll y h e w a s b a s ic a l ly a l l u d i n g t o t h e f a c t t h a t w e s h o u l d ju s t b a s ic a lly b e i m p le m e n t in g a n i n s tr u c t io n a n d n o t tr y in g t o p r e s e n t o u r o w n v i e w p o in t o n w h a t s h o u l d – w h a t d e c is i o n s h o u ld b e t a k e n o n J e t A ir w a y s a n d y e t h a v i n g s a i d th a t n o o n e h a d e v e r s a i d to u s o k a y t e r m in a t e – I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e m w r i ti n g t o u s .. CHAIRPERSON : Well I – I was about to ask … MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u r p o s i t io n a s S A A – y o u a r tic u la t e d y o u r p o s i ti o n q u it e c le a r ly a t t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g … 20 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hm. CHAIRPERSON : Th a t y o u w e r e n o t t a lk i n g – c l o s in g - a b o u t c lo s i n g t h e r o u te … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : B u t y o u w e r e o p e n t o d is c u s s i o n s a i m e d a t s o m e partnership … Page 154 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M r M a h l a n g u w a s a t t h a t m e e ti n g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is i s a n o t h e r m e e t in g . H e k n o w s y o u r p o s i t io n . H e k n o w s w h a t M r G o y a l h a d s a i d a t t h e p r e v i o u s m e e t in g . H e k n o w s t h a t y o u d is a g r e e . H e k n o w s th a t a t t h a t m e e t in g t h e M i n i s t e r d i d n o t s a y h e a g r e e d w i th – w i th M r G o y a l a t l e a s t n o t p e r s o n a l ly. H e – b u t n o w h e – fr o m w h a t y o u s a id – i t lo o k s l ik e h e w a s s p e a k i n g a s i f a d e c is i o n h a d b e e n t a k e n b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t o r b y S A A o r b y th e S o u th 10 A fr ic a n G o v e r n m e n t t h a t t h e r o u t e s h o u l d b e c l o s e d a n d y o u a r e j u s t w a i ti n g t i m e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : I s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r – o f y o u r e v i d e n c e correct? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Hence I was going to make that p o i n t t h a t fo r m e it w a s s u r p r is in g b e c a u s e it is n o t a s if w e h a d r e c e i v e d a n y o ff ic i a l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m th e m th a t S A A y o u s h a ll 20 c lo s e th e r o u t e . Th is i s th e p o in t a t w h i c h Mr D a k a a l s o th e n in t e r v e n e s . CHAIRPERSON : W e l l b e fo r e t h a t a m I c o r r e c t to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n o t h e r f e a t u r e t h a t i s c o m m o n b e t w e e n t h a t f ir s t m e e t in g a n d t h i s m e e ti n g is t h a t th e C h a ir o f t h e m e e ti n g k e e p s q u i e t w h e n th is k i n d o f “ a t ta c k ” i f – i f o n e c a n t a lk a b o u t it – b u t t h is h a r s h c r it ic is m d ir e c t e d a t Page 155 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 S A A h a p p e n s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n k e e p s q u ie t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I n d e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y c o n ti n u e . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o i t i s a t t h is p o i n t w h e n M r D a k a a l s o th e n i n te r v e n e s a n d d ir e c ts h is c o m m u n ic a t i o n to t h e C h a ir w h o is t h e M i n is t e r a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e w h e r e h e t h e n m a k e s t h e p o i n t t h a t h e i s n o t h a p p y w i t h t h e w a y i n w h i c h M r M a h l a n g u is c o n d u c t in g h i m s e l f a n d t h a t h e w is h e s t o c o n f ir m t h a t t h e e x e c u tiv e s h a d d o n e e x t e n s iv e w o r k a r o u n d th e a n a ly s is o f t h e c lo s u r e o f t h e r o u te s a n d th a t 10 t h e B o a r d , e q u a lly h a d a p p li e d i t ’s m i n d o n t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a n d t h a t th e y w e r e c o m f o r t a b le w i t h t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s th a t h a d b e e n p u t f o r w a r d b y m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h a t w h e n h e w a n te d t o m a k e i t v e r y c l e a r t h a t w e w o u ld n o t a ll o w o u r s e l v e s t h e n t o b e b u l li e d b y a n y b o d y i n r e g a r d t o t h i s d e c is io n . CHAIRPERSON: A t t h i s s ta g e , a n d m a y b e a t t h e s ta g e o f t h e fir s t m e e ti n g a lr e a d y, t h e B o a r d h a d a lr e a d y m a d e a d e c is i o n i n t e r m s o f w h ic h they accepted your r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , your t e a m ’s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t t h e r o u te s h o u l d n o t b e c l o s e d , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 CHAIRPERSON : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d t h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n e v e n b e f o r e t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n e ffe c t w h a t y o u w e r e b e i n g to ld to d o , b o th b y M r G o y l e b u t m a y b e m o r e i m p o r t a n tly b y M r M a h la n g u w h o w a s a d v is o r t o t h e M i n is t e r w a s , d o s o m e t h i n g th a t w o u l d b e c o n tr a r y t o a B o a r d Page 156 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 d e c is i o n . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : D i d Mr – d i d M i n i s t e r G i g a b a c o n tr i b u t e a t a n y s t a g e i n t h is m e e ti n g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : B e c a u s e Mr D a k a w a s n o w a d d r e s s i n g M r G i g a b a d ir e c t ly i n h is c o m m e n t s , t h i s is th e p o i n t a t w h ic h Mr G ig a b a t h e n r e s p o n d s a n d h e r e s p o n d s b y j u s t s i m p l y s ta t in g t h a t h e w i ll s ti ll l i k e S A A a n d J e t A ir w a y s t o tr y a n d f i n d e a c h o t h e r, 10 t h o s e a r e h is w o r d s , t o t r y a n d f i n d e a c h o t h e r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : And then what happens? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : A n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n s is t h a t a t t h is p o i n t, h e t h e n s a y s , t h e J e t A ir w a y s p e r s o n n e l m u s t b e i n v it e d i n to t h e m e e ti n g . S o o n c e a g a in t h e y ’r e i n v i t in g J e t A i r w a y s p e r s o n n e l t o jo in t h e m e e ti n g , w e w e r e n o t a w a r e t h a t t h e y w e r e s i t ti n g o u ts i d e t h e m e e ti n g , j u s t a s m u c h a s w e w e r e n o t a w a r e t h a t th e d i s c u s s i o n f o r th e d a y r e l a t e d to t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i r o u t e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: place 20 then, in r e l a ti o n to D i d a n y f u r th e r d is c u s s i o n s t a k e the M u m b a i r o u te after J e t A ir w a y s r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s jo i n e d th e m e e ti n g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : they are introduced, th a t is Mr N o C h a ir, b e c a u s e t h e y w a lk i n , Gwena, r e p r e s e n t a t iv e , so th e in tr o d u c t i o n i s m o r e – I m e a n w i th M r Te d d y D a k a w h o h a d n o t m e t t h e m u p u n ti l th a t p o in t a n d i t i s e s s e n t ia lly t o s a y, t h e s e a r e th e J e t A ir w a y s p e o p le a n d a g a in M r G i g a b a r e p e a ts h o w h e w o u l d l ik e t o g e t Page 157 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 J e t A ir w a y s a n d S A A t o fi n d e a c h o th e r b u t n o t h i n g f u r th e r. I t ’s n o t l ik e t h e y s i t d o w n , l ik e t h e fir s t m e e ti n g , w h e r e w e h a v e l ik e a fu r t h e r d is c u s s io n a s t o w h a t is m e a n t b y th is , tr y a n d f i n d e a c h o th e r, i t ’s j u s t a n in tr o d u c ti o n a n d t h a t is w h e r e th e m e e ti n g a c t u a ll y e n d s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h is is c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e a m e e ti n g w a s h e l d a t w h ic h – w h ic h w a s a t t e n d e d b y S A A , J e t A ir w a y s a n d c h a i r e d b y M r G ig a b a a t w h ic h it w a s q u i t e c l e a r t h a t t h e p a r t ie s w e r e n o t a n y w h e r e c lo s e t o d is c u s s i n g t h e s a m e t h i n g . T h e o n e w a s d i s c u s s in g t h a t – o r w a s s a y i n g th e o th e r m u s t p u l l o u t o f t h e r o u t e a n d t h e o t h e r o n e w a s 10 s a y in g , w e l l w e c a n t a lk a b o u t a p a r t n e r s h ip a n d t h e n th e r e h a d b e e n a m e e ti n g w h i c h d i d n ’ t i n v o l v e t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic E n te r p r is e s , between SAA and J e t A ir w a y s , a g a i n , t h e r e p o r t y o u g o t w a s , n o p r o g r e s s w a s m a d e a n d th e n th e r e w a s t h is m e e t i n g w h ic h m a y b e i t is d i ff ic u l t t o s a y w a s a t te n d e d b y J e t A ir w a y s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e n o t t h e r e d u r i n g th e m e e ti n g b u t th e y c a m e a t t h e ta il e n d a n d n o t m u c h w a s d is c u s s e d a f t e r t h a t w h e r e it w a s q u i t e c l e a r t h a t b e t w e e n S A A a n d w h o e v e r w a s a t th e m e e t in g w h o s p o k e i n f a v o u r o f t h e c l o s u r e o f t h e r o u t e t h e r e w a s a b i g g a p , is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 Yo u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d i s th a t h o w t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d n a m e ly w i th t h e M i n is t e r s u g g e s t in g th a t S A A a n d J e t A ir w a y s s h o u l d c o n t in u e t o tr y a n d fi n d e a c h o t h e r ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 158 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : D i d M i n is t e r G i g a b a g i v e a n y d ir e c t iv e a t th e e n d o f t h e m e e t in g o n f u r th e r e n g a g e m e n ts ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: W h a t h e in d i c a t e d is th a t t h e D G w o u ld t h e n b e t a s k e d to e n s u r e t h a t t h e d is c u s s i o n s t o o k p la c e a n d w o u ld b e m a n a g i n g a n y f u r t h e r, o r c o o r d in a ti n g a n y f u r t h e r d i s c u s s io n s between – f r o m h is s i d e in a n y r a t e , c o o r d in a ti n g a n y f u r th e r d is c u s s io n s b e t w e e n J e t A ir w a y s a n d S A A . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e M i n is te r m i g h t h a v e c e r t a i n b e n e fi ts t h a t h e th o u g h t w e r e q u i t e i m p o r t a n t t o b o t h p a r t ie s i f t h e y 10 w e r e t o r e a c h a g r e e m e n t , d i d h e s h a r e w i t h y o u , m a y b e a n y p a r t ic u l a r b e n e fi ts th a t h e f e l t w e r e r e a ll y i m p o r ta n t t h a t S A A c o u l d o b t a in i f th e p a r t i e s c o u l d r e a c h a g r e e m e n t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : N o C h a ir h e d i d n ’ t s h a r e a n y th in g in t h a t r e g a r d a n d a s m u c h a s t h e s e a r e t h e e x a m p le s I’ m u s i n g i n m y t e s t i m o n y, I w ill s til l m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t e a c h t i m e w e w e r e t a k e n b y s u r p r is e i n te r m s o f t h e i m p o r t a n c e t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a s p l a c in g o n t h i s r o u t e b e c a u s e w e w o u ld a t t e n d th e m e e ti n g s , b u t g o in g b a c k in t o t h e o r g a n i s a t io n y o u p r io r i ti s e t h e t h in g s t h a t a r e i m p o r t a n t. S o d is c u s s i o n s a r e o n g o in g b u t f o r u s it w a s n o t a p r i o r i ty w e h a d s o 20 m a n y o t h e r t h in g s w h i c h w e r e o f m u c h g r e a t e r i m p o r ta n c e t o th e o r g a n i s a t io n t h a n t h i s J e t A ir w a y s ( in d i s ti n c t) C h a ir, a s m u c h a s i t w o u ld h a v e a c t u a l ly – w e w e r e h a p p y to h a v e d is c u s s i o n s b e c a u s e i t t h e n p r o v e d o u r p e r fo r m a n c e o n t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i b u t i t w a s r e a l ly n o t t h e t o p o f o u r p r i o r i t y lis t . S o i t c o n ti n u e d t o p u z z l e m e a s t o t h e a m o u n t o f ti m e a n d e ffo r t t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a s s p e n d in g in Page 159 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 tr y i n g t o f i n d a s o l u ti o n o r f in d a w o r k a b l e s o lu t io n b e tw e e n S A A a n d J e t A ir w a y s . CHAIRPERSON : A n d e a c h t i m e t h e s e m e e ti n g s h a p p e n e d t h e y h a p p e n e d a t v e r y s h o r t n o ti c e c e r t a i n ly fo r S A A . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : CHAIRPERSON : Ye s C h a ir. N o w h a v e y o u h a d m u c h e x p e r i e n c e i n d e a li n g w i th a d v is o r s o f M i n i s te r s i n th e p o s i t io n s y o u h a d h e ld b e fo r e t h i s e n c o u n te r w it h th e M i n is t e r – M in is t e r G i g a b a ’s a d v i s o r, M r M a h l a n g u ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 10 N o C h a ir, I w a s – I h a d n o t, t h a t w a s s o m e t h in g th a t I a c tu a lly f o u n d q u i t e s tr a n g e a s w e ll b e t w e e n th e e x p e r i e n c e u n d e r t h e t h e n , M i n i s te r B a r b a r a H o g a n a n d M i n i s t e r G i g a b a a t t h e ti m e , w a s th a t I k n e w, a n d I w a s a w a r e th a t M i n i s te r H o g a n h a d a d v is o r s a t t h e ti m e , b u t t h e y h a d n e v e r i n v o lv e d t h e ms e lv e s w it h th e d a y – I ’d s a y d a y - t o - d a y o r o p e r a ti o n a l m a t t e r s p e r t a i n i n g t o t h e e n t i ti e s . M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t t h e a d v i s o r s w e r e t h e r e t o a d v i s e t h e M i n is te r a n d e v e n i f t h e y ’ r e p r e s e n t i n th e m e e t in g s w i th e a c h o f t h e e n t i ti e s , th a t th e m a in r o le w a s t o a d v i s e t h e M in is t e r b u t i t w a s d i ff e r e n t w i th M r S iy a b o n g a M a h l a n g u . I t ju s t c h a n g e d , I m e a n o v e r n i g h t , t h is w a s a n i n d iv i d u a l w h o w o u ld s p e n d a lo t o f ti m e w i t h i n 20 t h e S A A s y s t e m g e t ti n g i n v o lv e d i n m a t t e r s s u c h a s t h i s b u t e v e n b e y o n d w h e r e h e h a d a v e r y g r e a t i n t e r e s t i n o t h e r i s s u e s e s p e c i a l ly p e r t a in in g t o p r o c u r e m e n t w it h in S A A w h ic h w a s v e r y o d d . CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : D o y o u r e c a l l e v e r m e e ti n g w i th t h e M i n is t e r a g a in r e g a r d in g t h is p a r tic u la r is s u e o f t h e M u m b a i r o u te ? Page 160 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : N o I d o n ’ t r e c a ll a n y f u r t h e r m e e ti n g p e r t a i n i n g t o th e M u m b a i r o u te . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d s o l e t’s p u t th i n g s in t o a t i m e p e r s p e c t iv e , w i th y o u r h e l p o f c o u r s e . T h r o u g h y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u ’v e in f o r m e d t h a t, a s w e k n o w, t h a t M i n is te r M a lu s i G i g a b a w a s a p p o in t e d o n t h e 1 s t o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 , is th a t c o r r e c t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A n d th e f ir s t e n g a g e m e n t th a t y o u h a v e w i th h i m , p a r tic u la r ly in r e l a ti o n t o t h i s , o f t h e M u m b a i r o u te , is o n 10 t h e 1 0 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 11 w h e n y o u g e t c a l l e d t o a m e e ti n g in r e l a ti o n t o that. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Ye s . O n t h e 2 4 t h o f J a n u a r y t h e r e ’s a f o ll o w - u p m e e t in g w h ic h i s h e ld a t th e d ir e c ti o n o f t h e M i n is te r a t t h e ti m e f o r t h e p a r ti e s t o c o l l a b o r a te a n d s e e h o w th e y c a n fi n d e a c h o th e r, o n t h e 11 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 11 y o u w r i t e a d e t a il e d m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h g iv e s a f u l l u p d a te a s t o w h a t t h e M u m b a i r o u te – o r r a t h e r t h e s t a tu s o f t h e M u m b a i r o u t e , is t h a t r i g h t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A b o u t t h r e e d a y s l a t e r, o n t h e 1 4 t h o f A p r il – o r r a t h e r l e t m e p r e c e d e t h a t b y s a y i n g th a t o n t h e 11 t h o f A p r il w h e n y o u w r it e t h is m e m o r a n d u m y o u s e n d i t to t h e D G w h o i s a ls o i n a tt e n d a n c e a t t h e m e e ti n g o n th e 1 4 t h o f A p r i l , w h ic h is b u t th r e e d a y s la t e r a f t e r th e d a t e o f t h a t m e m o r a n d u m , is th a t r i g h t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . Page 161 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d t h is is a l l i n th e c o n te x t o f m o n th ly m e e ti n g s t h a t t a k e p l a c e b e t w e e n S A A a n d D P E o n o p e r a ti o n a l a n d fi n a n c i a l u p d a te s w h i c h a r is e o u t o f th e g o v e r n m e n t g u a r a n t e e s t h a t h a v e b e e n g iv e n t o S A A is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . O n p a g e 2 5 o f t h e b u n d l e , th e r e – y o u w e r e p r e s e n te d w i t h a l e t te r b y t h e C o m m is s i o n s i n v e s t ig a to r s a n d I u n d e r s t a n d th a t y o u ’v e c o n s i d e r e d t h a t l e t te r. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 10 T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I a s k y o u to p le a s e t u r n to p a g e 1 2 7 w h i c h u n f o r tu n a te ly is a n o th e r o n e o f th e s e l e tt e r s t h a t , d e s p i t e e ffo r t s w e c o u l d n o t f i n d a b e t t e r c o p y o f . H a v e y o u c o n s id e r e d th is le t t e r Ms M z i m e l a ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Fr o m w h a t I c a n r e a d b e c a u s e it ’s n o t a v e r y c l e a r d o c u m e n t , b u t y e s I s e e th a t t h e le t t e r is a l e t te r t h a t ’s a d d r e s s e d t o m e b y t h e D G a n d i t t a lk s s p e c i f ic a l ly a b o u t t h e M u m b a i/ J o h a n n e s b u r g r o u t e a n d t h is i s t h e D G r e q u e s ti n g v e r y d e t a i le d in f o r m a ti o n f r o m S A A r e la t in g t o t h e M u m b a i r o u t e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d ju s t f o r t h e r e c o r d o n p a g e 1 2 8 i t 20 a p p e a r s t h a t t h e d a te o f th e le t t e r i s 9 M a y 2 0 11 fr o m w h a t I c a n s e e a n d o n p a g e … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON : T h a t l o o k s lik e 3 M a y 2 0 11 , t h a t l o o k s t o m e lik e 3 r a th e r t h a n 9 . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e ’v e b e e n i n f o r m e d t h a t i t ’s a 9 . CHAIRPERSON : I s i t a 9 , o k a y. Page 162 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : I n f a c t th a t w o u l d a ls o a c c o r d w i t h w h a t s h e ’s w r i tt e n i n p a r a g r a p h 6 6 o f … ( in t e r v e n t io n ) . CHAIRPERSON : M s M z i m e l a d o y o u h a v e a b e t t e r i d e a w h e t h e r i t ’s a 9 or another number – another date? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I c a n n o t c o n f ir m C h a ir b e c a u s e t o m e i t l o o k s l ik e i t s a y s 3 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e ’l l r e s o lv e o n M a y 2 0 11 t h e n . CHAIRPERSON : 10 Ye s o k a y n o t h a t ’s fi n e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : O n p a g e 1 2 9 , is a l is t o f d e t a il e d in f o r m a ti o n t h a t a p p e a r s to b e r e q u e s te d , i n f a c t it l is ts 1 4 i te m s . W h a t c o m m e n t d o y o u h a v e t o th e ty p e o f i n f o r m a t io n t h a t w a s r e q u e s t e d b y t h e D G fr o m y o u ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I t h i n k m y c o m m e n t w o u ld b e t h a t t h is i n f o r m a t io n is v e r y d e ta il e d i n i t ’s n a tu r e , i t ’s t h e ty p e o f in f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e t e a m w o u l d h a v e a c tu a l ly u t il is e d t o e v e n c o m e u p with the r e c o m m e n d a ti o n on w hat we should be doing on J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i b e c a u s e i t a c t u a ll y ta lk s to is s u e s l ik e c a r g o lo a d s , th e s p li t o f r e v e n u e , s e a t c a p a c i ty, c a r g o r e v e n u e , p r o fi t a b i li ty, 20 market share. w o u ld have I t ’s t h e ty p e o f in f o r m a t i o n th a t t h e c o m m e r c i a l t e a m i n te r r o g a te d in coming up with th e p o s i ti o n on r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o n w h a t w e d o o n th e M u m b a i r o u t e . S o m y s e n s e i n t e r m s o f th is r e q u e s t is t h a t i t a c t u a l ly f e l t lik e , o h s o m e b o d y is g o i n g t o r e d o t h e a n a ly s is th a t h a s a lr e a d y b e e n d o n e b y S A A - b y t h e S A A t e a m w h ic h c o u ld o n ly i m p ly t h a t y o u d o n o t tr u s t w h a t y o u ’v e b e e n Page 163 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 provided. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r o r n o t t h is in f o r m a ti o n w a s in d e e d p r o v i d e d t o th e D G ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I w o u l d i m a g i n e th a t i t w a s , I d o n o t f u l ly r e c a l l a s I s a y b u t a n y r e q u e s t t h a t a c t u a l ly c a m e t h r o u g h a n d w a s a w r it t e n r e q u e s t t o th e o r g a n i s a t io n w e w o u l d a l w a y s r e s p o n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g i n C a p e To w n w h e r e th e J e t A i r w a y s r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s w e r e c a ll e d a t t h e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g , w e r e c a ll e d i n a t t h e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g , y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g 10 lik e t h e M i n is t e r s u g g e s t e d t h a t g o i n g f o r w a r d , t h e D G s h o u l d p l a y s o m e r o l e i n tr y in g t o h e l p S A A a n d J e t A ir w a y s t o r e a c h s o m e a g r e e m e n t , is t h a t r ig h t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h is le t t e r fr o m t h e D G m a y h a v e b e e n p u r s u a n t t o t h a t s u g g e s t io n b y th e M in is t e r ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : In d e e d C h a ir e x c e p t t h a t it s t il l s u r p r is e d m e in t e r m s o f th e l e v e l o f d e t a i l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t w a s r e q u e s t e d . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 CHAIRPERSON : What was Ye s . your understanding of what that s u g g e s t io n m e a n t i n t e r m s o f t h e r o le th a t t h e D G w a s g o i n g t o p la y, d i d y o u h a v e a c l e a r p i c tu r e o f w h a t t h e s u g g e s t io n i m p li e d h e w o u l d d o , w o u l d h e c a l l t h e p a r ti e s a n d c h a i r t h e m e e ti n g a n d tr y a n d g e t t h e m t o a g r e e , o r e x a c t ly w h a t h e w o u l d d o , w a s t h a t c l e a r t o y o u ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Th e M i n i s t e r, a t t h e m e e t i n g d i d Page 164 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 n o t m a k e i t v e r y c l e a r a s t o w h a t r o l e t h e D G w a s s u p p o s e d to p l a y b u t t h e w a y i n w h ic h I i n te r p r e t e d h is s ta t e m e n t o r h i m s a y i n g th a t t h e D G w i ll p la y a m u c h b ig g e r r o l e , is t o – I u n d e r s t o o d i t t h a t t h e D G w o u ld e n s u r e t h a t m e e ti n g s a r e t a k in g p l a c e a n d th a t w e a r e c o n ti n u i n g t o tr y a n d m a y b e s p e e d u p a r e s o lu t io n o n a p a r t n e r s h i p , n o t to a c tu a l ly g e t in v o lv e d in t h e a c t u a l a n a l y s is . CHAIRPERSON : O f c o u r s e y o u s a y o n t h e p a r tn e r s h ip , J e t A ir w a y s m a y h a v e b e e n s a y i n g o n t h e c l o s u r e o f t h e a ir li n e b u t t h e M i n is te r h a d u s e d p a r tn e r s h ip a t t h e m e e t i n g ? 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZ IMELA: N o t h e M i n i s t e r h a d ju s t s a id h e w a n ts J e t A i r w a y s a n d S A A t o f in d e a c h o t h e r. CHAIRPERSON : Okay thank you. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : And then just on closure of that Cape To w n m e e t i n g w h a t h a p p e n e d a f e w d a y s a f t e r t h a t m e e t in g h e l d i n C a p e To w n w h e r e S iy a b o n g a M a h la n g u - M r S i y a b o n g a M a h l a n g u h a d made these personal, verbal “attacks” on you? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : So what happened – because the m e e ti n g d i d n ’ t e n d v e r y w e l l a s y o u c a n i m a g i n e b u t a f e w d a y s l a t e r I g o t a c a ll fr o m M r M a h la n g u a n d h e a s k e d f o r u s t o a c tu a l ly m e e t v e r y 20 q u ic k ly a t th e I n te r c o n t in e n ta l a t t h e a ir p o r t , it ’s n o t f a r fr o m o u r o ff ic e s a n d I a g r e e d t o m e e t w i t h h i m , c u r io u s o f c o u r s e t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e m e e t in g w a s a l l a b o u t a n d a t t h a t m e e t in g h e b a s ic a lly – h e w a s a p o lo g i s i n g , s o h e c a m e a n d h e w a s s a y i n g h e w a n t e d to a c t u a l ly a p o lo g i s e b y t h e w a y h e h a n d l e d h i ms e lf a t t h e m e e ti n g , h e a c c e p t s t h a t i t w a s in c o r r e c t a n d i t w a s d is r e s p e c t f u l o f h i m t o a c tu a lly s p e a k t o Page 165 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 m e in t h e m a n n e r t h a t h e d i d b u t h e g o e s o n t o s a y th a t I n e e d t o u n d e r s t a n d t h o u g h t h a t h e w a s o n ly d o i n g h is jo b . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w h a t d i d y o u s a y a b o u t t h a t p a r t , t h a t h e w a s doing his job? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : C h a ir I j u s t l is te n e d to th a t I d i d n ’ t s a y a n y th i n g . I t h i n k o n t h e o n e l e v e l I a p p r e c ia t e d th e fa c t t h a t h e h a d a c tu a l ly c o m e t h r o u g h a n d a c k n o w l e d g e d t h a t h e n e e d e d t o a p o lo g i s e b u t I d i d n ’ t w a n t to g e t i n to a f u r th e r d is c u s s i o n a s to w h a t d o e s h e m e a n th a t h e w a s d o in g h is jo b . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: T h e n j u s t to c la r i fy w h a t y o u s t a t e i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t , M s M z i m e l a a t p a g e 2 4 p a r a g r a p h 6 2 . 1 , t h e l a s t s e n te n c e t h e r e i s t h a t, “ h e p e r s o n a l ly a p o lo g i s e d t o m e f o r h i s b a d b e h a v i o u r a n d in f o r m e d m e to t h e e ff e c t th a t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y, h e w a s ju s t d o i n g h i s j o b a n d a c t in g o n in s t r u c t i o n ” , D o e s t h a t p a r t o f y o u r s e n t e n c e r e m a i n t o b e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : W h a t t h a t h e w a s a c ti n g o n in s t r u c t i o n ? 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h o s e m a y n o t h a v e b e e n h is e x a c t w o r d s , t h a t ’s w h y I ’ m s a y i n g t h e g is t o f t h e – h is a p o l o g y t o m e t h a t h e w a s o n ly d o in g h is jo b a n d e s s e n t i a l ly w o r k i n g o n i n s tr u c ti o n t o d o w h a t h e d i d a t th e m e e ti n g o r to b e h a v e i n t h e m a n n e r t h a t h e d id a t t h e m e e ti n g . Page 166 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying, he might not have used the words, t h a t h e w a s a c ti n g o n i n s tr u c t i o n b u t w h a t e v e r w o r d s h e u s e d , y o u s a y, meant the same thing? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : CHAIRPERSON : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Ye s d i d y o u h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h o h e w a s t a lk in g a b o u t a s h a v in g g iv e n h i m a n in s tr u c t io n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: A s a p e r s o n w h o is a d v i s o r to t h e M i n is t e r m y a s s u m p ti o n w a s t h a t h e c a n o n ly b e t a k i n g in s t r u c t i o n fr o m h is b o s s w h o is th e M i n is t e r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : C a n w e th e n g o to p a g e 2 5 , p a r a g r a p h 6 9 a n d y o u t a lk a b o u t h e a d w a y t h a t i s t h e n m a d e b e t w e e n t h e t w o p a r t ie s , b e i n g S A A a n d J e t A ir w a y s . W h a t h a p p e n s o n th e 2 9 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 a n d t h e 1 4 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o a c c o r d i n g t o t h is , I m a k e th e p o i n t t h a t a t s o m e p o i n t , b e c a u s e w e c o n ti n u e d t o h a v e d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h J e t A i r w a y s th a t a t s o m e p o in t i n 2 0 11 J e t A ir w a y s c o n c e d e d to w h a t S A A w a s a c tu a lly p r o p o s in g a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s a le t t e r o f in t e n t t h a t w a s s ig n e d o n th e 2 9 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 a n d th a t o n t h e 1 4 t h o f 20 D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 th e tw o e n ti t ie s s i g n e d a n M O U t o e n t e r i n to a c o d e share agreement. W h a t is r e l e v a n t a t th is p o in t , i s t h a t a t th e p o i n t t h a t t h i s a c tu a l ly h a p p e n s , J e t Ai r w a y s h a s n o w t a k e n th e d e c i s i o n to t e r m in a t e t h e ir o p e r a ti o n s o n t h e M u m b a i /J o h a n n e s b u r g r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y M s S e p t e m b e r, I ’v e l o s t w h e r e y o u a r e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMB ER : Page 25 of the bundle paragraph 69 Page 167 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 w h ic h c o n t in u e s o n p a g e 2 6 . CHAIRPERSON : O k a y t h a n k y o u . S o J e t A ir w a y s c o n c e d e s s o m e ti m e d u r i n g la t e i n 2 0 11 t h a t – o r c o n c e d e d t o t h e o p t i o n o f c o d e - s h a r in g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : T h a n k y o u , is i t c o r r e c t t h a t c e r ta i n a p p r o v a l s m a y h a v e b e e n r e q u ir e d fo r fi n a li s a t io n o f a s e r v ic e l e v e l agreement between – a code-share agreement, sorry between Jet A ir w a y s a n d S A A ? 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I t h e c a s e , b y th e ti m e t h e a c t u a l c o d e - s h a r e a g r e e m e n t is b e in g c o n c lu d e d w i t h J e t A ir w a y s w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d , y o u ’ l l r e c a ll th a t I s a i d J e t A ir w a y s w a s – h a d c o m e o n t o th e r o u t e w a s o p e r a ti n g th e s e v e n fr e q u e n c i e s , t h e y th e n i n d i c a t e t o u s a s p a r t o f t h e d is c u s s io n s t h a t th e y ’r e lo o k in g t o p o s s i b l y r e c o n s i d e r t h e p o s i ti o n o n o p e r a ti n g o n J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i a n d in f a c t th e y t h e n m a k e t h e d e c i s i o n t o – t h e y i n i ti a lly a n n o u n c e d i t i n it i a ll y a s a s u s p e n s i o n o f t h e ir s e r v ic e f o r a p e r i o d o f t i m e b u t w e k n e w t h a t t h e y w e r e w i t h d r a w in g fr o m t h e r o u t e c o m p l e te ly. W h a t t h a t d o e s i s t h a t i t o b v i o u s l y c h a n g e s th e d y n a m i c s b e c a u s e w e h a v e c o m p e t it i o n r u le s 20 t h a t a c t u a ll y s ti p u l a t e th a t i f t h e r e is o n e c a r r ie r o n t h e – i f th e r e is o n e c a r r i e r o n t h e r o u t e a n d w e a r e b o th g o i n g t o c o d e - s h a r e , i n o r d e r t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t is n o t s e e n a s c o l lu s io n e s p e c i a l ly b e c a u s e th e y h a d o p e r a t e d – w e r e p u l li n g o u t in o r d e r t o c o d e - s h a r e w it h u s t h e r e w a s a n e e d , w e f e l t a s t h e S A A t e a m , t o g e t a n o p i n io n , fir s t ly t o s a y s h o u l d w e b e a p p l y i n g f o r a n e x e m p ti o n i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e c o d e - s h a r e Page 168 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 a g r e e m e n t w it h th e C o m p e ti t io n s C o m m i s s i o n o r n o t a n d a n o p i n io n w a s o b t a i n e d a n d it in d ic a t e d th a t , i n d e e d , w e s h o u l d a p p ly fo r a n e x e m p ti o n b e c a u s e w e ’ r e tr y i n g t o a v o i d f i n d i n g o u r s e l v e s w h e r e w e g e t fi n e d b y t h e C o m p e t it i o n s C o m m i s s i o n f o r h a v i n g b r o k e n a n y o f t h e rules. I think for those that remember what was happening around SAA a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f a n t i - c o m p e ti ti v e m a t t e r s t h a t S A A w a s d e a li n g w i th . S o w e w e r e b e in g e x tr e m e l y c a r e f u l in e n s u r i n g t h a t w e d o n o t fa ll f o u l o f t h e c o m p e t i ti o n is s u e s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : 10 A n d d i d t h i s th e n e v e n t u a ll y c u l m i n a te in a n a g r e e m e n t b e i n g c o n c lu d e d b e t w e e n t h e p a r ti e s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s it d id a n d i t d i d c u l m i n a te a n a g r e e m e n t b e in g c o n c l u d e d w h ic h i s a c o d e - s h a r e a g r e e m e n t w i t h S A A o p e r a ti n g th e r o u t e , J o h a n n e s b u r g / M u m b a i w i t h S A A b e n e f i ti n g f r o m t h a t b e h i n d a n d b e y o n d n e tw o r k o f J e t Ai r w a y s a n d l ik e w is e J e t A ir w a y s t h e n c o u l d p u t th e ir c o d e a s a m a r k e ti n g c a r r i e r, n o t o p e r a t in g c a r r i e r, as a m a r k e t in g c a r r ie r o n to th e SAA route from Mumbai to J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d to s o m e o f th e p o in ts in S o u t h A fr ic a . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i n t h e l e a d u p to th e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h is a g r e e m e n t w a s t h e r e a n y e n g a g e m e n t w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f 20 P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s a n d t h e D G i n p a r ti c u l a r in o r d e r to f a c ili t a t e processes? MS SIZAKELE PETUN IA MZIMELA: Indeed th e r e was an e n g a g e m e n t , a s I i n d ic a t e d t h a t w h e n w e r e c e iv e d th e o p i n i o n t h a t in d i c a t e d th a t i t w o u l d b e g o o d f o r u s , I m e a n , t o a p p ly f o r a n e x e m p ti o n fr o m t h e C o m p e t i ti o n s C o m m is s io n w e t h e n w r o t e t o t h e D G Page 169 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t o a s s i s t u s t o tr y a n d f a c i li t a te a q u ic k e r r e s p o n s e f r o m t h e C o m p e t it i o n C o m m is s i o n b e c a u s e w e h a d b e e n a d v is e d t h a t o r d in a r ily i t a c t u a ll y ta k e s a b o u t s ix to tw e lv e m o n th s to – s o m e ti m e s , t o g e t a r e s p o n s e b a c k fr o m t h e C o m p e t i ti o n C o m m is s io n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e n c a n I a s k y o u to p l e a s e tu r n t o page 148. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Ye s . I s th is t h e c o d e - s h a r in g a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s c o n c l u d e d b e t w e e n t h e p a r t ie s o n th e 1 s t o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 ? 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : That is correct. Is it c o r r e c t t h a t h is a g r e e m e n t w a s c o n c l u d e d s h o r tl y b e fo r e y o u l e f t t h e o r g a n is a t io n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Based on the date, indeed it was the case. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMB ER : And then can I ask you to please turn t o p a g e 1 8 0 a n d t h e r e a p p e a r s t o b e t h e s ig n a tu r e s o f t h e c o n tr a c t in g p a r t i e s , w h o s i g n e d o n b e h a l f o f S o u t h A f r i c a n A ir w a y s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h e p e r s o n t h a t s i g n e d o n b e h a lf o f S o u th A f r ic a n A i r w a y s is Mr T h e u n i s P o tg ie t e r w h o w a s th e G M o f 20 c o m m e r c ia l a t t h a t t i m e t o g e t h e r w i t h M a r k C a v a le u r w h o w a s t h e h e a d o f g lo b a l s a l e s a n d a l li a n c e s a t S o u t h A f r ic a n A ir w a y s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : And whose names appear as s ig n a to r i e s o n b e h a l f o f J e t A ir w a y s In d i a L i m i t e d ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : It s a y s h e r e a M r N ic o K a d a s s is ? a n d a R a j S iv a k h u m a ? I d o n ’ t k n o w th e m . Page 170 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d t h e n y o u h a v e a c t u a ll y b r o u g h t t h e f o l lo w i n g p a g e t o o u r a t te n ti o n a n d t h a t is o n p a g e 1 8 3 . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER: Ye s . C a n y o u p l e a s e in f o r m w h a t y o u r c o n c e r n w a s a r o u n d t h is p a r t ic u l a r p a g e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : M y c o n c e r n d i d n o t r e l a te o n l y t o p a g e 1 8 3 b u t it r e l a te d t o p a g e 1 8 1 t o 1 8 3 w h ic h is t h e A p p e n d ix A o f t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d w h a t I b r o u g h t to y o u r a tt e n ti o n is t h a t I c a n c o n f ir m t h a t t h is a g r e e m e n t w a s th e a g r e e m e n t th a t w a s s i g n e d b e c a u s e I k n o w 10 t h a t th is w a s t h e G M c o m m e r c ia l Th e u n is P o ti g i e t e r w h o w a s i n p l a c e w h e n I w a s a t S A A a n i n c h a r g e o f t h i s c o m m u n ic a ti o n b u t I h a d r a is e d a c o n c e r n i n r e l a ti o n t o p a g e 1 8 1 t o 1 8 3 w h ic h is A n n e x u r e 1 th a t f o r m s p a r t o f t h is a g r e e m e n t , s i m p ly b e c a u s e A n n e x u r e 1 i s n o w s ig n e d b y d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e t o t h e i n d iv id u a l s t h a t s i g n e d t h e r e s t o f t h e d o c u m e n t b e i n g T h e u n is P o tg i e t e r a n d M a r k C a v a le u r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Thank you and so because you r e s ig n e d i n O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 w h ic h is b u t a f e w d a y s la t e r, y o u w e r e n o t a w a r e o f h o w t h i s p a r ti c u la r a g r e e m e n t w a s i m p l e m e n te d , i s t h a t r i g h t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 CHAIRPERSON : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . B e fo r e w e t a l k a b o u t i m p le m e n t a ti o n , th e A n n e x u r e a b o u t w h ic h y o u h a v e e x p r e s s e d t h e c o n c e r n t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t a r ti c u la t e d , is th a t A n n e x u r e r e f e r r e d to in t h e a g r e e m e n t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I s e e th a t t h e r e is n o i n d i c a t io n o n th e p a g e – t h e la s t p a g e o f t h a t a n n e x u r e a s t o w h e n t h o s e w h o a p p e n d e d t h e ir Page 171 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 s ig n a tu r e s t h e r e a c t u a l ly a p p e n d e d t h e i r s i g n a t u r e s . Do we know w h e t h e r th a t a n n e x u r e w a s s i g n e d o n t h e s a m e d a y a s th e a c t u a l a g r e e m e n t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : p r e c i s e ly th a t . C h a ir w h a t I w a s r a is i n g w a s To s a y t h e r e is n o w a y th a t t h i s a n n e x u r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n s i g n e d o n t h e s a m e d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That the agreement was signed. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b e c a u s e s a m e p e o p l e w o u l d h a v e s ig n e d . 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Because – yes because had it b e e n s ig n e d o n t h e s a m e d a y t h e a c tu a l G M o f c o m m e r c ia l w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e o n e s i g n i n g t h is a n n e x u r e a s w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : A n d h e w i ll – a n d y o u w ill n o t e t h a t th e a n n e x u r e A t h e n g e ts s i g n e d b y a n a c ti n g G M o f c o m m e r c i a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Mr M anoj Papa. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A n d t h e p e r s o n w h o p p ’s w i th h i m 20 is a ls o n o t [i n d is t in c t ] s o m e b o d y p u ts a p p o n b e h a lf o f M a r k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o – s o y o u r p o in t is y o u h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t r e fe r s to a c e r ta i n a n n e x u r e ; MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. Page 172 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a g r e e m e n t is s i g n e d o n t h e s a m e – o n a c e r t a i n d a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a n n e x u r e is a ls o s i g n e d b u t t h e t w o a r e s i g n e d b y d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e , is t h a t r ig h t ? I t is n o t e v e r y b o d y w h o is d i ff e r e n t o r t h e – b u t s o m e a r e d i ff e r e n t ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Th e y a r e – t h e a n n e x u r e A i s s ig n e d b y t w o t o ta ll y d i ffe r e n t p e o p l e o n b e h a lf o f S A A . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : As opposed to the rest of the d o c u m e n t a n d th e r e s t o f t h e a n n e x u r e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t a r e a li g n e d to t h e d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s o y o u a r e a b le t o s a y n o t o n l y i n r e la t io n t o th e agreement but also when you compare with other annexures. So the o th e r a n n e x u r e s w e r e s ig n e d b y t h e p e o p le w h o s ig n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : T h i s is th e o n l y a n n e x u r e w h ic h h a s d i ff e r e n t s ig n a tu r e s , d i ff e r e n t p e o p le s i g n i n g o n b e h a l f o f S A A ? 20 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s a n d t h e n y o u s a y b a s e d o n t h a t c o u l d n o t h a v e been signed at the same time? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A t t h a t t i m e h a d y o u h a d a c h a n c e to s e e t h e a n n e x u r e A t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e b e e n p a r t o f th e a g r e e m e n t I Page 173 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ju s t w a n t t o s e e w h e t h e r i f y o u h a d s e e n it w h e th e r i t w a s d i ff e r e n t i n t e r m s o f c o n t e n t t o th is o n e th a t w e s e e n o w ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Um. C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e t a k e n n o te ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : N o C h a ir. Fr o m a S A A p e r s p e c t iv e t h e r e a s o n w h y i t is t h e r e th e G M o f c o m m e r c ia l a n d t h e h e a d o f G lo b a l S a le s a n d D e v e l o p m e n t a n d A ll ia n c e s w h o s i g n s th is b e c a u s e a t t h a t p o i n t t h e y d o h a v e I m e a n d e l e g a te d a u t h o r i ty to s ig n a g r e e m e n ts o n a n y th in g w h i c h is r e v e n u e e n h a n c i n g i n t h e ir s p a c e . S o I w o u l d h a v e 10 b e e n a w a r e f o r e x a m p le w h i c h i s w h a t I c o n fir m t h a t I a m a w a r e t h a t w e a c t u a ll y s ig n e d y o u k n o w t h e l e t te r s o r t h e M O I ’s a n d t h e le t t e r o f in t e n t a n d t h e M O I b u t t h e a c tu a l c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e a g r e e m e n t t h e t e a m w o u ld h a v e w o r k e d w i t h t h e ir r e s p e c t i v e d e p a r t m e n ts w i th i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n in t e r m s o f s e t ti n g o u t t h e d e ta il a l o n g t h e p r in c i p l e s t h a t h a d b e e n a g r e e d . S o I c a n n o t s a y t h i s is h o w th e fir s t a n n e x u r e l o o k e d lik e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : W i t h o u t a c t u a ll y h a v i n g i t i n fr o n t of me. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t b a s e d o n w h a t y o u k n e w t o b e t h e p r i n c i p l e s t h a t w e r e s u p p o s e d t o g u i d e y o u r t e a m i n w h e t h e r t o s i g n o r n o t to s i g n o r n e g o t ia t in g a n a g r e e m e n t a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e c o n te n ts o f t h is a n n e x u r e s i g n e d b y a te a m d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h e o n e th a t s ig n e d th e a g r e e m e n t w h e t h e r t h e c o n te n ts a p p e a r t o b e i n l in e w i t h t h o s e p r i n c i p le s o r is t h a t s o m e th in g t h a t y o u h a v e n o t h a d a c h a n c e t o Page 174 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 r e fl e c t o n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I c a n c o n f ir m C h a ir t h a t t h e y w o u ld b e li n e w i th t h e p r in c i p l e s b u t t h e d e t a il t h o u g h is i m p o r ta n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Because whenever we say s o m e t h i n g is r e c i p r o c a l i f I g iv e y o u a c c e s s t o J o h a n n e s b u r g – C a p e To w n – J o h a n n e s b u r g – C a p e To w n is a l o t m o r e v a l u a b le th a n Johannesburg – PE. CHAIRPERSON : Well… 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Fo r a r g u m e n t s a k e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m h a p p y y o u d id n o t s a y J o h a n n e s b u r g – D u r b a n . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I tr i e d to a v o id t h a t C h a ir. Is a l o t m o r e v a lu a b l e f o r m a y b e S A A t h a n J o h a n n e s b u r g – P E . So whenever w e t a lk a b o u t r e c ip r o c a l b e n e f i t y o u a ls o l o o k a t t h a t ty p e o f d e t a il . S o t h a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g i n te r ms o f t h e p r i n c i p le s o r b a s ic a lly s a y i n g w e p r o v i d e t h e m w i t h b e y o n d p o i n t o u t o f J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d e q u a l ly th e y d o s o o u t o f M u m b a i t h a t is c o r r e c t a n d i t i s h e r e a n d i t i s li n e . B u t th e a c t u a l d e t a i l w h i c h is th e n c o n t a in e d i n a n n e x u r e 1 I a m n o t t o o s u r e w h e t h e r i t is c o m p l e te ly a li g n e d b e c a u s e i t t h e n d e p e n d s o n w h i c h 20 r o u t e s w e g a v e fo r w h a t . CHAIRPERSON : S o w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t h e n t o s a y y o u a r e s i m p ly d r a w in g a t t e n t i o n t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h i s a n n e x u r e w a s s ig n e d b y a d i ff e r e n t t e a m o n th e s id e o f S A A t o th e te a m t h a t s i g n e d th e a g r e e m e n t a n d a l l t h e o t h e r a n n e x u r e s b u t w h e th e r i ts c o n te n ts – w h e t h e r th e r e i s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w i th t h e c o n t e n ts t h a t is s o m e t h i n g Page 175 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 you are not able to say? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : I t w o u l d b e g o o d to k n o w e v e n if b y w a y o f a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t i t w o u l d b e g o o d t o k n o w w h e t h e r i f y o u t a k e ti m e a ft e r t o d a y to h a v e a lo o k w h e t h e r y o u a r e a b l e t o d r a w my a tt e n ti o n t o a n y s i g n i fi c a n t – a n y t h in g s i g n i fi c a n t i n t e r m s o f w h a t y o u e x p e c te d a n d s o I s u g g e s t t h a t a t t h e e a r l i e s t o p p o r t u n i ty la t e r t o d a y o r 10 a ft e r to d a y g e t a c h a n c e t o h a v e a l o o k a n d b e i n t o u c h w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r a n d i f n e e d b e a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i t c a n b e p r e p a r e d t o s a y y o u h a v e h a d a l o o k th e s e a r e th e o b s e r v a t io n s y o u w a n t t o m a k e i f a n y. If th e r e a r e n o p a r tic u l a r o b s e r v a ti o n s y o u w a n t to h i g h l ig h t y o u c a n j u s t te ll th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r th a t y o u h a d a l o o k b u t t h e r e i s r e a lly n o t h in g y o u w a n t t o s a y. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : C h a ir I w o u l d li k e to a c tu a lly r a is e t h a t i t w o u l d b e i m p o s s i b le fo r m e t o b e a b l e t o d o th a t i n t h e a b s e n c e o f a c t u a ll y g e t t in g a c o p y o f t h e o r ig i n a l a n n e x u r e A s o t h a t I c a n l o o k t o s e e w h a t is t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e fir s t a n n e x u r e A a n d t h is o n e 20 here. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l y o u c a n a s k – y o u c a n if – I m e a n th e l e g a l t e a m c a n tr y a n d s e e i f th a t c a n b e f a c il i ta t e d . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o j u s t a s k th e m t o f a c i li ta t e y o u g e t ti n g t h a t . O k a y thank you. Page 176 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e w i ll c e r t a i n l y d o o u r b e s t t o tr y t o o b t a i n th e o r i g in a l i f o n e s o e x is ts . C h a ir a t t h i s p a r ti c u l a r … . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I t h i n k i t is i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e i t is q u e e r i f o n e a n n e x u r e o u t o f a n u m b e r o f a n n e x u r e s a n d th e a g r e e m e n t i s s ig n e d b y a d i ff e r e n t t e a m a n d a l l th e o t h e r s a n d t h e a g r e e m e n t a r e s i g n e d b y d i ff e r e n t – a n o th e r t e a m b u t i t m a y b e t h a t 1 . t h e r e i s n o p r o b le m w i th t h e c o n t e n t o r – a n d 2 . t h e r e i s a n e x p l a n a ti o n . Okay thank you. 10 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir t h is c o m m i s s io n w i ll r e c a ll b e f o r e w e m o v e o n t o th e n e x t to p i c th a t e v id e n c e w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e i t b y t h e w i tn e s s o f M s Vy tj i e M e n to r a n d th a t w a s o n t h e 2 7 o r 2 8 A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 w h e r e s h e s p e c i fi c a ll y h e r v e r s i o n o n m a t te r s r e l a ti n g to t h e M u m b a i r o u te . A n d i n t h i s r e g a r d I w o u ld li k e t o a s k M s M z i m e l a f ir s t ly b e f o r e I a d v a n c e t h e s u m m a r y t h a t I h a v e p u t t o g e t h e r o f t h a t e v id e n c e i f y o u a r e a w a r e t h a t M r Vy t ji e M e n to r h a d g i v e n e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h is c o m m i s s i o n in r e l a ti o n t o th e M u m b a i r o u t e . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s I a m a w a r e . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : 20 Chair in my own words having c o n s i d e r e d th e e v i d e n c e i t is u n d e r s to o d t h a t w h e n M s Vy t ji e M e n t o r a tt e n d e d th e r e s id e n c e o f t h e G u p t a ’s s h e w a s o ffe r e d b y M r A j a y G u p t a t h e p o s it i o n o f M i n is t e r o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s i n t h e r e c e n t f u t u r e w h e n th e Pr e s i d e n t w a s g o i n g t o r e s h u ff l e t h e c a b i n e t . M i n is t e r B a r b a r a H o g a n w a s g o in g t o b e r e s h u ffl e d . At that time S h e – M in is t e r H o g a n b e i n g th e i n c u m b e n t to th a t p o s i ti o n . Ms Vy tj i e M e n t o r i n f o r m e d Page 177 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h a t s h e w o u l d b e c o m e M i n is t e r i f s h e a g r e e d t o a b o l is h t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n In d i a S o u t h A f r ic a r o u te . S h e a l s o in f o r m e d th a t w h e n s h e w a s a s k e d – w h e n s h e a s k e d s o r r y – w h e n Ms M e n to r a s k e d M r G u p t a a b o u t w h a t w o u ld h a p p e n t o p a s s e n g e r s a n d c a r g o f o r t h a t r o u t e M r G u p t a in f o r m e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l – y e s w e l l w h y d o y o u n o t – i f t h e r e is s o m e th in g t o p u t t o th is w it n e s s w h y d o y o u n o t j u s t p u t i t to t h e w i t n e s s t o s a y i f you want her comment. I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r a n y th in g t h a t M s M e n t o r s a i d th a t m a y h a v e r e l a t e d t o t h i s w i tn e s s b u t i t is a lo n g t i m e a g o 10 m a y b e I h a v e fo r g o tt e n I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a i r t h e n I w i ll … CHAIRPERSON : I s t h e r e a n y t h in g t h a t i n h e r e v i d e n c e t h a t n e e d s t o b e p u t t o th is w i t n e s s ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir i n f a c t I w o u l d lik e h e r t o c o m m e n t o n t h e v e r s i o n t h a t h a d b e e n p r e s e n te d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k j u s t g o s t r a i g h t to it . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : I w ill d o th a t t h e n . Ms M z i m e la i t w a s t h e e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n t h a t M s Vy t ji e M e n t o r w h e n a tt e n d i n g th e r e s i d e n c e o f t h e G u p ta ’s w a s o ff e r e d b y M r A j a y G u p ta 20 t h e p o s i ti o n o f t h e M i n is te r o f P u b lic E n t e r p r i s e s in t h e r e c e n t fu t u r e w h e n th e P r e s i d e n t w a s g o i n g t o r e s h u ff le c a b i n e t . It w a s a l s o h e r e v i d e n c e t h a t M in is t e r B a r a b a r a H o g a n a t t h e ti m e w a s g o i n g t o b e r e s h u ffl e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I t h i n k y o u s t a r ti n g fa r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Sorry? Page 178 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k s ta r t m u c h c l o s e r t o w h e r e y o u m u s t a s k h e r. I t h i n k y o u s t a r ti n g f a r a t t h e b a c k . W h a t d id s h e s a y, w h a t d i d M s M e n to r s a y t h a t c o n c e r n s t h i s w it n e s s ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir t h e v e r s i o n th a t I w is h t o p u t t o t h is w i t n e s s f o r c o m m e n t i s m o r e s o a b o u t th e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s a n d w h e t h e r o r n o t s h e h a s a n y c o m m e n ts t o t h e v e r s io n th a t h a d b e e n p u t . CHAIRPERSON : W h a t is t h e s e q u e n c e t h a t is i m p o r t a n t fo r t h is w i t n e s s to c o m m e n t o n ? I s t h e r e a n y t h in g th a t t h i s w i tn e s s h a s s a i d i n t e r m s o f s e q u e n c e t h a t is in c o n s is t e n t w i t h th e s e q u e n c e th a t w a s g i v e n 10 by Ms Mentor? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : E x c u s e m e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h e r e a n y s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts t h a t h a s b e e n g iv e n b y t h is w i t n e s s t h a t is in c o n s is t e n t w i t h t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts t h a t w a s g iv e n b y M s M e n to r. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o C h a i r b u t w e d o b e l ie v e th a t t h i s w i t n e s s h a s c o m m e n t t o th e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s w h a t is i t t h a t is w h a t I w a n t to know? W h a t d i d s h e s a y t h a t is M s M e n t o r t h a t y o u th i n k is in c o n s is t e n t w i t h w h a t t h e w it n e s s h a s s a i d ? 20 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M s M e n t o r – in a n u t s h e l l M s M e n t o r w a s o ff e r e d th e p o s i t io n o f t h e M in is t e r o f P u b li c E n te r p r is e s o n t h e b a s is t h a t s h e s t o p s t h e S o u t h A f r i c a a n d M u m b a i r o u t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h is w i t n e s s [ n o t s p e a k i n g i n to m i c r o p h o n e ] A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I a c c e p t t h a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 179 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : Th e n e x t p o in t is th a t M s B a r b a r a H o g a n w a s t h e i n c u m b e n t o f t h e p o s i ti o n a t t h e ti m e w h ic h a c c o r d s w i t h t h is p a r ti c u la r w i tn e s s ’ e v i d e n c e d u r i n g h e r t e n u r e a s G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s y o u d o n o t w a n t t o p u t w h a t is c o n s is t e n t w i th what she has said. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : H a v i n g s a i d th a t t h e r e w a s a ls o e v i d e n c e g iv e n th a t M r G u p t a i n f o r m e d M s M e n to r w h e n a s k e d a b o u t w h a t is t o h a p p e n t o t h e p a s s e n g e r a n d c a r g o t h a t Mr G u p t a i n f o r m e d 10 t h a t th e y w e r e i n p a r t n e r s h i p w it h a n a ir li n e J e t A ir w a y s a n d t h a t t h e y w o u ld s e e to t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M s M e n t o r r e j e c t e d t h e o ff e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t w h a t d o e s t h a t h a v e t o d o w i t h th is w i t n e s s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d M r M a lu s i G ig a b a … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s t h e q u e s ti o n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h a t d o e s th a t h a v e to d o w i th t h i s w i tn e s s , t h e e v i d e n c e o f th is w i t n e s s ? 20 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h i s w i t n e s s is c e r t a i n l y p o i s e d t o b e in a p o s i t io n to s h a r e w i t h t h is c o m m is s i o n h e r o b s e r v a t io n s b a s e d o n h e r e n g a g e m e n t w it h t h e m i n i s t r y in r e l a ti o n t o t h is r o u t e a n d to th e e x t e n t th a t s h e c a n o ffe r h e r o b s e r v a t io n s s p e c i f ic to h e r r o l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o b s e r v a t i o n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : We would appreciate… Page 180 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s s h e h a s to l d u s a b o u t t w o m e e t in g s th a t s h e a tt e n d e d w h ic h i n v o lv e d t h e M i n is te r a n d w h e r e th e is s u e o f t h e M u m b a i r o u t e w a s d is c u s s e d . S o fa r I a m n o t u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t i t i s t h a t y o u w a n t to p u t t o h e r ? Is th e r e s o m e t h i n g th a t M s M e n t o r s a i d w h ic h is i n c o n s is te n t w i t h w h a t t h is w i t n e s s h a s s a i d o r is t h e r e s o m e t h i n g e ls e th a t s h e s a i d w h ic h m i g h t n o t b e i n c o n s i s te n t w i t h w h a t t h is w i t n e s s h a s s a i d b u t w h ic h y o u w o u l d l ik e t h i s w i tn e s s t o s e e w h e t h e r s h e c a n c o n f ir m ? ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : 10 L e t m e a s k th e q u e s ti o n t h e n d i ff e r e n t ly th r o u g h y o u C h a ir. M s M z i m e la w a s t h e r e a n y p e c u l i a r i ty in y o u r e x p e r i e n c e a n d o b s e r v a t i o n s w h e n e n g a g i n g w i t h M in is t e r G ig a b a a n d h is o ff ic e s p e c if ic t o t h e f o c u s o n t h e M u m b a i r o u te a n d i ts c lo s u r e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : C h a ir I t h i n k I h a v e a lr e a d y h i g h l ig h te d th e f a c t th a t I d i d fi n d i t s t r a n g e a s t o a m o u n t o f a t te n ti o n t h a t th is r o u t e w a s b e i n g g iv e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : A n d f r o m t h e M i n is tr y i n th e c o n te x t o f a ll o f t h e o t h e r r o u t e s 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : s ig n if ic a n t t o S A A t h a t i s th e o n e . T h a t w e r e p r o b a b ly a lo t m o r e I d i d e q u a l ly fi n d i t s tr a n g e t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m u c h u r g e n c y e a c h ti m e t h a t w e n e e d e d t o b e – in r e s p o n s e t o is s u e s r e la t in g to t h is m a t t e r. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. Page 181 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . W e t h e n n o w o n p a g e 2 9 w h e r e y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e M i n is t e r ’s a d v is o r i n p a r tic u la r M s Si y a b o n g a Mahlangu. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : 8 2 u n ti l 8 5 o n p a g e 3 1 . Yo u a d d r e s s h is c o n d u c t fr o m p a g e C a n y o u e x p l a in M r S iy a b o n g a M a h l a n g u ’s in v o lv e m e n t i n t h e o p e r a t io n s o r th e w o r k in g s o f S A A r e l a t iv e t o th e p o s i ti o n th a t h e h a d ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 10 S o C h a ir I h a d a c t u a l ly in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n th e a d v is o r s d u r i n g M s H o g a n ’s t i m e a n d M r G i g a b a ’s t i m e is t h a t w e h a r d l y s a w t h e a d v i s o r s . W e o n l y s a w th e m w h e n t h e M i n is te r w a s a c tu a l ly p r e s e n t . A n d th e d i ff e r e n c e w i t h Mr S iy a b o n g a M a h la n g u is a d v i s o r t o th e M i n is t e r is th a t h e s e e m e d t o h a v e a v e r y k e e n i n te r e s t o n S A A’s o p e r a ti o n s a n d i n p a r ti c u l a r t h e procurement sid e. I n my a ffi d a v i t I a c tu a lly g iv e t w o e x a m p l e s w h ic h c o n fir m s o m e o f t h a t u n u s u a l b e h a v i o u r. A n d t h e fir s t b e in g i n r e la t io n to an IT procurement tender where he seemed to have a very keen in t e r e s t a s t o y o u k n o w h o w t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w a s b e in g h a n d l e d a n d I m a k e t h e p o i n t a s w e ll t h a t h is a p p r o a c h w o u l d a l w a y s b e 20 o n t h e b a s is o f i n d i c a t in g t h a t h e is o n l y tr y i n g t o r e s p o n d to q u e r i e s t h a t h a v e b e e n r a is e d b y b l a c k o w n e d c o m p a n ie s w h o f e e l t h a t t h e y a r e b e i n g e x c l u d e d fr o m s o m e o f t h e s e t e n d e r s . I in p a r tic u l a r – a n d I – i n m y d o c u m e n ts I i n d ic a te t h a t my r e s p o n s e to h i m a l w a y s w a s t h a t a n d e s p e c i a l ly i n r e la t io n to th e I T t e n d e r. Fir s t ly e v e n I h a d t o g o b a c k t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t w a s h e t a l k i n g a b o u t b e c a u s e i t is n o t a s if I w o u l d Page 182 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 a c t u a ll y p a y p a r t ic u l a r i n t e r e s t a n d o n a n y th in g w h i c h p a r t o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d w a s a b le t o s a y h e n e e d s t o b e j u s t t o c l a r i fy S A A’s p o s i ti o n th a t i t i s n o t a b o u t tr y i n g to e x c l u d e b l a c k o w n e d c o m p a n i e s t h a t s o m e t i m e s i t is a m a t t e r o f w h a t e v e r i s a c tu a l ly r e q u ir e d b e i n g a v e r y s p e c ia li s e d s y s te m . I t mi g h t c o m e a c r o s s t o p e o p l e w h o d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w e a r e j u s t s i m p ly l o o k i n g f o r a n I T s y s te m b u t t h e t y p e o f te n d e r t h a t h e h a d a n in t e r e s t o n w a s a n I T p l a t fo r m t h a t b a s ic a l ly s u p p o r ts p a s s e n g e r b o o k i n g s a n d s o f o r t h h i g h ly s p e c i a lis e d . 10 S o t h a t w a s m y o n e r e s p o n s e t o h i m in a s s is t in g o r a tt e m p t in g to a s s is t h i m t o r e s p o n d to t h e i s s u e s t h a t h e r a is e s t h a t it is b la c k o w n e d c o m p a n ie s t h a t a r e c o m p l a i n i n g t h a t S A A is e x c lu d in g t h e m fr o m th e p r o c e s s . B u t I e q u a ll y in d i c a te d t h a t I – fr o m a p e r s o n a l p e r s p e c t iv e th a t I d o n o t g e t in v o lv e d i n g o o d c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e is s u c h th a t th e r e a r e c e r t a in p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s t h a t a r e i n p la c e t o e n s u r e th a t w e f o l lo w th e r i g h t p r o c e s s e s a n d th e r e is c o m p l e te tr a n s p a r e n c y on how is s u e s are processed by the procurement d e p a r t m e n t. A n d o n e o f th o s e is t o e n s u r e t h a t e v e n a p e r s o n l ik e m e w h o is th e G r o u p C E O a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e d o n o t g e t i n v o lv e d in w h o is g o i n g y o u k n o w b e i n g c h o s e n . Yo u o n ly g e t in v o lv e d a t t h e p o i n t a t 20 w h ic h s o m e o n e c o m e s w i t h a r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o b e s i g n e d o ff a n d e v e n t h e n p r o v i d e d t h a t i t i s a b o v e t h e ir d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i ty f o r a p p r o v a l . I f i t i s o n e o f t h o s e t h a t r e q u ir e s G r o u p C E O a p p r o v a l t h e n i t w o u ld m a k e it t o my t a b l e a n d a t th a t p o i n t I t h e n n e e d t o a p p ly my m i n d i n e n s u r in g f o ll o w th e c o r r e c t p r o c e s s e s a n d I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t w a s th e b a c k g r o u n d fo r t h e m t o r e c o m m e n d w h o e v e r i t i s th e y a r e Page 183 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 r e c o m m e n d i n g a t th a t p o in t i n t i m e . S o th a t w a s m y r e s p o n s e b u t I b r i n g t h i s a n d I i n c l u d e t h is h e r e b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t I m e a n t h e o n ly ti m e t h a t h e s e e m e d t o h a v e r e a ll y I m e a n a b i g i n te r e s t o n p r o c u r e m e n t w i th in t h e S A A s p a c e . I a ls o m a k e p a r t ic u l a r r e f e r e n c e t o f e e d b a c k th a t I h a d r e c e iv e d fr o m A d v o c a t e C o e t z e e w h o a ls o h a d a tt e n d e d a m e e ti n g r e l a t i n g t o s e t t in g u p a p a n e l o f l a w y e r s f o r t h e S O C ’s o r t h e r e h a d b e e n a m e e ti n g c a ll e d b y t h e S O C h e a d s a g a i n i t w a s o n t h e b a s i s t h a t t h e b l a c k l e g a l p r o f e s s io n w a s r a is in g c o n c e r n s t h a t th e y a r e n o t b e in g g iv e n e q u a l o p p o r t u n i ty w i th r e g a r d t o s o m e o f 10 t h e w o r k t h a t i s b e i n g u n d e r ta k e n o n th e S O C ’s . A n d h e r f e e d b a c k to m y s e l f is th a t t h e m e e ti n g w h i c h w a s m e e ti n g o f a l l o f t h e S O C l e g a l in d i v i d u a ls a c c e p t e d th a t p o s i ti o n a n d r e s p o n d e d t o b a s ic a lly s a y i n g y e s b e c a u s e a l l o f u s w o u ld a l w a y s b e g e a r e d i n t e r m s o f t r y in g t o d o o u r b i t in t r a n s f o r m i n g s o m e o f th o s e a r e a s t h a t i t w o u l d b e s o m e th i n g w h ic h w o u ld b e a k e y fo c u s a r e a . B u t s h e i n s h a r in g h e r f e e d b a c k w i th m e r a i s e d th a t s h e w a s t h o u g h q u it e s u r p r is e d a t t h a t v e r y m e e t in g b e c a u s e w h e n h e r p e o p l e i n t h e m e e t in g s a i d w e a r e h a p p y t o a c tu a lly s u p p o r t th e i n i ti a ti v e a n d h a v e a lw a y s b e e n a l i g n e d t o tr y a n d i m p r o v e t h e tr a n s fo r m a ti o n h o w e v e r w h a t e v e r g e ts d o n e m u s t b e d o n e a c c o r d in g 20 t o i n te r n a l p r o c e s s e s . T h a t i t is a t th a t p o in t t h a t M r M a h la n g u s e e m e d t o g e t q u it e u p s e t a n d h e to o k o v e r t h e c h a ir i n g o f t h a t m e e ti n g b e c a u s e h e w a s n o t c h a i r i n g t h a t m e e ti n g t o s a y n o , n o , n o h e i s n o t v e r y h a p p y w i t h p e o p l e n o w t e l li n g h i m th a t t h e y w o u l d s ti ll n e e d t o g o b a c k i n t o th e i r s y s t e m s to e n s u r e th a t w h a t e v e r th e y d o i t is n o t b r e a k i n g a n y g o v e r n a n c e n o t b r e a k i n g a n y c o m p li a n c e is s u e s w i t h i n Page 184 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h e ir o w n o r g a n is a ti o n s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : Before you move onto the next paragraph at 85 on page 30. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER : C h a i r t h e a ffi d a v i t o f A d v o c a t e S a n d r a C o e tz e e w h ic h t a l k s t o t h e s e e x p e r i e n c e s t h a t s h e h a d w i t h S iy a b o n g a – M r S iy a b o n g a M a h l a n g u is a t p a g e 2 2 1 t o 2 2 p a r a g r a p h s 2 2 t o 2 5 . P le a s e c o n t i n u e a t p a r a g r a p h 8 5 M s Mz i m e la . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 10 I a l s o C h a ir I c a n d e t a i l th a t M r M a h l a n g u in p a r ti c u la r w a s a l w a y s I m e a n o n e o f t h o s e p e o p le t h a t w o u ld a c t u a l ly a c c u s e m e o f s a y in g y o u k n o w y o u a r e n o t a te a m p l a y e r. Yo u a r e n o t a te a m p l a y e r w h a t e v e r t h a t a c tu a lly m e a n t y o u k n o w I m e a n t o h i m a n d i t s e e m e d l ik e t h e b i g g e r p r o b l e m t h a t h e h a d o r m e b e i n g d e s c r i b e d a s a t e a m p l a y e r i s t h a t h e w a s r a is in g i s s u e s t h a t w e r e n e v e r t h e – a s I i n d ic a t e d u n d e r B a r b a r a H o g a n ’s t i m e w h e n e v e r t h e r e w a s a r e q u e s t t o t h e o r g a n is a t io n i t w o u l d b e i n w r i ti n g . W h a t w e fo u n d w h ic h w a s d i ff e r e n t i n – u n d e r t h e t h e n M in is t e r w a s t h a t a l l o f a s u d d e n w e s t a r te d to g e t a l l o f t h e s e v e r b a l r e q u e s ts f o r in f o r m a ti o n w h i c h m a d e u s v e r y u n c o m f o r t a b l e b e c a u s e th a t w a s n o t 20 t h e w a y i n w h i c h w e w e r e u s e d t o o p e r a t in g . S o a s a r e s u lt in m o s t in s t a n c e s w e w o u l d fi n d o u r s e lv e s c o n fir m i n g i n w r i ti n g fr o m t h e S A A s id e t h e d is c u s s io n s t h a t h a d b e e n h e l d w it h a n y o f t h e o ff ic i a ls w i t h i n D P E a n d h e s e e m e d to t a k e i s s u e w i th t h a t t h a t w e a l w a y s w a n t t o r e d u c e t h e s e d is c u s s i o n s i n t o w r it i n g b e c a u s e it w o u l d r e a l ly b e e i th e r m y s e l f o r t h e t e a m t o j u s t b a s ic a l ly s a y j u s t in s u m m a r y a s p e r t h e Page 185 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 d is c u s s io n th a t w e h a d th e f o ll o w i n g w a s r a i s e d b y y o u r s e l f a n d th is i s o u r p o s it i o n w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e s e m a tt e r s . CHAIRPERSON : A n d y o u ju s t w a n t e d to h a v e a r e c o r d o f w h a t h a d b e e n d is c u s s e d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I n d e e d C h a ir b e c a u s e th e l e v e l – t h e r e a s o n w h y w e w e r e u n c o m f o r t a b l e f ir s tl y t h e y w e r e b e g in n i n g – e s p e c i a l ly w h e n i t c o m e s t o p r o c u r e m e n t is s u e s . For us it was i m p o r t a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t is a c t u a ll y d o c u m e n t e d b e c a u s e it w a s u n u s u a l fo r a p e r s o n li k e M r S iy a b o n g a M a h l a n g u t o b e r e q u e s ti n g t h e 10 ty p e o f i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t h e w a s r e q u e s t in g . Ev e n i f i t w a s g u i d e d in h i s v ie w b y g o o d i n t e n ti o n s o f e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s a c h a n g e o r i m p r o v e m e n t in t h e p a r tic i p a t io n o f b l a c k I m e a n in d iv i d u a ls . S o i t w a s i m p o r t a n t t o a c t u a ll y p u t th a t i n w r it i n g . I t w a s a ls o a n is s u e w h e r e th e o r g a n i s a t io n h a d n o p r o b le m w i t h th a t a n d i n f a c t w e h a d a b o a r d t h a t it s e l f w o u l d a lw a y s b e q u i t e c o n s id e r a t e o f h o w w e w e r e tr y i n g to d o o u r b i t i n tr a n s f o r m i n g e a c h o f th e a r e a s i n o u r b u s i n e s s . S o fo r m e it w a s a li t tl e b i t u n c o m f o r t a b l e t o b e h a v i n g a d i s c u s s io n w h i c h th e b o a r d w o u ld n o t b e p r iv y t o e s p e c ia ll y b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o r e c o r d o f th is d is c u s s io n 20 or these d is c u s s i o n s th a t we are h a v in g with th e d e p a r t m e n t. A n d t h e r e f o r e i t w a s i m p o r t a n t to b e a b le t o p u t in w r i t in g t h e is s u e s th a t w e r e r a is e d b u t e q u a ll y t o p u t i n w r i ti n g w h a t o r v ie w p o i n t w a s in r e g a r d t o t h a t . O t h e r w is e w e w o u l d p r o b a b l y n o t b e p o r t r a y i n g t h e o r g a n i s a t io n c o r r e c tl y in b e in g a c c u s e d o f n o t f o c u s s i n g o n tr a n s f o r m a ti o n is s u e s a n d y e t w e w e r e . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. Page 186 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : Page 31 from paragraph 86 you d o c u m e n t t h e e v e n t s w h i c h le d to y o u r r e s i g n a ti o n . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ja. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Can you please… C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa i t I a m s o r r y M s S e p t e m b e r m a y b e th is m i g h t b e a n o p p o r t u n e ti m e t o t a k e a s h o r t b r e a k , c o m f o r t b r e a k . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b l e m C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : I t w il l j u s t b e t e n m i n u t e s s o w e w il l r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t fo u r. M s M z i m e l a y o u m a y o r m a y n o t h a v e h a d i n m i n d t h a t w e 10 w o u ld fi n i s h a t fo u r w h a t is y o u r s i t u a ti o n if w e c o n t in u e b e y o n d f o u r t o tr y a n d fi n is h y o u r e v id e n c e ? Is t h a t fi n e w i t h y o u ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s C h a ir I w o u l d r e a l ly lik e t o request that we do. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d p r e f e r th a t? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Fi n is h to d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . O k a y l e t u s t a k e t h e s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t . We adjourn. REGISTRAR: All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S 20 I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Ms Mzimela b e fo r e the short a d j o u r n m e n t y o u w e r e a b o u t t o a d d r e s s t h e s i t u a t io n o f t h e B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s d u r i n g t h e y e a r o f 2 0 1 2 . C a n y o u p le a s e p r o c e e d to d o s o ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o w h a t I – C h a i r is t h a t d u r i n g – I m e a n - 2 0 1 2 t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n th e B o a r d , M a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e Page 187 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M i n is tr y b e c a m e m o r e a n d m o r e d i ffi c u l t a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d t h e B o a r d c h a n g e d i n t h e m e a n ti m e o r w a s i t s ti ll t h e s a m e B o a r d t h a t w a s t h e r e w h e n y o u s t a r te d a s C E O i n 2 0 1 0 ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I t w a s t h e s a m e B o a r d C h a ir. It w a s t h e s a m e B o a r d b u t I th in k t h e s a m e B o a r d s ta r te d t o fe e l m o r e a n d m o r e t h e fr u s tr a ti o n s b e t w e e n r e p o r t in g to t h e p r e v i o u s M in is tr y a n d r e p o r ti n g t o th e – t o t h e th e n M i n i s t r y a t th a t p o i n t in t i m e b e c a u s e t h e y d id n o t s e e m t o b e – le t m e n o t s a y - a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e u r g e n c y o n s o m e o f th e m a t te r s b u t ju s t t o u s e t h e e x a m p le e v e n o f 10 M u m b a i t h a t t h e r e w a s a l o t o f a t t e n t i o n p a i d – p a i d t o m a tt e r s s u c h a s t h a t w h i c h w e r e o f le a s t p r i o r i ty a n d a l l o f t h e o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t r e q u ir e d a lo t m o r e u r g e n t a t t e n t i o n w e r e n o t g e t t in g p r o p e r r e s p o n s e s in r e l a ti o n t o t h a t a n d a n u m b e r o f th e B o a r d M e m b e r s a c tu a lly s t a r t e d to c o m p la i n b e c a u s e t h e y f e l t th a t t h e y w e r e q u i t e s u s p ic i o u s a n d t h a t is t h e w a y t h e y w e r e – q u i t e s u s p ic io u s o f D P E s m o t iv e s a n d d e la y i n g s o m e o f t h e s e c r i t ic a l d e c i s i o n s t h a t n e e d e d t o – t o b e p u t in t o p l a c e . O v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t t h e r e w o u ld – s u d d e n l y w e h a d a n u m b e r o f t h e s e n e g a t iv e m e d i a s t o r i e s b e i n g - a n d i n o u r v i e w a t l e a s t - y o u k n o w – fr o m o n e o r t w o o f t h e B o a r d M e m b e r s t h e v i e w w a s t h a t a l o t o f 20 it c o u ld o n ly h a v e c o m e fr o m D P E b e c a u s e w e w o u ld n o r m a lly s h a r e w h e r e w e w e r e o r th e c h a ll e n g e s t h a t w e h a d w i t h t h e s h a r e h o l d e r r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s a n d w e t h o u g h t it w a s in – i n c o n fi d e n c e in t e r m s o f w h e r e th e o r g a n is a ti o n w a s b u t w e w a k e u p th e fo ll o w i n g d a y o r t w o d a y s la t e r i t a c t u a l ly h a s m a d e t h e n e w s a n d s o m e – a n d m o s t in s t a n c e s a ls o ta k e n o u t o f c o n t e x t . Page 188 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 I k n o w t h a t i t m a y n o t b e f a ir t o s a y t h a t b u t i t ju s t – y o u k n o w – w h e n t h a t h a p p e n s o b v i o u s l y a s a B o a r d y o u b e g in to – t o q u e s t io n to s a y a r e th o s e a c t u a lly c o m i n g fr o m th e B o a r d i ts e l f o r a r e t h e y c o m i n g e ls e w h e r e b e c a u s e t h e o n l y o t h e r p e o p l e w h o w e w o u l d h a v e h a d t h o s e d is c u s s i o n s w i t h w o u ld a c t u a lly b e t h e M i n i s tr y – s o to speak. Ve r y s p e c i f ic a l ly th e r e w a s a ls o l ik e a l o t o f n o i s e in t h e m e d i a a b o u t a d e l a y in t h e A G M a n d t h e – w h a t w a s p u t i n th e p u b lic s p a c e w a s t h a t th e A G M is b e in g d e l a y e d b e c a u s e t h e o r g a n is a ti o n h a s 10 n o t s u b m i tt e d i ts a n n u a l f i n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n ts o n ti m e a n d th a t w a s n o t tr u e . A n n u a l fi n a n c i a l s ta t e m e n ts h a d b e e n d e l iv e r e d o n ti m e a n d t h e r e i s a r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t w h e n y o u d o s u b m i t y o u r a n n u a l fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n t t h e – y o u – t h a t t h e M i n i s t r y w o u l d s i g n a n d t h e r e w o u l d b e p r o o f t h a t t h e y w e r e d e l iv e r e d o n t i m e b e c a u s e i f n o t t h e n o b v i o u s l y th e e x t e r n a l a u d i t o r s w o u l d fi n d t h a t y o u h a v e – y o u w o u l d h a v e a f i n d in g a g a in s t n o t m e e t in g – I m e a n – t h e d e a d l in e s . S o i t h a d b e e n s u b m it t e d a n d I t h i n k t h i s fo r m e d p a r t o f m y C h a ir ’s s u b m is s i o n t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n – w h ic h i s Ms C h e r y l C a r o l u s – I 20 w o u ld i m a g i n e t h a t s h e w o u l d h a v e a c t u a ll y t o u c h e d o n t h a t . T h o s e a r e ju s t e x a m p l e s o f is s u e s w h e r e i t ju s t b e c a m e m o r e a n d m o r e d i ffi c u l t t o d o w h a t n e e d e d to b e d o n e i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d t h e a d d e d d i m e n s i o n w a s t h a t – a s I in d ic a t e – th a t it a c tu a lly f e l t a s i f w e w e r e t h e n h a v i n g to r e s p o n d i n t h e p u b l ic s p a c e b u t t o t h i n g s t h a t w e r e fir s tly u n tr u e a n d s e c o n d ly th e r e w a s a fe e l in g t h a t t h e y a c t u a ll y c a m e Page 189 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 fr o m th e M i n is tr y i ts e lf b e c a u s e i n c e r t a i n in s ta n c e s th e M i n is tr y w a s being quoted as saying they had not – they postponed the AG M b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e n o t r e c e i v e d a n y fi n a n c ia l s t a te m e n t s a n d y e t th e y have. T h i s is a t t h e p o i n t a t w h ic h th e n t h e – t h e B o a r d … CHAIRPERSON : o n ly be th e Wa s – d i d – d i d e it h e r t h e B o a r d – I g u e s s i t c o u l d Board because I would imagine t h a t th e CEO or M a n a g e m e n t w o u l d n o t g o d ir e c t ly to t h e M in is tr y – t o t h e M i n i s t e r … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u c o u l d – y o u c o u l d li a i s e w i t h y o u r c o u n t e r p a r t – the DG? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D i d y o u o r th e B o a r d e v e r r a is e t h e s e is s u e s w i th t h e M i n i s tr y t o s a y t h is is w h a t w e a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t m a t t e r s t h a t a r e c o m i n g o u t in t h e – i n t h e m e d i a b u t w e d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d h o w th e m e d i a w o u ld h a v e k n o w n a b o u t t h e s e b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e m a t t e r s t h a t h a v e b e e n s h a r e d o n l y b e t w e e n u s a n d th e M i n is tr y a n d i f y o u d i d r a is e them – those concerns – what – what was the response? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Chair I cannot speak on behalf of 20 t h e B o a r d a n d w h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e a c t u a lly r a is e d w i t h th e – t h e M i n is tr y i n a n y w a y o r fo r m . I c a n c o n fir m t h a t i n t e r n a lly b e t w e e n M a n a g e m e n t a n d th e B o a r d M a n a g e m e n t r a is e d t h e ir c o n c e r n s fo r m a l ly a s w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I m e a n - t o th e B o a r d t o s a y … Page 190 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h is is b e c o m in g h u g e ly p r o b le m a t ic … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : In i ts n a t u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: w i t h a n tic i p a t io n t h e n t h a t t h e B o a r d w o u l d ta k e it f u r th e r a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t a k e i t f u r th e r, j a . 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Have a d is c u s s i o n with the M i n is t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e th e r th e y d i d t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t k n o w ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Before you move on to page 32 p a r a g r a p h 8 9 y o u w e r e in f a c t in y o u r p o s i ti o n a s G r o u p C E O y o u w e r e the apex o f M a n a g e m e n t a n d E x e c u ti v e Management within the o r g a n i s a t io n . Is th a t r i g h t ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. 20 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d i n th a t p a r ti c u l a r p o s it i o n y o u h a d l e a r n t o f v a r i o u s i n s ta n c e s o f c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e n o t b e e n o b s e r v e d in t h e w a y th a t i t s h o u ld . Is th a t r ig h t ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : What did you do about what you had le a r n t a b o u t , th e e x p e r ie n c e s t h a t y o u h a d a n d w h a t a p p e a r e d t o h a v e Page 191 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 b e e n c o r p o r a te g o v e r n a n c e n o t b e i n g o b s e r v e d in t h e w a y t h a t i t should? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : S o I r a is e d t h e s e is s u e s w i t h th e – t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d b e c a u s e s h e a n d I w e u s e d to h a v e r e g u la r m e e t i n g s a s w e ll e v e n o u ts id e o f t h e B o a r d in o r d e r to – f o r h e r t o k e e p a b r e a s t w i t h s o m e o f th e is s u e s a n d t h e c h a ll e n g e s t h a t w e w e r e f a c i n g i n t h e o r g a n is a t i o n . S o s h e d e f in i te ly w a s a w a r e o f s o m e o f t h e s e c h a l le n g e s a n d s h e – j a – s h e – a n d w a s c o m p l e te ly a li g n e d w i t h M a n a g e m e n t t h a t i t w a s a b s o l u t e ly w r o n g f o r s o m e o f th e s e t h i n g s 10 t o o c c u r i n t h e m a n n e r i n th a t th e y d i d . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Wa s … ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o t h e i n v o lv e m e n t e s p e c i a l ly o f M r Si y a b o n g a M a h l a n g u o n a n u m b e r o f i s s u e s w i th i n th e o r g a n is a ti o n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s a w a r e o f th a t a n d t h e r e is a n in s t a n c e w h ic h I t h i n k s h e a c tu a l ly e v e n c o v e r e d in h e r te s ti m o n y w h e r e in t h e fr u s tr a ti o n a n d I d e s c r i b e d i t a s in t h e fr u s tr a ti o n o f n o t b e in g a b l e to g e t m a n a g e m e n t t o d o w h a t t h e y w a n t e d t o d o I t h i n k th e y a t t e m p t e d a s w e ll t o tr y a n d s e e i f th e y c o u l d g o d ir e c tl y o r M r S iy a b o n g a – g o d ir e c t ly 20 to th e C h a ir p e r s o n to r a is e the concerns in terms of M a n a g e m e n t n o t d o i n g w h a t th e y e x p e c te d M a n a g e m e n t to d o o n ly to fi n d t h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s v e r y c le a r o n is s u e s r e l a ti n g to g o v e r n a n c e a n d i n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r in s t a n c e m a d e a b s o l u t e ly s u r e t h a t s h e c a m e b a c k to m a n a g e m e n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a n d w o u ld n o t a t t e n d a m e e ti n g w h e r e th e y w a n t e d t o r a is e is s u e s p e r t a in in g t o o p e r a t i o n a l m a t t e r s w i th o u t in v i ti n g m e to b e p r e s e n t a t Page 192 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h a t m e e ti n g a s w e l l. CHAIRPERSON : A n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n th r o u g h o u t y o u r t e r m a s C E O fr o m 2 0 1 0 to 2 0 1 2 w a s M s C a r o lu s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Th a t i s correct C h a ir except p o s s i b ly fo r t h e l a s t w e e k o f m y s t a y a t S A A . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : At paragraph 89 on page 32 you talk a b o u t a k e y t u r n a r o u n d i te m t h a t w a s t a s k e d t o y o u t o a t t e n d t o c a ll e d t h e Fl e e t P la n w h i c h w a s a i m e d a t s u p p o r t in g g r o w t h s tr a t e g y. C a n y o u 10 p l e a s e e x p l a i n t o t h e C o m m i s s io n w h a t e x a c t ly t h a t e n t a i le d a n d w h y w a s t h is i n i t ia t e d ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: So p art of our – our turn – our s tr a t e g y w a s a c t u a ll y a g r o w t h s tr a t e g y. W h a t I m e a n b y g r o w th s tr a t e g y is t h a t w e f e l t t h a t t h e a ir li n e n e e d e d to g r o w - e s p e c ia ll y g iv e n t h a t i t is a n e t w o r k c a r r i e r – i t n e e d e d to g r o w t h e r o u t e th a t i t operated on in order to increase the – th e p r o f i ta b il it y o f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . I f y o u a r e s i t ti n g a lr e a d y w it h v e r y h u g e c o s ts y o u e i t h e r lo o k in g a t c u t ti n g t h e c o s t c o m p l e t e ly o r y o u a r e g r o w in g th e r e v e n u e 20 t h a t y o u g e t o r t a k e i n o r d e r t o c u t t h e c o s ts b u t a s p a r t o f t h a t o r t h e o n e m a j o r c h a ll e n g e t h a t S A A h a d a t th a t p o i n t in ti m e r e l a te d t o t h e a ir c r a f t a n d t h e a i r c r a ft ty p e s t h a t w e r e o p e r a t in g . A lo t o f t h e a ir c r a f t w e r e a c t u a ll y c o m in g – w e r e d u e f o r r e n e w a l i n t e r m s o f t h e ir l e a s e s b e c a u s e y o u e i th e r – y o u o p e r a t e a ir c r a f t e i t h e r a s o w n e d a ir c r a f t o r le a s e d a ir c r a f t. Page 193 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 S o w e h a d a c o m b i n a t io n o f a ir c r a f t t h a t w e r e le a s e d a n d some that were owned and some of those leases were becoming or – d u e fo r r e n e w a l w h i c h w a s th e o n e i s s u e . T h e s e c o n d is s u e i s t h a t i n m o t iv a t i n g f o r g r o w t h o f c e r t a i n r o u t e s o r t h e g r o w th s tr a t e g y i t r e q u ir e d u s t o e n s u r e t h a t w e w e r e u ti li s i n g t h e a p p r o p r i a te a ir c r a f t i n o r d e r t o b e a b le t o b e p r o f i ta b le o n t h e r o u t e . W h e r e t h e r e w e r e c e r ta i n r o u t e s t h a t w e r e n o t – w e r e n o t p r o f i ta b le a t th a t p o in t in t i m e n o t t h e r e w a s n o p o te n ti a l f o r t h e m t o b e p r o f i ta b le b u t s i m p l y b e c a u s e w e w e r e u s in g t h e w r o n g e q u i p m e n t o n 10 t h e a i r c r a ft . S o t h e s e w e r e t h e th in g s t h a t w e n e e d e d t o – t o t r y a n d fi n a l is e . I n a d d i t io n t o t h a t t h e M a n a g e m e n t h a d a l s o i n h e r i te d – w h e n I s a y in h e r i t e d b e c a u s e i t w a s a le g a c y – I m e a n – i s s u e p e r ta i n i n g t o t h e A 3 2 0 C o n tr a c t w h e r e S A A h a d p a id d e p o s i ts fo r t h e s e a ir c r a f t a n d t h e n h a d n o t ta k e n d e li v e r y o f th e a ir c r a f t . T h i s te a m in p a r t ic u l a r f e l t t h a t w h i ls t it w a s s ti ll – s ti ll m a d e s e n s e to f in d a w a y to c o n c l u d e t h e – t h e c o n tr a c t o n t h e A 3 2 0 s b y t h e ti m e w e a r e l o o k i n g a t t h e f le e t t h e r e a r e e v e n n e w e r g e n e r a ti o n s A 3 2 0 s th a n t h e o n e s th a t w e r e i n it i a l ly i n – in t h e c o n tr a c t . So the a p p r o a c h w a s t h a t l e t u s n o t t a k e a n a p p r o a c h w h ic h is – y o u f ix o n e 20 t h i n g b u t i t d o e s n o t r e a ll y h a v e a s i g n i fi c a n t i m p a c t a s p a r t o f th e t u r n a r o u n d s tr a t e g y. S o th e F l e e t R e v i e w P r o c e s s w a s a s i g n i fi c a n t p o r ti o n o f o u r t u r n a r o u n d s tr a te g y a n d i n o r d e r to b e a b le to d o t h is w o r k e ff e c t iv e ly w h a t I d id w a s to s e t u p w h a t I c a l le d l ik e a Fl e e t C o m m i t te e . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . Page 194 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: W h ic h w a s a n e w – a n e w t h i n g b u t a ls o a i m e d a t i m p r o v i n g g o v e r n a n c e w i th i n t h e o r g a n is a t i o n b e c a u s e th e r e h a d a l w a y s b e e n h o r r o r s t o r ie s a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n s w h e n t h e r e is p r o c u r e m e n t r e l a ti n g t o a ir c r a f t . Th e s e a r e s i g n i fic a n t numbers that we are talking about. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d w h a t w a s th e m a n d a t e o f th is committee? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o th e m a n d a te o f th is c o m m i t t e e w a s to r e v i e w – to a c t u a l ly a n a ly s e a ll o f th e r o u te s , t o l o o k i s s u e s 10 s u c h a s w h e n a r e l e a s e s a c t u a l ly te r m in a ti n g , w h a t w o u l d b e t h e a p p r o p r i a t e a ir c r a f t i n s u p p o r t in g t h e g r o w t h s tr a t e g y, a n a ly s e a l l o f t h a t w o r k a n d t h e n p r o v i d e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n i n t e r m s o f w h e r e w e s h o u l d b e h e a d in g a n d w h a t ty p e o f a ir c r a f t w e s h o u l d b e l o o k in g t o b r i n g i n to – i n to t h e s y s t e m . S o t h a t F le e t C o m m i t t e e a s I s h a r e h e r e t h a t w e d i d p u t th a t t o g e th e r a n d I e n s u r e d t h a t e v e r y b o d y w a s r e p r e s e n t e d . B y e v e r y b o d y I m e a n S e n i o r E x e c u t iv e s fr o m L e g a l , C o m m e r c ia l , Fi n a n c e , R is k a n d C o m p l ia n c e a n d a ls o to i n c lu d e t h e s u b s i d i a r ie s s u c h a s S A Te c h n i c a l a n d M a n g o a n d i t w a s i m p o r ta n t to a l s o i n c l u d e t h o s e s u b s id i a r i e s 20 b e c a u s e s o m e ti m e s y o u m a k e t h e d e c is i o n s o n a ir c r a f t o n ly fr o m a p a s s e n g e r p e r s p e c t iv e b e c a u s e i t l o o k s g o o d b u t y o u f o r g e t t o l o o k a t w h a t i t w o u ld c o s t t o m a i n ta i n t h e a ir c r a f t . S o w e t r i e d to p u t to g e t h e r a C r o s s F u n c ti o n a l Te a m t h a t w o u ld l o o k a t th e a n a ly s is o f – o f t h i s p r o p o s a l a n d a s p a r t o f t h i s w e a ls o – s o t h e y s i g n e d v e r y c o n f i d e n ti a l a g r e e m e n t w h i c h a r e v e r y Page 195 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 s p e c i f ic to t h i s F l e e t C o m m i t t e e b e c a u s e w e w a n te d t o e n s u r e t h a t there were minimum leaks. whenever you are These are big numbers that are involved lo o k i n g to change a ir c r a f t or to put a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n f o r w a r d . W e a l s o - i n t h a t r e g a r d I a ls o m a k e m e n t io n o f t h e s m a ll c o n s u l t a n c y b y t h e n a m e o f D a y l i g h t w h ic h w a s a ls o a p p o i n t e d t o a s s is t w i t h th e m o r e c o m p l e x fi n a n c i a l a n a ly s i s . I th e n b r i n g u p t h e p o in t t h a t t h e r e w e r e s o m a n y - p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n a n d t o c o n fir m w h y i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t o p u t t o g e t h e r th is c o m m i t te e in t h is m a n n e r is b e c a u s e 10 t h e r e w o u l d b e s o m a n y q u e r ie s c o n t in u o u s ly a r o u n d th is – t h e f le e t a n d w h a t w e in t e n d e d t o d o a n d n o t o n ly f r o m t h e t w o m a in s u p p li e r s b e i n g B o e i n g a n d A i r b u s tr y in g to fi n d o u t w h e r e w e a r e i n t h e p r o c e s s b u t w h a t h a p p e n s is th a t a n a ir c r a f t – y o u a r e b a s i c a ll y b u y i n g – b u y in g a s h e ll fr o m e a c h o f th e m a n u f a c t u r e r s . Yo u c a n d e c i d e to g o a n d b u y t h e e n g in e s fr o m s o m e b o d y e ls e . S o t h e p e o p l e – t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e w h o w a n t e d t o h a v e a s e n s e o f w h e r e w e a r e s o t h a t t h e y c a n a ls o s e l l u s t h e ir e n g in e s v e r s u s a n y b o d y ’s e n g in e a n d l ik e w is e C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 20 S o t h i s p a r ti c u l a r c o m m i t t e e w h i c h w a s e s t a b li s h e d n o t o n ly a u g m e n te d g o v e r n a n c e p r i n c i p le s b u t i t r e a ll y c r e a te d a t r a n s p a r e n t p l a tf o r m o n w h ic h t o c o n d u c t a r e v i e w. Is that r ig h t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n o n c e th e c o m m i t te e ’s w o r k h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d w h a t w a s t h e p r o c e s s t o b e f o ll o w e d t h e r e a f t e r in Page 196 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 r e l a ti o n t o t h e o u t c o m e s o f t h e ir w o r k ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: S o th e p r o c e s s is t h a t t h e y w o u l d c o m e t h r o u g h a s – w it h a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t o m y s e l f w h ic h th e n i n s u p p o r t in g t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w o u l d t a b l e i t w it h th e s u b - c o m m i t te e o f t h e B o a r d w h o w o u l d r e v i e w th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a n d t h e n e q u a lly r e c o m m e n d i t t o t h e B o a r d f o r a p p r o v a l a n d t h is w a s d o n e a n d w h a t e v e r w a s a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n o f t h is c o m m i t t e e w a s a p p r o v e d b o t h b y t h e s u b - c o m m i t t e e o f th e B o a r d a n d th e B o a r d a n d w a s th e r e fo r e o n w a r d t a b le d w i t h t h e M in is t e r b e c a u s e i t f a l ls u n d e r th o s e i t e m s w h ic h a r e 10 c o n s i d e r e d t o b e s ig n if ic a n t a n d m a t e r ia l i n n a tu r e . S o t h a t w e t h e n c o m m u n i c a t e d t h a t th e s u b - c o m m i t t e e to th e B o a r d h a d a p p r o v e d a p a r ti c u la r p o s i ti o n a n d it is o n e o f t h o s e w h e r e w e w a i t e d a n d w a i te d a n d t h e r e w e r e j u s t n o r e s p o n s e s a n d i t w a s u n c l e a r a s t o w h y w e a r e n o t g e t ti n g – I m e a n – r e s p o n s e s o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r to s a y w e e it h e r s u p p o r t o r d o n o t s u p p o r t o r w h a t e v e r. I t j u s t w e n t s il e n t a s t o – y o u k n o w – w h a t th e i s s u e s w e r e th e r e a n d y e t w e h a d a c t u a l ly h ig h li g h t e d h o w i m p o r t a n t ti m in g w a s e v e n i n a s s is ti n g u s in r e l a ti o n t o t h o s e n e g o ti a ti o n s . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is t h e n u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e d a t e o f 20 2 7 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 2 w a s a v e r y i m p o r t a n t d a y i n t h e li f e o f S o u t h A fr ic a n A ir w a y s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n to t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e d a t e o f 2 7 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 2 ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: On 27 September 2012 a number Page 197 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 o f t h e B o a r d M e m b e r s t h e n d e c id e d to r e s ig n fr o m t h e B o a r d o f S A A . I n f a c t a l l o f th e B o a r d M e m b e r s r e s i g n e d e x c e p t f o r th r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : R e s i g n e d – d i d y o u s a y ( in t e r v e n e s ) ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: ( In t e r v e n e s ) r e s i g n e d f r o m t h e B o a r d e x c e p t fo r t h r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , e x c e p t fo r t h r e e ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : E x c e p t fo r t h r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: 10 O f t h e N o n - E x e c u t iv e D i r e c t o r s and … ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: And who were the th r e e who r e m a in e d ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: The three who remained were Ya k h e K w i n a n a , Ms D u d u M y e n i a n d A d v o c a te L i n d i T h o m a s . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. CHAIRPERSON : r e s ig n a ti o n s ? H o w b ig w a s t h e B o a r d a t t h e t i m e o f th o s e In o th e r w o r d s h o w m a n y p e o p le l e f t a n d h o w m a n y – I m e a n – t h e N o n - E x e c u tiv e o n e s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I s t a n d t o b e c o r r e c t e d C h a ir b u t I 20 t h i n k th a t i t w a s n in e i n t o t a l w h o r e s i g n e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: Because i think we were a Board o f 1 4 w i th t w o E x e c u tiv e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : Which would have made 12, yes. Page 198 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 CHAIRPERSON : A n d th o s e w h o r e s i g n e d t h e y r e s i g n e d o n t h e s a m e d a y, w it h in a fe w d a y s o f o n e a n o t h e r o r h o w d id o r d i d th e y r e s i g n a t a m e e ti n g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Th e y r e s ig n e d – w e l l t h e y r e s i g n e d on the same day … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: And the reason why I know that t h e y r e s i g n e d o n – o n t h e s a m e d a y is t h a t t h e y h a d t h e c o u r te s y o f c a ll – i n v i t in g m e i n to a m e e t in g a s t h e B o a r d a n d b e c a u s e I – I w a s t h e 10 G r o u p C E O a n d c o m m u n ic a te d t o m e th e i n te n ti o n to r e s i g n . S o t h a t I h e a r d i t fr o m th e m a n d n o t fr o m a n y o t h e r s o u r c e a n d i t is a t th a t – t h a t m e e ti n g w h e r e w h e n t h e y s h a r e d w i th m e t h e ir i n t e n ti o n s t o r e s ig n m y r e s p o n s e w a s I d o n o t k n o w w h y I w o u l d b e r e m a i n in g b e c a u s e I e q u a l ly s h a r e t h e - th e s a m e f r u s t r a t i o n s th a t – t h a t t h e y w e r e a r ti c u la t in g in r e la t io n t o h o w t h i n g s w e r e b e i n g h a n d l e d i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n b u t M s C a r o lu s w a s t h e C h a ir b e fo r e r e s i g n a t io n t h e n c o n v i n c e s m e t o s a y p l e a s e y o u n e e d t o s ta y i n th e i n t e r e s t o f th e s t a b il i ty o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d in h e r v ie w s h e w a s s a y in g s t a y b e c a u s e m a y b e t h e p e o p l e th e y d o n o t w a n t is u s a s th e N o n - E x e c u ti v e 20 D ir e c t o r s a n d th in g s m a y p o t e n ti a l ly b e d i ff e r e n t a f t e r w e h a v e l e f t b u t p l e a s e i n t h e i n te r e s t o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n c a n y o u r e m a i n b e h i n d a n d d o n o t m a k e t h e c a ll t o a ls o r e s i g n a t th e s a m e t i m e . I heeded her advice and said no I would stay but even then I d i d m a k e i t c l e a r e v e n t o M s C a r o lu s a n d I s a id I a m h a p p y t o s t a y in d e e d i n t h e in t e r e s t o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n b u t w h a t w o u l d a c t u a ll y Page 199 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 d e t e r m i n e m e s t a y i n g b e y o n d a p a r tic u la r p e r i o d in S A A i s i f t h e r e is a s e n s e t h a t t h in g s w o u l d c h a n g e a n d I w o u ld g e t a b e t t e r s e n s e o f th a t b a s e d o n t h e c a li b r e o f p e o p l e w h o th e y a p p o i n t o n t h e B o a r d a n d w h e t h e r t h e r e w o u l d s ti ll b e a li g n m e n t in t e r m s o f v a l u e s a n d e n s u r i n g g o o d c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e b e c a u s e i t w a s m y v i e w w h ic h I t h i n k I s h a r e d – I m e a n - w i t h th e B o a r d th a t t h e b ig g e s t p r o b le m w i t h th is B o a r d i s t h a t i t w a s j u s t s o s t r ic t o n i n s i s ti n g t h a t th in g s b e d o n e p r o p e r ly r a th e r th a n a n y t h i n g e ls e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W il l i t b e c o r r e c t t h e r e f o r e t o s a y y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g 10 is t h a t t h e n i n e M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d w h o r e s ig n e d a t t h e s a m e t i m e r e s ig n e d b e c a u s e t h e y b e li e v e d t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t r e c e i v i n g t h e s u p p o r t t h a t t h e M i n is tr y a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t w e r e s u p p o s e d t o g i v e them and SAA? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h a t is c o r r e c t – I m e a n – C h a ir a n d e q u a l ly t h e y w e r e d i s t u r b e d b y t h a t t h e y w e r e p r o f e s s i o n a ls w h o were now being portrayed as people who did not u n d e r s ta n d g o v e r n a n c e in th e p u b li c s p a c e w h e n th e r e a r e m e d i a l e a k a g e s t h a t p e r t a in to d a t e s b e in g m is s e d a n d c e r t a in th in g s t h a t h a d n o t b e e n done. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o p a r t o f i t w a s w h a t w a s – w h a t w a s f i n d i n g i ts w a y t o t h e m e d i a a n d b e i n g s a i d a b o u t S A A a n d - a n d /o r t h e B o a r d … M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e m e d i a i n c i r c u ms t a n c e s w h e r e t h e B o a r d o r a t le a s t s o m e M e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d t h o u g h t i t m u s t h a v e b e e n e i t h e r th e M i n is tr y o r th e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic E n te r p r is e s t h a t w o u l d h a v e Page 200 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 s h a r e d t h a t in f o r m a ti o n w i th t h e m e d ia ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A f t e r t h e B o a r d ’s r e s i g n a ti o n o r r a th e r m a j o r i t y o f t h e B o a r d ’s r e s ig n a t i o n o n 2 7 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 2 i t i s u n d e r s t o o d t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d a t e le p h o n e c a l l a n d th a t i s i n ti m a t e d o n page 34 paragraph 96 of the bundle. M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e – I a m s o r r y. C a n I j u s t i n t e r r u p t y o u ? Yo u – 10 y o u h a v e s a i d th a t y o u s h a r e d t h e s e n t i m e n t s w h ic h d r o v e n i n e M e m b e r s o f t h e B o a r d t o r e s ig n in g . D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e th r e e M e m b e r s o f th e B o a r d w h o d id n o t r e s i g n a ls o s h a r e d t h o s e s e n ti m e n ts or – or not? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : C h a ir I w o u l d n o t k n o w e x c e p t fo r o n e b e c a u s e a t t h a t m e e ti n g t h a t h a d b e e n c a l le d b y t h e m a j o r it y o f th e B o a r d M e m b e r s t o in d i c a t e t h a t t h e y i n t e n d e d to r e s i g n t h e o n ly o th e r B o a r d M e m b e r w h o w a s p r e s e n t i n th a t m e e ti n g o f th e t h r e e w h o r e m a in e d b e h i n d w a s M s K w i n a n a a n d I t h i n k s h e w a s l ik e h o n e s t a t t h e m e e ti n g t h a t s h e s h a r e s t h o s e s e n t i m e n t s . 20 H o w e v e r in h e r v i e w g iv e n t h a t s h e is s o d e p e n d e n t o n G o v e r n m e n t c o n tr a c ts s h e f e e ls u n c o m f o r t a b l e a b o u t h o w it w o u ld b e p e r c e iv e d i f s h e a c t u a l ly r e s i g n e d a s w e ll a s p a r t o f t h e g r o u p . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is w h a t s h e s a i d ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is what she said. C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e m e e t in g ? Page 201 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : A t t h e m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Can you please p r o v i d e d e t a il s o f t h e t e l e p h o n e c a ll th a t y o u r e c e iv e d s h o r t ly a f t e r th e Board resigned? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : I think it was a day or two at most b e c a u s e I w a s n o w w a i ti n g to h e a r w h o w o u l d b e t h e n e w C h a i r o f th e B o a r d a n d I r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m M s M y e n i t o s a y t h a t s h e w a s g o in g t o b e a p p o in t e d a s t h e A c t i n g C h a ir. 10 S o s h e w a s c a ll in g m e to a c t u a ll y r e q u e s t a m e e t i n g – th a t w e s e t u p a m e e t in g u r g e n tl y s o t h a t I c a n b r i n g h e r u p t o s p e e d o n – o n t h e m a t te r s . S o th a t is t h e c a ll I r e c e iv e d fr o m M s M y e n i a n d th e n t h a t v e r y e v e n i n g o n t h e n e w s – b e c a u s e th a t is h o w I f o u n d o u t – o n t h e n e w s M r Vu y is i le K o n a t h e n g e t s a n n o u n c e d a s th e – t h e n e w C h a ir o f t h e B o a r d a n d n o t M s M y e n i . S o t h a t m e e ti n g t h a t s h e r e q u e s t e d th e n n e v e r t o o k p l a c e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o n e e d – I m e a n – f o r th a t t o b e the case. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i n ti m e h o w lo n g h a d y o u b e e n i n – h o w lo n g h a d y o u k n o w n Ms D u d u M y e n i? 20 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: M s Myeni was N o n - E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r s w h e n I g o t a p p o in t e d a s C E O . one of the S o fr o m t h e fir s t d a y t h a t I j o i n e d S A A a s G r o u p C E O s h e w a s a ls o a m e m b e r o f t h e Board. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o t h e n it w a s o v e r t w o y e a r s ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 202 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: W h a t w a s y o u r r e a c t io n w h e n s h e c a l l e d y o u t o i n f o r m y o u t h a t s h e w a s t h e o n e th a t w a s t o b e a p p o i n t e d a s th e C h a ir ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: W e ll h o n e s tly I w a s a l i t tl e b it s u r p r is e d a n d t h e … ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Why? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: T h e r e a s o n w h y I w a s a li t tl e b i t s u r p r is e d is b e c a u s e s h e d i d n o t a c t u a l ly h a v e a f a n t a s t ic a tt e n d a n c e r e c o r d – y o u k n o w – a s a – a s a D ir e c t o r a n d m y a s s u m p ti o n w o u ld 10 h a v e b e e n t h a t o f – f ir s t m a y b e f o r c o n t i n u i ty in d e e d t h e y w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d m a y b e t o c h o o s e o n e o f th e t h r e e b u t I w a s q u i t e s u r p r i s e d t h a t t h e o n e w h o h a s t h e w o r s t a t t e n d a n c e r e c o r d is th e o n e w h o t h e n i s g o i n g t o b e th e C h a i r o f th e B o a r d . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: J u s t t o h e lp m e e n s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d w h e n y o u s a y s h e h a d th e w o r s e a tt e n d a n c e r e c o r d d o e s i t m e a n t h a t s h e a t t e n d e d b u t d i d n o t s ta y o r s h e d id n o t a t te n d ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : I th in k o v e r a ll s h e w a s a ls o o n e o f t h o s e w h o s o m e ti m e s d i d n o t t u r n u p f o r t h e m e e t in g a t a l l . I f s h e d i d t u r n u p f o r t h e m e e ti n g I d o n o t k n o w o f to o m a n y o c c a s i o n s w h e r e s h e 20 s t a y e d f o r t h e f u l l t i m e o f th e B o a r d M e e t in g . S h e w a s a l w a y s o n e o f t h o s e th a t f o u n d a w a y t o e x c u s e h e r s e l f p r i o r to t h e e n d o f t h e B o a r d M e e ti n g . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: A n d w h o w o u l d s h e p r o v id e t h e e x c u s e to – to b e e x c u s e d fr o m t h e m e e ti n g ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : W e ll s h e w o u l d s p e a k t o t h e C h a ir Page 203 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 a n d s h e w o u l d s p e a k to m e – y o u k n o w – I m e a n a s G r o u p C E O t o s a y lo o k I a m s o r r y. I m e a n I h a v e t o r u n b u t m a y b e M s – y o u k n o w – h e r m a in e x c u s e w a s th a t s h e n o w h a s t o r u s h b e c a u s e n u m b e r o n e h a s c a l l e d h e r t o a m e e t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: She has to rush because number o n e h a s c a ll e d h e r t o a m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s h e u s e d t o s a y th a t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s t o m e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : To y o u ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : A n d w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h o s h e w a s t a lk in g a b o u t? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I u n d e r s to o d h e r to b e s p e a k i n g a b o u t t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h e t i m e w h i c h o b v i o u s ly f o r m e w a s a li g n e d b e c a u s e s h e w a s t h e C h a ir o f t h e F o u n d a ti o n . S o I a s s u m e d s h e w a s b e i n g c a ll e d f o r th a t r e a s o n . ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: B u t M r Vu s i – Vu y is i l e s o r r y – Vu y i s i le K o n a is t h e o n e th e n w h o is a n n o u n c e d t o - a s a p p o i n t e d a s 20 t h e n e w C h a ir ? MS SIZAKEL E PETUNIA MZIMELA : That is correct. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D i d y o u m e e t w i th M r K o n a ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s I d i d . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A f t e r h is a p p o i n t m e n t ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : Ye s I d i d C h a ir a n d j u s t t o in d ic a t e Page 204 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 t h a t I k n e w Mr Vu y i s i le K o n a b e c a u s e M r Vu y i s i le K o n a h a d b e e n a n E x e c u t iv e a t S A A a s a V I P. I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r h i s e x a c t ti t le b u t a V I P a t th e t i m e th a t I w a s a t S A A p r e v i o u s ly a s E V P o f t h e t w o p o r t f o l io s t h a t I h a d – h e l d b e fo r e I l e f t t h e C E O o f S A E x p r e s s . S o h e a r r iv e s a n d s h o r t ly a f t e r h is a p p o in t m e n t – w h ic h i s t h e n e x t d a y – e s s e n ti a lly I th e n m e t w i th h i m a n d a s a n in d iv i d u a l w h o I k n e w I th e n s h a r e w i th h i m a s w e l l m y fr u s tr a ti o n s w h ic h a r e a li g n e d to t h e f r u s tr a t io n s th a t h a v e b e e n s h a r e d b y t h e B o a r d a n d I i n d i c a t e t o h m t h a t it w o u ld r e a ll y b e u s e f u l f o r h i m t o tr y a n d e s t a b l is h w h e t h e r 10 t h e r e w o u l d b e p r o p e r s u p p o r t g o i n g f o r w a r d b e c a u s e i n th e a b s e n c e o f p r o p e r s u p p o r t g o i n g f o r w a r d i t w o u ld r e a l l y b e d i ffic u l t e v e n f o r m y s e l f t o a c t u a l ly c o n t in u e i n th a t e n v ir o n m e n t . S o w e h a d a v e r y c o r d ia l – a s I s a i d w e k n e w e a c h o t h e r b e c a u s e h e h a d b e e n a n E x e c u t iv e a t S A A . S o w e h a v e t h is d is c u s s io n a n d – a n d s o fo r t h a n d I s h a r e q u i t e o p e n l y – I m e a n – w it h h i m t o s a y lo o k – y o u k n o w - i t r e a ll y is c h a ll e n g i n g b e c a u s e I a m f a c e d w i th th e s e is s u e s w h e r e c o n ti n u o u s ly I a m a c tu a l ly b e e n s e e n a s i f I a m n o t t o e i n g t h e li n e m u c h l ik e w h a t I t h i n k t h a t is t h e w a y i n w h ic h t h e B o a r d w a s p e r c e iv e d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w a s t h a t n o t tr u e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA: I t w a s tr u e . I w il l – I w i ll b e h o n e s t th a t y e s i t i s tr u e th a t I w a s n o t to e in g th e l in e , o k a y. So I s h a r e q u i t e o p e n l y w i t h Mr K o n a a n d h e i s v e r y u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d h e s h a r e s w it h m e lo o k S iz a y o u k n o w m e a n d w e w il l – le t u s tr y a n d w o r k w i t h e a c h o t h e r a n d h e h a s e v e r y i n te n ti o n t o a c t u a l ly w o r k w e ll w i t h Page 205 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 m e k n o w i n g a n d u n d e r s t a n d in g m y e x p e r t i s e a n d s o f o r t h . S o w e p a r t o n – o n t h a t b a s is … A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s . M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : B u t m y is s u e t h a t I s t a r t t o h a v e i s t h a t w i t h i n d a y s o f Mr C o n n o r b e i n g a p p o i n t e d , i n fa c t h e h a d t h a t d is c u s s io n d i r e c t w i th m e , h e t h e n s a y s o h h e w o u l d lik e t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e w e a r e i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e a ir c r a f t p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s . N o w th e r e ’s n o t h i n g w r o n g w it h th a t , h e is t h e C h a ir, i t w a s a p p r o v e d , I c a n a c t u a l ly t a l k to h i m , y o u k n o w i n t e r m s o f w h e r e w e 10 a r e , a b s o l u te ly n o t h i n g w r o n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Es p e c ia ll y w it h b i g i s s u e s lik e th a t . MS SIZAKELE PETUN IA MZIMELA: In d e e d . W h a t d id d is t u r b m e t h o u g h is th a t h e d i d m a k e t h a t c o m m e n t a t t h a t m e e t in g w h e r e h e s a y s h e h a s b e e n s p e c i f ic a l ly a s k e d to m a k e s u r e th a t t h a t ’s o n e o f th e o n e s h e lo o k s a t c lo s e ly, n o p r o b le m s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a i d h e h a d s p e c i fic a l ly b e e n a s k e d ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Been asked to ensure that one of t h e fi r s t t h i n g s th a t h e r e v ie w s is w h e r e w e a r e w i t h t h is a ir c r a f t common process. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : t h e r e ’s n o th in g wrong, he is th e A n d a s I i n d ic a te d C h a ir t h a t new Chairperson, i t ’s a b ig p r o c u r e m e n t m a t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , h e w o u l d n e e d t o h a v e a n id e a o f w h a t’s u r g e n t , w h a t n e e d s t h e B o a r d ’s a t t e n t io n , u r g e n t a t te n ti o n a n d s o o n a n d s o o n , Page 206 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 in t e r m s o f g iv in g g u i d a n c e w h e r e v e r. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : J a , s o t h a t is t h e c a s e , b u t th e n a ls o is what then a ls o d is t u r b s me that he w a n ts the a c tu a l d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h ic h g o e s b a c k t o e v e n th e w o r k th a t t h e fl e e t c o m m i t t e e u n d e r t o o k , n o t t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s , s o I a m c o m f o r ta b l e i f h e ’s a s k i n g m e a s t h e C E O t o t e l l h i m w h a t w a s t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n , w h a t w a s i t b a s e d o n , a n d t o s h a r e th e t y p e o f in f o r m a t io n t h a t w o u l d have been shared with the Board in order to reach the decision that w a s t a k e n b y th e B o a r d , b u t i t m a k e s m e u n c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t h e s e e m s 10 t o w a n t a li t tl e b i t m o r e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a n w h a t o r d i n a r i ly a C h a ir p e r s o n w o u ld r e q u e s t a n d I in d i c a t e m y l e v e l o f d is c o m f o r t a n d a s a r e s u l t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u i n d ic a t e d t h a t t o h i m MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s I i n d ic a te d m y le v e l o f d is c o m f o r t. CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , t h i s w a s s t il l a t y o u r f ir s t m e e ti n g w i th h i m o r s u b s e q u e n t ly. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : It w o u l d b e p r o b a b ly t h e v e r y n e x t d a y b e c a u s e th e f ir s t d a y w e w e r e j u s t t a l k i n g g e n e r a l ly a n d h e 20 w a s h a p p y, . I w e lc o m e d h i m in t o th e e n v ir o n m e n t . Th e v e r y, I m e a n v e r y s h o r t w h ic h w a s p r o b a b ly t h e n e x t d a y t h i s i s w h a t is h a p p e n i n g b e c a u s e h e w a n ts t o k n o w y o u k n o w a b o u t t h is a ir c r a f t p r o c u r e m e n t process and I i n d ic a te you know that lo o k I am a li t tl e bit u n c o m f o r t a b l e , I k n o w w h a t y o u ’r e s a y in g b u t I s h a r e w it h b u t w h y w o u ld y o u w a n t t o a c tu a lly g e t d e t a ils in t e r m s o f d o c u m e n t s a n d Page 207 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 p r o b a b ly s e e d o c u m e n ts t h a t e v e n h a v e n o t r e q u e s t e d b e c a u s e if I h a v e s a ti s f i e d m y s e lf t h a t h e p r o p e r p r o c e s s e s w e r e f o l lo w e d t h a t s h o u ld b e a d e q u a t e i n g e t t in g a l e v e l o f c o m f o r t a n d I d i d n o t h a n d le t h e I m e a n t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t h e r e q u e s te d . CHAIRPERSON : By the way you said that the two of you knew each o th e r b e f o r e h e w a s a p p o in t e d a s C h a ir p e r s o n ? M S S I Z A K E L E P E T U N I A M Z I M E L A : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : J a , o k a y, a lr i g h t . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 10 B e c a u s e w e h a d b o th b e e n e m p l o y e d b y S A A a t s o m e p o i n t to g e th e r in th e p a s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : B u t t h e n i t d o e s n ’t s to p t h e r e , t h e n .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) CHAIRPERSON : S o y o u p r o v i d e d th e i n f o r m a ti o n h e w a n te d o r y o u a r r a n g e d f o r y o u r te a m t o p r o v i d e i t o r n o t r e a l ly ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : N o I d o n ’t a r r a n g e f o r m y t e a m t o , b u t I g iv e h i m a n u p d a t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u g iv e h i m t h e i n f o r m a ti o n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 20 Ye s I g iv e h i m t h e u p d a t e w h ic h I t h i n k is th e c o r r e c t u p d a t e to p r o v i d e h i m w i t h b u t I d o n ’ t i n s tr u c t m y t e a m n e i t h e r d o I a c t u a l ly h a n d o v e r a n y o f t h e d o c u m e n ts , b u t t h e n I e s t a b li s h e d t h a t h e t h e n d e c id e s th a t h e w i ll b e r e q u e s t i n g a ll o f t h is in f o r m a ti o n t h a t r e l a t e s t o te n d e r s b y c a l l in g e x e c u ti v e s d ir e c tly w h ic h t h e n b e c o m e s I m e a n h u g e ly p r o b le m a t ic f o r m e b e c a u s e I ’ m li k e o k a y, n o w I e v e n h a v e th e C h a i r p e r s o n b e h a v i n g b a d ly, i t w a s o n e t h i n g y o u Page 208 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 n o w t o l e t ’s s a y p u s h b a c k , y o u k n o w o n s o m e o f t h e i n d iv i d u a l s f r o m the ministry but how am I going to do that with the Chairperson who is a ls o n o w b e g i n n i n g t o r e q u e s t in f o r m a t io n th a t t h e y s h o u ld n ’ t b e r e q u e s t in g a n d c a ll i n g th e e x e c u t iv e s d ir e c t ly, w h i c h i s b a d p r o t o c o l , I a m t h e r e a n d h e s h o u l d n o t b e d o in g t h a t a n d g e t t in g i n v o lv e d in o p e r a ti o n a l is s u e s . I d o t h e n d e c id e t h i s is n o t g o in g t o w o r k b e c a u s e e s s e n ti a lly a s I h a d a lr e a d y in d ic a t e d f o r m e i t w a s a b o u t w a i t in g t o s e e w h o i s going to bet appointed and what the value system would be going 10 f o r w a r d , s o I p r e p a r e d m y r e s i g n a ti o n l e tt e r a n d I g o t o M r K o n a . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON : S o h a n g o n , s o o n a f t e r t h is in c i d e n t w h e r e y o u h e a r t h a t h e is a p p r o a c h i n g y o u r e x e c u ti v e s y o u d e c i d e th a t ’s i t , t h a t ’s enough. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, b e c a u s e h e ’s n o t a p p r o a c h i n g th e m o n a s k i n g w h a t is t h e p e r fo r m a n c e o f S A Te c h n i c a l fo r a r g u m e n t’s s a k e h e ’s a c t u a lly q u it e s p e c i fic a b o u t r e q u e s t in g in f o r m a ti o n th a t p e r ta in s to p r o c u r e m e n t, s o t h is i s w h a t makes me very uncomfortable. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : D ie t h e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t h e w a s l o o k fo r r e l a t e o n ly t o t h e a i r c r a ft is s u e , I t h i n k w a s i t a te n d e r o r w h a t y o u w e r e w o r k i n g o n , o r S A A w a s w o r k in g o n , o r w a s i t o n v a r io u s p r o c u r e m e n t is s u e s o r tenders MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : r e q u e s ts is on various la r g e N o t h e in f o r m a t io n th a t h e tenders, Page 209 of 218 the one th a t he r a is e d 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON : Oh, various large tenders. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h e o n e t h a t h e r a is e s w i t h m e d ir e c t ly i s t h e o n e t h a t p e r ta i n s to t h e a i r c r a ft p u r c h a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : B u t s u b s e q u e n t to th a t h e is c a l li n g p e o p l e i n t h e t e c h n ic a l a r e a b e c a u s e th a t ’s a ls o w h e r e t h e r e is a b i g p r o c u r e m e n t a n d w a n t in g t o o b t a i n i n f o r m a ti o n w i t h r e g a r d t o p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s t h e r e , w it h r e g a r d t o f u e l p r o c e s s e s y o u k n o w 10 a n d s o f o r t h , s o h e ’s c a ll in g p e o p l e d ir e c tl y, I t h i n k h e ’s c a ll in g I m e a n t h e c a r g o p e o p le I r e c a ll I m e a n a s w e ll , y o u k n o w t h e G M o f c a r g o h e g e t s c a ll e d , y o u k n o w a s w e ll t o a s k a b o u t v a r i o u s is s u e s t h a t p e r ta i n t o p r o c u r e m e n t s o a t th a t p o in t I d e c i d e n o n o w I d o n ’t e v e n h a v e a d e f e n c e m e c h a n is m f r o m a B o a r d p e r s p e c t iv e to a s s is t m e i n p u s h in g b a c k a n d I d e c i d e I a m g o i n g t o r e s ig n , b u t I d i d n o t j u s t h a n d in m y r e s ig n a ti o n l e t te r, I w e n t a n d I m e t w i th M r K o n a a n d I d id s h a r e w it h h i m t h a t l o o k I h a d a f ir s t m e e ti n g w i t h y o u r s e l f, I d id s h a r e s o m e o f t h e concerns that I had and it was fortunate because you are behaving in a p a r t ic u l a r m a n n e r w h i c h I fi n d I m e a n u n a c c e p t a b le a n d a s a r e s u l t o f 20 t h a t I a l s o f e e l t h a t i t i s b e s t t h a t I t e r m i n a t e my s e r v ic e s w i t h y o u k n o w SAA. H e tr i e s to p e r s u a d e m e , h e s a y s n o , n o , n o , y o u k n o w I m e a n it ’s a li t tl e b i t u n f o r t u n a t e m a y b e y o u m i s u n d e r s t o o d a n d s o f o r t h b u t please don’t make this decision. I s a i d n o I h a v e a lr e a d y m a d e t h e d e c is i o n u n f o r t u n a t e ly, I m e a n t h o u g h t h a r d a n d l o n g o n th is d e c is io n , s o th is is it , I a m a c t u a l ly h a n d i n g i n my r e s i g n a ti o n a n d in m y Page 210 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 r e s ig n a ti o n I w a s o b li g a t e d t o s e r v e a t h r e e m o n t h s n o ti c e a n d I in d i c a t e t o h i m t h a t th is is w h a t I a m o b li g a te d t o d o w h ic h is t o s e r v e a t h r e e m o n th s ’ n o t ic e b u t I w i ll b e g u id e d b y h i m o n h o w lo n g t h e y w o u l d w a n t m e t o s ta y b u t i f th e y w o u l d b e i n a p o s i ti o n to r e le a s e m e e a r l ie r I w o u l d b e m o r e t h a n c o m f o r t a b le t o d o th a t . I th e n r e c e i v e d a c a l l o n t h a t s a m e d a y fr o m A d v o c a t e L i n d i T h o m a s w h o r e q u e s t a n u r g e n t m e e t in g w it h m e th a t s a m e e v e n in g , a n d I a c c e p t . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) CHAIRPERSON : 10 Wa s s h e a b o a r d m e m b e r a t t h e t i m e o r w a s s h e previous board member? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S h e w a s s ti ll a b o a r d m e m b e r, one of the three. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e o f t h e t h r e e w h o h a d r e m a i n e d , o k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Indeed. So I agreed to meet with h e r a n d I g o a n d m e e t w i t h h e r a t C h a m b e r s a c t u a l ly a n d w h il e I’ m t h e r e , y o u k n o w s h e w a n t s to tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d w h y h a v e I d e c i d e d t o a c t u a ll y r e s ig n a n d m o s t i m p o r ta n tl y w h y a m I r e s ig n in g w i t h i m m e d ia t e e ffe c t , w h ic h c a tc h e s m e b y s u r p r i s e , b e c a u s e I t h e n s a y l o o k I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d b e c a u s e I n e v e r s a i d I a m r e s ig n i n g w i t h i m m e d i a t e e ffe c t. 20 I n my le t t e r i t ’s v e r y c le a r t h a t I h a v e a t h r e e m o n th s n o ti c e b u t i f I c o u l d b e r e l e a s e d e a r li e r o f c o u r s e I w o u l d b e g r a t e fu l , I m e a n fo r th a t , b u t I d e fi n it e ly d i d n o t r e s i g n w i th i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t . S h e t h e n s a y s w e l l t h a t ’s v e r y s u r p r is in g a n d s h e a c tu a lly e v e n s h o w s m e a r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u t i o n w h ic h h a s b e e n s e n t t o h e r b y th e C o m p a n y S e c r e t a r y, I a m g o in g t o a s s u m e , b u t th is t o a p p o in t Mr K o n a Page 211 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 a s t h e E x e c u ti v e C h a ir a n d w h i c h t h e y w a n t t h e r e m a i n i n g b o a r d m e m b e r s to a p p r o v e a n d th e m o t iv a t i o n f o r h i m b e in g a p p o i n t e d a s E x e c u t iv e C h a ir is b e c a u s e I h a v e r e s i g n e d w it h i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n o r t h e r e s o l u ti o n . CHAIRPERSON : Ex e c u ti v e C h a ir w o u l d b e w h a t in t h is c o n t e x t, t h e r e is a C h a ir o f th e B o a r d , t h e r e is a C E O , a G r o u p C E O , s o E x e c u ti v e C h a ir w o u l d i n w h e r e ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o t h e r e is n ’ t a p o s i t io n , o r w a s n ’ t a p o s i ti o n c a ll e d Ex e c u ti v e C h a ir b u t e s s e n ti a l ly w h a t h e w a s 10 tr y i n g t o c o m m u n i c a t e t h a t w i th t h e C E O , t h e G r o u p C E O r e s i g n i n g w i t h i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t s o m e b o d y n e e d s t o s t e p u p a n d a ls o m a n a g e t h e E x e c u t iv e f u n c ti o n s o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n , s o h is r e c o m m e n d a t io n s th a t h e b e th e i n d iv id u a l w h o is t h e C h a ir p e r s o n b u t is E x e c u tiv e C h a ir b e c a u s e it t h e n a ll o w s h i m t h e r o o m t o a ls o b a s ic a l ly r u n th e o p e r a ti o n s , r u n t h e o r g a n is a t i o n in a n e x e c u tiv e c a p a c i ty. CHAIRPERSON : B u t th e – I t a k e i t t h a t t h a t p e r s o n , M r K o n a w a s a member of the Board? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : CHAIRPERSON : 20 Ye s . B u t i n th e s tr u c t u r e o f S A A w a s t h e r e a p o s i ti o n c a l l e d E x e c u t iv e C h a i r ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h e r e w a s n ’t a p o s it i o n c a ll e d E x e c u t iv e C h a ir, C h a ir b u t e s s e n ti a l ly m a y b e le t m e p u t i t d i ff e r e n t ly y o u k n o w w i t h o u t a c t u a l ly p u tt i n g a ti tl e t o i t , b u t w h a t M r K o n a i s r e q u e s t in g is t h a t h e b e g i v e n p e r m is s i o n to a ls o a s s u m e e x e c u tiv e powers. Page 212 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w o u ld b e C E O p o w e r s ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : To a ls o a s s u m e e x e c u t iv e p o w e r s w h ic h w o u l d b e C E O p o w e r s b e c a u s e th e C E O h a s d e c i d e d to r e s i g n w i t h i m m e d i a t e e ffe c t . CHAIRPERSON : O h s o h e w o u ld b e – h e w o u ld r e m a i n C h a ir o f t h e B o a r d b u t a ls o e ff e c t iv e ly b e C E O . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : 10 T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON : Combine the two. MS SIZAKELE PETU NIA MZIMELA: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u w o u l d b e c a l le d E x e c u t iv e C h a ir ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : S o m a y b e I m e a n f o r m e w h a t is in c o r r e c t i s t o u s e t h e te r m E x e c u tiv e C h a ir b u t I a m t r y i n g t o d e s c r i b e t h a t i t is a C h a ir p e r s o n w h o t a k e s .. . ( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a c tu a l f u n c t io n y e s , ja . I t w a s h e w a n t e d t o b e t o p e r f o r m t h e d u t i e s o f a n o n - e x e c u ti v e C h a ir a s w e ll a s t h o s e o f t h e 20 G r o u p C E O t o g e t h e r. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : J u s t o n t h e p o i n t o f y o u r r e s i g n a t io n c a n I a s k y o u to t u r n p a g e 2 0 5 p l e a s e . r e s ig n a ti o n ? Page 213 of 218 I s t h a t y o u r l e tt e r o f 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a t’s m y s u b s e q u e n t le t t e r o f r e s ig n a ti o n w h ic h th e n t a lk s t o w i t h i m m e d ia t e e ffe c t , b u t t h is is n o t m y o r i g in a l r e s i g n a ti o n l e tt e r. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : B e c a u s e a f t e r t h e c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h A d v o c a t e T h o m a s w h e r e it ’ s c l e a r th a t t h e C h a i r w a n t s to a s s u m e e x e c u tiv e p o w e r s I th e n d r a f t e d th is s e c o n d l e tt e r t o in d ic a t e t h a t n o w t h a t h e h a s d e c i d e d t o a s s u m e a n d r e q u e s t t h e r e s t o f t h e B o a r d to a p p r o v e h i m a ls o t a k i n g o v e r e x e c u ti v e p o w e r s th e n in d e e d I w o u l d 10 w a n t to a c t u a ll y e x i t th e s y s te m w i th i m m e d i a te e ff e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s tr ic tl y s p e a k i n g th is is n o t y o u r r e s ig n a ti o n l e t te r b u t i t ’s a l e t te r in w h ic h y o u s ta t e y o u r p o s it i o n a f t e r c e r ta i n d e v e l o p m e n ts , s in c e y o u h a n d e d i n y o u r r e s ig n a ti o n ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIM ELA: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d t h e n t h r o u g h y o u C h a ir th a t c o n c l u d e s t h e m a i n fo c u s o f t h e e v i d e n c e o f th is w i t n e s s . H o w e v e r a t p a g e 3 6 o f t h e b u n d l e t h r o u g h th e p o s i ti o n th a t t h i s w i t n e s s h o l d s a s in t e r i m C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r o f S o u t h A fr i c a n Ex p r e s s s h e i s a b l e t o 20 s h a r e w i th t h i s C o m m i s s i o n a n u p d a t e o n t h e N o r t h w e s t G r o u n d H a n d l in g a n d E M L tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t t h is C o m m is s i o n h a s b e e n h e a r in g a b o u t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , le t ’s d o t h a t , le t ’s c o v e r th a t . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I th i n k C h a ir t h e o n ly th i n g th a t I c a n s h a r e w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e s e tw o is s u e s is th a t a t S A E x p r e s s t h e r e Page 214 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 is a r e l a t iv e l y n e w b o a r d , I m a d e m e n ti o n t h a t I b e c a m e in t e r i m C E O o f S A E x p r e s s in A u g u s t o f la s t y e a r, p o s t t h e g r o u n d i n g o f S A E x p r e s s i n M a y, s o S A E x p r e s s g e ts g r a n t e d o n t h e 2 4 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 8 a n t h is i s a d a y a f t e r th e n e w b o a r d h a s b e e n a p p o i n te d , a n d s o f o r th e fir s t p a r t o r t h e fir s t f e w m o n th s o f t h e ir te n u r e a s th e n e w b o a r d i t w a s r e a l ly j u s t f o c u s e d o n m a k i n g s u r e t h a t w e g e t t h e a ir l i n e b a c k i n to th e s k i e s , w h ic h is h o w I o r i g in a l ly a s w e l l , a s p a r t o f a t a s k t e a m t o a s s i s t w i t h that. O n c e t h a t h a d b e e n d o n e i t r e a ll y h a s – a n d p a r t o f t h e w o r k 10 t h a t w a s b e in g d o n e w a s o b v io u s ly t o l o o k a t is s u e s r e la t e d t o g o v e r n a n c e a n d g o v e r n a n c e b r e a k d o w n s , o n e o f w h ic h r e la t e d to e v e n is s u e s r e la t in g t o c o m m e r c i a l a g r e e m e n ts o r u n - c o m m e r c i a l a g r e e m e n ts in t e r m s o f t h e a ir l i n e . T h is is w h e r e th e B o a r d ’s a t t e n t i o n w a s b r o u g h t in r e l a ti o n t o s o m e o f t h e w o r k t h a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n u n d e r t a k e n a t t h a t p o i n t r e la t in g to N o r th W e s t, t h e N o r t h W e s t g r o u n d i n g a g r e e m e n t a n d th e E M L . In fat my knowledge by the time this new Board takes o v e r t h e r e w a s a lr e a d y o n e c a s e th a t ’s l o d g e d a g a in s t M r B r i a n v a n W y k i n r e l a t i o n , b y S A E x p r e s s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e N o r t h W e s t m a t t e r, b u t t h is B o a r d .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, w h e n y o u s a y t h e r e w a s a t le a s t o n e c a s e lo d g e d by SAA a g a in s t Mr van Wyk what does that mean . . .( i n te r v e n t io n ) MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : CHAIRPERSON : S A Express. .. . w h a t k i n d o f c a s e a n d w h e r e w a s i t l o d g e d ? C r i m i n a l c a s e , d is c i p l in a r y c a s e o r w h a t ? Page 215 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : N o C h a ir i n r e l a ti o n t o B r i a n v a n W y k I b e l ie v e th a t t h e c a s e h a d a lr e a d y, a c a s e h a d b e e n o p e n e d w i t h the commercial crimes unit. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a c r i m i n a l c a s e j a ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : Ye s a c r i m in a l c a s e w i t h r e g a r d t o M r B r i a n v a n W y k y o u k n o w o n ly. T h e r e w e r e o th e r i n d iv i d u a l s t h a t w e r e o n s u s p e n s io n a s w e ll i n r e la t io n t o t h e N o r t h W e s t m a t t e r a n d a ls o in r e la t io n t o t h e E M L m a t t e r, s o t h e B o a r d u n d e r t o o k t o c o m p l e t e t h e in v e s ti g a t io n t h a t w a s n e c e s s a r y t o c o n c l u d e o n th e s e m a t t e r s , b u t 10 I j u s t w a n t to b e c l e a r t h a t th e f o c u s b e i n g o n e n s u r i n g t h a t a c ti o n is t a k e n a g a i n s t t h o s e i n d iv i d u a l s th a t w e r e d ir e c t ly li n k e d w e r e e it h e r e m p l o y e d b y S A E x p r e s s o r w i th f o r m e r e m p lo y e e s o f S A E x p r e s s , a n d n o t b e y o n d t h a t , b e c a u s e a s w e a ll k n o w r i g h t n o w th a t e s p e c ia ll y w h e n it p e r t a i n s t o N o r th W e s t th a t i t a c t u a ll y g o e s b e y o n d e v e n S A E x p r e s s in i t s n a tu r e . T h a t w o r k a t t h is s t a g e h a s b e e n c o m p l e t e d , t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e o n s u s p e n s i o n h a v e s u b s e q u e n tl y b e e n t e r m i n a t e d o r s o m e o f t h e m o p t e d t o r e s ig n a t th e p o i n t a t w h ic h t h e y w e r e u n d e r s u s p e n s i o n b u t o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t w i th s o m e o f th e fu r t h e r w o r k t h a t h a s b e e n 20 done there have been further cases opened against those former e m p l o y e e s a s w e ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER : A n d t h e n l a s tl y i t ’s b e e n b r o u g h t t o m y a t t e n t io n th a t Vu y is e lo K o n a is s p e l t i n c o r r e c t ly a t p a r a g r a p h 9 6 o n p a g e 3 4 , I j u s t w is h t o p l a c e t h i s o n r e c o r d , b u t t h o s e a r e c e r t a in ly t h e Page 216 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 q u e s t io n s fr o m t h e l e g a l t e a m fo r t h i s w i tn e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th a t ’s fi n e . I s e e y o u h a v e n ’ t ta lk e d i n t e r m s o f n a m e s o t h e r th a n Mr v a n W y k , i t m i g h t b e h e l p fu l i f s u b s e q u e n t ly m a y b e a s u p p l e m e n ta r y ( in d is ti n c t) c a n b e s e n t t h r o u g h a n d t h e y w o u l d a s s is t , i t j u s t t a lk s a b o u t n a m e s , th is is w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d a n d t h e s e a r e t h e e m p lo y e e s o f S A Ex p r e s s w h o h a v e – w h o w e r e s u s p e n d e d a n d w h e n d i d t h e y r e s ig n t h o s e w h o r e s i g n e d a n d i f t h e r e w e r e d is c ip li n a r y h e a r in g s th is i s w h a t h a p p e n e d i n r e g a r d t o t h e d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g s s o t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n h a s a c o m p l e te p i c t u r e . 10 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : I’m very happy to provide that C h a ir. ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER : Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t, t h e le g a l t e a m w il l b e i n to u c h w i th y o u f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h a t s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y o u a r e d o n e ? A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, M s M z i m e l a i t h a s b e e n a l o n g d a y, t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g to s h a r e – t o g iv e e v i d e n c e in th e c o m m i s s i o n , 20 w e a p p r e c i a te it . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , y o u a r e e x c u s e d . MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . W e l l I w a n t e d t o s a y – y o u lo o k l ik e y o u m i g h t b e w a n t in g t o s a y s o m e th in g ? MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s ju s t a s ig n o f r e li e f . Page 217 of 218 26 JUNE 2019 – DAY 121 MS SIZAKELE PETUNIA MZIMELA : CHAIRPERSON : I n d e e d C h a ir. O h o k a y, a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u , y o u a r e e x c u s e d . Ye s , w e c a n a d jo u r n n o w a n d to m o r r o w w e s ta r t a t t e n . A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e w i ll a d jo u r n th e n f o r t o d a y a n d t o m o r r o w w e w i ll s t a r t a t t e n . W e a d jo u r n . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 2 7 J U N E 2 0 1 9 Page 218 of 218