C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 25 NOVEMBER 2019 D AY 1 9 2 20 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 25 NOVEMB ER 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : M r M o y a n e h a d a c t e d m a l ic i o u s ly. I t w a s n o t c l e a r to m e w h e t h e r Mr G o r d h a n in t e n d e d t o a l le g e o r a l l e g e d i n h is a ffi d a v it t h a t M r M o y a n e h a d a c t e d m a l ic io u s ly i n la y i n g th o s e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t him. I s t a te d i n th a t ju d g m e n t th a t in d u e c o u r s e I w o u ld is s u e d ir e c t io n s o n t h e w a y f o r w a r d . T h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s d ir e c ti o n s . S u b s e q u e n t t o t h e d e l iv e r y o f my ju d g m e n t I is s u e d d i r e c t i o n s w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e o u ts t a n d i n g is s u e . 10 T h e r e l e v a n t p a r ts o f t h e d ir e c t io n s r e a d a n d I q u o t e . 1 . M r G o r d h a n m u s t d e li v e r t o t h e c o m m is s io n a n d s e r v e o n M r Monyane on or before Wednesday 15 May 2019 a short c la r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v i t i n w h ic h h e c l a r i f ie s w h e t h e r i n s t a ti n g i n h is s t a te m e n t o f 11 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 t h a t M r M o n y a n e a c t e d m a lic i o u s i n l a y in g c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m a n d o t h e r s . H e m e a n t – h e m e a n t t h a t: a . I n l a y i n g c h a r g e s a g a i n s t M r G o r d h a n a n d o th e r s M r M o y a n e w a s m o t iv a te d w h o l ly o r i n p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e t h e o b je c t iv e s o f s t a t e c a p t u r e o r h e w a s a b u s i n g a l e g a l 20 p r o c e s s fo r h is o w n p e r s o n a l g o a ls t h a t h a d e i t h e r n o t h i n g o r li t tl e t o d o w i t h a l e g i ti m a t e c o m p l a i n t r e l a ti n g to a n a ll e g e d crime. 2 . To t h e e x t e n t t h a t 1 a a b o v e m a y n o t c o r r e c t ly r e fl e c t w h a t M r Gordhan meant. H e m u s t s u c c in c t ly s t a t e w h a t h e m e a n t w h e n h e s t a te d t h a t M r M o y a n e h a d a c te d m a lic io u s ly i n la y i n g t h e Page 2 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m a n d o th e r s . ” M r G o r d h a n ’s c l a r if ic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t . d e li v e r e d a c l a r i fic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t . I n d u e c o u r s e Mr G o r d h a n I n th a t a ff id a v i t h e a m o n g o t h e r things said: a . H e h a d n e v e r s a id t h a t M r M o y a n e h a d a c t e d m a l ic i o u s ly w h e n h e la id c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m . b . I t w a s Mr M o y a n e w h o h a d s a i d i n h i s a ff id a v it t h a t Mr G o r d h a n h a d i m p l ie d th a t h e h a d a c t e d m a li c i o u s l y i n l a y i n g t h e c r i m i n a l c o m p la i n t a g a in s t h i m . 10 c . H e d i d n o t k n o w M r M o y a n e ’s s t a t e o f m i n d w h e n Mr M o y a n e l a i d t h e c r i m i n a l c o m p l a in t a g a in s t h i m . d . M r M o y a n e ’s m o t iv e i n la y i n g t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m w a s ir r e l e v a n t . e . H e d is a g r e e d w i th M r M o y a n e ’s e x p l a n a t io n th a t i n la y i n g t h e c r i m i n a l c o m p l a i n t a g a in s t h i m M r M o y a n e h a d a c t e d a s a n y r e a s o n a b l e c o m m i s s i o n o f S A R S i n h i s p o s i ti o n w o u ld h a v e acted. f . H e p e r s o n a ll y b e l ie v e d t h a t M r M o y a n e - I a m s o r r y I a m g o i n g t o r e p e a t th a t . H e p e r s o n a ll y b e l i e v e d t h a t : “ M r M o y a n e d id a b u s e 20 le g a l p r o c e s s e s f o r r e a s o n s a lr e a d y e x p l a i n e d in h i s e v i d e n c e . ” “ I n my e v id e n c e . ” g . H i s b e li e f t h a t Mr M o y a n e h a d a b u s e d l e g a l p r o c e s s e s w a s a n d I quote: “ B a s e d o n m y e x p e r ie n c e o f h i s d e f i a n t a t t i tu d e a n d v il i fic a ti o n o f m e f o ll o w i n g m y r e a p p o i n t m e n t a s M in is t e r o f Fi n a n c e w h ic h w a s a i m e d a t fo r c i n g m e to r e s i g n fr o m t h a t Page 3 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 p o s i ti o n s o t h a t th e c a p t u r e o f N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y c o u ld p r o c e e d u n d e r a d i ffe r e n t M i n is te r. ” h . “ To u s e t h e w o r d s o f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s d i r e c t io n s I t h e r e fo r e d o m e a n th a t M r M o y a n e : ‘ w a s m o ti v a t e d w h o l ly o r in p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e t h e o b je c tiv e s o f s ta t e c a p tu r e ’ a n d th a t ‘h e w a s a b u s in g a l e g a l p r o c e s s f o r h is o w n p e r s o n a l g o a l s t h a t h a d e i t h e r n o t h in g o r li t tl e t o d o w i th a le g it i m a t e c o m p l a i n t r e la t in g t o a n a ll e g e d c r i m e . ” T h i s s t a t e m e n t b y M r G o r d h a n a p p e a r s to b e l i n k e d t o t h a t p a r t o f t h e 10 d ir e c t io n s w h ic h r e q u i r e d h i m t o s a y w h e t h e r h e m e a n t t h a t in l a y i n g t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m M r M o y a n e “ w a s m o t iv e d w h o ll y o r in p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e t h e o b j e c t iv e s o f s t a t e c a p t u r e . ” I “ h e b e l ie v e s th a t Mr G o r d h a n t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s p e r s o n a l g o a ls w h i l e h e w a s S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r i n c lu d e d t h e a d v a n c e m e n t o f t h e s ta t e c a p tu r e p r o j e c t . ” j. H i s b e li e f th a t M r M o y a n e ’s p e r s o n a l g o a ls ‘ w h il e h e w a s C o m m i s s i o n e r o f S A R S “ i n c l u d e d th e a d v a n c e m e n t o f t h e s ta t e c a p tu r e p r o j e c t ” i s fo u n d e d o n w h a t “ is f o u n d e d o n w h a t w e a ll n o w k n o w a b o u t h o w ‘t h e f a i l u r e o f i n t e g r it y a n d g o v e r n a n c e a t 20 S A R S s o u n d ly e v i d e n c e d b y t h e c h a n g e o v e r fo u r y e a r s h a s c e r t a i n l y c o m p r o m is e d t h e p e r f o r m a n c e o f i ts c o r e fu n c t io n o f c o l l e c ti n g t a x t o t h e d e tr i m e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y a t la r g e ’ a s f o u n d b y J u s t ic e Nugent in th e Commission o f In q u ir y i n to tax a d m i n is tr a t i o n a n d g o v e r n a n c e b y S A R S [ Th e N u g e n t I n q u ir y p a g e 4 7 7 p a r a g r a p h 1 9 o f Th e Fi n a l R e p o r t o f t h e N u g e n t Page 4 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 I n q u i r y ]’ ” D i d Mr G o r d h a n e v e r a ll e g e m a li c e o n M r M o y a n e ’s p a r t ? 5 . Th e d ir e c t io n s o f 6 M a y 2 0 1 9 w e r e is s u e d o n t h e b a s is t h a t M r G o r d h a n h a d a l l e g e d i n h is s t a t e m e n t o f 11 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 to t h i s c o m m i s s io n t h a t M r M o y a n e h a d a c t e d m a l ic i o u s l y i n la y i n g t h e c h a r g e s t h a t h e h a d la i d a g a i n s t h i m . I n h i s c la r i fi c a t o r y a ff id a v i t M r G o r d h a n s a y s h e n e v e r m a d e s u c h a n a ll e g a t io n . H e r e is w h y i t w a s s t a t e d i n t h e d ir e c ti o n s t h a t M r G o r d h a n h a d a ll e g e d t h a t M r M o y a n e h a d a c te d m a lic i o u s ly i n l a y i n g th e c h a r g e s th a t h e h a d 10 la id a g a in s t h i m . a . I n th e s e n t e n c e – i n t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 o f M r G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t o f 11 O c to b e r 2 0 1 8 M r G o r h a n s a i d a n d I q u o t e : “ C h a r g e s a g a in s t m e r e l a ti n g to t h a t u n i t h a d b e e n fi le d b y Mr Moyane on 15 May 2015 [SAPS Brooklyn Case Number 427/05/15]”. b . I n p a r a g r a p h 11 3 o ff th e s a m e s t a te m e n t M r G o r d h a n s t a t e s a n d I q u o t e : “ T h is s e t o f e v e n t s c o m b i n e d w it h w h a t i s s e t o u t b e l o w w a s th e b e g i n n in g o f w h a t a p p e a r e d t o b e a c a m p a i g n t o f o r c e m e to r e s i g n a s M in is t e r o f Fi n a n c e a n d c o n ti n u e th e e ff o r t s t o 20 c a p tu r e t h e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y th e r e a ft e r. ” T h e s e t o f e v e n ts r e fe r r e d t o a t t h e b e g i n n in g o f p a r a g r a p h 11 3 s e e m s t o i n c l u d e t h e e v e n t o f f il in g – o f th e fi li n g o f t h e c h a r g e s b y M r M o y a n e a g a in s t M r G o r d h a n m e n t io n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 o f Mr G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t . c . I n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 0 o f h is O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 s t a t e m e n t M r G o r d h a n s a i d Page 5 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h a t “ t h e o r c h e s tr a t e d c a m p a i g n a g a i n s t m e a n d o th e r l e a d e r s o f N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y r a g e d w it h in c a b i n e t , t h e i n s t it u ti o n s o f s ta t e a n d o n c e r t a i n m e d i a a n d s o c i a l m e d i a p l a t fo r ms . ” H e th e n s a y s t h a t t h a t c a m p a i g n “ s h i f te d t o y e t a n o th e r fr o n t la t e r i n t h e y e a r w h e n I b e c a m e th e ta r g e t o f m a lic i o u s a n d s e e m i n g ly p o l it ic a l ly m o t iv a t e d c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s . ” T h e c h a r g e s w h ic h M r G o r d h a n d e s c r ib e s i n t h is q u o t a ti o n a s “ m a lic i o u s a n d p o li t ic a l ly m o t iv a te d criminal charges” are the charges “that he says I paragraph 104 o f h is s t a t e m e n t w e r e fi le d b y Mr M o y a n e a g a i n s t h i m . ” 10 I t h i n k i t is w h a t Mr G o r d h a n s a y s in p a r a g r a p h s 1 0 4 , 11 3 a n d 1 3 0 o f h is s t a te m e n t a n d p o s s i b l y e l s e w h e r e a s w e ll t h a t s u g g e s ts t h a t M r G o r d h a n m e a n t t h a t M r M o y a n e h a d a c t e d m a l ic io u s ly i n la y i n g th e charges against him. M r M o y a n e s a y s i n h is a ffi d a v i t i n t h e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r L e a v e t o C r o s s e x a m in e Mr G o r d h a n th a t M r G o r d h a n i m p li e d s u c h a ll e g a t io n i n h is s t a te m e n t . C o u n c il f o r Mr M o y a n e s u b m i t s th a t w h e th e r Mr G o r d h a n m a d e th e a l le g a ti o n e x p r e s s ly o r b y i m p l ic a t i o n i s n e i t h e r h e r e n o r t h e r e a s w h a t is i m p o r t a n t is th a t i t w a s m a d e . 20 7 . B e a r i n g in m i n d t h a t e a r l i e r i n h is s t a te m e n t Mr G o r d h a n h a d ta lk e d o f M r M o y a n e h a v i n g la id c r i m in a l – c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n d i ffi c u l t to th in k t h a t w h e n Mr G o r d h a n s a i d h e b e c a m e t h e ta r g e t o f m a l ic i o u s a n d s e e m in g ly p o li t ic a ll y m o ti v a t e d criminal charges he did not also intend to mean that the person who la id t h o s e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m a ls o a c t e d m a lic i o u s ly in la y i n g t h e m . Page 6 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M r G o r d h a n ’s r e li a n c e o n t h e f i n d i n g s o f J u s ti c e N u g e n t. 8. M r G o r d h a n a ls o h i g h li g h ts c e r ta i n fi n d i n g s b y J u s t ic e N u g e n t w h i c h h e s a y s fo r m a n d I q u o t e – d o u b l e q u o t e s “ t h e b a s is f o r m y b e li e f t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s a c t io n s a s S A R S C o m m i s s io n e r w e r e p a r t o r t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e Pr o je c t . ” M r G o r d h a n t h e n d e a ls w i th t h e s e f i n d in g s in p a r a g r a p h s 2 3 t o 3 3 o f h is a ffi d a v i t w h e r e a f t e r c o m e s t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h o f t h e a ff id a v i t. 9 . Mr G o r d h a n r e f e r s t o p a r a g r a p h s 3 5 to 5 0 o f J u s ti c e N u g e n t ’s in t e r i m r e p o r t . H e s t a te s t h a t is t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s J u s t ic e 10 N u g e n t s e t o u t “ t h e e x tr a o r d in a r y t u r m o i l a t S A R S a n d f o r i ts s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t i n p a r ti c u l a r th a t f o ll o w e d Mr M o y a n e ’s a p p o in t m e n t . ” H e th e n s a y s in th e f o l l o w in g p a r a g r a p h t h a t “ th is i n c l u d e d t h e f il in g o f h is c r i m i n a l c o m p l a i n t a g a i n s t m e in c ir c u m s ta n c e s th a t J u s tic e N u g e n t f o u n d ‘ u n c l e a r ’ a n d w h ic h w e r e l a t e r w i th d r a w n . T h is t u r m o i l s a w t h e r e m o v a l o f m a n y s e n io r S A R S o ff ic ia ls c r e a t in g th e o p p o r tu n i t y f o r Mr M o y a n e t o a p p o in t s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t a t S A R S w h o f a i le d to s h o w th e s a m e i n t e g r i ty, s k il l , c o m m i t m e n t – o r c o m m i t m e n t t o i t s c r i t ic a l functions.” 1 0 . M r G o r d h a n g o e s o n t o s t a t e th a t i n h is s ta t e m e n t to t h is 20 c o m m i s s io n d a t e d 11 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 s p e c i fi c a l ly i n p a r a g r a p h s 1 0 4 , 1 2 7 and 127.4 he “recorded numerous examples of the acrimonious nature o f M r M o y a n e ’s r e j e c ti o n o f m y o v e r s i g h t w h il e I w a s M i n i s t e r o f Fi n a n c e a n d h i s i n s u l ti n g a t t a c k s o n m e f o l lo w in g m y r e a p p o i n t m e n t a s M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . ” M r G o r d h a n th e n s a y s i n t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h “ t h is p r o v id e s t h e Page 7 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 c o n te x t t o a n d t h e b a s i s fo r m y b e li e f t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s la y i n g o f a c o m p la i n t a g a i n s t m e w a s s o m e t h i n g o t h e r t h a n th e a c t io n s o f a r e a s o n a b l e c o m m is s i o n e r o f S A R S . ” T h e r e f e r e n c e t o th is “ a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f th is p a s s a g e in c l u d e s w h a t M r G o r d h a n s a i d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 o f t h e c l a r i f ic a to r y a ffi d a v i t . ” 11 . Mr G o r d h a n th e n r e f e r s t o a f in d in g m a d e b y J u s tic e N u g e n t a n d q u o t e d t h e f o ll o w i n g p a s s a g e f r o m J u s t ic e N u g e n t’s f in a l report. 10 “ T h e e ff e c ti v e f u n c ti o n i n g o f S A R S c a u s e d f o r c l o s e c o l l a b o r a ti o n b e t w e e n S A R S a n d o t h e r i n s ti t u ti o n s . It is to be expected that the Commissioner of SARS w i ll li a i s e c l o s e l y w i t h th e M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e b u t w h il e M r G o r d h a n h e l d t h a t p o s i ti o n t h e r e w a s a c ti v e d e f ia n c e . When Mr Gordhan became concerned at t h e s t e p s b e i n g t a k e n t o c h a n g e t h e o p e r a ti n g m o d e l h e a s k e d f o r it t o b e s u s p e n d e d b u t th a t w a s ig n o r e d . W h e n h e d is a p p r o v e d t h e – th e e x t e n t o f b o n u s e s t o b e p a i d M r M o y a n e a g a i n d e f i e d h i m b r in g i n g h i m 20 in t o c o n fl ic t w i th t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l . A c c o r d in g to Tr e a s u r y o ffi c i a l s t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n Tr e a s u r y a n d M r M o y a n e h a s a ll b e e n b r o k e n d o w n . ” 1 2 . M r G o r d h a n a l s o s ta t e s “ c o n s i d e r i n g m y in t e r a c ti o n s w it h M r M o y a n e o v e r t h i s p e r i o d a n d t h e s u b s e q u e n t fi n d i n g s o f t h e N u g e n t I n q u i r y my p e r s o n a l b e l i e f r e m a in s t h a t M r M o y a n e a b u s e d h is p o s i ti o n Page 8 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a s th e fo r m e r S A R S C o m m is s i o n e r t o i n s ti t u te c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s a g a in s t m e a n d o t h e r s u n d e r S A P S B r o o k ly n C a s e N u m b e r 4 2 7 / 0 5 / 1 5 s in c e t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n a b l e b a s is f o r h i m t o d o s o . ” 1 3 . M r G o r d h a n g o e s o n t o s t a t e t h a t h e v ie w e d Mr M o y a n e ’s c o n d u c t “ i n fi li n g th e c h a r g e s a g a in s t m e a s y e t a n o t h e r e x p r e s s io n o f t h e d e fi a n t a t ti t u d e h e e x h ib i te d t o w a r d s m e a s fo u n d b y J u s tic e Nugent.” I p a u s e h e r e t o m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t t h is a l le g e d ly d e fi a n t a tt i tu d e b y M r M o y a n e t o w a r d s M r G o r d h a n o f w h ic h M r G o r d h a n s a y s 10 t h e l a y in g o f t h e c r i m in a l c h a r g e o r c o m p la in t w a s a n o th e r e x p r e s s i o n is s a i d b y M r G o r d h a n e l s e w h e r e i n h is c la r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v it t o h a v e b e e n p a r t o f a c a m p a i g n a i m e d a t p u t ti n g p r e s s u r e o n h i m t o r e s i g n a s M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e s o a s t o c a p t u r e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t M i n is t e r. M r G o r d h a n a d d e d t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s c o n d u c t in “ f ili n g th e c h a r g e s ” “ a g a i n s t m e ” “ a l s o s e r v e d t h e p o l it ic a l p u r p o s e o f a t te m p t i n g t o p r e s s u r e m e a n d o t h e r s t o r e s i g n th e r e b y a d v a n c in g s t a te c a p t u r e a n d th e c a p tu r e o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y in p a r ti c u la r. ” 1 4 . T h e la s t p a r a g r a p h i n M r G o r d h a n ’s c la r i fi c a t o r y a ff id a v i t 20 is t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t M r G o r d h a n s t a n d s b y h is c o n t e n t i o n t h a t is [i n d is t in c t] th e n a ti o n b y M r M o y a n e ’s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s r e g a r d in g M r M o y a n e ’s “ p e r s o n a l g o a ls , p e r s o n a l m o tiv e f o r fi li n g th e c o m p l a i n t t h a t l e d to c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s b e i n g b r o u g h t a g a i n s t m e a n d m y p e r s o n a l b e li e f t h a t t h o s e c h a r g e s w e r e p a r t o f t h e c a m p a i g n t o f o r c e m y r e s ig n a ti o n fr o m t h e p o s i ti o n o f M in is t e r o f F in a n c e s o a s to f a c i li t a te Page 9 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h e c a p tu r e o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y is u n li k e l y t o a s s i s t t h e i m p o r t a n t a n d u r g e n t w o r k o f th e c o m m i s s i o n g iv e n i ts ti m e a n d r e s o u r c e c o n s t r a i n t s . ” 1 5 . Mr G o r d h a n a l s o s t a te s t h a t h is s ta t e m e n t t h a t Mr M o y a n e a b u s e d le g a l p r o c e s s e s w h e n h e la id a c o m p la i n t a g a i n s t i s b a s e d o n h is e x p e r i e n c e o f Mr M o y a n e ’s [d e fi a n t ] a t t it u d e a n d v i li fi c a t io n o f m e f o ll o w i n g m y r e a p p o i n t m e n t a s M in is t e r o f Fi n a n c e . ” M r G o r d h a n s ta t e s – t h e n s t a t e s t h a t h e b e l i e v e s t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s “ d e f i a n t a t t it u d e ” a n d v il i fic a ti o n “ w e r e a i m e d a t fo r c i n g o r p r e s s u r in g m e to r e s ig n fr o m th a t p o s i ti o n s o th a t th e c a p t u r e o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y c o u l d p r o c e e d u n d e r a 10 d i ff e r e n t M i n i s t e r. ” M r M o y a n e ’s r e s p o n s e t o t h e c l a r i fic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t . 1 6 . M r M o y a n e d i d n o t d e li v e r a n a ffi d a v it i n r e s p o n s e t o M r G o r d h a n ’s c l a r i fic a t o r y a ffi d a v i t . H e d e liv e r e d w r i tt e n s u b m i s s i o n s . T h i s w a s n o t i n c o n s i s t e n t w it h th e d ir e c ti o n s is s u e d o n 6 M a y 2 0 1 9 . I n t h e w r i t t e n s u b m is s i o n s c o u n c il fo r M r M o y a n e a p p o i n t e d t h a t th e r e a s o n w h y M r M o y a n e d i d n o t d e l iv e r a n a ffi d a v i t w a s t h a t “ M r G o r d h a n ’s a ffi d a v i t a c t u a l ly c o n fir m s t h e a l le g a ti o n s o f m a l ic e o n th e p a r t o f M r M o y a n e . ” I n s u p p o r t o f t h i s c o u n c i l fo r M r M o y a n e r e fe r r e d t o a m o n g o t h e r s M r G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t s q u o te d in 3 b a n d I a b o v e . 20 M r M o y a n e ’s c o u n c il s u b m i t t e d th a t M r M o y a n e h a d a lr e a d y s a i d t h a t i n la y i n g t h e c r i mi n a l c o m p l a i n t a g a i n s t M r G o r d h a n h e d i d n o t a c t m a lic i o u s ly b u t a c t e d i n g o o d f a i t h a n d r e a s o n a b ly. T h e m e r i ts . 17. While Mr Gordhan states he never alleged that Mr Moyane a c t e d m a l ic io u s i n l a y in g t h e c r i m i n a l c o m p l a i n t h e l a i d a g a in s t h i m h e Page 10 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 s t a te s th a t a s S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r M r M o y a n e h a d a d o p t e d a d e fi a n t a tt i tu d e to w a r d s h i m a n d h a d v il if i e d h i m w i th t h e a i m o f fo r c i n g o r p r e s s u r in g h i m in t o r e s ig n i n g a s Mi n is t e r o f F i n a n c e s o th e c a p t u r e o f N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y c o u ld p r o c e e d u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t M in is t e r. Mr G o r d h a n a ls o s t a t e s t h a t M r M o y a n e “ w a s m o ti v e d w h o lly o r in p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e t h e o b je c ts o f s t a t e c a p t u r e . ” Thereafter he s t a te s t h a t h e b e li e v e s th a t w h i l e M r M o y a n e w a s S A R S C o m m i s s io n e r h is p e r s o n a l g o a ls i n c lu d e d th e a d v a n c e m e n t o f t h e S t a te C a p t u r e P r o je c t. 10 1 8 . Th e r e c a n b e d o u b t t h a t i f M r M o y a n e ’s d e fi a n t a t t i tu d e t o w a r d s a n d v i li f ic a ti o n o f M r G o r d h a n w e r e a i m e d a t fo r c i n g o r p r e s s u r in g t h e l a t te r i n t o r e s ig n i n g a s M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e s o t h a t t h e c a p tu r e o f t h e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y c o u ld p r o c e e d u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e i t w o u l d g e n e r a l s p e a k in g b e i n t h e i n te r e s t o f th e work of the commission to grant Mr Moyane Leave to Cross-examine Mr Gordhan. E q u a l ly t h e r e c a n b e n o d o u b t th a t i f i n l a y i n g t h e c r i m i n a l c o m p la i n t a g a in s t M r G o r d h a n M r M o y a n e w a s “ m o t iv a te d w h o l ly o r i n p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e th e o b j e c t iv e s o f s t a t e c a p t u r e i t w o u l d g e n e r a l ly s p e a k i n g b e i n th e i n t e r e s t o f t h e w o r k o f t h i s c o m m i s s i o n 20 t h a t I g r a n t Mr M o y a n e L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e M r G o r d h a n . 1 9 . M r G o r d h a n d id n o t i n h is s t a te m e n t o f 11 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 e x p r e s s ly s a y t h a t h e b e l i e v e d t h a t i n a d o p ti n g t h e d e fi a n t a t ti t u d e t h a t he says Mr Moyane adopted towards him after his reappointment as M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e a n d i n v i li fy in g h i m a s h e s a y s Mr M o y a n e d id M r M o y a n e s o u g h t t o f o r c e h i m o r t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n h i m t o r e s i g n fr o m h is Page 11 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 p o s i ti o n a s M i n i s t e r o f F in a n c e s o t h a t t h e c a p tu r e o f N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y c o u l d p r o c e e d u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t M i n i s te r. N o r d id M r G o r d h a n s a y i n t h a t s ta t e m e n t t h a t h is p o s i ti o n i s t h a t i n l a y i n g t h e c o m p la in t a g a i n s t h i m M r M o y a n e w a s m o t iv a te d w h o ll y o r in p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t to a d v a n c e t h e o b j e c ti v e s o f s t a t e c a p tu r e . 2 0 . Mr G o r d h a n a l s o d i d n o t s a y i n t h a t s t a t e m e n t th a t M r M o y a n e ’s p e r s o n a l g o a l s w h il e h e w a s S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r i n c l u d e d the advancement of the State Capture Project. However Mr Gordhan s e e m s t o e x p la in t h is w h e n h e s a y s i n h is c l a r i f ic a t o r y a ffi d a v it t h a t 10 r e l e v a n t f i n d i n g s m a d e b y J u s t ic e N u g e n t f o r m t h e b a s i s o f c e r t a i n r e l e v a n t f in d in g s m a d e b y J u s t ic e N u g e n t fo r m th e b a s is o f h is b e li e f t h a t Mr M o y a n e ’s p e r s o n a l g o a ls w h il e h e w a s S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r in c l u d e d t h e a d v a n c e m e n t o f t h e S t a t e C a p tu r e Pr o j e c t . I t w o u l d s e e m t h a t s i n c e th o s e fi n d i n g s h a d n o t b e e n m a d e a s y e t w h e n M r G o r d h a n m a d e h is s t a t e m e n t in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 M r G o r d h a n c o u l d n o t h a v e f o r m e d t h a t b e li e f a t t h e ti m e . H e n c e t h e a b s e n c e o f s u c h a l le g a ti o n s i n t h a t s t a te m e n t . M r G o r d h a n ’s b e li e f s e e ms t o b e a b e li e f t h a t h e fo r m e d a ft e r J u s t ic e N u g e n t h a d m a d e t h e fi n d i n g s t o w h ic h M r G o r d h a n r e f e r s in h is c l a r i f ic a to r y a ff id a v i t . 20 2 1 . I n t h e d ir e c ti o n s I is s u e d o n 6 M a y 2 0 1 9 i t w a s s t a te d t h a t t h e d i r e c ti o n s w e r e n o t i n te n d e d t o i n v it e M r G o r d h a n o r Mr M o y a n e t o f u r n is h n e w fa c t s w h ic h w e r e n o t c o n t a in e d in t h e i r r e s p e c tiv e a ff id a v i ts t h a t h a d a l r e a d y b e e n d e liv e r e d t o t h e c o m m is s i o n b u t th a t o n ly c la r i fi c a t io n w a s s o u g h t . T h o s e d ir e c t io n s w e r e a l s o t o t h e e ffe c t th a t s h o u l d M r M o y a n e w is h t o c o m m e n t o n Mr G o r d h a n ’s c l a r if ic a to r y Page 12 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a ffi d a v i t h e m u s t d e l iv e r t o th e a c t in g s e c r e ta r y o f th e c o m m i s s io n a n d s e r v e o n M r G o r d h a n a s h o r t a ff id a v i t o n o r b e f o r e 2 1 M a y 2 0 1 9 . ” A s a l r e a d y i n d ic a te d a b o v e M r M o y a n e e le c t e d n o t to c o m m e n t b y w a y o f a n a ffi d a v i t o n M r G o r d h a n ’s c l a r i f ic a to r y a ffi d a v i t . The r e s u l t i s t h a t M r M o y a n e h a s n o t r e s p o n d e d b y w a y o f a n a ff i d a v i t o r a ffir m e d d e c l a r a ti o n to M r G o r d h a n ’s c la r i f ic a t o r y a ff id a v i t to t h e e ff e c t t h a t h e d o e s m e a n t h a t M r M o y a n e w a s m o ti v a t e d in w h o l e o r i n p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e th e o b j e c t iv e o f s t a te c a p t u r e o r t h a t M r G o r d h a n b e l ie v e s in t h e l ig h t o f c e r ta i n f in d i n g s m a d e b y J u s tic e 10 N u g e n t i n h is r e p o r ts t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s p e r s o n a l g o a ls w h i l e h e w a s S A R S C o m m is s i o n e r i n c l u d e d t h e a d v a n c e m e n t o f t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e P r o je c t. I n d e e d h e h a s n o t t h e r e f o r e g iv e n h i s v e r s i o n t o t h is e v i d e n c e . 2 3 . O r d in a r il y I w o u l d n o t g r a n t a n a p p l ic a n t L e a v e t o C r o s s e x a m in e a w it n e s s i f h e h a s n o t g iv e n h is v e r s i o n t o th e a ll e g a ti o n s o r e v i d e n c e i m p lic a ti n g h i m . I n d e e d th is i s w h a t h a p p e n e d I c o n s i d e r e d M r M o y a n e ’s a p p li c a t io n f o r L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e Mr G o r d h a n in r e s p e c t o f o t h e r is s u e s . H o w e v e r t h is t i m e M r M o y a n e p r e v i o u s ly d i d n o t c o n s i d e r i t n e c e s s a r y t o d e l iv e r a n a ff id a v i t t o d e a l w i th th e 20 a l le g a ti o n s o r e v i d e n c e i n Mr G o r d h a n ’s c l a r i f ic a t o r y a ff id a v i t . The d ir e c t io n s I h a d i s s u e d d i d n o t o b li g e h i m t o d o s o . 24. The day before the hearing of argument on whether I s h o u l d g r a n t M r M o y a n e L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n o n t h e o u t s t a n d i n g is s u e I c a u s e d a l e t t e r t o b e s e n t t o M e s s r s G o r d h a n ’s a n d M o y a n e ’s l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s in w h i c h I in d i c a t e d th a t m y p r i m a f a c ie Page 13 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 v ie w w a s t h a t I s h o u l d g r a n t M r M o y a n e L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e M r G o r d h a n b u t t h a t s h o u l d I g r a n t s u c h l e a v e i t c o u l d b e n e c e s s a r y th a t I d ir e c t M r M o y a n e to d e l iv e r a n a ffi d a v i t o r a ffir m e d d e c l a r a ti o n i n w h i c h he would set out his version. I n r e s p o n s e to t h e le t t e r Mr M o y a n e ’s le g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s f u r n is h e d th e c o m m i s s i o n w i t h a l e t t e r w h ic h w a s t o t h e e ffe c t t h a t M r M o y a n e ’s p r i m a r y c o n t e n t i o n w a s t h a t I s h o u ld grant him p r e c o n d i t io n . Leave to Cross-examine Mr Gordhan without any Th e l e t te r w a s a ls o t o th e e ffe c t t h a t t h e o t h e r o p ti o n s w e r e fo r m e to e i t h e r g r a n t Mr M o y a n e L e a v e t o C r o s s - E x a mi n e M r 10 G o r d h a n b u t d i r e c t h i m t o p r o v i d e h is v e r s io n f ir s t a s a p r e c o n d i ti o n o r d ir e c t M r M o y a n e to fir s t d e l iv e r h is a ffi d a v i t o r a ff ir m e d d e c la r a ti o n s e t ti n g o u t h i s v e r s io n a n d o n l y g r a n t h i m L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e Mr G o r d h a n t h e r e a f t e r. M r M o y a n e ’s c o u n c il c o n fir m e d t h is p o s it i o n d u r in g t h e h e a r i n g o f a r g u m e n t . I f I g r a n t M r M o y a n e L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n I w i ll h a v e t o d ir e c t h i m t o g iv e h is v e r s i o n . 2 5 . O n b e h a l f o f M r M o y a n e i t w a s s u b m it t e d th a t t h e p r i m a f a c i e v ie w I h a d e x p r e s s e d w i t h r e g a r d to g r a n t in g M r M o y a n e L e a v e to C r o s s - e x a m i n e M r G o r d h a n w a s j u s ti f ie d a n d c o r r e c t a n d th a t I s h o u ld g r a n t M r M o y a n e ’s a p p li c a t io n . 20 On behalf of Mr Gordhan it was s u b m i tt e d t h a t I s h o u l d d is m is s Mr M o y a n e ’s a p p li c a t io n b e c a u s e M r Gordhan had never said that in laying the complaint that Mr Moyane la id a g a i n s t M r G o r d h a n h e h a d a c te d m a l ic i o u s ly. Th e d i ffic u lt y t h a t a r i s e s fr o m t h is s u b m is s i o n o n b e h a l f o f M r G o r d h a n is t h a t a l t h o u g h Mr G o r d h a n d o e s n o t o r d o e s s a y t h a t h e n e v e r a ll e g e d t h a t M r M o y a n e a c t e d m a li c i o u s l y i n l a y i n g t h e c o m p l a i n t h e l a i d a g a i n s t h i m . H e s a y s Page 14 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 e ls e w h e r e in h is c l a r i fi c a t o r y a ff id a v i t th a t th e la y i n g o f t h e c o m p l a i n t b y M r M o y a n e h a d li t t le o r n o t h in g t o d o w i t h th e le g i t i m a te c o m p l a i n t r e l a ti n g t o a n a l l e g e d c r i m e . H e a ls o s a y s t h a t M r M o y a n e a b u s e d a le g a l p r o c e s s b y la y i n g t h e c o m p l a i n t t h a t h e l a i d a g a i n s t h i m . I a ls o u n d e r s ta n d h is e v i d e n c e t o b e t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t i n l a y in g t h e c r i m i n a l c o m p l a i n t t h a t h e la id a g a i n s t h i m M r M o y a n e s o u g h t to a d v a n c e t h e o b je c t s o f s ta t e c a p tu r e . 26. 10 A q u e s ti o n t h a t m a y b e a s k e d i s w h e t h e r b y r e q u ir i n g M r M o y a n e t o g iv e h is v e r s i o n t o th is C o m m is s i o n o n th e i s s u e s r a is e d in M r G o r d h a n ’s c l a r if ic a to r y a ff i d a v i t th is C o m m i s s i o n is n o t r e p e a ti n g t h e w o r k t h a t h a s a lr e a d y b e e n d o n e b y t h e S A R S C o m m i s s io n . Th is C o m m i s s i o n d o e s n o t w is h t o r e p e a t th e w o r k o f t h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n . H o w e v e r t w o o r th r e e o b s e r v a ti o n s n e e d t o b e m a d e in t h i s regard. T h e fir s t is t h a t t h e te r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n d i d n o t i n c l u d e a n i n v e s t i g a t io n i n t o a ll e g a t i o n s o f S t a t e Capture. S e c o n d l y, t h i s C o m m i s s i o n c a n n o t m a k e fi n d i n g s a g a i n s t M r M o y a n e o r a n y o n e f o r th a t m a t te r - I a m g o in g to r e p e a t t h a t . S e c o n d ly, 20 t h is Commission cannot make findings that M r M o y a n e o r a n y o n e f o r t h a t m a t t e r p e r f o r m e d th e ir d u t ie s i n o r d e r to a d v a n c e t h e S t a t e C a p t u r e P r o j e c t o r t h e o b j e c ts o f S t a te C a p t u r e w i t h o u t g iv in g s u c h a p e r s o n t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to b e h e a r d . I t is n e c e s s a r y f o r t h is C o m m i s s i o n to h e a r Mr M o y a n e ’s v e r s io n o r s id e o f t h e s t o r y a n d i f i t i s in th e i n te r e s t o f th e w o r k o f t h is C o m m i s s i o n t h a t h e b e g r a n te d l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r - M i n is t e r G o r d h a n . Page 15 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 G r a n t h i m s u c h l e a v e . A n a l le g a ti o n t h a t s o m e o n e p e r fo r m e d h is o r h e r d u t ie s i n o r d e r t o a d v a n c e t h e S t a te C a p t u r e Pr o je c t is a s e r io u s a ll e g a t i o n a n d t h o s e fa c i n g s u c h a n a ll e g a t i o n s h o u ld b e g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty to d e fe n d t h e m s e lv e s a g a i n s t i t . 27. I c o n s i d e r th a t s u b j e c t t o o n e c o n d it io n - it is i n t h e in t e r e s t o f t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s io n t o g r a n t Mr M o y a n e l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n . B e f o r e t h i s C o m m is s i o n i t m u s t r a n k a s t h e m o s t s e r i o u s a l le g a ti o n o r s t a t e m e n t fo r i t to b e s a i d t h a t y o u p e r fo r m e d y o u r o ffi c i a l 10 d u t ie s i n o r d e r t o a d v a n c e t h e o b je c t iv e s o f S t a te C a p t u r e a n d s p e a k i n g g e n e r a l ly. S u c h a p e r s o n s h o u l d b e g r a n te d le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e w i t h - i t i s i n t h e i n t e r e s t o f t h e w o r k o f th i s C o m m is s i o n t o d o s o . T h e c o n d i ti o n is t h a t M r M o y a n e w i ll h a v e t o d e li v e r a n a ffi d a v i t or a ff ir m e d c la r i fi c a t o r y a ff i d a v i t . is s u e s r a is e d in d e c l a r a t io n in response to M r G o r d h a n ’s S o a s to g iv e th is C o m m is s i o n h is v e r s io n o n M r G o r d h a n ’s a ffi d a v i t . I w il l therefore grant M r M o y a n e th e r e q u ir e d le a v e s u b j e c t to t h a t c o n d i t io n . I n t h e r e s u l t m y d e c is i o n is th e fo ll o w i n g : o n e , s u b je c t t o t w o b e l o w M r M o y a n e is h e r e b y g r a n t e d le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r G o r d h a n 20 o n a , w h e th e r in la y i n g t h e c r i m i n a l c o m p l a in t o r c h a r g e s a g a in s t M r G o r d h a n M r M o y a n e a c t e d m a l ic io u s ly. c r i m i n a l c o m p la i n t a g a i n s t M r G o r d h a n B, whether in laying the Mr Moyane was m o t iv a t e d w h o lly o r in p a r t b y o r h e s o u g h t t o a d v a n c e th e o b j e c t iv e s o f S t a t e Capture. C, whether in la y i n g th e criminal Page 16 of 194 c o m p la i n t against 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M r G o r d h a n M r M o y a n e w a s a b u s i n g a l e g a l p r o c e s s f o r h is o w n p e r s o n a l g o a ls t h a t h a d n o t h in g t o - n o t h i n g o r l it t le t o d o w i t h a le g i t i m a te c o m p l a i n t r e l a ti n g to a n a l le g e d c r i m e ? D, whether as Commissioner of SARS Mr Moyane sought to advance the State Capture Project. E , w h e t h e r M r M o y a n e ’s p e r s o n a l g o a ls w h il e h e w a s S A R S C o m m i s s i o n e r i n c l u d e d t h e a d v a n c e m e n t o f t h e S t a te C a p t u r e P r o j e c t . Tw o , M r M o y a n e is d ir e c t e d t o d e li v e r t o t h e Ac t in g S e c r e t a r y o r S e c r e t a r y o f t h e C o m m is s i o n o n o r b e fo r e 1 5 J a n u a r y 2 0 2 0 a n d 10 a ffi d a v i t o r a ffir m e d d e c l a r a t i o n i n w h i c h - i n w h ic h h e r e s p o n d s t o t h e c la r i fi c a t o r y a ffi d a v it d e l iv e r e d b y M r G o r d h a n . T h r e e , Mr M o y a n e ’s a ffi d a v i t o r a ffir m e d d e c l a r a ti o n m u s t make it clear which a v e r m e n ts or a l le g a t i o n s M r G o r d h a n ’s a ffi d a v it h e a d m i ts o r d e n i e s . or s ta t e m e n ts in W h a t th e b a s i s a r e fo r d e n y i n g o r d is p u ti n g t h o s e h e d e n i e s o r d i s p u te s a n d g iv e M r M o y a n e ’s f u ll v e r s i o n i n r e g a r d t o th e a l le g a ti o n s o r c o m m e n t s . F o u r, t h e a m o u n t o f ti m e t h a t w i ll b e g r a n t e d t o M r M o y a n e to c r o s s - e x a m in e Mr - to M r M o y a n e ’s counsel to cross-examine M r G o r d h a n w i ll b e d e te r m in e d a t a l a t e r d a te . T h a t is m y d e c is i o n . 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : N o t e d . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k w e w i ll ta k e a s h o r t b r e a k a n d t h e n r e s u m e to h e a r t h e e v id e n c e o f t o d a y ’s w i t n e s s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t i n o r d e r ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : W e n e e d to ju s t p u t s o m e m o r e d o c u m e n ts i n y o u r Page 17 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 w i t n e s s fi le . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : R e l a ti n g to c e r ta in m a t t e r s t h a t w il l b e r a is e d b y th e fir s t w i tn e s s . I f w e m a y d o s o . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. S o h o w m u c h ti m e d o y o u th i n k w e s h o u l d - 1 0 / 1 5 m i n u te s ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : 1 5 m in u t e s . CHAIRPERSON: 15 minutes? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. W e l l l e t u s m a k e i t - i t is a b o u t 1 3 mi n u te s past 10. Let us make it half past 10. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r P r e t o r i u s a r e y o u r e a d y ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e fi r s t w i tn e s s t o d a y is M r R i e a z S h a i k , b e t te r k n o w n a s M o S h a ik . 20 Before he takes the a ffir m a t i o n m a y I ju s t p o in t o u t th a t o n y o u r d e s k o r o n y o u r b e n c h C h a ir is a n e w b u n d l e , P P 1 t o P P 4 . P P 1 c o n ta in s t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M r S h a i k a n d P P 4 c o n t a i n s c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t s r e l e v a n t to th a t s ta t e m e n t, P P 2 a n d P P 3 a r e th e s t a t e m e n t s o f f u r t h e r w i t n e s s e s t o te s t i fy t o d a y a n d to m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y is P P 4 n o t p a r t o f P P 1 ? Page 18 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON: P P 4 i s i n t h a t b u n d le , it h a s j u s t b e e n p u t i n t h e r e . Ye s , b u t y o u s a y th o s e i t c o n s is t s o f a d d i ti o n a l d o c u m e n ts t h a t r e la t e t o P P 1 ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : P P 1 i s t h e s ta t e m e n t o f Mr S h a i k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : P P 2 a n d P P 3 a r e t h e s ta t e m e n ts o f t h e f u r t h e r w i t n e s s e s to t e s ti f y t o d a y a n d t o m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : 10 P P 4 c o n t a i n s c e r t a in a d d it i o n a l d o c u m e n ts r e l e v a n t t o P P 1 t h a t h a v e j u s t b e e n p l a c e d in t h e f il e . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l w h y a r e th e y n o t m a d e p a r t o f P P 1 , t h a t’s my q u e s t io n . A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e y c o u l d b e , th e y c o u l d b y, b u t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e y a r e o n ly r e le v a n t t o P P 1 ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s it is ju s t a n a d m i n is tr a t iv e i s s u e t h a t h a d to b e d e a lt w i th b e c a u s e t h e d o c u m e n ts w e r e p a g in a t e d , P P 1 t o P P 3 w e r e p a g in a t e d s o w h e n P P 4 c a m e a lo n g t h e p a g i n a t io n r e q u ir e d t h e m t o b e p l a c e d a t th e e n d . T h a t i s t h e r e a s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t p o s s i b l e t o c h a n g e t h a t o r i s t h a t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] 20 A D V P R E T O R I U S: W e c a n c h a n g e i t, i t is n o t a p r o b l e m C h a ir, w e c a n – i t is ju s t t h e p a g e n u m b e r t h a t is . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: I t m a y b e t h a t s i n c e it ’s b e e n d o n e i t m i g h t b e d i ff ic u l t , I a m j u s t h a v in g a l o o k w h e th e r i t w o u ld – a ll t h a t w o u ld b e n e e d e d is to c h a n g e t h e p a g i n a t i o n , m a y b e i f t h e la s t p a g e o f M r S h a i k ’s s t a te m e n t is f o r e x a m p le p a g e 2 0 t h e n t h o s e o t h e r d o c u m e n t s Page 19 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 could come after page 20 and be marked 20A, 20B and so on. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a t c o u ld b e d o n e , a n d w e c a n d o t h a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e r e is o n e o th e r q u a l i fi c a t io n i n t h a t t h e d o c u m e n ts i n P P 4 a r e r e l e v a n t t o a l l th e w i t n e s s e s b e c a u s e a ll t h e w i t n e s s e s d e a l w it h t h e s a m e s u b j e c t m a t t e r f o r t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s a t le a s t . CHAIRPERSON: O h t h e y a r e n o t r e le v a n t o n ly to Mr S h a ik ’s s t a te m e n t ? 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON: N o t o n l y. B e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y. M a y b e – a n d t h e y a r e n o t r e f e r r e d t o i n h is s t a te m e n t ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : No. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h e n m a y b e i t ’s f in e , w e c a n l e a v e t h e m a s t h e y a r e , I t h i n k i t’s s i m p ly b e c a u s e y o u s a i d o r I u n d e r s to o d y o u t o s a y th e y a r e – t h e y b e lo n g to M r S h a i k ’s s t a te m e n t b u t i f t h e y a r e r e l e v a n t f o r a l l t h e w i t n e s s e s t h e n th e y c a n s t a y a s P P 4 . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir, j u s t b y w a y o f c l a r if ic a ti o n f u r th e r th e s e s t a te m e n ts w e r e ta k e n a n d r e c o r d e d s o m e t i m e a g o , s i n c e t h e n it w a s 20 f e l t b y th e L e g a l Te a m t h a t f u r th e r m a t te r s s h o u ld b e d e a l t w i th , o f a g e n e r a l n a t u r e a n d o f a s p e c i fi c n a t u r e , b e c a u s e th e s u b j e c t m a t te r r e l a t e s to a l l t h r e e w i tn e s s e s , t h e f o u r th s e c ti o n o f t h e b u n d le w o u ld r a l ly l o g i c a ll y a p p ly t o a ll o f t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t ’s f in e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Page 20 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e f il e c o n ta in i n g t h e s t a t e m e n ts o f M r R i e a z S h a i k , M r N j e n j e a n d M r M a q e tu k a w il l b e a d m i t te d a s E X H I B I T P P a n d Mr S h a i k ’s s ta t e m e n t w il l b e a d m i t t e d a s P P 1 , M r N j e n j e ’s s t a t e m e n t a s PP2, Mr M a q e tu k a ’s s t a te m e n t as PP3 and c e r t a in a d d i t io n a l d o c u m e n ts a t th e e n d o f t h e b u n d l e a s P P 4 . Ye s ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, m a y I j u s t b y w a y o f i n tr o d u c t io n r e fe r to a f e w m a t t e r s r e l e v a n t t o t h e e v id e n c e o f t h e w i tn e s s . The t h r e e w i t n e s s e s t o g iv e e v i d e n c e t o d a y a n d t o m o r r o w w il l d e a l w i t h t h e a c ti v i ti e s o f s e c u r i ty o ffi c i a l s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e w e d o t h a t I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r c o u n s e l o n a w a t c h a n d b r ie f w o u l d li k e t o g o o n r e c o r d o r h e is fi n e w i th o u t g o in g o n record. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Perhaps he should. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV LAMOLA: Let him place himself on record. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir p e r s o n . M y n a m e is M a d i m e t j a L a m o l a , I a m h e r e o n a w a tc h a n d b r ie f o n b e h a lf o f D r S iy a b o n g a C w e l e . CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u , t h e f o r m e r M i n is t e r o f – I g e t c o n fu s e d a b o u t s e c u r i ty a n d in t e l li g e n c e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] 20 ADV LAMOLA: M in is t e r o f I n te ll ig e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, a lr i g h t , th a n k y o u . ADV LAMOLA: Thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : As I w a s s a y i n g C h a ir t h e w i t n e s s e s w h o w i ll t e s ti fy t o d a y a n d to m o r r o w w i ll d e a l w i t h t h e a c t iv i t ie s o f c e r ta in Page 21 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 s e c u r i ty o ffi c i a l s , r e l e v a n t t o t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o f t h e C o m m i s s io n . T h e f ir s t w i t n e s s a s w e h a v e s t a te d i s Mr S h a ik . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : B u t i n a d d it i o n b y v ir t u e o f th e k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e r i e n c e o f M r S h a ik in t h e s e c u r i ty in t e ll i g e n c e fi e ld h e is a b l e to a s s is t t h e C o m m i s s io n f ir s tl y to u n d e r s ta n d t h e v a r io u s c o n s ti t u t i o n a l s tr u c t u r e s w h ic h d e a l w i th t h e in t e l li g e n c e fu n c t io n d ic t a te d b y t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a n d t h e r e la t io n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e m . a s s is t 10 th e Commission to h ig h li g h t and H e is a l s o a b l e to explain th e relevant C o n s t i tu t io n a l p r o v is i o n s , o b v i o u s l y n o t t o i n te r p r e t a n d a p p ly t h e m , t h a t i s c l e a r l y t h e f u n c ti o n o f t h e C o u r t a n d t o th e e x t e n t th a t y o u n e e d t o d o s o C h a ir y o u r s e l f , b u t t o e x p l a i n g e n e r a lly th e s ta n d a r d s o f c o n d u c t r e q u ir e d b y t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n o f s e c u r i ty e n t i ti e s a n d o p e r a t iv e s a b o u t w h ic h t h e r e w il l b e s u b s t a n tiv e – s u b s t a n t ia l e v i d e n c e i n a d d i ti o n in 2 0 2 0 a n d t h a t w il l b e th e fir s t p a r t o f th e M r S h a ik ’s e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : 3 3 N o t ic e s h a v e b e e n is s u e d , t h e s t a t e m e n ts a s I h a v e s a id . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s a l o n g ti m e a g o ? 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s , a c c e p t a b l y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th e 3 3 N o ti c e s h a v e b e e n is s u e d , th e s ta t e m e n ts a s y o u w il l h a v e n o te d a r e v e r y b r ie f a n d i t w i ll b e n e c e s s a r y to e x p a n d o n t h e m b u t n o t i n a w a y w h ic h d e tr a c ts fr o m t h e p r o c e d u r a l r e q u ir e m e n t s . Page 22 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : M a y th e w i t n e s s ta k e t h e a ffi r m a ti o n ? CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. REGISTRAR: P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . M R R I E A Z S H A IK : REGISTRAR: R i e a z S h a ik . D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n in m a k i n g th e p r e s c r ib e d a ffir m a t i o n ? MR SHAIK: REGISTRAR: 10 No. D o y o u s o le m n ly a ff ir m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u g i v e s h a ll b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o l e tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h , i f s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y I tr u l y a ff ir m . M R R I E A Z S H A IK : I tr u ly a ffir m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r S h a ik , b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d I ju s t w a n t t o s a y th a t I a p p r e c ia t e t h e f a c t t h a t y o u h a v e m a d e y o u r s e l f a v a i la b le t o c o m e a n d s h a r e w h a t y o u k n o w w i t h th e C o m m i s s i o n , a s y o u p r o b a b ly k n o w fr o m l a s t y e a r I h a v e b e e n c a l li n g f o r f o r m e r D G ’s a n d c u r r e n t D G ’s , f o r m e r D D G ’s a n d s e n i o r o ffic i a ls in v a r i o u s g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a n d i n m u n i c i p a l it ie s s e n i o r o ff ic ia ls t o c o m e f o r w a r d if t h e y k n o w m a t t e r s t h a t f a ll w i t h i n th e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f 20 t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d th e r e h a v e b e e n ti m e s w h e n I h a v e e x p r e s s e d t h e v ie w th a t a lt h o u g h a n u m b e r o f t h e m h a v e c o m e fo r w a r d a n d w e a p p r e c ia t e t h a t I d o f e e l t h a t t h e r e m u s t b e m a n y o u t t h e r e w h o k n o w q u i te a l o t w h o h a v e n ’ t c o m e fo r w a r d . I n d e e d w h e n t h e R e v e r e n d C h i k a n e w a s h e r e g iv i n g e v i d e n c e la s t w e e k w e h a d a d i s c u s s i o n a b o u t t h a t a n d h e g a v e m e h is Page 23 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 p e r s p e c t iv e b u t I w a n t y o u to k n o w th a t w e a p p r e c i a te w h e n s e n i o r o ffic i a ls w h o w e r e – w h o h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f s o m e o f th e th i n g s t h a t r e a l ly a r e i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n c o m e f o r w a r d to h e l p t h e C o m m i s s i o n u n d e r s ta n d w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g , s o I j u s t w a n t y o u to know that we appreciate that you came. MR SHAIK: Th a n k y o u S ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : M r S h a ik y o u h a v e in fr o n t o f y o u a b u n d l e m a r k e d P P 1 , in t h a t b u n d l e a t p a g e s 1 t o 1 5 i s a n a ffi d a v i t , i s t h a t y o u r 10 a ffi d a v i t ? MR SHAIK: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : MR SHAIK: A t p a g e 1 5 w h o s e s i g n a tu r e a p p e a r s th e r e ? I t i s m y s i g n a t o r y. ADV PRETORIUS: A n d a r e y o u s a t is f i e d th a t t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h is a ffi d a v i t a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? MR SHAIK: I a m in d e e d . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A t p a g e 1 fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 1 to 9 y o u t e l l t h e C o m m i s s i o n s o m e o f t h e m a t t e r s r e l a t e d t o y o u r k n o w le d g e a n d experience and your personal background, would you just go through 20 t h o s e a n d t e l l t h e C h a ir o f y o u r o w n b a c k g r o u n d p l e a s e ? MR SHAIK: C h a i r I – i n p a r a g r a p h s 1 t o 9 I o u t li n e m y h i s t o r y i n r e s p e c t t o in t e l li g e n c e m a t te r s , w h ic h e s s e n t ia ll y s t a r t e d a s a r e s u lt o f m y d e t e n ti o n , w h i c h l e d to a i n te ll ig e n c e b r e a k th r o u g h f o r t h e A N C a n d in t h a t c a p a c it y I r e c e iv e d tr a i n i n g i n E a s t G e r m a n y. I then returned ill e g a ll y in t o t h e c o u n tr y t o s e t u p a n in t e l li g e n c e s tr u c tu r e a n d I Page 24 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 w o r k e d d ir e c tl y u n d e r th e s u p e r v is io n a n d c o m m a n d o f f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Zu m a a n d a s a r e s u l t o f th e k n o w le d g e I a c c r u e d i n th e s o - c a ll e d u n d e r g r o u n d d a y s o f i n t e ll ig e n c e I w a s i n c l u d e d i n t o t h e n e g o t ia t io n p r o c e s s , s o I w a s a d e l e g a t e to C O D E S A 1 , C O D E S A 2 , t h e m u l ti- p a r ty t a lk s I w a s n o m in a t e d t o s e r v e o n th e S u b - C o u n c il o f In t e l li g e n c e , I w a s t h e C h a ir o f t h e A m a l g a m a ti o n C o m m i t te e t h a t a m a l g a m a t e d th e v a r i o u s s t a tu t o r y a n d n o n - s ta t u t o r y i n t e ll ig e n c e s e r v ic e s i n th e 1 9 9 1 to 1 9 9 4 period. I w a s v e r y m u c h p a r t to g e th e r w it h m y c o l le a g u e s i n p a s s i n g t h e t h r e e p i e c e s o f l e g is la t io n t h a t g o v e r n s t h e I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s 10 a n d I a m p r o u d t o s a y t h a t I w a s a ls o c o n tr i b u to r to t h e C h a p te r 11 o n t h e C o n s t it u ti o n w h i c h i s a r e m a r k a b l e fi r s t i n t h e w o r l d w h e r e m a t t e r s o f i n t e lli g e n c e w e r e i n t h e c o n s ti t u t i o n o f t h e c o u n t r y. S i n c e t h e n a n d I t h e n le f t th e I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s i n 1 9 9 7 , I jo in e d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Fo r e ig n A ff a ir s , i t w a s t h e n c a l le d D e p a r t m e n t o f F o r e ig n A ff a ir s , I s e r v e d a s C o n s u l G e n e r a l i n H a m b u r g , I r e t u r n e d , I w a s th e n a p p o i n t e d b y Pr e s i d e n t M a n d e l a a s th e A m b a s s a d o r to Algeria. I t h e n r e t u r n e d , s e r v e d a s t h e S p e c i a l A d v is o r to M i n i s te r D l a m i n i- Z u m a . Then I left government again and I returned to g o v e r n m e n t i n 2 0 0 9 i n m y c a p a c i ty a s D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f S o u th A f r i c a n 20 S e c r e t S e r v ic e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : D u r i n g t h e p e r io d f r o m – o r p r io r t o 1 9 9 4 a n d d u r i n g th e p e r io d u p t o 2 0 0 9 d id y o u h a v e o c c a s i o n to w o r k w i t h t h e former President Zuma? MR SHAIK: Ve r y m u c h s o . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d w e w il l d e a l w i t h s o m e f a c ts i n r e l a ti o n t o Page 25 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t h a s g iv e n i n d u e c o u r s e . In p a r a g r a p h 1 0 y o u d e s c r ib e t h e fa c t t h a t y o u w e r e r e a p p o i n t e d i n t o t h e s e c u r i ty e s ta b lis h m e n t , to g e th e r w i t h t w o o th e r p e r s o n s w h o a r e to g iv e e v i d e n c e t o d a y a n d t o m o r r o w, t e l l th e C h a i r a b o u t t h a t p le a s e ? MR SHAIK: Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o m e p o i n t in 2 0 0 9 . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t o n e s e c o n d M r S h a ik , I w o n d e r i f y o u c a n b r i n g t h e m ic ju s t a l i tt l e b i t c l o s e r, j a , t h a t ’s b e t t e r. MR SHAIK: A t s o m e p o i n t i n 2 0 0 9 , I th i n k it w a s i n M a y 2 0 0 9 i f I m a y b e m i s ta k e n , I r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a ll , t h e r e w a s a l o t o f s p e c u l a t i o n 10 b e f o r e t h a t in t h e m e d i a t h a t m y c o l le a g u e s a n d I m a y b e r e tu r n i n g to t h e In t e l li g e n t S e r v ic e s a n d w e t h e n r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a l l fr o m th e M i n is t e r ’s o ffic e , fr o m M i n i s te r C w e l e ’s o ffi c e t o a v a i l o u r s e lv e s f o r a m e e ti n g . W h e n w e a r r iv e d a t th is m e e ti n g . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: M in is t e r C w e le a t t h a t ti m e w a s a lr e a d y M in is t e r o f I n t e lli g e n c e . MR SHAIK: H e w a s a l r e a d y th e M i n is t e r o f I n te ll i g e n c e , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , i t is j u s t a s I s a i d I g e t c o n f u s e d a b o u t I n t e lli g e n c e a n d I n te r n a l S e c u r i ty, s o In t e l l ig e n c e is t h e r ig h t ti tl e ? 20 MR SHAIK: C o r r e c t , I w o u l d tr y a s s i s t t h e C h a ir i n m a k i n g t h a t u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e d i ffe r e n c e b e tw e e n I n t e ll i g e n c e a n d S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , i t is ju s t t h a t I t h i n k a t a c e r t a i n t i m e c e r t a i n terms were used. MR SHAIK: Correct. Page 26 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: MR SHAIK: T h e n a t a n o t h e r t i m e th e y g o t c h a n g e d . Correct. CHAIRPERSON: A n d I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r a t s o m e s ta g e t h e r e w a s s o m e k i n d o f s p li t t in g o f p a r ts o f t h e s a m e , w h a t w a s t h e s a m e b e fo r e . MR SHAIK: A b s o lu t e l y c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t is w h y s o m e ti m e s it is . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] A D V P R E TO R I U S : W e h o p e to d e a l w i t h t h a t s a t is f a c to r i ly i n a moment. CHAIRPERSON: That is why sometimes those of us who are not very 10 f a m ili a r w i t h th o s e o p e r a ti o n s g e t c o n f u s e d . MR SHAIK: Ye s t h a n k y o u . S o i t w il l b e s a f e t o s a y s ir t h a t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e Fi f t h A d m i n is tr a ti o n i n 2 0 0 9 t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M i n is t e r C w e le w a s a p p o i n t e d a s th e M in is t e r o f S t a te S e c u r i t y, a l l o t h e r M i n i s t e r s p r io r t o 2 0 0 9 w e r e M i n i s t e r s o f I n te ll ig e n c e , s o i n 2 0 0 9 w h e n th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t a n n o u n c e d h is c a b i n e t h e a p p o i n te d M i n i s t e r C w e l e a s t h e M i n is t e r o f S t a t e S e c u r i t y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a t is i n t e r e s ti n g , j a . MR SHAIK: S o th e n a t th is m e e ti n g a t M in is t e r C w e l e ’s o ffic e th e three of us Mr Njenje, Ambassador Maqetuka and myself met, we were 20 in a h o l d i n g r o o m , a n d th is is t h e f ir s t ti m e w e h a v e s p o k e n i n a l o n g ti m e a n d w e w e r e a ll o k a y w h y a r e w e h e r e , a n d v e r y s h o r t ly th e n w e w e r e l e d i n t o a p r e s s c o n fe r e n c e i n w h ic h i t w a s a n n o u n c e d th a t A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a i s t h e D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l o f S S A , M r G ib s o n w o u ld b e th e h e a d o f th e d o m e s t ic b r a n c h o f t h e S S A a n d I w a s a p p o i n te d a s t h e h e a d o f t h e f o r e i g n b r a n c h o f th e S S A . Page 27 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, I m u s t h a v e m is s e d s o m e t h i n g , y o u d o n ’ t m e a n t h a t y o u w e r e s it t in g i n th e h o ld in g r o o m a n d th e n l e d t o a p r e s s c o n fe r e n c e a n d t h a t w a s a n n o u n c e d w i t h o u t a n y d is c u s s i o n a s y e t? I must have missed something. MR SHAIK: I t w a s a v e r y s t r a n g e a n d o d d s i tu a ti o n f o r m e m y s e l f t h is is t h e fi r s t t i m e I w a s h e a r i n g th a t I w o u l d b e n o w a p p o i n t e d a s t h e H e a d o f t h e F o r e i g n B r a n c h , b u t o f c o u r s e i n t h e h o ld in g r o o m w e d i d d is c u s s a n d I t h in k t h e M i n is t e r d id m a k e a b r ie f a p p e a r a n c e t o t e l l u s 10 t h a t w e a r e n o w a s s u m i n g th e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f th e m a n a g e m e n t o f t h e I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s , b u t t h a t is t h e w a y I r e c a l l i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s o it w a s j u s t a b r i e f . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] MR SHAIK: A very brief thing, and then we were led to the press c o n fe r e n c e , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : If we may take a step out of your statement or a ffi d a v i t f o r t h e m o m e n t a n d g o to E X H I B I T P P 4 a n d Ta b 5 c o n t a i n s c e r t a i n d i a g r a m s a n d a n e x tr a c t fr o m t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, I ’ m s o r r y M r P r e to r i u s . I t h i n k y o u n e e d t o 20 e x p l a i n s o m e t h i n g w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e p a g i n a t io n , I ju s t r e a lis e d a t l e a s t w i t h r e g a r d t o P 4 th a t i t s e e m s t h a t i t s p a g i n a te d is a k i n d o f a s t a n d a l o n e p a g in a ti o n a n d n o t s e q u e n ti a l f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g , w e n o r m a l ly h a v e p a g i n a t io n th a t g o e s fr o m t h e f ir s t p a g e to t h e l a s t i n th e b u n d l e , b u t i f th is i s d i ffe r e n t I t h i n k i t is n e c e s s a r y t o e x p la in t h a t in t o t h e r e c o r d , b u t a ls o s o t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d . Page 28 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : EXHIBIT PP4 I f I m a y t h e n C h a ir ju s t n o t e f o r th e r e c o r d t h a t which contains certain d o c u m e n ts relevant to the e v i d e n c e to b e g iv e n is p a g i n a t e d fr o m p a g e 1 t o p a g e 4 7 . I d o n o t e t o o th a t t h e i n i t i a ls R S a p p e a r f o r m p a g e 3 9 o n w a r d s , b u t p e r h a p s i t w o u ld b e b e t te r C h a ir i f t h e i n i t ia ls R S w e r e e x c l u d e d fr o m r e f e r e n c e s a n d fr o m t h e fi n a l c o p y to b e c o r r e c te d . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll P P 4 i t s a y s , i t s t a r ts f r o m p a g e 1 to w h a te v e r, b u t t h e r e ’s a p a g e – o h t h a t ’s j u s t a n i n d e x t h a t c o m e s b e f o r e t h a t , s o t h a t ’s s o fr o m p a g e 1 u p t o – w h a t is th e l a s t p a g e ? 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : 4 7 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. I t h i n k d e a l w i t h t h e o t h e r s a s w e l l , p a g e – s o P P 1 h a s i ts o w n p a g i n a ti o n , P P 1 s ta r t s fr o m p a g e 1 t o p a g e 1 5 . A D V P R E TO R I U S : P a g e 1 6 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t 1 6 ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . 1 6 is ju s t t h e s t a m p o f t h e C o m m is s i o n e r o f O a th s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I d o n ’t h a v e 1 6 , a n d I d o n ’t h a v e t h e s t a m p , b u t it ’s n o t – t h e r e ’s n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e a s t a m p o f th e C o m m i s s i o n e r o f O a th s 20 because i t ’s not an a ffi d a v i t so how come you have . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] A D V P R E TO R I U S : N o i t is a n a ffi d a v i t C h a ir a n d i f y o u r fi l e h a s n o t b e e n u p d a te d I a p o l o g is e , th e s t a t e m e n t h a s b e e n r e p l a c e d b y a n a ffi d a v i t . CHAIRPERSON: O h , w e ll t h a t c o m p o u n d s m y p r o b l e m b e c a u s e t h e w i t n e s s d id n ’t d o a n o a t h t h i s m o r n in g , h e d id n ’t ta k e a n o a t h i t w a s a n Page 29 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a ffir m a t i o n s o w h e n I l o o k e d a t t h is a n d s a i d i t is a s ta t e m e n t , n o t a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t w a s – t h a t a c c o r d e d w i th h i m n o t t a k i n g a n o a t h a n d d o i n g a n a ffi r m a ti o n . A D V P R E TO R I U S : W e ll C h a ir t h e f a c t is t h a t t h e s ta t e m e n t o r a ff i d a v i t before you was sworn before a Commissioner of Oaths, I am not sure w h e t h e r i t w a s a ffir m e d a t a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l a ll I’ m s a y in g i s – w e ll n o t a l l , b u t p a r t o f w h a t I a m s a y i n g is c e r ta in ly w h a t I h a v e fo r Mr S h a i k is r e f l e c te d o n p a g e 1 a s h is s t a t e m e n t , s ta t e m e n t o f R ie a z S h a i k a n d a t t h e b e g i n n i n g i t d o e s 10 n o t s a y a s a ff id a v i ts n o r m a ll y d o “ I h e r e b y m a k e o a th a n d s a y ” , i t s ta r t s t h e s to r y “ I w a s a n a n ti- a p a r th e i d s tu d e n t a c ti v is t ” a n d a t t h e e n d o f t h e – t h a t s ta t e m e n t g o e s u p t o p a g e 1 5 a n d t h e r e i s n o C o m m i s s i o n e r o f O a th s c e r t i fi c a t e a s o n e w o u ld h a v e , s o I d o n o t m i n d b e i n g g i v e n w h a t is t o b e u s e d , I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e w e h a v e t h e s a m e t h i n g s , I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e h a s a n a ffi d a v i t o r h e h a s a s t a te m e n t li k e I d o , b u t w e m u s t h a v e a ll t h e s a m e t h i n g . A D V P R E TO R I U S : C a n I e x p l a i n C h a ir ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : 20 A s I e x p l a i n e d t o y o u e a r li e r t h e s t a te m e n ts w e r e t a k e n s o m e ti m e a g o , a s a p r e c a u ti o n I a s k e d t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s to h a v e it s w o r n , w h ic h w a s d o n e . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s th a t y o u h a v e t h e s t a te m e n t i n y o u r fi l e , s o y o u r p r o b l e m d o e s n o t e x i s t y e t , i t is o n ly w h e n th e a ff i d a v i t i s f il e d , s o p e r h a p s w e w i ll j u s t le a v e i t a s th a t . CHAIRPERSON: Well if you are happy that we use a statement I am h a p p y I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e w e h a v e t h e s a m e t h in g . Page 30 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s , t h e y a r e i d e n t ic a l d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : S o f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f t h e e v i d e n c e w h ic h is g iv e n u n d e r a ffi r m a ti o n a n y w a y p e r h a p s w e c a n p r o c e e d o n t h e b a s is o f th e d o c u m e n t i n y o u r fi le . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , s o t h a t t h e tr a n s c r i p t d o e s n o t ta lk a b o u t a n a ffi d a v i t a n d th e n h e r e i t i s a s t a t e m e n t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s I w i ll ta lk a b o u t a s t a te m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, a lr i g h t . 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : H a p p y M r S h a ik ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr S h a i k d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d w h a t ’s g o in g o n ? MR SHAIK: Ye s i f I c a n ju s t a d d a l i tt l e c l a r i f ic a ti o n s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR SHAIK: I t is c o r r e c t w h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e b e c a u s e t h e s t a t e m e n t w a s g iv e n a y e a r a g o , a n d t h e n i n c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h t h e l e g a l t e a m i t w a s a g r e e d t o t u r n i t i n t o a n a ff i d a v i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. MR SHAIK: I m u s t s a y i n t h e a ff id a v i t t h a t I h a d b e fo r e m e t h e r e a r e s o m e c h a n g e s , t h e y a r e e i t h e r I n e a t e n e d i t u p i n te r ms o f in s te a d o f 20 lo n g h is to r y I k e p t i t m o r e p r e c i s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , o k a y. MR SHAIK: A n d th e r e w e r e s o m e ty p o ’s th a t y o u w il l f i n d a n d w h ic h m a y ir r it a t e y o u w h e n y o u s e e i t , h a s b e e n c h a n g e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f b o t h o f y o u h a v e a ffi d a v it s , m a y b e if t h e r e is a s p a r e a ffi d a v it I s h o u l d j u s t h a v e a n a ffi d a v i t t h e n w e a l l h a v e t h e s a m e Page 31 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h i n g . I a s s u m e t h e n u m b e r in g i s t h e s a m e ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th e n u m b e r i n g is th e s a m e a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V P R E TO R I U S : W e l l p e r h a p s y o u c o u ld p u t t h i s i n y o u r fi le p l e a s e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , i t d o e s n o t h a v e t o b e s t a p l e d b e c a u s e i t w il l j u s t g o in h e r e a s is . T h a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d I w i ll n o w r e f e r t o t h e p a r a g r a p h s i n t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t y o u h a v e i n fr o n t o f y o u . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, t h a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th a t is w h a t M r S h a ik h a s a n d t h a t is w h a t I h a v e , a n d I a p o l o g is e f o r th e f a c t t h a t i t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n o n y o u r fi l e . J u s t b y w a y o f in tr o d u c ti o n t o t h e d o c u m e n t s a f t e r Ta b 5 i n E X H I B I T P P 4 M r S h a i k y o u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a ir t h a t y o u w e r e i n v o lv e d i n th e d r a ft i n g o f C h a p te r 11 o f t h e C o n s t i tu t io n . MR SHAIK: T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d y o u w il l o b v i o u s ly u n d e r s t a n d t h a t o n c e t h e d r a f t e r h a s r e l e a s e d t h e w r i t t e n s e c ti o n o r c h a p t e r f o r p r o m u l g a t i o n t h a t is t h e e n d o f t h e s to r y a s fa r a s t h e d r a ft e r s a r e c o n c e r n e d , t h e r e a f te r 20 it is u p t o t h e C o u r ts to a p p ly a n d i n t e r p r e t . MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : N e v e r th e l e s s y o u c a n a s s is t u s b y p o i n t i n g o u t n o t o n ly t h e v a r io u s s tr u c tu r e s to w h ic h th e D C J h a s r e f e r r e d , b u t y o u c a n a ls o h ig h li g h t s o m e p o r ti o n s o f t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a n d e x p l a in th e t h i n k i n g a t l e a s t b e h i n d t h e m , s u b je c t t o t h e f a c t th a t y o u c a n n o t Page 32 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 in t e r p r e t . MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I f y o u g o p l e a s e t o . . . [ in t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s i t w i ll b e n e c e s s a r y f o r m e t o h a v e a c o p y o f t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s , y o u h a v e i n P P 4 . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e r e l e v a n t p o r ti o n s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : C h a p t e r 11 y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, n o t h a t ’s f in e . 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : P a g e 4 2 a n d fo ll o w i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e r e is a n o r g a n o g r a m a t E X H I B I T P P 4 , p a g e 3 9 , d o y o u s e e i t? MR SHAIK: Ye s , y e s I d o . A D V P R E T O R I U S: T h a t i s f o l lo w e d b y a n u n n u m b e r e d A 3 v e r s i o n o f t h a t p a g e w h i c h i s e a s ie r t o r e f e r to . organogram that a p p li e s to the T h a t I u n d e r s ta n d i t is th e I n t e l li g e n t S e r v ic e s under the c o n s ti t u ti o n f o r t h e p e r i o d 1 9 9 4 t o 1 9 9 7 . MR SHAIK: That is correct. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r P r e to r i u s – o h y o u a r e a t 3 9 o f P P 4 A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s 3 9 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I t is fo ll o w e d b y a la r g e r c o p y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : W h i c h is e a s ie r t o – t o r e a d C h a ir s o I – I w o u l d Page 33 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 s u g g e s t th a t y o u g o to t h e p a g e a f te r p a g e 3 9 a n d y o u w il l s e e a n A 3 v e r s i o n o f p a g e 3 9 . C h a i r i t is in t e n d e d t o p u t t h e s e u p o n th e s c r e e n b u t in t h e m e a n w h il e w e c a n d e a l w i t h t h e o r g a n o g r a m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A t p a g e 3 9 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n r e d a l o n g th e b o t to m o f th e d ia g r a m a r e c e r ta i n e n t i ti e s d e a l i n g w i t h i n te ll i g e n c e , w h a t a r e t h e y ? M R S H A I K : Th e s e r e d b l o c k s r e p r e s e n t t h e d i ffe r e n t o r g a n is a ti o n s th a t 10 w e r e c r e a te d b y th e N a ti o n a l S t r a t e g i c I n t e l li g e n c e A c t a n d t h e y a r e t h e N a t io n a l In t e l li g e n c e A g e n c y, t h e N I A w h ic h w a s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r d o m e s ti c i n t e lli g e n c e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : If y o u w o u ld p a u s e t h e r e a m o m e n t . I s t h e Ac t t h e I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s A c t 3 8 o f 1 9 9 4 ? M R S H A IK : Th e A c t t h a t d e fi n e d t h e – t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e v a r io u s in t e l li g e n c e c o m p o n e n t i s t h e N a ti o n a l S t r a te g i c I n t e ll ig e n c e A c t 3 9 o f 1994. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h a t is t h e Ac t r e fe r r e d t o o n t h e r ig h t h a n d s id e o f t h o s e f o u r b l o c k s ? 20 MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Right. T h a t c r e a t e d f o u r e n ti t ie s , w h a t a r e th o s e e n t i ti e s i f y o u c o u ld ju s t g o th r o u g h t h e m a g a i n p le a s e ? MR SHAIK: Th e N a t io n a l I n te ll ig e n c e A g e n c y r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e c o l l e c ti o n o f d o m e s tic in t e l li g e n c e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t . Page 34 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : A n d a ls o h a d th e c o u n t e r i n t e l li g e n c e fu n c t io n . A D V P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. T h e n e x t o n e ? M R S H A I K : T h e n e x t o n e is t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n S e c r e t S e r v ic e a n d th e S o u th A f r i c a n S e c r e t S e r v ic e w a s r e s p o n s i b le f o r t h e c o ll e c t io n o f in t e l li g e n c e o u ts id e t h e b o r d e r s o f S o u t h A f r ic a . F o r e i g n i n t e l li g e n c e s o to s p e a k . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h e n t h e n e x t is C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e ? MR SHAIK: T h e n e x t i s C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d t h a t r e f e r s t o t h e in t e l li g e n c e g a t h e r e d b y t h e p o l ic e i n r e s p e c t o f p r o s e c u t i n g d o m e s ti c 10 c r i m e o r i n te r n a ti o n a l c r i m e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h e f in a l o n e is M il it a r y I n te ll i g e n c e ? M R S H A IK : A n d M il i ta r y I n t e l li g e n c e i s i n te ll ig e n c e r e q u ir e d b y t h e m il i ta r y fo r t h e d e p l o y m e n t o f tr o o p s a n d f o r th e i r s ta t e o f r e a d i n e s s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t . Yo u w il l s e e t h a t a b o v e t h e N a ti o n a l I n t e lli g e n c e A g e n c y w h i c h y o u s a y d e a ls w it h d o m e s ti c i n te ll ig e n c e a n d c o u n t e r i n t e ll i g e n c e a n d t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n S e c r e t S e r v i c e w h ic h d e a l s w i t h fo r e i g n i n t e ll ig e n c e a r e p o r ti n g li n e t o th e N a ti o n a l In t e l li g e n c e C o o r d in a ti n g C o m m i t t e e , w h a t i s t h a t? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll M r – M r Pr e to r i u s b e fo r e w e g e t t h e r e I j u s t w a n t 20 t o m a k e s u r e th a t I u n d e r s t a n d th e d i ff e r e n c e s in f u n c ti o n s o f t h e d i ff e r e n t u n i ts o r a g e n c i e s . N a ti o n a l In t e l li g e n c e A g e n c y y o u s a y t h a t d e a ls w i th w h a t ? MR SHAIK: Th a t d e a ls w i t h th e d o m e s t ic i n t e l li g e n c e . So in other w o r d s in t e l li g e n c e i n s i d e o f th e c o u n tr y t h a t w h e r e th e b u l k o f t h e is s u e s r e l a t e s t o d o m e s t ic is s u e s w h e t h e r t h e y a r e p o l i tic a l u n r e s t , Page 35 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 w h e t h e r i t is t h e r e a s o n s w h y w e h a v e u n r e s t in t h e c o u n t r y, th e c r i m e n e t w o r k s , t h e c a r t e l s e tc e t e r a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: S o i t is – a n d o t h e r s c o u l d b e o n h o w g o v e r n m e n t i s p e r c e iv e d , h o w i t is – t h e d o m e s ti c c o m p o n e n t o f i n t e l li g e n c e is w h a t w e c a ll t h e N I A’s f u n c t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. MR SHAIK: A n d i n c lu d e d t h a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e th e f u n c t i o n o f c o u n t e r in t e l li g e n c e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A IK : S o in o t h e r w o r d s a n y th r e a t d i r e c te d t o w a r d s t h e s t a te , o r g a n s o f s t a te , i n d iv i d u a l s o f t h e s t a t e t h a t w o u l d b e th e f u n c ti o n o f t h e N I A t o b e a b l e t o c o u n t – fi r s tl y i d e n t if y t h e th r e a t a n d t h e n c o u n te r t h a t th r e a t a n d b r o a d ly w e r e f e r t o t h a t a s c o u n t e r in t e l li g e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o c o u n t e r in t e l li g e n c e w o u l d b e w h a t t h e N I A d o e s t o d e a l w it h f o r e x a m p l e p e o p le p l a n n i n g t o o v e r t h r o w t h e g o v e r n m e n t ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t k i n d o f th in g . M R S H A I K : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: But unless – unless… M R S H A I K : A n d w e w o u l d k n o w i t a ls o a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : S e r i o u s . T h e y w o u l d b e le s s s e r i o u s th in g s th a t t h e y w o u ld d e a l w i th a s w e ll ? M R S H A IK : C o r r e c t . T h e y a r e th e s e r i o u s th i n g s a n d th e l e s s s e r i o u s things. Page 36 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J a . J a . B u t I m e a n p a r t o f w h a t t h e y w o u l d lo o k – part of what they would be concerned with be crime and how would t h e y – h o w w o u ld t h e ir fu n c t io n d i ff e r fr o m C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . T h e – y e s t h e r e is a m e a s u r e o f o v e r l a p . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR S H A IK : To th e e x t e n t t h a t t h e c r i m in a l n e t w o r k b e c o m e s s o p h is t ic a t e d a n d a g o o d e x a m p l e w il l b e t h e d r u g c a r t e ls . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : Th e m o v e m e n t o f d r u g s a n d a v e r y g o o d e x a m p le is a n d I 10 hope I get it right. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: The drug Nyaope. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : W h ic h i s d e c i m a ti n g o u r to w n s h i p s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d o u r c i ti e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : E tc e te r a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R S H A I K : A n d N y a o p e is a h e r o in e b a s e d d r u g . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d h e r o i n e is a p r o d u c t o f a p la n t g r o w n i n A f g h a n i s t a n , P a k is t a n e tc e te r a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d th a t i s t h a t p a r t o f t h e w o r ld . Page 37 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : W e a r e h e r e in – i n A f r i c a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : T h e – t h a t d r u g h a s t o c o m e f r o m A f g h a n i s ta n , P a k is ta n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : T h r o u g h h e r e a n d m o s t t i m e s it e n t e r s t h e E a s t C o a s t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm MR SHAIK: Of the Indian Ocean. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MR SHAIK: A n d t h e n t h r o u g h v a r io u s c o u n tr ie s s m u g g l e d i n – in t o S o u th A fr ic a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : S o y o u c a n s e e ju s t in t h a t e x a m p l e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : H o w f o r e ig n in t e l li g e n c e w o u l d b e u s e d to m o n i to r th e fl o w of these drugs. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d w h e n it e n t e r s t h e c o u n tr y h e r e i t e n te r s a d is tr ib u ti o n network. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A IK : S o y o u c a n s e e n o w h o w t h e – th e d o m e s t ic i n te ll i g e n c e w i ll g e t in v o lv e d in t h e d is tr i b u ti o n n e tw o r k . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : To u n d e r s t a n d th e d is tr i b u t io n n e t w o r k . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 38 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 MR SHAIK: A n d t h e n e v e n t u a l ly w h e n t h e d r u g s a r e s o ld a n d t h e m o n i e s f lo w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : B e c a u s e m o n ie s w il l a ls o f lo w i n th e r e v e r s e p r o c e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: Yo u w i ll g e t t h e F in a n c ia l In t e l li g e n c e C e n t r e g e t t in g in v o lv e d . Yo u w i ll g e t t h e N I A g e t ti n g i n v o l v e d i n r e s p e c t o f t h a t. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: And when it is now prosecuted as a crime. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : T h a t i s w h e n C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e g e ts in v o lv e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o t h e – th e S o u t h A fr ic a n S e c r e t S e r v ic e w h i c h I t h i n k y o u s a i d d e a l s w i t h I n te r n a ti o n a l o r Fo r e ig n s i d e o f I n te ll ig e n c e – s o th e y c o u l d b e in v o lv e d i n m o n i to r i n g t h e m o v e m e n t o f N y a o p e fr o m A f g h a n is ta n o r w h e r e v e r a n d fo r e x a m p le g e t t o k n o w th a t i t i s d e s t in e d for our shores. M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n t h e y c o u ld t h e n s h a r e th a t in f o r m a t io n w i t h t h e N I A s o t h a t w h e n i t l a n d s o n o u r s h o r e s th e N I A is r e a d y t o d e a l 20 with it? M R S H A I K : A b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d th e n w h e n t h e N I A d e a ls w i t h i t i t c o u l d e n d u p w i th C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e a n d u l ti m a t e ly w it h S A P S a n d – i n t h e c o u r ts ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir. Page 39 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: That was the – the way it was designed. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d t h e n i f y o u lo o k a t t h e r e d l in e a n d m a y b e I a m ju s t g e t t in g a h e a d o f t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . B u t … MR SHAIK: But if you look at the … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I ju s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d j a . M R S H A IK : 10 T h e r e d s tr u c t u r e s a n d a b o v e t h a t is t h e N a ti o n a l I n t e lli g e n c e C o o r d i n a t in g C o m m i t t e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R S H A IK : A n d t h a t i s a – t h e c o m m i t t e e t h a t w a s d e s ig n e d t o s h a r e t h is k i n d o f i n te ll ig e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e in f o r m a t io n . M R S H A I K : B o t h t a c tic a l i n t e ll ig e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d a t a s tr a te g ic l e v e l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O k a y. O k a y s o – s o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e I t h i n k I u n d e r s t a n d th is o t h e r S e c r e t S e r v ic e f r o m w h a t t h e e x a m p l e s 20 that we have just used. M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e f r o m w h a t y o u s a y i t lo o k s lik e in th e e x a m p l e s t h a t w e h a v e u s e d w o u l d – w o u l d n o t – w o u l d o n l y g e t in v o lv e d a f t e r N I A h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d . I n t e r m s o f t h o s e e x a m p l e s . B u t in t e r m s o f o t h e r c r i m e s i t c o u l d a c t a s a n i n t e ll ig e n c e u n it o r f ir s t Page 40 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 in s t a n c e i f y o u – i f y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t I m e a n ? M R S H A I K : A b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d l e t u s j u s t ta k e a n o t h e r e x a m p le in t h e c a s e o f AT M . CHAIRPERSON: Hm bombings. M R S H A I K : AT M b o m b s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR SHAIK: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R S H A I K : T h e r e th e C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : W o u l d d e p l o y i ts r e s o u r c e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : To g e t to k n o w w h o a r e b e h in d t h a t e tc e t e r a . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d th e y w o u l d t h e n r e q u e s t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : To th e – t h e – t h e C i v i li a n I n t e l li g e n c e C o m m u n i t y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R S H A I K : Te c h n o l o g ic a l S u p p o r t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: W h ic h i s t h e n g iv e n t o – t o C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w h e n th e y a r e l e a d i n g th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. H m . A n d t h e M il i t a r y I n te ll i g e n c e r e a l ly w o u ld r e l a t e t o w h o – w h o w a n t s t o a t t a c k u s o r a s a c o u n tr y o r w h a t ? Page 41 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A IK : Ye s . S o y o u w il l r e c a ll t h a t i n o u r a w f u l h is t o r y o f apartheid. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : W e h a d s tr u c tu r e s c r e a t e d u n d e r M i li t a r y I n te ll ig e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d a g o o d e x a m p l e w o u ld b e th e C C B . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : W h ic h e n g a g e d i n e x t r a ju d i c i a l k il li n g s i n th e c o u n tr y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R S H A I K : S o o n e o f th e … A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th a t w a s a c iv i l c o o p e r a ti o n b u r e a u ? M R S H A I K : T h a t i s t h e c i v i l c o o p e r a t io n b u r e a u . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: S o o n e o f t h e k e y p r in c i p l e s th a t e m e r g e d d u r i n g t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s was th a t t h e m i li t a r y w il l n o t b e able to conduct in t e l li g e n c e in s i d e o f t h e c o u n tr y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. MR SHAIK: A n d t h i s w a s a – a – a n d it s ti ll r e m a i n s a fa s c i n a ti n g d is c u s s io n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : B e c a u s e a n y i n s ti t u ti o n t h a t w h e n i t d e p lo y s h a s to r e ly o n it s o w n i n t e ll ig e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: I t d o e s n o t i n v a r ia b ly r e l y o n o t h e r p e o p l e ’s in t e l li g e n c e w h e n i t i s d e p l o y in g . Page 42 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: S o i t is e a s y i n t h e c a s e o f th e m il i ta r y w h e n th e y a r e in v o lv e d in o p e r a t io n s o u t s i d e o f th e c o u n tr y. M il i ta r y In t e l li g e n c e w i ll in f o r m t h e t e r r a i n , th e g a th e r in g , t h e persons that informs the d e p lo y m e n t o f t h e m i li t a r y o u t s i d e t h e c o u n tr y. O f c o u r s e th e d i ffi c u l ty w i ll a r is e a n d – a n d w e w o u l d h a v e s u c h a s i tu a ti o n i n t h e c a ll t o d e p lo y t h e m i li t a r y in s i d e t h e c o u n tr y. T h e n th e q u e s t io n w i ll r e m a i n , w h a t in t e l li g e n c e w il l t h e m i li t a r y r e ly o n w h e n i t d e p l o y s i n s i d e t h e c o u n tr y ? B u t a t t h e ti m e w e d i d n o t e n v is a g e t h a t c o n tr a d ic t io n a n d w e 10 b e li e v e d t h a t t h r o u g h t h e m e c h a n i s m o f N I C O C t h e c o o r d in a ti n g m e c h a n is m t h a t w e w o u l d b e a b l e t o b e s t r e s o lv e t h a t is s u e i f a n d w h e n it a r o s e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I k n o w t h a t I – I j u s t s a id th a t I t a k e i t t h a t M il i ta r y I n t e l li g e n c e i s a b o u t i n t e lli g e n c e r e la t in g t o w h o w a n ts t o a tt a c k u s . M R S H A I K : Ye s t h a t is i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t – w h ic h is r a t h e r fr o m o u ts i d e t h e b o r d e r s o f th e c o u n tr y. B u t n o w i f w e w a n t t o k n o w – o r th e P r e s i d e n t w a n ts t o k n o w 20 whether within the country there is a group of people who are planning to go to the headquarters of the SANDF and kidnap the general … MR SHAIK: Shoke. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d o th e r s e n i o r m il i t a r y l e a d e r s a n d g o o n r a d i o a n d te l e v i s i o n a n d s a y, w e h a v e t a k e n o v e r t h e g o v e r n m e n t o f S o u th A fr ic a . If h e w a n ts t o k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e a r e p e o p l e w i th i n t h e c o u n tr y Page 43 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 w h o w o u l d b e e x p e c t e d t o p i c k u p t h a t k in d o f in t e l li g e n c e o r is i t a ll o f them? O r w o u l d t h e M i li t a r y I n te ll ig e n c e b e e x p e c te d to p i c k th a t u p themselves? M R S H A IK : N o . T h e – in t h e m a i n Si r t h a t w il l b e th e fu n c t io n p e r h a p s o f th e c o u n te r i n te ll ig e n c e o f t h e N I A a n d t o s o m e e x te n t C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e . B u t l e t m e j u s t a s s u r e y o u fi r s t ly t h a t I d o n o t t h i n k t h e r e is a n y o n e w i ll i n g t o a t t a c k S o u th A fr ic a . A n d s e c o n d ly th o s e w h o w a n t t o ta k e o v e r t h e h e a d q u a r t e r s m u s t fir s t k n o w w h e r e t h e h e a d q u a r t e r s is . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: And we get that wrong sometimes. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y, n o t h a t – t h a t i s a lr i g h t. So – so the M il i ta r y In t e l li g e n c e is o u t w a r d lo o k i n g ? MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e – th e N I A is i n w a r d l o o k i n g ? MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: S o u th A f r ic a n S e c r e t S e r v ic e o u t w a r d l o o k i n g a n d C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e i n w a r d lo o k i n g t o o . M R S H A I K : A n d i t m a y h a v e a c o m b i n a t io n i n w a r d a n d o u t w a r d . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : In w a r d a n d o u tw a r d . MR SHAIK: ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m i li t a r y o u t w a r d lo o k in g . M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Thank you very much. b e t t e r n o w. Page 44 of 194 I th in k I u n d e r s ta n d 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : W e w il l d e a l w i t h t h e r e p o r t i n g li n e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d o v e r s i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n a d d it i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : 10 C h a ir. B u t b e f o r e w e d o t h a t t h e s e f o u r e n ti t ie s t h a t y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o s h a r e j o i n t s e r v ic e s a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t in c l u d i n g t e c h n o l o g i c a l s e r v i c e s li k e in t e r c e p ti o n , m o n it o r in g a n d th e lik e ? M R S H A IK : I n th e – i n t h e c a s e o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a n d M ili t a r y I n t e lli g e n c e t h e r e is a c a p a c i ty b y th e C i v il i a n I n t e ll ig e n c e t h a t h a s in t e r c e p t c a p a c i ti e s a n d a s tr u c t u r e w a s c r e a te d f o r r e q u e s t f r o m t h e M il i ta r y In t e l li g e n c e a n d C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e to t h i s s t r u c tu r e to in t e r c e p t o n b e h a lf o f C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e a n d M i li t a r y I n te ll ig e n c e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. A n d t h o s e a n d o th e r j o i n t s e r v ic e s s u c h a s tr a i n i n g a n d th e l ik e , i n te r n a l s e c u r i ty in o t h e r w o r d s t h e s e c u r i ty o f t h e 20 o p e r a ti v e s a n d t h e e n ti t ie s a r e to a n e x t e n t a s y o u h a v e e x p l a in e d s h a r e d s e r v ic e s ? MR SHAIK: T h e j o in t s e r v i c e s p e r ta in e d t o t h e N a t io n a l I n te ll i g e n c e A g e n c y a n d t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n S e c r e t S e r v ic e . T h e – th e C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e w a s a d iv i s i o n o f t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e a n d t h e y h a v e th e ir o w n o r g a n is a ti o n a l c u l tu r e , t r a i n i n g e tc e t e r a . To t h e e x t e n t Page 45 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h a t s o m e t i m e s t h e r e i s c o o p e r a ti o n y e s b u t th e s e jo i n t s e r v ic e s in t h is d i a g r a m r e p r e s e n ts t h e – t h e j o i n t s e r v ic e s t h a t w e r e p r e v a l e n t in 1 9 9 4 b e t w e e n th e N I A a n d t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n S e c r e t S e r v ic e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A lr i g h t . A n d y o u h a v e e x p l a i n e d th a t C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e a n d M i li t a r y I n te ll ig e n c e m a y r e q u e s t c e r t a i n … MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Te c h n o lo g ic a l a s s is ta n c e fr o m N a t io n a l I n t e ll ig e n c e A g e n c y a n d th e S o u th A fr ic a n S e c r e t S e r v i c e ? MR SHAIK: That is correct. 10 A D V P R E T O R I U S : A lr i g h t . Yo u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a ir t h a t t h e s e e n t i ti e s r e p o r t f o r c o o r d in a ti o n a n d c o o p e r a t io n t o t h e N a ti o n a l I n te ll i g e n c e C o o r d in a ti n g C o m m i t t e e . MR SHAIK: That is correct. ADV PRETORIUS: A n d i t s e e m s fr o m t h e d i a g r a m t h a t y o u e x p la i n e d t h a t t h a t c o m m i t te e r e p o r ts t o a n i n te ll i g e n c e c o o r d in a t o r w h o i n tu r n r e p o r t s t o th e P r e s i d e n t ? MR SHAIK: Ye s . I m u s t – I m u s t p o i n t o u t S ir t h a t t h is w a s a l l a p p lic a b l e i n th e 1 9 9 4 / 1 9 9 7 p e r i o d . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . 20 MR SHAIK: Things have changed since then. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s s u r e . M R S H A I K : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. Th e C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e r e s o r ts u n d e r th e S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e S e r v i c e r e p o r ti n g in t u r n t o th e M i n is t e r o f P o li c e ? MR SHAIK: Correct. Page 46 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d M i li t a r y In t e l li g e n c e r e s o r t s u n d e r th e S o u t h A fr ic a n N a ti o n a l D e fe n c e F o r c e u n d e r t h e d ir e c ti o n o f t h e M in is t e r o f Defence? MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Alright. F o r o v e r s ig h t p u r p o s e s in o t h e r w o r d s o v e r s ig h t o v e r t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ac t iv i t ie s … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r P r e to r i u s . A m I m is s i n g s o m e t h i n g o n 10 t h is o r g a n o g r a m b e c a u s e I d o n o t s e e m to s e e t h e M in is t e r o f I n t e lli g e n c e ? I s e e M i n i s te r o f J u s ti c e , M i n is t e r o f P o li c e , M i n i s t e r o f D e f e n c e , I n te ll i g e n c e C o o r d i n a to r r e p o r ti n g d ir e c tl y t o th e Pr e s i d e n t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Have I – MR SHAIK: No it is correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m n o t m i s s in g a n y t h i n g ? MR SHAIK: No you are not. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Mr S h a i k w il l e x p la i n t h a t. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll e x p l a in o k a y, a lr ig h t ? W e l l t h a t – th a t c a m e fr o m t h e f a c t th a t I th o u g h t th e M i n i s t e r w o u l d r e p o r t t o th e P r e s i d e n t b u t t h e n th e r e i s a c o o r d i n a t o r. O k a y, a lr i g h t, t h a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : C h a i r I s e e i t is e le v e n t w e n ty I a m n o t s u r e w h e n y o u w a n t t o ta k e t h e s h o r t a d jo u r n m e n t? CHAIRPERSON: We can take the short adjournment now or we can Page 47 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t a k e i t h a l f p a s t t e n - h a l f p a s t e le v e n . W e d i d s t a r t a t h a lf p a s t e l e v e n . In terms of what you want to cover does it matter? A D V P R E TO R I U S : W e ll i t w il l t a k e s o m e t i m e t o g o t h r o u g h t h e s e b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e t w o m o r e d ia g r a m s t o g o t h r o u g h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o i t is … A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th is i s t h e s i t u a t i o n t o 1 9 9 7 . I t c h a n g e d in 1 9 9 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d c h a n g e d o n c e a g a i n i n 2 0 0 9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : I t is v e r y c o n fu s i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : S o i t is q u i t e i m p o r t a n t to . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m a y b e i t i s b e t te r t h a t w e a d j o u r n – ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d th e n c o n ti n u e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: After that. O k a y a lr i g h t . W e w il l ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w it is t w e n t y p a s t e l e v e n w e w il l r e s u m e a t t w e n t y fiv e t o t w e lv e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s p r o c e e d . A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r S h a ik w e w il l s e e i n t h e Page 48 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 d i a g r a m s t o fo ll o w th a t in d e e d t h e r e is a M in is t e r r e s p o n s i b l e f o r I n t e lli g e n c e - tw o d i ffe r e n t d e s ig n a ti o n s o v e r ti m e , b u t w o u l d y o u e x p l a i n to th e C h a ir p le a s e w h y o n t h is o r g a n o g r a m - 1 9 9 4 to 1 9 9 7 t h e r e i s n o M in is t e r th a t a p p e a r s t o b e d i r e c t ly r e l a te d to I n te ll ig e n c e . M R S H A I K : C h a ir, t h e - th e is s u e a r o s e d u r i n g t h e n e g o t i a t i o n p r o c e s s h o w b e s t s h o u ld t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s b e m a n a g e d a c o n tr o l l e d a n d during the n e g o ti a ti o n process that led to the sub council of I n t e lli g e n c e . A s e t o f p r in c i p l e s w e r e a g r e e d u p o n a n d th e s e p r i n c ip le s t h e n w e r e r e fl e c t e d in t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a n d i n th e L e g is l a ti o n . I t w a s n e v e r e n v is a g e d th a t w e w o u l d h a v e a f u lly - f l e d g e d 10 M i n is t e r a n d i f I d r a w y o u r a tt e n ti o n t o t h e v a r i o u s s e c t i o n s in t h e C o n s t i tu t io n . I n - i n r e s p e c t o f d e f e n c e … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V P R E TO R I U S : W e w il l g e t t h e r e . M R S H A I K : O h . W e w i ll g e t t h e r e . O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . MR SHAIK: d e d ic a t e d S o t h e r e w a s n e v e r e n v is a g e d t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e a M in is t e r of I n t e ll ig e n c e and in 1994 under the then P r e s i d e n t M a n d e la t h e M in is t e r o f J u s ti c e a s s u m e d t h e a d m i n is tr a ti v e 20 r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r t h e I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s n o t t h e d ir e c t io n a n d th e c o n tr o l i n t e r m s o f t h e s u b s t a n c e o f t h e ir w o r k , b u t i n r e s p e c t o f th e a d m i n is tr a t iv e m a t te r s . The budget matters. The appointment m a t te r s . Th e r e g u la t io n m a t t e r s , b u t n o t th e c o n tr o l o f t h e I n te ll ig e n c e p r o c e s s i ts e lf . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll Mr P r e t o r iu s I t h in k i t is - i t is c o n v e n ie n t t h a t Page 49 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d I - I s e e t h e s tr u c tu r e in th e In t e r i m C o n s ti t u ti o n t o t h e e x t e n t th a t w h a t y o u s a y is h o w i t w a s r e fl e c t e d i n t h e C o n s t i tu t io n . O b v io u s ly t h e a d m i n is tr a ti v e p o w e r o f t h e M in is t e r o f J u s ti c e m a y b e might not be … A D V P R E TO R I U S : H m . CHAIRPERSON: I n t h e C o n s t i tu t io n , b u t I w o u l d l ik e t o s e e t h a t a n d t h e n s e e h o w e v e n t h e f in a l C o n s ti t u t i o n is s tr u c t u r e d b e f o r e w e proceed, because then I th i n k I w ill understand some of the e x p l a n a t io n s t h a t y o u g iv e b e t te r. 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s C h a ir. W e h a d i n t e n d e d t o g o t h r o u g h C h a p te r 11 in s o m e d e ta il . S o i f w e m a y d o t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d s o m e o f th e c o n c e r n s o r q u e s ti o n s y o u h a v e r a i s e d w i ll b e a n s w e r e d i n th a t p r o c e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e n w e c a n g o b a c k t o t h e d ia g r a m s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . Th a t i s f i n e . L e t u s - le t u s d o t h a t . E v e n if w e j u s t lo o k a t s i m p ly t h e s tr u c t u r e t o s a y l o o k a t t h is . H e r e a r e t h e m a in f e a t u r e s . T h is is n o t t h e r e . T h is is t h e r e . T h i s is w h a t th is m i g h t 20 mean … A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n la t e r o n w e c a n g o b a c k i f n e c e s s a r y. Do w e a l s o h a v e i n h e r e r e l e v a n t p a r ts o f t h e I n te r i m C o n s ti t u t i o n o r n o t ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : We do not. W e j u s t d e a l w i t h th e - c h a p t e r 11 o f the … Page 50 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e f in a l ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Fi n a l C o n s ti t u ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t t h e r e w a s n o d i ff e r e n c e . D o y o u k n o w ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e - t h e p r in c i p l e s t o w h ic h th e … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e t h e s a m e ? F in a l C o n s ti t u t i o n a l A D V P R E TO R I U S : W i t n e s s n o w r e fe r s a r e i n th e Fi n a l C o n s t i tu t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. A lr ig h t . S o w h e r e d o I fi n d t h e r e l e v a n t p a r t s o f th e C o n s t i tu t io n … ( i n te r v e n e s ) ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : P a g e 4 2 . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Page 42? A D V P R E TO R I U S : O f P P 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : I w o u l d li k e t o d e a l w i t h t h e g o v e r n i n g p r i n c ip le s b e c a u s e i n 1 9 8 D t h e r e is i m p o r t a n t p r o v is i o n in r e l a t i o n t o t h e s tr u c t u r e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d ju s t fo r t h e r e c o r d w h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g a t n o w i s C h a p te r 11 o f t h e F in a l C o n s ti t u t i o n ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e r e a r e c e r ta i n g o v e r n i n g p r i n c ip l e s t h a t w e r e e s t a b li s h e d i n t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n i n r e la t i o n t o C h a p t e r 11 S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s . W h a t a r e th o s e p r o v is i o n s a n d I w o u l d lik e t o p u t a l l t h o s e o n r e c o r d th r o u g h y o u Mr S h a ik p a r t ic u l a r l y 1 9 8 D ? MR SHAIK: “The f o l lo w in g p r in c i p l e s govern N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty i n T h e R e p u b l ic : A , N a t i o n a l S e c u r i t y m u s t Page 51 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 r e fl e c t o r r e s o lv e o f S o u t h A fr ic a n s a s i n d iv id u a l s a n d a s a n a t io n t o l iv e a s e q u a ls , t o l iv e in p e a c e a n d h a r m o n y, t o b e fr e e f r o m f e a r a n d w a n t to s e e k a b e t te r li f e . B , t h e r e s o lv e to li v e in p e a c e a n d h a r m o n y p r e c l u d e s a n y S o u th A f r ic a n c i t iz e n fr o m p a r t ic ip a ti n g in armed c o n fl ic t n a t i o n a ll y or in t e r n a t io n a l ly e x c e p t a s p r o v i d e d f o r i n t e r m s o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n o r N a ti o n a l L e g is l a ti o n . Th r e e o r C , N a t i o n a l S e c u r i ty m u s t b e p u r s u e d i n c o m p l i a n c e 10 w i t h t h e la w i n c lu d in g i n te r n a ti o n a l l a w a n d D , N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty is s u b j e c t to t h e a u t h o r i ty o f P a r li a m e n t a n d t h e N a ti o n a l Ex e c u ti v e . ” T h e i m p o r t a n t t h i n g i n A w a s a m a j o r s h if t i n t h e p a r a d i g m t h a t w e a d o p te d i n th is C o n s t i tu t io n . c a l l h u m a n s e c u r i ty. E s s e n ti a l ly A r e f e r s t o w h a t w e W h e r e th e N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty o f t h e c o u n tr y is p u r s u e d th r o u g h h u m a n s e c u r i ty. T h e s e c u r i t y o f th e c i tiz e n s fr e e f r o m f e a r, fr e e fr o m w a n t . I t is r e m a r k a b ly d i s ti n c t fr o m S t a te S e c u r i t y w h ic h is t h e p u r v i e w o r t h e p a r a d ig m t h a t g o v e r n e d a p a r th e id . W h e r e p e o p l e w e r e 20 u p r is i n g i n th e c o u n tr y b e c a u s e o f a p a r t h e i d p o li c i e s . T h e i n t e ll ig e n c e p a r a d i g m o f th a t ti m e w a s c o n c e r n e d w i th t h e s e c u r i ty o f t h e S t a t e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : O r a p a r tic u la r G o v e r n m e n t? M R S H A I K : O r a p a r tic u la r G o v e r n m e n t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : O r p a r t ic u l a r o ff ic ia ls w it h i n G o v e r n m e n t ? MR SHAIK: E x a c tl y. E x a c tl y a n d w h e r e a s h e r e i s a fu n d a m e n t a l Page 52 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 c o n s ti t u ti o n a l s h i f t w h e r e t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n p u t s a n o b li g a ti o n t o p u r s u e N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty th r o u g h h u m a n s e c u r i ty o f S o u t h A f r i c a n c it iz e n s . CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e S t a te a s o p p o s e d t o th e r e fe r e n c e to a p a r t ic u l a r G o v e r n m e n t o f t h e d a y ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M ig h t - m i g h t - w o u l d i t b e p u r s u i n g t h e s e c u r i t y o f t h e S t a t e a s o p p o s e d t o t h e s e c u r i ty o f a p a r t ic u l a r G o v e r n m e n t o f t h e d a y. To w h a t e x t e n t w o u l d i t b e d i ff e r e n t f r o m h u m a n s e c u r i t y i n s o fa r i f it is d o n e p r o p e r ly ? 10 M R S H A I K : Ye s . T h a t is a v e r y i n t e r e s ti n g d is ti n c t io n , s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: Th e - t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f h u m a n s e c u r i t y is th a t w e w o u ld a d d r e s s t h e c o n c e r n s a n d t h e f e a r s a n d th e w a n ts o f - o f y o u r c i tiz e n s . L e t - l e t m e g i v e y o u a n e x a m p l e . W e h a v e i n c r e d i b l e p u b l ic s e r v ic e d e l iv e r y p r o t e s t s a n d p u b lic s e r v ic e d e l iv e r y p r o t e s t is a d ir e c t r e s u l t o f t h e l a c k o f p o o r s e r v ic e s . T h e s o lu t io n t o t h a t is n o t t o l o o k a t th o s e w h o a r e a g i ta t in g f o r t h e p r o te s t . Th e s o l u ti o n t o t h a t i s t o a d d r e s s t h e is s u e s o f th e p o o r p u b l ic s e r v i c e d e li v e r y a n d th a t is a c l a s s ic d is ti n c t io n b e tw e e n 20 h u m a n s e c u r i ty a n d w h a t w e w i ll c a l l S t a te S e c u r i ty w h e r e y o u a r e p r o t e c t in g . O f c o u r s e t h e p o l ic e w o u l d h a v e t o p r o t e c t t h e in s t i tu t io n s . F o r e x a m p le w h e n o u r t r a i n s g e t b u r n t . T h e r e is a f a ir a m o u n t i n t e l li g e n c e th a t is r e q u ir e d t o p r e v e n t t h a t , b u t u l ti m a t e ly t h e t h e s o l u ti o n t o t h a t p r o b l e m r e s ts i n i n s u r in g th a t t h e r e is e ff ic ie n t tr a i n e d s e r v ic e s a n d e ffi c i e n t a n d a b l e a n d c a p a b le a n d a ff o r d a b l e Page 53 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 tr a i n e d s e r v ic e s . S o i f y o u p u t t o o m u c h e m p h a s i s o n t h e p r o t e c t io n o f t h e S t a te ’s a s s e ts o r t h e G o v e r n m e n t’s a s s e t s y o u a r e f o r g e t t in g t h e m o s t f u n d a m e n t a l t h i n g . W h a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y t h is is h a p p e n in g ? CHAIRPERSON: I - I k in d o f q u a l i fy m y q u e s t i o n b y s a y i n g if t h o s e w h o a r e s u p p o s e d - w h o a r e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r S t a t e S e c u r i ty d o t h e i r j o b p r o p e r ly. W h a t I h a d in m i n d is t h e r e w o u l d b e n o S t a t e w i th o u t people? MR SHAIK: Correct. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e S t a t e m u s t l o o k a ft e r it s p e o p l e ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: speak of S t a te And therefore whether one cannot say even if you S e c u r i ty if the u n d e r s t a n d in g is the correct u n d e r s t a n d in g w o u l d it n o t le a d t o th o s e p e o p le l o o k i n g a f t e r t h e c i tiz e n s p r o p e r ly a s w e ll ? M R S H A I K : A b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . 20 MR SHAIK: It goes to how you understand … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : T h e f u n c t i o n o f s e c u r i ty … . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR SHAIK: And hear what - what the founders of the Constitution felt t h a t i t w a s i m p o r t a n t t o p u t t h e c o r r e c t p e r s p e c ti v e . Page 54 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: On how National … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : S e c u r i ty s h o u l d b e v ie w e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d - a n d I g u e s s - I g u e s s t h a t i t m a y h a v e b e e n n e c e s s a r y to p u t i t t h a t w a y. Ev e n i f i t w a s a n o p t io n to p u t i t a s S t a t e S e c u r i ty o n t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t a f te r 1 9 9 4 S t a te S e c u r i ty w o u l d b e s e e n a s in c l u d i n g t h e s e c u r i ty o f t h e p e o p l e . M R S H A I K : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y h a v e b e e n n e c e s s a r y t o p u t i t th a t w a y i n o r d e r t o e m p h a s i s e w h a t w a s n o t e m p h a s is e d b e f o r e . MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : 1 9 8 B M r S h a i k d e a l s w it h t h e is s u e o f a r m e d c o n fli c t b o th w i t h i n t h e b o r d e r s a n d i n t e r n a ti o n a ll y. M R S H A I K : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e p r in c i p l e in r e la t io n to w h a t o n e m a y t e r m e x tr a 20 o r c o n s ti t u t i o n a l a r m e d fo r c e . W h a t d o e s t h is p r in c i p l e s a y a b o u t t h a t? MR SHAIK: T h e - a n d a g a in th is i s in f l u e n c e d b y h i s t o r ic a l c o n t e x t . M u c h o f t h e - th e p a r a d i g m t o k e e p a p a r th e i d a li v e m e a n t d e s ta b i li s i n g c o u n tr i e s o u t s i d e o f S o u t h A fr ic a w h e r e i t w a s e n v i s a g e d t h a t l i b e r a ti o n f o r c e s h a d m i l it a r y b a s is a n d a c la s s i c a l e x a m p le y o u w il l k n o w t h a t i n M o z a m b i q u e y o u h a d tr e m e n d o u s a m o u n t o f fu n d i n g g o i n g f r o m t h e Page 55 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h e n S o u t h A f r i c a n D e f e n c e F o r c e t o fo r c e s a n d I j u s t d o n o t w a n t t o name them. P e r h a p s I c o u ld . in s u r g e n c y o u t fi t in S a y w e n t t o R e n a m o w h ic h w a s a c o u n te r M o z a m b iq u e that was e n g a g in g in the d e s ta b i li s a t io n o f t h e n a ti o n a l p a r t y. T h e Fr e l i m o P a r ty t h a t t o o k p a r t y in 1 9 9 7 i n M o z a m b iq u e o r 1 9 9 4 - 1 9 7 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 9 7 4 . Ye s . M R S H A I K : 1 9 7 4 . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 MR SHAIK: S o w e t h e n h a d a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e S o u th A f r i c a n s w e r e e n g a g e d i n a r m e d c o n fl ic t o u ts id e o f S o u th A f r ic a a n d th e y w e r e c o n s i d e r e d to b e m e r c e n a r i e s a n d w h a t w e w a n t e d i n o u r C o n s ti t u ti o n is t o a v o i d S o u t h A f r ic a n s g e t ti n g i n v o l v e d i n in t e r n a t i o n a l c o n fl ic t w h e r e th e y a r e s e l li n g t h e ir s e r v ic e s a s m e r c e n a r i e s . S o a s a r e s u l t o f t h a t a - a l a w w a s p a s s e d th a t p r o h ib i te d t h a t i n th e m a in a n d t h e r e w e r e c e r t a in c o n d i ti o n s th a t h a d - y o u h a d t o a p p ly b e f o r e y o u e n g a g e i n t h a t k in d o f a c t iv i ty. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d w h a t d o e s t h e s e c t io n s a y fo r p r e s i d e n t p u r p o s e s - fo r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s i n r e l a ti o n to t h e e m p l o y m e n t o f a r m e d 20 c o n fli c t w i th in S o u t h A f r ic a . M R S H A I K : A r m e d c o n f lic t in S o u th A fr ic a ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . MR SHAIK: The … A D V P R E TO R I U S : F o r e x a m p l e . T h e a r m in g o f c e r t a in g r o u p s i n o r d e r t o a t ta i n c e r t a in o b j e c ts w i t h i n S o u th A fr ic a . Page 56 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : I t i s a b s o lu t e l y f o r b i d d e n a n d ill e g a l … A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . MR SHAIK: And should be prosecuted. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th e n C a n d D in p a r ti c u la r p e r h a p s y o u c o u l d e x p l a i n 1 9 8 D i n r e la t io n to t h e o v e r s ig h t r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s in r e l a t io n t o t h e o p e r a ti o n s a n d p e r h a p s t o e x p e n d i t u r e in r e l a t io n to s e c u r i ty e n t i ti e s . M R S H A I K : A g a in - a g a i n s ir t h a t t h e In t e l li g e n c e a n d s e c u r i ty i n - i n t h e a p a r th e id e r a h a d c e r t a i n f e a t u r e s w h ic h w a s u n a c c e p t a b le fo r u s 10 a s w e e n t e r e d th e - a s w e w a n t e d to c o n s tr u c t a n e w p a r a d i g m . For e x a m p l e I n te ll ig e n c e o r s e c u r i ty c o u l d n o t b e a l a w o n t o i t s e l f a n d t h e N u r e m b u r g d o c tr i n e o f I j u s t f o l l o w e d a n o r d e r o r I ju s t f o l lo w e d a command. W e w a n te d to m a k e s u r e t h a t th a t n o n e o f t h a t a p p li e s i n o u r d e m o c r a c y. S o w e th e n s a i d t h a t N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty m u s t b e s u b j e c t to t h e a u t h o r i t y o f P a r l i a m e n t . S o P a r li a m e n t s h o u l d b e f u ll y i n v o l v e d i n t h e a ff a ir s o f I n te ll i g e n c e . I n t h e a ffa ir s o f s e c u r i ty. S o t h a t P a r l ia m e n t is k e p t a b r e a s t o f w h a t is h a p p e n i n g i n c lu d in g th e b u d g e t . I n c l u d i n g m o n e y a l lo c a t io n s . 20 I n c lu d in g o p e r a ti o n s a n d w e c a m e u p w i th a p a r t ic u l a r f o r m u l a in w h ic h f o r t h a t to h a p p e n a n d y o u w i ll n o t ic e t h a t w e - w e c r e a te d u n d e r t h e N a t i o n a l S t r a t e g ic - t h e I n t e lli g e n c e O v e r s ig h t A c t . W e c r e a t e d f o r th e fir s t t i m e i n S o u t h A fr ic a t w o i m p o r ta n t i n s ti t u ti o n s . T h e fir s t is t h e in s ti t u t i o n o f a J o in t S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e o f I n t e lli g e n c e w h ic h w a s th e n c a ll e d t h e J C - J S C I . Page 57 of 194 I t i s a m u l t ip a r ty 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 c o m m i t t e e t h a t h a s f u l l a c c e s s t o a l l t h a t I n te ll ig e n c e d o e s a n d h a s fu ll a c c e s s to t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e I n t e l li g e n c e C o m m u n i ty, t h e b u d g e t e tc e t e r a a n d s o th r o u g h a J o in t S t a n d in g C o m m i t t e e a n d P a r l ia m e n t a r y I n t e lli g e n c e a n d w e f o u n d c r e a t iv e m e c h a n is m s t o g e t a r o u n d s o m e o f t h e - th e o b li g a t i o n s o f d e m o c r a c y a n d b a la n c in g tr a n s p a r e n c y a n d a c c o u n t a b i li ty. I th i n k th o s e m e m b e r s a r e v e t t e d - i n P a r li a m e n t a r e v e t te d . They go through a process. T h e y g o t h r o u g h a n i n d u c t io n o n h o w t o d e a l w it h th e s e c r e t i n fo r m a ti o n . S o th a t i s t h e - t h e fir s t. T h e s e c o n d 10 m e c h a n is m was the appointment of the I n s p e c to r - G e n e r a l of I n t e lli g e n c e . N o w w e s a w t h e I n s p e c to r - G e n e r a l o f I n t e l li g e n c e a s a k in d o f I n te ll i g e n c e O m b u d t h a t - w h e r e t h e p u b li c - w h e r e t h e p u b l ic w h o f e e ls a g g r i e v e d b y a n y m is c o n d u c t o f t h e in t e l li g e n c e s e r v ic e w o u l d h a v e a n o ffi c e o r a n i n s tr u m e n t t o b e a b l e t o r a is e m a t te r s a n d w e s o f e l t t h a t th e f o u n d e r s o f th e C o n s ti t u ti o n f e l t i t s u c h a n i m p o r t a n t in s t i tu t io n th a t i t p u t a n o b l i g a t io n th a t i t w a s p u t in t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a n d u n d e r S e c ti o n 2 . 1 0 o f th e C o n s t i tu t io n it r e a d s t h a t: “ 2 ( 1 0 ) ( b ) , C i v i li a n m o n i t o r in g o f th e a c t iv i t ie s o f 20 t h o s e s e r v ic e s b y a n I n s p e c to r - G e n e r a l a p p o i n t e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t a s H e a d o f t h e N a ti o n a l E x e c u t iv e a n d a p p r o v e b y r e s o l u ti o n a d o p t e d b y th e N a t io n a l Assembly w i th a s u p p o r t in g v o te of at least t w o / t h ir d s o f i ts m e m b e r s . ” Now the two/third barrier was a very high barrier to set. Page 58 of 194 It 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 w a s n o t b y s i m p l e m a j o r i ty. I t is n o t b y 6 0 p e r c e n t . B y t w o /t h ir d s , b e c a u s e a g a in t h e f o u n d e r o f t h e In t e l li g e n c e o r t h e f o u n d e r s o f th e C o n s t i tu t io n w a n te d to e n s u r e t h a t i t i s a c c e p t e d b y a l m o s t a l l o f - o f P a r li a m e n t i n t h e c h o ic e o f t h e p e r s o n in t h e I n s p e c to r - G e n e r a l s O ff ic e . S o t h o s e w e r e t h e t w o i n s t it u ti o n s o f o v e r s ig h t a n d t h e A c t w a s t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e s O v e r s i g h t A c t th a t w a s p a s s e d . A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e r e m a y b e fu r t h e r q u e s t io n s w h e n w e r e v e r t t o the diagram … M R S H A I K : Ye s . 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n r e l a ti o n t o d e t a i l o f th e s t r u c t u r e , b u t f o r t h e m o m e n t w o u l d y o u p l e a s e d e a l w i t h S e c t io n 1 - 9 - 9 o f t h e F i n a l C o n s t i tu t io n w h i c h d e a l s w i t h t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t s t r u c t u r in g a n d c o n d u c t o f S e c u r i ty S e r v i c e s . M R S H A I K : S o u n d e r t h e - t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t w e d e fi n e d u n d e r S e c ti o n 1-9-9-(1): “ T h e S e c u r i ty S e r v i c e s o f T h e R e p u b lic c o n s i s t o f a s in g le D e fe n c e F o r c e , a s i n g l e P o lic e S e r v ic e a n d a n y In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s e s t a b li s h e d i n t e r m s o f t h e C o n s t i tu t io n . ” 20 S o n o I n te ll i g e n c e S e r v ic e c o u l d b o r n e i f u n l e s s e s t a b li s h e d b y th e C o n s t i tu t io n a n d th e r e i s a p a r t ic u l a r p o w e r t h a t is g i v e n to t h e P r e s i d e n t to d o s o a n d t h e r e is a c o n d it i o n t h a t li m i t s t h e p o w e r o f t h e P r e s i d e n t i n e s ta b l is h i n g o f s u c h a s e r v ic e . I w o u l d d o - I w o u l d c o m e t o t h a t la t e r. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . Page 59 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e t h a t t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n is e m p h a t ic t h a t in t e r m s o f t h e D e f e n c e F o r c e it is a s i n g l e D e fe n c e F o r c e . I n t e r m s o f t h e P o lic e it is a s in g le P o l ic e S e r v ic e , b u t i t d o e s n o t h a v e th a t e m p h a s i s f o r I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e . Is t h a t - i s t h a t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h w h a t t h e … M R S H A I K : Ye s . I t is … C H A I R P E R S O N : D is c u s s i o n s w e r e ? MR SHAIK: It is in accordance with the discussions … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR SHAIK: A n d i t w a s e n v is a g e d th a t - t h a t In t e l li g e n c e w ill b e a N a t io n a l c a p a b i li ty. S o t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e n o - n o p r o v in c e i s g o i n g t o e s t a b li s h a n o w n I n te ll i g e n c e S e r v ic e a n d th e r e f o r e it w a s i n s is t e d t h a t o n ly b y th e C o n s t i tu t io n a n d o f c o u r s e t h is i s a c le v e r w a y t o w r i te it , b e c a u s e i f y o u l o o k a t t h e - t h e P r e s i d e n t’s p o w e r. O n l y t h e Pr e s i d e n t c a n e s t a b l is h a n In t e l l ig e n c e S e r v ic e a n d o n ly i n k e e p i n g w i t h N a ti o n a l L e g is la t io n , b u t w e w i ll g e t - g e t to t h a t la t e r. J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d th e n fr o m 1 - 9 - 9 - ( 2 ) o n w a r d s . 20 M R S H A I K : S o 1 - 9 - 9 - ( 2 ) o n w a r d s . A g a in i t e s ta b l is h e s : “ A D e fe n c e F o r c e ’s o n ly l a w fu l m il i ta r y fo r c e i n T h e R e p u b l ic . Other than th e S e c u r i ty e s t a b li s h e d i n t e r m s o f t h e C o n s t it u ti o n . S e r v ic e s Ar m e d o r g a n i s a t io n a l s e r v i c e s m a y b e e s t a b l is h e d o n ly i n t e r m s o f N a ti o n a l L e g is l a ti o n . T h e s e c u r it y s e r v i c e s Page 60 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 must be s tr u c t u r e d L e g is l a ti o n . and r e g u la t e d by National Th e S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s m u s t a c t a n d m u s t t e a c h a n d r e q u i r e t h e ir m e m b e r s t o a c t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th th e C o n s ti t u ti o n a n d L a w i n c l u d i n g C u s to m a r y In t e r n a t io n a l Law and In t e r n a t io n a l A g r e e m e n t s b i n d i n g o n t h e R e p u b lic . N o m e m b e r o f t h e S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s m a y o b e y a m a n i fe s tl y il l e g a l o r d e r. … ( I n te r v e n e s ) . ” A D V P R E TO R I U S : 10 A n d I u n d e r s t a n d th a t s u b s e c t io n s 1 - 9 - 9 - ( 5 ) a n d 1 - 9 - 9 - ( 6 ) a r e i n f o r m e d a g a i n b y o u r h is t o r y ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . I n f o r m e d b y o u r h is t o r y a n d w e w a n t e d - w e w a n t e d t o r e m o v e c o m p le t e ly t h e i g n o r a n c e o f t h e l a w. S o n o I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e M e m b e r m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y I d i d n o t k n o w t h e l a w a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e o b li g a ti o n w a s p la c e d o n t h e I n te ll ig e n c e o r t h e S e c u r it y S e r v ic e s w h ic h t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s a r e p a r t o f . To te a c h a n d tr a i n i ts m e m b e r s n o t o n ly o n t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n , b u t a ls o i n t e r m s o f I n t e r n a ti o n a l L a w a n d o t h e r - o t h e r la w. S o i t w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t to e n s u r e th a t o u r n e w In t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s o r t h e n e w S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s w e r e g o in g to a c t in - i n t h e s p ir i t o f th e C o n s t i tu t io n 20 a n d to u p h o ld t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n in it s e n tir e t y. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll w a s t h e r e a c tu a l ly a s li g h t q u a l if ic a ti o n i n - i n t h e r e a s o n f o r i t. N a m e ly n o t - n o t t h a t y o u d i d n o t w a n t a n y m e m b e r o f t h e S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s t o s a y I d id n o t k n o w t h e l a w, b e c a u s e t h a t m i g h t b e fi n e w h e n i t c a n n o t b e s a i d t h a t y o u m u s t h a v e k n o w n th is w a s ill e g a l . Page 61 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o i n o th e r w o r d s o n th e p r o b a b i li ti e s t h a t w h a t y o u w a n t e d t o d o is t o p r e v e n t p e o p l e fr o m c a r r y i n g o u t m a n i f e s tly i ll e g a l o r d e r s , b e c a u s e e v e n w h e n th e y s a w - r e a l is e d t h a t t h is o r d e r i s i ll e g a l . T h e y c o u ld s a y w e l l i f I a m i n s tr u c t e d b y t h e C o m m a n d e r … MR SHAIK: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: I f I a m i n s tr u c te d b y s o m e b o d y o c c u p y i n g t h a t p o s i ti o n … M R S H A I K : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: What can I do? M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e y k n o w i t i s il le g a l , b u t b e c a u s e o f w h e r e t h e o r d e r c o m e s f r o m t h e y m i g h t s a y I h a d n o c h o ic e . M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u w a n te d th e m t o - y o u w a n t e d t o s a y o n c e t h e o r d e r is m a n i f e s tly il le g a l y o u c a n n o t s a y b e c a u s e i t c a m e fr o m s o m e b o d y i n a p a r t ic u l a r p o s i t io n . M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o u l d n o t d o i t … 20 M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But where you in good faith did not think there was a n y th in g i ll e g a l w i th t h e o r d e r t h e n y o u s t a n d in a d i ffe r e n t p la c e a l l t o g e th e r … MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h e r e i t is m a n i f e s tl y l e g a l . Page 62 of 194 That is what you 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 wanted to deal with. MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. M R S H A I K : A n d - a n d y o u a r e a b s o l u t e ly r ig h t , s ir a n d t h a t is w h y i t i s in b o t h c a s e s w h e r e i t is n o t m a n i f e s tl y il l e g a l. T h e n o u r t e a c h i n g s o f o u r m e m b e r s o f t h e la w s h o u l d e q u i p t h e m t o m a k e t h e r i g h t d e c i s i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d w h e r e i t is m a n if e s t ly il le g a l t h e y h a v e a c o n s ti t u t i o n a l o b li g a ti o n n o t t o o b e y t h a t . S o w e fe l t v e r y s tr o n g ly a b o u t i t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : S o y o u a r e a b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: No. Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : you a p p r e c i a te C h a ir i f I m a y j u s t s a y a t t h i s s t a g e t h i s d e t a i l a s o b v i o u s ly is important, because it i n fo r ms th e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l s ta n d a r d a g a in s t w h i c h t h e c o n d u c t w h ic h w il l b e g iv e n in e v i d e n c e o r t e s t i fi e d t o in e v i d e n c e o v e r a p e r io d o f ti m e i n t h e C o m m i s s i o n m u s t b e j u d g e d . S u b s e c t io n 1 - 9 - 9 - ( 7 ) i s a ls o i n s tr u c ti v e . MR SHAIK: It is indeed and I … A D V P R E TO R I U S : C a n y o u e x p l a i n t h a t p l e a s e ? 20 MR SHAIK: It reads: “ N e i t h e r t h e S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s n o r a n y o f th e ir m e m b e r s m a y i n t h e p e r fo r m a n c e o f th e i r f u n c ti o n a , p r e j u d ic e a p o l i tic a l p a r t y ’s in t e r e s t . That is le g i t i m a te i n te r m s o f t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n o r b , f u r t h e r in a p a r tis a n m a n n e r a n y in t e r e s t o f a p o li ti c a l Page 63 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 p a r t y. ” N o w a g a i n th e s e w e r e i m p o r t a n t p r in c i p l e s t h a t i n fo r m e d t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d t h e r e w a s g iv e n o u r p a s t w e w a n te d t o b r in g t h e I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s a n d t h e S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s o u t o f th e r e a l m o f p o li t ic s a n d t h e p o li t ic a l m a c h i n a t i o n s a n d w e t h o u g h t i t w a s s o i m p o r t a n t t h a t i t m u s t b e p u t i n t h e C o n s t i t u ti o n . W h e r e y o u c a n n e i t h e r fu r th e r a n i n t e r e s t i n - i n a n e g a t iv e w a y n o r f u r t h e r i t e v e n i n a p o s it iv e w a y a n d t h i s p la c e d tr e m e n d o u s o b li g a ti o n o n a l l o f th e m e m b e r s o f th e s e r v ic e s i n th e 1 9 9 4 p e r i o d , 10 b e c a u s e w e a l l c a m e f r o m a p o l i tic a l h is t o r y. I f o r o n e c a m e f r o m t h e A N C , b u t it m e a n s t h a t h e n c e fo r t h o n c e I j o i n e d t h e s e r v ic e m y c o n d u c t in r e g a r d t o a n I n t e ll ig e n c e O ff ic e r h a d t o b e i n c r e d i b ly d is ti n c t fr o m m y c o n d u c t a s a m e m b e r o f t h e A N C a n d I c o u ld n o t i n a n y w a y th r o u g h m y I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s w o r k f a v o u r o r p r e j u d ic e t h e A N C o r a n y o t h e r p o li t ic a l p a r t y a n d t h is h a s g iv e n r is e to a - a h u g e d e b a te a t l e a s t i n m y m in d o n t h e v e r y c o n c e p t o f w h a t i s c a l le d p o li ti c a l i n te ll i g e n c e . W h e n i t c o m e s to p o l i ti c a l p a r t i e s a n d w h e t h e r i n - i n t h e d e v e l o p e d w o r ld it is c o n s i d e r e d il le g a l a n d u n e t h i c a l to m o n i t o r p o li t ic a l p a r ti e s a n d w h a t i s g o i n g o n i n p o li t ic a l p a r ti e s . 20 T h a t is t h e s u b j e c t o f p o li t ic s a n d d e m o c r a c y w h ic h I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v i c e s s h o u l d n o t g e t in v o lv e d i n . In c l u d i n g - i n c l u d i n g i f t h e r e a r e m e m b e r s i n - o f a p o li t ic a l p a r t y t h a t w is h e s t h r o u g h i ts o w n r e a s o n i n g w a n ti n g t o - t o r e p l a c e a s i t ti n g P r e s i d e n t o f t h e - t h a t p a r ty a n d a s l o n g a s t h e y d o i t le g a l ly a n d a s lo n g a s t h e y d o i t w i t h i n t h e s tr u c t u r e s o f d e m o c r a c y I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s h a v e n o b a s i s t o m o n it o r e v e n t h a t . Page 64 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: I g u e s s t h a t t h e p r o v is io n s o f S e c ti o n 1 - 9 - 9 - ( 7 ) - ( a ) a n d ( b ) w e ll t h e y t a lk a b o u t a p a r ty, b u t y o u j u s t r e f e r r e d t o a s i t u a t io n w h e r e s o m e p e o p l e i n a p a r ty m i g h t … A D V P R E TO R I U S : M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e w a n ti n g t o u n s i t t h e P r e s i d e n t o f th a t p a r t y a n d a s y o u - y o u s a y a s l o n g a s t h e y d o - d o it l e g a ll y a n d c o n s ti t u ti o n a lly y o u k n o w I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s s h o u ld h a v e n o b u s i n e s s t o b e i n v o lv e d there. 10 MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: S o t h is p r o v id e s a b a s is d o e s i t n o t fo r a n y m e m b e r o f t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s w h o w o u l d e n g a g e i n a n y c o n d u c t to a d v a n c e th e i n t e r e s t o f a n y p a r tic u la r p o l it ic a l p a r ty th a t h e o r s h e w o u ld b e a c t in g in b r e a c h o f th is a n d p o s s ib ly t h e r e l e v a n t l e g is l a t i o n a s w e ll . T h a t - t h a t s h o u l d b e n o n e o f th e i r b u s in e s s a s l o n g a s i t is d o n e w i t h i n t h e p r i n c i p le s o f d e m o c r a c y a n d w i th i n th e c o n fi n e s o f th e la w. MR SHAIK: 20 Th a t i s c o r r e c t s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s a n d i f i t h a p p e n s it ’s j u s t a b r e a c h o f t h e s e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l p r o v is io n s a n d w h a t e v e r m a y b e in le g i s l a ti o n . MR SHAIK: Th a t i s c o r r e c t s ir. CHAIRPERSON: T h is t a l k s a b o u t a p a r ty a n d d o e s n ’t ta lk a b o u t a n in d i v i d u a l , m a y b e w h e n w e g o t o th e l e g is l a ti o n t h e r e m ig h t b e in d i v i d u a ls a s w e ll , I ’ m n o t s u r e . S o i f I a m t h e h e a d o f M i li t a r y Page 65 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 I n t e lli g e n c e o r m a y b e I’ m n o t t h e h e a d o f M il i ta r y I n te ll ig e n c e , i f I a m a p o s s i b le c a n d id a t e fo r h e a d o f M i li t a r y I n te ll ig e n c e a n d I w a n t t o b e a p p o i n t e d a s h e a d o f M il it a r y I n t e ll i g e n c e c a n I s a y t o t h e Pr e s id e n t, I a s s u m e M r P r e s i d e n t w h o a p p o i n ts t h e h e a d o f M i li t a r y In t e lli g e n c e , is that so? MR SHAIK: No. CHAIRPERSON: MR SHAIK: Th e n u s e t h e N I A e x a m p l e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 N o , o k a y m a y b e i t’s a w r o n g … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Oh okay maybe NIA, if I say to the President you k n o w i f I g e t a p p o i n t e d a s h e a d o f N I A I w i ll l o o k a ft e r y o u o r a n y t h i n g lik e t h a t o r I w i ll m a k e s u r e t h a t A , B , C , D d o e s h a p p e n w h ic h w il l b e in y o u r fa v o u r, t h a t’s c l e a r l y w r o n g . MR SHAIK: C le a r ly w r o n g . CHAIRPERSON: MR SHAIK: A n d c le a r ly i n b r e a c h o f s o m e le g i s l a ti o n . I n d e e d i t is . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. M R S H A IK : A n d l e t m e j u s t to u c h o n a v e r y i m p o r t a n t p o in t i n r e s p e c t o f t h a t s ir. T h e – d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e p e r c e iv e in t e l li g e n c e r e m a r k a b ly d i ff e r e n t . S o m e p e o p le s e e i n te ll ig e n c e a s y o u k n o w t h e d a r k a r ts , y o u 20 a r e t h e r e t o k e e p t h e m i n p o w e r b y p r e d i c t in g t h e f u tu r e e tc e t e r a a n d t h a t is a r e a l ly a n ti q u a t e d c o n c e p t o f in t e l li g e n c e a n d t h o s e w h o b e li e v e i n t h a t c o n c e p t o f i n te ll i g e n c e i n v a r i a b l y g e t t h in g s a w fu ll y w r o n g b u t th a t i s a s u b j e c t m a t te r f o r a n o t h e r t i m e . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I ’ m h o p in g t h a t a s w e c o n t i n u e a t s o m e s t a g e w e w il l t a l k m o r e a b o u t t h o s e t h in g s b e c a u s e y o u k n o w i t ’s o f t e n s a i d Page 66 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a b o u t o u r c o u n tr y t h a t i t’s g o t t h e r i g h t c o n s ti t u t i o n , i t ’s g o t t h e r i g h t le g i s l a ti o n , i t ’s g o t t h e r i g h t p o l ic i e s b u t t h i n g s g o h o r r i b ly w r o n g w i t h i m p l e m e n ta t io n a n d o n e o f th e t h i n g s t h a t I h a v e p u b lic a lly s a i d m a n y ti m e s b e fo r e th a t I b e li e v e s h o u ld b e lo o k e d a t b y t h is C o m m is s i o n is t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r, a s a m e m b e r o f p a r l ia m e n t w h o b e l o n g s to a p a r t ic u l a r p o li ti c a l p a r ty w h e n y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o p e r f o r m y o u r d u ti e s t h e r e , i n c lu d i n g d u ti e s th a t m a y r e l a te t o v o te s o f n o c o n fi d e n c e a n d i m p e a c h m e n t a n d s o o n , c a n y o u r p a r ty s a y t o y o u ir r e s p e c ti v e o f w h a t y o u th in k i s r i g h t o r w r o n g , t h i s i s h o w y o u m u s t v o t e a n d w h a t d o y o u 10 d o i f y o u r p a r ty s a y s – l e t ’s s a y y o u r p a r ty s a y s v o t e i n th is w a y b u t y o u b e li e v e t h a t , t h a t ’s n o t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e c o n s t i tu t io n y o u b e l ie v e t h a t h o l d in g t h e e x e c u ti v e a c c o u n t a b l e m e a n s th a t y o u m u s t v o t e d i ff e r e n t ly b u t i t i s y o u r p a r ty t h a t h a s s e n t y o u r n a m e to p a r l i a m e n t w h a t d o y o u d o . I t r a i s e s t h e s a m e q u e s t io n in a c e r t a i n w a y t h a t y o u h a v e t o u c h e d o n t o s a y w h e n y o u a r e i n i n t e ll ig e n c e y o u a r e n o t s u p p o s e d to b e a d v a n c in g t h e i n t e r e s ts o f a n y p o l i ti c a l p a r ty y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e ju s t d o in g y o u r j o b . Yo u , i n a c c o r d a n c e w it h t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n , a n d t h e l a w b u t t h e r e m a y b e e x p e c t a t i o n s . Ta k e y o u r s e l f a s – w i t h y o u r b a c k g r o u n d i n t h e A N C a n d s tr u g g l e th e r e m a y b e 20 e x p e c ta t io n s fr o m c e r t a i n p e o p l e , y o u r c o m r a d e s w h o w e r e i n th e tr e n c h e s w it h y o u w h o t h in k , o k a y n o w t h a t w e h a v e g o t h i m t h e r e s o h e w i ll h a v e t o r e m e m b e r th a t h e c o m e s f r o m u s , h e ’s o n e o f u s h e m u s t r e m e m b e r e v e n m a y b e t h a t w e p u t h i m t h e r e a n d t h e r e fo r e t h e y m ig h t h a v e c e r t a i n e x p e c t a ti o n s w h ic h m ig h t n o t a c c o r d w i th w h a t th e c o n s ti t u ti o n s a y s a n d w h a t t h e l a w s a y s a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t d o t h e s e Page 67 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 s i tu a ti o n s w h ic h g iv e r is e t o th e s e c h a l le n g e s , t o w h a t e x te n t h a v e t h e y h a d a r o le t o p la y in p u t t in g o u r c o u n t r y w h e r e i t i s n o w in r e l a t io n t o le v e ls o f c o r r u p t io n , i n r e l a ti o n to a ll e g a ti o n s o f S t a t e C a p tu r e a n d s o o n . S o i t b e c o m e s i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e m a y b e i n c e r t a in c ir c u m s ta n c e s p e o p l e f e e l t o r n b e t w e e n a c t in g i n a c e r t a i n w a y a n d a c t in g i n a c e r t a i n w a y a n d i t m a y b e th a t s o m e o f t h o s e t h i n g s n e e d to b e l o o k e d a t. S o I ju s t g iv e y o u t h a t c o n t e x t s o t h a t y o u m a y u n d e r s t a n d w h y I’ m s a y i n g i n regard to what you said, we might need later on to deal with it and let m e h a v e t h e b e n e fi t o f y o u r v i e w s o n i t . 10 MR SHAIK: Th a n k y o u I w i ll s ir th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : M r S h a i k s e c ti o n 1 9 9 8 i m p o r t a n t ly d e a ls w i th p r i n c i p l e s o f tr a n s p a r e n c y a n d p a r t ic u l a r ly fo r t h e e v id e n c e t o b e l e d i n d u e c o u r s e b e fo r e th e C o m m i s s i o n , a c c o u n t a b i li ty. W h a t h a s s e c t io n 1 9 9 8 p r o v i d e d , w h a t w a s t h e t h i n k in g b e h i n d i t? MR SHAIK: Th e – d o I n e e d t o r e a d i t i n t o … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V P R E TO R I U S : MR SHAIK: “ To P l e a s e I t h i n k i t ’s i m p o r ta n t . So 1998, give e ff e c t a c c o u n t a b i li ty 20 have to the m u l ti- p a r ty oversight of all principles of p a r l ia m e n t a r y s e c u r i ty tr a n s p a r e n c y and committees must services in a manner d e t e r m i n e d b y N a ti o n a l l e g is l a t i o n o f t h e r u l e s a n d o r d e r s o f p a r l ia m e n t ” . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s i f I m a y j u s t e m p h a s is e t h e m u s t i t ’s n o t o p t io n a l . Page 68 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 MR SHAIK: I t ’s n o t o p ti o n a l y o u a r e a b s o l u te ly c o r r e c t s i r i t is n o t a n o p t io n i t ’s a m u s t a n d a g a in t h e r e a s o n b e i n g t h a t w e w a n t e d , i n o u r y o u n g d e m o c r a c y a t t h e t i m e fo r a ll p a r ti e s t o h a v e a l e v e l o f c o m f o r t t h a t th e w o r k i n g s o f t h e I n te ll i g e n c e S e r v i c e s o r t h e S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s a r e i n k e e p i n g w i th t h e v a lu e s e n s h r i n e d i n t h e c o n s t i tu t io n a n d th a t w e a r e c o n s is t e n t w i th t h e c o d e o f c o n d u c t e x p e c te d o f th e S e c u r i ty S e r v ic e s g i v e n th e h is t o r y o f o u r p a s t . S o th e r e w a s n o a tt e m p t to h i d e t h e S e c u r i ty S e r v i c e s a w a y fr o m p a r l i a m e n t i n fa c t , a lo t w e n t in t o th e t h i n k i n g b y e n s u r i n g th a t p a r l ia m e n t p l a y s a p r o p e r r o l e o f o v e r s i g h t 10 o v e r th e S e c u r it y S e r v ic e s a n d th a t w a s t h e t h in k i n g . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s a n d t h a t w o u l d i n c lu d e o v e r s i g h t o v e r expenditure? MR SHAIK: O v e r s i g h t o v e r e x p e n d i t u r e a s w e ll , c o r r e c t . So to the b e s t o f m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g , i n th e c a s e o f t h e P o l ic e , t h e M i li t a r y a n d th e I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v i c e s t h e s e o v e r s ig h t c o m m i t t e e s d o e x is t a n d t h e s e o v e r s ig h t c o m m i t te e s h a v e a c c e s s t o t h e b u d g e t s a n d a r e r e q u ir e d t o m a k e a n in p u t p r i o r t o b u d g e t a l l o c a t i o n s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : B e fo r e w e g o to s e c ti o n 2 0 9 a n d to s e c t io n 2 1 0 w h ic h d e a l s p e c i f ic a l ly w i th In t e l li g e n c e , y o u w i ll r e c a l l e a r l ie r t h i s 20 m o r n in g t h e is s u e o f a r e s p o n s i b l e C a b i n e t M in is t e r o r a r e s p o n s i b le P r e s i d e n t a r o s e in r e l a ti o n t o t h e D e fe n c e F o r c e P o li c e a n d I n t e ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s a n d i n t h a t r e s p e c t y o u w e r e a b o u t t o r e fe r t o s e c t io n 2 0 11 i n r e l a ti o n t o D e f e n c e a n d 2 0 6 1 in r e l a ti o n to P o lic i n g . MR SHAIK: Ye s , i f w e lo o k a t s e c ti o n 2 0 11 u n d e r t h e ti t le P o l i ti c a l R e s p o n s ib il i ty a m e m b e r o f C a b i n e t m u s t b e r e s p o n s i b le fo r d e f e n c e Page 69 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h a t i s 2 0 1 a n d I ’l l q u i c k ly r e a d o u t 2 0 6 1 a g a in u n d e r p o li c e u n d e r t h e s e c t io n P o l i ti c a l R e s p o n s i b i li ty, 2 0 1 6 s a y s , “ A m e m b e r o f t h e C a b i n e t m u s t b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r p o li c i n g a n d m u s t d e t e r m i n e N a t io n a l P o lic i n g P o lic y a f te r c o n s u l t in g t h e p r o v i n c ia l g o v e r n m e n t s a n d t a k e in t o a c c o u n t th e P o l ic i n g n e e d s a n d p r i o r it i e s o f t h e p r o v i n c e s a s d e t e r m i n e d b y t h e p r o v i n c i a l E x e c u t iv e s ” , S o i n b o t h t h e c a s e o f t h e d e f e n c e a n d th e p o li c e t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n s ti p u l a te s t h a t t h e r e m u s t a m e m b e r o f C a b i n e t r e s p o n s i b l e 10 f o r t h a t. A D V P R E TO R I U S : P e r h a p s i t ’s a p p r o p r i a te t o g o to 2 0 9 1 t o h ig h l i g h t t h e d i ff e r e n c e s . CHAIRPERSON: a n a n s w e r. B e f o r e t h a t a n d m a y b e w h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r in g to i s I h a v e n ’ t l o o k e d a t t h e c o n s t it u ti o n b e fo r e t h e P r e s i d e n t , a ft e r e l e c ti o n s , a n n o u n c e s h is o r h e r C a b i n e t a l l t h e E x e c u tiv e p o w e r is – r e s ts i n h i m o r h e r. MR SHAIK: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n w h e n h e o r s h e h a s a n n o u n c e d t h e C a b in e t – m e m b e r s o f t h e C a b i n e t t h e n e ff e c t iv e l y h e g iv e s p o w e r s to v a r i o u s 20 M i n is t e r s t o d e a l w i th v a r i o u s t h in g s b e c a u s e t h e r e is le g is l a ti o n th a t s a y s w h a t t h e M i n is te r o f th is a n d t h a t w i ll d o b u t w h a t I ’ m n o t s u r e a b o u t is t h e r e f e r e n c e h e r e t o a m e m b e r o f t h e C a b i n e t is s u p p o s e d t o e x c lu d e t h e P r e s i d e n t b e c a u s e , o t h e r w is e n o r m a l ly I w o u l d imagine t h a t th e C a b i n e t – t h e P r e s i d e n t i s p a r t o f t h e C a b i n e t b u t h e is t h e o n e w h o p u ts i t t o g e t h e r b u t I m a y b e m is t a k e n i n t h a t r e g a r d m a y b e th e Page 70 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C a b in e t a r e t h e M in is t e r s a n d h e i s s i m p l y r e f e r r e d t o a s P r e s i d e n t , i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u h a v e a p p l i e d y o u r m in d t o ? I’ m r a i s i n g i t s i m p l y b e c a u s e th e r e f e r e n c e t o a m e m b e r o f th e C a b in e t , i m m e d i a te ly s u g g e s t s t h e y a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a M i n is t e r b u t if th e Pr e s id e n t is a ls o a member of the Cabinet then te c h n i c a lly it might not have the s ig n if ic a n c e th a t I m a y h a v e t h o u g h t i t h a s b e c a u s e if t h e Pr e s id e n t is a m e m b e r o f t h e C a b i n e t t h e n t h e r e ’s a l w a y s a m e m b e r o f t h e C a b i n e t w h o is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r a ll o f th e s e – y o u m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o s a y s o m e t h i n g , I ’ m ju s t a s k i n g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . 10 MR SHAIK: I t ’s a f a s c in a ti n g i n te r p r e t a t i o n I m u s t s a y b u t l e t m e g iv e y o u th e i n t e r p r e t a ti o n I u n d e r s to o d a t t h e ti m e o r t h e r e a s o n i n g n o t t h e in t e r p r e t a ti o n t h e r e a s o n i n g . W e w a n t e d t o a v o id a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h e P r e s i d e n t a s s u m e s t h e r e s p o n s i b il it y a s Mi n is t e r o f P o li c e o r t h e P r e s i d e n t a s s u m e s r e s p o n s i b il it y a s a M in is te r o f D e f e n c e a s is i n t h e c a s e o f c e r t a i n c o u n tr ie s w h e r e t h e P r e s id e n t is a ls o t h e M in is t e r o f Defence. I n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n s i tu a ti o n a n d e s p e c i a l ly th r o u g h th e n e g o ti a ti o n s we s p e c i f ic a l ly wanted to a v o id the P r e s i d e n t ia l a s s u m p t io n o f th e M i li t a r y a n d P o lic e p o w e r a n d t h e r e f o r e w r o te i t i n t h is w a y, t h a t a m e m b e r o f C a b i n e t m u s t b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r D e f e n c e 20 u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t i t i s a m e m b e r o t h e r t h a n t h e P r e s i d e n t . CHAIRPERSON: I g u e s s w h a t i s p o s s ib l e is th a t i n t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n – I t h i n k i n t h e c o n s t it u ti o n t h e r e is a s e c t io n w h ic h s a y s w h o t h e C a b in e t is a n d I s u s p e c t i t in c l u d e s t h e Pr e s i d e n t b u t w h a t t h e d i ff e r e n c e – w h a t m a y b e i m p o r ta n t is t h a t w h e n e v e r t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n in t e n d s t o r e f e r t o t h e P r e s i d e n t m a y b e it u s e s Pr e s id e n t a n d th e r e fo r m a y b e – w h e n e v e r Page 71 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 it s a y s m e m b e r o f C a b i n e t i t r e f e r s t o a M in is te r m a y b e – I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r a ls o D e p u t y Pr e s id e n t b u t D e p u t y M i n is t e r s a r e n o t m e m b e r s o f C a b in e t a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n . So maybe whenever it says m e m b e r o f C a b i n e t it m e a n s a M in is t e r. MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: W h e n it in t e n d s t o r e f e r t o th e Pr e s i d e n t m a y b e i t a l w a y s s a y s P r e s i d e n t , I d o n ’ t k n o w if M r P r e to r i u s h a s f o u n d s o m e t h i n g … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. A D V P R E TO R I U S : 10 C h a ir c h a p t e r f iv e d e a ls w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d N a t io n a l E x e c u t iv e , S e c t io n 8 4 d e a ls w i t h c e r t a i n p o w e r s a n d fu n c t i o n s o f th e P r e s i d e n t i n h is c a p a c it y a s P r e s i d e n t o r h e r c a p a c i ty a s P r e s i d e n t a n d S e c t i o n 8 5 d e a ls w i t h t h e E x e c u t iv e A u t h o r i ty o f th e R e p u b l ic w h ic h is a ls o v e s t e d i n t h e Pr e s id e n t b u t e x e r c is e d t o g e th e r w i t h o t h e r m e m b e r s o f C a b i n e t . N o w t h a t is a t a h i g h a n d g e n e r a l le v e l a n d m a y n o t a n s w e r s p e c i fic q u e s ti o n s d i r e c t ly b u t t h o s e a r e t h e t w o s e c t io n s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, n o t h a t ’s f in e . P r o b a b l y th e a n s w e r m a y w e l l b e t h a t w h e n is s u e s i n te n d e d to in c l u d e t h e Pr e s i d e n t i n a p a r t ic u l a r f u n c t i o n t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n r e f e r s to t h e P r e s id e n t a n d w h e n i t i n t e n d s t o 20 – i n t e n d s M i n is t e r i t s a y s m e m b e r o f C a b i n e t r e s p o n s ib le f o r P o l ic e o r f o r H e a l t h a n d t h a t k in d o f th i n g . I t m ig h t n o t b e p a r t ic u l a r ly s i g n i f ic a n t b u t I j u s t n o t e d i t i n t h e c o n t e x t o f M r S h a i k ’s e v id e n c e . ADV PRETORIUS: Ye s w h a t i s in s tr u c tiv e t o is S e c t io n 9 1 w h i c h d e a l s w i t h t h e C a b i n e t a n d a ff o r d s th e Pr e s i d e n t t h e p o w e r t o a p p o i n t a n d a s s ig n p o w e r s a n d f u n c ti o n s to M i n is t e r s b u t i t g iv e s – 9 1 ( 1 ) , 2 a n d 3 Page 72 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 b u t w h a t i s i n s tr u c t iv e a b o u t t h e s e c t io n s t o w h ic h M r S h a ik is n o w r e fe r r i n g is t h a t t h e r e i s a s p e c i fic p r o v is io n i n t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n in r e l a ti o n to P o l ic e a n d in r e l a t i o n t o D e fe n c e w h ic h s t i p u l a t e s t h a t th e r e m u s t b e a M i n i s te r a n d s t ip u la t e s t h e ir p o w e r s a t a c o n s ti t u ti o n a l le v e l r a th e r t h a n a t a l e v e l o f th e d is c r e t io n o f t h e P r e s i d e n t . MR SHAIK: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: A D V P R E TO R I U S : MR SHAIK: 10 O h o k a y s o th e r e ’s s p e c if ic p r o v i s i o n . Ye s a n d I th in k t h a t is t h e p o i n t h e w a s m a k i n g . Th a t i s c o r r e c t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w e ll I j u s t s e e i n S e c t io n 9 1 ( 1 ) i n th e c o n s ti t u ti o n t h a t a c t u a lly t h e P r e s i d e n t is p a r t o f t h e C a b in e t b e c a u s e i t says, “ T h e C a b i n e t c o n s is t s o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a s h e a d o f t h e C a b in e t , d e p u ty P r e s i d e n t a n d M i n i s t e r s ” . S o it s e e m s t h a t C a b i n e t in c l u d e s t h e Pr e s id e n t b u t m a y b e th a t t h e a n s w e r l ie s i n w h a t I s a id e a r l ie r o n t h a t m a y b e w h e n s p e c i f ic p r o v i s i o n s o r fu n c t io n s a r e a l lo c a t e d t o t h e P r e s i d e n t , m a y b e i t r e f e r s t o th e P r e s i d e n t b u t a t l e a s t t h e o n e t h i n g w e k n o w is t h a t C a b i n e t d o e s in c l u d e th e P r e s i d e n t . 20 MR SHAIK: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A D V P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. A n d i m p o r t a n t ly M r S h a ik i n c o n tr a s t t o t h o s e tw o s e c t io n s t o w h ic h y o u ’v e j u s t r e fe r r e d d e a li n g w it h t h e m e m b e r o f C a b in e t b e in g r e s p o n s ib l e f o r D e f e n c e a n d a m e m b e r o f C a b i n e t b e in g r e s p o n s i b l e fo r P o li c i n g t o g e t h e r w it h c e r t a i n o t h e r o b l i g a t io n s , d o y o u Page 73 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 h a v e S e c ti o n 2 0 9 ( 1 ) a n d ( 2 ) w h ic h d i ff e r f u n d a m e n t a ll y i n p r in c i p l e fr o m t h o s e tw o s e c ti o n s i n r e la t io n t o th e p o w e r s o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t a s c o n c e r n s In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s . Perhaps you could just read 209 (1) a n d ( 2 ) a n d th e n e x p la i n p le a s e ? MR SHAIK: So under Section 209 (1), “ A n y I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e o th e r t h a n a n y I n t e lli g e n c e D iv is i o n o f t h e D e fe n c e F o r c e o r P o li c e S e r v i c e m a y b e e s t a b l is h e d o n ly b y t h e P r e s i d e n t a s th e h e a d o f t h e N a t io n a l E x e c u t iv e a n d o n l y in te r ms o f N a t io n a l L e g i s l a ti o n . 10 ( 2 ) T h e Pr e s i d e n t a s t h e h e a d o f th e N a ti o n a l E x e c u t iv e m u s t a p p o in t a w o m a n o r a m a n a s t h e h e a d o f e a c h I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e e s t a b l is h e d in te r ms o f s u b - s e c t io n ( 1 ) a n d m u s t e i t h e r a s s u m e p o li t ic a l r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r t h e c o n tr o l a n d t h e d ir e c ti o n o f a n y o f t h o s e s e r v ic e s o r d e s i g n a t e a m e m b e r o f t h e C a b i n e t t o a s s u m e t h a t r e s p o n s i b i li ty ” , S o th e fir s t p a r t is th a t th e Pr e s id e n t – o n ly t h e P r e s id e n t c a n e s t a b li s h a n In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e a n d o n ly i n t e r m s o f N a t io n a l le g i s l a ti o n . N a t io n a l l e g i s l a ti o n s h o u l d c o m e fir s t b e d e b a t e d b y P a r li a m e n t a n d t h e n th e Pr e s id e n t c a n e s t a b li s h i t i n te r m s o f t h a t 20 N a t io n a l l e g i s l a ti o n . S o t h e r e ’s a l in k , s o th e Pr e s id e n t’s p o w e r t o e s t a b li s h I n te ll i g e n c e S e r v i c e s i s l i m it e d in m y o p i n i o n . Second, the P r e s i d e n t u n li k e t h e c o n s t i tu t io n a l p r o v i s i o n i n g t h a t s a y s in t h e c a s e o f t h e D e f e n c e t h e y m u s t b e a m e m b e r o f C a b in e t i n t h e c a s e o f P o li c e t h e y m u s t b e a m e m b e r o f C a b i n e t a n d t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e , it p l a c e s th e o b li g a ti o n o n t h e P r e s i d e n t t o a s s u m e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y o f t h e Page 74 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s o r d e s i g n a t e a m e m b e r o f t h e C a b i n e t t o a s s u m e t h a t fu n c t io n . N o w … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: S o h e h a s a c h o ic e o r d i s c r e ti o n i n r e l a ti o n t o S e c u r i ty S e c r e t S e r v ic e s o r In t e l li g e n c e . MR SHAIK: Ye s t h e P r e s i d e n t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: MR SHAIK: B u t h e h a s n o c h o ic e o n P o l ic e a n d D e f e n c e . A b s o l u te ly c o r r e c t a n d th e r e ’s a s l ig h t p r e f e r e n c e a n d th e s li g h t p r e f e r e n c e is , h e ’s g o t t o a s s u m e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty r i g h t , s o t h e d e f a u l t is t h a t h e a s s u m e s i t o r h e c a n d e s ig n a te i t t o a m e m b e r o f t h e 10 C a b in e t . N o w I ’ m n o t g o in g t o s e e k a n in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h e w o r d o f t h e C a b in e t b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t i t is a m e m b e r o f t h e C a b i n e t a lr e a d y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja so you have tw o d i a m e tr ic a l ly opposed a p p r o a c h e s , t h e o n e a p p r o a c h i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e P o l ic e a n d th e D e f e n c e is th a t i n e ffe c t th e P r e s i d e n t m u s t n e v e r t a k e – a s s u m e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f e i t h e r o f t h o s e i n r e g a r d t o I n t e ll i g e n c e S e r v i c e s – i f I s a y S e c r e t S e r v ic e s is th a t s ti ll fi n e ? MR SHAIK: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Okay in regard to that there is a preference as you p u t i t f o r t h e Pr e s id e n t to b e th e o n e w h o t a k e s th a t r e s p o n s i b i li ty b u t t h e r e ’s a n a c k n o w l e d g e m e n t th a t h e h a s a lo t o f r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s a n d h e m i g h t p r e fe r t h a t a m e m b e r o f – s o m e b o d y e ls e m u s t b e r e s p o n s ib le , t h e n i n t h a t c a s e h e ’s d ir e c t e d t o d e s i g n a te a m e m b e r o f C a b i n e t t o t a k e t h a t r e s p o n s i b ili t y ? MR SHAIK: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t s ir. Page 75 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: MR SHAIK: O k a y th a n k y o u , y e s M r P r e t o r i u s ? A n d p e r h a p s t h e n w e w il l t h e n c o m e b a c k t o t h e d i a g r a m t o s e e w h y t h e r e w a s a M in is t e r o f J u s t ic e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s w e ’r e a b o u t t o d o s o b u t p e r h a p s fo r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e t e n e s s w e s h o u l d ju s t d e a l b r i e f l y w i th o v e r s i g h t p r o v i d e d f o r in S e c t io n 2 1 0 , y o u ’v e a lr e a d y r e f e r r e d t o S e c ti o n 2 1 0 b u t l e t ’s d e a l with it nevertheless. MR SHAIK: O k a y s o u n d e r t h e p o w e r s a n d f u n c ti o n s a n d m o n i t o r i n g , “ S e c t i o n 2 1 0 N a ti o n a l l e g i s l a ti o n m u s t r e g u la t e th e o b j e c ts , powers 10 and the f u n c ti o n s of the In t e ll i g e n c e Services in c l u d i n g a n y In t e l li g e n c e d iv is i o n o f t h e D e f e n c e F o r c e o r t h e P o l ic e S e r v ic e a n d m u s t p r o v i d e f o r a ) th e c o o r d in a ti o n o f a l l I n te ll i g e n c e S e r v ic e s a n d b ) c iv il i a n m o n i t o r i n g o f th e a c ti v i ti e s o f th o s e s e r v ic e s b y a n i n s p e c t o r a p p o i n te d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t a s t h e h e a d o f th e N a t i o n a l E x e c u tiv e a n d p r o v id e b y r e s o l u ti o n a d o p te d b y t h e N a ti o n a l A s s e m b l y w i th t h e s u p p o r t in g v o te o f a t l e a s t tw o t h ir d s o f i t’s m e m b e r s ” . A D V P R E TO R I U S : MR SHAIK: 20 A n d a p p r o v e d ja c o r r e c t. A D V P R E TO R I U S : exist in the A n d a p p r o v e d b y r e s o l u ti o n . S o w h a te v e r P r e s i d e n t ia l a n d M in is t e r i a l p o w e r s c o n s ti t u ti o n it is quite c le a r th a t there must be p a r l ia m e n t a r y o v e r s ig h t . MR SHAIK: A b s o lu t e l y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h r o u g h s p e c i fi c m e c h a n is m s p r o v i d e d f o r b y p a r l ia m e n t . Page 76 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : Th a t is c o r r e c t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : C o u ld w e g o b a c k t o t h e d ia g r a m s , u n le s s t h e r e ’s a n y f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s y o u w a n t t o r a is e C h a ir ? CHAIRPERSON: T h e p r o v is io n s o f t h e c o n s ti t u t i o n t h a t w e h a v e b e e n lo o k in g a t a r e t h o s e o f th e fi n a l c o n s t i tu t i o n . E a r l ie r o n w e h a d s o m e d is c u s s io n , I w a s a s k i n g a b o u t th e i n t e r i m c o n s ti t u t i o n a n d a s I understood th e p o s i ti o n it was that the p r i n c ip l e s in the c o n s ti t u ti o n w e r e t h e s a m e a s t h o s e in t h e i n t e r i m c o n s t i tu t io n . wondering 10 c o n te m p l a t e w h e th e r th e t h a t i s c o r r e c t n o w, n o w p o s s i b i li t y that a m ember th a t h e r e of Cabinet fi n a l I’ m it does may be r e s p o n s i b l e fo r In t e l li g e n c e o r w h e t h e r w h a t w a s m e a n t w a s , u n d e r t h e in t e r i m c o n s ti t u ti o n i t w a s t h e s a m e p r i n c i p l e s b u t t h e Pr e s id e n t a t t h a t ti m e h a d e l e c t e d n o t to d e s i g n a t e a M i n is t e r f o r In t e l li g e n c e d e s p i t e t h e f a c t th a t c o n s ti t u ti o n a ll y h e c o u ld h a v e d o n e s o b u t w h a t m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d s i n c e t h e n is t h a t t h e s u c c e s s i v e P r e s i d e n ts h a v e e l e c t e d to a l w a y s d e s ig n a te a M i n is t e r f o r I n te ll ig e n c e t h a t is w h y, t h e r e f o r e , b e t w e e n 1 9 9 4 a n d 1 9 9 7 t h e o r g a n o g r a m d i d n ’ t r e fl e c t a n y M i n i s te r r e s p o n s i b l e f o r I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s b u t i f y o u l o o k a t a n y o r g a n o g r a m t h a t m i g h t b e a p p l ic a b l e f r o m a c e r ta in y e a r t il l 20 n o w y o u w il l a l w a y s s e e th a t t h e r e is a M i n is t e r. S o in o t h e r w o r d s , w h a t I’ m l o o k i n g a t is w h e t h e r th e i n te r i m c o n s ti t u t i o n a ls o g a v e t h e P r e s i d e n t t h e s a m e c h o ic e b e c a u s e t h i s o n e d o e s a n d t h e o n ly r e a s o n w h y t h e r e w a s n o M i n is t e r – t h e r e ’s n o M i n is te r i n t h a t o r g a n o g r a m f o r 1 9 9 4 to 1 9 9 7 r e s p o n s i b l e f o r I n t e ll ig e n c e is th a t th e Pr e s id e n t a t th e t i m e h a d e l e c t e d n o t to a s s i g n a M i n i s t e r f o r I n t e lli g e n c e w h e r e a s a f t e r th a t , Page 77 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 v a r io u s P r e s id e n ts a s s i g n e d a M i n i s te r. Am I causing you any c o n fu s i o n ? MR SHAIK: No. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I t d o e s – t h e q u e s t io n is o b v i o u s l y o n e t h a t is r e fl e c t e d i n t h e d i a g r a m s b u t n o t e x p la in e d i n t h e d i a g r a m s a n d I ’ m s u r e Mr S h a ik c a n d e a l w i th i t n o w. M R S H A IK : To th e b e s t o f my r e c o l le c ti o n t h e i n t e r i m c o n s t it u ti o n d i d n o t e x p r e s s a v i e w e i t h e r w h ic h w a y o n I n te ll ig e n c e m a t t e r s I th i n k i t g o v e r n e d a w h o l e r a n g e o f o t h e r is s u e s b u t n o t h i n g tu r n s o n t h a t s i m p ly 10 because Pr e s id e n t Mandela, in a p p o i n ti n g h is C a b in e t in 1994 a p p o i n t e d t h e M i n i s te r o f J u s ti c e to b e t h e p e r s o n r e s p o n s ib l e f o r d e a li n g w i th a d m in is tr a tiv e m a t t e r s o f th i n g s . S o h e w a s t h e M in is t e r o f J u s t ic e a n d r e m e m b e r – a n d t h a t w a s 1 9 9 4 . T h e f in a l c o n s ti t u ti o n a g a in t o t h e b e s t o f my m e m o r y w a s a d o p t e d in 1 9 9 6 . S o i n 1 9 9 6 t h e fi n a l c o n s ti t u t i o n m a d e p r o v i s i o n s f o r h o w t h is m a t t e r s h o u ld b e d e a l t w i t h b u t t h a t c a m e a f t e r b u t i n 1 9 9 4 Pr e s i d e n t M a n d e l a d i d a p p o i n t t h e M i n is t e r o f J u s tic e t h e t h e n – th e l a t e M i n is t e r D u ll a h O m a r a s t h e M i n is t e r o f I n t e lli g e n c e a n d a D e p u ty M i n is te r o f I n te ll i g e n c e . So he a p p o i n t e d a D e p u t y Mi n is te r b u t I ’ m s u r e t h e e v id e n c e l e a d e r i s g o i n g 20 t o l e a d u s t o t h a t m a t t e r o f th e c o o r d i n a t e o f I n te ll i g e n c e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o t h a t’s fi n e , I t h i n k w h a t w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r m e is t o j u s t g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s t io n w h ic h I h a d a s k e d , w h e t h e r t h e in t e r i m c o n s t i tu t io n a n d th e fi n a l c o n s ti t u ti o n w a s t h e s a m e o n th is is s u e a n d I t h i n k y o u a r e s a y i n g to t h e b e s t o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e i t m a y h a v e b e e n th e s a m e . Page 78 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 MR SHAIK: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w e ’l l n e e d t o c h e c k ju s t s o th a t o n e is s u r e a b o u t it . It m a y b e th a t i n t h e e n d i t ’s n e i t h e r h e r e n o r t h e r e b u t I t h i n k i t ’s i m p o r t a n t t o a p p r e c i a te w h a t e v e r d i ffe r e n c e s t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n o v e r t h e y e a r s i n r e l a ti o n t o I n t e l li g e n c e p a r t ic u l a r l y w h e n th e r e m a y b e s u s p i c i o n s a n d a l l e g a ti o n s o f I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s b e i n g m i s u s e d a n d abused. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s in d e e d C h a ir. T h e o n ly o b s e r v a ti o n f o r t h e p r e s e n t is th a t a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e i n t e r i m C o n s t i tu t io n i t d e a l t w i t h 10 t h e s e m a t t e r s in v e r y g e n e r a l t e r m s w h e r e a s th e fi n a l C o n s t i tu t io n is f a r m o r e s p e c i fi c i n r e la t io n t o p o w e r s a n d d u t ie s . CHAIRPERSON: I just ask that you ask your members of the legal t e a m w h o a r e a s s is t in g y o u i f t h e y c a n g e t m e th e r e l e v a n t p o r t io n o f t h e in t e r i m C o n s t it u ti o n d u r in g th e l u n c h b r e a k . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d w e c o u ld p r in t i t a n d p u t i t u p to o . CHAIRPERSON: Ja we could ja. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I s t h a t b e i n g d o n e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C a n w e g o b a c k t h e n t o th e fi r s t 20 o r g a n o g r a m d e a li n g w i t h t h e p e r i o d 1 9 9 4 t o 1 9 9 7 a n d w o u l d y o u j u s t d e a l p l e a s e w i th t h e r e p o r t i n g l i n e s t o th e Pr e s id e n t t h r o u g h th e N a t io n a l I n t e l li g e n c e C o o r d in a ti n g C o m m i t t e e o n th e o n e h a n d a n d th e o v e r s ig h t d u ti e s o f P a r l i a m e n t , t h e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l o f I n te ll i g e n c e a n d t h e I n te ll ig e n c e O v e r s i g h t C o m m i t t e e o n th e l e f t h a n d s id e o f t h a t d i a g r a m p l e a s e ? S o t w o is s u e s , r e p o r ti n g t h r o u g h to t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d Page 79 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 P a r li a m e n ta r y O v e r s i g h t . M R S H A I K : S o i n 1 9 9 4 o n c e th e – th e v a r i o u s p i e c e s o f l e g is la t io n w a s p a s s e d t h e P r e s i d e n t a p p o i n t e d a c o o r d i n a t e o f i n te ll i g e n c e a n d t h a t c o o r d i n a t e o f th e i n te ll i g e n c e w a s a t t h e ti m e s i t ti n g m e m b e r o f P a r li a m e n t J o e N h l a n h l a a n d – s o h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s t h e c o o r d i n a t o r o f i n t e l li g e n c e a n d h e w a s a ls o a s s u m e d t h e fu n c t io n o f t h e D e p u ty M i n is t e r o f I n t e l li g e n c e . A n d C o o r d i n a t e N h l a n h la r e p o r t e d d ir e c tl y t o t h e P r e s i d e n t a s e n v is a g e d b y th e L e g i s l a t io n a n d c o o r d in a t e d t h e w o r k o f t h e I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e s w h i c h is t h e s e c t io n th a t w e h a v e b e e n 10 t h r o u g h i n th e b l o c k . S o h e h a d d ir e c t a c c e s s . H e w a s n o t a m e m b e r o f t h e c a b i n e t b u t t h e c a b in e t c o n s i s t e d o f a C a b i n e t S e c u r i ty C o m m i t t e e i n w h ic h Pr e s id e n t M a n d e la c h a ir e d . N o w h i c h D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t D e K le r k c h a ir e d a n d P r e s i d e n t M a n d e l a w a s i n a t t e n d a n c e t o g e th e r w it h D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t M b e k i . A n d i t w a s a fu n c t io n o f J o e N h l a n h la a n d h is t e a m t o m a k e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o th e c a b in e t o n m a t t e r s o f i n te ll ig e n c e a n d h a v e d ir e c t a c c e s s to th e P r e s i d e n t in r e s p e c t o f o th e r m a t t e r s o f in t e l li g e n c e . T h a t is t h e fi r s t lo t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h e n o v e r s ig h t p l e a s e ? M R S H A I K : T h e o v e r s i g h t is a g a i n b e c a u s e w e w e r e in t h a t i n c r e d i b ly 20 h o n e y m o o n p e r i o d a ll t h e d i ffe r e n t p a r ti e s w o r k e d to g e th e r a n d t h e – t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e J o i n t S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e a n d I n t e ll i g e n c e O v e r s i g h t w a s fo r m e d . I t w a s a m u l ti- p a r ty b o d y. T h e y w e r e r e s o u r c e d t o h a v e t h e ir o w n o ffi c e s . P r o te c ti o n w a s p u t in f o r t h e m t o h a v e s a fe d o c u m e n t k e e p i n g e tc e te r a . B u t t h a t w a s a m u l t i- p a r t y c o m m i t t e e a n d it f u n c t i o n e d v e r y w e l l o v e r t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s a n d th e n t h e Page 80 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 p r o c e s s b e g a n f o r t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e In s p e c t o r G e n e r a l a n d i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll I th i n k th e fi r s t I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l w a s D o c t o r R a n d e r a . H e w a s a p p o i n te d a s th e In s p e c t o r G e n e r a l . CHAIRPERSON: Was Doctor? M R S H A I K : R a n d e r a , Fa z e l R a n d e r a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M R S H A I K : I f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h e r e w a s a l s o th e t h e n A d v o c a t e S k w e y i y a I wanted… 10 M R S H A I K : Ye s A d v o c a t e Sk w e y iy a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : I t h i n k w a s t h e fir s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A IK : R i g h t A d v o c a t e Sk w e y i y a w a s t h e f ir s t a n d t h e n D o c t o r R a n d e r a . T h e o ff ic e o f th e In s p e c t o r G e n e r a l h a d c o n s i d e r a b le p o w e r s o t o s p e a k , th e p o w e r o f s u b p o e n a , t h e p o w e r o f g e t ti n g w h a t e v e r d o c u m e n t fr o m t h e I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s a n d t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s a t t h a t ti m e w a s i m b u e d w i t h t h e s p ir it o f d e m o c r a ti c a c c o u n ta b ili t y. S o t h e r e w a s a m u c h m o r e fo r t h c o m i n g e n g a g e m e n t w i t h t h e o ff ic e o f th e 20 I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l t h e n I w o u l d s a y i t i s n o w b u t th a t w i ll b e my comment. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e n if w e c a n g o R S 4 0 o r n o t R S 4 0 b u t p a g e 4 0 o f E x h i b i t P P 4 . W e h a v e a n In t e l li g e n c e o r g a n o g r a m f o r t h e p e r i o d 1 9 9 7 t o 2 0 0 9 . W h a t c h a n g e d a n d h o w w a s th a t c h a n g e b r o u g h t a b o u t? M R S H A IK : S o – s o y o u w il l r e c a ll t h a t I s a i d t h a t th e – a s i t t in g Page 81 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 m e m b e r o f P a r l ia m e n t l a te J o e M h l a n h l a w a s a p p o i n t e d a s th e c o o r d i n a t o r. T h is g a v e i n c r e d i b le a n x i e ty t o t h e th e n d e m o c r a t ic p a r t y w h o th e n a ls o i n t h e s p ir i t o f r e c o n c i li a ti o n a n d c o o p e r a t iv e g o v e r n a n c e r a i s e d th e is s u e w i t h P r e s i d e n t M a n d e la ’s o ff ic e t h a t y o u c o u l d n o t have a s i tt i n g member of P a r l ia m e n t being c o n s id e r e d as the c o o r d i n a t o r o f I n te ll ig e n c e w h i c h w a s e n v i s a g e d t o b e a – a n o n p o li t ic a l p a r ty p o s i ti o n i n k e e p i n g w i t h t h e – t h e s e c t io n s th a t w e r e a d e a r l ie r. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n a d d it i o n P a r li a m e n t h a d o v e r s ig h t fu n c t io n s . 10 M R S H A IK : Ye s . A n d in a d d i ti o n P a r li a m e n t h a d a n o v e r s i g h t f u n c ti o n . Right. S o h e h a d – s o t h e r e w a s t h is c o n fli c t t h a t w a s t h e r e . t h e n d e c i d e d t h a t t h e la w b e a m e n d e d . It was S o th e l a w w a s a m e n d e d having just passed it in 1994 it was then amended and what then e m e r g e d w a s t h e – t h e d ia g r a m t h a t y o u s e e b e fo r e y o u h e r e . W i t h th e p o w e r s o f th e c o o r d i n a t o r in t h e m a i n w e r e t h e n h o u s e d u n d e r th e M i n is t e r s o f In t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e s a n d a M i n is te r o f In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s was e s t a b l is h e d . The N a t io n a l In t e lli g e n c e b e c a m e n o w u n d e r t h e s u p e r v is io n o f t h e M i n i s t e r. Committee A n d t h is is t h e b e g in n i n g o f th e M in is tr y o f I n te ll ig e n c e a n d t h e d e v e l o p m e n t o f a 20 M i n is t e r o f In t e l li g e n c e a s o p p o s e d t o t h e r e p o r t in g l in e s d ir e c t ly t o t h e President. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th e o v e r s ig h t f u n c ti o n s o f P a r li a m e n t r e m a i n e d ? MR SHAIK: T h e o v e r s i g h t f u n c ti o n s o f P a r l i a m e n t r e m a in e d e x c e p t i f m y – a g a i n m y m e m o r y s e r v e m e c o r r e c t t h a t th e M in is t e r o r t h e – t h e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l ’s o ffi c e b e c a m e d e p e n d e n t o n – o r r e p o r te d d ir e c tl y Page 82 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 n o w to th e M in is t e r a n d in c r e a s i n g ly b e c a m e d e p e n d e n t o n th e M in is t e r B u d g e t w i s e , s t a ff in g w i s e e tc e t e r a . S o t h a t w a s t h e o t h e r s ig n i f ic a n t change. CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y th e In t e l li g e n c e O v e r s i g h t C o m m i t t e e m e n ti o n e d th e r e . M R S H A I K : R e m a in e d t h e s a m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t t h e P a r li a m e n t a r y ? M R S H A I K : T h a t i s t h e P a r l i a m e n t a r y. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. 10 M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e I h a v e j u s t w r it t e n h e r e P a r l ia m e n t a r y t o m a k e s u r e i t i s c l e a r th a t i t i s P a r l ia m e n t – a c o m m i t t e e o f P a r li a m e n t . M R S H A I K : I t i s a c o m m i t t e e o f P a r li a m e n t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n t h e N a ti o n a l I n t e ll ig e n c e C o o r d i n a t i n g C o m m i t t e e w a s n o t a P a r li a m e n ta r y C o m m i t te e ? MR SHAIK: It was not a … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o … 20 M R S H A I K : B u r e a u c r a ti c . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I t h in k th a t is w h y b e c a u s e th e y a r e o n – m o r e o n t h e s a m e l e v e l w h a t I s e e h e r e b u t t h e r e is – t h e r e a r e c e r ta in ly d i ff e r e n t c o lo u r s . MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: A n d I n te ll i g e n c e O v e r s ig h t C o m m i t t e e r e p o r ts t o Page 83 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 P a r li a m e n t a n d th e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l r e p o r ts to P a r li a m e n t . S o – b u t I h a v e ju s t p u t i n P a r l ia m e n t a r y I n t e ll ig e n c e O v e r s i g h t C o m m i t t e e fo r m y o w n p u r p o s e s j u s t to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t – t h a t i s a c o m m i t t e e o f P a r li a m e n t . O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. Perhaps blue is the wrong c o l o u r fo r P a r l ia m e n t . A t t h e – a t t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l s a y n o th i n g . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A t t h e b o tt o m o f t h e p a g e y o u h a v e i n r e d ju s t t o b e f a ir C h a ir a n u m b e r o f o t h e r b o d i e s . 10 It seems that there were some o r g a n i s a t io n a l c h a n g e a t t h e t i m e . M R S H A I K : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . Yo u w o u l d … A D V P R E TO R I U S : C o u l d y o u j u s t p l e a s e b r ie f ly d e s c r i b e t h e v a r io u s e n t i ti e s t h a t h a d d e v e l o p e d a d m i n i s t r a t iv e ly o r o r g a n is a ti o n a ll y a t t h a t ti m e ? CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t Mr S h a i k . U n d e r t h is o r g a n o g r a m o r m a y b e a s w o u ld b e th e c a s e s u b s e q u e n t ly. E ff e c t iv e l y t h e v a r i o u s u n i ts u n d e r S e c r e t S e r v ic e s t h a t w e l o o k e d a t w h e n w e w e r e lo o k i n g a t t h e f ir s t o r g a n o g r a m t h o s e – a ll o f t h o s e u n i ts e ffe c tiv e l y n o w a r e r e p r e s e n t e d u n d e r t h o s e r e d b o x e s a t t h e b o t to m o f 20 t h is o n e – a ll r e p o r t i n g t o t h e M in is t e r ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. MR SHAIK: e s t a b li s h the o r g a n i s a t io n . T h a t is c o r r e c t . National So what happened was the process I n t e l li g e n c e Agency as a standalone T h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s a s a s t a n d a l o n e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d Page 84 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h e n c e r ta i n f u n c ti o n s t h a t w e r e p r e v io u s l y i n th e N I A w e r e n o t c r e a te d a s s ta n d a l o n e e n ti ti e s . A c a d e m y o f Tr a i n i n g . A n d t h o s e e n t it ie s a r e i n d e e d t h e N a t i o n a l S o i t w a s c a l le d – A Tr a i n i n g Ac a d e my th a t tr a i n e d b o t h m e m b e r s o f th e – t h e N a t io n a l I n t e l li g e n c e A g e n c y a n d m e m b e r s o f t h e S o u th A f r i c a n S e c r e t S e r v ic e a n d o ffe r e d t r a in i n g to o th e r d e p a r t m e n t s if s o r e q u e s t e d . T h e N a t io n a l C o m m u n i c a t io n s C e n tr e is t h e – is t h e c e n tr e t h a t h a s t h e t e c h n o l o g ic a l c a p a c i ty t o e n g a g e i n te c h n o l o g i c a l i n t e l li g e n c e i n te r c e p t io n a n d th a t is c a ll e d th e NCC. 10 Th e e le c tr o n ic c o m m u n i c a t io n o f C O N C E C w a s a – a n e n t i ty c r e a te d t o d e a l w it h i n te r n a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n s o f g o v e r n m e n t s o t h a t g o v e r n m e n t c o u l d c o m m u n ic a t e to e a c h o th e r i n a m o r e s e c u r e – s e c u r e w a y t h a n i t c u r r e n tl y o r i t w a s d o i n g a t th e t i m e . A n d l a s tl y th e o ffic e o f th e I n t e r c e p t io n C e n tr e w a s a – a g a in a a u t h o r it y c r e a t e d w h e r e b y t h e P o l ic e a n d th e M il it a r y a n d t h e C i v il i a n In t e lli g e n c e c o u l d a d d r e s s i ts r e q u e s t f o r p a r t ic u l a r in t e r c e p ti o n . And again it had to f o ll o w a p a r t ic u l a r p r o t o c o l. T h e o ffi c e o f th e i n te r c e p t io n w o u l d h a v e t o g e t j u d ic ia l a p p r o v a l f o r th is . T h e j u d g e w il l s ti p u l a te t h e p e r io d f o r h o w l o n g a n d u n d e r w h a t c o n d i ti o n s e tc e t e r a a n d i t w a s th e o ff ic e , t h e I O C o b li g a ti o n t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e g u la t i o n s o r t h e s ti p u l a ti o n s w e r e 20 in d e e d a d h e r e d t o . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d th e n o n p a g e 4 1 o f E x h i b i t P P 4 y o u h a v e y e t a n o t h e r s e r i e s o f s tr u c t u r e s a n d r e p o r t i n g li n e s . A g a i n p le a s e i f y o u w o u ld e x p l a i n to th e C h a ir w h a t c h a n g e d a n d h o w w a s t h a t c h a n g e brought about? A n d y o u m e n t io n p a r ti c u l a r ly y o u r t h o u g h ts a b o u t a p r o c l a m a t io n b e in g u s e d . Page 85 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : Ye s . S o u n d e r t h e – th e In t e lli g e n c e O r g a n o g r a m e n ti t le d 2 0 1 0 t o 2 0 1 9 th e r e w a s n o w a – a r e v e r s a l s o t o s p e a k . R i g h t a n d th e r e v e r s a l w a s th e p r o c l a m a ti o n c r e a t e d a n e w e n t i ty c a l l e d t h e S S A t h e S o u th A fr ic a n – th e A D V P R E TO R I U S : S t a t e S e c u r i ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a t e S e c u r i ty. MR SHAIK: I c a n n o t e v e n g e t th e n a m e . S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y a n d t h e N I A w a s c o n v e r t e d i n t o th e d o m e s t ic b r a n c h o f t h e S S A a n d t h e S o u th A fr ic a n S e c r e t S e r v ic e w a s c o n v e r t e d in t o th e f o r e i g n b r a n c h o f 10 t h e S S A . A n d a l l o f t h is w a s d o n e b y p r o c l a m a ti o n . A D V P R E TO R I U S : U n d e r t h e a u s p i c e s o f a D ir e c to r G e n e r a l ? M R S H A I K : A n d a ll o f t h i s w o u l d h a v e b e e n u n d e r t h e a u s p ic e s o f t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l . I was made or Mr Gibson Nganga was made the H e a d o f t h e d o m e s ti c b r a n c h . I was made the head of the foreign b r a n c h a n d b e c a u s e i t w a s a n i n te r i m p e r i o d w e a s s u m e d o u r fu n c t io n s a s D ir e c to r G e n e r a ls o f th o s e p r e v i o u s s e r v ic e s . A n d it w a s c o n s id e r e d t h is is b e a n in t e r i m p e r i o d a s t h e n e w p a r a d ig m w a s e v o lv i n g . I s a y t h a t i t w a s m a d e b y p r o c l a m a ti o n a n d i t d i d c r e a t e s o m e a n x i e t y f o r u s a n d i n p a r tic u l a r fo r m e b e c a u s e I w a s n o t t o o s u r e w h e t h e r a 20 p r o c l a m a t io n is in k e e p i n g w i t h t h e w o r d s t h a t th e P r e s i d e n t f o r a n y in t e l li g e n c e s e r v ic e o t h e r th a n t h e i n te ll i g e n c e d i v i s i o n o f t h e D e f e n c e o r P o l ic e S e r v ic e m a y b e e s t a b li s h e d o n l y b y th e P r e s i d e n t . Ye s t h e P r e s i d e n t d i d e s t a b li s h b y p r o c l a m a ti o n a s t h e H e a d o f t h e N a ti o n a l E x e c u t iv e . Ye s h e d i d s o in h is c a p a c i ty a s H e a d o f th e N a t i o n a l E x e c u t iv e a n d o n l y i n t e r m s o f N a t io n a l L e g is la t io n . I w a s n o t – I w a s Page 86 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 n o t o f t h e v i e w t h a t p r o c l a m a ti o n r e p r e s e n t s N a t i o n a l L e g is la t io n . CHAIRPERSON: C a n w e g o b a c k to t h e P r o v is i o n o f t h e C o n s t i tu t io n t h a t m a k e s th e p o in t th a t o n l y in te r ms o f N a ti o n a l L e g is la t io n – w h a t w a s t h a t s e c ti o n ? M R S H A I K : I t i s S e c ti o n 2 0 9 [1 ] . CHAIRPERSON: 2 0 9 [ 1 ]. W e l l I t h in k t h e o r d i n a r y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t N a t io n a l L e g is l a ti o n m e a n s l e g is la t io n p a s s e d b y P a r li a m e n t. M R S H A I K : Ex a c t ly. CHAIRPERSON: 10 A n d i f t h a t u n d e r s ta n d i n g is c o r r e c t t h e n t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f a n y s u c h s e r v ic e i n – b y w a y o f a n y t h in g o t h e r t h a n N a t io n a l L e g i s l a ti o n p a s s e d b y P a r l i a m e n t th e n – u n l e s s t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u a n d I d o n o t k n o w th e n it w o u l d a p p e a r t h a t i t m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n i n l i n e w i t h th is . O k a y, a lr ig h t. M R S H A I K : J a a n d t h a t p r e c is e ly w a s o u r c o n c e r n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d I m u s t s a y i t is a c o n c e r n o f A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : C o n c e r n o f D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l G ib s o n a n d m y s e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R S H A I K : B e c a u s e w e h a d t h e e x p e r ie n c e a n d t h e k n o w le d g e o f t h e w a y – w h a t w a s i n te n d e d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : B y t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n . W h a t w a s in t e n d e d i n t h e L e g is la t io n a n d w h e n w e s a w i t i n p r o c l a m a t io n w e w e r e a li t tl e c o n f u s e d o n is th is u s u r p i n g th e – th e a u th o r it y o f P a r li a m e n t b e c a u s e i f y o u r e m e m b e r Page 87 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 e a r l ie r o n w e – i t s a y s t h a t N a ti o n a l S e c u r i t y m u s t b e s u b j e c t t o t h e a u t h o r i ty o f t h e e x e c u t iv e a n d P a r l ia m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d th is w a s a s t r u c t u r e o f a N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty b e i n g b o r n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : T h r o u g h p r o c l a m a ti o n w h e r e P a r li a m e n t h a s – h a d n o t y e t t h e b e n e fi t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : O f d e b a ti n g th e p r o c l a m a ti o n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : O r th e N a t io n a l L e g is l a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . H m . H m . A n d o f c o u r s e th e – t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p a r ti c u l a r r a ti o n a le b e h i n d t h a t k i n d o f p r o v is i o n to s a y, o n ly b y w a y o f N a t io n a l L e g is l a ti o n . T h e r e is a n e m p h a s is y o u c a n n o t d o i t i n a n y o t h e r w a y. I t m u s t o n l y b e t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d i t c a n o n ly b e – e v e n if it is h i m b u t i t c a n o n ly b e i n t e r m s o f N a ti o n a l L e g i s l a ti o n . MR SHAIK: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: And that is… M R S H A I K : A n d th e i n t e n t w a s v e r y c l e a r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t – i t – in o t h e r w o r d s m a y b e th e r a t io n a l e m i g h t h a v e b e e n a n d y o u c a n t a l k m o r e a b o u t a t s o m e s t a g e i f i t is n e c e s s a r y b u t th e i d e a m u s t h a v e b e e n th a t i f i t is l e g is l a t i o n i f i t is e s ta b lis h e d in t e r m s o f N a ti o n a l L e g is l a t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n p a s s e d b y P a r li a m e n t t h e n it w i ll b e a c c e p t a b l e to P a r li a m e n t w h i c h is t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o f t h e p e o p l e o f S o u th A fr ic a . I t w o u l d b e a c c e p ta b l e to t h e m b u t a ls o t h e n Page 88 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h e is s u e o f o v e r s i g h t I g u e s s c o m e s in ? O k a y. T h a n k y o u . MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d a s y o u h a v e p o i n t e d o u t C h a i r f u n d a m e n ta l t o t h is is s u e w h ic h w e w il l r e s e a r c h j u s t t o s e e t h a t w e h a v e n o t m is s e d s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h e w a y i s t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l r o l e o f P a r l i a m e n t a n d i ts f u l fi l m e n t o f th a t r o l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d p e r h a p s e v e n t h e u s u r p i n g o f t h a t r o l e b u t t h a t is s u b j e c t t o o u r r e s e a r c h e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : M r S h a ik if y o u l o o k a t t h is d ia g r a m d e a l in g w i t h t h e p e r i o d 2 0 1 0 t o 2 0 1 9 i t d o e s n o t r e fl e c t th e M i li t a r y s i tu a ti o n b u t I p r e s u m e t h a t is t h e s a m e ? It g o e s t h r o u g h th e M i n is t e r o f D e fe n c e ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : W i t h t h e In t e l li g e n c e f u n c ti o n ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : W h a t is i m p o r ta n t to p e r h a p s to e m p h a s i s e i s t h e o n g o i n g a c c o u n t a b il it y o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e u n d e r th e a u s p ic e s o f t h e S o u th A f r i c a n P o li c e S e r v ic e s s t il l s u b j e c t t o th e o v e r s i g h t o f t h e 20 I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l o f In t e l li g e n c e a n d in d e e d P a r li a m e n t ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h e n if o n e g o e s t o t h e N a t io n a l I n te ll ig e n c e C o o r d in a ti n g C o m m i t te e a n d t h e In t e l li g e n c e C o o r d in a t o r t h a t r e m a i n s t h e s a m e b u t n o w r e p o r ti n g . M R S H A I K : Ye s . Page 89 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : To t h e M i n i s te r o f S t a te S e c u r i t y a s h e is n o w n a m e d o r s h e is n o w n a m e d ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : B u t w h a t y o u h a v e e m p h a s is e d is t h a t a s i n g l e o r g a n i s a t io n a l e n ti ty t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y w a s fo r m e d w it h it s tw o b r a n c h e s d o m e s ti c a n d f o r e i g n ? MR SHAIK: T h a t is c o r r e c t . If I m a y j u s t a d d o n e m o r e p o i n t t h a t – t h a t i n th e m a n n e r i n w h ic h a l l t h i s h a s b e e n a r r iv e d a t t h e p r in c i p l e a n d w h ic h I a m v e r y p a s s i o n a t e a b o u t – th e p r i n c i p le o f c o o r d in a ti o n i n 10 my view has been undermined. S o n o w w e h a v e g o n e b a c k to a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e e a c h in t e l li g e n c e a g e n c y – I m e a n e a c h i n te ll ig e n c e s e r v ic e s w h e t h e r it i s t h e s e c u r i ty, t h e C i v il ia n In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e o r t h e P o li c e o r t h e M il it a r y b e c a u s e th e y h a v e b e e n – t h e r e h a v e b e e n b a d c o v e r a g e a b o u t a ll o f th e m y o u c a n s e e t h a t y o u a r e s t a r t in g t o s e e t h e b r e a k d o w n o f t h e c o o r d in a ti o n w h i c h is w h a t th e C o n s t i tu t io n in t e n d e d . S o i n a p e r io d o f – fr o m t h e ti m e t h e s e c h a n g e s w e r e m a d e y o u e ff e c t iv e ly h a v e n o c o o r d in a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t c a n n o t r e a l ly b e g o o d b e c a u s e t h e r e s h o u l d b e a s h a r i n g o f i n f o r m a t i o n a n d … n d th a t c a n n o t r e a l ly b e g o o d b e c a u s e 20 t h e r e s h o u l d b e a s h a r in g o f in f o r m a t io n a n d … MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: And so on. MR SHAIK: Ja. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d i t d o e s n o t a l l o w a n y p a r t ic u l a r in t e l li g e n c e a g e n c y o r p a r t o f a n i n t e ll i g e n c e a g e n c y t o g o o ff o n a fr o l ic o f it s o w n Page 90 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 as it were. MR SHAIK: C o r r e c t i n t h e a b s e n c e o f c o o r d i n a t io n y o u w o u l d h a v e fr o l ic s o f y o u r o w n . Yo u w o u l d h a v e i n t h e in t e l li g e n c e w o r l d e v e r y o n e r e c r u it i n g t h e s a m e s o u r c e a n d i n m y o p i n i o n h a s g iv e n r is e to t h e e n tr e n c h m e n t o f a p h e n o m e n o n n o t u n i q u e t o S o u t h A f r i c a . phenomenon of d is i n f o r m a t io n , in f o r m a ti o n pedlars and The bogus in f o r m a n ts w h i c h i s a p h e n o m e n o n th a t f e a tu r e s r e g u la r ly i n S o u t h A fr ic a ’s l e x ic o n a n d la n g u a g e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : S o y o u w i ll t o u c h o n t h a t l a t e r in y o u r e v i d e n c e . 10 M R S H A I K : L a te r o n . Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : B u t t h e t w o i m p o r t a n t p r i n c ip le s a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u h a v e e m p h a s is e d a r e 1 c o o r d i n a ti o n a n d 2 o v e r s i g h t a n d c o n tr o l . MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir i t is o n e o ’ c l o c k i s i t c o n v e n ie n t t o t a k e t h e lo n g a d j o u r n m e n t ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s l e t u s t a k e t h e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t . W e w i ll r e s u m e a t t w o o ’c l o c k . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . 20 R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s p r o c e e d . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. O v e r t h e l o n g a d jo u r n m e n t w e h a d o c c a s i o n to o b t a i n r e l e v a n t p o r t io n s o f t h e I n t e r i m C o n s t i tu t io n a n d Page 91 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a l t h o u g h i t n e e d s t o b e c h e c k e d I a m a b l e to s a y a t t h e m o m e n t th a t i t d e a ls v e r y s p a r s e ly a n d i n v e r y g e n e r a l t e r m s w i th I n t e r n a l S e c u r it y w h ic h is a f u n c ti o n in th e In t e r i m C o n s ti t u ti o n u n d e r th e S o u t h A f r i c a n P o lic e S e r v i c e a n d t h e n i n th e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l p r i n c i p l e s d e a ls w i t h S e c u r i ty Fo r c e s b e in g : “ R e q u ir e d t o p e r f o r m t h e ir f u n c ti o n s a n d p o w e r s in t h e n a ti o n a l in t e r e s t a n d s h a ll b e p r o h i b it e d fr o m f u r th e r in g o r p r e j u d i c e - p r e j u d ic in g p a r t y p o l i tic a l in t e r e s t . ” B u t s u b j e c t t o a c h e c k t h a t t h o s e s e e m t o b e th e o n l y tw o o r 10 t h r e e s e c ti o n s o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a n d c o n s ti t u ti o n a l p r i n c i p l e s t h a t m i g h t b e r e l e v a n t . S o t h e - t h e s i m p le a n s w e r is th a t t h e r e is n o d e ta il … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V P R E TO R I U S : C e r t a i n l y o f th e n a t u r e in t h e F in a l C o n s ti t u t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : I f - if y o u … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V P R E TO R I U S : W o u l d li k e a c o p y n o w … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e h a v e a c o p y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : O f t h e r e l e v a n t s e c t io n s . W e h a v e n o t c o p i e d a l l o f it … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : B u t w e w il l d o s o a f t e r c h e c k i n g . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. S o w e c o u l d r e p l a c e t h is m a y b e t o m o r r o w Page 92 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 m o r n in g w i t h o n e t h a t … A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . I t w il l b e r e p l a c e d t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Pr o p e r ly p a g in a t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : M r S h a ik a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t o n p a g e 3 of the bundle - PP1. Yo u r e f e r a s y o u r e f e r r e d e a r li e r to y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t a n d t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f y o u r t w o c o ll e a g u e s ? MR SHAIK: That is correct. 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 11 : “ C o l le c t iv e l y w e w e r e a c q u ir e d t o f o r m t h e n e w o r g a n i s a t io n t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y. ” A n d y o u h a v e a l lu d e d t o t h a t in y o u r e x p l a n a t i o n s o f t h e c h a n g e s i n t h e s tr u c t u r e s e a r li e r t o d a y ? MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Yo u r e f e r i n p a r a g r a p h 11 t o d i ff e r e n t o r g a n is a ti o n a l s tr u c t u r e s . W h a t a r e t h o s e ? T h a t is b e f o r e t h e c h a n g e . M R S H A I K : Ye s . T h e s e w e r e t h e - t h e s tr u c t u r e s b e f o r e th e c h a n g e . T h e y w e r e th e s tr u c t u r e s t h a t r e s u l t e d f ir s t o n t h e f o u n d i n g L e g i s l a ti o n 20 in 1 9 9 4 a n d t h e A m e n d e d L e g i s l a ti o n in 1 9 9 7 a n d th e y a r e t h e N a t i o n a l I n t e lli g e n c e A g e n c y, t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n Se c r e t S e r v ic e , t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n N a ti o n a l A c a d e m y o f I n te ll ig e n c e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : I t w a s f o r tr a i n in g ? M R S H A I K : T h e tr a in in g . T h e N a ti o n a l C o m m u n ic a t i o n C e n tr e w h i c h i s t h e i n f r a s t r u c t u r e f o r t h e i n te r c e p ti o n s . T h e O ff ic e o f t h e I n t e r c e p t io n Page 93 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C e n tr e s w h ic h is t h e f a c i li t a ti n g o ff ic e o f t h e R e g u l a t o r y O ff ic e a n d t h e E l e c tr o n ic C o m m u n ic a t i o n s Sy s te m . O t h e r w i s e k n o w n a s C O M S E C . A s t h e C o m m u n ic a ti o n S y s t e m t o b e p u t in p l a c e b e t w e e n a n a m o n g s t G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . T h e n Mr S h a i k y o u r e f e r t o b r i e f ly a n d i n p a s s i n g th is m o r n i n g t o a s i g n i fi c a n t p r i n c i p l e i n t h e c h a n g e s . I t s e e m s t h a t p r i o r to 2 0 0 9 t o 2 0 11 t h e v a r i o u s I n t e lli g e n c e s t r u c tu r e s w e r e s e p a r a t e d o r g a n is a ti o n a ll y ? M R S H A I K : T h a t i s - t h a t is c o r r e c t . 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d a f t e r t h e c h a n g e s i n 2 0 0 9 t o 2 0 11 a s in th e p a s t t h e y h a d b e c o m e c o n s o l i d a t e d o n c e m o r e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR SHAIK: Th a t i s c o r r e c t. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I s t h e r e a n y t h i n g s i g n i f ic a n t i n th a t ? M R S H A I K : Ye s i n d e e d . T h e - t h e w h i te p a p e r t h a t i n fo r m e d t h e la w s t h a t w e r e p a s s e d i n 1 9 9 4 h a d a v e r y r a t io n a l b a s is to w h y w e w a n t e d t o h a v e t h e d is p e n s a t io n t h a t w e n e g o ti a t e d f o r a b o u t f o u r y e a r s a n d o n e o f th e c e n tr a l p r in c i p l e s w a s t o e n s u r e t h a t w e d o n o t h a v e e x c e s s i v e c o n c e n tr a ti o n o f p o w e r in o n e o r g a n i s a ti o n w h ic h is w h a t i n fa c t o c c u r r e d u n d e r t h e p r e v i o u s d is p e n s a t io n - t h e a p a r t h e id d is p e n s a ti o n . 20 W h e r e y o u h a d f o r e x a m p l e th e N a ti o n a l In t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e t h a t h o u s e d b o t h th e d o m e s tic o p e r a t io n a n d i ts f o r e i g n o p e r a t io n . S o o n e o f t h e p r in c i p l e s o f t h e n e w d is p e n s a t io n w a s t o s e p a r a t e t h e s e p o w e r s a n d … ( i n te r v e n e s ) . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d c o o r d i n a t e . S e p a r a te b u t c o o r d i n a t e ? M R S H A I K : S e p a r a te a n d c o o r d i n a te . Page 94 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . M R S H A I K : S o t h a t is w h y c o o r d i n a t io n b e c a m e a - a p r i n c i p l e a n d t h e s e p a r a t io n o f p o w e r s b e c a m e a p r in c i p l e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . I a m s o r r y f o r i n te r r u p t in g . Ye s y o u w e r e s a y in g . MR SHAIK: Ye s . S o th a t w a s th e - t h e r a t i o n a l e th a t i n f o r m e d th e d e m o c r a tic d i s p e n s a ti o n o f I n te ll ig e n c e a n d i t w o u l d a p p e a r to m e th a t b y th e p r o c l a m a ti o n w e w e r e n o w g o i n g b a c k to a p r e - d e m o c r a tic e r a w h e r e w e w e r e c o n s o l id a ti n g e v e r y t h i n g in t o o n e o r g a n i s a t io n a g a in . 10 W i th t h e u n i n t e n d e d o r i n t e n d e d c o n s e q u e n c e o f e x c e s s i v e p o w e r i n o n e o r g a n i s a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d y o u b e e n p a r t o f th e d i s c u s s io n s t h a t le d t o t h e p r o c l a m a t io n o r d id t h a t - d i d th o s e d is c u s s io n s h a p p e n w h i le y o u w e r e o u t o f G o v e r n m e n t s e r v i c e a n d y o u c a m e in w h e n t h o s e h a d e i th e r a d v a n c e d to o fa r o r h a d b e e n c o m p l e t e d ? M R S H A I K : I w a s n o t p a r ty t o th o s e d is c u s s i o n s . T h e y h a p p e n e d p r io r t o o u r c o m in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d s u b s e q u e n t w h e n w e t r i e d t o h a v e t h o s e d is c u s s i o n s 20 t h a t w a s n o t f o r t h c o m i n g e i t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Yo u w e r e ta s k e d h o w e v e r w i t h t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h e o u tc o m e o f t h o s e d i s c u s s io n s a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t . MR SHAIK: That is correct. Under D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a . Page 95 of 194 th e leadership of th e 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ja and then in paragraph 12 you express as you h a v e e x p r e s s e d e a r l ie r y o u r d o u b ts a b o u t th e c o n s t it u ti o n a li t y o f t h i s n e w a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t y o u w e r e m a n d a t e d t o g iv e e ff e c t to . MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : W h a t w e r e t h o s e d o u b t s ? MR SHAIK: W e ll m y - m y fir s t d o u b t w i t h - w a s t h a t i t w a s n o t - th e P r e s i d e n t c o u l d e s t a b li s h a n I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e , b u t h a d t o d o s o i n k e e p i n g w i t h N a t i o n a l L e g is l a ti o n . It s e e m e d to m e t h a t w e w e r e e s t a b li s h in g a n In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e b y p r o c l a m a t io n r a t h e r w i th i n 10 k e e p i n g w i t h N a ti o n a l L e g i s l a ti o n . S o P a r li a m e n t w a s a s w e m e n ti o n e d b e f o r e d id n o t h a v e t h e b e n e fi t o f d is c u s s i n g t h a t N a t io n a l L e g i s la ti o n . S o t h a t is t h e f ir s t o b j e c ti o n I h a d . T h e s e c o n d w a s i n th e n a m e a n d I k n o w n o t h i n g m u c h t u r n s o n t h e n a m e , b u t S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y s e e m e d t o m e a t le a s t fr o m a s e m a n tic p o i n t o f v i e w h a v in g m o v e d a w a y fr o m h u m a n s e c u r i ty w h ic h w a s t h e p r i n c i p l e o u t li n e d i n t h e - t h e C o n s t it u ti o n , b u t a n d t h is is w h y w h e n c h o o s in g t h e n a m e s o r i g i n a ll y in 1 9 9 4 t h e r e w a s n o r e fe r e n c e to S t a t e S e c u r i ty in 1 9 9 4 . I t w a s t h e N a t i o n a l I n te ll ig e n c e A g e n c y a n d t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n 20 S e c r e t S e r v ic e a n d i t w a s a v o i d i n g i n t h e s e n s e t h e u s e f o r th e w o r d s “ S t a t e S e c u r i ty ” . CHAIRPERSON: Well you - you indicate that the name might not be i m p o r t a n t, b u t w e - w e d o k n o w th a t i n c e r t a i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s t h e l a b e l m i g h t n o t b e i m p o r t a n t , b u t i n o t h e r s it c a n b e i m p o r ta n t . Th e n a m e c a n b e i m p o r t a n t , b e c a u s e i t is p a r t o f w h a t i s c o n v e y e d t o p e o p le w h o Page 96 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 h a v e c o n d u c t o r g e t t o k n o w a b o u t t h a t in s t it u ti o n o r t h a t o ffi c e a n d i f t h e n a m e o r t h e la b e l d o e s n o t r e p r e s e n t w h a t is i n te n d e d . I t c o u l d g iv e a w r o n g p e r c e p t io n a b o u t w h a t th e - t h e in s t i tu t io n o r t h e o ffi c e is a b o u t . S o - s o m a y b e y o u s h o u l d n o t b e t o o a p o lo g e tic a b o u t p o i n ti n g t h e s i g n i fic a n c e a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d o f th e d i ffe r e n c e b e tw e e n w h a t w a s i n t e n d e d i n 1 9 9 4 a n d w h a t is r e p r e s e n t e d - w h a t is r e p r e s e n te d b y th e p r o c l a m a t io n i n th e c h a n g e o f t h e n a m e o f th is in s t i tu t io n . M R S H A I K : T h a n k y o u , s ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s a n d y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o t h e s tr u c t u r a l i m p l ic a t i o n s o f th e c h a n g e s a s w e ll ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Yo u d e a l i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 w it h t h e r e p o r ti n g l i n e s t h a t y o u w e r e o b li g e d to f o l lo w o n y o u r a p p o i n t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r Pr e to r i u s . Yo u k n o w M r S h a i k w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g a b o u t th e c h a n g e c o u l d w e l l b e v e r y i m p o r t a n t. M a y b e w h e n o n e o r i f o n e g e ts t o u n d e r s t a n d fr o m t h o s e w h o - w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d in t h e d is c u s s i o n s a n d w h o - w h o c a n a r t ic u l a te t h e r a t i o n a l e . M a y b e i t is 20 n o t s o i m p o r t a n t. I a m n o t s u r e , b u t y o u - I s e e t h a t in y o u r s t a t e m e n t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 y o u s a y t h a t y o u w e r e n e v e r a b l e to d e te r mi n e th e m o t iv e or rationale for - I think - the change. M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w a n d y e t I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d th a t b e c a u s e Page 97 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 o f th e s e n i o r i ty o f th e p o s i t io n y o u h e ld y o u r s e l f a n d p a r tic u l a r ly b e c a u s e o f y o u r p r i o r in v o lv e m e n t i n t h e d is c u s s i o n s l e a d i n g to 1 9 9 4 i n r e g a r d t o I n t e l li g e n c e . I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d th a t y o u w o u l d k n o w b e c a u s e i f y o u a s k y o u w o u l d b e t o l d w h a t w a s th e r a t i o n a l e , b u t a m I t o r e a d t h a t w h a t e v e r a t te m p t s y o u m a y h a v e m a d e t o tr y a n d fi n d o u t w h y is th a t - is t h e r e a d e p a r t u r e fr o m w h a t w e e n v i s a g e t h a t y o u - y o u w e r e n o t g i v i n g a n y c le a r a n s w e r. M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A m I t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h a t is th e p o s i ti o n ? 10 M R S H A I K : T h a t i s - t h a t is c o r r e c t , s ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: Th e - a n d r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e S t a te S e c u r i t y A g e n c y w a s u n d e r t h e l e a d e r s h i p o f t h e D i r e c t o r - G e n e r a l A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a a n d I k n o w th a t h e is t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d u n d e r h is le a d e r s h i p w e h a v e tr i e d o n n u m e r o u s o c c a s i o n s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : To g e t a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e r a t io n a l e . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V P R E TO R I U S : 20 M R S H A I K : S o t h a t w e c o u l d b e l ie v e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: In … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: What it is that we were … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 98 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : W e r e h a v in g to d o … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: And you were right … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : In th e s e n s e t h a t y e s a ll th r e e o f u s h a d t h e k n o w le d g e o f t h e n e g o ti a ti o n p r o c e s s , t h e p a s s a g e th r o u g h th e 1 9 9 4 P a r l ia m e n t . S o t h e r e w a s i n a s e n s e a d is q u i e t a m o n g s t u s a b o u t k n o w i n g th e r a t io n a l e f o r w h y w e h a d s e p a r a t e d th i n g s a n d n o t k n o w i n g t h e r a ti o n a l e n o w f o r w h y w e a r e a m a l g a m a t i n g t h in g s a ll t o g e t h e r, b u t th e n w e - w e n e v e r 10 s u r v iv e d t h a t l o n g to g e t t o th a t p o i n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i t i s ju s t i m p o r t a n t f o r a n u m b e r o f r e a s o n s , b u t p a r t o f w h a t s o m e o f u s - s o m e o f u s - t h e p e o p l e w o n d e r a b o u t. Is s o m e t i m e s w h e r e i t i s th e s a m e G o v e r n m e n t - i t m i g h t h a v e a d i ff e r e n t P r e s i d e n t a t a p a r ti c u l a r ti m e , b u t i t is t h e G o v e r n m e n t o f t h e s a m e r u l i n g p a r t y a n d o n e M in is t e r g o e s a n o th e r o n e c o m e s i n a n d t h e r e a r e so many changes. T h a t i t i s a s if i t i s a M in is t e r fr o m a n e w - a d i ff e r e n t p a r t y who has come in and sometimes not easy to understand. Why? Yo u k n o w, b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t t h e p o lic i e s a n d c e r t a in 20 t h i n g s a n d p r i n c i p le s t h a t a r e b e in g f o l lo w e d a r e th e s a m e , b u t s o m e t i m e s th a t h a p p e n s . I m e a n y o u m a y o r m a y n o t k n o w I - I a m h e a r in g e v i d e n c e i n r e g a r d to t h e d i g it a l m i g r a ti o n a s w e ll a n d I w a s p a r t o f t h e p a n e l i n t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t w h ic h h a d th a t c a s e a n d o v e r a n u m b e r o f y e a r s s tr e tc h i n g o v e r 1 0 y e a r s y o u c o u ld s e e t h e r e w a s n o r e a l p r o g r e s s Page 99 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 b e i n g m a d e o n th e s e d e s k - th e s e … MR SHAIK: Set top. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S e t to p b o x e s . S e t t o p b o x e s a n d a n e w M i n is t e r w o u ld c o m e a n d h e w o u l d s a y t h is is t h e w a y w e a r e g o i n g a n d t h e n la t e r o n a n o t h e r o n e w o u l d c o m e a n d s a y t h is i s t h e w a y w e a r e g o i n g a n d a t th e s a m e t i m e y o u w o u l d b e h a v in g r e p o r t s i n t h e m e d ia t h a t t h e p o li c y p o s i ti o n o f t h e r u li n g p a r ty is d i ffe r e n t fr o m w h a t t h e M i n is t e r i s is d o i n g . S o - s o t h a t is w h y I a m … MR SHAIK: Ja. 10 CHAIRPERSON: S a y in g o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t s o m e b o d y a s senior as yourself … MR SHAIK: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d h a v e b e e n g i v e n in f o r m a ti o n a s t o w h a t is th e r a ti o n a le f o r a c h a n g e fr o m w h a t h a d b e e n w h a t - w h a t a ll o f y o u h a d b e e n c o m f o r ta b le w i t h fr o m 1 9 9 4 . MR SHAIK: Sure. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. M R S H A I K : S ir, I - I t h i n k i t s p e a k s t o t h e v e r y c o n c e p t o f c o h e r e n c e in - in G o v e r n m e n t a n d - a n d p e r h a p s t h a t w e h a v e n o t a l l fu ll y 20 u n d e r s t o o d t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f c o h e r e n c e a n d c o n ti n u i ty a n d e tc e te r a a n d I h a v e d i s c o v e r e d th is p r o b l e m t h r o u g h o u t th e c o n t in e n t a n d e ls e w h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: W h e r e th is c o n s ta n t c h a n g i n g a n d t h e b u r e a u c r a ti c d y s f u n c ti o n a li ty i t p r o d u c e s . Page 100 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : M r S h a ik t h r o u g h o u t t h e s it t in g s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n t h e C h a ir h a s e x p r e s s e d a n i n te r e s t i n t h e v i e w s a n d o p i n io n s o f v a r io u s p e o p l e w h o h a v e h a d th e k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e r i e n c e th a t y o u have … MR SHAIK: Hm. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th a t y o u h a v e a n d y o u h a v e h a d . H e i s o b v io u s ly n o t b o u n d b y th a t , b u t w h a t y o u h a v e p o in t e d o u t h e r e is t h e fa c tu a l b a s is f o r m is g i v i n g s y o u h a d a t t h e t i m e ? 10 MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h e s e m is g iv in g s l e d y o u to I p r e s u m e a s k q u e s t io n s i n y o u r o w n m i n d a n d o f o t h e r s . W i t h h i n d s i g h t a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g h e r e o r e v e n t o g iv e a v i e w ? D C J is n o t g o i n g t o b e b o u n d b y i t , b u t I th in k h e m a y w a n t to k n o w. MR SHAIK: In - in my … C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I j u s t lik e h e a r in g d i ff e r e n t p e r s p e c t iv e s , b e c a u s e w h e t h e r I a g r e e w it h th e m o r n o t t h e y m a y b e b e n e fi c i a l i n k n o w in g about them. M R S H A I K : In - i n m y g e n e r o u s i n te r p r e t a ti o n o f t h e h in d s i g h t . I w o u ld 20 say t h a t th e r e was a lack of experience in u n d e r s t a n d in g the c o m p le x i ti e s o f In t e l li g e n c e a n d w h y w e d e s ig n e d w h a t w a s d e s i g n e d a t t h e ti m e a n d w i t h t h e d r o p p in g o f m y s u g a r l e v e ls I w i ll s a y t h a t i t c o u l d b e i n my v i e w a v e r y n a r c is s i s t ic a p p r o a c h o f t h e c o n s o li d a t i o n o f p o w e r, b e c a u s e p o w e r is a n a t tr a c ti v e t h i n g , b u t w i t h o u t a s s u m i n g t h e o b li g a ti o n s t h a t c o m e w i th t h e c o n s o l i d a t io n o f th a t p o w e r. Page 101 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 S o i t c o u ld b e e i t h e r o f t h e t w o a n d i n p a r ti c u l a r I w o u l d s a y t h a t i n - in t h e c o n d u c t o f v e r y s e n io r o ff i c ia ls a n d I m u s t - a n d I m u s t s a y th a t i f y o u t a k e A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a a s a m u c h s e n i o r p e r s o n t h a n I a m a n d s o i s M r N j e n j e w h o h a v e p e r h a p s a lo n g e r h i s t o r y in t h e I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s . W e w e r e n o t a c c o r d e d th e k in d o f r e s p e c t t h a t s h o u l d n o r m a l ly a c c r u e t o p e r s o n s w i th t h a t e x p e r i e n c e a n d t o a ll o w t h a t e x p e r i e n c e t o s h a p e th e p o li c i e s t h a t w a s u n f o l d in g a n d th a t w a s r a t h e r u n f o r t u n a t e a n d i t le d t o a s i t u a t i o n w h ic h j u s t b e c a m e u n t e n a b le . S o 10 in m y v i e w i t w a s a c o m b in a ti o n o f i n e x p e r i e n c e i n t h e I n t e l li g e n c e a ffa ir s a n d d r i v e n b y a n a r c is s is ti c c o n s o li d a t io n o f p o w e r. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll y o u k n o w o n e - o n e m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o b e c a t e g o r ic a l , b u t i f y o u a r e a s k in g m e a b o u t s o m e th i n g a n d I a m c o n fi d e n t th a t i t - i t is th e r ig h t th in g t o d o a n d I d o n o t h a v e a r e a s o n t o m is tr u s t y o u . I t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I c a n - I s h o u l d - I c a n t e l l y o u a n d I b e li e v e i t is a s o u n d b a s is f o r m y d e c is i o n s . I w o u l d t h i n k t h a t th e n o r m a l t h i n g is i f y o u a r e a s k , t e l l y o u . T h i s i s w h y w e h a v e c h a n g e d . T h is is o u r e x p e r i e n c e . Yo u m i g h t a g r e e o r y o u m i g h t n o t a g r e e , b u t I - I w il l n o t h id e f r o m y o u … 20 MR SHAIK: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: W h a t t h e r e a s o n i n g b e h i n d i t is , b u t o f c o u r s e i f I k n o w t h a t t h e r e a s o n - t h e r e a l r e a s o n b e h in d i t i s n o t a le g i t i m a te o n e . I m ig h t n o t w a n t t o b e tr a n s p a r e n t t o y o u a b o u t i t . J a . O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : g e n e r o u s v e r s io n . Yo u m e n t i o n p o w e r. L e t m e e x p l o r e y o u r le s s P o w e r i n r e l a ti o n to I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s . Page 102 of 194 Where 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 d o e s t h a t le a d o r w h e r e c a n i t l e a d ? MR SHAIK: Well … A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n r e l a ti o n to h o w I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e s a r e u s e d a n d to w h a t e n d . MR SHAIK: Sure. Th e - i t - i t w il l g o t o a d e f in i ti o n o f i n t e lli g e n c e . T h a t I w o u l d s a y t h a t I a c c e p t a n d i s g e n e r a l ly a c c e p te d . I n te ll ig e n c e is a p r o f e s s i o n o f a c ti o n a b le w is d o m . W h e r e w is d o m i s d e r iv e d f r o m t h e t r a n s f o r m a t io n o f d a t a t o i n f o r m a t io n . I n fo r m a ti o n i n t o k n o w l e d g e . K n o w l e d g e i n to in s i g h t . 10 I n s i g h t in t o w is d o m w h ic h is d e s i g n e d e i t h e r t o p r e d ic t e v e n ts o r i n fl u e n c e e v e n t s a n d i n b o t h c a s e s e i t h e r i n t h e p r e d i c t i o n o r in fl u e n c i n g o f e v e n t s i n t e l li g e n c e r e p r e s e n ts a n e n o r m o u s a m o u n t o f power under that concept. A - a k n o w in g w h a t is t o h a p p e n a n d k n o w i n g th i n g s t h a t a r e u n f o l d in g a ll o w s o n e t o b e a b l e t o - t o in f e r e n c e t h e - t h e d i r e c ti o n o f w h a t is u n f o l d i n g . L e t m e g iv e y o u a v e r y s i m p le e x a m p l e . S o i f I k n o w th a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o b e a p p o i n t e d t h e n e x t M in is t e r o f - o f F in a n c e . S i t ti n g h e r e a n d I k n o w t h i s a p p o i n t m e n t w il l ta k e p l a c e in a f e w d a y s ’ ti m e . I w o u ld a l s o a s s e s s h o w th e m a r k e t w i ll i n t e r p r e t y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t a n d I 20 w i ll b e a b l e t o m a k e a p r e d i c ti o n . A h e d g in g o f - o f t h e c u r r e n c y a g a i n s t y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t . I could hedge the currency so that when that appointment does happen I w o u ld b e a b l e t o g e t a w i n d f a ll o n it a n d o f c o u r s e I a m a s s u m i n g t h a t y o u a r e a m a n a n d y o u a r e i n d e e d a m a n o f g r e a t r e s p e c t in - i n in t e r n a t io n a l c o m m u n i ti e s . Page 103 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 T h e r e f o r e I w o u l d b e a b l e to h e d g e th e - t h e c u r r e n c y. So y o u c o u l d s e e h o w k n o w i n g e v e n ts b e f o r e h a n d i s - is s u c h a - a n i m p o r t a n t t h i n g a n d t h a t p o w e r. CHAIRPERSON: Of course another example where it might be if you k n o w th a t I a m g o i n g to b e a p p o i n t e d M i n i s t e r o f F i n a n c e . Yo u k n o w i t in a d v a n c e . E v e n i f y o u d o n o t k n o w i t a s c e r ta i n . M a y b e y o u k n o w i t a s a p r o b a b il i ty a n d y o u d o n o t w a n t th a t t o h a p p e n . Yo u c a n u s e w h a t e v e r in f o r m a t io n y o u h a v e m a y b e t o d is c r e d i t m e b e f o r e th e d e c is i o n is m a d e . 10 M R S H A I K : I n d e e d . Th a t i s t h e d a r k … ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t a s w e l l? M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t c a n h a p p e n ? MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o t h e u s e o f d is i n f o r m a ti o n ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 t h a t y o u r e p o r t e d t o M i n is t e r C w e le t o g e t h e r w it h y o u r tw o c o l le a g u e s w h o w e r e a p p o in t e d 20 at the same time? MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : H o w d id y o u r e g a r d th is d u ty t o r e p o r t t o th e M i n is t e r ? M R S H A I K : I f o r - I f o r o n e - t h is f e l t s o m e w h a t u n c o m f o r t a b l e fo r m e a n d I k n o w t h i s is a v e r y c a r e e r li m i ti n g t h i n , b u t r e a c h in g t h e a g e t h a t I Page 104 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 have I could say it. T h a t I n e v e r tr u ly b e l ie v e d i n t h e - t h e r o le o f a M i n is t e r in I n t e l li g e n c e . I a l w a y s f e l t i t t o b e a n o d d i ty a n d I c a n e x p l a i n w h y I b e li e v e i t i s a n o d d i ty a n d I d o n o t b e l ie v e t h a t t h e C o n s t i tu t io n - t h e C o n s t i tu t io n p r e f e r r e d t h a t t h i s b e a P r e s i d e n t ia l r e s p o n s i b i li ty r a t h e r t h a n a M in is t e r i a l r e s p o n s i b i li ty. H o w e v e r h a v i n g n o w t o r e p o r t t o a M i n i s te r i n m y o w n m i n d I k n e w i t w il l - i t w i ll p r o v i d e t h e b a s is o f c o n fli c t. D o e s a M i n i s t e r d i r e c t I n t e lli g e n c e O p e r a t io n s ? M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h e M i n i s t e r s h o u l d n o t d ir e c t I n te ll ig e n c e O p e r a ti o n s a n d a r a n g e o f t h e s e is s u e s m a d e m e 10 f e e l u n c o m f o r t a b le a b o u t h a v i n g t o r e p o r t t o a M in is t e r a n d t h e p r e f e r e n c e i s t h a t i t - y o u w o u l d g o t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d i t is - i t is a n e x p r e s s io n o r l e t m e j u s t s a y a d e r i v a t iv e o f m a t u r i ty. T h a t i f e v e r y o n e u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t t h e r e a r e m a tt e r s i n w h ic h a - a H e a d o f t h e I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v i c e o r i n t h i s c a s e t h e H e a d o f t h e t h e S t a t e S e c u r i ty A g e n c y s h o u l d h a v e u n f e t te r e d a c c e s s to t h e P r e s i d e n t t o g o a n d d i s c u s s w i th t h e P r e s id e n t m a t te r s o f N a t io n a l importance. A n e x a m p l e o f w h ic h c o u ld b e i f th e r e w a s In t e l li g e n c e p ic k e d u p a b o u t t h e v e r y M i n i s t e r o f I n t e ll i g e n c e . 20 General do? W h a t w o u ld t h e D i r e c t o r - W i ll t h e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l t a k e th a t In t e l li g e n c e t o t h e s u b j e c t o f t h e I n te ll i g e n c e o r s h o u l d t h e - t h e D i r e c t o r - G e n e r a l b e a b l e t o t a k e t h is m a t t e r d ir e c tly t o th e P r e s id e n t a n d t h e n t h e M i n is t e r s h o u l d h a v e t h e m a j o r i ty o r t h e c o m f o r t to a c c e p t t h a t i n th e e v e n t t h a t s u c h m a t t e r s a r e t a k e n d ir e c tly t o t h e P r e s i d e n t w i t h o u t h i s o r h e r knowledge. Page 105 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 T h a t t h a t is a n a c c e p ta b le p r a c ti c e o f In t e lli g e n c e . W h e r e a s if y o u o n ly h a d o n e s i n g l e r o u t e th r o u g h a M in is t e r y o u h a v e a - y o u w o u ld b e p r e s e n t e d a t s o m e p o in t i n ti m e w i t h s o m e d i ff ic u l t ie s . S e c o n d ly, a n d th is is a g a i n m y is s u e s a n d I k n o w m y c o ll e a g u e s m a y s h a r e i t t o v a r io u s d e g r e e s . W h e n y o u a p p o i n t a M in is t e r o f I n t e ll i g e n c e in a C a b i n e t y o u a r e i n e ff e c t iv e ly m a k i n g h i m f ir s t a m o n g s t p e e r s o r h e r f ir s t a m o n g p e e r s , b e c a u s e t h a t M i n i s te r b y t h e v e r y p o r t f o l io t h a t h e o r s h e o c c u p i e s w i ll c o m e to k n o w i n f o r m a t io n a b o u t o th e r M i n is t e r s f o r w h ic h 10 h e o r s h e w o u l d h a v e i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t a n d i t j u s t s e e ms t h a t it - i t is it is a n u n p r e f e r r e d s i t u a t io n a n d i t s h o u l d g o d ir e c t ly t o t h e P r e s i d e n t , b u t lik e I a m s a y i n g t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n m a k e p r o v i s i o n f o r th e d e l e g a ti o n . T h e la w m a k e s - e s t a b l is h e d a M in is t e r. I j u s t fe l t i t w a s - a n d t h is is a g l o b a lly c o n t e s t e d d e b a t e d i s s u e . I a l w a y s f a v o u r e d th e n o t io n th a t th e In t e l li g e n c e s h o u l d r e p o r t d ir e c t ly to t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d n o t v i a a M in is t e r a n d i f y o u d o h a v e a M in is te r s t ip u la t e q u i t e c le a r ly w h a t th e M i n is t e r i s e n ti t le d to d o n o t e n ti t le d to d o . W h a t s h o u l d th e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l d o a n d w h a t th e D ir e c t o r General should not do. 20 S o t h a t t h e r e is n o c o n fl ic t i n - in s i t u a t io n s when it does arise. CHAIRPERSON: Tw o th in g s . One, of course even when you report d ir e c t ly t o th e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e r e is n o i n t e r v e n i n g M i n is t e r th e r e m a y b e o c c a s i o n s w h e n t h e I n t e l li g e n c e y o u p ic k p o i n ts to th e Pr e s i d e n t himself. MR SHAIK: Sure. Page 106 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : In c e r t a i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s . MR SHAIK: Sure. CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e - y o u m i g h t k n o w b e t te r. Maybe it is not something usual with Presidents around the world. Maybe it is s o m e t h i n g th a t d o e s h a p p e n , b u t - b u t o f c o u r s e th e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k i n g is y o u w a n t t o r e d u c e to t h e a b s o l u t e m i n i m u m … MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : S it u a ti o n s o f c o n fl ic t. M R S H A I K : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u w a n t to g o to t h e u l ti m a t e o ffi c e , b u t y o u a l s o m a d e t h e p o in t t h a t th e M in is t e r d o e s n o t d ir e c t t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f I n t e lli g e n c e . N o w w h e n y o u s a y t h a t h o w d i ff e r e n t ly - h o w d i ff e r e n t is t h a t fr o m o t h e r p o r t f o li o s w i th r e g a r d t o t h e M i n i s te r a n d th e i r D G s . N o r m a l ly o n e u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t M in is t e r s w i ll n o t g e t i n v o l v e d i n o p e r a ti o n a l m a t te r s . T h e - t h e y w i ll b e d e a li n g w it h p o lic i e s a n d t h e n th e D G w i ll b e d e a li n g w i t h o p e r a t i o n a l m a t t e r s , b u t I g u e s s th e r e m a y b e m a n y c a s e s w h e r e m a y b e t h e d is ti n c t io n is d i ffic u l t t o id e n ti fy, b u t I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e th e r w h e n y o u s a y t h a t. 20 N a m e l y t h e M in is t e r o f I n t e lli g e n c e w o u l d n o t o r s h o u l d n o t b e d e a l in g w i th d ir e c t - s h o u l d n o t b e d i r e c t i n g t h e o p e r a t io n s . W h e t h e r y o u a r e s i m p ly r e f le c ti n g w h a t is s o m e t h i n g th a t th is - t h a t a p p li e s t o o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts a s w e ll o r y o u a r e a r ti c u l a t i n g s o m e t h i n g t h a t is p e c u li a r t o I n t e ll i g e n c e ? M R S H A I K : I a m - I a m s a y i n g i t is p e c u li a r t o I n t e l li g e n c e a n d t h e r e Page 107 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a r e v a r i o u s r e a s o n s f o r t h a t. I n s o m e c o u n tr i e s t h e in f il tr a ti o n o f s o m e c o u n tr i e s b y y o u r I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s is a n e v e n t t h a t c o u l d l e a d to t h o s e p e o p l e c o mi n g u n d e r s e r i o u s h a r m . In the event that they are d e t e c t e d e tc e te r a . S o o n e h a s t o a p p l y i n c r e d i b l e c a u ti o n a n d th e D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l a n d t h e l a w s ti p u l a te s t h a t t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l i s o b l i g e d to k e e p m e t h o d s , s o u r c e s , in t e l li g e n c e in s u c h a w a y a s to p r o te c t h i s o r h e r m e m b e r s a n d t h e l a w m a k e s n o d is t in c t io n f r o m w h o i t m u s t b e p r o t e c t e d fr o m b u t i n my v i e w i t i n c lu d e s p r o te c ti n g it fr o m th e M in is t e r, 10 s o t h a t t h e M i n is t e r s h o u l d n o t k n o w t h a t s o a n d s o m a y p o s s i b l y b e w o r k i n g f o r th e s e r v i c e o r t h is is h o w t h e s e r v ic e is g o i n g t o d o c e r t a i n t h i n g s in o r d e r t o p r o te c t th e Mi n is t e r, b u t a ls o t o p r o te c t th e p e o p l e in v o lv e d in s u c h o p e r a t io n s , a n d b e c a u s e o f t h e p a r tic u la r n a tu r e o f in t e l li g e n c e d u e c o n s i d e r a t io n m u s t b e g iv e n t o w h a t i n f o r m a ti o n i s s h a r e d o u t s i d e o f t h e s e r v ic e a n d t o w h o , a n d t h i s is w h y th e r e l a ti o n s h i p o f tr u s t b e tw e e n th e H e a d o f t h e S e r v ic e a n d th e P r e s i d e n t is s a c r o s a n c t in I n t e l li g e n c e a n d th e m o m e n t y o u f e e l t h a t t h e H e a d o f t h e S e r v ic e f e e l s t h a t h e lo s t , o r s h e h a s l o s t t h e tr u s t o f t h e P r e s i d e n t t h e d e c e n t t h in g t o d o is t o t e n d e r o u r r e s i g n a ti o n a n d t o l e a v e b e c a u s e 20 o u t s i d e o f t h a t t r u s t n o r e l a t i o n s h ip in in t e l li g e n c e c a n w o r k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is y o u r e v i d e n c e t h e r e f o r e to t h e e ffe c t th a t e v e n i n a c a s e w h e r e t h e r e i s n o in t e r v e n i n g M i n i s t e r, t h e r e i s n o M i n i s t e r o f I n t e lli g e n c e a n d t h e H e a d o f I n t e lli g e n c e r e p o r ts d ir e c tl y t o th e P r e s i d e n t i s y o u r e v id e n c e t o th e e ffe c t t h a t i n t h a t s i t u a t io n t h e d ir e c t in g o f th e o p e r a ti o n s r e s id e s w it h t h e H e a d o f t h e In t e l li g e n c e a n d Page 108 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 not the President? MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , s o t h a t is h o w i t s h o u ld b e a n d t h a t is h o w a t le a s t m a y b e i t w a s a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e in S o u th A fr ic a . MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t . MR SHAIK: A n d th a t i s t h e w a y it s h o u l d b e , a n d t h a t i s w h y y o u h a v e g o t t o s e e t h e th r e e p i e c e s o f l e g is la t io n t o g e t h e r. T h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l is r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h e o p e r a t io n o f t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v i c e s , 10 y o u h a v e a n In s p e c t o r G e n e r a l i n c a s e s o f a b u s e s , y o u h a v e t h e P a r li a m e n ta r y o v e r s i g h t c o m m i t t e e in t h e c a s e s t o o v e r s e e b u d g e t e tc e t e r a , s o a v e r y e l a b o r a t e s y s te m o f c h e c k s a n d b a l a n c e s w e r e p u t in t o p l a c e to e n s u r e th a t t h e r e i s n o a b u s e , b u t i t w a s p r e m is e d o n th e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s a n d in p a r t ic u l a r t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l w i ll b e p r o f e s s i o n a l , w i ll c o n d u c t t h e m s e lv e s – w e h a v e s t ip u la t e d a l l o f t h a t i n th e C o n s ti t u ti o n t h a t i t w ill d o t h i n g s b y t h e l a w e tc e t e r a , a n d i t r e q u i r e d fo r t h is e n ti r e a r c h i t e c t u r e t o w o r k t o g e th e r a n d I m u s t s a y f o r t h e f ir s t t h r e e o r f o u r y e a r s in m y v i e w a n d t h e n I l e f t i t w a s w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r a n d t h e r e w a s m u c h m a t u r a ti o n 20 t a k i n g p la c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o w t a l k i n g a b o u t .. . [i n t e r v e n e s ] MR SHAIK: Th e 1 9 9 4 . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e N i n e ti e s , o k a y, o k a y, j a , th a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : separate f u n c ti o n s Th a n k y o u , a n d o f c o u r s e i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e of the E x e c u t iv e and Page 109 of 194 the M i n i s te r and the 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 o p e r a ti o n a l fu n c t io n s o f t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s y o u l a t e r il lu s t r a t e a n e x a m p l e o f a c la s h ? MR SHAIK: Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e r e la t io n s h ip b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a t l e a s t a n d M i n is t e r C w e le w a s s tr a i n e d , w e k n o w t h a t . W h a t w a s t h e f ir s t in d i c a t io n o f s u c h s tr a in . C h a i r w e a r e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e f o r e – I a m s o r r y a g a i n M r Pr e t o r i u s , m a y b e b e f o r e th a t l e t m e a s k th is q u e s t io n . Yo u h a v e t o l d m e h o w y o u – i n y o u r v ie w th is s i tu a ti o n s h o u ld b e i n t e r m s o f r e p o r ti n g a n d w h a t – h o w 10 it w a s o r i g in a lly a f t e r 9 4 , a n d y o u d i d s a y th e M in is t e r o f J u s t ic e w a s g iv e n t h e p o s s i b il i ty o f a d m i n i s tr a t iv e m a t t e r s i n r e l a t i o n to I n t e ll ig e n c e and not d ir e c t in g operations. Once th e r e was a M in is t e r of I n t e lli g e n c e , a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e s tr u c t u r e t h a t is n o w e v e n b e f o r e w e t a lk a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d i n r e a li ty, w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w i th t h e M i n is t e r b e in g – w i t h t h a t b e i n g a M i n i s t e r o f In t e l li g e n c e h e o r s h e m i g h t i n v o l v e d in d ir e c ti n g o p e r a ti o n s b y v i r t u e a s b e i n g t h e r e a s o p p o s e d t o th e Pr e s i d e n t o r i t w o u l d n ’ t n e c e s s a r il y m e a n t h a t h e o r s h e w o u ld b e i n v o lv e d w i t h d i r e c ti n g o p e r a ti o n s th a t c o u l d s til l b e le f t t o t h e d ir e c t o r, t o t h e h e a d , b u t i t w o u l d j u s t d e p e n d m a y b e o n th e p e r s o n , o n 20 t h e in c u m b e n t? M R S H A IK : Ye s i n th is p a r t ic u l a r c a s e I – i t i s m y e v i d e n c e th a t t h e M i n is t e r a t t e m p t e d to d ir e c t a n o p e r a t io n , w h i c h I f o u n d t o b e u n l a w fu l a n d w e w ill c o m e t o th a t a n d I w o u l d g iv e y o u e x a m p le s a n d y o u c a n lo o k a g a in a t v a r i o u s e x a m p le s , b u t le t m e j u s t g iv e y o u o n e , a n d i t is r e a l ly u n f o r t u n a te t h a t t h e e x a m p l e I w a s g o i n g t o u s e t h a t h a s b e e n Page 110 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 r a i s e d b y th e p r e v i o u s , b y t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a . F o r m e r P r e s id e n t Zu m a m a d e r e f e r e n c e to s p i e s i n h is evidence before the Commission. I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v i c e . N o w s p ie s is t h e w o r k o f t h e Yo u c a n i m a g i n e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e a D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l w h o is in c h a r g e o f th e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e a n d C o u n te r I n t e lli g e n c e a n d is n o w i n s tr u c t e d b y a M in is te r to p l e a s e p r o v i d e h i m o r h e r t h e n a m e o f s p i e s i n t h e c o u n tr y a n d t h is i s n o w g iv e n t o a M i n is t e r. Th a t M i n is t e r b e c a u s e o f c h a n g e s i n p o li t ic s le a v e s a – t h e g o v e r n m e n t s e r v ic e , d o e s th a t M in is t e r fo r g e t a b o u t w h o t h e s p i e s w e r e 10 o r n o t , o r d o t h e y r e t a i n i t i n th e ir h e a d a n d w h a t r is k d o e s t h a t p r e s e n t t o t h o s e s p i e s i n th e c o u n tr y. S o th a t i s o n e e x a m p le w h e r e i t i s v e r y d a n g e r o u s f o r a M i n is t e r to d e m a n d o p e r a t io n a l k n o w le d g e a b o u t m a t te r s , b u t t h e P r e s i d e n t , w h e n a P r e s i d e n t i s n o lo n g e r t h e P r e s i d e n t t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n p r o to c o ls t h a t g o i n t o e ffe c t to s ti ll k e e p t h a t Pr e s id e n t a s i f h e w e r e i n a p r e v i o u s , a s i f h e s ti ll w a s a P r e s i d e n t . Th is i s w h y t h e P r e s i d e n ti a l p r o t o c o ls a r e s o i n te n s e , s o e x Pr e s i d e n t M b e k i , e x P r e s i d e n t M o t l a n t h e , a ll s t ill h a v e to a c e r ta i n d e g r e e p r o te c t i o n a n d t h e u s e o f S t a t e in o r d e r to k e e p t h e m , a n d o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s is , i s 20 t h a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e in t h e i r c a p a c i ty a s P r e s i d e n ts c o m e a c r o s s v e r y s e n s i t iv e i n fo r m a ti o n o f t h e S t a te . A M i n is te r i s n o t a c c o r d e d t h a t p r o te c ti o n , a M in is t e r is n o t a c c o r d e d t h a t p r o to c o l a n d G o d f o r b i d I a m n o t s u g g e s t i n g t h a t e x M i n is t e r s o f I n t e lli g e n c e a r e g i v e n t h is k i n d o f p r o to c o l , I a m j u s t s a y in g d o n ’t a p p o in t th e m i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e C h a ir. Page 111 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: But are you therefore saying that you could have a M i n is t e r o f I n t e l li g e n c e w i th o u t n e c e s s a r ily i m p ly in g t h a t h e o r s h e w o u ld d i r e c t o p e r a t io n s ? MR SHAIK: Correct, you could. CHAIRPERSON: J a , s o i n p r in c i p l e y o u c o u l d h a v e t h e M i n is te r . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] MR SHAIK: I n p r i n c ip a l y o u c o u l d y e s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h e n i t c o m e s to o p e r a t io n a l m a t te r s h e o r s h e c o u l d n o t b e in v o lv e d t h e r e . 10 MR SHAIK: T h a t is c o r r e c t , a n d t h a t i s w h y I w o u ld a r g u e s ir th a t it is a m e m b e r o f c a b i n e t , n o t a m e m b e r to c a b i n e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR SHAIK: I f y o u g e t t h a t s u b tl e d is t in c ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Yo u w e r e g o i n g t o t e ll t h e C h a ir o f t h e fir s t i n c id e n t w h ic h t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f a n d o t h e r s a n d th e M in is t e r, paragraph 14. MR SHAIK: I n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr P r e t o r i u s w e a r e t a k i n g l o n g o n t h i s b u t I t h i n k i t is 20 v e r y i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g , y o u k n o w I c e r t a i n l y a p p r e c i a te a l l t h e e x p la n a ti o n s th a t I a m g e tt i n g in t e r m s o f i n t e l li g e n c e . ADV PRETORIUS: Ye s , i f I m a y j u s t s a y C h a ir th e r e is a s u b s t a n t ia l a m o u n t o f e v i d e n c e to b e g iv e n a n d t h i s b a c k g r o u n d is v e r y i m p o r t a n t in o r d e r t o e v a l u a t e t h a t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t e v i d e n c e j a . Page 112 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : I m e a n i t is e s s e n ti a l . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR SHAIK: C h a ir y o u w o u l d r e c a ll th a t i n 2 0 0 9 t h e – d u r in g 2 0 0 9 t h e r e w a s th e M i n i s te r C w e l e ’s w i f e w a s s u b j e c t t o a d r u g tr a ff ic k i n g o ffe n c e a n d t h is m a t te r r e l a t e d to th e k i n d o f p r o te c t i o n o r t h e k in d o f s e r v ic e s t h a t th e S S A a n d p a r t ic u l a r l y t h e d o m e s ti c b r a n c h o f t h e S S A w a s g iv in g t o Ms C w e l e . W e d is c u s s e d t h is m a t t e r a n d in p a r ti c u la r i t w a s a l e v e l o f d is c o m f o r t f o r D i r e c t o r N j e n j e a n d h e r a is e d t h is m a t te r w i t h t h e D G M a q e t u k a a n d m y s e l f a n d w e h a d a f o r u m o f m e e t in g s 10 w h e r e w e a ll t h r e e w o u ld d e c i d e o n a p a r ti c u la r w a y a n d a d is s e n ti o n w o u ld m e a n w e k e e p d e b a ti n g u n ti l w e h a v e c o n s e n s u s . W e d is c u s s e d t h is m a t t e r, w e d e b a t e d i t t h r o u g h a ll e n d s a n d c o n c l u d e d t h a t w e , t h e S S A , a g a in u n d e r t h e le a d e r s h i p o f A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a w i ll in f o r m t h e Mi n is t e r t h a t w e w i ll n o lo n g e r b e p r o v i d i n g t h e s e p r o t e c ti o n s e r v ic e s t o M s C w e le , t h e M i n is t e r ’s w i f e . Of course t h is d i d c r e a te . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: J u s t a r ti c u l a te w h a t t h e f o r m o f t h e f o r m o f t h e p r o t e c t io n w a s , m a y b e I m is s e d th a t , j u s t – I k n o w I t h i n k i t ’s in y o u r s t a te m e n t . 20 MR SHAIK: I a m a l s o m i n d fu l s ir o f n o t g iv i n g t h e e v id e n c e o f m y colleagues, who are here. CHAIRPERSON: Oh please, please, remember I am not – so where we a s k y o u q u e s ti o n s th a t m i g h t c o m p r o m i s e t h o s e t h in g s p le a s e ju s t remind me. MR SHAIK: O k a y. Page 113 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: W e a r e n o t to o u s e d t o t h o s e t h i n g s b u t t o o u s e d to tr a n s p a r e n c y s o i f e v e r I a s k y o u a n y t h i n g q u e s t io n a n d y o u f e e l th a t i t m i g h t r e q u ir e y o u to g i v e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t y o u s h o u ld n ’t g iv e b e c a u s e o f t h e – b e c a u s e it b e lo n g s t o I n te ll ig e n c e p l e a s e fe e l fr e e t o l e t m e k n o w, s o i f y o u – i f i t is n o t s o m e th in g y o u c a n i n d ic a te , I w a s j u s t t h i n k in g m a y b e p o li c e o ffi c e r s w h o – a n d s o o n , b u t I l e a v e i t to y o u to . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] MR SHAIK: N o w e a r e n o t fa r o ff, m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s t h a t t h e d o m e s ti c b r a n c h o f t h e S t a te S e c u r i t y A g e n c y p r o v i d e d a k i n d o f 10 lo g i s t ic a l s u p p o r t in t e r m s o f t r a n s p o r ti n g M s C w e l e fr o m t h e h o m e to t h e c o u r t , f r o m t h e c o u r t b a c k h o m e , a n d a ll o f th e s e t h i n g s i n c u r e x p e n s e a n d t h a t e x p e n s e h a s t o a c c r u e t o a p a r ti c u la r o p e r a ti o n a n d D ir e c t o r Njenje had to s ig n o ff on it. I think it is h is u n c o m f o r t a b l e n e s s a b o u t c o n t in u a l ly s i g n in g o ff t h e s e m a t te r s m a d e h i m t o i n i t ia t e t h e d is c u s s i o n a m o n g s t t h e t h r e e o f u s w i th a ll t h r e e o f u s a g r e e i n g t o – t h a t t h i s s e r v ic e s h o u l d b e t e r m i n a t e d . O f c o u r s e t h e s e c o n d a n d r e l a te d is s u e i s th a t w e w e r e m a n a g e m e n t , t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t o f I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v i c e p r o v i d i n g s e r v ic e s t o a p e r s o n w h o w a s c o n v ic t e d f o r d r u g tr a ffi c k i n g o ffe n c e s 20 a n d th is is n o t .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h is i s n o w p o s t th e c o n v ic t i o n ? MR SHAIK: Th is i s – n o d u r i n g th e tr i a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h d u r i n g t h e tr i a l . MR SHAIK: D u r i n g th e tr i a l . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 114 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A IK : A n d w i t h t h e p r e s u m p ti o n o f i n n o c e n c e i t w a s c r e a t in g a s e n s e o f a w k w a r d n e s s to u s in t h e s e n s e o f o u r o w n m o r a li ty s o t o s p e a k , s o t h i s d is c u s s i o n h a d to h a p p e n w i t h t h e M i n is t e r a n d D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l M a q e t u k a l e d t h a t d i s c u s s io n , s u p p o r t e d b y D ir e c to r N je n je . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u m a y c o n ti n u e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Mr S h a ik i n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 y o u d e a l w i th c e r t a i n c h a n g e s m a d e to th e c a b in e t b y f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a a r o u n d – i n a n d around October 2010. MR SHAIK: 10 Th a t i s c o r r e c t. CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y a g a i n Mr P r e t o r i u s . What you have not s a i d , a n d I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r th a t ’s b e c a u s e o f a n y t h i n g c o n n e c t e d w i t h I n t e ll ig e n c e , w h a t y o u h a v e n ’t s a i d is w h a t w a s t h e r e s p o n s e o f M r C w e le t o t h e n e w s t h a t y o u h a d d e c i d e d t o te r m in a t e th is s u p p o r t . I s that something you can say? MR SHAIK: Th a t c o n v e r s a t i o n , I d o n o t h a v e t h a t d ir e c t i n fo r m a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y o n e o f t h e o t h e r w it n e s s e s m i g h t h a v e . MR SHAIK: I a m s u r e th a t i t i s c o m i n g v i a M a q e t u k a a n d G i b s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : 20 Yo u r e f e r i n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t M r S h a i k to a c a b i n e t r e s h u ff le i n a n d a r o u n d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 0 a t t h e h a n d s o f the former President Zuma. MR SHAIK: Th a t i s c o r r e c t. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th e r e is o n e p a r t ic u l a r a p p o in t m e n t t h e r e t h a t i s r e l e v a n t t o o u r e v id e n c e , w h a t w a s th a t ? MR SHAIK: T h a t w a s t h e – I m e a n I w a s s a d d e n e d b y th e r e p l a c e m e n t Page 115 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 b y M in is t e r S i p h i w e N y a n d a b y M r P a d a y a c h i e b u t t h a t ju s t s a d d e n e d m e b u t th e o n e th a t c o n c e r n e d m e is t h e r e p l a c e o f Fi k i le o r th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M in is t e r Fi k i le M b a l u la . A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e r e w a s a p r e s s r e p o r t to w h ic h y o u r e fe r in p a r a g r a p h 1 6 i n r e la t io n t o t h e a p p o in t m e n t , w h a t w a s th a t ? MR SHAIK: S o s o m e t i m e i n 2 0 11 w a s a p r e s s r e p o r t t h a t d e a l t w i t h a n N E C m e e t i n g o f t h e A N C in w h ic h i t w a s a l l e g e d in t h a t r e p o r t t h a t M i n is t e r M b a l u la r a i s e d h i s a p p o in t m e n t o r b e e n i n f o r m e d a b o u t h is a p p o i n t m e n ts b y th e G u p t a s b e i n g c a ll e d a n d i n f o r m e d a b o u t th a t 10 a p p o i n t m e n t, a n d w e h a d a g a i n u n d e r th e le a d e r s h i p o f A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a w e e s t a b li s h e d w h a t w e c a ll t h e M o n d a y m o r n in g f o r u m w i th t h e t h r e e o f u s u n d e r h i s l e a d e r s h ip , M a q e t u k a , G i b s o n a n d I w o u l d m e e t e v e r y M o n d a y m o r n i n g t o d is c u s s t h i n g s t h a t o c c u r r e d i n t h e w e e k e n d o r in t h e p a s t w e e k a n d it w a s a b r a i n s t o r m i n g s e s s i o n b e t w e e n th e t h r e e o f u s , a n d t h e m i d d a y w e w o u l d i n v i t e o u r d e p u ti e s f o r l u n c h a n d o t h e r s a n d h a v e a k i n d o f m a n a g e m e n t m e e ti n g th a t w i ll e n d s o m e ti m e o f t e n la t e i n to t h e n i g h t , a n d th is i s t h e w a y w e o p e r a t e d . S o o n t h is p a r tic u la r, th is w a s a S u n d a y, o n t h e M o n d a y w e m e t a n d w e d is c u s s e d t h i s r e p o r t a n d w e w e r e t a k e n a b a c k b y t h e 20 is s u e s t h a t w e r e i n th a t r e p o r t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : W a s t h e d e c i s i o n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e m a t t e r s t h a t o u g h t t o b e in v e s t i g a t e d , I w i ll a s k y o u . . . [i n d is ti n c t – m ic o ff] M R S H A IK : S o a s y o u w ill r e c a l l s i r t h a t w h a t w a s a l le g e d i n th a t r e p o r t t h a t th e r e w a s a n N E C m e e ti n g , a n d i n th is m e e ti n g M i n i s te r M b a l u la r a is e d th e p o i n t t h a t h is a p p o in t m e n t , h e w a s n o ti f ie d o f h i s Page 116 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a p p o i n t m e n t b y o n e o f th e G u p ta b r o t h e r s b u t g e n e r a lly f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f t h i s d is c u s s i o n t h e G u p t a B r o t h e r s . O u r c o n c e r n w a s ( a ) th is is e i th e r a b r e a c h o f n a t io n a l s e c u r i ty o c c u r r i n g i n t h e o ff ic e o f t h e P r e s id e n t, s o t h e r e w a s a l e a k fr o m t h e O ff ic e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t , tw o , t h is is p o s s ib l e b e c a u s e t h e G u p t a s o v e r h e a r d th is d is c u s s io n w h il e th e P r e s i d e n t w a s i n c o n s u l ta t io n w i t h s o m e o n e a n d t h e y o b t a i n e d th is i n f o r m a ti o n a n d w e r e n o w p e d d l in g t h is in f o r m a ti o n fo r w h a t e v e r b e n e fi t th e y w a n t e d , o r th ir d l y t h a t t h e y i n fa c t a c t u a ll y s u g g e s t e d t h is a p p o i n t m e n t w h ic h m a k e s t h i s e v e n m o r e 10 s e r io u s b e c a u s e t h e n a s f o r e i g n n a t io n a ls t h e y a r e s u g g e s ti n g w h o s h o u l d b e i n th e N a t io n a l C a b in e t o f a n o t h e r c o u n tr y. A ll t h r e e o f t h e s e m a t t e r s fa ll i n th e r e a l m o f N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty b y m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g . A l e a k u p o n th e P r e s id e n t’s O ffic e , i n f o r m a ti o n p e d d l in g i f t h e y h a v e o v e r h e a r d t h is i n f o r m a ti o n a n d t h r e e i f t h e y s u g g e s t e d th e n a m e a n d th is is a m a t t e r o f c o u n t e r - i n t e ll ig e n c e w h e r e a f o r e i g n n a ti o n a l is i n fl u e n c i n g th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f c a b i n e t m i n is t e r s o f a n o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t , a l l t h r e e is s u e s n e e d e d t o b e i n v e s t ig a t e d . A D V P R E TO R I U S : D i d y o u d i s c u s s t h e in t e n d e d a p p r o a c h w i th a n y o n e e ls e , fo r e x a m p le y o u r D e p u ty D ir e c t o r s G e n e r a l ? 20 MR SHAIK: Ye s , s o fo ll o w i n g t h e – f o l lo w i n g o u r m o r n i n g m e e t i n g w e h a d lu n c h w i t h o u r D e p u ty D ir e c to r G e n e r a l s a n d o t h e r s a n d w e in f o r m e d t h e m o f o u r d e c is i o n t h a t a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n in t o t h e G u p t a ’s s h o u l d n o w o c c u r b a s e d o n th e r a ti o n a l e t h a t w e h a v e g i v e n , a n d I m u s t s a y th a t a n I n t e ll ig e n c e in v e s t i g a t io n is a n I n t e ll i g e n c e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . I t w i ll in v o lv e d te c h n o l o g ic a l i n te ll i g e n c e , i t w i ll i n v o lv e s u r v e il l a n c e , i t Page 117 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 w i ll p e n e t r a t io n , i t w ill in v o lv e h a v in g a fu ll u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e w h o l e p ic t u r e t o a n s w e r t h o s e t h r e e q u e s ti o n s p r i m a r i ly b e c a u s e i t p e r ta i n s t o n a t io n a l s e c u r i ty a n d a b r e a c h a t th e h i g h e s t l e v e l o f th e g o v e r n m e n t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Th e r e w a s a r e l a t e d is s u e p e r t a i n i n g t o th e in v e s t i g a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r i u s , w e ll t o t h o s e w h o a r e n o t c lo s e t o I n t e ll ig e n c e a n d S e c r e t S e r v ic e s , t h o s e o f u s w h o a r e n o t c lo s e t o th o s e , t o I n te ll ig e n c e it m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n a s a p p a r e n t a s i t n o w s e e m s t o m e a n d o th e r s w h o a r e l is t e n in g t o y o u r e v i d e n c e w h a t t h is 10 c o u l d m e a n i f i t m e a n t t h a t t h e G u p t a Br o t h e r s o r o n e o f t h e m w a s a b l e t o o v e r h e a r s e n s i tiv e i n f o r m a t io n e m a n a ti n g fr o m s o m e b o d y i n th e Presidency or from the President, because today it might have been a b o u t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f s o a n d s o a s a M i n is t e r b u t t o m o r r o w i t m ig h t h a v e b e e n in f o r m a t io n a b o u t s o m e th in g t h a t r e a lly g o e s to t h e s e c u r i ty o f t h e c o u n tr y. MR SHAIK: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o i t w a s q u i te s o m e t h in g , q u i te s e r i o u s e v e n fr o m t h a t a n g l e le a v in g o u t t h e o th e r s ? MR SHAIK: 20 I t i s v e r y s e r io u s s ir, i f – a n d l e t m e t e ll y o u o f th e th r e e s c e n a r i o s t h e o v e r h e a r in g th e d is c u s s i o n i s t h e l e a s t o f th e d a n g e r o u s o n e s , r i g h t , b e c a u s e if t h e y h a v e o v e r h e a r d i t a n d i f w e h a v e in v e s t i g a t e d a n d w e r e a l lo w e d to i n v e s t ig a te t h is w e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b l e to m a k e c e r t a i n r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s a s I n te ll ig e n c e n o r m a l ly d o , w e w i ll m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s in t e r m s o f h o w t o a v o id t h is s i tu a ti o n i n f u t u r e , s o th a t d i d n ’ t h a p p e n , b u t th e s e c o n d o p t io n , t h e o p t i o n t h a t i f Page 118 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o c c u r r e d a t th e s u g g e s t io n o f t h e G u p ta ’s a n d t h a t is a s ig n if ic a n tly serious m a t te r because it meant that t h e r e ’s real p o s s i b il it y t h a t a f o r e i g n g o v e r n m e n t w a s m a k i n g a p p o i n t m e n ts . CHAIRPERSON: Hmm, hm m, hmm, no I think that scenario is the one t h a t h a s b e e n d e a l t w it h q u i te e x t e n s i v e ly i n t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n . MR SHAIK: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Of course the – any President who gets an in a p p r o p r ia t e s u g g e s t io n lik e t h a t w o u l d r e s p o n d in t h e o n ly w a y t h a t is a p p r o p r i a t e f o r t h i s s i t u a t io n b u t o f c o u r s e y o u c o u l d h a v e v a r io u s 10 p e o p l e y o u k n o w w h o m a y in n o c u o u s ly a t o n e s t a g e o r a n o th e r s a y t o t h e P r e s i d e n t y o u k n o w w h a t Mr S h a i k w o u ld b e g o o d fo r t h e p o l ic e y o u k n o w, y o u k n o w m a y b e n e x t t i m e y o u t h i n k a b o u t r e s h u ffl in g t h e C a b in e t t h i n k a b o u t h i m , y o u k n o w, h e r e i s h is tr a c k r e c o r d , a s l o n g a s t h e P r e s i d e n t d o e s n ’t f e e l b o u n d t o d o th a t I w o u ld i m a g i n e t h a t t h a t ’s n o t a p r o b l e m , is th a t r i g h t? MR SHAIK: in our C o r r e c t , t h a t’s a b s o lu t e l y c o r r e c t a n d in f a c t it d o e s o c c u r m e d ia where e d it o r s or j o u r n a l is ts would make certain s u g g e s t io n s t h a t i n o r d e r t o fix t h i s a n d t h is d e p a r t m e n t u p a p p o in t s o a n d s o t o th a t d e p a r t m e n t , a n d t h a t is c o n s id e r e d d e m o c r a t ic l o b b y i n g , 20 w h ic h i s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly a c o u n te r i n te ll i g e n c e m a t t e r, b u t i t is d o n e o p e n l y, i t i s d o n e tr a n s p a r e n t ly a n d i t is d o n e – a ls o i t m a y e v e n h a p p e n b e h in d c lo s e d d o o r s , t h a t t o o is n o t a p r o b l e m . T h e p r o b le m h e r e i n m y o p i n i o n w a s th e f a c t t h a t th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e m a k i n g th is s u g g e s t i o n , if t h e y i n d e e d m a d e t h is s u g g e s ti o n , f o u n d i t n e c e s s a r y t o i n f o r m t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s a p p o in t e d b e f o r e h e Page 119 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 w a s a p p o i n t e d th a t h e w a s g o i n g t o b e a p p o in t e d , s o t h e b e n e fi t w a s n o t a c o n tr ib u ti o n t o w a r d s g o o d g o v e r n a n c e , t h e b e n e f i t w a s t o demonstrate that they had knowledge of the appointment before the appointment occurs. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h a t ’s q u i te i m p o r t a n t, b u t m a y b e y o u r – y o u u s e in y o u r e v i d e n c e t h e w o r d s u g g e s ti o n , m a y b e i t s h o u l d b e s o m e t h i n g m u c h m o r e t h a n s u g g e s ti o n b e c a u s e a s u g g e s t io n i m p l i e s th a t it ’s j u s t an idea you know but maybe if it became something more than a s u g g e s t io n m a y b e e v e n a n i n s tr u c t io n y o u k n o w th a t m a y b e th a t ’s 10 w h e r e th e p r o b le m b e c o m e s e v e n .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: .. . m o r e d i ff ic u l t b e c a u s e m y f r i e n d s m i g h t m a k e s u g g e s t io n s a b o u t c e r t a i n t h i n g s in my c o m p a n y o r i n m y d e p a r t m e n t a s m i n is t e r b u t y o u k n o w a s l o n g a s th e y a r e ju s t s u g g e s t io n s a n d n o t h i n g m o r e I d o n ’ t f e e l b o u n d a n d t h o s e p e o p le d o n ’ t th in k t h a t t h e y c a n d ic t a t e t o m e w h a t I d o t h a t m i g h t b e f i n e . The problem might be w h e r e th e s u g g e s t io n i s n o l o n g e r a s u g g e s ti o n , i t is a n in s tr u c ti o n o r w h e r e t h e P r e s i d e n t , w h o e v e r i t m a y b e i n t h a t s i tu a ti o n m a y f e e l b o u n d t o g iv e e ff e c t to t h e s u g g e s t i o n b e c a u s e o f w h a t e v e r. 20 MR SHAIK: Correct yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t p a r t o f th e i m p o r t a n c e o f w h a t y o u s a y a b o u t w h a t y o u t h i n k t h e r a ti o n a l e m u s t h a v e b e e n f o r t h e m t o t h e n g o t o t h e p e r s o n t o b e a p p o i n te d to d e m o n s tr a t e th a t th e y h a d t h e k n o w l e d g e . MR SHAIK: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M a y w e ll li n k w i th w h a t M r R a m a t h l o d i s a i d i n t h is Page 120 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C o m m i s s i o n w h e n h e g a v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t, a n d e x p r e s s e d h is v ie w s a b o u t t h e W a t e r k lo o f la n d i n g b e c a u s e , a n d I r e m e m b e r i t b e c a u s e l a s t w e e k I d e a l t w it h w h e n M i n i s t e r N k o a n a - M a s h a b a n e w a s h e r e w a s t h a t h e w a s s a y in g th a t l a n d i n g a s f a r a s h e w a s c o n c e r n e d w a s n ’ t ju s t a la n d i n g o f t h a t a ir c r a f t, i t w a s th e G u p t a fa m i ly s h o w i n g t h e w h o le c o u n tr y a n d th e w o r l d t h a t t h e y m i g h t n o t b e P r e s i d e n t b u t t h e y la n d w h e r e P r e s i d e n t s la n d , i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e y w e r e in c h a r g e . I h o p e I a m n o t m is r e p r e s e n t i n g b u t t h a t’s h o w I u n d e r s t o o d M r R a m a t h l o d i ’s e v i d e n c e to b e t o s a y t h e y w e r e t e l li n g e v e r y b o d y w e a r e i n c h a r g e , s o 10 w h e n y o u th e n s a y if t h e y g e t k n o w l e d g e b y w h a t e v e r m e a n s t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t i n t e n d s t o a p p o in t s o a n d s o a s M in is t e r a n d t h e n t h e y g o to t h a t p e r s o n to s h a r e t h a t in f o r m a t io n i t m a y b e th a t y o u a r e r i g h t t h a t t h e m o t iv e is a v e r y w r o n g o n e . MR SHAIK: Ye s , s ir i n t e ll i g e n c e w e m a k e u s e o f t h e w o r d c a l le d c r e a te d d e p e n d e n c i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ’s t h e w o r d ? MR SHAIK: C r e a te d d e p e n d e n c i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A IK : 20 I a m a b s o l u t e ly c o n v i n c e d t h a t t h e n e e d f o r th e G u p t a b r o t h e r s to t e ll M i n i s t e r Fi k i le M b a l u l a t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o b e t h e M i n is t e r o f S p o r t w a s t o d e t e r m i n e a c r e a t e d d e p e n d e n c y. T h a t c r a t e d d e p e n d e n c y w a s t o e x t r a c t v a l u e fr o m h i m b e in g t h e M i n is t e r o f S p o r t a n d o f c o u r s e i f o n e l o o k s a t t h e b u s in e s s i n v e s t m e n t o f t h e G u p t a ’s t h e r e w e r e i n c r ic k e t , i n s p o r t s ta d iu m s . S o t h e b e n e fi t w a s t o e x tr a c t value. I f h e w a s m a d e t h e M i n is t e r o f Wa t e r y o u k n o w w e l l I d o n o t Page 121 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 know but you know they are – if he was m ade the Minister of Water I do n o t th i n k t h e y w o u l d h a v e i n f o r m e d h i m . T h e P o r t fo li o o f s p o r t is related they to t h e ir business in t e r e s t and needed to create d e p e n d e n c y o f h i m o n t o th e m s o t h a t w h e n th e y d o c o m e b a c k o n th e v a l u e th a t h e w o u l d fe l t o b li g e d t o r e s p o n d b e c a u s e o f th e c r e a t e d d e p e n d e n c y a n d p l e a s e d o n o t g e t m e w r o n g S ir I a m n o t s a y i n g t h a t i t happened. I a m s a y i n g th e m e c h a n is m b y w h ic h w e fr o m I n te ll ig e n c e w o u ld h a v e s e e n i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll th a t is q u i te i m p o r t a n t b u t I a m l o o k i n g a t o t h e r 10 e v i d e n c e a n d t h a t p a r t o f t h e – w h a t I h a v e g o t t o d o is n o t lo o k a t e v i d e n c e in i s o la t i o n . I h a v e g o t t o lo o k a t a l l t h e e v id e n c e a n d w h e r e t h e r e a r e l in k s . Yo u k n o w – l in k – li n k t h e m . I h a v e h e a r d e v id e n c e w h e r e – o f c o u r s e I m e a n th e p u b l ic k n o w s a b o u t t h e e v id e n c e o f Mr J o n a s w h ic h w a s to th e e ff e c t t h a t h e w a s t a k e n t o a m e e ti n g a t t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e a n d t h a t t h e – M r D u d u z a n e Zu m a w a s t h e r e w h e n a G u p t a b r o th e r, o n e o f t h e G u p t a b r o th e r s s a i d t h e y w a n t e d t o m a k e h i m M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e a n d s a i d M i n i s t e r N e n e w o u ld b e – w o u l d b e d r o p p e d f r o m c a b i n e t o r d is m is s e d w h a t e v e r t h e t e r m w a s th a t t h e y u s e d a n d t h a t h e w a s – t h e y w a n t e d h i m t o b e t h e n e w M i n is te r. A n d i t 20 s e e m s th a t y o u w o u ld b e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e s a m e t h i n g to s a y m a y b e t h e y w a n te d – i f h e a c c e p te d t h e y w a n te d to m a k e s u r e t h a t w h e n h e b e c a m e M i n is te r o f Fi n a n c e h e w o u l d r e m e m b e r th a t … M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y m a d e h i m M i n is te r o f F i n a n c e . MR SHAIK: Correct. Page 122 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e r e f o r e h e w o u l d f e e l s o m e l o y a lt y t o w a r d s them. M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e r e w o u l d b e s o m e d e p e n d e n c e b e c a u s e i f th e y m a d e h i m M i n i s te r t h e y c o u l d u n m a k e h i m M i n is t e r. T h e y c o u ld h a v e h i m d is m is s e d . MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: S o – s o o n e h a s th a t a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e y o u h a v e o th e r s i t u a t io n s w h e r e s o m e b o d y w h o is in a c e r ta in p o s i ti o n lik e M r 10 S a lo o j e e o f D e n e l a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e w a s b r o u g h t I t h i n k b y Mr E s s a I a m n o t s u r e t o a m e e t in g I t h i n k a t t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e a n d a t o n e o f t h e m e e t in g s M i n is t e r G ig a b a w h o w a s M i n is t e r o f P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s I t h i n k w a s th e r e . He was brought at the time but according to the e v i d e n c e n o t m u c h h a p p e n e d b u t a p p a r e n tl y h e d i d s a y s o m e t h i n g lik e I h o p e y o u p e o p l e c a n w o r k w e ll , o r s o m e t h i n g l ik e th a t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. B u t a ls o y o u h a v e a n o c c a s io n w h e n M r S a lo o j e e w a s b r o u g h t i n t o a m e e ti n g a t t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e a n d M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a w a s – w a s p r e s e n t b u t t h e r e is n o t m u c h a c c o r d in g t o t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t h e s a id b u t h e w a s p r e s e n t . 20 MR SHAIK: Ys. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n y o u h a v e Mr D u k w a n a f o r m e r M E C i n th e Fr e e S t a te G o v e r n m e n t w h o w a s t a k e n t o th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e a n d according to him at least on one of the occasions Mr Duduzane Zuma w a s t h e r e b u t n o t m u c h – h e d id n o t s a y m u c h t h e r e . S o o n e d o e s n o t k n o w w h e t h e r e v e n th e p r e s e n c e o f M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a a t s o m e o f Page 123 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h e s e m e e t i n g s w h e r e c e r ta i n p e o p l e a r e b r o u g h t in w a s m e a n t t o c o n v e y t h e m e s s a g e – a c e r t a i n m e s s a g e t o th e p e o p l e . S o I w a s ju s t m e n ti o n i n g . MR SHAIK: I understand. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e I th o u g h t w h a t y o u s a i d m i g h t b e li n k e d to those – to those scenarios. MR SHAIK: Thank you. A D V P R E TO R I U S : P e r h a p s C h a i r Mr S h a i k w a s b e i n g p o li t e in t h e w a y h e e x p r e s s e d h is v i e w s e a r l ie r o n . B u t I a m s u r e y o u h a v e d is a b u s e d 10 h i m o f th e n e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : M r S h a ik t h e r e w a s a n o th e r r e a s o n f o r th e in v e s t i g a t io n w h i c h y o u r e l a t e i n p a r a g r a p h s 2 0 a n d 2 1 . P l e a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h a t ? MR SHAIK: C h a i r y o u w i ll r e c a ll t h a t a t t h e p a r ti c u l a r ti m e i n – in m u l til a t e r a l a ffa ir s t h e U S a d m i n is tr a t i o n u n d e r t h e n P r e s i d e n t B a r a k O b a m a w a s e n g a g i n g w i t h n e g o ti a ti o n s i n r e s p e c t o f Ir a n to l i ft th e s a n c ti o n s t h a t w a s i n p l a c e o n I r a n b e c a u s e o f t h e a t te m p t s w i t h th e Ir a n i a n g o v e r n m e n t to b u il d it s n u c l e a r f a c ili t ie s o u t s i d e o f t h e 20 r e g u la t o r y p r o c e e d in g s . I w a s a p p r o a c h e d … CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Shaik. J u s t t o c l o s e o ff t h e i s s u e r e l a ti n g t o t h e n e w s p a p e r a r t ic l e . M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i c h t a l k e d a b o u t Mr M b a l u la h a v i n g b e e n i n fo r m e d o f h is p e n d i n g a p p o i n t m e n t b y t h e G u p t a b r o th e r s . Page 124 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u h a v e n o t t o l d m e – y o u s a i d y o u d e c i d e d t o in v e s t i g a t e b u t y o u h a v e n o t t o l d m e a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d . Is th a t b e c a u s e i t is a s e n s i tiv e – i t is a n in t e l li g e n c e m a tt e r b e c a u s e o th e r w i s e w e l a w y e r s w a n t t o c lo s e a l l g a p s . w h o le s to r y We want to hear the S o I s a y s o m e b o d y r e a d in g t h e t r a n s c r i p t w o u ld s a y, h e s a i d t h e y i n v e s t ig a t e d , t h e d e c id e d to in v e s ti g a te a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d and nobody asked what happened? MR SHAIK: 10 S i r t h e – y o u w il l r e c a ll t h a t a f t e r o u r M o n d a y m o r n in g f o r e i g n m e e ti n g s w e h a d lu n c h w i t h o u r D e p u t y D ir e c to r G e n e r a ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : W e a g r e e d o n t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n . I t w a s s u p p o r t e d b y o u r D ir e c t o r – D e p u ty D ir e c to r G e n e r a l s a n d r e l a te d t o t h a t i n v e s ti g a t i o n is a n o t h e r a s p e c t w h ic h – w h ic h I a m … C H A I R P E R S O N : To w h ic h y o u w ill c o m e . M R S H A I K : Ye s c o r r e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o a t s o m e s t a g e y o u w ill b e a b l e t o e it h e r t e ll m e w h a t h a p p e n e d t o th a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n . MR SHAIK: Correct. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O r to t e l l m e . M R S H A I K : Ye s C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r c e r t a in in t e l li g e n c e r e a s o n s . MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o t e ll m e . MR SHAIK: Correct. Page 125 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : O r to t e l l y o u w h a t d i d n o t h a p p e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A IK : Ambassador S o i n r e l a ti o n I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y t h e t h e n U S s ta t io n e d in Pr e to r i a that the s t a te department is c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th e p o s s i b le f u n d in g o f S h iv a U r a n i u m w h ic h is a G u p t a o w n e d m i n e a n d th e y h a d r e a s o n t o b e l ie v e t h a t s u c h f i n a n c in g m a y b e c o m i n g fr o m I r a n . A n d th e y a r e c o n c e r n e d . T h i s is – w h e n I say they I mean the United States is concerned because it is a very s e n s i t iv e t i m e i n th e n e g o t i a t i o n s w it h I r a n i n r e g a r d t o t h e – th e 10 d is c u s s io n s a b o u t li f ti n g o f t h e s a n c t io n s a n d c o m i n g u p w i th a n e w a p p r o a c h to Ir a n a n d i f t h i s i s t h e c a s e th e n t h e y d i d n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t o in t e r p r e t t h i s a s Ir a n g o i n g r o g u e o r w h a t – w h a t is th e s i t u a ti o n a n d c o u l d w e d e t e r m i n e w h e th e r I r a n ia n f u n d i n g i s i n f a c t b e h i n d S h i v a Uranium? A D V P R E TO R I U S : W h a t w e r e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s f o r S o u t h A f r ic a b e if t h is s c e n a r io w e r e c o r r e c t ? MR SHAIK: T h e c o n s e q u e n c e fo r S o u t h A fr ic a w o u l d h a v e b e e n enormous. 1 . W e w o u l d h a v e b e e n s e e n t o b e g o i n g r o g u e in v i o l a ti o n o f 20 m u l ti n a t io n a l m u l t il a te r a l a g r e e m e n ts a n d s u c h v io la t io n s w o u ld have consequences. A n d o f c o u r s e i t w o u ld b e a n e n o r m o u s fi n a n c i a l c o n s e q u e n c e t o t h e c o u n tr y i f s a n c ti o n s w e r e t h e n b y n e c e s s a r i ly e x t e n d e d t o S o u t h A fr i c a . S o i t w a s a n o th e r a s p e c t o f i n te ll ig e n c e t h a t n e e d e d t o b e d e a l t w i t h . A n d t h i s is a v e r y g o o d e x a m p l e o f h o w i n t e lli g e n c e s e r v i c e s w o r k . Page 126 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A l th o u g h i n t h i s c a s e th e a p p r o a c h w a s f r o m th e s ta t e d e p a r t m e n t t o m e v ia t h e A m b a s s a d o r a n d – a n d i n m y e v id e n c e I a l s o p o i n t a n d I a m s u r e i t i s g o i n g to b e l e d b y D ir e c t o r N g a n g e t h a t t h e y t o o w e r e a p p r o a c h e d d ir e c tl y b y t h e A m e r ic a n I n te ll ig e n c e t o – to d e t e r m i n e t h e s o u r c e o f t h is f u n d in g o n t h e U r a n i u m m i n e s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Right. Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 2 1 t h a t y o u d i d d is c u s s th is c o n c e r n w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h e ti m e ? MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d y o u w e r e g iv e n c e r t a i n r e a s s u r a n c e s ? 10 MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : To t h e e ff e c t o f … MR SHAIK: The – I was… M R S H A IK : T h a t th e – th a t t h e Ir a n i a n s a r e n o t b e h in d S h i v a U r a n iu m funding. A D V P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t s o a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t . CHAIRPERSON: I am… A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e d e c i s i o n w a s m a d e f o r m o r e t h a n o n e r e a s o n to c o n d u c t a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n ? MR SHAIK: That is correct. 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 2 3 th a t s h o r t ly a f te r th is d e c is i o n w a s m a d e c e r t a i n t h i n g s h a p p e n e d . W h a t h a p p e n e d ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . T h e – I – I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h e th e r i t h a p p e n e d o n t h e s a m e d a y o r t h e d a y a f te r b u t a fe w d a y s a ft e r t h a t m e e ti n g t h a t w e t o o k to i n v e s t ig a t e t h e G u p t a f a m ily M r M a q e t u k a i n fo r m e d b o t h M s N g a n g e a n d I th a t w e a r e r e q u ir e d to f ly u r g e n tl y to C a p e To w n w h e r e Page 127 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h e M in is t e r h a s s u m m o n e d a m e e t in g o f u s i n C a p e To w n . S o w e fl e w t o C a p e To w n t h a t e v e n i n g a n d w e a r r iv e d t h e r e a t n i g h t fo r a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e M in is t e r. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . B e f o r e y o u g e t t o th e c o n te n ts o f t h e m e e t in g M r S h a ik t h e r e a r e t w o is s u e s t h a t p e r h a p s y o u s h o u l d i n f o r m t h e C h a ir o f. T h e fi r s t i s h o w fr e q u e n t ly w o u ld a M i n is t e r t a k e s t e p s t o c a ll t o a c c o u n t o p e r a ti o n a l e x e c u t iv e s in o p e r a t io n a l m a t te r s ? W a s t h is a common occurrence? M R S H A I K : W e ll t h is is t h e f ir s t th a t i t h a s h a p p e n e d to m e b u t d u r i n g 10 t h e p e r i o d i n w h ic h I w a s th e H e a d o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e o r t h e Fo r e ig n B r a n c h o f t h e S S A I w a s n e v e r c a l le d t o e x p l a in a n o p e r a t io n . S o t h is t h e f ir s t o p e r a t i o n th a t M i n i s te r C w e l e d e e m e d i t n e c e s s a r y f o r m e o r for us to come explain. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d t h e s e c o n d p o i n t i s , CHAIRPERSON: N o w w h ic h y e a r w a s t h is ? I do not think your s t a te m e n t s p e c i f ie s . M R S H A I K : I t i s 2 0 11 . CHAIRPERSON: 2 0 11 ? O k a y. Yo u w o u l d n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t m o n th a n d s o o n o r [i n d is t in c t ] . 20 M R S H A I K : O h I th i n k th e s e a r e n o w in t h e l a tt e r m o n t h s o f 2 0 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. M R S H A I K : B e c a u s e b y 2 0 1 2 I w a s h is t o r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : M r S h a i k w o u l d y o u c o m m e n t t h e n o n t h e b a s is o f y o u r o w n k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e r ie n c e in r e la ti o n t o i n t e ll i g e n c e m a t t e r s Page 128 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 o n t h e a p p r o p r ia t e n e s s o r o th e r w is e o f a M i n is t e r b e c o m i n g i n v o lv e d in o p e r a ti o n a l m a t te r s . M R S H A I K : T h e – C h a ir I f o u n d i t – I f o u n d i t i n a p p r o p r i a t e . I w o u ld g o s o fa r a s to s a y i ll e g a l b u t t h e n I w o u l d h a v e r e q u ir e d t h e c o u r a g e t o g o a n d p r o v e th a t i ll e g a li t y i n a c o u r t a n d i t w a s ju s t g o i n g t o b e a m e s s y a ff a ir. B u t i t is – i t is n o t d o n e li k e t h a t . T h e – t h e b e t t e r w a y w o u ld h a v e t o b e e n to a w a i t th e o u tc o m e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d t h e n d e a lt with the is s u e s of the i n v e s t ig a ti o n . Dealt with the r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o f th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . B u t m a k in g k n o w n y o u r v i e w o f 10 a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n o n a m a tt e r o f N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty w h e n y o u a r e t h e M i n is t e r of N a t io n a l Security is an i n d ic t m e n t a ls o on your u n d e r s t a n d in g o f N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e – th a t i s b e fo r e w e g e t t o t h e a c t u a l c o n t e n t o f t h e d is c u s s io n n e ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s I a m c o m in g t h e r e n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I t is j u s t a m a t t e r o f g e n e r a l p r i n c i p le . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o t h a t i s f i n e I w il l … A D V P R E TO R I U S : Mr S h a i k w h a t w a s th e t o n e o f t h e m e e ti n g ? 20 MR SHAIK: W e l l t h e m e e ti n g w a s e x tr e m e l y c o n f r o n t a t i o n a l – e x tr e m e l y c o n fr o n ta t io n a l . T h e – y o u k n o w th e M i n is t e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t t o s a y I k n o w i t h a p p e n e d a l o n g ti m e a g o b u t th e m o r e y o u a r e a b l e t o t e ll m e a b o u t t h e d e ta ils o f t h e d is c u s s i o n a n d th e t o n e t h e b e t t e r s o I g e t a s g o o d a p i c tu r e o f h o w th e m e e t i n g was as you have. Page 129 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A IK : O k a y. S o th e – w h e n w e a r r iv e d – s o t h e M i n is te r h a s a holding room. W e w e r e i n th e h o l d i n g r o o m a n d t h e M in is t e r th e n I t h i n k th e r e w a s a m e a l p r o v i d e d fo r u s a n d f r o m t h e r e w e w e n t in t o th e – t h e M i n is t e r ’s m e e t in g r o o m . T h e M in is t e r a t t e n d e d th a t m e e t i n g w i t h t w o p e o p le . O n e w a s a p p r o p r ia t e l y n o w A m b a s s a d o r Zl o m o w h o is S o u th A fr ic a ’s A m b a s s a d o r to A l g e r i a w h o a t t h e t i m e w a s a s p e c ia l a d v is o r t o th e M i n i s t e r. A n d h e a t t e n d e d – h e a ls o a t t e n d e d t h e m e e ti n g b y M r is it D o c t o r K a w M a b a n g u – K a w – t h e r e w a s a g e n tl e m a n b y th e n a m e o f D o c t o r K a w a n d I j u s t – th e s u r n a m e j u s t 10 e s c a p e s m e b u t I w il l g e t i t . CHAIRPERSON: Mabanga or Mabanga? I am just... MR SHAIK: No, no .. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m j u s t t h in k i n g o f s u r n a m e s a l o n g t h o s e li n e s . M R S H A I K : M a v u n g o b u t I w il l c h e c k a n d I w il l g iv e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll c h e c k j a o k a y. M R S H A I K : I w i ll c o n fir m t h e s u r n a m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: But there was Doctore Kaw and… C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s h is p o s i ti o n ? 20 MR SHAIK: H e is a m e m b e r – h e w a s – h e w a s t h e H e a d o f t h e M i n is t e r ia l S e r v ic e s a n d a m e m b e r o f th e s e r v ic e . A n d i n p a r t ic u l a r a m e m b e r o f t h e Fo r e ig n S e r v ic e . W h e n w e … CHAIRPERSON: W h ic h f e ll u n d e r y o u ? in s t a n c e ? M R S H A I K : Ye s w h i c h f e l l u n d e r m e . Page 130 of 194 W h ic h f e ll u n d e r y o u fo r 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: S o w h e n w e s t a r t e d th e m e e ti n g w e o b je c t e d t o h is p r e s e n c e o n t h e b a s i s t h a t h e is a j u n i o r o ffic i a l . W e a r e g o i n g t o b e d is c u s s in g – b e c a u s e th e M in is t e r i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e w a n t e d to d i s c u s s t h e G u p t a m a t te r. I w i ll – o u r G u p ta i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d I a m n o t t o o s u r e w h e t h e r i t is t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l w h o i n s is te d o r I in s is t e d th a t – th a t D o c to r K a w p l e a s e le a v e t h e r o o m o n th e b a s i s t h a t h e is a n o ff ic i a l fr o m t h e s e r v ic e a n d w e w o u l d n o t w a n t t o h a v e t h a t d is c u s s io n . I n s o f a r a s A m b a s s a d o r Z l o m o w a s c o n c e r n e d A m b a s s a d o r Zl o m o j u s t 10 r e tu r n e d fr o m a – a p o s t i n g a t a m u l ti la t e r a l – in t e l li g e n c e m u lt il a t e r a l in s t i tu t io n a n d w e f o u n d i t a c c e p t a b l e fo r h i m t o p r e s e n t i n t h e m e e ti n g in s o f a r as him b e in g an a d v is o r to the M i n is t e r. B u t with no p a r t ic ip a ti o n r i g h ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e o t h e r d id a g r e e t o l e a v e ? M R S H A I K : Ye s h e d id a g r e e t o l e a v e . CHAIRPERSON: ja. MR SHAIK: H e a g r e e d to l e a v e j a . S o t h e M i n is te r w a n te d t o h e a r fr o m A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a w h a t t h e r e a s o n s b e h i n d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e r e . A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a t o o k h i m t h r o u g h o r th in k i n g . 20 CHAIRPERSON: How – how did he know about it – about the decision t o i n v e s ti g a t e h a d A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a to l d h i m o r h o w h a d t h a t – b e c a u s e y o u s a i d y o u h a d ju s t m a d e t h e d e c i s i o n b e f o r e . O r is m e s h o w i n g m y i g n o r a n c e a b o u t in t e l li g e n c e . MR SHAIK: N o , n o y o u a r e s h o w in g y o u r – y o u a r e s h o w in g y o u r – y o u r – y o u a r e s h o w i n g y o u r i n te ll ig e n c e a b o u t i n t e ll i g e n c e m a t te r s . Page 131 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 T h e M i n i s te r w a s i n f o r m e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: We have not yet… C H A I R P E R S O N : O ffi c i a l ly ? MR SHAIK: No. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR SHAIK: T h e M in is t e r w a s i n fo r m e d b y s o m e o n e p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e ti n g . W e w e r e u n a b l e t o d e te r m i n e w h o in f o r m e d t h e M in is t e r b u t i t w a s c l e a r t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r w a s i n f o r m e d fr o m a p a r t ic ip a n t i n t h e 10 m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o h e a s k e d – h e w a n t e d t o b e to l d . M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t h is d e c is io n ? MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u s a y in g A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a t o o k h i m through. MR SHAIK: S o A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a l e d th e – t h e a r g u m e n t a n d e s s e n ti a l ly w h ic h w a s t h e a r g u m e n t s t h a t w e h a v e c o v e r e d t o n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm 20 M R S H A IK : N a ti o n a l s e c u r i ty a n d I t h i n k i n t h a t m e e ti n g a n d a g a i n A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a w i ll g o i n to i t. B u t th e r e w e r e o th e r n o is e s a r o u n d t h e – t h e G u p ta f a m ily. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A IK : Th is m a t te r n e e d e d t o b e i n v e s t ig a t e d . I t w a s u lt i m a t e ly i n t h e i n te r e s t o f t h e P r e s i d e n t t h a t t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a p p e n s . B e c a u s e Page 132 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 e i t h e r t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n is g o i n g t o f in d t h a t t h e r e is n o th i n g to th is s t o r y. A n d if th e r e is n o t h i n g t o t h e s t o r y th e n t h e P r e s i d e n t is i n a s e n s e c l e a r e d b y th e I n te ll i g e n c e S e r v i c e s . I f t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g to t h e s t o r y t h e n th e r e w e r e c o r r e c t iv e a c t io n t h a t c o u ld b e t a k e n . B u t I m u s t c o n f e s s C h a ir t h a t th e M i n is te r w a s h a v i n g n o n e o f i t . R e a s o n l e ft t h e r o o m w h e n w e e n te r e d a n d w e c o u l d n o t f in d e a c h o t h e r. In f a c t i t d e t e r io r a t e d w h e r e t h e M i n is te r m a d e t h i s m a tt e r i n c r e d i b l y p e r s o n a l . H e a r g u e d t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y w e d o i n g t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n i s b e c a u s e w e w a n t t o p u r s u e o r fu r t h e r t h e b u s i n e s s o b j e c t iv e s o f Mr N j e n j e . W e 10 a l l a t t h is ti m e i n f a ir n e s s to Mr N j e n j e I h a v e n e v e r s e e n h i m m o r e a n g r y t h a n I h a v e s e e n h i m i n t h a t m e e ti n g . d e n ie d t h a t . I d e n i e d th a t . in t e r e s t o f D ir e c to r N je n je . A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a W e w e r e n o t f u r t h e r i n g t h e b u s in e s s I n fa c t w h e n w e h a d o u r e a r ly m o r n i n g d is c u s s io n i t w a s D ir e c t o r N j e n j e w h o p l a c e d o n r e c o r d h i s c o n fl ic t a n d w h a t h is i n v o l v e m e n t o r – a n d I w il l n o t s a y i n v o l v e m e n t – h i s in t e r a c ti o n w it h h o w i t c a m e t o b e th a t h e i n t e r a c t e d w i t h t h e G u p t a ’s a n d w h a t w a s b e h i n d i t e tc e t e r a . A n d w e w e r e v e r y s a t is fi e d w i t h h is e x p l a n a t io n . A n d i f a n y t h i n g i n d e fe r e n c e t o h i m h e w a n t e d u s t o e n s u r e t h a t th a t d o e s n o t fe a t u r e i n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . S o if a n y t h i n g i t 20 w a s c o m p le t e l y t h e o p p o s it e t o w h a t th e M i n is t e r w a s a l le g in g . A g a i n w e tr i e d t o e x p l a i n to t h e M in is t e r a n d th e a g a i n th e M i n i s t e r d id n o t lis t e n . I t s e e m e d t o m e th a t th e M i n is t e r d id n o t w a n t t h is in v e s ti g a t i o n to happen. F o r r e a s o n s th a t I a m s u r e t h e M i n is t e r w o u ld e x p la in . I c a n o n ly b u t s p e c u l a te b u t h e d id n o t w a n t t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o h a p p e n a n d th e m e e ti n g w a s in c r e d ib ly te n s e . Page 133 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f s o m e b o d y – i f y o u – i f y o u c o m e t o k n o w t h a t t h e p o l ic e o r a n y o ff ic i a l a g e n c y o f th e s t a t e is c o n d u c t i n g s o m e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d y o u m a y b e t h e s u b j e c t o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a n d y o u k n o w t h a t t h e y w i ll f in d n o th in g . I w o n d e r w h y y o u w o u l d s a y s to p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . Yo u m a y o r m a y n o t b e a b le t o c o m m e n t o n th is b u t I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d w h y i f th e s e n i o r – [i n d is ti n c t ] s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t o f in t e l li g e n c e t a k e a d e c is io n s u c h a s t h is o n t h e f a c e o f i t i n g o o d f a i t h t o d o th e ir j o b w h y a n y b o d y c o u l d s a y, s t o p i t i f a s f a r a s th e y k n o w t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n w i ll f in d t h a t n o b o d y d id a n y t h i n g w r o n g o r 10 p a r t ic u l a r p e o p le d i d n o t d o a n y t h in g w r o n g . B e c a u s e i f y o u s a y i t m u s t b e s t o p p e d y o u l e a v e a q u e s ti o n m a r k a b o u t th e – t h e p e r s o n o r persons who were to be investigated. B u t i f y o u a l lo w i t to c o n t in u e a n d h e fi n d s o u t t h a t it c l e a r s th e m t h e n t h e w h o l e th in g i s b u r ie d . MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u – y o u m i g h t b e a b l e t o s a y s o m e t h in g ? Yo u h a v e d o n e a l o t o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n s I a m s u r e . M R S H A IK : I a m – I a m – f o r m e a n d a g a i n I w i ll s p e c u l a te I t h i n k i t g o e s a g a in t o o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y y o u s h o u l d n o t h a v e a M in is t e r o f I n t e lli g e n c e . 20 B e c a u s e a M in is t e r s e r v e s a t th e f a v o u r o r b e h e s t o f a P r e s i d e n t a n d th e r e fo r e w o u ld s e e k to e i t h e r i n g r a ti a t e t h e ms e lv e s o r w o u ld s e e k t o g e t f a v o u r fr o m a P r e s id e n t . Th e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l o f a n I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v i c e s s e r v e s th e n a ti o n a l i n te r e s t o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d o ft e n th o s e tw o t h i n g s t h e N a ti o n a l – s e r v in g th e n a t io n a l in t e r e s t versus serving the favours of a President may not be … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y mi g h t n o c o i n c id e Page 134 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : T h e y m a y n o t c o in c i d e . A n d I t h i n k t h i s i s a – a c l a s s ic a l e x a m p l e w h e r e t h e n a t i o n a l i n t e r e s t w a s u n d e r m in e d in o r d e r f o r f a v o u r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . C o n t in u e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : H o w l o n g d i d th is m e e ti n g la s t? M R S H A I K : To b e s t o f m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g I t h in k i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a hour to about two hours. CHAIRPERSON: Right. M R S H A I K : A n h o u r t o tw o h o u r s . 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w a s t h e o n ly r e a s o n t h a t t h e M i n is t e r a d v a n c e d f o r s a y in g th a t th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s h o u l d b e s to p p e d th a t i t w a s a n in v e s t i g a t io n i n t e n d e d t o b e n e f i t M r N j e n j e o r i t w a s d r iv e n b y h i m w h a t e v e r h e s a i d ? I s t h a t t h e o n ly r e a s o n h e g a v e o r a r e t h e r e o t h e r r e a s o n s t h a t y o u – t h a t h e g a v e b e c a u s e I w o u l d l ik e t o k n o w if t h e r e w e r e o th e r r e a s o n s a n d h e a r a n d b e a b le t o a s s e s s t h e ir v a l id i ty. M R S H A IK : I th i n k h e a ls o g a v e t h e r e a s o n th a t h e d id n o t d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y t h a t i n t e r m s o f th e m e d ia s c o p i n g e t c e t e r a h e d i d n o t s e e t h a t t h e s c o p i n g e x e r c is e th a t w e d i d i n r e s p e c t o f y o u k n o w t h is is 20 w h a t i s b e i n g s a i d i n th e m e d i a , h e d i d n o t s e e i t t h r e a t e n i n g N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty. He did not see it as we seen it. Th e – a n d h e w a s I t h i n k w i ll in g t o s a y t h a t t h e s e a r e m a t t e r s t h a t h a v e – p o li t ic a l m a t t e r s th a t t h e r e p o r t in t h e p a p e r – p o l i tic a l m a t t e r s w h i c h s h o u l d n o t r e q u ir e a tt e n ti o n . A n d h e – I a c t u a l ly g o t th e s e n s e t h a t t h e M i n i s te r d i d n o t b e li e v e t h a t w h ic h w a s b e in g a l le g e d w a s in f a c t tu r n e d o u t to b e t r u e . Page 135 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 S o I d o n o t t h i n k h e b e li e v e d t h e a ll e g a ti o n . d is m i s s iv e o f i t . A n d th e r e f o r e h e w a s W h e r e a s w e o n th e o th e r h a n d d id n o t t a k e a v i e w a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e a ll e g a ti o n s i n t h e m e d i a w a s to b e b e li e v e d o r n o t b e li e v e d . W e t o o k t h e v i e w t h a t th e m a t t e r s h o u l d b e i n v e s t ig a te d s o t h a t w e c o u l d a r r iv e d a t a n o b j e c tiv e u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t i n f a c t occurred. CHAIRPERSON: O f c o u r s e i f h e d i d n o t b e li e v e w h a t w a s b e i n g a l le g e d a n d n o w i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s d o n e a n d i t t u r n e d o u t th a t h e w a s w r o n g i n n o t b e li e v in g w h a t w a s a ll e g e d t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s c o u l d – 10 c o u l d b e a n d c o u l d h a v e b e e n d is a s tr o u s . S o is t h e p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t h e o u g h t t o h a v e s o u g h t t o a ir o n t h e s i d e o f c a u t i o n a n d s a y, w e l l I d o n o t b e l ie v e i t b u t i f t h e s e t h r e e s e n i o r p e o p l e w h o h a v e e x p e r i e n c e a lo t of experience in i n t e ll i g e n c e b e l ie v e in v e s t i g a t io n I s h o u ld le a v e it t o th e m . th e r e should be an Because if they find out that t h e r e i s n o p r o b le m t h e n i t is fi n e . M R S H A I K : A b s o l u te ly c o r r e c t a n d a g a in n o t - n o t t o t a k e a n y p e r v e r s e p l e a s u r e f r o m t h i s . I t d i d t u r n o u t t o b e c o r r e c t . I t w a s a d is a s t e r a n d a s a r e s u lt I a m s it t in g b e f o r e y o u o n a m a t t e r o f S t a te C a p t u r e a n d I t h i n k i n - i n f a ir n e s s i f w e w e r e a l lo w e d t o d o th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n . 20 We m a y b e - w e m a y - I a m n o t s a y i n g i t w o u l d n e c e s s a r i ly b e t h e c a s e . W e m a y b e t a lk i n g a b o u t d i ff e r e n t t h i n g s n o w. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l t h a t is - t h a t i s q u it e i m p o r ta n t M r S h a ik a n d i t g o e s b a c k t o a n i s s u e I r a is e d w i t h y o u m u c h e a r l i e r. W e l l I m e n t i o n e d t o y o u . N a m e ly - y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f I t h i n k I m e n ti o n e d , b u t I d i d n o t m e n ti o n i t. N a m e ly I t a lk e d a b o u t I t h i n k t h e r o l e o f p a r l ia m e n t a r y - Page 136 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 P a r li a m e n t i n te r m s o f i ts o v e r s i g h t o b l ig a ti o n s , b u t I d id n o t r e f e r t o o v e r s ig h t o b li g a t i o n s , b u t w h a t I w a s a b o u t … MR SHAIK: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: I s p a r t o f o v e r s i g h t. N amely about the votes of no c o n fi d e n c e a n d s o a n d s o o n . MR SHAIK: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o o n e o f th e th in g s t h a t I b e l ie v e I w il l h a v e to lo o k in t o i f I c o m e t o t h e c o n c l u s io n th a t y e s t h e r e w a s S t a t e C a p t u r e o r s o m e t h i n g t h a t s h o u ld n o t h a v e h a p p e n e d a n d - a n d t h a t h a p p e n e d . I 10 m a y h a v e t o s a y h o w d i d i t h a p p e n . W h o a r e t h e p o s s ib le r o l e p l a y e r s w h o c o u l d h a v e p r e v e n t e d i t fr o m h a p p e n i n g a n d w h a t m e c h a n is m s w e r e in p l a c e th a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n u s e d to p r e v e n t i t fr o m h a p p e n in g ? W e r e t h o s e m e c h a n i s ms u s e d e ff e c t iv e l y a n d h e n c e o n e c o u ld lo o k a t P a r li a m e n t ’s p e r fo r m a n c e o f i ts o v e r s ig h t o b li g a ti o n s in r e g a r d t o w h e n d i d t h e y s ta r t s u s p e c ti n g S t a t e C a p t u r e . What did they do a b o u t i t ? T h e s a m e t h i n g w h e n i t c o m e s t o th e le v e ls o f c o r r u p ti o n i n t h e c o u n t r y a n d a ll o f t h a t. W h a t d id t h e y d o ? W h a t a r e th e y d o in g w h e n t h e y - w h a t d o t h e y d o w h e n t h e y e x e c u te th e ir o v e r s i g h t o b li g a t io n s . 20 So you - you say here. Here we w e r e fr o m t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e C o m m u n i t y b e i n g S e n i o r M a n a g e r s h a v in g a m e e ti n g w i th t h e M i n i s te r. W e h a d m a d e a d e c is i o n t h a t t h is c o u ld p o s e a N a ti o n a l S e c u r i t y is s u e a n d s h o u ld b e i n v e s t ig a t e d . W e d e c i d e d t o i n v e s ti g a t e i t , b u t h e r e i s a M i n is t e r o f I n t e lli g e n c e to w h o m w e - w e r e p o r t w h o s a y s n o . It s h o u l d n o t h a p p e n … Page 137 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u s a y - w i t h th e b e n e fi t o f h i n d s ig h t y o u s a y w e ll lo o k i n g a t w h a t s u b s e q u e n tly h a p p e n e d … MR SHAIK: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : In d e e d … MR SHAIK: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: Th e r e is a c h a n c e t h a t - i f w e h a d b e e n a ll o w e d t o c o n d u c t o u r i n v e s t ig a t io n s t h e r e is c h a n c e th a t m a y b e w e c o u ld h a v e c o m e u p w i t h r e c o m m e n d a t io n s o r th a t c o u l d h a v e p r e v e n te d i t fr o m 10 h a p p e n in g o r e v e n i f i t d i d n o t p r e v e n t i t c o m p l e t e ly, b u t m a y b e i t m ig h t h a v e b e e n l i m i te d a n d n o t a s - h a v e g o n e a s fa r … M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : As it d i d . S o - s o I a m j u s t s a y in g th a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g is q u it e i m p o r t a n t, b e c a u s e it t h r o w s … M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A ls o o n th a t , b e c a u s e t o th e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e - th e r e w a s S ta t e C a p t u r e a n d s o o n . We need to know where did we go w r o n g . W h o w a s s u p p o s e d to d o w h a t? W h o d id n o t d o th e ir j o b a n d i f t h e y h a d d o n e t h e ir j o b c o u ld w e h a v e b e e n h e r e … 20 MR SHAIK: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o o n . S o th a t is q u it e i m p o r t a n t . M R S H A I K : C h a ir, I - I ju s t w a n t t o s a d t h a t a n d i n th is c a s e I w o u ld - I w o u ld b e a s d ir e c t a s I c o u l d b e . T h e - I t h i n k i t - it d o e s c o n s t i t u t e a d e r e li c t i o n o f d u ty o n t h e p a r t o f th e M i n is t e r h a v i n g a s s u m e d t h e f u n c t i o n o f th e M in is t e r a n d i n t e r v e n i n g i n t h e w a y h e d id . H e - h e d i d Page 138 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 c a u s e g r i e v o u s h a r m t o t h e w e l lb e i n g o f t h e S t a t e , b e c a u s e i m m e d i a te ly a ft e r t h is in c i d e n t w a s o f c o u r s e th e Wa t e r k lo o f l a n d i n g in c i d e n t . N o w I w o n d e r - I m e a n th e W a t e r k l o o f la n d i n g i n c i d e n t f o r m e w h ic h is a ls o o f - o f d e e p c o n c e r n , b e c a u s e i t w a s a - i t is a - a m i li t a r y a ir f o r c e . It is n o t a n o r m a l a ir f o r c e . I t i s a m i li t a r y a ir fo r c e in w h ic h - y o u k n o w. To e n te r a m i li t a r y a ir f o r c e i ts a ir s p a c e e tc e te r a . R e q u i r e s a p h e n o m e n a l a m o u n t o f i n te r v e n ti o n . I th i n k d e m o n s t r a t io n 10 happened. th a t of was p o w e r. again a - Unnecessary an incredible and it n a r c is s is t ic should not have I t w a s a v i o la t io n o f N a ti o n a l S e c u r i t y a n d i f w e w e r e a l lo w e d t o h a v e d o n e o u r in v e s ti g a t io n t h e - I d o n o t th i n k y o u w o u l d h a v e a t l e a s t f o r s u r e y o u w o u l d h a v e h a d t h e Wa t e r g a t e a ffa ir. I m e a n t h e W a t e r k lo o f a ffa ir. I a m a ls o - I m u s t s a y o n - o n r e c o r d s ir, b e c a u s e a n d I k n o w I a m s tr e t c h i n g i t h e r e . T h a t is c o m m o n p r a c ti c e o f M in is t e r s to a s s u m e t h e p o w e r a n d r e s p o n s i b i li ty a n d t h e p e r k s th a t c o m e w i t h t h e j o b s o f b e in g M i n is t e r s , b u t t h e n a r e t h e fir s t t o - t o c r y t h a t t h e y d i d n o t k n o w w h e n t h e r e a r e p r o b le m s . H o w c o u l d y o u n o t k n o w t h a t a n a e r o p l a n e w a s la n d i n g a t a m il i ta r y a ir b a s e ? 20 How could you not know and now I accept that A m b a s s a d o r B r u c e K o lo a n e a n d I k n o w h i m a n d h e is a - a - h e w a s a g r e a t A m b a s s a d o r. very e ff e c ti v e H e w a s a v e r y e ff e c t iv e A m b a s s a d o r. o ff ic e r of p r o to c o l , but I th in k in He was a one of your r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s i f y o u d o i n d e e d m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s D J . T h a t t h i s n o ti o n w h e r e o ffic i a ls t a k e th e f a l l fo r t h e e r r o r s o f t h e ir p o l i tic i a n s . I th i n k w e s h o u l d b r i n g t h a t t o a n e n d . Page 139 of 194 We should 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 b r i n g t h a t t o a n e n d . D o n o t b e c o m e a p o l it ic ia n i f y o u d o n o t w a n t t o t a k e r e s p o n s i b ili t y. Ta k e t h e c r e d i t . Ta k e t h e r is k , b u t a l s o t a k e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty a n d t h e o b l ig a ti o n s th a t c o m e w i th y o u r o ffic e . D o n o t p a s s t h a t o b li g a t i o n o r d o n o t p a s s t h e b l a m e o n to o ffic i a ls w h e n y o u k n o w t h a t - y o u k n o w - e s s e n t ia ll y y o u a r e - y o u y o u a r e n o t o w n i n g u p t o y o u r o w n r e s p o n s i b il it i e s a s M i n is t e r s a n d I t h i n k i n b o t h t h o s e c a s e s t h e s e a r e c l a s s ic e x a m p le s w h e r e M i n i s te r s d o n o t o w n u p t o th e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e ir o ffic e . CHAIRPERSON: 10 W e ll th a t i s - th a t i s q u it e i m p o r t a n t, b u t i t to u c h e s u p o n s o m e t h i n g t h a t I r a is e d w it h M i n is t e r M a i t e N k o a n a - M a s h a b a n e la s t w e e k w h o w a s h e r e t o g iv e h e r s i d e o f t h e s t o r y t o s a y w h y s h e r e c o m m e n d e d t o t h e t h e n P r e s id e n t t h a t M r - M r K o l o a n e b e m a d e A m b a s s a d o r a f t e r w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d h is r o l e in t h e Wa t e r k lo o f la n d i n g . B e in g k n o w n i n s o fa r a s h e h a d c o n f e s s e d t o c e r t a i n t h i n g s a n d m a d e c e r ta i n a d m is s io n s . Of course as we all know there is the q u e s t io n o f w h e t h e r th e P r e s i d e n t a t t h e ti m e k n e w a b o u t th is o r d id n o t know about it. O f c o u r s e Mr K o l o a n e h a d to l d c e r t a in o ffic i a ls in Wa t e r k l o o f t h a t - th a t i n e ff e c t th e P r e s i d e n t k n e w o r t h a t h e h a d b e e n 20 t o l d b y o n e o r o th e r M i n is t e r t h a t h e k n e w a n d w a n t e d t h is t o h a p p e n . O f c o u r s e l a t e r o n h e s a id n o th a t - t h a t w a s j u s t h i m l y i n g a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . S o - b u t w e a r e d e a l in g w i th t h e m a t t e r o n t h e o n t h e b a s is t h a t a s s u m in g t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t d i d n o t k n o w a n d a s s u m e t h a t M r K o l o a n e w a s r i g h t . T h a t t h is w a s h is w h o l e i d e a … MR SHAIK: Hm. Page 140 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h o w c o u ld y o u th e n g e t t h e s a m e g u y p r o m o te d … MR SHAIK: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: And you yourself say the appointment as an Ambassador is an honour and you say yourself that you knew before y o u m a d e t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t t h i s p e r s o n h a d a d m i t te d t o ly i n g a b o u t th is . S o m e t h in g a s i m p o r t a n t a s t h is a n d y o u a c c e p t th a t t h e p e r s o n d id n o t h a v e in t e g r i ty. Yo u a c c e p t t h a t to b e a n A m b a s s a d o r y o u m u s t h a v e i n t e g r i ty. H o w c o u l d y o u … MR SHAIK: Hm. 10 CHAIRPERSON: T h e n g o t o th e Pr e s i d e n t a n d r e c o m m e n d t h a t th e same person should be made President. That is what we were d is c u s s in g a n d I r a is e d t h e is s u e a b o u t v a l u e s . Yo u k n o w. Yo u s a y y o u k n o w - M in is t e r h a v e g o t to t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty. I m e a n y o u w o u l d k n o w t h a t y o u k n o w s o m e p e o p le w o u l d t a k e r e s p o n s i b ili t y a n d w ill s a y le a v e - le a v e m y j u n i o r s t a ff a n d w h a t e v e r. I m a d e t h i s d e c is io n . I ta k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty. I a c c e p t w h a t e v e r c r it ic is m . MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : As o p p o s e d t o t h o s e w h o w a n t to c o m e i n o n l y w h e n there is credit … 20 MR SHAIK: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h if t o u t o f li n e . MR SHAIK: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: M o v e o u t o f l in e w h e n t h e r e a r e p r o b l e m s a n d th e n p u s h ju n i o r o ffic i a ls fo r w a r d t o s a y th e y m u s t t a k e r e s p o n s ib il i ty. S o I I c e r ta in ly b e li e v e th a t a c c o u n ta b il it y is c r it ic a l in o u r d e m o c r a c y a n d Page 141 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h a t i t s ta r t s w it h b e in g a b l e to s t a n d u p f o r w h a t y o u b e l ie v e i s r i g h t a n d i f y o u b e li e v e w h a t y o u s t a n d f o r is r i g h t. Yo u s a y t h is is w h a t I b e li e v e . If you get persuaded d i ff e r e n t ly. Th e n y o u s a y n o w I h a v e c h a n g e d m y m i n d , b e c a u s e I h a v e b e e n p e r s u a d e d o t h e r w is e , b u t t h e q u e s t io n - t h e q u e s ti o n o f s e n i o r le a d e r s h id in g b e h i n d ju n io r o ffic i a ls . I t h in k is u n fo r t u n a t e . So I understand what you mean and … M R S H A I K : T h a n k y o u , s ir. CHAIRPERSON: 10 I t h i n k p e o p le m u s t t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty fo r t h e ir o w n r o l e s in w h a t e v e r. M r Pr e t o r i u s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Yo u w i ll r e c a ll a fe w m i n u t e s a g o M r S h a ik t h a t y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e i n g e n e r a l t e r m s a b o u t t h e p r in c i p l e s w h ic h a d h e r e t o t h e r e l a t i o n s h ip b e t w e e n a M i n i s te r o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d th e O p e r a t io n a l E x e c u t iv e s o n t h e o t h e r. A t t h is m e e ti n g in C a p e To w n d id t h e M i n i s te r s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t h is a u t h o r i ty a n d w h e t h e r in v e s t i g a t io n s c o u l d o r c o u ld n o t b e c o n d u c t e d w it h o u t h i s a u th o r i ty ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . T h e r e w a s a - a d e b a t e a b o u t t h a t, b u t b y t h a t t i m e t h e m e e t i n g d e t e r i o r a te d . W i t h t h e M in is t e r s a y i n g I a m i n s tr u c ti n g y o u n o t to c o n t i n u e w i th th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d I t h i n k a t t h a t p o i n t w e 20 b e c a m e u n c h a r a c t e r i s tic a l ly i n t h e e v e n t - i n t h e c a s e o f m y t w o c o l l e a g u e s u n c h a r a c te r is t ic a l ly e q u a l ly i m p o l it e . S a y i n g w e a r e g o i n g to i n v e s ti g a te a n d w e c o u ld n o t m o v e p a s t t h a t p o i n t a n d t h e n I th in k i t w a s A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a w h o t h e n m a d e t h e s u g g e s t i o n t h a t w e w o u ld r a th e r p r e f e r to d i s c u s s th is w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t d ir e c t ly. Page 142 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n a s e n s e t h a t t h e m e e t in g i n C a p e To w n r e s u l t e d o r d i d n o t r e s u l t i n a n y a g r e e d w a y fo r w a r d w a s t h i s - w a s th e is s u e b e t w e e n y o u r s e lv e s o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d t h e M i n is t e r o n t h e o th e r resolved? M R S H A I K : N o . T h e m a t t e r w a s n o t r e s o l v e d . T h e - w e d id n o t a c c e p t n o t t o - w e d id n o t - w e d i d n o t a c c e p t to s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . W e d id g e t t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to g e t a m e e t i n g w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e M i n i s t e r u n d e r t o o k t o a r r a n g e t h a t m e e ti n g w i t h t h e Pr e s i d e n t . So the matter w a s s o t o s p e a k p u s h e d u p t h e - th e r a n k s f o r a d i s c u s s io n w i th th e 10 President. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Right. H a v e y o u a n y i d e a fr o m th a t m e e t in g o r e ls e w h e r e w h e r e t h e M i n is t e r w o u ld h a v e r e c e iv e d i n f o r m a ti o n a b o u t t h e b u s i n e s s in t e r e s ts o f D ir e c to r N je n j e ? M R S H A I K : W e ll I c a n o n ly b u t a s s u m e th a t h e m a y h a v e r e c e iv e d t h a t in f o r m a ti o n f r o m t h e G u p t a s t h e m s e l v e s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : H a v e y o u a n y i d e a o f w h a t t h e In t e l li g e n c e c a p a b il it i e s o f t h e G u p ta f a m ily w e r e ? M R S H A I K : Th e - t h e G u p t a f a m ily a t t h a t t i m e w a s d e p l o y in g a l a r g e a m o u n t o f s e c u r i ty p e r s o n n e l a n d - a n d o ft e n t h e s e c u r i ty p e r s o n n e l 20 a ls o e n g a g e d i n i n f o r m a ti o n g a t h e r i n g . N o t o f a v e r y q u a li ty. M a i n ly s p e c u l a ti o n a n d r u m o u r m o n g e r i n g e t c e t e r a a n d I d i d p ic k u p t h a t th e G u p t a f a m ily h a d a k i n d o f i n te ll i g e n c e o p e r a t io n g o i n g , b u t I d i d n o t put much reliance on it and I must say I should have. M u c h t o m y d e tr i m e n t, b u t I d i d n o t p u t a n y m u c h r e l ia n c e o n it a n d in f a c t s u b s e q u e n t ly I f o u n d o u t t h a t i t w a s d o n e t h a t i n t e lli g e n c e Page 143 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 c a p a b il it y t h a t i n fo r m e d t h e P r e s id e n t t h a t th e r e i s a p o s s ib l e g r o u p i n g o f p e o p l e w h o w a n t to - t o t o p p le h i m . In fact I too was accused of b e i n g o n e o f t h e p e o p le w h o w a s p l a n n in g t o t o p p le P r e s i d e n t Z u m a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h is - i s t h i s n o w a r o u n d 2 0 11 ? M R S H A I K : I t i s a r o u n d 2 0 11 . J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : 2 0 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : L a te 2 0 11 . J a . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n r e la t io n t o w h e th e r o r n o t th e M in is t e r h a d t h e a u t h o r i ty e i th e r to i n s tr u c t o r t o s to p a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e is s u e a s t o w h e th e r O p e r a ti o n a l E x e c u ti v e s w e r e e n t i tl e d to c o n d u c t a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n w i th o u t th e a u t h o r it y o f t h e M i n is te r. What was the p o s i ti o n p u t b y y o u r s e l f a n d y o u r t w o c o ll e a g u e s ? MR SHAIK: T h e - th e p o s i ti o n t o t h e b e s t o f m y r e c a l l is t h a t t h e M i n is t e r d o e s n o t h a v e t h a t a u t h o r i ty. W e w il l c o n ti n u e w it h th is in v e s t i g a t io n s u b j e c t t o a d is c u s s i o n w it h t h e P r e s i d e n t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : H o w d id t h e m e e t in g e n d ? 20 M R S H A I K : C o l d ly. CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat. MR SHAIK: C o l d ly. I th i n k w e a ll g o t u p a n d n o n e o f u s s a i d o u r g o o d b y e s i n a v e r y p o l i te m a n n e r a n d w e j u s t l e f t. CHAIRPERSON: I - I t h o u g h t a t s o m e s t a g e d u r in g t h e m e e ti n g t h e w a y y o u a r e d e s c r i b i n g it . T h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n q u i te s o m e h e a t in Page 144 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h e m e e ti n g . S o la t e r o n it w a s c o l d . M R S H A I K : L a te r i t w a s c o ld . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V P R E TO R I U S : N o , n o . I a m … C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u d o n e w i t h t h e m e e t in g o r i f y o u a r e s ti ll … ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : N o . N o t e n ti r e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : J u s t o n e m o r e q u e s ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o . T h a t is fi n e . 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n r e la t io n t o w h e t h e r t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s s h o u l d c o n ti n u e o r s h o u l d b e s t o p p e d . I t h i n k y o u h a v e t o ld t h e C h a ir t h a t n o agreement was reached … MR SHAIK: Hm. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n th a t r e g a r d . MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : What was the position of yourself and your two colleagues in that regard? MR SHAIK: in v e s t i g a t io n . 20 W e w e r e o f t h e o p i n i o n t h a t w e w i ll c o n t in u e w it h th e T h a t t h e j u s t i fic a ti o n t h a t w e h a d w a s - w a s l e g i ti m a t e a n d t h a t t h e ju s t i fic a ti o n f o r th e - t h e in v e s ti g a ti o n w a s le g it i m a t e a n d w a r r a n t e d t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a n d th a t w e s h o u l d g e t t h e in v e s ti g a t io n going. H o w e v e r w e w a n t e d t o m e e t w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t , b e c a u s e b y m a k i n g th e - t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t t h e M i n i s t e r d o e s n o t h a v e a u t h o r i ty o v e r t h e - th e d ir e c t o p e r a ti o n s a n d w h o d o e s . O f c o u r s e t h e Pr e s i d e n t d o e s Page 145 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a n d w e th e r e fo r e w a n t e d to r a i s e th is m a t t e r d ir e c tly w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t t o c o n ti n u e t h i s - t h is o p e r a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s t h e o u ts t a n d in g q u e s t io n ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . I h a v e - I - I ju s t w a n t to p u t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e v e r s i o n o f A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D o t h a t, b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t I … A D V P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a d in m i n d . J a . 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : A s y o u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a ir t h e r e w i ll b e fu r t h e r i n r e l a ti o n to t h e e v i d e n c e in r e la t io n t o t h is m e e ti n g a n d I w o u l d j u s t lik e to put to you th e version of that m e e t in g as t e s t if i e d Ambassador Maqetuka. C H A I R P E R S O N : A s c o n ta in e d i n h is s t a te m e n t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s a n d I w il l g iv e - g i v e y o u a c o p y o f h i s s t a te m e n t . M R S H A I K : O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : N o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u s a i d a s t e s ti f ie d t o . 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n h is s t a t e m e n t . Ye s . I a p o l o g is e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A s to b e t e s t if i e d p e r h a p s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. W e l l d i d y o u p u t a q u e s ti o n o r y o u a r e s ti ll lo o k in g fo r … ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : I w o u l d li k e h i m t o h a v e t h e b e n e f i t o f th e … Page 146 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : C o p y i n c a s e h e w is h e s t o c o m m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja. O k a y. S o m e b o d y m u s t ( in d i s ti n c t) . Both c o u n s e l a r e s i t ti n g t h is s id e . O n e o f t h e m m u s t s i t t h i s s i d e . S o y o u c a n h e lp . O n e o f y o u m u s t b e t h a t s i d e . S o y o u c a n h e l p w i t h - i f - i f t h e w i t n e s s n e e d s t o b e a s s is t e d . I t i s m u c h b e t t e r i f t h e r e is somebody this side. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I u n d e r s t a n d . M y a u t h o r i t y d o e s n o t a l w a y s e x t e n d t h a t fa r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I t h o u g h t - I th o u g h t … A D V P R E TO R I U S : A c c e p t i n o p e r a t io n a l m a t t e r s . CHAIRPERSON: I t h o u g h t t h e l e a d - t h e l e a d e r o f th e - o f t h e t e a m c a n d ir e c t h o w t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e t e a m - w h e r e th e m e m b e r s s i t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . I - I w il l t a k e n o te o f t h a t . E n c o u r a g e fr o m t h a t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : C h a ir. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n r e g a r d to t h e m e e t in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll h e m i g h t n e e d a f e w m i n u te s t o h a v e a lo o k i f h e has not seen it before. 20 MR SHAIK: No. I have not seen it. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J u s t - ju s t h a v e a lo o k . A D V P R E TO R I U S : W o u l d y o u ju s t l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h s 6 a n d s e v e n . T h a t is a ll y o u n e e d t o l o o k a t . M R S H A I K : O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Fo r t h e m o m e n t a t a n y r a te . Page 147 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : Ye s . G o o d . A D V P R E TO R I U S : O k a y. P a r a g r a p h 6 t h e f o l lo w in g s ta t e m e n t i s made: “I informed the team …” T h a t is y o u r s e l f a n d Mr N j e n j e . “ … t h a t w h il e t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s s t il l o n g o i n g t h e then M i n is t e r for S iy a b o n g a C w e l e I n te ll ig e n c e a p p a r e n t ly got wind S e r v ic e s of th e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d s u m m o n e d u s t o a m e e t in g i n 10 C a p e To w n . ” T h a t is c o n s i s t e n t w it h w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d ? MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : H e - h e s a y s t h e m e e ti n g s t a r te d in t h e e a r ly e v e n i n g a n d w e n t o n t ill a b o u t m i d n i g h t . I d o n o t th in k m u c h t u r n s o n that. The next sentence he says: “ T h e M i n is te r … ” CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I a m - I a m s o r r y. Th a t m i g h t b e i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e y o u t h o u g h t i t to o k a b o u t a n h o u r o r s o . M R S H A I K : N o , n o . I s a id a t l e a s t t w o h o u r s . 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n h o u r o r t w o y o u s a i d . MR SHAIK: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d th e r e w a s d in n e r a n d s o f o r th . S o - j a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , a f te r t h e m e e t in g ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . Page 148 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR SHAIK: No, no. There was d in n e r before the m e e t in g . ( I n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , b e f o r e th e m e e ti n g . M R S H A I K : S o i t w e n t o n q u it e l a t e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. So … MR SHAIK: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o f r o m t h e ti m e y o u a r r i v e d … A D V P R E TO R I U S : 10 MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: To th e ti m e y o u l e ft it m i g h t h a v e b e e n b e y o n d m i d n i g h t w h a t e v e r. MR SHAIK: That is correct. Ja. CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e a c tu a l d is c u s s i o n m a y h a v e b e e n a b o u t a n hour or so? MR SHAIK: About two hours. CHAIRPERSON: About two hours? MR SHAIK: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e s t a te m e n t c o n ti n u e s in p a r a g r a p h 6 : “ T h e M i n i s t e r i n tr o d u c e s t h e r e a s o n w h y h e h a d c a l l e d u s a s t h e fa c t t h a t N j e n j e w a s u n d e r t a k i n g a n in v e s t i g a t io n of th e r e l a ti o n s h i p between P r e s i d e n t J G Z u m a a n d t h e G u p t a s a n d t h a t N je n je was c o n d u c t in g this in v e s t i g a t io n Page 149 of 194 for his own 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 b u s i n e s s in t e r e s t . ” Yo u r c o m m e n t in t h a t r e g a r d . MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a t i s c o r r e c t y o u s a y. P a r a g r a p h 7 : “ I i n s is t e d t o t h e M i n i s t e r t h a t th is w a s n o t N je n je ’s in v e s t i g a t io n , b u t th a t o f t h e S S A i n t e r m s o f i ts mandate.” MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : “ Th e M i n is t e r c o n ti n u e d - t h e M in is t e r … ” 10 S o r r y. M y a p o lo g i e s . “ T h i s t h e M i n i s te r ig n o r e d a n d h e c o n t i n u e d w it h h is li n e o f a d d r e s s in g th e i s s u e s o n N j e n j e . ” MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : “ T h e m e e t i n g e n d e d w it h o u t r e s o l v i n g t h e m a t t e r. ” S o fa r … MR SHAIK: We … A D V P R E TO R I U S : I t s e e m s t h a t y o u a r e i n b r o a d a g r e e m e n t … MR SHAIK: Ja. 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : A t l e a s t . “ L a t e r w e l e a r n t fr o m t h e m e d i a t h a t th e M i n is t e r h a d i n s tr u c t e d u s t o s to p th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . I h a v e t o s a y th a t I d o n o t r e c a l l h i m h a v in g g i v e n s u c h a n in s t r u c t i o n . Let a lo n e that a M in is te r for I n t e lli g e n c e w o u ld h a v e n o m a n d a t e t o s t o p a n Page 150 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 in v e s t i g a t io n w h e r e th e o r g a n i s a t io n h a d a s s e s s e d t h e n e e d to s o i n v e s t ig a t e . ” It seems that there is some d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n your r e c o l l e c ti o n a n d t h e r e c o ll e c t io n o f A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a . M R S H A I K : N o . I - I d o n o t s e e a s u b s t a n ti a l ly d i ff e r e n t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : W e l l h e s a y s h e d o e s n o t r e c a l l s u c h a n i n s tr u c ti o n being given … MR SHAIK: The - the … A D V P R E TO R I U S : To s t o p t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n . 10 MR SHAIK: W e l l t h e M i n i s te r w a s i n s is t in g t h a t w e d o n o t c o n t i n u e w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . T h a t is … A D V P R E TO R I U S : S o y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n is c le a r. M R S H A I K : T h a t i s w h a t I w a s r e c a ll i n g . Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . MR SHAIK: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d h e w a s g iv in g r e a s o n s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R S H A I K : Th a t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n is r e l a t e d t o t h e b u s i n e s s in t e r e s ts 20 o f D i r e c t o r N j e n j e a n d w e w e r e a r g u i n g t h a t it is t h e N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty i m p e r a t iv e t h a t i s d r iv in g th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o r th e n e e d f o r t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e - t h e r e m i g h t b e s i g n i fic a n c e in e s t a b l is h i n g w h e t h e r h e w a s g iv in g a n i n s tr u c t io n o r h e w a s s a y in g t h is m u s t s to p . W i th a v i e w t o g iv i n g i n s tr u c ti o n s o r w h e t h e r h e w a s s i m p l y e x p r e s s i n g Page 151 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a v i e w t h a t w a s c o n tr a r y t o t h e v ie w o f t h e t h r e e o f y o u a n d s a y in g h e t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r i t f o r w h a te v e r r e a s o n . S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a m a y b e s e e k i n g t o m a k e a d is ti n c ti o n w h e n h e s a y s h e d o e s n o t r e m e m b e r o r r e c a l l t h e M i n is te r g a v e a n i n s t r u c t i o n . W h e t h e r h e m e a n s w h a te v e r h e m a y h a v e s a i d h e d i d n o t v i e w a s a n i n s tr u c t io n … M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t h e m a y h a v e e x p r e s s e d h is v ie w s w h ic h w e r e t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t h e w a s a g a i n s t y o u c o n t in u i n g w it h t h e in v e s ti g a t io n , b u t 10 m a y b e h e v i e w s th e m - h e v ie w e d t h e m a s n o t h i n g th a n - m o r e th a n t h e M i n is t e r ’s v i e w s . S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t is t h e - th a t is t h e a n g le , b u t I e m p h a s is e i t t o y o u f o r p u r p o s e s o f y o u b e i n g a b l e t o s a y w h e t h e r a s f a r a s y o u - y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n is c o n c e r n e d y o u a r e q u i t e c le a r t h a t th e M in is t e r w a s s a y in g s t o p t h i s t h i n g . A s o p p o s i n g t o j u s t g iv i n g … M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: H is o w n v i e w s o r w h e t h e r h e w a s g iv in g h is - h is v ie w s a n d n o th in g m o r e . MR SHAIK: 20 Correct. I m e a n I a m - a n d a ls o I m u s t s a y t h a t a s t h e H e a d o f th e F o r e i g n Br a n c h I w a s n o t d i r e c t ly i n t h e fir in g li n e s o to s p e a k . I w a s t h e r e i n t h e s u p p o r t l in e a n d t h e - t h e M i n is t e r w o u l d i f h e w a s g o i n g to i n s tr u c t . T h e M in is t e r c o u l d h a v e w r i t t e n t h is in a l e t te r to s a y. I h e r e b y i n s tr u c t y o u n o t t o e n g a g e i n t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d I - b e s t o f m y r e c o ll e c t io n I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t h a p p e n e d , b u t w h a t I Page 152 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 u n d e r s t o o d fr o m t h e f o r c e fu l n e s s fr o m w h i c h th e M i n is t e r w a s d e b a t in g w i t h u s t h e m a n n e r o f th e d e b a t e . T h e - t h e l e v e l o f h is q u e s ti o n i n g . H e i n n o u n c e r ta i n te r m e x p r e s s e d a n in c r e d i b l e u n h a p p in e s s a b o u t o u r w a n ti n g t o i n v e s ti g a te a n d I r e a d fr o m t h a t t h a t h e w a n t e d u s n o t t o in v e s t i g a t e a n d I - I v ie w e d t h a t a s a n i n s tr u c ti o n n o t t o i n v e s t i g a t e . CHAIRPERSON: S o to th e e x t e n t t h a t th e r e m i g h t b e a d e b a te a b o u t w h e t h e r w h a t h e s a i d a m o u n te d to a n i n s tr u c ti o n - v e r b a l i n s tr u c ti o n … MR SHAIK: Huh-uh. C H A I R P E R S O N : A s o p p o s e d to a w r i tt e n in s t r u c t i o n t o t h e e x t e n t th a t 10 t h e r e m i g h t b e a d e b a te a b o u t t h a t. M a y b e i n t e r m s o f y o u r v e r s i o n a n d A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a ’s v e r s i o n i s i t p o s s i b l e t h a t w h a t y o u - w h a t there should be no debate about as far as you are concerned among t h e t h r e e o f y o u i s t h a t t h e M i n i s te r s o u g h t t o p u t a lo t o f p r e s s u r e o n t h e t h r e e o f y o u t o s t o p th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . MR SHAIK: Sure. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e s h o u l d b e n o d e b a t e a b o u t th a t ? M R S H A I K : T h e r e i s n o d e b a t e a b o u t t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e s h o u l d b e n o d e b a t e a b o u t th a t ? M R S H A I K : N o , n o , n o . A t l e a s t fr o m m y p o i n t o f v i e w. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R S H A I K : N o d e b a t e a b o u t t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Th r o u g h o u t i t w a s q u i t e c le a r h e w a s p u t ti n g a l o t of pressure? MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W h e th e r y o u s a y t h a t a m o u n te d t o a n Page 153 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 in s t r u c t i o n o r n o t . M R S H A I K : Ye s . C o r r e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : It m i g h t b e a n o t h e r t h i n g , b u t h e w a s p u t ti n g a l o t o f p r e s s u r e a n d a ll t h r e e o f y o u s h o u l d - s h o u ld p r o b a b ly a g r e e o n t h a t ? MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : B y w a y o f s u m m a r y t h e n w e h a v e a m e e ti n g t h a t t o o k p l a c e fo r u p t o t w o h o u r s o r m o r e t h a n t w o h o u r s . W h a t w a s t h e e s s e n ti a l p o i n t o f d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n th e t h r e e E x e c u ti v e s a n d t h e 10 M i n is t e r ? MR SHAIK: W e b e l ie v e t h a t th e - a s a r e s u l t o f t h e a n a ly s is o f o p e n s o u r c e i n f o r m a t io n t h a t w e h a d a n d o th e r i n f o r m a t i o n th a t t h e r e w a s a ju s t i fi a b ly w a r r a n te d in v e s ti g a t i o n t h a t s h o u ld b e c o n d u c t e d b y t h e I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s w i t h i ts f u l l c a p a c i ty i n t o t h e G u p t a s . The M i n is t e r ’s p o s i t io n w a s t h a t h e d i d n o t th i n k t h a t th e e v i d e n c e w a r r a n t e d a n in v e s ti g a t io n a n d h e e x p r e s s e d h is u n h a p p i n e s s t o u s i n in no u n c e r ta in terms about our d e s ir e to c o n t in u e w i th that in v e s t i g a t io n . A D V P R E TO R I U S : 20 Yo u h a v e g iv e n e v id e n c e th a t th e m e e ti n g w a s t o s a y t h e le a s t c o n fr o n t a ti o n a n d a d v e r s a r ia l ? MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : S tr o n g v ie w s w e r e e x p r e s s e d ? MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : D id y o u e v e r t a k e a p o s i ti o n w h i c h s h o w e d th a t y o u h a d b e e n p e r s u a d e d b y th e M in is t e r ’s v i e w s ? Page 154 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : I a m s o r r y, s ir. A D V P R E TO R I U S : D i d - d i d y o u a g r e e a t a n y s ta g e w i t h t h e M in is t e r ’s stance? MR SHAIK: Oh no. Oh no. Not - not … A D V P R E TO R I U S : D i d h e a t a n y s t a g e a g r e e w i th th e s ta n c e t h a t y o u h a d ta k e n , th a t i s t h e t h r e e o f y o u ? MR SHAIK: I t h o u g h t a t o n e m o m e n t i n t h e d is c u s s i o n th a t t h e w a y w e p u t o u r a r g u m e n t w a s c o m p e ll in g a n d t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e t o a g r e e to d o t h is , b u t t h e – h e o p e n e d t h e d o o r s li g h tl y th a t y e s t h i s m a y w a r r a n t a 10 lo o k i n t o i t, b u t t h e n h e c lo s e d t h a t d o o r i m m e d i a t e ly a n d f o c u s e d a g a i n o n N j e n j e , s o a t th a t p o in t w e w e r e l o s t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : S o o v e r t h e p e r i o d o f t h e m e e ti n g in q u it e c o n fr o n t a ti o n a l c ir c u m s t a n c e s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] MR SHAIK: Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : evidence then . . .a n d c o n f r o n ta t i o n a lly e x p r e s s e d is i t y o u r that the M i n i s te r p e r s i s t e d i n h is v ie w th a t th e in v e s t i g a t io n s h o u l d n o t t a k e p l a c e a n d y o u p e r s is te d i n y o u r v i e w s t h a t it s h o u l d t a k e p l a c e . MR SHAIK: 20 Th a t i s c o r r e c t. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll t o th e e x t e n t t h a t y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e g iv e n m e t h e d e t a i ls I a m g o i n g to a s k f o r I w o u ld lik e t h e m b e c a u s e it m a y b e d i ff ic u l t t o m a k e a d e t e r m i n a t io n b e t w e e n p u t t in g p r e s s u r e i n a m e e ti n g p u t t in g p r e s s u r e t o s t o p t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d e x p r e s s i n g v i e w w h ic h w e r e c o n tr a r y to t h e t h r e e o f y o u b u t d o i n g s o f ir m ly, s o y o u s a i d t h a t t h e m e e ti n g w a s c o n fr o n ta t io n a l a n d th e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g s th a t y o u c a n Page 155 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 r e m e m b e r th a t s o a n d s o s a i d t h i s o r d i d t h is , y o u k n o w y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e t h e b e n d i n g o f t h e t a b l e o r a n y th i n g lik e t h a t , b u t I j u s t w a n t t o g e t t h a t p ic t u r e i f y o u a r e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r y o u k n o w s o m e b o d y, h o w t h is w a s , h o w th e c o n fr o n t a ti o n a l c o n d i t io n , t h e a t m o s p h e r e o f t h e m e e ti n g m a n i f e s t e d i ts e lf i n t e r m s o f t h e d is c u s s i o n , i n t e r m s o f t h e in t e r a c ti o n . M R S H A IK : O n e e x a m p l e t h a t c o m e s t o m i n d i s t h a t w h e n t h e M i n is te r s t a r t e d to g iv e r e a s o n s b u t i t is Mr N j e n j e ’s b u s i n e s s in t e r e s ts t h a t’s d r i v i n g t h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n , a n d n o t th e N a t io n a l S e c u r i ty i m p e r a ti v e , 10 M i n is t e r – I m e a n A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a c o u n t e r e d b y s a y i n g b u t D ir e c t o r N j e n j e e x p l a i n e d f u l ly a n d f u l ly d i s c l o s e d t h is to u s a n d w e a r e c o n v i n c e d th a t i t h a s n o th in g t o d o w i th h i s b u s i n e s s i n t e r e s ts a t a l l . T h e , I t h i n k D i r e c t o r N j e n j e e n te r e d th e d i s c u s s i o n a s w e l l a n d tr i e d t o c o n v i n c e t h e M i n is t e r th a t t h i s is a b s o l u te ly n o t t h e c a s e a n d t h e M i n is t e r w a s h a v i n g n o n e o f i t s o a t s o m e p o i n t t h e M i n is t e r s a id n o , n o , n o , y o u k n o w y o u a r e c o n fli c te d o n t h is m a t t e r y o u k n o w a n d t h e d e b a te w e n t a r o u n d a n d a r o u n d w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a c o n fl ic t o r w a s t h e r e n o c o n f lic t , w h e th e r t h e b u s in e s s i n t e r e s t w a s d r iv i n g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n o r n o t b u t t h e M i n is te r d i d n o t w a n t t o li s te n t o th e f a c t 20 t h a t w e n e e d e d t o i n v e s ti g a te t h e G u p ta s , d i d n o t w a n t , d id n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in th e c o u r s e o f t h e d is c u s s io n d id h e m e n ti o n , i f y o u a r e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r, th a t t h i s in v e s t ig a ti o n s h o u l d b e s t o p p e d o r a n y th in g lik e t h a t , I t h i n k e ff e c ti v e ly t h a t ’s w h a t y o u h e h is s t a n c e w a s b u t I a m w o n d e r i n g w h a t t e r m in o lo g y h e w a s u s i n g . MR SHAIK: J a , a t t h e l e v e l o f th e d i s c u s s io n I a m t r y i n g to n o w j u s t t o Page 156 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a m e m o r y r e c a l l , t h e le v e l o f t h e i n t e r a c ti o n b e tw e e n u s a s D ir e c to r G e n e r a ls a n d h i m a s M i n is t e r o ft e n t h e r e is a l a n g u a g e t h a t i s s p o k e n a m o n g s t y o u k n o w t h e – if I e x p r e s s m y u n h a p p i n e s s o n a m a t t e r I a m li te r a ll y t e lli n g y o u y o u a r e n o t g o in g t o p r o c e e d a n y fu r t h e r, a n d I o n t h e o th e r h a n d w il l te ll y o u n o I a m g o i n g t o p r o c e e d f u r t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR SHAIK: Yo u n o w p u s h e d i t to t h e b a r r e l w h e r e th e n e x t s t e p is t h e w r i t t e n w o r d , t h e “ I i n s tr u c t y o u n o t to d o t h is ” . I think we were b e c o m i n g c l o s e to t h e w r i tt e n w o r d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: B u t th e d is a g r e e m e n t w a s t a c t f u l ly a r o u n d a v e r y i m p o r t a n t m a n d a t e , d o y o u M in is t e r h a v e t h e a u t h o r i ty t o in s t r u c t o n a n o p e r a ti o n o r n o t , a n d w e w e r e y o u k n o w y o u c a n s a y w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y b u t w e a r e g o i n g t o c o n t i n u e th is a n d th e o n ly p e r s o n w h o c a n t e l l u s n o t t o d o t h is i s th e P r e s i d e n t , b e c a u s e h e is r e s p o n s ib le f o r t h e d ir e c t io n of the I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s so we avoided an overt c o n fr o n t a ti o n w i th t h e M i n is t e r o r a n a b s o lu t e b r e a k d o w n w h e r e i t n o w h a s to g o t o th e p a s s a g e o f le t t e r s a n d I u p to s ta g e d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r l e t t e r s d i d c r o s s t h e ta b l e . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: A n d o u r w a y o u t w a s w i th t h e m e e ti n g w it h th e P r e s i d e n t . CHAIRPERSON: S o , b u t t h e i s s u e t h a t t h e M i n is t e r d i d n o t h a v e t h e a u t h o r i ty t o s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t y o u r a i s e d a s t h e t h r e e , y o u raised with him. MR SHAIK: Ye s , y e s c o r r e c t . Page 157 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d e i t h e r s a y s t h a t y o u w o u l d n ’ t r a is e i t u n l e s s y o u b e l i e v e d h e w a s tr y in g t o s to p th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? MR SHAIK: C o r r e c t , th a t is s o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR SHAIK: Th a t i s c o r r e c t s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . MR SHAIK: And again I would repeat in my understanding in t e r p r e t a ti o n l a n g u a g e t h e c u l tu r e o f I n te ll ig e n c e t h e M i n i s te r w a s u n a m b ig u o u s i n h i s u n h a p p i n e s s a b o u t th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d a s a r e s u l t 10 the view that we were left with was that he does not want this in v e s t i g a t io n to c o n ti n u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja . MR SHAIK: Th e r e i s n o d o u b t a b o u t t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is n o d o u b t a b o u t t h a t . MR SHAIK: N o n e w h a ts o e v e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Mr Pr e t o r i u s I s e e w e a r e a t n i n e m i n u t e s p a s t f o u r, f r o m m y s id e i f i t is fi n e w i t h e v e r y b o d y w e c a n c o n t in u e a n d tr y a n d f in is h w i t h h i m , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t y o u r s it u a ti o n is , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t M r S h a i k ’s s i tu a ti o n i s . 20 fi n i s h ? H o w l o n g d o y o u t h i n k w e n e e d fo r h i m t o I n t h e e n d w e m u s t d o j u s tic e to t h e m a t te r, s o t h a t is i m p o r t a n t, b u t – w e l l w h i le y o u a r e l o o k in g m a y b e M r S h a ik i f w e c o n ti n u e f o r a n o t h e r 3 0 , 4 0 , 4 5 m i n u t e s , m a y b e u p t o a n h o u r t o fi n i s h w o u ld t h a t s u it y o u ? MR SHAIK: Th a t w il l b e fi n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w i ll b e f in e fr o m y o u r s id e . Page 158 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : W e s t il l h a v e t o c o n s u lt w i t h A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a b u t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o I a m – i f t h e a r r a n g e m e n t w a s t h a t i f w e d o n ’ t fi n i s h h e is a v a il a b l e t o m o r r o w w e c a n c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w t h a t is f i n e , b u t I ju s t t h o u g h t th a t s in c e w e h a v e g o t t w o o t h e r w i tn e s s e s i t m a y b e t h a t i t is b e t te r t o fi n i s h w i t h h is e v id e n c e t o d a y, b u t I a m n o t r ig id . A D V P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir c a n I s u g g e s t c o m p r o m is e , b e c a u s e th e r e is a s u b s t a n ti a l a m o u n t o f e v i d e n c e s t ill t o c o m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e s t a t e m e n t is i n p a r ts q u o t e t e r s e a n d I w o u l d a ls o lik e t o c a n v a s w i th M r S h a i k c e r ta in is s u e s a r i s i n g o u t o f t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t , w h i c h m i g h t fa ll p e c u li a r ly w i th i n h i s k n o w l e d g e , s o th a t is i n a d d i ti o n to t h e s t a te m e n t , s o i t is n o t j u s t a m a t t e r o f r e m a i n i n g p a r t s o f t h e s t a te m e n t , b u t t h e r e a r e is s u e s o n w h ic h I w o u l d a s k l e a v e t o a s k f u r th e r q u e s t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V P R E T O R I U S: A n d o n e s e t o f q u e s t io n s th a t is n o t c o n ta i n e d i n t h e s t a te m e n t , s o m a y I s u g g e s t fiv e o ’c l o c k . CHAIRPERSON: 20 I a m e a s y, th a t is fi n e , I d id n ’ t e x p e c t w e w o u l d g o b e y o n d fiv e o ’ c l o c k b u t a s y o u s a y y o u k n o w m o r e t h a n I d o n o w t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r m a t t e r s th a t y o u w a n t to r a i s e . I a m q u i t e h a p p y th a t w e g o u p t o fi v e o ’ c l o c k a n d t h e n if w e d o n ’ t fi n i s h t h e n s u b j e c t t o h is a v a i la b ili t y t o m o r r o w h e c a n . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] A D V P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON: I h o p e th a t a c c o r d s w i t h t h e a v a il a b il i ty. I f w e d o n ’ t fi n i s h b y f iv e o ’ c l o c k w o u ld y o u b e Page 159 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 a v a i la b le t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g t o f i n is h ? MR SHAIK: S u r e I w i ll m a k e a r r a n g e m e n t s C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts ? MR SHAIK: Ja. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a t is a l l s u b je c t t o th e a b s o lu t e u n r e l i a b il i ty o f c o u n s e l ’s p r e d ic ti o n s i n r e l a ti o n t o ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t , l e t u s c o n ti n u e t h e n . Or maybe we s h o u l d t a k e a li t tl e b i t o f – a t e n m i n u te s b r e a k . A D V P R E TO R I U S : 10 As you please. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n – is t e n m i n u t e s fi n e ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y, le t ’s – w e ll i t is a b o u t t w e lv e m i n u t e s p a s t . I w i ll j u s t s a y le t u s c o m e b a c k a t t w e n ty f iv e p a s t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : MR SHAIK: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Tw e n t y f iv e p a s t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t w e n ty f iv e p a s t . REGISTRAR: We adjourn. A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES 20 CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r S h a ik j u s t o n e q u e s ti o n o n t h e m e e ti n g w i th t h e M in is t e r to w h i c h y o u h a v e t e s ti f ie d . T h e is s u e o f Mr N j e n j e ’s b u s i n e s s i n te r e s t s w a s t h a t th e o n l y r e a s o n g iv e n f o r a d is c o n t in u a t i o n o r s u g g e s t e d d is c o n t i n u a ti o n o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M R S H A IK : Ye s to t h e b e s t o f r e c a l l y e s a n d o f c o u r s e it w a s n o w th a t Page 160 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 I l o o k b a c k o n i t t h e M i n is t e r w a s d r a w in g e x t e n s i o n s fr o m – fr o m a n in v e s t i g a t io n i n t o th e G u p t a ’s t h a t m a y e x t e n d t o p o s s i b l y in v e s ti g a t io n in t o th e P r e s i d e n t . M y – m y r e c a ll a n d I t h i n k t h e – t h e a r g u m e n t t h a t w e m a d e i s t h a t t h a t is n o t n e c e s s a r i ly th e c a s e . W e a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g t h e G u p ta ’s in – a n d w h a t e v e r r a m i f ic a ti o n s w i ll c o m e o f i t w i ll c o m e o u t o f i t . A n d o f c o u r s e i t is t h e n u p t o t h e – t h e Pr e s id e n t o r t h e M i n i s t e r h o w to t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t w il l b e m a d e . T h e – t h e f e a r t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n m a y e x t e n d to t h e P r e s i d e n t a g a in w a s unwarranted. But the Minster was not clear in the reason why he did ot 10 w a n t t h i s i n v e s t ig a ti o n to s to p . H e j u s t – it s e e m e d t o m e a t le a s t t h a t h e w a s o f th e v ie w th a t h e is g o i n g t o c o m e , p r o v i d e a m e a l , h a v e a d is c u s s io n w it h u s th a t t h i s is g o i n g t o e n d a n d i t w a s g o i n g t o e n d l ik e that. S o I t h i n k h e w a s a ls o t a k e n a b a c k b y th e – t h e b e li e f th a t w e h a d th a t th is i s a N a t i o n a l S e c u r i ty is s u e . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l e a r li e r o n I w o n d e r e d w h e th e r t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g i n th e c h o ic e o f t h e w o r d f e a r. W h y s h o u l d i t b e a f e a r b u t y o u a r e – y o u a r e a c t u a l ly e x p r e s s in g . M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t y o u u n d e r s to o d t o b e h i s p o s i ti o n . 20 MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : M in is t e r j a . O k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : J u s t a s a m a tt e r o f p r i n c ip l e e v e n i f o n e o f th e th r e e e x e c u tiv e s h a s a c o n fl ic t o f i n t e r e s t w o u ld t h a t h a v e a ffe c t e d th e in p r i n c i p l e d e c is io n to in v e s t i g a t e w h e r e t h e r e w a s a n e e d t o i n v e s t ig a te ’ MR SHAIK: A b s o l u t e ly n o t . Th e – a n d i n fa c t a p r o p e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n Page 161 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 w o u ld a l lu d e t o t h e c o n fl ic t o f i n te r e s t t o t h e e x t e n t th a t i t n e e d e d t o b e p l a c e d o n r e c o r d . T h e – s o e v e n th a t w a s – w a s n o t a r e a s o n to s t o p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: W o u l d th e r e n o t h a v e b e e n a w a y i f th e r e w a s a n y le g i t i m a te c o n c e r n a b o u t a p o s s i b l e c o n fl i c t o f i n t e r e s t a t t a c h i n g to M r Njenje? W o u ld it n o t h a v e b e e n p o s s i b l e f o r t h e in v e s ti g a t io n t o b e c o n ti n u e d w i t h o u t M r N j e n j e b e in g in v o lv e d h i m s e l f in t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? O r w a s th e p r o b le m t h a t h e w a s h e a d o f th e v e r y b r a n c h o r u n i t th a t w o u ld d o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? 10 MR SHAIK: Ye s n o w S ir t h e – t h e Mr N j e n j e w o u ld n o t b e d ir e c tly in v o lv e d in t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : H i s p e r s o n n e l , h is p e o p l e a n d t h e e n tir e s e r v ic e in t e r m s o f t h e r e q u ir e d c o m p o n e n t s w o u l d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : S o t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a m e a s u r e a s it s h o u ld a lw a y s b e [ in d i s ti n c t ] i n te ll ig e n c e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a m e a s u r e o f o b je c tiv i ty. So e v e n to t h a t e x t e n t I f e lt t h e – t h e M in i s t e r ’s c o n c e r n s w e r e – w e r e s o m e w h a t i r r a t i o n a l t o p u t i t – p u t i t mi l d ly. Th e r e w a s n o c a s e t o s t o p 20 it . E v e n i f y o u l o o k e d a t t h e m e t h o d o lo g y n o t h in g i n th e m e t h o d o l o g y w o u ld h a v e l e d t o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n b e i n g c o m p r o m is e d o r p r e j u d i c e d o r b i a s e d i n a n y w a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : D id a m e e ti n g w it h th e P r e s i d e n t fo ll o w ? MR SHAIK: It – it did indeed. The… Page 162 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : H o w l o n g a ft e r t h e m e e ti n g w i th t h e M i n i s te r ? M R S H A I K : To t h e b e s t o f m y u n d e r s t a n d in g a g a in m e m o r y i s a fa u lt y t h i n g I b e l ie v e t h a t m e e t in g o c c u r r e d th e n e x t d a y o r t h e d a y a f te r. B u t w e d id n o t r e tu r n t o P r e t o r i a w e s t a y e d i n C a p e To w n a n d t h e n a t te n d e d t h e m e e ti n g t h e n e x t d a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : W h e r e d i d y o u m e e t w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t? M R S H A I K : W e m e t a t th e Pr e s i d e n t ’s r e s i d e n c e i n C a p e To w n . A D V P R E TO R I U S : W h o w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e t in g ? M R S H A IK : A t t h e m e e ti n g w a s th e – w e w a i te d fir s t f o r t h e P r e s i d e n t . 10 S o a t t h a t m e e t in g w a s A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a . W a s D ir e c to r N j e n j e a n d m y s e l f a n d th e n w e w e r e jo in e d b y t h e Pr e s i d e n t . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e m e e ti n g ? If you could ju s t d e s c r i b e t o t h e C h a ir p r in c i p a ll y th e e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n y o u r s e lv e s o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d th e P r e s i d e n t o n t h e o th e r ? MR SHAIK: Ye s . T h e – t h e P r e s i d e n t w e lc o m e d u s . We were all s e a te d . I d i d g e t a s e n s e t h a t h e w a s b r i e f e d a b o u t w h y w e w e r e th e r e a n d o b v i o u s ly h e k n e w t h a t i t w a s a b o u t t h e m a t t e r o f t h e G u p t a in v e s t i g a t io n . B u t t h e P r e s i d e n t s ta r t e d o ff w i t h a d i s c u s s io n o n e s s e n ti a l ly w h a t i s c a l l e d th e – I g o t t o g e t t h is p r o n u n c i a t i o n r i g h t – 20 t h e R i c h a r d M d l u li R e p o r t . T h e r e w a s a … CHAIRPERSON: Did you say Richard Mdluli Report? M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR SHAIK: Th e – th a t r e p o r t a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r e v i d e n c e o f t h a t w a s l e d b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s io n y e t? Page 163 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I – I a m n o t – I d o n o t th i n k I h a v e h e a r d o f a Richard Mdluli Report. M R S H A I K : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: So – yes. MR SHAIK: T h e r e p o r t e s s e n ti a l ly w a s a r e p o r t c o n d u c t e d b y P o li c e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w h e n M r M d l u l i w a s t h e h e a d o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a n d i t e lu d e d to a – a p o s s ib l e g a t h e r i n g o f A N C p e o p l e w h o w e r e p l a n n in g i n N e w C a s tl e t o t o p p l e t h e – t h e P r e s i d e n t Z u m a . A n d w e – C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I r e m e m b e r t h a t p a r t fr o m t h e m e d i a . 10 M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But not from the – yes. MR SHAIK: Correct. So C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j a . M R S H A I K : I t i s t h a t r e p o r t I a m r e f e r r in g t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: Th e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l u n d e r t h e – t h e l e a d e r s h ip o f t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l a n in v e s t i g a t io n in t o th a t r e p o r t w a s c o n d u c t e d b y th e SSA. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a w h e n y o u … 20 M R S H A I K : Ye s b y A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e i n it i a t e d th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . M R S H A I K : H e in i ti a te d a r e p o r t b e c a u s e a g a in a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o – t o le a d h is e v i d e n c e b u t h e w a s c a ll e d b y t h e – t h e J u d g e in c h a r g e o f in t e r c e p t i o n w h o r a i s e d a c e r t a i n c o n c e r n a b o u t th e n u m b e r o f in t e r c e p t i o n s t h a t a r e o c c u r r i n g in th e p o l ic e a n d t h e r e s e e m s to b e Page 164 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 s o m e t h i n g n o t r i g h t i n th e p o l ic e s e r v ic e . A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a i n h i s c a p a c i ty a s a D G o f S S A s u b j e c te d t h e – t h e N d l u l i R e p o r t t o a v e r a c i ty t e s t t o s e e h o w tr u th f u l t h is r e p o r t i s . Is th e r e a n y t h i n g i n t h i s r e p o r t that is correct or accepted? CHAIRPERSON: S o – I a m s o r r y. S o t h e r e is w h a t t h e p u b l ic w o u l d have read in the newspapers? M R S H A I K : Ye s . C o r r e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t a g a t h e r i n g o f s o m e A N C p e o p l e i n N e w C a s tl e . M R S H A I K : I n N e w C a s tl e t h a t is c o r r e c t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O r E s c o r t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. M R S H A I K : Ye s , ja . C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : P l o tt i n g to u n s e a t – I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t o r – b u t p l o t ti n g s o m e t h in g s . MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s a y th a t – t h o s e m e d i a a r t ic le s w e r e b a s e d o n w h a t y o u r e f e r to a s t h e M d lu li R e p o r t MR SHAIK: No. CHAIRPERSON: Oh, oh. M R S H A I K : T h e M d l u l i R e p o r t is th e r e p o r t th a t s p o k e o f th a t m e e ti n g 20 in N e w C a s tl e , Es c o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . B u t w h e r e th e n e w s p a p e r s g o t t h e ir s t o r i e s y o u do not know? M R S H A I K : Ye s . W e d o n o t k n o w w h e r e t h e n e w s p a p e r s g o t i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t t h e r e w a s M d l u li R e p o r t th a t t a lk e d a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g . Page 165 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 MR SHAIK: That is correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t r e p o r t w a s d ir e c t e d t o w h o m ? M R S H A I K : To th e Pr e s i d e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e P r e s i d e n t . MR SHAIK: A n d t o th e – a n d t o th e M in is te r o f In t e l li g e n c e . The M i n is t e r o f S t a t e S e c u r i t y a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y j a y o u m a y c o n t in u e . 10 M R S H A I K : S o w e – s o A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a s u b j e c t t o th a t r e p o r t t o a v e r a c i ty t e s t t o s e e w h e t h e r e l e m e n t s o f t h a t r e p o r t is tr u t h f u l o r n o t tr u th f u l . A n d t h e c o n c lu s i o n … CHAIRPERSON: S o r r y j u s t t o m a k e s u r e w e a r e o n th e s a m e p a g e . W h a t w a s th e g is t o f t h a t r e p o r t a s y o u – a s y o u ? MR SHAIK: Th a t a g r o u p i n g o f p e o p le c a m e t o g e th e r M i n is te r s , n o n - M i n is t e r s c a m e to g e th e r in e i th e r N e w C a s t le o r E s c o r t a n d t h e y h a d a m e e ti n g a b o u t h o w to t o p p le P r e s i d e n t Z u m a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Zu m a . O k a y a lr i g h t . M R S H A I K : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n ti n u e . M R S H A I K : S o th a t r e p o r t – o u r r e p o r t o r t h e d o m e s ti c b r a n c h ’s r e p o r t o n t h a t r e p o r t w a s s u b m i t t e d v i a t h e o ff ic e o f A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a t o t h e M i n i s t e r a n d t h e n fr o m th e M i n is t e r to t h e P r e s i d e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Okay I know I was interrupting you. So Ambassador M a q e t u k a i n i ti a t e d a n in v e s t i g a t io n t o e s t a b li s h th e v e r a c i ty o f th e Page 166 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M d lu li R e p o r t ? M R S H A I K : O f t h e c l a i m s w i t h i n th e M d lu li R e p o r t c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: in v e s t i g a t io n J a c l a i m s in t h e M d lu li R e p o r t a n d t h e r e s u l t o f t h a t was a report fr o m yourself – fr o m your – fr o m I n t e lli g e n c e ? MR SHAIK: The SSA yes. CHAIRPERSON: W h i c h w a s t h e n s u b m i t t e d to t h e M in is t e r – M in is t e r o f I n te ll i g e n c e a n d u l ti m a t e l y t o t h e P r e s i d e n t . MR SHAIK: That is correct yes. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y c o n ti n u e . M R S H A I K : R ig h t . S o t h e P r e s id e n t s t a r ts w i t h o u r r e p o r t o n t h e M d lu li R e p o r t i n t h e m e e t i n g th a t w e n o w h a v e . A n d h e s a y s t h a t h e h a s r e a d o u r r e p o r t u n f o r tu n a t e ly h e b e li e v e s t h e M d l u l i R e p o r t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d s o to o d o e s t h e M i n i s t e r b e li e v e th e M d lu li R e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d h e f in d s t h a t o u r r e p o r t n o t t o b e s t a n d in g th e te s t o f ti m e . T h e – s o i n o th e r w o r d s h e w a s r e je c t in g o u r r e p o r t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MR SHAIK: And accepting the Mdluli Report. CHAIRPERSON: S o fr o m w h a t y o u s a i d i t a p p e a r s t h a t y o u r r e p o r t m u s t h a v e – m u s t h a v e b e e n c r it ic a l o f t h e c l a i m s m a d e i n th e M d lu li Report? MR SHAIK: Indeed it was. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s t h e n s a y i n g h e a n d t h e Page 167 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M i n is t e r o f I n t e l li g e n c e w e r e p e r s u a d e d b y th e M d lu li R e p o r t r a th e r t h a n b y y o u r r e p o r t? MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : D i d th e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t g iv e a n y f a c t u a l b a s is fo r r e j e c t in g w h a t h is s e c u r i ty o p e r a tiv e s h a v e to l d h i m ? 10 M R S H A I K : N o . To t h e b e s t o f m y r e c a ll h e d i d n o t . H e p r o n o u n c e d t h a t h e b e li e v e s t h e M d l u l i R e p o r t. A n d o f c o u r s e th a t s e t t h e t o n e o f o u r m e e t in g b e c a u s e e s s e n ti a l ly o u r r e p o r t t h a t r e j e c t e d t h e M d l u l i R e p o r t w a s n o w b e in g r e j e c te d b y t h e P r e s id e n t w h o w e a r e d i r e c t ly r e s p o n s i b l e to p r o v id in g i n t e l li g e n c e t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a l l t h r e e o f y o u a n d y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f t h is is n o t something you can say? All three of you were agreed that your report was the correct report? MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d y o u r r e p o r t w a s t h e p r o d u c t I t a k e it o f y o u r o w n i n v e s t ig a t io n s ? M R S H A I K : A n d a n a l y s is . A D V P R E TO R I U S : CHAIRPERSON: A n d a n a ly s i s . S o – s o i t m u s t h a v e b e e n q u i te s o m e t h i n g is i t n o t f o r – t o h a v e a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e t h e – t h e P r e s id e n t r e j e c t s a r e p o r t t h a t Page 168 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h r e e o f t h e m o s t s e n i o r p e o p le i n th e in t e lli g e n c e a c c e p t t o t h e c o r r e c t report. It must have been quite something to the three of you or not r e a l ly ? M R S H A I K : N o in t h e i n t e ll ig e n c e w o r ld t h a t is c o n s i d e r e d a – a g a i n I a m tr y in g t o fi n d t h e p o li t e w o r d . It i s c o n s i d e r e d to b e a la c k o f c o n fi d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A IK : T h e – t h a t w h e n a Pr e s id e n t w h o i s u l t i m a te ly r e s p o n s ib l e it is d i ff e r e n t th e P r e s i d e n t s a y i n g is – I d o n o t a c c e p t y o u r p o s i t io n o r I 10 d o n o t a c c e p t y o u r v i e w a b o u t a p a r t ic u l a r m a t t e r. B u t w h e n y o u h a v e w r i t t e n a r e p o r t a n d i n w h ic h y o u s a y th a t t h e a l l e g a ti o n s c o n ta in e d b y t h a t e l e m e n t w i t h i n g o v e r n m e n t – a n d i f y o u r e m e m b e r i t is C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e a n d h e s a y s , n o h e a g r e e s w i th th e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e R e p o r t h e i s j u s t – i t i s a v o t e o f n o c o n fi d e n c e i n y o u r c a p a c i t y. S o w e w e r e a l l ta k e n a b a c k . I w a s t a k e n a b a c k b e c a u s e a s I h a v e s a i d I h a v e a lo n g h is to r y w it h Pr e s id e n t Z u m a e s p e c i a l ly i n m a t t e r s o f i n t e l li g e n c e . A n d o n m a t t e r s o f i n te ll ig e n c e h e w o u ld k n o w t h a t y o u k n o w a ll o f u s h a v e a l o n g h is t o r y, a l l o f u s h a v e a l o n g w o r k i n g h i s t o r y w i t h h i m a n d t h a t i f o u r v i e w s a r e r e je c t e d i t i s a t o u g h o n e to d e a l w i th . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I g u e s s – I g u e s s it i s o n e t h i n g i f i t is a r e p o r t b y one person. M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e o f y o u . I t h in k t h e – t h e o n e t h in g th a t m a k e s it w o r s e is t h a t i t is – a s fa r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d a l l t h r e e o f y o u s a y t h is is th e r ig h t p o s i ti o n . Page 169 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d f o r t h a t t o b e r e j e c t e d b y t h e P r e s id e n t w o u ld b e q u i te s o m e t h i n g . MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V P R E TO R I U S : D i d t h e m a t t e r t h e n t u r n o r d id th e d is c u s s i o n th e n t u r n t o t h e is s u e s o f th e G u p t a i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? MR SHAIK: That is correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : W h a t tr a n s p ir e d ? 10 M R S H A IK : T h e – t o m y r e c a l l A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a o u t li n e d o u r in v e s t i g a t io n , th e r e a s o n s f o r o u r i n v e s t i g a t io n . He had a document w i t h h i m o u tl i n i n g t h e s c a n f o r th e r e a s o n t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . He took t h e P r e s i d e n t t h r o u g h t h e d is c u s s i o n t h a t w e h a v e h a d w i t h th e M i n is t e r. T h e a c r i m o n i o u s d is c u s s io n w i t h th e M i n i s t e r a n d s a id t o th e P r e s i d e n t th a t w e a r e h e r e t o s a y t h a t w e s h o u l d c o n d u c t th is in v e s t i g a t io n in t o th e G u p ta f a m il y. T h e P r e s id e n t a n d I m u s t s a y w i t h a l l d u e r e s p e c t t o th e P r e s i d e n t h e d id n o t g o o ff th e h a n d l e , h e d i d n o t s c r e a m o r s h o u t , h e s a id fi n e h e h e a r s u s . B u t h e w o u l d l ik e t o e x p l a i n t h e G u p ta f a m il y t o u s . 20 A n d t h e Pr e s id e n t w e n t in t o a r a t h e r l o n g e x p l a n a t io n a b o u t t h e G u p t a f a m i ly o f h o w h e fir s t m e t t h e m . Of how t h e y w e r e o f a s s i s ta n c e to D u d u z a n e Z u m a w h e n n o - o n e w a s g o i n g t o employ Duduzane. H o w t h e y h a v e h e lp e d h i m i n c e r ta i n o f h is o w n tr i a ls a n d tr ib u la t io n s . A n d h e – t h e y a r e s i m p l y a – a b u s i n e s s f a m il y a n d t h a t th e y w e r e i n f a c t in tr o d u c e d t o t h e A N C a n d t o p e o p le i n g o v e r n m e n t r a t h e r b y p e o p le a s s o c i a te d w it h Pr e s i d e n t M b e k i a n d i t is Page 170 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 – y o u k n o w – s o th e y a r e n o t a – a c r e a t i o n o f h is o w n m a k in g b u t t h is is a c o n ti n u a t i o n o f a – a r e l a ti o n s h i p th a t e x i s te d t h r o u g h t h e p a s s a g e o f ti m e s t a r ti n g w i t h t h e M b e k i a d m i n i s t r a t i o n . S o h e h a d a v e r y l o n g – h e w a s v e r y c a l m – h e w a s v e r y c l e a r, v e r y p o i n t e d i n – i n a ll o f t h e is s u e s l e a v i n g a n d s a y i n g t o u s t h a t h e d i d n o t t h i n k t h a t th e r e w a s a n is s u e t o b e i n v e s t ig a t e d . Yo u k n o w b e c a u s e h e u n d e r s ta n d s a l l t h e m a t t e r s c o n n e c t e d t o t h e G u p ta f a m ily. W e l is t e n e d v e r y p a in f u l ly – p a t ie n tl y. I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h e t h e r w e p u s h e d b a c k b u t i t w a s c l e a r t o m e t h a t a n d l a t e r w h e n I c h e c k e d w i t h t h e o t h e r s t h a t P r e s i d e n t Zu m a i n n o 10 u n c e r t a in t e r m s e x p r e s s e d h i s p r e f e r e n c e f o r n o i n v e s t ig a ti o n to c o n ti n u e . A D V P R E TO R I U S : D i d h e s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t f o r e i g n c a p i ta l a n d t h e purchase of the Uranium Mine? M R S H A IK : and I. N o t h a t – t h a t m a t t e r w a s d is c u s s e d p r e v io u s ly w i th h i m H e m a y h a v e a ll u d e d to i t i n t h is m e e t in g b u t t h a t w a s a p r e v i o u s ly – h e m a y a ll u d e d t o it . T h a t is a l o t o f s p e c u la t io n a n d r u m o u r s a b o u t th e G u p t a ’s b u t y o u k n o w t h is i s n o t t h e c a s e . T h e y a r e v e r y g o o d b u s in e s s p e o p le e t c e t e r a . rumours around them. 20 A n d t h a t t h e r e a r e a lo t o f A n d o f c o u r s e i t w a s a s s o c i a te d to th e – a n d p a r t o f a v ic ti m i s a t io n n a r r a tiv e . A v ic t i m i s a ti o n n a r r a t iv e a n d m e a n i n g t h a t – a n d t h is is w h a t h u r t m e m o r e t h a t i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n to t h e G u p t a ’s is b e c a u s e p e o p l e w a n ti n g t o g e t t o h i m a s t h e P r e s id e n t . S o h e s a w i t a s a p a r t o f a v i c t i m is a ti o n n a r r a tiv e a n d o f c o u r s e w h a t w a s s u r p r is i n g a n d I s a y h u r t f u l t o m e b e c a u s e I h a v e h a d a l o n g p e r s o n a l h i s to r y w i t h P r e s i d e n t Zu m a a n d s o d i d M a q e t u k a a n d s o d id G ib s o n a n d w e w e r e Page 171 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 s p e a k i n g t o h i m in h i s c a p a c i ty a s P r e s id e n t b u t n o t u n m in d fu l o f h i s o w n l o n g h i s to r y i n i n t e ll ig e n c e . A n d a s a n in t e l li g e n c e o ffi c e r h e s h o u l d h a v e u n d e r s t o o d w h a t w e w e r e s a y in g t h a t y o u k n o w t h is is a m a t t e r o f N a ti o n a l S e c u r i ty a n d i f y o u c o u l d s i m p ly p u t y o u r o w n fe e li n g a s i d e f o r t h e m o m e n t a n d s e e i t a s N a t i o n a l S e c u r i ty w e w o u l d t h e n b e a b l e a f te r t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n t o d e a l w i th t h e is s u e s i n s o f a r a s i t p e r t a i n s t o h i m . B u t I g o t a s e n s e b y t h e ti m e P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w a s v e r y m u c h w e d d e d to th e n a r r a tiv e t h a t t h e r e a r e p e o p l e tr y i n g t o t o p p l e h i m . T h e r e a r e – y o u k n o w s p ie s a r o u n d e v e r y c o r n e r w h o i s t r y i n g t o s e t 10 h i m u p a n d – a n d i t is n o t r e a l ly a b o u t t h e G u p t a ’s a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y it is a b o u t h i m . S o it w a s – a s h e c o n ti n u e d t o s p e a k i t b e c a m e a v e r y u n c o m f o r t a b l e d i s c u s s i o n f o r u s b e c a u s e I c o u l d n o t – I c o u ld n o t c a t e g o r ic a l ly s a y in m y o w n m in d t h a t h e w a s a c tu a lly s a y i n g th a t w e a r e p a r t o f t h o s e w h o w a n t t o t o p p l e h i m . B u t I – I w a s le f t w i t h t h a t f e e li n g a n d i t d id m a k e m e f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e u n c o m f o r t a b l e . A n d t h is i s a – a – a r e l a t i o n s h i p o f m a n y d e c a d e s w i t h Pr e s id e n t Z u m a a n d m y s e l f a n d I n e v e r i m a g i n e d t h a t I w o u l d e v e r b e i n th a t p o s i t io n w h e r e I w o u l d h a v e t o d o u b t w h e th e r h e a c t u a ll y tr u s ts m e o r n o t . S o i t f e lt o d d a n d a w k w a r d f o r m e p e r s o n a ll y. A n d I a m s u r e i t m u s t h a v e f e l t li k e th a t f o r 20 t h e o th e r s a s w e l l. A D V P R E TO R I U S : D id h e s p e c i fy h o w t h e G u p t a f a mi ly h a d h e l p e d h i m w i t h h is s o n D u d u z a n e ? M R S H A I K : Ye s if I r e c a l l h e m e n t i o n e d t h a t D u d u z a n e a t s o m e p o i n t w e n t t o In d i a fo r s t u d i e s a n d t h e n s t a y e d w i th t h e G u p t a f a m i ly o r g o t t o k n o w t h e G u p t a f a m il y t h e r e . And then when he came back they Page 172 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 c o n ti n u e d t h a t r e l a t i o n s h ip . A n d h e e l a b o r a t e d t h a t t h is w a s a r e l a ti o n s h i p th a t y o u k n o w d i d n o t b e g i n t o d a y, d i d n o t b e g in w h e n h e w a s a Pr e s i d e n t a n d b e g u n a lo n g ti m e a g o . And perhaps it even r e a c h e d i ts h e i g h t a t th e ti m e w h e r e h e w a s m o s t i n d e s p a ir a n d i t is n o t r e l a te d to h i m b e i n g P r e s i d e n t . Th e – s o I g o t – I g o t fi r ml y h e – a n d o f c o u r s e I h a v e h e a r d t h is b e fo r e a n d h e r e p e a t e d i t . But this ti m e h e r e p e a t e d i t i n t h e n a r r a ti v e o f p e o p l e w a n ti n g to t o p p l e h i m a n d e tc e t e r a . ADV PRETORIUS: 10 As s u m e f o r a m o m e n t t h a t t h e n a r r a t iv e a b o u t t h e G u p t a ’s a n d t h e i r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t w a s b e in g u s e d a s p a r t o f a c o n s p ir a c y t o h a r m o r d e t h r o n e P r e s i d e n t Zu m a . W o u l d th a t h a v e b e e n a n y r e a s o n t o s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M R S H A IK : N o . T h e – t h e b a s i s f o r t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s s i m p le . I t w a s i n o u r o p in io n a b r e a c h a t t h e h i g h e s t le v e l o f t h e l a n d . A n d t h e b r e a c h a g a i n i s e i t h e r i t w a s in f o r m a ti o n p e d d li n g o n t h e ir p a r t . A l e a k fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic e o r a s u g g e s t io n b y t h e m f o r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a M i n is te r. A n d in o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f in t e l li g e n c e i t w a s c l e a r in a t le a s t m y m in d th a t th e y w e r e a t te m p t i n g t o e n g a g e i n c r e a te d – c r e a t in g d e p e n d e n c y a n d o ft e n y o u c r e a t e d e p e n d e n c y t o e x t r a c t v a lu e . 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d w a s th is p e r h a p s n o t i n th e e x a c t te r ms y o u h a v e e x p r e s s e d n o w b u t w e r e t h e s e s e n ti m e n ts c o n v e y e d t o t h e f o r m e r President? M R S H A I K : Ye s t h e y w e r e c o n v e y e d t o t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t . ADV PRETORIUS: Yo u s a y i n y o u r s t a te m e n t in r e l a ti o n t o w h a t y o u r e c a l l a n d d o n o t r e c a ll a b o u t a s p e c i fi c in s tr u c t io n fr o m t h e Pr e s id e n t . Page 173 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 W e ll w h a t d o y o u s a y n o w a b o u t w h e th e r h e i n s tr u c t e d y o u o r n o t e x p r e s s ly to s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M R S H A IK : T h e P r e s i d e n t i n n o u n c e r t a i n t e r m s e x p r e s s e d h i s p o s i t iv e s e n ti m e n t t o w a r d s th e G u p t a ’s a n d i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e n a r r a t iv e t h a t h e o u tl i n e d t h a t t h e – t h a t t h e r e w e r e a t t e m p ts t o t o p p le h i m t h a t – I c a n o n ly b u t r e a d i n t o th e m a t t e r th a t i t w a s th e n o n - v e r b a l w a y o f in s t r u c t i n g u s n o t t o c o n t in u e w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . A n d I – I l e f t – I le f t th e m e e ti n g w i t h n o u n c e r t a in t e r m s t h a t t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n s h o u l d n o t c o n t in u e . N o t b e c a u s e i t w a s n e c e s s i t a t e d b u t b e c a u s e t h i s is t h e 10 w i s h o f t h e Pr e s id e n t t h a t i t s h o u l d n o t h a p p e n . A D V P R E TO R I U S : Right. S o d o I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m th a t a n s w e r t h a t t h e r e w a s n o e x p r e s s i n s tr u c t io n ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : I n a s m a n y w o r d s , s t o p th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . M R S H A I K : Ye s h e d id n o t s a y, s t o p th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n A D V P R E TO R I U S : Yo u w e r e le f t w i t h a c e r ta i n i m p r e s s i o n a t th e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e m e e t i n g w h ic h y o u h a v e n o w e x p r e s s e d t o th e C h a ir. MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : D id y o u a c t o n y o u r c o n c l u s i o n ? 20 M R S H A I K : S h a m e f u l ly I w o u l d h a v e t o s a y s o m e th i n g r a th e r s h a m e fu l h e r e t h a t I t h i n k w e le f t t h e m e e t in g w i t h t h e v i e w th a t th e in v e s ti g a t io n s h o u l d n o t c o n t i n u e . A n d if i t d o e s c o n t i n u e i t is g o in g to c o n t i n u e a t the cost of our jobs. B u t o f c o u r s e w e a ls o l e ft t h e m e e t i n g w it h t h e v ie w th a t o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th th e M in is t e r h a d b r o k e n d o w n . N o w o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t h a s b r o k e n d o w n a n d i n – i n n o t s o Page 174 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 p o li t e la n g u a g e s t u ff w a s g o i n g t o h i t th e f a n r a t h e r s o o n . S o w e – w e – I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e – th e d o m e s t i c b r a n c h i s g o i n g to c o n ti n u e t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o r n o t b u t I t h i n k w e w e r e o f t h e v i e w th a t w e w il l n o t c o n ti n u e t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . A D V P R E TO R I U S : O n r e fl e c t io n h o w d i d y o u r e g a r d t h e a t ti t u d e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t i n r e la t io n to s e c u r i ty m a t t e r s i n g e n e r a l a n d th is m a t t e r i n p a r t ic u l a r ? M R S H A IK : I th i n k t h e – t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s – h e d is r e g a r d e d h i s o w n e x p e r i e n c e i n th is m a tt e r. 10 H e d is r e g a r d e d t h e c o l l e c ti v e p r o f e s s i o n a l a d v ic e o f t h r e e o f th e to p s e n i o r D ir e c to r s a n d D ir e c to r G e n e r a ls o f th e in t e l li g e n c e c o m m u n it y t h a t w a s a d v is in g t h a t th e r e is a l e g i ti m a t e a n d w a r r a n t e d b a s is f o r in v e s ti g a t i o n . A n d I t h i n k i n t h a t r e g a r d h e d i d n o t p r o p e r ly a p p ly h is m i n d t o – to h is o b li g a ti o n to – to p r o v i d e e ff e c ti v e a n d e ff ic ie n t d ir e c ti o n o f t h e In t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s . A n d I t h i n k – I t h in k t h e c o u n t r y h a s p a i d t h e p r ic e a s a r e s u lt t h e r e o f . A D V P R E TO R I U S : H o w d i d y o u f e e l a s a s e n io r s e c u r i ty o ff ic ia l a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g h a d c o n c l u d e d ? M R S H A I K : W e l l I t h in k th e – t o h a v e t h e P r e s i d e n t r e j e c t y o u r a d v is e is – is – w h e n y o u a r e t h e – in t h e t o p e c h e lo n s o f th e i n t e l li g e n c e 20 s e r v ic e s a v e r y d i ffi c u l t t h i n g to d e a l w i t h . B e c a u s e lik e I h a v e s a i d it is – i t is – y o u a r e a p p o in t e d a s a H e a d o f a n I n te ll ig e n c e S e r v i c e s b e c a u s e y o u b e li e v e th a t y o u h a v e c e r t a i n q u a l it i e s a n d o n e o f th e i m p o r t a n t q u a l it i e s o f a n i n te ll i g e n c e h e a d is th e a b il i ty n o t o n ly t o l e a d a s e r v ic e b u t t o a b le t o m a n a g e i n fo r m a t i o n d i s c r e e t ly w i t h d is c r e t io n , w i t h a n a l y s i s a n d w h e n a H e a d o f a n I n t e ll i g e n c e S e r v ic e a n d w h e n Page 175 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 t h r e e o f t h e m s a y t o y o u t h a t Si r w e t h i n k th is i n v e s ti g a t i o n is w a r r a n t e d a n d f o r th e Pr e s id e n t t o s a y, i n n o t s o m a n y w o r d s , n o i t is n o t . I t i s – it i s a – it i s a b i g t h i n g in th e in t e l li g e n c e w o r ld . I t is a p u t d o w n t h a t y o u w o u l d s p e n d lo ts o f h o u r s r e fl e c ti n g o n . B e c a u s e i t is a f u n d a m e n t a l b r e a c h o f t h e tr u s t r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n y o u a n d t h e President. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I d o n o t k n o w h o w C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e r a n k s w h e n c o m p a r e d t o th e In t e l li g e n c e b r a n c h e s t h a t th e t h r e e o f y o u w e r e d e a li n g w it h o r is t w o a n d t h e n t h e H e a d . 10 M R S H A I K : T h e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o - t w o u n i ts . Yo u , Mr M a q e t u k a a n d Mr N je n j e . M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m j u s t tr y i n g to r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e t h r e e u n i ts . N o . I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e t w o u n i ts . M R S H A I K : Tw o u n i ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e in t e r n a l a n d th e e x te r n a l ? MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n Mr M a q e tu k a w a s th e H e a d o f a c o m b i n a t io n of the two? 20 MR SHAIK: That is correct. CHAIRPERSON: i m p o r t a n t. Ja. I - I t a k e i t t h a t C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e w a s q u i t e Maybe might not have been at the same level as the I n t e lli g e n c e o r S e c r e t - S t a te S e c u r it y D e p a r t m e n t t h a t M r M a q e t u k a was heading. MR SHAIK: That is correct. Page 176 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: Those were two … M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i ff e r e n t . MR SHAIK: A n d - a n d w h a t w a s u n iq u e i n o u r s it u a ti o n t h a t M r M a q e t u k a o r A m b a s s a d o r M a q e tu k a h a d t h e f u l l a u th o r it y o f a D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l i n S S A . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R S H A I K : H e i s t h e A c c o u n t in g O ff ic e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR SHAIK: D ir e c to r N j e n j e a t t h e t i m e w a s a D i r e c t o r - a p p o i n te d a t t h e le v e l o f a D ir e c to r - G e n e r a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d s o to w a s I a n A c c o u n t i n g O ffi c e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R S H A I K : W h e r e a s th e C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e D iv is i o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : I s a D i v is i o n … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : O f a l a r g e o r g a n is a ti o n i n w h i c h th e r e a r e m a n y … CHAIRPERSON: SAPS? M R S H A I K : S A P S i n w h ic h th e r e a r e m a n y d iv is io n s . S o … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: A g a i n i t i s t h e l e v e l o f t h e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l’s is m u c h Page 177 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 h i g h e r t h a n t h e le v e l o f a d iv is i o n a l h e a d . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m a n d - a n d o f c o u r s e t h e r e is n o t j u s t o n e … M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : P e r s o n a t th e l e v e l o f D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l. I t is t h r e e … MR SHAIK: It is three. C H A I R P E R S O N : S e n i o r o ff ic ia ls . M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o a r e a t th a t l e v e l a s … MR SHAIK: Correct. 10 CHAIRPERSON: As well and the department th a t A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a w a s h e a d i n g a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t f r o m w h ic h a ll t h r e e o f y o u c a m e o r t h e d e p a r t m e n t y o u w e r e s e r v in g d i ff e r e n t u n i ts t w o d i ffe r e n t u n i ts . Wa s t h e o n e t h a t e ffe c tiv e l y s p e c i a lis e s o n I n t e lli g e n c e ? MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: g e n e r a l ly. Crime In t e l li g e n c e is just part of I n t e ll ig e n c e S o - s o th is w a s n o t j u s t a c a s e o f th e Pr e s i d e n t n o t a g r e e i n g w i th y o u r r e p o r t , b u t a ls o i t w a s a q u e s t io n o f h i m n o t a g r e e i n g w i th y o u r r e p o r t in p r e fe r e n c e to w h a t - w h a t o t h e r r e p o r t ? 20 MR SHAIK: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: S o - s o i f i t w a s - y o u r r e p o r t w a s s t a n d in g a lo n g m a y b e i t m i g h t h a v e b e e n o n e th in g , b u t i t w a s a c o m p a r is o n . MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I c a n i m a g i n e t h a t y o u m u s t h a v e f e l t - a l l th r e e o f y o u m u s t h a v e b e i n g - f e l t q u i te b a d . Page 178 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : W e d id . W e d i d , s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : Th e - a n d o f c o u r s e th e - a d d e d t o t h e m a t t e r is t h e lo n g h is t o r ie s t h a t w e h a v e w i t h t h e - w i th P r e s i d e n t Z u m a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : W e h a v e a d v is e d h i m t h r o u g h m a n y p a r ts o f h is li f e . W h e n h e w a s th e H e a d o f I n t e lli g e n c e . W h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e A N C ? M R S H A I K : Ye s a n d w h e n - i n t h e A N C . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d w h e n h e h a d c e r t a i n d i ffic u l ti e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d n o w th a t h e w a s th e Pr e s i d e n t . S o … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : Yo u - y o u m a y n o t b e h a p p y o n t h e w a y I p r e s e n t e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : My - m y a d v ic e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : B u t w h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e t o a c c e p t is t h a t … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : T h e s i n c e r i ty o f my a d v i c e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: Cannot be … CHAIRPERSON: Questioned? M R S H A I K : Q u e s t io n e d … Page 179 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d I t h in k w e fe l t t h a t h e q u e s t io n e d t h e s i n c e r i t y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : O f o u r a d v ic e a n d th a t m a d e - m a d e u s f e e l … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: Uncomfortable … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : A n d in t h e - in t h e w o r ld o f N e w A g e a n d t h e w o r ld w h i c h w e s h o u l d l iv e i n . I n t h e w o r ld o f e m p a t h y it w a s d i ffi c u l t t o d e a l w it h . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t g o in g b a c k t o t h e m e e t in g w i t h h i m . A m I r i g h t t o u n d e r s t a n d th a t th e r e w a s a b ig d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e a t m o s p h e r e u n d e r w h i c h y o u r m e e t in g w it h th e P r e s id e n t w a s c o n d u c t e d c o m p a r e d t o t h e a t m o s p h e r e w h ic h p r e v a i l e d a t t h e m e e t in g y o u h a d w i th t h e M i n is t e r. T h e o n e w i th t h e M in is t e r h a v in g b e e n v e r y c o n fr o n ta t io n a l a n d th e o n e w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t s e e m i n g l y fr o m w h a t y o u s a y h a v i n g b e e n v e r y c iv il a n d p o li t e . A m I r i g h t ? M R S H A I K : T h a t i s c o r r e c t . I t w a s v e r y c i v il . Ve r y p o li t e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R S H A I K : A n d I w o u l d a d d o n e m o r e . I t w a s p r e s c r i p ti v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : Ye s . I n t h e s e n s e t h a t th e P r e s i d e n t w a s s p e a k i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : G iv i n g h i s v i e w s . W e w e r e l is t e n in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 180 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : W h e r e w e c o u l d p u s h b a c k w e p u s h e d b a c k . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : B u t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R S H A I K : T h e m o r e h e s p o k e th e m o r e w e r e tr e a t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : I n t o t h e p o s i ti o n o f . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: S o - s o w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y it w a s a m e e ti n g w h e r e b o t h s id e s w e r e li s te n i n g to e a c h o th e r ? 10 T h e y m ig h t n o t h a v e a g r e e d , b u t t h e y w e r e li s t e n i n g t o e a c h o t h e r - t o e a c h o t h e r ’s p o in ts o f v ie w o r i s t h a t n o t a p r o p e r d e s c r ip t io n ? M R S H A I K : I t w o u ld - i t w o u l d b e a p r o p e r d e s c r ip t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : To th e e x te n t th a t w e w e r e lis t e n i n g m o r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R S H A I K : A s th e - P r e s i d e n t Zu m a s p o k e m o r e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R S H A I K : B u t I t h i n k h e u n d e r s t o o d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R S H A I K : Th e r e a s o n w h y w e w e r e a r g u i n g t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n in v e s t i g a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. M R S H A I K : T h a t I - I w a s l e f t w i t h n o u n c e r ta i n a t l e a s t i n m y m in d a n d f o r a c o u p l e o f r e a s o n s . O n e is t h a t w e w e r e a r t ic u l a te . T h e s e c o n d , t h e r e a s o n s w e g a v e w e r e c o m p e ll in g a n d th ir d l y th a t g i v e n h i s o w n Page 181 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 e x p e r i e n c e in I n te ll i g e n c e th a t h e k n e w w h a t w e w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t. CHAIRPERSON: D i d h e r a is e t h i s i s s u e o f M r N je n je ’s c o n f lic t o f in t e r e s t o r b u s i n e s s i n t e r e s t th a t … MR SHAIK: No. He did not. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e M i n i s t e r h a d r a is e d ? MR SHAIK: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d i d n o t r a is e th a t i s s u e ? MR SHAIK: No. He did not. CHAIRPERSON: 10 S o w a s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t a s f a r a s y o u c o u l d s e e h e g a v e y o u t h is l o n g e x p l a n a t io n t h a t h e g a v e y o u , b e c a u s e h e w a n te d y o u t o b e p e r s u a d e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r - f o r t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . Is t h a t h o w - h o w y o u w o u l d s e e it ? M R S H A I K : T h a t i s - t h a t is t h e w a y I - I s a w i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w y o u s a w - y o u s a i d y o u s a w it . M R S H A I K : T h a t h e w a s g i v i n g t h i s lo n g e x p l a n a t io n s o t h a t w e c o u l d b e p e r s u a d e d t o th e b e li e v e th a t n o - n o in v e s t ig a ti o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : W a s n e c e s s a r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . 20 MR SHAIK: O f c o u r s e h e a d d e d i t i n t h e c o n te x t o f t h e n a r r a ti v e s to d is p o s e h i m a n d t h e v ic t i m is a t i o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : N a r r a ti v e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. M R S H A I K : W h ic h - w h ic h m a d e i t d i ff ic u l t fo r u s t o p u s h b a c k o n … Page 182 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. MR SHAIK: B e c a u s e h e r e is a P r e s i d e n t t e l li n g y o u th a t p e o p le a r e tr y i n g t o t o p p l e m e . I a m g iv in g y o u a n e x p la n a ti o n th a t m y r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h t h i s f a m ily i s - is u n t o w a r d a n d i f y o u a r e p u s h i n g b a c k o n r e a s o n w h y w e - w e n e e d t o in v e s t ig a t e th e f a m il y. I t i s - i t i s a s i f h e is s a y in g th a t , b u t y o u a r e th e g u y s w h o w a n t t o t o p p le m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o th e o n e th in g y o u a r e c l e a r a b o u t . H e d i d n o t s a y s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? MR SHAIK: He did not say stop. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h e s e c o n d th in g y o u a r e c l e a r a b o u t . H e t o o k ti m e t o e x p l a i n h is r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th t h e G u p t a s a n d s o o n a n d s o o n a n d th r e e , i t w a s q u i te c l e a r t h a t h e w a s a g a i n s t t h e c o n ti n u a t i o n o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n . M R S H A I K : T h a t i s t h e c o r r e c t … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : H is v i e w w a s a g a i n s t i t ? M R S H A I K : Ye s . H i s v i e w w a s a g a in s t i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s a g a i n s t it . J a . M R S H A I K : O r p u t b e t t e r h e d i d n o t t h in k it n e c e s s a r y. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Did not think it was. 20 M R S H A I K : G iv e n th e fa c t t h a t h e w a s p r o v id i n g t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : T h e b a c k g r o u n d t o … ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t h e k n e w. M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n y o u s a y h e th e n p u t i n t h is b i d t h a t a s I Page 183 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 understand it. Yo u m u s t te ll m e i f I a m n o t u n d e r s t a n d i n g y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c tly. H e th e n p u t i n t h is l it t le b i t th a t w a s t o o t h e e ffe c t t h a t t h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o - t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e w h o w a n te d t o t o p p le him. Wa s - w a s y o u r i m p r e s s i o n fr o m t h e d i s c u s s io n a n d fr o m w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t i f th e th r e e o f y o u w e r e t o p u s h a n d s a y - a s s u m i n g y o u c o u l d - w e r e to p u s h a n d s a y w e w a n t t o c o n ti n u e . Yo u - h e m i g h t s e e y o u a s p a r t o f p e o p l e w h o w a n t e d t o t o p p l e h i m o r w h a t. M R S H A I K : Ye s . T h a t - t h a t d i d o c c u r t o m e in a l l … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : H o n e s ty. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t y o u a ls o s a i d t h e d is c u s s io n w a s s u c h t h a t a l t h o u g h h e d id n o t s a y y o u th r e e w e r e a p a r t o f t h a t, b u t y o u fe l t s o m e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] M R S H A I K : N o . H e d i d n o t s a y th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u fe l t s o m e i m p r e s s i o n th a t h e m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n s u r e th a t y o u a r e n o t o f it o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t. M R S H A I K : Ye s a n d d o n o t f o r g e t s ir t h a t w e a r e - w e a r e I n t e l li g e n c e O ff ic e r s i n o u r o w n r i g h t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d j o in in g t h e d o t s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R S H A I K : I s n o t a d i ff ic u l t e x e r c is e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . Ye s . M R S H A I K : A t t h a t - t h a t le v e l . Page 184 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R S H A I K : S o o n e o f th e d o ts t h a t w a s j o in e d i n m y m i n d … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R S H A I K : A n d I a m n o t s p e a k i n g o n b e h a l f o f a n y o n e e ls e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : I n m y mi n d th a t p u s h in g th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n f u r t h e r … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR SHAIK: Was going to lead in my view … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 M R S H A I K : To th e Pr e s i d e n t c o n c l u d i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR SHAIK: That we are part of those now … CHAIRPERSON: Of whatever agenda. M R S H A I K : J a . T h e f ic t io n a l o r n o n - fi c t i o n a l a n d - a n d I m u s t s a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : T h a t i t is fic t io n a l … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR SHAIK: But it was going to lead … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R S H A I K : To th a t . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. G o i n g b a c k t o t h e i s s u e o f w h o d ir e c ts t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f … M R S H A I K : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e l li g e n c e . Yo u s a i d t h a t t h e M i n is te r s h o u l d n o t … M R S H A I K : Ye s . Page 185 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: Be doing that. At some stage we talked about the H e a d o f th e I n te ll ig e n c e b e i n g t h e o n e d o i n g th a t , b u t a t s o m e s ta g e m a y b e - m a y b e t w o ti m e s o r s o y o u t a l k e d a b o u t - y o u ta lk e d i n a m a n n e r th a t m a d e m e b e l ie v e th a t i t w o u l d b e w i t h i n t h e p r e r o g a ti v e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t to d i r e c t o p e r a t io n s … MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f - o f In t e l li g e n c e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR SHAIK: C o r r e c t. I m e a n t h e - t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l s ta t e s i t. T h e - q u i te c a t e g o r ic a l ly u n d e r S e c t io n 2 - 0 - 9 - ( 2 ) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR SHAIK: “ T h e P r e s id e n t is t h e H e a d o f t h e N a t i o n a l E x e c u t iv e . M u s t a p p o in t a w o m a n o r a m a n a s th e H e a d o f e a c h I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e e s t a b lis h e d i n t e r m s o f s u b s e c t io n 1 a n d m u s t e it h e r a s s u m e p o li t ic a l r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r t h e c o n tr o l a n d d ir e c ti o n …” CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR SHAIK: “ … d ir e c ti o n o f a n y o f th e s e r v i c e s o r d e s i g n a t e a 20 Member of Cabinet to do so.” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : S o t h e Pr e s id e n t d o e s h a v e - h e d o e s h a v e th e p o w e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : To d ir e c t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 186 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 M R S H A I K : A n d o f c o u r s e a n d t h is i s p e r h a p s s o m e t h in g th a t a r is in g o u t o f y o u r - y o u r o w n r e p o r t s ir w o u ld b e t o te a s e o u t t h is d e fi n i ti o n o f p o li t ic a l r e s p o n s i b i li ty. W h a t d o e s p o li ti c a l r e s p o n s i b i li t y m e a n , b u t t h a t is - is a n is s u e th a t w e s h o u ld p a r k f o r - f o r y o u r r e p o r t , b u t in m y v ie w t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s t h e p o w e r t o d ir e c t t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e S e r v ic e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - n o th a t is - t h a t is fi n e . I th in k t h a t p e o p l e lik e y o u w h o h a v e e x p e r i e n c e a n d k n o w le d g e o f t h e I n t e l li g e n c e n e e d to s h o w s u ff ic ie n t i n t e r e s t i n t h e w o r k o f th e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n c o u l d m a k e , b e c a u s e y o u b e i n g 10 t h e e x p e r ts i n th e a r e a . I t w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t t h a t w h e n t h e C o m m i s s io n lo o k s a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o r in v i t e s - I m e a n s u b m is s i o n s t h a t s o m e - s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o h a v e e x p e r tis e a n d e x p e r i e n c e . Could make some s u b m is s io n s to s a y t h e C o m m is s i o n s h o u l d c o n s i d e r t h e f o l lo w i n g p o s s i b le r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t c o u l d a s s i s t in t h e f u t u r e w i th r e g a r d t o I n t e lli g e n c e . S o - s o - b u t g o i n g b a c k t o y o u r m e e ti n g w i t h t h e P r e s id e n t. S o - s o y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w o u l d th e r e fo r e b e th a t o n c e t h e P r e s i d e n t o n c e i t is c le a r f r o m w h a t t h e P r e s id e n t s a y s t h a t h e is n o t a p p r o v i n g 20 t h e p u r s u i t o f a c e r ta i n in v e s ti g a t io n . S in c e u l ti m a t e l y t h e p o w e r to d ir e c t th e o p e r a t i o n s o f I n te ll ig e n c e v e r s e in h i m . Yo u - y o u w o u l d h a v e n o c h o ic e b u t t o a c c e p t t h a t s i t u a t io n ? MR SHAIK: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d u lt i m a t e ly I u n d e r s t a n d y o u d id a c c e p t th a t Page 187 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 s i tu a ti o n ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : S o t o s u m m a r is e a t th e p o i n t t h a t y o u d e p a r t e d fr o m t h e M in is t e r - i n t h e m e e t in g w it h t h e Mi n is te r I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r evidence and correct me if I am wrong to be that the three senior E x e c u t iv e s w e r e d e te r m i n e d t o c o n t i n u e w i t h th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n s u b j e c t t o a d is c u s s i o n w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : Yo u w e n t to a m e e t i n g w it h t h e P r e s i d e n t w h e r e t o 10 y o u r k n o w le d g e h e e x e r c i s e d h is c o n s ti t u ti o n a l p o w e r s a n d i n fl u e n c e ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e r e s u l t o f th a t in t e r v e n ti o n w a s t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n w a s t e r m i n a t e d ? MR SHAIK: Correct. A D V P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir it is p a s t 5 o ’ c l o c k . W e h a v e a w a y t o g o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d … CHAIRPERSON: No. A D V P R E TO R I U S : T h e r e i s m u c h t o b e d o n e b e f o r e to m o r r o w. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . S h o u l d w e s t a r t a li t tl e e a r l ie r t o m o r r o w ? Maybe. A D V P R E TO R I U S : B e c a u s e w e h a v e to c o n s u l t … C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e W e d n e s d a y is a n o t h e r w i tn e s s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : I w o u l d p r e fe r i f w e s t a r t e d a t t h e n o r m a l ti m e … CHAIRPERSON: At 10. Page 188 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d a t t e m p t to f in is h … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V P R E TO R I U S : To m o r r o w. CHAIRPERSON: J a a n d - a n d y o u t h i n k y o u w i ll m a n a g e o r y o u s a y y o u w il l c r o s s t h e b r id g e w h e n y o u c o m e to i t ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : C h a ir o n e is r e l u c ta n t , b e c a u s e - b e c a u s e m u c h o f t h is e v id e n c e fo r ms t h e b a c k g r o u n d t o e v id e n c e th a t w i ll c o m e la t e r. O n e is r e l u c t a n t t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t to d o j u s ti c e . 10 A D V P R E TO R I U S : D iv e s t o n e s e l f o f t h e a d v a n t a g e o f h e a r i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V P R E TO R I U S : S e n io r o ff ic ia ls in t h e in v e s ti g a t io n s , b e c a u s e th e q u e s t io n o f a c c o u n t a b i li ty, t h e q u e s ti o n o f c o n tr o ls , th e q u e s ti o n o f fi n a n c i a l a c c o u n t a b i li ty a n d s u p e r v is i o n a l l a r e c e n tr a l t o e v i d e n c e t h a t is to c o m e . I n o th e r w o r d s t o a n s w e r t h e q u e s t io n d i d y o u p o s e . H o w did it happen? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s . S o o k a y. W e w il l - w e w ill s t a r t a t 1 0 t o m o r r o w a n d th e n s e e h o w i t g o e s , b u t b e f o r e w e a d j o u r n I j u s t w a n t t o p u t t h i s q u e s ti o n a n d m a y b e y o u d o n o t h a v e a n a n s w e r t o i t . D o - d o 20 y o u k n o w fr o m t h e p o in t o f y o u - o f I n te lli g e n c e w h a t s h o u l d h a p p e n w h e n t h e I n t e l li g e n c e b r a n c h h a s g o t in f o r m a t io n t h a t n e e d s to b e - t h a t h a s g o t a n i s s u e t h a t n e e d s t o b e i n v e s t ig a te d o r p e o p le t h a t n e e d n e e d t o b e i n v e s t ig a t e d , b u t t h e H e a d o f t h e I n t e ll ig e n c e o r t h e M i n is t e r o f I n te ll i g e n c e o r t h e Pr e s id e n t is c o n f li c t e d . W e ll I a m - I a m a s k i n g all three because … Page 189 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 MR SHAIK: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t c o u ld b e d i ff e r e n t . D o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e p o s i t io n w o u ld b e w i th th e - a t t h a t t i m e A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a i f th e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g a n d m a y b e a fr ie n d o f h is s e e m s t o b e in v e s ti g a t e d . w o u ld h e - w o u ld h e d e a l w i th th a t s i t u a t io n ? What W o u ld h e ta k e p a r t i n m a k i n g a n y d e c is i o n s o r w o u l d h e d is c l o s e o r w o u l d h e n o t b e p a r t o f i t a n d th e n … M R S H A I K : Si r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n d e a l w i t h t h e M i n is t e r a s w e l l. A l t h o u g h y o u 10 m i g h t h a v e d e a l t w i th a n d t h e n I c o m e t o t h e P r e s i d e n t . MR SHAIK: In - i n t h e m a t t e r o f g o v e r n a n c e i n r e l a t i o n to a l l o f t h is w i t h A m b a s s a d o r M a q e t u k a i t i s e a s y. Yo u c a n g o a b o v e t o t h e M i n is t e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R S H A I K : A n d - a n d t h e n c o n v i n c e th e M i n is t e r t h a t t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n n e e d s t o h a p p e n e tc e t e r a . I f - a n d i f t h e r e w a s n o M in is t e r y o u c a n g o t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t a n d ju s t i fy a n i n v e s ti g a t io n o r a n o ff ic ia l o r a n o th e r M i n is t e r, b e c a u s e in e ff e c t t h a t is w h a t h a p p e n s o n C o u n t e r I n t e l li g e n c e in v e s t i g a t io n s , b u t w h e n it c o m e s t o a m a t t e r p e r t a in i n g t o t h e 20 P r e s i d e n t h i m s e l f w h e r e - t h a t is w h e r e t h e C o n s t it u ti o n th e la w i s a ls o s il e n t , b e c a u s e i t w a s n e v e r a s it u a ti o n e n v is a g e d a n d e v e n i f it w a s e n v is a g e d t h e w a y t o d e a l w i t h t h e m a t t e r I h a v e n o o t h e r - n o - I c a n n o t th i n k o f a n y o t h e r w a y. I c a n t h i n k a b o u t w h i s t l e b lo w in g . I c a n t h in k a b o u t p r o v i d i n g t h is k i n d o f in f o r m a t io n t o - t o t h e J o i n t S t a n d in g C o m m i t te e o f Page 190 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 I n t e lli g e n c e , b u t a l l o f t h e m w o u ld c o m e u p w it h th e s a m e p r o b l e m a n d t h is b e g g a r s th e q u e s ti o n th a t h a s a l w a y s b e e n t h e c a s e . W h o g u a r d s t h e g u a r d ia n s a n d t h a t i s t h e e s s e n c e y o u a r e d e a li n g w i th h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l - w e l l t h e r e is e n o u g h t i m e f o r u s t o p o n d e r o v e r t h e is s u e t o t h e e x te n t t h a t i t is r e l e v a n t , b u t t h e r e - I t h in k t h e r e is a p r o v i s i o n in t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n w h ic h i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tly is a l o n g th e l in e s t h a t w h e n th e Pr e s i d e n t is c o n fl ic t e d . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i t s i m p ly s a y s h e is n o t a v a il a b l e to - t o p e r fo r m a c e r t a in d u ty t h e D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t s h o u ld p e r fo r m th e d u t y. N o w i t m a y b e th a t I d o n o t k n o w i f it i s a r o u n d 2 - 0 - 9 o r 1 9 0 . 10 I t m a y b e t h a t t h e r e m ig h t b e d e b a t e s i f it s a y s n o t a v a il a b l e . There m i g h t b e d e b a t e s a b o u t w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a t w o u ld e n c o m p a s s a s i tu a ti o n . No. I t is n o t 2 - 0 - 9 . M a y b e 1 9 0 . W h e th e r i t w o u ld e n c o m p a s s a s i t u a t io n w h e r e p h y s i c a ll y t h e Pr e s i d e n t is a v a il a b l e , b u t m a y b e le g a l ly h e i s n o t a v a il a b l e t o p e r f o r m t h e d u t y, b e c a u s e h e s h o u l d n o t d o s o , b e c a u s e h e is c o n fl ic t e d . A D V P R E TO R I U S : S e c ti o n 9 0 ( 1 ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t S e c t io n 9 0 ? MR SHAIK: 91. 20 A D V P R E TO R I U S : 9 0 ( 1 ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o y o u w a n t to r e a d i t Mr P r e t o r iu s ? A D V P R E TO R I U S : I t r e a d s u n d e r t h e h e a d in g A c ti n g Pr e s i d e n t : C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : “ W h e n th e P r e s i d e n t is a b s e n t fr o m t h e R e p u b l ic o r o t h e r w is e u n a b l e t o f u l fi l t h e d u ti e s o f Page 191 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 P r e s i d e n t o r d u r i n g a v a c a n c y in th e O ffi c e o f th e P r e s i d e n t a n O ff ic e r B e a r e r in t h e O r d e r b e l o w a c ts a s Pr e s i d e n t . ” A n d t h e n i t l is ts : “ A , t h e D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t . ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : President. “B, a M i n is t e r by th e C , a M i n i s t e r d e s ig n a te d b y t h e o t h e r M e m b e r s o f t h e C a b i n e t. 10 designated D , t h e S p e a k e r u n ti l t h e N a t io n a l A s s e m b ly d e s ig n a te s o n e o f it s o t h e r members.” And then two: “An Ac t in g Pr e s i d e n t has th e r e s p o n s i b il it i e s , p o w e r s a n d f u n c ti o n s o f th e P r e s i d e n t . ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h in k - I t h i n k t h a t i s th e o n e I h a d i n m i n d . S o o n e o f t h e s c e n a r io s is w h e r e i t s a y s w h e r e t h e P r e s i d e n t is o t h e r w is e u n a b l e to f u l f il t h e d u t i e s . T h e r e m a y b e a n a r g u m e n t t h a t i t c a t e r s f o r a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e h e is p h y s i c a ll y a v a il a b l e … M R S H A I K : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: But … M R S H A I K : B u t c o n fl ic t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r s o m e r e a s o n … MR SHAIK: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : U n a v a i la b le . M R S H A I K : Ye s . Page 192 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e b e c a u s e h e is c o n f lic t e d . Maybe because of s o m e o th e r r e a s o n th e r e m a y b e , b u t a l s o I th i n k th e e th ic s - E x e c u t iv e E t h i c s Ac t if I a m n o t m is t a k e n m a y b e h a v i n g s o m e t h i n g a b o u t … M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O r m a y b e e v e n th e C o n s t i tu t io n m a y b e h a v i n g s o m e t h i n g to s a y M e m b e r s o f th e E x e c u tiv e s h o u l d n o t a c t i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e th e y a r e c o n f lic t e d , b u t w e d o n o t n e e d t o lo o k a t it n o w. S o I - I w a s j u s t t h i n k in g w h e t h e r i n t h a t k i n d o f s i tu a ti o n w h e t h e r h e s h o u ld h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e m a t t e r h i m s e l f o r h e s h o u l d h a v e 10 le t s o m e b o d y e l s e d e a l w i th i t, b u t … M R S H A I K : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W e - w e m i g h t l o o k a t i t c lo s e r t o t h e t i m e o f th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a n d t h e d e b a t e s a n d s u b m is s i o n s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : S e c ti o n 9 6 ( 2 ) … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V P R E TO R I U S : A n d 9 6 ( 1 ) a l s o r e fe r t o th e C o d e o f E t h i c s t o w h ic h you referred. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V P R E TO R I U S : 20 “ M e m b e r s o f t h e C a b i n e t a n d D e p u ty M i n is t e r s m u s t a c t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th t h e C o d e o f E t h i c s p r e s c r ib e d b y N a t io n a l L e g i s l a ti o n . M e m b e r s o f th e C a b in e t a n d D e p u ty M i n is t e r s m a y n o t u n d e r t a k e a n y o t h e r p a i d w o r k , a c t in a w a y t h a t is in c o n s is t e n t w it h t h e ir o ff ic e o r e x p o s e t h e m s e lv e s t o a n y s i t u a t i o n i n v o lv in g t h e r i s k o f a c o n f li c t Page 193 of 194 25 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 192 b e t w e e n t h e i r o ffic i a l r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s a n d p r iv a t e in t e r e s ts o r u s e th e ir p o s i ti o n o r a n y i n f o r m a ti o n e n tr u s t e d to them to enrich t h e m s e lv e s or i m p r o p e r ly b e n e f i t a n y o th e r p e r s o n . ” C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o . Th a n k y o u . T h a n k - t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . W e w il l a d j o u r n f o r t o d a y a n d w e w i ll s t a r t a t n o r m a l ti m e t o m o r r o w - 1 0 a m . S o w e l e a v e i t a t t h a t . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 6 N O V E M B E R 2 0 1 9 10 Page 194 of 194