C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 24 JUY 2019 D AY 1 3 9 20 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 HEARING RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Ms Gcabashe, good morning e v e r y b o d y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s I a m C h a i r m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Let us proceed. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u . G o o d m o r n i n g a g a i n M r D h la m i n i, good morning Ma’am. 10 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: G o o d m o r n i n g . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M r D h la m i n i w e … CHAIRPERSON: T h e o a t h , th e o a th t h a t y o u t o o k y e s t e r d a y M r D h l a m in i c o n t in u e s to a p p ly u n t il y o u h a v e fi n i s h e d y o u r e v i d e n c e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Microphone. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I c o n fir m Yo u r W o r s h ip . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Thank you. W e w e r e a c tu a lly o n p a g e 7 o f your statement and we had dealt with most of what is in paragraph 25. B u t o n e a s p e c t y o u h a d n o t d e a l t w i th w a s t h e v e r y la s t s e n t e n c e th a t d e a ls w i th th e s a l e o f m ilk p r o d u c e d a t t h e d a ir y f a r m . C o u l d y o u j u s t 20 s p e a k t o th e i s s u e v e r y b r i e fly t h a n k y o u ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: C o r r e c t i n d e e d I w o u l d s e e t h e m il k t h a t is p r o d u c e d fr o m t h e d a ir y f a r m . I t w ill b e s o ld in t h e t o w n s h i p s s a m e s tr e e t w h e r e I r e s i d e a n d t h e r e w a s a l s o – I h a d a s h o p a t Pr i n s l o o S tr e e t i n Vr e d e . T h e r e w a s a n I n d i a n g u y – a n I n d i a n s h o p t h e r e I w o u l d s e e th e m d e l iv e r in g m i lk t h e r e . I t w il l b e s o l d fr o m t h e r e . Page 2 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A s w e ll a s t h e c a t tl e f e e d w a s – i t w a s s o ld o r s o l d t h e r e a t T h e m b a li h l e To w n s h i p a s w e ll . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Wa s is i t a b o u t t h e s e a c ti v i ti e s th a t y o u w a n t t h e C h a ir m a n t o n o t e ? W h a t is y o u r c o n c e r n o r w h a t a r e y o u h a p p y a b o u t i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e s e a c t iv it i e s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: R e g a r d i n g t h e a c tiv i ti e s o f s e l li n g 1. T h e c o w f e e d o r f o d d e r a n d t h e m i lk w h e n t h e y c a m e t o s e ll th e f o o d – t h e c o w fe e d a s w e l l a s t h e m il k t o u s w e q u e s ti o n e d t h a t 10 a s t o h o w c a n y o u s e ll o u r – b a s i c a ll y o u r p r o d u c ts t o u s . I m e a n w e a r e p a r t o f t h e d a ir y p r o je c t o u r s e lv e s a n d y e t y o u a r e s e ll in g these things to us. 2 . W e a ls o h e a r d t h a t th e r e is n o m o n e y i n t h e d a ir y p r o d u c t a n d w e w e r e w o n d e r in g w h y w e a r e n o t r e c e iv i n g a n y p r o c e e d s o u t o f i t o r a n y m o n e y o u t th e p r o je c t b e c a u s e w e w e r e p a r t o f t h e p r o je c t a s w e ll . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: S o t h e lo n g a n d s h o r t o f i t is y o u w e r e n o t s u r e th a t t h e s e w e r e l e g i ti m a t e a c ti v i ti e s . I a m l o o k in g a t t h e v e r y l a s t s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 2 6 . 20 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: C o r r e c t i t w a s n o t l e g i ti m a t e a c ti v i ti e s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e s e l li n g i t – t h e y w e r e s e lli n g i t a t n i g h t. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d t h is w a s w h i le t h e f a r m w a s u n d e r t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f th e F D C ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: C o r r e c t th o s e w e r e h ir e d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Ye s . Let us come to your – the concluding Page 3 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 p a r a g r a p h s M r D h l a m i n i a n d 2 8 d e a ls w i t h y o u r i n te r a c t i o n w i t h t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r. P l e a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir m a n a b o u t t h a t ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: A l th o u g h I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d a y p r e c i s e ly a s t o w h a t d a te i t w a s b u t s h e p h o n e d m e a n d r e q u e s t e d m e t o i n v i te t h e o th e r b e n e fi c i a r ie s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Who phoned you? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I g o t a c a l l fr o m o n e o f t h e e m p l o y e e s i n t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s o ffi c e . S h e s a id s h e w a s w o r k i n g t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s o ffi c e . S h e is t h e o n e w h o p h o n e d m e . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: W a s it t h e P r e t o r i a o ff ic e o r t h e Pr o v i n c i a l o ffic e i n B l o e m f o n t e i n ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Fr o m P r e t o r ia . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Ye s c o n t in u e . A n d th is w o u ld r o u g h ly h a v e been when? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I t w a s j u s t r e c e n t ly w h e n s h e t o o k d o w n o u r d e ta il s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : H a d t h e r e b e e n n o c o n ta c t b e fo r e 2 0 1 8 /2 0 1 9 ? I a m tr y i n g t o i n te r p r e t y o u r M a n j e , M a n je I a m a s s u m i n g y o u m e a n 2 0 1 8 /2 0 1 9 ? 20 CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k th a t q u e s ti o n i s q u it e i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e I n o t e d y e s te r d a y t h a t w h e n h e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t 2 0 1 5 h e s a i d M a n j e n o w. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: 2 0 1 8 s h e c a l le d m e i t w a s i n N o v e m b e r. S h e i n f o r m s th e m t h a t t h e y w e r e c o m i n g . T h a t I m u s t c a ll t h e o t h e r p e o p l e . I t h e n p h o n e d th e o t h e r p e o p l e in f o r m i n g t h e m a b o u t Page 4 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e v i s i t o f t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a n d th e n l a t e r s h e c a l le d m e a n d s h e r e q u e s t e d m e t o p o s t p o n e t h e m e e ti n g . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r c a l l e d y o u ? I N T E R P R E T E R : S o r r y t h e r e is a la s t p a r t t h a t h e s a id I d i d n o t g e t i t . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: O k a y s h e s a id s h e r e q u e s t e d m e to p o s tp o n e t h e m e e t in g b e c a u s e s h e h a d a lo t o f w o r k t o d o . S h e w a s s u p p o s e d t o v i s i t s o m e w h e r e e ls e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d th is is t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r w h o w a s c o m m u n ic a ti n g t h i s t o y o u ? 10 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: 2 0 1 8 N o v e m b e r. That is c o r r e c t t h e c a l l t h a t I r e c e iv e d i n 2 0 1 8 N o v e m b e r i t w a s t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r h e r s e l f. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C o n t in u e . MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI: Okay the second time I then r e c e i v e d a c a ll fr o m a p e r s o n w h o is w o r k in g fr o m t h e o ffi c e o f t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r in f o r m i n g m e t h a t I s h o u ld i n v i te th e o t h e r p e o p le o r t h e p a r t ie s w h o a r e a ff e c t e d in th is a n d s h e g a v e m e t h e d a t e a s w e ll . B u t w e h a d a m is u n d e r s t a n d in g o n th e p h o n e b e c a u s e I h a d a p r o b l e m o f u s i n g m y p h o n e c o n t a c ti n g t h e m . S o I r a i s e d th is is s u e o f n o t b e i n g 20 h a p p y u s i n g my p h o n e t o c o n ta c t t h e m . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C o n t in u e . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: We then had an agreement t h a t t h e y w il l p a y b a c k m y a i r t i m e o n t h e ir c o m i n g t h e y w i ll r e p l a c e m y a ir t i m e b y b u y i n g i t. O k a y s o w h a t h a p p e n e d is c o m i n g t o t h e i s s u e o f t h e d a t e n o w t h e y w a n t e d t o r e la t e – o r t o t e l l th e p e o p l e t h e d a te s o Page 5 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e y p h o n e d p e o p le i n d iv i d u a l ly. S o t h e s e p e o p l e th a t th e y w e r e c a ll i n g d i d n o t w a n t t o lis t e n to t h e m t h e y s a i d w e d o n o t k n o w y o u , w h o a r e y o u ? W e k n o w Mr D h l a m in i . S o t h e y h a d to c a ll m e b a c k t o e x p la i n t o t h e m a s t o w h o a r e t h e y a n d w h y t h e y w e r e c a ll i n g t h e m . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s d i d th a t m e e t in g ta k e p l a c e ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t t h e m e e ti n g d i d t a k e p la c e a t M h l a b u n z i m a H a ll . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: D o y o u r e c a l l w h e n th is y e a r t h a t m e e t in g t o o k p la c e ? 10 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: W h e n ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE: When? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h o u g h I d o n o t r e m e m b e r b u t it w a s th is y e a r. S h e p r o m i s e d u s th a t s h e w il l b e b a c k to u s i n t h r e e m o n th s ’ t i m e to g i v e u s a r e p o r t b a c k . CHAIRPERSON: M s G c a b a s h e d o y o u w a n t t o d o li k e y e s te r d a y g iv e t h a t s p e l li n g f o r M h la b u n z i m a H a l l f o r th e b e n e fi t o f t h e tr a n s c r i b e r s ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Oh C h a ir m a n le t me write it down. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I c a n g iv e i t A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : P l e a s e d o i t C h a i r ma n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: M for Mary H l a b u n z i m a. Mhlabunzima. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: M h l a b u n z i m a H a ll . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e M r D h la m i n i c a n c o n fi r m i f t h a t is c o r r e c t because he would know? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: C o r r e c t Yo u r W o r s h i p . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Page 6 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: T h a n k y o u C h a i r ma n . S o b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h 2 8 a n d w h a t y o u r e l a t i n g t o t h e C h a ir m a n . I s e e y o u m e n t i o n e d h e r e a M a y 2 0 1 9 m e e ti n g b u t I d o n o t w a n t t o c o n f u s e is s u e s . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: C a n y o u ju s t a s s is t t h e C h a ir m a n i n – a n d c o n fir m w h e t h e r t h a t is t h e d a te o n w h i c h y o u h a d th is m e e t i n g o r w h e t h e r t h a t is a d i ffe r e n t d a t e ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t i t i s t h e d a t e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d w h o w a s p r e s e n t a t th a t m e e t i n g ? 10 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: B u s is iw e M k h w e b a n e h e r s e l f w a s t h e r e a n d t h e o t h e r s w h o a r e w o r k in g w i t h h e r. Th e r e a r e m a n y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d f r o m t h e c o m m u n i ty ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI: A ll o f t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s w e r e p r e s e n t e x c e p t t h e o n e s fr o m M e m e l t h e y w e r e n o t t h e r e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o th e b e n e fic i a r ie s fr o m W a r d e n a t te n d e d a s w e ll ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I: C o r r e c t W a r d e n b e n e f ic ia r i e s were present. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: 20 C o n ti n u e I a m l o o k in g a t y o u r s ta t e m e n t, c o n ti n u e ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I w a s t h e f ir s t o n e to b e a s k e d q u e s t io n s . I w a s t h e fir s t o n e – t h e fi r s t p e r s o n th a t t h e y s p o k e t o a s k in g m e q u e s t io n s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W a s th is i n t h e o p e n m e e ti n g n o w ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t i t w a s i n s id e Page 7 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e h a ll . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C o n t in u e . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Others did not speak to them in a n o p e n h a l l i t w a s d o n e w it h in t h e h a ll b u t p r i v a t e l y. At or in c o n c l u s i o n o f th e m e e t i n g I t h a n k e d h e r a n d I a l s o i n f o r m e d h e r o f t h e f a c t t h a t w e w e r e n o t tr u s te d a n y m o r e t h a t s h e w i ll c o m e b a c k t o u s e s p e c i a l ly l o o k i n g a t th e fir s t r e p o r t t h a t s h e g a v e o u t w e d o n o t k n o w h o w d i d s h e g e t to t h a t b e c a u s e s h e d i d n o t c o n s u l t u s r e g a r d in g t h e fir s t r e p o r t . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e f in a l r e p o r t th a t w a s p u b lis h e d in F e b r u a r y o f 2 0 1 9 ? I b e g y o u r p a r d o n i t is 2 0 1 8 . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s j u s t g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n – t o y o u r a n s w e r t o th e q u e s ti o n b e f o r e th is o n e . I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r a n s w e r t o b e th a t w h e n y o u th a n k e d h e r a t th e m e e ti n g y o u t o l d h e r t h a t y o u h a d c o m e t o a p o in t w h e r e y o u d i d n o t t r u s t h e r. Is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g – y o u s a i d o r w e r e y o u s a y i n g y o u d i d n o t tr u s t t h a t s h e w o u l d c o m e b a c k t o you? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I w a s s a y in g I w a s n o t – I d i d 20 n o t tr u s t h e r a n y m o r e – h e r a s a p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c la r i fy th a t f u r th e r. D i d y o u m e a n th a t a s y o u w e r e s p e a k in g a t t h a t m e e ti n g y o u d id n o t t r u s t h e r a n y m o r e o r d id y o u m e a n t h a t b e f o r e t h a t m e e t in g y o u d id n o t tr u s t h e r ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: E v e n n o w I d o n o t t r u s t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: But when you spoke to her and thanked her what were Page 8 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 you conveying to her? Were you conveying that you did not trust her a s y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g o r w e r e y o u c o n v e y in g th a t p r i o r t o t h a t m e e ti n g y o u d id n o t tr u s t h e r o r w a s i t b o t h ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI: I t i s b o t h Yo u r W o r s h i p . In t h a t m e e ti n g i ts e l f w e – I – w e w e r e n o t t r u s t in g h e r. E v e n w h e n s h e w a s s a y i n g s h e w a s c o m i n g t o a t t e n d t h e m e e ti n g w i t h u s Yo u r W o r s h i p w e d i d n o t tr u s t h e r a s m e m b e r s o f th e a s s o c i a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d y o u s a y t h a t is s t ill t h e p o s it i o n n o w ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: C o r r e c t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y d o y o u w a n t t o e la b o r a t e o n w h y y o u d id n o t tr u s t h e r o r w h y y o u d o n o t tr u s t h e r ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h e fir s t r e p o r t w h ic h w a s p u b lis h e d o r is s u e d h o w d id s h e g e t t h e f a c ts ? H o w d i d s h e a r r i v e d a t t h e f a c ts w h ic h w e r e c o n ta i n e d i n t h e r e p o r t ? W h o d i d s h e s p e a k t o o r in v e s t i g a t e ? How d id she conduct her i n v e s ti g a ti o n w i th o u t c o n s u l t a ti o n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s d i d s h e n o t s p e a k t o t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: N o i t w a s fo r t h e fir s t ti m e o f h e r t o c o m e th is y e a r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d n o b o d y fr o m th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s o ffi c e s p o k e n t o t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s b e fo r e t h e f ir s t r e p o r t w a s is s u e d ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO D H L A M I N I: N o Yo u r Worship what h a p p e n e d i s w e e v e n w e n t t o h e r o ff ic e t o g e t h e r w i th M r M a i m a n e . I w a s i n th e – I s p o k e p e r s o n a l ly s p o k e t o h e r i n th e o ffic e w i t h h e r a n d I e v e n r e q u e s t e d b e c a u s e w e c a m e w i t h o t h e r p e o p le . I r e q u e s te d h e r t o Page 9 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 g o a n d e x p l a i n t o t h e p e o p l e a n d t e ll t h e m a s t o w h e n is s h e g o i n g t o v is it u s in Vr e d e . CHAIRPERSON: same period. O k a y le t u s j u s t m a k e s u r e w e a r e ta lk i n g a b o u t t h e W e a r e t a lk – w e a r e ta lk – a r e w e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e p e r i o d b e fo r e th e – s h e r e l e a s e d t h e f ir s t r e p o r t o n t h e d a ir y f a r m ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI: C o r r e c t Yo u r W o r s h i p b e f o r e t h e fi r s t r e p o r t w a s r e le a s e d w e d i d v i s i t h e r o ffi c e t o g e t h e r w i th M r M a i m a n e in P r e t o r ia . CHAIRPERSON: 10 A n d d id y o u s a y y o u a l s o w e n t t h e r e w i th o t h e r b e n e fic i a r i e s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I : T h a t is c o r r e c t w e w e r e fi f t e e n in t h e c o m b i t h a t w e w e r e tr a v e l li n g i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h a t ti m e w a s h e r in v e s t ig a ti o n s ti ll g o i n g o n o r h a d it b e e n c o m p l e t e d a s f a r a s y o u k n o w ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: A c c o r d in g t o h e r s h e s a i d s h e h a s i n v e s ti g a te d t h e m a t t e r. M r M a i m a n e m u s t p r o c e e d a n d o p e n u p a c a s e a n d s h e w il l a s s is t w i t h w h a te v e r is n e e d e d fr o m h e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y. I a m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e b a s i s f o r y o u t o s a y a s a b e n e f ic ia r i e s y o u d id n o t tr u s t h e r a n d y o u s t il l d o n o t 20 tr u s t h e r. J u s t t e l l m e a n y o t h e r t h i n g t h a t fo r ms t h e b a s i s f o r y o u s a y in g y o u d o n o t tr u s t h e r o r y o u d i d n o t t r u s t h e r ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: We heard that she came and v is it e d t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . W e h e a r d t h a t fr o m t h e e m p l o y e e s o f t h e p r o je c t b u t s h e n e v e r c a m e to u s . S h e w e n t t h e r e b u t n e v e r c a m e t o s e e u s . W e w e r e p e r t u r b e d a s to w h y d i d s h e n o t c o m e to u s . W h y Page 10 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 d i d s h e v i s i t t h e p r o je c t i ts e l f w i t h o u t c o m in g to u s a n d s p e a k t o u s s o t h a t r e a ll y s u r p r is e d u s a ll . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m u s t ju s t t e l l m e i f my u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s w r o n g . Fr o m w h a t y o u s a y I u n d e r s t a n d y o u t o b e s a y i n g t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u d i d n o t tr u s t h e r w a s t h a t y o u f e l t e x c l u d e d fr o m h e r in v e s ti g a t i o n ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t Yo u r W o r s h i p . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r D h la m i n i w o u l d it b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t t h e e x p e c t a ti o n o f t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w a s th a t M r 10 M a i m a n e w a s g o i n g t o c o ll e c t s t a te m e n ts fr o m y o u a n d s u b m it t h e m t o h e r o ff ic e ? I h a v e r e a d t h a t in c o u r t p a p e r s t h a t s h e h a s s u b m i t te d . D o y o u k n o w a n y t h in g a b o u t t h a t ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: W e w e r e s u r p r i s e d – p e r tu r b e d a g a in b e c a u s e w h e n w e w e r e in h e r o ff ic e s h e s a i d s h e w a s o n l y a w a r e o f 3 5 b e n e f ic ia r i e s . S h e s a i d s h e h a d n o k n o w l e d g e o f t h e o th e r b e n e fic i a r i e s i t w a s f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e o f h e r t o l e a r n a b o u t t h e o t h e r b e n e fic i a r i e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Ye s b u t m y q u e s t io n w a s , d o y o u k n o w a n y th in g a b o u t h e r e x p e c t a t i o n t h a t M r M a i m a n e w a s g o i n g t o c o l le c t 20 s t a te m e n ts fr o m y o u a n d fo r w a r d th e m t o h e r o ff ic e ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: N o I d o n o t k n o w. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : D i d M r M a i m a n e a t a n y p o in t s a y t o y o u th a t h e w o u l d c o ll e c t y o u r s t a t e m e n ts a n d f o r w a r d t h e m t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s o ffi c e ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Page 11 of 217 N o h e d id n o t u t t e r t h o s e 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 words. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: D id a n y b o d y e ls e o ffe r t o c o ll e c t s t a t e m e n t s fr o m y o u a n d f o r w a r d t h e m t o t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r ’s o ff ic e ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI: N o I d o n o t r e m e m b e r th a t because I remember I had a conversation with her on the phone and s h e s a i d s h e w a s c o m i n g t o c o ll e c t t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d I s a i d b u t w h y b e c a u s e t h e H a w k s c a m e a n d c o ll e c t e d th e s t a t e m e n t . W h y d o y o u n o t g o t o t h e H a w k s a n d g e t t h e s ta t e m e n ts fr o m t h e m ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o f ir s t t h i n g s fi r s t . A t t h e e n d o f t h e m e e t i n g 10 in M a y y o u h a d c o m m u n i c a t e d y o u r g r i e v a n c e s t o t h e P u b lic Pr o t e c t o r, is t h a t c o r r e c t? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t w e d i d . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C e r ta i n i n d iv id u a ls … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I g u e s s w h a t y o u m e a n i s b e f o r e t h e e n d o f th e m e e t in g y o u h a d t o ld t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r t h e g r i e v a n c e s n o t a ft e r t h e e n d o f t h e m e e t in g ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: W h e n s h e c a m e t o – w h e n s h e c a m e t o v i s i t u s s h e w a s a s k i n g u s q u e s t io n s a n d t h e y w e r e w r it i n g d o w n w h a t w e w e r e t e ll in g th e m a s to w h a t h a p p e n e d . T h e r e w a s a ls o 20 m e d i a p r e s e n t . S o t h e y w e r e w r i t in g d o w n w h a t w e w e r e t e l li n g t h e m . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: I… CHAIRPERSON: S o b y th e e n d o f th e m e e t in g y o u h a d t o l d h e r y o u r grievances? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: C o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Page 12 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: T h e n i n a d d i t io n to t h a t y o u s a y y o u h a d a s u b s e q u e n t d i s c u s s io n w i t h h e r a n d d u r in g th a t d is c u s s i o n y o u r e f e r r e d h e r t o th e s t a te m e n ts y o u g a v e to t h e H a w k s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t . I t w a s n o w a t t h e ti m e w h e n I w a s s p e a k in g t o h e r te le p h o n ic a l ly w h e n t h e r e w a s t h i s m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s a n d h e r. I t w a s y e s th a t ti m e I t o l d h e r a b o u t t h a t. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: P l e a s e e x p l a in t h e m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g ? I do n o t – j u s t lo c a t e i t f o r u s ? W a s i t b e f o r e t h e M a y m e e t in g o r a f t e r t h e 10 M a y m e e t in g , t h e m is u n d e r s t a n d in g ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: F i r s t ly s h e p r o m is e d to v is it u s in N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 8 . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI: u s i n g m y a i r ti m e . I – th a t ti m e I p h o n e d h e r S h e p o s t p o n e d t h e m e e t in g t h e n I h a d t o c a ll t h e o th e r p e o p l e a n d i n f o r m t h e m t h a t s h e w a s n o lo n g e r c o m i n g . The s e c o n d t i m e th a t i s w h e n t h e r e w a s t h i s m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e tw e e n u s t h a t I u s e d m y a i r t i m e t o p h o n e t h e p e o p l e a n d y e t s h e p o s t p o n e d th e m e e ti n g y o u d id n o t c o m e . W h a t d i d n o t s i t w e ll w i t h m e i s th a t w h e n 20 s h e s p e a k s t o m e Yo u r W o r s h i p s h e s p o k e t o m e l ik e a n y ti m e w h e n I c a l l I s h o u l d fi n d y o u o n th e p h o n e i f I w a n t t o s p e a k t o y o u . I d i d n o t a p p r e c ia t e th e m a n n e r in w h ic h s h e w a s a d d r e s s i n g m e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d t h a t d is c o m f o r t o f y o u r s c a m e f r o m a t e l e p h o n e d i s c u s s io n b e f o r e t h e M a y 2 0 1 9 m e e ti n g ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . Page 13 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t y o u b u r ie d t h e h a t c h e t a t t h e m e e ti n g o f M a y 2 0 1 9 ? Yo u r e s o lv e d y o u r is s u e s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : C o r r e c t . I n d e e d s h e c a m e a n d w e h a d a d is c u s s io n w i th h e r to d is s o lv e o r r e s o l v e t h e is s u e s b u t w e in f o r m e d h e r t h a t w e d o n o t tr u s t h e r anymore. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . If y o u w o u ld t h e n m o v e fr o m th a t p o i n t a n d e x p l a i n y o u r i n te r a c t io n w i t h t h e H a w k s . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : 10 T h e H a w k s c a m e a n d v is i t e d Vr e d e . Ye s . T h e y w e r e t o g e th e r w i th N PA . T h e y w e n t t o t h e d a ir y f a r m p r o j e c t a n d I w a s a t S h o p r it e Ta x i R a n k . T h e y d i d n o t i n f o r m m e th a t t h e y w e r e c o m in g t o v i s i t t h e d a ir y t h a t they were looking for me. F ir s t ly t h e y d id n o t i n f o r m m e a b o u t t h e ir c o m i n g t o t h e d a ir y a n d th a t th e y w e r e lo o k in g f o r m e . T h e n e x t t h i n g I h e a r d th a t th e Vr e d e P o l ic e O ff ic e r s w e r e lo o k in g fo r m e . I w e n t t o th e m . T h e y to ld m e t h a t th e y h a v e s h u t d o w n t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t a n d t h e y to g e th e r w i t h t h e N PA a n d t h e y h a v e c o m p il e d a ll t h e a s s e t s w h ic h a r e t h e y. T h e y h a v e a l is t o f t h e a s s e t s . T h e y h a v e c o m p i le d th e l is t a n d fr o m t h e r e t h e y l e f t . 20 Th e y w e n t to Pretoria. T h e y t h e n – o n c e t h e y w e r e a t P r e to r i a I t h e n r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m t h e Br i g a d i e r o f t h e H a w k s . Th e y w e r e i n f o r m i n g m e a b o u t t h e d a t e . I s t il l h a v e i t . I N T E R P R E T E R : T h e w i tn e s s is m a k i n g r e f e r e n c e t o a n S M S r e g a r d i n g the date. Page 14 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h e 2 5 t h … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h ic h y e a r ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through i nt e r pr e t e r ) : The m e e ti n g w a s to t a k e p la c e o n S a t u r d a y a n d S u n d a y 2 5 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 9 a n d i n d e e d p e o p l e a t t e n d e d t h e m e e ti n g to g i v e o u t t h e s t a t e m e n t . O k a y. L in d iw e M a s i te n g d id n o t a t t e n d t h e m e e ti n g t o t h e p o i n t t h a t t h e y a p p l ie d fo r a w a r r a n t . T h e y a p p li e d f o r a w a r r a n t t o o b t a i n t h e m i n u t e s o f th e m e e ti n g – d o c u m e n t s o f t h e m e e t in g b e c a u s e t h e y w il l 10 h a v e m e e ti n g s w i t h o u t u s . S o th e y n e e d e d th o s e m e e ti n g s – m i n u t e s o f th o s e m e e ti n g s . O u p a M a h l a b a w a s n o t - d i d n o t a t te n d t h e m e e t in g a s w e ll b e c a u s e h e has got businesses or tenders. H e w a s w o r k i n g o u t s i d e Vr e d e . So t h e y d id n o t fi n d h i m . I t w a s a S a t u r d a y a n d a S u n d a y a n d p e o p l e w h o w e r e p r e s e n t t h e r e it w a s p e o p l e c o m in g fr o m M e m e l a n d … ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Warden. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : W a r d e n . M e m e l a n d Wa r d e n a s w e l l a s p e o p l e fr o m Vr e d e a n d a f t e r th a t th e y le f t . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d th e r e a ft e r. 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: C a n w e j u s t in t e r r o g a t e th a t ? a n y th in g e ls e y o u w a n t t o a d d to t h a t m e e t in g ? Is th e r e I want to ask you a c o u p l e o f q u e s t io n s . MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through i n t e r pr e t e r ) : On 2 5 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 9 I c a ll e d t h e H a w k s Br i g a d i e r b e c a u s e w e w e r e b e i n g t h r e a t e n e d b y d e a th i n Vr e d e . S o b e c a u s e o f t h e t h r e a ts w e – I t h e n Page 15 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 c a l l e d B r ig a d i e r – d a te 2 5 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 9 . I a m a ls o i n t h e ta x i i n d u s tr y. S o o n e o f m y c o ll e a g u e s fo r w a r d e d m e a v id e o y o u r w o r s h i p w h ic h a ls o – i t is m o r e lik e t h r e a t e n i n g m y l if e . I t w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t m e l ik e th r e a ts t o m y l i fe a n d I e v e n p h o n e d Mr N t o m b e l a o n 11 J u n e t e ll in g h i m a b o u t t h i s v i d e o w h ic h w a s - t h e c o n te n t w a s t h r e a t e n i n g m y li f e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Mr D h l a m i n i – M r D h la m i n i I w a n t y o u t o c o n ti n u e w it h t h i s e v i d e n c e b u t it is s li g h tl y d i ff e r e n t t o t h e m e e t in g s w i t h t h e H a w k s . P le a s e a l lo w m e j u s t to a s k y o u o n e o r t w o q u e s t i o n s 10 a b o u t t h e m e e t i n g w i t h th e H a w k s . D o n o t fo r g e t w h a t y o u a r e a b o u t t o t e ll t h e C h a i r m a n a n d th e n w e w ill c o m e b a c k t o w h e r e y o u a r e r i g h t n o w i f th a t is fi n e . T h e m e e ti n g s w i t h t h e H a w k s y o u s a y w a s v e r y w e ll a tt e n d e d . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: D i d y o u h a v e o ffic e r s w h o w e r e p h y s ic a l ly w r i t in g d o w n s ta t e m e n ts fr o m e a c h i n d iv i d u a l m e m b e r w h o w a s th e r e w h o w a n t e d t o g iv e a s t a t e m e n t ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h e r e w e r e o ffi c i a l s f r o m t h e H a w k s w h o w e r e t a k i n g d o w n th e 20 s t a te m e n ts . T h e y w e r e a t th e Vr e d e P o l ic e S t a t io n . Th e p o li c e o ffic e r s w h o w e r e s ta t io n e d a t Vr e d e P o li c e S t a ti o n d i d n o t w a n t to t a k e d o w n s t a te m e n ts . T h e y w e r e t h e o n e s w h o w e r e t a k i n g – th e H a w k s w e r e t a k i n g d o w n t h e s t a t e m e n t s – t h e o ffi c i a l s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u s a y t h e Vr e d e P o li c e d i d n o t w a n t t o t a k e d o w n s t a t e m e n ts ? Page 16 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : They d i d n o t – i t s e e m s l ik e th e y h a d a d is c u s s io n b e t w e e n th e m s e lv e s t h a t t h e y w a n te d t o u s e t h e p o lic e s t a ti o n f o r th a t a c t iv i t y s p e c i f ic a l ly b e c a u s e t h o s e w h o a r e w o r k i n g a t t h e Vr e d e P o l ic e S t a ti o n t h e y w e r e b u s y w i t h o t h e r d u ti e s a p a r t fr o m t h i s . S o i t lo o k s li k e t h e r e w a s a d is c u s s io n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A r e y o u a w a r e o f th e n u m b e r o f s t a t e m e n t s t h e H a w k s w e r e a b l e t o g e t fr o m th e b e n e fi c ia r i e s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : 10 They g a v e m e t h e l is t o f t h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s w h o w e r e p r e s e n t th e r e w h e n s t a te m e n ts w e r e b e in g t a k e n d o w n . S o I d o b e l ie v e I tr u s t t h a t t h e y d i d g e t a l l t h e ir s t a t e m e n t s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: R o u g h ly h o w m a n y n a m e s a r e o n t h e li s t if you can recall? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : 82 b e n e fic i a r i e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: So that means there would approximately h a v e b e e n 8 2 s t a t e m e n t s t h a t w e r e m a d e a n d t h e n t a k e n b y th e H a w k s . MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): 20 T h a t is c o r r e c t a n d m a y I p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d C h a ir m a n th a t th r e e o f t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s h a v e a lr e a d y p a s s e d o n b y t h e t i m e s t a te m e n t s w e r e being taken down. S o t h e y w e r e r e p r e s e n t e d b y t h e i r c h il d r e n w h o w e r e p r e s e n t w h e n s t a te m e n ts w e r e t a k e n d o w n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T h e n c a n y o u e x p l a in to th e C h a i r m a n w h o L i n d i w e M a s i t e n g is ? Page 17 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Lindiwe Masiteng was one of the people we nominated to be in the c o m m i t t e e t o g e t h e r w i th J u n e M a h l a b a a n d Ti tu s . CHAIRPERSON: If you have moved – if you are moving away from the m e e ti n g I w a n t to a s k s o m e … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t m o v i n g a w a y y e t? ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Not yet. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: N o t y e t C h a ir m a n . T h e – th e – s o t h e members of the committee were Lindiwe Masiteng, June Mahlaba and ( in d is ti n c t) N g q u s in i ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): Correct. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Yo u r e v id e n c e i s t h a t L in d iw e M a s i te n g w a s t h e r e c o r d i n g s e c r e ta r y ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : S h e w a s t h e D e p u ty o f J u n e M a h l a b a . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: And you then m ake reference to the Hawks a s k in g f o r t h e m in u t e s o f a n y m e e t i n g s t h e y m a y h a v e h e ld ? 20 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : w e r e a s k i n g m e a b o u t t h e w h e r e a b o u ts o f L i n d i w e . They I to l d t h e m t h a t I s a w h e r. S h e w a lk e d p a s s e d th e r e a n d t h e n I p h o n e d h e r. Th e y w e r e a s k in g m e a b o u t th e w h e r e a b o u t s o f L i n d i w e a n d th e n I s a w – I s a w h e r w a lk in g p a s t th e r e a n d t h e n I p h o n e d h e r a n d s h e s a id s h e w a s b u s y d o i n g l a u n d r y. T h e n w e to o k a c a r a n d w e d r o v e to h e r p l a c e o f Page 18 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 r e s id e n c e o r a t h e r h o u s e . I t h e n p o in t e d o u t w h e r e s h e s t a y s . They then went and a p p li e d f o r a w a r r a n t o f s e a r c h s o t h a t t h e y c a n o b t a in t h o s e m i n u t e s . T h e n t h e n e x t t h i n g I s a w h e r. Hawks and she was scared. S h e c a m e w it h – t o g e t h e r w i th t h e I managed to speak to her and she said M r D h l a m i n i w e a r e b e in g a r r e s t e d a n d I a s k e d h e r w h a t h a v e y o u d o n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: What was her response? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I – she s a i d s h e d id a d v is e O u p a t h a t t h e y s h o u l d c o m e b a c k to u s a n d g i v e u s 10 r e p o r t b a c k s a n d n o t – th e r e p o r t b a c k s i n s t e a d o f ta k i n g d e c i s i o n s o n o u r b e h a l f a n d O u p a d id n o t w a n t t o h e e d t o a d v ic e o r li s t e n . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : N o w O u p a M a h l a b a is J u n e M a h l a b a w h o w a s t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e c o m m i t t e e y o u h a d s e l e c t e d ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): T h a t is correct. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: L a s t t w o q u e s t i o n s o n t h i s a s p e c t. D i d th e H a w k s te ll y o u w h y t h e y w a n te d y o u r s ta t e m e n ts ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s t h e y d i d i n d i c a t e t h a t t h e y a r e t a k in g d o w n o u r s t a te m e n ts r e g a r d i n g t h e 20 d a ir y – th e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d d i d t h e y te ll y o u w h y t h e y w a n t e d a n y r e c o r d s th a t L i n d i w e M a s i t e n g th e D e p u ty C h a ir m a n m ig h t h a v e ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : Correct b e c a u s e i n – i n t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t h a s t h e li s t o f th e m e m b e r s i t w a s c le a r t h a t w h o w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , th e c o m m i t t e e t h a t i s , w h o is t h e Page 19 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D e p u ty, w h o is t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e c o m m i t t e e . S o y e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: I t h i n k a l a s t r e l e v a n t f a c t to w h a t w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t is t h e f o l l o w in g . Mr J u n e M a h l a b a t h e C h a ir m a n w i ll c o m e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t e l l t h e C o m m is s i o n th a t th e c o m m i t t e e d i d n o t m e e t . T h e y h a d n o f e e d b a c k t o g iv e t o th e m e m b e r s h i p . I ju s t w a n t t o p l a c e th a t o n r e c o r d . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : That w o u ld b e a l i e . A b l u e li e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: 10 C h a i r m a n I th in k i n r e s p e c t o f t h e H a w k s I h a v e e x h a u s te d th e q u e s t io n s I w o u l d l ik e t o a s k . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. No thank you. Did the Hawks take a s t a te m e n t fr o m y o u ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i d y o u s i g n t h e s ta t e m e n t ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : It was read back to me and then I attached my signature. CHAIRPERSON: W a s – w a s t h a t d u r in g th e m e e ti n g o r w a s i t l a t e r a ft e r t h e m e e ti n g ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI 20 (through i n t e r pr e t e r ) : My s t a te m e n t w a s ta k e n d o w n o n a S a tu r d a y b e c a u s e o n S u n d a y I w a s b u s y w it h t h e l is t b e c a u s e w h a t h a p p e n e d i s w e w e r e g r o u p e d a s p e r la n g u a g e – Z u l u , S o th o , A fr ik a a n s . S o I w a s a s s is ti n g i n th o s e – i n t h a t a c ti v i ty s p e c if ic a l ly. My s t a t e m e n t w a s ta k e n d o w n o n a S a tu r d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t t h e S a t u r d a y w h e n y o u w e r e m e e ti n g th e H a w k s o n S a t u r d a y a n d S u n d a y – t h e S a t u r d a y y o u a r e ta lk i n g a b o u t ? Page 20 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : n o t a m e e ti n g . It was I t w a s a b o u t ta k i n g d o w n o f o u r s t a t e m e n t s S a tu r d a y a n d S u n d a y. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a l r i g h t . N o w a r e t h e r e s ta t e m e n ts b y o t h e r m e m b e r s – o t h e r b e n e fi c i a r ie s th a t y o u a c t u a ll y d i d s e e w h ic h h a d b e e n s ig n e d t h a t w e r e t a k e n b y t h e H a w k s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : C o r r e c t . W h e n I e n t e r e d t h e r o o m w h e r e t h e y w e r e w o r k in g fr o m I s a w th e o th e r s b e c a u s e a lr e a d y t h e r e w e r e o th e r b e n e fic i a r i e s w h o w e r e in s i d e 10 t h e r e . S o I s a w th e ir s ta t e m e n ts . T h e y w e r e o n th e ta b l e . I s a w th e m on the table. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Yo u – y o u w e r e n o t g i v e n c o p i e s w h e n t h e H a w k s l e f t o f a n y o f t h e s t a t e m e n ts ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): No. CHAIRPERSON: So there would have been many statements by b e n e fic i a r i e s b y th e e n d o f t h a t m e e ti n g o n S u n d a y – o n S u n d a y. I k n o w y o u s a y t h e r e w a s n o m e e ti n g b u t b y t h e e n d o f th a t s e s s io n o n S a t u r d a y a n d S u n d a y t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n m a n y s ta t e m e n ts b y b e n e fic i a r i e s t h a t h a d b e e n t a k e n . I s t h a t r ig h t ? 20 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : Correct b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a q u e u e o f t h e b e n e fi c ia r i e s w h o w e r e l in i n g u p f o r t h e ir s ta t e m e n ts to b e t a k e n d o w n a n d c o m p a r in g t h e q u e u e a s w e l l a s m y l is t o f th e b e n e fic i a r i e s t h e y w e r e a ll a t t e n d e d t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b e f o r e t h e H a w k s l e ft o n t h a t o c c a s i o n d i d th e y in d i c a t e t o y o u w h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o d o w i t h t h e s ta t e m e n ts o r w h a t Page 21 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e ir p l a n w a s o r w h e n t h e y w o u l d r e p o r t b a c k to y o u o r w h e n th e y w o u ld te ll y o u a n y t h i n g a b o u t w h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o d o w i th t h e s t a te m e n ts ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): No. CHAIRPERSON: S in c e t h e n h a v e t h e r e b e e n a n y c o m m u n i c a t io n b e t w e e n th e b e n e fic i a r i e s a n d t h e H a w k s a s f a r a s y o u k n o w ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Except w h e n I – I c a ll e d th e m r e g a r d in g t h e t h r e a ts , n o t h e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n a n y c o m m u n i c a t io n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . C h a ir m a n m a y b e I s h o u l d ju s t p l a c e o n r e c o r d th a t w e h a v e b e e n c o m m u n i c a t in g w i th th e – w i t h t h e H a w k s . I k n o w y e s t e r d a y y o u h a d a s k e d th e d e p a r t m e n t t o g iv e u s d o c u m e n t a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W e h a v e b e e n t a l k in g t o t h e H a w k s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: W e w i ll c o n ti n u e to t a l k t o t h e m C h a ir m a n . W e h a v e n o t b e e n v e r y s u c c e s s f u l b u t w e w i ll c o n ti n u e … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : To s p e a k w i t h th e m … CHAIRPERSON: Well … ADV LEAH GCABASHE: About records that they have. CHAIRPERSON: I f t h e r e a r e d i ff ic u l ti e s I m u s t b e i n fo r m e d . a r e d i ffic u lt i e s i n g e t ti n g a n y t h i n g fr o m t h e m l e t m e k n o w. Page 22 of 217 If there 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: I w il l d o s o a t t h e e n d o f t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: M r D h l a m i n i l e t u s g o b a c k t o th e t h r e a ts b e c a u s e t h a t i s i m p o r t a n t i n f o r m a ti o n a s w e l l. Yo u … M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Yo u s t a r t e d s a y in g o n t h a t v e r y d a y o n t h e 2 5 t h y o u g o t t h r e a ts . P l e a s e j u s t s e t th a t o u t s u c c in c tly a s a s e p a r a t e a r e a o f – o f i n t e r e s t f o r t h e C h a ir m a n . 10 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : There w e r e p e o p le w h o w o u l d d ir e c t ly s a y t o u s w e m u s t b e k i ll e d w h a te v e r t h e y a r e l o o k in g f o r t h e y w il l n o t g e t it . Though I am not going to m e n ti o n n a m e s b u t o t h e r s w i ll u t te r th o s e w o r d s d ir e c tl y t h r e a te n i n g u s d ir e c t ly i n o u r f a c e s th a t w e h a v e t o b e k il l e d . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A r e y o u a b l e to d is c l o s e t h e n a m e s o f th o s e p e o p l e to t h e C h a ir m a n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e h e d o e s s o m a y b e h e s h o u l d n o t d o s o u n l e s s y o u h a v e h e a r d t h e n a m e s a n d w e – w e g iv e th e m n o tic e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M a y b e y o u s h o u ld ju s t w r it e t h e n a m e s d o w n 20 b e c a u s e I a m n o t fa m i li a r w i t h … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h o s e p a r t ic u l a r n a m e s C h a i r m a n a n d w e c a n t h e n p u t i n a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : To d e a l w i t h t h e i s s u e . Page 23 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M a y b e w h a t w e c a n s a y i s h e c a n – h e c a n t e l l u s w h a t w a s s a i d w i t h o u t s a y in g w h o s a i d i t a n d t h e n a f t e r h e h a s g iv e n e v i d e n c e h e c a n g iv e th e n a m e s t o t h e l e g a l te a m a n d t h e n w e w i ll ta k e it fr o m t h e r e . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : They s a i d w e m u s t b e k il le d b e c a u s e w e a r e m a k in g t h e o th e r p e o p le w h o a r e p a r t o f t h e p r o je c t a s w e l l w is e r. I N T E R P R E T E R : I d o n o t k n o w i f I a m p u tt in g i t w r i t e y o u r w o r s h i p . J a t h a t i s w h y w e s h o u l d b e k il l e d . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Aw a r e o f t h e ir r ig h ts . I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : We are m a k i n g t h e m a w a r e o f t h e ir r i g h ts th a t i s w h y w e s h o u l d b e k il le d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d w h e n – w h e n y o u r e fe r to “ w e ” y o u m e n ti o n e d N c o n g w a n e ’s n a m e ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ja, m y s e l f a n d M r N c o n g w a n e w e a r e m a k i n g th e o th e r g r o u p w is e r o r a w a r e o f t h e ir r ig h ts . I n t h e v i d e o th a t I m a d e m e n ti o n o f t h e r e i s a p e r s o n t h e r e w h o is s a y in g th e y h a v e h ir e d a k i ll e r – s o m e o n e t o k il l m e 20 in t h e v id e o . T h is – t h e r e is a p e r s o n w h o is s a y i n g M r D h l a m in i s h o u l d b e k i ll e d a n d th e n th is p e r s o n h e a r d a b o u t t h is t h r e a t a n d t h e n h e th e n s a i d g i v e m e t h is jo b . I w i ll d o i t a n d t h e n t h is p e r s o n th e n r e s p o n d e d b y s a y in g it is o k a y I w i ll a r r a n g e a m e e t in g b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d t h e p e o p l e w h o w a n t t h is p e r s o n t o b e k il l e d . Th is p e r s o n w o r k s o r is a m u n i c i p a l Page 24 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 o ffic i a l . S o h e is p a r t o f t h e g r o u p th a t w a n ts u s t o b e k il le d . I can g iv e t h is v i d e o a s w e l l fo r y o u to v i e w it b u t I t h i n k I m a d e a m i s t a k e b y g iv i n g t h is v i d e o t o th e H a w k s b e c a u s e t h e p e r s o n i n t h e v i d e o w e s t a y in t h e s a m e t o w n s h ip w i t h … INTERPRETER: Sorry I did not get the last part. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Well I w a s g o i n g t o a c t u a ll y in v e s ti g a t e o r f i n d o u t m y s e lf fr o m t h i s p e r s o n t o s h o w m e t h e p e o p l e w h o a r e h ir e d o r w a s s u p p o s e d t o k il l m e . I – I a m – I d o r e a l is e t h a t t h e r e i s p o l ic e t o p r o te c t u s b u t - o r t h e la w to 10 p r o t e c t u s b u t I d o n o t th i n k i t is e ff e c ti v e o r i t is w o r k in g i n o u r f a v o u r. I t is s o s a d C h a ir m a n t h a t y o u w o u ld k n o w t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e a r e m a k i n g t h r e a ts t o y o u r l i fe o r t h is p e r s o n i s t h r e a t e n i n g to – t o k ill y o u a n d n o t h i n g – th e l a w is d o i n g o r i t i s d i ffi c u l t f o r y o u t o h a n d o v e r t h is p e r s o n t o t h e l a w f o r th e l a w to d e a l w i th t h is p e r s o n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Mr … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n d id y o u g iv e – w h e n d i d y o u g i v e t h e v i d e o to the Hawks? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): I can m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o m y p h o n e y o u r w o r s h i p b e c a u s e I d i d fo r w a r d t h i s 20 v id e o t o Mr N to m b e la . I even called him. I h a d a c o n v e r s a t io n w i th him. He said I must take care of myself … C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e j u s t r e p e a t t h a t. I w a n t t o h e a r th e Z u lu p a r t a s w e ll . Ye s . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I s h o u ld take care. Page 25 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : a m g o i n g to c h u r c h . Now I I am armed your worship because I have a fir e a r m . S o I h a d t o c a r r y m y f ir e a r m w i th . T h e n I t o o k a d e c is i o n t h a t ti m e y o u r w o r s h i p t h a t a n y o n e w h o c o m e s c l o s e r t o m e e v e n i f i t i s in t h e f a r m I w i ll n o t d i e a lo n e . Th a t i s w h a t I s a i d to m y c h i ld r e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o l e t u s tr y a n d l o c a te t h e m o n th w h e n y o u g a v e t h e v id e o to t h e H a w k s . A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t y o u r m e e t i n g w i t h th e H a w k s w a s e a r ly th is y e a r, w a s i t J a n u a r y o r t h e r e a b o u t ? 10 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : 11 J u n e 2 0 1 9 w h e n I f o r w a r d e d th e v i d e o t o t h e H a w k s , i t w a s t h e 11 t h o f J u n e 2019. I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l b e c a u s e th i s p e r s o n r e p li e d , th e r e is a r e s p o n s e fr o m t h i s p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is Mr N to m b e l a ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s , M r N to m b e la . CHAIRPERSON: D id y o u j u s t f o r w a r d t h e v i d e o to t h e H a w k s a n d s p o k e t o t h e m o n t h e p h o n e o r b y S M S o r th e y a l s o m e t w i th y o u a n d t o o k a fu ll s t a t e m e n t a b o u t th e ( i n d i s t i n c t) ? 20 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : What h a p p e n e d i s , Yo u r W o r s h i p , I u s e d a n o t h e r p h o n e t o c a ll h i m , w h i ls t o n t h e o t h e r p h o n e t h e v i d e o w a s s tr e a m i n g fo r h i m t o l is t e n to th e c o n v e r s a ti o n o r th e c o n t e n t o f t h e v id e o s o i t w a s a t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n u s i n g t w o p h o n e s Yo u r W o r s h ip . Even when Busisiwe M k h w e b a n e w a s t h e r e I s tr e a m e d t h i s v i d e o f o r e v e r y o n e t o l is t e n i t Page 26 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 w a s i n a h a l l a n d p e o p l e w e r e in a t te n d a n c e a n d I w a n t e d p e o p l e t o h e a r b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t m e i n t h e v i d e o . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y u p t o n o w, t h e H a w k s h a v e n o t t a k e n a n y s t a te m e n t fr o m y o u – w r it t e n s ta t e m e n t fr o m y o u a b o u t t h e t h r e a t s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w i f t h e r e ’s a n y th in g a t a l l t h a t t h e y h a v e d o n e a f t e r th e y r e c e i v e d t h e v i d e o c o n c e r n in g y o u r t h r e a t s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : No, nothing. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e p e r s o n y o u h a v e b e e n c o m m u n i c a t in g w it h i n r e g a r d t o t h e t h r e a t s is a Mr N t o m b e l a ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : That is c o r r e c t Yo u r W o r s h i p , it i s M r N to m b e la fr o m t h e H a w k s , a s w e l l a s a t Vr e d e P o l ic e S ta t io n , t h e s ta t io n c o m m a n d e r, h e k n o w s a b o u t th e v id e o . CHAIRPERSON: S o d i d y o u a ls o s h o w t h e v i d e o t o t h e s ta t io n c o m m a n d e r a t Vr e d e P o li c e S t a ti o n ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : I made h i m t o li s t e n to t h e v i d e o Yo u r W o r s h i p d u r i n g th e p a s s in g o f Mr – it 20 w a s t h e fu n e r a l o f M r N g w e n y a , s o I m a d e h i m t o l is t e n a n d i n – t h e y w e r e s a y i n g w h o s e n e x t a n d th e y s a y i n g s o m e b o d y – a n o t h e r w il l b i te t h e d u s t i f i t ’s n o t m y s e l f i t ’s g o i n g t o b e M r N c o n g w a n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t – i s t h a t p a r t o f w h a t is s a i d i n th e v id e o ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o w h a t I’ v e j u s t s a i d n o w Yo u r W o r s h i p , i t’s s o m e th in g w h i c h w a s s a id d u r in g Page 27 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e f u n e r a l o f Mr N g w e n y a , th a t w h o i s n e x t, in t h e v i d e o i ts e l f Yo u r W o r s h i p , w h a t is c o n t a i n e d t h e r e is th a t M r D h la m i n i s h o u l d b e k il l e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e p e r s o n s w h o a r e h a v i n g t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n a r e s h o w n , th e y c a n b e s e e n o n t h e v i d e o ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I t ’s ju s t a r e c o r d i n g t h a t d o e s n o t s h o w a p e r s o n Yo u r W o r s h i p b u t i t ’s a r e c o r d i n g , t h i s p e r s o n w a s d r iv in g a n d th e r e ’s a r e c o r d i n g o f t h is p e r s o n a s t h e y a r e c o n v e r s i n g a n d m e n ti o n th e ir n a m e , t h i s p e r s o n i s m e n ti o n i n g h i s n a m e , h e s a y s h is n a m e is Z w a k e l e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: I h e a r d e v id e n c e s o m e ti m e b a c k in r e g a r d t o the a v i a ti o n w o r k s tr e a m o f r e p o r t s t h a t h a d b e e n m a d e to t h e p o lic e a f e w y e a r s a g o o f th r e a ts t h a t w e r e b e i n g m a d e t o t h e o w n e r o f t h e c o m p a n y c a l l e d K o r e n e k a a n d I w a s to l d n o t h i n g h a d b e e n d o n e fo r a l o n g t i m e a b o u t t h e t h r e a t s t o h e r. S o it ’s v e r y c o n c e r n i n g if t h r e a ts a r e m a d e to t h e liv e s t o p e o p l e , th e y r e p o r t t o th e L a w E n fo r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s a n d n o t h i n g h a p p e n s a n d t h e L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s d o n ’t r e p o r t b a c k t o th e p e o p le w h a t t h e y a r e d o in g a b o u t t h o s e th r e a ts , n o b o d y g e ts 20 arrested, nothing happens. S o I t h in k a f t e r t h i s y o u ’l l – a s y o u s a i d y o u ’ ll a r r a n g e f o r a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t b y Mr D h l a m i n i w h e r e h e w i ll d e ta il e v e r y t h i n g a b o u t th e t h r e a t s a n d w h o h e r e p o r t e d t o w h e r e h e w i ll in c l u d e th e n a m e s t h a t h e is n o t m e n ti o n i n g n o w a n d t h e n t h e p e o p l e ’s n a m e s w h o a r e m e n ti o n e d c a n b e g iv e n R u l e 3 n o ti c e s a n d M r D h l a m in i m i g h t h a v e t o c o m e b a c k w h e n h e c a n m e n ti o n t h e n a m e s Page 28 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 a ft e r t h e y h a v e b e e n g i v e n n o t ic e s a n d i t w i ll b e n e c e s s a r y to – f o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o e s ta b lis h fr o m t h e H a w k s w h a t ’s g o i n g o n a b o u t t h e t h r e a ts a n d a b o u t t h e c o m p l a in t t h a t M r D h l a m i n i b r o u g h t t o t h e ir a tt e n ti o n a n d w h a t h a v e t h e y d o n e . S o w e ’ ll n e e d t o – t h e l e g a l t e a m w i ll n e e d t o tr y a n d g e t f a c ts a s t o w h a t ’s h a p p e n i n g b o t h i n r e g a r d t o t h e K o r e n e k a a s w e l l a s M r D h la m i n i’s m a t t e r, t h a n k y o u Mr D h l a m i n i . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a i r m a n , M r D h l a m in i j u s t t o s u m m a r is e t h i s a s p e c t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e , m y q u e s t io n is , a r e t h e r e o th e r p e o p l e o u ts id e o f y o u r s e l f a n d M r N c o n g w a n e w h o y o u k n o w h a v e 10 a ls o b e e n th r e a te n e d ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t, b e n e fic i a r i e s fr o m ( i n d is ti n c t) t h e y d o m e n t io n t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y a r e g e t t in g th r e a ts a s w e ll b u t t h e y a r e a fr a i d to t a l k a b o u t i t b u t y e s t h e y a r e g e tt i n g t h r e a ts . W e a ls o k n o w o f o t h e r p e o p le w h o d i e d o r w h o w e r e k il le d , a p a r t fr o m M r N g w e n y a , t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r g e n tl e m a n w h o w a s i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h e d a i r y – t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t , h e w a s k il le d before he could Bloemfontein. even reach Bloem fontein, 10 k il o m e tr e s to T h o s e th a t k il le d – t h e y b e li e v e d h e w a s d e a d a t th e s c e n e a n d y e t h e w a s n o w i n h o s p i ta l t h a t ’s w h e r e h e g a v e o u t h is 20 s t a te m e n t w h i ls t h e w a s i n h o s p i ta l , to t h e p o l ic e . He was on the m e d i a , th e n e w s p a p e r ( in d is ti n c t) a s w e l l a s o n T V, e v e n t o d a y I h a v e n ’t h e a r d w h a t th e l a w e n f o r c e r s – w h a t s t e p s th e y h a v e t a k e n . I t h u r t s , it ’s r e a l ly d is t u r b i n g I d o n ’ t w a n t t h is to h a p p e n to m y f a m il y members. I f t h i s c a n h a p p e n to m y f a m ily m e m b e r s I’ ll e i t h e r b e i n p r i s o n o r I ’l l b e d e a d my s e l f . Page 29 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u a r e r e l a t in g w h a t h a p p e n e d t o M o s e s C h a u k e i n th e l a s t a c c o u n t y o u ’ v e ju s t g i v e n ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: In respect of the funeral you attended of P h il e m o n N g w e n y a , w a s h e n o t a b e n e fi c i a r y ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : H e w a s a b e n e fic i a r y, h e w a s th e r e w h e n w e w e r e t a lk i n g o r d is c u s s i n g . H e d ie d a ft e r b e i n g t h r e a t e n e d , b e in g t o l d t h a t h e w i ll d i e . T h e fir s t p e r s o n t o t h r e a t e n h i m w a s Tu to K h a n y e , t h e n w h e n h e u t t e r e d o r t h r e a te n e d h is 10 li fe w e w e r e a l l t h e r e a n d t h e m e d i a w a s t h e r e . P e o p l e , t h e c o m m u n i ty m e m b e r s w o u l d h e a r th is d ir e c tly f r o m t h e p e o p le w h o a r e r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h i s b e c a u s e i n Vr e d e o n c e y o u m e n t i o n t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t y o u w o n ’ t s le e p i n y o u r h o u s e …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: I’ m s o r r y, h a n g o n , I t h in k t h e i n te r p r e t a t i o n w a s n ’ t c o m p le t e , l e t h i m j u s t r e p e a t w h a t h e s a i d , h e s a i d s o m e t h i n g a b o u t M r Sebenzi Zwane. INTERPRETER: My apologies. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : My a p o lo g i e s , i f i n Vr e d e , y o u h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t o r 20 S e b e n z i Z w a n e y o u w o n ’ t s le e p i n y o u r h o u s e , y o u ’l l h a v e t o r u n a w a y fr o m y o u r h o u s e b e c a u s e t h e y w i ll c h a s e a f te r y o u o r th r e a te n t o k il l y o u . T h e r e a s o n w h y th is is s u e is n o w b e fo r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n i t w a s because of myself and Mr Ncongwane, we had to brave ourselves and c o m e b e fo r e th e C o m m i s s i o n a n d r e p o r t b e fo r e e v e r y o n e is b e i n g k il le d o r e v e r y o n e is k il l e d . Th e y d o u t te r w o r d s l ik e w e h a v e t o b e k il le d , Page 30 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e y d o n ’ t h a v e a n y r e g a r d f o r u s … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: I’ m s o r r y b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d M r D h la m i n i , y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g , I’ m n o t s u r e w h a t i t m e a n s a n d I d o n ’ t th i n k t h e in t e r p r e te r a ls o u n d e r s t o o d w h a t y o u m e a n t ( i s i Z u l u l a n g u a g e s p o k e n ) M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : We are n o t s c a r e d o f th e m w e s a i d w e s h o u ld b e k ill e d b u t w e a r e n o t s c a r e d o f t h e m . W e k n o w w h e n o u r ti m e c o m e s w e w i ll d i e . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y le t ’s j u s t c o n n e c t t h a t p r o p e r ly s o y o u w e r e s a y in g t h a t c e r t a in p e o p le t e l l y o u th a t y o u s h o u ld b e k il le d b u t y o u a r e 10 not scared of them. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Correct Yo u r W o r s h i p . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e n p r o c e e d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o w I ju s t w a n t to c l a r i f y, Tu to K h a n y e y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d i n y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r li e r, y e s t e r d a y. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: H e ’s o n e o f th e p e o p l e w h o w o r k s in A g r ic u l t u r e y o u r e v i d e n c e is t h a t h e ’s o n e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o M r S e b e n z i Z w a n e u s e s t o c o l le c t f o r m a t io n fr o m Vr e d e ? 20 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : That is c o r r e c t h e is h is s p y o r M r S e b e n i Z w a n e ’s s p y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n m y la s t q u e s t i o n i s , a r e y o u – h a v e y o u b e e n t a k i n g p r o t e c ti v e m e a s u r e s , o t h e r th a n c a r r y in g a f ir e a r m a r e y o u a b l e t o t a k e p r o t e c ti v e m e a s u r e s t o l o o k a f t e r y o u r s e l f ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINI DHLAMINI Page 31 of 217 (through i nt e r pr e t e r ) : 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A n y t h i n g , f o r i n s t a n c e i f I’ m a b o u t to h o l d o r c a l l a m e e ti n g I w i ll i n f o r m t h e s t a ti o n c o m m a n d e r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Mr D h l a m in i a r e t h e r e a n y – n o b e f o r e w e g o t h e r e , t h e r e a r e tw o p e o p l e ’s n a m e s th a t h a v e p o p p e d u p t h e o n e is M r C h a n d r a m a P r a s a d w h o ’s a ls o r e fe r r e d to a s C P, d o y o u k n o w th a t n a m e a t a ll ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : In p a s s i n g , n o I d o n ’ t k n o w t h is p e r s o n – h i m , b u t I h e a r d a b o u t h is n a m e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u ’v e h e a r d a b o u t h is n a m e in r e l a ti o n t o 10 what? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : I heard t h a t h e ’s a p r o b l e m a s t o e x a c t ly w h a t p r o b l e m h e w a s c a u s i n g I w o u ld n ’t b e a b l e t o te ll y o u b u t I h e a r d t h a t h e m u s t b e r e m o v e d o r h is tr o u b le s o m e , h e m u s t b e r e m o v e d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Where does he work? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I h a v e n o knowledge as to where he works. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O r w h e r e d id h e w o r k ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : 20 I’m not sure. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t ’s f i n e , n o n o t a p r o b le m , t h a t ’s fi n e . T h e n e x t n a m e is M r W il li e B a s s o n w h o w il l b e c o m i n g to g iv e e v i d e n c e h e r e , d o y o u k n o w M r W i ll ie B a s s o n ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s I d o k n o w h i m h e ’s a r e s i d e n t o r h e w o r k s in Vr e d e , th a t is c o r r e c t. Page 32 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: u n d e r s t a n d w h o y o u k n o w. Ye s I j u s t w a n te d to id e n ti fy, t o S o i t ’s M r B a s s o n y o u k n o w, y o u d o n ’ t r e a l ly k n o w m u c h a b o u t Pr a s a d a n d y o u c e r ta in ly k n e w P h i l e m o n Ngwenya. MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINI DHLAMINI (through interpreter): Ve r y w e ll . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d th e n y o u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a ir m a n a b o u t M o s e s C h a u k e w h a t y o u k n o w o f w h a t h a p p e n e d to M o s e s Chauke? 10 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o t h a t’s i t , I ’ m j u s t s u m m a r is in g . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A r e t h e r e a n y o th e r m a t t e r s y o u w o u l d li k e t o b r in g t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e C h a ir m a n a s w e c l o s e ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s t h e r e is a n o th e r f a r m e r, f r o m W a r d e n . H e w a s s h o t fr o m – th e r e w a s a b l a c k c a r w h i c h w e r e s h o t s t h a t w e r e fir e d fr o m a b l a c k c a r, h e d i e d – h e d i e d a n d h e w a s b u r ie d b u t t h e c a s e d i d n o t p r o c e e d . I t w a s t h o s e p e o p l e , o n c e y o u ta lk a b o u t t h e a c t iv i t ie s o r w o r k w h ic h is d o n e i n t h e 20 A g r ic u l t u r e t h e s e p e o p le w i ll i n t e r j e c t a n d f ig h t y o u . T h e r e w a s a ls o a n o t h e r g e n t le m a n fr o m W a r d e n w h o w a s k ill e d … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s t h e s e c o n d o n e n o w, y o u h a v e t a lk e d a b o u t t h e fi r s t p e r s o n f r o m W a r d e n , y o u ’v e h e a r d a b o u t t h e fi r s t p e r s o n – o r y o u ’v e to l d th e C h a ir m a n a b o u t th e f ir s t p e r s o n f r o m Wa r d e n w h o w a s k il l e d , a n d y o u ’v e a s s o c ia t e d a b l a c k c a r w it h t h a t Page 33 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 p a r t ic u l a r a s s a s s i n a t i o n ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Correct. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Do you know the name of he deceased in that case? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I m a y n o t r e m e m b e r h is n a m e b u t I h a v e fa m i ly m e m b e r s a n d o t h e r f a r m e r s fr o m Wa r d e n w h o c a n g iv e m e h is n a m e a n d I d o b e li e v e M r N c o n g w a n e k n o w s h is n a m e a s w e l l. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 A n d t h e n t h e s e c o n d p e r s o n y o u ’r e a b o u t t o t e l l th e C h a i r m a n a b o u t , w h o w a s t h a t ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : The s e c o n d o n e is t h e o n e w h o w a s i n v e s ti g a ti n g t h e is s u e o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m w h o d id n o t e v e n a r r iv e a t B l o e m f o n te in . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t’s C h a u k e ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , t h e t h ir d p e r s o n i s N g w e n y a . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n y o t h e r m a t te r s Mr D h l a m i n i ? MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINI DHLAMINI (through interpreter): Nothing e ls e . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a ir m a n u n le s s y o u have other q u e s t io n s , I h a v e e x h a u s t e d a ll t h e o n e s I h a v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s th a n k y o u . M r D h l a m i n i y o u s a i d y o u s h o w e d t h e v id e o to t h e s t a ti o n c o m m a n d e r a t Vr e d e P o l ic e S t a t io n i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s o n e y o u h a d s h o w n h i m th e v i d e o a n d i t w a s Page 34 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 c le a r fr o m t h e v id e o th a t y o u r l if e w a s u n d e r t h r e a t, t h e p o l ic e s h o u l d h a v e d o n e s o m e th in g a b o u t it , b u t I w a n t t o fi n d o u t w h e t h e r y o u d i d a s k h i m t o d o a n y t h i n g a b o u t th e s e th r e a ts ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I d i d t e l l h i m Yo u r W o r s h i p , b u t n o th i n g m u c h i n t e r m s o f t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t I g o t fr o m h i m e x c e p t t h a t h e s a id , h e r e a r e m y n u m b e r s , i f y o u h a v e a p r o b le m c o n t a c t m e b u t y o u s h o u ld a l s o p r o te c t y o u r s e lf . CHAIRPERSON: D i d th e y o p e n a n y fi le s o t h a t t h e y w o u l d u n d e r t a k e a n in v e s ti g a t io n i n t o t h e s e t h r e a ts ? 10 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Th e r e w a s n o r e c o r d , w h e n I w a s h a v i n g a c o n v e r s a ti o n i t w a s ju s t a o n e - o n o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n , t h e r e w a s n o r e c o r d o f it , i t w a s n e v e r w r i t t e n d o w n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s – w e r e y o u s h o w i n g h i m t h e v id e o a t t h e P o lic e S t a ti o n ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s h e w a s l is te n in g to t h e v i d e o a t t h e P o li c e S t a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t o n ly th e tw o o f y o u o r w e r e t h e r e o t h e r p e o p l e that were with you? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : 20 It was ju s t t h e tw o o f u s b e c a u s e I d id e v e n in f o r m M r N c o n g w a n e t h a t I’ m g o i n g t o s h o w ( i n d i s t i n c t) th e v id e o a t t h e P o lic e S t a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: D id y o u s a y t h a t h e m a k e s s o m e n o t e s d u r i n g th e c o n v e r s a ti o n o r a s h e w a s w a tc h in g th e v id e o ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e n o t ta k e a n y s t a t e m e n t f r o m y o u ? Page 35 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : No he didn’t. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e n o t a s k a n y p o li c e o ff ic e r u n d e r h i m t o ta k e a s t a te m e n t fr o m y o u ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : No the a n s w e r is n o b u t w h a t h e s a id – n o t o n t h a t d a y b u t o n a n o th e r d a y that, did you inform the Hawks about this incident? C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u h a v e r e c o ll e c t io n o f m o r e o r l e s s w h e n i t w a s – w h ic h m o n t h i t w a s w h e n y o u s h o w e d th e s t a ti o n c o m m a n d e r t h e 10 v id e o ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I t t o o k a w h il e , I th i n k i t w a s a b o u t t h r e e m o n t h s a f te r t h e i n c i d e n t o f r e c e iv in g t h e v id e o t h a t I’v e s h o w n t h e s t a ti o n c o m m a n d e r. The person that I in f o r m e d , i m m e d i a te ly, Yo u r W o r s h i p a b o u t t h e v i d e o i t w a s M r N to m b e la , I fo r w a r d e d t h e v i d e o to h i m a n d t o ld h i m a b o u t t h e v i d e o . CHAIRPERSON: M y r e c o ll e c t io n i s t h a t y o u s a i d i t w a s i n J u n e th is y e a r w h e n y o u – I t h i n k 11 J u n e w h e n y o u i n f o r m e d Mr N t o m b e l a a b o u t t h e v i d e o , w h e n y o u s e n t i t t o h i m , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : 20 I made r e fe r e n c e to m y c e ll p h o n e m e s s a g e s , Yo u r W o r s h ip , s o y e s i n d e e d i t is t h e 11 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th a t w o u ld m e a n th a t i t w a s a f t e r t h e 11 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 9 w h e n y o u h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e s t a ti o n c o m m a n d e r a t Vr e d e P o lic e S t a ti o n a n d s h o w e d h i m t h e v i d e o , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Page 36 of 217 Ye s 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C h a ir i t a s a f te r t h e 11 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 9 t h a t I h a d a m e e t in g w i t h t h e s t a ti o n c o m m a n d e r o f th e Vr e d e P o li c e S t a t i o n , t h o u g h I d i d n o t n o t e d o w n m y a c t iv it i e s b u t t h e l a s t d a t e th a t is r e fl e c t – o r t h e l a s t e n tr y t h a t I s e e o n m y p h o n e is t h e o n e t h a t is g u i d i n g m e a s t o when the a c ti v i ti e s o r t h e la s t d a t e w h e n I r e c e iv e d t h e v i d e o . CHAIRPERSON: S o a f te r y o u h a d s h o w n th e s t a t i o n c o m m a n d e r th is v id e o a n d y o u h a d a d is c u s s i o n , h a s h e fo l lo w e d u p i n a n y w a y w i th y o u o r s e n t a n y o f h is p o l ic e o ff ic e r s to t a k e th is i s s u e o f th e th r e a ts a g a in s t y o u fu r t h e r ? 10 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o . CHAIRPERSON: And you have not received any report – report backs e i t h e r f r o m t h e H a w k s o r fr o m h i m a b o u t w h a t th e y m a y b e d o i n g a b o u t t h e s e t h r e a ts ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u s a y t h a t o n e o f t h e p e r s o n s o r th a t t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s m e a n t t o c a r r y o u t t h e t h r e a ts o r t o k i ll y o u , l iv e s in the same area as yourself? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: He has not been arrested? 20 MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO D H LA M I N I : No he works at the m u n i c i p a li t y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Right now do you move around without any p r o t e c t io n fr o m t h e p o li c e o r t h e s t a te ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I t h i n k I c a n p r o te c t m y s e l f b e t t e r t h a n t h e m b e c a u s e w h a t e v e r I t o l d t h e m t h e y d id n o th i n g a b o u t Page 37 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 it . CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u w is h a n y t h i n g to b e d o n e t o h a v e t h e s e t h r e a ts in v e s t i g a t e d ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: O k a y c o r r e c t Yo u r W o r s h i p t h r e a t e n i n g t o k il l s o m e o n e o r k il li n g s o m e o n e is a n o ff e n c e s o th e y s h o u l d h a v e in v e s t i g a t e d t h e m a t te r. C o m e to u s a n d l o o k a t t h e v i d e o a n d th e n a m e is b e i n g m e n ti o n e d in t h e v i d e o s o t h a t t h e y c a n f o ll o w u p a n d t o e v e n fi n d o u t w h o is s u e d t h a t in s tr u c t io n t h a t t h is s h o u l d b e c a r r i e d o u t , t h e t h r e a ts . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I am – with due respect the S o u th A fr ic a n L a w E n f o r c e s a r e t a k in g ti m e to a t te n d t o m a t te r s l ik e t h is . S o I h a v e m y w a y th a t I c a n d e a l w i t h t h is is s u e . CHAIRPERSON: T h e – w o u l d y o u l ik e t h e c o m m i s s io n t o s p e a k t h e L a w E n fo r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s i n o r d e r t o s e e w h a t p r o t e c ti o n c a n b e g iv e n to you? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s i f t h e r e i s a n y t h i n g t h a t t h e y c a n a s s is t m e w i t h t h e y c a n d o i t . CHAIRPERSON: 20 O k a y I w o u l d l ik e t h e l e g a l t e a m t o a n d t h e a d m i n is tr a t i o n a n d t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s t o d o w h a t th e y n o r m a l ly d o w h e n p e o p l e w h o a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s io n a r e u n d e r t h r e a t t o s e e w h a t can be done. A n d a l s o t o e s t a b li s h w h y M r D h l a m i n i h a s n o t b e e n g iv e n a n y r e p o r t b a c k s e i th e r b y t h e H a w k s a n d t h e S t a t io n C o m m a n d e r a t Vr e d e P o l ic e S t a ti o n a b o u t t h e th r e a ts t o h i s l i fe th a t h e h a s b r o u g h t t o th e i r a t t e n t i o n a n d w h a t is b e i n g d o n e a b o u t i n v e s ti g a ti n g t h e s e Page 38 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h r e a ts a n d i f t h e r e is e n o u g h e v id e n c e a r r e s ti n g t h e p e o p l e c o n c e r n e d . A n d th e n o n c e th e l e g a l t e a m h a s s p o k e n t o t h e m it m u s t p le a s e r e p o r t b a c k to M r D h l a m in i i t m u s t n o t d o li k e t h e H a w k s a n d th e S t a t i o n C o m m a n d e r a t Vr e d e . It must report back what transpired in that d is c u s s io n a n d I m u s t b e k e p t i n fo r m e d . I s th e r e a n y th i n g e ls e y o u w a n t t o t e ll m e c o n c e r n i n g t h e e i t h e r t h r e a ts t o y o u r l i fe o r t h r e a ts to a n y b o d y i n t h e – in th e – i n y o u r o r g a n i s a ti o n r e la t in g t o t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m b e fo r e w e c o n c l u d e ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s . My r e q u e s t C h a ir is th a t 10 – w e r e q u e s t th a t th is d a ir y p r o j e c t is s u e b e fi n a l is e d – b e d e a l t w i th a n d i t b e fi n a l is e d b e c a u s e p e o p l e i n o u r a r e a t h e y n o w liv e i n fe a r. I f t h e g o v e r n m e n t is t a k i n g a d e c i s i o n o f n o t f u n d in g t h a t p r o j e c t a n y m o r e a n d s h u t i t d o w n s o b e i t b e c a u s e i t is c le a r t h a t th is p r o je c t w a s n e v e r m e a n t f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f u s a s t h e c o m m u n i ty o f Vr e d e . B u t i t w a s f o r ju s t c r i m i n a l a c tiv i ti e s o r c r i m in a ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y i t w a s m e a n t fo r t h i e v e s ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t . U s i n g u s o u r names CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: So that they can get the m o n e y o r th e f u n d s fr o m t h e g o v e r n m e n t . O u r liv e s a r e n o w in d a n g e r b e c a u s e o f t h is . L o o k in g a t t h e p e r c e n ta g e – t h e s h a r e p e r c e n t a g e i t w a s c l e a r t h a t w e w e r e b e i n g d e c e iv e d . W h y w e w e r e n o t g iv e n 1 0 0 % o f t h e s h a r e h o l d in g . I f t h is w a s fo r t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e fa r m e r s w h y s h o u l d i t b e fo r t h e – t h e g o v e r n m e n t s h o u l d p r o f it fr o m i t i f i t i s m e a n t Page 39 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 f o r th e fa r m e r s . E v e n r i g h t n o w t h e d a i r y p r o je c t is f u n c ti o n i n g a n d t h e r e a r e a w h o l e lo t o f a c t iv it i e s t h a t a r e h a p p e n in g t h e r e l ik e s t e a l in g o ff t h e s t o c k a n d s t u ff a n d w e k n o w w e h a v e c a s e s . Nothing is h a p p e n in g in t h a t d a ir y – t h e r e i s n o s u c c e s s t h a t w i ll c o m e o u t o f th a t project. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w o u l d th e b e n e f ic i a r i e s l ik e t o s e e h a p p e n w i th t h is d a ir y p r o j e c t ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I : M o s t o f th e p e o p l e o r b e n e fic i a r i e s h a v e n o in t e r e s t a n y m o r e in t h i s p r o je c t b e c a u s e i t 10 s t a r t e d o ff o n a v e r y b a d fo o ti n g a n d a l o t o f p e o p l e a r e lo s i n g th e ir liv e s b e c a u s e o f t h i s p r o je c t . S o t h e y h a v e n o i n te r e s t a n y m o r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. Is t h a t a l l y o u s ti ll h a d to s a y ? M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . M r D h l a m in i I w a n t t o t h a n k y o u f o r h a v i n g c o m e t o t h e c o m m is s i o n t o g iv e e v i d e n c e . E s p e c i a lly w h e n y o u c a m e to t h e c o m m i s s io n d e s p i t e t h r e a ts t o y o u r l if e . T h e r e a r e m a n y p e o p l e in t h e c o u n tr y s o m e o f t h e m i n h ig h p o s it i o n s i n g o v e r n m e n t e n ti ti e s I b e l i e v e w h o m u s t k n o w a l o t a b o u t is s u e s t h a t th i s c o m m i s s io n is in v e s t i g a t in g in c l u d i n g s t a t e c a p t u r e a n d s e r i o u s c o r r u p ti o n . W h o d e s p it e m y c a l ls 20 a r e n o t c o m in g fo r w a r d to t e l l t h e c o m m is s io n a n d t h e n a t i o n w h a t th e y k n o w. B u t t h e y w o u l d a l l p r e t e n d a n d li k e e v e r y b o d y t o b e l ie v e th e y s u p p o r t th e w o r k o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d y e t t h e y w it h h o l d v e r y c r u c ia l in f o r m a ti o n t h a t is r e le v a n t t o w h a t t h e c o m m is s i o n is i n v e s ti g a ti n g . I h a v e n o d o u b t in m y m i n d t h a t s o m e o f t h e m w o u l d b e p a s t a n d p r e s e n t h i g h o ff ic ia ls w it h in g o v e r n m e n t . A n d m a y b e s o m e f e a r th a t t h e y m a y Page 40 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 lo s e t h e ir j o b s . A n d I d o n o t w a n t t o m a k e l ig h t o f a n y fe a r f o r l o s s o f jo b s b y a n y b o d y. B u t I d o w a n t t o h ig h li g h t th e a p p r e c i a ti o n o f t h e c o m m i s s io n fo r s o m e b o d y lik e y o u w h o d e s p i te t h r e a t s t o t h e ir l iv e s d e c i d e t h a t th e y w i ll c o m e t o th e c o m m is s io n a n d h e l p t h e c o m m i s s io n e v e n i f t h e y k n o w t h a t t h e ir li v e s m a y b e u n d e r t h r e a t . S o I j u s t w a n t y o u to k n o w t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n f u ll y a p p r e c ia t e s w h a t y o u h a v e d o n e b y c o m in g f o r w a r d to g i v e e v id e n c e d e s p i t e a ll o f t h e s e t h i n g s . A n d I t h a n k y o u a l s o f o r t h e r o le y o u h a v e p la y e d t o tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t v a r io u s b o d i e s k n o w w h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t th e d a ir y f a r m p r o je c t . T h e 10 c o m m i s s io n m a y n o t b e a b l e t o r e a c h a n y c o n c l u s i o n a b o u t th e d a ir y f a r m p r o je c t f o r q u i te s o m e ti m e b u t I w a n t to a s s u r e y o u a n d a ll t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s th a t t h e e v id e n c e t h a t w i ll b e g i v e n th a t y o u h a v e g iv e n a n d t h a t w i ll b e g iv e n b y o t h e r w i t n e s s e s t o th e c o m m i s s io n i n r e g a r d t o t h is p r o je c t w il l b e ta k e n i n t o a c c o u n t a n d c o n s id e r e d a n d f in d in g s w il l b e m a d e i n t h e e n d . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h o n c e a g a in t h e n M r D h la m i n i y o u a r e e x c u s e d . A s I i n d i c a t e d e a r li e r o n t h e le g a l t e a m w il l a s k t o t a lk t o y o u i n o r d e r t o p r e p a r e s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t a n d I h a v e n o d o u b t y o u w i ll c o n ti n u e t o c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e m . M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h y o u a r e e x c u s e d . W e w il l t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t it is t w e n ty p a s t e l e v e n . W e w i ll r e s u m e a t tw e n ty fi v e t o t w e l v e . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES Page 41 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms B u t h e l e z i. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M o r n i n g C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ar e y o u r e a d y ? A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s w e a r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir … CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O u r n e x t w i t n e s s is M r N c o n g w a n e . H e is o n e o f t h e – h e w a s o n e o f th e i n te n d e d b e n e f ic i a r ie s f o r t h e Vr e d e 10 D a ir y P r o je c t. H e w il l t e s ti f y in i s i Z u l u a s w e ll . M a y I a s k t h a t th e witness be sworn in? CHAIRPERSON: J a l e t h i m b e s w o r n i n o r a n a ffi r m a ti o n b e a d m i n is te r e d . R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : M e s h a c k M p a le n i N c o n g w a n e . REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n w i th t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E 20 (through i nt e r pr e t e r ) : No o b j e c ti o n s . REGISTRAR: Do you consider the oath binding on your conscience? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d . Page 42 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 I N T E R P R E T E R : S w o r n in . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : ( d u ly s w or n , s t a t e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n L e r a to . I h a v e s a i d M s I n te r p r e t e r t h a t y o u r in t e r p r e t a ti o n is v e r y g o o d . T h e r e a r e j u s t c e r ta in a s p e c ts w h e r e I t h i n k y o u – w h e r e h e w a s a s k e d w h e t h e r h e c o n s i d e r e d t h e o a th b i n d i n g o n h is c o n s c ie n c e th e tr a n s l a ti o n m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a c c u r a t e . ( Is i Z u l u ) . O k a y. I a m s o r r y. W e w il l ju s t d o i t – w e w i ll d o i t a fr e s h . L e t u s d o t h e w h o l e o a th a g a in a fr e s h . 10 R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : M e s h a c k M p a le n i N c o n g w a n e . REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n w i th t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r pr e t e r ) : No o b j e c ti o n . REGISTRAR: Do you consider the oath binding on your conscience? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y, I a m s o r r y. I t h in k ( is i Z u l u ) is ( is i Zu l u ) . 20 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d . I N T E R P R E T E R : S w o r n in . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Page 43 of 217 ( d u ly 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 s w or n , s t a t e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a n k s . CHAIRPERSON: O th e r w is e e v e r y th in g w a s o k a y. I t w a s j u s t th a t a s p e c t o n l y. I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a n k s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 10 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir M r N c o n g w a n e ’s s t a t e m e n t is in E n g l is h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L Z I: I h a v e c o n fi r m e d w it h h i m t h a t h e d o e s – h e c a n r e a d a n d u n d e r s ta n d E n g li s h … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : B u t h e p r e f e r s t o t e s t if y i n is i Zu l u . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. J u s t p u t q u e s ti o n s t h a t a r e m e a n t to e n a b l e h i m t o te ll m e e x a c t ly th a t t o h i m . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M r N c o n g w a n e d o y o u c o n f ir m t h a t y o u r s t a te m e n t i s in E n g l is h b u t y o u a r e a b le t o r e a d a n d u n d e r s ta n d t h e E n g l is h l a n g u a g e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E Correct. Page 44 of 217 (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir, m a y I p r o p o s e t h a t t h is b u n d le containing M r N c o n g w a n e ’s statement be marked as EXHIBIT HH3. CHAIRPERSON: Th e fi le c o n ta in i n g th e a ff i d a v i t b y o r s t a te m e n t b y M r M e s h a c k M p a l e n i N c o n g w a n e w ill b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T H H 3 a n d I t h i n k w e m u s t ju s t fo r th e s a k e o f h e l p i n g t h e tr a n s c r ib e r s s p e ll M p a l e n i a n d N c o n g w a n e . M p a le n i i s M - P- A - L - E- N - I . N c o n g w a n e i s N - C - O - N - G W - A- N - E . T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 10 Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr Ncongwane do you c o n fir m t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t th a t is a p p e a r i n g o n E X H I B I T H H 3 p a g e s 1 t o e ig h t is t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u m a d e f o r th e C o m m i s s i o n ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Correct. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d t h a t t h e s ig n a tu r e o n p a g e 8 is y o u r s ig n a tu r e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Correct. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Thank you. Mr N c o n g w a n e w o u l d y o u p l e a s e t e l l u s w h e r e d o y o u li v e ? 20 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : I stay a t T h e m b a li h l e t o w n s h ip n u m b e r 2 3 2 5 K h a n y e S tr e e t M o d is e S e c ti o n i n Vr e d e . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t d o y o u d o fo r a l iv in g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : f a r m e r. I h a v e c a t tl e a n d I a ls o p r o d u c e m ilk . Page 45 of 217 I am a 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . M r N c o n g w a n e I b e li e v e y o u a r e a w a r e th a t t h e r e a s o n f o r y o u b e i n g h e r e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n it t o g iv e u s t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t – r e l a ti n g t o y o u r c o n n e c ti o n w i th t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . W o u ld y o u p le a s e t h e n g iv e u s t h e b a c k g r o u n d in f o r m a ti o n t h a t c o n n e c t e d y o u t o t h is Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I was in t e r e s te d i n d a ir y o r w o r k i n g w i th m i lk . I t a ll s t a r t e d b y m e a t te n d i n g t h e m e e ti n g s w i t h o t h e r f a r m s i n Q w a q w a r e g a r d i n g d a ir y o r m ilk i n g . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s p r o c e e d . 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : m o n th w e w il l h o l d w o r k s h o p s . Each O n a n o th e r d a y i n t h is fiv e m o n t h s o r s ix m o n th s w e – w e t h e n w e n t t o B e t h l e h e m w h e r e w e m e t u p w i th c o m m e r c ia l fa r m e r s . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : So Mr Ncongwane if I may can you just e x p l a i n w h ic h y e a r a r e y o u r e f e r r in g h e r e t o n o w ? Is it … ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Fr o m e a r ly 2 0 11 . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : W e l l w e 20 – l ik e I s a i d w e a t t e n d e d w o r k s h o p s . S o in o n e o f th e w o r k s h o p s t h a t w e h a d w i t h t h e c o m m e r c i a l fa r m e r s f r o m c o u n tr y l a n e w h o a r e o n – w h o a r e d e a li n g w i t h d a ir y a s w e ll w e w e r e th e n t o l d o r a d v i s e d t h a t i f y o u h a v e c a t tl e a n d y o u h a v e a b o u t 2 5 c a tt l e a n d y o u w a n t to in v e s t w i t h t h o s e 2 5 c a t tl e y o u r s h a r e s a r e m u c h b e t te r t h a n i f y o u h a v e l e s s t h a n 2 5 l i f e f iv e w h i c h a r e n o t y ie ld i n g a n y - m u c h m o n e y. Page 46 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . S o w e r e y o u i n te n d i n g t o h a v e s h a r e s with those commercial farmers? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Correct. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . Then proceed. W h a t h a p p e n e d fr o m there? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : h a p p e n e d is w e th e n h a d a m e e t i n g . What W e s a t i n a m e e t in g w i t h th e f a r m e r s f r o m Q w a q w a . W e f o r m e d a c o o p e r a t iv e . W e t h e n n a m e d t h a t 10 c o o p e r a ti v e a s M P O - E m e r g i n g M ilk P r o d u c e r O r g a n is a ti o n . A f t e r w e h a v e f o u n d t h is c o o p e r a t iv e I t h e n w e n t b a c k h o m e . O n my a r r iv in g a t h o m e I m e t u p o r t h e r e w e r e m e n w h o w e r e a l s o i n t e r e s t e d i n th e v e r y s a m e d a ir y p r o j e c t . I th e n s a i d to t h e m w e n e e d a p l a c e w h e r e w e c a n w o r k o r h a v e o u r a c ti v i t ie s t h e r e . We need to go and request from the m u n i c i p a li t y a v e n u e o r a p l a c e w h e r e w e c a n w o r k fr o m . A f t e r w e h a v e a g r e e d w i th t h is I t h e n w r o t e a le t t e r. I t h e n t o o k i t t o t h e t o w n c o u n c il . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M r N c o n g w a n e w h ic h t o w n c o u n c i l n o w a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o ? Is i t Vr e d e o r Q w a q w a ? 20 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Vr e d e To w n C o u n c i l. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . P r o c e e d . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : h a n d e d o v e r th e fir s t l e t t e r th a t I h a v e d r a f t e d t o t h e M a y o r. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h o w a s t h e M a y o r a t th e ti m e ? Page 47 of 217 I then 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : It was ti ll M r J o h n M o t a u n g . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I s h e s ti ll a M a y o r t o t h i s d a y ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : Th a t is c o r r e c t . H e is s ti ll a M a y o r. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . P r o c e e d . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : I then w a i te d fo r a p e r io d o f a b o u t t w o m o n th s . I t h e n r e t u r n e d b a c k t o h i m to g e t f e e d b a c k . O n m y a r r iv a l th e r e I t h e n l e a r n t t h a t t h e f e e d b a c k t h a t I 10 w a s e x p e c t in g w a s n o t a v a i la b le y e t o r w a s n o t r e a d y y e t. I d r a f t e d a s e c o n d le t t e r. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I s t h i s s ti ll i n 2 0 11 ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : Th a t is correct. A f te r a m o n th I w e n t to c o ll e c t th e r e s p o n s e o f t h e s e c o n d le t t e r t h a t I h a d d r a f t e d . I t h e n d is c o v e r e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a r e p o r t b a c k o n m y r e q u e s t o r o f m y l e t te r. T h e r e s p o n s e t h a t I g o t o r th e r e p o r t back that I got my statement was not clear or understandable; because I h a d a n i n te r e s t o f t h i s – o f t h i s t h in g t o s u c c e e d I t h e n a p p r o a c h e d Mr Bheki Radebe. He is a Member of Parliament. 20 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Is t h a t t h e Fr e e S t a te P r o v in c i a l P a r l ia m e n t o r th e N a t io n a l P a r li a m e n t? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N a t io n a l . I t h e n s h o w e d h i m t h i s d r a f t o r t h is le t t e r t h a t I h a v e w r i t t e n . H e p e r u s e d i t o r r e a d it a n d h e s a id n o i t i s u n d e r s t a n d a b l e . I t is c l e a r a n d th e n I a s k e d h i m a s t o w h a t is i t t h a t m a y b e I s h o u ld c o r r e c t fr o m Page 48 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e s t a te m e n t a n d h is r e s p o n s e w a s I d o n o t k n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o h a d to ld y o u t h a t t h e y w e r e u n a b le t o u n d e r s t a n d y o u r s t a t e m e n t o r y o u r le t t e r ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : The M a y o r M r M o ta u n g . CHAIRPERSON: Wa s t h is a l e tt e r – a g a in le t u s ju s t g e t th a t c la r i fi c a t io n - o r w a s i t a s t a te m e n t ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : It was a l e tt e r t h a t I h a d d r a f t e d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u – h a d y o u w r i t te n t h e l e t te r i n a la n g u a g e t h a t M r M o ta u n g d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : It was in E n g li s h . Th e l e t t e r t h a t I h a v e d r a f te d i t w a s i n E n g lis h – th e s e c o n d le t t e r th a t I h a v e d r a f t e d . I t w a s i n E n g l i s h a n d t h e h e a d in g o f i t – i t w a s t h e R e q u is i ti o n o f th e L a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e l e t t e r t h a t y o u h a d w r i t te n t o M r M o ta u n g w a s in E n g l is h ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : Th a t is correct. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s i t Mr M o t a u n g w h o t o l d y o u th a t h e c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e le t t e r ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : In d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u a s k h i m o n th a t o c c a s i o n w h a t it i s t h a t h e c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d s o th a t y o u c o u l d e x p la in it t o h i m ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E Page 49 of 217 (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 U n f o r t u n a t e ly I d i d n o t a s k h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t . Yo u c a n p r o c e e d . Yo u – y o u w e r e a t a ti m e w h e n M r R a d e b e s a i d h e d i d n o t s e e a n y t h in g th a t a n y b o d y c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d in y o u r l e t te r a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : I then t o o k th is l e tt e r w e n t b a c k t o – w i t h t h i s l e tt e r t o M r R a l e b e n y a w h o is a n a d m i n is tr a t iv e o ff ic e r a t th e to w n h a l l . H e t h e n – h e t h e n s a i d t o m e a ft e r r e a d i n g – a f t e r r e a d in g t h is l e tt e r h e t h e n s a id h e i s – h e is o f th e o p i n i o n t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a s u p p o r t in g le t t e r f o r t h e p e o p l e w h o w il l 10 b e f u n d in g th is p r o j e c t . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . D i d – t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d fr o m t h e r e ? Did you get …? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I b a s ic a lly lo s t h o p e . I t h e n le f t i t lik e th a t . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : After t h a t – a f te r t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d th e n I h e a r d th a t t h e y w il l s t a r t u p a d a ir y p r o j e c t i n Vr e d e . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 20 Ye s . S o r r y. What I want to know these le t t e r s t h a t y o u w e r e s e n d in g t o t h e m u n ic ip a li ty a n d t o th e t o w n c o u n c i l w a s i t – w h e n e x a c t ly in 2 0 11 ? W a s i t b e f o r e N o v e m b e r o r a f t e r N o v e m b e r 2 0 11 ? I f y o u m a y r e m e m b e r. M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : It was in N o v e m b e r. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Thank you. Then the information that you Page 50 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 h a d a b o u t t h e o p e n in g o f t h e d a i r y i n Vr e d e w h e n w a s th is ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : It was at the beginning of the year 2012. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h e r e d i d y o u h e a r th is n e w s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I w o u l d h e a r a b o u t it b e c a u s e w e w e r e a t t e n d i n g m e e ti n g s i n t h e a r e a o r th e place where we stayed. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . T h e – t h e fu n d i n g o r t h e - t h e in f o r m a ti o n th a t th e y s a id y o u s h o u l d h a v e s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ts f o r 10 funding what – what was this funding? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : W e ll m y u n d e r s t a n d in g - it is j u s t m y o p in i o n o f w h a t h e s a id t o m e . My u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t h e m e a n t b y f u n d i n g t h a t I s h o u l d h a v e p e o p l e w h o w i ll b y c a t t le f o r m e b e c a u s e h i s s ta t e m e n t w a s i t is p o i n t l e s s to g iv e o r p r o v i d e l a n d t o a p e r s o n a n d y e t t h a t p e r s o n is – h a s n o p l a n – o r d o e s n o t h a v e a n y t h i n g t o d o o r w il l d o i n th e v e r y s a m e o r a n y a c ti v i ti e s t h a t h e w il l p e r f o r m in t h e la n d . S o r a th e r p r o v id e i t i f y o u k n o w t h a t t h is p e r s o n h a s c a t tl e a n d h e w i ll u s e th e l a n d . 20 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . S o r r y y o u s a id y o u a tt e n d e d m e e ti n g s . S o o t h e r th a n b e i n g a f a r m e r a t Vr e d e w e r e y o u i n v o lv e d w i t h a n y o f t h e f a r m e r s ’ o r g a n is a ti o n s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : ti m e I w a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f a n o r g a n is a t i o n c a l l e d N A F U . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t d o e s t h a t s t a n d f o r ? Page 51 of 217 At that 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N a t io n a l A g r ic u l t u r a l F a r m e r s U n i o n . I t is N A F U . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : N A F U a n d w h a t p o s i ti o n d id y o u h o ld t h e r e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I w a s a C h a ir p e r s o n fo r Vr e d e . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . M r N c o n g w a n e y o u t h e n i n t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t y o u f u r n is h e d u s y o u d e ta il t h e n u m b e r o f m e e ti n g s t h a t y o u a tt e n d e d t h a t w e r e c a ll e d b y t h e G o v e r n m e n t O ffi c i a l s i n Vr e d e around 2012. 10 S o m e o f i t o v e r l a p s w i th w h a t Mr D h l a m in i h a s a lr e a d y t e s ti fi e d a b o u t b u t I w a n t y o u to tr y a n d f o l lo w th e c h r o n o lo g y o f e v e n ts s t a r ti n g w i th t h e f ir s t m e e t i n g t h a t y o u a t t e n d e d . Ye s e v e n i f y o u … M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : CHAIRPERSON: S o r r y Ms B u t h e l e z i . I j u s t h a d a l o o k a t th e s t a te m e n t . I t d o e s a p p e a r t o m e t h a t m o s t o f t h e t h in g s t h a t h e s a y s in t h e s t a t e m e n t a r e t h e s a m e a s t h i n g s t h a t Mr D h l a m in i h a s t o ld m e a b o u t a n d I a m u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t h e w a s lis t e n i n g to M r D h l a m i n i ’s e v id e n c e . S o I th i n k w h a t w e m a y h a v e t o d o i s j u s t c o n fir m w h e th e r h e h e a r d a l l o f M r D h l a m in i ’s e v i d e n c e a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d c h e c k 20 w h e t h e r th e – th e r e is a n y t h in g in p a r ti c u l a r t h a t h e h e a r d Mr D h l a m i n i s a y t h a t is n o t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th h is r e c o l le c t i o n a n d th e n h e c a n t e l l u s t h a t a n d th e n a f te r t h a t y o u c a n l o o k a t e a c h m e e ti n g a n d ju s t s e e i f t h e r e is a n y th in g d i ff e r e n t t h a t h e s a y s th a t Mr D h l a m in i d i d n o t t e l l u s o r t h a t d o e s n o t – is n o t in a c c o r d a n c e w it h w h a t M r D h l a m in i t o l d u s . S o w e d o n o t h a v e to g o t h r o u g h th e w h o le th i n g a g a in . Page 52 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : U n d e r s ta n d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : e v i d e n c e o f Mr D h l a m in i . M r N c o n g w a n e y o u h a v e l is te n e d t o t h e I b e l i e v e y o u w e r e h e r e i n s i d e t h e h e a r in g v e n u e . Yo u h e a r d h i m d e t a i li n g t h e – th e n u m b e r o f m e e t in g s t h a t y o u a tt e n d e d a s … CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. L e t u s fi r s t c h e c k . Were you hear t h r o u g h o u t t h e t i m e y e s t e r d a y a n d to d a y w h e n M r D h la m i n i g a v e evidence? 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s I was present. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e l is t e n in g t o h is e v id e n c e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s I w a s l is te n in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w il l y o u b e a b le t o s a y i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e s a i d w h ic h d o e s n o t a c c o r d w it h y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n ? O k a y. I am s o r r y. I th i n k I n e e d t o p u t t h a t … I N T E R P R E T E R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Afresh. W h e n y o u w e r e lis t e n i n g w e r e y o u a b l e t o p ic k u p t h i n g s t h a t h e w a s s a y i n g t h a t d o e s n o t a c c o r d w i th y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n ? O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I – f r o m t h e fi r s t ( i n te r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: I a m c o n fu s i n g y o u M s I n te r p r e t e r. I know I am c o n fu s i n g y o u a n d M r N c o n g w a n e . O k a y. A t t h i s s ta g e I j u s t w a n t e d t o Page 53 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r h e w o u ld b e a b l e t o s a y y e s th e r e m a y b e o r t h e r e might not be. S h e – M s B u th e l e z i w il l a s k h e r a b o u t th e s p e c i f ic m e e ti n g s i f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e d i d n o t r e c a l l h a v i n g h a p p e n e d t h e w a y t h a t M r D h l a m in i s a i d . S o I j u s t w a n t e d to h a v e a n i d e a t h a t h e t h i n k s h e w il l b e a b le t o – t o i n d ic a te if h e is a s k e d . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : I can r e s p o n d to t h a t q u e s t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h e x c e ll e n t. M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : 10 There a r e ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . T h e n y o u m a y b e y o u c a n ta k e it fr o m t h e r e M s B u th e le z i . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u s o m u c h C h a ir. Mr Ncongwane t h e n c a n y o u j u s t h ig h li g h t t h o s e e v e n ts t h a t y o u r e c a ll t h a t w e r e n o t e i t h e r p l a c e d o n r e c o r d b y Mr D h l a m in i o r w h e r e y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h i n g s d i ff e r e n t ly. CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e – m a y b e – I a m s o r r y. Maybe you can go a c c o r d i n g t o fir s t m e e t in g , s e c o n d m e e ti n g . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: I f h e i s a b le t o a n d th e r e m a y b e t h i n g s w h e r e h e s a y s I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r t h e y h a p p e n e d a t t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g o r s e c o n d m e e t in g b u t le t h i m b e a b l e t o d e a l w i t h th e m i n te r m s o f fir s t m e e ti n g s e c o n d m e e t i n g a n d s o o n . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 54 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e w il l s ta r t fr o m t h e fi r s t m e e t in g . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : With r e g a r d t o t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g Yo u r W o r s h ip h e w a s a b le t o e x p l a i n e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d o r t h a t tr a n s p i r e d i n t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g . ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g y o u w is h t o a d d w it h r e g a r d s t o th e fir s t m e e ti n g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : There is n o t h i n g t o a d d . ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: 10 Ye s a n d th is fi r s t m e e ti n g a r e y o u in t h e p o s i ti o n to t e l l u s w h e n i t w a s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : It w a s – th e m e e ti n g w a s e a r ly 2 0 1 2 a n d m y a p o l o g i e s C h a ir, m a y I p l a c e th is o n r e c o r d , m o s t o f th e c o m m u n i ty m e m b e r s w h o w e r e i n v o l v e d o r b e n e fic i a r i e s in t h is p r o j e c t , w e r e e l d e r l y p e o p le . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON: I’ m s o r r y w a s th e r e s o m e th i n g y o u w a n t e d to s a y a b o u t t h e m b e i n g e l d e r l y p e o p l e o r y o u j u s t w a n t e d t o m a k e th a t p o i n t o n ly ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : 20 As I h a v e i n d i c a t e d t h a t m o s t o f th e b e n e f ic i a r ie s w e r e e l d e r l y p e o p l e a n d w e g r e w u p i n t h e fa r m s s o w h e n t h is p r o je c t w a s i n i t ia t e d w e d i d n o t k n o w t h a t i t w i ll e n d u p b e f o r e th e C o m m is s io n a n d a s a r e s u lt w e w e r e n o t k e e p i n g r e c o r d o f t h e a c tiv i ti e s o f th is p r o j e c t a n d w e d i d n o t e v e n n o m i n a te a c o m m i t t e e o f i n d iv id u a l s w h o w i ll k e e p r e c o r d o r r e c o r d e v e r y a c t iv i t y a r o u n d th is p r o j e c t . W h e n t h e c o m m i t t e e t h a t Mr Page 55 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D h l a m in i m a d e m e n t i o n o f in h is t e s ti m o n y w a s n o m in a t e d o r e le c te d , t h a t ’s w h e n w e h a d h o p e th a t t h e r e w il l b e r e c o r d o f e a c h a n d e v e r y a c ti v i ty t h a t m i g h t b e n e e d e d a r o u n d t h i s p r o j e c t t h a t t h e y w i ll k e e p , b a s ic a lly r e c o r d o f e v e r y t h in g . T h a t i s w h y o th e r t h i n g s l ik e d a t e s a n d y e a r s w e a r e u n a b le t o r e m e m b e r a s t o e x a c t ly w h e n d i d i t h a p p e n b u t t h e r e a r e o t h e r th in g s w h e r e w e s i t d o w n a n d w e tr y t o r e c o l l e c t o f w h e n w a s t h e f ir s t m e e t i n g a n d w h o w a s t h e r e o r w h o w a s h o s ti n g t h e m e e ti n g w e w o u l d th e n r e m e m b e r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y th a n k y o u . Ye s , y o u c a n c o n t i n u e i f y o u h a v e n o t y e t fi n i s h e d . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : So t h o s e w h o w e r e m o r e o ld e r th a n u s o r t h e e l d e r l y p e o p l e w il l b e a s s is t e d b y u s t h o s e w h o u s e d t o a t te n d m e e t in g a n d o p i n i o n s a n d s h a r e t h e o p i n i o n s w i t h t h e m . R e g a r d in g t h e d a te , m y a p o lo g ie s to y o u C h a ir i f w e d o n o t r e m e m b e r th e d a t e s , th e b a c k g r o u n d i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t I g a v e y o u is t o c l a r i fy th e is s u e o f th e d a t e s a n d t h e y e a r s t h a t e v e n ts t o o k p la c e b u t a s f o r e v e r y t h i n g th a t h e h a s s a i d Yo u r W o r s h i p , i t i s e x a c tl y a s h e h a s e x p l a i n e d i t M r D h l a m i n i , th e o n ly is s u e w il l b e th e d a t e s a n d t h e y e a r. 20 Th e r e w a s a m is u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e r e A l ta M e y e r w a s i n t e r i o r c o o r d i n a to r b u t h e m a d e a m is t a k e a r o u n d h e r p o s i t io n , s h e w a s w o r k in g a t t h e A g r ic u l t u r e D e p a r t m e n t , s h e w a s t h e c o l le a g u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e w a s a c o o r d i n a t o r th e r e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : In d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . O k a y s h e w i ll n o w le a d y o u o n – o n t h e v a r i o u s m e e t i n g s b u t s h e w il l a s k y o u w h e t h e r t h e r e ’s a n y t h in g e ls e Page 56 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 y o u w a n t e d t o s a y a b o u t t h e fir s t m e e ti n g a n d w h e n s h e ’s d o n e th e n s h e ’ ll g o t o t h e n e x t m e e ti n g . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I understand. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u M r N c o n g w a n e , o n t h e fi r s t m e e ti n g i s t h e r e a n y t h in g t h a t y o u w o u l d l i k e t o a d d o th e r t h a n w h a t M r D h l a m in i h a s t o l d th e C o m m i s s io n ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : N o . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u a n d t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g ? 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Th e s e c o n d m e e ti n g I w a s n o t – I w a s n o t in a tt e n d a n c e b u t m o s t o f w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d th e r e , I g o t i t f r o m M r D h l a m i n i . A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w h a t h e r e l a y e d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n is e v e r y t h i n g t h a t h e r e p o r t e d to y o u a b o u t t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g a t t h e ti m e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : In d e e d . A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u , s in c e y o u ’r e n o t t h e r e t h e n l e t ’s m o v e t o th e t h ir d m e e ti n g . I s th e r e a n y t h in g th a t y o u ’ d l ik e to c o r r e c t o r t o a d d w it h r e g a r d to t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g , th is is t h e m e e ti n g w h e r e , 20 a c c o r d i n g to y o u r s t a t e m e n t w h e r e y o u r I D d o c u m e n ts w e r e a s k e d f o r b y M s A l t a M e y e r. M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : It is e x a c tl y li k e M r D h l a m i n i h a s e x p l a i n e d i t Yo u r W o r s h ip – A l t a , I m e a n C h a ir, A l ta M e y e r c a m e a n d r e q u e s t e d t h e ID d o c u m e n ts a n d th e y w e r e h a n d e d o v e r a n d e v e r y th i n g w a s j u s t h a p p e n i n g in a h u r r y. Page 57 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r, r o u g h l y w h e n i t w a s , i t ’s n o t o n y o u r s t a te m e n t b u t i f y o u c o u l d – e v e n i f i t’s a y e a r o r a m o n th o f th a t y e a r, o r w a s i t t h e b e g i n n in g o f t h e y e a r o r t o w a r d s t h e end of the year? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : If I’m n o t m is t a k e n i t w a s r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g – in t h e y e a r 2 0 1 2 t h a t is w h e n th is p r o j e c t w a s in i ti a te d . A D V ZI N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D id y o u s a y a t t h e b e g i n n in g o f th e p r o je c t, o r th e b e g i n n i n g o f th e y e a r ? 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : It w a s t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e y e a r a n d r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n in g o f th e p r o j e c t o r w h e n th e p r o j e c t w a s in i ti a te d . ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Ye s a n d w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g w it h r e g a r d s t o th e p r o j e c t a t t h a t s t a g e , d o y o u k n o w i f t h e r e w a s a n y c o n s tr u c ti o n t h a t w a s s ta r t e d ? MR MESHACK M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : P e r s o n a l ly, Yo u r W o r s h ip , i f I s a y I d i d s e e t h e c o n s tr u c t io n I w o u l d b e ly i n g b u t I h e a r d t h a t t h e r e w a s a c o n s tr u c t io n w h ic h h a s s t a r t e d r e g a r d s t o w a r d s t h i s p r o je c t , b u t p e r s o n a ll y I d i d n o t s e e t h a t . 20 A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I: committee that Mr A n d y o u a ls o m e n ti o n t h e c o m m i t t e e , th e Mahlaba spoke about on paragraph 1 3 … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr D h l a m in i . A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o r r y Mr D h l a m i n i , w h e n y o u d e a l w i t h th e s e c o n d m e e t in g – w i t h t h e t h ir d m e e t i n g w a s th is t h e d a y i n w h ic h t h is Page 58 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 committee was elected? I N T E R P R E T E R : O k a y I s e e th e w i tn e s s i s ta k i n g o u t a p ie c e o f p a p e r I’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r h e ’s m a k i n g r e fe r e n c e t o t h a t b u t h e s a y s , y e s i n t h a t t h ir d m e e t in g t h e c o m m i t t e e w a s s e l e c t e d o r e le c te d a n d i t w a s s e l e c t e d b y A l t a M e y e r h e r s e l f i n t h e t h i r d m e e ti n g . A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : If I r e m e m b e r t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r D h l a m in i w a s t h a t y o u n o m i n a te d th e p e o p l e th a t w e r e i n th e c o m m i t t e e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : As p e o p l e w h o h a d e x p e r t is e o r s k i lls in t h e fa r mi n g w e a s s is t e d in t h e 10 e l e c ti o n o f t h is c o m m i t t e e t o g e t h e r w i t h M s Al t a M e y e r. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll le t ’s g e t t h a t c le a r b e c a u s e e a r li e r o n I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y M r A l ta M e y e r s e le c t e d t h a t c o m m i t t e e , d i d I h e a r y o u c o r r e c tl y ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : Alta M e y e r is th e o n e w h o c o l le c te d th e ID ’s fr o m u s , A l t a M e y e r i s t h e o n e who elected the committee. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t o – i t’s th e s e c o n d ti m e y o u s a y s h e e l e c t e d o r s e l e c t e d th e c o m m i t t e e b u t y o u h a v e a ls o s a id y o u a r e th e p e o p l e w h o e l e c t e d t h e m b u t I th i n k y o u s a i d t o g e t h e r w i t h h e r, le t ’s t r y a n d g e t th is 20 c le a r. D id M s A l t a M e y e r s a y t o y o u a t t h a t m e e ti n g , a s b e n e fic i a r i e s , you people need to elect a committee or did that come from you, the b e n e fic i a r i e s , th a t th e r e s h o u ld b e a c o m m i t te e th a t m u s t b e e l e c t e d ? L e t m e r e p e a t , d i d M s A l ta M e y e r s a y t o y o u , th a t y o u a s t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s s h o u l d e le c t a c o m m i t t e e o r w a s i t y o u w h o c a m e u p w i t h t h e id e a t h a t a c o m m i t t e e s h o u l d b e e l e c t e d ? Page 59 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : She, A l ta M e y e r, c a m e t o e l e c t t h e c o m m i t t e e s h e i s t h e o n e w h o s e l e c te d the committee. CHAIRPESON: D id s h e , in t h a t m e e t in g te ll y o u t h e n a m e s o f t h e p e o p l e w h o s h o u ld b e m e m b e r s o f t h a t c o m m i t t e e w i t h o u t y o u , t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s , h a v i n g m a d e th a t d e c is io n y o u r s e lv e s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : She s a i d s h e c a m e fo r t h e e l e c ti o n o f th e c o m m i t t e e w i th o u r a s s i s ta n c e , t h e r e f o r e w e s h o u l d n o m in a te t h e n a m e s o r p i c k – j a n o m i n a t e t h e 10 p e o p l e o r t h e n a m e s o f th e p e o p l e t h a t w e w a n t t o b e in t h e c o m m i t t e e . S o s h e o n l y c a m e fo r t h e n a m e s o f th e p e o p l e th a t s h o u ld b e i n th e committee. CHAIRPERSON: D i d s h e s a y y o u m u s t d e c id e w h o m u s t b e i n t h e c o m m i t t e e a n d s h e w o u ld t a k e t h o s e n a m e s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is c o r r e c t , w e n o m i n a t e d th e n a m e s o f t h e th r e e p e o p l e w h o w e r e to b e a p a r t o f t h e c o m m i t t e e a n d w e a ls o g a v e th e m th e p o s i ti o n s t h e r e , i t w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , s e c r e t a r y a n d tr e a s u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y M s In t e r p r e te r y o u m a y j u s t h a v e to t h in k a b o u t 20 t h e c o r r e c t w o r d w h e n y o u n o m in a te i t m e a n s th a t s o m e b o d y e l s e w il l s t il l d e c id e i f y o u s e l e c t o r e le c t y o u d e c i d e . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : We selected them. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d d i d M s M e y e r a c c e p t th e n a m e s t h a t y o u , t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s , s e l e c t e d ? Page 60 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e n o w c la r i fi e d , i t s e e ms t o m e t h a t y o u s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e s a i d t h a t M s M e y e r e l e c t e d o r s e l e c t e d t h e p e o p le b e c a u s e y o u a r e t h e p e o p l e w h o d e c id e d o n th e t h r e e p e o p l e t o fo r m the committee. M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h a t is correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e d i ff e r e n c e n o w ? 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : Ye s I do. CHAIRPERSON: A n d M s M e y e r s i m p ly t o o k t h e n a m e s t h a t y o u g a v e her? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir f o r th e c la r i fic a t io n a n d w e n o w k n o w t h a t M r J u n e D a v id M a h la b a w a s th e C h a ir, w h o w a s th e secretary? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : L i n d i w e 20 Masiteng. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h o d i d y o u e le c t a s a tr e a s u r e r ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : James N g q o u s i n i. ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: I w il l s p e ll it f o r t h e r e c o r d C h a ir, i t ’s N g q o s in i ( n a m e s p e l t) . Page 61 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t ’s p r o c e e d . ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Thank you and what was your u n d e r s t a n d in g f o r t h e s e l e c t i o n o f t h i s c o m m i t t e e , w h a t w a s it g o in g t o do for you guys? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : They w e r e g o i n g t o b e o u r r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s w h e n e v e r t h e r e ’s m e e t in g s w it h a g r ic u lt u r a l – a g r i c u l tu r e o ff ic i a ls t h e y a r e o u r e y e s a n d e a r s o n a n y a c ti v i ti e s a r o u n d th is p r o j e c t a n d c o m e b a c k a n d r e p o r t t o u s . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d d i d t h a t h a p p e n ? 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I t d id not even happen, even once. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u , i n t h e s a m e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u – I ’ m s o r r y d id y o u c o n t in u e t o s e e m e m b e r s o f t h is c o m m i t t e e o v e r ti m e a n d i f y o u d i d , d id y o u n o t a s k t h e m , w h a t is h a p p e n i n g y o u ’r e n o t r e p o r ti n g b a c k t o u s , w h y ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : May I p l a c e i n o n r e c o r d C h a ir t h a t L in d iw e M a s i te n g , t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , s h e h a d a b u s in e s s , s h e w a s s e ll in g fo o d , s o w e w o u ld m e e t h e r o n t h a t le v e l w h e n w e ’r e i n t e r a c ti n g i n h e r b u s i n e s s s h e w i ll s a y, th e r e a r e 20 t h i n g s t o te ll y o u , b u t w e ’l l s i t w i t h Al t a a n d t h e r e a r e th i n g s w e m u s t t e ll y o u b u t t h e r e ’s n o t ti m e h e r e t o s i t d o w n a n d t e ll y o u a b o u t t h o s e things. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t a b o u t t h e o t h e r m e m b e r s o f t h e c o m m i t te e , d i d you see them from time to time and ask them, why are you people not r e p o r t in g b a c k to u s , w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g ? Page 62 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 MR MESHACK M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : U n f o r t u n a t e ly t h e o n ly m e m b e r o f th e c o m m i t te e I w o u ld s e e o r i n t e r a c t w i t h i t ’s L i n d i w e M a s i t e n g . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u M r N c o n g w a n e s o t h e t w o o th e r members, Mr Mahlaba and Mr Ngqousini were they locals, were they fr o m Vr e d e or were they fr o m the o th e r p a r ts of Mpumelela M u n i c i p a li t y ? I N T E R P R E T E R : W h a t ’s th e o t h e r p l a c e ? 10 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O r w e r e th e y fr o m e i t h e r W a r d e n o r M e m e l? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : They a r e a ls o fr o m Vr e d e . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d i d – i f t h e y w e r e a ls o s ta y i n g w it h in Vr e d e w h y d i d n ’ t t h e l e a d e r s h ip o f t h e Vr e d e c h a p te r o f t h e A fr ic a n F a r m e r s A s s o c ia t io n g o to o n e o r b o th o f t h e a n d c o n fr o n t t h e m a n d s a y, w h y a r e y o u p e o p l e n o t c o m i n g b a c k to r e p o r t t o u s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : It w a s n o t e a s y f o r t h e m t o c o m e t o u s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e b a s ic a lly g iv i n g u s 20 – r u n n in g a w a y fr o m u s s o i t w a s n o t e a s y to h a v e t h i s c o n v e r s a ti o n with them. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o t h e y w e r e a v o i d in g y o u i n o t h e r w o r d s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s . ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Th a n k y o u a n d i n t h e s a m e p a r a g r a p h 1 3 Page 63 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 y o u m e n ti o n t h a t y o u – w h e n y o u d id n o t g e t a n y r e p o r ts y o u b e c a m e c o n c e r n e d a n d y o u r e p o r t e d – o r y o u t o o k y o u r c o n c e r n s t o th e m e d i a , w h e n w a s t h e f ir s t ti m e y o u r e p o r t e d t h i s m a t t e r t o t h e m e d i a ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ar o u n d 2013. A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I: And what was happening, what was your m a in c o n c e r n w h e n y o u r a i s e d th is i s s u e w it h th e m e d i a i n 2 0 1 3 ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Th e p e r s o n w h o b r o u g h t t h e m e d ia to u s i t w a s D r R a d e b e fr o m D A h e ’s th e 10 o n e w h o c a m e w i t h M a i l & G u a r d ia n . C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m e m b e r M s B u t h e l e z i w e j u s t w a n t t o s e e w h a t i t is t h a t h e w a n ts t o te ll u s t h a t’s d i ff e r e n t fr o m w h a t Mr D h l a m in i t o l d u s , I m e a n a l o t o f t h e s e t h i n g s a r e u n l ik e ly t o b e c o n tr o v e r s i a l . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u , I ’l l p r o c e e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s o j u s t f o c u s o n e s t a b lis h i n g fr o m h i m th o s e t h in g s t h a t h e w a n t s t o te ll m e w h ic h M r D h l a m i n i m i g h t n o t h a v e c o v e r e d o r those things th a t Mr Dhlamini covered but he has a d i ffe r e n t r e c o l l e c ti o n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d , o th e r w i s e I d o n ’ t w a n t u s to g o t h r o u g h t h e s a m e t h i n g i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e i t ’s u n lik e ly to b e d is p u t e d . 20 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. O th e r t h a n w h a t w e h a v e a lr e a d y to l d u s , w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g a n d t h e e l e c ti o n o f b e n e fic i a r i e s w h a t e ls e w o u l d y o u li k e t o t e l l u s , w a s n ’ t to l d b y M r D h l a m in i w h e n h e g a v e h is e v id e n c e e a r li e r o n ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : r e m e m b e r t h e v is it b y D A th e y e a r w a s … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . Page 64 of 217 I 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d , s h e ’s a s k in g y o u , o n ly i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : O k a y I w a n t e d t o t e ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t t h e o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t I k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o , n o t h e q u e s t i o n w a s w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s – t h e r e ’s a n y th in g t h a t M r D h l a m i n i d i d n o t c o v e r in r e l a ti o n to t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g o r t h a t h e c o v e r e d b u t y o u h a v e a d i ff e r e n t r e c o ll e c t io n i n r e g a r d t o t h e t h ir d m e e t i n g , o n c e y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h th a t s h e w i ll m o v e o n t o s o m e th i n g e l s e . 10 MR MESHACK M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E (through i nt e r p r e t e r ) : E v e r y th i n g is c o v e r e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I t h in k m o v e o n to t h e f o u r th m e e ti n g . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s l e t ’s m o v e t o th e fo u r t h m e e t in g . Ye s t h is i s w h e n – t h e m e e ti n g th a t w a s a ls o a t te n d e d b y M s A l ta M e y e r, is t h e r e a n y th i n g t h a t y o u w o u ld lik e t o a d d f r o m w h a t M r D h l a m in i t o ld u s a lr e a d y ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Th e f o u r t h m e e ti n g is a b o u t t h e F D C , is n ’t i t? A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . 20 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I n th a t m e e ti n g I w a s n o t p r e s e n t , I w a s i n D u r b a n . ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: S o w h a t is c o n ta in e d i n t h is s t a t e m e n t i t ’s w h a t w a s r e p o r te d t o y o u b y Mr D h l a m i n i , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : correct. Page 65 of 217 Ye s 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: Okay th e n l e t’s m o v e t o th e fi f t h m e e ti n g , d i d you a tt e n d t h e f i ft h m e e ti n g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : A t t h e ti m e w h e n M r A c e M a g a s h u l e w a s i n t h e m e e t in g ? A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C O N G WA N E ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : N o t h i n g m u c h w a s s a i d – n o t h in g m u c h w a s b r o u g h t o r s a i d b y M r M a g a s h u l e o n t h a t d a y, i t is e x a c tl y li k e w h a t M r D h la m i n i h a s e x p la in e d i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : T h o u g h I w a s a m o n g s t t h e g r o u p w h i c h w a s t h e r e o n t h e d a y o f t h e m e e ti n g w i t h M r M a g a s h u l e b u t I a m o n e o f th e p e o p l e w h o r e m a in e d b e h i n d b e c a u s e o f t h e tr a n s p o r t . S o I d i d n o t g o t o t h is d a ir y i ts e l f – th e project – where the project was. CHAIRPERSON: There was not enough transport? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : There w a s n o t e n o u g h tr a n s p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e n y o u d e a l w i t h o t h e r 20 m e e ti n g s t h a t f o ll o w e d . Th e f ir s t o n e b e i n g th e m e e t in g i t w a s w i t h M E C M a m i k i Q a b a t h e . Is t h e r e a n y th i n g y o u w i s h t o a d d ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : No. T h a t is fi n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: A n d t h e n t h e n e x t m e e t in g th a t y o u d e a l Page 66 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 w i t h is a m e e t i n g w i t h Mr – y o u s a y i n g i t is M o d i b a b u t C h a ir t h e c o r r e c t s u r n a m e i t i s M a d ib a . It is a n o ffic i a l fr o m th e D e p a r t m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . L e t u s a s k h i m t h is q u e s ti o n . Yo u – y o u h a v e c o n fir m e d th a t y o u l is te n e d t o M r D h l a m i n i ’s e v i d e n c e y o u remember that? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : Ye s I did. CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e a r e o t h e r m e e ti n g s th a t Mr D h l a m i n i s p o k e a b o u t. D id y o u – i s th e r e a n y t h in g t h a t h e s a i d a b o u t th o s e m e e ti n g s if 10 y o u d i d a t t e n d t h e m t h a t d o e s n o t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n o r t h a t h e d i d n o t c o v e r t h a t y o u w is h t o c o v e r ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : What I c a n t a lk a b o u t Yo u r W o r s h i p i t is th e m e e ti n g w i t h M r M a d ib a . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e c o r r e c t s p e lli n g ? A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t is M a d i b a i t i s n o t M o – y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright. Th a n k y o u te ll u s a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : Okay w h a t h a p p e n e d is t o t a lk a b o u t t h e m e e t in g w i t h Mr M a d ib a . T h e r e w a s 20 a v e n u e w h e r e t h e m e e ti n g w a s h e l d b u t h e d e l a y e d c o m i n g to th e v e n u e w h e r e t h e m e e ti n g w a s to t a k e p la c e . H e s ta r te d a t th e M a y o r ’s o ffic e in t h e To w n H a ll f o r p r iv a te m e e t in g w h ic h la s t e d a b o u t o n e a n d a h a l f h o u r s . A n d t h e n a f t e r th a t th e y t h e n a l l c a m e t o g e t h e r. I t w a s M r M a d i b a , th e M a y o r, M r K o lb e n e a n d t h e o t h e r o ff ic ia ls w e r e th e r e . T h e m e e ti n g w a s c a ll e d o r h o s t e d b y u s . M y s e l f a n d Mr D h la m i n i s o w e Page 67 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 c a l l e d h i m i n t o a m e e ti n g . O n h i s a r r i v a l a t t h e v e n u e h e th e n to o k o v e r t h e m e e ti n g a s i f h e w a s th e o n e w h o c a ll e d t h e m e e t i n g . T h a t d i d not sit well with us. Th e n th e r e w a s n o w – i t w a s n o w t i m e fo r q u e s t io n s th e n M r D h l a m in i a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n , w h o c a ll e d t h e m e e ti n g ? Is i t y o u w h o c a l le d th e m e e t i n g o r is it u s w h o c a l le d th e m e e ti n g ? Because we had an agenda. W e h a d q u e s ti o n s t h a t w e w a n t e d t o p u t i n th a t m e e t i n g . A f te r t h a t q u e s t io n w a s a s k e d t h e y t h e n a d m i t t e d t o s a y, o k a y l e t u s p r o c e e d w it h t h e m e e t in g i n t h e w a y t h a t you have planned it or according to your agenda. It was at that stage 10 u n f o r t u n a t e ly w h e n M r D h l a m i n i th e n w a l k e d a w a y fr o m th e m e e ti n g . W e t h e n a s k e d t h e q u e s t io n , a r e w e s ti ll b e n e fic i a r i e s t o t h is p r o j e c t a n d i f i n d e e d w e a r e s t il l t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s th e n I p e r s o n a lly h a v e a q u e s t io n ? E v e n i f I a m b e i n g t o ld t h a t y o u a r e n o l o n g e r b e n e f ic i a r ie s t o t h is p r o j e c t I s ti ll h a v e a q u e s t i o n to a s k . Th e n I t h e n r e q u e s t e d M r M a d i b a b e c a u s e h e is t h e o n e t h a t w e h a v e i n v i t e d in t o t h e m e e t in g t h a t p l e a s e c o n s i d e r t h a t t h e r e is e l d e r ly p e o p l e i n th is m e e ti n g . T h e n w e r e q u e s t e d h i m n o t to b e p o l it ic a l w h e n r e s p o n d i n g t o i s s u e s . J u s t r e s p o n d c le a r ly w i th o u t b e i n g p o l i tic a l a b o u t t h e is s u e s th a t w e w a n t to get clarity on. 20 A n d t h e n o n e o f t h e c o m m u n it y m e m b e r s a s k e d a q u e s t io n fr o m Vr e d e a s k e d a q u e s ti o n a s t o w h e t h e r is t h is p r o j e c t a g o v e r n m e n t p r o j e c t o r is it a c o m m u n i ty p r o j e c t ? H is r e s p o n s e w a s n o it is a g o v e r n m e n t p r o j e c t . I N T E R P R E T E R : I [i n d i s t i n c t ] c l a r it y Yo u r W o r s h i p I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h is . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : Page 68 of 217 And 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e n t h e n e x t q u e s t io n a f te r t h e q u e s t i o n w h i c h w a s a s k e d is o n e p e r s o n f r o m o r c o m m u n i ty m e m b e r fr o m M e m e l a s k e d a q u e s ti o n i f a r e w e s ti ll b e n e fic i a r i e s ? O r e a c h ti m e w h e n t h e r e is a C h a ir p e r s o n is c o m i n g t o a tt e n d – C h i e f D ir e c t o r s a t te n d i n g a m e e ti n g w e w il l h a v e t o r e r e g is t e r o u r n a m e s o r r e g is t e r o u r n a m e s e a c h ti m e t h a t t h e y c o m e o r a r e w e b e n e fi c i a r ie s t o w a r d s t h is p r o j e c t ? O r e a c h ti m e w h e n n e w p e o p l e c o m e t o a m e e t in g – C h ie f D ir e c to r s c o m e t o a m e e ti n g w e h a v e t o r e r e g i s t e r a s b e n e fic i a r i e s . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Mr N c o n g w a n e p le a s e m a k e u s u n d e r s t a n d 10 w h a t M r M a d ib a s a i d t o y o u o n t h a t m e e ti n g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : He e x p l a i n e d a s t o w h a t is a b e n e f ic i a r y. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : H e e v e n e x p l a i n e d a s t o t h e f a c t t h a t h e w a s s ti ll n e w i n th is p o s i ti o n o f b e i n g a C h i e f D ir e c to r s o h e is n o t f a m il ia r w i t h th e a c ti v i ti e s a r o u n d t h a t project. Th o s e a r e t h e o n l y t w o is s u e s h e t o u c h e d o n n o t a n y o t h e r matters. ADV 20 Z IN H L E BUTHELEZI: So the is s u e of th e b e n e fic ia r i e s r e r e g is t e r i n g w h e n a n e w C h i e f D ir e c t o r is a p p o i n te d w h e r e d id t h a t c o m e fr o m ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : It is b e c a u s e o f w h a t h e s a id M r M a d i b a h i m s e l f t h a t h e w a s n e w i n t h e p o s i ti o n s o h e d i d n o t – h e w a s n o t fa m i l ia r w i th t h e a c tiv i ti e s a r o u n d t h a t p r o j e c t h e n c e t h a t q u e s ti o n c a m e u p . Page 69 of 217 H e e v e n s a i d th a t t h e r e 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 s h o u l d b e a s c r e e n i n g – s c r e e n in g o f t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s t o b e d o n e lik e is t h e r e – a r e t h e r e a n y e l d e r ly p e o p l e in – a m o n g s t th e b e n e fi c i a r i e s a r e t h o s e – th a t h a v e c a s e s ? A n d i f t h e r e a r e t h o s e w h o a r e e m p lo y e d – employed somewhere else. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w h a t e ls e t r a n s p i r e d d u r i n g t h a t m e e ti n g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : Not fr o m M r M a d i b a t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g e ls e t h a t h a p p e n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u o r a n y b o d y a m o n g t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s a s k h i m 10 w h y h e n e e d e d b e n e fi c i a r i e s t o b e s c r e e n e d a n d w h y i t w a s r e l e v a n t w h e t h e r b e n e fic i a r i e s w e r e e ld e r ly p e o p le a n d w h e t h e r s o m e o f t h e m w e r e e m p l o y e d e ls e w h e r e . D i d y o u a s k h i m w h a t w a s t h e r e le v a n c e o f t h o s e f a c to r s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : My q u e s t io n w a s w h e n s h o u ld t h is s c r e e n i n g s h o u l d h a v e t a k e n p la c e o r h a s ta k e n – j a s h o u ld h a v e t a k e n p l a c e b e c a u s e a lr e a d y a t t h a t t i m e t h e d a ir y w a s r u n n i n g o r a lr e a d y f u n c ti o n i n g s o I w o n d e r i f I g e t it r ig h t Yo u r W o r s h i p s o c a n I j u s t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t h i n k h e s a i d t h e d a ir y h a d b e e n r u n n in g f o r 20 three years. M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : Three years. C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y th a t Mr N c o n g w a n e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : said so. Page 70 of 217 Ye s I 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s t h e a n s w e r th a t y o u w e r e g iv e n ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : N o t h i n g f u r th e r w a s s a i d a n d t h e r e w a s n o t r e s p o n s e – n o t h i n g fu r t h e r w a s s a i d a ft e r t h a t a n d M r M a d i b a w a s f ir s t t o a t t e n d th a t m e e t i n g w e c a l le d . I t is n o t l ik e h e c a m e th e r e v o l u n t a r ily i n t o a m e e t in g w e h a d s u m m o n e d h i m t o a t te n d o r c a ll e d h i m t o a t t e n d th e m e e ti n g . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll w e w i ll g o – w e w i ll g o b a c k t o w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d a t t h e m e e t in g a n d h o w t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d . B u t l e t m e f in d o u t . W h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e f o r y o u c a l li n g h i m t o th e m e e ti n g ? 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : We – w e h a d c o n c e r n s l ik e ti m e – t h e c o n c e r n w a s th e t i m e th a t h a s l a p s e d o f t h e FD C h a v i n g c o n s u l te d o r c o m e to u s – v i s i ti n g u s o r c o m i n g b a c k to us. C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y t h a t y o u r c o n c e r n w a s t h e ti m e t h a t h a d la p s e d s in c e th e F D C h a d ta k e n o v e r b u t w i t h o u t t h e m h a v in g c o n s u lt e d with you? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : They p r o m is e d t o c o m e b a c k to t h o s e w h o w e r e i n t h e m e e t in g t w o w e e k s – in t w o w e e k s ’ ti m e a n d t h e y d id n o t r e t u r n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: And about how much time had lapsed by the time you c a l l e d M r M a d i b a t o c o m e to t h e m e e ti n g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : Q u i te a w h il e Yo u r W o r s h i p – a y e a r I a m a s s u m i n g i t is a y e a r b e c a u s e t h e s e m e e ti n g s w e r e n o t s i t ti n g c o n s t a n t ly a f t e r o n e – e a c h – o r a f t e r e a c h m e e ti n g . S o it w a s a l m o s t a y e a r o r a y e a r. Page 71 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: Or more than a year? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : C o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : A n o t h e r p r o b le m t h a t – o r c o n c e r n th a t w e h a v e w a s a b o u t th e p e o p l e w h o t o o k o u r I D ’s w e d id n o t k n o w w h e r e w e r e t h e y g o i n g t o u s e o u r ID ’s o r w h a t e x a c tl y w e r e th e y g o i n g to d o w i th o u r ID ’s . A n d – b e c a u s e w e a r e n o t b e n e fi ti n g a n y th in g fr o m t h a t a n d t h e c o n c e r n w a s w h a t i f t h e r e a f te r w e h a v e a p r o b le m w i th S A R S s in c e t h e y to o k o u r I D ’s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w it h th e S o u th A fr ic a n R e v e n u e S e r v ic e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : C o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. S o y o u w a n t e d M r M a d ib a t o c o m e a n d e x p l a i n o r g iv e y o u a n s w e r s to t h e s e q u e s t io n s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : C o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u a s k th e s e q u e s t i o n s ? MR MESHACK M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [through I nt e r p r e t e r ] : R e g a r d i n g th e c o n c e r n th a t w e h a v e w i t h S o u th A f r ic a n R e v e n u e S e r v ic e n o . W e o n ly a s k e d i f – a r e w e s t il l b e n e fic i a r i e s to th is p r o j e c t or not? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d w h a t e ls e w a s d is c u s s e d a t t h e m e e t i n g y o u h a v e n o t c o v e r e d y e t a n d h o w d id t h e m e e t in g e n d ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : N o t h i n g m u c h w a s d is c u s s e d a ft e r th a t . W h a t h e s u g g e s t e d t h a t s in c e h e w a s n e w i n h is p o s i ti o n r a t h e r w e r e r e g is t e r a s b e n e fi c i a r i e s a n d t h e n w e h a v e t h e n e x t – t h e m e e t in g b e p o s tp o n e d u n t il D e c e m b e r. Page 72 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: D id you agree to r e r e g is t e r as b e n e fic i a r i e s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : It was a t th a t s ta g e w h e n t h i s p e r s o n o r c o m m u n i ty m e m b e r fr o m M e m e l a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n . Is i t g o in g t o b e a p o s i ti o n w h e r e – a s i t u a t io n w h e r e w h e n t h e r e i s a n e w C h ie f D ir e c t o r w e w il l h a v e to r e r e g is t e r a s b e n e fic i a r i e s o r w h a t is g o i n g t o b e t h e p o s i ti o n ? ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Ye s b u t w a s t h e is s u e r e s o l v e d o r t h e m e e ti n g w a s p o s tp o n e d w i t h o u t h a v i n g r e s o lv e d th e i s s u e ? 10 MR MESHACK M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [through I nt e r p r e t e r ] : R e s o lv in g th is q u e s t i o n o r d is s o lv in g th e m e e t in g ? ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: Ye s of being b e n e f ic ia r i e s and r e r e g is t e r i n g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : There w a s n o r e s p o n s e t o w a r d s th a t q u e s ti o n . W h a t w a s s a i d is t h a t w e w i ll have further discussion when we meet again. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Did another m e e ti n g take place b e tw e e n the b e n e fic i a r i e s a s a n – a n d Mr M a d ib a ? 20 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : There w a s – n o t i n t h a t y e a r u n t il th e f o l l o w i n g i n M a r c h w e t h e n a p p r o a c h A g r ic u l t u r e o r w e w e n t t o A g r ic u l t u r e t o f in d o u t a s t o w h a t is h a p p e n in g . S o w e w e n t p e r s o n a l ly t h e r e t o f in d o u t w h a t is h a p p e n i n g . T h a t w a s t h e la s t ti m e . We did not get any response on – when we w e n t t h e r e to fi n d o u t a s to w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g i n M a r c h . N o r e s p o n s e Page 73 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h a t w e g o t a n d t h a t w a s th e l a s t ti m e w e s a w M r M a d i b a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . Yo u s a i d – a t t h a t s t a g e i t h a s b e e n t h r e e y e a r s s in c e t h e d a ir y s ta r t e d o p e r a t in g . S h o u l d I a s s u m e t h a t i t was around 2016? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : s o b e c a u s e t h e F D C w a s th e r e in 2 0 1 5 . I hope I th i n k s o b u t t h e w o r d s h e u s e s I h o p e s o b e c a u s e F D C w a s a lr e a d y i n e x is t e n c e b y 2 0 1 5 . ADV MUZI SIKHAKHANE: 10 Okay thank you. T h e n t h e r e is a n o t h e r m e e ti n g th a t y o u m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o t h a t w a s a tt e n d e d b y D o c t o r M a s i t e n g . I t is i n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t . Yo u a r e s a y in g i t is 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 ? I b e l i e v e y o u w a n t e d t o m a k e a c o r r e c ti o n t h e r e . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : I wish t o c o r r e c t t h e d a te t h a t d a t e is n o t c o r r e c t . Th e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 4 d a t e i s n o t correct. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h a t c o u l d b e y o u r e s ti m a t e th e r e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : I think it w a s s o m e w h e r e i n 2 0 1 7 . Wa i t, w a it . N o t 2 0 1 7 n o , n o , i t is n o t 2 0 1 7 . I th in k i t w a s s o m e w h e r e i n 2 0 1 8 . 20 A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o i t is v e r y r e c e n t? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : C o r r e c t it is j u s t r e c e n t . A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . W e u n d e r s t a n d th a t y o u a r e n o t c o m m i t t in g t o t i m e s a s y o u h a v e e x p la i n e d e a r l i e r th a t y o u w e r e n o t k e e p i n g r e c o r d s . B u t I a m i n te r e s t e d o f w h e t h e r M r – d i d Mr D h l a m i n i Page 74 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 c o v e r e v e r y th in g t h a t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g t h i s m e e ti n g w i t h D o c to r Masiteng? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : Ye s h e e x p l a i n e d e v e r y t h in g . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D id y o u a t t e n d t h is m e e ti n g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : Ye s I was. ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: A n d t h e n y o u t h e n d e a l w it h t h e m e e ti n g t h a t w a s w i th t h e D A . D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n th is m e e ti n g w a s ? 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : Th e fir s t m e e t i n g w e h a d w it h D A i t w a s i n 2 0 1 5 2 3 A u g u s t t h a t i s th e fi r s t m e e ti n g w e h a d w it h D A . Th e y a s k e d u s a s to w h e t h e r w e r e w e a w a r e o f th e n a m e o f t h e p r o j e c t i n i ti a lly w h e n i t w a s i n i ti a t e d , w h a t w a s t h e n a m e o f th e p r o j e c t? A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s s o t h e in f o r m a ti o n y o u g i v i n g u s n o w w a s n o t c o v e r e d b y M r D h l a m i n i is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s p r o c e e d . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : 20 Okay t h e f ir s t n a m e w a s M a h o m a - M o b u n g a n d t h a t w a s t h e f ir s t n a m e o f th e p r o j e c t a n d t h e n n o w t h e r e w a s a s e c o n d n a m e w h ic h i s Vr e d e D a ir y. T h e n th e th ir d n a m e w a s n o w C o m m u n i ty D a ir y. Al l th e s e n a m e w h e n they were changed we were not aware. B a s i c a ll y w e w e r e n e v e r c o n s u l t e d a b o u t t h e n a m e c h a n g i n g o f t h i s d a ir y p r o je c t . O n e m in u t e w e w o u l d s e e th a t i t is M a h o m a - M o b u n g t h e n e x t t h i n g i t is Vr e d e D a i r y Page 75 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 P r o d u c t a n d th e n e x t t h i n g i t i s C o m m u n i ty D a ir y. As t o w h y – w h a t w a s in fl u e n c i n g t h e c h a n g e s o f th e n a m e s w e d i d n o t k n o w. A n d t h e n D A t o l d – Mr R o y f r o m D A t h e n to l d u s th a t t h e r e w e r e I n d ia n s w h o w e r e in v o lv e d i n t h i s p r o j e c t . Th e y l e f t th e p r o j e c t i n 2 0 1 5 b u t h e t o l d u s t h a t th e y h a v e s h a r e s in t o th e p r o j e c t to t h e a m o u n t o f 2 . 5 m il li o n . INTERPRETER: Yo u r W o r s h i p I n e e d c la r i ty n o w i n t e r m s o f t h is m e e ti n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t . Yo u h a d a m e e t i n g w i t h Mr J a n k i e ls o h n , Mr R o y J a n k i e ls o h n , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : Th a t is correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d id h e s a y to y o u ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : He e x p l a i n e d t o u s a b o u t t h e – w h e n t h i s p r o j e c t w a s in i ti a te d i t w a s n o t le g i t i m a te . I t w a s n o t d o n e p r o c e d u r a lly. T h e y d i d n o t f o ll o w p r o c e d u r e b e c a u s e it w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e in i ti a te d f r o m t h e P a r l i a m e n t li k e f ir s t . I t w a s f ir s t s u p p o s e d t o b e is it p r o m u lg a t e d in P a r l ia m e n t fir s t? I a m n o t s u r e i f th e t e r m is r i g h t. CHAIRPERSON: Approved. 20 MR MESHACK M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [through I nt e r p r e t e r ] : A p p r o v e d in P a r li a m e n t f ir s t s i n c e i t w a s a b i g p r o je c t. Okay M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e a n d t h e m t h o s e w h o w e r e l e a d i n g th e p r o je c t t h e y t o o k t h e li s t t o P a r li a m e n t b u t I a m n o t s u r e Yo u r W o r s h i p I n e e d c la r i ty w h e t h e r t h e lis t i s t h e li s t o f b e n e f ic i a r ie s ? Th e p r o p o s a l – t h e y w e r e – t h e y t o o k th e p r o p o s a l t o P a r l i a m e n t t h o s e w h o w e r e le a d i n g t h e p r o je c t Page 76 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e y t h e n to o k it t o P a r li a m e n t M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e w a s o n e o f t h e m . A lr ig h t . W h e n t h is d r a f t o f a p r o p o s a l to t a k e n t o P a r li a m e n t th e y – it w a s th e n d is c o v e r e d t h a t t h o s e – t h e b e n e fic ia r i e s in t h a t p r o je c t w e r e I n d ia n p e o p le . H e t h e n – R o y J a n k ie l s o h n n o ti c e d t h a t fr o m t h is p r o p o s a l d r a f t i t w a s t h e I n d i a n p e o p l e w h o w e r e g o in g t o b e n e f i t fr o m t h is p r o j e c t b u t n o t b l a c k p e o p l e fr o m S o u th A f r ic a . I t w a s w h e n Mr J a n k i e ls o h n q u e s t io n e d a s t o w h y a r e t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s o f t h i s p r o j e c t a r e I n d ia n p e o p l e w h e r e a r e t h e b l a c k p e o p l e ? there were none. 10 Only to discover that W h e n Mr J a n k i e ls o h n w a s i n f o r m in g u s a b o u t th is in f o r m a ti o n i t w a s a t t h e s t a g e w h e n t h e s e In d ia n p e o p le w e r e l e a v in g the project. A n d t h e n h e i n fo r m e d u s t h a t t h e s e I n d ia n p e o p l e s i n c e t h e y a r e l e a v i n g t h e p r o je c t t h e ir s h a r e s t h a t t h e y g o t fr o m t h i s p r o je c t a r e 2 . – A c c o r d i n g t o h i m 2 . S o m e t h i n g m i l li o n . A n d t h e n h e w a s a s k in g fr o m a n o ffi c e t h a t d e a l t o r w a s d e a l i n g w i t h t h e s h a r e s a n d s a i d , w h e r e a r e th e s h a r e s o f t h e b l a c k p e o p le ? I t w a s b a s ic a l ly t h e s h a r e s o f t h e b l a c k b e n e fi c i a r ie s a n d t h e n th e y s a id h e r e t h e y a r e th e y w e r e 9 1 m il li o n f o r t h e b la c k b e n e f ic ia r i e s . T h a t w a s t h e m e e ti n g w e h e l d w i t h D A th e y e a r 2 0 1 5 in A u g u s t. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I: 20 Ye s C h a ir I c o u l d s e e w e a r e a lr e a d y i n to lu n c h . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I – t h a t is fi n e b u t I w a n t u s t o fi n i s h w i t h t h e witness. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th e w i t n e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t w h e n w e c o m e b a c k w e h a v e a n o th e r w i t n e s s . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . Page 77 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s . W a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t a l l y o u w a n t e d t o t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t m e e t in g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : Th a t is all yes. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Is t h e r e a n y th in g e ls e t h a t M s D h l a m i n i d i d n o t c o v e r t h a t y o u t h in k is i m p o r t a n t t o te ll m e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : N o . W e 10 covered almost everything. T h a t is t h e o n ly t h i n g th a t h e d i d n o t m e n ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir m a y I – I j u s t n e e d t o a s k him a few questions? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . H a v e y o u e v e r b e e n t o t h e d a ir y f a r m yourself? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : I went t h e r e a t t h e t i m e w h e n th e r e w a s D A a n d M r M a i m a n e a n d th e n t h e 20 f o ll o w i n g d a y t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e a v is i t f r o m – n o n o t t h e f o l lo w in g d a y – o h th e p r e v i o u s d a y – o k a y I w e n t tw ic e . When there was Mr Masiteng a day before. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Sorry then I do not get it. M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : on the day when there was DA. Page 78 of 217 I went 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I: A n d y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h e p r e v i o u s d a y y o u w e r e – y o u h a d a m e e t i n g w i t h D o c t o r M a s i t e n g , is t h a t r i g h t ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s . A D V Z I N H L E B U TH E L E Z I : Ye s . W a s t h a t t h e f ir s t ti m e y o u w e r e a t th e d a ir y ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u s u b s e q u e n tly b e e n to t h e d a ir y ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o s u b s e q u e n tl y. Wa s t h a t t h e o n ly t i m e y o u w e n t th e r e o r h a v e y o u s u b s e q u e n tly g o n e t h e r e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : Oh we h a d v e l d fir e s s o w e w e n t t h e r e n o t a s a p r o j e c t Yo u r W o r s h i p . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : But on – a s i n d iv id u a ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: T h a n k y o u . A n d y o u – d i d y o u a t te n d t h e m e e ti n g w i th t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r th a t w a s t h is y e a r, M a y ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : May 2 0 1 9 – I a m n o t s u r e b u t i t w a s i n M a y th is y e a r. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 2 0 1 9 . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : Page 79 of 217 May 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h is y e a r. A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . D i d y o u a tt e n d t h a t m e e t in g ? Ar e y o u h a p p y w i t h w h a t M r D h l a mi n i t o ld u s ? I N T E R P R E T E R : S o r r y w h a t w a s t h e l a s t p o r ti o n o f y o u r q u e s ti o n ? A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Are you happy with what Mr Dhlamini told u s r e g a r d i n g th a t m e e t i n g ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : Ye s I a m h a p p y. A D V ZI N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 10 A n d d i d y o u m a k e a s ta t e m e n t w it h t h e Hawks? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : Ye s I did. A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n it w a s ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : Th e s t a te m e n ts i t w a s – I t h in k t h e r e w a s a m is t a k e a r o u n d t h e d a t e s . It w a s l a s t y e a r. I t w a s i n 2 0 1 8 w h e n t h e – J a n u a r y w h e n w e t o o k – th e s t a te m e n ts w e r e t a k e n b y t h e H a w k s . A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h o k a y t h a n k y o u . A n d th e r e w e r e m e d i a r e p o r t s th a t t h e fa r m e r s i n Vr e d e t r a v e ll e d t o B l o e m f o n t e in w h e n M r 20 Z w a n e w a s a p p o in t e d a s a M E C . D i d y o u t a k e p a r t i n th a t tr i p ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r p r e t e r ] : Indeed it is c o r r e c t . J a w e t r a v e ll e d i n a c o m b i a n d t h e n w e w e n t t h e r e i n d e e d . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h y d id y o u g o th e r e ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : We w e r e h a p p y t h a t a p e r s o n fr o m o u r a r e a o r w h e r e w e s t a y Yo u r W o r s h i p Page 80 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 h a s b e e n n o m i n a t e d a s a M E C m a y b e t h a t w i ll b r i n g c h a n g e Yo u r W o r s h i p i n o u r a r e a w h e r e w e s t a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : M s B u t h e le z e . A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: W e s a i d w e o n ly w a n t to c o v e r w h a t h e t h i n k s M r D h l a m in i d i d n o t c o v e r o r w h a t h e – w h a t M r D h l a mi n i s a i d w h i c h d o e s n o t a c c o r d w i t h h is r e c o l le c t i o n . ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir I t h o u g h t th is w a s n o t c o v e r e d b y M r D h la m i n i. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Let us wrap up. Let us wrap up. ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: I t m a y b e m y mi s ta k e th a n k y o u . A n d d o y o u r e m e m b e r if t h e tr i p to B l o e m f o n t e i n w a s b e fo r e o r a f te r t h e d a ir y project was started? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : It was before. A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . O n e l a s t is s u e t h a t I w a n t y o u t o d e a l w i t h . Th e t h r e a t s t h a t Mr D h la m i n i t e s t i fi e d a b o u t w e r e y o u – a r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y t h r e a t s t h a t w e r e m a d e ? O r a r e th e r e a n y t h r e a t s that were made to you? 20 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : I am a w a r e o r I d o h a v e k n o w l e d g e o f t h e t h r e a ts a l l o f t h e m . B e c a u s e w h a t h a p p e n e d is w h e n w e l e ft a f te r w e b u r i e d Mr N g w e n y a w e w e r e g o in g back to our homes. B e fo r e w e c o u ld e v e n r e a c h o u r h o m e s s o m e o n e s a i d i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n t h e t w o o f y o u a r e i n t h e l is t . A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I: A n d h a v e y o u p e r s o n a l ly r e p o r te d t o a n y o f Page 81 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e la w e n f o r c e m e n t o ff ic i a ls ? M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : Th e p e r s o n w h o r e p o r t e d t h a t w a s Mr – t h e t h r e a ts it is Mr D h l a m in i n o t myself. I have never reported it. ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI: T h a t i s a l l C h a ir. I h a v e n o fu r th e r q u e s t io n s f o r th e w i t n e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I ta k e it t h a t y o u d o n o t h a v e a n y f u r t h e r m a t t e r th a t y o u w a n t t o b r in g t o m y a t te n ti o n o t h e r t h a n w h a t M r D h l a m i n i h a s b r o u g h t t o m y a t te n ti o n a n d w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? 10 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r pr e t e r ] : W h il e I a m g r a t e f u l to e v e r y t h i n g t h a t M r D h l a mi n i Yo u r W o r s h i p h a s – C h a ir h a s s a i d b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n w e a r e a l w a y s t o g e t h e r a n d i t is e x a c t ly what happened. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : W e a r e a l w a y s t o g e t h e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s n o t h a t i s f in e . I w a s s a y i n g w h a t Mr D h la m i n i has said and what you have said so both of you have made a c o n tr i b u t i o n it is n o t l ik e i t M r D h l a m i n i o n l y. 20 M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I n t e r p r e t e r ] : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Mr M c o n g w a n e fo r c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s i o n w e a r e g r a te f u l f o r h a v i n g c o m e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . M R M E S H A C K M PA L E N I N C 0 N G WA N E [ t h r o u g h I nt e r pr e t e r ] : you. Page 82 of 217 Thank 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. W e a r e g o in g t o ta k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t w e w i ll r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r p a s t tw o . W e a d j o u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s I a m C h a i r m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Let us proceed. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: 10 C h a ir m a n th is a f te r n o o n w e a r e h e a r i n g t h e t e s ti m o n y o f D r Ta n k i s i J a n k i M a s i t e n g . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Dr Masiteng good afternoon. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Good afternoon m a ’a m . Good a ft e r n o o n C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Are you ready to be sworn in? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. P le a s e a d m i n i s t e r th e o a t h o f a ffir m a t i o n . R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : D r Ta n k is i J a n k i M a s it e n g . D r Ta n k is i J a n k i M a s it e n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e r a is e y o u r v o i c e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : D r Ta n k is i J a n k i M a s it e n g . REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n w i th t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? Page 83 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : S o h e l p m e G o d . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a t e s ) 10 CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . Dr Masiteng if you go t o p a g e o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t - th e r e is a w i t n e s s b u n d le o n y o u r t a b l e . To y o u r l e ft t h e r e a r e s o m e r e f e r e n c e fi l e s t h a t I w il l p o i n t y o u t o a s a n d w h e n i t b e c o m e s n e c e s s a r y t o d o s o b u t f o r n o w w e a r e j u s t g o in g t o h a v e a l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t is in fr o n t o f y o u . S o if y o u g o to p a g e 1 – o h C h a ir m a n my a p o lo g ie s . M y c o ll e a g u e is r e m in d i n g m e t h a t I h a v e f o r g o t te n to in tr o d u c e - t o – t o … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e x h i b it . 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ex p l a in t h a t w e a r e n o w d e a l in g w i t h E X H I B I T HH5. CHAIRPERSON: T h e le v e r a r c h fi le c o n ta in i n g t h e s t a t e m e n t o f D r Ta n k is i J a n k i M a s it e n g w il l b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T H H 5 . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I w i ll b e m a k e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I m u s t ju s t c h e c k . Yo u r m id d l e n a m e i s i t Page 84 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 p r o n o u n c e d a s J a n k i o r Ya n k i? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : J a n k i. CHAIRPERSON: Janki? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I w il l a ls o b e – b e u s i n g th e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e s th is a f t e r n o o n . W e h a v e n o w … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h o n e ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE: 10 It i s A , B , C a n d D . T h e y h a v e n o w d iv i d e d t h e m i n t o fo u r i n s t e a d o f th r e e fil e s b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e t o o t ig h t w h e n t h e y w e r e j u s t – i t is t h e r e f e r e n c e b u n d le C h a ir m a n b u t w e a r e n o t t h e r e y e t . I w a s j u s t i n d ic a ti n g th a t w e w i ll b e g o i n g t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: I w a n t to p u t i t c l o s e r b e c a u s e n o b o d y p u t i t c l o s e r for me. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: C h a i r m a n I a m j u s t v e r y q u i c k ly d e f in i te ly B , d e f in i te ly A I k n o w a n d B . CHAIRPERSON: I have got A and B. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T h a n k y o u C h a i r ma n . Fr o m m y n o t e s t h o s e a r e t h e t w o t h a t s e e m t o b e t h e c r i t ic a l o n e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : F o r t h is a f te r n o o n s p u r p o s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A r e w e g o in g to b e n e e d i n g t h e m e d i a b u n d l e ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W e s h o u ld n o t C h a ir m a n . I – I j u s t a s k e d th e R e g is tr a r to le a v e i t h e r e in c a s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 85 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: But I – I doubt it very much. I – thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : D r M a s i t e n g i f y o u c o u ld g o t o p a g e 1 o f y o u r s w o r n a ff id a v i t a n d a s y o u h o l d th a t p a g e if y o u c o u ld ju s t a l s o lo o k a t page 6 of the same document and .. CHAIRPERSON: I – I s e e th a t i t l o o k s lik e t h e r e is a n e w h a n d in t e r m s o f w h a t is h a p p e n i n g . A n a ff id a v i t is a s w o r n s t a te m e n t . So I s e e t h a t w e a r e h a v i n g s w o r n a ffi d a v i t s . I t i s d o u b le s w o r n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: 10 Ye s . S o t h e fi r s t s w o r n is ta u t o l o g y a n d a s t h e l e g a l t e a m w e d i d n o t p i c k i t u p . O u r a p o lo g i e s b u t y o u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir m a n a n d I a l w a y s s a y th a t a s y o u m a k e c o m m e n t s th e r e s t o f u s p ic k u p o n t h i n g s th a t – ja w e c a n i m p r o v e o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t t h a t i s a b s o l u te ly c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, thank you. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . S o i t is i n f a c t a n a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e i t is a s w o r n s t a t e m e n t a s a n a ff id a v i t. T h e C h a ir m a n is c o r r e c t . C o u l d y o u c o n fir m y o u r n a m e s o n p a g e 1 ? Is th a t y o u ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d t h e n c o u l d y o u th e n c o n f ir m o n p a g e 6 w h o t h e d e p o n e n t is w h o s e – w h o s e s i g n a t u r e r a th e r a p p e a r s w h e r e t h e w o r d “ d e p o n e n t ” is ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t … ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Whose signature? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t is m y s i g n a t u r e . Page 86 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: I s th a t y o u r s ig n a t u r e a n d o n w h a t d a te a n d a t w h a t p l a c e d i d y o u s i g n t h i s a ff id a v i t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : It was signed at Bloemfontein on 28 June 2019. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Thank you. Yo u a r e f a m ili a r w i t h i ts c o n te n ts ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I a m fa m i li a r w i th t h e c o n t e n ts . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Yo u h a v e o f c o u r s e g i v e n u s a v e r y s h o r t a ffi d a v i t i n r e s p e c t o f t h e – th e m a t t e r s y o u w i ll b e t e s t if y i n g to b u t y o u 10 h a v e a ls o ta k e n t h e li b e r ty o f a n n e x i n g a r a t h e r v o lu m i n o u s a n n e x – a n n e x u r e w h i c h r e p r e s e n ts t h e c o u r t p a p e r s th a t a r e p a r t o f t h e c o u r t r e c o r d w h ic h y o u w o u ld lik e u s to r e f e r t o . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Yo u c o n fi r m t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n c i te d a s a p a r t y b o th – w e ll i n t h e A s s e t Fo r f e it u r e A p p l ic a ti o n t h a t t h e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty b r o u g h t a n d t h a t y o u a ls o h a v e b e e n fa c i n g c r i m i n a l p r o s e c u t io n i n r e s p e c t o f t h e c r i m in a l m a t t e r s b r o u g h t b u t th a t in r e s p e c t o f t h e c r i m i n a l m a t t e r t h a t c a s e h a s b e e n w i th d r a w n a g a i n s t you? 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d y o u r fu ll e x p l a n a t i o n o f e v e r y th i n g y o u d i d y o u s a y is in t h is v o lu m i n o u s a n n e x u r e th a t y o u h a v e … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Favoured … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . Page 87 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: The Commission with? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Thank you. D r M a s i t e n g I th in k it i s u s e fu l ju s t t o s t a r t o ff w i t h w h o y o u a r e , w h a t y o u d o . J u s t t h e p r e s e n t b e fo r e w e d e lv e i n t o t h e p a s t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h o – w h o a r e y o u q u a l i fi c a t io n w i s e ? W h a t d o y o u d o c u r r e n tly ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 Thank you very much A d v o c a t e G c a b a s h e . C h a ir p e r s o n c u r r e n tl y I a m th e A c t i n g H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t in t h e Fr e e S t a t e Province. I – i n t e r m s o f t h e q u a l i fic a t io n I – I h a v e a D o c to r a t e D e g r e e i n A g r ic u lt u r e . I h a v e c o m p l e te d i t i n 2 0 0 4 f r o m t h e C e n tr a l U n iv e r s i ty o f Te c h n o lo g y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Ye s . Th e n p r i o r to b e i n g a p p o in t e d H O D – h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t – in f a c t c a n I r e p h r a s e t h a t ? When were you a p p o i n t e d h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Through you Chairperson. I – I am a c ti n g . I h a v e s t a r t e d a c t in g i n – o n 2 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 8 . S o I a m – I d o 20 n o t e v e n h a v e a y e a r a c ti n g . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d t h e fu ll n a m e o f th e d e p a r t m e n t is ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e a n d R u r a l D e v e lo p m e n t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : O k a y. Th e o b j e c ti v e t o d a y i s to tr y a n d – a n d e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a i r m a n w h a t y o u r r o le h a s b e e n i n t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Page 88 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 P r o je c t m a t t e r. S o y o u k n o w t h a t is w h e r e w e a r e g o i n g t o b u t I th i n k i t w o u ld b e u s e fu l fo r u s to s t a r t a t a s l ig h tly d i ff e r e n t p o i n t w i t h fir s t w h e n y o u jo i n e d th e d e p a r t m e n t a n d w h e t h e r i t w a s c a ll e d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e lo p m e n t w h e n y o u j o i n e d . I t h i n k it w il l b e - th a t h is t o r y w il l i n f o r m t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e c o n te x t w i th – in w h ic h s o m e o f th e d e c is i o n s t h a t w e w i ll b e d is c u s s i n g w e r e t a k e n in . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o ju s t t e l l u s a li t tl e b i t w h e n y o u j o i n e d th e 10 d e p a r t m e n t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Chairperson I – I jo i n e d D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e w h e n i t w a s s t ill in t h e h o m e l a n d . the In t h e Q w a q w a H o m e l a n d a n d i n 1 9 9 6 a f t e r t h e e l e c ti o n s a f te r 1 9 9 4 w e – w e t h e n m o v e d in t o t h e p r o v i n c e . W e b e c a m e t h e F r e e S t a t e P r o v i n c e a n d one Department of Agriculture but I resigned in – in 2000 and I joined t h e - t h e C e n tr a l U n i v e r s i ty o f Te c h n o l o g y. A t th a t t i m e i t w a s Te c h n ic o n Fr e e S t a te a s a fu ll ti m e le c t u r e r and I r e - j o in e d th e departm ent as a Deputy D ir e c t o r r e s p o n s i b l e fo r e x t e n s io n a n d fo o t s e c u r it y. T h a t w a s i n – i n 2 0 0 2 a n d I 20 w a s p r o m o t e d th e n to t h e D ir e c t o r ’s p o s it i o n r e s p o n s ib le f o r a d is tr ic t . I n – i n th e p r o v i n c e w e h a v e f o u r d i s tr i c t s p l u s a m e tr o b u t i n to t a l le t u s s a y t h e r e a r e f iv e . I – I w a s a p p o in t e d to h e a d o n e o f t h o s e d is tr ic ts w h i c h is Xhariep. I w a s th e n m o v e d i n t o h e a d o ffic e t o b e r e s p o n s ib l e f o r F a r m e r S u p p o r t a n d D e v e l o p m e n t a n d I w a s a c t in g a C h i e f D ir e c to r Page 89 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 r e s p o n s i b l e f o r A g r i c u l tu r a l D e v e l o p m e n t S u p p o r t th e p o s i ti o n w h i c h I w a s a p p o i n t e d to . T h a t is A g r i c u l tu r a l D e v e l o p m e n t S u p p o r t b u t in 2 0 1 2 I w a s t h e n m o v e d - 1 A p r il – I w a s th e n m o v e d t o D is tr ic t S e r v i c e s t h e p o s i t io n w h ic h I – I w a s h o l d i n g u n ti l t h e 2 4 t h o r I a m s t ill h o l d i n g . I j u s t p a u s e d w h e n I w a s th e n a p p o i n t e d t o a c t a s a – a s a h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o i n th e p e r i o d 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 6 s p e c i fic a lly y o u a Chief D ir e c to r in the Department of A g r i c u l tu r e and Rural Development? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: D o y o u k n o w M r P e t e r T h a b e t h e t h e fo r m e r H O D o f th e d e p a r t m e n t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s I k n o w. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e r v e d u n d e r h i m ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I s e r v e d u n d e r h i m . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Good. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: C a n y o u j u s t g iv e th e C h a ir m a n a s h o r t s u m m a r y o f t h e – h is – h is m o v e – h i s p r o m o ti o n to H O D a n d r e a l ly I 20 a m m o r e in t e r e s t e d i n t h e o r g a n o g r a m a n d h o w it c h a n g e d b e c a u s e i t is i m p o r t a n t fo r t h e C h a i r m a n t o b e a b l e t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w o r a t w h a t s t a g e t h e t h e n H O D M r T h a b e t h e t o o k o ff ic e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n . A g r ic u l t u r e . O k a y. Th a n k you very much W h a t – w h a t w e h a d w e h a d th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A t th a t t i m e w e d i d n o t h a v e R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t . Page 90 of 217 Rural 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D e v e l o p m e n t w a s w i t h P u b li c W o r k s . Then Rural Development was m o v e d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d t h e n w e h a d s o r t o f t w o d e p a r t m e n ts . That is the Department of Rural Development and the D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d i n 2 0 1 0 M r T h a b e th e w a s a p p o i n te d a s a n H O D f o r R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t. Th a t w a s i n 2 0 1 0 a n d h e m o v e d t o A g r ic u l t u r e . I t w a s th e s a m e d e p a r t m e n t w e n o w c a l l t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t b u t w it h t w o H O D s . We had the h e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t f o r A g r ic u l t u r e . 10 We also Development. had the head of the Department for Rural S o o n ly i n 2 0 1 2 h e th e n m o v e d t o – t o A g r i c u l tu r e . T h e r e w a s t h a t m o v e m e n t . Th e – t h e H O D f o r – f o r a g r ic u l t u r e m o v e d t o r u r a l d e v e lo p m e n t a n d t h e H O D f o r r u r a l d e v e l o p m e n t m o v e d t o a g r ic u lt u r e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Who ta k e s those d e c is i o n s tr a n s fe r r i n g o ffic i a ls fr o m o n e p o s t t o a n o t h e r ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t – t h a t w il l b e th e – t h e E x e c u tiv e d e c is i o n t h a t is th e m o v e m e n t o f t h e H O D s a n d th a t i s t h e r e s p o n s ib il it y o f t h e P r e m ie r t o g e t h e r w i th t h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c il . 20 CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u s p e a k a b o u t t w o H O D s o n e f o r th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e . A n o th e r o n e b e i n g t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f R u r a l Development. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about these two being separate d e p a r t m e n ts o r a r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t t h e m b e i n g s e c ti o n s w i th in th e Page 91 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 s a m e d e p a r t m e n t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : HODs. I t i s – i t is o n e d e p a r t m e n t w it h t w o I t i s – i t is n o m o r e th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e o n l y. I t is n o w t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e lo p m e n t w i t h t w o H O D s a n d o n e Ex e c u ti v e a u th o r it y. O n e M E C b u t t w o H O D s . CHAIRPERSON: d e p a r t m e n t. Ye s b u t th e r e c a n n o t b e tw o h e a d s o f t h e s a m e Wa s t h e a r r a n g e m e n t s u c h t h a t o n e o f t h e m e n j o y e d t h e r a n k o f H O D b u t th e – t h e r e w a s o n e o f t h e m w h o w a s th e H O D ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n w a s ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t is w h y w e w e r e u s i n g d i ffe r e n t terms. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e o n e f o r a g r ic u l t u r e w e c a ll i t a n a c c o u n t in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 20 Ye s a n d t h e n t h e r u r a l d e v e l o p m e n t was an HOD but that was corrected … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : B e c a u s e th e n w e h a d t o h a v e o n e department and one HOD. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: S o w h a t d o y o u h a v e c u r r e n t ly ? Page 92 of 217 One 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 department and one HOD? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O n e H O D . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: W h e n M r P e te r T h a b e th e w a s th e r e - a n d I s p e c i f ic a l ly w a n t t o l o o k a t t h e p e r io d 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 / 2 0 1 5 a n d 2 0 1 6 in t h a t p e r i o d w a s t h a t t r a n s i ti o n a l p e r io d w h e r e y o u s ti ll h a d t h e tw o – two heads of department? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . T h a t w a s 2 0 1 0 / 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 . N o , n o j a . I th in k i t w a s u p t o 2 0 1 2 a n d t h e n w e h a d o n e H O D … ADV LEAH GCABASHE: So … 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W h ic h w a s t h e n M r Th a b e t h e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e r e w a s a n i n te r v i e w a n d t h e n i t w a s – Mr T h a b e t h e w a s r e s p o n s ib le f o r t h e m b o t h a g r i c u l tu r e a n d r u r a l development. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A s t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ffic e r ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A s t h e A c c o u n t in g O ff ic e r n o w. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: S o 2 0 1 3 h e t o o k s o le r e s p o n s i b il i ty f o r d e c is i o n s t h a t h a d t o b e m a d e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t e v e n i n 2 0 1 2 h e w o u l d t a k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r a n y t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h i n a g r ic u l t u r e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d a t t h a t ti m e y o u w e r e a C h i e f D ir e c t o r w i t h i n a g r ic u l t u r e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . Page 93 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o y o u r e p o r t e d t o Mr T h a b e t h e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I n t e r m s o f t h e o r g a n o g r a m I r e p o r t t o the HOD. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M a y b e y o u j u s t v e r y q u i c k ly w a n t t o ta k e t h e C h a ir m a n th r o u g h t h a t o r g a n o g r a m . I k n o w th a t y o u h a v e a n n e x e d i t t o your papers. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . I n – i n t e r m s o f th e o r g a n o g r a m t h a t i s - i n t e r m s o f t h e o r g a n o g r a m s tr u c t u r e … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : J u s t o n e m i n u t e – o n e m i n u te . 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : P a g e 2 - 6 - 8 C h a i r ma n a n d w e m u s t a p o l o g is e f o r t h e q u a l i ty o f t h e c o p y C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Mr – D r M a s i te n g h a s u n d e r t a k e n to tr y a n d fi n d a b e t t e r c o p y fo r u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e tt e r c o p i e s , o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: W e – w e a r e n o w te ll i n g e v e r y b o d y t h a t y o u h a v e a k e e n i n t e r e s t i n t h e m s u p p ly in g u s w i t h d o c u m e n ts a n d – a n d s o y o u h e l p e d C h a ir m a n … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B y a s k in g M r Ve n t e r f o r d o c u m e n t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . Page 94 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: I am at 2-6-8. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. N o w t h a n k s C h a ir. I n t e r m s o f t h e o r g a n o g r a m – o r g a n i s a t i o n a l s tr u c t u r e t h e M e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c il r e s p o n s i b l e f o r – f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t i s t h e ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : I m u s t ju s t – I a m s o r r y t o in t e r r u p t y o u D r M a s it e n g . T h i s o n e – th is – t h is c o p y is ju s t s o p o o r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: It is a very poor copy Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is n o t w o r t h e v e n l o o k i n g a t i t . T h a t is j u s t h o w b a d 10 it is . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I cannot read much but you can explain. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : It is o k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . T h e – th e E x e c u t iv e – th e M e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c i l is a c t u a ll y r e s p o n s ib le f o r th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t a n d i t i s a p o l i tic a l h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: 20 And then just pause for one second so that w e t id y t h i s u p i m m e d i a te ly. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 w h o w a s t h a t p o l i tic a l h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A t t h a t ti m e it w a s Mr Z w a n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Thank you. Page 95 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Please proceed. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o M r Zw a n e w a s t h e e x e c u ti n g a u th o r i ty … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d ( i n te r v e n e s ) . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Followed by the HOD. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : B y th e H O D . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e Ac c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H u h - u h . 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: And you were a level below that? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : And then you have – yes you have le g s . Yo u w i ll h a v e a C F O a s a l e t u s c a ll i t a C h ie f D ir e c t o r a t e a s a s t a n d a l o n e . I t r e p o r ts d ir e c tly t o t h e a c c o u n ti n g o ffic e . Yo u w i ll h a v e w h a t w e c a ll t h e D is tr i c t S e r v ic e s w h ic h i s th e C h i e f D i r e c to r a t e t h a t I a m – I a m h e a d i n g . T h e n y o u h a v e a n o t h e r C h i e f D i r e c t o r a t e w h ic h is le t u s c a ll i t A g r i c u l tu r a l D e v e lo p m e n t S u p p o r t a n d L iv e l i h o o d s o r le t u s s i m p l i fy i t b y s a y in g i t is p r o f e s s i o n a l s e r v i c e s . I t i s a C h i e f D ir e c t o r a te o n it s o w n . I t i s h e a d e d b y a n o t h e r C h i e f D ir e c t o r. A t th a t t i m e i t w a s a n A c ti n g C h i e f D ir e c t o r b u t t h e r e 20 w a s a s t a g e w h e n t h e r e w a s a – a p e r s o n w h o w a s tr a n s fe r r e d fr o m M p u m a la n g a t o Fr e e S t a te w h o to o k o v e r t h a t C h i e f D ir e c t o r a te a n d y o u w i ll a ls o h a v e m o n it o r i n g a n d e v a l u a t i o n a s a – a s a C h i e f D ir e c t o r a te . Yo u w i ll a ls o h a v e C o r p o r a t e S e r v ic e s . S o in t o ta l y o u w o u l d h a v e fi v e C h i e f D ir e c t o r a t e s u n d e r t h e A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r. Page 96 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t a g a in c o n t e x t is i m p o r t a n t . F o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m m a t t e r. T h e c r it ic a l e l e m e n ts o f t h e o r g a n o g r a m t h a t y o u a r e s k e tc h i n g … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H m . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d p l e a s e c o r r e c t m e i f I a m i n te r p r e ti n g y o u r e v i d e n c e i n c o r r e c tl y. Fir s t y o u h a v e g o t t h e M E C . W e ll a b o v e th e M E C o f c o u r s e y o u h a v e g o t t h e Pr e m i e r ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W i th a n Ex c o m a d e u p o f M E C s ? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: O k a y. So you have the MEC for the D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e lo p m e n t. Yo u t h e n h a v e th e H O D w h o is t h e A c c o u n t in g O ffic e r. Yo u t h e n h a v e D i s tr i c t S e r v ic e s C h i e f D ir e c to r a t e . T h a t is w h e r e y o u s i t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t y o u a ls o h a v e t h e C F O y o u h a v e t o l d u s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H u h - u h . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h o w o u l d r e p o r t to t h e – th e H O D . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e A c c o u n t in g O ff ic e r y e s . 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ar e t h o s e t h e c r i ti c a l p a r ts o f t h e o r g a n o g r a m f o r p u r p o s e s o f w h a t w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h t o d a y ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . T h e r e a r e – t h o s e a r e th e m o s t c r i ti c a l o n e s . T h e n a f t e r t h e m y o u w il l h a v e d i ff e r e n t l e g s , d i ff e r e n t Page 97 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D ir e c t o r – D i r e c t o r a te s . F o r D is tr i c t S e r v ic e s y o u w i ll fi v e D ir e c t o r s b e c a u s e e a c h a n d e v e r y d i s tr i c t w e h a v e a p p o in t e d a D ir e c to r – a S e n i o r M a n a g e r f o r t h a t m a t t e r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C a n y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir m a n w h a t t h e d i ff e r e n c e d is t r ic ts a r e w i th i n t h e Fr e e S t a te P r o v i n c e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u h a v e T h a b o M o f u t s a n y a n a . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: And then pause. Explain please to the C h a ir m a n is – is t h e t o w n o f Vr e d e … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S i t u a t e d i n Th a b o M o fu ts a n y a n a ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u . C o n t in u e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Vr e d e D a ir y and o th e r U n d e r T h a b o M o fu ts a n y a n a y o u h a v e p r o je c t s and we have c l a s s i fi e d Thabo M o f u ts a n y a n a a s o u r d a ir y h u b b e c a u s e y o u a ls o h a v e o t h e r d a ir y p r o j e c ts . Th e D is tr ic t D ir e c to r a t t h a t t i m e i t w a s A l ta M e y e r a s a n a c ti n g . T h a t is w h y y o u w il l h e a r a lo t o f A lt a … C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n fu s i o n , ja . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : S h e w a s a c t in g a s a D is tr i c t D ir e c t o r a n d s h e w a s n o t o n ly lo o k in g a f t e r o n e p r o j e c t w h i c h is Vr e d e D a ir y. S h e w a s lo o k i n g a t o t h e r p r o je c t s b u t i t i s – i t w a s h e r r e s p o n s ib il i ty to e v e r y n o w a n d t h e n k e e p i n t o u c h w it h th e b e n e f ic i a r ie s . nothing untoward over the hearing o f A l ta M e y e r. Page 98 of 217 S o th e r e is It was her 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 r e s p o n s i b i li ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e n th e p e r s o n w h o w a s a p p o in t e d f o r th e p o s i t io n w a s M r G e o r g e M a d i b a . T h a t is w h y y o u w i ll h e a r a g a i n t h e m e n ti o n i n g o f Mr G e o r g e M a d ib a – G e o r g e M a d i b a . He was a c t u a ll y a p p o in t e d a s a D i s tr i c t D ir e c to r b u t A l ta M e y e r b e c a u s e s h e w a s a P r o j e c t C o o r d i n a to r t h e n s h e w a s e v e r y n o w a n d t h e n i n v o lv e d in t h e a ff a ir s o f t h e p r o j e c t s a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r th b u t y o u a ls o h a v e n o w t h e e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r s i n a ll t h e t o w n s . Vr e d e f o r i n s ta n c e w ill h a v e i ts o w n e x t e n s io n o ff ic e r b u t w e 10 a ls o s tr e n g th e n t h a t b y a p p o i n t i n g t h e f o o t s e c u r i ty l e t u s c a ll t h e m o ffic e r s . T h o s e a r e a t th e l o w e r l e v e l t o s tr e n g t h e n t h e f o o t s e c u r i ty m o r e e s p e c i a l ly i n th is r e d s p o t s o r t o f t o w n s li k e Vr e d e w h e r e p o v e r t y is h ig h . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: W e ll w h i le w e a r e d e a l i n g w i th n a m e s o f p e o p l e w h o – w h o h a d b e e n m e n t i o n e d i n w i t n e s s e s ’ e v id e n c e a n d y o u speak of e x te n s i o n o ffic e r s and the foot s e c u r i ty o ffic ia ls . T h u t o K g a n y e is h e o n e o f t h e p e o p le w h o w o r k s a t l o w e r le v e l w i th i n … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e s tr u c t u r e o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : L o c a te h i m f o r t h e C h a ir m a n p l e a s e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h u t o w a s m o r e o f a - a fo o t s e c u r i ty o ffic e r a t th e l o w e r l e v e l a n d a t a c o n tr a c t u a l s o r t o f a b a s is . not a permanent appointment. Page 99 of 217 It was 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: And – and people li k e th a t w o u l d be appointed by whom? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : They are appointed by th e d e p a r t m e n t. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A t w h a t le v e l i s h e a p p o in t e d ? A t H O D l e v e l o r a t C h i e f D ir e c to r s h i p l e v e l o r a t D i s t r i c t D ir e c t o r s h i p l e v e l ? I just w a n t t o k n o w w h o h a d t h e a u th o r it y t o a p p o i n t in th is i n s t a n c e w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t T h u t o K g a n y e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 Ye s . A ll t h e a p p o i n t m e n ts i n t h e department are done by the HOD unless delegated depending on the le v e ls b u t e v e n t h o u g h t h e y a r e d e le g a t e d t h e H O D m u s t k n o w t h a t t h e r e is – w e a r e g o i n g to h a v e l e t u s s a y f iv e in T h a b o M o f u ts a n y a n a . W e a r e g o i n g t o h a v e s ix in X h a r ie p a n d s o o n a n d s o fo r t h . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: S o th e H O D w o u l d a c t u a ll y b e a p p o i n ti n g a l l S e n i o r M a n a g e r s w i th i n t h e Fr e e S ta t e A d m i n is tr a ti o n , a ll M i d d l e M a n a g e r s a n d e v e n j u n i o r o ff ic i a ls w i th in t h e Fr e e S t a t e A d m i n i s t r a t io n in a l l f iv e d is tr ic ts … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t is r i g h t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d t h e r e is a m e tr o . 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. Th a t is w h y I s a i d u n l e s s d e l e g a t e d . N o w w h a t h a p p e n e d is th a t t h e d e l e g a t i o n is s u c h t h a t t h e H O D w il l b e r e s p o n s ib le f o r t h e – f o r t h e C h i e f D ir e c to r s a n d – a n d t h e S e n i o r M a n a g e r s . T h e D e p u ty D ir e c t o r s a n d t h e A s s is t a n t D i r e c t o r s w il l b e a p p o in t e d b y t h e C h i e f D ir e c to r s a n d s o i t g o e s b u t t h e in f o r m a ti o n m u s t b e d is c u s s e d a t th a t l e v e l o f t h e H O D t o b e – to b e i n fo r m e d a s a n Page 100 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r t h a t t h e r e w il l b e a p p o in t m e n ts n o t n e c e s s a r ily m e a n i n g t h a t t h e H O D w ill b e s it t in g t h e r e c o n d u c t in g th e in t e r v i e w s a n d s o o n a n d s o fo r t h . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T h e o t h e r n a m e th a t h a s c o m e u p in t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n p l a c e d b e f o r e t h e C h a ir m a n is th a t o f X o lis a S ib e k o . I s t h a t a n a m e y o u a r e f a m ili a r w i t h a ls o fr o m t h e Vr e d e area? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I a m f a m il i a r w i th t h a t . A t Vr e d e I t h i n k t h e r e – t h e r e w e r e t w o p e o p le w h o w e r e a p p o in t e d a s – a s fo o t 10 s o l d ie r s fo r f o o t s e c u r i ty p u r p o s e s … ADV LEAH GCABASHE: So … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : B u t I th i n k I m u s t – t h a t o n e I m u s t v e r i fy p r o p e r ly C h a ir p e r s o n b u t y e s I k n o w a t Vr e d e w e a p p o i n t e d n o t o n ly o n e p e r s o n . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d y o u – y o u a r e t a k in g a n e d u c a t e d g u e s s a n d s a y in g i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n T h u to K g a n y e … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d X o l is a Si b e k o . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s , y e s C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T h e y h a v e o f c o u r s e b e e n m e n ti o n e d in t h e a ffi d a v i t o f M r D h l a m in i w h o g a v e e v i d e n c e e a r l ie r to d a y a n d y e s t e r d a y … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: And that of Mr Ncongwane. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . Page 101 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: come up. Mr J i m m y P a s h e ll is a n o th e r n a m e th a t h a s I s t h a t a n o ffi c i a l w i t h i n y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a s w e l l w h o y o u know about? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : J i m m y – J i m m y is a n e x t e n s i o n o ffic e r. J i m m y is a t a m u c h h i g h e r l e v e l . CHAIRPERSON: A n d e x te n s i o n o ffic e r w o u l d b e a t w h a t l e v e l i n r e l a ti o n t o a D ir e c to r – a C h ie f D ir e c t o r a n d s o o n ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u – y o u w i ll h a v e th e D i r e c t o r. Yo u w i ll a ls o h a v e a D e p u ty D ir e c to r. 10 Yo u w i ll h a v e a n As s is t a n t D ir e c t o r a n d t h e c o n t r o ls . Th e n y o u w i ll h a v e t h e t e c h n ic a l s ta ff t h a t w i ll b e t h e e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r s , t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t) te c h n i c i a n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: W h il e w e a r e o n t h i s to p ic i t w o u ld b e in t e r e s ti n g t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e d i ff e r e n c e i n f u n c ti o n s o f th e e x t e n s io n o ffic e r a n d t h e f o o d s e c u r i ty o ff ic e r s a n d I s a y t h i s – I r e a l ly w a n t to b e q u i te fr a n k b e c a u s e t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n le d s o f a r s e e ms t o i m p ly t h a t t h e fo o d s e c u r i t y o ff ic e r s w e r e s i m p l y h e n c h m e n o f t h e M E C 20 a n d i f I g o t t h a t w r o n g I w il l c o r r e c t i t b u t t h a t is t h e i m p r e s s io n I h a v e h a d fr o m t h e e v id e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n l e d . P l e a s e e x p la in t h e s e r o l e s t o u s b e c a u s e w e n o w k n o w t h e y a r e l o c a t e d i n y o u r d e p a r t m e n t – t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d Rural Development. W e n o w k n o w th a t y o u a s a C h i e f D i r e c t o r k n o w a b o u t th e s e p a r ti c u l a r a p p o i n t e e s . C a n y o u t e l l u s a li t tl e m o r e Page 102 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 b e c a u s e y o u – y o u a r e a b l e t o a n d w il li n g t o ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r i s a M a n a g e r o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r w a r d . I f w e a p p o in t a n e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r f o r Vr e d e th a t p e r s o n is a M a n a g e r o f t h a t to w n . Now under that you would have a d m i n is tr a t o r s b u t th e f o o t s o l d ie r s t h e y r e p o r t t o t h e e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r a n d t h e y a r e a s s i g n e d w i t h r e s p o n s i b i l it ie s o f e s t a b li s h i n g a f o o t s e c u r i ty g a r d e n s a n d o t h e r f o o t s e c u r i ty i n i ti a ti v e s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h a t q u a l if ic a ti o n d o e s o n e n e e d t o b e c o m e a f o o d w h a t d id y o u s a y ? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H m . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e e m t o s a y s o l d i e r. S o I d o n o t w a n t t o g e t it w r o n g . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . O n t h a t o n e w e – i t c a n b e a t a M a tr ic l e v e l p lu s m a y b e t h e tr a i n i n g c o u r s e s th a t a r e y o u a r e a l r e a d y h a v i n g o r t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t w il l t a k e y o u th r o u g h . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w il l y o u … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o h a v e a f o r m a l q u a li fi c a t io n l ik e a n e x te n s i o n o ffi c e r. CHAIRPERSON: 20 S o r r y b u t w e r e y o u s a y in g fo o d s o l d i e r o r f o o t solider? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : J a , fo o t s o l d i e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo o t s o l d i e r ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a n k – th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I w a s g o i n g to Page 103 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n , I d i d w a n t c l a r i t y o n that. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , i t’s f o o t s o l d i e r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t t h e o ff ic i a l te r m is a fo o d s e c u r i ty o ffic e r, w h a t ’s th e i r t i tl e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e y a r e o ff ic e r s , th e y a r e j u s t o ffic e r s b u t a t t h e l o w e r l e v e l y o u d o h a v e a d is tr ic t c o o r d i n a t o r, f o o d 10 s e c u r i ty c o o r d i n a t o r s , t h o s e o n e s a r e a l m o s t a t th e s i m il a r le v e l l ik e th e e x t e n s i o n s o ff ic e r s . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e w e s h o u l d a s k i s o f t h e s e p e o p le w h o w o u ld y o u p u t u n d e r t h e l a b e l o f fo o t s o l d i e r s , s o w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t f o o t s o l d ie r w e r e y o u r e fe r r i n g t o a c a t e g o r y o f o ffic e r s in th e D e p a r t m e n t o r w e r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o a s p e c if ic p e r s o n o r w a s t h a t j u s t .. . [i n t e r v e n e s ] A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A Fr e u d i a n s li p . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , I ’ m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d b e c a u s e i t m a y b e t h a t i n a w a y a s a c ti n g h e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t y o u s e e th e D e p a r t m e n t a s b e i n g in a w a y o n o r in a w a r, m a y b e a g a i n s t p o v e r t y, a n d y o u h a v e g o t 20 f o o t s o l d i e r s i n th is b a tt l e , i n t h is w a r a g a i n s t p o v e r ty a n d m a y b e t h a t’s t h e c o n t e x t y o u a r e u s i n g t h e t e r m f o o t s o ld i e r s , s o I a m t r y i n g to understand what you – who you may have been referring to. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e w h o le D i s tr ic t S e r v ic e s w e a l w a y s r e f e r to it a s th e c o l d f a c e o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t. T h o s e a r e t h e p e o p le w h o m u s t b e c l o s e r t o – t h o s e a r e Page 104 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e o ffic i a ls w h o m u s t b e c lo s e r t o t h e p e o p le . N o w y o u h a v e th e s e o n e s t h a t I a m r e fe r r i n g t o , i t i s j u s t a t e r m th a t I h a v e u s e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d b u t I w a n t e d t o k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a c a te g o r y o f o ffic e r s t h a t y o u r e g a r d a s t h e f o o t s o l d ie r s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d if th a t is t h e c a s e I w a n te d t o u n d e r s t a n d th a t , o r w h e t h e r i t’s n o t l ik e t h e y a r e – t h e r e a r e c e r ta i n c a t e g o r ie s o f o ffic e r s t h a t y o u r e fe r t o a s f o o t s o l d ie r s , i t is ju s t a t e r m t h a t y o u c o u l d u s e to r e fe r t o a n y b o d y i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t , t h a t i s working for the department. 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o w e a lw a y s r e f e r t h e o n e s t h a t a r e a c t u a ll y d o i n g t h i s . CHAIRPERSON: At the cold face? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d t h o s e w o u l d b e e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r s ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h o s e w ill b e e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r s , w il l b e t h e f o o d s e c u r i ty o ff ic e r s , w i ll b e t h e a n i m a l h e a lt h te c h n ic i a n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W il l b e t h e s o i l c o n s e r v a t io n t e c h n ic ia n s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W il l b e a ls o , t h e g r a d u a te e c o n o m ic s y e s t h e y a r e b e c a u s e th e y a r e a t t h e d i s tr i c t l e v e l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d t h o s e a r e , ja th o s e a r e t h e k e y o n e s , a n d w e a ls o h a v e t h e p r o j e c t o ffi c e r s , t h o s e a r e t h e o n e s t h a t w e Page 105 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 r e fe r t o a s th e c o l d fa c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e a r e t h e o n e s w h o in t e r a c t w i t h t h e p u b lic a n d w i t h t h e fa r m e r s , w i t h t h e c o m m u n i ty o n a d a il y b a s is ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t to e x t e n d t h e q u e s t i o n t h e C h a i r m a n h a s j u s t a s k e d w h o w o u l d t h e n b e m o n it o r in g a n d o v e r s e e in g p r o je c t s in t h e D is tr ic t a n d I u s e i n t h i s i n s t a n c e t h e e x a m p l e o f th e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t, s o o f t h e p e r s o n n e l y o u ’v e j u s t t o l d u s a b o u t w h o w o u l d b e 10 in t e r a c ti n g w i th a p r o je c t s u c h a s t h e Vr e d e D a i r y Pr o je c t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : J a , w h a t h a p p e n e d is th is t h e D i s tr i c t S e r v ic e s w il l o n ly w a it i f t h e p r o j e c t is u n d e r c o n s t r u c ti o n u n ti l a c o m p le t io n c e r ti f ic a t e i s is s u e d b u t w h e r e a p r o j e c t is c o m p le t e d t h e D i s t r ic t S e r v i c e s h a d to i n t e r a c t , t h a t w i ll a l s o i n c l u d e t h e p r o j e c t c o o r d i n a t o r s a n d s o o n a n d s o fo r t h , b u t i n th is c a s e o f a Vr e d e P r o j e c t r e m e m b e r a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t w a s a p p o i n te d s o t h e D i s tr i c t d id n o t h a v e a r o l e a s s u c h t o p l a y, e x c e p t t o i n t e r a c t w it h t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s a n d a ls o t h e p r o fe s s i o n a l s e r v ic e s , t h a t o n e t h a t h a s g o t t h e e n g i n e e r s , t h a t h a s g o t t h e e c o n o mi e s , t h a t h a s g o t t h e r e s e a r c h h o u s e a n d s o o n , 20 t h e y d i d n o t h a v e th a t m u c h r o le t o p l a y b e c a u s e a n i m p l e m e n ti n g agent was appointed. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : G o o d w e a r e g o i n g t o c o m e b a c k to t h a t w h e n w e ’r e l o o k i n g a t th e a g r e e m e n t o n E s t in a , I a m r e a l ly tr y i n g to g e t a b r o a d s e n s e a n d t o u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h i n g s w o u ld n o r m a ll y w o r k w i t h i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d I j u s t tr i e d t o fi t t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o j e c t r e a l ly i n t o Page 106 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e n o r m a l s tr u c t u r e s b u t I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g , w e w il l c o m e b a c k t o t a l k a b o u t w h a t a n i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t is , w h a t t h e q u a li t ie s a r e e tc e te r a , e tc e t e r a . C a n I t h e n a s k y o u to – th e o n ly o ff ic ia l w h o w e r e a l ly h a v e n ’ t s p e n t a b i t o f t i m e o n i s t h e C F O b e c a u s e w e n o w k n o w a l l t h e p e o p l e w h o e s s e n t ia ll y w o u l d b e r e p o r t i n g i n t o t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r a te , w h i c h is w h a t y o u h e a d e d , a n d y o u r e p o r t t o t h e H O D , y o u a ls o h a v e t h e C F O , ju s t t e l l u s e x a c t ly w h a t t h e f u n c ti o n s o f t h e C F O in t h a t e n v ir o n m e n t a r e , a n d i f th e r e is a n y d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n t h e f u n c t i o n s t o d a y, a s y o u h a v e f o u n d t h e m i n t h a t o ffi c e a n d t h e f u n c ti o n s 10 in 2 0 1 2 , 1 3 , 1 4 p l e a s e ju s t p o i n t t h a t o u t t o t h e C h a ir m a n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n le t m e tr y t o a s s is t t h e n , p l e a s e t h a t is n o t m y fi e l d n o w b u t I a m tr y in g to a s s is t n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s , I w a s n ’t s u r e w h e th e r y o u p a r ti c u l a r l y w a n t e d th e f u n c ti o n s o r y o u w a n te d t o – w h e r e i n t h e h ie r a r c h y a C F O fi ts b u t y o u s a i d fu n c t i o n s ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e h e h a s e x p l a in e d w h e r e i n th e h i e r a r c h y t h e C F O . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d s i m p ly I ’ m t a k i n g th e li b e r ty b e c a u s e 20 h e h a p p e n s t o b e th e Ac t in g H O D , a n d i f h e h a s b e e n th e r e fo r s ix m o n th s I t h i n k h e k n o w s h is n a m n a m n o w. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : L e t m e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: S h e d o e s n ’ t n e c e s s a r i ly n e e d y o u t o t a b u l a t e a l l o f t h e m , s h e j u s t w a n ts t h e e s s e n ti a l o n e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A lr i g h t . Page 107 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n o v e r v i e w ju s t t o g iv e – ju s t s o w e c a n u n d e r s t a n d t h a t e n v ir o n m e n t , i t m ig h t n o t b e t h e s a m e a s a n o t h e r e n v ir o n m e n t w e ’ v e e x p l o r e d p r e v io u s ly. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n , t o a s s i s t. L e t m e ju s t s u m m a r is e i t lik e t h is A n a c c o u n t in g o ffi c e r s h o u l d a p p o i n t a C F O , with relevant experience at a s e n io r m a n a g e m e n t le v e l a n d to d e m o n s t r a t e c a p a c it y t o in t e r p r e t , a n a n a ly s e a n d p r e s e n t c o m p le x 10 in f o r m a ti o n , m a n a g e w o r k i n g c a p i t a l , a s s e ts a n d li a b i li t ie s a n d a ls o m e e t t h e r e p o r t in g r e q u ir e m e n ts , t h a t i s t h e m o n th ly r e p o r ts u n d e r th e P F M A , D O R A a n d a n n u a l fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n t , s o w h a t is h a p p e n i n g is t h a t t h e r e s p o n s i b il i ty o f t h e C F O is a ls o t o m a n a g e t h e b u d g e t m a n a g e r, b u t a ls o a t t h e s a m e t i m e t o l o o k a t t h e a s s e ts a n d to e n s u r e t h a t c o m p li a n c e i s a c t u a lly d o n e b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t s o t h e a ff a ir s o f a – t h e f in a n c ia l a ff a i r s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t is a c tu a l ly t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f the CFO. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I n th is s tr u c t u r e t h a t y o u ’v e m a p p e d o u t f o r u s w h a t i s t h e r e la t io n s h ip b e t w e e n th e H O D a n d t h e Pr e m ie r, a n d I 20 ask this only because w e ’v e had e v id e n c e p la c e d before th is C o m m i s s i o n t h a t a n u m b e r o f fu n c t io n s w e r e c e n tr a l is e d i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ffic e a n d h is o ff ic e is a s ta ff c o m p l e m e n t o f 6 0 0 p e o p le a n d ju s t t h a t o ffic e , s o h e l p u s u n d e r s ta n d t h e r e l a t io n s h i p th e n b e t w e e n t h e H O D in A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t a n d t h e P r e m ie r a n d i f n o t – w e ll l e t ’s s t a r t w i th t h e P r e m i e r. Page 108 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H O D ’s a r e a p p o i n t e d b y t h e Pr e m ie r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h a t is t h e r e p o r t in g f u n c ti o n fr o m t h e H O D t o t h e Pr e m i e r o r d o e s th e H O D g i v e h is o r h e r r e p o r ts to th e MEC? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Th e y g i v e th e ir r e p o r ts t o t h e M E C , u n l e s s r e q u e s te d t h e n t h e y c a n a l s o s e n d t h e r e p o r ts t o t h e Pr e m i e r v i a the MEC. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n t h e P r e m i e r g i v e a n in s t r u c t i o n t o t h e HOD? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e Pr e m i e r c a n g i v e a n i n s tr u c ti o n t o the MEC. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Under what circumstances? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : L e t ’s s a y i t ’s a – li k e if i t i s a t e c h n ic a l i s s u e l ik e f o r i n s t a n c e i f i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t t h e H O D n e e d t o in v e s t i g a t e a n d p r o v i d e a r e p o r t u r g e n tly t o t h e P r e m i e r t h e P r e m ie r c a n g o s t r a i g h t , b u t i t r e m a i n s t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f th a t H O D to i n f o r m the MEC. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n th e P r e m i e r in s t r u c t t h e H O D w h o t o c o n tr a c t w it h ? 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o , i t h a s t o . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m c o mi n g b a c k to t h is q u e s t i o n fr o m a d i ff e r e n t a n g l e , b u t l e t’s le a v e i t j u s t – c a n h e o r s h e in s t r u c t a n H O D w h o m t o c o n t r a c t o r tr a n s a c t w it h ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t ’s q u i t e a n i n t e r e s ti n g q u e s ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n , b u t e v e n i f y o u a s a n a c c o u n ti n g o ff ic e r y o u s til l h a v e t h e Page 109 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o s a y y e s I u n d e r s t a n d b u t t h is o n e i s n o t g o i n g t o w o r k o r I s t il l h a v e t o f o l lo w t h e f o ll o w i n g p r o c e s s e s , a n d y o u h a v e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o a ls o r e p o r t t o t h e Ex e c u ti v e A u t h o r i t y t o s a y th a t t h e r e is th is r e q u e s t , I s ti ll h a v e t o fo ll o w th is a n d t h a t a n d t h a t , i f y o u t h i n k t h a t i t m u s t b e t a k e n t o th e e x e c u tiv e y o u h a v e t h a t r e s p o n s i b i li ty. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B e c a u s e t h e Ac c o u n t i n g O ff ic e r is b o u n d b y th e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e P F M A . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : B e c a u s e t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff ic e r is b o u n d b y t h o s e p r o v is i o n s b u t a ls o t h e p r o v is i o n s d o e s n o t s t o p a n y 10 r e q u e s t i f it is fi n a n c i a l o r w h a t a s l o n g a s it is w r i t t e n d o w n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No, say that again, because I don’t think it is c o r r e c t , b u t ju s t r e p e a t t h a t, b e c a u s e I w il l i n t e r r o g a t e i t w i t h y o u a n d g iv e y o u a n e x a m p l e o f w h y I d o n ’ t t h i n k th a t s o u n d s r ig h t . DR TA N K I S I JANKI MASITENG: Ye s , what I am saying is . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : ( l a u g h in g ) I’ m s o r r y, I’ m s o r r y, i t c o m e s a c r o s s a s i f it is a t h r e a t to i m p l ic a te h i m . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: M y a p o l o g i e s , C h a i r m a n h e s a id t o m e I m u s t n o t c r o s s - e x a m in e h i m , I a m t r y i n g t o s m il e a s I a s k m y q u e s t io n s . 20 B u t I r e a lly a m c u r i o u s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , n o t h a t’s f i n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d I k n o w th a t h e h a s b e e n i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t, h e s t il l d o e s i t , h e h a s b e e n t h e r e a lo n g ti m e , a n d I a m r e a l ly j u s t t a p p i n g i n to t h a t i n fo r m a ti o n . D r M a s i t e n g y o u m u s t p le a s e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t I a m tr y i n g t o l e a r n a s m u c h a s I c a n f o r p u r p o s e s o f Page 110 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h e r e c o r d s o t h a t w e k n o w r o u g h l y w h a t – h o w t h e Fr e e S t a t e o p e r a t e d , c e r t a i n ly fr o m o n e p e r s p e c t iv e , I a m n o t s a y in g y o u k n o w everything. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n . Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h W h a t I w a s s a y i n g is i n t e r m s o f t h e P u b lic F in a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t y e s i t d o e s a ll o w t h e Ex e c u ti v e A u t h o r i ty, i n th is c a s e I a m r e f e r r i n g to t h e p o l i tic a l h e a d s , t h e y c a n g iv e i n s tr u c t io n s b u t i f th a t in s t r u c t i o n h a s g o t s o m e t h i n g t o d o w i t h f in a n c i a l c o m m i t m e n t s i t m u s t b e i n w r i ti n g a n d if i t i s g o in g t o r e s u l t i n to a n ir r e g u l a r it h a s t o b e 10 p r o p e r ly p a c k a g e d a n d n o w i t m u s t g o to N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y, t o P r o v i n c ia l a n d t o N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n f a c t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y i s i t c o r r e c t to s a y t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is t h a t a p a r t fr o m a s it u a ti o n w h e r e t h e i n s tr u c ti o n m u s t b e i n w r it i n g w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is t h a t a n y i n s tr u c ti o n m u s t – t h a t i s g iv e n b y th e E x e c u t iv e A u t h o r i ty t o t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ffi c e r o r H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t must be lawful? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d i f i t is n o t l a w f u l t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o r 20 A c c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r is u n d e r n o o b li g a ti o n t o c o m p ly w i th i t , d o y o u g o t h a t fa r o r d o y o u n o t g o t h a t f a r ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o , w h a t I a m s a y i n g is i f i t is n o t la w fu l a s a n a c c o u n t in g o ffic e r y o u h a v e t h a t r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o e n g a g e w i t h y o u r p o l i tic a l h e a d a n d s a y b u t t h e s e a r e t h e c h a ll e n g e s t h a t I s o r t o f r e a l is e , s o I w o n ’ t b e a b le t o e x e c u t e a s s u c h . Page 111 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, t h a n k s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: e x e c u ti o n or i m p l e m e n ta t io n B u t y o u t i e t h a t r e s p o n s i b i li ty i n t o of that d e c is i o n by the E x e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t w il l b e b e f o r e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s , s o r r y D r M a s i te n g , I a m t r y i n g to d r a w a d is ti n c t io n b e t w e e n a n i n s t r u c t i o n t h a t i s g iv e n t h a t y o u w il l d o t h is a n d d o t h is r i g h t n o w, a n d a n o ffi c i a l w h o p r e p a r e s d o c u m e n ta t io n o n i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m s o m e b o d y i n a u t h o r i ty, s o I a m tr y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d 10 y o u r e v i d e n c e . Ar e y o u s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e is a d i ff e r e n c e i n t h e a t t it u d e o f t h e o ffic i a l w h o g e ts a n i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m a n e x e c u ti n g a u t h o r i ty a n d t h a t o f a n o ffi c i a l , o n e o f th e e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r s w h o is g iv e n a n in s t r u c t i o n d o e s h e o r s h e h a v e t o e x e c u t e th a t in s tr u c ti o n o r n o t , I a m lo o k in g a t d i ff e r e n t l e v e ls o f o p e r a t i o n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , t h e r e w i ll b e m o s t c e r ta i n ly, b u t r e m e m b e r in g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t h o w i t w o r k s t h e Pr e m i e r ’s performance agreement informs that one of the MEC, the MEC inform that one of the H O D , t h e H O D ’s o n e i n f o r me d m i n e a n d m i n e i n f o r m s t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e r s , s o i t s o r t o f i n f il t r a te s d o w n , s o i f I g iv e a n 20 in s t r u c t i o n in y o u r p e r f o r m a n c e a g r e e m e n t, le t ’s s a y f o r i n s t a n c e a n a c c o u n t in g o ff ic e r i f I g i v e a C h i e f D ir e c t o r a n i n s tr u c t io n i n s id e t h e p e r f o r m a n c e a g r e e m e n t i t w i ll c l e a r l y s ti p u l a te t h a t o n e o f – th a t p e r s o n ’s r e s p o n s i b i li t y is t o s u p p o r t t h e a c c o u n ti n g o ffi c e r i n a c h ie v i n g t h e f o l lo w in g , s o n o w w h a t y o u a r e a s k i n g a b o u t t h e e x t e n t a t w h ic h i t d e p e n d s fo r in s t a n c e o n t h e m a g n i tu d e , h e r e le t ’s s a y t h e in s t r u c t i o n i s Page 112 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t o i m p l e m e n t a o n e m il li o n p r o j e c t , i t is d i ff e r e n t fr o m a n i n s tr u c ti o n to s a y g o a n d i m p l e m e n t a 1 0 0 0 0 p r o j e c t f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e a n d th a t w il l b e d e l e g a t e d a s s u c h t o th e s e n i o r m a n a g e r s a n d t o d i ff e r e n t l e v e l s , t h a t ’s w h a t I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o C h a ir p e r s o n i f I w a s c le a r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f i n y o u r p o s i ti o n a s a C h i e f D ir e c t o r y o u g a v e a n e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r a n i n s tr u c t io n th a t t h e e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r is n o t h a p p y w i t h w o u l d q u e r y, w h a t d o e s t h a t e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r d o ? A t l e a s t C h a ir m a n a l lo w m e t o a s k a c o m p o u n d q u e s t io n , a n d I a s k t h i s q u e s t io n D r M a s it e n g , I h a v e h a d d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h y o u . 10 I a s k th is q u e s t io n i n t h e c o n t e x t o f w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h th e Vr e d e D a ir y p r o je c t. T h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r h a s g i v e n a n i n s tr u c t i o n to d o c e r t a i n t h i n g s , s o I d o n ’t w a n t to m is le a d y o u , I w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d w h e n o n e is u n d e r s o m e f o r m o f c o m p u l s i o n t o e x e c u te a n i n s tr u c ti o n a n d w h e n y o u c a n s a y I a m s o r r y I w i ll n o t d o i t, b e c a u s e I d o n o t t h i n k t h is is r i g h t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Th e – le t ’s t a k e fo r i n s t a n c e t h e in s t r u c t i o n t h a t c o m e s fr o m le t ’s s a y fr o m th e h e a d o f th e d e p a r t m e n t a n d a s a C h i e f D ir e c t o r I t h i n k I n e e d X , Y a n d Z , i t w il l r e m a in my r e s p o n s i b i li ty s o t h a t I d o n ’ t s e e th is o n e , I d o n ’ t s e e t h a t o n e , b u t i n in s t a n c e s w h e r e th e H O D i s s a y i n g I a m g iv i n g y o u a n i n s tr u c t io n a n d I 20 w a n t t h i s a n d t h is is t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t I h a v e g o t, y o u h a v e n o c h a n c e , y o u w i ll h a v e to s c r u ti n is e th a t d o c u m e n t a n d c o m p ly, h e is n o t a s k in g y o u , h e is i n s tr u c ti n g y o u , h e is n o t s a y i n g d o y o u h a v e a n o p i n i o n h e r e , w h a t c a n w e d o , h e is i n s tr u c ti n g y o u t o a s s is t . O ff ic i a l p e r f o r m a n c e a g r e e m e n t a ls o s a y s I w i ll a s s is t , I w i ll s u p p o r t th e H O D i n e x e c u ti n g t h e f o l l o w in g . Page 113 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e l e t’s a s k t h e q u e s ti o n – l e t m e a s k th is , a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n i n th e A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t D e p a r t m e n t w h e n m a y a s u b o r d i n a t e r e fu s e to c a r r y o u t a n i n s tr u c ti o n g iv e n b y h i s o r h e r s u p e r io r, o r is t h e p o s i t io n t h a t s u b o r d i n a te s a r e a l w a y s o b l ig e d to c a r r y o u t in s tr u c ti o n s g i v e n to t h e m b y t h e ir superiors? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t i s t h e s i tu a ti o n o f o b l i g i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 S o is y o u r a n s w e r t h a t a t le a s t i n th a t d e p a r t m e n t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d is t h a t a s u b o r d i n a te w h o g e ts a n in s tr u c ti o n fr o m h i s o r h e r s u p e r i o r is a l w a y s o b l ig e d t o c a r r y i t o u t e v e n i f t h e i n s tr u c t io n i s unlawful? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o , i f y o u f e e l C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t t h i s is a n u n l a w f u l a n d y o u p r o v i d e r e a s o n s t h e n y o u c a n d o it i n w r i ti n g a n d s a y b u t I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d t h i s p a r t b u t in t h is in s ta n c e w h e r e a n a c c o u n t in g o ffi c e r i s s a y i n g I h a v e l o o k e d a t a ll t h e o t h e r n e w s , I a m c o n v i n c e d , I a m h a p p y, I a m in s tr u c ti n g y o u to c o m p i le t h i s fo r m e o r to d o t h i s f o r m e i t is a n i s s u e o f o b li g i n g , y o u h a v e to o b l ig e . CHAIRPERSON: 20 N o w I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t o m e a n t h a t w h e r e a s a s u b o r d i n a te y o u a r e o f th e v ie w th a t th e i n s tr u c t io n g i v e n to y o u b y y o u r s u p e r i o r is u n l a w fu l a n d y o u e x p r e s s t h a t o p i n i o n t o y o u r s u p e r i o r b u t h e i n s i s t s th a t a s f a r a s h e o r s h e i s c o n c e r n e d t h e in s t r u c t i o n is l a w f u l y o u a s a s u b o r d i n a t e b e c o m e o b l ig e d t o c a r r y o u t t h is i n s tr u c t io n t h a t y o u b e l ie v e t o b e u n l a w f u l b e c a u s e y o u r s u p e r i o r t h i n k s d i ff e r e n t ly, i s t h a t c o r r e c t? Page 114 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : L e t m e p u t i t lik e t h is C h a ir p e r s o n , le t ’s s a y w h a t I’ m s a y i n g is i f y o u f e e l , l e t’s s e e f o r i n s t a n c e t h e r e is n o t h i n g , i t’s j u s t a n i n s tr u c ti o n t o s a y g o a n d d o X , Y a n d Z a n d y o u f e e l t h a t m o m e n t I a m n o t c o m f o r ta b l e y o u h a v e a l l t h e r i g h ts to p u t i t d o w n a n d s a y b u t I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d , b u t i n s t a n c e s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , l e t ’s l e a v e o u t y o u d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d , y o u d o understand. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t th e i n s t r u c t i o n s a y s y o u m u s t d o . 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , t h e n y o u c a n p u t i t i n w r i ti n g a n d s a y b u t I d o n ’ t a g r e e w i th w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g I m u s t d o b e c a u s e th e r e is n o t h i n g , b u t I a m s a y in g i n s t a n c e s w h e r e l e t ’s s a y t h e a c c o u n ti n g o ffic e r f o r i n s t a n c e is s a y i n g I a m fr o m t h i s m e e ti n g , I a m fr o m t h a t a n d w h a t w e m u s t d o i s th is o n e . In f a c t w h a t I a m g o i n g t o d o is th is , I a m in s t r u c t i n g y o u t o a s s is t m e w i t h X , Y a n d Z , y o u a r e o b li g e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w a r e y o u o b l ig e d a s a s u b o r d i n a t e t o a s s is t h i m o r h e r e v e n if w h a t h e w a n ts t o d o o r s h e w a n t s t o d o a s fa r a s y o u a r e 20 c o n c e r n e d is u n la w f u l , a s lo n g a s h e s a y s y o u m u s t a s s i s t m e , I w a n t t h is to b e d o n e , a r e y o u o b li g e d to c o n ti n u e to a s s is t h i m t o d o s o m e t h i n g u n l a w fu l? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t o b l ig e d ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u a r e n o t o b l ig e d i n th a t c a s e . Page 115 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, I j u s t w a n te d to u n d e r s ta n d . D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n , b u t i n th a t in s t a n c e w h a t g o e s t h r o u g h y o u r m i n d a s a n o ff ic ia l is w h e t h e r y o u a r e m e e ti n g y o u r K P I ’s , y o u r k e y p e r fo r m a n c e i n d ic a t o r s , w h ic h y o u h a v e a ls o a n n e x e d t o y o u r p a p e r s , b e c a u s e y o u r k e y p e r fo r m a n c e in d ic a t o r s t e ll y o u y o u ’v e g o t to s u p p o r t , a s a C h i e f D ir e c t o r y o u m u s t s u p p o r t t h e HOD. 10 D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Am I right? D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: what then goes through Ye s . Ye s , y e s . B u t b a c k t o t h e C h a ir m a n ’s q u e s ti o n , your mi n d , you know what your key p e r f o r m a n c e i n d ic a to r s a r e , b u t y o u a ls o k n o w t h a t w h a t y o u a r e b e i n g a s k e d to d o c o u ld – is i r r e g u l a r, y o u k n o w th e r e fo r e t h a t i f y o u d o n ’ t p e r f o r m i n t e r m s o f y o u r k e y p e r f o r m a n c e in d ic a to r s y o u c o u l d lo s e y o u r jo b . W h a t d o y o u d o a s a n o ffic ia l ? T h i s is a p e r e n n ia l p r o b l e m in g o v e r n m e n t , a ll le v e ls o f g o v e r n m e n t . 20 D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : J a . W h a t is h a p p e n in g C h a ir p e r s o n is t h a t t h e r e a r e le v e ls I t h i n k t h a t i s w h e r e w e h a v e to s t a r t , i n in s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e a c c o u n ti n g o ffi c e r i s c l e a r a n d i s s a y i n g I w i ll report th is as an ir r e g u l a r if I remember th o s e remains the r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e H O D . T h e H O D is n o t a s k in g y o u f o r y o u r o p in io n , t h e H O D i s s a y i n g y o u h a v e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o t a k e t h i s i n s tr u c ti o n o f Page 116 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ju s t c o m p i li n g t h is fo r m e , I a m n o t a s k i n g y o u y o u r o p i n i o n a n d w h a t e v e r, I a m n o w i n s tr u c t in g y o u to c o m p i le a n d t h e n i f y o u s a y n o i t m i g h t c a u s e a c h a l l e n g e b e c a u s e i t i s a n in s tr u c ti o n , h e is n o t a s k i n g y o u r o p i n io n , h e is in s tr u c ti n g y o u , h e h a s ta k e n a ll t h e r is k , h e h a s lo o k e d a t a ll th e r is k a n d h e h a s a c c e p te d t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s t h e r e f o r e y o u r ta s k i s j u s t t o c o m p il e o r t o s u b m i t t o t h e A c c o u n ti n g O ffic e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y b e t h a t w e w i ll m a k e m o r e p r o g r e s s i f w e g o to t h e s p e c if ic s t h a n t h e g e n e r a l . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a ir m a n th is is w h e r e w e a r e r ig h t n o w, s o if y o u lo o k a t t h e r e f e r e n c e f il e t h e f ir s t o n e p a g e 1 3 1 3 C h a ir m a n I t h i n k s h o u ld b e I k n o w t h e r e ’s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t u n d e r A ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t’s u n d e r D C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k – I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d A a n d B , y o u s a i d A a n d D. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o r r y C h a i r ma n my c o l le a g u e s a y s i t is e a s i e r f o r u s to g o to p a g e 8 7 o f D r M a s i t e n g ’s a ffi d a v i t , y o u w il l fi n d 20 the same document. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d i t is e a s i e r to h a n d l e h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: What page? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 8 7 C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 117 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I t is l a b e l l e d A n n e x u r e F. Dr Masiteng p a g e 8 7 t o 8 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it o f y o u r p a p e r s d e a l w it h t h e s u b m is s io n y o u m a d e o r le t m e r e p h r a s e t h a t, d e a l w it h th e s u b m i s s i o n t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r a te D is tr ic t S e r v ic e s m a d e w i th r e s p e c t t o t h e p a r t n e r s h i p t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a s c o n t e m p la t in g e n t e r in g in t o w i t h Es t in a . F ir s t w e r e a l ly s h o u l d g o to p a g e 8 9 w h e r e y o u h a v e t h r e e b l o c k s t h a t h a v e v a r io u s d ir e c t iv e s , t h e f ir s t s a y s s u b m it t e d b y, t h e s e c o n d s a y s r e c o m m e n d e d , t h e t h ir d s a y s a p p r o v e d . M a y b e w e s h o u l d t a k e th is , b r e a k it d o w n s l o w ly a n d s ta r t o ff w i t h s u b m i t te d b y y o u r n a m e a p p e a r s 10 h e r e , p l e a s e j u s t e x p l a in t o th e C h a ir m a n w h e t h e r t h a t i s y o u r s i g n a t u r e or not. D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o t h a t i s n o t my s i g n a t u r e . A n d te ll t h e C h a ir m a n w h y i t i s n o t s ig n a tu r e , w h e r e – w h y y o u d id n o t s i g n t h i s d o c u m e n t ? D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I d i d n o t s i g n t h e s u b m is s io n C h a i r b e c a u s e I b e li e v e t h a t a t t h a t ti m e I w a s n o t e v e n a r o u n d a n d a ls o t h e r e w a s a s t a g e I th in k o n th e 2 6 t h i t i s s i g n e d o n th e 2 6 t h , I d o n ’ t think I was around. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , a n d t h e r e w a s a s t a g e b u t I t h i n k w e w i ll d e a l w i t h th a t o n e , t h e r e w a s a s t a g e I w a s o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y. CHAIRPERSON: W h o s e s ig n a tu r e a p p e a r s a b o v e y o u r n a m e i n t h a t block? D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h is o n e i s t h e s i g n a t u r e o f M r Page 118 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 S a r e l v a n S c h a l k w y k w h o i s t h e D is tr ic t D ir e c t o r f o r G a r ie p . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s h e o n e o f th e p e o p l e w h o r e p o r t e d t o y o u a t t h e ti m e ? D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s h e is th e o n e w h o r e p o r t e d t o m e , I t h in k h e s i g n e d a s a n A c t i n g o r w h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o w e ’r e lo o k in g a t th e 2 6 t h o f w h i c h m o n th a n d w h ic h y e a r ? D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It is th e 2 6 t h o f 0 5 / . 2 0 1 2 . Now what was submitted on the 26th of May 2012, so we go back to page 87, can you just walk the Chairman t h r o u g h w h a t t h i s d o c u m e n t is ? D R TA N B K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W h a t w a s s u b mi t t e d o n t h a t d a t e t h e p u r p o s e is t o o b t a i n a p p r o v a l to a c c e p t t h e p r o p o s a l fr o m E s t in a w i t h r e g a r d to t h e Vr e d e i n te g r a te d D a ir y P r o je c t a n d s e c o n d ly to e n t e r in t o a p a r tn e r s h ip w i th E s t i n a to i m p le m e n t a n i n te g r a t e d d a i r y p r o j e c t in Vr e d e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s , n o w I a c c e p t th a t y o u w e r e tr a v e l li n g a t t h i s p o i n t i n ti m e a n d y o u h a v e a n n e x e d to y o u r p a p e r s y o u r p a s s p o r t 20 d e t a i ls , C h a ir m a n w e a r e g o i n g t o l o o k a t t h e m b e c a u s e I th in k i t ’s c o r r e c t , th e r e a s o n th e y a r e a n n e x e d w a s b e c a u s e h e w a s tr a v e ll in g i n C h i n a , i f I m ig h t j u s t m a k e th a t s u b m i s s i o n . P a g e 7 4 h a s t h e p a s s p o r t p ic t u r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o I t h i n k t h e C o m m i s s io n c a n a c c e p t Page 119 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C h a ir m a n i f i t m a k e s s e n s e to y o u th a t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a f te r a ll h e d i d n ’ t s i g n t h e d o c u m e n t , ja . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: H e d id n ’t s i g n i t a n d t h e r e a s o n w a s h e w a s tr a v e l li n g in C h in a , s o I th in k in s t e a d o f l e a d i n g th a t e v id e n c e I t h i n k th e C h a ir m a n is h a p p y t o a c c e p t th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h a t ’s f in e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t I w o u l d li k e y o u t h e n to t e l l t h e C h a ir m a n w h a t y o u k n e w a b o u t t h e p r o j e c t a n d w h e n I s a y t h i s p a r t ic u l a r p r o je c t it is c a l le d h e r e th e Vr e d e I n t e g r a te d D a i r y Pr o je c t b e f o r e y o u l e f t f o r 10 y o u r tr ip a b r o a d fir s t a n d t h e n w h e n y o u r e t u r n e d fr o m y o u r t r i p abroad? C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s G c a b a s h e b e f o r e w e g e t th e r e . Yo u – i f w e g o b a c k t o t h a t b l o c k w h ic h h a s g o t y o u r s i g n a t u r e D o c t o r M a s i t e n g t h e p e r s o n w h o s ig n e d t h e r e a p p e a r s t o h a v e s i g n e d o n y o u r b e h a lf p p a n d y o u r n a m e w a s p u t th e r e . T h a t g i v e s t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t y o u h a d a u t h o r i s e d th a t p e r s o n to s i g n o n y o u r b e h a l f o t h e r w i s e if h e o r s h e w a s s ig n in g a s t h e a c t i n g C h i e f D ir e c to r in y o u r p o s it i o n o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d th a t h e o r s h e w o u l d p u t – w o u ld h a v e p u t h e r n a m e o r h i s n a m e a n d w r i t t e n A c t in g C h i e f D ir e c to r D is tr i c t S e r v ic e s o r s o m e t h in g 20 t o t h a t e ffe c t. D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t s t o m a k e a b o u t w h a t – w h a t o n e m a k e s o f th a t s i g n a t u r e a n d w h a t is w r it t e n i n t h a t b l o c k ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir p e r s o n . I t h i n k t h a t is w h y in m y a ff id a v it I h a v e in d i c a t e d th a t I h a v e n e v e r a u t h o r i s e d t h e p e r s o n w h o s ig n e d t h e r e to s i g n o n m y behalf. Page 120 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A n d w h e n y o u – w h e n y o u le f t a n d y o u tr a v e ll e d y o u h a d n o t b e e n r e q u e s t e d to p u t to g e th e r th is document? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o n o t a t a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Can I take you to page 88 just to add to what t h e C h a ir m a n h a s ju s t a s k e d y o u . Under point 6 you have a heading P a r t ie s C o n s u l t e d t h e H O D , t h e C F O , th e C h ie f D ir e c t o r D is tr ic t S e r v ic e s a n d th e D is tr ic t D ir e c to r. N o w y o u a t t h e ti m e w e r e t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r D i s t r ic t S e r v ic e s d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t y o u w e r e n o t c o n s u l t e d ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I w a s n o t c o n s u l t e d C h a ir p e r s o n . I t h i n k t h a t is w h y e v e n th e o ff ic i a l h a s m a d e a s ta t e m e n t t o c o n fir m t h a t h e d i d n o t a c tu a lly c o n s u l t w i t h m e . H e w a s o n l y in s t r u c t e d t o c o m p il e the document and to sign. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: 20 O k a y b e f o r e w e le a v e th is d o c u m e n t tw o q u e s t io n s . N o w t h e s e t h r e e b l o c k s is th a t a s t a m p t h a t h a s y o u r n a m e s o n i t a n y w a y o r ju s t I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y y o u r n a m e w o u l d a p p e a r h e r e e v e n w h e n y o u a r e o u t o f o ff ic e . I s t h a t ju s t a p a r ti c u l a r s t a m p th a t y o u u s e i n th e o ffic e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t is a t e m p la t e C h a ir p e r s o n . I t h i n k i t is a t e m p la t e . I f it h a s b l o c k s l ik e t h is I t h i n k th e y u s e a t e m p la t e . Page 121 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 T h e r e i s a l w a y s a s o r t o f a t e m p la t e w i t h t h e d e t a i ls – m y d e t a i ls , t h e CFO and the HOD. I th i n k w h a t t h e y d i d t h e y j u s t u s e a – t h e y u s e d t h a t . S o i n s t e a d o f p u t t in g th e n a m e s o f t h e p e r s o n w h o a c t u a l ly w a s g o i n g t o s ig n th e y t h e n p u t m y n a m e . T h a t is w h y i n a ll f a i r n e s s h e in d i c a t e d th a t I a m s i g n in g o n b e h a l f a s a n a c ti n g C h i e f D ir e c to r a t t h a t ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s h e a c ti n g C h i e f D ir e c t o r ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s S i m e l e w a s a c t i n g C h ie f D ir e c t o r a t t h a t t i m e C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t is w h a t h e s h o u l d h a v e d i s c l o s e d . H e s h o u ld n o t h a v e p u t y o u r n a m e t h e r e if h e w a s n o t s ig n i n g o n y o u r b e h a l f . H e s h o u l d h a v e p u t h is o w n n a m e a n d i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e w a s d o in g s o in h is c a p a c i ty a s a c ti n g C h ie f D ir e c t o r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e a s i t s ta n d s i t lo o k s li k e h e w a s s i g n i n g o n y o u r b e h a l f a n d t h e r e f o r e h e h a d a u t h o r it y fr o m y o u th a t h e c o u l d s u b m i t t h i s d o c u m e n t o n y o u r b e h a l f. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a i r p e r s o n I t h i n k e v e n t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r D is tr ic t S e r v ic e s w a s a c t u a l ly r e f e r r in g t o 20 t h e a c ti n g n o t n e c e s s a r i ly to m y s e l f . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll t h e r e m a y h a v e – I d o n o t k n o w y o u k n o w. T h o s e p e o p l e d o n o t – t h e y k n o w i f s o m e b o d y is a c ti n g y o u r e f e r t o t h e m a s a c t i n g C h ie f D ir e c t o r y o u d o n o t r e f e r to t h e m a s C h i e f D ir e c t o r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . Page 122 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : I f s o m e b o d y is a c t i n g H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t y o u d o n o t r e fe r t o t h e m a s H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t . I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e a r e p e o p le o f t h e r i g h t l e v e l t o a p p r e c i a t e t h o s e d is t in c t i o n s . J a a n y w a y o k a y. A lr i g h t. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Thanks. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : B u t I t h i n k a l s o C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u a l lo w m e . T h e n th e i s s u e w a s o n n u m b e r 7 . B e c a u s e e v e n if … CHAIRPERSON: Page 87. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h is o n e , p o in t n u m b e r 7 . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Page 88. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A u t h o r i ty f o r a p p r o v a l . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e s a m e p a g e 8 8 . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . S o if y o u l o o k a t t h a t e v e n i f t h is o n e f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e c a n s u b m it o r c o m p il e b u t h e h a s g o t n o a u t h o r i ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o y o u d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d D o c t o r M a s it e n g . T h e r e i s t h e a u t h o r i ty t o s u b m i t . T h e r e is th e a u t h o r i t y to r e c o m m e n d . T h e r e is 20 the authority to approve. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t n o t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e a p p r o v a l , t h e a u t h o r i ty t o a p p r o v e m ig h t v e s t w i t h t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t b u t i f y o u s u b m i t s o m e th in g th e f ir s t Page 123 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 q u e s t io n i s w h e th e r y o u a r e t h e r ig h t p e r s o n t o s u b m it t h a t t h i n g . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O h y e s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u h a v e a u th o r i ty to s u b m i t t h a t t h i n g ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : To s u b m i t th a t y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Because when you submit it you associate yourself w i t h th a t th i n g . S o y o u r n a m e h e r e is b e i n g a s s o c ia t e d w i th a p r o p o s a l . I t s u g g e s ts t h a t y o u i n i ti a t e d th e a p p r o v a l . N o t t h a t y o u g r a n te d t h e a p p r o v a l b u t y o u i n i t i a t e d t h e a p p r o v a l b y s u b m i t ti n g t h i s d o c u m e n t . Yo u a s k e d s o m e b o d y t o r e c o m m e n d t h e y r e c o m m e n d e d . 10 s o m e b o d y t o a p p r o v e d th e y a p p r o v e d . Yo u a s k e d S o i t s a y s a ll t h is c o m e s fr o m you. Do you appreciate? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I te n d t o d i ff e r C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t is n o t h o w i t w o r k s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W h a t i s h a p p e n in g is I c a n in s t r u c t a person to submit. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t is m e w h o i s i n s tr u c ti n g a n y p e r s o n 20 t o s u b m i t to m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : B e c a u s e I c a n n o t b e a r e f e r e e a n d a p l a y e r. I c a n n o t s u b mi t t o my s e l f. I c a n n o t r e c o m m e n d t o m y s e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : But in terms of the government Page 124 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 processes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ev e r y t h i n g th a t is s u b m it t e d o r – y e s s u b m i tt e d i t m u s t fir s t g o t o t h e C F O i f i t h a s g o t fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : S o t h a t i s a l w a y s t h e c a s e a n d t h a t i s w h a t i s a lw a y s h a p p e n i n g i n t h e g o v e r n m e n t s e c to r. CHAIRPERSON: No but if you – if you prepare a document and you s u b m i t i t y o u a r e a s s o c i a ti n g y o u r s e l f w i th it . 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s I a g r e e t h e r e ja . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t I a m ta lk in g a b o u t. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I a g r e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e a s s o c i a ti n g y o u r s e l f w i t h i t b e c a u s e if y o u d o n o t s u b m i t i t t h e r e w il l b e n o o c c a s io n f o r a n y b o d y to r e c o m m e n d i t . T h e r e w i ll b e n o o c c a s i o n fo r t h e p e r s o n w h o m u s t a p p r o v e to a p p r o v e . S o y o u s u b m i t it y o u a r e s a y i n g t h is i s w h a t I t h i n k s h o u l d h a p p e n a n d t h e n I a m a s k in g m y i m m e d ia t e s e n i o r t o r e c o m m e n d o r w h o e v e r is s u p p o s e d t o r e c o m m e n d . A n d u l ti m a t e l y t h e a p p r o v in g a u th o r it y t o a ls o to approve. 20 S o y o u h a v e th e p e r s o n w h o s u b m i ts th e p r o p o s a l . Yo u h a v e s o m e b o d y w h o r e c o m m e n d s t h a t t h e p r o p o s a l b e a p p r o v e d . Yo u h a v e s o m e b o d y w h o a c tu a lly p r o v i d e s th e a p p r o v a l . But the person w h o p r o v i d e s th e a p p r o v a l c a n s a y … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s a t t h e e n d o f t h e q u e u e . S o a n d s o s u b mi t t e d t h is p r o p o s a l a n d I a m e n t i tl e d t o t h i n k t h a t h e l o o k e d a t i t p r o p e r ly a n d Page 125 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 h e f o r m u l a te d t h e p r o p o s a l a n d s u b mi t t e d i t to s o a n d s o b e c a u s e h e w a s th i n k i n g th a t it s h o u l d b e a p p r o v e d . A n d s o a n d s o lo o k e d a t i t a n d recommended it. approved. A n d I a s th e p e r s o n w i t h a u t h o r i t y t o a p p r o v e t h e n S o m e b o d y th a t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n s u b m it t e d b y s o m e b o d y e ls e a n d r e c o m m e n d e d b y s o m e b o d y e l s e . So on the face of it it a s s o c i a t e s t h e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n w h o s u b m i tt e d t h e p r o p o s a l w it h th e p r o p o s a l . Th a t is w h y i t is i m p o r t a n t th a t if y o u h a v e g o t n o t h i n g to d o w i t h i t i t s h o u ld n o t r e f le c t y o u r n a m e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s h o u l d r e fl e c t t h e p e r s o n – t h e n a m e o f t h e p e r s o n w h o i s s u b m i t ti n g i t . O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n c a n I p r o te c t m y w i t n e s s ? CHAIRPERSON: Protect your witness. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: o ffic e r d id that he A n d s u g g e s t C h a ir m a n t h a t i f a n a c c o u n t i n g or she would simply d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t c a m e u p fr o m t h e b o t t o m . be rubberstamping T h a t is th e fir s t p o i n t . B u t t h e s e c o n d o n e is th e m o r e i m p o r ta n t o n e C h a ir m a n . T h e fa c t s a s s e t o u t i n t h is w i t n e s s ’ a ffi d a v it s p e a k to p e c u li a r c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h a t y o u m ig h t w a n t t o c o n s i d e r to b e e x c e p ti o n a l . 20 CHAIRPERSON: No, no. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: G i v e n th e f r a m e , th e l e g a l fr a m e t h a t y o u have set out. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o w h a t I a m s a y i n g is g e n e r a l . I t is g e n e r a l. a m ta lk i n g g e n e r a l . I B u t – b u t t h e f ir s t p o i n t y o u r a is e d i s n o t r e a ll y c o r r e c t . A n a p p r o v in g a u th o r i ty w h o s a y s I a p p r o v e d t h i s a f te r it w a s Page 126 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 r e c o m m e n d e d b y s o a n d s o w h o g o t i t fr o m s o a n d s o s u b m it t e d d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r ily r u b b e r s ta m p . B u t t h a t p e r s o n i s s i m p ly s a y i n g I j u s t d i d not do it on my own. I t h a d g o n e th r o u g h c e r t a in s t a g e s a n d t h o s e p e o p l e i n c lu d i n g s o m e b o d y w h o s e d u ty is t o a p p ly h is o r h e r m i n d t o i t concluded that it should – approval should be recommended. So if I h a v e m a d e a n y m is ta k e i n a p p r o v in g I d id n o t j u s t d o i t o n my o w n t h e r e w e r e d i ff e r e n t s t a g e s . O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I a c c e p t t h a t C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Okay alright. Thank you. 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: B u t c a n w e t h e n c o m e t o t h a t e x c e p ti o n a l c ir c u m s ta n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t c a n I a ls o D o c t o r M a s i t e n g a s y o u e x p l a i n y o u r e x c e p t i o n a l c i r c u ms t a n c e s I a c tu a lly w a n t t o a s k y o u to t u r n to t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u i n fa c t s i g n e d . Th is o n e w a s s i g n e d b y s o m e b o d y e ls e a n d th a t d o c u m e n t C h a ir m a n w e w i ll fi n d a t B u n d l e A a n d t h e s ig n a tu r e I th i n k is o n p a g e 4 o f B u n d l e a r e fe r e n c e – r e f e r e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s s t ic k t o r e f e r e n c e b u n d le A . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : R e fe r e n c e b u n d l e A C h a ir m a n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h is u n d e r E x h i b i t H H . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t it . W h a t p a g e ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d t h e n th e s i g n a t u r e t h a t w e a r e g o i n g to lo o k a t is o n p a g e 4 C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: 4. Page 127 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n p a g e 5 C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: D o c t o r M a s i t e n g a r e y o u th e r e ? I t i s p a g e 5 , p a g in a t e d p a g e 5 r i g h t a t t h e t o p . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o I d o n o t t h i n k I h a v e t h a t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : O h th e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e … CHAIRPERSON: H e m ig h t n o t b e h a v i n g t h e r i g h t b u n d l e . Look for bundle – another bundle. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: 10 I t is n o t y o u r – n o t y o u r b u n d l e D o c t o r M a s i t e n g . R e fe r e n c e b u n d l e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : R e f e r e n c e b u n d l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s o m e b o d y s h o u ld o r i e n ta t e h i m . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : R e fe r e n c e b u n d l e A . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y s o m e b o d y w il l c o m e a n d o r ie n t a t e y o u w h ic h o n e i s b u n d l e – w e ll t e l l h i m a b o u t o t h e r s a s w e ll s o y o u d o n o t h a v e t o g o t h e r e e a c h t i m e t h e r e i s a r e f e r e n c e t o a n o th e r b u n d l e . Let him k n o w w h i c h o n e s a n d w h e r e t o f i n d t h e o th e r s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d t h e n p l e a s e s w i tc h y o u r m ic r o p h o n e o n b e f o r e y o u – y o u g i v e y o u r a n s w e r s t h a n k y o u . S o w e a r e n o w l o o k in g 20 a t a d o c u m e n t th a t y o u i n f a c t s ig n e d . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d a g a in i t is ti t le d A p p r o v a l t o A c c e p t t h e P r o p o s a l fo r t h e E s t a b li s h m e n t o f I n t e g r a t e d D a i r y i n Vr e d e f r o m E s ti n a . Te r r i b l e E n g l is h b u t a n y w a y t h a t i s w h a t is w r i tt e n h e r e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . Page 128 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: P le a s e e x p l a i n w h a t th is d o c u m e n t i s t h a t y o u p r e p a r e d ? I t a k e it y o u p r e p a r e d i t b e c a u s e y o u r s i g n a t u r e is t h e r e a n d why you signed it? T h a t is t h e is s u e t h e C h a ir m a n r a is e s in t h e e x a m p l e h e g i v e s a n d t h i s is y o u r – y o u r s ig n a tu r e p l e a s e e x p la i n t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s ? DR TA N K I S I JANKI MASITENG: T h is document was a c tu a l ly a c c o m p a n i e d b y o th e r d o c u m e n t s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: P l e a s e te ll th e C h a ir m a n w h i c h o n e s i t is i m p o r t a n t? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t e l l u s w h a t t h e d o c u m e n t is fi r s t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : It w a s – this document was accompanied… CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o b e f o r e y o u c o m e t o w h a t a c c o m p a n i e d i t te ll m e w h a t th is d o c u m e n t i s t h a t y o u s i g n e d t h e o n e t h a t s t a r ts a t p a g e 2 ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O h y e s . T h is o n e i t is a n a p p r o v a l t o a c c e p t th e p r o p o s a l f o r t h e e s t a b lis h m e n t o f a n i n te g r a te d d a i r y – d a ir y in Vr e d e fr o m E s ti n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is a m e m o r a n d u m – i s it – i t is a m e m o r a n d u m , i s that correct? 20 I t i s a d o c u m e n t w h ic h y o u a d d r e s s e d t o M r M P T h a b e th e h e a d o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u lt u r e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o s e p u r p o s e w a s a s s t a te d th e r e i n : • To g e t th e H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t to a c c e p t th e p r o p o s a l fr o m E s ti n a / P a r a s w i t h r e g a r d t o th e e s t a b l is h m e n t o f in t e g r a t e d t h e o r y in Vr e d e a n d Page 129 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 • E n t e r i n to a m e m o r a n d u m o f a g r e e m e n t w i t h Es t in a / P a r a s t o i m p l e m e n t t h e i n t e g r a te d d a ir y p r o j e c t i n Vr e d e . S o th a t – t h o s e – t h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e d o c u m e n t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h e n y o u c a n c a r r y o n a n d t a lk m o r e o r te ll u s w h a t o t h e r d o c u m e n ts a c c o m p a n i e d i t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . T h is – t h is d o c u m e n t w a s a c tu a l ly p r e p a r e d i n li n e w i t h t h e s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n t s w h ic h w e r e b r o u g h t t o my a t te n ti o n b y t h e – b y t h e a c c o u n ti n g o ff ic e r. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : M r T h a b e th e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s M r T h a b e t h a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s t e ll u s w h a t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t w a s t h e a g r e e m e n t w h ic h h a s a lr e a d y b e e n s i g n e d b e t w e e n t h e – i t is a n a g r e e m e n t e n t e r e d i n t o b e t w e e n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e a n d E s t i n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is t h e d o c u m e n t … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W h ic h is 0 0 6 . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is t h e d o c u m e n t. J a p a g e 6 j a . O k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d th e r e a l s o i t w a s a c c o m p a n ie d b y 20 the project proposal. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W h i c h is 2 6 w h ic h w a s a lr e a d y s ig n e d . I f w e g o t o CHAIRPERSON: Page 26. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : P a g e 3 4 . Page 130 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: Oh not page 26? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : P a g e 3 4 i t w a s s i g n e d o n t h e 1 5 M a y 2 0 1 2 . T h e r e w a s a ls o … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. P a g e 2 0 – p a g e 3 4 i s t h e e n d o f a d o c u m e n t . W h e r e d o e s it s t a r t ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n . I t s t a r ts – i t s t a r ts o n p a g e 2 6 . CHAIRPERSON: J a s o – j a s o i t is th e s a m e d o c u m e n t t h a t I j u s t m e n ti o n e d w h e r e i t s t a r ts a n d y o u m e n t io n e d w h e r e it e n d s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t s t a r ts w i t h 2 6 i t e n d s w i t h … CHAIRPERSON: Page 34, at page 34. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 3 4 w it h t h e s i g n a t u r e a t th e b o t t o m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w h o s e s i g n a tu r e i s t h a t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Th is s ig n a tu r e i s – i t i s S a n je e v Gautam. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A n d a ls o … ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Do you know Mr Gautam? 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : there was an EXCO I d o n o t k n o w t h e p e r s o n . A n d a ls o memorandum. I do memorandum. CHAIRPERSON: EXCO me morandum. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a t is a m e m o r a n d u m … Page 131 of 217 not see the EXCO 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W h i c h s ig n e d o n t h e 1 3 t h i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n o f J u n e . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u s a y E X C O a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g t o th e P r o v i n c ia l Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e P r o v i n c ia l E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il memorandum. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: C h a ir m a n w i t h y o u r i n d u l g e n c e d o y o u m i n d v e r y m u c h p u t t in g t h e w i t n e s s ’s b u n d le o n o n e s i d e a n d t h e n t h e 10 r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e s t h a t w e w i ll b e r e f e r r i n g y o u t o o n t h e o t h e r. B e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s i t i s a l i tt l e e a s i e r f o r u s t o n a v ig a t e b e t w e e n t h e t w o a s w e q u ic k l y f in d d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: For you. CHAIRPERSON: N o – o k a y I a m q u i t e – I a m q u i te f in e . W h a t w o u ld y o u li k e u s t o d o ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE: S o I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o g o b a c k t o t h e w i t n e s s ’s b u n d l e . CHAIRPERSON: I have got it here in front of me yes. 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: And to go to page 86 of that bundle. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 8 6 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: 86. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T J M 8 6 . A n d th e r e s o l u ti o n t h a t D o c t o r M a s i t e n g r e f e r s t o i s o n th a t p a g e 8 6 . Page 132 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: Okay I am at 86. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s th a t t h e E X C O m e m o r a n d u m th a t y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h is i s t h e E X C O m e m o r a n d u m I a m r e fe r r i n g t o w h ic h w a s b r o u g h t t o m y a t t e n ti o n b y th e a c c o u n t in g o ffi c e r t o g e th e r w i t h th e s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h e r e w e r e th r e e d o c u m e n ts th a t w e r e g iv e n to you? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h a t w a s t h e a g r e e m e n t w h i c h w a s a lr e a d y s ig n e d . T h e p r o p o s a l w h i c h w a s s ig n e d b y M r G a u t a m D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A n d t h e n t h i s r e s o l u ti o n o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s th e r e w a s a ls o a p r o f il e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Can I ask you then to look at your bundle. Yo u h a v e a c t u a ll y i n c l u d e d t h e s e d o c u m e n t s in y o u r b u n d l e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : D o c t o r M a s it e n g . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: S o i f y o u lo o k a t p a g e 8 3 o f y o u r b u n d le TJ M 8 3 y o u w i ll fi n d t h e c o m p a n y p r o f il e . 8 3 h a s t h e c o m p a n y p r o fi l e . To p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 8 3 . Ye s , y e s , y e s . Page 133 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: And then if you look at…. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is t h e E s ti n a C o m p a n y Pr o fi l e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s t h a t w i ll b e Es t in a C o m p a n y P r o f il e . C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m p a n y Pr o fi le . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u h a d t h i s d o c u m e n t a s w e l l. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C a n I a s k y o u t o l o o k a t p a g e 7 5 a g a i n TJ M y o u r w i tn e s s b u n d l e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 7 5 y e s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s t h a t i s t h e p r o j e c t p r o p o s a l . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t is t h e p r o je c t p r o p o s a l . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T h a t y o u h a v e j u s t p o i n te d t h e C h a ir m a n t o b u t w e f o u n d i t i n t h e o th e r fi l e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: M a y b e w e s h o u ld s ta y w i th t h is f il e fo r n o w C h a ir m a n ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h is is t h e o n e s ig n e d b y G a u t u m o n t h e 1 5 May 2012. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: So it was three or was it four supporting documents? Page 134 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : F o u r s u p p o r t i n g d o c u m e n t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. So it was the agreement between the D e p a r t m e n t a n d E s ti n a a n d t h a t – t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s a lr e a d y s i g n e d D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s t h e p r o p o s a l i t w a s a lr e a d y s i g n e d . I t w a s th e E X C O R e s o lu t io n a n d th e n i t w a s t h e E s ti n a C o m p a n y Pr o fi l e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : P r o f il e y e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o t h e s e a r e t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e b e f o r e you? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h e n y o u s ig n e d ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: That submission. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: N o w t h e q u e s t io n t h e C h a ir m a n h a s b e e n a s k in g is – D id y o u a p p l y y o u r m i n d to w h a t y o u w e r e s u b m i t ti n g t o th e 20 C F O fo r h e r to r e c o m m e n d to t h e H O D ? CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe we should … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : J a . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w e s h o u ld s a y h o w d id y o u – h o w d i d i t c o m e a b o u t t h a t y o u w e r e g i v e n th is a n d y o u u l ti m a t e l y s i g n e d th e d o c u m e n t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 135 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M i c r o p h o n e , m ic r o p h o n e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t h i n k – y e s C h a ir p e r s o n . T h is b r i n g s u s to t h e p o i n t th a t a ll a lo n g i f y o u l o o k a t a l l t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n s I w a s n o t p a r t . I o n l y b e c a m e p a r t o n t h e – o n t h is d a t e a n d t h e r e a s o n b e i n g t h e r e w a s a s ta g e I w a s o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y fo r a p e r io d o f a m o n t h . B e c a u s e I le f t o n t h e 9 t h I c a m e b a c k o n t h e 6 t h . N o w w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h a t o n m y a r r iv a l t h e r e w a s n o w t h is d o c u m e n ta t io n s w h ic h th e H O D b r o u g h t t o m y a t te n ti o n a n d s a id : L o o k a lr e a d y th e r e is a n E X C O o n t h is m a t t e r a lr e a d y I h a v e s i g n e d a n a g r e e m e n t , a lr e a d y th e r e i s th is 10 project proposal that has been developed. I a m d e v ia t in g b u t a t t h a t ti m e i t d i d n o t c o m e o u t v e r y c l e a r t h a t h e is d e v i a t i n g t o i m p l e m e n t t h is p r o je c t . H e j u s t s a i d c o m p il e f o r m e I a m a c c e p ti n g t h e a g r e e m e n t . I a m a c c e p t in g t h e p r o p o s a l fr o m t h e s e p e o p l e I a m m o v i n g w it h th e m . CHAIRPERSON: A n d d e v i a ti n g i n th is c o n t e x t d i d i t m e a n d e v i a ti n g fr o m p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s h e w a s v e r y c l e a r t o s a y I a m d e v i a ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e y a r e b r i n g i n g m o n e y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W e a r e a l s o g o in g t o b r in g m o n e y t h e r e is n o a n y o t h e r c o m p a n y w h i c h is p r e p a r e d to b r in g R 2 0 0 m i lli o n . I h a v e a lr e a d y p r e s e n te d i t t o E X C O I a m d e v i a ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . Page 136 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: So – so he made it clear to you? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H e m a k e it v e r y c l e a r. CHAIRPERSON: T h a t t h is w a s a c a s e w h e r e h e w a s d e v ia t in g f r o m p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s d e li b e r a te ly. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e fo r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n h e b e li e v e d i t w a s ju s t i fi e d t o d o s o . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o t h e e v i d e n c e – y o u r e v id e n c e is t h e H O D c a n n o t s u b mi t t o h i ms e lf . T h e s u b m i s s i o n s t a r ts b e l o w h i m . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d th a t is w h a t y o u w e r e a s k e d t o d o s i m p l y t o p r e p a r e a s u b m is s i o n o n t h e b a s is o f d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e r e g iv e n to you? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: D o I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c tly to s a y t h a t i n a d d it i o n y o u r e c o g n i s e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a d e v ia t io n a t p l a y i n t h e s u b m is s io n t h a t y o u w e r e m a k i n g . D id y o u r e c o g n is e t h a t o r w e r e y o u 20 s i m p l y p u t ti n g d o c u m e n ts to g e t h e r ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : No. I f y o u lo o k a t th is C h a ir p e r s o n t h is d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s d e v e l o p e d i t w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly r e p la c e d b y t h e o th e r. I f y o u l o o k a t th is o n e . T h is o n e is s i m il a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I a m s o r r y – w h ic h o n e ? Yo u a r e p o i n ti n g t o w h a t page? Page 137 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e 0 2 . T h e 0 2 . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Th e o n e s i g n e d b y – w h a t d i d y o u s a y i t w a s S c h a lk w y k ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s b e c a u s e I w a s n o t a w a r e o f t h a t o n e w h ic h w a s s i g n e d o n t h e 2 6 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is t h e o n e a t 2 o f r e f e r e n c e b u n d l e A . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t is th e … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u w il l a ls o f in d i t a t p a g e 8 9 C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: TJM89. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I w i ll ju s t s tic k – b e c a u s e h e i s u s i n g 2 I w i ll j u s t s t ic k t o t h a t o n e ja . F o r n o w j a . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o th is is t h e d o c u m e n t th a t y o u s i g n e d a n d y o u w e r e m a k i n g a c e r t a i n p o in t a b o u t i t j u s t r e p e a t th a t p o in t j a . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s t h i s d o c u m e n t i f y o u l o o k a t i t th e 20 p u r p o s e i s t o o b t a i n a [ in d is ti n c t ] . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o r r y D o c t o r M a s it e n g m a y I in t e r r u p t y o u ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: I d o a p o lo g is e . Not this document so you m u s t i d e n t i fy t h e d o c u m e n t i t h e lp s w i t h t h e r e c o r d . S o ju s t s t a r t t h e a n s w e r a g a in p l e a s e b u t i d e n t i fy w h ic h d o c u m e n t y o u a r e lo o k i n g a t . Page 138 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O h 0 2 . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Page – the date on the document? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e d a t e o n t h e d o c u m e n t i t is 0 5 . 0 7 . 2 0 1 2 . It is n o w J u l y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d t h a t is t h e o n e w i t h y o u r s i g n a t u r e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h is i s t h e o n e w i th m y s ig n a t u r e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Thank you. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W e k n o w w h ic h d o c u m e n t y o u a r e lo o k i n g a t . 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o w t h e p o i n t I w a s m a k i n g is t h a t i f y o u l o o k a t t h i s d o c u m e n t a n d t h e o n e w h ic h w a s s u b m i t te d b y M r S c h a lk w y k t h e y a r e b a s ic a lly t h e s a m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : So I did not understand the in s t r u c t i o n p r o p e r ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : S o I s u b m i t te d th is d o c u m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H e t h e n b r o u g h t i t b a c k a n d s a id n o , 20 n o , n o t h is is n o t w h a t I w a n t . I w a n t t h i s – t h e s u b m i s s i o n t h a t y o u h a v e c o m p i l e d h a s a lr e a d y b e e n c o m p il e d w h a t I w a n t I a m d e v i a ti n g . N o w th e r e is a d o c u m e n t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r is t h e r e a s u b m is s i o n n o w. Yo u w i ll s e e i t w a s a l s o s i g n e d a t t h e s a m e d a y. T h a t is t h e o n e that he was very clear and he brought this one back and said, no, no t h is is n o t w h a t I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t . I a m d e v i a ti n g . Page 139 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w h e n y o u p r e p a r e d t h is o n e a t p a g e 2 w h i c h y o u s a y i s t h e s a m e a s th e o n e t h a t w a s s i g n e d b y s o m e b o d y e l s e h a d y o u seen the other one? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . CHAIRPERSON: T h e y j u s t h a p p e n e d to b e t h e s a m e b u t y o u h a d n o t seen the other one? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o I w a s n o t a w a r e o f t h a t o n e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : So I was under the impression that t h e o n l y – t h e t h i n g t h a t y o u c a n d o n o w i s to g iv e i n t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n s a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r t h . Yo u c a n a c c e p t , y o u c a n a ls o e n t e r i n to – b e c a u s e t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f a g r e e m e n t w a s a lr e a d y t h e r e . H e w a s v e r y c le a r t o m e t o s a y I a m a l s o e n t e r in g i n t o a m e m o r a n d u m o f a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e m . Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y c o n ti n u e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C a n w e th e n j u s t fo r o n e m in u t e l o o k a t t h a t r e s o l u ti o n ? T h e E X C O r e s o lu t io n . W h e r e is i t n o w ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s a t p a g e 8 6 o f t h e o th e r b u n d l e t h e o n e w i t h – with your statement I think. Am I correct? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir m a n . B e c a u s e w e h a v e b e e n t a lk i n g a b o u t le v e ls o f a u th o r it y a n d i n s tr u c ti o n s b e in g g iv e n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o i t is a t TJ M 8 6 . Page 140 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 8 6 o k a y t h a n k s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: TJM. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A lr i g h t t h a n k y o u . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u r d o c u m e n t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I h a v e g o t i t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h a t d id y o u u n d e r s ta n d o f t h is r e s o l u t i o n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e i n s tr u c ti o n y o u w e r e – b e e n g iv e n ? W h a t w a s th e i m p o r t ? W h y – w h a t w a s th e r e l e v a n c e o f t h is d o c u m e n t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a i r p e r s o n m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t 10 y e s y o u d o h a v e a n E X C O r e s o lu t io n a n d a ls o i t c o m e s a d ir e c tiv e b u t it d o e s n o t i m p ly t h a t y o u c a n ta k e it a t f a c e v a l u e a n d i m p l e m e n t it . S o t h a t i s w h y h e w a s s a y in g I a m d e v ia t in g t o e n s u r e t h a t I c o m p ly a ls o w i t h th e E X C O R e s o l u t i o n . I t w a s t h e E X C O R e s o l u t i o n i t i s v e r y c l e a r it is ta lk in g t o t h e v e r y s a m e Vr e d e I n t e g r a t e d D a ir y A g r i B u s i n e s s P r o je c t. S o my u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t a s a n a c c o u n t i n g o ffic e r h e is s a y in g – h e is s a y i n g I u n d e r s ta n d I – t h e r e i s t h is c o m m i t m e n t h o w e v e r I a m n o w f o l l o w i n g t h i s p r o c e s s a n d t h e p r o c e s s t h a t I a m f o ll o w i n g i s t o d e v ia t e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W a s t h e C F O i n t e r m s o f p o s i ti o n y o u r e q u a l 20 or your senior? J u s t i n t e r m s o f l e v e ls o f a u t h o r i ty. C F O t h e C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e C F O ’s a r e a p p o i n t e d in te r m s o f the PFMA even though we are equal with the – equal with the Chief D ir e c t o r s b u t t h e r e is a l w a y s t h a t s o r t o f a s e n i o r it y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: C o u l d s h e h a v e r e f u s e d to r e c o m m e n d w h a t Page 141 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 had been submitted by you … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A s C h i e f D ir e c t o r ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . Th a t is w h a t I w a s tr y i n g t o explain. T h a t th e – th a t t h e – if y o u s u b m i t t o – t o t h e p e r s o n w h o r e c o m m e n d s . T h e p e r s o n w h o r e c o m m e n d s c a n s a y n o . It h a p p e n s o n s e v e r a l o c c a s i o n s if y o u i n i ti a t e b u t if i n t h is c a s e i f it is a n i n s t r u c t i o n t h e C F O a ls o c a n s a y y e s i t is a n i n s tr u c t io n b u t l e t u s l o o k a t o th e r p r o c e s s e s a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r t h a n d w h e n s h e i s fi n e s h e c a n 10 r e c o m m e n d a n d th e n i t g o e s fo r a n a p p r o v a l . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W o u l d i t a ls o b e c o r r e c t t o s a y th a t t h e C F O h a s a g r e a t r e s p o n s ib il i ty t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s a r e c o m p l ie d w i t h ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e y a r e a c t u a l ly r e s i d i n g i n t h a t – i n that Chief Directorate. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: S o w h e r e t h e r e i s a d e v ia t io n i n t e r m s o f t h o s e p r o c e d u r e s a n d t h e Tr e a s u r y R e g u l a ti o n s i t r e a lly is t h e d u t y o f t h e C F O t o e n g a g e i n d is c u s s i o n s w i th t h e H O D t o d i s c u s s w h e t h e r t h a t d e v i a ti o n is r e g u l a r o r n o t ? 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: S o t h e C h ie f D i r e c t o r a t e ’s s u b m i s s i o n is n o t t h e la s t w o r d o n t h is ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o , n o t a t a ll . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y th e H O D c o u l d a ls o s a y I – I h a v e t a k e n a to t a l ly d i ff e r e n t d e c i s i o n h e r e ? Page 142 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t h a p p e n s o n s e v e r a l o c c a s i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: ADV LEAH GCABASHE: D e s p i te h a v i n g a n E x c o r e s o l u t i o n t h a t s a y s w e a p p r o v e o f t h is p r o je c t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : M y – m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s t h a t i f y o u a r e h a v in g a n E x c o r e s o l u ti o n i t is l ik e a c o u r t o r d e r b u t i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t y o u c a n t a k e a n E x c o r e s o l u ti o n a s i t is . I a lw a y s m a k e a n e x a m p l e o f a n Ex c o r e s o l u ti o n t h a t s a y s a p p o in t 5 0 u n d e r g r a d u a t e s . I c a n n o t s t a n d o u ts i d e h e r e o n t h e s tr e e t a n d t a k e 5 0 u n d e r g r a d u a t e s . I 10 s t il l h a v e to s a y lo o k a t th e is s u e s o f a g e n d a , t h e ir q u a li f ic a t i o n s a n d s o o n a n d s o fo r t h b u t it is a m u s t d o b e c a u s e i t is a n Ex c o r e s o l u ti o n . O t h e r w is e y o u a r e r e n d i n g t h e w h o l e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l u s e l e s s in s it t in g i n m e e t in g s a n d t a k i n g r e s o l u ti o n s b u t i f – t h e r e a r e o th e r p r o c e s s e s t h a t y o u c a n fo ll o w if y o u d o n o t a g r e e b u t i t is q u i t e a lo n g p r o c e s s b e c a u s e th is w a s d o n e i n th e p r e s e n c e o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c ils a n d in t h e p r e s e n c e o f t h e A c c o u n ti n g O ffic e r s – o ffic e r s i n most cases. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: So you … CHAIRPERSON: 20 W e l l – I a m s o r r y. S o – b u t t h e r e m a y b e a – th e r e m a y b e a s it u a ti o n w h e r e t h e E x c o r e s o l u ti o n t e ll s y o u a b o u t t h e u l ti m a t e o b j e c ti v e s a y s t h is is w h a t m u s t b e a c h ie v e d b u t i t d o e s n o t t e ll y o u a b o u t t h e h o w. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e h o w p a r t o f i t , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Then that is up to you to make sure that the manner in w h ic h y o u a c h ie v e t h a t o b j e c tiv e i s a la w fu l m a n n e r. Page 143 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o f c o u r s e y o u m a y w e l l h a v e a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e t h e Exco resolution either makes it clear as to the how … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O r i t m i g h t n o t m a k e i t c le a r b u t th e r e i s n o w a y o f a c h i e v in g t h a t o b j e c ti v e w i th o u t b r e a k in g t h e l a w. Yo u c o u ld h a v e th a t s i tu a ti o n a s w e l l i n th e o r y. 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I n t h e o r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i f - i f t h e p r o c e s s w h ic h y o u m u s t f o ll o w … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : In o r d e r t o a p p o i n t 5 0 g r a d u a te s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H u h - u h . C H A I R P E R S O N : R e q u ir e s t h r e e m o n th s … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e Ex c o r e s o lu t io n s a y s w i th i n o n e w e e k a p p o i n t 20 5 0 g r a d u a te s . T h e n i t p r e v e n ts y o u f r o m f o l lo w in g a la w f u l p r o c e d u r e i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o c o m p ly w it h i t . Is i t n o t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: N o w m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t P r e m i e r g a v e to th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r o n th e – t h e d e v ia t io n w e s p e a k o f Page 144 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h a t t h e C F O o u g h t t o h a v e i n te r r o g a te d m o r e c l o s e ly w a s t h a t t h e S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s a l lo w f o r a w i d e r a n g e o f e x c e p ti o n s . I t is n o t a c lo s e lis t a n d i t – i t s h o u ld n o t b e i n t e r p r e te d a s a c l o s e l is t . Th e c l o s e li s t b e i n g e m e r g e n c y s i tu a ti o n s s o le p r o v i d e r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: I d o n o t k n o w i f i t is a f a ir q u e s t i o n b u t d o y o u h a v e a v i e w o n th is b e c a u s e I k n o w y o u a r e n o t th e C F O b u t w o u l d t h is b e a c o r r e c t i n t e r p r e t a ti o n ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 r e g a r d h o n e s tl y C h a ir p e r s o n . I d o n o t w a n t t o – t o g u e s s in t h is I th i n k I w i ll b e s u b j e c ti n g m y s e l f t o s p e c u l a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: That is f in e . We – we are h o p in g M r T h a b e t h e w i ll c o m e i n a n y e v e n t a n d M s D l a m in i a n d w e c a n r a is e t h e s a m e is s u e s … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W i th t h e m ; b u t to t h e n g o b a c k t o t h e p r o g r a m 20 it s e l f o r t h e p r o j e c t i t s e l f. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: T h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t. Ex p l a in to t h e C h a ir m a n w h e r e th is p r o j e c t w a s lo c a t e d i n th e s tr a t e g y o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d h e r e I h a v e i n m in d I – I h a v e h e a r d o f t h e a d d r e s s b y t h e P r e m i e r in 2 0 1 2 th a t s p o k e t o t h is is s u e a n d t o t h e M o h u m a M o b u n g Page 145 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 in it i a t iv e o r s tr a t e g y. P l e a s e e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir m a n w h e r e t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t i d e a c a m e fr o m a n d w h e r e i t fi t t e d in t h e D is tr i c t S e r v i c e s s u i t e o f p r o j e c ts . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n th e – l e t u s s t a r t f ir s t w i t h o n e o f th e – t h e k e y s t r a t e g i e s i n t h e – i n t h e p r o v i n c e w a s to f o c u s m o r e o n t h e a g r o - p r o c e s s i n g v a l u e a d d in g a n d M o h u m a M o b u n g w a s a c t u a l ly i n i t ia t e d i n 2 0 11 . S o M o h u m a M o b u n g w a s a s tr a t e g y t h a t d e a ls w i th t h e m e g a – l e t u s c a ll th e m m e g a p r o j e c ts a s w e l l a s f o o t s e c u r i ty p r o je c t s a n d w h e n i t c o m e s to t h e m e g a p r o j e c t s t h e y m u s t 10 h a v e a n e le m e n t o f a g r o - p r o c e s s i n g v a l u e a d d in g . S o t h a t is w h y w h e n t h e – t h e p r o j e c t – I h a d – a c t u a l ly I c a m e i n to t h e p i c t u r e a f te r J u l y b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t Vr e d e D a ir y w a s p a r t o f – i s o n e o f th e p r o j e c ts u n d e r M o h u m a M o b u n g a s a s tr a t e g ic g u i d e . I t is n o t M o h u m a M o b u n g b u t i t is o n e o f t h e p r o je c ts . I n th e s a m e w a y a s w e a r e h a v in g b o i le r p r o j e c t s a s w e l l a s t h e H E R a s w e ll a s t h e f e e d l o ts a n d s o o n a n d s o fo r t h . S o t h e is s u e h e r e w a s t h a t M o h u m a M o b u n g w a s d e v e lo p e d t o a c t u a ll y c o n c e n tr a t e o n m o r e h i g h i m p a c t p r o je c ts t h a t c o u l d e m p lo y m o r e t h a n 1 0 0 p e o p le o r s o . S o t h a t is h o w Vr e d e D a ir y a c t u a ll y c a m e 20 in t o b e e n . I t w a s o n e o f t h e p r o j e c ts u n d e r M o h u m a M o b u n g w h ic h w a s a c t u a ll y i n i t ia t e d i n 2 0 11 . I f I m a y j u s t – le t m e j u s t t a k e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n th r o u g h o n e o f t h e is s u e s th a t w e a r e s a y in g h e r e . C h a ir p e r s o n I s a y M o h u m a M o b u n g fo r i n s t a n c e is a m u l ti - m e g a p u b l ic a n d p r i v a t e p a r t n e r s h i p b u s i n e s s c o n c e p t w h ic h r e v o l v e s a r o u n d in c o m e g e n e r a ti o n t h r o u g h f u n d i n g in t h e r u r a l a r e a s o f t h e p r o v i n c e a n d th e Page 146 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 c r e a ti o n o f o n a n d o ff f a r m a g r i b u s i n e s s v a lu e c h a in e n te r p r is e s a n d B l a c k E c o n o m ic E m p o w e r m e n t. T h a t i s w h a t t h e c o n c e p t c e n tr e d a r o u n d . Th e to t a l b u d g e t r e q u ir e d fo r t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f M o h u m a M o b u n g s tr a t e g y f o r in s t a n c e is m o r e t h a n 1 . 2 b il li o n o v e r a p e r io d o f f o u r y e a r s a n d h a s th e p o t e n t i a l o f c r e a ti n g m o r e t h a n 1 0 0 0 0 d e c e n t a n d p e r m a n e n t j o b s a n d m o r e t h a n 1 0 0 0 0 0 i n d ir e c t jo b s . T h a t w a s th e id e a . S o t h a t is w h y w h e n Vr e d e D a ir y w a s a c tu a l ly p r e s e n t e d i t w a s a v e r y l u c r a ti v e a n d g o o d p r o je c t t h a t f it in t o th is g u i d e C h a ir p e r s o n . 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Yo u s e e M r – D r M a s i te n g th e r e a s o n i t i s i m p o r t a n t to l o c a te t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t w i th in M o h u m a M o b u n g is a s I u n d e r s t a n d m a t t e r s t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t b e c a m e M o h u m a M o b u n g s i m p ly b e c a u s e a ll r e s o u r c e s w e r e d ir e c t e d a t t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t c e r t a i n l y in th e p e r i o d 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 4 . Would that be a correct summary of what happened? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . T h a t – t h a t w il l n o t b e t h e c o r r e c t s u m m a r y C h a ir p e r s o n . W e – w e e n d u p h a v i n g a n a ll o c a ti o n c a l l e d M o h u m a M o b u n g . U n d e r th a t o n e y o u w il l h a v e a n a l lo c a t io n f o r Vr e d e D a ir y b u t y o u w il l a l s o h a v e a n a ll o c a ti o n f o r m e c h a n is a t i o n f o r li f e 20 s t o c k a n d o t h e r a g r ic u lt u r a l a c t iv i ti e s . S o i t is – i t is n o t tr u e t o s a y n o w a l l t h e r e s o u r c e s w e r e c h a n n e ll e d . N o th e r e w e r e a ls o o t h e r i n it i a t iv e s w h i c h t h e g r a n t it s e l f w a s t a k i n g c a r e o f . T h i s i s t o s a y i t – M o h u m a M o b u n g is n o t Vr e d e D i a r y b u t Vr e d e D a ir y is a p r o je c t w it h in M o h u m a M o b u n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k – I th i n k w h a t Ms G c a b a s h e mi g h t h a v e m e a n t Page 147 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 is t h a t i n th e p e r c e p ti o n o f m a n y p e o p le t h i s Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t b e c a m e li k e t h a t is w h a t t h e y a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t th i s w h o le b i g g e r p r o je c t w h ic h has got various components but in the perception of some people or m a n y p e o p l e i t s e e m e d t o r e p r e s e n t th e w h o l e th i n g w h e n i n f a c t i t w a s n o t t h e w h o le t h i n g . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d a g r e e w i t h m e ? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s I a g r e e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h a t t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n p e o p l e w i t h th a t p e r c e p t io n y o u w o u l d a g r e e w it h t h a t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: W e – w e w il l i n t e r r o g a t e th a t m a t te r fu r t h e r D r M a s i te n g w i th t h e f i n a n c ia l p e o p l e w h o w e r e in v o lv e d a t t h e t i m e b u t I t h i n k w h e r e y o u c a n a s s is t t h e C o m m is s io n is i n r e la t i o n to w h a t y o u w e r e c a ll in g th e g r a n t j u s t n o w. I p r e s u m e y o u m e a n th e C A S P g r a n t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h ic h g r a n t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I a m r e fe r r i n g t o t h e v o t e d f u n d . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C o m in g fr o m ( in d is ti n c t) ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t is a p r o v i n c i a l a l lo c a t io n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: S o y o u h a d t h e p r o v i n c ia l a l l o c a t i o n fo r a g r ic u lt u r e ? Page 148 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e c a ll i n g t h e v o t e d f u n d ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: A n d y o u a r e s a y in g fr o m t h o s e f u n d s t h e r e w a s a n a ll o c a t io n fo r M o h u m a M o b u n g ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A s t h e r e w o u l d b e f o r o th e r … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A r e a s ; b u t th e a l lo c a ti o n f o r M o h u m a M o b u n g 10 y o u s a y d i d n o t g o e x c l u s iv e ly to t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Fa r m Pr o j e c t i n 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . W e d i d n o t h a v e M o h u m a M o b u n g a s a n a l lo c a t io n a t t h a t t i m e . I t h i n k it s ta r t e d in t h e 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 fi n a n c i a l y e a r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : B u t th is i s t h e p o i n t Vr e d e D a i r y Fa r m w a s i n e x i s te n c e a s o f 5 J u ly 2 0 2 1 2 . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s y o u h a d a n a ll o c a ti o n u n d e r f o o t s e c u r i ty – w h ic h is f o o t s e c u r i t y. T h a t is w h y I s a i d t h a t is w h y u l ti m a t e ly w e h a d a M o h u m a M o b u n g s o r t o f g r a n t w h ic h w a s c a t e r i n g 20 f o r d i ffe r e n t p r o je c t s b u t Vr e d e D a i r y w a s – w a s s u p p o r t e d a t t h a t p e r i o d u n d e r a n o r m a l v o te d f u n d w h ic h w a s a fo o t s e c u r i ty a n d s o o n and so. CHAIRPERSON: L e t u s t a k e th e – w e l l o n e w e n o r m a l ly s t o p a t f o u r b u t s o m e t i m e s w e g o b e y o n d t h a t. I c a n g o u p t o fi v e . I s t h a t w h a t y o u w o u ld lik e ? Page 149 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I w o u ld p r e fe r t h a t C h a ir m a n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W o u ld y o u b e fi n e w i t h t h a t? ADV LEAH GCABASHE: D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t . L e t u s t a k e a n a d j o u r n m e n t n o w a n d i t is j u s t a f t e r fo u r. W e w il l r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r p a s t f o u r. W e a d j o u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS 10 INQUIRY RESUMES A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I th i n k i t ’s d o a b l e C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , fr o m y o u r s i d e D r M a s i t e n g ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s th a n k s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d I t h i n k i t ’s b e c a u s e m u c h o f th e e v i d e n c e i s e v id e n c e o th e r p e o p l e s h o u l d r e a l ly b e s p e a k i n g t o , th e e s s e n ti a l e v i d e n c e f r o m t h i s w i t n e s s r e a lly t u r n e d o n th o s e m e m o s , s u b m is s io n s t h a t h e s i g n e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t I t h i n k t h a t s o m e o f w h a t I a m g o in g t o e x p lo r e i n t h e n e x t h o u r f e e d s i n to t h a t m e m o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o t h a t ’s fi n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u w e r e e x p l a i n in g t h e v o t e t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e g e t s . I a ls o h o w e v e r w a n t y o u to e x p l a in t o u s t h e C A S P b u d g e t , s o i f y o u tu r n t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t p a g e T J M 0 9 4 , T J M , Page 150 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 w h ic h a r e y o u r i n it i a ls D r M a s i te n g , 0 9 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t b e c o n s is t e n t M s G c a b a s h e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I a s k e d f o r p e r m is s io n C h a ir t o s tr a d d le . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o , I’ v e s a i d th a t – I a m ta lk in g a b o u t t h e p a g e n u m b e r s a ll a l o n g y o u h a v e b e e n s a y i n g p a g e 8 6 w i t h o u t t h e T J M 0 0 . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A b s o l u t e ly, I a p o l o g i s e , y o u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir m a n , i t’s t h e fir s t ti m e I u s e th e z e r o . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o t h e r w is e w h o e v e r r e a d s – l o o k s fo r a n o t h e r p a g e 10 a n d n o t t h is o n e , s o j u s t t o b e c o n s is t e n t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: F o r t h e r e c o r d p a g e 9 4 , th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a i n t h is d o c u m e n t t o m e , a n d I k n o w i t ’s l o o k i n g a t a p a r t ic u l a r y e a r, 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 , b u t w h a t ’s c o n c e r n i n g m e is t h e e v id e n c e y o u h a v e g iv e n o n w h a t m o n i e s w e r e u s e d f o r M a h o m a M a b u n g a n d w h a t w a s u s e d f o r t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o je c t, s o m a y b e th is w il l e x p l a i n o r s u p p o r t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g a n d h e l p m e u n d e r s ta n d i t a b i t b e t t e r. 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h a t is t h is d o c u m e n t a n d is th is a d o c u m e n t t h a t i s g e n e r a t e d e v e r y y e a r. DR TA N K I S I JANKI MASITENG: Okay th a n k you very much C h a ir p e r s o n o n c e m o r e . Th is is a c tu a lly a b u s in e s s p l a n fr a m e w o r k f o r C A S P f o r a l l th e p r o j e c ts w h e n y o u a p p ly fo r fu n d i n g y o u u s e t h is Page 151 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t e m p l a te . N o w w h a t h a p p e n e d is th a t . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Please the acronym CASP? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t ’s C o m p r e h e n s iv e A g r i c u l tu r a l Support Program. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Now what happened is that because in t e r n a ll y a s th e P r o v i n c ia l D e p a r t m e n t w e h a v e t o c o m p il e w h a t w e c a l l a P r o v i n c ia l B u s i n e s s P l a n o f w h ic h Vr e d e D a i r y w a s th e n in c l u d e d i n to t h e P r o v i n c ia l B u s in e s s P l a n a s o n e o f th o s e p r o je c t s t h a t w e h a v e t o 10 p r e s e n t t o N a ti o n a l f o r f u n d i n g , s o th a t is w h y t h is b u s in e s s p l a n w a s t h e n c o m p il e d , w it h t h e a m o u n t a n d i f y o u lo o k a t th e a m o u n t , t h e t o t a l a m o u n t ta lk s t o t h e Es c o m e m o , t h a t 1 4 0 m il li o n , t h a t is w h y f o r C A S P y o u w o u ld r e q u e s t 5 3 m il li o n b u t y o u a r e s a y in g D A R T w ill a v a il 6 0 m i ll io n t o g iv e y o u t h e to t a l o f 1 4 0 , t h is i s t h e d o c u m e n t w h ic h is a l s o c o m p il e d b y t h e A g r ic u l t u r a l E c o n o m ic s o f o u r d e p a r t m e n t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t w h e n I r e a d t h is p a g e 9 4 I s e e t h e t o t a l C A S P a m o u n t o f R 5 3 9 5 0 0 0 0 , a n d t h e n I s e e t h e t o t a l a v a i la b l e b u d g e t a t th e b o t to m w h ic h is 11 4 m il li o n . I a ls o k n o w th a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t a l lo c a t e d 11 4 m i ll io n o v e r a th r e e y e a r p e r i o d t o t h e E s ti n a 20 D a ir y Pr o je c t . T h e a m o u n t a b o v e t h a t 11 4 m i ll io n r e a d s 6 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 . W h e n I l o o k a t t h is d o c u m e n t it s a y s t o m e t h e 6 0 0 5 0 0 0 0 t h a t o u g h t t o h a v e g o n e to p r o d u c t io n i n p u ts , m e c h a n is a ti o n , o t h e r in fr a s tr u c t u r e a n d r e v e n u e e n h a n c e m e n t is n o w g o in g to f o r m p a r t o f t h e 1 4 0 m i ll i o n th a t ’s g o i n g t o g o to E s ti n a b e c a u s e y o u h a d b u d g e t e d 11 4 m i ll io n fo r E s ti n a . I f I a m m is r e a d i n g i t p l e a s e j u s t h e l p u s u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h i s Page 152 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 r e p r e s e n ts ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s y o u a r e c o r r e c t A d v o c a te Gcabashe. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u s e e b e c a u s e e a r l ie r y o u s a id t o u s n o , n o , n o , w e p u t m o n e y i n to v a r io u s it e m s , a n d I k n o w y o u a r e t a lk i n g about the vote. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t t h e p o i n t r e a l ly a b o u t t h e E s ti n a p r o j e c t is t h a t m o n e y w a s t a k e n fr o m o th e r a r e a s t h a t th e d e p a r t m e n t 10 o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n s e r v i c i n g a n d p u t in t o t h i s o n e m e g a p r o je c t b e c a u s e y o u h a d i d e n ti f ie d i t a s a m e g a p r o j e c t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , w h a t is h a p p e n i n g C h a i r p e r s o n is t h a t l e t u s s a y fo r i n s t a n c e n o w y o u s e e I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o a p p ly m y m i n d h e r e , I ’ m j u s t a s s is ti n g . W h a t is h a p p e n in g M a h o m a M a b u n g w o u ld b e f o r i n s t a n c e a ll o c a te d 8 0 m i ll io n f o r a r g u m e n t ’s s a k e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w o u ld b e f o r d i ff e r e n t c o m p o n e n ts . DR TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Which w o u ld be for d i ff e r e n t c o m p o n e n ts fo r a r g u m e n t ’s s a k e , a n d t h e n w h a t t h i s d o c u m e n t is t r y i n g t o s a y t o u s is t h a t y e s o u t o f th a t 6 0 w il l b e u t il is e d t o t o p u p t h e 5 3 20 a n d g iv e y o u a t o t a l o f 1 4 0 . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I hear you. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e to t a l C A S P b u d g e t f o r t h e 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 y e a r w a s R 5 3 9 5 0 0 0 0 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o , n o C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e t o t a l b u d g e t f o r C A S P f o r t h a t fi n a n c i a l y e a r, t h e a ll o c a ti o n f o r t h e p r o v i n c e , le t m e Page 153 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ju s t l o o k a t t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n th a t w e m a d e , t h a t w o u l d b e 1 0 8 , 1 0 8 u n d e r t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t , t h a t i s t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n th a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t h a s m a d e to D A F a t t h a t ti m e , i t w i ll i n c lu d e q u i t e a n u m b e r o f in it i a t iv e s o f w h ic h d a ir y w i ll b e o n e o f t h e m b u t n o t t o s a y th e a l lo c a t io n fo r t h e p r o v i n c e w a s 5 3 m i ll i o n , i t w a s m o r e t h a n t h a t . CHAIRPERSON: W h e r e is t h e 1 0 8 to w h ic h y o u r e f e r, w h ic h p a g e ? Yo u r e f e r r e d t o 1 0 8 a n d I c a n ’t s e e 1 0 8 a t p a g e 9 4 w h e r e I s e e R 5 3 9 5 0 0 0 0 , w h e r e is t h e 1 0 8 . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t ’s a n n e x u r e ? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t ’s A n n e x u r e K . CHAIRPERSON: Annexure K? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n that TJM108 Annexure K. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , t h a t i s t h e p r e s e n ta t io n w h ic h was done on the 30th of January 2013. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : CHAIRPERSON: 20 To t h e N a ti o n a l A s s e s s m e n t P a n e l . I ’ m s o r r y p l e a s e te ll m e t h e p a g e r a t h e r t h a n t h e annexure, what page is annexure K? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: P a g e 1 0 8 C h a ir m a n , b u t li k e y o u I c a n n o t fi n d t h e f i g u r e . CHAIRPERSON: O h 1 0 8 i s t h e p a g e n u m b e r, I t h o u g h t i t w a s t h e a m o u n t o f m o n e y, 1 8 0 m il li o n o r s o m e th i n g . O k a y, a lr i g h t , s o a t p a g e 1 0 8 is t h e b e g in n i n g o f a c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t a n d y o u s a y t h a t d o c u m e n t Page 154 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 r e p r e s e n ts , i t d o e s i n d ic a te t h e b u d g e t s f o r C A S P i n r e g a r d t o t h e 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 f in a n c i a l y e a r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . A n d w h e r e is th e a m o u n t . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e n y o u g o to 11 8 . C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 8 ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I ’ m t h e r e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 Ye s n o w y o u s e e t h e b r e a k d o w n there. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e b r e a k d o w n b e g in s to i n d ic a te t o u s th a t i n t o t a l o n t h e c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t s t h e p r o v in c e r e c e iv e d 2 0 6 m i lli o n b u t t h a t 2 0 6 m i ll io n 8 .5 m i ll i o n o f i t w a s l a n d c a r e o f w h i c h 5 7 m i ll io n w a s fo r E l e M a le ts e w h ic h i s a n o t h e r c o n d i t io n a l g r a n t , s o th e rest would be CASP Advocate. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th e r e a r e t w o b o x e s t h e r e , y o u ’r e ta lk i n g to t h e b o t t o m b o x is t h a t r i g h t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 20 T h e f ir s t , l e t’s t a k e t h e fi r s t o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fi n a n c i a l y e a r g r a n ts . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : The financial year grants. CHAIRPERSON: 2013/2014 yes. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t w i ll s a y C A S P, t h e a m o u n t is 1 4 0 m i lli o n , t h e a ll o c a ti o n f o r t h e P r o v i n c e . CHAIRPERSON: O h w h e n t h e r e i s – t h e r e i s s o m e th i n g t h a t’s b e e n Page 155 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 blacked out at th e top there, and then on the s id e , so i t ’s c o m p r e h e n s iv e a g r ic u l t u r a l s u p p o r t p r o g r a m , t h a t is t h e l o n g t e r m f o r CASP? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : F o r C A S P. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d t h e n t h e a l lo c a t io n f o r t h a t fi n a n c i a l y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is 1 4 0 . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 I s 1 4 0 o f w h i c h t h e 5 3 is th e n r e q u e s t e d t o a s s is t t h e Vr e d e D a ir y, n o t th e w h o l e b u d g e t . CHAIRPERSON: Oh, o k a y, it ’s 140 204 000 for the whole . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : F o r th e w h o le C A S P. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e w h o l e C A S P. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th e n t h e 5 3 9 5 0 0 0 0 t h a t w e s e e a t p a g e 9 4 c o m e s fr o m t h a t a m o u n t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Fr o m t h e 11 4 y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y, s o w h e r e i t s a y s t o ta l C A S P o n p a g e 20 9 4 i t m e a n s t o ta l c o n tr ib u ti o n fr o m C A S P t o t h is d a ir y p r o j e c t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : To t h e P r o v in c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e P r o v i n c e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : To th e Pr o v in c e , th e Pr o v i n c e h a s r e c e i v e d c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n ts e v e r y fi n a n c i a l y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 156 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o w y o u w i ll g o a n d p r e s e n t t h e p r o j e c ts th a t y o u w a n t th e m t o b e f u n d e d , a n d o n c e t h e y h a v e a p p r o v e d t h o s e p r o j e c ts y o u t h e n c o m e b a c k a n d e n te r in t o n o w t h e o t h e r p r o c e s s e s o f b e n e fi c i a r i e s a g r e e m e n t s a n d s o o n , b e c a u s e th e r e is a n approval at a national level. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a C A S P f r o m N a ti o n a l l e v e l ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s i t c o m e s fr o m N a ti o n a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t 1 4 0 c o m e s fr o m N a t io n a l ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 CHAIRPERSON: I t’s a n a t io n a l a l lo c a t io n . B u t i t is a l lo c a t e d t o t h e p a r tic u la r p r o v in c e , t h a t ’s Fr e e S t a t e o n ly. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t ’s Fr e e S t a t e o n ly, o t h e r p r o v i n c e s m i g h t g e t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: S o t h e m o n e y s i ts w it h N a t i o n a l , w i t h t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t b u t w h e n y o u h a v e s a t is f ie d t h e m t h a t y o u h a v e g o t p r o j e c ts t h a t f a ll u n d e r C A S P a n d y o u h a v e w o r k e d o u t h o w m u c h is n e e d e d t h e n i f t h e y a r e h a p p y th e n t h e y g i v e y o u t h e m o n e y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e y tr a n s f e r t h e m o n e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w I u n d e r s ta n d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s , b u t l e t’s lo o k a t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s a g a in , s o I’ v e g o t o n e fi n g e r o n p a g e 9 4 , a n o t h e r o n p a g e 11 8 a n d a n o t h e r a t p a g e 11 9 . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 11 9 . Page 157 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o i f w e g o b a c k t o p a g e 11 8 , t o t h e s e c o n d b l o c k t h a t ’s e n t i tl e d D is tr i c t b u d g e t b r e a k d o w n , w e g e t to T h a b o M a p h u tz a n j a n e , p a g e 11 8 . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So I am at the second block. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s . A n d s o t h e a ll o c a t i o n , t h is is p e r d i s tr i c t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 Ye s . Ye s . T h e a l l o c a ti o n f o r Th a b o M a p h u tz a n ja n e is f o r d a ir y, p i g s , s o y a . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s . A n d t h a t’s 6 6 m il li o n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t’s 6 6 m ill i o n . O k a y, i f y o u g o o v e r t h e p a g e t o 11 9 y o u – t h e s e c o n d b l o c k a g a in h a s c o m m o d i t i e s s u p p o r te d , w e t h e n g e t to d a ir y, 5 3 9 5 0 0 0 0 . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s . T h a t i s t h e f ig u r e t h a t c o r r e s p o n d s t o t h e one on page 94. 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : E x a c tly. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So of the total budget you say of 1 4 0 m i lli o n th a t c o m e s in t o p r o v i n c e fr o m C A S P o n ly 5 3 9 5 0 0 0 0 w o u l d g o t o t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s a b o u t o n e t h ir d o f t h e a l lo c a t io n . Page 158 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t ’s a b o u t o n e t h ir d o f t h e a l lo c a t io n y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t h a v i n g g iv e n t h a t o n e th ir d o f th e a l lo c a t io n a c c o r d i n g to p a g e 11 9 t o d a ir y it le a v e s v e r y l i t tl e fo r o t h e r p r o j e c ts , s o t h e o t h e r p r o j e c t s t h a t a r e s u p p o r t e d , c o m m o d i ti e s s u p p o r t e d , g a m e , liv e s t o c k , p o u l tr y, a g r o - p r o c e s s in g , e s s e n t ia l o ils a l l o f th o s e a r e Th a b o M a p h u tz a n j a n e p r o j e c ts t h a t a r e s u p p o r te d b y CASP? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e t o s a y y e s , n o d d i n g is n o t r e c o r d e d . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s , y e s . S o i f C A S P i s p r o v i d i n g 5 3 m il li o n , a l m o s t 5 4 m i ll io n f o r t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t , a n d th e t o t a l b u d g e t f o r Vr e d e , f o r t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t is 11 4 m il li o n w h e r e d o e s t h e s h o r t f a ll c o m e fr o m ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e s h o r t fa ll w i ll h a v e to c o m e fr o m the voted fund. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h i c h p o r ti o n o f th e v o t e d f u n d ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e Pr o v in c i a l a l l o c a t i o n . B u t i t is i te m is e d a s w e ll , is n ’ t i t ? O r h a s it g o t g e n e r a l i te m s s o y o u c a n e a s il y t a k e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s le t ’s s a y, li k e I’ v e i n d i c a t e d if it ’s 8 0 m i ll io n fo r in s ta n c e y o u w o u ld s a y a lr e a d y I h a v e t h i s 5 3 m il li o n , n o w I a m s h o r t f a l l o f 6 0 , t h e n fr o m 8 0 I a m ta k in g 6 0 t o t o ta l , t h a t ’s h o w it w o r k s in m o s t c a s e s . Page 159 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u k n o w th e r e a s o n I h a v e a r e a l in t e r e s t i n th e s e n u m b e r s is b e c a u s e w h e n I g o b a c k t o th e d o c u m e n t s y o u s a y y o u w e r e g iv e n , w h e n y o u m a d e y o u r s u b m is s i o n , I l o o k a t t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y fo r in s t a n c e t h a t y o u h a d , t h e fe a s i b i li ty s tu d y i n f a c t y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e t h e f e a s i b ili t y s tu d y b e c a u s e th e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w a s o n ly c o n c lu d e d i n O c t o b e r o f 2 0 1 2 . C h a i r ma n if I m i g h t j u s t fi n d t h e document. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 A n d I k n o w y o u a r e s i m p l y a s s is t in g D r M a s i t e n g a n d w e w i ll b e le a d i n g t h e s a m e e v i d e n c e w it h o t h e r w i t n e s s e s , th e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e C h a ir i s r e f e r e n c e b u n d le B is r e fe r e n c e B u n d l e B a n d t h e p a g e is 4 8 2 . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I’ v e g o t i t . It c o m e s b a c k to u n d e r s t a n d in g n o t j u s t your approval or your submission but the approval of the project, b e c a u s e i f y o u a r e s a y i n g th a t t h e i n t e n ti o n i s t o h a v e a b a n k a b l e p r o j e c t , a c o m m e r c ia ll y v ia b le p r o je c t th a t a ls o u p l i ft s t h e p e o p l e o f Vr e d e , o n e y o u n e e d to h a v e th e m o n e y f o r i t , w h ic h i s w h y w e a r e lo o k in g a t t h e C A S P a l lo c a t io n a n d y o u ’v e m e n ti o n e d th e v o t e , b u t m o r e 20 i m p o r t a n tly t h e u n d e r ly i n g p r e mi s e f o r i n i ti a ti n g th e p r o j e c t h a s t o b e s o u n d , y o u w o u l d a g r e e ? D r M a s it e n g ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s , y e s C h a i r p e r s o n . I f I a s k y o u to lo o k a t p a g e 5 4 6 o f t h a t s a m e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 5 4 6 ? Page 160 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 5 4 6 , ju s t a b o v e c o n c l u s i o n t h e r e ’s a l it t le s u b - h e a d i n g t h a t’s p a r t o f th e fi n a n c i a l p e r fo r m a n c e p r o je c t e d fo r t h is p r o j e c t , th e y s a y h e r e t h a t i t w o u l d t a k e 1 2 t o 1 4 m o n t h s f o r t h e d a i r y t o b e c o m e o p e r a t i o n a l . T h is w o u l d – I a m r e a d i n g w h a t i s w r i t t e n h e r e , t h is w o u l d r e s u l t in a l o s s o f 8 .4 8 m il li o n i n 2 0 1 2 to 2 0 1 3 , a n d 1 .8 3 m il li o n in 2 0 1 3 t o 1 4 . N o w t h is i s a f e a s i b il it y s t u d y t h a t w a s d o n e , t h e q u e s ti o n s th a t a r i s e in m y m i n d a r e t h e fo ll o w i n g , w h e n y o u lo o k a t t h e p r o s p e c ts o f t h is p r o j e c t a t a n y p o i n t b e c o m i n g a c o m m e r c ia ll y v ia b le p r o j e c t w h i c h I u n d e r s t o o d t o b e t h e in t e n ti o n o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t , 10 a n d t h e f e a s i b i li ty s tu d y i ts e l f te ll s y o u f r o m t h e f ir s t 11 4 m i ll io n th a t y o u a r e g o in g to p u t in t o th is p r o j e c t i n t h e f ir s t y e a r y o u a r e g o i n g t o lo s e 8 . 4 8 m il li o n , a n d i n t h e s e c o n d y e a r y o u a r e g o i n g t o lo s e a n o t h e r 1 .8 3 m il li o n a n d I r e a ll y a m j u s t lo o k in g a t o n e a s p e c t, I a m n o t e v e n lo o k in g a t t h e w h o le r e c o m m e n d a ti o n , d o e s n ’ t t h a t r e q u ir e a t s o m e le v e l, m a y b e n o t a t y o u r l e v e l , s o m e i n t e r r o g a t io n , th e v ia b il it y o f t h e p r o j e c t g iv e n t h e li m i t e d f u n d s y o u h a v e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : L ik e y o u a r e c o r r e c tl y i n d ic a ti n g , r e m e m b e r y o u h a v e p r o f e s s i o n a l s e r v i c e s , w h ic h t h e n h a s to c o m e i n a n d in t e r r o g a t e th is , th e D is tr ic t S e r v ic e s w i ll h a v e t o w a i t f o r t h e 20 c o m p le t io n c e r ti f ic a te , s o y o u a r e c o r r e c t , I a g r e e w i t h y o u , t h e e c o n o m is t s i n t h i s c a s e w il l h a v e t o l o o k in t o a ll th e i s s u e s t h e n . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e e c o n o m i s ts s i ts in D i s t r ic t S e r v ic e s ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o , t h e y s i t i n . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Where does the economists sit? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e y s it in t h e P r o f e s s i o n a l S e r v ic e s , Page 161 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 that is another Chief Directorate. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o t h e e c o n o m i s ts m u s t b e a b le to l o o k a t a fe a s i b i li ty s t u d y l ik e t h is . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o n t h e b a n k a b i li ty o f a p r o j e c t l ik e t h is a n d th e c o m m e r c ia l v i a b i li ty ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f a p r o je c t li k e th is . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D o y o u k n o w if t h a t h a p p e n e d ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o I w i ll b e s p e c u l a ti n g . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u s e e b e c a u s e t h is p a r t ic u l a r f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y is d a te d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e is s u e w o u l d b e w h e n y o u d e v e l o p t h i s b u s in e s s p la n y o u a ls o h a v e to t a k e i n t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n o t h e r s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ts , s o t h a t’s w h y I a m a fr a id t o s a y y e s t h e y d i d lo o k i n t o t h i s , b e c a u s e t h is w a s d o n e i n O c t o b e r, t h e b u s i n e s s p la n w a s d e v e l o p e d f o r 1 3 /1 4 . S o t h e y m ig h t h a v e ta k e n i n t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n q u i te a n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t w il l in c l u d e a ls o a n 20 a n a ly s is o f th is , b u t I a m s p e c u l a t i n g C h a i r p e r s o n a n d I a m a f r a i d to d o t h a t to t h e C o m m i s s i o n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s D r M a s i t e n g I h a v e h e a r d y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w e r e g iv e n d o c u m e n ts , y o u w e r e a s k e d t o m a k e a s u b m is s io n , y o u m a d e th e s u b m is s io n a n d p a s s e d i t o n t o t h e n e x t le v e l, t h a t is th e e s s e n c e o f w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d , a n d t h a t y o u d i d n o t Page 162 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 in t e r r o g a t e t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u w e r e g i v e n ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o w h a t I d i d I d id n ’t i n t e r r o g a t e t h e d o c u m e n ts , t h e i n s tr u c t io n w a s v e r y c l e a r, I h a v e t h i s , I h a v e s a ti s f i e d m y s e l f j u s t c o m p il e fo r m e t h i s d e v ia t io n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s I t h i n k w i t h r e s p e c t t o t h i s p r o je c t , o r t h is a s p e c t , th e fi n a n c i a ls , w e w i ll d e a l w i t h it w i t h a d i ff e r e n t w i tn e s s C h a ir m a n b e c a u s e I d o n o t t h in k t h a t D r M a s i t e n g c a n ta k e t h i s p o in t a n y f u r t h e r f r o m w h e r e h e s a t i n 2 0 1 2 . C a n I . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e p o i n t I w a n t e d t o r a is e is t h is , t o t h e e x t e n t 10 that you were asked by the HOD to prepare a document where he made it c l e a r to y o u t h a t h e w a s d e v i a ti n g fr o m t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s , w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t h e n e e d e d s o m e th i n g , h e n e e d e d a d o c u m e n t th a t h e w o u l d a d o p t a s h i s o w n a n d a l l y o u w o u ld b e w a s s i m p l y a c o m p il e r o f t h e d o c u m e n t y o u r s e l f , o r w a s th e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u u n d e r s to o d th a t y o u w o u l d b y c o m p il i n g t h e d o c u m e n t b e c o m e a l s o y o u r s e l f o n e o f t h e p e o p le w h o w o u ld b e s a i d t o h a v e m a d e i t p o s s ib le f o r a p p r o v a l to b e g r a n te d , o r f o r t h e d e v i a ti o n t o h a p p e n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o t i n t h is c a s e C h a ir p e r s o n , i n th is c a s e I a m a c o m p il e r, b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r in t h e f ir s t p l a c e t h e r e w e r e 20 d o c u m e n ts w h ic h w e r e c o m p l e t e d a lr e a d y, s o I d i d n o t h a v e a s a y o n t h o s e o n e s , I d i d n o t h a v e th e i n p u t s w h a t e v e r, i t w a s ju s t t o c o m p i le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u s a w y o u r j o b a s s i m p ly . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : S i m p ly a c o m p il e r i n th is c a s e . Page 163 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u t h o u g h t e v e r y th i n g w a s s o to s p e a k h is . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s C h a ir p e r s o n , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: In the normal course of things however for a p r o j e c t o f t h e s i z e o f E s t in a y o u w o u l d h a v e a p l a n n in g s e s s i o n lo n g b e f o r e a n y b o d y s i g n e d a n y c o n tr a c t , a m I c o r r e c t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u w o u l d a p p ly th e p la n , i n f a c t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n d r a w n fr o m t h e s tr a te g y o f g o v e r n m e n t , w h a t e v e r y o u p u t 10 in t o t h e p l a n , y o u w o u ld h a v e g o n e th r o u g h th e b u d g e t t o m a k e s u r e y o u h a d t h e m o n e y, t h is is i n th e n o r m a l c o u r s e , y o u w o u ld m a k e s u r e y o u h a v e th e m o n e y to s u s t a i n t h e p r o j e c t , b u t i n t h i s in s t a n c e n o n e o f t h e s e t h i n g s p r e c e d e d t h e s i g n i n g o f t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h Es t in a . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a i r p e r s o n I a m a ls o d is a d v a n t a g e d in t h i s c a s e b e c a u s e I w a s n o t in t h e p ic t u r e C h a ir p e r s o n , I w a s n o t i n t h e p ic tu r e f o r m t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s w e r e i d e n t i fi e d , w h e n m e e t in g s w e r e h e l d , I o n ly h a d o n e m e e ti n g w i t h th e b e n e fic ia r i e s w h i c h D h la m i n i w a s t a lk in g a b o u t , t h a t w a s in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 7 , t h a t w a s m y fi r s t m e e ti n g w i t h t h e m , w h ic h is n o t a s u r p r is e b e c a u s e I a m t h e C h ie f D ir e c t o r, I h a v e 20 d ir e c t o r s w h o e v e r y n o w a n d t h e n m e e t w i t h t h e m . S o i n t h i s c a s e I o n l y c a m e i n t o a p ic tu r e a ft e r, s o i t i s a li t t le b i t d i ffi c u l t , I a m a c t u a ll y c o r n e r e d C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e l l i f y o u d o n ’ t k n o w y o u a r e n o t c o r n e r e d y o u ju s t s a y y o u d o n ’ t k n o w, b u t I e i th e r n o w o r a f t e r t h e q u e s ti o n i f y o u w a n t to t a k e th e q u e s t io n fu r t h e r I j u s t w a n t t o g o t o t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t Page 164 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 y o u p r e p a r e d a f te r th e H O D s a i d n o , n o n o t t h is o n e , b e c a u s e th a t o n e h a d b e e n d o n e , b u t i t d e p e n d s w h e t h e r M s G c a b a s h e s t il l w a n t s to t a k e t h a t q u e s t io n fu r t h e r th a t s h e h a d a s k e d y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o t t h i s p a r ti c u la r o n e C h a ir, I t h i n k I s h o u l d m o v e o n to o n e o r t w o o th e r a s p e c ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: M a y I f in d o u t w h e r e t h a t d o c u m e n t i s , w e s a w t h e o n e w h ic h y o u s a i d t h e H O D r e j e c t e d a n d s a i d t h a t o n e h a d a lr e a d y 10 b e e n p r e p a r e d a n d h e a s k e d y o u t o p r e p a r e a n o t h e r o n e , w h e r e is t h a t one? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u a r e l o o k in g f o r t h e o n e th a t y o u h a d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e o n e t h a t i n c l u d e s d e v i a ti o n , th a t o n e d o e s n o t ta lk t o d e v ia t io n , t h e r e is t h e o n e t h a t t a l k s a b o u t th e s a m e d o c u m e n t , s a m e d a t e , b u t t h a t o n e n o w t a l k s a b o u t t h e d e v ia t io n . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e h e w a n t e d y o u t o c o m p i le a d o c u m e n t th a t w o u ld s h o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e g r o u n d s t o d e v ia t e , is t h a t r ig h t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a ir m a n w it h y o u r le a v e l e t m e ju s t g o t h r o u g h t h e f il e q u ic k ly. CHAIRPERSON: O r w h a t w e c a n d o i f y o u r l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e s c a n lo o k fo r i t w e c a n m o v e o n , y o u c a n a s k o th e r q u e s ti o n s a n d t h e n w e w i ll c o m e b a c k a n d m a y b e t h e y w i ll h a v e f o u n d i t w h e n w e c o m e b a c k . Page 165 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t ’s m o v e o n to o t h e r q u e s t io n s , w e w i ll c o m e b a c k to i t. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a i r m a n if w e m ig h t t h e n j u s t e x p l o r e y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t , y o u m e n t io n e d th is r i g h t a t t h e o u ts e t , y o u s a id y o u u n d e r s t o o d E s t in a to b e a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t, w h a t i s th e i m p o r ta n c e o f th a t , E s t in a b e i n g a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 An implementing agent takes – it is s o r t o f p r o j e c t m a n a g e m e n t , ta k e s c h a r g e o f t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f th e p r o j e c t fr o m th e w o r d g o u p t o i ts c o m p l e ti o n a n d o n c e – t h a t w il l in c l u d e th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s , t h a t w i ll in c l u d e a ls o t h e p u r c h a s e o r th e p r o c u r e m e n t o f m a t e r ia l a n d o n c e th a t h a s b e e n c o m p le t e d n o w y o u w i ll h a v e , th e e n g i n e e r s a r e a l w a y s w i th t h e le v e ls o f c o n s t r u c t i o n , b u t o n c e th a t c o m p l e t e d t h e r e m u s t b e a c o m p l e ti o n c e r t if ic a te s o i n t h is c a s e E s t i n a w a s a p p o i n t e d to d o th e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y, t o d o th e b u s i n e s s p la n n i n g , t o d o th e w a t e r is s u e s a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r t h . T h e w a y I l o o k I a m j u s t s a y in g t h e s e t h i n g s C h a ir p e r s o n based on the document that I have seen. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t w a s a p p o i n t e d a c t u a l ly to d o a l m o s t e v e r y t h i n g a n d t h e n b r i n g a p r o d u c t , t o s a y h e r e is a p r o d u c t n o w b r i n g y o u r o w n b e n e fi c i a r ie s a n d d e p a r t m e n t o u t . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll m a y b e w h e n y o u s a y I a m o u t y o u m a y b e a n s w e r i n g th e q u e s ti o n b e t t e r, I w a n t e d t o a s k w h y E s ti n a w o u l d d o t h e Page 166 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y o r w o u l d b e th e i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n t w h e n in fa c t th e y a r e t o b e n e f i t f r o m t h e p r o je c t , t h e y a r e p a r ty to t h e p r o j e c t . S h o u ld n ’ t t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t b e s o m e b o d y e ls e o r is i t my ig n o r a n c e o f h o w t h e s e t h i n g s a r e d o n e i n g o v e r n m e n t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n y o u r a n a l y s i s i s c o r r e c t , I w o n ’ t b e a b l e t o r e s p o n d to t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u l o o k l ik e y o u h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o s a y, d o y o u w a n t to s a y w h a t y o u a r e t h i n k in g ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 N o t a s s u c h C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s s a y in g y o u a r e c o r r e c t in y o u r a n a l y s i s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : To s a y i n i n s t a n c e s I a p p o i n t y o u a s a n i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t , y o u m u s t a c t u a l ly – w e m u s t c le a r, y o u d o u p to t h is fi le a n d t h e n a f t e r t h a t y o u g e t o u t , t h e n i n c a s e y o u w a n t t o p a r t ic ip a t e f u r t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d t h e n y o u c a n i n d ic a te a n d s a y, I w a n t t o b r i n g i n m y – th is s o t h a t I c a n b u y i n t h e s e s h a r e s a n d s o o n a n d s o fo r t h . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Yo u s e e p a r t o f t h e C h a ir m a n ’s d i ffic u l t y is m y d i ff ic u l ty a s w e l l t h a t y o u h a v e E s ti n a ’s a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t a n d a m a n a g e m e n t a g e n t b u t n o t o n ly t h a t y o u a l s o h a v e t h e s a m e p e o p le w h o p r e p a r e d t h a t c o m p a n y p r o fi le y o u l o o k e d a t , t h a t f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y t h a t y o u l o o k e d a t , t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n th a t y o u l o o k a t – y o u l o o k e d a t Page 167 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 s o a l l d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d is g iv e n t o – is b e i n g a s s e s s e d a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y a d e c i s i o n i s t a k e n to g iv e th e p r o j e c t t o the same p e o p le who had no c o m p e ti t o r s who prepared t h is d o c u m e n t a ti o n . I t is v e r y i n c e s t u o u s t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h t h is c a r r i e d out. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t is w h y C h a ir p e r s o n I w a n t e d to li m i te d m y a n s w e r to t h e q u e s ti o n , w h a t i s t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t ? CHAIRPERSON: W e l l w e w a n t y o u t o a s s is t u s w it h a s m u c h in f o r m a ti o n a s p o s s i b l e in c l u d i n g te ll i n g u s w h e th e r t o y o u r k n o w le d g e 10 t h e w a y t h i n g s w e r e d o n e i n r e g a r d t o t h is p r o je c t i n c lu d in g t h e r o l e t h a t – t h e r o l e s th a t Es t in a p l a y e d w a s t h e c o r r e c t w a y o f d o in g t h i n g s . W h a t w a s d o n e w r o n g , w h a t d e v i a t e d fr o m th e n o r m ? W h a t w a s th e n o r m a l w a y o f d o i n g t h e s e t h i n g s a n d w h a t w e r e t h e p r o c e d u r e s w h ic h w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e fo ll o w e d ? W h a t – w h o q u a l if i e d to d o w h a t ? B e c a u s e it j u s t s e e m s t h a t E s ti n a w a s t a k i n g r o l e s w h e r e – w h ic h s h o u l d b e d o n e b y s o m e b o d y w h o d o e s n o t h a v e a n i n t e r e s t in th e p r o j e c t b u t E s t i n a h a d a n in t e r e s t i n th e p r o j e c t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : the – the setup. 20 Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . When you look at I a m a p p o i n ti n g y o u a s a n i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t f o r a p r o j e c t o f le t u s s a y 5 7 0 mi ll i o n . B u t y o u a r e s a y i n g t o m e I t h i n k th is is a g o o d in v e s t m e n t I a ls o w a n t t o p u t i n 2 0 0 m i ll io n . O r f a ir ly s p e a k i n g y o u w o u l d s a y t h is s o u n d s g o o d . A r e y o u e x p e r i e n c e d in t h is k in d o f a n a c ti v i ty a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r t h a n d i f y o u s a y y e s I a m e x p e r i e n c e d I h a v e g o t m a r k e t , I h a v e g o t 2 0 0 m il li o n o v e r a n d a b o v e w h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o i n v e s t y o u m ig h t b e a tt r a c t e d t o e n te r i n t o s u c h a Page 168 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 d e a l C h a ir p e r s o n . B u t i n i n s ta n c e s w h e r e b y y o u d o n o t b r i n g a n y t h in g then it becomes a problem. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . But also why should you take my word for it? W h y s h o u ld y o u n o t – i f y o u d o n o t h a v e t h e k n o w le d g e o r e x p e r ti s e t o m a k e a n a s s e s s m e n t w h e t h e r I h a v e th e e x p e r t is e a n d k n o w l e d g e t h a t t h e y – t h a t I s a y I h a v e . W h y d o y o u n o t g o t o s o m e b o d y e l s e a n d s a y, m a k e a n a s s e s s m e n t o f th is p e r s o n w h o w a n t s m e t o s p e n d m i l li o n s o n a c e r ta i n p r o je c t a n d s a y s h e h a s a l o t o f e x p e r i e n c e a n d h e w i ll p u t i n s o m e m o n e y a s w e l l . J u s t g i v e m e a n a s s e s s m e n t ? Is t h i s p e r s o n th e 10 r ig h t k i n d o f p e r s o n to b e i n v o l v e d w i th ? D o th e y h a v e th is – th e k i n d o f e x p e r ti s e a n d e x p e r i e n c e t h a t i s r e q u ir e d ? Would you not be e x p e c te d to d o t h a t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t is w h y w h e n y o u l o o k a t I t h i n k i t is a p r o fi l e t h e r e is a s t a te m e n t t h a t t h e y h a v e a ls o e n t e r e d i n t o a m e m o r a n d u m o f a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e P a r a s w h ic h – w h i c h h a v e g o t a ll t h e k n o w le d g e in a s f a r – w h i c h a r e a c tu a l ly l e a d i n g . Th a t – I a m j u s t g i v i n g w h a t – w h a t I h a v e a ls o c h e c k e d a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r th . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : S o b y s o d o i n g y o u a r e s a y in g , o k a y I h a v e g o t th is o n e b u t I a ls o h a v e t h is o n e h a s p a r t n e r e d w it h t h i s o n e t h a t I r e c o g n i s e , t h a t I r e s p e c t w h o is a c tu a l ly i n th e b i g l e a g u e a n d s o o n a n d s o f o r th . S o th o s e a r e s o m e o f th e t h i n g s . I a m j u s t g i v i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e p e r s p e c ti v e C h a i r p e r s o n a s y o u Page 169 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 have requested me to do. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O th e r t h a n t h a t I d o n o t s e e a n y o th e r r e a s o n C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t te ll m e y o u a r e n o w A c t i n g H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d m a y b e b y v i r t u e o f t h a t p o s i ti o n y o u h a v e – y o u n o w h a v e a c c e s s t o s o m e d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e h a d a c c e s s t o a s C h ie f D i r e c t o r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I n r e g a r d t o th is p r o j e c t . To y o u r k n o w l e d g e i s th e r e a n y d o c u m e n t i n t h e c u s to d y o r p o s s e s s i o n o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t w h ic h s h o w s o r w h ic h c a m e fr o m P a r a s s i g n e d b y P a r a s p e o p le , l e g i t i m a te ly in t e r m s o f w h ic h t h e y s a id th e y w e r e p a r ty t o t h is w h o l e a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h Es t in a ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : No I have never seen one myself C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e n e v e r s e e n o n e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I h a v e n e v e r s e e n o n e b u t I h a v e s e e n t h e s t a te m e n t i n t h e p r o fil e a n d w h e r e i s s a y s , E s ti n a h a v e j u s t e n t e r e d 20 in t o a M e m o r a n d u m o f A g r e e m e n t w i t h th e P a r a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s b u t I h a v e n e v e r s e e n t h e Memorandum of Agreement between Paras and Estina. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I n – in . CHAIRPERSON: Do you… Page 170 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: In f a c t C h a ir m a n i f i t m i g h t a s s i s t y o u p a g e 2 8 4 o f t h e r e f e r e n c e b u n d l e A h a s g o t a M e m o r a n d u m o f U n d e r s t a n d in g n o t A g r e e m e n t – U n d e r s t a n d i n g s i g n e d b y Es t in a a n d P a r a s . T h i s d o c u m e n t w a s s u b m i t t e d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t . I t i s b u n d le . CHAIRPERSON: What page? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : R e fe r e n c e b u n d l e A p a g e 2 8 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: B u t t h e e s s e n c e o f t h is M e m o r a n d u m o f U n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir m a n a s I h a v e r e a d it is t h a t i t i s v a l i d fo r o n e 10 y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: I t i s s ig n e d – i t i s a c tu a l ly – if y o u lo o k a t page … C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u l o o k i n g a t it a s w e l l? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : 2 9 5 C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y a r e y o u a ls o l o o k i n g a t i t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s I a m lo o k in g a t i t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: 20 P a g e 2 9 5 h a s t h e s i g n a t u r e s b u t t h e d a t e is n o t le g i b le . CHAIRPERSON: 295? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : 2 9 5 C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I s e e y e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Oh Chairman if you go M e m o r a n d u m o f U n d e r s ta n d i n g is d a t e d 11 A p r i l 2 0 1 2 . Page 171 of 217 to 285 this 11 A p r i l 2 0 1 2 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 page 285. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o it i s a n A p r il 2 0 1 2 d o c u m e n t. T h e p a r t i e s t o t h is d o c u m e n t a r e P a r a s a n d E s t in a . authorised signatory for E s ti n a and M s S a n j e e v G a u ta m i s h e Mr G a je n d e r Kumar is the a u t h o r i s e d s i g n a t u r e f o r P a r a s w h i c h i s a ls o k n o w n a s V R S Fo o d s Limited. Page 295. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t o – n o w h a v e y o u s e e n th is d o c u m e n t b e f o r e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o C h a ir p e r s o n n o I h a v e n o t. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e s e e i n g i t f o r t h e fir s t t i m e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o C h a i r I a m s e e in g it f o r t h e fir s t ti m e t h i s o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w o b v io u s ly y o u h a v e – y o u h a v e lo o k e d a t i t Ms Gcabashe? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I h a v e – I h a v e C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. D o e s it i n s u b s t a n c e o r e ff e c t s a y th a t P a r a s a n d E s ti n a a r e e n t e r in g i n t o p a r t n e r s h i p o r s o m e c o r p o r a ti o n r e l a ti n g t o t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t – Vr e d e F a r m D a ir y P r o j e c t ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I t d o e s C h a i r m a n . It s a y s t h a t t h e y w i ll e n t e r 20 in t o a n a s s o c ia t io n th a t – t h e y d o n o t c a l l i t a p a r tn e r s h ip . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S o E s t i n a w o u l d b e s i m il a r t o a n a g e n t a s a n d w h e n t h e y n e e d e d e x p e r t is e t h e y w o u ld a s k t h e P a r a s p e o p le t o a s s i s t t h e m w i th t h e ir e x p e r t is e . T h a t i s t h e e s s e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s g e n e r a l. Is it g e n e r a l ? Page 172 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: It is. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s n o t s p e c i fi c t o th is p a r ti c u la r p r o j e c t ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I t i s t o th e e x te n t C h a i r m a n a t 2 8 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t i t s a y s t h a t E s ti n a a t p a r a g r a p h B – s o you have an A, B and C. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I t s a y s t h a t E s ti n a – th ir d li n e w e ll Es t in a w il l p l a y a n a c tiv e r o l e i n id e n ti fy in g a n d s e c u r i n g o p p o r t u n i ti e s i n th e 10 t e r r i t o r y b e i n g S o u th A f r i c a a n d th e c o m p a n y w i ll a s s i s t Es t in a w it h t h e t e c h n o l o g y a n d c o m m i s s i o n i n g o f th o s e id e n ti fi e d o p p o r t u n i t ie s . CHAIRPERSON: J a t h a t s t il l d o e s n o t s a y a n y th i n g a b o u t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r p r o j e c t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : I k n o w t h e y d o – t h e y d o m e n t i o n t h e d a ir y … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : J a . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e y d o C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h h a v e y o u p ic k e d i t u p s o m e w h e r e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 20 Ye s I h a v e p ic k e d it u p s o m e w h e r e w h e r e th e y a r e s a y i n g – t h e c o m p a n y h a s b e e n – t h a t is A u n d e r … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Th a t is u n d e r. It says the company h a s b e e n i n t h e b u s in e s s o f i m p le m e n ti n g D a ir y P r o j e c ts a n d p r o d u c ti o n a n d m a r k e t in g o f t h e d a ir y p r o d u c ts . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : C h a ir m a n i f I m i g h t b e o f a s s is t a n c e ? P a g e Page 173 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 2 8 7 t h e p r o d u c t m e a n s a d a ir y p r o je c t a n d d a i r y p r o d u c ts . T h e p r o j e c t r e fe r s to t h e s tr a t e g i c p a r t n e r s h i p b e t w e e n Es t in a a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t i n t h e F r e e S t a t e Pr o v i n c e o f S o u th A fr ic a to i m p l e m e n t a d a ir y p r o j e c t i n t h e p r o v i n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y s o a t le a s t th a t i s s p e c if ic . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u m a d e t h e p o i n t t h a t it is fo r o n e y e a r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: I t is a o n e y e a r. My r e a d i n g o f i t a t t h e t i m e it is . 10 CHAIRPERSON: A n d th e p r o je c t w a s g o in g t o b e f o r a m u c h l o n g e r period. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A t h r e e y e a r p r o j e c t C h a ir m a n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h r e e y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d C h a ir m a n t h e q u e s ti o n y o u r e a ll y a s k a t t h e o u t s e t i s – is th e r e a d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e k n o w c o m e s fr o m P a r a s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d c a n b e a u th e n tic a t e d b y P a r a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . J a t h a t is t h e – 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h a t is y o u r q u e s ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e e v e n – e v e n t h o u g h t h e r e m ig h t – t h e r e m i g h t b e s o m e b o d y ’s s i g n a t u r e h e r e w h o p u r p o r ts t o b e a d i r e c t o r. W e ll I s e e it j u s t s a y s d ir e c t o r. A n d t h e n t h e r e is s o m e t h in g w r i t t e n I d o n o t k n o w w h a t. S o t h e q u e s ti o n is w a s t h is a u th e n tic a t e d ? W a s t h i s a u t h e n t ic a te d ? D id a n y b o d y d o t h e i r h o m e w o r k t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o Page 174 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 b e d o n e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t P a r a s w a s p a r ty t o th is a g r e e m e n t a n d w o u ld p r o v i d e ? A s f a r a s y o u k n o w a r e y o u a b le t o i n d ic a t e w h e th e r a n y b o d y d i d th a t k i n d o f h o m e w o r k ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o C h a ir p e r s o n I a m u n a b l e t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e u n a b l e to s a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u h a v e n o t s e e n a n y t h in g i n t h e r e c o r d s r e l a ti n g t o t h is p r o j e c t th a t te ll s y o u t h a t th a t h o m e w o r k w a s d o n e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 N o , n o C h a ir p e r s o n . Ex c e p t th e m e n ti o n i n g o f P a r a s . CHAIRPERSON: Paras yes. Do we even know whether the Department k n e w w h o P a r a s w a s o t h e r t h a n w h a t t h e y m a y h a v e b e e n to ld e i t h e r b y E s ti n a p e o p l e o r b y t h o s e w h o m a y h a v e s u p p o r t e d t h e id e a o f th is project? D o w e k n o w a n y t h i n g a l o n g t h o s e l in e s ? Do you know a n y th in g fr o m y o u r s e l f ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o , n o C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : D o y o u k n o w a s a f a c t t h a t M r P e t e r Th a b e t h e 20 v is it e d In d i a to g o a n d s p e a k t o t h e P a r a s p e o p l e a t P a r a s ? Do you k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t th a t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e ll I d o n o t k n o w f r o m t h e l e g a l t e a m a n d t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s id e b u t i t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t t h a t c o m m u n i c a t io n w i t h P a r a s b e m a d e s o t h a t th e y c a n s a y w h e t h e r t h e y k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t Page 175 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t h is . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: C h a i r m a n a l e t te r w a s w r i t t e n t o P a r a s i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a b o u t i f n o t t h r e e w e e k s a g o i n th a t r e g i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : L a s t I k n e w w e w e r e s t il l w a it i n g f o r th e m t o respond. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h a t t h e m e d ia h a s in f e r r e d is t h a t P a r a s h a s d e n ie d c o m p l e t e l y h a v in g a n y t h i n g to d o w i t h t h i s d a i r y fa r m . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : O r w it h S o u th A fr ic a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: But we have sent a letter out. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: C h a ir m a n a s t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d w e a r e w a i ti n g f o r a r e s p o n s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h a t w e h a v e a ls o d o n e C h a ir m a n is tr y t o fi n d o u t if t h is p a r t ic u l a r M r K u m a r m ig h t h a v e b e e n i n th e c o u n tr y i n 20 A p r il o f 2 0 1 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : A n d t h e r e f o r e h e s ig n e d t h is d o c u m e n t w h i le h e w a s i n S o u th A fr ic a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: In April of 2012. Page 176 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: W e w il l b e c o m i n g b a c k w i t h th e in f o r m a ti o n that we source. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Mr P e te r T h a b e t h e r e a ll y i s t h e p e r s o n w h o c a n a s s i s t w it h m u c h o f t h i s i n fo r m a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o f c o u r s e a ls o i t is n e c e s s a r y to ju s t c h e c k w i t h P a r a s w h e t h e r t h e y h a d a n y b o d y b y th a t n a m e a r o u n d t h a t ti m e ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W e h a v e g o o g l e d C h a i r m a n a n d y e s i f i t i s – if 10 h e is n o t th e f o u n d e r h e is t h e s e n i o r p e r s o n in P a r a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y w e ll t h a t is … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : M r K u m a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s h o p e G o o g le is r e l ia b l e e n o u g h . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : W h ic h is w h y th e i n v e s ti g a to r s h a v e th r o u g h the secretariat. C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e s e n t a l e tt e r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : S e n t a p r o p e r le t t e r o u t . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e . ADV 20 LEAH GCABASHE: Making e n q u ir ie s on behalf of the c o m m i s s io n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y th a t is f i n e . B u t w h a t is i m p o r t a n t i s t h a t th e A c ti n g H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t e v e n t h o u g h h e m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n a c ti n g H e a d a t th a t t i m e th e A c ti n g H e a d w h o h a s a c c e s s t o a ll t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t in s o f a r a s t h i s p r o je c t m a y b e c o n c e r n e d s a y s h e h a s n o t c o m e a c r o s s a n y d o c u m e n t t h a t s u g g e s ts t h a t a n y Page 177 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 a u t h e n t ic a ti o n , a u t h e n t ic a ti o n w a s d o n e . O k a y t h a n k y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: C h a ir m a n I h a v e j u s t g o t a f e w s h o r t q u e s t io n s le f t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e fir s t b e i n g D o c t o r M a s i t e n g d o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h e r e g is tr a t i o n o f M a h o m a - M o b u n g P T Y L i m i t e d a s a c o m p a n y o n t h e 11 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I d o n o t k n o w t h a t . I o n ly l e a r n t fr o m w h e n y o u w e r e a s k i n g m e C h a ir m a n it w a s f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e . 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE: Ye s t h a t i s fi n e . Do you know of Mr Kamal Va s r a m h e i s t h e D ir e c t o r, s o le d i r e c t o r o f E s ti n a ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I w a s in tr o d u c e d t o Mr K a m a l b y t h e H a w k s o n th e 1 4 t h a n d th e 1 5 t h . I d o n o t k n o w h i m . I t w a s f o r t h e fi r s t ti m e I s e e t h a t p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: 14th and 15th of when this month? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o i t w a s th e 1 4 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W h e n t h e Va l e n ti n e ’s D a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d a ls o I m e t t h e o t h e r g r o u p o n th e 1 5 t h th a t w a s o n my s o n ’s b ir th d a y a n d t h a t w a s f o r th e f ir s t ti m e I s e e t h e f a m ily r e la t e d t o th e G u p t a ’s i t w a s f o r t h e fi r s t t i m e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: In court D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I n ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h is w a s i n c o u r t ? Page 178 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t w a s in c o u r t . Ye s I w a s t a k e n t o J o h a n n e s b u r g w h e r e t h e r e w a s o th e r g r o u p s – th a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g I w a s in t r o d u c e d to t h e G u p t a ’s b y t h e H a w k s . I h a v e n e v e r s e e n t h e m a ft e r t h a t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: D o y o u k n o w o f M r C h a n d r a m a Pr a s a d w h o is r e p u t e d t o h a v e b e e n t h e p r o je c t o ff ic e r o f E s ti n a ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: At the farm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s th e r e w a s a v i s i t I m a d e a n d t h e n 10 I fo u n d h i m t h e r e a s a p r o j e c t m a n a g e r a n d a ls o t o t h e o ff ic e s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t h e a ls o w e n t t h e r e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: N o w t h e r e i s a w it n e s s w h o w i ll c o m e a n d s a y t h a t M r P r a s a d k n o w n o th i n g a b o u t d a i r y a n d t h a t E s ti n a a s a n I T c o m p a n y k n e w n o t h i n g a b o u t d a ir y. Was that your assessment when y o u v i s i t e d t h e f a r m a n d f o u n d Mr P r a s a d t h e r e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A t t h a t ti m e th e r e w e r e I t h i n k th e r e w a s a v e t a ls o w h o h a d a n e x p e r i e n c e o n t h e a n i m a l s id e . I t h i n k i n m y o p i n i o n I w a s q u i t e h a p p y w i t h t h e w a y h e w a s e x p l a i n i n g , a n a ly s i n g t h e d is e a s e s a n d w h a t h e i s d e a li n g w it h a n d s o o n . B u t w it h Pr a s a d I d i d 20 n o t s e e a n y d a ir y e x c e p t a m a n a g e r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE: The person who was e x p l a n a t io n w a s t h e v e t n o t P r a s a d ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W a s th e v e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll M r J a n k i e l s o h n , J a n k ie ls o h n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . Page 179 of 217 g iv in g you an 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: I n d ic a t e d w h e n h e g a v e e v i d e n c e t h a t Es t in a w a s a c t u a ll y a n I T c o m p a n y. I t w a s – i t h a d n o th in g t o d o w i th – w it h f a r m in g a n d w i t h y o u k n o w d a ir y f a r m i n g . D o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t that? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n I a ls o l e a r n t a b o u t t h a t. Q u i t e f r a n k ly I w a s n o t a w a r e u n t il I s a w i t o n th e m e d i a a n d s o o n a n d s o fo r t h b u t I w a s n o t a w a r e a t a ll a b o u t t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : T h e n th e r e i s Mr As h o o k N a r a y a n w h o i s s a i d t o h a v e b e e n a n e c o n o m i c a d v is o r in t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff ic e . Have you met him? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I s tr u g g le t o e v e n – A s h o o k I m i g h t h a v e m e t h i m b u t n o t m a y b e li k e d i s c u s s i n g o r w h a t e v e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u a r e t h e A c ti n g H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t n o w w o u ld i t s h o c k y o u if s o m e b o d y in y o u r d e p a r t m e n t g a v e a d a i r y f a r m in g p r o j e c t to a n I T c o m p a n y o r i s i t – o r n o t n e c e s s a r ily ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : To i m p le m e n t? C H A I R P E R S O N : To d o w h a t Es t in a w a s s u p p o s e d t o d o h e r e . 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n i f I – I – l e t m e p u t i t l ik e t h is . I f y o u g iv e it t o a p e r s o n w h o d o e s n o t h a v e t h a t e x p e r i e n c e t h e r e m u s t b e a n a s s u r a n c e t h a t t h a t p e r s o n w il l p r o j e c t m a n a g e a n d u s e t h e e x p e r t is e to i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o je c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o r m a lly w o u l d t h e p o s i t io n n o t b e t h a t y o u w o u ld w a n t to g i v e a j o b t o s o m e b o d y w h o h a s th a t e x p e r ti s e a n d e x p e r i e n c e ? Page 180 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : P r e f e r a b l y C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . If y o u d e v i a te d fr o m t h a t t h e r e w o u l d h a v e t o b e p r o p e r j u s ti f ic a ti o n w h ic h c o u l d h a p p e n m a y b e w h e r e y o u w a n t to g iv e p e o p l e w h o h a v e n o t b e e n g iv e n o p p o r t u n i ti e s b e f o r e b u t th e n y o u t a k e p r e c a u t io n s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e jo b w i ll b e d o n e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o a s w e t a lk – a s w e s p e a k n o w d o y o u k n o w o f a n y ju s ti fi c a t io n w h y a n I T c o m p a n y c o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n a jo b f o r a d a i r y – d a ir y f a r m i n g ? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : M y a p o l o g y o n c e a g a in C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s n o t i n th e p ic t u r e a t a l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u n o w h a v e r e c o r d s . Yo u a r e th e Ac t in g H e a d . Yo u h a v e a c c e s s to t h e r e c o r d . D o e s i t lo o k lik e t h e r e w a s j u s ti f ic a ti o n t o g iv e t h i s j o b t o Es t in a ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C h a i r p e r s o n e x c e p t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y a r e a l s o b r i n g i n g in th e ir c o n tr i b u ti o n a n d t h e y h a v e p a r tn e r e d w it h a m u c h m o r e e x p e r ie n c e d s tr a te g ic p a r tn e r i n th e f o r m o f P a r a s o t h e r w is e 20 there is nothing that I can deduce. CHAIRPERSON: But are you saying because they were going to spend t h e ir o w n m o n e y o n t h e p r o j e c t a n d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e r e ly in g o n P a r a s w h o w a s s a i d t o h a v e t h e e x p e r ti s e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Because of th a t you Page 181 of 217 would say there was 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ju s t i fic a ti o n ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I w o u l d s a y y e s t h e r e w a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s r e a s o n s f o r – t o c o n s id e r. CHAIRPERSON: Th a t is a s s u m in g t h a t P a r a s h a s th e e x p e r ti s e a n d t h a t i n d e e d i t w a s p a r ty t o t h e p r o je c t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : D e f i n i t e ly C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A n d y o u w o u ld h a v e a u t h e n ti c – y o u w o u ld h a v e m a d e s u r e y o u a u t h e n t ic a t e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e th e r P a r a s is r e a ll y p a r ty to t h i s t h i n g . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d I w o n d e r w h e t h e r in a d d i ti o n th e D e p a r t m e n t w o u ld h a v e w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t P a r a s a ls o s i g n s in t o s o m e d o c u m e n ts ju s t o t h e r t h a n h a v i n g t h e i r o w n a r r a n g e m e n t w it h E s t i n a . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s y o u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: 20 So that – so that – because if Paras has an a r r a n g e m e n t o r a g r e e m e n t w i t h E s ti n a o n ly – i f t h e y h a v e a fi g h t a n d P a r a s p u ll s o u t y o u w i ll n o t k n o w n e c e s s a r ily. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t n o t k n o w. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y k n o w, y o u m ig h t n o t k n o w. W h e r e a s i f P a r a s Page 182 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 h a s s i g n e d s o m e t h i n g w i t h y o u a s w e ll t h e n y o u h a v e a w a y o f k n o w i n g w h e n t h e y h a v e p u ll e d o u t a n d t h e n y o u k n o w w e c a n n o t c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e s e o n e s a lo n e b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t h a v e t h e e x p e r t is e . DR TA N K I S I JANKI MASITENG: I agree with your a n a ly s is C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE: C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t – a ls o in t e r e s ti n g is t h e f a c t th a t th e F D C t o o k o v e r a f t e r E s ti n a l e f t . W a s t h e F D C th e ty p e o f e n t i ty th a t c o u ld d o t h e w o r k y o u e x p e c te d t o b e d o n e a t t h e fa r m ? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I f w e l o o k a t th e E X C O m e m o r a n d u m a ls o t h e w h o l e i d e a o f b r i n g i n g F D C i t w a s to i n s ti l a b u s in e s s e l e m e n t in t o th e p r o j e c ts i ts e l f . T h a t w a s t h e m a i n p u r p o s e a n d a l s o i f y o u l o o k a t t h e [i n d i s t i n c t ] p r o c e s s i n g v a l u e a d d i n g t h a t is p a r tl y t h e m a n d a t e a ls o o f t h e F D C . S o F D C w a s b r o u g h t i n t o a c tu a lly i n s ti l t h a t e le m e n t o f b u s in e s s s o t h a t t h e p r o j e c t c a n s u s t a i n i ts e lf . T h e p r o je c t c a n b e g i n t o d o w h a t is in t e n d e d f o r – th a t i s to b e n e fi t t h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s a n d a l s o t o b e n e fi t o t h e r m i lk p r o d u c e r s . B e c a u s e t h e i d e a w a s t o s e e t o i t t h a t t h e p r o c e s s i n g p la n t i s i n o p e r a ti o n s o t h a t y o u c a n b e g i n to c o ll e c t t h e m il k a n d p r o c e s s i t t h e r e a n d s u p p ly t h e s c h o o l f e e d i n g s c h e m e s . 20 T h o s e w e r e t h e t h in g s w h ic h I a m s a y in g th e w h o le id e a w a s a c t u a ll y very good. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l o n c e E s t in a h a d p u l le d o u t I a s s u m e t h a t th a t m e a n t P a r a s a ls o p u l li n g o u t to th e e x t e n t t h a t P a r a s m a y h a v e b e e n p a r t o f t h e p r o je c t. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 183 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: N o w P a r a s w a s r e l ie d u p o n f o r t h e e x p e r ti s e a n d e x p e r i e n c e r e q u ir e d t o r u n t h i s p r o je c t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t r ig h t ? W h o r e m a i n e d w h o h a d t h e e x p e r t is e a n d e x p e r i e n c e t h a t P a r a s h a d p r o v id e d a s fa r a s y o u k n o w ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t w a s th e p r o je c t m a n a g e r. B e c a u s e th e p r o j e c t m a n a g e r … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E : Is t h a t M r Pr a s a d ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s th e C P c o n t in u e d w i t h th e F D C . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E: B u t M r P r a s a d h a d n o q u a li f ic a t i o n i n d a ir y o r d a ir y f a r m i n g . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s I a m ju s t s a y i n g fr o m t h a t m o v e m e n t o f Es t in a n o w o u t y o u h a d a p r o j e c t m a n a g e r b y th e n a m e o f P r a s a d . N o w P r a s a d F D C is t a k i n g o v e r. Yo u s ti ll h a v e P r a s a d . I a m ju s t r e s p o n d i n g t o t h a t o n e . B u t in t e r m s o f w h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w a n ts t o f i n d o u t I w o u l d s a y – I w o u l d g o b a c k to y o u r a n a ly s is a n d s a y if w e d i d h a v e a d o c u m e n t th a t a l s o [ in d is ti n c t ] l ik e w e w e r e g o i n g t o b e in th e p o s it i o n to s a y y o u c a n g o b u t r e m e m b e r w e s ti ll h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h y o u , y o u n e e d to c o m p l e t e th e f o l l o w in g o u ts ta n d i n g 20 a c ti v i ti e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t m y q u e s ti o n is a s li g h t ly d i ffe r e n t o n e . E s ti n a h a s p u l l e d o u t . W it h E s t i n a p u l li n g o u t P a r a s p u ll e d o u t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . Page 184 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e e x p e r t is e o n t h e b a s is o f w h ic h th e e x p e r t is e th a t P a r a s w a s th o u g h t to b r i n g i n is n o w g o n e . W h o r e m a i n e d o r w h o w a s t h e r e i n r e g a r d to t h e p r o j e c t w i th t h e e x p e r ti s e a n d e x p e r i e n c e t h a t w a s r e q u i r e d w h ic h w o u ld t a k e t h e p l a c e o f P a r a s ? Wa s th e r e anybody? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : No. That is why I am saying C h a ir p e r s o n t h e o n ly p e o p le w h o r e m a i n e d w e r e th e p e o p l e w h o w e r e p a r t o f t h a t le t u s c a l l i t p a r t n e r s h i p o f E s ti n a P a r a s t h a t t h e w h o le t e a m t h a t w a s w o r k i n g t h e n w a s n e v e r s o u g h t o f r e l i e v e d w i t h Es t in a . 10 They remained with the FDC. CHAIRPERSON: B u t d id t h e y h a v e t h e e x p e r ti s e – t h e n e c e s s a r y e x p e r t is e a n d e x p e r ie n c e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : E x c e p t t h e e x p e r ie n c e h a v in g l e a r n t – h a v i n g s t a r te d w i t h t h e p r o je c t b u t t h e e x p e r ti s e a n d s o o n I d o n o t t h i n k th e y h a d t h a t e x p e r tis e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Do you… D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 20 B e c a u s e t h e e x p e r t is e w i ll i n c l u d e a ls o t h e is s u e s o f m a r k e t i n g a n d s o o n a n d s o fo r t h . CHAIRPERSON: D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r s i n c e t h e n b e c a u s e I w a s to ld t h a t th e p r o j e c t c o n t i n u e s . D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r s i n c e t h e n s t e p s h a v e b e e n t a k e n t o e n s u r e th a t t h e p r o j e c t h a s t h e e x p e r tis e o r e x p e r i e n c e t h a t i s r e q u ir e d fo r i t t o o p e r a te v i a b ly ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n w h a t w e d i d in t e r m s Page 185 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 o f a ls o t h e c o u r t o r d e r t h e D e p a r t m e n t i s n o w in c h a r g e o f th e p r o j e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t is in l in e w i t h t h e c o u r t o r d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . DR TA N K I S I JANKI MASITENG: We have a senior managers r e s p o n s i b l e f o r r e s e a r c h a n d a l s o s o m e o f o u r r e s e a r c h e r s th e y a r e th e o n e w h o a r e n o w a s s is t in g o n t h e d a ir y p r o je c t . CHAIRPERSON: S o n o w th e n e c e s s a r y e x p e r t is e a n d e x p e r i e n c e is there? 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Is t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H a v e y o u r l e a r n e d fr i e n d s f o u n d t h e d o c u m e n t they were looking for? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No they have not. C h a ir m a n a n d I m u s t a p o l o g is e . They have not I know we have seen that document a n d D r M a s i te n g k n o w s t h a t w e h a v e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I k n o w ja . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 20 B u t I t h in k C h a ir m a n i t is a f a i r q u e s t io n t o a s k h i m ju s t t o g iv e y o u a s u m m a r y o f w h a t h e t h o u g h t t h e d e v ia t io n c o u l d e n t a i l. W h a t … ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l d i d y o u s a y it is i n t h e b u n d le ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s n o t i n t h i s b u n d l e C h a ir m a n … C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t i n th is b u n d l e … ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: But I … Page 186 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a n y o f th e b u n d l e s ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: O r a n y o f th e b u n d l e s t h a t y o u h a v e C h a ir m a n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d I d o a p o l o g is e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Because I am very sure that we have that document. C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll … 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o m e w h e r e i n t h e o t h e r d o c u m e n ta t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I s a w y o u h o l d in g s o m e d o c u m e n t t h e r e . Is it the document? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. T h e n c o p ie s c a n – c a n b e m a d e . H a v e y o u s e e n i t i n a n y o f t h e b u n d le s t h a t y o u l o o k e d a t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Okay but you – but you – you have got – is there a copy? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: D r M a s i te n g ? W h ic h d o c u m e n t a r e y o u r e f e r r i n g to I ju s t w a n t to b e s u r e w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t th e s a m e document. CHAIRPERSON: Well somebody can just … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e o n e – t h e r e w a s … Page 187 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o w it t o y o u . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Th e r e was a q u e s ti o n fr o m th e C h a ir p e r s o n th a t h a d tw o s u b m is s io n s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e s e c o n d o n e t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : D e a ls w i t h t h e d e v i a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is t h e o n e n o w … 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s l o o k in g fo r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n I a m s a t is fi e d i t is t h e c o r r e c t o n e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O k a y. C a n I h a v e a lo o k a t th e d o c u m e n t – a t y o u r c o p y ? I w i ll b r in g i t b a c k . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a ir m a n , c a n I a s k h i m t w o s h o r t q u e s t io n s C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t w e c a n j u s t d is p o s e o f . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is fi n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: M r D h la m i n i r e f e r r e d t o y o u i n h i s e v i d e n c e y e s te r d a y a n d s a i d y o u h a d m e t h i m a n d s p o k e n t o h i m o u t s i d e th e h a l l ju s t b e f o r e a m e e ti n g . D o y o u c o n f ir m th a t t h a t d is c u s s io n d i d t a k e p l a c e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s I c o n fir m t h a t . Page 188 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w h a t w a s th a t d is c u s s i o n a b o u t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W h e n I a r r iv e d th e r e I w a s i n fo r m e d t h a t – r e m e m b e r i t w a s f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e I m e t w i th t h e g r o u p a n d I w a s in f o r m e d t h a t Mr D h l a m in i is a c t u a ll y t h e o n e w h o i s – w h o is l e a d in g t h e g r o u p a n d I c o u l d s e n s e t h a t t h e v e n u e is t o o s m a ll a n d I t h e n s a id o k a y i t i s fi n e . R e q u e s t M r D h l a m in i t o c o m e h e r e s o t h a t w e c a n a g r e e on the venue. I w a s a l i t tl e b i t s u r p r is e d o n t h e i s s u e s o f t h e – w e – w e d o n o t w h e r e d o y o u b e l o n g t o w i th th e f a r m e r s . N o t a t a ll . Yo u a r e n o t 10 a l lo w e d t o d o th a t a s G o v e r n m e n t O ff ic i a l s . I t d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h ic h p o li t ic a l p a r ty a r e y o u a ff il ia t e d t o . W h a t is f u n d a m e n ta l is t h e s e r v ic e t h a t y o u a r e r e q u e s ti n g . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e n t h e o t h e r i m p o r t a n t a s p e c t is th e B e n e f ic ia r y A g r e e m e n t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: The C h a ir m a n was i n t e r e s te d in u n d e r s t a n d in g h o w y o u c a m e t o s ig n th a t B e n e fi c i a r y A g r e e m e n t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A s s o o n a s t h e C h a ir m a n fi n is h e s r e a d i n g 20 c a n y o u p l e a s e g iv e h i m a n e x p l a n a t i o n ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: C o p i e s o f th e - t h e d o c u m e n t w il l b e m a d e a n d I s u g g e s t t h a t w e – w e m a r k – w e i n c l u d e i t in t h e – i n t h e b u n d l e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n t h e r e f e r e n c e b u n d l e C h a ir m a n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u c a n d e c id e w h e th e r i n h is – i n t h e – i n t h e Page 189 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 fi le t h a t h a s g o t h is s t a t e m e n t o r in t h e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e b u t it s h o u l d b e i n c l u d e d . I t i s i m p o r ta n t b u t I j u s t w a n t t o a s k s o m e q u e s t io n s . I s e e D r M a s i t e n g t h a t – ( c l e a r i n g t h r o a t) e x c u s e m e – th e d o c u m e n t is d a t e d 5 J u ly 2 0 1 2 w h i c h I th in k is t h e s a m e d a te … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A s t h e o th e r d o c u m e n t … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t is a d d r e s s e d t o M r M P e t e r T h a b e t h e t h e h e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t A g r i c u l tu r e e x a c tl y t h e s a m e w a y a s t h e o th e r o n e . 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: And in terms of the purpose it appears that it has a t h ir d p u r p o s e w h i c h t h e o t h e r d o c u m e n t d i d n o t h a v e . I s t h a t r i g h t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : E x a c tly C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e f ir s t t w o b u ll e t p o i n ts u n d e r – u n d e r t h e p u r p o s e w o u l d b e t h e s a m e a s t h e o t h e r d o c u m e n t . Is th a t r ig h t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t h ir d p u r p o s e s a y s : 20 “ I t is t o g e t a p p r o v a l fr o m t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t t o d e v i a te f r o m t h e n o r m a l S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e a n d a p p o i n t Es t in a / P a r a s t o i m p le m e n t e s ta b lis h i n t e g r a t e d d a ir y i n Vr e d e . ” Yo u – y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 190 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: And – and on page 2 it says among other things: “ T h e d e p a r t m e n t i n c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h Es t in a / P a r a s h a v e i d e n t i fi e d 4 4 0 0 h e c t a r e s o f m u n ic ip a l l a n d i n Vr e d e . ” And then in the next paragraph it says: “ P a r a s in v o lv e m e n t i n m i lk i n d u s tr y w il l i m p r o v e m il k p r o d u c t iv i ty l o c a l ly, p r o v i n c i a l ly, n a t io n a ll y a n d in t e r n a t io n a l ly. ” T h e n i t s a y s a lo t o f th i n g s a b o u t P a r a s . P a r a s ’ i n v o lv e m e n t 10 in t h e in t e r n a t io n a l ly m a r k e t in c l u d i n g G e r m a n y, Fr a n c e , Tu r k e y, B e lg iu m a n d s o o n a n d t h e n i n t h a t s a m e p a r a g r a p h o n p a g e 2 t h a t is the middle paragraph it says: “ T h e P a r a s a r e in t e r n a t i o n a l r e c o g n is e d a n d w o u ld lik e to m a in t a i n th a t r e c o g n it i o n . It is a g a i n s t th is b a c k g r o u n d th e d e p a r t m e n t is s e e k i n g t o d e v i a te a g a in s t th e n o r m a l S C M p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s a n d e n t e r i n t o a M e m o r a n d u m o f A g r e e m e n t w i th E s ti n a / P a r a s to implement and manage the o p e r a ti o n s o f t h e p r o j e c t d u r i n g i ts l i fe c y c le . ” 20 T h a t is p a r t o f w h a t it s a y s . Th e n – a n d t h e n o n p a g e 3 p a r a g r a p h 4 : “ T h e d e p a r t m e n t h a s s e t a s i d e R 3 0 m il li o n u n d e r Mohuma Mobung in the current 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 f o r t h i s i n i t ia t iv e . fi n a n c ia l y e a r T h e in t e n d e d p e r i o d f o r th e c o m p le t io n o f t h i s i n i t ia t iv e is o v e r a p e r io d of three years.” Page 191 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 Fi v e : “ A l l r e l e v a n t r o l e p la y e r s w ill b e i n fo r m e d a b o u t t h e o u t c o m e o f t h e s u b m i s s io n . ” S ix : “ T h e p a r ti e s c o n s u l t e d t h e e x e c u t iv e m a n a g e m e n t of the Department Development. of A g r i c u l tu r e Phumelela Local and Rural M u n ic ip a li ty M a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f Es t in a / P a r a s . ” T h a t m e a n s a ll th o s e h a v e b e e n c o n s u l t e d a n d th e n u n d e r 10 p a r a g r a p h 7 t h e h e a d i n g is “ A u t h o r i ty f o r A p p r o v a l ” . Th e n i t s a y s : “ T h e A u t h o r i ty o f A p p r o v a l is v e s t e d in t h e h e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e . ” P a r a g r a p h 4 - t h e r e is r e c o m m e n d a t i o n . T h a t is n o w e i g h t . “ I t i s r e c o m m e n d e d th a t a p p r o v a l i s g r a n t e d b y t h e head of department to:” B u ll e t p o i n t 1 : “ A c c e p t t h e p r o p o s a l fr o m E s ti n a / P a r a s w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e e s ta b l is h m e n t o f in t e g r a t e d d a i r y i n Vr e d e and …” 20 B u ll e t p o i n t 2 : “Enter in t o a Memorandum E s ti n a / P a r a s t o of Agreement i m p l e m e n t th e in t e g r a t e d with dairy p r o j e c t i n Vr e d e . ” B u ll e t p o i n t 3 : “ To deviate fr o m the normal Page 192 of 217 s u p p ly chain 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a n d p r o c e d u r e a n d a p p o in t E s ti n a / P a r a s to i m p le m e n t e s ta b lis h i n te g r a te d d a ir y in Vr e d e . ” A n d th e n b e l o w t h a t is – a r e th r e e b l o c k s s i m il a r t o th e o n e s w e s a w i n r e g a r d to t h e – i n th e o th e r d o c u m e n t . T h e fir s t b l o c k s a y s : “ S u b m i t te d b y ” A n d t h e n t h e r e is a s i g n a t u r e a n d t h e n s a y s : “ D r T J M a s it e n g G M D is tr ic t S e r v ic e s . ” T h e n t h e n e x t b lo c k s a y s : “Recommended/Not recommended” 10 A n d n o t r e c o m m e n d e d is c r o s s e d o u t w h ic h m e a n s i t h a s b e e n r e c o m m e n d e d a n d th e r e i s a s ig n a tu r e a n d i t s a y s : “Ms S Dlamini CFO DARD.” The next block says: “Approved/Not approved” A n d t h e r e is a s ig n a t u r e a n d i t s a y s : “ M r P M T h a b e th e H O D A g r ic u l t u r e . ” N o w I – I h a v e s a id t h a t u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 8 th e r e is a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n there. 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is m a k in g th a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t is – i t i s t h e C F O . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . N o , n o . T h a t is b e f o r e t h e b l o c k . I k n o w y o u d o n o t h a v e t h e b e n e f it o f … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O h . Page 193 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: L o o k i n g a t – a t t h e d o c u m e n t b u t a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t fr o m t h e b e g in n in g o f t h e d o c u m e n t y o u a r e t h e o n e w h o is s p e a k i n g h e r e . Is i t n o t ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is w r i ti n g h e r e ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. S o y o u a r e s a y in g th e s e t h i n g s o n p a g e 1 a n d page 2? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d p a g e 3 . Yo u a r e s a y i n g a ll o f t h e s e t h i n g s . T h e n w e c o m e to e i g h t . T h e r e is a r e c o m m e n d a t io n u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 8 on page 4 and it says: “ I t is r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t a p p r o v a l i s g r a n t e d … ” D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: “…by the head of department.” D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . I t is g r a n t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : To . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th e r e a r e t h o s e th r e e b u ll e t p o i n ts . 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n a t t h e b o tt o m t h e r e a r e t h o s e t h r e e b lo c k s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: S o I a m a s k i n g t h e q u e s ti o n w h o is m a k in g th a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 8 . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Is t h e H O D . Page 194 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e H O D i s th e o n e w h o is s a y i n g – t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s h e w il l b e s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . I f y o u a r e s a y i n g it is r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t a p p r o v a l is g r a n t e d y e s i t m e a n s th e H O D . CHAIRPERSON: Well … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I f y o u a r e – i f y o u a r e s a y i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n h e b e r e c o m m e n d in g to h i m s e l f ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . M o s t – m o s t p r o b a b ly y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y h e is r e c o m m e n d i n g t o h i m s e l f? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . R e m e m b e r w h a t is h a p p e n i n g w i t h t h is k in d o f s u b m is s i o n s i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t y o u a r e v e r y c le a r a s a n A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r t h a t t h i s is w h a t I c a n r e c o m m e n d . I f … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o b u t – b u t t h e – t h e a c t u a l th e a p p r o v e s I t h o u g h t t h a t w a s t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d o e s t h e a p p r o v a l? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s o f w h a t … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H e is s u p p o r ti n g . Yo u d o n o t ju s t a p p r o v e a n y t h in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t – b u t d o c u m e n t s s u c h a s th is e m a n a t e fr o m a Page 195 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 lo w e r l e v e l . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a n d m a y b e w i t h o u t t a lk i n g a b o u t th is o n e in p a r t ic u l a r b u t g e n e r a l ly th e y w o u l d e m a n a te fr o m a l o w e r le v e l a n d i f t h e r e q u ir e m e n t is t h a t b e f o r e th e y r e a c h t h e H O D th e y m u s t g o th r o u g h – t h r o u g h s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o m u s t m a k e a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Th e n th e p e r s o n w h o i n i t ia t e s t h e d o c u m e n t is a c t u a ll y th e o n e w h o is s e e k i n g a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n fr o m s o m e b o d y a n d u l ti m a t e ly a p p r o v a l fr o m t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t. I a m t a lk i n g g e n e r a l ly n o w. ( I n t e r v e n e s ) . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c l e a r l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t . Yo u a r e 1 0 0 p e r c e n t correct. CHAIRPERSON: And I am correct? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . N o w I a m s a y in g to y o u I a m l o o k i n g a t t h is d o c u m e n t o n t h e b a s i s th a t t h a t w o u ld b e – t h a t w a s ( in d i s ti n c t) a s w e ll . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d t h e n I a s k t h e q u e s ti o n w h o th e r e f o r e w a s m a k i n g t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t is a t p a r a g r a p h 8 . Page 196 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I n t h e n o r ma l p r o c e s s e s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I a m b a c k n o w o n th is d o c u m e n t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O n th is o n e ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t m e a n s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e – t h e C F O i n t h is c a s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 Is now recommending to the A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : And the A c c o u n t in g O ff ic e r is a p p r o v in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t t h e C – t h e C F O d i d n o t w r i te t h e s e t h i n g s here. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : E x a c tly. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e w r i t te n b y s o m e b o d y e ls e . 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . W h a t is h a p p e n i n g i n m o s t cases … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e – s u c h a s u b m is s i o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Cannot be recommended by the CFO Page 197 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I f s h e d o e s n o t h a v e in p u t o n i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t c a n g o to a n d fr o 1 0 ti m e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : U n t il s h e is s a y i n g I a m h a p p y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d t h e s a m e a p p l ie s t o t h e H O D . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : It can – the HOD can even decide to s a y I a m n o m o r e a p p r o v in g i t a n d t h e n r e t u r n i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e i f th e r e w a s n o b l o c k h e r e s a y in g s u b m i t te d b y a n d w i t h s o m e b o d y ’s s ig n a tu r e t h e r e I w o u ld s a y a n d a l l th a t w e h a d w a s th e C F O ’s s i g n a tu r e a n d t h e a p p r o v a l . T h e n I w o u l d s a y th a t I need to look at only the two … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I f I w a n t t o f in d o u t w h o i s s p e a k in g – w h o is s a y i n g i t is r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t a p p r o v a l is g r a n t e d b y th e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t . I 20 w o u ld lo o k a t t h o s e w h o a r e h e r e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : J a . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. N o w t h e f a c t o f th e m a t te r is t h a t t h e r e a r e three people here. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r s e l f, t h e C F O a n d t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t . T h e Page 198 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CFO has recommended. The head of department has approved. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H u h - u h . CHAIRPERSON: S o m y i m p r e s s i o n i s th a t th e p e r s o n w h o is m a k i n g t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a t p a r a g r a p h 8 w o u l d b e t h e c o m p i le r o f t h e - o r t h e p e r s o n w h o s u b m i ts t h e d o c u m e n t . S o I w a n t y o u to c o m m e n t o n t h a t . W h y s h o u ld I n o t r e a d th is a l o n g t h o s e l in e s ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W i th y o u r a n a l y s is t o s a y … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I f f o r in s t a n c e l e t m e s a y I a m r e q u e s t in g a c a r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A s u b s i d i s e d v e h ic le . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e n I – I w il l s u b m i t - i t is n o t e v e n n e c e s s a r y b e c a u s e w e h a v e a p o li c y n o w t o s a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 20 Yo u d o n o t n e e d a h u n d r e d p e o p l e s ig n in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : D o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e y w i ll ju s t m a y b e s u b m i t . I t w i ll g o t o t h e D ir e c t o r. I t w i ll g o t o t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r b u t i t s t il l h a s t o g o t o Page 199 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 the CFO. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Th e C F O is th e l a s t p e r s o n w h o w il l t h e n r e c o m m e n d t o – to th e H O D . Th a t is u n d e r – l e t u s c a t e g o r i s e under a normal … C H A I R P E R S O N : S it u a ti o n . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : S u b m is s i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W h ic h I a m – I w a n t. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t is m e w h o i s r e q u e s ti n g a p e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t is m e w h o i s r e q u e s ti n g a l a p to p . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t l ik e w h e n y o u a r e … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u – w h e n a C h i e f D ir e c t o r w a n t s to g o o n le a v e . M a y b e n o t – l e t u s n o t s a y C h ie f D i r e c t o r a D ir e c to r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 20 When they want to go on leave. Th e C h ie f D ir e c t o r w h o I a s s u m e w o u l d b e t h e ir i m m e d i a te s u p e r i o r … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: W o u ld n e e d t o s i g n w h e t h e r – m a y b e r e c o m m e n d . I d o n o t k n o w. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e y a p p r o v e . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e u lt i m a t e ly s o m e b o d y e ls e m u s t a p p r o v e . Page 200 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e r e a r e d e l e g a t i o n s . CHAIRPERSON: There are delegations. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e C h ie f – in t h i s c a s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : L e t u s s a y it s ta r t s fr o m t h e D e p u ty D ir e c t o r o r th e As s is t a n t D i r e c to r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e D e p u ty D ir e c t o r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W il l r e c o m m e n d o r s u p p o r t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d t h e n t h e D ir e c t o r w i ll a l s o m a y b e say I know … CHAIRPERSON: Or recommend. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : r e c o m m e n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d t h e n t h e C F O s ig n s . The Chief D ir e c t o r i n t h is c a s e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A p p r o v e s . CHAIRPERSON: Approves, yes. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h a t – t h a t is t h e c o n t e x t o f D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h o s e a r e t h e l a d d e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h i c h I a m l o o k i n g a t t h a t y o u h a v e s o m e b o d y w h o is Page 201 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 r e q u e s t in g . Yo u h a v e g o t s o m e b o d y w h o n e e d s a p p r o v a l … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : U l ti m a t e l y … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e p e r s o n w h o h a s t h e a u th o r i ty t o a p p r o v e d o e s n o t w a n t t o o r c a n n o t a p p r o v e u n l e s s s o m e b o d y e ls e h a s r e c o m m e n d e d a n d th e r e f o r e t h e r e is … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e q u e s t o r, t h e r e is a r e c o m m e n d e r a n d t h e r e i s a n 10 a p p r o v e r. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : E x a c tly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t is w h y w e a r e s a y i n g i n m o s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I f i t w a s a c c o r d i n g t o … CHAIRPERSON: Normal. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : L e t u s s a y – n o . I f w e a r e s a y in g w e w a n t to d o a w a y w i t h o t h e r o ffi c i a l s t o s ig n d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W e c o u l d s a y H O D i t is y o u w h o w a n ts t h is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : C o m p i le i t a n d a p p r o v e i t y o u r s e l f … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : B u t i n t h is c a s e t h e H O D h a s g o t th e Page 202 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 powers to say compile it for me. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u c a n n o t ju s t w r i te it a n d s a y h e r e is i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u w i ll s t il l h a v e t o s a y o k a y y o u want it … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e n I a m c o m p il i n g it t o y o u . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t s ti ll h a s t o g o to a n o t h e r p e r s o n … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d t h e n it g o e s t o th e H O D . CHAIRPERSON: S o i s y o u r p o in t th a t a l t h o u g h h e r e i t – i t d o e s lo o k lik e y o u – y o u w e r e m a k in g t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n . Yo u w e r e j u s t d o i n g w h a t th e H O D w a n t e d y o u t o d o ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s w h ic h c o u ld b e a n y p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I n t h is c a s e y e s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n o t t h a t i t w a s s o m e t h i n g c o m i n g f r o m – fr o m y o u . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o n o t a t a ll . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: H e w a n t e d t o a c h i e v e a c e r t a i n o b j e c tiv e a n d h e a s k e d y o u t o p r e p a r e a d o c u m e n t . Yo u p r e p a r e d a d o c u m e n t . H e h a d Page 203 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 t o l d y o u t h a t h e w a s d e v i a ti n g . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: H e th o u g h t t h e r e w e r e e n o u g h g r o u n d s t o d e v ia t e . Yo u m ig h t h a v e h a d a d i ffe r e n t v i e w b u t y o u r a tt i tu d e w a s i t is h i s d e c is i o n a n d I w i ll p r e p a r e t h e d o c u m e n t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n ly p r o b l e m i s j u s t t h a t y o u r n a m e i s t h e r e , y o u r s ig n a tu r e is th e r e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : 10 Ye s . I c o u l d h a v e j u s t c o m p il e d i t , g iv e i t t o h i m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u c o u ld h a v e s a id w e ll I d o n o t w a n t – I c a n p r e p a r e i t fo r y o u b u t … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It w i ll b e i n y o u r n a m e n o t i n m y n a m e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : E x a c tly C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u . L e r a t o t a k e ( i n te r v e n e s ) . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. We found the copies that we had. CHAIRPERSON: 20 Oh have you found it? O h , g iv e i t t o D r M a s i t e n g . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . O k a y, t h a n k y o u . I a m d o n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W e w il l a d d i t to t h e r e f e r e n c e b u n d l e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d s o t h i s d o c u m e n t w e w i ll s i m p ly p a g in a t e p r o p e r ly a n d p u t in y o u r r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e . Page 204 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f I m a y ju s t a s k o n e la s t q u e s t io n a r is in g fr o m t h e q u e s t i o n s y o u h a v e b e e n a s k in g D r M a s i te n g ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Fr o m t h is d o c u m e n t D r M a s i te n g y o u d i d n o t s t a n d t o b e n e f it a n y t h i n g r e a l ly … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o , n o th i n g a t a ll . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: By … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C o m p il in g i t in t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h y o u c o m p il e d i t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y, t h a n k y o u . A r e y o u d o n e ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Th e o n l y o th e r t h i n g y o u w e r e in t e r e s t e d in C h a ir m a n w e r e t h e B e n e fic i a r y A g r e e m e n ts w h i c h w e r e d r a f te d . W e ll w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e p r e p a r e d b y D r M a s i t e n g . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u s ti ll w a n t to h e a r h is v e r s io n o f t h o s e B e n e fic i a r y A g r e e m e n ts . CHAIRPERSON: I – u n l e s s y o u – w e ll y o u h a v e l o o k e d a t th e m . U n l e s s t h e r e - t h e r e i s s o m e th i n g i m p o r t a n t i f th e y a r e t h e r e . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I t – i t w a s r e a lly j u s t w h y t h e y w e r e c o m p il e d i n t h a t p a r tic u la r m a n n e r. S o t h e y h a d n o t s e p a r a t e d th e d i ff e r e n t b e n e fi c i a r i e s . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e c la u s e s d i d n o t r e a ll y m a k e s e n s e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Page 205 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o w h e n M r Ve n t e r w a s h e r e y o u w e r e in t e r r o g a ti n g th a t is s u e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: D r M a s i te n g h a s a n e x p la n a t i o n . Maybe h e s h o u l d g iv e u s a v e r y s h o r t e x p l a n a t io n s o o n r e c o r d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H e h a s g i v e n y o u a n e x p l a n a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. No I think ask – ask him because I have f o r g o t t e n w h a t m y li n e o f q u e s t io n in g w a s , ja . 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o D r M a s i t e n g c o u ld y o u j u s t e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir m a n h o w y o u c a m e t o b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h o s e B e n e f ic i a r y A g r e e m e n t s a n d w h y th e y w e r e d r a f te d i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e y w e r e d r a ft e d . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Th a n k you C h a ir p e r s o n . What h a p p e n e d is th a t a s a c o m p li a n c e is s u e a f t e r a n a p p r o v a l y o u m u s t e n t e r i n t o a B e n e f ic ia r y A g r e e m e n t w i th t h o s e b e n e f ic i a r ie s . T h a t is … CHAIRPERSON: O h . Th a t – is th a t t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s b e t w e e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e p r o je c t s ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct. 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e p r o j e c t w i t h t h e a s s is t a n c e o f t h e b e n e f ic i a r y o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o r r e c t . Th a t is t h e o n e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. N o w I r e m e m b e r, y e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t b o th e r e d y o u a b i t. Page 206 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o w w e ll w h a t w a s s tr a n g e t o m e is w h e n I lo o k e d a t – a t th o s e a g r e e m e n t s a t l e a s t o n e o f th e m t h e y ju s t d i d n o t s e e m t o b e y o u k n o w – s o m e o f t h e a s p e c ts d i d n o t s e e m t o m a k e s e n s e li k e i t w a s b e t w e e n th e d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t . Yo u c a n n o t h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t w i th a p r o j e c t y o u k n o w b u t m a y b e i f w h o e v e r d r a f te d t h e m a n d i f y o u s a y i t i s y o u i t is b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t – I s h o u l d n o t s a y y o u a r e n o t – y o u m i g h t n o t b e a l a w y e r. I d o n o t k n o w a l l y o u r q u a l if ic a ti o n s . Yo u m i g h t n o t b e a la w y e r a n d th e r e f o r e y o u - y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e a p p r e c i a te d t h o s e 10 things. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. No, no thank you very much C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e – th e a g r e e m e n t w a s n o t a c tu a l ly d r a f t e d b y m y s e lf . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t w a s d r a ft e d b y o u r le g a l t e a m . W e a ls o r e a l is e d w i t h ti m e t h a t – r e m e m b e r t h a t w a s i n 2 0 1 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e n w e r e a l is e d t h a t t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n c la u s e s t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : team has gone through W e h a v e t o c l e a n o ff w h i c h o u r l e g a l that. We also went through AGs r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d f i n d in g s a n d th e n i t w a s c o r r e c t b u t f a c t o f t h e m a t t e r is t h a t t h a t o n e C h a ir p e r s o n … Page 207 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W a s s i g n e d w i t h th e b e n e fic i a r i e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : o f t h e d a i r y p r o j e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t w a s th e th i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d y o u c a n n o t t a k e a p r o j e c t to n a t io n a l … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I f i t d o e s n o t h a v e b e n e fi c i a r ie s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t is w h y t h e y w e r e f o r c e d t o g iv e u s th a t - th e l is t – t h e f ir s t l is t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O f t h e b e n e f ic i a r i e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d t h e s e c o n d l is t w h i c h w a s n o w g o i n g w i t h th e b e n e f ic ia r y a g r e e m e n t … 20 CHAIRPERSON: hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H a d t o g o w i th t h e I D s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Because now we are sure that this project has been approved … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 208 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : And that I did because I was d e l e g a t e d t o d o th a t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d I c a n r e a d t o y o u t h e l e t te r th a t w a s d e l e g a t i n g t h a t r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . T h e is s u e w a s n o t s o m u c h t h e d e l e g a t io n i n t e r m s o f w h a t I w a s l o o k in g a t . It w a s s i m p ly t h e c o n t e n t a n d … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d c e r ta i n a s p e c t – a s p e c ts o f it . S o – b u t – b u t t h e 10 a g r e e m e n t th a t I – I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h a t w a s t h e o n e w h ic h w a s s a y in g t h e a g r e e m e n t i s b e tw e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d t h e n i n s te a d o f t e lli n g – o f g iv in g t h e n a m e o f t h e b e n e fi c i a r y. I t w o u l d g iv e t h e n a m e o f th e p r o j e c t … D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n b e l o w t h a t i t w o u ld s a y s o m e t h i n g lik e i n a s s o c i a t i o n w i th th e n t h e b e n e fi c i a r y. That is the one I am talking a b o u t. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u a r e s p o t o n C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : W e h a v e c o r r e c t e d t h a t i n CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e n e w a g r e e m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: B u t th a t w a s y o u r l e g a l d e p a r t m e n t t h a t h a d d r a f t e d that one? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . It was drafted a long time - I Page 209 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 think it was drafted … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I n 2 0 1 0 . W e h a v e b e e n u s i n g i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : U n t il 2 0 1 3 a f t e r t h is o n e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : when we said no, no, no. There are c e r t a i n th in g s t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 10 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o m o r e r e l e v a n t i n t h i s c a s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . T h a n k y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Just for th e record C h a ir m a n p a r t ic u l a r a g r e e m e n t is o n p a g e 1 - 3 - 3 - 3 o f … CHAIRPERSON: 1333? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: correct … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n o f R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e D . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Just for record purposes. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n … C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r w i s e I a m d o n e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n o t h e r w is e th o s e a r e t h e … Page 210 of 217 that 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 CHAIRPERSON: Questions. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Is s u e s w e r e a l ly w a n te d to r a i s e w i t h D r M a s i te n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: U n le s s t h e r e a r e o t h e r m a t t e r s t h a t h e t h i n k s a r e i m p o r t a n t th a t w e h a v e n o t to u c h e d o n t h a t h e d o e s w a n t y o u … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To – t o k n o w a b o u t w e – w e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u a r e d o n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Have done our bit. CHAIRPERSON: Is – is th e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e th a t y o u fe e l t h e C o m m i s s i o n s h o u l d k n o w a b o u t t h is w h o l e p r o je c t t h a t y o u h a v e n o t m e n ti o n e d ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o C h a ir p e r s o n . Thank you very m u c h f o r t h e o p p o r tu n it y. C h a ir p e r s o n I j u s t w a n t t o i n d ic a te t h a t th e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n a – a m e e ti n g w h e r e I w a s c a ll e d a n d c o r r u p t i o n i n t o t h is p r o j e c t w a s d is c u s s e d w i t h m e . N o t a t a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I – I h a v e n o id e a w h a t s o e v e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A b o u t t h e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Is s u e s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I a m a l s o s h o c k e d a b o u t s o m e o f th e t h i n g s C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 211 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h a t i s w h y I a m a ls o i n – i n u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e – t h e D is tr ic t D i r e c to r s a n d th e p r o j e c t c o o r d in a t o r s e m o ti o n s a n d fe e l i n g s a r o u n d th e s e t h i n g s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : A n d I k n o w t h e y w e r e d o in g i t o u t o f t h e ir o w n h e a r t . T h e y w e r e d o i n g th e i r j o b . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e y k n e w a b o u t … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : T h e s e o t h e r c h a ll e n g e s t h a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : That we are confronted with C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : B u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir p e r s o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : F o r th e o p p o r t u n i ty. 20 CHAIRPERSON: T h e – j u s t t h e la s t p a r t i f y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y. m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o s a y o ff t h e to p o f y o u r h e a d . Yo u More or less how m u c h is – a r e t h e ta x p a y e r s p a y i n g fo r t h is p r o j e c t a n n u a lly m a y b e in t h e la s t t h r e e y e a r s ? M o r e o r l e s s n o t n e c e s s a r il y t h e e x a c t f ig u r e . I n w h a t - w h a t r e g i o n i n t e r m s o f a m o u n ts a r e w e ta lk in g a b o u t a s i t c o n ti n u e s ? Page 212 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i s t h a t d i ffic u l t t o s a y w i t h o u t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ? D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : It is a l it t le b i t d i ffi c u l t C h a ir p e r s o n because even the court order … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Is s u g g e s ti n g th a t look th e r e d e p a r t m e n t m u s t b u d g e t fo r t h e p r o j e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I t h in k i t w a s – i t is d o n e in g o o d fa i th 10 to say … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u c a n n o t l e t i t f a l l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : Yo u h a v e t o in v e s t . S o w e a r e s ti ll budgeting … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : F o r i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I n t e r m s o f t h e c o u r t o r d e r … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : B u t I t h i n k I c a n g o i n t o – w e w i ll b e a b l e t o a b s t r a c t fr o m o u r l a s t r e p o r t … C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : I m ig h t b e a b l e to … C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d s e n d i t t o t h e le g a l t e a m j u s t t o s a y m a y b e Page 213 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 fr o m t h e ti m e i t s t a r t e d t h i s i s w h a t h a s b e e n p a i d – h a s b e e n s p e n t a n n u a ll y u p t o – u p t o n o w t h e p r e v i o u s f i n a n c i a l y e a r b y th e P r o v i n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t a n d m a y b e n a t i o n a l . I d o n o t k n o w. J u s t t o g i v e u s a f u ll p ic t u r e o f h o w m u c h m o n e y h a s g o n e in t o i t . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o p r o b l e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f y o u c o u l d p r e p a r e s o m e t h i n g l ik e th a t a n d b e i n t o u c h w i t h th e l e g a l t e a m t h a t w o u ld b e v e r y h e l p fu l . D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : N o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o t h a n k y o u v e r y – th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h 10 f o r c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n . W e a p p r e c ia t e i t . Yo u are excused. D R TA N K I S I J A N K I M A S I T E N G : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a n k y o u – t h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . W e h a v e y o u r b u n d l e s f o r to m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w e w i ll b e h a n d i n g t h o s e u p . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . To m o r r o w h o w m a n y w i t n e s s e s h a v e y o u g o t ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e r e a r e t w o w i tn e s s e s C h a ir m a n … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e y a s y o u c a n s e e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e i r b u n d le s a r e f a ir ly s li m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It is Page 214 of 217 Mr Doctor Radebe and 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 M r W i ll ie B a s s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e y s h o u l d n o t t a k e t o o l o n g C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. N o t h a t is fi n e . Is Mr T h a b e t h e c o m i n g ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: We have … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is w e e k . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t th is w e e k . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 No Chairman. W e h a v e tr i e d to e n g a g e Mr Thabethe. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e c o n ti n u e t o t r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e w ill c o m e b a c k to y o u b y F r i d a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: When we break to tel you what progress w e a r e m a k in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e a r e n o t m a k i n g m u c h p r o g r e s s a t t h is 20 p o i n t C h a ir m a n b u t w e w i ll s e e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o t h a t is – t h a t i s f i n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I f I m i g h t s a y t h e i n t e n t io n is t o h a v e M r T h a b e t h e c o m e – h e c e r t a i n l y h a s g o t 3 . 3 n o t ic e s . T h e C F O D l a m i n i g o t 3 .3 n o t ic e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 215 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: M E C R o c k m a n F in a n c e , M E C Th a b e t h e A g r ic u l t u r e , M E C L a m l e l i A g r i c u l tu r e . T h e y a l l h a v e 3 . 3 n o t ic e s … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e n M r Z w a n e a n d Mr M a g p e l e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t i t is s c h e d u l in g t h o s e a p p e a r a n c e s C h a ir m a n th a t m i g h t b e a l i tt l e b i t o f a c h a ll e n g e . W e w il l s e e h o w i t goes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, n o . A r r a n g e m e n ts n e e d to b e m a d e f o r – 10 f o r th e l e g a l te a m t o s a y t o th e m w e w o u l d l ik e to t a l k t o y o u a b o u t w h a t c e r ta i n w i t n e s s e s s a y a b o u t y o u a n d / o r t o s a y w e w o u l d l ik e y o u t o p r o v id e y o u r v e r s i o n b y w a y o f a ff id a v i t s b u t p r e f e r a b ly i f t h e y a g r e e a n in t e r v ie w w h e r e th e y c a n p u t t h e ir v e r s i o n a n d s t a te m e n ts c a n b e p r e p a r e d o r i f a n a r r a n g e m e n t is m a d e w i t h t h e ir l a w y e r s t o s a y w e w il l p r o v i d e t h e ir s t a t e m e n t s . W e w i ll p r e p a r e th e m a n d a n a g r e e m e n t w o u ld h a v e t o b e m a d e i n te r ms o f ti m e f r a m e s . T h a t w o u l d s t il l b e fi n e b u t in t h e e n d i t w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t t h a t th e y c o m e a n d g i v e t h e ir s i d e o f t h e s to r y a s w e l l . Ja, ja. 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d b e q u e s ti o n e d , ja . O k a y. W e – t o m o r r o w we can start – we should – we can start at 10 I guess. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a ir m a n w e h a v e a n a d d i t io n a l h e a r i n g t h a t y o u s l o t te d i n fo r m y c o ll e a g u e s a t h a l f p a s t f o u r. S o w e … CHAIRPERSON: Oh in the afternoon. Page 216 of 217 24 JULY 2019 – DAY 139 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: In the afternoon. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o w e m u s t b e d o n e b y f o u r, 0 4 : 1 5 . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t h o w d o e s i t l o o k li k e i n t e r m s o f t h e p e o p l e you have? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 1 0 o ’ c l o c k m y c o ll e a g u e s a i d . T h e y w ill b e l e a d i n g th e s e w i t n e s s C h a ir m a n . T h e y s a i d 1 0 o ’ c l o c k a s a s t a r ti n g ti m e is p e r f e c t . T h e y d o n o t t h i n k t h e y n e e d m o r e t h a n tw o h o u r s f o r each witness. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . O k a y, a l r i g h t . W e w i ll th e n a d j o u r n a n d t o m o r r o w w e w il l s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 5 J U LY 2 0 1 9 Page 217 of 217