C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 24 JANUARY 2020 D AY 2 0 5 20 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 24 JANUARY 2020 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d r e a d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w h e n w e c o n c l u d e d y e s t e r d a y I in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e le g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s o f M r Ts o ts i w o u ld l ik e t o a s k s o m e q u e s t io n s i n r e - e x a m in a ti o n a n d s o i f m a y h a n d o v e r t o m y le a r n e d 10 fr i e n d ? CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y n o w I s e e m t o r e m e m b e r t h a t I th o u g h t w e w e r e d o n e w i th M r Ts o t s i . O r d id y o u t e ll m e o n ly a f t e r I h a d r e l e a s e him? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e – w e c o n c l u d e d y e s t e r d a y o n th e b a s is t h a t w e w o u l d b e r e t u r n i n g to d a y fo r t h e r e - e x a m i n a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I k n o w … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o – b u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I t h in k I h a d f o r g o t t e n th a t p a r t n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t a p r o b l e m . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a t a c e r t a in s t a g e y e s t e r d a y I r e le a s e d h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And that must have been … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h n o s o r r y t h a t w a s M r J a c k s o n w h o w a s o u r w i t n e s s w h o m i g h t h a v e c o m e u p y e s te r d a y. CHAIRPERSON: No, no. Page 2 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h r e g a r d to M r Ts o t s i . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n w e fi n is h e d I e x c u s e d h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h g o o d n e s s n o n e o f u s w e r e o n t h e b a l l . CHAIRPERSON: B u t n o w w h a t I a m w o n d e r i n g is w h e t h e r w h e n I d id s o y o u h a d n o t to l d m e t h a t h is le g a l te a m w o u l d l ik e t o r e - e x a m i n e h i m a n d th a t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w e – w e h a d d e a l t w i t h i t b e f o r e t h e t e a . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h e t h e r y o u h a d a lr e a d y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t u n f o r t u n a t e l y C h a ir I h a d n o t p i c k e d t h a t up. CHAIRPERSON: So I must have completely forgotten. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A s d i d I . I w a s n o t a w a r e a t t h a t p o i n t t h a t Mr Ts o t s i h a d b e e n r e l e a s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h a n k f u lly h e i s h e r e n o n e t h e le s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e i s h e r e . G o o d m o r n i n g Mr Ts o ts i . M R T S O T S I : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . No I – I think when I released you I had f o r g o t t e n w h a t e v e r h a d b e e n d is c u s s e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I d o a p o l o g i s e fo r n o t p ic k in g t h a t u p . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . No thank you very much but thank you for c o m i n g b a c k . Ye s Mr N g c e b e ts h a y o u w a n t to r e - e x a m in e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Page 3 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: M r Ts o t s i t h e r e w a s s o m e d i s c u s s io n y e s t e r d a y o n w h e t h e r t h e b o a r d d i d a p p ly i ts m i n d o n t h e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e r e g a r d i n g t h e c o n tr a c t th a t i t c o n s i d e r e d t o r a t i fy a n d u l t i m a te ly d i d r a t i fy. W o u ld y o u b e k in d e n o u g h t o s h a r e w i t h t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g is in a s f a r a s t h a t is c o n c e r n e d ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . W h e n w e w e r e d i s c u s s in g th e m a t te r o f w h e t h e r t o r a ti fy t h e c o n t r a c t o r to c a n c e l i t th e m a t te r o f t h e c o n tr a c t b e i n g a b a d 10 o n e w a s p r e m is e d s o le ly o n th e i d e a a n d th e k n o w le d g e t h a t th e c o n tr a c t h a d b e e n e n t e r e d in t o ir r e g u l a r ly. T h a t w a s t h e s o le p r e m i s e u p o n w h ic h t h e n o ti o n o f a b a d c o n tr a c t i n o u r m i n d s w a s p r e m is e d o n . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : J u s t f o r c l a r i ty b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d . T h a t t o y o u w o u ld h a v e a s a B o a r d m e a n t t h a t t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t is d e e m e d t o b e ir r e g u l a r i t is b a d o r i s i t t h a t t h e r e i s n o v a l u e t h a t E s k o m w a s t o a c q u ir e f r o m t h e c o n tr a c t ? M R T S O T S I : N o th e c o n t r a c t b e i n g a b a d o n e h a d t o u s n o t r e l a t e d t o t h e v a lu e th a t E s k o m c o u l d – c o u ld g e t o u t o f t h e c o n t r a c t . It was s o l e ly r e l a te d to t h e f a c t th a t th e c o n t r a c t w a s e n t e r e d i n t o ir r e g u l a r l y. 20 A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : F a ir e n o u g h . N o w a lo t w a s c a n v a s s e d o n t h e l e g a l o p i n i o n o b t a i n e d f r o m t h e a t t o r n e y s fir m L e d w a b a M a z w a i a n d in v a r i a b ly th e y g a v e y o u t w o o p t i o n s w h i c h w a s a . Yo u m a y c a n c e l t h e c o n t r a c t a n d th e y r a i s e d th e o b v io u s f la g o f t h e r e w o u l d b e c h a ll e n g e s i n t h e l ig h t o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t e r m i n a t i o n c l a u s e a n d th e r e fo r e y o u c o u ld b e o p e n to Page 4 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 li ti g a t i o n . b . T h a t y o u m a y c o n s i d e r t o r a ti fy t h e ir r e g u l a r it y o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d th u s b e a b l e t o o b ta in s o m e v a l u e . N o w e x p l a i n to m e h o w y o u a s a B o a r d u n d e r s t o o d t h a t ? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s c l e a r ly t h a t i f w e w e r e t o r a ti fy t h e c o n tr a c t th e o n ly th i n g t h a t w e w o u ld h a v e t o i n s is t u p o n is t h a t s o m e m e a n s o f m e c h a n i s m b e fo u n d t o e x tr a c t a s m u c h v a lu e o u t o f th e c o n tr a c t. S o w e t h e n d e c i d e d t h a t it w o u l d b e d e tr i m e n t a l – i t w o u ld b e m o r e d e tr i m e n t a l t o t h e c o m p a n y i f w e c a n c e l t h e c o n tr a c t 10 b e c a u s e w e w e r e o p e n i n g o u r s e l v e s u p t o c l a i m s o f n o n - p e r fo r m a n c e a n d a l s o p o s s ib l e l e g a l c o s ts t h a t m a y a r i s e o u t o f th a t a n d o b v i o u s l y w i t h n o p o s s i b i li ty o f e x e r c is in g a n y v a lu e o u t o f t h e c o n tr a c t . S o it w a s th e – s h a ll I s a y t h e b e t t e r o f t h e t w o e v i ls if y o u l ik e fo r u s in o u r – i n o u r t h i n k i n g . A n d s o g iv e n th a t w e t h e n t o o k t h e v ie w t h a t l e t u s t h e n e n s u r e t h a t w e g e t o p t i m a l v a l u e fr o m w h a t is l e f t o f t h e c o n tr a c t . S o th a t w a s t h e p o s it i o n t h a t w e h a d t a k e n a n d t h a t is h o w w e a r r iv e d a t t h e d e c is i o n w e a r r i v e d a t. CHAIRPERSON: B e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d Mr N g c e b e ts h a . Maybe let us ju s t d o t h is M r Ts o t s i i n t h e l ig h t o f t h e fa c t t h a t I r e l e a s e d y o u 20 y e s t e r d a y w h e n y o u w e r e s ti ll g o in g t o c o m e a n d b e r e - e x a m i n e d . D o y o u c o n f ir m t h a t y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a t h t h a t y o u t o o k y e s te r d a y t o b e s t il l b in d i n g o n y o u r c o n s c i e n c e a s y o u c o n ti n u e w i t h y o u r e v i d e n c e ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s I d o . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o t h e e x t e n t t o w h i c h Page 5 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 y o u s a y y o u l o o k e d a t w h a t o p ti m a l v a l u e a n d c h o o s e b e t w e e n t h e t w o e v i ls . L e t u s j u s t g o t h r o u g h t h a t s c e n a r i o . In y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s a B o a r d a n d i n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s a n i n d iv i d u a l w h o l e d th e B o a r d a s C h a ir m a n h a d y o u e x e r c is e d t h e o p ti o n o f c a n c e l la t io n ? What value? W h a t w e r e t h e i m p li c a t io n s o f t h a t a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e r e p o r t o r th e a d v ic e fr o m t h e la w y e r s ? MR TSOTSI: W e l l c l e a r ly t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n w h a t I w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d t o b e w a s t e f u l e x p e n d i tu r e o n t h e p a r t o f t h e B o a r d i f w e h a d ta k e n th e o p t io n to c a n c e l t h e c o n tr a c t . 10 Because we would – we w o u ld h a v e i n c u r r e d l o s s a n d th e c o m p a n y w o u l d h a v e h a d to b e s u b j e c t to a c l a i m a n d t h a t is w h e r e t h e lo s s w o u l d a r is e f r o m . So I t h i n k t h a t in o u r v i e w th e o p ti o n o f r a t if y i n g th e c o n tr a c t p r e v e n t t h a t lo s s f r o m o c c u r r in g w a s a b e t t e r o p ti o n . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : D o y o u d is t in g u is h … CHAIRPERSON: One second. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : S o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t i f t h e p o s i ti o n w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s n o c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e to t h e c o n tr a c t – i n th e c o n t r a c t t o – fo r E s k o m th e n h a v in g p a id o r p a y in g R 4 3 mi lli o n c o u ld w e ll a c t u a ll y a l s o 20 b e a f r u i tl e s s e x p e n d i tu r e a n d w h e n I u s e t h a t t e r m i n o l o g y n o w I a m n o t b e i n g te c h n i c a l I a m j u s t u s in g i t a s a l a y p e r s o n . In o t h e r w o r d s i f s o m e b o d y s a y s a ft e r t h e y e a r o r I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r fo r h o w l o n g t h e c o n tr a c t w a s t h a t w e r e y o u – Es k o m w a s g o in g t o s p e n d R 4 3 m ill i o n a ft e r a y e a r o r t w o o r t h r e e c o m e s a n d s a y s , y o u h a v e p a i d R 4 3 m i ll io n h e r e w h a t d id y o u g e t i n r e t u r n i f y o u a r e n o t a b le to p u t u p s o m e th i n g Page 6 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t h a t s a y s t h i s i s th e v a lu e w e g o t t h e n s o m e b o d y c o u ld s a y, s o t h a t R 4 3 m il li o n is w a s t e d . S o t h a t is – t h a t i s t h e m e a n i n g I a m a t ta c h i n g to fr u i tl e s s e x p e n d i tu r e w h ic h m i g h t n o t b e e x a c t ly t h e s a m e a s th e t e c h n ic a l m e a n i n g f o r a c c o u n t a n t s a n d a u d i to r s m a y b e . B u t th a t i s w h a t I a m s a y in g . I n o th e r w o r d s y o u mi g h t s a y – l e t u s r a t i fy b e c a u s e y o u a r e s c a r e d o f li t ig a ti o n b u t i f y o u r a t i fy a c o n tr a c t t h a t h a s g o t n o v a l u e f o r E s k o m y o u c o u l d s ti ll f a c e t h e s a m e s i t u a t i o n o n t h e b a s i s t h a t y o u c a n n o t r e a ll y j u s ti f y t h e p a y m e n t o f R 4 3 mi ll i o n in t e r m s o f h o w h a s i t h e lp e d Es k o m . 10 MR TSOTSI: C h a ir th e r e – I c o n c u r w i t h w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g a n d i n f a c t I t h in k t h a t is w h a t t h e l a w y e r s w e r e e s s e n ti a l ly s a y in g b y s a y i n g t h a t i t w o u l d b e u s e d f o r – a d v is a b l e fo r u s t o e s t a b li s h c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t . CHAIRPERSON: So the answer is you understand that? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Let us just maybe e s t a b li s h w h a t is t h e – w h a t w a s th e k n o w l e d g e o f t h e B o a r d i n t e r m s o f w h a t th is c o n tr a c t r e p r e s e n t e d ? W h a t w e r e y o u g e t t in g a s Es k o m ? 20 M R T S O T S I : C h a i r t h e – th e c o n tr a c t s p e lt o u t w h a t th e o u t p u ts w o u ld b e a n d I th i n k i f o n e w a n ts t o g e t in t o t h e d e t a il it is t h e r e i n t h e – i n t h e c o n tr a c t i ts e l f . C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e d o c k e t – in t h e c o n tr a c t. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 7 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R T S O T S I : S o i n t e r m s o f y o u k n o w t h e b o tt o m l i n e o u tp u ts t h e y a r e s p e l t o u t i n th e c o n tr a c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f t h e r e a r e t w o w a y s o f d e a l in g w i t h t h i s . O n e is i f y o u t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o h i g h l ig h t t h o s e t h e n t h e c o n tr a c t c a n b e p u t in f r o n t o f y o u . But if you are happy that we can look at the c o n tr a c t l a t e r t h a t is fi n e . M r N g c e b e ts h a c a n i n d ic a te w h a t h e p r e fe r s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r h a p s l e t m e – l e t m e s e e if w e c a n m a k e q u i c k e r p r o g r e s s o f t h e d i ff e r e n t - p e r h a p s l e t m e – le t m e s e e i f w e c a n m a k e q u i c k e r p r o g r e s s o n a d i ff e r e n t … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Without … A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : A n d i f n e e d s b e w e w ill g e t t h e r e . T h e – y e s t e r d a y y o u m e n t i o n e d th a t t h e e v a lu a t io n o f th e c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e o r d i n a r i ly w o u l d h a v e r e s t e d w i t h t h e E x e c u ti v e te a m a s th e y w e r e n e g o ti a ti n g t h e c o n tr a c ts . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : W a s i n y o u r m i n d th e B o a r d s e iz e d w i t h a n e v a l u a t i o n o f t h e c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e o r n o t a t t h e ti m e t h a t y o u 20 c o n s i d e r e d r a t if ic a ti o n ? MR TSOTSI: W e l l t h e i s s u e t h e r e f o r u s w a s t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t u n d e r n o r m a l c ir c u m s ta n c e s w o u ld n o t h a v e c o m e to t h e B o a r d i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e . B e c a u s e t h e d e l e g a t io n o f a u th o r it y f o r th a t l e v e l o f e x p e n d i t u r e is w i t h i n t h e c o m p e t e n c e o f m a n a g e m e n t. T h e o n ly r e a s o n s th e c o n tr a c t c a m e to u s w a s b e c a u s e o f th e i r r e g u l a r i ty w h ic h w a s i n f a c t Page 8 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 o c c a s i o n e d b y a m e m b e r o f th e B o a r d a n d b e c a u s e t h e B o a r d w a s t h e o n ly a u th o r it y i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n t h a t c o u ld h a v e a d d r e s s e d t h a t is s u e because it was beyond the level of management. E x e c u t iv e i s a m e m b e r o f t h e B o a r d . Because the Chief S o t h e o v e r r i d i n g c o n s i d e r a ti o n f o r u s w a s t h is p r o b l e m o f t h e ir r e g u l a r i ty. Th e B o a r d w o u l d o n ly h a v e e n g a g e d i ts e l f o n th e is s u e o f v a lu e o n l y i n s o fa r a s t h e f a c t t h a t it is a n o r m a l c o u r s e t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a v a lu e i n a n y c o n t r a c t t h a t t h e c o m p a n y e n t e r s i n to . S o n a t u r a ll y b e c a u s e w e w e r e n o w d e a l in g w i t h t h is i s s u e t h e is s u e o f v a lu e h a d t o c o m e u p i n t h e d i s c u s s io n . B u t t h e 10 s u b s t a n t iv e p r e o c c u p a t io n of the Board had to do w i th this tr a n s g r e s s i o n t h a t o c c u r r e d in t h e s i g n a t u r e o f t h e c o n tr a c t . T h a t w a s t h e p r i m a r y p r e o c c u p a ti o n . A s a c o n s e q u e n c e th e r e fo r e C h a ir th e B o a r d t h e n in s i s t e d th a t m a n a g e m e n t m u s t d o i ts - i ts u t m o s t to g e t v a l u e o u r o f th is c o n tr a c t o n c e – fr o m th e n o n b e c a u s e i t i s v e r y c l e a r t h a t w i t h o u t e x tr a c ti n g v a l u e o u t o f t h e c o n tr a c t i t w il l b e a n e x e r c is e w h ic h w o u l d r e s u l t i n fr u i tl e s s e x p e n d i t u r e b y t h e c o m p a n y i f t h e c o n tr a c t c o n t i n u e s a n d t h e r e is n o a t te n d a n t a t te m p t t o e x a c t v a l u e fr o m t h e c o n tr a c t. So we needed to – to add that to you know the – w e ll i t w a s a d d e d t o t h e r e s o l u ti o n t h a t w a s p a s s e d . T h e R o u n d R o b in 20 Resolution. CHAIRPERSON: W h il e M r N g c e b e t s h a i s l o o k i n g a t h i s n o t e s I a m tr y i n g t o r e c a ll y e s te r d a y ’s e v i d e n c e . D id w e e n d u p w i t h t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u s a id a t t h e t i m e o f r a ti fy in g b y t h e t i m e t h e B o a r d r a ti f ie d t h e c o n tr a c t t h e q u e s ti o n o f i ts c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e h a d n o t b e e n d e t e r m in e d . Is t h e r e w h e r e – w h a t y o u s a i d ? Page 9 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. P r i n c ip a l ly w h a t I a m tr y i n g t o g e t M r Ts o ts i a n d t h e w i tn e s s – o r r a t h e r t h e w i tn e s s t o c la r i fy w h ic h I t h i n k h e h a s d o n e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: 10 Fi r s tl y is t h a t t h e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e – le t m e ju s t p u t i t a [i n d is t in c t] p o s i t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja put it with ja. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : F i r s tl y t h a t t h e – t h is is m y p r o p o s i ti o n a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e . Correct me where I am wrong. Yo u r u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h e g e n e s is t h a t a ll o w s t h e c o n tr a c t t o b e e n te r e d in t o in v o k e s th e m a n a g e m e n t t o h a v e c o n s i d e r e d c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e . A r e w e correct? M R T S O T S I : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: T h a t h a v i n g d o n e s o th e y e n t e r e d i n t o a c o n tr a c t w h ic h l a te r t h r o u g h t h e S N G R e p o r t c o r r o b o r a t e d b y th e 20 L e d w a b a M a z w a i R e p o r t i n d ic a t e d t h a t it w a s i r r e g u l a r ly e n t e r e d in t o . M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: T h a t fu r t h e r i t c a m e t o t h e B o a r d t o c o n s i d e r th e i s s u e o f ir r e g u l a r i t y p r in c i p a l l y ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: C o n s e q u e n t ly th e B o a r d w o u l d h a v e t o Page 10 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 c o n s i d e r w h a t p o s i ti o n t o ta k e o n c a n c e ll a t io n v e r s u s r a ti f ic a t i o n . M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : N o w a t th a t p o i n t w h a t w e n o w k n o w i s th a t the Ledwaba Mazwai Report says: “ A b s e n t o f a t e r m i n a t io n c l a u s e if y o u c a n c e l y o u a r e fa c i n g a s a c o m p a n y t h e p o s s i b il i ty o f T N A a c c e p t in g t h is a s a r e p u d i a t i o n w h ic h s i m p l y m e a n s t h a t f o r n o n - p e r f o r m a n c e y o u w ill p a y t h e m f o r t h e f u ll b a l a n c e o f t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h o u t a n y g o o d s o r s e r v ic e s b e in g d e li v e r e d . ” M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. 10 ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: T h e a lt e r n a ti v e i s th a t i f y o u d o r a ti f y i t y o u w o u l d a t l e a s t e x t r a c t t h e v a l u e o f g o o d s o r s e r v ic e s , is th a t c o r r e c t t o u n d e r s ta n d ? MR TSOTSI: Correct yes. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: S o – s o d i d th e B o a r d a p p ly i ts e lf t o a c o m m e r c ia l c o n s i d e r a t i o n p e r h a p s d i ffe r e n t f r o m t h e o r i g in a l o n e t h a t t h e m a n a g e m e n t t e a m w o u ld h a v e l o o k e d a t? Th a t i s th e q u e s t i o n I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d . MR TSOTSI: T h e B o a r d d id a p p ly i ts e l f t o c o n s i d e r c o m m e r c ia l c o n s i d e r a ti o n s y e s b e c a u s e i t w o u l d n o t m a k e s e n s e fo r th e B o a r d to 20 r a ti fy t h e c o n tr a c t i n th e a b s e n c e o f s o m e c o m m e r c ia l c o n s i d e r a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u h a v e a n tic i p a t e d m y n e x t q u e s ti o n M r Ts o ts i . I a m g l a d y o u h a v e a n t ic ip a t e d i t. O k a y M r N g c e b e ts h a c o n ti n u e . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: A n d w h a t w a s th e c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e t h a n t h a t th e B o a r d i n i ts l i m i te d s c o p e l o o k e d a t ? MR TSOTSI: Sorry I did not get the question. Page 11 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: W h a t w a s t h e c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e t h a t t h e Board considered? CHAIRPERSON: Okay I think – I think maybe if I could put it in a n o t h e r w a y. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Sure. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M a y b e it s h o u ld b e p r e c e d e d b y a n y e a r l ie r q u e s t io n . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e r e v a lu e t h a t t h e B o a r d a t t a c h e d o r c o n c e d e d 10 e x i s te d i n th e c o n tr a c t b e fo r e it r a ti f ie d ? MR TSOTSI: T h e B o a r d d id c o n s id e r t h a t t h e r e w a s v a l u e i n th e c o n tr a c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n I t h in k th e n e x t q u e s ti o n , w h a t w a s th a t value? A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : Ye s . O k a y. MR TSOTSI: What we then – what we then looked at in terms of how t h e c o n tr a c t w a s in i ti a l ly – fr o m i n c e p t io n h o w i t w a s p u t t o g e t h e r w a s a r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t M r M a tj il a s e n t t o t h e B o a r d t h o u g h h e w a s n o t a b le t o b e t h e r e p e r s o n a lly t o m a k e t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n . S o w e th e n s a i d w e 20 s h o u l d r e i n fo r c e th e id e a t h a t t h e r e h a s g o t to b e c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e in t h is c o n tr a c t . Th e r e h a s g o t to b e a r e a l is a ti o n o f t h e c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e in th e c o n tr a c t o t h e r w is e i t is n o t w o r t h w h il e f o r t h e B o a r d t o r a t i fy t h e c o n tr a c t. W e w e r e n o t c o m p e te n t o u r s e lv e s to e s t a b l is h w h a t l e v e l o f v a l u e t h e r e is . I m e a n w e d o n o t h a v e t h e c a p a c i ty t o q u a n t if y t h e – t h e q u a n t u m o f v a lu e b u t w e u n d e r s t o o d fr o m w h a t M a t ji l a h a d p u t Page 12 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 f o r w a r d th a t th e r e i s a n e x p e c t a ti o n th a t t h e r e w i ll b e d e l iv e r a b le s o n t h e b a s i s o f t h e c o n tr a c t w h ic h w o u l d th e n r e s u l t i n s o m e v a l u e f o r th e c o m p a n y. S o i t w a s t h e n u p t o m a n a g e m e n t t o t h e n p u t t o g e th e r a c a p a c i ty o r a m e c h a n i s m t o e n s u r e t h a t v a l u e d o e s g e t e x t r a c te d fr o m t h e c o n tr a c t. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: P u t d i ff e r e n tly a n d I g iv e y o u a n o t h e r p r o p o s i ti o n . O n p a p e r th e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n v a l u e a n d y o u c h o s e a s y o u p u t i t th e l e s s e r e v il . M R T S O T S I : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . 10 ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: B y ta k i n g t h e o p ti o n t h a t a ll o w e d y o u t o h a v e a c h a n c e t o r e – c o n v e r t t h a t in t o w r i t in g – I m e a n i n t o r e a li l ty. M R T S O T S I : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t a p o lo g ie s ju s t to n o t e a t t h i s p o i n t. I t i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t in o u r s u b m is s io n f o r th e w e ig h t th a t i s e v e r t o b e a tt a c h e d M r Ts o t s i ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t i n r e - e x a m in a ti o n h e is a s k e d n o t le a d i n g q u e s ti o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e h a v e r a i s e d t h is b e fo r e in r e - e x a m i n a t io n s o I w o u l d j u s t c a u t i o n m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d i n s o fa r a s t h a t is c o n c e r n e d . CHAIRPERSON: Well you – you saw that as you were standing I was – I w a s s m ili n g b e c a u s e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n r o u te t o m a k e t h e p o i n t. CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e I t h i n k a l l t h r e e o f u s i n c l u d in g M r Page 13 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 N g c e b e ts h a k n e w – k n e w t h a t t h a t w a s l e a d i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m n o t b e i n g u n f a ir t o y o u M r N g c e b e t s h a . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Shall we – shall we rephrase it is fine? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : I t is a l r i g h t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . Do you yourself d is t in g u i s h b e t w e e n c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e a s s e s s m e n t th a t l e d to t h e – a t 10 t h e g e n e s is o f th e c o n t r a c t n e g o ti a ti o n a n d t h e c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e a s s e s s m e n t w h e n t h e B o a r d h a d to c o n s id e r r a t i fi c a t io n ? D o y o u m a k e a n y d is ti n c t io n b e t w e e n th e t w o o r n o t ? MR TSOTSI: C o m m e r c ia l a s s e s s m e n t o f t h e c o n tr a c t w o u l d h a v e h a d t o h a v e b e e n d o n e a t t h e i n c e p t io n o f p u t t i n g t h e c o n tr a c t to g e th e r. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Ye s le t u s b e d i r e c t . Do you make a d is t in c ti o n b e t w e e n t h e t w o ? A r e t h e y t h e – e x a c tly t h e s a m e t h i n g o r t h e y a r e a li t tl e b i t d i ff e r e n t ? MR TSOTSI: They are the same. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Ja. 20 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : I f t h e y a r e e x a c tl y t h e s a m e t h e n y o u h a v e t o c l a r i f y t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h y y e s t e r d a y i n y o u r e v id e n c e y o u s a id t h e B o a r d d i d n o t h a v e to c o n s id e r a c o m m e r c i a l c o n s i d e r a ti o n a n d today you say it did. B e c a u s e o n t h e f a c e o f it i t l o o k s li k e a c o n tr a d ic ti o n . W h a t d o y o u m e a n ? Page 14 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R T S O T S I : Yo u s e e y e s t e r d a y I w a s t r y i n g t o e x p la in C h a ir th e f o c u s o f w h a t th e B o a r d w a s c o n s id e r in g a n d t h e r e a s o n w h y i n a n y c a s e t h a t all of this was happening was because of the fact that there had been a n i r r e g u l a r i ty t h a t w a s p ic k e d u p w h i c h i r r e g u l a r i ty t h e n t r i g g e r e d t h e e n t ir e p r o c e s s t h a t w e w e n t t h r o u g h . S o t h e f o c u s o f th e B o a r d w a s o n t h a t m a t te r. T h e m a t te r o f c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t w a s e s s e n ti a l ly r a is e d a s a r e s u l t o f w h a t a r e th e c o n s i d e r a t i o n s t h a t o n e m u s t t a k e in t o a c c o u n t w h e n a c o n tr a c t o f th is n a t u r e is t o b e r a ti fi e d . S o t h a t c o n s id e r a ti o n t h e n s p e a k s to w h a t w a s i n f a c t in t e n d e d in th e 10 c o n tr a c t? I r r e s p e c t iv e o f i t h a v i n g b e e n e n t e r e d ir r e g u la r – i n to ir r e g u l a r ly. W h a t w a s t h e i n te n t i n te r ms o f b e n e fi t f o r th e c o m p a n y ? Wa s t h e r e a n y i n te n t t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e b e n e fi t fo r t h e c o m p a n y ? A n d w h e n I s a y t h is I a m s a y in g t h is is w h a t t h e B o a r d s a i d t h a t in a n y c a s e t h e r e w a s a n in t e n ti o n fo r t h e c o m – f o r t h e c o n tr a c t t o b e n e fi t t h e c o m p a n y. N o t t o t h e e x t e n t to w h i c h t h a t w o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d w e w e r e n o t c o m p e t e n t t o q u a n t i fy b u t w h a t w e d o k n o w is th a t th e r e w a s a n in t e n t th a t t h e c o n tr a c t s h o u ld b e n e f it th e c o m p a n y. S o t h is is w h e r e p e r h a p s I d id n o t p u t my s e l f – I d i d n o t p u t it c l e a r l y o r I d i d n o t m a k e it c l e a r. 20 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I t h i n k i t i s b e t te r t h a t I s h o u l d r a is e m y – p u t t h e s e q u e s ti o n s t o y o u n o w s o M r N g c e b e ts h a h a s t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o a s k y o u f u r t h e r q u e s t io n a r is i n g fr o m th e m if t h e r e i s a n y th i n g th a t h e t h i n k s n e e d s c l a r i f ic a t i o n . Ye s te r d a y y o u h a d – y o u t e s ti fi e d a b o u t t h e R o u n d R o b i n R e s o l u ti o n a n d s a i d t h a t y o u s ig n e d i t a n d a d m i t t e d t h a t y o u d i d n o t r e a d i t m a y b e a s c a r e f u l ly a s y o u s h o u ld h a v e . Page 15 of 187 Yo u 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 d is c o v e r e d a f t e r w a r d s th a t t h e r e w e r e s o m e e r r o r s i n th e s t a te m e n t y o u – y o u o w n e d u p t o t h a t a s I u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v i d e n c e . T h a t w a s fi n e . N o w f o r m e – o h t h e n e x t th i n g is y o u s a i d e a r l ie r o n th a t th e B o a r d h a d t o c o n s id e r t h e i s s u e o f c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e b e f o r e i t c o u ld r a ti fy b e c a u s e o th e r w i s e a n d I m a y b e p u t ti n g w o r d s in y o u r m o u th , o t h e r w is e i t w o u l d n o t m a k e s e n s e t o r a t i fy a c o n tr a c t t h a t m i g h t n o t h a v e a n y v a l u e . N o w I m a y b e p u t t in g w o r d s i n t o y o u r m o u th b u t t h a t i s b e c a u s e i t is w h a t i s in m y m in d b u t w h e n y o u a n s w e r y o u c a n c la r i fy f o r t h e r e c o r d w h e r e I a m s a y i n g y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g y o u d id n o t s a y. B u t s o fo r m e it m a k e s 10 a l o t o f s e n s e w h e n y o u s a y, t h e r e is n o w a y w e c o u ld r a ti f y a s a B o a r d a c o n t r a c t w i th o u t s a tis fy i n g o u r s e lv e s o r w i t h o u t a s k i n g t h e q u e s t io n , is t h e r e v a lu e f o r t h e c o m p a n y i n t h i s c o n t r a c t ? N o w a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t – a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u d i d c o n s i d e r th a t i s s u e a s a B o a r d . T h e n e x t q u e s ti o n is , w h a t d i d y o u d o a b o u t i t ? And I think at some s t a g e I u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o b e s a y i n g , w e ll w e s a i d to m a n a g e m e n t t h e y m u s t m a k e s u r e t h e c o m p a n y g e t s v a l u e o u t o f th is c o n tr a c t a n d s o o n . M y d i ff ic u l t y i s I w o u l d n o t e x p e c t a B o a r d s u c h a s y o u r – a B o a r d o f E s k o m I w o u l d n o t e x p e c t a n y B o a r d t o r a ti fy a c o n tr a c t w i th o u t s a ti s f y i n g t h e m s e lv e s t h a t t h e r e is v a l u e i n t h e c o n t r a c t – t h e c o n tr a c t 20 h a s v a l u e fo r t h e c o m p a n y. N o w o f c o u r s e i f y o u a r e to l d b y s o m e b o d y t h a t y o u h a v e n o r e a s o n to t h i n k t h e y a r e m is le a d i n g y o u – i f y o u a r e t o l d , n o th is i s t h e v a l u e o r b la h , b l a h , b l a h , b la h y o u mi g h t n o t n e e d t o g o b e h i n d t h a t t o c h e c k w h e th e r th a t i s tr u e . Yo u m i g h t n o t n e e d t o g o b e h i n d t h a t t o c h e c k w h e t h e r t h a t is tr u e . T h a t - th a t d e p e n d s o n h o w - h o w m u c h y o u - tr u s t y o u h a v e in Page 16 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t h e p e r s o n w h o t e l ls y o u t h a t t h e r e i s v a l u e a n d m a y b e t h is is th e v a l u e , b u t w h e r e t h e r e is - p a r t ic u l a r ly w h e r e t h e r e is a lo t o f m o n e y in v o lv e d I w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t a s a B o a r d y o u w o u l d s a y - t h e B o a r d w o u ld s a y y o u m a n a g e m e n t w a n t s u s t o r a t if y t h i s . W e - i f w e r a ti f y it w e ta k e f u ll r e s p o n s i b ili t y f o r i t a n d b e w e w ill n o t r a t if y i t u n le s s y o u s a t is fy u s t h a t i t h a s c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e . Te ll u s w h e r e t h e c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e is a n d if th e y s a y n o - i f t h e y t e l l y o u s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u th i n k i s n o n s e n s e . Yo u m u s t s a y w e - t h e n w e a r e n o t r a t i fy i n g d e p e n d i n g o r y o u m u s t s a y w e l l w e r a ti fy in g e v e n 10 t h o u g h t h e r e is n o v a l u e , b e c a u s e o f A , B , C , D . W h a t e v e r t h e A , B , C , D is . S o t h a t i s - t h a t is w h e r e m y - m y c o n c e r n is . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So - so you - you can address this concern in whatever way … M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u w o u l d l ik e t o . MR TSOTSI: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Perhaps it did not come across as c le a r ly y e s t e r d a y … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR TSOTSI: B u t a s I s a id n o t l o n g a g o t h a t t h e c o m m e r c i a l c o n s i d e r a ti o n a t t h e t i m e w h e n t h e c o n tr a c t w a s b e i n g p u t t o g e t h e r is w h a t w e u n d e r s t o o d to b e t h e a t te m p t t o d e m o n s tr a t e v a l u e i n t h e c o n tr a c t - c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e o r th e e x i s t e n c e o r p o t e n t ia l f o r c o m m e r c i a l value. Page 17 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 S o th a t i n i ts e l f w e d i d n o t r e l a t e t h a t a b i li ty to d e m o n s t r a t e t h a t v ia M r M a tj il a w i th t h e tr a n s g r e s s i o n th a t r e s u l t e d i n th e - i n th e r e g u la r i ty. I n o t h e r w o r d s w h a t I a m s a y in g C h a ir i s t h a t w e d i d n o t p a s s ju d g m e n t o n M r M a t jil a ’s c a p a c i ty t o d e m o n s t r a t e v a lu e in t h e c o n tr a c t b a s e d o n t h e tr a n s g r e s s io n t h a t h e i n c u r r e d in s ig n in g o f t h e c o n tr a c t. S o t h a t - t h a t t h e n s a y s to m e t h a t e v e n if t h i s c o n tr a c t d i d n o t c o m e t o t h e B o a r d a n d i t p r o c e e d e d in a n o r m a l fa s h i o n w e a s a B o a r d w o u l d h a v e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f m a n a g e m e n t i s 10 t o m a k e c e r ta i n th a t t h e r e i s c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e f o r t h e c o m p a n y w h e n t h e y e n te r i n t o a c o n tr a c t . N o w it is p r o b a b ly e a s y p o s t f a c t o t o e s ta b lis h w h e t h e r in d e e d to e s ta b lis h w h e th e r in d e e d th e u n d e r s t a n d in g w e h a d a t t h e ti m e w a s c o r r e c t o r n o t , b u t I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t r e m o v e s t h e l a ti t u d e t h a t one must give … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : To m a n a g e m e n t w h e n t h e y s a y w e a r e c o n fi d e n t t h a t t h e w a y w e h a v e e n t e r e d in t o th is c o n tr a c t w ill i n d e e d r e s u l t i n v a l u e f o r t h e c o m p a n y. T h a t C h a ir m a n i s t h e r e a s o n w h y I f o r o n e d i d n o t r e a ll y 20 s e e t h e - t h e r e a s o n to g o b a c k a n d - a n d r e - e s ta b lis h - i f y o u l ik e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : W h e t h e r i n f a c t th e r e is c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e i n t h e c o n tr a c t o r n o t , b e c a u s e i t i s n o t th e f ir s t ti m e t h a t Es k o m i s d o in g s o m e t h i n g lik e t h is a n d li k e I s a y i f w e h a v e f o u n d a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y t h a t i n f a c t t h e r e w a s a n e r r o r i n j u d g m e n t b y m a n a g e m e n t . T h e n th a t w o u l d Page 18 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 b e s o m e t h i n g th a t w o u l d th e n h a v e t o b e d e a l t w i t h a t t h a t t i m e , b u t w e h a v e to h a v e c o n f id e n c e in th e i r a b il i ty t o e x e c u te th e m a n d a te t h a t t h e y h a v e in th e i n t e r e s t o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d t h i s o c c a s i o n is n o d i ff e r e n t a n d s h o u ld n o t b e c o n f u s e d b y t h e f a c t th a t t h e r e is a n y r e g u la r i ty t h a t o c c u r r e d w h ic h t h e B o a r d w a s s e i z e d w i t h a t th e ti m e . I d o n o t k n o w i f I a m m a k i n g my s e l f c l e a r C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f I s a y y o u d o th e n I - I s h o u l d n o t h a v e a n o t h e r q u e s t io n . L e t - l e t m e a s k t h is q u e s ti o n . A m I c o r r e c t to u n d e r s t a n d y o u r - y o u t o s a y a s y o u r a ti f y i t - t h e c o n tr a c t - y o u h a d n o t s a ti s f i e d 10 y o u r s e l f - y o u r s e lv e s a s t h e B o a r d a s y e t t h a t th e r e w a s c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e in t h e c o n t r a c t fo r E s k o m , b u t w h a t a t le a s t y o u r s e l f m a y b e - h e r e I th in k y o u d i d n o t w a n t to s p e a k f o r o th e r p e o p l e n e c e s s a r i ly. Yo u - y o u r - y o u r a t ti t u d e w a s M a tj il a s a y s th e r e is v a l u e i n t h e c o n tr a c t . I d o n o t w a n t t o s e c o n d g u e s s h i m . A m I - is - a m I u n d e r - a m I u n d e r s t a n d i n g y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t ly ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O f c o u r s e y o u - y o u w o u l d a c c e p t w o u ld y o u n o t th a t w h i l e t h a t a p p r o a c h m ig h t g iv e c o n f id e n c e t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t t h a t w e a r e a ll o w e d t o d e t e r m i n e w h a t h a s c o m m e r c i a l 20 v a l u e a n d w h a t h a s n o c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e f o r t h e c o m p a n y t h e B o a r d is a c c e p ti n g w h a t w e s a y t h e y a r e n o t s c r u ti n is i n g . T h e y - t h e y a r e n o t s e c o n d g u e s s in g u s . s h o w n t h a t th e c o n tr a c t h a d n o c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e . said that you had an o p p o r t u n i ty to check If later on it is Th e n i t c o u l d b e whether there was c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e b e f o r e y o u r a ti f ie d a n d b e c a u s e y o u d i d n o t d o t h a t Page 19 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 maybe Eskom then lost a lot of money because maybe if you had c h e c k e d y o u c o u l d h a v e s t o p p e d t h e - th e c o n tr a c t. Let us leave out for now the arguments about whether there w a s th e r o u t e o f g o i n g to c o u r t a n d d e c l a r i n g i t i n v a l id w a s t h e r e o r n o t , b u t y o u - y o u - w o u l d y o u a c c e p t t h a t t h e r e c o u l d b e c r it ic is m fr o m th a t a n g le ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I d o a c c e p t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M r N g c e b e t s h a . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n . J u s t t o r o u n d o ff 10 t h is . I n t h e L e d w a b a M a z w a i r e p o r t w a s t h e o p ti o n a v a i le d t h a t y o u c o u l d a c tu a l ly g o t o c o u r t t o - t o g e t t h is c o n tr a c t c a n c e l le d ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d e c l a r e d in v a li d . MR TSOTSI: No. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : Ye s . D e c l a r e d … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n c e l le d o r d e c l a r e d in v a l i d . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR TSOTSI: No. There was no such. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: 20 Ja. To th e b e s t o f m y r e c o ll e c t io n t h r e e o p t io n s w e r e r a is e d . F ir s t r a ti fi c a t io n . S e c o n d ly, c a n c e ll a ti o n a t y o u r in s is t e n c e t h e c o m p a n y. T h ir d l y, a p p r o a c h in g t h e m o n a g o o d w il l b a s is t o s e e i f y o u c o u ld r e n e g o ti a te t h e t e r m s o f th e c o n tr a c t. Is th a t correct? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . Th a t i s c o r r e c t. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : R ig h t . S o my l a s t q u e s ti o n h e r e h o p e fu lly Page 20 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a n d t h e n I c a n m o v e o n t o a n o t h e r is s u e is d i d t h e B o a r d u n d e r s t a n d t h a t o r l e t m e p u t i t d i ff e r e n t ly w a s th e r e a n y p r o c e s s t h a t t h e B o a r d s e t in m o ti o n t o - t o b e c o n s i d e r e d t o s e e i f a n y p a r t y - in th is i n s t a n c e M r M a tji l a o r a n y o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e Te a m M e m b e r s - t h a t i n t h e e v e n t t h a t th e r e w a s n o v a l u e t h a t c o u l d b e r e a li s e d w o u l d f a c e s o m e consequences? M R T S O T S I : C h a ir, I - a t t h e ti m e w h e n I w a s i n v o lv e d w i th t h is m a t t e r we had not reached that consideration. I t is p o s s i b le t h a t th e y c o u ld h a v e a r is e n w it h t h e - w i t h t h e B o a r d a f t e r I l e f t. A f t e r t h e y - th e y th e n 10 h a d th e n s o m e e x p e r i e n c e o f - o f th e c o n t r a c t . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : F a ir. N o w I w a n t t o t r e a t t h e s e c o n d p o in t f o r m e w h i c h i s th e r a t if ic a ti o n - r a t h e r t h e r o u n d r o b in r e s o l u ti o n . I n a d is c u s s io n y e s t e r d a y i t b e c a m e c le a r t h a t t h e r e w e r e s o m e o m i s s i o n s i f n o t i n a c c u r a c i e s i n t h e r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u ti o n . C a n w e - a r e y o u a b l e t o id e n ti fy w h a t i n y o u r m i n d w e r e th o s e i n a c c u r a c i e s o r i n c o m p l e te o m is s io n s ? C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d if y o u w a n t t o l o o k a t … MR TSOTSI: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e s o lu t io n th a t … 20 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I t h i n k th a t w o u l d h e l p m e … ( i n te r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e s o m e b o d y c a n h e l p - c a n h e l p h i m w i th w h a t p a g e t h a t is . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Page 145 of EXHIBIT MM3. MR TSOTSI: 145? A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : J a . I t a c t u a ll y s t a r ts o n 1 4 3 . M M 3 . Page 21 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R T S O T S I : H u h - u h . M M 3 . N o . Th is b u n d l e . 1 4 3 . Ye s . O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Have you got it? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I h a v e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. MR TSOTSI: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: I - I t h i n k t h e q u e s ti o n w a s w h e t h e r y o u a r e a b l e t o s p e c i f y w h a t e r r o r s o r i n a c c u r a c ie s a n d I w o u ld a d d o m is s i o n s y o u l a te r id e n t i fi e d i n t h e r e s o l u t i o n . M R T S O T S I : T h e f ir s t o n e C h a ir w o u l d b e t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t s a y s t h a t : 10 “ T h e p a r t ie s t h a t w e r e in v o lv e d i n t h i s m a t t e r a r e n o lo n g e r w it h in t h e s p h e r e o f Es k o m ’s … ” CHAIRPERSON: On what page? M R T S O T S I : S o r r y. O n e - 1 4 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 4 4 . Ye s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Paragraph. M R T S O T S I : T h e l a s t - t h e s e c o n d l a s t b u ll e t … A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : Fr o m t h e b o t t o m o f th e p a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MR TSOTSI: Begins with that: “ T h e p a r t ie s t h a t w e r e in v o lv e d i n t h i s m a t t e r a r e n o lo n g e r w it h in t h e s p h e r e o f Es k o m ’s o p e r a t io n s . ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR TSOTSI: I u n d e r s t o o d th a t t o m e a n t h a t b o th Mr M a t ji la a n d Mr Choeu are no longer … Page 22 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: Within Eskom? M R T S O T S I : W it h in E s k o m a n d t h a t w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t tr u e . MR TSOTSI: Not correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e g a r d t o b o th o f t h e m ? M R T S O T S I : In r e g a r d t o o n e o f t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR TSOTSI: I t is tr u e a b o u t M r M a tj il a , b u t i t w a s n o t tr u e a b o u t M r C h o e u , b e c a u s e h e w a s s ti ll w o r k i n g … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. M R T S O T S I : In - in t h e c o m p a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: W a s M r M a tj i la a t th e t i m e o f t h is r o u n d r o b i n r e s o l u t i o n s t il l a B o a r d M e m b e r ? MR TSOTSI: No. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: So he was no lo n g e r I n te r i m Chief E x e c u t iv e n o r a B o a r d M e m b e r ? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: 20 T h a n k y o u a n d M r C h o e u w a s s t il l a n employee? M R T S O T S I : T h a t is r ig h t . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : R ig h t . N o w t h e k e y is s u e r e g a r d i n g t h a t i s w h a t s t e p s i f a n y d i d y o u t a k e to - t o d e a l w i th t h i s i n a c c u r a c y o r o m is s io n ? M R T S O T S I : A lr i g h t . Ye s t e r d a y w h a t w e d e a lt w it h w a s th e f a c t th a t I Page 23 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 o n ly p i c k e d u p t h i s m a t te r a f t e r th e r o u n d r o b i n h a d b e e n r e t u r n e d . I n f a c t t h e r e a s o n w h y I h a d r e a s o n t o r e lo o k a t i t w a s b e c a u s e t h e Secretariat came to me and told me that the round robin had been s ig n e d a n d i t w a s - a n d I w a n t e d t o s e e w h o h a d s i g n e d o r h a d n o t s ig n e d th e r o u n d r o b in a n d th e n o n l o o k i n g a t t h e d o c u m e n t I r e a lis e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a - t h e r e w e r e th e s e e r r o r s i n i t a n d I t h e n e l e c te d to d e a l w i th t h is m a t t e r a t t h e n e x t B o a r d M e e ti n g , b e c a u s e it w a s n o t t o o far from then. I th in k i t w a s s o m e t h in g l ik e a w e e k o r s o b e f o r e t h a t n e x t 10 m e e ti n g a n d s o a t t h a t n e x t m e e t in g - li k e I s a i d y e s t e r d a y. I do not r e c a l l w h e t h e r I i n it i a t e d t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n r e g a r d in g t h e s e e r r o r s , b u t w h a t I d o r e c a l l i s th a t t h e r e w a s a r e m a r k w h i c h w a s m a d e b y o n e o f t h e B o a r d M e m b e r s w h e n th e i s s u e o f t h e T N A w a s - w a s m e n ti o n e d . T h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t t h e r o u n d r o b i n r e fl e c t e d t h e f a c t t h a t M r C h o e u w a s n o l o n g e r i n t h e c o m p a n y a n d t h a t w a s n o t - a n d - a n d u n d e r s t o o d t h a t th a t w a s q u e s ti o n a b l e . I o f c o u r s e m a d e t h e p o in t t h a t n o . T h e r e i s a n e r r o r i n th e - in t h e r o u n d r o b i n in in th a t r e g a r d a n d I s e e m t o r e c a ll th a t I m a d e a n a p o l o g y t o th e B o a r d t o s a y t h a t n o t o n l y w a s - n o t o n ly w a s t h e r e a n e r r o r, b u t a ls o t h a t 20 t h e r e w a s s o m e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t t h e B o a r d h a d n o t r e c e iv e d t h a t th e y s h o u l d h a v e r e c e iv e d . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Now in - in your understanding as a Board a n d a s y o u r o w n p e r s o n a l s e l f o n w h o m d i d t h e d u t y t o i n s t it u t e d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s l ie o n ? T h e B o a r d o r t h e m a n a g e m e n t ? CHAIRPERSON: Be - before that … Page 24 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Mr N g c e b e ts h a y o u h a d a s k e d h i m t o id e n ti fy t h e errors … ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Oh yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a s i d e n ti f ie d o n ly o n e . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : O k a y. J a . CHAIRPERSON: There maybe more. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: O k a y. S o le t u s s e e if t h e r e is a n o t h e r one. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s - l e t u s c o m p l e te t h a t fi r s t . MR TSOTSI: O k a y. T h e n - t h e - t h e s u b s e q u e n t - t h e f o l lo w in g s e n te n c e t h e r e a f te r i s c le a r ly n o t c o r r e c t a ls o f o r t h e s a m e r e a s o n th a t t h e f ir s t o n e i s n o t , b e c a u s e i t h a s n o t h i n g to d o w i th M r C h o s e . T h e r o ta t io n o f t h e B o a r d h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h Mr C h o s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: W o u ld it have anything to do with M r M a tji l a ? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . I t w a s a c t u a l ly i n r e fe r e n c e t o h i m t h a t it a p p li e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Ja. S o w o u l d y o u s a y i t is - is it - is i t in a c c u r a t e ? M R T S O T S I : I t is in a c c u r a t e . Ye s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: As it relates to? M R T S O T S I : To M r C h o e u . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 25 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: I s i t in a c c u r a t e ? D o e s i t r e l a te t o M r M a tji l a ? M R T S O T S I : N o . I t is n o t . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : I s e e . W h a t e ls e d i d y o u p i c k u p t h a t w a s …? M R T S O T S I : O k a y. L e t u s s e e . I t h i n k t h o s e a r e b a s ic a l ly th e i s s u e s o f t h e i n a c c u r a c y a s fa r a s I c a n r e m e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I th o u g h t t h e r e w e r e m o r e th a n t h a t , b u t i t m a y be because I - I may have misunderstood something. I th o u g h t th e r e w a s - y o u h a d s a i d s o m e t h i n g a l s o i n r e la ti o n t o t h e p a r a g r a p h t h a t c o m e s a f te r t h e b u l l e t p o i n t a t p a g e 1 - 4 - 5 . T h a t s a y s : “ T h e B o a r d r e c o g n is e s th a t th e r e i s v a l u e . ” B u t I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u . M R T S O T S I : C h a ir, th e - t h e c o n t e n t io n o f Ms H o f m e y r y e s t e r d a y w a s that … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : T h is is i n c o r r e c t , b e c a u s e h e r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t t h e 20 - t h e B o a r d h a d i n f a c t s a id t h a t w a s n o v a lu e i n th e c o n t r a c t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : A n d t h e n w e t h e n t a lk e d a b o u t c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : Vis - à - v i s , t h e in tr i n s i c v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u s a i d t h e B o a r d h a d n o t p a s s e d ju d g m e n t Page 26 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 on whether there was not … (intervenes)? MR TSOTSI: What I said yesterday … C H A I R P E R S O N : H u h - u h . Ye s te r d a y. M R T S O T S I : I f - i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR TSOTSI: Is t h a t t h e B o a r d d i d n o t s a y th e r e w a s n o c o m m e r c ia l value … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R T S O T S I : In t h e c o n tr a c t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR TSOTSI: A n d t h e - t h e i s s u e o f v a lu e d i d n o t - w a s n o t a n i s s u e t h a t th e B o a r d p a s s e d j u d g m e n t o n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : In t e r m s o f la c k o f v a lu e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : In t h e c o n tr a c t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : Vis - à - v i s c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. 20 M R T S O T S I : A n d t h a t is th e p o i n t I w a s tr y in g t o s tr e s s to s a y … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR TSOTSI: N o tw i th s ta n d i n g t h e fa c t t h a t t h e r e w a s t h e p e r c e p ti o n t h a t th e ir r e g u l a r i ty o c c a s i o n e d t h e p r o b l e m w i t h u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t th e c o n tr a c t w a s n o t f a v o u r a b l e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. Page 27 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R T S O T S I : Fr o m E s k o m ’s p e r s p e c ti v e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. MR TSOTSI: Did not preclude the fact that there could and would be c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e i n t h e c o n tr a c t . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : J a . S o I - l e t m e le a v e it a t th a t . I d o n o t w a n t to b o a r d e r i n t o l e a d in g o r . . . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Ar g u m e n t . Ja. Let us leave it at that. I think … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d a s k e d a q u e s t io n a b o u t d i s c i p l i n a r y. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o n w h o - o n w h o m t h e d u ty t o d is c i p li n e a n e m p l o y e e - fu ll t i m e e m p l o y e e o f Es k o m - w h e r e d i d i t l ie w i t h th e B o a r d o r w i t h th e M a n a g e m e n t Te a m ? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir, m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t t h e d u ty l ie s w i t h m a n a g e m e n t . T h e e x e c u t i o n li e s w i t h m a n a g e m e n t . 20 ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: A n d y o u - w h a t th e n w o u ld y o u r - w o u l d h a v e b e e n y o u r r e a s o n a b l e e x p e c t a ti o n i n - i n t h e li g h t o f th e s e c l e a r tr a n s a c ti o n - tr a n s g r e s s i o n s i n a s f a r a s t h e e m p lo y e e t h a t r e m a i n e d i n the manner - in the form of Mr Choeu? M R T S O T S I : M y e x p e c t a ti o n w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h a t m a n a g e m e n t w o u l d in s t i tu t e a n i n q u ir y w h ic h w o u ld le a d t h e n t o a d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s , Page 28 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 b e c a u s e o f w h a t tr a n s p ir e d a t th e ti m e o f t h e s i g n i n g o f t h is c o n tr a c t . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: So of course you left as you said on 31 March 2015? M R T S O T S I : C o r r e c t. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : D o y o u k n o w i f a n y t h i n g w a s d o n e b y th e n ? M R T S O T S I : N o . I d o n o t k n o w. A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : R i g h t. CHAIRPERSON: I - I w o n d e r M r Ts o ts i - t h is is ju s t a t h o u g h t t h a t c o m e s t o m y m i n d a s I l is t e n to th e e v i d e n c e . I - I w o n d e r w h e t h e r it 10 w o u ld h a v e b e e n o p e n to m a n a g e m e n t o r t h e E x e c u t iv e s o r C E O to d is c i p l i n e a n y e m p l o y e e o r M r C h o e u f o r w h a t h e d i d i f s u b s e q u e n t ly t h e B o a r d h a d r a t i fi e d t h a t c o n tr a c t . M R T S O T S I : C h a ir m a n … CHAIRPERSON: Yo u - y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b le t o s a y. It is just a thought. M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u s a y l o o k I c a n n o t c o m m e n t . I w i ll a c c e p t . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C h a ir, I - I w o u l d n o t k n o w. I th i n k i t w o u l d d e p e n d o n t h e - o n f ir s t o f a ll w h a t th e … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e r e a s o n s fo r r a t if ic a ti o n . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : R e a s o n s fo r r a ti fi c a t io n a n d I t h i n k i t w il l a l s o d e p e n d o n how the management or rather not the management, but the Board v ie w s th e n t h a t - t h a t s i t u a t i o n . W h e t h e r i n f a c t r a ti f ic a t i o n w il l a b s o lv e Page 29 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 h i m f r o m - f r o m b e i n g d is c i p l in e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e m y - m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f r a ti f ic a t i o n is th a t y o u a r e a c t u a l ly s a y i n g t o s o m e b o d y. I approve what you did. Yo u understand what I mean? M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I approve what you did. Yo u m i g h t h a v e d o n e i t w i t h o u t c h e c k i n g w i th m e w h e t h e r I w o u l d g iv e i t my b l e s s i n g , b u t n o w that I have seen it I approve. T h a t is - t h a t i s t h e o r d in a r y m e a n in g t h a t I a t ta c h t o r a t if y i n g . It m a y w e l l b e t h a t i n a p a r t ic u l a r c o n te x t it 10 m i g h t m e a n s o m e th i n g e l s e , b u t w e c a n l e a v e i t a t t h a t , b u t I w a s j u s t s h a r i n g w i th y o u w h a t w a s g o i n g o n i n my m i n d . O k a y. M R T S O T S I : I t h o u g h t t h a t w o u l d a p p l y t o M r M a t ji la … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR TSOTSI: But … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : I t h in k M r C h o e u w o u l d h a v e b e e n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R T S O T S I : C h a r g e d w i t h s o m e t h i n g d i ff e r e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. Yo u - y o u m u s t h e l p m e , b e c a u s e I m i g h t 20 n o t r e c a ll t h e n i t ty - g r i tt y. M a y b e - m a y b e it m i g h t b e - it m i g h t a p p ly t o M r M a tji l a a s y o u s a y. N o t to M r C h o e u . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I might not recall the n i tt y - g r i t ti e s d i ff e r e n c e in t e r m s o f w h a t th e y d i d . Ye s . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : P e r h a p s to a s s is t to d ir e c t . Page 30 of 187 about the 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : W h a t w a s t h e c o m p la i n t a g a in s t M r C h o e u ? MR TSOTSI: T h e c o m p l a i n t - if I r e c a l l v e r y w e l l a g a i n s t Mr C h o e u - w a s t h e f a c t t h a t h e h a d b e e n p a r t y to r e m o v i n g t h e t e r m i n a t io n c l a u s e in t h e c o n tr a c t . Th a t w a s t h e c o m p la in t w h ic h w a s r a is e d b y t h e S N G Report. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: A n d w h a t - w h a t w e r e t h e i m p l ic a ti o n s i n y o u r m in d o f t h e r e m o v a l o f t h e t e r m i n a t io n c l a u s e ? MR TSOTSI: 10 T h e r e m o v a l o f t h e t e r m in a ti o n c l a u s e t h e n c r e a t e s e x p o s u r e f o r E s k o m a n d i t - i t m e a n s t h a t t h e a b il it y o f th e B o a r d a n d m a n a g e m e n t t o p r o t e c t t h e in t e g r i ty o f t h e c o m p a n y i s d i m in is h e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR TSOTSI: B y t h a t a c t io n . S o f r o m t h e B o a r d ’s s t a n d p o i n t t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a f i d u c i a r y p r o b l e m t h a t c o u l d b e a s s o c ia t e d w i t h t h e Board in - in that action. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll - w e l l n o w th a t y o u h a v e r e m i n d e d m e e x a c tl y w h a t h e h a d d o n e . M a y b e it a p p li e s t o h i m a s w e ll … MR TSOTSI: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: 20 B e c a u s e h e d o e s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g in r e l a t io n to a c o n tr a c t. T h a t c o n tr a c t i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h h e d i d s o m e t h i n g w r o n g is b r o u g h t t o y o u t o a p p r o v e . Yo u a w a r e t h a t - y o u a r e a w a r e o f th e t h i n g - t h e w r o n g t h i n g th a t h e h a d d o n e - h e h a s d o n e t o th e c o n tr a c t a n d y o u s a y n e v e r t h e l e s s w e e m b r a c e t h e c o n t r a c t . I f y o u l o o k a t i t fr o m … MR TSOTSI: I see. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e id e a o f a p p r o v in g . Yo u - y o u … Page 31 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u e m b r a c e i t w it h t h e a b s e n c e o f t h a t t e r m i n a t i o n c la u s e . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d o n o t s a y n o , n o , n o . Th is - t h i s i s b a d . We c a n n o t a p p r o v e a c o n tr a c t t h a t d o e s n o t h a v e s u c h a n i m p o r t a n t c l a u s e f o r Es k o m t o e s c a p e if i t n e e d s t o e s c a p e f r o m - f r o m t h is . So, but a g a in I a m j u s t s h a r i n g t h o u g h t th a t a r e g o in g th r o u g h m y - i n m y m in d . G iv i n g y o u a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o s a y t h a t is n o t h o w w e s a w i t . T h i s is h o w w e - w e s a w it o r m a y b e w e - w e c a n s e e th a t 10 point, but we did not think of it or we thought of it, but because of A, B, C , D w e n e v e r th e l e s s th o u g h t w e w o u l d r a ti fy. I a m j u s t w a n t in g t o m a k e s u r e th a t I d o n o t s k ip t h e s e c o n c e r n s in m y m in d … MR TSOTSI: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: And - and after you are gone I worry about them w i t h o u t h e a r in g w h a t y o u m i g h t s a y if - a b o u t t h e m i f y o u h a v e a n y t h i n g t o s a y. M R T S O T S I : J a . I - I a p p r e c ia t e C h a ir. T h a t in t e r p r e t a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 20 MR TSOTSI: It - as I say I - maybe not … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u … MR TSOTSI: M a y b e n o t b e i n g c o n v e r s a n t w i th t h e l a w. ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t f e e l fr e e … M R T S O T S I : I a m l i m it e d i n - i n a b ili t y … Page 32 of 187 I - I am … 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : F e e l f r e e t o - t o s a y I d o n o t t h in k I c a n c o m m e n t o r I c a n c o m m e n t - I c a n n o t c o m m e n t i f t h a t i s t h e p o s i t io n . I a m - I w a s ju s t s h a r in g w i t h y o u . M R T S O T S I : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I f y o u - y o u h a v e s o m e t h in g to s a y y o u c a n s a y, b u t i f y o u f e e l t h a t y o u a r e u n a b l e o r i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t m i g h t n e e d f u r th e r t h o u g h t . It is fi n e . M R T S O T S I : Ye s C h a ir. I t h i n k - I t h i n k le t m e j u s t l e a v e i t a t t h a t f o r f o r my p e r s p e c tiv e . Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : J a . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I m u s t s a y t h a t t h e n a t u r e o f t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n i s a b i t l e a n in g m o r e o n t h e l e g a l t e c h n ic a l s id e w h ic h .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: I - I agree. I agree. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: A n d m y li m i t a ti o n i s th a t I d o n o t w a n t to le a d t h e w i tn e s s , b u t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: S h o u l d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty p r e s e n t i t s e l f t o m a k e s u b m is s i o n s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : To - t o p r e s e n t a r g u m e n t s . Ye s . J a . N o , n o , n o . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : I n t e r m s o f a r g u m e n t . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o . T h a t is . . . [ in t e r v e n e s ] A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : To c o n t e x t u a li s e o u r . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . A D V J O H N N G C E B E T S H A : U n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] Page 33 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Evidence. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . No, no. T h a t - t h a t is fi n e . The - the whole id e a is s i m p ly t h a t s o m e t h i n g i s p r e s e n t e d to t h e B o a r d t h a t h a s g o t w o r r y in g fe a t u r e s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o n e e x p e c ts t h e B o a r d t o a p p ly th e ir m in d t o - to t h e i s s u e s a n d th e n m a k e a d e c i s i o n , m a y b e o n s o m e is s u e s th e y m a y s a y w e n e e d a d v ic e , o n o t h e r s t h e y s a y w e c a n m a k e a d e c i s i o n b la h 10 b l a h - b l a h , b u t a s I s a y t h e r e s h o u l d b e a n o p p o r tu n i t y fo r a r g u m e n t m a y b e i n w r i ti n g o r s o m e t h in g a t a l a t e r s t a g e j a . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: B u t m o r e i m p o r t a n tly o n t h is q u e s ti o n d id L e d w a b a M z w a i o p in i o n d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e o f M r C h o e u , d i d th e y h a v e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n a b o u t h i m , w h e th e r h e c o u l d b e d is c i p l in e d o r n o t MR TSOTSI: Ye s th e y d i d d e a l w i t h , t h e y d i d d e a l w i th i t , a n d t h e y c o n c u r r e d i n t h e ir c o m m e n t w i th t h e S N G c o n c lu s i o n a b o u t t h e d is c i p l i n a r y. ADV JOHN NGCEBET SHA: D id t h e B o a r d a c c e p t th a t a d v ic e t o i m p l e m e n t i t? 20 MR TSOTSI: Ye s t h e B o a r d a c c e p te d t h a t a d v ic e . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Thank you very much. Now if I may move t o t h e n e x t is s u e a n d p e r h a p s b e fo r e I f o r g e t i t’s a t y o u r in i ti a l s ta g e s o f y o u r t e s ti m o n y y e s t e r d a y y o u m e n t io n e d y o u h a d b e e n l e d t o b e l ie v e b y M r D a n M a t ji le th e t h e n C h ie f Ex e c u ti v e t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t h a d b e e n in p l a c e p r i o r to y o u r c o m m e n c e m e n t a s C h a ir m a n o f y o u r d u t ie s . Page 34 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR TSOTSI: Ye s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: A n d th e n la t e r o n m y le a r n e d fr i e n d w a s a b ly a b l e to d e m o n s tr a te t o y o u t h a t th e c o n tr a c t w a s o n ly e n te r e d i n t o in A p r i l o f 2 0 1 2 w h i c h w o u l d h a v e b e e n s o m e f e w m o n th s a f te r y o u c o m m e n c e d y o u r r o l e a s C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d . CHAIRPERSON: J u s t r a is e y o u r v o ic e Mr N g c e b e ts h a . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Thank you. M y l e a r n e d fr i e n d w a s a b le t o d e m o n s t r a t e b y r e f e r e n c e t o d o c u m e n ts th a t th e fir s t c o n tr a c t w a s e n t e r e d i n t o s o m e ti m e i n A p r il 2 0 1 2 b e f o r e y o u r c o m m e n c e m e n t o f 10 d u t ie s a s C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d . MR TSOTSI: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: CHAIRPERSON: Now what is your comment there? I ’ m s o r r y, I a m n o t s u r e i f t h a t i s c o r r e c t , I t h o u g h t t h a t Mr Ts o t s i ’s e v i d e n c e , c e r t a in ly a t t h e b e g i n n i n g w a s th a t w h e n h e w a s a p p o in t e d a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d E s k o m h a d a c o n tr a c t w i th T N A a lr e a d y b u t I t h i n k M s H o f m e y r s o u g h t to s a y i t w a s e n te r e d i n t o a ft e r h e h a d b e e n a p p o i n te d , th a t ’s m y r e c o l le c t i o n . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: CHAIRPERSON: 20 T h a t’s p r e c is e ly w h a t I a m s a y in g . O h n o I t h i n k y o u m a y h a v e s a i d s o m e th in g d i ff e r e n t . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: A lr ig h t , o k a y, m a y b e t h a t w a s a s li p o f th e t o n g u e , t h a t is e x a c t ly w h a t I a m tr y i n g t o s a y. D o y o u w a n t t o c la r i fy how that confusion could have come about? MR TSOTSI: C h a i r y e s I w a s n o t u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e c o n t r a c t s t o d o w i t h t h e b r o a d c a s t , t h e b r e a k fa s t . E s k o m h a d a r e la t io n s h ip w i t h T N A a n d t h a t h a d to d o w i th t h e n e w s p a p e r s , b e fo r e Page 35 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 I a r r i v e d , s o t h e r e w a s s o m e c o n tr a c t th a t e x i s te d w h ic h h a d t o d o w i t h t h e m s e l li n g n e w s p a p e r s to E s k o m a n d t o o t h e r S O E ’s , s o I – m y s t a te m e n t w a s e s s e n ti a lly j u s t t o s a y t h e r e h a d b e e n s o m e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h T N A , b u t th e o n e t h a t w e w e r e f o c u s i n g o n to d o w it h th is p a r t ic u l a r is s u e o f b r e a k f a s t c a m e a b o u t a f t e r I c a m e y e s . CHAIRPERSON: C a m e a b o u t a f t e r, ja , o k a y. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: T h e n a tu r e o f s u c h r e la t io n s h i p w e r e y o u p r i v y to ? MR TSOTSI: 10 W e ll I w o u l d n o t o r d in a r il y b e p r i v y to t h e m , t o i t , b u t i n t h is i n s t a n c e b e c a u s e th e n e w s p a p e r s w e r e a l l o v e r t h e p l a c e , I w a s – I h a d a n o c c a s io n to a s k t h e C h i e f E x e c u t iv e w h y w e ’r e h a v in g s o m a n y o f h is n e w s p a p e r s a n d I w a s t o ld t h a t . .. [ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: W e r e t h e y n o t ic e a b l y m a n y ? T h e y w e r e i n h e a p s C h a ir a r o u n d – s tr a te g i c a ll y p l a c e d . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] . CHAIRPERSON: I th i n k I h a v e h e a r d s o m e e v i d e n c e t h a t e l s e w h e r e a ls o t h e r e w e r e h e a p s a n d b u n d l e s a n d b u n d l e s o f t h e m . I n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts o r S O E ’s o r Pr o v in c i a l D e p a r t m e n ts , s o y o u n o t ic e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e lo ts o f n e w s p a p e r s fr o m – w a s i t t h e – t h e 20 New Age? MR TSOTSI: It w a s th e N e w A g e j a CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: It was the New Age. Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, t h a t’s w h e n y o u e n q u ir e d w h a t ’s t h e s t o r y a n d t h e n y o u g o t t o k n o w. Page 36 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR TSOTSI: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: As a m a t t e r o f f a c t w o u ld y o u h a v e b e e n p r i v y t o t h e d e t a i ls o f t h is c o n t r a c t h a d th e r e b e e n n o ir r e g u l a r i ty e n t e r e d i n t o b y Mr M a t ji la , e v e n t h e u n d e r s u b j e c t o f c o n v e r s a ti o n n o w. MR TSOTSI: W e l l w e w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n p r iv y t o t h e c o n tr a c t p e r s e b u t b e c a u s e w e w e r e in v i t e d t o t h is b r e a k f a s t , s o m e ti m e s e v e n m a k in g a p r e s e n ta t io n o b v i o u s l y w e w o u l d b e a w a r e o f t h e b u t a s t o w h e n c o n tr a c ts w e r e e n t e r e d i n to , e v e n t h e v a l u e y o u w o u ld n o t k n o w u n le s s 10 y o u s p e c if ic a l ly a s k e d . Th e d e l e g a t io n o f a u th o r i ty f o r t h e s e c o n tr a c ts w a s y o u k n o w a t m a n a g e m e n t le v e l , i t w a s n o t – i t h a d n o t e x c e e d e d m a n a g e m e n t l e v e l t o th e e x te n t t h a t it n e e d e d t o b e d e c id e d b y th e Bard. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: A s a m a t te r o f i n te r e s t a n d I t h o u g h t I c o n c l u d e d o n t h is p o i n t b u t n o w t h a t y o u m e n ti o n it , y o u y o u r s e l f w e r e in v i te d w i t h m a n a g e m e n t m e m b e r s t o t h e b r e a k fa s t s e s s io n s y o u s a y ? MR TSOTSI: O n o c c a s i o n I w i ll b e i n v i t e d y e s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: W o u ld t h e r e b e v a l u e in y o u g o i n g t h e r e f o r Es k o m ? 20 MR TSOTSI: W e l l c l e a r ly I w o u l d s e e v a l u e b e c a u s e I w o u l d g e t a n o p p o r t u n i ty to s a y s o m e t h i n g , t o p r e s e n t s o m e th i n g . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: A lr i g h t I d o n ’ t w a n t to b e l a b o u r t h e p o i n t, le t ’s m o v e o n . CHAIRPERSON: I k n o w th a t w e h a v e t a k e n a s m u c h a s w e h a v e t a k e n b e c a u s e I h a v e a l s o b e e n a s k i n g q u e s ti o n s b u t I d o n ’ t k n o w if y o u h a v e Page 37 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t o o m a n y t h i n g s to c l a r i fy, I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w m u c h m o r e t i m e ? ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: CHAIRPERSON: P e r h a p s f iv e t o s e v e n m i n u t e s . O k a y th a t ’s fi n e . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Thank you. N o w t w o p o in ts a n d t h e n I t h i n k w e w i ll b e d o n e . T h e f ir s t o n e i s y o u m e n ti o n e d s o m e t h in g a b o u t a c o n v e r s a ti o n y o u h a d w i t h M r To n y G u p t a , w h ic h i n y o u r m i n d la t e r o n h e m a d e c e r ta in f u r th e r s t a te m e n ts t h a t in y o u r m i n d w e r e t h r e a te n i n g . C a n y o u e x p l a i n w h a t y o u m e a n t b y th a t a n d m a y b e fo r th e b e n e f i t o f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n le t m e m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t d is c u s s i n g w i t h m y 10 c o l l e a g u e , th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r, t h e r e i s a s e s s io n c o m i n g u p t o f o c u s o n o t h e r a s p e c t s b u t th is o n e s til l i s w i t h i n t h e TN I , s o t h a t ’s w h y I w a n t to cover it. Thank you. MR TSOTSI: Ye s C h a ir f o l lo w in g o n t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t I h a d w i t h To n y G u p t a a s I s a id y e s t e r d a y a t t h e ir o ff ic e c le a r ly h e w a s n o t h a p p y t h a t I d i d n o t o r w a s n o t w ill i n g t o a s s is t t h e m , e v e n t h o u g h I tr i e d t o e x p l a i n t o th e m t h a t E s k o m w a s a p r o c e s s - o r i e n t a te d o r g a n is a ti o n a n d t h e s e t h i n g s h a d t o b e d o n e th a t w a y. H e w a s v e r y u n h a p p y a b o u t i t . I t h e n o c c a s i o n t o a g a i n r u n i n to h i m a t t h e S O N A w h i c h w a s n o w i n F e b r u a r y o f th e fo ll o w i n g y e a r, i n 2 0 1 5 . 20 CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: 2015? Ye s . I h a d h a d a m e e ti n g w h e r e t h e M i n is t e r h a d c a ll e d m e s p e c if ic a l ly . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: MR TSOTSI: Which Minister? M i n is t e r B r o w n , w h e r e u p o n t h e M i n i s te r h a d – w e ll in t h i s in s t a n c e s h e w a s n o t h a p p y a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t I w a s s a id t o b e Page 38 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 in t e r fe r i n g w i t h m a n a g e m e n t b u t th a t ’s s o m e t h i n g w e c a n d e a l w i t h in m y n e x t s u b m is s io n . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: O k a y. B u t w h a t is p e r ti n e n t h e r e is th e f a c t th a t o n t h a t s a m e d a y I g o t a c a ll fr o m To n y G u p ta , a n d h e w a n t e d t o s p e a k t o m e a n d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: It w a s a f t e r m e e ti n g w it h t h e M i n is t e r. CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR TSOTSI: I s t h a t b e fo r e o r a f t e r th e m e e t in g w i t h t h e Mi n is te r ? O k a y. E s s e n ti a lly t h a t m e e t in g w i t h t h e M i n is t e r w a s a fa ll o u t b e t w e e n th e M i n is t e r a n d m y s e l f , to b e q u i t e fr a n k . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: O k a y. A n d th e ir o n y o f it is th a t I g o t a c a ll fr o m G u p t a , To n y G u p t a fo r m e t o s p e a k t o h i m . A t th a t m e e ti n g h e w a s v e r y fo r t h r ig h t . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y n o w i s t h a t a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n y o u a n d To n y Gupta? MR TSOTSI: To n y G u p t a y e s . CHAIRPERSON: S o h e c a l l e d y o u a n d a s k e d i f th e t w o o f y o u c o u l d meet. Same day? 20 MR TSOTSI: O k a y a lr i g h t, a n d y o u m e t , a n d i t’s o n e o f t h o s e m e e t in g s w h e r e th e p e r s o n d o e s n ’ t e v e n o ffe r y o u a s e a t , a n d y o u t a lk s t a n d i n g a n d th a t ’s th e e n d o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll y o u h a d h a d s u c h a m e e t i n g w it h t h e M i n is te r p r e v i o u s ly. MR TSOTSI: Ye s I s e e m t o r u n in t o t h o s e k in d o f t h i n g s . Page 39 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Ja, okay yes. To n y G u p t a w a s v e r y c le a r a n d h e s a id t o m e C h a ir m a n y o u a r e n o t a s s is t in g u s a n d b y u s I u n d e r s t o o d h i m t o m e a n h i s o r g a n i s a t io n . S o I s a i d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: I a s s u m e d h e m e a n t th e G u p ta F a m il y. CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: T N A o r t h e G u p ta F a m il y ? Ye s o k a y. B e c a u s e h e h a d a s k e d m e p r e v i o u s l y a n d t h a t w e w il l a ls o d e a l w it h la t e r o n m y o th e r e n c o u n t e r w i t h h i m , f o r s o m e b u s in e s s 10 f a v o u r s o I u n d e r s t o o d h i m to b e ta lk in g o n b e h a l f o f t h e ir b u s i n e s s a s a n o r g a n is a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: H e s a i d y o u a r e n o t a s s i s t in g . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] Yo u a r e n o t a s s i s t i n g u s , th o s e w e r e h is w o r d s . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: A n d e n t it i e s j a . Mmm. S o I a s k e d h i m , I s a i d I d o n ’t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u m e a n I am not assisting you. H e s a i d e v e r y t i m e w e w a n t s o m e t h i n g fr o m y o u , fr o m E s k o m y o u a r e n o t c o m i n g f o r t h w i t h s o m e th in g , a n d m i n d 20 y o u t h i s w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b o u t th e th ir d o r f u r th e r o r r a t h e r i t h a d o c c u r r e d a b o u t t h r e e o r fo u r ti m e s th a t h e a s k e d m e s o m e th i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , and was it tr u e that each time you . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] MR TSOTSI: I w a s n o t a b l e to a s s is t h i m e a c h ti m e a n d I t h i n k i f o n e lo o k s a t t h e p o r t fo li o c o m m i t t e e p r o c e e d i n g s y o u w o u l d k n o w w h a t Page 40 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 is s u e s w e r e r a is e d th e r e , a n d o n th is p a r t ic u l a r o c c a s i o n t h e n h e t h e n s a i d to m e C h a ir m a n w e a r e th e o n e s w h o p u t y o u i n t h e p o s it i o n y o u a r e i n a n d w e a r e t h e o n e s w h o c a n t a k e y o u o u t o f t h i s p o s i ti o n , s o . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: T h i s w a s F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 , th e d a y b e fo r e t h e S O N A . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: A n d th is w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r o u n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 . Mmm. A n d th e n I s a i d to h i m y o u d o w h a t y o u h a v e t o d o a n d le t m e d o th e jo b t h a t t h e c a b in e t h a s a s k e d m e t o d o , a n d t h a t t h e n 10 w a s t h e e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g , h e s i m p ly s h o w e d m e t h e d o o r a n d I l e f t . S o i n e s s e n c e C h a ir m a n t h is w a s – I t o o k t h is to b e a c le a r th r e a t a n d t h a t s o m e t h i n g w a s i m m i n e n t a n d o f c o u r s e a s h a d o c c u r r e d I th e n l e ft E s k o m in t h e m a t t e r o f a m o n t h l a t e r. CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: M m m , i n a b o u t a m o n t h a ft e r t h a t ? In a b o u t a m o n t h a f t e r t h a t? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s , a n d h a d s a i d – d i d y o u s a y h e h a d s a i d t h e y h a d p u t y o u th e r e , th e y c a n ta k e y o u o u t , h o w d i d h e p u t i t ? MR TSOTSI: T h a t i s e x a c t ly t h e w a y h e p u t i t , h e s a id w e a r e o n e s w h o p u t y o u th e r e , a n d w e a r e th e o n e s w h o c a n t a k e y o u o u t o f th e r e . 20 S o i t w a s v e r y u n a m b i g u o u s , i t w a s v e r y c l e a r. CHAIRPERSON: D id y o u k n o w w h a t h e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t w h e n h e said they were the ones who put you there? MR TSOTSI: C h a i r m a n I c o u l d o n ly s p e c u la t e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: O r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u w i ll d e a l w i th la t e r, y o u c o u l d o n ly s p e c u l a t e ? Page 41 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR TSOTSI: Ye s I c o u l d o n ly s p e c u l a te . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u h a d n o p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f p r e c is e l y w h a t h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t . MR TSOTSI: N o I d i d n o t h a v e a p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f p r e c is e l y w h a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t. CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Ye s , y e s . B u t I c o u l d c o n n e c t t h e d o t s i n te r m s o f w h e r e t h i s c o u l d b e c o m i n g fr o m . CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR TSOTSI: A n d w h a t w o u l d b e g o in g o n . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Ye s . Ye s , d o y o u w a n t to s h a r e th a t w i th m e ? O r is i t a lo n g s to r y t h a t y o u w a n t t o t e l l w h e n y o u c o m e back? MR TSOTSI: I w o u l d r a t h e r w e d o t h a t C h a ir w h e n I c o m e b a c k . CHAIRPERSON: it . O k a y, t h a t’s f in e , a s l o n g a s i n t h e e n d w e d e a l w i t h Ye s M r N g c e b e ts h a ? ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: F o r w h a t i t – f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f n o w d id t h is f a i lu r e a s a l le g e d o n y o u r p a r t i n c lu d e th e T N A c o n v e r s a ti o n h e h a d w i t h y o u e a r li e r i n w h ic h h e a s k e d y o u , a s y o u p u t i t y e s te r d a y, m a k e 20 t h is t h i n g g o a w a y. MR TSOTSI: O h d e f i n i t e ly, I w a s q u i t e c le a r th a t t h a t w a s t h e c a s e b e c a u s e d o n ’ t f o r g e t t h i s – t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n t o o k p l a c e I w o u l d s a y a b o u t a m o n t h a n d a h a l f p r i o r to h i m te ll in g m e w h a t I h a v e j u s t s a i d n o w, s o t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n fr e s h i n h is m i n d I w o u ld i m a g i n e . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: When you left Eskom end of March was it Page 42 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u h a d p r e f e r r e d t o d o o r y o u d id n o t? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir m a n i n m y s u b m is s i o n t o P a r li a m e n t I m a d e th e p o i n t t h a t m y e x i t fr o m E s k o m w a s o r c h e s t r a te d fr o m s o m e w h e r e , I s ti ll b e li e v e th a t a n d I h o p e t h a t s o m e o n e w i l l h a v e t h e d e c e n c y t o c o m e h e r e a n d t e l l u s e x a c t ly w h a t h a p p e n e d . B u t w h e n I c o n n e c t e d th o s e I s t il l b e l ie v e d t h a t i t w a s o r c h e s t r a t e d . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: L a s t p o i n t, y o u d i d m a k e m e n t io n y e s t e r d a y o f y o u r i n te r a c t i o n w i t h M in is t e r G ig a b a . MR TSOTSI: 10 Ye s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: A n d h o w y o u r e c e iv e d a t e l e p h o n e c a ll fr o m h i m i n w h i c h y o u v i e w e d h i m t o h a v e b e e n ir a t e w i t h y o u . D o y o u w a n t t o t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e C o m m i s s io n w h a t th e n a t u r e o f y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p h a d b e e n w i t h h i m ? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir p e r h a p s I s h o u ld h a v e s a i d t h i s y e s t e r d a y b u t y o u k n o w o n e r e a s o n w h y I w a s v e r y p e r p l e x e d a t t h e a p p r o a c h b y M in is t e r G ig a b a and th e c o n v e r s a ti o n was that I’d always had a good r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h h i m , I w o r k e d v e r y w e l l w it h h i m a n d I t h i n k t h e r e w a s m u t u a l r e s p e c t, a n d I m e a n I h a d k n o w n h i m f o r q u it e s o m e t i m e , p r i o r t o m y b e in g C h a i r m a n o f E s k o m d u r i n g h is d a y s o f th e Yo u t h L e a g u e o f 20 t h e A N C a n d w h e n I w a s n o w C h a ir m a n I h a d o c c a s io n a n u m b e r o f ti m e s to s p e n d a s u b s t a n ti a l a m o u n t o f ti m e w i t h h i m , w o r k r e la t e d t i m e w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t , a n d w h e n e v e r I n e e d e d t o m e e t w i th h i m o r s p e a k t o h i m a b o u t a n is s u e h e w a s a l w a y s a v a i la b l e , h e w o u l d a l w a y s m a k e t h e ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: O h ja h e w a s a l w a y s – a t th e ti m e ? Page 43 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR TSOTSI: Ye s h e w a s a lw a y s a v a il a b l e h e a l w a y s m a d e t h e ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Yo u h a d a g o o d w o r k i n g r e l a ti o n s h i p ? Ve r y g o o d w o r k i n g r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th h i m . T h a t i s w h y I w a s a b l e to p ic k u p i m m e d i a te ly, a s I s a i d y e s t e r d a y, th a t s o m e b o d y p u t h i m u p t o w h a t h e s a i d , I d o n ’t b e li e v e t h a t t h is c a m e f r o m h i m , I b e li e v e t h a t s o m e o n e h a d p u t h i m u p t o i t, a n d m a y b e h e w il l b e a b le to t e ll u s , I d o n ’ t k n o w b u t t h a t is m y c o n v ic t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s I m e a n y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t y o u h a d k n o w n h i m f o r a l o n g ti m e . 10 MR TSOTSI: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: F r o m t h e ti m e o f h is – w h e n h e w a s in t h e Yo u t h League you had known him. MR TSOTSI: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d a f t e r y o u h a d b e c o m e C h a ir m a n o f t h e B o a r d o f E s k o m a n d h e w a s M i n is t e r y o u h a d h a d a lo t o f ti m e t o w o r k w i t h h i m , s p e n t a l o t o f t i m e o n w o r k r e la t e d m a t t e r s w i t h h i m , y o u h a d d is c u s s io n s w i t h h i m , t h e t y p e o f p e r s o n t h a t , t h e t y p e o f r e l a ti o n s h i p t h a t y o u h a d w it h h i m w a s a v e r y g o o d o n e . MR TSOTSI: 20 Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: And you say that what he said to you on the occasion w h e n h e m a d e t h a t c a ll t o y o u , m a y b e y o u d i d n ’ t s a y t h i s b u t th is is h o w I u n d e r s t o o d , m a y b e t h e to n e o f h o w h e s p o k e to y o u , y o u s a i d b u t t h is i s n o t th e p e r s o n t h a t I k n o w, it i s lik e s o m e b o d y th a t I d o n ’ t k n o w. Is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e c o r r e c t ? MR TSOTSI: Ve r y c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 44 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y, i t w a s o u t o f c h a r a c t e r f o r h i m t o a c t t o w a r d s y o u i n t h is m a n n e r. MR TSOTSI: Ve r y m u c h s o . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: To s p e a k li k e t h is t o y o u ? Ve r y m u c h s o . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir a n d t h a n k y o u f o r i n d u lg in g u s , th a t is a l l th a t w e h a v e o n r e - e x a m in a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Thank you Mr Ngcebetsha. I t is a – it is a l w a y s g o o d w h e n o n e is d e a l i n g w i t h e x p e r i e n c e d p r a c ti ti o n e r s . ADV JOHN NGCEBETSHA: CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u s ir. I t h i n k o n e c a n t e ll . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y, th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir, C h a ir t h e r e is a n a s p e c t e v i d e n c e o f M r Ts o t s i ’s e v i d e n c e to d a y t h a t i s a d e v e l o p m e n t o n t h e e v i d e n c e y e s te r d a y a n d I w o n d e r i f t h e r e c o u l d b e o n e o r tw o f o ll o w u p q u e s t io n s fr o m m y s i d e , I d o n ’t i n t e n d t o t a k e lo n g a t a ll , b u t w i t h y o u r le a v e . CHAIRPERSON: Just a few minutes? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 CHAIRPERSON: Indeed. O k a y, a lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is ju s t t o g e t a p o i n t o f c l a r i f ic a ti o n o n c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e M r Ts o t s i , i t s e e m s t o h a v e d o m i n a t e d y e s t e r d a y a n d t h is m o r n i n g , b u t i t is q u i t e i m p o r t a n t fo r t h e r e c o r d s o f t h is c o m m i s s io n a n d a n y f in d i n g s t h a t m a y b e m a d e th a t w e a r e a b s o l u t e ly c l e a r a s t o your evidence on this. Page 45 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A s I u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v i d e n c e y e s te r d a y y o u a c c e p te d a t t h e ti m e t h e B o a r d t o o k t h e R o u n d R o b i n d e c is io n it i ts e l f h a d n o t a s s e s s e d t h e c o m m e r c i a l h a d n o t a s s e s s e d t h e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t is t h a t r i g h t ? MR TSOTSI: Ye s c o r r e c t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s to o d y o u t o d a y th o u g h t o g iv e a d i ff e r e n t a n s w e r a n d s a y th a t n o t h e r e h a d b e e n c o n s i d e r a t io n o f c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e a n d fo r t h a t p u r p o s e y o u r e l ie d o n w h a t Mr M a tj il a h a d s a i d i n h is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a n d t h e n y o u a d d e d a f e w o t h e r 10 c o n s i d e r a ti o n s , f o r e x a m p l e t h a t th is w a s n o t th e f ir s t c o n tr a c t , th a t E s k o m h a d p r e v i o u s l y c o n tr a c t e d w i t h T N A , a n d s o th e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e in it , d i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r te s t i m o n y th is m o r n in g c o r r e c tl y ? MR TSOTSI: N o t q u it e , w h e n I s a id t h a t th e r e h a v e b e e n o t h e r c o n tr a c ts th a t E s k o m h a d e n te r e d i n t o a n d E s k o m h a d h a d t o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e i s c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e f o r i t s e l f I w a s n o t s p e c i f ic a l ly r e fe r r i n g t o T N A , I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o c o n t r a c t s i n g e n e r a l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n le t m e c o n fi n e m y q u e s t io n , d i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u to d a y t o s a y t h a t t h e B o a r d t o o k in t o a c c o u n t M r 20 M a t jil a ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s o n c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e to a r r iv e a t a d e c i s i o n t h a t th e r e w a s c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e i n th e c o n tr a c t ? MR TSOTSI: T h e B o a r d lo o k e d a n d i n i ts d i s c u s s io n lo o k e d a t w h a t w a s b e fo r e it a n d o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t w a s b e fo r e it w a s i n a p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t M r M a tj il a h a d m a d e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I r e a ll y d o w a n t t o g e t c le a r h e r e Mr Ts o ts i Page 46 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 thank you. MR TSOTSI: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: Th o s e w e r e d i s c u s s i o n s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] B u t h e m ig h t n o t h a v e f in is h e d , h a v e y o u f i n is h e d your answer? MR TSOTSI: No. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: 10 before it and Apologies. J a , ju s t f in is h i t . I w a s s a y in g t h a t th e B o a r d h a d l o o k e d a t w h a t w a s one of the r e p r e s e n t a ti o n b y M r M a t ji la . t h in g s that was before it was this T h e B o a r d h a d w a n t e d M a tj il a t o c o m e a n d m a k e t h e r e p r e s e n ta t io n in p e r s o n , b e c a u s e t h a t w o u l d h a v e a l lo w e d u s a n e v e n b e tt e r o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o m e t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n , b u t w h a t w e t h e n s a id w a s th a t w e a r e n o t h e r e q u e s t io n i n g t h e f a c t t h a t w h e n th e c o n t r a c t w a s p u t t o g e t h e r t h e r e w a s a c o n s id e r a ti o n t h a t t h e r e w o u ld b e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e i n th e c o n tr a c t. That we were not q u e s t io n in g . A n d s o w e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t in o r d e r t h a t w e s h o u l d p r o c e e d f o r w a r d w e w o u l d p r o c e e d fo r w a r d o n t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e r e h a s 20 b e e n a c o n s id e r a ti o n th a t t h e c o n tr a c t w o u l d h a v e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e fr o m M r M a t ji la , s o w e w e r e s e p a r a ti n g t h e is s u e o f ir r e g u l a r i t y a n d th e is s u e o f t h e fa c t th a t o r d i n a r i ly t h is c o n tr a c t w o u ld h a v e h a d t o h a v e b e e n a s s e s s e d b y m a n a g e m e n t fo r i ts c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e , h e n c e w e d i d n o t s a y t h e c o n t r a c t d o e s n o t h a v e c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e b e c a u s e o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t th e c o n t r a c t n e c e s s a r il y w o u l d h a v e b e e n Page 47 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a s s e s s e d fo r c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e b y th e m a n a g e m e n t . N o w w h a t t h e n w e s a id w a s t h a t g iv e n t h a t le t u s t h e n e n s u r e t h a t m a n a g e m e n t c o n ti n u e s t o e x tr a c t a s m u c h c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e in t h e c o n tr a c t g o i n g f o r w a r d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u r l a w y e r s a d v is e d y o u t h a t y o u r s e l v e s a s a B o a r d d e te r m in e w h e t h e r t h e c o n tr a c t h a d c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e MR TSOTSI: T h e y d id m a k e t h a t s t a te m e n t y e s , t h e y d i d m a k e t h a t a d v ic e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e n y o u s a y i t w a s n e c e s s a r i ly t h e c a s e t h a t m a n a g e m e n t h a d p r e v i o u s l y a s s e s s e d c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e , w h y w o u ld t h a t n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e b e e n t h e c a s e ? MR TSOTSI: B e c a u s e t h a t’s t h e m a n d a te t h e y h a v e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s b u t t h is w a s a n i r r e g u l a r ly c o n c l u d e d c o n tr a c t, w h y s s h o u ld r e li a n c e b e p l a c e d b y t h e B o a r d b e i n g a s k e d t o r a ti fy ir r e g u la r c o n d u c t o n t h e v e r s io n o f t h e p e r s o n w h o c o m m i t t e d t h e ir r e g u l a r c o n d u c t ? MR TSOTSI: M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is th a t E s k o m h a s a c o m m e r c i a l d iv is io n a n d a d i v is i o n th a t l o o k s a f t e r t h e s e k i n d s o f c o n tr a c ts , a n d 20 t h a t w o r k w o u l d h a v e b e e n b y p e o p l e in t h a t d iv is i o n a n d t h is w o r k is n o t t h e f ir s t t i m e t h e y a r e d o i n g t h is ty p e o f w o r k . W h a t M r M a t ji la d i d a s a C h i e f Ex e c u t iv e w a s t o s i g n o ff o n t h e c o n tr a c t , h e h i m s e l f p r o b a b ly w a s n o t in v o lv e d i n d o i n g t h e w o r k , s o h i s a c ti o n d o e s n o t p r e c l u d e t h e fa c t t h a t E s k o m a s a n o r g a n is a ti o n w o u l d h a v e h a d t h e c a p a c i ty t o e v a lu a t e w h e t h e r c o n t r a c t s h a v e c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e fo r t h e Page 48 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 c o m p a n y o r n o t a n d t h e C h ie f E x e c u tiv e a ls o r e l ie s o n t h e s e p e o p l e t o h a v e a r r i v e d a t t h a t c o n c l u s i o n s o h i s s i g n a t u r e o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d ir r e g u l a r s ig n a tu r e o f t h e c o n t r a c t d o e s n o t t a k e a w a y t h e c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t i n o u r v i e w, th a t is w h a t w e s a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D i d y o u e n q u ir e o f M r M a tj il a w h e th e r h e h a d a s s e s s e d th e c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e h i ms e l f ? MR TSOTSI: Th e B o a r d d i d n o t h a v e th e o p p o r t u n i ty t o s p e a k t o h i m d ir e c t ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 B e c a u s e M r Ts o t s i t h e e v i d e n c e o f Mr C h o e u , w h o i s t h e o n ly o t h e r p e r s o n w h o w a s i n v o lv e d fr o m t h e d iv is io n i n a s s e s s i n g t h e v a l u e o f t h i s c o n tr a c t w a s th a t i t w a s M r M a tj il a w h o in s t r u c t e d h i m t o p u t t o g e t h e r th e p r o p o s a l s o t h a t t h e R 4 3 m ll i o n c o n tr a c t c o u l d b e c o n c l u d e d , a n d t h e n o n e M r C h o e u h a d d o n e s o th e y e n t e r e d i n to c o n tr a c t u a l n e g o ti a ti o n s , r e m o v e d t h e t e r m i n a t io n c l a u s e a n d th e n t h a t c o n tr a c t w a s s ig n e d w i t h M r M a tj il a . If you had known t h o s e fa c t s a t t h e ti m e w o u l d y o u h a v e w it h c a u ti o n a p p r o a c h e d w h a t M r M a tji l a t o ld y o u a b o u t t h e v a lu e o f t h e c o n tr a c t ? MR TSOTSI: If we had known that Eskom did not do the necessary to e v a l u a t e th e c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t t h e n n o t o n ly w o u l d w e 20 h a v e n o t ta k e n f o r w a r d t h e c o n tr a c t th e w a y w e d id b u t w e w o u ld h a v e c e r t a i n l y s o u g h t s o m e r e tr ib u ti o n o f s o m e s o r t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a ir th o s e a r e m y q u e s t io n s . Th a n k y o u , j u s t o n e l a s t q u e s ti o n . Shouldn’t the B o a r d h a v e s a i d w e w a n t t o b e s a t is fi e d t h a t t h e r e i s c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e o n t h is c o n tr a c t b e fo r e w e c a n r a ti f y th e s e ir r e g u la r i ti e s t h a t h a v e b e e n Page 49 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 c o m m i t t e d h e r e , b e c a u s e i f w e – i f y o u a s m a n a g e m e n t f a il t o s a t is fy u s t h a t t h e r e is c o m m e r c i a l v a l u e f o r E s k o m i n t h is c o n tr a c t w e w o u ld s e e n o v a li d r e a s o n t o r a ti fy t h is c o n tr a c t a n d a ll o f t h e s e ir r e g u la r i ti e s . T h e o n l y t h in g t h a t c a n p e r s u a d e u s t o r a ti fy s o m e t h in g th a t i s s o w r o n g , is i f w h e n w e l o o k a t t h e c o m m e r c ia l v a lu e o f t h e c o n t r a c t w e s a y i t i s w it h u s , d o i n g w h a t w e w o u ld n o r m a lly n o t d o , n a m e ly r a ti fy t h e s e ir r e g u l a r i ti e s . MR TSOTSI: C h a i r m a n y o u k n o w I th i n k i n h i n d s i g h t t h e r e is a l o t o f m e r i t i n w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g , I c e r t a in ly a g r e e t h e r e is a lo t o f m e r i t i n 10 it , b u t a t t h e t i m e w h e n w e ’r e d e a l i n g w it h th is m a t t e r I c e r t a i n l y w a s c le a r o n th e fa c t t h a t o n e n e e d e d t o s e p a r a t e w h a t o r d i n a r i ly Es k o m w o u ld d o i n a s i tu a ti o n li k e t h i s h a d t h e r e n o t b e e n a n i r r e g u l a r i ty. E v e n i f f o r a r g u m e n t ’s s a k e a s a B o a r d w e h a d h e a r d th a t E s k o m w a s e n te r i n g i n to a c o n tr a c t w it h T N A t h e fir s t q u e s ti o n w e w o u ld h a v e a s k e d w a s is t h e r e a n y v a lu e i n t h is c o n tr a c t f o r th e c o m p a n y. CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: T h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e f i r s t q u e s t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR TSOTSI: Pr e c is e ly ja . T h a t m u s t b e t h e f ir s t q u e s ti o n y e s . Ye s . S o I t h in k i f y o u p i c tu r e t h e s i t u a t i o n a t t h e t i m e i t w a s o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t t h i s is w h a t th e c o m p a n y is s u p p o s e d t o d o , t h e ir j o b is t o e n s u r e t h a t c o n tr a c ts th a t a r e s i g n e d b y E s k o m h a v e a v a l u e f o r t h e c o m p a n y, o t h e r w is e t h e y h a v e n o r e a s o n to b e i n t h e c o m p a n y. CHAIRPERSON: Ex a c t ly j a . Page 50 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR TSOTSI: S o t h is is h o w w e p r o c e e d e d i n t e r m s o f o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e fa c t th a t n e c e s s a r il y t h e r e m u s t b e v a lu e i n t h is c o n tr a c t i f Es k o m is s i g n i n g a c o n t r a c t o f t h is n a t u r e , ir r e s p e c t iv e o f i n f a c t w h o t h e c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n c o n tr a c te d w i t h . CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Of course. So the fact that we did not take the step ourselves to v e r i fy i n h i n d s i g h t t o m e s a y s p e r h a p s i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b i g g e r in s u r a n c e fo r u s to s a y w e a r e c e r t a i n t h a t t h e r e is v a l u e in t h is c o n tr a c t b u t o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f v a l u e i n t h e c o n tr a c t is b e c a u s e t h a t 10 is w h a t m a n a g e m e n t is s u p p o s e d t o d o , t h a t is w h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n engaged by the company to do. CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: Mmm, mmm. A n d i f t h e j u d g m e n t a s to t h e i n d iv id u a l w h o w a s i n v o l v e d in t h e tr a n s g r e s s i o n s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e c l o u d e d o r s h o u l d n o t c l o u d t h e f a c t t h a t t h e c o m p a n y h a s g o t th e c a p a c i ty a n d n o r m a lly w o u l d h a v e th e c a p a c i ty t o e n s u r e t h a t i ts c o n tr a c ts h a v e v a l u e f o r th e c o m p a n y, s o t h a t i s w h e r e w e w e r e i n o u r m i n d s , a n d b y th e w a y C h a ir m a n t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g a l s o , w h ic h w a s a t t h e ti m e v e r y i m p o r t a n t, a n d th a t w a s t h e f a c t t h a t Es k o m w a s in a g o in g c o n c e r n s i tu a ti o n , a n d i t w a s a v e r y 20 c r i ti c a l s i t u a t i o n . I n f a c t I r e c a ll e v e n . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u s a y g o in g c o n c e r n s i tu a ti o n a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t i t s s ta t u s a s a g o i n g c o n c e r n w a s i n d a n g e r o r s o m e th in g l ik e th a t ? MR TSOTSI: S e r io u s d a n g e r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Page 51 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR TSOTSI: To t h e e x te n t t h a t I c a l l e d , I s p o k e t o t h e F D , i n fa c t t h e F D . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: T h e F in a n c ia l D ir e c t o r. CHAIRPERSON: MR TSOTSI: To w h o ? O h , t h e F in a n c i a l D ir e c t o r. A n d h e s a i d t o m e C h a ir m a n w e h a v e a v e r y s e r i o u s c a s h fl o w p r o b le m i n t h e o r g a n is a t i o n , w e m a y n o t e v e n b e a b l e to p a y s a l a r i e s c o m e J a n u a r y, a n d I r e c a ll v e r y c l e a r ly a s k i n g th e M i n i s te r, c a l li n g t h e M i n is te r a n d s a y i n g M i n is t e r – n o t a s k i n g b u t c a u ti o n i n g th e 10 M i n is t e r t h a t t h e r e is a s it u a ti o n , i t i s a v e r y s e r i o u s s i tu a ti o n f o r t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . T h e r e a s o n I a m r a is i n g t h is C h a ir i n t h e c ir c u ms t a n c e s i s t h a t t h a t u n d o u b te d l y w a s t h e p r e o c c u p a ti o n t h a t th e c o m p a n y h a d , s o t h is T N A m a t t e r th o u g h i t w a s i m p o r t a n t i t w a s c e r ta in ly s u p e r s e d e d b y t h i s c o n s i d e r a ti o n , s o I t h i n k i n f a ir n e s s i t is p o s s i b l e t h a t h a d w e b e e n s e i z e d o n ly w i t h t h i s m a t t e r T h e r e c o u ld p r o b a b ly h a v e b e e n g r e a te r c la r i ty i n te r ms o f h o w t o d e a l w i t h th e s i t u a ti o n , s u c h a s w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t i n d ic a t e d , b u t i t d o e s n ’ t t a k e a w a y fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t w e f e l t t h e w a y d id . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W e l l o f c o u r s e t h a t m i g h t r a is e a n o th e r is s u e o r m a y b e i t ’s n o t a n o t h e r is s u e b u t t h e q u e s t i o n t h a t a r is e s i s w h e t h e r th a t s i tu a ti o n th a t y o u h a v e j u s t t a l k e d a b o u t w a s n ’ t a f u r th e r r e a s o n fo r th e B o a r d t o s a y w h a t , R 4 3 m il li o n , w h e n w e a r e in t h is s i tu a ti o n w e n e e d to k n o w, n o t to s u s p e c t , th a t t h e r e m a y b e c o m m e r c i a l v a lu e . W e n e e d t o b e s a t is fi e d i f w e r a ti f y t h is th a t i t is i n th e i n te r e s t o f th is c o m p a n y to Page 52 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 h a v e – fo r u s t o r a t i fy th is c o n t r a c t . W h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h a t? MR TSOTSI: C h a ir I w o u l d s a y t h e c o r o ll a r y t o th a t w o u ld b e i f w e d i d n o t r a t i fy i t , b e c a u s e d o n ’ t f o r g e t w e h a d ju s t th e s e t w o o p t io n s , i f w e d i d n o t r a t i fy t h e n w e w o u ld b e e x a c e r b a t in g t h e v e r y s i t u a t io n I h a v e ju s t d e s c r i b e d b y c r e a ti n g a l o s s f o r w h ic h w e w o u l d h a v e n o o p p o r t u n i ty to c l a w b a c k a n y v a l u e b e c a u s e c a n c e lli n g th e c o n t r a c t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a w o r s e r e v il , s o I h e a r w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g b u t a t t h e s a m e ti m e t h a t h a s b e c o m e a l s o a c o n s id e r a ti o n , i n f a c t i t w a s a 10 c o n s i d e r a ti o n f o r s o m e o f th e B o a r d m e m b e r s i n th e i r s t a te m e n ts a t t h e m e e ti n g . CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k th e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n w h a t I a m t h i n k in g a n d w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d m a y b e th is , t h a t w h a t I a m p u t t in g to y o u is t h a t t h e fa c t th a t t h e c o m p a n y w a s i n t h a t p r e c a r io u s s i t u a t i o n fi n a n c i a l ly p l a c e d e v e n – m a y h a v e p l a c e d e v e n a b ig g e r o b l i g a t io n o n y o u , n o t n e c e s s a r il y to d e c i d e w h e th e r t o c a n c e l o r n o t t o c a n c e l b u t t o s a ti s f y y o u r s e lf o n e w a y o r a n o th e r w h e th e r t h e r e w a s c o m m e r c ia l v a l u e b e f o r e y o u r a ti f y i t , a s o p p o s e d t o r a t i fy i n g i n th e h o p e th a t m a n a g e m e n t h a d d o n e t h e ir j o b , y o u u n d e r s t a n d ? 20 MR TSOTSI: I u n d e r s ta n d v e r y w e ll C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u w a n t to s a y a n y t h in g b u t t h a t ’s w h a t i s g o i n g o n i n m y m i n d . MR TSOTSI: Ye s C h a i r I th in k o n r e fl e c t io n i t is a f a ir p o i n t to m a k e , h o w e v e r a s I s a y t h a t w a s n o t a c o n s i d e r a t io n a t t h e ti m e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s , n o , n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d , I ju s t w a n te d t o Page 53 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u m a k e a n i n p u t o n w h a t is in m y m i n d w h ic h m a y n o t r e m a in lik e th is la t e r b u t a t t h e m o m e n t t h a t is w h a t I w a s t h i n k in g . MR TSOTSI: It is e n r ic h i n g C h a ir, i t is e n r ic h i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a n k y o u , th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Yo u a r e d o n e , I t h in k n o w I c a n r e l e a s e y o u p r o p e r ly, t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r Ts o t s i , w e w i ll s e e y o u w h e n y o u c o m e b a c k . MR TSOTSI: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Thank you very much. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: C h a ir I n o t e t h a t w e a r e j u s t . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] Yo u a r e e x c u s e d , j a , j a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I note that we are just before the tea a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e d o n e e d to r e a r r a n g e t h i n g s f o r t h e n e x t w i tn e s s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C o u l d w e t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k n o w a n d th e n r e tu r n a t h a l f p a s t? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y, th a t w il l b e e n o u g h t i m e fo r y o u ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : CHAIRPERSON: 20 I t w i ll i n d e e d . O k a y, a lr i g h t . W e w il l a d j o u r n f o r t e a n o w a n d r e t u r n at half past eleven. We adjourn. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : REGISTRAR: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e r e a d y, g o o d m o r n i n g . Page 54 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e a r e r e a d y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : G o o d m o r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a i r th e n e x t w i t n e s s is Mr J o s e p h Jackson. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f I c o u ld a s k i f h e c o u l d b e s w o r n i n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b e f o r e t h a t I ju s t w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g . I d o n o t 10 w a n t a n y t h i n g I s a y to b e m is in t e r p r e t e d . E a r l i e r o n b e fo r e te a I m a d e s o m e r e m a r k s a b o u t M r N g c e b e t s h a ’s e x p e r i e n c e . Nobody must ever t h i n k th a t i t w a s a c o m p a r is o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o o ff e n c e t a k e n I a s s u r e y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B e tw e e n y o u r s e lv e s a n d h i m . I t w a s s i m p l y t h e f a c t t h a t a l t h o u g h m o s t o f th o s e w h o h a v e a p p e a r e d f o r s o m e w i t n e s s e s o r i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s h a v e b e e n v e r y g o o d . T h e r e h a s b e e n o n e o r tw o e x c e p ti o n s w h e r e o n e – w h e r e I fe l t t h a t I w i s h t h e r e w a s m o r e experience. So – so I am very happy with the performance of the present team. 20 O k a y a lr i g h t I ju s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e th a t n o b o d y m is u n d e r s t a n d s t h a t . O k a y p le a s e a d m i n is t e r t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n ? R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R J A C K S O N : J o s e p h Fr a n k J a c k s o n . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? MR JACKSON: No I do not. REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r Page 55 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 conscience? MR JACKSON: I do. REGISTRAR: D o y o u s w e a r t h a t th e e v id e n c e y o u g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d . MR JACKSON: So help me God. CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u Mr J a c k s o n . Yo u m a y th e n c o n ti n u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 10 C h a ir t o s t a r t c o u l d I a s k t h a t th e f il e c o n ta in i n g M r J a c k s o n ’s a ff id a v i t a n d a n n e x u r e s i s a d m i t te d a s E x h i b i t MM5? CHAIRPERSON: M r J o s e p h Fr a n k J a c k s o n ’s a ffi d a v i t a n d a n n e x u r e s t h e r e t o w il l b e a d m i t t e d a s E x h i b it M M 5 a n d t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n ta in i n g t h e m w il l b e m a r k e d a c c o r d i n g ly. Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r J a c k s o n t h e f il e i n fr o n t o f y o u is t h e f il e t h a t c o n t a i n s y o u r a ffi d a v it a n d a n n e x u r e s a n d s o m e a d d i ti o n a l d o c u m e n ts . M y i n te n ti o n i s th a t w e w i ll s ta y i n t h a t fi le f o r m o s t i f n o t a ll o f y o u r e v i d e n c e . To t h e e x t e n t th a t w e m o v e a w a y fr o m i t t h e fi le s a l o n g s i d e y o u a r e n u m b e r e d M M 1 to M M 7 a n d I w ill 20 r e fe r t h o s e t o y o u a t th e a p p r o p r i a te t i m e . MR JACKSON: Thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I s ta r t b y a s k i n g y o u ju s t t o tu r n t o p a g e 1 o f t h e – o f M M . I s t h a t t h e a ff id a v i t t h a t y o u s u b m i t t e d t o t h e c o m m i s s io n ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t. Page 56 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d c a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 1 5 . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Is t h a t y o u r s ig n a t u r e ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is m y s ig n a tu r e , c o r r e c t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d a r e t h e r e a r e c o r r e c ti o n s t h a t y o u w o u ld lik e to m a k e t o t h e a ff i d a v i t b e f o r e w e b e g i n ? MR JACKSON: No. I am comfortable thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . S o Mr J a c k s o n l e t u s p i c k i t u p a t p a g e 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h e r e y o u t a l k a b o u t t h e h is to r y o f y o u r r o l e 10 a t Tr a n s n e t . C a n y o u t e l l u s w h e n y o u j o i n e d Tr a n s n e t a n d w h a t p o s i ti o n s y o u h a v e h e ld s i n c e y o u h a v e b e e n t h e r e ? M R J A C K S O N : I w i ll d o t h a t . G o o d m o r n i n g M r C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g Mr J a c k s o n . M R J A C K S O N : M y e m p l o y a t Tr a n s n e t s t a r t e d o n t h e 1 6 A u g u s t 1 9 9 4 . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : A t S p o o r n e t i n K i m b e r l e y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR JACKSON: I w a s e m p l o y e d a t S p o o r n e t n o w k n o w n a s Tr a n s n e t fr e i g h t R a i l a s a c o m m u n i c a t io n s p r a c t i ti o n e r. Fr o m J a n u a r y 1 9 9 7 u n t il 20 S e p te m b e r 2 0 0 6 t w o y e a r s o f w h ic h t h e l a s t tw o y e a r s I s p e n t i n C a p e To w n w h e r e I w a s r e s p o n s i b le fo r t h e R e g i o n a l C o m m u n i c a t io n s D e p a r t m e n t o n b e h a lf o f Tr a n s n e t . B e t w e e n O c to b e r 2 0 0 6 a n d D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 I w a s a p p o in t e d a s t h e B r a n d a n d P u b li c i ty C o o r d in a t o r f o r Tr a n s n e t G r o u p C o r p o r a t e a n d P u b li c A ff a ir s a n d t h e y w e r e b a s e d i n J o h a n n e s b u r g . A t t h e e n d o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 I j o i n e d Tr a n s n e t G r o u p Page 57 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C a p it a l a s a n i n te r n a l C o m m u n i c a t io n S p e c ia li s t a p o s i ti o n I s t il l h o ld . A ll t h e s e p o s i t io n s I w a s a p p o i n t e d in t o b y a n o r m a l r e c r u i t m e n t p r o c e s s a lb e it t h e la s t o n e w h ic h w a s a la t e r a l tr a n s f e r. My role as B r a n d a n d P u b l ic it y C o o r d i n a to r w a s t h e fir s t o f i ts k i n d f o r Tr a n s n e t . W h a t Tr a n s n e t w i s h e d t o a c h i e v e w a s t o e s t a b li s h w h e th e r t h e r e w a s a n y b r a n d e q u i ty in t h e Tr a n s n e t b r a n d . That being the commercial v a l u e d e r iv e d fr o m t h e c o n s u m e r p e r c e p ti o n o f Tr a n s n e t ’s b r a n d . T h e v ie w t h e n w o u l d b e e it h e r t o c h a n g e t h e b r a n d in t o ta li t y, k e e p i t a s i t o r m a y b e th e n ju s t r e fr e s h c e r t a i n a s p e c t s o f i t . 10 S o f o l l o w in g f r o m a b r a n d d e v e l o p m e n t s t a tu t o r y d e v e lo p m e n t a n d a n i m p l e m e n ta t io n p la n it w a s t h e n d e c i d e d a n d th is w a s a ft e r e x t e n s iv e r e s e a r c h M r C h a ir m a n in 2 0 0 6 th a t in d e e d t h e y w o u l d r e b r a n d a s Tr a n s n e t . Th a t m e a n t c h a n g in g th e l o g o , t h e n a m e s o f o p e r a t in g d iv i s i o n s , o u r s i g n a g e , o u r liv e r y, i ts e n tir e c o r p o r a t e i d e n t i ty. A n d i t is t h e Tr a n s n e t w e n o w k n o w it t o b e . M y m a j o r f u n c ti o n t h e n a s B r a n d a n d P u b l ic it y C o o r d i n a t o r a t t h e t i m e w a s t o m a n a g e a n d f a c i li t a te a n d m o n i t o r th e r o l l o u t o f t h is b r a n d t h r o u g h o u t t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . A n d a ll i t s o p e r a t in g d iv is i o n s . A ls o to t h e p u b li c s p e c i fi c s ta k e h o l d e r s a s w e ll a s t o t h e m e d i a . I w o u ld h a v e to lo o k a t t h e a p p r o v a l o f c e r t a i n i m p l e m e n t a ti o n s tr a te g ie s 20 a s t h e y p e r t a in e d to t h e b r a n d a n d t h e p r o d u c ti o n o f t h e a n n u a l r e p o r t . A s B r a n d a n d P u b li c i ty C o o r d i n a to r I r e p o r t e d t o t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r Tr a n s n e t G r o u p C o r p o r a te a n d P u b li c A ff a ir s a n d t h a t w a s Mr M b o n is a Sigonyela. I w o u l d a ls o ju s t l ik e to m e n ti o n m a y b e i t m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g I c a n s a y th a t my a ffi d a v it a s i t r e l a te s t o th e i n f o r m a ti o n I h a v e p r o v i d e d is s p e c i fi c to m y r o l e a s B r a n d a n d P u b l ic it y C o o r d in a to r. Page 58 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 Thank you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . A n d s o w h a t t h a t m e a n s is t h a t w e a r e in t e r e s t e d f o r t o d a y ’s p u r p o s e s in t h e p o s i ti o n y o u h e l d r e a lly between 2006 and 2014. M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o w I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e to b e t h a t o r d i n a r i ly th a t p o s i ti o n w o u l d n o t e n t a i l r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r a d v e r ti s i n g . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : So how – how did it come to be that a d v e r t is in g fe ll w i t h i n y o u r r a n g e o f r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s ? MR JACKSON: M r C h a ir m a n w e h a d a – a n i n c u m b e n t a p p o in t e d d u r i n g m y p e r i o d a s a n a d v e r t is i n g m a n a g e r, M r A r c h ie M a s e b e a ls o t h e fir s t s u c h a p o s it i o n . H o w e v e r h e r e s i g n e d i n J u l y 2 0 11 . To w a r d s t h e e n d o f th a t y e a r M r S ig o n y e l a h a d r e q u e s t e d I a s s is t w it h s o m e o f t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s o f t h e a d v e r ti s i n g m a n a g e r u n ti l s u c h ti m e t h a t a p e r m a n e n t r e p l a c e m e n t c o u l d b e f o u n d a n d th a t is h o w I c a m e a b o u t a s s is ti n g . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d j u s t e x p l a i n to u s h o w t h o s e fu n c t io n s – 20 t h o s e a d v e r tis i n g f u n c ti o n s d i ff e r e d fr o m t h e – t h e o th e r f u n c ti o n s th a t y o u d id in t h e n o r m a l c o u r s e o f y o u r jo b ? MR JACKSON: Okay so th e m a in r e s p o n s i b i li ty o b v i o u s ly fo r a d v e r t is in g w o u ld b e to p r o m o t e th e Tr a n s n e t b r a n d . O b v io u s ly t o a ls o m a k e o u r c o n s u m e r s a s w e l l a s c u s t o m e r s a w a r e o f o u r s e r v i c e s . Fr o m a b r a n d p o i n t o f v i e w I w a s r e s p o n s i b le f o r i t s i d e n t it y. S o t h a t w o u l d Page 59 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 in c l u d e l o g o s , c o r r e c t t e m p l a t e s , t h e c o r r e c t f o n t b e in g u s e d , d e s i g n la y o u t e tc e te r a . appointed W h e r e a s a d v e r ti s i n g y o u w o r k c l o s e ly w i th a n a d v e r ti s i n g a d v e r t is e m e n ts . a d v is o r y agency who th e n looks at placement of Who looks at sponsorships and recommends on an capacity on where to place c e r ta in a d v e r t is e m e n ts or c a m p a i g n s b a s e d o n y o u r s tr a t e g y. S o j a – th a t – I d o n o t k n o w i f t h a t a n s w e r s t h e q u e s ti o n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J a . M R J A C K S O N : B u t it w a s – i t w a s a d i ffe r e n t a d d e d r e s p o n s i b il it y. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . A n d c a n y o u ju s t e x p l a i n to u s w h a t k in d s o f a d v e r tis e m e n ts a c o m p a n y l ik e Tr a n s n e t w o u ld b e p l a c in g ? M R J A C K S O N : W e ll p r i m a r i ly in t h e a b s e n c e o f a n y m a j o r c a m p a i g n o r some s tr a t e g ic o b j e c t iv e it is n o r m a ll y your tender recruitment a d v e r t is e m e n ts m o s t ly b e c a u s e th a t i s a l w a y s a s p a r t o f o u r b u s i n e s s M r C h a ir m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u – y o u r e f e r r e d t o w o r k in g t o g e t h e r with agencies. M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t w a s t h e n a m e o f th e a g e n c y t h a t w a s e m p l o y e d d u r in g y o u r t e n u r e ? M R J A C K S O N : I d o b e li e v e t h a t w a s in 2 0 11 Tr a n s n e t h a d v i a a n o p e n t e n d e r p r o c e s s s e e k e d t h e s e r v i c e s o f a n a d v e r t is i n g a g e n c y a n d t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d a n d t h e y w e r e c a l le d T h e A g e n c y. Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Thank you. Page 60 of 187 T h e c o m m i s s io n h a s h e a r d 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 s o m e e v i d e n c e o n t h e r o le t h a t a g e n c i e s p l a y i n p r o v i d i n g s e r v i c e s i n t h e c o n t e x t o f a d v e r t is i n g a n d s p o n s o r s h i p . C a n y o u j u s t s o r t o f b r i e fl y e x p l a i n to u s w h a t r o l e T h e A g e n c y p l a y e d f o r Tr a n s n e t? M R J A C K S O N : O k a y s o T h e A g e n c y w o u ld b e o u r a d v is o r. A n e x p e r t in th e i r s p e c if ic e x p e r t is e w h ic h w a s th e p l a c e m e n t o f a d v e r tis e m e n ts w h e r e a n d w h y d e p e n d in g y o u r – w h a t y o u r d e s i r e d o u tc o m e w o u ld b e a s f a r a s th e c a m p a ig n i s c o n c e r n e d . S o fo r i n s t a n c e t h e y w o u ld b e a b l e t o a d v is e o n d e m o g r a p h i c r e a c h , n u m b e r o f c ir c u l a t i o n . T h e y a l s o h a d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o n e g o t ia t e o n y o u r b e h a lf . S o y o u k n e w t h a t y o u 10 w o u ld m o s t lik e ly g e t t h e b e s t p r i c e b a s e d o n t h e ir r e l a ti o n s h i p s b u t a ls o b u y i n g p o w e r w i t h i n t h a t e n v ir o n m e n t . J a I th i n k th a t is w h a t w e w o u ld d o . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . N o w if y o u c a n t u r n to p a g e 5 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t a t – a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 y o u r e fe r t o a n a d v e r t is i n g g u i d e l in e . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a t w a s p r e p a r e d b y y o u r p r e d e c e s s o r M r Masebe. M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 But you say that it was never approved or m a d e o ff ic i a l. MR JACKSON: Correct. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h y w a s t h a t ? MR JACKSON: I t w a s p r e p a r e d a n d a d r a f t h a d b e e n p r o v id e d a s I h a v e s ta t e d h o w e v e r t h e r e is a c e r t a i n p r o c e s s t h a t h a d t o – th a t n e e d e d to h a v e fo ll o w e d – b e e n f o l l o w e d i t – f o r e x a m p l e i t n e e d e d a – Page 61 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a n e v e n t u a l s ig n o ff b y E X C O t o m a k e i t o ffi c i a l . r e a c h e d t h a t s ta g e . However it never S o i t w a s n e v e r f o r m a lis e d in t h e s e n s e th a t it b e c a m e c o m p a n y p o l ic y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y. And – and so what – what guided Tr a n s n e t’s a d v e r ti s i n g s tr a t e g y ? M R J A C K S O N : H o n e s t ly th e r e w a s n o p o li c y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e g o to t h e p o li c y b r i e f ly ? Th e d r a f t p o li c y. M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I w il l r e f e r to i t a s . B e c a u s e e v e n t h o u g h i t w a s n e v e r m a d e o ff ic ia l i t is – I t h i n k i t is u s e f u l to l o o k a t w h a t i ts a u t h o r e n v is a g e d . MR JACKSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f y o u t u r n to p a g e 2 1 o f y o u r b u n d le t h a t is at the JJ1 tab. M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u lo o k u n d e r p u r p o s e . I t s a y s : “ T h e p u r p o s e o f t h e p o l ic y is to u ti lis e Tr a n s n e t a d v e r t is in g r e s o u r c e s a n d r e a c h t h e t a r g e t m a r k e t i n 20 t h e m o s t c o s t e ffe c t iv e m a n n e r. To h a v e a fr a m e w o r k f o r s e tt i n g a n d a c h ie v i n g a d v e r t is i n g o b je c t iv e s . To e n a b l e a d v e r t is i n g m e a s u r e m e n t s o t h e o r g a n is a ti o n knows what works and what does not.” M r J a c k s o n e v e n t h o u g h t h is w a s n e v e r a d o p t e d a s a p o li c y w o u l d y o u s a y th a t t h o s e w e r e k i n d o f a d v e r tis i n g p r i n c i p l e s b y w h ic h Tr a n s n e t Page 62 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 s o u g h t to a d h e r e ? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . G e n e r a l ly I w o u l d a g r e e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n r e t u r n to y o u r a ffi d a v i t . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A t p a g e 6 . A n d p a r t ic u l a r ly fr o m p a g e 2 3 – s o r r y p a r a g r a p h 2 3 w h e r e y o u d e s c r ib e th e p r e s s u r e t h a t y o u r s u p e r io r M r S i g o n y e la e x e r te d o n y o u to u s e T N A fo r n e w s p a p e r a d v e r t is in g . C a n y o u f ir s t d e s c r ib e w h a t r o l e i t w a s t h a t y o u s p e c i f ic a l ly p l a y e d in r e l a ti o n t o t h e p l a c e m e n t o f a n a d v e r tis e m e n t in t h e n e w s p a p e r ? 10 M R J A C K S O N : O k a y. I w o u l d s a y a t th e s t a te t h a t Mr S i g o n y e l a h a d r e q u e s t e d I a s s is t w i t h t h e a d v e r t is i n g p o r t fo li o h e a ls o r e q u e s t e d I b e c o m e m o r e in v o lv e d in t h e p l a c e m e n t o f r e c r u i t m e n t a n d t e n d e r a d v e r t s w h ic h m e a n t t h a t fr o m a b r a n d i n g p o in t o f v i e w I t o o k s o l e r e s p o n s i b i li ty fo r th e p la c e m e n t o f t h e a d s a n d h o w t h e y l o o k e d M r C h a ir m a n . S o t h e y n e e d e d t o b e i n th e c o r r e c t f o r m a t , c o r r e c t f o n t a n d c o n s i s te n t t h r o u g h o u t t h e o r g a n is a ti o n w h i c h I h a d t o s o u g h t o f s i g n o ff on. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t in s tr u c ti o n d i d M r S ig o n y e l a g iv e y o u i n r e s p e c t o f t h e p la c e m e n t o f a d v e r ti s e m e n t s ? 20 MR JACKSON: A t s o m e s t a g e h e th e n in s t r u c t e d m e t o a d v i s e m y c o l l e a g u e s t h a t t h e y m u s t a d v e r t is e th e s e r e c r u i t m e n t a n d t e n d e r adverts in the TNA. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h y d id h e s a y t h a t ? MR JACKSON: There was no reason except you must do this. CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that? Page 63 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR JACKSON: H e m a d e i t c l e a r t h a t it – I m u s t j u s t – i t is a n in s t r u c t i o n it m u s t b e d o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : H e g a v e n o r e a s o n a s t o w h y a d v e r t is e m e n t s s h o u l d b e p l a c e d s p e c if ic a l ly i n T N A ? M R J A C K S O N : N o h e d i d n o t Mr C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t t o m e a n a l l a d v e r ti s e m e n ts o r … M R J A C K S O N : S p e c i fic a lly … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th a t a t le a s t s o m e s h o u l d g o t h e r e ? 10 MR JACKSON: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l? M R J A C K S O N : S o i t i s s p e c i fi c a lly r e c r u i t m e n t a n d t e n d e r w h ic h I h a d an oversight on. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J A C K S O N : Fr o m a b r a n d in g p o in t o f v ie w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J A C K S O N : T h o s e a ll . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J A C K S O N : H a d t o b e a d v e r t is e d i n t h e n e w s p a p e r. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : In N e w A g e . MR JACKSON: In New Age. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d h a d h e to l d y o u b e f o r e o r s i n c e to – t o u s e p a r ti c u l a r p u b l ic a ti o n s f o r a d v e r tis e m e n ts ? MR JACKSON: No. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O n p a g e 6 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t a t p a r a g r a p h 2 4 Page 64 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 y o u r e f e r to a n e m a il fr o m R a j e s h r e e M o o d l e y o f Tr a n s n e t Fr e i g h t R a i l is t h a t o n e o f th e o p e r a ti n g d iv i s i o n s o f Tr a n s n e t ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n j a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n t o t h a t e m a il i t i s J J 2 on page 36? CHAIRPERSON: What page again? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : P a g e 3 6 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o th is i s a n e m a il fr o m R a je s h r e e M o o d le y 10 it i s t o Mr S i g o n y e la a n d i t r e fe r s t o a t e l e p h o n i c c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t t h e y h a d h a d a n d y o u w il l s e e th a t a t i te m 2 it s a y s : “ I n a d d i t io n t o t h e c u r r e n t p u b li c a t io n s c u r r e n tl y b e i n g u ti li s e d w e s h o u ld a ls o u s e t h e N e w A g e a n d Sowetan” T h a t is Ms M o o d l e y r e c o r d i n g a t e l e p h o n ic c o n v e r s a t i o n s h e h a s h a d w i t h M r S i g o n y e la . D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h t h e k in d o f in s tr u c ti o n th a t y o u w e r e g iv e n ? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t Mr C h a i r ma n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 f o r w a r d to p a g e 3 8 . If I c a n a s k y o u t h e n t o t u r n j u s t tw o p a g e A n d t h i s is a n e m a i l fr o m S a m a n t h a B a a d ji e s a t Tr a n s n e t Pr o p e r t y D u r b a n . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Is th is a ls o a n o p e r a ti n g d iv i s i o n o f Tr a n s n e t? M R J A C K S O N : I t i s a s p e c i a lis t d i v is io n . Page 65 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A s p e c ia li s t d i v i s io n . M R J A C K S O N : W i th i n Tr a n s n e t c o r r e c t. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d s h e s a y s : “ H i J o s e p h I h a v e c h a n g e d th e fo n t to … ” C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y y o u – y o u a r e – I m u s t c a t c h u p w it h y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. W e a r e o n p a g e 3 8 . CHAIRPERSON: B e f o r e w e g o t th e r e w h a t p o s i ti o n d id R a j e s h r e e M o o d l e y h o ld a t Tr a n s n e t F r e i g h t R a il a t t h e t i m e ? M R J A C K S O N : I a l m o s t a m o f t h e o p i n i o n s h e w a s fr o m p r o c u r e m e n t . 10 I c o u l d b e m is ta k e n b u t … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR JACKSON: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h a t is y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n . M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is m y r e c o l le c ti o n y e s M r C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y a lr i g h t . A n d t h e n w h a t p a g e d i d y o u s a y w e m u s t g o to ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J u s t t w o p a g e s f o r w a r d C h a ir o n p a g e 3 8 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 A t t h e b o t t o m i s a n e m a il fr o m S a m a n t h a B a a d ji e s t o Mr J a c k s o n a n d i t s a y s : “ I h a v e c h a n g e d t h e f o n t t o Ta h o m a a s r e q u e s te d . I p l a n t o a d v e r t is e i n S u n d a y Tr i b u n e o r Zu l u l a n d O b s e r v e r. I w il l h o w e v e r c o n fir m o n c e I r e c e i v e t h e q u o t e s a s th e r e i s a li m i te d b u d g e t . ” Mr Jackson can you read your response? M R J A C K S O N : O k a y. M r C h a i r m a n m y r e s p o n s e s a y s : Page 66 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 “ H i S a m a n t h a , t h a n k s f o r t h is i t l o o k s g o o d . W e c a n a ls o r e c o m m e n d y o u m a k e u s e o f t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r. T h a n k s . R e g a r d s . J o s e p h . ” CHAIRPERSON: W a s t h a t – w a s th a t w h e n y o u w e r e s t a r ti n g t o g i v e e ffe c t t o th e i n s tr u c t io n ? M R J A C K S O N : C o r r e c t Mr C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m M r S i g o n y e l a ? MR JACKSON: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A p a r t fr o m M r S ig o n y e l a ’s i n s tr u c ti o n d i d y o u h a v e a n y p a r ti c u la r r e a s o n t o s u g g e s t t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r ? MR JACKSON: None. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D i d y o u k n o w a n y th in g a b o u t it s c ir c u l a ti o n w i t h i n th a t a r e a ? MR JACKSON: No. M r C h a ir m a n it w a s a n e w n e w ly f o u n d e d n e w s p a p e r s o i n d e e d i t w o u ld n o t h a v e a n y c ir c u la t io n fi g u r e s . We w o u ld n o t b e p r iv y to a n y d e m o g r a p h ic r e a c h t h e y w o u l d h a v e o r r e a d e r s h ip n u m b e r s . So no. Th e r e w o u ld – I w o u l d n o t b e a b le to recommend it. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t s a i d i t is S i g o n y e la b u t I s u s p e c t i t is S i g o n y e la . MR JACKSON: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Do you know? MR JACKSON: I – I am … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s u r e i t is S ig o n y e l a b e c a u s e I s e e h i s f ir s t n a m e is M b o n is o s o t h a t p r o b a b l y … Page 67 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR JACKSON: Mboniso. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t p r o b a b ly i s M x h o s a o r … M R J A C K S O N : Ye s it is . CHAIRPERSON: Or Zulu so – but I – in which case it would be S i g o n y e l a a s o p p o s e d t o Si g o n y e l a . J a o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. M r J a c k s o n y o u – y o u s a y – y o u a t t a c h a l o t o f i m p o r ta n c e t o th e w o r d s r e c o m m e n d in t h a t e m a i l. C a n y o u e x p la i n w h y y o u u s e d th a t w o r d ? MR JACKSON: 10 M r C h a ir m a n I w a s o f th e o p in io n th a t o p e r a ti n g d iv is io n s w e r e n o t c o m p e ll e d t o – t o a d v e r ti s e i n a n y n e w s p a p e r b a s e d o n o u r i n s tr u c t i o n . T h e r e – a s m u c h a s t h e y f o ll o w e d t h e s a m e c o m m u n ic a ti o n s tr a t e g y a s w e h a d t h e y w e r e a u t o n o m o u s in w h o t h e y c u s t o m e r w a s a n d a l s o a s fa r a s t h e ir b u d g e t . S o I w a s o f t h e o p i n io n t h a t i f th e y d i d n o t h a v e b u d g e t o r th e r e w e r e c e r t a i n c i r c u ms t a n c e s t h a t i n d ic a te d t h a t th e y – th e y c o u l d n o t a ff o r d t h is o t h e r n e w s p a p e r t h a t th e y w e r e a t t h e d i s c r e ti o n t o u s e t h e n e w s p a p e r s th e y h a d d e c i d e d u p o n . S o i n s t e a d o f i n s tr u c t in g y o u m u s t I d e c i d e d t o u s e t h e word recommend. C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e e x t e n t t h a t y o u u s e d t h e w o r d r e c o m m e n d . 20 M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e r e a s o n s th a t y o u h a v e g i v e n . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: W o u l d t h a t h a v e b e e n i n l in e w i t h Mr S i g o n y e la ’s in s t r u c t i o n t o y o u o r w a s i t c o n tr a r y t o i t ? M R J A C K S O N : I t w a s c o n tr a r y M r C h a ir m a n . Page 68 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J A C K S O N : I t w a s a n i n s tr u c ti o n th a t t h e y m u s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J A C K S O N : I t w a s n o t a – a n o p t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR JACKSON: So… C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u c h o s e c o n s c i o u s ly. M R J A C K S O N : S o I c o n s c io u s ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y r e c o m m e n d . 10 MR JACKSON: A n d i n s o m e o f th e m I w o u ld in c l u d e i f y o u r b u d g e t p e r m it s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j a o k a y. M R J A C K S O N : S o i t is y o u r d is c r e t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. MR JACKSON: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n f a c t M r J a c k s o n y o u r e v id e n c e i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t is t h a t M r S ig o n y e l a d id n o t r e a c t w e l l to t h e u s e o f t h e w o r d recommend? 20 MR JACKSON: N o h e d i d n o t M r C h a ir m a n . I w a s v e r b a lly r e p r i m a n d e d f o r n o t h a v i n g fo ll o w e d a n i n s tr u c ti o n . I w a s t o l d to b e in c o m p e t e n t a n d i f I w e r e t o c o n t i n u e d o i n g th is h e w o u l d fi n d s o m e o n e t h a t w o u ld f o l lo w h is in s t r u c ti o n s . CHAIRPERSON: N o w t h e w a y y o u w o r k e d i n r e g a r d t o t h i s p o r t f o l io in v o lv i n g a d v e r t is in g d i d y o u y o u r s e l f s o m e ti m e s p la c e a d v e r ti s e m e n ts Page 69 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 in n e w s p a p e r s o r w a s th e p o s i ti o n t h a t o t h e r p e o p l e m a d e th o s e d e c is i o n s o r o t h e r p e o p l e p la c e d a d v e r t i s e m e n ts i n n e w s p a p e r s b u t t h e y c o u l d n o t d o th a t w i th o u t h e a r i n g fr o m y o u f ir s t a n d th a t is w h e r e y o u w o u l d c o m e i n t o s a y, p la c e i t in th a t n e w s p a p e r o r i n t h a t n e w s p a p e r o r n o t in t h a t n e w s p a p e r. W h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n ? M R J A C K S O N : I t h in k t h is is h o w t h e p o s i ti o n p l a y e d o u t M r C h a ir m a n . T h e r e w a s n o s u c h o ff ic ia l p r o c e s s i n p l a c e t o d o t h a t. J a . T h e r e a l – h o w it c a m e a b o u t w a s m y in v o lv e m e n t w h e n I w a s a s k e d t o b e m o r e in v o lv e d in t h e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : In v o lv e d . M R J A C K S O N : Fr o m a b r a n d p o in t o f v i e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J A C K S O N : A n d h a v e a c o n s is t e n c y t h r o u g h o u t t h e o r g a n is a t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : A n d th r o u g h m e a n s I r e c e i v e d t h e i n s tr u c ti o n n o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR JACKSON: Now why do you that? Yo u m u s t i n s tr u c t t h e m t o a d v e r t is e i n th e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r. CHAIRPERSON: So – so… 20 M R J A C K S O N : S o t h a t is n o t w h a t w o u l d n o r m a l ly … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r r o l e e n d e d w i th – w a s s u p p o s e d t o e n d w i t h recommending? MR JACKSON: Correct. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u w e r e in s tr u c te d t o i n s tr u c t ? M R J A C K S O N : I n s tr u c t y e s . Page 70 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: And at least in the – on the instances that has been r e fe r r e d t o u p t o n o w y o u r e c o m m e n d e d . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u j u s t s a id t h a t M r S i g o n y e la r e p r i m a n d e d y o u f o r t h a t a n d t h r e a t e n e d t h a t i f y o u w e r e n o t fo ll o w i n g h i s i n s tr u c t io n h e w o u ld fi n d s o m e b o d y w h o w o u ld f o l l o w h i s in s t r u c t i o n . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r J a c k s o n i f w e c a n th e n t u r n to p a r a g r a p h 10 4 1 a n d f o l lo w in g i n y o u r a ff id a v i t t h a t is o n p a g e 7 . H e r e y o u t a l k a b o u t t h e b i g i n t e r v i e w. M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u te ll u s w h a t th e b i g i n te r v i e w w a s ? MR JACKSON: T h e b i g i n t e r v i e w w a s a w e e k l y in s e r t io n i n t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r w h ic h p r o f il e d a m e d i a p e r s o n a li ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I a m i n t e r r u p t in g b o t h o f y o u . Yo u h a v e – y o u h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h i s b u t m a y b e th e r e is v a lu e i n j u s t r e a d in g t h a t p a r a g r a p h 2 7 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t. M R J A C K S O N : 2 7 Mr C h a ir m a n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR JACKSON: “ B e t w e e n l a te 2 0 1 3 a n d m id 2 0 1 4 M r Si g o n y e l a r e q u e s t e d v e r b a lly t h a t w h e n a p p r o a c h e d f o r s u c h a d v is e I s h o u l d te ll Tr a n s n e t ’s o p e r a t i n g d iv is io n s t h a t t h e r e c r u it m e n t a n d t e n d e r a d v e r tis e m e n ts m u s t Page 71 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 b e p l a c e d i n th e T N A n e w s p a p e r. ” C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y I j u s t t h o u g h t t h a t t h a t i s i m p o r t a n t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I a m g r a t e f u l . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr Jackson we were at paragraph 31 and f o ll o w i n g a n d y o u w e r e a b o u t to e x p la i n to t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h a t t h e b i g in t e r v ie w w a s . 10 M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . M r C h a ir m a n t h e b i g in t e r v ie w w a s a w e e k i n s e r t in t o t h e N e w A g e n e w s p a p e r w h ic h a i m e d a t p r o fi li n g a m e d i a p e r s o n a l i ty a n d t h e n p r o f il in g a n d s h o w in g t h e m i n t h e i r b o t h p u b lic a n d p r i v a t e l i fe . T h a t w a s w h a t t h a t h a d a i m e d to a c h i e v e o r d o . CHAIRPERSON: So they would – they would have a space reserved for that? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e th e r e w il l b e a p ic tu r e o f t h a t p e r s o n a n d h is or her story? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D i d t h e p e o p le in t e r v ie w e d h a v e a n y th in g t o d o w i t h Tr a n s n e t ? MR JACKSON: No. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 3 3 t h is is th e a p p r o a c h t h a t is m a d e t o Tr a n s n e t w i th a p r o p o s a l f o r t h e b i g i n t e r v ie w. Page 72 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f w e g o t o J J 4 a t p a g e 4 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u e a r l ie r o n s a y 3 3 ? O r d id I ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir I a m i n p a r a g r a p h 3 3 . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r J a c k s o n r e fe r s t o i t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. S o I m u s t g o t o 4 0 ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : But I am going to ask you to turn to page 40. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h ic h is w h e r e th e e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i s c o n ta in e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f w e s ta r t M r J a c k s o n a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 4 0 w h e r e Mr J a c q u e s R o u x . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : E m a i ls M s N a t a s h a M in n i e . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d s a y s : 20 “ H i N a ta s h a ” And if you go over the page. “ A s d is c u s s e d te l e p h o n ic a l ly h e r e w i t h p le a s e fi n d o u r p r o p o s a l f o r Tr a n s n e t t o s p o n s o r t h e b ig in t e r v ie w. ” W h o is J a c q u e s R o u x ? MR JACKSON: J a c q u e s R o u x i n t r o d u c e d h i m s e l f a s a r e p r e s e n t a ti v e Page 73 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 o r I w o u ld i m a g i n e a s a l e s m a r k e te r o n b e h a lf o f t h e N e w A g e m a k i n g t h is p r o p o s a l. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d M s M i n n i e ? M R J A C K S O N : M s M i n n ie w a s t h e E x e c u ti v e a t t h e A g e n c y r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e Tr a n s n e t a c c o u n t Mr C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is N a t a s h a M i n n i e ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d M r J a c k s o n i f w e t u r n t o p a g e 4 2 th a t 10 t h a t i s t h e p r o p o s a l th a t i s a t t a c h e d to M r R o u x ’s e m a il ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is t h e p r o p o s a l Mr C h a ir m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h is ? W h a t - w h a t is b e i n g p r o p o s e d h e r e ? M R J A C K S O N : O k a y. I t - i t s a y s : “ P l e a s e c a n y o u c l a r if y ? ” B e c a u s e th is is o b v i o u s l y w h a t h e h a d p r o p o s e d a s p a r t o f w h a t h e shared with Ms … (intervenes). A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o r r y Mr J a c k s o n . I am - I am asking you about page 42. 20 M R J A C K S O N : O h . S o r r y. S o r r y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h e r e - w h e r e t h e a c tu a l p r o p o s a l is c o n ta in e d . MR JACKSON: Oh. There we go. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d … M R J A C K S O N : Yo u w il l s e e t h a t i t in c l u d e s a s p a r t o f t h e p r o p o s a l e a r Page 74 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 p i e c e - s p a c e s w h i c h is b a s ic a lly o n t h e s id e o f t h e p a g e . Th a t w o u l d b e a l o g o b e i n g p l a c e d . S t r i p a d d w h ic h is m o r e … CHAIRPERSON: W e l l - I a m s o r r y. S o t h a t is a p r o p o s a l s i g n e d b y J a c q u e s R o u x t h a t w e ju s t ta lk e d a b o u t a n d i t is a d d r e s s e d t o - w h a t? T h e A g e n c y. M R J A C K S O N : C o r r e c t Mr C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t - w h a t w a s t h e A g e n c y a g a in ? I k n o w w e … A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e A g e n c y C h a ir … M R J A C K S O N : T h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o r r y. MR JACKSON: S o r r y. M r C h a ir m a n th e y w e r e a c t u a l ly c a l l e d t h e A g e n c y. J a . T h a t w a s - t h e y o p e r a t e d u n d e r th e n a m e t h e A g e n c y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n e w T h e N e w A g e ? MR JACKSON: No, no, no. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is th a t ? M R J A C K S O N : T h e a g e n c y t h a t w a s a p p o i n te d b y Tr a n s n e t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. T h a t is M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: That was their name? 20 M R J A C K S O N : T h a t w a s t h e ir n a m e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. O k a y. A lr i g h t . S o t h is w a s a d d r e s s e d to t h e Agency? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s a s e p a r a t e e n ti ty fr o m Tr a n s n e t ? MR JACKSON: Correct. Page 75 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t r e l a t e d t o Tr a n s n e t … M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Or not related? MR JACKSON: No. They were. We had an open tender process. CHAIRPERSON: A subsidiary or something? MR JACKSON: No. W e h a d a n o p e n t e n d e r p r o c e s s s e e k i n g th e e x p e r t is e o f a n a d v e r ti s i n g a g e n c y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. N o … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . M R J A C K S O N : A n d th e a c c o u n t w a s a w a r d e d … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J A C K S O N : To t h e m . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I t h in k I mi s s e d s o m e t h i n g e a r l ie r o n . Ja. O k a y. A lr ig h t . O k a y. S o - y e s t h e n y o u c a n c o n ti n u e … MR JACKSON: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: On the proposal. MR JACKSON: O k a y. S o M r C h a i r m a n th e y p r o p o s e d e a r s p a c e s w h ic h i s e it h e r s id e o f t h e - o f th e n e w s p a p e r … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MR JACKSON: 20 W h e r e a l o g o w o u ld - y o u h a d th e o p p o r tu n it y t o p u t your logo. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R J A C K S O N : A s tr i p a d d w h i c h w a s a t t h e b o t t o m o f a n e w s p a p e r. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MR JACKSON: A g a in y o u c o u l d d e s i g n s o m e t h i n g s p e c i fi c w i th t h e Tr a n s n e t l o g o o r a m e s s a g e . W h a t e v e r y o u - y o u d e e m e d - y o u w o u ld Page 76 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 want … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R J A C K S O N : A n d t h e n o b v io u s ly n a m i n g r i g h t s . S o t h e b i g i n t e r v i e w w o u ld c a ll t h e - b e c a ll e d t h e Tr a n s n e t b i g i n t e r v ie w a n d y o u w o u l d have those rights as part of your - your sponsorship. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d y o u w i ll s e e t h e r e t h a t t h e r e i s a p r i c e in t h e t a b l e - in t h e m a i n ta b le o f R 3 2 7 5 7 6 ,0 0 . O v e r w h a t p e r i o d w o u l d that amount be pay - payable? MR JACKSON: 10 I t h i n k a n d t h i s is w h e r e th e c o n f u s i o n c a m e . T h is s e e m e d t o b e t h e t o ta l f o r t h e e n tir e c a m p a i g n . R i g h t . I t is - it is fo r the month. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : R ig h t . M R J A C K S O N : I t i s o n l y f o r t h e m o n th . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d i f y o u l o o k t o t h e t o p l e ft a t t h a t s m a ll e r t a b l e . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h e r e i t s a y s t o ta l v a l u e . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W o u l d th a t b e t h e - t h e to t a l o v e r th e e n ti r e 20 s ix m o n th p e r i o d ? M R J A C K S O N : S ix m o n t h s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t . T h e R 1 9 6 5 4 5 6 , 0 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . CHAIRPERSON: What is - what - how much was the space that would b e g i v e n t o Tr a n s n e t f o r th is p u r p o s e ? Page 77 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R J A C K S O N : I t w a s a p a g e Mr C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: The whole page? MR JACKSON: The whole page. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - I a m s o r r y. S o y o u w o u l d - if y o u a c c e p te d t h e p r o p o s a l a s Tr a n s n e t . Yo u w o u ld d e c i d e w h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o w r i te in t h a t s p a c e a n d w h a t p i c tu r e - w h o s e p i c t u r e y o u w a n t to p u t i n ? MR JACKSON: N o M r C h a ir m a n . Th a t w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e i n i t ia l a g r e e m e n t . I t w a s a t th e i r d is c r e ti o n . W h a t … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s a t … 10 M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s to b e a t th e i r d is c r e ti o n ? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t w h a t w a s t h e ir d is c r e ti o n ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is … C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h a t to p u t in t h e ir ? M R J A C K S O N : A c c o r d i n g t o th e p r o p o s a l a s th e y - t h e y s e t i t a b o u t . I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a - a m e d i a p e r s o n a li ty w h o w o u l d h a v e b e e n o f in t e r e s t t o th e p u b lic . S o b a s e d o n t h a t i t c o u l d b e a n y b o d y. C H A I R P E R S O N : To d o w h a t w i t h Tr a n s n e t ? 20 M R J A C K S O N : I t - i t d i d n o t s e r v e i ts p u r p o s e f o r Tr a n s n e t . CHAIRPERSON: S o I m e a n Tr a n s n e t c o u ld p a y a n d t h e y g o a n d t a k e w h o e v e r th e y li k e d ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n … CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h a t is - w h a t i s - w h a t w a s t h e n e e d f o r Page 78 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 Tr a n s n e t o n - o n t h a t b a s is ? M R J A C K S O N : T h e - th e i t e m s l is te d h e r e a s p a r t o f … CHAIRPERSON: Just to put your logo? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, i f y o u l o o k i n t h e p r o p o s a l y o u w il l a c t u a ll y s e e a li s t o f s o m e o f th e p e o p l e t h a t th e y h a v e i n c lu d e d i n t h is in t e r v ie w i n t h e p a s t . P i e t B y l e v e ld , A r c h b is h o p D e s m o n d Tu t u , S A B C C E O P h il M o le f e e t c e t e r a . 10 CHAIRPERSON: J a , b u t r e a ll y it i s n o th in g f o r Tr a n s n e t o r a m I m is s i n g s o m e t h in g ? M R J A C K S O N : N o Mr C h a ir m a n . Yo u a r e n o t m is s i n g … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR JACKSON: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u j u s t - t h e p r o p o s a l w a n t s - w a n t s y o u a s Tr a n s n e t to just … M R J A C K S O N : P u t m o n e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : S p o n s o r t h e ir b u s i n e s s ? MR JACKSON: 20 A g a i n i f - if y o u w e r e t o a s k y o u s h o u ld b e a b l e t o in fl u e n c e y o u r c u s t o m e r o r s t a k e h o ld e r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : D ir e c tly t h r o u g h t h e s e s o r t o f in t e r v e n ti o n s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR JACKSON: But we were not at liberty … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 79 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R J A C K S O N : O r w e d i d n o t h a v e th a t a s p a r t o f t h i s a g r e e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. C o n t in u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : ( C o u g h in g ) e x c u s e m e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u g o t i t fr o m m e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n th e n t u r n to p a g e 4 0 M r J a c k s o n . T h a t is J J 4 … M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : And in the middle of the page H a n li e Va n E c k s e n d s a n e m a i l t o J a c q u e s R o u x a n d s h e s a y s : “ H i th e r e J a c q u e s , p le a s e c a n y o u s e n d m e a v is u a l 10 e x a m p l e o f th e s p o n s o r s h ip . Pl e a s e c a n y o u a ls o c la r i fy … ” A n d t h e n t h e f ir s t b u ll e t p o in t . “…that the cost for th e s p o n s o r s h ip is R 3 2 7 5 7 6 ,0 0 . ” Yo u r e v i d e n c e a m o m e n t a g o w a s th a t w a s i n f a c t t h e m o n t h l y price? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t Mr C h a ir m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 It appears th a t M s Va n E c k is fr o m s o m e t h i n g c a ll e d P la n e t M e d ia S A . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t is t h a t ? M R J A C K S O N : I t is t h e a d v i s o r y s e r v ic e s p e c i f ic a l ly th a t a n e x p e r t in m e d i a p la c e m e n t a n d w o u ld b e a b l e t o e s t a b li s h v a l u e o r r e t u r n a n in v e s t m e n t o n a d v e r t is e m e n t s t h a t w e r e p l a c e d in n e w s p a p e r s o r a n y Page 80 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 media. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h e n f u r th e r u p t h e p a g e M a r th a M o r e m i e m a i ls - f o r w a r d s t h e e m a il to y o u a n d s a y s : “ W e a r e s ti ll w a i ti n g f o r th e p u b lic a ti o n t o a n s w e r the q u e s ti o n s before we can fi n a lis e the evaluation.” W h o is M s M o r e m i? M R J A C K S O N : Ms M o r e m i w a s t h e A c c o u n t E x e c u t iv e a s s i g n e d t o t h e Tr a n s n e t a c c o u n t b y t h e A g e n c y M r C h a i r m a n . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d w h a t e v a l u a t i o n i s s h e r e f e r r in g t o w h e n s h e s a y s b e f o r e w e c a n f in a l is e th e e v a l u a ti o n ? MR JACKSON: S h e r e fe r s t o th e e m a il b e l o w fr o m H a n li e to J a c q u e s R o u x w a n ti n g t o e s t a b l is h t h e - th e f a c ts a s t h e y a p p e a r in h is p r o p o s a l i n v ie w o f w a n ti n g t o g i v e t h e - t h e a d v ic e b a c k a s to w h e t h e r t h is w o u ld b e o f a n y v a l u e t o Tr a n s n e t. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . If I c a n t h e n a s k y o u t o t u r n t o J J 5 w h ic h i s a t p a g e 4 4 a n d t h i s is f r o m N a t a s h a M in n ie t o - t o H a n li e Va n E c k a n d s h e s a y s : “ H i H a n l ie , n o t s u r e i f I s e n t t h i s to y o u , b u t 20 s o m e h o w I th i n k I d id . C l ie n t h a s p h o n e d a n d is p u t t in g m e u n d e r p r e s s u r e fo r a n e v a lu a ti o n o f t h i s proposal.” W h o w o u l d h a v e b e e n a p p ly i n g t h a t p r e s s u r e ? MR JACKSON: A s t h e c l ie n t t h a t w o u l d b e Tr a n s n e t . m y - my b o s s - M r S ig o n y e l a . Page 81 of 187 That would be 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d w a s t h e r e a n y p a r t ic u l a r u r g e n c y a s s o c i a t e d w i th t h i s p r o p o s a l ? MR JACKSON: N o t a s fa r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d M r C h a ir m a n . It was f o ll o w i n g p r o c e s s . I f I d o n o t - I d o n o t - I c a n n o t s a y t h a t t h e r e - t h e r e should have been any pressure. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, w e h a v e a n a ffi d a v it fr o m M s Va n Ec k fr o m - fr o m P l a n e t M e d ia . I f I c a n a s k y o u t o tu r n t h e r e Mr J a c k s o n . I t is a t p a g e 1 3 9 . C h a ir u n f o r tu n a te ly th e - t h e e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e h a s b e e n - is - is c o n t a i n e d w i th in t h e b o d y o f t h e a ffi d a v i t a n d t h is t e x t is 10 q u i te s m a ll . W e h a v e g o t a m a g n i fi e d v e r s io n o f i t . I f y o u t u r n t o p a g e 146. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d C h a ir, M s - M s Va n Ec k ’s a ffi d a v i t is o b v i o u s l y a t t h i s s t a g e o n ly p r e s e n te d t o th e C o m m is s i o n o n a p r o v i s i o n a l b a s is s u b j e c t to y o u r - y o u r d ir e c ti o n i n d u e c o u r s e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r J a c k s o n , a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e M s M o r e m i s e n d s a n e m a i l t o y o u a n d M r Si g o n y e l a a n d th a t i s o n 1 4 D e c e m b e r a n d t h e r e s h e - s h e c o n fi r m s w h a t I u n d e r s ta n d y o u to 20 h a v e s a i d a b o u t th e - t h e c o s t o f th e s p o n s o r s h ip a t 3 2 7 0 0 0 p e r m o n t h o r 1 . 9 m il li o n o v e r s ix m o n t h s . M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t Mr C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: A n d a t th a t s t a g e w h e n s h e a d v is e s o n t h i s - th e s e c o s ts s ti ll t h e o n ly b e n e f it - i f a n y - th a t Tr a n s n e t is g u a r a n te e d i s w h a t e v e r b e n e f i t w o u l d fl o w fr o m p la c i n g i t s lo g o o n th e r e l e v a n t p a g e ? Page 82 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R J A C K S O N : Ye s M r C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . T h a n k y o u a n d f o r t h a t i n s ix m o n t h s y o u w o u l d p a y j u s t u n d e r t w o m il li o n ? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s s ir. Ye s M r C h a ir m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h e n j u s t t h e - t h e e m a il i m m e d ia t e l y a b o v e . Ms Va n E c k r e s p o n d s a n d s a y s : “ H i t h e r e a l l , b a s e d o n th is c o s t th e s p o n s o r s h ip is e x tr e m e l y e x p e n s i v e a n d n o t w o r th t h e R O I . ” I a s s u m e R e t u r n o n In v e s t m e n t ? 10 M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : “I recommend we do not proceed. A s p e r my p r e v i o u s m a i l t o J a c q u e s ( s e e a tt a c h e d ) t h e t o t a l c o s t w a s c o n fir m e d a t 3 2 7 5 7 6 f o r 2 2 weeks. A t t h is d e a l it w a s f a n t a s t ic , b u t n o t a s i t s t a n d s n o w. ” S o a s I u n d e r s ta n d … CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. W h a t w a s f a n t a s ti c ? Is - is paying so m u c h t o - f o r - f o r p u t ti n g y o u r lo g o o n - o n a n e w s p a p e r p a g e ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 C h a ir, a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t a n d M r J a c k s o n please … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J A C K S O N : J a . N o M r C h a ir. S h e w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g e ls e ? MR JACKSON: Correct. S h e w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t i t w a s c o n fir m e d a t 3 2 7 5 7 6 f o r 2 2 w e e k s . S o i t w a s a lo n g e r p e r i o d . Page 83 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n i f i t w a s … MR JACKSON: Even if it was … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is my q u e s ti o n . M R J A C K S O N : E v e n a t - s h e s a y s a t le a s t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n b e t t e r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : B u t s t il l s h e i s o f t h e o p i n i o n t h a t w a s to o e x p e n s iv e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s j u s t th a t s h e s a y s i t w a s f a n ta s tic . I m e a n I d o n o t k n o w. M a y b e y o u c o m m u n ic a ti o n s p e o p l e … MR JACKSON: I just think it was sub - sub … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e y o u c o m m u n i c a t i o n s p e o p l e k n o w th a t t h e r e is s o m e v a l u e . I d o n o t s e e m u c h v a l u e i f a ll - a ll y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a v e is j u s t p u t t h e - t h e l o g o u n l e s s th e r e i s s o m e m e s s a g e t h a t g o e s w it h it , b u t m a y b e p e o p l e i n y o u r f ie l d s a y n o . T h e r e is s o m e v a l u e . MR JACKSON: For 22 weeks we could consider … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. MR JACKSON: Or look at … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR JACKSON: And maybe C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 M R J A C K S O N : L i k e y o u r i g h tl y p u t i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR JACKSON: Provide messaging that … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J A C K S O N : Ta l k s to a n - a n a u d i e n c e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 84 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR JACKSON: But not at what … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J A C K S O N : T h a t a m o u n t w a s - w a s th e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J A C K S O N : A g r e e d t o . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n t h e n tu r n to - b a c k t o t h e a n n e x u r e s to y o u r p a g e a ff id a v i t t o p a g e 5 7 . CHAIRPERSON: 10 M a y b e b e fo r e y o u d o t h a t. n e w s p a p e r is Tr a n s n e t ’s lo g o . I f a ll y o u w il l p u t i n t h e What purpose - what value does that g iv e Tr a n s n e t ? M R J A C K S O N : Yo u s e e M r C h a ir m a n y o u h a v e t h e o p p o r tu n it y i n th a t in s t a n c e fo r - f r o m - I a m t a lk i n g fr o m t h e b r a n d p o i n t o f v ie w. T h a t y o u a r e to p o f m i n d in p e o p l e ’s e v e r y d a y li f e . W h a t m a k e s t h i s d i ff ic u l t in t h is s c e n a r i o is t h a t w e h a v e n o t t e s t e d th e r e a c h o f t h is n e w s p a p e r o r who is reading it. S o t h e r e - a t t h is s t a g e w e c o u l d n o t s a y th a t i n d e e d w e w o u ld b e g e tt i n g a w a r e n e s s o r a n y t h in g o f v a l u e to b e h o n e s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s e e m a y b e I c o u l d u n d e r s t a n d a s i t u a t io n w h e r e a 20 new company that is not known comes up and says we want to - to be k n o w n in t h e m a r k e t . W e w a n t o u r c u s t o m e r s t o k n o w a b o u t u s . O n e o f t h e w a y s w e w il l d o is h a v e o u r l o g o i n fr o n t o f - i n t h e ir e y e s e a c h t i m e t h e y p ic k u p t h i s n e w s p a p e r. E v e n if t h e r e i s n o m e s s a g e . L e t t h e m j u s t k n o w th e r e is a n o r g a n is a t i o n l ik e t h i s . M a y b e I c o u l d u n d e r s ta n d t h a t, b u t w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t Tr a n s n e t . Page 85 of 187 Whatever 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 n a m e s - t h e r e h a v e b e e n a c h a n g e o f n a m e s . R e a ll y Tr a n s n e t i s k n o w n - h a s b e e n k n o w n f o r a lo n g t i m e . Why do you want it to be known m o r e th a n th a t f o r ? MR JACKSON: I - I … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u m u s t h e lp m e . M a y b e b e c a u s e I a m n o t i n c o m m u n ic a ti o n s th e r e i s s o m e t h in g i d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d , b u t I a m s a y i n g it is - i t i s a k n o w n e n t i ty. MR JACKSON: I - I a g r e e w i t h y o u M r C h a ir m a n . I t h i n k i n th is in s t a n c e I w o u l d lik e t o r e s p o n d b y a n d t h is is m y u s i n g m y 10 c o m m u n ic a ti o n s … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R J A C K S O N : H a t . A l l p u b li c i ty i s g o o d p u b lic i ty, b u t i n t h i s in s ta n c e I c a n n o t d e fe n d i t a n d th a t is w h a t I … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R J A C K S O N : I w a n t to b e c l e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . M R J A C K S O N : W h a t is d i ff ic u l t a s w e ll i s w h e n y o u a l s o s p o n s o r … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : Yo u w o u l d h o p e t h a t t h e r e i s s o m e a s s o c i a ti o n w i th … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : W h o y o u a r e g e t ti n g i n v o lv e d in . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : To - b e b e n e f ic ia l to y o u . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. MR JACKSON: I n t h is i n s t a n c e n o t h i n g c a n b e f u r th e r f r o m t h e r e , Page 86 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 b e c a u s e w e d o n o t k n o w th is … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : N e w p u b li c a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR JACKSON: S o w e h a d n o b e n e fi t e i t h e r. E v e n i n t h a t - in t h a t sense. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : T h e r e w a s n o a s s o c i a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R J A C K S O N : S o fr o m a - fr o m th a t b u s i n e s s p o in t o f v i e w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : I t - i t s h o u l d b e - y o u a r e r ig h t i n q u e s ti o n i n g . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n w h e n - b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n s ta r t e d w i th it s h e a r in g s t h e r e w a s s o m e s u g g e s ti o n th a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n c o u l d e n g a g e - y o u k n o w - s p e c ia li s t s i n c o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d s o a n d s o o n , b u t I d e c i d e d n o , b e c a u s e I s a id th e C o m m i s s i o n is t h e r e . A lo t o f p e o p l e h a v e in t e r e s t i n i t . T h e m e d ia w i ll b e t a l k i n g a b o u t i t . P e o p l e w i ll g e t t o k n o w a b o u t it . W e w i ll c a l l m e d i a c o n fe r e n c e s a n d t h e m e d ia w i ll c o m e . P e o p l e w il l t a lk a b o u t t h e - t h e 20 C o m m i s s i o n . S o w h y s h o u l d w e p a y m o n e y t o s p e c i a l is t . To d o w h a t f o r t h e C o m m i s s i o n ? T h e - t h e C o m m i s s i o n is k n o w n a n d w il l b e k n o w n e v e n m o r e a s i t d o e s i ts w o r k . S o I l o o k a t Tr a n s n e t a n d s a y r e a ll y. W h y, b u t I d o n o t w a n t a n y b o d y t o s t a r t t h i n k in g t h e r e i s n o n e e d f o r c o m m u n ic a ti o n s p e c ia li s ts . I a m s u r e - I a m s u r e th e r e is , b u t t h a t is s u e o f ju s t p la c i n g a l o g o j u s t s e e m s - I h a v e d i ff ic u l ty i n Page 87 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 u n d e r s t a n d in g w h a t v a l u e , b u t m a y b e I w il l g e t t o u n d e r s t a n d a s I h e a r m o r e e v i d e n c e , b u t i t w o u l d b e d i ff e r e n t i f th e r e is s o m e m e s s a g e t h a t g o e s w i t h th e l o g o f o r m e . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a i r. Mr J a c k s o n , c a n I a s k y o u to turn to page 57? M R J A C K S O N : J u s t s a y t h a t a g a i n . S o r r y. 5 7 ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 5 7 . I t i s A n n e x u r e 8 . H a v e y o u g o t 5 7 ? MR JACKSON: I do. O h s o r r y. Th is is 1 5 7 - 5 7 . Sorry about that. Ye s . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h i s i s a n o th e r e m a il f r o m M s Va n Ec k . S h e s t a r ts b y s e tt i n g o u t t h e p r o p o s a l . C a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d fr o m b e l o w t h e - t h e l a s t b u l l e t p o i n t? MR JACKSON: Sure. “ S o b a s e d o n th e a b o v e c o s ts w e c a n n o t j u s ti fy t h is feature. Fr o m t h e p o i n t o f v ie w o f n o in t e r i m A B C having b e in g c ir c u l a ti o n is p r o v id e d as concerned. yet and However v e r i fi e d fr o m an a s s o c i a t i o n p o i n t o f v ie w t h i s f e a t u r e i s d e f in i te ly w e ll w r it t e n a n d i t w o u l d b e b e n e f ic i a l to b e 20 a s s o c i a t e d w i th t h is . I t is a s h a m e th a t t h e T N A is n o t p r e p a r e d to o ff e r m o r e v a l u e s o th a t i t b e c o m e s a partnership. is . A t t h is s t a g e t h e o ff e r s t a n d s a s it A s t h e o ff e r s ta n d s a t t h e m o m e n t i t is t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n n o t t o s u p p o r t t h e s p o n s o r s h i p . K i n d r e g a r d s , H a n li e Va n Ec k . ” Page 88 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u . Can we go back to where it says? “ Fr o m a v a lu e p o i n t o f v i e w n o i n te r i m A B C h a s been provided.” M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W h a t is - w h a t i s a n i n t e r i m A B C ? MR JACKSON: T h a t i s a - a n i n d ic a ti o n o f a n e w s p a p e r ’s c ir c u l a ti o n n u m b e r s . I t is r e a c h a n d t h e s p e c i fic d e m o g r a p h ic t h a t it t a r g e ts . S o i t is - i t is s t a ti s t ic s w e c a n u s e i n o r d e r t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e s p e c i fic a lly 10 if i t is t a r g e t e d a t a s p e c i f ic a u d i e n c e o r a m e s s a g e w e w is h t o - to c o m m u n ic a te . S o th e T N A a t t h i s s ta g e h a d n o n e o f t h a t a v a il a b l e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d . A B C - t h e e v id e n c e w e h a v e h e a r d a lr e a d y is th e A u d it B u r e a u o f C i r c u l a ti o n a n d C h a ir i n t h e c o u r s e o f M r Pr e to r i u s ’ e v id e n c e w e o b t a i n e d a n a ff id a v it f r o m t h e A u d it B u r e a u o f C ir c u l a ti o n to c o n fir m t h a t T N A n e v e r a p p li e d f o r a - a c c r e d i t a ti o n a n d s o in o t h e r w o r d s y o u k n e w n o th i n g a b o u t th e c ir c u l a ti o n o f t h e n e w s p a p e r in t o w h ic h y o u w o u ld b e p la c i n g t h e a d v e r t is e m e n t ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t o n i ts o w n w o u l d h a v e b e e n c r i tic a l t o k n o w. 20 Is i t n o t ? M R J A C K S O N : A b s o lu t e l y M r C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b e c a u s e o t h e r w is e y o u m a y b e w a s ti n g m o n e y. M R J A C K S O N : I t i s a h u g e r i s k Mr C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja. MR JACKSON: It is money spent. Page 89 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t is fr u i t le s s . J a . I t m ig h t b e fr u i t … M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f - if w e c a n t h e n j u s t t w o p a g e s o v e r t o p a g e 5 9 a n d - a n d t h is is a n o th e r e m a il f r o m M s Va n E c k a n d i t is o v e r a c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t s h e h a s h a d w i t h Mr S i g o n y e la a n d s h e s a y s : “ A s p e r o u r t e l e c o n i t w o u ld b e g r e a t if w e c o u l d g e t s o m e fr e e a d v e r t is i n g s p a c e t o g i v e u s v a l u e fo r t h is p r o p o s a l. ” 10 S h e s e ts o u t th e r e - w h a t d o e s F P F C s t a n d fo r ? M R J A C K S O N : I t is Fr o n t P a g e F u ll C o lo u r a d s t h a t w o u ld b e a d d e d . S o i t w o u l d a p p e a r a s - o n t h e f r o n t p a g e a d d i ti o n a l a d v e r ti s i n g w h ic h a g a in M r C h a ir m a n w o u ld b e a Tr a n s n e t l o g o . CHAIRPERSON: Would be? M R J A C K S O N : A Tr a n s n e t l o g o … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R J A C K S O N : O n t h e fr o n t p a g e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : S o t h e y - t h e y a g r e e to a d d i ti o n a l . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d s h e c o n c l u d e s b y s a y i n g : “ I f th a t w e r e t h e c a s e I w o u l d r e c o m m e n d w e support the sponsorship.” M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e - m a y b e i t m i g h t b e w o r t h w h il e r e a d i n g t h a t e m a i l i n fu ll - i f w e h a v e n o t r e a d i t - in t o t h e r e c o r d . Page 90 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a t e m a i l r e a d s : “ H i t h e r e M b o n is o , a s p e r o u r t e l e c o n it w o u ld b e g r e a t i f w e c o u l d g e t s o m e fr e e a d v e r t is i n g s p a c e to g iv e u s v a l u e f o r t h i s p r o p o s a l . S ix F P F C a d s o r 1 2 Half Page FC …” W h i c h is F u l l C o l o u r ? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : “ … w o u l d g iv e v a l u e o f 7 7 5 0 0 0 , 0 0 . F o u r Fu ll P a g e Fu ll C o l o u r a d s o r e ig h t H a l f P a g e F u l l C o l o u r w o u l d g iv e v a l u e o f R 5 1 6 6 7 2 ,0 0 . Of c o u r s e th e s ix Fu ll P a g e Fu ll C o l o u r a d s ( 1 2 H a l f P a g e a d s ) w o u l d b e p r e f e r r e d , b u t e v e n i f w e o n ly g e t fo u r Fu ll P a g e F u l l C o l o u r a d s ( e ig h t H a l f P a g e F u l l C o lo u r a d s ) . I t w o u l d a s s is t i n ju s t if y i n g t h e c o s t t o v a l u e r a ti o o f t h e p r o p o s a l . I f t h a t w e r e t h e case I would sponsorship. recommend we support the Please let me know if you have any a d d it i o n a l - i f y o u n e e d a n y a d d i ti o n a l i n fo r m a t io n . ” 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t i s t h e d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n w h a t s h e w o u l d n o t s u p p o r t e a r l ie r a n d w h a t s h e w i ll - is p r e p a r e d t o s u p p o r t n o w ? Is it t h e s iz e o f … MR JACKSON: Mr Chairman … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. Page 91 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R J A C K S O N : B a s ic a lly t h e y h a d a g r e e d o r t h e y h a d n o w n e g o ti a te d a d d it i o n a l a d v e r t is in g s p a c e . S o i t w o u ld b e i n c l u d e d . N o t o n ly i n s i d e t h e p u b li c a t io n , b u t o n th e fr o n t p a g e a s w e ll y o u w o u l d b e g i v e n t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o a d v e r tis e b y y o u r - y o u r lo g o . S o i n h e r mi n d t h a t c o n s ti t u te d fu r t h e r v a l u e a n d s h e w o u ld t h e n b e i n t h e p o s i t io n to - t o s u p p o r t o r tr y a n d j u s t if y t h e c o s ts th a t w e r e a s s o c ia t e d M r C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t in t e r m s o f fr o n t p a g e w a s i t s t il l j u s t g o i n g t o b e p u t t in g l o g o - a l o g o w i t h o u t n e c e s s a r i ly a n y g u a r a n t e e … M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O r - o r p u t ti n g a m e s s a g e ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t M r C h a ir m a n . I t w o u l d h a v e - it w o u l d h a v e b e e n a l o g o a n d i t w o u l d t h e n h a v e m o s t l ik e l y a b i g in t e r v ie w. S o t h e - th e l o g o w it h th e a s s o c ia t io n o f t h e s p o n s o r s h i p o f th e b i g in t e r v ie w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e - t h e i n te r v i e w n o w c o u l d b e a n y b o d y ? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o m i g h t h a v e n o th i n g t o d o w i th … M R J A C K S O N : Tr a n s n e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr a n s n e t? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON: I m u s t c o n fe s s I s t ill s tr u g g le to s e e t h e v a l u e e v e n w i t h t h a t . O k a y. A lr i g h t . Page 92 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W e l l C h a ir in - i n M r J a c k s o n ’s a ffi d a v i t h e does too. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e g o t h e r e to p a g e 1 0 M r J a c k s o n a t paragraph 46? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u - y o u s a y t h a t y o u f o u n d t h e d e c i s i o n to - t o n o w p a r t ic ip a t e i n th e b i g i n t e r v ie w s u s p i c i o u s a n d y o u d i d n o t s e e it a s j u s t i fi a b l e . C a n y o u e l a b o r a te o n t h a t ? 10 MR JACKSON: M r C h a ir m a n , a s I h a v e s a i d i n my a ffi d a v i t I - I w a s s u s p i c i o u s b e c a u s e t h e a d v ic e r e c e iv e d w a s c l e a r. I t w a s n o t w o r t h t h e m o n e y w e w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o p a r t ic ip a t e i n t h e s p o n s o r s h i p a n d li t e r a l ly a d a y la t e r th a t d e c is io n c h a n g e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : B a s e d o n f e e a d v e r t is i n g a s y o u r i g h t ly p u t . R e a lly d id n o t m e a n a n y t h i n g m o r e th a n w h a t w e - w h a t w e a g r e e . S o I - t h a t w a s m y - m y th o u g h t a n d b e c a m e s u s p i c i o u s a s t o w h y - w h y t h is c h a n g e and remember again. It is a n e w n e w s p a p e r. S o e v e n if i t w a s fr o n t page. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : T h e r e w a s s t il l n o g u a r a n t e e a s to w h a t r e tu r n o n t h e in v e s t m e n t w e w e r e g o i n g t o r e c e iv e . S o w e w e r e p u t t in g t h e s p e n d s p e n d in g o f t h i s m o n e y - it w a s a t r is k . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R J A C K S O N : W e h a d n o w a y t o - to j u s t if y i t r e g a r d l e s s o f w h a t w e Page 93 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 s a i d w a s a d d i n g v a l u e a n d ja . T h a t is w h a t I b e l ie v e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A t - a t t h is s t a g e y o u s ti ll k n e w n o th i n g a b o u t t h e c i r c u l a ti o n d a t a ? MR JACKSON: None. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Yo u k n e w n o th i n g a b o u t w h o th e n e w s p a p e r w a s r e a c h in g ? M R J A C K S O N : N o . R e m e m b e r i t s t il l h a s b e e n a n e w p u b li c - th e y t h e y h a d n o th in g . W e c o u l d n o t e v e n g u e s s o r h a v e t h e m g u e s s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : H m . 10 M R J A C K S O N : I t - i t w a s c o m p l e te ly n e w. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d - a n d d i d y o u r a is e t h e s e k i n d s o f c o n c e r n s w i t h M r S ig o n y e l a ? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . I d id M r C h a ir m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w h a t w a s h is r e s p o n s e ? MR JACKSON: That it was not important at that stage. CHAIRPERSON: What was not important? M R J A C K S O N : M y q u e s t io n a n d m y c o n c e r n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t h e s a i d ? M R J A C K S O N : Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: And he … M R J A C K S O N : A n d th a t w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s b a s ic a l ly d i s m is s i v e ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t. T h a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I f w e c a n th e n t u r n Mr J a c k s o n t o t h e - t h e Page 94 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 fir s t i n t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m t h a t a p p r o v e d t h e s p o n s o r s h i p . T h a t is - t h a t i s a t J J 11 o n p a g e 6 6 . CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e m in d m e w h a t w a s - o h M r Si g o n y e l a w a s G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C o r p o r a te a n d P u b l ic A ff a ir s ? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e w h o l e o f Tr a n s n e t ? M R J A C K S O N : F o r t h e w h o le o f Tr a n s n e t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 10 And - and he was the person to whom you reported? M R J A C K S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir, w e w e r e ju s t g o in g t o p a g e 6 6 . T h e t h e in t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m c o n ti n u e s t h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I a m th e r e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : O k a y. C a n y o u t e ll u s w h o th a t is fr o m a n d a n d w h o i t is a d d r e s s e d t o ? M R J A C K S O N : It is a d d r e s s e d fr o m th e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r fr o m G r o u p C o r p o r a te a n d P u b l ic A ff a i r s M r S i g o n y e l a w h o is m y - w h o I r e p o r t e d t o t h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e - M r Br i a n M o le f e . 20 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d th e r e - t h e r e a r e o n e o r t w o a s p e c ts o f t h is p r o p o s a l th a t I w o u l d - I w o u l d j u s t lik e t o p a u s e o n . T h e fir s t is in p a r a g r a p h 2 w h e r e is s a y s : “The New Age p u b li c a t io n is one of the key p u b lic a ti o n th a t Tr a n s n e t ta r g e ts f o r p o s i t io n i n g i ts b r a n d a n d i ts i m a g e a s p a r t o f i ts r e p u t a t i o n Page 95 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 m a n a g e m e n t s tr a t e g y. ” Wa s t h a t tr u e ? MR JACKSON: N o i t w a s n o t tr u e M r C h a ir m a n , I a m n o t a w a r e o f s u c h a s tr a t e g y o r w h y a d e c is io n fo r t h e T N A w o u l d b e p a r t o f th a t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Was the New Age one of the key p u b lic a ti o n s th a t Tr a n s n e t t a r g e te d ? MR JACKSON: W e ll i n th e s e n s e t h a t fr o m a n in s t r u c t i o n p o i n t o f v i e w y e s , b u t I m e a n f r o m a c a m p a ig n o r a s t r a te g y th e r e w a s n e v e r e v e r m e n ti o n o f th e N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f w e t u r n t h e p a g e t o 6 7 t h e b u l le t p o i n t a t t h e to p s t a r ti n g , t h i s p la t f o r m , “ T h i s p l a t fo r m w il l a ff o r d Tr a n s n e t th e o p p o r tu n it y t o s e n d k e y m e s s a g e s t o o u r s t a k e h o ld e r s ’ , H o w w a s i t g o in g to a c h i e v e t h a t ? MR JACKSON: L ik e I s a i d m y t h o u g h ts w o u ld b e , i f y o u w e r e g i v e n a s tr i p p e r a d y o u c o u ld b e g iv e n t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to a d d r e s s o r m a k e a c e r t a i n s t a t e m e n t o f i m p o r t a n c e r e l a ti n g t o a s t a k e h o l d e r y o u w o u l d – t h a t h o w e v e r, w a s n o t t h e c a s e a n d a g a i n , M r C h a i r m a n y o u d id n ’ t k n o w w h o th e s e s t a k e h o ld e r s w h e r e o r w h o th e s e – th is n e w s p a p e r w o u l d 20 r e a c h . S o y o u c a n n o t v e r i fy o r j u s t if y i t a s tr u e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h e n i f w e j u s t tu r n o v e r o n e m o r e p a g e t o p a g e 6 8 t h i s i s w h e r e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n i s c o n c e r n e d , i t says, “ W e r e c o m m e n d t h a t t h e G C E a p p r o v e s t h e p r o p o s a l fo r th e s p o n s o r s h i p f o r t h e N e w A g e , t h e b ig i n t e r v ie w, t h a t th e s p o n s o r s h i p Page 96 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 w i ll b e r e v i e w a b l e e v e r y th r e e m o n th s ” , I t’s c o m p il e d a n d r e c o m m e n d e d b y Mr Si g o n y e l a a n d i t ’s s ig n e d b y Mr M o l e f e . C a n y o u te ll u s t h e d a t e o f t h e s i g n a t u r e s o f e a c h of them? MR JACKSON: T h e f ir s t c o m p i l e d a n d r e c o m m e n d e d b y Mr M o d i s a S i g o n y e l a i s o n F e b r u a r y 1 2 , 2 0 1 2 a n d i t s fi n a l a p p r o v a l d a t e is b y Mr B r i a n M o l e fe , G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u ti v e o n t h e 2 3 r d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: 10 Thank you. I s e e t h a t – I d o n ’ t k n o w if i t ’s a la d y o r a m a n , M s o r M r Zo lo S t i ff e n d i d n o t s ig n , d o y o u k n o w w h y h e o r s h e d i d n o t s ig n ? MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: I w o u l d b e s p e c u l a ti n g Mr C h a i r p e r s o n . O h o k a y th a t ’s f i n e , I t h o u g h t th e r e mi g h t b e s ig n if ic a n c e i n t h e f a c t t h e r e ’s n o s i g n a t u r e t h e r e , o k a y. MR JACKSON: M a y b e l e t m e a d d M r C h a ir m a n in n o r m a l p r o c e s s t h e r e n e e d t o b e a l l t h e s i g n a t o r ie s i f t h e y w e r e in c l u d e d y o u c a n n o t , n o t – b e c a u s e M is s Z o l a S ti ff e n w o u l d b e M r Si g o n y e l a ’s d ir e c t b o s s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o r d i n a r il y i f a d o c u m e n t li k e t h is r e a c h e s t h e p e r s o n w h o s e s ig n a tu r e a p p e a r s l a s t i f t h e r e i s s o m e b o d y w h o h a s n o t s ig n e d w h o w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e s i g n e d a lr e a d y th e n h e ’s s u p p o s e d 20 t o f in d o u t w h y ? MR JACKSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a ir, h e w o u l d n ’ t s ig n it e it h e r …[intervenes]. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s because he w o u ld be s ig n in g on r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f t h a t p e r s o n i m m e d i a te l y b e f o r e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . MR JACKSON: C o r r e c t , w h o w a s h i s d ir e c t r e p o r t . Page 97 of 187 the 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: J a b e c a u s e th a t p e r s o n is t h e s u p e r v is o r o f t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . MR JACKSON: C o r r e c t Mr C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M r J a c k s o n I’ d j u s t l ik e u s t o t a k e n o t e o f th e d a t e o f Mr M o l e f e ’s s ig n a tu r e w h i c h is t h e 2 3 r d o f F e b r u a r y, w e ’l l r e t u r n t o th a t i n a m o m e n t . C a n I a s k y o u t o j u s t g o t o p a g e – b a c k t o p a g e 6 6 w h ic h is t h e c o v e r p a g e o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m a n d y o u s e e th e s u b j e c t is th e s p o n s o r s h i p o f t h e N e w A g e , t h e b i g 10 in t e r v ie w. MR JACKSON: 66 yes. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h e s u b j e c t w i ll y o u j u s t r e a d t h e s u b j e c t li n e ? MR JACKSON: Th e s p o n s o r s h ip o f t h e N e w A g e ( T N A ) t h e b i g in t e r v ie w. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u a n d th is w a s a p r o p o s a l f o r a sponsorship? MR JACKSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 I’ ll r e t u r n t o t h a t in a m o m e n t . I f I c o u l d t h e n a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 7 2 … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I ’ m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e , if y o u g o b a c k t o p a g e 66, paragraph 4, bullet point 3, “This sponsorship o p p o r t u n i ty w i ll afford Tr a n s n e t f o ll o w i n g b e n e f i ts , n a m i n g r i g h ts o n t h e p a g e b o r d e r ” , W h a t d i d t h a t m e a n , n a m e r i g h ts o n th e p a g e b o r d e r ? Page 98 of 187 the 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR JACKSON: J a a s e x p l a in e d t h e a d v e r t is i n g o n th e fr o n t p a g e , w h ic h i n c l u d e d t h e lo g o s Mr C h a i r m a n w o u l d t h e n h a v e t h e w o r d , T h e B i g I n t e r v i e w o r t h e w o r d s Th e Bi g In t e r v ie w s o t h a t i t a s s u m e s th e a s s o c i a t i o n w it h Tr a n s n e t s o i t w a s a Tr a n s n e t i n i t ia t iv e a n d o w n e d t h e r ig h ts t o th e B i g I n t e r v ie w, I d o n ’ t k n o w i f th a t m a k e s s e n s e . S o t h a t w a s w h a t w a s p l a c e d o n th e fr o n t c o v e r. CHAIRPERSON: N a mi n g r ig h ts w o u ld n o r m a lly m e a n , I c a n s a y, th is i s g o i n g t o b e – t h e s t a d i u m w il l b e c a l le d F N B S t a d i u m , is n ’ t i t ? MR JACKSON: 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Th is c o m p e ti t io n w i ll b e c a l le d N e d b a n k c o m p e ti ti o n o k a y, n o w w it h t h a t u n d e r s ta n d i n g d o e s t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g a p p ly t o th is naming rights here? MR JACKSON: Th a t is th e c o r r e c t u n d e r s t a n d in g Mr C h a ir m a n a n d in t h is s e n s e i t m e a n s t h a t i t w a s c a ll e d T h e Tr a n s n e t B ig I n t e r v i e w s o t h a t w a s t h e n a m i n g r i g h ts a s s o c i a te d t o Tr a n s n e t b y v ir t u e o f t h is sponsorship. CHAIRPERSON: B u t if it i s g o i n g t o b e c a l l e d th e Tr a n s n e t I n te r v i e w w h y is i t t h a t Tr a n s n e t i s n o t th e o n e w h o d e c i d e s o n w h o w il l b e p u t t h e r e , w h o w il l b e in t e r v ie w e d ? 20 MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: I a g r e e Mr C h a ir m a n , i t s h o u ld . O k a y, a lr i g h t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir w e t h o u g h t i t m i g h t b e h e lp f u l to s e e a n e x a m p le o f t h e Bi g I n t e r v i e w … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: O h t h a t w i ll b e h e l p fu l y e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Th e t e x t o f th e a c t u a l a r ti c l e is i ll e g i b l e i t’s Page 99 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t o o s m a l l b u t i t g iv e s y o u a s e n s e o f th e l a y o u t. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h a t w i ll b e h e l p f u l . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: W e b e g le a v e t o h a n d t h a t u p . Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C o u l d w e a p p r o a c h th e w i t n e s s t o g i v e h i m a copy? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d C h a ir w e ’ ll s u g g e s t t h a t th is is in s e r t e d – s o r r y I’ v e le f t t h e s e c o n d p a g e b e h i n d . 10 W e ’ ll s u g g e s t t h a t t h is is i n s e r t e d in t o M M 5 w it h p a g i n a te d p a g e n u m b e r 1 8 1 . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r J a c k s o n c e r t a i n l y fr o m t h i s p i c tu r e i t d o e s n ’t a p p e a r th a t i t ’s c a l l e d t h e Tr a n s n e t B ig I n te r v i e w ? MR JACKSON: M r C h a ir m a n – y o u a r e c o r r e c t b u t I j u s t w a n t t o h i g h l ig h t th is w i ll b e t h e f u t u r e – t h e in it ia l a g r e e m e n t w h i c h is t h e in s i d e , y o u ’ ll s e e i t ’s p a g e 2 0 s o th e r e w o u l d b e a n o t h e r v e r s i o n w h ic h w o u ld i n c lu d e t h e fr o n t p a g e w h e r e i t w o u l d s t a te , Tr a n s n e t t h e B i g I n t e r v i e w. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 MR JACKSON: I see. A n d th a t w o u l d b e th e n a m i n g r i g h ts t h a t c a m e a s a d d it i o n a l b u t o t h e r w is e t h is i s h o w i t a p p e a r e d . CHAIRPERSON: Tr a n s n e t w a s ju s t b e i n g r o b b e d , I m e a n r e a l ly. Yo u s a y t h e y m u s t p a y o v e r – c lo s e t o R 2 m i ll io n a n d – ju s t b e c a u s e y o u a r e g o i n g t o c o m e u p w i th a n i n t e r v ie w a n d y o u ’l l c a l l i t t h e Tr a n s n e t Bi g I n t e r v i e w a n d i t m ig h t h a v e n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h Tr a n s n e t , I’ m n o t m is s i n g Page 100 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a n y th in g ? MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: Yo u a r e n o t Mr C h a ir y e s . O k a y th a n k y o u . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Mr Jackson can I ask you then to turn to p a g e 7 2 a n d t h e e m a il a t t h e t o p o f t h a t p a g e . I t ’s a n e m a il fr o m H a n l ie v a n Ec k i t’s t o J a c q u e s R o u x w h o y o u s a y is f r o m T N A , “ H i t h e r e J a c q u e s , l o n g t i m e n o s p e a k , h o p e th e y e a r h a s b e e n a g r e a t o n e s o f a r. I h a v e h a d a n in s t r u c t i o n f r o m Tr a n s n e t t o p r o c e e d w i th t h e s p o n s o r s h i p ” , S o a s I r e a d t h a t, M s v a n E c k w h o w o r k s f o r P l a n i t M e d ia 10 w h ic h is a s u b - c o n tr a c t o r t o t h e a g e n c y h a s r e c e iv e d a n i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m Tr a n s n e t t o p r o c e e d w i th th e s p o n s o r s h i p . T h e d a t e o f t h is is t h e 1 5 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 , w h o w o u ld h a v e g iv e n t h a t in s t r u c ti o n ? MR JACKSON: Th e o n l y d e l e g a t e d p e r s o n w h o c o u l d g iv e s u c h a n in s t r u c t i o n , M r C h a ir p e r s o n , is Mr M b o n i s o S ig o n y e l a . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d w a s t h e r e th e n e c e s s a r y i n te r n a l a p p r o v a l a t th is s t a g e ? MR JACKSON: N o I t h i n k i f w e r e c a l l t h e e a r l ie r m e m o t h a t a p p r o v a l w a s o n ly g iv e n o n t h e 2 3 r d o f F e b r u a r y, f o r m a lly. 20 in t e r n a l process that was done in order to So that was an p a r t ic i p a te in t h is s p o n s o r s h i p . S o t h i s , is i n fa c t, e a r l ie r t h a n w h a t w a s f o r m a l . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MR JACKSON: Right. Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o Ms v a n E c k h a d b e e n g iv e n a n in s t r u c t i o n to p r o c e e d b e f o r e f o r m a l a p p r o v a l h a d b e e n in t e r n a ll y Page 101 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 obtained? MR JACKSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e th e n g o to J J 1 3 , t h a t ’s o n p a g e 7 7 , a t t h e b o t to m o f th a t p a g e Ms M o r e m i fr o m th e a g e n c y s a y s , “Hi Joseph h e r e w i th the fl o w - p l a n for the New Age sponsorship for your approval”, W h a t ’s a fl o w - p l a n ? MR JACKSON: I t w o u l d s t a t e , Mr C h a ir m a n h o w i t w o u l d b e in s e r t e d a n d o n w h ic h d a t e s in t o t h e n e w s p a p e r. 10 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i t s a y s th e s p o n s o r s h i p is f o r s i x m o n th s s t a r t in g o n W e d n e s d a y 2 9 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 . T h e d a t e o f t h is is t h e 2 1 s t o f F e b r u a r y, t h is is s ti ll b e f o r e Mr M o le f e h a s s i g n e d ? MR JACKSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n y o u r e a d y o u r e m a il i m m e d i a te ly above? MR JACKSON: O k a y I s a y, “ H i M a r th a , th a n k s f o r th is . J u s t t o c o n fi r m a n d f o r c l a r i ty t h e s p o n s o r s h i p w i ll o n ly c o n t in u e i f t h e f o r m a l r e q u e s ts fo r a p p r o v a l , in t e r n a l ly – s o r r y t h e r e q u e s t is a p p r o v e d i n te r n a l ly. 20 W e a r e s ti ll a w a i ti n g t h e s ig n - o ff fr o m o u r s e n i o r s . T h e fl o w plan t h e r e fo r e , w i ll o n ly be considered when we have obtained approval and dates might have to change, regards Joseph”. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o y o u ’r e i n t e r v e n i n g t o t e l l M s M o r e m i t h a t , a c tu a l ly y o u c a n ’ t p r o c e e d w it h t h is u n t il w e o b ta in t h e n e c e s s a r y Page 102 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 approval? MR JACKSON: T h a t’s c o r r e c t Mr C h a ir m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MR JACKSON: W h i c h is th e s ig n a t u r e fr o m M r M o l e fe ? Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : D i d Mr S i g o n y e l a a t a ll s p e a k t o y o u a b o u t t h is ? MR JACKSON: H e s p o k e to m e t o t h e e x t e n t th a t I w a s h i n d e r i n g th e p r o c e s s a s h e c a ll e d i t a n d i t w a s f a r t o o s lo w a c c o r d i n g t o h i m , e x c e p t t h a t I w a s o f th e o p i n i o n t h a t p r o c e s s w a s b e i n g f o ll o w e d a n d u n t il s u c h 10 ti m e w e ’r e d o i n g w h a t w e ’r e s u p p o s e d t o , M r C h a ir m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : In f a c t , i n y o u r a ffi d a v it , if w e r e tu r n t h e r e , a t p a g e 1 2 , a t p a r a g r a p h 5 4 y o u ta lk a b o u t t h e p r e s s u r e u n d e r w h i c h y o u w e r e b e in g p u t b y Mr S i g o n y e la … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: At what page? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : P a g e 1 2 C h a ir in t h e a ff id a v i t a n d i ts paragraph 54. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : J u s t e l a b o r a te o n th e p r e s s u r e h e w a s p u t t in g o n y o u a n d w h a t h e e x p e c t e d fr o m y o u . 20 MR JACKSON: J a I s a y th a t t h r o u g h o u t t h e p r o c e s s I w a s u n d e r s ig n if ic a n t p r e s s u r e fr o m Mr S ig o n y e l a , h e w a s e x t r e m e ly e a g e r t o h a v e t h is a r r a n g e m e n t i n p l a c e a s s o o n a s p o s s i b le . A s I ’v e s a i d M r C h a ir m a n h e s a i d t h a t I w a s h in d e r i n g t h e p r o c e s s a n d in o r d e r to m a k e s u r e t h a t I’ m d o i n g m y j o b a s h e h a d i n s tr u c t e d I w a s t o p r o v i d e h i m w i t h a f o r m a l r e p o r t i n e s t a b li s h in g i f I’ m d o i n g m y w o r k a n d i n s o d o in g Page 103 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 I p r o v id e d h i m w it h a c h r o n o l o g i c a l s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s a s t o h o w t h e p r o c e s s is b e in g h a n d l e d a n d w h e r e it w a s a t t h a t p o i n t. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n w e g o to t h a t c h r o n o lo g ic a l s e q u e n c e o f e v e n ts , i t ’s a t p a g e 8 7 , i t ’s J J 1 5 , i s t h i s t h e d o c u m e n t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry what page? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: S o r r y C h a ir, i t ’s 8 7 … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . I ’ m n o t d o i n g v e r y w e ll i n k e e p i n g u p . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : N o C h a ir, I’ m g o in g to o q u ic k ly, I a p o lo g i s e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I t ’s p a g e 8 7 J J 1 5 , a n d M r J a c k s o n i s t h e c h r o n o lo g y y o u d r e w u p in r e s p o n s e t o Mr S i g o n y e l a ’s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . MR JACKSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a ir m a n , I b e l i e v e th a t i n o r d e r t o p r o v i d e t h e r e p o r t a s – I p u t i t i n a s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s d e t a i li n g e x a c tl y w h a t ’s h a p p e n in g o n w h ic h d a y a n d t h i s is w h a t I h a d p r o v i d e d y e s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MR JACKSON: H a d y o u e v e r d o n e t h is b e f o r e o r s i n c e ? N o I h a v e n o t. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : S o t h e p r e s s u r e t h a t M r S i g o n y e la w a s p u t t in g y o u u n d e r i n r e s p e c t o f th e B i g I n te r v i e w i n t h e N e w A g e w a s 20 p r e s s u r e t h a t y o u h a d n ’ t e x p e r i e n c e d fr o m h i m b e fo r e ? MR JACKSON: N o n o t t o t h is e x t e n t, t h is w a s a s if m y jo b w a s d e t e r m i n e d b y p r o o f th a t I’ m d o i n g my w o r k . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Thank you. Yo u a l s o s a y t h a t M r Sigonyela, at some point tried to cut the agency out of the process. MR JACKSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . Page 104 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MR JACKSON: H o w d i d h e tr y t o d o t h a t? W e ll h e r a is e d t h e is s u e a r o u n d t h e ir – o b v i o u s l y t h e y, a s fa r a s h e w a s c o n c e r n e d in a l s o c o n c lu d i n g t h i s s p o n s o r s h ip a n d h a d r a i s e d t h e q u e s ti o n a s t o w h a t s t o p s Tr a n s n e t fr o m a p p r o a c h i n g a n d d e a li n g w i t h t h e T N A d ir e c tl y a n d h e m a d e i t c le a r th a t I s h a r e t h a t w it h t h e a g e n c y. Th e y n e e d e d t o , b a s ic a l ly, p r o v e t h e ir v a lu e a n d t h e p r e s s u r e t o g e t t h is d o n e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Then Mr Jackson if we can then turn to the v a r io u s m e m o r a n d a , i n te r n a l m e m o r a n d a th a t w e r e c o m p il e d a n d 10 a p p r o v e d . Yo u d e t a i l th o s e a t – f r o m p a r a g r a p h 5 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t o n p a g e 1 3 , th e y r u n f r o m M a r c h 2 0 1 3 t o M a y 2 0 1 6 . MR JACKSON: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : I d o n ’ t in t e n d t o t a k e y o u t o e a c h o n e o f t h e m b u t t h e r e a r e j u s t t w o th a t I ’d li k e to d r a w p a r t ic u l a r a t te n ti o n t o . C a n w e f ir s t g o t o J J 2 2 t h a t ’s a t p a g e 11 5 , C h a ir, a r e y o u t h e r e ? MR JACKSON: I’ m t h e r e y e s , y e s I a m . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f y o u t u r n t h e p a g e t o 11 6 , w h o c o m p il e d t h i s m e m o r a n d u m ? MR JACKSON: 20 T h is w a s c o m p il e d b y my s e l f . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d g i v e n t h e d o u b ts t h a t y o u h a d a b o u t a l l o f th is , th a t y o u ’v e s h a r e d w i t h u s t o d a y, w h y d i d y o u c o m p i le i t? MR JACKSON: I t s e e m e d a s i f th e d e a l w a s d o n e b a s e d o n w h a t I w a s s e n t, i n m y h e a d , i t w a s n ’t e v e n a n e g o t ia ti o n . M o r e s o m y c o n c e r n s w a s p u t a s i d e b y, i t ’s n o t i m p o r ta n t b u t w h a t is i m p o r t a n t t o m e , h o w e v e r, w a s t h a t a f o r m a l p r o c e s s in t h e f o r m o f a s i g n - o ff o f th e Page 105 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 s p o n s o r s h i p b e d o n e , w h i c h a t t h is s t a g e w a s n o t , s o I h a d h o p e th a t i n making t h is f o r m a l, q u e s ti o n s would be r a is e d r e g a r d in g v a lu e e s p e c i a l ly i f t h e f in a l s i g n a t o r y i s o u r C h i e f E x e c u t iv e . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d i f y o u lo o k a t t h e – i f y o u g o b a c k t o 11 5 . MR JACKSON: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Which is the cover page of that m e m o r a n d u m , y o u ’l l s e e t h a t i t s a y s , “ T h e r e n e w a l o f th e N e w A g e t h e B i g In t e r v ie w p a r t n e r s h i p ” , 10 P r e v i o u s l y I d r e w y o u r a tt e n ti o n t o s p o n s o r s h i p . MR JACKSON: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : Do you have any understanding of why it w a s c h a n g e d fr o m s p o n s o r s h i p t o p a r t n e r s h i p ? MR JACKSON: I d o n o t , I r e a l ly d o n o t r e c a ll b u t i ts n o d i ff e r e n t to t h e o r i g in a l a g r e e m e n t , s o i n d e e d I b e li e v e i ts s t il l a s p o n s o r s h i p . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u . T h e n if y o u c a n t u r n to p a g e 1 2 1 , th is i s a m e m o r a n d u m o f t h e 9 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 5 , y o u s e e t h a t? MR JACKSON: I do. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : 20 Can you see who c o m p il e d that memorandum? MR JACKSON: Ye s t h is i s a f o r m e r c o ll e a g u e o f m i n e , M r C h a i r m a n , B e le s a N g o m a to M r M b o n i s o S ig o n y e l a , t h e G M a t C o r p o r a t e a n d P u b l ic A ff a ir s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a ir M s N g o m a w a s s e n t a R u l e 3 3 n o tic e a r i s i n g fr o m M r J a c k s o n ’s a ffi d a v i t , s h e h a s f il e d a n a ff id a v i t a n d Page 106 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t h e r e ’s a f e w a s p e c t s o f th a t a ff i d a v i t th a t I’ d l ik e t o p u t t o M r J a c k s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Okay ja. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n t o p a g e 1 7 4 t h a t ’s w h e r e M s N g o m a ’s a ff i d a v i t is c o n ta in e d a n d 1 7 4 is , in f a c t , t h e c o v e r le t t e r t o h e r a ff id a v i t, s h e s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 2 , “ I h a v e r e a d Mr J o s e p h J a c k s o n ’s a ff id a v i t , s a v e t o s t a t e t h a t I a c te d o n t h e in s t r u c t i o n o f my s u p e r i o r s i n t h e p r e p a r a t io n o f t h e m e m o r a n d a r e f e r r e d t o , I d o n o t d is p u t e t h a t I c o m p il e d t h e memoranda” I f w e th e n tu r n t o t h e a c tu a l c o n t e n t o f t h e a ff id a v i t , c a n I a s k 10 y o u f ir s t t o g o to p a r a g r a p h 1 0 , h e r e M s N g o m a is ta lk in g a b o u t business b r e a k f a s ts . I appreciate, Mr Jackson, that business b r e a k f a s t s w e r e n o t w i t h i n y o u r t e r r a i n b u t I w o u l d lik e t o a s k w h e t h e r t h is a c c o r d s w i t h y o u r e x p e r ie n c e o f b e i n g g i v e n i n s tr u c t io n s b y M r S i g o n y e l a . S h e s a y s th a t , “ I t w a s d u r in g t h i s p e r io d t h a t I r e c e i v e d i n s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t , G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C o r p o r a t e a n d P u b li c A ff a ir s Mr M b o n is o S i g o n y e l a e i t h e r d ir e c tl y o r t h r o u g h m y li n e m a n a g e r to c o m p i l e m e m o r a n d a f o r Tr a n s n e t to p a r t n e r 20 w i t h S A B C i n th e h o s t i n g o f th e N e w A g e b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s t s . T h e in s tr u c ti o n s fo r t h e m e m o r a n d a w o u l d c o m e w i th a b r i e f o u t li n e o r g u i d a n c e o f w h a t t h e m e m o r a n d a s h o u l d s ta t e . Mr S i g o n y e l a w o u ld t h e n e d i t a n d r e v is e th e c o n te n t b e f o r e s ig n in g a p p r o v a l ” . Wa s y o u r e x p e r i e n c e o f c o m p il i n g a m e m o r a n d u m s i m il a r t o Page 107 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 that? MR JACKSON: I t w o u l d b e s i m il a r M r C h a ir m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : W o u l d M r Si g o n y e l a g i v e y o u a n o u t li n e o f w h a t i t w a s t h a t n e e d e d t o g o in t o th e m e m o r a n d u m ? MR JACKSON: H e w o u ld , v e r y s p e c i f ic a lly a t s o m e p o i n t b u t li k e M s N g o m a s t a t e s to r e v is e a n d e d i t a s h e s a w fi t . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d t h e n if w e c a n tu r n t o p a r a g r a p h 2 7 , t h a t ’s a t p a g e 1 7 9 s h e s a y s t h e r e th a t , “ P r i o r to D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 , M r J o s e p h J a c k s o n w h o w a s t h e 10 brand and p u b li c i ty c o o r d i n a to r m anaged Tr a n s n e t ’s p a r t n e r s h i p in s u p p o r t o f t h e B ig I n te r v i e w w i t h i n th e N e w A g e Newspaper”. MR JACKSON: Ye s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : She says you left in December 2014 and then she says in paragraph 30, “Upon M r J a c k s o n ’s departure I was in s t r u c te d , b y the G e n e r a l M a n a g e r C o r p o r a t e a n d P u b l ic A ff a ir s , M r S i g o n y e l a t o m a n a g e Tr a n s n e t ’s c o n ti n u e d s u p p o r t o f t h e B i g In t e r v i e w segment”. 20 D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i t h y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f e v e n ts ? MR JACKSON: I t d o e s M r C h a ir m a n . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : M r J a c k s o n I o n ly h a v e o n e o r t w o q u e s t io n s r e m a in in g , t h e – y o u s a y a t p a r a g r a p h 6 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t t h a t Tr a n s n e t u l ti m a t e ly s p e n t a t o t a l o f R 2 4 . 8 m i ll io n o n t h e B i g I n t e r v i e w. W a s th e r e e v e r a n y a s s e s s m e n t d o n e o f w h e t h e r t h a t g a v e Page 108 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 Tr a n s n e t v a l u e f o r m o n e y ? MR JACKSON: T h e r e w a s n o a s s e s s m e n t o r e v a l u a t io n d o n e Mr C h a ir m a n s i n c e th e ti m e I h a d b e e n t h e r e a n d l e f t , n o . CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: O v e r w h a t p e r i o d w a s R 2 4 m i ll io n s p e n t ? Fr o m 2 0 11 , Mr C h a ir m a n t o 2 0 1 6 . CHAIRPERSON: S o t h a t ’s – i s t h a t f iv e y e a r s . A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: F iv e y e a r s . S o r o u g h ly, o n a v e r a g e y o u m a y h a v e b e e n s p e n d in g a b o u t w h a t , R 5 m il li o n ? 10 MR JACKSON: Ye s c o r r e c t M r C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: Or just under that. J u s t u n d e r th a t . CHAIRPERSON: J a , o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : A n d M r J a c k s o n , i n y o u r o w n v i e w, d id Tr a n s n e t g e t v a l u e f o r m o n e y ? MR JACKSON: I n m y o w n v ie w, p e r s o n a l v i e w, n o Tr a n s n e t d i d n o t r e c e i v e a n y r e t u r n o n i n v e s t m e n t . I t is – a n d th is i s a n o p i n io n , b a s e d o n w h e r e th e TN A e v e n t u a ll y, fr o m a r e p u t a t i o n p o i n t o f v ie w h a d e n d e d , th e a s s o c ia t io n m o s t d e fi n i t e l y d i d n o t d o u s a n y f a v o u r s . 20 If a n y th in g , i t le d to a n e g a tiv e r e p u ta t i o n a n d o u tl o o k , t h e m e r e association. S o n o , m y a n s w e r t o t h a t w o u ld b e i t d i d n o t r e c e iv e a n y … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: I n i ti a l ly t h e a r r a n g e m e n t o r a g r e e m e n t s w e r e f o r t h r e e m o n th s a t a t i m e i s t h a t r i g h t o r s ix m o n th s ? MR JACKSON: S ix m o n t h s . Page 109 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: Si x m o n t h s ? S ix m o n t h s , y e s Mr C h a ir m a n . There had been a proposal of three months at some s t a g e is n ’ t i t ? MR JACKSON: Ye s I d o b e li e v e in o n e o f t h e e m a i ls t h e y s p e a k a b o u t … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: 10 MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: O r m a y b e d u r i n g th e q u o ta t io n s t a g e . Ye s . S o – b u t it w a s s ix m o n t h s a t a ti m e . T h a t’s c o r r e c t Mr C h a ir. S ta r t i n g fr o m 2 0 11 . 2 0 11 . D o y o u k n o w – d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e th e r t h a t w a s s t a r ti n g f r o m t h e b e g i n n i n g o f 2 0 11 o r fr o m m i d - y e a r ? MR JACKSON: I th i n k i t a c tu a lly s t a r t e d i n A p r i l. CHAIRPERSON: I n A p r i l , o h o k a y. MR JACKSON: B e c a u s e t h e a p p r o v a l w a s th e 2 3 r d s o I t h i n k t h e r e w a s t h e n a r e q u e s t f o r a fl o w - p l a n w h i c h t h e n th e y n e e d e d to t h e n l o o k a t s p a c e a n d h o w i t w o u ld – a n d I’ m u n d e r c o r r e c ti o n b u t t h a t is o r e o r 20 le s s w h e n I e s ti m a t e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : MR JACKSON: In 2012? A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: T h a t w a s in 2 0 1 2 M r J a c k s o n . In 2012 yes sorry in 2012. S o f o r t h is p e r i o d o f f iv e y e a r s w a s t h i s a r r a n g e m e n t Page 110 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 r e n e w e d a t th e e x p ir y o f e v e r y s ix m o n th s fr o m w h e n i t s t a r t e d i n 2 0 1 2 up to when it ended in 2016? MR JACKSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n te r m s o f w h a t Tr a n s n e t w a s a b l e t o p l a c e o n t h e n e w s p a p e r d i d i t , t h r o u g h o u t r e m a i n – d i d t h e p o s i t io n r e m a i n a s t h a t Tr a n s n e t w o u l d j u s t h a v e it s lo g o s o r d i d t h a t c h a n g e a t s o m e stage. MR JACKSON: It d i d n o t c h a n g e M r C h a i r ma n , i t r e m a in e d e x a c t ly t h e s a m e t h r o u g h o u t t h e d u r a ti o n o f … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]. 10 CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: J u s t t o p u t th e ir l o g o s o n . T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir. N o m e s s a g e a t a l l? N o m e s s a g e M r C h a ir, e x a c tl y a s i t w a s . Ye s a n d t h r o u g h o u t t h e p e r i o d w a s th is s p a c e u s e d f o r i n te r v i e w s w i t h m e d i a p e r s o n a li t ie s a s y o u s a y ? MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t . A n d a l l th e t i m e t h e p e r s o n t h a t w o u l d b e i n t e r v ie w e d w a s n o t c h o s e n b y Tr a n s n e t? MR JACKSON: 20 CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: N o M r C h a ir p e r s o n . O r w e r e th e r e ti m e s w h e n Tr a n s n e t c h o s e ? No not that I’m aware, no. D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r t h e y w e r e c o n s u l t e d a b o u t t h e p e r s o n s t o b e p l a c e d … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: I d o n ’ t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w. Page 111 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: I d o n ’ t k n o w, n o s ir. Ye s a n d d i d y o u – w e r e t h e r e a n y p e o p l e fr o m Tr a n s n e t w h o w e r e i n te r v i e w e d o v e r th a t p e r i o d ? MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: A s f a r a s I’ m a w a r e , n o n e . None? None. A n d d i d y o u k e e p a n e y e o n t h i s s p a c e , o n th is n e w s p a p e r o v e r t h a t ti m e t o s e e w h a t w a s c o p i n g u p , n o t n e c e s s a r i ly e v e r y d a y b u t g e n e r a ll y ? 10 MR JACKSON: G e n e r a lly y e s , Mr C h a ir m a n I m a d e i t my p o i n t – e s p e c i a l ly w h e n i t c a m e t o p a y m e n t , r e m e m b e r y o u h a v e t o j u s ti fy t h a t y o u ’r e p a y i n g fo r s e r v i c e s r e n d e r e d , s o I w o u ld i n s is t o n w h a t y o u c a l l a [i n d i s t i n c t ] w h ic h w o u l d b e i n c lu d e d a s p a r t o f t h e i n v o i c e , s o th a t g a v e m e th e a s s u r a n c e t h a t in d e e d , i t w a s p la c e d f o r a n y t h in g e ls e w h ic h w a s t h e a g r e e m e n t b u t t h a t w a s t h e e x t e n t y e s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d w h o m a d e t h e d e c i s io n t o r e n e w e a c h ti m e t h is a r r a n g e m e n t w a s r e n e w e d , w h o ’s d e c i s i o n w a s i t ? MR JACKSON: T h e d e c i s i o n o r th e s ig n i n g , t h e d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i t y w a s Mr B r i a n M o l e fe , t h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e . 20 CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: S o h e w a s t h e o n e t h a t m a d e t h e d e c is i o n ? T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . Ye s w i t h t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f t h e s a m e p e o p l e w h o m a y h a v e r e c o m m e n d e d th e fir s t o n e l ik e M r S ig o n y e l a ? MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: T h e y a l l r e m a i n Mr S i g o n y e l a … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . A l l t h e ir n a m e s a r e t h e r e . Page 112 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 MR JACKSON: J a i t’s c o m p i l e d b y, th a t c h a n g e s b u t i t ’s r e c o m m e n d e d a n d th e n a p p r o v e d . CHAIRPERSON: B u t u lt i m a t e ly t h e p e r s o n t h a t c o u l d s a y s t o p th is o r c o n ti n u e w o u ld h a v e b e e n M r Br ia n M o le f e ? MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: MR JACKSON: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t is c o r r e c t M r C h a i r m a n . Ye s a n d h e n e v e r s a i d s t o p ? No. W h ic h y e a r d i d h e l e a v e Tr a n s n e t t o g o t o E s k o m d o y o u r e m e m b e r o r d i d t h is s t o p a f t e r h e h a d l e f t Tr a n s n e t ? 10 MR JACKSON: I t s t il l c o n t i n u e d , i t w a s – I b e li e v e it w a s 2 0 1 4 o r 2 0 1 5 M r C h a ir m a n , s o I’ m a l m o s t – n o I t h i n k i ts 2 0 1 5 t h a t h e h a d le f t f o r Es k o m a n d t h e n r a n u n ti l 2 0 1 6 a n d t h e n e n d e d , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll it ’s i n t e r e s t in g m a y b e M r Br ia n M o le f e w il l c o m e h e r e a n d e x p l a i n th is a n d m a y b e h e w il l m a k e u s s e e w h a t w e c a n ’ t s e e n o w i n t e r m s o f w h a t v a lu e g o t fr o m t h is w h e n i t w a s p a y i n g s o m u c h m o n e y b u t I c a n ’ t s a y I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r e v id e n c e t h a t’s b e e n g iv e n i n t h is C o m m i s s i o n t h a t w a s g iv e n in th is C o m m is s i o n b y M r J o n a s . Mr J o n a s g a v e e v i d e n c e a n d p a r t o f th e e v i d e n c e h e g a v e w a s t h e h e h a d a m e e t in g w i th o n e o f th e G u p t a b r o t h e r s a t t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e in 20 S a x o n w o ld o n O c t o b e r 2 3 , 2 0 1 5 a n d o n e o f t h e t h i n g s h e s a y s , t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r t h a t w a s th e r e t o l d h i m is t h a t h e g a v e h i c e r t a i n n a m e s o f p e o p l e th a t h e s a i d a r e w o r k in g w i t h t h e m , w i t h t h e G u p ta s , a n d h e s a i d – M r J o n a s s a i d th e G u p t a b r o t h e r t h a t w a s i n t h a t m e e ti n g t o l d him that those people were safe, nobody could touch them because t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g w i th t h e m a n d M r B r i a n M o le f e w a s o n e o f t h e n a m e s Page 113 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t h a t w a s g iv e n t h e r e . I m e n t i o n t h is f o r t h e l e g a l t e a m ’s r e c o ll e c ti o n a s w e ll . A n o th e r p e r s o n w h o w a s m e n ti o n e d w a s Ms Ly n n e B r o w n , w e h e a r d e v id e n c e e a r li e r o n a b o u t E s k o m a n d M r Ts o ts i h a v i n g c e r ta in in t e r a c ti o n s w it h Ms L y n n e B r o w n a n d w i t h M r To n y G u p ta . S o m a y b e M r M o le f e w i ll c o m e a n d w ill e x p l a i n t h i s a n d m a y b e w e w il l a l l s e e w h a t w e c a n ’ t s e e n o w b u t t h e r e is th a t e v id e n c e th a t h a s b e e n p l a c e d b e f o r e m e b y M r J o n a s t o s a y, t h is i s w h a t h e w a s t o l d b y o n e o f t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s o n t h e 2 3 r d o f O c t o b e r, t h a t, e ffe c t iv e l y t h e y w e r e lo o k in g a f t e r M r B r i a n M o l e fe a n d t h a t n o b o d y w o u ld to u c h h i m a n d o f 10 c o u r s e w e d o k n o w t h a t h e w e n t fr o m Tr a n s n e t h e w e n t t o E s k o m a n d j a o k a y. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Thank you. A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : C h a i r I s e e t h a t w e a r e a t s ix p a s t o n e , I h a v e n o f u r th e r q u e s t io n s fo r M r J a c k s o n I w o u l d j u s t l ik e t o c h e c k w h e t h e r t h e r e ’s a n y p r o s p e c t o f u s s i t ti n g l a te t o d a y ju s t b e c a u s e i t w il l i m p a c t o n o u r a r r a n g e m e n ts w i t h o t h e r w it n e s s e s . CHAIRPERSON: J a I th in k it ’s g o o d y o u r a i s e i t . No there isn’t a c h a n c e o f s i tt i n g l a t e t o d a y b u t w e c a n d o o n e o f tw o th in g s , w e c a n 20 fi n d a d a te n e x t w e e k o r w e c a n – I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r M s H o f m e y r s a id s h e w o u l d b e a b l e t o m a k e u s e o f Tu e s d a y t h e 4 t h b u t i f Tu e s d a y t h e 4 t h is a v a il a b l e w e c o u l d u s e Tu e s d a y t h e 4 t h o r w e c o u l d fi n d a d a t e i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r o r e v e n d u r i n g th e [ in d is ti n c t ] t w o w e e k s t h a t w e h a v e g o t , s o – b u t i f t h e o t h e r d a y s a r e f u l l w e c o u ld tr y a n d u s e t h e n e x t a v a i la b le b u s i n e s s d a y. Page 114 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V M I C H A E L M B I K I WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, w e w il l u s e t h e l u n c h b r e a k t o s p e a k t o th e w i t n e s s e s a n d e a c h o t h e r a n d r e v e r t a f te r t h e lu n c h . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr ig h t I t h i n k i n t h e a ft e r n o o n w e m a y h a v e t o s t o p m a y b e a t a b o u t q u a r te r to f o u r o r 4 o ’ c l o c k I ’ m n o t s u r e b u t t h a t ’s fi n e . S o w e w il l a d j o u r n f o r lu n c h a n d w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t t e n p a s t t w o , w e adjourn. INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I th o u g h t I h a d s a id w e w o u ld r e s u m e a t t w o o ’ c l o c k b u t h e te ll s m e I s a i d q u a r t e r p a s t a n d o n e o f m y p r o te c t o r s is c o r r o b o r a t in g h i m . S o I w a s h o p i n g to g e t c o r r o b o r a t io n fr o m y o u b u t I am told you were not sure? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w e r e n o t . W e a l l I th i n k t h o u g h t li k e y o u i t w a s t w o o ’c lo c k C h a i r b u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e l l I t h o u g h t I s a id t e n p a s t t w o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Okay because when we… A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Br o k e u p it w a s a f t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t w a s a b i t b e y o n d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ja it was beyond. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . Page 115 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y d e n i e d t h e y s a i d I s a id q u a r t e r p a s t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Okay are you ready? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e i n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: C h a ir if I may ju s t deal w i th some h o u s e k e e p i n g m a t t e r s b e f o r e w e s w e a r M r P h a t la n e o u r n e x t w i t n e s s i n b e c a u s e i t j u s t r e l a te s t o t h e a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r th e r e m a i n d e r o f t h e a ft e r n o o n . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e u s e d t h e lu n c h b r e a k t o t a lk t o M r Mkhwanazi. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o i s o u r s e c o n d w i t n e s s a f t e r M r P h a tl a n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e f o u r t h w i t n e s s fo r t o d a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e p o s i ti o n i s a s f o ll o w s . W e t h i n k i t is u n li k e ly w e w il l s t a r t M r M k h w a n a z i t o d a y b e c a u s e g iv e n t h e s l ig h tl y 20 e a r l ie r f in is h t i m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w i ll c o m f o r t a b ly c o m p l e te w e h o p e M r P h a tl a n e ’s e v id e n c e b u t a r e u n li k e ly t o s ta r t M r M k h w a n a z i. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: So we would Page 116 of 187 need to reschedule Mr 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M k h w a n a z i ’s e v id e n c e . W e h a v e h a d d is c u s s io n s . O u r p r o p o s a l a t t h e m o m e n t i s t h a t d a te o f th e 4 Fe b r u a r y w e d i d fil l w i t h a c t u a l ly th e la s t TNA witness. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o c o m e s fr o m t h e a v ia t io n s id e , M r K o n a . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t h a s a lr e a d y b e e n s e t u p . B u t w e t h i n k t h a t i t is v e r y p o s s ib le t h a t in t h e c o u r s e o f th e th r e e w e e k s o f a v i a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e i s a n o p e n i n g s o m e w h e r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o w e h a v e e n g a g e d w i t h M r M h k w a n a z i h e h a s g e n e r a l a v a il a b i li ty o v e r th a t p e r io d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H e h a s g iv e n u s a f e w d a t e s w h i c h w i ll n o t w o r k for him. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o o u r p r o p o s a l i s w i th s o m e w a r n i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : To h i m w h e n w e s e e a n o p e n i n g a r is i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e c a n b e i n t o u c h a n d h e h a s v e r y k in d l y in d i c a t e d t h a t h e s h o u l d b e a b l e to r e tu r n f o r th a t e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : To fi t i n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . Page 117 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e t h e n . T h a t i s f i n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d in t h e li g h t o f t h a t i f w e c o u l d a s k th a t h e b e r e le a s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f t h e a f t e r n o o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s h e is r e le a s e d . T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I c o u l d t h e n a s k f o r M r P h a t la n e to b e s w o r n 10 in ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R P H AT L A N E: M y n a m e i s D a n i e l K a g is o P h a t la n e . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . [ i n d is ti n c t ] a ffir m a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s m a k e s u r e i t is a n a ffir m a t i o n i f t h e w i tn e s s w a n ts a n a ffi r m a ti o n . R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ? M R P H AT L A N E: M y n a m e i s D a n i e l K a g is o P h a t la n e . 20 REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n in m a k i n g th e p r e s c r ib e d a ffir m a t i o n ? M R P H AT L A N E: N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u s o le m n ly a ff ir m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w il l g i v e s h a l l b e th e tr u th , t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o p le a s e r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u ly a ffi r m . Page 118 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R P H AT L A N E: I t r u ly a ffir m . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r P h a t la n e ’s s t a te m e n t a n d r e l e v a n t a n n e x u r e s to i t a n d o t h e r d o c u m e n ts a r e c o n t a i n e d i n w h a t w e propose be marked Exhibit MM4. If we could have that entered into the record? C H A I R P E R S O N : M r D a n i e l K a g is o P h a t l a n e ’s s t a t e m e n t a n d a n n e x u r e s t h e r e t o w il l b e a d m i t t e d a n d m a r k e d E x h i b i t M M 4 a n d t h e le v e r a r c h f il e in w h ic h th e y a r e c o n t a i n e d w i ll b e m a r k e d a c c o r d i n g ly a s w e ll . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr P h a tl a n e i n fr o n t o f y o u y o u h a v e t h a t e x h i b i t i n a fi le . I d o n o t a c t u a ll y e n v i s a g e b a r r in g o n o n e o c c a s i o n m o v i n g t o o th e r fi le s . S o y o u c a n k e e p t h a t i n fr o n t o f y o u . A n d I w il l m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o it th r o u g h o u t a n d y o u w il l lo o k a t th e t o p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r f o r th e p a g e n u m b e r s t h a t I r e fe r t o i n th e c o u r s e o f th e e v i d e n c e . I f I c o u l d t a k e y o u t h e n t o p a g e 1 o f t h a t fi le . Yo u w i ll s e e I th i n k y o u a r e a t a n i n d e x p a g e . I f y o u j u s t o v e r a n d l o o k f o r p a g e 1 a t th e t o p . C a n y o u t e l l u s w h a t t h a t d o c u m e n t is ? M R P H AT L A N E: I t is m y s t a t e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 Thank you. A n d w a s t h a t p r o v i d e d to th e c o m m i s s io n ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s I d id it . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c o u ld y o u g o o v e r t o p a g e 7 o f t h e s a m e Exhibit MM4. C a n y o u c o n f ir m w h e th e r t h a t is y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n th e page? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s i t i s m y s i g n a t u r e . Page 119 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r P h a tl a n e I a m n e x t g o in g to a s k w h e t h e r y o u c o n f ir m th e c o n t e n t s o f t h is s t a te m e n t a s b e i n g tr u e a n d c o r r e c t b u t b e fo r e I d o t h a t y o u d i d a l e r t m e t h is m o r n i n g t o th e f a c t t h e r e is a p a r t ic u l a r c o r r e c ti o n y o u w o u l d lik e t o m a k e i n r e s p e c t o f p a r a g r a p h 6 . B u t i t i s a c o r r e c t i o n th a t r e q u ir e s q u i t e a n e x p l a n a ti o n . S o m y s u g g e s t io n M r P h a t l a n e i s w h e n y o u c o n f ir m t h e c o r r e c t n e s s w e note that you are going to make a change to paragraph 6 and when we g e t to t h a t i n th e e v i d e n c e y o u w il l g i v e y o u r a c c o u n t o f w h e r e t h e change occurs. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u c o m f o r t a b l e w i th t h a t ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o i f y o u w il l ju s t i n d ic a te w h e t h e r y o u c o n fir m t h e c o n t e n ts b u t f o r p a r a g r a p h 6 w h ic h w e w il l d e a l w i t h i n due course? M R P H AT L A N E : I d o C h a ir p e r s o n I d o c o n f ir m t h e s t a te m e n t a s t r u e w i t h t h e c h a n g e s t h a t I w i ll m a k e o n p a r a g r a p h 6 . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . M r P h a t la n e l e t u s s t a r t i f w e m a y 20 w i t h s o m e b a c k g r o u n d . C a n y o u p le a s e t e l l t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h e n y o u fir s t jo i n e d Tr a n s n e t a n d i n w h a t p o s i t io n a n d t h e n t a k e u s t h r o u g h y o u r p r o g r e s s i o n i n t h e o r g a n is a ti o n ? M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n I j o i n e d Tr a n s n e t i n 2 0 11 A u g u s t 1 6 fr o m t h e r e – f o r D e p a r t m e n t o f E d u c a t io n . I w a s g iv e n t h e p o s i t io n o f S e n i o r C o o r d in a to r S t a k e h o l d e r R e la t io n s . I h a v e b e e n i n t h a t p o s it i o n f o r Page 120 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 lo n g u n t il 2 0 1 8 th a t is w h e n I g o t p r o m o t e d to b e a s e n io r m a n a g e r S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s . A n d I a m c u r r e n t ly s t il l o n t h a t p o s i ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o d i d y o u r e p o r t t o i n t h a t p e r io d 2 0 11 u n t il 2 0 1 7 ? M R P H AT L A N E: I r e p o r t e d t o t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r M b o n is o S i g o n y e l a . CHAIRPERSON: W h e n w e – I a m s o r r y w h e n w e – w h e n t h e w i tn e s s w h o p r e c e d e d y o u g a v e e v id e n c e I m a y b e h a v e b e e n m i s ta k e n b u t I t h o u g h t M r Si g o n y e l a ’s f ir s t n a m e w a s M b o n is e . M R P H AT L A N E: M b o n is o . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : It is M b o n is o ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: S o i f I M b o n is e e i th e r I s a w s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s n o t t h e r e o r s o m e b o d y m i g h t h a v e t h o u g h t i t is M b o n is e . M R P H AT L A N E: I t h in k … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o r r e c t o n e is M b o n i s o . M R P H AT L A N E: I t m i g h t b e o n ly w r i t t e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d e r r o r. M R P H AT L A N E: I t is M b o n is o . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s o k a y. I do not know if anybody had picked a n y th in g l ik e th a t th a t t h e r e w a s a n I a t t h e e n d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a i r w e w il l c e r ta i n ly c h e c k i t if I ju s t g o t h r o u g h t h e b u n d l e in fr o n t o f m e c e r t a i n l y w h e n e v e r h e i s s i g n in g o ff on… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e v a r io u s m e m o r a n d a i t i s M b o n is o . Page 121 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: J a it m a y b e t h a t i t is – i t w a s a n e m a i l fr o m s o m e b o d y e ls e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n . Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o t fr o m h i m . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e w ill ju s t h a v e a l o o k f o r i t s o w e c a n l o c a te 10 it . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t s o M r P h a t la n e y o u w e r e e x p l a i n in g b e t w e e n 2 0 11 a n d 2 0 1 7 y o u r e p o r t e d t o Ms S ig o n y e l a , is t h a t r i g h t ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e n in 2 0 1 7 t o c u r r e n t I a m r e p o r t in g u n d e r G e n e r a l M a n a g e r M r L e k h e t h e , M o la t w a n e L ik h e th e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is L - i - k - h - e - t- h - e . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s L - i C H A I R P E R S O N : L ik h e t h e . L - i M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Molatwane. M R P H AT L A N E: M o la t w a n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : M- o - l- a - t- w - a - n - e . O k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. A n d c a n y o u e x p l a in to th e c o m m i s s io n a n d th e C h a ir w h a t y o u r r o le w a s h o l d in g t h a t p o s i ti o n in S t a k e h o l d e r R e l a ti o n s ? Page 122 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R P H AT LA N E : W e l l C h a ir p e r s o n a s a c o o r d i n a t o r my r e s p o n s ib il i ty w a s t o a s s i s t t h e – t h e G M i n te r ms o f m a k in g s u r e t h a t w e b u i ld r e l a ti o n s – w e h e lp e d Tr a n s n e t to b u il d i t – i t is s t a k e h o ld e r r e l a ti o n s a n d a ls o t o d r i v e t h o u g h t le a d e r s h i p b y e n g a g i n g a n d i n fo r m i n g o u r c r i ti c a l s ta k e h o l d e r s . S o i d e a lly w e w il l c o m e u p w i t h p la t f o r m s s o w e t h i n k w e n e e d t o b e a b l e t o in v i t e c e r t a i n s t a k e h o l d e r s s o t h a t w e c a n e i t h e r b e a b le t o i n f o r m t h e m o r p u r s u e d t h e m o r j u s t g iv e t h e m in f o r m a ti o n a b o u t Tr a n s n e t j u s t s o t h a t w e a r e b u il d in g t h a t r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h th e m . A n d w e ll t h e r e w e r e o t h e r r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s s o – s u c h a s th e 10 la n g u a g e u n it w h ic h c a m e l a t e r a n d a ls o a s s is t i n g i n o th e r a c tiv i ti e s w i t h i n th e d e p a r t m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d i d s p o n s o r s h i p s a n d d o n a t io n s f a ll w it h in y o u r a r e a o f r e s p o n s i b i li t y ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n p a r t o f it i t w a s m a k i n g s u r e t h a t w e – I p r o c e s s t h e s p o n s o r s h i p s o n b e h a l f o f th e G C E b e c a u s e t h a t m a n d a t e w a s n o t d i r e c t ly w i t h i n th e G M . I t w a s a m a n d a te t h a t w a s a t t h e le v e l o f a G C E . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d is G C E – c a n y o u e x p l a i n t o u s w h a t th a t stands for? 20 M R P H AT L A N E: G C E w i ll r e f e r t o G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u ti v e . To s a y t h e b u d g e t r e g a r d i n g s p o n s o r s h i p s t h e y w e r e s it t in g w i t h t h e G C E ’s o ff ic e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. A n d w h a t w o u l d th e o r d in a r y p r o c e s s b e f o r a p p r o v a l o f s p o n s o r s h ip s ? M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n o r d in a r il y w h a t w ill h a p p e n is t h a t a n in t e r e s t – a p a r ty w it h a n in t e r e s t w i ll s e n d a p r o p o s a l t o Tr a n s n e t t o Page 123 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 s a y, w e w i ll w i s h Tr a n s n e t t o s p o n s o r a c o u r s e t h a t t h e – a c o u r s e t h a t t h e y a r e i n t e r e s te d i n . A n d w e w i ll l o o k a t i t w h e th e r i t is i n li n e w i t h t h e d r a f t s p o n s o r s h i p a n d d o n a ti o n p o li c y t o s a y, is th is c o u r s e p a r t o f w h a t w e c a n s u p p o r t ? A n d t h e n w e w il l t h e n r e q u e s t – d o w h a t w e c a l l d u e d i li g e n c e . R e q u e s t t o c h e c k i f i t i s le g i t i m a te – d o t h e y h a v e a b a n k a c c o u n t a n d a l l t h a t a n d t h e y w i ll s e n d t h o s e d o c u m e n t s s o t h a t y o u s e e t h a t h e r e y o u a r e d e a l in g w it h a c o m p a n y t h a t is e x is t in g a n d t h a t is l e g i ti m a t e a n d w h a t t h e y w a n t i t is – i t m a k e s s e n s e a n d i t w il l h e l p Tr a n s n e t b e c a u s e i f i t i s a s p o n s o r s h i p i t is d i ff e r e n t fr o m i f i t i s a 10 d o n a ti o n . I f i t i s a d o n a t io n w e w il l p u t t h a t m o n e y – th e r e is n o t m u c h a tt a c h m e n t is t h a t w e b e li e v e i n w h a t e v e r o b j e c ti v e y o u w a n t t o d o y o u c a n g o a h e a d , h e r e is o u r s u p p o r t . w a n t b e n e fi ts . B u t i f i t i s a s p o n s o r s h i p w e w i ll W h a t i s i t th a t i s i n f o r Tr a n s n e t? A n d t h e n w e w il l a s s e s s i f t h e s e b e n e fi t s a r e i n li n e w i t h w h a t w e w a n t a n d w h a t is i t t h a t w e w a n t t o a c h ie v e w i t h t h a t p a r ti c u l a r s p o n s o r s h i p ? S o a ft e r t h a t a m e m o r a n d u m t h e n w i ll b e g e n e r a t e d t o – t o t h e G M w h o w a s t h e o n e w h o w i ll a p p r o v e d e p e n d i n g o n t h e a m o u n t. If it i s w i th in h i s D O A i t w i ll b e a p p r o v e d t h e n a n d th e r e a n d th e n w e w il l e x e c u t e a n d s e e t o i t t h a t t h is – w h a t e v e r t h a t h a s b e e n p r o m i s e d i n th e p r o p o s a l o r i n t h e 20 m e m o r a n d u m w e g e t a s Tr a n s n e t. A n d – b u t i f i t i s b e y o n d t h e – h is D O A h e w i ll p u s h th a t i t g o e s t o t h e n e x t p e r s o n w h o h a s a D O A . M o r e o ft e n b e c a u s e t h e b u d g e t o f t h e s p o n s o r s h ip … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e D O A b e i n g D e l e g a t io n o f A u th o r i ty. M R P H AT L A N E : O h s o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n . D e l e g a ti o n o f A u th o r i ty. Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n i t r e f e r s t o S o r r y. Page 124 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . Ye s c o n ti n u e . M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s . T h e n i t g e ts a p p r o v e d . O n c e i t i s a p p r o v e d w e w i ll p r e p a r e a c o n tr a c t n o w s o t h a t t h e p a r ty th a t h a s r e q u e s t e d t h is s p o n s o r s h i p w i ll t h e n s ig n o ff t o s a y, t h i s i s w h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o g i v e Tr a n s n e t a n d t h is is w h a t Tr a n s n e t is g o i n g t o d o . T h e n th e p r o c e s s e s o f p a y m e n t w il l fo ll o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u M r P h a tl a n e . I w o u ld l ik e t o ta k e y o u to t h e r e le v a n t D e l e g a ti o n s o f A u t h o r i t y t h a t o p e r a t e d o v e r t h e p e r i o d o f ti m e t h a t w e a r e i n t e r e s te d i n i n Tr a n s n e t . B e c a u s e t h e r e is 10 a n i m p o r ta n t r e s p e c t i n w h i c h t h e D e l e g a t i o n o f A u t h o r i t y c h a n g e d a t a p o i n t i n ti m e a n d I a m g o i n g t o l in k t h a t b a c k t o t h e e v i d e n c e a s w e g o t h r o u g h i t . S o i f w e c a n j u s t s t a r t w i th t h e 2 0 11 D e le g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i ty a n d y o u w il l f i n d t h a t i n y o u r b u n d l e Ex h i b i t M M 4 a t p a g e 11 3 . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w h i le w e d o i n g t h a t I w a n t e d e a r l ie r o n t o a s k y o u t o g iv e m e a fe w o f Tr a n s n e t ’s s t a k e h o ld e r s t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t s p o n s o r s h i p s a t th a t ti m e w h e n y o u j o i n e d ? M R P H AT L A N E: W h e n I jo i n e d fo r – a lr e a d y Tr a n s n e t w a s s p o n s o r in g N a t io n a l A r ts F e s t iv a l . W e – w e w i ll g o d u r i n g th a t f e s ti v a l a n d b r a n d . T h e r e w a s a – t h e r e i s a n a r e a c a ll e d – i t i s a s t a d i u m lik e w h e r e y o u 20 w i ll h a v e t h i s – th e a c ti v i ty i s h a p p e n i n g th e r e . We own the naming r ig h ts t h e r e . It w a s c a l le d a Tr a n s n e t Vi ll a g e – Tr a n s n e t G r e e n Vil l a g e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT LA N E : S o w e w i ll b r a n d a r o u n d t h e r e . W e w i ll h a v e – w e h a d a k io s k w h e r e w e w i ll g iv e p e o p l e t h e – w h a t e v e r t h a t – t h e b r a n d e d m a t e r i a ls t h a t w e h a v e . W h e t h e r i t is b a g s , w h e t h e r i t is w h a t e v e r s o Page 125 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t h a t a s t h e y b u y a r o u n d t h e r e t h e s e s m a l l i t e m s t h e y w il l b e w a l k i n g – t h e y w il l b e m o v in g a r o u n d w i t h a Tr a n s n e t b r a n d e d s o y o u k i n d o f p u t y o u r c o m p a n y ’s b r a n d o u t th e r e s o th a t p e o p l e c a n r e m e m b e r th a t w h i le t h e r e is S t a n d a r d B a n k a l s o b e in g a s p o n s o r o n t h i s s id e b u t w e – w e w e r e a ls o o n t h is s i d e s o t h a t w e k i n d o f c o m p e t i n g f o r t h e s a m e s p a c e . B e c a u s e t h e s a m e e n v ir o n m e n t t h e y h a v e g o t m o r e p la c e s t h a t th e y a r e s p o n s o r i n g b u t w e h a v e g o t o n l y t h e Vi ll a g e w h ic h w e n e e d t o m a k e sure that people do not remember Standard Bank but remember Tr a n s n e t . S o i t is o n e o f t h o s e . Th e n w e w il l in v i t e o u r s ta k e h o l d e r s . 10 W e w il l d e c i d e t o s a y, s in c e w e h a v e g o t a p r e s e n c e t h e r e t h is y e a r w h o c a n w e t a k e a r o u n d t h e r e to g o a n d s e e t h e a c ti v a t io n o f – o f a b r a n d i n a p a r t ic u l a r – o r w h e n y o u a r e s u p p o r ti n g a p a r t ic u l a r c a u s e . S o w e w i ll t a k e e i t h e r o u r B o a r d m e m b e r s t o s a y o k a y t h i s y e a r l e t u s t a k e a b o u t f iv e o r s ix o f o u r B o a r d m e m b e r s th a t t h e y b e t h e r e a n d f e e l t h e e x p e r ie n c e . O r w e c o u ld t a k e c u s t o m e r s a n d id e n ti fy w h i c h customers do we think they need to be there and see – see the e x p e r i e n c e – o r e x p e r i e n c e Tr a n s n e t b e i n g t h e r e a n d th e b r a n d b e in g o u t t h e r e . S o it d e p e n d e d – i t d e p e n d e d o n t h e k i n d o f t h e a c t iv i t y o r c a u s e t h a t w e w e r e s u p p o r t in g . Yo u w i ll h a v e N e d b a n k . N e d b a n k w i ll 20 t a k e o u r c u s to m e r s t h e r e t h e N e d b a n k G o l f C h a ll e n g e . W e w il l ta k e o u r c u s t o m e r s th e r e s o t h a t t h e r e i s t h is i n te r a c ti o n b e t w e e n c e r t a i n s e n io r m a n a g e r s o r c e r t a i n m a n a g e r s o f Tr a n s n e t w i t h c e r ta i n c u s t o m e r s s o t h a t t h e y c a n b e – d i s c u s s c r i t ic a l is s u e s t h a t n e e d t o b e – t o – w h e r e t h e y n e e d t o a l ig n o r w h e r e t h e y n e e d t o u n l o c k c h a ll e n g e s . S o i t w i ll w o r k k in d o f lik e t h a t . Page 126 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I c a n u n d e r s t a n d c o m p l e t e ly i n th e c a s e o f S t a n d a r d B a n k o r N e d b a n k a n d s o o n th e m g e t ti n g i n v o lv e d l ik e th a t t o p r o m o te t h e m s e lv e s b e c a u s e t h e y m a y b e w a n ti n g t h a t t h e p e o p l e c o m e t o t h a t e v e n t . T h e y t h in k a b o u t S t a n d a r d B a n k a n d N e d b a n k a n d m a y b e they could open an account with them and so on. I am not sure that I c a n u n d e r s t a n d w h y Tr a n s n e t w o u ld d o a n y t h i n g li k e th a t f o r a n y p u r p o s e o t h e r t h a n i f i t is a d o n a ti o n , h e l p i n g s o m e b o d y ’ c a u s e t h a t i s considered to be a worthy cause. But I am not sure that I understand a l l o f t h a t a n d I m a y b e m is s i n g s o m e t h in g a n d I w o u ld l ik e y o u t o 10 a s s is t m e . M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e s p o n s e – o n e r e s p o n s i b i li t y o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n is t o b u i l d t h e b r a n d I t h i n k w h i c h w a s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly d ir e c t ly l in k e d t o w h a t I w a s d o i n g b u t t h e y k i n d o f in t e r li n k . b u il d in g th e b r a n d . Yo u Yo u w a n t p e o p le t o a s s o c i a t e w it h t h e b r a n d . W h i l e y o u a r e d o in g t h a t b r a n d i n g e x e r c i s e t h e r e a r e o t h e r b e n e fi ts t h a t c o m e s w it h th a t s p o n s o r s h i p w h i c h … CHAIRPERSON: Such as? M R P H AT L A N E: S u c h a s y o u g e t a p l a t fo r m . Let me give you an example of – of Nedbank. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : N e d b a n k I w il l u n d e r s t a n d . M R P H AT L A N E: Yo u w i ll u n d e r s t a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t is Tr a n s n e t a n d t h a t … M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d E s k o m t h a t – I t h i n k I a m s tr u g g li n g a b o u t . M R P H AT L A N E: L e t m e s a y … Page 127 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t le t u s t a l k a b o u t Tr a n s n e t b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e r e y o u c o m in g fr o m . M R P H AT L A N E: J a I a m l o o k – I j u s t w a n t to – C h a ir t o c l a r i f y t h e li n k a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. M R P H AT L A N E: T h e li n k a g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . M R P H AT L A N E: T h e li n k a g e w it h a p a r ti c u l a r b r a n d . CHAIRPERSON: Start with – start with Nedbank or Standard Bank and 10 t h e n w e c a n t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is o k a y. M R P H AT L A N E : N e d b a n k w i ll c r e a t e a p l a tf o r m t o s a y, h e r e is a b r a n d t h a t e v e r y o n e w il l c o m e h e r e . N o w d i ff e r e n t c o m p a n ie s , d i ff e r e n t b r a n d s w i ll s a y, th is is a n o p p o r tu n i t y f o r u s t o b e – i f w e p o s i ti o n o u r s e lv e s i n t h i s b e c a u s e th e r e is t h i s k i n d o f p e o p l e t h a t c o m e s h e r e w h o a r e a s s o c i a t e d t o o u r b r a n d . N o w if w e b u y f o r i n s t a n c e a m a r q u e a n d b e p a r t o f t h a t i t w i ll – it w i ll h e lp u s t o b e a b l e t o g e t t h o s e c r i ti c a l s t a k e h o ld e r s b e c a u s e w e w i ll t h e n i n v i t e t h e m i n t o o u r m a r q u e s o th a t 20 t h e r e is d i s c u s s io n s . I f t h e b r a n d i s b i g g e r i t is N e d b a n k G o l f C h a ll e n g e b u t w e a ls o h a v e s til l s o m e s m a ll b r a n d s in th e r e t h a t a r e tr y i n g to u t il is e o r to e x p l o i t th e b ig g e r o p p o r t u n i ty. S o – a ls o w i th N a t io n a l Ar ts F e s ti v a l . I t w i ll o p e n u p t o c o m p a n i e s to s a y, h e r e is a n o p p o r t u n i ty w e a r e g iv in g y o u s o m a n y p e o p l e c o m i n g t o t h i s p l a c e w h o is e n tr u s t e d t o b e a b le t o t a p i n t o t h e s e p e o p le c o m i n g th e r e . T h e n a s Page 128 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a n o r g a n is a t i o n l ik e Tr a n s n e t w i ll s i t d o w n a n d s a y, l o o k s o m e o f o u r c u s t o m e r s th e y g o th e r e . S o m e o f o u r – le t m e s a y s t a k e h o ld e r s t h e y go there. Why do we not increase our presence because we want to be a s s o c i a t e d w i t h c e r t a i n b r a n d s o r w it h c e r t a i n p l a tf o r m s t h a t a r e b e i n g c r e a te d fr o m s t a k e h o l d e r p o i n t o f v i e w a n d a ls o fr o m b r a n d a c ti v a t io n ? S o w e w il l c h o o s e t h o s e p l a t f o r m s o r th o s e e v e n ts t h a t w e th i n k t h e y w i ll – t h a t w e th in k t h e y w i ll a d d v a l u e to t h e o r g a n is a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a y o u s e e w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t a p r iv a te – w e l l I s a y p r i v a t e c o m p a n y m a y b e e v e n i f i t is n o t a p r iv a te c o m p a n y if i t is a 10 c o m p a n y th a t m a y b e n e e d s t o h a v e c u s t o m e r s , n e e d s t o h a v e c l i e n ts t o m a k e b u s i n e s s t o m a k e p r o fi ts o r t o s e ll s o m e t h i n g fo r m e t h a t b r a n d i n g id e a fi t s in v e r y n ic e ly. I c a n u n d e r s ta n d i t . So when it comes to Tr a n s n e t I a m s a y i n g t o m y s e l f , s o w h a t i s th e a c t u a l ta n g i b l e b e n e f i t f o r t h e m o n e y t h e y w o u l d b e s p e n d in g o n t h o s e k i n d s o f e v e n t s ? M R P H AT L A N E: I a g r e e C h a ir p e r s o n t o s a y Tr a n s n e t d e a l s w i th b u s i n e s s t o b u s in e s s y o u k n o w i t is n o t b u s in e s s t o c o n s u m e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT LA N E : W h ic h y o u w il l f in d t h a t t h o s e t h a t a r e – t h e y d e a l w i t h c o n s u m e r s th e y w i ll p u t m o n e y. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E : W e – t h a t is w h y w e – d u r i n g t h a t ti m e Tr a n s n e t w a s n o t y o u k n o w p u t ti n g a l o t o f m o n e y in t e r m s o f b r a n d i n g . W e w il l u s e t h o s e p la t f o r m s b e c a u s e if y o u l o o k a t t h e s p e n d in g t h e n i t w a s n o t a s s t e e p a s th o s e c o m p a n ie s y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t t h a t w e r e p a y in g . W e w e r e n o t f o r in s t a n c e w e w e r e d o i n g a b o v e th e li n e a d v e r ti s i n g . Page 129 of 187 We 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 w e r e r e ly in g o n b e l o w th e l i n e a d v e r ti s i n g w h ic h i s th is … e w e r e r e ly i n g o n b e l o w t h e li n e a d v e r t is i n g w h ic h is t h is … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t k i n d a m o u n t fo r e x a m p l e ? I k n o w Ms H o f m e y r I a m t a k i n g y o u o ff . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o n o t a t a l l C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h is . M R P H AT L A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n I m ig h t n o t b e a g u r u o n a d v e r tis i n g b u t I k n o w t h a t i f w e w e r e t o c a lc u la t e f o r in s t a n c e t h e a m o u n t t h a t y o u p u t f o r b i ll b o a r d s a n d T V i t i s w a y a b o v e R 1 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 o n a c a m p a i g n s o w e 10 a r e n o t – w e a r e n o t d o i n g t h o s e . A n d w h e n I j o i n e d Tr a n s n e t I f o u n d that they were not doing those kind of campaigns. w h a t w e c a ll P R . Th e y w e r e d o i n g This small way you see an event and you – you p a r t n e r w it h t h e m a n d t h e n tr y t o g e t v a l u e o u t o f t h a t in s t e a d o f g o in g o n T V a n d o n b i ll b o a r d s b e c a u s e i t is e x p e n s i v e . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l y o u s e e i f w e w e r e d o a d v e r ti s i n g f o r t h e c o m m i s s io n – a d v e r t is i n g I a m p u t t in g it i n q u o t e s t h e p u r p o s e w o u l d b e t o m a k e s u r e th a t w e a t tr a c t p e o p l e w h o c a n c o m e t o t h e c o m m is s i o n and g iv e a in v e s t i g a t io n . 20 lot of important i n f o r m a ti o n for purposes of our W i t h – w it h Tr a n s n e t th a t e x p o s u r e t h a t i t w a s s e e k in g w a s g o i n g to h e l p i t g e t w h a t? M R P H AT L A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n i t i s m u l t i- fo l d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E : R e m e m b e r Tr a n s n e t a s b ig a s i t is it h a s s ti ll t o – h a s a r e s p o n s i b ili t y t o r e c r u i t t h e r ig h t p e o p l e . N o w t h e r i g h t m in d s , th e r ig h t t a l e n t t h e y – t h e y w a n t t o g o t o o r g a n is a ti o n s t h a t t h e y t h i n k a r e Page 130 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 top. Tr a n s n e t a ls o d e a ls w i t h c o m m u n it i e s w h e r e w e n e e d t o s u p p o r t c o m m u n i ti e s in t e r m s o f o u r c i tiz e n s h i p r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s . N o w y o u h a v e g o t a r e s p o n s i b ili t y a l s o t h e b u il d th e b r a n d t h a t it is k n o w n s o t h a t th e p e o p l e t h a t y o u a ls o s e r v i n g i t is n o t o n l y s e r v in g c u s t o m e r s i t h a s a r e s p o n s i b i li ty w i t h in t h e c o m m u n i ti e s . N o w o u r r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s t o b u il d t h a t b r a n d t o b e s e e n a s a b r a n d e i th e r t h a t is v i b r a n t. A b r a n d t h a t is c u r r e n t. A b r a n d t h a t i s t o p ic a l . I t is p a r t o f c o m m u n i c a t io n s r o l e a ls o t o d o t h a t. W h i le I d o u n d e r s t a n d th a t w e m ig h t n o t b e l ik e c o m p a n ie s t h a t d e a l w i t h c u s t o m e r s , d ir e c t b u s i n e s s t o c o n s u m e r s d ir e c tl y. 10 Our a p p r o a c h w o u l d b e d i ff e r e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w e w i ll a c t u a ll y i n t h e c o u r s e o f Mr M k h w a n a z i ’s e v id e n c e w e w il l l o o k a t t h e a c t u a l b u d g e t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f m a r k e ti n g e tc e t e r a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I j u s t p u t a p i n i n th a t fo r t h e m o m e n t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h e n h e r e tu r n s w e w il l b e l o o k i n g a t t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f w e c a n t h e n g o t o t h e f ir s t D e le g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i ty r e l e v a n t f o r t h e ti m e a n d t h a t y o u w ill fi n d a t p a g e 11 3 o f Exhibit MM4 Mr Phatlane. Page 131 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: What page again? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 11 3 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 3 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e s p o n s o r s h i p p r o v i s i o n s i n t h e D e le g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i ty. Yo u w il l j u s t n o te a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 11 3 w h a t is t h e e ffe c tiv e d a te o f t h i s Tr a n s n e t G r o u p L i m i ts o f A u t h o r i ty d o c u m e n t ? M R P H AT L A N E: O h 1 J u n e 2 0 11 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 If y o u w il l j u s t p u t o n t h e – a n d M r P h a t la n e f e e l fr e e t o le a v e it o n . I t d o e s n o t a ff e c t o u r m ic r o p h o n e s i f y o u ju s t keep yours on. M R P H AT L A N E: T h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o ju s t fo r t h e r e c o r d a g a i n w h a t is t h e e ffe c tiv e d a t e o f t h is D e l e g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i t y d o c u m e n t ? M R P H AT L A N E: Is th e 1 J u n e 2 0 11 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n I w o u l d li k e t o t a k e y o u to t h e p r o v i s i o n g o v e r n in g s p o n s o r s h ip s . T h a t y o u w i ll fi n d a t p a g e 1 3 8 . 1 3 8 . Yo u w il l s e e t h e t o p t a b l e o n t h a t p a g e a p p e a r s a g a i n s t t h e n u m b e r 5 .8 . 5 a n d t h a t is h e a d e d S p o n s o r s h i p s a n d D o n a ti o n s , d o y o u s e e th a t ? 20 M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t I a m i n t e r e s te d i n is w h a t w a s t h e D e l e g a ti o n o f A u th o r i ty to t h e G C E , t h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e a t t h e s t a g e o f t h e 2 0 11 D e l e g a t io n o f A u t h o r i ty ? M R P H AT L A N E: I t w a s u p t o n o u g h t e x c e e d i n g R 3 0 m i lli o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . W e a r e g o i n g to r e t u r n t o t h a t a n d Page 132 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 w h e r e i t i s r e l e v a n t I w i ll r e m in d y o u o f t h e s e d e l e g a t io n s . B u t w e h a v e g o t i n 2 0 11 a t l e a s t fr o m t h e 1 J u n e 2 0 11 w e h a v e g o t t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e h a v i n g a u th o r it y o v e r s p o n s o r s h i p s a n d d o n a ti o n s u p t o b u t n o t e x c e e d i n g R 3 0 m i l li o n , r i g h t ? I a m g o i n g to t a k e y o u t o t h e 2 0 1 2 D e l e g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i ty n e x t s o th a t w e c a n s e e h o w t h a t p o s i ti o n c h a n g e d u n d e r t h e 2 0 1 2 d e l e g a t io n a n d y o u w ill f in d t h a t c o m m e n c i n g a t p a g e 1 4 1 – 1 4 1 . W h e n w a s t h i s D e l e g a ti o n o f A u t h o r i ty f r a m e w o r k e ffe c tiv e fr o m ? M R P H AT L A N E: I t s a y s e ffe c t iv e fr o m 1 M a y 2 0 1 2 . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o h o w d o w e u n d e r s t a n d t h e t w o i n r e la t io n t o e a c h o th e r ? W h e n d id th e p r e v i o u s D e le g a t io n o f A u th o r i ty c e a s e t o operate? M R P H AT L A N E : It s a y s i t – o r i t m e a n s i t w il l h a v e c e a s e d a t – o n th e 3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 2 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. S o fr o m t h e 1 M a y 2 0 1 2 t h is is w h a t o p e r a t e s a n d I w il l ta k e y o u t o t h e s p o n s o r s h i p p r o v i s i o n . Yo u w i ll fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 1 6 7 . A n d a g a in t h e r e Mr P h a tl a n e i f y o u g o t o n u m b e r 5 .8 . 5 y o u w il l s e e a h e a d in g S p o n s o r s h i p s a n d D o n a ti o n s . W h a t d o e s it n o w p r o v id e in r e l a t i o n t o t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u ti v e s e x te n t o f 20 a u t h o r i ty ? M R P H AT L A N E: It s a y s h e c a n s i g n s p o n s o r s h i p a n d d o n a t i o n u p t o b u t n o t e x c e e d i n g R 1 0 m i ll io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f it is a b o v e R 1 0 m i ll i o n w h o d e c i d e s o n that? C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I t h in k I a m lo o k i n g a t a w r o n g … Page 133 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m l o o k i n g a t 5 . 8 .1 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s 5 . 8 . 5 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Oh. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : J u s t f u r t h e r d o w n o n th e p a g e . Yo u w i ll s e e a h e a d i n g S p o n s o r s h ip a n d D o n a ti o n s th e r e . D o y o u h a v e th a t ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A g a in s t 5 .8 . 5 a n d t h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I h a v e g o t i t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i f y o u tr a c k i t a c r o s s e x c e l l e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r … C H A I R P E R S O N : U p t o R 1 0 m i ll io n ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U p to R 1 0 m i ll io n i n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I w a s a s k i n g Mr P h a tl a n e if i t e x c e e d e d R 1 0 m il li o n w h o t h e n w o u l d h a v e a u t h o r i ty ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t w i ll b e w h a t d o y o u c a l l th e R a m s a c k . I t is a B o a r d Committee. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e – a t th a t ti m e ? M R P H AT L A N E : If i t e x c e e d R 2 0 m i ll io n i t w ill b e th e B o a r d i ts e l f th a t n e e d s to r a t if y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t w o u l d g o u p t o R 1 0 m i lli o n t o t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u ti v e . C o r r e c t m e i f m y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s a c c u r a t e . B e t w e e n R 1 0 m il li o n a n d R 2 0 mi ll i o n i t w o u l d b e t h e S o c i a l a n d E t h ic s Page 134 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C o m m i t t e e i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R P H AT L A N E: I t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a b o v e 2 0 m il li o n i t w o u ld h a v e to g o t o t h e Board? M R P H AT L A N E: I t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. We have included the 2013 D e l e g a ti o n o f A u th o r i ty in th e b u n d le a s w e l l, b u t i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y t o g o t h e r e , b e c a u s e t h a t p o s i t io n t h e y h a d o b t a i n e d in 2 0 1 2 c a r r i e s t h r o u g h i n to 2 0 1 3 , b u t M r P h a t l a n e w h a t I a m in t e r e s t e d in is a s w e 10 h a v e l o o k e d a t th e s e d o c u m e n ts u n ti l 3 0 A p r i l 2 0 1 2 t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e h a d a u th o r i ty u p t o 3 0 m il li o n . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Oh. T h e o th e r p o in t w e s h o u l d j u s t m a k e in t e r e s ti n g ly. I f y o u g o u n d e r t h e t a b l e a t p a g e 5 . 8 .5 . C a n y o u te ll m e - r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d w h a t i s w r i tt e n a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h a t ta b l e ? Yo u w e r e a t p a g e 1 - 6 - 7 . S o a t p a g e 1 - 6 - 7 y o u w i ll s e e t h e h e a d in g a g a in s t 5 .8 . 5 “ S p o n s o r s h i p s a n d D o n a t i o n s ” . T h e r e is a t a b l e a n d th e n th e r e is s o m e l a n g u a g e a n d w o r d s b e n e a t h th e t a b le . C a n y o u p le a s e r e a d w h a t t h a t s a y s i n t o t h e r e c o r d ? 20 M R P H AT L A N E: “Approval li m i ts are a c c u m u l a tiv e per a n n u m . E . g . t h e O D - O p e r a t i n g D iv is i o n - C E c a n a p p r o v e a t o ta l a m o u n t o f fi v e m i ll io n p e r a n n u m f o r s p o n s o r s h i p s a n d d o n a ti o n s . ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n ? I s i t o v e r th e c o u r s e o f a y e a r t h e y c a n o n l y a p p r o v e u p to fi v e m il li o n ? Page 135 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R P H AT L A N E: W e l l - w e ll m y - m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g - I a m - I a m n o t a n e x p e r t o n t h is . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S u r e . M R P H AT L A N E: M y u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t a t p e r - a tr a n s a c ti o n i t m u s t b e - i t m u s t b e t h is - t h i s a m o u n t a n d t h e w h o le a m o u n t f o r a p a r tic u la r … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye a r. M R P H AT L A N E: M u s t b e - m u s t n o t e x c e e d t h e f iv e m il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t . 10 M R P H AT L A N E: S o h e c a n s i g n o n e f o r a m il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R P H AT L A N E: O n e f o r tw o m il li o n , t h r e e f o r - y o u k n o w - b u t t h e t o t a l m u s t - m u s t b e n o t a b o v e t h e fi v e m i ll io n th a t is h e r e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t o r t h e - o r t h e 1 0 m ill i o n i f w e d e a li n g with the … M R P H AT L A N E: O h . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u ti v e . Is th a t r i g h t? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: 20 W e ll I d o - I d o n o t th i n k t h a t w h a t y o u r e a d m e a n s t h a t , b e c a u s e if i t - i f i t m e a n t t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e n o n e e d f o r t h e in c l u s i o n o f t h e w o r d “ c u m u l a ti v e ” in th a t s e n t e n c e . I - I want you to t h i n k a b o u t - a b o u t th a t a n d m a y - a n d t e ll m e w h e t h e r y o u t h i n k i t m e a n s th e w a y y o u r e a d it w o u l d - w o u l d s ti ll h o l d . M R P H AT L A N E: Th a t is w h y C h a i r - C h a ir p e r s o n I a m s a y i n g b e c a u s e I w a s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly r e s p o n s ib l e f o r th is d o c u m e n t I - I m i g h t n o t b e Page 136 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 v e r y a c c u s to m e d … CHAIRPERSON: I accept … M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: No, no. I a c c e p t th a t . I a m - I a m ju s t - I a m j u s t t e s ti n g y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f i t . I a c c e p t th a t y o u d i d n o t w r i te it . I t s e e m s t o m e t h a t w h a t it m e a n s is t h a t i n a y e a r if y o u r D e l e g a t i o n o f A u t h o r i ty is fiv e mi ll i o n th e s p o n s o r s h i p s t h a t y o u a p p r o v e o v e r - o v e r a y e a r s h o u ld n o t e x c e e d in t h i s c a s e m e n ti o n e d a ft e r t h e c o l u m n fi v e m il li o n - f iv e m il li o n . 10 S o y o u m ig h t a p p r o v e t w o m i ll io n in J a n u a r y. A n o t h e r tw o m il li o n in J u n e a n d y o u - b u t y o u m u s t n o t th e n in N o v e m b e r a p p r o v e f o u r m i ll io n . M R P H AT L A N E: I t h i n k w e a r e in a g r e e m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n . M a y b e I d i d n o t c l a r i fy m y s e l f v e r y w e l l . That is - that is what I was saying. My u n d e r s t a n d in g … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g ? M R P H AT L A N E: T h a t is w h a t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. No, no. M R P H AT L A N E: To s a y t h e f iv e m il li o n w i l l b e t h e c u r b . 20 CHAIRPERSON: T h e n I - t h e n I m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u . I thought you w e r e s a y i n g p e r t r a n s a c t io n . M R P H AT L A N E: N o , n o . I w a s s a y i n g y o u w i ll h a v e 1 0 tr a n s a c ti o n s … . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h 1 0 t r a n s a c t io n . M R P H AT L A N E: B u t a ll o f t h e m w h e n y o u p u t th e m t o g e t h e r t h e y m u s t g iv e y o u t h is … Page 137 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R P H AT L A N E: T h i s n u m b e r … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. M R P H AT L A N E: O r le s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o I th in k w h e n y o u s a i d 1 0 tr a n s a c ti o n s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d p e r tr a n s a c ti o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E a c h . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u f o r th a t c l a r i f ic a t i o n M r P h a tl a n e . S o I w a s j u s t s u m m a r is i n g th e p o s i t io n t h e n a n d c o r r e c t m e i f m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is d e f ic ie n t i n a n y r e s p e c t . T h e 2 0 11 D e le g a t i o n o f A u t h o r i ty o p e r a t e d u n t il 3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 2 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R P H AT L A N E: T h a t - t h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And s p o n s o r s h ip s at th a t ti m e gave a D e l e g a ti o n o f A u th o r i ty to t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e u p to b u t n o t e x c e e d i n g 3 0 m i ll io n a n d t h a t w a s c u m u la t i v e o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f a y e a r. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R P H AT L A N E: T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g . Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n fr o m 2 0 1 2 - f r o m 1 M a y 2 0 1 2 - th a t c h a n g e d b e c a u s e t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e c o u l d o n ly a p p r o v e u p t o b u t n o t e x c e e d i n g 1 0 mi ll i o n in t h e g i v e n y e a r. Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R P H AT L A N E: Is c o r r e c t . J a C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : And if it went above that there were two s u c c e s s i v e e n t i ti e s i t w o u ld g o t o . F ir s t i t w o u l d b e t h e S o c i a l a n d Page 138 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 E t h i c s C o m m i t te e u p t o 2 0 m il li o n a n d a f t e r th a t a n y a m o u n t a b o v e 2 0 m il li o n w o u l d g o t o t h e B o a r d . Is th a t r i g h t ? M R P H AT L A N E: I t - i t is c o r r e c t . ( I n d is ti n c t) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Thank you. T h a t is g o i n g t o b e a n i m p o r t a n t b a c k d r o p t o w h e n w e g o th r o u g h t h e c o n tr a c ts a s t h e y d e v e l o p o v e r ti m e a n d t h a t is w h a t I w o u ld l ik e t o t a k e y o u to i f I m a y. I f w e t h e n g o b a c k t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t M r P h a t la n e . Yo u c a n p ic k i t u p a t p a g e 1 o f EXHIBIT M M4. Right. T h e r e a t p a r a g r a p h - w e ll t h e n u m b e r e d p a r a g r a p h 2 y o u t a lk 10 a b o u t t h e i n i t ia l s t a g e o f T h e N e w A g e Br e a k f a s ts . C a n y o u t e l l u s h o w T h e N e w A g e Br e a k f a s ts c a m e t o y o u r a tt e n ti o n a t a ll a t Tr a n s n e t o r i g in a l ly ? M R P H AT L A N E: I n 2 0 11 - I t h i n k I h a d j o i n e d - w h e n - w h e n t h is i s s u e o f T N A Br e a k f a s ts c o m in g . B e f o r e I h a d d o n e t h e s e - t h e s e s m a ll s p o n s o r s h i p s a n d d o n a t io n s w h ic h w e r e 1 0 0 0 0 0 , 5 0 0 0 0 - y o u k n o w a n d t h e y g e t a p p r o v e d . S o th e is s u e o f D A w a s n o t m u c h o f a n is s u e , b e c a u s e t h e G M h a d D O A a s I w a s i n fo r m e d . T h e n t h e r e w a s a g e n t le m a n J a c q u e s . s p o k e a b o u t h i m , b u t I f o r g o t h is s u r n a m e . 20 I t h in k M r J o s e p h Jacques - Jacques … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d i t b e R o u x ? J a c q u e s R o u x . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . J a c q u e s L e R o u x … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: O r R o u x . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 139 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R P H AT L A N E: H e c a m e - h e c a m e a r o u n d o u r o ff ic e s t o s e e o u r G M . He has been coming for a number of days. We - we did not know what t h e y w e r e - w h a t w a s t h e d is c u s s i o n s a b o u t , b u t h e w a s f r e q u e n ti n g le t u s s a y - o u r o ff ic e s . T h e n la t e r i t a p p e a r e d th a t th e r e w a s a n i s s u e a r o u n d a n e w s p a p e r. I - I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r it h a d s t a r te d , b u t I r e m e m b e r i t - it w a s a r o u n d t h e - T h e N e w A g e t h i n g h a d s t a r te d . S o … C H YA I R P E R S O N : Yo u r G M a t t h a t t i m e w a s S i g o n y e la ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . I t w a s M r S i g o n y e l a . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r S i g o n y e l a . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R P H AT L A N E: Around September - I think - around September the fir s t p r o p o s e - th e f ir s t r e q u e s t a c t u a ll y - t h e fir s t o n e w a s n o t e v e n - i t - i t w a s a - a p r o p o s a l fr o m T N A t h a t s a y s w e n e e d t o s p o n s o r a - a b r e a k f a s t . A T N A Br e a k fa s t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M r P h a tl a n e , i f I c o u l d t a k e y o u t o i t . Just w h il e y o u e x p l a in in g in y o u r e v i d e n c e . Yo u w i ll f in d it a t p a g e 1 5 - 1 - 5 of MM4. 20 M R P H AT L A N E: T h e s e b r e a k fa s ts t h e y s t a r te d a s ju s t a d h o c . O n e o n e o r - o r t w o b r e a k f a s ts . I t is l ik e y o u s u p p o r ti n g a n y o t h e r b r e a k f a s t t h a t w o u l d b e t h e r e , b u t th is o n e w a s T N A w h e r e w e - w e w e r e b i ll e d 7 3 5 0 0 0 fo r t h a t s e s s i o n … ( in t e r v e n e s ) . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W a s t h a t - w a s t h a t a s i n g l e … M R P H AT L A N E: T h a t w a s … . Page 140 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u s in e s s b r e a k fa s t t h a t t h e y w e r e m a k i n g a proposal for? M R P H AT L A N E: T h e y - th e y w e r e m a k i n g a p r o p o s a l fo r - f o r t w o . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t . E a c h i n t h e a m o u n t o f R 7 3 5 7 0 0 , 0 0 . I s that correct? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C a n w e ju s t l o o k a t t h i s p a g e f o r a m o m e n t? W h a t is t h e h e a d i n g o f - w e l l fir s t o f a ll w h o - w h o a d d r e s s e s t h is le t t e r a n d to w h o m i s i t a d d r e s s e d ? 10 M R P H AT L A N E: I t is J a c q u e s R o u x r e q u e s t in g M r M b o n i s o S i g o n y e la . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t i s t h e h e a d i n g o f t h e p r o p o s a l ? M R P H AT L A N E: I t i s a p r o p o s a l f o r s p o n s o r s h i p o p p o r tu n i t y in - i n T h e N e w A g e B u s i n e s s b r ie f in g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u w i ll j u s t r e a d w h a t is s a i d i n t h e p r o p o s a l a f te r D e a r Mr S i g o n y e la . M R P H AT L A N E: I t s a y s : “ W e th a n k y o u f o r th e o n g o in g c o m m i t m e n t to th is e n g a g e m e n t a n d t a k e p l e a s u r e in c o n fir m i n g o u r 20 o ffe r f o r a n e x c i t in g s p o n s o r s h ip o p p o r t u n it y t o o u r e x tr e m e l y p o p u l a r b u s in e s s b r i e f i n g f o r D e c e m b e r a n d J a n u a r y a s a p p e n d e d b e lo w. ” A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n w h a t a p p e a r s b e l o w ? M R P H AT L A N E: B e l o w it is - i t is a - i t is a p r o p o s a l o f h o w m u c h i t is w o r t h i f y o u p a r t ic i p a te in t h is . Page 141 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e t o p a g e 1 6 w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d a ft e r Tr a n s n e t r e c e i v e d t h a t p r o p o s a l fr o m T N A ? M R P H AT L A N E: W h a t - w h a t h a p p e n s is w e s t a r t e d n o w - I w a s - I w a s in s t r u c t e d t h a t I n e e d t o p u t t o g e t h e r a - a m e m o r a n d u m s u g g e s ti n g t h a t w e - w e n e e d t o p a r ti c i p a t e h e r e in - i n t h is b r e a k f a s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o l o o k a t s o m e o f w h a t is s t a te d i n th is m e m o r a n d u m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m - I th i n k Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e l e t u s - le t u s r e a d t h a t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o p o s a l i n to t h e r e c o r d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I t h i n k i t - it is i m p o r t a n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s t h e fir s t d o c u m e n t o r p r o p o s a l . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir, w e h a v e h a d Mr P h a tl a n e r e a d t h a t f ir s t 20 paragraph … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n d e r t h e i n t r o d u c ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S h o u l d I s u m m a r i s e w h a t is t h e n c o n t a in e d i n t h e t a b le ? Page 142 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n - y o u c a n s u m m a r i s e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n s u m m a r is e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : I ju s t w a n t e d th e p e r s o n w h o is r e a d in g t h e tr a n s c r i p t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O f c o u r s e . C H A I R P E R S O N : To g e t … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m a i n f e a t u r e s w i t h o u t g o in g to t h e … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o c u m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: Actual page. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . I n d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o b e l o w w h a t M r P h a tl a n e r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d is a s ta b le . H e d i d T h e N e w A g e B u s i n e s s B r i e fi n g . I t h a s a p r o p o s a l d a t e o f 1 2 S e p te m b e r 2 0 11 a n d i t i n d i c a t e s t h a t t h e p e r i o d is D e c e m b e r a n d J a n u a r y a n d t h e r e is i n s m a ll ty p e a p r o p o s a l o v e r v i e w. “High 20 p r o fi l e business b r e a k fa s t with s u i t a b ly p r o f il e d g u e s t s p e a k e r t o p r o m o t e r e a d e r s h i p o f T h e N e w A g e a m o n g s t b u s i n e s s e l i te a n d c r e a te a n e x c e l l e n t c o - b r a n d in g o p p o r tu n it y. ” A n d t h e n t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n c o l u m n s w h ic h d e t a il i te m s s u c h a s th e v e n u e w h i c h is i d e n t if i e d a s a B a ll r o o m a t t h e S a n d t o n C o n v e n ti o n C e n tr e . I t e s t i m a te s t h e n u m b e r o f g u e s ts w h i c h is 5 0 0 . Page 143 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 T h e g u e s t - t h e s u g g e s te d s p e a k e r u n d e r t h e c o l u m n o f D e c e m b e r is M i n is t e r M a lu s i G ig a b a a n d u n d e r t h e c o l u m n fo r J a n u a r y th e r e i s a T B A w h ic h I t a k e t o m e a n To B e A n n o u n c e d a n d th e n y o u g e t v e n u e h ir e c o s ts s e t o u t . A d v e r t is i n g c o v e r a g e . I t s a y s 1 0 ti m e s 3 0 b y s ix a d v e r ts . T h e r e is s o m e t h i n g u n d e r a d v e r tis i n g c o s ts o f R 5 3 8 2 0 0 , 0 0 . C a t e r i n g c o s ts o f R 1 4 7 5 0 0 ,0 0 a n d t h e n a t o t a l o f t h e R 7 3 5 , 7 0 0 , 0 0 a n d t h e n i t goes on to read: “ T N A M e d ia is c o m m i t t e d t o e n s u r i n g t h e h i g h e s t 10 p o s s i b le p r o fi l e o f s p e a k e r s w il l b e s e c u r e d fo r t h e s e e x c l u s iv e e v e n ts a n d s i m il a r l y t h e g u e s t l is ts w i ll b e c a r e f u l c o n s tr u c te d t o e n s u r e t h e o p t i m a l t a r g e t a u d i e n c e fo r b o th o r o r g a n i s a t io n s . W e t h a n k y o u o n c e a g a in fo r t h e o p p o r tu n i t y o f s u b m i t t in g t h is p r o p o s a l a n d l o o k f o r w a r d t o b e in g o f s e r v ic e a t all times.” A n d t h e n i t is s i g n e d o ff b y J a c q u e s R o u x . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . S o … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r P h a t l a n e t h a t is o r t h a t is d a t e d 1 2 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 a n d t h e n w e m o v e o v e r to p a g e 1 6 . CHAIRPERSON: May - maybe Ms … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . CHAIRPERSON: H o f m e y r. I n o te th a t i n t h e h e a d i n g t h i s p r o p o s a l Page 144 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 s a y s Th e N e w A g e B u s i n e s s B r i e fi n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t Br e a k f a s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e m a y o r m a y n o t b e s i g n i fi c a n c e i n t h a t . S o you … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : What was your understanding? Wa s th e r e a d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n th e b u s i n e s s b r ie f in g a n d t h e b u s in e s s b r i e fi n g b r e a k f a s t s o r t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s ts o r a r e t h o s e a ll t h e s a m e t h i n g ? 10 M R P H AT L A N E: C h a ir, C h a ir p e r s o n t h e - t h e - th e y w il l - t h e y c h a n g e t h e n a m e s . I r e m e m b e r s o m e t i m e s it w il l w r i t e i t w ill b e b r i e fi n g , b u t i t - i t w a s th e s a m e - s a m e e v e n t . CHAIRPERSON: B u t t h e y s o m e t i m e s s a i d b r e a k fa s t w i t h o u t b r ie f in g . S o m e t i m e s t h e y s a i d b r i e fi n g w i th o u t b r e a k f a s t . S o m e ti m e s th e y s a i d b r i e fi n g b r e a k f a s t . M R P H AT L A N E: No. I t h i n k f r o m Tr a n s n e t w h e n - w h e n w e w e r e w r i t in g w e w i ll r e f e r to t h e m a s - a s b r e a k f a s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: In s te a d o f - o f b r ie f in g . 20 CHAIRPERSON: B u t d o y o u r e c a ll w h a t t h e y - w h a t T N A c a ll e d t h e m most of the time? CHAIRPERSON: M R P H AT L A N E: N o . I t w a s t h e s a m e . It w a s b r i e f i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Br ie f in g a l l t h e t i m e ? M R P H AT L A N E: A ll th e ti m e . Page 145 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R P H AT L A N E: T h a t is w h y I s a y I r e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o r e fe r e n c e t o b r e a k f a s t ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e l l … M R P H AT L A N E: I c a n n o t - I c a n n o t - I d o n o t w a n t to . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . CHAIRPERSON: I may be confusing … (intervenes). A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : No. N o t a t a l l, b u t i f I m a y j u s t b e o f a s s is t a n c e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e i t i s o f c o u r s e a s k in g M r P h a t l a n e t o go back … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n s o m e ti m e . I f w e g o f o r e x a m p l e to p a g e 3 0 w h ic h w a s a l a t e r p r o p o s a l . CHAIRPERSON: 3-0? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 - 0 C h a ir. M R P H AT L A N E: H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: O h . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w i ll s e e t h e r e th e h e a d i n g o f t h a t p r o p o s a l … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s T h e N e w A g e B u s in e s s Br e a k fa s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : N e w A g e B u s i n e s s Br e a k f a s t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S p o n s o r s h ip . Page 146 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o i t d o e s s e e m c e r ta i n ly a s w e h a v e s e e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e s e p r o p o s a ls . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o . T h a t is fi n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e t e r m s a r e m o v e d in t e r c h a n g e a b ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr P h a tl a n e , if w e c a n t h e n r e t u r n t o p a g e 1 6 , b e c a u s e t h i s i s th e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u in d ic a t e d i n y o u r e v id e n c e a 10 moment ago. Yo u w e r e th e n r e q u i r e d o r - o r a s k e d to p r e p a r e . Who a s k e d y o u t o p r e p a r e i t? M R P H AT L A N E: M r M b o n is o Si g o n y e l a i n s tr u c t e d t h a t I - I p r e p a r e a memorandum … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R P H AT L A N E: F o r p a r t ic i p a ti o n in - in t h e s e s e c t i o n s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d u e d ili g e n c e d i d y o u d o b e f o r e p r e p a r in g i t , b e c a u s e y o u e x p l a in e d t o u s e a r li e r t h e u s u a l p r o c e s s was. Yo u r e c e i v e a n i n p u t fr o m a s p o n s o r - a p r o p o s e d s p o n s o r s h i p a n d th e n y o u d o a d u e d il ig e n c e t o a s s e s s w h e t h e r i t m a k e s s e n s e f o r 20 Tr a n s n e t t o e n g a g e w i th th is p r o p o s e d s p o n s o r. W h a t d u e d il i g e n c e d id you? M R P H AT L A N E: L e t m e s a y C h a ir p e r s o n . W h e n i t s ta r t e d b e c a u s e is w h e r e n e w a c ti v i ti e s th a t - th a t o n e d i d n o t g e t i n t o b e fo r e . The m a g n i t u d e o f t h e a m o u n ts a n d a ll t h a t . W h a t o n e w i ll d o is t o g o - w e w i ll g o t o t h e G M . H e w i ll g i v e y o u i d e a s a s t o w h a t y o u n e e d t o p l u g in Page 147 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a n d th e n w h a t y o u … C H A I R P E R S O N : In - in t h e m e m o r a n d u m o r w h a t? M R P H AT L A N E: In t h e m e m o r a n d u m . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: To s a y l o o k a t th is , b e c a u s e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: B e c a u s e t h is - th is i f y o u r e a d i t. It a l s o t a lk s a b o u t b r a n d i n g a n d w h ic h - w h i c h b r a n d in g w a s n o t m y - m y fo r t e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R P H AT L A N E: Yo u k n o w. I t - i t w a s o t h e r c o l l e a g u e s ’ r e s p o n s i b i li ty. S o i t - it w il l ta lk a b o u t m e d ia w h i c h n o t a ls o m y f o r t e . S o y o u - y o u n o w a n d t h e n w ill n e e d g u i d a n c e fr o m a ls o c o ll e a g u e s ’ w i th - w i t h i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t, b e c a u s e t h is w a s a n a ll - e n c o m p a s s i n g . It w a s n o t j u s t o n e - a - a n o n ly s ta k e h o l d e r a c t iv i ty - p o s i t io n f o r - f o r - i t w a s n o t a p l a t fo r m f o r s t a k e h o l d e r e n g a g e m e n t o n ly. I t h a d o t h e r e l e m e n ts . S o y o u - y o u m o v e a r o u n d . G e tt i n g c o ll e a g u e s t o - to a s s is t , b u t t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w e w i ll d o w h i c h c a m e l a t e r. I n i t ia ll y h e r e i t w i ll b e ju s t t a k e t h e s p o n s o r s h ip . I n t e r p r e t i t . L o o k a t - a t w h a t Tr a n s n e t c a n b e n e fi t fr o m t h a t , b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s t h e y - t h e y w i ll w r i t e t o s a y w h a t 20 is i t t h a t w e w il l g e t i n t h e r e a n d p u t t h o s e e le m e n ts to s a y t h is is w h a t w e a r e g o in g t o g e t fr o m th e r e a n d g o t o t h e M a n a g e r s t o a d v is e in t e r m s - i n t e r m s o f t h e a m o u n t , b e c a u s e t h is l ik e I s a id it w a s b i g . I - I h a d n o t d o n e th is b e f o r e . W h a t e v e r t h a t w e h a d w e r e s m a ll a m o u n ts . S o th e n t h e G M w il l a d v i s e u s to w h e t h e r i t is c o r r e c t o r y o u w il l t a k e - y o u w i ll t a k e i t b a c k a n d - a n d c o r r e c t t o c h e c k Page 148 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 w h e t h e r t h e - th e d u e p r o c e s s e s w h ic h i s ju s t t o c h e c k i f t h e c o m p a n y is - is t h e r e . If t h e r e is a p r o p o s a l a n d - a n d a l l t h a t . T h a t y o u w i ll d o a n d th e n i t g o e s t o h i m f o r r a t i fic a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o M r P h a t l a n e , if w e g o t o p a r a g r a p h 2 o n p a g e 1 6 . Yo u r e c o r d t h e r e t h a t : “The New Age p u b li c a t io n is one of the key p u b lic a ti o n s th a t Tr a n s n e t t a r g e ts fo r p o s i ti o n i n g o f it s b r a n d a n d t o i m p r o v e i t s i m a g e . 10 Where does that come from? M R P H AT L A N E: W e ll t h is is w h a t w e i n s tr u c t e d t o w r i t e a b o u t, b e c a u s e h e w il l q u e s t io n t o s a y, b u t I - I l o o k a t t h is fr o m s p o n s o r s h ip p o i n t o f v i e w. W h e r e i t is n o t - i t is n o t - to m e I a m n o t lo o k in g a t m e d i a s i t e . T h e m e d i a s i te h a s s o m e b o d y. N o w if i t is a s p o n s o r s h i p t h a t w e t a l k a b o u t th e p u b lic a ti o n . H o w d o w e d e a l w i th t h a t ? T h e n w e a r e t o l d to - t o a d d - a d d th is , b e c a u s e a s - a s y o u w r i t e y o u t a k e i t to h i m . H e c h a n g e s - h e w i ll t a k e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w y o u r … M R P H AT L A N E: T h e G - t h e G … 20 CHAIRPERSON: The General … M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr S i g o n y e la . M R P H AT L A N E: M r S i g o n y e l a , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Well … M R P H AT L A N E: S o … Page 149 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R P H AT L A N E: I t w il l - i t w il l c o m e t o h i m t o s a y h e i s n o t h a p p y w h a t - w i t h w h a t y o u h a v e w r i tt e n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: Yo u k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l - w e l l m a y b e b e f o r e M s H o f m e y r f o ll o w s u p . W h e n y o u g o t t h is p r o - w h e n y o u s a w th i s p r o p o s a l fo r th e f ir s t ti m e . Wa s i t w h e n i t w a s s e n t t o y o u o r g i v e n to y o u b y M r S ig o n y e l a ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . H e - h e w il l c a ll y o u i n t o h is o ff ic e . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s a n d - a n d t h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: Ta lk a b o u t - s h o w y o u t h is , b u t s t a r t ta lk in g a b o u t it . This … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: T h i s is a n e w p u b l ic a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. O k a y. M R P H AT L A N E: A ll o f t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o is y o u r e v id e n c e th a t y o u w e r e g u i d e d b y h i m i n i n c l u d i n g t h e c o n t e n t o f p a r a g r a p h 2 th e r e ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i t g o e s o n to ta lk a b o u t t h e t w o Page 150 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 breakfasts. It seems … C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y - m a y b e l e t u s j u s t m a k e s u r e i t i s c l e a r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a r e y o u s a y i n g M r P h a tl a n e a s f a r a s p a r a g r a p h 2 is c o n c e r n e d y o u c a n n o t v o u c h f o r w h a t is s a id t h e r e ? It was not c o m i n g fr o m y o u to s a y : “ T h e N e w A g e is o n e o f t h e k e y p u b li c a ti o n s t h a t Tr a n s n e t ta r g e ts fo r p o s i ti o n i n g o f i t s b r a n d a n d t o i m p r o v e i ts i m a g e . ” 10 M R P H AT L A N E: C h a ir p e r s o n , d u r i n g - d u r in g o u r e r a y o u w il l w r it e i t t h e w a y y o u - y o u w r i t e o t h e r s m a l l s p o n s o r s h i p p r o p o s a ls , b u t t h is o n e y o u w il l b e g u id e d - y o u w i ll w r it e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M R P H AT L A N E: T h e n t h e r e w il l b e - t h e r e w i ll b e c o r r e c ti o n , c o r r e c t io n , c o r r e c t io n , c o r r e c t io n . I t is a s i f y o u h a v e n o t - y o u h a v e n o t d o n e a n y t h i n g a n d i t w il l g o t o a n e x t e n t w h e r e s o m e ti m e s i t b e c o m e s p e r s o n a l . W h e r e y o u - y o u w il l fi n d y o u r m e m o r a n d u m . Yo u w i ll h a v e t o p ic k i t u p d o w n t h e r e . I t is - i t i s - i t l o o k lik e e it h e r y o u a r e n o t f o ll o w i n g w h a t I a m 20 s a y in g o r y o u d o n o t . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: S o - s o t h a t - th a t w a s th e - th e e r a i n w h ic h w e w e r e in . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 151 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R P H AT L A N E: S o y o u t h e n e n d u p t a k i n g w h a te v e r. Oh. T h e r e is c o r r e c t io n a s th e y a r e . Yo u p u t t h e m . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: Yo u t a k e i t b a c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: I t is - it g e t s t a k e n to t h e n e x t le v e l . C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n I t a k e th a t a n s w e r to b e … M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s s ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e e ffe c t t h a t i t is a y e s . 10 M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Yo u - y o u w e r e w r it i n g w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d t o write. M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: As far as - at least paragraph 2. M R P H AT L A N E: W h a t h a s b e e n r e v i e w e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: Ja. I t w il l n o t n e c e s s a r ily b e s a i d d ir e c tl y. H e w i ll w r i t e th e r e w h a t - t h e w a y h e w a n ts i t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . 20 M R P H AT L A N E: O n t h e m e m o r a n d u m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A lr i g h t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n o v e r t h e p a g e a t p a g e 1 7 t h e r e is a n in d ic a t i o n o f th e fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a t io n s . W h a t w a s g o i n g to b e t h e t o ta l c o s t o f t h is in i ti a ti v e if it w a s s u p p o r t e d a s a s p o n s o r s h ip ? M R P H AT L A N E: I t w a s g o in g t o b e w o r t h 1 . 4 7 1 m il li o n . Page 152 of 187 I t is 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 1 471 000. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s a n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h th a t ? Wa s i t approved? M R P H AT L A N E: W e l l d u r in g t h is - th is ti m e i t w a s n o t a p p r o v e d . M r M a b o m a b y t h e n . H e w a s a c ti n g . H e a s a l e g a l - a l e g a l - h e w a s a L e g a l S e r v ic e G r o u p E x e c u tiv e i f I a m n o t - b u t h e w a s - h e w a s … C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s in t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t? M R P H AT L A N E: In - in t h e L e g a l D e p a r t m e n t a t a h i g h e r p o s i t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R P H AT L A N E: S o h e - h e w a s Ac t in g o n b e h a l f o f Ms Z o la - I h a v e f o r g o t t e n t h e s u r n a m e , b u t M s Z o l a w e r e r e p o r t in g - s h e w a s r e p o r ti n g t o h i m d ir e c t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I th in k i t is t h e o n e I s a w e a r l i e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . S o i t w a s n o t - it w a s n o t a p p r o v e d . Mr M a b o m a d i d n o t a g r e e w i th - w i t h th is s p o n s o r s h i p . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . T h a t is w h y h e d i d n o t s i g n ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . H e d i d - h e d i d i n d i c a t e t h a t h e w il l n o t s i g n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e - Ms H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I w a s g o in g to a s k a q u e s ti o n a n d I r e m e m b e r e d … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t I m u s t l e a v e i t to y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . Page 153 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e y o u w e r e s t il l g o i n g t o a s k h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o t a t a l l. C h a ir p le a s e a n d I w i ll f o ll o w u p a ft e r w a r d s i f i t is n e c e s s a r y. CHAIRPERSON: D id h e i n d i c a t e w h y h e - h e w a s n o t p r e p a r e d to a p p r o v e th is s p o n s o r s h i p ? M R P H AT L A N E: W e l l - w e l l b e c a u s e I a m n o t t h e o n e w h o w il l d e f in i te ly - w i ll t a k e i t t o h i m . N o r m a l ly it i s t h e p r o c e s s . I t w il l … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: O n c e - o n c e I h a v e d o n e m y j o b i t w il l … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: In t h e o ffi c e o f th e - o f t h e G M . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: A n d t h e n t h e - t h e a s s is t a n t in t h e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: G M w il l - w i ll t a k e i t t h e r e , b u t w h e n i t c o m e s b a c k d e f in i te ly I w il l k n o w t h is … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: I t is n o t s i g n e d , b e c a u s e w e n e e d to … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 M R P H AT L A N E: to t a k e to - t o t h e n e x t l e v e l o f … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: H a v i n g a c o n t r a c t a n d a l l th a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But you - so you - you do not know what reasons … Page 154 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R P H AT L A N E: I … C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a d ? H e m ig h t h a v e a r ti c u la t e d ? M R P H AT L A N E: W e ll b y th a t I w a s s t ill n e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h is c a s e . M R P H AT L A N E: I d i d n o t - I d i d n o t h a v e a c l o s e r r e l a ti o n s h i p t o s a y even I could ask on the side. I - I cannot remember what was … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: H is d e c i s i o n w i th M r - w i t h … CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ja. No. W h a t I a m t h i n k i n g is y o u e s c a l a te t h is t o t h e n e x t p e r s o n a n d y o u s ig n e d a n d t h e n y o u r G e n e r a l M a n a g e r M r Si g o n y e l a s ig n e d . I t h o u g h t m a y b e w h e n i t c o m e s b a c k a n d y o u a r e told it was not approved. M a y b e y o u m ig h t h a v e b e e n t o l d w h y M r M a b o m a d i d n o t s ig n . M R P H AT L A N E: N o . W h a t I w a s t o l d w a s ju s t le a v e i t . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R P H AT L A N E: J a . I t w a s li k e w e a r e p a r k i n g i t f o r n o w, b e c a u s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R P H AT L A N E: W e p a r k e d it o n t h e s i d e , b u t i t is … CHAIRPERSON: Oh. 20 M R P H AT L A N E: W e s t a r t e d t h e p r o c e s s a g a i n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e ll i f w e g o o v e r to p a g e 1 8 . W e w i ll g e t t h e n e x t m e m o r a n d u m r e l a t e d t o t h e p r o p o s e d s p o n s o r s h i p o f th e N e w A g e B u s i n e s s Br i e f i n g s e s s i o n s . I t s e e m s t h a t w e a r e b a c k t o th e l a n g u a g e o f b u s in e s s b r ie f in g t h e r e . W h a t w a s … ? Page 155 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y - m a y b e - m a y b e . I a m s o r r y Ms … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : H o f m e y r. M a y b e y o u c a n a s s is t m e h e r e M r P h a t l a n e . A s - a s t h e p r o p o s a l - a s y o u s ig n e d t h e p r o p o s a l t h is o n e t h a t w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t. W e r e y o u i n s u p p o r t o f Tr a n s n e t’s s p o n s o r i n g t h e s e b r i e fi n g s o r b r e a k f a s ts ? M R P H AT L A N E: In i ti a l ly C h a ir … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is p a r tic u la r o n e . M R P H AT L A N E: 10 In i ti a l ly C h a i r w h e n th e y c a m e - r e m e m b e r th e y a r e n e w. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: We have been hearing about New Age there. New A g e w h a t , w h a t . T h e r e a r e b r e a k f a s ts th a t - n o w - n o w w h e n i t c o m e s r e m e m b e r t h a t y o u d o n o t h a v e th e c o n te n ts . S o th e r e - t h e r e h a s to b e d is c u s s i o n s b e tw e e n m y s e l f a n d - a n d a l s o t h e o th e r M a n a g e r s . There were - there were - there was also a - a level of other Managers. Yo u n e e d t o fi n d o u t n o w h o w d o y o u g o - g o a b o u t a n d i f - i f w e a r e t o l d th e - t h e h is t o r y o f Tr a n s n e t t o s a y w e h a v e n e v e r b e e n o r T V w h a t e v e r. W e - w e d o n o t g o a b o v e th e l in e . T h i s is a n o p p o r tu n i t y 20 - t h is is a n o p p o r t u n i ty fo r Tr a n s n e t t o b e o n T V a n d - a n d y o u - y o u b u y i n to t h a t n a r r a t iv e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: I t s a y s - i t s a y s t h is a m o u n t . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: N o w y o u - n o w t h e b r a n d is g o i n g t o g e t t h is Page 156 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 exposure. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: M o r e s o y o u w i ll - I a m lo o k in g a t i t f r o m t h i s - fr o m t h e s ta k e h o l d e r p o i n t o f v i e w t o s a y I w il l - I w il l b e a b l e t o h a v e a - a n o p p o r t u n i ty to i n v it e k e y s ta k e h o l d e r s t o - t o b e p a r t o f t h a t . To g o a n d - a n d e i t h e r d r iv e t h e - th e th o u g h t l e a d e r s h i p o r li s te n to … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: T h o u g h t l e a d e r s h i p . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R P H AT L A N E: Yo u k n o w. S o I - w h e n it s t a r t e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e i n s u p p o r t ? M R P H AT L A N E: I - I s u p p o r t i t. I s u p p o r t it . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: I d o n o t w a n t to r e a l ly l ie . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d - a n d w h a t y o u t h o u g h t w a s t h e v a l u e fo r Tr a n s n e t w a s t h e e x p o s u r e o n T V ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . Th e - th e m il e a g e o f th e b r a n d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: I a ls o l o o k e d a t - a t th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: A n d a ls o t h i s p l a t fo r m t h a t i s b e i n g c r e a t e d f o r u s t o b e a b l e t o in v i t e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Page 157 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R P H AT L A N E: O u r s t a k e h o l d e r - o u r s t a k e h o l d e r s a n d w e w i ll c h o ic e w h ic h o n e s f o r - f o r th e b e n e fi ts t h a t w e a r e g e t ti n g o ff t h e t w o t a b l e s … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: A n d a l s o t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t h a t w e w i ll b e a b l e to t a l k … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R P H AT L A N E: ( In d is ti n c t) t h a t w e s h o u l d i n v i t e k e y Tr a n s n e t le a d e r s h i p t o CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R P H AT L A N E: L e a d e r s o r m a n a g e r s to g o a n d s p e a k t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: S o i t l o o k e d c o s y a n d i t l o o k e d w e ll … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: Fr o m m y s id e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d - a n d th e a m o u n t s e e m e d j u s t if i a b le ? M R P H AT L A N E: W e ll b e c a u s e i t - i t h a d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: C e r t a i n e l e m e n t s t h a t - th a t w e r e n o t n e c e s s a r il y a r e a s t h a t I w a s f a m i li a r w i t h . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: L ik e a d v e r t is in g … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: W h i c h - w h ic h w a s b r o u g h t i n t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: I l o o k e d a t - a d d it i o n a l - a d d it i o n a l b e n e fi ts . Page 158 of 187 Yo u 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: S o i f t h e y h a v e c h a r g e d th is w a y, b e c a u s e w i th e v e n t in g I k n o w r o u g h l y o k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: I d o e v e n ts . O k a y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: T h e r e w i ll b e t h is , b u t n o w w h e n t h e y a d d e d t h is - t h e e x p o s u r e o n t h e n e w s p a p e r a n d w h a te v e r w h ic h i s m e d ia r e la t e d . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: I - I t h o u g h t i t w a s f a ir t h e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M s H o f m e y r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I - I a m in d e b t e d . I a c tu a l ly d o h a v e a f o l lo w u p q u e s ti o n if I m a y a r is i n g f r o m y o u r s . I f w e g o b a c k t o p a g e 1 5 , b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r th a t i s t h e fir s t p r o p o s a l th a t Mr R o u x sends through. I a m j u s t i n te r e s t e d i n h o w t h e y b r e a k d o w n t h e c o s t s t h a t t h e y a r e g o i n g t o b e c h a r g i n g Tr a n s n e t o f R 7 3 5 7 0 0 , 0 0 p e r b r i e fi n g 20 breakfast. D i d y o u in t e r r o g a t e t h a t a t a ll ? D i d y o u fo r e x a m p le q u e r y w h y Tr a n s n e t w o u l d b e p a y in g f o r c a t e r i n g a t t h e b u s in e s s b r e a k fa s t a n d w h e t h e r t h a t w o u l d d e r i v e m o n e y v a lu e f o r Tr a n s n e t ? M R P H AT L A N E: N o . I d o n o t th i n k w e - I d o n o t t h i n k o n e i n t e r r o g a t e d it t h a t w a y. Page 159 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R P H AT L A N E: T h e r e a r e c e r t a i n t h i n g s t h a t y o u t o o k i t t h a t th e y a r e p a r t o f e v e n ti n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R P H AT L A N E: Yo u k n o w. N o w t h is is a p r o p o s a l . I t is a p a c k a g e t h a t e i t h e r y o u a s Tr a n s n e t y o u d e c id e a n d s a y n o w e d o n o t th i n k i t is f a ir o r w e d o n o t d o i t o r w h a t e v e r. S o I - I lo o k e d a t i t fr o m t h a t a n g l e t o s a y th is is - th is is a p a c k a g e , b u t a l s o w i th th e d is c u s s i o n s t h a t w e a r e h a v i n g w i t h o th e r M a n a g e r s a n d o t h e r c o ll e a g u e s t h a t s a y s . 10 Yo u k n o w. W e h a v e n o t - w e h a v e n o t b e i n g o n a b o v e th e l i n e a n d i t is a n o p p o r t u n i ty. S o y o u g e t s w a y e d i n a w a y t o s a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R P H AT L A N E: T h i s l o o k s l ik e i t i s a fa ir p r i c e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a d Tr a n s n e t e v e r p a i d f o r c a te r i n g b e f o r e a t breakfasts it had attended or sponsored? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . W e d id . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d r ig h t i f w e c a n t h e n g o to th e n e x t m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h is p a g e 1 8 a n d t h a t is a m e m o r a n d u m d a te d th e 2 0 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 2 , d o y o u s e e t h a t , w e ’r e a t p a g e 1 8 ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e r e y o u i n v o l v e d in t h e p r e p a r a ti o n o f t h is memorandum? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s I w a s i n v o l v e d C h a i r p e r s o n . Page 160 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a n y o u r e a d f o r u s w h a t t h e s u b je c t o f th e memorandum was? M R P H AT L A N E : I t s a y s , “ S p o n s o r s h i p p r o p o s a l f o r t h e N e w A g e B u s i n e s s b r i e fi n g sessions”. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w w h a t w a s t h is p r o p o s a l fo r, h o w m a n y business breakfasts and at what value? M R P H AT LA N E : Th e y w a n te d , n o w, a c o n t r a c t n o w, s o t h a t w e d o n ’ t d o ad hoc because we had started with Adhoc, two adhoc sessions, now 10 t h e y ’v e b r o u g h t a p r o p o s a l th a t s a y s t h e y w a n t a c o n t r a c t o f 1 6 s e s s i o n s w o r t h R 1 6 m il li o n , n o w t h e y ’ v e in c r e a s e d fr o m 7 3 5 i t w e n t t o a m il li o n p e r s e s s i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e o n e s y o u h a d a lr e a d y d o n e b e f o r e t h e y t a l k e d a b o u t a c o n tr a c t n o w, t h e a d h o c o n e s , t h a t y o u h a d d o n e , I t h i n k y o u s a i d t w o is th a t r i g h t? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t a r e y o u a b l e to t e l l m e t h a t w a s t a n g ib le t h a t Tr a n s n e t g a i n e d f o r p a y i n g t h e k i n d s o f a m o u n ts t h a t i t p a i d ? M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n w i th b r a n d in g i t ’s d i ff e r e n t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e ’s n o t a n g i b le t h i n g . M R P H AT L A N E : I j u s t w a n t to e x p l a i n , s o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n I w a n t t o explain. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E : I t ’s d i ff e r e n t o n e , l ik e I ’v e e x p la i n e d e a r li e r, y o u tr y t o b u il d th e t o p o f m in d , y o u r b r a n d t o b e to p o f m i n d , y o u a ls o w a n t th e – Page 161 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 f o r t h e p u b lic t o s e e t h a t y o u a r e p a r t o f d r iv in g t h o u g h t le a d e r s h i p . Yo u n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e t o h a v e a Tr a n s n e t s p e a k e r s p e a k i n g th e r e , w h e n y o u ’r e d r i v i n g t h o u g h t l e a d e r s h ip , y o u ’r e s a y i n g th e p u b lic o r t h e c o m m u n i ty m u s t k n o w t h e t o p ic a l is s u e s a n d y o u a r e g o i n g to b r i n g t h a t t o t h e ir a t te n ti o n a n d n o w w i t h t h is p a r t n e r s h i p w i t h S A B C I t h i n k t h a t – t o m e th a t ’s w h a t s w a y e d m e b e c a u s e y o u ’r e g e t ti n g a ir ti m e th a t is n o t w o r t h f o r t h i s m o n e y. Yo u ’r e g e t ti n g t w o h o u r s o f p l a y o r w i th Tr a n s n e t b a n n e r s b e h i n d b e in g s e e n b e y o n d S o u t h A fr ic a i n t o o th e r A f r ic a n c o u n tr i e s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o w h a t Mr P h a tl a n e t h e y s e e t h e b a n n e r s t h e y s e e th e n a m e Tr a n s n e t, t h e l o g o a n d s o w h a t , i t ’s n o t a p r iv a te b u s i n e s s , e v e n i f i t ’s p u b l ic y o u ’r e n o t tr y in g to g e t th e p u b l ic to b u y a n y th in g , t h a t ’s w h a t I ’ m s tr u g g l in g t o g e t, t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e n y o u s p e n d s o m u c h a n d m a y b e y o u ’ r e n o t r e s p o n s i b l e b e c a u s e y o u ’r e n o t a t t h e le v e l o f m a k in g d e c i s i o n s b u t I’ m a s k i n g y o u t h e s e q u e s ti o n s , j u s t a s I w a s a s k in g t h e e a r li e r w i tn e s s , b e c a u s e I ’ m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d . I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d a n d p u t m y s e lf in th e p o s i ti o n o f p e o p l e w h o s a id , t h e s e k i n d s o f a m o u n ts m u s t b e s p e n t , t a x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y m u s t b e s p e n t o n t h e s e k in d s o f th in g s . I f y o u e x p l a i n , m a y b e I ’l l u n d e r s t a n d s o 20 d o n ’t g e t fr u s tr a te d m a y b e i t ’s ju s t b e c a u s e I’ m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d . I m e a n Tr a n s n e t is a p a r a s t a t a l, is a S O E . M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: I t i s t h e r e fo r v a r io u s r e a s o n s if y o u a s k a lo t o f p e o p l e i n th e k i n d s o f p l a c e s w h e r e I g r e w u p t h e y w il l th in k , w h e n y o u s a y Tr a n s n e t, th e y ’l l t h i n k a b o u t t r a in s , t h e y ’ ll t h i n k a b o u t tr a i n s y o u Page 162 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 k n o w, th e y m i g h t n o t k n o w a lo t o f o t h e r t h i n g s . S o m a y b e p a r t o f m y d i ff ic u l ty i s t h a t I’ m a ls o – m a y b e I h a v e n ’t m o v e d t o o f a r fr o m t h a t s o I’ m – s o w h e n I t h in k a b o u t Tr a n s n e t I’ m t h i n k i n g o k a y n o w, w h a t’s i m p o r t a n t i s t h a t Tr a n s n e t m u s t s e r v ic e p e o p le p r o p e r ly, y o u k n o w, p e o p l e m u s t g e t t r a in s t h a t r u n p r o p e r ly b u t o f c o u r s e Tr a n s n e t d o e s m u c h m o r e t h a n t h a t b u t th a t ’s w h e r e I’ m c o m i n g fr o m , d o y o u w a n t to g iv e i t a tr y a g a i n t o m a k e m e u n d e r s ta n d ? M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: 10 I ’ m c e r t a i n ly n o t – m y m i n d is n o t c lo s e d I’ m j u s t tr y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d , m a y b e I s h o u l d d o s o m e c o u r s e i n b r a n d i n g , branding 101. M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k w h i l e y o u a r e e x p l a i n in g y o u a r e e v e n a s s is t in g m e m a y b e to b e a b l e t o e x p la in s o m e . I t ’s n o t c o n c l u s iv e th e r e c o u l d b e m o r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E : L e t m e g iv e y o u o n e e x a m p l e fr o m t h e b r a n d i n g e x e r c is e p o i n t o f v i e w. T h e r e ’s a c o n f u s i o n o u ts i d e w h e r e p e o p le s ti ll r e g a r d Tr a n s n e t a s S p o o r n e t , t h a t e x e r c is e is n o t n e c e s s a r il y g o i n g t o h a p p e n o n i t ’s o w n f o r p e o p l e t o f o r g e t o r r e m e m b e r, o r t h is . Th e r e ’s 20 c o n fu s i o n a l s o o p e o p l e t h i n k i n g Tr a n s n e t is P R A S A s o a n y t h in g th a t h a p p e n s a t a s t a ti o n t h e y ’ ll s e n d c o m p la i n ts o r w h a t e v e r to u s . S o a s c o m m u n ic a ti o n y o u a ls o h a v e t h a t r e s p o n s i b i li ty, w h il e y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s i b i li ty to c u s to m e r s b u t y o u a l s o h a v e a r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o c o m m u n i ti e s t o e d u c a t e a n d to i n f o r m t h e m s o t h a t w h e n th e y s e e , f o r in s t a n c e w h a t y o u d o t o c o m m u n i ti e s to [i n d is t in c t] i t ’s Tr a n s n e t t h e y Page 163 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a r e a b l e to a s s o c i a te t h e b r a n d w i t h g o o d w o r k . S o t h e t h in k i n g t h a t w e h a d , e s p e c ia ll y fr o m m e w h e n I t a lk a b o u t th e e x p o s u r e o n T V, i t’s c lo s e ly a s s o c i a te d w i t h t h a t t o s a y, y o u ’r e p u t t in g t h is b r a n d a w a r e n e s s ju s t to b e o n t o p o f p e o p le ’s m i n d s s o t h e y k n o w t h is c o m p a n y t h a t tr a n s p o r ts g o o d s , it – th a t tr a n s p o r t g o o d s w h ic h w e th o u g h t w a s S p o o r n e t is Tr a n s n e t b u t a ls o t h e y ’r e – t h e y ’r e n o t o n ly d e a l in g w it h t h e h a r d c o r e f a r i n g o f g o o d s b u t t h e y ’ r e a ls o a r e e n c o u r a g in g d i a l o g u e in t h e c o u n tr y, t h e y ’r e s u p p o r ti n g g o o d c o m m u n i ty s h i p w it h in . So as c o m m u n ic a ti o n i ts j u s t u n f o r t u n a te t h a t p a r t o f u s i s t o s e l l t h a t s i m p l e , 10 t h a t l i g h t k in d o f i n f o r m a t io n t o c o m m u n i t ie s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Mr P h a t la n e I ’ m g o in g t o c o m e b a c k t o h e v a lu e t h a t y o u w e r e a b l e to g e t o u t o f t h e b u s i n e s s b r e a k fa s ts b e c a u s e y o u r a ffi d a v i t in d ic a t e s t h a t t o w a r d s th e e n d o f t h e p e r i o d o f t h e s e b u s i n e s s breakfasts your approach changed when the management changed w i t h i n y o u r a r e a a n d m u c h m o v e v a l u e , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ff id a v i t w a s a b l e t o b e t a k e n fr o m t h e s e e v e n ts , b u t I’ m j u s t f la g g i n g f o r y o u , I h a v e n ’t l e f t t h i s t o p ic b e c a u s e I w ill w a n t to r e t u r n to i t w h e n w e c a n c o n tr a s t w h a t Tr a n s n e t w a s g e tt i n g a t t h is t i m e a n d w h a t i t g o t 20 u l ti m a t e ly b e c a u s e I t h i n k i t w i ll b e a u s e fu l i ll u s tr a ti o n i n d u e c o u r s e t o c o n c l u d e th is a s p e c t b u t i f w e c o u l d j u s t r e tu r n t o t h e m e m o a t p a g e 1 8 t h a t i s a m e m o r a n d u m y o u i n d ic a te d t h a t y o u w e r e i n v o l v e d i n p r e p a r in g a n d y o u i n d ic a t e d t h a t it r e l a t e d t o s p o n s o r s h ip s a n d y o u w e r e c o n f ir m i n g fo r u s t h a t it w a s 1 6 s e s s io n s t h a t w o u l d c o s t n o w a m il li o n r a n d p e r s e s s io n a n d s o th e t o t a l w a s R 1 6 m il li o n . I f y o u g o to Page 164 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 p a g e 2 0 , c o u l d y o u t e l l u s w h o , u l ti m a t e l y a p p r o v e d th a t th is c o n tr a c t b e e n t e r e d i n to ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e th e n Mr B r i a n M o le f e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s th e d a te o n w h ic h h e a p p r o v e d it ? M R P H AT L A N E : 2 3 r d o f M a r c h 2 0 1 2 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w i f w e j u s t g o b a c k t o y o u r e v id e n c e e a r l i e r, t h a t is w h e n t h e 2 0 11 d e le g a ti o n o f a u t h o r it y w a s s t il l o p e r a t iv e , i s t h a t 10 correct? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s I t h i n k … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e t h a t w a s u n t il t h e e n d o f A p r i l 2 0 1 2 , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f I r e c a ll , t h a t d e l e g a t io n o f a u t h o r i t y, w e d o n ’t n e e d t o g o to i t n o w, b u t it g a v e t h e G r o u p C h ie f Ex e c u ti v e a u t h o r i ty over s p o n s o r s h ip s up to R 3 0 m i ll io n within a y e a r, c u m u la t iv e ly, is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R P H AT L A N E : It ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o d id i t r a is e a n y fl a g s fo r y o u th a t Mr M o le f e w a s a p p r o v in g t h i s s p o n s o r s h i p a t R 1 6 m ill io n w i t h i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h a t year? M R P H AT L A N E : N o l ik e I s a i d , m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty w a s ju s t t o p u t t h i s t o g e th e r a n d t h e n I g i v e i t t o M a n a g e r s t h e n t h e y l o o k a t i t , i t h a s to g o to the next person for approval. Page 165 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t g iv e u s a s e n s e , i f y o u m a y, w h a t d i d R 1 6 m i ll io n lo o k l ik e r e la t iv e to th e r e s t o f t h e b u d g e t t h a t y o u r d iv is io n had, do you have a sense of that? M R P H AT L A N E : W e ll I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r h o w m u c h t h e b u d g e t w a s b u t i t w a s – t h is w a s a b i g c h u n k , l ik e I s a i d w e w e r e d o i n g s m a ll e r s p o n s o r s h i p t h e n w h o h a d r e c e n tl y j o i n e d b u t w e w e r e d o in g a h u n d r e d or what so when TNA came it was this big kind of a budget – amount t h a t w e h a d t o p a y o r to s p o n s o r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 10 agreement w h ic h I I f y o u t h e n g o o v e r to p a g e 2 1 y o u ’l l s e e t h e understand fr o m your a ffi d a v i t was th e n s u b s e q u e n t ly c o n c l u d e d , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R P H AT L A N E : P a g e 1 6 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A p o l o g i e s i f y o u s t a r t a t 2 1 t h a t ’s t h e f ir s t p a g e of an agreement. M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d if y o u g o to p a g e 2 7 i t w a s s ig n e d o n t h e 7 t h a n d t h e 1 4 t h o f M a y, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A m I c o r r e c t t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e p r e v io u s ly w a s in t e r m s o f p r o c e s s , th e m e m o r a n d u m w o u ld b e p r e p a r e d , i t w o u l d t h e n g o t h r o u g h t h e v a r io u s le v e ls u p to y o u r s u p e r io r, Mr S i g o n y e la a n d t h e n u l ti m a t e l y f o r a p p r o v a l b y t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M R P H AT L A N E : Yo u ’ r e c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n t h e r e a f t e r a c o n tr a c t w o u ld b e p u t t o g e th e r a n d s i g n e d is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 166 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 M R P H AT L A N E : I t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t ’s j u s t lo o k a t p a g e 2 1 , w h a t is t h e ti tl e o f t h is a g r e e m e n t ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t s a y s , S p o n s o r s h ip A g r e e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n I ’ d li k e t o … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second, can we go back to page 27, I s e e t h a t t h e p e r s o n w h o s i g n e d fo r Tr a n s n e t w a s A c t i n g G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e , d o y o u k n o w w h o w a s t h a t ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s I f o u n d o u t M r C h a i r p e r s o n i t ’s M s N o n g u g o l e g o 10 S h is h i . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u , a n d i t w a s a t a t i m e , it s e e m s w h e n M r B r i a n M o l e f e w a s a lr e a d y C h i e f E x e c u tiv e s o h e m u s t h a v e b e e n away or something? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n c o r r e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s , a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t t h e a p p r o v a l w a s g i v e n , t h a t ’s p a g e 2 0 , b a c k i n M a r c h o f 2 0 1 2 , is t h a t r ig h t ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 20 A n d t h e n t h e v e r s io n o f t h e c o n t e n t th a t ’s u l ti m a t e ly s i g n e d o c c u r s in M a y 2 0 1 2 n o t o n t h i s o c c a s io n s i g n e d b y M r M o le f e b u t b y Ms S h is h i , is th a t r i g h t ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O k a y b u t d i d i t d e p e n d o n M r M o le f e ’s p r i o r approval? M R P H AT L A N E : F o r u s t o h a v e a c o n tr a c t g o in g o u t t o th e o t h e r p a r ty Page 167 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t h e r e m u s t b e , a lr e a d y a n a p p r o v a l b e c a u s e y o u n e e d to h a v e th e m e m o r a n d u m d o n e a n d t h e n y o u a r e a b l e to w r i te a l e t te r t h a t in f o r m s t h e o t h e r p a r t y t o s a y, w e ’ r e a p p r o v i n g y o u r p r o p o s a l a n d t h i s a g r e e m e n t w ill f o l lo w, t h e n w e w i ll s e n d th e a g r e e m e n t t o th e p a r ty fir s t t o s i g n , t o c o m e t o u s fo r s i g n i n g a ls o a n d t h e n fo r a r c h iv i n g . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u Mr P h a tl a n e . T h e r e ’s o n e a s p e c t o f t h is a g r e e m e n t I ’d li k e to d r a w y o u r a t t e n ti o n to b e c a u s e i t s a th e m e t h a t w e a r e s e e i n g e m e r g e i n th e c o u r s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h i s C o m m i s s i o n i n r e l a t i o n to t h e s e TN A c o n tr a c t s a n d y o u ’l l fi n d t h e 10 r e l e v a n t c l a u s e a t p a g e 2 5 w i t h i n th is a g r e e m e n t . Do you see there t h a t th e r e ’s a c l a u s e o n th is p a g e t h a t’s b e e n s t r u c k o u t ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n I s e e i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s t h a t c la u s e b e f o r e i t w a s d e l e te d ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t w a s a c l a u s e o n e a r ly t e r m i n a t io n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d id it p r o v id e ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t p r o v i d e d t h a t Tr a n s n e t r e s e r v e s th e r ig h t t o t e r m in a t e t h is a g r e e m e n t u p o n g i v i n g 3 0 d a y s ’ n o t ic e t o T N A m e d i a , f u r th e r t h a t Tr a n s n e t w i ll b e e n t it l e d t o t e r m in a t e th is a g r e e m e n t i n w r i t in g fo r f a il u r e o f T N A to p e r fo r m i ts r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u k n o w w h y t h a t w a s d e le t e d ? M R P H AT L A N E : I d o n ’ t k n o w, I p r e p a r e d t h is a n d i t w il l g o – i t w e n t w i t h t h e m e m o s o th a t y o u d o n ’ t h a v e th e G C s i g n i n g t h e m e m o a n d t h e n l a t e r y o u ta k e , a g a i n t h e c o n tr a c t f o r s i g n i n g , w e p r e p a r e d t o g e th e r b u t t h e n e x t t i m e I s a w i t s i g n e d , i t w a s w h e n i t w a s o n m y d e s k s i g n e d a n d w i t h a l l th is c a n c e l l a t i o n a n d a l l w h a t I d i d w a s to Page 168 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a r c h i v e i t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Te l l u s a b o u t , o r d i n a r i ly, in t h e s e ty p e s o f c o n tr a c ts , w o u l d t h e r e o r d i n a r il y b e a n e a r l y t e r m i n a t io n c l a u s e in c l u d e d ? M R P H AT L A N E : T h is is a s ta n d a r d – i t ’s a Tr a n s n e t s ta n d a r d c o n tr a c t w h ic h I fo u n d th e r e a n d i t ’s i m p o r t a n t th a t i t h a s a t e r m i n a t io n c l a u s e b e c a u s e i t p r o t e c ts Tr a n s n e t i n c a s e p e r f o r ma n c e i s n o t u p t o s ta n d a r d . S o t h is o n e , I m a d e s u r e th a t i t h a s – i t ’s a s t a n d a r d c o n tr a c t , i t h a s a l l t h e e l e m e n ts b u t w h e n i t w a s s i g n e d – b e c a u s e n o r m a lly it w il l c o m e 10 b a c k to m e fo r m e t o s e n d i t o u t fir s t t o t h e p a r ti e s , s o t h a t t h e y s i g n a n d t h e n I’ ll ta k e it to t h e o ff ic e o f t h e G C b u t t h e n I r e a l is e d i t w a s s ig n e d a t t h e p a r t ic u l a r t i m e a n d w i t h t h is t e r m i n a t i o n c l a u s e c a n c e ll e d out. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s i g n a t u r e o r in i ti a l li n g n e x t t o th e – t o c l a u s e 4 . 1 a n d 11 o n e o f th o s e s ig n a t u r e s a p p e a r t o m y e y e t o b e t h a t o f t h e A c ti n g G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e is th a t r i g h t? M R P H AT L A N E : N o i t ’s t h a t o f M s S h is i w h o w a s a c ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I’ m s a y in g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s o i t is ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s i t is . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R P H AT L A N E : A n d t h e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e o t h e r o n e ? M R P H AT L A N E : T h e o th e r o n e i s t h a t o f M r H o w e fr o m T N A . Page 169 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. T h e r e s e e m s t o b e – t h e r e a r e n o w i tn e s s e s w h o w i t n e s s e d t h e s i g n i n g o f th is a g r e e m e n t, i t s e e m s , a m I r i g h t ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t ’s t r u e C h a ir p e r s o n , I d o n ’t s e e w i tn e s s e s w h e n i t c a m e lik e th is b e c a u s e y o u ’ ll s e e a s w e g o o n h o w m y a g r e e m e n ts w ill lo o k l ik e , th e y a r e s t a n d a r d t h e r e w a s a t e m p l a t e w h e r e y o u h a v e t h e m a in p a r ti e s , y o u h a v e t h e t w o w i t n e s s e s s o I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w i t changed. CHAIRPERSON: B u t w h e n y o u p r e p a r e d it a n d s e n t i t u p s t a ir s a s i t w e r e f o r s ig n a t u r e , i t h a d w i t n e s s e s o r y o u a r e n o t s u r e ? 10 M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t e v e n s e e p a g e 1 2 w h e r e I’ ll w r it e w h o a r e t h e p a r t ie s b e c a u s e I’ ll n o r m a l ly a ls o w r i te t h e n a m e s o f t h e p a r t i e s t o s a y, fr o m t h e T N A w h o ’s t h e C O O , w h o ’s a c c o u n t a b l e fr o m t h e s i d e o f … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h e r e m a y b e p a g e 1 2 m i s s i n g j a . M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e s p a c e fo r w i tn e s s e s w il l n o t b e o n p a g e 1 2 it w o u ld b e o n t h e la s t p a g e w h i c h i s 1 3 , is t h a t r ig h t b e c a u s e t h e w i t n e s s e s d o n ’t c o m e b e f o r e th e s ig n a to r i e s . M R P H AT L A N E : 20 I h e a r y o u C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n ’ t a ls o s e e w h e r e th e w i t n e s s e s s ig n e d . CHAIRPERSON: But are you sure that the one you sent to them did h a v e p r o v is io n f o r w i tn e s s e s o n t h e l a s t p a g e , o r y o u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t? M R P H AT L A N E : C h a ir p e r s o n l e t m e s a y I’ m n o t s u r e b u t r e m e m b e r t h i s is a t e m p l a t e t h a t Tr a n s n e t h a d , i t ’s n o t a t e m p l a t e t h a t I c r e a te d . Page 170 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: It was there? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s s o f o r m e I d o n o t th in k t h a t Tr a n s n e t w o u ld h a v e r e a l ly – I ’ m n o t C h a ir p e r s o n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s s i n c e t h e ti m e t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n a t Tr a n s n e t h a v e y o u e v e r h a d a s p o n s o r s h ip a g r e e m e n t s i g n e d t h a t d i d n ’ t h a v e w i t n e s s e s , s p a c e s f o r w i t n e s s e s , i s i t s o m e th in g th a t d o e s h a p p e n ? M R P H AT L A N E : N o th a t ’s w h y I’ m s a y i n g a s w e m o v e f o r w a r d , I h a v e those t e m p la t e s that I r e m e m b e r, t h is is how the t e m p l a te … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ’ ll tr y a n d g e t p a g e 1 2 s o m e w h e r e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d , t h e r e w a s a p a g e 1 2 w e p ic k e d u p i n a la t e r a g r e e m e n t m is s i n g b u t w e s e e m e d t o h a v e m i s s e d t h a t t h is o n e w a s o m i t t e d s o I’ v e ju s t a s k e d o u r i n v e s ti g a to r t o a s s i s t u s t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I f I c a n t h e n t a k e y o u , Mr P h a t la n e to p a g e 3 0 a n d I ’d j u s t li k e to o r i e n t a t e o u r s e lv e s i n ti m e b e c a u s e t h is is w h e r e t h e d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i ty b e c o m e s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t . 20 Yo u ’ ll r e c a ll t h a t w h e n Mr M o l e f e a p p r o v e d t h e l a s t R 1 6 m il li o n s p o n s o r s h i p a g r e e m e n t, t h a t w a s i n M a r c h o f 2 0 1 2 a n d th a t w a s a m o n th o r s o b e f o r e w e m o v e d t o t h e n e w d e l e g a t i o n o f a u t h o r i ty p r o v is io n s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t Mr P h a tl a n e ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w a t p a g e 3 0 w e h a v e a d o c u m e n t , w h a t i s Page 171 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t h is d o c u m e n t ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t ’s a n o t h e r p r o p o s a l fr o m t h e TN A , N e w A g e y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R i g h t a n d w h a t is i ts d a t e ? M R P H AT L A N E : 7 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o n o w w e a r e i n th e t i m e w h e n t h e s e c o n d d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r i t y, t h e 2 0 1 2 d e l e g a ti o n o f a u t h o r it y a p p li e s , is th a t r ig h t ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p l e a s e r e m i n d u s w h a t w a s t h e G r o u p C h ie f 10 E x e c u t iv e ’s limit under th e 2012 d e l e g a t io n of a u t h o r i ty for sponsorships. M R P H AT L A N E : R 1 0 m il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R 1 0 m i ll io n ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t h a d i t b e e n p r e v io u s ly ? M R P H AT L A N E : R 3 0 m il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u , s o t h is , y o u s a id w a s a p r o p o s a l d a t e d th e 7 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 3 fr o m TN A a n d p l e a s e ju s t r e a d f o r u s w h a t the heading was? 20 M R P H AT L A N E : O n p a g e 3 1 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O n 3 0 , th e ir p r o p o s a l . M R P H AT L A N E : “ Th e N e w A g e B u s i n e s s B r e a k fa s t S p o n s o r s h ip ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d i f y o u g o t o t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h t h e r e , w il l y o u r e a d t h a t l a s t p a r a g r a p h i n t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r I’ m tr y i n g t o c a tc h u p w it h y o u Page 172 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a s w e ll , w h a t w a s t h e p a g e ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I’ m s o r r y w e a r e a t p a g e 3 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, t h a n k y o u . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t , w e ’v e b e e n t o l d , is a p r o p o s a l l e tt e r r e c e i v e d fr o m T N A . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : the d e l e g a ti o n p e r io d D a te d t h e 7 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 3 , s o w e ’r e n o w i n where th e limit of the Chief E x e c u tiv e S p o n s o r s h i p a u t h o r i t y i s R 1 0 m il li o n , i t ’s d r o p p e d fr o m t h e p r e v i o u s 10 R 3 0 m i ll io n a n d Mr P h a t l a n e w a s i n d ic a ti n g t h is w a s r e c e i v e d fr o m T N A it w a s a p r o p o s a l f o r th e N e w A g e B u s in e s s Br e a k fa s t s p o n s o r s h i p s a n d M r P h a tl a n e I a s k e d if y o u w o u ld r e a d t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h in t o t h e record. M R P H AT L A N E : “ W e t h a n k Tr a n s n e t S t o c k L t d f o r s u p p o r t in g t h e s e b u s i n e s s b r i e fi n g s o v e r th e p a s t t w o y e a r s a n d w e l o o k f o r w a r d t o a n o n g o i n g m u t u a lly b e n e f ic ia l r e l a ti o n s h i p . I t is w i t h p l e a s u r e th a t w e s u b m it t h e f o l lo w i n g p r o p o s a l f o r t h e p e r i o d 1 A p r il 2 0 1 3 t o 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 f o r s p o n s o r s h i p o f 2 0 business 20 e x c lu d in g b r ie f in g s VAT and for a total agency in v e s t m e n t commission. of The R 2 0 m il li o n proposal p r o v i d e s a s u m m a r y o f k e y b e n e f i ts t o th e s p o n s o r a n d ill u s tr a t e s th e s tr o n g r e t u r n o n i n v e s t m e n t, K in d r e g a r d s ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n if w e g o o v e r th e p a g e is a n o t h e r m e m o r a n d u m i t ’s t h e n e x t o n e in th e s e q u e n c e o f th e b i g c o n tr a c ts f o r w h ic h a m e m o r a n d u m w a s p r e p a r e d . D i d y o u p r e p a r e t h i s Page 173 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 memorandum? M R P H AT L A N E : T h e o n e o n p a g e 3 1 ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s I a s s is t e d y e s , o n t h i s o n e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Now can y o u ju s t h e l p u s w i t h th e s u b je c t – w e ll f ir s t o f a l l t h e d a t e o f i t , w h a t is t h e d a te o f t h i s m e m o r a n d u m ? M R P H AT L A N E : T h e d a t e i s 11 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t o w h o m I is i t a d d r e s s e d ? M R P H AT L A N E : 10 It ’s a d d r e s s e d to Mr Br ia n M o l e f e , G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d p l e a s e r e a d t h e s u b je c t f o r u s . M R P H AT LA N E : “ R e q u e s t to r e n e w t h e S A B C N e w A g e B u s i n e s s B r i e fi n g P a r t n e r s h ip ” . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w w h a t I’ m i n t e r e s te d i n t h e r e , Mr P h a t l a n e is i n a l l t h e p r e v i o u s m e m o r a n d a t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n , t h is ty p e o f c o n tr a c ti n g w i t h T N A h a s b e e n d e s c r ib e d a s a s p o n s o r s h i p b u t n o w i t ’s b e i n g d e s c r ib e d a s a p a r tn e r s h ip . W h y d i d th a t l a n g u a g e c h a n g e ? M R P H AT L A N E : W e l l I h a d a d is c u s s io n w i th t h e G M b e c a u s e I’ m r e s p o n s i b l e fo r s p o n s o r s h i p m a n a g e m e n t n o w w h y s h o u l d w e u s e t h i s , 20 h e s a i d , n o u s e p a r t n e r s h i p a n d n o w t h e r e w a s n o c l a r i t y a s to w h y a n d y o u s e e y o u ’ ll a s k y o u d o n ’ t g e t t h e a n s w e r, e i t h e r y o u ’r e d i s m is s e d a n d th e n y o u n e e d to g o a n d w r i t e . S o w h e n I w e n t I w r o t e a s a s p o n s o r s h i p b e c a u s e I d i d n o t k n o w a n y p a r tn e r s h ip o r a d o c u m e n t t h a t g u i d e s o n p a r tn e r s h ip s o I w e n t o n d e f a u l t o f m a k i n g th is a s p o n s o r s h i p lik e th e p r o p o s a l w a s s a y in g . Page 174 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n w h y d i d i t c h a n g e t o p a r t n e r s h i p th e n ? M R P H AT L A N E : I w a s t o l d to s a y, I t o ld y o u w e d o n ’ t u s e [ in d i s ti n c t ] d o n ’t u s e s p o n s o r s h i p , u s e p a r t n e r s h i p a n d I h a d to c h a n g e i t to s u it w h a t m y m a n a g e r … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t g o v e r n s p a r t n e r s h i p s i n Tr a n s n e t ? M R P H AT L A N E : To m e I d o n ’ t k n o w a n y d o c u m e n t , le t m e s a y i t ’s n o t t h e r e I w i ll n o t s e e n a d o c u m e n t th a t g o v e r n s p a r tn e r s h i p s . S o to m e s o m e t i m e s I t a k e it , i t ’s a w o r d th a t is u s e d l o o s e l y t o m e a n e it h e r s p o n s o r s h i p o r w h a t e v e r a n y o t h e r p e r s o n w a n t s t o j u s ti fy b u t I k n o w 10 s p o n s o r s h i p b e c a u s e w e h a d a d r a f t s p o n s o r s h ip d o c u m e n t – p o li c y b y then. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t w a s t h e v a l u e o f t h is c o n tr a c t ? M R P H AT L A N E : T h e v a l u e w a s – t h e y w a n t e d R 2 0 mi ll i o n a n d th e n h e s a i d , n o w e c a n ’ t g iv e t h e m R 2 0 m il li o n m a k e it R 1 5 m i lli o n t h e n y o u g o a n d a l t e r. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h o w a s h e , in t h a t ? M R P H AT L A N E : T h e G M , M r S i g o n y e l a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h o a p p r o v e d t h e R 1 5 m i ll io n a t p a g e 3 2 ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t w a s a p p r o v e d b y M r M o le f e . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Now can I just be clear what date did he approve it? M R P H AT L A N E : A p r i l 4 , 2 0 1 3 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n A p r il 2 0 1 3 d i d M r M o l e fe h a v e t h e d e l e g a t e d a u t h o r i ty t o a p p r o v e a s p o n s o r s h i p f o r R 1 5 m il li o n ? M R P H AT L A N E : W e l l a c c o r d i n g t o th e D O A [i n d i s t i n c t ] w e w e n t t h r o u g h Page 175 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 he did not have that…[intervenes]. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s t h e li m i t to h is a u t h o r i ty t o c o n c l u d e a p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t f o r Tr a n s n e t? M R P H AT L A N E : I t w a s R 1 0 m il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o s o r r y t h e l i m i t o n a p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t w h a t li m i t , i f a n y a p p l ie d t o Mr M o l e fe ’s a u t h o r i ty to c o n c l u d e p a r t n e r s h i p s f o r Tr a n s n e t ? M R P H AT L A N E : No I only know about sponsorships I don’t know p a r t n e r s h i p s w h i c h w a s R 1 0 m il li o n b y t h a t ti m e . 10 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W h a t w a s R 1 0 m i ll i o n b y t h a t ti m e ? M R P H AT L A N E : I’ m t a l k i n g a b o u t th e l i m i t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E : O n t h e D O A . ADV K AT E HOFMEYR: Ye s p r e v io u s – but that dealt with sponsorships, correct? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I ’ m a s k i n g , w a s t h e r e a n y l i m i t o n th e a u t h o r i ty o f t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e t o c o n c l u d e a p a r t n e r s h ip a g r e e m e n t? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a y s h e d o e s n ’ t n o w. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h th a n k y o u , s o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: He says he only knows about sponsorships. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t s u p e r t h a n k y o u , I t h o u g h t – w e k e p t g o i n g b a c k to R 1 0 m i ll i o n li m i t s o I w a s s c a r e d th a t , t h a t w a s g o i n g t o … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . Page 176 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 C H A I R P E R S O N : D id I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c tl y ? M R P H AT L A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y, c a n I j u s t a s k y o u , d o y o u h a v e – d i d y o u e v e r g e t t o k n o w w h y, in r e g a r d t o s p o n s o r s h i p s t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e ’s d e l e g a t i o n o f a u t h o r it y w a s r e d u c e d s o s u b s t a n t i a l ly f r o m R 3 0 m i ll io n to R 1 0 m i ll io n ? M R P H AT L A N E : I t ’s a n e x e r c is e t h a t c o m p a n y s e c r e ta r y w il l a lw a y s d o , I t h in k s o m e ti m e s if t h e r e ’s s o m e b o d y fr o m t h e o ffic e o f t h e G C E t o g o a n d s u p p o r t t h a t b e c a u s e th e y n o r m a lly r e d u c e b e c a u s e o f e i t h e r 10 m o r a t o r i u m o r w h a t e v e r o r e i t h e r th e r e v e n u e s a r e g e t ti n g l o w. S o s o m e b o d y f r o m t h e o ffi c e o f th e G C E b e c a u s e i t ’s c a n ’ t b e t h e G C E h i m s e l f [i n d is t in c t] g o a n d s a y w h e t h e r d o e s i t m a k e s e n s e o r n o t , i f n o t , i f th e r e ’s n o p r e s e n ta t io n m a d e t h e y c o n c l u d e a n d t a k e i t to t h e B o a r d f o r r a ti f ic a t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f w e c a n m o v e t o t h e a g r e e m e n t i ts e lf w h ic h w a s c o n c l u d e d , y o u ’l l f in d t h a t a t p a g e 3 3 a n d ju s t – t h e d e s c r ip t io n o f t h is a g r e e m e n t i n c a p i t a l s a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h a t d o c u m e n t , w h a t is t h i s a g r e e m e n t n o w c a l l e d ? 20 M R P H AT L A N E : I t ’s n o w c a ll e d , B r a n d i n g a n d A d v e r tis i n g P a r t n e r s h i p Agreement. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t h a d th e p r e v i o u s o n e b e e n c a ll e d , d o y o u r e c a ll ? M R P H AT L A N E : S p o n s o r s h ip A g r e e m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h e r e a r e tw o a s p e c ts o f th e t e r m s Page 177 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 o f th is a g r e e m e n t I’ d j u s t l ik e t o h i g h li g h t a n d h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e o n M r P h a t la n e , t h e f ir s t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 3 7 i n te r ms o f Tr a n s n e t ’s commitment under the agreement. S o I w o u ld l ik e , i n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v id e n c e to s e e , h o w th e o b li g a ti o n s o f Tr a n s n e t b e c a m e m o r e o n e r o u s o v e r ti m e . Yo u ’ ll s e e a t c la u s e 7 o n p a g e 3 7 , w h a t d o e s c l a u s e 7 .2 p r o v i d e ? M R P H AT L A N E: I t p r o v id e s Tr a n s n e t ’s c o m m i t m e n t . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : R ig h t a n d 7 . 2 ? M R P H AT L A N E: T h a t p a r t ie s a g r e e t h a t t h e c o s t o f t h e e v e n t s h a ll b e 10 k e p t a t th e s u m o f R 1 2 0 0 0 . 0 0 – R 1 2 m i ll io n e x c l u d i n g VAT. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d a t 7 . 3 ? M R P H AT L A N E : A d d i ti o n a l R 3 m i l li o n e x c l u d i n g VAT w o u l d b e m a d e a v a i la b le . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d c a r r y o n . M R P H AT L A N E: A n d u ti li s e a s a n d w h e n r e q u ir e d b a s e d o n m u t u a l a g r e e m e n t b y b o t h p a r t ie s a n d a s a p p r o v e d b y Tr a n s n e t G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e o r h i s d e s i g n a te . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n a t 7 .4 . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e t o l d h o w p a y m e n t is g o in g to w o r k u n d e r th e a g r e e m e n t. W h a t d o e s i t p r o v i d e ? M R P H AT L A N E: T h a t p a y m e n t a s i n 7 .2 a b o v e w il l b e m a d e b y Tr a n s n e t 7 d a y s a f t e r t h is a g r e e m e n t h a s b e e n s ig n e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o j u s t h e l p m e w i t h t h a t . W h a t is h a p p e n i n g a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e s e a g r e e m e n t s i s Tr a n s n e t is c o n tr a c t in g f o r a y e a r Page 178 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 o f b u s in e s s b r e a k f a s ts , is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R P H AT L A N E: I t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i n t h i s c a s e i t w a s c o n tr a c ti n g f o r 1 5 o f t h e m a n d it w o u ld b e p a i d i n t w o tr a n c h e s R 1 2 m il li o n in i ti a l ly a n d t h e n R 3 m i ll io n d e p e n d e n t o n a d is c r e t io n i t s e e m s t h a t t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e w o u l d e x e r c i s e , is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R P H AT L A N E: T h e c o n tr a c t s a y s li k e t h a t y e s C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . And how about payment. When was p a y m e n t o f t h is R 1 2 m il li o n g o i n g t o b e m a d e t o T N A ? 10 M R P H AT L A N E: W e ll l e t m e j u s t a ls o c l a r if y. I prepared the m e m o r a n d u m b u t I s e e t h e c o n tr a c t a s y o u s e e i t s a y s Br a n d i n g a n d A d v e r t is i n g p a r tn e r s h ip . I t is p r e p a r e d b y s o m e b o d y e l s e . B e c a u s e i t i s m o v i n g a w a y f r o m s p o n s o r s h ip . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . M R P H AT L A N E: A s y o u s e e i t s a y s Br a n d i n g . I m i g h t – I w il l a n s w e r o n w h a t it m e a n t – m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o n 7 d a y s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. M R P H AT LA N E : B e c a u s e l a te r w e – I a ls o – w e p a i d t h e m a c c o r d in g t o that. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R P H AT LA N E : B u t th is c o n tr a c t i t w a s p r e p a r e d b y s o m e b o d y fr o m o u r t e a m . I c a n n o t r e c a l l w h o th a t is . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t . M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s b e c a u s e th is i s n o t m y – t h e w o r d i n g t h a t I w o u ld n o r m a l ly u s e . B u t I c a n t a lk t o t h e 7 d a y s . L a te r w e w e r e a d v is e d b y Page 179 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t h e – b y t h e G M M r Si g o n y e l a t o s a y a p p a r e n tly h e h a d a m e e t in g e i t h e r w i t h t h e m I d o n o t k n o w b u t i t w a s k i n d o f li k e th e r e w a s a n e n g a g e m e n t . I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r it w a s te l e p h o n ic a l ly o r w h a t. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d s o r r y is t h e m T N A ? M R P H AT L A N E: O h T N A – ja . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M R P H AT L A N E: W it h th e s e c o ll e a g u e s f r o m T N A . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E: To s a y n o w th e y w a n t u s t o p a y w it h in 7 d a y s . I d o 10 n o t k n o w t h e r a t io n a l e w a s e i t h e r t h e is s u e s o f o v e r h e a d s o r w h a te v e r b u t i t w a s – h e w a s m a k i n g u s a w a r e t o s a y th a t is g o in g t o b e th e w a y f o r w a r d . W e h a v e to p a y th e m w it h in t h a t p e r i o d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W o u l d th a t n o t h a v e a c a s h fl o w i m p l ic a ti o n f o r Tr a n s n e t? M a y b e n o t g i v e n th e s iz e o f i ts b u d g e t I r e a lis e p r o b a b ly n o t a c a s h fl o w is s u e b u t w a s t h a t u s u a l t h a t y o u w o u l d p a y fo r t h e fu ll e x t e n t o f a y e a r ’s c o n tr a c t w i th in 7 d a y s o f s ig n i n g a n a g r e e m e n t? M R P H AT L A N E : I k n o w o f s m a l l s u p p l ie r s th a t t h e r e w a s a p u s h t o p a y t h e m f a s t e r b u t I w il l n o t s p e a k o n a u t h o r i t y o n a c tu a l f in a n c e b e c a u s e I d i d n o t r e a l ly d e a l w i t h t h a t e v e n in v o ic e s w h e n t h e y c o m e . 20 W e w il l c h a n n e l t o h i m t o s i g n o ff a n d – f o r p a y m e n t s o . CHAIRPERSON: B u t b e f o r e th is c h a n g e th a t Mr S i g o n y e la t o l d y o u a b o u t t h a t th e y w i ll h a v e to b e p a i d w it h i n 7 d a y s w h a t w a s th e ti m e f r a m e w i t h i n w h ic h Tr a n s n e t u s e d to p a y th e N e w A g e o r T N A ? M R P H AT L A N E: T h e – C h a ir p e r s o n t h e p r e v i o u s a g r e e m e n t w a s 3 0 d a y s – 3 0 d a y s a f t e r t h e y h a v e p r e s e n t e d t h e ir i n v o ic e . Page 180 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . A n d t h o s e o n e s w o u l d Tr a n s n e t p a y th e w h o l e a m o u n t w i t h i n th a t 3 0 d a y s o n – o r o n ly f o r th a t p a r t ic u l a r s e s s i o n ? M R P H AT L A N E: I a m … C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d t h e p a y m e n t b e f o r l ik e fo r a w h o l e s ix m o n th s o r a y e a r o r o n ly w i th i n 3 0 d a y s i n r e s p e c t o f t h e p a r ti c u l a r s e s s io n ? M R P H AT L A N E : T h e c o n tr a c t o n e s w h e n t h e y p r e s e n t th e y p r e s e n t l e t u s s a y R 6 0 m il li o n i n v o i c e . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R P H AT L A N E: I t w il l b e p a id a t o n c e . 10 CHAIRPERSON: S o i f i t s a id li k e 5 b r e a k f a s t s e s s i o n s o r w h a t e v e r i t w o u ld b e f o r t h e w h o le a m o u n t ? M R P H AT L A N E: F o r t h e w h o l e a m o u n t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e w h o l e c o n tr a c t ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f t h e y a r e s til l – t h e la s t b r e a k f a s t w il l b e i n t e n m o n th s ’ t i m e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y p a i d l o n g b e fo r e t h a t ? M R P H AT L A N E: T h a t is – y e s C h a ir p e r s o n th a t i s th e u n d e r s t a n d in g it w a s l ik e t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a lr i g h t. 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e n I w o u l d lik e t o m o v e i f w e m a y t o 2 0 1 4 . W e a r e a t p a g e 4 6 n o w. CHAIRPERSON: 46? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 4 6 In d e e d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I a m m i n d f u l t h a t w e v e r y c l o s e to q u a r t e r Page 181 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 to. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I g u e s s w e a r e n o t d o i n g a s w e l l a s … A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : W e a r e n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w o u l d l ik e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : U n f o r tu n a t e ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is i m p o r ta n t to c l a r if y t h e s e t h in g s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I t is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r w i s e w e u n n e c e s s a r ily b r in g p e o p l e b a c k . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w e c a n – ja l e t u s tr y m a y b e w e w il l s e e – fiv e to? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h is is a m e m o r a n d u m . CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d i f w e d o n o t f in is h th e n m a y b e – w e ll I d o n o t k n o w w e t a lk e d a b o u t d a t e s e a r li e r o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f i t s u i ts a ll c o n c e r n e d I c o u l d s i t in t h e a f te r n o o n o n M o n d a y. I h a v e a c o m m i t m e n t a t t h e c o u r t in t h e m o r n in g . But I c o u l d s it in t h e a f te r n o o n o n M o n d a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w e w il l ju s t h a v e to c h e c k – o h n o . W e Page 182 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 u n f o r t u n a t e ly M r M b i k i w a a n d I a r e … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t a v a il a b l e . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n e n d le s s m e e ti n g s w i t h w i t n e s s e s p r e p a r i n g f o r t h e a v i a ti o n s e s s i o n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e o t h e r t w o w e e k s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e f o l lo w i n g w e e k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o u n fo r t u n a t e ly M o n d a y a f t e r n o o n h e i s r e m i n d in g m e w e d o n o t a c t u a l ly h a v e a v a i la b l e a t t h i s p o i n t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. A n d f o r th e r e s t o f t h e w e e k I g u e s s ? A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h e r e s t o f t h e w e e k i s v e r y fu ll . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s a c h a l le n g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m a y b e – I k n o w t h a t y o u s a id th a t t h e Tu e s d a y th e 4 t h is fi ll e d . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H m . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t m a y b e t h a t w e c o u l d s t a r t w it h h i m . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d fi n is h . 20 A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o th a t s h o u ld n o t b e a p r o b l e m a t a ll . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Because it is short. W e d id n o t w a n t to fi t a w h o le n e w w i t n e s s in o n t h e 4 t h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t I d o n o t h a v e a d i ff ic u l ty a t a ll g iv e n w h a t Page 183 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 w e k n o w o f t h a t d a y ’s e v i d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r u s ju s t t o c o m p l e te M r P h a t l a n e th e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay that is fine. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t w e w i ll g o a l i t tl e f u r th e r i f w e m a y ? W h a t I w a n t t o l o o k a t a t t h e m e m o r a n d u m a t p a g e 4 6 M r P h a tl a n e is h o w t h e p r i c e o f th e b u s in e s s b r e a k fa s t s a r e n o w i n c r e a s i n g o v e r t i m e . S o w h a t 10 is t h e d a t e o f th is m e m o r a n d u m ? M R P H AT L A N E: T h i s o n e w a s w r i t t e n o n t h e 2 4 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e r e y o u i n v o l v e d i n i ts – i n w r i ti n g i t ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s I w a s i n v o lv e d C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o w w h a t – h o w m a n y b r e a k f a s ts w a s t h is fo r and what was going to be the cost of each breakfast? M R P H AT L A N E : Th e s e b r e a k f a s ts w e r e t w o a n d th e n t h e y c h a r g e d u s R 3 m i l li o n w h ic h i t m o v e s fr o m t h e r e R 1 m ill i o n p e r s e s s io n . N o w th e y a r e c h a r g i n g u s d o u b l e . T h e q u e s t io n I a s k e d m y G M to s a y, b u t t h i s – t h is i s n o t f a i r b e c a u s e i t i s n o t l o n g t h a t w e h a d a c o n tr a c t w i th th e m . 20 W h y w i ll it h a v e i n c r e a s e d s o m u c h ? C H A I R P E R S O N : By 1 0 0 % ? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E : A n d I tr ie d c a ll i n g th e – m y p a r tn e r o n t h e s i d e o f T N A a t m y l e v e l th a t w a s Vi d a Ta l li e p w h y th is a n d t h e j u s t i fic a ti o n . N o i t is Page 184 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a P r e s i d e n t . A P r e s i d e n t w il l b e s p e a k i n g a t S O N A f o r P r e s i d e n t n o w w e c h a r g e t i m e s tw o b u t i t is n o t f a ir. N o w b e c a u s e w e a r e n o t m o v i n g w e a r e a t th e s a m e l e v e l n o w i t h a d to – e s c a l a t e d t o t h e C O M r H o w e t o s a y I a m r u d e I d o n o t w a n t t o a c t a n d th e n t h e r e w a s d i s c u s s i o n w i t h m y G M . I d o n o t k n o w t h a t – h o w w h a t h a p p e n e d b u t u l ti m a t e l y I e n d e d u p h a v in g t o w r i te t h is a n d i t g o t a p p r o v e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R P H AT L A N E: B u t I d id q u e s t i o n t h is b e c a u s e i t . .. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R P H AT L A N E : A c t u a l ly fr o m 7 3 5 i t w a s a s i f e v e r y ti m e y o u d o a b r e a k f a s t i t is g o i n g u p b y 3 0 0 o r 4 0 0 0 0 0 t h e n y o u q u e s ti o n t o s a y, w e a t 7 3 5 w h e n y o u s ta r t e d w h y n o w a m il li o n . Yo u d o n o t w i n o n t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: And it would be during the same twelve months or something? M R P H AT L A N E: Ye s e v e n if i t i s a f t e r a y e a r i t c a n n o t e s c a l a t e t h a t much. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t c a n n o t e s c a l a t e l ik e th a t j a . M R P H AT L A N E: Yo u s e e b u t t h e n i t e n d s u p h e r e b e c a u s e I t a lk o n ly to my peer on the other side. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R P H AT L A N E : B u t i f I a m i n s tr u c t e d t o s a y, g o a h e a d p r o c e s s y o u h a v e tr i e d y o u r b it t o s a v e t h e c o m p a n y b u t y o u c o u l d d o u p to t h a t le v e l y e s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u Mr P h a tl a n e . r e l a ti o n t o y o u r q u e s ti o n C h a ir. J u s t to c l a r i fy i n F o r th e r e c o r d a t p a g e 3 7 th e p r i o r Page 185 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 a g r e e m e n t w h i c h w a s f o r th e 1 5 s e s s i o n s w a s g o i n g t o c o n c l u d e o n t h e 3 0 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 a n d a t t h a t s t a g e t h e y w e r e c h a r g in g R 1 m il li o n a session. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B u t t h i s p r o p o s a l w h ic h t h e n g e ts a p p r o v e d is s t il l w it h in t h a t p e r i o d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Th e 2 4 J a n u a r y a n d i t h a s g o n e u p to R 1 . 5 m il li o n . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Shoo. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d Mr P h a t l a n e y o u s a i d t h e e x p l a n a ti o n y o u were given was that the President was coming. Well that was certainly for one of the breakfasts. W a s a n y e x p l a n a ti o n g iv e n to y o u f o r w h y t h e o th e r b r e a k f a s t s h o u l d a ls o b e c h a r g e d a t R 1 .5 m il li o n ? M R P H AT L A N E: N o , n o t h e y s a i d th e y w e r e c h a r g i n g S O N A , S t a t e o f N a t io n A d d r e s s a t R 2 m ill i o n s o t h e o th e r o n e w i ll r e m a in R 1 m il li o n . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : O h m y g o o d n e s s . O k a y. M R P H AT L A N E : Te c h n ic a l ly i t is t h e s a m e . I t i s e i t h e r is R 1 .5 – R 1 . 5 b u t t h a t is th e r a ti o n a le I g o t a n d I w a s q u e s ti o n i n g t o s a y b u t w e h a v e 20 – w e h a v e h o s t e d th e P r e s id e n t b e f o r e y o u d i d n o t d o u b l e i t . Why it g e t s d o u b l e d ? B u t j a t h e y te ll y o u i t is – i t h a s t o b e li k e t h a t i t i s l ik e t h a t a n d y o u k n o w s o y o u tr y a n d – j a b u t if y o u th e n g e t a n i n s tr u c t io n t h a t s a y s n o p r o c e s s t h i s a s is – a s p e r t h e p r o p o s a l . Yo u d o s o u l ti m a t e ly. A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir t h a t m a y b e a c o n v e n ie n t p l a c e a t w h i c h Page 186 of 187 24 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 205 t o – a n d g iv e n t h a t w e w il l n o t c o m p le t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w e w i ll r e tu r n o n t h e 4 t h i f t h a t is c o n v e n i e n t t o a ll c o n c e r n e d . CHAIRPERSON: J a , n o t h a t is fi n e . O k a y w e w il l a d j o u r n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s fo r th e d a y u n le s s t h e p u b li c a n d t h e m e d i a a r e a d v is e d o th e r w i s e e a r l y n e x t w e e k t h e r e w il l b e n o h e a r i n g s n e x t w e e k . The n e x t h e a r i n g w il l b e o n th e 4 F e b r u a r y. T h e r e w il l b e n o h e a r i n g o n t h e 3 r d a s w e ll . W e a d j o u r n . 10 R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 4 F E B R U A R Y 2 0 2 0 Page 187 of 187