C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

2 3 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 3 8

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 2 3 J U LY 2 0 1 9
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

morning

Ms

Butheleze,

good

morning

e v e r y b o d y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : C h a ir b e f o r e I p r o c e e d t o d a y th e r e a r e ju s t
a f e w th in g s t h a t I n e e d to c l a r i fy fr o m y e s t e r d a y ’s e v i d e n c e w i t h Mr
10

Ve n t e r.

Mr Ve n t e r t h e f ir s t is s u e t h a t I w i s h to c l a r i fy is t h a t in y o u r

e v i d e n c e y e s t e r d a y y o u s a id th e r e w e r e a b o u t 6 0 0 p e o p l e a t P r e mi e r ’s
o ffic e i n t h e F r e e S t a t e .

I w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t d o th e s e p e o p l e

do?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n t h e y a r e e m p l o y e e s
w h ic h a r e o c c u p y i n g p o s ts i n t h e s tr u c t u r e w h ic h c o n s is t s o f t h e f o u r
p r o g r a m m e s t h a t I a ll u d e d t o y e s te r d a y. A s I h a v e i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e r e
is a s i g n i fic a n t n u m b e r o f c o m m u n i ty d e v e l o p m e n t w o r k e r s i n th e
d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h a r e – w h o a r e a t t a c h e d to p r o g r a m m e 4 a n d t h o s e
c o m m u n i ty d e v e l o p m e n t w o r k e r s a r e d is tr ib u te d i n m u n ic i p a l i ti e s , t h e
20

id e a l p o s i t io n is o n e p e r w a r d b u t w e d o n o t h a v e s u ff ic ie n t f u n d s t o f ill
a l l t h e v a c a n t p o s t s b u t t h a t is b a s ic a ll y a li n k b e t w e e n t h e c o m m u n i ty
a n d th e d e p a r t m e n t t h r o u g h p r o g r a m m e 4 a n d th e i n t e r v e n t io n u n i t i n
p r o g r a m m e 4 t o w h ic h I a l s o r e f e r r e d y e s t e r d a y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. A n d i s t h is h i s to r ic a l o r i t o n ly c a m e
– i t o n ly b e c a m e a c a s e w h e n p r o g r a m m e 4 w a s in tr o d u c e d ?

Page 2 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:
r e m e m b e r.

C h a ir i t is d i ff ic u l t fo r m e t o

T h e c o m m u n it y d e v e l o p m e n t w o r k e r s w e r e p r e v io u s ly

h o u s e d i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f C o o p e r a t iv e G o v e r n a n c e a n d Tr a d i t io n a l
A ff a ir s a n d t h e in t e r v e n ti o n u n i t w a s i n th e o ff ic e o f t h e P r e m ie r b a s e d
– in p r o g r a m m e 3 w h i c h c o n s i s te d o f b o th p o lic y a n d p l a n n in g a n d
m o n i t o r in g a n d e v a l u a ti o n .

T h o s e t w o fu n c ti o n s w e r e s e p a r a te d a t a

c e r t a i n p o in t i n ti m e s p e c i f ic a l ly b e c a u s e th e o n e p r o g r a m m e c a n n o t
m o n i t o r a n d e v a l u a t e t h e s a m e p r o g r a m m e s o t h e i d e a w a s to c r e a t e a
s e p a r a t e p r o g r a m m e w h o c a n i n d e p e n d e n tly a ls o m o n i to r t h e o t h e r
10

t h r e e p r o g r a m m e s i n t h e o ffic e o f t h e P r e m ie r.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O k a y. A n d th e o th e r is s u e t h a t I w a n t e d t o
c la r i fy w i t h y o u is th e i s s u e o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t g iv in g th e o ff ic e o f t h e
P r e m i e r o r u s i n g t h e o ff ic e o f t h e P r e m i e r w h e n t h e y n e e d t o d r a f t
c o n tr a c ts .

I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d d o d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n t s i n t h e

p r o v i n c e h a v e t h e ir o w n l e g a l a d v is o r s o r l e g a l d e p a r t m e n ts ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

Only the

D e p a r t m e n t o f S p o r ts , A r t s , C u l tu r e a n d R e c r e a t io n d o e s n o t h a v e i n h o u s e o r th e ir o w n l e g a l a d v i s o r s . A l l t h e o th e r d e p a r t m e n t s d o h a v e
t h e ir o w n l e g a l a d v is o r s .
20

ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Ye s a n d w h a t s o r t o f o r ty p e o f c o n tr a c ts

t h e n g e t to b e d r a f t e d b y y o u r o ffi c e a n d w h ic h c o n tr a c ts d o t h e y d r a f t
themselves?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

Chairperson there was a

d ir e c t iv e i n 2 0 1 0 th a t a l l c o n tr a c ts s h o u l d b e s u b m i t t e d t o th e o ffi c e o f
t h e s t a t e l a w a d v is o r s i n t h e o ffic e o f th e P r e m i e r f o r th e r e a s o n s th a t I

Page 3 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
a l lu d e d t o y e s t e r d a y w h i c h I th i n k p r o m p t e d a t l e a s t p a r t o f t h a t
d e c is i o n .

B u t f o r in s ta n c e i f it i s a r e p e ti t iv e c o n tr a c t fo r – if I c a n

p e r h a p s r e f e r t o a le a s e a g r e e m e n t w h i c h is a s t a n d a r d a g r e e m e n t a n d
it i s b a s i c a ll y ju s t a s m a l l s e t o f i n f o r m a ti o n i n th a t a g r e e m e n t t h a t
d i ff e r s fr o m l e a s e t o l e a s e .

I t is n o t n e c e s s a r y t o b e r e fe r r e d t o u s

u n l e s s s i g n i fic a n t c h a n g e s a r e r e q u ir e d .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

Okay and yesterday when we parted you

w e r e d e a li n g w i t h th e o p i n i o n t h a t y o u g a v e to t h e m u n ic i p a l m a n a g e r –
P h u m a l e le M u n ic ip a li ty M r M o r e m i .
10

I n t h e c a s e o f m u n ic ip a li ti e s d o

t h e y a ls o h a v e t h e i r o w n l e g a l a d v i s o r s ?

W h a t s o r t o f m a t te r s g e t

r e fe r r e d t o y o u r o ffi c e b y t h e m u n i c i p a l it i e s ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n s o m e o f t h e b i g g e r
m u n i c i p a li t ie s d o h a v e l e g a l a d v is o r s b u t I a m a ls o a w a r e th a t t h e s m a ll
m u n i c i p a li t ie s i n th e p r o v i n c e d o n o t h a v e th e ir o w n l e g a l a d v is o r s a n d
t h e r e w a s a n i n v i t a ti o n t o t h e s e m u n ic i p a li t ie s fr o m th e E x e c u tiv e
C o u n c il a n d t h e P r e m ie r t h a t i f t h e y h a v e l e g a l p r o b l e m s t h a t i t c o u l d
b e r e f e r r e d t o t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s a n d w e w il l a s s i s t t h e m w h e r e w e
c a n a n d w e a r e d o i n g i t u p to t o d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W i t h r e g a r d t o m a t t e r s t h a t r e la t e t o d e p a r t m e n ts

w i t h i n th e p r o v i n c ia l g o v e r n m e n t w h e r e – w h ic h h a v e t h e ir o w n le g a l
a d v is o r s d id th e n e e d – w a s t h e n e e d f o r th o s e d e p a r t m e n t s t o s e n d
c o n tr a c ts to t h e L e g a l A d v is o r s i n t h e o ff ic e o f t h e P r e m ie r b a s e d o n
in s u ff ic i e n t e x p e r i e n c e o r c a p a c it y o r e x p e r ti s e o r w a s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t
t h e l e g a l a d v is o r s i n t h o s e d e p a r t m e n ts w e r e in t h e m s e lv e s – w e r e
t h e m s e l v e s e x p e r ie n c e d p e o p l e w i t h th e r e q u ir e d e x p e r ti s e b u t th e r e

Page 4 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
w a s s o m e o t h e r r e a s o n w h y t h e y w e r e n e v e r t h e l e s s r e q u ir e d t o s u b m i t
c o n tr a c ts to t h e le g a l a d v i s o r s i n t h e o ff ic e o f t h e P r e m ie r ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n a t t h e p o in t i n t i m e
w h e n t h e d ir e c tiv e w a s is s u e d i t w a s m y s e n s e th a t t h e r e w a s a
t u r n o v e r o f o ffi c i a l s i n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts w h o o c c u p ie d p o s ts o f l e g a l
a d v is o r s o r le g a l a d m i n i s t r a t io n o ffi c e s a n d th e c a p a c it y – t h e r e w e r e
c e r t a i n l y c a p a c i ty i s s u e s . I i n d ic a te d y e s t e r d a y t h a t I p e r s o n a l ly n o te d
s ig n e d c o n tr a c ts w h ic h d o e s n o t p r o te c t t h e i n t e r e s t o f g o v e r n m e n t o r
w h e r e t h e r e a r e c l a u s e s s u c h a s th e i n d e m n i ty c l a u s e w h ic h w e r e
10

c o n tr a r y t o t h e p r o v is i o n s o f th e P u b li c Fi n a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t a n d I
r a i s e d t h o s e c o n c e r n s a n d I c a n n o t s a y th a t my c o n c e r n s t h a t I r a is e d
p r o m p te d t h a t d e c i s i o n . I w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e d e c is i o n m a k in g p r o c e s s
b e f o r e t h a t d ir e c ti v e w a s i s s u e d .

B u t th e r e w e r e d e fi n it e ly c a p a c i t y

p r o b le m s . I t i s b e t t e r a t t h i s p o in t in t i m e b u t t h e r e a r e a ls o in s o m e
d e p a r t m e n ts w h e r e t h e r e a r e d e f in i te ly c a p a c i t y p r o b l e ms a n d a s I h a v e
in d i c a t e d o n e d e p a r t m e n t d o e s n o t h a v e l e g a l a d v is o r s a t a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o i s s u e d th e d ir e c t iv e ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e d i r e c t iv e w a s

is s u e d b y t h e p r e v io u s P r e m ie r Mr M a g a s h u l e . I w a s n o t p r e s e n t i n th e
20

m e e ti n g b u t i t w a s a m e e ti n g o f h e a d s o f d e p a r t m e n ts , a c c o u n t in g
o ffic e r s , c h i e f f in a n c i a l o ff ic e r s a n d h e a d s o f s u p p ly c h a in m a n a g e m e n t
a n d i t w a s l a te r o n c o n f ir m e d i n a m e e ti n g o f t h e E x e c u ti v e C o u n c il .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u s a y a l t h o u g h y o u w e r e n o t p a r ty t o t h e

d e c is i o n t o is s u e t h a t d i r e c t iv e b u t y o u s a y o n y o u r o w n y o u a r e a b l e t o
s a y t h a t t h e r e w e r e c e r ta i n c a p a c i ty c h a l le n g e s a t le a s t i n r e g a r d t o

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
s o m e d e p a r t m e n t s a n d fr o m t h a t p o i n t o f v ie w y o u w o u l d h a v e s e e n t h e
d ir e c t iv e a s m a y b e a w a y o f t r y i n g to a s s is t w i th c a p a c i t y ?
M R A LB E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

T h a t is h o w I p e r c e i v e d i t a t t h a t t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R A L B E R TU S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R :

A n d I m a y j u s t m e n ti o n

C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s n o t a n is o la t e d i n c i d e n t .

W e h a v e a n e l e c tr o n ic

c a s e m a n a g e m e n t s y s te m t h r o u g h w h i c h w e m a n a g e a ll th e l e g a l w o r k
t h a t c o m e s i n to o u r u n i t a n d I c h e c k e d y e s t e r d a y m o r n i n g a n d s in c e
10

2 0 1 0 w e h a n d l e d a 1 ,4 2 3 c o n tr a c ts . S o i t i s a c o n t in u o u s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : O b l ig a ti o n t h a t w e h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. L e t u s p r o c e e d .

On

p a r a g r a p h 2 . 4 y o u t a lk a b o u t a fu r t h e r o p i n i o n o r c la r i fic a ti o n t h a t y o u
g a v e t o Mr M o r e m i r e g a r d in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t p a r a g r a p h 2 . 4 o f h is a ffi d a v it ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s .

O f h is – o f y o u r a ffi d a v it y e s s o r r y

C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is i n E x h i b i t H H 2 ?
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s o n p a g e 2 o f t h a t – o f Ex h i b it H H 2 a n d
y o u a t ta c h t h a t c la r i fi c a t io n a s a n a n n e x u r e – A n n e x u r e D . W o u l d y o u
p l e a s e j u s t t e ll u s w h a t – w h a t w e r e y o u s a y in g i n t h a t c la r i fi c a t io n ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n I a s s u m e th a t t h e

le g a l a d v ic e t h a t A d v o c a t e D i t ir a p r o v i d e d t o M r M o r e m i th e M u n ic i p a l

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
M a n a g e r o n t h e 2 3 J u ly 2 0 1 2 a n d I r e f e r t o A n n e x u r e C t o m y a ff id a v i t
t h a t t h a t w a s c o m m u n ic a te d t o t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e M E C o r
e i t h e r o n e o f th e tw o a n d th e y s o u g h t a n a p p o in t m e n t w i th m e t o
d is c u s s i t a n d I m e t w i th b o t h o f t h e m .

T h e i s s u e w h ic h t h e y r a i s e d

w i t h m e w a s t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y r e q u ir e d t o h a v e a c c e s s t o th e f a r m t o
in it i a t e th e p r o je c t a s s o o n a s p o s s ib l e .

A t th a t p o i n t i n ti m e t h e

la r g e s t p o r ti o n o f th e f a r m a s I u n d e r s t o o d it w e r e l e t to fa r m e r s . A n d
t h o s e le a s e a g r e e m e n ts h a d n o t e x p ir e d a t t h a t ti m e . A d v o c a t e D i tir a
in h e r o p i n i o n p a r a g r a p h 9 r e f e r r e d t o i t .
10

Th a t is t h e A n n e x u r e C o n

A J V 2 9 C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: And she referred to an email of
16 July 2012.

A n d i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y t h a t e m a il a l e r te d t h e

D e p a r t m e n t n o t t o e n g a g e t h e fa r m e r s w i t h a v ie w t o c a n c e l t h o s e
a g r e e m e n ts .

W e w e r e c o n c e r n e d th a t i t m a y b e r e g a r d e d a s a

r e p u d i a ti o n .

T h a t t h e r e p u d ia t io n w o u ld b e a c c e p t e d a n d t h e r e w o u l d

b e a c l a i m f o r d a m a g e s a g a i n s t t h e m u n ic i p a l it y w h i c h w e w a n t e d to
a v o i d a t a ll c o s t .

Th e fu r t h e r o p ti o n s t h a t s h e r e f e r r e d t o i n t h e l a s t

p a r a g r a p h o f h e r o p in io n w a s n o t c l a r if i e d a n d w h e n I m e t w i th th e M E C
20

and the Head of the Department we discussed other options. As I have
in d i c a t e d i n p a r a g r a p h 4 o f m y le t t e r a n d t h o s e o p ti o n s w e r e fir s t ly t h a t
t h e r e s h o u l d b e a le a s e a g r e e m e n t i n s t e a d o f t h e c o m p a n y l e a s in g t h e
la n d fr o m th e m u n ic ip a li ty th e D e p a r t m e n t c o u l d e n te r in t o a l e a s e
a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e M u n i c i p a l it y.

O n c e th e le a s e a g r e e m e n t s w i t h t h e

f a r m e r s e x p ir e d w h ic h w a s n o t a c c e p t a b l e t o th e D e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e

Page 7 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
o f t h e ir n e e d t o a s q u ic k ly a s p o s s i b l e g e t d o w n t o t h e l a n d o r th e n i n
o r d e r t o p r o t e c t t h e m u n ic ip a li ty I p r o p o s e d t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t t h e n
e n t e r i n to a n a g r e e m e n t w i th th e m u n ic i p a li ty i n t e r m s o f w h ic h t h e y o r
w h ic h t h e r ig h ts a n d o b l ig a ti o n s o f t h e m u n i c i p a li t y in te r m s o f t h e
le a s e a g r e e m e n ts a r e a s s i g n e d a n d c e d e d t o th e D e p a r t m e n t s o t h a t
t h e D e p a r t m e n t c o u l d e n g a g e w i t h t h e fa r m e r s w i th o u t a n y r is k t o t h e
m u n i c i p a li t y. I n th a t m e e t i n g t h e H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a s a d a m a n t
t h a t h e w o u l d b e a b le to c o n v in c e th e f a r m e r s t o a n e a r ly m u t u a l
t e r m in a ti o n o f t h o s e a g r e e m e n ts a n d I w a s n o t s u r e e x a c tly h e w o u l d d o
10

it b u t h e w a s c o n v i n c e d .

A n d I w a s t h e n r e q u e s te d to a m p li fy t h e

p r e v i o u s a d v ic e w h ic h A d v o c a t e D i tir a g a v e to th e m u n i c i p a li t y a n d I
d i d th a t i n t h is l e t te r t h a t I w r o t e t o t h e M u n ic i p a l M a n a g e r.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d d o y o u k n o w i f t h e – y o u r o p i n io n
w a s f o ll o w e d ?
M R A LB E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R :

C h a ir p e r s o n w e – w e p r e p a r e d

t h a t S e s s i o n A n d A s s i g n m e n t A g r e e m e n t s u b s e q u e n t t o t h is a n d i t w a s
p r o v i d e d t o th e D e p a r t m e n t a n d th e m u n i c i p a li t y i f I r e m e m b e r
c o r r e c t ly. I s a id t h e r e w a s a d r a f t p r e p a r e d .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:
20

Yo u ta lk a b o u t t h e d r a f t L e a s e A g r e e m e n t

b e t w e e n th e Fr e e S t a te D e p a r t m e n t a n d P h u m a l e le l o c a l m u n ic i p a l i ty
o n p a r a g r a p h 2 . 5 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Paragraph sorry?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : P a r a g r a p h 2 .5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t i t is o n p a g e
2.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Ja.

Page 8 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
A D V ZI N H L E B U TH E L E Z I :

Ye s .

I s t h is t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s

p r e p a r e d i n y o u r o ffi c e ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y I t a k e y o u b a c k to p a g e 2 9 th a t is th e l e t te r fr o m
A d v o c a t e D it ir a .

I s e e th a t s h e I t h i n k y o u s a i d i t is a s h e o r a m I

wrong?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s s h e .

10

CHAIRPERSON:

J a t h a t s h e w r i te s b e l o w h e r n a m e D D G L e g a l

S e r v ic e s .

y o u s a id

Now

that your

p o s i ti o n i s D D G

Corporate

A d m i n i s t r a t io n a n d s o m e t h i n g e l s e .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y b u t y o u m e n t io n t h e c o m p o n e n ts o f y o u r – o f

y o u r j o b a n d t h e y i n c lu d e l e g a l s e r v ic e s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I w a n t t o fi n d o u t w h e t h e r D D G L e g a l S e r v i c e s w a s
t h a t s h e w a s a l s o o c c u p y i n g t h e p o s i ti o n o f D D G b u t h e r f o c u s w a s j u s t
le g a l s e r v i c e s o r w h e t h e r t h a t w a s j u s t m e a n t t o r e f e r t o r e l a t e to th e
o ffic e w h ic h y o u h e l d b e c a u s e a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t s h e r e p o r t e d t o y o u ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s . C h a ir p e r s o n I m a y p e r h a p s
20

ju s t e x p l a in .

I c a n u n d e r s t a n d th e c o n f u s i o n fo r a s h o r t p e r i o d s h e

o c c u p i e d t h e p o s t o f C h i e f O p e r a t in g O ffi c e r in th e D e p a r t m e n t o f
E c o n o m ic D e v e l o p m e n t a n d E n v i r o n m e n t a l A ff a ir s .

And at that post

w a s tr a d e d a t D e p u ty D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l in t h a t D e p a r t m e n t. T h e r e w a s
t h e n a d e c is i o n to a b o lis h th a t p o s t a n d s h e w a s tr a n s f e r r e d b a c k t o
o u r le g a l s e r v ic e s c o m p o n e n t b u t s h e r e ta in e d h e r r a n k . A l th o u g h s h e

Page 9 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
o c c u p i e s u p t o t o d a y t h e p o s t o f C h i e f D ir e c t o r w h ic h is o n e p o s t l e v e l
b e l o w m y o w n . B u t h e r r a n k is th a t o f a D e p u ty D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l a n d
s h e is r e m u n e r a t e d a t t h a t r a n k s ti ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is c o n f u s i n g . O n t h e o n e h a n d s h e is p a i d a t t h e
le v e l D D G b u t t h e p o s i ti o n s h e o c c u p i e s a n d t h e f u n c ti o n s o f w h ic h s h e
p e r f o r m s a r e a t C h ie f D ir e c t o r L e v e l .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t i s l ik e y o u – i t is l i k e y o u p e r f o r m t h e f u n c ti o n s
– le t m e m a k e ju s t a n e x a m p l e o f a c l e r k b u t y o u a r e p a i d a t d ir e c t o r ’s
10

le v e l s o m e th in g l ik e th a t ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n y e s .

Th e S e c ti o n

1 4 o f th e P u b li c S e r v ic e A c t w h ic h p r o v i d e s fo r a tr a n s fe r a ls o p r o v i d e s
t h a t if a n o ffic i a l is tr a n s f e r r e d to a p o s t w h ic h is lo w e r th a n th e o ffi c i a l
o c c u p i e s a t t h e s t a g e o f tr a n s f e r t h e o ff i c ia l w ill r e t a in t h e i r b e n e fi ts .
T h a t i s t h e – h o w t h e A c t d e t e r m i n e s i t s h o u l d h a p p e n a n d th a t is w h y
s h e o c c u p ie s t h a t r a n k .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t – d o e s th e A c t n o t p r o v i d e fo r a tr a n s f e r to a

h i g h e r p o s i t io n o r a lo w e r p o s i ti o n d e p e n d i n g o n c ir c u m s t a n c e s ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n t o a l o w e r p o s i ti o n
20

in t e r m s w h e n y o u a r e tr a n s f e r r e d t o a h ig h e r p o s t t h a t m u s t b e t h r o u g h
a s e l e c ti o n p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f i t i s t o a h ig h e r p o s i ti o n ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I f it i s t o a h ig h e r p o s i ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja no but I am talking about to an equal…
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Ja.

Page 10 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
C H A I R P E R S O N : P o s i t io n – o f e q u a l l e v e l t h a t i s f i n e .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t I a m a s k in g i s w h e th e r t h e d o e s Ac t d o e s

n o t a c t u a l ly a ls o a l l o w tr a n s f e r to a lo w e r p o s i ti o n a n d o f c o u r s e I th in k
t h a t h a s t o b e w it h y o u r c o n s e n t I t a k e i t? B u t t h e o t h e r tr a n s f e r m a y b e
a ls o h a s t o b e w i t h c o n s e n t b u t I k n o w t h a t i n p u b lic s e r v ic e a t l e a s t
w i t h r e g a r d to c e r t a in d e p a r t m e n ts b u t m a y b e th e w h o l e p u b li c s e r v i c e
y o u c a n b e tr a n s fe r r e d e v e n w it h o u t y o u r c o n s e n t i f i t is c o n s i d e r e d t o
b e in t h e p u b li c i n te r e s t o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t .
10

MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o th e r e fo r e i t c a n n o t – it c a n n o t b e t h a t i t is a s
if – i f i t is a t r a n s f e r y o u c a n o n ly b e tr a n s f e r r e d t o a n e q u a l p o s i ti o n .
Yo u c a n b e tr a n s f e r r e d t o a l o w e r p o s i t io n a s w e ll .
MR

ALBERTUS

JOHANNES

VENTER:

Th a t

is

in d e e d

correct

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M R A LB E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R :

W it h t h e r e t e n t io n o f y o u r

b e n e fi ts o f t h e p o s t w h ic h y o u o c c u p i e d i m m e d i a te ly b e fo r e t h e
tr a n s fe r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

J a w e ll I g u e s s i t a s i d e is s u e .

I t is a v e r y s tr a n g e

thing to me.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t y o u r s e r v ic e s a r e r e q u ir e d a t a l o w e r p o s i t io n

t h e fu n c t io n s t h a t y o u p e r f o r m t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s a r e a t a l o w e r l e v e l
n o t a t a h i g h e r le v e l .

Page 11 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u a r e p a i d a t a h i g h e r le v e l . N o w y o u a r e n o t
p a i d f o r t h e f u n c ti o n s y o u p e r f o r m y o u a r e p a i d f o r fu n c t io n s t h a t y o u
d o n o t p e r fo r m .
M R A LB E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R :

J a th a t i s th e e ff e c t o f t h a t

provision.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h a t is t h e e ff e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
10

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h is a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n
t h e P h u m a l e le M u n i c i p a li t y a n d t h e Fr e e S t a t e G o v e r n m e n t w h o a r e
supposed …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s B u t h e l e z e I j u s t w a n t to c o m p l e t e w h a t
w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t .

B u t i f t h e p o s i t i o n t h a t s h e th e n o c c u p i e s i n

y o u r u n i t is t h a t o f C h ie f D ir e c to r i s t h a t n o t th e d e s ig n a ti o n t h a t s h o u l d
a p p e a r i n t h e l e tt e r s t h a t s h e w r i t e s ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

I t o t a l ly a g r e e w i th y o u

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I m e a n I r a is e d i t w i th h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : J a i t is c o r r e c t t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Not DGG.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e t h a t is n o t – s h e d o e s n o t o c c u p y s u c h a

Page 12 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
p o s i ti o n i n y o u r u n i t .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e i s n o s u c h p o s it i o n i n y o u r u n i t ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I f w e m a y p r o c e e d t h e n ?
W e s t il l o n p o in t 2 .5 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t .

I f i t is a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n

t h is – t h e Pr o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e l o c a l M u n ic i p a li ty w h o s h o u l d
b e t h e s i g n a t o r i e s o f t h a t p a r ti c u l a r a g r e e m e n t?
10

MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: The lease agreement on behalf
o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e Pr o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e s i g n e d i n
t e r m s o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e L a n d A d m i n is tr a t i o n A c t b y th e P r e m ie r. A f t e r a
d e c is i o n w a s ta k e n i n c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h th e M E C f o r P u b li c W o r k s b e i n g
d e l e g a t e d b y t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il a n d o n b e h a l f o f t h e m u n i c i p a li t y b y
t h e m u n i c i p a l m a n a g e r a u t h o r i s e d b y t h e c o u n c il I p r e s u m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m c o m p l e t i n g o u t d is c u s s i o n a s I th in k a b o u t i t –

w h a t w e w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t j u s t n o w a b o u t th e p o s i ti o n f o r Ms D i t ir a . It
s e e m s t h a t a c tu a lly l e g a ll y i t is q u it e r i s k y f o r h e r t o u s e a p o s i ti o n t h a t
d o e s n o t e x is t i n t h e u n i t b e c a u s e i f a s C h i e f D ir e c t o r s h e h a s p o w e r s
20

t o m a k e c e r t a in d e c is io n s a n d s h e is r e q u ir e d t o m a k e th o s e d e c is i o n s
a s C h i e f D ir e c t o r a n d s h e m a k e s t h o s e d e c is io n s a n d w r i t e s D D G L e g a l
S e r v ic e s a p o s i t io n t h a t d o e s n o t e x is t s o m e b o d y w h o i s a d v e r s e ly
a ffe c te d b y t h a t d e c is io n c o u ld c h a l le n g e i t o n t h e b a s is th a t s h e
e x e r c is e d p o w e r s t h a t s h e d o e s n o t h a v e b e c a u s e a s – t h e r e i s n o
p o s i ti o n o f D D G L e g a l S e r v ic e s . S h e c o u ld o n ly e x e r c i s e p o w e r s th a t

Page 13 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
a r e a t t a c h e d to C h i e f D ir e c to r.
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n th a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M R A LB E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R :

A lt h o u g h i n t e r m s o f t h e jo b

d e s c r ip t io n o f th e j o b t h a t s h e o c c u p i e s t h e r e a r e n o s p e c if ic d e c is io n
making powers.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : A n d a l l o c a t e d t o h e r s e lf . B u t I
u n d e r s t a n d c o m p le t e l y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

T h e a r g u m e n t w h ic h y o u m a k e

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t i f s h e g iv e s l e g a l a d v ic e a ls o t h a t l e g a l

a d v ic e is o n ly s u p p o s e d t o b e g iv e n i n h e r p o s i ti o n a s C h ie f D ir e c t o r.
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t i n a n y o th e r p o s it i o n b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o p o s i ti o n
c a l l e d D D G L e g a l S e r v ic e s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. N o w I j u s t w a n t to a d d o n
y o u r q u e s t io n s n o w. M r Ve n te r d o y o u k n o w h o w lo n g d i d s h e s ta y w i th
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f E c o n o m ic D e v e lo p m e n t ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n o t h a v e a

v iv id m e m o r y o f t h e t i m e p e r io d b u t i t w a s n o t lo n g . I t w a s n o t l o n g .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 14 of 129

Then let us go back to

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
y o u r a ffi d a v i t . Yo u w e r e s a y in g i f i t is b e t w e e n th e lo c a l m u n i c i p a li ty –
P h u m a l e le M u n ic i p a l i ty a n d t h e Fr e e S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t o r Fr e e S t a te
P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t it w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e s ig n e d b y a m u n ic ip a l
m a n a g e r a n d th e P r e m i e r. I n th is i n s t a n c e w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n o t t h i n g

a g r e e m e n t w a s e v e r s ig n e d . W e d i d th e d r a ft b u t i t w a s n o t s i g n e d .
ADV ZINHLE BUTHELEZI:

S o th e d r a f t s th a t y o u d i d w a s f o r th e

P r e m i e r a n d t h e – f o r th e P r e m i e r t o s i g n a n d t h e M u n ic i p a l m a n a g e r t o
s ig n ?
10

M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . O n p a r a g r a p h 2 .6 .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Yo u d e a l w i t h t h e d e l e g a t i o n o f a u th o r i ty

t h a t h a p p e n e d . C o u l d y o u p l e a s e j u s t t a k e u s th r o u g h t h o s e e v e n ts ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n i n m y m e e t i n g w i th
the

Head

of

Department

and

MEC

for

A g r ic u l t u r e

and

Rural

D e v e l o p m e n t I i n d ic a t e d to th e m th a t i n my v i e w i f t h e Fr e e S t a te
P r o v i n c ia l

Government

w i ll

r e c e iv e

th e

r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s

and

the

o b li g a ti o n s in t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w h i c h t h e m u n i c i p a li t y h a d w it h
20

t h e f a r m e r s o n t h e l a n d t h a t c o u l d fa ll w i t h in t h e d e f i n i ti o n o f a c q u ir e i n
t h e F r e e S t a t e L a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n A c t.

A n d if I a m c o r r e c t i t m e a n s

t h a t th e Pr e m ie r m u s t t h e n ta k e th e d e c is i o n to e n t e r i n t o t h a t
a g r e e m e n t i n c o n s u l ta t io n w i t h th e M E C f o r P u b l ic W o r k s a s d e le g a te d .
A n d s u b s e q u e n t t o o u r m e e ti n g i n a m e e t in g o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il
w h e n t h e r e w a s a b r e a k i n th e m e e ti n g I w a s r e q u e s t e d b y t h e M E C a n d

Page 15 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t t o m e e t b r i e fl y w i t h t h e P r e m i e r a n d t o e x p l a i n
t h a t to t h e P r e m ie r.

W h ic h I d i d a n d I a ls o e x p l a in e d t o t h e P r e m i e r

t h a t i n t e r m s o f S e c t io n 5 o f T h e L a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n A c t h e is e n t it l e d
t o d e l e g a t e th a t a u t h o r i ty to a m e m b e r o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e a n d t h a t t h e
m e m b e r o f t h e E x e c u ti v e is a ls o a u t h o r is e d i n t e r ms o f t h e s a m e
s e c t io n o f th e a c t to d e l e g a t e it t o a n o ffic i a l o f g o v e r n m e n t .

The

P r e m i e r t h e n i n d ic a t e d h i s w il li n g n e s s t o d e l e g a t e a n d h e r e q u e s t e d m e
t o p r e p a r e t h e d e l e g a t io n fo r h i m b u t a l s o t o i n c lu d e i n t h e d e l e g a ti o n
t h a t i t is d o n e o n t h e a d v ic e o f t h e S t a te L a w A d v i s o r s w h i c h I i n c lu d e d
10

in t h a t d e l e g a ti o n . I a ls o t h e n p r e p a r e d a d e l e g a t io n f r o m t h e M E C fo r
A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e lo p m e n t to t h e H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t t o e n te r i n t o t h e a g r e e m e n t to
a s s ig n t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s fr o m t h e m u n ic i p a li ty t o t h e F r e e S t a t e
P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t .
A D V Z I N H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I f I m a y – if I m a y a s k w h y d i d y o u s u g g e s t
t h a t th e P r e m i e r s h o u l d d e l e g a t e .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : N o I d id n o t s u g g e s t I a d v i s e d .
I g o t a s e n s e t h a t h e d o e s n o t w a n t t o b e i n v o lv e d a n d t h a t is w h y I
a d v is e d th a t i t i s p o s s i b l e t h a t h e c a n d e l e g a t e .

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w i t h th e M E C ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h e M E C a ls o i n d ic a te d t h a t h e
w i ll w a n t to – h e w a n ts t o d e l e g a te t h a t t o th e H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t
w h o m u s t d e a l – r u n w i th t h e p r o c e s s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u – I t h i n k t h e r e i s a c e r ta i n d is t in c t i o n y o u

Page 16 of 129

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w a n t t o m a k e b e tw e e n w h a t y o u d i d a n d s u g g e s t in g t h a t h e d e l e g a t e .
N o w if y o u s a y I a d v is e d h i m t o d e le g a te t h a t is v e r y c l o s e t o I
s u g g e s t e d th a t h e s h o u ld d e le g a te . B u t I t h i n k w h a t y o u s e e k t o d o is
t h a t w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y is t h a t y o u g a v e a d v ic e t h a t i t i s p o s s i b l e –
that it was possible for him.

I t w a s o p e n to h i m t o d e l e g a t e i f h e

wanted to.
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h a t is in d e e d c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u w a n t to s a y ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir f o r th e c l a r i t y a n d w i t h

regards to MEC how did it come about that he delegated to the HOD?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir if I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tly I

in d i c a t e d to h i m t h a t h e c a n a l s o d e l e g a t e . I t is a u t h o r i s e d in t e r m s o f
t h e A c t a n d t h e in d ic a t e d th a t h e – t h a t h e s o w is h e d t o d o .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M r Ve n t e r t h e r e is a p r i n c i p l e t h a t is w id e ly
k n o w n t h a t a d e l e g a t e c a n n o t d e l e g a t e f u r t h e r. W h a t t h e n e m p o w e r e d
t h e M E C t o d e l e g a te f u r t h e r – to d e l e g a t e f u r th e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u s t a t e d th e p r in c ip l e c o r r e c tl y M s B u t h e l e z i ?
20

Yo u m u s t b e c a r e f u l .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . I t is – it is th e p r in c i p l e o f d e l e g a t u s
n o n p o t e s t d e le g a r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but it does not say what you say – what you say it
says.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a t is m y – my s o r t o f s u m m a r y o r m y

Page 17 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t it s a y s . Th a t a d e l e g a t e c a n n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s it – d o e s it n o t m e a n t h a t – w e ll y o u – y o u h a v e
g o t t o r e f le c t v e r y c a r e f u lly i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o p u t i t t o – t o a w i t n e s s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C e r t a i n l y i f t h e o r i g i n a l p o w e r p r o v i d e s fo r d e l e g a t io n
it c a n b e d o n e .

O k a y.

S o t h e o p t i o n i s w h e t h e r t h e r e i s p r o v is i o n i n

t h e le g i s l a ti o n t h a t i f y o u a r e g i v e n th is p a r ti c u la r p o w e r y o u d e le g a t e
b e c a u s e i f th e r e is s u c h a p r o v is i o n o b v i o u s a d e l e g a ti o n c a n h a p p e n .
T h e o t h e r s it u a ti o n i s w h e r e th e r e is n o – n o e x p r e s s p r o v i s i o n i n t h e
10

le g i s l a ti o n w h e t h e r y o u c a n d e le g a te i f y o u a r e g iv e n p o w e r o r n o t a n d
t h a t is w h e n s o m e p r i n c ip l e c a n c o m e in a n d – a n d m a y b e it i s n o t e v e n
a p r i n c i p le .
I t i s – i t m ig h t j u s t b e a p r e s u m p t io n r a th e r th a n a p r i n c i p le .
S o – b u t a ll I a m s i m p l y s a y i n g is j u s t b e c a r e f u l h o w y o u p u t it .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u , t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w i f it is n e c e s s a r y t o - to g o t h e r e …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w i f h e is g i v i n g e v id e n c e a s a n
expert.

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir b u t m a y – m a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t y o u m i g h t h a v e – m ig h t h a v e t o m a k e u p y o u r
m i n d w h e t h e r y o u w a n t to a s k .

It j u s t d e p e n d s w h a t y o u w a n t t o

achieve.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Thank you.

Wa s t h e r e l a w o r le g is l a ti o n

t h a t w a s e m p o w e r i n g t h e M E C n o w to d e l e g a t e f u r th e r t o s o m e o n e w h o

Page 18 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
is i n a lo w e r r a n k t h a n h e w a s ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n , y e s .

S e c ti o n 1 o f

t h e Fr e e S t a t e L a n d A d m i n is tr a t i o n A c t p r o v i d e s t h a t t h e P r e m i e r m a y
s u b j e c t t o c o n d it i o n s a n d s o o n d e l e g a te to a n y m e m b e r o f t h e
E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il th e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f t h e Pr e m ie r in te r ms o f th is A c t
a n d t h e n i n t e r m s o f S e c t i o n 5 . 2 o f t h is A c t i t p r o v i d e s t h a t th e m e m b e r
o f t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il m a y t h e n d e l e g a t e t o a n y o ff ic ia l i n t h e s e r v ic e
o f t h e P r o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n t . S o i t is a u t h o r is e d e x p r e s s l y i n t h e A c t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
10

2 .7 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t .

Th a n k y o u .

Let us move on to paragraph

T h is is t h e s e c o n d a d v ic e t h a t y o u g a v e t o

M o r e m i r e la t iv e to S e c ti o n 1 6 o f t h e D e e d s R e g is tr y Ac t .

Could you

p l e a s e t a k e u s t h r o u g h t h is o p i n i o n t h a t y o u g a v e to M r M o r e m i?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h e r e d i d y o u s a y w e s h o u l d g o ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : To – i t is – i t i s p a r a g r a p h 2 . 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h e – t h e s a i d o p in i o n y o u a t ta c h to
y o u r a ff id a v i t a s A n n e x u r e E .

Annexure E appears from page 33

M r Ve n t e r.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:
20

Chairperson

in

-

in

D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 I r e c e iv e d a r e q u e s t f o r a d v ic e fr o m M r M o r e m i w h o
s u b m i tt e d d o c u m e n ts t o m e t o a d v i s e h i m o n . W h e n I r e a d t h r o u g h th e
d o c u m e n ts th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w a s p e r h a p s in my a ff i d a v i t w r o n g ly a n d I a p o l o g is e f o r t h a t - r e fe r r e d t o a l e a s e a g r e e m e n t . I t w a s n o t a
le a s e a g r e e m e n t .
I t w a s a C e s s io n a n d A s s i g n m e n t A g r e e m e n t a n d t h a t C e s s i o n

Page 19 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
a n d A s s ig n m e n t A g r e e m e n t c e d e d a n d m a d e o v e r a l l t h e r ig h ts o f t h e
m u n i c i p a li t y in r e s p e c t o f t h e f a r m t o t h e F r e e S t a t e Pr o v in c i a l
G o v e r n m e n t a n d I – w h e n I r e a d t h r o u g h i t I i m m e d i a te ly s e n s e d th a t i t
w a s i n c o n s i s te n t w i t h my p r e v io u s a d v ic e i n th e l e t t e r th a t I g a v e o n t h e
s tr u c t u r e t h a t I p r o p o s e d o f t h e a s s ig n m e n t o f th e a g r e e m e n t s o t h a t
there could be an engagement with the farmers and the lease
a g r e e m e n t c o u l d th e n b e e n t e r e d i n to b e t w e e n th e m u n ic i p a l it y a n d t h e
Fr e e S t a t e Pr o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t .
T h a t i n i ti a l a d v ic e w a s p r e m i s e d a l s o o n th e f a c t t h a t t h e
10

m u n i c i p a li t y r e c e iv e d a n a n n u a l i n c o m e f r o m t h e le a s e a g r e e m e n ts to
m o r e o r l e s s a m i ll io n R a n d a n d g iv e n t h e fa c t th a t i t w a s a s m a ll
m u n i c i p a li t y t h e y s i m p ly c o u l d n o t fo r f e it t h a t in – in c o m e o v e r a n y
p e r i o d o f t i m e b u t th e d o c u m e n t s t h a t I w a s p r e s e n te d o r p r o v i d e d w i t h
b y M r M o r e m i i n d ic a t e d t h a t t h e c e s s io n a n d a s s i g n m e n t w a s n o t f o r a
li m i te d p e r i o d a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o c o m p e n s a ti o n t o t h e m u n ic ip a l i ty
in t h o s e d o c u m e n t s a n d I a d v i s e d h i m a c c o r d i n g ly i n m y l e tt e r w h ic h is
a tt a c h e d t h a t i t is i n c o n s is t e n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th a n k y o u .

Do you have any knowledge

t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h i s a g r e e m e n t a f te r y o u – y o u r a d v ic e ?
20

M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n a t a v e r y l a t e s ta g e
a n d th a t w a s a b o u t m o r e t h a n a y e a r a f t e r t h is l e t te r I b e c a m e a w a r e
t h a t t h e r e w a s in f a c t a tr a n s fe r o f t h e p r o p e r ty t o t h e F r e e S t a t e
P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t a n d a 9 9 Ye a r L e a s e c o n c l u d e d w i t h E s ti n a .

I

w a s f o r a l o n g p e r i o d t o ta ll y u n a w a r e o f t h a t.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 20 of 129

M o r e in f o r m a ti o n w it h

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
r e g a r d s t o t h a t i s s u e w il l b e ta k e n u p w i t h o t h e r w i tn e s s e s . Th a n k y o u
M r Ve n t e r.

C a n w e t h e n m o v e t o p a r a g r a p h 2 . 8 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t

w h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h th e B e n e f ic ia r y A g r e e m e n t o r a g r e e m e n ts t h a t w e r e
b r o u g h t t o y o u a t s o m e s ta g e ?

Do you remember when these

a g r e e m e n ts w e r e b r o u g h t t o y o u r a t t e n t io n ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n n o t r e c a ll t h e

e x a c t d a t e b u t i t w a s to w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 3 . W h e n I s a y t o w a r d s t h e
e n d O c t o b e r t o D e c e m b e r. I – I a m n o t – I d o n o t h a v e th e e x a c t d a t e
a n y w h e r e i n my r e c o r d s .
10

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : A n d w h o b r o u g h t th is a g r e e m e n t t o y o u – to
y o u r o ff ic e ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:
– ( c o u g h in g ) m y a p o l o g i e s .

C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s D r M a s i t e n g

H e is a n e m p l o y e e o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f

A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t a n d if I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly h e
o c c u p i e d t h e p o s t o f C h ie f D ir e c t o r D i s t r ic t S e r v ic e s a n d th e r e w e r e
p e o p l e w i t h h i m a n d I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h o i t w a s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d w h o d r a ft e d t h e s e a g r e e m e n t s ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n I d o n o t k n o w.

W h e n t h e y s u b m i t t e d it t o m e i t w a s a lr e a d y d r a ft e d a n d s i g n e d .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
opinion was sought.

Ye s .

I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a t t h a t s ta g e y o u r

What was – if I may rephrase.

What was the

r e a s o n f o r b r i n g i n g t h is a g r e e m e n ts t o y o u r a tt e n ti o n ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n I – my r e c o ll e c ti o n

is t h a t my o p in io n w a s – w a s s o u g h t o n t h o s e b e n e f ic ia r y a g r e e m e n ts
w h ic h I w a s p r e s e n te d w i t h . I w a s a ls o p r e s e n t e d w i t h a lis t o f n a m e s

Page 21 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
o f o t h e r b e n e fi c i a r i e s e x c e p t t h e n a m e s t h a t o r th e n a m e t h a t a p p e a r –
a p p e a r e d i n t h e c o n tr a c t. I v e r y b r ie f ly l o o k e d a t t h a t c o n tr a c t a n d i f I
t h i n k b a c k I a m a b i t e m b a r r a s s e d h o w h e r e a c te d .
I w a s q u i t e a n n o y e d w h a t I r e a d a n d I e x p r e s s e d t h a t i n – in
n o u n c e r t a i n t e r m s to D r M a s i t e n g .

I n o t ic e d t h a t o n – h e s ig n e d o n

b e h a l f o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d I a s k e d h i m w h e th e r h e w a s d e l e g a t e d .
H e i n d ic a te d n o t a n d I s a y y o u c a n th a n k h e a v e n s t h a t y o u a r e n o t
d e l e g a t e d b e c a u s e t h i s a g r e e m e n t is n o t v a li d b e c a u s e y o u w e r e n o t
p r o p e r ly d e le g a te d .
T h e p r o b l e m s th a t I j u s t p i c k e d u p fr o m a v e r y c u r s o r y g l a n c e

10

a t th e a g r e e m e n t w a s t h a t i t w a s n o t c l e a r w h a t w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o t h e
b e n e fic i a r y. I t j u s t r e fe r r e d t h a t t h e p r o je c t is tr a n s fe r r e d a n d h o w t h e
o th e r b e n e fic i a r i e s w i ll f it i n .

At that stage they were not in a

c o o p e r a ti v e o r a c o m p a n y. I t w a s j u s t i n d iv i d u a ls b u t i t a ls o c o n t a i n e d
c la u s e s t h a t t h e b e n e fi c i a r y m a y d is p o s e o f th e a s s e ts o f – o f t h e
project.
S o I s a i d t o t h e m i f t h e s e b e n e fi c i a r ie s n o w d e c i d e to s e l l
t h e s e p r o fi ts o r th e p r o j e c t a s s e ts w h ic h y o u s p e n t a l o t o f m o n e y o n
t o m o r r o w in te r m s o f th is a g r e e m e n t th e y c a n d o it . S o I s a i d t o t h e m
20

t h a t t h a t a g r e e m e n t is t o ta lly, t o ta ll y i n a p p r o p r ia t e f o r th e p u r p o s e I
t h i n k t h a t t h e y w a n t e d t o u s e i t fo r a n d th e y l e ft m y o ff ic e . W e h a d n o
f u r th e r d is c u s s io n th e n o n th e B e n e f ic ia r y A g r e e m e n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a t a g r e e m e n t a p p e a r s
on reference bundle – reference Bundle C page 1333. It is towards the
e n d o f th a t b u n d l e p a g e 1 3 3 3 . Ye s . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e j u s t t a k e u s t o

Page 22 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t h e – t h o s e c l a u s e s t h a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g to ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e g e t th e b u n d l e fir s t M s B u th e l e z i .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O h s o – s o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Reference bundle what?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e C . R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e C .
CHAIRPERSON: And what page?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 1 3 3 3 . I t i s t o w a r d s th e e n d o f t h e b u n d l e . I
a m a d v i s e d i t i s t h e l a s t d o c u m e n t i n th e b u n d le .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I a m g o in g t o a d j o u r n .

W il l s o m e b o d y s o r t o u t t h is

fi le p l e a s e ? W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
H E A R IN G A D J O U R N S
H E A R IN G R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s p r o c e e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a i r I w is h t o a p o lo g is e
f o r t h e – t h e m e s s th a t h a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W a s in – i n y o u r fil e .
CHAIRPERSON: No …

20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E I :

W e h a v e n o t ic e d t h a t y o u r f il e is t o o f u l l

b e c a u s e i t h a s d iv id e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : O u r s d o n o t h a v e . W e w i ll s e p a r a t e t h i s fi le
d u r i n g lu n c h b r e a k .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine.

Page 23 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u s o m u c h C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : M r Ve n t e r y o u w e r e to r e fe r t o t h e C h a ir t o
t h e c l a u s e s in t h a t b e n e f ic i a r y a g r e e m e n t t h a t is a p p e a r i n g o n p a g e
1 3 3 3 o f r e fe r e n c e B u n d l e A t h a t w h e r e y o u w e r e n o t c o m f o r t a b l e w i th .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e – t h e f ir s t p a r t

o f th e a g r e e m e n t c o m p l e t e ly d i d n o t f i t i n t o t h e p r o j e c t a s i t w a s
10

c o n s tr u c t e d a t t h a t t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n t h e d e s c r ip t io n o f t h e p a r t ie s o n t h e f ir s t p a g e .
I t is ju s t n o t o n .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I n d e e d C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: I mean a project cannot be a party …
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To a n a g r e e m e n t.

W h o d r a f ts th is – t h i s k i n d o f

a g r e e m e n t?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e n o i d e a .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

B u t w h a t r e a l ly c o n c e r n e d m e

w a s p a r a g r a p h s 8 . 2 .2 a n d 8 . 2 .3 o n p a g e 1 - 3 - 4 o f t h e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e
– 1-3-4-0.
CHAIRPERSON: 1-3-4-0.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s 1 3 4 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t 1 3 4 0 ?

Page 24 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : 4 0 y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

8 . 2 s ta r t s w it h th e b e n e f ic ia r y

s h e l l a n d th e n 8 . 2 . 2 p r o v i d e s fo r s e ll d is p e n s a r y p l a c in g e n c u m b e r s e a t
s ig n e d tr a n s fe r a n d s o o n , p r o je c t a s s e ts a n d t h e n 8 . 2 . 3 u s e c o n s u m e
a l ie n a te s e l l . A l th o u g h th e r e w a s a r i d e r th a t i t m u s t b e a p p r o v e d b y
t h e d e p a r t m e n t I t h o u g h t t h a t it w a s e x t r e m e ly r is k y to i n c l u d e s u c h
c la u s e s in th is a g r e e m e n t g iv e n t h e s i t u a ti o n o n th e g r o u n d w h e r e a
b e n e fic i a r y i s n o w a u t h o r i s e d to d e a l w it h th e p r o je c t a s s e ts in a
10

c e r t a i n w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a ls o th e b e n e fic i a r y w a s n o t a p a r ty t o th e

a g r e e m e n t . T h e b e n e f ic ia r y w a s a b e n e f ic i a r y …
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s s a i d t o r e p r e s e n t a p r o je c t y o u k n o w o r t h e
p r o j e c t a n d t h e n o b l i g a t io n s a r e p la c e d a n d r i g h t s a r e g iv e n t o t h e
b e n e fic i a r y b u t j a .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n th e – t h e b o t to m

li n e is …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I t w a s to t a l ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s …
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I n a p p r o p r ia t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

F o r t h e p u r p o s e i t w a s c r a f te d

f o r.

Page 25 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d - a n d y o u s a i d i t w a s s i g n e d b y

s o m e o n e w h o w a s a C h i e f D ir e c t o r a t th e ti m e a n d n o t b y th e H O D ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A t le a s t w h e n

y o u d is p o s e o f a s s e ts in a d e p a r t m e n t i t h a d t o b e d o n e b y t h e
a c c o u n t in g o ffi c e r a n d I s p e c i f ic a l ly r e q u e s t e d D r M a s i t e n g w h e th e r h e
w a s d e l e g a t e d a n d h e i n d ic a t e d n o .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

D i d h e e x p l a in t o y o u w h y i f h e w a s n o t – d i d n o t

h a v e t h e d e le g a ti o n w h y h e s ig n e d a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t s a i d h e w a s d u ly
a u t h o r i s e d b e c a u s e th a t i s w h a t it s a y s o n t h e fi r s t p a g e ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir to m y e m b a r r a s s m e n t I d id
n o t . I w a s f a ir ly u p s e t a s I i n d ic a te d a n d i t w a s w r o n g fr o m m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: to – to be upset and did not do
m y w o r k p r o p e r ly b e c a u s e I w a s r e a lly a n n o y e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l m a y b e th is w a s – m a y b e th is w a s a c le a r

e x a m p l e t h a t c o n tr a c ts in G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts s h o u ld n o t b e
fi n a l is e d b e f o r e th e y w e r e s e n t t o th e l e g a l a d v i s o r s i n t h e O ffi c e o f t h e
20

P r e m i e r.
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I n d e e d C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h is is w h a t w a s b e i n g d o n e .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Indeed.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e n l e t u s – l e t u s m o v e
o n th e n t o – t o t h e o r a l a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u g a v e to th e H O D i n

Page 26 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
p a r a g r a p h 2 – 2 .9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a l a d v ic e .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : S o r r y, o r a l a d v ic e . I a m s o r r y. I a p o l o g is e
s ir. O r a l a d v i c e t h a t y o u g a v e t o t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t M r T h a b e th e .
Yo u d e a l w it h th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 . 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M u s t w e p u t a w a y t h is – t h is fi l e n o w ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
10

MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e H e a d o f t h e

D e p a r t m e n t M r Th a b e t h e s e n t to m y o ff ic e a d r a f t m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h
h e i n te n d e d t o s u b m i t to t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il in w h i c h i t w a s
r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il a p p r o v e th e c a n c e l la t io n o f t h e
a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d E s ti n a . If I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly
it w a s t h e d a y b e f o r e t h e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c i l s a t o r t h e m o r n i n g b e f o r e i t
s a t a n d I j u s t v e r y b r ie f ly l o o k e d a t i t a n d I r e a lis e d t h a t i t o n ly r e f e r r e d
to one agreement.
A t th a t t i m e I w a s a lr e a d y a w a r e o f th e 9 9 Ye a r L e a s e a n d I
p r o p o s e d to h i m t h a t t h e a m e n d m e n t s h o u l d b e m a d e th a t t h e
20

memorandum

should

r e fl e c t

that

all

a g r e e m e n ts

between

the

d e p a r t m e n t a n d E s ti n a b e c a n c e l l e d s p e c i f ic a ll y w h ic h I h a d i n m y m in d
w a s t h e 9 9 Ye a r L e a s e w h ic h w a s e n c u m b e r in g th e l a n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

B y t h a t ti m e th e 9 9 Ye a r L e a s e h a d a lr e a d y b e e n

s ig n e d ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I n d e e d C h a ir p e r s o n i t h a d .

Page 27 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I t h a d b e e n s ig n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t w a s o n th e – a n d it w a s – o h t h a t w a s th e o n e
in te r m s o f w h ic h t h e m u n i c i p a l it y w a s g e tt i n g - w h a t d i d y o u s a y a b o u t a m il li o n R a n d ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t 9 9 Ye a r

Lease …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:
10

D i d n o t m a k e p r o v is i o n f o r a n y

compensation …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Fo r th e l e a s e p e r io d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d – a n d th a t l e a s e w a s b e t w e e n th e
Fr e e S t a t e G o v e r n m e n t a n d E s ti n a . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h a t is c o r r e c t.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h e m u n ic ip a l i ty w a s n o lo n g e r i n v o lv e d a t
that stage?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

20

No.

A t t h a t p o in t i n t i m e t h e

m u n i c i p a li t y tr a n s f e r r e d o w n e r s h ip o f t h e l a n d t o t h e F r e e S t a t e
P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u a n d th e n w h ic h y e a r w a s t h is

w h e n y o u – w h e n y o u g a v e M r T h a b e th e t h is o r a l a d v ic e ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

Page 28 of 129

C h a ir p e r s o n

it

was

in

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
M a r c h 2 0 1 4 . I f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u r e c a ll fo r h o w lo n g t h e 9 9 Ye a r L e a s e

A g r e e m e n t w o u l d h a v e b e e n r u n n i n g b y t h a t ti m e – b y M a r c h 2 0 1 4 m o r e
o r l e s s ? Tw o y e a r o r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I t w a s a b o u t a y e a r C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t a y e a r.
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Th a t 9 9 - th e tr a n s f e r a n d t h e 9 9
Ye a r L e a s e w e r e r e g i s te r e d a g a in s t t h e ti t le d e e d o f t h e p r o p e r ty e a r l y
in 2 0 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Yo u th e n i n p a r a g r a p h

2 .1 0 y o u r e f e r – y o u ta lk a b o u t th e – th e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f a n a g r e e m e n t.
T h i s is t h e Es t in a a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e A g r e e m e n t t h a t
w a s c o n c lu d e d i n 2 0 1 2 .

C a n y o u j u s t t e ll u s a b o u t y o u r in v o lv e m e n t

a n d th e c a n c e l la t io n a g r e e m e n t?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:
20

a p o lo g i e s .

C h a ir p e r s o n – ( c l e a r i n g t h r o a t )

A s f a r a s t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n l e t t e r w a s c o n c e r n e d t h e

m e m o r a n d u m t o th e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c il in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t
lo s t t h e g r a n t fr o m t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d t h a t a s a
r e s u l t o f th a t e s p e c ia ll y o v e r th e – th e p e r i o d f o r w h ic h t h e c o n t r a c t
w i t h E s ti n a w a s s u p p o s e d t o – t o l a s t t h e y a r e u n a b le to – to fu n d t h e ir
o b li g a ti o n s in t e r m s o f t h a t a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e y r e q u e s t e d p e r m is s i o n

Page 29 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
fr o m t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l o r a p p r o v a l fr o m t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l t o
cancel the - the agreement.
T h e E x e c u tiv e C o u n c il a p p r o v e d t h a t a n d I w a s a p p r o a c h e d
b y t h e h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o a s s is t t o d o t h e n e c e s s a r y p a p e r w o r k
t o c a n c e l t h e a g r e e m e n t . I p r e p a r e d t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n l e t te r s p e c i f ic a l ly
u s i n g th e p a r a g r a p h w h ic h w a s r e f e r r e d t o y e s t e r d a y.

1 5 .3 o f t h e

a g r e e m e n t – t h e J u ly a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n Es t in a a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t
b u t I c r a ft e d th e l e t te r in s u c h a w a y t h a t I k e p t d o o r s o p e n fo r a
p o s s i b le r e v i e w a p p li c a t io n fo r t h e i n i t ia l c o n tr a c t a s w e l l a s a r e v ie w
10

a p p lic a ti o n f o r t h e 9 9 Ye a r L e a s e .
W e h a d a b r i e f d i s c u s s i o n a m o n g s t u s a s l e g a l a d v is o r s a n d
w e t h o u g h t t h a t a t th a t p o in t in ti m e t h a t t h e r e v i e w a p p li c a t io n i n o r d e r
t o g e t o u t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w i t h Es t in a w a s a b i t r i s k y. T h e a p p r o p r i a te
functionary in terms of the Act approved the deviation and he was
a d a m a n t th a t h e h a d s u ffi c i e n t g r o u n d s a n d w e d i d n o t t h in k t h a t w e
w o u ld g e t c o o p e r a ti o n f o r h i m t o b e a n a p p l ic a n t in a r e v i e w
a p p lic a ti o n .
H e w o u ld p r o b a b ly b e a r e s p o n d e n t a n d it w o u ld h a v e c r e a t e d
p r o b le m s . I – w e h a v e a ls o p r o tr a c t e d le g a l p r o c e s s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e h e a d o f th e d e p a r t m e n t ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Indeed, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

S o w e o p te d t o i n v o k e t h e

Page 30 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
p o s i ti o n s o f C la u s e 1 5 . 3 a s t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n m e t h o d t o – t o c a n c e l t h i s
a g r e e m e n t a n d I c r a f t e d t h e l e t t e r, f o r w a r d e d i t to t h e h e a d o f t h e
d e p a r t m e n t a n d h e m u s t h a v e s e n t i t o ff t o E s ti n a b e c a u s e i n A p r i l a
le t t e r w a s s e n t to m y o ff ic e b y t h e h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t i n w h ic h
E s ti n a a c c e p t e d t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s a n d t h e n f o l lo w in g t h e – t h e l e tt e r fr o m
t h e h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t f o r c a n c e l la t io n w h o t h e n i n s tr u c t e d y o u to
d r a f t t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n a g r e e m e n t t h a t is a tt a c h e d t o y o u r a ff i d a v i t a s
Annexure F?
10

MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n – C h a ir p e r s o n I

m a y p e r h a p s ju s t a d d t o g iv e s o m e c o n te x t t o w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s t h a t
in th e a c c e p t a n c e o f th e c a n c e ll a ti o n b y E s ti n a t h e y i n d ic a te d th a t
t h e r e w a s a c e r t a i n a m o u n t d u e a n d o w i n g t o t h e m b a s e d o n i n v o ic e s
a lr e a d y s u b m i tt e d t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t . I e n g a g e d w i t h - w it h t h e h e a d o f
t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d h e s a i d - s e n t a s e t o f in v o ic e s t o m e t h a t h e h a s
r e c e i v e d fr o m E s ti n a .
I t w a s b a s ic a ll y a c o m p o s i t e s t a te m e n t r e fe r r i n g to i n v o ic e s
w h ic h w e r e s u b m i t te d t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t e a r li e r m o r e o r le s s o n a
m o n th ly b a s is a n d I r e a lis e d t h a t i t – th a t i f y o u l o o k a t t h e a m o u n t d u e
20

t h a t w e w il l h a v e t o h a v e a n a g r e e m e n t t o f o r m a l is e t h a t p a r t o f C l a u s e
1 5 . 3 a b o u t c o m p e n s a ti o n f o r t h e w o r k d o n e u p t o t h e p o in t o f
c a n c e l la t io n o f s u s p e n s i o n o f t h e a g r e e m e n t a n d I t h e n w i t h th e
in f o r m a ti o n p r o v i d e d b y th e d e p a r t m e n t p r e p a r e d t h a t a g r e e m e n t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th is a g r e e m e n t w a s p r e p a r e d b y y o u r s e l f?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

Indeed

Page 31 of 129

C h a ir p e r s o n .

The

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
r e s o l u ti o n o f th e Ex e c u t iv e C o u n c il a l s o p r o v i d e d t h a t t h e Fr e e S t a t e
D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t i o n s h o u ld t a k e o v e r t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f th e f a r m
a n d d u e t o th e u r g e n c y w h ic h I t h o u g h t i t r e q u ir e d I d i d t h e o n e
agreement

and

my

c o ll e a g u e

Advocate Swanepoel

did

the

FDC

Agreement.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u a n d w h a t w a s t h e t o ta l v a l u e o f
t h e o u ts t a n d in g i n v o ic e ?

T h a t w il l b e o n – o n A n n e x u r e A o f t h e

agreement on page 40 of 8-8-2.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:
10

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e i n f o r m a t i o n is

c o n ta in e d o n p a g e A J V 3 6 i n p a r a g r a p h 1 . 2 o f th a t a g r e e m e n t.

It was

R106 252 652.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Thank you.

T h e – t h e – y o u s a id t h e

a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h a t i n v o lv e s F D C w a s d r a ft e d b y y o u r c o ll e a g u e .
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W h o i n s tr u c te d y o u to d r a f t th a t a g r e e m e n t
– t h e FD C A g r e e m e n t n o w ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h a t
w e h a d s p e c if ic i n s tr u c t i o n s . I t w a s j u s t t o g i v e e ff e c t t o th e – t o t h e
20

r e s o l u ti o n o f t h e E x e c u ti v e C o u n c i l a n d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s
c o n ti n u i ty i n t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f th e f a r m w h e n t h e a g r e e m e n t w i t h
E s ti n a w a s c a n c e l le d .
CHAIRPERSON:

I h e a r d e v i d e n c e y e s t e r d a y th a t in t e r m s o f t h e

a g r e e m e n t th a t h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d w i t h E s t in a – Es t in a w a s o b li g e d t o
h a v e m a d e – t o h a v e – to h a v e m a d e a c e r t a i n fi n a n c i a l c o n tr i b u t io n t o

Page 32 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t h e p r o j e c t b u t t h a t i t n e v e r m a d e a n y p a y m e n t . S o i f t h a t is f a c t u a l ly
c o r r e c t I a m w o n d e r in g w h e t h e r t h e d e p a r t m e n t s h o u l d h a v e m a d e th e –
t h e p a y m e n t s o r a c k n o w l e d g e a n y o b li g a ti o n t o m a k e a n y p a y m e n t s t o
E s ti n a .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n y e s i t – it – I t h i n k
you are correct.

A t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e I w a s n o t a w a r e w h e t h e r a n y

p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e . A s I h a v e in d i c a t e d I r e c e iv e d a s e t o f i n v o ic e s
a n d I r e q u e s te d th e d e p a r t m e n t t o j u s t c o m p i l e i t i n t o o n e d o c u m e n t
t h a t c o u l d b e a t t a c h e d to t h e c a n c e l l a ti o n a g r e e m e n t i n s t e a d o f
10

s e p a r a t e i n v o i c e s b u t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th a t t h e s e in v o ic e s r e l a t e d
t o w o r k t h a t w a s a lr e a d y d o n e .
S o f o r v a l u e w h i c h th e d e p a r t m e n t h a s r e c e i v e d a t th a t p o i n t
in ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

But of course the department would not have to pay

E s ti n a fo r e v e n s e r v ic e s t h a t it m a y h a v e r e c e iv e d fr o m E s ti n a i f Es t in a
o w e d th e d e p a r t m e n t a n e q u a l a m o u n t o r e v e n m o r e . Is it n o t?
M y – m y r e c o ll e c ti o n fr o m y e s te r d a y ’s e v i d e n c e w a s th a t
E s ti n a w a s m e a n t to m a k e a c o n tr ib u ti o n o f a b o u t R 2 0 0 - a n d s o m e t h in g
m il li o n in t o t h e p r o j e c t a n d th e d e p a r t m e n t w a s m e a n t t o m a k e a
20

c o n tr i b u t i o n o f R 3 0 0 - a n d s o m e th i n g m i ll i o n i n t o th e p r o j e c t b u t th a t t h e
d e p a r t m e n t m a d e i ts c o n tr ib u ti o n a n d E s ti n a d i d n o t m a k e a n y
c o n tr i b u t i o n a n d fr o m w h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 3 6 w h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t
w a s s a y i n g t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s a c k n o w le d g i n g t h a t i t o w e d E s ti n a
106 252 000.

O b v i o u s ly a n a m o u n t th a t i s l e s s t h a n t h e a m o u n t th a t

E s ti n a is s u p p o s e d t o h a v e p a i d i n to t h e p r o j e c t .

Page 33 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

Ye s .

C h a ir p e r s o n E s ti n a – th e

c o n tr i b u t i o n o f Es t in a i f I u n d e r s to o d i t w a s to w a r d s th e c o m p le t io n o f
t h e p r o je c t a n d i ts e n t ir e t y. Th e R 1 0 6 m il li o n w a s f o r w h a t w a s a c t u a ll y
c o n s tr u c t e d o n t h e g r o u n d f o r w h ic h t h e d e p a r t m e n t – o f w h ic h t h e
d e p a r t m e n t w il l n o w r e c e iv e th e b e n e fi t u p o n c o n s o l a ti o n . E s ti n a w a s
not

supposed

to

r e c e iv e

any

b e n e f it s

subsequent

to

–

to

th e

c a n c e l la t io n i n r e s p e c t o f p r o j e c t a s s e t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d . Yo u a n d I g o d e c i d e
t o d o a p r o j e c t a n d w e a g r e e t h a t f o r t h is p r o j e c t w e w i ll p u t i n
10

r e s p e c ti v e a m o u n t s .

I put my amount.

Yo u d o n o t p u t a n y a m o u n t .

W h a t e v e r s e r v ic e s y o u a r e d o i n g a r e m e a n t to b e i n t e r m s o f t h i s
agreement as I understand.

Yo u m u s t t e ll m e i f m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is

correct.
H o w c a n y o u – h o w c a n y o u b e e n ti t le d t o m e p a y i n g y o u
a n y th in g in t e r m s o f t h is a g r e e m e n t w h e n y o u h a v e n o t p e r f o r m e d in
t e r m s o f th is a g r e e m e n t i n t e r m s o f t h e m o n e y t h a t y o u m u s t p u t in a n d
I a m t h e o n ly o n e w h o h a s b e e n fu n d i n g t h i s ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n

I

w il l

tr y

and

explain.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : My u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m tr y i n g t o j u s t u n d e r s t a n d .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Th a t b o th p a r t i e s h a d t o m a k e a

Page 34 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
c o n tr i b u t i o n a n d o n c e b o th p a r t i e s h a d m a d e t h a t c o n t r i b u t io n t h e r e
w o u ld b e a p r o j e c t t h a t w o u l d b e n e f it b o t h .

The Department of

A g r ic u l t u r e t h r o u g h th e b e n e f ic i a r ie s w o u ld r e c e iv e t h e b e n e f i t a n d t h e n
E s ti n a w o u l d r e c e iv e s o m e – s o m e d i v i d e n d s fr o m t h e p r o c e e d s w h i c h
t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t m a y r e n d e r a f t e r th e m il k h a s b e e n p r o c e s s e d .
T h a t is h o w I u n d e r s t o o d t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p . N o w t h e p r o j e c t a t
t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e d id n o t p r o g r e s s to i t s l o g ic a l c o n c l u s i o n .
t e r m in a t e d b e fo r e i ts lo g ic a l c o n c lu s i o n .

It w a s

So what was put onto the

g r o u n d w a s w h a t – is – i s w h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t r e c e iv e d a s a s s e ts d u e
10

t o t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f th e a g r e e m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s E s ti n a ’s o b l ig a ti o n t o m a k e – to m a k e – t o p a y

it s c o n tr i b u t i o n ?

Wa s t h a t o b l i g a t io n s u p p o s e d to b e p e r f o r m e d o r

c a r r i e d o u t a t t h e e n d o f th e p r o j e c t ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n m y u n d e r s t a n d in g

fr o m t h e o u t s e t w a s t h a t E s ti n a w o u l d c o n s tr u c t t h e p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t.
T h a t is t h a t c o n tr ib u ti o n a n d t h a t is w h y t h e a d v i c e w a s a ls o th a t t h a t
p r o c e s s in g p l a n t h a d t o b e c o n s t r u c t e d o n l a n d n o t b e lo n g i n g to t h e
m u n i c i p a li t y o r th e P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t in o r d e r t o m a k e s u r e th a t it
20

d o e s n o t f a l l w i th i n t h e d e fi n i t io n o f a p u b l i c / p r iv a t e p a r t n e r s h i p .
S o th a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t t h a t p r o c e s s i n g p la n t
w o u ld b e – E s ti n a ’s c o n tr ib u ti o n w o u l d b e to c o n s tr u c t t h e p r o c e s s i n g
plant.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t th is R 1 0 6 m il li o n w a s

a c t u a ll y p a i d to E s ti n a ?

Page 35 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ev e n tu a l ly y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n tu a lly ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y, w e ll i f – i f - th e l e g a l t e a m m a y o r m a y

n o t h a v e l o o k e d in t o t h e i s s u e b u t i f it h a s n o t i t s h o u ld l o o k in t o t h e
is s u e w h e t h e r i n t h e s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s Es ti n a s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p a i d
that amount. It may be that …
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e …
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I t m a y b e t h a t it s h o u l d h a v e b e e n p a i d .

It may be

t h a t it s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n p a i d b u t I t h in k w e h a v e a n o b l ig a ti o n to
t a k e a p o s i ti o n o n w h e t h e r t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d a n y o b li g a t i o n t o – t o
p a y t h a t a m o u n t i n t h e s e c ir c u ms t a n c e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W e a r e l o o k in g a t t h i s is s u e C h a i r a n d is s u e
w i ll b e le d i n t h a t r e g a r d , th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :
FDC.

T h e n le t u s m o v e t o th e i n v o lv e m e n t o f

W h o – i f I m a y a s k w e s a id i t w a s th e E x c o th a t m a d e a

r e s o l u ti o n t h a t FD C s h o u ld t a k e o v e r. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d w h a t w a s th e r e s o l u ti o n s a y in g .

W h a t w a s F D C s u p p o s e d to d o th e r e ?

To d o w h a t E s ti n a h a d b e e n

doing?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r

t h e e x a c t w o r d in g o f t h a t r e s o l u ti o n b u t my s e n s e is t h a t t h e Fr e e S t a t e
D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n s h o u ld t a k e o v e r t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f th e

Page 36 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
project.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Th a n k y o u a n d i n y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h a t

is t h e m a n d a te o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t io n ? W h a t d o e s
it d o i n t h e p r o v i n c e ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

C h a ir p e r s o n i t i s b a s ic a l ly t o

s u p p o r t s m a ll , m ic r o a n d m e d iu m – s m a ll , m e d i u m , m ic r o o r g a n i s a t io n s
S M M E s a n d a l s o to s t i m u l a t e e c o n o m ic d e v e l o p m e n t.

I heard the

a r g u m e n t y e s t e r d a y a b o u t w h e t h e r F D C w a s t h e a p p r o p r i a t e v e h ic l e
a n d I lo o k e d a t th e o b j e c ti v e s o f F D C a s i t is c o n ta in e d in t h e Ac t – t h e
10

Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t io n A c t – a n d w i t h a ll d u e r e s p e c t I
t h i n k i f y o u l o o k a t th o s e o b j e c tiv e s i t m a y in c l u d e t h e m a n a g e m e n t o f
t h is p r o j e c t a s a n e ff o r t t o s ti m u l a te t h e e c o n o m y o f t h e p r o v i n c e i n t h a t
area.
I m a y j u s t in d ic a t e t h a t a n d I m a y b e r ig h t o r w r o n g b u t m y
in it i a l p e r c e p t io n w a s th a t th is p r o j e c t w a s s u p p o s e d to b e th e s t a r t o f a
d a ir y h u b i n t h e N o r t h E a s t e r n p a r t o f t h e Fr e e S t a te . I t w o u l d n o t h a v e
b e e n l i m it e d t o w h a t w a s o n t h e g r o u n d d u r i n g t h is p e r i o d t h a t t h e
p r o j e c t la s t e d b u t i t w o u ld b e e x t e n d e d t o o t h e r f a r m s – c o u l d b e
a c q u ir e d f o r b e n e f ic ia r i e s w i t h t h e s a m e ty p e o f p r o j e c t w h e r e i n i t ia ll y a

20

p i e c e o f l a n d a n d a n u m b e r o f c o w s is g i v e n t o a b e n e fic i a r y b u t th e
b e n e fic i a r y is t h e n – th e r e is a l s o a m i lk i n g d a ir y – a m ilk i n g p a r l o u r
c o n s tr u c t e d o n t h a t o th e r f a r m in w h ic h b e n e fic i a r i e s r e c e i v e tr a i n in g
a n d e v e n t u a l ly h a v e a c o m m e r c i a l d a i r y b u s i n e s s o n a f a r m w h i c h w i ll
t h e n p r o v i d e m il k t o t h i s p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t o n t h e m u n ic i p a l l a n d t h e
in it i a l p l a n t t h a t h a s b e e n c o n s tr u c t e d .

Page 37 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
S o th e p ic t u r e t h a t I h a d in m y m i n d fr o m t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n
in it i a l ly w a s th a t i t w a s e n t e r e d c r e a ti n g a n e c o n o m i c in j e c ti o n in t o t h e
Northern Eastern Free State. So as I say with all due respect and once
I have heard that if two lawyers agree one is not a lawyer but I see a
b i t d i ff e r e n t ly th a n – t h a n m y c o ll e a g u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I h a d t h e o c c a s io n s o m e ti m e b a c k t o l o o k a t –
in t h e c o n te x t o f e v i d e n c e i n t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o l o o k a t w h a t I w a s t o ld
w a s t h e l e g is la t io n t h a t g iv e s t h e F D C p o w e r s t o d o c e r ta i n th i n g s o r i ts
- w h ic h c o n ta i n s i ts m a n d a te . S o I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w e r e l o o k i n g a t
10

t h e s a m e b u t w h a t I d o r e c a ll a b o u t t h a t le g is l a ti o n is t h a t w h a t is
s u p p o s e d t o b e s t a t e d a s t h e fu n c t i o n s is s t a te d a s o b j e c t iv e s a n d w h a t
is s ta t e d a s – a s o b j e c ti v e s a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e s t a t e d a s fu n c t io n s . I s
t h a t th e s a m e le g i s l a ti o n y o u l o o k e d a t ?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I t h i n k s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

W h a t w o u ld b e y o u r –

y o u r v ie w o n M r J a n k i e l s o h n ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u h e a r d y e s te r d a y t h a t
a s a r e s u lt o f E x c o a p p o i n t i n g o r r e c o m m e n d i n g t h a t F D C b e t h e –
s h o u l d m a n a g e t h e – t h i s d a ir y – d a ir y p r o je c t . I t w a s – t h e Fr e e S t a t e
20

G o v e r n m e n t w a s p a y i n g a n e x tr a m il li o n a m o n t h b e c a u s e F D C h a d to
e m p l o y a n o t h e r i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t t o o p e r a te o n t h e f a r m .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n I a m n o t r e a l ly a b l e
t o c o m m e n t o n th a t .

I w a s n o t i n v o l v e d in t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f a n y

a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e FD C a n d a n y s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r t o m a n a g e th e
f a r m . S o I a m n o t s u r e w h a t m o t iv a te d c e r t a i n a m o u n ts a n d o n w h a t i t

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w a s p r e m is e d a t t h a t p o i n t in t i m e . I t i s v e r y d i ff ic u l t f o r m e to s a y.
I t c o u l d b e t h a t i t w a s m o r e e x p e n s iv e b u t I a m n o t s u r e w h a t
p r e m is e d t h a t a d d it i o n a l a m o u n t w h e n t h e c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c lu d e d .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u a n d y o u r r e f e r e n c e t o E x c o in

t h is r e g a r d y o u m e a n t t h e Pr e m i e r a n d a l l t h e M E C s a t t h e ti m e . I s th a t
correct?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

That

is

correct.

Ar e

you

r e fe r r i n g t o th e d e c is i o n t o t e r m i n a t e t h e – th e a g r e e m e n t w i th E s ti n a ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Th a n k y o u .
10

MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Ja.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

Ye s a n d t h e n o n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 y o u s p e a k

a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d to th e o r i g i n a ls o f t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u
r e fe r r e d u s to . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e t a k e u s … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t 2 . 1 3 ?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : Ye s . 2 . 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : Ye s . C h a ir p e r s o n o n 2 6 J a n u a r y
la s t y e a r t h e H a w k s e x e c u t e d a s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n t o n t h e
O ff ic e o f t h e P r e m ie r.
20

I t m e a n s th e w h o le d e p a r t m e n t a n d th e y

o b t a i n e d r e c o r d s o f t h e m i n u te s a n d r e s o l u ti o n s o f t h e E x e c u ti v e
C o u n c il a n d w e i n d ic a t e d t o th e m t h a t w e h a v e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t f i ts i n t o
w h a t is c o n ta in e d i n t h e w a r r a n t b o t h i n m y o ff ic e a s w e ll a s t h e o ff ic e s
o f A d v o c a te s S w a n e p o e l a n d D it ir a a n d w e o ff e r e d to p r o v i d e th e m w i t h
t h a t a n d w e a s k e d t h e m w h e t h e r w e c a n m a k e – j u s t m a k e c o p i e s fo r
our own records.

Page 39 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
S o w h a t I c u r r e n tl y h a v e is c o p i e s o f t h e o r i g in a l d o c u m e n t s
w h ic h w e r e s e i z e d b y t h e H a w k s i n te r m s o f t h e w a r r a n t a n d I q u a li f y t o
s a y t h a t a l th o u g h I c a n n o t b e a b s o l u te l y 1 0 0 p e r c e n t s u r e t h a t a ll
d o c u m e n ts w h ic h w e r e in th e o r i g i n a l f il e h a s b e e n c o p i e d .

From my

r e c o l l e c ti o n it l o o k s lik e i t is q u it e a c o m p o s i t e r e c o r d o f w h a t e x is t e d
p r i o r in t h e o r ig in a l f il e s .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : T h a n k y o u . M r Ve n t e r is t h e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t
y o u w o u l d l ik e t o s h a r e w it h t h e C o m m is s i o n w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h is p r o j e c t
a s a w h o le a s t o h o w it w a s i n tr o d u c e d , h a n d le d a n d w h e r e i t is a t t h is
10

stage?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n a s I h a v e in d ic a t e d
y e s t e r d a y w h e n I in i ti a l ly h e a r d a b o u t t h e p r o j e c t I t h o u g h t i t w a s a
v e r y g o o d i d e a . I m u s t h o n e s t ly s a y I w a s q u i te e x c i te d a n d I h a d t h is
p ic t u r e i n m y m in d o f w h a t w ill b e th e o u tc o m e o f t h is .

It sounded

e x tr e m e l y g o o d a n d I s t il l t h i n k t h a t if i t w a s p r o p e r ly m a n a g e d to i ts
lo g i c a l c o n c l u s io n i t c o u l d s ti ll a s c e r t a i n w h a t w a s i n i t ia ll y e n v is a g e d .
W h a t i n t h e m e a n ti m e h a p p e n e d a n d I a m n o t a n e c o n o m is t o f
a n y k i n d b u t i t w a s s u p p o r t e d i n th e p a p e r s th a t t h e p r ic e o f m i lk w h i c h
t h e fa r m e r s a r e b e i n g p a i d h a s p l u m m e t e d s i g n i fic a n tly.
20

I am aware

t h a t – t h a t i n s o m e i n s ta n c e s a n d i t w a s r e p o r t e d i n n e w s p a p e r a r t ic le s
a n d t h a t i s w h e r e I p i c k e d i t u p t h a t f a r m e r s w e r e u n a b l e t o s e ll t h e ir
m il k t o p r o c e s s in g p la n ts a n d i t is fa ir ly b i g d a ir y o p e r a ti o n s t h a t c o u ld
n o t s e ll th e m il k .
F a r m e r s to o k th e ir t a n k e r s in t o t o w n s h ip s a n d t h e y ju s t
d is t r i b u t e d t h e m il k to – t o p e o p l e w h o e v e r t h e y w a n te d it b e c a u s e t h e y

Page 40 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
c o u l d n o t s e ll i t . S o i f y o u l o o k a t t h i s p r o je c t a n d m y c o l le a g u e s in th e
d e p a r t m e n t m a y b e a b le t o g iv e m o r e in f o r m a t io n i t n e e d – i t n e e d s n o w
s o m e in t e r v e n ti o n a n d in t e r m s o f t h e c o u r t o r d e r w h e n th e fa r m w a s
f o r fe i te d to t h e s t a t e a n d h a n d e d b a c k t o t h e Fr e e S t a te P r o v i n c ia l
G o v e r n m e n t t h e r e n e e d s t o b e a p l a n th a t lo o k s a t th e d iv e r s i fic a t io n o f
f a r m in g o p e r a ti o n s o n t h a t fa r m t o b e n e fi t t h e c o m m u n i ty.
I t c o u l d i n c l u d e t h e d a ir y.

It could include - and the court

o r d e r a ls o p r o v i d e d t h a t a m e n t o r w i th t h e n e c e s s a r y s k i ll s s h o u ld b e
a p p o i n t e d t o d e v e l o p t h a t d iv e r s i fic a ti o n p la n s p e c i f ic a l ly t o b e n e fi t th e
10

c o m m u n i ty a n d t h e p r o c e s s e s c u r r e n t ly u n d e r w a y t o – to tr y a n d m a k e
t h e fa r m v i a b l e a s a – a s a f a r m i n g o p e r a t io n w h i c h b e n e fi ts
s p e c i f ic a l ly th e c o m m u n i ty i n th a t a r e a .
C h a ir p e r s o n i f I j u s t m a y a d d s o m e th i n g a n d i t w a s d is c u s s e d
yesterday and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I th o u g h t a b o u t i t l a s t n ig h t a n d
t h a t i s c l a u s e – it is 3 . 1 5 – t h e c a n c e l l a t i o n c l a u s e i n t h e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : I t i s 1 5 . 3 .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

20

15.3.

C h a ir p e r s o n th a t is t h e

s t a n d a r d c l a u s e t h a t w e in c l u d e i n m o s t o f t h e a g r e e m e n ts w h e r e i t is
a p p r o p r i a t e a n d I th o u g h t I s h o u l d j u s t e x p l a in w h e r e i t c o m e s fr o m .
The

Free

State

Pr o v in c i a l

Governm ent

li k e

other

P r o v in c i a l

G o v e r n m e n t s h a s a s e a l e d e n v e l o p e o f m o n e y w h i c h b a s ic a l ly c o n s is ts
o f a n e q u i t a b l e s h a r e t h a t is r e c e iv e d fr o m N a t io n a l G o v e r n m e n t
d e t e r m i n e d i n a c c o r d a n c e w it h a s p e c i fic f o r m u la , t h e g r a n ts t h a t w e

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h a v e h e a r d a b o u t a n d th e n w h ic h a r e a d d i ti o n a l g r o u n d s f o r s p e c i fic
p u r p o s e s a n d t h e n o w n r e v e n u e a n d f o l lo w in g s o m e d is c u s s io n s t h a t w e
h a d w i t h Tr e a s u r y a n d s o m e b u d g e t - L e g o tl a m e e t i n g s t h a t I a t t e n d e d I
d is c u s s e d i t w i t h my c o ll e a g u e s a n d w e t h o u g h t t h a t w e s h o u ld
in tr o d u c e a m e c h a n is m i n o u r c o n tr a c ts th a t c a n p r o v i d e fo r a
r e p r i o r it is a ti o n o f p o lic i e s w h ic h w il l c a l l a r e p r i o r it is a ti o n o f fu n d s .
I f I m a k e a n e x tr e m e e x a m p l e .

I f f o r i n s t a n c e t h e r e is a

d is a s t e r in w h i c h a n u m b e r o f h o m e s o f p e o p le a r e d e s tr o y e d t h e r e is
n o t a c o n t i n g e n c y r e s e r v e d in G o v e r n m e n t i n t h e Fr e e S t a te P r o v i n c i a l
10

Government that we can use.

I t s i m p ly h a s t o c o m e fr o m a

r e p r i o r it is a ti o n o f fu n d s a n d o n e o f th e th in g s t h a t w e t h o u g h t t h a t w e
c o u l d d o is t o b u il d in a m e c h a n i s m i n o u r c o n tr a c ts th a t i f it i s
n e c e s s a r y a n d i f i t is p o s s i b le t o te r m in a t e a c o n tr a c t a t a c e r t a in o r a
p r o j e c t a t a c e r t a i n p o i n t i n ti m e to m a k e a d d it i o n a l fu n d s a v a il a b l e t o
d e a l w it h a n y c o n t in g e n c y th a t m a y a r i s e w e s h o u ld in c l u d e t h a t i n
c o n tr a c ts . S o I ju s t t h o u g h t I s h o u ld e x p l a in t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t is – t h a t is w h e r e i t c o m e s fr o m ?
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h e r e i t c o m e s fr o m ?
20

M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h a t is w h e r e it c o m e s fr o m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I t h i n k t h e – t h e p r o b l e m is th a t t h e r e is -

p r o b a b ly t h e r e s h o u l d b e a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e k i n d o f s i tu a ti o n y o u a r e
t a lk in g a b o u t b e c a u s e w h e n o n e r e a d s i t t h e w a y i t s t a n d s i t s e e ms t o
b e w i d e e n o u g h fo r a s it u a ti o n w h e r e m a y b e th e r e w a s n o t p r o p e r
p l a n n in g …

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fir s t i m p r e s s io n t h a t y o u k n o w y o u e m b a r k e d u p o n a
p r o j e c t w i t h o u t c h e c k i n g w h e th e r y o u h a v e g o t fu n d s …
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o n e c a n u n d e r s t a n d t h e k i n d o f s it u a ti o n y o u a r e
t a lk in g a b o u t .

It may be that you know your team could think about

w h e t h e r i t is f o r m u la t e d in t h e b e s t w a y o r n o t b u t t h a t is r e a ll y y o u r –
y o u r o w n d e c is io n .
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:
10

Thank you Chairperson.

s o u n d s d e fi n i t e l y f o ll o w i n g t h e e x p e r ie n c e h e r e .

It

I t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t

w e w ill lo o k i n g in t o m o r e c a r e f u lly.
CHAIRPERSON: No thank you. Are you done?
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I have no further

q u e s t io n s f o r M r Ve n te r.
CHAIRPERSON:
excused.

Ye s .

N o th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r Ve n t e r.

Yo u a r e

T h a n k y o u fo r c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n

a n d t o s h a r e w i t h t h e C o m m i s s io n t h e e x p e r i e n c e s y o u h a v e h a d a n d
t h e r o l e y o u p l a y e d i n r e g a r d t o th e a d v is e s t h a t y o u g a v e a n d y o u r u n i t
g a v e in r e g a r d t o t h is m a t te r.
20

M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : I a m g l a d t h a t I w i ll r e q u e s t e d t o
c o m e a n d e x p l a i n . I t w a s – i t w a s a g o o d e x p e r i e n c e f o r m e a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t a k e i t th a t th e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e C o m m is s i o n
h a s h a d a c h a n c e t o h a v e a lo o k a t a l l th e d o c u m e n t s t h a t y o u s a y y o u

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a r e k e e p in g o r a t l e a s t c o p ie s o f d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e r e t a k e n b y t h e
H a w k s t o s e e w h e th e r th e r e a r e n o d o c u m e n ts t h e r e t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t
for us. Do you know whether that has happened?
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : C h a ir p e r s o n n o b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR ALBERTUS JOHANNES VENTER:

Th e y a r e m o r e a n d w e lc o m e a t

a n y s ta g e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R A L B E R T U S J O H A N N E S V E N T E R : To ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

If th e le g a l te a m c o u ld c h e c k a ll o f t h o s e

d o c u m e n ts t o s e e w h e t h e r th e r e i s n o t s o m e t h i n g t h a t is i m p o r t a n t f o r
our purposes.
A D V Z IN H L E B U T H E L E Z I : W i ll d o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Mr Ve n t e r y o u a r e

e x c u s e d . W e w il l ta k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t n o w. I t i s 2 6 p a s t 11 . W e
w i ll r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r t o 1 2 . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms G c a b a s h e ?
A D V L E A G C A B A S H E S C : M o r n in g a g a i n C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Morning.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n w e a r e t o d a y d e a l i n g w i th

E x h i b i t H H 4 w h ic h i s t h e a ff i d a v i t a n d A n n e x u r e s o f M r E p h r a i m
M a k h o s in i D h la m i n i . H H 4 , E x h ib i t H H 4 .

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, th e fi le c o n ta i n i n g t h e a ff id a v i t o f M r E p h r a i m

M a k h o s in i D h la m i n i w ill b e m a r k e d a s E x h i b i t H H 4 .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . C h a ir m a n w i t h y o u r
le a v e Mr D h l a m i n i i s r e a d y to b e s w o r n i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e g o in g t o u s e a n i n te r p r e t e r t o d a y ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e h a v e a n in t e r p r e t e r s i t t in g w i t h M r

D h l a m in i .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M is s In t e r p r e te r a r e y o u t h e s a m e in t e r p r e t e r

that was sworn in last week?
10

I N T E R P R E T E R : Ye s C h a ir I a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o y o u a r e d u ly s w o r n ?
I N T E R P R E T E R : Ye s I w a s s w o r n i n Yo u r W o r s h i p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u . W e a r e g o i n g to a d m i n i s t e r th e
o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n a n d t h e i n t e r p r e te r w i l l in t e r p r e t th e o a t h .

P le a s e

s t a n d in t e r p r e t e r.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
WITNESS: Ephraim Makhosini Dhlamini
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
W I T N E S S : I h a v e n o o b j e c ti o n s .
20

REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n f ir m t h e o a th t o b e b in d i n g o n y o u r

conscience?
W I T N E S S : I s w e a r.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
WITNESS: So help me God.
I N T E R P R E T E R : S w o r n in .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

(duly

sworn, states)
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir j u s t a s a p r e fa c e M r D h l a m i n i is o n e
o f t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t.

Mr Dhlamini good

m o r n in g .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
10

Good

m o r n in g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

P l e a s e tu r n t o p a g e 1 o f t h e w i t n e s s

b u n d l e m a r k e d H H 4 th a t y o u h a v e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I am on

page 1.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l i f M r D h l a m i n i n e e d s a n in t e r p r e t e r h i m l o o k i n g

a t t h a t s ta t e m e n t is n o t g o i n g t o h e l p , i t w o u ld h a v e to b e th e
in t e r p r e t e r w h o lo o k s a t t h e s t a te m e n t a n d t h e n h e l p s h i m i n t e r m s o f
in t e r p r e t in g , i s n ’ t i t?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is s o C h a ir m a n , I h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h
20

t h e m o ti o n s o f i d e n t if y i n g , a t le a s t h is n a m e s , a n d t h e fa c t t h a t h e
s ig n e d t h e d o c u m e n t , h e k n o w s t h a t , t h a t i s h i s s i g n a t u r e a n d h e
r e m e m b e r s t h e d a t e , h e k n o w s th e d a t e o n w h i c h h e s ig n e d i t .

I

t h o u g h t i f w e g o t h r o u g h i t , ju s t h o s e fo r m a l it i e s , t h e r e s t w e ’ll t h e n a s k
t h e – h e ’s r e a lly g o i n g t o s p e a k to t h e d o c u m e n t C h a i r m a n , t h i s is j u s t
f o r t h e f o r m a li t y.

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u j u s t w a n t to c o n fi r m t h a t – h is s i g n a t u r e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C o r r e c t C h a ir m a n t h a t h e is E p h r a i m

D h l a m in i a n d t h a t ’s h i s s ig n a tu r e a n d t h e d a t e o n w h i c h h e s i g n e d th e
s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I ta k e i t th a t b e c a u s e h e s i g n e d a s ta t e m e n t t h a t
is i n E n g l is h th a t h is p o s i t io n is th a t h e d o e s u n d e r s ta n d E n g li s h a n d
d o e s u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e s ta t e m e n t s a y s b u t f o r p u r p o s e s o f h is
e v i d e n c e , h e p r e f e r s t o u s e a n o t h e r la n g u a g e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t is s o C h a ir m a n , p a r t ic u l a r ly b e c a u s e
10

it w a s th e n r e a d b a c k t o h i m b u t t h e n in is iZ u lu t h e s t a t e m e n t w r i tt e n i n
E n g l is h w a s th e n r e a d b a c k t o h i m i n is i Z u lu . S o h e d o e s n ’ t r e a l ly r e a d
E n g l is h , h e d o e s n ’ t r e a d i t a s w e l l h e ’s n o t a s fl u e n t , h e d o e s p r e fe r t o
g iv e h i s e v i d e n c e i n i s i Z u l u .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l th e n

there

is

something

wrong

with

the

s t a te m e n t , b e c a u s e t h e s t a t e m e n t d o e s n ’ t s a y i t w a s r e a d to h i m , i t ’s
h i m s p e a k in g E n g l is h i n t h is s t a t e m e n t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t d o e s n o t s a y th a t C h a ir m a n , t h a t I

concede.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o i f h e d o e s n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d E n g li s h t h e n i t m e a n s
20

what should have been done is that there should have been, either a
s t a te m e n t i n i s i Z u l u th a t h e m a d e a n d t h e n s o m e b o d y e ls e tr a n s l a t e d
t h a t s t a t e m e n t i n to E n g li s h o r t h e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a n in t e r p r e te r
c e r t if ic a te t h a t s a y s , I i n te r p r e t e d t h is s t a t e m e n t f r o m t h a t t o t h a t fr o m
t h a t p a r a g r a p h t o t h a t p a r a g r a p h t o h i m i n t o is i Zu l u a n d t h i s is w h a t h e
c o n fir m e d , b u t i f i t is i n E n g l is h a n d h e s i g n s i t t h e n i t ’s n o t c o r r e c t .

Page 47 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n , w it h y o u r le a v e , c o u l d w e j u s t
c o n fir m w i th M r D h la m i n i w h a t t h e p o s i t io n i s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u s i r.

O k a y I ’l l a d jo u r n f o r a s h o r t w h il e t h e n y o u ’ll l e t m e

k n o w o n c e y o u a r e r e a d y, w e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNED
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to proceed?
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a i r m a n .

C h a ir m a n t h e

le g a l t e a m h a s h a d d is c u s s i o n s w i th b o t h b e n e fi c i a r i e s , M r D h l a m in i
a n d M r N c o n g w a n e , th e y b o th c o n fir m t h a t t h e y c a n r e a d a n d
u n d e r s t a n d E n g li s h , t h e y h a v e r e a d t h e ir s ta t e m e n ts a n d u n d e r s t o o d
t h e m a n d t h e y th e n s ig n e d t h e s t a te m e n t s a f t e r h a v i n g r e a d th e m a n d
understood them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n s o I w o u l d s u g g e s t th a t t h e w a y
w e p r o c e e d is t h a t b e c a u s e M r D h la m i n i in t h is i n s t a n c e i s m o r e
c o m f o r t a b l e i n s p e a k in g h is m o t h e r to n g u e , is i Zu l u , I a s k t h e q u e s ti o n
20

in E n g lis h , t h e in t e r p r e te r i n te r p r e ts i t fo r h i m f o r c o n v e n i e n c e s a k e , h e
r e s p o n d s i n t h e l a n g u a g e h e is c o m f o r ta b l e w i t h , s h e w il l t h e n i n t e r p r e t
t h a t b a c k i n to E n g lis h a n d w e p r o c e e d a l o n g t h o s e l in e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t ’s d o i t th a t w a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Page 48 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Thank you Mr Dhlamini can I just ask

a g a in , c a n y o u p l e a s e c o n f ir m o n p a g e 1 t h a t th is is y o u r n a m e a n d o n
p a g e 9 t h a t , th a t i s y o u r s i g n a t u r e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Indeed

y o u r W o r s h ip t h e n a m e s t h a t a r e a p p e a r i n g o n p a g e 1 a r e m y n a m e s
a n d t h e s ig n a t u r e y o u r W o r s h i p a tt a c h e d th e r e t o o n p a g e 9 is m y
s ig n a tu r e , I c o n f ir m .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w e c a l l t h e D C J , t h e C h a i r m a n i n t h is
forum.
10

I N T E R P R E T E R : I’ m u s e d t o C o u r t s o e v e r y n o w a n d t h e n y o u w i ll h e a r
Yo u r W o r s h i p , s o p l e a s e p a r d o n m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I u n d e r s t a n d o k a y, a lr i g h t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u a n d y o u c o n fir m t h a t y o u a r e

f a m ili a r w i t h th e c o n t e n ts o f t h is s t a t e m e n t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It was

w r i t t e n b y m e s o I w il l n e v e r f o r g e t , i n d e e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Thank you very much.

Are there any

c h a n g e s t h a t y o u w o u l d w a n t to m a k e t o t h is s ta t e m e n t a t th is p o i n t in
ti m e ?
20

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

H a v e y o u h a d a n y i n t e r v ie w s w i t h a n y

in v e s t i g a t iv e a g e n c i e s w i t h r e g a r d s to t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m m a t t e r ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h o w e r e th e s e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Page 49 of 129

That is

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
c o r r e c t Yo u r W o r s h ip w e d id c a l l s o m e p e o p l e t o i n t e r v e n e o r t o t a lk to
r e g a r d in g th is m a t te r, i t w a s m o s t ly G o v e r n m e n t o ffi c i a l s , M r M a d i b a ,
M s G c a b a s h e a n d Ms S o g w a n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I a s k y o u t o d o t h i s f o r th e C h a ir m a n ,
I r e a l ly ju s t w a n t fo r m a l a g e n c i e s s u c h a s t h e H a w k s , o r t h e P u b l ic
P r o t e c t o r a s o p p o s e d t o G o v e r n m e n t o ffi c i a l s w h o m y o u m a y h a v e
in t e r a c te d w i t h .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

Correct

w e d id , w e d i d s p e a k t o t h e P u b li c Pr o te c t o r B u s is i w e M k h w e b a n e , w e
10

m e t h e r tw ic e in h e r o ffi c e a n d s h e a ls o c a m e d o w n t o Vr e d e to t a k e
down our statements.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u , y o u ’ ll g iv e t h e d e ta il o f t h a t

e v i d e n c e la t e r, w h i c h o t h e r a g e n c y o f G o v e r n m e n t h a v e y o u s p o k e n
with?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : O k a y w e
a ls o s p o k e t o t h e H a w k s Yo u r W o r s h i p , I a ls o h a v e a m e s s a g e , a S M S
o r a te x t m e s s a g e Yo u r W o r s h i p th a t I r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e m a n d w e a ls o
m e t u p w i t h t h e m Yo u r W o r s h i p o n a S a t u r d a y a n d a S u n d a y, th e y t o o k
d o w n o u r s t a t e m e n t s a s w e l l.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : M s G c a b a s h e I h o p e I d i d n ’ t m is s t h is , y o u m ig h t w i s h
to

ju s t t a k e c a r e o f e v id e n c e lik e w h e r e h e li v e s , b e c a u s e t h e

b e n e fic i a r i e s a r e s u p p o s e d t o b e p e o p le w h o l iv e i n a c e r ta i n a r e a ,
w h e r e h e li v e s a n d h is c o n n e c ti o n w i t h t h e p r o j e c t b e f o r e w e g o i n g i n to
c o n ta c t w i th t h e H a w k s a n d s o o n , y o u m i g h t w is h t o c o n s i d e r d o i n g
that.

Page 50 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s C h a ir m a n I w a s j u s t tr y i n g t o d e a l

w i t h t h e 6 5 tr a n s c r ip t io n r u le t h a t w e h a v e ju s t s o t h a t w e k n o w w h o
e ls e m a y h a v e a r e c o r d i n t e r m s o f o u r r u l e 6 5 o f w h a t t h i s w i t n e s s
m i g h t h a v e s a i d t o o n e o f o u r a g e n c ie s , I s t a r t w i t h t h a t s tr a i g h t a f te r
t h a t , i t w a s r e a lly ju s t a m a t te r o f c le a r in g t h e 6 5 r u le C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a l w a y s l o o k fo r t h e c o n n e c ti o n w it h th e w i t n e s s
fir s t s o – b e c a u s e t h e n a f t e r th a t o n e k n o w s , w h o is t h is o n e , h o w d o e s
h e c o m e in t o th is , y e s p r o c e e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n , c a n I d o t h a t, m y

n e x t q u e s ti o n is , w h e r e d o y o u li v e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I s t a y a t
T h e m b a li h l e To w n s h i p in Vr e d e , t h e a d d r e s s Yo u r W o r s h ip o f my
r e s id e n ti a l h o u s e is 2 3 8 7 K a n y a S tr e e t.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H o w l o n g h a v e y o u b e e n l iv i n g th e r e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Okay I

w a s b o r n in t h e f a r m s Yo u r W o r s h i p in Vr e d e t h e n I m o v e d t o
J o h a n n e s b u r g Yo u r W o r s h i p w i th w o r k b u t I c a m e b a c k h e r e 2 0 0 0 Yo u r
W o r s h i p t o b u il d – to r e b u i ld m y f a m ily ’s p r o p e r ty Yo u r W o r s h ip a n d I
s t a y e d t h e r e a t M o d is a u n t il n o w.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Are you employed?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I’ m s e l f

employed.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t b u s in e s s a r e y o u e m p l o y e d i n ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I’m a

f a r m e r, I h a v e 5 2 c a t tl e i n th e h o m a g e o f th e M u n ic i p a li ty, I a m , Yo u r

Page 51 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
W o r s h i p b e n e fi t t in g o r h a v e m a d e p r o c e e d s fr o m t h e s e c a t tl e a n d I a ls o
h a v e a n o t h e r b u s in e s s o f a r e c o r d b a r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Thank you.

P le a s e d e s c r i b e t h e

e n v ir o n m e n t o f Vr e d e f o r t h e C h a ir m a n , t h e e n v ir o n m e n t y o u li v e i n ,
w h ic h w o u l d i n c l u d e T h e m b a li h le To w n s h ip .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Okay

T h e m b a li h l e To w n s h i p o f Vr e d e Yo u r W o r s h ip i t ’s a v e r y s m a ll a r e a
t o w n s h i p , th e r e i s a h i g h u n e m p l o y m e n t r a te t h e r e a n d m o s t ly p e o p l e
a r e w o r k i n g in t h e f a r m s a n d t h e y a r e e a r i n g f a r l e s s o r le s s m o n e y.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Like I

p l a c e d i t o n r e c o r d C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e is a h i g h u n e m p l o y m e n t r a te i n
t h e a r e a s o y o u n e e d to b e v e r y c r e a ti v e in t e r m s o f tr y i n g t o m a k e
m o n e y a n d m o s t p e o p l e , C h a ir p e r s o n , ju s t to p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d , t h e y
a r e w o r k i n g o u t s i d e Vr e d e t o e a r n m o n e y f o r a li v i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

In paragraph 2 of your statement, you

m e n ti o n th a t y o u a r e t h e c h a ir m a n o f th e A fr ic a n F a r m e r s A s s o c ia t io n
a n d th a t M r N c o n g w a n e is a m e m b e r a s w e ll .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :
20

That is

correct.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h a t i s M r N c o n g w a n e ’s p o s i ti o n in th is

o r g a n i s a t io n ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : H e ’s m y
d e p u ty.
ADV

LEAH

GCABASHE

SC:

What

does

Page 52 of 129

the

A fr ic a n

Farmers

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
A s s o c ia t io n d o , w h a t ’s y o u r c o r e b u s i n e s s a s a n a s s o c i a t i o n ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : O k a y w e
a r e r e p r e s e n t in g s m a l l f a r m e r s i n t h e a r e a a n d w h e n e v e r t h e r e a r e a n y
a c ti v i ti e s c o mi n g fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e w e g o b e tw e e n t h e
f a r m e r s a n d th e A g r i c u l tu r e D e p a r t m e n t a n d w h e n e v e r t h e r e is d r o u g h t
w e s e e k a s s i s t a n c e fr o m t h e A g r ic u l t u r e D e p a r t m e n t a n d m a y b e f o r
food

a n d s t u ff w e r e q u e s t

h e lp

fr o m t h e m , s o

w e ’r e

b a s i c a ll y

r e p r e s e n ti n g th e s m a ll f a r m e r s i n t h e a r e a
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A r e t h e r e a n u m b e r o f s u c h s m a ll f a r m e r s
10

in y o u r a r e a ?
I N T E R P R E T E R : Is t h e r e – s o r r y c a n y o u p le a s e r e p e a t?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A r e t h e r e a n u m b e r o f s u c h s m a ll f a r m e r s
in y o u r a r e a ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

There

a r e a n u m b e r o f f a r m e r s , i n fa c t m o s t p e o p l e l iv e o n f a r m i n g Yo u r
Worship in the area, most of the people who are residing in the area,
lik e I s a i d a r e liv in g o n f a r m i n g , t h e y h a v e c a t t le t h a t t h e y c o m e w i t h
fr o m t h e f a r m s a n d r e m e m b e r w e c o n s is t o f p e o p l e c o m i n g fr o m
( in d is ti n c t) a n d W a r d e n s o m o s tly t h e y a r e f a r m e r s w h o li v e o n c a t tl e o r
20

f a r m in g t o s u r v i v e .

L i k e I s t a te d Yo u r W o r s h i p w h e n e v e r th e r e ’s

d r o u g h t t h e c a t tl e w o n ’ t h a v e s o m e t h i n g t o e a t , s o I w o u l d w r i t e a le t t e r
r e p r e s e n ti n g th e s m a ll f a r m e r s i n t h e a r e a t o s e e k h e l p Yo u r W o r s h i p i n
t e r m s o f g e t ti n g f o o d fo r th e c a t t le i n t h e a r e a .

S o I b a s i c a ll y a s s is t

with

th e

that

by

w r i t in g

or

c o m m u n i c a t in g

A g r ic u l t u r e .

Page 53 of 129

w it h

Department

of

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
CHAIRPERSON:

M o r e o r le s s , h o w m a n y m e m b e r d o e s t h e A fr ic a n

F a r m e r s A s s o c i a ti o n h a v e o r th e Vr e d e c h a p t e r o f th e A f r i c a n Fa r m e r s
A s s o c ia t io n h a v e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Okay a

y e a r b e fo r e l a s t Yo u r W o r s h i p f a r m e r s fr o m Vr e d e w h o a r e b e lo n g i n g t o
t h e a s s o c i a ti o n Yo u r W o r s h ip w e r e 8 2 , a n d n o w Yo u r W o r s h i p th e
n u m b e r is s i tt i n g a t 1 2 0 f a r m e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

Now you state that you have personal

k n o w l e d g e o f t h e m e e t in g s t h a t l e d t o t h e s e l e c t i o n o f b e n e fic i a r i e s fo r
t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m P r o j e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

When it

w a s i n i t ia t e d I w a s t h e r e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Please explain to the Chairman in short

b i ts w h e n t h e s e m e e ti n g s t o o k p l a c e , w h e r e t h e s e m e e ti n g s t o o k p l a c e ,
w h o a t te n d e d t h e s e m e e t in g s ? C a n I ju s t a s s is t y o u w i t h s tr u c tu r e , s o
if y o u c o u l d s t a r t w i t h t h e fir s t m e e ti n g a n d c o m p le t e t h a t b e f o r e y o u g o
to the second meeting.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
20

Fi r s t

m e e ti n g I w a s p r e s e n t w e w e r e c a ll e d in a m e e ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n b y M r
Z w a n e w h o w a s a M E C a t t h e ti m e , t h e m e e t in g w a s h e l d a t ( in d i s ti n c t)
h a ll in t h e t o w n s h ip .

T h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n , w e g r o u p e d o u r s e lv e s in t o

o th e r r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s w h a t th is g r o u p w ill d o a n d w h a t th is o th e r g r o u p
w i ll d o .

I’ d l ik e t o p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d C h a ir t h a t G o v e r n m e n t o ff ic i a l s

w e r e a ls o p r e s e n t i n t h e s a i d m e e ti n g , M r Z w a n e w a s p r e s e n t , I k n o w

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
h i m , I e v e n k n o w h is – I k n o w h i m p e r s o n a ll y I e v e n k n o w th e fa t h e r,
e v e n t h e p l a c e w h e r e I k e p t m y c a tt l e Yo u r W o r s h ip it w a s h is fa t h e r ’s
p r o p e r ty b e f o r e . Th e r e w a s a l s o M r T h a b e th e , Mr M o t a u n g , t h e M a y o r
a s w e ll w a s p r e s e n t , th e r e w a s

a ls o

J i m m y P a g h l e l e s ta t io n o ff ic e r,

Tu t o G a n y e w a s a l s o p r e s e n t , K o l iz a S e b e g o , I d o n ’t k n o w, Yo u r
W o r s h i p w h a t w a s t h e ir p o s i t io n i n t h e A g r ic u l t u r e D e p a r t m e n t b u t i t
w a s a t t h e ti m e w h e n Mr Z w a n e w a s t h e M E C , M r S e b e n z i Z w a n e ,
b a s ic a lly w h a t h e s a i d is th a t th e s e p e o p l e w e r e h is e y e s a n d e a r s
s in c e h e is in t e r e s t e d in t h e p o l i tic s Yo u r W o r s h i p , w h e n e v e r h e is n o t
10

t h e r e , t h e y w i ll b e th e r e t o l is t e n t o w h a t p e o p l e a r e s a y i n g , b a s i c a ll y
h is e y e s a n d e a r s , w h e n t h e r e ’s m e e ti n g s a n d h e ’s n o t th e r e .

There

w a s a ls o D u b e G o b e n e a m u n i c i p a l e m p lo y e e , t h e n t h e m e e ti n g
r e s u m e d o r s t a r t e d …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n I j u s t a s k y o u , i f I m ig h t i n t e r r u p t

y o u , fr o m th e c o m m u n i ty a r e y o u a b l e t o i d e n ti fy s o m e o f t h e p e o p le
y o u k n o w w h o w e r e a t t h a t f ir s t m e e ti n g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : M is h a c k
Nxuwane, most of them they were there present at the meeting that I
c a n a ls o i d e n ti f y M i s h a c k N x u w a n e , W ill i a m K a n y e , … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll m a y b e le t m e s a y t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n a

h u n d r e d p e o p l e th e r e w e d o n ’ t w a n t y o u t o m e n t io n a ll o f t h e m s o j u s t
t h o s e t h a t y o u t h i n k , i n t e r m s o f th e r o l e s t h e y p la y e d a r e i m p o r ta n t
t h e n y o u c a n i n d i c a t e th a t t h e y w e r e – s o t h e r e w e r e o t h e r s a n d y o u
c a n g i v e a n in d ic a ti o n o f t h e n u m b e r i f y o u a r e a b le t o s a y, w e ll fr o m
t h e c o m m u n i ty m a y b e t h e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n a b o u t 3 0 o r 4 0 o r w h a t e v e r

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p e o p l e , y o u d o n ’ t n e e d t o m e n t io n e a c h a n d e v e r y o n e o f th e m .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : P h i le m o n
N g w e n a w a s th e r e , L in d iw e M a s i te n g w a s a ls o t h e r e … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y, P h il e m o n , d i d y o u s a y P h il e m o n N g w e n a o r
P h il e m o n N k w e n a ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : N g w e n a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay and I don’t know if Ngwena and Nkwena mean

t h e s a m e t h i n g s o m a y b e ( la u g h t e r ) .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :
10

a l m o s t a h u n d r e d c h a i r a s c o m m u n i ty m e m b e r s .

We

Most members were

t h e r e Yo u r W o r s h ip – C h a ir th e r e w e r e t h o s e w h o w e r e in p o u lt r y
f a r m in g , d a ir y, p i g a n d r e d m e a t a n d I a m r e p r e s e n ti n g th e r e d , o r I a m
d e a li n g w it h th e r e d m e a t s in c e I h a v e c a t t le .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h o a d d r e s s e d y o u a t t h a t m e e t in g ?

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Mr

S e b e n z i Z w a n e w a s a d d r e s s i n g t h e m e e t in g , M r M o t a u n g is t h e o n e
w h o o ffic i a l ly o p e n e d th e m e e ti n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h a t is t h e p o s i ti o n o f M r M o t a u n g i n

Vr e d e ?
20

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : H e is th e
m a y o r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u c o n ti n u e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : I t w a s i n
t h a t m e e t in g w h e r e M r Z w a n e r e q u e s te d u s t o g r o u p o u r s e lv e s . H e s a i d
w h e n e v e r h e is i n i t ia t in g a p r o j e c t h e w a n t s i t to b e a s u c c e s s o r a v e r y

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
s u c c e s s fu l p r o j e c t .

H e s a id i f i t i s g o in g to b e a d a ir y p r o je c t t h e r e

s h o u l d b e a c t iv i t ie s t h e r e lik e m il k i n g a n d t h e n p r o c e s s i n g t h e s a id m i lk
in t o y o g h u r t, c h e e s e a n d e v e r y t h in g .

L i k e I’v e p l a c e d in o n r e c o r d

C h a ir, t h a t I h a v e c a t t le s o I w a s o n th e g r o u p o f r e d m e a t a n d th e n o n
d a ir y i t w a s Mr N x o n w a n e w a s p a r t o f t h e d a ir y g r o u p a n d th e r e w e r e
a b o u t fiv e o r s ix m e m b e r s .

A f t e r w e h a v e g r o u p e d o u r s e l v e s Yo u r

W o r s h i p – C h a ir w e t h e n w r o t e d o w n t h e n a m e s s o th a t w e w o u l d b e
a b l e t o i d e n t i fy w h o i s o n w h ic h g r o u p a n d h o w m a n y m e m b e r s a r e
there in each group. He had a – or he has a sense of humour and he
10

w a s th e r e c r a c k i n g j o k e s a n d s a y i n g t h a t h e k n o w s u s p e r s o n a lly a n d
w h e r e w e g r e w u p a n d w h e r e w e a r e c o m i n g fr o m a n d th a t h e w a n ts t o
do

good

th in g s

for

a ll

of

us.

After

that

the

m e e t in g

was

d is s o lv e d …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B e fo r e y o u g o t o th e e n d o f t h e m e e t i n g ,

h o w d id y o u r e c e iv e w h a t M r Z w a n e w a s t e l li n g y o u d i d i t s o u n d l ik e
s o m e t h i n g t h a t c o u ld h a p p e n t h a t h e c o u l d b r i n g t o Vr e d e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

In d e e d

Yo u r W o r s h ip – C h a i r it s o u n d e d l ik e a v e r y g o o d p r o j e c t , w e w e r e
h a p p y w i t h i t a n d w e th o u g h t it w o u l d y ie ld g o o d r e s u l ts b u t o t h e r s w e r e
20

s u s p i c i o u s b e c a u s e o f th e f a c t th a t Mr M o t a u n g w a s p a r t o f t h e m e e ti n g
t o a p o i n t t h a t M r S e b e n z i Z w a n e d i d e n q u ir e a s t o h o w m a n y w h o d o n ’ t
approve of Mr Motaung.

I k n o w a f e w p e o p l e d i d r a is e th e i r h a n d s

t h o s e th a t d i d n o t a p p r o v e o f Mr M o ta u n g a s t h e m a y o r, I k n o w th a t M r
N x u w a n e is o n e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o r a i s e d a h a n d o f d i s a p p r o v i n g Mr
Motaung and he then – and he requested, Sebenzi Zwane requested the

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r e a s o n s w h y t h e y d i d n o t lik e o r d is a p p r o v e o f h i m . Th e y th e n g a v e t h e
r e a s o n s a s t o w h y t h e y w e r e d is a p p r o v in g o f h i m a n d o n e o f th e
r e a s o n s Yo u r W o r s h i p , w a s , w h e n w e w e r e r e q u e s t i n g to g e t t h e la n d
h e w a s n o t r e s p o n d in g o n th e l e tt e r s o r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e s t o h i m ,
s p e c i f ic a l ly r e q u e s ti n g t h a t w e h a v e t h e l a n d , h e n e v e r r e s p o n d e d , s o
o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w a s t h a t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B e f o r e y o u d e a l w i t h th e is s u e o f l a n d

t h a t h a d b e e n r e q u e s te d , g o b a c k t o w h a t th e o u t c o m e o f th e m e e ti n g
w a s fo r y o u , y o u w e r e a b o u t t o t e ll u s a b o u t t h a t a n d I h a d i n t e r r u p t e d
10

you.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I w a s n o t
in t e r e s te d in t h e d a ir y f a r m , r e a s o n b e i n g th a t I s p e c ia li s e o r I h a v e
c a t tl e fo r r e d m e a t a n d I h a v e s e e n m o s t o f t h e w h i t e f a r m e r s a r e n o t
s u c c e e d i n g w h e n t h e y a r e r u n n i n g a d a ir y p r o j e c t s o t h a t is w h y I h a d
n o in t e r e s t , my in t e r e s t w a s o n th e r e d m e a t s i n c e I h a d c a t tl e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n w a s t h e – w h e n w a s t h is m e e ti n g i f y o u a r e

able to remember?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h o u g h I
d o n ’t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y th e d a t e o f t h e m e e t in g b e c a u s e t h e m e e ti n g s
20

w e r e d o n e b y th e m u n i c i p a l w o r k e r s o r G o v e r n m e n t o ff ic i a ls th e y
w o u ld n ’t b e g iv e n th e c o p i e s o f th e m e e ti n g s s o I d o n ’ t h a v e r e f e r e n c e
t o t h e d a t e s , b u t w h e n t h is d a i r y p r o j e c t w a s i n i t ia t e d Yo u r W o r s h i p , i t
w a s t h e y e a r 2 0 1 2 . T h o u g h t I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e d a te s p r e c is e l y,
b e c a u s e t h e s e e v e n t s w e r e h a p p e n i n g q u i c k e r a n d f a s te r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Th e r e a r e s o m e m e d ia a r t ic l e s t h a t w e

h a v e c o ll e c t e d fr o m o p e n s o u r c e m e d i a a n d t h e r e is o n e t h a t is w r i t te n
o n t h e 2 8 t h o f A p r il 2 0 1 8 , C h a ir m a n f o r y o u r r e f e r e n c e t h e r e is a m e d i a
b u n d l e th a t y o u h a v e a t y o u r d is p o s a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h i s p a r ti c u l a r a r tic le is o n p a g e 8 .

Yo u m a y w a n t t o r e a d i t l a te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m j u s t g o in g to s u m m a r i s e t h e s a li e n t
10

points.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h a t I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o d o i s t e l l th e

C h a ir m a n i f t h is i s y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th a t d a y in
2012?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And I quote:
“ Vr e d e S o u t h A f r ic a w it h l o u d s p e a k e r s b l a r in g c i ty
o ffic i a ls d r o v e a c r o s s th e b l a c k t o w n s h i p s d ir t r o a d s
in a p ic k u p tr u c k s u m m o n i n g r e s i d e n t s t o t h e t o w n
20

h a ll . ”
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
“ T h e m a i n g u e s t w a s a l o c a l fi g u r e w h o h a d s o a r e d
u p t h e r a n k s o f t h e g o v e r n i n g A fr ic a n N a t io n a l
C o n g r e s s a n d c o m e b a c k w i t h a n e n t ic i n g o ffe r. ”

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
“ O v e r t h e n e x t fe w h o u r s th e v is i ti n g p o l it ic a l b o s s
M o s e b e n z i J o s e p h Z w a n e s o l d t h e m o n h is la t e s t
d e a l. ”
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
“ A g o v e r n m e n t b a c k e d d a ir y

f a r m t h a t th e y

as

la n d l e s s b l a c k f a r m e r s w o u l d c o n t r o l . ”
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
“ T h e y w o u l d g e t a n o w n e r s h ip s t a k e i n t h e b u s i n e s s . ”
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
“J u s t b y s i g n in g u p . ”
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
“ T h e y w o u l d g o t o I n d i a fo r tr a i n in g a l l e x p e n s e s
paid.”

20

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
“ To h e a r h i m t e l l i t th e d a i r y w o u l d b r i n g jo b s t o t h e
i m p o v e r is h e d , h e l p b u i l d a c li n i c a n d f ix th e r o a d s . ”
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e r e i s m o r e M r D h la m i n i in t h a t a r t ic le .

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W h a t I w a n te d to c o n fir m is w h a t y o u h e a r d a t t h a t f ir s t m e e t i n g is w h a t
I have just read to you.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s w e d i d h e a r a b o u t t h a t b u t
in t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g w h e r e – w h ic h w a s a d d r e s s e d b y M r M o s e b e n z i
Zwane.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P l e a s e e x p la i n w h a t y o u t h e n h e a r d i n th e
s e c o n d m e e ti n g th a t is d i ff e r e n t t o w h a t y o u h e a r d i n t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

What we heard in the second

m e e ti n g n o w C h a ir i s th a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o e s t a b li s h o r s ta r t u p a
10

d a ir y f a r m in Vr e d e w i t h 1 0 0 b e n e f ic ia r i e s a n d th a t a s b e n e f ic i a r ie s w e
w i ll h a v e a 5 2 % s ta k e i n t o t h e fa r m o r t h e p r o j e c t .

I t is a ls o c o r r e c t

t h a t 2 0 % w a s s a i d t o b e g o i n g t o g o t o w a r d s th e c o n s t r u c t i o n s o f r o a d
o f a h o s p i ta l a s w e l l a s b u r s a r i e s fo r t h e c h i ld r e n o r o u r c h i l d r e n i n t h e
a r e a . A n d th e n 2 8 % w i ll g o t o t h e g o v e r n m e n t a c c o r d i n g t o th e m .

It

w a s g o o d n e w s t o u s a n d w e w e r e h a p p y w it h t h a t . I w a s n o t i n t e r e s te d
in t h e d a ir y f a r m i n g lik e I s a i d b u t w h e n I h e a r d a b o u t u s b e i n g t a k e n t o
I n d ia fo r tr a i n i n g t h a t – f o r tr a i n in g o f w h a te v e r i s g o i n g to h a p p e n i n
t h e d a ir y o r th e fa r m i n g – o k a y w h e n y o u – y o u w il l h a v e a c h o i c e o f
w h a t y o u w a n t t o b e tr a in e d o n – w h ic h o n e a r e y o u i n te r e s t e d i n . W e
20

were excited about it.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w w h o o f g o v e r n m e n t o ffic i a ls a t te n d e d
t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

M r Th a b e t h e w a s a l w a y s

p r e s e n t w h e r e t h e r e is M r M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e . T h e m a y o r a s w e l l w a s –
w o u ld b e p r e s e n t a n d D u m e .

D u m e w a s a m u n ic i p a li ty e m p l o y e e o r

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
o ffic i a l . M r M p h a h l e l e fr o m A g r ic u l t u r e t o o [ i n d is ti n c t ] M r S e b e k o t h e y
w o u ld a l s o b e p r e s e n t i n th e m e e t i n g .

That is where we would see

t h e m i n p e r s o n Yo u r W o r s h i p w e k n o w t h e m p e r s o n a ll y a n y w a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A r e y o u s a y in g M r Zw a n e w a s th e r e a s

w e ll ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s h e w a s . O n t h a t d a y y e s
he was present.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e w e g o fu r t h e r i n t o th e s e c o n d m e e t in g c a n I

t a k e y o u b a c k t o t h e f ir s t m e e t in g ? Yo u t o l d m e t h a t M r Z w a n e s p o k e
10

b u t y o u d i d n o t t e l l m e w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s a n y b o d y fr o m t h e F a r m e r ’s
A s s o c ia t io n w h o a ls o s p o k e a t t h e m e e ti n g .
whether there

S o I w o u l d l ik e t o k n o w

w a s a n y b o d y w h o s p o k e o n b e h a l f t h e F a r m e r ’s

A s s o c ia t io n a n d a n y o th e r p e r s o n w h o s p o k e o n a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u
c o n s i d e r to h a v e b e e n i m p o r ta n t .
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI: The main speaker on the day
in q u e s ti o n Yo u r W o r s h i p o r t h e p r o m in e n t s p e a k e r o n t h e d a y i n
q u e s t io n it w a s M r M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e Yo u r W o r s h i p – I m e a n C h a ir a n d
t h e n t h e m a y o r M r M o t a u n g u t te r e d t h e w o r d s t h a t h e i s a l s o h a p p y t h a t
s o m e o n e w h o a ls o g r e w u p i n t h e v e r y s a m e a r e a i n Vr e d e Yo u r
20

W o r s h i p is b r i n g i n g g o o d n e w s to th e c o m m u n i t y. T h o s e w e r e t h e m a in
s p e a k e r s o n t h e d a y in q u e s ti o n a n d t h o s e a r e th e p e o p l e w h o
s u m m o n e d o r c a l l e d th e m e e t i n g .

N o - o n e e ls e a d d r e s s e d o r s p o k e i n

t h e m e e ti n g e x c e p t w h e n w e w e r e n o w s o c i a lis i n g Yo u r W o r s h i p t h e n
jo k i n g t h e r e – j a th a t is a l l .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

Page 62 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
la s t a s p e c t o f m e e t i n g 1 ?

Thank you.

C a n I ju s t a ls o t id y u p o n e

W h a t – W a s M r Z w a n e ’s w i f e Ms R o s e l in e

Z w a n e w h o is k n o w n a s To p s y a ls o a t t h a t fir s t m e e t in g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I d o b e l i e v e I tr u s te d s h e w a s
p r e s e n t o n th e d a y i n q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e a l o t o f p e o p le w h o
w e r e p r e s e n t w h e n M r Z w a n e w a s th e r e o r w h e n h e c a m e th e r e . T h e
c o u n c i ll o r b y th e n a m e o f K o k o w a s a ls o t h e r e . T h o s e a r e th e n a m e s
Yo u r W o r s h ip w h ic h d o n o t a p p e a r i n t h e s t a te m e n ts b e c a u s e w e o n ly
m e n ti o n e d t h e n a m e s o f t h e p e o p le w h o w e r e t h e r e t o a d d r e s s u s , th e
10

m a in s p e a k e r s o f t h e m e e t in g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

J u s t f o r c o n te x t t h a t n a m e I a g a in g e t

fr o m a m e d i a a r t ic l e w e g o t fr o m t h e o p e n n e t w o r k w h ic h i s i n t h e
media bundle on page 12.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: D o e s h e h a v e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No he does not have to go. I just want it
on record.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h e n a m e – w h ic h n a m e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f M s – M r s R o s a li n e Zw a n e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I :
20

I k n o w h e r p h y s ic a l ly o r i n

p e r s o n a n d I k n o w th a t i n m o s t o f t h e m e e ti n g s th a t w i ll b e h e l d i n t h e
a r e a Yo u r W o r s h i p a n d t h e m u n i c i p a l m e e ti n g s s h e w o u l d b e p r e s e n t .
S o I k n o w a n d I d o b e l ie v e th a t s h e w a s p r e s e n t o n th e d a y i n q u e s t i o n
though there were a lot of people who attended the meeting.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I d o n o t k n o w if it i s g o i n g t o b e i m p o r t a n t b u t

y o u h a v e s a i d tw o t h i n g s .

Yo u s a i d y o u b e li e v e o r tr u s t t h a t h e w a s

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
there and you have said you know that she was there.

It c a n n o t b e

b o t h . It h a s g o t to b e o n e . D i d y o u s e e h e r a t t h e m e e ti n g t h e r e f o r e i f
y o u s a w h e r y o u k n o w t h a t s h e w a s t h e r e . I f y o u d id n o t s e e h e r y o u
m a y b e li e v e th a t s h e w a s t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e m a n y p e o p le w h o
w e r e t h e r e b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w. S o w h ic h o f t h e t w o is i t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

T h e r e a s o n my r e s p o n s e i s I

tr u s t o r I b e l ie v e t h a t s h e w a s p r e s e n t Yo u r W o r s h i p i t is b e c a u s e I d i d
n o t s e e h e r p h y s ic a l ly th a t s h e w a s p r e s e n t in th e m e e ti n g . I a m j u s t
b e li e v i n g o r tr u s t in g t h a t s h e w a s p a r t o f t h e m e e t in g w i t h o u t h a v i n g
10

s e e n h e r s i t t in g i n th e m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . A t – w a s – w e r e –
w e r e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s fo r t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s s e le c t e d a t a n y p o i n t i n
ti m e ?
I N T E R P R E T E R : W h e r e a r e w e n o w t h e f ir s t o r s e c o n d ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o i t is a g e n e r a l q u e s t io n . N o , n o w e r e
t h e y c h o s e n a t a n y p o i n t i n ti m e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: O n t h a t d a y t h i s w a s e x p l a i n e d
a s to – th e y e x p l a in e d t h e s h a r e s a n d h o w a r e y o u g o i n g t o b e n e f it fr o m

20

t h e w h o le t h i n g r e g a r d in g th e s h a r e s a n d t h a t th e g o v e r n m e n t w il l
p u r c h a s e c a t tl e p e r p e r s o n s o th a t o n e c a n h a v e t h e m c o n tr ib u t e d i n t o
t h e d a ir y p r o d u c t – I m e a n p r o j e c t .

W e w e r e t h e n a ls o a d v i s e d t h a t

t h o s e w h o a r e h a v in g c a t t le fo r r e d m e a t s h o u ld s e l l t h e ir c a t t le s o t h a t
t h e y c a n h a v e m o r e s h a r e s – m o n e y t o b u y o r p u r c h a s e s h a r e s i n to th e
diary project.

Page 64 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d I t h in k M s G c a b a s h e

w o u ld lik e to r e p e a t h e r q u e s t io n .

Yo u m ig h t h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d th e

q u e s t io n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Mr D h l a m in i c a n I a s k y o u t o d o t h is .

w i ll c o m e b a c k t o t h e e v i d e n c e y o u h a v e j u s t g i v e n .

I

B e c a u s e i t is

i m p o r t a n t. A t t h is p o i n t i n ti m e I s i m p ly w a n t to k n o w i f th e c o m m u n i t y
o f Vr e d e T h e m b a li h l e t o w n s h i p s e le c te d c e r t a i n p e r s o n s t o r e p r e s e n t
b e n e fic i a r i e s t o t h i s d a ir y p r o j e c t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: N o .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I d o n o t w a n t y o u to f o c u s o n th e s e c o n d
m e e ti n g . I s i m p l y a s k e d th e q u e s t io n a s a g e n e r a l q u e s t io n .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

Ye s a f te r a w h i l e y e s w e d i d

e l e c t th e r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W o u l d y o u b e a b l e t o r e c a ll r o u g h ly w h e n
that committee was selected?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

T h e c o m m i t t e e w a s s e le c t e d

a ft e r A l ta M e y e r to o k o u r ID ’s a n d s e n t th e m – o r t o o k t h e m t o P r e t o r ia
a n d I a s s u m e i t w a s n o w t h e f o u r th m e e ti n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

When I look at paragraph 16 of your

s t a te m e n t y o u m e n t io n M s M e y e r a s k in g f o r y o u r I d e n t i ty d o c u m e n ts s o
it is p a g e 5 p a r a g r a p h 1 6 .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I :

I n d e e d i t w a s Ms M e y e r a n d

t h e d a y w a s S a t u r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e it is th e c o n v e n i e n t t i m e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s i t l o o k l ik e w e m i g h t g o u p t o f iv e o ’c lo c k to d a y ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t d o e s C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f w e w a n t to c o m p le t e b o t h w i tn e s s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t w e h a v e m a d e a r r a n g e m e n t s fo r t h e m
t o c o n ti n u e t o m o r r o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f fo r a n y r e a s o n w e c a n n o t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o n c l u d e t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. W e w ill t a k e t h e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t a n d
w e w ill r e s u m e a t t w o . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s w e r e a r e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Mr D h l a m in i t h e r e a r e a c o u p l e o f t h in g s I
ju s t w a n t e d to e x p lo r e w i t h y o u . T h e f ir s t o n e – c a n I j u s t ti d y u p t h e
is s u e o f t h e b e n e fi c i a r y r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s s o t h a t is th e f ir s t o n e I w i ll g o
t o ju s t t o c o n c lu d e t h a t e v id e n c e . A f t e r t h a t I w il l a c t u a l ly j u s t t a k e y o u
b a c k t o e v id e n c e y o u h a d g i v e n e a r l i e r o n a b o u t th e c o w s t h a t y o u w e r e
g o i n g t o g e t fr o m t h e p r o j e c t .

S o i f y o u – i f y o u a l l o w m e t o t h a t is

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
w h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o d o .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Thank you.

S o m y q u e s ti o n h a d b e e n

whether

or

people

you

had

e le c te d

s e l e c te d

to

represent

the

b e n e fic i a r i e s in a l l t h in g s t o d o w i t h t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s w e

did.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Do you recall the names of those people

a n d h o w m a n y p e o p l e y o u s e l e c te d ?
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Three

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s . L i n d i w e M a s i t e n g , J u n e M a h l a b a , Ti t u s N u s e n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s a n d d i d y o u a t a n y p o i n t h a v e s i g h t o f
a B e n e fic i a r y A g r e e m e n t t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld h a v e p r e p a r e d a n d
p r e s e n t e d t o th e b e n e f ic ia r i e s ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

No.

T h e f ir s t t i m e I h a d s ig h t o f th a t d o c u m e n t i t w a s a t t h e t i m e w h e n
B u s is iw e M k h w e b a n e c a m e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o i f M r J u n e M a h la b a w e r e t o c o m e t o

t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d s a y t h a t h e s i g n e d a B e n e f ic ia r y A g r e e m e n t i n th e
20

p r e s e n c e o f o t h e r b e n e fi c i a r i e s - a n d I h o p e I a m c o r r e c t in – i n w h a t I
h a v e h e a r d h i m s a y in g - in c l u d i n g y o u r s e l f . Yo u w o u l d s a y t h a t t h a t is
in c o r r e c t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I a m – I a m s o r r y – I a m s o r r y. B e f o r e h e – h e
responds.

I th in k t h e in t e r p r e t e r d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d th e q u e s ti o n

c o r r e c t ly. Yo u m ig h t w is h to ju s t r e p e a t .

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you, thank you.
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th a n k s y o u r w o r s h i p .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

So if I say to you

t h a t M r J u n e M a h l a b a w i ll c o m e t o th is C o m m i s s i o n i f h e g e ts t h e
o p p o r t u n i ty t o t e l l t h e C o m m is s i o n t h a t h e s i g n e d a B e n e fi c i a r y
A g r e e m e n t in t h e p r e s e n c e o f o t h e r b e n e f ic i a r i e s a n d i f I a m n o t
m is t a k e n i n y o u r p r e s e n c e a s w e ll .
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):

T h a t is

n o t tr u e .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

What

p o s i ti o n

did

Mr June Mahlaba

o c c u p y i n th a t g r o u p t h a t y o u s e le c t e d t o r e p r e s e n t y o u ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):

He was

t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll y o u r w o r s h i p I a m t h e o n e w h o
selected or elected him.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I a l s o a s k t h i s q u e s t io n ? W e r e a n y o f
t h e o th e r b e n e fi c i a r i e s - t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e - a s k e d t o s ig n a
B e n e f ic ia r y A g r e e m e n t ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s Mr M a h l a b a C h a ir p e r s o n o f ?
20

MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):

He was

t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t . T h e y w a n te d to n o m i n a te o r e l e c t
u s to b e p a r t o f t h i s a s w e l l y o u r w o r s h i p b u t w e h a d a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e
w e h a d o th e r p o s i t io n s t h a t w e w e r e a lr e a d y h a n d l i n g . S o w e f e l t i t w a s
t o o m u c h f o r u s . S o r a t h e r h i m to b e t h e – I m e a n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f
t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t .

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e n t io n e d t h r e e p e o p l e a f e w m in u t e s a g o w h ic h
in c l u d e d I t h i n k is i t M r M a h la b a o r ( c o u g h i n g ) ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No, no.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s M r J u n e M a h l a b a – B- A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W a s h e a m o n g t h e th r e e p e o p le t h a t y o u

m e n ti o n e d a f e w mi n u te s a g o w h e n y o u s a i d y o u e l e c t e d t h r e e p e o p le ?
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s h e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e c o m m i t t e e t h a t w a s

m a d e o f th o s e th r e e p e o p l e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Correct

your worship.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d i d y o u c a ll t h a t c o m m i t t e e ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

We

e l e c t e d t h i s c o m m i t t e e y o u r w o r s h i p a t th e ti m e w h e n e l d e r w a s th e r e .
W e w e r e r e q u ir e d to s e le c t o r n o m i n a t e p e o p l e w h o w e r e g o i n g t o
r e p r e s e n t u s y o u r w o r s h i p i n t h is d a i r y p r o j e c t .
20

W h e n e v e r t h e r e is

s o m e a c ti v i ti e s in t h i s d a ir y p r o je c t t h e s e a r e t h e p e o p le w h o w i ll
represent us and come back and report to us.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y m ig h t n o t h a v e h a d a s p e c i fi c f o r m a l n a m e a s
a c o m m i t te e b u t t h e y r e p r e s e n t e d y o u r i n t e r e s t i n th e d a ir y p r o j e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :
w a s n o f o r m a l n a m e y o u r w o r s h ip o f th i s c o m m i t t e e .

Page 69 of 129

There

It was just a

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
c o m m i t t e e r e p r e s e n t in g o u r i n t e r e s ts w h a te v e r a c ti v i ti e s w h ic h w e r e
taking

p la c e

in

the

d a ir y

project

th e y

would

go

and

be

our

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s a n d c o m e b a c k a n d r e p o r t t o u s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t t h e d e p a r t m e n t a c c e p t e d t h a t t h is w a s
t h e c o m m i t t e e t h a t y o u h a d a c c e p t e d – t h a t y o u h a d s e le c t e d ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): I agree.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u h a v e e x p l a i n e d t h e r o le o f t h e

b e n e fic i a r y c o m m i t t e e .
10

MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):
correct your worship.

T h a t is

T h e ir r o l e w a s t o a t t e n d t h e m e e t in g s o n o u r

b e h a l f b u t t h e y a r e n o t g o in g t h e r e t o t a k e d e c i s i o n s o n o u r b e h a l f .
T h e y n e e d t o c o m e b a c k a n d c o n s u lt u s b e f o r e a d e c is io n i s t a k e n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d y o u e v e r g e t a n y r e p o r t fr o m t h a t

b e n e fic i a r y c o m m i t t e e ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): No.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D id y o u g e t a n e x p l a n a ti o n fr o m t h e

C h a ir m a n o r a n y m e m b e r o f t h e c o m m i t t e e a s t o w h y t h e y h a d n o t
r e p o r t e d o n a n y t h in g to t h e m e m b e r s h i p t h a t t h e y r e p r e s e n te d ?
20

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

No we

h a v e n e v e r r e c e iv e d a n y e x p l a n a t io n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I th e n – t h a n k y o u M r D h la m i n i - c a n I
t h e n j u s t g o b a c k a s te p to e v i d e n c e y o u w e r e g iv i n g s l i g h t ly e a r li e r ?
Yo u s p o k e o f 1 0 h e a d o f d a ir y c o w s b e i n g g iv e n to b e n e fi c i a r i e s ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): Correct.

Page 70 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d I a ls o h e a r y o u s a y th a t i t w o u l d –

t h o s e w o u ld h a v e b e e n e x c h a n g e d f o r r e d m e a t c a tt l e t h a t t h e
b e n e fic i a r y h a d o w n e d o r ig in a lly ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : N o . N o
w h a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t s a i d w a s e a c h b e n e fic ia r y w i ll g e t 1 0 c a t tl e o r
c o w s . T h e y w ill b e ta k e n t o t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t w h e r e th e mi lk in g p r o c e s s
w i ll h a p p e n .

U s w h o o w n e d t h e r e d m e a t o r th e c a t tl e w e a r e t o s e l l

t h o s e a n d b u y o th e r c a t tl e t h a t w e w il l th e n ta k e t o th e d a ir y p r o j e c t f o r
o u r s h a r e s t o i n c r e a s e b u t t h a t d id n o t h a p p e n .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B u t i t w a s n o t a c o n d i ti o n o f b e in g a

b e n e fic i a r y th a t y o u s e ll y o u r r e d m e a t c a t t le ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

No it

was not.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u c o u l d e l e c t – y o u c o u l d d e c i d e t o s e l l
y o u r c a t tl e i f y o u f e l t y o u w a n t e d to t a k e a g r e a t e r s h a r e h o ld i n g i n t h e
d a ir y p r o j e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

O k a y.

T h a t i s w h a t t h e y a c t u a l ly s u g g e s te d th a t y o u w e r e t o s e l l t h e r e d m e a t
c o w s in o r d e r fo r y o u t o g e t c o w s s o t h a t y o u c a n g e t g r e a t e r s h a r e s
20

b u t m y f e a r w a s y o u d o n o t c o u n t t h e m b e f o r e t h e y h a tc h . S o t h a t w a s
my problem.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u d o n o t c o u n t y o u r c h i c k e n s b e f o r e

t h e y h a tc h ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :
t h e y h a tc h y e s .

Page 71 of 129

B e fo r e

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I li k e t h e Z u l u e x p r e s s io n .

It is b e t t e r

t h a n th e E n g l is h C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Well the …
INTERPRETER:

T h e li t e r a l m e a n i n g is y o u d o n o t n a m e th e c h i l d

b e f o r e th e b ir t h o f th e c h i l d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Just

so

th a t

there

–

th e r e

is

no

m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g .

D o y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h o s e w h o o w n e d r e d m e a t

c a t tl e i f t h e y s o l d th e ir c a tt l e o r a n y o f th e ir c a t t le t h e y w o u l d o n ly g e t
10

m o r e s h a r e s in th e d a ir y p r o je c t if th e y b o u g h t c a t t le fo r t h e d a ir y
p r o j e c t ? In o t h e r w o r d s – in o t h e r w o r d s t h e y w o u ld n o t j u s t s e l l t h e ir
c a t tl e a n d t h e n g e t m o r e – m o r e s h a r e h o l d i n g .
T h e y w o u ld h a v e t o a d d – th e y w o u l d h a v e t o b u y d a ir y c a t tl e
a n d a d d th e m t o th e d a ir y p r o j e c t .
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):
correct your worship.

T h a t is

W h a t h a p p e n e d i s t h e G o v e r n m e n t p r o m is e d

e a c h b e n e fic ia r y 1 0 c a t tl e a n d t h e n t h o s e w h o o w n c a t tl e w i th r e d m e a t
t h e y w e r e th e n t o l d - s u g g e s te d t h a t t h e y s e ll t h e c o w s /c a tt l e t h a t
p r o d u c e r e d m e a t a n d t h e n b u y t h e c o w s t h a t p r o d u c e d a ir y a n d ta k e
20

t h e m i n to t h e p r o je c t – t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t t h e n y o u r s h a r e s w i ll b e
in c r e a s e d o r g r e a t e r s h a r e s fr o m 5 2 p e r c e n t to m o r e d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t
y o u h a v e i n v e s t e d a f te r b u y in g th e d a ir y c o w s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms I n te r p r e t e r …
I N T E R P R E T E R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k y o u r in t e r p r e ta t i o n is v e r y g o o d b u t t h e r e -

Page 72 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t h e r e is a p a r t w h ic h I t h i n k y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e g o t c o r r e c t . It is n o t
m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t h e i s s a y i n g i t w a s s u g g e s t e d t o t h e m t h a t t h e y
s h o u l d s e ll th e ir c a t t le . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t h e is s a y i n g i t w a s a n
o p t io n w h ic h th e y c o u l d …
INTERPRETER: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Use if they want to or not use.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
n o t a n o p ti o n y o u r w o r s h i p .

I t w a s n o t a n o p t io n .

It was

I t w a s s o m e t h in g

t h a t t h e y w e r e i m p o s i n g o n u s t h a t w e s h o u l d s e ll t h e r e d m e a t c o w s i n
10

o r d e r f o r u s to g e t t h e d a ir y c o w s - t h e c o w s th a t p r o d u c e d a ir y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I m u s t h a v e c o m p le t e m is u n d e r s to o d . I d o n o t
know about Ms Gcabashe but …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n I – I h a v e t h e b e n e f i t o f h a v i n g
consulted twice …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W i th t h i s w i tn e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o – s o j u s t s o t h a t I u n d e r s ta n d . In t e r m s o f

20

w h a t t h e y t o l d y o u t h a t i s n o w a s I u n d e r s t a n d Mr M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e i n
t e r m s o f w h a t h e t o ld y o u w a s i t p o s s ib l e fo r s o m e b o d y w h o h a d r e d
m e a t c a tt l e to b e c o m e a b e n e f ic ia r y i n t h e d a ir y p r o je c t w i th o u t s e l li n g
h is o r h e r c a t t le ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Ye s

your worship. We do have shares even the – we do have shares your

Page 73 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
w o r s h i p . T h o s e w h o o w n c a t tl e w h o p r o d u c e r e d m e a t y e s w e s ti ll h a v e
s h a r e s i n to t h e d a ir y p r o je c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. S o in t h e e n d t h o s e w h o h a d r e d m e a t c a t tl e

w e r e n o t c o m p e ll e d t o s e l l th e ir r e d m e a t c a t tl e in o r d e r t o h a v e s h a r e s
in t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
e x p l a i n i t l ik e th is .

Let me

W h a t M r M o ta u n g s a id h e h a d a l l o c a t e d t h e l a n d

w h ic h is o u r l a n d th e f a r m e r s la n d w h i c h is a b o u t 4 0 0 0 h e c t a r e s . H e
s a i d h e i s a c t u a ll y g iv i n g t h a t t o t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t m e a n in g t h a t t h e r e is
10

n o s p a c e a n y m o r e a v a i l a b l e f o r u s w h o a r e o w n i n g t h e c a tt l e t h a t
produces red meat.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I s t h a t w h a t M r M o ta u n g s a i d a t t h e f ir s t

m e e ti n g o r i s it y o u r i n t e r p r e t a ti o n o f w h a t w a s s a id t h a t y o u a r e te ll i n g
me?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Th o s e

a r e th e w o r d s h e u t te r e d y o u r w o r s h i p in t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g .

Those

a r e t h e w o r d s w h ic h w e r e u tt e r e d b y Mr M o t a u n g t h a t h e h a s g iv e n
a w a y t h e l a n d fo r t h e d a ir y p r o je c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Gcabashe.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

M r D h l a m in i b u t i t

is c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a n d o t h e r s m a ll f a r m e r s h a d n o t b e e n u s i n g t h e la n d
t h a t w a s a l lo c a t e d t o t h e d a ir y fa r m f o r y o u r r e d m e a t c a t tl e . Yo u t o o k
y o u r c a t tl e t o d i ffe r e n t l a n d t h a t y o u o w n e d fo r t h e m t o f in d t h e ir fe e d
e tc e t e r a .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Page 74 of 129

Just to

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t e ll y o u li k e r i g h t n o w i n t h a t la n d t h e r e is n o s p a c e fo r o u r c o w s .

I

h a v e a b o u t 1 5 c a t t le a n d a b u ll w h ic h w a s p u r c h a s e d fo r m e b y
( in d is ti n c t) a t 1 2 0 0 0 0 .

Th e r e is n o p l a c e th e r e b u t th e r e a r e c a t tl e

p e n s a n d e v e n n o w i t – it w a s i n ju r e d o n – o n t h e l e g . I t c o u l d n o t w a lk
p r o p e r ly.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So you had hoped that Government would
g iv e y o u l a n d f o r y o u r c a t tl e ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):

T h a t is

c o r r e c t . W e d i d tr y. W e m a d e e ff o r ts t o t h e p o i n t t h a t w e e v e n w e n t t o
10

L a n d R e fo r m a n d t h r o u g h t h e d a t a b a s e a n d I w a s r e a l ly s h o c k e d t o
d is c o v e r t h a t t h e p e o p le fr o m Vr e d e t h e y a r e n o t b u y i n g la n d f o r t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r D h l a m i n i p l e a s e l i s t e n v e r y c a r e fu ll y t o t h e

q u e s t io n s a n d tr y a n d a n s w e r j u s t th a t q u e s t io n th a t i s b e i n g a s k e d .
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I

understand.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. P le a s e p r o c e e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . Mr D h l a m i n i I r e a ll y
o n ly w a n t c l a r i ty o n th is o n e p o in t . 4 4 0 0 h e c ta r e s w a s p u r c h a s e d f o r
t h e d a ir y f a r m ?
20

MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through
la n d w a s a lr e a d y a v a i l a b l e .

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

The

I t w a s a w i d e fa r m e r ’s l e a s e w h ic h w a s

a lr e a d y i n e x is t e n c e o r i t w a s e x i s ti n g a l r e a d y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Yo u a r e c o r r e c t a n d w i t h a c o u p l e o f

tr a n s a c ti o n s th a t i s th e l a n d t h a t w a s i d e n t i fi e d f o r t h e Vr e d e D a ir y
Farm.

Page 75 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):

T h a t is

correct.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h il e t h a t w a s g o in g o n e v e n b e f o r e w h il e
those

commercial

farmers

were

using

that

land

the

people

of

T h e m b a li h l e w h o h a d c a t tl e h a d t o l o o k a f te r th e ir c a t tl e a n d f in d
g r a z i n g f o r t h e m w h e r e v e r th e y c o u l d ? C a n y o u ju s t s t o p t h e r e ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

w e r e g iv e n t h e l a n d . P e r f a r m I w a s g iv e n a p o r t i o n o f la n d .

We

A farmer

w o u ld s h a r e a p o r t io n o f – n o t p e r fa r m e r b u t a b o u t s e v e n fa r m e r s . F o r
10

in s t a n c e i n a p o r t io n y o u w i ll h a v e a b o u t s e v e n f a r m e r s w h o t h e ir c o w s
a r e g r a z i n g i n th a t l a n d t o a p o i n t t h a t t h e y d i d n o t e v e n l o o k a t th e f a c t
t h a t p e r c o w h o w m a n y g r a z e – i t is g r a z i n g p e r y e a r. S o a s a r e s u l t w e
w o u ld f i n d o u r s e lv e s – t h e r e is n o f o o d e n o u g h fo r t h e c o w s o r fo d d e r
enough for the cows to feed.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r D h l a m i n i I r e a l ly ju s t w a n t t o a s k y o u

t o h e l p m e s e p a r a t e is s u e s .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t is i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e I h a v e r e a d y o u r

s t a te m e n t . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r s t a t e m e n t .
20

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o I a m j u s t g o i n g t o g o s l o w ly a g a in . I

r e a l ly j u s t w a n t to c l a r i f y t h e is s u e o f t h e c o m m e r c i a l f a r m e r s w h o
o c c u p i e d t h e 4 4 0 0 h e c t a r e s o f l a n d th a t e n d e d u p b e in g p a r t o f th e
Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m P r o j e c t .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Page 76 of 129

O k a y.

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
W h a t h a p p e n e d i s Mr M o t a u n g i n f o r m e d u s t h a t t h e r e w a s a 9 9 l e a s e
p r o j e c t f o r t h e c o m m e r c i a l fa r m e r s o r w i d e f a r m e r s w h i c h I d o n o t k n o w
w h e n it a c tu a l ly t o o k p l a c e o r h a p p e n e d b u t M r M o ta u n g t o ld u s a b o u t i t
a n d h e f u r th e r in f o r m e d u s t h a t h e w a s t a k i n g t h a t la n d f o r t h e p r o j e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s .

I h a v e n o d i ffic u lt y w i t h th a t .

I

understand that evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I j u s t w a n t t o s a y a g a i n Mr D h l a m i n i I k n o w it is i n
the afternoon.

J u s t lis t e n c a r e f u l ly t o t h e q u e s t i o n a s in t e r p r e te d t o

y o u b y th e i n te r p r e t e r a n d tr y a n d j u s t a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t io n .
10

If

M s G c a b a s h e w a n ts t o a s k y o u a b o u t s o m e t h i n g e ls e s h e w i ll a s k y o u
b u t ju s t a n s w e r th a t q u e s t io n .

If you keep on not answering the

q u e s t io n a n d g iv in g e v i d e n c e a b o u t o th e r t h i n g s w e w i ll t a k e m u c h
lo n g e r t o fi n is h .
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I

understand.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I h a v e a l s o u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t
t h e m u n i c i p a li ty g a v e y o u s p e c i fi c la n d w h e r e y o u a n d o t h e r s c o u l d
k e e p y o u r c a t tl e .
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s .

I h a v e a ls o u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y th a t ,

t h a t l a n d t h a t t h e M u n i c i p a l it y a l lo c a t e d to y o u w a s n o t a p p r o p r i a te f o r
t h e c a t tl e fa r m i n g y o u a n d y o u r c o l l e a g u e s w e r e i n v o lv e d in ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e o n ly th i n g I w a s t r y i n g t o c l a r if y w a s
t h a t , w h e n t h o s e c o m m e r c i a l f a r m e r s o c c u p i e d th a t 4 4 0 0 h e c t a r e s y o u

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
o c c u p i e d a c o m p le t e d i ff e r e n t p i e c e o f la n d t h a t w a s a l l o c a t e d to y o u b y
t h e M u n i c i p a l it y.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , t h a t
is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I h a v e a ls o u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e i n
t h a t y o u h a v e s a id y o u h a v e b e e n a g i t a ti n g w i t h G o v e r n m e n t, y o u h a v e
b e e n a s k i n g G o v e r n m e n t f o r b e t te r g r a z in g l a n d f o r y o u r c a t t le ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

That is

correct.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I’ m s a t is fi e d w i th t h a t . C a n I t h e n c o m e
b a c k t o t h e l a s t p o in t t h a t m i x e s t h e s e tw o s tr a i n s o f e v i d e n c e a l i tt l e
b i t a n d t h e q u e s t i o n is , d i d a n y b o d y t h a t y o u k n o w, s e l l t h e ir c a t tl e in
t h e e x p e c t a ti o n t h a t th e y w o u ld b e a ll o c a t e d d a ir y c o w s b y th e Vr e d e
D a ir y P r o j e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s t h e r e
are.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n y o u g iv e u s , j u s t o n e o r tw o n a m e s

a n d t h e r e a s o n I a s k y o u is th is , a g a i n , M r J u n e M a h l a b a , i n h is
a ffi d a v i t h a s s ta t e d t h a t t o h is k n o w l e d g e n o b o d y s o ld t h e ir c a t t le i n t h e
20

e x p e c ta t io n t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o b e a l lo c a t e d d a ir y c o w s b y t h e
Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

P ie t

M o k w e n a h e s o l d h is c a tt l e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

H o w m a n y d i d h e s e ll , i f y o u k n o w t h e

number?

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I don’t

k n o w t h e n u m b e r b u t I k n o w fo r t h e fa c t t h a t w h e n – o n t h e d a y w h e n
M r s M k w a b e n a w a s t h e r e , t h e r e w e r e a fe w p e o p l e w h o s a id t h e y s o ld
t h e ir c a t tl e .

T h a t is w h e r e th e y w e r e th e n r e q u e s t e d t o l o o k o r m a k e

r e fe r e n c e to th e d o c u m e n ts a s t o w h e r e t h is c a t tl e w e r e s o l d a n d h o w
m u c h , s h e w i ll r e tu r n t o c o ll e c t th o s e d o c u m e n ts a n d s h e n e v e r
r e tu r n e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s b u t a t l e a s t t h a t c l a r i fi e s t h a t p o i n t,

t h e o n ly p o i n t w a s , d id a n y b o d y s e ll th e i r c a t tl e i n t h e e x p e c t a ti o n in
10

receiving others, you answered that.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Can I ask you this question as well, for

t h o s e p e o p l e – a n d th is is – w h a t w a s to l d t o y o u , I ’ d l ik e t o k n o w w h a t
e i t h e r M r Zw a n e o r Mr M o t a u n g t o ld y o u i n 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 , d i d t h e y i n d ic a te
w h e r e th e d a ir y c o w s t h a t t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s w o u l d b u y w o u l d b e k e p t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s w e

w e r e to ld th a t t h e y w o u l d b e k e p t a t t h e d a ir y, w h e r e t h e r e w i ll b e a
d a ir y p r o j e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

C a n y o u j u s t h e lp m e u n d e r s t a n d , h o w

t h a t w a s g o i n g to w o r k , i f t h e y e x p l a i n e d i t a t a l l.

So if I was a

b e n e fic i a r y a n d I h a d t e n c a t t le , I w o u l d t a k e th e m a c r o s s t o th e d a ir y
a n d I w o u l d h a v e t o g o t h e r e e v e r y d a y t o m il k t h e m o r th e d a ir y w o u l d
m il k t h e m , d i d th e y e x p l a i n t h e s e d e t a i ls t o y o u ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Okay

w h a t h a p p e n e d is , a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t th e G o v e r n m e n t w a s g o in g t o d o i s

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t o b u y th e s e t e n c o w s p e r b e n e fi c i a r y a n d t h e n t h e te n c o w s w i ll g o
s tr a ig h t t o t h e d a i r y p r o d u c t a n d t h e n w e w o u l d t h e n h a v e t o u n d e r g o
tr a i n i n g in I n d i a , t h e n i t is u p to a n i n d i v id u a l a s t o w h e t h e r, i n th e
tr a i n i n g y o u c h o o s e m i lk in g o r f e e d i n g t h e c a t tl e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s , y o u a r e m a k i n g i t c l e a r.

So my

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e is , a s a b e n e f ic i a r y t h e r e f o r e , y o u
w o u ld fi n d a n e m p l o y m e n t o p p o r tu n it y a t t h e f a r m , h a v e I g o t t h i s r i g h t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

Correct

w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o – i m m e d i a t e ly w h e n t h e d a i r y p r o j e c t s t a r t e d w e
10

w e r e s u p p o s e d t o a ll s t a r t e d w o r k in g th e r e , s o y e s i t w a s e m p l o y m e n t
in t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f c o u r s e y o u d i d n o t g e t e m p lo y m e n t a t
t h e d a ir y f a r m ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

No.

But there are those members of the

c o m m u n i ty w h o d i d g e t e m p l o y m e n t a t th e d a ir y f a r m ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

That is

c o r r e c t , th e m e m b e r s o f t h e c o m m u n i ty d i d , s o m e d i d g e t e m p l o y m e n t
but not the farmers.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h e n y o u d is ti n g u is h b e t w e e n th e f a r m e r s
a n d t h e m e m b e r s o f th e c o m m u n i ty a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t t h e fa r m e r s a r e
t h e o n e s w h o h a d c a t t le a n d t h e m e m b e r s o f th e c o m m u n i ty w h o g o t
e m p l o y m e n t w e r e p e o p l e w i t h d i ffe r e n t s k il ls ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

That is

c o r r e c t , I d o d i ffe r e n ti a t e b e t w e e n t h e f a r m e r s a s w e l l a s th e m e m b e r s

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
o f t h e c o m m u n i ty b e c a u s e o f t h e s k ill s . W e h a v e t h e s k il ls a s f a r m e r s ,
w e h a v e u n d e r g o n e w o r k s h o p s , s o w e w e r e s u p p o s e d t o w o r k in t h e
d a ir y p r o j e c t a n d i f th e r e w a s a l o t o f w o r k a n d w e n e e d e d m o r e
la b o u r e r s w e w e r e g o i n g t o h ir e o r b r i n g in p e o p l e t h a t w i ll a s s is t i n t h e
f a r m b e c a u s e w e a r e tr a i n e d a n d th e y a r e n o t tr a i n e d .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Do you know what happened to the

p r o m is e t h a t y o u w o u l d b e tr a i n e d i n I n d i a ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s I d o .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P l e a s e e x p la i n t o th e C h a ir m a n .
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

What

h a p p e n e d is Yo u r W o r s h i p , M r S e b e n z i Z w a n e , i n s t e a d o f ta k i n g t h e
f a r m e r s t o I n d ia , fo r tr a i n in g , h e t o o k h is c h o ir, M s i n g i Z a n e c h o ir t o
I n d ia fo r tr a i n i n g a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d is , t h e y d id n o t e v e n s ta y f o r lo n g
t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e y a t e c h il li s a u c e s o r w h a t e v e r t h e r e a n d t h e n t h e y
g o t s ic k , t h e y h a d r u n n i n g t u m m i e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s t h e r e a r e m e d i a r e p o r ts a n d w e h a v e
r e fe r e n c e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e w ill p r e s e n t y o u i n d u e c o u r s e , C h a ir m a n ,
ju s t to c o n f ir m s o m e o f t h e e v i d e n c e h e i s g iv i n g o n w h o w e n t a c r o s s t o
I n d ia b u t c a n w e … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e I c a n ju s t a s k a n d m a y b e it i s th e s a m e

q u e s t io n y o u a r e g o i n g t o a s k , d i d M r S a b e n z i Z w a n e h a v e a m u s ic
c h o ir b e f o r e th is d a ir y p r o j e c t w a s s ta r t e d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

That is

c o r r e c t b e c a u s e h is f a t h e r w a s a p r e a c h e r s o t h e r e a s a c h u r c h a t h is
parental home, so yes.

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k h i s f a t h e r w a s p a s t o r.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t,
h e w a s a p a s t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b e f o r e th is d a i r y p r o j e c t s t a r t e d M r S a b e n z i Z w a n e
h a d a m u s i c c h o ir t h a t h e h a d a n d a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t , th a t is t h e c h o ir
t h a t h e t o o k t o In d ia in s t e a d o f ta k i n g t h e f a r m e r s t o In d i a f o r t r a in i n g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e y o u w a n t to t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o C h a ir m a n , I t h i n k t h a t – w e ’ll ju s t g iv e
10

y o u t h e d o c u m e n ta r y e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I a s s u m e t h a t h e d i d n ’ t ta k e t h e c h o ir t o In d i a f o r
– t o h a v e t h e m t r a i n e d a s fa r m e r s ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : T h e y t o l d
u s Yo u r W o r s h ip , li k e I ’v e s a i d o u r to w n s h i p i t ’s a v e r y s m a ll t o w n s h i p
a d w e k n o w e a c h o th e r, s o t h o s e k i d s d i d i n fo r m u s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t my q u e s ti o n i s , w e r e t h e y t a k e n t o I n d i a fo r

t h e s a m e p u r p o s e fo r w h ic h t h e f a r m e r s w o u ld h a v e b e e n t a k e n th e r e ,
n a m e ly tr a i n in g a s fa r m e r ?
MR
20

EPHRAIM

MAKHOSINI

DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

A c c o r d i n g t o t h o s e k i d s , Yo u r W o r s h i p , t h e y w e r e t a k e n th e r e t o b e
tr a i n e d o n t h e d a i r y p r o je c t.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I ’d l ik e t o j u s t m o v e o n a l i t tl e b it t o y o u r
p a r a g r a p h 1 7 Mr D h l a m in i w h e r e y o u s p e a k a b o u t r e f u s in g t o g iv e o u t
( in d is ti n c t) I D , y o u r ID c o p i e s , y o u k n o w y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h a t a t

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t h e m e e ti n g . P l e a s e j u s t e x p la i n t h a t s c e n e t o th e C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, I’ m s o r r y to i n te r r u p t I k n o w t h a t a t s o m e

s t a g e e a r li e r h e w a s m o v i n g i n to t e l l m e a b o u t t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g a f te r
h a v i n g s p o k e n a b o u t th e f ir s t m e e t i n g a n d I s e e t h a t t h e p a r t t h a t y o u
a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t r e l a t e s t o , a c c o r d in g to h is s t a t e m e n t t h e th ir d
m e e ti n g . I w o n d e r w h e t h e r i t w o l d n o t b e c o n v e n i e n t t o m a k e s u r e w e
a r e d o n e w i t h t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g b u t i f , in te r ms o f t h e m e s th a t p a r t
b e l o n g s t o a th e m e t h a t fi ts m o r e w i t h w h a t w e h a v e d e a l t w i th t h a t ’s
fi n e b u t i t w o u l d h e l p m e m o r e i f w e fi n i s h w it h t h e f ir s t m e e t in g , w e g o
10

t o t h e s e c o n d m e e t i n g a n d t h e n th ir d m e e t i n g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n I b e li e v e w e a r e d o n e w i th th e
s e c o n d m e e ti n g , i f y o u v e r y q u i c k ly lo o k a t t h e p a r a g r a p h 1 2 w h e r e i t
s t a r ts , i t ’s a b o u t t h e a t te n d a n c e , 1 3 r e l a te s t o w h a t t h e y w e r e t o l d
about the cows, where the cows would stay etcetera, the 4 000
h e c ta r e s , 1 4 d e a ls w it h t h e s h a r e h o ld in g 5 2 % , 2 8 % , 2 0 % , t h a t s p li t ,
h o s p i ta ls , r o a d s … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e h a v e d e a l t w it h i t ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: We have dealt with it Chairman and then
t h e ir e x p e c t a ti o n s fo r b e tt e r f u tu r e , w e ’v e d e a lt w i t h th a t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e I c a n ju s t a s k a f e w q u e s t io n s , m a y b e I
might have missed something. Do you recall more or less when it was
t h a t y o u h a d t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g w h e r e , I b e li e v e Mr Z w a n e a d d r e s s e d
you again?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I don’t

r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l b e c a u s e i t w a s l ik e – e v e r y t h i n g w a s h a p p e n i n g i n

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
a h u r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e f ir s t m e e ti n g w a s i n 2 0 1 2 , I t a k e i t t h a t t h e

s e c o n d m e e ti n g w a s a l s o i n 2 0 1 2 ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Ja it

w a s v e r y c lo s e , it w a s n o t l o n g a f te r t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d w a s i t h e l d a t t h e s a m e v e n u e a s t h e fi r s t

m e e ti n g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s i t e s s e n ti a l ly th e s a m e p e o p l e w h o a t t e n d e d
10

e v e n i f i t’s n o t r e a ll y e v e r y b o d y ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

That is

correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

Can I then just

c o n fir m t h a t t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g w o u l d a ls o h a v e t a k e n p l a c e i n 2 0 1 2 ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : T h o u g h I
d o n ’t r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l, b u t th e th ir d m e e ti n g it w a s a m e e ti n g w h e r e
t h e y r e q u e s t o f ta k i n g o u r ID ’s .
CHAIRPERSON: And it was not long after the second meeting that you
20

h a d th e t h ir d m e e t i n g , is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It was

a ft e r a f e w m o n th s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o I h a d a s k e d y o u j u s t t o e x p la i n t o th e
C h a ir m a n w h a t y o u r v i e w w a s o n th a t d a y w i th r e s p e c t to t h e p h y s i c a l

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
I D c o p ie s t h a t w e r e b e i n g r e q u e s t e d fr o m y o u .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

What

h a p p e n e d i s , i t w a s a Fr id a y, w e w e r e r e q u e s te d t o b r i n g o u r I D ’s a n d
t h e n o n a S a t u r d a y th e r e w a s a m e e t in g a t t h e t o w n h a ll , b e f o r e t h e
m e e ti n g s t a r t e d , I m e t w i t h t h e fa r m e r s w e h a d a c a u c u s m e e ti n g
r e q u e s t in g th e m n o t t o g iv e th e I D ’s … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u w e r e r e q u e s t in g t h e m n o t t o h a n d u p
t h e ir ID ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t,
10

t h e r e a s o n w h y I r e q u e s t e d th e m n o t t o h a n d o v e r t h e ir I D ’s i t i s
b e c a u s e I ’v e a lr e a d y h e a r d t h a t th e f a r m s w e r e r e le a s e d a n d P r e t o r ia is
r e q u e s t in g th e i d e n t i ty d o c u m e n t o f t h e b e n e f ic i a r i e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t G o v e r n m e n t f u n d s
here?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

That is

correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y le t m e j u s t c h e c k , w h a t y o u h a d h e a r d w a s i t

t h a t th e G o v e r n m e n t in P r e t o r ia w a n t e d th e l is t – w a n t e d a l is t o f
b e n e fic i a r i e s o r is w h a t y o u h e a r d th a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t in P r e t o r i a
20

w a n t e d t h e I D ’s o f t h e b e n e fi c i a r ie s ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : I w a s in
a m e e ti n g i n B e th l e h e m , n e i g h b o u r m e e t in g , I h e a r d th a t t h e r e w a s
s o m e i n f i g h t in g a b o u t t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t a n d w h o a r e th e b e n e f ic i a r ie s
t h e r e b e c a u s e th e G o v e r n m e n t f u n d s h a d b e e n r e l e a s e d o r o u t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, is w h a t y o u h a d h e a r d t h e r e f o r e , t h a t t h e

Page 85 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
G o v e r n m e n t in Pr e t o r i a w a n te d a l is t o f t h e n a m e s o f th e b e n e f ic ia r i e s
o r is w h a t y o u h a d h e a r d t h a t th e G o v e r n m e n t i n Pr e to r i a w a n t e d t h e
I D ’s – I D b o o k s o f t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s , o r b o t h ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

What

I’ d li k e to e x p l a i n is t h a t t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s w e r e e l e c t e d a ft e r – o r t h e y
w e r e t a k e n a f t e r t h e m o n e y o r t h e f u n d s h a d b e e n r e l e a s e d , t h a t ’s w h a t
I want to explain.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o M r D h l a m i n i , I ’ m a s k i n g y o u a g a i n , p l e a s e ju s t

lis t e n t o t h e q u e s ti o n a n d a n s w e r t h a t q u e s ti o n a n d o t h e r is s u e s th a t
10

y o u m i g h t w is h t o t e ll m e w h ic h y o u h a v e in c l u d e d i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t
t h a t M s G c a b a s h e k n o w s a b o u t , s h e w il l a s k y o u a b o u t t h o s e i s s u e s i n
d u e c o u r s e . O k a y, e a r li e r o n y o u s a i d y o u h a d a c a u c u s m e e ti n g w i t h
y o u r m e m b e r s is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR

EPHRAIM

MAKHOSINI

DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a id t h a t y o u t o l d t h e m t h a t th e y s h o u l d n o t
h a n d u p th e ir I D b o o k s , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d y o u s a i d th a t y o u h a d h e a r d s o m e t h in g a n d I

t h o u g h t t h a t y o u s a i d t h a t y o u h e a r d t h a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t i n Pr e t o r i a
w a n t e d a li s t o f t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s b u t t h e i n t e r p r e t e r s e e m s to h a v e
s a i d , y o u s a i d y o u h e a r d t h a t t h e G o v e r n m e n t in P r e to r i a w a n t e d t h e I D
b o o k s , s o t h a t is w h y I w a s a s k i n g y o u t o c la r i fy w h a t y o u h e a r d .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : T h e l is tthe

names

of

the

b e n e fi c i a r i e s ,

th e

lis t

Page 86 of 129

of

th e

names

of

the

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
b e n e fic i a r i e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay

t h a t’s w h a t y o u

had heard, namely

th e

G o v e r n m e n t in P r e t o r i a w a n t e d t h e n a m e s o f t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay thank you.

I f y o u h a d to l d m e t h a t, w h a t f iv e

m i n u t e s a g o , w e w o u ld h a v e c o v e r e d a l o t m o r e g r o u n d n o w.
MR

EPHRAIM

MAKHOSINI

DHLAMINI

( t hr o u g h

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I

a p o lo g i s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M r D h l a m in i I k n o w t h e t i m e is i m p o r ta n t
b u t w e ’ ll a c t u a l ly g o t h r o u g h a l l o f y o u r e v id e n c e , I th i n k t h a t t h e
C h a ir m a n w il l a ll o w u s t o d o th a t .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o th e p u r p o s e fo r – c a n I r e p h r a s e th a t ,
s o c a n y o u e x p l a in t o th e C h a ir m a n w h a t y o u t h e n d e c id e d to d o , d id
y o u p r e s e n t y o u r I D n u m b e r s o t h a t y o u r n a m e c o u l d b e p u t o n t h e li s t,
d i d t h e o t h e r m e m b e r s o f t h e c o m m u n i ty d o t h e s a m e o r w h a t
happened?
I N T E R P R E T E R : S o d o y o u m e a n , d i d th e y p r o v i d e t h e I D n u m b e r s .

20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o t h a t th o s e ID n u m b e r s a n d n a m e s

c o u l d b e e n t e r e d o n t h e lis t t h a t w a s g o i n g t o g o t o P r e t o r i a o r d i d h e
c o n ti n u e t o s a y, d o n ’ t d o i t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

What

h a p p e n e d i s , a f t e r t h e c a u c u s Yo u r W o r s h i p , I n o t ic e d t h a t th e y d i d n o t
t a k e m y a d v i c e o r w h a t e v e r I w a s s a y in g t o t h e m s o w h e n w e w e n t b a c k

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t h e n t h e y w e r e g iv in g o u t t h e ir – t h e y g a v e u p t h e – j a t h e y ’v e g iv e n
t h e m t h e ir I D c o p i e s , s o t h e y w e r e m a k i n g c o p ie s o f t h e I D ’s n o w. S o
y e s , w e t h e n h a n d e d o v e r th e I D ’s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

And you joined the group that was

p e r m it t in g o ffic i a ls t o m a k e c o p ie s o f t h e ir I D d o c u m e n ts ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

That is

correct.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u r m e m b e r s r e je c t t h e i d e a o f n o t g iv i n g t h e ir

I D b o o k s o r – a t t h e c a u c u s m e e t in g ?
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Nobody

r e s p o n d e d e x a c t ly i t w a s j u s t s o m e th i n g e l s e , n o b o d y r e s p o n d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, b u t w h e n y o u w e n t t o t h e m e e ti n g t h e n t h e y
g a v e t h e ir I D b o o k s f o r – t o b e c o p i e d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

That is

correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u d id t h e s a m e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

I th e n

f o ll o w e d s u it e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e o ffi c ia l w h o w a s c o o r d in a ti n g th is
w a s Ms A l ta M e y e r ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M s i t is a f e m a l e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: M s – Ms A l t a M e y e r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M s M e y e r a l s o a s k e d y o u to s ig n c e r t a in

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
f o r m s , is th is c o r r e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

N o n o t o n t h a t d a y th e y o n l y

t o o k t h e I D ’s o n ly.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h e n d id s h e a s k y o u t o s ig n f o r m s a n d a t
t h e s a m e ti m e t e l l y o u a b o u t th e r u l e s o f t h e p r o je c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: S e c o n d m e e ti n g M s Al t a M e y e r
w a s th e r e .

It w a s o n th a t m e e ti n g w h e r e w e a ls o e l e c te d t h e

committee.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y le t u s j u s t g e t t h i s c le a r. Yo u s e e i t is i m p o r ta n t
10

t o g iv e m e a c l e a r p ic t u r e a s t o w h a t h a p p e n e d i n a p a r t ic u l a r m e e ti n g
a n d w e c l o s e t h a t o ff a n d m o v e o n t o s o m e t h i n g e ls e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e a s k a f e w q u e s ti o n s .
1.

W h o c a ll e d t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g ?

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

K h o l iz a , T h u to , th e y a r e th e

o n e s w h o n o ti fi e d u s a b o u t th is m e e ti n g . A l ta M e y e r w a s c o m i n g t o th a t
m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o p l e a s e ju s t r e p e a t t h e tw o n a m e s o f t h e p e o p l e

w h o c a l l e d t h e m e e ti n g ?
20

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h u t o g a n y e , K h o li z a S i b e k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w e r e th e y i n t h e w h o l e s c h e m e o f t h i n g s ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

Th e y w e r e h ir e d b y M r

M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e w h e n h e c a m e i n a s a M E C . H e s a i d h e is e m p l o y in g
t h e m t o b e h is e y e s a n d e a r s e x a c tly t h e ir jo b d e s c r ip t io n Yo u r W o r s h ip
I w o u ld n o t b e a b l e – I m e a n C h a ir p e r s o n I w o u ld n o t b e a b l e t o te ll y o u

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
b u t h e s a i d th e y w e r e th e r e t o b e h is e y e s a n d e a r s in t h e m e e ti n g in
h is a b s e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

So

th e y

were

government

o ffic i a ls

fr o m

th e

D e p a r t m e n t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

I heard that they were

c o n tr a c te d o r t h e y h a d a c o n tr a c t i n th e g o v e r n m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w y o u t o l d u s w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g th a t
w h a t w a s w r i tt e n in t h e a r ti c l e t h a t M s G c a b a s h e r e a d w a s t r u e n a m e ly
t h a t t h e w a y th e f ir s t m e e t i n g w a s c a ll e d w a s b y w a y o f p e o p l e w h o
10

w e n t a r o u n d w it h I th in k l o u d - h a l e r s s a y i n g t h e r e w o u l d b e a m e e t in g .
Is t h a t h o w th e t h ir d m e e t i n g w a s a ls o c a l l e d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

F o r th e th ir d m e e t i n g Yo u r

W o r s h i p t h e r e w a s a l o u d - h a l e r a n d s o m e o f u s w e r e c a ll e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d a t t h e m e e ti n g , t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g w a s i t M s
M e y e r – w a s i t o n l y Ms M e y e r w h o w a s t h e s p e a k e r ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I f I r e m e m b e r w e l l i t w a s D u m e
K o b e n e . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u n o w s a y in g M s M e y e r w a s o n e o f th e

s p e a k e r s b u t th e r e w a s a n o t h e r s p e a k e r M s K o b e n e is th a t w h a t y o u
20

are saying?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h is t h ir d m e e ti n g w a s it c a l le d a s a f o ll o w - u p

m e e ti n g i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e d a i r y p r o je c t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I a m c o n fu s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h is m e e t in g w a s c a l l e d a s a m e e ti n g r e la t in g

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t o t h e d a i r y p r o je c t?
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th e t h ir d m e e t i n g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e th ir d m e e t i n g .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

I t w a s – i t w a s a m e e t in g .

T h e r e w a s n o t h in g t o b e d i s c u s s e d th e r e b u t t o t a k e t h e I D ’s s o th a t
t h e y w ill b e t a k e n t o – o r h a n d o v e r t h e ir I D ’s s o t h a t t h e y c a n b e t a k e n
t o P r e to r i a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is a ll .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I a m g o i n g t o t a k e
y o u b a c k to y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 7 a n d t h e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e o f t h a t
paragraph reads as follows:
“ T h e f a r m e r s d i d n o t h e e d to m y a d v i c e a n d w e w e n t
a h e a d t o p r o v i d e o u r d e t a i ls i n c lu d in g c o p i e s o f o u r
I d e n ti ty d o c u m e n t s to M s M e y e r w h o a s k e d u s to s i g n
c e r t a i n fo r ms a n d w h o t o l d u s a b o u t t h e r u l e s o f t h e
project.”
M y q u e s ti o n is , I u n d e r s t a n d th a t th is h a p p e n e d a n u m b e r o f y e a r s

20

back.

J u s t f o r th e C h a ir m a n t o h a v e a n i d e a a s to w h e n th e s e

d o c u m e n ts o r t h e s e fo r m s w e r e s i g n e d a n d w h e n y o u w e r e t o l d a b o u t
t h e r u le s o f t h e p r o j e c t in t h e s t a te m e n t y o u lo c a t e th a t in t h e th ir d
m e e ti n g b u t p l e a s e M r D h la m i n i y o u a r e a t li b e r ty to s a y C h a ir m a n y o u
w i ll e x c u s e m e I a c tu a l ly t h in k t h is is w h e n th is t h i n g h a p p e n e d .

So

p l e a s e j u s t e x p l a in t o t h e C h a ir m a n i f th i s is c o r r e c t r e c o r d o r i f y o u

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t h i n k th is r e c o r d h e r e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 is i n c o r r e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I t w a s A l t a M e y e r w h o w a s j u s t
t a k i n g t h e I D c o p i e s a n d t h e n o n ly g a v e u s j u s t a fe w r u l e s o f w h a t
s h o u l d h a p p e n i n t h e d a ir y p r o je c t . N o t h i n g h e c t ic li k e d o n o t t a k e o u t
t h e a s s e ts t h a t b e lo n g s i n t o th e d a ir y p r o j e c t lik e g a r d e n s p a d e n o r
[i n d is t in c t] s h o u l d b e ta k e n o u t o f t h e d a i r y p r o j e c t o r t h e c o w s t a k e n
out.

S o b a s i c a ll y t h o s e w e r e t h e r u l e s – s m a ll r u l e s t h a t s h e w a s

g iv i n g u s , j u s t m in o r. N o t t a k i n g o u t a f o d d e r o r g r a z in g f o o d . I t w a s
ju s t a b o u t t h e ID ’s o n ly.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t e x p la in s w h a t y o u m a y h a v e r e f e r r e d
t o h e r e a s t h e r u le s o f t h e p r o j e c t . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI: The rules of the project came
u p i n t h e f o u r th m e e ti n g .

I f I u n d e r s t a n d v e r y w e l l h e r e i t w a s o n ly

a b o u t t h e t a k i n g o r h a n d i n g o v e r o f th e I D ’s o n ly.

A f t e r t h a t t h ir d

m e e ti n g t h e n s h e c a m e to t h e f o u r th m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u t e ll u s a b o u t t h e f o u r th m e e t in g . W h a t M s
G c a b a s h e w a s tr y in g t o e s t a b l is h fr o m y o u w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e l a s t
s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 1 7 is t h i s .

W h a t Ms G c a b a s h e w a s tr y in g t o

e s t a b li s h fr o m y o u i n r e g a r d t o t h e l a s t s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 1 7 i s t h e
20

f o ll o w i n g :

D i d s h e t e l l y o u th a t is M s M e y e r a b o u t t h e r u l e s o f th e

p r o j e c t a t t h e t h i r d m e e ti n g o r is th e p o s i ti o n t h a t s h e d i d n o t t e l l y o u
a b o u t t h e r u l e s o f t h e p r o je c t a t th a t m e e ti n g . S h e t o l d y o u a b o u t th e
r u l e s o f th e p r o j e c t a t a n o t h e r m e e ti n g o r i s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r a t w h i c h m e e ti n g s h e t o ld y o u a b o u t t h e r u le s o f th e
project?

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI:

I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w e l l Yo u r

W o r s h i p a s t o w h e th e r s h e i n f o r m e d u s a b o u t t h e r u l e s o f t h e p r o je c t i n
t h e t h ir d m e e ti n g , t h e m e e t i n g w h e r e t h e I D ’s w e r e t a k e n o r w e r e
h a n d e d o v e r o r w h e n e x a c t ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u M r D h la m i n i.

T h e n t h e la s t th i n g t o c l e a r u p i s ju s t th e m a t t e r o f t h o s e c e r ta i n fo r ms
t h a t w e – y o u t a l k a b o u t i n t h e s a m e s e n te n c e . C a n y o u j u s t a s s is t w i th
that?
10

D i d y o u o r d i d y o u n o t s i g n c e r t a i n fo r m s a t th e ti m e t h a t y o u

w e r e h a n d i n g u p y o u r ID d o c u m e n t s ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

I f I r e m e m b e r w e ll I t h i n k t h e

w o r d d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e s i g n e d t h e r e a r e f o r m s t h a t w e s ig n e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W o u l d t h i s h a v e b e e n a t th e t i m e t h a t y o u
w e r e h a n d i n g i n y o u r I D ’s fo r c o p ie s t o b e m a d e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I t i s a l o n g t i m e a g o . I – i t i s
– i t h a p p e n e d lo n g t i m e a g o I d o n o t r e m e m b e r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t is fi n e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e M r

N c o n g w a n e w h o m i g h t r e m e m b e r s o m e o f t h e d e t a il s . S o I d o n o t t h i n k
y o u s h o u l d w o r r y t o o m u c h a b o u t it M r D h l a m in i , y o u a r e d o in g y o u r
20

b e s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e j u s t t o p u t y o u a t e a s e i t m a y b e th a t i n
t h e e n d it d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h e t h e r i t w a s i n t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g o r fir s t
m e e ti n g w h a t is i m p o r t a n t is w e r e t h e r e f o r ms th a t y o u s i g n e d a n d w h a t
t h o s e f o r m s w e r e ? S o d o n o t w o r r y m u c h a b o u t t h a t.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I a c tu a ll y m o v e o n t o t h e I m b i z o t h a t
took place at Frankfort.

P l e a s e j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir m a n w h a t t h a t w a s

a b o u t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

T h e r e w a s a n I m b iz o a t

Fr a n k fo r t M r Z o k w a n a w a s t h e r e a n d L e s e d i F M w a s t h e r e a s w e ll .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W o u ld y o u r e m e m b e r r o u g h ly w h e n t h a t

w o u ld h a v e b e e n ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

I do not remember the day

e x a c tl y b u t I r e m e m b e r th a t I w a n t e d t o r a is e t h is is s u e o f d a ir y Vr e d e
10

o n e o f t h e p e o p le w h o w a n t e d t o r a is e t h e is s u e o f t h e d a ir y – I m e a n
d a ir y p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o c a l le d th e I m b i z o ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

W e w e r e to l d th a t th e r e is a

g o v e r n m e n t I m b i z o A g r ic u l t u r a l d e p a r t m e n t I m b i z o .

T h e p e o p le t h a t I

s a w t h e r e w a s M r Zo k w a n a a n d T h e b e t h e a n d o t h e r p e o p le w e r e i n th e
o th e r – a s s o c i a ti o n w i th u s fr o m Q w a q w a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o n t in u e w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t m e e t in g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:
c o m p la i n t s . I r a is e d m y h a n d .
20

W e r a is e d s o m e is s u e s o r

I d id g e t t h e o p p o r tu n i t y t o s p e a k o u t

a b o u t t h e d a i r y p r o j e c t Vr e d e d a i r y p r o j e c t.
I N T E R P R E T E R : Yo u r W o r s h ip [ in d i s ti n c t ] c la r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

I raised an issue about the

d a ir y p r o je c t w h ic h is a t Vr e d e a n d t h a t t h e y a r e n o w I n d i a n s p e o p l e
t h e r e , t h e G u p ta ’s w h o – I c o u l d h e a r t h a t t h e y w e r e t a lk i n g b u t t h e

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
la n g u a g e I c o u l d n o t g e t i t c le a r ly a s t o w h a t l a n g u a g e w a s t h is
b e c a u s e I c o u l d p ic k it u p t h a t t h e y a r e n o t c o n v e r s a n t i n E n g l is h o r
t h e ir E n g l is h w a s n o t – I c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d i t . As w e l l a s th e y c o u l d
n o t e v e n s p e a k S e s o th o .

I had a problem with the language of the

G u p t a ’s w h a t e x a c tly t h e y w e r e s a y in g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I j u s t g e t c l a r i ty o n th is ? B e c a u s e I
a m r e a d i n g t h e s t a te m e n t a s y o u a r e t a l k in g .

In th e s ta t e m e n t y o u

r e fe r t o M a G u p t a b u t a r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t k n o w i n g th a t t h e s e p e o p l e
w e r e m e m b e r s o f th e G u p t a f a m il y o r a r e y o u s i m p ly r e f e r r in g t o t h e m
10

a s a c la s s o f p e o p l e w h o w o u l d b e I n d i a n a n d t h a t i s – I ju s t w a n t
c la r i ty – a n d t h a t is w h y y o u u s e d t h e t e r m M a G u p t a ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I : W e w o u ld s e e th e m t h e r e . W e
w e r e a lr e a d y i n fo r m e d t h a t t h e y a r e a – th e G u p t a fa m i ly w h o a r e
w o r k i n g i n th e d a ir y p r o j e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Who had informed you that you had

m e m b e r s o f th e G u p t a fa m i ly w o r k i n g a t th e d a i r y p r o je c t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: W e – th e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o a r e
w o r k i n g i n t h e d a i r y p r o je c t w h o a r e l iv i n g w i t h u s in t h e s a m e t o w n s h ip
a n d s o m e w e a r e r e l a t e d t o . T h e y a r e th e o n e s w h o i n f o r m e d u s t h a t
20

t h e r e i s a G u p ta f a m ily t h a t is w o r k i n g i n t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s c o n ti n u e . W h a t d id y o u t h e n s a y a t
t h e I m b iz o ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

I r a is e d th e is s u e t h a t o u r

id e n t i ty d o c u m e n ts w e r e u s e d t o g e t th e d a ir y p r o j e c t r u n n i n g a n d w e
h a v e n o t r e c e i v e d a n y p r o c e e d s . I t i s f u n c t io n i n g f u lly b u t w e h a v e n o t

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
r e c e i v e d a n y p r o c e e d s t h e r e fo r e I w a s r e q u e s t in g M r Z o k w a n a t o h e l p
u s , Zo k w a n a t o h e lp u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d Mr Z o k w a n a w a s M i n is t e r o f A g r ic u l t u r e F o r e s tr y
a n d Fi s h e r ie s . Is t h a t t h e o n e y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t w a s M i n is t e r Z o k w a n a ’s r e s p o n s e t o
you?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: H e s a i d I u s e d w r o n g n a m e s o r
I r e fe r r e d t o t h e s e p e o p l e w i t h – li k e w i t h w r o n g n a m e s th e n Mr
10

T h a b e th e th e n s a i d h e w i ll i n t e r v e n e a n d s o r t t h is th in g o u t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d M r T h a b e th e i n f a c t r e s o lv e t h e

d i ff ic u l ty y o u w e r e p l a c i n g b e f o r e t h e M i n is t e r a t th a t I m b i z o ?
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th e s u r n a m e is ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thabethe.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: N o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Can we…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t – I a m s o r r y. W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f
w h a t Mr Zo k w a n a w a s r e f e r r in g t o t h a t h e s e e m s t o h a v e f o u n d
o b j e c ti o n a b l e i n t h e w o r d s t h a t y o u h a d u s e d ?
20

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I : H e d i d n o t w a n t m e t o r e fe r to
t h e s e p e o p l e a s G u p t a ’s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t w h a t Mr T h a b e t h e s a i d h e w o u l d s o r t o u t o r
d i d M R T h a b e th e s a y h e w a s g o i n g to r e s o l v e th e d i ffic u lt i e s t h a t y o u
had raised with Mr Zokwana?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

M r T h a b e th e w a s s a y i n g h e

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
w a s g o i n g to r e s o l v e t h e is s u e o f t h e d a ir y Vr e d e p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t a g a i n I k n o w y o u s a i d i t a b o u t tw o mi n u te s a g o .
W h a t e x a c tly w a s t h e p r o b l e m t h a t y o u to l d M r Z o k w a n a a b o u t
r e g a r d in g th e Vr e d e d a ir y p r o j e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

I w a s t e l li n g h i m a b o u t t h e

d a ir y p r o j e c t , Vr e d e d a ir y p r o j e c t . O u r n a m e s w e r e t a k e n . F u n d s w e r e
r e l e a s e d fr o m t h e g o v e r n m e n t . Th e d a ir y p r o j e c t i s f u n c ti o n a l a n d w e
a r e n o t g e tt i n g a n y m o n e y fr o m i t . T h e p r o m is e s th a t w e r e m a d e t h a t
w e w il l b e t a k e n t o I n d i a f o r tr a i n in g i t d i d n o t h a p p e n . Th is m e a n s t h a t
10

there is some
I N T E R P R E T E R : Yo u r W o r s h ip I a m n o t s u r e i f th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C r i m in a l a c t iv it y.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

C r i m i n a l a c tiv i ty y e s c r i m i n a l

a c ti v i ty is g o in g o n a n d y e t o u r I D c o p ie s w e r e u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d s o is – i s t h a t w h a t Mr T h a b e t h e s a i d h e w a s
g o i n g t o r e s o lv e th e n ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Now I know that you said you cannot remember

a r o u n d a b o u t w h e n th e I m b i z o w a s h e ld b u t i f y o u t h i n k b a c k a t t h e ti m e
20

w h e n th e t h ir d m e e ti n g w a s h e l d a n d y o u lo o k a t th e ti m e w h e n I m b iz o
w a s h e l d a b o u t h o w m u c h ti m e w o u l d y o u s a y l a p s e d b e t w e e n I m b iz o
b e t w e e n th e t i m e th a t t h e t h i r d m e e ti n g h a d h a p p e n e d b e fo r e th e
I m b iz o w a s h e l d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I:
in d e e d .

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A long time – a long time

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
CHAIRPERSON: More than a year?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

I assume it was more than a

y e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M r D h la m i n i a t th is I m b iz o y o u h e a r d

M i n is t e r S e n z e n i Z o k w a n a ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e r e th e r e a n y o t h e r m e m b e r s o f

P a r li a m e n t o r m e m b e r s o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l L e g is la t u r e i n a t t e n d a n c e ?
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

F r o m P a r li a m e n t I s a w M r

S e n z e n i Z o k w a n a . A n d t h e n M r T h e b e t h e I s a w h i m f r o m B l o e m f o n te in .
T h e r e w e r e o t h e r s t h o u g h I d id n o t k n o w t h e ir n a m e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e – M r Th e b e t h e t h a t a t te n d e d th a t m e e t in g

t h a t y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t is it t h e o n e w h o w a s th e H e a d o f t h e Pr o v in c i a l
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e in t h e Fr e e S t a t e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d Mr S e n z e n i Z o k w a n a d i d n o t a t t e n d th e I m b iz o ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: N o .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o y o u a r e n o t a b le t o id e n ti fy th e o t h e r
V I P ’s o r t h e o t h e r o ffi c i a l s w h o w e r e a t t h e I m b i z o ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I w o u ld n o t b e a b l e t o i d e n ti f y
t h e m b u t th e r e w a s a l s o L e s e d i F M b u t t h e o t h e r s I w o u l d n o t b e a b l e to
– b e i n a p o s it i o n t o i d e n ti fy t h e m .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : L e t u s m o v e o n t o t h e f o u r th m e e t in g w h ic h

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
was convened you say in or about 2014. Who was in attendance at that
m e e ti n g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h e f if t h m e e t i n g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e fo u r t h m e e t in g .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: A lt a M e y e r, M u n ic ip a l o ff ic ia ls
o r e m p lo y e e s , c o u n c il l o r s , t h a t i s w h e r e w e e v e n n o m i n a te d o r e l e c t e d
the committee.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s w h a t – w h a t e ls e h a p p e n e d a t t h a t

m e e ti n g ?
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It was

w h e r e M s Al t a M e y e r w a n t t o ta k e q u e s ti o n s o r d i d n o t w a n t t o r e s p o n d
t o t h e q u e s ti o n s b e c a u s e p e o p l e w a n t t o a s k h e r q u e s t i o n s . I t i s w h e r e
w e e l e c t e d th e c o m m i t t e e b u t s h e d i d n o t w a n t t o a c c e p t q u e s ti o n s
w h e n p e o p l e w a n te d to a s k h e r q u e s ti o n s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h o d id s h e s a y h a d a s k e d h e r t o c o m e

a n d s e e y o u in Vr e d e ?
I N T E R P R E T E R : C a n I g e t t h e q u e s ti o n a g a i n ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h o m d i d s h e s a y r e q u e s t e d h e r t o v is i t

Vr e d e ?
20

MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

A c c o r d i n g t o h e r s h e s a i d i t w a s M r Ac e M a g a s h u l e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w h y w a s s h e i n Vr e d e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

What I

n o t e d w a s t h e e l e c ti o n o f t h e c o m m i t t e e . S h e fu r t h e r in f o r m e d u s a b o u t
t h e c h a n g e s th a t w e r e to t a k e p la c e i n t h e d a i r y p r o j e c t .

Page 99 of 129

That the

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
A g r ic u l t u r e D e p a r t m e n t a s w e ll a s th e M u n ic i p a li ty h a d b e e n n o w
r e m o v e d f r o m t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t . F D C i s g o in g to t a k e o v e r.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So your understanding had all along been
t h a t t h e o p e r a ti o n s o r w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a t t h e Vr e d e D a i r y F a r m
in v o lv e d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d th e M u n i c i p a li t y ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):

T h a t is

correct.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE

SC:

And

the

Free

State

Development

C o r p o r a ti o n w a s a c o m p l e t e ly s e p a r a t e e n t it y ?
10

MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):
correct.

Th e y w e r e a s e p a r a t e e n ti t y.

T h a t is

T h e fi r s t t i m e w e h e a r d a b o u t

t h e m it w a s o n t h a t d a y a n d w e h a d p e o p le t a lk i n g a b o u t i t d u r i n g t h e
week.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE
C o r p o r a ti o n
August 2014.

to o k

over

SC:

Now

th e

running

the
of

Fr e e
E s ti n a

State

Development

s o m e ti m e

around

T h a t m e a n s th a t th is m e e t in g w o u ld h a v e ta k e n p l a c e

ju s t a l it t le b e fo r e t h a t .
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI
h a p p e n e d s o fa s t .
20

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It

I d o n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y a s to w h e th e r i t w a s a

w e e k a f te r t h a t m e e t in g th a t th e y h a v e t a k e n o v e r – t h e FD C h a v e
t a k e n o v e r th e p r o j e c t b u t i t w a s s h o r tl y – i t h a p p e n e d s h o r tl y a w e e k
o r a w e e k a f t e r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O h s o y o u a c t u a ll y g o t t o – t o fi n d o u t o r
t o k n o w th a t t h e FD C h a d t a k e n o v e r th e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .

Page 100 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h o to ld … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. I t h i n k t h e i n t e r p r e te r m ig h t
n o t h a v e u n d e r s to o d y o u r q u e s ti o n .

I t h i n k Ms G c a b a s h e w a n t e d to

e s t a b li s h fr o m y o u w h e t h e r y o u a r e s a y i n g a t t h e t i m e o f t h is m e e ti n g
w h a t y o u l e a r n t w a s t h a t t h e FD C h a d a lr e a d y ta k e n o v e r n o t t h a t i t w a s
g o i n g t o t a k e o v e r u l ti m a t e l y. O k a y. I w il l p u t t h e q u e s t i o n .
A t th is m e e t i n g w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t t h e F D C h a d
a lr e a d y t a k e n o v e r a s o p p o s e d t o i t w ill s t il l – i t w i ll ta k e o v e r
u l ti m a t e ly.
10

I N T E R P R E T E R : Th e f o u r t h m e e ti n g n o w y o u r w o r s h ip .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t e v e r m e e ti n g t h e y w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It was

a b o u t t o . I t is n o t l ik e t h e y h a v e a l r e a d y t a k e n o v e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

Ja.

H e r q u e s t io n w a s a b o u t I th i n k

w h e t h e r b e fo r e it h a d – b e f o r e t h e m e e t in g i t h a d a lr e a d y d o n e s o .
T h a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g a t l e a s t o f t h e m e e ti n g – o f t h e q u e s ti o n b u t
a t l e a s t y o u a r e c l a r i fy i n g t h a t it w a s s ti ll t o t a k e o v e r.
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter):

T h a t is

c o r r e c t y o u r w o r s h i p s ti ll to t a k e o v e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e t e n s e c a n m a k e a b i g d i ffe r e n c e i n m e a n i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: But soon thereafter and I was suggesting
t o y o u t h a t i n o r a b o u t A u g u s t t h e F D C d i d t a k e o v e r t h e f a r m . S o my
q u e s t io n t o y o u w a s d id y o u f i n d o u t t h a t i n f a c t t h e F D C h a d n o w t a k e n
o v e r th e fa r m ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Page 101 of 129

What

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
h a p p e n e d is

after

th is

m e e ti n g t h e n

in d e e d

th e s e p e o p l e w e r e

p r e s e n t e d to u s . W e s a w th e m . W e w e r e t o l d t h a t t h e s e a r e t h e p e o p l e
w h o a r e n o w r u n n i n g t h e p r o j e c t . T h a t is w h e n I s a i d to t h e m y o u a r e
n o t g o i n g to n o m i n a t e o t h e r b e n e fi c i a r i e s .

W e a r e t h e r e a lr e a d y a s

b e n e fic i a r i e s t h a t a r e a lr e a d y e x is t in g f o r t h is p r o je c t . S o w e m e t th o s e
people. We saw those people.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. M s G c a b a s h e I t h i n k I m a y h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t

t h e i n te r p r e t e r m is u n d e r s t o o d t h e q u e s t i o n b u t s h e – s h e m i g h t h a v e
h e a r d th e q u e s t io n c o r r e c t ly. A r e y o u a s k i n g w h a t k n o w l e d g e h e h a d a t
10

t h e t i m e h e w a s a t te n d i n g t h e m e e t in g o r a r e y o u a s k i n g w h a t
k n o w l e d g e h e g a in e d a f t e r th e m e e ti n g a s t o t h e r o l e o f th e F D C ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n I w a s s a ti s f i e d t h a t h e s a i d th a t
a t t h e ti m e h e a tt e n d e d th e m e e ti n g th e y w e r e i n fo r m e d t h a t t h e F D C
w a s a b o u t to t a k e o v e r.

M y s u b s e q u e n t q u e s t io n w a s t h e n w h e n d id

y o u fi n d o u t th a t in fa c t th e FD C h a d ta k e n o v e r.

S o t h e r e w e r e tw o

s e p a r a t e q u e s ti o n s C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. N o w I u n d e r s t a n d i t . I t is a ll a b o u t – it is
a l l a b o u t t e n s e . N o w I u n d e r s t a n d . O k a y b u t y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r th e
d a t e w h e n y o u fo u n d o u t t h a t t h e F D C h a d t a k e n o v e r b u t a r e y o u a b l e
20

t o i n d ic a t e h o w s o o n a f te r th e f o u r t h m e e ti n g i t w a s th a t y o u l e a r n t t h a t
the FDC had taken over?
I N T E R P R E T E R : Th e la s t p a r t o f th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t m e – y o u s a y y o u o r I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u
m i g h t n o t r e c a ll t h e d a te w h e n e x a c tl y y o u m i g h t h a v e h e a r d t h a t t h e
F D C h a d t a k e n o v e r.

D o y o u w a n t t o in t e r p r e t t h a t p a r t ; b u t a r e y o u

Page 102 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
a b l e to s a y h o w l o n g a ft e r t h e f o u r t h m e e ti n g y o u l e a r n t t h a t th e F D C
h a d b y th e n t a k e n o v e r ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It was

t h e d a y w h e n A lt a M e y e r c a m e t o t e l l u s t h a t t h e F D C is ta k i n g o v e r th e
r u n n in g o f th e d a ir y p r o je c t. I t h i n k i t w a s m o r e li k e th is w e e k a n d t h e n
t h e f o l lo w i n g w e e k t h e y t o o k o v e r t h e r u n n i n g o f t h e p r o je c t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Now can you please explain what you set
o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 w h e r e - a n d I w il l ju s t p a r a p h r a s e - y o u d i s c u s s th e
q u e s t io n w h e th e r o r n o t y o u w e r e r e c o g n i s e d a s b e n e fic i a r i e s .
10

When

d i d th a t d is c u s s i o n t a k e p l a c e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Well

w h a t h a p p e n e d i s y o u r w o r s h i p / C h a ir p e r s o n is th a t i n t h e w e e k t h a t th e
F D C t o o k o v e r th e r u n n i n g o f th e p r o j e c t i t w a s t h a t d a y w h e n w e s a w
them and we met up with them and then we told them that they are not
g o i n g t o b e n o m in a ti n g o t h e r p e o p l e a s b e n e fi c i a r ie s b e c a u s e w e a r e
t h e r e a lr e a d y a s e x is t in g b e n e fic ia r i e s a n d w e t h e r e f o r e r e q u e s te d t h e m
to

b r in g

d o c u m e n t a ti o n

to

th a t

e ffe c t

th a t

shows

that

we

are

b e n e fic i a r i e s .
D o c u m e n t s li k e f o r in s t a n c e th e r e i s a b a n k a c c o u n t o p e n t h a t
20

r e a l ly s h o w s t h a t w e a r e b e n e fic i a r i e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h e r e d id t h a t m e e t in g ta k e p l a c e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

At the

t o w n h a ll .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w h o a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e t in g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Page 103 of 129

Though

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w e l l b u t FD C w a s th e r e . A lr e a d y w e w e r e to ld b y
Tu t o a n d t h e m u n ic i p a l o ff ic ia ls t h a t th e y i n t e n d n o m i n a ti n g o t h e r
b e n e fic i a r i e s .

S o w e w e r e in t h a t m e e ti n g w i t h th e F D C a n d t h e n I

r a i s e d t h is is s u e o f th e m n o t n o m i n a ti n g o t h e r b e n e f ic ia r i e s b e c a u s e w e
w e r e e x is ti n g b e n e f ic i a r ie s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Pl e a s e j u s t c la r i fy b e f o r e y o u g o fu r t h e r.

W h o i n t e n d e d n o m i n a t i n g n e w b e n e fi c i a r i e s ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through interpreter): FDC.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

D o y o u h a v e a n y n a m e s o f th e o ffic i a ls

fr o m F D C w h o a t te n d e d t h e m e e ti n g y o u a r e r e l a t i n g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

It was

f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e s e e i n g t h e m y o u r w o r s h i p . I a m n o t s u r e i f th e y w e r e
p ic k e d u p fr o m t h e s tr e e ts b u t i t w a s f o r t h e fir s t ti m e t o s e e th e m o n
t h e d a y i n q u e s ti o n .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w w h a t e x a c tl y d i d Tu t o a n d K o liz a – i n
f a c t y o u s a id it w a s Tu t o a n d …
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : K o l iz a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : K o li z a ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t d id t h e y s a y t o y o u ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

They

w e r e a d v i s i n g u s b a s e d o n th e fa c t t h a t t h e A g r ic u lt u r a l D e p a r t m e n t a s
w e ll a s t h e m u n i c i p a l it y w e r e a lr e a d y n o w r e m o v e d fr o m th e d a i r y
project.
should

Th a t F D C is n o w ta k i n g o v e r.
not

agree

to

th e m

We should not agree to – we

n o m i n a t in g

Page 104 of 129

or

s e l e c ti n g

other

new

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
b e n e fic i a r i e s .
they

did

E v e n in th e n e w s a r ti c l e - Bl o e m f o n t e in n e w s p a p e r -

mention

b e n e fic i a r i e s .

th e

fa c t

that

th e y

w il l

be

n o m in a ti n g

new

T h a t t h e r e w a s a n a r t ic l e i n a B l o e m f o n t e i n n e w s p a p e r

t h a t th e y w i ll b e n o m i n a t in g n e w b e n e fi c ia r i e s .

W e h e a r d t h a t fr o m

Tu t o a n d K o l iz a .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h a t w a s t h e p o s i t io n y o u t h e n to o k a t

t h e m e e ti n g w i th t h e F D C ? W h a t w a s t h e o u t c o m e o f t h a t m e e t in g ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

The

m e e ti n g j u s t e n d e d y o u r w o r s h i p a f te r I h a v e – C h a ir a f t e r I h a d
10

r e q u e s t e d t h e m t o g o a n d g e t d o c u m e n t a r y p r o o f o r d o c u m e n ts t h a t
s h o w t h a t w e a r e t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s o f t h is p r o j e c t . U n ti l th e y p r o d u c e
s u c h th e n t h e m e e t i n g w a s th e n d is s o lv e d j u s t l ik e t h a t.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

H o w m a n y m e m b e r s o f t h e c o m m u n i ty

a tt e n d e d th a t m e e t i n g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : A lo t o f
b e n e fic i a r i e s – a lo t o f u s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d h o w h a d t h e y b e e n c o n ta c t e d a n d t o ld
a b o u t t h a t F D C m e e ti n g ?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through
20

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

The

m e e ti n g th a t w e h a d w i th M s A l t a M e y e r s h e d i d i n f o r m u s o f th e d a te –
the day that they were coming to see us.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n y o u t h e n j u s t t e ll u s a b o u t t h e fi f t h –
w h a t y o u c a ll t h e f if t h m e e ti n g in y o u r p a r a g r a p h 2 1 ?
CHAIRPERSON: And just before you say that can you – you deal with
that.

C a n y o u ju s t t e ll m e a g a i n w h e th e r M s M e y e r w a s e m p l o y e d a t

Page 105 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
t h e O ffi c e o f t h e Pr e m i e r o r w h e t h e r s h e w o r k e d fo r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
A g r ic u l t u r e o r w h e r e s h e w o r k e d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Fr o m

M r A c e M a g a s h u l e ’s o ffic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s w h e r e – t h a t is w h e r e s h e w o r k e d i n th e O ff ic e
o f t h e P r e m ie r ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

She

s a i d s h e w a s s e n t b y t h e P r e m ie r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

W h e n y o u s a y s h e w a s fr o m t h e P r e m ie r ’s

O ff ic e is t h a t b e c a u s e o f w h a t s h e to ld o r w h e t h e r y o u a ls o k n o w a s a
f a c t t h a t s h e w o r k e d in t h e P r e m ie r ’s O ffi c e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : S h e t o l d
u s th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Th e n y o u c a n d e a l w i t h t h e f i f th m e e ti n g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . C o u l d y o u t h e n j u s t
t e ll t h e C h a ir m a n b r ie f ly w h a t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g t h e f i f th m e e ti n g ?

So

w h o a tt e n d e d i t a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
INTERPRETER: And when?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

What – who attended, what happened,

when it happened – when the meeting took place?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : T h e f i ft h
m e e ti n g i t w a s c a ll e d b y t h e P r e m ie r M r Ac e M a g a s h u l e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n y o u j u s t s to p th e r e fo r o n e m i n u t e ?

D i d t h e P r e m i e r p e r s o n a l ly c a ll th e m e e t in g o r d id p e o p l e h e d e l e g a t e d
t o d o s o c a ll t h e m e e t in g ?

Page 106 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI

(through

i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

He

d e l e g a t e d Tu t o a n d K o l iz a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : T h a t a ll
b e n e fic i a r i e s a r e c a l l e d u p o n t o a t t e n d a m e e ti n g .

Mr Magashule the

P r e m i e r w a n ts t o m e e t w i t h u s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h e r e w a s t h is m e e t in g i n t e n d e d t o ta k e

place?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :
10

At the

t o w n h a ll .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s c o n t in u e .

What then happened on

that day?
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI (through

i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

The

m e e ti n g d i d n o t t a k e p la c e . I n s t e a d th e r e w a s tr a n s p o r t m a d e a v a il a b l e
b y b u s e s th a t t o o k – t h e r e w e r e – t h e r e w a s tr a n s p o r t b y b u s m a d e
a v a i la b le . T h e y t h e n t o o k u s a n d t h e o t h e r p e o p l e w h o w e r e t h e r e fr o m
t h e W o m e n ’s L e a g u e t h e y t o o k u s to t h e d a ir y p r o je c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o n t in u e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) : S o m e o f
20

t h e f a r m e r s c o u l d n o t g e t in t o t h e tr a n s p o r t b e c a u s e t h e b u s w a s n o w
f u ll w i t h t h e A N C W o m e n ’s L e a g u e .

I th e n g o t a l if t fr o m M r M a h la b a

w i t h h is c a r. T h e n w e w e n t t o t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t . M r Z w a n e w a s th e r e a t
t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t . M r A c e M a g a s h u l e . T h e r e w e r e o t h e r s t h o u g h . I d o
n o t r e m e m b e r t h e m w e ll b u t I r e m e m b e r t h a t Mr M a d ib a w a s th e r e .
s p o k e t o h i m o n th a t d a y.

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I

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W a s Tu t o th e r e ? W a s K o l iz a th e r e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

They

w o u ld n o t b e l e f t o u t in a n y e v e n t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h a t m e a n s y e s t h e y w e r e th e r e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s t h e y
were there.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d y o u m e e t w it h th e Pr e m i e r a n d w i th

M r Zw a n e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : W e s a w
10

them.

Th e y w e r e p r e s e n t t h e r e b u t t h e y w e r e o b s e r v in g t h e w h o l e

s tr u c t u r e o f t h e d a ir y p r o je c t a n d t h e b u i ld i n g b u t t h e y w e r e t h e r e .
They did not speak to us.

T h e r e w a s n o m e e ti n g t h a t t h e y c a ll e d o r

c o n d u c t e d a n d f r o m t h e r e w e h e a r d t h a t t h e y w e r e s e r v i n g r e fr e s h m e n ts
o f f o o d a n d t h e n w e le f t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o th e – t h e u p s h o t o f t h a t m e e t in g w a s

t h a t y o u d id n o t g e t t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o s p e a k to t h e P r e m ie r ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w a n t t o th e n ju s t d e a l w it h s o m e o f th e
o th e r m e e t i n g s b u t c a n I ju s t c l e a r o n e m a t te r C h a ir m a n ? M y c o l le a g u e
20

h a s b e e n c h e c k i n g o n t h e e m p l o y m e n t o f A lt a M e y e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h e r e is a – a d o c u m e n t i n t h e

R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e A a t p a g e 2 - 3 - 4 . Yo u m a y j u s t w a n t t o m a k e a n o te .
It is a document to General Managers.

I t is fr o m t h e A g r ic u l t u r e a n d

R u r a l D e v e lo p m e n t D e p a r t m e n t a n d i t is a d o c u m e n t t h a t s a y s :

Page 108 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
“ I n q u ir i e s

are

to

be

made

to

Ms Meyer

–

A C M e y e r. ”
A n d t h a t t h e – o n t h e s e c o n d p a g e t h e r e is a n o te t h a t s a y s :
“ M s M e y e r is a n a c ti n g d ir e c to r. ”
S o fr o m t h i s d o c u m e n t C h a i r m a n a n d i f w e l o o k a t t h e E N S
R e p o r t w h i c h w e w i ll b e d e a l in g w i th o n F r id a y h e r n a m e t h e r e a s w e l l
is o n a s a C o o r d i n a t o r o f t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t b u t i n t h e e m p l o y m e n t
a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t f r o m t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n C h a ir m a n o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t
o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t n o t t h e P r e mi e r ’s O ffi c e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B r i e fly t e ll t h e C h a ir m a n a b o u t th e

m e e ti n g t h a t M E …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y b e f o r e h e d o e s s o I n o r m a lly t a k e a s h o r t
b r e a k a t f o u r i f w e a r e g o in g t o g o b e y o n d f o u r. S o m a y b e w e s h o u l d
take that. Just 10 minutes.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: So …
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: That would be convenient.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a . W e w ill a d j o u r n a n d t h e n w e w il l r e s u m e a t 1 0

p a s t f o u r. W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t ’s p r o c e e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . Mr D h l a m i n i w e a r e
a t p a g e 6 , a n d t h a t ’s p a r a g r a p h 2 2 , a n d I r e a l ly j u s t w a n t y o u t o g iv e
t h e C h a ir m a n a q u ic k s u m m a r y o f w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n M E C Q a b a th e
( s p e l t) a t t e n d e d a m e e ti n g w i th y o u .

I know you have summarised in

o n e s e n t e n c e w h a t h a p p e n e d b u t I k n o w t h a t y o u in th e n a r r a t iv e y o u
ju s t m a y w a n t t o a d d o n e o r t w o m o r e d e ta ils .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t,
w e d i d h a v e a m e e ti n g w i t h h e r, s h e c a ll e d u s i n to a m e e ti n g , s h e
10

w a n t e d t o h e a r .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Mic.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) :

In d e e d

s h e c a ll e d u s i n t o a m e e t in g , s h e w a n te d to fi n d o u t a b o u t t h e
d o c u m e n ts is s u e , b u t s h e d i d n o t te ll u s m u c h o r s a id m u c h t h a t is o f
g o o d n e w s to u s .

S h e w a n t e d t o f in d o u t a b o u t th e d o c u m e n ts .

c o r r e c t io n , s h e w a n te d t o f i n d o u t a b o u t u s g o in g t o m e d i a .

Oh
She

w a n t e d t o f in d o u t a b o u t u s g o i n g t o t h e m e d i a , t h a t w a s th e r e a s o n
w h y s h e c a ll e d a m e e ti n g . C o r r e c t io n w h e n I u s e d d o c u m e n ts , a n d th e n
s h e , lik e I s a i d t h e r e w e r e n o g o o d n e w s t h a t s h e s a i d t o u s e x c e p t t o
20

fi n d o u t a b o u t u s g o i n g t o th e m e d i a a n d th e n s h e c a l l e d fr o g s , w h e n
y o u w a n t t o g o a n d fe t c h w a t e r a n d th e fr o g is m a k i n g s o u n d s Yo u r
W o r s h i p y o u ju s t ig n o r e i t a n d g o t o fe tc h w a t e r, a s y o u h a v e i n te n d e d ,
ju s t i g n o r e i t . S h e fu r t h e r t o l d u s a b o u t h o w s h e g o t th e p o s i ti o n a n d
t h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n t h e r e f o r t o o l o n g k in d o f t h i n g o r c a m p a ig n in g .
T h a t is a ll s h e s a i d w h ic h w a s n o t g o o d n e w s f o r u s . S h e ju s t i n s u lt e d

Page 110 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
us.
CHAIRPERSON:

What was your understanding of who she was

r e fe r r i n g t o a s m a k in g n o is e l ik e a fr o g t h a t h a d t o b e ig n o r e d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s s h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t h a t to u s , my s e l f a n d M r
Mungani, because we are the ones who approached the media.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, w h a t h a d y o u b e e n t o ld w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t
m e e ti n g w i th h e r ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :
10

It was

n o t c l e a r th e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n , it w a s ju s t a b o u t t h e
is s u e o f u s h a v in g g o n e t o t h e m e d i a r e g a r d i n g t h i s is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

Th e r e

w a s a m a y o r a n d c o u n c i ll o r s i n th a t m e e t in g a n d t h e y w e r e la u g h i n g ,
n o t h i n g m u c h w a s s a id in t h a t m e e ti n g , t h e y w e r e ju s t l a u g h i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d C h i e f D ir e c t o r M r M o d i b a w a s w i t h

y o u a s w e l l a t t h a t m e e ti n g .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

W h a t c o n t r ib u ti o n d i d h e m a k e t o t h e

d is c u s s io n s ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I d i d n o t
h e a r h i s c o n tr ib u ti o n o r w h a t h e s a i d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t d id y o u t h e n d o ? Yo u th e i n d iv i d u a l.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :
r e m a in e d t h e r e u n ti l t h e m e e t in g w a s d is s o lv e d .

Page 111 of 129

We

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n y o u c l a r if y f o r t h e C h a ir m a n a r e w e

t a lk in g a b o u t o n e m e e t i n g w h e r e M E C Q a b a t h e a n d C h i e f D ir e c t o r
M o d i b a w e r e p r e s e n t o r a r e w e ta lk in g a b o u t t w o s e p a r a t e m e e ti n g s ,
o n e w h e r e M E C Q a b a t h e a n d M r M o d i b a w e r e p r e s e n t a n d a d i ff e r e n t
o n e w h e r e Mr M o d ib a w a s o n h is o w n , j u s t f o r c l a r i ty.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

This

m e e ti n g i t ’s t h e o n e w h e r e t h e r e w a s M E C Q a b a t h e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Mr D h l a m i n i w h e n y o u e x p la in u lo a n d

p o i n t t h e r e c o r d d o e s n o t k n o w w h a t y o u a r e p o in t in g a t .
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I t’s a

. . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] m e e ti n g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s , th e fir s t o n e w a s M E C Q a b a t h e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W i th o ffi c i a l s .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d o n e o f t h o s e o ffi c i a l s h a p p e n e d t o b e
C h i e f D ir e c to r M o d ib a .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n a s e p a r a te m e e t i n g t o o k p la c e a t a
20

la t e r s t a g e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m j u s t lo o k i n g a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 2 2 ,
w h e r e y o u s a y n o p r o g r e s s w a s m a d e o n o u r c o m p la in t i t s h o u l d b e
a b o u t th e d a ir y s o I l e f t t h a t m e e ti n g . Te ll u s a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g w i th
M r M o d i b a a n d w h y y o u le f t th a t m e e ti n g .

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : W e w r o t e
t o M r M o d i b a m y s e l f a n d M r N q o n g w a n e , t h a t’s t h e m e e t i n g w h e r e I
d e c i d e d t o w a lk a w a y.

It w a s i n t h a t m e e t in g w h e r e th e c o u n c i ll o r s

w a n t e d t o t a k e o v e r t h e m e e ti n g fr o m u s , li k e a s k i n g , q u e s t io n i n g u s
in d i v i d u a lly a n d b a s ic a l ly a s s e s s i n g u s a s t o w h o is s m a r t e r t h a n t h e
o th e r o n e .

W e w r o te to M r M o d i b a r e q u e s ti n g h i m t o c o m e to th e

m e e ti n g , w e , m y s e l f a n d M r N q o n g w a n e h a d q u e s t io n s to a s k h i m , n o t
t h e m a s k in g u s q u e s t io n s s o t h e y to o k o v e r th e m e e ti n g . W e w r o t e to
h i m b e c a u s e w e a r e t h e o n e s w h o h a d q u e s ti o n s , n o t t h e m t a k i n g o v e r
10

t h e m e e ti n g .

I t w a s a t th a t s t a g e w h e n I t h e n w a lk e d a w a y fr o m t h e

m e e ti n g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h is m e e t i n g o b v io u s ly t o o k p l a c e a ft e r
t h e P r e m i e r h a d c o m e t o t h e d a ir y a n d a f t e r M E C Q a b a t h e h a d b e e n t o
Vr e d e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

That is

correct.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n te r ms o f t i m e fr a m e s M r D h la m i n i i f th e
F D C t o o k o v e r r u n n i n g t h e f ir m i n m i d - Au g u s t , a r o u n d th e 1 4 t h o f
A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 a r e y o u a b le t o g i v e t h e C h a ir m a n a r o u g h id e a a s t o w h e n
20

t h e s e m e e t in g s , t h e Q a b a th e m e e ti n g a n d t h e s u b s e q u e n t M o d i b a
m e e ti n g w o u l d h a v e t a k e n p l a c e ?

W o u l d i t h a v e b e e n in 2 0 1 4 , a f t e r

A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 o r w o u ld i t h a v e b e e n e a r ly i n 2 0 1 5 j u s t s o t h e C h a i r m a n
h a s a ti m e f r a m e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Okay

w h a t h a p p e n e d is F D C h a s a l r e a d y t a k e n o v e r, M r Z w a n e w a s th e n o u r,

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
s t e p p e d d o w n w a s r e m o v e d a n d th e n t h e r e w a s n o w M s Q a b a th e a n d
t h e n Mr M o d ib a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e M E C , s h e is f e m a l e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :
o k a y M E C Q a b a th e .

MEC,

A n d t h e n Q a b a t h e a s w e ll s t e p p e d d o w n , w a s

r e m o v e d , th e n M r M o d i b a o r C h i e f D ir e c t o r M o d i b a t o o k o v e r, t h a t is a t
t h a t s t a g e w h e n w e w r o t e t o h i m to in v i t e h i m to a m e e t i n g .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o I w a s t r y in g t o fi n d o u t i f t h e m e e ti n g
w i t h M o d ib a t o o k p la c e i n 2 0 1 4 o r 2 0 1 5 , I’ m ju s t tr y i n g t o l o c a te th a t
10

m e e ti n g .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

I t is

r e c e n t ly if I r e m e m b e r w e ll , i t c a n h a p p e n t h a t it w a s i n 2 0 1 5 .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t is i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e th e n e x t p e r s o n

y o u h a d a m e e ti n g w i th w a s D r M a s i t e n g , D a n k is e M a s i te n g .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

R o u g h ly w h e n d i d t h a t m e e ti n g t a k e

place?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : A l t h o u g h
I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d a te b u t t h e f o l l o w i n g d a y Mr M a i m a n i w a s
20

c o m i n g o v e r a t t h e d a ir y p r o je c t i n Vr e d e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Do you

mean your

m e e t in g w i th D r M a s i t e n g

h a p p e n e d t h e d a y b e f o r e y o u r m e e t in g w i t h Mr M a i m a n e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Thank you.

Page 114 of 129

Te ll u s a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
with Dr Masiteng.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

In that

m e e ti n g t h e r e w a s a ls o M r M o d i b a , th e r e w e r e t h r e e . T h o u g h I d o n o t
r e m e m b e r t h e o th e r o n e , w h o it w a s , th e m e e ti n g w a s s u p p o s e d to b e
h e l d a t t h e A g r ic u l t u r e D e p a r t m e n t o n l y t o d is c o v e r th a t t h e r e w a s n o ,
t h e s p a c e w a s s m a ll o r t h e r e w a s n o t e n o u g h s p a c e . I k n o w t h a t I d i d
n o t m e n t io n t h a t i n m y s t a te m e n t b u t I a m m e n t io n in g it n o w.

Tu d o

c a l ls m e h e s a i d th e r e is M r M a s i t e n g a n d M r M o d i b a th e y a r e c a ll in g
you.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D r M a s i t e n g a n d w h o , Mr M o d ib a ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Mr

M o d i b a a n d th e o t h e r o n e , th e y w e r e s t a n d in g o u t s i d e s o I w e n t
outside.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e r e y o u a lo n e o r w e r e y o u a c c o m p a n i e d
by somebody?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I was

alone.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s ?
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y I a m s o r r y, I t h o u g h t e a r li e r o n y o u s a i d Mr

Tu d o s a i d t o y o u D r M a s it e n g a n d M r M o d i b a w e r e c a ll i n g y o u , d i d I
h e a r y o u c o r r e c tl y ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s , t h e y
were three thought I don’t remember the other one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t’s t h e t h ir d o n e t h a t y o u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .

Page 115 of 129

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o n t in u e , s o y o u w e n t o u ts i d e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

The

o th e r f a r m e r s w e r e in a h o u s e i n t h e A g r i c u l t u r e D e p a r t m e n t , I w e n t t o
t h e m . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Who, when you say them who are you

t a lk in g a b o u t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Dr

M a s i t e n g , a n d Mr M o d i b a a n d t h is g u y w h o I d o n o t k n o w.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u w e r e c a ll e d , w h e n M r Tu d o s a i d D r

M a s i t e n g a n d M r M o d i b a w e r e c a ll in g y o u w e r e y o u i n s i d e th e p r e m is e s
o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s I w a s i n s i d e t h e h o u s e .
C H A I R : W e r e y o u w h e r e th e m e e t in g w a s g o i n g t o t a k e p l a c e t o g e t h e r
with other farmers?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e t w o w h o y o u w e r e t o l d w e r e c a ll in g y o u w e r e
t h e y o u ts i d e o f t h e r o o m w h e r e y o u w e r e a n d o th e r f a r m e r s w e r e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :
20

They

w e r e o u t s i d e t h e r o o m w h e r e w e w e r e a t w i th t h e o t h e r f a r m e r s b u t
in s i d e t h e y a r d Yo u r W o r s h i p o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

H a d th e y b e e n i n th e s a m e r o o m w h e r e y o u a n d th e

o th e r f a r m e r s w e r e b u t t h e y l e f t t h e r o o m b e fo r e y o u w e r e c a l le d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) :

Yo u r

W o r s h i p m a y I g e t c l a r i t y o f t h a t . W e w e r e in s i d e t h e h o u s e w h e r e t h e

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
m e e ti n g w a s t o b e h e l d t h e n Tu d o c a l l e d m e a n d s a i d D r M a s i t e n g a n d
M r M o d i b a t h e y a r e c a l li n g m e o u ts id e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n M r Tu d o to l d y o u t h a t w e r e t h e t w o m e n , D r

M a s i t e n g a n d M r M o d i b a in s i d e t h e r o o m w h e r e t h e m e e ti n g w a s t o b e
h e l d o r w e r e t h e y a lr e a d y o u ts i d e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

They

were outside.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s , s o y o u w e n t o u t s i d e ?
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h e r e w a s K u lis a , w h e r e w a s Tu d o w h e n
y o u w e n t o u ts i d e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

K u lis a

w a s n o t th e r e , Tu d o w a s p r e s e n t , K u l is a w a s n o t t h e r e , Tu d o m y s e l f w e
w e n t o u t to g e th e r a n d h e s a i d n o y o u c a n s p e a k t o M r D h l a m in i h e i s
n o t a b a d p e r s o n a f t e r a ll .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h o w a s h e s a y in g t h is t o ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

He was

r e fe r r i n g t h a t t o D r M a s it e n g , M r M o d i b a a n d t h i s o t h e r t h i r d m a n th a t I
20

d o n ’t k n o w h is n a m e
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I d i d n o t
h e a r e x a c tly w h a t t h e y w e r e s a y in g t o m e o r t h e c o n v e r s a t io n b e tw e e n
m y s e l f a n d th e m t o a p o i n t th a t I e n d e d u p te ll in g t h e m t h a t y o u a r e
n o w c a l li n g m e b y n a m e s a n d m y v o t e i s m y s e c r e t .

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It w a s a t t h a t

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
s t a g e Yo u r W o r s h i p w h e n I a s k e d t h e m o r I t o l d t h e m w h a t is a b a b y
s n a k e a n d t h e y s a id i t i s a s n a k e a n d th e n I s a i d I w i ll a l w a y s r e m a i n
t h e A N C m e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well there is something that must have been

d is c u s s e d b e t w e e n y o u o n th e o n e h a n d a n d t h e m o n t h e o t h e r b e f o r e
y o u r e a c h e d t h a t p o i n t, b e c a u s e t h e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o h a d c a l le d y o u
is n ’ t i t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Well

w h a t I k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s Tu d o s a i d y o u c a n s p e a k to M r
10

D h l a m in i h e is n o t a b a d p e r s o n , s o a c c o r d i n g t o t h e m th e y a s s u m e d
t h a t Tu d o h a s a l r e a d y to l d m e w h a t e v e r t h e y w a n t e d t o t e l l m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u m u s t h a v e a s k e d t h e m w h y d id y o u c a l l m e ,

a n d I a s s u m e t h e y w o u ld h a v e t o l d y o u , d id y o u n o t a s k t h e m w h y d i d
y o u c a l l m e a n d i f y o u d i d w h a t d id t h e y s a y t o y o u ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

N o th e y

d i d n ’ t s a y a n d t h e n e x t t h in g it w a s li k e i t i s j u s t a s m a ll s p a c e h e r e , w e
n e e d t o m o v e t o t h e M u n ic ip a li ty H a ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e th e y t h e r e fo r e n o t c a ll in g y o u a s t h e l e a d e r o f

t h e f a r m e r s a s s o c i a ti o n i n Vr e d e t o d is c u s s w i th y o u t h e s u g g e s ti o n
20

t h a t th e m e e ti n g s h o u l d m o v e to a b i g g e r p la c e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I a m s ti ll
c o m i n g t h e r e b e c a u s e I le a r n t t h a t a f te r w h e n I w a s w i th th e m a t t h e
ti m e t h a t w a s n e v e r c o n v e y e d t o m e o r s a i d t o m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

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A t t h a t p o i n t d id

23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
y o u t h e n g o b a c k i n t o t h e f a c i li ty w h e r e e v e r y b o d y e ls e w a s ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d d i d t h e m e e t in g p r o c e e d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :

No we

then changed the venue.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H a v in g c h a n g e d t h e v e n u e d id t h e m e e ti n g
proceed?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s

in d e e d i t d i d p r o c e e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y b e f o r e w e g e t in t o t h a t m e e ti n g le t ’s g o b a c k t o
t h e ti m e w h e n y o u w e r e w it h t h e t h r e e m e n o u ts id e t h e r o o m w h e r e t h e
m e e ti n g w a s g o i n g t o b e h e ld in i ti a l ly.
MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINI DHLAMINI (through interpreter):

Outside

n o w C h a ir ? Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u s t w a n t y o u to b e s u r e t h a t t h is i s n o t a c a s e

w h e r e m a y b e y o u c a n ’ t r e c a l l w h a t t h e y s a id b e c a u s e i t d o e s n ’ t s e e m t o
m a k e s e n s e th a t t h e y c a ll e d y o u a n d y o u d i d n o t a s k w h y d i d y o u c a l l
m e b u t y o u t a lk e d a b o u t th e m c a l li n g y o u n a m e s a n d t h e n y o u w e n t
b a c k in t o th e r o o m . Ar e y o u s u r e y o u r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly th a t t h e y d i d
20

n o t s a y a n y th i n g t o y o u a b o u t w h y t h e y h a d c a ll e d y o u ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r p r e t e r ) : H o n e s tl y
I d i d n o t a s k t h e m a s t o w h y w e r e t h e y c a lli n g m e a n d t h e y d i d n o t s a y
a n y th in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o d i d t h e fo u r o f y o u ju s t lo o k a t o n e a n o th e r o u t s i d e
there and said nothing and then you went back?

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : I s h a k e d
t h e ir h a n d s , t h a t is w h e r e I w a s w a i t in g f o r t h e m to s a y s o m e t h i n g , th e y
s a i d n o t h i n g , th a t ’s w h e n I u t t e r e d t h o s e w o r d s , a b a b y s n a k e , b e c a u s e
t h e y w e r e n o w r e f e r r i n g t o m e a s a D A m e m b e r. T h a t is a t t h a t s ta g e
w h e r e I t o l d th e m a s t o w h a t is t h e b a b y s n a k e .

T h e y l a u g h e d , th e n

they said we must change the venue.
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y, I m is s e d s o m e th in g , I th i n k y o u s a i d t h e y

w e r e c a ll in g y o u s o m e t h in g , I d id n ’ t h e a r, w h a t w e r e t h e y c a ll i n g y o u ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r pr e t e r ) :
10

They

w e r e c a ll in g m e b y n a m e s a y i n g I a m D A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : D A .
CHAIRPERSON: DA, they were saying you are a DA member?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

A DA

m e m b e r, a D A p o li t ic a l p a r t y m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O h o k a y.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

I was

s a y in g th a t n o t t h e m Yo u r W o r s h i p , t h a t p e o p l e w e r e m a k i n g ja th a t I
a m D A m e m b e r, n o t t h e m s p e c i fi c a ll y. I w a n t e d t h e m t o c o m e o u t Yo u r
20

W o r s h i p w it h t h e r e a s o n w h y th e y c a ll e d m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, i s t h a t t h e r e a s o n w h y y o u w e r e t e lli n g th e m
t h a t y o u w o u l d r e m a i n a m e m b e r o f th e A N C ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. B u t y o u e a r li e r o n y o u s a i d y o u o n l y h e a r d
la t e r o r m a y b e I m is u n d e r s to o d , d i d t h e y s a y w h e n y o u w e r e t h e m

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
o u t s i d e t h a t v e n u e , t h a t t h e m e e ti n g s h o u l d s h if t t o a n o t h e r p l a c e , a
b i g g e r v e n u e , d i d th e y s a y t h a t t h e r e o r d i d t h e y n o t s a y t h a t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : N o Tu d o
is th e o n e w h o c a m e a n d s a i d w e m u s t s h i f t f r o m t h is v e n u e t o a b ig g e r
venue.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u t h e n m o v e d t o t h e b i g g e r v e n u e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H LA M I N I ( t hr o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) : C o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e m e e ti n g p r o c e e d e d ?
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Ye s th e

m e e ti n g p r o c e e d e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h o w a s i n a t te n d a n c e a t t h e t i m e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t h r o u g h i nt e r p r e t e r ) :

Dr

M a s i t e n g , Mr M a d ib a a n d th is o th e r g e n t l e m a n t h a t I d o n ’ t k n o w. Th is
is h o w th e m e e ti n g r e s u m e d , o n o u r a r r iv a l a t th e m u n i c i p a l p r e m i s e s
t h e y h a d a s e p a r a t e c a u c u s t o t h e p o i n t t h a t w e s t a r t e d a s k in g
o u r s e lv e s a s t o w h a t w e r e t h e y d o i n g t h e r e b e c a u s e it w a s t i m e f o r a
m e e ti n g to b e h e l d . O n t h e ir a r r i v a l t h e n t h e m e e t in g p r o c e e d e d . I w a s
t h e o n e w h o w a s a s k i n g q u e s t io n s . I w a s b a s ic a lly c h a l le n g i n g t h e m a s
20

t o h o w t h i s t h in g w a s s u p p o s e d t o h a v e h a p p e n e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t a r e y o u d e s c r ib in g a s th is th i n g ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N I D H L A M I N I ( t hr o u g h i n t e r pr e t e r ) : T h a t t h e
d a ir y p r o j e c t t h e p e o p l e w h o h a v e o n ly 4 8 % s h a r e s t a k e t h e d e c i s i o n s
o n o u r b e h a l f . C h a ir I t a k e th e d e c is i o n s o n o u r b e h a l f. T h a t w e a r e
t h e o n e s w h o w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e m a k in g d e c is i o n s .

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
I N T E R P R E T E R : Yo u r W o r s h ip I n e e d h e l p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: O h m e a n i n g t h e y fo r g o t i n t h e
p r o c e s s t h a t t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to p r o c e e d w it h t h e p r o je c t Yo u r
W o r s h i p w h i c h w a s a lr e a d y i n i ti a t e d a t [ in d is ti n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s o u n d s lik e s le e p i n g o n t h e w h e e l .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O r o n th e j o b .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r o n th e j o b . J a . Wa s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t w h e n
t h e y s a i d t h a t t h e y w e r e a d m i t ti n g th a t t h e y h a d n o t d o n e t h in g s t h e
10

r ig h t w a y w it h r e g a r d to t h e p r o j e c t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

T h a t is c o r r e c t Yo u r W o r s h ip

t h e y d id a d m i t t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o f o l lo w th e p r o c e d u r e s th a t I
m e n ti o n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

And how – how was that meeting

concluded?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h e y a g r e e d w i t h m e h o w t h e
m e e ti n g w a s c o n c l u d e d is t h a t t h e y a g r e e d w i t h m e t h a t t h e y d id n o t d o
a s th e y w e r e r e q u ir e d – a s p e r th e a g r e e m e n t a s t o h o w t h i s p r o je c t is
20

going to be run.

L ik e s l e e p i n g o n d u ty.

B u t n o w th e y a g r e e w i t h m e

a n d t h e y s h o u l d h a v e d o n e t h i n g s t h e w a y I a m a d v is in g t h e m t o a n d
t h e n th a t is h o w t h e m e e t in g w a s t h e n d i s s o lv e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u a ls o m e n ti o n i n y o u r l a s t s e n t e n c e o f
p a r a g r a p h 2 3 t h a t a s y o u w e r e a s k i n g q u e s ti o n s th e r e w e r e m u n ic i p a l
o ffic i a ls w h o tr ie d t o d e fl e c t th o s e q u e s t io n s .

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M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I : T h a t is c o r r e c t a n d th e p e r s o n
w h o w a s i n te r f e r in g a l o t d u r i n g th a t – m e a s k in g q u e s ti o n s Yo u r
W o r s h i p i t w a s a c o u n s e l lo r b y th e n a m e o f D u m e K o b e d e w h o w a s
w o r k i n g f o r t h e m u n ic i p a l i ty, K o b e d e .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E:

O h I t h o u g h t D u m e K o b e d e w o r k e d f o r th e

A N C th a t is w h a t is w h a t is n o t e d a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 8 .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

O h h e w a s A N C c o u n s e l lo r b u t h e w a s

a ls o a m e m b e r o f t h e A N C ?
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: H e w a s a c o u n s e ll o r I a m n o t
s u r e o f h i s p o s it i o n c u r r e n tl y b u t t h e n h e w a s a c o u n s e l lo r.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w a f t e r t h e y h a d a d m i t te d t h a t t h e y h a d s l e p t o n

t h e jo b a n d th a t th e y s h o u l d h a v e d o n e e x a c t ly w h a t y o u w e r e
s u g g e s t in g s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d o n e w h a t w a s t h e w a y f o r w a r d t h a t w a s
agreed upon at the meeting if there was any way forward that was
agreed upon?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

N o t h i n g w a s s a i d a f t e r th a t .

T h e r e w a s n o r e s p o n s e a f te r t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ar e y o u s u r e a b o u t th a t b e c a u s e I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t
20

t h a t i f th e r e is a p r o j e c t th a t is g o i n g o n a n d t h e r e is d is s a ti s fa c t i o n
a n d e v e r y o n e a c k n o w le d g e s th a t c e r t a i n t h i n g s h a v e n o t b e e n d o n e
r ig h t I w o u ld h a v e th o u g h t th a t t h e r e w o u l d a l s o b e a f o c u s o n h o w d o
w e c o r r e c t t h e m i s ta k e s t h a t w e h a v e m a d e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I : I t d id n o t h a p p e n t h a t w a y a n d
a c c o r d i n g t o m y o b s e r v a t i o n i t w a s a w a y o f p r e v e n ti n g u s fr o m m e e t i n g

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w i t h Mr M a i m a n e th e fo ll o w i n g d a y b e c a u s e h e w a s c o m i n g t h e
f o ll o w i n g d a y t o s e e u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ta lk t o t h e C h a ir m a n a b o u t t h a t m e e t in g

w i t h Mr M a i m a n e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: A n d t h e n t h e d a y c a m e t o m e e t
w i t h M r M a i m a n e a t t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t f a r m .
m e m b e r s fr o m W a r d e n a n d M e m e l .

T h e r e w e r e c o m m u n i ty

T h e y r e f u s e d u s t o g e t i n to t h e

d a ir y p r o j e c t p r e mi s e s .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n – c a n I in t e r r u p t y o u ?

Yo u r

p a r a g r a p h 2 4 y o u s a y W a r d e n b e n e fic ia r i e s w e r e w i t h y o u b u t n o t t h e
o n e s fr o m M e m e l . S o l e t u s ju s t g e t t h e r e c o r d r i g h t.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o w h a t is th e c o r r e c t v e r s io n ?
MR

EPHRAIM

MAKHOSINO

DHLAMINI:

Th e r e

were

p e o p le

or

c o m m u n i ty m e m b e r s fr o m W a r d e n n o t M a m e l i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n t h e s e c o n d q u e s ti o n I h a v e y o u t h e n
t a lk a b o u t th e y r e f u s e d y o u e n tr y o r t h e y s t o p p e d y o u fr o m e n t e r in g ,
who are they?
20

MR EPHRAIM MAKHOSINO DHLAMINI:

Th e r e w e r e s e c u r i ty g u a r d s

w h o a r e m a n n i n g th e g a t e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A t t h is p o i n t in t i m e w e r e y o u w i t h Mr

Maimane?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W a s h e g i v e n e n tr y ?

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M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I : Ye s h e w a s a ll o w e d t o g e t i n t o
t h e – i n s id e th e p r e m i s e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

And how large was the group that

r e m a in e d o u ts id e th e p r e m i s e s ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H LA M I N I :

I t w a s a l o t o f p e o p le w h o

w e r e o u t s i d e b u t M r M a i m a n e w a s s u p p o s e d t o c h o o s e p e o p le o r a
d e l e g a ti o n t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d to c o m e in s i d e w i t h h i m .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y s o t e l l u s w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: A f t e r h e c h o s e h is d e l e g a t io n
10

t h e p e o p le t h a t h e w a n te d w i t h h i m i n s i d e . Th e n e x t th i n g w e r e a l is e d
t h a t t h e o th e r g r o u p w a s a ls o n o w i n s id e t h e p r e m is e s a n d a p p a r e n t ly
t h e y w e r e n o w a l l o w e d t o g e t i n s id e . I d o n o t k n o w w h o th e y c a l l e d t o
g iv e t h e m p e r m is s i o n t o b e in s i d e t h e p r e m is e s a s w e l l .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W a s t h i s t h e f ir s t ti m e y o u w e r e v i s i ti n g

t h e d a ir y ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:
ti m e , m y s e c o n d v is i t.

It was now for the second

I w e n t e v e n t h e ti m e w h e n M r A c e M a g a s h u le

was there as well.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

Ye s c o n t in u e .

So you entered the

p r e m is e s w i th M r M a i m a n e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h e r e w e r e o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t –
o r i s s u e s th a t w e w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t to a p o i n t t h a t I a s k e d t h e m a b o u t
t h e tr a c t o r w h i c h w a s g iv e n t o u s b y th e A g r i c u l tu r e D e p a r t m e n t. I w a s
a c t u a ll y s e e in g i t th e r e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o u l d y o u i d e n ti fy t h a t s p e c i f ic tr a c to r ?

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M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H o w w e r e y o u a b l e to i d e n ti fy i t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

We once – or we – we used

t h is tr a c t o r i t w a s a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s [ in d i s ti n c t ] th a t w e
w i ll u s e t h i s t r a c t o r f o r a n e x a m p l e w e w i l l g i v e i t t o a p e r s o n t o u s e i t
f o r a c e r t a i n d a y s m a y b e t w o d a y s a n d b r in g i t b a c k .

It was an

a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s t h e r e b e t w e e n o u r s e lv e s a n d Tu t u .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Wa s t h is th e o n ly it e m y o u r e c o g n is e d a s
o n e th a t g o v e r n m e n t h a d g i v e n to – o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e
10

h a d g iv e n to t h e c o m m u n i ty o f Vr e d e ?
INTERPRETER:

Yo u r W o r s h i p I a m n o t s u r e i f t h e n a m e s – I a m n o t

f a m ili a r w i th t h e e q u i p m e n t t h a t h e is m a k in g . S o I a m n o t s u r e if t h e
n a m e s a r e c o r r e c t . I k n o w th a t i t i s a tr a c t o r a n d h e m e n ti o n e d tr a c to r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y ta k e y o u r ti m e t o a s k h i m t o e x p l a i n a n y

e q u ip m e n t th a t y o u d o n o t k n o w.
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I t w a s t h e t r a c t o r i ts e l f a n d th e
e q u ip m e n t Yo u r W o r s h i p t h a t y o u u s e w i th t h e tr a c t o r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . C o n ti n u e .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I : A n o t h e r th i n g t h a t w e s a w Yo u r
20

W o r s h i p i t is a p o is o n t h a t is u s e d to k i ll c o w s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is a p l a n t .
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: I t is a p l a n t.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t – a n d if c a t tl e e a ts it t h e y d ie ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d y o u s e e q u i te a l a r g e fi e ld o f t h a t

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23 JULY 2019 – DAY 138
p a r t ic u l a r p l a n t?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

P le a s e d e s c r i b e t o t h e C h a ir m a n w h e n

that plant emerges? It has been described to me but please describe
what you know of that plant to the Chairman?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

I t is a g r e e n p l a n t.

W e c a ll

it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n u s e t h a t – y o u c a n u s e t h a t t e r m j u s t a s h e
uses it.
10

M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: O k a y. W e c a ll i t D e la m o o n . It
is a p la n t t h a t in v a d e s Yo u r W o r s h i p . I t c o m e s o u t f r o m – i f t h e g r a s s
g r o w s i t g r o w s t o g e t h e r w i t h g r a s s . T h e r e w a s a d e a d c o w t h e r e Yo u r
W o r s h i p i t w a s – th e c a r c a s s w a s s ti ll l y i n g t h e r e . A n d th e m o t h e r Yo u r
W o r s h i p w a s t h e r e l ik e c r y in g f o r j a s e n t l ik e c r y i n g . T h a t is w h e r e w e
t h e n n o t e d th a t t h e r e w a s a p r o b le m w i th t h e m a n a g e m e n t i t w a s n o t u p
t o s ta n d a r d o r th e c o r r e c t s t a n d a r d s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s th e – a n d t h a t s t il l d u r i n g t h e – M r M a i m a n e ’s

v is it y o u o b s e r v i n g t h i s d u r in g th a t ti m e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d th e F D C w a s m a n a g i n g t h e f a r m a t

t h a t p o in t in ti m e ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Any other comments on that visit?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

We also saw the area where

t h e m i lk i n g o f t h e c o w s w a s t a k in g p l a c e a n d t h o s e c o w s w e r e v e r y o ld .

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T h e r e w a s n o a c tiv i ty t h a t w a s g o i n g to – p r o d u c tiv e a c t iv it y t h a t w a s
going to take place. Those cows were very old.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h a t t i m e o f t h e d a y w a s t h is v is i t o f

yours?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

W e le f t fo r m t h e t o w n s h ip t o

t h e d a ir y f a r m i t s e l f a r o u n d t e n a n d w e w e r e th e r e f o r a l o n g ti m e .
A l th o u g h I d o n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly f o r h o w lo n g b u t w e w e r e th e r e f o r
q u i te a w h il e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D id y o u t a l k t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t , d i d y o u
10

t a lk t o a n y o f t h e e m p l o y e e s ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

T h a t is c o r r e c t w e d id .

We

e v e n s p o k e t o t h e g u y w h o w a s o p e r a ti n g t h e tr a c t o r a n d w e a l s o
wanted to know how much were they earning.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And who was engaging the employees in
t h e s e d is c u s s i o n s ?

W a s i t M r M a i m a n e o r w a s e v e r y b o d y t a lk i n g t o

w h o e v e r th e y c o u l d fi n d ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I:

Okay what happened is Mr

M a i m a n e a s k e d m e t o c o m e w i t h h i m a n d w h e n h e is e n g a g i n g s o m e o n e
h e w i ll th e n a s k m e t o c o m m e n t a b o u t t h a t o r a s k q u e s ti o n s .
20

So I

w o u ld g e t t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o a s k q u e s ti o n s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I see.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e – w e h a v e g o n e p a s t fi v e o ’c l o c k .

Yo u r le a r n e d

fr i e n d s h a v e n o t h e l p e d y o u w it h t e l li n g y o u t h e t i m e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e h a d p la n n e d t o s t o p a t fiv e . S o w e a r e g o i n g t o

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s t o p n o w. I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t M r D h l a m i n i ’s a v a i l a b le t o c o m e b a c k
t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g . L e t u s c o n f ir m t h a t ?
M R E P H R A I M M A K H O S I N O D H L A M I N I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

S o w e w i ll a d j o u r n n o w a n d

t o m o r r o w d o w e s t a r t a t t e n o r w o u l d y o u li k e u s to s t a r t a li t tl e e a r li e r ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A li t tl e e a r li e r p l e a s e C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld h e l p .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t n in e th e n t o m o r r o w.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t n i n e t o m o r r o w. O k a y w e w i ll
a d j o u r n a n d to m o r r o w w e w il l s ta r t a t h a lf p a s t n in e . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 4 J U LY 2 0 1 9

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