C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

22 JANUARY 2020

D AY 2 0 3

20

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 22 JANUARY 2020
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s W e n tz e l , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I a m r e a d y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s s ta r t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

C h a ir a t th e c o n c l u s io n o f th e

e v i d e n c e y e s te r d a y w e h a d d e a lt w it h t h e d i a g r a m T S W 1 9 o n p a g e 1 9 5 8
a n d th e c o n tr a c ts b e t w e e n I n t a k a a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d i ti o n a l
10

A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t . W e a r e n o w g o i n g t o t u r n t o d e a l w i th
t h e c o n tr a c ts b e t w e e n In t a k a a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a lt h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t s t a r ts fr o m w h a t p a g e i n t h e a ff id a v i t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir it s t a r t s fr o m p a g e 4 2 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B u t fo r n o w I a m g o i n g t o n o t fo ll o w t h e

a ffi d a v i t e x a c tl y a n d s h o w y o u s o m e d o c u m e n ts th a t a r e in t h e b u n d le s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W h ic h E x h i b i t m u s t I l o o k a t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ex h i b it …
CHAIRPERSON: A or RR4a?
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: RR4b.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i n p a r t ic u l a r A n n e x u r e T S W 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t p a g e is it o n ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 678.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n C h a i r t h is s to r y s t a r ts …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A m I t h e o n ly o n e fe e li n g h o t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I – I a m a ls o f e e l in g h o t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I f th e – s o m e b o d y c o u l d p u t o n th e a ir

c o n d i ti o n e r b u t n o t t o o m u c h . Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir th e s t o r y w i ll s t a r t a s y o u w i ll s e e b y

r e fe r e n c e b y Mr W h it e a t p a g e 7 0 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u – d o y o u w a n t m e to g o t o 7 0 7 ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s p le a s e C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w M r W h it e t h e d o c u m e n t I h a v e r e f e r r e d

t h e C h a ir to A n n e x u r e T S W 8 w h a t is t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
M R W H I T E: C h a ir t h a t w a s t h e r e p o r t t h a t I p r e p a r e d th a t s u m m a r is e d
t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n a n d t h e e v i d e n c e a v a il a b l e r e l a ti n g t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t
o f t w o Wa t e r P u r i fi c a t io n P l a n t s b y th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th i n
K w a Z u l u N a ta l f o r t h e A p p e ls b o s c h a n d R i e tv le i H o s p i t a ls .

S o C h a ir

t h is r e p o r t s u m m a r i s e s t h e ju s ti fi c a t io n t h a t th e D e p a r t m e n t c a m e u p
w i t h in t e r n a ll y t o m a k e th e p r o c u r e m e n t .

T h e j u s t if ic a ti o n f o r n o t

f o ll o w i n g a n o r m a l t e n d e r p r o c e d u r e a n d t h e n h o w th e r e w a s c o v e r
20

q u o t e s fr o m I n t a k a a n d t w o e n t i ti e s r e l a te d t o t h e m a n d t h a t th e
D e p a r t m e n t u l ti m a t e l y p u r c h a s e d t h e g o o d s a t a s i g n i f ic a n t ly i n fl a t e d
price.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t to m a k e s u r e t h a t o n th e r e c o r d i t i s c le a r. T h e
r e p o r t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t i s t h e o n e m a r k e d T S W 8 a n d s ta r t s a t p a g e
678, is that right?

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: But we are now at 707?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I a ls o c o n f ir m I a m th e a u t h o r o f t h a t r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e th e a u t h o r o f th a t r e p o r t y e s . A n d y o u s t a n d
b y i ts c o n t e n ts ?
M R W H I T E : I d o C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d Mr W h it e a g a i n a r e t h e r e f e r e n c e s in t h e
r ig h t h a n d c o l u m n t h e r e f e r e n c e s to t h e h a r d c o p i e s o f t h e a c t u a l
d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g to in y o u r r e p o r t ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d y o u s a y t h a t th e r e w e r e t w o it e m s t h a t

w e r e p u r c h a s e d b y t h e K w a Zu l u N a t a l o f H e a lt h . T h e o n e w a s a W a t e r
P u r i fic a ti o n P la n t a n d h o w m a n y o f th o s e w e r e p u r c h a s e d ?
M R W H I T E : T h e r e w e r e tw o C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s t h e v a l u e o f th a t c o n t r a c t ?
20

M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t w a s R 9 . 9 mi ll i o n C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e t h e y u n d e r th e o n e a n d th e s a m e c o n tr a c t?
MR WHITE: Correct Chair it was one procurement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And what was the colloquial name used to

r e fe r t o th o s e p l a n t s b y I n ta k a ?

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
MR WHITE:

C h a i r I n t a k a c a ll s t h e m a W a ta k a .

S o e ff e c ti v e ly i t is a

c o m b in a ti o n o f t h e w o r d w a te r a n d I n ta k a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n w h a t w a s t h e o t h e r i t e m th a t w a s

purchased?
M R W H I T E:

C h a ir t h a t w a s th e O x y g e n P u r i fic a ti o n P l a n t s w h ic h w a s

p a r t o f a s e p a r a t e p r o c e s s w h e r e In t a k a p r o v i d e d p l a n ts th a t w o u l d
g e n e r a te o x y g e n o n s i t e a t h o s p i ta ls o r c li n i c s s o t h e r e w o u l d b e n o
n e e d f o r i t t o b e b o u g h t in c y l in d e r s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

And how m any of those plants were

purchased?
M R W H I T E: C h a ir t h e y w e r e i n s ta ll e d a t a n u m b e r o f h o s p i t a ls o n a –
o n a p h a s e d i m p le m e n t a ti o n . Th e u l ti m a t e p l a n w a s t o i n s t a l l t h e m a t
all hospitals in KZN.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s t h e v a l u e o f th a t c o n t r a c t ?
M R W H I T E: C h a ir t h a t c o n tr a c t w a s in – w a s i n t h e t e n s o f m il li o n s o f
r a n d s b u t t h e w a y t h e c o n tr a c t w a s s tr u c t u r e d w a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t
w o u ld p a y f o r t h e o x y g e n p r o v i d e d r a t h e r t h a n f o r t h e p l a n ts . S o t h e –
I n t a k a w o u l d in s t a ll a p la n t a n d t h e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t g o i n g f o r w a r d
w o u ld t h e n p a y f o r t h e o x y g e n t h a t t h a t p l a n t g e n e r a t e s .

20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A t a p r i c e p e r li t r e f o r o x y g e n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t w o u l d In t a k a g e t f o r m a k i n g i ts e q u i p m e n t

t h e p l a n t a v a il a b l e t o th e h o s p i ta l – t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t?
M R W H I T E : E ff e c ti v e ly t h e h o s p i ta l w o u l d b u y t h e o u t p u t o f t h e p l a n t .
S o i n s t e a d o f a s u p p l ie r g e n e r a ti n g o x y g e n , p u t t in g i t i n a c y li n d e r a n d
p r o v i d in g a c y li n d e r t h e y n o w p u t u p a s m a ll p l a n t a t t h e h o s p i t a l a n d

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t h e o u t p u t o f th a t p l a n t i s t h e n p u r c h a s e d b y th e h o s p i ta l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e – t h e p l a n t r e m a i n e d th e p r o p e r ty o f I n t a k a ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I g u e s s th a t i n th e D e p a r t m e n t p a y i n g f o r t h e

o x y g e n w h a t e v e r p r ic e w a s a g r e e d w o u l d h a v e ta k e n i n to a c c o u n t t h a t
t h e D e p a r t m e n t d id n o t b u y th e p l a n t a s s u c h .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t In t a k a ’s p l a n t w a s b e i n g u s e d fo r t h e b e n e fi t o f –
of the Department?
10

M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h e r e w a s a p r ic e a g r e e d p e r li tr e o f

o x y g e n u s e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f is s u e s a r o u n d t h e
p r i c i n g – w a s s e t . B e c a u s e o b v io u s ly I n t a k a d i d n o t w a n t t o p r o v i d e a
p l a n t if t h e h o s p i t a l b o u g h t t e n l i tr e s . Th e y n e e d e d t o b u y 1 0 0 0 0 l i tr e s
a m o n t h f o r i t to b e v ia b le fo r I n ta k a . S o – a n d I w i ll c o m e to i t l a t e r.
T h e r e is i s s u e s w i th in t h e o ff ic i a ls i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t w h e r e t h e y
p u s h e d b a c k o n th e – i n th e n e g o ti a ti o n s o n th e c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e t h e
20

m i n i m u m a m o u n ts In t a k a w a n te d t o s u p p l y a t s o m e o f t h e h o s p i t a l s w a s
in e x c e s s o f w h a t t h e h o s p it a ls h a d p r e v io u s ly b e e n u s i n g .

S o th e y

w o u ld n o w b e p a y i n g a t a m i n i m u m f o r o x y g e n t h e y d i d n o t u s e .

So

t h a t b e c a m e a – a f i n a n c ia l i m p a c t to t h e p r e j u d ic e o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t i f
t h e y w e n t w i t h th is s u p p ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o e ffe c tiv e ly t h e y w o u l d b u y o x y g e n th a t t h e y c o u l d

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
n o t ju s t i fy b u y i n g ?
MR WHITE: Correct Chair and there was not a way to store it.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

S o i f y o u p a i d f o r 1 0 0 0 0 l i t r e s a n d y o u o n ly u s e d 8 th e

o th e r 2 0 0 0 t h e y j u s t d is a p p e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w e r e t h e o x y g e n g e n e r a ti n g p la n ts
called by Intaka?
MR WHITE: An Oxintaka.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O x i n ta k a .

R i g h t.

S o w e a r e g o in g to n o w

s t a r t f ir s t w i th t h e Wa t a k a ’s t h a t w e r e p u r c h a s e d a n d I w o u ld l ik e t o
r e fe r y o u o n p a g e 7 0 7 a g a in s t p a r a g r a p h 9 . 0 4 2 a r e p o r t fr o m a S o w e ta n
N e w s p a p e r d a te d Fr id a y t h e 2 2 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 0 6 . C o u ld y o u …
CHAIRPERSON: What was that page?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is 7 0 7 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h s til l 7 0 7 ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n th a t ?
20

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h a t – i t w a s a n a r ti c le i n th e S o w e ta n o n th e 2 2
S e p te m b e r 2 0 0 6 . T h e t it l e o f th e a r ti c l e w a s M u d d y W a t e r N o t o n . A n d
t h e r e w a s a q u o t e in t h a t a r ti c l e fr o m t h e s p o k e s m a n fo r t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th i n K w a Zu lu N a ta l M r L e o n M b a n g w a a n d h e
s t a te d a n d h e s a id :
“ T h e D e p a r t m e n t h a d n o t h e a r d a b o u t t h e h o s p i t a l ’s

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
p l ig h t . A s th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h i t is n o t o u r
m a n d a t e t o d e l iv e r w a t e r s e r v ic e s b u t w e w i ll c o n t a c t
t h e a p p r o p r i a t e s t a k e h o l d e r. W e d o n o t w a n t t o s e e
p a t ie n ts d r i n k i n g d i r t y w a t e r. ”
C h a ir t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON:

What kind of answer is that?

Yo u a r e r u n n i n g a

h o s p i ta l b u t y o u d o n o t t h i n k i t is y o u r r e s p o n s i b i li ty to m a k e s u r e th e
h o s p i ta l h a s g o t w a te r ?
M R W H I T E: S o C h a i r I th in k t h e – w h a t h e w a s tr y in g to s a y is t h a t t h e
10

– t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r t h e s u p p ly o f w a t e r in t h e a r e a is t h e l o c a l
m u n i c i p a li t y ’s r e s p o n s ib il i ty ; i t i s n o t t h e D e p a r t m e n t – b e c a u s e th e
w a t e r t h a t w a s c o m in g to t h e h o s p i t a l w a s th e s a m e w a t e r t h a t w a s
going to the town.
CHAIRPERSON: But he was saying they were not aware that there was
a p r o b l e m a b o u t w a t e r i n th e h o s p i ta l .
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir. C h a ir i f o n e – a n d i f w e g o t h r o u g h t h e

d o c u m e n ts t h e is s u e w i t h – t h a t u l ti m a t e l y h a p p e n e d w i t h t h a t h o s p i t a l
is th e w a t e r w a s d i s c o l o u r e d .

I t w a s n o t c o n t a m in a t e d , it w a s

d is c o l o u r e d . S o t h a t is w h y t h e …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S a i d i t w a s d ir ty w a t e r.
M R W H I T E : J a s o th e – t h e – u l ti m a t e ly t h e t e s ti n g t h a t w a s d o n e o f
t h e w a t e r fo u n d o u t t h a t i t w a s p e r f e c tl y s a fe t o d r in k . I t w a s j u s t a b i t
c lo u d y.

S o i t w a s n o t a c tu a l ly c o n ta m i n a t e d it w a s j u s t c l o u d y w h ic h

g a v e p e o p le t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w i th i t. B u t
C h a ir th is w a s u s e d b y o ffi c i a l s i n th e D e p a r t m e n t p a r ti c u l a r ly t h e H e a d

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t a t t h e t i m e , D o c t o r N y e m b e z i t o n o w fi n d a r e a s o n to
a p p o i n t I n ta k a w i th o u t f o l lo w i n g a n o r m a l te n d e r p r o c e s s .

Because

t h e y a r e n o w s a y i n g t h e r e is a n u r g e n c y. B e c a u s e t h is a r t ic le w a s o n e
o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t th e y u s e d a s a r e fe r e n c e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w y o u r e fe r t o t h e f a c t s th a t i t tu r n e d o u t

t h a t th e w a t e r w a s n o t c o n t a m i n a t e d . W i t h r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t c o u l d y o u
please

deal

with

paragraph

9.043

the

K w a Z u lu

N a ta l

Health

Memorandum dated the 29 September 2006?
M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir t h a t i n te r n a l m e m o r a n d u m o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a s
10

s e v e n d a y s a f t e r th e S o w e t a n a r t ic le . I t w a s fr o m M r K a n y e l e w h o w a s
t h e M a n a g e r E n v ir o n m e n ta l H e a l t h i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d i t w a s
addressed to Doctor Nyembezi the Head of Department.

A n d it w a s

ti t le d S it u a ti o n o f W a te r S u p p ly a t A p p e ls b o s c h a n d o t h e r R u r a l
H o s p i ta ls . It t h e n s a y s :
“ T h e o n s it e i n s p e c ti o n o f w a t e r s u p p li e s a t t h e
h o s p i ta ls o f t h e Pr o v in c i a l D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th h a v e
b e e n c a r r ie d o u t t o i d e n t i fy a c tu a l a n d p o t e n t ia l
s o u r c e s o f c o n t a m in a ti o n . P e r i o d ic s u r v e y s o f w a t e r
s u p p li e d
20

to

the

hospitals

of

th e

Provincial

D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th a r e c o n d u c t e d t o m o n i to r a n d
a s s e s s t h e m ic r o b i o l o g ic a l s a f e ty s t a t u s o f th e w a t e r
s u p p li e s ”
C h a ir h e t h e n g o e s i n to a lo t o f d e t a i l i n t h a t m e m o r a n d u m e x p l a i n in g
w h a t w a s d o n e a n d t h e t e s ts e tc e te r a . B u t th e n a t th e la s t th r e e li n e s
of the following paragraph on page 708:

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
“ I s a y o f s ig n if ic a n c e i s t h a t t h e r e s u lt s r e fl e c t
A p p e ls b o s c h c o n t a i n e d n o c h l o r o f o r m o r g a n is m s o r
F e c a l E c o li f o r m s .

T h is r e p o r t is d a t e d o n e w e e k

a ft e r t h e S o w e ta n a r tic le o f 2 2 S e p te m b e r 2 0 0 6 . ”
S o C h a i r t h e D e p a r t m e n t d i d t a k e th e is s u e s e r i o u s l y t h a t w a s
id e n t i fi e d . T h e a p p r o p r i a te p e o p l e w e n t t o t h e h o s p i t a l s , t h e y d id t h e
t e s ts a n d th e y s a id t h e r e is n o t h i n g w r o n g .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d i f y o u r e fe r t o p a r a g r a p h
5 on page 708?
10

MR WHITE:

C h a ir t h a t r e p o r t w h e r e t h e y t e s t e d t h e w a t e r a n d s a i d

t h e r e is a c t u a l ly n o c o n ta m i n a ti o n s e e ms t o h a v e b e e n ig n o r e d .

The

f a c t th a t s o m e b o d y h a d i d e n ti f ie d t h e r e w a s a ll e g e d ly a p r o b le m w a s
n o w u s e d a s t h e b a s is t o n o w p r o c u r e W a t a k a ’s fr o m I n t a k a . A n d C h a ir
t h e r e is th e n a m e m o r a n d u m d a t e d t h e 6 O c t o b e r. S o t h e 6 O c to b e r s o
a g a in a b o u t a w e e k a f t e r t h e D e p a r t m e n t it s e l f h a s c o n c l u d e d t h e r e is
n o is s u e a n d t h a t d o c u m e n t t h a t I a m r e f e r r i n g to is o n p a g e 7 0 8 a t
p a r a g r a p h 9 . 0 4 5 a n d t h a t i s a m e m o r a n d u m fr o m M r N t s h a n g a s e w h o
w a s t h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r B u d g e t a n d S u p p l y C h a in M a n a g e m e n t
a d d r e s s e d t o D o c t o r N y e m b e z i th e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t a n d i t w a s t i tl e d
20

C o n t a m in a t e d W a t e r a t R ie tv l e i a n d A p p e ls b o s c h H o s p i t a l s .

Request

f o r Ex c e p ti o n f r o m S C M p r o c e d u r e s a n d p r o c e s s . S C M d e l e g a t io n 7 0 1 .
C h a ir

this

was

request

not

to

follow

a

tender

process.

m e m o r a n d u m t h e n g o e s o n i n t h e b o d y a n d i t s t a te s :
“ A r e p o r t r e c e iv e d fr o m I n t e g r a t e d H e a l t h S e r v ic e s
C l u s t e r in a n a r ti c l e fr o m t h e S o w e t a n d a t e d 2 2

Page 10 of 212

The

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
S e p te m b e r 2 0 0 6 a t t a c h e d h e r e to a s r e f e r e n c e .
c o n ta m i n a t e d

water

at

the

The

abovementioned

in s t i tu t io n s a n d p o s e s a h e a l th r is k h a z a r d to t h e
h e a lt h – h o s p it a l e m p l o y e e s , p a ti e n t s a n d v is it o r s a t
the hospitals.

T h e q u a l i ty o f d r i n k i n g w a te r a t t h e

h o s p i ta ls h a s b e e n a s o u r c e o f g r e a t c o n c e r n . T h r e e
quotations

were

i n v i te d

by

the

S u p p ly

C h a in

M a n a g e m e n t U n i t w i t h t h e i n t e n t io n t o d e a l w i th th is
m a t t e r u r g e n tl y a s th is is a h e a l th t h r e a t e n i n g
10

s i tu a ti o n .

A p p r o v a l t o a p p o i n t t h e l o w e s t b id d e r

n a m e ly M e s s r s I n ta k a I n v e s t m e n t s a t a t o ta l c o s t
R 9 9 6 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 i n c lu d i n g VAT a n d n o h id d e n c o s ts i s
k in d ly s o u g h t i n t e r m s o f S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t
I n t e r i m D e l e g a ti o n 7 0 1 . ”
C h a ir t h a t m e m o r a n d u m c o n t a in s a n u m b e r o f s t a t e m e n t s t h a t a r e j u s t
f a ls e C h a ir. T h e d o c u m e n ts d o n o t s u p p o r t i t . S o t h e r e w a s a n a r t ic le
in th e S o w e t a n o n t h e 2 2 S e p t e m b e r t h a t is fa c t u a l ly c o r r e c t .

The

D e p a r t m e n t’s te s ti n g t h a t t h e y r e fe r t o h e r e I a c t u a ll y fo u n d th e r e w a s
n o p r o b l e m a t t h e s e t w o s p e c i fi c h o s p i t a l s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

So

the

p e o p le

who

te s t e d

b e lo n g e d

to

th e

D e p a r t m e n t?
M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I g u e s s th e y h a v e t o b e l o n g t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t .
P e o p l e w h o d e a l w i t h – t h e y w il l h a v e to b e h e a l t h p r o f e s s io n a l s .
M R W H I T E : S o t h e y – c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 11 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o t h e y c o n c l u d e d th e r e w a s n o is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h a t m e m o r a n d u m is n o w i g n o r e d a n d i t s a y s t h e r e is a n
is s u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d j u s t f o r c la r i t y w h o w a s t h a t m e m o r a n d u m
sent to?
MR WHITE:

I t w a s s e n t to D o c t o r N y e m b e z i t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t

C h a ir.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And who was …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I g u e s s th a t th e – o r e a r li e r o n t h e r e p o r t w e n t to
h i m , th e r e p o r t t h a t s a i d t h a t th e r e w a s n o c o n ta m i n a ti o n a ls o w e n t to
him?
M R W H I T E : I t i s a l a d y C h a ir b u t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I t w e n t t o h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o h j a to h e r. J a .
MR WHITE: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

20

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir s o s h e h a d a r e p o r t th a t s a i d t h e r e is n o is s u e .
She now get a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s a r e p o r t fr o m …
M R W H I T E : H e r o w n [i n d is t in c t ] /
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e r h e a l th p r o fe s s i o n a ls in h e r o w n d e p a r t m e n t ?
M R W H I T E : O w n o r g a n is a ti o n .

Page 12 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E: S h e n o w r e c e i v e d a m e m o r a n d u m t h a t c o m e s fr o m S u p p ly
C h a in M a n a g e m e n t i n h e r o w n d e p a r t m e n t t h a t – th a t s a y s th e r e is a
p r o b le m . S o s h e h a d t w o m e m o r a n d a . T h e y c o n tr a d ic t . I t a l s o s a y s i n
t h is m e m o r a n d u m t h a t th r e e q u o t a ti o n s w e r e i n v i te d b y S u p p l y C h a i n
Management.
f a ls e .

C h a ir I w i ll c o m e t o t h e d o c u m e n t s s h o r tl y b u t th a t is

B e c a u s e D o c t o r N y e m b e z i w a s p e r s o n a l ly r e s p o n s ib l e f o r

o b t a i n in g th e q u o t a t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R W H I T E:

S h e w a s a ls o p e r s o n a ll y g i v e n t h e n a m e s o f th e c o v e r –

t h e p e o p l e w h o w o u ld p r o v id e th e c o v e r q u o t e s b y D o c t o r S a v o i .

He

e m a i l e d h e r t h e a d d r e s s e s a n d I w il l r e f e r t o t h e e m a il s h o r tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E:

S a y i n g t h e s e a r e t h e o th e r t w o p e o p l e y o u m u s t a s k f o r

quotes.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E:

S o t h i s is j u s t a m e m o r a n d u m t h a t c o n t a in s a n u m b e r o f

f a ls e s t a te m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR WHITE:

T h a t h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d i n m y v i e w to t r y a n d g iv e t h e

i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t w a iv e r h a s e ff e c t iv e l y b e e n
sought.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t t h e q u o t a ti o n s th a t th e y a r e

t a lk in g a b o u t a r e n o t t h e q u o t a ti o n s t h a t D o c t o r N y e m b e z i o b t a i n e d ?
M R W H I T E : I t i s t h e s a m e o n e s C h a ir.

Page 13 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is th e s a m e o n e s ?
M R W H I T E : T h e y w e r e a t ta c h e d t o t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g – w h a t y o u s a y is n o t c o r r e c t
is th a t t h e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o o b ta i n e d t h o s e q u o ta t io n s S u p p ly C h a in
Management Unit.
MR WHITE:

No.

C h a i r th e y c a m e to D o c t o r N y e m b e z i a n d s h e th e n

g a v e i t t o S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
M R W H I T E : W h e r e a S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t ’s r e s p o n s i b ili t y is t h e y
10

g o a n d s o u r c e th e q u o t a t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t d o e s n o t p e r s o n a l ly s o u r c e th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E:

A n d t h e n j u s t h a n d a ll t h r e e t o t h e S u p p l y C h a in

Management.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E:

S o s h e i s in t e r s p e r s e d h e r s e l f in t o t h e m i d d l e o f th e

procurement process.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d . T h is is n o w p a r a g r a p h 9 .0 4 6 ?

Is t h a t r ig h t? Is t h a t w h e r e w e a r e ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t m e m o r a n d u m is i t n o t fr o m N ts h a g a s e – i t is

fr o m N ts h a g a s e is i t?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d N ts h a n g a s e is G e n e r a l M a n a g e r B u d g e t a n d

Page 14 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t a n d s h e w r i t e s t o D o c t o r N y e m b e z i w h o is
H e a d o f th e D e p a r t m e n t. T h e r e p o r t t h a t M r N t s h a n g a s e is r e f e r r in g t o
I t h e fi r s t s e n te n c e o f th e q u o t e f r o m I n t e g r a t e d H e a lt h S e r v ic e s
Cluster is it not the one that found that there was no problem?
M R W H I T E : I t i s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is th e o n e ?
M R W H I T E:

T h a t is w h y C h a ir i f o n e r e a d s t h e s e d o c u m e n ts th e y

a c t u a ll y – th is m e m o r a n d u m i s j u s t f a ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t is n o t a s i f t h e y d o n o t k n o w a b o u t it . T h e y k n o w
10

t h e r e p o r t a n d th a t s a y s t h e r e is n o p r o b l e m w i th w a t e r t h e r e a n d t h e y
a c t u a ll y r e f e r t o i t b u t t h e y g o o n t o a c t u a ll y w r i te s o m e t h i n g th a t s h o w s
t h e t o t a l d is r e g a r d o f t h e c o n t e n t s o f th a t r e p o r t ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t e x p la i n i n g o r c r it ic i s i n g it in a n y w a y to s a y it
is w r o n g a n d w h a t g r o u n d s ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d p e r h a p s C h a ir a lt h o u g h t h i s w a s o n l y

d is c o v e r e d l a t e r i f I c a n j u s t s h o w y o u w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h is s t a g e
20

b e c a u s e I t h i n k i t w il l h e l p u s c o m p l e te t h e p ic t u r e . C o u l d y o u p le a s e
r e fe r t o p a g e 7 8 4 ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y,

I am sorry Ms Wentzel.

So in the

p a r a g r a p h t h a t t a l k s a b o u t t h r e e q u o t a ti o n s t h e p o i n t y o u w e r e m a k in g
in t e r m s o f i t b e in g f a ls e w a s t h a t t h e y d i d n o t o b t a i n t h e q u o ta t i o n s
fr o m o u t s i d e r s – f r o m t h e s u p p li e r s . T h a t – t h e q u o ta t io n s w e r e g iv e n

Page 15 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
t o t h e m b y th e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e h a d g o t t h e m fr o m D o c t o r S a v o i .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t n o w I f o ll o w.
M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e th e w a y t h is i s w r i tt e n i t tr i e s t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s i t s a y s if …
M R W H I T E : I t i m p li e s t h a t S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR WHITE: Has done the process.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A n d o r d i n a r i l y t h e y w o u l d b e th e o n e s w h o
w o u ld b e e x p e c t e d t o o b t a i n t h e q u o te s , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. C o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t t h is ti m e t h a t p r o c e d u r e d i d n o t h a p p e n ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a m g o i n g t o ju s t d iv e r t t o s h o w y o u th is a n d
t h e n w e w il l g o b a c k to w h e r e w e w e r e C h a ir.

If you can go to page

784 sub paragraph 5 of your – sub paragraph 6 of your report where
20

y o u r e f e r to a n e m a il fr o m S a v o i to D o c t o r N y e m b e z i m a r k e d p e r s o n a l
dated 25 September 2006.
M R W H I T E: S o C h a i r t h a t – t h a t e m a il w h ic h w a s o b t a i n e d i n I n t a k a ’s
r e c o r d s th a t w e r e s e i z e d b y th e p o li c e . I t i s a n e m a il …
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry where does – do you say 784?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

7 8 4 s u b p a r a g r a p h 6 r e fe r r i n g to a n e m a i l

Page 16 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
fr o m …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
M R W H I T E:

S o C h a i r t h a t w h o l e p a r a g r a p h i s d e a li n g w i t h v a r i o u s

e x tr a c ts o f th e e l e c tr o n ic r e c o r d s o f – t h a t w e r e s e i z e d b y t h e p o l ic e
fr o m I n ta k a . A n d t h i s w a s o n e s u c h e m a il t h a t I r e fe r t o . I t is d a t e d t h e
2 5 S e p te m b e r 2 0 0 6 . S o C h a ir t h a t i s t h r e e d a y s a ft e r t h e S o w e t a n
a r ti c l e . S o b e tw e e n t h e S o w e t a n a r ti c l e a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t d o i n g a n
10

a s s e s s m e n t t o s a y th e r e is a c t u a l ly n o t h i n g w r o n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

In t h a t t h r e e d a y p e r i o d th e r e is a n e m a i l fr o m D o c to r

S a v o i o f I n t a k a t o D o c to r N e m b e z i t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th
and it commences:
“Dear Amigo. As agreed upon”
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry just stop there.

In the course of your

in v e s t i g a t io n d id y o u g e t t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e A m i g o ’s a n d A m i g a .

I

w o n d e r w h e t h e r A m i g a is t h e f e m a le v e r s i o n o f t h e w o r d A m i g o m a y b e
plural for male.
20

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : My L a ti n – I a m i n fl u e n c e d b y m y L a t in b a c k g r o u n d .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is i t w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: But this must be Greek or something.
MR WHITE:

I t w a s t h e fe m a l e v e r s i o n .

Amigo is male and Amiga is

female.

Page 17 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E: T h a t – b e c a u s e d e p e n d i n g o n t h e e m a il s t h a t w e r e s e n t i f
it w a s A m i g o i t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o a m a l e , if i t w a s A m i g a i t w a s
a d d r e s s e d to a fe m a l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

And what does it mean?

Did you get to understand

that?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t i t w a s j u s t a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A fr i e n d .
M R W H I T E : A fr ie n d ly w a y o f – i t i s e ff e c t i v e l y D e a r Fr i e n d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. I t h i n k w h e n w e w e r e lo o k i n g a t a n e m a i l
o r l e t t e r th a t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o c e r ta i n p e o p l e i n r e g a r d t o – o r c e r t a i n
p e o p l e i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d i t io n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t
y e s t e r d a y th e r e w a s s o m e w h e r e w h e r e i t w a s s a y i n g H e l l o A m i g o s a n d I
u n d e r s t o o d y o u t o s a y t h is is n o t th e w a y y o u w o u l d e x p e c t a p o te n ti a l
s u p p li e r t o a g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t t o b e a d d r e s s in g t h e p e o p l e t h a t
t h e y d e a l w it h .

A n d I th o u g h t th a t t h a t m i g h t b e b e c a u s e o f y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e w o r d . D i d I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c tl y ?
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir i t i s p a r t ly b e c a u s e o f t h e w o r d b u t m a i n ly

b e c a u s e o f t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e e m a il s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
MR WHITE: They are on very personal…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j a .
M R W H I T E : T h e r e is n o – it is n o t fo r m a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is m o r e p e r s o n a l t h a n b u s i n e s s . J a .
M R W H I T E : Ye s c o r r e c t C h a ir th e r e i s n o f o r m a l i n t r o d u c ti o n e tc e t e r a .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : It is l ik e j u s t w r i ti n g to a fr i e n d .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir th a t – t h a t e m a il i t t h e n s a y s :
“ A s a g r e e d u p o n p l e a s e n o te a s f o ll o w s .
1 . Wa t e r p u r i fic a ti o n s y s t e m . H e r e w it h t h e n a m e o f t h e
companies.”
A n d th e r e i s o n e c o m p a n y c a l le d W e s tp r o a n d t h e r e is th e c o n ta c t
d e t a i ls o f t h e p e o p l e a n d th e i r e m a i l a d d r e s s .
10

And then Imvusa

S t a i n le s s a n d a g a i n c o n t a c t d e t a ils o f th e p e o p le a n d t h e ir a d d r e s s e s .
A n d t h e n a t th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e :
“ A n d o u r s e lv e s I n t a k a In v e s t m e n t s fo r t h e p a t e n t e d
e q u ip m e n t Wa t a k a . D o n o t h e s i ta t e to c o n t a c t m e . ”
A n d t h e n o n th e fo ll o w i n g p a g e :
“ P l e a s e b e a r i n m in d t h a t w e h a v e W a t a k a ’s m o d e l
H W T r e a d y f o r d e li v e r y j u s t i n ti m e . ”
C h a ir t h o s e tw o e n t it i e s W e s t p r o a n d I m v u s a S t a i n l e s s a r e e n t i ti e s th a t
h a d a b u s i n e s s r e la t io n s h i p w i t h I n t a k a .

W e s t p r o is a c o m p a n y th a t

s u p p li e s p u m p s t h a t a r e u s e d i n th e m a n u f a c t u r e o f t h e W a t a k a a n d
20

I m v u s a S t a in l e s s w a s a c o m p a n y t h a t d i d t h e m a n u fa c tu r i n g o f t h e p l a n t
o n b e h a l f o f In t a k a . S o t h e y w e r e th e c o m p a n y t h a t d id s ta i n l e s s s te e l
v a ts e t c e t e r a f o r t h e w i n e i n d u s tr y in th e W e s t e r n C a p e b u t t h e y m a d e
t h e s e p l a n ts o n i n s tr u c ti o n o f I n ta k a a s w e ll . T h o s e a r e t h e t w o e n t it i e s
t h a t s u b s e q u e n tl y q u o t e d a n d p r o v i d e d q u o t e s t o D o c t o r N y e m b e z i o n
b e h a l f o f – th a t w e r e u s e d a s c o m p a r a ti v e q u o t e s t o t h e I n ta k a q u o te .

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S o y o u c a n s e e fr o m t h is e m a il D o c to r S a v o i is t e l li n g h e r w h o t o a s k .
H e r PA s u b s e q u e n t ly s e n t t h e e m a i ls r e q u e s ti n g th e m to a s k a n d t h e y
t h e n s u b m i t te d q u o t e s t h a t h a d a c t u a ll y b e e n p r e p a r e d b y I n ta k a a n d
e m a i l e d t o t h e m b y In t a k a . S o D o c t o r N y e m b e z i a n d D o c t o r S a v o i …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y c o ll a b o r a t e d .
M R W H I T E : To – t o i n fl a te t h e p r i c e s e ff e c ti v e ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
M R W H I T E : A n d C h a ir t h e s e a r e a ll in … h a ir t h e s e a r e a l l i n …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

I a m s o r r y M r W h i t e n o t o n ly t o i n fl a t e th e

p r i c e s b e c a u s e w a s t h e r e a r e q u i r e m e n t th a t t h r e e q u o t e s b e o b ta in e d ?
M R W H I T E:

W e l l C h a ir it s h o u l d h a v e g o n e to t e n d e r b e c a u s e o f t h e

amount.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h is i s a R 1 0 m il li o n p r o je c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : Yo u c a n n o t g e t q u o t e s . It n e e d s to g o t o te n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : B u t C h a ir e ff e c ti v e ly t h e y – D o c to r N y e m b e z i c r e a t e d t h e
n e e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o t – i f o n e lo o k s a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t ’s o w n
20

r e c o r d s t h e r e w a s n o t a n e e d f o r w a te r p u r if ic a ti o n p la n t . S o i t i s – a n d
t h e n i n c o n j u n c ti o n w it h D o c to r S a v o i i d e n ti fi e d w h o t o a s k t o q u o te .
C h a ir o f i n te r e s t is t h a t I m v u s a S t a i n l e s s a n d W e s tp r o a r e n o t o n th e
S u p p li e r D a t a B a s e in K w a Z u lu N a t a l .
Management even know about them?
t h e D e p a r t m e n t.

S o h o w w o u l d S u p p l y C h a in
T h e y a r e n o t e v e n s u p p l ie r s to

S o C h a ir w h e n o n e lo o k s a t a ll th e d e t a i ls i t is – i t

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b e c o m e s c l e a r th a t t h i s w a s ju s t a f a b r ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts t o
c ir c u m v e n t th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e n o – w e r e t h e r e n o s u p p li e r s i n K Z N t h a t c o u l d
p r o v i d e th is k i n d o f p r o d u c t a s f a r a s y o u m a y h a v e e s t a b lis h e d d u r in g
y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir w e – I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e n a m e o f i t b u t w e d i d

lo o k a t t h e t i m e s o a t t h e ti m e w e l o o k e d i n t h e Ye ll o w P a g e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E:
10

Te le p h o n e b o o k a n d t h e r e w e r e s o m e a d v e r t s o r p e o p l e

t h a t s a i d a n d w e p h o n e d s o m e o f t h e m a n d t h e y s a id t h e y c o u l d p r o v i d e
s o m e t h i n g s i m i la r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

I f t h e y h a d b e e n a s k e d th e y w o u l d h a v e – w o u l d h a v e

c o n s i d e r e d i t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E: I t i s n o t e x a c tl y t h e s a m e b u t s o m e th i n g th a t w o u l d d o t h e
s a m e jo b .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d o b v i o u s l y t h a t c o u l d s a v e a l o t in t e r m s o f a t
le a s t th e d e li v e r y t h a t w a s s a id t o b e a b o u t - w h a t ? Fi v e - fi v e m i ll io n
20

in r e g a r d to y e s t e r d a y ’s p l a n t f o r Tr a d it i o n a l A ff a ir s w h i c h I d o n o t k n o w
w h a t th e d e li v e r y w o u l d b e h e r e .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h e - th e p o i n t r e l a ti n g t o - i f - i f o n e c o m p a r e s t o
t h e Tr a d i t io n a l A ff a ir s s u p p ly. T h o s e w e r e b e i n g s u p p li e d a t th e s a m e
ti m e in th e s a m e s i x m o n t h s o f 2 0 0 6 .

Those were being charged at

R 2 . 2 m il li o n e a c h .

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : Th e s e a r e n o w b e i n g c h a r g e d a t R 4 .9 m il li o n e a c h . M a y b e
a s l ig h tl y d i ffe r e n t s iz e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : B u t it d o e s n o t - d o e s n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e p r ic e i s a b o u t d o u b l e ?
M R W H I T E : I t i s m o r e t h a n d o u b l e C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r e t h a n d o u b le .
MR WHITE:
10

A n d C h a ir t h e - th e r e i s a n a ff i d a v i t i n t h e d o c k e t fr o m

G r o t to a n d I m v u s a t h e t w o e n ti t ie s t h a t m a n u f a c tu r e d o n b e h a l f o f
I n t a k a a n d th e y s a id t h e d e li v e r y p r ic e to K Z N w o u ld b e a p p r o x i m a t e l y
R 7 5 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 e a c h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE: The cost.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : S o a n y th i n g a b o v e t h a t w o u ld b e a p r o f it t o I n t a k a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e y a r e n o w c h a r g i n g a p r i c e o f a l m o s t R 5 m il li o n e a c h .
S o i t is a p r o fi t o f m o r e t h a n R 4 m i ll io n p e r i t e m s u p p l ie d .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . D i d y o u g e t t o k n o w w h e t h e r th e - D r N y e m b e z i
a n d t h e p e o p l e i n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h k n e w a b o u t th e - t h e p r ic e
a n d t h e - t h e p r ic e f o r - o f t h e o n e s t h a t w e r e d e l iv e r e d t o t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d i ti o n a l H e a l th .

They - they must have known,

b e c a u s e t h e y a r e d e a l in g w i t h th e s a m e s u p p li e r a n d t h e s u p p l i e r h a d
p r o v i d e d t o t h e s a m e Pr o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n t .

Page 22 of 212

I t w a s ju s t d i ff e r e n t

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
d e p a r t m e n ts .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir, I - I d o n o t k n o w th a t t h e y - I d o n o t s e e

a n y th in g t h a t i s s p e c i fi c a ll y s a y s th e y k n e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: But - but as you say …
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t w o u l d - i t w o u ld b e s u r p r i s i n g i f t h e y d i d n o t

k n o w.
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Because …
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And who …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is - i t i s u n l ik e ly t h a t i n - in s e e k in g t o s e l l t h e s e s e l l th is to t h e m . I t is u n l ik e ly t h a t I n t a k a d i d n o t s a y w e h a v e - w e a r e
a ls o p r o v i d i n g t h e s a m e to y o u r c o ll e a g u e s i n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f
Tr a d it i o n a l A ff a ir s a n d i f - i f th e y s a i d t h a t t h e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
H e a lt h s h o u l d h a v e c h e c k e d w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d .
W h a t w e r e y o u c h a r g e d ? W h a t a r e w e b e i n g c h a r g e d a n d a ll
of that?
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir, b u t i f o n e j u s t lo o k s a t w h a t - m y v i e w

w o u ld b e D r N y e m b e z i d id n o t c a r e , b e c a u s e s h e i s p e r s o n a l ly
20

m a n i p u l a ti n g
a s s is ti n g .

th e

procurement

process

and

c ir c u m v e n t in g

it

and

S o s h e d id n o t c a r e w h a t t h e p r i c e w a s , b e c a u s e s h e w a s

a lr e a d y i n s tr u m e n t a l in a s k i n g o r a s k i n g f o r q u o t a ti o n s fr o m t h e
s u p p li e r t h a t s h e w a n ts to w i n th e w o r k . S o s h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : D i d n o t c a r e a b o u t t h e p r ic e .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t p o s i ti o n d i d M r Ts h a b a l a l a h o l d in

t h e d e p a r t m e n t?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, h e h a d n o p o s i ti o n in th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h ,
b u t h e w a s th e - t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a i d Mr Ts h a b a l a l a ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o h e w a s t h e H e a d o f t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y C h a i r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R W H I T E : B u t w e w i ll s h o w w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e O x i n t a k a s h o w h e
h a d s o m e i n v o lv e m e n t in t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s t h e r e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u t w e w il l d e a l w i th th a t i n - i n d u e c o u r s e .
Thank you.

N o w i f y o u d o n o t m i n d if w e c a n g o b a c k t o th is

memorandum on page 7-0-8.

6 O c to b e r 2 0 0 6 m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h

r e q u e s ts a n e x e m p ti o n fr o m S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s
e s s e n ti a l ly a n e x e m p ti o n t o g o o u t t o t e n d e r.
N o w w h a t w a s t h e b a s is o f t h a t e x e m p t io n ?

What was used

a s th e r e a s o n ?
M R W H I T E : T h e u r g e n c y C h a ir.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Urgency and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A r e w e b a c k a t 7 - 0 - 8 ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 7 - 0 - 8 . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d o n p a g e 7 - 0 - 9 a t t h e to p p a r a g r a p h

9 .0 - 4 - 7 w h o w a s t h e m e m o r a n d u m s ig n e d b y a n d w h o w e r e t h o s e - w h a t

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p o s i ti o n s d i d th o s e p e o p l e h o ld ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, M r S h e n g a z i w a s t h e H e a d o f t h e S u p p l y C h a in
M a n a g e m e n t a n d H e a l t h . S o h e w a s th e p r e p a r e r o f - o f t h e d o c u m e n t .
I t w a s t h e n r e c o m m e n d e d b y Mr B u t h e l e z i t h e C h ie f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r i n
the

Department

of

Health

and

it

was

u l t i m a te ly

approved

by

D r N y e m b e z i t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d a t t a c h e d to t h is m e m o r a n d u m w e r e th r e e
quotations which you then deal with on page 7-0-9 from paragraphs
9 .0 - 4 - 9 . I f y o u c a n ju s t d e a l w i th t h a t ? W e b a s ic a l ly to u c h e d o n i t .
10

MR WHITE:

S o C h a i r t h a t i s j u s t th e - t h e p r o o f t h a t w e o b t a i n e d

s h o w i n g fr o m t h e e m a i ls a n d t h e - a n d th e c o m p u t e r s t h a t w e r e - w e r e
imaged.

H o w t h e q u o t a ti o n s g o t t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th a n d t h e

f a c t t h a t t h e p e r s o n t h a t w a s d o i n g th is o n th e i n s tr u c t io n o f
D r N y e m b e z i w a s h e r p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t a n d t h e e m a il s w e r e - w e r e
b e i n g s e n t f r o m a n d b e i n g r e c e iv e d b y h e r p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t o n - o n
t h e in s t r u c t i o n o f D r N y e m b e z i .
S o C h a ir th a t j u s t s h o w s t h a t t h e - t h e q u o t e - th e r e q u e s t f o r
q u o t a t i o n s a n d th e r e c e i p t t h e r e f o r e d i d n o t o r ig i n a t e w it h S u p p ly C h a i n
M a n a g e m e n t , b u t it w a s a ll d o n e o u t o f t h e o ffi c e o f t h e H e a d o f
20

D e p a r t m e n t a n d in C h a ir i n s u p p o r t o f t h a t t h e r e is - t h e r e i s e m a il s t h e q u o t a ti o n s t h a t a r e a t t a c h e d t o th e e m a ils a r e t h e s a m e o n e s t h a t
e n d e d u p b e i n g a t ta c h e d t o th e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s th e n s u b m i t t e d
f o r a p p r o v a l . S o t h a t - t h a t is j u s t t h e d e t a il to s u p p o r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h e c o n c l u s io n C h a ir.

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w t h r e e d a y s a ft e r t h is m e m o r a n d u m t h e r e
is

a

l e tt e r

fr o m

the

K w a Zu l u - N a t a l

H e a l th

Department

dated

9 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 6 r e f e r r e d to - b y y o u in y o u r r e p o r t o n p a g e 7 - 4 - 2 a n d
p a r a g r a p h 9 .0 - 5 - 8 .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r t h a t is j u s t th e w a y I h a v e s tr u c t u r e d t h is r e p o r t I
h a v e j u s t in a c h r o n o l o g ic a l o r d e r p u t a ll t h e - a l l th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
S o a g a i n th is is j u s t t h r e e d a y s l a t e r a d e c is io n is m a d e a n d i t is n o w
s e n t t o I n ta k a fo r t h e a t t e n ti o n o f D r G a s t ó n S a v o i a n d a t 9 .0 - 5 - 9 t h e
10

c o n te n t o f t h a t l e t te r s a y s :
“I

have

pleasure

department

has

in

a d v is i n g

awarded

the

you

above

that

the

m e n ti o n e d

q u o t a t i o n t o y o u r o r g a n is a ti o n a t a t o t a l c o s t o f
R 9 9 6 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 i n c l u d i n g VAT. ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w a f t e r th e a w a r d o f t h e c o n t r a c t - I a m

r e fe r r i n g y o u t o p a g e 7 - 1 - 5 p a r a g r a p h 9 . 0 - 6 - 8 . W h a t t h e n h a p p e n s o n
1 9 O c to b e r 2 0 0 6 ? A f e w w e e k s l a t e r.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, th e r e is a fu r t h e r r e p o r t p r e p a r e d b y th e - b y th e
20

E n v ir o n m e n t a l H e a l t h D e p a r t m e n t w i th i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th
r e l a ti n g t o t h e q u a l i ty o f w a te r a t th e v a r io u s h o s p i t a l s .

So they had

o b v i o u s l y ta k e n t h e a l le g a ti o n s e r i o u s ly a n d t h e y h a d d o n e fu r t h e r
t e s ti n g .
T h i s is a g a i n p r e p a r e d b y M r K a n e l e a n d a d d r e s s e d t o
Dr Nyembezi and …

Page 26 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON: And where - where is that?
M R W H I T E : O n p a g e 7 - 1 - 5 C h a ir a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R W H I T E : P a r a g r a p h 9 .0 - 6 - 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R W H I T E : S o t h a t is t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f 1 9 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 6 a n d C h a ir
t h a t l is ts a l l t h e h e a l t h i n s ti t u ti o n s w i t h i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l h o s p i t a ls a n d
c li n i c s a n d s u m m a r is e s t h e r e s u lt s o f t h e t e s t , b u t w h e r e t h e y w e r e
n e g a tiv e - b u t th e r e i s n o m e n ti o n o f R ie t v le i H o s p i ta l o r A p p e ls b o s c h
10

H o s p i ta l , b e c a u s e t h e ir t e s ti n g w a s t h e r e w a s n o i s s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e y - t h e y h a d te s t e d i t a n d t h e y fo u n d t h a t
t h e r e w a s n o p r o b le m .
MR WHITE: Was no problem.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir - s o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is s e n t t o t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t a g a i n ?
MR WHITE: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s w e ll . J a .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

S o t h e r e i s n o w t w o r e p o r ts t o t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t

t h a t s a y s t h a t t h o s e t w o s p e c i fi c h o s p i t a l s t h e r e i s n o i s s u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w a s it in r e s p e c t o f th o s e tw o h o s p i ta ls

t h a t th e w a t e r p u r i fi c a t io n p l a n t s w e r e b o u g h t ?

Page 27 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - s o t h e o n e h o s p i ta l is A p p e ls b o s c h .

Th e o t h e r

one is?
M R W H I T E : R i e tv l e i , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Rietvlei.

J a a n d t h e f in d i n g o f M r K a n e l e a n d h is

t e a m is t h e s a m e in r e g a r d t o b o t h ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. H m . W e ll m a y b e y o u w il l a d d r e s s th is a t
a l a te r s ta g e , b u t I w o u l d lik e t o k n o w n o w. D id y o u c o m e a c r o s s a n y
10

d o c u m e n t w h e r e a n y b o d y w i th in t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th in c l u d i n g
D r N y e m b e z i s o u g h t to ju s ti fy t h e ir d e c is io n o r h e r d e c is i o n o r th e i r
d e c is i o n to b u y t h e s e - to p l a c e t h e s e o r d e r s in r e g a r d to th e t w o
h o s p i ta ls d e s p it e t h e f a c t t h a t th e r e w a s a h e a l th - t h e r e w a s a r e p o r t
b y h e a lt h p r o f e s s i o n a ls w i t h i n th e d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h s a i d th e r e w a s n o
p r o b le m ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir. T h e r e w a s n o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o .
MR WHITE: No.
CHAIRPERSON: They do not deal with it anywhere.

20

M R W H I T E : C h a ir, n o n e o f th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t I s a w a n d w e lo o k e d a t
everything we could …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : F in d r e l a ti n g t o t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: Explained …

Page 28 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W h y t h e y w o u l d s ti ll …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : G o fo r w a r d w i t h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

E v e n a l t h o u g h th e r e a r e th e s e r e p o r t s s a y in g t h e r e is n o

is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I k n o w th a t y o u s a i d y e s t e r d a y in r e g a r d t o o r w a s i t t h e d a y b e fo r e y e s t e r d a y - i n r e g a r d t o o n e o f t h e p r o j e c ts
10

that

you

i n v e s ti g a t e d .

I

th i n k

in

regard

to

Mr Panday

and

C o l o n e l M a d h o e t h a t y o u d i d n o t s p e a k t o p e o p le w h o w e r e o r w h o
s e e m e d to b e i m p lic a t e d , b e c a u s e i n - th e p o li c e w e r e in c h a r g e o f t h a t
in v e s t i g a t io n a n d y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s g o in g t o b e a
s t a g e la t e r o n w h e n th e p o li c e c o u l d a p p r o a c h t h e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n s
f o r w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n ts .
I n r e g a r d t o th is o n e d id y o u n e v e r s p e a k t o a n y o n e w h o w a s
i m p l ic a t e d s u c h a s D r N y e m b e z i?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir, th is m a t t e r p r o c e e d e d r i g h t u p t o t h e s ta g e

w h e r e i t h a d tr ia l d a t e s i n th e H i g h C o u r t .
20

S o a ll t h e s e p e o p le h a d

b e e n a r r e s te d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n ts o b t a i n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

M o s t o f t h e w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t s t h e y - t h e y d e c li n e d t o

g iv e - g i v e a v e r s io n .

Page 29 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : To p u t u p a v e r s i o n ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d - a n d s in c e t h e n y o u a r e n o t a w a r e o f a n y

v e r s i o n t h a t s o m e b o d y l ik e D r N y e m b e z i m a y h a v e p u t u p f o r o n e
r e a s o n o r a n o th e r ?
M R W H I T E : I d o n o t k n o w o f - o f a n y v e r s i o n t h a t s h e d i d p u t u p C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Now you have said in your report
t h a t a f t e r t h e a u t h o r i s a t io n h a d b e e n g r a n t e d in O c to b e r 2 0 0 6 a n u m b e r
10

o f c o n c e r n s w e r e r a is e d .

What were those concerns and what was -

b e f o r e - o k a y ? L e t u s fir s t d e a l w i t h w h a t w e r e t h o s e c o n c e r n s ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, i t w a s a s i m i l a r s i t u a t io n to w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h
L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s .

E n ti t ie s t h a t w h e r e t h e s e

w a t e r p u r if ic a ti o n p l a n t s w e r e t o b e in s t a l le d h a d n o t b e e n p r o p e r ly
c o n s u l t e d i n t h e p r o c e s s . S o w h e n t h e y s u d d e n ly w e r e t o l d h e r e is a n
o r d e r t h i s is t o b e i n s t a l le d a t y o u r h o s p i ta l.
T h e y t h e n b e c a m e a lo t o f t o i n g a n d f r o i n g b e t w e e n t h e
t e c h n ic a l p e o p l e i n t h o s e - w i th in t h e d e p a r t m e n t a s w e l l a s t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic W o r k s , b e c a u s e e ff e c ti v e ly w h a t w a s p r o p o s e d
20

w a s t h a t t h e m u n ic i p a l s u p p ly o f w a t e r t o th e h o s p i t a l b e d i v e r t e d
t h r o u g h th is w a te r p u r i fic a ti o n p l a n t a n d t h e n c o n ti n u e t o t h e h o s p i ta l
a n d o ffic i a ls fr o m P u b lic W o r k s s t a r t e d t o g e t in v o lv e d a n d s a id w e l l.
We are responsible for the - for the pipes, but as soon as you
n o w d iv e r t i t t o s o m e t h i n g e l s e w e a r e n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h a t m e e t s o u r
s t a n d a r d s a n d a s a r e s u l t t h e r e w a s a l o t o f p u s h b a c k fr o m v a r io u s

Page 30 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
in d i v i d u a ls a n d - a n d s o i t j u s t l e d t o m o n t h s o f d e l a y. C h a ir, w h a t w a s
in t e r e s ti n g i s t h a t I n e v e r s a w a n y f u r t h e r r e p o r t s to s a y i n t h o s e
m o n th s o f d e l a y th e r e w a s a p r o b le m w i th t h e w a te r.
T h e r e w e r e n o f u r th e r t h i n g s s a y i n g p e o p l e a r e - a r e g e t t in g
s ic k a s a r e s u l t o f t h e w a t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e f u n d a m e n ta l p o i n t is t h a t t h e r e w a s n o n e e d
f o r t h is i n r e g a r d to t h o s e h o s p i t a ls .
M R W H I T E : B a s e d o n t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d th e p e o p l e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R W H I T E : T h a t w e r e i n t e r v ie w e d . T h a t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h a t is m y v ie w C h a ir. Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h o s e w h o s a id th e r e w a s a n e e d in th e

D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h w e r e a w a r e o f M r K a n e l e ’s r e p o r t a n d th e y d i d
n o t p u t a n y c r it ic is m o f th e c o n c l u s io n s r e a c h e d i n t h a t r e p o r t a s f a r a s
you are aware.
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

So they just went ahead.

D i d s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s

c o n tr a r y t o a r e p o r t t h a t t o y o u r k n o w l e d g e t h e y c o u l d n o t a t t a c k o n a n y
20

grounds.
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th e n i f I c a n r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 7 - 2 - 4 a t

p a r a g r a p h 9 .0 - 9 - 4 w h ic h i s a l e t t e r o f 2 2 J a n u a r y 2 0 0 7 a d d r e s s e d b y
Dr Nyembezi to Savoi.

Page 31 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a i d p a g e 7 - 1 - 4 ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 7 - 2 - 4 . S o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 7-2-4.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i t is p a r a g r a p h 9 .0 - 9 - 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir th a t - th a t i s s o m e t h r e e m o n t h s la t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
M R W H I T E : A n d i t j u s t - i t s t a t e s - i t is a b o u t th e A p p e l s b o s c h H o s p i ta l
10

and it says:
“ F u r t h e r t o o u r d i s c u s s io n s r e g a r d i n g t h e d e l a y s
a n d th e i n s t a l la t io n o f t h e W a ta k a w a t e r p u r i fi e r a t
A p p e ls b o s c h H o s p i t a l .

I t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s fr o m H e a l t h , W o r k s a n d I n ta k a m e t
at Appelsbosch on 28 September 2006 and decided
o n w h e r e t h e p l a n t s h o u l d b e in s t a ll e d .

Please

p r o c e e d w i t h i n s ta ll a ti o n a s a g r e e d a t t h e m e e ti n g . ”
S o i t i s s t il l n o t i n s ta ll e d a n d C h a ir t h a t a n d I s a y i t i n t h e
f o ll o w i n g p a r a g r a p h a t 9 .0 - 9 - 5 t h a t .
20

“On

23 March 2007

Dr Nyembezi

advising

Intaka
of

sent
the

a

le t t e r

i n s t a l la ti o n

to
and

c o m m i s s io n i n g w a s c o m p l e t i n g . ”
S o C h a ir, e ff e c ti v e ly i t t o o k s o m e f iv e m o n th s t o a c t u a lly
in s t a l l th e s e p l a n t s a n d fr o m w h a t I c o u ld s e e t h e r e w a s n o f u r th e r
r e p o r t s o f a n y n e g a ti v e p u b lic i ty a r o u n d p e o p le g e t ti n g s ic k o r a n y t h i n g

Page 32 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
e ls e a s a r e s u l t o f t h e w a t e r a n d C h a ir t h e i n te r e s t in g f a c t i s t h a t s a m e
w a t e r i s t h e w a t e r th a t s u p p li e s th e to w n s .
S o i t w o u l d n o t j u s t b e a - a h o s p i t a l is s u e .

It would be a

w h o le c o m m u n i ty i s s u e i f t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w it h th e w a t e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O k a y.

M r W h i te , i f w e c a n t h e n g o t o p a g e

7-7-8 and there you deal …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To w h a t p a g e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 7 - 7 - 8 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 30 …
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 7-7-8 - 778.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. Ye s .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a i r th a t - t h a t is j u s t w h e r e I r e fe r t o a n d I - a n d I

b r i e fl y m e n ti o n th a t t h is i s j u s t t h e - t h e d e ta il . T h is is w h e r e w e f o u n d
t h e e v i d e n c e in t h e e l e c tr o n ic r e c o r d s o f I n ta k a w h e r e th e y s e n t t h e
q u o t e s t h a t w e r e t o b e u s e d - t o b e s u b m i t te d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
H e a lt h b y - b y W e s t - W e s t p r o a n d I m v u s a S t a i n le s s .
S o t h e y - a n d t h e w o r d in g is e x a c tly th e s a m e C h a ir. I f y o u
lo o k a t t h e a t ta c h m e n t to th e e m a i l t h a t w a s s e n t .

It just was not on

t h e s e r e s p e c ti v e e n t i ti e s le t t e r h e a d s . S o o n c e t h e s e e n ti ti e s r e c e iv e d
20

it t h e y p l a c e d i t o n t h e ir o w n l e t te r h e a d s a n d s e n t i t b a c k t o t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th , b u t th e s o u r c e o f t h e c o n t e n t a n d th e p r i c e c a m e
fr o m I n t a k a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o i f w e c a n j u s t h a v e a l o o k a t th a t fr o m

p o i n t 9 .2 - 1 - 8 . W h o w a s As h l e ig h S p e n c e r ?
M R W H I T E : S h e w a s o n e o f th e p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n ts a t In t a k a .

Page 33 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i t is d ir e c t e d to w h o ?
M R W H I T E : T h is o n e w a s t o a - a M r G e d d e s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n i t s a y s :
“ P l e a s e fi n d t h e a t t a c h e d l e t te r w i t h t h e a m e n d m e n t
c o n c e r n i n g t h e s p e ll in g o f t h e n a m e . ”
And

th e n

attached

thereto

is

a

l e t te r

d a te d

2 9 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 0 6 a d d r e s s e d to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th a t t e n t io n
S a m a n t h a C h e a d l e ti tl e d R e :

W a te r P u r i fi c a t io n P l a n t s .

T h is w o u l d

in d i c a t e th a t I n t a k a p r e p a r e d a le t t e r o n a b l a n k l e t t e r h e a d a n d s e n t i t
10

t o R o n G e d d e s a t W e s t p r o . S o w e r e t h e y r e q u ir e d t o p u t t h is l e t te r o n
t h e ir l e t te r h e a d ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d t h a t i s e x a c t ly w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d C h a ir
ju s t - S a m a n t h a C h e a d l e i s t h e p e r s o n a l a s s is t a n t t o D r N y e m b e z i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 2 o n p a g e 7 - 7 - 9 .
CHAIRPERSON:

One

second

Ms W e n tz e l .

Ye s .

Thank

you

Ms Wentzel.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

Then paragraph 2 page 7-7-9.

A s h l e i g h S p e n c e r s e n d s a s i m il a r e m a i l t o M r Mi ll e r. I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
20

M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d h e is to l d t o d o e x a c t ly th e s a m e th i n g ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w i f w e c o u l d g o to p a g e 7 - 8 - 4 . S o r r y. W e
h a v e d e a lt w i t h t h a t . T h a t - I - I w e n t a h e a d C h a ir a n d s h o w e d y o u t h e
e m a i l f r o m S a v o i t o D r N y e m b e z i i n w h i c h h e te ll s h e r e x a c tly w h ic h

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
c o m p a n i e s t o q u o t e . N o w h a v in g g iv e n th a t p ic t u r e w it h r e g a r d t o t h e
p u r c h a s e o f t h e w a t e r p u r i fic a ti o n p la n ts .
I w o u l d l ik e t o n o w d e a l w it h t h e p u r c h a s e o f th e o x y g e n
g e n e r a ti n g p l a n ts . S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d y o u lik e a - a c o m f o r t b r e a k ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

No.

W e w o u l d l ik e t o d e a l w i th s o m e t h i n g I

h a v e o m i t te d .
MR WHITE:

Sorry

C h a ir.

Just

-

just

the

one

point

that

A d v o c a t e W e n t z e l d i d n o t c o v e r w a s t h e f a c t t h a t th e t w o i n d iv id u a l s
10

that did the cover quotes.

T h e y - w h i le i n i t ia ll y w h e n th e y w e r e

in t e r v ie w e d th e y d e n i e d t h a t t h e y h a d d o n e a n y t h i n g w r o n g .

Th e y

s u b s e q u e n t ly e n te r e d in t o a p l e a b a r g a i n w i t h th e s t a t e i n t e r m s o f
S e c t io n 1 0 5 A a n d a c o p y o f t h a t p le a b a r g a in is a t T S W 2 0 .

Page

1 - 9 - 6 - 0 in B u n d l e D .
CHAIRPERSON: 1-9-6-0. Let us have a look at it and who were those
in d i v i d u a ls ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t w a s - i t w a s a M r M i ll e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d a M r R o m a n i.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In d is ti n c t) ?
MR WHITE: Romani.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
MR WHITE: Romani.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And were they the people in charge of the

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
e n t i ti e s w h o w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o s u p p ly th e s e q u o t e s ?
MR WHITE:

S o y e s C h a ir.

T h e y w e r e i n v o lv e d i n th o s e - t h o s e t w o

e n t i ti e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d t h e y s u b s e q u e n t ly w h il e in it i a l ly s a y in g - d e n y i n g th a t
a n y th in g i m p r o p e r h a d b e e n d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : O n c e a l l t h e e v i d e n c e b e c a m e a v a il a b l e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R W H I T E : T h e i r l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE:

S u g g e s te d th a t t h e y e n t e r i n to a p le a b a r g a i n w i t h t h e

s t a te w h ic h t h e y d id …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

A n d t h a t p l e a b a r g a i n r e l a te d t o b o t h th e c a s e s i n

K w a Z u l u - N a t a l a s w e ll a s th e r e w a s a n o t h e r p l e a b a r g a i n o n t h e s a m e
d a y f o r s i m il a r c a s e s in t h e N o r th e r n C a p e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d i n t e r m s o f th e - t h a t - t h a t a g r e e m e n t - p l e a
b a r g a i n - b a r g a i n in g a g r e e m e n t.
20

T h e y p l e a d e d g u i l ty to c e r t a i n

charges?
M R W H I T E : I t w a s e ffe c tiv e l y t o fr a u d C h a ir r e l a ti n g t o t h e p r o v i s i o n o f
the cover quotes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h e y - t h e y a c c e p t e d th a t t h e y p a r tic i p a t e d t h e y p la y e d a c r i m i n a l r o l e i n th e w h o le t h i n g ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . I w a n te d t o - b e fo r e w e m o v e
t o t h e n e x t t o p ic . I w a n t e d t o c o n f ir m w i th y o u th a t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is
c o r r e c t th a t t h e r e s e e ms to b e s o m e s i m i l a r i t y i n w h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t
o f H e a l th a n d D r S a v o i w e r e d o in g h e r e i n r e g a r d t o t h e s e p u r c h a s e s
w i t h w h a t M r P a n d a y w a s d o in g w i t h r e g a r d t o S A P S .
M r P a n d a y w a s s u p p ly in g S A P S w i th e n ti ti e s t h a t w e r e s a i d to
b e i n d e p e n d e n t o f h i m , b u t t h e y w e r e a c t u a ll y n o t in d e p e n d e n t o f h i m .
D r S a v o i i s s u p p ly i n g n a m e s o f e n ti ti e s to D r N y e m b e z i a n d s a y in g y o u
c a n g e t - u s f o r q u o t e s fr o m t h e m .
10

Th e d i ffe r e n c e m i g h t b e t h a t i n

r e g a r d to Mr P a n d a y ’s s c h e m e - w e ll I d o n o t k n o w i f th e P r o v in c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r d id n o t k n o w t h a t th o s e e n ti ti e s t h a t w e r e s a id t o b e
c o m p e ti n g w i th - is i t G o l d C o a s t - G o l d C o a s t .
I d o n o t k n o w i f s h e k n e w o r s h e d id n o t k n o w, b u t th e p e o p l e
w h o w e r e a t t h e S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t - C o lo n e l M a d h o e - m a y
h a v e k n o w n o r d i d k n o w t h a t t h e s e w e r e a l l e n ti t ie s l in k e d t o Mr P a n d a y
a n d i n r e g a r d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th D r N y e m b e z i p r o b a b l y k n e w,
b e c a u s e s h e g o t h e r s e l f i n v o lv e d t o g e t ti n g n a m e s o f e n ti ti e s fr o m
w h ic h t o g e t q u o te s fr o m D r S a v o i /I n t a k a w h o w a n te d t o d o b u s i n e s s
with them.

20

D o y o u s e e a n y s i m il a r i t ie s a lt h o u g h t h e y a r e n o t 1 0 0

percent?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h e y a r e - t h e y v e r y s i m il a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

I t h in k I w o u l d g o fu r th e r a n d r e m o v e t h e w o r d p r o b a b l y

k n e w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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M R W H I T E : I t h i n k o n t h e d o c u m e n ts I c a n c o m e to t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h e y
knew …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h a t t h e e n ti ti e s w e r e l in k e d o r i n o n e w a y w e r e w o r k in g
t o g e th e r. C h a ir, i n 2 0 y e a r s th is is p r o b a b ly th e c o m m o n w a y i n - th e
m o s t c o m m o n w a y i n w h ic h S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s a r e
c ir c u m v e n t e d . W h e r e e n ti t ie s c o ll u d e w i t h e a c h o t h e r t o h a v e i n f l a t e d
p r i c e s , b u t C h a ir i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s v e r y d i ffic u lt t o d o w i t h o u t t h e
in v o lv e m e n t o f a n o ffic ia l w i t h i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
S o y o u n e e d a p e r s o n i n t e r n a lly.

10

T h e G o v e r n m e n t o ff ic ia ls

a n d t h e n y o u n e e d t h e - t h e p r iv a t e s e c t o r s u p p li e r s .

They need to

c o l l u d e t o g e t h e r. T h i s p r o c e s s w i ll n o t w o r k o r t h e y w il l n o t b e a b l e t o
c ir c u m v e n t th e p r o c e d u r e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I f th e y d o n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y n e e d t o h a v e s o m e b o d y in s i d e .
MR WHITE: Correct Chair …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d - a n d C h a ir w h y t h e p e o p l e i n s i d e s h o u ld a l w a y s b e
20

a b l e t o p ic k t h is u p is i f th e y a d v e r t is e d i n t h e p r o p e r p r o c e d u r e t h e
c h a n c e s o f o n ly li n k e d e n t it i e s q u o ti n g a g a in s t e a c h o t h e r i s - i s a l m o s t
zero.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

S o th e n th e - t h e e n t it i e s o r s u p p li e r s in t h e

p r i v a t e s e c t o r n e e d s s o m e b o d y i n s id e w h o w i ll - w i ll i g n o r e t h e f a c t t h a t
h e is a w a r e th a t t h e y a r e li n k e d o r t h e y h a v e a r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th o n e

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another?
M R W H I T E : W e ll …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr W h it e , i f w e c o u l d n o w

lo o k a t y o u r r e p o r t - T S W 7 i n - I t h i n k i t i s t h e p r e v i o u s b u n d l e - B u n d l e
B at page 5-3-9.
CHAIRPERSON: D?
10

MR WHITE: B.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: B.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B fo r B e a tr ic e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B fo r B e a tr ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I th i n k i t i s m u c h b e t t e r i f …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y s o m e t h in g t o m a k e s u r e I k n o w w h e th e r i t i s
B o r D . S o B f o r B e a tr i c e o r …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B fo r b u l l .

20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Fo r b u l l f o r B e a tr ic e , b a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D fo r D u d u o r D f o r D o r i s . D fo r D e r e k . I t j u s t h e l p s
s o th a t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I l o o k a t t h e r ig h t o n e . J a . O k a y. I t i s th e s a m e o n e
we had …

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w e w e r e h a v in g .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

I thought we were in B.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
MR WHITE:

I t h i n k w e w e r e i n C in a n d n o w w e ’r e i n B .

Were we?

C h a ir i t ’s j u s t e a r l ie r o n i n B , th e s a m e fi le b u t i t’s i n B .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , ja .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O h s o r r y, s o r r y, I ’ m c o n fu s e d . S o r r y C h a ir I

a p o lo g i s e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

So what page?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Page 539.

O k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w t h is is a r e p o r t o f y o u r s d a t e d t h e 2 4 t h o f

M a y 2 0 1 0 , m a r k e d A n n e x u r e T S W 7 , c o u ld y o u p le a s e t e l l th e C h a ir,
id e n t i fy th is r e p o r t a n d e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir w h a t i t w a s a b o u t ?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir I . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

A n d c o n f ir m i t .

I a m t h e a u t h o r o f th e r e p o r t a n d s ta n d b y th e c o n t e n ts

thereof.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ja.

C h a ir t h a t n o w r e l a t e s t o t h e t e n d e r t h a t w a s a d v e r t is e d

b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a lt h r e l a t i n g t o th e p r o c u r e m e n t o f t h e
O x y n t a k a , it is t h e o x y g e n s e l f- g e n e r a ti n g u n i ts . C h a ir t h i s i n s t a n c e s is
s li g h t ly d i ff e r e n t t o th e p r e v io u s o n e s b e c a u s e i n th is in s t a n c e th e r e
w a s a t e n d e r, i t w a s a d v e r ti s e d b y o p e n t e n d e r b u t th e d i ff e r e n c e h e r e

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C h a ir is t h a t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

O x y n t a k a , th e o x y g e n g e n e r a ti n g u n i t s .

CHAIRPERSON:
M R W H I T E:

S o r r y, s o th is o n e w a s f o r b u y i n g w h a t ?

J a , t h e r e ’s W a t a k a a n d O x i n t a k a , o k a y.

S o C h a ir i n t h i s i n s ta n c e a – t h e r e w a s a te n d e r, i t w a s

a d v e r t is e d a n d v a r i o u s b i d d e r s r e s p o n d e d , b u t C h a i r th e is s u e w i t h t h i s
t e n d e r is t h a t D r S a v o i c o l lu d e d w i th D r N y a b e s i in t h e s e t ti n g o f th e
s p e c i f ic a ti o n s t h a t w e r e a d v e r ti s e d i n th e te n d e r, a n d C h a i r I r e fe r t o
v a r io u s d o c u m e n ts w h e r e t h e r e w e r e e m a i ls b a c k w a r d s a n d fo r w a r d s i n
10

t h e l e a d - u p t o t h e a d v e r t is i n g o f t h e te n d e r w h e r e D r S a v o i i n tr a c k
c h a n g e s o n t h e b i d d o c u m e n t c h a n g e d t h e s p e c i f ic a t i o n s , a d d e d t h in g s
o r d e l e te d t h in g s w h e r e h i s p r o d u c t d i d n ’ t c o m p ly w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t
o f H e a l th a n d t h a t p r o c e s s w a s a b a c k w a r d s a n d f o r w a r d p r o c e s s m o r e
t h a n o n c e t o D r N y a b e s i ’s e m a i l a d d r e s s , c u l m in a ti n g i n a b i d
s p e c i f ic a ti o n t h a t s u i te d to t h e b e s t h e c o u ld I n t a k a .
S o w h i le t h e y d i d n ’ t , th e y c o u ld n ’ t t a k e o u t a l l t h e c o m p e ti ti o n
t h e y s e t th e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s t o s u i t h is c o m p a n y to t h e p r e j u d ic e o f a l l
t h e o th e r p o t e n ti a l b i d d e r s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

20

S o t o te ll t h a t s t o r y i f w e c o u l d p le a s e s t a r t

a t p a g e 5 7 3 , a n d p a r a g r a p h 9 . 0 6 1 d e a l in g w i t h y o u s a y I a ls o l o c a t e d
a n e m a il fr o m S a v o i t o D r N y a b e s i d a t e d th e 2 7 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 6 ,
c o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir p l e a s e a b o u t t h a t e m a i l ?
M R W H I T E:

C h a ir th a t e m a il o n c e a g a i n w a s f o u n d i n th e e le c tr o n ic

r e c o r d s o f In t a k a t h a t w a s s e iz e d b y th e p o l ic e a n d t h e c o n t e n t o f t h a t
e m a i l , t h e t h ir d li n e r e a d s a s fo ll o w s :

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
“Dear Amiga
C h e c k i n g t h e d o c u m e n t w i th o u r t e c h n ic a l s t a ff i t w a s
d e t e c t e d t h a t a l o t o f t h in g s w e r e a d d e d t h a t a r e n o t
according

to

our

s p e c i fic a ti o n s ,

neither

to

ISO

10083

s p e c i f ic a ti o n s w i t h w h ic h c o m p l y. T h e r e f o r e I c l o s e d t h e d r a f t
w i t h t h e m o d i fi c a t io n s / w i t h d r a w a ls h i g h li g h t e d in r e d . ”
And

then

a t ta c h e d

to

th a t

document

C h a ir

was

the

draft

b id

s p e c i f ic a ti o n s w h e r e D r S a v o i o r th e t e c h n ic a l s t a ff w o r k i n g f o r h i m a t
I n t a k a h a d d e le t e d s o m e i t e ms a n d h a d a d d e d o t h e r i t e m s .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u d e a l w i t h t h e c h a n g e s th a t w e r e m a d e o n

page 574 from paragraphs 1 to 12.
MR WHITE:

C h a ir I j u s t – j a , I j u s t r e f e r t o t h e d i ff e r e n t p a r a g r a p h s i n

t h e b i d s p e c s th a t w e e i t h e r a d d e d o r d e le t e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e n . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

A r e t h e r e a n y p a r ti c u la r c h a n g e s t h a t h e m a d e t h a t

y o u t h in k d e s e r v e s s p e c ia l a t t e n t io n ?
MR WHITE:

C h a i r I d o n ’t – I d o n ’ t r e c a ll t h e s p e c i f ic d e t a ils b e c a u s e

it w a s te n y e a r s a g o , b u t i t w a s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , o k a y. I t h o u g h t m a y b e s o m e w h e r e e l s e in y o u r

r e p o r t y o u m a y b e d e a li n g w i th t h e m .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir t h e p o in t I w a s j u s t tr y i n g t o m a k e i s t h a t t h e r e

w e r e a l o t a n d t h a t h e is h a v i n g i n p u t p r i o r to i t b e c o mi n g p u b l ic a n d
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ye s .

A n d d o i n g t h i n g s w h e r e h i s e n t i ty d o e s n ’t c o m p l y w i t h th e

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
o r i g in a l d r a f t s p e c s , h e is n o w d e l e ti n g th e m a n d w h e r e t h e r e ’s
s o m e t h i n g e x t r a h i s e n ti t y h a s g o t h e i s p u tt i n g i t i n a s a r e q u ir e m e n t
p o t e n t i a l ly to t h e p r e j u d ic e o f a n y b i d d e r th a t d o e s n ’ t h a v e t h a t l i t tl e
e x tr a p ie c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e w a s a ll o w e d t o d o th a t , b y t h e h e a d o f

d e p a r t m e n t?
MR WHITE:

W e ll C h a ir t h a t’s w h a t t h e e m a i ls r e fl e c t a n d u l ti m a t e l y

h is c h a n g e s e n d e d u p , m o s t o f th e m , in t h e f in a l b i d s t h a t w e r e
a d v e r t is e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Mmm, mmm.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W e l l le t ’s s e e o n p a g e 5 7 5 p a r a g r a p h 9 . 0 6 3

t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t, M s M n y e b e s i , r e p li e s t o S a v o i a ls o in a n e m a il
d a t e d t h e 2 9 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 6 , c o u l d y o u e x p l a i n to t h e C h a ir w h a t
she says there?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a i r t h a t is t w o d a y s a f t e r t h e p r e v i o u s e m a il I h a v e

r e fe r r e d t o , a n d i n th e fo u r t h l in e d o w n I q u o te fr o m w h a t s h e s a y s
where she says:
“Success at last, hope you get it.”
A n d th e n a t t a c h e d t o t h a t is t h e b id s p e c if ic a ti o n w o r d d o c u m e n t w i t h
20

t h e r e v is e d s p e c i f ic a t i o n s .

A n d C h a ir t h e n d o w n t h e b o t t o m o f t h a t

p a g e a t p a r a g r a p h 9 .0 6 4 o n th e s a m e d a y D r S a v o i r e p l ie s :
“Dear Amega,
I a m s e n d in g th e r e p li e s in g r e e n . ”
S o n o w h e h a s m a d e f u r th e r c h a n g e s t o t h e r e v i s e d s p e c i f ic a t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t w h e r e a r e y o u r e a d in g fr o m a t 5 7 5 ?

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
MR WHITE:

9 .0 6 4 .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o “ D e a r A m e g a ” , j a I s e e . T h a t is a d d r e s s e d

to who?
MR WHITE:

Dr Mnyebesi.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ye s o k a y.

S o t h e s e e m a i ls a r e a c h a i n o f e m a i ls , w h e r e t h e y ’r e j u s t

r e p ly i n g b a c k w a r d s a n d f o r w a r d s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

A n d th e n p e r h a p s i f y o u c o u ld t e l l t h e C h a ir

t h e c o n c l u s i o n th a t y o u c o m e t o , r e f e r r e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h 9 .0 6 5 o n
page 576.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir r e l a ti n g t o t h e s e c h a n g e s in t h e f o u r t h li n e o f

that paragraph I state:
“ I t is c l e a r h o w e v e r t h a t I n t a k a w a s a d v is in g t h e D e p a r t m e n t
w h a t t o i n c lu d e a n d e x c lu d e i n th e b i d s p e c i fic a ti o n d o c u m e n t
f o r th e 5 2 h o s p i t a l s t e n d e r a n d t h a t t h is w a s s ti ll a n o ff ic ia l
d o c u m e n t a n d n o t a p u b l ic o n e t h a t h a d g o n e o u t t o t e n d e r
a n d th a t In t a k a th e m s e lv e s w o u ld la t e r p r o v id e a b id . ”
C h a ir it w a s a s ig n if ic a n t te n d e r, i t w a s t o s u p p l y a l l t h e o x y g e n
20

r e q u ir e m e n t s a t 5 2 h o s p i ta ls in K Z N , s o a ll th e h o s p i ta ls a n d In t a k a is
n o w – h a d o n g o i n g i n p u t in t o th e s p e c if i c a ti o n s w h ic h t h e n u l ti m a t e ly
b e c o m e t h e f i n a l s p e c i fi c a t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I m e a n I – d id y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n e v e r r e v e a l h o w

s o m e b o d y w h o s e c o m p a n y o p e r a te d fr o m t h e W e s te r n C a p e c a m e t o
e n d u p h a v in g th e k i n d o f in f lu e n c e t h a t h e s e e m s t o h a v e h a d o n t h e s e

Page 44 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
– o n s e n i o r o ffi c i a l s i n t h e s e d e p a r t m e n t s w h e r e h e w a s j u s t g e t t in g
whatever he wanted?
M R W H I T E:

C h a ir t h e in tr o d u c ti o n a p p e a r s t o h a v e c o m e v i a Mr

Ts h a b a l a l a , t h e H e a d o f Tr e a s u r y, a n d t h e n th e s e u lt i m a t e ly t h e r e w e r e
m o n i e s p a i d t o p e o p l e i n e i th e r s e n io r p o s i t io n s i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t o r
t h e M E C ’s o f t h o s e d e p a r t m e n ts .
S o C h a ir th e in f e r e n c e w o u l d h a v e t o b e d r a w n t h a t t h i s k i n d o f
r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s b e c a u s e th e r e w a s p r e s s u r e fr o m h ig h e r u p t o d o
b u s i n e s s w i t h t h e s e e n ti ti e s r e g a r d l e s s o f t h e c o s t o r t h e d e tr i m e n t t o
10

t h e D e p a r t m e n t i n w h ic h t h e s e o ff ic i a ls w o r k e d . B e c a u s e C h a i r m o s t o f
t h e s e o ffi c i a l s t h a t d i d t h e s e in c o r r e c t t h i n g s i t c o u l d n e v e r h a v e b e e n a
m is t a k e , b e c a u s e j u s t o n th e d o c u m e n ts a n d w e c a n s e e w h e n i t c o m e s
t o g e tt i n g u l t i m a te ly c o n tr a c ts s ig n e d t h e r e ’s p u s h b a c k fr o m t h e
o ffic i a ls in th e d e p a r t m e n t , th e y r e a l ly t r y n o t i m p l e m e n t w h a t ’s a c tu a lly
b e e n a w a r d e d i n t e r m s o f a t e n d e r p r o c e s s , b e c a u s e t h e y d is a g r e e a n d
it t a k e s m o n t h s a n d m o n th s fo r th e s e t h i n g s t o b e – f o r c o n tr a c ts t o b e
s ig n e d o r t h in g s to b e i n s t a l l e d b e c a u s e p e o p le l o w e r d o w n i n t h e
h i e r a r c h y d o n ’t a g r e e w i t h w h a t’s h a p p e n i n g , b u t u l t i m a t e ly t h e y g e t
overruled.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w y o u to ld m e t h a t w h e n y o u w e r e d o i n g th is

in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t t h o s e p e o p le h a d a lr e a d y b e e n a r r e s t e d a n d s o o n
and so on.

D i d y o u e v e r g e t a c h a n c e t o s p e a k t o th o s e o ff ic i a ls ,

lo w e r r a n k i n g o ffi c i a ls w h o m a y h a v e e x p e r i e n c e d w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g
a n d w e r e y o u a b le t o g e t a n i n p u t fr o m t h e m ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir a l l th e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e i n v o lv e d i n t h e p r o c e s s ,

Page 45 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
in

the

procurement,

or

the

i m p le m e n ta t io n

e tc e te r a ,

were

a ll

in t e r v ie w e d a s p a r t o f t h a t p r o c e s s a n d p r o v i d e d a ffi d a v it s t h a t w e r e
u l ti m a t e ly e i t h e r r e f e r r e d t o b y r e p o r ts a n d / o r e n d e d u p i n t h e p o lic e
d o c k e t, s o t h e ir – a n d a l o t o f t h e m a r e v e r y c r i tic a l o f t h e p r o c e s s b u t
u l ti m a t e ly t h e y w e r e ju s t p r e s s u r i s e d in t o e v e n i f t h e y r a is e d c o n c e r n s
e v e n t u a l ly th e y w e r e o v e r r u le d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o in t h i s c a s e y o u w e r e a b le t o in t e r v ie w t h e m o r

y o u r t e a m w a s a b l e to in t e r v i e w t h e m a n d a ffi d a v i t s a n d s t a t e m e n t s
w e r e o b t a in e d w h i c h a r e i n th e l e v e r a r c h f il e s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e
10

a v a i la b le t o t h e C o m m i s s io n .
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

O k a y.

A n d C h a ir th o s e i n t e r v i e w s w e r e d o n e , m o s t o f th e m i n

c o n j u n c ti o n w i th t h e in v e s t i g a t in g o ffic e r s a l lo c a t e d t o th e m a t te r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , o k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

S o a f te r th is d i d t h e

c o n tr a c t g o o u t t o t e n d e r a n d y o u s a i d w i th th e s p e c i f ic a t i o n s a s
m a n i p u l a te d b y M r S a v o i ?
M R W H I T E:
20

C o r r e c t C h a ir, th o s e s p e c i fi c a ti o n s w e r e f in a lly a p p r o v e d

b y t h e B i d S p e c i fi c a t io n C o m m i t t e e a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th o n
the 30th of November 2006.

There were – people bid for it and the

w i n n i n g b i d d e r w a s u l ti m a t e l y a d ju d ic a t e d a s b e i n g In t a k a , b u t t h e
lo s i n g b i d d e r s a n u m b e r o f t h e m t h e n a p p e a l e d a n d t h e ir a p p e a ls w e r e
o v e r r u l e d , w e r e d is m is s e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d th o s e th a t .. . [i n te r v e n e s ]

Page 46 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

T h e y d id n ’ t g o t o C o u r t ?

N o C h a i r i t w a s p a r t o f t h e i n te r n a l d e p a r t m e n t a l a p p e a ls

process.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y, a lr ig h t .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d y o u d e a l w i t h th a t a t p a g e 5 9 0 ,

paragraph 10.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is it 590?

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
MR WHITE:
10

Ye s .

S o C h a ir t h e r e I j u s t r e f e r r e d t o th e d e ta il e d . .. [ in d is ti n c t ]

b u t t h e e n ti ti e s th a t a p p e a l e d w e r e A f r o x , I n s m e d a n d M y r ia d M e d ic a l .
T h e o n ly in t e r e s ti n g a s p e c t i s t h a t C h a ir t h a t a p p e a l p r o c e s s w a s – i t i s
r u n o u t o f Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y, e ff e c ti v e l y t h e y o v e r s e e t h e a p p e a ls
process son procurement and then once that appeal process had been
c o n c l u d e d a n d e ff e c t iv e l y a d e c is io n h a d a l m o s t b e e n m a d e w e
id e n t i fi e d t h a t Mr Ts h a b a l a l a , w h o I r e f e r r e d t o y e s t e r d a y h e n o w a ls o
s e n t a n s m s t o In t a k a w h ic h I r e f e r to a t p a g e 5 9 9 a n d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ye s ?

P a r a g r a p h 9 . 9 .3 , C h a ir m a y b e t o e x p la i n w h a t t h e p e o p l e

a t I n t a k a s e e m t o h a v e h a d a – a g a i n v e r y h e l p f u l if y o u ’r e d o i n g a n
20

in v e s t i g a t io n , th e y ty p e d o u t e v e r y th in g t h e y r e c e i v e d b y s m s a n d fi le d
it , a n d e m a i ls a n d i n m a n y i n s t a n c e s t h e y p r i n t e d t h e m o u t a n d fi le d
t h e m , w h ic h w a s q u i te h e lp f u l w h e n d o in g a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n . S o t h i s w a s
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

N o t v e r y m u c h u n li k e M r P a n d a y ’s s i t u a t io n ?

C o r r e c t C h a ir, th e s e w e r e v e r y n ic e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s t o d o .

Page 47 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m u s t h a v e b e e n – y o u a r e c o m m o n t o b o t h , y o u

a r e t h e i n v e s t ig a to r f o r b o t h a n d s o m e h o w t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n is m a d e
e a s y fo r y o u .
MR WHITE:

I t d o e s n ’ t a l w a y s h a p p e n C h a ir, b u t y o u h a v e t o ta k e i t

w h e n y o u c a n g e t i t . C h a ir a n d i n t h i s s m s I j u s t s e t o u t w e f o u n d i t s o
w h e n th e y - th e d o c u m e n t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

S o m a y b e I w il l j u s t r e a d i t C h a ir, i t w il l b e e a s i e r.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MR WHITE:

W e l l d o te ll m e h o w y o u f o u n d i t a s w e l l .

J a , ja .

S o I l o c a t e d a n e m a i l i n t h e I n t a k a e l e c tr o n ic r e c o r d s

s e i z e d b y t h e S A P S f r o m A l ic ia M a r c u s t o R o a l d d e L a n g e , b o t h o f
I n t a k a . A l ic i a M a r c u s is o n e o f th e s e c r e t a r i e s a t I n t a k a a n d R o a l d d e
L a n g e i s a n e m p l o y e e i n I n ta k a .

T h e b o d y o f th e e m a il t i tl e d K Z N

c o n ta in s t h e f o ll o w i n g :
“ I e n c lo s e te x t o f a n s m s s e n t b y S i p h o Ts h a b a la la t o D r
S a v o i.

A t t a c h e d is a d o c u m e n t o n a n I n t a k a le t t e r h e a d

m a r k e d fil e n o t e , s ms s e n t b y S ip h o Ts h a b a la la t o D r S a v o i
on 24 August 2007 at 10:20.
Amigo,
20

H e a r i n g w e n t v e r y w e l l, e x p e c ti n g r e s u l ts e a r l y n e x t w e e k . ”
N o w t h a t r e l a te d t o t h e a p p e a l w h e r e t h e o t h e r, A f r o x a n d I n s m e d
e tc e t e r a a b o u t t h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t a p p e a l .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ye s .

A g a i n C h a ir j u s t n o t w h a t o n e w o u l d b e e x p e c t in g a h e a d

o f Pr o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y t o b e s e n d i n g t o a p o t e n t i a l s u p p l ie r o f s e r v ic e s

Page 48 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , ja .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d , s o r r y.

L e t ’s t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir i f I c a n j u s t c l a r i fy o n e t h i n g , o n e

word.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

In what capacity was De Lange employed by

Intaka?
10

MR WHITE:

C h a ir i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e c o r r e c t I th in k h e w a s t h e

in - h o u s e le g a l p e r s o n a t In t a k a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u .

O k a y, w e w i ll t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e

a t t w e n t y t o fiv e to t w e lv e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
REGISTRAR:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

We adjourn.

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s p r o c e e d . S w i t c h o n y o u r m ic r o p h o n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I beg your pardon. Mr White you say in your
r e p o r t t h a t d e s p i te t h e a w a r d o f t h e t e n d e r t o In t a k a t h e r e w e r e o n
o n g o i n g c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e c o n t r a c t . W h a t w e r e th o s e c o n c e r n s ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f is s u e s r a is e d b y th e –

t h e t e c h n ic a l p e o p l e i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a s w e l l a s b y t h e m e d ic a l

Page 49 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
p r o f e s s i o n a ls . S o C h a ir t h e f ir s t o n e w a s r e g a r d i n g m a i n te n a n c e . S o
t h e I n t a k a w a s g o i n g to p r o v i d e th e s e p l a n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A r e y o u t a l k in g a b o u t t h e W a ta k a o r a r e
y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e O x i n ta k a ?
M R W H I T E : T h e O x in t a k a C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O x in t a k a o k a y, a lr i g h t .
M R W H I T E : Ye s s o r e l a ti n g t o th e O x i n t a k a .
CHAIRPERSON:

I th o u g h t y o u h a d s w i tc h e d b a c k t o W a t a k a s o o k a y.

Oxintaka.
10

M R W H I T E: S o C h a i r s o t h e s e p l a n ts t h a t a r e g o i n g t o b e i n s t a l l e d a t
e a c h h o s p i ta l t o m a k e t h e o x y g e n th e w a y t h e c o n tr a c t w a s i n i t ia ll y
b e i n g d r a f te d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h s a id i t i s I n t a k a ’s r e s p o n s ib il it y
t o m a i n ta i n th e p l a n t s b e c a u s e th e d e p a r t m e n t is j u s t b u y in g t h e
output.

I t is b u y i n g t h e o x y g e n i t is n o t b u y in g t h e p l a n t .

Whereas

I n t a k a ’s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s s a i d t h e d e p a r t m e n t m u s t b e r e s p o n s ib l e fo r
t h e m a i n t e n a n c e o r m u s t p a y a m a in t e n a n c e c o n t r a c t f o r I n ta k a to
m a in t a i n . N o w o b v i o u s ly t h a t is a n o n g o i n g c o s t s o t h a t w a s o n e o f t h e
p o i n t s o f d is a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e o ff ic i a ls a n d I n ta k a w h e n i t c a m e t o
fi n a l is i n g t h e c o n tr a c t .
20

S o t h e r e w a s – it t o o k a b o u t s ix m o n t h s f o r

w h e n I n t a k a w e r e to ld y o u a p p o in t e d u n til w h e n t h e c o n tr a c t w a s
s ig n e d . S o o n e o f t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s r e l a te d to m a in t e n a n c e . T h e s e c o n d
o n e r e l a t e d t o t h e m in i m u m u s a g e .

So there was

- In t a k a w a n te d –

h a d s a i d th e m i n i m u m u s a g e f o r c e r t a i n h o s p i t a l s w a s s a y 1 0 0 0 0 li tr e s
a m o n t h , t h e d e p a r t m e n t a l o ffic ia ls s a i d w e o n ly n o r m a l ly u s e 8 , w e
c a n n o t p a y fo r 1 0 s o t h a t a l s o in d i ffe r e n t h o s p i t a l s th e r e w a s – t h a t

Page 50 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
was an issue.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 8 a s in 8 0 0 0 i n s t e a d o f 1 0 0 0 0 ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : S o I n t a k a w a n te d to b e p a id f o r 1 0 o r a n y t h in g a b o v e t h a t ,
t h e d e p a r t m e n t s a id , n o i t n e e d s t o b e 8 t h e m i n i m u m – s o t h a t l e d t o
q u i te a lo n g n e g o t ia t io n . T h e r e w a s t h e n a ls o t h e c o s t o f t h e b a c k u p
a n d th is w a s t h e m a i n – o n e o f th e m a i n is s u e s fr o m t h e m e d i c a l
p r o f e s s i o n a ls w h e r e t h e y s a i d , w e a r e n o t p r e p a r e d t o o p e r a t e in
10

h o s p i ta ls w h e r e t h is is t h e o n ly s o u r c e o f s u p p ly o f o x y g e n . B e c a u s e
t h e y s a i d i f th e r e i s a b r e a k d o w n o r a n e l e c tr ic i ty f a i l u r e t h e r e w il l b e
no oxygen.

A n d i f t h e y a r e b u s y o p e r a ti n g o r p e o p l e w h o a r e i n

in t e n s i v e c a r e t h e r e w o u l d b e n o o x y g e n f o r th o s e p a t i e n ts .

I n t a k a ’s

s o l u ti o n to t h a t w a s t o p r o v i d e a g e n e r a t o r w h ic h w o u ld p r o v i d e p o w e r
if t h e r e w a s a p o w e r f a i lu r e .

B u t t h e p l a n t ’s n e e d e d s i g n i fic a n t

m o d i f ic a ti o n if t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o s t o r e o x y g e n in c y li n d e r s w h ic h t h e ir
p l a n t s w e r e n o t c u r r e n tly – i t w a s n o t w h a t t h e y w e r e p la n n i n g to
p r o v i d e . S o t h a t a g a i n l e d t o d is a g r e e m e n ts i n th e c o n t r a c t s b e c a u s e
t h e d o c t o r s w a n t e d th e d e p a r t m e n t to c o n ti n u e t o b u y c y li n d e r s t h a t
20

w o u ld b e u s e d a s th e b a c k u p o b v io u s ly a t a n a d d i t io n a l c o s t t h e n t h is
d o e s n o t b e c o m e v ia b le .

A n d t h e la s t p o i n t t h a t I c a n r e m e m b e r is

t h e r e w a s is s u e s a r o u n d w h e t h e r t h e s e p l a n t s n e e d e d t o b e r e g is t e r e d
a s a m e d i c a l d e v ic e b y t h e m e d i c a l c o n tr o l c o u n c i l b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s
o n g o i n g d e b a t e a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e s u p p l y o f o x y g e n w a s a m e d ic a l
s u p p ly o r n o t . S o t h o s e it e m s t o o k – to o k m o n t h s e ffe c t iv e l y t o tr y a n d

Page 51 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
r e s o l v e a n d a g a in i t w a s b e c a u s e o ffic i a l s w i t h i n th e o r g a n i s a t io n d i d
not agree with what had happened and were now – there was push-back
a n d I c a n r e f e r to s o m e – s o m e d o c u m e n ts a n d e m a i ls w h e r e e ff e c t iv e l y
t h e M E C P e g g y N k o n y e n i n o w b e c a m e i n v o lv e d in tr y in g t o f in a l is e
t h e s e n e g o ti a ti o n s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w b e fo r e w e g o th e r e i f I c a n r e f e r y o u to
D o c to r S a v o i ’s a ff i d a v i t . I t i s b u n d l e D f o r d o g , p a g e 1 3 9 4 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex h ib i t R R 4 d ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s R R 4 d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r d o g . W h a t p a g e ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 1394.
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t is g o in g to b e C .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O h is i t C ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is C .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n s o r r y I a m j u s t tr y i n g to

lo c a t e i t m y s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I beg your pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t i s R – Ex h i b it R R 4 c .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: C.
CHAIRPERSON: What page, 1394?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W h a t i s t h a t?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o m e b o d y ’s a ffi d a v i t?

Page 52 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t is M r S a v o i ’s a ffi d a v i t w e d e a l t w i th it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In w h a t m a t te r ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I n b o t h m a t t e r s a n d j u s t t o r e m i n d y o u C h a ir I
w i ll – i f I c a n r e fe r t o p a g e 1 3 8 6 p a r a g r a p h 5 w h e r e D o c t o r S a v o i s a y s :
“ I h a v e b e e n a d v is e d th a t th e is s u e s t h a t h a v e b e e n
r a i s e d a n d w i t h w h i c h I s h o u ld d e a l i n t h is a ff id a v i t
a r e f ir s t ly a c e r ta i n d o n a t io n t h a t w a s p a i d b y In t a k a
in

February

2007

and

secondly

to

c o m m is s i o n

p a y m e n t s p a i d b y I n ta k a t o R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts
10

7 3 8 P T Y L i m it e d i n A u g u s t 2 0 0 7 .

I shall now deal

w i t h t h e s e is s u e s . ”
C h a ir w e r e f e r r e d t o th is a ff id a v i t w i t h r e g a r d t o th e d o n a ti o n
a p p a r e n t ly m a d e to th e A N C b u t t h r o u g h S h e z i A t t o r n e y s a n d w h a t
D o c to r S a v o i s a i d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h is is t h e a ff id a v i t t h a t M r W h it e y o u y e s t e r d a y

w a s fu r n is h e d to t h e p o l ic e b y D o c t o r S a v o i a t s t a g e i n t h e c o u r s e o f
t h e p o li c e in v e s ti g a t io n .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. I j u s t w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e i t is c le a r w h e r e
20

t h e a ffi d a v i t c a m e fr o m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d fr o m p a r a g r a p h 3 6 o f h is a ffi d a v it p a g e

1 3 9 4 h e d e a l s w i t h w h a t h e c a lls c o m m is s i o n s p a i d to R o w m o o r. C o u l d
y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t?

Page 53 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a r ti n g w it h w h a t w a s – w h a t w a s R o w m o o r ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir m a y b e i f j u s t t o e x p l a i n t h a t i f I c o u l d r e f e r t o t h e
diagram at TSW19.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t o n e o f t h o s e w e s a w y e s t e r d a y ?
M R W H I T E : I t i s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

I t is t h e d i a g r a m t h a t s h o w s t h e w h o le r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h

I n t a k e i n th e m i d d l e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: It is in RR4d for dog at page 1958.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : D i a g r a m s h o w s th a t I n t a k a is in t h e m i d d l e o f th e p ic t u r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR

W H I T E:

It

shows

a ll

the

relationships

w i th

th e

d i ff e r e n t

d e p a r t m e n ts a n d t h e n i t s h o w s t h a t t w o p a y m e n ts w e r e m a d e to
R o w m o o r In v e s t m e n t s o f R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 e a c h .
20

R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts is

a n e n ti t y t h a t is o w n e d a n d t h e d ir e c t o r o f w h i c h is Mr L i n d a
Mkhwanazi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d Mr M k h w a n a z i is t h e b o y fr i e n d o f t h e M E C f o r H e a l t h
at the time Ms Peggy Nkonyeni.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 54 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E : S o th is a ffi d a v i t o f D o c to r S a v o i a t te m p t s t o a d d r e s s t h o s e
t w o p a y m e n ts a n d w h a t t h o s e p a y m e n ts w e r e fo r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I n t h is a ff i d a v i t h e s a y s t h o s e tw o p a y m e n t s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Before that.

D o e s th e d i a g r a m t e ll u s

who – who owns Rowmoor?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir i f w e g o t o th e l e f t o n t h e p a g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : I n t h e m id d le w e s e e In t a k a i s i n th e m i d d le .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e r e is t w o p a y m e n ts t o R o w m o o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : T h e n n e x t to t h a t I h a v e L H M k h w a n a z i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d th e a r r o w g o i n g a c r o s s w i t h 1 0 0 % .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o h e is t h e 1 0 0 % o w n e r o f R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : A n d th e n I li n k …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Was Rowmoor a CC?
M R W H I T E : I t w a s a c o m p a n y to m y r e c o l l e c ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Close Corporation.

Ye s o k a y.

d ir e c t o r ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 55 of 212

But he was the sole

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E:

C h a ir th e i n te r e s t i n g p o i n t is th e e n ti ty w a s i n i ti a lly

r e g is t e r e d o n t h e 2 6 M a r c h 2 0 0 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : M r M k h w a n a z i b e c a m e a d ir e c t o r o n th e 4 M a y 2 0 0 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R W H I T E : N o w t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h o s e d a t e s is t h a t D o c t o r S a v o i i n
h is a ffi d a v i t s a y s t h e t w o p a y m e n t s o f R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 r e l a te d t o Mr
M k h w a n a z i ’s a s s i s t a n c e a n d i n v o lv e m e n t w i t h o b t a i n in g t h e c o n t r a c t s
f o r t h e s u p p ly o f t h e Wa t a k a ’s t o th e A p p e ls b o s c h a n d R ie t v l e i H o t e l –
10

R i e tv le i H o s p i t a ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

N o w t h e – t h e p r o b l e m w i t h t h a t e x p la n a ti o n C h a ir a n d

w h e r e – w i th r e s p e c t to D o c to r S a v o i i t d o e s n o t a l l ti e t o g e t h e r i s
t h o s e c o n tr a c ts fo r t h o s e h o s p i t a l s w e r e a w a r d e d i n O c t o b e r o f 2 0 0 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E:

T h e p a y m e n ts a r e n o w m a d e in A u g u s t a n d N o v e m b e r o f

2007.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o m e m o r e t h a n t e n m o n t h s l a te r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: So – but what was happening…
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e t h o s e p a y m e n ts – s o t h e p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e

t o t h e l e g a l e n ti ty a n d n o t t o M r M k h w a n a z i in h i s p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty.
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: And – and if they – if – well assuming if Rowmoor had

Page 56 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
e x i s te d in 2 0 0 6 a n d M r M k h w a n a z i h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d i n it a n d
R o w m o o r h a d b e e n u s e d a s s u m i n g i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n la w f u l fo r t h is t o
h a p p e n t o a s s is t I n ta k a t o g e t th is b u s in e s s t h e n a t l e a s t i f R o w m o o r
e x i s te d i n 2 0 0 6 a n d M r M k h w a n a z i w a s p a r t o f i t a t th a t ti m e m a y b e
t h e r e c o u l d b e s o m e t h i n g i n t h e p r o p o s i t io n . B u t y o u a r e s a y in g t h a t M r
M k h w a n a z i a n d R o w m o o r h a d n o in v o lv e m e n t w i t h e a c h o th e r p r i o r t o
2007 and you say the award was in 2006/
M R W H I T E:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d ju s t t o t a k e t h a t o n e s te p

f u r th e r t h e r e w a s a l s o n o th i n g i n In t a k a ’s r e c o r d s t h a t w e r e s e i z e d
10

in c l u d i n g t h e e m a ils a s w e l l a s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h ’s r e c o r d s ,
in c l u d i n g a ll t h e o ffi c i a l s i n t e r v ie w e d s a y i n g th a t M r M k h w a n a z i is h is
p e r s o n a l c a p a c it y h a d a n y i n v o lv e m e n t e i t h e r. S o h e m a y h a v e s a i d I
d i d i t i n m y p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty a n d my c o m p a n y w a s o n ly r e g is t e r e d
la t e r b u t i n h is p e r s o n a l c a p a c i t y h is n a m e o r a n y m e n t i o n o f h i m d o e s
n o t a p p e a r a n y w h e r e in t h a t p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d id – d o e s D o c to r S a v o i i n h i s a ff i d a v i t e x p l a i n

e x a c tl y w h a t i t is t h a t e i t h e r R o w m o o r o r M r M k h w a n a z i d i d fo r I n ta k a ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir m a y b e i t w o u ld b e b e tt e r if I j u s t r e a d t h i s

s p e c i f ic p a r a g r a p h s ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir i f w e g o t o p a g e 1 3 9 4 w h i c h is i n R R 4 c .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: At paragraph 36 it reads?
“ I n o w t u r n t o t h e is s u e o f th e c o m m i s s i o n p a i d t o
R o w m o o r. ”

Page 57 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
Paragraph 37.
“ I n t h is r e g a r d M r L in d e l ih l e M k h w a n a z i w i t h w h o m
w e h a d i n i t ia lly c o m e i n to c o n t a c t a t a n e a r ly s t a g e
d u r i n g o u r d i s c u s s io n w i t h v e r y r o l e – v a r i o u s r o l e
p l a y e r s in K Z N a p p r o a c h e d u s e x p r e s s i n g a n in t e r e s t
in m a r k e ti n g o u r p r o d u c ts i n K Z N . H e i n d ic a t e d t h a t
he

was

a lr e a d y

supplying

s t a ti o n e r y

and

other

p r o d u c ts t o K Z N P G d e p a r t m e n t s a n d w e t h e r e f o r e
t h o u g h t th a t t h e r e w o u ld b e n o h a r m i n g i v in g h i m a n
10

o p p o r t u n i ty to m a r k e t o u r s a s w e l l . I w o u ld a d d t h a t
d is c u s s io n s w i th p r e v i o u s p o t e n ti a l B E b u s i n e s s
partners in KZN had come to naught. I cannot recall
e x a c tl y

when

th e

i n i ti a l

d i s c u s s io n

w i th

Mr

M k h w a n a z i t o o k p la c e . ”
Paragraph 38.
“ W e i n it i a l ly h a d n o t p l a c e [ in d is ti n c t ] w h a t I w o u l d
d e s c r ib e a s a g e n t le m a n ’s a g r e e m e n t i n te r ms o f
w h ic h i t w a s a g r e e d h e w o u ld p r o m o te In t a k a a n d i t s
p r o d u c ts w i th i n th e g e o g r a p h ic a l a r e a o f K Z N .
20

Th e

in t e n t io n w a s t h a t t h is w o u l d b e f o l lo w e d u p w i t h a
f o r m a l s o l e a g e n c y a g r e e m e n t in t e r m s o f w h ic h in t e r
a l ia h e w o u l d b e e n ti t le d t o c o m m i s s io n o n a l l In t a k a
Wa t e r

P u r i fic a ti o n

and

Self

G e n e r a t in g

Oxygen

e q u ip m e n t s o l d in K Z N ir r e s p e c ti v e o f w h e t h e r h e
w a s t h e d ir e c t c a u s e o f t h e s a le .

Page 58 of 212

T h is is t h e

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
standard

approach

reached

in

our

s o le

agency

a g r e e m e n ts . T h a t t h is w a s n o t p u r s u e d a t a n y s ta g e
a ft e r t h e in i ti a l d is c u s s i o n s a n a g r e e m e n t is p e r h a p s
d u e in p a r t t o t h e f a c t t h a t I n t a k a d i d n o t h a v e a f u l l
ti m e l e g a l c o u n s e l a t t h e t i m e a n d i t w a s o n l y
subsequent to the appointment of Mr Rual De Lange
in Fe b r u a r y 2 0 0 7 t h a t a n u m b e r o f o u t s t a n d i n g l e g a l
is s u e s o r is s u e s w i t h l e g a l i m p li c a t io n s w e r e fo ll o w e d
up.”
10

Paragraph 39.
“Be that as it may however at some point subsequent
to

our

d is c u s s i o n s

with

Mr

Mkhwanazi

I

was

approached by Doctor Busi Nyembezi the then Head
D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a lt h w h o m I h a d m e t p r e v io u s ly
t o g e th e r w i th t h e M E C o f H e a l t h fo r K Z N M s P e g g y
N k o n y e n i. D o c to r N y e m b e z i e n q u ir e d fr o m m e a b o u t
the

p o s s i b l e p u r c h a s e o f tw o W a t a k a ’s fo r t h e

R i e tv le i a n d A p p e l s b o s c h H o s p i t a ls . ”
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

N o w if y o u c a n ju s t s to p t h e r e .

I t is c l e a r

w h a t h e is s a y in g a n d it w ill a p p e a r a s w e r e fe r f u r t h e r h e r e fe r s to t h i s
a s c o m m i s s io n n o t fo r s e c u r in g t h e s e l f- g e n e r a ti n g o x y g e n p la n t
c o n tr a c t b u t it is c o m m is s i o n f o r s e c u r i n g t h e t w o W a ta k a ’s t h e W a t e r
P u r i fic a ti o n P la n ts , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Okay continue.

Page 59 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
MR WHITE:

B u t C h a ir ju s t o n p a r a g r a p h 3 9 t h e r e w a s n o d o c u m e n ts

a n y w h e r e a n d a s I s a i d b e fo r e fr o m w h a t I s a w In t a k a h a d t h e – a n d
t h e ir e m p l o y e e s p r in t e d o u t e v e r y t h in g o r ty p e d i t u p a n d s a v e d i t a n d
s a v e d i t i n f il e s e tc e te r a .

S o i f th e r e w a s c o m m u n i c a t io n w i t h Mr

M k h w a n a z i I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d t o h a v e fo u n d s o m e th in g e v e n i f it
w a s s ms ’ b e c a u s e t h a t is – t h a t is t h e w a y th e y k e p t th e ir r e c o r d s . S o
t h e r e w a s – t h e r e w a s a b s o l u te ly n o th in g in t h e ir r e c o r d s a r o u n d t h a t
ti m e . C h a ir a n d th e n m a y b e ju s t t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:
10

But

was

there

any

in d ic a ti o n

that

either

Mr

M k h w a n a z i o r R o w m o o r w a s d o i n g a n y m a r k e ti n g f o r a n y b o d y ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I d id n o t h a v e t h e i r r e c o r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

B u t fr o m w h a t I c o u l d s e e i n I n t a k a ’s r e c o r d s t h e y w e r e

n o t d o i n g a n y th i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . W e ll i t w o u ld b e i n te r e s t in g t o s e e w h e th e r
t h e ir b u s i n e s s in v o lv e d m a r k e ti n g a n y b o d y ’s p r o d u c t a t a l l a t t h e t i m e .
Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f w e c o u ld t h e n g o t o p a r a g r a p h 4 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e M r W h it e i f t h e r e i s n o p r o p e r e x p l a n a t i o n
20

o r s a ti s fa c t o r y e x p l a n a t io n f o r t h e s e t w o p a y m e n ts t o R o w m o o r a n d M r
M k h w a n a z i i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t t h o s e p a y m e n ts m i g h t b e p a r t o f t h e
e x p l a n a t io n f o r s o m e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t a r e d i ffic u l t t o u n d e r s t a n d in
r e g a r d t o t h e s e p r o je c t s .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I a g r e e 1 0 0 % a n d t h a t w a s t h e c o n c l u s io n s t h a t t h e
p r o s e c u t o r s i n t h i s m a t te r c a m e t o o r i g i n a l l y.

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

W h e n y o u l o o k a t i t a s a c o m p l e t e p ic tu r e t h e y s a i d a s

C h a ir s a id a lo t o f t h in g s a r e i n e x p l ic a b l e f o r w h a t w a s d o n e a n d th e
f a c t th a t m o n e y is n o w b e i n g p a id t o p e o p l e l i n k e d t o p e o p l e i n
p o s i ti o n s t h a t c o u ld in f lu e n c e th e s e p r o c e s s e s t h e i n fe r e n c e th a t w a s
d r a w n b y th e p r o s e c u t o r s w a s th a t th e s e w e r e c o r r u p t p a y m e n t s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o i f y o u c a n d e a l w it h p a r a g r a p h 4 4 p l e a s e ?
MR WHITE:
10

“ T h e t w o W a ta k a ’s w e r e s u b s e q u e n tly s u p p li e d a s
p e r t h e q u o ta t io n a n d c o p i e s o f t h e r e l e v a n t s a l e s
o r d e r s a n d ta x i n v o ic e o f 6 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 6 a r e
a tt a c h e d a s a r e a ls o a le t t e r fr o m m y s e l f to D o c t o r
N y e m b e z i d a te d 1 2 D e c e m b e r r e g a r d i n g t h e 5 0 %
is s u e in c l u d i n g f a x tr a n s m is s io n fo r m . T h r e e f u r t h e r
t a x i n v o ic e s , 3 11 , 3 4 7 a n d 3 4 8 a n d a n e x tr a c t fr o m
I n t a k a ’s g e n e r a l l e d g e r in t h i s r e g a r d . ”
C h a ir t h is – t h e 5 0 % t h a t is b e i n g r e f e r r e d t h e r e i s I n t a k a w a n te d a 5 0 %
u p fr o n t p a y m e n t b e f o r e – b a s e d o n r e c e ip t o f t h e o r d e r.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE: And there was a push-back from the department saying in
t e r m s o f g o v e r n m e n t p r o c u r e m e n t w e c a n n o t p a y u p fr o n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : Yo u n e e d t o d e l iv e r a n d th e n w e w ill p a y y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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MR WHITE:

T h a t – s o th e r e w a s s o m e b a c k w a r d s a n d f o r w a r d s

r e g a r d in g th a t a s w e ll
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I am sorry I just want to go back to the

c o m m i s s io n , to t h e t w o p a y m e n ts . D i d y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n r e v e a l h o w fa r
t h a t m o n e y w e n t?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir. I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If it w e n t t o R o w m o o r a n d d id i t e n d t h e r e ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t w a s u s e d fr o m t h e r e I c a n n o t – t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g
– I c o u l d n o t tr a c e i t to a n y s p e c i fi c o t h e r i n d iv id u a l .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : L i n k e d to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t t h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O k a y n o w C h a i r j u s t to m a k e t h e p o i n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I n p a r a g r a p h 4 4 a g a in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i t is m a d e v e r y c l e a r b y D o c to r S a v o i t h a t
h e is r e fe r r i n g t o t h e t w o W a ta k a ’s n o t th e s e lf - g e n e r a t in g o x y g e n
plants.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I f y o u c o u l d th e n p le a s e d e a l w i t h w h a t h e

says in paragraphs 46 and 47?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t j u s t t o g o b a c k t o th e p o in t I
t h i n k a t 4 4 y o u s a y t h a t I n ta k a d e m a n d e d a n u p fr o n t p a y m e n t a n d t h e r e
w a s r e s i s t a n c e to t h a t fr o m o ffic i a ls w i t h i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a lt h .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d l a te r o n y o u w i ll i n d ic a t e h o w fa r th a t

d e b a te w e n t – w h a t – h o w i t e n d e d ?
M R W H I T E:

W e ll C h a i r t h e y w e r e n o t – a n d th e u p fr o n t p a y m e n t w a s

not made.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s n o t m a d e o h o k a y.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir a t p a r a g r a p h 4 6 o n p a g e 1 3 9 7 i t r e a d s :
“ R e v e r ti n g t o th e is s u e o f M r M k h w a n a z i a n d th e
c o m m i s s io n s p a i d t o h i m a s a l r e a d y in d ic a te d I w a s
10

o f t h e v i e w t h a t a g e n t l e m a n ’s a g r e e m e n t e x is t e d
b e t w e e n u s a n d th a t a s a r e s u l t h e w a s e n t i tl e d t o
c o m m i s s io n s o n t h e s a l e o f t h e t w o W a ta k a ’s a s
detailed above.

I d o n o t e t h a t b y th e ti m e t h e

p a y m e n t f o r t h e tw o W a t a k a ’s h a d b e e n m a d e t o
I n t a k e b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th t h e s t a n d a r d s o le
agency agreement prepared by our legal counsel Mr
D e L a n g e h a d n o t y e t b e e n c o n c lu d e d w i th M r
M k h w a n a z i . A f te r t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s p r e p a r e d b y M r
D e L a n g e t h e m a t t e r w a s a ls o s u b s e q u e n t ly fo ll o w e d
20

u p b y o r c o m m e r c i a l d e p a r t m e n t u n d e r t h e d ir e c ti o n
o f Mr F e r n a n d o P r a d e r i . H o w e v e r i n t h e s p ir i t o f t h e
g e n tl e m a n ’s a g r e e m e n t I n e v e r t h e l e s s b e l ie v e d t h e
c o m m i s s io n s h o u ld b e p a i d to h i m i n r e s p e c t o f th e
t w o W a t a k a s a le s a n d t h e r e f o r e a u t h o r i s e d t h a t s u c h
payments be made.

C o p i e s o f t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n s

Page 63 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
p e r t a in in g t o t h e p a y m e n ts a r e a t t a c h e d . ”
S o C h a ir t h e r e w a s a p a r t f r o m t h e s o c a l le d g e n tl e m a n ’s a g r e e m e n t
t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g to s u p p o r t t h e l in k o f M r M k h w a n a z i t o th e s a l e o f th e
Wa t e r P u r i fic a ti o n Pl a n ts fo r t h e A p p e l s b o s c h a n d R i e tv l e i H o s p i t a l s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d – d i d y o u r t e a m l o o k a t I n ta k a ’s c o m p u t e r s a n d

c e l l p h o n e s f o r D o c t o r S a v o i t o s e e w h a t c o m m u n ic a ti o n s e i t h e r b y
e m a i l o r l e t te r s o r s m s ’s o r W h a t s a p p h a d – m a y h a v e t a k e n p l a c e
b e t w e e n M r M k h w a n a z i a n d – a n d In t a k a a b o u t h is m a r k e t in g r o l e ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir w e c o u l d fi n d n o th i n g in th e ir r e c o r d s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : B o t h h a r d c o p y d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e s e iz e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : Th e r e w e r e s o m e 3 2 0 l e v e r a r c h f il e s o f d o c u m e n t s s e i z e d
fr o m I n t a k a ’s p r e m is e s .
CHAIRPERSON: HM.
MR WHITE:

A s w e ll a s w e h a d a p p r o x i m a t e ly t h r e e te r a b y t e s o f

e l e c tr o n ic d a t a fr o m t h e v a r io u s c o m p u t e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E:
20

A n d w e c o u l d n o t f i n d d e t a i l s o f w h a t h e w a s a l le g e d to

h a v e d o n e r e l a ti n g t o th is m a r k e t in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d a c t u a l c o m m u n ic a t io n b e t w e e n t h e m ?
M R W H I T E : N o t a t th e ti m e C h a ir n o .
CHAIRPERSON: Not at the time?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir w h a t I w il l r e fe r t o s h o r t ly is w h e r e I fo u n d

r e c o r d s t h a t M r M k h w a n a z i h a d m e e t in g s w i t h D o c to r S a v o i t o g e t h e r

Page 64 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
with Peggy Nkonyeni at the time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u fo u n d e v i d e n c e o f th a t ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s th is p r i o r to t h e a w a r d o f t h e O x i n t a k a ?
M R W H I T E : S o i t w a s a ft e r t h e a w a r d o f t h e W a t e r P u r i fi c a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : B u t p r io r to t h e fi n a li s a t io n o f t h e c o n tr a c t f o r t h e o x y g e n
plants.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w – h o w d i d y o u fi n d e v i d e n c e o f t h a t m e e ti n g ?
Wa s t h a t i n s o m e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e ? W a s t h a t in s o m e s m s ’s o r ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir m a y b e i f I c o u ld ju s t r e fe r t o t h a t?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir w e w il l d e a l – w e w il l d e a l w it h t h a t in
d u e c o u r s e . P e r h a p s i f I c a n t a k e i t s t e p b y s t e p C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I j u s t w a n t t o k n o w n o w.
M R W H I T E : O k a y s o C h a ir it w a s i n th e r e c o r d s o f I n ta k a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R W H I T E : S o o n e o f t h e s o u r c e s w a s D o c t o r S a v o i ’s e le c t r o n i c d ia r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W h i c h w e t h e n m a tc h e d b a c k t o s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n ts lik e
b o o k i n g s f o r a ir ti c k e ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : H o te l a c c o m m o d a ti o n e tc e te r a .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E: A s w e ll a s o t h e r d o c u m e n ts i n I n ta k a ’s r e c o r d s c o n f ir m i n g
t h a t m e e ti n g s w e r e s e t d o w n a n d w e r e t o t a k e p la c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o y o u f o u n d r e c o r d s w h ic h r e fl e c t e d t h a t s u c h
a m e e t in g d i d ta k e p l a c e ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d t h e n l a t e r o n w e c a n g o t o t h e r e c o r d s b u t th a t
is w h a t – t h a t i s h o w y o u c a m e t o k n o w ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

And would there have been any minutes of the

d is c u s s io n s ?
M R W H I T E : T h e r e is n o .
CHAIRPERSON: No minutes?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir I c o m e t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t t h o s e w e r e n o t

o ffic i a l D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h m e e t i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

B e c a u s e t h e r e is n o m in u t e s a n d n o fe e d b a c k i n t o th e

D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h b a s e d o n t h o s e m e e t in g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR WHITE:

S o t h o s e a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n p r i v a t e m e e ti n g s o f M s

Nkonyeni and Mr Mkhwanazi with Doctor Savoi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o n o w g o i n g b a c k y o u s a i d t h a t th e b id w a s
a c c e p te d o n t h e 2 6 J u n e 2 0 0 7 a n d w e k n o w t h a t th e c o n tr a c t w a s
u l ti m a t e ly s i g n e d o n th e 1 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 7 n e a r ly s i x m o n t h s l a te r.

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A n d y o u e x p l a in e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a d e l a y i n s i g n in g t h e c o n tr a c t
b e c a u s e o f th e s e d i ffic u lt i e s t h a t h a d b e e n r a is e d . A n d C h a ir I a m n o w
g o i n g t o r e fe r t o d o c u m e n t s f r o m w h ic h I w ill s u b m i t i t w ill b e c o m e c l e a r
w h a t th e tr u e p u r p o s e o f t h e p a y m e n t to R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h e r e d o I g o ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o C h a ir i f w e c a n g o b a c k .

I t h in k it i s

b u n d l e b C h a ir. S o i t is R R 4 b fo r b a d a n d it is p a g e 6 3 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: Page 630?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

Ye s C h a ir.

And the bottom of that page

p a r a g r a p h 9 .1 2 8 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h is is n o w s o m e f iv e m o n t h s a ft e r t h e a w a r d a n d
it is a b o u t a m o n t h b e f o r e t h e c o n tr a c t is – t h e a p p o in t m e n t i s a c t u a ll y
m a d e a n d C h a i r t o p u t t h e – in t o t h e c o n t e x t th e t w o p a y m e n ts o f
R 5 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 to R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts w e r e o n t h e 3 0 A u g u s t a n d th e
23 November 2007.

S o t h i s i s b e t w e e n t h e t w o p a y m e n t s th is

c o m m u n ic a ti o n to o k p l a c e . S o M r D e L a n g e w h o is t h e i n - h o u s e l e g a l
a t In t a k a s e n t a l e t t e r t o D o c t o r M b e l e . D o c to r M b e l e a t t h e ti m e w a s
t h e n e w H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o f K Z N H e a lt h s o D o c to r N y e m b e z i h a d
20

been removed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h d id h e o r s h e s u c c e e d D o c t o r N y e m b e z i ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. S o s h e [ in d is ti n c t ] .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh was it – was it a she?
M R W H I T E : A ls o a s h e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
MR WHITE:

So

15 November 2007

and

the

email is copied

to

Ms Nkonyeni.

O k a y a n d i t r e l a t e s to th e d e l a y s e x p e r i e n c e d a n d t h e

n e e d to f in a l is e th e a g r e e m e n t . O k a y. S o t h a t i s w h a t th a t - th a t e m a i l
is a b o u t . D r S a v o i s e n t a n e m a i l t o D e L a n g e o n t h e s a m e d a y. T h a t
w a s t i tl e d “ K Z N Te n d e r C o n t r a c t ” a n d i n c lu d e d in t h a t e m a i l is t h e
f o ll o w i n g :
“ A f t e r a l o n g c o n f e r e n c e w i th t h e M E C … ”
It would be Ms Nkonyeni.
“ … s h e is v e r y d is a p p o in t e d w i th H O D a n d Vic t o r ’s
10

a tt i tu d e n o t p r o c e e d i n g a s p e r h e r in s t r u c t i o n s . ”
C h a ir t h e H O D w a s D r M b e le a n d Vi c to r w a s Mr N ts h a n g a s e the Head of the Supply Chain Management Department.
“All

th e

situation

was

c r e a te d

because

Vi c to r

r e c e i v e d q u e s t io n n a ir e f r o m D A a n d o n ly t o d a y
d is c l o s e d t o M E C .

M E C w i ll r e p l y t o D A .

Vi c t o r

m u s t s e n d to y o u le g a l d o c u m e n t s a s y o u r e q u e s t e d
t o d a y. I f y o u d o n o t r e c e iv e t h e m c l a i m t h e m to h i m
b y e m a il a n d a c o p y t o M E C .

I informed the M EC

t h a t a s p e r m y i n s tr u c t io n s o n c e w e r e c e iv e t h e s e
20

d o c u m e n ts y o u w i ll e m a il h i m .

CC MEC and HOD

in f o r m i n g t h a t y o u a n d th e C o m m e r c i a l D ir e c t o r w il l
b e t h e r e t o m a k e a s h o r t p r e s e n t a ti o n o f t h e
c o m p a n y a n d p r o d u c t to H O D . S h e w il l m a k e s u r e
t h a t y o u r e t u r n w i t h t h e d o c u m e n ts s i g n e d .

I

e x p l a i n e d t o h e r t h e r e a s o n w h y I w il l n o t b e t h e r e

Page 68 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
a n d s h e f u lly a g r e e d . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th is is - t h is is D r M b e l e o r n o , n o . Th is is D e L a n g e .
W h o is w r i t in g h e r e ?
MR WHITE:

S o th is i s D r S a v o i s e n d i n g a n - s e n d i n g t h i s t o - t o

De Lange. So there was am …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm …
M R W H I T E : I n i t ia l e m a il .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d d e - a n d D e L a n g e is le g a l c o u n s e l - i n te r n a l

le g a l c o u n s e l f o r I n ta k a ?
10

M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. S o h e w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. So …
MR WHITE: He was the …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - s o D r S a v o i h a d h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th

Dr Mbele?
M R W H I T E : N o . W i th - w it h M s N k o n y e n i C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: With - with Ms Nkonyeni …
M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e i s n o w u p d a ti n g D e L a n g e - M r D e L a n g e

a b o u t w h a t tr a n s p ir e d i n t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n . Is t h a t r i g h t ?
20

M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE: Because Mr De Lange had been tasked or was the person
t h a t w a s i n te r a c t i n g w i th th e l e g a l p e o p l e a t - a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
H e a lt h tr y i n g to g e t th e c o n tr a c t fi n a l is e d .

S o b e c a u s e it w a s n o t

m o v i n g - w a s n o t g e tt i n g fi n a l is e d D r S a v o i a p p e a r s t o h a v e g o n e

Page 69 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
o u t s i d e o f t h e l e g a l p r o c e s s n e g o t ia t io n s t o t h e M E C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : F o r h e r t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n th e p e o p l e t o g e t it f in a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
MR WHITE:

T h e s li g h t a d d i ti o n a l c o m p l i c a ti o n is n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s

a ls o a n e w H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o t h a t is w h y m y in t e r p r e t a t io n i s t h e y n o w w a n te d t o d o
a b r i e f p r e s e n t a ti o n t o h e r a s t o w h a t t h is i s a c t u a ll y a b o u t a s w e ll .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

L e t m e ju s t s e e .

Ye s .

O k a y.

Ye s .

Yo u c a n

c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: So it …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o d o e s - d o e s th is e m a il r e f l e c t t h a t M r D e L a n g e

w o u ld d o t h e p r e s e n ta t io n a n d D r S a v o i w o u l d n o t b e t h e r e ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d i t a ls o - C h a ir - i n d ic a te s t h a t h e is

r e p o r t in g t o D e L a n g e t h a t a f t e r a l o n g c o n f e r e n c e w i t h M s N k o n y e n i .
S h e is v e r y d is a p p o i n t e d w i t h t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t a n d Vic t o r ’s
20

a tt i tu d e f o r n o t p r o c e e d in g a n d t h is w h o le s i tu a ti o n is c r e a te d b e c a u s e
o f a q u e s t io n n a ir e fr o m t h e D A , b u t s h e - th e a s s u r a n c e s a t t h e e n d
v e r y i m p o r t a n tly s h e w i ll m a k e s u r e th a t y o u r e tu r n w i th th e d o c u m e n ts
s ig n e d .
I f I c a n th e n t u r n to p a g e 6 - 3 - 2 a n d p a r a g r a p h 9 .1 . 3 - 3 w h ic h
r e fe r s t o a f u r th e r e m a il - i n t e r n a l e m a il d a t e d 5 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 7 fr o m

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
S a v o i t o D e L a n g e . C o u ld y o u d e a l w i t h th a t?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, th is e m a il w a s t i tl e d K Z N C o n tr a c t O x y g e n

G e n e r a t o r s a n d i n th a t e m a i l D r S a v o i a d v i s e s M r D e L a n g e a s f o l lo w s :
“ A c c o r d i n g t o y e s t e r d a y ’s t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t io n
w i t h t h e M E C o f H e a l th K Z N .

I r e i te r a t e th e n e e d

f o r b o t h p a r t ie s t o h a v e t h e c o n tr a c t s i g n e d t h i s
week.”
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And paragraph 9.1-3.4. What does that deal
with?
10

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h is p a r a g r a p h n o w s e ts o u t t h a t n e v e r m i n d t h e
p e o p l e a t th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a lt h h a v i n g c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e c o n tr a c t .
T h e - s o m e o f th e e m p l o y e e s a t In t a k a a l s o f e l t t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s
n o t p r o p e r l y w o r d e d o r d r a f te d b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t b e li e v e t h e ir
p r o d u c t m e t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d C h a i r t h i s is a
d o c u m e n t n o w d a t e d 7 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 7 a n d i t is s e n t - a n d I a m r e a d i n g
fr o m t h e - t h e s e c o n d li n e .
Fr o m S t e f a n O o s th u i z e n w h o w a s t h e I n d u s tr i a l a n d Te c h n ic a l
D ir e c t o r o f In t a k a . H e s e n t t h is e m a i l to I n ta k a . H e s e n t t h is e m a il t o
M r D e L a n g e . H e c o p i e s Mr P r a d e r i w h o w a s t h e - o n e o f t h e D ir e c to r s

20

a n d M r E r a s m u s . C h a ir, I d o n o t q u i t e r e c a l l w h a t M r E r a s m u s ’ p o s i ti o n
w a s , b u t h e r a is e d c o n c e r n s w it h r e g a r d t o th e b i d a n d t h e b i d o ff e r.
T h e s e c o n c e r n s a r e r e le v a n t p a r ti c u l a r l y to p o i n t o n e a n d
t h e n I q u o t e fr o m h is - h i s e m a il :
“ S c o p e is c l e a r t h a t s u p p l y m u s t b e c o n t in u o u s
o n li n e s u p p ly.

O u r s t a n d a r d m a c h in e s a s a s ta n d -

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
a l o n e c a n n o t p r o v id e t h i s w i t h o u t th e c y li n d e r
manifold or VIE of the hospital as backup.”
C h a ir, I c o n c l u d e t h a t h e n c e a t t h a t s t a g e t h e t e c h n i c a l
p e o p l e a t In t a k a s a id t h e c o n tr a c t w e a r e a b o u t t o s i g n o u r - o u r
e q u ip m e n t d o e s n o t m e e t th e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s . S o - a n d th a t w a s w h y t h is
t h i n g h a d b e e n d r a g g in g o n f o r s o l o n g , b u t C h a ir r e g a r d le s s o f t h e
in t e r n a l is s u e s

th e c o n tr a c t w a s s t il l s i g n e d s ix d a y s la t e r o n

13 December 2007.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o j u s t g o in g b a c k to t h a t t o m a k e t h e p o i n t .
10

W h a t h a s b e e n s a i d t o D e L a n g e w h o t h e n s ig n s t h e a g r e e m e n t w i t h i n a
f e w d a y s o f b e i n g t o l d t h is p r e s u m a b l y b y t e c h n ic a l p e o p le in h is o w n
c o m p a n y th a t w e a r e p r o v id in g s e l f- g e n e r a ti n g o x y g e n p la n ts th a t a r e
a b o u t t o b e r e l ie d o n b y h o s p it a ls a n d p a ti e n t s w h o i n o p e r a ti o n s o r
o th e r w i s e in in t e n s i v e c a r e a n d w e a r e n o t s u r e t h a t o u r m a c h i n e w il l
g iv e c o n ti n u o u s s u p p ly a n d t h a t w e w il l n e e d b a c k u p . W h a t b a c k u p w a s
- w e r e t h e y c o n t e m p l a t in g ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h e r e w e r e t w o o p t io n s . E i t h e r t h e - t h e d e p a r t m e n t
h a d t o b u y o r r e n t c y li n d e r s a s i t h a d u s e d i n t h e p a s t o r t h e - t h e
m a c h in e - t h e p l a n t to b e p r o v i d e d b y I n t a k a t o b e m o d i f ie d t o a d d o n

20

a n a d d it i o n a l u n i t t o i t w h e r e t h e y c o u l d - t h e o x y g e n c o u l d b e s t o r e d i n
tanks.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . S o r r y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th e n o n t h e s a m e d a y I b e l i e v e t h a t t h e

c o n tr a c t w a s s i g n e d - 1 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 7 . Yo u r e fe r t o a n e m a i l o f t h a t
d a t e s e n t t o s t a ff m e m b e r s o f I n t a k a b y S a v o i .

Page 72 of 212

I t is p a g e 6 - 3 - 2

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
p a r a g r a p h 9 .1 - 3 - 5 . C o u l d y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t?
M R W H I T E : I f I c o u ld ju s t r e a d i t C h a ir a n d t h e n I w i ll c o m m e n t .
“On 13 December 2007 at 18:03 (the agreement was
s ig n e d e a r l ie r i n t h e d a y a t I n k o s i A lb e r t L u th u li
H o s p i ta l) . S a v o i s e n t a n e m a il t o f o u r o f h is s t a ff .
The

content

r e l a ti o n s h i p

of
w i th

th e

email

Rowmoor

r e l a te s

to

Investments

I n t a k a ’s
as

at

1 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 7 b e in g m o r e t h a n a y e a r a ft e r
t h e y h a d b e e n a w a r d e d t h e s u p p l y o f th e t w o w a t e r
10

p u r i fi c a t io n p l a n ts f o r R ie tv l e i a n d A p p e ls b o s c h
H o s p i ta ls a n d th in g s th a t e i t h e r d i d n o t o r w e r e n o t
going to happen:

q u a n ti ti e s , m a in t e n a n c e c o n tr a c t

a n d th e r e m o v a l o f o n e h o s p it a l. ”
S o C h a ir t h e y e ffe c tiv e ly m u d d l in g b o t h to g e th e r.

Th e y

r e fe r r i n g t o t h e O x y n ta k a c o n tr a c t , b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e r e t h e is s u e s o f
q u a n ti ti e s , m a in t e n a n c e c o n tr a c t e t c e t e r a a s w e ll t h e R i e tv le i a n d
A p p e ls b o s c h H o s p i t a l s , b u t th e c o i n c i d e n c e is th is e m a il i s w r it t e n in
t h e a ft e r n o o n o r e a r ly e v e n in g .
6 o ’ c l o c k in t h e e v e n i n g w h e n t h e c o n t r a c t w a s s ig n e d t h a t
20

a ft e r n o o n f o r t h e O x in t a k a s . S o m e - s o w h i le i t r e f e r s t o th e Wa t a k a s .
T h i s - t h i s e m a i l is w r i tt e n b y D r S a v o i o n e x a c tl y t h e s a m e d a y t h a t t h e
O x y n t a k a c o n t r a c t is s ig n e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir m a y b e …

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o in t y o u a r e m a k i n g

a b o u t t h e t i m e o f t h e s i g n i n g a n d t h e t i m e o f t h e e m a il .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir, t h i s e m a i l w a s w r i t t e n w i th i n h o u r s o f th e

Oxyntaka contract being signed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o m y i n f e r e n c e t o d r a w f r o m t h a t is th a t th e - th e i s s u e
that …
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t - l e t u s s ta r t w i t h w h a t i t s a y s , b e c a u s e t h e n

m a y b e th a t is w h e r e I w i ll g e t th e - t h e c l u e .
10

M R W H I T E : O k a y. S o t h e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

A b o u t q u a n ti t ie s a n d m a i n te n a n c e - w h a t - w h a t i t

s a y in g t h e e m a i l a b o u t a l l th o s e th i n g s ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir m a y b e I c a n r e fe r t o t h e - I h a v e q u o te o n t h e

next page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s r e a d t h a t fi r s t .
MR WHITE: Page 6-3-3.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE:

“ C o n s i d e r i n g t h a t th e c o n d i ti o n s o f t h e K Z N

t e n d e r c o n tr a c t th a t w a s s i g n e d a r e d i ff e r e n t fr o m
20

w h a t w a s i n i t i a ll y a p p r o v e d b e t w e e n o u r c o m p a n y
and the Department of Health.
necessary

and

important

to

I b e li e v e i t i s
check

the

draft

c o n tr a c ts s e n t to R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts . I t m u s t b e
tr a n s m i tt e d to R o w m o o r t h a t t h e r e a r e a l o t o f
things agreed with the Department of Health of KZN

Page 74 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
that were going to happen and did not happen as
o n e : t h e y d e c i d e d to c o n s id e r t h e w r o n g q u a n ti ti e s
m e n ti o n e d i n th e te n d e r a n d t h e v o lu m e s th a t o u r
t e c h n ic ia n s g o t d u r i n g t h e v is it a n d th a t m o s t o f
t h e m w e r e c o n f ir m e d l a t e r b y M r Vic t o r o f t h e C h a i n
S u p p ly M a n a g e m e n t . Th e r e is n o e v i d e n c e th a t a n y
q u a n ti ti e s w e r e c o n s i d e r e d a t th e s i g n i n g o f th e
agreement as the schedule to Annexure B was not
c o m p le t e d . ”
10

T h a t is m y i n s e r t C h a ir.
“ Tw o :

they

c o n tr a c t.

d id

Three:

not

accept

the

m a in t e n a n c e

they took one hospital out

a l le g in g t h a t i t is p a r t o f t h e E a s te r n C a p e a n d n o t
K Z N . N o t s u b s ti t u ti n g f o r a n o th e r o n e e tc e t e r a . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t - w h a t w a s t h e p o i n t a b o u t th e ti m e w h e n t h e
a g r e e m e n t w a s s i g n e d a n d t h e - a n d th e ti m i n g o f th e e m a il o r i t s
c o n te n ts ?
20

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, th is is n o w - th is e m a il is n o w t h e fir s t ti m e I c a n
fi n d t h e r e f e r e n c e s to R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n t s a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W h e t h e r t h e y - a n d i t is n o w li n k i n g t h e m to t h is c o n tr a c t,
because …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - a n d is i t n o t i n te r e s t in g t h a t R o w m o o r is

Page 75 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
R o w m o o r In v e s t m e n ts a n d i f y o u t h i n k a b o u t m a r k e ti n g .
v e r y d iv e r s e t h i n g s .

It seems to

If you are an investment company then you do

m a r k e t in g fo r o t h e r - f o r o th e r p e o p l e .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I - I t h i n k R o w m o o r In v e s t m e n ts w a s j u s t t h e n a m e
o f th e s h e l f c o m p a n y t h a t - t h a t w a s p u r c h a s e d .

I did not draw any

in f e r e n c e fr o m t h e n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t - b u t i f y o u - i f - i f y o u w a n t to - i f y o u w a n t a
v e h ic l e f o r a m a r k e ti n g b u s i n e s s .

I do not think you - you collect

in v e s t m e n t .
10

M R W H I T E : I - I w o u l d a g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: So now …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t - b u t s t il l I t h i n k I a m - I a m s ti ll tr y i n g t o g e t
the point.

M a y b e - m a y b e I a m o v e r e m p h a s is in g , b u t I j u s t w a n t t o

m a k e s u r e t h a t I d o n o t m is s a n i m p o r t a n t p o i n t t h a t y o u m a y h a v e b e e n
tr y i n g t o m a k e . T h a t - a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e c o n tr a c t w a s s i g n e d o n e a r l ie r o n t h a t p a r ti c u la r d a y a n d t h e r e w a s t h is e m a il .
20

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, t h e p o i n t I w a s tr y in g to m a k e is th a t s u d d e n ly
t h is r e la t io n s h ip s e e m s t o c o m e t o l ig h t .

I t i s n o w b e i n g r e f e r r e d to

in t e r n a ll y w i th in I n ta k a a n d - s o m y in f e r e n c e is t h a t t h e s i g n i n g o f th e
c o n tr a c t t o O x i n t a k a s w a s in o n e w a y o r a n o th e r l i n k e d t o R o w m o o r
I n v e s t m e n t s , b e c a u s e w h y d o e s h e n o w r e fe r t o it a n d t h e i s s u e s th a t
I n t a k a w a s n o t h a p p y a b o u t a r o u n d t h e q u a n ti t ie s t h e m a i n te n a n c e

Page 76 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
c o n tr a c ts e t c e t e r a .
He now refers to that and says we now need to check what
w e w e r e d is c u s s i n g w it h R o w m o o r r e l a ti n g t o t h i s c o n tr a c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
MR WHITE:

W h e r e a s D r S a v o i h a s s a i d t h e m o n ie s t h a t w e r e p a i d t o

R o w m o o r r e l a t e t o th e w a t e r p u r i fi c a t io n p la n ts .

W h e r e a s it n o w

a p p e a r s th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y e s . O h . O k a y. N o . I t h i n k …
MR WHITE: That - that - so and based on the timing of those payments
10

le a d i n g u p t o t h e s ig n in g o f th is c o n tr a c t .

I t is m y o p i n i o n C h a ir th a t

t h o s e p a y m e n ts l in k - li n k e d t o th is c o n tr a c t n o t t o s o m e t h in g t h a t
h a p p e n e d m o r e t h a n a y e a r p r io r t o th is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k in g is s i m p l y t h is . Th e f a c t
t h a t th is e m a i l w h i c h is s e n t a f e w h o u r s a f t e r th e s ig n in g o f th e
c o n tr a c t t h a t r e la t e s t o O x in t a k a .

Th e f a c t t h a t R o w a n I n v e s t m e n ts -

R o w - R o w m o o r In v e s t m e n t s is m e n t io n e d i n r e l a ti o n to t h a t c o n tr a c t
a n d n o t i n r e l a ti o n t o Wa t a k a - to t h e W a ta k a c o n t r a c t …
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s in c o n s is t e n t w i t h D r S a v o i ’s v e r s i o n t h a t th o s e tw o
20

p a y m e n t s r e l a te t o R o w m o o r ’s r o l e i n m a r k e ti n g th e - o r i s i n c o n s i s t e n t
w i t h D r S a v o i ’s v e r s i o n t h a t i t w a s p a y m e n t c o n n e c t e d w i t h W a t a k a .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W h y m e n ti o n i t i n r e l a ti o n t o O x i n t a k a if R o w m o o r
r e l a t e s t o W a t a k a . U n l e s s o f c o u r s e - u n le s s o f c o u r s e , b e c a u s e I t h in k
h is a ff id a v i t - th a t i s D r S a v o i ’s a ffi d a v i t s e e m s t o s u g g e s t t h a t

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
R o w m o o r o r M r M k h w a n a z i w a s g o i n g to m a r k e t t h e ir p r o d u c ts - t h e ir
p r o d u c ts .
U n l e s s s o m e w h e r e h e s a y s h e a ls o - a ls o m a r k e t e d t h i s
O x i n t a k a a n d t h o s e p a y m e n ts i n c l u d e d h i s w o r k t h a t h e d i d i n r e l a ti o n
to this, but he does not say that.
M R W H I T E : C h a ir h e d o e s n o t - h e d o e s n o t s a y t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE:
can see.
10

B u t a ls o t h e - M r M k h w a n a z i is n o t in v o lv e d fr o m w h a t I

D r S a v o i d e a lt d i r e c t ly w i t h t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t a t t h e

ti m e s e t t in g t h e s p e c i fic a ti o n s . S o a n y i n v o l v e m e n t - s o C h a ir t h e o n l y
in v o lv e m e n t I c a n s e e o f M r M k h w a n a z i i s t h a t h e is t h e b o y fr i e n d o f
t h e M E C o f H e a l th a t t h e ti m e w h o a s s i s t e d in g e t t in g t h e c o n tr a c t
s ig n e d a n d th e p a y m e n ts a r e m a d e o v e r t h a t t i m e p e r i o d w h e r e h e r
in v o lv e m e n t w a s v e r y c l e a r t h a t D r S a v o i w a s u s in g h e r i n fl u e n c e to g e t
t h e c o n tr a c t s i g n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d C h a ir fo r c la r it y w h a t t h e s t a ff a r e t o l d is
t h a t I a m c o m p l a i n in g a b o u t t h e t e r m s o f t h e c o n tr a c t t h a t I e v e n t u a l ly
got and he says:

20

“ I b e l i e v e it is n e c e s s a r y a n d i m p o r t a n t t o c h e c k th e
d r a f t s c o n tr a c t s e n t t o R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts .

It

m u s t b e tr a n s m i t te d t o R o w m o o r a n d th e r e a r e a l o t
o f t h in g s a g r e e d w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th a n d
K w a Z u l u - N a t a l t h a t w e r e g o i n g t o h a p p e n a n d d id
not happen.”

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
And he says:
“ I h a v e g o t t h e w r o n g q u a n ti ti e s . T h e y h a v e n o t g o t
a m a i n te n a n c e c o n tr a c t . ”
And he complains.

That - now I am going to refer to

s o m e t h i n g t h a t o c c u r s th e d a y a f te r t h e c o n tr a c t is s i g n e d a n d I w o u l d
lik e to r e f e r y o u C h a ir to p a g e 6 - 7 - 3 p a r a g r a p h 2 0 . Yo u s a y t h e r e t h a t :
“Ms Nkonyeni

was

13 December 2007

present
when

at
the

th e

hospital

agreem ent

on
was

s ig n e d . ”
10

Yo u th e n r e f e r t o a n S M S s e n t t h e f o l l o w in g d a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h o w r i t e s h e r e ? I s i t t h e s a m e e m a il o r
w h a t i s h is a n d w h o d o e s - i s i t g o in g to ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is - i t i s - w e a r e g o i n g t o r e fe r t o a n S M S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o p a r a g r a p h 2 0 i s M r W h i t e r e c o r d in g o n

page 6-7-3.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: He records:
“Peggy Nkonyeni was present at the IALC Hospital
20

on the 13th …”
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l h a n g o n . H a n g o n . Th e - t h is is M r W h i t e in h is
r e p o r t r e c o r d i n g t h a t Ms P e g g y N k o n y e n i w a s p r e s e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: On the 13th …

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is j u s t p a r t o f th e r e p o r t a n d …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ex a c t ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n th a t - i n th a t p a r a g r a p h h e q u o te s a n S M S o r

something.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ex a c t ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I t is j u s t i m p o r ta n t th a t a s w e g o t o w h a t e v e r

p a g e is c l e a r w h a t d o c u m e n t i t is fr o m w h o m t o w h o m …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a b o u t w h a t.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

So you record that she was present at the

h o s p i ta l o n 1 3 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 7 w h e n th e a g r e e m e n t w a s - w a s s ig n e d .
C a n y o u t e l l t h e c o u r t w h a t y o u d is c o v e r e d fr o m y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s
r e fe r r e d t o i n th a t - in p a r a g r a p h 2 0 o f y o u r r e p o r t h a p p e n e d t h e v e r y
next day - 14 December 2007?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir, m a y b e j u s t to c o m e b a c k t o t h e f a c t t h a t

Ms Nkonyeni was present.

So people that were part of the process

w h e r e t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s s ig n e d s a i d M s N k o n y e n i w a s p r e s e n t i n th e
20

r o o m , b u t s h e s a t a t t h e o t h e r e n d o f t h e t a k e . S h e w a s n o t p a r t o f th e
d is c u s s io n s a n d t h a t w a s a t t h e I n k o s i A lb e r t L u t h u l i H o s p i t a l i n - i n
D u r b a n . O n th e f o l lo w i n g d a y a f te r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is - t h a t is a n in t e r e s ti n g v e n u e t o g o a n d s i g n a
c o n tr a c t a t .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir …

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON:

O n e w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t th e y w o u ld g o to th e

d e p a r t m e n t’s o ff ic e s .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, i t - i t m a y s o u n d s t r a n g e , b u t I - in t h e c o u r s e o f

t h e s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s w e h a d a n u m b e r o f m e e ti n g s a t t h a t h o s p i ta l
c o m p le x , b e c a u s e th e y h a v e a n a d m i n is tr a ti o n w i n g w h e r e t h e y h a v e a
number of boardrooms.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR WHITE:

S o i t i s - i t s e e m s to b e u s e d f o r m e e ti n g s b y t h e

D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h o n a - o n a f a i r ly r e g u l a r b a s is . S o i t w a s n o t …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R W H I T E : I t d o e s h a p p e n . It is n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
MR WHITE: Because I attended …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : S i m i la r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

No.

I a m ju s t t h i n k i n g t h a t I a m u n d e r t h e

i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e h e a d q u a r t e r s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o u l d b e i n
P i e t e r m a r i tz b u r g , b e c a u s e t h a t is th e c a p i t a l o f t h e p r o v i n c e a n d …
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I n k o s i A l b e r t L u t h u l i H o s p i ta l i s i n D u r b a n .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, b u t y o u s a y t h e r e - t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n fa c il i ti e s

w h ic h m ig h t b e a tt r a c t iv e fo r u s e b y th e d e p a r t m e n t ?
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e r e is a n a d m in is tr a ti o n b l o c k w it h a

number of boardrooms.

Page 81 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M R W H I T E : T h a t a r e u s e d f o r m e e ti n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h e - t h e d a y f o l lo w in g t h e s i g n in g o f t h a t

c o n tr a c t fo r t h e O x i n t a k a s .

T h e r e w a s a n S M S s e n t to D r S a v o i .

A

c o p y o f t h a t w a s fo u n d in I n ta k a ’s r e c o r d s a n d i t r e a d s a s f o l l o w s .
CHAIRPERSON: Sent by?
M R W H I T E : M s N k o n y e n i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
10

MR WHITE: It says:
“Doc!

A c o n tr a c t w a s s i g n e d y e s te r d a y a lt h o u g h

y o u r g u y s w e r e n o t h a p p y w it h m a in t e n a n c e a n d a
few other things.

Buy they were crushed because

o f w h a t w a s r e fl e c t e d i n th e b i d d o c u m e n t.

Next

ti m e w e w i ll h a v e to b e m o r e c a r e f u l a n d p e r h a p s
you need to cancel the donation since you are
lo s i n g o n m a i n t e n a n c e .

What do you suggest?

Peggy”
C h a ir th a t i s j u s t a v e r y, v e r y u n u s u a l S M S t o b e s e n t .
20

It

a l m o s t l o o k s fr o m r e a d i n g t h a t - t h a t S M S t h a t Ms N k o n y e n i i s m o r e
c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e w e l fa r e o f I n ta k a a n d D r S a v o i t h a n s h e i s a b o u t
the department she is the MEC of.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And more …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d t h e r e f e r e n c e t o d o n a t io n ?

Page 82 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir, I d o n o t k n o w.

Everybody has asked me that

q u e s t io n . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t d o n a t i o n s h e i s r e f e r r in g to .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o i t m a y b e a d o n a t io n I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d - d id y o u a s k D r S a v o i w h a t …
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h e y …
CHAIRPERSON: Donation …
M R W H I T E : T h e y w e r e a l l a c c u s e d i n t h e m a t t e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t - a t th a t s ta g e . S o y o u n e v e r g o t a c h a n c e t o - t o
10

ask him?
M R W H I T E : I d i d n o t - d i d n o t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
M R W H I T E : O r t h e y w e r e s u s p e c ts a t t h i s s t a g e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W h e n w e d i d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d M r W h i te t h e w a y t h a t I r e a d i t is t h a t w e
k n o w fr o m th e i n te r n a l m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w e w e r e r e f e r r i n g to e a r li e r
t h a t Mr S a v o i w a s n o t h a p p y th a t h e h a d t o m a i n t a in th e s e o x y g e n

20

p u r i fi c a t io n p l a n ts i n t e r m s o f th e f i n a l a g r e e m e n t a n d i t is q u it e c l e a r
t h a t w o u l d b e a c o s t i m p l ic a t i o n t o h i m i f h e w e r e t o - th is is - I a m
d e d u c in g .
T h e r e w o u ld b e a c o s t i m p l ic a ti o n t o h i m i f h e h a d t o b e a r t h e
c o s t o f m a i n t e n a n c e a n d I a s s u m e th a t w h e n s h e s a y s b u y. T h e m e a n s
b u t a n d a f e w o t h e r t h i n g s , b u t th e y w e r e c r u s h e d b e c a u s e o f w h a t w a s

Page 83 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
r e fl e c t e d in t h e b i d d o c u m e n t .

I - a n d y o u c a n te ll m e i f y o u a g r e e -

c a n o n ly r e a d th a t t o m e a n th a t fr o m w h a t w a s s a i d in th e b id d o c u m e n t
it

appeared

that

they

would

have

to

assume

r e s p o n s i b il it y

for

m a in t e n a n c e , b u t th e n w h a t is m o r e i m p o r t a n t is s h e s a y s :
“ N e x t t i m e w e w i ll h a v e t o b e m o r e c a r e fu l . ”
A n d t h e n w h a t c a n o n e o n ly d e d u c e f r o m t h is . Yo u h a v e n o w
g o t to in c u r g r e a t e r c o s ts , b e c a u s e y o u a r e i n c u r r i n g m a i n te n a n c e . S o
she says:
“ P e r h a p s y o u n e e d to c a n c e l t h e d o n a ti o n .
10

y o u a r e l o s i n g o n m a i n te n a n c e .

Si n c e

What do you

suggest?”
S h e i s s a y i n g I c a n u n d e r s ta n d m a y b e y o u d o n o t w a n t to
m a k e s u c h a b ig a d o n a t i o n . I c a n n o t r e a d i t a n y o t h e r w a y.
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, m a y b e t h a t is w h y in o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e d i d n o t

fi n d t h is d o n a t i o n if t h e r e w a s g o in g to b e o n e o r a p a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir, m a y b e i f t h a t is t h e i n t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h is S M S

m a y b e t h a t i s w h y w e d id n o t i d e n ti f y a f u r th e r p a y m e n t t o a n y b o d y,
b e c a u s e th e d e c is i o n w a s m a d e I a m n o t g o i n g t o m a k e - l o o s e ly c a l l i t
20

- a d o n a ti o n , b e c a u s e t h e c o n tr a c t w a s n o t a s f a v o u r a b le a s I o r i g i n a l ly
a n t ic i p a te d .
CHAIRPERSON:

M s - Ms W e n tz e l ju s t r e p e a t t h e in t e r p r e t a t io n t h a t

you attach to it. Let me …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Understand it.

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. J u s t b e a r w it h m e . I a m j u s t g o i n g
to go back to it. Now she says:
“ D o c ! T h e c o n tr a c t w a s s i g n e d y e s t e r d a y a l t h o u g h
y o u r g u y s w e r e n o t h a p p y w it h m a in t e n a n c e a n d a
f e w o th e r t h i n g s . ”
Buy I read as but.
“But they were …”
I think it should be crushed.

P e r h a p s w i th a C a n d S ,

b e c a u s e i t is C - R - U - C - H - E - D .
10

“…because

of

what

was

r e f l e c te d

in

the

b id

document.”
I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t o m e a n th a t t h e y w e r e n o t h a p p y w i t h
h a v i n g t o a s s u m e r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r m a i n t e n a n c e .

W e k n o w fr o m t h e

e a r l ie r d o c u m e n ts t h is i s - t h is w a s o n e o f t h e c o n t e n ti o u s is s u e s . W h o
w a s g o in g to b e a r r e s p o n s ib il i ty fo r m a in t e n a n c e a n d th e y a r e n o t
h a p p y t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y i t is f o u n d th a t S a v o i w h o is t h e o w n e r
o f t h e m a c h i n e n e e d s t o b e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r i ts o w n m a i n t e n a n c e .
W h a t h e w a n te d t o d o i s le a s e t h e o x y g e n , b u t th e n a l s o
m a k e th e d e p a r t m e n t p a y fo r th e m a i n t e n a n c e o f th e m a c h i n e .
20

So he

did not have that and when she says:
“ T h e y w e r e c r u s h e d , b e c a u s e o f w h a t w a s r e fl e c t e d
in t h e b i d d o c u m e n t . ”
I r e a d t h a t t o m e a n t h a t th e b i d d o c u m e n t s p e c i f ie d th a t t h e y
w o u ld h a v e t o b e r e s p o n s i b le f o r m a i n te n a n c e . S o th a t w a s a p r o b l e m .
T h e n e x t t h in g i s s h e s a y s …

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s - h a s s o m e b o d y l o o k e d a t th e b i d d o c u m e n t a n d
s e e w h e th e r i t w o u ld s u p p o r t t h a t ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

Th e - t h e d o c u m e n t d id s a y th e b i d

s p e c i f ic a ti o n s s a i d th a t t h e s u p p l ie r w o u l d b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e
m a in t e n a n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. O k a y.
M R W H I T E : B u t In t a k a a f t e r b e in g a w a r d e d d id n o t w a n t t h a t - th e y d i d
n o t w a n t th a t i n th e fi n a l c o n t r a c t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O k a y. S o - s o w h a t - w a s w h a t y o u w e r e
s a y in g t h e r e i s t h a t w h e n M s N k o n y e n i s a y s in t h e e m a il :
“ … y o u r g u y s w e r e n o t h a p p y w i t h m a i n te n a n c e a n d
a f e w o t h e r t h in g s … ”
L e t u s s ti c k w i t h m a i n te n a n c e . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t to m e a n
t h a t t h e y d i d n o t w a n t In t a k a t o b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r m a i n t e n a n c e a n d
t h e ir s t a n c e w a s c o n tr a r y to t h e b id s p e c i f ic a ti o n , b e c a u s e t h e b id
s p e c i f ic a ti o n r e q u ir e d I n t a k a t o b e r e s p o n s ib le fo r th a t . S o t h e y d i d n o t
g e t t h a t a n d t h e r e a s o n t h e y d i d n o t g e t t h a t is b e c a u s e o f t h e b i d
document?

20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Okay and you - and - and you say you can - you
c a n g o a l o n g w i t h t h a t i n t e r p r e ta t io n ?
M R W H I T E : I c a n c o n f ir m t h a t i s t h e f a c t s C h a ir. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n fo ll o w i n g o n th a t …

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir, m y s u b m is s io n is th a t w h a t i s s a i d n o w
is I k n o w y o u w a n t e d t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o p a y fo r m a i n te n a n c e .

Now I

u n d e r s t a n d a n d I a m - w e h a v e t o b e m o r e c a r e f u l n e x t ti m e . Yo u a r e
g o i n g to h a v e t o p a y fo r t h e m a i n t e n a n c e . S o t h e r e is g o i n g t o b e a n
e x tr a c o s t.

Yo u a r e n o t g o in g to g e t a s m u c h o u t o f th is d e a l a s y o u

a n t ic i p a te d a n d s o w h a t d o e s s h e o ff e r h i m . S h e s a y s :
“ P e r h a p s y o u n e e d to c a n c e l t h e d o n a ti o n .
y o u a r e l o s i n g o n m a i n te n a n c e .

Si n c e

What do you

suggest? Peggy”

10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w h a t d i d y o u s a y t o t h a t i n t e r p r e t a ti o n , I k n o w

a b o u t t h e f ir s t p a r t , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir w e d i d n ’ t fi n d a n y s u b s e q u e n t p a y m e n t t h a t w a s
made.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o m y o n ly c o n c l u s i o n c o u l d b e t h a t i f th e r e h a d b e e n a n
a g r e e m e n t t o m a k e a p a y m e n t th a t m a y b e it w a s c a n c e ll e d b e c a u s e t h e
c o n tr a c t w a s n ’ t a s l u c r a t iv e a s I n ta k a o r ig i n a ll y a n ti c i p a t e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .

N o w w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d

t h e r e f e r e n c e to “ w e ” t o b e r e f e r r i n g t o , w e ’ll h a v e t o b e m o r e c a r e fu l ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir my in t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h a t w a s t h a t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON: Who was the “we”?
MR WHITE:

I t w a s r e f e r r i n g to h e r s e l f a n d I n t a k a , a s i n w e to g e th e r,

w i ll h a v e t o b e m o r e c a r e f u l n e x t ti m e .

S o s h e a l m o s t w a s p u t ti n g

h e r s e l f a s p a r t o f I n t a k a r a t h e r t h a n a s th e p o li ti c a l H e a d o f th e

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
D e p a r t m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b e c a u s e t h e o n e o p ti o n i s t h a t s h e w a s t a lk i n g

a b o u t h e r D e p a r t m e n t , th e o t h e r o p ti o n i s t h a t s h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t
h e r s e l f o n th e o n e h a n d o r h e r s e lf a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t o n t h e o n e h a n d
a n d In t a k a a n d D r S a v o i a n d I n t a k a o n t h e o th e r b u t y o u s a y, i f o n e
lo o k s a t t h e c o n te x t y o u d o n ’ t t h i n k i t ’s a r e f e r e n c e t o h e r a n d t h e
D e p a r t m e n t?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t d o e s n ’ t a c t u a ll y m a tt e r w h ic h v a r ia t i o n o f th a t i t is ,
it ’s w r o n g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR

WHITE:

If

i t ’s

her

and

the

Department,

he

p e r s o n a l ly … . [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y s h o u l d n o t b e w o r k in g t o g e t h e r t h e y s h o u ld n o t

b e a u n it , ja .
MR WHITE:

B e c a u s e w h y w o u ld t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a v e t o b e m o r e

c a r e fu l th a t t h e y g o t a b e t te r d e a l th a n t h e s u p p li e r w a n t e d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: So she should be happy for the Department not need to be
m o r e c a r e fu l I – s o I c a n g iv e a b e t te r d e a l to t h e s u p p l ie r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u a r e s a y i n g , ir r e s p e c ti v e o f w h e th e r s h e w a s

r e fe r r i n g t o h e r s e l f a n d D r S a v o i o r h e r s e l f a n d D r S a v o i a n d I n t a k a o r
s h e in c l u d e d t h e D e p a r t m e n t o r s h e w a s m e a n in g h e r s e l f a n d t h e
D e p a r t m e n t i t w a s s i m p ly w r o n g , t h e y c o u l d n ’ t b e s p o k e n a b o u t a s a
u n i t , t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d In t a k a o r h e r s e lf a n d In t a k a o r D r S a v o i ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t b e c a u s e C h a i r w h e n it c o m e s t o m a in t e n a n c e h e r

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
o n ly i n te r e s t s h o u ld h a v e b e e n th e D e p a r t m e n t a n d w h a t is i t g o i n g to
cost the Department.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s h e s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n m o a n i n g a b o u t th e f a c t
t h a t I n t a k a – D r S a v o i ’s g u y s d i d n ’ t g e t w h a t t h e y w a n t e d a b o u t
m a in t e n a n c e .
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s h e s e e m s t o h a v e b e e n m o a n i n g a b o u t th a t .
M R W H I T E : I a g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e – t h e e n d r e s u l t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t is i n f a v o u r o f
10

h e r d e p a r t m e n t b u t s h e s e e m s to l a m e n t t h a t a s i f s h e w o u ld h a v e b e e n
h a p p i e r if t h e e n d r e s u l t w a s t h a t I n t a k a g o t it s w a y w h i c h w o u ld h a v e
b e e n t h e d e p a r t m e n t m u s t b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r m a i n te n a n c e a n d t h a t’s
n o t w h a t s h e s h o u l d h a v e s t o o d f o r.
MR WHITE: I agree.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C h a ir m y s u b m i s s i o n t o y o u is t h a t th e

in f e r e n c e i s – i t’s in e s c a p a b l e , t h a t th e “w e ” r e fe r r e d t o is P e g g y
N k o n y e n i a n d t h e p e r s o n s h e c a lls d o c .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And the reason for that is that after saying I
20

c o u l d n ’ t g e t t h e d e p a r t m e n t to p a y f o r m a i n te n a n c e b e c a u s e o f w h a t
w a s i n t h e b i d d o c u m e n ts , s h e t i e s t h e s t a te m e n t , n e x t ti m e w e ’ll h a v e
t o b e m o r e c a r e f u l , w i t h i t f o l lo w s a n d in t h e v e r y s a m e s e n te n c e s h e
s a y s a n d p e r h a p s y o u n e e d t o c a n c e l t h e d o n a t io n s in c e y o u ’r e l o s in g
m a in t e n a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o s h e r e g r e ts t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t i n s i s te d t h a t

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
Intaka

must

be

r e s p o n s i b le

for

maintenance

and

she

w a n ts

to

c o m p e n s a t e fo r t h a t a n d s h e s a y s , n e x t t i m e w e ’l l n e e d to b e m o r e
c a r e fu l , w h i c h s e e m s t o s u g g e s t , n e x t ti m e t h e r e i s a n y t h i n g li k e t h is
w e m u s t b e c a r e f u l a b o u t th e b i d s p e c i f ic a t io n s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir, i t c a n o n ly m e a n t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h is t i m e – b e c a u s e t h is ti m e t h e r e a s o n w h y
w e a r e e n d i n g w i th t h is is b e c a u s e th e b i d s p e c i f ic a ti o n w a s c le a r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e g e ts t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t , th a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

E x a c tly C h a ir w i t h r e s p e c t it c a n h a v e n o

o th e r m e a n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w C h a ir I c a n m a k e o n e p o in t a n d t h a t i s

t h a t p e r h a p s s h e ’s n o t q u i te a s m a g n a n i m o u s a s i t w o u l d a p p e a r
b e c a u s e w e k n o w t h a t h e r b o y fr i e n d ’s c o m p a n y R o w m o o r w a s p a i d a
m il li o n r a n d i n c h a n t e r s o f R 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 e a c h a n d I’ d li k e t o a s k Mr
W h i t e a t t h is s t a g e , h a d t h o s e p a y m e n ts b e e n m a d e ?
M R W H I T E : T h e y h a d b e e n m a d e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g b e f o r e , a r e y o u a b le t o r e m e m b e r ?
20

M R W H I T E : S o th e y w e r e m a d e o n t h e 3 0 t h o f A u g u s t a n d th e 2 3 r d o f
N o v e m b e r, s o o n e p a y m e n t w a s s o m e t h r e e w e e k s p r i o r t o t h is a n d t h e
o th e r o n e w a s t h r e e m o n t h s p r i o r t o t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it w o u l d b e d i ff ic u l t – i f M r Mk h w a n a z i w a s s t il l
h e r r o m a n ti c p a r tn e r i t w o u l d b e d i ffi c u l t t o t h in k t h a t s h e w a s n o t
a w a r e o f t h o s e p a y m e n ts th r e e m o n th s l a t e r.

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M R W H I T E : I a g r e e C h a ir a n d s h e w a s h a v in g o n g o i n g m e e ti n g s d u r i n g
that period with Dr Savoi and Mr Mkhwanazi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e t w e e n t h e p a y m e n t d a t e s a n d th is d a t e .
M R W H I T E : Ar o u n d – b e fo r e , d u r i n g a n d a f te r t h a t p e r i o d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir m a y b e I c o u l d j u s t r e fe r to a s u m m a r y o f t h o s e

m e e ti n g s , j u s t th e d a t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i f I c o u ld ju s t r e f e r to t h a t i n R R 4 C a t p a g e 1 2 6 8 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s E x h i b i t R R 4 C p a g e 1 2 6 8 y e s .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h a t ’s a s u m m a r y b a s e d o n t h e r e c o r d s fr o m

I n t a k a t h a t I c o u l d f in d w h e r e m e e ti n g s w e r e s c h e d u l e d i n D r S a v o i ’s
d i a r y w i t h Ms N k o n y e n i o r M r Mk h w a n a z i .

So Char that summary in

t h a t t a b l e I’v e i n t e r p r e te d w h e r e i t r e fe r s t o P e g g y to b e a r e f e r e n c e t o
M s P e g g y N k o n y e n i , w h e r e i t r e f e r s t o L i n d e t o a r e fe r e n c e to M r
M k h w a n a z i w h o , i n m a n y in s t a n c e s i s ju s t r e f e r r e d t o a s L i n d e b u t i f
y o u l o o k i n l in e s e v e n o n t h e 1 0 t h o f J u l y 2 0 0 7 … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a j u s t r e a d t h e m o u t a l l t h o s e r e le v a n t o n e s , l e t ’s g e t
t h e m i n to t h e tr a n s c r i p t .
20

M R W H I T E : O k a y s o C h a ir o n t h e 1 8 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 0 1 7 t h e r e w a s a
m e e ti n g w i t h D r B u s i N y e m b e z i a n d t h e M E C f o r H e a l t h f o r K w a - Z u l u
N a t a l a t o u r I n ta k a p r e m i s e s , s o t h a t M E C a t t h e ti m e w a s Ms P e g g y
N k o n y e n i. O n th e 1 2 t h o f A p r il 2 0 0 7 … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y a g a in , j u s t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w h o e v e r r e a d s th e
tr a n s c r ip t k n o w s th is i s n o w D r – th is r e l a te s t o m e e ti n g s b e t w e e n D r

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S a v o i a n d t h e p e o p le in d ic a t e d o n th is p a g e , o k a y c o n ti n u e .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o r r y C h a ir a n d i t c o m e s fr o m D r S a v o i’s

e l e c tr o n ic d i a r y.
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ye s , o k a y.

S o t h e 1 2 t h o f A p r i l 2 0 0 7 M E C P e g g y in C T, w h ic h I ’v e

in t e r p r e t e d t o b e C a p e To w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R W H I T E : T h e 1 3 t h o f A p r il M E C P e g g y in C a p e To w n , t h e 4 t h o f M a y
P e g g y a n d L in d e i n C a p e To w n .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ye s .

T h e 7 t h o f J u n e 2 0 0 7 L i n d e p l u s M E C P e g g y, th e 2 1 s t o f

J u n e 2 0 0 7 c o l le c t L i n d e a n d P e g g y a n d th e n t h e r e ’s a f u r th e r r e f e r e n c e
t o m e e ti n g w i t h D r S h a b ir, L i n d e a n d P e g g y, D r S h a b ir w a s f r o m t h e
Northern Cape Department of Health.

O n t h e 1 0 t h o f J u ly – s o C h a ir

ju s t t o p u t i t i n t o t h e c o n t e x t , t h e c o n t r a c t f o r t h e O x in t a k a ’s , t h e b i d
a d j u d ic a ti o n c o m m i t t e e a n d t h e fi n a l c l e a r a n c e fr o m t h e a p p e a ls th a t
w a s a c c e p t e d o n t h e 2 6 t h o f J u n e 2 0 0 7 . S o u p u n til l in e s ix , t h e 2 1 s t o f
20

J u n e t h a t i s b e f o r e th e O x i n ta k a a w a r d is m a d e . S o s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t
is t h e p e r io d w h e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h is tr y i n g t o n e g o t ia t e th e
t e r m s w i t h I n t a k a t h a t l e d t o t h e s i g n in g o f t h e c o n t r a c t o n t h e 1 3 t h o f
D e c e m b e r.

S o d u r i n g t h a t n e g o ti a ti o n p e r io d th e r e ’s n o w a m e e t i n g o n

the

of

10th

July

2007,

Linde

and

To w n … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

Page 92 of 212

MEC

Peggy

in

Cape

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y I j u s t w a n t to ta k e y o u b a c k to i t e m s i x a t 2 1
J u n e 2 0 0 7 i t s a y s 9 o ’ c l o c k c o l le c t L i n d e a n d P e g g y d o y o u k n o w
w h e t h e r t h a t m e a n s c o ll e c t th e m fr o m t h e a ir p o r t o r w h a t ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t ’s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y c o n ti n u e – t h a t is o n 2 1 J u n e 2 0 0 7 o k a y

c o n ti n u e .
MR WHITE:

S o 1 0 J u ly 2 0 0 7 is L i n d e M k h w a n a z i a n d M E C P e g g y o n

t h e 11 t h o f J u ly 2 0 0 7 L in d e M E C P e g g y. C h a ir s o m e th r e e w e e k s la t e r,
o n t h e 3 r d o f A u g u s t t h e fi r s t R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 p a y m e n t i s m a d e t o R o w m o o r
10

Investments.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s R 6 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
MR WHITE:

S o r r y C h a ir t h a t’s j u s t a b a d p h o to c o p y b u t t h e o r i g i n a l

o n e , i t ’s R 5 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t ’s R 5 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 ?
M R W H I T E : I t’s R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y th is w a s w r i t te n in t h e d i a r y ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir t h is w a s n o t i n th e d i a r y I j u s t p u t i t i n a m o n g s t
t h is … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh for convenience.
20

M R W H I T E : S o th a t y o u c a n s e e t h e d a te s th e p a y m e n t s w e r e m a d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : O n t h e 1 6 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 0 7 , P e g g y Y i n C a p e To w n , 1 7 t h o f
A u g u s t P e g g y Y i n C a p e To w n … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : To b e f a ir i t s a y s – I w o u l d r e a d i t a s , P e g g y Y
in C a p e To w n t o b e c o n fir m e d , th a t ’s C O N F.

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
MR

WHITE:

Correct

C h a ir

that

would

p r o b a b ly

be

correct

in t e r p r e t a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : Th e n o n th e 1 3 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 0 7 M E C P e g g y L i n d e i n C a p e
To w n … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y S e p t e m b e r, 3 S e p t e m b e r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
MR WHITE: 3 September 2007.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE:
10

T h e 1 0 O c to b e r 2 0 0 7 L i n d e Y M E C P e g g y a t S t e e n b e r g .

C h a ir S t e e n b e r g is a h o t e l i n C a p e To w n , w e c o n fi r m t h e y s ta y e d a t t h a t
hotel.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE:

8 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 7 M E C P e g g y i n C a p e To w n , s o m e

t w o w e e k s l a te r … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y d id y o u d o 1 4 – fr o m 5 to 6 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 7
a c c o m m o d a ti o n a t S t e e n b e r g H o t e l ?
MR WHITE: That was correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o v e r e d th a t ?
M R W H I T E : I d id n ’t r e a d t h a t li n e o u t , t h a t w a s a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r M r
20

L M k h w a n a z i a n d M s O N k o n y e n i , th e n o n t h e 8 t h … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

T h is o n e s a y s O , I ta k e i t , m a y b e i t ’s a m is ta k e o r

what?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir th a t is w h a t w a s i n th e d ia r y b u t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t w a s i n th e d ia r y ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t t h e o n ly N k o n y e n i t h a t ’s b e e n r e f e r r e d to is t h e
MEC?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m m o k a y.
M R W H I T E : T h e n t h e r e ’s a fu r th e r – I j u s t i n s e r t e d s o t h a t w e c a n s e e
t h e r e le v a n c e o f th e d a te s o f t h e p a y m e n t , o n t h e 2 3 r d o f N o v e m b e r w a s
t h e s e c o n d p a y m e n t o f R 5 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 t o R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts a n d th e n
C h a ir t h e r e ’s n o o t h e r m e e ti n g s i n C a p e To w n u n ti l t h e f o ll o w i n g y e a r
o n t h e 1 8 t h o f F e b r u a r y a n d th a t w a s a c t u a l ly a m e e ti n g i n D u r b a n a n d
10

t h e n t h e r e ’s a n o th e r m e e t in g m u c h l a te r i n 2 0 0 8 . S o C h a ir w h a t I w a s
tr y i n g t o s h o w b y t h a t s u m m a r y is t o s h o w t h a t th e r e w a s , a l m o s t
m o n th ly m e e ti n g s b e t w e e n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Between Dr Savoi and the MEC Nkonyeni and Mr

Linde Mkhwanazi.
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B o t h b e f o r e t h e a w a r d o f th e c o n t r a c t a n d a f te r ?
M R W H I T E : A n d a f te r … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d u r in g n e g o ti a ti o n s ?
M R W H I T E : To t h e s i g n i n g o f t h e c o n tr a c t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w i t h t h i s – i f t h i s i s t r u e th e n i t w il l b e d i ffic u lt t o
t h i n k th a t Ms N k o n y e n i w a s n o t a w a r e o f th e p a y m e n t to R o w m o o r a t
t h e ti m e o f s e n d i n g t h e e m a i l t h a t w e w e r e d e a li n g w i t h e a r l i e r o n
w h e r e s h e w a s l a m e n ti n g t h e f a c t t h a t t h e I n t a k a g u y s , D r S a v o i’s g u y s
d i d n ’ t g e t w h a t t h e y w a n t e d in r e g a r d t o m a i n te n a n c e .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you and in the course of your

in v e s t i g a t io n s Mr W h i t e d i d y o u f i n d i n t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
H e a lt h m i n u t e s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e n o w g o in g b a c k t o … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o I ’ m d e a li n g w i t h t h i s s ti ll C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I m e a n t h e E x h ib i t a r e w e s t il l d e a li n g w i t h t h e

same?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I ’ m s ti ll d e a li n g w it h p a g e 1 2 6 8 y e s C h a ir
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, I’ d c l o s e d i t , w a s it 1 2 6 8 ?
ADV

SUSAN

WENTZEL:

Ye s

you

p r o b a b ly

don’t

need

t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n ’t n e e d to h a v e a lo o k a t i t, o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D i d y o u , i n th e c o u r s e o f y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s
fi n d m i n u te s in t h e r e c o r d s o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th th a t r e f e r r e d t o
a n y o f th e s e m e e ti n g s ?
MR WHITE:

Chair not the ones that Mr Mkhwanazi, according to the

d i a r y, w a s a ls o p r e s e n t a t , n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u e v e r h a v e a c c e s s t o t h e M E C ’s d i a r y to s e e
20

w h e t h e r t h o s e m e e t in g s w e r e a ls o r e f le c t e d ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I c a n ’ t 1 0 0 % r e c a l l a t t h is p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C a n y o u r e c a ll w h e t h e r o r w h o p a i d f o r th e

a c c o m m o d a ti o n a t t h e S t e e n b e r g H o t e l f o r t h e 5 t h a n d 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r
2 0 0 7 f o r M s N k o n y e n i a n d h e r b o y fr i e n d M r L i n d e M k h w a n a z i ?

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M R W H I T E : C h a ir t o m y r e c o ll e c t io n t h a t w a s p a i d f o r b y I n t a k a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, w h a t is th a t ?
M R W H I T E : M y r e c o ll e c t io n i t w a s p a id f o r b y In t a k a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s th a t th e tr a v e l li n g .
M R W H I T E : T h e a c c o m m o d a t i o n C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e a c c o m m o d a t io n , t h e t w o d a y s a t th e

S t e e n b e r g H o te l i n C a p e To w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y w a s i t p a i d f o r b y I n ta k a ?
M R W H I T E : To m y r e c o l le c ti o n , y e s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e n – s o r r y C h a ir I a m r e f e r r i n g b a c k t o
s o m e t h i n g t h a t f o l l o w s p a g e 1 2 6 9 … [ i n t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e a r e d o n e – w e a r e n o t d o n e w i t h t h a t e m a il

y o u ’ ll s t il l g o b a c k t o i s is n ’ t it ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s I ’ m g o i n g t o g o b a c k t o t h e e m a il b u t I

ju s t w a n t t o p o i n t o u t t h a t a f t e r – i n y o u r r e p o r t a f te r r e f e r r i n g t o t h e s e
m e e ti n g s w e g o b a c k t o w h e r e I s t a r t e d y o u r t e s ti m o n y a n d th a t w a s –
w e ll n o t y o u r te s ti m o n y b u t y o u r te s t i m o n y o n t h is is s u e a n d th a t w a s
w i t h t h e a ff id a v i t b y D r S a v o i a s t o h is e x p l a n a t io n f o r t h e s e p a y m e n t s
20

a n d j u s t t o r e c a p h e s a i d t h a t i t w a s f o r h i m m a r k e t in g n o t th is c o n tr a c t
b u t t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e w a t e r p u r i fi c a t io n p l a n ts . Yo u m a k e t h e p o i n t
o n p a g e 1 2 6 9 th a t t h e m a r k e ti n g a n d s a l e t o o k p l a c e o n a n d p r io r to 6
O c t o b e r 2 0 0 6 . R o w m o o r In v e s t m e n t s w a s o n ly r e g is te r e d o n t h e 2 6 t h o f
M a r c h 2 0 0 7 a n d M k h w a n a z i w a s a p p o i n te d a s a D ir e c t o r o n t h e 4 t h o f
M a y 2 0 0 7 , t h e s a m e d a y w h e n h e h a d a m e e ti n g w it h M a z a r s w h o a r e

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a ls o t h e a u d it o r s o f th e In t a k a G r o u p o f c o m p a n ie s .

Can you just

c o m m e n t a n d e x p l a i n a n d i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R W H I T E : C h a i r t h a t is c o r r e c t , t h is – t h e c o m p a n y th a t w a s f o r m e d
fr o m w h a t I c o u ld s e e w a s f o r m e d b y M a z a r s a n d th e y r e g is te r e d M r
M k h w a n a z i a s th e D ir e c t o r o f t h e e n ti ty a n d t h e y w e r e th e s a m e e n t i ty
t h a t w e r e t h e a u d i to r s o f I n ta k a a t t h e t i m e .

S o i t a p p e a r s th a t th e

s e t ti n g u p o f t h i s c o m p a n y h a d b e e n d o n e a t t h e r e q u e s t o f I n ta k a a n d
t h e y ’ d u s e d th e ir s a m e a u d i t o r s t o f o r m t h e c o m p a n y f o r M r Mk h w a n a z i .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

A n d t h e n j u s t fi n a ll y y o u s a y, i t ’s y o u r

c o n c l u s i o n t h a t y o u r e a c h o n p a g e … [ i n te r v e n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l s o t h i s w a s n ’ t – w h a t h a p p e n e d
h e r e d o e s n ’ t s e e m to b e w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h M r P a n d a y ’s e n t it i e s o r
some of them where they were taken out of the shelf or the same might
h a v e h a p p e n e d h e r e , w e d o n ’t k n o w ?
MR WHITE:

C h a i r I th in k th e s a m e h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e th e c o m p a n y

w a s r e g i s te r e d o n t h e 2 6 t h o f M a r c h b u t M r Mk h w a n a z i w a s o n ly m a d e a
D ir e c t o r o n t h e 4 t h o f M a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t s a m e y e a r 2 0 0 7 ?
M R W H I T E : S a m e y e a r C h a ir b u t s o m e – m o r e t h a n a m o n th l a t e r. I f
20

h e w a s – i f i t w a s r e g is t e r e d a n d h e w a s t h e fi r s t D ir e c t o r, I w o u l d h a v e
e x p e c te d i t to b e t h e s a m e d a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h e n f i n a ll y y o u s a y t h a t h e w a s

a p p o i n t e d a D ir e c t o r o n t h e 4 t h o f M a y w h ic h i s t h e s a m e d a y w h e n h e
h a d a m e e t i n g w i t h M a z a r s w h o a r e a ls o t h e a u d i t o r s o f th e I n t a k a

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G r o u p o f c o m p a n ie s b u t t h e n y o u s a y t h is ,
“ I t a p p e a r s fr o m t h e e l e c t r o n i c d ia r y o f S a v o i a n d fr o m t h e
in f o r m a ti o n

p r o v id e d

by

R e n n ie s

Tr a v e l

that

Mkhwanazi

t o g e th e r w i th N k o n y e n i a l s o a t te n d e d a m e e t in g w i t h D r S a v o i
in C a p e To w n o n th e 4 t h o f M a y 2 0 0 7 ” ,
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o C h a ir t h a t w a s r e fe r r e d t o a t l in e
4 in th a t t a b l e a b o v e th a t I ’d p r e v i o u s l y – o n e o f t h e l in e s I’ d r e a d th e
date out of.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u a n d n o w i f w e c a n g o b a c k to

B u n d l e D … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t t h e e m a il , a r e y o u g o i n g b a c k t o t h e e m a il ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I ’ m n o t g o in g b a c k t o t h e e m a i l I ’ m g o i n g

b a c k to a n o t h e r d o c u m e n t t o t e ll – th e r e ’s m o r e i n th e s t o r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I w a n t u s t o fi n a l is e t h e e m a i l l e t’s n o t l e a v e i t
f o r – le t ’s g o b a c k t o t h e e m a il a t p a g e 6 7 3 o f R R 4 B .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Are you 673?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: The SMS?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e S M S – o h I t h o u g h t i t w a s t h e e m a il ja , S M S .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t y o u w a n te d t o g o to ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w a s g o i n g t o g o t o a fu r t h e r d o c u m e n t l a te r
b u t le t ’s g o b a c k t o t h e e m a il .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t’s fi n is h t h is j a . M r W h i t e t h a t S M S a t p a g e 6 7 3

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fr o m t h e M E C t o D r S a v o i is y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t w h e n s h e s a y s ,
t h a t is th e M E C , p e r h a p s y o u n e e d t o c a n c e l t h e d o n a ti o n s i n c e y o u a r e
lo s i n g o n m a i n t e n a n c e , w e l l I t h i n k i t ’s c le a r i t lo o k s lik e s h e w a n ts to –
s h e ’s t h i n k in g o f h o w m a y b e th is c o u ld b e m a d e u p , h o w I n t a k a c o u ld
b e c o m p e n s a te d fo r l o s i n g o n m a in t e n a n c e .
M R W H I T E : I a g r e e C h a ir
CHAIRPERSON: But you say you don’t know what this reference to the
d o n a ti o n w a s a b o u t, w h a t t h a t w a s a b o u t a n d y o u n e v e r f o u n d a n y t h i n g
t h a t th r e w l i g h t o n w h a t i t w a s a b o u t ?
10

M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e k n o w t h a t y e s t e r d a y y o u s a id t h a t D r S a v o i s a i d

t h a t th e R 1 m i ll io n a n d s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s p a i d t o K u b o n i & S h e z i
A t t o r n e y s w a s a d o n a ti o n .

If you look at – I don’t know have you

t h o u g h t a b o u t th e d a t e s w h e n th a t p a y m e n t w a s m a d e – w h e n t h is w a s
m a d e t h is S M S w a s m a d e i s t h e r e a n y p o s s i b i li ty t h a t it c o u l d b e
r e fe r r i n g t o th a t d o n a t i o n ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a r t h a t o t h e r d o n a ti o n w a s m a d e o n t h e 1 2 t h o f

M a r c h 2 0 0 7 s o i t ’s s o m e n i n e m o n t h s p r i o r to … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o i t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n m a d e s o i t c o u ld n o t b e

c a n c e l le d ?
MR WHITE:

I d o n ’ t b e li e v e i t ’s r e fe r r i n g t o t h e s a m e t h in g C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a b e c a u s e t h e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f a d o n a t io n m u s t b e

r e fe r r i n g – i f i t is a r e fe r e n c e to a d o n a ti o n to a d o n a ti o n th a t h a d b e e n
d is c u s s e d a n d i t w a s c o n te m p l a t e d w a s s t il l t o b e m a d e .
M R W H I T E : T h a t w a s m y i n te r p r e t a t i o n C h a ir.

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CHAIRPERSON:

J a t o s a y I s a id I w o u l d g iv e a d o n a ti o n b u t m a y b e

y o u s h o u l d c h a n g e y o u r m i n d a b o u t t h a t , t h a t ’s w h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
M R W H I T E : T h a t w a s m y i n te r p r e t a t i o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e – t h is S M S i t c o u l d n o t –

w i t h y o u r r e f e r e n c e to t h e d o n a t io n c o u l d n o t b e a r e fe r e n c e t o t h a t
R 1 m i ll o in d o n a t i o n th a t w e t a lk e d a b o u t y e s t e r d a y – y o u t a lk e d a b o u t
yesterday?

I t c o u ld a l s o n o t h a v e r e f e r r e d t o t h e t w o p a y m e n t s t h a t

w e r e m a d e to R o w m o o r b e c a u s e t h o s e w e r e n o t d o n a ti o n s a c c o r d i n g t o
D r S a v o i , t h a t w a s p a y m e n t f o r s e r v ic e s r e n d e r e d b y R o w m o o r a s f a r a s
10

m a r k e t in g s e r v ic e s – a s f a r a s h e w a s c o n c e r n e d .
MR WHITE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t r e m a i n s a m y s t e r y w h a t th e r e f e r e n c e to

d o n a ti o n s i s a r e f e r e n c e t o o th e r t h a n t h a t th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n s o m e
p r i o r d is c u s s io n a b o u t a d o n a t io n a n d th a t ’s w h a t s h e m ig h t b e
r e fe r r i n g t o .
M R W H I T E : I a g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d C h a ir o n e m u s t b e a r i n m in d w i t h r e s p e c t
t h e a ff id a v i t o f D r S a v o i w h e r e h e r e a d i l y a d m i ts t h a t h e p a id i n t h e
20

c o n tr a c t

with

the

Department

of

Tr a d i ti o n a l

A ff a ir s

and

Local

G o v e r n m e n t a d o n a ti o n o f R 1 m i ll io n t o t h e A N C a s a q u id p r o q u o f o r
g e t t in g t h a t c o n tr a c t a n d w h e n o n e r e m e m b e r s t h a t – b e c a u s e h e s a y s I
w a s t o l d , w h a t I h a v e to d o is g e t t h e d o n a t io n a n d a f te r th e c o n tr a c t
w a s c o n c l u d e d h e w r i te s t o M r Ts h a b a l a l a a n d s a y s , n o w I n e e d t o p a y
t h e d o n a ti o n a n d h e s a y s h e th e n p a y s t h e d o n a t io n a n d h e ’s to l d t o

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p a y i t i n t o K u b o n i & S h e z i A t to r n e y ’s Tr u s t a c c o u n t w h ic h t h e n
h a p p e n s . N o w t h a t’s o n t h e v e r s i o n o f D r S a v o i. W h e n y o u r e a d th a t ,
h e r e , a l th o u g h th e r e is n ’ t e v i d e n c e , i n m y v i e w it i s i m p l ic i t t h a t a
s i m il a r d o n a t io n h a d b e e n r e q u e s t e d i n t h is in s t a n c e b u t M s N k o n y e n i
is s a y i n g , l o o k I k n o w y o u h a v e n ’ t d o n e a s w e ll a s y o u t h o u g h t y o u
w o u ld y o u d o n ’ t h a v e t o p a y t h e d o n a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h e r e m a y b e p a r ts o f w h a t ’s i n t h e E x h i b i t t h a t
w e r e n o t r e fe r r e d t o y e s t e r d a y, I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r h e a r i n g o r r e a d i n g
s o m e t h i n g to t h e e ffe c t th a t D r S a v o i s a i d t h e d o n a t io n w a s a q u i d p r o
10

q u o fo r h i m g e t t in g th e c o n t r a c t , I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h a t b u t y o u h a v e
r e a d m o r e i n t h e b u n d l e th a n w h a t I h a v e r e a d , m a y b e y o u a r e t e l li n g
m e w h a t y o u r e a d b u t w h ic h w a s n ’ t c o v e r e d y e s te r d a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir it w a s c o v e r e d y e s t e r d a y b u t

p e r h a p s a f t e r … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e c a n g o b a c k t o i t a t s o m e s ta g e b u t I d o s e e m t o
h a v e s e e n s o m e th in g in M s – i n D r S a v o i ’s a ffi d a v i t t o t h e e ff e c t th a t
s o m e t h i n g li k e , I w a s m a d e to u n d e r s t a n d th is is h o w b u s i n e s s i s d o n e
o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s e x a c tl y.
20

CHAIRPERSON: But I don’t know – I can’t remember whether it was in
r e l a ti o n t o t h a t o r i t w a s s o m e t h in g e ls e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t w a s i n r e l a ti o n t o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y a l r i g h t . W e l l t h e o th e r p a r t y o u m e n ti o n e d ,
n a m e ly w h e th e r t h i s w a s – t h i s m a y h a v e b e e n a s i m il a r d o n a ti o n t h a t’s
ju s t s p e c u l a ti o n .

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t ’s s p e c u l a ti o n – y e s i t ’s s p e c u l a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Now…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON: We have gone past 1 o’clock.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s p e r h a p s i t ’s a c o n v e n i e n t t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w f a r a r e w e f r o m f i n is h i n g w it h M r W h i te ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I th i n k a b o u t 4 5 m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, w e ’ll t a k e t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t n o w, i t ’s

fi v e p a s t o n e , w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t tw o , w e a d j o u r n .
10

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n t in u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr W h i t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t t o s u m m a r is e a t l e a s t p a r t o f th e e v i d e n c e in

r e l a ti o n t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a lt h a n d th e s e t w o c o n tr a c t s .
I n r e g a r d t o th e – w h a t is i t c a l l e d W a t a k a ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W a t a k a I a m s u r e I a m g e tt i n g i t w r o n g . In r e g a r d to
t h a t o n e t h e r e w a s n o t e n d e r a t a ll – c o m p e t i tiv e t e n d e r a t a ll . I s th a t
r ig h t ?
M R W H I T E: T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir t h a t i s t h e o n e w h e r e th e r e w a s th r e e
quotations.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w e r e j u s t th r e e q u o ta t io n s t h a t w e r e a c t u a l ly –

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t h e e n t it i e s fr o m w h ic h t h e y w e r e o b t a i n e d w e r e p r o v i d e d b y s o m e b o d y
w h o w o u ld – w a s s u p p o s e d t o c o m p e t e w i t h t h e m ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is In t a k a .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y s u p p ly to t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t D o c to r

N y e m b e z i a n d t h e n s h e p a s s e d th e m o n t o S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t s a i d t h e y o b t a i n e d

them. And
1 . T h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r t h is p u r c h a s e a t a ll i n r e g a r d t o t h e t w o
h o s p i ta ls b e c a u s e t h e w a t e r h a d n o p r o b l e m ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t is a q u e s ti o n a b le tr a n s a c ti o n t o s a y t h e l e a s t

b e c a u s e th e r e i s n o – t h e r e s e e m s t o b e n o n e e d f o r it .

T h e r e is a

t e a m o r a p e r s o n – a h e a l t h p r o fe s s io n a l w i t h i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h o
w r o t e a r e p o r t a f t e r in s p e c t in g t h e w a t e r a n d s a i d t h e w a te r i s n o t
c o n ta m i n a t e d . B u t t h a t w a s – th a t is d is r e g a r d e d a n d a m e m o r a n d u m i s
o r e m a il is w r i t t e n t o s a y, t h e r e is a n u r g e n t n e e d fo r – fo r t h i s p la n t i n
20

t h e t w o h o s p i t a l s a n d u l ti m a t e ly th e p u r c h a s e h a p p e n s a n d t h e n w i t h
r e g a r d to t h e O x i n t a k a th e n a n i m p r e s s i o n is c r e a te d o r r a t h e r a te n d e r
p r o c e s s s e e ms t o b e f o l lo w e d b u t t h e e n t it y t h a t h a d b e e n g i v e n t h a t
h a d b e n e fi t te d fr o m th e fir s t p r o j e c t i n r e g a r d to t h e t w o h o s p i t a ls is
g iv e n th e r ig h t o p p o r tu n i t y t o s p e c i f y o r a m e n d s p e c i fic a ti o n s to s u i t
t h e ir b i d a n d u l t i m a te ly t h e y g e t a w a r d e d t h is . B u t a t s o m e s ta g e t h e r e

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is a p a y m e n t – t h e r e a r e t w o p a y m e n t s o f a b o u t – is i t 6 0 0 – R 5 0 0 e a c h
– R500 000.00 each?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e r o m a n t ic p a r tn e r o f th e M E C o f t h e s a m e

d e p a r t m e n t a n d i n te r m s o f y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n y o u fi n d o u t th a t D o c t o r
S a v o i’s e l e c tr o n ic d ia r y r e fl e c ts t h a t h e h a d a n u m b e r o f in t e r a c ti o n s o r
m e e ti n g s o r c o n t a c ts w it h t h e m o r t h e y w e r e a n u m b e r o f m e e t in g s o r
c o n ta c t s t h a t w e r e p l a n n e d i n te r ms o f t h e d i a r y.

And you say you

f o u n d t h a t a t l e a s t o n t w o o c c a s i o n s w h e n t h e M E C o f th e d e p a r t m e n t
10

a n d h e r r o m a n t ic p a r t n e r s t a y a t a h o t e l i n C a p e To w n th a t is p a id fo r
b y In t a k a , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R W H I T E : J u s t o n e o c c a s i o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t o n e o c c a s i o n t h a t i s p a id f o r b y In t a k a .

The

o th e r s d i d y o u c h e c k o r y o u d i d n o t c h e c k ?
MR WHITE: We did not check because the diaries did not record
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h a t i t w a s a n o v e r n ig h t s t a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. S o – s o t h e n t h e r e is t h is s m s f r o m t h e
MEC to Doctor Savoi of Intaka a few hours after the signing of the
20

c o n tr a c t i n r e g a r d t o th e O x y p la n t – O x i n ta k a , O x i n t a k a a n d i t s e e m s
t o i n d ic a te t h a t s h e is m o r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e fa c t t h a t I n t a k a d id n o t
g e t i ts w a y in t e r m s o f t h e m a in t e n a n c e o f t h e p l a n t .

And she says

s o m e t h i n g li k e w e w il l h a v e t o m o r e c a r e f u l in t h e f u tu r e a n d t h e n s h e
s a y s , m a y b e y o u s h o u l d c a n c e l th e d o n a t i o n . S o t h a t i s a s u m m a r y o f
p a r t o f w h a t w e d e a l t w i t h b e f o r e lu n c h .

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M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. N o w M r W h i te r e t u r n i n g t o
t h e b o d y o f y o u r a ff id a v i t A n n e x u r e R R 4 a n d p a g e 4 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say page 43?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

P u r s u a n t to y o u r in v e s ti g a t i o n s i s it c o r r e c t

that you prepared nine separate reports?
10

M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d a r e t h o s e t h e r e p o r ts th a t a r e lis t e d i n

p a r a g r a p h 5 6 a n d A n n e x m a r k – a n n e x e d t o y o u r a ffi d a v it m a r k e d
A n n e x u r e T S W 7 a ll t h e w a y th r o u g h t o T S W 1 6 ?
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e r e w a s n in e r e p o r ts a n d o n e a ff i d a v i t

prepared.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w s o m e o f t h e s e r e p o r ts C h a i r d e a l w i t h

c o r r u p ti o n in v e s ti g a t e d w i th r e g a r d to p r o c u r e m e n t ir r e g u la r i ti e s w i t h
t h e s a m e c o n tr a c to r i n t h e N o r t h e r n – i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir j u s t s o t h a t y o u u n d e r s ta n d I h a v e n o t
d e a lt w i t h a n y o f t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t ir r e g u l a r it y b e c a u s e i t w a s f e l t i t
f a ll s b e y o n d t h e Te r m s o f R e fe r e n c e b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o e v id e n c e o f
p o li t ic a l in t e r f e r e n c e

or

interference in

th e

N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g

A u t h o r i ty w i t h p r o s e c u t io n s p u r s u a n t to t h o s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s . S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s i t n o t c o r r u p t io n ?

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t w a s – i t w a s c o r r u p t i o n b u t in t e r m s o f
t h e b r i e f t h a t I h a v e h e r e a n d t h e e v i d e n c e I a m n o w p r e s e n ti n g o n t h e
behalf of Law – the State Capture of Law Enforcement Agencies I have
n o t d e a l t w i t h th a t in d e ta il . I j u s t w o u ld lik e t h e w i tn e s s j u s t t o g i v e
y o u a b r o a d o u t li n e o f w h a t th o s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s e n ta il e d . B u t I d o n o t
p r o p o s e d e a l i n g w i t h th e m in t h e s a m e d e t a i l a s I h a v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll d e p e n d i n g y o u k n o w i t is n o t a s i f w e o n ly d e a l
w i t h c o r r u p ti o n , fr a u d th a t i n v o lv e s p o l it ic i a n s a n d c o r r u p ti o n a n d fr a u d
t h a t d o e s n o t in v o lv e c o r r u p t i o n s w e d o n o t d e a l w i t h .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So…
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o , n o t h a t w a s n o t t h e p o in t . W h a t I w a s

s a y in g is t h a t t h is – t h is e v i d e n c e is fo c u s s e d a s w a s w i t h r e g a r d to t h e
P a n d a y m a t te r a n d w it h r e g a r d to t h e I n ta k a m a t t e r w i t h t h e s u b s e q u e n t
in t e r fe r e n c e b y th e N PA .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e N PA o h – y o u – i n r e g a r d to th e o t h e r o n e y o u

s a y t h e r e is c o m p l a in t th a t th e N PA d i d n o t d o .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir j o b .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay alright.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t m ig h t b e s o m e th i n g t h a t n e e d s to b e

in v e s t i g a t e d la t e r b u t n o t a t t h is s t a g e w i t h th is w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I n th is …

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C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t i s f i n e le t m e h e a r a b o u t a n d h a v e a n i d e a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d le t u s ta k e it fr o m t h e r e .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h e – t h e p r o c e s s e s f o l l o w e d i n t h e N o r t h e r n

C a p e b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h w e r e v e r y s i m il a r t o w h a t h a p p e n e d
in K Z N .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

O n ly d i ff e r e n c e w a s t h e o ffi c i a l s i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e

w e r e d i ff e r e n t a n d i n s t e a d o f t h e M E C b e i n g in v o lv e d M r J o h n B lo c k
10

w a s t h e c o n t a c t o f I n t a k a a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o d ir e c te d w h a t w a s t o
happen.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E: A n d h e w a s a p e r s o n w h o r e c e i v e d b e n e fi ts d ir e c t ly f r o m
Intaka.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : S o t h a t w a s th e s ig n i f ic a n t d i ff e r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e o t h e r – s o ju s t – i t w a s a g a in t h e W a te r P u r i f ic a ti o n
P l a n ts a n d th e O x i n t a k a p l a n ts p u r c h a s e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h .

20

C h a ir a g a i n w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e W a t e r P u r if ic a ti o n P l a n ts th e r e w a s n o
need.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE: They created a need.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e y p u r c h a s e d 1 0 W a t e r P u r if ic a ti o n P l a n t s .

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : F o r i n s t a ll a ti o n a t 1 0 d i ff e r e n t h o s p i ta ls .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE: Throughout the Northern Cape.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I w e n t w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a t in g o ffic e r s i n t h a t m a t te r
t o e a c h o f t h e 1 0 h o s p i t a l s i n th e N o r th e r n C a p e w h e n w e w e r e d o i n g
t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d n o t o n e o f th e 1 0 p l a n t s w a s in o p e r a t i o n .

So

a g a in t h e r e w a s n o n e e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir w h a t t h e y h a d d o n e w a s th e y h a d i n s t a l le d th e s e
p l a n t s a n d h a d j u s t d iv e r t e d t h e m u n ic i p a l w a t e r s u p p ly t h r o u g h t h e
p l a n t i n e ffe c t iv e l y a U a n d b a c k i n – b a c k t o t h e h o s p i t a l . W h e n th e
plant …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a s i f t h e y w e r e p r o v id i n g w a t e r th a t w o u l d h a v e

g o n e t h e r e a n y w a y.
M R W H I T E:

C h a i r i t w e n t th r o u g h t h is p la n t i n t h e o r y t o b e p u r if i e d .

W h e n t h e h o s p i ta l e i th e r c o u l d n o t a ff o r d t h e c h e m ic a ls o r f o r s o m e
m a in t e n a n c e r e a s o n t h e p l a n t b r o k e d o w n t h e y j u s t t u r n e d t h e t a p s t h a t
20

d iv e r t e d t h e w a te r t o th e s e p l a n t s b a c k t o t h e o r ig i n a l d ir e c ti o n a n d
t h e y j u s t b y p a s s e d t h e p l a n t s tr a i g h t t o t h e h o s p i ta l w i t h n o d e tr i m e n ta l
e ffe c t t o a n y o f t h e p a ti e n ts o r t h e p e o p l e i n t h e h o s p i t a l . A n d C h a ir
ju s t t o s h o w r i d i c u l o u s i t w a s in o n e o f th e i n s t a n c e s t h e y a c tu a lly
in s t a l l e d o n e o f t h e s e p l a n t s a t a h o s p i t a l t h a t w a s b u s y r e lo c a t in g t o a
d i ff e r e n t p r e m is e s .

T h e y in s t a ll e d it w h i le th e r e l o c a ti o n w a s t a k i n g

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p l a c e a n d b y t h e t i m e t h e i n s t a l l a t i o n w a s c o m p l e t e th e h o s p i t a l h a d
r e l o c a t e d t o a n e w b u il d i n g . S o i t w a s n e v e r e v e n s w i tc h e d o n . S o t h a t
is t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n e e d . S o t h a t i s r e g a r d i n g th e
Wa t e r P u r i fic a ti o n Pl a n ts . T h e r e w a s a ls o is s u e s a r o u n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y w h a t w e r e t h e p r ic e s t h e r e c o m p a r e d t o

t h e p r i c e s p a i d b y th e – b y K Z N d e p a r t m e n ts ?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir I w o u l d h a v e to c h e c k b u t t h e y w e r e – t h e y w e r e

c lo s e r t o w h a t th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h p a i d t h a n to w h a t l o c a l
g o v e r n m e n t p a id .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : S o t h e y w e r e a g a i n s ig n if ic a n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
MR WHITE:

C h a i r w h a t – w h a t th e n a l s o h a p p e n e d w a s t h e y u s e d

these cover quotes.

S o t h o s e t w o g e n tl e m e n t h a t p le a d e d g u i lt y i n

t e r m s o f t h e ir p l e a in K Z N a ls o p le a d e d g u il ty i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e
c o u r ts .

B u t C h a ir th o s e – i n s o m e i n s ta n c e s t h o s e q u o t e s t h e r e w a s

e x a m p l e s a g a in o f e m a i ls e tc e t e r a p r i n t e d o u t , m a in t a i n e d w h e r e Mr
B l o c k w a s l i a is i n g w i t h D o c to r S a v o i s a y i n g h e n e e d e d t h r e e q u o t e s .
T h e p e r s o n I n S u p p ly C h a i n w a s b e i n g d i ffi c u l t. D o c t o r S a v o i r e p l i e d , I
20

w i ll a r r a n g e th e t h r e e q u o t e s .

I n t a k a t h e n in th e i r o w n r e c o r d s h a v e

g o t c o p i e s o f t h e t h r e e q u o t e s a s w e l l a s c o p y o f t h e c o u r ie r w a y b i ll
t h a t c o u r i e r e d t h o s e q u o t e s t o D o c t o r – s o r r y t o M r B l o c k ’s h o u s e . T h e
f o ll o w i n g w e e k t h o s e th r e e q u o t e s e x a c tly t h e s a m e o n e s a p p e a r e d a t
t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e Te n d e r B o a r d a n d I n ta k a w a s a p p o in t e d . S o i t ju s t
s h o w s t h e l e v e l o f in t e r f e r e n c e i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d w h a t

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w a s h a p p e n i n g . C h a ir th e r e w a s a l s o 1 6 d i a l y s i s m a c h i n e s p u r c h a s e d .
T h e y w e r e d is tr ib u te d a c r o s s v a r io u s h o s p it a l s i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e . A
n u m b e r o f t h e m w e n t to h o s p it a ls t h a t d id n o t h a v e t h a t u n i t i n it a n d a s
a r e s u l t t h e r e w a s n o - o n e to o p e r a t e t h e m . A n d C h a ir …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u m e a n t h e y d i d n o t h a v e a k i d n e y u n i t ?
M R W H I T E: C o r r e c t C h a ir. A p p a r e n t ly th e i d e a w a s t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o
e s t a b li s h o n e b u t th e r e q u ir e d n u r s e s a n d m e d i c a l p r a c ti ti o n e r s h a d n o t
b e e n a p p o i n t e d . S o m e e i g h te e n m o n t h s l a te r w h e n w e w e r e d o i n g t h is
in v e s t i g a t io n I t o o k p h o t o g r a p h s o f s e v e n o f t h o s e s ix t e e n m a c h i n e s
10

s t il l i n t h e i r o r i g i n a l p a c k a g in g s t a n d in g i n th e c o r r i d o r s o f t h e s e
d i ff e r e n t c li n i c s . T h e y w e r e n o t – th e y j u s t w e r e n o t o p e r a t i o n a l .

So

a g a in p u r c h a s e d a t i n fl a te d p r ic e s . A g a i n t h e r e w a s c o v e r q u o t e s n o t
u s i n g th e s a m e p e o p le a s t h e W a ta k a s b u t o th e r e n t i ti e s a n d a s a r e s u l t
c r e a ti n g a n e e d w h e r e t h e r e w a s a d e s p e r a t e n e e d f o r th is k in d o f
e q u ip m e n t b u t a t t h e h o s p i ta ls th e y d i s p e r s e d t h e m to .

Those were

t h e n a l l s u b s e q u e n t ly tr a n s f e r r e d t o t h e K i m b e r l y H o s p i ta l .

But years

la t e r o n ly a s a r e s u l t o f w h e n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s w e r e ta k i n g p l a c e . S o
C h a ir t h a t p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is j u s t th e s u m m a r y.
20

M R W H I T E : A t a h i g h l e v e l C h a ir b u t b e c a u s e o f t h e l e g a l p r o c e s s th a t
– a n d c h a ll e n g e s t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g i n K Z N t h e r e w a s a d e c is i o n t h a t
t h e c a s e s i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e w o u l d b e p r o s e c u t e d a f te r t h e c a s e s i n
K Z N . S o t h o s e c a s e s a r e w a i t in g f o r p r o g r e s s i n K Z N a n d a s a r e s u l t
n o t h i n g fr o m a c o u r t p e r s p e c tiv e h a s – h a s h a p p e n e d o n t h o s e c a s e s
y e t e it h e r. Al t h o u g h p e o p le w e r e a r r e s t e d , t h e y a r e o u t o n b a i l , c h a r g e

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s h e e t s w e r e d r a w n u p , i t is n o w j u s t w a i ti n g f o r t h e l e g a l p r o c e s s i n
KZN to proceed.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o Mr B lo c k ’s c r i m i n a l tr i a l w a s n o t c o n n e c t e d w it h

the same thing?
M R W H I T E: N o C h a ir t h e c a s e t h a t M r B l o c k w a s c o n v ic t e d o n r e la t e d
t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f r e n t in g o f f a c i li t ie s fo r d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n ts i n
t h e N o r th e r n C a p e a n d h i s i n v o l v e m e n t i n t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y s o – s o – b u t y o u h a v e g o t th a t r e p o r t h e r e
o r r e l a ti n g t o N o r t h e r n C a p e o r n o t r e a ll y ?
10

M R W H I T E : C h a ir th e y a l l a t t a c h e d t o m y a ffi d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E:

S o th is m o r n i n g w e j u s t r e f e r r e d to t w o – th e t w o t h a t

related to KZN.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : A ll t h e b a l a n c e o f th o s e a r e a l s o a t t a c h e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

W e l l I – I w a n t u s to h a v e t h a t .

But what you

h a v e t o ld m e i s a lr e a d y u n d e r o a t h i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t i n r e g a r d t o t h a t
matter?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i t is in t h e r e p o r ts t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t a n d
y o u c o n f ir m t h a t y o u s ta n d w h a t is in t h e r e p o r ts a n d in t h e a ffi d a v it ?
MR WHITE: Correct Chair;
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . N o I t h in k w h a t w e n e e d t o d o is y o u d o
n e e d to s t u d y t h e r e p o r ts r e l a ti n g t o N o r t h e r n C a p e a n d th e a ffi d a v i t
a n d t h e y n e e d t o b e id e n ti fi e d . I w o u ld l i k e t o h a v e a l o o k a t th e m a s

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
w e ll .

It may or may not be that we might ask you to come back and

d e a l w it h th e m i n m o r e d e t a il b u t th e r e m i g h t n o t b e a n e e d . I t m a y b e
t h a t t h e w a y f o r w a r d m i g h t b e t o g iv e t h e r e l e v a n t p e o p l e i m p l ic a te d
p e r s o n s , p e o p l e i m p li c a t e d in y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d i n y o u r r e p o r t a n
o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e s p o n d to i t a n d w e ta k e i t fr o m th e r e . B e c a u s e t h e –
e v e n a lo t o f t h a t y o u a r e t e s ti f y i n g a b o u t i s r e a ll y in y o u r r e p o r t s t o d a y
a n d h e r e i n th e p a s t f e w d a y s . S o – s o i f w e w o u l d l ik e y o u t o c o m e
b a c k w e c e r t a in ly w i ll a s k y o u .

But I know that we are not done.

I

t h i n k M s W e n t z e l h a s n o t – is n o t d o n e y e t w i t h y o u .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : B u t t h a n k y o u f o r t h a t p ic tu r e t h a t y o u g a v e m e a b o u t w h a t
happened in the Northern Cape.
M R W H I T E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o Mr W h it e i t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t th in k – I a m s o r r y – I j u s t t h in k t h a t i t w o u l d n o t
b e r i g h t t o te ll th e s to r y in v o lv in g I n ta k a i n K Z N w i th o u t s a y in g t h a t
a p p e a r s t h a t t h e y d id t h e s a m e t h in g in N o r th – i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e .
E v e n i f i n t e r m s o f t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e t h e r e m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n a n y
c h a l le n g e s i n th e p r o s e c u t io n b u t f o r a c o m p l e t e p ic t u r e t h a t m a y b e

20

i m p o r t a n t. B e c a u s e e v e n w i th a tr ia l in r e g a r d to K Z N t h e c r i m i n a l tr i a l
it m a y b e i m p o r ta n t f o r – t h e r e m a y b e r e fe r e n c e s t o w h a t I n t a k a is
a l le g e d t o h a v e d o n e i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e is s o m e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I n t e r c o n n e c t io n .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m p o r t a n t c o n n e c ti o n j a .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir a n d I w i ll s p e n d s o m e t i m e w it h Mr
W h i t e a n d i n v e s ti g a te t h o s e m o r e f u l ly a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a lr i g h t.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r W h i t e i t i s c o r r e c t th a t a n u m b e r o f

p e r s o n s w e r e i m p li c a t e d i n y o u r r e p o r ts w e r e a r r e s t e d o n p r e li m i n a r y
c h a r g e s h e e ts a n d a f i n a l in d ic t m e n t w a s is s u e d a n d fil e d i n t h e
10

K w a Z u l u N a ta l h i g h c o u r t a n d it i s a n n e x e d y o u r a ffi d a v it a s A n n e x u r e
T S W 1 7 a n d C h a i r t h a t is i n R R 1 d fo r d o g a n d i t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 8 6 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: How many accused were there?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h e r e w e r e 2 3 a c c u s e d o f w h i c h 1 8 w e r e n a tu r a l
persons.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h o w e r e t h e n a tu r a l p e r s o n s ?
M R W H I T E:

C h a ir i f I c o u l d j u s t r e f e r to t h e d o c u m e n t a t 1 8 6 7 ? T h e

a c c u s e d a r e li s te d a s G a s t o n S a v o i , S i p h o D e r r i c k Ts h a b a la la , B u s i s i w e
M u r i e l N y e m b e z i , P e g g y Y li s w a N k o n y e n i, Vic t o r N ts h a n g a s e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e – I t h i n k t h a t i s w h e r e t h a t Y c o m e s fr o m . I
d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e th e Y c a m e f r o m i n D o c t o r S a v o i ’s d i a r y
w h e r e i t s a y s , P e g g y Y. S o i t m u s t b e c o m in g fr o m Y l i s w a .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
M R W H I T E: Vic t o r N ts h a n g a s e , A ls o n S i p h o R i b e a n e B u t h e l e z i, R o n a l d

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
W in s to n G r e e n T h o m p s o n , Y li s w a L u l a m a M b e l e , F e r n a n d o P r e d a r i ,
Annsano

Romane,

Donald

Keith

M il l e r,

S i n d il e

M a b u y a k h u lu , B e a tr i c e N t h o m b e n h le Ts h a b a l a l a ,

Kuboni,

Mi c h a e l

L in d e l ih l e M h k a n a z i,

N o z i b e l e Pr is c i ll a P h i n d e l a , J a b u j l a n i L a n g a h l e T h u s a , Ia n – C h a i r I
d e f in i te ly n e e d s o m e h e lp w i t h th e g e n tl e m a n ’s s e c o n d n a m e ,
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ia n B u h l e m a k e , I a n B u h l e m a k e B lo s e .
M R W H I T E : A n d i t i s th e e n ti ti e s l in k e d t o I n ta k a . I n t a k a H o l d i n g s P T Y
Limited.

There

is

Rowmoor

M k h w a n a z i ’s e n ti ty.
10

Investments

738

PTY

L i m i te d .

Mr

S k y r o s s M e d ic a l S u p p li e s P T Y L i m i t e d e n t i ty

li n k e d t o M r Ts h a b a l a la . K u b o n i a n d S h e z i A t t o r n e y s a n d B lu e S e r e n i ty
I n v e s t m e n t s P T Y L i m i t e d a n e n t it y l in k e d to B e a tr ic e Ts h a b a l a l a t h e
w i f e o f M r Ts h a b a la l a .

S o C h a ir th a t – t h a t in d ic t m e n t h a s s o m e 5 4

charges.

to

It

r e la t e d

racketeering,

fr a u d ,

c o r r u p ti o n ,

money

la u n d e r in g a n d P F M A c h a r g e s . C h a ir t h a t i n d ic t m e n t t o o k a lo n g t i m e to
be prepared.

T h e r e w e r e l o ts o f c o n s u l t a ti o n s a n d w h e n I s a y l o ts I

ju s t c a n n o t e v e n r e m e m b e r h o w m a n y m e e ti n g s t h e r e w e r e .

Th is

in v e s t i g a t io n th e p r o s e c u to r s w h ic h c h a n g e d a n u m b e r o f ti m e s w e r e
in v o lv e d r i g h t f r o m t h e v e r y b e g in n i n g . S o i t w a s a jo in t e ff o r t . T h e r e
w a s t h e p o l ic e , P W C a s s is t in g th e p o lic e , r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s fr o m N a t io n a l
20

Tr e a s u r y a s w e ll r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s fr o m t h e N PA . S o w e w o r k e d t o g e t h e r
a n d u lt i m a t e ly p r e s e n t e d t h e e v id e n c e a n d t h e p r o s e c u ti o n t e a m d r e w
u p t h e i n d i c t m e n t . W h il e – s o th is w a s t h e – t h e e n d r e s u lt e ff e c ti v e ly
b u t C h a ir t h a t w a s o n ly fi n a l is e d a f te r t h e - fo r w a n t o f a b e t te r w o r d
t h e r a c k e t e e r i n g c e r t i fic a t e h a d b e e n i s s u e d b y t h e N D P P.

Because

t h is w a s i n c l u d e d r a c k e t e e r i n g c h a r g e s a n d y o u c o u ld o n l y h a v e

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
r a c k e t e e r i n g c h a r g e s i f t h e N D P P h a d a u t h o r i s e d it .

And that

c e r t if ic a te is a t T S W 1 8 o n p a g e 1 9 4 5 i n t h e s a m e f il e . S o d ir e c tly a f t e r
that.

A n d t h a t c e r t i fic a t e i s th e o n e t h a t r e fe r s t o e x a c tly t h e s a m e

c h a r g e s th a t is in t h a t i n d i c t m e n t a n d t h a t w a s s i g n e d b y t h e N D P P o n
t h e 3 1 J u ly 2 0 11 .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e n M r W h it e A n n e x u r e T S W 2 0 is t h e p l e a

d e a l i n t e r m s o f w h ic h th e tw o e n t i ti e s M b u s a a n d W e s t p r o p r o d u c e d
c o v e r q u o t e s to a s s is t S a v o i w h i c h w a s r e fe r r e d t o b y y o u e a r li e r i n
y o u r e v i d e n c e . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
10

M R W H I T E : S o t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o a f te r t h i s i n d ic t m e n t h a d b e e n
fi n a l is e d t w o o f – th o s e t w o e n t i ti e s th a t d id t h e c o v e r q u o t e s th e ir
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s , l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s n e g o t ia t e d a p l e a b a r g a in w i t h
t h e s t a te .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th e n M r W h i te i f w e c a n g o t o p a r a g r a p h 6 8
o n p a g e 4 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it ?

Yo u s a y t h a t a ft e r e x t e n s iv e w o r k

b e t w e e n y o u r, th e i n v e s ti g a to r s a n d p r o s e c u to r s a t t h e N PA c h a r g e s
w e r e d r a w n u p . A r a c k e te e r i n g c e r ti fi c a t e is s u e d .

What happened on

the 19 March 2012?
M R W H I T E:
20

S o C h a ir o n t h e 1 9 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 w h ic h is s o m e e ig h t

m o n th s a ft e r t h e r a c k e t e e r i n g c e r ti fi c a t e h a d b e e n is s u e d I r e c e iv e d a n
e m a i l fr o m A d v o c a t e D u n y w a h e w a s t h e l e a d p r o s e c u t o r i n t h e m a t te r
f o r K Z N a n d h e in v i t e d m e t o a t t e n d a m e e ti n g o n t h e 2 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 a t
t h e N PA o ff i c e s i n D u r b a n a t t e n o ’c lo c k .

I a t t e n d e d t h a t m e e t in g

t o g e th e r …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s ta n d

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
t h is .

When you say he was the lead prosecutor did that relate to the

t w o c o n tr a c ts r e l a t i n g t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h o n ly o r d id i t a l s o
r e l a t e t o t h e m a t t e r in v o lv in g I n t a k a t h a t w e d e a lt w i t h y e s t e r d a y
r e l a ti n g to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t
a n d th e d o n a ti o n ? O r w a s i t a ll o f th e s e p u t t o g e t h e r ?
M R W H I T E : I t r e l a te d to b o th C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To – t o b o t h y e s th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t ,
Tr a d it i o n a l A ff a ir s a s w e ll a s D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Now
M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir i f – j u s t – s o r r y. J u s t t o g o b a c k . If o n e lo o k e d
a t th e i n d ic t m e n t a n d t h e r a c k e t e e r i n g c e r ti f ic a te i t i n c l u d e d b o th .

It

w a s g o i n g to b e o n e tr ia l C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. O k a y.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir j u s t m a y b e t h e o n l y s p l it w a s g o i n g t o b e m a d e
b e t w e e n K Z N a n d t h e N o r th e r n C a p e .

T h e y w e r e g o in g t o b e tr ie d

separately
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R W H I T E:

A n d t h e r e a s o n th e r e w a s l o ts o f d is c u s s i o n a b o u t

c e n tr a li s i n g e v e r y t h in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : B u t t h e n i t w a s g o i n g to b e in e x c e s s o f 5 0 a c c u s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d i t fe l t i t w a s g o i n g t o b e c o m e u n m a n a g e a b l e .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O k a y. N o w y o u r e fe r r e d to th e e m a il th a t y o u
r e c e i v e d t o a t t e n d th e m e e t i n g . Th a t is A n n e x u r e T S W 2 2 a n d C h a ir i t
a p p e a r s i n b u n d l e Ex h ib i t R R 4 a t p a g e 1 9 8 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n h a s h e c o m p le t e d p a r a g r a p h 6 8 ? H e g o t a n
e m a i l i n v i t in g h i m t o a m e e ti n g o n 2 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 w i t h th e N PA a t te n
a m in D u r b a n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I a m g o i n g to d e a l w i th i t n o w w it h r e f e r e n c e
to the actual email.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th e e m a il C h a ir is f o u n d i n b u n d le D f o r d o g .
I t is a t p a g e 1 9 8 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o I n e e d t o g o to i t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a i r y o u c a n l i s t e n t o t h e e v id e n c e i t is n o t
n e c e s s a r y.
CHAIRPERSON: ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

20

I f y o u c o u ld j u s t p e r h a p s r e a d f o r t h e C h a ir

what…
CHAIRPERSON: Well - well if it needs to be read. It probably needs
me to see it.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: I thought …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O k a y.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : It m i g h t ju s t b e a o n e li n e r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o . I t h i n k it is i m p o r t a n t w h a t - w h a t h e i s …
CHAIRPERSON: What is the page again?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is p a g e 1 - 9 - 8 - 0 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 - 9 - 8 - 0 . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f y o u c o u ld ju s t d e a l w it h t h is e m a il p l e a s e .
MR WHITE:
received.

S o C h a ir th a t i s a - a h a r d c o p y o f t h e e m a i l th a t I
Yo u c a n s e e a t t h e t o p o f t h e p a g e i t is a d d r e s s e d t o

D u P l o o y P J , L ie u t e n a n t - C o lo n e l a n d t o Tr e v o r W h i te - b e i n g m y s e l f
10

a n d C la r e n c e J o n e s w h o w a s a ls o i n v o l v e d in i n v e s t ig a ti o n s , b u t n o t o n
- n o t in t h is s p e c i fic m a t t e r a n d i t i s C c ’ d …
CHAIRPERSON: Was - was he a member of your team?
M R W H I T E : H e w a s n o t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
MR WHITE:

I t is t h e n C c ’ d t o C y r il S M l o ts h w a w h o w a s w h o w a s th e

A c ti n g D P P a t th e t i m e a n d i t is a n i n v it a ti o n t o a n N PA - a n
in v e s t i g a t in g t e a m m e e ti n g o n 2 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k a n d i t w a s
in t h e S o u t h e r n L i fe B u il d in g a n d ju s t t h e p a r t t h a t is r e l e v a n t t o m y s e l f
C h a ir. I t s a y s :
20

“ T h i s s e r v e s to in f o r m y o u th a t y o u a r e in v i te d t o
t h e a b o v e m e n t io n e d m e e t i n g t o b e h e l d o n F r i d a y
2 3 M a r c h w h ic h w il l b e a t te n d e d b y t h e N a ti o n a l
H e a d o f S C C U a n d t h e N a t i o n a l H e a d o f th e
O r g a n is e d C r i m e U n i t o f th e N PA . ”
C h a ir, I f o u n d o u t a f t e r w a r d s w h e n I a t t e n d e d t h e m e e ti n g

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
that

the

N a t io n a l

Head

of

the

SCCU

is

-

was

Advocate Lawrence Mrwebi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M R W H I T E : O r t h e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr w e b i .
M R W H I T E : M r w e b i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr w e b i . J a .
MR WHITE:

T h e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f t h e O r g a n is e d C r i m e U n i t w a s

Advocate Anthony Mosing.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t w e r e y o u a s k e d to b r in g to t h e m e e ti n g ?
MR WHITE:

So

C h a ir,

the

fir s t

point

r e l a te s

to

L ie u t e n a n t

C o l o n e l D u P lo o y a n d t h e n th e s e c o n d p o i n t w h i c h s a y s :
“ A f o r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a t o r M r W h i t e is r e q u e s te d to
p r e p a r e t h e f o ll o w i n g :

a , B u s is i w e N y e m b e z i’s

c o m p a n i e s ’ fl o w o f f u n d s ; b , R o w m o o r f l o w - f u n d s
fl o w a n a ly s i s a n d c , I n ta k a f lo w o f f u n d s . ”
C h a ir t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Where is that part of what you should bring? Oh.
MR WHITE: It is in the middle almost opposite …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is r e q u e s t e d to p r e p a r e t h e f o l l o w i n g . O h , o k a y. N o w
I s e e i t. J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w a s C o lo n e l D u P l o o y t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g

o ffic e r ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o C h a ir, w h a t I w a s r e q u e s t e d t o t o b r i n g it a c tu a l ly m a d e n o s e n s e t o m e w h a t I w a s s u p p o s e d t o d o . I

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
d i d n o t k n o w th e p u r p o s e o f th e m e e t in g . T h e r e w a s n o s u c h t h i n g a s a
fl o w o f f u n d s f o r D r N y e m b e z i ’s c o m p a n i e s .

I did not know what was

meant.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e R o w m o o r f l o w o f f u n d s w a s j u s t t h e t w o p a y m e n ts o f
R 5 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 e a c h .

S o th a t - a n d t h e n t h e I n t a k a f lo w o f f u n d s I w a s

n o t q u it e s u r e w h a t t h e y m e a n t , b u t th a t d i a g r a m I h a v e r e f e r r e d t o a t
T S W 1 9 e ff e c tiv e ly s h o w e d a t a h i g h l e v e l . S o I h a d th a t , b u t it w a s n o t
- a p a r t fr o m t h a t I d id n o t k n o w w h a t e ls e w a s r e q u i r e d .
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D id y o u th e n a t t e n d t h i s m e e t in g ?
M R W H I T E : I d i d C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And what happened?
M R W H I T E : A n d I r e fe r t o it - p a g e 5 0 o f my a ff i d a v i t i n R R 4 C h a i r a t
paragraph 70 going onwards.

C h a ir w h e n - I r e c a ll t h e m e e ti n g v e r y

c le a r ly, b e c a u s e i t w a s a v e r y u n u s u a l m e e ti n g . I t w a s a v e r y h o t d a y
in M a r c h in D u r b a n a n d t h e o n l y r e a s o n I r e c a l l t h a t is th a t th e r e w a s
p r o b le m s w i t h t h e a i r c o n d i t io n in g in t h e b u il d in g a n d a s a r e s u l t th e y
c o u l d n o t f in d a r o o m w h e r e t h e r e w a s a i r c o n d i ti o n i n g o r i t w a s c o o l
e n o u g h a n d a s a r e s u l t t h e m e e t in g s t a r t e d 2 0 m i n u t e s la t e .
I v e r y c l e a r ly r e c a ll t h a t . W h e n t h e m e e ti n g s t a r t e d I r e f e r to

20

it a t p a r a g r a p h 7 1 .
m a t t e r.

A d v o c a t e D u n y w a - th e l e a d p r o s e c u to r in t h e

A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i - t h e H e a d o f t h e S C C U i n D u r b a n a n d

A d v o c a t e M t h e m b u w h o w a s A d v o c a t e D u n y w a ’s j u n i o r in t h e m a t te r
were present.

As well as Advocates Mrwebi and Mosing who I was

in tr o d u c e d to a t t h e m e e t in g a n d L ie u t e n a n t - C o lo n e l D u P l o o y a n d

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
Colonel Jones were also present.
C h a ir, o n c e th a t m e e t i n g s t a r t e d i t b e c a m e v e r y c l e a r t o m e
t h a t A d v o c a t e D u n y w a w a s a l m o s t a s p e c t a to r t o t h e m e e ti n g .

Even

although he was …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s a l m o s t?
MR WHITE: A spectator …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: In the meeting.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R W H I T E : E v e n t h o u g h h e w a s t h e l e a d p r o s e c u t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : H e w a s ju s t e ff e c ti v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s n o t a c t iv e ?
M R W H I T E : A c tiv e . H e w a s j u s t s i t t in g i n t h e m e e ti n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE: And Advocates Mrwebi and M osing …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : W e r e r u n n i n g t h e m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

M R W H I T E : C h a ir, w h e n t h e m e e t i n g s ta r t e d A d v o c a t e M r w e b i i n fo r m e d
u s t h a t a d e c is io n h a d b e e n m a d e t o w it h d r a w t h e c h a r g e s a g a in s t
M r M a b u y a k h u l u a n d th e y j u s t w a n te d t o k n o w w h a t e v i d e n c e th e r e w a s
a g a in s t M s N k o n y e n i a s th e y w e r e c o n s i d e r in g w i t h d r a w in g t h e c h a r g e s
a g a in s t h e r a s w e l l .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w a s t h a t n o t a - a s tr a n g e q u e s t io n , b e c a u s e i f

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
they

had

a lr e a d y

decided

to

withdraw

the

charges

against

M r M a b u y a k h u l u . O n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t t h e y w o u ld h a v e r e a d
t h e w h o l e - y o u r r e p o r t to s a y t h e l e a s t a n d - a n d a ll r e l e v a n t a ffi d a v i ts
t o g e t a f u ll p i c tu r e o f t h e w h o l e c a s e .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir th a t w a s w h a t I th o u g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

S o I - t h i s w a s a f ir s t f o r m e in a ll t h e y e a r s I h a d b e e n

in v e s t i g a t in g m a t t e r s o f t h is n a t u r e a n d d e a li n g w i t h p o l ic e a n d
prosecutors.
10

I h a d n e v e r c o m e a c r o s s t h is s i tu a ti o n w h e r e o n o n e o f

t h e a c c u s e d t h e d e c is io n i s a lr e a d y m a d e a n d n o w t h e y a s k in g w h a t
e v i d e n c e is t h e r e .
I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h e y w o u l d e i th e r b e a s k i n g f o r a v e r y
d e t a i l e d b r i e f i n g o r th e y w o u l d h a v e a lr e a d y lo o k e d a t a l l t h e e v i d e n c e
a n d w o u ld h a v e s p e c i f ic q u e r ie s a b o u t w h a t w a s s a i d . C h a ir, t a k i n g i n in t o a c c o u n t …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w i th r e g a r d t o M r M a b u y a k h u lu e ff e c t iv e ly t h e y

were saying we are not here to consult you about whether that decision
should

-

we

should

withdraw

all

th e

-

the

charges

a g a in s t

M r M a b u y a k h u l u . T h e y a r e s a y i n g th a t d e c i s i o n h a s b e e n t a k e n . T h e
20

o n ly p e r s o n w e - w e w a n t t o e n g a g e y o u o n is M s N k o n y e n i .

Te ll u s

w h a t e v i d e n c e t h e r e is a g a i n s t h e r.
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir, th is is a ft e r n u m e r o u s p e o p l e i n t h e N PA h a v e

c o m e t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n th e r e is c a s e s a g a i n s t t h e s e p e o p le . Th e r e h a s

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b e e n l o ts o f p r e s e n ta t io n s t o s e n i o r m e m b e r s o f t h e N PA a t t h e V G M
B u il d i n g i n Pr e to r i a a n d a r a c k e t e e r i n g c e r t if ic a te h a s b e e n is s u e d .
T h e m a t t e r i s b e fo r e t h e H i g h C o u r t .
J u d g e M c L a r e n h a d b e e n a l lo c a t e d a s t h e - a s a R e t ir e d
J u d g e t o h e a r t h e m a t te r, b e c a u s e i t w a s g o i n g t o - t h e y t h o u g h t it w a s
going to take quite some time. So that was where it was at. We asked
t h is q u e s t io n . M y s e lf a n d - a n d L ie u t e n a n t- C o lo n e l D u P l o o y a n d t h e y
said regardless of what has happened to date there is no evidence
a g a in s t M a b u y a k h u l u i n th e ir v ie w a n d w e m u s t n o t w a s te t h e ir t i m e
10

w i t h t h is a n d w e m u s t ju s t d e a l w i t h N k o n y e n i . S o C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D i d - d i d a n y b o d y - d i d y o u o r L i e u t e n a n t
C o l o n e l D u P lo o y o r a n y b o d y s e e k t o e n g a g e t h e m o n t h e ir d e c is io n o n
Mr Mabuyakhulu?

In o t h e r w o r d s h o w d i d th e y c o m e to s a y w h a t y o u

s a y t h e y s a id ? W a s i t b e c a u s e s o m e b o d y s a id h a n g o n . H o w c a n y o u
m a k e t h a t d e c i s i o n a b o u t M r M a b u y a k h u l u , b e c a u s e o f - b e c a u s e th e r e
is e v i d e n c e o r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir w e d i d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d t h a t is w h e r e t h e y s a i d w e m u s t n o t w a s te t h e ir t i m e .
20

T h a t d e c is i o n is a lr e a d y m a d e a n d w e h a v e o n ly g o t a n h o u r f o r t h i s
m e e ti n g a n d y o u h a v e a lr e a d y w a s t e d 2 0 m i n u t e s w h ic h w a s n o t - w e
d i d n o t w a s t e i t . T h e y c o u ld n o t fi n d a r o o m a n d w e o n ly h a d ti ll 11 o ’
c lo c k to f in a l is e th e d is c u s s i o n s o n N k o n y e n i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w - b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d w i th th e m e e t in g . H o w
d i d y o u r e c e iv e th is n e w s th a t o n e , th e d e c is io n - a d e c is io n h a d

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a lr e a d y b e e n ta k e n to w i t h d r a w t h e d e c is io n t o - t o w i th d r a w c h a r g e s
a g a in s t M a b u y a k h u l u a n d t w o t h a t t h e p e o p le w e r e t e l li n g y o u a b o u t
t h a t d e c is i o n t o w i t h d r a w th e c h a r g e s d id n o t s e e m t o h a v e ti m e to h e a r
fr o m y o u a n d y e t y o u a r e - y o u h a d s p e n t a l o t o f ti m e o b v i o u s ly a t
s t a te e x p e n s e t o d o a n e x t e n s iv e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o n th e s e m a t te r s .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, I g o t th e d i s t i n c t i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e y w e r e j u s t

g o i n g t h r o u g h a f o r m a l i ty o f - o f b e i n g a b l e to s a y w e c o n s u l te d w i t h
t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s .

Th e y a c t u a l ly d id n o t c a r e w h a t w e h a d t o s a y,

b e c a u s e o n e , w h a t I t h e n s a i d t o th e m w a s i f w e a r e g o in g t o d o th is
10

p r o p e r ly I n e e d t h r e e d a y s o f t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

I n e e d t o b r i n g a ll t h e r e p o r ts .

A ll t h e a n n e x u r e s a n d I

n e e d th r e e d a y s a n d I w il l w o r k th r o u g h i t w i t h y o u s y s t e m a ti c a ll y.
A l m o s t a s i f w e a r e g o i n g t o c o u r t to e x p l a i n t h e e v i d e n c e a n d s h o w
t h e m t h e d o c u m e n t s e tc e t e r a a n d I s a i d I n e e d t h r e e d a y s a n d t h e y s a id
we do not want this to be a long drawn out process.
W e n e e d t o f in a l is e o u r d e c is i o n t o d a y a n d y o u h a v e g o t t o 11
o ’ c l o c k . B a s ic a lly g e t o n w i th it .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

C o i n c i d e n t a l ly y o u h a v e t a k e n a b o u t th r e e d a y s to -

t o t a k e m e th r o u g h t h e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e - t h e m a t t e r.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, I - I d i d d o M r P a n d a y. S o t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n
separate to this.

S o th a t m a y h a v e b e e n th e r e , b u t C h a ir i f - i f a

d e c is i o n i s g o i n g to b e m a d e to w i t h d r a w a g a i n s t p e o p l e w h e r e t h e y a r e

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a lr e a d y b e f o r e c o u r t . T h e r e i s a n i n d ic t m e n t f o r r a c k e te e r in g w h ic h is
n o t is s u e d v e r y e a s ily b y t h e N PA a n d n o t v e r y o f te n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : Yo u a r e n o t g o i n g t o m a k e a d e c is i o n i n l e s s t h a n a n h o u r
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : To w i th d r a w. C h a ir, i t j u s t f e lt l ik e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:
10

T h e y h a d a lr e a d y m a d e u p t h e ir m i n d a n d t h is w a s a

f o r m a l i ty …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d C h a ir, i t f e lt l ik e t h e y a c t u a ll y d id n o t c a r e w h a t t h e
evidence was.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . T h e y w a n t e d t o fi n i s h a n d l e a v e .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a y A d v o c a t e D u n y w a w a s v e r y q u i e t in t h e
m e e ti n g ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, h e - t o m y r e c o ll e c ti o n h e s a i d a l m o s t n o t h i n g . S o
they …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w a s h e o n e o f t h e N PA p r o s e c u t o r s o r p e o p l e w h o
m a y h a v e p r e v i o u s s a i d t h e r e is a c a s e h e r e ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, h e w a s t h e p e r s o n t h a t w a s i n s tr u m e n t a l in d r a f ti n g
t h e in d i c t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : S o h e h a d b e e n p a r t o f t h is c a s e - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r f o r

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
h o w l o n g , b u t i t m u s t h a v e b e e n a l m o s t a y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o h e d r e w u p th a t i n d ic t m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : H e d id t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o h i s s u p e r i o r s in P r e t o r ia .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : H e a p p e a r e d in c o u r t w h e n t h e p e o p l e w e r e a r r e s t e d a n d
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR WHITE:

A n d h e w a s g o in g t o p r o s e c u t e th e m a t t e r i n th e H ig h

Court.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: So …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h i s - h i s v i e w a s fa r a s y o u k n e w w a s q u i t e c l e a r.
There was a case to - to prosecute?
MR WHITE:

Correct

C h a ir,

but

I

got

the

impression

that

th e

p r o s e c u t i o n t e a m h a d b e e n t o l d to ju s t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : B e p r e s e n t , b u t n o t t o b e i n v o lv e d i n t h e d i s c u s s io n …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

A n d C h a i r th e - i t - i t g o e s f u r th e r.

W h e n h e u l t i m a te ly

w i t h d r a w th e c h a r g e s i n c o u r t - A d v o c a t e D u n y w a .

He made a very

s p e c i f ic p o i n t o f s a y in g I a m w i t h d r a w i n g t h e s e - th e s e c h a r g e s o n
in s t r u c t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E : H e to l d m e h e d i d th a t o n p u r p o s e , b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t h is
v ie w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s n o t h is v i e w. Ye s .
M R W H I T E : H e o n l y d id i t o n i n s tr u c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I t s o u n d e d s tr a n g e a t t h e t i m e , b u t th a t is w h a t h e s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l it d o e s n o t s tr a n g e t o m e . Yo u k n o w v e r y o ft e n
la w y e r s h a v e a w a y o f p u t ti n g t h i n g s w h e n t h e y w a n t t o d is a s s o c ia t e
t h e m s e l v e s fr o m i t. S o I - h a s A d v o c a te D u n y w a b e i n g i n t e r v ie w e d ? I s
10

he going to be called?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir, I a m

not sure

if he

has

been

in t e r v ie w e d , b u t A d v o c a t e M lo ts h w a is g o i n g t o t e s ti fy t o d a y. H e is a ls o
in v o lv e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

No.

W il l

-

w il l

you

please

get

hold

of

Advocate Dunywa?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I w il l .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e n e e d s t o b e i n t e r v ie w e d if h e h a s n o t b e e n

in t e r v ie w e d . H e c o u ld t h r o w a l o t o f …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Light.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . H e c o u l d .
CHAIRPERSON: On how that decision came about …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - s o t h a t w e - i n d u e c o u r s e w e c o u ld h a v e h is

evidence.

Page 128 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I w i ll a r r a n g e th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w w h e n y o u w e r e t o ld t h a t y o u h a d

e s s e n ti a l ly 4 0 m in u t e s t o a d d r e s s w h ic h h a s t a k e n a f e w d a y s in t h is
c o u r t . W h a t d id y o u a n d L i e u t e n a n t- C o l o n e l D u P l o o y s a y a n d d o ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I m is s - I m i s s e d t h a t q u e s t i o n . Is i t a f t e r
t h e m e e ti n g o r is i t s t il l o n t h e m e e t i n g ?
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h e n th e y w e r e t o l d th e y h a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S t il l i n th e m e e ti n g ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Es s e n ti a l ly t h e y h a d 4 0 m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : To a d d r e s s t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

What did you do?

What did you and

C o l o n e l D u P lo o y d o ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, C o l o n e l D u Pl o o y w a s a ls o p a r ti c u la r ly ir r i ta t e d .
I m e a n th is w a s a m a t t e r w e h a d w o r k e d o n f o r y e a r s a n d h e m a d e t h e
20

r a th e r a b r u p t s t a t e m e n t t o s a y to A d v o c a t e M r w e b i y o u s e n d u s y o u r
d e c is i o n s i n w r i ti n g . T h e p o l ic e a r e n o t p a r t o f t h i s p r o c e s s . W e a r e
n o t g o i n g t o b e p a r ty t o a w h i t e w a s h t o w i t h d r a w t h e s e c h a r g e s b y
s a y in g y o u c o n s u l te d u s .
Yo u ju s t t e l l u s w h a t y o u r a n s w e r is , b u t C h a ir w h a t w e t h e n
d i d w a s in t h e t i m e a v a i l a b le a s b e s t w e c o u l d w e t r i e d to e x p l a i n a t a

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
v e r y h i g h l e v e l . T h e y w e r e n o t in t e r e s t e d i n s e e i n g d o c u m e n ts . S o y o u
c a n s e e j u s t fr o m w h a t w e h a v e d o n e f o r t h e l a s t d a y a n d a h a l f o n t h is
y o u n e e d t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e d e t a i l a n d t h e p r o c e s s .
S o th e y w e r e n o t i n t e r e s t e d in th e d e t a i l .

T h e y w a n te d t o

k n o w a t a h i g h l e v e l . S o C h a ir, w e - w e d i d w h a t w e - w h a t w e c o u l d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n th e h o u r h a d e l a p s e d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Th is w a s n o w i n r e g a r d t o M s N k o n y e n i ,
b e c a u s e th e y s a id a b o u t M s - M r M a b u y a k h u l u y o u m u s t n o t w a s te t h e ir
ti m e . T h e d e c is io n h a s b e e n m a d e .
10

M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. C o n t in u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n th e h o u r h a d e l a p s e d ?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, th e y s a i d t h a n k y o u f o r a t t e n d i n g t h e m e e ti n g a n d

they left.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t e ll m e m o r e a b o u t w h a t y o u s a i d t o th e m i f y o u
a r e a b l e to .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d y o u d i d th e b e s t y o u c o u l d d o w i t h i n t h e t i m e
a v a i la b le . D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h a t - w h a t y o u s a id o r i s i t … ?
20

M R W H I T E : C h a ir to m y - m y … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: What points you made?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I - I d i d n o t m a k e n o t e s . I t is s o m e e i g h t y e a r s a g o
o r s o , b u t t o t h e b e s t o f m y r e c o ll e c t io n .

W e h a d a h i g h l e v e l tr y t o

e x p l a i n t h a t w h a t I e x p l a i n e d ju s t b e f o r e - b e f o r e - t h is m o r n in g . W a s
t h a t t h e li n k o f th e - o f th e t w o p a y m e n ts o f R 5 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 w e b e li e v e d

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a s a n in v e s t i g a t in g te a m w e r e l in k e d to M s N k o n y e n i v i a Mr M k h w a n a z i .
T h a t th e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e t h a t t h o s e p a y m e n ts r e l a t e d t o t h e
Wa t a k a s , b u t i n f a c t w e r e p a id d u r i n g t h e p e r io d t h a t s h e w a s
in fl u e n c i n g t h e s i g n i n g o f t h e c o n tr a c t a n d p u t t in g p r e s s u r e o n - o n
o ffic i a ls i n th e d e p a r t m e n t to s i g n t h e c o n t r a c t w i t h In t a k a f o r O x i n t a k a s
a n d th e n w e a ls o r e f e r r e d to t h a t - t h a t S M S t h a t s h e s e n t to D r S a v o i
w h ic h I h a v e r e fe r r e d t o j u s t b e f o r e , b e c a u s e th a t w a s a c r u c i a l
r e fe r e n c e ju s t s h o w i n g h e r i n v o lv e m e n t in t h e p r o c e s s a n d - a n d w h e r e
h e r l o y a l ti e s l a y, b u t C h a ir th a t w a s - y o u k n o w th e y - t h e y d i d n o t
10

r e a l ly - t h e y w e r e n o t r e a ll y i n te r e s t e d in s e e in g h o w i t a ll f i t te d
t o g e th e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s t h e ir r e s p o n s e a f t e r y o u h a d t o ld t h e m
w h a t y o u c o u ld t e l l t h e m w i t h i n th a t ti m e ?
M R W H I T E : T h e y s a i d th e y w o u l d m a k e t h e ir d e c i s i o n . T h e y d i d n o t t h e y d id n o t t e l l u s w h a t t h e ir d e c is i o n w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h e y s a id th e y w o u ld m a k e i t. S o i t is l ik e t h e y
w o u ld m a k e i t l a t e r.
M R W H I T E : T h a t w a s m y i m p r e s s io n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t - t h a t w a s y o u r i m p r e s s i o n a n d th e n t h e y c lo s e d

20

t h e m e e ti n g ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o th e y i n fa c t d i d n o t g i v e y o u a n y m o r e t i m e
beyond that hour?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r t h a t ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, f o l l o w in g t h a t I h a d a - a m e e ti n g o n 2 M a y 2 0 1 2
w i t h A d v o c a t e D u n y w a a n d f o ll o w i n g t h a t m e e ti n g I s e n t h e r a n e m a il
w h ic h i s a t T S W 2 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Was it a lady?
M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say “her”? Was it a lady? I thought it was a
man - a man? Dunywa - Advocate Dunywa.
M R W H I T E : D u n y w a . It is - i t i s a m a n C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is m a n . O h . O k a y. I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d h e r.
M R W H I T E : N o s ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I thought maybe I heard you used the wrong - ja.

O k a y.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h e e m a il I w r o t e f o ll o w i n g th a t m e e t i n g is o n

page 1-9-8-2 in Bundle RR4D.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, m a y b e i f I c o u ld - s o C h a ir i f I c o u ld j u s t m a y b e

r e a d t h e e m a il a n d I w il l y o u …
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ja.

Yo u c a n r e a d i t .

T h a t is a n e m a il fr o m y o u t o

Advocate Dunywa?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir. T h is i s a n e m a i l f r o m m e t o F r e e m a n N o m v a l o
w h o w a s t h e A c c o u n t a n t- G e n e r a l fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. J a .
MR WHITE:

W h o w a s - w h o w a s t h e c o n t r a c t in g p a r t y w i t h P W C . H e

w a s p a y in g o u r f e e s e ffe c t iv e l y.

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H e w a s y o u r c li e n t?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : H e w a s m y c li e n t , b u t I w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : W o r k i n g u n d e r t h e d ir e c ti o n o f th e p o lic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h is w a s o n t h e s a m e d a y ?
M R W H I T E : S a m e d a y a s th e fo ll o w u p m e e ti n g …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W i th A d v o c a t e D u n y w a . 2 M a y 2 0 1 2 a n d I s a y :
“ D e a r Fr e e m a n , I m e t w i t h t h e p r o s e c u t o r s i n t h e
I n t a k e c a s e t h is m o r n i n g . T h e y in f o r m e d m e th a t t o
d a t e n o c h a r g e s h a v e f o r m a ll y - h a v e b e e n f o r m a lly
withdrawn from any of the …”
(Loud background noise)
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I t h in k I a m - w e m a y h a v e ju s t s p o k e n a t
c r o s s p u r p o s e s j u s t n o w. W h e n I s a i d y o u s e n t t h i s e m a il o n t h e s a m e
d a y I m e a n t o n t h e s a m e d a y a s t h e d a y w h e n y o u m e t Mr M r w e b i a n d

20

Mr Mosing?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o t tr u e ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a d a m e e t i n g w i t h A d v o c a t e D u n y w a a t s o m e

s t a g e a n d t h is w a s o n t h e s a m e d a y ?

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E : T h is e m a i l - s o t h a t m e e t in g w a s o n 2 M a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE:

A n d fo ll o w i n g th a t m e e ti n g w i t h A d v o c a te D u n y w a I s e n t

t h is e m a il …
CHAIRPERSON: On the same day?
M R W H I T E : O n th e s a m e d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Alright.

W e ll is t h e r e s o m e t h in g t o te ll m e

a b o u t y o u r m e e ti n g w i th A d v o c a t e D u n y w a o n 2 M a y …
M R W H I T E : S o h e p ic k e d …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Or is it contained here?
M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is th e r e s o m e t h i n g f o r y o u t o te ll m e a b o u t y o u r

m e e ti n g w it h A d v o c a te D u n y w a o n 2 M a y o r is i t c a p t u r e d i n th is e m a i l
to …
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, i t i s c a p t u r e d i n th e e m a i l C h a ir, b u t - b u t m a y b e

the important aspect …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I w o u l d lik e to h e a r w h a t …
MR WHITE: So …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e d is c u s s i o n w a s , b e c a u s e t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n I
20

g u e s s th e fi r s t m e e ti n g w i th h i m a f t e r y o u r m e e ti n g w i t h Mr M r w e b i a n d
Mr Mosing.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir w h a t - w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s h e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t
t h e A c ti n g D P P i n K Z N a t t h e ti m e - A d v o c a t e M l o ts h w a - w a s
c h a l le n g i n g t h e d e c is i o n t h a t h a d c o m e o u t fr o m A d v o c a te M r w e b i t o
w i t h d r a w th e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t N k o n y e n i a n d M a b u y a k h u lu a n d h e

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
in f o r m e d m e t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON:

By t h e n - b y t h e n t h e y h a d w i th d r a w n t h e c h a r g e s

a g a in s t

had

-

they

decided

to

w i th d r a w

the

charges

a g a in s t

M s N k o n y e n i a s w e ll b y t h e ti m e o f 2 M a y o f t h e m e e t in g .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE: So the decision had been made …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE: But they had not been formally withdrawn …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo h . O k a y. I n c o u r t?
M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e th e - t h e D P P i n K Z N h a d s a i d …
CHAIRPERSON: What …?
M R W H I T E : H e is n o t g o i n g t o w i t h d r a w th e c h a r g e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H u h - u h .
M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e h e f e l t th e r e w a s a c a s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d h e s a i d i f t h e y w a n t e d to w i t h d r a w th e c h a r g e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e N D P P m u s t t a k e h is d e c i s io n o n r e v i e w …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d h e s a i d i t - t h e y m u s t fo ll o w t h e f o r m a l p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o - s o h e - w h a t h e s a i d w a s t h a t to d a t e a t th a t d a t e t h e
c h a r g e s h a v e n o t b e e n w it h d r a w n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e t h e D P P is - i s p u s h in g b a c k a n d c h a ll e n g in g t h e
d e c is i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d th a t i t n e e d e d to g o - t o g o o n r e v i e w.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir th a t w a s o n t h e 2 n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I g u e s s th a t is w h a t - t h a t m e a n t w a s t h a t th e

N D P P w o u l d n e e d to r e v i e w t h e d e c is i o n t o c h a r g e t h e t w o in te r ms o f
t h e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty A c t . I t h i n k t h a t i s th e r e v ie w t h e y
10

may have been talking about …
M R W H I T E : T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O r t o - o r t o r e v i e w t h e d e c is io n t o w i t h d r a w, b u t i n

t e r m s o f th a t A c t .
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d - a n d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th a t

A d v o c a t e Ml o ts h w a - t h e D P P - w a n te d th e p r o c e s s to b e d o n e f o r m a l ly
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d th e r e a s o n fo r t h a t w a s h e b e l i e v e d t h e r e w a s a c a s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
20

M R W H I T E : H e h a d s i g n e d a l l th e o r i g i n a l w a r r a n ts o f a r r e s t p e r s o n a ll y
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: Himself …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d h e s a i d i f y o u n o w d e c i d e to w i t h d r a w t h e c h a r g e s …

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : F o l l o w a fo r m a l p r o c e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d th e n c o m e t o th a t d e c is io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M R W H I T E : B u t h e w a s n o t p r e p a r e d t o j u s t w i t h d r a w th e c h a r g e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e A d v o c a te M r w e b i t o l d h i m t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
10

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir th a t w a s o n 2 M a y 2 0 1 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e n y o u s e n t t h is e m a il t o t h e A c c o u n t a n t- G e n e r a l

o n t h e s a m e d a y.
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

J u s t t o u p d a t e h i m o n - o n th e s t a t u s o f

w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g , b e c a u s e e v e r y b o d y w a n te d t o k n o w w h a t w a s
h a p p e n in g w i t h t h is m a t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

What

then

happened

in

J u ly 2 0 1 2

to

A d v o c a t e Ml o ts h w a ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I r e f e r t o …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

I t h i n k w h a t is n e c e s s a r y t o j u s t s a y.

E a r li e r o n y o u w e r e g o i n g to r e a d t h is e m a i l, b u t y o u a r e n o t r e a d i n g i t
n o w a n d I t h i n k t h a t i s b e c a u s e y o u h a v e b a s ic a ll y t o l d m e w h a t is
c o n ta in e d i n i t.

Yo u - y o u t o l d t h e A c c o u n ta n t- G e n e r a l b a s i c a ll y w h a t

y o u k n e w u p t o t h a t s ta g e a b o u t w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g i n th e c a s e .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. S o e ff e c t iv e ly t e l li n g h i m t h e s ta t u s o f t h e

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
case.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE: What the process was.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
M R W H I T E : I t h a s b e e n s e t d o w n . J u d g e M c L a r e n h a s b e e n a l lo c a t e d .
S o m e p e o p le h a v e a s k e d f o r fu r t h e r p a r t ic u l a r s .

S o e ff e c t iv e l y

u p d a ti n g h i m . S o h e k n e w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

MR WHITE: The process.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r t h a t w a s o n 2 M a y. D u r i n g J u ly 2 0 1 2 a n d I r e f e r
to it at page 53 of RR4 paragraph 79.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t ?
M R W H I T E : M y a ffi d a v i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

S o d u r in g J u ly 2 0 1 2 A d v o c a t e M l o ts h w a w h o w a s t h e

A c ti n g D P P i n K Z N w a s r e p l a c e d b y A d v o c a t e N o k o a n d s h o r tl y
t h e r e a f te r i n m id - A u g u s t 2 0 1 2 t h e c h a r g e s w e r e w it h d r a w n a g a i n s t Ms 20

Mr Mabuyakhulu and Ms Nkonyeni.

S o C h a ir th e r e w a s a n u m b e r o f

s t o r ie s a t th e ti m e t h a t it w a s j u s t a r o t a ti o n a l th in g o f A c ti n g D P P.
S o e v e r y b o d y w a s b e i n g g iv e n a c h a n c e .
coincidence

is

ju s t

withdraw the charges.

uncanny

that

Chair the - the

A d v o c a t e M l o ts h w a

I t t a k e s s o m e m o n th s .

r e fu s e s

to

He is replaced by

A d v o c a t e N o k o a n d a c o u p l e o f w e e k s l a te r t h e c h a r g e s a r e w i t h d r a w n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a s fa r a s y o u k n o w w h e n A d v o c a te N o k o w i th d r e w
t h e c h a r g e s t h e r e v i e w p r o c e s s t h a t A d v o c a te M l o ts h w a h a d s a i d h e
w a n t e d t o h a p p e n - t h e f o r m a l p r o c e s s t h a t w o u l d le d t o t h e N D P P
m a k i n g a d e c is io n h a d n o t h a p p e n e d .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, i t d i d n o t h a p p e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o y o u h a v e a n - a n Ac t in g - a A c ti n g D P P w h o
r e fu s e s t o w i t h d r a w th e c h a r g e s w h e n M r M r w e b i a n d M r M o s in g s a y
t h e y s h o u l d b e w i th d r a w n a n d h e in s is t s t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a p r o p e r
la w fu l p r o c e s s f o l lo w e d in t e r ms o f t h e A c t . T h e n h e g e t s r e m o v e d a n d
10

s o m e b o d y e l s e ta k e s h i s p l a c e a n d th a t p r o c e s s t h a t h e w a n t e d t o b e
p u r s u e d d o e s n o t h a p p e n a n d t h e n e w p e r s o n d o e s n o t t a k e lo n g b e f o r e
s h e w i th d r a w s th e c h a r g e s .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d b e f o r e s h e w i t h d r e w th e c h a r g e s d id s h e
e v e r a s k y o u o r C o l o n e l D u P lo o y to b r i e f h e r o n t h e m a t t e r ? A s k f o r
d o c u m e n ts , e x p l a i n t h e m a t t e r to h e r ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I w a s n o t a s k e d a n d - a n d t o my k n o w l e d g e n o r w a s
C o l o n e l D u P lo o y.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w l e d g e w h e th e r s h e w a s - s h e

w i t h d r e w t h e c h a r g e s b e c a u s e s h e c a m e t o t h e c o n c l u s io n a f te r l o o k in g
a t t h e m a tt e r t h a t t h e y s h o u ld b e w it h d r a w n o r s h e w a s w it h d r e w t h e m
in o r d e r t o c a r r y o u t a n in s tr u c ti o n fr o m s o m e b o d y s e n io r t o w i t h d r a w
them …
M R W H I T E : C h a ir …

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e if - if s h e w a s c a r r y i n g o u t t h e in s t r u c t i o n

m a y b e th e r e m i g h t h a v e b e e n n o n e e d f o r h e r t o i n t e r v ie w y o u o r
c o n s u l t y o u , b u t i f s h e w a s m a k in g h e r o w n d e c is i o n . O n e w o u l d h a v e
e x p e c te d t h a t s h e w o u l d w a n t t o c o n s u l t w i t h t h e in v e s ti g a t in g o ff ic e r
and yourself.
MR WHITE:
very short.

C h a ir, w e w e r e n o t c o n s u l t e d .

T h e - t h e t i m e fr a m e w a s

I f o n e w a s t o s t u d y t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t a r e in t h e d o c k e t

w h ic h a r e t h e f o r e n s ic r e p o r t s , t h e a n n e x u r e s a n d a ll th e a ffi d a v i ts o f
a l l th e - th e f a c t u a l w it n e s s e s . I f o n e w a s t o lo o k a t t h a t c o l d a n d r e a d
10

it . It is g o i n g t o t a k e w e e k s a n d w e e k s o f t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : It is n o t - it is n o t g o in g t o b e s o m e t h i n g y o u c a n j u s t d o i n
a n a f te r n o o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir - s o j u s t i n r e s p e c t o f th e ti m e a v a i la b le …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE: And considering that she was the new …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A c ti n g D P P.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : E v e n i f s h e s p e n t e v e r y d a y w o r k in g o n it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

S h e p r o b a b ly w o u ld n o t h a v e g o t th r o u g h a l l t h e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E : B y th e ti m e s h e m a d e t h e d e c is i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o th e o n l y i n f e r e n c e I c o u l d d r a w w o u ld b e t h a t i t w a s - it
w a s o n a n in s t r u c t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M R W H I T E : J u s t b e c a u s e o f t h e ti m e a v a i l a b l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i f s h e - if s h e h a d t a k e n t h e tr o u b l e t o r e a d a s

m u c h a s s h e w o u ld h a v e h a d to r e a d i n o r d e r t o a r r iv e a t a d e c is io n .
S h e p r o b a b ly w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d t o s p e a k t o t h e i n v e s ti g a t i n g o ff ic e r
10

a n d y o u w o u ld h a v e k n o w n e v e n i f h e d i d n o t - s h e d i d n o t s p e a k to
you.
M R W H I T E : I w o u ld h a v e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w h a d s h e r e a d a ll t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d a l l

y o u r r e p o r ts , in y o u r v i e w is it c o n c e iv a b le th a t s h e c o u ld h a v e c o m e to
a d e c is io n n o t to p r o s e c u te ?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir t h e f a c ts a r e th e s a m e f a c ts I p r e s e n t e d h e r e a t a

h i g h le v e l s o t h e r e ’s a lo t m o r e c o n t e n t a n d d e t a i l b e h i n d t h a t , i t ’s j u s t
m o r e e v i d e n c e s u p p o r ti n g w h a t h a p p e n e d . S o C h a ir t h e d e c is io n w o u ld
20

b e h e r i n t e r p r e ta t io n o f t h o s e f a c ts b u t a l o t o f o t h e r p e o p le in th e N PA
p r i o r to t h a t h a d c o m e to a d e c is i o n , t h e r e w a s a c a s e .

So how you

w o u ld c o m e t o – I k n o w la w y e r s c o m e t o d i ff e r e n t d e c is io n s b a s e d o n
t h e s a m e fa c ts b u t i t a p p e a r e d t h a t t h e f a c ts w e r e n ’ t r e a l ly t h a t
i m p o r t a n t i n t h i s d e c is io n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And when you say you made numerous

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
p r e s e n t a ti o n s

to

prosecutors

at

th e

N PA ,

was

that

to

several

prosecutors?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir I c a n r e m e m b e r a c o u p l e o f m e e t i n g s a t th e V G M

B u il d i n g w h e r e th e r e w a s p r o b a b ly 3 0 p e o p l e in th e r o o m w h e r e t h is
m a t t e r w a s d is c u s s e d .

So you know it wasn’t – and they were senior

p e o p l e i t w a s n ’ t j u n i o r p e o p le t h a t w e r e i n v o lv e d a n d C h a ir – b u t j u s t
t h e r i g o r o u s p r o c e s s to g e t t o a r a c k e t e e r i n g c e r ti f ic a t e is n o t
s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a p p e n s v e r y e a s i ly i n th e N PA .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h e r e m u s t b e a r e a s o n w h y t h e A c t r e q u ir e s t h a t

r a c k e t e e r i n g c h a r g e s b e p u r s u e d o n ly a f t e r t h e N D P P h a s is s u e d a
c e r t if ic a te , t h a t ’s w h a t , i n p a r t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y t h a t i s s i m p l y b e c a u s e th e i d e a is th a t t h i s is a
s p e c i a l k i n d o f c r i m e a n d t h e i d e a i s t h a t i t m u s t h a v e r e c e iv e d
c o n s i d e r a ti o n a n d a t t e n ti o n o f t h e h i g h e s t o ff ic e r i n t h e N PA b e fo r e
a n y b o d y i s c h a r g e d w it h i t .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

N o w w h a t d o y o u s a y a b o u t M r M g w e b i ’s

a n d M r M o s in g ’s v i e w o r c o n c lu s i o n t h a t t h e r e w a s n o c a s e a g a i n s t b o t h
20

Mr Mabuyakhulu and Ms Nkonyeni and maybe I must just say that there
w a s n o p r i m a f a c i e c a s e b e c a u s e t h a t’s t h e c o n c lu s i o n t h e y m u s t h a v e
reached.

A t t h a t s t a g e t h e y a r e n o t l o o k i n g a t w h e t h e r t h e r e ’s a

c o n c l u s iv e c a s e .

T h e y a r e s u p p o s e d to lo o k a t w h e t h e r th e r e i s a

p r i m a f a c ie c a s e w h ic h t h e a c c u s e d m u s t a n s w e r i n t h e l ig h t o f t h e w o r k
y o u h a d d o n e in t h e l i g h t o f t h e f a c ts t h a t y o u k n e w a b o u t t h e c a s e a s

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
p a r t o f – a r is in g o u t o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n , w h a t d o y o u s a y a b o u t th a t
d e c is i o n o r th a t c o n c l u s i o n ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir j u s t to c l a r i f y … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I a c c e p t th a t y o u a r e n o t a l a w y e r.
M R W H I T E : O k s o t h a t i s w h a t I w a s g o i n g t o s a y, I a m a n a c c o u n t a n t
b y tr a i n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t y o u h a v e d e a l t w it h th e s e ty p e s o f c r i m e s fo r
around 20 or more years.
MR WHITE:
10

S o C h a i r i t j u s t d i d n ’ t m a k e s e n s e , s o o n t h e f a c ts a s I

k n e w t h e m th a t w a s s u p p o r te d b y th e m o s t p a r t b y d o c u m e n ts th e
d e c is i o n j u s t a p p e a r e d i ll o g i c a l a n d i t a p p e a r e d t h a t i t w a s m a d e fo r a n
u l t e r i o r m o t iv e it d id n ’t – a n d th a t w a s a l s o fr o m a ll m y d is c u s s i o n s w i t h
t h e v a r i o u s p r o s e c u t o r s t h a t h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d e tc . th e r e w a s n o l e g a l
b a s is a n d I n e v e r s a w – C h a i r th e o t h e r p o i n t to m a k e is w h e n t h e s e
k in d o f d e c is i o n s a r e m a d e , n o r m a ll y i t ’s n o t s o l a t e i n t h e p r o c e s s i t ’s
n o t w h e n t h e p e r s o n ’s a lr e a d y a p p e a r i n g i n C o u r t a n d it ’s s e t d o w n
t h e r e ’s n o r m a l ly a r e v i e w d o n e b y t h e P r o s e c u t o r n o r m a l ly, m a y b e
s o m e o n e m o r e s e n i o r a n d t h e y w il l lo o k a t t h e e v i d e n c e a n d s a y, y o u ’v e
g o t a g a p o v e r h e r e , y o u n e e d t o fi ll t h a t g a p o t h e r w is e w e ’r e g o i n g t o

20

h a v e a p r o b le m i f w e g o to C o u r t , g o a n d l o o k f o r m o r e e v id e n c e , m o r e
d o c u m e n ts , f in d a fa c tu a l w i tn e s s th a t w a s a t a m e e t in g o r w a s i n v o lv e d
in s o m e p r o c e s s . S o i t ’s n o t a d e c is io n , y o u t e l l u s w h a t y o u ’v e g o t a n d
t h e n w e ’ r e g o i n g to s a y th e r e ’s n o t h i n g . T h e y w o u l d n o r m a l ly l o o k a t i t
a n d s a y, h e r e ’s w h e r e y o u n e e d to d o s o m e th i n g f u r th e r.
d e f in i te ly w a s n ’ t t h e p r o c e s s fo ll o w e d h e r e .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a t t h e m e e ti n g w h ic h y o u a t te n d e d w h e r e M r

M g w e b i a n d M r M o s i n g w e r e p r e s e n t , d i d t h e y e v e r g iv e a n y r e a s o n f o r
t h e c o n c l u s io n t h a t t h e y h a d a lr e a d y r e a c h e d th a t t h e r e w a s n o c a s e
a g a in s t M r M a b u y a k h u l u a n d t h e y h a v e d e c i d e d o r t h e d e c is i o n h a s
b e e n m a d e t o w i th d r a w t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir t h e y j u s t s a id , t h e r e ’s n o e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d i d t h e y r e a s o n t h a t o u t to s a y w h a t w a s t h e

b a s is f o r s a y in g th e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir t h e y j u s t r e f u s e d to d is c u s s i t b e c a u s e t h e y s a i d t h e
10

d e c is i o n ’s a l r e a d y m a d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d w h e n w e t r i e d t o p r o b e i t , th e y s a i d w e ’ r e w a s ti n g t i m e
a n d y o u ’v e o n ly g o t a n h o u r s o t h a t t o p ic ’s c l o s e d , n o w l e t ’s ta lk a b o u t
N k o n y e n i. T h e y w e r e n o t in t e r e s t e d in d i s c u s s i n g i t a t a l l.
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u e s ta b lis h f r o m t h e m , in o n e w a y o r a n o th e r,

a t th a t m e e t in g o r a f t e r a s t o w h o e x a c tl y h a d m a d e t h a t d e c is io n w a s i t
t h e m o r w a s i t s o m e b o d y e ls e ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r I h a d n o i n t e r a c ti o n w i t h th e a ft e r t h a t m e e t in g s o
t h e r e w a s n o fu r t h e r o p p o r t u n i ty t o a s k t h a t q u e s ti o n b u t t h e y n e v e r
20

s a i d a t t h e m e e ti n g s o I n e v e r h e a r d w h e t h e r i t w a s s o m e o n e e ls e w h o
told them to do it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : O r w h e t h e r t h e y j u s t d i d i t o n t h e ir o w n b e h a l f .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t t h a t t h e w a y th e y

s p o k e a b o u t t h e d e c is i o n , o r le t m e p u t it t h i s w a y, d i d y o u g e t a n y

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i m p r e s s io n w h e th e r w h e n t h e y s a id th e d e c i s i o n h a d b e e n m a d e t h a t
m e a n t t h a t t h e y h a d m a d e t h e d e c is i o n o r w a s i t n e u tr a l t h a t t h e y w e r e
n o t i n d ic a ti n g w h o h a d m a d e th e d e c is io n , t h e y ’ r e s i m p l y s a y i n g , th a t
d e c is i o n h a s b e e n m a d e a n d d o n ’ t w a s t e o u r t i m e b e c a u s e i t fu t il e to
t a lk a b o u t i t ?
MR WHITE:

C h a i r i t w a s n ’ t c le a r w h e t h e r it w a s t h e ir d e c is i o n o r

s o m e b o d y e l s e h a d t o l d t h e m , t h e y ju s t s a i d t h e d e c is io n h a s b e e n
made.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr W h i t e y o u s a y i n

p a r a g r a p h 7 9 th e c h a r g e s w e r e a ls o w i th d r a w n a g a in s t M s P e n d e l a , M r
Thusi and Mr Blows, who were they?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h o s e w e r e th e a t to r n e y s t h a t w o r k e d f o r K u b o n i
S h e z i A t t o r n e y s s o t h e y w e r e t h e p e o p l e th a t h a d b e e n m a k i n g t h e
p a y m e n t s o u t o f t h e Tr u s t a c c o u n t .

S o o r i g in a l ly t h e y w e r e c h a r g e d

w i t h a m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g c h a r g e b u t o b v i o u s ly i f y o u ’r e g o in g t o s t a r t
w i t h d r a w in g c h a r g e s a g a in s t p e o p le f u r th e r d o w n t h e l in e , a n d li k e w is e
t h e c h a r g e a g a i n s t M r Mk h w a n a z i w a s w i t h d r a w n b e c a u s e th e c h a r g e
a g a in s t N k o n y e n i h a d b e e n w i t h d r a w n . S o t h e p e o p l e o n t h e p e r i p h e r y
20

o f t h e t w o M E C ’s th e c h a r g e s a g a in s t t h e m , e v e n a l t h o u g h i t w a s n ’ t
d is c u s s e d a t t h e m e e ti n g th e y w e r e u l t i m a te ly w i t h d r a w n a g a i n s t th e m
la t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t th e w i th d r a w a l o f

c h a r g e s a g a i n s t t h o s e p e o p l e w a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f th e d e c i s i o n to
w i t h d r a w c h a r g e s a g a i n s t t h e tw o M E C ’s ?

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w y o u ’v e t o l d t h e C h a ir t h a t A d v o c a t e

D h a n w a m a d e a p o in t w h e n h e w a s r e q u ir e d t o f o r m e r ly w i t h d r a w th e s e
c h a r g e s i n C o u r t a n d y o u s a i d h e s a id ,
“ I’ m w i t h d r a w i n g t h e s e c h a r g e s o n i n s tr u c ti o n s ” ,
D i d y o u h a v e a c a u s e , a f t e r t h is t o d is c u s s w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d
with Advocate Mlotshwa?
MR WHITE:
10

C h a ir I d i d , s o A d v o c a t e M lo ts h w a w a s t h e a c ti n g D P P

t h a t h a d b e e n r e p l a c e d b y A d v o c a te N o k o a n d C h a ir I b u m p e d i n t o h i m ,
I c a n ’t r e c a l l , I t h i n k i t w a s a t th e a ir p o r t o n o n e o c c a s io n a n d I w a s
t a lk in g t o h i m a n d h e s a id t h a t h e b e l ie v e d th e r e a s o n h e w a s r e m o v e d
as the acting DPP was because he had refused to withdraw these
charges.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o y o u r e c a ll w h o t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c
P r o s e c u t io n s w a s a t t h is t i m e ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I d o n ’ t s p e c i fi c a ll y … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s u r e Mr M l o ts h w a w i ll te ll u s y e s o k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H e ’s g o i n g to t e s t if y C h a ir.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A r e w e – h a s A d v o c a te N o k o b e e n in t e r v i e w e d
a r e w e g o in g to g e t h e r to c o m e h e r e a n d e x p l a i n s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R W H I T E : I t is t h e in t e n t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir, a f t e r t h a t , w h a t h a s
h a p p e n e d t o th e s e m a t te r s , b o t h h e r e a n d in t h e C a p e ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f c h a l l e n g e s b r o u g h t –

le g a l c h a ll e n g e s i n th e c a s e b r o u g h t b y D r S a v o i a n d In t a k a ’s l e g a l
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s s o t h e fi r s t l e g a l c h a ll e n g e t h e y b r o u g h t w a s t h e y
c h a l le n g e d w h e t h e r t h e w o r d s , “ o u g h t t o h a v e k n o w n ” a r e c o n s t it u ti o n a l
a n d t h a t o b v i o u s l y fo ll o w e d t h e p r o c e s s w h e r e i t w e n t t o th e S C A a n d i t
t h e n w e n t t o t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t a n d C h a ir p r o b a b l y k n o w s b e t te r
t h a n I d o , i t w a s f o u n d t h a t th e y a r e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l b u t t h a t w a s ju s t a
10

d e l a y i n g p r o c e s s , i t d e la y e d i t b y a l m o s t t w o y e a r s a n d i n th e – p a r tw a y
t h r o u g h th a t a p p e a l p r o c e s s i n M a y o f 2 0 1 3 th e y fi le d n o tic e t h a t t h e y
w e r e g o i n g to a p p ly fo r a p e r m a n e n t s t a y o f p r o s e c u t io n a n d t h e m a i n
r e a s o n s fo r t h a t p e r m a n e n t s ta y, a p a r t fr o m v a r i o u s o th e r s w e r e t h a t
t h e p o l i ti c i a n s h a d b e e n t r e a te d d i ffe r e n tl y t o D r S a v o i a n d t h e I n t a k a
p e o p l e . S o t h e y w e r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e ’s n o t e q u a l tr e a t m e n t o f a ll t h e
a c c u s e d a n d i f t h e c h a r g e s w e r e w i th d r a w n a g a i n s t t h e p o l it ic ia n s th e
c h a r g e s a g a in s t D r S a v o i a n d M r [i n d is ti n c t ] s h o u l d a l s o b e w i th d r a w n ,
t h a t ’s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s fo r t h e a p p li c a ti o n s f o r a p e r m a n e n t s t a y.
C h a ir t h a t m a tt e r I w a s c o n s u lt e d w i th … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d , th e

w i t h d r a w o f c h a r g e s i n r e l a ti o n to K Z N w e r e t h e c h a r g e s w i t h d r a w n
a g a in s t e v e r y a c c u s e d o r w a s it t h e tw o M E C ’s p lu s d e p a r t m e n t a l
p e o p l e i n th e ir d e p a r t m e n ts a n d M r M k h w a n a z i o n ly a n d D r S a v o i a n d
o th e r s d i d n o t h a v e t h e ir c h a r g e s w i th d r a w n a g a i n s t th e m ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir i t w a s a g a i n s t t h e M E C , th e t w o M E C ’s a n d th o s e

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
a tt o r n e y s a n d Mr M k h w a n a z i , s o i t w a s t h e m , t h e r e w a s a ls o c h a r g e s
a g a in s t – a t a l a t e r p o in t a g a i n s t M r G r e e n - T h o m p s o n a n d D r M b e l e
w h o w e r e a l s o h e a d s o f D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h , t h e y w e r e a ls o
withdrawn against.

S o t h e o th e r o ffic i a ls w it h in th e D e p a r t m e n t o f

H e a lt h a s w e ll a s M r Ts h a b a la l a fr o m P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y a s w e ll a s t h e
p e o p l e fr o m In t a k a , t h o s e c h a r g e s s t a y e d .

So some were withdrawn

a n d , C h a ir i f I u n d e r s t a n d t h e r e ’s e it h e r 11 o r 1 2 a c c u s e d th a t a r e s ti ll
before Court.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u e v e r g e t a c h a n c e t o a p p ly y o u r m in d t o t h e
10

f a c t t h a t c h a r g e s w e r e w i th d r a w n a g a i n s t s o m e a n d n o t a g a i n s t o t h e r s
a n d w e r e y o u a b l e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e b a s is o f t h e w i t h d r a w a l i n t e r m s o f
e v i d e n c e t o s a y, w e ll m a y b e I d o u n d e r s t a n d a l i tt l e b i t a b o u t s o a n d
s o , th e c h a r g e s b e in g w i t h d r a w n , y o u k n o w, b u t I c a n ’t u n d e r s ta n d t h e
w i t h d r a w a l a g a i n s t s o a n d s o o r I c a n ’t u n d e r s t a n d w h y, i f th e r e ’s n o
c a s e a g a in s t s o a n d s o , a n d c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m o r h e r a r e w i t h d r a w n ,
why that one remains?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h a t ’s – a l o t o f t h a t , w h a t ’s l e f t d o e s n ’ t m a k e

s e n s e b u t C h a ir w h a t ’s h a p p e n e d in th e p r o c e s s i s t h e N PA h a s
c h a n g e d t h e p r o s e c u t o r s in t h e m a t t e r, A d v o c a te D h u n w a i s n o lo n g e r
20

in v o lv e d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h o is n o w in v o l v e d ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir, A d v o c a te Vi m b a n i fr o m th e S C C U i n D u r b a n is

c u r r e n tly h e a d i n g u p a t e a m a n d t h e r e a r e n e w P r o s e c u t o r s a l lo c a t e d
b u t C h a ir i t ’s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w a n t y o u t o fi n is h w h a t w e w e r e d e a li n g w i th ,

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
n a m e ly t h a t w h ic h y o u t h o u g h t d id n ’t s e e m t o m a k e s e n s e a b o u t
w i t h d r a w a l a n d n o t w i t h d r a w in g , I t h o u g h t y o u h a d n o t fi n is h e d w h a t
y o u w e r e te ll in g m e .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir it ’s c u r r e n t ly n o t c l e a r e x a c tl y w h ic h c h a r g e s t h e
a c c u s e d th a t a r e l e ft s ti ll f a c e . S o w e ’v e – s o th e S t a t e h a s w it h d r a w n
c h a r g e s a g a i n s t s o m e o f th e p e o p l e t h a t g o t th e a l le g e d c o r r u p t
payments but I don’t know what amendm ents have been made to the
charge

sheet because

i t ’s

j u s t n o t p r o c e e d in g

because

o f t h is

p e r m a n e n t s ta y a p p li c a t io n t h a t h a s b e e n f l o a t in g a r o u n d f o r s o m e s ix
10

y e a r s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I w o u l d lik e y o u i f y o u h a v e n ’ t d o n e s o , t o l o o k a t
w h ic h c h a r g e s w e r e w it h d r a w n a g a in s t w h o m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And does that withdrawal make sense if the charge

a g a in s t s o a n d s o i s n o t w i th d r a w n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir a n d I w ill a d d r e s s y o u o n t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I w o u ld lik e th a t to b e l o o k e d a t i n d e p th .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
20

MR WHITE:
was

S o C h a ir e v e n a lt h o u g h th e p e r m a n e n t s t a y a p p li c a t io n

i n i t ia ll y

–

n o tic e

of

m o ti o n

was

issued

in

May

of

2 0 1 3 … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I w a s a b o u t t o a s k y o u , d o y o u k n o w w h y i t ’s

t a k i n g s o l o n g t o p r o c e s s a r e v ie w a p p li c a t io n , to p r o c e s s th a t
p e r m a n e n t s ta y a p p l ic a t i o n ?

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
M R W H I T E : C h a ir t h e r e s e e ms to b e a r e l u c t a n c e o n b o t h t h e p a r t o f
t h e S t a t e a n d t h e a c c u s e d t o s e t th e m a t t e r d o w n . I n o w u n d e r s t a n d i t
is s e t d o w n f o r – i n t h e n e x t c o u p l e o f m o n th s , I t h in k i t ’s s o m e t i m e i n
M a r c h t h i s y e a r, s o s o m e , a l m o s t s e v e n y e a r s l a t e r i t ’s n o w f i n a ll y s e t
d o w n b u t C h a i r w h a t t h i s h a s d o n e , i t ’s e f f e c tiv e ly s t e r i li s e d th e w h o le
p r o s e c u t i o n b o th i n th e K Z N a n d i n th e N o r t h e r n C a p e b e c a u s e n o th i n g
has happened.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms

W e n t z e l I ’ m i n t e r e s te d

in

the

Commission

e x a m in i n g w h a t h a s b e e n h a p p e n i n g i n r e g a r d t o t h a t a p p l ic a ti o n fr o m
10

t h e ti m e i t w a s l a u n c h e d , w h a t h a s b e e n d o n e , b y w h o m w i th w h o m u p
t o n o w s o th a t w e c a n s e e i f t h e r e ’s a c a s e t o s a y, p e o p le w h o w e r e
s u p p o s e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i t w a s p r o c e s s e d q u ic k ly d i d n ’ t d o t h e ir j o b
b e c a u s e I c a n u n d e r s ta n d if t h e a c c u s e d w h o b r o u g h t t h e a p p lic a ti o n
d o n ’t m i n d i t i t’s n o t p u r s u e d – p r o c e s s e d q u ic k ly b u t I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d
– I w o u l d n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d w h y t h e N PA , if f o r a r g u m e n t s a k e t h e a c c u s e d
w e r e n o t a c ti n g d il ig e n tly i n p u r s u in g it w h y t h e y th e m s e lv e s w o u l d n ’ t
do that.

S o I w a n t to k n o w w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d , th e N PA h a s a lw a y s

h a d , e i t h e r a H e a d o r a n A c ti n g H e a d o v e r t h e y e a r s , h o w c a n t h a t
a p p lic a ti o n s ta y p e n d i n g f o r s i x y e a r s .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O r w a s th is a n o t h e r w a y o f le t ti n g t h is m a t te r g o

away?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir w h il e t h is – t h e r e w a s t h i s w h o l e , n o t h in g

h a p p e n in g I w a s th e n a p p r o a c h e d s o m e t i m e i n 2 0 1 7 , I’ m n o t – I c a n ’ t

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
r e c a l l e x a c tly w h e n b y A d v o c a te Vi m b a n i w h o n o w s a id s h e w a s
h e a d i n g u p t h e p r o s e c u ti o n a n d s h e h a d a t e a m a n d s h e w a n te d to
c o n s u l t w i t h m y s e l f r e l a ti n g to t h e e v i d e n c e w i t h th e n e w p r o s e c u ti o n
t e a m . C h a ir b e c a u s e I ’d h a d n o i n v o lv e m e n t w i th th is m a t te r f o r s o m e
fi v e y e a r s , I w e n t b a c k t o N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d s a i d , a r e y o u p r e p a r e d
t o a p p o i n t m e t o c o n s u l t w i t h t h e s e p e o p l e a n d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y s a i d
t h e y w e r e n ’t p r e p a r e d to p a y f u r th e r m o n e y f o r s o m e th i n g th a t d id n ’ t
a p p e a r to b e g o in g a n y w h e r e a n d i f th e N PA w a n t e d to c o n s u lt , t h e n t h e
N PA m u s t p a y.
10

I w e n t b a c k to t h e N PA w i t h th a t m e s s a g e a n d t h e y

s u b s e q u e n t ly a p p o i n t e d P W C o n th e 1 3 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 a n d s a i d ,
r ig h t y o u ’r e a p p o in t e d , w e w a n t y o u t o b r i e f u s a n d w e w a n t to c o n s u l t
in t h e m a t te r. C h a ir t h e fi r s t c o n s u l t a t i o n t o o k p l a c e s o m e s i x m o n t h s
la t e r o n t h e 1 2 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 8 … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h e r e m a y b e – t h e r e m i g h t n o t b e a n y

c o n n e c t io n b u t i t ’s in t e r e s ti n g t h a t a t te m p ts to g e t g o i n g o n t h e m a tt e r
t o o k – s t a r t e d o r r e s u m e d i n 2 0 1 7 w h e n th e r e w e r e t o b e c e r t a in
c h a n g e s i n t h e p o li t ic a l l a n d s c a p e o f t h e c o u n tr y.
MR WHITE:

C h a ir l o ts o f t h e s e t h i n g s h a p p e n , i f o n e d r a w s p ic t u r e s

b e t w e e n th e d a t e s a n d h a p p e n in g s t h e y … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s it ’s s o m e th i n g w e h a v e g o t t o l o o k a t b e c a u s e

d e c is i o n s o f t h e N PA s h o u l d h a v e n o th i n g to d o w i t h w h o is i n w h a t
p o s i ti o n w h e r e b u t p a r t o f w h a t th is C o m m is s i o n is d o i n g is l o o k i n g a t
t o w h a t e x t e n t th e N PA a n d o t h e r L a w E n f o r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s m a y,
t h e m s e l v e s h a v e – m a y h a v e a ll o w e d th e m s e lv e s t o b e i n fl u e n c e d i n
r e g a r d t o c e r t a i n m a t te r s a n d w e n e e d t o l o o k a n d r e m a in o p e n a n d

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lo o k a t e v e r y th i n g . M a y b e i t’s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h t h a t b u t w e m u s t
r e m a in o p e n a n d l o o k a t a l l p o s s i b i li ti e s .

Ye s , s o t h e N PA a p p o in t e d

you to …[intervenes].
M R W H I T E : In D e c e m b e r o f 2 0 1 7 to c o n s u l t , th e m e e ti n g t o o k p la c e o n
t h e 1 2 t h o f J u n e 2 0 0 8 , A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i w a s p r e s e n t t o g e t h e r w it h
t h r e e n e w p r o s e c u t o r s t h a t h a d n e v e r b e e n i n v o lv e d i n t h e m a t t e r
b e f o r e a s w e ll a s L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l d u P l o y a n d M r J a n s e n v a n
Vu u r e n , a m a n a g e r i n m y o ff ic e th a t t h a t h a d a s s i s te d m e w it h t h e
m a t t e r o r i g i n a l ly. C h a ir th e p r o s e c u to r s w e r e to t a l ly u n p r e p a r e d f o r th e
10

m e e ti n g , t h e y d id n o t h a v e a n y b a c k g r o u n d o t h e r t h a n w h a t t h e y h a d
s e e n o n T V, r e a d i n n e w s p a p e r s o r h e a r d in c o r r i d o r t a lk , t h e y h a d n o t
r e a d a n y t h i n g . I t h e n a s k e d t h e m , h a v e y o u r e a d th e r e p o r ts , th e y s a i d
no,

you

must

tell

us

about

it.

C h a ir,

w it h

respect

I

was

f a ir ly … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e a n n o y e d .
M R W H I T E : J a a n n o y e d is p r o b a b ly t h e r ig h t w o r d b e c a u s e n o w w e ’r e
g o i n g t o h a v e a tw o - d a y c o n s u l t a ti o n a n d t h e y k n o w n o th i n g a b o u t t h e
m a t t e r. S o I s a i d t o t h e m i t’s n o t m y jo b t o r e a d t h e r e p o r t t o t h e m . S o
w h a t w e u lt i m a t e ly a g r e e d w a s w e w o u l d g iv e t h e m a n o v e r v i e w, s i m i la r
20

t o w h a t w e ’v e p r o b a b ly d o n e to d a y C h a ir, w e s p e n t t h e b e t te r p a r t o f
t h e f ir s t d a y, g i v i n g t h e m a n o v e r v i e w o f w h a t th e c a s e w a s a b o u t a n d
w h o t h e p e o p l e w e r e t h a t w e r e i n v o lv e d . W e t h e n a g r e e d t h a t w e w o u ld
a d j o u r n a n d r e c o n v e n e o n t h e 1 6 t h a n d 1 7 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 to w o r k
t h r o u g h w h a t t h e y n o w, p e r c e i v e d th e c h a r g e s s h o u l d b e a n d t h e d e t a il .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o h o w b i g w a s th a t g a p b e t w e e n th a t f ir s t m e e t in g

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a n d th e n e x t m e e t in g , m o r e o r le s s ?
M R W H I T E : F o u r m o n t h s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o u r m o n t h s , o k a y.
M R W H I T E : S o i t w a s f r o m t h e 1 2 t h o f J u n e t il l t h e 1 6 t h o f O c t o b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e l e a d p r o s e c u to r n o w w a s w h o ?
M R W H I T E : I t w a s A d v o c a te Vi m b a n i C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir ju s t b e f o r e t h a t m e e t in g w a s t o t a k e p la c e , w e

c o n fir m e d , r i g h t th e m e e t i n g ’s ta k i n g p l a c e a n d w e w e r e to ld t h e y w e r e
10

n o t r e a d y fo r th e m e e t in g , t h e y n e e d e d m o r e t i m e t o s tu d y th e
m a t e r i a l … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w j u s t t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . N o w

w h e n y o u h a d t h i s m e e t i n g w i t h th e m w a s i t o n t h e b a s is t h a t t h e y
w a n t e d to – t h e y w a n t e d to c o n s u l t w it h y o u i n o r d e r f o r t h e m to m a k e
c e r t a i n d e c is i o n s a b o u t t h e a p p li c a t io n f o r a p e r m a n e n t s ta y, w a s i t –
d i d th e y w a n t t o c o n s u l t w i th y o u s o th a t t h e y c o u l d m a k e a d e c i s i o n –
y o u c o u ld a s s is t w i t h i n fo r m a ti o n f o r th e m t o m a k e a d e c i s i o n a s t o
w h e t h e r t o w i t h d r a w o r to r e s t a t e t h e c h a r g e s t h a t h a d b e e n w i th d r a w n
a g a in s t c e r ta i n a c c u s e d i n K Z N o r w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g ,
20

c o n s u l t a ti o n , t h a t t h e y c o u l d m a k e d e c is i o n s a s t o t h e w a y f o r w a r d i n
regard to those accused persons against whom the charges had not
b e e n w i th d r a w n ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir i t w a s t h e l a s t o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: It was the last one?
M R W H I T E : S o i t w a s h o w th is t e a m o f p r o s e c u to r s w a s n o w g o i n g t o

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p r o s e c u t e t h e r e m a i n i n g a c c u s e d a g a i n s t – w h o th e c h a r g e s h a d n o t
b e e n w i th d r a w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir s o – I m e a n I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t th e y w o u ld

h a v e s t a r te d w it h t h e c h a r g e s h e e t t h a t w a s c u r r e n t ly b e f o r e C o u r t,
they would have crossed out the charges that relate to the accused that
a r e w i t h d r a w n a n d t h e n y o u w o u l d w o r k w i t h w h a t ’s l e f t b u t it l o o k e d
lik e th e y w a n t e d t o s ta r t a fr e s h b u t C h a ir – s o fo u r m o n t h s w e n t p a s t
a n d t h e n t h e m e e t in g d i d n o t t a k e p l a c e b e c a u s e t h e y s a id t h e y n e e d e d
10

m o r e t i m e , s o th a t w a s O c t o b e r o f 2 0 1 8 a n d to d a te t h e m e e ti n g ’s n e v e r
b e e n r e s c h e d u le d . C h a ir i t s o u n d s i m p o s s ib l e b u t t h e y ’ v e n e v e r c o m e
b a c k a n d s a i d , w e ’r e n o w r e a d y l e t ’s c o n s u lt .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e N PA a p p o i n t e d y o u to w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 7

b e c a u s e th e y w a n t e d t o c o n s u l t w i t h y o u in o r d e r to t a k e t h e m a t t e r –
t h e c h a r g e s r e l a ti n g t o th e a c c u s e d a g a i n s t w h o m c h a r g e s h a d n o t b e e n
w i t h d r a w n , t o t a k e t h a t m a t te r f o r w a r d a n d t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g
s o m e t i m e i n 2 0 1 8 a n d i t w a s a d j o u r n e d a n d t h e d a te w a s a r r a n g e d f o r a
s e c o n d m e e ti n g t h e n t h a t m e e ti n g d i d n ’ t t a k e p l a c e b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e
n o t r e a d y, t h e y s a i d t h e y w e r e n o t r e a d y a n d i t ’s 2 0 2 0 n o w, th e y ’v e
20

never come back to you?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir r e l a ti n g to c o n s u l ti n g a r o u n d t h a t , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h e y ’v e b e e n i n to u c h w i t h y o u i t ’s b e e n a b o u t o th e r
matters?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g to w a r d s t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 9

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
w h e r e t h e y w a n t e d t o d is c u s s – o n e o f th e a c c u s e d w a n t e d t o e n te r i n to
a p o t e n ti a l p le a b a r g a i n a n d t h e y w a n t e d to ta lk a b o u t t h e d e t a ils
a r o u n d t h a t, t h a t ’s t h e o n l y f u r t h e r c o n s u lt a ti o n t h a t h a s ta k e n p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y a lr ig h t , y e s th a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir u n le s s t h e r e is

s o m e t h i n g e ls e y o u w o u l d li k e t o c l a r i fy o r a d d r e s s w it h th e w i t n e s s ,
t h a t c o n c l u d e s t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e w i tn e s s y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o I t h in k – I d o n ’t t h in k I’v e g o t fu r t h e r

q u e s t io n s , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r W h i t e fo r c o m i n g f o r w a r d to a s s is t
10

the Commission we may ask you to come back or we may correspond
w i t h y o u w i t h r e g a r d to t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e m a t t e r o r i f t h e r e ’s a n
a p p lic a ti o n f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e y o u a n d i f i t ’s g r a n te d t h e r e m a y
b e a n e e d fo r y o u to c o m e b a c k b u t – t h e n t h e C o m m is s i o n w i ll b e in
t o u c h w i t h y o u a t t h a t ti m e , b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h a n d y o u a r e
excused.
M R W H I T E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th e n e x t w it n e s s is r e a d y ?

20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a i r i f I m ig h t j u s t a d d r e s s y o u f ir s t ly, th e

n e x t t w o w i t n e s s e s a r e g o i n g t o b e C o l o n e l d u Pl o y a n d a ls o A d v o c a t e
M a n y a th i .

C h a ir t h o s e w i t n e s s e s a r e g o i n g t o b e l e d b y my le a r n e d

fr i e n d M r N i c h o l s o n b u t I j u s t w a n t t o a d d r e s s y o u o n o n e a s p e c t a n d
t h a t i s t h e is s u e t h a t w a s r a is e d b y t h e a t t o r n e y f o r Mr N g u b e n e a n d Mr
M a lik l a d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f th e p r o c e e d i n g s w h e r e h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u ’ r e

r e f e r r in g

to

counsel

fo r

the

Pr o v i n c i a l

Commissioner?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w w h a t w a s s a i d w a s th a t h e h a d i n fo r m e d
M r N i c h o l s o n t h a t th e r e w e r e t w o c a s e s i n w h i c h h is c l ie n t h a d s e t o u t
h e r v e r s io n a n d t h e r e w a s a v e r y c l e a r i m p l ic a t i o n a n d c r i t ic is m o f th e
Commission for not having pursued that or had a look at it or had made
a n y e ff o r t t o fi n d t h o s e c a s e s .
10

I w a n t t o p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d th a t fr o m

w h a t I u n d e r s ta n d fr o m M r N ic h o l s o n , th e c o n v e r s a ti o n t o o k p la c e in a
m u c h m o r e o b l iq u e w a y i n a d i ffe r e n t c o n t e x t . H e h a d n o i d e a t h a t w h a t
w a s b e i n g r e f e r r e d t o w e r e a ff id a v i ts t h a t h a d b e e n d e p o s e d t o b y h e r
in – r e l a t i n g t o t h is v e r y m a t t e r.

Be that as it may Chair what has

tr a n s p ir e d is t h a t a tt e m p t s h a v e th e n b e e n m a d e t o o b t a i n t h e t w o
m a t t e r s . Th e t w o m a t t e r s a r e t h e f ir s t , a n a ffi d a v i t d e p o s e d t o b y h i s
c li e n t i n a n a p p li c a t io n t o s tr i k e o u t c e r ta i n s t a te m e n ts m a d e b y
C o l o n e l B o o y s e n i n h i s a p p li c a t io n to h a v e h i m s e l f r e i n s t a t e d .
T h e s e c o n d , is a n a ff id a v i t d e p o s e d t o b y h e r i n h e r o w n
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d in g s .
20

N o w t h e f ir s t a ffi d a v i t w a s e m a il e d t o

M r N ic h o ls o n b y M r ( i n d is t in c t ) la s t n i g h t a n d I h a v e th a t b e f o r e m e .
T h e s e c o n d w a s r e tr i e v e d fr o m t h e a r c h i v e s i n D u r b a n a n d c o u r i e r e d
t h is m o r n i n g . I t a r r iv e d a t t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s O ffi c e s w h il e I h a v e b e e n
le a d i n g t h i s e v i d e n c e .
I have not had a chance to look at it.

S o C h a ir I c a n n o t

address you as to what is set out in the disciplinary proceedings.

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
These …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d m a y b e c o n s tr u e d a s i f

c o u n s e l f o r t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r c r it ic is e d y o u . I d o n o t k n o w
w h e t h e r y o u i n t e n d e d t o s a y th a t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o c r i t ic i s e y o u , b u t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I - I u n d e r s t a n d - I u n d e r s t o o d h i m to c r i tic is e
t h e C o m m is s i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d a l s o w h a t I w a n t e d t o c o r r e c t C h a ir is

that …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h e n t h i s w a s s a i d i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h i t
was said …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I p u b li c a ll y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S a i d to y o u …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B u t m y j u n i o r d i d n o t e v e n m e n ti o n t h is to m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir t h a t w a s n o t fa ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And I need to address that.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: An aspersion was created that perhaps he had
n o t d o n e h is jo b p r o p e r l y a n d h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I t w a s s o m e t h in g h e r e a lly s h o u l d h a v e to l d

me about …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B u t i t h a s b e e n e x p l a i n e d t h a t th a t d i d n o t

happen …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d I ju s t t h in k t h a t t h a t n e e d s t o b e

p u b lic a lly a d d r e s s e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no.

Th a t is f in e .

T h e - I j u s t w a n t e d to m a k e

s u r e th a t y o u a r e n o t u n d e r s to o d t o c o n v e y t h a t c o u n s e l f o r t h e
P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s c r i t ic is i n g y o u o r th e l e g a l t e a m b a s e d o n
w h a t h e m a y h a v e t o l d M r N ic h o l s o n t h e d a y b e f o r e .

Maybe there is

r o o m to s a y t h e r e w a s s o m e c r i ti c is m .
M a y b e m il d i m p l ie d to s a y, b u t th e r e i s - t h e r e is a v e r s io n i n
t h e p u b lic d o m a i n …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m m y c l ie n t …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w e e x p e c te d t h e C o m m i s s io n t o h a v e b e e n a w a r e
of that.

M a y b e t o t h a t e x te n t .

Maybe - maybe it can be said there -

t h e r e w a s s o m e c r i ti c is m , b u t I - I - m y o w n i m p r e s s i o n w a s t h a t
c o u n s e l fo r t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s a i d w h a t e v e r h e n e e d e d t o

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
s a y in a v e r y c o n s tr u c ti v e m a n n e r a n d i n a v e r y c o l le g ia l m a n n e r a n d
s o u g h t to c o o p e r a t e . T h a t w a s m y i m p r e s s io n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m a y h a v e - I c e r t a in ly e x p r e s s e d c e r t a i n s e n ti m e n ts
w h ic h m a y b e s e e n a s c r i ti c is m o f t h e l e g a l te a m o r w h a t e v e r, b u t i t
w a s n o t b a s e d o n - to t h e e x t e n t t h a t y o u c a n c a ll i t c r i ti c i s m .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s n o t b a s e d o n t h e f a c t t h a t t h e d a y b e fo r e y o u
w e r e to ld s o m e t h i n g . I s p e c i fi c a ll y s a id t h e r e h a d n o t b e e n m u c h ti m e
10

e v e n i f y o u h a d b e e n t o ld …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u w e r e to l d t h e d a y b e f o r e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a te v e r c o n c e r n s I h a d …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e b a s e d o n o t h e r f a c t o r s i n r e l a t i o n to n o t h a v i n g
t h a t i n fo r m a ti o n , b u t I t h i n k y o u h a v e p la c e d o n r e c o r d w h a t y o u w is h e d
t o p la c e o n r e c o r d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. I - I ju s t w a n te d t o c o r r e c t w h a t -

20

t h e c r i ti c is m I h a d l e v e l le d a t m y c o l le a g u e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: On national TV and I just …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Fe l t c o m p e ll e d t o a d d r e s s t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. O k a y. A lr ig h t .

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ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

If I c a n a s k h i m t o th e n c a l l th e n e x t t w o

witnesses.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll le t u s t a lk a b o u t th e f a c t th a t w e a r e a t 2 0

m i n u t e s t o f iv e . M a y b e h e s h o u l d ta k e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : To fo u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O h . Is i t to f o u r ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. I l o o k e d a t m y w a t c h I t h o u g h t i t w a s to
fi v e . O k a y. T h e r e is s ti ll t i m e t h e n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m h a p p y t h a t t h e r e is s t il l t i m e . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o le t u s - l e t h i m c a l l t h e w it n e s s a n d w e c a n ta lk

a b o u t w h e t h e r i t lo o k s li k e w e c a n fi n i s h w i t h i n t h e r e m a i n i n g t i m e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m h a p p y t o c o n t in u e u n til f iv e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr N i c h o ls o n .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : G o o d a f t e r n o o n C h a ir.

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CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : C h a ir, I i n te n d c a ll in g A d v M a n y a t h i . T h e
- t h e le g a l t e a m h a d i n t e n d e d o n c a l li n g t w o w i tn e s s : C o l o n e l D u P l o o y
a n d A d v M a n y a t h i.

H o w e v e r d u e t o t h e t i m e c o n s tr a i n ts a n d t h e f a c t

t h a t t h e y a r e b o t h fr o m D u r b a n a n d b o th o f t h e m h a v e p l a n e s a t 7 o ’
c lo c k w h ic h m e a n s t h a t t h e y b o t h n e e d t o b e o u t o f h e r e b y f iv e a t t h e
v e r y l a t e s t . I t h i n k w h a t w e m a y o n ly b e a b l e to fi n is h o n e w it n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th in k w h a t w e s h o u l d h a v e d o n e y e s t e r d a y. If w e a t
t h a t s t a g e t h o u g h t th a t w e w o u l d ta k e a s l o n g a s w e d i d w i t h Mr W h i t e .
10

W e s h o u l d h a v e e x p l o r e d th e p o s s i b il it y o f s t a r ti n g e a r ly - e a r l ie r t h a n
1 0 o ’ c lo c k , b u t i t m a y b e th a t i t w a s n o t f o r e s e e n t h a t w e w o u l d ta k e a s
lo n g a s w e u l ti m a t e l y t o o k w i t h h i m .
N o w o f c o u r s e t h e o n e c o n c e r n th a t a r is e s i f w e a r e n o t g o i n g
t o h e a r t h e e v i d e n c e o f o n e o f t h e m . I s t h a t c o s ts h a v e b e e n i n c u r r e d
t o b r i n g t h e m u p h e r e a n d i f a n y o n e o f t h e m h a s to g o b a c k w i t h o u t
g iv i n g e v id e n c e t h a t w o u l d m e a n fu r t h e r c o s ts w o u ld h a v e t o b e
in c u r r e d s o m e o t h e r ti m e w h e n th e y m u s t c o m e u p .
T h a t - I k n o w t h a t i n c h a m b e r s I i n d ic a te d t h a t w e c o u l d
c o n ti n u e u n ti l fiv e a n d I j u s t r e p e a t e d th a t , b u t i t m a y b e t h a t if n e e d b e

20

w e m i g h t h a v e t o l o o k a t p o s s ib il i ti e s .

N o w t h e o n e p o s s i b i li ty is

s u b j e c t t o m e c h e c k in g if I c a n m a n a g e i s t h a t I s i t a n d w e d e a l w it h
b o t h o f t h e m i f t h e y c a n g e t o r t h e o n e t h a t w i ll c o m e a ft e r - a f te r th is
one.
W il l - i f th e y c a n g e t l a t e r fl ig h ts , b u t I u n d e r s ta n d y e s t e r d a y
S A A w a s n o t fl y i n g . S o t h a t m i g h t m e a n t h e r e i s a r e d u c e d n u m b e r o f

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fl ig h ts a v a il a b l e , b u t I d o n o t a l s o k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y h a v e - m a y h a v e
c o m m i t m e n ts t h a t th e y n e e d to h o n o u r. S o d o - d o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g
a b o u t t h e s e is s u e s t h a t I a m r a is i n g ?
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : C h a ir, w i th r e g a r d to t h e f li g h t s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

We

have

a t te m p t e d

-

c e r ta i n ly

for

A d v M a n y a t h i - w e h a v e m o v e d t h e f li g h t b y o n e h o u r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :
10

Th e r e is n o f li g h t s a f t e r 7 o ’ c l o c k a s I

understand …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

Because what I had suggested was we

m o v e t h e fl i g h ts t o 8 o ’ c lo c k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

B u t t h e - t h e a d m i n is t r a t io n s t a ff h a d

c o m e b a c k to m e a n d s t a t e d t h a t t h e y c a n o n ly g e t a f li g h t a t 7 o ’ c lo c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

C o l o n e l D u P lo o y ’s f li g h t is a t 2 0 t o

seven.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : S o i t w o u l d n o t m a k e a n y s e n s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : To m o v e i t t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : To s e v e n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

O n my e s ti m a t io n C h a ir w e - w e m a y b e

able to conclude both witnesses …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : I n o n e a n d a h a l f h o u r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : I f w e c a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll …
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : S e e h o w it g o e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t u s tr y.

Let us start.

Ye s .

Let us just

a d m i n is te r t h e o a th o r a ffir m a t i o n t o t h e w i t n e s s .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k - I th i n k s w i tc h o ff th e o t h e r o n e . J a .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
A D V M A N YAT H I: B h e k i F e l ix M a n y a th i .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
20

A D V M A N YAT H I: I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , th e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th in g b u t t h e t r u th ? I f s o p le a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
A D V M A N YAT H I: S o h e lp m e G o d .
A D V M A N YAT H I: ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a t e s )

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CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you very much.

T h e n y o u c a n ju s t s w i tc h o n

y o u r m ic . T h a n k y o u . Ye s M r N ic h o ls o n .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : C h a ir, A d v M a n y a t h i i s g o in g t o d e a l w it h
t w o - w it h h is - w i t h o n e i s s u e .

H i s in v o lv e m e n t i n t h e - i n t h e

p r o s e c u t i o n o f C o l o n e l M a d h o e a n d T h o s h a n P a n d a y in th e c o r r u p t io n
m a t t e r. A d v M a n y a th i d o y o u h a v e y o u r a ff id a v it in fr o n t o f y o u ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: I d o .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : D o y o u c o n fi r m t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W e s h o u l d a d m i t t h i s f ir s t i s i t n o t ?
10

A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

That is correct.

W i t h t h e l e a v e o f th e

C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a ffi d a v it - th e a ff id a v i t o f M r B h e k i F e l ix M a n y a th i
w i ll b e a d m it t e d a s E X H I B I T R R 3 a n d w i ll b e m a r k e d a c c o r d in g l y.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : I a m in d e b t e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t in c l u d e s w h a t e v e r a n n e x u r e s th e r e a r e t o i t .

Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

Do

you

c o n fir m

your

a ffi d a v i t

w i th

a n n e x u r e s d e r i v e d fr o m p a g e s 1 t o 2 9 o f R R 3 ? D o y o u c o n f ir m t h a t is
y o u r a ff i d a v i t ?
20

A D V M A N YAT H I: I d o . H o w e v e r C h a ir th e r e is o n e a s p e c t th a t I w o u l d
lik e t o e l a b o r a t e o n r e g a r d in g p a r a g r a p h s 1 9 a n d 2 2 .

My e l a b o r a ti o n

w i ll … ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n . B e fo r e y o u e l a b o r a t e . Yo u d o c o n fir m t h a t
t h is is y o u r a ff id a v i t?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .

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CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o n o w y o u w a n t t o ta lk a b o u t t h e c o n t e n ts

a n d y o u h a v e s o m e th i n g t o s a y o n a c e r ta i n p a r a g r a p h . Is t h a t r i g h t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s . 1 9 a n d 2 2 . I w il l - I w i ll j u s t a d d s o m e t h i n g i n
d u e c o u r s e , b u t i t w il l n o t ta k e a n y th i n g fr o m t h e e s s e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m th e s u b s t a n c e . J a .
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o . Th a t is f i n e . D o y o u w a n t t o d o th a t w h e n
it is th e r i g h t t i m e a s y o u g i v e e v i d e n c e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

D o y o u c o n f ir m t h o s e a r e y o u i n i ti a ls a t

the bottom of each page?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : A n d a t p a g e 11 is th a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

D o y o u c o n f ir m t h e c o r r e c t n e s s a n d

tr u th f u l n e s s o f y o u r a ffi d a v it s a v e t o w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t m e n ti o n e d ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :
20

A d v o c a te M a n y a th i

where

are

you

c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: I a m i n p r iv a t e p r a c t ic e a s a n a d v o c a t e a t th e D u r b a n
B a r.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

Fo r h o w l o n g h a v e y o u b e e n in p r iv a t e

p r a c ti c e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h i s is m y s i x th y e a r.

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A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

Pr i o r to j o i n in g th e b a r w h e r e w e r e y o u

employed?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I w a s w i t h t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty a t

d i ff e r e n t l e v e l s , b u t w h e n I l e f t - m y la s t d a y w a s 3 1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 . I
w a s a S e n io r S t a t e A d v o c a t e b a s e d a t t h e o ff ic e o f t h e D i r e c t o r a t e o f
P u b l ic Pr o s e c u t io n s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : S o f o r h o w l o n g w e r e y o u a t t h e N PA ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Fr o m 1 9 9 7 t o 2 0 1 3 .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : C o u l d y o u ju s t b r i e fl y t a k e …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Would that more - about 15 years?
A D V M A N YAT H I: 1 9 9 7 / 2 0 0 7 - e i g h t , n i n e , 1 0 , 11 , 1 2 , 1 3 . 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

C a n y o u b r ie fl y t a k e th e C h a ir t h r o u g h

y o u r c a r e e r a t th e D e p a r t m e n t o f J u s ti c e a n d / o r t h e N PA ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

B e fo r e I b e c a m e a p r o s e c u t o r I w a s a c o u r t

in t e r p r e t e r e m p l o y e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f J u s t ic e fr o m 1 9 8 5 t o
J a n u a r y 1 9 9 3 a n d t h e n i n - fr o m F e b r u a r y 1 9 9 3 I th e n w e n t to f u l l ti m e
s t u d i e s a t th e U n iv e r s i ty o f Zu l u l a n d . I n o t h e r w o r d s I - I r e s i g n e d fr o m
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f J u s t ic e e ff e c ti v e ly 3 1 J a n u a r y 1 9 9 3 a n d t h e n 1 9 9 3 ,
20

f o u r, f iv e , s ix I w a s i n fu ll t i m e s tu d y a t U n iv e r s i ty o f Z u l u la n d d o i n g
B P r o c a n d t h e n I r e tu r n e d to t h e N PA i n 1 9 9 7 a s a n a s p ir a n t
p r o s e c u t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I - I g u e s s y o u - y o u c a m e t o th e N PA , b e c a u s e
f o r th e fir s t t i m e r a t h e r t h a n r e t u r n , b e c a u s e b e fo r e y o u w e r e in t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f J u s ti c e ?

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A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a n in t e r p r e te r.
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e c o m i n g t o t h e N PA f o r th e fir s t t i m e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: A c c u r a t e ly. C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: I - I s t a r t e d in t h e N PA i n 1 9 9 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : I n 2 0 11 w h e r e w e r e y o u e m p lo y e d ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: I w a s a t - a t th e O ff ic e o f t h e D P P a s a S e n i o r S t a te
A d v o c a t e . I w a s b a s e d i n t h e D u r b a n O ff ic e .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

And do you know who the DPP of KZN

was at that stage?
A D V M A N YAT H I: A t t h a t t i m e i t w a s A d v o c a t e S i m p h iw e M l o t s h w a . H e
w a s A c ti n g a s D P P.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : N o w i f w e t u r n t o y o u r a ff i d a v i t a t p a g e 1
p a r a g r a p h 4 . Yo u s ta t e th a t y o u w e r e a ll o c a te d a c o r r u p ti o n c a s e .
20

A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. M r M a n y a t h i s o y o u - y o u m a y h a v e b e e n
a t t h e B a r fo r s ix y e a r s , b u t y o u h a v e b e e n a n a d v o c a te fo r m o r e th a n
20 years.
A D V M A N YAT H I:

N o , n o , n o C h a ir.

I t i s a n i n t e r e s ti n g p o i n t.

n e v e r t h o u g h t I w o u ld le a v e t h e N PA .

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I - I

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: S o i t - i t w a s o n e o f t h o s e m in d - s e t a s p e c t s t h a t I d o
n o t n e e d to b e a d m i tt e d a s a n a d v o c a t e b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V M A N YAT H I: A s - a s a p r o s e c u t o r y o u d o n o t n e e d to b e a d m i tt e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V M A N YAT H I: Yo u c a n b e - th a t is w h y it is c a l le d a s ta t e a d v o c a t e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

W e l l I th o u g h t y o u - y o u a r e o n ly a s t a t e

a d v o c a t e i f y o u h a v e b e e n a d m i tt e d a s a n a d v o c a t e .
10

A D V M A N YAT H I: N o . N o t n e c e s s a r i ly. S o m e - s o m e …
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

S o y o u - y o u c a n b e a s t a te a d v o c a t e w i t h o u t

b e i n g a n a d v o c a te in t e r m s o f th e A d v o c a t e s Ac t …
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e i n t e r m s o f th e A d v o c a t e s Ac t y o u a r e o n l y

a n a d v o c a te if y o u h a v e b e e n a d m i t te d a s a n a d v o c a te . Is i t n o t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: I n - i n t h e s e n s e t h a t t h e d e l e g a t io n a n d a u th o r i ty t o
p r o s e c u t e is i n t e r m s o f N a t io n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g - P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i t y
20

A c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: S o y o u - y o u c a n b e a s t a te a d v o c a t e w i t h o u t b e i n g
a n a d v o c a te in t e r m s o f th e A d v o c a te s A c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Oh.

O k a y.

No.

I did not know that.

I - I

t h o u g h t y o u a r e c a l l e d s t a te a d v o c a t e , b e c a u s e y o u a r e a n a d v o c a t e

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e m p l o y e d b y t h e s ta t e . O k a y. A lr ig h t . I - I l e a r n t s o m e t h i n g t o d a y.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : A d v o c a t e M a n y a th i w h e n y o u - d i d y o u i n
f a c t r e c e iv e th is c o r r u p ti o n m a t t e r ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : D id y o u p e r u s e th e p o li c e c a s e d o c k e t?
A D V M A N YAT H I: I d id .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : W h a t w e r e … ?
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Mr N ic h o ls o n y o u j u s t s a i d t h i s c o r r u p ti o n m a t te r.

I

t h i n k y o u m u s t s p e c i fy w h a t c o r r u p ti o n m a t t e r y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

In d e e d C h a i r. I w a s g o i n g to c o m e t o i t

la t e r, b u t - b u t I t h i n k it is … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r s o m e b o d y w h o i s r e a d i n g t h e tr a n s c r i p t t o f o ll o w
t h e e v id e n c e t h e y w i ll n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th is m a t t e r is .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

A d v o c a te M a n y a t h i c a n y o u t e l l u s w h o

t h e s u s p e c ts in t h is m a t t e r w e r e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h e s u s p e c ts w e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s ti ll h a v e t h is m a t te r.
20

A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : Ye s . I a m c o m i n g t o - I a m c o m i n g t o t h e
e x p l a n a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d o y o u n o t g o t o i t ? Is i t n o t i n d i s p u t e ? W h y d o
y o u n o t g o to i t s tr a ig h t a w a y ?

I t is t h e A m i g o s m a t t e r o r w h a t e v e r -

w h a t e v e r. J u s t s p e c if y i t .
A D V M A N YAT H I: I w il l - I w i ll a n s w e r t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . Te ll u s w h a t t h e m a tt e r is fir s t .
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h e c o r r u p ti o n r e l a t e d to th e a l le g e d b r ib e r y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: G e n e r a l J o h a n B o o y s e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V M A N YAT H I: W h o w a s th e Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d o f t h e H a w k s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: A t t h e t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Oh.

O k a y.

T h a t is

th e -

the

Panday

and

Colonel Madhoe - Madhoe matter?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y.

A lr ig h t .

That is what I wanted so that

f u r th e r q u e s ti o n s a s t h e y f o l lo w - e v e r y - e v e r y b o d y u n d e r s t a n d s w h ic h
m a t t e r y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t , b e c a u s e t h e r e - t h e r e a r e v a r io u s m a t t e r s
t h a t h a v e t o d a y a n d y e s t e r d a y.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : I n d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : D id y o u p e r u s e th e p o li c e c a s e d o c k e t?
A D V M A N YAT H I: I d id .
20

A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

What

was

your

impression

of

th e

e v i d e n c e i n t h e p o l ic e d o c k e t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h e r e w a s a c a s e .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h a t is w h y I p r o s e c u t e d .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

N o w y o u - y o u m e n ti o n e d t h e n a m e s o f

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
t h e a c c u s e d a t p a r a g r a p h 6 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t a t p a g e - a t p a g e o f R R 3 .
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : W h a t w e r e th e n a m e s o f t h e a c c u s e d ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

C o lo n e l N a v i n M a d h o e a s i n C o lo n e l i n t h e S o u th

A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v i c e a n d b u s i n e s s m a n M r T h o s h a n P a n d a y.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : A t p a g e 2 o f R R 3 p a r a g r a p h 5 y o u s ta t e
that:
“ T h e c o r r u p t i o n c a s e r e l a te s to a c a s e o f - o f
p r o c u r e m e n t fr a u d . ”
10

A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

Who

was

the

prosecutor

of

the

p r o c u r e m e n t fr a u d i n v e s t i g a t io n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

B e f o r e th a t .

Yo u - y o u w e r e a s k e d th e

q u e s t io n w h a t y o u r i m p r e s s i o n w a s o f t h e c a s e …
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s a id th e r e w a s a c a s e . H o w s tr o n g w a s th e
case against the accused in your view?
A D V M A N YAT H I: I - I w ill b o r r o w fr o m w h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n s a id t o t h e
previous witness.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: I w a s s i tt i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: A t - a t th e s t a g e o f m a k i n g a d e c is io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: W h e t h e r t o p r o s e c u t o r o r n o t .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: A l l y o u a r e r e q u i r e d to lo o k a t is w h e t h e r t h e r e is a
p r i m a f a c ie c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h a t w a r r a n ts a p r o s e c u t io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: I n r e s p e c t o f w h i c h t h e a c c u s e d a r e r e q u ir e d b y l a w
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V M A N YAT H I: To r e s p o n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: S o th e r e w a s a p r i m a f a c ie c a s e .
CHAIRPERSON: There was a prima facie case?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I n - i n f a c t I m a y e l a b o r a t e C h a ir.

in v e s t i g a t io n p r o g r e s s e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V M A N YAT H I: A n d e v e n a t th e e a r ly s t a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: W h e n I e n r o l le d t h e m a t t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h e r e w a s a p r i m a fa c i e c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 172 of 212

That obviously

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V M A N YAT H I: A s - a s th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n p r o g r e s s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h e e v id e n c e w a s s u p p l e m e n t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o a s t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w e n t o n - o r i n a n y c a s e
s p e a k i n g g e n e r a l ly - a s th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n g o e s o n t h e e v id e n c e m i g h t
b e c o m e s tr o n g e r …
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e c a s e m ig h t b e c o m e s tr o n g a g a i n s t th e

accused …
10

A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r s o m e ti m e s i t c a n b e w e a k e r.
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V M A N YAT H I: To - t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M A N YAT H I:

To il l u s tr a t e t h e p o i n t I a m m a k i n g .

U l t i m a te ly I

d r a f t e d a n in d ic t m e n t a n d i n d ic t e d b o th a c c u s e d i n t h e H ig h C o u r t o n a
c h a r g e o f c o r r u p t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
20

A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

O k a y.

W h o w a s th e p r o s e c u to r i n t h e

p r o c u r e m e n t fr a u d i n v e s t i g a t io n ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ms Wendy Clark.

S h e th e n g o t m a r r i e d .

Clark was her maiden surname.

I have got the - the married surname there -

G r e e ff , b u t w e s ti ll c a ll e d h e r W e n d y C la r k .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : O k a y. I n w h ic h s e c t io n o f t h e N P P is s h e

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based?
A D V M A N YAT H I: I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : I n w h ic h s e c t io n o f t h e N PA is s h e b a s e d ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

M s C l a r k w a s w i t h th e O r g a n is e d C r i m e o f t h e N PA

w h ic h fe ll u n d e r th e G e n e r a l S e c ti o n .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

O k a y a n d c a n y o u j u s t b r i e f ly - d o y o u

k n o w a n y o f t h e f a c ts r e g a r d in g t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t fr a u d ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Th e fa c t s w o u l d b e b a s e d o n w h a t I w a s to l d w h e n I
c o n s u l t e d w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t e a m i n t h e c o r r u p ti o n m a t t e r a s w e ll
10

a s M s C l a r k h e r s e l f . I d i d c o n s u l t w it h h e r. T h e r e a s o n I m e n ti o n th is
is b e c a u s e I d id n o t r e a d th e fr a u d c a s e . I d i d n o t n e e d t o r e a d it . S o
t h e f a c ts a s I w a s in f o r m e d w e r e - w e r e t h a t in 2 0 1 0 w h e n t h e r e w a s
t h e S o c c e r W o r l d C u p i n S o u th A fr ic a .
P o lic e o ffi c e r s fr o m a l l o v e r t h e c o u n tr y w e r e d o i n g s p e c i a l
d u t ie s . O b v io u s ly a t s p e c if ic p l a c e s w h e r e t h e r e w e r e s t a d i u m s w h e r e
t h e m a t c h e s w e r e g o in g t o b e h e l d . S o y o u w o u l d fi n d p o l ic e o ffic e r s
b e i n g m o v e d fr o m t h e i r b a s e s to t h e s e d i ff e r e n t p l a c e s .

Th e y w e r e -

t h e y w e r e d o in g s p e c i a l d u ti e s a n d i n t h e p r o c e s s a c c o m m o d a t io n h a d
t o b e o b t a in e d f o r th e m a n d i n - i n t h e p r o c e s s o f a w a r d i n g te n d e r s 20

for lack of a better word.
I d o n o t k n o w w h a t th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w a s , b u t - b u t l e t
m e r a t h e r s a y i n th e p r o c e s s o f a w a r d i n g t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n t o t h e
S A P S i t w a s a ll e g e d th a t c o m p a n ie s - n o t o n e - c o m p a n i e s t h a t w e r e
owned by Mr Thoshan Panday - he was a businessman - were awarded
t h is p r o c u r e m e n t - s o t o s p e a k - a n d t h e c h a r g e s th a t - t h a t w e r e

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
c h a r g e d fo r t h e a c c o m m o d a t i o n w e r e - w e r e o v e r in f la t e d .
H e n c e t h e - th e R 6 0 m i ll i o n fr a u d b a s e d o n th e o v e r in f la t e in fl a ti o n o f p r i c e s f o r t h o s e B N B ’s /l o d g e s e tc e te r a .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : O k a y. D o y o u - w h o w e r e t h e s u s p e c ts in
t h a t fr a u d c a s e y o u ju s t m e n t io n e d ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

A g a i n a s I w a s i n fo r m e d b y m y c o l le a g u e a n d th e

in v e s t i g a t o r s it w a s th e s a m e t w o s u s p e c ts - M a d h o e a n d - a n d P a n d a y.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

Those

people

th a t

you

m e n t io n

at

p a r a g r a p h 6 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t ?
10

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

I f - if I m a y e la b o r a t e s o t h a t t h e C h a i r w il l

u n d e r s t a n d . M a d h o e w a s i n c h a r g e o f P r o c u r e m e n t i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l.
I th i n k th a t i s h o w h e f e a t u r e d i n - i n th e a ll e g e d fr a u d , b e c a u s e t h e
p r o c u r e m e n t f o r t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n h a d t o g o v ia h i m .

He was in

charge of it.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

O k a y.

A t p a r a g r a p h s 8 t o - to 1 8 a t

E X H I B I T R R 3 p a g e - p a g e s 3 a n d f o u r.

Yo u g iv e a b r ie f d e t a i l o f t h e

c o r r u p ti o n m a t t e r. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: S o r r y. W h i c h p a r a g r a p h s ? P a g e 3 .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :
20

I t is p a g e s 3 a n d f o u r.

P a r a g r a p h s 8 to

1 8 . O k a y.
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : W h o is t h e c o m p la i n a n t i n t h e c o r r u p ti o n
case?
A D V M A N YAT H I: C o m p l a i n a n t w a s G e n e r a l J o h a n B o o y s e n .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : A n d h o w d i d t h is c o r r u p ti o n o c c u r ?

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I t w a s a l le g e d t h a t C o l o n e l M a d h o e a p p r o a c h e d

General Booysen.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

P l e a s e d o n o t fo r g e t y o u r q u e s t io n

M r N ic h o ls o n .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Before you proceed I just want to talk about your

s t a te m e n t t h a t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s t h e c o m p l a i n a n t .

Ye s t e r d a y

d u r i n g Mr W h i te ’s e v i d e n c e r e f e r e n c e w a s m a d e to e i t h e r a n e m a il o r a
m e m o r a n d u m w h i c h w a s w r i t te n b y G e n e r a l B o o y s e n I t h i n k t o t h e H e a d
10

o f t h e H a w k s a t t h e ti m e w h e r e h e w a s r e f u ti n g t h e s t a t e m e n t m a d e b y I
t h i n k s o m e b o d y fr o m t h e N PA .
I t h i n k A d v o c a t e L e ts w a l o t h a t h e o r A d v o c a te N o k o .
one of the two or both.

One -

Th a t h e h a d b e e n t h e c o m p la i n a n t in th a t

m a t t e r a n d I t h i n k h e s a id w e l l h e w a s s i m p ly a w i t n e s s a n d t h a t - I
h o p e I a m - m y r e c o ll e c t io n i s c o r r e c t . I t h i n k h e s a id th e c o m p la in a n t
w a s t h e s ta t e . I - I m a y b e m is t a k e n a b o u t t h e s e c o n d p a r t, b u t it - b u t
h e - h e r e f u te d a n y s u g g e s ti o n t h a t h e w a s th e c o m p la in a n t .
A D V M A N YAT H I: I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t - w h a t w o u l d y o u li k e to s a y a b o u t th a t ?
20

A D V M A N YAT H I: I w i ll - I w i ll a n s w e r a s a l a w y e r a n d - a n d a f o r m e r
p r o s e c u t o r. H e - h e w a s t e c h n i c a lly c o r r e c t . I n - in t h e s e n s e th a t i t is
- i t is a la y m a n ’s p e r s p e c t iv e . I w i ll - I w i ll u s e th e e x a m p l e o f s a y m y
c a r is s t o le n . I g o a n d la y a c h a r g e o f th e ft o f m o t o r v e h ic l e . I r e g a r d
m y s e l f a s th e c o m p la in a n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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A D V M A N YAT H I: A n d i n fa c t th e p r o s e c u t o r s , t h e p o lic e a n d e v e r y o n e
w i ll s a y I a m t h e c o m p l a i n a n t . H o w e v e r i n t h e s e n s e t h a t t h e u lt i m a t e
d e c is i o n

whether

A u t h o r i ty.

to

prosecute or

n o t li e s

with the

Pr o s e c u ti n g

S o s tr ic tl y s p e a k in g y o u c o u l d s a y t h e N PA is th e

c o m p la i n a n t .
M o r e s o C h a ir p e r s o n y o u h a v e i n s t a n c e s - I w il l u s e s e x u a l
o ffe n c e s - r a p e .

Yo u w o u l d h a v e m a n y i n s t a n c e s e v e n w h e n I w a s a

p r o s e c u t o r th a t t h e s o c a ll e d c o m p la i n a n t w a n ts t o w i t h d r a w a r a p e
c h a r g e a n d a s a p r o s e c u to r y o u s a y n o .
10

I am not going to do it,

b e c a u s e y o u h a v e th e a u th o r it y i n t e r m s o f la w. S o i t - i t i s a m a t te r o f
p e r s p e c t iv e . S o B o o y s e n w a s n o t i n c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Well let us - let us look at that.

Using the term

c o m p la i n a n t i n t h e n o r m a l w a y i n w h i c h i t is u s e d w i th in t h e c o n te x t o f
criminal law …
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w i t h i n th e c o n t e x t o f c r i m e a n d p r o s e c u t io n .
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d i t b e a le g it i m a t e o r c o r r e c t u s e o f t h a t te r m t o
s a y h e w a s a - h e w a s a c o m p la in a n t i n t h e m a tt e r ?
20

A D V M A N YAT H I:

I - I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h is r e a s o n i n g w a s …

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e t e r m a n d o n

y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f h is r o l e i n t h i s m a t t e r.

W o u l d y o u - if - i f

s o m e b o d y s a y s h e w a s - h e w a s t h e c o m p l a i n a n t i n th a t m a t te r. W o u l d
- w o u l d i t fi t w it h in y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t a c o m p l a i n a n t is

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g e n e r a l ly u n d e r s t o o d t o b e - t o b e in t h e c o n te x t o f p r o s e c u t io n a n d
criminal law?
A D V M A N YAT H I: I w o u l d s a y p r o b a b ly n o t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: B a s e d o n t h e n a t u r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: O f - o f th e c h a r g e . I t is c o r r u p ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: H e - h e is a l le g e d ly b e i n g b r i b e d …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: In h i s o ff ic i a l c a p a c it y a s a p o lic e m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: S o i t i s n o t a p e r s o n a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I:

M a t t e r w h e r e l ik e th e e x a m p l e o f t h e ft o f m o t o r

v e h ic l e . I h a v e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: M a d e t h e - t h e p o i n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
20

A D V M A N YAT H I: S o h e - h e is j u s t a w i tn e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I:

In t h e s e n s e th a t h e i s b e i n g b r ib e d i n h is o ffi c i a l

c a p a c i ty a s a p o l ic e m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: S o h e - h e w a s - h e h a d a p o i n t to m a k e . S o h e …

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: H e i s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w to t h e e x te n t t h a t e i th e r A d v o c a t e N o k o o r

A d v o c a t e L e ts w a l o m a y h a v e i n o n e o r m o r e o f th e i r m e m o r a n d u m s
r e l a ti n g to t h e w i th d r a w a l o f t h e c h a r g e m a y h a v e s a id h e w a s t h e
c o m p la i n a n t i n t h a t m a t t e r. W h a t w o u ld y o u s a y a b o u t t h e ir u s e o f t h a t
t e r m in s a y i n g h e w a s th e c o m p la i n a n t ?
W o u l d y o u s a y b e a b le t o s a y - w o u l d y o u s a y t h a t w a s t h e
w r o n g u s e o f th e te r m s ?
10

Would you say it was not wrong use if you

lo o k a t w h a t i s n o r m a ll y s a i d , b u t t e c h n ic a l ly i t w a s w r o n g ? W h a t w o u l d
you say about that?
A D V M A N YAT H I: It is a d i ffic u l t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: In - in t h e c o n te x t o f …
CHAIRPERSON:

I ju s t w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d , b e c a u s e fr o m th e N PA’s

s id e w h e n th e y w i th d r e w t h e c h a r g e s o n e o f t h e c r it ic is m s th e y r e li e d
u p o n t o j u s ti f y t h e d e c i s i o n t o w it h d r a w t h e c h a r g e s w a s

th a t

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s th e c o m p l a i n a n t i n th e m a t t e r a n d y e t h e w a s
p l a y in g a c e r t a in r o le .
20

S u c h a s th e y s a i d h e w a s - h e w a s w r i ti n g le t t e r s o r g i v i n g
in s t r u c t i o n s a s t o w h o c o u l d o r c o u l d n o t v is it o r s e e C o lo n e l M a d h o e
w h e n h e w a s i n p o li c e c u s t o d y a n d I t h i n k t h e y s a i d s o m e t h i n g e ls e , b u t
t h e - t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h e y w e r e c r e a t i n g w a s th e r e i s s o m e t h in g s tr a n g e
h a p p e n in g h e r e . T h i s m a n is th e c o m p l a in a n t in t h is c a s e …
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y e t lo o k a t w h a t h e i s d o i n g . H e - h e is i n c h a r g e
of what is happening.

H e s a y s h e - h e w i ll s a y w h o m a y s e e t h e

a c c u s e d a n d w h o m a y n o t s e e t h e a c c u s e d . H e s h o u l d n o t b e p l a y in g
t h a t r o l e . T h a t is my i m p r e s s i o n o f w h a t t h e y a r e s a y i n g a n d w h e n h e
respond - when he responded.
He was saying no, but I am not the com plainant.
tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e m a t te r fr o m t h e ir p e r s p e c tiv e .

So I am
Is t h e r e

s o m e b o d y w h o w a s b e i n g d is in g e n u o u s in - in th e u s e o f t h e w o r d - o f
t h e t e r m o r i n a d o p ti n g w h a t e v e r p o s i t io n w a s b e in g a d o p t e d b y t h e tw o
10

s id e s o r is t h i s a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e b o t h c o u ld g e n u i n e ly b e t h i n k in g t h e y
w e r e r ig h t i n w h a t - i n t h e p o s i t io n t h e y w e r e t a k i n g a n d - a n d n o t h i n g
m o r e s h o u l d t u r n o n it , b u t t h e p r o s e c u ti o n - th e N PA u s e d t h a t t e r m a s
o n e o f r e a s o n s to s a y t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g f i s h y h e r e .
F o r th a t r e a s o n w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o p r o c e e d .

We are

w i t h d r a w in g th e c h a r g e s . F o r t h a t r e a s o n a n d m a y b e o t h e r r e a s o n s w e
- we are withdrawing the charges.
A D V M A N YAT H I: I - I n o w u n d e r s t a n d . B a s e d o n t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a s g iv e n m e . I w a s n o t a w a r e w h y t h e c h a r g e s w e r e
w i t h d r a w n , b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e w i th d r a w n a ft e r I h a d le f t th e N PA a n d
20

b e c a u s e i t w a s i n t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n . I - I g o t to k n o w, b e c a u s e c e r t a i n
p r o s e c u t o r s a ls o c a ll e d m e o u t o f in t e r e s t t o s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: A r e y o u a w a r e t h a t th e c a s e t h a t y o u w e r e a ll o c a t e d
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o s e c u ti n g .

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A D V M A N YAT H I: H a s b e e n w i t h d r a w n o n t h e in s t r u c t i o n s o f th e D P P Advocate Noko.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: To - t o a n s w e r t h e q u e s t io n . A s a p r o s e c u t o r I w o u l d
n o t h a v e g iv e n th a t r e a s o n i f I to o k t h a t d e c is i o n t o w i t h d r a w t o s a y I
a m w i th d r a w i n g b e c a u s e G e n e r a l B o o y s e n is t h e c o m p l a i n a n t . N o . I - I
t h i n k it d o e s n o t m a k e l e g a l s e n s e . P e r h a p s o n e s h o u l d a l s o a n s w e r i n
- i n a n in s i g h t f u l w a y. L e t u s - l e t u s t a l k a b o u t th e R 6 0 m il li o n fr a u d .
W h e r e t h e s t a t e a s i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f t h e p o lic e w a s
10

a l le g e d ly d e fr a u d e d .

T h a t w h o i s t h e c o m p l a in a n t .

Is it - is it the

p e r s o n w h o o p e n e d t h e d o c k e t w h o is r e p r e s e n t in g t h e p o li c e , b e c a u s e
s o m e o n e h a s - h a s to o p e n t h e d o c k e t .

S o I - l e t u s s a y it w a s

C a p t a i n S o a n d s o w h o o p e n e d th e d o c k e t , b e c a u s e a c r i m e h a d b e e n
opened.
N o it is n o t t h a t C a p t a i n .

I t i s t h e p o li c e - th e e n t ir e

d e p a r t m e n t. S o fr o m t h a t p e r s p e c t iv e I - I w o u l d s a y t h e r e is - t h e r e i s
s u b s t a n c e in p e r s p e c tiv e th a t B o o y s e n w a s n o t th e c o m p la i n a n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O k a y.

Thank you.

I - I am just thinking of

o th e r c a s e s w h e r e a p o l ic e o ff ic e r w i t n e s s e s a c r i m e b e i n g c o m m i t t e d .
20

W h e t h e r - u n l e s s th e r e is s o m e b o d y e ls e w h o is a c o m p l a i n a n t .

The

p o li c e c a n n o t a r r e s t a n d t h e N PA c a n n o t c h a r g e u n l e s s t h e r e i s
s o m e b o d y w h o is c a ll e d a c o m p l a in a n t.
W h a t - w h a t c a n y o u t e ll m e o n t h a t?

I n o th e r w o r d s t h i s

t h i n g o f a c o m p l a i n a n t m u s t t h e r e a l w a y s b e a c o m p la i n a n t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

No.

A g a in i n te r e s t i n g l y p r a c t ic a l c a s e s t h a t I h a v e

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d e a lt w i t h a r e i n - i n my c a r e e r a s a p r o s e c u t o r w a y b a c k i n - i n D is tr i c t
C o u r t w h e n I s ta r t e d .

T h e p o li c e w o u ld - w o u ld g o t o th e C i ty - t h e

C B D a n d b e in p l a i n c l o t h e s a n d d o w h a t w a s c a ll e d c r i m e p r e v e n ti o n
a g a in s t p i c k p o c k e t i n g .
I p r o s e c u t e d s e v e r a l c a s e s w h e r e fo r i n s t a n c e a p i c k p o c k e t
w o u ld p i c k p o c k e t a c iv i li a n a n d t h e c i v il ia n w a s u n a w a r e t h a t h e is
b e i n g p i c k p o c k e te d . T h a t w a s th e w h o le p o i n t o f p ic k p o c k e t in g . T h a t t h a t y o u t a k e th e w a ll e t o r w h a t e v e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W i th o u t t h e p e r s o n b e i n g a w a r e ?
10

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s a n d th e p o li c e m a n w o u ld c h a s e th e p i c k p o c k e t

a n d b y th e ti m e h e c a t c h e s t h e - t h e v ic t i m - s o to s p e a k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s - is n o w h e r e t o b e s e e n ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Is g o n e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: A n d w e w o u l d p r o s e c u t e p ic k p o c k e t s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: Fo r r o b b e r y o f a p e r s o n u n k n o w n t o th e s t a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: A n d w e w o u l d s e c u r e a c o n v ic t i o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: O n t h e b a s is o f t h e e v id e n c e o f t h e p o lic e m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - a n d y o u w o u l d n o t s a y th e p o l ic e m a n w h o

a r r e s t e d t h a t - t h e p i c k p o c k e t is t h e c o m p l a i n a n t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V M A N YAT H I: H e - h e is n o t t h e c o m p l a i n a n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . H e is ju s t a w i t n e s s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: H e i s j u s t a w it n e s s a n d b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To a c r i m e .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

H e is a w i tn e s s a n d t h e o n ly o n e w h o - w h o

w i t n e s s e s th e c r i m e w h o i s a v a il a b l e . H e w o u ld t h e n o p e n t h e d o c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

10

A D V M A N YAT H I:

On the part where it says complainant.

H is n a m e

w o u ld b e t h e r e .

S e r g e a n t S o a n d s o , b u t h e is n o t t h e c o m p l a i n a n t

r e a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

S o - s o in t e r m s o f p a p e r w o r k h e - h e o r s h e

might appear as the complainant?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s . O n th e fa c e o f e a c h d o c k e t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h e r e is a p a r t w h i c h s a y s c o m p l a i n a n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h e n y o u w o u ld p u t - t h e p o lic e m a n ’s n a m e

could appear then …
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

There.

W o u l d i t e v e r h a p p e n t h a t n o n a m e is p u t

t h e r e , b u t th e m a t t e r is p r o s e c u te d ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Th e r e w o u l d a l w a y s b e a n a m e . A g o o d e x a m p l e is

c a s e s o f m u r d e r o r h o m ic id e . I n - in a c a s e w h e r e s o m e o n e h a s d ie d
t h e c o m p la i n a n t is a l w a y s t h e - a p o li c e m a n w h o o p e n s t h e d o c k e t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V M A N YAT H I: B e c a u s e t h e d e c e a s e d i s - is d e a d .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O k a y. S o - s o th is is s u e a b o u t w h e th e r
General Booysen was the complainant or not maybe it is not a simple
is s u e .
A D V M A N YAT H I: N o . It is n o t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M A N YAT H I: B u t b a s e d o n w h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a s to ld m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M A N YAT H I: As b e i n g o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s c i te d fo r t h e w i th d r a w a l .
For me …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M A N YAT H I: It d o e s n o t m a k e l e g a l s e n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To - t o r e ly o n t h a t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

A d v o c a te M a n y a th i ,

you

were

s t il l

e x p l a i n in g to t h e C h a ir h o w th e c o r r u p ti o n o c c u r r e d .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

T h e a ll e g a t io n w a s t h a t M a d h o e a p p r o a c h e d

B o o y s e n a n d o ff e r e d h i m R 1 . 5 m i lli o n t o p r e d a t e a r e p o r t w h ic h h a d
b e e n s u b m i t t e d i n t h e fr a u d m a t te r.
20

T h o s e w e r e t h e b r ie f f a c ts , b u t I

c a n e l a b o r a t e fu r t h e r, b e c a u s e i t - i t w a s - i t w a s s o m e t h i n g th a t
h a p p e n e d o v e r a p e r io d o f t i m e .
Fr o m t h e - f r o m t h e m o m e n t t h e a p p r o a c h w a s a l le g e d ly m a d e
b y M a d h o e c u l m i n a t i n g in t h e e x c h a n g e o f t h e c a s h a n d th e r e p o r t .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s a y fr a u d m a t te r y o u r e la y - y o u r e f e r r in g

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t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t m a tt e r ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : I t h in k i t is a p p r o p r i a t e i f w e c a n ju s t g o
t h r o u g h i t s te p b y s t e p . Yo u s a y M a d h o e a p p r o a c h e d …
A D V M A N YAT H I: B o o y s e n .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : B o o y s e n a n d o ffe r e d h i m 1 .4 m i ll io n .
A D V M A N YAT H I: 1 . 5 .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : 1 . 5 m ill i o n …
10

A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : To p r e d a te a r e p o r t .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

W h i c h - w h ic h h a d b e e n s u b m i tt e d i n t h e

p r o c u r e m e n t fr a u d c a s e .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : W h a t i s t h e s ig n i f ic a n c e o f t h is r e p o r t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e t h a t . T h e p r o c u r e m e n t c a s e - th e fr a u d
c a s e th a t y o u r e f e r to . T h e s u s p e c t s o r a c c u s e d w e r e w h o ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: T h e s a m e t w o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr P a n d a y a n d C o l o n e l M a d h o e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A lr ig h t .

T h e n t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h a t w a s t h e

s ig n if ic a n c e o f th e r e p o r t t h a t it w a s s a i d h e w a n te d p r e d a te d .
A D V M A N YAT H I: B a s e d o n t h e b r i e fi n g a - it w a s c a ll e d s p e c i f ic a l ly a
p r e l i mi n a r y r e p o r t . In t h e s e n s e t h a t i t w a s n o t fi n a l . T h e in v e s t i g a t io n
was ongoing.

A p r e l i m i n a r y r e p o r t w a s s u b m i tt e d t o B o o y s e n a s t h e

P r o v i n c ia l H e a d o f th e H a w k s . T h a t - t h a t p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t I w a s to l d

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was not signed and - must I just …
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : Ye s . J u s t c o n ti n u e .
A D V M A N YAT H I: U n p a c k e v e r y t h i n g ?
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : U n p a c k i t . Ye s .
A D V M A N YAT H I: A l r i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t h a v i n g s a id s o I t h i n k h e w a s s a y i n g w h a t w a s
t h e s i g n i fic a n c e o f t h e r e p o r t .
A D V M A N YAT H I: O h y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f y o u a r e a b le t o j u s t z o o m i n o n t h a t .
10

A D V M A N YAT H I: O k a y. F o r t h e r e p o r t t o h a v e b e e n c o m p il e d t h e r e there are occurrences that happened.

Th e s e q u e n c e is c r i t ic a l .

I n v e s ti g a t i o n - a s p a r t o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h e p o l ic e i n c o n ju n c t io n w i t h
t h e p r o s e c u t o r s w o u l d a p p l y fo r w h a t i s c a ll e d a S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a .
S e c t io n 2 0 5 i n t e r m s o f th e C r i m i n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t . M u s t e l a b o r a te o n
what it provides?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . N o t r e a ll y.
A D V M A N YAT H I: N o t n e c e s s a r y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b e c a u s e - j a . T h e r e h a s b e e n e v id e n c e - j a .
A D V M A N YAT H I:
20

S o y o u - y o u t h e n g e t a p r o s e c u to r to a p p l y f o r t h e

S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a a n d a - a J u d i c i a l O ffi c e r a u th o r is e s i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I n t h is c a s e t h e S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s a r e s e r v e d

o n f in a n c i a l i n s ti t u ti o n s . I w o u ld p r e s u m e b a n k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: S o t h a t t h e b a n k s w o u l d p r o v id e b a n k r e c o r d s o f th e

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c o m p a n i e s th a t a ll e g e d ly w e r e p a i d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: Fr o m th e p r o c u r e m e n t fr a u d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: A n d i t w a s a ll e g e d t h a t t h o s e c o m p a n ie s b e l o n g e d to
P a n d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N YAT H I: S o s e q u e n c e i s S e c t i o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s s e r v e d o n th e
b a n k o r b a n k s d e p e n d i n g h o w m a n y a c c o u n ts w h e r e t h e y w e r e h e l d .
10

B a n k s t h e n p r o v i d e b a n k s t a te m e n ts .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : H u h - u h .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Th e p o li c e t h e n l o o k a t th o s e b a n k s t a t e m e n ts .

R e m e m b e r t h e m o d u s o p e r a n d i t h a t th e c h a r g e s f o r t h e a c c o m m o d a t io n
w e r e in f la t e d a n d o b v io u s ly t h e p o l ic e w o u l d n o t p a y t h o s e c o m p a n ie s
c a s h . T h e r e w o u l d b e E F Ts o r w h a t e v e r. S o t h e r e - t h e r e w o u ld b e a
p a p e r tr a il .
O n c e y o u a c c e s s t h e b a n k r e c o r d s o f th o s e c o m p a n ie s t h a t
w e r e p a i d y o u t h e n s e e h o w m u c h w a s p a i d o n w h a t d a y f o r w h ic h
a c c o m m o d a ti o n t o ta ll in g h o w m u c h a n d t h e n o n c e y o u a c c e s s t h o s e
20

b a n k r e c o r d s y o u t h e n c o m p il e a p r e l i m i n a r y r e p o r t .

S a y in g a t t h is

s t a g e p r i m a f a c ie t h e r e is e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t M a d h o e a n d P a n d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Now …
A D V M A N YAT H I:

S o c o m i n g b a c k t o th e - t h e q u e s ti o n .

The

s ig n if ic a n c e o f t h a t r e p o r t . S o t h e r e p o r t a s I w a s t o l d w a s n o t d a t e d .
I t w a s a p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t .

I w a s i n fo r m e d t h a t w h a t w a s g o i n g to

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h a p p e n a f t e r t h a t t h e p o lic e w o u l d e n g a g e a n e x te r n a l s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r.
I t w a s u s u a ll y a c c o u n t a n ts a n d a u d i to r s fir m s to c o n d u c t a fo r e n s ic
a u d it r e p o r t. T h a t w o u l d b e th e fi n a l o n e .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : O k a y.
A D V M A N YAT H I: Te ll m e i f I h a v e n o t a n s w e r e d y o u r q u e s ti o n .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N :

No.

No you have.

What is the

s ig n if ic a n c e - I j u s t - I d i d n o t c o m e o u t c l e a r. W h a t is t h e s i g n i f ic a n c e
o f p r e d a t in g th e - t h e r e p o r t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:
10

The report.

Is t h e s ig n i fi c a n c e is th is .

Remember

t h e s e q u e n c e . S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s , b a n k s t a te m e n ts , r e p o r t .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : H u h - u h .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

A l s o i t is - i t is i m p o r t a n t t o m e n t io n t h a t a t s o m e

p o i n t P a n d a y b r o u g h t a c h a ll e n g e i n t h e H ig h C o u r t t o h a v e t h e v a li d it y
o f th e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s s e t a s i d e . S o h e w a s c h a l l e n g i n g t h e ir
v a l i d i ty.

Th a t w a s - t h a t is a s e p a r a t e c iv il m a t t e r.

N o w if M a d h o e

a p p r o a c h e s B o o y s e n a n d s a y s p r e d a t e t h is p r e - p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t
w h ic h r e f e r s t o b a n k s t a t e m e n t s .
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : H u h - u h .
A D V M A N YAT H I: O n c e y o u p r e d a t e t h a t r e p o r t t o p r i o r t o t h e d a t e t h a t
20

t h e S e c ti o n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s w e r e o b ta i n e d .

I t - i t lo g i c a ll y m e a n s t h e

r e p o r t w a s a lr e a d y c o m p l e t e d b e f o r e t h e S e c t io n 2 0 5 s u b p o e n a s w e r e
o b t a i n e d i n te r ms o f w h ic h t h e b a n k s t a t e m e n ts w h ic h a r e r e f e r r e d t o i n
t h e r e p o r t w e r e o b ta i n e d .
S o i t - it w o u ld b o ls t e r t h e n o t io n t h a t t h e S e c t i o n 2 0 5
s u b p o e n a s w e r e o b t a i n e d i ll e g a ll y w h ic h w o u l d f o l l o w a l s o t h a t t h e b a n k

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s t a te m e n ts w e r e o b ta i n e d i ll e g a ll y.
A D V W I L L I A M N IC H O L S O N : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: We have to take a - a very short break. Let us make
it fi v e m i n u te s . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
ADV NICHOLSON:

A d v o c a te M a n y a th i i f w e g o t o R R 3 , p a g e 4 ,

p a r a g r a p h 1 4 y o u m e n ti o n e d th a t P a n d a y ’s fi n g e r p r i n ts w e r e f o u n d o n
10

the report.
A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:
A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:
A D V M A N YAT H I :

One print.
One print?
Fi n g e r p r in t y e s .
Fr o m w h o m w a s t h is r e p o r t r e c e i v e d ?
W h a t h a p p e n e d is r e m e m b e r th a t B o o y s e n a lr e a d y

h a d a c o p y o f t h e r e p o r t , t h e p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t s o w h e n M a d h o e
a p p r o a c h e d h i m t o p r e - d a te i t B o o y s e n s a i d h e d o e s n ’ t h a v e a c o p y,
w h e t h e r h e w a s m i s l e a d i n g M a d h o e p l a y in g a l o n g , I d o n ’ t k n o w, o r
w h e t h e r h e h a d g e n u i n e ly m i s p l a c e d i t I d o n ’ t k n o w.
20

In any way

M a d h o e t h e n s a i d I w i ll p r o v i d e y o u w i t h a c o p y o f t h e r e p o r t .

Just to

d i g r e s s a b i t w h e n w e w e r e b u s y w i th t h e b a il a p p li c a t io n in r e s p e c t o f
b o t h M a d h o e a n d P a n d a y b e c a u s e w e o p p o s e d it a s th e S t a te , I n e a r ly
said I opposed it (laughing).

I t w a s c o m m o n c a u s e th a t M a d h o e h a d a

c o p y o f t h e p r e l i m i n a r y r e p o r t o n h is o w n v e r s io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V M A N YAT H I:

S o M a d h o e s a i d I w i ll g i v e y o u a c o p y.

CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t t o r e c a ll a g a i n t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r e p o r t

p r e p a r e d b y t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s , in t h e fr a u d m a t t e r.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a i n t h e fr a u d m a t t e r a n d i t b e i n g a r e p o r t t o w h o m ?

A D V M A N YAT H I :

As I understood to – no I don’t know whether to

B o o y s e n a s t h e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d o f t h e H a w k s i n K w a - Z u l u N a t a l o r t o
t h e N a t i o n a l H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t , I t h i n k i t w a s G e n e r a l D r a m a t a t th e
ti m e I ’ m n o t s u r e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s i t w a s o n e o f t h e m ?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

I t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r e p o r t t o e i th e r G e n e r a l

B o o y s e n o r t h e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f th e H a w k s .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n ?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s b u t b o th w o u l d h a v e a c o p y o f i t.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

A D V M A N YAT H I:

W h e th e r it w a s a d d r e s s e d t o B o o y s e n o r D r a m a t t h e

o n e w o u ld g i v e t h e o th e r – i t w i ll b e g i v e n t o b o th .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o is y o u r – w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t

Madhoe was not supposed to have a copy of this report?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I d o n ’ t k n o w.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w b u t it w a s c o m m o n c a u s e d u r i n g t h e

b a il a p p li c a t io n th a t h e h a d a c o p y ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s i t w a s c o m m o n c a u s e b a s e d o n t h e f a c t t h a t i t

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
w a s c o m m o n c a u s e , a g a in t h i s i s j u s t m y r e a s o n in g , n o t b a s e d o n a n y
f a c ts t h a t w e r e b e fo r e m e i n t h e d o c k e t.

R e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n t h e

p r o c u r e m e n t f r a u d e m a n a t e d fr o m th e a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d I s a id
M a d h o e w a s i n c h a r g e o f p r o c u r e m e n t . I t c o u l d b e t h a t a s th e H e a d o f
P r o c u r e m e n t i n w h o s e s e c ti o n t h i s fr a u d o c c u r r e d w a s g iv e n a c o p y o f
t h is r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:
A D V M A N YAT H I:

J a o k a y.
J a s o h e t h e n s a id t o B o o y s e n , w e ll I ’v e g o t a c o p y

I’ ll g iv e y o u , s o h e g a v e h i m a n d B o o y s e n d id n o t s i g n – r a t h e r d id n o t
10

p r e - d a t e t h a t o n e t h a t M a d h o e g a v e to h i m b e c a u s e i t w a s t a k e n f o r
in v e s t i g a t io n , th a t is w h e r e P a n d a y ’s fi n g e r p r in t w a s f o u n d i t w a s f o u n d
on that report.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

A D V M A N YAT H I:

A n d i t w a s th e n p r e s e r v e d a s e v id e n c e .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s b e c a u s e f in g e r p r i n t e l i m i n a t io n h a d b e e n d o n e

on it so it was now evidence.
CHAIRPERSON:
A D V M A N YAT H I:
20

Ye s .
S o w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d , I ’ m ju s t c o m p l e t i n g th e

p ic t u r e , n o w th a t M a d h o e h a s g i v e n h i m a r e p o r t M a d h o e is u n a w a r e o f
t h e d e v e l o p m e n ts n o w t h a t P a n d a y ’s f in g e r p r i n t h a s b e e n f o u n d .
S u b s e q u e n t ly t h e n B o o y s e n g a v e M a d h o e a p r e - d a t e d r e p o r t .

I don’t

k n o w w h e r e t h a t r e p o r t c a m e fr o m , B o o y s e n c a n a n s w e r e i th e r B o o y s e n
m a d e a c o p y o f t h e r e p o r t t h a t M a d h o e g a v e h i m b e f o r e it w a s
s u b m i tt e d f o r fi n g e r p r i n t o r a f t e r w a r d s o r B o o y s e n d r a w h is o w n r e p o r t

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
t h a t h e in i ti a l ly s a i d h e d o e s n ’ t h a v e a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

S o t h e p r e - d a te d o n e w a s th e n h a n d e d to M a d h o e .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y I d i d n ’ t h e a r t h a t b e f o r e s o I t h i n k I’ m h e a r i n g

t h a t fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay so there was a pre-dated report that General

B o o y s e n g a v e to M a d h o e a s y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e p o s i ti o n ?

10

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

A D V M A N YAT H I:

T h e e x c h a n g e o c c u r r e d o n t h e d a y th a t M a d h o e w a s

a r r e s t e d . S o w h a t h a p p e n e d is … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

A D V M A N YAT H I:

J a a s I s a i d , i t w a s o v e r d i ff e r e n t d a y s c u l mi n a ti n g i n

t h e d a y t h a t t h e s ti n g o p e r a t io n w a s h e l d , s o M a d h o e g a v e B o o y s e n
1 .3 6 2 m il li o n y e t h e h a d o ff e r e d 1 . 5 b u t g a v e h i m 1 .3 6 2 m il li o n a n d t h e n
in e x c h a n g e B o o y s e n g a v e h i m t h e p r e - d a t e d r e p o r t.
CHAIRPERSON:
Booysen
20

g iv i n g

O k a y m a y b e I w a s t o l d a b o u t h i m g iv i n g – G e n e r a l
C o lo n e l

Madhoe

a

pre-dated

report

maybe

I’v e

f o r g o t t e n , I’v e b e e n h e a r i n g to o m u c h e v i d e n c e s o ja .
ADV NICHOLSON:

D o y o u k n o w, d e a l in g w i t h t h e r e p o r t, w i t h

P a n d a y ’s p r in t o n i t , w h e r e is th a t r e p o r t n o w ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

A s I s a id t h e r e p o r t o n w h ic h P a n d a y ’s p r i n t w a s

f o u n d , a ft e r th e p r i n t w a s f o u n d i t w a s p r e s e r v e d a s e v id e n c e , s o i t w a s
– n o i t w a s n o t i n th e d o c k e t , I n o w r e c a l l.

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Pr o c e d u r a ll y w h e n a

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
fi n g e r p r i n t e x p e r t d o e s a n e l i mi n a ti o n t h e y k e e p t h e Ex h ib i ts s o it w o u l d
h a v e b e e n p r e s e r v e d i n t h e s a f e o r s tr o n g r o o m o f t h e lo c a l c r i m i n a l
r e c o r d s c e n tr e w h e r e t h e f i n g e r p r i n t e x p e r t i s b a s e d b u t th e fi n g e r p r in t
e x p e r t w o u l d d e p o s e t o a n a ff id a v i t fo r p u r p o s e s o f fi li n g t h e d o c k e t
s e t ti n g o u t e v e r y th in g .
A D V N IC H O L S O N :

Okay if we go to RR3 page 4 paragraph 15, you

m e n ti o n t h a t a u th o r is a ti o n w a s r e c e iv e d i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 2 5 2 A .
A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:
10

A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:

Ye s .
W h ic h A c t a r e y o u r e f e r r in g to ?
C r i m i n a l Pr o c e d u r e A c t .
W h a t is t h e s i g n i fic a n c e o f S e c t i o n 2 5 2 A ?

A D V M A N YAT H I :

I n e s s e n c e t h e S e c t io n s a y s b e f o r e a tr a p i s

c o n d u c t e d t h e p o l ic e m u s t o b t a in a u t h o r i s a ti o n fr o m th e D ir e c t o r a t e o f
P u b l ic

P r o s e c u ti o n s

to

conduct

th a t

tr a p ,

obviously

there

are

e x c e p ti o n s l ik e a n y o t h e r p r o v i s i o n .
ADV NICHOLSON:

O k a y s o y o u m e n t io n t h a t a s ti n g o p e r a ti o n to o k

p l a c e o n t h e 8 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 .

20

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

I g u e s s t h e s i g n i fi c a n c e is s i m p l y t h a t i t ’s a m e a s u r e

o b t a i n in g t h e a u t h o r i s a t io n b e fo r e h a n d , i t’s a m e a s u r e t o e n s u r e o r to
d is t in g u i s h , a t l e a s t a t a g e n e r a l le v e l b e tw e e n a l e g i ti m a t e tr a p a n d
s o m e t h i n g e ls e th a t ’s n o t r e a l ly a l e g i t i m a t e t r a p , i n o th e r w o r d s i f y o u
fi n d i f G e n e r a l B o o y s e n if , w h il e G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s w i t h C o l o n e l
M a d h o e , a n d t h e y – a n d C o lo n e l M a d h o e w a s h a n d in g o v e r th e c a s h if
t h e r e w a s n ’ t t h is k i n d o f p r o v is i o n , i f la t e r o n t h e p o li c e c h a r g e d b o t h

Page 193 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
Madhoe and General Booysen and General Booysen says no it was a
tr a p i t w i ll b e d i ffi c u l t t o k n o w i s i t g e n u i n e , is it t r u e o r w a s h e a ls o
e n g a g i n g i n s o m e il l e g a l a c ti v i ty b u t n o w i n o r d e r t o g e t o u t o f t h a t h e
s a y s , n o a s a p o li c e o ffi c e r i t w a s a t r a p .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u h a v e g o n e to t h e N PA a n d s a i d , I ’ m a s k i n g f o r

a u t h o r i s a t io n t o c o n d u c t a tr a p , i f y o u a r e c a u g h t i n th a t s it u a ti o n b y
t h e p o l ic e y o u c a n s a y, g o t o t h e N PA y o u ’ ll fi n d t h a t th is tr a p h a s b e e n
a u t h o r i s e d , I a s k e d fo r i t , th e n i n t h a t w a y y o u a v o i d a s it u a ti o n w h e r e
10

t h e p o l ic e c a n g e t in v o lv e d i n il le g a l th in g s a n d c la i m th a t t h e y w e r e
c o n d u c t in g a t r a p .
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

ADV NICHOLSON:

N o w w a s t h e r e a S e c ti o n 2 5 2 A a u t h o r is a ti o n f o r a

s t in g o p e r a ti o n t h a t t o o k p l a c e o n t h e 8 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

A c c o r d i n g to t h e e v i d e n c e i n t h e d o c k e t t h e r e w a s

a u t h o r i s a t io n .
ADV NICHOLSON:

O k a y, n o w y o u h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t t h e s t i n g

o p e r a ti o n c a n y o u j u s t te ll u s , w h e r e d i d t h e s ti n g o p e r a t io n ta k e p l a c e ?
20

A D V M A N YAT H I:

I f I r e c a ll – y e s I r e m e m b e r n o w i t – b o t h M a d h o e

a n d B o o y s e n w e r e b a s e d i n t h e o ffic e o f t h e Pr o v i n c i a l H e a d Q u a r t e r s
o f th e p o l ic e in D u r b a n . T h e o p e r a ti o n o c c u r r e d in th e b a s e m e n t i n t h e
p a r k i n g l o t o f th a t b u il d i n g .
ADV NICHOLSON:

O k a y w a s i t d u r in g t h is s ti n g o p e r a ti o n th a t t h e

R 1 . 3 m il li o n w a s e x c h a n g e d , t h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r ?

Page 194 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:

Ye s .
C a n y o u ju s t – d o y o u k n o w w h e r e t h e m o n e y w a s

found after the exchange?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I t w a s fo u n d in M a d h o e ’s c a r – s o r r y it w a s fo u n d i n

B o o y s e n ’s c a r.
ADV NICHOLSON:

O k a y a n d t h e p r e - d a t e d r e p o r t , w a s th e p r e - d a t e d

report ever exchanged?
A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s i t w a s f o u n d i n M a d h o e ’s c a r.
O k a y.
I’ m s o r r y w h a t w a s f o u n d i n C o l o n e l M a d h o e ’s c a r

w h a t w a s f o u n d i n G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ’s c a r ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

In i ti a l ly I g o t it t h e o t h e r w a y a r o u n d , th e m o n e y,

R 1 . 3 6 2 m i ll io n w a s f o u n d in B o o y s e n ’s c a r a n d t h e r e p o r t w a s f o u n d in
M a d h o e ’s c a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh okay at the time of the arrest?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay

so

Colonel

Madhoe

had succeeded

in

tr a n s fe r r i n g t h e c a s h fr o m h is c a r to G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ’s c a r ?

20

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d th e p o s i ti o n .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s i f I r e m e m b e r t h e s p e c i f ic s , t h e y a r r a n g e d t o

m e e t a t th e b a s e m e n t i n t h e p a r k i n g a n d t h e n B o o y s e n s a i d , c o m e t o
m y c a r. S o M a d h o e e n t e r e d – g a v e h i m t h e m o n e y a n d B o o y s e n g a v e
M a d h o e t h e r e p o r t a n d t h e n M a d h o e w a lk e d t o h is c a r.

Once he

e n t e r e d th e p o l ic e o ffic e r s w h o w e r e a t s tr a t e g ic s p o ts t h e n a r r e s te d

Page 195 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
h i m o n th e s p o t .
ADV NICHOLSON:

O k a y, d o y o u k n o w i f t h e s t in g o p e r a ti o n w a s

recorded in any way?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly t h e r e w a s a n a u d i o

recording.
ADV NICHOLSON:

N o w w e k n o w t h a t R 1 .3 6 2 m il li o n w a s g iv e n t o

General Booysen. What was the benefit to Madhoe who gave General
B o o y s e n t h is m o n e y, y o u h a v e m e n t io n e d i t , i f y o u c a n ju s t c r y s t a l li s e
it ?
10

A D V M A N YAT H I:

B e n e fi t in w h a t s e n s e ?

A D V N I C H O L S O N : W h a t d id h e g e t t h is m o n e y … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a t h e q u e s ti o n w o u l d b e , w h y d i d C o l o n e l M a d h o e

g iv e G e n e r a l B o o y s e n s u c h a l o t o f m o n e y.
A D V M A N YAT H I :

S o th a t a s i n i t ia ll y a s k e d , s o t h a t B o o y s e n w o u l d

p r e - d a t e t h e p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV NICHOLSON:

N o w i f w e g o to p a r a g r a p h 1 7 o f R R … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

CHAIRPERSON:

S o in o th e r w o r d s h e w a s b u y in g h i m s o t o s p e a k ,

b u y i n g h i m to d o t h is fo r h i m ?
20

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a t’s t h e n o r m a l l a n g u a g e .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a i t w a s a n i n d u c e m e n t j a o k a y.

ADV NICHOLSON:

If we go to page 4 of RR3 at paragraph 17, can

y o u j u s t r e a d th a t p a r a g r a p h .

Page 196 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:
A D V M A N YAT H I:

17?
Ye s .
“ M a d h o e a d m i t t e d , a f te r h i s a r r e s t th a t t h e c a s h t h a t

w a s h a n d e d o v e r t o B o o y s e n h a d b e e n p r o v id e d b y P a n d a y ” .
ADV NICHOLSON:
A D V M A N YAT H I :

How do you know this?
B e c a u s e i t w a s i n t h e d o c k e t a s i n t h e e v id e n c e o f

t h e m e m b e r s o f th e s t in g o p e r a ti o n w h o – I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r.

10

CHAIRPERSON:

W h o m a d e s ta t e m e n ts .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s t h e y m a d e s t a t e m e n ts .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:

So you had – when the docket was before you, you

h a d th e r e p o r t t h a t h a d M r P a n d a y ’s fi n g e r p r i n t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
A n d th e n y o u h a d s t a t e m e n t s b y m e m b e r s o f t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n t e a m w h o s a i d C o l o n e l M a d h o e s a i d t o t h e m a f te r h e h a d
been arrested that Mr Panday had provided the cash that he gave to
General Booysen.

20

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

A D V M A N YAT H I:

A n i n te r e s t in g p o i n t o f l a w b e c a u s e t h e r e h a v e b e e n

d e v e l o p m e n ts a t th a t t i m e a n a d mi s s io n w a s a d m is s i b l e a g a i n s t a n o t h e r
p e r s o n a s i n a c o u r t y e s , t h e la w s c h a n g e d .
A D V N IC H O L S O N :

C h a ir, t h e C h a ir a s k e d m y v e r y n e x t q u e s t i o n , w h a t

w a s th e e v i d e n c e a g a in s t P a n d a y b e c a u s e in p a g e 5 p a r a g r a p h 1 8 y o u

Page 197 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
s t a te d th a t y o u a p p li e d fo r a w a r r a n t o f a r r e s t fo r P a n d a y.
A D V M A N YAT H I :

Ye s .

Th e C h a ir h a s s u m m a r is e d t h e tw o m a i n

a s p e c ts th a t I c o n s i d e r e d , o f c o u r s e th e r e w e r e o t h e r c ir c u m s t a n t ia l
a s p e c ts th a t I a p p l i e d m y m i n d t o . W h a t m o t iv a t e d m e o r r a th e r w h a t
in f o r m e d m y d e c i s i o n t o s a y t h e r e ’s a c a s e , a n d I a m g o in g t o a p p ly f o r
a w a r r a n t to h a v e h i m a r r e s te d I w a s m i n d f u l t h a t y o u k n o w i f I w a s
h a v i n g h i m a r r e s t e d I c o u l d p u r s u e i t , s o a fi n g e r p r i n t is f o u n d o n a
r e p o r t w h ic h i s s tr i c t ly s u p p o s e d t o b e w i t h i n th e p o lic e s e r v ic e s , h e i s
n o t a p o l ic e m a n , h e i s a b u s i n e s s m a n , w h a t is h is fi n g e r p r in t d o in g o n
10

a report.
Tw o t h e p e r s o n w h o p r o v i d e s th e m R 1 . 3 6 2 m i ll io n m a k e s a n
a d m i s s i o n t h a t , s o r r y th e p e r s o n t h a t g iv e s B o o y s e n t h e m o n e y m a k e s
a n a d m i s s i o n t h a t P a n d a y p r o v i d e d t h e m o n e y o b v i o u s l y in m y h e a d a s
I

said

you

a ls o

lo o k

at

other

c i r c u m s t a n ti a l

aspects,

without

u n d e r m i n i n g h i m b u t I c o n s i d e r e d t h e p r o b a b il it y th a t a C o l o n e l i n t h e
p o li c e w o u l d h a v e s o m u c h m o n e y.
ADV NICHOLSON:

A n d y o u a l s o m e n ti o n e d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y, t h e p o i n t y o u m a k e is t h a t it w a s u n lik e ly

t h a t a C o l o n e l i n t h e p o lic e w o u l d h a v e s o m u c h m o n e y to g iv e t o
20

s o m e b o d y e ls e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

ADV NICHOLSON:

A n d y o u h a d a ls o m e n t io n e d t h a t P a n d a y w a s a

s u s p e c t i n th e fr a u d m a t te r ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: Ye s .

Page 198 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
ADV NICHOLSON:

Do you know if Panday was ever arrested?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Fo r t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l f ir s t ly d i d y o u g e t t h e w a r r a n t ?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

I g o t i t.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y, w a s i t c a r r i e d o u t ?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

It was executed and they arrested him.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , o k a y.

A D V M A N YAT H I:

A n d I e n r o ll e d h i m i n o t h e r w o r d s I a d d e d h i m t o w h o

w a s a lr e a d y a c c u s e d o n t h e r o l l .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV NICHOLSON:

A t t h e t i m e y o u a r r e s t e d P a n d a y a t th a t p o in t i n

ti m e w h a t w a s y o u r e s ti m a t i o n o n th e p r o s p e c ts o f a s u c c e s s fu l
p r o s e c u t i o n i n t h e c o r r u p t io n m a t t e r, in t h is c o r r u p t io n m a t t e r w e ’ r e
d e a li n g w it h .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

A s I s a i d I u l t i m a te ly i n d ic t e d b o th in t h e h i g h c o u r t ,

s o th e r e w a s a c a s e , v e r y g o o d c a s e , i n m y v i e w a n d e x p e r i e n c e .
A D V N IC H O L S O N :

O k a y y o u h a d a ls o m e n ti o n e d t h a t y o u w e r e

a l lo c a t e d t h i s m a tt e r b y t h e A c t i n g D P P, A d v o c a t e . . . [i n d is t in c t] .
A D V M A N YAT H I:
20

Ye s .

A D V N IC H O L S O N :

D id y o u k e e p h i m a p p r a i s e d o f th e p r o g r e s s in t h e

prosecution?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I did.

ADV NICHOLSON:

D i d h e e v e r e x p r e s s a n y r e s e r v a ti o n s t o y o u

r e g a r d in g th e e v i d e n c e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

No.

Page 199 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V N IC H O L S O N :

At RR3 page 5, paragraph 19 you say that

p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e m a d e to A d v o c a t e L a w r e n c e M g w e b e , t h e N a ti o n a l
H e a d S p e c i a l is e d C o m m e r c ia l C r i m e U n i t , k n o w n a s th e S C U ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

A D V N IC H O L S O N :

P e r h a p s i t is c o n v e n i e n t i f a t t h is p o in t y o u c a n

ju s t e x p l a in t h e s tr u c t u r e s w i t h i n th e N PA .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I w il l d e a l w i th t h e tw o u n i ts t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t h e r e .

Yo u h a d – i t s t il l is t h e c a s e s o I w ill s p e a k i n t h e p a s t te n s e , y o u h a d
t h e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t io n S e r v ic e s w h ic h w a s c a ll e d N P S , u n d e r w h ic h
10

a l l t h e o ff ic e r s o f th e D P P ’s i n a ll p r o v in c e s fe ll a n d in t e r m s o f
h i e r a r c h y u n d e r th e D P P y o u w il l h a v e t h e D e p u ty D i r e c t o r s o f P u b l ic
P r o s e c u t io n s , t h a t is i n t e r m s o f t h e H ig h C o u r t , a n d t h e n o n t h e s i d e
s t il l f a l li n g u n d e r t h e D e p u ty y o u h a v e C h i e f P r o s e c u to r s w h o w e r e i n
charge of clusters.

C lu s te r s a r e m a d e o f d is tr i c t s a n d th e n u n d e r

C h i e f P r o s e c u t o r s y o u h a v e S P P ’s w h o a r e i n c h a r g e o f d i s tr ic t s a n d
t h e n y o u r p r o s e c u ti o n s b e l o w t h a t .
T h a t w a s t h e N P S w h ic h w a s c a l le d th e g e n e r a l s e c ti o n , u n d e r
w h ic h I a n d M s C l a r k e f e l l .

A n d t h e n o n th e s i d e y o u w o u ld h a v e t h e

S p e c ia li s e d C o m m e r c ia l C r i m e s U n i t , t h e S C C U . T h e N a ti o n a l H e a d o f
20

S C C U w a s b a s e d i n P r e t o r ia w a s A d v o c a t e M g w e b e a n d t h e n S C C U ’s
w o u ld h a v e o ff ic e s a n d c o u r t s i n m a j o r c e n tr e s .
F o r in s t a n c e i n K w a Z u l u N a t a l th e e n t ir e P r o v i n c e th e r e ’s o n e
S C C U o ffic e a n d c o u r t t h a t w o u l d b e i n D u r b a n . T h e r e w e r e y o u k n o w
o th e r o ff ic e r s a n d c o u r ts i n m a j o r c i t ie s lik e J o h a n n e s b u r g , Pr e t o r i a ,
C a p e To w n .

Page 200 of 212

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
ADV NICHOLSON:

S o t h e p o i n t i s th e N P S d i d n ’ t f a l l u n d e r t h e S C C U

b u t it w a s a p a r a l le l s tr u c tu r e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

ADV NICHOLSON:
A D V M A N YAT H I :

O k a y.
If I m a y e l a b o r a t e s o m e t h in g i m p o r t a n t , w h e n

A d v o c a t e a l l a l o n g th e r e w e r e j u s t t w o s e p a r a t e s tr u c tu r e s i n t h e s e n s e
t h a t t h e o n e h a n d d i d n o t k n o w w h a t th e o t h e r h a n d w a s d o in g u n ti l
A d v o c a t e M e n d e s M e l o n e b e c a m e t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c
P r o s e c u t io n s a n d h e c h a n g e d , s o w h e n h e c a m e o n b o a r d h e s a id h e
10

d o e s n ’t w a n t a s i t u a t io n w h e r e f o r in s ta n c e I w il l u s e K w a Z u l u N a ta l t h e
D P P i n t h i s c a s e A d v o c a t e M l o d j w a , is i n c h a r g e o f t h e w h o l e p r o v in c e ,
b u t h e d o e s n ’t k n o w w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g a t S C C U w h ic h is s i tu a te d i n
D u r b a n w i th i n h is p r o v i n c e , h e s a i d n o th e r e s h o u l d b e t w o c e n tr e s o f
p o w e r in t e r m s o f S C C U , t h e D P P m u s t b e i n v o lv e d a n d s o is t h e
s p a ti a l d ir e c t o r w h o s i ts i n Pr e t o r i a , i n t h is c a s e A d v o c a t e M g w e b e .
ADV NICHOLSON:

O k a y, in w h ic h s e c t io n d id y o u a n d A d v o c a t e

W e n d y, I t h i n k y o u s a i d C l a r k e , w o r k ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:
A D V N IC H O L S O N :
20

G e n e r a l S e c t io n , N P S .
A n d u n d e r w h ic h s e c t io n d i d b o t h t h e fr a u d a n d

c o r r u p ti o n p r o s e c u ti o n s r e s i d e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Th e fr a u d m a t t e r I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r i t w a s e v e r

in v o lv e d b u t a t th e t i m e i t w a s n o t o n t h e r o l l .

R e m e m b e r I s a id t h e r e

w a s s t ill a l o n g w a y t o g o , t h e r e w a s s ti ll g o i n g t o b e fo r e n s ic a u d i t
r e p o r t e t c e t e r a , s o i t w a s n o o n t h e r o ll , i t w a s s ti ll b e in g i n v e s ti g a te d ,
t h e c o r r u p t i o n m a t te r w a s u n d e r t h e g e n e r a l s e c t i o n b u t th a t ’s o n e

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a s p e c t w h e r e I s a id I n e e d to a d d , i t a c tu a lly c a m e b a c k t o m y
r e c o l l e c ti o n a s I w a s s i t ti n g th e r e , i n i ti a lly th is c o r r u p t io n c a s e w a s
h e l d a t t h e c o m m e r c i a l c r i m e s c o u r t a n d th e n i t w a s m o v e d to t h e
g e n e r a l c o u r t, w h ic h w o u l d b e D u r b a n R e g io n a l C o u r t , b u t i t w a s
a l lo c a t e d t o m e b y M l o d j w a w h o i s in c h a r g e o f t h e g e n e r a l s e c ti o n a n d
a ls o t e c h n ic a l ly i n c h a r g e o f S C C U a n d I w a s i n th e g e n e r a l s e c t io n .
ADV NICHOLSON:

O k a y d i d i t m a k e a n y s e n s e fo r r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o

b e m a d e to t h e h e a d o f S C C U a n d n o t to t h e A c ti n g D P P K Z N ?
A D V M A N YAT H I :
10

It ’s th e p o i n t I m a k e in m y a ffi d a v it , I a m j u s t s a y i n g

I d o n ’ t k n o w w h y r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e m a d e t o M g w e b e , t h a t is a s f a r
a s I c a n s a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on one second, did the corruption, did

c o r r u p ti o n m a t t e r s n o t f a l l u n d e r h is u n i t o r t h e y d i d , fr a u d a n d
c o r r u p ti o n ?

20

A D V M A N YAT H I:

U n d e r t h e S p e c i a l is e d C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e s U n i t?

CHAIRPERSON:

N o , t h e y d i d n ’ t u n d e r g e n e r a l?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Fr a u d y e s , c e r ta i n fr a u d s .

CHAIRPERSON:

C e r t a i n ty p e s o f fr a u d .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

C e r t a i n ty p e s fr a u d .

CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d f a l l u n d e r h is u n i t ?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s c o m p l e x fr a u d .

CHAIRPERSON:

C o m p le x fr a u d , c o m m e r c ia l fr a u d .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

C o m m e r c i a l fr a u d m o r e p r e c i s e ly b e c a u s e w e a ls o i n

t h e g e n e r a l s e c t io n w e d i d a l o t o f fr a u d , v e r y s e r i o u s fr a u d I d i d
m a in ly.

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CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . O k a y s o c o m m e r c i a l fr a u d w o u l d f a l l u n d e r

h is u n i t .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e r e w o u ld b e a lo t o f o t h e r fr a u d c a s e s t h a t d i d

not fall under his unit.
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th o s e w o u ld f a l l u n d e r g e n e r a l s e c ti o n .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s , y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d c o r r u p t io n , w o u l d t h e r e b e s o m e c o r r u p ti o n

cases that fell under his unit?
A D V M A N YAT H I :

I f y o u lo o k a t th e v e r y e s t a b l is h m e n t o f th a t

s p e c i a lis e d c o m m e r c i a l c r i m e s u n i t I d o n ’ t t h i n k th e y w e r e d e a l i n g w i t h
c o r r u p ti o n , I m e a n b y d e f i n i ti o n b u t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l u n l e s s , u n le s s I g u e s s th e y w o u ld n ’ t s e p a r a t e i t

if t h e fr a u d is p a r t o f c o r r u p t io n .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Pr o b a b l y y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

I f t h e – i f i t is c o m m e r c ia l fr a u d b u t t h a t c o m m e r c i a l

fr a u d is p a r t o f c o r r u p ti o n t h e n m a y b e it c o u ld f a ll w i t h i n , t h a t ty p e
c o u l d fa ll w i t h i n h is u n i t .
20

A D V M A N YAT H I:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Ye s , b u t th is p a r ti c u l a r fr a u d w o u l d i t f a l l u n d e r

c o m m e r c ia l fr a u d t h is k in d o f c a s e o r n o t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I :

I d o n ’t k n o w b u t s o m e t h in g i m p o r ta n t C h a ir p e r s o n a s

I h a v e s a i d I o n ly r e c a ll e d th is m o r n i n g a s I w a s s i t t in g t h e r e th a t w h e n
I fi r s t w e n t t o c o u r t fo r th is m a t t e r w e a p p e a r e d a t t h e C o m m e r c ia l

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C r i m e s C o u r t a n d t h e n i t w a s m o v e d t o D u r b a n M a g is tr a t e ’s C o u r t
w h ic h i s i n a s e p a r a t e b u i l d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV NICHOLSON:

N o w t h e r e p r e s e n t a t io n s t h a t w e r e f e r t o a r e a t

p a g e 1 2 o f R R 3 , a t ta c h e d t o y o u r a ff id a v i ts a s B M 1 .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

ADV NICHOLSON:

I f y o u lo o k o n th e s a m e p a g e a t t h e s e c o n d

u n m a r k e d p a r a g r a p h c a n y o u r e a d t h e fir s t l in e .
A D V M A N YAT H I:
10

ADV NICHOLSON:

W h ic h p a r a g r a p h ?
O n t h e s a m e p a g e th e s e c o n d u n m a r k e d p a r a g r a p h

s t a r ti n g f r o m , w e l l th e b o t t o m s t a r ts fr o m w e , t h e s e c o n d w e .
A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:
A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:

T h e o n e t h a t s a y s “ w e a r e i n s tr u c t e d ” ?
T h a t’s c o r r e c t .
R e a d t h e e n tir e o n e ?
Ye s , w e ll r e a d t h e f ir s t l in e .

A D V M A N YAT H I: “
“ W e a r e i n s tr u c t e d t o m a k e th e fo ll o w i n g r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s t o
y o u r o ffi c e s a s o u r c li e n t is o f th e r e a s o n a b l e b e l ie f t h a t y o u r
o ffic e s h a v e c l e a r ly n o t b e e n a p p r a is e d o f th e c i r c u ms t a n c e s
20

w h e r e in o u r c l ie n t is a p o t e n t ia l w i t n e s s i n m a t t e r s o f n a ti o n a l
in t e r e s t in v o lv i n g b o t h p r o v i n c i a l a n d n a t i o n a l l e v e ls o f S A P S
m a n a g e m e n t , in t e l li g e n c e , c o v e r t o p e r a ti o n s , t h e H a w k s a n d
o th e r s . ”
A D V N IC H O L S O N :

O k a y it w a s j u s t th e fir s t l in e I w a s in t e r e s t e d i n ,

w e a r e in s tr u c te d t o m a k e t h e f o l lo w in g r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o y o u r o ffic e s .

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N o w o n w h o s e b e h a lf w e r e t h e s e p r e s e n ta t io n s m a d e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I n t e r e s ti n g ly t h e a t t o r n e y i s p r e s e n t h e r e .

Th e y

w e r e m a d e o n b e h a l f o f a c c u s e d n u m b e r o n e o n ly, M a d h o e .
ADV NICHOLSON:

O k a y, n o w w h a t d o y o u m a k e o f th e li n e t h e r e t h a t

y o u r e a d , t h e f ir s t li n e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:

I n w h a t s e n s e M r N ic h o ls o n , I a m j u s t r e a d i n g t h is

a s a n a t t o r n e y s a y i n g t o M g w e b e I h a v e b e e n i n s tr u c t e d t o m a k e
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o y o u r o ff ic e .
ADV NICHOLSON:
10

A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:

To y o u r o ffi c e s y e s .
Ye s .
M y r e a d i n g is t h a t C o l o n e l M a d h o e a d v is e d h i s

a tt o r n e y t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o A d v o c a te M g w e b e ’s o ffi c e , a n d n o t
t o y o u r o ffi c e .
A D V M A N YAT H I :

I w o u l d n ’ t w a n t to g o th a t f a r b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t k n o w, I

w a s n o t p r iv y t o th e d is c u s s io n s b e t w e e n M a d h o e a n d th e a t t o r n e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I fo ll o w w h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g

a b o u t. O f c o u r s e w h e n t h a t s e n t e n c e s a y s w e a r e in s tr u c te d , w r i t t e n b y
a n a t t o r n e y, i t m e a n s o u r c li e n t h a s a s k e d u s t o d o A , B , C , D s o w e a r e
in s t r u c t e d t o m a k e th e fo ll o w i n g r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o y o u r o ff ic e s .
20

The

r e fe r e n c e t o y o u r o ffi c e s is t h e r e f e r e n c e t o th e o ff ic e s o f t h e N a ti o n a l
H e a d o f th e S p e c ia l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s i n Pr e t o r i a .

In

P r e t o r i a , s o I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I fo ll o w w h a t th e i s s u e is .
ADV NICHOLSON:

C h a ir t h e p o i n t t h a t I w a s tr y i n g to e s t a b li s h w a s

m y r e a d in g o f t h a t li n e i s th a t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n s w e r e g iv e n to m a k e
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s to t h e S C C U ’s o ff ic e s a n d n o t to t h e D P P ’s o ff ic e s

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w h e r e th e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s h o u l d h a v e b e e n m a d e , b u t A d v o c a t e
M a n y a th i h a s s t a t e d t h a t h e d o e s n ’ t s e e i t t h a t w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

Well I don’t know maybe the two of you

w e r e t a lk i n g c r o s s - p u r p o s e s . T h e l e t t e r is a d d r e s s e d t o P r e t o r ia , t o t h e
N a t io n a l H e a d o f t h e S p e c i a l C o m m e r c ia l C r i m e U n i t .

Obviously when

t h e a u t h o r o f t h e le t t e r s a y s w e a r e .. . [ in d is ti n c t ] t o m a k e t h e f o l lo w i n g
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t o y o u r o ff ic e s th a t i s t h e o ffi c e s o f t h e N a ti o n a l H e a d in
Pretoria.

10

A D V M A N YAT H I:

A d v o c a te M g w e b e ?

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

B a s i c a ll y y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a t ’s w h a t y o u a ls o u n d e r s ta n d i t to b e s a y i n g ?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h e r e is n o c o n f u s i o n y o u b a r e b o t h o n t h e

s a m e p a g e b u t I t h o u g h t i t l o o k e d l ik e y o u w e r e n o t o n t h e s a m e p a g e .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

P e r h a p s t h e d i ffe r e n c e C h a i r p e r s o n i s th is , M r

N i c h o l s o n is s a y i n g – is r e a d i n g i n t o t h a t w e i n s tr u c t e d to m a k e
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o y o u , A d v o c a t e M g w e b e a n d n o t t o M a lo d g w a .

I t is

t h e la t t e r a s p e c t t h a t I a m s a y i n g I a m n o t w i ll in g to g o t o th a t e x te n t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t t h a t ’s n o t w h a t t h e le t t e r s a y s is n ’ t i t ?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

O n e c o u l d r e a d th e l e t t e r i n th a t l ig h t .

CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e s e e , m a y b e I a m m is s in g s o m e t h i n g .

We are

in s t r u c t e d t o m a k e t h e f o l lo w in g r e p r e s e n t a t i o n t o y o u r o ffi c e s a s o u r
c li e n t is o f t h e r e a s o n a b le b e li e f th a t y o u r o ffic e s h a v e c l e a r l y n o t b e e n
a p p r is e d o f th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e i n y o u r c li e n t , o u r c l ie n t is a

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
potential

witness

in

matters

of

n a t io n a l

interest

involving

b o th

P r o v i n c ia l a n d N a t io n a l l e v e l s o f S A P m a n a g e m e n t , b l a h - b l a h - b a h .
W h a t t h e y m a y b e s a y i n g is w e – t h e y a r e s a y in g d e f in i te w e a r e
a p p r o a c h i n g y o u a t n a ti o n a l le v e l , t h a t i s n o w s p e c ia li s e d c o m m e r c i a l
c r i m e u n i t , a n d t h e n t h e y s e e m t o b e s a y in g t h e r e a s o n w h y w e a r e
a p p r o a c h i n g y o u is th a t y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n a p p r a is e d o f t h e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e in o u r c l i e n t i s a p o te n ti a l w i t n e s s in s u c h a n d
s u c h a m a t te r i n v o l v i n g t h e Pr o v i n c i a l a n d N a t i o n a l l e v e ls S A P S . I a m
n o t s u r e th a t I s e e w h a t th e p o in t is , I a m n o t s u r e .
10

I f t h e p o i n t is th e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to m a k e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n
s o m e w h e r e e ls e t h a t m ig h t b e a s e p a r a t e p o i n t b u t I d o n ’ t s e e t h a t fr o m
t h a t p a r a g r a p h th e y a r e n e c e s s a r il y s a y i n g w e h a v e a p a r t ic u l a r r e a s o n
f o r n o t s e n d i n g i t t o t h e Pr o v in c i a l O ff i c e .

I a m n o t s u r e i f i t ’s

i m p o r t a n t b u t y o u t e l l m e i f i t i s i m p o r ta n t t o u n d e r s ta n d .
ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir I th i n k w e c a n l e a v e i t . . . [i n d is t in c t] .
O k a y.

ADV NICHOLSON:

Th a t s a m e p a r a g r a p h m e n t i o n s t h a t o u r c li e n t is a

potential witness, can you see that?
A D V M A N YAT H I:
20

A D V N IC H O L S O N :

Ye s .
D o y o u k n o w i f h e is a w i t n e s s i n a n y m a t te r s o f

n a t io n a l in t e r e s t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I: I d o n ’ t k n o w.

In f a c t i n my m e m o r a n d u m i n w h ic h I

r e s p o n d e d to A d v o c a te M g w e b e ’s c o v e r i n g m e m o r a n d u m w h e r e i n h e
a tt a c h e d h is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s I s a i d M a d a u i s c l o u d i n g is s u e s , m o s t o f
t h o s e a s p e c ts t h a t h e is t a lk in g a b o u t I w a s n o t p r iv y t o , t h e y d id n o t

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f e a t u r e in t h e c o r r u p ti o n m a t t e r s o I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t h e w a s t a lk i n g
a b o u t.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s j u s t s t a t e m e n ts w h ic h w e r e n o t s u b s t a n t i a t e d .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

H e d id n o t p u t u p a n y t h i n g t o s a y w h a t h e w a s

t a lk in g a b o u t w h e n h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o m a t t e r s o f n a t i o n a l i n t e r e s t ?
A D V M A N YAT H I :

Ye s , a l s o th e k e y w o r d h e s a id h e is a p o t e n t i a l

witness, not as if it is actual.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , b u t p o te n ti a l o r n o t , p o t e n t ia l w i tn e s s o r n o t

t h e s e m a t t e r s o f n a t io n a l i n t e r e s t h e i s r e f e r r in g t o h e d i d n ’ t p u t u p a n y
f a c ts to t e l l y o u w h a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t .
A D V M A N YAT H I:

Ye s , n o h e d i d n ’ t.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

ADV NICHOLSON:

D u r i n g t h is ti m e y o u h a d a lr e a d y m e n ti o n e d th a t

M a d a u w a s a n a c c u s e d i n t h e – w a s a s u s p e c t i n t h e fr a u d m a t t e r ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:
ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
O k a y.
I s e e w e a r e a t f iv e , e s t i m a te o f h o w m u c h ti m e w e

need?
20

ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e a b o u t h a l f w a y C h a ir.
W e a r e a b o u t h a l f w a y.

W e w o n ’ t g e t to t h e n e x t

witness hey?
ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir, i t s e e ms n o t C h a ir.
O k a y I t h i n k I w i ll g o u p t o h a l f p a s t fiv e , l e t ’s s e e i f

w e c a n fi n i s h , w i ll t h a t s u i t y o u i n t e r m s o f g o i n g b a c k ?

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A D V M A N YAT H I :

N o w t h a t th e C h a ir h a s a s k e d I w il l s a y, I d i d n ’ t w a n t

t o s p o i l th e r e c o r d , my fli g h t is a t s e v e n w h i c h m e a n s I w i ll h a v e t o
c h e c k in a t s i x , I d o n ’t k n o w, J o h a n n e s b u r g h a s a r e p u ta t io n o f tr a ff ic .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

I d o n ’ t k n o w, w h a t ’s t h e la t e s t I s h o u l d l e a v e h e r e

w i t h t h e tr a ff ic t o c h e c k i n a t s ix ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V M A N YAT H I:

A n d t h e r e i s n o fl ig h t a f t e r s e v e n .

A D V N IC H O L S O N :
10

M y le a r n e d fr i e n d h a s j u s t in d ic a t e d th a t if h e

m is s e s t h e f li g h t w e w il l p u t h i m o n a n o t h e r fl ig h t . ,
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t h e s a y s t h e r e i s n o o th e r fl ig h t a f t e r th a t ?

A D V M A N YAT H I:

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t is b a s e d o n w h a t M r N ic h o ls o n

said.
CHAIRPERSON:

H e to l d y o u p r e v i o u s l y.

A D V M A N YAT H I:

To l d th e C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

ADV NICHOLSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir I d id m e n ti o n t h a t t h e

a d m i n is tr a t i o n s t a ff h a d i n d ic a t e d th a t t h e r e is o n l y a f li g h t a t s e v e n
a n d th a t ’s th e fl ig h t w e b o o k e d A d v o c a te M a n y a t h i o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NICHOLSON:
A D V M A N YAT H I:

A n d th a t r e m a i n s t h e p o s i ti o n , a s f a r a s y o u k n o w.
T h a t r e m a i n s th e p o s i t io n a s f a r a s I k n o w.
S o r r y th e o th e r o p ti o n is th is , w h ic h I a m w il li n g to

s a c r i fi c e , b u t i t is a s a c r i f ic e in th e r e a l s e n s e o f t h e w o r d .
m a t t e r a t U l u n d u R e g i o n a l C o u r t to m o r r o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

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I have a

22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
A D V M A N YAT H I :

Th e r e is n o w a y I w i ll

not be there, worst case

s c e n a r i o i f t h e C o m m i s s i o n w o u l d h ir e a c a r f o r m e t o d r i v e to D u r b a n I
a m w i ll in g to s a c r i f ic e a n d l e a v e it a t D u r b a n a t t h e a ir p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , y e s , lo o k I t h i n k t h a t ’s a g o o d g e s t u r e b u t I t h i n k

w e m i g h t n o t fi n i s h i n 3 0 m i n u t e s t i m e .

I am saying that because Mr

N i c h o l s o n I th in k p r o b a b l y y o u a n d I a r e q u i t e p o o r i n e s t i m a ti n g
a n y th in g b e c a u s e y o u h a d s a id y o u t h o u g h t w e m i g h t fi n i s h b o t h
w i t n e s s e s w i th in o n e a n d a h a lf h o u r s , s o I t h i n k w h a t w e s h o u l d d o , w e
s h o u l d s t o p u n f o r tu n a te ly a n d a l lo w t h e w i t n e s s t o c a tc h h i s p l a n e a n d
10

t h e n r e q u e s t t h a t h e s h o u l d c o m e b a c k o n t h e s a m e d a y th a t t h e o t h e r
w i t n e s s m u s t c o m e b a c k , s o th a t w e c a n d e a l w i th m a t t e r s p r o p e r ly.
N o w t h e o th e r w i t n e s s , th a t i s C o l o n e l .. . [ i n te r v e n e s ]
ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

d u P l o o y, P ie t d u P l o o y ?
Ye s , I d o n ’t k n o w if I c a n a s k f o r y o u r e s ti m a t e a g a in

of how long he might be?
A D V N IC H O L S O N :

C o lo n e l d u P lo o y is d e f in i te ly g o i n g t o b e l o n g e r

t h a n A d v o c a te M a n y a th i .
CHAIRPERSON:
in .
20

J a , w e m i g h t h a v e to f i n d a n o t h e r ti m e t o b r i n g t h e m

N e x t w e e k t h e r e a r e n o w i t n e s s e s w h o w il l b e h e a r d b y t h e

C o m m i s s i o n b e c a u s e th a t ’s t h e w e e k t h a t h a d b e e n r e s e r v e d fo r t h e
f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e , s o o n e p o s s i b il i ty is t o
fi n d a d a y n e x t w e e k w h e n th e n th e y c a n c o m e b a c k o r t o fi n d a n o t h e r
d a t e n o t to o fa r fr o m n o w, s o I t h i n k w h a t s h o u ld h a p p e n is l e t’s
adjourn. Before he leaves, before they leave you get information about
p o s s i b il it i e s , d o n ’ t c o n fi n e y o u r s e l f t o n e x t w e e k , a l s o l o o k a t l a t e r in

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
F e b r u a r y o r e a r ly M a r c h , b u t a ls o n e x t w e e k b e c a u s e I ’ m n o t s u r e . I t
may be that we can use one of the days next week or it may be that we
s h o u l d r a t h e r p u t i t l a t e r o n i n Fe b r u a r y.
W o u l d t h a t b e f in e ? Ye s , le t ’s d o t h a t, l e t ’s a l l o w h i m t o c a tc h
t h e f li g h t b e c a u s e a s I s a y I a l s o d i d n ’ t w a n t to g o b e y o n d h a l f p a s t fi v e
a n d w e mi g h t p r o c e e d a n d a t h a l f p a s t f iv e w e a r e n o t d o n e a n d w h e n
h e d r iv e s a ll t h e w a y h e w o u l d a r r iv e i n D u r b a n a ft e r t w e l v e m i d n i g h t
a n d th e n h e m u s t s t il l d r iv e fr o m D u r b a n t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g t o w h e r e ?
A D V M A N YAT H I:
10

. . . [ I n d is t in c t – m i c o ff ] I s h o u l d b e l e a v i n g D u r b a n a t

h a l f p a s t fi v e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , s o I t h i n k l e t ’s r a t h e r s to p n o w a n d t h e n y o u

m a k e t h o s e a r r a n g e m e n ts a n d t h e n y o u c o m e b a c k to m e a n d t h e n I w i ll
fi x a d a t e f o r t h e m t o c o m e b a c k .

What about – when was Advocate

. . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] to c o m e , b e c a u s e m a y b e h e c o u l d c o m e t h e n t o o ?
A D V N IC H O L S O N :

C h a ir a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i t io n w a s A d v o c a te

. . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] w a s s u p p o s e d to c o m e i n th is w e e k b u t b e c a u s e t h e l a w
enforcement team had to give some of our times away a date has not
been set for him.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

J a , n o t h a t ’s fi n e , b u t h e ’s r e a d y i n t e r m s o f y o u

h a v e h i s s ta t e m e n t .
ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Yo u h a v e t h e s t a te m e n t , i t ’s a q u e s ti o n o f fi x i n g a

date?
ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

W e h a v e t h e s ta t e m e n t .
Yo u ’ v e g o t t h e s t a t e m e n t .

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22 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 203
ADV NICHOLSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

I b e l i e v e t h e 3 3 n o ti c e s h a v e b e e n s e r v e d .
O h o k a y, th a t ’s fi n e .

I ju s t w a n te d t o h a v e a n id e a ,

la t e r o n y o u c a n t e l l m e w h a t t h e p o s it i o n i s a f t e r w a r d s a n d t h e n m a y b e
t o m o r r o w a n d t h e n I c a n fi x a d a t e , b u t I t h i n k t h a t’s fi n e f o r t o d a y, l e t ’s
a l lo w M r M a n y a t h i t o c a t c h h i s f li g h t . S o w e a r e g o i n g t o a d jo u r n th e
p r o c e e d i n g s , d i s c u s s io n s w il l b e h e l d to a r r a n g e a n o t h e r d a t e a n d w e
w i ll a s k y o u to c o m e b a c k .
O k a y, s o w e a r e g o in g to t h e n a d j o u r n , w e a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y.
REGISTRAR:
10

A ll r is e .

I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 3 J A N U A R Y 2 0 2 0

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