C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

21 NOVEMBER 2019

D AY 1 9 1

20

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 21 NOVEMB ER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V N O R M A N : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir. C h a ir b e fo r e w e c o m m e n c e w i th
the evidence of Minister Nkoana-Mashabane might I just call – Chair
c a l l c o u n c il f o r h e r t o p l a c e h i ms e lf o n r e c o r d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : O k a y. Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V S I B E K O : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir m a y i t p l e a s e y o u . . .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning – yes.
ADV SIBEKO:

M y n a m e is Ts h e p o S i b e k o I r e p r e s e n t th e M i n is t e r in

t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SIBEKO:

I m a y ju s t p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t t h e M i n is t e r h a s c o m e

p u r e ly o f y o u r o w n v o l it i o n p u r s u a n t t o a r e q u e s t th a t w a s m a d e t o h e r
a n d s h e is n o t u n d e r a n y s u b p o e n a . T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u .
ADV NORMAN:

T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a i r b e f o r e y o u , y o u

w i ll h a v e a d o c u m e n t w h ic h is a p r e s e n t a t i o n f il e m a r k e d E x h i b it F F 1 4 .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . Br in g th e m h e r e . Br i n g t h e fi l e s . T h a t
is f i n e b e c a u s e t h e y a r e n o t m a n y.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s c h a n g in g th e n o r m b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e n o t m a n y.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L ik e w e s o m e ti m e s h a v e s o I c a n m a n a g e th e m .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : N o , n o th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A t y o u r r e q u e s t C h a ir y o u – w e h a d
p l a c e d b e f o r e t h e R e g i s tr a r E x h i b i t F F 3 , F F 8 a n d Ex h i b it F F w h ic h w il l
b e t h e tr a n s c r i p ts o f t h e p r o c e e d in g s r e la t i n g t o A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o – d o w e h a v e t h e b u n d l e th a t h a s g o t t h e r e p o r t o f
t h a t j o in t c o m m i t t e e t h a t w a s a p p o i n te d b y g o v e r n m e n t to in v e s t i g a t e
t h is m a t t e r. D o w e h a v e i t h e r e ?
A D V N O R M A N : I t is – i t i s i n c l u d e d i n F F – I t h i n k i t w i ll b e i n F F 3 b u t
10

M s [ i n d is ti n c t ] i s g o i n g to a s s is t y o u t h a t – th e r e l e v a n t p a g e q u ic k ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is in o n e o f t h e b u n d l e s ?
A D V N O R M A N : I t i s i n o n e o f th e b u n d l e s , th a t i s c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y n o t h a t is a lr i g h t .
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s .

C h a i r t h i s – t h e E x h ib i t F F1 4 w h ic h is t h e

e v i d e n c e o f M i n is t e r M a i t e E m i ly N k o a n a - M a s h a b a n e m i g h t t h e e x h i b it
b e e n t e r e d i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
CHAIRPERSON:
20

T h e s m a ll f il e c o n t a in i n g th e s t a te m e n t b y M s M a i te

E m i ly N k o a n a - M a s h a b a n e w il l b e a d m i t t e d a s E x h ib i t F F1 4 .
A D V N O R M A N : A s y o u p le a s e C h a ir. A n d m a y th e w i tn e s s b e s w o r n
in ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s e a d m in is t e r t h e o a t h o r a ff ir m a t io n ?
A D V N O R M A N : C h a i r – C h a ir m i g h t I j u s t b e f o r e t h e w i t n e s s – ju s t s o
w e d o n o t f o r g e t m i g h t C h a i r p u t F F 3 a n d t h e r e p o r t t h a t C h a ir is

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
lo o k in g w i ll b e p a g e s 5 2 t o 8 8 – 8 2 . Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w w h a t is h a p p e n i n g w it h o u r m ic r o p h o n e .
When you speak.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e r e is a n e c h o o r w h a t i t is b u t i t is
n o t a s a u d ib le .
ADV NORMAN: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a s c l e a r a s i t n o r m a lly is .

I do not know

whether…
10

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n I s p e a k p e o p le h e a r t h e s a m e p r o b le m w h e t h e r
I a m c l e a r a n d th e y c a n h e a r m e w e ll .
ADV NORMAN:

C h a ir I – I c a n h e a r C h a ir v e r y w e ll .

Ye s – y e s I

b e li e v e C h a ir is q u i t e a u d i b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O k a y. S o j u s t r e p e a t w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g

because I did not hear it.
A D V N O R M A N : O h C h a ir I w a s – i t w a s j u s t t h e – th e r e p o r t t h a t y o u
20

w e r e lo o k i n g f o r j u s t b e f o r e i t is a t p a g e s 5 2 t o 8 8 o f F F3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a t i s – th a n k s – th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u m a y a d m in is t e r th e o a t h o r a ffi r m a ti o n .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e p l a c e y o u r f u l l n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
MINISTER

NKOANA-MASHABANE:

My

name

is

M a i te

Nkoana-

Mashabane.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
10

tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: So help me God.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u m a y s i t M i n i s t e r. I j u s t w a n t to s a y b e f o r e
w e s t a r t w e lc o m e a n d t h a n k y o u f o r r e s p o n d i n g to t h e r e q u e s t th a t y o u
c o m e a n d s h a r e w i th u s in f o r m a t io n r e l a ti n g to t h e W a t e r k lo o f l a n d i n g
t h a t y o u m a y b e a b le t o s h a r e w i t h u s .

I c o n fi r m th a t y o u a r e h e r e

because I requested that you come and that you are not under any
s u b p o e n a s o I t h a n k y o u f o r r e s p o n d i n g p o s i ti v e ly t o t h e r e q u e s t .

I

t h o u g h t i t w a s i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e s h o u l d h a v e y o u t o c o m e a n d d e a l w i th
20

c e r t a i n a s p e c ts b e c a u s e i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t a s f a r a s p o s s i b le th e
c o m m i s s io n g e ts a ll p e r s p e c t iv e s fr o m r o l e p l a y e r s a s t o c e r ta in t h i n g s
b e f o r e i t r e a c h e s a n y c o n c lu s i o n s .

S o t h a t – t h a t is w h y I r e q u e s te d

t h a t y o u b e a s k e d to c o m e h e r e a n d th a n k y o u f o r r e s p o n d i n g
p o s i ti v e ly.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : M y h o n o u r C h a ir.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . O k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M i n is t e r is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a r e th e
M i n is t e r in t h e Pr e s id e n c y, M i n i s t e r o f W o m e n , Yo u t h a n d p e r s o n w i th
d is a b i li t ie s ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s I a m .
A D V N O R M A N : Th a n k y o u . H o w l o n g h a v e y o u b e e n a M in is t e r in t h a t
P o r t f o l io ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : F iv e m o n th s p lu s – s i n c e t h e s i x t h
a d m i n is tr a t i o n s t a r t e d .
10

ADV NORMAN:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u . Is i t a ls o c o r r e c t th a t d u r i n g t h e

period February 2018 to 29 May 2019 you were a Minister in the
Department of Rural Development and Land Reform?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . A n d t h e n b e fo r e t h a t y o u w e r e a M i n is t e r i n th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f In t e r n a t i o n a l R e l a ti o n s fo r a p e r io d o f a b o u t n i n e y e a r s
fr o m t h e 1 0 M a y 2 0 0 9 t o 2 6 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s .

Is i t a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t in 2 0 11 y o u w e r e t h e

P r e s i d e n t o f t h e U n i t e d N a ti o n s C li m a t e C h a n g e C o n fe r e n c e ?
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN:

T h e n l a s tl y o n – j u s t o n y o u r b r i e f s u m m a r y o f y o u r

c a r e e r i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t d u r i n g y o u r t e n u r e a s t h e M i n i s te r o f
I n t e r n a ti o n a l R e l a ti o n s t h a t is w h e n S o u t h A fr i c a b e c a m e a m e m b e r o f
B r ic s ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : I s t h a t c o r r e c t? Ye s . M i n is te r th e n a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n
is a l r e a d y a ll o w – o u t li n e d th e p u r p o s e f o r y o u r p r e s e n c e t o d a y i t
r e l a t e s t o t h e Wa t e r la n d i n g – I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir I s e e th e
t e c h n ic ia n s r a i s i n g t h e ir h a n d s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V N O R M A N : T h e y a r e r e q u e s ti n g a n a d j o u r n m e n t C h a ir. T h e y h a v e
a t e c h n ic a l p r o b le m .

T h e y a r e r e q u e s t e d a n a d jo u r n m e n t f o r f iv e

minutes>
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is i t – is – i s t h e r e s ti ll a p r o b l e m ? T h e r e is .
10

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

H o w m u c h t i m e d o t h e y th i n k th e y n e e d t o –

fi v e m i n u t e s ?
A D V N O R M A N : T h e y s a y f iv e mi n u te s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y w e w il l j u s t h a v e to a d j o u r n f o r a s h o r t

ti m e t o e n a b l e t h e t e c h n i c i a n s t o fi x w h a t e v e r t h e p r o b l e m i s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
20

ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
MEETING ADJOURNS
HEARING RESUMES
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p r o b l e m h a s b e e n s o r t e d o u t?

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : T h a t i s w h a t I w a s a d v is e d y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV NORMAN:

Thank you very much.

M i n is t e r I b e li e v e y o u a ls o

s e r v e d a s a H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r in v a r i o u s c o u n tr ie s .

Could you just

t e ll t h e C h a i r p e r s o n w h e r e d i d y o u s e r v e a s a n A m b a s s a d o r w h e n
d u r i n g y o u r ti m e b e fo r e y o u b e c a m e t h e M i n i s te r o f I n t e r n a t io n a l
Relations?
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I w a s a m o n g s t –
I h a d t h e h o n o u r to b e a m o n g s t t h e f ir s t t w e lv e A m b a s s a d o r s o r H i g h
C o m m i s s i o n e r s p o s t 1 9 9 4 a p p o in t e d b y o u r fir s t P r e s i d e n t o f t h e fr e e
S o u th A fr ic a . M y p o s ti n g w a s t o M a l a s i a in 1 9 9 5 . A t t h e ti m e w h e n I
s e r v e d in M a l a s i a I w a s c o n c u r r e n tly s e r v i n g a s A m b a s s a d o r i n th e
P h il ip p i n e s a n d H ig h C o m m is s i o n e r i n B r u n e i . A t t h e c o n c l u s io n o f m y
t e r m t h e n i n 1 9 9 9 I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d o r r e - a p p o i n t e d b y t h e n Pr e s id e n t
M b e k i t o In d ia a s H i g h C o m m i s s i o n e r.

T h e r e I a ls o s e r v e d a s n o n -

r e s id e n t H ig h C o m m is s i o n e r a n d A m b a s s a d o r t o Sr i L a n k a , M a l d iv e s ,
Bangladesh and Napal.
20

U p o n m y r e t u r n e a r ly – e n d o f 2 0 0 5 I w a s

a p p o i n t e d i n m y h o m e p r o v in c e a s M E C f o r t h e n t w o d e p a r t m e n ts a n d
m y b i g r e s p o n s i b il it y w a s t o a m a lg a m a t e b o th l o c a l g o v e r n m e n t a n d
h o u s i n g w h ic h I w o u l d s a y m y s e l f a n d t h e t e a m h a d th e h o n o u r t o
a c c o m p lis h t h a t t a s k .

T h a t is – m y n e x t a p p o i n t m e n t w a s to b e c o m e

t h e M i n is te r o f I n te r n a ti o n a l R e l a ti o n s a n d C o o p e r a ti o n s s i n c e M a y
2009.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Thank you.
ADV NORMAN:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M i n i s t e r j u s t to p u t y o u r e v i d e n c e

t o d a y in c o n te x t a n d y o u a r e a w a r e o f th e Wa t e r k l o o f la n d i n g o r w h a t is
t h e i n c id e n t w h e r e a c o m m e r c i a l a ir c r a f t l a n d e d a t t h e W a t e r k lo o f
D e f e n c e Fo r c e B a s e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

A n d I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r y o u h a d fo ll o w e d t h e

e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n l e d b e f o r e th e c o m m is s i o n fr o m v a r i o u s
10

witnesses

in c l u d i n g

Ambassador

K o l o a n e ’s

evidence.

And

that

h a p p e n e d o n th e 3 0 A p r il 2 0 1 3
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
A D V N O R M A N : H o w d i d y o u g e t t o k n o w a b o u t t h a t i n c id e n t? B e c a u s e
a t t h e t i m e y o u w e r e t h e M in is t e r o f I n t e r n a ti o n a l R e l a ti o n s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: W e ll I g o t t o k n o w o f t h e la n d i n g o f
t h e a ir c r a f t o n t e l e v is io n .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . A n d w a s t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y j u s t r e p e a t – r e p e a t t h a t.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:
20

I g o t t o k n o w th a t a n a ir c r a f t h a d

la n d e d o n t e l e v is i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . A n d a s a M in is t e r w h a t s t e p s d i d y o u t a k e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I i m m e d i a t e ly c a l le d th e D G – th e
t h e n D G w h o is o u r A m b a s s a d o r i n N e w Yo r k n o w o r a p e r m a n e n t r e p .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s s o th a t w o u l d b e A m b a s s a d o r M a ts h e l a b e c a u s e

h e h a s a ls o te s t i fi e d ? Is t h a t …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I h e a r h e h a s a ls o t e s t i fi e d y e s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: I saw him – was – yes.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s a lr i g h t .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:
10

Hm.

An d I w a n t e d t o u n d e r s t a n d

h o w d i d w e g e t in v o lv e d in t h i s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh maybe before you get there maybe you can just

t e ll m e t h e w h o l e s t o r y th a t y o u h e a r d o n t e l e v is i o n . B e c a u s e p r o b a b ly
whatever

was

s a id

might

have

included

something

about

your

d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e n y o u r e a c t e d i n a c e r t a i n w a y b l a , b l a , b la .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o m a y b e w h a t d i d y o u h e a r o n t e l e v is io n a n d t h e n

h o w d i d y o u r e a c t b l a , b la , b l a ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

W e ll w h e n t h e n e w s b r o k e a

p r i v a t e a ir c r a f t h a d la n d e d in a – a – s u p p o s e d t o b e a s e c u r e s p a c e f o r
20

g o v e r n m e n t s o I w a s n o t p e r t u r b e d a t fir s t b e c a u s e m a n y s u c h
in c i d e n c e s h a p p e n w i t h o u t u s . W e o n l y g e t in v o lv e d i f t h e r e i s – th e r e
w a s a d i p l o m a ti c g u e s t a r r iv i n g . S o t h a t is w h e n I – a t f ir s t I w a s n o t
p e r t u r b e d – I w a s n o t r e a l ly w o r r i e d b e c a u s e w e w o u ld n o t b e i n v o l v e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t – w h a t w a s s a i d o n t e l e v is io n ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: What – what…

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CHAIRPERSON:

D id n o t in c l u d e a n y r e f e r e n c e t o y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a t

le a s t w h a t y o u h e a r d a t t h a t t i m e ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

A t th e t i m e y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r r e a c ti o n w a s y o u k n o w w e ll a t l e a s t th e r e i s
n o t h i n g – i t h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h m y d e p a r t m e n t a t th a t s t a g e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y p le a s e c o n t i n u e .
10

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d th e n – a n d t h e n a t w h a t
p o i n t th e n M i n i s t e r d i d y o u r e a l is e t h a t – y o u h a d t o t a k e s te p s n o w a s
t h e M i n i s te r o f I n t e r n a ti o n a l R e l a t io n s a f te r y o u h a v e h e a r d = h e a r d t h e
r e p o r t fr o m t h e r a d i o – a g f r o m t h e T V ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

W e ll w e t h e n h e a r d – w e h e a r d

t h a t t h e C h i e f o f S t a te P r o t o c o l w a s p r e s e n t i n th e v ic i n i ty – in t h e
a r e a . S o t h a t is w h e n I w a n t e d t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t w a s h e d o i n g th e r e ?
S o th a t i s w h e n I c a l le d th e th e n D G a n d th e fo r m e r A m b a s s a d o r a n d
t h e H e a d o f H R t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th is w a s a b o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e n y o u s a y y o u c a l le d th e D G t h a t w a s M r …
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : M a t ji l a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a tj il a – ja M a t ji la .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e n y o u s a y t h e fo r m e r A m b a s s a d o r y o u

r e fe r r i n g t o M r K o l o a n e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .

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CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h e r e is a t h i r d p e r s o n t h a t y o u s a y y o u

called?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Mr M o h a i w h o w a s t h e H e a d o f H R
then.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

S o t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th is w a s

a b o u t. Fr o m t h e o u ts e t w e w a n t e d to u n d e r s t a n d h o w d id – b e c a u s e I –
10

w e w e r e n o t i n v o lv e d s o I w a n t e d to u n d e r s t a n d w h o s e n t h i m to
Wa t e r k l o o f . H e s a i d n o - o n e . I t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w it h t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
H e h a d n o t b e e n s e n t . It w a s a n o v e r s i g h t. S o I s a i d , o k a y n o w th a t
we are not involved.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is n o w M r K o l o a n e s a y i n g th a t t o y o u ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y c o n ti n u e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

S o I s a i d I a m n o t h a p p y.

I then

in s t r u c t e d D G th a t th e y – h e h a s – a n d h i ms e l f t h a t h e h a s to f a c e a
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s w h ic h e n s u e d . Ye s .
20

ADV NORMAN:

Ye s .

Thank you.

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

So just by –

b e c a u s e o f y o u r – o f y o u r e x p e r ie n c e h a v i n g b e e n a M i n i s te r o f
I n t e r n a ti o n a l R e l a ti o n s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

W a s t h is t h e f ir s t i n c id e n t t o o c c u r w h e r e y o u w o u l d

h a v e a n a ir c r a f t o f t h is n a t u r e l a n d i n g a t a n a ir b a s e a n d y o u h a v e y o u r

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C h i e f o f S t a t e Pr o to c o l b e in g p a r t o f t h a t e x e r c is e a n d w i t h o u t y o u a s
the Minister having any knowledge of that?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: Ye s . B e c a u s e i f – i f o t h e r a ir c r a f t s
n o r m a l ly d o n o t – o r o th e r v is i to r s n o r m a lly d o n o t – if t h e y w e r e n o t
v is it i n g u s b u t t h e y a r e p a r t o f y o u k n o w t h e y a r e s e r v in g i n th e ir
r e s p e c ti v e g o v e r n m e n ts t h e y w i ll d i r e c t ly g o t o t h e r e l e v a n t d e p a r t m e n t
a n d m a k e a p p li c a t io n s t h e r e . S o it is – w e o n ly g o t in v o lv e d i f th is w a s
a d ip l o m a tic m i s s i o n a n d p r o p e r a p p l ic a t i o n s h a v e t o – h a d to b e m a d e .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o – s o w h e r e a n a ir c r a ft w o u l d b r i n g in d ip lo m a t ic

p e r s o n n e l m a y b e th e y – I d o n o t k n o w i f t h a t is t h e c o r r e c t n a m e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t th e k i n d o f p e o p le th a t w o u l d r e q u ir e y o u r

d e p a r t m e n t t o b e in v o lv e d w o u ld y o u a l w a y s k n o w i n a d v a n c e o r i t
w o u ld d e p e n d o n t h e l e v e l o f t h e d ip l o m a t ic p e r s o n s i n v o l v e d – a s
M i n is t e r ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: C h a ir i t w o u l d d e p e n d o n t h e l e v e l
of the guest.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s . B u t e v e n w i th t h a t w e w o u ld
h a v e t o c h e c k d o c u m e n t a r y p r o o f i f t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a n e e d p o s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

O k a y.

Yo u – y o u – t h e l e v e l a t w h i c h y o u

w o u ld h a v e t o k n o w i n a d v a n c e w o u l d b e fr o m w h a t ?

F r o m M i n is t e r

le v e l?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : M i n s t e r, H e a d o f S t a t e .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t o r P r i m e M i n i s t e r a n d s o o n .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V N O R M A N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d a t t h e ti m e th e n w h e n y o u h a d –
ju s t b e fo r e y o u h a d d ir e c te d t h a t d is c i p li n a r y h e a r i n g s p r o c e e d i n g s b e
b r o u g h t a g a i n s t A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e d i d h e m a k e a n y m e n t io n o f w h y
he did what he did?
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Never save to own up.

He has

b e e n o w n in g u p a n d n o t s a y i n g h o w d i d h e g e t t o d o t h is . S o h e w e n t
t h r o u g h t h e d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s .
up.

He opened up and again he owned

A n d t h a t is w h e n h e g o t s a n c t i o n s t h a t I h a d p r e s e n t e d i n m y

a ffi d a v i t .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

A n d – a n d h e g o t t o g e t th e

p u n is h m e n t h e g o t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s t a l k a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g b e c a u s e I t a k e i t
t o h a v e b e e n a m e e ti n g b u t y o u m u s t t e l l m e if I a m w r o n g .
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Where you heard the then DG.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr K o lo a n e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: And the Head of HR.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t m e e ti n g . I t w a s a m e e ti n g , is th a t r i g h t?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e ll C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w a s i t n o t ? W h e r e y o u h e a r d t h i s s to r y ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: I t w a s w h e n – it w a s w h e n C h a ir I
w a s j u s t tr y in g to e s t a b li s h t h e f a c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A s t o r e a l ly d i d t h is h a p p e n ? B u t I
d i d n o t w a n t t o b e – b e c a u s e I d id n o t w a n t to b e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e t o o in v o lv e d ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B e c a u s e i t is n o t m y r e s p o n s e – i t
is t o o i n v o l v e d b e c a u s e i t i s n o t m y r e s p o n s ib il i ty n e c e s s a r i ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Ys.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h e a d m in is tr a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u – y o u d i d o b v i o u s ly w a n t t o k n o w w h a t

h a p p e n e d a n d t h e n i n o r d e r t o b e a b le t o m a k e u p y o u r m i n d w h e t h e r
y o u s h o u l d a s k t h e D G to in v o k e s o m e d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s e s ?
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e ll I w a n t e d t o k n o w th e b a s ic s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B u t I d i d n o t w a n t t o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e t t o o in v o lv e d .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Get involved.
CHAIRPERSON: ja.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W h e n th e p r o c e s s h a d n o t e v e n

started yet.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a t t h a t m e e t in g d i d h e – y o u s a i d – I t h i n k y o u

s a i d h e o w n e d u p a n d y o u s a i d h e s a i d i t w a s o v e r s ig h t , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s . B e c a u s e I a s k e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: What task were you performing?
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

A s C h i e f o f S t a t e P r o t o c o l.

He

c o u l d n o t r e s p o n d . H e s a i d i t w a s a n o v e r s ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

S o I t h o u g h t t h i s is a c a s e f o r

d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: So I must get out.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:
20

S o t h a t t h e g o v e r n m e n t o ff ic i a ls

d e a l w it h t h e m a t t e r – s e n i o r o ffi c i a l s p r o p e r l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a t t h a t s t a g e d id h e s a y a n y t h i n g t o y o u o r d i d y o u
k n o w a t t h a t s t a g e a n y t h in g a b o u t th e a ll e g a t io n th a t h e h a d t o l d s o m e
o ffic i a ls t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t k n e w a b o u t t h is a ir c r a f t t h a t w a s g o in g t o

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
la n d o r th a t i n s tr u c t io n s h a d b e e n g iv e n e i t h e r b y t h e P r e s i d e n t ,
P r e s i d e n t o r Mi n is te r o f Tr a n s p o r t o r M i n is t e r o f D e f e n c e . A t th a t s t a g e
d o y o u r e c a l l w h e th e r t h a t w a s s o m e th i n g th a t y o u h a d h e a r d a b o u t o r
d i d h e t e l l y o u a b o u t it o r is t h a t s o m e t h i n g th a t y o u m i g h t h a v e g o t t o
k n o w la t e r ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I h e a r d a b o u t t h a t l a t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B e c a u s e li k e I s a i d C h a ir I d i d n o t
w a n t to g e t m y s e lf .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : To o i n v o l v e d ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I n to t h e – to o i n v o lv e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S o t h a t w e e s ta b l is h r e a l f a c t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s .

Thank you.

Thank you.

M i n is t e r w o u ld it –

o r d i n a r i ly is it p o s s i b l e f o r a n y A m b a s s a d o r – I a m s o s o r r y – fo r a n y
M i n is t e r o r H e a d o f S t a t e a t t h e l e v e l a t w h i c h y o u h a v e a lr e a d y
id e n t i fi e d t h a t is s e n io r M i n is te r s a n d H e a d s o f S t a t e , i s i t p o s s i b l e f o r
t h e m t o a r r iv e i n t h e c o u n tr y w i th o u t y o u k n o w i n g a s a M i n i s te r o f
20

I n t e r n a ti o n a l R e l a ti o n s ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Some do. They are on holding.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If it is n o t o ffic i a l ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I f i t i s n o t o ffic i a l .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h e y a r r iv e .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON: ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A n d th e y g o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S o m e o u t o f c o u r t e s y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Do say we are around.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a , j a .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f i t i s o ff ic i a l y o u w o u l d k n o w ?
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

I f i t is o ff ic i a l t h e r e w il l b e a

d i p l o m a t ic n o t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h a t s a y s h e r e i s a n e n v o y – if i t
is a n e n v o y o f Pr e s id e n t s o a n d s o o r is a M i n i s te r o f t h is a n d t h a t.
T h o s e t h i n g s a r e n o r m a ll y d e a l t w i t h b y t h e P r o to c o l D iv is io n .

But if

t h e g u e s t w a s t o c o m e to m e o r t o th e P r e s i d e n t t h a t is w h e n I w o u l d
t h e n a c t b e c a u s e I w o u ld t h e n h a v e t o p a r ti c i p a te i n t h e ir p r o c e s s – i n
t h e ir p r o g r a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s th a t m e a n t h a t o n e c o u ld h a v e a s it u a ti o n w h e r e
20

a M in is t e r c o m e s i n t o t h e c o u n tr y – a M i n i s t e r f r o m a n o th e r c o u n tr y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

C o m e s i n t o t h e c o u n tr y o n o ff ic ia l b u s i n e s s a n d a ll

t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n h a s b e e n d o n e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.

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CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u m ig h t n o t k n o w b e c a u s e h e o r s h e d o e s n o t

n e e d t o s e e y o u a n d d o e s n o t n e e d t o s e e t h e P r e s id e n t . I n o th e r w o r d s
w o u ld y o u o n l y k n o w p e r s o n a ll y b e c a u s e t h e M i n i s t e r c o n c e r n e d w a n ts
t o s e e y o u w h il e h e o r s h e is i n th e c o u n tr y o r w a n ts t o s e e t h e
P r e s i d e n t ? I f t h e y d o n o t w a n t to s e e y o u o r th e Pr e s id e n t t h e y m i g h t
b e in t h e c o u n tr y a n d y o u m i g h t n o t k n o w o f p e r s o n a ll y b u t o ff ic ia ls i n
y o u r d e p a r t m e n t w o u ld k n o w. W o u l d th a t b e p o s s i b l e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: It is p o s s i b le . L ik e I r e p e a t C h a ir
t h e r e w i ll b e a p a p e r tr a i l o f d i p l o m a tic n o te s b e tw e e n t h e ir r e s p e c t iv e
10

e m b a s s ie s a n d t h e Pr o to c o l a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV NORMAN:

Th a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

A n d t h e n M i n is t e r

m o v i n g th e n t o – t h e n a f t e r y o u t h e n h a d d ir e c t e d th a t d is c ip li n a r y
p r o c e e d i n g s s h o u ld b e le v e ll e d a g a i n s t h i m a n d th e n a s y o u h a v e t o ld
t h e C h a ir th a t h a p p e n e d .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

Th e n w h e n n e x t d i d y o u g e t in v o lv e d i n t h e m a tt e r i f

y o u d id ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: I n e x t g o t i n v o lv e d C h a ir w h e n t h e
20

r e s u l t s c a m e o u t o f th e d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s . W h e n – a n d I s a n c t i o n e d
– I s ig n e d o ff . A n d h e w e n t t o s e r v e h i s t e r m a n d c a m e b a c k . B y t h e
w a y f o r m e r A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e I f ir s t m e t h i m i n 2 0 0 7 m e e t - I m e a n
s e e h i m fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e in S p a i n d u r i n g Pr e s i d e n t M b e k i ’s ti m e .

He

w a s A m b a s s a d o r o f S o u t h A fr ic a i n S p a i n . S o w h e n h e c a m e b a c k I h a d
b e c o m e a M i n is t e r. Th is m a n h a d s e r v e d i n K o to v o f o r – r e p r e s e n ti n g

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
D T I in J a p a n , i n C h i n a , S h a n g h a i .

So in all the areas that he had

w o r k e d i n h e h a d e x c e l le d . S o h e c a m e b a c k a n d w e n e e d e d t o – h e
c a m e b a c k a t t h e t i m e w h e n w e w e r e a d v is i n g a p o s t f o r th e D D G fo r
Protocol.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I a m s o r r y M i n i s t e r.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e w e g e t t o th a t p o i n t.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a n d I a n d Ms N o r m a n a n d y o u r c o u n c il p r o b a b ly
10

r e m e m b e r s o m e o f t h e d e ta il s b e c a u s e w e h a v e h a d t o l o o k a t th e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n a h e a d o f t o d a y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t o t h e r p e o p l e m i g h t h a v e f o r g o tt e n c e r t a i n t h i n g s .
I t h in k le t u s s t a r t w it h w h a t y o u e s t a b lis h e d t h e r e s u l t o f t h e
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s to h a v e b e e n ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o th e r w o r d s t h e d is c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s c o n c lu d e d a n d
y o u g o t t o k n o w.

Te ll u s w h a t y o u g o t t o k n o w h a d h a p p e n e d a t t h e

d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s .
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t t h e o u tc o m e w a s a n d – s o t h a t w e c a n

t h e n fo ll o w e v e r y th in g p r o p e r ly ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e ll t h e d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s f o u n d
t h a t C h a ir h e s h o u l d b e s u s p e n d e d fo r a p e r i o d o f th r e e m o n t h s . Tw o
m o n th s – I a m s o r r y. O n e o f th e th r e e m o n t h s w i th o u t p a y.

Page 20 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s a w – I s a w y o u r a ffi d a v i t s a y s t h a t b u t I th i n k t h e
ruling says.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S u s p e n s i o n w i t h o u t p a y fo r t w o m o n t h s . I t d o e s n o t

s e e m t o m a k e a n y r e fe r e n c e t o th r e e m o n th s . Yo u m i g h t b e m i s t a k e n
a b o u t t h a t?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Let m e get the Chair again?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r m y – t h e r e is a p r o b l e m
w i t h my o n e n o w. Yo u m u s t t e ll m e i f t h e r e i s .
10

A D V N O R M A N : N o C h a ir I c a n – I c a n h e a r y o u p r o p e r l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n h e a r m e ?
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M in is t e r c a n y o u h e a r m e q u i te c l e a r ly ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I c a n h e a r y o u S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s a y i n g I s a w th a t i n y o u r a ff i d a v i t .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d t h a t th e s a n c t i o n th a t h a d b e e n i m p o s e d o n

20

him was three months.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s a y i n g t h a t w h e n I l o o k e d a t th e r u l in g o f th e

C h a ir p e r s o n i t s a i d t w o m o n th s .

T h e r e w a s n o r e fe r e n c e t o t h r e e

m o n th s a s I – a s I r e a d i t . S o I a m j u s t w a n ti n g t o c h e c k w h e t h e r y o u
m i g h t n o t b e m i s t a k e n a b o u t s a y i n g t h r e e m o n th s .

Page 21 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

I can go and check the records

a g a in .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

A lr i g h t .

A s I u n d e r s ta n d I th i n k M s

N o r m a n a ls o s a y s th e s a m e .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s it is . Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s a y s t w o m o n th s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
A D V N O R M A N : M a y I j u s t d ir e c t t h e M in is t e r t o th e r e l e v a n t p a g e ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u . M i n is te r i n – n e x t t o y o u , y o u w i ll fi n d t h a t
t h e r e i s t w o l e v e r a r c h f il e s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
A D V N O R M A N : T h e o n e i s m a r k e d E x h i b it F F 3 . I f y o u j u s t t u r n i t o n
t h e s p in e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h is o n e .
A D V N O R M A N : O n t h e s p i n e – i n s id e – o u ts i d e t h e s p in e – o u ts i d e t h e
fi le – s o r r y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : E x h i b i t F F8 ?

20

A D V N O R M A N : O h s o r r y o k a y. S o r r y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Oh this one?
ADV NORMAN: Thank you. FF3 – yes thank you. If you may please
t u r n t o p a g e 3 6 , 3 6 o f t h a t b u n d l e . C h a ir i t w i ll b e u n d e r a d iv id e r
marked.
CHAIRPERSON: I found it.

Page 22 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : O h h a v e y o u fo u n d i t?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . M a r k e d 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a t p a g e 3 6 a t t h e t o p .
ADV NORMAN: Page – yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 1 2 , c a n y o u s e e i t?
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

C h a ir a r e y o u a l l o w in g m e t o

proceed?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s . P a r a 1 2 . 1
“ S u s p e n s i o n w i t h o u t p a y fo r a p e r i o d o f 2 m o n t h s a s
a n a l te r n a ti v e to d is m is s a l in te r ms o f C l a u s e 2 . 7 [ 4
of Chapter 7] of the SM S handbook.
written

warning

w h ic h

s h a ll

be

1 2 .2 – F i n a l

placed

on

the

e m p l o y e e ’s p e r s o n a l fi le a n d s h a ll r e m a i n v a l i d fo r
20

s ix m o n th s . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th e – y o u r r e f e r e n c e t o t h e t h r e e m o n t h s m i g h t

have been
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .

Page 23 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : M is ta k e n .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV NORMAN:

C h a ir m a y t h e w i t n e s s – m a y t h e M i n i s t e r a ls o r e a d

p a r a g r a p h 11 ?

B e c a u s e i t s e e ms t o t ie i n w i th t h e s a n c ti o n a b o v e

paragraph 12. Where you have just read on the same page. Paragraph
11 .
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s o k a y.
“ B a s e d o n m y c o n s id e r a ti o n th a t is M r – A d v o c a te
M a t lr j e s n r o f th e f a c ts b o t h p a r t i e s a g g r a v a ti n g a n d
m i ti g a ti n g f a c t o r s I s tr o n g ly r e c o m m e n d t h a t t h e ir
e m p l o y e r s e r io u s ly c o n s i d e r r e d e p lo y i n g K o lo a n e t o
a n o t h e r b r a n c h i n o r d e r t o r e v iv e t h e c o n f id e n c e ,
in t e g r i ty a n d e ffic i e n c y o f s a t e p r o t o c o l . ”
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

20

Thank you.

Th e n u p o n r e c e i p t o f th is th e n w h a t d i d

y o u d o M in is t e r ?
CHAIRPERSON: Well maybe …
A D V N O R M A N : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h a t .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m u s t j u s t s a y t h i s . T h a t l a s t p a g e M i n is t e r w h ic h –
in w h ic h th e s a n c ti o n a p p e a r s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s p a g e 9 o f t h e d is c ip l in a r y C h a ir p e r s o n ’s r u l i n g o n

s a n c ti o n . I d o n o t p a g e 8 o f t h a t r u l in g a n d a ls o t h e r e is n o p a g e – I d o
not have page 6.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I do have page 7.

ti m e w h e n t h e r e w a s a h e a r i n g .
10

I d i d n o t h a v e t h e s e p a g e s la s t

I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t v a r i o u s a t t e m p ts

h a v e b e e n m a d e t o tr y a n d o b ta in th e s e p a g e s . I t a k e i t a n d w h i c h M s
N o r m a n w i ll c o n f ir m i n c lu d in g fr o m t h e – fr o m y o u r f o r m e r d e p a r t m e n t
p r o b a b ly y o u c a n d o n o t h i n g a b o u t i t n o w b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t i n th a t
d e p a r t m e n t.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So – so – excuse me. One does not know what the

C h a ir p e r s o n h a d s a i d i n p a g e 8 .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h m a y h a v e i n f o r m e d w h a t h e s a y s o r s h e s a y s I
do not know if it was a he or a she.
20

ADV NORMAN: It is a she.
CHAIRPERSON:

A t th e to p o f p a g e 9 o f th e r u l i n g – p a g e 3 6 o f t h e

b u n d l e u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 11 .

S o – s o I j u s t m e n ti o n e d t h a t .

I do not

k n o w w h e t h e r y o u h a v e a n y r e c o l le c ti o n w h e t h e r w h e n y o u p r e v i o u s ly
s a w t h e r u l in g i f i t w a s g i v e n t o y o u a t t h e ti m e w h e t h e r it h a d a ll t h e
pages?

Page 25 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e ll i t h a d a ll t h e p a g e s S ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I a m [i n d is ti n c t ] C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w e h a v e th a t d is a d v a n t a g e .

Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t ,

c o n ti n u e .
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s . Th a n k y o u C h a ir I c o n f ir m C h a i r t h e
s t e p s a n d w e h a v e p r e p a r e d a s m a l l b u n d l e f o r t h e C h a ir o f t h e e ff o r ts
t h a t th e c o m m i s s io n h a d m a d e b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e y o u s h o u l d d e a l w i t h t h a t n o w s o th a t w e p u t i t
10

aside.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir. M a y I ju s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t e ll m e w h a t e ffo r t s h a v e b e e n m a d e ?
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

T h a t is a d o c u m e n t t h a t c o n s is ts o f v a r i o u s e m a il s b u t m a y b e w e c o u ld
s t a r t C h a ir – I k n o w e m a i ls w e h a v e g o t t o s t a r t b a c k w a r d s b u t I a m
a d v is e d th a t m a y b e w e m ig h t n e e d t o j u s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Well some of us
A D V N O R M A N : Yo u w a n t t o s t a r t w i th t h e b a s ic s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n i t c o m e s t o te c h n o l o g y h a v e c e r t a i n c h a ll e n g e s .
20

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s ta r t w h e r e v e r i t is c o n v e n ie n t to s t a r t .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O R M A N : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir m a y w e s ta r t th e n a t p a g e 5 o f
that?

W h ic h is t h e la t e s t c o m m u n i c a t io n a g a in a n o th e r l a s t a t te m p t

Page 26 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
w h ic h w e m a d e y e s t e r d a y to A d v o c a t e M B M a tl e jw a n e w h o w a s th e
C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I c o n fi r m th a t I s p o k e to h e r p e r s o n a ll y a n d s h e
p r o d u c e d t h is e m a i l – s e n t t h i s e m a il t o t h e c o m m is s i o n . I t s a y s :
“ G o o d d a y. I t i s a d d r e s s e d t o m y s e l f a n d t o Ms [i n d i s ti n c t ] I r e f e r t o t h e
m a t t e r. I w a s –
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C h a ir ?
ADV NORMAN: Page 5 I beg your pardon.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: T h is t h a t y o u h a v e h a s 4 – i t e n d s
with page 4.
10

ADV NORMAN: It does not have page 5?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I t d o e s n o t h a v e th e – p a g e 5

s o r r y.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u . M a y I j u s t r e a d in t o t h e r e c o r d M i n i s t e r ? I
am sorry I am sure it was in – copy notes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e r e n o s p a r e c o p y o f p a g e 5 ?
ADV NORMAN:

N o u n f o r t u n a t e ly t h e r e w e r e o n ly th r e e C h a ir.

three.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s b u t . .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e w ill r e a d t h e w h o l e …
A D V N O R M A N : W e w il l m a k e i t a v a il a b l e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .

Page 27 of 153

O n ly

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
ADV NORMAN: Thank you. Page 5 she says:
“ G o o d d a y.
C h a ir p e r s o n

I r e f e r to th e a b o v e m a t t e r. I w a s t h e
in

the

d is c i p li n a r y

hearing

of

A m b a s s a d o r V B K o l o a n e in 2 0 0 9 . I w a s c o n ta c t e d b y
the

Department

of

In t e r n a t i o n a l

R e l a ti o n s

and

C o o p e r a t io n ’s s o m e ti m e i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 s e e k in g
m is s i n g p a g e s , p a g e 6 a n d p a g e 8 o f th e s a n c ti o n . I
d i d c o n fir m t o – I t h in k s h e m e a n t t o s a y t o t h e
d e p a r t m e n t t h a t u n f o r tu n a te ly I d o n o t h a v e t h e
10

document anymore.

M y o ff ic e w a s u s i n g a d i ffe r e n t

s y s te m t h e n a n d I d o n o t h a v e th e fi le a n y m o r e .

I

was also contacted by Mr Mblambo several times
fr o m t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d I in f o r m e d h i m t h a t I d o n o t
h a v e t h e fi le a n y m o r e .

Regards.

A d v o c a te M B

M a t le jw a n e . ”
A n d t h e n C h a ir w o u ld o b s e r v e th a t p a g e 4 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Is a n – c o n s i s t s o f e m a il s – m a y b e I s h o u l d – C h a i r i f
y o u w o u l d l e t m e p le a s e s t a r t fr o m p a g e 1 ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : B e c a u s e t h e n th a t – t h a t i s a fl o w o f e m a i ls f r o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s .

P a g e 1 i t i s a n e m a il fr o m Mr P a t M l a m b o t o

m y s e l f f o r my i n f o r m a ti o n o f – h e h a d f o r w a r d e d a l l t h e e m a i ls .

We

r e q u e s t e d h i m t o f o r w a r d a ll t h e e m a i ls in r e la t io n t o th is m a t t e r w h i c h

Page 28 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
h e fo r w a r d e d y e s t e r d a y.

B u t th e n b e l o w t h a t t h e r e is a n e m a il w h ic h

w a s s e n t o n t h e 1 4 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 a t 1 7 m i n u t e s p a s t 8 to th e A d v o c a t e
J o i n e y w h o is a l e g a l a d v i s o r w i th in t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f D I R C O . I w a s
c o p i e d a n d t h e s u b j e c t – i t w a s fr o m M r P a t M l a m b o t h e i n v e s ti g a to r.
A n d t h e s u b j e c t w a s R e A m b a s s a d o r V B K o l o a n e ’s s a n c ti o n .
“ M o r n in g Al l . I d id g e t h o ld o f A d v o c a t e M a t le jw a n e
ju s t n o w a n d s h e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t t h e y a r e s ti ll
tr y i n g t o fi n d th e d o c u m e n t w h ic h u n f o r t u n a t e l y a n d
h e p u ts i n b r a c k e ts [ a n d m y s t e r i o u s l y ] is m is s i n g
10

fr o m h e r f il e . A l s o th a t i t h a s s i n c e b e e n a w h i le th a t
s h e p r e s i d e d o v e r t h e m a t te r a n d i n th e p r o c e s s s h e
h a s s i n c e h a d a n e w PA . I t h e r e f o r e a d v i s e t h a t y o u
[i n d is t in c t] t h i s i n t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h a t s h e c o u l d
n o t fi n d t h e m is s in g p a g e s o f t h e s a n c ti o n i n s t e a d o f
ju s t a t e l e p h o n ic d is c u s s io n a b o u t i t . S h e u n d e r t o o k
to do so as advised.

Th e fo ll o w i n g is th e e m a i l

a d d r e s s s h e p r o v i d e d f o r fu t u r e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . ”
T h e n C h a ir t h e n e x t p a g e , p a g e 2 , i t is a n e m a i l f r o m A d v o c a te J o y i n i
fr o m - fr o m D IR C O . I t is d a t e d 1 3 A u g u s t 1 5 - a t 1 5 : 1 6 .
20

“ D e a r A d v o c a te N o r m a n , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r
y o u r g u id a n c e . M u c h a p p r e c i a te d . ”
A n d t h e n i n t h e r e I h a d s e n t a n e m a il to A d v o c a t e J o y i n i o n
1 3 A u g u s t.
“ D e a r A m b a s s a d o r, t h a n k y o u fo r y o u r r e s p o n s e . I
s u g g e s t t h a t y o u e s c a l a te t h e m a t t e r t o th e D G ,

Page 29 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
b e c a u s e M r P u ti h is n o t r e s p o n d i n g .

If that does

n o t w o r k D I R C O m u s t w r i t e t o t h e P r e s i d i n g O ff ic e r
a n d r e q u e s t a c o p y o f th e s a n c ti o n . ”
S o t h e r e s p o n s e s t h a t w e a r e g e tt i n g a r e - is a r e s u lt o f t h a t
e ffo r t a n d t h e n - t h e n a g a i n o n Tu e s d a y o n 1 3 A u g u s t A d v o c a te J o y i n i
wrote to me.
“ D e a r A d v o c a te N o r m a n , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r
y o u r e m a il . O u r L a b o u r R e l a t i o n s S e c t io n h a s b e e n
tr y i n g s i n c e J u ly, t h e 3 1 s t .
10

S e e t h e e m a ils b e l o w

dated 31 Augus t, the 2nd and 5 Augus t.

Yo u r

g u i d a n c e w i ll b e h i g h ly a p p r e c i a te d . ”
T h e r e is a n e m a il C h a ir t h a t i s d a t e d 3 1 A u g u s t .

The date

r e fl e c ts a t p a g e 2 a n d i f C h a ir tu r n s t o p a g e 3 th a t is t h e s u b j e c t
A m b a s s a d o r V B K o l o a n e ’s

sanction.

Th a t

e m a il

is

fr o m

M r J e ff r e y M a m a b o lo D ir e c to r L a b o u r R e la t io n s . T h is is w h a t s h e s a i d .
“ D e a r Mr P u t ih , o u r c o n v e r s a ti o n e a r li e r r e fe r s .
Attached

herewith

is

A m b a s s a d o r V B K o lo a n e ’s

s a n c ti o n a s d is c u s s e d . Yo u w i ll n o ti c e t h a t p a g e s 6
a n d e ig h t a r e m is s i n g .
20

for the said pages.

Hence my humble request

Yo u r a s s is ta n c e w il l b e h i g h ly

a p p r e c ia t e d . ”
A n d t h e n i t is f o l lo w e d b y a n o t h e r e m a il o n 2 A u g u s t .
“ D e a r M r P u ti h … ”
T h i s o n e is fr o m M r M a m a b o lo a g a i n .
“Dear

Mr P u t ih ,

the

e m a il

Page 30 of 153

b e fo r e

and

our

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
subsequent
reminded

to

c o n v e r s a t io n
check

for

r e fe r s .
pages

6

Pl e a s e
and

be

eight of

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e ’s s a n c t io n . T h a n k s v e r y m u c h
in a d v a n c e . ”
A n d t h e n a g a i n o n 5 A u g u s t Mr M a m a b o l o w r o t e .
“ P l e a s e b e i n fo r m e d t h a t I tr ie d t o c a ll y o u r o ffi c e s
t h is m o r n i n g w it h o u t a n y s u c c e s s . I j u s t w a n t e d t o
f o ll o w u p i f w h e t h e r y o u m a n a g e d t o l o c a te t h e
m is s i n g p a g e s a s p e r m y r e q u e s t b e lo w.

Yo u r

r e s p o n s e w o u ld b e g r e a tly a p p r e c i a te d . ”

10

S o t h e s e e ff o r ts C h a ir s ta r t e d w a y b a c k i n J u l y a s s o o n a s a ft e r th e h e a r in g s o f t h e - o f th e e v i d e n c e o f th e w i tn e s s e s t h a t r e l a t e d
t o th e W a te r k l o o f, b u t C h a ir w e h a v e t a k e n f u r t h e r s t e p s n o w t o
a p p r o a c h t h e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s o f A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e . U n f o r tu n a t e ly a t
the

hearing

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e

was

not

represented,

but

was

r e p r e s e n t e d b y L a b o u r R e la t io n s .
T h a t - t h a t is w h a t th e r e c o r d s h o w s , b u t w e h a v e d i r e c t ly
n o w m a d e c o n t a c t w i t h h i s c u r r e n t a tt o r n e y s o r a t l e a s t th o s e t h a t
r e p r e s e n t e d h i m b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n . T h e y h a v e in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e ir
20

d o c u m e n ts a r e in - t h e y h a v e b e e n a r c h i v e d a n d t h a t t h e y w i ll l o o k f o r
t h a t . T h e y w il l r e s p o n d t o th e C o m m i s s io n b y M o n d a y n e x t w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th a n k y o u . T h e n M i n is t e r - t h e n y o u

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
t h e n r e c e i v e t h e s a n c t i o n a n d y o u - y o u - w h a t is th e s t e p s t h e n th a t
you took?

W e r e y o u s a t is fi e d w i t h t h e s a n c ti o n a n d t h e n i f y o u w e r e

t h e n w h a t s te p s d i d y o u t a k e ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W e ll t h e s te p s I t o o k w a s t o

i m m e d i a t e ly r e m o v e - r e m e m b e r h i m fr o m - A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e fr o m
being - since - since the saga started we shifted him, but we then made
s u r e th a t h e d o e s n o t g o b a c k t o Pr o t o c o l .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
10

When he came back after the

s a n c ti o n h e w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d w h e n y o u s a y a f te r t h e s a n c ti o n y o u m e a n
a ft e r t h e s u s p e n s i o n ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: After the suspension.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

After

he

had

served

th e

suspension.
CHAIRPERSON: The two months?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
20

Ye s .

H e w a s s i t ti n g i n t h e D G ’s

o ffic e l ik e r e a ll y li t e r a l ly - w e c o u l d n o t d e m o te h i m .

He is the DDG.

H e is s i t ti n g i n t h e D G ’s o ffic e d o i n g m a n u a l w o r k t h a t a D ir e c to r c o u l d
d o f o r a l l th e ti m e p e r io d b e f o r e w e h a d t o g e t - g e t h i m g a i n fu ll y - y e s ,
b e c a u s e s a l a r ie s - s a l a r y w a s p a id a t t h a t D D G l e v e l .
H e h a d g o n e th r o u g h t h i s - t h e - th e d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s . H e
is b a c k i n t e r m s o f la b o u r l a w s .

S o h e n e v e r w e n t b a c k to w h e r e h e

Page 32 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
w a s - h e w a s s e r v i n g b e f o r e a s i t i s s u g g e s te d t h a t h e s h o u l d n o t i n
y o u r - i n th e d o c u m e n ts h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I n t h e - i n th e c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g t h a t h e s h o u ld n o t g o b a c k t o t h e p o s i t io n t h a t h e
was in.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a n t t o ju s t - I w a n t to g o b a c k t o t h e - t o p a r a g r a p h
11 o f t h a t r u li n g , b u t b e f o r e t h a t I w a n t t o c o n fir m t h a t y o u - y o u d i d
u n d e r s t a n d a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t o r a s t h e M in is te r a t t h e ti m e t h a t a s f a r
10

a s t h e s a n c ti o n f o r h is c o n d u c t w a s c o n c e r n e d .

It was only the

s u s p e n s i o n f o r t w o m o n t h s w i th o u t p a y …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e fi n a l w r it t e n w a r n i n g
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t is a l l th a t y o u w e r e r e q u ir e d t o d o to c o m p ly w i th
t h e s a n c ti o n .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t o o d th a t p a r t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e n t h e r e w a s t h i s o th e r p a r t w h i c h m a y b e -

lo o k s l ik e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n . I ju s t w a n t t o r e a d i t a g a i n . I n p a r a g r a p h
11 o f h e r r u l e - i t w a s a “ h e r ” it w a s a “ s h e ” M s N o r m a n ?
C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e d is c ip li n a r y h e a r in g .
A D V N O R M A N : I t w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s a la d y ?

Page 33 of 153

The

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : A la d y C h a ir. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: She says:
“ B a s e d o n my c o n s i d e r a t io n o f th e f a c ts b o th
p a r t i e s a g g r a v a t i n g a n d m i ti g a t in g fa c to r s I s tr o n g l y
r e c o m m e n d t h a t t h e e m p l o y e r s e r io u s ly c o n s id e r
r e d e p l o y i n g A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e to a n o t h e r b r a n c h
in o r d e r to r e v i v e t h e c o n f i d e n c e , i n t e g r i t y a n d
e ffic i e n c y o f S t a t e P r o to c o l . ”

10

W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f th is r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t h e

s h o u l d - b e c a u s e w e w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d in t h e l a n d i n g o f a n
a ir c r a f t s o m e w h e r e i f i t w a s n o t th a t h e h a d p u t h i m s e l f t h e r e a s - a s
P r o t o c o l . S o t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n I u n d e r s t o o d i t t o m e a n t h a t - e x a c t ly
that.
H e e r r e d b y b e in g - b y p u t ti n g h i m s e l f w h e r e h e s h o u l d n o t
h a v e a n d - a n d p u t t in g th e i n te g r i ty o f S t a te P r o t o c o l in a p r e c a r i o u s
s i tu a ti o n . Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t w h a t y o u w e r e

o b li g e d t o d o w a s to p u t h i m o n s u s p e n s i o n w i th o u t p a y f o r tw o m o n th s
…
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h a v e a fi n a l w r i t t e n w a r n i n g o n h i s f il e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.

Page 34 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u l d b e t h e r e f o r - t h a t w o u ld b e v a l id f o r s ix
m o n th s …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t t h e r e w a s a ls o a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h w h ic h y o u w e r e n o t o b li g e d t o c o m p l y …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h ic h y o u c o u l d c o n s i d e r i n y o u r o w n w a y a n d

s e e w h e th e r y o u w o u l d g o w i t h i t o r n o t. Wa s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g ?
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Ye s .

Th a t

-

as

a

former

Ambassador …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: I understood that …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : P r o t o c o l is P r o t o c o l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: So I took even the para before - 12
- i n t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n . T h a t is w h y h e n e v e r r e t u r n e d b a c k t o b e i n g t h e t o P r o t o c o l a n d e v e n w h e n h e c a m e b a c k a s m u c h a s h e w a s s ti ll a t t h e
20

le v e l o f a D G G , b e c a u s e t h a t is n o w a - t h a t i s a p o s i ti o n y o u a p p l y a n
g e t a p p o i n t e d f o r.
H e c o u ld n o t g o b a c k t o th a t a n d I w a s c o n v in c e d - lik e I s a i d .
A s a f o r m e r A m b a s s a d o r t h a t P r o t o c o l is t o b e r e s p e c te d a s P r o t o c o l.
Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I u n d e r s t a n d th a t p a r t, b u t I j u s t w a n t t o

Page 35 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: At the time.

N a m e ly th a t a s f a r a s w h a t a p p e a r s in

p a r a g r a p h 11 is c o n c e r n e d .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t t a k e t h a t o r d id y o u a s b i n d i n g u p o n y o u
t o d o w h a t i s s a i d t h e r e . Yo u - y o u t o o k i t a s a s u g g e s ti o n a n d y o u h a d
t o e v a lu a t e a n d s e e i f y o u w e n t a l o n g w it h i t . W h e r e a s w i t h r e g a r d to
in - w h a t i s in p a r a g r a p h 1 2 p u t ti n g h i m o n s u s p e n s i o n w it h o u t p a y f o r
10

t w o m o n th s a n d a - a fi n a l w r i t t e n w a r n i n g w h e t h e r t h a t is w h a t y o u
took

as

o b li g a t o r y

upon

you,

but

the

other

one

as

a

s u g g e s t io n /r e c o m m e n d a t i o n w h ic h y o u h a d t o w e i g h a n d s e e i f y o u
w e r e g o i n g a l o n g w it h i t .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d i d y o u t a k e a ll o f t h e m a s o b l ig a to r y ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

C h a ir, I - I t o o k 1 2 a s o b l ig a t o r y.

Ye s , b u t I f u r th e r to o k a d v ic e fr o m p a r a g r a p h 11 , b e c a u s e w e d i d n o t - I
d i d n o t s e n d h i m b a c k t o t h e p o s i t io n o f C h i e f o f S t a t e Pr o to c o l . As t h e
paragraph says.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u - y o u to o k p a r a g r a p h 11 a s a d v i c e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s , s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t o o k p a r a g r a p h 1 2 a s o b li g a to r y ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s , s ir.

Page 36 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d t h e n i f - my c a lc u la t io n t h e n
if o n e i n t e r p r e t s t h a t s a n c ti o n w o u l d b e th a t b e c a u s e t h e s a n c t io n w a s
d a t e d 2 9 J u l y 2 0 1 3 . T h e n a n d t h e w r i t t e n w a r n i n g p a r t w h ic h a p p e a r s
a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 - 1 2 .2 - w o u ld h a v e e x p i r e d o n - i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 . T h a t
s ix m o n th p e r i o d .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s .

S o t h e n a t t h e e x p ir y o f th a t s i x m o n t h s p e r io d

then what happened?
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e ll …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh Ms Norman do you …
A D V N O R M A N : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t w a n t h e r to d e a l w i t h w h a t h a p p e n e d - w h ic h s h e
h a s s t a r te d d e a li n g w i t h - w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n t h e s u s p e n s i o n p e r i o d
o f t w o m o n t h s e x p ir e d .
ADV NORMAN: Oh, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e s t a r t e d d e a li n g w i th it …
ADV NORMAN: Oh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I d o n o t t h i n k s h e h a d c o m p l e te d .

20

ADV NORMAN: Oh, yes. When …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k I i n te r r u p t e d h e r e w h e n s h e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t
that.
A D V N O R M A N : A b o u t - o h , t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .

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CHAIRPERSON: Maybe let us - let us go back to saying how did you
e ffe c t t h e s a n c ti o n th a t s a y s - th a t s a i d h e s h o u l d b e o n s u s p e n s i o n
w i t h o u t p a y f o r tw o m o n t h s ?

H o w d i d y o u e ff e c t th a t ?

How was that

e ffe c te d o r i m p le m e n t e d a t a p r a c ti c a l l e v e l?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W e ll a t a p r a c tic a l l e v e l i t h a d t o

b e t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y a s p e r m y i n s tr u c t i o n t o t h e o ff ic i a ls t h a t a r e
r e s p o n s i b l e fo r u n d e r t a k in g s u c h ta s k s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o - d o y o u k n o w h o w i t w a s e ff e c t e d a t a p r a c t ic a l

le v e l o r is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u c o n v e y e d a n i n s tr u c t io n a s t o w h a t
10

s h o u l d h a p p e n , b u t y o u d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r i t d i d h a p p e n ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I tr u s t th a t i t d i d - i t d i d h a p p e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w f o r s u r e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e ll I n e v e r g o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e p o r t?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A r e p o r t th a t s a y s i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It d i d n o t h a p p e n .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : D id n o t h a p p e n .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u a ls o d i d n o t g e t a r e p o r t t o s a y M i n i s t e r w e

h a v e g i v e n e ffe c t t o th e s a n c ti o n . T h is is w h a t h a p p e n e d .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h e r e p o r t o f g iv i n g e ff e c t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Was verbal and it was …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Conveyed to me …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B y th e n - t h e t h e n D G .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e s u s p e n s i o n p a r t o f t h e

s a n c ti o n is t h a t h e w a s - t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s r e q u ir e d t o - n o t to a l lo w
10

h i m t o b e a t w o r k f o r - fo r t w o m o n th s a n d n o t t o p a y h i m f o r th a t p e r i o d
of two months.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is - is t h a t - is - w a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s w e l l?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d to t h e e x t e n t th a t y o u m a y h a v e g i v e n

in s t r u c t i o n s t o o ffic i a ls . T h e in s tr u c ti o n w o u ld h a v e b e e n a l o n g t h o s e
li n e s ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
20

A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s
t h a t p a r t t h a t C h a ir h a s j u s t a s k e d a p p e a r s a t p a g e s 3 8 t o 4 0 o f t h e
s a m e b u n d le . M i n is t e r i f y o u c o u l d j u s t t u r n t o p a g e 3 8 . T h e r e is a - a
m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l w h ic h - w h i c h i s a p p r o v e d . T h a t
r e l a t e s to t h e s a n c ti o n w it h o u t p a y. I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h is i s th e
answer …

Page 39 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : T h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n t o t h e - t o th e …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V N O R M A N : C h a ir p e r s o n .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s .

P a g e s 3 8 a n d 3 9 C h a ir a n d i t is s i g n e d b y t h e

D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l a n d th a t s i g n a t u r e a p p e a r s a t p a g e 3 9 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h a t is a m e m o . I s it f r o m t h e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s
U n i t o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o th e D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l …
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To a p p r o v e i m p l e m e n ta t i o n o f t h e s u s p e n s io n w it h o u t
pay sanction?
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A lr i g h t .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

20

A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . T h e n - t h e n M in is t e r t h e n t h a t is t h e f ir s t p a r t o f th e s a n c t i o n . T h e n t h e s e c o n d p a r t w a s t h e
written warning part …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

A n d th e n i f y o u g o b a c k .

w o u ld h a v e e x p ir e d i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 .

Page 40 of 153

T h e n th a t w r i t t e n w a r n in g

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . H o w d o e s i t w o r k p r a c ti c a ll y i n - i n c iv i l s e r v ic e ?
I f t h e r e h a s b e e n a w r it t e n w a r n i n g …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
A D V N O R M A N : A n d t h e n t h a t p e r i o d c o m e s . I t - i t e x p ir e s . D o e s th a t
m e a n t h a t i t i s e x p u n g e d c o m p l e te ly fr o m t h e r e c o r d s ?

H o w d o e s it

work?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A s i t i s s t a te d i n th e s a n c ti o n . H e
says:
10

“ I t s h a ll r e m a in in t h e p e r s o n a l fil e . ”
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

So it means at the end of that

p e r i o d i t s h o u ld n o l o n g e r - i t - i t is r e n d e r e d h a v in g b e e n r e m o v e d f r o m
t h e f il e o r b e c a u s e it - e v e n i f i t r e m a in s t h e r e c o r d , b u t i t - i t c e a s e s t o
b e c o m e w h a t - y o u k n o w it s t a t e s a s - g e ts …
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: (Intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u - y o u d o n o t g i v e - y o u t h e n - y o u d o n o t p a y

a tt e n ti o n t o i t a ft e r th e e x p ir y o f t h e p e r io d .
20

Is - is th a t y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e ll t h a t i s w h a t l a b o u r l a w - w e w e f o l lo w la b o u r l a w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o . I …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n d e r s ta n d , b u t I a m j u s t w a n ti n g t o u n d e r s t a n d y o u r

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o w n u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t i t m e a n s to s a y it h a s e x p ir e d . Is i t t h a t y o u
d o n o t t a k e - y o u d o n o t p a y a t te n ti o n t o i t a ft e r it h a s e x p ir e d ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B e c a u s e t h e n I th i n k t h e l a w

a d v is e s s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W e ll …
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e t i m e s t h e r e a r e a ll k in d s o f i n t e r p r e t a ti o n s o f t h e
10

la w, b u t I d o n o t t h i n k i t is n e c e s s a r y f o r u s t o b o th e r a b o u t th a t p a r t .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . C h a ir. T h e n M i n is t e r a t p a g e
- i f y o u g o b a c k t o y o u r s ta t e m e n t n o w. T h a n k y o u . A t p a g e - i n - i n
paragraph

4

o f y o u r s t a te m e n t A m b a s s a d o r M a tj il a

did

give

the

C h a ir p e r s o n a b a c k g r o u n d to t h e p r o c e s s , b u t w e w o u ld l ik e t o
u n d e r s t a n d th e p r o c e s s a t m i n is t e r ia l l e v e l w h e n a p e r s o n is t o b e
p o s te d n o w a s - a s a n A m b a s s a d o r a n d - a n d t h e c o n s id e r a ti o n th a t y o u
w o u ld h a v e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t in d e a li n g w it h A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e .
20

C o u ld y o u j u s t g iv e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h o w d o e s t h e w h o le
is s u e o f v a c a n c i e s t h a t y o u m a k e m e n t io n o f i n p a r a g r a p h 5 - h o w d o e s
t h a t h a p p e n a n d w h a t d o y o u m e a n b y t h e c y c le t h a t y o u m a k e
r e fe r e n c e t o i n b o t h p a r a g r a p h s 4 a n d f iv e .
that process.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O k a y.

Page 42 of 153

If y o u c o u ld j u s t e x p l a i n

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON: I am going to interrupt you Ms Norman.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry about that.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: But I think let us before we get there …
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t u s g e t th e y c o m p le t e p i c t u r e o f w h a t w a s

h a p p e n in g w i t h r e g a r d to M r K o l o a n e fr o m th e ti m e h e c a m e b a c k a f te r
t h e e x p ir y o f t h e t w o m o n t h s o f s u s p e n s i o n to …
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: (Intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

The time when you recommended that he

appointed as Ambassador for The Netherlands.

be

Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y

s t a r t e d - y o u h a d a lr e a d y s ta r t e d s a y i n g h e w a s s it t in g i n t h e D G ’s
o ffic e d o in g w o r k th a t a D ir e c t o r c o u ld d o , b u t b e in g p a i d a t th e l e v e l o f
D e p u ty D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th a t is a ll y o u w a n t e d t o

c o n v e y a s t o w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g w i th h i m d u r in g th a t ti m e . I j u s t w a n t
t o m a k e s u r e t h a t i f t h e r e i s m o r e y o u w a n t t o t e ll m e i n r e g a r d t o w h a t
20

w a s h a p p e n i n g . Yo u - y o u a r e a b l e to t e l l m e t h e f u l l s to r y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

T h e a n s w e r C h a ir is y e s , b u t h e

a ls o s h o w c o n t r i ti o n , b e c a u s e o u r s w a s t o o b s e r v e h i m a s h e w a s
s i tt i n g w h e r e h e w a s s i tt i n g . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e g o in g b a c k - o n e s t e p b a c k . W i t h r e g a r d
t o t h e r e s u l t o f t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s d id y o u g e t t o k n o w - I m e a n

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
y o u t o l d m e t h a t y o u g o t t o k n o w w h a t th e s a n c ti o n w a s . D i d y o u g e t to
k n o w t h a t h e h a d p l e a d e d g u i l ty t o th r e e c h a r g e s a n d to - d i d y o u g e t t o
k n o w w h a t th o s e c h a r g e s w e r e ? D i d y o u s e e t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d a l l
o f t h a t a t th a t t i m e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I d id , b u t I d o n o t - I c a n n o t r e c a ll
e a c h - w h a t - w h a t w e r e t h e y, b u t I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : R e m e m b e r th a t I s a w it .
CHAIRPERSON: At that time you - you …
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u i n f o r m e d y o u r s e l f f u l ly …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d a t th e d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m ig h t n o t b e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r n o w, b u t a t t h a t

ti m e …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u i n f o r m e d y o u r s e l f f u l ly ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I ta k e it t h a t y o u w o u l d t h e n h a v e s e e n th a t h e
p l e a d e d g u i l ty to t h r e e c h a r g e s …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h o s e c h a r g e s - Ms N o r m a n …
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. T h e p a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k I w o u ld lik e u s to r e fe r t o th e m .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
ADV NORMAN:

To - t o t h e m .

I w il l g i v e y o u th e p a g e n o w C h a ir.

S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON: They - they must be the same …
A D V N O R M A N : T h e y a p p e a r a t p a g e 2 5 o f th e s a m e b u n d l e .
CHAIRPERSON: I was on …
A D V N O R M A N : I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. P a g e 5 o f t h e - y e s . P a g e 5 .
I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . W h a t a p p e a r s a t 2 5 is … ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is o f F F 3 ?
A D V N O R M A N : O f F F 3 . Th a t i s c o r r e c t.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Page 5?
A D V N O R M A N : P a g e 5 . C h a ir, y e s . P a g e 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e - h a v e y o u g o t th a t p a g e … ?
A D V N O R M A N : M i n i s te r. D o y o u h a v e th e p a g e M i n is te r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M in is t e r.
ADV NORMAN: The relevant - page 5 on top.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b u n d l e t h a t h a d th e r u l in g o f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I h a v e s ix . I h a v e s ix .
CHAIRPERSON: Of the
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I h a v e fo u r - fi v e . Ye s .

20

A D V N O R M A N : Yo u d o n o t h a v e fi v e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : N o . I h a v e f o u r.
A D V N O R M A N : T h e r e i s s o m e t h in g w r o n g w i t h y o u r b u n d le .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S ix - s e v e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I t h i n k m a y b e s o m e b o d y s a b o t a g i n g y o u M in is t e r.
A D V N O R M A N : O h . Yo u c a n d o t h a t . Th a n k y o u . C h a i r th a t o n e t h a t

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M i n is t e r - c o u n s e l is g iv in g is - is t h e C o m m is s i o n ’s b u n d l e , b u t i t is a n
actual bundle.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y - m a y b e l e t u s d o t h is , b e c a u s e i t is o u r - w e a r e
a b o u t t o r e a c h t h e t i m e fo r t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W i ll s o m e b o d y ju s t m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e M in is t e r h a s

got …
10

A D V N O R M A N : T h e fu ll s e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s a m e d o c u m e n t s a n d b u n d l e s th a t w e h a v e …
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And that she has all the same pages.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: We must not have pages that she does not have …
A D V N O R M A N : T h a t s h e d o e s n o t h a v e . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And so on.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

S o w e t a k e th e - t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t f iv e m i n u t e s

e a r ly. S o th a t th is c a n b e s o r te d o u t .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t i s a b o u t n in e m i n u t e s p a s t n o w.

r e s u m e a t 2 5 p a s t 11 .
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: So that that can be sorted out …

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We are going to

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : W e w il l d o i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y b e I w i ll m a k e it h a l f p a s t, b e c a u s e t h e r e mi g h t
b e t i m e t o s o r t th a t o u t a n d y o u m u s t h a v e ti m e …
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r t h e t e a - f o r t e a .
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
10

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w e r e l o o k in g a t t h e c h a r g e s . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
ADV NORMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
I t h i n k I w il l p r e fe r t o g o to t h e r u li n g o f th e

C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e D is c ip li n a r y I n q u ir y . .. [ i n te r v e n e s ]
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e s h e a ls o r e p e a t e d w h a t th e c h a r g e s a r e .
ADV NORMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s C h a ir.
W h a t th e c h a r g e s w e r e , I th i n k t h a t a p p e a r s , o r t h e

c h a r g e s h e e t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 7 M in is t e r, c a n y o u s e e p a g e 7 ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I w a n t t o g o . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
ADV NORMAN:

T h a t w o u l d b e p a g e 2 6 C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: 26.
ADV NORMAN:

26 yes.

Page 47 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y l e t’s g o t o p a g e 2 6 , y e s t h a t i s t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n ’s r u l i n g , i t s t a r ts a t p a g e 2 5 .
ADV NORMAN:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u a b l e t o fi n d i t M i n is t e r ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, p le a s e s w i tc h o n y o u r m ic s o w h a t e v e r y o u
are saying can be recorded.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s C h a ir, t h a n k y o u .

O k a y, n o w t h e r e p r e s e n t a t iv e o f t h e e m p l o y e r a t t h e

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g i s r e c o r d e d a s h a v i n g b e e n D r H M M a n z i n i, w o u l d
t h a t b e a p e r s o n th a t y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n a t th e ti m e , o r n o t r e a ll y ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

N o r r e a ll y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, a lr i g h t .

N o w a t p a g e 2 6 t h e c h a ir p e r s o n o f

t h e d i s c i p li n a r y i n q u ir y r e c o r d s t h a t t h e c h a r g e s w e r e a s f o ll o w s .
C h a r g e o n e , i t i s a l le g e d t h a t d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d F e b r u a r y
2 0 1 3 to A p r il 2 0 1 3 th e e m p l o y e e , th a t is M r K o l o a n e a b u s e d
d i p l o m a t ic c h a n n e l s a n d t o o k i t u p o n h i m s e l f t o fa c i li t a te a n
ill e g a l r e q u e s t f o r la n d i n g o f a n i n te r n a t io n a l a ir c r a ft a t t h e
A ir F o r c e B a s e W a t e r k l o o f o n t h e 3 0 t h o f A p r il 2 0 1 3 b e t w e e n
20

6 h 5 0 a n d 7 h 0 0 in t h e m o r n i n g .
C h a r g e Tw o , it is a l le g e d t h a t t h e e m p l o y e e m i s r e p r e s e n te d
f a c ts i n a n e n d e a v o u r t o p r o c u r e t h e i ll e g a l a n d u n l a w f u l
a n d / o r w r o n g fu l l a n d in g .
C h a r g e T h r e e , t h e e m p lo y e e c o m p r o m i s e d th e p r o c e s s e s a n d
p r o c e d u r e s o f h i s e m p lo y e r i n t h a t 1 4 . 1 t h e r e w a s n o r e v i e w

Page 48 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
and/or

r e c o m m e n d a t io n

from

the

p o l i ti c a l

desk

in

the

d e p a r t m e n t o n th is p a r ti c u l a r r e q u e s t a n d 1 4 .2 th e i n t e r d e p a r t m e n ta l c o o r d in a ti o n p r o c e s s t h a t n o r m a l ly e n s u e s d i d
n o t t a k e p la c e .
Those were the three charges.

N o w t h a t I’v e r e a d t h e m a n d

y o u h a v e l o o k e d a t th e m d o e s t h a t a c c o r d – d o t h e y a c c o r d w i th w h a t
y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e c h a r g e s t o h a v e b e e n ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s s ir.

Ye s o k a y a lr ig h t , m a y b e i f y o u c a n g iv e y o u r a n s w e r

in s u c h a w a y th a t c a n b e r e c o r d e d a n d h e a r d , i t a c c o r d s w i t h w h a t y o u
understood the charges to have been?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s ir.

O k a y, a lr ig h t . T h e a c t u a l r u li n g w o u l d y o u – d o y o u

remember whether it was – it may have been part or was part of the
d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u d id s e e a t t h e e n d o f t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s . T h i s
p a r t ic u l a r r u li n g b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t w e a r e lo o k i n g
a t n o w, d o y o u r e c a ll w h e t h e r i t w a s p a r t o f t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u s a w
that may have been given to you to apprise you of what happened at
t h e d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s ?
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

Yo u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r ?

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

I r e m e m b e r b u t I d o k n o w th a t t h e

p r o c e s s e s o f t h e w o r k t h a t is d o n e b y p r o f e s s io n a l s i t ’s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly
w h a t th e e x e c u ti n g a u th o r i ty s h o u l d b e c h a s i n g o n a d a ily b a s is
b e c a u s e y o u e n d u p n o t p r o v i d i n g p r o p e r le a d e r s h i p a n d i t’s – t h e

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
e m p l o y e r, n u m b e r o n e f o r a ll t h e o ffi c i a l s in t h e D e p a r t m e n t is t h e D G ,
t h e e x e c u t in g a u th o r i ty is t h e p o li t ic a l h e a d .

S o I f o c u s e d o n my

p o li t ic a l w o r k a n d i f I n e e d s o m e th in g t h r o u g h t h e p r o c e s s e s o f t h e , y o u
k n o w, a d m in is tr a ti o n th e n I s h o u l d a s k p r o p e r ly s o th a t w e a r e i n o r d e r,
t h a n k y o u s ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g , y o u

k n o w fo r m e p a r t o f w h a t I w a n t t o g a i n fr o m y o u r e v id e n c e is t h e
b e n e fi t o f w h a t y o u k n e w a n d w h a t y o u d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t t h is
Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d in g i n c id e n t a n d A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a s a t t h e t i m e
10

w h e n y o u m a d e th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t y o u m a d e . S o I ’ m a s k in g t h e
q u e s t io n w h e t h e r y o u r e c a ll w h e t h e r y o u d i d s e e t h is d o c u m e n t o r y o u
m i g h t n o t h a v e s e e n th e d o c u m e n t b u t y o u k n e w i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e s
a b o u t i t , m a y b e b e c a u s e y o u w e r e t o l d in a m e m o o r m a y b e y o u w e r e
t o l d v e r b a ll y o r is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r y o u d id
s e e i t o r y o u d i d n ’ t s e e i t?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I m i g h t h a v e s e e n i t b e c a u s e i t’s

2013.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s it ’s a lo n g ti m e b u t t h a t ’s w h y I’ m a s k in g s o t h a t

I k n o w i f y o u s a y n o I d e fi n i t e ly s a w i t a n d I r e a d o r s a y, lo o k I’ m n o t
20

sure whether I saw it or not but I think somebody may have sent a
m e m o t o a p p r is e m e o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d o r s o m e b o d y g a v e m e a
verbal report and I understood what I needed to know about the
p r o c e s s f o r p u r p o s e s o f m y d e c is io n s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

C h a ir, lik e I s a id e a r li e r o n I tr i e d

t o d is c h a r g e m y d u t i e s a s fa r a s I u n d e r s t o o d w h a t m y r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
w e r e o n a d a il y b a s is u n ti l I l e f t t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:
MINISTER

Ye s , y e s .

N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

T h a t ’s

whey

even

when

I

o v e r h e a r d a b o u t t h is – o u r in v o lv e m e n t in a n o t h e r s p a c e , I i m m e d ia t e l y
w a n t e d t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i t w a s b u t o n w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g o n d a i ly
b a s is

fr o m t h a t d a y t il l I l e f t t w o y e a r s a g o I w o u ld

not be

…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e ’s l o ts o f t h in g s y o u m ig h t n o t r e m e m b e r ?

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

J a , n o th a t I u n d e r s t a n d b u t i t ’s i m p o r t a n t th a t I k n o w

w h a t y o u r e m e m b e r a n d w h a t y o u d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e I d o n ’t w a n t
to assume that you knew certain things because you were Minister of
t h e D e p a r t m e n t w h e n in f a c t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e k n o w n th e m . S o t h a t
is w h y i t ’s i m p o r t a n t t o f in d o u t w h a t y o u m ig h t h a v e k n o w n a n d w h a t
y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e k n o w n .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M a y b e w h a t w e ’l l d o – w e s h o u l d d o Ms N o r m a n ,

m a y b e le t ’s c o n t i n u e w h e n w e t a lk a b o u t t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n w e mi g h t
have to come back to what the charges are and what happened
20

b e c a u s e I p r e fe r th a t w e w il l g o th r o u g h s y s te m a t ic a l ly b u t m a y b e w e
c a n j u m p , l e t’s h a v e th a t a n d t h e n w e c a n c o m e b a c k to i t.
ADV NORMAN:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

A lr ig h t .

ADV NORMAN:

T h a n k y o u , m i n is te r y o u w e r e a t t h e p o in t w h e r e y o u

were

just

going

to

b r i e fl y

explain

the

Page 51 of 153

process

of

p o s ti n g

of

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A m b a s s a d o r s a n d w h o d o e s t h e M in is t e r c o n s u lt a n d h o w d o e s th a t
process happen.

S o t h i s is n o w a f t e r A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e h a d

r e tu r n e d , I w o u l d i m a g in e t o t h e D G ’s o ff ic e a s y o u ’v e a lr e a d y in d ic a t e d
t o th e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h s fo u r a n d fiv e y o u d e a l
w i t h t h e p r o c e s s a n d h o w t h e y c a n p o s t o f H e a d s o f N a ti o n s a r e d e a lt
w i t h i n a p a r tic u la r c y c le , t h a t i s w h a t w e w o u ld lik e to u n d e r s t a n d .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Since 1994

w h e n S o u t h A f r i c a w a s r e - a d m i tt e d i n t h e g l o b a l s p a c e t h e r e w a s h i g h
d e m a n d f o r S o u t h A f r ic a t o m a k e a c o n tr ib u ti o n h e r e a n d t h e r e a n d a ls o
10

h i g h d e m a n d o u ts id e t h e c o u n tr y a n d e v e n i n t e r n a l ly.

T h e i n te r n a lly

r e m a in s , o u r fi n a n c i a l s i t u a t i o n m ig h t n o t b e a b le to m a k e u s m a i n t a i n
b u t w h e r e v e r w e g o s ti ll , e v e n w h e r e I a m s e a t e d a s M i n is te r o f
W o m e n , Yo u t h a n d P e r s o n s w it h D is a b il i ti e s , S o u th A f r i c a is s ti ll h ig h ly
r e g a r d e d a n d a v o ic e i s n e e d e d .

S o f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f p r o c e s s in g

t h i n g s i n th e D e p a r t m e n t a t t h e t i m e w h e n I w a s t h e r e w a s t h a t w h e n
y o u p o s t o ff ic i a ls , s t a r ti n g fr o m A m b a s s a d o r to w h a t e v e r s e n io r / ju n io r
o ffic i a l w e h a d t o d e c id e t h a t w e h a v e t w o c y c l e s . T h a t t h e r e ’s a c y c l e
o f t h o s e w h o w o u ld l e a v e b e g i n n in g o f th e y e a r o f i f n o t m id - y e a r s o
t h a t w e ’r e a b le t o k e e p tr a c k o f w h a t , y o u k n o w – a n d t h e s e p e o p le
20

m o v e w i t h f a m i li e s , I’v e g o n e t h r o u g h th a t .

C h i ld r e n a r e t a k e n o u t o f

s c h o o l a n d s o o n a n d s o o n , n e v e r th e le s s p o li t ic a l ly i t g i v e s y o u c h a n c e
t o c o n s u lt b r o a d ly a n d th e n th e D G w il l , e v e r y s ix m o n th s , b r in g t h e – a
lis t o f v a c a n c i e s t h a t n e e d s t o b e f il le d i n t h e s ix m o n t h s t o c o m e . S o
t h e M i n i s t e r w o u ld g o a n d s h o w th e Pr e s i d e n t o u r … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y M i n i s t e r t o in t e r r u p t y o u , m a y b e I’ m n o t t h e

Page 52 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
o n ly o n e f e e li n g a l it t le h o t w il l s o m e b o d y a t t e n d to th e a ir c o n b u t i t
s h o u l d n ’ t b e to o m u c h , o k a y I ’ m s o r r y M i n is t e r I i n t e r r u p t e d y o u , y o u
h a d j u s t s a id y o u h a v e to ta k e th e li s t th a t y o u g o t fr o m t h e D G t o t h e
P r e s i d e n t , c o n t in u e f r o m t h e r e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Ye s a n d th e n p o s ts th a t – w e a ls o

h a v e a s e c o n d o p p o r tu n it y, t h e n w e in v i t e t h e in v i t e e s , t h e y ’ r e s t il l
in v i te e s e v e n if t h e y ’ r e n o m i n a t e d f o r a s ix - mo n t h o r i e n t a ti o n . T h a t s ix m o n th o r i e n t a ti o n g i v e s u s e v e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty fo r w a i ti n g f o r t h e
r e c e i v i n g c o u n t r y t o a ls o r e f le c t o n w h o e v e r is g o i n g to b e s e n t t o t h e ir
10

c o u n tr y. A ls o t h e o th e r a g e n c i e s i n g o v e r n m e n t g e ts a n o p p o r t u n i ty to
check.

S o t h is s ix m o n t h s ’ o r i e n t a ti o n d o e s n ’ t s a y, I w a s p o s te d

b e f o r e , I s h o u l d n ’ t g o t h r o u g h t h i s , i t ’s u n ti l I l e f t , a l m o s t l ik e
r u d i m e n ta r y.

Yo u h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h t h a t , i f I m a y d e to u r a b i t , I

r e m e m b e r t h e l a te A m b a s s a d o r, fo r m e r M i n is t e r S k e y e s o w h e n h e w a s
t o b e p o s t e d t o L o n d o n , h e c a m e t o m y – h e w a lk e d i n to m y o ff ic e a n d
s a i d , w a i t a r e y o u s e r i o u s , y o u w a n t to tr a i n m e a s a n A m b a s s a d o r, I
s a i d I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w t o n o t f o l l o w t h is p r o c e d u r e b u t w h e n h e w a s t o
le a v e a f t e r s ix m o n th s w e a ls o o r g a n i s e d t h a t t h e y c o m e t o g e t h e r a n d
r e fl e c t o n th e e x p e r i e n c e o f s i tt i n g f o r s ix m o n t h s a n d s h a r i n g
20

e x p e r i e n c e a n d b e i n g s h o w n t h e r o u te s , t h is w a y a n d t h a t w a y, h e
v o l u n te e r e d to s p e a k o n h o w m u c h h e d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t t h i s w o r k a n d
h e f e lt v e r y, v e r y a n g r y w it h h i m s e l f b e c a u s e h e ’s n o w fo r m e r M i n is t e r
a n d h e ’s b e e n M i n is t e r fo r s o m a n y y e a r s a n d h e d id k n o w w h a t h e
s h o u l d h a v e k n o w n p r i o r to . S o i t a ls o h u m b le d m e t h a t h e r e i s a v e r y
s e n i o r le a d e r w h o s a y s t h i s is a v e r y s tr e s s f u l t a s k .

Page 53 of 153

S o e v e n th is

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C o l o n e l … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e ju s t t o c o m p l e te th a t d e t o u r m a y b e – w a s h e

r a i s i n th a t q u e s t io n o f M i n is te r, a r e y o u s e r i o u s t h a t y o u w a n t to tr a i n
m e a s a n A m b a s s a d o r w a s it b e c a u s e h e h a d s e r v e d a s a n A m b a s s a d o r
a t s o m e s ta g e i n t h e p a s t o r b e c a u s e o f a n y p a r ti c u l a r e x p e r ie n c e o r
w a s i t s i m p l y b e c a u s e h o w s e n i o r h e w a s a s a M in is t e r ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

S e n i o r C h a ir a s a M i n i s t e r b u t

a ls o o n c e M i n i s te r o f P u b li c S e r v ic e a n d A d m in is tr a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s o k a y.

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

S o s e n i o r p o li ti c a l a ls o b u t th e r e

a r e th in g s t h a t – a k n o w l e d g e t h a t h a s t o b e g a in e d to b e c o m e a fi n e
d i p l o m a t , i t’s l ik e y o u c a n ’ t b u y a c a r l ic e n s e a n d g e t o n t h e r o a d a n d
s t a r t d r iv i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Ye s , s o – b u t e v e n f o r th o s e w h o

h a v e s e r v e d a s A m b a s s a d o r s , lik e A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e th e y – i f t h e y
w e r e n o m i n a te d th e y a ls o s ti ll h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h t h a t s ix m o n th s li k e I
s a i d i t g iv e s o th e r c o u n t r i e s w h e r e t h e y a r e s e n t a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o a l s o
r e fl e c t o n t h e m .
20

D r a f t le t t e r s o f r e c o m m e n d a ti o n fr o m t h e M in is t e r to

t h e P r e s id e n t ’s a p p r o v a l a r e g e n e r a te d fr o m t h e o ffic e o f th e M i n i s te r
a n d s e n t t o t h e Pr e s id e n t. T h is is a f te r c o n s u l t a ti o n a g a in w it h th e D G .
O n c e c h o s e n th e n o m in e e s w o u l d a t t e n d th e o r ie n t a ti o n t h a t I h a d
r e fe r r e d to , r u n b y th e D i p l o m a ti c Tr a in i n g a n d R e s e a r c h D e v e l o p m e n t
– y o u w a n t m e to c o n ti n u e ?
ADV NORMAN:

No.

Page 54 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV NORMAN:

W e l l s h e ’s g u i d i n g y o u s h e m u s t – j a .
T h a n k y o u M i n i s t e r, l e t ’s ju s t t a k e t h is s i t u a t i o n w h e r e

w e h a v e th is p a r ti c u la r n o m i n e e t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n A m b a s s a d o r
K o lo a n e a n d o n t h e c h a r g e s th a t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n h a s a lr e a d y r e f e r r e d
t o t h e n i t b e c a m e k n o w n th a t i n fa c t , h e a d m i t t e d b e f o r e th is
C o m m i s s i o n t h a t h e h a d n a m e d r o p p e d n o t o n ly t h e P r e s id e n t ’s n a m e
b u t th e n a m e o f t h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d th e M in is t e r o f D e f e n c e .
S o w o u ld t h a t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M a y I i n te r r u p t y o u a g a i n M s N o r m a n , I ’ m s o r r y.

B e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e I w o u l d lik e t o k n o w w h a t t h e p u r p o s e is o f ta k i n g
t h e n a m e s th a t y o u g e t fr o m t h e D G to t h e Pr e s i d e n t a t t h e s ta g e w h i c h
s e e m s t o m e t o b e t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h a t s ix - m o n t h p r o c e s s , a s I
u n d e r s t a n d y o u a n d y o u m u s t t e l l m e if I d o n ’ t u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c tl y
it s e e ms th a t t h e f ir s t s te p y o u g e t a l is t fr o m t h e D G o f v a c a n c i e s .
N o w I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r y o u s a id y o u g e t – th a t ’s w h a t , t h a t ’s a ll y o u
g e t fr o m t h e D G o r y o u a l s o g e t n a m e s f r o m t h e D G o f p o t e n ti a l
c a n d i d a t e s o r is i t o n l y t h e v a c a n c i e s y o u g e t fr o m t h e D G ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

20

I t ’s b o th .

Yo u g e t b o t h ?

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

The DG can propose names but in

e v e r y c o u n t r y y o u w ill h a v e a p o r ti o n o f p o li ti c a l a p p o i n te e s a n d a
p o r t i o n o f c a r e e r d ip lo m a t s .

I s t r iv e d t o tr y a n d – b e c a u s e c a r e e r

d i p l o m a ts , m a n y o f t h e m a r e – t h e y d o n ’ t a lw a y s g e t i n b u t m a n y o f
t h e m … [ i n t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

They don’t always get?

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

C h a ir th e y d o n ’ t a lw a y s g e t t o th e

t o p b e c a u s e y o u d o n ’ t a p p ly to b e c o m e a d ip l o m a t in o r d e r t o b e c o m e
a n A m b a s s a d o r i t ’s a p r e r o g a ti v e o f t h e P r e s id e n t a s t o w h o h e s e n d s
o u t b u t I s tr iv e d a ls o , a s I h a d s a i d a s a n A m b a s s a d o r I c a m e i n a s a
p o li t ic a l a p p o i n t e e b u t I a ls o s a w w h a t t h e l a t e A m b a s s a d o r S k e y e s o
t h a t i t ’s a l s o i m p o r ta n t to g i v e s p a c e to th o s e w h o a r e a ls o f o r m e r
a c ti v is t s w h o a ls o h a d s e r v e d th e c o u n tr y w e ll a n d c a n b e g o o d
Ambassadors.

N o w f o r m e r A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e h a d d o n e b o t h a n d

h a d s e r v e d t w o d e p a r t m e n ts , t h e D T I a n d a l s o D I R C O a n d l ik e I s a id ,
10

w h e n w e s t a r t e d , w h e n I m e t h i m h e w a s a n A m b a s s a d o r a p p o in t e d b y
f o r m e r, f o r m e r P r e s id e n t in S p a in .

I’ m s u r e t h e S p a n i s h e v e n i f t h e y

s e e h i m t o d a y n o n e o f t h e m w o u ld s a y t h e y c a n a s s o c ia t e h i m w it h w h a t
y o u s a y b u t p o s t th a t t h e r e w a s a d is c ip l in a r y p r o c e s s w h ic h h e w e n t
t h r o u g h … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I’ m s o r r y y o u a r e g e tt i n g i n t o t h e p a r t t h a t s h e i s

s t il l g o i n g t o – I j u s t w a n t e d t o c la r i fy th e p r o c e d u r e o r p r o c e s s t h a t
le a d s t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a n y p a r tic u la r p e r s o n a s a n A m b a s s a d o r.
S o y o u g e t b o t h t h e p o s ts t h a t a r e v a c a n t a n d t h e li s t f r o m t h e D G , l is t
o f n a m e s b u t t h e D G d o e s n ’ t p r o p o s e o r n o m i n a te a n y b o d y b u t h e o r
20

s h e g iv e s y o u a l is t o f p o te n ti a l c a n d i d a t e s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I n te r n a ll y.

J a y o u s a y i n t e r n a l ly d o e s t h a t m e a n h e h a s a l is t

s o m e w h e r e o r t h e r e ’s a p o o l o f c a r e e r d i p l o m a ts w h o a r e a v a i l a b le a n d
t h e r e ’s a p o o l o f p o te n ti a l p o l i ti c a l a p p o i n t e e s fr o m w h o m t h e P r e s i d e n t
c o u l d a p p o in t , i n o t h e r w o r d s w h e r e d o e s h e g e t t h e li s t t h a t h e g iv e s

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
you, how does it come about?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W e l l th e lis t fr o m t h e D G ’s s i d e I

wish I could say she, whoever is appointed…[intervenes]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e l l I’ m t a lk in g h e – I’ m t a lk in g in g e n e r a l b u t

t h e p a r tic u l a r o n e t h a t y o u h a d w a s a h e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Was a he, yes.

Ye s .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

S o a s M i n is t e r o f W o m e n , Yo u t h

a n d P e r s o n s w i t h D is a b i li ti e s I w a s c o m p l a i n in g t o th e P r e s i d e n t t h e
10

o th e r d a y

w h is p e r i n g t o h i m t h a t w e h a v e l e s s th a n t h r e e D G ’s in

g o v e r n m e n t b e c a u s e h e h a d m a d e u s h a p p y b y a p p o i n ti n g 5 0 %
M i n is t e r s , I b e n e fi t e d b u t h e a lw a y s c o r r e c t u s , n o w e s p o il t i t m e a n d
t h e D e p u ty s o I w h is p e r e d t o h i m , I s a i d h e y w e w e r e a ls o v e r y h a p p y
b u t w h e n I lo o k e d a t t h e l is t o f D G ’s w e a r e n o t d o in g v e r y w e l l , w e ’r e
ju s t o u t o f s o m a n y d e p a r t m e n ts w e h a v e l e s s t h a n th r e e … . [ I n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t ’s w h a t it ’s a b o u t .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

T h a t ’s w h y I v e r b a l is e it e v e n i n

wrong spaces.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W e l l t h a t ’s f in e , i t s o u n d s l ik e w h a t w a s s a i d a b o u t

t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t f o r q u i te s o m e ti m e th a t w e o n ly h a d t w o
w o m e n ju d g e s f o r a l o n g ti m e o f c o u r s e w e h a v e m o r e n o w, n o t e n o u g h
b u t a ls o w e a r e q u ic k t o r e m i n d e v e r y b o d y th a t t h e J S E w h ic h
in t e r v ie w s a n d m a k e s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s J u d g e s m a k e a v e r y s m a l l
number of percentage of people who are in that body a lot of them are
p o li t ic i a n s a n d p o l it ic ia n s w h o a r e i n p a r l i a m e n t . O k a y a l r i g h t , s o t h a t

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
is w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g w h e n y o u s a i d y o u w is h i t w a s a s h e , y o u c o u ld
say a she?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W e l l in t h is c a s e h e r e i t ’s a h e .

W h e r e w o u l d h e d e r i v e th e p o o l fr o m i t ’s o f c a r e e r d i p l o m a ts w h o n o w
q u a li fy t o b e A m b a s s a d o r s o r w h o h a v e a c c u m u la t e d e n o u g h e x p e r i e n c e
to become Ambassadors. Both male and female, during my term have
d o n e e x c e p t io n a l ly w e ll , n o t th a t p o li ti c a l a p p o i n t e e s d o n ’ t d o w e ll b u t
t h e y a r e g i v i n g s p a c e t o a l s o a p p o in t in g t h o s e w h o h a d v o w e d t o s p e n d
t h e ir l if e ti m e a s r e p r e s e n t in g S o u t h A fr ic a , i t ’s b e e n g o o d .
10

So former

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e h a d b e e n s u c h … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e D G w o u l d k n o w c a r e e r d i p l o m a ts w h o a r e

a v a i la b le f o r p o s t in g .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d w o u l d h e a ls o k n o w p o li t ic i a n s , in o t h e r w o r d s

p e o p l e – a n d o th e r p e o p l e w h o m i g h t n o t b e p o l i tic ia n s w h o m a y b e
e l ig i b l e t h a t c o u ld b e c o n s i d e r e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Ye s w e c o u l d a l s o g e t s u g g e s ti o n s

fr o m , m a y b e y o u r p o r t f o l io o r t o s a y, y o u k n o w, s o a n d s o c a n a l s o , o n
t h e p a r t o f th e p o l it ic a l a p p o in t e e s .
20

L i k e s o m e c o u n tr y h a s j u s t s e n t

…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I h o p e y o u d o n ’ t g e t a n y r e c o m m e n d a t io n fr o m th e

J u d ic i a r y a s t o w h a t p o li ti c i a n s s h o u l d b e a p p o i n t e d a s a n A m b a s s a d o r,
t h a t w o u ld b e i m p r o p e r.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o – b u t . . [i n te r v e n e s ] .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B u t t h e a t te m p t w e m a d e w a s to

a t l e a s t – I’ m s u r e i t ’s s ti ll t h e p r e o c c u p a ti o n o f t h e c u r r e n t M i n is t e r
t h a t , i d e a l ly w e s h o u ld h a v e 7 0 % , 3 0 % fr o m o u t s i d e , 7 0 % f r o m in t e r n a l
a n d 3 0 % fr o m o u ts i d e b e c a u s e it ’s g o o d t o a l s o h a v e e x p e r ie n c e s b u t
yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h e n y o u s a y 7 0 % f r o m i n te r n a l ly, i s t h a t a

r e fe r e n c e to c a r e e r d i p l o m a ts ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s s ir.

O k a y a lr i g h t b u t y o u – a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t t h e D G

w o u ld n o t h a v e a li s t k e p t s o m e w h e r e o f p e o p l e w h o a r e a v a il a b l e o r
w o u ld h e h a v e s u c h a lis t ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

H e c a n ’ t k e e p a li s t p e r m a n e n tl y.

Ye s .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

H e h a s s ix m o n th s to t h i n k , t h e

s ix - m o n t h c y c l e g a v e u s a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o l l e c t in f o r m a ti o n t o k n o w i n
t h e n e x t c o m i n g s ix m o n t h s w e ’ ll h a v e t h e s e v a c a n c i e s .

It has not

a l w a y s b e e n p o s s i b l e , h a l f th e ti m e y o u ’ r e c a u g h t o ff g u a r d a n d y o u ’v e
g o t m a n y v a c a n c ie s a n d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Not enough people.

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t e n o u g h p e o p le .

O k a y s o a r e y o u t h e r e fo r e s a y i n g t h e r e m i g h t n o t

h a v e b e e n a s t a n d in g l is t t h a t h e h a d to c o n s u l t e a c h ti m e th e r e w e r e
v a c a n c ie s b u t e v e r y s ix m o n t h s h e w o u l d n e e d to c r e a t e a l is t i n th e
s e n s e t h a t h e w o u l d n e e d t o b e r e a d y w h e n e v e r y o u s a y th e r e ’s a n e e d
h e w o u l d n e e d to b e a b l e to s a y h e r e ’s a l is t . H o w h e g o t t h a t li s t is

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h is b u s i n e s s , i n o th e r w o r d s , h o w h e g o t t h e n a m e s o t h e r th a n t h e
c a r e e r d i p l o m a ts w h o a r e in t e r n a l , a n y o n e w h o w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e
c a r e e r d ip l o m a ts , h o w h e g o t t h o s e n a m e s w a s l e ft t o h i m ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t a t a ll s ir.

Ye s .

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Chair I am saying the concern of

t h e D G i s t o w o r k w i th t h e M i n i s te r b e c a u s e y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t
p e o p l e w h o a r e g o i n g t o r e p r e s e n t t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d t h e c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o h e c a n ’ t h a v e a … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

A fr e e r e i g n .

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A f r e e r e i g n b u t h e c a n h a v e a fr e e
r e i g n o f t h o s e w h o a r e c a r e e r d ip l o m a ts t o s a y – t o a v a i l t h e n a m e s t o
s a y, h e r e a r e c a r e e r d ip lo m a t s w i t h e x p e r ie n c e . T h e y a l s o g o t h r o u g h
t h e c h e c k a n d I t h i n k t h e s ix - m o n t h p e r i o d a n d t h e s ix m o n th s , y e s , t h a t
we had created helped us a great deal yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t a s

f a r a s c a r e e r d i p lo m a t s a r e c o n c e r n e d , h e w o u ld k n o w t h e m . H e w o u l d
k n o w w h o ’s a v a i la b le , w h o ’s n o t a v a i la b le a n d w h a t l e v e l o f e x p e r i e n c e
20

t h e y h a v e a n d s o o n , is t h a t r ig h t ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s ir.

N o w I ’ m i n te r e s te d i n k n o w i n g h o w h e w o u ld g e t

n a m e s o f t h o s e w h o a r e n o t c a r e e r d i p lo m a ts , n o w … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
MINISTER

N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Those

who

are not career

d i p l o m a ts C h a ir, c a n c o m e fr o m a ll s e n io r c i ti z e n s i n th e c o u n tr y w h o

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
w o u ld a p p r o a c h u s a n d w e p u t th e n a m e s o n t h e l is t a n d s e n d w h e r e
t h e y s h o u l d b e s e n t b e c a u s e a f te r a ll i t ’s t h e p r e r o g a t iv e o f t h e
P r e s i d e n t to a p p o in t [i n d is t in c t] a s A m b a s s a d o r a t t h e e n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t ’s w h a t I ’ m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d h o w

s o m e b o d y w h o is n o t a c a r e e r d i p l o m a t w o u ld – c o u ld e n d u p o n t h e
lis t .

T h i s is j u s t fo r g e n e r a l u n d e r s t a n d in g , I k n o w t h a t m a y b e

A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e ’s s i tu a ti o n m ig h t b e d i ffe r e n t b u t I w a n t t o
u n d e r s t a n d t h e g e n e r a li t ie s fir s t .

S o s o m e b o d y m ig h t a p p r o a c h th e

d e p a r t m e n t, l e t ’s s a y a p o l i tic i a n o r f o r m e r p o l it ic ia n , I’ m n o t s u r e a n d
10

s a y, I w a n t to p u t d o w n m y n a m e i f t h e r e is a p o s t f o r A m b a s s a d o r I
w o u ld b e a v a il a b l e a n d t h e y c o u l d g iv e t h e ir n a m e t o t h e D G , is t h a t
r ig h t , c o u ld i t h a p p e n li k e t h a t o r n o t r e a l ly ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

N o t r e a lly.

It can – the DG

c o l l a t e s t h e l is ts fr o m t h e in t e r n a l a n d fr o m t h o s e th a t w o u l d h a v e
approached government to say we are ready to serve, we can share our
e x p e r i e n c e . A n d a ll t h o s e w h o w o u l d h a v e b e e n n o m i n a t e d o r v e r b a l ly
n o m i n a te d b y a n y – a n y l e a d e r o f s o c i e t y t o s a y, w e t h i n k s o a n d s o
c a n h e l p i n b e c o m i n g a n A m b a s s a d o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t a t a p r o to c o l l e v e l w h a t I t h i n k I w o u l d d o i f
20

I w a s D G a n d p e o p l e w e r e fr e e to a p p r o a c h m e a n d s a y, I a m h a p p y to
s e r v e . I w o u l d p u t d o w n th e ir n a m e s a n d g e t th e ir C V ’s a n d k e e p th o s e
f o r w h e n i t m a y b e n e c e s s a r y. S o I a m t r y in g to u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r a s
f a r a s th o s e w h o w o u l d e n d u p b e in g o n t h e l is t t h a t w o u l d b e t a k e n to
t h e P r e s i d e n t b u t w h o w e r e n o t c a r e e r d i p l o m a ts w h e t h e r t h e D G w a s
fr e e t o s a y f o r e x a m p l e t o t h e A N C , h a v e y o u g o t n a m e s o f p e o p le t h a t

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c a n b e c o n s i d e r e d e i t h e r n o w o r f o r t h e f u t u r e . W h e r e t h e r e w a s a fr e e
t o g o t h e – a n y p o l it ic a l p a r t y f o r e x a m p l e b e c a u s e I t h i n k i t – I th i n k i t
does happen that sometimes an Ambassador is…
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : F r o m t h e o p p o s i ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s s o m e b o d y fr o m a n o t h e r p a r ty.

Yo u k n o w I t h i n k

there have been…
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Several.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n A m b a s s a d o r t o o w h o u s e d t o b e i n th e D A .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k M r G i b s o n a n d I t h i n k M r To n y L e o n .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: And Mr Mr Leon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If I a m n o t m is t a k e n .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o I a m th i n k i n g w h e th e r i t w a s p a r t o f h is j o b i n
o r d e r to c o l la t e n a m e s t o m a k e a n a p p r o a c h to s o m e o r g a n is a ti o n s
in c l u d i n g c iv i l s o c i e ti e s o r h o w d i d t h i s lis t c o m e a b o u t ? T h a t i s w h a t I
a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d . T h e c a r e e r d ip lo m a ts I u n d e r s t a n d .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m i t i s j u s t th e o t h e r o n e s .

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: W e ll p o l it ic a l p a r t ie s m a y a p p r o a c h
t h e P r e s i d e n t w i th t h e n a m e s y o u h a v e – t h e e x a m p le s y o u h a v e m a d e
w h ic h r e m in d s m e o f a n o th e r la d y w h o w a s fr o m y o u r p r o fe s s i o n S h e il a
Camara.

T h e y a p p r o a c h – th e y c a n a p p r o a c h th e p o l i tic a l o ffic e a n d

s a y, w e h a v e g o t t h e s e p e o p l e a v a il a b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .

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A D V N O R M A N : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M i n is t e r if y o u
m a y t a k e – j u s t t u r n – t h e s a m e Vo l u m e F F 3 – E x h i b i t F F 3 . I f y o u c o u l d
ju s t t u r n t o p a g e 4 5 p l e a s e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A r e w e b a c k to F F 3 ?
A D V N O R M A N : F f 3 y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . P a g e 4 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I a m s o r r y I e n d e d u p n o t g e t ti n g a n – t h e a n s w e r
t o t h e o r i g i n a l q u e s ti o n t h a t I a c t u a ll y w a n t e d .
10

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I t h i n k b o t h th e M i n i s t e r a n d I f o r g o t a b o u t t h a t o r
m a y b e I f o r g o t a n d t h e M i n i s t e r t h o u g h t s h e g a v e m e t h e a n s w e r. S o
t h e o r i g i n a l q u e s ti o n w a s , w h a t is t h e p u r p o s e o f t a k i n g t h e lis t o f
n a m e s t o th e P r e s i d e n t a t – a ft e r t h e – t h e D G h a s g iv e n t o – g i v e n
them to the Minister?

W h a t is t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t ?

Is it for the

P r e s i d e n t a t t h a t s ta g e t o s a y, I a m h a p p y a b o u t t h e s e p e o p l e o r t o
m a k e t h e s e l e c ti o n o f w h o a s f a r a s h e i s c o n c e r n e d – I w a n te d t o – I
w a s t h i n k i n g w h e t h e r I s h o u ld s a y h e o r s h e ? W h e t h e r it is t o g e t th e
a p p r o v a l a t t h a t s t a g e o f t h e i n d iv i d u a ls f o r t h e d i ff e r e n t p o s t i n g s o r
20

w h e t h e r i t is t o g e t a n i d e a w h e t h e r h e h a s a n y is s u e s w i t h th e m b u t h e
is n o t a t t h a t s t a g e m a k i n g a n y f in a l a p p r o v a l .

I t is j u s t to g e t a n

in d i c a t io n o r w h a t t h e p u r p o s e is ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Th e p u r p o s e C h a ir is t o g e t a n

in d i c a t io n t o s a y, w e h a v e g o t s o m a n y v a c a n c i e s a n d w e h a v e g o t t h i s
a p p r o a c h e s a n d th is i s o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n . S o h e – fr o m t h e ti m e o f

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P r e s i d e n t M a n d e la – w e ll I w a s a n A m b a s s a d o r I d o n o t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B u t fr o m t h e ti m e o f P r e s id e n t

M b e k i a n d P r e s id e n t Z u m a t h e y w o u l d s a y, g o b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: And do your work.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B e c a u s e t h e y h a d th e l i b e r t y t o

k n o w t h a t y o u s ti ll h a v e s i x m o n t h s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

To p r o c e s s t h e s e p e o p l e b e f o r e

t h e y w e n t . D u r i n g m y ti m e w h e n I w a s a p p o i n te d A m b a s s a d o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I t to o k u s th r e e m o n t h s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

To k n o w e v e r y th in g a n d p a c k a n d

wait for the agreema.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
20

B u t a s ti m e w e n t o n w e r e a l is e d

w e n e e d m o r e ti m e t o b r i n g t h e f a ir n e s s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. So…
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: S o t h e f in a l – t h e fi n a l y e s o r n o d
fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t c o m e s w it h w h e n h e s ig n s o ff.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a f t e r h e h a d th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f th e M in is t e r ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Ye s .

Page 64 of 153

Well yes.

After the – and

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
t h e n h e s i g n s o ff t h e n a m e s a n d t h e n w e q u ie t ly w a i t f o r t h e a g r e e m a
fr o m t h e r e c e i v i n g c o u n tr y. B u t a t t h e i n i t ia l s ta g e s w e w i ll s a y, th e s e
are the vacancies.

W e w o u l d n o t s a y, t h is o n e m u s t g o to w o r k a t

D u g g u , th is o n e m u s t g o a n y w h e r e .

I t is j u s t t o s a y h e r e is a l is t o f

v a c a n c ie s . B e c a u s e – w e ll m a y b e i n t h e s p i r i t o f [i n d i s t i n c t ] y o u j u s t
m a k e y o u r s e l f a v a i la b le y o u c a n n o t s a y I a ls o w a n t to g o t h e r e .

Not

e v e n A m b a s s a d o r s [i n d i s t i n c t ] s a id t h a t t o u s . H e d id n o t s a y, I w a n t t o
go to London. No.

H e j u s t a v a i ls h i m – a v a i l e d h i m s e l f a n d it w a s t h e

p r e r o g a tiv e o f t h e P r e s id e n t t o s a y, I a m s e n d in g y o u t o th is c o u n tr y.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o – s o t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t in i ti a l m e e t i n g b e t w e e n

t h e M i n i s t e r a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t w h e r e y o u b r in g th e …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n u m b e r o f p o s t s a n d th e n a m e s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is f o r t h e Pr e s id e n t to g iv e s o m e i n d i c a t io n if h e h a s
a n y p r o b l e m w it h a n y o f th e n a m e s , is t h a t r i g h t?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And if he has no problem you then go back to do

s o m e f u r th e r w o r k ?
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u – y o u s a id t h a t d u r i n g t h e t i m e o f P r e s i d e n t
M b e k i a n d I th in k y o u s a id Pr e s id e n t Z u m a a s w e l l t h e y w o u ld s a y, g o
back and do your work.

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MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

I g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n a n d y o u m u s t t e ll m e i f m y

i m p r e s s io n is r i g h t ? I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e c o n v e y i n g
w a s th e y w o u l d n o t b e t o o i n t e r e s te d in l o o k i n g a t d e ta ils o r n a m e s a t
t h a t s ta g e .

T h e y w o u ld s a y, g o a n d d o y o u r w o r k .

Is t h a t w h a t y o u

mean?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: W e ll t h e d e t a i ls i t is th e w o r k th a t
– i f I – t h e r e is p o l i ti c a l w o r k th a t t h e M i n is t e r h a s to d o th e M in is t e r
h a s t h e e x e c u t in g a u t h o r i t y t o d o t h a t w o r k . T h e c a r e e r d i p lo m a t s a r e
10

t h e r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f t h e a ls o t h e D G t o s a y, I h a v e t h e s e m e n a n d
w o m e n w h o h a v e s e r v e d t h e c o u n tr y.

M aybe they have been serving

a ls o a t h e a d q u a r t e r s f o r th e p a s t s o m a n y n u m b e r o f y e a r s o r s o m a n y
a n d s o m a n y a n d – o r s o m e ti m e s w e d o – w e d id a n d w e – a n d I s e e
t h e p r a c t ic e i s c o n t i n u i n g o f s h i ft i n g a m b a s s a d o r s fr o m o n e a r e a to t h e
o th e r b e c a u s e s o m e w o u ld h a v e b e e n g o o d i n t h is a n d th e n s h i f t th e m
t o t h e o t h e r a r e a s w h e r e th e y c o u l d h e lp .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w o u ld y o u a t t h a t s t a g e o f t h a t i n it i a l m e e t in g w it h
t h e Pr e s id e n t to g e t a n in d i c a t i o n o f h is a tt i tu d e t o w a r d s th e f ill i n g o r
a p p o i n ti n g t h e p e o p le th e r e . A t th a t s t a g e w o u l d y o u h a v e th e ir C V ’s
20

a n d s o o n a n d w o u l d th a t in f o r m a t io n b e s e n t t o h i m a h e a d o f t h e
m e e ti n g s o t h a t w h e n y o u m e e t h e h a s h a d a c h a n c e to l o o k a t t h e m ?
O r h o w w o u ld t h a t w o r k n o r m a l ly ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e – w e w i ll – w e w i ll d e p o s i t t h e
C V ’s b u t w e w il l h a v e to t a lk t o t h e C V ’s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e C V ’s y e s .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o w h e n y o u le a v e t h a t m e e t in g y o u h a v e a n – i f
t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s n o t i n d i c a t e d a n y d i ffi c u l ty w i t h a n y p a r t ic u l a r n a m e
y o u w o u ld ta k e i t t h a t i n p r in c i p l e h e h a s n o p r o b l e m w i t h a n y b o d y b u t
t h e n y o u w o u ld k n o w t h a t y o u m u s t s ti ll g o a n d d o p o li ti c a l w o r k a b o u t
t h e s e n a m e s a n d l a te r o n y o u w o u l d t h e n m a k e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d it is a f t e r th a t r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t y o u w o u l d

k n o w w h e t h e r fi n a ll y h e a p p r o v e s o r n o t . I s t h a t r ig h t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s . B e c a u s e h e w i ll s ig n o ff.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w o u ld s i g n o ff j a .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h a n k y o u S ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

No thank you very much.

And then maybe

b e c a u s e – b e f o r e M s N o r m a n c o n t in u e s . A ls o t h e – y o u k n o w w h e n –
w h e n A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e w a s a p p o i n te d th e r e w e r e t a lk s a b o u t h i m
b e i n g p r o m o te d .

W h a t is t h e l e v e l o r r a n k i n g o f a n A m b a s s a d o r

compared to a DG and also maybe even a – I do not know – maybe I
20

w a n t t o s a y e v e n c o m p a r e d to t h e M i n is t e r b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t
o n c e s o m e b o d y i s a n A m b a s s a d o r t o a c o u n tr y th e y r e p r e s e n t t h e
P r e s i d e n t b u t a ls o I t h i n k t h e y a r e r e fe r r e d to a s Yo u r E x c e ll e n c y a n d
a l l o f t h a t. S o I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s ta n d t h e r a n k i n g y o u k n o w. I s it a
p r o m o ti o n i f y o u h a v e b e e n a t D G l e v e l ? Is i t a p r o m o ti o n if y o u h a v e
b e e n a M i n is t e r o r is it a d e m o ti o n i f y o u h a v e b e e n a M i n is t e r ? Is it

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p r o m o ti o n – w h e r e d o e s i t r a n k ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C h a ir I w o u ld s a y i t is a n h o n o u r t o
c a r r y a l e tt e r th a t s a y s , M a i t e N k o a n a - Ma s h a b a n e r e p r e s e n t s t h e
c o u n tr y i n t h e w h o l e o f M a l a s i a . I t is a n h o n o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S o i t c a n b e fo r m e r M in is t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I t c a n f o r m e r A m b a s s a d o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I t c a n b e a fo r m e r p r e a c h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B u t i t is a n h o n o u r. I t is n e v e r a

d e m o t i o n o r a p r o m o ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: B u t I t h i n k i t is a n h o n o u r. B u t fo r
p o s ti n g s lik e N e w Yo r k w h e r e y o u r e p r e s e n t S o u th A f r i c a a t th e U N t h e
p r a c ti c e h a s a l w a y s b e e n i t m u s t b e s o m e o n e w i th r e a l ly r e a l d ip lo m a t ic
experience.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t – d o e s i t lik e c a r r y a p a r t ic u l a r p r e s t ig e s o m e ti m e s
20

b e c a u s e o f t h e l o c a ti o n w h e r e y o u a r e p o s t e d ?
wrong name, is a wrong word.

M a y b e p r e s t i g e is a

I a m s a y in g – I s a i d – I a s k e d t h e

q u e s t io n w h e t h e r i f y o u a r e p o s t e d t o th e U N .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e t h e r i t c a r r i e s a p a r ti c u la r p r e s ti g e , y o u r p o s t in g
a n d I a m – I j u s t s a id m a y b e p r e s ti g e is a w r o n g w o r d .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

But you wanted to talk about that part if you are

p o s te d t o c e r ta in c o u n tr i e s o r c e r t a in b o d i e s y o u s a y y o u m i g h t n e e d
special

e x p e r tis e

and

experience

to

be

a p p o in t e d

to

those

ambassadorships?
MINISTER

N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Well

to

–

just

to

be

an

A m b a s s a d o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is a n h o n o u r i ts e l f .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
10

Is a n h o n o u r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

S o I th i n k I o v e r - e x t e n d e d t h e

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s , t h e h e a v y r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: That you carry as you move on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I g u e s s t h e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k i n g is y o u m a y h a v e
a c o u n tr y w h ic h i s s u c h t h a t i n o r d e r f o r t h e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f t h e
P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y t h e r e to b e a b l e to c a r r y o u t h is o r h e r
20

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s p r o p e r ly th e y s h o u l d h a v e a c e r t a in le v e l o f e x p e r ie n c e
in th a t k i n d o f j o b w h ic h m ig h t n o t b e t h e s a m e i f i t is a n o th e r p o s t i n g
a n d s o o n d e p e n d in g o n t h e d e m a n d s a n d t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Fr o m m y li t tl e e x p e r i e n c e C h a ir I

s a i d i t is a n h o n o u r t o s e r v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: B e c a u s e I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h e r e
y o u w o u l d s a y th is is a s m a l l [ in d is ti n c t ] A m b a s s a d o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h is i s o n e – t h is i s a b i g o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B e c a u s e w h e n y o u a r r iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: T h e y fir s t – it is n o t a u to m a t ic t h a t
w h e n y o u a r e n o m i n a t e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t y o u w i ll g e t a n o d f r o m t h e
10

r e c e i v i n g c o u n t r y.

S o w h e n t h e y r e c e iv e y o u t h e y h a v e a lr e a d y d o n e

t h e ir h o m e w o r k a n d t h e y w o u l d b e k n o w in g w h o th e y a r e r e c e iv in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

So – but I do not remember any

o th e r c o u n tr y. B e c a u s e I s a id e a r li e r o n b e c a u s e o f th e s ta t u r e o f o u r
c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: W h e r e a n A m b a s s a d o r i s s e n t a n d
ig n o r e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: In fact more and more as we grow
in t o a d e m o c r a c y e v e n t h e n e i g h b o u r h o o d b e c o m e s v e r y, v e r y, v e r y
c r i ti c a l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S o w h e th e r i t is n e a r o r f a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . J a .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

I t b e c o m e s j u s t t h a t it is a n

h o n o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : To c a r r y t h e n a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O f t h e c o u n tr y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: With you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d I b e c o r r e c t in u n d e r s ta n d i n g y o u r e v i d e n c e i n
10

t h is r e g a r d t o b e t o t h is e ff e c t ? T h a t i t m a y b e s o m e t h i n g s p e c i a l t o b e
a p p o i n t e d a s D G o f a d e p a r t m e n t, a s D e p u ty D G o f th e d e p a r t m e n t .
M a y b e i t is e v e n a n h o n o u r o k a y.

B u t w h e n y o u a r e a p p o in t e d a s

A m b a s s a d o r t o r e p r e s e n t t h e Pr e s id e n t , t h e H e a d o f S t a t e a n d to
r e p r e s e n t y o u r c o u n tr y i n a n o t h e r c o u n tr y it is a s p e c i a l h o n o u r. Is my
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g c o r r e c t o r n o t r e a lly ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

C h a i r I th i n k y o u a r e c o r r e c t b u t

a ls o e q u a ll y a s s o o n a s t h e y p a c k u p t h e i r b a g s a n d g e t i n t o w h e r e v e r
t h e y w il l b e p o s t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

They also have to be responsible

for the PFMA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S o i t i s a n h o n o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B u t b e c a u s e w e a r e S o u th A fr ic a .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Yo u r u n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay no thank you.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n .
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t o n t h e p o in t M in is t e r w h e n y o u
a r e a n A m b a s s a d o r i n a c o u n tr y d o y o u r e c e i v e a s a l a r y fr o m t h a t
10

c o u n tr y o r d o y o u r e t a i n y o u r s a la r y i n S o u t h A f r ic a ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I n fa c t if – i f w e h e a r C h a ir t h a t

y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d a n y t h i n g fr o m a n o t h e r c o u n tr y w h e r e y o u a r e
s u p p o s e d t o b e – e v e n i f y o u a r e h u n g r y y o u h a v e to p r e t e n d t h a t y o u
a r e f u l l . S o w e j u s t h e a r th a t y o u a r e b e g i n n i n g t o t a k e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e c e iv e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

R e c e iv e t h i n g s y o u c o m e b a c k

home.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: S o e v e n i f y o u g o f o r t h r e e m o n th s
o r fo u r m o n t h s a n d t h e r e is a u s t e r i ty m e a s u r e s a n d t h e r e is n o f o o d a t
home.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

T h e d is c i p l i n e o f t h e A m b a s s a d o r

is k e e p – k e e p y o u r f la g

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON: Ja tighten the belt.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : F ly in g a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e l l I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r M s N o r m a n …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: S o y o u d o n o t r e c e iv e – t o r e s p o n d
to your question.
10

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: W e – A m b a s s a d o r s d o n o t g e t p a i d
b y fo r e ig n c o u n tr i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Th e y l iv e o n w h a t th e y g e t fr o m

t h e ir o w n c o u n tr ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV NORMAN:

Thank you.

M i n is t e r a t p a g e 4 5 o f F F 3 .

Are you

there?
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s th a n k y o u . T h e r e i s a li s t o f h e a d s o f n a ti o n p o s ts
June 2014 cycle.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

W h e n y o u w e r e t a lk in g a b o u t t h i s d e p lo y m e n t a r e w e

r e fe r r i n g t o t h a t l is t a n d w h e n y o u a n s w e r e d to th e C h a i r p e r s o n t h a t

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
y o u w o u ld h a v e r e c e iv e d a l is t fr o m t h e D G , w o u ld t h a t b e th e li s t o f
t h e c o u n t r i e s th a t h a d v a c a n c i e s ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s . Ye s Sir.
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e a q u e s t i o n I s h o u ld h a v e a s k e d e a r l i e r

M i n is t e r. T h e lis t o f n a m e s t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e – y o u w o u ld r e c e i v e a s
M i n is t e r fr o m t h e D G e v e r y s ix m o n th s o r a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i ti o n .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d i t b e a l is t – w o u l d th e n a m e s a s a n o r m b e

r e q u ir e d t o b e m o r e t h a n t h e p o s ts o r w o u ld it n e e d to b e – th e r e
10

s h o u l d b e a s m a n y n a m e s a s t h e r e a r e p o s ts o r t h e r e w a s n o s p e c i f ic
rule?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

We – we have now been so lucky

a s a – to h a v e e n o u g h n a m e s a t a g i v e n ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B e c a u s e o f th e m a y b e t h e – th e

f a c t t h a t S o u t h A f r i c a r e q u ir e s …
CHAIRPERSON: They…
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S o m e [i n d is t in c t] b u t w e . ..
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Th e li s t a c t u a ll y c a u ti o n s th a t y o u
need people but not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o n o t h i n g s p e c i fi c
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B u t a ls o n o t e v e r y b o d y c a n b e a n
A m b a s s a d o r w a k i n g u p i n th e m o r n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Of course I am sure ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u M in is t e r. A n d t h e n if y o u t u r n o v e r to t h e
n e x t p a g e o f th e – p a g e – f r o m p a g e 4 5 y o u h a v e th e l e t t e r – t h e
s u b m is s io n t h a t y o u m a d e to t h e P r e s i d e n t .
10

CHAIRPERSON: What page must we go to?
A D V N O R M A N : P a g e 4 7 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 47.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s 4 7 o f p a g e o f Ex h ib i t F F 3 . N o w a t t h is p o i n t t h e n
w h e n y o u w r i t e t o th e Pr e s id e n t b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a lr e a d y a n s w e r e d t o
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t y o u w o u l d g o t o th e P r e s i d e n t , y o u w o u l d d is c u s s
t h e v a c a n c y l is t , p o s s i b l e n o m i n e e s , a t t h i s p o i n t th e n w h e n y o u t h e a s
a M i n is te r s t a r t p u t ti n g d o w n a s u b m i s s i o n t o th e Pr e s id e n t w o u l d t h e
c o u n tr y w h e r e t h e p a r ti c u la r i n c u m b e n t is g o i n g t o b e p o s t e d t o , w o u ld
t h a t h a v e b e e n d e c i d e d a lr e a d y b y t h e Pr e s id e n t a t t h is p o i n t w h e n y o u

20

m a k e t h e s u b m is s i o n ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : N o t n e c e s s a r ily.
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s . A n d t h e n i n t h is i n s t a n c e o f t h e – o f th e le t t e r

w h ic h is d a t e d 3 J u n e w h ic h r e l a t e s t o A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e .

Would

y o u h a v e c h o s e n t h a t c o u n tr y f o r h i m ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e – w e h a d a D D G s i t ti n g w h e r e

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
t h e r e w e r e C h a ir i f y o u m a y a ll o w m e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

D D G ’s a p p ly o n a r e g u l a r – a n y

D D G in a n y o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t, r e g u l a r a p p l ic a t i o n s .

D G ’s a p p ly

r e g u la r ly li k e a l l o t h e r s . W h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A p p ly fo r a p p o in t m e n t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : F o r t h e – f o r t h e p o s i ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e A m b a s s a d o r s ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: No.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : To b e D D G ’s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : To b e D G ’s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Like I said.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
MINISTER

N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

I

am

saying

i n t e r n a l ly

they

c o m p e te li k e a n y o n e e ls e . B u t – s o t h e y c a n b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M i n is t e r a g a i n . I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r a n
20

a tt e m p t w a s m a d e t o p u t o n th e a ir c o n d i ti o n e r.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k i t is o n b u t m a y b e it s h o u ld b e i n c r e a s e d a

li t tl e b i t . Ye s , y e s . I a m s o r r y y o u m a y p r o c e e d M in is t e r. D D G ’s a p p ly
b l a , b la , b l a .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

T h e y a p p l y a n d c o m p e t e fo r t h e

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p o s i ti o n s b u t A m b a s s a d o r s a r e a p p o i n t e d i n te r n a l ly a n d e x te r n a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h o u t a p p ly i n g ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

W it h o u t a p p ly in g .

Yo u c a n n o t

a p p ly to b e c o m e a n A m b a s s a d o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . Yo u j u s t m a k e y o u r s e l f a v a il a b l e to s e r v e
t h a t i s a ll .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Indeed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER

N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

So

the Ambassador

Koloane

h a p p e n e d to h a v e b e e n a v a il a b l e w h e n w e h a d th e v a c a n c y i n th a t
p a r t ic u l a r c o u n tr y a n d b e c a u s e h e h a d g o n e t h r o u g h a l l t h e p r o c e s s e s
w h ic h w e r e fe r r e d t o e a r li e r o n w e p u t h i s n a m e a l s o .

And even the

r e c e i v i n g c o u n tr y d i d n o t r e j e c t h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s N o r m a n .
ADV NORMAN:

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I s e e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f th e

s t a te m e n t y o u – if I m a y ju s t r e a d t h a t q u i c k ly ?
“ D u r i n g th e J u n e 2 0 1 4 c y c le p la c e m e n t h e w a s
20

c o n s i d e r e d f o r th e p o s ti n g t o g e t h e r w it h 1 7 o t h e r s . ”
S o w e r e t h e s e 1 7 c o n s id e r e d a ls o f o r t h e H a i g h o r w e r e t h e y
c o n s i d e r e d f o r th e v a r io u s c o u n t r i e s th a t a p p e a r a t p a g e 4 5 ?
MINISTER

NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Th e r e

v a c a n c ie s .
CHAIRPERSON: 18?

Page 77 of 153

would

have

been

18

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B u t w e h a d to i m m e d i a t e ly fi ll i n

t h e 1 7 . B u t a l s o th e n w e h a d t o l o o k a t a s u s u a l e x p e r ie n c e . H o w d o –
a ft e r h a v i n g s e n t th e l is t a n d c o m e b a c k w i t h t h e l is t , h o w d o w e d e p l o y
– how does the experience count on?

B e c a u s e n o w w e h a v e in t e r n a l

p e o p l e a n d e x te r n a l b u t w e a ls o h a v e t o c o n s i d e r e x p e r i e n c e . Th a t is
how the name of Ambassador Koloane came
10

ADV NORMAN:

Ye s .

S o a t t h i s p o in t th e n w h e n y o u m a d e t h e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n is i t c o r r e c t M in is t e r t h a t i n t h is s u b m i s s i o n t h a t I h a v e
r e fe r r e d y o u a t p a g e 4 7 .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

Th e r e i s n o m e n t io n o f a n y d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g s ,

c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m , h a v i n g s e r v e d a n y s a n c ti o n , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n I t h i n k p o s t
p u n is h m e n t p u n is h m e n t. W h e n y o u n o m i n a te y o u n o m i n a t e . I f t h e r e is
a – w e h a v e s i x m o n t h s t o g e t q u e r i e s a s p e o p l e g o t h r o u g h tr a i n i n g to
s a y t h is o n e c a n g o b u t t h is o n e h a d s e r v e d i f y o u l ik e , if it is a j a il
20

ti m e a ti m e . B u t h e i s a ls o a n e x p e r i e n c e d A m b a s s a d o r. S o w e h a d n o
o th e r w a y o f k e e p i n g h i m p a i d , s it t in g a t h o m e d o in g n o t h in g a n d w e –
we cannot say go home because we had no reason.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k – I th i n k M s N o r m a n i t is i m p o r t a n t to r e a d i n t o
t h e r e c o r d th e M in is t e r ’s l e t t e r to t h e P r e s i d e n t .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir. T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e w e c o u ld a s k y o u M in is t e r i f y o u c a n r e a d th a t
le t t e r ?
A D V N O R M A N : I f y o u c o u ld r e a d – y e s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

A t p a g e – y o u l e t t e r t o t h e P r e s id e n t a t p a g e 4 7 .

H a v e y o u g o t th e p a g e ?
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . H a v e y o u g o t it M i n i s te r p a g e 4 7 ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: No.
ADV NORMAN: 47.
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: No.
A D V N O R M A N : I t i s i n t h e f il e – o h F F3 t h a t f il e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: FF3.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s , y e s th a t i s th e o n e . Ye s i f y o u c o u l d j u s t t u r n t o
page 47.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Can you…
C H A I R P E R S O N : 4 7 w o u ld b e a t th e – a t t h e b e g i n n in g .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s it is .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay where is your – somebody helping you.
ADV NORMAN: I am sorry I have just…

20

CHAIRPERSON: Did they just absent?
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s , y e s 4 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u Mr S i b e k o .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Ye s .

Page 79 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d t h a t le t t e r a l o u d ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
“Dear Mr President. I have the honour to submit the
f o ll o w i n g n o m i n a ti o n s f o r th e H e a d o f M is s io n P o s t a t
t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n E m b a s s y in th e H a i g h c o u n t r y,
Netherlands, the Haigh.

N o m in e e , M r Vu s i B r u c e

K o lo a n e . Mr Vu s i B r u c e K o l o a n e w a s b o r n o n t h e 2 2
August 1962.

A f t e r c o m p l e ti n g h i s s c h o o li n g h e

p u r s u e d h i s i n te r e s t i n e d u c a ti o n b y c o m p le t in g a n
10

H o n o u r s D e g r e e i n E c o n o m ic s . H e b e g a n h i s c a r e e r
a s a n A s s is t a n t D ir e c t o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d e a n d
I n d u s tr y a n d t h e n s e r v e d A d m is s i o n s i n E g y p t , J a p a n
a n d C h i n a b o t h S h a n g h a i a s C o n s u l a te G e n e r a l a n d
B e ij in g a s [i n d i s t i n c t ].

D u r in g h is c a r e e r h e p la y e d

an

promoting

a c t iv e

role

in

tr a d e ,

t o u r is m ,

t e c h n o l o g y tr a n s fe r a n d a t tr a c t in g i n v e s t m e n ts t o
S o u th A f r ic a .

Fr o m 2 0 0 7 t o 2 0 1 0 h e s e r v e d a s

A m b a s s a d o r t o t h e K in g d o m o f S p a in . H e w a s a ls o a
founding
20

member

of

the

DCO

M a t iw a n e

Yo u th

L e a g u e , S o B a n t u Yo u t h O r g a n i s a t io n a n d I m b a li
Yo u t h O r g a n i s a t io n .

I n 2 0 11 h e w a s e l e c t e d a s

D e p u ty D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l w h e r e h e s e r v e d in d i ff e r e n t
p o r t f o l i o s i n c l u d i n g b e i n g C h ie f o f s t a te p r o t o c o l a
p o s i ti o n h e o c c u p i e d u n t il O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 .
then

appointed

as

the

D e p u ty

Page 80 of 153

He was

D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
O p e r a t io n s i n t h e o ff ic e o f t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l
w h e r e h e s t il l s e r v e .
approve

the

Mr Pr e s i d e n t s h o u ld y o u

n o m i n a t io n

the

Department

of

I n t e r n a ti o n a l R e l a ti o n s a n d C o o p e r a t i o n w i ll r e q u e s t
agreement

q u e s t io n

within

a c c o r d a n c e w it h t h e i n te r n a ti o n a l p r a c t i c e .

Once

approval

fr o m

has

the

been

c o u n tr y

granted

in

the

usual

p u b l ic

a n n o u n c e m e n t o f a p p o i n t m e n t s w il l b e m a d e . Si g n e d
M a i te

Nkoana-Mashabane

on

th is

date

and

p r o c e e d e d t o t h e Pr e s id e n t ”

10

ADV NORMAN:

Ye s a n d a ls o s i g n e d b y t h e P r e s i d e n t o n t h e 4 J u n e

2014?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s . A ls o s ig n e d b y t h e Pr e s id e n t
on the 4 June 2014.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s – y o u r l e t te r i ts e l f i s d a t e d 3 J u n e 2 0 1 4 , i s t h a t
r ig h t , o n th e fir s t p a g e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M a y I ju s t a s k M i n is t e r t o t u r n t o

p a g e 3 5 o f t h e s a m e b u n d le ?
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 35?
A D V N O R M A N : 3 5 y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : A l t h o u g h – a l th o u g h it is i n c o m p l e t e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Yo u h a v e p a g e s I h a v e [ in d is ti n c t ] .
ADV NORMAN:

B u t I w il l ju s t t a k e – p a g e 3 5 .

Have you got it

M i n is t e r ? 3 5 .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : If y o u j u s t r e f e r t o t h e d o c u m e n t i t
is b e t te r …
A D V N O R M A N : O h . S o r r y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B e c a u s e h e r e i t is …
A D V N O R M A N : O k a y.
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Numbers.
A D V N O R M A N : A lr ig h t . O k a y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : S h e i s g o i n g to a s s is t . J u s t t u r n t o p a g e 3 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I - I a m s o r r y.
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M in is t e r y o u - y o u c a n n o t s e e t h e p a g e n u m b e r s ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: No.
A D V N O R M A N : O k a y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h e fi l e I h a v e is …

20

A D V N O R M A N : I t i s - i t is …
CHAIRPERSON: I said they must not …
ADV NORMAN: No, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Sabotage you.
A D V N O R M A N : I - I t h i n k w h a t c o n f u s e s t h e - th e M i n i s t e r is t h a t t h e y
h a d a c tu a lly n u m b e r e d t h e d i v i d e r s th e m s e lv e s .

Page 82 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
A D V N O R M A N : S o s o m e ti m e s w h e n y o u g e t t o t h e d i v i d e r y o u d o n o t
k n o w w h e t h e r th e r e is a c t u a ll y a d o c u m e n t u n d e r n e a th , b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Then you - maybe when you …
ADV NORMAN: (Intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Refer …
ADV NORMAN: (Intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u r e fe r h e r t o a p a g e m a y b e y o u m u s t

m e n ti o n t h e d iv i d e r …
10

A D V N O R M A N : T h e d iv i d e r n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d u n d e r w h a t - w h a t d i v id e r t h e p a g e …
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d o c u m e n t is .
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I w i ll d o th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV NORMAN: Are - are you there?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O k a y.
ADV NORMAN:

P a g e 3 5 . A lt h o u g h th a t p a r a g r a p h i s i n c o m p l e t e , b u t

t h e r e is s o m e th i n g t h a t I w o u l d lik e t o j u s t d e a l w i t h in r e s p o n s e t o
20

s o m e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t y o u g a v e t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s q u e s t io n s ,
b u t in p a r a g r a p h 7 …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
A D V N O R M A N : I t i s s ta t e d b y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e d i s c i p li n a r y.
“ T h e f a c ts s h o w t h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a b u s e d
d i p l o m a t ic c h a n n e l s a n d t o o k i t u p o n h i ms e l f t o

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
f a c i li t a te t h e i ll e g a l r e q u e s t o f - f o r th e l a n d in g o f
t h e a ir c r a f t.

I n m i t ig a ti o n A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e

a d m i t t e d h e r e t o e r r o r - d u e to e r r o r o f j u d g m e n t .
H e f a i le d t o v e r i fy if t h e I n d i a n H ig h C o m m i s s io n
provided a note verbal to the department. That was
d e s p i te t h e fa c t t h a t h e i s e x p e c t e d to b e w e l l
v e r s e d w i t h d ip lo m a t ic p r o t o c o l. ”
A n d t h e n y o u w e n t f u r t h e r b y d ir e c t ly s p e a k in g t o t h e c o m m o n
p o s t A ir f o r c e B a s e W a t e r k lo o f a n d s a y th a t :
“ T h e r e w o u l d b e f o u r o r f iv e M in is t e r s o n th e fl ig h t

10

a n d fu r t h e r m o r e d r o p p e d t h e n a m e s o f t h e M i n i s te r
o f Tr a n s p o r t, M i n i s t e r o f D e f e n c e a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t
in o r d e r t o p r e s s u r is e t h e c o m m a n d p o s t to i s s u e
t h e c l e a r a n c e fo r t h e il le g a l la n d i n g o f th e a ir c r a f t . ”
B u t j u s t t a k i n g a l l o f t h e a n s w e r s t o th e q u e s ti o n s b y t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n y o u h a d s a i d t h a t t h e p e r s o n - b e i n g a d ip l o m a t i s a n
honour …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
A D V N O R M A N : A n d th e p e r s o n a c t u a lly r e p r e s e n ts t h e c o u n tr y.
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

N o w t h e r e is a s f i n d in g t h a t a l r e a d y h e h a d a b u s e d

d i p l o m a t ic c h a n n e ls .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
A D V N O R M A N : W h e n y o u m a d e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w h e r e y o u n o t a t
le a s t - e v e n in t h e v e r y l e a s t c o n c e r n e d t h a t h a v i n g a b u s e d h is

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d i p l o m a t ic p o w e r s w h e n h e w a s S t a t e o f C h i e f Pr o t o c o l . W o u l d h e n o t
d o t h e s a m e w h e n h e w a s p o s t e d e ls e w h e r e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e l l t h is is p o s t a l l th e s a g a s . S o
y o u e i th e r - h o w d o I b a n k a p e r s o n i n a d e p a r t m e n t f o r e v e r, b e c a u s e
there is pre …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr e Wa t e r k lo o f ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e r e i s p o s t W a te r k l o o f a n d t h e r e is p o s t

d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s e s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
process.

There

is

a

post

d is c i p l in a r y

S o h o w d o y o u - a n d p o s t s ix m o n th s - h o w d o I k e e p th e

p e r s o n c o m i n g to w o r k a n d d o in g n o t h i n g a n d h a v e e x p e r i e n c e ,
b e c a u s e e v e n n o w h e i s n o w r e tir e d , b u t w e d o n o t h a v e a n y r e c o r d o f
a n y th in g u n t o w a r d a s to w h e r e h e p o s t t h e p o s ti n g t h a t is u n d e r
d is c u s s io n .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m n o t s u r e i f I fo ll o w w h a t y o u a r e c o n v e y i n g M s M i n is t e r. J u s t s ta r t a g a in .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I a m s a y i n g C h a ir t h is is 2 0 1 9 . W e
a r e s t il l o n t h e c a s e o f p o s t d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s o f 2 0 1 3 . H e h a d b e e n
p o s te d a n d h e is b a c k h o m e a n d w e h a v e n o t h a d p o s t th e d i s c i p li n a r y
p r o c e s s e s a n d a ll t h a t a n d p o s t t h e p o s t d i p l o m a t ic p o s t i n g . Th e r e i s

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
n o - li k e I s a i d h e s h o w e d c o n tr i t io n w h e n h e c a m e b a c k a n d w e s a i d
h i m - a n d w e h a d a v a c a n c y a n d h e w a s n o t s e l e c te d o u t o f - h e w a s
n o t t h e o n ly n o m in e e .
T h e r e w e r e 1 7 o t h e r s a t t h a t ti m e .

So if you - if you are a

p o li t ic a l p e r s o n y o u w o u l d k n o w th a t a t Th e H a g u e t h e r e is n o - t h e r e is
n o fr e e s ty li n g . I t is - it is a b o u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is n o ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h e r e i s n o fr e e s t y l in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I t is - i f - if i t i s a b o u t s o m e b o d y

w h o c a n a b u s e d i p l o m a ti c i m m u n i ti e s t h e r e is a b s o l u te ly n o t h i n g to
h a v e , b e c a u s e i t is n o t l ik e b e in g s e n t t o a c o u n tr y w h e r e f o c u s is o n o n a l l th e o t h e r t h i n g s a n d s a v e t o s a y t h a t i t is - i t is a p l a c e w h e r e w e
c a n s e n d p e o p l e w h o j u s t u n d e r s t a n d d i p l o m a c y.
S o h e w a s n o t s e n t t o a b i g c o u n tr y o r w h a t e v e r, b u t t h a t
n o m i n a ti o n w a s l ik e a n y o t h e r b u t t h e c o n s id e r a ti o n s , b e c a u s e y o u a r e
a s k in g w h a t c o n s i d e r a ti o n d i d y o u m a k e a ls o th a t w e s e n t h i m t o a
li m i te d s p a c e w h e r e t h e r e w il l b e - th a t t h is c o n tr i t io n c o n t in u e d t o b e
f o r th is - f o r th is f o r m y c a r e e r d ip l o m a t w h o is o r c u r r e n t c a r e e r
20

diplomat who had had a mishap and had also sat and came back.
S o w e h a d n o o th e r w a y o f k e e p i n g h i m a t h o m e a n d d o i n g
n o t h i n g , b u t w e a ls o w e r e c o n s id e r a t e o f t h e f a c t t h a t i t - i t c a n n o t b e
t h a t h e is g o i n g to b e i n a s p a c e w h e r e h e c o u ld h a v e y o u k n o w t h e
o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e p e a t t h e s a m e m is t a k e . W h a t I w a s tr y in g t o e m p h a s i s
C h a ir w a s fr o m w h a t I a m h e a r i n g h e is n o w r e t ir e d e v e n fr o m T h e

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H a g u e w h i le w e a r e s t il l o n th e n o m i n a t i o n .
H e h a s s e r v e d a n d h e h a s c o m e b a c k a n d th e r e is n o - t h e r e
is n o t e l l- t a l e e v id e n c e t h a t h e c o n ti n u e d w i t h t h e p r e B r u c e a n d w e a r e
on the post - post period.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ar e y o u s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e i s n o r e c o r d o r in d ic a t i o n

t h a t h e - a f te r h e h a d b e e n p o s t e d to T h e H a g u e h e r e p e a t e d w h a t h e
had done?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: I do not have …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is - is t h a t w h a t y o u - y o u a r e s a y in g ?
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t is - it is i m p o r t a n t th a t I u n d e r s ta n d …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

What you are saying.

It is important that I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r p e r s p e c t iv e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w - h o w y o u v i e w e d th e w h o l e s i t u a ti o n …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I d o w a n t t o t r y a n d p u t m y s e l f a s f a r a s it is
h u m a n ly p o s s i b le …
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In y o u r p o s i ti o n …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u m a d e t h a t r e c o m m e n d a t io n , b e c a u s e I d o h a v e
d i ff ic u l ti e s w it h i t.

S o t h a t I c a n t e l l y o u , b u t I a m i n t e r e s te d i n

u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u r p e r s p e c t iv e …

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w y o u s a w t h i n g s s o t h a t I c a n s e e h o w t h a t f i ts i n .
S o th a t - th a t i s w h y I k e e p o n a s k i n g y o u …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u m e a n t h is o r y o u m e a n t h a t.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s , s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . C o n ti n u e M s N o r m a n .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . T h a n k y o u
C h a ir a n d t h e n - s o i n o th e r w o r d s i f I - i f I r e a l ly - j u s t t o s u m m a r is e
10

t h e a n s w e r y o u h a v e g i v e n t o t h a t M i n i s te r i s t h a t th e f a c t th a t h e h a d
a b u s e d p r e v i o u s ly d i p l o m a t ic p o w e r s t h a t h e h a d w a s n o t a f a c t o r th a t t h a t y o u c o n s i d e r e d w h e n y o u p r e p a r e d y o u r s u b m is s i o n , b e c a u s e
a c c o r d i n g t o y o u t h e r e h a d b e e n c h a r g e s . H e h a d s e r v e d h is s a n c ti o n
s o to s p e a k ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I f y o u - if w e lo o k a t a ll t h e

n o m i n e e s . E v e n t h o s e , b e c a u s e w h e n c o u n tr i e s d e c l in e a n o m i n e e t h e y
d o n o t d o it in w r i t in g . I t is l ik e i f y o u a p p ly f o r v is a . T h e c o u n t r y - t h e
r e c e i v i n g c o u n tr y w o u l d n o t p u t i t o n y o u r p a s s p o r t to s a y y o u a r e n o t
p a s s i n g h e r e , b u t p o s t t h e s a n c t io n I h a d n o e v i d e n c e - I s t il l d o n o t
20

h a v e - th a t h e h a d n o t l e a r n e d , b u t a ls o t h e r e is n o t a s i n g l e n o m i n e e
t h a t e v e n a s a r e c e iv in g c o u n tr y w h e r e t h e y w i ll s a y h e r e a r e t h e g o o d
t h i n g s a b o u t M a i te . H e r e a r e t h e s i n s .
I t is fo r t h e r e c e i v i n g c o u n tr y to s a y w e c a n n o t r e c e iv e s o M a i te b e c a u s e o f t h e f o l lo w in g , b u t t h a t W a te r k l o o f s a g a w a s a l l o f t h e
c o u n tr y.

It was known.

It was not a top secret.

Page 88 of 153

He had been

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
suspended.

He had served.

W e h a d p u t a l e tt e r in h i s f il e .

T h e s ix

m o n th s h a v e p a s s e d a n d a s w e a r e s i tt i n g h e r e I d o n o t h a v e e v i d e n c e
o f h i m h a v i n g d o n e o r a b u s e d o r d i d th is o r th a t .
I w a s tr y in g to s a y C h a ir n o m i n e e s f r o m c o u n tr y A t o E
in c l u d i n g S o u t h A f r ic a d o n o t s a y th e s e a r e t h e g o o d t h i n g s t h a t
s o m e b o d y h a s d o n e . Th e s e a r e t h e b a d t h i n g s h e h a s d o n e . I t is fo r
t h e i n te r n a l m a c h i n e r y to s a y s o i f w e s a i d w e h a v e s u s p e n d e d s o a n d
s o . H e h a s d o n e t h is .
P o s t t h a t w h a t w e d o w i th t h e e x p e r ie n c e w h e n it is
10

n e c e s s a r y fo r u s t o u t il is e t h a t . H e r e w e a r e a l s o r e fe r r i n g t o t h e j o i n t
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s th a t d i d n o t s a y fir e h i m .

That did not say send

h i m t o ja il . N o n e o f t h e p r o c e s s e s s a i d h e c o u l d n o t c o n t in u e b e in g a
DDG.
S o i f h e q u a li f ie d t o c o n t i n u e b e i n g a D D G w e s a w n o r e a s o n
w h y h e c o u l d n o t - w e c o u l d n o t u ti lis e h is e x p e r i e n c e in t h a t s p a c e fo r
t h a t t i m e . L ik e I w a s s a y i n g e a r l ie r o n C h a ir w i th h u m il i ty p o s t t h a t i f
t h e g a te s w e r e c lo s e d in t h e o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts I a m s u r e w e w o u l d b e
s p e a k i n g o f a d i ffe r e n t th i n g t o d a y, b e c a u s e p r o t o c o l - a s I e n t e r e d y o u r
gates here - here I am.
20

This is protocol of your building.

S o i f I c a n o b s e r v e t h is ,

b e c a u s e y o u r s t a ff s a y s s o . T h e r e is n o w a y I c o u l d b r i n g m y o w n e v e n
a s a M in is t e r.

I h a v e t o c o m p l y.

S o a ll d e p a r t m e n ts a ls o h a v e t h e i r

o w n r u l e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s . I f y o u a l l w e r e to k e e p t h e m t ie d I c a n n o t
w o r k i n t h e r e a n d s a y I a m M i n is te r o f W o m a n , Yo u t h a n d P e o p l e w it h
D i s a b i li t ie s .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
D o n o t a s k m e t o b r i n g t h is a n d I g e t i n h e r e . I w a s s h o w n s i t
here.

Yo u w ill h a v e t e a h e r e .

G o th e r e .

Wa i t .

T h i s is p r o t o c o l i n

short.
CHAIRPERSON: I - I …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Pr o fe s s io n a l is m

it

is

p r o f e s s i o n a li s m , b e c a u s e i f a ll o u r c iv il s e r v a n ts w e r e t o d o n o t h i n g
a ft e r d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e d u r e s .

W e w o u l d h a v e n o b o d y w o r k in g .

If w e

w e r e t o f o l lo w a ls o S o u t h A f r i c a n l a w s a n d l a b o u r l a w s a n d o u r
C o n s t i tu t io n a n d a b id e b y i t . W e a r e g u i d e d b y t h e l e a d e r s h i p .
10

W e a r e g u i d e d b y t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a n d o u r la b o u r l a w s , b u t
a ls o - s o w e - w e a r e u n a b l e t o p u n is h p o s t p u n is h m e n t . T h i s is w h e r e
I h u m b ly s u b m it m y a p p r e c ia t io n o f t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s N o r m a n I t h o u g h t y o u r q u e s t i o n w a s a b o u t th e f a c t
t h a t th e - M r K o l o a n e ’s r o l e i n th e Wa t e r k l o o f la n d i n g …
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s w a s n o t m e n ti o n e d i n

t h is le t t e r to t h e P r e s i d e n t …
20

A D V N O R M A N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t. Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - a n d m a y b e th e M i n is t e r h a s a n s w e r e d .

m a y b e i t i s j u s t th a t s h e w e n t w i d e r, b u t …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u s e e h o w y o u t a k e i t f u r th e r.

Page 90 of 153

That

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u M i n is t e r. T h a t - th a t a n s w e r y o u h a v e g i v e n
r e l a t e s to n o w c o m m u n ic a ti n g t o th e o u t s i d e w o r ld …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN: What he had done …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

B u t t h e n i n s o fa r a s t h e P r e s id e n t i s c o n c e r n e d ,

b e c a u s e t h e p o r t i o n th a t I r e a d o u t i n t h e s a n c t io n r e la t e s t o h i m h a d
10

a b u s e d h is - h i s d ip l o m a tic p o w e r s a n d a ls o h a v in g a b u s e d th e n a m e o f
t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d M i n is t e r s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
ADV NORMAN:

I n t h a t r e g a r d w a s th e r e a r e a s o n w h y y o u d i d n o t

p l a c e t h a t in f o r m a t io n b e f o r e t h e P r e s i d e n t ? I k n o w y o u h a v e a n s w e r e d
t h a t i t w a s k n o w n c o u n tr y w i d e , b u t i n y o u r s u b m is s i o n n o w a s a
M i n is t e r …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
ADV NORMAN:

W a s i t n o t s o m e t h in g t h a t y o u s a id y o u w o u l d s a y to

t h e P r e s i d e n t ? I w o u l d a ls o w a n t y o u t o c o n s i d e r th is . Th is is t h e m a n
20

t h a t h a s a c tu a l ly a b u s e d y o u n a m e , b u t I w a n t - I - I w o u l d r e c o m m e n d
t h a t y o u p la c e h i m i n T h e H a g u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In o th e r w o r d s i f I c a n a d d …
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To - t o t h a t q u e s t i o n . W h a t - w h a t c o u n s e l is s a y i n g

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is d i d y o u n o t c o n s i d e r i t a p p r o p r i a te o r n e c e s s a r y t o i n f o r m th e
P r e s i d e n t t h a t t h is p e r s o n th a t y o u w e r e r e c o m m e n d i n g f o r a p p o in t m e n t
t o r e c e iv e t h is h o n o u r t h a t y o u ta lk e d a b o u t .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e p r e s e n t th e P r e s i d e n t …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e c o u n tr y o u ts i d e S o u t h A f r ic a .

Did you not

c o n s i d e r i t n e c e s s a r y t o b r in g i t t o h is a t te n ti o n t h a t t h is p e r s o n y o u
a r e r e c o m m e n d i n g i s s o m e b o d y w h o p l a y e d t h is p a r tic u la r r o l e in
10

r e g a r d t o t h e W a te r k l o o f l a n d in g w h ic h w a s s u c h a b i g to p ic …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

And then you could say if you so choose, but

n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h a t I r e c o m m e n d t h a t y o u a p p o i n t h i m b e c a u s e o f A , B ,
C, D.

Yo u d i d n o t s a y th a t h e r e a n d t h e q u e s t io n i s d i d y o u n o t

c o n s i d e r th a t i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t o p l a c e t h a t b e f o r e th e Pr e s i d e n t . S o
t h a t th e Pr e s id e n t h a s a - h a d a f u l l p ic t u r e o f t h i s p e r s o n y o u w e r e
r e c o m m e n d i n g h e s h o u ld g iv e th is s p e c i a l - th is h o n o u r t o r e p r e s e n t
h i m i n a n o t h e r c o u n tr y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
20

C h a ir t h e q u e s t i o n y o u h a d - y o u

a r e p u t ti n g t o m e i t i s w h a t I h a d a lr e a d y r e s p o n d e d t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B u t - b u t le t m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e r e p e a t.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Let me …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t m e a n s I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d i t .

Page 92 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Ye s .

N o m i n a t io n s a r e s t a n d a r d ,

b u t d is c u s s io n s a b o u t n a m e s a r e a l s o - lik e I s a i d e a r li e r o n - if w e p u t
y o u r n a m e - i f y o u a p p ly fo r a v is a y o u s ti ll n e e d th e p a s s p o r t . I f w e
s t a m p y o u k n o w y o u a n - a n u n d e s ir a b l e p e r s o n . Th e c o u n tr y t h a t h a d
is s u e d t h e p a s s p o r t h a s t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o s a y u n d e s i r a b le o r t o - o r
t h e in d i v i d u a l c a n a l s o s a y I h a d s e r v e d m y d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s .
S o b e y o n d th e p u n is h m e n t w h a t o t h e r p u n is h m e n t - a l l I a m
tr y i n g t o s a y is t h a t n o m in a ti o n l e t te r s a r e s t a n d a r d .

It is a b o u t t h e

c r e d e n t ia ls o f t h e p e r s o n y o u a r e n o m i n a ti n g . T h e tr e s p a s s e r s a r e t h e
10

o n e s t h a t w e d is c u s s . S o t h e r e w a s a b s o l u te ly n o t h i n g s e c r e t a b o u t th e
Wa t e r k l o o f i s s u e a n d th a t t h e j o i n t d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s a n d h a s g o n e
t h r o u g h a ll t h e p r o c e s s e s a b o u t h i m a n d h e h a d c o m e b a c k n o w a s a so - you see.
W e - c a n w e tr u s t a p e r s o n w i t h b e in g a D D G i n a d e p a r t m e n t
a n d n o t h a v e r e c o m m e n d e d f ir i n g h i m b u t f in d i t d i ffic u l t to n o m i n a te
h i m . T h e Pr e s i d e n t h a d a ll t h e p o w e r s t o s a y n o t th is o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f y o u s a y t o m e y o u d id n o t i n c l u d e t h a t p a r t i n
y o u r l e t te r t o th e P r e s i d e n t n a m e ly A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e ’s r o l e in t h e
Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d i n g in c l u d i n g w h a t h e w a s f o u n d g u il ty o f i n t h e

20

d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s a n d t h a t h e p l e a d e d g u il ty t o t h e t h r e e c h a r g e s w h a t th o s e c h a r g e s w e r e .
I f y o u s a y I d i d n o t in c l u d e i t i n th e le t t e r, b e c a u s e p r i o r t o
w r i t in g th e l e tt e r I h a d a d is c u s s i o n w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t w h e r e I in f o r m e d
h i m o f a ll o f t h o s e th in g s . T h e r e f o r e I d i d n o t s e e t h e n e e d t o p u t i t i n
t h e l e t t e r. I t i s o n e t h i n g , b e c a u s e th e n y o u a r e t e l li n g m e I d i d in f o r m

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t h e P r e s i d e n t o f a l l o f t h o s e t h i n g s , b u t n o t i n th e l e t te r.
I n a d is c u s s i o n . I f y o u s a y n o I d i d n o t t e l l th e P r e s i d e n t a l l
o f t h o s e t h i n g s e v e n v e r b a ll y a n d I d i d n o t p u t i t i n t h e l e tt e r, b e c a u s e I
b e li e v e d th a t h e k n e w t h o s e fa c ts , b e c a u s e o f A , B , C , D w h a t e v e r A , B ,
C , D is .

T h e n I u n d e r s t a n d a s w e ll .

S o t h e q u e s t i o n r e l a te s to y o u r

o w n j u d g m e n t o f w h a t to te ll t h e P r e s i d e n t b e f o r e h e c o u l d m a k e s u c h a
d e c is i o n , b u t a ls o i t w ill - i t r e la t e s t o w h a t d i d t h e P r e s i d e n t k n o w
a b o u t M r K o l o a n e ’s r o l e i n th e W a te r k l o o f la n d i n g b e f o r e h e a p p r o v e d
h is a p p o in t m e n t h i m s e l f .
10

D i d h e k n o w t h a t h e p l e a d e d g u i l ty t o th e s e c h a r g e s ? D i d h e
k n o w t h a t h e h a d b e e n f o u n d g u il ty a n d t h e r e h a d b e e n s a n c t io n o r d id
h e n o t k n o w a b o u t t h a t , b e c a u s e i t m a y b e t h a t p e o p le m i g h t k n o w w h a t
is i n th e p u b lic d o m a i n , b u t t h a t d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s m i g h t n o t h a v e
b e e n i n t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n . I a m n o t s u r e . S o th a t …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is - th a t is w h e r e I w o u ld lik e y o u t o c la r i fy.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

C h a i r l e t m e j u s t w i t h h u m il i ty

r e p e a t th a t a n o mi n a ti o n l e t t e r i s p r o c e d u r a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A n o m in a ti o n l e t t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h a t w e f ir m ly w r i t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

It is a - it i s a p r o c e s s , b u t e a c h

in d i v i d u a l g e ts d is c u s s e d , b u t w h e n y o u w r i t e a n o m i n a ti o n l e t t e r a s a

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M i n is t e r. Yo u a r e s a y i n g t h e t h i n g s t h a t y o u t h i n k th e p e r s o n w h o c a n
d o i n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r a r e a . S o te ll th e P r e s i d e n t , r e mi n d t h e Pr e s i d e n t
a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s e s . Ye s .
E v e r y P r e s id e n t h a s t o b e r e m i n d e d o f w h o M a i t e is .

She

s e r v e d a s a n M E C in L i m p o p o . Th is is h e r r o l e . T h is i s h e r - s o i t - i t
w a s n o t h i d d e n . S o i t w a s n o t - h e w a s n o t a p p o in t e d i n s e c r e t . C h a ir
w e a ls o s a id e a r li e r o n p o s t n o m i n a t io n t h e r e is a s ix m o n t h p e r i o d
w h e r e th e H e a d o f S t a t e c a n c h a n g e h is m i n d .
H e i s n o t o b l ig e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n o m i n a t io n . I n f a c t a
10

n o m i n a ti o n i s a s u g g e s t io n . H e c a n s a y n o t o a n y b o d y. L i k e - a s h e
a p p o i n ts C a b in e t . H e c a n s a y n o . I a m p u t ti n g t h i s o n e h e r e , t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e - w h e th e r h e s a y s n o o r y e s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON: Depends on what he knows …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t h e is to ld .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t h e p a r t ic u l a r c a n d id a te .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e n c e th e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e q u e s ti o n . W h y is i t t h a t
y o u d i d n o t i n y o u r l e t te r o f r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t s e e i t
n e c e s s a r y to te ll th e Pr e s id e n t t h a t th is p e r s o n t h a t I a m r e c o m m e n d in g
h a s t h e f o l l o w in g th i n g s t h a t m a y b e s e e n a s n e g a t iv e , b u t h e r e a r e my
r e a s o n s w h y.
T h a t n o t w it h s t a n d i n g I a m r e c o m m e n d i n g t h a t y o u s h o u l d

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appoint.

S o th a t y o u m a k e s u r e th a t th e P r e s i d e n t h a s a f u l l p ic t u r e

a b o u t t h is p e r s o n w h o m u s t i f a p p o i n t e d r e p r e s e n t h i m in a n o t h e r
c o u n tr y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
n o m i n a ti o n s .

Chairperson we have had many

N o t a ll o f t h e m h a v e g o tt e n ( in d is ti n c t) a c r o s s t h e

b o r d e r s . S o w h e n w e n o m in a t e w e n o m in a t e a n d w e f e e l t h e d is c u s s i o n
a b o u t t h e n a m e . T h a t i s a d is c u s s i o n w it h t h e H e a d o f S t a t e s o t h a t h e
h a s f u ll p ic t u r e - a s C h a ir p e r s o n is a s k i n g - o f w h o is g o i n g w h e r e .
S o t h e n o m i n a t i o n i t is n o t a n a p p o i n t m e n t , b e c a u s e M i n is te r s
10

do not have …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o . T h a t I u n d e r s t a n d M in is t e r.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: That I understand.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: So - so the - your …
CHAIRPERSON: But - but …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Q u e s t io n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Wa s d i d w e te ll th e Pr e s i d e n t o r

remind him?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e - m a y b e w e s h o u l d s ta r t th is . D i d y o u do you accept that when you nominate - when you nominated any
c a n d i d a t e fo r a p p o i n t m e n t a s A m b a s s a d o r t o …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W h e r e v e r.
CHAIRPERSON: A President.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d e d to - y o u g i v e t h e P r e s i d e n t c o n c e r n e d a s
f u ll a p ic t u r e o f t h a t p e r s o n a s p o s s ib le .

O b v i o u s i n t e r m s o f th i n g s

t h a t a r e r e le v a n t .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I d o a c c e p t th a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a p r i n c i p le ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I a ls o k n o w t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A s a p r in c i p l e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : L i k e I s a i d I k e p t r e p e a ti n g t h a t t h e
n o m i n a ti o n le t t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I t is li k e i f I a p p l y f o r a v is a . S o i f
I h a d tr e s p a s s e d s o m e w h e r e . I t is f o r t h e - t h o s e w h o d e a l w i t h is s u e s
o n t h a t l e v e l w h o m u s t s a y tr e s p a s s e r s w il l b e c o m e a p r o b le m a n d i t is
t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f t h e M in is t e r o f D IR C O to a l s o t a lk t o t h e Pr e s id e n t
about each nominee.

20

S o , b u t i t is th e p r e r o g a tiv e o f t h e H e a d o f S t a te t o s a y y e s o r
n o . H e c a n s a y y e s t o t h e n o m i n a ti o n a n d t w o m o n th s l a t e r s a y s n o t o
t h e a c tu a l a p p o i n t m e n t . T h a t is h is p r e r o g a t iv e . S o t h e n o m i n a t i o n i t
is n o t th e e n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

No, no I understand that.

L e t m e a s k th e

q u e s t io n p e r t i n e n tl y. D i d y o u a t a n y s ta g e b e fo r e t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h e

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
ti m e a p p r o v e d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r K o l o a n e a s A m b a s s a d o r f o r Th e
N e t h e r l a n d s ? D id y o u a t a n y s t a g e in f o r m th e P r e s i d e n t t h a t t h is is t h e
m a n w h o p l a y e d q u i t e a s i g n i fic a n t r o le i n t h e W a t e r k lo o f l a n d in g a n d
t h a t th is m a n h a d b e e n s u b je c t e d to a d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s ?
H e h a d p l e a d e d g u i l ty to t h r e e c h a r g e s w h ic h i n c l u d e d
m is r e p r e s e n t in g f a c ts a n d w h ic h i n c l u d e d t h a t h e h a d fa ls e l y to l d
o ffic i a l - o ff ic ia ls i n th e D e fe n c e F o r c e t h a t th e P r e s i d e n t k n e w a b o u t
t h e W a t e r k l o o f la n d i n g o r h a d g iv e n i n s tr u c ti o n s a n d t h a t t h e M i n i s te r o f
Tr a n s p o r t a t th e ti m e a n d t h e M i n i s t e r o f D e f e n c e a t t h e t i m e h a d n o
10

o b j e c ti o n o r a l s o s a id t h e y h a d b e e n in s t r u c t e d .
H e p l e a d e d g u i l ty to - to t h a t . H e w a s f o u n d g u il ty b y - i n a
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g .

D id y o u e v e r p l a c e - o b v i o u s l y n o t n e c e s s a r y i n

t h e s e w o r d s t h a t I a m u s i n g , b u t th e s u b s t a n c e o f w h a t I a m s a y i n g d i d y o u p l a c e t h a t b e f o r e t h e Pr e s id e n t i n a - i n a d is c u s s i o n o n a n y
o th e r f o r m ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

C h a ir,

a ll

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a r e o r w e r e d is c u s s e d .

nominees

in c l u d i n g

Th e n o m i n a t io n l e t t e r

n o r m a l ly d o e s n o t c a r r y a ll t h e d e ta ils a b o u t a n i n d iv id u a l b e i t …
CHAIRPERSON:
20

I a m s o r r y. D id y o u s a y n o r m a lly c a r r i e s o r d i d y o u

say does …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Does not …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o r m a ll y d o e s n o t c a r r y ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Does not …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C a r r y, b u t th e d is c u s s io n d o .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : E a r l i e r o n w e a ls o r e f e r r e d t o h o w
o p e n w e a r e o n n o m i n a t io n s o f A m b a s s a d o r s th a t e v e n t h o s e w h o a r e
b r o u g h t b y p o l it ic a l p a r ti e s a r e b r o u g h t i n .

The check - you do not

w r i t e t h e c h e c k - c h e c k li s t o n a n o m i n a ti o n , b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e o t h e r
a g e n c ie s w h o h a v e to d o t h e c h e c k l is t o n t h e M i n i s te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M i n i s t e r n o I m u s t i n te r r u p t y o u .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : My q u e s ti o n is s i m p l e .
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you or did you not … ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: I did.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t a n y s t a g e in f o r m t h e P r e s i d e n t o f i t?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: I did.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e w a s f u l ly a w a r e …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: He was.
CHAIRPERSON: Of who Koloane was …

20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t h e is - h e h a d g o n e t h r o u g h a p r o c e s s . H e
h a d p l e a d e d g u i l ty b l a h , b l a h , b l a h .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e k n e w a b o u t th a t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s , s ir.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a n k y o u . S o - s o t h e f a c t t h a t y o u d id n o t p u t i t
in t h e le t t e r d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t y o u d i d n o t te ll h i m ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . T h a n k y o u M in is t e r.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : N o C h a ir.
ADV NORMAN:

T h a n k - t h a n k y o u C h a i r a n d t h e n j u s t m a y b e la s tly

M i n is t e r t h e r e is a t p a g e 5 0 if y o u j u s t t u r n o v e r t h e p a g e .

T h e r e is

t h a t - t h e a g r e e m e n t is t h a t w h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o fr o m t h e - fr o m T h e
H a g u e . A t p a g e 5 0 M in is t e r th e r e i s fr o m - d o y o u h a v e i t ?
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Page 50.
ADV NORMAN: (Intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 5-0 - 5-0?
ADV NORMAN: 5-0.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k s o m e b o d y m u s t a s s is t t h e M i n i s t e r.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . G o a n d a s s is t t h e M i n is t e r.
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV NORMAN:

20

Is - is t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t th a t y o u r e fe r r e d t o e a r li e r

t h a t t h e n a f t e r t h e n o m in e e s t h e n - t h a t t h e r e c e i v i n g c o u n t r y t h e n
sends that - that agreement to South Africa?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n a t th e la s t p a r a g r a p h a t p a g e
- i f y o u g o b a c k t o y o u r s t a t e m e n t M i n is t e r - p a g e 1 6 . Yo u h a v e a ls o
m e n ti o n e d

o th e r

factors

th a t

made

Page 100 of 153

you

recommend

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e . A l th o u g h y o u h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t a s p e c t , b u t I
w o u ld w a n t y o u t o ju s t p u t t h o s e o n r e c o r d s o t h a t w e d o n o t le a v e o u t
a n y th in g i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y. D id y o u p a g e 1 6 ?
A D V N O R M A N : B a c k to t h e s ta t e m e n t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV NORMAN: Paragraph 16 - 1-6.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W h ic h - w h ic h s ta t e m e n t .
A D V N O R M A N : Yo u r - th is o n e - th is o n e .
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O h . T h is o n e ? Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a t o n e . Ye s y o u r s t a te m e n t .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Paragraph 16.
A D V N O R M A N : I - I a p o l o g is e . S o r r y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : A t p a g e - th a t w il l b e t h e l a s t p a g e o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hu-uh.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h e r e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I am - I am sorry M s Norman.

s t a te m e n t ?
20

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV NORMAN: That is page 3 and paragraph 16.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 101 of 153

Page 3 of the

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u . S o c o u l d y o u j u s t r e a d o u t th o s e a r e t h e
c o n s i d e r a ti o n s t h a t y o u p l a c e d i n p a r a g r a p h s 1 6 , 1 7 a n d 1 8 .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

C h a ir, I h a v e s a i d i n th e a ffi d a v it

that:
“ I t m u s t b e n o te d th a t M r K o l o a n e w a s t h e m o s t t h e m o s t e li g i b l e a m o n g s t D D G s s i n c e h e w a s n o t
a s s ig n e d t o a n y d e p a r t m e n t a l b r a n c h .
h is

n o m i n a ti o n

could

not

have

Therefore

a ff e c t e d

the

d e p a r t m e n t’s o p e r a ti o n o r a n y v a c a n c i e s w i t h i n t h e
10

d e p a r t m e n t. A t th a t t i m e h e a ls o h a d a t o p s e c r e t
c le a r a n c e c e r ti fi c a t e .

Th e r e fo r e m e e ti n g a ll th e

criteria for the placement.

When Mr Koloane was

n o m i n a te d o r r e c o m m e n d e d fo r th e p o s ti n g t o Th e
H a g u e h e h a d a lr e a d y c o m p l e t e d h is s a n c ti o n . ”
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I j u s t w a n t to e m p h a s i s e …
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: The paragraph 17 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: For the record.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Thank you.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o - o h , y o u - y o u w a n t to h i g h - h i g h li g h t t h a t .
“ A t t h a t ti m e h e a ls o h a d a to p s e c r e t c le a r a n c e

Page 102 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
c e r t if ic a te .

T h e r e f o r e m e e t in g a ll t h e c r it e r i a f o r

the placement.”
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s s i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V N O R M A N : A n d - a n d Mi n is t e r o n e t h in g I d i d n o t a s k y o u r i g h t a t
t h e o u ts e t w h e n y o u s ta r t e d te s t i fy in g w a s w h e t h e r th is is y o u r
s t a te m e n t , b u t c o u l d y o u d o t h a t n o w ?
10

T h a t - is t h a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e

t h a t a p p e a r s th e r e ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

C h a ir p e r s o n , th is i s a c o p y o f a n

a ffi d a v i t o f a s a w i t n e s s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : To t h i s h e a r i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C h a ir e d b y y o u r g o o d s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h a t …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A n d th e s i g n a t u r e is m i n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is y o u r s …
20

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: And …
ADV NORMAN:

And

you

deposed

1 8 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 9 in C a p e To w n ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s s i r.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .

Page 103 of 153

to

that

a ffi d a v it

on

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV NORMAN: That is the evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M in is t e r I - I h a d t h o u g h t th a t w e w o u ld f in is h e a r li e r
t h a n - th a n lu n c h ti m e . W e h a v e ta k e n l o n g e r t h a n I t h o u g h t a n d m a y b e
I a l s o c o n tr ib u t e d t o t h a t , b u t w e r e a c h t h e l u n c h ti m e a t a t i m e w h e n I
s t il l h a v e s o m e q u e s ti o n s to - t o p u t t o y o u . S o I t h o u g h t w e w o u l d b e
a b l e t o fi n is h b e f o r e l u n c h a n d w e w i ll d i s p e r s e . S o - s o w e a r e g o in g
10

t o ta k e th e l u n c h b r e a k , b u t I w o u l d lik e u s to c o m e b a c k . Is t h a t fi n e
with you?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w e - w e a r e g o in g t o c o m e b a c k a t 2 o ’ c l o c k ,

because there
ADV NORMAN: (Intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a r e s t il l q u i t e s o m e th i n g s t h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o
hear the Minister on.
20

A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e a d j o u r n . W e w i ll c o m e b a c k a t 2 o ’ c lo c k .
We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON:

. . .o f w h a t a t o p s e c r e t c le a r a n c e c e r ti f ic a te s a y s

about a person who holds it.

What is your understanding of what

p o s s e s s i o n a t o p s e c r e t c l e a r a n c e c e r t i fi c a t e m e a n s f o r t h e h o l d e r o f
t h a t c e r ti f ic a te ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I t m e a n s … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k th e a ir c o n m i g h t b e c r e a t i n g s o m e p r o b le m s , i f
y o u c a n l o w e r i t a li t t le b i t , m a y b e le t m e r e p e a t th e q u e s t i o n M i n i s te r
so you can understand.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o m y q u e s t io n i s w h a t i s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t

it m e a n s a b o u t a p e r s o n i f it is s a id h e o r s h e h a s a t o p s e c r e t
c le a r a n c e c e r t i fi c a t e , w h a t d o e s t h a t c o n v e y t o t h o s e w h o k n o w t h a t
t h is p e r s o n h a s g o t th a t c e r ti f ic a t e ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I t w ill b e t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t o r

t h e a g e n c y t h a t d o e s t h i s w o r k o f c h e c k i n g h a d d o n e t h e ir j o b o n t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n .

For every senior SMS you are appointed after the

a p p o i n t m e n t t h e n t h e r e ’s a th o r o u g h g o in g o n y o u r s t a tu s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t t h a t’s w h a t I w a n t , o b v i o u s l y t h e r e ’s s o m e

w o r k t h a t t h e p e o p l e w h o i s s u e th e c e r t if ic a te m u s t d o b e fo r e th e y
20

is s u e i t b u t I w a n t t o tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d i n th e c o n t e x t o f th e p o s i t io n
o f A m b a s s a d o r b u t m a y b e t h a t a p p l i e s to e v e r y o n e w h o g e ts th e
c e r t if ic a te w h e t h e r i t m e a n s y o u a r e h ig h l y e d u c a te d , w h e th e r i t m e a n s
y o u a r e a p e r s o n o f i n t e g r i ty, w h e th e r it m e a n s y o u a r e h a r d - w o r k i n g ,
w h e t h e r i t m e a n s y o u a r e v e r y p a r tic u la r a b o u t d o i n g y o u r j o b th e r i g h t
w a y.

S o I’ m w a n t in g to g e t , w h e n y o u e m p h a s is e a s y o u d o t h is

Page 105 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
r e q u ir e m e n t , t h e r e m u s t b e s o m e t h in g th a t is i m p o r ta n t a b o u t i t i n t h e
c o n te x t o f a n A m b a s s a d o r a n d I ’ m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d , e x a c tly w h a t
that is.
MINISTER

NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Yo u

have

to

have

all

t h o s e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s a l l o f th e a b o v e ?

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

A ll o f th e a b o v e b u t a l s o it ’s d o n e

r e g u la r ly, it ’s n o t li k e – b e c a u s e … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Yo u g o t i t te n y e a r s a g o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Te n y e a r s a g o i t’s o k a y, i f I’ m

g iv e n a n o th e r a s s i g n m e n t I m u s t b e c h e c k e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

And I must be cleared.

Ye s .

O k a y.

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

T h a t ’s w h y i t i s s a i d a t th a t ti m e

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d h o w r e g u la r ly d o t h e y d o – r e - d o th e m d o y o u

k n o w o r a t t h a t ti m e d i d y o u k n o w h o w r e g u la r ly th e y w o u l d d o t h e m
if … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

F o r e v e r y a p p o in t m e n t .

O k a y.

Page 106 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER

NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Before

the

Ambassador

d e s i g n a t e d , le a v e s t h e c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Because we had, had some areas

w h e r e w e h a d t o b r i n g b a c k s o m e b o d y w h o w a s a lr e a d y o n a p o s t in g
and it wasn’t cheap.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

S o e v e r y n o m i n e e h a d t o w a it fo r

t h a t c le a r a n c e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O h s o w h e n y o u h a v e b e e n i s s u e d it i n r e g a r d t o a

p a r t ic u l a r a p p o i n t m e n t i t d o e s n ’ t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

F o r e v e r.

T h e r e is g o i n g to b e – t h e y ’ ll d o a n o t h e r c h e c k i n g

a ft e r a y e a r o r t w o o r t h r e e , i t j u s t m e a n s y o u h a v e i t u n ti l t h e r e is
a n o t h e r a p p o i n t m e n t , i f th e r e is a n o t h e r a p p o in t m e n t t h e n y o u m u s t b e
subjected again.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

N o e v e n i f y o u w o u ld h a v e g o t te n

it a y e a r e a r li e r, i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o a n e w a s s i g n m e n t t h e y c o m e b a c k ,
y e s b e c a u s e w e j u s t f o u n d it t o b e i m p o r t a n t.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o w a ll o f t h e a b o v e th a t w e t a lk e d a b o u t t h a t

y o u ’v e g o t t o h a v e t h e m t h a t’s in te r m s o f a to p s e c r e t c l e a r a n c e
c e r t if ic a te b u t I t a k e i t t h a t a ls o f o r b e i n g a p p o i n t e d a s A m b a s s a d o r a l l
o f t h e a b o v e a p p li e s t h e r e a s w e l l, is th a t r ig h t , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Ye s , o k a y n o w i n y o u r o w n w o r d s a r e y o u a b le t o s a y

Page 107 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
t o m e – t o t e l l m e w h a t th e fa c to r s o r r e q u ir e m e n t s a r e th a t a r e
e x p e c te d t o b e t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t b e f o r e a p e r s o n i s r e c o m m e n d e d t o
t h e P r e s id e n t f o r a p p o i n t m e n t a s A m b a s s a d o r. N o w I k n o w th a t m a y b e ,
a l l o f th e a b o v e th a t w e h a v e s a id a p p ly b u t I j u s t w a n t y o u t o , i n y o u r
o w n w o r d s to s a y, t h e s e a r e t h e fa c to r s o r r e q u ir e m e n ts t h a t , a s f a r a s
y o u u n d e r s to o d a t t h e t i m e th a t y o u w e r e Mi n is te r o f I n t e r n a ti o n a l
R e l a t i o n s w e r e a p p l ic a b l e ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Th a t y o u c a n s t a n d f o r y o u r

c o u n tr y a g a i n s t a ll o d d s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t y o u c a n s e r v e y o u r c o u n tr y … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Yo u c a n s e r v e a n d s ta n d f o r t h e

in t e r e s t – f o r th e N a t io n a l i n t e r e s t o f y o u r c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

A l l o d d s , o k a y s o t h a t ’s t h e o v e r a l l o n e ?

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Against all odds.

T h a t’s t h e o v e r a l l .

O k a y b u t y o u s a y i n c lu d e d in i t … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

In c l u d e d in th a t C h a ir I d i d s a y

e a r l ie r o n t h a t i f w e k n o w t h a t y o u c a n o r y o u h a v e a c c e p t e d a n a ir l in e
20

ti c k e t a t – n o t t w o y e a r s a g o b u t a s y o u w e r e s e r v i n g i n th a t f o r e i g n
c o u n tr y y o u c o m e b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

If you accepted a?

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

A n a ir l in e t ic k e t f r o m C a p e To w n

to Durban.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y, y o u c o m e b a c k i m m e d i a te ly ?

Page 108 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u c o m e b a c k .

Ye s b e c a u s e t h a t ’s u n a c c e p ta b l e .

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

Ye s b e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t b e – y o u

a r e a g u e s t y o u a r e t h e r e to b u il d r e l a ti o n s y e s e v e n i f y o u ’r e a
v e g e t a r ia n a n d t h e y g i v e y o u P o r k , y o u f in d a w a y to s a y I ’ m a l le r g ic s o
that you don’t sound – yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a lr ig h t . S o t h e r e m a y b e m a n y f a c t o r s t h a t c o m e

in b u t th e o v e r a ll o n e is w h e t h e r t h a t p e r s o n c a n s e r v e t h e c o u n tr y a n d
s t a n d f o r h is o r h e r c o u n t r y a g a i n s t a l l o d d s .
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y, n o t h a t ’s fi n e . N o w I j u s t w a n t u s t o g o b a c k

t o F F 3 w ill b e w r i t t e n o n th e s p i n e F F 3 a n d t h e n I w a n t u s t o g o t o t h e
d o c u m e n t – th e r u l in g o f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e d i s c i p li n a r y i n q u ir y
r e l a ti n g to – th e o n e r e l a t e s t o s a n c t io n t h e o t h e r o n e r e l a t e s to
w h e t h e r o r n o t Mr K o l o a n e w a s g u i l ty o f t h e c h a r g e s . S o I w a n t u s to
g o t o t h e o n e r e l a ti n g t o w h e th e r h e w a s g u il ty o f t h e c h a r g e s a n d I
t h i n k it is t o b e f o u n d a t p a g e 2 5 o f th a t b u n d l e . I f y o u n e e d a s s is t a n c e
s o m e b o d y c a n c o m e a n d a s s i s t y o u , I th i n k a p p r o a c h t h e M i n is t e r a n d
a s s is t h e r. Yo u ’ v e g o t i t , o k a y.
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W e a lr e a d y d e a lt w i th w h a t t h e c h a r g e s w e r e a n d

t h e y i n c lu d e d c h a r g e tw o w h e r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n r e c o r d e d a t p a r a g r a p h
t e n w h ic h i s a t p a g e 2 6 th a t ,
“ it is a l le g e d t h a t t h e e m p l o y e e m is r e p r e s e n t e d f a c ts in a n
e n d e a v o u r t o p r o c u r e th e il le g a l a n d u n la w fu l a n d / o r w r o n g fu l

Page 109 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
la n d i n g ” ,
A n d t h a t r e fe r s t o t h e l a n d i n g o f th e c o m m e r c ia l a i r c r a f t a t
Wa t e r k l o o f . I n p a r a g r a p h t h r e e o n t h a t p a g e , t h e C h a i r p e r s o n r e c o r d s
s o m e o b j e c ti o n t h a t Mr K o lo a n e s e e m s to h a v e e x p r e s s e d a n d th e n i n –
a t p a g e 2 7 h e r e f e r s to t h e fa c t th a t t h e e m p lo y e r r e p r e s e n t a t iv e
a r g u e d t h a t t h e c h a r g e s a r e a s s t a t e d a b o v e a n d th e e v i d e n c e in
s u p p o r t o f t h e c h a r g e s w a s in t e n d e d t o s h o w t h e e m p l o y e e th e
evidence that was going to be led to prove each charge, then under
four it says,
10

“ t h e p a r ti e s a s k e d f o r th e a d j o u r n m e n t o f t h e p r o c e e d in g s i n
o r d e r t o d e l i b e r a t e a m o n g t h e m s e lv e s o n th e p o in t r a i s e d b y
the employee”,
T h e n a t p a r a g r a p h fi v e – I t h i n k f iv e a n d s ix a r e q u i t e
important and seven he says,
“ w h e n t h e m a t t e r r e s u m e d t h e e m p l o y e e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t h e
is r e a d y t o p l e a d t o t h e c h a r g e s a s c a p t u r e d a b o v e w i th t h e
e x c lu s i o n

of

the

f a c ts

and

evidence

in

support

of

th e

charges”,
And then in six he says,
20

“ T h e e m p l o y e e p le a d e d g u il t y t o a l l th r e e c h a r g e s , I w e n t
t h r o u g h e a c h c h a r g e i n o r d e r to s a t is fy m y s e lf t h a t th e
e m p l o y e e u n d e r s t a n d s t h e e le m e n ts o f e a c h o f th e c h a r g e s ,
t h e e m p l o y e e p e r s is t e d w i th h i s g u il ty p l e a o n e a c h c h a r g e ,
t h e n h e s a y s u n d e r s e v e n , I c o n s e q u e n tl y f i n d t h e e m p lo y e e
g u il ty o f c h a r g e s o n e , t w o , th e e ” .

Page 110 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
N o w i t s e e m s to m e th a t w h a t t h i s t e l ls m e – t e l ls u s is t h a t
A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e p l e a d e d g u i l ty t o , a m o n g o t h e r s , a c h a r g e t h a t h e
h a d m is r e p r e s e n t e d f a c ts i n a n e n d e a v o u r t o p r o c u r e th e i ll e g a l a n d
u n l a w f u l a n d / o r w r o n g f u l l a n d in g .

M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f h is e v id e n c e ,

b e c a u s e h e d i d g iv e e v id e n c e h e r e , I d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o d is p u t e
t h a t p a r t b u t a l s o o n e o f th e t h i n g s th a t h e s a i d w h e n h e w a s g i v i n g
e v i d e n c e h e r e w a s th a t h e a d m i t te d th a t i n e ff e c t , h e h a d t o l d s o m e
o ffic i a ls th a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t k n e w a b o u t t h e a ir c r a f t t h a t w a s g o in g t o
c o m e a n d l a n d o r h a d g i v e n i n s tr u c t io n s o r h a d p u t h i m u n d e r p r e s s u r e .
10

O n e o f t h e s e m i g h t b e w r o n g b u t i n e ff e c t , h e a d m i t te d th a t h e h a d
c o n v e y e d t o c e r t a i n o ff ic ia ls a t W a te r k l o o f t h a t h e – th e P r e s i d e n t k n e w
a b o u t w h a t h e w a s tr y i n g t o g e t th e m t o d o t o f a c i li t a te t h e l a n d i n g o f
t h e a i r c r a f t. N o w – a n d h e s a id h e r e th a t , th a t w a s n o t tr u e , i n o t h e r
w o r d s w h a t h e h a d t o ld t h o s e o ffi c i a l s w a s n o t tr u e .
M y u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t th a t , t h a t ’s w h a t h e a ls o s a i d i n t h e
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r in g , I th in k w h e n h e w a s h e r e h e m a y h a v e s a i d – h e
s a i d t h e s a m e t h i n g a t a n o t h e r fo r u m a n d I c a n ’t r e m e m b e r th e
C o m m i t t e e t h a t h e ta lk e d a b o u t w h a t i t is c a ll e d . N o w i t s e e m s t o m e
t h a t h e h a d b e e n d is h o n e s t in s a y i n g to t h o s e o ff ic i a ls a n y th in g a l o n g

20

t h e l in e s th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d e i th e r a s k e d h i m t o a s s i s t o r h a d p u t
h i m u n d e r p r e s s u r e o r h a d in s t r u c t e d h i m . N o w th a t is o n h is v e r s io n ,
if h e – i f w e t a k e h is v e r s io n , n a m e ly t h e Pr e s i d e n t n e v e r i n s tr u c t e d
m e , th e P r e s i d e n t n e v e r p u t p r e s s u r e o n m e , t h e Pr e s id e n t d id n o t k n o w
a b o u t t h e l a n d in g a s f a r a s I k n o w, t h a t is M r K o l o a n e h e r e b e f o r e m e ,
if t h a t i s tr u e h e h a d s a id s o m e th in g c o n tr a r y t o t h a t , t o th e o ff ic i a l s

Page 111 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
a n d i t s e e m s t o m e th a t h e h a d b e e n d i s h o n e s t , w o u l d t h a t b e y o u r
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t i t a m o u n t e d t o , w h a t h e s a i d , n a m e l y th e
P r e s i d e n t g a v e i n s tr u c ti o n o r k n e w a b o u t t h is b u t th e n h e c o m e s a n d
s a y s , n o t h e P r e s i d e n t d i d n ’ t k n o w a b o u t t h is , I d i d n ’ t s p e a k t h e tr u t h
w h e n I s a i d t h a t t o th e o ff ic ia ls ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t w o u ld b e y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s w e ll ?

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

ti m e ,

a ft e r

the

Ye s .

Ye s C h a ir.

Ye s n o w w a s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a l s o a t t h e
disciplinary

process

that

he

had

a c t u a lly

acted

d is h o n e s t ly b y i n v o k i n g th e n a m e s o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d th e M i n is te r s ,
t h e t w o M i n i s te r s in o r d e r t o t r y a n d g e t th is l a n d in g a p p r o v e d o r
c le a r e d ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
CHAIRPERSON:

M y a n s w e r C h a ir, i s y e s .

Ye s .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B u t t o a d d o n t h a t is th a t , i n f a c t I

r e c a l l n o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e t w o d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s e s , th e o n e i n t h e
department and the joint one.

S o n o n e o f t h e t w o d is c i p l in a r y

p r o c e s s e s h a d s a id le t ’s p u n is h b e y o n d t h is .
20

So because there were

two, one was a DCPS one was a departm ental one, none of them had
c o n c l u d e d t h a t h e n e e d e d t o b e h o w e v e r f ir e d o r y o u k n o w s e n t t o j a i l
o r s o m e th in g . S o w h a t l e g w o u ld I b e s ta n d i n g o n w h e n t h e y s a i d n o w
– h e h a d s e r v e d t h e t e r m h e ’s b a c k i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t s o w h a t d o y o u
d o w i t h t h is D D G b e c a u s e n o n e o f t h o s e t w o p r o c e s s e s c o u l d s tr i p h i m
o f t h e s ta t u s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

Page 112 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON:

H is p o s i ti o n .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

H i s p o s i t io n , s o b e c a u s e I m e a n if

I h a d s t o le n I ’d g o t o j a i l s o t h e p e r s o n c o n f e s s e s , h e s h o w s r e m o r s e
a n d I t h i n k t h a t ’s w h a t w e n e e d , h o w m a n y p e o p l e a r e w e r e h a b i li t a ti n g
in o u r C r i m in a l J u s ti c e S y s te m w h o w e c a n p o in t a t a n d s a y, th a t o n e
w e g a v e a c h a n c e a n d l o o k a t h i m n o w, h e i s s tr a ig h t a n d p r o p e r. S o
w e h a d t o w e i g h t h e t w o b e c a u s e h e r e is a m a n w h o d o e s n ’ t h i d e f r o m
m y s i t ti n g o r m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e h i n d e v e r y w h a te v e r, h e – I w a s
w a t c h in g h i m o n te le v i s i o n w h e n h e w a s … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n h e g a v e e v id e n c e .

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

G a v e e v i d e n c e y e s it w a s t h e

s a m e , s a m e t h a t I a s k e d t h e d a y I s a w h i m , d id y o u r e m e m b e r y o u ’r e
t h e M in is t e r h e c r i e d .

S o I a m n o w h e r e b e fo r e y o u w o n d e r i n g , w h e n

t h e r e w e r e t w o d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s e s w h e n D I R C O d o e s n o t o w n a n
a ir p o r t w h e n t h o s e t w o p r o c e s s e s , t h e J P C S c lu s t e r o n e w a s l ik e a
p a n e l m e e t in g . N o n e c o u l d c o m e o u t w i t h th is m a n h a d c o n f e s s e d t o
w h a t h e h a d d o n e w r o n g , h e h a d n e v e r w a s t e d a n y b o d y ’s t i m e s o w h y
is – a t l e a s t o n e o f th e d is c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s e s n o t s a y i n g , t h is o n e d o n ’ t
t o u c h e v e r a g a in b u t h e m u s t r e m a i n i n h is p o s i ti o n .
20

I t ’s n o t li k e h e

h a d r u n a w a y o r h i d d e n a n y w h e r e , s u s p e n d h e d o e s – t h e r e ’s n o t h in g
t h a t w e s a i d h e m u s t n o t d o o r d o t h a t h e d i d n ’ t d o b u t a ls o t h e p e o p le
who know the law the ones who ran the two processes none of them
s a i d , th is m a n w e d e c i d e h e m u s t n e v e r s e r v e . D i d n o t s a y h e d e s e r v e s
t o b e fi r e d s o t h e w r o n g d o in g it ’s n o t w h a t I c a n e v e r s t a n d u p a n d
d e f e n d b u t I a m s ti ll s a y in g , d i d w e r e h a b i li ta t e h i m , d id w e m a n a g e t o

Page 113 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
– a s a c o u n t r y a s a c o m m u n i ty s q u e e z e s o m e t h i n g g o o d o u t o f t h is , I
t h i n k th a t ’s w h a t w a s t h e [ in d is ti n c t ] a t t h e ti m e y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e ll y o u h a v e g o n e a h e a d t o a p a r t t h a t I w a s

s t il l g o i n g to c o m e t o b u t t h a t ’s f i n e . I ju s t w a n t to r e a d s o m e e x c e r p ts
of how

one

of

the

w it n e s s e s

who

came

here,

R a m a t l h o d i v ie w e d t h is w h o le W a t e r k lo o f la n d i n g .

fo r m e r

M i n is t e r

I ’l l ju s t r e a lly r e a d

s o m e e x c e r p ts fr o m h is e v id e n c e h e s a y s ,
“ n o w m y a t t i tu d e , I d i d n o t k n o w t h e s e p e o p l e , t h e y c a m e i n t o
S o u th A fr ic a a n d o n e d a y I m e t c o r r e c ti o n a l s e r v i c e s t h a t a
10

la n d s a t W a t e r k l o o f A ir Fo r c e B a s e c a r r y in g

wedding

people, wedding people. That for me was the

la s t i n s u lt , I m e a n

it w a s a s t a b a t t h e b a c k f o r t h o s e w h o

died
th e m

because
that

we

and

there
should

were

many who died when I was there

with

foreigners, they come in here

a n d th e n th e y la n d a w e d d i n g c h a r t e r

in o u r A ir F o r c e B a s e .

20

private jet

get

S o w e h a d a m e e t in g o f th e S e c u r i ty C l u s t e r

because I was

s i tt i n g in c o r r e c ti o n a l s e r v i c e s , I t o l d m y f e ll o w

M i n is t e r s t h a t

t h is is t h e l a s t i n s u l t , t h i s c a n n o t h a p p e n in o u r

c o u n tr y f r o m

t h e n in s i d e w e t o ld t h e P r e s i d e n t , d o n o t a t te n d t h a t

wedding,

do not do it because you have just messed up”,
A n d t h e n la t e r o n h e w a s a s k e d w h e t h e r th e P r e s i d e n t d i d

a tt e n d a n d h e s a i d ,
“ N o t o n ly d i d t h e y l a n d t h e r e th e y a c t u a ll y g o t e v e n th e
e s c o r ts o f t h e s e c u r i ty e v e r y t h in g to t h a t p l a c e t h e r e ”
A n d t h e n l a t e r I p u t a q u e s ti o n t o h i m ,
“Was

it

your

u n d e r s ta n d i n g

th a t

Page 114 of 153

the

la n d i n g

of

those

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
aeroplanes

th e r e

could

not

have

happened

w i th o u t

h is

k n o w l e d g e o r a p p r o v a l o r n o t n e c e s s a r il y, I ’ m ju s t a s k in g th a t
b e c a u s e y o u a r e s a y in g th a t y o u s a id t o h i m , y o u k n o w I t h i n k
y o u m u s t te ll m e i f I d i d n o t h e a r y o u p r o p e r ly, y o u s a i d t o
h i m y o u h a v e m e s s e d u p t h is is n o t a c c e p ta b l e .

Th is

is not

d o n e o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t t h e n M i n i s t e r R a m a t l h o d i s a y s ,
w e s a id t o h i m , Mr P r e s i d e n t it is u n a c c e p ta b l e th a t a p r iv a t e
je t c a r r y i n g w e d d i n g p a r ty fr o m a n o th e r c o u n tr y la n d s a t o u r
A ir F o r c e B a s e , w e h a d f o u g h t f o r t h is b a s e to b e u n d e r o u r
10

c o m m a n d s o i t is n o t a c c e p ta b l e , s o d o n o t g r a c e t h i s t h i n g
b y g o i n g t o th e w e d d i n g , i n a d d i t io n t o w h a t h a s a lr e a d y
h a p p e n e d a n d t h e n h e s a y s , I h a d a f e e l in g t h a t i t c o u ld n o t
h a p p e n w i t h o u t h i s k n o w le d g e a n d i n f a c t t h e r e w a s ta lk lik e
that

because

the

Chief

of

Pr o t o c o l

in

th e

Pr e s i d e n c y,

A m b a s s a d o r, I f o r g e t h is s u r n a m e , h e w a s in H o l l a n d n o w
b e c a u s e a f t e r t h a t h e h a d t o b e r e d e p l o y e d t o H o l la n d a n d
t h e n l a te r h e s a y s , s o a p p a r e n t ly th a t f e ll o w g o t a c a ll fr o m
n u m b e r o n e a s th e y c a l l e d h i m t h o s e d a y s a n d th e n h e s a y s ,
t h e n h e a u t h o r is e d t h e l a n d in g , t h e n h e s a y s – h e w a s a s k e d ,
20

w h e r e d id y o u h e a r a b o u t t h a t i f I m a y a s k , h o w d i d y o u l e a r n
a b o u t w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t to l d u s , th a t n u m b e r o n e w a s c a ll e d
t h e n h e s a y s , w e l l w e h a v e m e e ti n g s in t h e A N C w e s p o k e
m o s t o f u s . I c a n n o t s a y I g o t i t fr o m s o a n d s o o r th e o t h e r
one

but

my

i m p r e s s io n

was

p r e c is e l y

th a t

he

a c tu a l ly

a u t h o r i s e d i t a n d th e n l a te r h e s a y s , y o u s e e C h a ir, P r e s i d e n ts

Page 115 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
I’ v e g o t fr ie n d s i n t h e b u s i n e s s c o m m u n i ty a n d s o

on

p e o p l e a n d s o o n b u t th e s e o n e s , I fe l t t h e y

w e r e in s u l ti n g e v e n

t h e P r e s i d e n t b e c a u s e w h a t th e y w e r e
know that they had captured the

10

they

do

see

d o i n g w a s t o s h o w o ff, y o u

R e p u b l ic i t is t h e ir s .

They are not

P r e s i d e n ts b u t t h e y c a n

la n d a t a n A ir F o r c e B a s e , la t e r h e s a y s , s o

it ’s ju s t i m p o r ta n t

t h a t w e g e t th a t fu ll p ic tu r e , s o I ju s t i n v i te

y o u – o h t h a t ’s m e

t a lk in g t o h i m , h e s a y s , C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n s

a t t h e A ir F o r c e

B a s e o f S o u t h A f r i c a i s o n ly H e a d s o f S t a te s l a n d

there and

w h e n t h e y la n d w e r e c e i v e th e m w i t h a l l t h e p r o t o c o l s

either

o n e M i n is te r o r t h e o t h e r is s e n t t o g o a n d d o th a t b u t o n t h is
occasion,
There

th is

was

a e r o p la n e

p r e p a r a ti o n s

fr o m

I n d ia

because

ju s t

even

the

la n d e d
tr a ff ic

there.
cops

w e r e e s c o r ti n g t h o s e b u s s e s w h i c h w e r e g o i n g to N o r t h W e s t ,
s o h e s a y s , s o i t w a s w e l l p la n n e d r e c e p ti o n w h ic h c o u ld n o t
happen

without

higher

a u th o r it y

knowing,

w h il e

they

m o b i li s e d e v e n th e M u n ic i p a li t ie s t o p r o v id e s e c u r i t y f o r
t h o s e b u s s e s th a t w e n t th e r e ” .
I th in k t h o s e a r e t h e p a r t s I w a n t e d t o r e a d . O n h is e v i d e n c e
h e v ie w e d t h is Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d i n g o f a p r iv a t e a ir c r a f t i n a v e r y, v e r y
20

s e r io u s li g h t , m a n y p e o p l e d i d , fr o m w h a t y o u s a id , I t h i n k y o u a l s o –
y o u v i e w e d it v e r y s e r i o u s ly b e c a u s e y o u s a y, w h a t h e d i d , t h a t y o u
c a n n o t c o n d o n e , I t h i n k y o u s a y b u t y o u t a lk a b o u t w h a t t o d o a f t e r th a t
h a s h a p p e n e d . S o h e – M i n is te r R a m a t lh o d i w a s s a y i n g th is w a s v e r y
s e r io u s , n o w I u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o – w h e n h e s a y s t h e y w e r e s h o w i n g
o ff , I u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o b e s a y i n g in e ff e c t , y o u k n o w th a t p l a c e is a

Page 116 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
special place, Heads of State land there, these people are not
P r e s i d e n ts b u t l o o k a t w h a t th e y d o i n o u r c o u n tr y. T h e y w a n t t o s h o w
t h a t , l o o k w e a r e i n c h a r g e , w e l a n d w h e r e t h e Pr e s id e n ts l a n d a n d
w h e n y o u v ie w i t l ik e t h a t , c e r t a i n ly f o r m e h o w b a d i t w a s , c o m e s b a c k .
Is t h a t a ls o t h e w a y y o u s e e i t o r m a y b e y o u m ig h t p u t i t i n y o u r o w n
w a y t o s e e h o w s e r i o u s l y y o u v i e w it ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

C h a ir I v ie w i t a s s e r i o u s l y a s

y o u ’r e s a y in g b u t I a l s o s a y t o m y s e l f , th e h i g h s e c u r i ty z o n e c a n n o t b e
r u n b y o n e m a n i n a s u i t a n d h e ’s a l l o w e d . W e s h o u l d b e s i t ti n g h e r e
10

t a lk in g a b o u t h o w th e y c o u l d n o t l a n d e v e n w i t h K o l o a n e b u t w e a r e
h a v i n g a d i ff e r e n t c o n v e r s a ti o n .

S o m e t h i n g w e n t n o t s o r ig h t b u t i f i t

w e n t r ig h t th e jo in t c l u s t e r c o u l d h a v e c o m e o u t w i t h a s a n c t i o n t h a t
s a y s s o m e th in g e ls e t h a t w o u ld h a v e m a d e i t d i ff ic u l t , e v e n f o r t h e
n a m e d r o p p e r t o e s c a p e i t. S o i f i t ’s j u s t a b o u t n a m e d r o p p in g a n d a l l
o f u s c a m e b a c k t o t h is … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t M i n is te r I a m s o r r y t o i n te r r u p t y o u .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e r e a r e ti m e s w h e n I ju s t w a n t y o u to t a l k i n

general.
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e p r in c i p l e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In g e n e r a l n o t w h e t h e r i t is K o l o a n e o r w h a te v e r.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n w h e n w e t a lk a b o u t K o l o a n e w e c a n t a lk a b o u t

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
him.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

I ju s t w a n t a t t h i s s t a g e h o w y o u v ie w e d th is t h i n g

ir r e s p e c t iv e o f w h o m a d e i t p o s s i b l e ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t I w a n t a t t h i s s t a g e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I – C h a ir c o u ld o n l y r e p r e s e n t w h a t
I s e e a s a w r o n g d o in g p a r ti c u l a r l y w h a t y o u a r e q u o t e – y o u a r e
q u o ti n g a m a n I w o r k e d w i th R a m a t lh o d i w h o w a s o n c e m y Pr e m i e r w h o
10

s e r v e d i n t h e D C P S a t th a t t i m e a n d p o s t t h a t h e b e c a m e M i n is t e r o f
M i n i n g . S o a l l t h o s e w h o s a i d t h i s w a s w r o n g r e m a i n e d in p o s i ti o n s . S o
I t h i n k i t w a s a l e s s o n f o r a ll o f u s n o t to l o w e r o u r g u a r d a n d ta k e a ll
o u r s e c u r i ty r e s p o n s ib il i ty t o 1 % b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w h o w w e a ll
t h o u g h t h e s h o u l d b e c a r r y i n g t h e s e c u r i ty o f t h e c o u n tr y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o a r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t n o w ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e e n ti r e

p e o p l e w h o w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e s u p p o r t i n g t h e Pr e s id e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:
20

T h e e n t ir e g a m b i t .

Th e o ff ic ia ls ,

p o li t ic a l o th e r w i s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I t r e a l ly s h a m e d u s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B u t it a ls o g a v e u s a w a k e u p c a ll .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S o t h a t is a l l I w a n t t o s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. N o t h a n k y o u . T h a t …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

B u t I r e a l ly d o n o t w a n t t o

r e p r e s e n t o t h e r M in is t e r s a n d f o r m e r.
CHAIRPERSON: No I accept.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: And current.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Because…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ta lk f o r y o u r s e l f?
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I w i ll b e s a y i n g t h i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h a t t h e y w il l s a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Yo u k n o w s h e w a s tr y i n g t o

represent us.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I d o n o t w a n t t o d o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
20

B u t I w a s r a is e d w i th n o r m s t h a t

s a y n o is n o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s is y e s a n d th a t I r e s p e c t it .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

N o t h a t – th a t is h e l p f u l M i n is t e r. N o w I t h i n k

w h a t c o u ld h a v e b e e n d o n e a n d w h a t c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n d o n e w i th
r e g a r d t o A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a f t e r w a r d s w o u ld b e i n f l u e n c e d i n p a r t –

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
I a m n o t s a y i n g i t i s t h e o n ly t h i n g .

But in part by how we view the

in c i d e n t .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is a t o n e le v e l .

T h e n t h e r e is t h e q u e s ti o n o f

h i m h a v i n g m i s r e p r e s e n te d f a c ts in o r d e r t o g e t th e la n d i n g to b e
a p p r o v e d a s I u n d e r s t a n d h is p o s i ti o n .

S o p a r t o f m y d i ffi c u l ty w it h

your decision to recommend him for appointment as an Ambassador
s t e m s f r o m t h is th a t I u n d e r s ta n d th a t i n o r d e r t o b e a n A m b a s s a d o r –
in o r d e r to b e c o n fe r r e d w i th t h is h o n o u r t h a t y o u t a lk e d a b o u t w h ic h
10

you get when you are appointed by the President as Ambassador to
r e p r e s e n t t h e P r e s id e n t i n a fo r e ig n c o u n t r y, t o r e p r e s e n t t h e n a ti o n o f
t h e c o u n t r y i n a n o t h e r c o u n tr y. T h a t h o n o u r r e q u ir e s t h a t a t l e a s t y o u
m u s t b e s o m e b o d y o f in t e g r i ty. Yo u m u s t b e s o m e b o d y w h o i s h o n e s t .
N o w I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t y o u b u t m y t h i n k i n g is t h a t s o m e b o d y w h o
u s e s t h e n a m e o f t h e H e a d o f S t a te in t h i s w a y o f Mi n is te r s a n d s a y s ,
t h e P r e s i d e n t k n o w s a b o u t th is a i r c r a ft .

O r t h e Pr e s id e n t i s p u t ti n g

p r e s s u r e o n m e o r t h e Pr e s i d e n t h a s i n s tr u c t e d t h a t th is s h o u l d b e d o n e
w h e n a c t u a l ly h e k n o w s t h a t i s n o t tr u e is n o t h o n e s t . I s t h a t – is th a t
y o u r th in k i n g a s w e l l?
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C h a ir m y r e s p o n s e i s y e s . B u t a ll
t h e l e a d e r s w h o w e r e a t t h e h e l m a t t h e t i m e w il l s a y I th i n k – I a m
t a lk in g p a r t ic u l a r l y a b o u t M i n is te r s . T h e r e is a s i g n o f – t h e r e i s a t t h e
e n d th e o n e w h o m u s t s a y y e s a n d n o a f t e r t w o d is c ip li n a r y h e a r in g s
c o u l d n o t s a y, t a k e th is m a n to j a i l. L ik e – c o u l d n o t s a y, i t w a s li k e h e
g a v e y o u a w a k e u p c a ll t h a t y o u a r e n o t d o i n g w h a t y o u a r e s u p p o s e d

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
t o b e d o in g .

S o h o w I w is h w e c o u l d b e s i t ti n g h e r e a n d I a m

r e s p o n d i n g to h o w t h e G C P S c l u s t e r – h o w e v e r y b o d y w h o h a d h a d a
v ie w o n t h i s m a t t e r h a d s u g g e s t e d s o m e t h i n g e l s e a n d t h e r e w a s n o
d is c u s s io n a b o u t a D D G g o in g b a c k to w o r k .

W h y a r e w e n o t e q u a l ly

w o r r i e d a b o u t w h a t d o e s a D D G d o in a g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t ?

I

b e li e v e a l l d e p a r t m e n ts a r e s e n s i t iv e a n d t h e li t tl e I k n o w i s th a t in t h e
a b s e n c e o f a D D G , in t h e a b s e n c e o f D G t h e – a D D G a c ts .

So the

e n t ir e t y o f g o v e r n m e n t w a s s ti ll o k a y w it h h i m s e r v in g a s a D D G . S o I
a g r e e w i t h y o u fu ll y b u t I t h i n k w e e v e n s a v e d t h a t s p a c e b y j u s t
10

r e m o v i n g t h is p e r s o n o u t o f t h a t b i g r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f s ti ll b e in g s it t in g
h e r e i n t h e a r e a . B u t h e a ls o h e lp e d u s b y c o n fe s s i n g . H e d i d n o t h a v e
t o j iv e a n d b r i n g l a w y e r s a n d t h i n g s a n d r u n t h i s w a y o r t h a t w a y. B u t
a t th e e n d th is o n e v o i c e g u id e d b y a ll t h i s d is c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g s t h a t h e
said.

I a c tu a lly a m h u m b l e d t h a t y o u r e m i n d e d m e o f R a m a t lh o d i m y

b i g b r o t h e r. B e c a u s e h a l f th e t h i n g s y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u a r e s a y in g h e
w a s r e f e r r i n g t o I d id n o t r e a d a b o u t . I w a s p a r t o f th e m . I d o n o t – I
d i d n o t r e a d a b o u t R a m a t l o h o d i [i n d is ti n c t ] .
u n d e r th e s a m e r o o f .

We slept in the same –

S o t h e w a y h e f e l t s h o u ld b e t h e w a y I fe l t

b e c a u s e w e b e l ie v e d i n o n e c a u s e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w – n o I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t M i n is te r. I t h i n k w e – w e
a r e o n th e – u p t o a c e r t a i n p o i n t a t l e a s t s o fa r w e a r e o n th e s a m e
le v e l I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t – h o w y o u v ie w e d t h e s i t u a t i o n . I t s e e ms to m e
t h a t w h a t y o u w o u l d d o w i t h h i m a s s o m e b o d y o c c u p y i n g t h e p o s i ti o n o f
D D G i n t h e lo n g t e r m w a s s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s a n i m p o r ta n t f a c to r i n
y o u r m in d . A m I r i g h t? I n m a k i n g t h e d e c i s io n t o r e c o m m e n d h i m .

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M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: I w o u l d s a y p a r t o f b e c a u s e h e h a d
gone through all the processes.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

T h e d i s c i p li n a r y h e a r in g o f th e

d e p a r t m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A n d o f th e j o in t s e c u r it y c l u s t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : N o n e o f t h e m s a i d , ta k e h i m t o ja il .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w le t …
MINISTER

NKOANA-MASHABANE:

But

send

him

back

to

the

d e p a r t m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s t a l k a b o u t t h e j o i n t s e c u r i ty c l u s t e r. I d o
n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th a t w a s t h e c o r r e c t t e r m f o r th e c o m m i t t e e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w e k n o w w h a t – w h ic h c o m m i t te e w e a r e t a l k i n g

a b o u t. M y u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t t h e y w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g w h a t t h e fa c t s
were.
ADV NORMAN: Hm.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : E x c u s e m e . I h a v e n o t r e fr e s h e d m y m e m o r y o n th e i r
r e p o r t r e c e n tly b u t I d o n o t th in k th e y w o u ld h a v e h a d p o w e r t o s a y h e
m u s t b e d is m i s s e d o r n o t . A n d I – I d o u b t w h e t h e r i n t h e ir r e p o r t t h e y –
t h e y w e r e g o in g – th e y w o u l d g o th a t f a r. B e c a u s e th e y w o u l d – w e r e
n o t t h e d i s c i p li n a r y c o m m i t t e e o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Ye s S ir.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t y o u s a y t h e r e w e r e tw o

d is c i p l i n a r y …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hearings.
CHAIRPERSON: Hearings.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t c o m m i t t e e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t m i g h t b e – th a t m ig h t n o t b e c o r r e c t b e c a u s e

t h e y w e r e n o t a d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s .
10

Yo u a c c e p t th a t ?

Th e y w e r e a

f a c t fi n d i n g c o m m i t t e e n o t f o r p u r p o s e s o f d i s c i p li n i n g a n y b o d y.

Is –

are you with me?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is i n fa c t

fi n d i n g y o u c o u l d a ls o d o c u m e n t th a t y o u k n o w i f t h i n g s w e r e e q u a l t h is
could have happened.

Yo u c a n n o t s a y I a m f a c t f in d i n g b u t y o u a r e

r u n n in g v e r y s e r i o u s s e c u r i ty o f t h e m a t t e r s o f s e c u r i t y i n a c o u n tr y a n d
w e j u s t s a y, n o e v e r y t h i n g e ls e c a n g o l e t u s a s k th is w o m a n w h y d i d
s h e r e c o m m e n d t h is m a n . A n d – b u t h e c a n b e l e t lo o s e e v e n w i t h t h e –
t h e fa c t – t h e y w e r e n o t fa c t fi n d i n g p e r i o d . T h e y c o u ld n o t l o c k h i m u p
b u t t h e y c o u ld h a v e m a d e i t e a s i e r.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y c o u l d s a y h e s h o u ld b e – t h e y c o u l d s a y

s o m e t h i n g a lo n g t h e li n e s th a t y o u r d e p a r t m e n t s h o u l d c o n s i d e r
in it i a t i n g a d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s . T h e y c o u l d s a y th a t I w o u l d i m a g i n e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e h a d a lr e a d y in f a c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: We were ahead.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u w e r e a lr e a d y ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: We were ahead.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Because we appreciated.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h e v e r a c i t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O f t h e m a t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o b u t w h a t I a m s a y i n g is i t w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n

t h e ir p la c e to s a y w h a t th e s a n c t i o n s h o u l d b e f o r h i m in c ir c u m s ta n c e s
w h e r e t h e r e w a s a s e p a r a t e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s t h a t w o u l d d e a l w i th
t h a t is s u e .

Th e y – t h e y – i t w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n r ig h t f o r t h e m t o –

t h a t i s w h a t I a m t h i n k in g a n d y o u c a n j u s t t e ll m e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – f o r th e m t o p r e - e m p t.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C h a ir – I – I a m li s te n i n g to y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

A n d I a m l is te n in g t o w h a t y o u

s a y in g m y b r o t h e r s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Here.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E: A n d k n o w in g h i m i f a l l t h o s e w e r e

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s a t t h e r e a n d t h e y f e l t t h e y h a v e t h e r ig h t t o a ll w a lk a t th e s a m e t i m e
a n d g o t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t a n d s a y, Pr e s id e n t t h i s is n o t o n .

It did not

h a p p e n . S o i t c a n n o t b e t h a t th e w h o l e – I d o n o t k n o w i f C h a ir p e r s o n
in d e e d w e c a n s a y t h e s e c u r i ty o f t h e c o u n tr y c a n b e r e le g a te d to o n e
in d i v i d u a l a n d w e s a y w e a r e a ll s a f e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly. I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r w h e n y o u
t a lk a b o u t o n e i n d i v i d u a l y o u r e f e r to A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e

I am not

t a lk in g a b o u t – t h a t i s t h e o n ly.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
10

I a m a c t u a ll y n o t r e f e r r in g t o h i m

b u t I a m s a y in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

The reason why we have – we

s h o u l d b e h a v in g s o m a n y o f u s g u a r d i n g th e i n t e r e s ts s e c u r i ty,
e c o n o m ic , w e ll - b e i n g o f o u r c i ti z e n s is th a t a l l o f u s ta k e t h is 2 4 h o u r
jo b s e r i o u s .

A n d t h a t i f th e y s a y i f Pr e s i d e n t s a y s M a i t e t h is is y o u r

r e s p o n s i b i li ty fo r n o w.

I leave no stone unturned and I cannot have

s o m e b o d y v i s i ti n g a n d d o in g s o m e t h i n g a n d I e x p l a i n l a te r h o w t h a t
p e r s o n u s e d n a m e d r o p p i n g a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . I d o n o t w a n t to g e t
in t o th a t C h a ir. B u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g t h a t I t h i n k m e , y o u w e n e e d t o d o
20

m o r e to b e s e c u r e . A ll o f u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u s e e – y o u s e e M i n is t e r p a r t o f w h a t n e e d s t o
b e d o n e w h e n a p r o b le m h a s a r i s e n w h e n s o m e t h in g li k e t h i s
Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d in g h a s h a p p e n e d i s t o e s t a b lis h th e r o le s o f d i ff e r e n t
people.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o r d e r t o s e e w h o d i d n o t d o h i s o r h e r j o b p r o p e r ly.
A n d w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o s e e t h a t i f w e – i f w e d o n o t lo o k a t t h e r o l e s
o f i n d i v i d u a ls . W e j u s t d e a l w it h p e o p le c o l l e c ti v e ly.

We have got to

s e e w h a t d id y o u d o ? W h a t w e r e y o u s u p p o s e d t o d o ? D i d y o u d o w h a t
y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d to d o ? D id y o u n o t d o w h a t y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o
d o ? W h y d id y o u n o t d o w h a t y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d to d o ? B e c a u s e w e
h a v e g o t t o f in d o u t h o w d id th is h a p p e n . I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t y o u b u t
on the evidence that I have heard and what I am saying about some of
t h e s e t h i n g s is w h a t I a m t h i n k i n g a t t h is s t a g e a n d i t is n o t m y fi n a l
10

t h o u g h ts .

T h e y a r e n o t m y fi n a l th o u g h t s .

M y f in a l t h o u g h t s w il l b e

w h e n I fi n is h th e w h o l e w o r k o f t h e c o m m i s s io n . B u t w h a t – w h a t – p a r t
o f w h a t I a m th i n k i n g a t t h i s s t a g e p r o v i s i o n a ll y is t h a t w h a t e v e r w e s a y
M r K o l o a n e p l a y e d – to s a y t h e le a s t – a v e r y s i g n i fic a n t r o le .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In e n a b l in g Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d i n g t o h a p p e n .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e h e t o l d c e r t a i n k e y o ffi c i a l s s o m e th i n g t o th e
e ffe c t t h a t t h is is w h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a n t s .

S o t h a t is – w e a r e

t h e r e f o r e l e g i ti m a t e l y tr y i n g t o e n q u ir e if t h is is th e r o l e th a t th is
20

p e r s o n p l a y e d a n d s u b s e q u e n tl y h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s A m b a s s a d o r. A
p o s i ti o n w i th s u c h h o n o u r.

W h a t w a s t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th o s e w h o

had a role in his appointment?

W h a t w e r e th e y – w h a t d i d th e y k n o w

a b o u t h is r o le a n d w h a t w a s t h e i r p e r s p e c ti v e ?

Maybe they saw

m a t t e r s d i ffe r e n tl y a n d t h a t is p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n w h y I a m tr y i n g t o
b e n e fi t fr o m y o u r o w n p e r s p e c ti v e t o s a y, lo o k I w a s t h e M i n is t e r w h o

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
r e c o m m e n d e d – w h o m a d e t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o t h e Pr e s id e n t. T h is
is w h a t w a s i n m y th in k i n g . Ye s I s e e t h a t w h a t h e d id w a s v e r y w r o n g .
S e e a c t u a l ly t h a t m a y b e

he

p l a y e d a v e r y s ig n i f ic a n t r o l e b u t

n e v e r t h e l e s s t h is w a s m y t h i n k in g .

I t h i n k w e a r e o n e a t s a y in g h e

p l a y e d t o s a y t h e l e a s t a s i g n i fic a n t r o l e i n e n a b l in g th e la n d i n g t o
happen.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: We are one on that?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d w e a r e o n e – w e h a v e a lr e a d y r e a c h e d

a g r e e m e n t t h a t h e h a d a c t e d d is h o n e s tl y i n t e ll in g o ff ic ia ls t h a t t h e
P r e s i d e n t a n d th e o th e r M i n is t e r s h a d – k n e w a b o u t t h i s o r h a d
in s t r u c t i o n s . W e a r e o n e o n th a t a s w e ll , is th a t r i g h t?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e a r e o n e a n d a ls o
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

I have worked with government

o ffic i a ls f o r th e p a s t I d o n o t k n o w t w e n t y y e a r s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Or since we became …
CHAIRPERSON: 25 years or more.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

T h e y c a n a c tu a l ly e x h a u s t y o u

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M i n is t e r i n d e m a n d i n g p a p e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

S o h o w t e lli n g a n d te ll in g a n d

t e ll i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

C o u ld m a k e e v e r y b o d y b e li e v e ,

b e li e v e , b e li e v e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A c tu a l ly s a y s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Like I said.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O ff ic i a ls s h o u l d h a v e – h a v e t a k e n
r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o g e t h e r a t th e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: We suspended him.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W i t h o u t p a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W e p u t h i m o r o n h is fi le f o r s ix

m o n th s s o m e t h i n g e ls e th a t s a y s , th is m a n m u s t b e w a t c h e d . B u t w h e n
he has to come back into the department and become the same, same –
n o t C h i e f o f P r o to c o l b u t D D G w e f e l t m a y b e i f h e is s o m e w h e r e i n a
c o r n e r w e w il l b e m o r e – w e c a n b e t h i n k in g s tr a ig h t . I th i n k l e s s o n s
le a r n t is w h a t d o o ff ic i a l s d o w i t h p a p e r a n d p r o c e s s e s w h e r e t h e y c a n

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a c t u a ll y f r u s t r a t e a w e ll- m e a n i n g M in is t e r o r w h a t c a n th e y n o t d o b y
ju s t s a y i n g , w e w e r e t o ld ? T h is o n e t o l d t h is o n e t h a t . T h i s o n e t o l d
t h is o n e th a t .

A n d o n e p e r s o n b e c o m e s t h e te ll e r o f t h e s to r i e s –

o th e r s I d o n o t c a r e b e c a u s e t h e o u tc o m e o f o u r p r o c e s s w a s a b o u t t h e
o ffic i a l i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t . B u t a s C h a ir h a d s a i d e a r li e r o n w e a l m o s t
p u t t h e c o u n t r y a t r is k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n b ig g e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

B u t i f t h e r e w a s n o p o s t- m o r t e m

t h a t s a y s b e s id e s g i v i n g t h i s m a n a l l th e p o w e r s a g a i n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B e a D D G . A n d l e t u s g o a ll g o b e
h a p p y. W h o e l s e w a s b e i n g i n te r e s t e d i n d o i n g [ n o t s p e a k i n g i n t o t h e
m ic r o p h o n e ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I a m s o r r y t h e m ic r o p h o n e w a s o ff .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O h s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n ti n u e .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E:

I a m s a y in g t h a t l e s s o n l e a r n t

w o u ld b e t h a t w e n e e d t o s e c u r e o u r s e lv e s w i th o u r le a r n e d o ffi c i a l s .
So if we had recommended that he goes somewhere and they – we are
s e r v i n g t h e s a m e g o v e r n m e n t . T h e y c o u l d h a v e s a id n o . W e h a d – th is
m a n d id n o t le a v e th e fo ll o w i n g d a y. Th e r e w e r e s i x m o n t h s i n b e t w e e n

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w h e r e i f a n y o n e h a d a f e e li n g t h a t h e s h o u l d b e s to p p e d c o u l d h a v e .
T h e y w e r e a l l th e r e a n d ju s t a n o m in a t io n a l o n e o f a p e r s o n w h o
e v e r y b o d y w a s h a p p y w it h h i m g o i n g b a c k t o w h e r e h e c a m e fr o m I d o
n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h i s c o n tr i ti o n , t h is s e n s e o f r e m o r s e c o u ld h a v e
b o r n e s o m e fe w o r l i tt l e f r u i ts fo r t h e c o u n tr y. B u t I t h i n k l e s s o n l e a r n t
w e h a v e n o t – I d o n o t th i n k w e – w e a r e – I d o n o t k n o w i f t h i s –
t h r o u g h y o u r p r o c e s s w e w il l s a y – w e w i ll s a y l e s s o n l e a r n t .

Let us

u s e b u r e a u c r a c y fo r t h e g o o d a n d f o r th e s e c u r i t y o f o u r c o u n t r y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h e n y o u s a i d th a t th e y w e r e a ll t h e r e , th e y k n e w

a b o u t h is n o m i n a t io n I t a k e i t y o u m e a n t th e c a b i n e t , y o u m e a n t
s e c u r i ty, p e o p l e s o ffic i a ls , h i g h o ff ic ia ls in s e c u r i ty – i n th e s e c u r i ty
c lu s te r t h a t m a n y o f t h e m w o u ld h a v e k n o w n h e h a s b e e n n o m i n a te d
a n d n o b o d y c a m e t o a p p r o a c h y o u a n d s a id , n o b u t h o w c a n y o u m a k e
t h is p e r s o n a n A m b a s s a d o r. Is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g c o r r e c t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s S i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O k a y. N o w – b u t …
MINISTER

NKOANA-MASHABANE:

But

we

were

tr y i n g

to

something.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No I understand that ja.
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I n th e a b s e n c e o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : H o w d o w e j u s t a l l k e e p q u ie t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A n d d o n o th i n g a b o u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 130 of 153

do

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Post. Because we – we were – we
a r e n o w d e a li n g w i th p o s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h a t e x p l a in s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W e c o u l d h a v e ju s t a ll g o n e q u i e t

a n d w e n t to s l e e p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B u t w e d id n o t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Now what do you say to somebody who says this

p e r s o n ’s c o n d u c t i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e Wa t e r k lo o f la n d i n g t h a t is Mr
K o lo a n e a n d th e fi n d i n g s m a d e i n t h e d is c ip li n a r y e n q u ir y in c l u d i n g h i s
o w n p le a o f g u il t y to t h e c h a r g e s t h a t i n c lu d e d m i s r e p r e s e n ti n g f a c ts ,
t e ll i n g o ff ic ia ls t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t k n e w a b o u t t h e – th is o r w a n te d t h i s
t o h a p p e n o r s o m e t h in g to t h a t e ff e c t . T h a t t h i s p e r s o n l a c k e d in t e g r i ty
a n d th e r e fo r e l a c k e d a n i m p o r t a n t r e q u i r e m e n t o r – o r q u a l i ty th a t
s o m e b o d y w h o m u s t b e g iv e n th e h o n o u r t h a t y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t t o
r e p r e s e n t th e H e a d o f S t a t e a n d t h e c o u n t r y s h o u l d h a v e . Th is p e r s o n
d i d n o t h a v e t h i s v e r y i m p o r t a n t q u a li t y a n d t h e r e f o r e y o u s h o u l d n o t
20

h a v e r e c o m m e n d e d h i m . W h a t d o y o u s a y t o s o m e b o d y w h o s a y s t h a t?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: I would say for me who had worked
w i t h K o l o a n e i t i s l ik e w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t tw o p e o p l e . B e c a u s e w e a r e
r e fe r r i n g to a m a n w h o h a s b e e n a n A m b a s s a d o r b e f o r e h a d h e lp e d j a c k
u p o u r p r o to c o l , h a d w r o n g e d , h a d c o m e o u t w i th o u t m a k in g p e o p l e g e t
in t o c o r n e r s a n d s a id , I d i d s o m e t h in g w r o n g . A n d p o s t th a t h e w e n t

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a n d s e r v e d a n d c a m e b a c k v o lu n ta r i ly o n r e tir e m e n t t o s a y, w h a t d id w e
d o w i t h th e r e s t o f th e s a g a ? D id w e e v e r s i t b a c k a n d r e fl e c t o n w h a t
R a m a t l h o d i w a s s a y in g , t h e o t h e r p a r ty ? S o t h a t i s w h a t I a m s a y i n g .
The honour he did before, he wronged, he was punished, he went back,
s e r v e d a n d c a m e b a c k . S o I a m d e a l in g w i t h tw o K o lo a n e ’s . T h e o n e
w h o c o u ld b e a n e x c e l le n t r e p r e s e n t a ti v e w h o c o u ld d o w r o n g a n d d o e s
n o t h i d e – y o u k n o w th a t s o m e c a s e s e v e n i n – a r e in th e l a b o u r c o u r t s
forever and they do not come out because lawyers and so on and so on
I a m s u r e y o u n o b e t t e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Lawyers and so on and so on.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: And so on. This one did not waste
ti m e .

H e ju s t c a m e o u t a n d w h e n g i v e n a n o p p o r tu n it y p o s t s e r v ic i n g

h is t e r m h e w e n t b a c k a n d r e p r e s e n te d S o u th A f r i c a w e l l a n d c a m e
back.

S o I a m d e a li n g w i t h t w o K o l o a n e ’s .

By the way the same

K o lo a n e t h a t R a m a t lh o d i w il l s a y h e k n e w t h e a c tiv is t i n t h e c a m p s . H e
a ls o m i g h t h a v e b e e n s e r v e d b y a n A m b a s s a d o r i n S p a i n o r C o n s u l
G e n e r a l i n S h a n g h a i a t o n e s t a g e o r th e o t h e r I d o n o t k n o w. S o C h a ir
I t h i n k w e a r e d e a li n g w i th a c a s e t h a t n e e d s l e s s o n s t o l e a r n . B u t d o
w e – d o w e l ik e t o c h a s e th o s e w h o c o m e o u t a n d c o n f e s s ? O r d o w e
20

lik e t o – t o p r o t e c t t h o s e w h o h id e a n d m a k e u s t o g o o n a w il d g o o s e
c h a s e a n d th e s e c u r i ty o f o u r c o u n tr y is o v e r - e x p o s e d ? I t h i n k t h i s is
a n o p p o r t u n i ty fo r u s t o r e f l e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t a b o u t t h is ? Th a t t h e r e a r e c e r ta i n th i n g s t h a t i f
y o u a r e g u il ty o f th a t i f y o u h a v e d o n e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e s u c h t h a t i t d o e s n o t m a t te r w h a t a c a d e m ic

q u a li fi c a t io n s y o u m a y h a v e .

It does not matter what good you may

h a v e d o n e b e fo r e . B u t i f y o u h a v e d o n e t h a t y o u d o n o t d e s e r v e c e r t a i n
a p p o i n t m e n ts . Yo u d o n o t d e s e r v e c e r t a i n h o n o u r s . N o t t h a t y o u r tr a c k
r e c o r d is n o t b e i n g r e c o g n is e d .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t b e c a u s e y o u r h ig h a c a d e m ic q u a li fi c a t io n s a r e

n o t b e i n g r e c o g n is e d b u t b e c a u s e s o m e w h e r e a li n e m u s t b e d r a w n .
Yo u c a n n o t fo r e x a m p le s a y, I a d m i t th a t I h a v e r a p e d t h is c h il d .
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t b e c a u s e I h a v e a d m i t te d a n d b e c a u s e I w a s i n t h e
s tr u g g l e …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e w h e n I w o r k i n g i n th a t j o b - i n t h a t jo b I d id
s o w e ll . P le a s e j u s t g i v e m e a s u s p e n d e d s e n te n c e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e t o g o to ja il .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

S o I t h i n k s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e i n t h e c o u n tr y w o u l d

lo o k a t M r K o l o a n e ’s r o l e i n - i n th e Wa t e r k lo o f l a n d i n g in c i d e n t a n d t h e
s e r io u s n e s s o f t h e Wa t e r k lo o f l a n d in g i n c i d e n t a n d h i s d i s h o n e s ty u s i n g
even the name of the Head of State to achieve what he wanted.

To

s h a m e t h e w h o l e c o u n tr y a n d s a y t h a t p e r s o n d i d n o t d e s e r v e t o b e
g iv e n th e h o n o u r o f r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e H e a d o f S t a t e o f t h is c o u n t r y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON: No matter who the incumbent is.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e H e a d o f S t a t e o f t h i s c o u n tr y a n d t o r e p r e s e n t u s
a s a n a t io n in a n o t h e r c o u n tr y b e c a u s e t h a t is a s p e c i a l h o n o u r. T h a t
should never have done …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

H a v e h a p p e n e d a n d w e d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d h o w

M i n is t e r N k o a n a M a s h a b a n e r e c o m m e n d e d th is p e r s o n …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A g a i n s t t h is . P l e a s e u s e t h i s o p p o r t u n i ty t o d e a l w i th
s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t l o o k a t i t t h a t w a y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I w o u l d s a y to S o u t h A f r i c a n s

m o t h e r s w h o a r e d e a li n g w i t h g e n d e r b a s e d v io l e n c e a n d f e m ic id e t h a t
w e n e e d t o b e tr u t h fu l a n d d e a l w i th i s s u e s a t h a n d a n d s t a r t w it h
d e a li n g w i th t h e m o s t i m m e d i a t e a t h a n d .
Ambassador

it

is

the

r e s p o n s i b i li ty

of

The appointment of an
th e

Head

of

State.

R e c o m m e n d a t io n s c o m e .
W h o e v e r is i n c u m b e n t t h e b u c k s t o p s w it h w h o e v e r is t h e
H e a d o f S t a t e a n d w h o d o e s h e w a n t r e p r e s e n ti n g h i m w h e r e v e r, b u t w e
20

s h o u l d h e l p o u r l e a d e r s a s y o u s a i d . T h a t w e d e a l w i t h is s u e s t o g e t h e r.
N o t th a t w h e n i t g e ts t o u g h w e l e a d b y t a k i n g c o r n e r s .

I cannot over

e m p h a s is e th a t p o in t .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t u s a s s u m e t h a t y o u w e r e s ti ll M i n is te r o f

I n t e r n a ti o n a l R e l a ti o n s n o w …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e f a c ts r e l a ti n g to Wa t e r k l o o f h a d h a p p e n e d 1 2
m o n th s a g o .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d y o u a n d - a n d Mr K o l o a n e h a d p l a y e d th e r o l e
that we now know he played.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld y o u h a v e b e e n a b le n o w t o r e c o m m e n d h i m fo r
appointment as Ambassador?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
10

Government.

F o r a ll t h e o ff ic i a l s s e r v i n g i n o u r

If they have so - being so wrongful they need to go to

ja il . If th e y h a d s e r v e d te r ms a s y o u s a i d c o r r e c t i o n a l s e r v ic e s . H o w
d o w e r e h a b i li t a t e th e m ?

B y t h e m d o i n g w h a t th e y a r e g o o d a t o r b y

s e n d i n g t h e m - th e m t o t h e g a ll o w s fo r h a v in g b e e n w r o n g .
I t h in k t h e r e w e c a n b e a s s is te d b y l a w e x p e r t s a s t o w h a t
d o e s o u r C o n s ti t u ti o n a n d l a b o u r l a w s a y.

O n c e w r o n g y o u g o t o th e

g a ll o w s e v e n i f y o u h a v e s h o w n r e m o r s e . W h e n w e a r e u n a b l e t o d e a l
w i t h p e o p l e w h o a r e r a p in g a n d m a i m in g o u r m o t h e r s a n d c h i ld r e n a t
t h is h o u r. W e h a v e c h a l le n g e s - y o u s a id e a r l ie r o n C h a ir.
Yo u t h o u g h t w e w o u ld f i n is h b e f o r e b r e a k .
20

W e s p e n t th e

w h o le d a y h e r e w it h y o u r p a t ie n c e d e a li n g w i t h th e m a t t e r o f 2 0 1 3 . I d o
not know when I get out of here how m any women would have been
s la u g h t e r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u k n o w M i n is te r, p a r t o f th e p r o b l e m s ta r t s w i t h
w h a t o u r v a lu e s a r e a s p e o p l e . W h a t is o u r s e n s e o f r ig h t a n d w r o n g ?
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o w e v is i t w r o n g f u l c o n d u c t w i t h c o n s e q u e n c e s
…
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d o w e p a p e r o v e r th e c r a c k s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m i g h t - w e m ig h t b e d e a l in g w i th g e n d e r b a s e d

v io l e n c e , p e o p l e r a p in g c h i l d r e n , p e o p l e r a p i n g w o m e n , p e o p l e r a p in g
e l d e r l y w o m e n w h o c a n n o t d e f e n d th e m s e lv e s , b u t it m a y b e s t a r t in g
somewhere.
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t a r e o u r v a l u e s ? W h a t v a l u e s d o w e in s is t o n ?
W h a t a r e th e s t a n d a r d s …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w e i n s is t o n . Is t h e s t a n d a r d t h a t w e i n s i s t o n
t h a t s o m e b o d y c a n s a y th e H e a d o f S t a t e s a i d w e m u s t a ll o w t h i s h e a d
o f t h is - t h is a ir c r a f t t o - to l a n d h e r e a n d th e r e f o r e i n fl u e n c e o th e r
o ffic i a ls t o s a y - t o t h i n k t h e H e a d o f S t a t e w a n ts th is t o h a p p e n a n d
s o m e t h i n g t h a t - t h a t s h a m e s t h e w h o l e c o u n tr y h a p p e n s …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e n i t h a s h a p p e n e d w e r e c o m m e n d th a t t h a t

p e r s o n w h o a d m i ts t o h a v in g s a id - d o n e t h is , k n o w i n g t h a t i t i s w r o n g .
W e s a y t o t h e H e a d o f S t a te g iv e h i m t h e h o n o u r to r e p r e s e n t y o u
o u t s i d e t h e c o u n tr y a n d to r e p r e s e n t u s a s a n a ti o n .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Th e H e a d o f S t a t e e v e n a s I a m

s i tt i n g h e r e c a n ta k e a d v ic e , c a n a p p e a r a n d I h a v e s e e n h i m a p p e a r i n g

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
- fo r m e r H e a d o f S t a te h e r e i n t h e C o m m is s i o n .

I th i n k s o m e o f t h e

q u e s t io n s c a n b e r e fe r r e d t o . . .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To h i m .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Some members ...
CHAIRPERSON: No.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B u t h a v i n g s a i d th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A c l u s t e r o f M i n is t e r s c a n n o t a l l b e
happy …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W i t h j u s t s a y i n g w e h a d o ff ic ia ls

w h o a l m o s t c o m p r o m i s e d th e s e c u r i ty o f t h e c o u n tr y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : To o n e m a n a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h e is t h e p e r s o n w h o w h e n c e r t a i n o ff ic ia ls i n t h e
- i n W a te r k l o o f w e r e s a y in g t h i s is n o t r ig h t . W h e r e is th e n o te v e r b a l ?
A s I r e c a ll th e e v i d e n c e h e is t h e o n e a c c o r d i n g to s o m e e v i d e n c e w h o
s a i d i t h a s g o t to b e d o n e o r w o r d s to t h a t e ff e c t .

Th e Pr e s id e n t o r

n u m b e r o n e w a n t s i t t o b e d o n e o r s o m e th i n g t o t h a t e ff e c t .
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Yo u k n o w C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Earlier on I was asked how long

did I serve as a diplomat.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I have

Page 137 of 153

used

the

services

of

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
Wa t e r k l o o f .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A s s p e c i a l e n v o y f o r n in e y e a r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: But not on one trip …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

D id t h o s e w h o r u n th e a ir p o r t

n e v e r a s k e d f o r d o c u m e n ta r y p r o o f …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

T h a t I w a s g o in g to l a n d t h e r e o r

t a k e o ff fr o m th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: They asked for documents?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I w r o t e - I - I c a n s h o w y o u a p i le
of letters.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : E v e r y tr i p .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
la n d a t 0 2 : 0 0 a m i n t h e m o r n i n g .
20

Ev e r y - w h e th e r I w a s g o in g t o
W h e th e r I a m g o i n g to t a k e o ff a t

0 2 : 0 0 a m i n th e m o r n i n g . Th e r e w i ll b e d o c u m e n ta r y p r o o f th a t I w a s - I
h a d a p p l ie d t o u ti lis e t h a t s p a c e . S o th is - th e u n i q u e n e s s o f th is o n e
a n d j u s t c o l la p s in g i t i n to th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a y s s o m e t h in g a b o u t a l l
o f u s , b e c a u s e I k n o w Wa t e r k l o o f .
I h a v e u s e d t h e s e r v ic e s o f t h a t a ir p o r t a n d I h a v e h a d
o ffic i a ls w h o w o r k e d w it h m e w r i t in g …

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

E v e r y m i n u t e e v e r y h o u r.

If t h e

P r e s i d e n t s a y s y o u g o t h e r e . T h e r e is n o ti m e t o b e - a c c e p t t o p a c k
the bag.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : To b e a s k in g q u e s t i o n s a n d t h a t is
h o w I e n d e d u p h a v i n g to u ti lis e th a t s p a c e , b u t w i t h a n o t e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: So that they can record …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

But on this unique one everyone

w a n ts t o ju s t s a y h e s a i d th is .

He said that, but a Minister of

I n t e r n a ti o n a l R e l a ti o n s c o u l d n o t a c c e s s t h a t a ir p o r t w it h o u t a n o t e .
T h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s s e n t t h is p e r s o n t o p a s s h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

I have gone through that for nine

y e a r s . N o t b y te ll in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B y s ig n i n g o ff .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I c a n t e l l y o u M in i s t e r t h a t t h e - th e l e g a l t e a m
o f t h e C o m m is s i o n i f I - i f I u n d e r s ta n d c o r r e c tl y t h e y - t h e y w e r e
lo o k in g a t w h a t t h e p r a c t ic e w a s - w h a t - w h a t n o r m a l ly h a p p e n e d a t
Wa t e r k l o o f . M a y b e t h e r e w a s s o m e e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s g iv e n o r m a y b e

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
it is s ti ll c o m i n g .
I k n o w t h a t w e a r e n o t d o n e w i t h a l l th e w it n e s s e s r e la t in g t o
t h e W a te r k l o o f l a n d in g . T h e r e i s o n e w i t n e s s w h o - w h o is s t il l c o m i n g ,
b u t a n y o n e w h o t h i n k s t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e w e h a v e a b o u t W a te r k l o o f
m a y b e is o n e s i d e d o r is n o t c o m p l e t e o r d o e s n o t g iv e u s a c o m p l e t e
p ic t u r e . T h e y m u s t fe e l fr e e t o m a k e e v i d e n c e a v a i la b le t o u s to m a k e
s u r e th a t w e h a v e a …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c o m p l e te p i c t u r e .
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o w a n t t o h a v e a c o m p le t e p ic t u r e .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t w a n t to h a v e h a l f a p ic t u r e . T h a t i s p a r t o f
t h e r e a s o n w h y I w a n t e d to h e a r y o u r o w n p e r s p e c t iv e s …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

Before we move forward about your decision to

recommend …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r - M r K o l o a n e . S o - s o - a n d - a n d t h a t is - t h a t is 20

w e h a v e d e a lt - w e d e a l t w i t h i t , b u t I t h i n k t h e i m p o r t a n t t h i n g is t h a t
y o u - y o u h a v e b e e n a b l e t o i n d ic a t e y o u r - y o u r p e r s p e c ti v e s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h e r e is o n e o r t w o t h i n g s th a t I w a n t t o - to to check.

Th e c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t y o u h a d w i t h t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t

w h e r e y o u to ld h i m a b o u t Mr K o lo a n e a n d t h e d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s a n d

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
so on.

D o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r it h a p p e n e d a t t h e ti m e y o u w e r e

d is c u s s in g th e l is t a t th e b e g i n n i n g o f th e s ix m o n t h p e r i o d o r i t
h a p p e n e d l a t e r o r - o r is i t s o m e t h in g y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h e - w e ll I c a n n o t h a v e t h e fu ll e r
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : D is c u s s i o n s o f h o w m a n y ti m e s w e
d is c u s s e d t h i s m a tt e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n u m b e r o f ti m e s .
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Pre …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Pre-appointment.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

P r e - a p p o in t m e n t .

N o t ju s t a b o u t

t h e a p p o i n t m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Oh you mean …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : J u s t a b o u t th e Wa t e r k lo o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e W a te r k l o o f. Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

And I sometimes wake up in the

m i d d l e o f n i g h t a n d r e m e m b e r w h a t th e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t h a d s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h e fi r s t q u e s t i o n h e a s k e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W h e n h e s a w m e f o r th e fir s t t i m e
a ft e r t h e y s a i d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Can you ask if my name was used

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
a n d a s k i f t h e y s a i d I s a i d I w a n t t h i s . I a m - I a m p e r t u r b e d th a t y o u y o u n e v e r a s k e d m e a b o u t w h e t h e r I k n o w t h e f a m ily o r n o t , b u t i t is
o k a y. ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l - w e l l - n o , n o th e - w e ll . W e l l I c a n te ll y o u t h i s
M i n is t e r b e f o r e w e s ta r t e d i n th e m o r n in g I th o u g h t w h e t h e r w e s h o u l d
ask you, but because it was not part of what had been planned …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h o u g h t y o u m ig h t s a y y o u k n o w m a y b e y o u s h o u ld
h a v e b e e n g iv e n n o ti c e a n d w e …
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e d o in t e n d a n d it h a s b e e n q u i t e s o m e ti m e . I d i d
s a y t h is p u b li c a ll y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e d o in t e n d a s k i n g M i n is t e r s - a ll s e r v i n g M i n i s te r s
a n d p a s t M i n i s te r s …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e t h e r th e y h a v e h a d a n y in t e r a c t io n s w i th t h e -

w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m ily a n d if s o in w h a t w a y. Yo u m i g h t r e m e m b e r t h a t
w e a l r e a d y h a v e a n a ff id a v i t fr o m t h e Pr e s i d e n t …
20

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e w h e n I s p o k e t o th e P r e s i d e n t I s a id

P r e s i d e n t y o u m u s t b e th e fi r s t o n e . Yo u m u s t g iv e u s a n a ffi d a v it t h a t
t e ll s u s w h e t h e r y o u k n o w t h e fa m i ly a n d w h a t in t e r a c t io n s y o u h a v e
h a d w i th t h e m .

N o m a y b e I - m a y b e I - I t h i n k h e is t h e o n e w h o

o ffe r e d to b e t h e f ir s t o n e .

Page 142 of 153

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s a i d I w a n t a ffi d a v i ts f r o m a l l t h e C a b i n e t i n c lu d in g
y o u Mr P r e s i d e n t …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th e D e p u t y P r e s id e n t a n d h e s a id I w il l b e th e

fir s t o n e t o g iv e y o u …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e h a s g iv e n u s a n d w e h a v e m a d e t h a t p u b l ic .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o - s o i t is n o t li k e w e - w e w e r e n o t g o i n g t o a s k

y o u , b u t w e th o u g h t b e c a u s e w e d i d n o t n o ti fy y o u a n y …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t a n y t h in g . W e s a i d t h i s is w h a t w e a r e t a l k i n g
a b o u t. M a y b e y o u w o u l d f e e l i t i s - it i s u n f a ir. S o le t u s w a i t fo r t h e
p r o c e s s w h e r e y o u w il l f il e …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll g iv e u s a n a ffi d a v i t.
ADV NORMAN:
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : C h a ir, I - I w o u ld b e g l a d t o d o t h a t
20

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Because I served …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: As an Ambassador …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O f S o u th A fr ic a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In I n d ia .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : I n In d i a .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: So …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O n a n o th e r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , b u t y o u w e r e s a y in g t h a t t h is Wa t e r k l o o f l a n d i n g
w a s d i s c u s s e d w i t h t h e - w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t . Yo u d i s c u s s e d it a n u m b e r
of times …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And you said he asked you to ask whoever whether

your name was asked or something.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B e c a u s e t h e f ir s t t i m e I - I h a d a

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th h i m h e w a s - h e l o o k e d v e r y, v e r y a n g r y.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

O n t h e t h ir d o r f o u r t h d a y h e w a s

t o f ly to B r a z z a v il le …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

And

d is c o n n e c te d t h e r e .

Page 144 of 153

things

were

s ti ll

b e in g

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : H e s t o o d t h e r e a n d s h o o k h is h e a d
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A n d I f e lt a li t tl e b i t s o r r y f o r h i m
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B u t h a v i n g s a i d th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : To g e t o u r s e c u r i ty p r o p e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
W h e n i t i s a n o ff ic i a l.

T h a t w h e n i t is M in is t e r s , r i g h t .

N o t e t h i s o n e m u s t t e ll t h a t o n e th is th a t .

P r e s i d e n ts c o m e a n d g o , b u t S o u th A f r i c a m u s t r e m a i n s e c u r e f o r S o u t h
A fr ic a n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

So - so you say he was at some stage quite angry

a b o u t h is n a m e b e i n g u s e d i n t h is w a y ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h a t i s w h a t - t h a t is t h e r e f l e c ti o n
I s a w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e i m p r e s s i o n y o u g o t?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: but …
CHAIRPERSON:

A t t h e ti m e t h a t y o u m a d e th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n a n d

y o u h a d t h e d is c u s s i o n w i t h h i m d i d h e n o t s a y a n y t h i n g l ik e h o w c a n
y o u r e c o m m e n d t h i s p e r s o n w h o l ie d a b o u t m e o r w h o m is r e p r e s e n t e d
things about me?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e ll h e a s k e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: And we said we - we cannot have
10

d i ff e r e n t s t a n d a r d s …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

F o r s o m e o ffic i a ls a n d d i ff e r e n t

s t a n d a r d s f o r o t h e r o ff ic i a ls …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B e c a u s e l ik e I s a id h e w a s o n e o f
the 17.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S o w e s p o k e a l i t tl e b i t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W e t a l k e d C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W i t h y o u r p e r m is s i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

And spoke about gender based

v io l e n c e .

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: We have not asked …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

T h e p r o fi le o f a l l t h e s e r v in g

Ambassadors …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: As to who did what when …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Where.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : A fe w m o n t h s a g o M i n i s t e r M c h u n u
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O r g a n is e d a m a r c h …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

F r o m th e C i ty - t h e c e n tr a l o f th e

C i ty o f Pr e to r i a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : To t h e U n io n B u il d i n g s …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : W h e r e m e n w e r e to s i g n o ff t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Th a t t h is w il l n o t h a p p e n in t h e i r

name.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

Buy the time we arrived at the

U n i o n B u il d i n g s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: I had three women surrounding me
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Crying …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
10

And they said we are not going

b a c k to o u r h o m e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

To n i g h t b e c a u s e h e r e w e a r e

m a r c h i n g w i th th o s e w h o h a d m a d e o u r li f e h e ll . W e h a v e w a tc h e d o u r
children raped. We have been raped …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B y th e m a n d t h e y a r e h e r e w i t h u s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: I tried chasing that case. I do not
know what had happened. I had people from your place and …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : E v e r y b o d y w e w e r e m a tc h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: I looked at those women and I felt
I n e e d e d t o g e t t o a b a t h r o o m a n d w ip e o ff ( i n d is t in c t ) , b e c a u s e I a m
n o t g o in g t o s l e e p w h e r e t h e y a r e g o in g t o s l e e p .

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I do not know

21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
w h e t h e r t h e y a r e s t il l s l e e p i n g . W h e r e t h e y s h o u l d b e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

So the amount of time you have

g iv e n u s is h i g h l y a p p r e c i a te d , b u t o u r p l a t f o r m is b u r n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : S o it i s tr u e th a t w e m u s t c h e c k o n
c h a r a c te r s o f p e o p l e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B u t I t h i n k w e m u s t a ls o c h e c k o n
10

o u r c o r r e c t io n - c o r r e c t iv e - o r is i t D e p a r t m e n t o f C o r r e c t i o n a l
S e r v ic e s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W h e t h e r w e a r e c o r r e c ti n g p e o p l e

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

B u t I a m n o t h e r e to s p e a k o n

b e h a l f o f o t h e r d e p a r t m e n ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:
20

But we could not have gone

through this far …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE:

W i t h t h e o n ly t h i n g t h a t y o u d o i s

y o u h a d a d m i t te d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: But we do not say let us go further

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : B e c a u s e w e r e s p e c t o u r s e lv e s , b u t
s o w h y - w h y is th e n o m i n a t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h e o n ly is s u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l i t is th e o n ly - w e l l m a y b e i t i s n o t t h e o n l y

is s u e , b u t c e r t a in ly w i t h r e g a r d to y o u .

I t is a n i m p o r t a n t p o i n t o f

d is c u s s io n , b e c a u s e …
10

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a d e t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w e - I w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t y o u r p e r s p e c t iv e s a r e …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is o r a r e , b e c a u s e …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r m e I lo o k - I l o o k a t i t a n d i t d o e s n o t s e e m r ig h t .

20

M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t s o m e b o d y w h o a c t s d is h o n e s tl y a n d d o e s s o i n

r e g a r d to s o m e t h i n g t h a t b r i n g s th e w h o l e c o u n tr y in t o s h a m e lik e t h is .
W h o h a s t h e t e m e r i ty t o u s e th e n a m e o f t h e H e a d o f S t a t e i n t h i s w a y
s h o u l d b e g iv e n t h e h o n o u r …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Huh-uh.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e p r e s e n t t h e c o u n tr y e ls e w h e r e . S o m e t h in g s a y s
t o m e i t is l ik e w e a r e s a y i n g it is fi n e .

Even if you do not have

in t e g r i ty w e c a n g iv e y o u t h e h o n o u r o f r e p r e s e n t i n g …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e H e a d o f S t a t e i n a n o t h e r c o u n tr y a n d y o u a r e

r e p r e s e n ti n g u s a n d y o u s a y c o u l d t h e r e n o t h a v e b e e n o th e r p e o p le
w h o h a v e t h i s q u a li t y o f i n t e g r i ty …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h o c o u ld h a v e b e e n g iv e n t h a t h o n o u r a n d m a y b e

h e c o u l d h a v e - c o u l d h a v e b e e n d e a l t w i t h i n a n o t h e r w a y. S o , b u t I
s a y a ll o f t h e s e t h in g s b e c a u s e a s I h a v e b e e n s a y i n g t h r o u g h o u t t o d a y
I w a n t y o u r p e r s p e c tiv e …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e s e a r e n o t my f in a l t h o u g h t s .
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

I w a n t t o b e n e fi t fr o m h o w o t h e r p e o p l e i n c l u d i n g

yourself …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Vi e w e d t h i s , b u t fr o m m y s i d e t h a t i s h o w i t a p p e a r s
20

a n d I w a n te d …
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To b e n e fi t fr o m w h a t …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e t o s a y.
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : T h a n k y o u s ir.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . I d o n o t k n o w if th e r e is a n y t h i n g a r i s i n g
…
ADV NORMAN: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I k n o w t h a t c o u n s e l f o r t h e M i n is t e r is p r e s s e d

for time.
A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . N o , n o n o t h in g e ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e r e is - t h e r e is n o t h i n g .
10

A D V N O R M A N : Ye s . N o n o t h in g . Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o , b u t ju s t t o r o u n d o ff a s w e - a s w e c l o s e .

S o t h e p o s i ti o n is t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h e t i m e w a s
f u ll y a w a r e o f th e r o l e t h a t M r K o lo a n e h a d p l a y e d i n - i n th e W a t e r k l o o f
la n d i n g i n c l u d i n g w h a t h a d a t th e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s e s - h e a r i n g , b u t
a n d - a n d h e w a s a n g r y a t s o m e s ta g e a t l e a s t .

A s fa r a s y o u w e r e

concerned …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t h o w h is n a m e w a s u s e d , b u t y o u s a i d to h i m i t
w o u ld b e j u s t i fi e d t o a p p o i n t M r K o l o a n e t o - a s A m b a s s a d o r b e c a u s e o f
20

a n u m b e r r e a s o n s t h a t y o u h a v e a r ti c u la t e d t o d a y. Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M I N I S T E R N K O A N A - M A S H A B A N E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M i n is t e r f o r …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Thank you.

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21 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 191
CHAIRPERSON:

C o m in g t o g iv e m e y o u r p e r s p e c ti v e s a n d y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e is s u e s i n m a k i n g th e d e c is io n th a t y o u m a d e t o
recommend Mr Koloane.

I a p p r e c ia t e t h a t y o u c a m e .

We have taken

m u c h l o n g e r t h a n w e - w e s h o u l d h a v e , b u t I t h i n k i t w a s in t h e in t e r e s t
o f m a k i n g s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d c o m p le t e l y …
MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t y o u r t h i n k i n g w a s a n d w h a t y o u r p e r s p e c tiv e s

w e r e . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u - f o r n o w w e w i ll e x c u s e y o u . Yo u
are excused.
10

MINISTER NKOANA-MASHABANE: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V N O R M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l a d jo u r n fo r t h e d a y.
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e s i tt i n g t o m o r r o w, b u t w e w i ll

s i t n e x t w e e k o n M o n d a y a n d Tu e s d a y t h e C o m m i s s i o n w il l h e a r
e v i d e n c e fr o m fo r m e r o ff ic i a ls fr o m t h e i n t e l li g e n c e - s e n io r o ffic i a ls . I
t h i n k Mr N j e n j e a n d M r M a q e t u k a a n d Mr S h a i k .
e v i d e n c e o n M o n d a y a n d Tu e s d a y.
20

ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
ADV NORMAN: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 5 N O V E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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Th e y w i ll g iv e