C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

21 JANUARY 2020

D AY 2 0 2

20

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
PROCEEDINGS ON 21 JANUARY2020
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s W e n tz e l , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
Are we ready?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s w e a r e r e a d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s p r o c e e d . M r W h it e y o u a r e s t ill b o u n d
b y th e o a t h y o u t o o k y e s t e r d a y.
M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a p p r e c ia t e th a t? T h a n k y o u . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Chair when we adjourned yesterday you asked
M r W h i te w h a t h is c o n c l u s io n s w e r e i n r e s p e c t o f th e b e n e f i ts p a i d to
t h e v a r i o u s i n d i v i d u a ls in v o lv e d i n t h e P a n d a y in v e s ti g a t i o n .

He has

o v e r n i g h t h a d a l o o k a t h is r e p o r t m o r e c a r e f u lly a n d h e w o u l d l ik e t o
d e a l w it h e a c h o f t h o s e i n tu r n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s d o th a t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . Mr W h i t e c o u ld y o u s t a r t p l e a s e
in y o u r r e p o r t w h i c h is R R 4 a a t p a g e 3 11 d e a li n g w i t h th e p a y m e n t
m a d e t o th e O y s t e r B o x ?
20

MR WHITE:

C h a ir in – i n th a t r e p o r t i t a c t u a ll y s t a r ts a t p a g e 3 0 8 I

s u m m a r i s e a s I h a v e b r ie f ly s a i d y e s t e r d a y t h e e v i d e n c e th a t w a s
a v a i la b le r e l a t i n g to e a c h o f t h e s e p a y m e n ts , w h o th e s u p p l i e r w a s t h a t
w a s p a i d , h o w t h e y w e r e p a id a n d w h a t i n fo r m a t i o n t h e r e w a s in b o t h
t h e s u p p li e r s r e c o r d s a s w e ll a s t h e r e c o r d s o f M r P a n d a y ’s e n ti t ie s
r e c o r d i n g h o w t h e m o n e y w a s p a i d a n d fo r w h o s e b e n e fi t i t w a s . C h a ir

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
then at the end of each of those payments I make a brief summary of
t h e fi n d i n g s a n d th e fir s t o n e r e la t in g to t h e O y s te r B o x w h ic h w a s a
p a y m e n t o f R 6 0 1 0 . 0 0 a n d th e p e r s o n w h o s e b e n e f it i t w a s f o r w a s
C o l o n e l M a d h o e . I t is a t p a g e 3 11 a n d i t i s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 0 3 1 i n th e
m i d d l e o f th a t p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I j u s t w a n t t o g e t th e r e . W h a t p a r a g r a p h a g a i n ?
M R W H I T E : 1 5 .0 3 1 i n t h e m id d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : U n d e r t h e h e a d in g S u m m a r y o f f in d in g s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d C h a i r j u s t a ll t h e s e f in d in g s m u s t – m u s t a l s o b e a t
t h e s a m e t i m e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t t h a t Mr P a n d a y ’s e n ti ti e s w e r e
r e c e i v i n g i n a d d i ti o n to t h e b u i ld u p t o t h e a c c o m m o d a ti o n f o r t h e W o r ld
C u p t h e y w e r e r e c e i v i n g v a r i o u s o r d e r s t h a t t h e y w e r e c o v e r q u o t in g f o r
at the same time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

S o t h e r e w a s a b i g b u il d u p t o t h e – to t h e R 2 6 m il li o n

p r o c u r e m e n t b u t t h e r e w a s o n g o in g p r o c u r e m e n t h a p p e n in g a t t h e s a m e
ti m e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d r e l a ti n g t o t h is p a y m e n t I s a y :
“ B a s e d o n t h e a f o r e m e n t i o n e d o b s e r v a t io n s i t w o u l d
b e r e a s o n a b le t o c o n c l u d e t h a t M a d h o e h a d r e c e iv e d
the

benefit

fr o m

Panday

ju s t

s h o r tly

a f te r

an

a p p lic a ti o n d a t e d 8 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 w a s s u b m i tt e d to

Page 3 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s o ff ic e fo r a u th o r it y fo r
a c c o m m o d a ti o n o f p o l ic e m e m b e r s f o r t h e s o c c e r
World Cup.

I t w a s a l s o r e c o r d e d in t h is l e t te r t h a t

o n ly G o ld C o a s t Tr a d i n g h a d r e s p o n d e d t o t h e
r e q u e s t fo r q u o t a ti o n s w h ils t C o a s t la n d s i g n o r e d t h e
p o li c e ’s r e q u e s t to p r o v id e a q u o t a ti o n .

So there

w a s a s ta t e m e n t t h a t C o a s tl a n d s r e f u t e d a n d t h e y
s a i d t h e y w e r e n e v e r a s k e d t o q u o te a t t h e e a r l y
stage.
10

S o t h a t w a s d o c u m e n ta t io n a lr e a d y in 2 0 0 9

a n d w h e r e t h e y a r e e ff e c ti v e ly s a y i n g C o a s tl a n d s is
o n e o f t h e o n l y e n ti t ie s o r t h e o n l y e n ti t y t h a t w il l b e
a b l e t o p r o v i d e th e a c c o m m o d a ti o n . A n d t h e r e w a s a
b e n e fi t t o M r o r C o l o n e l M a d h o e a t t h e s a m e t i m e
w h o w a s t h e a u t h o r o f th o s e d o c u m e n ts . ”
C h a ir t h e n t h e s e c o n d p a y m e n t is f o r f li g h ts fr o m D u r b a n t o C a p e To w n
in t h e a m o u n t o f R 8 5 8 4 . 0 0 . T h o s e w e r e a ir tic k e t s fo r C o lo n e l M a d h o e
a n d h is f a m il y. A g a i n p a id f o r b y M r P a n d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. O h o k a y n o w I s e e .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir a n d …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s l o o k in g f o r th e a m o u n t s o I h a v e s e e n w h e r e it
is j a . O k a y.
M R W H I T E : I t i s i n t h e h e a d in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d t h e n C h a ir t h e – I s u m m a r is e m y fi n d i n g s o n th a t a t
p a g e 3 1 5 . A n d a t p a g e 3 1 5 th e f ir s t p a r a g r a p h i n t h a t – o n t h a t p a g e

Page 4 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
paragraph 15.041.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : I s t a te :
“I

can

c o n c lu d e

fr o m

the

e x a m i n a ti o n

of

th e

a b o v e m e n ti o n e d d o c u m e n ts t h a t P a n d a y h a s p a id t h e
c o s t fo r M a d h o e a n d h is f a m ily t o f ly r e t u r n tr i p fr o m
D u r b a n to C a p e To w n .

Which means that Madhoe

r e c e i v e d a b e n e fi t i n t h e a m o u n t o f R 8 5 8 4 .0 0 . Th is
b e n e fi t w a s r e c e iv e d j u s t s h o r tly a f t e r t h e s u b m is s io n
10

w a s m a d e to t h e N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r ’s o ffic e o n 8
O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 t o o b t a i n a u t h o r i ty f o r a c c o m m o d a ti o n
o f p o lic e m e m b e r s d u r i n g th e s o c c e r W o r l d C u p .
Where
s u p p li e r

t h is

a p p lic a ti o n

who

was

able

i n d ic a te s
to

that

the

a c c o m m o d a te

only
p o li c e

p e r s o n n e l w a s G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g . ”
C h a ir th e t h ir d p a y m e n t w h i c h is d ir e c t l y b e l o w t h a t r e l a te s t o t h e
p a y m e n t t o Va r s i ty C o ll e g e o f R 4 3 5 0 0 . 0 0 .

C h a ir I s u m m a r i s e m y

fi n d i n g s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s til l tr y in g to s e e w h e r e t h a t is .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y it is p a g e 3 1 5 C h a ir r o m a n n u m e r a l ii i .
CHAIRPERSON: Page 315?
M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C h a ir t h e s u m m a r y t h a t w a s b e in g

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
r e fe r r e d t o w it h r e g a r d t o t h e f li g h t s is p a r a g r a p h 1 5 .0 4 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: On page 315.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . T h e n y o u m o v e t o R 4 3 5 0 0 . 0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir a n d t h e n t h e – th e s u m m a r y o f t h e

e v i d e n c e i s s e t o u t o n t h e n e x t t h r e e p a g e s . A n d t h e n I s u m m a r is e m y
fi n d i n g s o n p a g e 3 1 7 . A n d th e l a s t p a r a g r a p h o n th a t p a g e a t p a r a g r a p h
15.049 and I state:
“I
10

can

c o n c lu d e

fr o m

the

e x a m i n a ti o n

of

th e

a b o v e m e n ti o n e d d o c u m e n ts th a t P a n d a y a s o n 2 2
January

2010

p a id

the

Va r s i ty

fe e s

fo r

N a r a i n p e r s h a d ’s s o n in t h e a m o u n t o f R 4 3 5 0 0 . 0 0 .
This

payment

s u b m is s io n

was

made

was

made

just
to

s h o r t ly
the

a ft e r

the

N a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s o ff ic e o n 8 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 t o o b ta in
a u t h o r i ty fo r a c c o m m o d a ti o n o f p o li c e p e r s o n n e l
d u r i n g t h e s o c c e r W o r ld C u p a n d w h e r e it w a s
r e c o r d e d t h a t t h e o n ly s u p p li e r w h o w a s a b le t o
accommodate
20

p o li c e

personnel

was

Gold

Coast

Tr a d in g . ”
I c o n t in u e o n th e fo ll o w i n g p a g e , p a g e 3 1 8 p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 0 5 0 .
“ I n th is s p e c i fic i n s ta n c e N a r a i n p e r s h a d w a s a ls o
r e s p o n s i b l e fo r r e q u e s t i n g q u o t a t i o n s fr o m s u p p li e r s .
O n e o f w h ic h w a s C o a s t la n d s w h o a ll e g e d ly d i d n o t
respond. However Coastlands have denied that they

Page 6 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
w e r e e v e r c o n ta c t e d in th is r e g a r d a n d t h e y h a v e
in d i c a t e d th a t w h e n N a r a i n p e r s h a d p r o v id e d t h e f in a l
n u m b e r s t o th e m f o r a c c o m m o d a ti o n j u s t p r i o r t o t h e
W o r l d C u p t h e y w e r e fa r le s s th a n w h a t t h e y h a d
quoted.

N a r a in p e r s h a d w a s a p p r o a c h e d a b o u t t h e

c o n c e r n s th a t th e y h a d b u t h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e h a d
d iv i d e d th e n u m b e r s b e t w e e n th e th r e e s u p p li e r s .
can

conclude

e q u a l ly.
10

th e

numbers

were

never

I

d iv id e d

I n f a c t G o l d C o a s t Tr a d in g w a s a l lo c a t e d

1030 members 80% at a cost of R32 810 000.00 and
C o a s t la n d s , 2 0 m e m b e r s 1 6 % a t a c o s t … ”
CHAIRPERSON: 200 members.
M R W H I T E : S o r r y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 200.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is 2 0 0 m e m b e r s o r i s t h a t w r o n g .
M R W H I T E : N o i t is 2 0 0 m e m b e r s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: ja.
M R W H I T E : A t 1 6 % a t a c o s t o f R 1 8 2 7 5 0 0 .0 0 .
“Even

20

when

Panday

approached

C o a s tl a n d s

for

a s s is t a n c e d u r in g t h e s o c c e r W o r l d C u p h e a ll e g e d ly
in d i c a t e d t o t h e m t h a t h e h a d b e e n m a n d a t e d b y
h e a d o ffi c e a n d a s k e d th e m t o r e d u c e t h e ir r a te p e r
n i g h t a s h e w a s n o t m a k i n g m u c h o f a p r o fi t . T h i s is
u n tr u e a s h e w a s b i ll i n g t h e S A P S a t a r a te o f
R 8 5 0 .0 0 p e r p e r s o n p e r n i g h t . ”

Page 7 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C h a ir m a y b e ju s t t o e x p la in w h a t I a m a c t u a ll y s a y in g t h e r e is t h a t
w h e n t h e s u b m is s i o n s w e r e d o n e t o t h e N a ti o n a l O ffi c e i n 2 0 0 9 in
N o v e m b e r t h e y s a i d t h a t C o a s tl a n d s h a d n o t r e s p o n d e d t o a r e q u e s t f o r
a q u o t a ti o n .

I n fa c t m o s t o f th e s u p p li e r s t h e y a s k e d t h e y j u s t s a i d

t h e y d i d n o t r e s p o n d . I n e ff e c t a n d a s a r e s u l t G o l d C o a s t w a s t h e o n ly
s u p p li e r t h a t h a d r o o m s a v a i la b le . W h e n C o a s t la n d s w e r e in t e r v i e w e d
b y th e p o lic e i n v e s t ig a ti n g t h e m a tt e r t h e y s a i d th e y w e r e n e v e r a s k e d
t o q u o te i n 2 0 0 9 .

Th e y w e r e i n f a c t o n ly a s k e d to q u o t e in A p r il a n d

M a y o f 2 0 1 0 a n d e v e n a l th o u g h t h e y s a i d t h e y h a d a s ig n i f ic a n t n u m b e r
10

o f r o o m s a v a i l a b l e a v e r y s m a ll p o r t io n o f t h a t r o o m s – in f a c t l e s s th a n
h a l f w a s a c t u a l ly

booked

by

th e

police.

And

in

fa c t C a p t a in

Narainpershad allocated those rooms or those bookings to Gold Coast
w h o t h e n w e n t a n d b o o k e d t h e m a t C o a s tl a n d s a n d c h a r g e d t h e p o lic e a
s ig n if ic a n tly h i g h e r p r ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I w a s g o i n g to a s k w h e t h e r y o u w e r e d o n e w i t h

w h a t e v e r b e n e f i ts C o lo n e l M a d h o e m a y h a v e r e c e i v e d .
M R W H I T E:

C h a i r t h e y w e r e – n o t h e r e is m o r e C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e y

w e r e d o n e i n d a t e o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
20

M R W H I T E : I c a n j u m p a r o u n d b u t th e r e p o r t w a s ju s t s e t o u t i n d a t e
o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I t w a s s u m m a r is e d o n e a f te r t h e o th e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y – o k a y y o u c a n c o n ti n u e a s y o u h a d p l a n n e d t o
b u t m a y b e l a t e r o n y o u c a n p u t i n a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t w h e r e y o u

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
– y o u p r e p a r e it a c c o r d i n g t h e s u s p e c t s s o t o s p e a k . T h e p e r s o n s w h o
b e n e fi t te d t o m a k e i t c l e a r t h i s is t h e c a s e a g a in s t s o a n d s o , t h is is t h e
c a s e a g a i n s t s o a n d s o , t h i s is t h e c a s e a g a i n s t s o a n d s o . I h a v e n o
d o u b t t h a t i t is i n y o u r r e p o r t it i s a q u e s t i o n o f i t h a s b e e n a r r a n g e d i n
a c e r t a i n w a y a n d I w o u ld p r e f e r – i t w o u l d b e c o n v e n i e n t f o r m e i f I
c o u l d h a v e a d o c u m e n t w h ic h m a k e s it c le a r li k e t h a t a c c o r d in g to
C o l o n e l M a d h o e w h a t d id h e d o , w h a t d i d h e b e n e fi t . T h e n e x t o n e a n d
so on and so on.
M R W H I T E : I c a n d o th a t C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Okay so but for now we can continue the way you

have arranged it.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir t h e – th e w i t n e s s w il l c e r t a i n ly p r e p a r e
t h a t fo r y o u a n d I u n d e r s ta n d th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e o n ly i s s u e t h a t a n a d v a n t a g e o f d o in g i t
in t h i s w a y a n d e x p la in i n g t h e e v i d e n c e in t h is w a y ju s t a t t h is s ta g e is
w i t h r e fe r e n c e t o t h e t i m e li n e th a t w e l o o k e d a t y e s t e r d a y w i t h r e g a r d
t o s i g n i fi c a n t e v e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o w h e r e h e g o e s l ik e th is th e n y o u c a n s e e
t h e g i f ts , t h e d a t e o f t h e g if t a n d w h a t s i g n i fi c a n t e v e n t i n t h e
procurement process occurred.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o th a t is f in e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And – I just – I understood that as the

[i n d is t in c t] .

Page 9 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o , n o t h a t is fi n e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e . J a . O k a y.
MR WHITE:

O k a y C h a ir s o t h e fo u r t h p a y m e n t w a s t h e p a y m e n t t o

G a m e s t o r e s th a t i s i n t h e m id d l e o f p a g e 3 1 8 .

It was an amount of

R 7 1 5 4 . 0 0 . C h a ir t h a t w a s t h e p a y m e n t fo r t h e tr e a d m i ll t h a t w a s
d e li v e r e d t o C a p ta in N a r a i n p e r s h a d ’s h o u s e .

A n d C h a ir I s u m m a r is e

m y f i n d i n g r e l a ti n g to t h a t o n p a g e 3 2 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t a m o u n t i s w r it t e n i n a n u n u s u a l w a y b e c a u s e o f
10

t h a t c o m m a , is i t n o t ? R 7 1 5 4 . 0 0 .
M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir t h r o u g h o u t m y r e p o r t I h a v e p u t c o m m a s b e tw e e n
the thousands.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R W H I T E : T h o u s a n d s a n d t h e m i ll io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M R W H I T E : A n d th e n w h e r e i t is c e n ts i t h a s a f u l l s t o p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , ja . N o , n o , n o t h a t i s fi n e . I t i s j u s t l o o k s u n u s u a l
t o t h e e y e . O k a y a lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
M R W H I T E:

20

S o C h a ir I s u m m a r is e th e f i n d i n g s t o t h a t a t p a g e 3 2 2 i n

p a r a g r a p h 1 5 .0 6 5 a t t h e t o p o f th a t p a g e . S o r r y C h a ir I h a v e j u m p e d .
S o r r y I s h o u ld b e a t p a g e 3 1 9 C h a ir s o r r y. T h e p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 5 6 a t t h e
bottom of the page.
“I

can

conclude

a b o v e m e n ti o n e d
purchased

fr o m

d o c u m e n ts

a Tr o ja n

the
that

tr e a d m i ll i n

Page 10 of 158

e x a m i n a t io n
Panday
the

of
has

amount of

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
R 7 1 5 4 . 0 0 o n h i s c r e d i t c a r d w h ic h w a s d e l iv e r e d t o
t h e r e s i d e n t ia l a d d r e s s o f N a r a i n p e r s h a d o n 2 6
F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 0 . T h is p u r c h a s e w a s m a d e s u b s e q u e n t
to

the

SAPS

a p p li c a t io n

to

the

N a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r ’s o ff ic e o n 8 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 t o o b ta in
a u t h o r i ty

for

a c c o m m o d a ti o n

of

p o l ic e

members

w h e r e i t is r e c o r d e d t h a t t h e o n ly s u p p l i e r w h o w a s
a b l e t o a c c o m m o d a te p o li c e p e r s o n n e l w a s G o ld
C o a s t Tr a d in g . T h is p u r c h a s e s w a s a ls o m a d e p r io r
10

t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f P a n d a y ’s r e l a t e d e n t it ie s f o r a
n u m b e r o f o r d e r s b e fo r e t h e s o c c e r W o r l d C u p . ”
C h a ir t h e – th e f i f th p a y m e n t a t t h e t o p o f p a g e 3 2 0 is t h e To y o ta
C o r o ll a v e h ic l e i n a n a m o u n t o f R 6 0 0 0 0 .0 0 .

C h a i r w i ll r e c a l l t h a t

y e s t e r d a y th a t w a s t h e v e h ic l e w e s p o k e a b o u t t h a t w a s p u r c h a s e d fr o m
A d v o c a t e C a r s . A n d I s u m m a r i s e m y fi n d i n g s o n p a g e 3 2 2
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o n d e r w h e th e r t h e o w n e r o f t h a t b u s i n e s s w a s

o n c e a n a d v o c a te .
MR WHITE: At page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e M r W h i t e .
20

M R W H I T E : 3 2 2 a t t h e to p o f t h e p a g e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 0 6 5 .
“I

can

c o n c lu d e

a b o v e m e n ti o n e d

fr o m

the

d o c u m e n ts

e x a m i n a ti o n
that

of

Panday

th e
has

p u r c h a s e d a 2 0 0 2 To y o t a C o r o l l a i n t h e a m o u n t o f
R60 000.00 for Mr T Madhoe on 8 March 2010. This
purchase

was

made

subsequent

Page 11 of 158

to

the

SAPS

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
a p p lic a ti o n to t h e N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r ’s o ff ic e o n
8

October

2009

to

obtain

a u t h o r i ty

for

the

a c c o m m o d a ti o n o f p o l ic e m e m b e r s d u r in g t h e s o c c e r
W o r l d C u p w h e r e i t is r e c o r d e d t h a t o n ly s u p p li e r
w a s a b l e to a c c o m m o d a te p o l ic e p e r s o n n e l n a m e ly
G o l d C o a s t Tr a d in g .

I n a d d i ti o n th is p u r c h a s e w a s

a ls o m a d e p r i o r to t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f P a n d a y ’s
r e l a t e d e n ti ti e s f o r a n u m b e r o f o r d e r s b e f o r e th e
s o c c e r W o r l d C u p s p e c i fi c a ll y t h e fi n a l o r d e r is s u e d
t o G o l d C o a s t Tr a d i n g i n t h e a m o u n t R 2 6 3 2 0 2 5 0 . 0 0

10

dated 10 June 2010.”
C h a ir t h e s ix t h p a y m e n t i s d i r e c t ly b e lo w t h a t.

Th a t is t h e p a y m e n t

r e l a ti n g t o th e D is h R e s t a u r a n t w h i c h is i n th e R o y a l P a l m H o t e l a n d
t h e a m o u n t w a s R 1 8 7 1 2 . 0 0 . C h a ir I s u m m a r is e t h e f i n d in g s a n d t h e r e
is a n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n ts in b e t w e e n a s w e ll a s e x tr a c ts fr o m t h e
v a r io u s

a ffi d a v i t s

r e la t in g

to

th e

i n v o lv e m e n t

C o m m i s s i o n e r i n t r y i n g to s to p t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

of

th e

Pr o v i n c i a l

T h o s e a r e e x tr a c ts

fr o m Br ig a d i e r K e m p t a n d M a j o r G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ’s a ffi d a v i t s a n d I
s u m m a r i s e t h e fi n d i n g s a t p a g e 3 3 7 a n d 8 a n d i t s ta r t s i n t h e m i d d l e o f
20

t h e p a g e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 0 9 5 a n d I s t a te :
“ I c a n c o n c lu d e fr o m t h e e x a m in a ti o n o f t h e a b o v e m e n ti o n e d d o c u m e n t s
t h a t P a n d a y h a s p a id t h e c o s t o f L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l N g u b e n i’s
h u s b a n d ’s b i r th d a y p a r ty.

It was held at the Royal Palm Hotel in

U m h l a n g a R o c k s o n 2 9 M a y 2 0 1 0 . T h e c o s t o f t h i s s e r v ic e a m o u n te d t o
R20 962.00.”

Page 12 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C h a ir t h a t i n c lu d e s th e a m o u n t th a t w a s p a id t o t h e D J o f th e e v e n in g .
“Panday

a ls o

r e q u e s te d

Mr

Singh

who

is

th e

O p e r a t o r o r M a n a g e r o f t h e r e s t a u r a n t to i n fl a te a n
in v o ic e fo r th is f u n c ti o n t o th e a m o u n t o f R 2 9 7 1 2 . 0 0
a n d to f u r t h e r p r e p a r e th e i n v o ic e i n t h e f a v o u r o f M s
B M Ngubeni.

I c a n n o t d e t e r m in e o n w h a t b a s is

P a n d a y w o u l d h a v e r e q u e s t e d M r S i n g h to h a v e
is s u e d h i m w i t h a n o t h e r i n v o ic e a t a n in f la t e d a m o u n t
a n d th e r e f o r e c a n n o t c o n c lu d e w h y t h is w o u ld h a v e
10

b e e n d o n e . H o w e v e r I c a n c o n c lu d e t h a t t h is g i f t o r
g r a t i fi c a t io n t o L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l N g u b e n i w a s d o n e
s h o r tl y b e f o r e t h e d e p lo y m e n t s f o r t h e s o c c e r W o r l d
C u p a n d t h e f in a l o r d e r. I t w a s i s s u e d to G o l d C o a s t
Tr a d in g i n th e a m o u n t o f R 2 6 3 2 0 2 5 0 . 0 0 d a te d 1 0
June 2010.”
C o n ti n u e o n t h e fo ll o w i n g p a g e , p a g e 3 3 8 .
“ I n a d d i ti o n L ie u t e n a n t G e n e r a l N g u b e n i w a s a w a r e
fr o m r e p o r t r e c e iv e d f r o m B r i g a d ie r K e m p t t h a t t h e r e
w a s a n u n u s u a ll y h i g h e x p e n d i tu r e f o r d e t a c h m e n t

20

d u t ie s i n t h e p r o v i n c e a n d t h a t S A P S S C M w e r e n o t
c o m p ly i n g w it h t h e i r S C M P o li c y w h e n m a k in g th e s e
a p p o i n t m e n ts w h ic h r e p o r ts w e r e r e c e iv e d j u s t p r i o r
t o t h e d a t e o f h e r h u s b a n d ’s 5 0 t h b ir t h d a y p a r t y. S h e
a ls o a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n i n s tr u m e n ta l i n a tt e m p t in g
t o s to p th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n . ”

Page 13 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
The seventh payment to…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Please go back to 337 – page 337.

Mr Panday

r e q u e s t e d t h a t a fu r t h e r i n v o i c e b e p r e p a r e d i n fa v o u r o f M s B M
N g u b e n i . T h a t w o u l d b e t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h e s ig n if ic a n c e o f th a t i n v o i c e – o f a f u r th e r
in v o ic e b e i n g i n f a v o u r o f M s B M N g u b e n i ?
10

M R W H I T E : C h a ir I –
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u a r e a b le t o in d i c a te ?

I take it that when he

t a lk s a b o u t a fu r t h e r i n v o ic e I t a k e i t t h a t th e r e w a s o n e i n v o i c e t h a t
w e n t to M r P a n d a y a n d n o w h e w a s – h e a s k e d t h e p e o p l e t o p r e p a r e
a n o t h e r i n v o ic e i n fa v o u r o f Ms N g o b e n i .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir a ll I c a n – I c a n t h in k is t h a t M r P a n d a y w a s –

w a s w a n ti n g t o s h o w t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m is s io n e r th a t h e h a d a c t u a l ly
p a i d fo r s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s m o r e e x p e n s i v e th a t h e a c t u a ll y – h is
a c t u a l c o s t i n c u r r e d . T h a t is t h e o n ly in f e r e n c e I c a n m a k e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

But

is

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g

the

same

as

the

u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u g a i n e d w h e n y o u d i d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n n a m e ly t h a t
t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r e c e i p t o r i n v o ic e – o r in v o ic e f o r t h a t w e n t to
M r P a n d a y a n d a n o t h e r i n v o ic e o r a f u r t h e r i n v o i c e t h a t w e n t t o M s
N g o b e n i?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir t h e f u r t h e r i n v o i c e d id n o t g o to P C N g o b e n i i t a l s o
w e n t to M r P a n d a y. S o h e g o t b o t h . B u t t h e r e is j u s t …

Page 14 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : It – b u t i t w a s i n h e r n a m e is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R W H I T E:

C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d m a y b e i f I c o u l d r e f e r to t h e s p e c i f ic

d o c u m e n t j u s t – i t m a y b e e a s ie r t o e x p l a i n a n d a c o p y o f th a t – th e
s e c o n d i n v o i c e is a t p a g e 3 2 5 a n d o n e c a n s e e a t t h e to p o f th e p a g e
that is just a photocopy of the document.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I n t h e b o x in t h e m i d d l e i t s a y th e c u s t o m e r i s Ms B M
CHAIRPERSON: Ngobeni.
M R W H I T E: N g o b e n i a n d t h e n o n t h e r ig h t h a n d s i d e t h e jo b n u m b e r, i t
10

s a y s M r P a n d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : N o w C h a ir t h a t i n v o i c e w a s n o t a c t u a l ly p a i d b e c a u s e t h e
a c t u a l p r ic e w a s R 1 8 7 1 2 . 0 0 f o r t h e s a m e s e r v ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t – s o t h e – is i t c o r r e c t t h a t th e r e w e r e t w o
in v o ic e s th e r e ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I d o n o t r e c a l l i f I s a w t h e f ir s t i n v o i c e b u t I k n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e f o r R 1 8 0 0 0 .0 0 a n d th e n th is o n e .
M R W H I T E : B u t t h e a m o u n t a c t u a ll y p a i d w a s R 1 8 7 1 2 .0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

S o t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a s e p a r a t e i n v o i c e fo r

that?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a i r c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h is i n v o i c e .
MR WHITE: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h d i d n o t r e p r e s e n t t h e tr u e p o s i ti o n .
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 15 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f th e p r i c e .
MR WHITE: Correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e – d i d th e s e p e o p l e e x p l a i n w h y t h e y a g r e e d t o
do this?
M R W H I T E : T h e y d i d n o t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e y h a v e n o t b e e n a s k e d ?
M R W H I T E: T h e y h a v e b e e n a s k e d a n d p r o v id e d a s t a t e m e n t a n d t h e y
s a i d t h e y – M r P a n d a y a s k e d t h e m t o d o i t s o t h e y d id i t . T h e y d id n o t
– they just did what he asked them to do.
10

CHAIRPERSON: So it may have been shown to Ms Ngobeni but you do
not know?
M R W H I T E : I d o n o t k n o w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i t s p u r p o s e c o u l d o n ly h a v e b e e n o r w o u l d

p r o b a b ly h a v e b e e n t h a t t h a t is t h e o n e th a t s h e w o u l d s e e ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t w o u l d b e in f e r e n c e t h a t I w o u l d d r a w C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r w i s e w h a t w a s th e p o i n t ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y a lr i g h t.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I f I m i g h t j u s t r e m in d y o u C o lo n e l Va n

L o g g e r e n b e r g t e s t if i e d a b o u t t h is a n d h e s a i d h e p e r s o n a ll y w e n t to t h i s
r e s t a u r a n t a n d s p o k e t o M r S i n g h a b o u t w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d a n d h e
s a i d t h a t t h e r e w o u l d – t h e t w o f a c to r s . T h e o n e w a s p u t t h e i n v o ic e i n
the name of Ms Ngobeni.

T h e s e c o n d w a s in f la t e th e a m o u n t .

Page 16 of 158

The

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
w i t n e s s a p p e a r s to b e a d d r e s s in g th e s e c o n d a s p e c t w h y w o u ld h e
in fl a t e t h e a m o u n t .
more.

T h a t m i g h t b e to s h o w M s N g o b e n i t h a t h e p a i d

C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g s u r m is e d p e r h a p s t h e r e w a s a t a x

r e a s o n to t h is . B u t i n r e g a r d t o th e f ir s t a s p e c t c h a n g e th e n a m e o f t h e
in v o ic e .

H e a d m i t t e d t h a t h e d i d c h a n g e t h e n a m e s o t h a t t h e f ir s t

in v o ic e w a s in th e n a m e Mr P a n d a y. I f I m i g h t j u s t a d d r e s s t h a t a s p e c t
w i t h t h e w i tn e s s ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : If h e h a s k n o w l e d g e o f i t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

I f t h i s in v o ic e a n d w h ic h y o u n o w

c a t e g o r is e a s a g i f t w a s i n t h e n a m e o f M r P a n d a y p a y i n g f o r a b ir t h d a y
p a r t y o f M s N g o b e n i w o u l d th e r e b e a p a p e r tr a i l b e t w e e n t h e g i ft p a i d
b y M r P a n d a y a n d Ms N g o b e n i ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r th e r e is a p a p e r t r a il f o r R 8 7 1 2 . 0 0 . S o t h e fir s t
d e p o s it w a s m a d e i n c a s h b y M r P a n d a y.

T h e b a la n c e o f t h e m o n e y

w a s p a id u s in g h is c r e d i t c a r d . S o – s o th e r e is s o m e w a y o f t r a c i n g i t
a s a r e s u l t b u t C h a ir t h e o th e r p o i n t t h e r e is n o t a x b e n e fi t i n d o i n g
what was done here.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E: B e c a u s e i f t h i s in v o ic e w a s m a d e o u t i n t h e n a m e o f G o ld
C o a s t t h e n t h e y c o u ld c l a i m i t a s a n e x p e n s e a s p a r t o f t h e ir n o r m a l
b u s i n e s s . B u t t h e f a c t t h a t t h e i n v o ic e is m a d e o u t t o Ms B M N g o b e n i
o r e v e n M r P a n d a y i n h is p e r s o n a l n a m e w o u l d m e a n h is c o m p a n y
c a n n o t c l a i m i t a s a n e x p e n s e f o r t a x p u r p o s e s . S o i n fl a ti n g i t t h e r e is

Page 17 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
n o r e a s o n t o i n fl a te i t f o r t a x p u r p o s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E:

B e c a u s e t h e r e w o u l d – o t h e r w i s e it w o u l d h a v e t o h a v e

b e e n m a d e o u t in t h e n a m e o f G o l d C o a s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o l e t u s g o b a c k – l e a v e t h e i n fl a ti o n o f t h e
in v o ic e f o r th e m o m e n t l e t u s f o c u s o n ly o n t h e c h a n g e fr o m t h e n a m e
o f M r P a n d a y in t o t h e n a m e o f M s N g o b e n i .

I f th is p a r t y h a d b e e n

in v o ic e d t o Ms N g o b e n i a n d s h e h a d p a i d f o r th e p a r t y w o u l d th e r e h a v e
10

b e e n a n y d i ff ic u l ty ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f t h is w a s i n v o i c e d o u t t o M s N g o b e n i a s w e
– s o o n t h e f a c e o f i t if i t h a d b e e n i n v o ic e d t o h e r a n d s h e h a d p a id f o r
it t h e r e w o u ld b e n o d i ffi c u l ty ?
M R W H I T E: C h a ir t h e r e w o u l d n o t b e b u t t h e r e i s a m i s t a k e i n tr y i n g t o
d o t h a t in t h is in v o ic e is t h a t M r P a n d a y ’s n a m e s t il l a p p e a r s o n t h e
f a c e o f th e d o c u m e n t u n d e r j o b n u m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I w a s a b o u t t o s a y th a t t h e …
M R W H I T E : S o t h e y d i d n o t a c h i e v e t h a t o b j e c ti v e i f th a t i s w h a t th e y

20

w e r e tr y i n g t o d o .

T h e y s h o u l d h a v e h a d h is n a m e n o w h e r e o n t h e

document.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a i t w o u l d b e i n te r e s t i n g t o k n o w w h a t M r P a n d a y

w o u ld h a v e to s a y a b o u t w h y h i s n a m e a p p e a r s h e r e i n a n i n v o ic e t h a t
is m a d e t o c u s to m e r B M N g o b e n i . J a .
M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir j u s t – j u s t in t h a t r e g a r d . N o n e o f th e s u s p e c t s

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w e r e in t e r v i e w e d . I m e a n t h e –
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E:

Th e i n te n ti o n w a s th a t o n c e a c h a r g e s h e e t h a d b e e n

d r a w n u p w a r n i n g s ta t e m e n ts w o u ld b e t a k e n b y t h e p o l ic e a n d a ll
t h e s e q u e s t i o n s w o u l d b e p u t to t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I f th e y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja .
M R W H I T E : I f th e y d i d n o t d e c i d e t o r e m a i n s i le n t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e i t l e a v e s – i t l e a v e s i t a s a n i n c o m p l e t e s to r y
in th e s e n s e t h a t m a y b e a t le a s t in r e g a r d t o c e r t a i n m a t t e r s . Yo u d o
n o t k n o w w h a t t h e e x p l a n a t i o n is th a t m a y b e g i v e n ?
M R W H I T E : I d o n o t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . O k a y th a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr W h i t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k c o u n s e l f o r – y e s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: J u d g e I d o n o t w a n t to in t e r j e c t a n d I h a v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N I K L A L L:

20

I n o t ic e p a ti e n t ly th a t e v e r y o n e a p p e a r e d to b e

s tr u g g li n g a li t tl e b i t w i th t h i s is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: B u t J u d g e th e r e i s n o s e c r e t a b o u t t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o h .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: Ye s J u d g e i t is fil e d i n h i g h c o u r t p a p e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.

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A D V M A N IK L A L L: A lr e a d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is i t s o ?
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h e fu ll e x p l a n a t io n i s u n d e r o a t h b y M s N g o b e n i .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: I t s e e m s t h a t th e w i t n e s s a n d t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Have not…
A D V M A N I K LA L L :

Have not disclosed at all maybe have not seen it

themselves.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja well – well if…
10

A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h a t w il l c o m e i n o u r r e p ly J u d g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l t h a n k y o u fo r th a t i n fo r m a t i o n . T h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s
a n d t h e l e g a l t e a m i f t h e y g o t t o k n o w a b o u t t h a t s h o u ld h a v e m a d e
sure we have got those papers.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: J u d g e y e s t e r d a y i n a n ti c ip a ti o n o f t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: I m e n ti o n e d i t to t h e ju n i o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h a t i t is a l r e a d y fi le d i n – o v e r a t t h e h i g h c o u r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h e r e is n o – t h e r e i s n o s e c r e t a b o u t th is J u d g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: S o w e – I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h a n k f o r th a t I s a y t o t h e l e g a l te a m a ll t h e t i m e
if t h e r e i s a w i t n e s s w h o i s g o i n g t o b e c a l le d a n d s o m e o f t h e is s u e s
t h a t h e o r s h e i s g o in g t o d e a l w i t h a r e is s u e s w h ic h h a v e b e e n c o v e r e d

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in s o m e l it i g a t io n g e t t h e p a p e r s fr o m t h a t li ti g a t i o n – fr o m c o u r t s o th a t
w e h a v e a s c o m p l e te a p ic t u r e a s p o s s ib l e o f w h a t is h a p p e n in g .
A D V M A N IK L A L L :

Judge.

I t is a b s o l u te ly c o r r e c t i n fa c t I w i ll e v e n

s u p p ly t h e m t h e c a s e n u m b e r s a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a p le a s e i f y o u c a n g i v e th e c a s e n u m b e r.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: I t is a m a t te r o f p u b l ic r e c o r d s o i t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: I t w il l a s s i s t w i th …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w i th a l l o f th o s e t h i n g s .
10

A D V M A N IK L A L L: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . T h a n k y o u .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h a n k y o u J u d g e .
MR WHITE: Thank you.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Did ….?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Fo r t h e r e c o r d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A p p a r e n t ly s o m e th in g w a s m e n t io n e d t o m y

ju n i o r, b u t i t w a s n o t c o n v e y e d t o m e .
20

S o I d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t th a t .

W h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d , b u t i f I c a n d e a l w i t h t h is p e r h a p s w i t h th e
witness.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

W e l l m y c o n c e r n i s h o w d id i t c o m e a b o u t t h a t

t h e le g a l t e a m d i d n o t k n o w a n d th e i n v e s t ig a to r s d i d n o t k n o w. I t m a y
b e t h a t t h e le g a l t e a m m i g h t n o t k n o w, b u t I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t
t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s w h e n t h e y in v e s ti g a t e t h e y w o u l d g e t t o k n o w th a t

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t h e r e w a s l i ti g a t i o n a n d t h e y w o u ld m e n t i o n t h a t t o t h e l e g a l t e a m a n d
t h e le g a l t e a m w o u l d t h e n s a y. L e t u s g e t h o l d o f th o s e p a p e r s s o t h a t
w e h a v e a f u l l p ic tu r e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir. A p p a r e n t ly t h i s w a s m e n ti o n e d a t
4 o ’ c l o c k y e s t e r d a y a f t e r n o o n . I c a n te ll y o u th a t I w a s n o t a w a r e o f o f t h i s , b u t w h a t I w o u ld s u g g e s t is t h a t I g e t a c o p y o f t h e e x p l a n a t io n
a n d I w il l a d d r e s s it w i th t h is w i tn e s s t o d a y.

I w i ll , b u t I d o n o t

o b v i o u s l y w a n t t o d o i t w i th o u t c o n s u lt i n g t h e w i t n e s s o n t h is is s u e . S o
if w e c a n …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No. That …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : P a r k t h is f o r a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s f i n e , b u t a ls o d o n o t d e a l w i th i t i f y o u h a v e
n o t d o n e th e h o m e w o r k - s o t o s p e a k .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u g e t - g e t th o s e p a p e r s a n d …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And I see …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d g e t t h e w h o l e s to r y f ir s t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

B u t, I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d y o u t o h a v e a s k e d th e

in v e s t i g a t o r s t h e s e w i t n e s s e s - a r e th e r e n o m a t t e r s w h ic h h a v e b e e n
t o c o u r t th a t t h e y w i ll b e d e a li n g w i th , b e c a u s e y o u r e m e m b e r i n r e g a r d
t o th e I P I D w i t n e s s e s a s - a s w e l l a s G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .

I said let us

g e t a l l li t i g a t io n , c o u r t p a p e r s , ju d g m e n t s , a ffi d a v i ts .
G e t e v e r y t h i n g th a t m a y b e r e le v a n t t o g i v e u s a w h o l e
p ic t u r e .

S o I w o u ld h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e s a i d t o t h e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
in v e s t i g a t o r s is th e r e a n y li ti g a ti o n t h a t is r e l e v a n t t o th is …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f th e y d o n o t k n o w. S o m e b o d y m u s t ju s t c h e c k ,
b e c a u s e s o m e o f - o f th e s e th i n g s a r e j u s t in t h e p u b lic d o m a i n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir t h e o n ly i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t h a s b e e n

d r a w n to m y a tt e n ti o n b y t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s - I m e a n t h e - th e c o u r t
a p p lic a ti o n s is th e a p p l ic a t i o n s t o h a v e t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s s e i z e d
10

a n d t h o s e s u b p o e n a s s e t a s i d e p u r s u a n t to w h i c h t h e e v i d e n c e w a s
s e i z e d . S o I w a s a w a r e o f t h a t li ti g a ti o n .
I w a s a w a r e t h a t th a t w a s d is m i s s e d a n d t h a t a f t e r t h a t t h e r e
was the attempt to bribe General Booysen.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d o w e h a v e th e p a p e r s r e la t in g to t h a t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . W e d o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w e h a v e t h e - t h e ju d g m e n t a s w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: So we have all those papers.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: I have never been told about or shown these.
I c a n g e t a n d I w il l g e t a n e x p l a n a ti o n fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s a s t o h o w,
w h e r e o r i f th e y d i d k n o w a b o u t th is a n d I w il l r e p o r t b a c k t o y o u o n
that issue.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

No.

Th a t is f i n e , b u t j u s t r e m e m b e r I a lw a y s

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
e m p h a s is e th e i n v e s ti g a to r s m u s t b e g u i d e d b y t h e l e g a l t e a m . Yo u a r e
the people who know what may be presented at the hearing. What …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

May not be presented.

Yo u a r e th e p e o p l e w h o a r e

d r i v i n g t h e p r o c e s s o f p r e s e n t i n g e v id e n c e a n d t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s n e e d
g u i d a n c e a s to w h a t th e y m u s t p u r s u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

I - I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n d - a n d c l e a r ly

C h a ir i f I h a d b e e n t o l d t h is a t 4 o ’ c l o c k y e s t e r d a y a f te r n o o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e f ir s t th i n g I w o u ld h a v e d o n e is o b t a i n

t h e s e p a p e r s a n d b e i n a p o s i ti o n to p r o p e r ly a d d r e s s y o u th is m o r n i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o . W e ll …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I - I a p o l o g i s e f o r th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e tt i n g t o k n o w y e s t e r d a y i s t o o - th is m o r n in g is to o
s h o r t a ti m e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I t is t o o s h o r t a ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

To g e t t h e p a p e r s .

S o - s o t h e r e - t h e r e w o u ld n o t

h a v e b e e n m u c h ti m e t o g e t th e p a p e r s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No. I understand.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

J a , b u t t h e p r o c e s s to g e t t h e p a p e r s m u s t s t a r t a s

s o o n a s p o s s ib le .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I t w il l s ta r t a s s o o n a s p o s s i b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . L e t u s c o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w i f I c a n j u s t c o n ti n u e w i t h w h a t y o u k n o w
M r W h i te .

F r o m y o u r i n v e s ti g a t i o n s d i d M s N g o b e n i e v e r p a y th is

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
in v o ic e ?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, s h e - s h e d i d n o t p a y th e r e s ta u r a n t - t h e D i s h

R e s ta u r a n t .

S h e d id n o t p a y t h a t a n d fr o m w h a t I c o u ld s e e i n t h e

r e c o r d s o f G o ld C o a s t a n d t h e v a r i o u s o t h e r e n t it i e s a s w e ll a s
M r P a n d a y ’s b a n k a c c o u n t s .

T h e r e w a s n o p a y m e n t fr o m h e r p a y in g

t h e m o n e y b a c k to M r P a n d a y e i t h e r.
S o C h a i r ju s t f o r t h e r e c o r d I w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t M s N g o b e n i
h a d c h a l le n g e d th is m a t t e r i n a c o u r t p r o c e e d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R W H I T E : I a m o n ly a w a r e o f w h a t I h a v e r e a d i n n e w s p a p e r s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W h e r e s h e s a id s h e p a id t h e m o n e y b a c k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : To M r P a n d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e r e is n o e v i d e n c e t h a t I h a v e s e e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: That she did pay it back …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R W H I T E : A n d n e it h e r w e r e i n a n y n e w s p a p e r a r tic le s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

Wa s th e r e s o m e t h i n g s h o w i n g s h e h a d p a id t h e m o n e y

back.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : I w o u ld a l s o b e i n t e r e s t e d t o s e e w h a t t h o s e …

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : C o u r t p a p e r s s h o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r W h i te i f y o u c o u l d t h e n y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i th y o u r c o n c l u s i o n w i t h r e g a r d to t h i s p a y m e n t .

I

t h i n k i t w a s a t p a g e 3 - 3 - 7 to e i g h t - 3 - 3 - 8 . I f y o u c o u l d d e a l w i t h t h a t .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir I c o m p l e t e d t h a t a n d th e n w e ju s t w e n t b a c k i n

r e s p o n s e t o y o u r q u e s ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.
10

M R W H I T E : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h e - t h e s e v e n t h p a y m e n t c o n t in u e s a t p a g e 3 - 3 - 8
a n d t h a t i s th e P r o t e a H o t e l Wa t e r fr o n t in R ic h a r d s B a y a n d t h e
s u m m a r y o f m y fi n d i n g s i s a t p a g e 3 4 0 a n d I s a y :
“ I c a n c o n c l u d e f r o m t h e e x a m i n a t io n o f t h e a b o v e
m e n ti o n e d d o c u m e n ts t h a t P a n d a y p a id t h e c o s t fo r
a c c o m m o d a ti o n o f N a r a i n p e r s a d a t t h e P r o t e a H o t e l
Wa t e r fr o n t
3 April 2010

20

R ic h a r d s
to

Bay

5 April 2010

during
in

th e

the

p e r io d

amount

of

R7 256,00.”
C h a ir, t h e n t h e la s t p a y m e n t w a s a p a y m e n t to E u r o p e C a r i n
the amount of R1 535,92.

C h a ir, I d o n o t m a k e a s p e c if ic c o n c l u s io n

a b o u t M a j o r - G e n e r a l R S P i ll a y ’s i n v o lv e m e n t .

I just summarised the

f a c ts a s in s u m m a r i s i n g t h a t h e w a s t h e p e r s o n th a t h ir e d t h is v e h ic l e
a t t h e D u r b a n I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t a n d t h a t i t w a s p a i d f o r b y G o l d

Page 26 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C o a s t Tr a d i n g . C h a ir, I th e n …
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h e r e a n y p a r t ic u l a r r e a s o n y o u d i d n o t m a k e a n y

conclusion?
M R W H I T E : T h e r e is n o - C h a ir, I d o n o t - I d o n o t k n o w w h y I d i d n o t.
I a c tu a l ly o n ly n o t ic e d la s t n ig h t w h e n I w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : P r e p a r i n g fo r th is m o r n i n g t h a t I - t h a t I h a d n o t , b u t I d o
r e fe r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R W H I T E : To h i m i n - i n t h e - i n t h e fi n a l c o n c l u s i o n s a t - a t t h e e n d
o f m y r e p o r t C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d C h a i r m a y b e i t w o u l d th e n b e a p p r o p r i a t e t o r e f e r t o
t h a t w h ic h is a t p a g e 5 0 9 w h ic h is t h e la s t t w o p a g e s i n th a t b u n d l e RR4A.

J u s t - I s u m m a r i s e m y f in d i n g s m o s t o f w h ic h I h a v e a l r e a d y

r e fe r r e d to - t o y e s te r d a y. T h e r e i s e ff e c t iv e ly t h r e e p a r a g r a p h s a t t h e
v e r y e n d t h a t - t h a t d r a w i t a ll t o g e t h e r s t a r ti n g a t p a r a g r a p h 2 1 . 0 - 2 - 4 .
T h e s e c o n d t o la s t p a r a g r a p h a t p a g e 5 0 9 a n d th o s e p a r a g r a p h s r e a d
a s fo ll o w s :
20

“ P a n d a y w it h t h e a s s i s t a n c e o f Pr iv i s h a P a n d a y h is w i f e - a n d A r v e n d a P a n d a y - h is m o t h e r - s e t u p
a n u m b e r o f e n t it i e s w h ic h h e c o n tr o l le d , b u t g a v e
the impression they were independent of each
o th e r.

T h e s e e n ti ti e s w e r e th e n u s e d w i t h th e

a s s is t a n c e

of

Madhoe,

Narainpersad

Page 27 of 158

and

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
M a jo r - G e n e r a l P i ll a y

to

make

various

m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s to t h e S A P S a n d i n s o d o in g
m a n i p u l a te d t h e S A P S p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s s o th a t
t h e y w e r e a w a r d e d o r d e r s fo r t h e s u p p l y o f g o o d s
a n d a c c o m m o d a t io n a t s i g n i fi c a n tl y i n fl a t e d p r ic e s
that

were

not

L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l N g o b e n i
in v e s t i g a t io n

into

the

market

related.

intervened

in

procurement

the

related

p r o c e d u r e s a n d tr ie d t o p u t a s t o p t o a n y f u r t h e r
10

in v e s t i g a t io n b y g iv i n g d ir e c t i n s tr u c ti o n s in t h is
regard.”
A n d t h e n t h e l a s t p a r a g r a p h o n t h e la s t p a g e - 5 1 0 .
“ D u r i n g th e s a m e p e r io d t h e g o o d s / a c c o m m o d a ti o n
w a s b e i n g s u p p li e d b y P a n d a y l in k e d e n ti ti e s a t
in fl a t e d p r ic e s t o t h e p r e j u d ic e o f th e S A P S a n d
w h e n L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l N g o b e n i tr i e d t o s t o p a n y
f u r th e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . P a n d a y w a s m a k i n g p a y m e n t s
o n b e h a l f o f o r p u r c h a s i n g v a r i o u s it e m s f r o m
a ir f a r e s , a c a r, a c c o m m o d a ti o n , a b ir th d a y p a r ty

20

e tc e t e r a

for

Madhoe,

M a jo r - G e n e r a l P i ll a y

N a r a in p e r s a d ,
and

L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l N g o b e n i . ”
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr W h i t e y o u h a v e s a i d b r o a d ly t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

D o e s t h a t c o n c l u d e t h e fi n d i n g s th a t I

Page 28 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
was looking for …
M R W H I T E : I t d o e s C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e r e w e r e s t il l s o m e o u t s t a n d i n g ?
M R W H I T E : I t d o e s in t h e f o r m a t th a t - t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It d o e s ?
M R W H I T E : I h a v e in c l u d e d i n th is r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r W h i te a r e t h e r e n o t s o m e f u r t h e r o v e r a ll

fi n d i n g s w h ic h y o u m a k e f r o m p a r a g r a p h s 1 5 .1 . 1 .3 t o 1 5 . 1 .1 . 9 p a g e s
10

3-4-1 to 3-4-3?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h e r e a r e . I t is - i t i s fa ir l y s i m i la r t o w h a t I h a v e
a lr e a d y s a i d i n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r e ls e w h e r e in m y e v i d e n c e t o d a t e .
I t is ju s t w o r d e d - i t is j u s t s u m m a r is e d o n t h o s e t w o p a g e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank

you.

Now

with

regard

in v o lv e m e n t o f M s N g o b e n i a n d s t o p p in g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

to

the

Yo u r e a d

y o u r c o n c lu s i o n s in t h i s r e g a r d t o t h e C h a ir, b u t t h o s e c o n c l u s io n s
a p p e a r t o b e b a s e d o n a n a ffi d a v i t b y a n Ms K e m p - Br ig a d i e r K e m p
a n d a n a ffi d a v it b y G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
20

M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u d e a l w i th t h e s e a ff id a v i ts in s o m e d e t a il

in y o u r …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m j u s t th i n k i n g a b o u t th e p a p e r s a n d t h e

a p p lic a ti o n th a t w e a r e ta lk in g a b o u t . M a y b e th e r e m i g h t b e a w a y i n
t h e m e a n ti m e w it h t e c h n o lo g y f o r u s t o h a v e a s e t o f th o s e p a p e r s b y

Page 29 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
lu n c h ti m e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I c a n s e e n o r e a s o n w h y y o u s h o u l d n o t
… ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It - i t o u g h t to b e p o s s i b l e . Ye s . S o - s o c o u l d t h o s e
- t h a t b e d o n e . S o t h a t a s s o o n a s p o s s i b le s o m e b o d y c a n h a v e a l o o k
a t - a t t h e - a t t h e p a p e r s . I d o n o t k n o w h o w v o l u m in o u s t h e y m a y b e .
They are …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e y m a y b e q u i te v o l u m i n o u s , b u t l e t u s g e t h o ld o f
10

t h e m a s s o o n a s p o s s i b l e . I t h i n k c o u n s e l w a n ts t o s a y s o m e th i n g .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Sure.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h a n k y o u J u d g e . I m a y b e o f fu r t h e r a s s is ta n c e t o
t h e C o m m is s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w il l b e v e r y g r a t e f u l fo r th a t .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: Ye s . J u d g e a n d t h a t is in r e s p e c t o f th e a l le g a ti o n s
t h a t i s b e i n g r e f e r r e d to in t h e r e p o r t b y t h e w i tn e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h is w a s a s u b j e c t m a t t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

A D V M A N IK L A L L: O f a n a p p li c a t io n to s t r ik e o ff …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h a t w a s b r o u g h t b e fo r e t h e D u r b a n H i g h C o u r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: I w i ll - t r y a n d a c c e s s t h e c a s e n u m b e r r e m o t e l y a s
w e ll …

Page 30 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: To h a n d it o v e r t o m y l e a r n e d f r i e n d s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: I t is q u i t e a p p a r e n t t h a t th e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h e l e g a l t e a m a n d t h e w i t n e s s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: D o n o t h a v e m u c h k n o w l e d g e o f t h i s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h is h a p p e n e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: A fe w y e a r s a g o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N IK L A L L: B u t m a y b e s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O k a y.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h a t is t h e r e a s o n I c a n a s s u m e w h y …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h is i s n o t b e fo r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .

20

A D V M A N IK L A L L: B u t I w il l a s s i s t w it h t h e c a s e n u m b e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you.
A D V M A N IK L A L L: T h a n k y o u J u d g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u .

I a m i n d e b te d t o m y le a r n e d

fr i e n d fo r h is a s s is t a n c e . A p a r t fr o m t h e - t h e p a y m e n t o f th e b ir t h d a y

Page 31 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
p a r t y w h ic h y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o - t o L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l N g o b e n i c o u ld
y o u - y o u r e f e r t o t w o a ff id a v i ts a n d y o u q u o t e fr o m t h e m i n y o u r r e p o r t
a n d th a t i s t h e a ff id a v i t o f B r i g a d ie r K e m p a n d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
C o u ld y o u p l e a s e d e a l w i th w h a t w a s s a i d in t h o s e a ff i d a v i ts
t h a t m a d e y o u c o m e to t h e c o n c l u s io n t h a t s h e w a s i n v o l v e d in s to p p i n g
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ?
CHAIRPERSON: Where - where are you now?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: If one could start Chair at page 3-2-7.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , b u t h a v e I n o t h e a r d e v i d e n c e o f p e o p le w h o

w e r e c a ll e d b y M s N g o b e n i .

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n , I th i n k t e s t i fi e d a n d I

t h i n k h e - h e w a s c a ll e d b y - b y h i m a n d h e h a s g iv e n e v i d e n c e . I t h in k
t h e r e i s a n o t h e r w i tn e s s m a y b e - I t h i n k th e r e is a n o th e r w i t n e s s i f I a m
n o t m is t a k e n w h o - w h o s a i d h e w a s c a ll e d .

So that should not be a

p r o b le m .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

If M s N g o b e n i c o m e s a n d t e s t i fi e s a n d d e n i e s . T h a t

is fi n e , b u t th is w i t n e s s d o e s n o t h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f t h o s e
c a l ls . H e m a d e c e r ta in c o n c lu s i o n s , b u t th e r e a r e w i t n e s s e s w h o …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o - w h o h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w le d g e o f th a t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I o n ly w a n t e d i t t o b e m a d e c le a r t h a t h e
c a m e t o t h a t c o n c l u s io n o n th e b a s is o f t h e s e a ff id a v i ts t h a t w e r e
provided to him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t I th i n k i t d o e s n o t r e a l ly m a t te r w h e n w e h a v e
g o t d ir e c t e v id e n c e .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir, u n le s s y o u

h a v e f u r th e r q u e s t io n s a b o u t t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n i ts e l f a n d w h a t it
r e v e a l e d . I p r o p o s e n o w t o d e a l w i th w h a t t h e n tr a n s p ir e d w i th r e g a r d
t o M r W h i t e ’s r e p o r t a n d t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f t h e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t in g
A u t h o r i ty.
CHAIRPERSON:

How much of that would he know?

D id h is m a n d a t e

not end with the report?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H e i s - i t is d i r e c t ly i n v o l v e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u c a n c o n ti n u e t h e n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr W h it e , w h e n y o u p r e p a r e d y o u r r e p o r t d i d

y o u f ir s t p r e p a r e i t i n a d r a f t f o r m ?
M R W H I T E : I d i d C h a ir a n d I s e t it o u t i n m y a ff id a v i t a t R R 4 o n p a g e
26.

S o C h a ir i f o n e g o e s b a c k .

P r ic e w a t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s w a s

a p p o i n t e d o n 2 5 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 2 . S o m e 1 5 m o n th s la t e r o n 1 0 M a y 2 0 1 3
I p r e p a r e d a d r a ft r e p o r t . I t w a s 3 7 3 p a g e s a n d c o n t a i n e d 2 0 l e v e r a r c h
20

fi le s

of

annexures

and

that

report

was

g iv e n

to

C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g - t h e l e a d i n v e s ti g a to r i n t h e m a t te r f r o m t h e
p o li c e

and

I

was

in f o r m e d

that

it

was

then

a ls o

g iv e n

to

A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o w h o w a s t h e a s s i g n e d p r o s e c u to r i n t h e m a tt e r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d to w h i c h u n i t ? D o y o u k n o w ?
MR WHITE:

Fr o m t h e S p e c ia l C o m m e r c ia l C r i m e C o u r t i n D u r b a n .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
T h e r e w a s t h e n a m e e ti n g h e ld o n 2 1 M a y 2 0 1 3 th a t I a t t e n d e d a n d t h is
w a s w h e r e th e r e p o r t w a s d is c u s s e d w i t h A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o .

It was

g iv e n t o h i m a n d h e s a i d d u e t o t h e l e n g t h o f i t h e w o u l d n e e d s o m e
ti m e t o s t u d y i t a n d o n c e h e h a d s t u d i e d i t h e w o u l d c o m e b a c k w i th
any queries that he had.
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s t h a t ju s t t h e r e p o r t o n ly o r t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e s

w i t h a n n e x u r e s a s w e l l?
M R W H I T E : I t w o u l d h a v e in c l u d e d th e a n n e x u r e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
10

M R W H I T E : I t w o u l d h a v e in c l u d e d th e a n n e x u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h e r e p o r t y o u n e e d to r e a d it w i t h th e a n n e x u r e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

D i d A d v o c a te L e ts h o lo r a i s e a n y q u e r ie s o r

provide you with any comments at that stage?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a i r s o m e s i x m o n th s p a s s e d a n d t h e n I r e c e i v e d a

m e s s a g e f r o m C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g o n 2 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 a n d h e
s a i d A d v o c a te L e ts h o lo h a d s t u d i e d t h e r e p o r t a n d h e w a n te d to m e e t to
d is c u s s
20

his

q u e r ie s .

C h a ir

a

m e e ti n g

was

scheduled

for

1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 . T h a t m e e t in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t i n t h e a ff id a v i t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . S o r r y C h a i r. I - I s h o u l d h a v e a s s is te d
y o u . I a p o lo g is e . T h e w i t n e s s i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e is n o w r e f e r r i n g to h i s
a ffi d a v i t a n d h e is d e a li n g w i th h is a ffi d a v i t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 2 8 C h a ir o n
page 26.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m w h a t p a r a g r a p h …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: He … (intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Or page?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 26.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t a t p a g e o r p a r a g r a p h ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t i s a p a g e a n d h e s ta r t e d - h e h a s d e a l t w i t h
p a r a g r a p h 2 8 . H e is n o w d e a l i n g w i th a m e e t in g o n 1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3
d e a lt w i t h a t p a r a g r a p h 3 0 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

MR WHITE:
the

lead

S o C h a ir t h a t m e e t i n g o n 1 0 D e c e m b e r i t w a s c h a ir e d b y
prosecutor

in

th e

matter

-

A d v o c a te L e t s h o lo

and

A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i - t h e H e a d o f t h e S p e c i a l C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e C o u r t in
D u r b a n w a s a l s o p r e s e n t a s w e ll a s t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s u n i ts r a t h e r th a n c o u r t .
M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I think I saw that …
M R W H I T E : J a . S C C U C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n a d v o c a te c a n n o t b e h e a d o f a c o u r t.
M R W H I T E : I a p o lo g i s e C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

He must be head of the special crime -

s p e c i a lis e d c r i m e u n it in t h e N PA . I t h i n k .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. Ye s .
MR WHITE:

As w e ll a s t h e v a r io u s i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ffic e r s a n d t h e

M a n a g e r a s s is t in g m e i n t h e m a t t e r - M s Fr e n e ll e N o b l e fr o m P W C . A t

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
t h is m e e ti n g A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o r a i s e d a n u m b e r o f q u e r i e s m a i n ly
w h e r e h e r e q u e s t e d s o m e c la r i fi c a t io n i n th e r e p o r t .

We made good

p r o g r e s s , b u t w e o n l y g o t t o p a g e 11 6 a n d I c a n c o n fir m t h a t, b e c a u s e I
k e p t n o te s o f - o f w h a t w a s d is c u s s e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And …
MR WHITE:

Th e r e w a s a fo ll o w u p m e e t in g t h e n s c h e d u le d a f te r t h e

C h r is t m a s b r e a k f o r … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

B e fo r e y o u g o .

Yo u le a v e t h a t m e e ti n g a r e

t h e r e a n y q u e r ie s th a t h e r a is e d t h a t a r e i m p o r t a n t to s h a r e w i t h m e
10

t h a t w e r e d i s c u s s e d a t th a t m e e t i n g ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir. I t w a s m o r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Nothing of importance?
M R W H I T E : N o th in g t h a t w a s n o t i n c lu d i n g i n t h e f i n a l r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
M R W H I T E : S o i t w a s m o r e o f a c la r i fi c a t i o n n a t u r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : A d d s o m e th i n g e x tr a h e r e o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R W H I T E : W h a t d o y o u m e a n b y t h is ?

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B e f o r e y o u g o o n . Yo u m e n t io n e d in - in y o u r
a ffi d a v i t t h a t A d v o c a te Vi m b a n i w a s a ls o a t th a t m e e t i n g ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w a s h is i n v o l v e m e n t?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t is - i t is a l a d y. S h e w a s ju s t a l s o th e r e . I m e a n

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…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I p r e s u m e i n s u p p o r t o f A d v o c a te L e t s h o lo .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, t h e r e w a s t h e n a f o l lo w u p m e e t in g a f t e r t h e

C h r is t m a s b r e a k o n 1 5 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 .

A g a i n A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o a n d

A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i w e r e p r e s e n t a n d w e w e n t t h r o u g h t h e b a l a n c e o f th e
r e p o r t a n d t h e r e w a s a g a in a n u m b e r o f m i n o r a d d i ti o n a l a s p e c t s th a t
t h e y w a n t e d m e t o c o n s id e r.
C h a ir th a t - I t h e n a m e n d e d th e r e p o r t .

10

D a t e d i t.

Add -

a d d e d a d d i t io n a l i n fo r m a t i o n . I t w a s n o t a d d it i o n a l d o c u m e n ts . I t w a s
ju s t m o r e o f - o f a c l a r i f ic a ti o n n a t u r e a n d t h e r e w a s a fu r t h e r m e e t in g
s e t fo r 1 4 M a r c h .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o u p to th e e n d o f t h i s s e c o n d m e e ti n g t h e r e w a s

n o t h i n g t h a t a p p e a r e d t o g iv e h i m a n y fu n d a m e n t a l d i ffi c u l ty w i t h t h e
report?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s c la r i fi c a t o r y q u e s t i o n s a n d s o o n …
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d m a y b e s o m e m in o r s u g g e s ti o n s a b o u t s o m e

is s u e s ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I a t t e n d e d t o t h o s e q u e r i e s a n d t h e r e w a s a f u r t h e r
m e e ti n g s e t f o r 1 4 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 .

A g a i n t h is m e e t i n g w a s c h a ir e d b y

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o . A p e r s o n w h o w a s n e w t o th is m e e t in g t h a t h a d n o t
b e e n a t th e p r e v i o u s m e e t in g s w a s C o l o n e l J o n e s . C h a ir a n d - a n d t h e
m a in p u r p o s e o f t h is m e e ti n g w a s - m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g - w a s d is c u s s t h e
fi n a l r e p o r t t h a t h a d n o w b e e n p r e p a r e d a n d to s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s w h a t th e w a y f o r w a r d w a s a n d t o d is c u s s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o th e - t h e p h a s e f o r c la r i fi c a t o r y q u e s t i o n s h a d
p a s s e d . A l l t h e i s s u e s t h a t h e h a d r a is e d h a d b e e n a d d r e s s e d i n t e r m s
o f c l a r if ic a ti o n ?
MR WHITE: Correct.
10

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you understood?
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h is w a s t o

r e p o r t b a c k t o s a y a ll t h e q u e r i e s h a v e b e e n c l e a r e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
MR WHITE: And …
CHAIRPERSON: What is the way forward?
M R W H I T E : W h a t is t h e w a y f o r w a r d ? E ff e c ti v e ly f o r m e t o is s u e t h e
fi n a l r e p o r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:
20

A n d t h e n fo r t h e - th e p r o c e s s in t h e C r i m i n a l J u s t ic e

S y s t e m to p r o c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, t h e r e w a s s o m e in i ti a l d is c u s s i o n s d u r i n g th a t

m e e ti n g a n d d is c u s s e d s o m e o f th e q u e r i e s a n d i t i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e y
had all being cleared.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h e r e w a s t h a t m e e ti n g h e l d ?

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M R W H I T E : I t w a s a t P W C ’s o ffi c e s i n D u r b a n C h a ir. C h a ir t h e r e w a s a n d I t h e n c o n ti n u e o n p a g e 2 8 - a n d t h e n A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o a s k e d t h e
P W C r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s t o p le a s e e x c u s e th e m s e lv e s fr o m t h e m e e ti n g a s
t h e r e w a s s o m e th i n g c o n f id e n ti a l h e n e e d e d to d is c u s s w i t h t h e D P C I
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d if y o u c a n j u s t s t o p th e r e , b e c a u s e I j u s t
w a n t t o c l a r i fy t h is .

Yo u s a y th a t a ls o p r e s e n t a t th e m e e t i n g w a s

M s Fr e n e l l e N o b l e . W h o w a s s h e ? W h e r e w a s s h e fr o m ?
MR WHITE:
10

C h a ir,

she

is

a

Senior

Manager

fr o m

P r ic e w a t e r h o u s e C o o p e r s w h o w a s e ff e c t iv e ly m y m a i n a s s is t a n t o n t h is
in v e s t i g a t io n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d s h e w a s a l s o e x c u s e d fr o m t h e m e e t in g ?
MR WHITE: Correct Chair …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : R ig h t .
M R W H I T E : A n d s h e h a d b e e n a t t h e p r e v i o u s m e e t in g s a s w e l l.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Yo u c a n c o n ti n u e .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, a s h o r t w h i l e a ft e r t h a t m e e ti n g - a n d C h a ir in m y

a ffi d a v i t I s a y C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g .

I n h i n d s ig h t I th in k i t m a y

h a v e b e e n C o l o n e l S Y G o v e n d e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t .
MR WHITE: At paragraph 33.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I s a y i n m y a ffi d a v i t: a s h o r t w h il e a f t e r th e y h a d fi n i s h e d
t h is m e e ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
M R W H I T E : C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, i n h in d s i g h t I t h in k i t w a s C o lo n e l G o v e n d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h y d o y o u s a y t h a t in h i n d s ig h t? W h a t h a s
made you …
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S a y th is ?
M R W H I T E : I h e a r d C o lo n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g t e s ti fy i n g …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d p a r t o f h is e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t h e w a s s ic k a t t h e t i m e
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : O r h is w i f e w a s s ic k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d h e w a s n o t a t t h e m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : S o w h a t w a s s a i d is t h e s a m e th i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. (Intervenes).

20

M R W H I T E : H e n o r m a ll y s p o k e o n b e h a lf o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n t e a m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Yo u a r e j u s t n o t s u r e w h e t h e r i t w a s h i m o r i t

was somebody else?
M R W H I T E : O r i t - i t w a s e it h e r h i m o r - o r C o l o n e l S Y G o v e n d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE: They were …

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h e tw o l e a d p r o s e c u t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Not prosecutors.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In v e s t i g a t o r s .
M R W H I T E : S o r r y. S o r r y C h a ir. I n v e s ti g a t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
MR WHITE:

C h a ir,

they

then

-

one

of

them

told

me

that

A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o h a d d e c i d e d t h a t th e e v i d e n c e o n w h i c h m y r e p o r t
10

h a d b e e n b a s e d w a s t a i n t e d . A s a r e s u l t o f a n o p e r a ti o n th a t h a d b e e n
u n d e r t a k e n b y C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e in t h e p o l ic e in t e r m s o f t h e
I n t e r c e p ti o n a n d M o n i to r i n g A c t b e i n g A c t 7 0 o f 2 0 0 2 a n d th a t a s a
r e s u l t A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o h a s d e c i d e d t o - n o t t o p r o s e c u t e a n y o f th e
s u s p e c ts .
S o C h a ir, my u n d e r s t a n d in g - I w a s n o t f a m il i a r w it h t h is A c t ,
b u t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g d u r in g t h i s i n v e s t i g a t io n w a s t h a t t h i s Ac t is
s o m e t h i n g t h a t s e ts i n p l a c e v e r y s tr i n g e n t c o n d i ti o n s o n w h i c h
p e o p l e ’s t e l e p h o n e s c a n b e m o n i t o r e d a n d - a n d r e c o r d e d a n d
in t e r c e p t e d a n d th a t t h e r e i s a - a r ig o r o u s p r o c e s s th a t h a s t o b e

20

s ig n e d o ff b y a J u d g e . C h a ir t h a t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : If y o u c a n j u s t s t o p a t th a t p o i n t. W e r e y o u p r i o r t o th is a n d p r io r to f in a l is in g y o u r r e p o r t - a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s
a n y A c t 7 0 m o n i t o r i n g g o in g o n ?
M R W H I T E : I w a s C h a ir, b e c a u s e it - a n d I w i ll - I r e f e r t o t h e s p e c i f ic
d a t e s l a t e i n m y a ffi d a v i t a n d I r e f e r t o i t i n a l e t te r I w r o t e . Th a t i t w a s

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d is c u s s e d a t a m e e ti n g w i t h A d v o c a t e L e t s h o l o e a r li e r o n in th e
p r o c e s s . T h a t t h e r e w e r e m o n i to r i n g t a k in g p la c e , b u t i t w a s e x p l a i n e d
a n d t h e w a y I u n d e r s to o d i t w a s t h a t t h is m o n i t o r i n g w a s i n i ti a t e d
b e c a u s e th e r e h a d b e e n th r e a ts o n th e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ff ic e r s l iv e s a n d
a s a r e s u l t C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e h a d - h a d b e e n t a s k e d w it h m o n i to r i n g
t h e t e l e p h o n e s o f th e p e o p l e th a t w e r e s u s p e c te d o f m a k i n g t h e t h r e a t s .
C h a ir, a t n o s ta g e d id m y s e l f o r a n y b o d y fr o m P W C h a v e
a c c e s s t o t h o s e r e c o r d in g s . Th e c o n t e n ts o f th o s e r e c o r d i n g s w a s n o t
d is c u s s e d w i t h m e a n d t o my u n d e r s t a n d i n g b a s e d o n w h a t I w a s t o ld
10

t h a t i n a d d i ti o n t o t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t in g o ffi c e s i n c a s e 7 8 1 - w h i c h i s
t h e c a s e t h a t I p r e p a r e d t h is r e p o r t f o r - a l s o d i d n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o t h e
r e c o r d i n g s , b e c a u s e t h e - th e a p p l ic a ti o n d id n o t r e l a t e t o th is c a s e .
T h e a p p li c a t io n fo r t h e m o n i to r i n g w a s f o r C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e
t o tr y a n d id e n ti fy th r e a ts to t h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ffi c e r ’s l iv e s .

So

n o t h i n g t h a t a p p e a r e d i n t h e 4 3 7 0 0 d o c u m e n t s t h a t I r e l ie d o n w e r e
o b t a i n e d a s a r e s u l t o f t h e A c t 7 0 m o n i t o r i n g . S o C h a ir, s o a s a r e s u lt I
a c t u a ll y s tr u g g l e d t o u n d e r s ta n d t h e l o g i c a n d w h y i t w a s s a i d t h a t th e
e v i d e n c e w a s t a i n te d .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d it , th a t m o n i t o r i n g w a s l a w f u l

m o n i t o r in g , if I u n d e r s t o o d fr o m o t h e r w it n e s s e s , b u t y o u m i g h t n o t
know that.
M R W H I T E : C h a ir t h a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g a n d I w a s t o l d th a t th e r e
h a d b e e n a f o r m a l p r o c e s s o b ta i n e d to o b t a i n … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

J a t o h a v e a u t h o r is a ti o n .

M R W H I T E : B u t t h a t w a s ju s t i n p a s s i n g t h a t w a s s a i d b e c a u s e it h a d

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n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h th is c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And just for clarity when you had prepared

y o u r d r a ft r e p o r t w h i c h w a s o b v io u s ly b e f o r e y o u e v e r h a d a m e e t in g
w i t h A d v o c a t e L e ts o lo w e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e A c t 7 0 m o n i t o r i n g ?
M R W H I T E : I w a s C h a ir a n d I r e fe r r e d t o i s s p e c i f ic a l ly i n a m e m o o r
le t t e r I w r o te t o C o lo n e l v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O k a y w e w i ll – l e t’s d e a l w i th t h a t i n c o n t e x t
b e c a u s e y o u t h e n s a y th a t y o u r e f u te – w e ll I d o n ’t w a n t t o p u t th e
10

w o r d s in y o u r m o u th b u t i f w e ’l l d e a l w it h t h a t c h r o n o lo g ic a ll y w h e n i t
c o m e s a n d I w il l c la r i fy t h is a s p e c t a t a l a t e r s t a g e . Yo u h a v e s a i d t h a t
t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g i n t h e t h o u s a n d s o f d o c u m e n ts p r e s e n t e d t o y o u o n
w h ic h y o u r r e p o r t w a s b a s e d . T h e r e w a s n o e v id e n c e t h a t y o u r e li e d o n
t h a t h a d b e e n o b ta i n e d a s a r e s u lt o f t h is m o n i t o r in g , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R W H I T E : I t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g C h a ir, t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t w e r e
p r o v i d e d t o m e , f r o m w h a t I c o u l d s e e w e r e o b ta i n e d , e i th e r s u b p o e n a s
fr o m b a n k s o r a ffi d a v i ts a n d s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n ts fr o m s u p p li e r s t o M r
P a n d a y ’s e n t i ti e s o r d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e c e a s e d fr o m M r P a n d a y ’s
b u s i n e s s p r e m is e s .

20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w I ’d li k e t o r e fe r y o u t o A n n e x u r e T S W 2 8
it ’s E x h i b i t R R 4 fi le D a t p a g e 1 9 9 2 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s E x h ib i t R R 4 D , a n d w h a t p a g e ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 1992.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h is is a m e m o r a n d u m d a te d t h e 2 5 t h o f M a r c h

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
2 0 1 4 t o A d v o c a t e Ve m b a n i b y A d v o c a t e L e ts o l o a n d i t s e ts o u t t h e
r e a s o n s w h y th e d e c is i o n h a d b e e n m a d e n o t t o p r o s e c u t e th e c a s e , d id
you know about this memorandum?
M R W H I T E : I d id C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d h o w d id y o u g e t t o k n o w a b o u t i t?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir C o l o n e l v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g g a v e m e a c o p y o f i t o n
t h e 9 t h o f A p r il 2 0 1 4 a n d a s k e d m e f o r c o m m e n t o r i n p u t r e la t in g t o i t
a n d I w r o te a le t t e r b a c k t o h i m , m a k i n g s o m e p r e l i mi n a r y c o m m e n ts o n
the document.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w t h e l e t t e r t h a t y o u w r o t e b a c k , C h a ir is

f o u n d i n f il e R R 4 B f o r b o y o r b a d a n d i t ’s a t p a g e 5 1 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , th a t ’s fi n e i f t h e w it n e s s h a s g o t i t a n d y o u ’ v e

g o t it y o u c a n c o n ti n u e , I r e m e m b e r th e l e t t e r q u i t e w e ll .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you, now having regard to the reasons

p r o v i d e d i n th e m e m o r a n d u m a n d y o u r r e s p o n s e c o u ld y o u t e l l t h e
C h a ir w h a t d id y o u c o n v e y i n y o u r l e tt e r a n d w h a t – a n d i f t h e r e ’s
a n y th in g y o u w a n t to a d d w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e m e m o r a n d u m f e e l fr e e t o
do so.
M R W H I T E : C h a ir m a y b e ju s t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e , l e t m e p u t i t th i s w a y a t t h is s ta g e w e k n o w

w h a t A d v o c a te L e t s o l o s a i d w i th r e g a r d f o r h i s r e a s o n s fo r d e c li n i n g t o
p r o s e c u t e , y o u w e r e g iv e n a c o p y o f t h a t l e tt e r, y o u r e s p o n d e d q u i t e in
d e t a i l , t h is i s t h e c h a n c e fo r y o u t o t e l l m e w h a t y o u r v i e w s w e r e a b o u t
t h a t d e c is i o n a n d t h e r e a s o n s t h a t w e r e g i v e n t o j u s t i fy th a t d e c is io n .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir b a s e d o n m y k n o w l e d g e a n d m y i n v o l v e m e n t o v e r

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
t h e 1 8 m o n t h s in th e c a s e t h e r e a s o n s g i v e n d i d n ’ t m a k e a n y s e n s e t o
m e , I ’ d n e v e r h a d a c c e s s t o a n y th i n g f r o m th e A c t 7 0 m o n i to r i n g ,
A d v o c a t e L e t s o l o h a d b e e n to ld a t o n e o f t h e e a r ly m e e t in g s th a t t h e r e
w a s s u c h m o n i to r i n g t a k in g p l a c e a n d i t d i d n ’ t r e l a t e t o c a s e 7 8 1 w h ic h
is

the

reference

on

th e

p o lic e

system

for

th is

in v e s t i g a t io n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W a s t h a t a m a t t e r th a t w a s d e n i e d b y

A d v o c a t e L e ts o l o ?
M R W H I T E : W e l l h e s a i d , C h a ir, t h a t t h e fir s t h e k n e w o f i t w a s w h e n
10

h e r e c e iv e d r e p r e s e n ta t io n s fr o m M r P a n d a y in , I t h i n k , F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 .
C h a ir t h a t j u s t w a s n ’ t tr u e b e c a u s e I ’ d b e e n a t a m e e t i n g w h e r e it w a s
d is c u s s e d w a y e a r li e r i n t h e in v e s t i g a t iv e p r o c e s s . C h a ir th e – s o t h a t
w a s t h e o n e t h in g w h ic h j u s t – w a s fa c tu a ll y n o t tr u e … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n r e p e a t y o u r p o i n ts y o u m a d e i n y o u r l e t te r i f
you – feel free do to that and just the important ones.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir m a y b e j u s t b e f o r e I d o t h a t if I c o u l d j u s t

h i g h l ig h t a c o u p le o f e x tr a c ts fr o m th e m e m o w r i t te n b y A d v o c a t e
L e t s o lo o n t h e 2 5 t h o f M a r c h , j u s t in t h e c o n te x t o f w h a t I ’v e te s t i fi e d i n
t h e la s t d a y s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A t t h e s e c o n d p a g e o f h is m e m o a t p a g e 1 9 9 3 i n t h e fir s t
p a r a g r a p h a t t h e t o p o f t h a t p a g e h e s t a te s ,
“ I i n f o r m e d t h e m t h a t b a s e d o n t h e i n fo r m a t io n c o n t a in e d i n
t h e d o c k e t g i v e n to m e t h a t t h e r e ’s j u s t n o e v id e n c e a g a i n s t t h e
P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r. C o lo n e l v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g r e s p o n d e d t h e r e t o

Page 45 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
b y s a y i n g , th a t i f I’ m n o t g o i n g to c h a r g e t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r I
m a y a s w e l l j u s t c l o s e th e d o c k e t ” ,
C h a ir I d o r e c a ll t h a t d i s c u s s io n t a k i n g p l a c e , C o l o n e l v a n
L o g g e r e n b e r g , i n t h e d is c u s s i o n s w it h Ad v o c a t e L e ts o l o i n t h o s e
p r e v i o u s m e e t in g s w h e n w e w e r e d is c u s s in g t h e d r a f t r e p o r t h e w a s
a s k e d w h a t d o y o u t h i n k o f t h e e v id e n c e , h o w s tr o n g is th e e v i d e n c e ,
h e c o n f ir m e d h e t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s a s tr o n g c a s e a n d t h a t t h e r e w a s
s tr o n g e v i d e n c e a g a in s t th e a c c u s e d . H e w a s i n it i a l ly u n s u r e a b o u t –
a g a in s t R S P i ll a y a n d t h e n a t a fo ll o w i n g m e e ti n g h e a g r e e d t h e r e w a s
10

evidence

but

C o m m i s s i o n e r.

he,

at

no

stage,

was

m e n ti o n i n g

the

Pr o v i n c i a l

C o l o n e l v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g t h e n s a i d , w h a t a b o u t th e

P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d h e w a s o f t h e v i e w th a t th e r e w a s n o
e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t th e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d d id h e s a y w h y ?

M R W H I T E : H e j u s t s a i d h e d i d n ’ t t h i n k t h e r e w a s , h e b e li e v e d t h a t t h e
d o c k e t a n d th e fo r e n s ic r e p o r t a n d t h e s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n ts d i d n ’ t
in d i c a t e – i t in c l u d e d th e a ffi d a v i t s o f B r i g a d ie r K e m p a n d M a jo r
General Booysen, he was of the view that there was no evidence.
C o l o n e l v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I’m

sorry

the

case

a g a in s t

the

Pr o v in c i a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r d i d i t r e l a t e t o t h e i n s t r u c t io n s th a t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n
s h o u l d b e s t o p p e d o n ly o r d i d i t a ls o r e la t e to a n y t h i n g e ls e s h e m a y o r
m a y n o t h a v e d o n e w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e b e n e fi t o r t h e p a y m e n t b y M r
P a n d a y fo r h e r h u s b a n d ’s b ir th d a y p a r ty o r w a s t h e p o s i ti o n – w a s i t
t h e c a s e t h a t b e c a u s e s h e h a d – b e c a u s e M r P a n d a y w a s p a y i n g fo r th e

Page 46 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
b ir t h d a y p a r t y o f h e r h u s b a n d t h is is w h a t m o ti v a t e d h e r t o g i v e t h e
in s t r u c t i o n s ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir th a t w a s th e c o n c l u s i o n t h e i n v e s ti g a t i n g t e a m

c a m e t o , w a s t h a t t h e i n t e r a c t io n w it h B r i g a d i e r K e m p a n d M a j o r
G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s – s ta r t e d a f e w w e e k s p r i o r t o t h e b i r t h d a y p a r ty
b e i n g p a id f o r.

S o t h e i n f e r e n c e th a t t h e i n v e s ti g a t i n g te a m w a s

d r a w i n g o r w a s w a n ti n g th e p r o s e c u to r t o d r a w w a s t h a t , t h a t p a y m e n t
d ir e c t ly r e l a t e d t o a n i n d u c e m e n t f o r th e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r to a c t
in t h e in t e r e s t o f M r P a n d a y a n d tr y a n d s t o p t h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t.
M R W H I T E : S o t h a t ’s w h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a t i n g t e a m w a s – a n d t h e t i m in g
it ’s a l l w i th i n a m o n t h C h a ir, t h e in i ti a l in s tr u c t io n s t o s to p i s f o l lo w e d
b y t h a t a n d t h e r e ’s a f u r t h e r i n s tr u c t i o n t o s t o p a n d th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n
c o n ti n u e d b u t th e r e w e r e d ir e c t i n s tr u c t io n s t o s to p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, a lr ig h t c o n t in u e .
MR WHITE:

C h a i r t h e r e ’s t h e n , i n p a r a g r a p h 3 o n p a g e 1 9 9 3 o f t h a t

memo it says,
“On 14 February 2014 I was provided with a copy of the
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s m a d e o n b e h a lf o f D r P a n d a y ” ,
C h a ir t h o s e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s w e r e n ’ t m a d e a v a il a b l e t o m y s e l f

20

s o I c o u ld n ’ t c o m m e n t o n t h e m s o t h e m e e ti n g th a t t o o k p l a c e n o w
w h e r e a d e c i s i o n w a s m a d e n o t t o p r o s e c u t e a n y o f t h e s u s p e c ts , th a t ’s
n o t th e n o r m a l p r o c e s s C h a ir i n a ll th e y e a r s I ’v e b e e n i n v o l v e d i n
t h e s e k i n d o f in v e s ti g a t i o n s , a s s is ti n g t h e p o l ic e . T h e n o r m a l p r o c e s s
is ,

the

prosecutor

w o u ld

share

those

Page 47 of 158

r e p r e s e n ta t io n s

with

the

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r a s w e l l a s t h e f o r e n s i c a u d it o r s t h a t a r e a p p o in t e d
so

that

we

can

provide

input

into

s e e in g

one,

w h e th e r

the

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s a r e a c t u a ll y b a s e d o n r e a l fa c ts c o m p a r e d t o w h a t w e
h a v e b u t a ls o s e c o n d l y to t h e n s a y n o r m a lly t h e r e w o u ld b e f u r th e r
w o r k t o b e d o n e b y t h e in v e s t i g a t io n t e a m b e c a u s e b a s e d o n a
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t h e p r o s e c u t o r m a y s a y g o a n d c h e c k A a n d B a n d i f y o u
c a n p r o v e t h o s e p o i n t s th e n th e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s a r e n ’ t v a li d .

So that

w o l d b e t h e n o r m a l p r o c e s s . I n th is in s ta n c e i t w a s n ’ t m a d e a v a il a b l e
t o m y s e l f f o r c o m m e n t a n d t o m y k n o w l e d g e i t w a s n ’t m a d e a v a il a b l e t o
10

t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o ff ic e r s e i th e r f o r t h e ir i n p u t . S o t h a t ’s j u s t a s e c o n d
p o i n t w h ic h … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll y o u s a i d y o u h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n m a n y

in v e s t i g a t io n s , f o r e n s i c in v e s ti g a t io n s o v e r t h e p a s t 2 0 y e a r s , w o u l d
many

of those

have

entailed

you

working

with

the

p o l ic e

and

p r o s e c u t o r s o r n o t r e a l ly o r o n ly s o m e ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir m o s t o f t h e m w h ic h r e l a te t o c r i m i n a l in v e s t i g a t io n s
h a d th a t i n v o lv e m e n t s o C h a ir i n m a n y in s t a n c e s a s th e m a t te r p r o c e e d
e v e n t h o u g h t h e f o r e n s i c r e p o r t i s c o m p le t e th e r e ’s th e n – t h e
p r o s e c u t o r s a s k fo r a s s is t a n c e w i t h t h e s u m m a r y o f t h e s u b s ta n ti a l
20

f a c ts f o r th e i n d i c t m e n t o r t h e c h a r g e s h e e t b e c a u s e t h e y j u s t – t h e
d e t a i l , n o t th e a c t u a l c h a r g e s b u t th e fa c ts a n d t h e n i n r e s p o n s e to
r e q u e s ts f o r f u r t h e r p a r t ic u l a r s . I n s o m e o f t h o s e c a s e s th e s e r e q u e s t s
a r e v e r y s u b s ta n ti a l a n d in s o m e i n s t a n c e s b e c a u s e o f o u r i n v o l v e m e n t
w i t h th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n i t’s e a s ie r t o id e n t if y t h e r e l e v a n t e x tr a c ts t h a t
t h e p r o s e c u t o r n e e d s t o r e fe r t o in th o s e r e s p o n s e s , s o it ’s v e r y m u c h –

Page 48 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
n o r m a l ly a te a m e ff o r t . T h e i n v e s ti g a t i n g o ffic e r s f r o m t h e p o li c e , t h e
f o r e n s ic a c c o u n ta n ts a s w e l l a s th e p r o s e c u to r s w o r k i n g to g e t h e r t o g e t
to the same – the end result.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y t h a n k y o u , I t h i n k l e t’s ta k e t h e te a a d j o u r n m e n t
a n d th e n w e c a n c o n t in u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ’l l ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e ’l l r e s u m e a t

half past eleven, we adjourn.
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr W h i t e b e fo r e t h e te a

a d j o u r n m e n t y o u w e r e d e a li n g w it h t h e m e m o r a n d u m d a t e d th e 2 5
M a r c h 2 0 1 4 fr o m A d v o c a t e L e t s h o lo t o A d v o c a t e Vi m b a n i i t is a t – w e
w e r e d e a l in g a t t h is s t a g e th e m e m o r a n d u m s ta r t s a t p a g e 1 9 9 2 a n d
y o u w e r e d e a l in g w i t h p a g e 1 9 9 3 .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e w h a t w e s h o u l d d o b e c a u s e i t is a d e t a i le d

le t t e r y o u r r e s p o n s e .

W h e n y o u g e t to i t m a y b e y o u c a n c o n f ir m

w h e t h e r t h e c o n te n ts o f y o u r l e t t e r c o m m e n ti n g o n A d v o c a te L e t s h o lo ’s
20

d e c is i o n a n d h is r e a s o n s w h e t h e r y o u s t a n d b y w h a t is s ta t e d th e r e a n d
t h e n y o u c a n h ig h li g h t t h o s e p o i n ts in y o u r r e s p o n s e t h a t y o u r e g a r d a s
q u i te i m p o r t a n t t o m e n t io n b u t y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h e w h o l e c o n t e n t s a r e
s t il l w h a t y o u th in k a b o u t t h a t m e m o r a n d u m . O k a y.
M R W H I T E : [ N o t s p e a k i n g i n to t h e m i c r o p h o n e ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
MR

WHITE:

C h a ir

maybe

just

two

m e m o r a n d u m o f A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o .

o th e r

paragraphs

in

that

T h e fir s t o n e a t p a g e 1 9 9 3

p a r a g r a p h 3 .2 . I t r e a d s :
“ I t w a s – i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o n o t e t h a t a t n o s ta g e
w h a ts o e v e r w a s I in f o r m e d b y th e i n v e s t ig a ti n g
o ffic e r s in th is c a s e t h a t th e r e a r e t a p e r e c o r d i n g s
a v a i la b le in t h is m a t t e r. ”
S o C h a ir – w e ll fir s tly i t is c o r r e c t th e r e w e r e n o t a p e r e c o r d i n g s i n t h is
10

m a t t e r b e c a u s e t h e y r e l a t e d t o a C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e m a t t e r t h a t w a s n o t
r e l a t e d t o c a s e 7 8 1 i t r e l a t e d to t h e t h r e a ts o n th e in v e s ti g a t in g
o ffic e r s ’ l iv e .

B u t in t h a t r e g a r d C h a ir I w a s p r e s e n t a t a m e e ti n g o n

the 21 May 2013 where that was explained to Advocate Letsholo.

So

h e w a s t o l d , t h e r e a r e – is m o n i to r i n g a n d th a t i s w h a t i t r e l a te s t o . I t
d o e s n o t r e l a t e to t h i s c a s e . H e g o e s o n f u r th e r in t h is p a r a g r a p h a n d
says:
“ T h e fir s t t i m e I b e c a m e a w a r e o f t h is s p e c i f ic is s u e
was as a result of the representations made on
b e h a l f o f To s h a n P a n d a y. ”
20

S o C h a ir t h a t is ju s t n o t tr u e . A n d th e n :
“ F u r t h e r m o r e t h e r e i s n o t h in g i n t h e d o c k e t to
s u g g e s t o r in d i c a t e th a t th e r e w a s a n a p p lic a ti o n
m a d e f o r t h e A u t h o r i ty t o p e r m i t th e p o li c e to m o n i to r
c e r t a i n t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n s .

The nature of the

in v e s t i g a t io n s i n t h is m a tt e r i s s t r a ig h t f o r w a r d a n d

Page 50 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
t h e r e w a s n o n e e d f o r a n a p p l ic a t i o n o f t h i s n a t u r e t o
be made.”
C h a ir it i s 1 0 0 % c o r r e c t .

Yo u w o u ld n o t e x p e c t i t t o b e in t h is d o c k e t ,

it d id n o t r e l a t e to t h i s d o c k e t , t h e m a t te r w a s s t r a i g h t f o r w a r d , it w a s
b a s e d o n d o c u m e n t s a n d p a y m e n ts .

So there was no need for a

m o n i t o r in g o f t h e te le p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n s o f Mr P a n d a y, M r M a d h o e ,
C o l o n e l M a d h o e o r a n y b o d y e ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o e s t h e p a r t t h a t y o u j u s t r e a d o f h is m e m o r a n d u m
suggest that
10

1 . H e t h o u g h t t h e m o n i to r i n g r e la t e d t o th e 7 8 1 in v e s ti g a t io n .
2 . T h a t h e t h o u g h t t h e m o n it o r i n g o f t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n s w a s
d o n e w i th o u t n e c e s s a r y l e g a l a u th o r is a ti o n .
W h e n I r e a d t h a t p a r t I g a i n e d t h a t i m p r e s s io n b u t th a t i m p r e s s i o n m a y
be wrong.

I am just checking with you.

When he says there was no

a p p lic a ti o n ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o a p p lic a ti o n i n 7 8 1 ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

B u t a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e p o s i ti o n t h e r e w a s a n

a p p lic a ti o n i n r e g a r d t o t h e d e a t h t h r e a ts o f th e i n v e s t ig a to r s .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I g o t th e i m p r e s s io n t h a t h e w a s s a y in g o r

s u g g e s t in g t h a t t h e m o n i t o r in g th a t h a d h a p p e n e d h a d b e e n – h a d n o t
b e e n le g a l . I s th a t t h e s a m e i m p r e s s io n y o u g o t o r n o t n e c e s s a r i ly o r
a m I m is s in g s o m e t h i n g ?

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M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t is n o t th a t i m p r e s s i o n I g o t b e c a u s e I k n e w f o r a
fact that he had been told. So I did not read it that way because…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E: I k n e w h e h a d b e e n to ld t h e r e w a s m o n i t o r i n g a n d h e h a d
b e e n t o ld w h a t i t w a s a b o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S o I d i d n o t r e a d i t i n t h e w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h a t t h e C h a i r s u g g e s te d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e I k n e w th e b a c k g r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t w h y w o u l d h e – w h y w o u l d t h e – w h y w o u l d
it b e r e l e v a n t t o s a y t h e r e w a s n o a p p li c a ti o n in t h is c a s e ?

Again

m a y b e I a s k i n g y o u s o m e t h in g y o u w o u l d n o t b e a b le to d e a l w i t h
b e c a u s e y o u – y o u d o n o t d e a l w i th t h o s e t h i n g s . I w a s ju s t w o n d e r i n g
w h y – w h y i t w a s i m p o r ta n t fo r h i m to s a y th e r e w a s n o a p p l ic a t i o n
u n l e s s h e to o k it – h e w a s o f t h e v i e w th a t t h e m o n i to r i n g o f t h e
c o n v e r s a ti o n s w a s il le g a l .
MR WHITE:
20

C h a ir t h e – t h e i n f e r e n c e t h a t c a n b e d r a w n is th a t a n

e x c u s e is b e in g l o o k e d fo r C h a ir. Th e e v i d e n c e i t h a s b e e n c o n f ir m e d ,
it is g o o d e v i d e n c e . T h e r e is n o w f u r th e r q u e s t io n s b e i n g a s k e d a b o u t
t h e Pr o v is io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. Th e Pr o s e c u t o r w a s u n c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h
– w h e th e r th e r e w a s s u ff ic ie n t e v i d e n c e .

T h e in v e s ti g a t in g o ffic e r s

w e r e f a ir l y i n s is t e n t t h e r e w a s s u ffi c i e n t e v id e n c e .

A n d s u d d e n ly

w i t h o u t a d d r e s s i n g t h e f a c t o r t h e q u e r y fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t in g o ffic e r o f

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– is t h e r e s u ffi c i e n t e v id e n c e to p r o s e c u t e th e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r
s u d d e n l y th e c a s e is – i s – th e r e i s a d e c li n e to p r o s e c u t e th e e n t ir e
c a s e w i t h o u t d e a l in g w i t h t h e m e r i ts o f t h e c a s e b u t f o r a n e x te r n a l
r e a s o n . W h ic h t h e n d o e s n o t d e a l w i t h a c a s e t h a t t h e p r o s e c u t o r h a s
a lr e a d y s a i d t h e r e is a g o o d c a s e . A n d C h a ir a n d i n t h a t r e g a r d i n th e
la s t p a g e o f t h a t – th a t m e m o r a n d u m a t p a r a g r a p h 7 .- a n d t h e la s t p a g e
is p a g e 1 9 9 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A t 7 .4 1 h e t h e n s t a te s :
10

“ I a m n o t p r e p a r e d a s a r e p r e s e n ta t iv e o f t h e s t a t e t o
g o t o c o u r t w it h d i r t y h a n d s .
seen

to

be

c o n d o n in g

I do not want to be

improper

in v e s t ig a ti v e

t e c h n iq u e s b y th e p o li c e . ”
In paragraph 8.
“ I h a v e t h e r e f o r e ta k e n a d e c is i o n t o d e c l in e t o
p r o s e c u t e t h is m a t t e r. ”
B u t C h a ir n o w h e r e d o e s h e s a y th e r e i s n o c a s e b u t h e n o w c o m e s w i t h
a r e a s o n w h ic h o n t h e f a c ts is a c t u a lly in c o r r e c t C h a ir b e c a u s e t h e
f a c ts d o n o t – a s I k n o w t h e m – d o n o t s u p p o r t t h e A c t 7 0 a n d th e u s e
20

o f i t i n t h is c a s e . B e c a u s e th a t w a s C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

M s W e n t z e l is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g c o r r e c t t h a t th e

m o n i t o r in g o f th e c o n v e r s a ti o n s h a d b e e n d o n e – h a d b e e n a u t h o r is e d
by a Judge?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n la w f u l m o n i t o r in g ?

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o g o i n g – j u s t th e p a r a g r a p h to w h ic h y o u h a v e j u s t
r e fe r r e d Mr W h i t e .

I t is d i ffi c u l t t o t h i n k th a t h e w o u l d r e g a r d – h e

w o u ld h a v e r e g a r d e d t h a t m o n i t o r i n g a s a n i m p r o p e r i n v e s t i g a t iv e
t e c h n iq u e a s h e r e f e r s i n p a r a g r a p h 7 . 4 1 a t p a g e 1 9 9 7 i f h e t h o u g h t – if
h e – i f h e t h o u g h t o r k n e w th a t th e m o n i t o r i n g o f t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n s –
t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n w a s la w f u l .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a i r th e – t h e p o in t h e t r i e s t o m a k e i n h i s

m e m o r a n d u m is th a t s o m e b o d y fr o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e i s a ll e g e d t o
10

h a v e t o ld M r P a n d a y t h a t t h e y k n e w w h a t h is d e f e n c e w a s i n t h i s m a t t e r
b a s e d o n t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n s t h e y h a d o v e r h e a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : I th i n k th a t is t h e p o i n t h e i s t r y i n g t o m a k e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : To s a y th a t t h a t is t h e i m p r o p e r i n v e s t ig a ti v e t e c h n i q u e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E: B u t C h a ir th e – th a t w a s n o t s h a r e d w i t h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g
team.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

M R W H I T E: To my – I w a s n e v e r – h a d a n y k n o w l e d g e o f th a t a n d t o
m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h e i n v e s ti g a t i n g o ffi c e r s in t h e c a s e 7 8 1 a ls o d id n o t
h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e o f th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
M R W H I T E: C h a i r I j u s t – w h e n th a t m e m o r a n d u m w a s g iv e n to m e o n
t h e 9 A p r il I i m m e d ia t e l y t h e s a m e d a y w r o t e a r e s p o n s e t o C o lo n e l Va n

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L o g g e r e n b e r g w h ic h i s a t – i n b u n d l e R R 4 b a t p a g e 5 1 6 .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e r e a r e j u s t a f e w a s p e c ts I w o u l d l ik e t o

d e a l w i t h – w i t h t h i s m e m o r a n d u m b e f o r e w e g o t th e r e i f y o u d o n o t
mind? If we can just go back to page 1994. And I want to refer you to
p a r a g r a p h 3 .6 a g a in w h e r e it is s t a te d :
“ O n c e a g a i n i t n e e d s t o b e e m p h a s is e d t h a t t a k in g
in t o

account

th e

nature

and

extent

of

the

in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t w e r e b e i n g c a r r i e d o u t i n th is
m a t t e r t h e r e w a s n o n e e d w h a ts o e v e r f o r s u c h
10

a p p lic a ti o n s to b e m a d e . ”
Yo u s e e t h a t?
M R W H I T E : I d o C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w a s fa r a s y o u a r e a w a r e w a s th e r e a n y

ill e g a l m o n i to r i n g i n t h i s m a t te r b e i n g t a k e – u n d e r t a k e n b y t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s in t h is m a t t e r ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d i f o n e th e n h a s r e g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h 7 o n
page 1996 it says:
“ I n l i g h t o f w h a t is p o s tu la t e d a b o v e a n d m o r e in
20

p a r t ic u l a r t a k i n g i n to c o n s i d e r a t i o n th a t p u b li c p o li c y
is c o n c e r n e d n o t o n ly i n e n s u r in g t h a t t h e g u i l ty a r e
h e l d a c c o u n t a b l e b u t a ls o t h a t t h e in v e s t i g a t in g a n d
prosecural
propriety
s u s p e c ts .

a g e n c ie s
in

s e c u r in g

conduct
evidence

t h e ms e lv e s
against

with

c r i m in a l

T h a t p u b l ic p o li c y a ls o s e ts i ts e l f fir m l y

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
a g a in s t

a d m i t ti n g

e v id e n c e

o b ta in e d

through

i m p r o p e r m e a n s o r e v i d e n c e o b t a in e d i n d e l ib e r a te o r
fl a g r a n t v io l a t i o n o f t h e c o n s t i tu t i o n . ”
Wa s a n y o f t h e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u r e li e d o n o b ta i n e d b y i m p r o p e r m e a n s
o r n d e l ib e r a te o r fl a g r a n t v io l a t i o n o f t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n ?
M R W H I T E:

N o t to m y k n o w l e d g e C h a ir.

A n d C h a ir w h e r e – l ik e b y

w a y o f e x a m p le w e r e l i e d o n th e d o c u m e n ts s e iz e d fr o m M r P a n d a y ’s
b u s i n e s s p r e m is e s .

T h e r e w e r e c o u r t c h a l le n g e s in t h o s e p r o c e s s e s

a n d th e i n v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r s w e r e f o u n d t o h a v e c o m p l i e d w i t h th e l a w.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n p a r a g r a p h 7 .2 i t s a y s :
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll b e f o r e th a t j u s t I t h i n k t h e p a r a g r a p h t o w h ic h

y o u h a v e j u s t r e fe r r e d M s W e n t z e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So he says there was no need whatsoever for such

a p p lic a ti o n s t o b e m a d e a n d i n t h e p a r a g r a p h b e f o r e t h a t h e s a y s t h a t
is 3 . 5 , h e h a d – h a d – h e h a d l e a r n t t h a t o r h a d b e e n t o l d th a t v a r i o u s
a p p lic a ti o n s f o r t h e ta p p i n g o f t h e p h o n e s a n d t o m o n it o r c o n v e r s a t io n s
o f c e r ta in i n d iv id u a l s h a d b e e n m a d e . T h e n h e s a y s , h e w a s n o t i n a
p o s i ti o n t o g i v e m o r e d e ta ils r e fe r r i n g to – I a m n o t s u r e w h o h e is
20

r e fe r r i n g t o . B u t h e s a y s , i t w a s c le a r t h a t t h e o t h e r a p p li c a t i o n s w e r e
m a d e – w e r e d o n e in r e s p e c t o f th e i n v e s ti g a t io n s i n t h i s c a s e . T h o s e I
t h i n k a r e a p p li c a t io n s fo r a u t h o r i s a t io n s fo r m o n i to r i n g – t h e m o n i t o r i n g
o f c o n v e r s a t io n s . S o y o u w o u l d e m p h a s is e t h a t a s f a r a s y o u k n o w n o
s u c h a p p lic a ti o n w a s m a d e i n r e g a r d to t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n w h ic h y o u
g o t in v o lv e d n a m e l y c a s e 7 8 1 ?

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M R W H I T E: C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d a t n o s t a g e d i d a n y o f th e i n v e s ti g a t i n g
o ffic e r s in t h e c a s e s a y to m e o h w e h a v e j u s t l e a r n t a b o u t X b e c a u s e
o f s o m e r e c o r d in g . T h a t w a s n e v e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S a i d a t a n y s t a g e d u r i n g th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d C h a ir C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g t e s t i fi e d
t h a t h e w a s t h e h e a d i n v e s ti g a t o r a n d n o a p p li c a t io n s i n c a s e 7 8 1 f o r
m o n i t o r in g w e r e m a d e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w r e f e r r i n g j u s t fi n a ll y o n p a g e 1 9 6 6 a f t e r
w e h a v e s a i d th a t t h e i m p li c a t io n is t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e h a d b e e n s e c u r e d
a n d a c l a n d e s ti n e il le g a l , i m p r o p e r, u n c o n s t it u ti o n a l m a n n e r. I t is th e n
s a i d i n 7 .1 :
“It

is

s u b m i t te d

w i th

respect

th a t

the

issues

s u r r o u n d in g t h e t a p p i n g o f t h e p h o n e s is i n e x tr i c a b l y
li n k e d t o t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h th e e v i d e n c e w a s
o b t a i n e d i n t h i s m a tt e r.

T h a t t h e e v id e n c e a s it

s t a n d s a t th is p o i n t is ir r e d e e m a b ly s t a i n e d . ”
20

Wa s t h e r e a n y e v i d e n c e t h a t h a d b e e n s u b m i tt e d t o th e a d v o c a t e p r io r
t o th is , d e a lt w i th i n y o u r r e p o r t o r i n th e d o c k e t t h a t i n d ic a t e d t h a t
t h e r e w a s a n y e v id e n c e o b ta i n e d th r o u g h t h e m o n it o r in g o f a p h o n e ?
M R W H I T E : T h e r e w a s n o n e C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : H e th e n c o n c l u d e s 7 .2 :
“ To

take

this

case

to

court

Page 57 of 158

under

th e s e

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
c ir c u m s ta n c e s w o u l d m e a n th a t I a s t h e p r o s e c u t o r
w i ll h a v e t o tu r n a b li n d e y e t o t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h
the evidence had been obtained and subject the
ju d i c i a l p r o c e s s i n m o r a l d e fil e m e n t s o m e t h i n g I a m
not prepared to do.”
Wa s t h e – [i n d i s ti n c t – m u m b l in g ] .
M R W H I T E:

C h a ir a g a i n t h e r e w a s – t o m y k n o w l e d g e th e r e w a s

nothing wrong with the manner in which the evidence was obtained and
w h e r e i t h a d b e e n o b t a in e d i n t e r m s o f a s e a r c h w a r r a n t i t h a d b e e n
10

c h a l le n g e d a n d th e fi n d i n g w a s n o t in f a v o u r o f t h e s t a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u – d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r h e p r o v i d e d in h is
– i n t h i s m e m o r a n d u m a n y e v id e n c e s h o w i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s e v id e n c e
o b t a i n e d f o r th e 7 8 1 i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t w a s i m p r o p e r l y o b t a i n e d ?
M R W H I T E : T h e r e is n o t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h i s m e m o r a n d u m a ll h e d o e s is r e fe r t o r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s
m a d e b y M r P a n d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W h ic h t h e p r o s e c u ti n g – w h ic h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g te a m w a s

20

not asked to provide input on.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

And as far as you know the persons that he

s a y s i n h is m e m o r a n d u m g a v e c e r t a i n i n f o r m a ti o n to M r P a n d a y.

Do

y o u k n o w w h e t h e r a n y s t a te m e n ts fr o m t h o s e p e r s o n s w e r e m a d e
a v a i la b le t o t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s i n t h e 7 8 1 i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t o y o u ?
M R W H I T E: T h e y w e r e d e f i n i t e ly n o t m a d e a v a il a b l e t o m e a n d t o m y

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k n o w l e d g e t h e y w e r e n o t m a d e a v a il a b l e to th e i n v e s t ig a t o r s e i t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u . M r W h i t e i f y o u c o u ld t h e n p l e a s e
go to your response.

It is contained in bundle B so Exhibit RR4b at

page 516.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u d o n e w i t h A d v o c a te L e t s h o lo ’s m e m o r a n d u m ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t is s u b j e c t t o y o u w a n t in g to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m y o u r s i d e a r e y o u d o n e ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s fr o m m y s i d e y e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d M r W h i te a r e d o n e w i t h y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h a t

memorandum?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir a p a r t fr o m r e f e r r i n g t o t h e w r i t te n r e s p o n s e I m a d e
at the time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: So as far as commenting on it yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE: Just not…
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u c o n fir m t h a t a ll th e p o in ts y o u m a d e i n th a t
le t t e r y o u s t a n d b y t h e m ?
20

M R W H I T E : I d o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Now if we could just…
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u w a n t m e t o g o t o w h ic h Ex h ib i t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir it is E x h i b i t R R 4 b .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B fo r B e a tr ic e ?

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : B fo r B e a tr ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . P a g e 5 1 6 ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o M r W h i t e th is is th e le t t e r t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d
t o a n d i t is t h e le t t e r y o u ju s t c o n fi r m e d .
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t i s t h e le t t e r I w r o t e t o C o l o n e l
Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g o n t h e 9 A p r il 2 0 1 4 c o m m e n ti n g o n t h e m e m o r a n d u m
that had been prepared by Advocate Letsholo.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f y o u c o u l d j u s t d e a l p le a s e – w e h a v e d e a l t
with your comment in paragraph 4.

I f y o u c o u l d p l e a s e d e a l w i th

paragraphs 5 and 6 on pages 517 and what you state there?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 5 s ta t e s :
“ To w a r d s th e e n d o f t h e m e e t in g o n 1 5 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 4 ”
S o C h a ir t h a t w a s t h e s e c o n d m e e t in g to d i s c u s s th e d r a f t r e p o r t .
“ A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o w a s a s k e d b y o n e o f t h e S A P S m e m b e r s p r e s e n t I
c a n n o t r e c a l l w h ic h o n e , w h a t h e t h o u g h t o f t h e c a s e a n d o u r e v i d e n c e .
A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o s ta t e d t h a t it w a s h is v ie w th a t t h e r e is a v e r y g o o d
case
20

against

N a r a in p e r s h a d ,

Madhoe

and

P a n d a y.

After

some

d is c u s s io n a n d f u r th e r c l a r i t y r e g a r d i n g R S P i ll a y h e a g r e e d t h a t t h e r e
w a s a ls o a c a s e f o r Mr P il l a y to a n s w e r. ”
In paragraph 6:
“ U p t o th is s t a g e A d v o c a te L e t s h o lo h a d m a d e n o
m e n ti o n o f t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r N g o b e n i .
C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g a s k e d w h a t a b o u t t h e P C

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t o w h i c h A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o r e p l ie d t h a t h e h a d s o m e
r e s e r v a ti o n s .

T h e r e w a s th e n f u r t h e r d is c u s s io n

d u r i n g w h i c h C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g c o m p a r e d
the

evidence

i m p li c a t in g

Narainpershad

s p e c i fic

m e n ti o n w a s m a d e a b o u t t h e tr e a d f o r Mr – t r e a d m il l
M r P a n d a y h a d b o u g h t fo r h i m a n d t h e b ir t h d a y p a r ty
t h a t Mr P a n d a y p a id fo r fo r t h e P C ’s h u s b a n d .
C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g th e n w e n t o n t o s a y if
A d v o c a t e L e t s h o lo d o e s n o t t h i n k th e r e w a s e n o u g h
10

evidence against the PC then there was not enough
e v i d e n c e a g a in s t N a r a i n p e r s h a d a s t h e e v i d e n c e w a s
the same and he might as well close the docket.
A d v o c a t e L e ts h o lo t h e n s a i d , h e w o u l d r e l o o k a t t h e
e v i d e n c e a n d w o u ld p r o v i d e f e e d b a c k a t t h e n e x t
m e e ti n g .

N o f e e d b a c k w a s p r o v id e d a t – i n th is

r e g a r d w h i le I w a s p r e s e n t i n th e m e e ti n g w h ic h w a s
on 14 March 2014.”
N o w C h a ir t h a t w a s th e d a t e o f th e – w h e n t h a t m e m o r a n d u m w a s
w r i t t e n s u b s e q u e n t t o th a t m e e t i n g s a y i n g t h a t h e h a d d e c id e d n o t to
20

p r o s e c u t e a n y o f t h e s u s p e c ts . B u t a t n o s t a g e d i d h e s a y t h e r e is n o
e v i d e n c e . H e ju s t h a d d r a w n h is o w n c o n c lu s i o n th a t i t w a s t a i n te d a n d
t h e c o n c lu s i o n a p p e a r s t o b e b a s e d o n th e i n c o r r e c t f a c ts C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d if I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly i n h i s m e m o r a n d u m h e
r e a l ly d o e s n o t r e fe r in a n y s ig n i f ic a n t w a y t o t h e e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t t h e
s u s p e c ts o n t h e m e r i ts .

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M R W H I T E : H e d o e s n o t r e fe r t o i t a t a l l C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t a ll ja . A n d y o u s a i d t h a t y o u h a d b e e n w o r k i n g o n
t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n o n y o u r p a r t o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n fo r a b o u t e i g h te e n
m o n th s b e f o r e y o u f in is h e d y o u r r e p o r t o r w a s i t m o r e th a n e i g h te e n
m o n th s ?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir it w a s fi f t e e n m o n th s I th i n k u p u n t il w h e n w e

p r o v i d e d t h e f ir s t d r a f t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W h ic h w a s in t h e M a y o f th e p r e v io u s y e a r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e n – w e t h e n d i d n o t d o a n y m o r e d e ta il e d w o r k b e c a u s e
it w a s s i tt i n g w i th th e p r o s e c u t o r f o r s ix m o n th s a n d th e n t h e r e w e r e
t h e s e m e e ti n g s j u s t b e f o r e C h r is t m a s a n d t h e n e a r ly in t h is N e w Ye a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : S o t h e o n ly a d d i ti o n a l w o r k d o n e fr o m – fr o m m y s i d e w a s
t o u p d a t e t h e r e p o r t to a d d r e s s th e p r o s e c u t o r ’s q u e r i e s a n d a t t h e
m e e ti n g o n t h e 1 4 M a r c h I w a s r e a d y to s ig n t h e r e p o r t .

I thought it

w a s a l l a d d r e s s e d w e c a n s ig n t h e r e p o r t a n d – a n d I w a s e x p e c t in g t o
b e a s k e d f o r i n f o r m a ti o n r e la t in g to a c h a r g e s h e e t th a t w o u l d b e d r a w n
20

up.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Yo u h a v e i n d ic a t e d t h e v i e w t h a t w a s

e x p r e s s e d b y C o l o n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g a t t h a t m e e t in g t h a t t h e
e v i d e n c e a g a in s t C a p t a i n N a r a i n p e r s h a d a n d th a t a g a i n s t t h e P r o v i n c ia l
C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s th e s a m e . D o y o u a g r e e w i th t h a t v i e w ?

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M R W H I T E : I d o C h a ir t o th e e x te n t th a t I w a s o f th e o p in io n th a t th e y
w e r e b o t h b e i n g r e c e iv i n g s o m e f o r m o f g r a t i fi c a t io n t o d o s o m e t h in g
t h a t w a s i m p r o p e r. I t w a s d i ff e r e n t t h i n g s t h e y w e r e b e i n g a s k e d t o d o .
A s i n C a p t a i n N a r a i n p e r s h a d w a s b e i n g a s k e d t o n o t c o m p ly w i t h t h e
p o li c e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s f o r th e b e n e f i t o f M r P a n d a y a n d h i s
e n t i ti e s w h i l e b a s e d o n t h e a ffi d a v it s t h a t h a v e b e e n p r o v id e d t o m e th e
P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r w a s b e i n g g i v e n a g r a ti f ic a ti o n t o t r y a n d s to p
t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o a g a i n s o m e th i n g fo r t h e b e n e fi t o f Mr P a n d a y a n d
h is e n ti ti e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O f c o u r s e – o f c o u r s e t h e – i t c o u l d n o t b e r e a ll y

1 0 0 % c o r r e c t t o s a y th e e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t th e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s io n e r
is t h e s a m e a s t h e e v i d e n c e a g a in s t C o lo n e l M a d h o e , M r – a n d Mr
P a n d a y a n d w h o e v e r e l s e b e c a u s e th e y c e r ta i n ly o n w h a t I h a v e s e e n
h e r e t h is is n o t th e s a m e s i tu a ti o n a s w h e r e p e o p le a r e t o g e t h e r a n d
t h e y d o s o m e t h i n g a n d th e y a r e w i t n e s s e d b y o n e o r t w o w i t n e s s e s a n d
t h o s e w i tn e s s e s s a y t h e s a m e t h i n g in r e g a r d to a ll th o s e p e o p l e w h o
w e r e t h e r e d o i n g th e r e d o i n g w h a t e v e r i t w a s th e y w e r e d o in g . I t i s a n
ill e g a l g a t h e r i n g o r a s s a u l ti n g s o m e b o d y.

I n r e g a r d to t h e P r o v i n c ia l

C o m m i s s i o n e r t h e m a i n c o n d u c t o f h e r p a r t – m a y b e i t is n o t th e m a in
20

b u t v e r y p r o m in e n t p a r t is t h e fa c t t h a t s h e w a s s a i d t o h a v e m a d e
c e r t a i n p h o n e c a l ls to p e o p l e u n d e r h e r t o s a y, s to p th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s .
N o w t h e p e o p l e w h o w o u l d t e s t if y w h e t h e r t h a t h a p p e n e d a r e n o t t h e
p e o p l e w h o w o u ld – t h e y w e r e n o t g o in g t o g i v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t p h o n e
c a l ls t o - m a d e b y s o m e b o d y e l s e in r e la t io n t o th e s a m e t h i n g . S o – s o
it m i g h t n o t b e a c c u r a t e .

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M R W H I T E:

C h a ir I g e t y o u r p o i n t .

I t w a s n o t t h e s a m e a ll e g e d

ir r e g u l a r o r i ll e g a l c o n d u c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

I t w a s j u s t – a n d a l s o t h e o n e is b a s e d o n d o c u m e n t a r y

e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o C a p t a i n N a r a i n p e s h a d w h e r e a s t h e Pr o v in c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r is b a s e d o n w h a t t w o o f h e r s u b o r d i n a t e s s a i d .

Th e r e

a r e n o t d o c u m e n ts to p r o v e t h a t t h a t is w h a t s h e s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:
10

S o t h e r e is a d i ff e r e n c e i n t h a t r e g a r d .

The – the – my

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h e r e C o lo n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g w a s s a y in g i t is t h e
s a m e is t h a t b a s e d o n th e d o c u m e n t s a n d th e a ffi d a v i t s o f s u p p l ie r s
b o t h C a p t a in N a r a in p e r s h a d a n d t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m is s i o n e r r e c e iv e d
a b e n e fi t t o d o s o m e th i n g i m p r o p e r t h a t is n o t i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e ir
d u t ie s f o r t h e b e n e f it o f Mr P a n d a y. S o t h a t is t h e e x t e n t t o w h ic h i t i s
t h e s a m e b u t I t a k e y o u r p o in t C h a ir t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e i s n o t e x a c tl y t h e
same.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Now after you had been

shown the memorandum by Advocate Letsholo and you had responded
20

d i d y o u d i s c u s s t h e r e a s o n fo r s t o p p in g t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w i t h C o l o n e l
Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g ?
MR WHITE:

I d id C h a ir b e c a u s e w e w e r e a l l – I t h i n k

p r o b a b ly t h e r i g h t w o r d is a b i t t a k e n a b a c k – t h is – t h e p e o p le h a d
b e e n w o r k i n g d il ig e n tly o n th is f o r m o n t h s a n d i n t h e c a s e o f th e
in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r s y e a r s a n d s u d d e n l y it w a s j u s t s t o p p e d in it s

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tr a c k s f o r w a n t o f a b e t t e r w o r d .

A n d t h e in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r s w e r e

v e r y u p s e t a b o u t t h a t a n d th e y w a n t e d t o i d e n ti f y h o w it c o u l d b e ta k e n
– ta k e n f o r w a r d . A n d I a m n o t s u r e w h o s u g g e s t e d i t b u t i n th e n e x t
c o u p l e o f m o n t h s a s u g g e s ti o n c a m e o u t t h a t th e m a t te r s h o u l d b e
r e p o r t e d t o I P I D . B e c a u s e th is m a tt e r is a l le g e d to i n v o l v e th e a ll e g e d
p o li c e c o r r u p t io n a n d a s a r e s u l t i t w o u l d f a l l u n d e r I P I D ’s m a n d a t e a n d
a s a r e s u l t t h e r e w a s t h e n a d e c is io n m a d e t h a t i t b e r e p o r t e d to I D I P
a n d th e y b e a s k e d t o l o o k a t t h e e v id e n c e a n d p r o c e e d – p r o c e e d
f u r th e r. S o C h a ir t h a t – b u t p r i o r t o t h a t m e e t in g w i th I P I D b e i n g s e t u p
10

t h e P r o v i n c ia l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s A d v o c a te N o k o a ls o
w r o t e a m e m o r a n d u m . I t w a s a c t u a ll y d e a l in g – it s m a i n p u r p o s e w a s
t o d e a l w i th c a s e 4 6 6 w h ic h is t h e c a s e d e a li n g w i t h t h e a ll e g e d b r ib e
b y M r P a n d a y a n d C o l o n e l M a d h o e o f G e n e r a l B o o y s e n , b u t in t h a t
m e m o r a n d u m s h e a l s o d e a ls w i t h c a s e 7 8 1 a n d - a n d …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o l e t u s j u s t fi n d t h a t m e m o r a n d u m f ir s t a n d
t h e n w e w i ll c o m m e n t . C h a ir, it i s R R 4 B f o r B e a tr ic e . A n n e x u r e T S W 5
page 5-1-9.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r t h a t - th a t m e m o r a n d u m i t s t a r ts a t 5 - 1 - 9 . I t is
addressed

20

to

the

SAPS

Advocate Moipone Noko

-

i n v e s ti g a ti n g
th e

D ir e c t o r

o ffi c e r s
of

and

P u b l ic

it

is

fr o m

Pr o s e c u ti o n s

K w a Z u l u - N a t a l a n d i t is d a te d 2 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e s u b j e c t is
D u r b a n C e n tr a l C A S 4 6 6 / 9 /2 0 11 .
C o r r u p t io n
C o l o n e l N a v in M a d h o e .
le v e l w h a t s h e d o e s is .

against

Mr Thoshan Panday

and

C h a ir, i n t h is m e m o r a n d u m j u s t a t - a t a h ig h
S h e n o w p r o v i d e s r e a s o n s w h y th e r e i s n o

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
p r o s e c u t i o n in c a s e s 4 6 6 a n d 7 8 1 a n d e ffe c t iv e ly s h e s a y s :
“There could not have been a bribe in 466 if there
w a s n o e v i d e n c e in c a s e 7 8 1 . ”
I t is e ff e c ti v e ly w h a t s h e s a y s , b e c a u s e t h e b r i b e r e l a t e d to
t h e - to t h e fo r m e r c a s e . W h a t s h e th e n d o e s C h a i r i s s h e d o e s n o t u s e
t h e r e a s o n s a d v a n c e d b y A d v o c a te L e t s h o l o f o r s a y i n g t h e r e i s n o c a s e
b e i n g t h a t th e e v id e n c e w a s ta i n t e d .

S h e n o w a c t u a l ly s a y s th a t

A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o h a s c o m e to t h e c o n c l u s io n t h a t t h e r e i s n o e v id e n c e
a g a in s t t h e s u s p e c t s .
10

C h a ir w h ic h is ju s t fa c tu a l ly w r o n g , b e c a u s e t h a t w a s n o t
A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o ’s v i e w.

H i s v i e w i n m e e t in g s w a s th a t th e r e w a s a

g o o d c a s e . S o C h a ir, s h e …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: If …
MR WHITE: Has some …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

If you can just refer then to paragraph 2.3

w h e r e t h i s is s a i d a n d p e r h a p s j u s t r e a d w h a t w a s s a id i n t o t h e r e c o r d
please. That you are commenting on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l - w e ll i f h e h a s c o v e r e d i t . I t i s f in e . I t …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I t m ig h t n o t n e e d to b e r e a d .

U n l e s s th e r e i s a

special reason why it should be read.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: There are aspects …
C H A I R P E R S O N : If it is c o v e r e d b u t - b y w h a t h e h a s s a i d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h e r e is .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e r e a r e s o m e a s p e c ts t h a t I w o u ld l ik e t h e
w i t n e s s to c o m m e n t o n - i f I m a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l h i m w h a t - w h a t t h e p o i n ts a r e t h a t a r e m a d e in
t h e p a r a g r a p h a n d le t h i m c o m m e n t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I t - i t is s u g g e s t e d th e r e t h a t t h e r e w a s
a b s o l u t e ly n o e v i d e n c e to p r o s e c u te a n y p e r s o n w i t h a n y o ff e n c e a n d
t h e n i t is s a id w h e n t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s r e a l i s e d t h a t t h e P C c o u l d n o t b e
c h a r g e d s i m p ly b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t h e r. T h e n th e
p r o s e c u t o r - t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r - w h o is M r Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g - s a id h e
10

m a y a s w e l l c l o s e th e 7 8 1 c a s e . C a n y o u c o m m e n t o n t h a t ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h e w a y i t is w r i t t e n …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : It c o n t a i n s a n u m b e r o f f a c ts t h a t a r e j u s t w r o n g C h a ir. S o
ju s t - b e c a u s e i t i s w r i t t e n a s i f t h e r e a s o n s g iv e n a r e t h a t t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n

was

d ir e c t e d

to

tr y

to

i m p l ic a t e

the

Provincial

C o m m i s s i o n e r. C h a i r th a t w a s - w a s n e v e r t h e in t e n t i o n . I t w a s a r o u n d
p r o c u r e m e n t a n d t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s i o n e r c o m e s r i g h t a t t h e e n d o f
t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n - i n th e t i m e li n e a n d in - i n w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d i f
o n e r e a d s a n d j u s t o n e s e n t e n c e I w o u l d li k e t o r e a d o u t o f t h i s
20

p a r a g r a p h w h ic h i s t w o t h ir d s o f t h e w a y d o w n . It s a id :
“ I t a p p e a r s Mr P a n d a y a n d C o lo n e l M a d h o e f e a tu r e d
n o w h e r e in t h e 7 8 1 th e n a s t h e fo c u s w a s o n th e
PC.”
C h a ir i f a n y o n e r e a d m y r e p o r t o r th e d o c k e t th e y w o u l d s e e
that is not the case.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
CHAIRPERSON:

I m e a n t h e - t h e w h o l e i n v e s t ig a ti o n u n d e r 7 8 1

r e l a t e d t o Mr P a n d a y a n d h e - a n d h e a n d h is e n t i ti e s a n d t h e c o n d u c t
o f c e r t a in p e o p l e w i t h i n S A P S .
MR WHITE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o lo n e l M a d h o e a n d s o o n .
M R W H I T E : T h a t is 1 0 0 p e r c e n t c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o t h e p o in t y o u m a k e is o n ly s o m e b o d y w h o h a d
n o c l u e w h a t t h e - y o u r r e p o r t c o n ta i n e d a n d w h a t t h e 2 0 l e v e r a r c h t h a t
y o u t o ld m e a b o u t c o n t a i n e d w o u l d s a y t h i s ?
10

M R W H I T E : C h a ir to u s e y o u r w o r d s . Ye s . T h e p e r s o n h a d n o c l u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE: Either they did not read it …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : O f if t h e y d i d t h e y d i d n o t c a r e w h a t i t s a i d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d th e y w r o te s o m e t h i n g t h a t is ju s t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : I t i s b a s e d o n t h e w r o n g f a c t s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

H m , b u t o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t b e fo r e s h e

w r o t e t h a t t h e r e w a s n o e v id e n c e . S h e w o u l d h a v e t a k e n t h e tr o u b l e to
g o a n d c h e c k t h e f il e s .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, t a k in g i n to a c c o u n t t h a t t h is i n v o lv e d t h e m o s t

s e n i o r m e m b e r o f t h e p o l ic e s e r v ic e i n t h e p r o v i n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

I t i n v o lv e d o t h e r s e n io r p o l i c e o ffic i a ls .

Page 68 of 158

The amount of

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
m o n e y w a s s i g n i fi c a n t . J a . I t j u s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is d i ffi c u l t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e r e a s o n i n g .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, b a s e d o n - o n a ll l o g ic i t - i t - o n th e f a c ts i t is

d i ff ic u l t to u n d e r s t a n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : U n l e s s t h e r e is a n u l t e r io r m o ti v e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h a t c a n b e t h e o n l y i n fe r e n c e t h a t c a n b e d r a w n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - a n d - w e l l s h e m a y h a v e mi s c o n s tr u e d

A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o ’s r e a s o n s t o d e c li n e t o p r o s e c u te in 7 8 1 a s w e l l ,
b e c a u s e y o u m a d e th e p o i n t t h a t i t is - i t i s a p p a r e n t fr o m h e r n o t e th a t
s h e th o u g h t A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o s a i d t h e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e t o j u s ti fy
p r o s e c u t i n g t h e s u s p e c ts in 7 8 1 .
W h e r e a s h is a p p r o a c h w h a t h e s a id w a s c e r t a i n th i n g s t a in t e d
t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d b e c a u s e o f th a t h e w a s d e c li n i n g t o p r o s e c u t e
ir r e s p e c t iv e o f w h a t t h e s tr e n g th o f t h e e v id e n c e i s , b u t a s y o u s a id h e
d i d s a y i n - i n y o u r m e e ti n g s th a t a t l e a s t t h e c a s e a g a in s t c e r t a i n o f
20

t h e s u s p e c ts w a s s tr o n g . T h a t is w h a t y o u s a y h e s a id . Is th a t r i g h t?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir th a t i s c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : C h a ir a n d - a n d w i t h r e s p e c t I c a n n o t s e e t h a t s h e c o u ld
have had that memorandum …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
M R W H I T E : O r r e f e r r e d t o i t w h e n w r i ti n g t h is …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e th a t m e m o r a n d u m is v e r y c l e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
MR WHITE: It does not ever say there is no evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : I t ju s t - a c u r s o r y r e a d o f it w o u l d - w o u l d le a d o n e t o t h a t
conclusion.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Hm.

Well I - well she might have read it at some

s t a g e a n d d i d n o t h a v e it a t th e ti m e o r s h e m i g h t ju s t h a v e h e a r d t h a t
A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o r e fu s e d o r d e c li n e d t o p r o s e c u t e a n d t o o k w h a t
w o u ld b e t h e n o r m a l r e a s o n f o r n o t p r o s e c u ti n g , b e c a u s e th e n o r m a l
r e a s o n w o u ld b e t h e r e is n o t e n o u g h e v i d e n c e o r t h e r e i s n o e v i d e n c e ,
b u t t h i s w a s a c a s e w h e r e A d v o c a te L e t s h o l o w a s n o t r e ly in g o n t h a t .
O k a y.
M R W H I T E : I c a n n o t ta k e it a n y fu r t h e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir a n d j u s t t o r e m i n d t h e C h a i r th a t i n
t h e m e m o r a n d u m i t w a s s a i d t w i c e a n d i f n o t t h r e e ti m e s i n t h e c o u r s e

20

o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t t h e r e w a s a b s o l u te ly n o n e e d f o r a n y
m o n i t o r in g , b e c a u s e i t w a s a s tr a i g h t f o r w a r d c a s e .

The - the

m e m o r a n d u m is p r e m is e d o n t h e b a s is t h a t th e r e i s g o o d e v id e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B u t t h e n a c o n c l u s i o n is d r a w n th a t t h e

e v i d e n c e w a s t a i n te d w h ic h th e w i t n e s s h a s s a i d is f u n d a m e n ta ll y

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
fl a w e d . A t p a r a g r a p h - I - I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u - i f y o u w a n t to c o m m e n t
on it, but you can.

A t p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 0 if y o u w is h o n p a g e 5 - 2 - 2

A d v o c a t e N o k o c o m m e n t s o n w h y o n e a r t h w o u l d i t b e n e c e s s a r y to
b a c k d a t e t h is r e p o r t a n d s a y s - a n d w h e n r e a d w i th t h e p r e v i o u s
s t a te m e n t m a d e a b o u t C o l o n e l M a d h o e w h ic h is t o th e e ffe c t t h a t h e
had done nothing wrong.
T h e r e w a s a b s o l u te ly n o th i n g w r o n g . T h e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e
a g a in s t h i m .

D o y o u a g r e e w i t h t h e c o n c lu s i o n th a t t h e r e w o u ld h a v e

n o m o t iv e f o r C o l o n e l M a d h o e t o b r i b e G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ?
10

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h e r e - t h e r e w a s a m o t iv e . C h a i r a n d - w e l l it is
- i f o n e d o e s n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e b a c k g r o u n d to t h is . I t is q u it e d i ffic u lt
t o u n d e r s ta n d , b e c a u s e i t i s r e f e r r i n g t o t h is r e p o r t . T h e r e p o r t t h a t is
being referred to is a document prepared by Major-General Booysen
and

th a t

contained

a p p lic a ti o n s

for

the

evidence
-

th e

that

Section

was

used

in

support

205 subpoenas

of

of the

the
bank

s t a te m e n ts fr o m t h e - f r o m t h e v a r i o u s b a n k s r e la t in g t o M r P a n d a y ’s
e n t i ti e s .
I f t h a t r e p o r t h a d b e e n d a t e d a ft e r t h e s u b p o e n a s i t w o u ld
h a v e m e a n th a t th e s u b p o e n a s w e r e a p p l ie d fo r w i th o u t t h e r e b e i n g
20

r e a s o n a b l e g r o u n d s to a s k a n d a s a r e s u l t c o u ld h a v e b e e n i n v a li d a t e d
w h ic h w o u l d m e a n a l l t h o s e d o c u m e n t s t h a t h a d b e e n r e l ie d u p o n in t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n w o u l d b e in a d m is s ib l e .
S o t h a t i s w h a t t h e a t t e m p te d b r i b e w a s t o d o .

W a s to g e t

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n to d a t e i t a f t e r t h e d a t e s o f t h e s u b p o e n a s s o t h a t
t h e r e c o u l d b e a le g a l - a te c h n i c a l l e g a l a r g u m e n t t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
w a s i n a d m i s s i b le . S o t h a t is w h a t - b u t t h e n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t
A d v o c a t e N o k o is tr y in g t o d o h e r e is t o s a y, b e c a u s e t h e r e is n o
evidence in 781.
T h e r e w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a r e a s o n t o b a c k d a te i t o r t o - t o
g e t th e - to p a y a b r i b e t o tr y a n d g e t t h e e v i d e n c e to b e in a d m is s i b l e .
S o i t is a b i t o f a c ir c u l a r r e a s o n i n g , b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE: At the end of the day …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e a r g u m e n t f a l ls fl a t i f t h e r e w a s e v id e n c e ?
10

M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C h a ir, i f t h e r e w a s - i f t h e r e w a s n o

e v i d e n c e o n e w o u ld w o n d e r w h y a n a p p li c a ti o n w o u l d b e m a d e to s e t
a s i d e a s u b p o e n a t o e x c l u d e e v id e n c e . I t - i t j u s t d o e s n o t m a k e a n y
s e n s e w h a t s o e v e r. M r W h i t e i f w e c o u ld t h e n g o to p a g e 3 4 p a r a g r a p h
4 1 o f y o u r r e p o r t?
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 34.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
20

M R W H I T E : C h a ir, i t is R R 4 . I t is t h e a ffi d a v i t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e a ffi d a v i t . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o n f u s e d m e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y C h a ir.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u Mr W h i te .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir, a t p a r a g r a p h 4 1 I t h e n - p r e v i o u s ly I h a d s a i d

t h a t t h e r e w a s d is c u s s i o n s a b o u t ta k i n g t h e m a t t e r t o I P I D a n d a
m e e ti n g w a s s c h e d u le d fo r 1 4 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a t I P I D ’s O ff ic e s i n
D u r b a n . T h e m e e ti n g w a s c o n v e n e d b y G e n e r a l M a h a r a j w h o w a s t h e
K Z N H e a d o f I P I D a n d t h e E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r b e i n g t h e H e a d o f I P I D
N a t io n a l ly - M r R o b e r t M c B r i d e a l s o a t te n d e d t h e m e e t in g .
I w a s p r e s e n t a s w e l l a s a n u m b e r o f th e i n v e s t ig a ti n g
o ffic e r s . M r M c Br id e w a s b r i e f e d a r o u n d t h e d e ta ils r e la t in g t o t h e c a s e
10

a n d t h e d is s a ti s f a c t io n f r o m t h e p o l ic e ’s p e r s p e c ti v e a b o u t th e fa c t th a t
t h e d e c is io n h a d b e e n m a d e n o t t o p r o s e c u te . H e t h e n c a ll e d s o m e o n e
fr o m h i s c e l lp h o n e in t h e m e e t i n g w h o I b e li e v e w a s th e N D P P a t t h e
ti m e - j u s t b a s e d o n th e c o n v e r s a ti o n fr o m w h a t I c o u l d h e a r - w h ic h
w a s Mr N x a s a n e a n d h e s a id t h a t t h i s m a t t e r i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld b e M r N x a s a n e …
MR WHITE: Nxasane.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d f o r t h e tr a n s c r i b e r s N - X - A- S - A- N - E . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M R W H I T E : A n d C h a ir h e - h e t h e n s a id t h is w a s a - a s e r i o u s m a t te r -

20

t h a t b e in g Mr M c B r i d e - a n d n e e d e d t o b e t a k e n f o r w a r d e d a n d th e
p e r p e tr a to r s p r o s e c u t e d .

C h a ir, th e r e w a s t h e n - i f I c o u l d j u m p

f o r w a r d i n m y - m y d o c u m e n t to p a g e 3 9 o f m y a ff id a v i t . Th e r e w a s a a t p a r a g r a p h 4 3 - th e r e w a s t h e n a fo ll o w u p m e e t in g s c h e d u l e d t o
d is c u s s th e d e t a i l, b e c a u s e Mr M c B r i d e w a n te d to i n v o lv e s e n i o r
in v e s t i g a t o r s o u t o f t h e Pr e to r i a O ffi c e o f I P I D a n d t h a t m e e t in g w a s s e t

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
for 21 November 2014.
There were a number of IPID members present.

I do not

s p e c i f ic a l ly r e c a l l a ll t h e ir n a m e s a n d a g a i n th e y a s k e d m e t o e x p la i n
t h e b a c k g r o u n d t o t h e m a t t e r a n d s o m e o f t h e d e t a i l w h i c h I d id a n d
t h e n t h e y a s k e d w h y t h e r e p o r t w a s s til l i n d r a f t , b e c a u s e s u b s e q u e n t
t o t h e m e e ti n g w h e r e A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o d e c l in e d t o p r o s e c u te I h a d
n e v e r i s s u e d a fi n a l r e p o r t , b e c a u s e I w a s o f t h e v i e w th a t if t h e r e w a s
a n e w p r o s e c u t o r a p p o i n te d a t s o m e p o i n t in t h e f u t u r e .
T h e y m a y h a v e d i ff e r e n t q u e r ie s .
10

I e x p la in e d t o th e I P I D

m e m b e r s t h a t th e r e p o r t w a s fi n a l a s fa r a s I w a s c o n c e r n e d a n d c o u l d
b e is s u e d .

T h e y th e n r e q u e s t e d t h a t i f t h a t w a s t h e c a s e i f I c o u l d

is s u e a f in a l r e p o r t s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d t a k e th e a p p r o p r ia t e a c ti o n s . I
t h e n is s u e d t h e fi n a l r e p o r t t h r e e d a y s l a t e r w h e n I w a s b a c k i n D u r b a n
o n 2 4 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d t h a t is th e r e p o r t th a t is a t ta c h e d a s
A n n e x u r e T S W 1 t o t h is a ffi d a v it .
C h a ir, c o n ti n u i n g a t p a g e 4 0 o f m y a ffi d a v i t . T h e r e w e r e t h e n
t w o fu r t h e r fo ll o w u p m e e t in g s w i t h I P I D r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s t o w o r k
t h r o u g h t h e d e ta il to - I m e a n - i t i s a s ig n i fi c a n t a m o u n t o f e v i d e n c e .
That was on 26 November 2014 and 23 January 2015.
20

C h a ir, I w a s

t h e n a s k e d t o a t te n d a f u r th e r m e e t in g i n P r e t o r i a a t I P I D ’s O ff ic e o n
3 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 t o a g a i n d is c u s s th is m a t t e r.
W h e n I a r r iv e d a t t h e m e e ti n g th e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f I P I D
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s i n c l u d i n g M r M c B r i d e a n d a ls o i n a t te n d a n c e w a s
A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l a n d M r A n d r e w L e a s k fr o m th e N PA in P r e t o r ia a s
w e ll a s M a jo r - G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a n d C o lo n e l Va n L o g g e r e n b e r g . C h a ir,

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
t h e - t h e p u r p o s e o f a s i t w a s e x p la i n e d t o m e o f A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l
b e i n g p r e s e n t w a s th a t t h e N D P P …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r W h i te . S o m e h o w I h a v e lo s t y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms W e n tz e l w h e r e - w h e r e a r e w e n o w ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: I thought we went to page 43 at some stage.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o . H e is d e a l i n g w i th p a r a g r a p h 4 6 n o w o n
p a g e 4 0 C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: On - on page 40?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : P a g e 4 0 p a r a g r a p h 4 6 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir m a y b e j u s t t o r e c a p . T h a t w a s t h e m e e t in g o n

3 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 a t I P I D ’s O ff ic e s a n d th i s w a s n o w a l s o a t te n d e d b y
A d v o c a t e G e r r i e N e l a n d M r A n d r e w L e a s k fr o m t h e N PA .

It was the

fir s t ti m e I h a d m e t e i th e r o f th e m r e la t i n g to t h is m a t te r a n d i t w a s
explained

to

me

th a t o r

it was

explained

in

the

m e e ti n g t h a t

A d v o c a t e N e l w a s a t t e n d i n g t h e m e e ti n g o n in s t r u c t i o n o f t h e N D P P a s
h e w a n te d h i m t o c o n s i d e r th e m a tt e r to s e e w h e th e r th e N D P P s h o u l d
20

c o n s i d e r r e o p e n in g t h e c a s e s a n d w h e th e r s o m e b o d y s h o u l d b e
p r o s e c u t e d i n th e m a t te r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And who explained that to you?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I a m n o t s p e c i f ic a l ly s u r e . I t w a s e i t h e r M r M c B r i d e
o r - o r A d v o c a t e N e l h i ms e lf …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .

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M R W H I T E : B u t C h a ir b e fo r e th e m e e t in g f o r m a ll y s t a r t e d M r M c B r i d e
m a d e w h a t I t h o u g h t a t t h e ti m e w a s a v e r y s tr a n g e c o m m e n t . H e s a i d
t h a t h e is g o i n g to d u s t o ff h is f is h i n g r o d s a s h e is g o i n g to b e d o i n g a
lo t o f fi s h i n g i n t h e n e a r f u tu r e . E v e r y b o d y lo o k e d a t h i m w i t h a b i t o f
amazement and asked him what he meant by this and he said that we
h a v e b e e n g o in g p l a c e s w e a r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o a n d a r e t r e a d i n g o n t h e
t o e s o f th e w r o n g p e o p l e a n d th a t h e h a d h e a r d i n th e c o r r i d o r s t h a t h e
w a s g o i n g to b e s u s p e n d e d s h o r t ly.
C h a ir t h a t m e e ti n g w a s o n 3 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 . Mr M c Br i d e w a s
10

s u s p e n d e d t h e fo ll o w i n g m o n t h .
f o ll o w i n g p a g e .

I n M a r c h 2 0 1 5 a n d I c o n ti n u e a t t h e

Page 41 paragraph 48.

A d v o c a t e N e l in th e m e e t i n g

s a i d h e d id n o t u n d e r s ta n d A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o ’s d e c is io n a n d th e b a s i s
o n w h i c h h e c a m e t o i t a n d h e s a i d h e w o u l d r e c o m m e n d to t h e N D P P
t h a t th e N PA p r o c e e d w i t h t h e fo r m a l it i e s o f r e o p e n i n g t h e m a t t e r.
H o w e v e r s h o r tl y a f t e r th a t i n M a y 2 0 1 5 t h e N D P P v a c a t e d h is
p o s i ti o n a n d A d v o c a te A b r a h a m s w a s a p p o in t e d . C h a ir, s i n c e t h a t d a t e
I h a v e n o t b e e n fu r t h e r c o n s u l t e d in t h e m a t te r.

S o i t is s o m e fi v e

y e a r s C h a ir. A ll t h a t h a p p e n e d s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t w a s I P I D r e q u e s te d
f u r th e r c o p i e s o f t h e d o c u m e n ts , b e c a u s e C h a i r a t th e ti m e p e o p l e i n
20

I P I D w e r e b e in g s u s p e n d e d , r e in s t a t e d , s u s p e n d e d a n d I a s s u m e d
d o c u m e n ts h a d b e e n l o s t .
So further copies were provided in June 2016 and then in
a d d it i o n t o t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. S o i f a d e c is i o n h a d to b e ta k e n w h e th e r th e
d e c is i o n n o t to p r o s e c u te i n th is c a s e w a s to b e r e v e r s e d . T h e p e r s o n

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
w h o w o u l d h a v e h a d t o r e v e r s e it w o u l d h a v e b e e n M r N x a s a n e ,
b e c a u s e h e w a s th e N D P P a t th e ti m e . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir th a t i s m y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s y o u u n d e r s to o d t h e p o s i t io n .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir t h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g , b e c a u s e th e - t h e D P P h a d
m a d e t h e d e c is i o n n o t to p r o s e c u te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , a t p r o v i n c ia l l e v e l .
M R W H I T E : S o t h a t w o u l d b e t h e o n ly w a y f o r i t to b e r e o p e n e d w o u ld
b e f o r th e N D P P …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : To b e c o m e i n v o lv e d a n d - a n d t a k e i t o n r e v i e w a n d - a n d
c o m e t o a d i ff e r e n t c o n c lu s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . C o n ti n u e .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON:
m e e ti n g

which

A n d - I a m s o r r y.
you

attended

where

E a r ly o n y o u te s ti fi e d a b o u t a
M r M c Br i d e

made

a

c a ll

to

M r N x a s a n e . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d th a t c a ll - t h a t m e e t in g w a s i t d is c u s s i n g t h e

m a t t e r t o w h ic h y o u r r e p o r t r e l a te s ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. I t - i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e 4 6 6 m a t te r ?
M R W H I T E : I t r e l a te d to b o th C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To b o t h . J a .
MR WHITE:

S o b o t h c a s e s w e r e p r e s e n te d t o M r M c Br i d e a t th a t

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
m e e ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e th e y - t h e y l in k e d i n a w a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e 4 6 6 i s a d ir e c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O ffs h o o t .
MR WHITE: Result of 781.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s . O k a y.
MR WHITE:
10

So - so the DPP had come to the conclusion that there

was no evidence against the suspects in 781 and 466.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . H m . O k a y.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h a t w a s s o m e f iv e y e a r s a g o . I w a s th e n o r a

p e r s o n i n m y o ffi c e b e c a m e a w a r e t h a t i n S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 8 A d v o c a t e
O ’ Br ie n fr o m t h e S C C U i n - in D u r b a n h a d n o w b e e n a l lo c a t e d th is
m a t t e r a n d s h e h a d r e q u e s te d c o p ie s o f t h e f l o w o f f u n d s a n d t h e
ti m e li n e d i a g r a m s w h ic h w e r e p r o v i d e d t o h e r.
C h a ir, b u t a s f a r a s fu r t h e r c o n s u l ta t io n s o r p r o c e s s e s I - I
h a v e h e a r d n o t h i n g i n th a t r e g a r d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR WHITE:

S o fo r - e ff e c t iv e ly f o r fi v e y e a r s n o t h in g h a s h a p p e n e d

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . H m a n d a ll t h e e v i d e n c e w a s r e a d y a s f a r a s y o u
knew?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h e r e is li t e r a ll y 1 0 0 ’s o f a ff id a v i ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
MR WHITE: In the docket.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e fo r e n s ic r e p o r t i s c o m p l e t e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : I t i s - i t is is s u e d in 2 0 1 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h e in v e s t i g a t in g t e a m w a s ju s t

w a i ti n g f o r a c h a r g e s h e e t fr o m th e p r o s e c u to r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g h a s a c h a r g e

sheet ever been prepared?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And Mr Panday ever arrested?
M R W H I T E : N o t i n r e la t io n t o - t o 7 8 1 C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
want

you

to

deal

T h e n i f w e c a n ju s t - i f y o u d o n o t m i n d .
w i th

a

response

A d v o c a t e N o k o ’s m e m o r a n d u m .

by

C o lo n e l B o o y s e n

I
to

Yo u d e a l w i t h i t i n y o u r a ffi d a v it a t

p a r a g r a p h 4 2 o n p a g e 3 5 a n d C h a ir th e m e m o r a n d u m i ts e lf h e - h e
q u o t e s fr o m th e m e m o r a n d u m .
20

T h e m e m o r a n d u m it s e l f is in E X H I B I T

RR4B at page 5-2-7.
CHAIRPERSON: What - what is the point about the memorandum?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o i s i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u r e s p o n d e d t o

A d v o c a t e L e ts h o l o ’s m e m o r a n d u m a n d b y t h a t l e t t e r t h a t w e r e fe r r e d t o
e a r l ie r in y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
that

we

ju s t

A n d th a t t h e m e m o r a n d u m o f A d v o c a te N o k o

r e fe r r e d

to

was

-

was

responded

to

by

M a jo r - G e n e r a l B o o y s e n o n 1 9 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u q u o t e fr o m t h i s m e m o r a n d u m i n y o u r
a ffi d a v i t a n d h e d e a ls - w e l l I - I a m j u s t g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h i t i n y o u r
a ffi d a v i t a t p a r a g r a p h 3 6 fr o m y o u r q u o t e . W h e r e h e s a y s a t th e to p o f
the page:
“ Q u it e h o w it h a s b e e n r e v e a l e d b y t h e S C C U t h a t
10

t h e S A P S m e m b e r s c h a r g e d w it h t h e in v e s ti g a ti o n
o f D u r b a n C e n tr a l c a s e 7 8 1 w a s g u n n i n g fo r t h e
KwaZulu-Natal

Pr o v i n c i a l

C o m m i s s io n

L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l N g o b e n i is u n c l e a r. ”
I want to ask you were you at any stage when you were - in
t h e 1 5 m o n t h s y o u w e r e c o n d u c ti n g t h i s in v e s t i g a t io n to l d b y t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s t o f o c u s o n t h e P r o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And …
CHAIRPERSON:
20

in v e s t i g a t o r s

th a t

W a s th e r e a n y t h i n g in y o u r in t e r a c ti o n s w i t h t h e
s u g g e s te d

that

they

w a n te d

the

Provincial

C o m m i s s i o n e r - t h e y w e r e - t h e y - t h e y w a n t e d t h e Pr o v in c i a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r t o b e g iv e n s o m e s p e c i a l f o c u s ?
MR WHITE: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n i f th e y d i d n o t s a y s o i n s o m a n y w o r d s .
MR WHITE:

N o C h a ir.

T h e r e w e r e - th e r e w a s - s h e w a s n o t b e in g

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
s in g le d o u t f o r s p e c i fi c a t t e n t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

Th e r e w a s n o g r e a t e r f o c u s o n h e r t h a n a n y o f t h e o t h e r

s u s p e c ts i n t h e m a t t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
M R W H I T E : A n d C h a ir t h a t is a ls o q u it e c le a r if o n e lo o k s a t th e 4 0 0
p a g e s o f r e p o r t . T h e r e i s - I - I d o n o t k n o w o ff t h e t o p o f m y h e a d - 3 0
o r 4 0 p a g e s th a t d e a l w i t h h e r … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R W H I T E : S h e w a s n o t t h e fo c u s , b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : S h e h a d a s p e c i f ic in v o lv e m e n t a t t h e - a t t h e e n d o f t h e
ti m e p e r i o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W e w e r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i n t h e e n tir e fi le s o f e v id e n c e - 2 0 l e v e r a r c h
fi le s I t h i n k y o u s a i d .

Yo u - y o u w o u ld s a y m o r e o r l e s s w h a t e v e r

related to her might have taken about 20 or so pages.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r t h e - th e e v i d e n c e a g a in s t h e r is th e h a n d f u l o f
20

d o c u m e n ts fr o m t h e - t h e D is h R e s t a u r a n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : R e l a ti n g t o th e p a y m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : T h e b a n k s t a te m e n t s s h o w i n g th e p a y m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
MR WHITE:

And

then

the

a ffi d a v i t s

of

General Booysen

and

B r i g a d ie r K e m p .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : I - I d o n o t r e c a ll o ff t h e t o p o f m y h e a d h o w l o n g th e y a r e
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
M R W H I T E : B u t t h e y a r e n o t - t h e y in t h e 1 0 ’s o f p a g e s . N o t th e 1 0 0 ’s
of pages.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h e n I w o u l d lik e t o r e f e r y o u t o t h e

m i d d l e o f p a g e 3 6 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t a l s o s t il l q u o ti n g fr o m a le t t e r o f
General Booysen.

I t is j u s t t h e - w h a t h e s a y s in t h e m i d d l e o f th a t

p a r a g r a p h o n t h e t o p o f th a t p a g e . H e s a y s :
“The

in v e s t i g a t io n

focused

on

ir r e g u l a r i t ie s

before

her

a p p o i n t m e n t a s Pr o v in c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r, it i s t h u s lu d i c r o u s
t o b e li e v e a s u s p e c t i . e . P a n d a y a n d M a d h o e i n t h is r e g a r d .
T h e in v e s ti g a t in g o ffic e r s c o u ld n o t h a v e w a n te d t o f a l s e ly
i m p l ic a t e t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r fo r a c r i m e t h a t t o o k
20

p l a c e b e fo r e s h e a s s u m e d h e r p o s t . H e r i n v o lv e m e n t i n t h e
m a t t e r r e l a te s to a t te m p t s b y h e r t o in t e r fe r e w it h t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n a f t e r s h e a s s u m e d h e r p o s it io n a s Pr o v in c i a l
Commissioner and not with regard to the procurement of the
ir r e g u l a r i ti e s p e r s e ” .
N o w c a n y o u c o m m e n t o n t h a t?

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C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll h e h a s a lr e a d y s a i d t h a t is n ’t i t , h e h a s s a i d t h a t
t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n u n d e r c a s e 7 8 1 r e l a t e d t o th e p r o c u r e m e n t is s u e s
r e l a ti n g

to

Mr

Panday

and

whatever

r e l a te d

to

the

P r o v i n c ia l

C o m m i s s i o n e r w a s t h e a ll e g a t io n s t h a t s h e s t o p p e d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n
a n d th e p a y m e n t f o r – b y M r P a n d a y f o r h e r h u s b a n d ’s b ir th d a y p a r t y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir t h e a v e r m e n t t h a t w a s m a d e b y

A d v o c a t e N o k o i n t h e m e m o r a n d u m w a s a l s o t h a t t h e r e a s o n – a lt h o u g h
t h e r e w a s a b s o lu t e l y n o e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r
t h a t th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n h a d b e e n f o c u s e d o n h e r w a s b e c a u s e G e n e r a l
10

B o o y s e n w a n t e d h e r p o s t a n d t h e p o i n t t h a t h e is m a k in g h e r e i s t h a t
t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s ta r t e d b e f o r e s h e g o t h e r p o s t a n d th e n t h e
a l le g a ti o n s a g a in s t h e r o n l y a r o s e a f t e r s h e w a s t h e n a p p o i n t e d .

It

c o u l d n e v e r h a v e t h e n h a d t h e a ff e c t o f s t o p p i n g h e r g e t ti n g h e r p o s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t y o u c o v e r e d t h a t d i d n ’ t y o u w it h t h e h e a d o f
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n C o lo n e l v a n L o g g e r e n b e r g ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s i t h a s b e e n c o v e r e d th a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u l d li k e u s t o m o v e a s f a s t a s w e c a n , w e a r e n o t

m o v i n g a s f a s t a s I w o u l d lik e t o I’ m n o t b l a m in g a n y b o d y b u t I ’d l ik e u s
20

t o m o v e r a t h e r f a s t e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir I n o w w is h t o –

u n l e s s t h e r e ’s a n y t h i n g f u r t h e r th a t y o u w o u ld li k e t o a d d r e s s w i th
r e g a r d t o t h e P a n d a y m a t t e r, I w o u l d l i k e t o n o w m o v e o n t o th e
in v e s t i g a t io n i n to t h e I n ta k a m a t t e r
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e ts g o s tr a i g h t t o i t .

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ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Mr White how did you come to be
in v o lv e d in t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n in t h e I n ta k a m a t t e r ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I s e t i t o u t b y s a y i n g … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t ’s s t a r t b y s a y in g w h a t w a s t h e I n t a k a

matter?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir I n t a k a i s a n a m e o f a n e n t it y b a s e d i n C a p e To w n
t h a t s u p p l ie d , a m o n g s t o t h e r t h i n g s , w a t e r p u r i f ic a ti o n p l a n ts a n d s e l f
g e n e r a ti n g o x y g e n p l a n ts t h a t w e r e s u p p l ie d to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
H e a lt h a n d th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t in K Z N a s w e ll a s t o
10

t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h a n d v a r i o u s m u n ic ip a li ti e s i n t h e N o r t h e r n
C a p e . S o i t’s c a ll e d In t a k a b e c a u s e it ’s th e n a m e o f t h e e n t i ty i t’s a l s o
c o l l o q u ia lly c a l le d t h e A m i g o s c a s e b e c a u s e t h a t is t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h
D r S a v o i , t h e o w n e r a n d m a in s h a r e h o l d e r o f I n t a k a r e fe r s t o p e o p le i n
e m a i ls a n d l e t te r s , h e ’s f r o m S o u t h A m e r i c a a n d t h a t’s t h e w a y i t g o t
t h e t e r m in o lo g y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR

WHITE:

It

relates

to

a ll e g a t i o n s

of,

a g a in ,

procurement

ir r e g u l a r i ti e s a r o u n d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h is e n ti ty a n d t h e n a r o u n d
a l le g a ti o n s o f c o r r u p t p a y m e n t s m a d e b y I n ta k a t o v a r io u s o ff ic i a l s
20

within the Department of Health and Local Government both in the
N o r t h e r n C a p e a n d K Z N a s w e ll a s a ll e g e d p a y m e n t s t o t h e P o li t ic a l
H e a d s o f th e D e p a r t m e n t s o r fo r t h e ir b e n e f i t t h a t a ls o – w h o s e
d e p a r t m e n ts d i d b u s in e s s w i th I n t a k a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s h o w d i d y o u g e t i n v o lv e d ?
M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir ?

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C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d id y o u g e t i n v o l v e d i n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I s e t i t o u t a t p a g e 4 2 o r R R 4 , C h a i r i n it i a l ly P W C
w a s a p p o i n t e d b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h i n K Z N in M a y o f 2 0 0 9 t o
in v e s t i g a t e t h e in i ti a l c o n t r a c t s t h a t th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h h a d
e n t e r e d i n t o , i t w a s th e n – o u r m a n d a t e w a s f u r th e r e x t e n d e d i n
F e b r u a r y o f 2 0 1 0 a n d C h a ir t h e n i t w a s id e n t i fi e d t h a t th is c a s e is a l o t
b i g g e r t h a n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h i t a ls o in v o lv e s L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t
in K Z N a s w e ll a s s i g n i fic a n t p a y m e n t s t o e n t i ti e s i n t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e .
A t t h a t s t a g e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ff ic e r in t h e m a t t e r, C o l o n e l d u P l o y
10

a p p r o a c h e d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y, t h e A c c o u n ta n t G e n e r a l a n d s a i d t h a t
t h is c a s e g o e s a c r o s s a n u m b e r o f D e p a r t m e n ts i n a n u m b e r o f
p r o v i n c e s a n d r e q u e s t e d t h a t N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y b e c o m e in v o lv e d
b e c a u s e o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t ir r e g u la r i ti e s t h a t w e r e i n v o lv e d . N a t io n a l
Tr e a s u r y a g r e e d a n d th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f P W C to u n d e r ta k e th e s e
in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d t o a s s is t t h e p o l ic e g o i n g f o r w a r d i n p r e p a r i n g
r e p o r t s f o r C o u r t , th e m a n d a t e t h e n c a m e f r o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W e r e y o u g iv e n i n s tr u c ti o n s a s t o t h e m a n n e r
y o u s h o u l d c a r r y o u t t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
MR WHITE:

20

S o C h a ir w e w e r e to t a k e i n s tr u c t io n s f r o m t h e p o l ic e s o

w h il e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y w a s p a y i n g th e f e e s , fo r w a n t o f a b e t t e r w o r d ,
t h e y w e r e n o t d ir e c ti n g h o w to u n d e r ta k e t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n b e c a u s e w e
r e p o r t e d t o th e p o l ic e s o t h e p o li c e d ir e c t e d t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n t o g e t h e r
w i t h p r o s e c u t o r s th a t w e r e t h e n – b e c a m e i n v o lv e d i n th e c a s e , t h e r e
w e r e a l o t o f j u r i s d ic ti o n a l i s s u e s a n d tr y i n g t o m a n a g e i t a s o n e
in v e s t i g a t io n e v e n a l t h o u g h i t w a s a n u m b e r o f d e p a r t m e n ts a n d a

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n u m b e r o f – a n d t w o d i ff e r e n t p r o v in c e s b u t t h e o n e p ie c e – r a t h e r th a n
d ir e c t io n a n d I ’d r a th e r s a y i t ’s a d v ic e t h a t th e A c c o u n t a n t G e n e r a l
gave us at the time was, if you …[intervenes].
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y Ac c o u n ta n t G e n e r a l?
M R W H I T E : Ac c o u n ta n t G e n e r a l C h a ir, i n t h e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

M r F r e e m a n N o m v a l o h e s a id , d o t h e in v e s t i g a t io n fr o m

t h e b o t t o m u p a n d h is e x p l a n a t i o n – b e c a u s e i t d id n ’t , in i ti a l ly m a k e
s e n s e t o m e , w a s i f y o u s t a r t a t t h e t o p a n d p o li ti c i a n s a r e i n v o lv e d
10

y o u ’r e n o t g o in g to m a k e h e a d w a y w i t h y o u r in v e s ti g a t i o n .

So prove

t h e c a s e fr o m t h e b o t t o m u p a n d i f a t t h e l a s t m i n u t e p o l it ic ia n s a r e
id e n t i fi e d a s b e i n g i n v o l v e d , i t ’s v e r y h a r d t o d e r a il t h e c a s e b e c a u s e
y o u ’v e , e ff e c tiv e ly fi n i s h e d a n d t h a t ’s e ff e c t iv e ly h o w th e in v e s t i g a t io n
was

done.

Th e

S u p p ly

Chain

Management

processes

were

in v e s t i g a t e d , w h o w a s in v o lv e d , h o w th e y w e r e i n v o lv e d , r e p o r ts w e r e
p r e p a r e d a n d w h e r e i t w a s i d e n t i fi e d t h a t t h e r e w e r e a l le g a t i o n s b a s e d
o n t h a t e v id e n c e , th a t p o l it ic ia n s w e r e i n v o lv e d , f u r th e r s u p p l e m e n t a r y
r e p o r t s o r a ffi d a v it s w e r e p r e p a r e d t h a t w e r e th e n g iv e n t o th e
prosecutors.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o M r W h i t e y o u d e a l w it h t h e r e p o r ts t h a t

y o u p r e p a r e d o n p a r a g r a p h 5 6 p a g e 4 3 , c o u l d y o u p l e a s e b r i e fly e x p l a in
t o th e C h a ir w h ic h – w h a t e a c h o f t h e s e r e p o r ts d e a l t w i th j u s t i n h i g h le v e l t e r m s , w e ’l l g o i n to g r e a t e r d e t a i l i n d u e c o u r s e ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r a s I s a id b e f o r e t h e r e ’s t w o ty p e s o f – m a in ly tw o
ty p e s o f p r o d u c t s t h a t w e r e b e i n g p u r c h a s e d .

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S o t h e o n e is th e

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
O x y i n ta k a s e l f g e n e r a ti n g o x y g e n p l a n t s .

W h a t t h a t p la n t is C h a ir, is

e ffe c tiv e l y a p l a n t th a t h a d b e e n d e s ig n e d b y In t a k a i t ’s i n s t a l le d o n
s i te a t a h o s p it a l a n d t h e b e n e fi t i t h a s is t h a t i t g e n e r a t e s o x y g e n o n
s i te s o th e r e ’s n o n e e d f o r ta n k e r s o r c y li n d e r s t o b e t r u c k e d t o t h e
s i te , y o u e ff e c t iv e ly m a k e t h e o x y g e n o n th e s i te . S o th a t w a s – s o
t h o s e w e r e p u r c h a s e d i n K Z N a n d in t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e . Th e r e w a s
t h e n w a t e r p u r i f ic a ti o n p la n ts t h a t w e r e p u r c h a s e d b y th e D e p a r t m e n t o f
H e a lt h i n K Z N a n d i n t h e N o r th e r n C a p e a n d b y L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t in
K Z N a s w e l l a s b y s o m e m u n ic i p a l i ti e s in t h e N o r t h e r n C a p e a n d t h e n i n
10

a d d it i o n t o th a t t h e r e w a s a l s o p r o c u r e m e n t i n th e N o r th e r n C a p e o f 1 6
d i a l y s i s m a c h i n e s , a ls o fr o m I n t a k a , n o t m a d e b y I n t a k a o r u n d e r
lic e n s e fr o m t h e m , t h e y h a d b o u g h t t h e m fr o m a t h ir d p a r t y a n d t h e n
t h e r e a r e tw o a d d i t io n a l r e p o r ts w h ic h I r e fe r t o t h a t th e r e ’s th e
s u p p l e m e n t a r y r e p o r t t h a t r e l a t e s to th e M E C o f H e a l t h a t h e ti m e M s
P e g g y N k o n y e n i i n K Z N a s w e l l a s i n a n a ff id a v i t I s e t o u t th e
in v o lv e m e n t o f t h e M E C f o r Tr a d i t i o n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t i n
K Z N M r M i c h a e l M a b u y a k h u l u . C h a ir t h o s e r e p o r ts a r e a t ta c h e d a g a i n
t o th is a ffi d a v it , t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e s o f s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n t a ti o n ,
t h e r e ’s s o m e 3 0 fi l e s , h a v e b e e n m a d e a v a i la b le t o th e C o m m is s i o n i n

20

e l e c tr o n ic f o r m , s o a g a i n i n t h o s e r e p o r ts w e r e p o r t – d o c u m e n ts a r e
r e fe r r e d t o in t h e r i g h t h a n d c o l u m n o n e a c h p a g e , t h e A n n e x u r e s h a v e
b e e n p r o v i d e d i n e l e c tr o n ic f o r m t o t h e C o m m i s s io n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w y o u ’v e p r e p a r e d a d ia g r a m , i t is T S W 1 9
a n d C h a ir, i f y o u ’l l ju s t b e a r w i t h m e it ’s c o n t a i n e d in B u n d l e D – s o r r y
C h a ir Ex h ib i t R R 4 B u n d l e D a t p a g e 1 5 8 .

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M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir i t’s 1 9 5 8 .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Sorry I beg your pardon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y C h a ir w e n e e d th is d ia g r a m t o b e p u t o n
the overhead screen if you might bear with us.
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t r e m e m b e r th a t w h e n y o u s p e a k a w a y fr o m th e

p h o n e t h e tr a n s c r ib e r s w i ll h a v e a p r o b le m tr a n s c r ib i n g – ty p i n g w h a t
y o u w e r e s a y i n g , t h e r e w i ll b e a l o t o f i n a u d i b l e s , s o tr y a n d s p e a k
when you are closer to the phone – the mic.
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a r I a p o l o g is e I’ v e l o t m y a s s is t a n t f o r
t h e b u n d l e s s o – p e r h a p s y e s . S o r r y C h a ir i f y o u ’l l j u s t b e a r w i th m e t h a n k y o u C h a ir, I a p p r e c i a te th e i n d u lg e n c e . M r W h it e w i th r e fe r e n c e
t o t h is d i a g r a m c o u ld y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir w h a t y o u r
in v e s t i g a t io n e n t a i le d a n d w h a t i t r e v e a l e d ?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir w h a t I ’v e a tt e m p t e d t o d o in t h is d i a g r a m a t p a g e

1 5 9 8 w a s p r e p a r e d a t t h e ti m e th a t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s d o n e , s o m e
ten years ago.

W h a t t h is d i a g r a m s e t s o u t t o d o is t o e x p l a in th e

s ig n if ic a n t e v e n ts o r tr a n s a c t i o n s t h a t t o o k p l a c e r e l a ti n g t o t h e a l l e g e d
c r i m e s th a t h a p p e n e d i n K w a - Z u l u N a ta l . S o i t d o e s n ’ t d e a l w i th th e
20

N o r t h e r n C a p e w h ic h w a s , e ff e c t iv e ly a d i ff e r e n t s e t o f i n v e s ti g a ti n g
o ffic e r s , d i ff e r e n t s e t o f p r o s e c u t o r s . S o I w a s r e q u e s t e d to c o m m e n t
o n t h e m a t t e r s in K Z N s o I’ v e r e s tr ic t e d m y a ff id a v i t t o th a t a s w e ll a s
t h is d ia g r a m . S o C h a ir w h a t t h i s d i a g r a m s h o w s i s t h a t a t t h e c e n tr e o f
t h e d ia g r a m i s I n t a k a a n d fl o w i n g t o o r fr o m t h a t a r e v a r io u s a r r o w s i n
d i ff e r e n t c o l o u r s a n d b r i e fl y w h a t I’ m t r y in g t o s h o w in t h a t d i a g r a m

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C h a ir, i f o n e l o o k s a t t h e b o t t o m h a l f o f t h e d ia g r a m i t ’s t h e d e a li n g s
t h a t t o o k p la c e b e t w e e n I n t a k a a n d o n t h e b o t to m r i g h t t h e D e p a r t m e n t
o f H e a l t h i n K Z N . If o n e g o e s u p t o th e r i g h t- h a n d s i d e – t h e t o p r i g h t
o f t h a t d i a g r a m I th e n d e a l w i t h t h e t r a n s a c t io n s w i t h th e D e p a r t m e n t o f
Tr a d it i o n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t i n K Z N a s w e l l a s th e p a y m e n t
t h a t In t a k a m a d e v ia th e b a n k a c c o u n t o f K u b o n i a n d S h e z i a t to r n e y s o f
R 1 0 5 3 0 0 0 . 0 0 w h i c h D r S a v o i , i n h is a ffi d a v it s – a ffi d a v i t th a t h e
p r o v i d e d to th e p o l ic e d e s c r i b e d a s a d o n a ti o n to th e A N C a n d ju s t – I
t h e n tr a c k w h e r e th a t m o n e y fl o w e d v i a t h e A t t o r n e y ’s Tr u s t a c c o u n t
10

h o w i t w a s s p e n t o n p e r s o n a l e x p e n s e s o f M r Ts h a b a la l a , th e h e a d o f
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th in K Z N a n d s u b s e q u e n tly i n c a s h t o th e M E C
o f Tr a d i t io n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t M r M a b u y a k h u l u .

C h a ir

t h e n o n t h e l e f t o f t h a t p a g e I th e n a l s o d e ta il t w o p a y m e n ts t h a t w e r e
m a d e to a n e n t i ty c a ll e d R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts , t w o p a y m e n ts o f
R 5 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0 e a c h . R o w m o o r i n v e s t m e n t s i s a n e n t i ty – t h e d ir e c t o r o f
w h ic h is a g e n t le m a n b y th e n a m e o f L i n d o n M k h w a n a z i w h o a t t h e ti m e
w a s t h e b o y fr ie n d o f th e M E C o f H e a l th i n K Z N M s P e g g y N k o n y e n i . S o
C h a ir a n d w e ’l l c o m e t o a l l t h e d e t a i l , b u t e ffe c t iv e l y t h e r e w a s
p r o c u r e m e n t ir r e g u la r i ti e s , t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s w a s m a n i p u l a t e d to
20

t h e b e n e fi t o f I n t a k a i n b o t h th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l t h o n t w o in s t a n c e s
f o r t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e w a t e r p u r if ic a ti o n p l a n t s a s w e l l a s fo r th e
p u r c h a s e o f th e O x y i n ta k a p la n ts it w a s a ls o m a n i p u l a t e d in t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d it i o n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d a t th e
s a m e t i m e t h e M E C ’s f o r b o t h th o s e d e p a r t m e n t s o r p e o p l e li n k e d to
t h e m w e r e r e c e iv in g p a y m e n ts . C h a ir, I ’ m n o t s u r e i f M s W e n tz e l w a n t s

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m e t o g o i n to t h e d e ta ils b u t I c a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s h e w il l l e a d y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

Mr W h i t e c a n w e s t a r t fir s t a n d

r e m e m b e r in g th a t t h e C h a ir d o e s n ’ t k n o w a l l t h e d e t a i ls a n d w h a t e a c h
m a t t e r in v o lv e d s o w e n e e d to e x p l a i n t h e s e t h i n g s v e r y c a r e f u lly, c a n
y o u d e a l w it h t h e p r o c u r e m e n t i n t h e f ir s t i n s t a n c e th a t i n v o lv e d M r
Ts h a b a l a l a a n d t h e n w h e n w e ’v e d o n e t h a t , w e w il l t h e n a s a s e p a r a te
in q u ir y, lo o k a t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t t h a t in v o lv e d t h e M E C f o r H e a l t h M r
P e g g y N k o n y e n i , i s t h a t s u i t a b le ?
10

M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

O k a y s o c a n w e s t a r t n o w d e a li n g w i t h t h e

p r o c u r e m e n t t h a t Mr Ts h a b a l a l a w a s in v o l v e d w i t h a n d p e r h a p s w e c a n
s t a r t w i t h a m e m o r a n d u m d a t e d th e 9 t h o f M a y 2 0 0 5 , i t ’s A n n e x u r e
T S W 1 3 o n v o lu m e C C h a ir, p a g e 1 0 8 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u e x p la in e d th a t M s P e g g y N k o n y e n i w a s M E C f o r

H e a lt h a n d y o u e x p l a i n e d w h o M r L H M o k o e n a w a s , I th i n k y o u s a i d M r
M a b u y a k h u lu w a s M E C f o r Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a i r s is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R W H I T E : A n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: And Local Government.
20

M R W H I T E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s M r Ts h a b a l a l a ’s p o s i t io n ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir h e w a s H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t fo r t h e K w a - Z u l u N a t a l
P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t – s o r r y H e a d o f t h e F i n a n c e D e p a r t m e n t ,
Tr e a s u r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y ?

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
M R W H I T E : P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a n d S D D Ts h a b a l a l a th a t a p p e a r s t h e r e w a s
h is s p o u s e ?
MR

WHITE:

N o C h a ir t h a t’s M r Ts h a b a l a l a h i m s e l f , M r S i p h o

Ts h a b a l a l a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h a n d t h e n t h e B N O – th e in i ti a l s B N O i s t h e

wife?
M R W H I T E : T h a t ’s t h e w i fe C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
10

M R W H I T E : Yo u h a d a s e p a r a t e b u s i n e s s t h a t s h e h a d e n t e r e d i n t o o f
w h ic h G a s to n S a v o i – D r S a v o i w a s a ls o a D ir e c t o r o f.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y w e r e D i r e c t o r s o f a p a r ti c u l a r e n t it y S h i r o z

Medical?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o w e ’ r e n o w r e f e r r i n g to t h e m e m o r a n d u m i t
s t a r ts a t p a g e 1 0 8 8 o r 1 0 8 9 i t’s A n n e x u r e T S W 1 3 a n d i f I m i g h t r e f e r
y o u t o p a g e 111 6 … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t g i v e m e t h e p a g e n u m b e r s a g a in a n d i t’s R R 4 C ?
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja page number?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e d o c u m e n t C h a ir, s t a r ts a t p a g e 1 0 8 9
a n d p e r h a p s M r W h i te y o u c a n id e n ti fy th e d o c u m e n t , i t ’s a r e p o r t b y
y o u d a te d t h e 2 9 t h o f J u ly 2 0 11 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR WHITE:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, th a t ’s t h e r e p o r t t h a t I p r e p a r e d

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
b a s e d o n th e in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t h a d b e e n c o n d u c t e d i n t o t h e p u r c h a s e
o f 2 0 w a te r p u r i f ic a t i o n p l a n t s b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t
and

Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s

in

K w a - Zu l u

N a ta l .

So

that

e ff e c t iv e ly

s u m m a r i s e s th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s , w h o w a s i n v o l v e d , w h a t t h e y d i d ,
w h a t t h e y d i d in c o r r e c t ly d o w n t o t h e p a y m e n ts , t h e fl o w o f f u n d s , I
r e fe r to a n u m b e r o f a ff id a v i ts t h a t w e r e o b t a i n e d b y t h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g
o ffic e r s i n t h e c a s e .

C h a ir t h is in v e s t ig a ti o n w a s d i ff e r e n t t o t h e

P a n d a y i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t I r e f e r r e d t o p r e v io u s ly, in t h a t m y s e l f a s w e l l
a s s t a ff w o r k i n g f o r m e , a s s i s t e d th e p o li c e w i t h a c t u a l ly i n te r v i e w i n g
10

w i t n e s s e s a n d o b ta i n i n g s ta t e m e n ts .

So it was – there was more

in v o lv e m e n t i n th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n w h e r e a s t h e P a n d a y i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s
m o r e j u s t a n a n a ly s is o f d o c u m e n ts th a t w e r e p r o v id e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : C h a ir j u s t t o – t h e li n k in t o K Z N , Mr S i p h o Ts h a b a l a la t h e
h e a d o f t h e Pr o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y w a s o n e o f t h e fir s t p e o p l e t h a t m e t D r
S a v o i fr o m In t a k a . H e w a s i n tr o d u c e d t o h i m t h e r e w a s a tr i p t o S o u t h
A m e r i c a t o B r a z il a n d I t h in k t o o n e o t h e r c o u n tr y t h a t a m o n g s t o t h e r s
M r Ts h a b a l a la w e n t w i t h to s e e w h a t p r o d u c ts a n d s e r v ic e s I n t a k a c o u l d
p r o v i d e t o s e e t h e m in o p e r a ti o n i n B r a z il t h a t w a s a tr i p t h a t w a s p a id
20

f o r b y I n ta k a . F o l lo w in g th a t th e r e w a s t h e n … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u k n o w w h y i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n – it s h o u ld h a v e

b e e n p a i d fo r b y In t a k a in t e r m s o f Mr Ts h a b a la la w h y i t w a s n ’ t p a i d fo r
b y G o v e r n m e n t o r w a s t h a t o n e o f th e i s s u e s y o u h a d t o l o o k a t ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t w a s n ’t s o m e t h in g w e i n v e s ti g a te d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
M R W H I T E : I t a p p e a r e d t h a t t h e t r i p w a s a t t h e s u g g e s ti o n o f I n t a k a to
tr y a n d c o n v i n c e t h e p r o v in c i a l G o v e r n m e n t, th e s e a r e th e th in g s a n d
you should come and see them so that we can then take further what
w e c a n o ffe r y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : C h a r t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I f w e c a n r e tu r n t o t h e m e m o r a n d u m th a t I

w a s r e f e r r i n g t o i t ’s o n p a g e 111 6 C h a ir … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W a s th e r e s o m e t h in g y o u s t il l w a n t e d t o s a y Mr

White?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir, i t ’s fi n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t f in e ?
M R W H I T E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I f w e c a n r e f e r t o th e m e m o r a n d u m fr o m M r

Ts h a b a l a l a t o D r M a k i z i , d a t e d t h e 9 t h o f M a y 2 0 0 5 a p p e a r in g o n 111 6
a n d i f y o u c o u l d p le a s e e x p l a i n th a t a n d w h a t i t r e v e a l e d t o th e C h a ir,
M r W h i te .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e v is i t t o S o u th A m e r i c a t h e r e ’s
20

then

various

d o c u m e n ts

that

are

prepared,

many

of

w h ic h

Mr

Ts h a b a l a l a e i t h e r i n i t ia t e s o r is p a r t o f t h e p r e p a r a t io n o r o n e o f th e
s ig n a to r i e s to th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t a r e p r o p o s i n g t h e u s e o f I n ta k a f o r
v a r io u s – t h e s u p p l y o f O x y in t a k a b e i n g th e o x y g e n u n it s a n d th e
Wa t a k a b e in g th e w a t e r p u r i fic a ti o n u n i ts a n d th is m e m o r a n d u m is
w r i t t e n t o th e M E C a t th e ti m e D r N k e e z a n d i t ’s r e l a ti n g t o th e p r o p o s a l

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
t o s u p p ly g a s g e n e r a ti n g e q u ip m e n t a n d w a te r p u r i fi c a t io n t o th e
p r o v i n c e a n d I j u s t s ta t e i n t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t h e s t a t e s – in m y r e p o r t I
ju s t t a k e s o m e e x t r a c t s a n d h e s a y s , t h is b e i n g M r Ts h a b a l a la ,
“ P r o p o s a l h a v e b e e n r e c e i v e d fr o m a c o m p a n y in C a p e To w n t o
s u p p ly e q u ip m e n t f o r o n s i te g e n e r a ti o n o f g a s a s w e ll a s e q u i p m e n t
t h a t p u r i fi e s w a te r a t s o u r c e . T h e D e p a r t m e n t o f H e a l th is p il o ti n g th e
g a s g e n e r a t i n g e q u i p m e n t a t M u r c h is o n H o s p i t a l Tr a d e a n d In v e s t m e n t
K Z N h a s b e e n i n v o lv e d i n th e w a t e r p u r i fi c a t io n e q u i p m e n t f o r s o m e
ti m e ” ,
10

C h a ir t h e Tr a d e a n d In v e s t m e n t e n ti ty i n K Z N , th e i d e a w a s
t h e y w e r e t r y i n g t o c o n v i n c e In t a k a to s e t u p a m a n u f a c t u r i n g p la n t i n
K Z N , s o t o g e n e r a t e jo b s . T h a t n e v e r h a p p e n e d i n t h e e n d , i t ’s u s e d a s
o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s to a p p o in t In t a k a to p r o v i d e W a t a k a ’s , t h e w a te r
p u r i fi c a t io n

p la n ts

themselves anyway

but
they

Intaka

doesn’t

outsource

it to

m a n u fa c tu r e
a

th e

p la n ts

th ir d p a r t y a n d

th e

m a n u f a c t u r e r o f t h o s e p la n ts w a s b a s e d i n C a p e To w n b e c a u s e th a t ’s
w h e r e I n t a k a w a s b a s e d b u t t h i s m e m o r a n d u m C h a ir, w h i c h is t h e f ir s t
in it i a t i o n o f t h e a p p o i n t m e n t , i t’s e ffe c tiv e l y w h e r e i t s t a r t e d to a p p o i n t
I n t a k a b y t h e Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t , M r Ts h a b a l a la
20

s t a te s , a n d I ’l l r e a d f r o m p a r a g r a p h 9 . 3 3 t h ir d li n e ,
“ G o in g t h r o u g h c o m m u n i ti e s d u r in g t h e p r e - b u d g e t r o a d s h o w s
w e e x p e r i e n c e … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y t h i s is n o t a m e m o w r it t e n b y M r Ts h a b a la l a
it ’s y o u r s u m m a r y o f w h a t t h a t m e m o s a i d .
M R W H I T E : I t ’s e x tr a c ts o f i t C h a ir, s o s o m e o f i t i s d ir e c t q u o t e s a n d

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
s o m e o f i t is a s u m m a r y. S o i f i ts i n i t a l ic s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o in o t h e r w o r d s i t’s y o u r c o m m e n t o n th a t

memo.
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t ’s n o t t h e m e m o i ts e l f .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir j u s t – i f t h e r e ’s a n e e d f o r t h e d o c u m e n t s th a t

r e fe r e n c e i n t h e r ig h t- h a n d c o l u m n D 1 w o u l d b e t h e e l e c tr o n i c v e r s i o n
10

t h e C o m m is s i o n h a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
MR WHITE:

S o i n t h a t m e m o r a n d u m b y M r Ts h a b a la la I’ v e q u o te d a n

e x tr a c t i n p a r a g r a p h 9 . 3 3 w h e r e h e s t a t e s ,
“ G o in g t h r o u g h c o m m u n i ti e s d u r in g t h e p r e - b u d g e t r o a d s h o w s
w e e x p e r i e n c e d f ir s t- h a n d t h a t c o m m u n i t ie s s t ill n e e d w a t e r
d e s p e r a t e ly w h e r e a s w e a r e u n d e r g o in g a n e x e r c is e w i t h
U m g e n i W a te r o n t h e l o n g - t e r m s o lu t io n o f w a t e r p r o v is io n i n g
in t h e P r o v i n c e w e s t il l h a v e t o c o n t e n d w i t h t h e f a c t t h a t o u r
c o m m u n i ty s ti ll d o n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o c l e a n w a t e r ” .
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s d i d h e m a k e i n th e
le t t e r ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I q u o te t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s o n t h e f o l lo w i n g p a g e ,
p a g e 111 7 , h e m a d e th e fo ll o w i n g r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s ,
“ I t is r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t w e e n c o u r a g e t h e M E C f o r H e a l t h
a n d t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t to f i n a li s e t h e i n s t a l l a t i o n o f t h e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
O x y i n ta k a

at

M u r c h is o n

and

to

c o n s id e r

seriously

th e

a c q u is i ti o n o f f u r th e r e q u ip m e n t t o o p t i m i s e o n th e b e n e f i t o f
the

equipment.

R 2 2 m i ll io n

be

I t is

recommended

a l lo c a t e d

fr o m

the

that an

P o v e r ty

amount of

A ll e v ia t io n

to

p r o v i d e th e w a te r g e n e r a t in g e q u ip m e n t t o a ll t h e m u n i c i p a l
d is t r ic ts .

I t is a ls o r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t n e g o t i a t i o n s a r e

c o m m e n c e d w i th t h e b e n e fi t in g m u n ic ip a l it ie s o n th e r u n n i n g
cost of the equipment”.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y I t h i n k w e ’ ll h a v e t o s t o p t h e r e f o r t h e l u n c h

b r e a k , w e ’ ll t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k n o w a n d w e ’l l r e s u m e a t 2 o ’c l o c k .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M r W h i te p r i o r t o th e l u n c h
a d j o u r n m e n t y o u d e a l t w i th t h e m e m o r a n d u m d a te d th e 9 M a y 2 0 0 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C a n y o u s w i tc h o n y o u r m ic r o p h o n e . T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : F r o m M r S h a b a l a l a a t b u n d le C p a g e 111 6 , i s
that correct?
M R W H I T E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

20

ADV

SUSAN

WENTZEL:

Now

a ft e r

that

was

there

further

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e tw e e n M r S h a b a la la a n d M r S a v o i ?
M R W H I T E : T h e r e w a s C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d o y o u d e a l w i t h t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e in
your report?
M R W H I T E : I d o C h a ir. I s e t o u t v a r i o u s i n te r a c t io n s w it h t h e m o n t h e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
p a g e s th a t – o n t h e n e x t f e w p a g e s t h a t f o l lo w C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h e n t h e n e x t s i g n i fic a n t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e

a p p e a r s a t p a g e 11 2 5 . I f w e c o u l d g o t o t h a t ? A n d th is is a l e t t e r fr o m
M r S h a b a la l a t o G u m b i- M a s il e l a d a te d t h e 3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 0 5 .

Is t h a t

correct?
M R W H I T E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t. I – C h a ir t h a t i s w h e r e I r e f e r t o t h a t l e t te r
a n d th e n c o p y s o m e e x t r a c ts o f t h a t i n t o m y r e p o r t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h o w a s G u m b i- M a s il e le ?
MR WHITE:
10

C h a ir s h e w a s t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o f t h e K w a Z u l u

N a t a l L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s a t th e ti m e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C o u ld y o u p le a s e t e l l th e C h a ir a b o u t t h i s

le t t e r a n d w h a t i t s ta t e d ?
M R W H I T E:

S o C h a ir th is a g a i n – a p p e a r s t o i n d ic a te th a t t h e – i f

t h e r e w a s a n y u r g e n c y in t h is p r o c e s s t o p r o c u r e th e s e w a t e r
p u r i fi c a t io n p l a n ts fr o m In t a k a t h e o n l y u r g e n c y w a s t o s p e n d t h e
m o n e y r a t h e r t h a n a n u r g e n c y f o r th e c o m m u n it y t h a t n e e d e d c le a n
d r i n k i n g w a t e r. A n d I s a y t h a t C h a ir b e c a u s e – a n d I q u o t e a n e x tr a c t
o u t o f th a t le t t e r w h i c h i s fr o m Mr S h a b a la a t p a r a g r a p h 9 . 0 5 3 a t t h e
b o t t o m o f th a t p a g e a n d i t r e a d s i n th e – s t a r ti n g a t th e e n d o f th e t h ir d
20

li n e :
“ A s w e a r e n o w a p p r o a c h in g m id - y e a r i n t h e f i n a n c ia l
y e a r th e r e is a c o n s i d e r a b le u r g e n c y t o a l lo c a t e a n d
e x p e n d th e f u n d s i n q u e s ti o n l e s t w e a r e l e f t w i th
u n s p e n t f u n d s a t th e f i n a n c ia l y e a r e n d .

A s th is

p r o j e c t r e q u ir e s c a r e f u l in v e s t i g a t io n a n e x t e n s iv e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
c o n s u l t a ti o n

w i t h t h e M u n ic i p a l i ti e s i t w o u l d b e

a p p r e c ia t e d i f y o u w o u l d u p d a t e th is o ffi c e a s a
m a t t e r o f u r g e n c y a s t h e p r o g r e s s t o d a te i f a n y. ”
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e p r o c e s s w i t h w h a t d id t h a t r e fe r ?
MR WHITE:

C h a ir t h a t is p r o g r e s s w i t h id e n t i fy i n g t h e M u n ic i p a li t ie s

t h a t w o u l d r e q u i r e t h e s e w a t e r p u r i f ic a ti o n p l a n t s a n d i n s t a l l a t i o n
t h e r e o f . B e c a u s e t h e is s u e C h a ir t h e r e w a s q u i te a h is t o r y t o t h is b u t
w h e n i t c a m e to i n s t a l li n g t h e m o n e n e e d e d to i d e n t i fy a n a p p r o p r ia t e
s i te w i t h a s o u r c e o f w a te r, w i t h a l o c a l m u n ic ip a li ty th a t w a s p r e p a r e d
10

t o p a y f o r th e m a in t e n a n c e a s w e ll a s t h e c h e m i c a ls t o r u n th e p l a n t.
S o t h e r e a n u m b e r o f th i n g s t h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e . I t w a s n o t ju s t a
m a t t e r o f d u m p in g s o m e t h in g s o m e w h e r e a n d i t w o u ld j u s t w o r k .

So

y o u n e e d e d b u y - i n fr o m u p to 2 0 m u n ic i p a l it ie s t o t a k e t h e s e p l a n t s a n d
h a v e t h e m i n s t a l le d i n t h e ir a r e a s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o u l t i m a te ly j u s t t o e x p l a in t h a t h o w m a n y o f
t h e s e w a t e r p u r i fi c a t io n p l a n t s w e r e b o u g h t ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir 2 0 w e r e b o u g h t i n t h e e n d a n d I w i ll c o m e to t h e
d e t a i l la t e r. B u t i n s o m e o f t h e m t h r e e y e a r s la t e r t h e y s ti ll h a d n o t
b e e n i n s t a l le d . B u t t h e y b o u g h t o n t h e b a s is t h a t i t w a s a n e m e r g e n c y.
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h y w a s e m e r g e n c y u ti li s e d – t h e ?
M R W H I T E: C h a ir m y v i e w t h e s o le p u r p o s e o f th a t w a s to a v o i d g o i n g
o u t o n a c o m p e ti ti v e t e n d e r p r o c e s s . T h e r e c o u ld b e n o o t h e r r e a s o n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e n i f w e c o u l d g o t o p a g e 11 2 7 .
M R W H I T E: S o C h a ir i n t h a t – o n t h a t p a g e i n t h e m i d d l e I r e f e r t o t h e
m e e ti n g s o f th e in t e r - d e p a r t m e n ta l t a s k t e a m t h a t w e r e h e l d i n

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S e p te m b e r a n d O c t o b e r o f 2 0 0 5 . C h a ir b e c a u s e t h i s – t h e i n s t a l la t io n
o f th e s e

w a te r p u r i fic a ti o n

p l a n ts

n o w i n v o lv e d

more

than

one

d e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y w a s p u s h i n g o r m o ti v a t in g t h e
id e a . T h e y w e r e a r r a n g in g f o r t h e m o n e y to b e r e a l l o c a t e d fr o m th e
p o v e r t y a l le v i a ti o n fu n d t o th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t . L o c a l
G o v e r n m e n t n e e d e d t o i d e n t i fy t h e c o m m u n i ti e s w h e r e t h e y w o u l d b e
in s t a l l e d a n d t h e n E c o n o m i c D e v e l o p m e n t w a s a l s o i n v o lv e d b e c a u s e
t h e r e w a s a n in i ti a l t h o u g h t t h a t I n ta k a w o u ld s e t u p a c o n s tr u c ti o n
f a c i li ty in K Z N to b u i ld th e s e p l a n t s – a m a n u f a c tu r i n g f a c il it y. S o a s a
10

r e s u l t t h e y s e t u p t h is t a s k te a m o f th e t h r e e d e p a r t m e n t s to tr y a n d
m a n a g e a n d s o r t o u t a ll t h e lo g is tic s o f p r o c u r i n g t h e s e .

And again

C h a ir I j u s t w a n t t o r e fe r a n d i n t h e f o u r th li n e o f – o f p a r a g r a p h 9 . 0 5 8 I
s t a te :
“ I t m u s t b e n o te d t h a t e v e n a t th is e a r ly s t a g e t h e
o n ly e m e r g e n c y s e e m e d t o b e th e n e e d r e g a r d in g t h e
f u n d i n g f o r th is p r o j e c t w i th t h e f o ll o w i n g b e i n g
s t a te d i n t h e m i n u t e s . Th e r e w a s e x tr e m e u r g e n c y t o
fi n a l is e t h is p r o j e c t g iv e n th e f a c t th a t s ix m o n t h s o f
t h e f in a n c ia l y e a r h a d a l r e a d y la p s e d . T h e a d ju s te d
20

e s ti m a t e w a s j u s t a r o u n d t h e c o r n e r a n d a d e c is io n
r e g a r d in g th e fu n d i n g n e e d e d t o b e m a d e s o o n . ”
S o C h a i r n o t a n u r g e n c y o r a n e m e r g e n c y th a t t h e c o m m u n i t ie s d o n o t
h a v e c l e a n d r i n k i n g w a t e r b u t r a t h e r t h e n e e d t o s p e n d t h e m o n e y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e n i f w e c o u l d g o t o p a g e 11 3 3 ? A n d th e
jo in t m e m o r a n d u m d a t e d th e 1 0 O c to b e r 2 0 0 5 r e f e r r e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h

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9 .0 6 8 .
M R W H I T E: C h a ir ju s t fo r t h e r e c o r d i f I c o u l d m a k e t w o c o r r e c ti o n s t o
that paragraph?

I n t h a t p a r a g r a p h in t h e t h ir d l in e I r e f e r t o th e

M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e a n d t h e M i n is te r o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t .

C h a ir i t

s h o u l d b e t h e M E C in b o t h i n s t a n c e s i t s h o u l d n o t b e t h e Mi n is te r.
C h a ir th a t is a m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s i s s u e d j o i n tly b y Mr S h a b a l a l a t h e
H e a d o f t h e Pr o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y, M s G u m b i- M a s i le l a th e H e a d o f L o c a l
G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a i r s a n d I t h i n k i t i s M s P h a p h a m a t h e
a c ti n g H e a d o f E c o n o m ic D e v e l o p m e n t .
10

Th a t m e m o r a n d u m w a s

a d d r e s s e d t o D o c t o r M k h iz e a s th e M E C o f F in a n c e a n d E c o n o m i c
Development and Mr Mabuyakhulu as the MEC for Local Government
a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s . T h a t m e m o r a n d u m is t it l e Pr o p o s a l to a ll o c a te
R 4 3 m il li o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a – I a m s o r r y M r W h i t e .
M R W H I T E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t M a b u y a k h u lu .

I t s o u n d e d l ik e y o u w e r e s a y i n g

M a b a y a k h u lu . I m a y h a v e m i s h e a r d y o u .
M R W H I T E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir I w il l tr y a n d g e t …
CHAIRPERSON: Mabuya – buyakhulu.
20

M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t g o in g fo r w a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s h o u l d n o t b e d i ff ic u l t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
MR WHITE:

I a m f r o m K Z N C h a ir s o I h a v e g o t n o e x c u s e .

Th e

p r o p o s a l t o a ll o c a te R 4 7 – s o r r y R 4 3 m il li o n fr o m t h e P o v e r ty
A ll e v i a t i o n F u n d to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i t io n a l

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A ff a ir s to p u r c h a s e I t a k a w a t e r p u r i fic a ti o n p l a n t s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O k a y i f y o u c a n s t o p h e r e . Th e m e m o r a n d u m
t h a t w e s p o k e a b o u t b e fo r e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t r e f e r r e d t o a fi g u r e
o f R 2 2 m i ll io n . H o w h a v e w e n o w g o t t o a fi g u r e o f R 4 3 m il li o n ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i n t h e i n t e r v e n in g p e r i o d t h e r e w a s a q u o t a ti o n th a t
h a d b e e n s e n t t o Mr S h a b a la la .

I t s a i d i t w o u l d c o s t R 4 3 m i lli o n a n d

o th e r t h a n th a t t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n f o r t h e i n c r e a s e i n th e a m o u n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e i n i t ia l – w a s t h e r e a n in i ti a l a m o u n t w h ic h w a s

le s s t h a n R 4 3 m i ll io n ?
10

M R W H I T E : I t w a s 2 2 C h a ir a n d I r e fe r t o it in o n e o f t h o s e p r e v i o u s …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, no I think I remember I saw that. Ja
MR WHITE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u te s ti fi e d a b o u t t h a t .
M R W H I T E : S o t h e y h a v e j u s t in c r e a s e d t h e a m o u n t n o w. N o w it is a t
4 3 . C h a ir i t u l t i m a te ly e n d s u p a t 4 4 . 5 p lu s tr a n s p o r t o f 5 . 8 m il li o n . S o
it ju s t s t e a d il y i n c r e a s e s o v e r t h e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it is n e v e r e x p l a in e d h o w i t i n c r e a s e d ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.

20

M R W H I T E : B u t C h a ir j u s t to p u t i t i n to c o n te x t . T h e c o s t a c c o r d i n g t o
t h e m a n u f a c t u r e r o f th e W a t a k a s s o t h e e n t i ty e x t e r n a l t o I n t a k a t h a t
m a n u f a c t u r e s t h e m s a i d th e d e l iv e r e d c o s t w o u l d b e R 7 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 e a c h .
H e r e t h e y b o u g h t 2 0 fo r R 4 4 5 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 e a c h s o R 2 .2 m il li o n e a c h p l u s
t h e r e w a s a fu r t h e r R 5 . 9 m il li o n tr a n s p o r t f o r th e 2 0 .

So they

e ffe c tiv e l y p a id R 5 0 m i ll i o n c l o s e to R 2 . 5 m il li o n e a c h a n d th e c o s t

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p r i c e t o I n t a k a is R 7 5 0 0 0 0 .0 0 d e li v e r e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I f y o u c a n t h e n d e a l f u r t h e r
w i t h t h is m e m o r a n d u m o f th e 1 0 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 5 ?
M R W H I T E:

S o C h a ir t h is m e m o r a n d u m e ff e c ti v e ly s u m m a r is e s w h a t

t h e d e p a r t m e n t s w il l d o t h a t a r e g o i n g t o – t o m a k e t h is p r o c u r e m e n t
happen and the processes.

S o t h e e n t i ti e s i d e n t if i e d a s I n t a k a

I n v e s t m e n t s a n d t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 2 o n t h a t p a g e , 11 3 3 ,
“The

Department

of

Local

Government

and

Tr a d it i o n a l A ff a ir s m a d e a n u m b e r o f c o m m e n t s
10

in c l u d i n g

and

then

I

quote

Chair

–

a c c e p ti n g

r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r t h e p r o j e c t . C o n d u c ti n g p r e l i mi n a r y
in v e s t i g a t io n s .

C o m p il i n g a b u s i n e s s p la n a n d t h e n

i m p o r t a n tly o b ta i n i n g w a i v e r o f t e n d e r r e q u ir e m e n t s
a p p r o v a l fr o m t h e C e n tr a l P r o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e
w i t h t h e a s s is ta n c e o f Tr e a s u r y.

E n t e r in g in t o a

c o n tr a c t w i t h t h e s u p p l i e r t o p u r c h a s e 2 0 p l a n t s a t a
p r i c e o f o r i g i n a l q u o t a ti o n a n d c o m p i li n g m e m o r a n d a
o f a g r e e m e n t s w i th d is tr ic t m u n ic i p a li t ie s p r e p a r e d t o
a c c e p t p la n ts . ”
20

S o C h a i r o n e o f t h e – t h e k e y t h i n g s t h e y n e e d e d to d o w a s t o o b t a i n a
w a iv e r o f t h e te n d e r r e q u ir e m e n ts w i t h th e a s s is t a n c e o f th e P r o v i n c ia l
Tr e a s u r y o f w h ic h M r S h a b a l a l a w a s t h e h e a d o f a n d I w il l s h o w y o u
u l ti m a t e ly h a d a s i g n i f ic a n t r o l e in o b t a in in g t h a t w a iv e r. A n d th e n i f w e
g o t o t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e w h a t P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y m a d e t w o
c o m m i t m e n ts to e x p e d i t e t h e p r o j e c t .

T h e fi r s t o n e i s tr a n s fe r r i n g a n

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a m o u n t o f R 4 3 m ill i o n fr o m th e P o v e r t y A ll e v i a ti o n F u n d t o L o c a l
G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s i n t h e a d j u s t m e n t e s t i m a t e s f o r t h e
2 0 0 5 /2 0 0 6 f i n a n c i a l y e a r s u b je c t t o a n a p p r o v e d b u s i n e s s p l a n .

And

t h e n t h e s e c o n d p o in t . E n s u r i n g t h a t L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l
A ff a ir s o b t a i n s c e n tr a l p r o c u r e m e n t c o m m i t te e a p p r o v a l f o r w a iv e r o f
tender procedures.

C h a ir ju s t a t t h e ti m e in K Z N th e r e w a s a – a ll

t e n d e r s w e r e a p p r o v e d r e g a r d l e s s o f w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t t h e y w e r e b y a
c e n tr a l p r o c u r e m e n t c o m m i t t e e .

Each department could not approve

t h e a c c e p ta n c e o f a te n d e r i t w e n t t o t h is c o m m i t t e e w h i c h w a s c h a ir e d
10

by Mr Shabalala.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o a m I u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u c o r r e c tl y t h a t h e

w a s g o i n g t o c h a ir a c o m m i t t e e t h a t w a s g o in g t o – w a s a s k e d t o
a p p r o v e a w a iv e r o f t e n d e r r e q u ir e m e n ts i n r e s p e c t o f a te n d e r th a t h e
h a d i n tr o d u c e d t o th e d e p a r t m e n t a n d i n r e s p e c t o f w h i c h h e h a d
tr a v e l le d o v e r s e a s w i th M r S a v o i ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i s t h e p o s i ti o n n o t – s h o u l d n o t th a t – t h e r e w a s
going to be no tender?
M R W H I T E : J a b u t C h a ir th e r e n e e d e d to b e a w a iv e r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja they had…
MR WHITE: So – so …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e w a iv e r j a .
MR WHITE:

S o t h e w a iv e r g o e s t o t h e t e n d e r c o m m i t t e e to a p p r o v e

t h a t t h e r e is n o r e q u ir e m e n t to h a v e a n e x t e r n a l – t h ir d p a r ti e s q u o t e
for it.

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir y o u a r e c o r r e c t . T h e – my u s e o f
t h e w o r d t e n d e r in t h a t i n s ta n c e w a s – w a s m is u s e d . T h a n k y o u . C o u l d
w e t h e n – s o t h is is h a p p e n i n g n o w o n t h e 1 0 O c to b e r 2 0 0 5 , i s t h a t
correct?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f w e c o u ld t h e n g o t o p a g e 11 3 8 .
M R W H I T E:

S o C h a i r a t t h e to p o f t h a t p a g e i n p a r a g r a p h 9 .0 7 7 I

s u m m a r i s e – i n f a c t I q u o t e fr o m a n e m a i l t h a t w a s s e n t b y M r
10

S h a b a la l a to D o c t o r S a v o i o f I n t a k a o n t h e 3 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 5 . C h a ir in
t h e s e – t h i s c a m e fr o m t h e e le c t r o n i c r e c o r d s o f In t a k e t h a t h a d b e e n
s e i z e d b y t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o li c e S e r v i c e . S o th e y s e iz e d , th e y m a d e
images of computers and then they provided it to us for further
a n a ly s is . A n d th is w a s o n e t h e e m a i ls i d e n ti fi e d . It is t i tl e d In t a k a a n d
t h e n H o ll a A m i g o .
“Thank you for the email I have received it.

Thank

y o u a ls o f o r t h e … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I a m lo o k – i t l o o k s l ik e I a m l o o k i n g a t –
a m I l o o k i n g a t t h e r ig h t p l a c e 9 . 0 7 7 t h e p a r a g r a p h ?
20

M R W H I T E: C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d t h e n t h e n u m b e r 1 b e l o w t h a t , t h e s u b
1.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y a l r i g h t .
MR WHITE:

S o I a m r e f e r r i n g t o a n e m a i l fr o m S h a b a l a l a t o D o c t o r

S a v o i d a te d th e 3 N o v e m b e r 2 0 0 5 . A n d t h e c o n t e n t s o f th a t e m a i l r e a d :
“ W a t a k a , H o ll a A m i g o t h a n k y o u f o r t h e e m a il I h a v e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
r e c e i v e d i t . T h a n k y o u a l s o fo r th e t ie i t is b r ig h t a n d
lo v e ly.

I wish to ensure you that the province is

r e a l ly d o in g i ts b e s t to e n s u r e t h a t b y t h e e n d o f t h e
y e a r th e r e is r e a l p r o g r e s s o n t h is is s u e . ”
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h is i f y o u j u s t – fo r th e t i m e l in e t h i s i s
a p p r o x i m a te ly w e e k s a f te r t h e m e m o r a n d u m w a s a d d r e s s e d r e q u e s te d a
w a iv e r o f t h e t e n d e r r e q u ir e m e n t s ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a i r a n d i t is n o t – i t i s j u s t n o t t h e ty p e o f e m a il
y o u w o u ld b e e x p e c t i n g f r o m a H e a d o f Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y to a
10

p r o s p e c t iv e s u p p l i e r.

Th e r e w a s a r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n th e t w o t h a t

w a s m u c h c lo s e r t h a n o n e w o u l d n o r m a ll y e x p e c t f r o m a n o ffic i a l i n t h is
s i tu a ti o n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h e n i f y o u c a n g iv e …
CHAIRPERSON:

J a w e ll I s e e t h a t i t s a y s H o l l a A m i g o .

I think that

s o m e o f u s w i ll u n d e r s t a n d t h a t l a n g u a g e i n a c e r t a i n w a y e s p e c i a l ly
c e r t a i n l y i n th e t o w n s h ip s t h e y w i ll u n d e r s t a n d i t . O k a y a lr i g h t. T h a n k
you.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C o u ld y o u t h e n d e a l – s t il l
o n p a g e 11 3 8 w i t h th e s u b m i s s i o n f r o m G u m b i - M a s il e l a t o th e C e n tr a l
20

Procurement Committee dated the 16 November 2005?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir e v e n a l t h o u g h a l l t h e s e d e c i s i o n s h a d b e e n m a d e
t h e r e w a s t h e n s ti ll a n e e d f o r w a n t o f a b e t t e r – b e t t e r w o r d s t o t ic k
t h e b o x e s t o s a y i t h a s g o n e t o t h e C e n tr a l Pr o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e a n d
t h e y h a v e d e c i d e d t h a t t h e r e is n o n e e d to g o o u t to t e n d e r.
e ffe c tiv e l y g r a n t th e t e n d e r w a iv e r.

So

Th e f o r m a li ti e s h a d t o b e – t o b e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
f o ll o w e d t h r o u g h . C h a ir t h is s u b m is s i o n w h ic h c a m e f r o m t h e H e a d o f
L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s i t i s t o r e q u e s t th e w a iv e r f o r
t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e w a t e r p u r i fic a ti o n p l a n ts a n d t h e n r e a d i n g fr o m th e
fi f t h li n e d o w n a q u o t e fr o m t h e m e m o r a n d u m :
“ T h e e n t ir e p r o j e c t c a n th e r e fo r e b e r e g a r d e d a s a
p i lo t p r o je c t w i t h m a j o r g r o w t h p o t e n t ia l . A s a r e s u l t
e s t a b li s h in g

a

m a n u f a c t u r in g

plant

in

KZN

jo b

c r e a ti o n a n d s k i ll s t r a n s f e r s . ”
C h a ir t h e n I g o o n t o s a y :
10

“ T h e w r i te r d o e s n o t i n c lu d e r e l e v a n t d e l e g a ti o n
a p p lic a b l e to t h e w a iv e r b u t c o n c l u d e s i t is s u b m i t t e d
t h a t th e w a iv e r o f te n d e r a n d t h e p l a c i n g o f a n o r d e r
u p o n M e s s r s In t a k a In v e s t m e n ts is th e o n ly a v e n u e
by

w h ic h

payment

the

equipment

e ff e c t e d

w i th i n

can
th e

be

procured

t i m e fr a m e

of

and
t h is

fi n a n c i a l y e a r. ”
C h a ir th e r e is a b s o l u t e ly n o m o t iv a ti o n a s t o w h y th is is u r g e n t o r a n
e m e r g e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m j u s t t h i n k in g a b o u t t h i s w a iv e r i s s u e . I – I
20

h a d l a s t y e a r a n u m b e r o f w i t n e s s e s p a r t ic u l a r l y fr o m Tr a n s n e t w h e r e
t h e r e w e r e i s s u e s a b o u t te n d e r p r o c e d u r e s t h a t h a d n o t b e e n f o l lo w e d .
A n d th e r e w a s a l o t o f e v id e n c e a b o u t e x c e p ti o n s w h e n p r o c e d u r e s d o
n o t h a v e t o b e f o l l o w e d . O n e o f t h e m I th in k is t h a t if t h e p r o d u c t y o u
a r e l o o k in g f o r o r th e s e r v i c e o r t h e g o o d s a n d t h e r e i s o n ly o n e
s u p p li e r f o r t h a t p r o d u c t i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y. A n d m y q u e r y w a s a l w a y s

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w h a t is w r o n g w i th i n v i ti n g a n y b o d y w h o c a n p r o v i d e t h a t b e c a u s e i f
t h a t s u p p li e r is th e o n l y o n e th e n i t w ill b e t h e o n ly o n e w h ic h w i ll
r e s p o n d to t h e in v i t a t i o n . B u t ju s t i n c a s e th e r e is s o m e b o d y e ls e t h a t
y o u d o n o t k n o w a b o u t w h o c a n p r o v id e t h e n th e y c a n c o m e u p a n d th a t
is – t h a t i s – t h a t s h o u ld b e g o o d fo r y o u a s a g o v e r n m e n t e n t i ty. B u t
t h e q u e s t i o n t h a t a r i s e s is w h e t h e r th is w a s a s i t u a t io n w h e r e In t a k a
w a s t h e o n ly e n ti ty t h a t c o u l d s u p p l y t h is b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e p e r s o n
w h o is w r i t in g t h e r e s e e m s t o s u g g e s t th a t a s a b a s is f o r s e e k i n g a
w a iv e r.
10

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir i f o n e r e a d s th is c a r e fu ll y t h e y d o n o t a c tu a lly –
n o w h e r e d o t h e y s a y t h is – th e y a r e t h e s o l e s u p p l i e r o f t h is p r o d u c t .
W h a t t h e y in a r o u n d a b o u t w a y a r e tr y in g t o g e t to is t o s a y t h a t I n t a k a
s a y s t h e y w il l b u il d a m a n u f a c t u r in g p l a n t in K Z N i f y o u o r d e r th e s e a s
a f ir s t s t e p a n d t h e n o r d e r f u r t h e r fr o m u s i n t h e f u t u r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I th in k I w a s l o o k i n g a t t h a t la s t s e n te n c e .

says:
“ I t is s u b m i t t e d th a t w a i v e r o f t e n d e r a n d t h e p l a c in g
o f a n o r d e r u p o n M e s s r s I n t a k a I n v e s t m e n t is t h e
o n ly
20

avenue

by

which

th e

equipment

can

be

procured.”
M R W H I T E : C h a ir b u t …
CHAIRPERSON:
“ A n d p a y m e n t e ff e c te d w i t h i n th e ti m e fr a m e o f t h i s
fi n a n c i a l y e a r. ”
M R W H I T E : C h a ir th e …

Page 107 of 158

It

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k I w a s l o o k – I w a s f o c u s s in g o n th e o n ly w a y in
w h ic h th e p l a n t c a n b e p r o c u r e d .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir th e p r o b le m is t h e w o r d a n d . B e c a u s e a n d p a id f o r
w i t h i n th e fi n a n c i a l y e a r. S o if t h e y w e n t o u t t o te n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e …
M R W H I T E : T h e y m a y n o t h a v e b e e n a b l e t o p a y fo r i t n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t th e q u e s t i o n I a m a s k in g is , w h e th e r t h is p la n t
c o u l d b e o b ta i n e d a n y w h e r e o t h e r t h a n t h r o u g h In t a k a a s a m a t te r o f
f a c t?
10

M R W H I T E: C h a ir a s a m a t te r o f f a c t t h e r e w e r e s i m i la r p r o d u c ts t h a t
c o u l d b e m a d e – th a t c o u l d b e p u r c h a s e d .
CHAIRPERSON: That could be?
M R W H I T E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h c o u l d d o th e j o b j u s t a s w e l l ?
M R W H I T E : T h e y a r e n o t e x a c t ly t h e – th e y a r e n o t e x a c tly t h e s a m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : B u t t h e y a r e s i m il a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . B u t t h e y c o u ld – t h e y d o t h e s a m e j o b ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a i r i t is p u r i fy i n g w a te r C h a ir i t is n o t a …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: It is not a unique
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : T h in g t h a t th e y d o i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a s a m a t te r o f f a c t i t w o u l d n o t b e – i t w o u l d n o t
h a v e b e e n tr u e t o s a y I n t a k a w a s th e o n ly o n e w h o – w h ic h p r o v i d e d a

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
p l a n t t h a t w o u ld d o t h e k i n d o f j o b t h a t w o u l d b e u s e d fo r t h e p u r p o s e
f o r w h i c h t h i s o n e w a s r e q u ir e d .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : I n ta k a is n o t a s o l e s u p p l i e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w a s n o t a s o l e s u p p l ie r.
M R W H I T E : T h e r e a r e o t h e r e n ti t ie s a n d w e d id s p e a k t o s o m e o t h e r s
in

the

process

o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n

tr y in g

to work

out what a

c o m p a r a tiv e p r i c i n g w o u l d b e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE: So that is why I can say with – as a matter of fact there is
s o m e s i m il a r p r o d u c ts o u t t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y t h a t is h e l p f u l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d I n t a k a m a n u f a c tu r e t h e s e p l a n ts ?
M R W H I T E:

N o C h a ir t h e y w e r e m a n u f a c t u r e d o n t h e ir b e h a l f b y a

m a n u f a c t u r e r i n C a p e To w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o t h e r e i s a m a n – t h e r e w a s a m a n u f a c t u r e r in
C a p e To w n ?
M R W H I T E:
20

T h a t – t h a t – t h e m a n u f a c t u r e r in C a p e To w n a c t u a ll y

m a d e s ta in l e s s s t e e l v a ts fo r t h e w i n e in d u s tr y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d e ff e c t iv e l y t h e y u s e d s t a in le s s s t e e l t a n k s w i t h s o m e
p u m p s a n d a f il t e r i n g p r o c e s s t h a t i s a t t a c h e d to th e s t a i n l e s s s t e e l
tank.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
MR WHITE:

S o t h e y u s e d – t h e y g a v e t h e d e s ig n t o t h e m t o

m a n u f a c t u r e fo r I n ta k a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

A n d j u s t t o d i g r e s s p u r s u a n t t o th e

C h a ir ’s p o i n t a b o u t b e i n g t h e o n ly p e o p l e w h o c o u l d m a n u f a c t u r e th e s e
p l a n t s . I n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s th e – d id i t e v e r o c c u r
t h a t i t w a s o n ly I n t a k a t h a t m e t t h e b i d s p e c i f ic a ti o n s a n d h o w d i d th a t
o c c u r ? A n d w e w il l d e a l w i th it in m o r e d e ta il l a t e r b u t i f y o u c a n ju s t
a l e r t th e C h a i r t o th a t ?
10

M R W H I T E:

S o C h a ir t h e r e w e r e n o b i d s p e c i f ic a ti o n s .

It w a s – t h i s

w a s e ff e c ti v e ly a n u n s o li c i t e d b i d th a t w o r k e d it s w a y th r o u g h t h e
p r o c e s s s t a r in g w i t h Mr S h a b a l a l a a n d t h e y n e v e r w e n t t o t h e m a n d
s a i d , th is i s w h a t w e r e q u ir e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

I t w a s – i t w a s d i ff e r e n t w it h th e O x - In t a k a w h e r e t h e r e

w e r e b id s p e c i fic a ti o n s b u t t h e is s u e w i t h t h a t is I n ta k a h e l p e d t h e
d e p a r t m e n t s e t t h e b i d s p e c i f ic a ti o n s s o t h e y e n d e d u p b e i n g t h e o n l y
o n e th a t w a s c o m p l ia n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R W H I T E: S o t h a t w a s d i ff e r e n t . B u t o n t h e W a ta k a s t h e r e w e r e n o
b i d s p e c i f ic a t i o n s s e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
M R W H I T E:

C h a ir j u s t t o c o n t in u e w i t h t h a t s u b m i s s i o n a n d t h e

a p p r o v a l s t h a t w e r e th e n g iv e n . T h e a p p r o v a l w a s n o t d o n e i n a f o r m a l

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
m e e ti n g i t w a s d o n e o n a r o u n d r o b i n b a s i s . S o th e s u b m is s i o n w a s
s e n t t o a l l t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e C e n tr a l P r o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e w h e r e
t h e y c o u l d w r i t e a p p r o v e d o r n o t a p p r o v e d a n d t h e ir r e a s o n s . C h a ir I
s e t th o s e o u t o n t h e f o l l o w i n g p a g e , p a g e 11 3 9 a n d w h a t t h e v a r i o u s
c o m m e n t s w e r e b y th e d i ff e r e n t m e m b e r s i f th e y w r o t e a c o m m e n t . S o
F o r M r S i p h o S h a b a l a l a h e m e r e ly s a id a p p r o v e d . H e d i d n o t d e c l a r e
a n y c o n f lic t o f i n te r e s t . H e d id n o t a b s t a i n f r o m g iv in g a v i e w. H e s a i d
approved.

D o c to r M b n j w a n a [ ? ] s u p p o r t e d t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .

Mrs

C o e tz e e s u p p o r t e d t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b u t s h e m a d e a c o m m e n t n e x t
10

t o h e r – h e r s ig n a tu r e w h ic h s a i d , m o r e i n fo o n h o w th e p a r ti c u l a r
s u p p li e r w a s s e l e c t e d w o u l d b e u s e f u l.
q u e s t io n .

S o s h e e ff e c ti v e ly a s k e d a

M r C o n r a d i e s u p p o r te d t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d m a d e t h e

c o m m e n t , I h a v e n o p r o b le m w i t h t h e w a iv e r a s a n u r g e n t c a s e b u t t h e
m a r k e t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t e s te d . M r M a l l o y a l s o s u p p o r t e d i t w i t h t h e
c o m m e n t , i n fo r m a ti o n p r o v i d e d n o t e n t ir e ly s a ti s fa c t o r y h o w e v e r th e
n e e d a n d d e s ir a b i li ty f o r th e p r o j e c t i m p l e m e n t a ti o n i s a d m is s i b l e a n d
M r I b r a h a m j u s t s a id s u p p o r te d . S o C h a i r t h r e e o f t h e m e m b e r s w h i le
t h e y s u p p o r te d i t e ff e c ti v e ly r a i s e d q u e r ie s a b o u t th e p r o c e s s t h a t h a d
b e e n f o ll o w e d .
20

C h a ir t h a t n e v e r – s o t h a t le d t o s o m e q u e s ti o n s

e ffe c tiv e l y i n t h e p r o c e s s th a t f o ll o w e d .

And there were some

q u e s t io n s fr o m L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s a s to w h e t h e r
t h is w a s a p p r o v e d o r n o t a n d w h e t h e r f u r th e r a c ti o n n e e d e d t o b e
taken.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o t h e n if I c a n r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 11 4 1 a n d

t h e l e t t e r fr o m S C N t o Te n d e r Aw a r d C o m m i t te e D e p a r t m e n t d a t e d t h e

Page 111 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
12 December 2005 at paragraph 9.8 – 9.086?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir b a s e d o n t h a t s u b m i s s i o n t h a t h a d b e e n p r e p a r e d
t o th e C e n tr a l P r o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e a n d t h e c o m m e n ts a b o u t
s u p p o r t e d w it h v a r io u s c o m m e n t s a t t a c h e d t h e r e w a s th e n a le t t e r
p r e p a r e d b y S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t a n d P r o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y w h ic h
s u m m a r i s e d th e o u t c o m e o f t h e p r o c e s s a n d i n t h a t s h e s t a te d :
“ T h e C e n tr a l Pr o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e h a s b y w a y o f r o u n d r o b i n g r a n t e d
approval

fo r

the

w a iv e r

of

normal

tender

procedures

for

the

p r o c u r e m e n t o f 2 2 m o b i le w a t e r p u r i fi c a t i o n p l a n t t h r o u g h t h e P o v e r ty
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y. W h e r e a r e y o u r e a d in g fr o m ?
M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir. O n t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 1 - 1 - 4 - 1
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R W H I T E : P a r a g r a p h 9 .0 - 8 - 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE:

A n d fr o m th e - t h e m i d d l e o f t h e f o u r th l i n e i n t h a t

paragraph.
“ C e n tr a l Pr o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t t e e h a s b y w a y o f
r o u n d r o b i n g r a n t e d a p p r o v a l f o r t h e w a iv e r o f
n o r m a l te n d e r p r o c e d u r e s fo r t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f 2 2
20

m o b i l e w a t e r p u r i fi c a t io n p l a n t th r o u g h t h e P o v e r ty
A ll e v i a t i o n F u n d f r o m I n ta k a I n v e s t m e n t s a t a t o ta l
cost

of

43 230 000.

However

concerns

were

e x p r e s s e d t h a t t h e r e is n o p r o b l e m w it h t h e w a i v e r
a s a n u r g e n t , b u t m a r k e t p r ic e s h o u l d b e t e s t e d . ”
C h a ir t h a t i s a n e x a c t q u o te o u t o f h e r - h e r m e m o r a n d u m

Page 112 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
that was prepared.

C h a ir, I - a n d I k n o w y o u a s k e d m e j u s t b r i e fly

b e f o r e t h a t a b o u t a s o le s u p p li e r.

T h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n w h a t m a y

h a v e h a p p e n e d a t Tr a n s n e t a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l a t t h e
ti m e w a s K w a Z u l u - N a t a l h a d a K Z N Pr o c u r e m e n t A c t.
S o t h e y n e e d e d t o c o m p ly w i th th a t A c t w h e n p r o c u r in g a n d
C h a ir i f o n e - I t h e n e x tr a c t e d fr o m t h a t A c t a t th e b o t t o m o f th a t p a g e .
W h e r e I s a y I e x a m i n e d t h e K Z N P r o c u r e m e n t Ac t a n d th e r e is n o
p r o v i s i o n fo r u r g e n t c a s e s . N o r d o e s i t d e ta il w a i v e r s in s u c h a c a s e ,
b u t th e r e i s a s u b s e q u e n t K Z N Pr o v is io n a l - Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y
10

P r a c t ic e N o t e 2 o f 2 0 0 6 t h a t d o e s d e fi n e u r g e n t a n d e m e r g e n c y c a s e s .
“When the following criteria have been met.”
A n d I a m r e a d i n g fr o m th e t o p o f p a g e 1 - 1 - 4 - 2 a n d th e r e is
t h r e e c r i te r i a .
“ T h e d u r a t i o n o f in v i t a ti o n o f b id s w o u l d h a v e a
material

impact

c o m m u n i ty / p u b l ic

i .e .

on
is

of

s e r v ic e

d e liv e r y

c r i t ic a l

importance

r e s u l t e d fr o m n a t u r a l d is a s t e r i . e . b e y o n d h u m a n
c o n tr o l a n d i m m e d i a te a c t io n is r e q u ir e d t o a v o i d a
d a n g e r o u s o r li f e t h r e a t e n i n g s i t u a t i o n , m is e r y o r
20

w a n t . P o o r p l a n n i n g is n o t a j u s ti f ia b le c a u s e o f a n
e m e r g e n c y o r u r g e n t s i t u a t io n .

W r it t e n m o t iv a t i o n

m u s t b e p r o v i d e d d e ta il in g t h e r e a s o n s a s t o w h y
p r o c u r e m e n t m u s t b e d o n e u n d e r c ir c u m s t a n c e s o f
u r g e n c y o r e m e r g e n c y. ”
C h a ir, th e - t h e s u b m is s i o n to t h e C e n tr a l P r o c u r e m e n t

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C o m m i t t e e n e v e r c o v e r e d a n y o f t h o s e c r it e r i a .

C h a ir w h i l e t h e r e -

t h e r e w a s a d o u b t in a n y b o d y t h a t w e s p o k e t o t h a t th e r e w a s a n e e d t o
p r o v i d e c l e a n d r in k i n g w a t e r i n th e r u r a l a r e a s i n K Z N . T h e r e w a s n o
s p e c i f ic e m e r g e n c y id e n ti fi e d w h e r e i t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e n o w t o s u c h
a n e x te n t t h a t y o u c o u l d n o t f o l l o w a p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d C h a ir
w h a t is in t e r e s ti n g is t h a t t h i s p r o c e s s s o m e f o u r y e a r s l a t e r s o m e o f
t h e s e W a t a k a s h a d s t il l n o t b e e n in s ta ll e d . S o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n y ju s ti fi c a t io n e v e n i f i t w a s j u s t if i e d a s a n e m e r g e n c y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : Yo u c a n n o t ju s ti fy i t f o u r y e a r s in a d v a n c e o f u s i n g i t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u t h e n r e fe r t o t h e fu r t h e r l e t t e r fr o m
M r S h a b a l a l a t o G u m b i - M a s il e l a d a t e d 2 7 J a n u a r y 2 0 0 6 r e f e r r e d t o o n
page 1-1-4-2 paragraph 9.0-8-7.
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r th a t i s w h e r e Mr S h a b a la la a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f
t h e C e n t r a l P r o c u r e m e n t C o m m i t te e - t h e r e w a s t h i s l e t t e r w r i t t e n
w h e r e h e r e f e r s to th e w a iv e r o f t e n d e r a n d h e n o te s t h a t th e r e h a s
b e e n s lo w p r o g r e s s i n th is k e y p o v e r ty a l l e v i a ti o n p r o j e c t a n d th a t i t is

20

e ffe c tiv e l y o f g r e a t c o n c e r n w i t h t h e n e e d t o c o m m i t th e f u n d s b e f o r e
t h e e n d o f M a r c h 2 0 0 6 w h ic h is o n ly tw o m o n t h s f r o m t h e e n d o f t h e
fi n a n c i a l y e a r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u s a y t h a t t h e f a c t th a t o n ly t w o m o n t h s
r e m a in s i n t h is f in a n c ia l y e a r s e e m s t o b e a s i m p o r t a n t t o S h a b a l a l a a s
t h e b a s i c n e e d s o f th e a ff e c t e d c o m m u n i t ie s .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e - t h e c o m m o n th r e a d th r o u g h o u t t h e s e
- th e s e m e e ti n g s a n d m i n u te s a n d m e m o r a n d u m s e tc e te r a i s t h e n e e d
t o s p e n d th e m o n e y.

O n e w o u l d th i n k t h e s t a r t in g p o in t w o u l d b e t h e

n e e d o f t h e c o m m u n i ty a n d t h e s p e n d i n g t h e m o n e y a n d th e d a t e y o u
spend it by is once you follow the process.
W h e r e a s h e r e i t lo o k s lik e y o u a r e m o r e i n t e r e s t e d i n
s p e n d in g th e m o n e y t h a n - t h a n a c t u a ll y d e l iv e r i n g a s e r v ic e to p e o p le .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t h a p p e n s if t h e e n d o f a f in a n c i a l

year comes and you have not spent the money as a department?
10

M R W H I T E : C h a ir, i t - i t g o e s b a c k t o t h e Tr e a s u r y o r t o t h e N a ti o n a l
Tr e a s u r y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o n o w t h e fu r t h e r m i n u t e r e f e r r e d t o o n t h e

s a m e p a g e - 1 - 1 - 4 - 2 o f th e K w a Z u lu - N a t a l C P C M e e ti n g h e l d o n
2 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 0 6 . I f y o u c o u l d p l e a s e d e a l w i t h t h a t .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h a t m e e ti n g o n 2 F e b r u a r y r a ti fi e d t h e d e c i s i o n
t h a t h a d b e e n t a k e n b y r o u n d r o b i n , b u t th e m in u te s f o r t h a t m e e ti n g …
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u t a l k a b o u t t h e m i n u te s .

r a i s e s o m e th in g h e r e .

I just want to

Yo u m e n ti o n e d t h a t th e a p p r o v a l o f t h e w a iv e r

w a s n o t d o n e i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h ic h c o m p l ie d w it h t h e c r i te r i a - w h i c h
20

m e t t h e c r i te r i a s p e l t o u t i n P r a c tic e N o te 2 o f 2 0 0 6 . T h a t i s e a r li e r i n on the same page.
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

If

the

m e e t in g

of

the

KZN

CPC

2 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 0 6 w a s t h a t p r a c ti c e n o t e i n o p e r a ti o n a lr e a d y ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, I w o u l d h a v e t o c h e c k . I d o n o t …

Page 115 of 158

was

on

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , b e c a u s e i t is q u i te e a r ly - t h e m e e t i n g i s q u i te

e a r ly i n t h e y e a r.

T h e r e - t h e r e m a y w e l l b e a p o s s ib il i ty t h a t th e

p r a c ti c e n o t e c a m e a f t e r t h e d a t e o f t h e m e e t in g .
M R W H I T E : I w o u ld h a v e t o c h e c k C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE:

B u t th e p o i n t b e i n g e v e n i f i t w a s n o t s p e l t o u t in th a t

p r a c ti c e n o t e s i m il a r p r o v i s i o n s a p p e a r in p r o c u r e m e n t p o l ic i e s a n d
p r o c e d u r e s t h r o u g h o u t t h e c o u n tr y.

S o o n e w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o ju s t

m a k e u p t h e b a s is fo r a w a iv e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o , n o . I u n d e r - u n d e r s t a n d t h a t . I t i s ju s t t h a t
if w e s a y t h e y a c te d i n b r e a c h o f t h a t p r a c t ic e n o t e - t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s
o f t h a t p r a c t ic e n o te . Yo u m u s t j u s t c h e c k w h e th e r i t w a s i n o p e r a t i o n
or not.

Yo u a r e p r o b a b ly r ig h t th a t t h e r e w o u ld b e s o m e o t h e r

le g i s l a ti o n o r p o lic ie s th a t w o u ld a p p ly.

T h a t w o u l d p r e s c r ib e c e r t a i n

r e q u ir e m e n t s .
What one does not know would be whether they would be
e x a c tl y t h e s a m e . I t h i n k t h e la s t t w o r e q u ir e m e n ts o r c r i te r i a a s t h e y
c a l l t h e m i n t h e p r a c tic e n o te s e e m t o b e q u i t e f a m il ia r. T h e - th e y t h e y o r t h e y c a n n o t b e c o n t e n ti o u s . I t h i n k i t is t h e f ir s t o n e th a t I a m
20

n o t s u r e a b o u t w h e t h e r i t w o u l d a p p e a r i n o t h e r p o l ic i e s a s w e ll .

At

le a s t th e w a y i t is fr a m e d .
M R W H I T E : I ta k e y o u r p o i n t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

N o w M r W h i t e in t h e

m i n u t e s o f t h e m e e t in g h e l d o n 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 6 t h e r e i t i s s ta t e d t h a t :

Page 116 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
“ T h e d e c is i o n h a d b e e n g r a n t e d b y w a y o f r o u n d
r o b i n f o r t h e w a iv e r.

However concerns were

expressed that the market price should have been
t e s te d . ”
T h e m i n u te s w e r e o n ly c o n fir m e d a n d s i g n e d o n 2 J u n e 2 0 0 6
b y w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e M r S h a b a l a la .

I f y o u c o u l d j u s t d e a l w it h t h a t

a n d th e n w h a t t r a n s p i r e d th e n e x t d a y o n 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 6 ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir b e c a u s e o f t h e w a y t h o s e m in u t e s w e r e r e c o r d e d
in d i c a t in g t h a t t h e r e w e r e c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e m a r k e t p r ic e .
10

O n th e

n e x t p a g e I r e f e r to a l e t te r - i t is a t t h e to p o f p a g e 1 - 1 - 4 - 3 .

That

G u m b i- M a s il e l a - t h e H e a d o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i t io n a l A ff a ir s
- s e n t to M r S h a b a l a l a o n 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 6 a n d s h e q u e s t io n e d th e
m a r k e t p r i c e s h o u l d b e te s te d a s i t w a s n o t u n d e r s t o o d a n d w h e t h e r
q u o t a t i o n s s h o u l d b e o b t a i n e d p r i o r t o i s s u in g t h e o r d e r t o I n t a k a ,
b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t c le a r fr o m t h e m i n u t e s .
T h e w a i v e r w a s a p p r o v e d , b u t s h o u l d t h e y n o w b e g e t ti n g
quotations or not.

Chair that docum ent was responded to not

p e r s o n a l ly b y M r S h a b a la la , b u t b y s o m e b o d y fr o m h is o ff ic e .
and I apologise.
20

Chair

T h e - th e l i n e s a r e n o t n u m b e r e d , b u t i f o n e g o e s

d o w n t o a p p r o x i m a te ly th e m id d l e o f t h e p a g e .

M r S h a b a l a l a ’s o ff ic e

t h e n m a d e a s i m il a r r e p o r t t o G u m b i- M a s i l e l a o n 1 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 6 a n d
s t a te d a n d I q u o t e :
“ I t is c l e a r t h a t t h e C P C ’s r e fe r e n c e to t h e m a r k e t
p r i c e s h o u ld b e t e s t e d w a s o n ly m e a n t t o r e fe r to
t h e i d e a l s it u a ti o n w h ic h w o u ld a p p ly i n n o r m a l

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e n t i m e is n o t a n is s u e a n d w h e r e
w a iv e r o f t e n d e r i s n o t r e q u i r e d . ”
As a result of that and the fact that the minutes were
u l ti m a t e ly a p p r o v e d o n 2 J u n e 2 0 0 6 a n d o r d e r w a s s u b s e q u e n tl y p l a c e d
w i t h I n t a k a f o r R 4 4 m il li o n - R 4 4 .5 m i ll io n o n 5 J u n e 2 0 0 6 .

So Chair

e ffe c tiv e l y d e s p i te t h e c o n c e r n s o f m e m b e r s o f t h e C e n tr a l P r o c u r e m e n t
C o m m i t t e e a b o u t t h e f a c t th a t th e m a r k e t h a d n o t b e e n t e s te d .
P r ic e s h a d n o t b e e n o b ta i n e d a n d t h e p r o c e s s h a d d r a g g e d
o n n o w f o r m o r e t h a n s ix m o n t h s . T h e d e c is i o n w a s n o w m a d e t o p l a c e
10

t h e o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t e v e n th o s e m e m b e r s o f t h e - o f t h a t c o m m i t t e e .

T h e y d id n o t r e p r e s e n t t h a t t h e q u e r i e s th e y w e r e r a is in g w e r e o f
s u ffi c i e n t c o n c e r n f o r t h e m t o s a y w e c a n n o t m a k e a d e c is io n u n ti l w e
k n o w a b o u t A , B , C , D . T h e y w e r e h a p p y to a p p r o v e a n d j u s t p r o v i d e
some comment.
MR WHITE: (Intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : If th e y f e lt s tr o n g ly t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t s a t is fi e d . T h e y
s h o u l d n o t h a v e p r o v i d e d a p p r o v a l.
M R W H I T E : I a g r e e C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I t - i t m a y b e - i t c o m e s a c r o s s a s a s i t u a t io n

w h e r e t h e y w e r e h a p p y t o a p p r o v e , b u t t h e y j u s t w a n te d t o m e n ti o n
s o m e t h i n g - y o u k n o w - a n d - a n d t h e q u e s t io n is w h e t h e r r e a lly i t p u ts
t h e m i n a n y d i ff e r e n t p o s i ti o n to t h o s e w h o j u s t a p p r o v e d w i t h o u t a n y
c o m m e n t s , b e c a u s e t h e y d i d n o t s a y I a m a p p r o v i n g o n c o n d i ti o n t h a t
t h e f o l lo w in g w i ll b e - th e f o l lo w in g r e q u ir e m e n t w i ll b e m e t o r

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t .
M R W H I T E : I a g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
MR WHITE:

So

e ff e c t iv e ly

C h a ir

that

w h o le

committee

ju s t

rubberstamped the approval.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M R W H I T E : I t w a s a l m o s t a f o r m a li ty …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:
10

Pr o c e s s t h a t h a d b e e n s t a r te d b y M r S h a b a l a l a s o m e

m o n th s b e f o r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR WHITE:

H e h a d u n d e r ta k e n i n t h e - t h e jo in t m e m o r a n d u m th a t

Tr e a s u r y w o u l d a r r a n g e f o r th e t e n - t e n d e r w a iv e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : H e c h a ir e d t h e c o m m i t t e e t h a t n o w a p p r o v e d i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : S o e ff e c t iv e ly h e d id w h a t h e s a i d h e w i ll d o . I w il l g e t th e
t e n d e r w a iv e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R W H I T E : S o i t w a s n o t - i t w a s a l m o s t l ik e t h e r e w a s n o d o u b t fo r
m o n th s b e f o r e t h a t t h is w o u l d b e th e o u tc o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d a ls o h is r e s p o n s e t o t h e c o n c e r n r a is e d

t h a t t h e m a r k e t s h o u l d b e te s t e d , b e c a u s e th a t is o n ly r e l e v a n t w h e n
y o u a r e n o t a s k i n g f o r a t e n d e r w a iv e r.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w y o u s a y t h e s e m in u t e s w e r e t h e n s ig n e d
o n 2 J u n e 2 0 0 6 a n d t h r e e d a y s la t e r t h e o r d e r w a s p l a c e d o n 5 J u n e .
W h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r th a t ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r m a y b e i f I c o u l d g o b a c k t o T S W 1 9 w h ic h is o n in R R 4 D a t p a g e 1 - 9 - 5 - 8 . T h a t d i a g r a m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t th e d i a g r a m t o b e p u t o n t h e s c r e e n ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M R W H I T E : I t n e e d s t o b e T S W 1 9 . S o C h a ir th a t - th a t d i a g r a m a n d
t h e p ie c e w e h a v e b e e n r e f e r r in g t o a t t h e m o m e n t is a t - i s to t h e to p
r ig h t o f t h a t d ia g r a m - t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d it i o n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l
G o v e r n m e n t - a n d t h e l i n e s I a m r e f e r r i n g t o a r e t h e - a r e t h e b l u e li n e
t h a t fl o w s fr o m th e d e p a r t m e n t t o In t a k a .
S o t h e r e is a n o r d e r o n 5 J u n e 2 0 0 6 fo r 2 1 W a ta k a s a s a
p r i c e o f R 4 4 . 5 m i ll io n .

C h a ir t h e r e w a s t h e n s o m e b a c k w a r d s a n d

f o r w a r d s b e t w e e n In t a k a a n d t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d I n t a k a s a i d t h is is a n
e x - w o r k s p r i c e C a p e To w n .

If you want the product in KZN you must

p a y f o r t h e d e l iv e r y. S u d d e n ly t h e d e p a r t m e n t d id n o t h a v e …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t w a s n e v e r p a r t o f a n y d o c u m e n t a ti o n ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir. ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h o w c o u ld - h o w c o u ld a n y b o d y h a v e th o u g h t t h a t
t h e r e w o u ld b e a n e x t r a if i t w a s n o t in t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n ?
M R W H I T E : I a g r e e C h a ir a n d a ll a l o n g t h e - th e fu n d i n g a v a i la b le h a d
c o m e fr o m t h e P o v e r t y A l le v i a ti o n F u n d a n d i t w a s 4 3 mi ll i o n .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

T h e y h a v e n o w a c t u a l ly s p e n t 1 .5 m i lli o n m o r e t h a n th e y

r e c e i v e d fr o m th e P o v e r ty Al l e v i a ti o n Fu n d a n d n o w In t a k a s a y s y o u
n e e d to p a y fo r t h e tr a n s p o r t a n d d e l iv e r y.
p r o c e s s d e la y e d b y a n o t h e r s ix m o n t h s .

So as a result the whole

Then on 5 November 2006 a

f u r th e r o r d e r w a s p l a c e d o n I n t a k a f o r t h e t r a n s p o r t o f R 5 . 6 m i ll io n .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: So if the matter was urgent why did it take so
lo n g f o r t h e tr a n s p o r t t o b e a r r a n g e d ?
M R W H I T E : W e ll C h a ir t h a t is - t h a t is w h y e v e r y th i n g g o e s a g a i n s t t h e
10

fact that it was urgent.

C h a ir t h e n th e r e w e r e s o m e fu r t h e r d e la y s ,

because the department …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - I a m s o r r y. S o - s o t h e a m o u n t n o w w i th d e l iv e r y
w o u ld h a v e g o n e u p t o a b o u t 5 0 ?
M R W H I T E : 5 0 .1 m il li o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 5 0 . 1 m i ll i o n ?
MR WHITE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m i n g fr o m 2 2 m il li o n ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
20

MR WHITE:

C h a ir t h e r e w e r e t h e n f u r th e r d e l a y s w i th th e d e li v e r y,

b e c a u s e th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t c o u l d n o t t e ll I n ta k a
w h e r e t o d e l iv e r t h e m t o a n d t h e - a n d t h e is s u e w i th th a t w a s t h e
s p e c i f ic s i te s a n d m u n ic i p a l i ti e s h a d n o t b e e n i d e n t i fi e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i f i t w a s u r g e n t w h y w o u ld a ll o f t h o s e t h i n g s n o t
have been done in time?

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M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir w h e n t h e - t h a t - t h a t is t h e q u e s t i o n . Th e - t h a t
b e g s t h e q u e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w - h o w c a n y o u s a y - h o w c a n y o u t a k e a ll k i n d s
o f m e a s u r e s t o s a y w e d o n o t h a v e t i m e e v e n to f o ll o w p r o c u r e m e n t
p r o c e d u r e s b e c a u s e t h i s is u r g e n t a n d y e t d o n o t k n o w w h e r e y o u w il l
p u t it o n c e i t is d e l iv e r e d .
MR WHITE: I agree Chair …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : B u t t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s t h e - o n e , t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r
10

end of March 2007 was now approaching plus Intaka was now saying
w e m a n u fa c tu r e d t h e g o o d s . W e w a n t t o b e p a i d . I f y o u c a n n o t t e l l u s
w h e r e t o d e l iv e r t h e m .

I t is n o t o u r f a u l t.

The department …

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u c a n n o t b la m e t h e m f o r t h a t .
M R W H I T E : I - I a g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t l e a s t t h a t p a r t o f i t . Ye s .
MR WHITE:

A n i n s p e c ti o n w a s th e n a l l e g e d ly d o n e b y Mr K o e n fr o m

t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : By M r … ?
20

MR WHITE: Koen.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

A n d h e s a i d I v e r i fi e d t h e y h a v e b e e n m a n u f a c t u r e d in

C a p e To w n a n d a s a r e s u l t a p a y m e n t w a s th e n m a d e . S o th e p a y m e n t
b y th e d e p a r t m e n t o f 4 4 . 5 m il li o n - s o n o t fo r t h e t r a n s p o r t , b u t f o r t h e
manufacture was then made on 5 March 2007.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE:

C h a ir, I w il l l a te r r e f e r t o w h e r e I v e r i f ie d s o m e o f th e s e

Wa t a k a s i n 2 0 1 0 a n d 1 0 o f th e 2 0 w e r e s t a n d i n g o n a p i e c e o f v a c a n t
g r o u n d o u ts i d e o f D u r b a n i n s to r a g e a n d t h e m a n u f a c t u r e r ’s p l a te t h a t
w a s r i v e t e d o n to t h e m w i t h a s e r ia l n u m b e r e t c e t e r a s a i d th e y w e r e o n l y
manufactured in 2008.
S o i f M r K o e n v e r if i e d p l a n ts t h a t h a d b e e n m a n u fa c tu r e d i n
F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 7 . I t w a s n o t th e o n e s t h a t c a m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R W H I T E : To K Z N .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : I t m a y h a v e b e e n o n e s th a t w e n t t o th e N o r t h e r n C a p e o r
somewhere else.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR WHITE:

T h e y w e r e p a y i n g i n a d v a n c e o f t h e ir p la n ts b e in g

manufactured.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h e n y o u d id t h e i n s p e c ti o n w e r e t h e r e

o n ly 1 0 p l a n ts a t t h a t in s p e c t io n ?
20

M R W H I T E : S o - s o t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I - d u r in g o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n
w e r e c e iv e d i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t w h e r e s o m e o f t h e s e p l a n t s w e r e b e in g
stored.

I t w a s ju s t o u t s i d e o f A m a n z i m t o ti S o u t h o f D u r b a n a n d o n

2 6 J u ly 2 0 1 0 I p h y s ic a l ly w e n t t h e r e w it h th e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ff ic e r a n d
s o m e m e m b e r s o f my t e a m v e r i fi e d th a t 1 0 o f t h e p l a n ts w e r e s t a n d in g
there.

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W e t o o k p h o to g r a p h s a n d C h a ir th is w a s m o r e t h a n t h r e e
y e a r s a f t e r th e y h a d b e e n p a i d f o r.

T h e y w e r e s til l n o w s ta n d i n g

u n i n s ta ll e d .
CHAIRPERSON: And where they were standing was not the site where
t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e o r w a s it t h e s i t e w h e r e t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d
t o b e , b u t n o t i n s t a l le d …
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir i t w a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Or you do not know?
MR WHITE:
10

I t w a s in a n i n d u s tr i a l p a r k w h e r e t h e r e a r e f a c t o r i e s

a r o u n d t h is a n d w a s a n u n d e v e lo p e d p ie c e o f la n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S o it w a s n o t …
MR WHITE: (Intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s c l e a r ly n o t w h e r e t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o s e r v e
t h e c o m m u n i ty ?
MR WHITE:

N o C h a ir.

I t w a s ju s t l a n d t h a t w a s r e n t e d a s s t o r a g e

s p a c e f o r t h e m t o b e p l a c e d o n u n t il t h e s i t e s c o u l d b e - b e id e n t i fi e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h a t w a s t h e ir c o n d i ti o n t h r e e y e a r s a f te r t h e y

were paid for …
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir . ..
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r h a d th e y ju s t a r r iv e d t h e r e ?
MR WHITE:

N o C h a ir.

Th e y h a d b e e n s t a n d i n g t h e r e f o r s o m e ti m e .

Yo u c o u l d s e e t h e y h a d b e e n s t a n d i n g t h e r e f o r s o m e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR WHITE: But they are stainless steel. So they do not rust, but you
could …

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : J u s t s e e b y lo o k i n g a t t h e m t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t - t h e y h a d
n o t c o m e y e s t e r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
M R W H I T E : T h e y h a d o b v i o u s l y b e e n s t a n d i n g t h e r e f o r s o m e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B u t t h e d e p a r t m e n t i f t h e y w e r e s t il l th e r e

t h r e e y e a r s l a t e r o b v io u s ly v i e w e d n o u r g e n c y in d e p l o y i n g th is t o th e
c o m m u n i ty th a t n e e d e d p u r i fi e d w a te r o r t o d r i n k c l e a n w a t e r.
10

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir t h e r e w a s - I - I a g r e e 1 0 0 p e r c e n t . T h e p r o b le m
w a s t h e y c o u l d n o t i d e n t i fy th e s it e s t o i n s t a l l t h e m .

They bought

something that they now did not know where to put.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y - in t h e m e m o r a n d u m s - in t h e - in t h e l e t te r s
t h e y p r o je c t e d th e m s e lv e s - t h a t is n o w G o v e r n m e n t p e o p le / o ffi c i a l s
in v o lv e d i n t h is t h in g - p r o je c te d t h e m s e l v e s a s b e i n g c o n c e r n e d - v e r y
m u c h c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h e n e e d s o f t h e c o m m u n i ti e s w h i c h w o u l d b e
h e l p e d b y th e s e p l a n ts .
Did not the - were these plants such that they could not be
in s t a l l e d i n t h e c o m m u n i ti e s w h e r e t h e y w e r e r e q u ir e d o r d i d t h e y
20

r e q u ir e a s p e c ia l k i n d o f e n v ir o n m e n t o r w h a t ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, t h e y ju s t h a d n o t i d e n t if ie d t h e s i te s . S o th e i n i ti a l
… ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y h a d n o t g o n e t h e r e to - t h e y g o n e o u t t o th e
c o m m u n i ti e s a n d b a s ic a lly h a v e a lo o k ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir.

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CHAIRPERSON:

W h i c h m ig h t s u g g e s t t h e y - w h e n t h e y t a l k e d a b o u t

c o m m u n i ti e s o r a c o m m u n i ty th a t n e e d e d t h is k i n d o f p l a n t . T h e y m a y
h a v e ju s t b e e n t a lk in g i n g e n e r a l .
c o m m u n i ty

or

th e r e

were

N o t b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a s p e c i fic

s p e c if ic

c o m m u n i ti e s

w h ic h

had

been

id e n t i fi e d .
MR WHITE: Correct Chair …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R W H I T E : B e c a u s e o n e o f t h e i n i ti a l lis ts th a t h a d G P S c o o r d i n a t e s
w h e r e t h e y s h o u ld b e in s t a ll e d - o n e o f t h e c o o r d in a te s w a s i n t h e
10

middle of a dam.

A n o t h e r c o o r d i n a t e w a s o n t h e t o p o f a h il l w h e r e

t h e r e w a s n o w a t e r s o u r c e a n d t h a t i s w h y In t a k a s a i d w e c a n n o t i n s t a l l
t h e s e , b e c a u s e th e r e i s n o - y o u c a n n o t p u t th e m in t h o s e s i t e s .
S o t h a t is t h e la c k o f a c t u a l th o u g h t t h a t h a d g o n e t h r o u g h
t h e p r o c e s s a n d t h a t i s w h y i t t o o k y e a r s t o e v e n tu a lly in s ta ll t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h o w d o y o u - h o w d o y o u a s a G o v e r n m e n t o ffic i a l
c o m m i t a G o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t to p a y i n g m il li o n s o f t a x p a y e r s
money to get a product that you have not done your homework about to
s e e h o w a n d i f i t w il l b e u s e d ? I g u e s s …
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o t a q u e s ti o n r e a l ly fo r y o u , b u t …
M R W H I T E : B u t t h e u n f o r tu n a te th i n g i s t h e n e g a tiv e i n fe r e n c e c a n b e
d r a w n is th a t it w a s d o n e , b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a p r o m i s e o f a p a y m e n t t o
M r S h a b a l a l a . S o h e h a d n e g o ti a te d a t th e b e g i n n i n g a n d I w i ll r e f e r to
a n a ffi d a v i t f r o m D r S a v o i o f I n ta k a . Th a t h e r e q u ir e d a d o n a ti o n li n k e d
to this procurement …

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R W H I T E : A n d t h a t i s w h a t I a m r e f e r r i n g t o in t h a t - i n t h a t d i a g r a m
C h a ir. T h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e R 1 0 0 - R 1 0 0 m il li o n d o n a t io n ?
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir. I t is th e R 1 m i ll io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. R 1 m il li o n .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y. B e fo r e y o u g o th e r e …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll - w e l l y o u - y o u c a n n o t b l a m e m e M r W h i t e .

I

h a v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e h e r e o f l o ts o f 1 0 0 ’s o f mi ll i o n s . R 6 0 0 m i ll io n a n d
10

- a n d b i ll io n s o f R a n d s . S o R 1 m i ll io n h a s n o t f e a t u r e d m u c h . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f w e c a n j u s t g o b a c k t o t h e ti m e li n e . W h a t
d a t e d id y o u s a y th e p a y m e n t w a s m a d e to M r S a v o i ’s c o m p a n y Intaka?
MR WHITE: It is 5 March 2007.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And what happened seven days after that

p a y m e n t w a s a ffe c t e d ?
M R W H I T E : S o t h a t is w h e n th e p a y m e n t o f R 1 0 5 3 0 0 0 , 0 0 w a s m a d e
t o a fir m o f a tt o r n e y s in D u r b a n c a l le d K h u b o n i a n d S h e z i A t to r n e y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. H o w m u c h w a s th a t ?
20

MR WHITE: 1 053 000.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y. T h a t w a s m a d e - t h a t p a y m e n t w a s m a d e

…
M R W H I T E : S e v e n d a y s l a t e r C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A b o u t s e v e n d a y s a ft e r t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d p a id

Intaka?

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M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d t h a t i s a l s o r e fe r r e d t o o n t h a t d ia g r a m
at TSW19.

W h e r e i f y o u l o o k a t y o u c a n s e e t h e r e is t h e n a - a

p a y m e n t t o t h a t f ir m o f a t t o r n e y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir, m a y b e t o t h e n li n k t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e - I a m s o r r y Mr W h i t e . W e w il l c o m e b a c k ju s t
n o w. I j u s t w o u l d li k e u s to t a k e a f iv e mi n u t e s c o m f o r t b r e a k . W e w i ll
ju s t a d j o u r n f o r fiv e m i n u t e s . W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
10

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t’s c o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr W h it e b e f o r e th e

a d j o u r n m e n t , w e w e r e r e f e r r i n g to y o u r d i a g r a m A n n e x u r e T S W 1 9 a n d
y o u in d i c a t e d t h a t s e v e n d a y s a f t e r p a y m e n t w a s m a d e b y t h e
D e p a r t m e n t t o I n ta k a , a n a m o u n t o f R 1 0 5 3 m il li o n w a s p a i d o n t h e 1 2 t h
o f M a r c h 2 0 0 7 to K u b o n i & S h e z i A t t o r n e y s w a s t h a t p a i d i n to a
b u s i n e s s a c c o u n t o r a Tr u s t a c c o u n t ?
M R W H I T E : M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g it w a s p a i d i n to th e Tr u s t a c c o u n t o f th e
20

A t t o r n e y s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I’m sorry?
M R W H I T E : To t h e Tr u s t a c c o u n t o f t h e A t t o r n e y s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d n o w t o e x p la in w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d t o t h e
m o n e y, I ’ d l ik e t o r e fe r y o u t o t h e fu r t h e r d i a g r a m A n n e x u r e T S W 2 1 ,

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C h a ir B u n d le D p a g e 1 9 7 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t a k e i t t h a t ’s in t h e s a m e E x h i b i t , s a m e l e v e r a r c h

fi le ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t ’s R R 4 D .
CHAIRPERSON: 1978 you said?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , C h a ir i t w o n ’ t b e in th a t s a m e f il e , t h e

fi le t h a t I th i n k y o u ’r e w o r k i n g w it h n o w i s C a n d t h is is in D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w e w e r e l o o k i n g b e f o r e t h e b r e a k a t th e d i a g r a m
a n d I’ m lo o k i n g a t t h e f il e t h a t h a d t h e d i a g r a m th a t w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t
b e f o r e th e fiv e - m i n u t e a d j o u r n m e n t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s th a t is t h e s a m e fi le , th a t is th e c o r r e c t

fi le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is D ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a t i s D a n d w e w e r e l o o k in g a t T S W 1 9 a n d
w e n o w w a n t t o r e f e r to A n n e x u r e T S W 2 1 .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

At 1978?

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s I b e li e v e s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y it l o o k s l ik e I’ m a b o u t to f in d i t – o k a y t h a n k

you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w w e k n o w t h e m o n e y y o u s a y g o e s in t o

K u b o n i & S h e z i A t t o r n e y s Tr u s t a c c o u n t , c o u l d y o u , w i t h r e fe r e n c e t o

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d o c u m e n t T S W 2 1 e x p l a i n to t h e C h a ir, w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d to t h e
money?
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe before that are you able to throw any

p a r t ic u l a r li g h t w h y i t w a s n o t R 1 m il li o n i t w a s R 1 0 5 3 0 0 0 ?
M R W H I T E : S o r r y C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e a m o u n t w a s R 1 m il li o n a n d s o m e t h in g , is t h a t

r ig h t ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Was it R53 000?
10

M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a lr i g h t , n o i t j u s t s o u n d s a li t tl e u n u s u a l – i t
lo o k s u n u s u a l i n m y e y e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir a n d y o u w i ll in a v e r y s h o r t w h il e

u n d e r s t a n d w h y, p e r h a p s t h a t a m o u n t lo o k s lik e th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t o k a y, c o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : L e t ’s ju s t l o o k a t t h i s s i d e o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n
a n d th e n w e ’ ll g o b a c k .

W h a t w a s t h is m o n e y t h a t w a s p a id in t o t h e

A t t o r n e y ’s Tr u s t a c c o u n t , w h a t h a p p e n e d t o i t , d i d y o u f o ll o w t h e
money?
20

M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir w e d i d a n d in t h a t d i a g r a m a t p a g e 1 9 7 8 i n th e
b o x in th e m i d d l e o f t h a t p a g e I s u m m a r i s e w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h a t
m o n e y.

S o t h a t m o n e y w a s th e n d i s p e r s e d b y th e a t t o r n e y s o n t h e

in s t r u c t i o n

of

Mr

Ts h a b a l a l a

or

h is

wife

to

p r e d o m i n a n tl y r e l a ti n g to t h e o p e r a ti o n s o f h is f a r m .
u s e d t o b u y … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

Page 130 of 158

various

e n t it i e s

S o C h a ir i t w a s

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e o p e r a ti o n o f h is ?
M R W H I T E : To h i s , b e i n g Mr Ts h a b a l a la ’s f a r m .
CHAIRPERSON: Farm?
MR WHITE: Farm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir i t w a s f o r t h e c o m m u n i ty w a t c h , i t w a s to

p u r c h a s e f e r ti liz e r, i t w a s t o r e p a ir a tr a c t o r, i t w a s to p r o c u r e ir r i g a ti o n
p a r t s a n d t o r e p a ir ir r i g a t io n s y s t e m s a n d t h e n i n t h e s e c o n d li n e o f
t h o s e b o x e s , B lu e S e r e n i ty is a n e n ti ty o w n e d b y h i s w i f e a n d R 3 0 0 0 0 0
10

in t w o s e p a r a t e p a y m e n ts w a s p a i d t o t h a t e n ti ty. S o C h a ir, e ff e c t iv e l y
w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d h o w i t w a s p o s s i b l e , I c a n o n ly a s s u m e it w a s
b e c a u s e t h e m o n e y e a r n e d i n te r e s t o v e r t h e t i m e th a t th e s e p a y m e n t s
t o o k p l a c e b u t R 1 0 5 6 0 0 0 w a s s p e n t fo r t h e b e n e fi t o f M r Ts h a b a l a l a
a n d h i s w i fe .

C h a ir t h e n t h o s e p a y m e n ts s t a r t e d t a k in g p l a c e o n t h e

1 9 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 7 s o C h a ir … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON: Would that have been within a few days after Kuboni
Attorneys…[intervenes].
M R W H I T E : I t w a s a w e e k C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Within a week?
20

M R W H I T E : W it h in a w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : A n d t h e m o n e y, t h e fi n a l p a y m e n t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t c o u ld n ’t h a v e e a r n e d m u c h i n te r e s t w h i le i t w a s

with them.
M R W H I T E : N o C h a ir b u t i t w a s p a id o u t o v e r t h e n e x t s i x m o n t h s .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y s o th e fir s t p a y m e n t w a s w i t h i n a w e e k ?
M R W H I T E : T h e f ir s t p a y m e n t w a s o n th e 1 9 t h o f F e b r u a r y a n d t h e la s t
payment was on the 21st of August.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR WHITE:

S o t h e y u s e d th is m o n e y o v e r th a t s i x - m o n th p e r i o d t o

d e fr a y t h e ir p e r s o n a l e x p e n s e s o n t h e ir f a r m , M r Ts h a b a l a l a a n d h is
wife.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s p a i d o u t , s o t o s p e a k i n i n s t a l m e n ts ?
M R W H I T E : In in s ta l m e n ts .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i t w a s p a id o u t t o th e Ts h a b a la la ’s – a ll t h e

in s t a l m e n t s w e r e d ir e c t e d e it h e r t o t h e i r a c c o u n ts o r to t h e a c c o u n ts o f
e n t i ti e s a s s o c ia t e d w i th t h e m ?
M R W H I T E : W e ll to e n ti ti e s t h a t t h e y o w e d m o n e y t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t th e y o w e d m o n e y to ?
MR WHITE:

S o th e s e w e r e e ff e c ti v e ly s u p p l i e r s t o th e f a r m , t o

e q u ip m e n t f o r r e p a i r s f o r s e c u r i ty e t c e t e r a o n h is fa r m a n d h i m o r h is
w i f e g a v e t h e A t t o r n e y s a t K u b o n i S h e z i A t t o r n e y s i n s tr u c ti o n s o n w h o
to pay and how much.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s u n u s u a l I w o u l d i m a g i n e .
20

M R W H I T E : I a g r e e C h a ir t h e r e ’s n o t h in g u s u a l a b o u t t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t’s u n u s u a l u n l e s s y o u a r e – y o u n o r m a ll y d o t h a t
f o r t h a t c l ie n t b u t i t ’s u n u s u a l w i t h a k i n d o f o n c e - o ff p a y m e n t th a t y o u
t h e n , y o u k n o w, d o n ’ t p a y i t t o th e c l ie n t y o u g e t d ir e c t e d w h e r e t o p a y
it b y t h e c l i e n t b u t m a y b e t h a t ’s j u s t my e x p e r i e n c e i t m i g h t n o t b e
e v e r y b o d y ’s e x p e r ie n c e .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir b a s e d o n t h e f a c ts th e p r o s e c u t o r s a ll o c a te d t o
t h is m a t t e r d r e w th e c o n c lu s i o n t h a t th is w a s ju s t a w a y o f l a u n d e r in g a
c o r r u p t p a y m e n t . S o i t w a s p a i d t h r o u g h t h e s e a t to r n e y s o n a n i n v o i c e
t h a t t h e y h a d s u b m i t t e d t o I n t a k a f o r l e g a l s e r v ic e s p r o v id e d .

So again

w h y i t g o e s in t o a Tr u s t a c c o u n t a n d n o t in t o a b u s i n e s s a c c o u n t i s
u n a n s w e r e d b u t K u b o n i S h e z i A t t o r n e y s is s u e d a n i n v o i c e to In t a k a ,
a n d I w i ll r e f e r t o i t s h o r tl y, i t ’s a o n e - li n e i n v o ic e f o r le g a l s e r v i c e s
rendered.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i t is u s u a l f o r a t t o r n e y s to r e c e i v e th e m o n t h i n to
10

– f o r t h e i r s e r v ic e s i n t o t h e Tr u s t a c c o u n t a n d th e n tr a n s f e r i t in t o t h e ir
b u s i n e s s a c c o u n t a f t e r w a r d s s o t h a t p a r t is u s u a l i t’s j u s t e a s i e r t o
a c c o u n t f o r i t i f i t g o e s t h a t w a y o r a t l e a s t t h a t p a r t is n o r m a l b e c a u s e
y o u c a n a l w a y s c h e c k f ir s t , y o u k n o w, if th e r e i s e n o u g h m o n e y t h is
s id e a n d t h e n g o o v e r th a t s i d e .
MR WHITE:

B u t C h a ir t h e a ll e g a t io n h e r e w a s , t h e s e r v ic e s h a d

a lr e a d y b e e n r e n d e r e d s o i t w a s n ’t p a i d a s a r e t a i n e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s – n o , n o e v e n w h e n t h e s e r v ic e h a s b e e n

r e n d e r e d it ’s q u i te u s u a l t o d o i t t h a t w a y, m a y b e o t h e r f ir m s d o it
d i ff e r e n t ly t h a t – d u r i n g m y ti m e i n p r a c t ic e a l o t o f – a t le a s t b la c k
20

fir m s w o u ld r e c e i v e t h e m o n e y i n th e Tr u s t a c c o u n t a n d a t t h e e n d o f
t h e m o n th w h e n y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o p a y y o u r b il ls , p a y y o u r s t a ff, y o u
t h e n c h e c k w h a t y o u h a v e w o r k e d f o r a n d t h e n y o u t r a n s f e r m o n e y fr o m
t h e Tr u s t a c c o u n t, b e c a u s e t h e m o n e y in t h e Tr u s t a c c o u n t i s th e
c li e n t ’s m o n e y, y o u tr a n s fe r i t i f y o u h a v e w o r k e d fo r it , y o u h a v e
e a r n e d i t , i t ’s y o u r fe e s , i n t o y o u r b u s i n e s s a c c o u n t t h e n y o u p a y

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y o u r s e l f a n d y o u p a y o th e r p e o p l e , o k a y a l r ig h t .
M R W H I T E : U n d e r s t a n d C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir u n fo r t u n a t e ly I th in k t h a t, t h a t i n t h is

in s t a n c e is e n t ir e l y t h e o r e tic a l b e c a u s e is it c l e a r M r W h i te th a t – o r is
it tr u e Mr W h it e t h a t M r S a v o i h i m s e l f d e p o s e d t o a n a ffi d a v i t w h e r e h e
e x p l a i n e d w h y h e h a d m a d e t h i s p a y m e n t t o th e s e A t t o r n e y s a n d b e f o r e
w e g e t t o it , s o t h a t w e c a n ju s t m a k e t h is c l e a r, d id h e s a y t h a t a n y
le g a l s e r v ic e s w e r e r e n d e r e d t o h i m i n r e s p e c t o f th is p a y m e n t ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir h e s a id th e i n v o ic e w a s a r r a n g e d b y M r Ts h a b a l a l a
10

a n d th a t th is fi r m h a d p r o v i d e d n o le g a l s e r v ic e s t o I n t a k a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w a s th e r e a n i n v o i c e t h a t w a s s e n t o u t b y t h is l a w
fir m t o I n ta k a ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d fo r h o w m u c h w a s i t , i f y o u r e m e m b e r ?
M R W H I T E : R 1 0 5 3 0 0 0 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : E x a c tl y t h e a m o u n t?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir m a y b e i f I c o u l d r e fe r t o th is s p e c i f ic i n v o ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R W H I T E : I t’s i n R R 4 C .

20

CHAIRPERSON: C?
M R W H I T E : C , C h a ir a t p a g e 1 3 9 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: What page on C?
M R W H I T E : 1 3 9 8 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 3 9 8 , s o th e in v o ic e i s d a t e d 1 4 F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 7 a n d
it ’s a d d r e s s e d t o D r G S a v o i , I n t a k a In v e s t m e n ts P ty L i m it e d a n d i t

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
says,
“ t o o u r fe e s f o r w o r k d o n e w it h th e ta k in g o f i n s tr u c ti o n s ,
telephone

c a l ls ,

correspondence,

d r a f ti n g

of

c o n tr a c ts ,

c o n s u l t a ti o n s , a t te n d i n g m e e ti n g s , d r a f t in g l e g a l o p i n i o n s ,
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d m is c e l la n e o u s a tt e n d a n c e s , p e r io d 2 0 0 3
t o 2 0 0 6 a n d t h e n th e to t a l is R 1 0 5 3 0 0 0 . 0 0 ” .
O k a y s o t h a t is th e i n v o i c e t h a t w a s i s s u e d b y th e a t t o r n e y s .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u ’r e s a y i n g D r S a v o i s a id th e y n e v e r r e n d e r e d
10

t h e s e r v ic e s t h a t t h e y s a y i n th e i n v o i c e t h e y r e n d e r e d ?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B u t y o u w e r e s a y in g s o m e t h i n g a b o u t

Ts h a b a l a l a – M r Ts h a b a l a l a a n d h is in v o lv e m e n t i n t h is i n v o i c e o r ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir i n t h a t s a m e fi le w i t h t h a t i n v o ic e – t h a t in v o ic e
w a s a c t u a ll y a t t a c h e d t o D r S a v o i ’s a ffi d a v i t a n d t h e a ffi d a v i t s ta r t s a t
1 3 8 6 , t h a t s a m e f il e i f y o u g o b a c k a b o u t 1 2 p a g e s .
CHAIRPERSON: 1386?
MR WHITE:

1 3 8 6 C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I’ v e g o t i t.
20

M R W H I T E : C h a ir th a t , s o m e t w e l v e p a g e a ffi d a v i t is a n a ff id a v i t t h a t
D r G a s to n S a v o i p r o v i d e d t o t h e p o l ic e a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t h e
c a m e to k n o w t h a t t h e s e i n v e s t i g a t io n s w e r e t a k in g p l a c e , p a r tic u l a r ly
around the R1 053 000 as well as two payment of R500 000 to Linda
M a k w a n a z i o f R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts a n d h e – m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s in
a n a t te m p t t o t r y a n d c o n v i n c e t h e p o li c e th a t h e w o u ld c o - o p e r a t e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
p r o v i d e d th is a ff id a v i t a n d t h is a ffi d a v it s e ts o u t t h e b a c k g r o u n d to th e
p a y m e n t o f t h i s p a y m e n t t o K u b o n i S h e z i A t to r n e y s a n d C h a ir j u s t t o
r e a d s o m e o f t h e r e le v a n t p a r a g r a p h s i f I c o u ld g o t o p a g e 1 3 8 9 a t
p a r a g r a p h 1 4 … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f y o u c o u l d p e r h a p s s ta r t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON: 1289 – 1389?
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : J u s t to p u t i t i n c o n t e x t a n d t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e
a ffi d a v i t i f y o u c o u l d j u s t f ir s t r e a d p a r a g r a p h f iv e o n 1 3 8 6 .
10

MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h a t ’s o n th e fi r s t p a g e o f t h e a ffi d a v i t a t th e

b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e a n d it r e a d s ,
“ I’ v e b e e n a d v is e d th a t t h e i s s u e s th a t h a v e b e e n r a i s e d a n d
w i t h w h ic h I s h o u l d d e a l i n t h is a ff id a v i t a r e f ir s t ly a c e r t a i n
d o n a ti o n t h a t w a s p a i d b y In t a k a i n F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 7 a n d
s e c o n d ly

two

commission

payments

paid

by

In t a k a

to

R o w m o o r I n v e s t m e n ts 7 3 8 P t y L i mi t e d i n A u g u s t 2 0 0 7 , I s h a ll
n o w d e a l w it h e a c h o f t h e s e i s s u e s ” .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y o u w a n te d to g o t o a p a r a g r a p h a t 1 3 8 9 ?
M R W H I T E : T h a t ’s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 C h a ir a n d h e s t a t e s ,
20

“ I n a d d i t io n a t th is t i m e th e q u e s t i o n o f a d o n a t i o n t o th e
p a r t y w a s a ls o r a i s e d w h i c h I u n d e r s t o o d t o r e f e r t o t h e
A N C ” … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Perhaps you should start with paragraph 13

p l e a s e t o j u s t p u t t h a t i n c o n te x t o n p a g e 1 3 8 8 .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir, p a r a g r a p h 1 3 r e a d s ,

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
“ T h e is s u e o f I n t a k a p o s s ib ly b u il d i n g a f a c t o r y in K Z N to
m a n u f a c t u r e w a t e r p u r i fi c a t io n a n d tr e a t m e n t u n i ts a n d c r e a t e
jo b s i n K Z N w a s a ls o r a is e d b y t ic k K Z N fr o m t h e ti m e o f o u r
in it i a l d i s c u s s io n s .

I n r e s p o n s e I in d ic a te d w h il s t w e w e r e

a l w a y s s u p p o r t iv e o f l o c a l e c o n o m ic d e v e l o p m e n t i n i ti a ti v e s
w e a lr e a d y h a d a f a c t o r y in C a p e To w n a n d a d e c i s i o n a s to
w h e t h e r o r n o t to b u il d a f u r th e r fa c t o r y i n K Z N w o u l d b e
b a s e d o n b u s i n e s s c o n s i d e r a t io n s s u c h a s t h e n u m b e r o f
u n i ts o r d e r e d .
10

A t th e ti m e , a s I r e c a l l t h e r e w a s s o m e

d is c u s s io n o f t h e p o s s i b il it y o f 8 0 u n it s f o r o n e a r e a a lo n e in
KZN”
I t t h e n c o n ti n u e s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 o n t h e f o ll o w i n g p a g e ,
“ I n a d d i t io n a t th is t i m e th e q u e s t i o n o f a d o n a t i o n t o th e
p a r t y w a s a l s o r a is e d w h ic h I u n d e r s t o o d t o r e fe r to th e A N C .
A s I r e c a ll t h e p e r s o n t h a t d id s o w a s M r S i p h o Ts h a b a l a l a
h e a d K Z N tr e a s u r y a n d I w a s n o t a v e r s e t o t h e i d e a o f m a k in g
s u c h a d o n a t io n a s i t is a c o m m o n p r o c e d u r e i n a n y c o u n tr y,
h o w e v e r, I d i d n o t p u r s u e th e m a tt e r a n y f u r th e r a t t h a t ti m e .
P a r a g r a p h 1 5 c o n t in u e s , a g a i n s t t h i s b a c k g r o u n d , a t I n t a k a ’s

20

c o s ts I th e r e fo r e a r r a n g e d a fa c t fi n d i n g v is i t t o S o u t h
A m e r i c a , [ in d is ti n c t ] a n d R i o d e J a n e ir o f o r a d e l e g a t io n fr o m
K Z N s o th a t i ts m e m b e r s c o u ld s e e f o r t h e m s e l v e s h o w b o th
t h e s e l f g e n e r a ti n g o x y g e n a n d w a te r p u r i f ic a ti o n p l a n t s
o p e r a t e d i n o r d e r t o a s s i s t t h e d e l e g a ti o n in d e c i d i n g w h e th e r
t h e e q u ip m e n t m i g h t i n d e e d p r o v e u s e fu l i n K Z N ” ,

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C h a ir M r Ts h a b a l a la w a s o n e o f t h o s e d e le g a t e s a n d t h e n o n
p a g e – t h e f o l lo w in g p a g e 1 3 9 0 p a r a g r a p h 2 0 ,
“ A g a i n s t t h i s b a c k g r o u n d th e K Z N P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t v i a
it ’s d e p a r t m e n t o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d it i o n a l A ff a ir s
s u b s e q u e n t ly p u r c h a s e d 2 0 Wa t a k a u n i ts fr o m o u r c o m p a n y a t
a u n i t c o s t o f R 2 2 2 8 1 8 1 .8 2 th e to t a l a m o u n t in v o lv e d w a s

10

therefore

R 4 4 5 6 3 6 3 6 . 4 0 in c l u s iv e o f VAT a n d th e r e l e v a n t

department

c o n tr a c t t e n d e r n u m b e r b e i n g ZN T 1 4 2 6 2 0 0 5 L S . I

have

k n o w l e d g e o f th e p r o c e d u r e s f o l lo w e d w i t h i n

the

KZN

PG

o r d e r t o p u r c h a s e th e e q u i p m e n t fr o m I n t a k a

but

I’v e

always

no

d ir e c t
in

a s s u m e d th a t w h a te v e r n e c e s s a r y s te p s – s t e p s n e c e s s a r y t o b e t a k e n
d e p a r t m e n ta ll y w e r e i n f a c t
CHAIRPERSON:

taken”.

Ye s M s W e n tz e l I th i n k w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t th e

d o n a ti o n a n d th e tr ip i t m a d e , le t ’s n o t g e t o u t o f t h a t tr a c k , l e t ’s f i n is h
that.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s i t w i ll b e d e a l t w i t h if y o u c o u ld p e r h a p s
t h e n g o t o p a g e 1 3 9 3 w h e r e in p a r a g r a p h 3 1 y o u s a y, y o u n o te t h a t th e
Wa t a k a ’s w e r e fi n a l ly l a u n c h e d w i th s o m e p u b l ic it y b y t h e M E C f o r t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t a n d Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s o n th e 5 t h o f
20

A p r il 2 0 0 8 s o m e t w o y e a r s a f t e r t h e in i ti a l p u r c h a s e o f t h e e q u ip m e n t .
Yo u c a n t h e n d e a l w i th w h a t is s a i d i n p a r a g r a p h s 3 2 , 3 3 , 3 4 a n d 3 5 .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir i n t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s D r S a v o i n o w r e f e r s t o t h e
d o n a ti o n , a n d in p a r a g r a p h 3 2 h e s a y s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t b e fo r e t h a t t h e p a r a g r a p h 3 1 t h a t ta lk s a b o u t t h e

la u n c h i n g , t h e la u n c h , th is w o u l d h a v e b e e n a l a u n c h b e fo r e t h e s i te s

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
w e r e id e n ti fi e d w h e r e t h e s e p la n ts w o u ld b e i n s t a ll e d .
MR WHITE:

W e l l C h a i r t h e y i n s t a l le d . .. [ i n te r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

T h e y i n s ta ll e d s o m e ?

J a , o n e o r t w o , s o th a t w a s t h e s t a r t o f t h e p r o j e c t .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

M R W H I T E : S o j u s t b e f o r e th e y l a u n c h e d t h e fir s t o n e , o r i n s t a ll e d t h e
fir s t o n e i t t o o k t w o y e a r s .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:
10

Mmm.

S o i n 2 0 2 0 t h e y m a y h a v e g o t t o te n , th e r e w e r e s t ill t e n

le f t .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ye s .

O v e r th e n e x t t w o y e a r s t h e y in s t a l l e d a n o t h e r n in e .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R W H I T E : B u t e v e n t h e v e r y fir s t o n e t o o k m o r e t h a n t w o y e a r s , a n d
t h a t ’s o n I n ta k a ’s v e r s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A s f a r a s y o u k n o w t h e la s t ti m e y o u k n e w w h a t w a s

t h e p o s i t io n a b o u t w h a t u l t i m a te ly h a p p e n e d w i th . . .[ i n te r v e n e s ]
MR WHITE:

C h a i r I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e la s t t e n .

CHAIRPERSON:
20

MR WHITE:

J a , y e s o k a y.

C h a ir t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 3 2 D r S a v o i g o e s o n to s t a te :

“ B e t h a t a s i t m a y w h e n I n t a k a fi n a l ly r e c e iv e d p a y m e n t i n
e a r ly 2 0 0 7 I a s k e d Mr Ts h a b a la l a a b o u t th e is s u e o f t h e
d o n a ti o n t o t h e p a r ty, w h ic h h a d o r ig i n a ll y b e e n r a is e d r i g h t
a t t h e o u t s e t o f t h e in i ti a l d is c u s s i o n s i n K Z N .

H e in f o r m e d

m e th a t I n ta k a w o u ld b e s e n t a n i n v o i c e a g a i n s t w h i c h w e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
should make payment.

I a ls o n o t e t h a t a s a g e n e r a l y o u

m a k e p a y m e n t s f o r a n y g o o d s o r s e r v ic e s o n ly a g a i n s t
in v o ic e s a n d t h a t w e h a d b e e n i n f o r m e d b y p r o f e s s io n a l
a d v is o r s th a t w e s h o u l d a l w a y s o b ta in d o c u m e n t a ti o n in
s u p p o r t o f p a y m e n ts . ”
It goes on in paragraph 33:
“ S u b s e q u e n tly I r e c e i v e d a n i n v o ic e fr o m a fir m o f a t t o r n e y s
called Shezi and Gabone for an amount of R1 032 000
in c l u s i v e o f VAT, w h i c h in v o ic e w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly p a i d b y
10

Intaka.

I a tt a c h a c o p y o f t h e i n v o i c e a n d s u p p o r t in g

d o c u m e n t a ti o n f o r th e p a y m e n t . ”
H e t h e n g o e s o n , o n t h e fo ll o w i n g p a g e i n p a r a g r a p h s 3 4 a n d 3 5 to s a y :
“ I h a v e n o k n o w l e d g e o f w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h is m o n e y o n c e i t
h a d b e e n p a i d to t h e a t t o r n e y s a n d d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e
party in fact received it.

I have no acknowledgement of this.

H o w e v e r I c o n fir m t h a t n o l e g a l s e r v ic e s a s r e fe r r e d t o i n t h a t
in v o ic e w e r e e v e r r e n d e r e d t o I n t a k a b y t h e a t t o r n e y s
concerned.
A l th o u g h
20

I

acknowledge

th a t

it

is

incorrect

to

have

c a t e g o r is e d t h e d o n a t io n a s l e g a l e x p e n s e s I a m n o t f a m ili a r
w i t h t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h p o li ti c a l d o n a ti o n s a r e s o u r c e d a n d
d e a lt w i t h in S o u t h A f r ic a .

I m e r e ly r e s p o n d e d t o t h e

d ir e c t io n s o f M r Ts h a b a la la i n t h is r e g a r d .

I feel I should

a ls o a d d th a t M r Ts h a b a la la w a s o n e o f t h e m o s t h e l p fu l
o ffic i a ls w i th w h o m w e d e a l t w i t h in t h e K w a Z u lu N a t a l

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
P r o v i n c ia l g o v e r n m e n t a n d t h a t h e h a s n e v e r r e q u e s t e d a
p e r s o n a l d o n a ti o n f o r h i m s e l f fr o m m e .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ye s .

S o C h a ir o n I n t a k a ’s o w n v e r s io n t h e y l in k t h e p a y m e n t o f

t h is R 1 0 5 3 0 0 0 to t h e m o n e y t h e y r e c e i v e d fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f
J u d ic i a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t , s o t h a t ’s n o t j u s t a n in f e r e n c e I
a m m a k i n g th a t it is t h e s a m e m o n e y, th e y s a y i t i s th e s a m e m o n e y,
t h e is s u e o f a d o n a ti o n w a s d is c u s s e d w h e n w e f ir s t d is c u s s e d d o i n g
b u s i n e s s i n t h e p r o v i n c e w i th M r Ts h a b a l a l a , n o w th a t w e h a v e r e c e i v e d
10

a s ig n i f ic a n t p a y m e n t w e a s k e d h i m a b o u t it a n d h e a r r a n g e d e ffe c t iv e l y
fr a u d u l e n t d o c u m e n t a t i o n fr o m a t t o r n e y s t h a t d id n ’ t p r o v id e a s e r v ic e ,
h e e ff e c ti v e ly l a u n d e r e d t h e p r o c e e d s o f th is d o n a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C h a ir i t is m y s u b m is s io n t h a t t h a t w o u l d

e x p l a i n w h y th e i n v o ic e o r t h e a m o u n t p a i d w a s n ’ t e x a c t ly R 1 m i ll io n ,
t h e i n v o i c e w h i c h h a d b e e n r e q u e s t e d b y M r Ts h a b a l a la w a s t h e a m o u n t
o f R 1 0 5 3 0 0 0 a n d t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s u l t i m a te ly p a i d t o th e b e n e fi t o f
M r Ts h a b a l a l a w a s R 1 0 5 6 2 0 4 . 9 8 , i t is o n ly th a t d i ff e r e n c e , w i t h
r e s p e c t C h a ir, th a t c a n b e a c c o u n te d f o r b y i n t e r e s t a n d i t i s my
20

s u b m is s io n t h a t th e o n ly i n f e r e n c e f o r i t b e i n g m a d e i n t h a t a m o u n t is
t o d i s g u i s e t h e fa c t t h a t i t w a s a r o u n d fi g u r e m il li o n R a n d a n d n o t f o r
le g a l fe e s .
N o w i n y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s d id y o u d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r w e k n o w
fr o m f o l l o w in g t h e m o n e y, t h e m o n e y fr o m t h e tr u s t a c c o u n t i s u s e d t o
p a y M r a n d M r s Ts h a b a l a l a a n d e x p e n s e s i n r e s p e c t o f th e f a r m , it p a y s

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
t h e ir e x p e n s e s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR WHITE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

S o r r y, s o i t c a m e in t o t h e tr u s t a c c o u n t o f t h e

a tt o r n e y s a n d i t w e n t o u t to M r Ts h a b a l a l a ’s c r e d i to r s t h r o u g h th e s a m e
account.
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:
10

I t d i d n ’ t g o v ia t h e b u s in e s s a c c o u n t .

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w w e l l m a y b e la t e r y o u w i ll d e a l w i t h i t b u t

I w o u ld b e i n t e r e s te d t o k n o w h o w th e a t to r n e y s e x p l a i n e d n o t b e in g
p a i d f o r t h e ir s e r v ic e s .
MR WHITE:

T h e y d o n ’ t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

T h e y d o n ’ t?
T h e y w e r e m e r e ly fo ll o w i n g t h e in s t r u c t i o n s o f M r

Ts h a b a l a l a .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e y w e r e o w e d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e ir i n v o ic e a

c e r t a i n a m o u n t a n d t h e y s a id it is fo r l e g a l s e r v ic e s .
MR WHITE:
20

It w a s n ’ t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e y a d m it t h a t n o l e g a l s e r v ic e s h a d b e e n

provided?
MR WHITE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

C h a ir t h a t is w h y t h a t i n v o ic e c a n ’ t b e

p r o c e s s e d t h r o u g h t h e ir b u s i n e s s a c c o u n t o th e r w i s e t h e y a r e g o i n g to
pay tax on it.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , ja .

Page 142 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
MR WHITE:

S o t h a t ’s w h y i t s t a y e d in t h e t r u s t a c c o u n t a n d n e v e r

tr a n s fe r r e d a c r o s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , o k a y, th a n k y o u .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u d is c o v e r w h e t h e r t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

B u t is t h e r e a n e x p l a n a t io n w h y th e y a l lo w e d

t h e m s e l v e s t o d o s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s c le a r ly w r o n g ?
MR WHITE:

C h a i r t h e r e w a s n o e x p l a n a ti o n , b u t t h e o n e t h i n g th a t I

d o k n o w i s t h a t t h e y d i d s ig n i f ic a n t w o r k f o r th e P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t ,
a s a f ir m .
10

CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

S o th e y o n ly in f e r e n c e I c o u l d d r a w is t h a t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MR WHITE:

Ye s .

T h e y d id n o t w a n t t o d is a p p o i n t h i m ?

T h e y w e r e n o w k e e p in g M r Ts h a b a la la h a p p y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

S o i f t h e ir v e r s i o n is c o r r e c t M r Ts h a b a la l a s a i d

t o t h e m s e n d a n i n v o ic e t o In t a k a I n v e s t m e n t s f o r t h is a m o u n t , s a y t h a t
y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d l e g a l s e r v ic e s , k n o w i n g t h a t t h e y h a d n o t p r o v id e d
a n y l e g a l s e r v ic e s a n d t h e y d i d e x a c t ly t h a t , a l s o k n o w i n g t h a t th e y h a d
n o t p r o v i d e d a n y l e g a l s e r v ic e s .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d C h a i r i t d o e s n ’t s t o p th e r e .

D id y o u

d e t e r m i n e w h e t h e r th e m il li o n R a n d d o n a ti o n w a s e v e r p a i d t o t h e A N C ?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir t h e r e w a s , b e c a u s e th a t w a s w h e r e w e

u n d e r s t o o d fr o m t h e a ffi d a v it i t w a s u l ti m a t e ly . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : S w i tc h o n y o u r m ic r o p h o n e a g a i n . T h a n k y o u .

Page 143 of 158

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir i n q u i r i e s w e r e m a d e b e c a u s e th a t i s w h e r e t h e

m o n e y w a s u l t i m a te ly a c c o r d i n g t o D o c t o r S a v o i in t e n d e d t o g e t to a n d
in th a t r e g a r d t h e p r o s e c u t o r, o n e o f t h e p r o s e c u t o r s in v o lv e d in t h e
p r o c e s s e a r ly o n th e p r o s e c u t o r s c h a n g e d a n u m b e r o f t i m e s r e c e iv e d a
le t t e r

fr o m

Ngobani

W i ll s

In c o r p o r a te d

a

f ir m

of

a tt o r n e y s

in

P i e t e r m a r i tz b u r g a n d C h a ir t h a t – a c o p y o f th a t l e t t e r is a t T S W 2 9
w h ic h i s t h e l a s t t w o p a g e s i n R R 4 d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m t h e r e .
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r t h a t l e tt e r w h ic h is d a t e d t h e 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 0 i t
10

reads:
“ W e r e f e r to o u r p r e v i o u s c o r r e s p o n d e n c e r e g a r d in g t h e
a b o v e a n d a d v is e t h a t w e h a v e c o n s u lt e d w i t h a s e n i o r
m e m b e r o f o u r c l ie n t t h e A N C M E C M i c h a e l M a b u y a k h u l u
w h o a t t h e m a te r i a l ti m e w a s th e P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r e r o f
t h e A N C in K w a Z u l u N a t a l. W e a r e i n s tr u c t e d t o c o n v e y t o
y o u t h e f o ll o w i n g .
1 . T h a t i n h i s c a p a c i ty a s th e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r e r a t
t h e t i m e M a b u y a k h u l u a u t h o r is e d t h e r e c e i p t o f t h e
R 1 m i l li o n d o n a t i o n f r o m A N C m e m b e r M r S i p h o

20

S h a b a la l a .
2 . T h a t h e w is h e s t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h a t s u c h a
d o n a ti o n w a s r e c e i v e d i n c a s h a n d w a s v e r i fi e d to
b e R 1 mi ll i o n .
3 . T h a t h e M a b u y a k h u l u f u r th e r a u t h o r is e d t h e fu n d s t o
b e u til is e d f o r v a r i o u s p u r p o s e s r e la t e d t o t h e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
K w a Z u l u N a t a l A N C P r o v i n c i a l C o n fe r e n c e t h a t w a s
h e l d b e tw e e n 2 0 t h a n d 2 2 n d J u n e 2 0 0 8 . ”
C h a ir s o e ff e c ti v e ly M r M a b u y a k h u l u s a y s w e r e c e iv e d t h e m o n e y. I t i s
n o t q u i te t h e R 1 0 5 3 0 0 0 . 0 0 b u t i t i s n o w b e e n r o u n d e d to a R 1 m il li o n
a n d h e s a y s i t w a s r e c e iv e d a n d i t w a s r e c e iv e d i n c a s h .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w h e a ls o d e p o s e d t o a n a ff id a v i t d e a li n g

w i t h t h is a n d th a t is a t p a g e 1 8 5 4 . I f w e c o u l d d e a l w i t h t h a t f ir s t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y I m i s s e d th a t I w a s s ti ll l o o k i n g a t t h is

le t t e r f r o m N g o b a n i W il ls .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o r r y I j u s t w a n t t o c h e c k I h a v e th e

r e fe r e n c e r ig h t I t h i n k it is S W 1 6 .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t w a s c o r r e c t i t – 1 8 5 4 p a g e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: At page 1854.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S a m e E x h ib i t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t is Ex h ib i t D .
CHAIRPERSON: D?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 1854.
20

CHAIRPERSON: 1854.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .

A n d i f y o u c o u ld d e a l w i t h 1 8 5 5 fr o m

p a r a g r a p h 5 s o t h a t t h e C h a ir c a n s e e w h a t i t i s t h a t w a s s a i d ?
M R W H I T E : P a r a g r a p h 5 Mr M a b u y u k h u l u ’s a ffi d a v i t r e a d s a s f o l l o w s :
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

O h n o I a m lo o k i n g a t 1 9 8 4 .

1854?

Page 145 of 158

Yo u s a i d

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 1 8 5 4 a n d t h e n a t 1 8 5 5 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s t h i s is M r M a b u y u k h u l u ’s a ff i d a v i t . Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: So if you could…
CHAIRPERSON: What paragraph at 1855?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : P a r a g r a p h 5 a t 6 a n d 7 f ir s t .
M R W H I T E : C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 5 i t r e a d s a s f o ll o w s :
“ D u r i n g m y te n u r e a s Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r e r I w a s i n t e r
a l ia r e s p o n s i b l e fo r f u n d r a is i n g f o r t h e A N C . D u r i n g
2 0 0 5 I m a d e t h e c a l l t o th e A N C l e a d e r s h i p a n d
10

members to fundraise on behalf of the ANC.

The

f u n d s w e r e r e q u ir e d f o r t h e A N C ’s d a y t o d a y
a d m i n is tr a t i o n a n d f o r t h e A N C Pr o v i n c i a l C o n f e r e n c e
w h ic h w a s to t a k e p l a c e a t N d u mi s o Tr a in i n g C o l l e g e
during June 2008.

I r e c a ll t h a t M r S i p h o S h a b a l a l a

w a s o n e o f th o s e w h o u n d e r t o o k to r a is e f u n d s o n
behalf of the ANC.

Pr io r t o th e c o n f e r e n c e h e

in f o r m e d m e h e h a d f u n d r a i s e d a n d w i s h e d t o p a y
f u n d s t o t h e A N C . I d o n o t r e c a ll t h e e x a c t d a t e t h a t
h e in f o r m e d o f t h i s b u t I b e li e v e i t w a s a p p r o x i m a t e ly
20

t w o m o n t h s o r s o b e fo r e t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o n f e r e n c e .
T h e r e a f te r I r e c e iv e d p a y m e n t fr o m M r S h a b a l a l a i n
t h e a m o u n t o f R 1 m ill i o n . To th e b e s t o f r e c o l le c ti o n
I r e c e i v e d t h e f u n d s fr o m S h a b a l a l a o n o r a b o u t 11
June 2008.

T h e fu n d s w e r e r e c e iv e d s h o r tl y b e f o r e

t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o n fe r e n c e .

I w a s s ti ll th e A N C

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P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r e r a t t h e t i m e . I c o n fir m t h a t i t is
n o t t h e A N C ’s p o li c y t o d i s c lo s e w h e r e p r iv a t e
d o n a ti o n s a r e r e c e iv e d fr o m n o r is i t o u r p o lic y t o
d is c l o s e h o w t h e f u n d s w e r e s p e n t o r d is p e r s e d .
T h e s e a r e p r iv a t e m a t t e r s a n d n o t i n t h e p u b l ic
domain.

I c a n h o w e v e r s t a te t h a t th e f u n d s w e r e

u s e d b y m e t o d e fr a y e x p e n s e s a r i s i n g f r o m t h e t h e n
upcoming June 2008 conference.

Th e f u n d s w e r e

u s e d b y m e in m y c a p a c i ty a s P r o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r e r a t
t h e ti m e . ”

10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And then at paragraph 12 on page 1858 he

r e fe r s t o th e l e t te r fr o m N g o b a n i W i lls In c o r p o r a te d d a t e d th e 2
F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 0 w h i c h y o u h a v e a lr e a d y d e a l t w i t h .

What does he say

a b o u t t h a t?
MR WHITE:

S o C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 1 2 a t t h e b o t to m o f p a g e 1 8 5 8 h e

s t a te s :
“ A l l A N C le a d e r s w e r e r e q u e s t e d t o r a i s e f u n d s .
wish

to

c l a r if y

t h is

statement.

I

M abuyakhulu

a u t h o r i s e d t h e r e c e i p t o f t h e R 1 m i ll i o n d o n a t io n . M r
20

S h a b a la l a i n f o r m e d m e t h a t h e h a d r e c e iv e d f u n d s
a n d h e w is h e d to p a y t h e s e o v e r a s r e p o r t e d i n
paragraph 6 above. I do not know how and where Mr
S h a b a la l a r a is e d f u n d s .

I o n ly l e a r n t o f th e f u n d s

w h e n Mr S h a b a l a l a i n fo r m e d m e t h a t h e h a d f u n d s t o
p a y o v e r to t h e A N C .

W h e n h e i n f o r m e d m e o f th e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
f u n d s i t w a s a r r a n g e d t h a t I w o u ld m e e t h i m to
r e c e i v e t h e m fr o m h i m a n d d u l y d i d s o a t t h e d a te s e t
out above.

I d i d n o t s p e c i fi c a ll y a u t h o r is e t h e

r e c e i p t o f s p e c i fic f u n d s b u t f u n d r a is i n g in g e n e r a l .
I c o n f ir m th a t t h e f u n d s w e r e r e c e iv e d in c a s h a n d
w e r e u s e d b y m e t o d e fr a y c e r ta i n o f t h e e x p e n s e s o f
t h e c o n fe r e n c e a s s ta t e d a b o v e ”
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

N o w i n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n s

d i d y o u h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o e x a m i n e t h e b o o k s a n d r e c o r d s o f t h e
10

A N C a n d d e te r m in e w h e th e r th e s e fu n d s w e r e r e c o r d e d i n th e i r b o o k s
and records?
MR WHITE:

I d i d C h a ir.

W h i l e w e d id n o t h a v e t h e d e t a il r e c o r d s

b e h in d th e f i n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n ts th e fi n a n c i a l m a n a g e r o f t h e A N C a t t h e
ti m e w h i l e h e i n it i a ll y p r o v i d e d a s t a t e m e n t s a y i n g th e m o n e y w a s
r e c e i v e d . H e s u b s e q u e n t ly w i t h d r e w t h a t s t a te m e n t a n d s a i d t h e r e w a s
n o k n o w l e d g e – h e h a d n o k n o w le d g e o f t h e m o n e y b e i n g r e c e i v e d , n o
in v o ic e – s o r r y n o r e c e ip t w a s is s u e d a n d i t w a s n o t a c c o u n t e d f o r i n
the ANC records.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

And Chair if I can refer you to those two

a ffi d a v i ts n o w. T h e o n e i s d a t e d t h e 4 M a y 2 0 0 9 a n d a p p e a r s a t p a g e
1843.
CHAIRPERSON: 18?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : 4 3 i n th e s a m e b u n d le C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 4 3 . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o t h is is t h e 4 M a y 2 0 0 9 a n d w h a t d id h e s a y

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
in t h a t a ffi d a v i t ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i n th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h h e s a y s :
“ I n th e c o u r s e o f m y d u t i e s I c o n fir m t h a t a d o n a ti o n
o f R 1 m i ll io n w a s r e c e iv e d b y t h e A f r ic a n N a ti o n a l
Congress from a donor who I am advised was a
c e r t a i n D o c t o r S a v o i. ”
Then in paragraph 3:
“ M r S i p h o S h a b a l a l a h a d a d v is e d t h e o r g a n is a ti o n
t h a t s u c h a d o n a t io n h a d b e e n m a d e a n d w h e n t h e
10

money was requested Mr Shabalala brought the
m o n e y to o u r o ff ic e s i n c a s h . ”
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Now if we can look at page 1845 and just

m o r e th a n a y e a r l a t e r …
CHAIRPERSON:

Well he does also say in paragraph 4 he was aware

t h a t t h e m o n e y w a s u ti lis e d t o p a y f o r v a r i o u s s e r v ic e p r o v id e r – t o p a y
v a r io u s s e r v ic e p r o v id e r s f o r i te m s r e l a te d t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o n g r e s s
h e l d i n A u g u s t 2 0 0 8 . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir I a p o l o g is e f o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Fo r [i n d is t in c t ] t h a t .

O k a y n o w a li t tl e m o r e

t h a n a y e a r la t e r o n t h e 3 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 0 o n p a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h is w a s – I a m s o r r y t h is w a s 2 0 0 9 w h e n ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: 4 May 2009.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d e p o s e d t o th is a ffi d a v i t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d n o w w e h a v e a y e a r l a te r th e 3 0 A u g u s t
2 0 1 0 o n p a g e 1 8 4 5 w h a t d i d h e th e n s a y ?
M R W H I T E:

S o C h a ir e ff e c t iv e ly w h a t h e n o w s a y s i s t h a t – t h a t

s t a te m e n t t h a t h e s ig n e d w a s p r e p a r e d b y N g o b a n i W il ls A t t o r n e y s . H e
w a s – i t w a s j u s t b r o u g h t t o h i m , h e s i g n e d i t a n d h e d id n o t h a v e
k n o w l e d g e o f i t . H e th e n g o e s o n to s a y t h a t a n d i f I c a n r e f e r t o p a g e
1 8 4 6 a t p a r a g r a p h 7 .2 w h e r e it s t a t e s :
“ A f e w w e e k s l a t e r I r e c e iv e d a c a l l f r o m M s S
10

N g o b a n i W il ls I n c o r p o r a t e d a d v is i n g m e t h a t th e r e is
a m a tt e r u n d e r in v e s ti g a t io n b y t h e S o u th A fr ic a n
P o lic e

S e r v ic e s

Commercial

Crime

r e l a ti n g

to

d o n a ti o n s r e c e i v e d b y t h e A N C K Z N . S h e h a d f u r t h e r
a d v is e d t h a t s h e is a c t i n g f o r A N C K Z N i n t h e m a t te r
a n d s h e a s k e d m e t o s i g n a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t s h e h a d
p r e p a r e d g iv i n g t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s o f t h e d o n a ti o n . ”
S o C h a ir h e th e n i n t h e f o l l o w in g p a g e a t 1 8 4 7 t h e a ffi d a v it is b a d l y
w r i t t e n b e c a u s e h e e ff e c ti v e ly a n s w e r s q u e s ti o n s t h a t h a d b e e n s e n t t o
h i m C h a ir. B u t i n B u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 8 h e t h e n – h e s ta t e s :
20

“I

have

r e q u ir e d .

no

personal

k n o w le d g e

of

the

answer

T h e s e q u e s t io n s m u s t b e d ir e c t e d t o t h e

la w y e r w h o p r e p a r e d t h e a ffi d a v i t f o r – o n m y
behalf.”
And then C.
“ I w a s i n fo r m e d b y M r M a b u y a k h u lu I h a v e n o

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e a n d d e ta ils o f t h e d o n a ti o n u s e d
t o p a y f o r t h e it e m s n o t p a i d f o r b y th e o ff i c e r s o f t h e
ANC KZN.

T h e q u e s ti o n c a n b e d ir e c t e d to M r

M a b u y a k h u lu s a v e fo r t h e la s t p a r a g r a p h w h e r e I
e x p l a i n h o w t h e s t a te m e n t w a s c o m m i s s i o n e d o n 2 9
August 2009.

I r e c e iv e d a n e m a il a tt a c h e d –

a tt a c h e d a n a ff id a v i t fr o m M s S N g o b a n i a n d s h e to ld
m e t o h a v e i t s i g n e d a n d c o m m is s i o n e d a n d I t o o k i t
t o t h e B r o a d S tr e e t P o l ic e S t a t io n . ”
10

And then D.
“ I h a v e n o i d e a I d id n o t in v e s ti g a t e th is m a t te r.

I

have no knowledge. My sources are Mr M abuyakhulu
a n d th e l a w y e r. ”
A n d t h e E o n t h e n e x t – la s t p a g e :
“ I t h e r e f o r e r e q u e s t t o w i t h d r a w t h e i n i ti a l a ffi d a v it
w h ic h w a s p r o v id e d to m e t o s i g n . ”
C h a ir e ff e c t iv e l y h e d is t a n c e s h i m s e l f f r o m t h e f ir s t a ffi d a v i t w h ic h h e
d i d n o t p r e p a r e a n d h e d i s t a n c e s h i m s e l f fr o m t h e f a c t s c o n t a i n e d
t h e r e in .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t t h i s is – t h is is s o m e b o d y w h o h a s a B . C o m

d e g r e e , B . C o m a c c o u n t in g . H e i s a fi n a n c ia l m a n a g e r. H e i s to ld t h a t
t h e a ffi d a v i t h e is g o i n g t o – h e is b e in g a s k e d t o s ig n i s c o n n e c t e d w i t h
p o li c e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . C le a r ly h e is g o in g t o h a v e a lo o k a t th a t a ff id a v i t
c a r e fu ll y b e fo r e h e t a k e s a n o a th a n d s i g n s it . D i d h e e v e r e x p l a i n t h a t
p a r t t o y o u h o w h e c o u l d h a v e s ig n e d s u c h a n a ffi d a v it k n o w i n g t h a t

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
t h is w a s c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e p o lic e in v e s t ig a ti o n s ?

Ev e n i f it w a s n o t

c o n n e c t e d w i t h p o l ic e i n v e s t i g a t io n s h o w c o u l d t h e y – h o w c o u l d h e j u s t
s ig n

such

an

a ff id a v i t

without

u n d e r s ta n d i n g

that

he

was

m is r e p r e s e n t in g t h e p o s i t io n a t le a s t a s fa r a s h e w a s c o n c e r n e d ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir i t is i n e x p l ic a b le . T h e r e is n o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : J u s t i fi c a t io n fo r w h a t h e d id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : A n d i t a p p e a r s t h a t m a n y f o r w a n t o f a b e t te r w o r d j u n io r
10

p e o p l e i n th e s e d i ff e r e n t o r g a n i s a t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : J u s t d i d w h a t th e y w e r e t o l d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : W i th o u t t h in k i n g o f th e p o t e n t ia l c o n s e q u e n c e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B u t a t l e a s t th a t i s w h a t h e s h o u l d b e s a y i n g .

H e s h o u ld b e s a y i n g i n t h e s e c o n d a ff id a v i t th is is h o w it c a m e a b o u t .
T h i s is w h a t I w a s t o l d . I s i g n e d b e c a u s e o f th is a n d t h a t a n d t h a t b u t
t o j u s t s a y t h a t i t is a n a ff i d a v i t t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d b y s o m e b o d y e ls e
a n d i t w a s g i v e n to y o u a n d y o u s i g n e d . B e c a u s e w h e n h e s a y s t h a t h e
20

w a n ts u s to b e li e v e th a t w h e n h e s i g n e d t h a t a ffi d a v i t h e d i d n o t k n o w
w h a t i t w a s s a y i n g . B e c a u s e if h e k n e w w h a t it w a s s a y in g t h e q u e s t io n
is h o w d id y o u ta k e a n o a th a n d d e p o s e t o i t i f w h a t i t w a s s a y i n g w a s
n o t tr u e ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir I a g r e e a n d i t is – i t i s n o t lik e i t i s a t h ic k a ff id a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
M R W H I T E : I t i s a fe w li n e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it is p o s s i b le t h a t it w a s n o t t r u e w h a t w a s t h e r e
a n d h e k n e w i t b u t m a y b e th e r e w a s s o m e p r e s s u r e , h e w a s s c a r e d , I
d o n o t k n o w b u t h e d o e s n o t s a y t h a t i t s e e m s i n h is s e c o n d a ffi d a v i t to
s a y, l o o k I d id n o t t h i n k I h a d a c h o ic e a n d I h a v e h a d ti m e to r e fl e c t o n
t h is . N o w I a m c h a n g i n g m y m i n d .
M R W H I T E : I a g r e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

C h a ir h e a l s o s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 3 o n p a g e

1845:
“That

as

a

financial

manager

my

d u ti e s

and

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s i n v o l v e f in a n c ia l m a n a g e m e n t a n d
b o o k k e e p i n g a n d w h e n w e r e c e iv e d o n a ti o n s w e
f o ll o w A N C in t e r n a l p r o c e s s e s . ”
B u t w e k n o w a s a m a tt e r o f f a c t fr o m M r W h i t e ’s e x a m i n a t io n o f th e
A N C ’s b o o k s a n d r e c o r d s t h a t t h e r e i s n o r e fe r e n c e t o t h i s d o n a t i o n h e
p r e v i o u s ly s a i d h a d b e e n r e c e iv e d . A n d s u r e ly i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e
p u r v e y o f i ts d u ti e s h e s a y s h i m s e l f h e h a d t h a t i t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n
recorded.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d M r S a v o i e x p l a i n w h y i n h is c o m p a n y ’s r e c o r d s h e
r e fl e c t e d t h a t t h i s p a y m e n t t o t h e s e a t t o r n e y s w a s fo r l e g a l s e r v i c e s i f
h is – i f i t w a s fo r a d o n a t i o n ?
M R W H I T E:
corrected.

Chair he just went to say it was wrong and it was
I n a r e v i e w o f h is r e c o r d s I n o t e d t h a t in i ti a l ly i t w a s

a c c o u n t e d f o r a s le g a l s e r v ic e s a n d i t w a s s u b s e q u e n tly c h a n g e d s o m e

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
ti m e la t e r to r e fl e c t th a t i t w a s a d o n a t i o n . S o C h a ir i t a p p e a r s th a t t h e
in it i a l a t t e m p t w a s t o h i d e w h a t it a c t u a ll y w a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d t h e q u e s ti o n is , w h y w o u l d – w h y w o u ld

t h e y h id e – h id e i t i f it w a s a d o n a ti o n ?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a i r th e r e w o u l d b e n o – i f i t w a s a d o n a ti o n t h a t w a s
n o t a s a r e p a y m e n t f o r r e c e iv i n g w o r k – s o if i t w a s ju s t a d o n a ti o n
t h e r e w o u ld b e n o n e e d t o h i d e it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : B u t t h e p r o b le m w i t h t h i s d o n a ti o n is it w a s a c t u a ll y l in k e d
10

t o ir r e g u la r ly b e i n g a w a r d e d a c o n tr a c t f o r s o m e R 5 0 m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a b u t t h e p o in t is if i t w a s a g e n u in e d o n a ti o n ,
a b o n a f i d e d o n a ti o n th e n th e r e w a s n o t h i n g t o h i d e . Yo u h i d e i t i f y o u
f e e l t h a t i t is w r o n g b e c a u s e i t i s c o n n e c t e d w i t h w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t
got.
M R W H I T E:

C h a ir I a g r e e a n d a ls o i f i t w a s a g e n u i n e d o n a ti o n y o u

w o u ld e x p e c t it b e r e c o r d e d a s s u c h . B u t a l s o p a y i t to t h e e n ti t y y o u
d o n a ti n g t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R W H I T E : Yo u w o u l d n o t p a y v i a …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a t t o r n e y s w h o s e n t y o u …
M R W H I T E : Tr u s t a c c o u n t s .
CHAIRPERSON:
s e r v ic e s .

W h o s e n d y o u a n i n v o ic e t h a t s a y s i t is fo r le g a l

W e l l m a y b e h e w i ll b e a b le to e x p l a i n o r s o m e o f t h e

i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s w i ll b e a b le t o e x p la i n s o m e o f t h i n g s t h a t d o n o t
s e e m t o m a k e s e n s e a t t h i s s ta g e . T h a n k y o u .

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d M r W h it e i f y o u c a n j u s t r e m i n d th e C h a ir
a t t h i s s ta g e w h a t w a s M r M a b u y a k h u l u ’s p o s i t io n i n t h e A N C ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y – w h y is i t d i ff ic u l t t o s a y M a b u y a k h u l u ? I t is s o
simple.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a i r I k n o w C h a ir y o u k n o w u n fo r t u n a t e ly

a n d i t is a m a r k o f o u r p a s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t b e c a u s e I a m s u r e a ll o f y o u i f I s a y H o n o l u lu
y o u w il l s a y H o n o l u l u . S o w h y c a n y o u n o t s a y M a b u y a k h u lu ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

My – v e r y, v e r y s a d ly i t is – t h e r e – i t is

in e x p l ic a b l e b u t I f in d i t te r r i b l y d i ffic u l t t o g e t m y – m y s e l f a r o u n d a l o t
o f t h e w o r d s a n d e v e n t h e s p e l li n g b e c a u s e I n e v e r le a r n t a n A fr ic a n
la n g u a g e a n d i t is a – i t i s a t r a v e s ty a n d I a m t e r r i b ly e m b a r r a s s e d b y
it a n d e v e r y ti m e I h a v e t o s a y a n a m e I a m b l u s h i n g in s i d e a n d f e e l in g
t e r r i b ly s h y.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I c a n – I c a n u n d e r s ta n d – I c a n u n d e r s t a n d

w h e n i t c o m e s t o c e r t a i n w o r d s b u t I j u s t s e e M a b u y a k h u l u a s s o e a s y.
A n d a ls o t h e o n ly – th e o n ly a lp h a b e t y o u s e e m to h a v e a p r o b l e m
p r o n o u n c i n g is U .

T h i s is n o t li k e c e r ta i n n a m e s a n d s u r n a m e s th a t

c o u l d r e a ll y b e s e e n a s d i ffi c u l t . I t is U – U – H o n o l u lu , M a b u y a k h u l u .
20

ADV

SUSAN

WENTZEL:

I k n o w.

That

is

a

cause

of

huge

more

than

e m b a r r a s s m e n t to m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t r e a l ly i s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV

SUSAN

WENTZEL:

And

a c t u a lly

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h u m il ia t io n

21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
embarrassment.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I c a n te ll y o u I – I h a v e n a m e s t h a t I s t r u g g l e

t h a t a r e n o t m y – i n m y la n g u a g e – m y l a n g u a g e my s e l f y o u k n o w b u t I
– all – the only point I am making here is I was trying to understand
b e c a u s e i t s e e m s t o m e th a t i t s h o u l d b e e a s y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: It should be.
CHAIRPERSON:

O t h e r w is e I d o a c c e p t t h a t w h e n it i s n o t y o u r

la n g u a g e t h e r e c o u l d b e n a m e s t h a t y o u c a n n o t – y o u c a n s tr u g g l e t o
p r o n o u n c e . Yo u k n o w i t h a p p e n s w i th m e in r e g a r d t o la n g u a g e s t h a t I
10

– I d o n o t – a r e n o t my o w n . Ye s b u t th a t i s fi n e . L e t u s c o n ti n u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W h a t w a s M r M a b u y a k h u l u ’s – I h o p e i t w a s

s li g h t ly b e t t e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I g iv e u p .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h a t w a s h is p o s it io n i n t h e A N C ?
M R W H I T E : C h a ir M r M a b u y a k h u l u ’s p o s i ti o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s m u c h b e t te r.
M R W H I T E:

P o s it o n – h e w a s t h e P r o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y i n K w a Z u lu

Natal.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h a t w a s h is p o s i ti o n i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t ?
20

M R W H I T E:

S o C h a ir h is p o li ti c a l p o s i ti o n w a s – h e w a s n o t i n t h e

a d m i n is tr a t i o n b u t h e w a s t h e M E C o f Tr a d it i o n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l
Government.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s t h e p o li ti c a l h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
M R W H I T E : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t w a s h is in v o lv e m e n t in t h i s

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21 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 202
c o n tr a c t?
M R W H I T E : S o C h a ir h e w a s – a n u m b e r o f th e d o c u m e n ts p a s s e d h i s
d e s k fo r w a n t o f a b e t te r w o r d in t h e l e a d u p .

So I have referred to

d o c u m e n ts r e la t in g t o t h e t r a n s f e r o f t h e m o n e y fr o m t h e P o v e r t y
A ll e v i a t i o n F u n d . T h a t th e r e w e r e m e m o r a n d a p r e p a r e d th a t a m o n g s t
o th e r s c a m e t o h i m . S o h e k n e w t h a t t h e p r o j e c t w a s h a p p e n i n g . H e
w a s a ls o – h e o p e n e d i t w h e n t h e fir s t o n e w a s i n s ta ll e d . S o i t is n o t
t h a t h e d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t In t a k a a n d w h a t i t w a s a b o u t . S o j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir I h a v e n o w i f w e h a v e r e g a r d to t h e

d i a g r a m a t A n n e x u r e T S W 1 9 d e a l t w it h th e o n e s i d e o f t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n
a n d t h a t i s in t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f t h e w a t e r p u r i fi c a t io n p la n ts b y t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f Tr a d i ti o n a l A ff a ir s a n d L o c a l G o v e r n m e n t .

The other

s id e o f th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n in v o lv e d t h e p r o c u r e m e n t b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
H e a lt h i n K w a Zu l u N a ta l f o r b o t h w a t e r p u r i fi c a t io n p l a n ts . I f i n d
d i ff ic u l ti e s w i t h s o m e E n g lis h w o r d s a n d a l s o w i t h o x y g e n s e l fg e n e r a ti n g o x y g e n p la n ts a n d s o m e d i a ly s is m a c h i n e s . C h a ir i t i s f o u r
o ’c l o c k a n d I a m g o i n g to n e e d s o m e t i m e t o a l s o e x p l a i n t h o s e
tr a n s a c ti o n s . W o u ld it b e a n a p p r o p r i a te t i m e t o t a k e a n a d j o u r n m e n t ?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

H o w l o n g d o y o u t h in k – d o y o u e s ti m a t e w e m i g h t

n e e d t o fi n is h w it h M r W h i te ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir I a m h o p i n g t o fi n i s h h is e v i d e n c e b y

lu n c h ti m e t o m o r r o w a n d t h e n th e a f t e r n o o n t h e tw o r e m a in in g
witnesses should be short.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I d o n o t b e l ie v e t h e y s h o u l d b e m o r e t h a n a n
hour each.
CHAIRPERSON:

H m . O k a y a lr ig h t . M r W h i t e I ta k e i t th a t y o u w e r e

w a r n e d t h a t y o u c o u l d b e i n t h a t s e a t f o r t w o a n d a h a lf d a y s ?
M R W H I T E : I w a s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . A lr i g h t . W e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n f o r th e d a y a n d
w e w ill s t a r t a t t e n o ’c l o c k t o m o r r o w.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
10

I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 2 J A N U A R Y 2 0 2 0

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