C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 20 AUGUST 2019 D AY 1 4 8 20 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 HEARING RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Good morning Ms Gcabashe, good morning e v e r y b o d y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e w e r e a d y ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s w e a r e C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e h a v e ju s t f i n is h e d t w e lv e m o n th s s i n c e t h e c o m m i s s io n s t a r t e d h e a r in g o r a l e v i d e n c e a n d w e w ill i s s u e a s t a t e m e n t t o m a r k t h is p e r io d m a y b e to m o r r o w a n d m a y b e I w i ll r e a d i t o u t h e r e o r 10 w e w il l j u s t is s u e i t b u t i t is q u i t e a l o n g w a y t h a t w e h a v e tr a v e ll e d b u t t h e r e is s t il l q u i t e s o m e d i s ta n c e t o t r a v e l . S o i t is n o t o u r b i r t h d a y b u t it is a m il e s t o n e . O k a y t h a n k y o u l e t u s – I th in k l e t u s c o n t in u e t h e n . M r Th a b e t h e t h a n k y o u fo r c o m i n g b a c k . Yo u h a d t a k e n a n o a t h l a s t w e e k t h a t o a th s til l a p p l i e s a n d y o u c o n f ir m t h a t y o u s ti ll c o n s i d e r i t binding on your conscience this week? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I d o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a n k – t h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . Mr T h a b e th e g o o d m o r n i n g . 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : G o o d m o r n i n g Ms . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: J u s t i n a n u t s h e l l w h a t w e d e a l t w i th la r g e l y l a s t w e e k w a s t h e r e g u l a t o r y fr a m e w o r k t h a t g iv e s e ff e c t t o S e c t io n s 2 1 5 , 2 1 6 , 2 1 7 a n d o f c o u r s e e v e r y t h in g e ls e th a t g iv e s e ffe c t to these c o n s ti t u ti o n a l ill u s tr a ti o n s . p r o v is io n s and we went through some W h a t I w o u l d l ik e to d o t o d a y b e c a u s e ti m e is o f t h e Page 2 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 essence. W e w i ll s e e i f w e c a n tr y a n d fi n i s h l e a d i n g y o u r e v id e n c e t o d a y is g o e s s tr a i g h t to th e d e v ia t i o n fr o m t h e S u p p ly Chain M a n a g e m e n t P o l ic y a n d P r e s c r ip ts t h a t y o u u s e d i n a p p o in t in g E s ti n a a s t h e i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n t fo r t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o je c t . I k n o w w e h a v e t a lk e d a b o u t i t i n g e n e r a l . I n o w w a n t t o s p e c i fi c a ll y d e a l w i t h th e is s u e a n d a s k y o u t o e x p l a in f ir s t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n y o u s a y y o u g a v e t o D o c t o r M a s i t e n g in p r e p a r i n g th e s u b m is s i o n t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g to s i g n . P l e a s e ta k e t h e – p l e a s e t a k e th e C h a ir m a n t h r o u g h t h a t s p e c if ic d is c u s s io n w i t h D o c t o r M a s i te n g w h o w a s C h ie f D ir e c t o r D i s t r ic t 10 S e r v ic e s a t t h e ti m e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. I w o u ld n o t c o n s i d e r i t a s a n i n s tr u c ti o n C h a ir b e c a u s e i t w a s a g r e e d u p o n . A n d i n s t r u c t i o n is s o m e t h in g t h a t y o u – y o u d e c id e a lo n e a n d in s t r u c t . T h e – l a s t w e e k I e x p l a in e d h o w t h e i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n ts w e r e – w e r e b e i n g a p p o in t e d i n l in e w i t h th e b u d g e t a ll o c a t io n . W e – i n th is in s t a n c e w e a ls o fo ll o w e d t h e s a m e r o u te b u t w e t h e n a g r e e d b e c a u s e o f th e r e a s o n t h a t w e h a d a g r e e d t h a t t h e i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t w h ic h w a s a ls o a t th e s a m e t i m e t h e fu n d e r o f t h e s a m e p r o je c ts w h e r e t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n i s g o i n g to t a k e p l a c e . W e l o o k e d a t t h e s e o p ti o n s a n d 20 t h e n w e – w e d e c id e d t h a t w e c a n n o t g o o n t e n d e r w h e n t h e e x p e r ti s e t h a t w e r e q u ir e i t i s i n t h e i m p le m e n t e r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C a n I j u s t in t e r r u p t y o u p le a s e d o n o t f o r g e t t h e r e s t o f w h a t y o u w e r e g o in g to t e l l th e C h a ir m a n Mr T h a b e th e . I h a v e a s l ig h t d i ff ic u l ty w it h w e b e c a u s e I a m n o t s u r e w h o w e r e la t e s t o . C a n y o u j u s t e x p l a i n w h o w e a r e ? Page 3 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: We chase the department. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d th e n m o r e s p e c i fi c a ll y w i t h i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e I a s k t h i s b e c a u s e D o c t o r M a s it e n g ’s e v i d e n c e i s t h a t h e h a d n o p r io r k n o w l e d g e o f t h is u n t il y o u a s k e d h i m . In f a c t t h e w o r d y o u u s e h e r e y o u r e q u e s t e d h i m t o p r e p a r e t h e s u b m is s i o n . S o it is i m p o r ta n t t o fi n d o u t w h o t h e p e r s o n a l i t ie s w e r e e v e n i f i t is i n t h e ir o ffic i a l c a p a c i ti e s w h o w e r e a s s i s t i n g y o u . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: J a C h a ir – C h a ir t h e – lik e I h a v e in d i c t e d th e r e w a s n o t a n y in s t r u c t i o n g i v e n . B e c a u s e d is c u s s io n s w e r e 10 being made in meetings so we had agreed that we were not going to f o ll o w a s a d e p a r t m e n t i n t e r m s o f t h e m a n a g e m e n t p a r t . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y n o I t h i n k l e t u s – w a s t h e d e c i s i o n n o t t o f o ll o w t e n d e r p r o c e s s e s a s d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s ta k e n in a m e e ti n g a n d i f s o w h o w e r e th e p a r t ic i p a n t s i n t h a t m e e t i n g ? Then one can u n d e r s t a n d t h e w e if th a t is t h e c a s e . W a s i t a d e c is i o n t h a t w a s ta k e n in a m e e t in g ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a C h a ir – C h a ir I w o u ld m e n ti o n three people. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o le t u s s t a r t w i th w a s i t i n a m e e ti n g ? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s i n a m e e t in g d is c u s s e d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y j a w h o w e r e th e p a r ti c i p a n ts in t h e m e e ti n g ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t w a s m y s e l f, th e C F O a n d t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r D o c to r M a s i t e n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : H e n c e h e t h e n d r a ft e d t h e s u b m i s s i o n Page 4 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 h e s e n t i t to t h e C F O a n d i t w a s th e n g iv e n to m e f o r a p p r o v a l . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t is i t n o t c o r r e c t M r T h a b e t h e t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t was g iv e n to d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t y o u p r o v id e d . Doctor M a s i te n g is D o c to r – H e h a d n o t b e e n in v o lv e d in t h e E s ti n a m a t t e r a t a l l p r i o r to t h is m e e t in g th a t y o u r e fe r t o . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o i t is n o t tr u e C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: P l e a s e g iv e u s t h e f a c ts a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h e m a t t h e ti m e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e C h a ir it w il l – r e m e m b e r h e 10 is t h e c u s t o d ia n – h e w a s t h e c u s to d i a n o f t h e b u d g e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is D o c t o r M a s it e n g ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Doctor M asiteng. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: S o h e w o u ld n o t h a v e h e a r d fo r t h e fir s t ti m e t h a t w e g o i n g t o – b e c a u s e h e is t h e o n e w h o g o e s t o N a t io n a l a n d m a k e p r e s e n t a t i o n s o f a ll p r o je c ts t h a t w e w a n t t o i m p l e m e n t. S o i t c a n n o t b e t h a t h e h e a r d a b o u t t h e p r o je c t fo r th e f ir s t ti m e . B e c a u s e i f h e h a d g o n e t o N a ti o n a l I h a d a ls o w e n t t o N a t io n a l w i t h h i m t o g o a n d p r e s e n t th is e x a c t p r o j e c t . 20 So it could not have b e e n f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w d o n o t f o r g e t M r Th a b e t h e th a t t h a t fir s t s u b m i s s i o n t h a t w a s s i g n e d w a s s i g n e d o n t h e 2 6 M a y 2 0 1 2 . D o c to r M a s i t e n g w a s o u t o f t h e c o u n t r y a t t h a t p o in t in ti m e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a g r e e C h a ir b u t h e k n e w a b o u t the project even before he left. Page 5 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W e ll t h a t w a s n o t h is e v i d e n c e . T h e C h a ir m a n w il l w e i g h u p th e t w o d i ff e r e n t v e r s io n s in d u e c o u r s e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Please – please continue. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a I a m j u s t m e n t io n in g i t th a t i t c a n n o t b e th a t fo r t h e f ir s t ti m e y o u a r e – h e w a s in f o r m e d to m a k e a s u b m is s io n b e c a u s e it w o u ld h a v e b e e n a p r o b l e m f o r h i m t h a t y o u a r r iv e a n d y o u s a y t o h i m m a k e a s u b m is s io n w e w a n t t o d e v i a t e fo r a p r o j e c t th a t h e h a s n o t s e e n . 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: J u s t a g a i n t o g o b a c k t o th e fa c ts a s I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d th e m t o d a t e . T h e f ir s t s u b m is s io n w a s m a d e o n t h e b a s is o f d o c u m e n t a t i o n . T h e s u b m is s i o n t h a t D o c to r M a s i t e n g m a d e i n July in – I beg your pardon – in June when he got back was a s u b m is s io n t h a t in c l u d e d t h e d e v i a ti o n . S o th e fir s t s u b m i s s i o n d i d n o t in c l u d e th e d e v i a ti o i n . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A c o ll e a g u e o f h is w h o w a s a c t in g s ig n e d on his behalf. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: That is the 26 May documentation. But w h a t y o u r i n s tr u c ti o n a s I h a v e p u t i t y o u h a v e p u t i t a s y o u r – a r e q u e s t w h e n I l o o k a t y o u r a ff id a v i t . W h a t y o u s a i d t o D o c t o r M a s i t e n g w a s th a t h e h a d to p u t i n th e d e v i a ti o n b e c a u s e y o u h a d a lr e a d y b e e n t o E X C O a n d E X C O h a d a lr e a d y g i v e n y o u t h e a u th o r it y o r i ts p e r m is s io n to i m p l e m e n t t h e p r o je c t. A r e t h e s e f a c ts in c o r r e c t ? Page 6 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: No, no. E X C O d i d n o t g iv e u s p e r m is s io n to d e v i a t e t h e … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o , n o I s a i d t o i m p le m e n t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e p r o je c t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I d id n o t s a y d e v i a t e . Yo u t o o k t h e d e c is i o n t o d e v ia t e M r Th a b e t h e a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e f a c ts . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Th e r e f o r e 10 a ft e r th e s u b m is s i o n o f t h e s u b m i s s i o n g i v e n th e f a c t s t h a t w e h a d a ls o in d i c a t e d in th e d e v ia t io n i ts e l f t h a t w e t h e n d e v i a te fr o m f o l l o w i n g n o r m a l p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s . Tw o r e a s o n s . 1 . Wa s t h a t t h e – w e n e e d e d t h e e x p e r t is e o f Es t in a / P a r a s to a s s is t u s w it h t h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n b e c a u s e i f w e w o u ld g o o n a t e n d e r i t means we w il l get somebody e ls e responsible for th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n h e n c e w e l o o k e d fo r t h e e x p e r t is e t h a t P a r a s had. That is – was one of the reason? 2 . S e c o n d ly i t w a s t h e r e a s o n th a t th e y w e r e a ls o g o in g to b e fi n a n c i a l s o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d i f w e a s g o v e r n m e n t g o o n t e n d e r i t 20 m a y m e a n t h a t w e w il l n o t b e a b l e t o g o a n d t e n d e r o n b e h a l f o f w h a t th e y w i ll b e i n c l u d i n g i n to t h e p r o j e c t . That those were … ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Can I – continue. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Th o s e w e r e th e t w o m a i n r e a s o n s C h a ir w h y … Page 7 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I i n t e r r o g a t e th o s e r e a s o n s w it h y o u ? CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y – I a m s o r r y. Let me just get it. Just a r ti c u la t e th o s e tw o r e a s o n s a g a i n t h e y a r e g o i n g t o b e v e r y i m p o r t a n t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a t h e fi r s t r e a s o n C h a i r w a s t h a t w e w i ll – t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o f i n a n c e th e p r o j e c t t h e m s e lv e s . Th e r e fo r e i f w e g o a n d te n d e r w e s h o u l d a ls o i n c l u d e t h e ir m o n e y i n t h e t e n d e r w h ic h m e a n s w e w o u l d h a v e t h e n g o n e o n a d i ff e r e n t p r o c e s s th a t w o u ld b e – t h a t w a s t h e f ir s t p a r t. T h e s e c o n d p a r t w a s t h e e x p e r ti s e t h a t w e r e q u ir e d th e m t o a s s is t u s i n i m p l e m e n t i n g t h e p r o j e c t . S o w e 10 w a n t e d t h e m t o i m p le m e n t b e c a u s e t h e f a c il i ty t h a t w e w a n t e d t h e m t o d o i s a lr e a d y w h a t w e h a v e s e e n i n I n d i a . T h a t is o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y w e d id n o t w a n t t o g o o n te n d e r a n d a d v e r tis e f o r a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r. CHAIRPERSON: So two reasons. 1 . B e c a u s e th e y w e r e g o i n g t o fi n a n c e t h e p r o j e c t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 2 . B e c a u s e o f t h e e x p e r tis e w h ic h t h e y t h r o u g h P a r a s w o u l d b r i n g . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. W e – t h e t h ir d r e a s o n w o u l d b e a l s o w h i c h I h a v e e x p l a i n e d l a s t w e e k t h a t t h is m o n e y w a s a ll o c a te d u n d e r tr a n s f e r s . I t w a s n o t u n d e r g o o d s a n d s e r v ic e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o – b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s th a t y o u – y o u s a i d i f m o n e y w a s a ll o c a te d u n d e r tr a n s f e r s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e te n d e r p r o c e d u r e s d i d n o t a p p ly. Page 8 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: A n d m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t w h e n y o u t a lk a b o u t d e v i a ti o n i t is w h e r e t e n d e r p r o c e d u r e s d o a p p ly b u t y o u n e e d g o o d g r o u n d s t o d e v i a te f r o m t h o s e p r o c e d u r e s . Th a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g . S o h o w – t h e t w o a p p e a r t o b e m u t u a ll y e x c lu s i v e t o m e . It is e i th e r t h e t e n d e r p r o c e d u r e s a p p l y o r d o n o t a p p ly. I f t h e y d o n o t a p p ly y o u c a n n o t t a lk a b o u t d e v ia t io n . I f t h e y d o a p p ly t h e n d e p e n d i n g o n t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s y o u m a y – a d e v i a ti o n m a y b e a p p li c a b l e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: 10 T h a t – y o u r e x p l a n a t io n i s c o r r e c t C h a ir b u t h o w e v e r i n m y e x p l a n a ti o n w a s t h a t g iv e n t h e s it u a ti o n w e h a d a g r e e d w i t h t h e f a r m e r t h a t w e w i ll a p p o i n t t h e – t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t a n d th e n g iv e t h e m o n e y t o th e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s o t h a t t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t s d e liv e r s th e p r o j e c ts o n b e h a l f o f th e f a r m e r. S o fr o m o u r s id e w e – w e o p t e d t h a t w h e n w e a p p o i n t e v e n t h o u g h t h e m o n e y i t i s o n a tr a n s fe r i t s h o u ld g o t o t h e f a r m e r b e c a u s e in t h is in s t a n c e w e a r e g i v i n g i t t o th e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t . s e l e c t i o n p r o c e s s t h r o u g h a t e n d e r. Let us do the S o t h e r e s t o f t h e o th e r i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts w e d i d a d v e r ti s e , a p p o i n t e d , a g r e e d w i th th e f a r m e r t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o a g r e e w i t h u s t o u s e o n e o f th e s e 20 i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n ts . B u t n o w i n t h e c a s e o f Vr e d e D a ir y i n s t e a d o f u s a d v e r t is in g w e o p t e d b e c a u s e t h e r e s t o f th e m w e h a d g o n e t h r o u g h n o r m a l p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s in g . W e t h e n s a i d i n th is in s ta n c e b e c a u s e o f t h e o t h e r t w o r e a s o n s th a t I h a v e g iv e n w e w il l th e n d e v i a t e fr o m t h e normal procurement process. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o d i d t h e t e n d e r p r o c e d u r e s a p p ly t o t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n Page 9 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 o f Vr e d e ? W e r e th e y a p p li c a b l e t h e p r e s c r ip ts r e la t in g to t e n d e r s ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I t d i d n o t b e c a u s e o f th e b u d g e t a l lo c a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Because it was under transfer? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : U n d e r t r a n s f e r s y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. But nevertheless you appear to have talked a b o u t d e v ia t io n , i s t h a t r i g h t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y is t h a t ? 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because we – we had – we had put o u r s e lv e s i n a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e i n th e p a s t e v e n th o u g h t h e m o n e y w a s a l lo c a t e d u n d e r tr a n s f e r s b e c a u s e o f t h e p r e v i o u s p r o b l e ms t h a t I h a d e x p l a i n e d w e t h e n o p te d to s a y w e a r e d e v ia t in g fr o m t h e n o r m a l p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s b y a p p o in t in g b e c a u s e i t w a s u s a n d th e fa r m e r t o g e th e r t h a t w a s a p p o i n t i n g t h e i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t . Hence we then d e c i d e d t o s a y w e a r e d e v i a ti n g fr o m o u r n o r m a l p r o c u r e m e n t – o r n o r m a l n o t a c c o r d in g to t h e la w. Because our normal procurement p r o c e s s w e h a v e d o n e i t t h a t w a y. S o i n t h is in s t a n c e w e d e c id e d t h a t w e a r e d e v i a t i n g fr o m t h a t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Ms Gcabashe. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u – th e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s t h a t I w o u ld l ik e y o u t o e x p la i n in – i n – fu r t h e r t o t h e C h a ir m a n p le a s e . S o fir s t y o u s p e a k o f a d e v i a ti o n b a s e d o n t h e b u d g e t a ll o c a ti o n . H a v e I u n d e r s t o o d y o u c o r r e c tl y ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 10 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M y r e a d in g o f t h e p a p e r s a n d I c a n t a k e y o u t o t h e s e p a r ti c u la r d o c u m e n t s is th e f o l lo w in g : Yo u h a d b u d g e t e d fr o m M a h u m a M o b u n g in t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 fi n a n c i a l y e a r. Yo u h a d b u d g e t e d a n a m o u n t o f R 3 0 m i ll io n . Yo u h a d n o t b u d g e t e d a n y s p e c if ic li n e it e m f o r t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . Pl e a s e c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t th a t is … ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o w h e n t h i s th i n g s t a r t e d th e r e w a s n o Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t th e r e w a s M a h u m a M o b u n g . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o a r e y o u s a y i n g t o t h e C h a ir m a n th a t a n y th in g t h a t f e l l w i t h i n th e a m b i t o f M a h u m a M o b u n g w o u l d – y o u w o u ld h a v e b e e n f o r c e d to d e v i a te b e c a u s e y o u h a d b u d g e t e d f o r th a t a s y o u s a y u n d e r t h e tr a n s f e r m o d e l ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a C h a i r. T h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o j e c ts w a s u n d e r M a h u m a M o b u n g b u d g e t a ll o c a t io n . So the bigger name on t o p w a s M a h u m a M o b u n g a n d th e r e u n d e r y o u h a v e Vr e d e D a ir y a s a p r o j e c t a n d t h a t b u d g e t a ll o c a ti o n o f M a h u m a M o b u n g w i ll t h e n d i c t a t e what is below it. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 20 A n d w h a t w a s a l lo c a t e d f o r Vr e d e i f my r e c o l l e c ti o n s e r v e s m e w e l l I c a n – i t is a c t u a ll y a p o i n t I w i ll r a is e l a te r is R 6 m il li o n . R 3 m i ll io n fo r i n f r a s tr u c tu r e a n d R 3 m il li o n f o r s o m e t h i n g e ls e . A m I c o r r e c t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir, c h a ir. I a m s u r e w e h a v e d is c u s s e d t h a t la s t w e e k . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w e ll i n th e m e a n t i m e l o ts o f t h i n g s m a y h a v e Page 11 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 happened. I w a s h e a r i n g a n o t h e r – t h e e v i d e n c e o f a n o t h e r w it n e s s y e s t e r d a y s o I w a s – s o m e – w e m a y h a v e to r e fr e s h o u r m e m o r y o n – m e m o r i e s o n s o m e o f t h e t h in g s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o p l e a s e j u s t g o b a c k to i t p l e a s e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir. W e d is c u s s e d t h a t t h e r e w a s R 1 7 m il li o n a l lo c a t e d to th e t h r e e p r o j e c ts . There were three p r o j e c ts o r i g i n a l ly R 1 7 m il li o n i f I a m – i f my m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll C h a ir. T h e t h r e e p r o je c t s … 10 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll i t – i t – I th i n k t h e w a y it w a s p u t la s t – l a s t w e e k w a s th r e e p l a n s w a s n o t t h r e e p l a n s i n c l u d i n g a f e a s i b i li ty p l a n ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h r e e p r o j e c ts . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h r e e p r o j e c ts y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: There was one. CHAIRPERSON: Each one would need some plans? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s t h e r e w e r e t h r e e p r o je c ts i n themselves. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: A n d th e n w e t h e n p u l le d t h e b u d g e t t o g e th e r o f t h e th r e e p r o j e c ts b e c a u s e w e w a n t e d t h e n to i m p le m e n t o n e b ig g e r p r o j e c t b e c a u s e t h e th r e e w e r e s m a l l e r a n d w e r e a lis e d t h a t Page 12 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e s m a l le r p r o j e c ts a r e n o t d o in g w e ll . H e n c e w e p u l le d th e p r o j e c ts t o g e th e r in t o o n e p r o je c t a n d w e a ll o c a t e d it u n d e r M o h u m a M o b u n g . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I – I h a v e d i ff ic u l ty i n t h e – i n y o u r p r e s e n t a ti o n o f t h e f a c ts M r Th a b e t h e . Yo u r e a l ly h a v e t o tr y t o b e s p e c i f ic . S o – a n d w h e n I a s k y o u t o b e s p e c if ic i t i s i n t e r m s o f t h e y e a r s b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a t h r e e y e a r c y c l e w h e r e y o u a ll o c a t e c e r t a i n a m o u n ts a n d t h e n y o u w o r k e v e r y y e a r y o u u s e w h a t e v e r a m o u n t h a s b e e n a l lo c a t e d f r o m t h e e q u i ta b l e s h a r e t h a t P r o v i n c e h a s . S o i n y o u r e x p l a n a t io n I th i n k i t w o u l d r e a l ly s e r v e t h e c o m m i s s io n b e t te r a n d th e 10 C h a ir m a n i f y o u c o u l d ju s t g iv e u s t h e d a t e s , t h e y e a r t h a t y o u a r e d e a li n g w it h ? I t r e a l ly w o u ld b e o f a s s i s t a n c e . Mahuma Mobung. S o le t u s g o b a c k . T h e a ll o c a ti o n fo r M a h u m a M o b u n g w a s w h a t in w h ic h y e a r a c c o r d i n g t o y o u r r e c o r d s ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir t h e d i ffic u lt y I w o u l d h a v e i t w i ll m e a n n o w I m u s t h a v e t h e f i g u r e s e x a c tl y i n fr o n t o f m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PET ER THABETHE: So that – so that I am able to say in the year 2012/2013 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B e c a u s e t h a t is t h e i n it i a l b u d g e t a l lo c a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Th e – i n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r y e a r t h a t i s t h e y e a r in w h ic h t h e t h r e e p r o j e c ts w e r e a ll o c a te d a t o t a l o f R 1 7 m il li o n . A n d t h e n w e t h e n p u ll e d t h a t m o n e y to g e t h e r to f o r m th e Vr e d e Page 13 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 D a ir y P r o j e c ts t o a ll o c a te it t o o n e o f t h e t h r e e w h ic h w a s Vr e d e D a i r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k m a y b e t h e w a y t o d e a l w i t h i t a n d o f c o u r s e i f y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r f ig u r e s y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e m . I f th e r e a r e d o c u m e n ts t h a t c o u l d r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y a n d th e y a r e a v a i la b le t h e c o m m i s s io n – t h e l e g a l t e a m s h o u l d m a k e t h o s e a v a i l a b l e t o y o u t o h e lp y o u . B u t w h a t y o u – y o u m a y b e a b l e to s a y i s i n 2 0 1 3 th e r e w e r e t h e t h r e e p r o j e c ts a n d t h e r e w a s o n ly o n e a m o u n t a l l o c a t e d t o th e m R 1 7 m il li o n if th a t is w h a t – w h a t i t w a s . Th e R 1 7 m il li o n w a s m e a n t fo r t h r e e p r o je c t s a n d a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e y o u d e c i d e d a s y o u p u t i t t o p u l l 10 t h e – t h e m t o g e t h e r. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: In order to do a bigger project. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Pr o j e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e e n tir e R 1 7 m i l li o n w o u l d b e f o r t h is o n e b i g g e r project. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o w y o u m i g h t t h e n b e a b l e to s a y t h e f o ll o w i n g y e a r th is i s w h a t h a p p e n e d . For example it may be that you forgot a b o u t t h e o t h e r t w o t h a t h a d o r ig i n a ll y b e e n th e r e . Yo u fo c u s s e d o n – 20 o n t h e o n e a n d w h a te v e r b u d g e t a l l o c a t i o n w a s m a d e i n t h e f o l l o w i n g y e a r 2 0 1 4 / 2 0 1 5 w a s fo r t h a t b i g p r o j e c t o n l y a n d n o t l o n g e r f o r t h e o th e r t w o . Yo u m i g h t b e a b l e t o e x p l a i n i t lik e th a t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. In a d d i ti o n t o th e – t o t h e 3 0 w e t h e n m a d e – w e h a d a lr e a d y m a d e a r e q u e s t t o t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l i n d ic a ti n g t h a t w e n e e d e d a n a d d i t io n a l R 8 4 Page 14 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 m il li o n i n t h a t s a m e y e a r 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 . N o w w e w e r e t h e n g i v e n a p p r o v a l o f th e 8 4 to b e m a d e a v a i la b le t o u s d u r in g t h e b u d g e t a p p r o p r i a ti o n w h ic h i s t h e s e c o n d a p p r o p r i a ti o n t h a t n o r m a lly h a p p e n s i n O c t o b e r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o c a n w e g e t t h e f a c ts r i g h t p l e a s e , p l e a s e M r T h a b e th e . Yo u a r e n o w t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e E X C O R e s o l u ti o n . T h e E X C O R e s o lu t io n l e t u s p u l l i t o u t. C a n w e – w e w il l g e t t o th e E X C O R e s o l u ti o n b e c a u s e t h a t i s n o t w h a t i t s a y s . B u t fir s t I w a n t t o h e l p y o u f in d t h e f ig u r e s f o r 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 . S o if y o u g o t o R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e C p a g e 7 7 8 . R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e C p a g e 7 7 8 . It i s a n o te fr o m 10 t h e Pr o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y a n d it s u s e f u l n e s s li e s i n t h e f a c t t h a t th e y a c t u a ll y s u m m a r is e a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s . A l l o f w h ic h a r e r e le v a n t to t h e Vr e d e D i a r y P r o j e c t . A r e y o u th e r e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a n k y o u . S o i t i s a p r e li m i n a r y r e p o r t o n t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t b u t t h e y ti e it i n t o t h e M a h u m a M o b u n g b r o a d s tr a t e g i c c o n c e p t. background. S o in p a r a g r a p h 2 y e s th e y s e t o u t t h e P le a s e r e a d p a r a g r a p h 2 i n t o t h e r e c o r d b e c a u s e i t w i ll h e l p y o u r e m e m b e r i t if y o u r e a d i t t h r o u g h . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: 20 Paragraph 2 under the heading background. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: “In 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 A g r ic u l t u r e and f i n a n c ia l y e a r Rural the Department of Development w h ic h was c o m b in e d t h e n r e q u e s t e d fu n d i n g t o w a r d s M a h u m a Page 15 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M o b u n g P r o je c t. T h is w a s d o n e d u r i n g a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t – t h is p u r p o s e M a h u m a M o b u n g t h e n w a s t o in it i a t e a m a c r o Pr o v in c e w i d e c o m m o d i t y o r i e n t a t e d p r o g r a m m e a i m e d a t i m p r o v i n g p r i m a r y p r o d u c t io n , le v e ls amongst s m a ll h o l d e r farmers and that c h a n n e l le d t h e s e v o l u m e s in t o a c o m m o n v a l u e c h a i n to achieve s u s t a i n a b il i ty f o o d s e c u r i ty, f o o d in p r o d u c t io n s . a ffo r d a b il i ty and Furthermore t h is p r o j e c t w a s t o b e u n d e r t a k e n i n c o n j u n c ti o n w i t h 10 v a r io u s r e l e v a n c e s ta k e h o l d e r s , s tr a te g i c p a r t n e r s and potential investors.” A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R i g h t s o i t w a s a Pr o v in c e w i d e s tr a t e g y that is what paragraph 2 says. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 2 s i m p l y o u tl i n e s t h e t y p e s o f p r o je c ts . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I w o u l d l ik e u s to g o t o p a r a g r a p h 4 . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P l e a s e r e a d t h a t in t o t h e r e c o r d ? 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir – C h a i r c a n I t a lk t o paragraph 2? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: I t w a s i n 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 f in a n c ia l y e a r w h e n – w h e n t h e s tr a t e g y w a s b e i n g i n i ti a t e d a n d a c c e p te d b y Tr e a s u r y. Page 16 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because we then went to request b u d g e t a ll o c a ti o n t o i m p l e m e n t th e s tr a t e g y. S o t h a t is t h e b a c k g r o u n d o f i te m n u m b e r 2 . C h a ir C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: I w a n t ju s t t o c h e c k w h ic h i s th e n e x t paragraph? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 4 p a r a g r a p h 4 Mr T h a b e t h e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Paragraph 4. 10 “ To this e ffe c t an amount of R30 m ill i o n was a p p r o v e d b y t h e E x e c u t iv e C o u n c i l t o f u n d t h e fir s t p h a s e o f M a h u m a M o b u n g Pr o j e c t a n d t h e a p p r o v a l w a s g iv e n d u r i n g t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t . ” ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: R i g h t s o t h a t is R 3 0 m i ll i o n f o r a l l t h e p r o j e c ts ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Continue paragraph 5. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: “ Fr o m 20 the a l lo c a t e d budget of R30 m il li o n the D e p a r t m e n t s p e n t a n a m o u n t o f R 2 5 . 3 3 5 m ill i o n o r 8 4 . 4 % h o w e v e r t h e d e t a i ls o f t h i s e x p e n d i t u r e h a s n o t y e t b e e n c o n fi r m e d w it h th e D e p a r t m e n t . ” ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o t h a t is y o u r d e p a r t m e n t ? Yo u s p e n t 8 4 . 4 % o f th e R 3 0 m il li o n t h a t h a d b e e n a ll o c a t e d ? P l e a s e t e l l m e i f I am correct or incorrect? Page 17 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, c h a ir t h i s is n o t m y l e t t e r. I t i s t h e le t t e r o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t s h e is a s k i n g w h e t h e r t h a t is c o r r e c t w h a t t h e y a r e s a y in g h e r e t h a t y o u r d e p a r t m e n t s p e n t 8 4 . 4 % o f t h a t a m o u n t . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I t is n o t i n d i c a t in g i n w h ic h fi n a n c i a l year … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e c a u s e I l o o k a t t h e r e p o r t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e d a t e o f t h e r e p o r t i t is s i g n e d o n 22 May 2013. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h e - t h e f ir s t fi n a n c i a l y e a r - t h e - t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r o n w h ic h t h e b u d g e t h a s b e e n a l lo c a t e d h a d p a s s e d a n d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t w e h a d s p e n t 3 0 m ill i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: A n d - a n d th e r e i s p r o o f o f b a n k s t a te m e n ts in t h a t r e g a r d . CHAIRPERSON: 20 S o y o u - y o u m a y n e e d t o s e e c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts i n o r d e r t o r e f r e s h y o u r m e m o r y a s t o e x a c tl y h o w m u c h y o u h a d s p e n t o r n o t r e a l ly ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I - I t h i n k I have - I have seen the document … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C o n fi r m i n g th a t i n J u ly 2 0 1 2 t h e Page 18 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 a m o u n t o f 3 0 m ill i o n w a s p a id . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d - h a d b e e n s p e n t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Had been spent. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . No, in other words in t e r ms of your u n d e r s t a n d in g b a s e d o n t h a t d o c u m e n t a s a t J u ly 3 0 m il li o n h a d b e e n spent. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w M r T h a b e th e … 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o I a m - I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir. S o r r y. I a m n o t s u r e . T h a t is w h y I a m a s k in g th is 8 4 p e r c e n t w h ic h f in a n c i a l y e a r i s i t a p p l ic a b le . S o th a t th e n I c a n r e fr e s h my m e m o r y v e r y w e l l. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Mr T h a b e t h e t h e c o n te x t h a s a l w a y s b e e n t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 . E v e r y th i n g a b o v e p a r a g r a p h 5 r e l a t e s t o 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 a n d w e k n o w t h e e n d o f t h a t f in a n c ia l y e a r is M a r c h 2 0 1 2 . W h y w o u l d y o u a s s u m e it is a d i ff e r e n t y e a r ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h i s is w h y I a s k e d y o u t o r e a d i t. S o t h a t 20 a t l e a s t a s y o u r e a d i t - it - y o u m i g h t s t a r t r e m e m b e r i n g a s t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t w h a t s p e n d i n g - w h a t e x p e n d i tu r e o c c u r r e d d u r i n g th a t ti m e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 … C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i t m ig h t h e lp y o u i f y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 7 t h e f o ll o w i n g p a g e w h e r e it s a y s : Page 19 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 “In June 2012 the department approached P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y t o a p p r o v e a n a d v a n c e p a y m e n t o f - t o a t u n e o f R 3 0 m i ll io n to w a r d s E s ti n a in r e l a ti o n t o t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f a m e g a p r o j e c t c a l l e d Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t . ” I s e e t h e m e n ti o n o f R 3 0 m i ll io n t h e r e a n d I s e e J u n e 2 0 1 2 . D o e s t h a t a s s is t y o u ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir t h e - t h e r e p o r t is v e r y c o n fu s i n g . L e t - le t m e - l e t m e … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: L e t m e f ir s t g o b a c k C h a ir w i t h y o u r p e r m is s io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is fi n e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In - in t h e b a c k g r o u n d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h e d o c u m e n t s a y s in 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 th e d e p a r t m e n t r e q u e s te d 3 0 m il li o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 T h a t i s - t h a t is t h e b a c k g r o u n d . Paragraph 2. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 . S o … C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t - t h a t w o u ld b e - t h a t w o u l d m e a n th a t it is w a y before March 2012? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s b e c a u s e … Page 20 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 CHAIRPERSON: T h e r e q u e s t b e c a u s e t h e - t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 f in a n c ia l y e a r fo r G o v e r n m e n t w o u l d e n d i n M a r c h 2 0 1 2 . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f y o u a r e m a k in g a r e q u e s t i n r e g a r d to th a t - i f i t is s a i d i n 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 th a t i s s o m e w h e r e … MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : B e tw e e n A p r il 2 0 11 a n d M a r c h 2 0 … MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 2012, yes. CHAIRPERSON: March 2012. 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: That, yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The next request of June 2012 was t h e n i n a n o t h e r f in a n c ia l y e a r. S o th e s e a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t f in a n c i a l years. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n , c a n I b e o f a s s i s t a n c e b e c a u s e h a v i n g ( i n te r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Paragraph 6 … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is c o n f u s i o n a r is e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: P a r a g r a p h 6 m a k e s i t p la in t h a t in t h e 2 0 11 - b e c a u s e th e r e a r e t h r e e y e a r c y c l e s i n G o v e r n m e n t . So p a r a g r a p h 6 s e t s o u t v e r y c l e a r ly t h a t 3 5 m i l li o n w a s a ll o c a t e d i n 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 . 4 0 m il li o n w a s a ll o c a te d i n 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 . Page 21 of 194 22 145 000 was 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 a l lo c a t e d i n 2 0 1 4 / 2 0 1 5 . S o r e a l ly t h e r e is n o c o n fu s i o n . What was a l lo c a t e d i n 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 w a s 3 0 m ill i o n . O f t h e 3 0 m i ll io n 8 4 p e r c e n t … CHAIRPERSON: W e l l - w e ll M s G c a b a s h e I a m - I - I w a n t t o s e e i f t h e r e i s n o c o n f u s io n . M r T h a b e th e th i n k s th e r e is . I a m a l s o tr y i n g t o have a look here. 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 . T h e - t h e - p a r a g r a p h 6 d o e s n o t ta lk a b o u t I t t a lk s a b o u t 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 3 a n d - a n d 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 a n d 2 0 1 4 /2 0 1 5 . P a r a g r a p h 2 s a y s : “ I n t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 f in a n c i a l y e a r th e d e p a r t m e n t m a d e a r e q u e s t fo r f u n d i n g . ” S o t h e - t h e - in r e g a r d t o M o h u m a M o b u n g P r o j e c t . Th a t i s 10 g e n e r a l I w o u l d ta k e i t a n d t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 4 i t s a y s : “ A n a m o u n t o f R 3 0 m i ll io n w a s a p p r o v e d b y Ex c o for the Mohuma Mobung Project.” A n d th a t a p p r o v a l w a s g i v e n d u r i n g t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 fi n a n c i a l o r a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t. T h a t is 3 0 m i ll io n . T h e n f iv e : “ Fr o m t h e a ll o c a te d 3 0 m i ll io n … ” T h a t is th e 3 0 m il li o n r e f e r r e d to in p a r a g r a p h 4 . “ … t h e d e p a r t m e n t s p e n t 2 5 .3 3 5 mi ll i o n . ” S o th a t - th a t is m o n e y b e lo n g i n g t o 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 . S o th e R 3 0 20 m il li o n . the S o 2 0 - p a r a g r a p h s 2 , t h r e e , f o u r a n d f iv e s e e m t o b e a b o u t 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 f in a n c i a l y e a r and t h e n s i x is about 2012/2013, 2 0 1 3 /2 0 1 4 , 2 0 1 4 /2 0 1 5 a n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 7 . I t l o o k s l ik e th e y g o b a c k to 2012. They say: “In June 2012 …” N o w in J u n e 2 0 1 2 th a t w o u ld b e t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 f i n a n c i a l c y c l e . Page 22 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: June 2012. It w o u l d n o t b e th e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 fi n a n c i a l c y c l e b e c a u s e th a t w o u l d h a v e c o m e t o a n e n d i n M a r c h 2 0 1 2 . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: So they say then: “In June 2012 your department - the department approached Pr o v in c i a l Tr e a s u r y to approve an a d v a n c e d p a y m e n t to a tu n e o f R 3 0 m il li o n . ” S o t h a t R 3 0 m il li o n m u s t b e r e la t in g t h e n to t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 10 fi n a n c i a l y e a r f o r w h ic h it w o u l d a p p e a r i n p a r a g r a p h 6 R 3 5 m i ll io n h a d b e e n a ll o c a t e d . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Maybe what I have - what I have read and w h a t I h a v e s a i d d o e s h e l p y o u . M a y b e it d o e s n o t h e l p y o u . A r e y o u a b l e t o - to s a y a n y t h i n g a r is i n g o u t o f t h a t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. Yo u r i n te r p r e t a ti o n is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. L e t u s g o b a c k t o M s G c a b a s h e ’s q u e s t io n w h ic h I h a v e f o r g o t t e n Ms G c a b a s h e . S o p l e a s e j u s t a s k i t a g a i n a n d 20 le t u s s e e i f w e a r e a b l e t o m a k e p r o g r e s s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It w a s t h e s i m p l e p r o p o s it i o n C h a ir m a n t a k e n fr o m p a r a g r a p h 5 o f t h e s a m e l e t t e r. Th e d e p a r t m e n t s p e n t 8 4 . 4 p e r c e n t o f w h a t h a d b e e n a ll o c a t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u w a n t e d h i m t o c o n f ir m w h e th e r h e a g r e e s with that. Page 23 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d h e c o u l d n o t a g r e e o r d is a g r e e b e c a u s e h e s a id … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: The numbers did not make sense to him. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A t - a t le a s t w h a t e v e r m a y h a v e b e e n c o n f u s in g e a r l ie r o n m a y b e i t h a s b e e n c l a r i fi e d n o w ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. J a C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o a r e y o u a b l e t o - t o a n s w e r t h a t q u e s ti o n ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, I - I w o u l d n o t - I w o u l d n o t b e 10 a b l e t o c o n f ir m w h e t h e r i t w a s 8 4 m il li o n . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r n o w … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: But we may need to go back to the department because … CHAIRPERSON: And check the documents? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a b e c a u s e w h e n I r e a d th e s t a t e m e n t Tr e a s u r y is a l s o n o t s u r e … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B e c a u s e t h e y s a y t h e d e t a il o f t h is e x p e n d i t u r e h a s n o t y e t b e e n c o n f ir m e d w i t h t h e d e p a r t m e n t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o w e m a y n e e d to g o a n d c o n fi r m s o that we agree whether yes … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Or no. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 24 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a i r m a n , c a n I j u s t a s k M r T h a b e th e t o m a k e t h e c o r r e c t i o n . It is n o t 8 4 m i ll io n . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : 8 4 p e r c e n t, s o r r y C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . J u s t - b e c a u s e w e w il l ta lk a b o u t 8 4 m il li o n i n d u e c o u r s e . C a n y o u j u s t e x p l a in to t h e C h a ir m a n w h a t t h a t 2 0 11 /2 0 1 2 a d j u s t m e n t - a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t p r o c e s s s p e a k s t o a n d t h a t I a m r e a d in g t h a t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 4 . J u s t s o th a t w e u n d e r s t a n d h o w t h is 3 0 m i ll io n w a s s o u r c e d . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 10 C h a ir a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t i t is - it is w h e n y o u h a d n o t b e e n a l lo c a t e d t h e m o n e y i n t h e b e g in n in g o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o m o r e c o r r e c t ly w h e n y o u h a d n o t r e q u e s t e d - y o u h a d n o t b u d g e t e d f o r t h e m o n e y a t t h e b e g in n i n g o f th e y e a r. T h a t is h o w y o u g e t th e a l lo c a t io n . CHAIRPERSON: Well … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M r T h a b e th e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr T h a b e t h e e x p la in i t t h e w a y y o u u n d e r s t a n d i t . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir. Adjustment budget a l lo c a t io n … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: It is m o n e y t h a t y o u g e t a l lo c a t e d i n t h e s e c o n d a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t . Th a t m e a n s i f - i f in a p e r io d fr o m th e b e g in n i n g o f t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r y o u r e a li s e t h a t y o u n e e d m o n e y f o r whatever reason. Then you go and make a request for that money to b e a ll o c a te d t o y o u a n d th e n i f t h a t r e q u e s t i s a p p r o v e d t h a t y o u b e Page 25 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 a l lo c a t e d t h a t m o n e y. Th e n y o u w i ll r e c e i v e t h a t m o n e y d u r in g th e a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t. CHAIRPERSON: S o i t w o u l d b e m o n e y t h a t y o u - w o u ld i t b e m o n e y t h a t y o u m a y h a v e r e q u e s t e d b e f o r e t h e f in a n c ia l y e a r b u t w e r e n o t g r a n t e d o r c o u l d i t o n ly b e m o n e y th a t y o u h a d n o t r e q u e s te d a n d t h e r e f o r e t h a t i s w h y i t w a s n o t b u d g e t e d o r i t w a s n o t g iv e n t o y o u a t t h e b e g in n in g o f t h e f in a n c i a l y e a r ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I t - i t c a n b e b o t h in s ta n c e s C h a ir - C h a ir. T h e - t h e - y o u r m o t iv a ti o n is w h a t a l lo w s t h e m t o a ll o c a te . Yo u 10 m i g h t h a v e a s k e d i t b e f o r e b u t d i d n o t m o ti v a t e p r o p e r ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s n o t a ll o c a t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e n y o u g o b a c k a n d y o u r e m o t iv a te . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e n y o u g e t th e a l lo c a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o l ik e y o u s a y I to ld y o u e a r l ie r w h e n I a s k e d f o r i t t h a t i f y o u d i d n o t g iv e i t t h e s e w o u l d b e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s . N o w t h e s e c o n s e q u e n c e s h a v e s ta r t e d h a p p e n i n g . 20 I a m a s k i n g y o u a g a i n to - to g iv e m e t h is m o n e y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A l l o c a t e - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o w a s a m a t t e r o f fa c t f o r M o h u m a M o b u n g y o u h a d n o t p r o v i d e d a b u d g e t i t e m . A m I c o r r e c t - u n t il y o u got to the adjustment budget phase? Page 26 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir i t i s n o t a b u d g e t . Yo u w i ll n o t h a v e a b u d g e t i t e m w h e n it h a s n o t b e e n a l lo c a t e d . E v e n i f y o u m ig h t have made a request. I t o n ly b e c o m e s a b u d g e t i te m w h e n y o u h a v e b e e n a l l o c a t e d . S o t h e i t e m w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n th e r e b e c a u s e th e r e w a s n o m o n e y a ll o c a te d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: M r T h a b e t h e t h e r e w a s n o a l lo c a t io n because Mohuma Mobung was a new idea. Am I correct? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t w a s a 2 0 1 2 - 2 0 11 , e a r l y 2 0 1 2 id e a ? 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. It was a new idea … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: requested for funding. But it does not mean we had W e h a d r e q u e s t e d f o r fu n d i n g b u t t h e m o n e y was - was not allocated. S o w e t h e n p e r s i s te n tl y w e n t o n a n d o n r e q u e s t in g fo r i t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h e n d o e s t h e a d ju s t m e n t b u d g e t p r o c e s s t a k e p la c e - t h o s e d i s c u s s io n s ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 A d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t t a k e s e ff e c t a n y ti m e f r o m 1 A p r il in t h e n e w fi n a n c i a l y e a r y o u c a n s t a r t m a k in g y o u r request for adjustment budget. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W o u l d t h e d is c u s s io n s n o t h a v e ta k e n p l a c e i n o r a r o u n d N o v e m b e r b e fo r e t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r c lo s e d ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir b y t h a t ti m e a d e c is io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n ta k e n w h a t a r e w e f in a n c i n g b y N o v e m b e r b e c a u s e th e Page 27 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 a d j u s t m e n t h a p p e n s i n O c t o b e r. Yo u d o n o t w a i t u n t il N o v e m b e r t o p l a c e y o u r r e q u e s t . Yo u c a n p l a c e it a n y ti m e b e fo r e t h a t ti m e w h e n a d e c is i o n is ta k e n . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h i s is p r e c i s e l y w h y I s a i d i n o r a r o u n d . S o O c t o b e r / N o v e m b e r n o p r o b le m . I n o r a r o u n d m e a n s in t h a t v ic in i ty. S o y o u a s k e d f o r t h is 3 0 m il li o n i n O c t o b e r 2 0 11 ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir y o u - y o u d o n o t a s k f o r it i n O c t o b e r. I t is p r e s e n t e d i n O c t o b e r. S o y o u w o u l d h a v e a lr e a d y a s k e d f o r i t t o b e a ll o c a t e d to y o u . 10 Yo u d o n o t h a v e to w a i t f o r O c t o b e r t o make a request. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u m a k e t h e r e q u e s t m u c h e a r li e r … ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u g e t to k n o w w h e t h e r y o u h a v e b e e n g r a n t e d y o u r r e q u e s t h a s b e e n g r a n t e d in O c to b e r ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In O c t o b e r, y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: M r - Mr T h a b e t h e o n m y r e c o l le c ti o n o f y o u r - y o u r e v i d e n c e th e M o h u m a M o b u n g c o n c e p t w a s a 2 0 11 c o n c e p t . 20 Am I - am I correct? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o i t b e in g a 2 0 11 c o n c e p t i t w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n - n o m o n e y w o u ld h a v e b e e n a l lo c a t e d t o t h a t s tr a te g y o r to t h a t i n it i a t iv e i n th e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 fi n a n c i a l y e a r. A m I c o r r e c t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair … Page 28 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s p e a k M r T h a b e t h e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir in th e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 f in a n c ia l year … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The report says we were allocated m o n e y d u r in g t h e a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h ic h - w h ic h to o k p l a c e i n O c t o b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h a t I a m t r y i n g t o s a y is t h a t b e fo r e t h a t a l lo c a t io n h a p p e n e d w e h a d a lr e a d y m a d e a r e q u e s t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: That is why I am - I do not understand the question … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because I thought I had explained that. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Yo u m a k e th e r e q u e s t a n d t h e n y o u g e t t h e a l l o c a t i o n in O c t o b e r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . I a m s u r e M s G c a b a s h e w il l c o m e b a c k t o y o u o n t h e m a t t e r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o C h a ir m a n . Page 29 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w i ll c o m e b a c k to a d i ffe r e n t w i t n e s s o n t h e is s u e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To h e l p u s u n d e r s ta n d i t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e I h a v e t o t h i n k t h a t M r Th a b e t h e is n o t b e in g p a r t ic u l a r ly h e lp f u l t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is m y v i e w. CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o I w i ll m o v e o n fr o m th is p o i n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B e c a u s e i t i s - it is o n e o f m a n y th i n g s t h a t I - I w o u l d li k e t o e x p l o r e . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: M r T h a b e t h e w o u l d it b e c o r r e c t to s a y t h a t th e s ix m il li o n t h a t w a s b u d g e t e d f o r th e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o je c t w a s r e q u e s t e d i n 2 0 1 2 i n t h e n e w fi n a n c i a l y e a r ? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is a f te r e n d M a r c h 2 0 1 2 . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I a m - I a m tr y in g t o - t o r e c o l le c t C h a ir. ( Ba c k g r o u n d n o i s e ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 30 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m tr y i n g t o r e a d p a r a g r a p h 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Fr o m - fr o m t h e r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. Chair … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r T h a b e t h e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In - in J u n e 2 0 1 2 … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h ic h w a s t h e - t h e y e a r i n w h ic h i n 10 t e r m s o f th e r e p o r t o n - u n d e r it e m s ix . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It s a y s : “In 2012/2013 …” CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because June 2012 … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: W o u ld - would th e n mean the a l lo c a t io n w a s 3 5 m il li o n u n d e r - f o r M o h u m a M o b u n g . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Then in June 2012 … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h e d e p a r t m e n t r e q u e s t e d 3 0 m i ll io n fr o m t h e a l lo c a t e d 3 5 o f M o h u m a M o b u n g … CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: A n d t h e r e p o r t is e x p la i n i n g th a t i n Page 31 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e - i n t h e M o h u m a M o b u n g b u d g e t fr o m t h e a l l o c a t e d 3 0 m i lli o n s ix m il li o n w a s p u t a s id e f o r Vr e d e D a ir y a n d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: A n d t h r e e m i ll i o n w a s c o m i n g fr o m in fr a s tr u c t u r e e n h a n c e m e n t a l l o c a t i o n a n d a n o t h e r t h r e e m il li o n fr o m EPW P grant. T h a t - t h a t is w h a t t h e r e p o r t is s a y i n g t h a t - t h a t I a m r e a d in g . C h a ir w h a t - w h a t I r e m e m b e r w e h a d d o n e w h ic h I h a d a ls o tr i e d to e x p l a i n . W e h a v e p u ll e d t h r e e p r o j e c ts t o g e t h e r w h ic h w e r e in d i v i d u a lly a l l o c a te d . 10 CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I a m i n t e r r u p t i n g y o u M r Th a b e t h e b u t t h a t is b e c a u s e I w a n t to d r a w y o u r a t t e n t io n t o w h a t t h e q u e s ti o n w a s . A s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s t i o n w a s i t s o u g h t t o e s t a b l is h w h e n y o u w o u ld h a v e m a d e th e r e q u e s t . I s t h a t r i g h t ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u w o u ld h a v e t h e r e q u e s t b u t I d o s e e t h a t i n t h e f ir s t l in e o f p a r a g r a p h 7 i t s a y s : y o u a p p r o a c h e d Tr e a s u r y - P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y i n J u n e 2 0 1 2 , b u t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th e a p p r o a c h r e f e r r e d to t h e r e w o u ld b e th e r e q u e s t o r w h e t h e r th e r e q u e s t w o u ld h a v e b e e n e a r l i e r. I t h i n k t h a t is - t h a t is - th e q u e s ti o n r e l a te s 20 t o w h e n w o u ld y o u h a v e m a d e t h e r e q u e s t f o r t h a t a m o u n t. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t ( in d is ti n c t) y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e q u e s ti o n C h a ir m a n i s j u s t w h e n w o u l d t h a t s ix m i lli o n fo r t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t h a v e - h a d b e e n b u d g e te d Page 32 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 f o r. W h e n d i d h e r e q u e s t t h a t t h a t a m o u n t b e a ll o c a t e d t o Vr e d e b e c a u s e w e n o w k n o w i t w a s in t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 fi n a n c i a l y e a r ? CHAIRPERSON: I a m n o t s u r e i f - p a r a g r a p h 6 te ll s u s th a t f o r th e 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 f in a n c i a l y e a r R 3 5 m i ll io n w a s s e t a s i d e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct. CHAIRPERSON: That - that must mean that was the budget? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Now in 20 - in June the department approached P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y a n d a s I u n d e r s ta n d M r T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e t o a s k 10 f o r R 3 0 m ill i o n … MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 30. CHAIRPERSON: Of that R35 … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : M il li o n t o b e g iv e n t o t h e m a s a n a d v a n c e p a y m e n t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: u n d e r s t a n d i t. S o t h e - t h e b u d g e ti n g w a s a lr e a d y t h e r e a s I S o t h e s i x m il li o n - w e ll o n c e y o u - y o u g o t t h e 3 0 m il li o n t h e 3 0 m il li o n w a s p a r t o f th e b u d g e t … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr e a d y. N o w o n e w o u l d n e e d t o l o o k a t t h is to s e e w h e t h e r t h e s ix m i ll io n is s u p p o s e d t o c o m e fr o m th a t 3 0 m i ll io n b e c a u s e i f i t c o m e s fr o m t h a t 3 0 m i ll i o n it m e a n s i t i s s ti ll w i t h i n t h e b u d g e t b u t t h e n th e - i f th e q u e s t io n is w h e t h e r y o u h a d to m a k e a r e q u e s t f o r t h e s i x mi ll i o n t h e n w e c a n l o o k a t t h a t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 33 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms G c a b a s h e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n th e … CHAIRPERSON: I think that part of what I am - what I have just said a r i s e s fr o m th e f a c t t h a t w h e n y o u w e r e t e l li n g m e w h a t y o u r q u e s ti o n w a s y o u r e f e r r e d t o w h e n t h e s ix m il li o n w a s b u d g e te d f o r a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s I s o u g h t to s a y b u t p a r a g r a p h 6 t e l ls u s t h a t t h e n fi v e m il li o n w a s s e t a - a s i d e a n d p a r a g r a p h 7 t a l k s a b o u t R 3 0 m il li o n w h ic h i s p a r t o f t h e 3 5 m i ll io n . W h a t I h a v e n o t c h e c k e d is w h e t h e r t h e s ix m i ll io n is a - is 10 p a r t o f t h e 3 0 m il li o n o r n o t b u t I - I w a n t e d t o i n d i c a t e th a t i t m a y b e t h a t i t w a s b u d g e t e d fo r. S o i f t h a t - i f - i f th e q u e s ti o n is w h e th e r i t w a s w i th i n b u d g e t . I t s e e m s t h a t i t w a s b u t I m a y b e m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n , m a y b e M r T h a b e t h e c a n a s s i s t us here. M r T h a b e t h e g iv e n th a t w e k n o w t h a t f o r t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 fi n a n c i a l y e a r u n d e r M o h u m a M o b u n g t h e a m o u n t t h a t h a d b e e n b u d g e t e d w a s t h a t 3 0 - 3 5 m il li o n . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e a l l a g r e e d o n th a t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B e c a u s e t h e r e a r e v a r i o u s p r o j e c ts t h a t f a ll u n d e r M o h u m a M o b u n g my a s s u m p ti o n h a s b e e n t h a t y o u w o u ld tr y a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t to a ll o c a te c e r t a in a m o u n t s t o s p e c if ic p r o j e c t s . I s t h a t a s s u m p ti o n i n c o r r e c t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o w i t h i n t h a t a ll o c a ti o n th a t y o u w o r k Page 34 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 through as the department - because you know what you need to s u p p o r t i n t h a t y e a r - w o u l d y o u h a v e a ll o c a t e d n o w a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t fr o m t h e 3 5 m i ll io n s ix m il li o n f o r t h e Vr e d e D a i r y Pr o je c t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir I - I th in k w e a r e g o in g back … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: To w h a t w e h a d a lr e a d y - I h a d a lr e a d y a g r e e d o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t t h e 3 0 m i ll io n … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: W a s n o t o n ly a ll o c a te d to Vr e d e b u t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e to o k a c o n s c i o u s d e c is i o n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t it b e a ll o c a te d t o Vr e d e D a i r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: That - that I - we - I have agreed. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: m il li o n . H u h - u h , b u t I t h i n k s h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t th e s i x A s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s it i o n - m a y b e w e s h o u l d r e a d w h a t - w h a t th is p a r a g r a p h s a y s a b o u t s ix m il li o n . “ H o w e v e r fr o m b u d g e t e d p r o je c te d li s t Vr e d e D a ir y Page 35 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 P r o je c t w a s o n l y b u d g e t e d R 6 m il li o n o f w h ic h t h r e e …” O k a y. I g u e s s t h i s t a l k s to t h e d i s tr i b u ti o n … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e i n i ti a l d is tr i b u ti o n … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O f h o w m u c h o f t h e 3 0 m il li o n w o u l d g o t o Vr e d e D a ir y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m u c h o f t h e 3 0 m i ll i o n w o u l d g o t o th e o th e r t w o p r o j e c ts . Is th a t r i g h t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is - th a t is t h e s t a g e t o w h ic h th is r e l a te s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. I - I … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - th a t w a s th e c a s e C h a ir b e f o r e we approached … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: W e h a d a lr e a d y c o n s o li d a te d b y th e ti m e w e a p p r o a c h e d Tr e a s u r y t o r e q u e s t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 36 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: S o th e y - t h e y m a y n o t g o b a c k a n d say remember … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is l ik e t h e y a r e s a y in g r e m e m b e r . .. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B e fo r e y o u p u t t h i s m o n e y t o g e t h e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h is is h o w i t w a s a l lo c a t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i g in a lly ? 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e - th e i m p o r t a n c e o f u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h a t th e o r ig in a l i n te r n a l a l l o c a t i o n h a d b e e n is f o r o n e to b e a b le t o d o a c o m p a r a to r w i t h w h a t y o u c o r r e c t ly c a ll a r e a li g n m e n t a n d a r e th i n k i n g o n w h e r e t h e e n t ir e a m o u n t s h o u l d g o . S o I f u l ly a g r e e w i th y o u M r Th a b e t h e w h e n y o u s a y in o r a b o u t M a y / J u n e a d e c is io n w o u l d h a v e b e e n t a k e n t h a t t h e e n t ir e 3 0 m il li o n - it i s 3 0 .5 b u t th e r e q u e s t t h a t w a s p u t in w a s f o r 3 0 m i ll io n b u t t h a t w a s t h e e n tir e M o h u m a M o b u n g a ll o c a ti o n … 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d a ll o f t h a t w a s g o i n g t o g o t o Vr e d e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : J a . Th e r e I - I a g r e e w i t h y o u . W h a t t h e n r e m a in e d w a s t h e fi v e m i ll io n o f t h e 3 5 m il l io n th a t h a d b e e n a l l o c a t e d . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 37 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n n a F o u r i e v e r y b r i e f ly. G o o d , s o l e t’s g o to t h e e v id e n c e o f M s S h e t o ld t h e C o m m i s s io n , s h e t o l d th e C h a ir m a n t h a t o n t h e 1 5 t h o f J u n e i n d e e d s h e w a s t o l d t h a t t h e C F O fr o m y o u r d e p a r t m e n t w o u l d b e a r r iv i n g a n d w o u ld b e c o m i n g t o r e q u e s t 3 0 m i ll io n fo r t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t , r e a lly i t w a s f o r E s t i n a , to p a y E s ti n a . D o y o u k n o w a b o u t t h a t r e q u e s t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s C h a ir. Is i t t h e s a m e r e q u e s t t h a t ’s r e f e r r e d t o h e r e in p a r a g r a p h 7 ? 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C a n y o u t a k e t h e C h a ir m a n t h r o u g h w h y a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e , o n t h e 1 5 t h o f J u n e , i t w a s i m p o r t a n t fo r th e D e p a r t m e n t t o h a v e R 3 0 m i ll io n to h a n d ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir c a n I r e f e r to s o m e o f m y notes? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y d o s o . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: p r o p e r ly. S o t h a t I a m a b l e to r e s p o n d C h a ir I ’ m tr y i n g to g o b a c k to t h e v e r y s a m e – I t h i n k w e d e a lt w i th i t o n Th u r s d a y w h e r e t h e r e w a s a n i n d ic a ti o n , w e w e n t tr o u g h 20 t h a t ta b le . CHAIRPERSON: I f y o u g i v e i n f o r m a ti o n , i f y o u ’r e a b l e t o , w h a t t h e t a b le w a s a l l a b o u t Ms G c a b a s h e m i g h t j u s t b e a b le to te ll y o u w h e r e i t is t o b e f o u n d . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir, th e ta b l e th a t w e l o o k e d a t , w h e r e th e w o r k w a s d o n e o r n o t d o n e . Page 38 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s th e s a m e – r e s t a s s u r e d Mr T h a b e th e t h a t t h e i t e ms th a t a r e s e t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h n i n e a r e a m ir r o r i m a g e o f w h a t ’s o n th a t t a b l e . I n t h e m e a n ti m e , w e ’ ll f in d t h a t t a b l e f o r you. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B e c a u s e C h a ir, w h y I w a n t t o g o b a c k to t h a t t a b l e b e c a u s e t h a t ’s w h a t t h i s m o n e y w a s f o r. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y w h a t ’s s h e ’s s a y i n g i s t h a t w h il e t h e y w il l lo o k f o r th a t t a b l e i f y o u lo o k a t t h e i t e m s i n p a r a g r a p h 9 o f p a g e 7 7 9 th o s e it e m r e f le c t w h a t is i n th a t t a b l e , m a y b e t h a t m i g h t a s s i s t y o u . 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: I t d o e s a s s is t y o u ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. It does yes. O k a y, a lr i g h t, y e s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B e c a u s e th o s e a r e t h e i t e m s t h a t w e r e q u ir e d t o b e d e a l t w i t h w i th i n t h e f ir s t R 3 0 m il li o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o k a y, M s G c a b a s h e y o u w i ll k n o w w h e t h e r th a t a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t io n o r n o t ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d y e t M r Th a b e t h e w h e n – m a y b e I s h o u l d s t a r t i t fr o m th e b e g i n n i n g . S o y o u w e r e a w a r e , w h e n y o u a s k e d 20 f o r th a t m o n e y fr o m P r o v in c e t h a t, t h a t m o n e y w a s g o in g t o b e u s e d f o r la n d a c q u is i t io n , e n v ir o n m e n ta l i m p a c t a s s e s s m e n t , f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y, water r e t ic u l a ti o n , e l e c tr i c i ty c o n n e c t io n , e l e c tr ic i t y c o n n e c t io n a p p lic a ti o n s , id e n ti fi c a t io n o f b e n e fi c i a r i e s i n A g r i B E E e n t i ty, s e t- u p A g r i B E E e n t i ty a n d [i n d is t i n c t] o f r o l e o f s t a k e h o l d e r s . D r a w u p p r o j e c t plan for phase two, determine date for capital injection by Estina. Page 39 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I – C h a ir m a n if y o u w il l i n d u l g e m e , t h e r e I a d o c u m e n t I w a n t t o s h o w y o u i n t h a t c a s e M r Th a b e t h e a n d w e ’l l c o m e b a c k t o t h is o n e , w h e r e E s ti n a g iv e s o n e o f i t ’s m o n t h l y r e p o r t s , a r e p o r t t h a t t h e R 3 0 m i ll io n t h a t t h e y r e c e i v e d fr o m y o u w a s r e ta i n e d f o r p u r p o s e s o f p u r c h a s in g t h e m il k i n g p a r l o u r, d o y o u k n o w a n y th in g a b o u t t h a t, d o y o u w a n t m e to r e p e a t t h a t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: 10 C h a ir c a n w e … D i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e q u e s t io n o r Ms G c a b a s h e s t il l … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I h a v e a d o c u m e n t I ’ m h a p p y to s h o w h i m C h a ir m a n . R e fe r e n c e b u n d l e D p a g e 1 4 0 3 i t is t h e q u a r te r ly r e p o r t f o r October 31st, 2012. CHAIRPERSON: What was the page, 403? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: CHAIRPERSON: 1 4 0 3 C h a ir m a n . 1 4 0 3 , o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ar e y o u t h e r e Mr T h a b e t h e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 20 Ye s I a m . Ex c e ll e n t, s o y o u s e e h e r e t h is is t h e c a s h fl o w o f E s ti n a ( P ty ) L t d , f r o m J u l y 2 0 1 2 , Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t , I’ m r e a d in g w h a t’s w r it t e n h e r e , J u l y 2 0 1 2 , A u g u s t 2 0 1 2 , S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 2 , October 2012. S o u r c e o f fu n d s , th e r e ’s a n o p e n i n g b a la n c e th a t t h e y r e fe r t o , t h e n t h e y r e f e r t o t h e g r a n t r e c e i v e d f r o m y o u r d e p a r t m e n t , d o y o u s e e t h a t , i n J u l y o n th e 9 t h o f J u ly a c t u a l ly. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s . Page 40 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: R 3 0 m i ll io n , t h e n w h e n y o u lo o k a t th e a p p lic a ti o n o f f u n d s , y o u fi n d i n l i n e tw o t h e y r e s e r v e d f o r p a r l o u r e q u ip m e n t R 2 9 m il li o n . N o w m a y b e y o u h a v e a b e t te r e x p l a n a t io n t h a n t h e o n e I h a v e b e e n a b l e t o p u t t o g e t h e r. M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th is e n tr y is th a t R 2 9 m il li o n o f h e R 3 0 m i ll io n y o u a d v a n c e d w a s p a r k e d , p u t a w a y f o r p u r p o s e s o f p u r c h a s i n g m ilk i n g p a r l o u r e q u i p m e n t . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir t h a t ’s w h a t t h e r e p o r t says. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 S o i t c a n ’ t b e c o r r e c t t h a t t h e f ir s t R 3 0 m i ll io n w a s to b e a p p l ie d f o r th e it e m s t h a t y o u h a v e i d e n ti f ie d in p a r a g r a p h n i n e , w h ic h a r e t h e s a m e i t e m s , I ’l l g iv e y o u y o u r c o l u m n , y o u l is t th a t y o u w e r e a s k in g f o r e a r li e r, it ’s r e f e r e n c e f il e D , e x a c t ly t h e s a m e f i le t h a t y o u ’r e h o l d i n g b u t t h e p a g e r e f e r e n c e is 1 3 7 8 , i f y o u g o t o 1 3 7 8 , s a m e f il e , f il e D , 1 3 7 8 , ju s t t o g iv e y o u a s e n s e o f c o m f o r t y o u ’ ll s e e th o s e E s ti n a o b l i g a t io n s f o r t h e f ir s t p h a s e t h a t w e w e r e d is c u s s in g o n . CHAIRPERSON: D id y o u s a y 1 3 7 5 ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: CHAIRPERSON: 20 1 3 7 8 C h a ir m a n . Sorry 1378. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s C h a ir m a n , s o y o u a r e a b le t o r e l a t e t h e t w o lis t s t h e y a r e e x a c t ly th e s a m e a s I s u g g e s t e d e a r l i e r. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s t h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h e p a g e 1 4 0 3 w a s a r e p o r t t h a t w e r e c e i v e d fr o m E s ti n a , n o w a r e p o r t d o e s n ’ t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n w e a g r e e , s o t h i s w a s a r e p o r t t h a t w a s p r e s e n t e d t o u s to s a y, t h i s is w h a t w e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . Page 41 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 CHAIRPERSON: Th is i s w h a t E s ti n a w a s d e a l i n g w i t h . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s , h o w e v e r i f y o u s e e t h e n t h e f o ll o w i n g r e p o r t, a f t e r th e d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n u s a n d Es t in a , w e d id n o t n e c e s s a r i ly a g r e e . H e n c e y o u w i ll r e a l is e t h e q u e s t i o n t h a t th e evidence leader asked me last week, if you were aware of any money t h a t Es t in a h a s p a i d . N o w i f y o u lo o k a t t h e n e x t q u a r t e r r e p o r t , t h e s t a tu s q u o h a d c h a n g e d b e c a u s e w e h a d b e e n i n d is c u s s i n g s a y i n g w e d o n ’t r e a l ly a g r e e b e c a u s e t h i s is w h a t t h e m o n e y h a s b e e n a l lo c a t e d f o r. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: A n d th is i s w h a t y o u r r e p o r t is s a y in g , s o t h a t w a s a n o n g o i n g , b e c a u s e t h is w a s a r e p o r t p r e s e n te d t o u s a n d th e n y o u e n g a g e d th e r e p o r t , y o u m a k e t h e n e c e s s a r y c h a n g e s o n t h e r e p o r t. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C a n y o u t h e n j u s t a s s is t m e w i t h t h e d i ff ic u l ty I h a v e M r Th a b e t h e , i f y o u b e l i e v e t h a t t h e R 3 0 m i lli o n w a s u s e d t o d e a l w i t h Es t in a ’s o b l i g a t io n s fo r t h e f ir s t p h a s e , a n d Es t in a b e li e v e d th a t , t h a t R 3 0 m i ll io n i t’s r e a ll y m i n u s R 1 m i ll i o n , R 2 9 m i ll io n w a s fo r e n ti r e ly d i ff e r e n t p u r p o s e . H o w i s it t h a t y o u w e r e a b le t o s i g n 20 o ff o n Es t in a h a v i n g m e t i ts o b li g a t i o n s f o r th e fir s t p h a s e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir, i f I m a y c o m e b a c k h e r e , h e r e w e w e r e d e a li n g w i t h i s s u e s o f c a s h fl o w, i t w a s a m a t te r o f w h i c h f ir s t . N o w a c c o r d i n g t o t h e m t h e y t h o u g h t w e w o u l d d e la y t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e d e a li n g w i t h y o u r f e a s ib il it y s t u d y a n d s o o n a n d m a y b e a d v a n c e th e m o n e y f o r t h e a c q u is i t io n o f e q u i p m e n t , s o t h a t w e Page 42 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e n – w e ’r e a b l e to s e c u r e b e c a u s e it t a k e s a b i t o f ti m e t o s e c u r e some of this equipment. S o t h a t w a s t h e ir t h in k i n g w h ic h i t d id n o t n e c e s s a r i ly because agree with we thought, b e fo r e you secure e q u ip m e n t y o u r f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y m u s t a g r e e w it h y o u . S o w e t h o u g h t , b e f o r e y o u c a n e v e n s e c u r e t h o s e e q u ip m e n t l e t ’s c h e c k i f, i n d e e d , w e a r e g o in g t o b e a b l e t o d o w h a t w e a r e e x p e c te d t o d o . Hence I’m s a y in g t h e r e p o r t v e r s u s w h a t t h e y h a v e b e e n r e p o r ti n g t o u s , m a y n o t n e c e s s a r i ly m e a n t h a t is w h a t w a s i m p le m e n t e d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 M r T h a b e th e , s o o n t h e 5 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 2 y o u s i g n e d t h a t f ir s t a g r e e m e n t w i th E s t in a . In s i g n i n g t h a t f ir s t a g r e e m e n t w i t h Es t in a y o u c o m m i t t e d – G o v e r n m e n t , y o u r D e p a r t m e n t t o t h e p a y m e n t o f R 11 4 m il li o n o v e r a th r e e - y e a r p e r i o d , a m I c o r r e c t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. N o w tw o t h in g s a r is e , th e fi r s t q u e s t io n is , h a d y o u p r o v i d e d f o r th is R 11 4 m il li o n a n d i f s o , h o w h a d y o u d o n e s o a n d I ’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u s i g n e d t h a t a g r e e m e n t o f t h e 5 t h o f June. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir, w e h a d d o n e o u r d u e d i li g e n c e a s a d e p a r t m e n t , w e h a d g o n e to t h e E x e c u ti v e c o u n c i l to a p p r o v e t h e 20 p r o j e c t a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a s a ls o r e f e r r e d t o t h e p r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y t o th e b u d g e t c o u n c i l s o t h a t w e c a n t h e n r a i s e t h e n e c e s s a r y m o n e y f o r t h e p r o je c t. I h a d a lr e a d y e n g a g e d w i t h t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e w h o h a d a l r e a d y g iv e n u s a n d i n d ic a ti o n th a t w e c a n , fr o m t h e m o n e y a ll o c a te d fr o m t h e Pr o v i n c e w e c a n s o u r c e m o n e y to p a y t h e p r o j e c t . S o b y th a t ti m e w e h a d a lr e a d y d o n e o u r p a r t . H e n c e i f y o u Page 43 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 lo o k a t t h e y e a r t h a t p r e c e d e s t h a t, t h a t e x a c t a m o u n t w a s m a d e a v a i la b le t o t h e b u d g e t fo r t h e p r o j e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u s p e a k o f a n e x a c t a m o u n t , b e f o r e I g o t o my r e a l q u e s t i o n , e x a c t a m o u n t , w h a t a r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I m e a n t h e a ll o c a ti o n o f R 11 4 m il li o n per annum. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Was provided where – was provided for where? MR 10 MBANA PETER THABETHE: In our Department, in our d e p a r t m e n ta l b u d g e t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: O f w h ic h y e a r ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Of the year 2012/2013. N o w t h i s is a t h r e e - y e a r c y c l e , t h e y e a r 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 s t a r t e d o n t h e 1 s t o f A p r i l . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d w h a t p o i n t d id y o u p r o v i d e fo r t h e R 11 4 m il li o n f o r j u s t th a t o n e f i n a n c i a l y e a r a n d t h e n fo r t h e s e c o n d fi n a n c i a l y e a r a n d t h e th ir d , b e c a u s e I k n o w y o u w o r k i n t h r e e y e a r cycles? 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir w h e n w e d o o u r t h r e e - y e a r b u d g e t c y c le w e m a k e s u r e t h a t, t h a t m o n e y is a v a i la b l e . It m e a n s w h e n w e m o v e t o t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 b u d g e t w e h a d a lr e a d y a ll o c a t e d th e t h r e e y e a r c y c l e a n d th e p r o o f t o t h a t w o u l d b e t h a t in t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 fi n a n c i a l y e a r th a t m o n e y w a s s i t ti n g i n o u r b u d g e t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o i t w a s n o t Mr Th a b e t h e a r e y o u Page 44 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t a lk in g a b o u t t h e R 11 4 m i ll o n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s i n t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 f i n a n c ia l y e a r i t was. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I t w a s n o t, w h ic h is w h y y o u h a d t o g o t o E x c o a n d w h y E x c o a p p r o v e d , a n d I ’ m g o i n g t o r e a d fr o m t h e E x c o m e m o o f t h e 1 3 t h J u n e 2 0 1 2 , t h e r e a r e v a r io u s is s u e s th a t th e d e a l t w i t h b u t I’ ll r e a d t h e – w h a t ’s r e le v a n t , s o t h e Ex c o c o u n c il , C h a i r m a n i f y o u w a n t e d t o l o o k a t i t y o u r s e l f i t ’s o n p a g e 3 2 3 o f t h e r e fe r e n c e bundle A. 10 CHAIRPERSON: J a m a y b e it m i g h t n o t b e n e c e s s a r y j a , o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d t h e c o p y is n o t a g r e a t c o p y s o I k n o w y o u w i ll n o t b e h a p p y w i t h i t . C a n I r e a d th is C h a ir m a n ? CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o E x c o a p p r o v e d t h e f o l lo w in g r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s , “ 1 ) T h e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f th e p r o p o s e d i n t e g r a t e d Vr e d e D a ir y A g r i b u s in e s s p r o je c t, i t’s i m p le m e n t a ti o n . 2) E x c o s u p p o r t e d t h e s o u r c in g o f a d d i ti o n a l f u n d i n g o f R 8 4 m i ll io n fo r t h i s c u r r e n t fi n a n c i a l y e a r fr o m t h e P r o v i n c e ” . 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: C h a ir le t m e c o r r e c t m y s ta t e m e n t . Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 i t ’s w h e n w e h a d t h e R 3 0 m i ll io n , m a y b e I c o n f u s e d m y s e lf s o m e w h a t . it ’s w h e n w e h a d t h e R 3 0 m i ll io n . Ye s , th e 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 Th e 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 t h a t ’s t h e y e a r t h e n w h e n w e h a d t h e fu ll b u d g e t a ll o c a ti o n , I t h in k I j u s t n e e d t o c o r r e c t Page 45 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 m y s e l f th e r e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I’m happy to make peace with that, yes. N o w in t h is 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 y e a r y o u th e r e fo r e h a d a s h o r t f a l l o f R 8 4 m il li o n . MR MB A NA PETER TH A B ETH E: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Th a t ’s c o r r e c t c h a ir . A n d w h a t E x c o w a s p e r m i t ti n g y o u to d o w a s t o f in d t h is m o n e y s o m e w h e r e i n t h e P r o v in c e fr o m w h e r e v e r, y o u ’ ll e x p l a i n w h e r e it w o u ld h a v e c o m e f r o m b u t th a t ’s w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d them to have allowed you to do? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Where was this money going to come fr o m M r T h a b e th e , i f y o u c o u l d h e l p u s u n d e r s t a n d , th e R 8 4 m il li o n ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir, t h e P r o v i n c e n o r m a l ly h a s i ts own revenue advancement strategies and then each department goes a n d b i d f o r th a t m o n e y, i t ’s a p o o l o f m o n e y t h a t y o u h a v e t o m o ti v a t e fr o m o w n r e v e n u e i f y o u w o u l d b e a l l o c a t e d t h a t m o n e y. Now part of t h e s t r a t e g y w a s a ls o t o g o in t h e r e a n d b i d fo r t h a t m o n e y fo r t h e R 8 4 m i ll io n w h ic h th e n b e c o m e s a ll o c a te d t o y o u r d u r i n g th e a d ju s t m e n t . T h e n t h e y a ls o i n d i c a t e d t o u s , w e m u s t in t e r a c t w i t h t h e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t i o n , s o t h a t th e y c a n a l s o s e e if t h e y c a n n o t 20 a s s is t u s i n f i n d i n g m o n e y, t h a t is w h a t E x c o i n d i c a t e d t o u s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Th a t is c o r r e c t a n d t h e l a s t li n e h e r e a c t u a lly, ju s t t o c o m p l e t e w h a t E x c o s a i d , i t s a i d f o r t h e n e x t t h r e e y e a r s t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f a g r ic u l t u r e w i ll h a v e t o p a y R 11 3 , I th i n k t h e y m e a n t t o s a y R 11 3 m il li o n , e s s e n ti a l ly a c k n o w le d g i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d b e b u d g e t i n g n o w f o r h is p a r t ic u l a r e x p e n s e . Page 46 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Yo u s e e t h e r e a s o n t h a t t h e i s s u e o f p r o v i d in g fo r c o n tr a c t u a l o b li g a ti o n s i s i m p o r t a n t Mr T h a b e t h e is b e c a u s e a s w e s a id o n Fr id a y – T h u r s d a y / Fr id a y l a s t w e e k S e c ti o n 3 8 o f th e P F M A s a y s a n a c c o u n ti n g o ff ic e r m a y n o t c o m m i t a d e p a r t m e n t , tr a d i n g e n ti t y o r a n y c o n s t i tu t io n a l i n s t it u t io n t o a n y li a b i li ty fo r w h ic h m o n e y h a s n o t b e e n a p p r o p r ia t e d . M y r e a d in g o f w h a t h a p p e n e d i s r e s p e c t o f th a t f ir s t R 11 4 m il li o n y o u r e q u ir e d f o r th e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t is t h a t y o u , o n s ig n i n g t h e a g r e e m e n t o f t h e 5 t h o f J u n e a n d 10 t h e n a g a in t h e a g r e e m e n t o f J u l y t h e 5 t h , c o m m i t t e d t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o o b li g a ti o n s w h e r e m o n e y h a d n o t b e e n a p p r o p r i a t e d t o m e e t t h o s e o b li g a ti o n s , w o u l d y o u a g r e e w i t h m e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir, t h e c o m m i t m e n t i s w h a t h a d b e e n a g r e e d u p o n a n d t h e n y o u a g r e e a n d t h e n y o u a l lo c a t e t h e m o n e y in t e r m s o f – b e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t a ll o c a t e t h e m o n e y b e fo r e y o u g e t a p p r o v a l . Yo u g e t t h e a p p r o v a l a n d t h e n y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y, y e s , n o w t h a t w e h a v e a n a p p r o v a l , w e c a n c o m m i t , E x e c u t iv e c o u n c il h a s a g r e e d t h a t t h is p r o je c t m u s t b e u n d e r t a k e n . N o w l o ts o f a g r e e m e n ts w e d o d u r i n g t h e y e a r, b u t t h e b u d g e t g e ts a ll o c a t e d t o y o u i n t h e b e g i n n i n g o f 20 t h e n e w f in a n c ia l y e a r. I f th e r e i s m o n e y a v a i la b le t h e y w il l a l lo c a t e to y o u to s a y, a t t h e m e a n ti m e d o 1 , 2 , 3 w i th t h is e x is ti n g b u d g e t b u t t h e n y o u r f u l l s c o p e o f th e b u d g e t t h e n g e t s a ll o c a te d to y o u in th e fu ll fi n a n c i a l y e a r, a s a g r e e d u p o n . T h e n it b e c a m e m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty d u r i n g th a t t i m e t o b e a b le to m a k e s u r e t h a t , t h a t l i n e i t e m is p r o p e r l y b u d g e t e d f o r i n t h e n e w fi n a n c i a l y e a r. If n o t t h e n I’ ll g o b a c k t o b o t h Page 47 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 Tr e a s u r y a n d e x e c u ti v e c o u n c i l a n d s a y, w e w il l n o t b e a b l e to m e e t t h e c o m m i t m e n t b e c a u s e o f 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 w e d o n ’ t h a v e t h e m o n e y, w e c a n ’ t fi n d th e m o n e y b u t i f i t h a s b e e n a g r e e d u p o n t h e n I w i ll b e a b le t o b u d g e t f o r i t a n d m a k e i t a v a i la b le . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t th e f a c ts a s t h e y r e l a t e to th e 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 f in a n c ia l y e a r w h e r e m o n e y h a d n o t b e e n a p p r o p r i a t e d , R 11 4 m il li o n h a d n o t b e e n a p p r o p r i a t e d , th e f a c t s a r e t h a t , w h a t y o u a s t h e a c c o u n t in g o ff ic e r t h e n d i d is – fa l ls w it h in th e p a r a m e t e r s o f fi n a n c i a l m is c o n d u c t a s s e t- o u t i n t h e P F M A , o r a m I w r o n g ? 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o C h a ir th e b u d g e t – y o u c a n n o t m a k e t h e b u d g e t a v a il a b l e i n t h e s a m e f i n a n c i a l y e a r o f t h e a p p r o v a l b e c a u s e y o u a lr e a d y h a v e a d e s e r t e d b u d g e t i n t h a t y e a r. Th e c o m m i t m e n t t a k e s y o u to th e n e x t y e a r. I f , d u r i n g a c u r r e n t fi n a n c i a l y e a r y o u m a k e a c o m m i t m e n t , t h a t c o m m i t m e n t b e c o m e s e ff e c ti v e in t h e n e x t f i n a n c i a l y e a r, b e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t t h e n – u n l e s s y o u w a n to d o a b u d g e t a d ju s t m e n t i n t h e w h o l e d e p a r t m e n t b u t i n t h i s in s ta n c e i t ’s s a y in g you must make money fo r the next three years. My u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s th a t s ta r t i n g fr o m 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 I m u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t, t h a t m o n e y is b u d g e te d fo r. 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d y e t my u n d e r s t a n d in g i s th a t h a d y o u w a i te d w it h t h i s p r o j e c t a n d h a d n o t r u s h e d i t , h a d y o u t h e n p r o v id e d f o r i t a s y o u a r e n o w s u g g e s ti n g i n t h e f o ll o w i n g y e a r, y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n f u ll c o m p li a n c e w it h t h e P F M A . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I d o n ’ t s e e w h e r e I d i d n o t c o m p ly C h a ir. Page 48 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s o r m a y b e le t ’s u n d e r s t a n d , m a y b e y o u c o u ld j u s t r e a d t h a t p r o v i s i o n M s G c a b a s h e if i t’s i n f r o n t o f y o u , o f t h e P F M A . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I t ’s S e c ti o n 3 8 ( 2 ) C h a i r m a n , i t i s h e r e a n d it r e a d s a s f o ll o w s : “ A n a c c o u n ti n g o ffi c e m a y n o t c o m m i t a d e p a r t m e n t , tr a d i n g e n t i ty o r a n y c o n s t i tu t io n a l i n s ti t u ti o n t o a n y li a b i li ty f o r w h ic h money has not been appropriated”. CHAIRPERSON: S o I g u e s s t h a t th e q u e s ti o n w o u l d b e w h e t h e r y o u c o m m i t t e d t h e d e p a r t m e n t to a l i a b il i ty, w h a t th a t li a b i li ty w a s a n d 10 w h e t h e r m o n e y h a d b e e n a p p r o p r i a t e d fo r t h a t l i a b il it y a t t h e ti m e y o u c o m m i t t e d th e d e p a r t m e n t . I t h i n k t h o s e w o u ld b e t h e f e a tu r e s to l o o k a t. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: Ye s I h e a r C h a ir, m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is th a t g iv e n th e a p p r o v a l s , I w a s m a n d a t e d t o c o m m i t b e c a u s e t h o s e a p p r o v a l s w e r e g r a n t e d t o m e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: A p p r o v a l s g r a n te d b y E x c o ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: By t h e E x e c u ti v e c o u n c i l y e s C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a ir m a n , b u t t h e c o m m i t t a l – y o u s ig n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t o n t h e 5 t h o f J u n e , t h e f ir s t a g r e e m e n t 2 0 1 2 , y o u 20 o n ly a p p r o a c h e d E x c o a f te r t h a t . S o w h e n y o u a p p r o a c h e d Ex c o y o u ’ d a lr e a d y c o m m i t te d y o u r d e p a r t m e n t t o o b li g a ti o n s a r is in g fr o m t h e a g r e e m e n t o f th e 5 t h o f J u n e , w o u l d y o u a g r e e w it h t h a t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o C h a ir, w e h a d a l r e a d y g o t a p p r o v a l f r o m E x c o b e f o r e th e y i n d ic a te d E x e c u t iv e m e m o r a n d u m , I Page 49 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h i n k I h a d a ls o i n d ic a t e d t h a t th e r e w e r e o t h e r p r e s e n t a ti o n s a n d approvals before this one. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e d i ffi c u l ty I h a v e w i t h t h a t p r o p o s i ti o n is t h e r e w e r e tw o s u b m is s io n s t h a t w e r e m a d e to E x c o , th e fir s t o n w a s w h e n D r M a s i t e n g w a s o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y, t h a t ’s t h e o n e o f t h e 2 6 t h o f M a y, t h e s e c o n d o n e w a s t h e o n e o f J u n e – o f th e 5 t h o f J u ly. N o w th is E x c o r e s o l u t i o n s p e a k s t o y o u i m p l e m e n ti n g t h e p r o je c t, i t d o e s n ’ t s a y w e a p p r o v e t h e p r o j e c t a n d i t m a y b e , M r T h a b e th e th a t th e r e a r e d o c u m e n ts t h a t I d o n o t h a v e t h a t y o u k n o w e x is t t o s u p p o r t w h a t y o u 10 a r e s a y i n g b u t t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t h a v e b e e n f u r n is h e d t o u s , t h e r e ’s n o o th e r d o c u m e n t , o th e r t h a n th e s u b m is s io n s a n d t h e n th is E x c o r e s o l u ti o n . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir I t h i n k t h a t ’s w h a t th e n w e m a y n e e d t o g o b a c k a n d c h e c k , t h o s e a p p r o v a l s p r io r t o t h is s u b m i s s io n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s t h e n m a y b e w h a t m a y h a v e t o b e d o n e is i f y o u in d i c a t e – i f y o u g iv e t h e le g a l te a m e n o u g h i n fo r m a t i o n f o r th e m t o b e a b l e t o w r i t e t o th e D e p a r t m e n t a n d s a y e x a c tl y w h a t t h e y a r e a s k i n g f o r, t h a t w o u ld h e l p . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 CHAIRPERSON: T h a n k s C h a ir, I w i ll d o s o . Ja. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t c a n I j u s t s ta y i n t h i s g e n e r a l a r e a a n d a s k y o u a b o u t t h e o th e r tw o p r o je c t s t h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d i n y o u r s u b m is s io n to th e Pr e m ie r d a t e d t h e 2 4 t h o f Fe b r u a r y w h e n y o u w e r e a s k in g p e r m is s i o n t o g o to I n d i a . P r o je c t. S o y o u m e n ti o n e d t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Yo u m e n t io n e d th e Q w a Q w a P r o j e c t a n d t h e n th e t h ir d o n e Page 50 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 w a s t h e S i ts o t h o P r o j e c t . Yo u r e c a ll th a t? W e d is c u s s e d th a t la s t week. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h a t d o y o u k n o w a b o u t t h e S i ts o t h o I n t e g r a te d D a ir y P r o je c t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a i r w e – w e h a d a lr e a d y a g r e e d la s t w e e k t h a t w e w il l a p p r o a c h th e D e p a r t m e n t s o t h a t t h e y p r o v id e t h e c o m m i s s io n w i t h t h a t r e p o r t. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I h a v e i t. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f y o u g o t o – C h a ir m a n if I m i g h t i n d ic a te a n d a ls o to y o u M r T h a b e t h e t h a t s o m e o f y o u r c o ll e a g u e s – f o r m e r c o l l e a g u e s w e r e l is t e n in g t o y o u r e v id e n c e l a s t w e e k . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h e y t a k e i s s u e w i th – i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e y d is a g r e e w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e y o u h a v e g i v e n . S o t h e y s e n t u s t h a t p a r t ic u l a r r e p o r t w h ic h y o u w il l fi n d i n t h e R e p o r ts B u n d le . I t w a s j u s t e a s i e r t o p u t i t in th e R e p o r t s B u n d l e . S o t h e r e i s a R e p o r ts B u n d l e a n d i t is – i t s h o u l d b e w h e r e i t e m 2 8 is . 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o r r y C h a ir t h e r e is A a n d B . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It is in B because it has just been added. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I a ls o i n d ic a t e Mr T h a b e th e t h a t t h e y a r e – t h e y h a v e i n d ic a t e d th a t t h e y w o u ld l ik e t o c o m e t o t h e c o m m i s s io n to g i v e t h e ir v e r s i o n w h ic h i s h e a l th y. Page 51 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is fi n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d th is i s o n e o f t h e d o c u m e n ts I a m a s s u m i n g t h e y w il l b e r e ly i n g o n . C h a ir m a n t h e y h a v e w r i t t e n a l e t te r to you. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h ic h w e h a d – w e h a v e a c o p y o f. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h e r e t h e y in d i c a t e t h a t t h e y w o u l d l ik e to come to the commission then they have asked to meet the evidence 10 le a d e r s . I t o n ly a r r i v e d y e s t e r d a y C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o w e w il l e n g a g e w i th th e m a f t e r t h is . W e w e r e a l r e a d y p r e p a r i n g fo r t h i s . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e . Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a i r I i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e r e w a s a s t u d y th a t w a s d o n e b e t w e e n th e D e p a r t m e n t I t h i n k w i t h G e r m a n y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u d i d . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : [ In d is ti n c t ] t h a t is t h e o n e th a t I h a d t h e n r e q u e s t e d t h a t it b e s o u r c e d fr o m th e D e p a r t m e n t. 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . L e t m e in t e r r u p t y o u . I t h i n k b r in g y o u r m ic r o p h o n e c l o s e r a li t t le b i t t o y o u j u s t a l it t le b i t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y. Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s . I ju s t w a n t t o c h e c k t h e p a g e n u m b e r C h a ir. Page 52 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Oh it is under item 28 I hope they have fl a g g e d i t. I t is a c tu a lly th e l a s t r e p o r t in B M r T h a b e t h e . T h e v e r y l a s t r e p o r t . It s h o u l d b e u n d e r i t e m 2 8 . T h a t s h o u ld b e t h e o n e . CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gcabashe. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o w h a v e a n u m b e r o f t h e s e le v e r a r c h f il e s o p e n e d h e r e . T h i s is n o w t h e f o u r t h o n e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a i r m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e m u s t b e s o m e t h a t w e s h o u l d p u t – b e a b le t o 10 p u t a w a y f o r n o w. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I w o u ld a s k y o u C h a ir m a n i f y o u c o u l d p l e a s e k e e p th e m o p e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t c l o s e th e m . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o C h a ir m a n . M y a p o l o g ie s . A n d p a r t o f t h e – t h e r e a s o n C h a i r m a n is a s w e g o t b e tt e r c o p i e s o f s o m e th i n g w e w o u ld t h e n p u t t h e m i n a n o th e r fi le . W e CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Because we have been trying to get c le a r e r c o p i e s . W e h a d v e r y b a d c o p i e s t o s ta r t w i t h o f d o c u m e n t s . I 20 d o a p o l o g is e C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: But… C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I w i ll g o t h r o u g h t h e m a t e r ia l v e r y s l o w ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w o n t h is la t e s t o n e . Page 53 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is p a r t ic u l a r o n e . CHAIRPERSON: Are we at page 01. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : S i ts o t h o I n te g r a te d D a ir y Pr o je c t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w i f I m i g h t s a y a s y o u t a lk t o u s a b o u t t h is p r o j e c t a n d p u t i t in p e r s p e c tiv e a s th e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: As I u n d e r s t a n d t h e – t h e – o n e o f t h e c o m p la i n t s fr o m t h e w i t n e s s e s w h o w i l l c o m e t h e y s a y t h a t t h is p a r t ic u l a r d a ir y p r o j e c t p r e c e d e d Vr e d e a n d y o u s t o l e t h e ir id e a a n d m o v e d i t t o Vr e d e . Yo u d o n o t w a n t to c o m e b a c k t o o m a n y t i m e s . Yo u m i g h t a s w e l l d e a l w i t h th a t . And just explain how as the Head of D e p a r t m e n t – y o u a r e t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t h o w y o u r e l a t e d to th is d o c u m e n t ? W h a t y o u r jo b w a s i n t e r m s o f a l ig n in g d o c u m e n ts e t c e t e r a , e tc e t e r a ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t c a n n o t b e tr u e . H o w d o y o u s t e a l o n e p r o je c t a n d i m p l e m e n t i t s o m e w h e r e ? 20 This p r o j e c t w a s j o i n tly d o n e b e t w e e n th e Pr o v i n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t th is … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e r e fl e c t e d in t h is d o c u m e n t n o w ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a t h is – le t m e j u s t t a lk t o t h is o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: c a m e to t h e Fr e e S t a t e . Th is e x e r c is e s ta r t e d e v e n b e f o r e I B e f o r e I c a m e in th e r e i t h a d a lr e a d y b e e n Page 54 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 d o n e . T h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f c h a l l e n g e s in t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h is – what I understood was th a t th e r e was a problem in the i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h i s p r o j e c t . A n d i t is n o t e v e n th e s a m e i d e a o f th e Vr e d e D a i r y. T h e s e a r e t w o – t h i s w a s a c o w h o te l e x a c t ly c r a f t e d i n t h e m o d e l o f G e r m a n y a n d th e n t h i s p r o je c t a c t u a ll y t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a s s u p p o r ti n g S i t s o t h o M u n ic i p a l i ty. T h e y w e r e t h e in i ti a to r s o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d w e c a m e t o s u p p o r t th e m a n d my u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t e v e n p a id f o r t h e f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y to b e d o n e . But p r o b le m s c a m e o n t h e i m p l e m e n t a t i o n b e tw e e n t h e t h r e e p a r t ie s 10 S i ts o th o , t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e G e r m a n p a r t o f i t . So when I came t h e s e e x is t e d a l r e a d y b u t t h e r e w e r e c h a ll e n g e s . A n d th e m o d e l a r e f a r fr o m e a c h o t h e r. T h e y a r e n o t t h e s a m e . S o i t c a n n o t b e t h a t y o u c a n s t e a l th is m o d e l a n d g o a n d i m p l e m e n t i t d i ff e r e n t ly. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u s e e … C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s M s G c a b a s h e t h a t m a y b e th e r e w i ll h a v e t o b e a n o p p o r t u n i ty a f t e r y o u h a v e h a d a c h a n c e t o i n t e r v ie w t h o s e o ff ic i a ls w h o h a v e s a i d t h e y w o u l d lik e to c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d y o u – y o u h a v e f u l l i n f o r m a t i o n a s to h o w t h e y m o t iv a t e o r s u b s t a n ti a te t h e a l le g a ti o n t h a t th e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o je c t c o n s ti t u te d th e f t o f th is p r o je c t 20 a n d t h e n t h a t c a n b e p u t t o h i m s o t h a t h e c a n d e a l w i th i t p r o p e r l y k n o w i n g e x a c tl y w h a t t h e g r o u n d s a r e fo r s a y i n g h e s t o l e t h e p r o j e c t w h e r e th is – w h e r e a r e t h e s i m i la r i ti e s a n d s o o n i n t h e tw o p r o j e c ts . S o I a m j u s t m e n ti o n i n g th a t b e c a u s e y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t y o u – y o u a r e s t il l t o – y o u o n ly g o t t h e in f o r m a ti o n y e s t e r d a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . Page 55 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: J a . C h a ir i f I m a y a d d ? My u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s w e r e o w n e d b y th e D e p a r t m e n t b e c a u s e i t is th e D e p a r t m e n t th a t p a i d f o r. S o I a m j u s t th in k i n g n o t – I a m n o t a d mi t t in g i t w a s s to l e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m s a y i n g e v e n i t w a s s t o le n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is th e p r o p e r ty o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B u t t h e c o n c e p ts a r e d i ffe r e n t fr o m e a c h o th e r. CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Mr T h a b e th e n o w I w o u l d a s s u m e t h a t – I w o u ld a s s u m e t h a t t h e Q w a Q w a Pr o j e c t , t h e S i ts o t h o P r o j e c t a n d t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t w o u l d a l l h a v e f a ll e n u n d e r M a h u m a M o b u n g ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M a y b e w e s h o u ld j u s t b r i n g th e Q w a Q w a P r o je c t in n o w t h a t w e k n o w a b o u t th e s e t w o . The other two. What h a p p e n e d t o th e Q w a Q w a P r o je c t? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e r e a r e s t il l in e x i s te n c e t h e s m a ll h o l d e r s t h a t w e h a v e s u p p o r t e d w h o h a v e b e e n d o i n g s m a l l d a ir ie s . T h e b i g g e r p ic tu r e t h e r e m y u n d e r s t a n d in g th e r e u s e d to b e a n o l d d a ir y th a t u s e d to b e lo n g t o th e t h e n Q w a Q w a g o v e r n m e n t th a t h a d b e e n v i s i t e d a n u m b e r o f t i m e s w h ic h s t o o d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o b e renovated and reassessed. B u t t h a t p r o j e c t d id n o t b e l o n g to th e Page 56 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t . A n d i n l o o k in g a t t h a t i n fr a s tr u c tu r e i t h a d b e c o m e v e r y o l d a n d d i l a p id a t e d . functional. I t is n o n - S o o n e o f t h e b ig g e r p ic tu r e w a s e v e n tu a lly to d e a l w i th t h a t . B u t th e b u d g e t t h a t w a s a l lo c a t e d t o Q w a Q w a w a s n o t fo r th a t in it i a t iv e i t w a s t o e s ta b l is h s m a ll d a ir i e s o n f a r ms . K e e p i n g in m i n d t h a t t h e r e c o u ld b e a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o g o a n d r e h a b il i ta t e t h a t d a ir y. B u t h is b u d g e t t h a t w e t a l k i n g a b o u t h e r e w a s to a s s is t th e s m a ll h o l d e r f a r m e r s w i th t h e ir o w n s m a l l d a ir i e s o n t h e f a r m s fo r th e m t o b e a b l e t o m il k . 10 them. H e n c e w e t h e n s a i d l e t u s c o n s o li d a t e . W e n e v e r n e g l e c te d W e p r o c e e d e d s u p p o r ti n g th e m u n d e r th e c o m p r e h e n s i v e a g r ic u lt u r a l s u p p o r t p r o g r a m m e b u t n o t u n d e r M a h u m a M o b u n g . S o t h e y w e r e p r o v i d e d s u p p o r t u n d e r C A S P. S o t h e y w e r e a s s is t e d b u t o n a d i ff e r e n t b u d g e t i te m . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A r e y o u ta lk i n g i n t h i s in s t a n c e a b o u t b o t h t h e Q w a Q w a D a ir y P r o j e c t a n d th e S i ts o t h o I n t e g r a t e d D a ir y Pr o j e c t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: T h e S i ts o th o w e d id n o t t h e Q w a Q w a o n e w e d i d s u p p o r t to t h o s e o n e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d t o th e S i ts o t h o one? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e D e p a r t m e n t c a n s ti ll l o o k a t it a n d i f t h e c h a l le n g e s t h a t e x is t e d t h e n w e r e r e s o l v e d I t h i n k t h e y c a n s t il l p r o c e e d w i t h th e p r o j e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o th e r e a s o n I a s k is b e c a u s e i n y o u r le t t e r t o t h e P r e m ie r y o u s p e c i fi c a ll y m e n ti o n i t. S o I w o u ld a s s u m e d t h a t p a r t o f t h e m o tiv a ti o n th a t th e Pr e m i e r a c c e p te d fr o m y o u w a s t h a t Page 57 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e r e w e r e t h e s e th r e e d a ir y p r o je c t s t h a t t h e Pr o v in c e w o u l d b e s e e k i n g s tr a te g i c p a r t n e r s fo r, fi n a n c e f o r, e tc e t e r a , e tc e t e r a . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I – I a g r e e C h a ir. T h e s e p r o j e c ts c a n n o t b e p u t a s i d e . A l l o f t h e m c a n s ti ll b e a s s i s t e d to p r o c e e d . I t i s a m a t t e r o f t i m e w h ic h o n e f ir s t th e n t h e o th e r o n e . B e c a u s e it m i g h t b e d i ff ic u l t t o d o a ll o f t h e m a t t h e s a m e t i m e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o a s a t 2 0 1 8 w h e n y o u l e f t th e D e p a r t m e n t y o u h a d n o t p u t a n y f u n d i n g i n to t h e S is o th o I n t e g r a t e d D a ir y P r o j e c t ? 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir w e h a d n o t b e c a u s e w e h a d n o t c o m p le t e d a n y o f t h o s e . I th i n k i t w a s a m a tt e r o f p r i o r i t is i n g i f w e w e r e to p r i o r it is e w h e t h e r i t w i ll b e Q w a Q w a f ir s t a f t e r Vr e d e o r S i ts o th o fi r s t . B u t w e h a d n o t d o n e t h a t a t th a t ti m e b e c a u s e w e h a d n o t c o m p l e te d a n y o f th o s e . I t h i n k i t w a s a m a t t e r o f p r i o r i t is in g if w e w e r e to p r i o r it is e w h e t h e r i t w i ll b e Q w a Q w a f ir s t a f t e r Vr e d e o r S i ts o th o fir s t . B u t w e h a d n o t d o n e th a t a t th a t ti m e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: L e t u s c o m e b a c k t o E s ti n a a n d t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u s i g n e d w i t h E s ti n a o n t h e 5 J u n e . C a n I a s k y o u t o lo o k a t R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e D w h ic h i s t h e o n e t h a t w e – w e h a v e b e e n 20 lo o k in g a t q u i t e – q u i te a b i t . S o i t is R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e D . C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u s a y D ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D fo r D o n a l d . CHAIRPERSON: Okay what page? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 1331. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Page 58 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H a v e y o u g o t th a t Mr T h a b e t h e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t I h a v e g o t i t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Right. Now if you look at the next page 1 3 3 2 y o u w i ll n o t ic e t h a t t h a t is y o u r s i g n a tu r e s o t h i s i s th e le t t e r t h a t w a s w r i t te n b y y o u . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u m a y w a n t t o s p e n d ju s t a m i n u te h a v i n g a q u ic k lo o k a t th e l e tt e r b e c a u s e I w a n t to a s k y o u w h a t g a v e r is e t o y o u r w r i ti n g t h is l e t te r. I w a n t y o u r e x p l a n a t io n . 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The second page? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o t h e w h o l e le t t e r. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e w h o l e l e tt e r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o a l l I w a s p o in t in g o u t t o y o u o n t h e s e c o n d p a g e i s t h a t y o u a r e t h e a u th o r o f t h is le t t e r. T h a n k y o u . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Is i t – c a n I tr y a n d s u m m a r is e i t i n a n u t s h e l l o r d o y o u w a n t to e x p l a in ? I a m t h i n k in g o f t i m e . Maybe I s h o u l d a ll o w y o u t o e x p l a i n i n a n u t s h e ll w h a t t h e is s u e i s t h a t y o u w e r e r a is i n g h e r e ? 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a i r t h e is s u e h e r e w e w e r e r e q u e s t e d b y t h e s t a te la w a d v is o r s a f te r th e y h a d r e c e i v e d th e fir s t d o c u m e n t w h a t w a s a g r e e d u p o n w h e r e w e w e r e m a k in g a r e q u e s t o f a tr a n s fe r p a y m e n t . T h e y – m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t t h e a g r e e m e n t w a s r e f e r r e d t o th e s t a t e l a w a d v is o r s b y Tr e a s u r y a n d th e n – th e n t h e y in t e r a c te d w it h u s r e q u e s ti n g t h a t w e s u b m i t a d d i t io n a l d o c u m e n t f o r Page 59 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e m t o b e a b le to d o a s s e s s m e n t . T h i s i s t h e le t t e r t h a t I w r o t e t o – t o – t o A d v o c a te D i tir a a t ta c h in g t h e r e q u e s t e d d o c u m e n ts a n d t r y i n g t o e x p l a i n w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d a n d – a n d th e n g i v i n g t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t t h e y h a v e r e q u e s te d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Now the essence of what you are saying h e r e is th a t y o u b e l i e v e d y o u h a d f o l l o w e d a ll p r o c e s s e s a n d a p p l ie d a ll t h e r ig h t p r o c e d u r e s ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 A n d w h a t y o u w e r e r e q u e s ti n g h e r e w a s t h a t th e y s i g n o ff o n t h e a g r e e m e n t th a t y o u h a d s i g n e d o n t h e 5 J u n e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: h e r e C h a ir. N o t – t h e r e is a lo t o f i s s u e s r a is e d I h a v e a l s o s tr o n g ly u r g e d t h e m t o c o n s id e r a n d a d v i s e . B e c a u s e a lr e a d y t h e r e h a d b e e n a c o n c e r n fr o m Tr e a s u r y h e n c e t h e n in t h is l e t te r I h a v e a l s o s a i d th e y m u s t a ls o a d v is e b u t t h e d o c u m e n t w a s t h e r e . S o th a t th e y c a n h a v e a l o o k a t i t a n d a d v i s e u s if – i f in d e e d i t is n o t c o r r e c t o r w e – w h a t e ls e t h a t w e n e e d e d to d o . S o in a d d i ti o n to t h a t I h a d a ls o p l a c e d i t t h a t t h e y m u s t p r o v id e u s w i t h th e n e c e s s a r y a d v is e . n d a d v is e u s i f – i f i n d e e d i t i s n o t c o r r e c t o r w e – w h a t e ls e t h a t w e n e e d e d t o d o . S o i n a d d i t io n t o t h a t I h a d a ls o p l a c e d i t t h a t t h e y 20 m u s t p r o v id e u s w i th t h e n e c e s s a r y a d v is e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w if y o u g o to p a g e 1 3 2 8 a n d 1 3 2 9 o f the same bundle. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u – y e s – y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e s t a te la w a d v is o r s . Page 60 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h is is w h a t t h e y s a y t o y o u o n t h e 2 6 J u n e . Yo u h a d w r i t t e n t o th e m o n th e 2 5 J u n e . T h i s i s w h a t t h e y s a y t o y o u o n th e 2 6 J u n e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: “ T h e s i g n e d p a r t n e r s h i p a g r e e m e n t d o e s n o t e x p l a i n s u ffi c i e n t ly th e in t e r - r e l a ti o n s h i p o f th e p a r ti e s . Is E s t i n a t h e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r o r p r o j e c t m a n a g e r ? T h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th Z a n a is a ls o n o t c le a r. ” 10 N o w t h e c o n t e x t o f c o u r s e is t h e 5 J u n e a g r e e m e n t w e h a d s t a r t e d d e a li n g w it h i t la s t w e e k a n d t h e fa c t t h a t Z a n a w a s g o i n g t o b e th e v e h ic l e t h a t w o u l d h o l d t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s s h a r e s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? W h y w o u ld y o u n o t a c c e p t o r m a y b e y o u d id th a t t h i s w a s a f a i r c r i ti c is m o f t h a t a g r e e m e n t? I f y o u d i d p l e a s e ju s t s a y s o . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a t h a n k y o u C h a ir. t h e a d v i c e f r o m t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r. We did accept Hence there was a second a g r e e m e n t th a t t h e y d r a f t e d fo r u s a n d w e s i g n e d t h e s e c o n d 20 agreement. S o w e a c c e p te d th is a d v i c e t h a t w a s g iv e n t o u s . A f te r t h e y h a d r a i s e d th is l e tt e r w e a c t u a ll y a r r a n g e d a m e e t in g b e t w e e n u s and them. W e w e n t a n d w e s a t d o w n tr y in g t o e x p la in e v e r y t h in g i n d e t a i ls w h a t w e h a v e d o n e f r o m o u r s i d e a n d th e n t h e y th e n a d v i s e d u s that they want to rework the agreement. s ig n e d a g a i n . Page 61 of 194 Hence it was reworked and 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e p r o j e c t c o s t in g w e a r e g o i n g t o c o m e t o s o m e t i m e t h is m o r n i n g b e c a u s e th e r e w a s a p r o p o s a l t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d fr o m E s ti n a . S o p r o j e c t c o s ti n g is – is p a r ti c u la r ly i m p o r t a n t w i t h a p r o j e c t o f t h i s n a tu r e . Is th a t c o r r e c t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r I a g r e e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: O k a y. In paragraph 5 they speak about t h e – th e v e r y la s t s e n te n c e a b o u t t h e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s f o r t h e d a ir y a n d t h e p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t t h a t w a s to b e b u i l t. S o t h e y p o in t e d th is o u t to y o u t h a t i t is i m p o r ta n t to k n o w w h a t t h o s e s p e c s a r e . 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a C h a ir b y t h is t i m e w e h a d n o t p r o v i d e d t h e m w it h a ll t h e d o c u m e n ts . T h e o n ly d o c u m e n ts th a t w a s s i tt i n g i n f r o n t o f t h e m w a s o n ly a f e w d o c u m e n t s th a t w e r e r e q u e s t e d . W e h a d t h e n p r o v id e d s u c h d o c u m e n ts a s r e q u e s t e d i n o r d e r f o r th e m t o b e a b le t o d r a f t o r t o a d v is e u s p r o p e r l y. We had not made the e n t ir e lis t o f d o c u m e n t – t h a t w e d i d a f te r w e h a d h a d a m e e ti n g s o th a t t h e n th e y h a v e a fu ll u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e – I a c c e p t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g M r T h a b e th e b u t m a y b e I s h o u l d a ls o e x p la i n th e r e a s o n t h a t I a m g o in g t h r o u g h t h e p o in ts th a t w e r e h i g h l ig h t e d . I t is b e c a u s e I a m t h e n g o i n g 20 t o g o t o t h e p r o j e c t p r o p o s a l , t h e b u s in e s s p l a n , t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y t h a t w e r e h a n d e d t o y o u a n d I a m g o i n g t o b e i n te r r o g a ti n g t h o s e d o c u m e n ts . A n d a s I i n t e r r o g a t e t h o s e d o c u m e n t s I w o u l d li k e t o b e a r – y o u t o b e a r t h e s e c o m m e n t s i n m i n d b e c a u s e t h e t h in g s t h a t h a v e b e e n h i g h l ig h te d h e r e I w o u l d e x p e c t t o h a v e t h e D e p a r t m e n t e n s u r e th a t t h e y a r e i n th e d o c u m e n ts t h e y th e n r e c e i v e d a f t e r t h i s – a f t e r t h e J u l y Page 62 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 agreement. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Are you with me? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m w it h y o u C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: O k a y. Yo u t h e n – s o o n e o f th e is s u e s t h a t w a s a ls o r a is e d b y th e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y i n v e s t ig a t o r s M r T h a b e th e is it e m n u m b e r 6 , T h a t h i g h l e v e l s t u d y t h a t y o u c o n d u c te d I tr u s t t h e r e is a c o p y o f t h a t d o c u m e n t s o m e w h e r e ? Because those N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y i n v e s t ig a t o r s s a i d t h e y w e r e n o t a b l e t o g e t a c o p y 10 fr o m y o u . D o e s t h e d o c u m e n t e x is t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a i r I c o u l d n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h a t – w h a t w e r e t h e y r e f e r r i n g t o b e c a u s e w h a t t h e y a s k e d m e i s my d e s k t o p s t u d y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I b e li e v e t h a t is h o w I w o u l d in t e r p r e t t h is a s w e ll b u t I w o u ld t h e n h a v e a s s u m e d t h a t y o u g e n e r a te d s o m e d o c u m e n t a ti o n fr o m t h a t. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Please correct us if we are wrong in what w e a r e a s s u m in g . 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. B u t – b u t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e m t h a t is n o t w h a t t h e y w a n te d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A c c o r d i n g t o – n o w I h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t t w o d i ffe r e n t s e ts o f p e o p l e w h o w a n te d d o c u m e n t s . N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y in v e s t i g a t o r s a n d o f c o u r s e t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r s h e r e w h o w e r e p o i n t i n g o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 6 th a t y o u d id n o t a tt a c h t h is h i g h le v e l s tu d y Page 63 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 that you conducted. Yo u d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r s w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t . Let us start there because that is the le t t e r w e a r e lo o k i n g a t . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Is t h i s w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e s t u d y th a t w e h a d r e fe r r e d t o w e s p o k e a b o u t i t w a s th e a n a ly s is th a t w e d i d . If you remember C h a ir w e h a d d o n e a n a ly s is o f d i ff e r e n t c o u n tr i e s i n te r ms o f m i lk p r o d u c t io n . N o w th a t is w h a t is b e in g r e f e r r e d t o . I a m n o t s u r e w h a t – 10 w h a t d o c u m e n t w e r e t h e y a c t u a ll y l o o k i n g a t b e c a u s e th a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w h e n I r e f e r r e d t o th a t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u … MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B u t a p p a r e n tl y th e y d id n o t a c c e p t t h a t to b e t h e d o c u m e n t I w a s ta lk in g a b o u t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o i f y o u j u s t v e r y b r ie f ly g o to p a g e 1 3 3 1 t h a t i s y o u r le t t e r to t h e s t a t e l a w a d v i s o r s . 1 3 3 1 . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And I have just counted the beginning of e a c h p a r a g r a p h a n d I t h i n k i t is a t p a r a g r a p h 7 w h ic h s t a r ts a c o p y o f 20 t h e r e s u l ts o f t h e d e t a i l e d s tu d y m e n t io n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 .2 a r e y o u there? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m t h e r e C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Aha. Of the e x e c u t iv e memorandum. Then you say: “ W e a r e a tt a c h in g a h i g h l e v e l s t u d y t h a t w a s Page 64 of 194 c o u n c il 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 conducted. T h e d e t a i le d s t u d y w i ll b e p r o v id e d a s s o o n a s i t is r e a d y s u b j e c t to th e r e le a s e o f t h e in it i a l fu n d s . ” S o j u s t e x p la i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h to th e C h a i r ma n b e c a u s e y o u a p p e a r to b e t a lk i n g a b o u t t w o d i ff e r e n t d o c u m e n t s a n d li n k i n g t h e s e c o n d o n e t o t h e r e l e a s e o f f u n d s . P le a s e h e l p u s u n d e r s t a n d t h a t p a r a g r a p h . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . T h e d e t a il e d s t u d y C h a ir is t h e d e t a i l e d f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y a n d b u s i n e s s p l a n w h ic h th e n r e q u i r e d m o n e y for us to be able to do so. 10 T h is is w h a t t h a t p a r a g r a p h – w e w e r e a tt a c h in g th e i n i t ia l s t u d y a n d w e a r e s a y i n g t h e d e t a il e d s t u d y w i ll b e p r o v i d e d a s s o o n a s i t is m a d e – b e c a u s e t h a t w a s s ti ll t o b e d o n e . CHAIRPERSON: I s t h e r e f – i s th e f ir s t s tu d y r e f e r r e d to i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h w h a t y o u h a v e c a l le d d e s k to p s t u d y ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Research. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t it r e f e r s t o . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s w h i c h w e … C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e s e c o n d o n e w a s s t il l t o fo ll o w ? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: It had not been done yet? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It h a d n o t b e e n d o n e y e t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o w t h is – t h is i s t h e v e r y s a m e d o c u m e n t w e a r e g iv i n g t o t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r s w h ic h w e h a d Page 65 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 p r o v i d e d t o N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y w h ic h t h e y s a y th e y h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : In fa c t if t h a t is y o u r e x p l a n a t io n th e n w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t th e h i g h l e v e l s t u d y w h ic h w a s t h e d e s k t o p s t u d y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h ic h y o u d i d n o t f u r n is h to t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r s . A m I c o r r e c t ? B e c a u s e th e y s a y i t is n o t a t t a c h e d . I a m ju s t r e a d in g p a r a g r a p h 6 . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O f t h e ir l e tt e r ? 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Of 1328 I am back at 1328. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y I s e e i t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . S o y o u d i d n o t a t t a c h th a t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: h a d r e fe r r e d to i t a s a t ta c h e d . It could not have been attached. I M a y b e t h e n i t w a s n o t a tt a c h e d b u t I s t a n d t o b e l i e v e t h a t w e h a d th e n l a t e r p r o v id e d to t h e m . Because it w a s t h e r e . O t h e r w is e I w o u l d n o t h a v e s a i d a t t a c h e d . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n th e s e c o n d d o c u m e n t w a s t h e m o r e d e t a i l e d d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t I s a i d w e a r e g o i n g t o b e d e a li n g w it h a li t tl e l a te r. 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o w I w i ll r e a d ily s a y t h a t th is e v i d e n c e y o u a r e g iv in g n o w is a li g n e d to w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g e a r li e r w h e n w e w e r e d is c u s s i n g w h a t t h e R 3 0 m i lli o n w a s f o r. B e c a u s e t h e R 3 0 m il li o n h a d n o t b e e n p a id y e t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 66 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h e n t h e s e l e tt e r s w e r e w r i t te n . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e R 3 0 m i lli o n w a s o n ly p a id o n t h e 9 July 2012? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o w h a t y o u w e r e s a y in g h e r e w a s y o u need that money so that those… M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A c ti v i t ie s c a n … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E x e r c is e s c a n b e c o n d u c t e d . 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d y o u w e r e a ls o s a y i n g i n y o u r l e t t e r t h a t y o u h a d n o w c o m m i t t e d y o u r d e p a r t m e n t to t h e s e c o n tr a c t u a l o b li g a ti o n s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And you stood to get into a bit of trouble if y o u d i d n o t a t l e a s t s ta r t g iv in g t h e m o n e y t h a t y o u h a d u n d e r t a k e n to g iv e f o r t h is fir s t p h a s e o f w o r k . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : J a n o I a m u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t a n d th a t is 20 w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d n o w i n w h a t y o u s a id a l i tt l e e a r li e r. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u t h e n – y o u th e n c o m e to a n a r r a n g e m e n t w i t h t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r s b u t c a n I a ls o p o in t y o u to th e c o n c e r n s o f Tr e a s u r y b e c a u s e w e a r e r e a ll y n o w d e a l i n g w it h y o u r a s s e s s m e n t o f r i s k a s y o u r c o l le a g u e s w e r e p o in t in g t h e s e f a c t o r s o u t Page 67 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t o y o u . T h is is r e a l ly t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r o f w h a t w e a r e d e a l i n g w i th . H o w y o u a s s e s s e d t h e r is k i n h e r e n t i n d e a li n g w i th E s ti n a a n d y o u m i ti g a te d th a t r i s k . Th a t i s t h e b r o a d y o u k n o w u n d e r ly in g s u b j e c t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n y o u p l e a s e th e n s a m e f il e g o t o p a g e 1 3 6 4 . H a v e y o u lo c a t e d i t? I t is a c t u a ll y a n e m a il . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a t w a s w r i t te n b y M r M o s e s w h o w a s i n t h e P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y. 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t is a r a th e r i m p o r t a n t e m a i l Mr Th a b e t h e . A g a i n w i t h i n t h a t c o n t e x t o f w h a t w a s c o n c e r n i n g y o u r c o l le a g u e s . C a n y o u p le a s e r e a d t h is in t o th e r e c o r d ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e e n t ir e e m a il ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S t a r t in g w i t h t h e d a t e p l e a s e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t is a r e p o r t w i t h t h e h e a d in g Vr e d e D a ir y P r o d u c t . I t a k e i t i t c a m e fr o m I t u m e l e n g M o s e s o n t h e 1 9 J u n e 2 0 1 2 a t 3 7 m i n u te s p a s t 4 i n t h e a f te r n o o n t o S e is o M o h a i. I t w a s s e n t t o , c o p i e d t o H u m p h r e y L it e b e K g o m o n g w e . I t s a y s : 20 “Dear MEC. N o t w i t h s t a n d i n g th e E X C O R e s o l u t i o n a n d d e c is i o n o f th e Tr e a s u r y c o m m i t te e t h i s m o r n i n g . I h a v e b e e n th i n k i n g a b o u t th e w id e r i m p l ic a t io n s o f these r e s o l u ti o n s . Based on the p r e l i mi n a r y p r o n o u n c e m e n t o f t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r s t h a t th e c o n tr a c t is il le g a l th e i m m e d ia t e q u e s ti o n is t h a t – i s Page 68 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 what to do then. D o w e fir s t c o r r e c t th e i ll e g a li t ie s o f t h e c o n t r a c t b e f o r e d is b u r s i n g a n y f u n d s o r d o w e d is b u r s e fu n d s a n d c o r r e c t t h e il le g a l i ti e s l a t e r ? A s m a t t e r s s ta n d t h e P r o v i n c e h a s o p t e d f o r t h e l a t t e r w h ic h b r in g s m e to th e s e c o n d is s u e . S e c o n d ly th e R 3 0 m il li o n w h ic h m u s t b e m a d e a v a il a b l e a s i n y e s t e r d a y i s b a s e d o n a n i ll e g a l c o n t r a c t . Wouldn’t t h is p a y m e n t b e a n a c c e p t a n c e a n d e n d o r s e m e n t o f a n i ll e g a l c o n t r a c t? 10 My thinking is that this down p a y m e n t w i ll b i n d g o v e r n m e n t t o w h a t is e s s e n ti a l ly a n i ll e g a l c o n tr a c t. T h e fa c t th a t Tr e a s u r y w o u l d have approved the down payments makes it an a c c e s s o r y t o t h e c r i m e o f f i n a n c i a l m is c o n d u c t. T h ir d ly t h e c o n tr a c t p la c e s a l l th e o b l i g a t io n s o n g o v e r n m e n t t o m a k e fu n d i n g a v a il a b l e to t h e b a l a n c e o f th e p r o j e c t . R 3 4 2 m i l li o n . I n t h e e v e n t th e P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t i s n o t a b l e t o fi n d a l t e r n a t iv e s o u r c e s a s p e r Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e R e s o l u ti o n i t w il l s t il l b e h e l d a c c o u n ta b l e . 20 In this way entering into t h is c o n t r a c t c o m m i ts fu t u r e r e s o u r c e s fo r w h ic h n o p r o v i s i o n s h a s b e e n m a d e i n t h e b u d g e t o v e r th e M T F. Combined these is s u e s do a p p ly n o n c o m p li a n c e t o S e c t i o n 1 0 0 ( 1 ) a a n d m a y w o r s e n t h e s i tu a ti o n f o r th e Pr o v in c e . I t d o e s a p p e a r to m e t h a t p e r h a p s t h e c o n t r a c t w o u l d b e l e g a lis e d f ir s t a n d Page 69 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 r e v is e d i n o r d e r t o p l u g a ll t h e g a p s p r i o r t o e v e n tr a n s fe r r e d o n e c e n t t o th e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r. Then w e w ill d r a w c o m f o r t fr o m k n o w i n g t h a t t h i s is a le g a l e x e r c is e . Id e a l ly n o c o n tr a c t w o u l d b e e n te r e d i n t o u n t il t h e r e is c e r t a i n ty r e g a r d i n g t h e a v a il a b il i ty o f funds. O n p a p e r t h e p r o j e c t l o o k s v e r y in t e r e s ti n g a n d g o o d fo r th e d e v e l o p m e n t a n d t h e r e p o s i ti o n i n g o f t h e P r o v i n c e b u t m y f e a r is t h a t it is n o t e x e c u t iv e – th a t if – i f n o t e x e c u ti v e – l e t m e r e p e a t. B u t m y 10 f e a r i s t h a t i f n o t e x e c u t iv e c o r r e c t ly i t w o u l d c o m p r o m is e a n d e m b a r r a s s g o v e r n m e n t in t h e r u l i n g p a r t y. N o w t h a t w e h a v e a s e n s e o f h o w m u c h it w il l c o s t u s I th in k t h e r e d r a f ti n g o f t h e c o n tr a c t, t h e id e n t i fic a t io n o f p o s s i b le f u n d i n g s o u r c e s in c l u d i n g p o s s i b le budget r e p r i o r i t is a ti o n could happen s i m u l t a n e o u s ly. T h is w o u l d th e n b e c o n c lu d e d w i t h a s ig n in g o f th e a g r e e m e n t . I thought I should just t e a s e t h e s e is s u e s w i t h y o u in m y c a p a c i t y a s Ac t in g C E O . R e g a r d s IJ . ” 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s th a n k y o u . S o b e t w e e n t h e s t a t e l a w a d v is o r s a n d t h e P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y t h e y e x p r e s s e d c o n c e r n s ? Yo u r e v i d e n c e is y o u t o o k th o s e c o n c e r n s t o h e a r t a n d y o u h a d a n e w agreement drafted. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I t h in k t h is m ig h t b e t h e ti m e f o r u s t o t a k e t h e te a Page 70 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 b r e a k b e c a u s e w e s t a r te d e a r l i e r th a n n o r m a l . I t i s q u a r t e r t o e l e v e n . W e w i ll r e s u m e a t e le v e n o ’c lo c k . W e a d j o u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s p r o c e e d . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . M r T h a b e t h e I n o w w a n t to l o o k a t th a t J u l y a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e h a v e n o w m o v e d t o w a r d s because we have dealt with the June agreement. 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u w i ll fi n d it o n p a g e 6 w h ic h w o u ld p u t it in R e f e r e n c e B u n d le A . N o w th e fir s t t h i n g I w o u ld lik e to u n d e r s t a n d because I know 5 June agreement made a - accommodated the b e n e fic i a r i e s t h r o u g h Z a y n a . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W i th t h is o n e h o w w e r e th e b e n e fi c i a r i e s a c c o m m o d a t e d w i t h th is 5 J u ly 2 0 1 2 a g r e e m e n t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Thank you C h a ir. My - my u n d e r s t a n d in g o f th e s e c o n d a g r e e m e n t w a s - w a s t h e a d v i c e t h a t w e 20 n e e d t o d o a n d c o m p l e te t h e p r o j e c t . T h e r e a f t e r tr a n s f e r th e p r o j e c t t o t h e b e n e fi c i a r i e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o w d i d y o u i n t e r r o g a t e t h a t a d v i c e th a t y o u w e r e g iv e n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D id y o u … ? Page 71 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Chair … ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Huh-uh. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h is w a s a s p e r t h e a d v ic e o f b o t h t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s a n d Tr e a s u r y b e c a u s e th e y e m p h a s i s e d t h a t w e n e e d t o - w e n e e d t o r e v is e t h e o r i g in a l a g r e e m e n t a n d - a n d t h e r e v is e t h a t w a s d o n e th e n t h is - th is a g r e e m e n t c a m e f o r th . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e l l c a n y o u th e n e x p l a i n to m e w h a t t h e r o l e o f t h e i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t w o u l d h a v e b e e n b e c a u s e o n t h e g e n e r ic f o r m u l a y o u - y o u s a y y o u u s e d t h e i m p le m e n t in g a g e n t w o u ld b e 10 h o l d i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e f a r m e r. Yo u k n o w t h a t i s t h e g e n e r i c s y s t e m you have explained to us. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o . T h e - t h e i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n t w i ll b e - w il l b e i m p l e m e n t in g t h e p r o j e c t o n b e h a lf o f th e f a r m e r s . N o w m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s th a t o n c e t h a t h a s b e e n c o m p l e te d th e n w e - w e t h e n m o v e t h e e n t ir e p r o j e c t i n to th e s tr u c tu r e o f th e - o f t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t y o u s e e t h e - t h e d i ff ic u l ty w i th th a t f o r m e c e r t a i n l y M r Th a b e t h e i s w e k n o w t h is is a t h r e e y e a r p r o j e c t . A m I c o r r e c t? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e k n o w t h a t w h e n y o u w e n t t o In d i a y o u lo o k e d a t a s y s t e m t h a t m a d e s u r e t h a t o r d i n a r y f a r m e r s w o u ld b e n e f i t. That is what you found when you looked at the system in India. Am I r ig h t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 72 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H e r e y o u a r e s a y in g t h a t o r d i n a r y f a r m e r s c a n n o t b e n e f i t a t a l l u n ti l t h e e n tir e p r o j e c t h a s b e e n c o m p le t e d . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir I - I w a s o f t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g e a r l ie r o n t h a t i t w a s v e r y k e y fo r m e t o - to li s t e n t o a d v i c e a n d I d i d t a k e t h e a d v ic e a n d - b e c a u s e I h a d a n u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e - t h e fir s t a g r e e m e n t a s - a s i t w a s w r i t te n to m e b y th e - t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s . I t w o u l d n o t b e t h e c o r r e c t o n e . I t h o u g h t i t w a s t h e c o r r e c t one. T h a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t y o u b r i n g in th e b e n e f ic i a r ie s 10 fr o m th e b e g i n n i n g b u t t h e s e c o n d o n e d id n o t b r i n g t h e m o n b o a r d . I n - in d u r i n g t h e c o n s t r u c t i o n p h a s e . T h e i n t e n t io n w a s t h a t o n c e w e h a v e t h e - t h e p r o j e c t th e n w e w o u l d b e a b l e t o s a y n o w i t i s c o m p l e te . T h i s is y o u r p r o je c t. I t is o p e r a t io n a l a n d w e t h e n d o a ls o t h e c a p a c i ty b u il d in g a n d tr a i n i n g in a n tic ip a ti o n o f t h e m t a k i n g o v e r t h e p r o j e c t t h e e v e n t u a l - t h a t w a s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h ic h I d id n o t d i s a g r e e w i th . I t w a s s ti ll fi n e w i t h m e . It - i t d i d n o t m a t te r a t w h ic h s t a g e d o w e b r i n g t h e m i n a s l o n g a s w e k n o w t h a t t h is p r o j e c t b e l o n g s t o them. W h e t h e r w e s ta r t w it h t h e m o r w e g iv e i t t o t h e m w h e n i t h a s b e e n c o m p l e t e d . It w a s s t ill f in e w i t h m e . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: M y q u e s t io n w a s s i m p l y w h a t y o u d id t o in t e r r o g a t e t h e a d v ic e t h a t y o u w e r e g iv e n b e c a u s e y o u a r e t h e p e r s o n w h o w e n t to I n d i a . Yo u u n d e r s t o o d t h e I n d i a n m o d e l . T h e P a r a s m o d e l I s h o u l d r e a l ly c a ll i t a n d y o u k n e w t h a t t h a t w a s i d e a l . Th is is a d e c is i o n y o u ta k e . T h a t w a s i d e a l fo r S o u t h A f r i c a . S o I h e a r y o u o n t h e i ll e g a li t ie s . I a m s i m p ly a s k i n g h o w y o u Page 73 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 in t e r r o g a t e d t h e a d v i c e th a t s a i d w a i t f o r t h r e e y e a r s b e f o r e t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s h a v e a n y b e n e fi t a t a l l . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I - I u n d e r - I u n d e r s t o o d it C h a ir b e c a u s e w e d id i n t e r r o g a t e - w e d id e x c h a n g e . W e h a d m e e ti n g s w i th t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s a n d w e s p o k e a b o u t i t a n d I a c c e p t e d t h e a d v ic e t h a t i f - i f y o u - i f y o u g i v e i t t o t h e b e n e fi c ia r i e s i n t h e b e g i n n i n g y o u a t - a t s t a g e s y o u m a y n o t e v e n g e t t o t h e e n d o f th e p r o j e c t b e c a u s e t h e y m a y e v e n d e c i d e t o d is p o s e t h e p r o je c t b e c a u s e i t n o w t h e ir s . S o t h e y s a id m a k e s u r e th a t t h e p r o je c t b e c o m e s o p e r a t io n a l 10 a n d t h e n y o u t h e n g iv e i t to t h e m o n c e - w h i ls t i t i s a lr e a d y r u n n i n g . S o I a c c e p te d t h a t a d v i c e a n d - a n d w e - w e - th a t is w h y w e s i g n e d t h e second agreement. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u s e e t h e r e a s o n I a s k th e s e q u e s ti o n s M r T h a b e t h e i s b e c a u s e w h e n y o u m a d e t h e p r e s e n ta t io n t o Ex c o y o u p r e s e n t e d a m o d e l t h a t s a i d b e n e fi c i a r i e s w o u l d b e i n v o l v e d . They w o u ld g e t fiv e c o w s e a c h . T h e r e w o u l d b e m i lk i n g c e n t r e s . S o f r o m a s I u n d e r s to o d t h a t m e m o r a n d u m a n d w e c a n g o t o i t y o u r i d e a w a s t h a t t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s w o u ld o n e w a y o r t h e o t h e r b e i n v o l v e d fr o m in c e p ti o n . 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir, w e - w e d id d is c u s s th a t . I t h i n k i t w a s o n T h u r s d a y. Th a t t h e i s s u e o f t h e m il k i n g c e n tr e s a n d t h e c o w s w a s g o i n g f o l lo w a f te r w e h a v e p u t t h e s e p r o j e c ts in t o o p e r a t io n . W e - w e d i d d is c u s s t h a t . agreement. S o t h a t p a r t w e c o u l d s til l d o w i th t h is I t - t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g t h a t w a s s to p p i n g u s t o s a y h a n d o v e r th e p r o j e c t . Page 74 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 I t b e c o m e s o p e r a ti o n a l a n d th e n w e m o v e t o t h e f a r m s - o f t h e f a r m s w e r e w e a ll o c a t e t h e m th e c a t tl e . W e a s s is t th e m w it h th e ir o w n f a r ms n o w. S o t h a t t h e y a r e a b l e t o s u p p l y t h e ir m i lk . So that w o u ld s t il l b e a p p l ic a b l e i n t h is a g r e e m e n t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t s o t o o . E s p e c i a l ly a s y o u e x p la i n i t n o w t h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e p e o p le w h o w e r e o ffs it e n o t a t Vr e d e D a i r y Fa r m . T h is is w h a t y o u a r e e x p l a i n in g . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 Who would have these cows and then b r i n g t h e ir c o w s i n e i th e r t o t h e d a ir y - Vr e d e - o r y o u m i g h t h a v e s e t u p o th e r m i lk i n g c e n tr e s c l o s e r to w h e r e t h e y l iv e d . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o w Mr T h a b e t h e w h a t s to p p e d y o u fr o m i m p l e m e n ti n g t h a t i d e a a n d l e t u s t a k e Q u a q u a a s a q u i c k e x a m p l e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e t o l d u s t h e y a lr e a d y h a d t h e s e fa r ms w h e r e t h e y d a ir y f a r m s - w h e r e t h e y h a d f a r m e r s . W h a t s t o p p e d y o u fr o m i m p l e m e n ti n g t h a t i d e a a n d a t l e a s t s a y i n g t o b e n e f ic i a r ie s th is t h i n g is yours? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r t h a t w a s o u r i n te n ti o n . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Huh-uh. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: e v e n t u a l ly a c h i e v e . because you - you Th a t is - th a t is w h a t w e w a n t e d t o U n f o r tu n a te ly w e c o u l d n o t g e t t o th a t l e v e l w i ll remember C h a ir i m p l e m e n ta t io n t h a t is w h e r e w e h a d p r o b l e m s . t h e r e b u t t h a t w a s w h a t w e i n te n d e d t o d o . Page 75 of 194 in th e fir s t year of So we could not get 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Because you see what we have ended up w i t h n o w i s a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e t o d a t e th e b e n e fic i a r i e s h a v e n o t b e e n in v o lv e d in t h a t p r o j e c t a n d I k n o w th a t is n o t w h a t y o u h a d i n t e n d e d . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C a n I a s k y o u t h is q u e s t io n ? I have u n d e r s t o o d t h a t l e g a l r e s o u r c e s a r e i n w i t h th e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s i n t h e Pr e m i e r ’s O ff ic e a n d I h a v e u n d e r s to o d t h a t th o s e a r e th e p e o p l e y o u h a v e b e e n t a l k i n g t o . I s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o w n o r m a l ly w h e r e y o u w a n t t o g e t t o r e fi n e a n i d e a y o u w o u ld g o t o t h e S t a t e A t to r n e y b y w a y o f e x a m p l e a n d g e t a s e c o n d o p in i o n . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: J u s t t o s e e if t h e r e w a s a n o th e r w a y o f m e e ti n g y o u r o b j e c ti v e s b u t s t a y i n g w i th i n t h e fr a m e w o r k o f th e l a w w h ic h is w h a t th e l a w y e r s w e r e tr y i n g to h e l p y o u w i th . D i d y o u tr y doing that? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o r m a l l y C h a ir i t w il l b e t h e - th e S t a te L a w A d v i s o r s th a t r e fe r s y o u to t h e S t a te A t t o r n e y s . Yo u d o n o t 20 n e c e s s a r i ly g o t h e r e o n y o u r o w n . T h e y - y o u g o t o th e m a n d t h e n th e y r e fe r y o u t o t h e S t a t e L a w A t to r n e y s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: But let us move on because what I am u n d e r s t a n d in g is you to say you s i m p ly took th a t a d v ic e and i m p l e m e n te d th e p r o j e c t i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h y o u h a d b e e n a d v is e d . T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ? Page 76 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n w e g o t o t h e a g r e e m e n t i t s e l f? I a m o n p a g e 7 o f th a t a g r e e m e n t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d I a m i n C la u s e 2 . C l a u s e 2 . 1 is s e l f - e x p la n a to r y. I j u s t w a n t t o p o i n t o u t t o y o u C l a u s e 2 p o i n t … C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a i d y o u a t p a g e 7 . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a g e 7 C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: When you said that I was at page 6. 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Oh. Page … CHAIRPERSON: And I have got Clause 6. Now you say page 7 but y o u t a lk a b o u t C l a u s e 2 . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a g e 6 is th e c o v e r p a g e o f th e a g r e e m e n t C h a ir m a n . W e a r e l o o k i n g a t th e a g r e e m e n t o f J u l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e I h a v e p a g e 6 is n o t a c o v e r p a g e . L e t u s g o b a c k to m a k i n g s u r e t h a t w e a r e o n - w e h a v e t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It is … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d o c u m e n t I h a v e s t a r ts a t … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e A C h a ir m a n . I s t h a t A ? 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t is A . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - o k a y. N o w I u n d e r s t a n d t h e - th e c o n f u s i o n a n d m a y b e I a m r e s p o n s i b le fo r th e c o n f u s i o n . T h e p a g e 6 th a t I w a s t a lk in g a b o u t w h e r e I w a s - o n w h ic h I w a s h e r e is a p a g e 6 o f t h e agreement … Page 77 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Oh. CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u m e a n t - y o u m a y h a v e s a i d p a g e 7 o f th e a g r e e m e n t b u t y o u m e a n t p a g e 7 o f th e - p a g i n a t e d p a g e 7 o f t h e w h o l e bundle. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o r r e c t , c o r r e c t C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i s p a g e 2 o f t h e a g r e e m e n t ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . A r e y o u th e r e a ls o M r T h a b e t h e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I a m t h e r e . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o w e a r e o n p a g i n a te d p a g e 7 to p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r a n d I w a s i m p ly p o i n ti n g o u t t h a t C l a u s e 2 . 2 it h a s b e e n in c l u d e d i n th is a g r e e m e n t a n d y o u k n o w w e h a d t h e d e b a t e l a s t w e e k a b o u t w h e t h e r t h is p a r ti c u la r M e m o r a n d u m o f U n d e r s ta n d i n g h a s a n y s ig n if ic a n c e a t a l l t o w h a t y o u w e r e tr y i n g t o d o . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I r e a lly j u s t p o i n t i t o u t t o y o u . T h e n w e g o t o C l a u s e 2 .3 a n d y o u s a y : “ T h e d e p a r t m e n t m e t w i th P a r a s D a ir y t h e l a r g e s t 20 p r i v a t e m ilk p r o d u c e r i n I n d i a . ” Again we covered t h is b r ie f ly la s t week. I shared D a v i d M a r e e t h a t h e d id n o t b e li e v e th a t P a r a s w a s t h e l a r g e s t p r iv a t e m il k p r o d u c e r i n I n d i a . Yo u c o n t in u e d t o d i s a g r e e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I d is a g r e e C h a ir. P a r a s is n o t th e la r g e s t m ilk p r o d u c e r b u t is t h e la r g e s t p r i v a t e . S o t h e r e i s a d i ff e r e n c e Page 78 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 b e t w e e n th e t w o . I t is th e la r g e s t p r iv a t e m il k p r o d u c e r i n I n d i a . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s I s e e t h a t . T h a t is w h a t is w r it t e n h e r e a s w e ll . T h e l a r g e s t p r iv a t e m il k p r o d u c e r i n In d i a . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s . Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I - I do n o t a g r e e w i t h - w i t h - i f h e s a y s i t is n o t t h e la r g e s t m i lk p r o d u c e r in I n d ia I a g r e e w i th h i m b u t t h is s t a te m e n t i s s ti ll c o r r e c t t o s a y i t i s th e la r g e s t p r iv a t e m i lk p r o d u c e r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h e r e a s o n y o u w e n t to a p r iv a te m i lk p r o d u c e r w a s b e c a u s e y o u w e r e lo o k in g f o r a s tr a te g ic p a r t n e r w h o h a d 10 fi n a n c e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 2.4: “ E s ti n a i s th e c o u n t e r p a r t o f P a r a s D a ir y in S o u t h A fr ic a a n d i s t h e r e fo r e t h e s o l e p r o v i d e r w h o c a n e x e c u te t h e p r o j e c t . ” N o w w e h a v e d e b a t e d t h i s b r i e fly la s t w e e k … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d y o u - I j u s t w a n t t o c o n f ir m t h a t y o u a c c e p t t h a t Es t in a w h e n i t w a s s e t u p i n 2 0 0 8 w a s a m a n a g e m e n t /I T 20 c o m p a n y. I t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w it h a g r i c u l t u r e o r d a ir y. D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t o r d o w e h a v e t o g o b a c k t o t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n I p o i n t e d y o u t o la s t w e e k ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir, I - I d i d n o t a r g u e th e r e s e a r c h t h a t h a d b e e n d o n e o f w h a t E s ti n a w a s b e f o r e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e p o i n t is i n J u ly w h e n t h is a g r e e m e n t Page 79 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 w a s s i g n e d E s ti n a w a s n o t - i t s m a i n b u s in e s s w a s n o t i n t h e fi e ld o f a g r ic u lt u r e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. W e - w e h a v e d i s c u s s e d i t and … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u d i d n o t d is p u te i t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . I d i d n o t d is p u te . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u - y o u s a i d t h a t y o u h a d n o t s e e n th e n e e d to c h e c k a b o u t t h a t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja, because I had said my - my main concern was - was … CHAIRPERSON: Paras? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : P a r a s , y e s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n w e g o a c r o s s th e p a g e t o p a g e 8 a n d w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t E s t i n a b e in g w il li n g a n d a b l e t o e x e c u t e t h e p r o j e c t . C a n I a s k y o u t h is q u e s ti o n i n r e l a ti o n t h a t ? W h o b e c a m e th e P r o je c t M a n a g e r a t Vr e d e D i a r y P r o j e c t? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r th e - th e P r o j e c t M a n a g e r w a s a - a g e n tl e m a n c a ll e d Pr a s a d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s . N o w w h e r e y o u a b l e a s th e d e p a r t m e n t t o c h e c k o n w h e t h e r h e k n e w a n y t h in g a t a ll a b o u t d a ir y f a r m in g ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir w e - w e d i d n o t t a k e - c h e c k in Page 80 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 - t h e in d iv i d u a ls t h a t w e r e - w e r e b r o u g h t o n s i t e . T h e - th e - w h a t I h a d a s k e d a n d w h a t I w a s i n f o r m e d th a t t h e - t h e g e n t l e m a n th a t w a s b r o u g h t i n t h e r e d id w o r k f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e b e fo r e in I n d ia . S o m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s th e n if h e h a d w o r k e d f o r t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e h e w o u l d t h e n h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e d a ir y p r o j e c ts . T h a t - t h a t is w h a t I h a d h e a r d b u t I d i d n o t c h e c k e a c h in d i v i d u a l w h i c h w a s b r o u g h t in t h e r e o n - o n d e t a ils . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 No. T h i s w a s a s i g n i fic a n t a p p o i n t m e n t b e c a u s e t h is is t h e p e r s o n w h o w o u l d b e r u n n in g t h e d a ir y fa r m . T h is is w h y I s p e c i f ic a l ly g o to t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s in c h a r g e o f a ll o p e r a ti o n s . Yo u r - y o u a r e c o n f ir m i n g t h a t y o u d i d n o t c h e c k o n w h e t h e r h e w a s q u a li f ie d to r u n a d a ir y f a r m ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o w e d i d n o t c h e c k C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: H e o b v i o u s l y w a s n o t a p p o in t e d b y yourselves? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H e w a s a p p o i n te d b y Es t in a ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 H e - h e w a s b r o u g h t t o u s b y Es t in a C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: He was not an employee of Paras? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I a m n o t a w a r e C h a ir. I - I do not k n o w. A ll I k n e w th a t th e g u y c a m e fr o m I n d i a a n d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s t h a t i f h e c o m e s fr o m I n d i a h e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n th e n r e c o m m e n d e d b y P a r a s t o c o m e h e r e a n d - a n d a s s i s t w it h t h e p r o j e c t . Page 81 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Let us - let us continue. Mr Basson is a b u s i n e s s m a n i n Vr e d e . H e d i d q u i t e a b i t o f w o r k f o r th e d a i r y f a r m . H e w a s h e r e t o p r e s e n t h is e v i d e n c e . I n h is e v id e n c e h e s a i d a n d I a m ju s t p a r a p h r a s i n g h i s e v id e n c e . H e s a i d t h a t h e w a s e n g a g e d a n u m b e r o f ti m e s to d o v a r ie s t h i n g s b e c a u s e h e h a s e q u i p m e n t - e a r t h m o v in g e q u ip m e n t e t c e t e r a . Fi r s t t h i n g h e s a y s is th a t h e a s s i s t e d M r P r a s a d i n r e s o lv i n g t h e fe e d t h a t t h e c a t t le n e e d e d - t h e c o w s n e e d e d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e d y i n g a n d t h e y w e r e d y i n g e s s e n t i a l ly fr o m m a l n u tr i ti o n . S o i n h is v i e w 10 w h o - h e h a s a ls o b e e n a f a r m e r - i n h is v i e w M r P r a s a d h a d n o c l u e o n e , a b o u t h o w t o r u n a - a d a ir y f a r m . Tw o , w h a t ty p e o f fe e d n e e d e d t o b e b r o u g h t i n f o r c a t t le . T h r e e , w h a t to d o w i th c a t t le i n t e r m s o f m o v i n g th e m a r o u n d fr o m o n e p a s t u r e to t h e o t h e r a n d fo u r, w h e n th o s e c a t t le d i d d ie w h ic h I a m s u r e y o u k n o w a b o u t h e w a s b r o u g h t i n t o d i g t r e n c h e s t o b u r y th e m . D o y o u k n o w a n y th i n g a t a ll a b o u t t h e s e in c i d e n c e s ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. T h a n k - th a n k y o u C h a ir. I - I m a y n o t n e c e s s a r ily a g r e e w i t h th a t h e d i d n o t k n o w b e c a u s e I h a d in t e r a c te d w i t h h i m a n u m b e r o f ti m e s w h e n - w h e n I h a d v is i te d t h e 20 farms. H e i s th e o n e t h a t t o o k m e t h r o u g h t h e d e s i g n a n d t h e p l a n s what to do and where. So I - I got an understanding that he had an id e a . T h e o n ly p r o b l e m th a t I c o u ld p ic k w a s - w a s h is E n g l is h . I t w a s v e r y d i ffic u l t to u n d e r s t a n d h i m w h e n - w h e n h e s p e a k s E n g li s h . A - a lo t o f p e o p l e m a y n o t h a v e w a n te d t o in t e r a c t w i th h i m b e c a u s e Page 82 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e r e w o u l d b e v e r y li t tl e y o u p ic k a n d w h a t y o u n o t p ic k b u t h e u n d e r s t o o d th e - t h e a c t iv it i e s . I - I a t ti m e s t o a s k h i m m a n y t i m e s to e x p l a i n w h a t h e w a s a c t u a l ly s a y in g . So the d i ff ic u l ty was understanding h is E n g l is h but I understood him when he took me through the plans and if - if I u n d e r s t a n d a n d I u n d e r s t o o d h i m i t m e a n s h e h a d a n i d e a a b o u t d a ir y. O t h e r w is e I w o u l d h a v e p ic k e d h i m u p v e r y e a s y t o s a y b u t y o u h a v e n o id e a . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 Mr T h a b e t h e a r e y o u s a y in g th a t a t n o s t a g e d id y o u g o to t h e fa r m a n d f in d m a l n u tr i ti o n o r - m a ln o u r is h e d is t h e r ig h t w o r d - m a ln o u r i s h e d c a tt l e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o , n o , n o . I a m n o t s a y in g s o C h a ir. I a m r e f e r r i n g t o h is k n o w l e d g e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I am going beyond that. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h ic h is w h y I a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. The … CHAIRPERSON: o n e q u e s ti o n . 20 No, no Ms Gcabashe. H e a n s w e r e d i t. I think you - you had asked Yo u f o ll o w u p q u e s t io n c r e a te d t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t h e h a d n o t a n s w e r e d t h e - t h e e a r l i e r q u e s ti o n w h ic h h e h a d . S o I t h i n k t h e s e c o n d q u e s t io n i s i n d e p e n d e n t w h e t h e r o r n o t h e h a d v is it e d . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A b s o lu t e l y C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I have moved Page 83 of 194 on from the other 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ( in t e r v e n e s ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o b u t w h a t I a m s a y in g i s t h e w a y y o u m o v e d o n m a y h a v e c r e a te d t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t h e - y o u th o u g h t h e h a d n o t a d e q u a t e l y a n s w e r e d th e e a r l ie r q u e s ti o n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Can I repeat …? C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o m a y b e ju s t r e p e a t th e - th e l a s t q u e s t io n . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is q u e s t io n ? CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o w h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o k n o w b e c a u s e y o u 10 m e n ti o n e d v i s i ti n g t h e fa r m a n d s p e a k i n g w i t h M r Pr a s a d . So my q u e s t io n is o n th e o c c a s i o n s t h a t y o u v is it e d t h e fa r m d id y o u a t a n y s t a g e c o m e a c r o s s m a l n o u r is h e d d a ir y c o w s ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir I w a n t t o - t o p u t th e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n th e t w o b e c a u s e I - I d o n o t w a n t it t o l o o k li k e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: The cows were dying because he did not have knowledge. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is w h a t I a m - I a m d is p u t in g . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I a m n o t d is p u t in g t h a t th e c o w s d i d die. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h e y - t h e y d i d d ie a n d t h e - t h e - there were reasons for that. Page 84 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: It was not because he did not have knowledge. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . M a y b e y o u c a n i m m e d i a t e ly g o t o t h e r e a s o n s a s y o u k n o w th e m f o r th e d e a t h o f th e - o f t h e c a t tl e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C h a ir t h e - th e d i ffi c u l ty t h a t w e - w e h a d i t - i t w a s - i t w a s m a i n ly is s u e s o f fi n a n c e . T h e - th e p r o b le m s t h a t w e h a d w h e n - w h e n t h e c a t tl e w e r e - w e r e d e l iv e r e d o n t h e f a r m . I t i s - i t w a s t h e ti m e w h e n t h e m e d i a c h a l le n g e s s t a r te d w i t h 10 t h e p r o je c t a n d w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o a d v a n c e m o n e y t o t h e p r o j e c ts anymore due to a number of reasons. N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t w i t h d r e w a n d w e h a d t o p o s e p u t t in g m o n e y i n to t h e p r o j e c t . N o w w e h a d c h a l le n g e s b e c a u s e w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o g iv e m o n e y t o th e p r o je c t a n d th e c a t tl e w e r e s t a n d i n g t h e r e . T h e r e w a s n o f o o d . H e h a d t h e n e v e n t u a lly b e c a u s e w e c o u l d r e a l is e t h a t a ll t h e s e c a t tl e a r e g o i n g to d i e . W e h a d e v e n t o o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t t o c o m m i t t o s a y t o a b u s i n e s s p e r s o n p l e a s e a s s is t a n d a d v a n c e u s a n d a s s is t i n p r o v i d i n g f e e d f o r th e s e c a tt l e . S o t h a t w h e n t h e m o n e y b e c o m e s a v a il a b l e w e w i ll th e n b e 20 a b l e t o p a y y o u . N o w t h a t w a s t h e p r o b l e m . T h a t w e w e r e n o t a b l e to p r o v i d e t h e fe e d b e c a u s e w e h a d - w e w e r e h a v i n g th is b i g p r o b l e m n o w o f m a k in g m o n e y a v a i la b le o n th e g r o u n d . N o w t h a t h a s b e e n th e p r o b le m . I t h a s b e e n i n th e m e d i a b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e , t h e r e w a s n o f o o d fo r t h e m . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w t h is is v e r y i n t e r e s t in g w h a t y o u s a y. Page 85 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 W h o g a v e y o u th e r e p o r t th a t y o u h a v e j u s t g iv e n ? T h a t t h e r e w a s n o f o o d b e c a u s e th e r e w a s n o m o n e y t o b u y c a t tl e fe e d f o r t h e c a t tl e . W h e r e d i d y o u g e t th a t f r o m ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o C h a i r th a t - t h a t w a s - r e m e m b e r t h is c a m e a s a m e d i a i n q u i r y t o u s . T h e m e d i a i n q u ir y c a m e to u s a n d w e p r o v id e d t h e r e s p o n s e s t o t h e m e d i a . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No, no. CHAIRPERSON: N o , t h e a n s w e r is t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t g iv e n a s t o w h a t t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e p r o b le m w a s w h e r e d i d y o u g e t t h a t 10 in f o r m a ti o n f r o m ? T h a t is t h e q u e s ti o n . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a i r t h a t - t h a t w a s t h e - th e r e s p o n s e t h a t w e - m a y b e l e t - l e t m e c o m e i n a g a in b e c a u s e th e y h a d b e e n r e q u e s ti n g u s t o m a k e m o n e y a v a il a b le . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Es t in a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr P r a s a d ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 Th e y h a v e b e e n r e q u e s t in g u s t o m a k e m o n e y a v a il a b l e a n d w e w e r e n o t m a k in g t h e m o n e y a v a il a b l e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because we were having a challenge … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: On our side. Page 86 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 CHAIRPERSON: So the shortage of funds was something you knew as h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u s e e I a m tr y in g t o d e fi n e th e r o le o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h e r e th e i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n t h a s w h a t y o u h a v e c a ll e d a t u r n k e y o r s o m e b o d y e l s e c a ll e d a t u r n k e y p r o j e c t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 S o I w o u ld lik e t o t h i n k t h a t th e k e y li a is o n p e r s o n w o u l d b e t h e e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r. Yo u w il l c o r r e c t m e i f I am wrong. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: H o w o f te n w o u l d t h e e x - a n d t h e e x t e n s i o n o ffi c e r is a n a g r i c u l tu r is t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i s g o i n g o n w h e n h e s e e s m a l n o u r is h e d c a t tl e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H o w o f t e n w o u l d t h e e x t e n s i o n o ffic e r v i s i t 20 the farm? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : J u s t e s t i m a te . I t r e a l ly is … MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir t h e - th e p r o b l e m is n o t t h a t w e d i d n o t s e e . W e d id s e e b e c a u s e h e w o u ld h a v e a ls o c o m e a n d told us the same thing. T h e s e c a t tl e a r e m a ln o u r i s h e d . Page 87 of 194 T h a t is w h y 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 they are dying. So the fact that there was not enough food was a fact. S o i t w o u ld n o t h e l p t h e e x t e n s io n o ff ic e r c o m i n g in t h e r e a n d te ll i n g u s t h e s e c a t tl e d o n o t f o o d w h e n w e k n o w t h e y d o n o t h a v e fo o d . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a m 9 0 p e r c e n t s u r e t h a t t h e e v id e n c e o f M r B a s s o n w a s n o t th a t th e r e w a s n o m o n e y a n d I w il l q u a l i fy th a t b e c a u s e I m u s t b u t t h e fi r s t i s s u e w a s t h a t Mr P r a s a d c o u ld n o t e v e n r e c o g n is e t h a t t h e p r o b le m h e h a d h e r e w a s a p r o b l e m o f g e t t i n g f e e d b u t I v e r y q u ic k l y a ls o w a n t t o s a y t h a t in d e e d h e s p e n t h i s o w n m o n e y t o b u y t h e fe e d a n d th e n h e w a s r e i m b u r s e d i n d u e c o u r s e o n c e h e 10 s u b m i tt e d h is - h is in v o ic e . S o I d o n o t w a n t t o s a y to y o u i t is n o t t r u e t h a t th e r e w a s n o m o n e y, B a s s o n s a i d h e u s e d h is o w n m o n e y, a n d p r e s e n t e d a n i n v o ic e , he got his money back, so I have no problem there. Where I do have a li t tl e b i t o f a n i s s u e i s a s I u n d e r s t o o d h i s e v id e n c e M r Pr a s a d h a d n o c lu e a s t o w h a t h e w a s d o i n g , t h a t w a s t h e e s s e n c e o f h is e v i d e n c e , B a s s o n ’s e v id e n c e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a , t h a n k s C h a ir. I t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n P r a s a d a l o n e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a ls o t h e D e p a r t m e n t, b e c a u s e i f it w a s th e i s s u e o f n o t k n o w i n g w h e t h e r th e s e a n i m a ls a r e m a l n o u r i s h e d 20 o r n o t w e s h o u l d h a v e a l s o s e e n i t , i f t h a t w a s th e is s u e . Hence I am s a y in g t h a t w a s n o t th e is s u e w h e r e e v e r y b o d y s a w a n d k n e w t h a t w e h a d a d i ffe r e n t c h a ll e n g e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d t h is i s w h y I w e n t s tr a i g h t to t h e e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r b e c a u s e it h a s b e e n e x p l a i n e d to u s t h a t t h o s e a r e y o u r fo o t s o l d i e r s i n a s e n s e . Page 88 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s . Who go to all your projects to make sure t h a t w h a t t h e y a r e d o in g a t t h e p r o j e c ts , a t p r o j e c t l e v e l is a li g n e d t o y o u r th in k i n g . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: That is correct. Th a t is e x a c t ly w h y I w e n t to ta lk a b o u t e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r s . B u t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t e v e n i f t h e e x t e n s i o n o ff ic e r c a m e b a c k t o y o u w it h a r e p o r t t h a t th e r e a r e m a l n o u r is h e d c a tt l e y o u w o u ld n o t b e a b le t o d o a n y th in g b e c a u s e t h e m o n e y s h o u l d c o m e f r o m 10 E s ti n a , n o t fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h e p r o b l e m C h a ir t h a t w a s t h e t i m e w h e n th e m e d i a c h a ll e n g e s s ta r t e d w i th t h e p r o je c t , a n d w e w e r e a t t h a t s t a g e h a d t o p u t e v e r y th i n g o n h o ld , i n c l u d i n g d i s b u r s i n g m o n e y. N o w t h a t ’s w h e r e t h e p r o b le m c o m e s i n , n o t t h a t w e d id n o t k n o w, w e w e r e e i t h e r, m a y b e w h a t w e c o u ld h a v e d o n e w a s to g o a n d s e l l th e c a t tl e , b u t a t t h a t ti m e e v e r y t h i n g w a s p u t o n h o ld to s a y w a i t w e h a v e t o d o a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n o n t h i s , a n d y o u c a n n o t t a k e a u n i la t e r a l d e c is i o n w h e n a lr e a d y y o u h a v e b e e n t o l d t h e r e i s a n in v e s t i g a t io n , t h o s e a r e t h e c h a l le n g e s th a t I a m h a v i n g t o s a y h o w w o u ld y o u t h e n d e a l w i th i t 20 C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: In f a c t my c o l l e a g u e h a s j u s t p u ll e d o u t t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f M r B a s s o n ’s e v i d e n c e a n d I w o u l d ju s t l ik e to r e a d to y o u w h a t h e s a id , o f c o u r s e th r o u g h a n i n t e r p r e t e r, a n d th is is o n p a g e 3 1 o f 1 5 0 o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t C h a i r m a n , a n d t h e d a t e is th e 2 6 t h o f J u ly 2019. T h e C h a i r p e r s o n a s k e d t h i s q u e s ti o n : Page 89 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 “ D i d y o u e v e r a s k M r Pr a s a d o r a n y b o d y fr o m t h e Vr e d e f a r m w h y i t w a s t h a t t h e c a tt l e w e r e n o t g iv e n c a t tl e f e e d if t h e r e wasn’t enough grass and why they had to die?” T h a t ’s t h e q u e s ti o n . T h e a n s w e r o f M r B a s s o n is : “ I a s k e d h i m w h y d o y o u n o t f e e d th e c a t tl e a n d h e s a i d , b u t t h e r e ’s f o o d , t h e r e ’s g r a s s l o o k th e y a r e e a ti n g . ” T h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e n s a y s : “ A n d w h a t d i d y o u s a y in r e s p o n s e t o t h is a n s w e r ? ” Mr Basson says: 10 “ I e x p la in e d t o h i m t h a t , t h a t g r a s s y o u c a n g i v e t o a s h e e p b u t n o t t o c a tt l e , t h e y c a n n o t e a t th a t , th e n t h e y tr y t o g e t s o m e t h i n g i n b u t t h e y d o n ’ t s o I in f o r m e d h i m t h a t h e h a s to make a p la n to get feed i m m e d i a t e ly, not t o m o r r o w, i m m e d i a t e ly. ” C h a ir p e r s o n th e n s a y s : “ A n d d i d h e ta k e y o u r a d v ic e th is ti m e ? | Mr Basson: “ C o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n h e to o k th e a d v ic e b u t h e a s k e d m e i f I cannot buy feed for them because they do not have the 20 fi n a n c e s , I a ls o h a d s o m e o n my f a r m , s o t h e y r e i m b u r s e d m e e v e n t u a l ly. ” e tc e t e r a , e tc e t e r a . At page 27 of the same transcript Mr Basson d e s c r ib e s t h e c a t tl e i n t h is m a n n e r : “ W h e n I a r r iv e d o n th e f a r m t h e r i b s o f th e c a tt l e w a s a l r e a d y s h o w i n g t h a t is h o w y o u s e e c a tt l e w h ic h is v e r y s k i n n y o r Page 90 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 underfed.” Q u e s ti o n fr o m t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r : “ A n d th is w o u ld h a v e b e e n e n d o f 2 0 1 2 / e a r ly 2 0 1 3 ? ” And the answer was yes, correct. And he goes on to say: “He asked me what he can do. W h y i s th is h a p p e n in g ; b e c a u s e d e a d c a t tl e w a s ly in g a r o u n d ? D e a d c a lv e s d r i f ti n g i n t h e s t r e a m o r t h e w a t e r. T h a t is w h y I s a i d th a t th is is a n o r g y t h is . Yo u c a n s e e t h e c a t tl e l y i n g a r o u n d t h e r e . ” A n d th e n j u s t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e n a s k e d a t p a g e 2 8 , I r e a ll y a m 10 s k i p p i n g s o m e o f i t , I a m ju s t il lu s tr a t i n g t h e p o in t , s k i p p i n g s o m e o f th e e v i d e n c e . T h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e n a s k s : “ T h a t is h o w s h o r t t h e g r a s s w a s . . . ” B e c a u s e h e h a d in d ic a t e d a b o u t 1 0 t o 1 5 c m , s o t h e C h a i r a s k s t h a t is h o w s h o r t th e g r a s s w a s . c a n n o t e a t t h a t. M r B a s s o n c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n a n d c a t tl e S h e e p c a n s ti ll e a t i t s h o r te r b u t n o t c a t tl e . A n d la t e r . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y M s G c a b a s h e , i f y o u r e a d s o m u c h b y th e t i m e y o u g iv e h i m a c h a n c e t o s a y a n y t h i n g h e w il l h a v e f o r g o t t e n a lo t o f t h i n g s t h a t y o u h a v e r e a d , i t ’s m u c h b e t t e r i f y o u p ic k p o i n t b y p o in t 20 a n d p u t t o h i m s o th a t h e c a n d e a l w i t h i t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a i r m a n t h a n k y o u . I r e a l ly w a s j u s t – M r Th a b e t h e ju s t il lu s tr a t in g th e p o i n t , j u s t to g iv e y o u a s e n s e o f t h e e v i d e n c e . I h a v e h e a r d y o u r v ie w, I d o n ’ t k n o w if y o u w a n t to c o m m e n t o n w h a t M r B a s s o n s a id a n d I w a s r e a ll y j u s t g iv in g y o u h i g h l ig h ts , i f y o u w a n t m e t o r e a d a n y t h i n g t o y o u a g a i n I w il l c e r t a in ly d o s o a s t h e Page 91 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C h a ir h a s i n s tr u c t e d . B u t t h e p u r p o s e w a s j u s t to g i v e y o u t h e a c t u a l w o r d s o f M r B a s s o n a s h e d e s c r ib e d w h a t h e f o u n d a n d h o w h e r e a c t e d . Yo u a r e s a t is fi e d t h a t t h a t is w h a t h e s a i d . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t w a s t h e in t e r a c ti o n b e tw e e n h i m a n d P r a s a d , th a t w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e , s o I c a n n o t a g r e e o r n o t a g r e e b e c a u s e t h a t ’s w h a t h e s a y s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , is i t c o n s is t e n t w i t h y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t t h e p o s i t io n w a s o n t h e fa r m , w h a t t h e s i t u a ti o n w a s ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 10 J a , t h a n k s C h a ir. My u n d e r s t a n d i n g is th a t i t is n o t o n ly P r a s a d w h o – o r M r B a s s o n w h o s a w th is c a t tl e t h a t w e r e n o t p r o p e r l y f e d , b e c a u s e a n y . . .[ in d i s t i n c t ] f e e d w a s b o u g h t before, so he knew about the feeding and everything, it would not then t h a t a f t e r h e h a d d o n e it b e f o r e a ll o f a s u d d e n h e is n o lo n g e r d o i n g i t, b e c a u s e h e d i d f e e d t h e c a t tl e b e f o r e a n d w e r a n o u t o f th e fe e d a n d i t – m y a r g u m e n t is t h a t i t c a n n o t b e t h a t th e n a f t e r t h e fe e d w a s fi n i s h e d h e d o e s n o t k n o w t h a t h e m u s t fe e d t h e c a t tl e , h e s t il l k n e w t h a t th e c a t tl e m u s t b e f e d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e fe d b e fo r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n fr o m t h e M r B a s s o n , a n d i t m i g h t h a v e – th is m i g h t h a v e b e e n a n a n s w e r to o n e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s I p u t to 20 h i m , I g o t t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t h e t h o u g h t M r P r a s a d d i d n o t e v e n k n o w w h e r e to g e t t h e f e e d f o r th e c a t tl e , w h e r e t o g e t i t f r o m . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir h e h a d b o u g h t f e e d b e f o r e . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a d b o u g h t , th a t y o u k n o w. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: Ye s , h e k n o w s b e c a u s e h e h a d b o u g h t it b e fo r e . Page 92 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: W h e n t h e c a t t le a r r iv e d th e r e w e r e fed and the feed was bought by him. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, s o y o u s a y it c o u l d n o t b e t h a t h e d id n o t k n o w w h e r e t o b u y it ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay but the problem about funds. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I a m a t p a g e 11 o f t h e a g r e e m e n t o f t h a t J u ly a g r e e m e n t a n d j u s t b r ie f ly h o p i n g t o 10 . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I a m h a p p y y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u a r e b a c k a t t h e a g r e e m e n t , I w a s c o n c e r n e d w h e t h e r y o u h a d le f t t h e a g r e e m e n t , b e c a u s e i t s e e m e d t h a t y o u w e r e o n t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w h e r e a s I th o u g h t a t s o m e s t a g e y o u w e r e s ti ll j u s t in t e r r o g a ti n g th e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t , o r c e r t a in p r o v is i o n s o f the agreement. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s C h a ir m a n I a m tr y i n g t o d o a b i t o f b o t h , i n tr y in g to lo o k a t w h a t w a s a g r e e d h e r e a n d h o w i t w a s t h e n i m p l e m e n te d a t a p r a c t ic a l le v e l . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B e c a u s e i t is s t il l p a r t o f r i s k m i t ig a ti o n b y th e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I f h e k n e w c e r ta i n t h i n g s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 93 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e n w h a t, t h a t is t h e b r o a d t h e m e t h a t we are working through. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , w e ll I h a v e g o t s o m e q u e s t i o n s I w a n t t o a s k v e r y m u c h o n th e p r o c e s s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t . M r T h a b e t h e le t u s r e v is i t a s u b j e c t th a t w e d i s c u s s e d o n Fr id a y, i n r e la t io n t o t h e a g r e e m e n t . Yo u d i d c o n fir m t h a t – o r y o u d i d s a y t h a t y o u d i d n o t d o c e r t a in h o m e w o r k o n E s ti n a w h i c h y o u s a id y o u a c c e p t y o u s h o u ld h a v e d o n e , o r s h o u ld h a v e b e e n d o n e , y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t p a r t. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 10 T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , a n d I t h i n k y o u d i d s a y e a r li e r th a n t h a t a l s o th a t y o u h a d c o m e to a p p r e c i a t e th a t i f y o u w e r e t o g o a h e a d w i t h t h i s p r o j e c t y o u w o u l d n e e d a l o c a l e n ti t y t h a t w o u l d b e i n v o lv e d b e c a u s e P a r a s is a f o r e i g n e n ti ty, i s t h a t r i g h t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A n d y o u e n d e d u p w i th a n a r r a n g e m e n t in t e r m s o f w h ic h a s y o u u n d e r s to o d th e p o s i ti o n P a r a s a n d E s ti n a h a d s o m e a r r a n g e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e tw o o f t h e m a n d E s ti n a w a s g o in g t o b e th e r e t o p la y a c e r t a in r o le b u t y o u u n d e r s to o d E s ti n a b a s ic a l ly to b e P a r a s a g e n t, is th a t r ig h t? 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o w w e ta lk e d a ls o I t h i n k i t w a s o n Fr i d a y a b o u t in t e r m s o f r i s k m a n a g e m e n t t h e p r o b l e m t h a t w o u l d a r is e i f s o m e th i n g went wrong with the project and Estina was responsible for that and the D e p a r t m e n t w a n te d to s u e E s t i n a i f E s ti n a r e a ll y d i d n o t h a v e a n y t h in g w h e n w e ’r e t a l k i n g a b o u t th a t h o m e w o r k , y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t ? Page 94 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. J a , n o w w h e n I l o o k a t th is a g r e e m e n t I s e e th e a g r e e m e n t is b e t w e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d E s ti n a a n d th e r e f o r e P a r a s is n o t a p a r ty to t h e a g r e e m e n t i n a s a s e p a r a t e e n t i ty, is t h a t r ig h t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Ye s n o w s o m e o f t h e s e t h i n g s t h a t m i g h t b e t h in g s t h a t a r e l e g a l a n d th e r e fo r e to th e e x t e n t t h a t y o u r e li e d o n th e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r to a d v is e y o u o n e c a n u n d e r s t a n d t h o s e t h in g s , b u t o n e s e e s t h a t , o n e , P a r a s is n o t a p a r ty t o t h is , a n d t w o I d o n ’t s e e 10 a n y th in g t h a t s a y s E s ti n a i s c o n c l u d i n g th is a g r e e m e n t o n b e h a l f o f o r as an agent of Paras. Is my u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t , d o e s i t c o i n c i d e with your understanding? I t s e e m s t h a t E s ti n a is e n t e r i n g in t o t h is a g r e e m e n t o n i ts o w n , t h e r e is m e n ti o n i n t h e I th in k p r e a m b l e t h e r e is m e n t io n o f P a r a s b l a h b l a h - b l a h b u t i t s e e m s th a t f o r a l l in t e n ts a n d p u r p o s e s w h e n o n e l o o k s a t t h i s a g r e e m e n t i t is s i m p l y a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n E s ti n a in i ts o w n r ig h t a n d th e d e p a r t m e n t . Ar e y o u a b l e to s a y a n y th i n g o n t h a t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: that. 20 J a , th a n k s C h a ir, y e s i n d e e d i t i s li k e I f C h a ir y o u w e r e t o c o m p a r e th e f ir s t w h i c h c o v e r e d t h o s e is s u e s , i n m o s t i n s t a n c e s w h e r e Es t in a a p p e a r e d P a r a s a ls o a p p e a r e d , b u t o n t h e s e c o n d o n e i n th is n e w d r a ft i t w a s s o l e l y s p e c i fi c t o E s t i n a a n d a s I w a s m a d e t o u n d e r s t a n d is t h a t w e c a n o n l y p u t t h is o b l ig a ti o n t o a S o u t h A f r ic a n r e g is t e r e d c o m p a n y, k e e p i n g i n m i n d t h a t t h e r e is a n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n th e t w o a n d w e w i ll t h e n m e n ti o n i t i n t h e p r e a m b l e t h a t t h is is w h a t w e u n d e r s t o o d Es t in a t o b e s i g n i n g t h is a g r e e m e n t a n d Page 95 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 h a v i n g th a t r e la t io n s h ip e x is t in g b e tw e e n t h e t w o o f t h e m , h e n c e i t is lik e th is . CHAIRPERSON: B u t a s a t t h e ti m e o f t h e s ig n in g o f t h is a g r e e m e n t w e r e y o u a s th e D e p a r t m e n t i n p o s s e s s i o n o f a n y agreement signed between Estina and Paras? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h a t w h a t I h a d r e q u e s te d , t h e fir s t d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s g i v e n w a s a l e t t e r a n d th e n t h e r e a f te r t h e n th is a g r e e m e n t c a m e t h r o u g h , b e c a u s e w e i n s i s t e d in t h e a g r e e m e n t, w h ic h t h e y c o n f ir m e d i n w r i t in g a n d l a t e t h e n t h e y p r o v id e d u s w i th th e 10 agreement. CHAIRPERSON: But you were not in possession of any agreement b e t w e e n E s t i n a a n d P a r a s a s a t t h e t i m e o f s ig n i n g th is a g r e e m e n t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r b y th a t t i m e w e h a d a l r e a d y g iv e n i t to t h e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n P a r a s a n d Es t in a . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: And Estina yes. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I c a n ’ t j u s t r e c a ll w h e th e r i t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A t s o m e s ta g e y o u h a d i t b u t y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r a s a t t h i s t i m e y o u h a d i t. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I t w a s g i v e n , j a , I th i n k s o . CHAIRPERSON: c o n c e r n is t h a t i t s e e ms o n t h i s Part of my a g r e e m e n t t h a t i f Es t in a d i d n o t p l a y i ts p a r t , e v e n a f te r y o u m i g h t h a v e g iv e n i t m i lli o n s o f t a x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y, b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o h o m e w o r k Page 96 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 d o n e to s e e w h e t h e r if t h e y d i s a p p e a r e d , t h e d ir e c to r s d is a p p e a r e d w i th t h e m i ll i o n s c o m in g fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t t h a t y o u c o u ld h a v e r e c o u r s e to recover those monies. Yo u d i d n o t k n o w th a t y o u a r e d e a li n g w it h a c o m p a n y t h a t h a d a s s e ts th a t y o u c o u l d y o u k n o w g o t o c o u r t a n d a tt a c h a n d s o o n , i s t h a t r i g h t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w i f I m u s t s a y t h i s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m u s t s a y w h a t y o u b e l ie v e e x p l a i n s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g , y o u r p o i n t o f v i e w a s y o u u n d e r s t o o d i t, t h i s is a n 10 o p p o r t u n i ty f o r y o u t o p u t y o u r s i d e o f th e s t o r y, b e c a u s e p a r t o f w h a t t h is fo r c e s u s t o d o is t o l o o k a t h o w y o u a s th e h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a n d l e d th is , b e a r in g in m i n d y o u h a d a n o b l ig a ti o n to t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n t a x p a y e r. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir, I w il l r e s p o n d to t h e C h a ir ’s q u e s t i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a i r w e h a v e j u s t r e a d a l e tt e r before we went on tea. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Is s u e s t h a t w e a r e s a y in g t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w e h a d h a d b e f o r e w a s i ll e g a l. N o w il le g a l i t is a v e r y s tr o n g t e r m , w h ic h I h a d to l is t e n t o , b u t a t t h e b a c k o f m y m in d I s t il l b e li e v e th e fir s t a g r e e m e n t w a s t a k i n g a w a y t h e il le g a l p a r t o f i t . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u b e l ie v e it protected D e p a r t m e n t. Page 97 of 194 the in t e r e s t of the 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I b e li e v e i t – b e c a u s e i t p r o te c t e d th e in t e r e s t o f th e b e n e f ic i a r ie s , b e c a u s e w e h a d i n te n d e d t h e s e p r o j e c ts t o b e l o n g t o t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s , n o t t h e D e p a r t m e n t . S o t h e y w o u l d fr o m t h e s t a r t b e r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e p r o j e c t . T h a t is m y b e l i e f , b u t t h e f a c t t h a t i t w a s i ll e g a l t h e n I w i t h d r a w t h a t p o s it io n b e c a u s e i t w a s d e e m e d t o s e e n t o b e s e e n t o b e il le g a l , h e n c e th is o n e w a s b r o u g h t o n b o a r d . B u t th is o n e l ik e C h a ir p e r s o n is s a y i n g i t d i d n o t p u t P a r a s o r le t m e r e p h r a s e a n d s a y i t w a s n o t b i n d i n g to P a r a s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: On Paras. 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: On Paras, it was just saying Paras . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s g o t s o m e r o le o u ts i d e o f th e a g r e e m e n t . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: O u ts i d e o f t h e a g r e e m e n t t o p l a y, h e n c e t h e n b u t C h a ir if y o u a r e i n m y p o s i ti o n y o u t h e n t h e y n o r m a ll y s a y t h e r e a r e t h r e e p e o p l e y o u m u s t l is t e n t o , it i s y o u r l a w y e r, i t is y o u r d o c t o r a n d i t is y o u r a c c o u n ta n t , b e c a u s e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I t h o u g h t y o u w o u l d s a y y o u r p a s t o r a s w e ll . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, y e s . 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: S o y o u d o – n o t th a t w e d i d n o t a s k q u e s t io n s , w e d i d a s k q u e s t io n s li k e I h a d e x p l a i n e d , t h e y s a i d n o , n o , n o th is w il l b e d o n e a n d t h e n y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a n d o v e r th e p r o je c t s t o t h e fa r m e r s a n d t h o s e a r e t h e p e o p le w h o h a d i n te n d e d to , b u t a s C h a ir e x p l a i n s i t n o w I s e e w h a t i m p l ic a t i o n t h a t w o u ld m e a n . I t a k e i t t h a t t h e n t h e y w o u l d h a v e a r e c o u r s e in t h a t r e g a r d , i f a n y is s u e i n t h a t Page 98 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 r e g a r d w o u ld c o m e u p . CHAIRPERSON: J a , n o i t is a w o r r y in g f a c to r b e c a u s e w e ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a lo t o f m o n e y ta x p a y e r ’s m o n e y t h a t w a s e n v is a g e d t o b e p u t in t o t h i s p r o j e c t , s o b u t a ls o I w a n t e d t o g o t o C l a u s e 2 . 5 w h ic h i s o n p a g in a t e d p a g e 8 , it s a y s : “ E s ti n a is w il li n g a n d a b le to e x e c u te th e p r o j e c t a s d e f in e d i n C l a u s e 3 . 1 h e r e u n d e r, a n d h a s th e n e c e s s a r y e x p e r i e n c e a n d e x p e r t is e i n c o n n e c ti o n th e r e w i t h . ” O f c o u r s e t h a t i s n o t f a c tu a lly c o r r e c t , i t i s P a r a s w h o h a d e x p e r i e n c e 10 a n d e x p e r t is e is n ’t i t, n o t E s ti n a ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o th is w a s n o t c o r r e c t . Ye s Ms G c a b a s h e i t w o u l d h e l p m e if t o t h e e x te n t t h a t y o u m a y h a v e q u e s t io n s o n c e r t a i n p r o v i s i o n s i f w e t o o k c a r e o f t h a t p a r t a n d th e n g o i n to i m p l e m e n t a t i o n , b u t o f c o u r s e i f t h e r e a r e n o t th e n t h a t is fi n e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . I ju s t w a n t c l a r it y o n th e o n e a s p e c t y o u w e r e d is c u s s i n g w i t h t h e C h a i r m a n n o w, w e a r e a g r e e d t h a t t h e o n ly d o c u m e n t t h a t E s t in a a n d P a r a s s i g n e d is a m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d in g ? 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. O k a y t h a t is f in e , t h e r e i s n o o th e r document you know of? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h a t w a s t h e o n l y d o c u m e n t th a t w e h a d th a t th e t w o h a d s ig n e d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d a s w e s a i d l a s t w e e k i t w a s v a li d fo r Page 99 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 one year? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: in d i c a t e d e a r li e r. T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . L e t ’s g o to o u r p a g e 11 a s I’ d T h e 6 . 1 d e a l s w i th t h e o b li g a ti o n s th a t w e r e t o b e performed by Estina and they are set out in Annexure A. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: That is correct. A n d w e h a v e a g r e e d th a t t h e s e a r e a l ig n e d t o th e s a m e fa c to r s w e h a v e b e e n d e b a ti n g s i n c e l a s t w e e k , y o u a r e c o m f o r t a b l e w i t h t h a t? 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S e c o n d p o i n t is t h a t c a p i t a l in j e c ti o n o f 2 2 8 m i lli o n th a t Es t in a w a s g o i n g t o p r o v i d e c a n I a s k t h i s q u e s ti o n i n r e l a ti o n to t h a t , w a s t h e r e a r e a s o n f o r E s t in a t o p u t u p t h i s c a p i t a l i n p h a s e t w o a s o p p o s e d to p h a s e o n e , y o u k n o w j u s t to b e a b l e t o s a y w e a r e a b o n a f i d e o p e r a t o r, h e r e is o u r m o n e y w e a r e p u t ti n g u p th e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t n o w a s w e s t a r t . Wa s t h e r e a r e a s o n y o u s h i ft e d i t t o phase two? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir th e p h a s e o n e o f t h e p r o j e c t w a s t h e d a i ly p r o j e c t w h ic h w a s to s u p p l y t h e m in i m u m 20 r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e p r o c e s s in g p la n t , th a t w a s t h e o b l i g a t io n t h a t t h e f a r m e r s h a d t o p u t in p la c e , t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s m il k , a n d i n d o i n g t h a t r e s p o n s i b i li ty t h e d e p a r t m e n t m a d e m o n e y a v a il a b l e f o r m i lk t o b e m a d e a v a il a b l e . T h e n o n c e t h e m i n i m u m r e q u i r e m e n t o f t h e m ilk w a s m a d e a v a il a b l e t h r o u g h th e p r o j e c t t h e n E s t in a t h e n w o u l d m o v e t o e s t a b li s h in g t h e p r o c e s s in g p la n t , s o t h a t w a s t h e p h a s e t w o , s o t h e Page 100 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 D e p a r t m e n t w a s t o d o p h a s e o n e , E s ti n a w ill d o p h a s e t w o . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: D i d y o u k n o w h o w lo n g i t w o u l d ta k e t o p u t u p t h e p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h e y h a d g iv e n u s w h a t w o u l d y o u c a ll th a t , t h e t i m e l in e s , a lr e a d y t h e y h a d g iv e n t h a t t o u s , b e c a u s e it w a s a r e q u ir e m e n t i n a s p a r t o f th e r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e fir s t m o n e y t h a t w a s m a d e a v a il a b l e , i t w a s a ls o i n c l u d e d t h a t t h e y m u s t p r o v i d e t h a t to u s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 Yo u s e e I a s k e d th e s e q u e s t io n s b e c a u s e if y o u g o t o r e f e r e n c e b u n d l e D , D f o r D o n a ld , a n d g o to p a g e 1 4 5 3 , page 1453, Bundle D for Donald. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Yo u w il l f i n d t h a t t h e s e a r e Es t in a b a n k a c c o u n t s t a te m e n t s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o y o u h a v e a c r o s s t h e to p y o u c a n id e n t i fy t h a t t h i s i s th e d ir e c t o r is in a P t y L i m it e d , i f y o u lo o k a t t h e b a l a n c e b r o u g h t f o r w a r d o n t h e 6 t h , I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , o n th e 1 8 t h o f J u n e , h a v e y o u f o u n d t h a t , t h e b a la n c e i n t h is a c c o u n t w a s R 3 2 0 . 9 8 , 20 n o w th is is o n t h e 1 8 t h o f J u n e a n d t h is is 2 0 1 2 , b e c a u s e t h e s e s t a te m e n ts a r e d r a w n f r o m t h e 1 8 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 2 t o t h e 1 7 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 2 , y o u ’v e s e e n th a t e n tr y ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . C a n I m o v e t o th e n e x t o n e ? T h e n t h e r e w a s a m a n a g e m e n t fe e a n d t h a t b a l a n c e d r o p p e d t o R 2 8 5 . 9 8 , d o y o u Page 101 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 s e e t h a t e n tr y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s , it ’s c o r r e c t . T h e n e x t e n tr y is a s e r v i c e fe e a n d th e b a l a n c e o n t h e 3 0 t h o f J u n e i s a t R 2 4 0 .9 8 . Ar e y o u t h e r e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e n t h e l a s t o n e I w a n t t o p o in t to f o r c u r r e n t p u r p o s e s is o n t h e 4 t h J u ly. N o w y o u s ig n e d t h is a g r e e m e n t o n t h e 5 t h J u ly. O n t h e 4 t h J u ly t h e b a l a n c e i n th is a c c o u n t w a s R 1 6 .9 8 . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e r e a s o n I p o i n t t h is o u t t o y o u is b a c k a g a in t o t h a t r is k a n a ly s is t h a t w e h a v e b e e n w o r k in g t h r o u g h . w e r e p r e p a r i n g t o g iv e Es t in a a l a r g e a m o u n t o f m o n e y. g iv i n g th e m c e r t a i n r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s . Yo u Yo u w e r e Th e y s a i d th e y h a d R 2 2 8 m il li o n t h a t t h e y c o u ld p u t i n t o t h e p r o j e c t b u t h a d y o u l o o k e d a t th e ir b a n k a c c o u n t s y o u m i g h t h a v e h a d a d i ff e r e n t d i s c u s s i o n w it h t h e m . Yo u h a d n o r e a s o n t o c a ll fo r th e ir b a n k a c c o u n t s a s y o u d id y o u r d u e d il ig e n c e – a s y o u d i d y o u r d u e d i li g e n c e e x e r c is e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a th a n k s C h a ir. We – we had a s t a n d a r d a r r a n g e m e n t a s a d e p a r t m e n t m o s t ly w i t h i m p le m e n t in g a g e n ts 20 w h e r e w e h a d p r e f e r r e d t h a t i f y o u – th a t is w h a t w e a d v i s e d th e m . If you – if you engage with us do not mingle your other business with our b u s i n e s s . S o w e h a d a d v is e d t h e m . I d o n o t k n o w i f th e y d i d i n t h a t c a s e w e o n l y a d v is e d th e m t h a t w e w ill n e e d y o u t o h a v e a s e p a r a te b a n k a c c o u n t f o r t h e a c t iv i t ie s o f th e p r o j e c ts t h a t w e a r e d e a l i n g w i th . N o w I d o n o t k n o w i f i n th is c a s e th e y d i d b u t t h a t i s w h a t w e a d v is e d Page 102 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e m b e c a u s e w e – if r e q u ir e d w e m a y w a n t y o u to p r o v i d e u s w it h y o u r s t a te m e n ts a n d i f th e y a r e o t h e r b u s i n e s s e s i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t th a t y o u m a y n o t w a n t u s to s e e w e w il l th e n b e a b le to s e e . W e d o n o t k n o w i f t h is is w h a t t h e y d i d in t h i s C h a i r b u t w h a t – t h e q u e s ti o n th a t I a m b e i n g a s k e d i f w e d i d o u r d u e d ili g e n c e o n t h e a c c o u n t i f t h e r e w a s m o n e y, n o w e d i d n o t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C a n I – w e h a v e h a d a lo n g d is c u s s i o n a b o u t th is s o I t h i n k m a y b e I s h o u l d m o v e o n to t h e n e x t p o in t w h i c h is 6. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l if y o u a r e g o i n g t o m o v e o n l e t u s – le t m e s a y t h is . Yo u s e e Mr T h a b e t h e u p to a c e r ta in p o i n t w it h r e g a r d t o l e g a l m a t t e r s y o u m a y r e ly o n th e – y o u m a y b e a b l e t o s a y I – I h a d t o li s te n t o a d v is e g i v e n b y t h e s t a te l a w a d v is o r s . So I am saying up to a c e r t a i n p o i n t b e c a u s e i n th e e n d y o u a s t h e a c c o u n ti n g o ff ic e r o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t a s th e H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t y o u h a d a n o b li g a t io n t o s a ti s f y y o u r s e l f a b o u t c e r t a in th i n g s b e f o r e p u t ti n g y o u r s i g n a t u r e o n t h i n g s . A n d t h a t is w h y y o u n e e d e d to i n t e r r o g a t e w h a t y o u w e r e b e in g t o l d e v e n t h e l e g a l a d v i c e t h a t y o u w e r e b e i n g g iv e n . E v e n n o t b e in g a la w y e r y o u s a y t o p e o p l e e x p la i n i t t o m e o n th e b a s is t h a t y o u 20 u n d e r s t a n d I a m n o t a l a w y e r I m u s t fo ll o w w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g . I m u s t u n d e r s t a n d t h e r a t io n a l e . A n d t h e n i f y o u a r e n o t h a p p y y o u s a y n o , n o , n o , I a m n o t h a p p y m a y b e I s h o u ld g o a n d lo o k fo r a s e c o n d o p i n i o n . Get somebody else because I am – it does not make sense to me what y o u a r e t e l li n g m e . I a m g o i n g to b e e x p o s i n g t h e D e p a r t m e n t t o a s e r io u s r i s k if I g o a l o n g w i t h y o u r a d v i c e . Page 103 of 194 So you yourself had an 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 o b li g a ti o n t o e x e r c i s e y o u r o w n j u d g m e n t . Th o s e o t h e r p e o p l e w e r e s i m p l y a d v is i n g y o u . Th e y w e r e n o t t a k in g o v e r y o u r jo b . Yo u s e e . S o t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t w a s b e i n g p u t to y o u is i t is li n k e d t o w h a t I r a i s e d w i t h y o u e a r li e r o n . Is , c a n y o u s e e t h e r is k th a t y o u p u t t h e D e p a r t m e n t i n b y n o t d o i n g th e r is k a s s e s s m e n t , t h e h o m e w o r k t h a t w e t a lk e d a b o u t . Yo u a r e in t e r m s o f t h i s a g r e e m e n t e x p e c ti n g E s ti n a to p a y m o r e t h a n R 2 0 0 m i ll io n i n t o t h e p r o j e c t b u t y o u d o n o t e v e n k n o w i f t h e y h a v e g o t a c e n t i n th e ir a c c o u n t . A n d w h a t i s b e i n g s a i d is l o o k – lo o k a t t h e b a n k s ta t e m e n ts a s a t t h a t t i m e . 10 One was how much Ms Gcabashe? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e – t h e d a y b e fo r e t h e R 3 0 m il li o n w e n t in C h a ir m a n t h e r e w a s R 1 6 . 0 0 . CHAIRPERSON: R16.00? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : R a n d in t h e a c c o u n t y e s . CHAIRPERSON: H o w c a n y o u e x p e c t t h a t e n t it y t o g iv e y o u R 2 2 8 m il li o n w h e r e w il l t h e y g e t it fr o m ? Yo u a r e t h e H e a d o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t. Yo u h a v e c e r t a i n r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s . Yo u a r e th e A c c o u n t i n g O ff ic e r. Yo u m u s t l o o k a f te r t h e ta x p a y e r s ’ m o n e y. Yo u m u s t l o o k a ft e r t h e b u d g e t o f th e D e p a r t m e n t . H o w d o y o u d o t h a t ? 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a C h a ir I w a s w e ll a w a r e t h a t th e in v e s t m e n t i n t o t h e p r o j e c t w a s n o t c o m in g fr o m E s ti n a . I t w a s c o m i n g fr o m P a r a s b e c a u s e th a t h a d b e e n t h e a g r e e m e n t . A n d th e t w o p r o je c t s w e r e s p li t . A l th o u g h t h e s e c o n d p h a s e o f t h e p r o j e c t d e p e n d e n t o n t h e fir s t p h a s e o f t h e p r o je c t e v e n i f E s ti n a / P a r a s w o u ld h a v e s a i d w e d o n o t fe e l lik e d o in g t h e p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t a n y m o r e th e d a i r y o n i ts o w n Page 104 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 could run. plant. T h e o n ly t h i n g t h a t y o u w o u ld n o t h a v e is a p r o c e s s in g B e c a u s e w e d i d n o t w a n t t o m in g l e th e m o n e y b e c a u s e i f y o u t a k e th e ir m o n e y in t o t h e d a i r y a n d o u r m o n e y i n to t h e p r o c e s s in g p la n t h e n w e w o u l d h a v e m i n g l e d th e m o n e y t o e v e n b e m o r e d i ffic u lt . So t h a t i s w h y w e h a d s a i d t h e D e p a r t m e n t d o th e d a ir y, Es t in a d o th e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t . S o t h e t w o a r e tw o s e p a r a te d i r e c t c o m m i t m e n t s . S o t h a t i f w e s tr u g g l e w i t h t h e d a ir y i t i s u s , t h e D e p a r t m e n t w h o s tr u g g le . I f t h e y s tr u g g l e w i th t h e p r o c e s s in g p la n t i t is th e m w h o s tr u g g l e w i t h t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t . B u t e a c h o n e s h o u l d b e a b l e to o p e r a te a n d o n ly 10 t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t w i ll d e p e n d o n t h e d a ir y w h ic h i s t h e m i lk p r o d u c t io n p a r t . Hence we have been then implementing that. I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n i s s a y i n g t h a t t h i s p e r s o n m ig h t n o t h a v e i m p l e m e n t e d t h e ir p a r t w h ic h w o u ld n o t h a v e a d ir e c t b e a r i n g o n t h e fir s t p h a s e w h ic h w a s m i lk p r o d u c t io n . I n d ir e c t ly i t w o u l d b e c a u s e w e w o u l d t h e n h a v e t h e m i lk b u t w e h a v e th e n t o b e d e p e n d e n t o n s o m e b o d y e ls e to d o t h e p r o c e s s i n g . T h a t i s h o w w e h a v e k e p t t h e t w o a n d t h a t w a s a ls o th e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e s t a t e l a w a d v i s o r s w h e n t h e y d r a f t e d t h e ir a g r e e m e n t t o s a y w e w il l k e e p t h e s e t w o s e p a r a t e s o t h a t w e h a v e g o t c h a ll e n g e . 20 W e d o n o t h a v e m i n g l in g o f m o n e y. We k n o w t h i s is t h e D e p a r t m e n t m o n e y a n d t h i s is w h a t i t w il l d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u s e e i t is – t h is s p e a k s t o a n e a r li e r q u e s ti o n . W h a t ty p e o f e n ti t y m u s t y o u d e a l w i t h fo r s u c h a b i g p r o j e c t? Yo u s e e t h a t – t h a t is w h e r e it s ta r t s . S o w h a t y o u a r e t e l li n g m e r e la t e s t o w h a t m e a s u r e s y o u a r e tr y in g to p u t i n p la c e t o tr y a n d m in i m is e t h e r is k t h a t i s a lr e a d y th e r e b e c a u s e t h e h o m e w o r k w a s n o t d o n e . Page 105 of 194 Yo u 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 understand that? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is tr u e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: J a I w o u l d – a t a c e r ta i n s t a g e y o u n e e d t o s i f t th e ty p e o f p e o p le , ty p e o f e n ti t ie s t h a t y o u c a n b e i n v o lv e d w i th f o r c e r ta in p r o j e c ts . E n ti ti e s m u s t m e e t c e r ta i n r e q u ir e m e n ts b e f o r e y o u c a n b e in v o lv e d w i t h th e m o n c e r ta i n b ig p r o j e c ts . A n d t h a t th e r e i s a r e a s o n f o r t h a t. Yo u s e e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ja okay thank you. 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C a n I a d d a s m y c o ll e a g u e h a s j u s t p o i n t e d o u t to m e t h a t in t h e M O U n o p r o v is io n i s m a d e o r t h e r e is n o p a r t ic u l a r c l a u s e o r a t e r m t h a t s a y s P a r a s w i ll d o t h e f u n d in g , E s t i n a w i ll s i m p ly b e d o in g t h e s u p e r v is o r y o v e r s i g h t f u n c ti o n s . Yo u w o u l d a g r e e w i t h t h a t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: C h a i r I a g r e e . R e m e m b e r n o w w e a r e t a lk in g o f t h e t w o a g r e e m e n t s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: A n d t h e r e f i n e d o n e is t h e o n e t h a t e v e n t u a l ly t o o k e ff e c t . A n d t h a t is t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t d o e s n o t b in d o n 20 P a r a s . E v e r y t h i n g t h a t s i ts t h e r e i t is t h e s i g n a t u r e o f E s ti n a w i t h t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g a t t h e b a c k o f o u r m i n d t h a t i t r e p r e s e n ts P a r a s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s t h e s i m p l e p o i n t w a s th a t t h e r e is n o document that you have certainly no document we have come across t h a t c l e a r ly s e t s o u t t h a t P a r a s w i ll b e p r o v i d in g t h e R 2 2 8 m il li o n a n d E s ti n a w il l b e d o i n g s o m e th i n g v e r y d i ff e r e n t . Th e o n ly d o c u m e n t th a t Page 106 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 d e a ls w i th t h a t is th is a g r e e m e n t a t 5 . 2 a n d i t s a y s : “ E s ti n a s h a l l p r o v i d e a c a p i t a l i n je c t i o n o f R 2 2 8 m il li o n . [ S o u th A fr ic a n currency]. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir t h e r e is . T h e r e is a n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n ts th a t t a l k to th a t . A l l t h e p r e s e n ta t io n s t h a t I d i d t o t h e e x e c u tiv e c o u n c il s p e a k t o t h a t a n d a ls o t h e – t h e s t u d i e s ta lk s t o t h a t . T h e y a r e v e r y s p e c if ic t o s a y w h o i n v e s t w h e r e a n d h o w m u c h . S o t h a t – t h a t h a s b e e n c l a r i fi e d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 Maybe we should look at what you did present to EXCO. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e c o p y I h a v e t h o u g h in t h i s f il e i s u n s i g n e d s o y o u w i ll t e l l u s w h a t th e s t a t u s o f t h is d o c u m e n t is . I t h i n k it w a s s i m p l y p r in t e d o ff a c o m p u t e r. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: But if you go to page 158 of the Reports Fi l e a n d i t w il l b e i n B u n d l e B . N o w t h is is a n i m p o r ta n t d o c u m e n t b e c a u s e if y o u a r e g o in g t o c o n f ir m t h i s ; t h is is w h a t s e r v e d b e fo r e t h e E X C O a s p a r t o f y o u r s u b m i s s io n . 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And the purpose is a request for the a l lo c a t io n o f a d d i ti o n a l f u n d s . I w ill n o t g o i n to th e d e ta il I a m r e a lly ju s t s k i m m i n g t h r o u g h i t a n d w h a t I a m d o i n g is tr y i n g t o fi n d a p a r a g r a p h h e r e t h a t e x p l a i n s t h a t P a r a s is t h e e n ti ty t h a t w i ll b e b r i n g i n g t h e c a p i t a l in je c ti o n in a n d n o t Es ti n a . In t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h i t Page 107 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 is p u r p o s e . S e c o n d h e a d i n g s i m p ly d e a ls w i t h b a c k g r o u n d . I a m r e a ll y ju s t g l o s s i n g o v e r w h a t is h e r e . T h e n u n d e r th e t h ir d h e a d i n g y o u h a v e d is c u s s io n a n d i t is a d is c u s s i o n r e g a r d i n g t h is b e in g a p h a s e d in v e s t m e n t b y p a r t n e r s i n t h e p r o j e c t b a s e d o n a t o ta l p r o je c te d in v e s t e d – i n v e s t m e n t o f R 5 7 0 m il li o n . T h e p h a s e d i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h e a b o v e d a ir y p r o je c t is b a s e d o n a n in i ti a l g r a n t o f R 3 0 m il li o n b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t w h e r e b y a to t a l o f R 11 4 m i ll i o n is r e q u ir e d p e r y e a r. T h e D e p a r t m e n t h a s s h o r tf a ll o f R 8 4 m i ll io n p e r y e a r o v e r th e n e x t t h r e e y e a r s t o i m p l e m e n t th is h i g h l e v e l p r o je c t . T h is w i ll a d d u p t o a to t a l 10 c o m m i t m e n t g r a n t o f R 3 4 0 m i lli o n o v e r a t h r e e y e a r p e r io d . A n d th e n i t d e a ls w i t h t h e h i g h l e v e l o u t c o m e s th a t a r e e x p e c t e d . Again so far t h e r e is n o th in g t h a t s a y s P a r a s i s g o i n g to b e p r o v id i n g a n y o f t h e c a p i t a l t h a t i s r e q u ir e d . I h a v e t u r n e d t h e p a g e to p a g e 1 6 0 w h ic h d e a ls w i t h p r o d u c ts , m a r k e t in g a n d s a l e s , m a n a g e m e n t , d e p l o y m e n t m o d e l a n d a g a in I a m l o o k i n g f o r a n i n d ic a t o r th a t P a r a s is p u t t in g m o n e y o n th e t a b l e . F in a n c ia l m o d e l a g a i n if y o u r e a d t h a t t h e r e is n o t h i n g a b o u t P a r a s b r in g in g m o n e y to t h e p r o j e c t . Over reaching b e n e fi ts f o r th e P r o v i n c e a n d th e n a ti o n t h o s e a r e s e t o u t . A g a i n n o t h i n g a b o u t P a r a s b r in g in g m o n e y. 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s S ir. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u l le t n u m b e r 2 . CHAIRPERSON: What page are you now on? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Page. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O n p a g e 1 6 0 C h a ir m a n . B u l le t n u m b e r 2 Page 108 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 p l e a s e r e a d th a t i n to t h e r e c o r d M r T h a b e t h e ? B u l l e t n u m b e r 2 p le a s e r e a d t h a t in t o t h e r e c o r d M r T h a b e th e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y I h a v e g o t i t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r t h e b u ll e t s a y s : “ E s ti n a w i ll p r o v id e t h e r e q u ir e d c a p i ta l i n j e c ti o n a s w e ll a s t h e t a c ti c a l k n o w h o w w h i c h w il l b e p r o v id e d by Paras.” ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Please interpret that for us in your u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e s e n t e n c e ? 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: M y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s th a t E s t i n a w ill m a k e t h a t a v a i la b l e b u t it w i ll b e p r o v i d e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is t h a t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: T h e c a p i t a l i n j e c t io n , th e t e c h n i c a l k n o w h o w h a s to b e p r o v i d e d b y E s ti n a w h i c h w il l b e p r o v i d e d b y P a r a s to them. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h a t e x a c t ly is P a r a s p r o v i d in g ? P l e a s e t e ll u s w h a t y o u u n d e r s ta n d ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h e c a p i ta l i n j e c ti o n w h i c h is t h e m o n e y p l u s th e e x p e r t is e . T h a t is w h a t t h e s e n t e n c e is s a y in g . 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o Mr MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: t h e n g o to p a g e 1 6 2 . T h e n – if w e th e n g o t o C h a ir i f w e Th e n y o u h a v e c a p i t a l i n j e c t io n w h i c h w a s r e fe r r e d t o i n to th a t b u l le t / e q u ip m e n t e tc e t e r a w h ic h s a y s E s ti n a / P a r a s a n d th e n th e b u d g e t o n t h e r i g h t h a n d s i d e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h a t – I c o n c e d e t h a t i s w h a t is w r i t te n Page 109 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 h e r e f ir s t . W h a t d o c u m e n t d o y o u h a v e w h e r e E s ti n a a n d P a r a s h a v e a g r e e d t o w h a t is w r i t t e n h e r e ? T h is i s a d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u t h e D e p a r t m e n t p r e p a r e d . W h a t d o c u m e n t i n f o r me d th is ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e r e w a s a m e m o r a n d u m o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g b e t w e e n t h e tw o w h i c h r e l a te s to th e i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f t h i s p r o j e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I a m s o r r y Ms G c a b a s h e c a n w e g o b a c k t o t h a t c la u s e ? D o n o t f o r g e t t h e q u e s t io n y o u h a d p u t b u t I a m s ti ll in t h a t c la u s e . 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n th e – in t h e a g r e e m e n t C h a ir m a n ? CHAIRPERSON: Th e o n e b u ll e t – s e c o n d b u ll e t p o i n t . It says Mr T h a b e th e a n d I k n o w t h a t a t p a g e 1 6 2 th e r e m a y b e s o m e th i n g to b e s a i d a b o u t i t b u t h e r e a t 1 6 0 i t s a y s “ E s t in a w ill p r o v i d e t h e r e q u i r e d c a p i t a l i n je c ti o n . ” O k a y M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n i t s a y s : “ A s w e l l a s t h e t e c h n ic a l k n o w h o w w h ic h w il l b e p r o v i d e d b y P a r a s . ” 1 . T h e w a y i t is w o r d e d i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n w o r d e d i n a m u c h m o r e c le a r e r w a y b u t I s e e m t o u n d e r s t a n d i t t o s a y : 20 I m e a n i f y o u d i d n o t h a v e – i f i t s to p p e d a t k n o w h o w a n d i t d id n o t s a y w h ic h w il l b e p r o v i d e d b y P a r a s i t w il l b e c l e a r t h a t b o th th e c a p i ta l in je c t i o n a n d t h e t e c h n ic a l k n o w h o w w o u l d b e p r o v i d e d b y E s ti n a . t h e s e n t e n c e s t o p p e d a ft e r k n o w h o w. If But what comes after knowhow w h ic h is – w h i c h w i ll b e p r o v i d e d b y P a r a s s e e m s to a d d s o m e th i n g a n d t h e o n e m e a n in g m a y b e i n e ff e c t t h a t E s t in a w il l p r o v i d e t h e c a p i t a l Page 110 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 in je c t i o n a n d w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e te c h n ic a l k n o w h o w P a r a s w ill provide that. B u t I a c c e p t t h a t it i s n o t w o r d e d in th e m o s t – in th e c le a r e s t w a y s b u t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g i s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f i t is t h a t b o t h w il l b e p r o v i d e d b y P a r a s a n d E s t in a . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : P a r a s . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c a p i t a l i n je c t i o n a n d t h e t e c h n ic a l k n o w h o w. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is h o w y o u u n d e r s t a n d i t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . T h a t i t w i ll b e p r o v id e d b y P a r a s 10 t h r o u g h E s ti n a . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: But it might not have been worded t h a t w a y C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . C a n I t h e n p l e a s e a s k y o u t o p ic k u p R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e A a n d g o t o p a g e 1 7 0 . R e f e r e n c e Bundle A. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e b e fo r e … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s t h e s a m e i s s u e C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: It is the same issue. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t is th e s a m e i s s u e o k a y a l r i g h t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a i r m a n . Page 111 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o y o u lo o k i n g f o r p a g e 1 7 0 w h i c h is t h e p r o j e c t p r o p o s a l t h a t w a s s u b m i t t e d t o y o u b y Es t in a a n d P a r a s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m t h e r e C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: U n d e r b u s i n e s s m o d e l th e fo ll o w i n g is written: “ I n li n e w it h th e a g r i B E E b u s in e s s n o r m s s ti p u l a te d by government Estina proposes that a new special p u r p o s e v e h ic le S P V b e c r e a t e d i n w h ic h E s ti n a w i ll 10 hold 49% share – a 49% share while the remaining 5 1 % s h a r e s w i ll b e d is tr i b u te d to a t l e a s t t h r e e s e l e c t e d g r a n t r e c i p i e n ts . ” N o w t h is is th e i m p o r t a n t s e c ti o n . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: “ E s ti n a w i ll p r o v id e t h e r e q u ir e d c a p i ta l i n j e c ti o n a s w e ll as the te c h n i c a l k n o w h o w, w h ic h w il l be provided by Paras.” M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: “ E s ti n a w il l e n d e a v o u r t o f u n d t h e e n tir e p r o j e c t it s e l f a n d is r e q u e s t in g th e g o v e r n m e n t t o c o m m i t to a n a n n u a l g r a n t o f R 1 0 0 m i ll io n p e r y e a r f o r fi v e y e a r s t o e n s u r e th a t t h e p r o j e c t r e m a i n s s u s ta in a b l e a n d c o m m e r c ia ll y v i a b l e . ” Page 112 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 S o a s I u n d e r s ta n d th is d o c u m e n t w h ic h i s a b u s in e s s p l a n o r w h ic h is a p r o je c t p r o p o s a l p r e p a r e d b y E s ti n a b o t h Es t in a a n d P a r a s ’ l o g o s a r e o n t h i s d o c u m e n t a n d i t is a n a n n e x u r e to th e a g r e e m e n t. I t is o n e o f t h e d o c u m e n t s y o u w o u ld h a v e h a d r e g a r d t o a lo n g w i th t h e a g r e e m e n t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E s ti n a a p p e a r s t o b e u n d e r t a k i n g t h e t a s k o f p r o v i d in g t h e f u n d in g r e a d i n g t h e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e . T h e fir s t s e n te n c e is v e r y s i m i la r t o t h e o n e th a t is i n t h e p r e s e n ta t io n t o th e E X C O . H o w d o y o u in t e r p r e t t h i s M r T h a b e th e ? 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir i f I g o a n d n e g o t ia t e o n b e h a l f o f m e a n d m y p a r t n e r I w il l a lw a y s ta k e i t a s m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty. T h a t is how I understood it. B e c a u s e th e u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t th e y w e r e a ls o t a lk i n g o n b e h a l f o f P a r a s . T h a t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e y a r e t h e o n e s w h o w il l t h e n b e – b e c o m e th e v e h ic l e to m a k e s u r e t h a t m o n e y is t h e r e . Th a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g . I t w a s t h e ir r e s p o n s i b i li ty to make sure that the money is there. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e p r o b le m w a s t h a t y o u h a d n o a g r e e m e n t a s a d e p a r t m e n t w i th P a r a s o f a n y k i n d . S o y o u h a d n o r e c o u r s e a g a in s t P a r a s a n d y e t t h e y w e r e th e o n e s y o u b e l ie v e d w o u ld p r o v id e f u n d s . 20 A n d t h e a g r e e m e n t y o u s i g n e d w i th E s t i n a s a id i t w a s E s ti n a w h o w a s g o i n g t o p r o v i d e t h e f u n d s . A n d E s ti n a h a d n o m o n e y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h e C h a ir w i ll r e m e m b e r w h e n w e – w h e n I s t a r t e d t o e x p la in t h a t it w a s o u r p r o p o s a l t h a t P a r a s w il l – w i ll b e a c h a ll e n g e f o r u s t o d ir e c tl y e n te r i n to t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p . Th e y s h o u l d e it h e r Page 113 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 1 . R e g is te r a s a c o m p a n y i n S o u t h A fr i c a o r h a v e a r e p r e s e n t a tiv e . N o w o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t th e y w e r e P a r a s r e p r e s e n ta t iv e . CHAIRPERSON: B u t h o w w o u ld y o u h a v e r e c o u r s e t o P a r a s o n w h a t we know if something went wrong. N o w r e m e m b e r th a t in a s k in g th a t q u e s t io n I a c c e p t t h a t y o u a r e n o t a l a w y e r. To s o m e e x t e n t y o u r e l ie d o f s t a te l a w a d v i s o r s b u t I a m – I m u s t a ls o r e m e m b e r th a t y o u a r e t h e H e a d o f th e D e p a r t m e n t . Yo u n e e d t o a c c e p t t h a t i n t h e e n d y o u h a v e t o a c c o u n t t h e r e f o r e y o u m u s t a s k c e r ta in q u e s ti o n s to s a y w il l I h a v e a n a n s w e r if I a m a s k e d t h is q u e s t io n a b o u t t h i s p r o j e c t b e c a u s e i t is a 10 p r o j e c t o f m y d e p a r t m e n t. S o I a s k t h e q u e s ti o n ; h o w w o u l d y o u h a v e r e c o u r s e t o P a r a s in t h is s i t u a t io n i f s o m e t h i n g w e n t w r o n g ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: J a C h a ir w e w o u l d n o t b e r e q u ir e d t o d o a n y r e c o u r s e t o P a r a s d ir e c t ly b e c a u s e w e h a d n o t g iv e n t h e m m o n e y. Th e e n t i ty th a t … C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o h a n g o n I a m s o r r y – I a m i n te r r u p ti n g y o u . W e a r e t a l k i n g s o o n a f te r y o u h a d s ig n e d th e a g r e e m e n t . We were t a lk in g t h a t y o u h a v e s ig n e d . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d w e k n o w t h a t y o u r s ig n e d w it h o u t d o i n g c e r t a i n things which should have been done. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm. CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u – n o w y o u h a v e s ig n e d t h e a g r e e m e n t . Somebody says HOD I see this agreement you have signed and you h a v e n o t c h e c k e d w h e t h e r E s ti n a is c a p a b le o f y o u k n o w p u tt i n g in t h e m o n e y th a t th e a g r e e m e n t s a y s s h o u ld b e p u t in h e r e a n d I s e e t h a t y o u Page 114 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 s a y y o u h a v e n o t d o n e th e h o m e w o r k b u t y o u s a y y o u b e l i e v e th e y r e p r e s e n t P a r a s a n d s o o n a n d t h e n t h e y a s k t h e q u e s t io n . If s o m e t h i n g g o e s w r o n g o n th is p r o j e c t w it h t h is a g r e e m e n t t h a t y o u h a v e h o w w il l y o u h a v e r e c o u r s e a g a in s t P a r a s b e c a u s e y o u m u s t fo r g e t a b o u t E s t in a , Es t in a h a s n o m o n e y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u n e e d a s h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t t o s a y - to - t o b e a b l e t o s a y I w ill b e a b l e to a n s w e r th i s q u e s ti o n . I h a v e in f o r m e d m y s e l f s u ffi c i e n t ly t o b e a b le t o a n s w e r t h is q u e s ti o n . H o w w i ll - h o w 10 w i ll t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a v e r e c o u r s e a g a i n s t P a r a s ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir w a s t h a t l ik e - li k e I h a d tr ie d e a r l i e r to e x p l a i n . L i t i g a t io n s w o u l d o n ly b e d o n e t h r o u g h E s ti n a i f I w o u l d h a v e a p r o b l e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i n o t h e r w o r d s y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e r e c o u r s e a g a in s t P a r a s a s s u c h ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o . W e w o u ld n o t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u w o u l d h a v e r e c o u r s e a g a i n s t Es t in a ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Es t in a . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 A n d i f - a s i t d o e s a p p e a r i f - Es t i n a w a s n o t w o r t h t h e p a p e r i t w a s w r i t t e n o n t h e n i t w o u l d s p e l l d is a s t e r f o r t h e d e p a r t m e n t i n c a s e s o m e t h i n g w e n t w r o n g w i t h t h e p r o je c t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t w o u ld C h a ir - t h o u g h t h a t w o u ld h a v e m i n i m is e d i t b e c a u s e t h e m o n e y w a s c o m in g i n tr a n c h e s . S o w e w o u l d b e a b l e to p ic k u p t h a t h e r e w e h a v e a p r o b le m . L e t u s tr y a n d l it i g a t e o n w h a t e v e r th a t w e w o u l d h a v e g iv e n b u t t h e r e s t s ti ll Page 115 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 protected. CHAIRPERSON: B u t o f c o u r s e t h a t c o u ld b e a f t e r R 3 0 m il li o n h a s g o n e ? T h e f ir s t - t h e fir s t o n e I t h in k t h a t w a s s o u g h t to b e p a i d . I s i t not? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e ll ju s t t w o p o i n t s a g a i n . W e r e a l ly s til l lo o k in g a t t h a t p a g e 11 C l a u s e 6 . 2 t h e R 2 2 8 m ill i o n . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: On - on … 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W e w e r e - w e w e r e l o o k in g a t t h e a g r e e m e n t w h i c h is i n R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e A - R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e A … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d w e w e r e o n p a g e 11 a n d l o o k in g a t C l a u s e 6 . 2 w h ic h s p e a k s t o t h e 2 2 8 m il l io n a n d w h o - w h o - w h o s e r e s p o n s i b i li ty it w o u l d b e to p r o v i d e th is fu n d i n g . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : If - i f … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W i th … MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I f y o u c o u l d r e mi n d m e t h e p a g e a g a in C h a ir. 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s p a g e 11 - 1 - 1 - 11 . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 1-1? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. T h a n k s C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I - I s i m p ly m a k e t h e p o in t a n d y o u d o n o t r e a l ly h a v e to g o t o t h is p a r t ic u l a r p a g e . I t is a g a i n i n t h e r e f e r e n c e Page 116 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 b u n d l e b u t a d i ff e r e n t o n e . It is i n B . That when you responded a c c e p ti n g t h e p r o j e c t p r o p o s a l f o r t h e Vr e d e I n t e g r a t e d D a ir y A g r i B u s i n e s s y o u a d d r e s s e d y o u r l e t te r t o t h e M a n a g in g D i r e c to r Es t in a ( Pt y ) L t d G r a y s t o n R id g e O ffi c e P a r k 1 - 1 - 4 K a th e r i n e S t r e e t S a n d t o n . A t t e n t i o n : S a n j e e v G a u t a m a n d th is w a s o n 2 7 M a y 2 0 1 2 . I am simply saying it was not addressed to Estina/Paras when you were a c c e p ti n g t h e p r o j e c t p r o p o s a l. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t w a s d ir e c tl y E s ti n a . 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I - I also want to point out that in the b u s i n e s s p l a n a g a i n t h is ti m e I fo u n d a s li g h t ly b e t t e r c o p y b u t I d o n o t t h i n k i t is n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u t o g o t h e r e . I w il l s i m p l y t e ll y o u w h a t is recorded here. I t - i t is o n p a g e 3 2 3 - 2 - 5 ju s t f o r t h e r e c o r d o f t h e reports bundle - 3-2-5. Yo u h a v e t h e d a ir y p r o c e s s in g p l a n t c o s ti n g a n d w e a g r e e d t h a t t h a t 2 2 8 m i lli o n w a s f o r t h e d a ir y p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t . Are we agreed on that? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So here you have got: 20 “ F ix e d a n d w o r k i n g c a p i t a l t h e n u n i ts ’ t h e n b u d g e t v a l u e o n t h i s s c h e d u l e . U H I lo n g l if e m il k p l a n t 1 4 9 m il li o n . D a ir y p r o d u c ts m a n u f a c t u r in g 4 6 m il li o n . I P m a r k e t i n g c a p i t a l r e q u ir e m e n t fiv e m il li o n . To t a l f u n d i n g r e q u i r e d 2 0 0 m il li o n . ” T h i s is th e i m p o r t a n t p a r t . Page 117 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 “ To b e f u n d e d b y E s t in a - 2 0 0 m il li o n . ” T h a t is w h a t is w r i t t e n o n th e b u s i n e s s p la n . It is n o t E s ti n a / P a r a s - Es t in a a n d th is is a b u s i n e s s p la n t h a t E s t i n a w o u l d h a v e p r e s e n t e d t o y o u . It i s t h e b u s in e s s p la n y o u h a v e b e e n w o r k in g w i t h I b e l ie v e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja, ja. C h a ir th r o u g h o u t l e t t e r s a n d p r e s e n t a ti o n w e h a v e b e e n i n t e r c h a n g e a b ly u s i n g E s ti n a a n d P a r a s . S o m e in s ta n c e s w e w il l s a y E s ti n a / P a r a s . w e w il l o n ly r e fe r t o E s ti n a . 10 T h e r e a r e in s t a n c e s w h e r e S o t h a t h a s b e e n h a p p e n in g th r o u g h o u t . N o t c o n s is t e n t ly - b e c a u s e o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t r e f e r r in g t o b o t h o f t h e m a t th e s a m e ti m e w a s t h e s a m e t h i n g . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u s e e t h a t w o r r i e s m e Mr T h a b e t h e b e c a u s e i t m a y b e a n i n d ic a ti o n t h a t y o u d id n o t h a v e t h e a p p r e c i a ti o n o f t h e d is t in c ti o n t h a t n e e d e d t o b e m a d e b e t w e e n t h e t w o . Yo u - y o u a r e t a lk in g t o Es t in a . Yo u e n t e r - e n t e r i n g in t o a n a g r e e m e n t t h a t s a y s y o u are entering into an agreement with Estina. That does not say you are e n t e r in g i n t o a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h P a r a s . That does not say you are entering into an agreement with E s ti n a a n d P a r a s b u t d e s p i te th e f a c t t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t i n b l a c k a n d 20 w h i te s a y s t h e - th e p a r t ie s t o t h i s a g r e e m e n t is E s ti n a a n d th e d e p a r t m e n t a n d d o e s n o t m e n t io n th a t P a r a s i s - is a p a r ty to i t. Yo u c o n ti n u e d t o o p e r a t e a s i f w h a t i s w r it t e n h e r e is t h a t P a r a s is a ls o a p a r t y. Yo u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o th e r w o r d s y o u - y o u h a v e g o t t o - i f y o u h a v e g o t Page 118 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 s o m e in f o r m a l d is c u s s i o n b e fo r e t h e s i g n i n g o f a n a g r e e m e n t a s to w h a t is g o in g to h a p p e n . W h e n t h e d r a f t a g r e e m e n t c o m e s y o u h a v e g o t t o c h e c k w h e th e r i t r e fl e c ts w h a t h a d b e e n d is c u s s e d i n f o r m a lly b u t a p a r t fr o m th a t y o u a ls o n e e d to s a y i n t e r m s o f t h is a g r e e m e n t w h o o w e s th e d e p a r t m e n t w h a t o b l i g a t io n a n d if t h e a g r e e m e n t s a y s i t is E s t i n a y o u h a v e n o t g r o u n d s t o g o to P a r a s . Yo u s e e ? W h a t y o u m a y h a v e h a d i n m in d h a d t o b e tr a n s l a t e d i n t o a n agreement but the agreement here we are talking about does not place a n y o b l i g a t io n s o n P a r a s . P l a c e s o b li g a ti o n s o n ly o n E s ti n a . 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o in o t h e r w o r d s I a m s i m p l y s a y i n g e v e n w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g c o n c e r n s m e b e c a u s e i t m a y r e fl e c t t h a t y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e h a d t h a t a p p r e c i a ti o n w h ic h I t h i n k w a s q u i te i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e y o u h a d t h i s o b li g a ti o n t o p r o t e c t t h e d e p a r t m e n t fr o m r is k s a n d t h e p r o t e c t t h e t a x p a y e r s m o n e y. Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . I - I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n very well. Hm … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I a m s a y in g th e fa c t t h a t y o u s a y P a r a s / Es t in a y o u s a y i t is o n e a n d th e s a m e t h i n g w h e n f o r e x a m p le i n t h e a g r e e m e n t 20 t h a t y o u - y o u a r e s i g n i n g o r y o u h a v e s ig n e d i t d o e s n o t s a y i t is o n e a n d t h e s a m e t h in g . T h e r e is o n ly E s ti n a a s a p a r ty o n t h e E s t i n a o t h e r t h a n th e d e p a r t m e n t in c a s e o b l ig a ti o n s b y v ir tu e o f t h e a g r e e m e n t . Yo u k n o w ? It is - i t is c o n c e r n in g . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir. d is p u te C h a ir. Page 119 of 194 I - I agree. I - I do not 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a c c e p t t h a t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B u t C h a ir I w a s s tr o n g ly a d v is e d - s tr o n g ly a d v i s e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I th in k t h e r e - th e r e is a n u m b e r o f le t t e r s w e h a v e r e a d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h a t t h e in s ta n c e w h e r e w e h a d brought the two together … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W a s il le g a l . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Now - now I am - I am in a corner C h a ir b e c a u s e I h a d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To a g r e e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I n i ti a l ly. N o w I a g r e e w i th t h e C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t i s my d i ff ic u l t y b e c a u s e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h e n I w a s e a r li e r a d v i s e d … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t o o k th a t a d v ic e . Page 120 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Th e C h a ir p e r s o n is p u t t in g it d i ff e r e n t ly … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Fr o m w h a t I w a s a d v is e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is ( i n t e r v e n e s ) . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d y o u s e e t h a t w a y a s w e ll ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I s e e a ls o t h a t w a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d a g r e e w i th t h e C h a ir. S o t h a t is why I say … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m i n a c o r n e r C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. N o , n o t h a t is fi n e b u t I - I ju s t w a n te d y o u t o h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t is g o i n g o n in m y m i n d . S o th a t y o u c o u l d c o m m e n t o n it . 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k - t h a n k s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u M r T h a b e th e . I th i n k w e s h o u l d m o v e o n to p a r a g r a p h 6 . 3 o f t h a t a g r e e m e n t o n p a g e 11 a n d i t r e c o r d s t h e f o l lo w i n g : “ E s ti n a e n s u r e d t h a t … ” Page 121 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. A r e y o u g o i n g b a c k - a r e y o u going to the agreement? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To t h e a g r e e m e n t C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: The agreement? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir m a n . P a g e 11 … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I … ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Of Reference Bundle A. CHAIRPERSON: O h , o k a y. I have got it here. Th a n k y o u . What - what page are you on now? 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a g e 11 . C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 , o k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S t il l o n 11 C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: We are looking at 6.3 - Clause 6.3. “ E s ti n a e n s u r e d t h a t th e b e n e fi c i a r ie s o w n e d 5 1 p e r c e n t o f t h e a g r i- B E E e n t i ty. T h e r e m a in in g s h a r e s b e l o n g s to E s t in a p r o v i d e d t h a t s h o u ld E s ti n a d e c i d e t o s e ll i ts s h a r e s t h e d e p a r t m e n t w i ll h a v e t h e r i g h t o f f ir s t r e fu s a l . ” 20 N o w th e o n l y r e f e r e n c e I w a n t t o m a k e h e r e is a g a i n t o t h e b u s i n e s s p la n a n d I m a k e t h is r e f e r e n c e i n th e c o n t e x t o f w h a t y o u s a y y o u w e r e a d v i s e d t o d o . Ta k e a lo n g t e r m v ie w r a t h e r t h a n a s h o r t t e r m v ie w o f w h e n th e b e n e fi c i a r i e s s h o u l d b e in c l u d e d . T h e b u s in e s s p l a n o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 a t p a g e - i t is t h e r e p o r t s b u n d le a g a i n . J u s t f o r th e r e c o r d . R e p o r ts b u n d l e p a g e 3 - 2 - 7 n o t e s t h e f o l lo w in g u n d e r n e t p r o fi t . Page 122 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 D o y o u w a n t to p i c k i t u p ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I am happy to wait. S o i t i s r e p o r ts bundle … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( In d is ti n c t) . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u n d l e B - R e p o r ts B u n d l e B - R e p o r t s Bundle B. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : R e p o r ts b u n d l e . O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h is is p a g e 3 - 2 - 7 . I j u s t w a n t t o r e a d 10 t h e fi r s t t w o s e n t e n c e s to g i v e c o n te x t. T h is is w h a t E s ti n a w r o t e . “ I t w o u l d ta k e 1 2 t o 1 4 m o n t h s fo r t h e d a ir y t o b e c o m e o p e r a t io n a l . ” S o th a t i s m o r e t h a n a y e a r. T h e s e c o n d p o i n t : “ T h i s w o u ld r e s u l t i n a lo s s o f 8 . 4 8 m il li o n i n 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 a n d 1 .8 3 m il li o n i n 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 . ” S o t h e r e a r e tw o i s s u e s h e r e a n d I r e a l ly s p e a k h e r e i n r e l a ti o n t o th a t 5 1 p e r c e n t o f t h e a g r i- B E E t h a t C l a u s e 6 . 3 r e f e r s t o . S o o n e , E s ti n a i t s e l f s a y s ju s t s e t ti n g u p t h e d a ir y s id e is g o in g t o t a k e m o r e t h a n a y e a r - 1 2 t o 1 4 m o n th s . 20 Th e s e c o n d p o i n t th e y m a k e is t h e r e w i ll n o t b e a n y m o n e y i n a n y e v e n t b e c a u s e t h e y f o r e s e e a l o s s o f - i n t h e fi r s t y e a r 8 . 4 8 m i lli o n . T h a t i s i n t h e y e a r 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 a n d th e n 1 .8 3 m il li o n in t h e year 2013/2014. So f o r a n i n v e s t m e n t t h a t b e n e fi c i a r i e s were in tr o d u c e d to in 2 0 1 3 th e y g e t t o 2 0 1 4 a n d t h e c o m p a n y is s ti ll m a k i n g a l o s s a c c o r d i n g to t h i s b u s i n e s s p l a n . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u h a v e a n y Page 123 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 c o m m e n t to m a k e b e c a u s e I a m a l i g n in g w h a t I a m r e a d i n g in t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n to y o u r in t e n t io n a s s e t o u t in C la u s e 6 . 3 o f t h e agreement. Yo u w e r e tr y i n g t o b e n e fi t b e n e fic i a r i e s b y 5 1 p e r c e n t s h a r e h o l d in g i n th e c o m p a n y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . T h a n k - t h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h is t h is is a n o r m a l c o s t i n - i n b u s in e s s o p e r a t io n s p e c i f ic a l ly i n a g r ic u lt u r e . Yo u d o y o u r c a s h fl o w a n d y o u in v e s t. Yo u t h e n c a l c u l a t e w h a t w e n o r m a ll y c a ll y o u r b r e a k e v e n w h e r e y o u s t a r t m a k in g p r o f it . T h i s - t h i s s t a t e m e n t is a c tu a l ly s a y in g in th e fir s t t h r e e y e a r s y o u 10 w o u ld n o t b e m a k i n g a p r o fi t b u t y o u w o u l d h a v e in v e s t e d m o n e y. Yo u w il l t h e n b e g in in t h e fo u r t h y e a r t o g e t t o w h a t w e c a ll a break even. Yo u b e g i n t o m a k e p r o f i t . It means you invest - that is w h y i t s a y s t h e r e y o u a r e m a k i n g a l o s s b e c a u s e th a t m o n e y is n o t c o m i n g b a c k b u t t h e n y o u g e t t o a b r e a k e v e n w h e r e y o u - y o u e q u a l. T h e n b e y o n d a b r e a k e v e n t h e n y o u a r e m a k i n g p r o f i t. N o r m a ll y w h e n y o u d o - t h a t is w h e n - w h e n y o u a p p ly t h e b a n k w i ll t e l l y o u w e n e e d to s e e y o u r c a s h fl o w. Yo u r in v e s t m e n t v e r s u s y o u r r e t u r n s . W h e n a r e y o u g o in g t o b e g in t o g e t y o u r r e t u r n s ? N o w t h is is w h a t t h is s t a t e m e n t i s r e f e r r i n g 20 t o . I t i s n o t - i t is n o t n e c e s s a r i ly s a y i n g y o u a r e lo s i n g m o n e y. I t is s a y in g y o u a r e n o t m a k i n g in c o m e . Yo u a r e s ti ll a t th e i n v e s t m e n t s t a g e o f y o u r p r o j e c t . T h a t - t h a t i s w h a t i t i s r e f e r r in g to . CHAIRPERSON: S o r e m e m b e r t h a t w h a t e v e r m o n e y y o u h a v e p u t in you want to get it back. Is it not? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Page 124 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w i f y o u - i f t h is p r o j e c t w a s g o in g to l o s e t h a t k i n d o f m o n e y is i t i n th e fir s t t h r e e y e a r s o r t w o y e a r s t h a t - is it 8 4 mi ll i o n ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : U p t o - u p t o 2 0 1 4 C h a ir m a n . S o i t i s … C H A I R P E R S O N : U p t o 2 0 1 4 . T h a t is l ik e … A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t i s a b o u t r o u g h ly 1 0 m il li o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja. To g e t t o a p o in t w h e r e y o u m a k e e n o u g h p r o f i t t o b e e n jo y e d b y s o m a n y b e n e fic ia r i e s a f te r h a v i n g r e c o u p e d w h a t y o u p u t in . H o w l o n g w o u ld i t t a k e o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t o f t h is p r o j e c t ? 10 When would they - when would the b e n e fic i a r i e s s t a r t to r e a l ly b e n e f i t t o s e e t h e - t h e f in a n c ia l b e n e f it s ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A c t u a ll y C h a ir i n t h e fo u r t h y e a r. CHAIRPERSON: The fourth year? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In t h e f o u r th y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w o u ld b e 2 0 1 6 ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. If I may put another … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A d i ffe r e n t e x a m p le C h a ir. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t is l ik e w h e n y o u g o a n d y o u b u y a tr e e . CHAIRPERSON: What? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A tr e e - f r u i t tr e e . CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh. Page 125 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Yo u b u y t h e tr e e . Yo u b u y f e r t il is e r. Yo u d i g a h o l e a n d y o u p l a n t t h e tr e e . Yo u h a v e i n c u r r e d c o s t s . Yo u w a i t f o r a p e r io d o f t h r e e y e a r s f o r th a t tr e e t o b e a r fr u i ts b u t e v e r y y e a r y o u w a te r th e t r e e . Yo u a r e n o t g e t ti n g a n y m o n e y b e c a u s e y o u h a v e n o t s e e n a n y fr u i t o u t o f t h e tr e e . T h e n y o u w a t e r it . Yo u l o o k a ft e r it . A ll th e ti m e k n o w i n g th a t t h is tr e e y o u a r e g o i n g to h a v e it fo r t h e n e x t 3 0 y e a r s . Yo u b e g in t o h a r v e s t fr u i ts in t h e f ir s t y e a r a n d th e n y o u r c o s t m i g h t c o m e m a y b e i n th e s ix t h o r s e v e n t h y e a r t o c o v e r th e 10 cost that you have spent … C H A I R P E R S O N : O v e r ti m e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To p l a n t t h e tr e e . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o w th a t i s w h a t w e c a l l … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h e n y o u b e g i n t o e a r n p r o f it fr o m t h e p r o j e c t . N o w a d a i r y h a s a s h o r t e r te r m t h a n a tr e e . O v e r a p e r i o d o f three years then you - you can be able - because you - you begin 20 a lr e a d y i n t h e s e c o n d a n d th e t h ir d y e a r t o - t o r e c e iv e a n i n c o m e b u t i t is n o t c o v e r i n g y o u r c o s t y e t . A f t e r th e t h ir d y e a r t h e n y o u c o v e r y o u r cost. T h e n y o u b e in g to m a k e p r o fi t in t h e f o u r t h y e a r. N o w t h is is w h a t th is is s a y in g . I t m e a n s y o u - y o u - u n f o r tu n a t e ly i n th e a g r ic u lt u r e y o u h a v e to b e p a t ie n t a n d w a i t u n ti l y o u g e t t h e fr u it s o f Page 126 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 your investment. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o w w a s t h is e x p l a n a ti o n g i v e n t o t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s w h e n y o u e n g a g e d w i th t h e m a b o u t t h is d a ir y p r o j e c t th a t y o u w e r e i n v i ti n g t h e m t o b e p a r t o f ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I - I b e li e v e s o C h a ir. We had - we h a d e x p l a i n e d . A ll th e d e t a i ls w e h a d e x p l a i n e d t o t h e m . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t is n o t t h e - m y r e c o ll e c ti o n o f t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s w h o c a m e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e th is Commission. 10 T h e y i n f a c t a s s u m e d t h a t t h e y w o u ld n o t o n ly b e b e n e fic i a r i e s b u t t h e y w o u l d a c t u a l ly e v e n fi n d e m p lo y m e n t a t t h e d a ir y f a r m . S o th e i r e x p e c t a ti o n w a s th e y w o u l d b e in v o lv e d fr o m i n c e p t io n . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir, w e - w e h a d e x p l a in e d i t I t h i n k v e r y c l e a r l y. Ye s in d e e d t h e c o m m u n i ty w o u l d g e t e m p l o y m e n t i n th e in t h e p r o je c t b u t th e e m p h a s is o n th e b e n e f ic i a r i e s w a s fo r t h e m a l s o t o h a v e t h e i r o w n c a t t le b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e fa r m e r s a t t h e ir o w n r ig h t b e c a u s e i f - i t w o u l d m e a n t h e y w il l l e a v e t h e ir f a r m s . C o m e a n d w o r k a t t h e d a i r y. T h a t - th a t w a s n o t t h e i n t e n ti o n . W e d i d e x p l a in th a t t h e - th e p r o je c t w il l c r e a t e j o b o p p o r t u n i ti e s fo r t h e c o m m u n i ty b u t t h e ir p l a n w a s a ls o r o ll e d o u t t o 20 t h e m . H e n c e t h e y h a d a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e y w ill a ls o b e a ll o c a t e d d a ir y c a t tl e t h a t th e y w i ll l o o k a f t e r a n d b e a b l e t o s e ll t h e ir m i lk . S o t h e y - o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t t h e y u n d e r s t o o d i t v e r y w e l l . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: is s u e - th e Phumelela C h a ir m a n I a m m o v i n g o n t o t h e l a n d Local M u n ic i p a l it y department representing province. Page 127 of 194 a g r e e m e n ts with the 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t is f i n e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I a ls o n o tic e d t h a t - o h , m y w a tc h is a b i t f a s t I t h i n k . I t is f iv e to o n e . D o y o u w a n t u s t o j u s t s t a r t w i th w h a t w e h a v e C h a ir m a n ? C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e l e t u s s t a r t . I s t h a t c o n v e n ie n t t o y o u ? A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is f in e … CHAIRPERSON: Ja. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B e c a u s e i t i s r e a l ly j u s t d e a l in g w i t h t h e … 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e a g r e e m e n ts … C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, j a . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f t h a t ti m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o Mr T h a b e t h e w h e n y o u s i g n e d t h e a g r e e m e n ts w i th E s t i n a o n 5 J u n e 2 0 1 2 - w e k n o w th a t w a s fo u n d to b e in v a li d - a n d th e n o n 5 J u ly 2 0 1 2 h a d y o u s e c u r e d la n d i n t h e P h u m e l e la L o c a l M u n i c i p a li t y ? T h e d a te s a r e i m p o r t a n t . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 C h a ir, w e - w e h a d s p o k e n w it h t h e m u n i c i p a li t y b u t w e h a d n o t fo r m a l is e d th e - t h e f o r m a lis a ti o n w a s w h a t - w h a t c a m e l a t e r b u t w e h a d a l r e a d y - th e y h a d a l r e a d y i n d ic a t e d t o u s that they had no problem. W e h a d s p o k e n t o b o th t h e m u n ic i p a l i ty - a c t u a ll y a n d - a n d t h e c o m m u n i ty w e h a d a lr e a d y s p o k e n t o th e m in c l u d i n g t h e f a r m e r s t h a t w e r e l e a s i n g t h e l a n d . We had had d i s c u s s io n with Page 128 of 194 them and they were no 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 o b j e c ti o n s . H e n c e w e th e n p r o c e e d e d . W e - w e h a d s p o k e n b u t w e w e t h e n h a d t o f o r m a li s e a l l t h o s e a g r e e m e n t s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e r e a s o n I s a i d t h e d a t e s a r e i m p o r t a n t is b e c a u s e o n o u r r e c o r d y o u r p r e s e n t a ti o n t o t h e P h u m e le l a L o c a l M u n i c i p a li t y w a s o n 1 2 J u n e 2 0 1 2 . N o w t h a t f ir s t a g r e e m e n t th a t h a d g iv e n r i s e t o t h o s e o b li g a t io n s w a s o n 5 J u n e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: i m p o r t a n t. 10 A n d t h is i s w h y I s a i d th e d a t e s a r e So maybe we can agree. W h e n y o u s ig n e d t h e fi r s t a g r e e m e n t o n 5 J u n e y o u h a d n o t b e e n to t h e m u n ic i p a l i ty y e t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: W e - w e h a d b e e n i n t a lk in g t e r m s w i t h t h e m u n ic ip a l i ty b u t w e h a d n o t o ffi c ia ll y w e n t t o p r e s e n t t o t h e council. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d is i t n o t c o r r e c t t h a t i t is t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n t o t h e c o u n c i l t h a t w o u l d g i v e r i s e to l e g a l o b l ig a ti o n s . N o t t a lk i n g t o o ff ic i a ls o n t h e t e l e p h o n e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir m y - m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t t h e - t h e m u n i c i p a li t y h a d a g r e e d a ll t h a t t h e y n e e d e d to d o w a s to f o r m a l is e th r o u g h a c o u n c i l r e s o l u ti o n b e c a u s e w e - w e w a n te d t o h a v e 20 that as - as part of our documentation. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h a t d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t o b e th e i m p o r t a n c e o f c o u n c i l m e e t in g to t a k e a r e s o l u ti o n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C a n - c a n s h e r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n C h a ir ? CHAIRPERSON: W h a t - w h a t d o y o u t h i n k is t h e s ig n i f ic a n c e o f a Page 129 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 c o u n c i l r e s o l u ti o n ? I t h i n k t h a t i s a n o th e r w a y o f p u tt i n g i t . What is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e i m p o r ta n c e o f m u n ic i p a l it y - m u n ic i p a l c o u n c i l ta k i n g a r e s o l u ti o n o n a m a t t e r a s o p p o s e d to j u s t t a l k i n g a n d n o t t a k i n g a r e s o lu t io n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir is t h a t if - i f t h e y h a v e t a k e n a r e s o l u ti o n i t m e a n s t h e y h a v e t a k in g a b in d i n g a g r e e m e n t a s - a s a c o u n c il t o s a y th is i s w h a t w e a g r e e w i t h . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d th is is w h y I a s k t h e q u e s ti o n focusing on what you did on 5 June where you entered into an 10 a g r e e m e n t w i t h a p a r ty - s o - w h i c h a g r e e m e n t g a v e r is e t o l e g a l o b li g a ti o n s . M y q u e s ti o n w a s w h e n y o u b o u n d y o u r d e p a r t m e n t to E s ti n a o n 5 J u n e h a d y o u b e e n t o t h e P h u m e l e l a M u n ic i p a l i ty - l o c a l m u n i c i p a li t y t o p r e s e n t a c a s e f o r t h e Vr e d e P r o j e c t t o b e b a s e d i n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r m u n i c i p a l it y ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir w e - w e h a d s p o k e n t o t h e m u n i c i p a li t y e x c e p t - b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e t w o o p ti o n s t h e y c o u ld d e c id e o n . W h e th e r th e y w il l t a b l e t h e it e m t h e m s e l v e s o r th e y w il l r e q u e s t u s t o c o m e a n d m a k e a p r e s e n t a ti o n to t h e c o u n c il . I t d e p e n d s h o w t h e y w o u ld h a v e fe l t b u t w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d t h e y w a n te d u s a ls o to c o m e a n d 20 m a k e a p r e s e n ta t io n t o t h e c o u n c il w h ic h - w h ic h th e y d i d . O u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s t h a t i f t h e y u n d e r s t o o d th e p r o je c t t h e y w o u l d h a v e d is c u s s e d i t i n th e ir c o u n c i l w it h o u t u s b u t i n th is in s t a n c e t h e y p r e f e r r e d th a t w e s h o u ld c o m e a n d m a k e a p r e s e n ta t io n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Now we have the evidence of Dr Radebe w h o w a s a c o u n c i l m e m b e r a t t h e t i m e a n d h e c o n fir m s t h a t y o u r Page 130 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s n o t a n i te m o n t h e a g e n d a fo r t h a t c o u n c il m e e ti n g . S o m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h a t e v i d e n c e is h e c e r t a i n ly w a s s u r p r is e d w h e n y o u a r r i v e d . T h e y h a d n o i d e a th a t y o u w o u l d b e c o m i n g t o d o a p r e s e n t a ti o n o n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r d a y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir I c a n n o t c o m m e n t b e c a u s e w e w e r e i n v i te d . I - I w o u l d n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e y k n e w o r t h e y d i d n o t k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I g u e s s t h a t w h a t y o u s h o u l d t e l l m e is h o w i t c a m e a b o u t t h a t y o u w e n t t o m a k e t h a t p r e s e n t a ti o n . 10 Who spoke to w h o t o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts a n d s o o n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h a n k - t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I - I had b e e n i n s is ti n g to t h e m u n ic i p a li ty m o r e s o t o t h e M a y o r t h a t w e n e e d e d a c o u n c i l r e s o l u t i o n a n d t h e n I w a s a d v is e d b y th e M a y o r th a t t h e y w il l b e h a v in g a c o u n c il . I f w e c o u l d c o m e a n d m a k e a p r e s e n ta t io n to t h e c o u n c i l . T h e n - t h e n w e w e n t t h e r e t o m a k e th a t p r e s e n ta t io n b e c a u s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W e h a v e b e e n i n s is ti n g th a t w e n e e d a resolution. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Now the Mayor was Mr John Motaung? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d h e g a v e y o u t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e r e w a s n o d i ff ic u l ty i n s i m p ly a r r iv i n g o n a d a y th a t t h e r e w a s a s c h e d u le d c o u n c i l m e e t in g a n d d o in g t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e ? Page 131 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir I d id n o t n o k n o w w h a t k i n d o f a council it - it was. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A l l I k n e w w a s th a t w e w e r e i n v i t e d to come and … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : M a k e a p r e s e n t a ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 When the former Municipal Manager of P h u m e l e la L o c a l M u n i c i p a l it y g a v e e v i d e n c e a t t h is C o m m i s s i o n h e g a v e t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e Vr e d e D a i r y F a r m a n d t h e e n tir e t o w n o f Vr e d e a n d T h e m b a li h l e To w n s h ip w e r e o n e th i n g . S o t h e t o w n a n d t h e t o w n s h i p e v e n t h e c e m e te r i e s a r e o n t h is f a r m . D o y o u k n o w a n y th i n g about this? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir t h e y l a te r c a m e b a c k t o u s a n d in d i c a t e d t o u s t h a t t h e r e w a s a - a p r o b l e m t o th e - t h e l a n d i s s u e . S o t h e y d id m a k e u s a w a r e . S o w h e n w e a ls o w e n t b a c k t o l o o k a t - a t th e p a p e r s w e r e a lis e d th a t th a t i n d e e d w a s a c h a ll e n g e b u t w e - w e h a d a g r e e d b e t w e e n u s a n d t h e n t h a t w e s h o u ld t h e n r e s o lv e th a t a n d 20 r e l e a s e t h a t p a r t b a c k t o t h e m u n i c i p a l it y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o w i t w o u ld b e u s e f u l i f y o u g a v e u s s o m e d a te s fo r th is p a r t th a t y o u h a v e j u s t t e s ti fi e d t o . W h e n is i t th a t y o u b e c a m e a w a r e t h a t t h e e n t ir e t o w n s a t o n t h e 4 4 0 0 h e c t a r e s t h a t y o u w e r e p r e p a r i n g t o l e a s e t o Es t in a ? W h e n d i d y o u s t a r t a t t e n d in g to t h a t m a t te r ? W h e n w a s i t r e s o l v e d ? Page 132 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir I w i ll n o t e x a c t ly r e m e m b e r t h e d a t e s w h e n b u t i t - i t w a s a lr e a d y d u r i n g t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n p a r t th a t w a s b r o u g h t in t o o u r - o u r a tt e n ti o n a n d w e d id n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m . A c tu a l ly w h e n - w h e n t h e y r a i s e d th a t th e y a l s o a l e r t e d t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s o f t h is m a t t e r w h i c h w e a g r e e d w o u ld n o t h a v e a p r o b le m i n m a k i n g s u r e th a t th a t i s c o r r e c te d C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So in December 2012 when you signed t h a t a g r e e m e n t o f c e s s i o n a n d a s s i g n m e n t w i t h Mr M o r e m i w e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e b e in g a s s i g n e d - w h a t w a s b e i n g c e d e d t o 10 y o u w a s t h e e n t ir e to w n o f Vr e d e c e m e t e r i e s a n d a ll ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o I w a s n o t a w a r e C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: No. O t h e r w is e w e w o u l d h a v e t a k e n t h e r e s p o n s i b il it y o f t h e m u n ic i p a li ty t h a t is w h a t i t w o u ld a c t u a l ly mean. CHAIRPERSON: I th i n k we should then adjourn for lunch Ms Gcabashe. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you. Thank you Chairman. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w i ll a d j o u r n f o r l u n c h a n d w e w ill r e s u m e a t t w o . 20 We adjourn. R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: B e f o r e w e p r o c e e d , l e t ’s s e e w h e t h e r w e h a v e t h e s a m e i d e a o f w h a t i s li k e ly t o h a p p e n t h is a ft e r n o o n , Ms G c a b a s h e Page 133 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 w h a t ’s y o u r e s ti m a t e o f w h e th e r w e w i ll fi n is h t o d a y o r n o t a n d I w a n t t o a ls o c h e c k w h e t h e r, i f w e a r e n o t g o i n g t o f in is h t o d a y w h e th e r t h e r e ’s a c h a n c e t h a t w e c o u ld g o o v e r to t o m o r r o w o r w h e t h e r e v e r y b o d y c o n c e r n e d w o u l d b e a v a i l a b le ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a i r m a n I b e l ie v e w e s h o u l d b e d o n e b e t w e e n fo u r a n d f o u r t h i r t y. CHAIRPERSON: Fo u r a n d fo u r t h ir ty ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s , I t h i n k w i t h i n th e n o r m a l ti m e . Ye s , i f w e a r e n o t d o n e b y t h e n d i d y o u h a v e t o m o r r o w a v a il a b l e in c a s e w e d o n ’ t f in is h t o d a y o r w h a t – in t e r m s o f t h e t i m e t a b le I d o n ’ t s e e w h a t’s s u p p o s e d t o b e th e r e f o r t o m o r r o w, d o you know? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I ’ m n o t s u r e C h a ir m a n b u t I’ m n o t a v a i la b le t o m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t a v a il a b l e t o m o r r o w ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: CHAIRPERSON: I’ m n o t a v a il a b l e t o m o r r o w. O h n o w I r e m e m b e r th a t y o u ’r e n o t a v a il a b l e fr o m t o m o r r o w s o t o m o r r o w i s o u t o f t h e q u e s t io n , b e c a u s e y o u w o n t b e a v a i la b le . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t C h a ir m a n I’ m v e r y s u r e t h a t w e ’r e g o i n g t o f i n is h . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w e ll I w i ll s e e w h a t h a p p e n s b y w h a t t h e s i tu a ti o n i s b y t h e ti m e w e r e a c h t h e p o i n t w h e r e y o u h a v e e x h a u s t e d y o u r q u e s ti o n s , I m a y w a n t to h a v e m o r e ti m e t o a s k c e r ta i n q u e s t i o n s m y s e l f , t h a t m i g h t n o t – w e m i g h t n o t h a v e e n o u g h ti m e t o d o th a t t h is Page 134 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 a ft e r n o o n b u t w e – m a y b e a t th e t i m e t h a t y o u a r e d o n e , I c o u ld s e e t h e le g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s in c h a m b e r s t o ta lk a b o u t w h a t is p o s s ib l e a n d w h a t i s n o t p o s s ib l e a n d t h e n w e ’l l t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . O k a y y o u h e a r d t h a t M r Th a b e t h e a n d I k n o w y o u r l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e s a ls o h e a r d i t , o k a y a lr ig h t , l e t’s c o n t in u e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Th a n k y o u C h a i r m a n . Mr T h a b e t h e w e w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e p u r c h a s i n g o f – n o t h e s e s s i o n a n d a s s ig n m e n t o f t h e P h u m e le la L o c a l M u n ic ip a li ty l a n d f o r t h e d a ir y f a r m . Maybe I s h o u l d a s k y o u th is q u e s t i o n , w h o s e l e c t e d Vr e d e a s th e b e s t l o c a l i ty 10 f o r t h e d a ir y fa r m ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Thank you C h a ir, th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o n t h e a v a i la b i li ty o f t h e l a n d w a s t h e M E C t h a t in d i c a t e d to u s t h a t M u n ic i p a li ty i n Vr e d e d o e s h a v e la n d th a t w e c o u l d t h e n ta lk to t h e m a n d s e e i f t h e y c o u l d m a k e i t a v a i la b le . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h o is t h is M E C y o u r e fe r t o ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I t ’s M E C M o s e b e n z i Z w a n e b e c a u s e Vr e d e w a s h is l o c a li ty s o h e k n e w … [ in t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Th a t ’s w h e r e h e g r e w u p . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s w h e r e h e g r e w u p . Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: In f a c t y o u h a d a c c o m p a n ie d h i m t o Vr e d e t o s p e a k t o t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s , h a d y o u n o t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. H o w m a n y t i m e s d id y o u v is i t Vr e d e w i t h MEC Zwane? Page 135 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir o n t h is s p e c i f ic p r o j e c t , I c o u ld r e m e m b e r I th in k a b o u t t h r e e ti m e s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d w h e n y o u w e n t to t h e p r e s e n t a t i o n a t t h e c o u n c il o ffi c e s o n t h e 1 2 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 2 w a s h e i n y o u r c o m p a n y or did he join you at any point in time? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll . N o h e w a s n ’ t t h e r e C h a ir, i f I T h e r e w a s a m e n t i o n th a t h e w o u l d jo i n b u t h e didn’t join. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 I m i g h t a s w e ll a s k , y o u h a v e in d ic a t e d t h a t y o u v is it e d t h e f a r m a n u m b e r o f t i m e s , t h e P r e m ie r, t h e t h e n P r e m i e r, M r A c e M a g a s h u l e v is it e d t h e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m , w e r e y o u p a r t o f t h a t d e l e g a t io n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I’ m tr y in g to th i n k C h a ir ; I t h i n k I w a s … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: I t ’s b e e n a lo n g t i m e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ja I think I was there. D o y o u r e c a l l w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f th a t v is it w a s ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 C h a ir w h e n h e v is i t e d th e f a r m , i t w a s a lr e a d y w h e n w e h a d p r o b l e m s , h e j u s t t h e n w a n te d t o g o a n d s e e if i n d e e d th e r e w a s a p r o j e c t b e c a u s e t h e in i ti a l p r o b le m s w a s li k e , there was nothing and money had been spent. So he wanted to go and s e e w h e t h e r th e r e w a s a p r o j e c t in d e e d , w h ic h t h e n I a c c o m p a n i e d , i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll c h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d w h e n y o u a c c o m p a n i e d t h e P r e m ie r Page 136 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 o n a v is i t l ik e th a t , w h a t w o u l d y o u r r o le b e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: M r r e s p o n s i b i li ty w a s t o r e s p o n d t o q u e s t io n s o n s i t e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W o u l d y o u h a v e t h e C h ie f D ir e c to r S e r v ic e s t h e r e , w o u ld y o u h a v e E x te n s io n O ff ic e r s th e r e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h a t w o u l d b e , C h a ir, a r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t th e r e s h o u l d b e s o m e b o d y in t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o b e a b l e t o r e s p o n d t o a ll th e q u e s t io n s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 A r e y o u s a y i n g i f y o u w e r e n o t a b le t o a tt e n d , t h e y w o u l d b e th e r e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: f I was not able even to answer some o f t h e q u e s ti o n s , s o t h e y w o u l d b e t h e r e t o r e s p o n d to . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Th e t e c h n ic a l e x p e r tis e t h a t w a s b r o u g h t t o t h e f a r m , d id y o u h a v e a s e n s e o f w h a t t h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Yo u m e a n , C h a ir th r o u g h y o u , th e p e o p l e th a t w e r e b r o u g h t ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W e ll y o u k n o w t h e d o c u m e n t s h e r e s p e a k o f t e c h n ic a l e x p e r t is e a n d w e k n o w t h a t Es t in a k n e w n o t h in g a b o u t – a s a c o m p a n y w a s n o t a n a g r i c u l tu r a l c o m p a n y, s o I’ m 20 a s s u m i n g th e t e c h n ic a l e x p e r t is e w o u l d h a v e c o m e fr o m P a r a s . N o w d o y o u k n o w th e fo r m o f t h a t t e c h n ic a l e x p e r ti s e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o t e x a c tl y a l l o f t h e m C h a ir, b u t I r e m e m b e r th e r e w a s a s t a g e w h e r e t h e y h a d i n d i c a t e d t h e r e w a s a v e t o n s it e t h a t w a s b r o u g h t b u t I’ m n o r e a ll y s u r e e x a c tly w h a t e x p e r tis e o v e r a l l, I t h i n k D r M a s i t e n g w o u l d h a v e m a y b e k n o w n e x a c tl y w h a t Page 137 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 e x p e r t is e w a s o n s i t e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u k n o w I a s k e d b e c a u s e a g a i n Mr B a s s o n g a v e e v i d e n c e a n d s a id th a t w h e n t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t w a s b e i n g in s t a ll e d , h e w a s th e r e . H e w a s n o t i m p r e s s e d a t a l l w it h tw o t h i n g s , o n e , w it h t h e t h r e e I n d i a n N a t i o n a ls w h o w e r e th e r e , h e s a y s t h e y r o c k e d u p w i t h o u t e v e n a s c r e w d r iv e r, th e p e o p l e w h o h a d c o m e to in s t a l l t h is p a r ti c u la r p l a n t , th a t ’s t h e o n e t h i n g a n d t h e s e c o n d w a s t h e q u a li ty o f t h e m a t e r i a l s t h a t w e r e u s e d . In my words I would say s e c o n d - h a n d m a t e r ia ls , v e r y c l o s e t o s c r a p . D id y o u h e a r a n y t h in g a t 10 a l l a b o u t t h o s e m a t e r i a ls b e in g s u b - s t a n d a r d ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o I h a v e n ’ t C h a ir, I’ v e a ls o l is t e n e d t o h is i n te r v i e w w h e n h e m e n t i o n e d t h a t b u t n o n e o f t h e o ffi c i a l s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d c o m e t o s a y, w e h a v e a p r o b l e m , a n d t h is i s w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g o n t h e g r o u n d . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e w h a t I w a s g o i n g t o a s k is e x a c tl y w h a t y o u w a n t to a s k . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o g o a h e a d C h a ir m a n , w h i le I f in d m y agreement. CHAIRPERSON: 20 W e ll d i d y o u j u s t s a y t h a t y o u d o n ’t k n o w w h a t e x p e r t is e w a s b r o u g h t o n to t h e f a r m ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. And did you also say that you don’t know whether t h e c e s s i o n b y Mr B a s s o n th a t t h e m a t e r i a l th a t w a s b r o u g h t o n t o th e f a r m w a s n o t n e w, l o o k e d s e c o n d - h a n d a n d I t h i n k h e m a y h a v e m e n ti o n e d s o m e o f i t w a s r u s t e d , I m a y b e w r o n g , b u t h e c e r t a i n l y s a i d Page 138 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h a t t h e e q u i p m e n t t h a t w a s b r o u g h t , I t h i n k fr o m I n d i a , th a t w a s my i m p r e s s io n w a s n o t n e w m a t e r i a l, i t w a s o ld s tu ff . Yo u a r e n o t a b le to s a y w h e t h e r t h a t is tr u e o r n o t , i s t h a t s o ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o I’ m n o t a b le t o s a y C h a ir, b e c a u s e I h e a r d i t t h e fir s t ti m e w h e n h e w a s te s ti fy in g . CHAIRPERSON: G iv in g e v i d e n c e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s b u t o n t h e o c c a s i o n s w h e n y o u v is i te d t h e f a r m , d i d y o u k n o w o b s e r v e a n y e q u i p m e n t t h a t g a v e a n i n d ic a ti o n o f b e i n g 10 t o o o l d f o r a n e w f a r m , fo r a n e w p r o j e c t . Yo u k n o w s o m e ti m e s y o u c a n lo o k a t th i n g s a n d s a y j a b u t t h is p r o j e c t o n ly s t a r t e d th r e e m o n t h s a g o , t h is lo o k s li k e f iv e y e a r s o ld , t h is e q u ip m e n t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o d u r in g m y v is i t s C h a ir I h a v e n ’ t p ic k e d it u p . CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d id n ’t p i c k i t u p ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: B u t y o u c a n ’ t s a y th a t i t ’s n o t tr u e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: 20 No. N o I c a n ’t s a y. Ye s w e ll m y c o n c e r n – p a r t o f m y c o n c e r n i s t h a t t h e s iz e o f t h is p r o j e c t a n d th e m o n e y t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a s g o i n g t o p u t in t o it w e r e s u c h th a t I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t , a s h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t y o u w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d t o e s ta b lis h w h e t h e r t h e e x p e r ti s e t h a t y o u s o m u c h w a n t e d t o h a v e f r o m P a r a s w a s e x p e r ti s e t h a t c a m e o r t h a t i t d id c o m e t o t h e f a r m a n d t h a t i t ’s s o m e th i n g t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e w a n t e d t o see and also once the – at a certain stage I would have thought that Page 139 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 y o u w o u l d w a n t t o g o a n d i n s p e c t a n d s e e h o w e v e r y t h in g w a s l ik e a n d s e e t h a t e v e r y th i n g w a s a s c o n t e m p l a t e d i n t h e p l a n , y o u k n o w. T h a t i s w h a t I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d , i t s e e m s t o m e th a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t w o u ld h a v e d e s e r v e d th e a tt e n ti o n o f t h e H O D a f t e r a l l y o u h a d t a k e n a le a d i n g r o l e i n s e l li n g t h e i d e a t o t h e M u n ic i p a li ty a n d t o t h e b e n e fic i a r i e s a n d y o u ’ d t a k e n a tr ip t o I n d i a , y o u ’ d p l a y e d a le a d i n g role. S o I t h o u g h t y o u w o u ld h a v e t a k e n t h e tr o u b l e to s a y, t h e e x p e r t is e w e a r e e x p e c ti n g fr o m P a r a s fr o m I n d i a , w h e n is i t c o m i n g here, has it arrived. 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Th a n k y o u C h a ir, y e s i n d e e d th a t h a s b e e n t h e r e q u ir e m e n t a n d I t o o k i t th a t a t a c e r t a i n s ta g e t h e e x p e r t is e w a s r e q u i r e d a t d i ff e r e n t l e v e ls o f th e d e v e lo p m e n t o f th e p r o j e c t , w h ic h m e a n s d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e w o u l d th e n c o m e … [i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: A t d i ff e r e n t s t a g e s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: A t d i ff e r e n t s t a g e s o f th e p r o je c t. S o it w o u l d m e a n t h a t d u r i n g th e c o n s t r u c t i o n o f t h e d a ir y t h e r e w o u ld b e d i ff e r e n t e x p e r ti s e d u r in g t h e p r o c e s s in g p la n t , th e r e w o u l d b e d i ffe r e n t e x p e r t is e . W h a t I w o u l d a ls o w a n t to m e n t i o n w a s t h a t fo r t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n i t m e a n s th e o p e r a ti o n s it s e l f , w e h a d in d ic a t e d to t h e m 20 t h a t w e w o u l d n ’ t w a n t a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e y o u b r i n g a c o n t r a c t o r fr o m I n d ia t o c o m e a n d d o th e w o r k h e r e . W e h a d in d i c a t e d t o t h e m th a t t h e y w i ll n e e d t o d o t h a t s u b - c o n t r a c ti n g t o l o c a l p e o p l e s o t h a t y o u d o n ’t b r i n g s o m e b o d y t o c o m e a n d d o th e w o r k t h a t w e c a n d o . W h a t is c r i ti c a l i s t h a t y o u m u s t b e h e r e a n d m o n i t o r a n d m a k e s u r e th a t t h e w o r k b e i n g d o n e is w h a t y o u w a n t t o b e d o n e . Page 140 of 194 That was my 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 u n d e r s t a n d in g , C h a ir, b u t I w o u l d t h e n a g r e e w i t h y o u t h a t m y s e l f, p e r s o n a l ly, I d i d n o t g o a n d v e r if y e a c h – e v e r y s ta g e w h e n p e o p le w e r e c o m i n g to s a y, is i t i n d e e d th e p e o p l e t h a t w e e x p e c t e d th a t w e r e coming. M a y b e b e c a u s e I h a d c o n fi d e n c e t o t h e t e a m t h a t I w a s w o r k i n g w i t h b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t i f th e r e w o u l d b e a p r o b le m t h e y w il l t h e n b e a b le t o s a y, h e y w e h a v e a p r o b le m w e a r e n o t c o m f o r t a b l e w i th t h e t e a m t h a t w a s b r o u g h t a n d t h e n w e w il l t h e n t a l k to it. CHAIRPERSON: 10 Of course it may be that you might not have needed t o b e - t o p e r s o n a l ly g o t h e r e b u t m a y b e y o u c o u l d a s k f o r r e p o r ts t h a t w o u ld g i v e y o u t h e in f o r m a t io n th a t y o u n e e d e d , r e p o r t s s u c h a s w o u l d t e ll y o u w h o a r e th e p e o p l e w h o h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t in fr o m I n d i a , fr o m P a r a s , w h a t e x p e r t is e d o th e y h a v e , w h a t e x p e r i e n c e d o th e y h a v e s o t h a t y o u c a n s e e i f P a r a s i s s e n d in g y o u w h a t y o u r e a l ly n e e d o r a r e t h e y s e n d i n g y o u p e o p l e t h a t w o n ’ t g i v e y o u w h a t y o u w e r e l o o k i n g f o r, a s I s a y y o u k n o w, o n e a p p r o a c h m i g h t b e to g o t h e r e a n d h a v e a l o o k a n d t h e n a s k q u e s t io n s , s e e p e o p l e b u t a n o th e r w a y m a y b e a s H O D y o u s a y t o y o u r m a n a g e r s I w a n t a r e p o r t th a t g iv e s m e – t h a t a n s w e r s th e f o ll o w i n g q u e s t io n s a n d t h e n i f t h e y g i v e y o u t h a t a n d y o u a r e s a ti s f i e d 20 w i t h in f o r m a t io n , t h e n m a y b e t h a t ’s f i n e b u t I would expect that, at le a s t y o u w o u l d w a n t to k n o w w h o h a s a r r iv e d , b r i n g i n g w h a t e x p e r ti s e b e c a u s e t h i s is t h e e x p e r t is e th a t w e w a n t e d b u t y o u s a y, th a t p a r t y o u d i d n o t g e t to k n o w. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: N o C h a ir, I d id n o t g o i n t o th a t d e t a i l . Ye s b u t a ls o y o u d i d n ’ t a s k y o u r m a n a g e r s t o g iv e Page 141 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 y o u a r e p o r t , r e p o r t s t h a t d e a l t w i th t h a t a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: N o I h a v e n ’ t a s k e d f o r i t C h a ir. O k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: J u s t o n t h e s a m e n o te , i f y o u h a v e a lo o k a t r e f e r e n c e f i le D a n d if y o u g o t o p a g e 1 3 5 7 , t h e s e a r e r e a ll y p h o t o g r a p h s ta k e n i n A p r il o f t h e d a i r y fa r m . T h e y s t a r t fr o m p a g e 1 3 5 3 b u t I w a n t t o ta k e y o u t o p a g e 1 3 5 7 i n p a r ti c u la r. s o i t ’s r e f e r e n c e f il e D a n d t h e s e a r e p h o t o g r a p h s o f t h e p r e m i s e s in A p r il 2 0 1 9 . N o w y o u ’l l r e c a l l th a t D a w i e M a r e e c a m e to t h e c o n c lu s i o n a s d id t h e E N S o r th e 10 N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y I n v e s ti g a to r s th a t t h e r e w a s n o w a y t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s g o i n g t o g e t v a lu e f o r m o n e y fr o m t h i s p r o j e c t , y o u r e c a ll th a t , t h e v a l u e fo r m o n e y p r o p o s i ti o n , o r d o y o u w a n t m e t o g o o v e r i t w i t h y o u ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: S o r r y C h a ir i s s h e r e f e r r i n g t o t h e evidence or the… CHAIRPERSON: I th in k l e t h e r s t a r t a g a i n s o t h a t y o u – b e c a u s e I c o u l d s e e y o u … [ in t e r v e n e s ] ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , I s h o u l d h a v e w a it e d f o r y o u t o f in is h . CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s , y e s o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ar e y o u r e a d y ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s I ’ m r e a d y. R ig h t s o I w a n t u s t o l o o k a t a c o u p l e o f t h e s e p ic tu r e s , I a ls o w a n t y o u t o lo o k a t t h e m i n t h e c o n t e x t o f D a w i e M a r e e ’s evidence. H is evidence, both documented and at the C o m m i s s i o n w a s t h a t y o u d i d n o t g e t v a l u e fo r m o n e y f r o m t h is E s ti n a Page 142 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 p r o j e c t , a r e y o u w i th m e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a C h a i r, i n d e e d th e p r o je c t w a s n o t c o m p le t e d s o i t b e c o m e s d i ff ic u l t t o s a y t h e r e w a s n o v a l u e fo r m o n e y b e c a u s e i t c a m e t o a h a l t d u r in g i t ’s i m p l e m e n ta t io n . CHAIRPERSON: I u n d e r s t a n d t h e s t a t e m e n t r e l a ti n g t o v a l u e f o r m o n e y a s h a v in g b e e n b a s e d o n – a n d M s G c a b a s h e w i ll t e l l m e i f h e r u n d e r s t a n d in g i s d i ff e r e n t, a s h a v i n g b e e n b a s e d o n s a y in g , l o o k i n g a t c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t s i n te r ms o f w h a t w a s c o n t e m p la t e d th e r e i s n o w a y t h e d e p a r t m e n t w a s g o i n g t o g e t v a l u e fo r m o n e y h e r e . I n o t h e r w o r d s , 10 n o t n e c e s s a r ily l o o k i n g a t w h a t h a d b e e n d o n e in t e r m s o f t h e o p e r a ti o n s . Ms G c a b a s h e d o y o u h a v e t h e s a m e u n d e r s t a n d in g a s m e ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A b s o lu t e l y C h a ir m a n I ’ m a c tu a lly ju s t tr y i n g t o fi n d t h e a c tu a l d o c u m e n ta t io n t o h e l p Mr T h a b e t h e b e c a u s e h e w a s n ’ t h e r e , m u c h a s h e ’s f a m il i a r w i t h D a w i e M a r e e ’s r e p o r t a s I u n d e r s t o o d it . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s i t’s t h e s a m e th i n g li k e y o u r e m e m b e r w h e n I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t c e r t a in c l a u s e s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t o f J u ly w h e r e I l o o k a n d I c a n i m m e d i a t e ly s a y b u t t h e s e p e o p le a r e s ig n in g a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h Es t in a , Es t in a a s a t t h a t ti m e t h e y d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t i t ’s fi n a n c i a l 20 s tr e n g t h i s a n d a s i t t u r n s o u t o n t h e fi n a n c i a l s t a te m e n ts t h a t w e r e r e fe r r e d t o , t o th e e x t e n t t h a t th o s e s ta t e m e n ts m a y h a v e b e e n a t r u e r e fl e c t io n o f E s ti n a ’s fi n a n c i a l s i t u a t io n . T h e y s a y t h e y ’r e g o in g t o g iv e E s ti n a a m i ll io n s o f r a n d , if E s ti n a , e ff e c t i v e l y r u n s a w a y t h e y c a n ’ t g e t – r e c o v e r th a t m o n e y fr o m E s ti n a a n d t h e y c a n ’t r e c o v e r i t fr o m P a r a s b e c a u s e P a r a s h a s g o t n o o b li g a ti o n to t h e m t h e y a r e n o t s i g n i n g Page 143 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 a g r e e m e n t w i t h P a r a s . E s t i n a h a s s i g n e d a n a g r e e m e n t w it h t h e m b u t s o m e o f i t ’s c l a u s e s a r e q u e s ti o n a b le b u t i n a n y e v e n t i f th e y r e c e iv e t h e m o n e y a n d th e d ir e c t o r s t a k e t h e m o n e y o u t a n d d is a p p e a r t h e d e p a r t m e n t w o n ’ t g e t a n y th in g . S o i t ’s s o m e t h i n g a l o n g t h o s e l i n e s to s a y, i f y o u l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n w h a t a r e t h e c h a n g e s th a t th e d e p a r t m e n t w i ll g e t v a lu e f o r m o n e y h e r e . So I understood that s t a te m e n t i n t h a t c o n t e x t . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a C h a ir I w o u l d n o t a g r e e w it h h i m b e c a u s e my u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t t h e p r o j e c t w a s p r o g r e s s i n g w e ll 10 a n d i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n a ll o w e d t o g e t t o i t s c o n c lu s i o n t h e r e w a s g o i n g t o b e b e n e f i t i n t e r m s o f v a lu e fo r m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l th a t ’s n o t – th e b a s is f o r th a t r e s p o n s e i s n o t a p r o p e r b a s is t o a n s w e r t h i s ty p e o f q u e s t i o n b e c a u s e t h e b a s i s f o r y o u r r e s p o n s e is le t ’s w a i t a n d s e e , a l l o w t h e p r o j e c t t o p r o c e e d a n d le t ’s s e e if th e r e ’ ll b e v a l u e fo r m o n e y b u t t h e q u e s t io n is s a y i n g , e v e n b e f o r e y o u g e t t o s t a r t y o u n e e d t o h a v e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t t e l ls y o u t h a t i f w e e m b a r k u p o n t h is j o u r n e y, t h e r e ’s lik e ly t o b e v a lu e f o r m o n e y. S o in o t h e r w o r d s y o u r a n s w e r s h o u ld b e , w e ll I d o n ’ t a g r e e because when you look at the following documentation maybe the 20 p r o p o s a l , th e f e a s i b il it y s t u d y i f y o u lo o k a t t h i s , e v e n b e f o r e t h e o p e r a ti o n s t a r ts , th a t g iv e s y o u a c l e a r i d e a t h a t t h e r e w il l b e v a lu e f o r m o n e y. S o t h a t ’s t h e k i n d o f a n s w e r b u t i f y o u s a i d a ll o w u s t o w o r k a n d s e e , i t d o e s n ’ t a n s w e r to t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r y o u s h o u ld s t a r t a t a ll b e c a u s e y o u s h o u l d n ’ t s ta r t a p r o j e c t t h a t w o n ’ t g iv e y o u v a l u e f o r m o n e y, y o u m u s t b e a b le t o m a k e a j u d g m e n t c a ll b e f o r e y o u s ta r t Page 144 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 w h e t h e r t h i s p r o je c t is l ik e l y t o g iv e y o u v a lu e fo r m o n e y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a C h a ir my u n d e r s t a n d in g o f M r M a r e e ’s a n a ly s is w a s t h a t t h e p r o j e c t i ts e l f i t d i d n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h i t, h e w a s t h e n q u e s ti o n i n g t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n p a r t , t h a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g b e c a u s e I s ti ll b e li e v e t h a t o n p a p e r w e h a d p u t e v e r y t h i n g p r o p e r ly a n d if y o u ’ r e l o o k in g a t t h e d o c u m e n ts th e m s e lv e s , y o u w o u l d b e a b l e t o d e r iv e v a l u e f o r m o n e y. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u m a y b e r i g h t a n d M s G c a b a s h e w il l d e a l w i th t h a t in d u e c o u r s e , y o u m a y b e r i g h t i n t e r m s o f w h a t h e s a i d b u t I 10 w o n d e r w h e t h e r h e w a s n ’ t s a y in g , i f y o u l o o k a t h o w i t is p r o p o s e d , th is p r o j e c t w ill b e i m p l e m e n t e d it w o n ’ t g iv e t h e d e p a r t m e n t v a l u e f o r m o n e y. I’ m s a y i n g I w o n d e r i f h e w a s n ’ t t a lk i n g a lo n g t h o s e li n e s b u t i t m a y b e th a t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s n o t c o r r e c t , m a y b e y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g is c o r r e c t , Ms G c a b a s h e w i ll t a k e i t fr o m th e r e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I f I m ig h t j u s t g iv e th e e x a m p l e a g a i n t h a t D a w i e M a r e e h i ms e lf u s e s , o f j u s t t h e l o c a l it y. S o I’ m a g r e e i n g w i t h t h e C h a ir m a n ’s a n a l y s i s b u t I ’ m s a y in g th a t D a w i e M a r e e t h e n ill u s tr a t e s w h a t h is t a lk in g a b o u t , o n e e x a m p le b e i n g t h e l o c a l it y o f t h e d a ir y f a r m a n d h e e x p la i n s t h e t y p e o f c o w, t h e ty p e o f h e r d y o u n e e d 20 in th e E a s t e r n p a r t o f th e Fr e e S t a t e a s o p p o s e d to w h a t y o u w o u l d r e q u ir e i n th e M i d l a n d s . H e a c t u a ll y e x p la in e d t h a t i n th e M i d l a n d s y o u h a v e a n o p t i m a l e n v ir o n m e n t f o r d a i r y f a r mi n g b u t t h a t y o u r w e a th e r p a t t e r n s , y o u r e n v ir o n m e n t a l p a t t e r n s a r e q u i t e d is ti n c t w h e n y o u g e t u p to a n a r e a l ik e Vr e d e . S o h e s a y s ju s t o n lo c a li t y a l o n e y o u g o t i t w r o n g , j u s t o n lo c a li t y a lo n e y o u g o t i t w r o n g . Page 145 of 194 Then in terms of the 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ty p e o f c a t tl e y o u p u r c h a s e d , th e ty p e o f c o w s y o u p u r c h a s e d h e h a d v a r io u s q u e s ti o n m a r k s r e la t e d t o th a t . The feed and the manner of f e e d i n g a n i m a ls h e t o o r a is e d i s s u e s w i t h a n d a t th e n u b o f a l l t h e c o n c e r n s t h a t h e r a is e d w a s th e p r o p o s it i o n t h a t t h e d e p a r t m e n t d id n o t g e t v a l u e f o r m o n e y. O n e n o t fr o m t h e o r ig in a l p r o p o s a l , n o t fr o m t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n a n d c e r t a i n ly n o t fr o m th e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. W h a t I w a s tr y i n g t o d o w a s l o o k a t t h a t v a lu e fo r m o n e y p r o p o s i ti o n b y h a v i n g a lo o k a t w h a t th e f a r m lo o k s l ik e to d a y, w e ll t h e p a r t a n y w a y, t h a t E s ti n a p a r t y w a s r e s p o n s ib l e f o r. T h e w h o le – t h e p i c tu r e s o f m o s t o f t h e f a r m 10 h e r e b u t I w a s t r y i n g t o j u s t lo o k – t a k e a s n a p s h o t, h e n c e m y r e fe r e n c e t o t h e s e p a r t ic u l a r p ic tu r e s . I ’ m g o i n g t o g o b a c k to th e D a w i e M a r e e r e p o r t a n d ju s t g o th r o u g h h i s c o n c l u s io n s a n d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s b u t I t h i n k i t m i g h t h e l p i f w e l o o k a t t h e s e p ic t u r e s a n d g e t r id o f t h e p ic t u r e s fi r s t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : J a t h a n k y o u C h a ir. U n f o r t u n a t e ly I n e v e r h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty to lo o k a t h is r e p o r t a n d m a k e c o m m e n ts i n t o i t . CHAIRPERSON: Oh even – even as you speak there? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o I m e a n b e f o r e h e s u b m i t t e d h is report. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h b e f o r e h e c a m e to t h e c o m m is s i o n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B e f o r e – b e f o r e h e s u b m i tt e d t o N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u o n l y s a w it a f te r ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I o n l y s a w i t a f t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. Page 146 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s c o n c l u d e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B e c a u s e in h is r e p o r t I h a v e g o t a n u m b e r o f is s u e s t h a t I w o u ld h a v e r a is e d a n d q u e s ti o n e d . I did not a g r e e w i t h h is r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l e v e n a s y o u s i t t h e r e if th e r e a r e t h i n g s t h a t y o u d o n o t a g r e e w i t h i n t h e r e p o r t y o u e n t it le d to s a y s o a n d d e a l w i th t h e m b e c a u s e h is r e p o r t is p a r t o f t h e m a t e r i a l t h a t is p l a c e d b e f o r e m e w h ic h I m a y ta k e in t o a c c o u n t i n m a k i n g d e c is i o n s a n d f in d in g s a n d t o 10 t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t is s u c h a m a t e r ia l i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t s o m e b o d y lik e y o u s h o u l d h a v e lo o k e d a t i t a n d ta k e n a v i e w a n d b e a b l e to s a y I a g r e e w i t h t h is p a r t I d o n o t a g r e e w i t h t h is p a r t a n d th is is – t h is is – t h is is w h e r e – w h e r e I a m c r i ti c a l o f i t . A n d t h e n w e c a n ta k e i t fr o m t h e r e . S o – s o w h a t I a m s a y i n g is t h a t d o o r i s n o t c l o s e d b e c a u s e y o u m u s t g e t a f a ir o p p o r t u n i ty t o d e a l w i t h t h e s e t h i n g s . A n d if – i f y o u a r e n o t i n a p o s i ti o n t o d e a l w i t h i t t o d a y w e m i g h t h a v e to c o n s i d e r w h a t m a y n e e d to b e d o n e . But it is a report that you ought to be able to d e a l w it h i n s o f a r a s i t i s c r i t ic a l o f t h e p r o j e c t . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 Th a n k y o u C h a ir I w o u l d r e q u e s t C h a ir th a t I b e a ffo r d e d t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty t o d o th a t b e c a u s e I to o k i t t h a t it w a s c o n c l u d e d b e c a u s e i t w a s a l r e a d y i n t h e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y s u b m is s io n o r c o n – r e p o r t . S o w e n e v e r g o t a n o p p o r tu n it y t o r e s p o n d t o i t . N e it h e r d i d I g e t a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e s p o n d t o t h e Tr e a s u r y R e p o r t. S o I w a s n o t a b le t o – t o e n g a g e a n d b e a b l e to s a y h e r e I a g r e e , h e r e I d o n o t a g r e e a n d p u t m y p o in t s a c r o s s . Page 147 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a l r i g h t . I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o s a y a n y th in g M s G c a b a s h e o n th is ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: C h a ir m a n y e s . Yo u – y o u k n o w t h a t t h e D a w ie M a r e e R e p o r t f o r m e d p a r t o f t h e b i g g e r N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y in v e s t i g a t io n r e p o r t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I d o C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u o k a y w i th t h a t g o o d . Yo u w e r e in t e r v ie w e d b y t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s t w ic e i f n o t m o r e t h a n m o r e th a t b u t d e f in i te ly t w ic e , a m I c o r r e c t? 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I n v e s ti g a to r s o f Tr e a s u r y o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: O f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y. N o o f N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s o n c e C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e n o t e I h a v e h e r e is t h a t y o u w e r e in t e r v ie w e d o n th e 9 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 a n d t h e s e c o n d i n te r v i e w w a s o n the 22nd November 2013. I s t h a t a n in c o r r e c t r e c o r d a l b y t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s ? I a m r e a d i n g fr o m t h e ir r e p o r t . MR MBANA PET ER THABETHE: Ja I may need to go back and check 20 C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m ig h t n o t b e s u r e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I may not be sure. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W h e t h e r in d e e d w a s i t t w ic e ? C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . I t is – t h e r e is a p o s s i b i li ty it c o u l d b e t w ic e b u t Page 148 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 y o u – y o u j u s t r e m e m b e r o n c e a t t h i s s ta g e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: J a I r e m e m b e r C h a ir i t – o t h e r w is e t h e n i t w i ll b e t h r e e ti m e s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: B e c a u s e t h e fi r s t ti m e i t is w h e n t h e y came… C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t c a n n o t b e t h r e e t i m e s w i th o u t b e i n g t w o ti m e s fir s t. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I – y e s C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Before you get to three you must go – you must cross t w o fi r s t . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a I a m t h i n k in g C h a ir i f – i f t h e d a t e s t h a t s h e i n d ic a te s b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s t h e fi r s t d a t e w h e n th e y c a m e a n d w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o a g r e e . T h a t i s t h e f ir s t d a y w h e n I h a d t o s e n d them back. B e c a u s e th e y d id n o t b r i n g t h e n e c e s s a r y d o c u m e n t a ti o n with them. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e l l s o y o u s a y y o u t h i n k i t w a s o n c e . Yo u a r e o t s u r e i f i t w a s t w ic e b u t y o u t h i n k t h e r e m i g h t e v e n b e th r e e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d t o c h e c k c e r ta i n t h in g s ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a m s u r e i t i s t w ic e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B u t if I h e a r t h e d a te s s h e is m e n ti o n i n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u t h in k i t m a y th e r e f o r e b e th r ic e ? Page 149 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It m a y b e th e r e f o r e t h r e e ti m e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o b u t t h e t w o – t h e tw o – t h e t w ic e y o u a c c e p t n o w. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a g r e e C h a ir y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d o f c o u r s e t h e i s s u e s t h e y r a i s e d w i th y o u v a r i e d f r o m t h e S u p p ly C h a in M a n a g e m e n t is s u e s t o d e a li n g w i th t h e f i n a n c ia l o b li g a ti o n s t h a t y o u h a v e t o b u d g e t a n d a p p r o p r ia t e , g e t 10 c o r r e c t a p p r o p r i a ti o n s e tc e te r a , e t c e t e r a . T h e y d e a l t w i th a r a n g e o f is s u e s w h e n t h e y s p o k e w it h y o u ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. C h a ir i f I r e m e m b e r n o w v e r y w e ll . Th e fir s t ti m e – i t is t h r e e t i m e s . T h e s e c o n d t i m e i t is w h e n t h e y c a m e t o r e q u e s t d o c u m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: M o s tl y it w a s d o c u m e n ts t h e y w e r e r e q u e s t in g . T h e n th e s e c o n d ti m e i t w a s t h e n a n in t e r v i e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 W h e r e t h e n th e y a s k e d m e q u e s t io n t h e n I r e s p o n d e d to t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e th ir d t i m e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is t h e – th e fir s t t i m e … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e th ir d t i m e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h e fir s t t i m e i t i s w h e n w e d id n o t in t e r a c t . Page 150 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e y w a n te d d o c u m e n ts . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s t h e y w a n t e d d o c u m e n ts b u t th e y d i d n o t b r i n g m e l e t t e r s t o s a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : In d e e d th is is a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t i s w h e n y o u – y o u s e n t th e m b a c k . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I s e n t th e m b a c k . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Because I had no proof. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Th a t t h e y w e r e c o m in g f r o m Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e y d i d n o t b r i n g w i t h t h e m d o c u m e n t a t i o n th a t c o n v i n c e s m e t h a t in d e e d th e y c o m e fr o m t h e r e . S o I s a id I c o u l d n o t – I c a n n o t g iv e y o u g o v e r n m e n t d o c u m e n t s u n ti l I a m s a ti s fi e d th a t th is i n v e s ti g a t i o n h a s b e e n a u th o r is e d b y N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y. S o t h e y w e n t . T h e y c a m e b a c k n o w w i t h t h e l e t t e r s t h a t c o n f ir m e d th a t i n d e e d w e w e r e c o mi n g f r o m Tr e a s u r y w e a r e l o o k i n g f o r t h e s e d o c u m e n ts . A n d t h e n t h e t h ir d ti m e i t is w h e n t h e y c a m e to d o a n i n te r v i e w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f c o u r s e w h e n y o u r e f u s e d to c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e m t h e fir s t ti m e w h a t y o u c o u ld h a v e d o n e a s a n a l te r n a tiv e w a s s i m p l y to p h o n e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d fi n d o u t fr o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y if M r D u m is a n i C e l e is s o m e b o d y w h o w o r k s a t N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d w h o i s a u t h o r i s e d to c o m e a n d s p e a k w i t h y o u . Yo u c o u l d h a v e d o n e that. Page 151 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a , j a I s ti ll C h a ir a n in v e s ti g a t io n y o u c a n n o t ju s t c o n f ir m o n t h e p h o n e . T h e y n e e d t o g i v e m e p r o p e r l e t te r s w i t h t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s o th a t I h a v e a n u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n is a l l a b o u t . B e c a u s e I c a n n o t ju s t c o m e a n d s a y I a m c o mi n g t o d o a n in v e s ti g a t io n w it h o u t p r o p e r d o c u m e n t . W h a t is it a n d w h a t i s i t a l l a b o u t . S o I h a d r e q u e s t e d t h e m t o s a y p le a s e p r e p a r e t h e d o c u m e n ts fo r m e s o th a t I a m a b l e to g i v e you what you are requesting. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 B u t e v e n w h e r e th e y d i d g iv e y o u t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n M r T h a b e th e y o u w e r e a r a th e r d i ffi c u l t c u s to m e r w e r e y o u n o t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w e r e y o u a d i ffic u lt o r n o t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r I w a s d i ffi c u l t or not. CHAIRPERSON: Oh were you a soft customer? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t h o u g h t I w a s a v e r y s o f t c u s t o m e r. B e c a u s e – b e c a u s e i t i s – m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g C h a ir w a s t h a t if th e r e w o u ld b e a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n th e P r o v i n c ia l D e p a r t m e n t w h e r e t h e r e is a 20 – y o u a r e s e n d i n g a n o ffic i a l to a H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t w h o is a t a lo w e r le v e l w i th t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t y o u w o u l d h a v e c o m m u n ic a te d w i t h t h e H O D f ir s t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t p a r t o f t h e p o i n t th a t Ms G c a b a s h e m a k e s is t h is o n e . N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y d o e s a s p a r t o f i ts f u n c ti o n a s I u n d e r s t a n d it c o n d u c t i n v e s t ig a ti o n s i n to h o w c e r t a in d e p a r t m e n t s , g o v e r n m e n t Page 152 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 d e p a r t m e n ts a r e h a n d l i n g c e r t a i n th i n g s . A m I c o r r e c t a b o u t th a t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I a g r e e C h a ir th a t th a t i s c o r r e c t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w – a n d o n e w o u l d e x p e c t th a t t h e a t ti t u d e o f o th e r g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n ts a n d t h e ir H O D ’s w o u l d b e t o c o - o p e r a t e whenever th e National Tr e a s u r y sends anybody to conduct an in v e s t i g a t io n b e c a u s e th is is n o t s o m e b o d y fr o m o u t s i d e o f g o v e r n m e n t . T h i s i s fr o m t h e s a m e g o v e r n m e n t y o u k n o w. And that provided you c o u l d c o n f ir m w it h s o m e b o d y s e n i o r a t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y m a y b e y o u r counterpart or maybe somebody else senior if your counterpart is not 10 t h e r e t h a t t h e p e r s o n w h o h a s a r r iv e d i n y o u r d e p a r t m e n t f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f m a k i n g – c o n d u c ti n g s o m e i n v e s t ig a ti o n is i n d e e d s o m e b o d y fr o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d h a s b e e n m a n d a t e d t o d o t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e n e e d to s a y I w a n t i t in b la c k a n d w h i t e . Yo u w o u l d a c c e p t . A s l o n g a s it is s o m e b o d y f r o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y y o u w o u l d s a y, o k a y le t m e h e a r w h a t y o u – w h a t d o y o u w a n t a n d w e w i ll c o - o p e r a t e a n d g iv e y o u w h a te v e r i t is th a t y o u w a n t b e c a u s e it i s n o t l ik e y o u a r e c o m p e ti t io n o r a n y t h i n g . Yo u a r e fr o m w i t h in . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a I t h i n k th a t i s p a r t o f w h a t M s G c a b a s h e is s a y i n g 20 is n a m e ly i f a s H O D w h e n s o m e b o d y w h o s a y s I a m fr o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a r r iv e s a n d w a n t s t o – w a n ts y o u r c o - o p e r a ti o n in v e s t i g a t in g s o m e t h i n g y o u s e n d t h e m a w a y. Yo u d o n o t e v e n s a y l o o k l e t m e p h o n e t h e H O D o r t h e D G a t N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y o r s o m e b o d y s e n i o r t o f i n d o u t if t h e y k n o w a b o u t t h is p e r s o n w h o i s h e r e a n d w h e th e r h e h a s b e e n m a n d a t e d . T h a t s e e ms r a t h e r h a r d o r i t s e e m s l ik e y o u d o n o t w a n t t o Page 153 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 co-operate. Th e i n s is te n c e o n t h a t k i n d o f fo r m a l i ty o f w a n t in g d o c u m e n ts . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I n d e e d in th e fir s t m e e ti n g b u t n o t i n th e f o ll o w i n g m e e ti n g s a f t e r t h a t . I n t h e f ir s t m e e ti n g I in s i s t e d t h a t t h e r e m u s t b e fo r m a l is e d d o c u m e n ts . B e c a u s e I t o o k i t t h a t a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n c a n n o t b e t a k e n v e r y li g h t ly. Th e y u n d e r s t o o d i t v e r y w e l l a n d i t h a s h a p p e n e d to m e t h a t a d o c u m e n t fr o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y g e ts s e n t t o th e Pr o v in c e a n d it g e t s r e tr a c t e d b e c a u s e t h e p e r s o n th a t d i d th e d o c u m e n t d i d n o t c o n s u l t . 10 So those w e r e s o m e o f th e is s u e s t h a t k e e p u s a w a k e t o s a y I c a n n o t j u s t r e l e a s e t h e s e d o c u m e n ts u n t il I h a v e a f o r m a l le t t e r f r o m N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y th a t s a y s y e s i n d e e d w e a r e d o i n g t h is i n v e s ti g a t i o n ; r e le a s e t h e d o c u m e n ts . It saves me because if that happens and it has not b e e n o ff ic ia li s e d th e n I a m in tr o u b l e a g a i n t o h a v e r e l e a s e d t h o s e d o c u m e n ts . S o I w a n t e d c e r t a i n ty t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y g i v e m e t h e c o r r e c t d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d t h e n I a m a b le t o r e l e a s e t h e d o c u m e n t s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s b u t t h i s o f c o u r s e w a s n o t t h e o n l y in c i d e n t w h e r e y o u r e f u s e d t o c o - o p e r a t e w i th t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s fr o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y, w a s i t? 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o C h a ir I d o n o t – b e c a u s e I p r o v i d e d d o c u m e n ts . Th e o n e in s t a n c e w h e r e t h e y h a d i n d ic a t e d to m e t h a t I h a d r e f u s e d t o g i v e t h e m d o c u m e n t s it w a s d o c u m e n t s th a t w e d id not have. It is a document that we did not have. They ask us to p r o v i d e th e m w i th a ll t h e t e n d e r d o c u m e n t s , b i d c o m m i t t e e s a n d s o o n t h e Vr e d e D a ir y a n d w e h a d n o t d o n e t h a t . T h e o n l y d o c u m e n t w e h a d Page 154 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 w a s t h e d e v i a ti o n d o c u m e n t . N o w t h e r e w a s n o w a y I c o u ld g iv e t h e m d o c u m e n ts w h i c h t h e y w a n t e d w h ic h w e d i d n o t h a v e . S o t h a t – t h a t h a s b e e n th e p r o b le m . T h e y w a n t e d t h o s e d o c u m e n t s . I t w a s l ik e w e w e r e h i d i n g th e m . W e h a d t h e m a n d w e i n d i c a t e d t h a t w e d i d n o t g o t h r o u g h t h a t p r o c e s s . S o w e d i d n o t h a v e th o s e d o c u m e n ts . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I ju s t g iv e y o u o n e o r t w o e x a m p l e s t h a t th e y n o te in t h e ir r e p o r t ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 A t R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e A p a g e 6 9 i s t h e p a g e I w ill b e r e a d i n g f r o m . S o R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e A . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s , y e s C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a g e 6 9 . Yo u h a v e a s e c t i o n . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ti tl e d w i t n e s s i n t e r v i e w s . In t h a t f ir s t p a r a g r a p h t h e y s a y t h a t a f te r th e ir fi r s t in t e r v ie w w it h y o u M r Th a b e t h e t h e y a p p r o a c h e d Es t in a – a p p r o a c h e d E s ti n a ’s d ir e c to r Mr K a m a l Va s r a m . Maybe I should just pause there. H a v e y o u m e t w it h M r Va s r a m ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I h a v e C h a ir. 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: How often do you – had you met in the p e r i o d 2 0 11 w h e n y o u a r r i v e d a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d 2 0 1 8 w h e n y o u le f t ; h o w o f t e n h a d y o u m e t M r Va s r a m ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Q u it e a n u m b e r o f t i m e s C h a ir. w o u ld n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly h o w m a n y ti m e s b u t w e h a d m e t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h e n w a s t h e f ir s t ti m e y o u m e t h i m ? Page 155 of 194 I 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: It i s w h e n – I a m tr y in g t o t h in k . I t h i n k i t w a s w h e n t h e y c a m e t o m a k e a p r e s e n t a ti o n t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o n t h e p r o p o s a l t h a t w a s s u b m i tt e d b y Es t i n a . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W h o h a d a r r a n g e d t h a t p r e s e n ta t io n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I t w a s a r r a n g e d b y th e m to u s t o c o m e a n d m a k e a p r e s e n ta t io n o n t h e p r o p o s a l o f t h e p r o je c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d w h e n t h e y i n tr o d u c e d t h e m s e l v e s to y o u a t th e ti m e w h a t d i d th e y s a y t o y o u ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a i r b u t – a t th e … 10 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h e n t h e y a s k e d fo r t h e a p p o i n t m e n t in o th e r w o r d s ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir b y t h e t i m e t h e y m a d e a p p o i n t m e n t I k n e w t h e y w e r e Es t in a a l r e a d y. W h e n th e y c a m e t o m a k e t h e p r o p o s a l I k n e w t h e m a s E s ti n a t o c o m e a n d m a k e th e p r e s e n t a – t h e p r o p o s a l o f th e p r o j e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d w h o h a d i n f o r m e d y o u a b o u t E s t in a c o m i n g t o m a k e a p r e s e n t a ti o n t o y o u ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It w a s Mr Va s r a m h i ms e lf . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o y o u k n e w h i m q u i t e w e ll ? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I k n e w h i m . H e d id c o m e to t h e D e p a r t m e n t. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o a s a t a b o u t 2 0 1 2 – e a r l y 2 0 1 2 m id 2012 you would have known him very well? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I – I a m n o t s u r e w h a t is v e r y w e ll C h a ir b u t I k n e w h i m . Page 156 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W e l l l e t u s c o n ti n u e h e r e b e c a u s e i t is ju s t t o g i v e c o n te x t t o w h a t t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s w e r e a s k in g o f y o u t h a t I a s k y o u th e s e o t h e r r e l a te d q u e s t io n s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h e y s a y a ft e r t h e ir f ir s t in t e r v i e w w i th y o u M r T h a b e t h e t h e y a p p r o a c h e d E s ti n a ’s d ir e c to r M r K a m a l Va s r a m t o d is c u s s t h e p r o j e c t w i t h h i m . Mr Va s r a m is E s ti n a ’s o n l y d ir e c t o r. M r Va s r a m w o u l d n o t a g r e e t o a n i n t e r v ie w w i t h E N S a n d s t a t e d t h a t E s ti n a w a s b o u n d t o c o n fi d e n t i a l it y in te r ms o f t h e a g r e e m e n t s i g n e d w i th t h e 10 D e p a r t m e n t. W e r e q u e s t e d t h a t Mr Va s r a m p r o d u c e t h e a g r e e m e n t g iv i n g r is e t o h is d u ty o f c o n f i d e n ti a l i ty. M r Va s r a m ig n o r e d o u r r e q u e s t a n d w e w e r e n o t p r o v i d e d w it h a c o p y o f th e a g r e e m e n t . So at our s e c o n d i n t e r v i e w w it h M r T h a b e t h e w e r e q u e s t e d h i m t o w a iv e c o n fi d e n ti a li ty a n d fa c i li t a t e a m e e t in g b e tw e e n E N S a n d M r Va s r a m . M r Th a b e t h e r e f u s e d to a s s is t E N S a n d s t a te d t h a t w e s h o u l d c o n d u c t o u r o w n i n v e s ti g a t i o n w i t h o u t h is a s s is t a n c e . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o – n o C h a ir. W h a t d id t h e y h a d r e q u e s t e d m e i s t h a t I p r o v id e th e m w i t h M r Va s r a m ’s c o n t a c ts w h ic h I d i d s o t h a t th e y w i ll b e a b l e t o t a l k t o M r Va s r a m . 20 Th e n a p p a r e n tly b e c a u s e i n th e i n te r v i e w t h e – t h is h a p p e n s w h e n t h e y c a m e t o d o t h e in t e r v ie w w i t h m e . T h e y s a i d t h e y h a d a p r o b l e m in s e c u r in g a n a p p o i n t m e n t w i th M r Va s r a m . T h e y w o u l d w a n t t o i n te r v i e w h i m . A n d fr o m m y s i d e I a l s o tr ie d to a s k h i m t o i n t e r a c t w it h th e m . Now what c a m e o u t o f t h a t w a s th a t t h e y h a d t h e n i n d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t th e in v e s t i g a t io n is w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t . W h a te v e r t h a t – th e y w a n t fr o m Page 157 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e m I s h o u ld th e n – i t s h o u l d b e a s k e d th r o u g h m e t o p r o v id e to th e m . B e c a u s e th e y w e r e a t h ir d p a r ty in t o t h is . O t h e r w is e t h e y w e r e in d i c a t in g t h a t i f t h i s in v e s t i g a t io n is a ls o t o i n v e s t ig a t e a t h ir d p a r ty t h e n it w o u l d h a v e t o g o th r o u g h a d i ff e r e n t p r o c e s s . T h is i n te r v i e w w a s t h e – t h i s i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s fo r th e D e p a r t m e n t n o t f o r t h e t h ir d p a r t y. S o t h a t i s w h a t t h e y i n d ic a te d to m e t h a t t h e y w o u l d n o t w a n t t o b e p a r t o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n . B u t if t h e D e p a r t m e n t w a n ts a n y in f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e th e y w e r e w o r k i n g w i t h u s t h e n th e y w o u ld b e a b l e t o m a k e t h a t in f o r m a t io n a v a il a b l e b u t t h e y w o u ld n o t b e o p e n f o r 10 in v e s t i g a t io n to b e p a r t o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I m u s t s a y y o u r v e r s i o n is v e r y d i ffe r e n t to w h a t is w r i t t e n h e r e . B e c a u s e i f y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 2 . 3 . 2 i n th e m i d d l e o f th e p a g e t h e y g o o n t o s a y : “ M r T h a b e th e s t a te d t h a t h e w a s in c o n ta c t w i t h Mr Va s r a m a n d t h a t h e w a s a w a r e t h a t M r Va s r a m r e fu s e d t o m e e t w i t h u s . H e w a s n e v e r th e le s s u n w il li n g t o fa c i li t a t e a m e e t i n g b e t w e e n E N S a n d E s ti n a . ” M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: 20 J a t h a t – C h a ir is c o r r e c t . I have in d i c a t e d t o t h e m t h a t I w a s i n c o n t a c t a n d h e h a d i n d ic a te d t o m e – b e c a u s e i f h e h a s i n d ic t e d t h a t h e w o u l d n o t w a n t t o d o i t n o w i t c a n n o t b e t h a t I a m n o t w il li n g b e c a u s e I w a s t e l li n g t h e m t h is is m y i n t e r a c ti o n w i t h h i m a n d t h is is h o w h e s e e s i t . So I do not know where the u n w il li n g c o m e s i n b e c a u s e I h a d c o n t a c t e d h i m o n t h e ir r e q u e s t a n d h e h a s in d ic a t e d t o m e a n d th e n I h a v e – i n m y m e e t in g I h a v e s p o k e n to Page 158 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e m t h is i s w h a t h e s a y s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : M r T h a b e t h e d o y o u h a v e a d i ff ic u l ty w i th t h e w h o le c o n c e p t o f tr a n s p a r e n c y, o p e n n e s s , a c c o u n ta b i li t y ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o I d o n o t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t w h e n o n e r e a d s t h e s e p a r t ic u l a r c o m m e n t s a m o n g s t o th e r t h i n g s o n e g a i n s t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t y o u – y o u p r e f e r b e i n g c l o s e d i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h y o u c o n d u c t y o u r o ffic i a l n o t e v e n p r iv a te li k e y o u r o ffi c i a l d u t ie s r a t h e r th a n b e in g o p e n a n d tr a n s p a r e n t . 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: J a C h a i r I a m s u r e I h a v e e x p l a in e d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : B u t t h i s w a s t h e ir r e p o r t. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I d o n o t k n o w h o w th e y s a w m y e x p l a n a t io n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B u t if I w a s to b e m a d e to m a k e in p u t s i n t h is s t a t e m e n t I w o u l d n o t a g r e e w i t h i t . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: The way it has been put because I h a d e x p la i n e d t h a t I h a v e d o n e w h a t I w a s s u p p o s e d t o d o a n d t h is is w h a t I g o t a n d a c c o r d i n g t o t h i s i t w a s lik e I w a s n o t w i ll in g to d o a n y th in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 159 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: B u t th e y a c k n o w l e d g e s o m e o f t h e a c ti v i ti e s t h a t I h a d u n d e r ta k e n i n te r ms o f c o n t a c t a n d i n c o m in g b a c k to them. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m u s t f e e l f r e e t o s a y t h a t i s w h a t t h e y s a y b u t i t is w r o n g b e c a u s e o f a ,b ,c , d o r i t i s n o t j u s ti f ie d w h a t th e y a r e s a y i n g about me. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o f a , b , c ,d . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k d a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e n e x t e x a m p l e C h a ir m a n t h r o u g h y o u is a t p a r a g r a p h 2 .3 . 3 . w h e r e i t i s n o te d t h a t Mr T h a b e t h e f u r t h e r r e fu s e d t o w a i v e h is r ig h t t o a t to r n e y /c li e n t p r i v i le g e s o t h a t w e c o u l d in t e r v ie w A d v o c a t e D i tir a o f t h e S t a te A t t o r n e y ’s o ff ic e . W e w is h t o in t e r v ie w A d v o c a t e D i t ir a i n r e s p e c t o f t h e a d v ic e s h e g a v e M r T h a b e th e a n d t h e Fr e e S t a te D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t i n r e s p e c t o f t h is p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d t h e s e c o n d c o n tr a c t s i g n e d b e t w e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d E s t in a . Is t h a t c o r r e c t y o u w o u l d n o t w a iv e y o u r r ig h t t o a t t o r n e y /c li e n t p r i v i le g e ? A n d t h is is 20 m i n d y o u i n r e s p e c t o f s t a t e l a w a d v is o r s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I d o n o t t h i n k C h a ir t h e y n e e d e d p e r m is s io n fr o m m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I a m - I a m – I a ls o d o n o t – I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d t h e i d e a o f in v o k i n g p r iv il e g e o r – i n t h i s k i n d o f s i t u a ti o n . I t is a l l g o v e r n m e n t. Page 160 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : It is a ll – y e s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t i s n o t y o u r p e r s o n a l m a tt e r. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: No. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is g o v e r n m e n t a n d i f t h e y n e e d t o t a l k t o th e s t a t e la w a d v is o r s w h o a d v is e d y o u I d o n o t s e e w h y th e r e s h o u l d b e a p r o b le m . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d th o s e s t a t e l a w a d v is o r s m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y to th e m Mr T h a b e t h e c a m e t o u s a n d s o u g h t th e a d v ic e o n th e s e 10 f a c ts . T h i s is w h a t h e to ld u s a n d t h i s i s t h e a d v ic e w e t o l d th e m – w e t o l d h i m , w e g a v e h i m . T h a t s h o u l d n o t a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d r e a ll y b e a p r o b l e m . B u t t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e y s a y y o u in v o k e d t h a t p r i v il e g e if t h a t is w h a t t h e y s a y t h e n m y p r o b l e m is \ 1 . W i th y o u i n v o k in g i t b u t 2 . W i th t h e m t h i n k in g t h a t t h e y w e r e p r e c l u d e d fr o m t a lk i n g t o th e s t a te la w a d v is o r s a b o u t w h a t a d v ic e th e y h a d g iv e n y o u a n d o n w h a t b a s is . B u t y o u m u s t in d i c a t e w h e t h e r w h a t t h e y a r e s a y i n g n a m e ly y o u r e f u s e d t o l e t t h e m t a lk t o th e s t a t e l a w a d v is o r s o n t h e b a s is t h a t y o u w e r e in a 20 c li e n t / a t to r n e y r e la t io n s h i p w i t h th e s t a te la w a d v is o r s w h e t h e r th a t i s tr u e . Yo u h a d a p r iv il e g e th a t y o u w o u l d r e l y o n to s a y th e y m u s t n o t s p e a k t o y o u r l e g a l a d v is o r s s o to s p e a k . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: C h a ir I h a v e n o t d o n e s o n e i t h e r v e r b a l ly n o r i n w r i ti n g . B e c a u s e I w o u ld u n d e r s t a n d t h i s if I h a d u s e d p r i v a t e la w y e r s b u t t h e s e p e o p le t h e y a r e r e fe r r i n g to s t a t e l a w Page 161 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 a d v is o r s a n d t h e y a r e i n a h i g h e r o ff ic e th a t m y D e p a r t m e n t i n t h e o ffic e o f t h e P r e m i e r. S o th e y h a d a l l t h e r i g h t s to g o – t h e r e w a s n o w a y I c o u l d e v e n te ll t h e m d o n o t g o th e r e . B e c a u s e t h e w a y it c o m e s a c r o s s h e r e i t is lik e I h a v e s a i d d o n o t e v e n g o t o a n y o f t h o s e o ff ic e s t o i n t e r v i e w w h i c h I s a y i t c a n n o t b e tr u e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: B u t w a s t h e r e e v e r a n y d is c u s s i o n o f t h a t k in d o f p r i v i le g e b e t w e e n y o u a n d t h e m ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : N o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t w a s – i t w a s n e v e r d is c u s s e d . M y t a k e is t h a t if t h e y c o m e a n d d o a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l G o v e r n m e n t t h e y w il l th e n b e d o in g w i t h a n y o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t t h a t f e e l h a d i n t e r a c te d w i t h t h is p a r t ic u l a r p r o j e c t t h a t w o u ld b e o p e n . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n t h e th ir d c o m m e n t t h e y m a k e i s th a t w h e n t h e y a s k e d y o u t o p r o v id e th e m w i t h t h e n a m e o f t h e C E O o f Paras again you declined to do so. They say despite our requests we w e r e n o t p r o v i d e d w i t h th e c o n ta c t d e t a i l s o r t h e n a m e o f th e P a r a s C E O . E N S w a s t h e r e f o r e n o t a b l e t o c o n t a c t t h e P a r a s r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s t h a t M r T h a b e th e a ll e g e s h e d e a lt w i t h d u r i n g th is p r o c u r e m e n t 20 p r o c e s s . E N S is t h e r e fo r e n o t a b l e t o c o n fir m w h e t h e r o r n o t P a r a s is a c t u a ll y in v o lv e d in th is a g r e e m e n t. A g a i n ju s t t h e n a m e o f t h e p e o p le y o u m e t i n I n d i a , d id y o u d e c li n e to a s s is t t h e m ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h e – b y t h is t i m e t h e C E O o f P a r a s h a d a lr e a d y b e e n in t o th e p r o j e c t i t s e l f . T h e t h i n g t h a t c a m e u p t h e y w a n t e d t h e le t t e r o f i n v i ta t io n th a t I h a d s e n t . Page 162 of 194 Now that is the 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 le t t e r t h a t w e w e r e s tr u g g l in g to fi n d i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t . W e e v e n t u a l ly g o t it a f te r s o m e ti m e b e c a u s e w e c o u ld n o t fi n d i t b u t w e h a d s e n t it t h r o u g h . B u t t h e n w e e v e n t u a l ly f o u n d th e d o c u m e n t b u t b y t h e ti m e w e m a d e th e d o c u m e n t a v a il a b l e t o t h e m t h e y h a d s a i d – t h e y h a d a lr e a d y d e c i d e d t o s a y w e h a v e r e f u s e d . B u t t h e r e w a s n o ti m e w h e r e w e h a d r e fu s e d to p r o v id e i n f o r m a ti o n . Because they had most of the d o c u m e n ts w it h th e m i n c l u d i n g t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f P a r a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . Ye s th a n k y o u . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 A n d t h e n fi n a ll y o n p a g e 9 3 u n d e r t h e h e a d i n g “ S p e c i fic L i m i t a t i o n s ” . P a g e 9 3 s p e c i fi c - r i g h t a t t h e b o t to m “ S p e c i fic L i m i t a ti o n s ” th e y n o te t h e f o l lo w i n g : “ I n th is m a t t e r i t w a s c le a r t o E N S t h a t M r T h a b e th e a n d / o r o t h e r o ffic i a ls m a y h a v e w i th h e l d i n f o r m a ti o n fr o m t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n te a m . W e m a y t h e r e fo r e n o t have obtained access to r e l e v a n t t o t h is p r o j e c t . all of the document E N S w a s n o t a b le t o in t e r v ie w M r Va s r a m o f E s t i n a o r A d v o c a t e D i tir a o f t h e S t a te A t t o r n e y ’s O ffi c e b e c a u s e M r T h a b e th e w o u ld n o t f a c i li ty o u r a c c e s s t o t h e s e w i t n e s s e s . 20 Our report is therefore based on i n f o r m a ti o n a v a i la b le t o u s a t t h e t i m e t h a t w e fi n is h e d - t h a t w e fi n a l is e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . We have not obtained E s ti n a / P a r a s ’ v e r s i o n o f e v e n t s . ” N o w y o u w o u l d a g r e e t h a t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n u s e fu l fo r t h e m t o h a v e o b t a i n e d E s ti n a ’s v e r s i o n o f e v e n ts a n d o f c o u r s e P a r a s ’ Page 163 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 v e r s i o n o f e v e n ts ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h e - t h is i te m o n “ S p e c i fi c L i m i t a ti o n s ” i t i s b a s e d o n t h e a g r e e m e n ts t h a t w e h a d a l r e a d y d is c u s s e d . I t h in k t h e y w e r e j u s t c o n c l u d i n g h e r e w h a t m a k e s t h e m t o s a y t h e y - th e y h a v e li m i t a ti o n s . Th e - t h e d o c u m e n ts w h i c h a r e a t d is p o s a l h e r e a n d t o e v e r y b o d y e ls e t h a t h a s r e q u e s t e d t h e d o c u m e n t a r e t h e s a m e d o c u m e n ts . T h e r e - t h e r e is n o t a n y o f th e d o c u m e n ts th a t is d i ffe r e n t fr o m t h i s t h a t w e h a v e . 10 T h a t is w h y I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t - w h a t d o c u m e n ts w e m a y h a v e w i t h h e l d t h a t t h e y f e lt w e w e r e h i d i n g fr o m t h e m b e c a u s e a l l w h a t - t h a t w e h a d w e p r o v i d e d t h e m . A ll th a t t h e y requested except what we did not have. Th a t w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o provide to them. T h e r e f o r e C h a ir I - I w il l n o t a g r e e w i th - w i t h t h a t c o n c l u s io n because if - if you look at them the documents that they have been a n a ly s in g t h e y - w e h a d g i v e n t h e m th e d o c u m e n t . Ex c e p t w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o g iv e th e m t e n d e r d o c u m e n ts w h i c h I h a d i n d ic a te d . I have e x p l a i n e d t o th e m t h a t w e - w e h a v e n e v e r d is c u s s e d t h e is s u e o f A d v o c a t e D i tir a . I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e i t c o m e s fr o m t h a t I h a d r e f u s e d t h e m t o 20 g o a n d i n t e r v ie w A d v o c a t e D i tir a . U n l e s s if t h e y w o u l d b e a b l e t o g iv e u s a l e t te r to s a y w e g a v e y o u th is l e t te r. H e r e is y o u r r e p ly o r w e m e t with you. We asked you. Yo u r e f u s e d . I h a d e x p l a i n e d t h e is s u e o f Va s r a m . H o w - h o w h e f e lt a b o u t - a b o u t i t s i t ti n g o u ts i d e t h e d e p a r t m e n t t o b e p a r t y t o th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h I Page 164 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 had explained to them. S o th is “ S p e c if ic L i m i ta t i o n ” C h a ir s h o u l d n o t h a v e b r o u g h t a li m i ta t io n t o t h e i n t e r v i e w. I t s h o u l d n o t h a v e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t i s y o u r v e r s io n a n d y o u a r e e n t i tl e d t o p la c e i t o n r e c o r d M r T h a b e th e . I m i g h t a s w e l l j u s t ta k e y o u t h r o u g h b r i e fl y now that we are d e a li n g w it h th e ENS o b s e r v a t i o n / fi n d i n g /c o n c l u s io n s a n d I h a v e n o t d e a l t w i t h a ll o f t h e m . I m i g h t a s w e ll t a k e y o u t h r o u g h t h e c o n c l u s i o n s a n d r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t e m a n a te d fr o m D a v i d M a r e e ’s r e p o r t . 10 H e r a is e d th e f o l l o w i n g concerns: “ O n e , a ll th r e e d o c u m e n ts … ” T h a t i s t h e p r o p o s a l - p r o j e c t p r o p o s a l , t h e b u s in e s s p l a n a n d t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y th a t y o u r e li e d o n . H e s a y s : “All three d o c u m e n ts la c k e d the i n f o r m a ti o n r e q u ir e d to c a r r y o u t a p r o p e r a n a ly s i s o f t h e project. Fo r e x a m p l e in f o r m a t io n o n t h e d e ta il e d c o s t in g o f e q u i p m e n t . ” Is o n e e x a m p l e h e g i v e s . Tw o , h e s a y s : “ T h e f e a s i b il it y s tu d y is … ” 20 CHAIRPERSON: I think he wants to comm ent on that one. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Oh please do. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir I w a s o f th e o p i n i o n t h a t w e h a d s p o k e n a b o u t th is - h is r e p o r t . Page 165 of 194 I had requested 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h a t b e c a u s e I n e v e r g o t a n o p p o r t u n i ty to r e s p o n d t o h i s r e p o r t . I w a s o f t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t w e w o u l d th e n b e a ff o r d e d … C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n o p p o r t u n i ty … C H A I R P E R S O N : D e a l w i t h i t s o m e o t h e r ti m e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a i r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O h , y o u w il l fi le a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v it o r s o m e th i n g w i t h y o u r c o m m e n ts . Yo u p r e f e r d o i n g th a t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I … 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I t h i n k h e - I t h in k h e - h e m a y o r h e m i g h t n o t b e r e a d y t o i n d ic a t e h o w h e w il l d e a l w i t h i t … MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Deal with it. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e m i g h t n e e d a d v i c e fr o m h is l a w y e r s . I think w h a t - w h a t is a c c e p t e d is th a t h e w i ll h a v e a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : To l o o k . CHAIRPERSON: To - to d e a l w i t h it i n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r. Maybe w h e n w e a r e d o n e t h e r e w i ll b e s o m e d is c u s s io n t o s e e h o w t h a t c a n b e d o n e . O n e w a y is th a t a f te r h a v i n g s t u d i e d it a n d w h e n h e is - h e c o u l d c o m e b a c k a t a la t e r s t a g e s o th a t h e t h e n s a y s t h i s - t h e s e a r e t h e 20 d i ff ic u l ti e s I h a v e w i t h i t a n d t h e n h e c a n b e - h i s v i e w s o r h i s c r i t ic i s m of it can be tested also. W e w i ll s e e . W e w i ll s e e h o w - h o w i t s h o u l d b e d e a l t w it h . W e w i ll t a lk la t e r. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O k a y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Hm. Page 166 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f y o u c o u l d ju s t m a k e a m e n ta l n o t e t h a t o n e o f t h e i s s u e s I w a s g o i n g t o r a i s e w i th y o u i n a n y e v e n t is th a t it i s o n ly t h e p r o j e c t p r o p o s a l t h a t y o u h a d w h e n y o u w e r e s i g n i n g th e agreement. The fe a s i b i li ty study and th e b u s in e s s plan are O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 d o c u m e n ts a n d t h o s e d o c u m e n ts y o u o n ly h a d i n y o u r p o s s e s s i o n m u c h la t e r. I a m ju s t g iv in g y o u t h is a s a m e n t a l n o t e to m a k e b e c a u s e t h a t i s w h e r e I w o u ld w a n t t o e n g a g e y o u o n … MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Thank you. 10 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N e x t ti m e w e d e a l w it h t h is is s u e . A s t h e C h a ir m a n d o e s n o t l ik e u s s u r p r i s i n g p e o p l e . So can we then come b a c k to w h e r e w e w e r e o r i g i n a l ly w h ic h w a s w i th t h e p h o t o g r a p h s th a t w e r e t a k e n i n A p r i l o f t h i s y e a r. Ar e y o u r e a d y ? T h a t t a k e s y o u b a c k t o p a g e 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 o f B u n d l e D f o r D o n a ld - R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e D f o r D o n a l d . Are you on page 1-3-5-7? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And you have of course photographs 1, t w o , t h r e e , fo u r, f iv e , s i x a n d s e v e n o n t h a t p a g e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O n t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) . 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: J u s t - n o I r e a l ly w il l j u s t f o c u s o n t h a t page … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O r m a y b e th e n e x t p a g e . H a v e y o u b e e n in s i d e t h i s fa c il i ty t h a t is d e p ic te d h e r e ? T h i s i s t h e m il k p r o c e s s i n g plant. Page 167 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s I h a v e b e e n C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u w e n t i n t o th e o n e t h a t b e l o n g e d t o P a r a s I ta k e i t w h e n y o u w e r e i n In d ia ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: How do the - how do the two compare? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h e s e w e r e th e p ic tu r e s I - I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t i t w a s ta k e n th is y e a r - 2 0 1 9 . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Correct. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 10 W h ic h i s a l m o s t f o u r to fi v e y e a r s a ft e r it h a s b e e n s e t u p . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b u t I - I t h i n k th e q u e s t io n r e l a t e s to w h e n y o u w e r e in s i d e t h e fa c i li ty in Vr e d e k n o w i n g h o w t h e P a r a s o n e i n In d i a lo o k e d li k e . H o w d id t h e t w o a t t h a t t i m e c o m p a r e ? I t h i n k t h a t is th e q u e s t io n . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir y e s . I am - I would - I would r e s p o n d to t h a t b e c a u s e … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: W h e n I w e n t to P a r a s I w e n t t o a c o m p le t e p r o j e c t … 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : A n d t h e Vr e d e P r o j e c t … CHAIRPERSON: Hm. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : W a s - is in c o m p l e t e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : S o i t w o u ld n o t b e a fa ir … Page 168 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m p a r is o n ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C o m p a r is o n . CHAIRPERSON: Hm. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h e n d i d y o u e x p e c t E s ti n a t o c o m p l e te a l l w o r k o n t h e m ilk p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir, w e - w e h a d a g r e e d t h a t t h i s w a s a t h r e e y e a r p la n a n d w h e n w e p u t e v e r y t h i n g i n - o n h o l d i t w a s in t h e s e c o n d - i n t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e s e c o n d y e a r. W e h a d e x p e c te d t h a t i n t h e t h ir d y e a r th e c o n s tr u c ti o n s a n d e v e r y t h i n g a n d th e 10 c o m m i s s io n i n g w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o m p l e t e d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: we had la s t week Friday B u t M r T h a b e th e o n e o f t h e d is c u s s i o n s was what you signed o ff on - on 18 January 2013 … M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d th a t w a s t h a t li s t o f it e m s u n d e r P h a s e 1 a n d w h a t w e d id o n F r i d a y w a s i n te r r o g a te w h e th e r y o u o u g h t t o h a v e s i g n e d o ff o n a ll - a l l o f t h o s e . R e m e m b e r ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t - t h a t w a s th e - t h e P h a s e 1 p a r t. 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o w h e r e y o u s a t is fi e d th a t i s w h a t t h a t d o c u m e n t i n d i c a t e d - t h e o n e w e l o o k e d a t o n Fr i d a y - i t i n d i c a t e d t h a t y o u w e r e s a tis f ie d th a t a ll t h e P h a s e 1 i t e m s h a d b e e n d e a l t w i th . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a i r t h e - t h e d o c u m e n t th a t w e w e n t t h r o u g h w a s t h e i n i t ia l 3 0 m i ll i o n a ll o c a t e d . Th a t i s th e d o c u m e n t t h a t w e w e n t t h r o u g h . I t - i t d i d n o t i n c lu d e t h is p a r t . Page 169 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I f u l ly a g r e e w i th y o u th a t th e m il k p r o c e s s in g p l a n t d i d n o t fo r m p a r t o f P h a s e 1 . It formed part of a d i ff e r e n t p h a s e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t th e p r o p o s i t io n I a m p u t ti n g t o y o u is t h e fo ll o w i n g : i f y o u w e r e s a ti s f i e d i n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 th a t P h a s e 1 w a s c o m p le t e w h a t w a s y o u r e x p e c t a ti o n g o in g f o r w a r d fr o m P h a s e 1 ? W h a t w a s th e n e x t t h i n g y o u w e r e e x p e c ti n g t o s e e h a p p e n a t th e f a r m ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 10 C h a ir I a m - I a m - b e c a u s e th e r e - t h e r e w a s m il e s t o n e s s e t a n d t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n w a s f o l lo w in g t h o s e m il e s t o n e s t h a t w e h a d s e t b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e v e r y c l e a r t h a t w h e n w e fi n i s h t h i s o n e t h i s w il l b e n e x t a n d t h is is t h e b u d g e t a l l o c a t e d fo r i t. B y t h e t i m e w h e n th is h a d h a p p e n e d it w a s n o t t o i ts c o m p le t io n s ta g e b e c a u s e w e - w e h a d a c h a l le n g e a n d w e h a d t o p u t t h e p r o j e c t o n h o l d . S o i t w a s n o t - t h is w a s n o t s i g n e d o ff b e c a u s e it w a s n o t c o m p le t e d . P h a s e 1 I a g r e e it w a s c o m p l e t e d a n d w e h a d g o n e through each last week. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is p a r ti c u l a r p r o j e c t th e s e c o n d p a r t a r e y o u s a y i n g t h e m ilk p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t f o r m e d p a r t o f P h a s e 2 ? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D o y o u r e c a l l w h a t th e ti m e li n e s w e r e f o r Phase 2 to be complete? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir I m a y h a v e t o g o b a c k to th e t o t h e m i l e s to n e s b e c a u s e th e y h a v e d a t e s a n d b u d g e t a l lo c a t io n s . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e r e a s o n I a s k i s b e c a u s e b e tw e e n t h e Page 170 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ti m e t h a t y o u s i g n e d o ff o n - o n t h e P h a s e 1 m il e s t o n e s a n d t h e ti m e t h a t E s ti n a l e ft t h e fa r m t h a t p e r i o d s p a n s m o r e t h a n a y e a r. W o u l d y o u agree with me? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h e - t h e p e r i o d th e y l e f t a n d t h e p e r i o d w h e n w e p u t t h e p r o je c t o n h o l d t h e r e a r e t w o a c ti v i ti e s t h a t h a p p e n e d . W e h a d p u t t h e p r o j e c t o n h o l d t h a t n o th i n g w a s h a p p e n i n g s o th a t w e c l e a r a l l th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s e v e r y t h i n g t h a t w a s d o n e a n d w e t h e n a s w e h a d p r o c e e d e d d u r i n g th e y e a r r e a l is e d t h a t fr o m t h e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e th e m o n e y t h a t w a s a ll o c a te d t o t h e 10 p r o j e c ts t h e y h a v e w i th d r a w n it t o s a y t h e y w il l n o l o n g e r m a k e i t a v a i la b le . H e n c e w e t h e n d e c i d e d t o te r m in a te t h e c o n tr a c t b e c a u s e w e w e r e n o lo n g e r g o i n g t o b e a b l e to m e e t o u r f in a n c i a l o b l ig a ti o n s . A t t h a t ti m e t h e p r o j e c t w a s - w e h a d p u t i t o n h o ld s o th a t w e c a n c o n c l u d e a n d a g r e e a n d d u r i n g t h a t p e r io d w h e n w e h a d p u t it o n h o ld o n e o f t h e f u n d e r s w h i c h w a s N a t io n a l A g r i c u l t u r e p u ll e d o u t. T h e y w r o t e to u s a n d s a i d th e y w e r e w i t h d r a w in g t h e ir a l lo c a t io n f r o m t h e p r o j e c t o n th e b a s is th a t t h e y h a d r e c e i v e d a l e t te r fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y t h a t w e h a d e n te r e d i n t o a n i ll e g a l a g r e e m e n t 20 w h ic h N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y w a s a t th a t s ta g e b u s y w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: a l lo c a t io n . Ye s in d e e d . C U S P d i d w it h d r a w i ts In f a c t I a m j u s t lo o k in g a t t w o l e t t e r s h e r e a n d tr y i n g to fi n d th e d a te . O n 2 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 y o u - M r T h a b e t h e - w e r e - a l e t t e r w a s - w a s d i r e c t e d to y o u a n d t h e t i tl e i s : “ T h e I n te n ti o n t o W i t h h o ld Q u a r te r Tw o A ll o c a t i o n s Page 171 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 o f C U S P a n d Il i m a /L e ts e m a fo r 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 . ” S o th a t l e t te r w a s s i g n e d o n 2 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . I - I a g r e e C h a ir. I d id r e c e iv e t h a t le t t e r. T h i s - t h is l e tt e r w a s p r e c e d e d b y a l e t te r th a t c a m e fr o m N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y t o N a t i o n a l A g r ic u l t u r e i n fo r m in g t h e m t h a t t h e y s h o u l d w it h d r a w. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t t h e fa c t o f t h e m a t te r - p le a s e c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g - th e f a c t o f th e m a t t e r is y o u h a d a lr e a d y b e e n a l lo c a t e d y o u r C U S P m o n e y f o r th e p e r i o d 2 0 1 2 /2 0 1 3 ? 10 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d s o i t w o u l d o n ly h a v e b e e n i n - i f t h is le t t e r w a s w r i t t e n i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 y o u w o u l d h a v e - 2 0 1 3 - y o u h a v e b e e n g iv e n y o u r a l lo c a t io n f o r t h e 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 y e a r. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o y o u h a d e n o u g h m o n e y fr o m C U S P i n t e r m s o f th e i r a ll o c a ti o n s o f c o u r s e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To r u n f o r t h a t fi n a n c i a l y e a r ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 20 A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u o n l y s t a r t e d r u n n i n g i n t o d i ff ic u l ti e s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t a s o f A p r i l 2 0 1 4 . I s t h a t th e n e w fi n a n c i a l y e a r ? H a v e I g o t i t r i g h t? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . I a m - I a m t r y i n g t o t h i n k C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I think so. I think so Mr - I think I have it r ig h t b e c a u s e y o u h a d - t h i s l e t t e r i s d a te d 2 0 1 3 . Ye s . A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 . Page 172 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u h a d e n o u g h m o n e y u n ti l t h e e n d o f M a r c h 2 0 1 4 . Th e n e w f i n a n c i a l y e a r w o u l d h a v e s ta r t e d i n A p r il 2 0 1 4 . S o t h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e g i v e n y o u y o u r C U S P a l lo c a t io n - n o t f o r Vr e d e in - i n A p r il 2 0 1 4 . D o e s t h a t s o u n d r i g h t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o , n o C h a ir. L ik e - l ik e s h e - s h e s a y s t h e l e tt e r t o m e fr o m N a t io n a l w a s s e n t o n 2 1 A u g u s t . T h e y w e r e r e fe r r i n g to t h e b u d g e t a ll o c a ti o n o f t h a t fi n a n c i a l y e a r i n q u e s t io n . T h e y w e r e w i t h h o l d i n g - th e y w e r e s a y in g y o u s h o u l d n o t s p e n d t h a t 10 m o n e y i n to Vr e d e D a ir y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o t h e y a c t u a ll y s t o p p e d y o u f r o m s p e n d in g i t i n t h a t fi n a n c i a l y e a r ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t h o u g h t th a t w h a t th e y h a d d o n e w a s l e t y o u d o w h a t y o u n e e d e d to d o i n th a t f in a n c i a l y e a r b u t i n t h e fo ll o w i n g y e a r l i m it t h e ir c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n ts to o t h e r p r o j e c ts n o t t o Vr e d e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t - i t - C h a ir t h e y - t h e y s t o p p e d i t i n t h a t fi n a n c i a l y e a r. T h e y s a id t h e y a r e w i t h h o l d - w it h h o l d i n g i t m e a n s w e - w e s h o u l d n o t s p e n d i n Vr e d e D a ir y a n d th e n t h e y l a t e r r e l e a s e d 20 t h e m o n e y t h a t w e s h o u l d s p e n d in th e p r o v i n c e i n o th e r p r o j e c ts o t h e r t h a n Vr e d e D a ir y b e c a u s e it w a s a lr e a d y i n o u r b u d g e t i n t h e p r o v i n c e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h a t w e a r e r e a l ly e x p lo r i n g - w e m u s t n o t l o s e tr a c k o f t h a t - w h a t w e a r e r e a l ly e x p lo r i n g i s w h a t c o u l d E s ti n a h a v e d o n e a n d c o m p l e te d b e fo r e th e y l e f t i n - th e c a n c e ll a ti o n o f that contract was 13 August 2014 … Page 173 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : Ye s . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B e f o r e t h e y le f t i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 . Th a t i s r e a l ly w h a t w e a r e d e b a t in g a n d a s p a r t o f t h a t d e b a t e w e a r e l o o k i n g a t w h a t m o n ie s w e r e a v a i la b le ? W h a t r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s la y w i th E s ti n a ? W h a t o th e r r e s p o n s ib il i ti e s l a y w i th t h e d e p a r t m e n t ? A m I - a r e w e o n the same page? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. Th a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. W e - w e h a d p u t t h e p r o j e c t o n h o l d . T h a t is - t h a t - b e c a u s e w e d i d b e c a u s e w h e n w e - w e s ta r t e d t o h a v e p r o b l e m s w e w e r e a d v is e d n o t t o 10 p r o c e e d s p e n d i n g o n t h e p r o j e c t . H e n c e w e h a d p u t i t o n h o l d p e n d in g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n th a t w a s g o i n g o n . S o w e w o u l d n o t t h e n b e u n d e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n a t t h e s a m e ti m e w e p r o c e e d w i th t h e i m p l e m e n t a ti o n o f t h e p r o j e c t . S o w e a ll o w e d t h a t t h e p r o j e c t i n v e s ti g a t i o n s h o u l d g o th r o u g h a n d - a n d t h a t w e - w e p u t i t o n h o ld . S o t h e r e w a s n o w a y th a t t h e y w o u l d th e n p r o c e e d lik e e v e r y t h i n g is n o r m a l . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: But that of course ought not to have i m p a c te d o n E s t i n a ’s c o n tr ib u ti o n t o th e p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t . A m I r i g h t w h a t h a p p e n e d w it h C U S P ? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I a g r e e C h a ir b u t th e q u e s ti o n w a s n o t o n t h e C U S P a l lo c a t io n . I t w a s o n th e e n t ir e p r o j e c t . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I - I h a v e a p a r t ic u l a r i n t e r e s t i n t h e m i lk p r o c e s s in g p l a n t b e c a u s e - a n d c o r r e c t m e if I a m w r o n g . My u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t m ilk p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t w a s g o i n g t o b e b u i lt u s in g E s ti n a ’s m o n e y ? Page 174 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I a g r e e C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h a t i s t h e s a m e m i lk p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t t h a t i s d e p ic t e d i n t h e p h o to g r a p h s o n p a g e 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir, I - I h e a r w h a t s h e is s a y i n g b u t b e c a u s e o f t h e c h a l le n g e s a n d t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t w a s g o in g o n w e d e c i d e d t o p u t a ll th e a c tiv i ti e s o n s i te o n h o ld . W h e t h e r i t w a s o u r p a r t o r t h e ir p a r t . W e s a i d l e t u s w a i t u n ti l w e - e v e r y t h i n g is c l e a r e d t h e n w e w i ll t h e n p r o c e e d . S o w h a t I a m tr y in g t o e x p l a i n is t h a t w e - w e d id n o t s a y w e 10 a r e p u t ti n g o n ly w h a t w e w e r e d o in g a n d l e t th e m p r o c e e d w i t h w h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g b e c a u s e i f - i f I w o u l d h a v e a c h a ll e n g e o f n o t c o m p le t in g th e d a ir y t h e n i t w i ll i m p a c t o n t h e p r o c e s s in g p l a n t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: W h a t w e c a n a g r e e o n th o u g h I t r u s t M r T h a b e t h e is t h a t t h i s m i lk p r o c e s s in g p l a n t h a s n e v e r e v e r o p e r a te d ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I t - i t w o u l d n o t C h a ir b e c a u s e i t w a s n o t c o m p le t e d . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d w h a t w e c a n a g r e e o n a s w e l l i s th a t t h e s p e c i fic a t io n s f o r t h i s m ilk p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t w e r e n o t m o n i to r e d b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t? 20 M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o t h e s p e c i f ic a ti o n s f o r b u il d i n g t h i s p l a n t t h o s e w e r e n o t m o n i to r e d b y th e d e p a r t m e n t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ja. Chair I am - because there was a d e s i g n t h a t w a s p r o v i d e d o f b u il d i n g i t w h ic h w e h a d lo o k e d a t i t a n d a n d a g r e e d o n i t . S o I w o u l d n o t a g r e e t h a t w e h a d n o t lo o k e d in t o t h e Page 175 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 d e s i g n s o f t h e p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t. W e h a v e . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Mr T h a b e t h e w h e n i s t h e la s t ti m e y o u w a lk e d i n t o t h is f a c ili t y a s - a s u n f i n is h e d a s i t i s ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : I - I h a d g o n e i n t o i t C h a ir w h e n t h e y w e r e b u s y w i th th e c o n s tr u c ti o n a n d I h a d g o n e i n t o i t a ft e r th e p r o j e c t w a s p u t o n h o ld . I t h i n k t h e l a s t ti m e I w o u l d h a v e w e n t i n to t h e p r o j e c t it c o u l d h a v e b e e n a r o u n d 2 0 - 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 C h a ir. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u r - y o u r i m p r e s s i o n o f w h a t y o u s a w is i m p o r t a n t. D o y o u th in k th a t a n y t h in g c a n b e d o n e w i t h th is s tr u c t u r e 10 a n d i ts c o n t e n ts a s it c u r r e n t ly s ta n d s o r a s y o u s a w - la s t s a w i t i n 2016? C a n t h i s s ti ll b e c o m p l e te d o r s h o u l d t h e w h o l e th i n g ju s t b e p u ll e d d o w n ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : J a . C h a ir, I - I s t il l b e li e v e t h a t t h e t h e p r o j e c t c a n s til l b e t u r n e d a r o u n d f o r i m p le m e n t a ti o n . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I - I r e a l ly w a n t t o b e v e r y s p e c if ic t o th e m il k p r o c e s s i n g p l a n t b e c a u s e y o u c o r r e c t ly s a y t h e t w o a r e d is t in c t r e a l ly. M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : O k a y. A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o l e t u s f o c u s ju s t o n th e m i lk p r o c e s s in g 20 p l a n t f o r n o w. W h a t i s y o u r v i e w o n t h i s b u il d in g ? T h e s e a r e s o m e o f t h e r o o ms in s i d e t h a t b ig w a r e h o u s e . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : C h a ir w h a t - w h a t - m y - m y r e s p o n s e t o t h a t i t w i ll - w il l b e - i f - i f w e w o u ld w a n t t o a s s e s s t h e c u r r e n t s t a tu s a n d o n c e th e c u r r e n t s t a t u s h a s b e e n a s s e s s e d y o u w o u l d b e a b l e t o b e p r o v id e d w i th c o s t i m p li c a t io n s o t h a t y o u d o y o u r p r o p e r Page 176 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 c a l c u l a ti o n w h e t h e r y o u d e c i d e y e s i n d e e d . L e t u s p r o c e e d w i t h t h e p r o j e c t o r n o w e c a n n o t p r o c e e d w i th t h e p r o j e c t b e c a u s e i t - i t i s v e r y c r i t ic a l t h a t y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t fi n a n c i a l a s s e s s m e n t b u t a t - a t th e f a c e v a l u e I - I b e li e v e t h a t m o r e w a s a l r e a d y s p e n t o n p u t t in g u p t h e s tr u c t u r e . L e s s w o u l d b e r e q u ir e d in m a k i n g i t o p e r a t io n a l . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S e e i n g t h a t y o u v e n tu r e d to th e o t h e r h a lf o f t h e p r o j e c t t h e r e s t o f t h e d a ir y f a r m a g a i n a s a t y o u r l a s t v is i t t o t h e farm. 10 W h a t is y o u r - y o u r v i e w ? c o m m e r c ia ll y v i a b le I s i t - is i t lik e ly t o b e c o m e o r w i ll i t a lw a y s h a v e t o b e s u p p o r t e d b y Government? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h a t p r o j e c t c a n s t il l b e m a d e v ia b le . Th a t - t h a t is m y b e l ie f a n d u n d e r s t a n d i n g . W h y I a m s a y i n g s o C h a ir w h il e w e h a d p u t th e p r o j e c t o n - o n i c e t h e r e w a s a lo t o f p e o p l e w h o h a d i n te r e s t fr o m t h e p r iv a t e s e c t o r b e c a u s e t h e y - t h e y w e r e h a p p y w i t h t h e i n fr a s tr u c tu r e t h a t w a s s e t u p . T h a t c a m e a n d s a y s e e in g th a t G o v e r n m e n t is n o t m o v in g w i t h t h i s p r o j e c t w h y d o y o u n o t d i s p o s e i t . W h e n C h a ir, I k n o w I a m ju m p i n g t h e g u n , w h e n w e w e r e r e q u e s t in g t h e F r e e S t a te D e v e lo p m e n t C o r p o r a t io n 20 t o m a n a g e t h e p r o je c t w e h a d a ls o r e q u e s t e d t h a t w e s h o u l d l o o k a t o p t io n s . A t t h a t t i m e I h a d t h r e e o p ti o n s in m i n d . O n e o p ti o n w a s t o d is p o s e t h e p r o j e c t a n d r e c o v e r th e m o n e y, d is p o s e i t m e a n s w e s e l l i t, t h a t w il l b e o n e d e c is i o n t h a t th e S t a t e m ig h t t a k e . S e c o n d l y it w o u l d be to r e v i t a l is e th e project for the b e n e fi t of the farmers as b e n e fic i a r i e s , th a t w a s th e s e c o n d o p t io n , b u t th a t w il l t h e n r e q u ir e t h a t Page 177 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 g o v e r n m e n t m u s t m a k e f in a n c i a l r e s o u r c e s a v a i la b le fo r t h e m t o b e n e fi t . M y t h ir d , t h o s e w e r e t h in g s o n my m in d , w a s t o s a y b e c a u s e t h e c a p a c i t y t h a t y o u r e q u ir e th e r e i s v e r y h i g h - te c h , t h a t w e l o o k a r o u n d a n d w e fi n d a s tr a t e g i c p a r tn e r th a t w i ll b e i n t e r e s te d t o j o i n tl y work on the project with the farmers. N o w th a t is w h a t I t h o u g h t w e c o u l d d o , b e c a u s e w e h a d i n v e s t e d in t h e p r o j e c t a n d th e p r o je c t i s t h e r e , a n d i t c a n b e tu r n e d a r o u n d to o p e r a te . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 Mr T h a b e th e y o u s p e a k o f th e in v o lv e m e n t o f t h e F D C , p l e a s e j u s t h e lp u s u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e ir r o le w a s w h e n y o u a p p o in t e d t h e m , I k n o w t h e y w e r e a p p o in t e d o n t h e 1 4 t h of August 2014. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ye s . H e l p u s u n d e r s t a n d t h e ir r o l e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a , C h a ir w e h a d r e q u e s te d t h e Fr e e S t a te D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n to m a n a g e th e p r o j e c t , t h i s is w h a t w a s k e y b e c a u s e th e r e w e r e c a t t le , t h e r e w a s m i lk i n g g o in g o n , o n t h e project. S o w h o d i d n ’ t t h e n a f t e r w e h a v e te r m i n a te d t h e c o n tr a c t o f E s ti n a a n d l e a v e t h e p r o j e c t w i th o u t a n y b o d y a t t e n d in g t o i t , s o w e h a d 20 r e q u e s t e d , b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e a s s e ts a l s o t h e r e , a n d i f y o u d o n o t h a v e a n y b o d y m a n a g in g th o s e a s s e ts w h i c h w e b e li e v e th e y b e l o n g t o t h e fa r m e r t h e n y o u w o u l d h a v e a p r o b le m o f t h a t – i n t h a t s i tu a ti o n . H e n c e th e n w e h a d m a d e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o th e Ex e c u ti v e C o u n c il t h a t w e a p p o in t FD C t o m a n a g e t h a t p r o j e c t , u n til s u c h t i m e t h a t a d e c is i o n is ta k e n . Page 178 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o w M r R o y J e n c k e ls o n in h is e v i d e n c e b r o u g h t i t t o t h e C h a ir m a n ’s a t t e n t io n t h a t y o u w e r e p a y i n g t h e F D C s o m e t h i n g i n t h e r e g io n o f R 1 mi ll i o n a m o n t h to m a n a g e t h is p r o j e c t . I s t h a t fi g u r e f a m il ia r ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a i r w e h a d m a d e a v a il a b l e t o th e F D C a n a m o u n t o f R 2 0 m il li o n fr o m th e D e p a r t m e n t t o a s s i s t u s i n m a n a g in g t h e p r o j e c t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: R 2 0 m ill i o n t o c o v e r w h a t p e r i o d M r T h a b e th e ? 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir w e h a d a ll o c a te d , w e h a d s a i d t o t h e m C h a ir i f w e w e r e to g o to t h e a g r e e m e n t w e h a v e e n t e r e d i n to , b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t w a n t n o w to s a y t h in g s w h i c h w e r e n o t p a r t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t , w e h a d m a d e a n a g r e e m e n t . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: . . .w i th t h e F D C t h a t w h a t t h e y s h o u l d a c h i e v e in m a n a g in g t h e p r o j e c t , b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t w e h a d a s k e d th e m t o l o o k a t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Just before we go to that can I get some c la r i ty o n o n e a s p e c t , t h e F D C w a s b r o u g h t i n a s a n i m p le m e n ti n g 20 a g e n t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h e F D C w a s s i m p l y a p p o i n te d b y y o u r s e l f , th e y d i d n o t g o t h r o u g h a n y c o m p e ti ti v e p r o c e s s ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: N o C h a ir. E x p l a i n t h e r e a s o n f o r th a t . Page 179 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: O u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t t h e Fr e e S t a te D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t io n is t h e S t a te o w n e d e n t e r p r is e , w h i c h m i g h t m e a n t h a t th e S t a te c a n a ll o c a te d u t ie s a n d r e s p o n s i b i li t ie s t o t h is S t a t e o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e a n d t h e n a l lo c a te t h e m t h e b u d g e t to d o s o . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Th a t ’s a v e r y n o v e l w a y o f a p p r o a c h i n g i t b e c a u s e t h e F D C ’s c o r e c o m p e t e n c y w a s n o t i n a g r i c u l tu r e w a s i t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a i r t h e FD C is r e s p o n s ib l e f o r I w o u ld s a y s m a ll b u s in e s s d e v e l o p m e n t a c r o s s , i t w o u l d n o t b e s p e c if ic t o s a y o n ly i n t h e s e a r e a s , s o w e w e r e l o o k i n g a c r o s s in t e r m s o f 10 a s s is ti n g s m a l l b u s i n e s s d e v e l o p m e n t. I f I m a y g o b a c k a l it t le b i t C h a ir w h e n FD C w a s fo r m e d th e r e w a s a m a l g a m a ti o n o f d i ff e r e n t p r o g r a m s o f w h ic h o n e o f t h e m w a s w h a t w e h a d c a ll e d a n a g r ic u l t u r a l development corporation in the previous a d m i n i s t r a t io n , so we u n d e r s t o o d i t th a t th e y w o u l d a s s is t i n a ll r e s p e c t s o f b u s i n e s s d e v e l o p m e n t a n d w e u n d e r s t o o d Vr e d e D a ir y t o b e a b u s i n e s s a n d h e n c e w e t h e n a l lo c a t e d i t t o t h e m . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o j u s t c la r i fy t h is i n te r ms o f w h i c h p r e s c r i p t w o u l d y o u th e n h a v e a p p o i n te d t h e FD C ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: 20 C h a ir a g a i n w e w e n t to t h e S t a t e L a w A d v is o r s , t o d e a l w i th t h is , w h ic h th e y a d v i s e d u s a n d t h e y a l s o a s s is t e d u s i n d r a f ti n g t h a t a g r e e m e n t , s o w e t o o k i t th a t t h e y v e r y f a m ili a r w i th t h e p r e s c r ip t s th a t w e r e o p e r a ti n g b e c a u s e th e y l o o k e d a t t h a t , s o th e y a s s is te d u s a n d t h e y a d v is e d t h a t – th e n w e d r a f t e d t h a t agreement w h ic h we th e n s ig n e d with C o r p o r a ti o n . Page 180 of 194 th e State Development 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: R e a l ly M r T h a b e th e w i t h a ll d u e r e s p e c t y o u c a n n o t p a s s t h e b u c k a ll t h e ti m e w h e n y o u a r e t h e H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t, y o u h a v e to ta k e r e s p o n s i b i li ty f o r s o m e t h i n g s , y o u h a v e t o in t e r r o g a t e c e r t a i n t h i n g s . Yo u c a n n o t s a y a d v i s e d , l a w y e r s a d v is e , y o u t a k e th e f i n a l d e c is i o n , t h a t is h o w i t o p e r a t e s i n th e p r iv a t e s p h e r e a n d i n t h e p u b lic s p h e r e a s in G o v e r n m e n t, s o y o u h a d d e c is io n s t o t a k e , m u c h a s y o u m i g h t b e g e t ti n g a d v i c e f r o m la w y e r s , s o I fi n d i t d i ff ic u l t to a c c e p t a n a n s w e r t h a t s a y s o u r la w y e r s t o o k c a r e o f a l l o f t h is . T h a t is th e e s s e n c e o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g . 10 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir t h e a c t i o n o f t h e S t a te L a w A d v is o r s i s t h e a c t io n o f th e D e p a r t m e n t , t h a t is h o w I u n d e r s t a n d i t . I n r e s p o n d in g th a t w a y I w a s r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t w a s s a y in g d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e p r e s c r i p t s , w e r e th e y a l lo w i n g y o u , h e n c e I w e n t t o c o n s u l t s o th a t t h e y a s s is t a n d a d v is e . They would h a v e s a i d i f i t w a s n o t n o d o n o t g o th a t d i r e c t io n , s o m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t t h e y h a d l o o k e d a t th a t a n d t h e y h a d s a id i t is p o s s ib le , it c o u l d be done. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: D o y o u r e c a l l w h ic h p r e s c r i p ts t h e y s a i d t h e y r e li e d o n ? 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir t h a t w a s n o t d is c l o s e d t o m e , b e c a u s e a l l t h a t I n e e d e d w h e t h e r i t w a s p o s s ib l e , i f it w a s p o s s i b l e t h e n w e s h o u l d b e a s s is te d to d r a f t t h a t a g r e e m e n t , w h ic h th e y d i d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u s e e t h e d i ffic u l t y I h a v e i s t h a t y o u a r e n o w t a k in g fu n d s th a t a r e m a d e a v a il a b l e t o y o u r D e p a r t m e n t a n d u s i n g t h o s e f u n d s t o p a y o v e r to a d i ff e r e n t e n t i ty t h a t i s y o u r n e w Page 181 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t w i th o u t t h e r e b e i n g a c l e a r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h e th e r the supply chain management p r e s c r ip ts would apply to t h is i m p l e m e n ti n g a g e n t y o u h a v e b r o u g h t i n , o n e . Tw o , w it h o u t th e r e b e in g a c l e a r u n d e r s t a n d in g o n t h e d e g r e e o f s u b - d e l e g a t io n o r s u b c o n tr a c ti n g o f s e r v ic e s th a t th a t e n ti ty is e n ti tl e d t o e m b a r k o n . T h r e e , it t h e n p u ts in t o q u e s t io n y o u r o v e r s i g h t r o l e a s a D e p a r t m e n t . Am I e x p l a i n in g m y d i ffic u l t i e s c l e a r l y ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir I h e a r w h a t s h e is p u t t in g across. 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: W e h a d I t h i n k th e c o n tr a c t t h a t w e h a d e n t e r e d i n t o b e t w e e n u s a n d F D C w a s v e r y c le a r w h a t w e e x p e c te d t h e m t o d o , n o w w e d i d n o t g i v e r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a n d w e d id n o t a ll o c a t e a b u d g e t fo r t h e m t o d o s o , b e c a u s e i t w a s o u r r e s p o n s i b i li t y t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e p r o j e c t i s b e i n g m a n a g e d , a n d h e n c e w e e n t e r e d in t o a n a g r e e m e n t s o th a t n o b o d y c o m e s a n d s a y b u t I d o n o t k n o w w h a t i s m y r o l e , w e h a v e c l e a r e d th a t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: P l e a s e t u r n t o th e c o u r t r e c o r d b u n d le I d o n ’t t h in k w e h a v e u s e d i t to d a y, s o i f y o u g o t o t h e c o u r t r e c o r d 20 bundle page 760. CHAIRPERSON: A or B? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: If I can ask the page again? 7 6 0 , a n d t h is t i m e t h e b l a c k n u m b e r i n g Page 182 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 is a li g n e d to t h e r e d n u m b e r in g . A r e y o u r e a d y ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: I think you said B. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I d i d s a y B C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , 7 6 0 ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 7 6 0 C h a ir m a n . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10 S o y o u h a v e i t b e f o r e y o u M r T h a b e th e ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: That is correct. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d h e r e a g a i n i t is a n a g r e e m e n t e n t e r e d in t o b y t h e D e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e Fr e e S t a t e D e v e lo p m e n t C o r p o r a ti o n . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Yo u h a d w a n t e d t o ta k e u s t h r o u g h h o w e v e r b r i e fly t h e o b li g a ti o n s o f th e p a r ti e s w h ic h y o u w i ll fi n d o n 762, page 762. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a i r th a t is i t e m n u m b e r t h r e e o b li g a ti o n s o f t h e p a r t i e s . I w i ll r e a d fr o m it e m 3 . 1 g o i n g d o w n . CHAIRPERSON: Which ones do you – Ms Gcabashe do you want him 20 to read? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: H e h a d w a n te d to e x p l a i n t h a t th e r e a r e d is t in c t o b l i g a t io n s t h a t e a c h p a r ty w o u l d h a v e C h a ir m a n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: A n d s o I w a s g iv i n g h i m t h e o p p o r tu n it y b y g iv i n g h i m t h e d o c u m e n t t o l o o k a t. Page 183 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ye s C h a ir t h a t – I a m n o t s u r e if I read through into the records. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u d o n ’t n e e d to , i f y o u c a n j u s t e x p la i n , i f y o u w a n t e d t o r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y th e n y o u c a n j u s t e x p l a i n w h a t y o u n e e d t o e x p la in . M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: Ye s C h a ir, w h a t w e h a d r e q u e s t e d t h e F D C t o d o , b e c a u s e t o g e t h e r w i t h t h is a g r e e m e n t t h e r e w a s a ls o a lis t o f a s s e t s th a t w e n t w i th i t . 10 S o w e h a d c le a r ly o u t li n e d w h a t w e h a d e x p e c te d F D C t o d o w h ic h w a s m a n a g i n g t h e p r o j e c t c l e a r ly i d e n t i fy i n g t h e a s s e ts a n d a ll t h o s e th i n g s , s o i f w e w o u l d h a v e h a d a p r o b l e m w i t h a n y o f t h e a s s e t s w e w o u ld b e a b le t o g o b a c k t o Es t in a t o s a y b u t w e h a v e a p r o b l e m h e r e , w e a r e n o t a g r e e i n g w i t h y o u r l is t o f a s s e ts th a t y o u h a v e h a n d e d o v e r, t h e fo ll o w i n g th i n g s t h a t w e r e p a r t h e r e w e r e m is s i n g a n d s o o n , s o w e h a d a l s o a g r e e d w i t h t h a t , w i t h th e F D C , a n d C h a ir I t h i n k t h is is w h a t I w a n t e d t o e x p l a i n th a t w e h a d m a d e it v e r y c le a r t o t h e FD C w h a t w e h a d e x p e c te d th e m t o d o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 20 I fi n d t h a t l a s t e x p l a n a t io n a li t tl e d i ff ic u l t t o u n d e r s t a n d , y o u d i d n o t m o n i t o r E s ti n a a s a n i m p le m e n ti n g a g e n t, a s I h a v e u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e , a m I c o r r e c t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No Chair we did. A ll y o u g o t fr o m th e m w e r e r e p o r t s , m o n th ly r e p o r t s , q u a r t e r ly r e p o r ts , b u t y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e a n y i d e a s t o h o w m a n y c a t tl e w e r e a t t h e d a ir y a t a n y o n e t i m e , w o u l d y o u ? Page 184 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir those r e p o r ts were v e r i fic a ti o n s t o u s t o s a y i f y o u g o o n s i t e t h is is w h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n h a p p e n in g , b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t w e w o u l d th e n u s e t o s a y w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d , h o w f a r a r e y o u a n d th e n t h e y w i ll g iv e u s th e r e p o r t a n d y o u t h e n u s e t h e r e p o r t f o r .. . [ in d i s ti n c t ] p u r p o s e s , th a t ’s w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d w h y w e th e n r e q u e s t e d t o g iv e u s m o n t h l y a n d q u a r t e r l y r e p o r ts . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: CHAIRPERSON: N o w . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] S o , s o , s o w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g is – i s w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g th a t y o u u s e d t h e r e p o r t s t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d to k e e p y o u r s e l f 10 a b r e a s t o f w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g , a n d t o t h e n w h e r e n e c e s s a r y d e c i d e i f y o u w a n t t o g o a n d s e e w h e th e r w h a t th e r e p o r ts t e l l y o u is w h a t t h e s i tu a ti o n is o n t h e g r o u n d ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: CHAIRPERSON: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. B u t d i d y o u e v e r g o t o s e e f o r y o u r s e l f w h e th e r t h e r e p o r t s w e r e t e ll in g y o u t h e c o r r e c t p o s i ti o n ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Th a t ’s t r u e C h a ir, I d id . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: H o w o ft e n w o u l d y o u g o M r T h a b e th e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E: P e r s o n a l ly m y s e l f C h a ir I w o u l d v e r y in fr e q u e n tly g o . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: In f r e q u e n tl y ? C H A I R P E R S O N : In fr e q u e n tly ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: I n fr e q u e n tly m y s e l f . Page 185 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: Ta k i n g t h a t t h e n t h e r e w o u ld b e o th e r o ffic i a l th a t w i ll g o m o r e fr e q u e n t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Yo u s e e I a s k th e q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e w e h a v e w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e c o m e h e r e t o s a y c a t tl e w e r e b e i n g s t o l e n fr o m t h e f a r m , f e e d w a s b e i n g s t o l e n fr o m t h e f a r m , m i lk w a s s o l d i n t o w n , a n d t h e r e w a s a q u e s t io n m a r k a b o u t w h e th e r th a t m ilk w a s b e i n g s o l d l e g i ti m a t e l y o r n o t , a n d t h is is w h y I a s k o r I m a k e t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t d id n o t m o n i t o r t h is p r o j e c t c l o s e l y w h il e E s ti n a 10 w a s t h e i m p l e m e n t in g a g e n t. MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a , C h a ir th e fa c t th a t t h in g s w e r e h a p p e n in g d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r ily m e a n w e w e r e n o t m o n i t o r i n g . p u t o n e e x a m p le . Let me A f t e r w e h a d d o n e t h e p h y s ic a l v e r i f ic a t i o n o f th e c a t tl e th e r e w a s a t i m e w h e n w e r e a lis e d t h a t c a t tl e w e r e m i s s i n g , n o t a l l th e c a t t le w e r e t h e r e . T h e m i s s in g o f t h e c a tt l e d o e s n o t m e a n th a t w e d i d n o t v e r i f y b e c a u s e if t h e y w e r e s to le n , t h e y w e r e s t o l e n b u t w e k n e w t h a t t h e r e w a s a p r o b l e m t h e v e r if i c a ti o n o f t h e c a t tl e w e r e n o t enough. ` 20 S o w h a t I a m t r y i n g t o s a y i s th a t o u r p h y s ic a l v e r i fi c a t io n m a y n o t m e a n t h a t w e d i d n o t k n o w t h o s e t h i n g s , i f w e d id n o t k n o w i t w i ll m e a n th a t w e w e r e n o t a w a r e w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g o n t h e g r o u n d , s o w e k n e w w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g o n th e g r o u n d . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I h a v e m y d o u b ts th a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t k n e w w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g a t E s ti n a a n d t h is is w h y I h a v e a d i ff ic u l t e v e n w i t h th e i n v e n t o r y l is t t h a t th e F D C p r e p a r e d , t h e y a r r iv e d , t h e y Page 186 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 c o u n t e d w h a t a s s e t s t h e y c o u l d , m a d e a li s t , t h e r e w a s n o l is t t h a t y o u c o u l d c o m p a r e t h e F D C l is t w i th w h e n t h e F D C h a d c o m p l e t e d t h e ir e x e r c is e . Te l l m e d i ffe r e n tl y i f t h e r e w a s . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a C h a i r I a m n o t s u r e w h ic h li s t s h e is r e f e r r i n g . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: S o y o u h a v e to l d u s t h a t t h e r e w a s a n in v e n to r y l is t th a t t h e FD C p r e p a r e d . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: N o C h a ir, t h e i n v e n t o r y l is t w a s p r e p a r e d b y E s t i n a o n th e h a n d o v e r. S o t h is lis t w a s g i v e n to F D C s o 10 t h a t t h e F D C to g e th e r w i th th e D e p a r t m e n t w e n t t o d o v e r if ic a ti o n o f w h a t Es t in a h a d s a i d th e s e a r e t h e a s s e ts s o t h a t w h e n w e h a n d th e m o v e r t o F D C t h e y k n o w a n d t h e y h a v e v e r if ie d t h e m s e lv e s t h a t i n d e e d w h a t w a s o n t h e p a p e r a n d w h a t t h e y w e r e r e c e iv in g w a s t h e r e . Th a t ’s what we did. S o th a t li s t w a s p r e p a r e d a n d g i v e n t o u s b y Es t in a . Then we t o o k t h a t li s t t o g e th e r w i t h F D C , v e r i f ie d t h e l is t a n d h a n d e d t h e m o v e r to FDC. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: P l e a s e g o t o p a g e 7 6 9 o f th e s a m e c o u r t r e c o r d b u n d l e , i t j u s t f o l lo w s o n fr o m w h a t w e ’r e l o o k i n g a t , a n d y o u a r e 20 s a y in g t h a t th is d o c u m e n t w a s p r e p a r e d b y E s t i n a ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir w e p r e p a r e d t h a t d o c u m e n t b u t t h e i n v e n to r y lis t c o n t a in e d in t h e d o c u m e n t w a s p r o v id e d b y E s ti n a to u s , a n d t h e n w e p r e p a r e d t h is h a n d o v e r o f a s s e t d o c u m e n t . ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: If y o u lo o k a t p a g e 7 7 1 y o u t h e r e h a v e a d e t a i l e d lis t o f a s s e t s b e i n g h a n d e d o v e r o n A u g u s t 1 2 2 0 1 4 . Page 187 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A r e y o u s a y in g t h i s l is t w a s p r e p a r e d b y E s ti n a ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: w a s a c o m p l e te l is t ? T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. H o w w o u l d y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h is li s t H o w w o u l d y o u k n o w w h e t h e r a l l t h e a s s e ts t h a t h a d b e e n p u r c h a s e d w it h g o v e r n m e n t m o n e y w e r e r e c o r d e d o n t h i s li s t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir o n a m o n th ly b a s is w e w e r e r e c e i v i n g r e p o r ts o n w h a t h a s b e e n 10 done, and what has been p u r c h a s e d , s o o u r a s s e s s m e n t o f t h i s l is t w a s t o v e r i fy a n d j u s t c h e c k if e v e r y t h i n g th a t w a s in t h e m o n th ly r e p o r t in d e e d w a s i n th e a s s e t r e g is t e r. CHAIRPERSON: W e l l th a t c o u l d n o t b e a d e q u a t e M r T h a b e t h e , t h a t c o u l d n o t b e a d e q u a te c o u ld i t, b e c a u s e if t h e r e p o r ts t h e m s e l v e s o n w h ic h y o u r e li e d d i d n o t h a v e c o r r e c t i n f o r m a ti o n t h e n y o u w o u l d n o t k n o w. T h e o n l y w a y t o k n o w w o u l d b e t o h a v e g o n e to th e fa r m i ts e l f a n d p h y s ic a ll y c h e c k t h a t – a n d n o t j u s t a t th e e n d , w i t h t h e h a n d o v e r, b u t a s t h e r e p o r ts , m o n t h l y r e p o r ts w e r e c o m in g to h a v e – t o m a k e s u r e t h a t fr o m t i m e to t i m e y o u g o a n d c h e c k w h e t h e r w h a t t h e r e p o r t s a r e 20 t e ll i n g y o u , m o n th ly r e p o r t s a r e t e ll i n g y o u i s w h a t t h e r e is , is tr u e , is n ’ t it ? B e c a u s e o th e r w i s e i f y o u d id n o t d o t h a t b e fo r e E s ti n a le f t a n d y o u j u s t a s s u m e d t h a t th e r e p o r t s , t h e m o n t h l y r e p o r ts th a t t h e y g a v e y o u c o r r e c tly r e fl e c t e d t h e s i t u a t i o n o n t h e g r o u n d th e i f y o u t a k e th e h a n d o v e r lis t a n d c h e c k t h a t th e n y o u a r e e n t ir e ly i n Es t in a ’s h a n d s . I f Page 188 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 t h e y h a d d e c i d e d n o t to t e ll y o u a b o u t c e r t a i n t h i n g s t h e n y o u w o u ld n o t k n o w, y o u w o u l d s a y n o t h is lis t is fi n e , b u t a c tu a lly it is n o t fi n e . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a , I h e a r C h a ir, t h a t w o u l d b e p o s s i b le o n m in o r i t e m s , b u t o n th e m a jo r it e m s w e w o u ld h a v e b e e n a b l e t o p ic k u p . CHAIRPERSON: J a , I a m s u r e o n c e r t a i n b i g m a c h in e s t h o s e y o u c o u l d , b u t o f c o u r s e y o u k n o w s o m e t h i n g s t h a t m i g h t b e m in o r t h e y m i g h t e n d u p b e i n g q u i t e s o m e t h in g b ig fi n a n c i a l ly i f i t is a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s th a t a r e p u t t o g e t h e r. 10 I mean I see here references even to w h e e l b a r r o w s , a n y w a y t h a t i s fi n e . T h e a n s w e r y o u h a v e g iv e n i s t h a t y o u r e li e d o n c o m p a r in g t h e lis t , t h e h a n d o v e r lis t w i t h th e m o n t h ly reports that you got? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: That is correct. Mr Thabethe can you please go back to r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e D f o r D o n a l d . Leave that one open, yes, just go to D , a n d p le a s e g o t o p a g e 1 4 0 7 . N o w th is is a m o n t h ly f in a n c ia l r e p o r t , is t h is t h e k i n d o f r e p o r t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o ? P a g e 1 4 0 7 C h a ir m a n , i t is j u s t o n e s a m p l e o f a m o n th ly fi n a n c i a l r e p o r t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. N o w w h e n y o u c o m p a r e t h is r e p o r t to t h e r e p o r t i n t h a t c o u r t r e c o r d s b u n d le t h a t I s a i d y o u s h o u l d n o t c l o s e , t h e y a r e c o m p le t e l y d i ff e r e n t , s o th e r e c o r d y o u h a v e o n t h i s d e t a i le d lis t o f a s s e ts b e in g h a n d e d o v e r o n A u g u s t 1 2 2 0 1 4 t h o s e a s s e ts a r e n o t r e f le c t e d o n t h is p a r t ic u l a r – I w i ll t a lk a b o u t th is p a r ti c u la r m o n th ly Page 189 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 r e p o r t , w h ic h i s o n e f o r th e 3 1 s t o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 3 . MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: J a , C h a ir o n t h e m o n t h l y r e p o r t t h e r e p o r t w i ll s a y w e h a v e s p e n t 1 2 0 0 0 0 t o b u y a tr a c t o r. In the asset r e g is t e r t h e y w i ll t e l l y o u it is a J o h n D e e r e w h a t e v e r s iz e t h a t r e p o r t , b e c a u s e t h e r e p o r t is n o t a n a s s e t r e g is t e r, i t w o u l d n o t g iv e y o u a ll t h o s e d e ta il s , i t w ill j u s t t e l l y o u th a t w e b o u g h t a t r a c t o r. Then you c a n d o v e r i fi c a t i o n s o n t h e tr a c t o r i n t e r m s o f th e m o n t h r e p o r t i f y o u w a n t to d o s o , b u t th e a s s e t r e g i s te r m u s t th e n g iv e y o u th e d e t a i ls o f w h a t tr a c to r is it . 10 S o t h a t is t h e d i ff e r e n c e , b u t w h a t y o u w o u ld t h e n d o y o u w o u ld k n o w t h a t i n N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 2 a tr a c t o r w a s b o u g h t in s u c h a n d s u c h a ti m e i f t h e r e w a s a n o th e r t r a c t o r a tr a c to r w a s b o u g h t s o y o u w o u ld k n o w t h e n u m b e r o f t r a c t o r s t h a t w e r e e v e n t u a l ly b o u g h t th e n y o u c a n c o m p a r e th e m in y o u r a s s e t r e g is t e r t o c h e c k if i n d e e d a ll th e tr a c t o r s th a t w e r e b o u g h t a r e i n y o u r a s s e t r e g is t e r. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B u t o f c o u r s e th e r e is a ls o – I a m ju s t c o m p o u n d i n g t h e is s u e , th e r e i s a ls o t h e e v id e n c e o f M r B a s s o n w h o s a y s th a t t h e r e w e r e s o m a n y o f t h e t r a c t o r s t h a t b e l o n g e d t o th e f a r m t h a t w e r e p a r k e d i n h i s y a r d b e c a u s e h e fix e d tr a c to r s a n d v a r io u s 20 forms of equipment. Did you know about that? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g i s t h a t t h e y h a d a g r e e d w i th h i m t o p r o v i d e s e r v ic e s f o r t h e tr a c t o r s o n th e fa r m , a s a lo c a l b u s in e s s p e r s o n , t h e th e tr a c to r s w i ll th e n g o t h e r e f o r r e p a ir s a n d s e r v ic e s t h a t w o u ld h a p p e n , s o I w o u l d n o t d is a g r e e w i t h t h a t. ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: In a n y e v e n t th e l o n g a n d s h o r t o f it Mr Page 190 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 T h a b e th e i s t h e s e r e p o r ts a r e n o t c o m p a r a b l e , w h a t y o u c a ll th e d e t a i l e d l is t o f a s s e ts a n d w h a t w e a r e lo o k in g a t a s a m o n th ly f in a n c ia l r e p o r t a r e n o t d o c u m e n t s th a t s p e a k to e a c h o t h e r. I tr u s t w e c a n agree on that at least? CHAIRPERSON: I n o th e r w o r d s M r Th a b e th e t h e p r o p o s i t io n is y o u r r e l i a n c e o n m o n t h l y r e p o r ts t o e s t a b l i s h th e a c c u r a te n e s s , y o u r c o r r e c t n e s s o f t h e h a n d o v e r li s t w a s m is p l a c e d , b e c a u s e t h e m o n t h l y r e p o r t s d id n o t c o n t a i n a l l th e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e y w o u l d h a v e h a d t o c o n ta in i f t h a t c o m p a r is o n w a s g o i n g t o g iv e y o u th e c o r r e c t a n s w e r. 10 W h a t d o y o u s a y t o t h a t? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: a m o n t h ly report it d id C h a ir I w o u ld s t il l s a y f o r t h e s a k e o f contain th e i n f o r m a ti o n we r e q u ir e d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o , n o t f o r t h e s a k e o f t h e m o n t h ly r e p o r t, fo r t h e s a k e o f d e t e r m i n i n g w h e t h e r t h e h a n d o v e r lis t o f a s s e ts t h a t w a s g iv e n t o y o u w a s a c o r r e c t r e fl e c t i o n o f t h e a s s e ts t h a t w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e h a n d e d o v e r t o y o u , I t h i n k i t w a s t h e q u e s t i o n if I u n d e r s t o o d i t c o r r e c t ly w a s i n t h a t a r e a , d id I m is u n d e r s t a n d s o m e t h i n g ? ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 20 CHAIRPERSON: N o , n o a b s o lu t e ly C h a ir m a n . Ye s , s o i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e q u e s t i o n w a s y o u w e r e g iv e n , y o u s a id y o u w e r e g iv e n t h is h a n d o v e r l is t b y E s ti n a a n d y o u t o o k t h i s h a n d o v e r li s t a n d w e n t to F D C a n d t o g e t h e r y o u w a n t e d to c h e c k a n d t h e n I t h i n k t h a t is w h e r e y o u s a i d y o u l o o k e d a t th e m o n t h ly r e p o r t s to s e e w h e t h e r i n e ffe c t y o u h a d b e e n g i v e n t h e c o r r e c t in f o r m a ti o n o n t h e h a n d o v e r l is t a n d t h e p r o p o s i ti o n i s i f y o u l o o k a t t h e Page 191 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 k in d o f i n f o r m a t io n y o u w e r e b e in g g iv e n in m o n t h ly r e p o r ts y o u r r e l i a n c e o n th e m o n t h ly r e p o r ts f o r th a t p u r p o s e w a s m i s p la c e d . W h a t do you say? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: C h a ir I a g r e e t h a t t h e m o n th ly r e p o r t w i ll n o t g iv e y o u t h e d e t a i ls , t h e m o n t h ly r e p o r t w i ll s a y f a r m i n g e q u ip m e n t w e s p e n t 4 2 0 0 0 to b u y fa r m i n g e q u i p m e n t , a n d t h e n t h e a s s e t r e g is t e r w i ll t h e n s a y w h a t a r e t h e s e fa r m in g e q u ip m e n ts t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r in g t o . A l l t h a t w e h a v e b e e n l o o k in g a t t o s a y t h e r e h a s t o b e f a r m in g e q u i p m e n t i n t e r m s o f t h e m o n t h l y r e p o r t . 10 Th e n y o u c o m e to t h e a s s e t r e g is t e r a n d s a y y o u h a d s p e n t s o m u c h m o n e y i n b u y i n g f a r m in g e q u i p m e n t s w h e r e o n t h e li s t a r e t h o s e f a r m i n g e q u i p m e n ts . T h a t is th e c o m p a r i s o n . I w o u l d s a y e v e n th o u g h i t m a y n o t g iv e y o u t h e fu ll d e t a ils , b u t it w i ll b e a b l e to r e s p o n d t o y o u r q u e s t i o n . CHAIRPERSON: S o i s y o u r a n s w e r t h e r e fo r e t h a t y o u h a d t o lo o k a t t h e m o n th ly r e p o r ts t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e a s s e t r e g is te r t o s e e w h e t h e r t h e h a n d o v e r li s t w a s c o r r e c t ? MR MBANA PETER THABETHE: T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. 20 ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: CHAIRPERSON: C a n I m o v e o n t o a d i ff e r e n t a s p e c t . L e t u s ta k e a s h o r t b r e a k b e f o r e w e m o v e o n , it is a b o u t f o u r m in u t e s p a s t , w e w ill r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r p a s t f o u r. We adjourn. REGISTRAR: A ll r is e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS Page 192 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s G c a b a s h e . A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . C h a ir m a n t h e l e g a l t e a m o n b o t h s id e s h a s h a d a b r ie f d i s c u s s io n t h e n w e a p p r o a c h e d y o u t o a s k y o u i f w e c o u l d a d j o u r n a t t h i s t i m e . O u r c o ll e a g u e s h a v e a l o n g w a y t o g o o n l y b e c a u s e th e y h a v e b e e n – t h e y tr a v e ll e d in t o J o h a n n e s b u r g t h is m o r n i n g a n d t h e y h a v e t o g o h o m e . T h e r e is q u i te a b i t o f m a t e r ia l t h a t w e s ti ll h a v e t o c o v e r a n d I th i n k i t w o u l d n o t b e f a ir t o r u s h M r T h a b e t h e i n h is a n s w e r o r t o r u s h e v i d e n c e l e a d e r i n h e r 10 q u e s t io n s . S o i n th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s C h a ir m a n w e a s k i f y o u w o u l d p l e a s e c o n s i d e r a d jo u r n i n g a t t h i s ti m e . I t i s h a l f p a s t fo u r a n d w h a t w e h o p e y o u w i ll b e a b l e t o d o is g iv e a d a t e s o m e t i m e in S e p t e m b e r. W e b e l i e v e w e s h o u ld n o t n e e d m o r e th a n a n a f t e r n o o n t o c o m p le t e t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r T h a b e th e . I s a w my c o ll e a g u e s a p p r o a c h Mr T h a b e t h e s o I h a v e a s s u m e d t h a t h e t o o w i ll b e a v a i l a b l e o r w i ll m a k e h i m s e l f a v a i la b le f o r t h e S e p t e m b e r d a t e . S o th a t is w h a t w e a r e r e q u e s ti n g DCJ. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o w e a r e g o in g t o a d j o u r n a t th is s ta g e w i t h o u t M r T h a b e th e h a v i n g f i n is h e d h is e v i d e n c e s i m p ly b e c a u s e i t i s c l e a r 20 t h a t w e a r e n o t g o i n g to fi n is h w it h h is e v id e n c e to d a y a n d w e c a n n o t c o n ti n u e to m o r r o w b e c a u s e n o t e v e r y b o d y is a v a il a b l e t o m o r r o w. A n o th e r d a te w il l b e a r r a n g e d . T h e r e h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s io n s o n – b y t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e c o m m is s i o n a n d M r Th a b e t h e ’s l e g a l t e a m a n d myself. A d a te w ill b e a r r a n g e d f o r Mr T h a b e th e to c o m e b a c k a n d t h e r e a r e s o m e d o c u m e n ts th a t w i ll b e e x c h a n g e d i n th e m e a n t i m e i n Page 193 of 194 20 AUGUST 2019 – DAY 148 o r d e r t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w h e n h e c o m e s b a c k h e i s a b le t o d e a l w it h c e r t a i n m a t te r s – c e r ta i n m a tt e r s a s w e ll i n c l u d in g s t a t e m e n t s t h a t m i g h t c o m e th r o u g h fr o m s o m e i n d iv id u a ls fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e a s w e l l a s h e w i ll g e t a c h a n c e t o a ls o d e a l w it h o n e o f t h e r e p o r ts to w h i c h r e f e r e n c e w a s m a d e d u r i n g h is e v i d e n c e . S o w e a r e g o in g t o s to p a t t h i s s t a g e M r T h a b e th e a n d y o u w i ll c o m e b a c k . I s t h a t f in e ? M R M B A N A P E T E R T H A B E T H E : T h a t is fi n e S ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P r o b a b ly w e w il l n o t n e e d th e w h o l e d a y fo r y o u 10 when you come back. I t s h o u l d b e m a y b e t h r e e h o u r s o r th e r e a b o u t a n d th e n w e s h o u l d b e a b l e t o f i n is h . T h a t h o p e fu ll y w ill b e s o m e t i m e in S e p t e m b e r b u t t h e d a t e w i ll b e g iv e n t o y o u in d u e c o u r s e . a r e g o i n g to a d j o u r n . So we W i th r e g a r d t o to m o r r o w t h e r e w i ll n o t b e a n y s i tt i n g o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n t o m o r r o w b u t w i t h r e g a r d t o T h u r s d a y a n d Fr id a y t h e r e w a s a w i tn e s s w h o w a s g o i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e b u t h e r s t a te – a s ta t e m e n t w il l b e is s u e d to m o r r o w a s t o w h e t h e r t h a t w i t n e s s c a n b e h e a r d o n T h u r s d a y a n d F r i d a y. T h e r e is a p o s s ib il i ty th a t w e m i g h t n o t s i t o n T h u r s d a y a n d Fr id a y e it h e r. If we do not sit on T h u r s d a y a n d Fr i d a y w e w il l s t il l n e v e r t h e l e s s s it o n M o n d a y a n d t h e 20 m e d i a s t a t e m e n t t h a t w ill is s u e d w i ll i n d i c a t e w h ic h w o r k s tr e a m t h e w i t n e s s e s w h o w i ll b e g iv i n g e v i d e n c e n e x t w e e k w i ll c o m e f r o m – fr o m Monday onwards. S o w e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n t h e n n o w. proceedings are adjourned. R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS SINE DIE Page 194 of 194 The