C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

19 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 6 7

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 19 SEPT EMB ER 2019
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

m o r n in g

Ms

S e p t e m b e r,

good

m o r n in g

e v e r y b o d y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s w e a r e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s c o n t in u e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir i f I m a y th e r e i s o n e p o i n t th a t

I w o u ld l ik e t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d a n d t h a t i s t h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s h a v e
10

h a d s u c c e s s i n l o c a ti n g M a j o r G e n e r a l C h r i s N c o b o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h a t h is R u le 3 . 3 N o tic e w a s i n

f a c t d e l iv e r e d t o h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o l o n e l R o e lo f s e b e f o r e w e r e s u m e

w h e r e w e s to p p e d y e s t e r d a y th e r e w a s o n e q u e r y t h a t th e – th e J u d g e
h a s r e q u e s te d y o u to o b t a in c l a r i ty o n a n d t h a t is i n r e l a ti o n to t h e
n a m e w h ic h is r e f l e c t e d o n p a g e 4 2 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t i n b u n d l e K K 2 . 1 .
A n d i n p a r ti c u la r p a r a g r a p h 1 4 0 . 2 . Th e n a m e w h ic h – i s r e f le c te d t h e r e
20

is R a n j e n i M u n u s a m i w h ic h f o r t h e r e c o r d is s p e lt R - a - n - j - e - n - i a n d t h e
s u r n a m e is M - u - n - u - s - a - m - i . W e i n f o r m e d t h e C h a ir y e s t e r d a y t h a t w e
r e c e i v e d a r e s p o n s e t o a 3 . 3 N o t ic e t h a t w a s p u r p o r t e d ly s e n t to th is
in d i v i d u a l h o w e v e r th e r e s p o n s e t h a t w e r e c e iv e d w a s fr o m a n a t t o r n e y
m o r e t h a n o n e a t t o r n e y a c tu a lly r e p r e s e n t in g a p e r s o n w h o s e n a m e is
spelt

N - a - v - a - r - a - n - j- e - n - i

surname

M - u - n - u - s - a - m- y

Page 2 of 233

w h ic h

is

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
N a v a r a n je n i M u n u s a my.

H a v e y o u b e e n a b l e t o e s t a b li s h a n y c l a r it y

o v e r n i g h t o n t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n r e l a tiv e t o p a r a g r a p h
1 4 0 . 2 i n r e la t io n t o t h e R a n j e n i M u n u s a m i w h ic h is r e c o r d e d in t h a t
p a r a g r a p h a n d t h e o th e r n a m e w h i c h w e h a v e p l a c e d o n r e c o r d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I d i d .

I a c t u a l ly m a d e a

m is t a k e in t e r m s o f t h e s u r n a m e t h a t I h a v e r e c o r d e d i n m y – i n m y
a ffi d a v i t . I t s h o u l d r e a d Y. I a g a i n w e n t b a c k t o t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n t h a t
I h a v e . T h e v e h i c l e in q u e s t io n is r e g is t e r e d i n N M u n u s a m y w i th a y a t
t h e e n d o f t h e s u r n a m e r e g is t e r e d t o a n a d d r e s s w h ic h w a s u s e d b y t h e
10

s a m e p e r s o n a t t h e ti m e w h i c h is a ls o i n d ic a t e d o n t h e – o n th e b a n k
s t a te m e n t fr o m W e s b a n k .

S o t h e tw o – t h e p e r s o n t h a t I a m t a lk in g

a b o u t is i n f a c t N a v a r e n j e n i M u n u s a m y. I u s e d t h e n a m e R a n j e n i t h a t
is b e c a u s e th a t i s h o w s h e is k n o w n . A n d s e c o n d ly C h a ir w h a t I a ls o
t h e n – I a ls o r e m e m b e r e d th a t i n 2 0 1 4 I d id in f a c t c o n t a c t M s R a n j e n i
M u n u s a my a n d – a n d I i n f o r m e d h e r o f w h a t I h a v e f o u n d a n d a s k e d h e r
f o r a v e r s io n a n d e x p la n a ti o n . I s p o k e a b o u t th r e e ti m e s I th in k t o h e r.
S h e th e n s a i d t h a t s h e w i ll s p e a k t o h e r le g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e .

I have

n e v e r r e c e iv e d a n y c o m m u n i c a t io n fr o m h e r a f t e r t h a t i n r e s p e c t o f a n y
e x p l a n a t io n a s to w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A t t h is p o i n t i n t i m e a l l I c a n s t a t e

is t h a t t h e a c c o u n t h e l d b y N is s a n – N is s a n A t la n ti s o r A t la n ti s M o t o r s
p a i d a n a m o u n t i n to a n a c c o u n t h e ld b y N a v a r e n j e n i M u n u s a m y a t
W e s b a n k r e l a ti n g t o th e v e h ic le t h a t s h e o w n e d o r t h a t p e r s o n o w n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a r e y o u s a y i n g th a t i n t e r m s o f w h a t is w r i tt e n in

Page 3 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
y o u r a ff i d a v i t th e r e w a s ju s t s o m e s p e ll in g e r r o r s in t e r m s o f y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y it is th e s a m e p e r s o n .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t is t h e s a m e p e r s o n a c c o r d in g t o

m e y e s . Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. In a n y e v e n t w i th

t h e a s s i s ta n c e o f t h i s w i t n e s s w e w i ll o b t a i n t h e – a n y i d e n t i fic a ti o n
d e t a i ls a n d c o m m u n i c a t e i t o r r a th e r c o m p a r e i t t o a r e q u e s t f o r i d e n t it y
10

d e t a i ls fr o m t h e a t to r n e y s w e h a v e r e c e iv e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t h e – t h e n a m e a s w r i t t e n i n y o u r a ff id a v i t a n d

t h e n a m e a s w r i t te n in t h e le t t e r o f a t t o r n e y s th a t M s S e p te m b e r r e a d in
t e r m s o f w h a t y o u fo u n d w h e n y o u w e r e in v e s ti g a t in g w h ic h n a m e
a p p e a r e d ? Wa s i t t h e o n e a s w r it t e n h e r e e x c e p t fo r th e s p e l li n g e r r o r
t h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d o r t h e o n e a s i n d ic a t e d i n t h e l e tt e r t h a t M s
S e p te m b e r h a s r e a d o u t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chairperson in respect of – in the

d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e r e g i s tr a t io n d o c u – t h e
[i n d is t in c t] d o c u m e n t s r e l a t i n g t o t h e v e h ic le a s w e ll a s th e b a n k
20

a c c o u n t d e t a ils . It is N M u n u s a m y.
CHAIRPERSON: N?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N a v a r a n j e n i M u n u s a m y.

I knew

h e r a s R a n j e n i b e c a u s e t h a t i s t h e n a m e t h a t I a m – t h a t I a m fa m i li a r

Page 4 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
w i t h s o I p r e s u m e w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d is I u s e d t h e n a m e R a n j e n i a n d
d i d n o t p u t i n th e fir s t p a r t o f N a v a r e n je n i M u n u s a my.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t y o u c a m e a c r o s s i n y o u r

in v e s t i g a t io n r e f l e c te d in i ti a l N f o r N e l ly ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Munusamy?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n a c e r t a in a d d r e s s w a s g i v e n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u m a d e fu r t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s w h ic h c o n f ir m i t is t h e s a m e

address.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n y o u c o n fi r m e d t h a t it w a s th e s a m e p e r s o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . I ju s t w a n t e d t h a t c l a r i f ic a t i o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir – C h a ir i f I m a y ju s t to a d d t o

t h a t . T h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e t h a t w a s i n f a c t s e n t o u t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o a
M s R a v a r a n j e n i [R a n j e n i ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t to s p e l l t h e …
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t h i n k t h a t is b e s t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja just so that we…
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

I t is a d d r e s s e d t o a M s a n d th e fir s t

n a m e i s N - a - v - a - r - a - n - j- e - n - I i n b r a c k e t s is w r i t te n R a n j e n i w h ic h is
s p e l t R - a - n - j - e - n - I a n d t h e s u r n a m e i f a c t u a ll y s p e l t M - u - n - u - s - a - m- i
c o n tr a r y to t h e s p e ll i n g o f th is n a m e i n t h e a ff id a v i t i ts e l f .

Page 5 of 233

When we

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
r e c e i v e d a r e s p o n s e t o th e R u l e 3 . 3 w e h a v e s in c e r e c e iv e d t w o
r e s p o n s e s t h r o u g h t w o d i ff e r e n t a t t o r n e y s .

T h e fir s t a tt o r n e y h a s

r e s p o n d e d t o i n fo r m th a t i t i s – it is W i ll e m D e K l e r k a tt o r n e y w h o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll e m ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W i ll e m D e K l e r k A t t o r n e y s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W i ll e m D e Kl e r k A t t o r n e y s ja .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h o w r o te a l e t te r to u s o n th e 1 3 t h

– d a te d t h e 1 3 t h S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 9 i n fo r m in g t h a t h e r e p r e s e n t e d M s
R a v a r a n je n i M u n u s a m i i n a d d i t io n to a n o t h e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

F o ll o w i n g a r e s p o n s e t h a t w e s e n t to

t h e m w e d id n o t r e c e iv e a n y f u r th e r c o m m u n ic a ti o n s fr o m t h i s a t t o r n e y.
O n t h e 1 7 t h S e p te m b e r w h i c h w a s t h e fi r s t d a te o f e v i d e n c e o f t h is
w i t n e s s w e t h e n r e c e iv e d a c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m W e b b e r W e n tz e l
Attorneys.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e b b e r W e n tz e l ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H m .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

W h o in f o r m e d t h a t t h e y a r e

r e p r e s e n ti n g M s R a v a r a n j e n i R a n j e n i M u n u s a m y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. D i d t h e y i n d ic a te i f th e y w e r e g o in g t o
fi le a n a ff id a v i t o r a n y t h i n g ? A n y o f t h e t w o f ir m s o f a tt o r n e y s o r b o t h ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir t h e f ir s t a t t o r n e y s W il le m D e

K l e r k i n f o r m e d t h a t t h e y a c tu a lly w a n te d a f u l l c o p y o f t h e e n t ir e
a ffi d a v i t .

Page 6 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i n r e s p o n s e – a n d in a d d i t io n t o

t h a t t h e y a ls o i n f o r m e d t h a t t h e y r e p r e s e n t e d t h e e d i to r o f t h e S u n d a y
Ti m e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e r e s p o n s e to t h a t n o t o n ly c a ll e d

f o r a n u n d e r t a k i n g in s o f a r a s R u l e R e g u l a t io n 11 .3 w a s n o t b r e a c h e d i n
a n y w a y in t h a t t h e y n o w a p p e a r t o r e p r e s e n t t w o c li e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t …
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O n ly o n e o f w h o m is …

CHAIRPERSON: But the – aha.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Referred…

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e a ff id a v i t h a d n o t m e n ti o n e d th e e d i to r h a d i t?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

T h a t w a s t h e f ir s t e le m e n t o f

response.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

F ir s t l e g o f t h e r e s p o n s e . A n d th e

s e c o n d r e s p o n s e w a s t o i n fo r m t h a t a l l t h e r e le v a n t p a r a g r a p h s w h ic h
r e l a t e d t o th is p a r t ic u l a r tr a n s a c ti o n h a d i n fa c t b e e n p r o v i d e d a n d t h a t
in c l u d e d a t l e a s t fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 1 3 3 u p a n d u n til 1 4 0 .2 . A l s o g iv i n g
c la r i ty t o w h a t t h e a c r o n y m o f N W M m e a n s i n 1 4 0 .1 .

We never

r e c e i v e d a s I s a id a r e s p o n s e t o o u r l e t te r fr o m W il le m D e Kl e r k b u t t h e
r e s p o n s e t h a t w e d i d r e c e iv e fr o m W e b b e r W e n tz e l i s th a t th e c li e n t

Page 7 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
r e q u e s t e d a n e x t e n s i o n t o s u b m it h e r a p p l ic a t i o n s i n r e s p o n s e t o th e
R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e a n d t h a t i f I m a y r e a d a t p a r a g r a p h 3 :
“We

request

s p e n d in g

our

c li e n t ’s

response

to

e v i d e n c e p e r t a i n in g t o h e r. A n y w i tn e s s t e s ti m o n y n o t
d e a l w it h e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o o u r c li e n t. I t w o u l d b e
p r e j u d ic ia l t o o u r c l ie n t i f s u c h e v i d e n c e is m a d e
p u b lic

w i th o u t

our

c l ie n t

having

p r o v id e d

the

c o m m i s s io n w i th h e r e v e n ts – h e r v e r s i o n o f e v e n ts
and all their rights are reserved. We did not however
10

r e c e i v e a n y s u b s ta n ti v e a p p li c a t io n o f a n y s o r t . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d i f w e c o u ld t h e n ju s t g iv e c l a r it y

t o th is p a r tic u la r p a r t o f y o u r e v id e n c e w h i c h y o u s t a r t e d y e s te r d a y b u t
appeared not to have completed. On page 42 at paragraph 140.2 you
in f o r m t h a t i t w a s o n th e 9 t h M a y 2 0 0 8 th a t th e a m o u n t o f R 1 4 3 6 2 1 . 7 8
w a s p a i d to a W e s b a n k v e h ic l e f in a n c e a c c o u n t t o s e t t le a v e h ic l e
r e g is t e r e d i n th e n a m e o f R a n je n i M u n u s a m y. H o w e v e r w h a t y o u a ls o
in f o r m is t h a t th is a m o u n t r e fl e c t e d a s r e c e iv e d o n th e s a m e d a t e i n
t h a t p a r t ic u l a r a c c o u n t b u t t h e a m o u n t w a s d e b it e d a g a i n s t t h e A t l a n t is
20

M o t o r s B a r u t a c c o u n t o n t h e 3 0 t h J u ly 2 0 0 8 .
la p s e o f t i m e i n n e a r l y t h r e e m o n th s .

Th a t is n e a r – t h a t is a

W h a t d i d y o u r i n v e s t ig a t io n s

r e v e a l i n s o f a r a s t h is d i ffe r e n c e i n ti m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r i n r e s p e c t o f th a t I s p o k e t o

t h e d e a le r p r i n c i p le a t N is s a n – A t la n ti s M o t o r s . T h e e x p la n a ti o n w a s
t h e p a y m e n t w a s m a d e o n b e h a l f o f C o l o n e l B a r n a r d o n h is i n s t r u c t i o n

Page 8 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
a n d t h e p a y m e n t w a s m a d e f r o m t h e fu n d s o f A t l a n t is M o to r s .

Now

t h e r e h a d t o b e a – t h e r e w a s n o fu n d s c o m i n g fr o m s o m e w h e r e e l s e to
r e p a y th e R 1 4 3 0 0 0 . 0 0 s o M r Ve n t e r w a s g iv e n a n i n s tr u c ti o n t o – t o –
w h a t is th e w o r d I a m l o o k in g f o r ? To p l a c e t h a t m o n e y o v e r fr o m – t o
d o a j o u r n a l e n tr y f r o m t h e B a r u t a c c o u n t t o t h e N is s a n A t la n ti s –
A t la n ti s M o t o r s a c c o u n t t o c a n c e l t h e p a y m e n t t h a t w a s m a d e o n t h e 9 t h
M a y.

I n o t h e r w o r d s it w a s j u s t – i t w a s a b o o k e n tr y c a n c e ll in g th e

p a y m e n t t o b a l a n c e t h e b o o k s o f A t l a n t is M o t o r s . S o t h e – t h e m o n e y
c a m e fr o m t h e B a r u t a c c o u n t w h o s e – a n d t h a t s e t t le d t h e a m o u n t
10

w h ic h c a m e fr o m th e N is s a n A t la n ti s M o t o r s – A t l a n t is M o t o r s a c c o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s ju s t g e t th a t c l e a r. Yo u – w h e n y o u w e r e
c o n d u c t in g y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n i t tr a n s p ir e d th a t a c e r t a i n a m o u n t ju s t
u n d e r R 1 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d b e e n p a i d t o a b a n k i n s e t t le m e n t o f a n a c c o u n t
r e l a ti n g t o t h e p a r t ic u l a r in d i v i d u a l th a t y o u h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

The

a c c o u n t r e l a t e d t o a v e h ic l e t h a t w a s r e g is t e r e d in t h is in d i v i d u a l ’s
name.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it w a s W e s – w a s i t W e s b a n k ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

N o w a t t h a t t i m e w e r e y o u a b l e t o e s ta b l is h

w h o s e m o n e y t h a t w a s t h a t w a s u s e d . D i d y o u s e e a t th a t t i m e t h a t it
w a s A tl a n tis M o t o r s m o n e y o r c o u ld y o u t e l l a lr e a d y t h a t i t w a s m o n e y
c o m i n g fr o m s o m e w h e r e a n d s i m p l y g o i n g t h r o u g h A t la n ti s M o t o r s o r

Page 9 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d i d y o u d i s c o v e r th a t l a te r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h is tr a n s a c t i o n t o o k p l a c e

lo n g b e f o r e I – I g o t in v o lv e d i n t o t h e – w i t h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

So at

t h e ti m e w h e n I i n te r v i e w e d M r Ve n te r h e – h e s h o w e d m e th e – th e
tr a n s a c ti o n . H e e x p l a i n e d to m e w h a t h a p p e n e d . H e th e n i n d ic a te d t o
m e t h a t t h e a m o u n t c a m e fr o m A t l a n t is M o to r s o n t h e 9 t h M a y a n d to
c o v e r th e c o s t o f t h a t a m o u n t a n a m o u n t – t h e s a m e a m o u n t w a s t h e n –
t h e r e w a s a j o u r n a l e n tr y t o c o v e r t h e c o s t fr o m t h e A t la n ti s M o t o r s
a c c o u n t s o th a t t h e b a l a n c e s h e e t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y c o u ld b a l a n c e
10

w i t h r e s p e c t t o t h a t tr a n s a c ti o n th a t to o k p l a c e .

So the money came

fr o m t h e B a r u t a c c o u n t w i th in t h e A t l a n t is M o t o r s a n d i t w a s i f f o r a l a c k
o f b e tt e r w o r d i t w a s th e n tr a n s f e r r e d t o t h e A t la n ti s M o to r s a c c o u n t t o
b a l a n c e t h e t w o tr a n s a c ti o n s o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o – s o t h e e ffe c t o f t h e e n t ir e tr a n s a c ti o n w a s
t h a t – w a s t h e e ffe c t o f t h e e n t ir e tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t t h e p a y m e n t w a s
m a d e b y A t l a n t is M o t o r s o n b e h a l f o f o r o n t h e in s t r u c t i o n s o f
e ffe c tiv e l y C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Regardless of the dates the

m o n e y th a t w a s u ti li s e d fo r t h i s c a m e f r o m t h e B a r u t a c c o u n t u l ti m a t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h w a s t h e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a c c o u n t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Which was an account within the

b o o k s o f A tl a n tis M o t o r s y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .

Page 10 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

Colonel

Roelofse

did

your

in v e s t i g a t io n e s t a b l is h a n y r e a s o n s fo r w h y M s M u n u s a m y r e c e iv e d t h e
m o n i e s in s e t tl e m e n t o f t h e v e h i c l e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r n o . As I s t a te d e a r li e r I d i d

a s k h e r. I p h o n e d h e r o n m o r e t h a n o n e o c c a s i o n I th in k i t i s a t l e a s t
t h r e e o c c a s io n s r e q u e s ti n g a n e x p la n a ti o n . S h e s a id s h e w il l r e v e r t t o
h e r le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e . W h e t h e r s h e d i d o r n o t I d o n o t k n o w I h a v e
n o t – I h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d a n y c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o r e x p l a n a ti o n fr o m h e r
a ft e r – a f t e r th a t a n d a f t e r my – a n d a f te r m e f o l l o w i n g u p o n my
10

r e q u e s t . S o I d o n o t k n o w – a p a r t fr o m t h e f a c t t h a t I c a n s t a te t h a t th e
m o n e y c a m e fr o m t h e B a r u t a c c o u n t i n t o h e r a c c o u n t I d o n o t k n o w – I
d o n o t h a v e a n y in f o r m a t io n r e l a ti n g t o th e c o n t e x t o f t h a t p a y m e n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d w h o h o ld s t h e d o c u m e n ts w h i c h

u n d e r p i n th is tr a n s a c t i o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t – t h e s e t o f d o c u m e n ts a r e h e ld

b y A tl a n tis M o t o r s a s w e ll a s W e s b a n k .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u . I f w e c a n th e n r e s u m e

w h e r e w e le f t o ff y e s te r d a y a n d t h a t is o n p a g e 4 7 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
C h a ir I a m i n fo r m e d t h a t t h e r e is s o m e t e c h n ic a l p r o b l e m a n d t h e y n e e d
20

t e n m i n u t e s t o r e s o lv e .
CHAIRPERSON: Let us see whether they are able to sort it out without
a n a d jo u r n m e n t . D o w e n e e d a n a d jo u r n m e n t ? Ye s o k a y. W e w i ll ta k e
an adjournment and resume when they are ready for us. We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS

Page 11 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s p r o c e e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

If you can then

r e s u m e o n - w i th t h e e v i d e n c e w h e r e y o u s t o p p e d o ff y e s t e r d a y a n d t h is
w a s t h e s ta r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u g i v e in r e l a ti o n t o th e
in t e r fe r e n c e a n d d i ff ic u l ti e s a n d c h a l l e n g e s th a t y o u f a c e d t h r o u g h th e
in v e s t i g a t io n s y o u l e d a n d w e r e i n v o lv e d i n . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t y o u s t a r te d
10

w i t h b e g i n s a t p a g e 4 5 a n d i t d e a ls w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n to t h e
a b u s e o f th e - t h e S S A w h i c h r e s u l te d in fr a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n c h a r g e s
b e i n g l e v e ll e d a g a in s t G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d C o lo n e l B a r n a r d .

Is t h a t

r ig h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B e a r i n g in m i n d t h a t th e d e c i s i o n t h a t
w a s ta k e n t o w i th d r a w th e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t t h e s e i n d iv i d u a ls h a v e b e e n
t e s te d t h r o u g h o u r c o u r t s .

I t i s t o b e u n d e r s to o d t h e n th a t - w e a s k

r a th e r t h a t th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u g iv e in r e l a ti o n t o th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n
t a lk s s p e c if ic a l ly t o w h a t y o u d i d a n d th e s t e p s y o u t o o k in r e l a ti o n t o
20

t h is in v e s t i g a t io n .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s te r d a y y o u d i d m e n ti o n th a t i t w a s
o n 5 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 a n d n o t 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 a s r e fl e c t e d i n t h e
c o n s u l t a ti o n n o t e w h e n A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i d e c i d e d to w i t h d r a w th e s e
c h a r g e s i m m e d ia t e l y a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d C o l o n e l B a r n a r d ?

Page 12 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I m e n t io n - I
a m m e n t io n in g t h e 5 t h a s t h a t w a s h i s te s t i m o n y r e g a r d in g t h a t.

I do

n o t h a v e - I o n l y h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t w h i c h s ta t e s t h e 4 t h b u t I w a s p r iv y
t o h i s t e s ti m o n y w h i c h s a y s h e - h e c o r r e c t e d i t a n d s a i d h e o n l y d r a w h e d r e w u p t h e - th e n o t e o n th e 5 t h .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th r o u g h y o u C h a i r t h e - t h e

c o u r ts h a v e c e r ta i n ly t e s t e d th e f a c t u a l e v id e n c e i n r e la t io n t o th e
d i ff e r e n c e i n d a t e s a n d t h e y w e r e m o r e i n c li n e d to a c c e p t t h a t i t w a s i n
fact the 5th as opposed to the 4th?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t y o u c a n d o w i t h r e g a r d t o m a t te r s w h e r e
t h e r e i s a - a j u d g m e n t t h a t h a s n o t b e e n c h a ll e n g e d is y o u c a n j u s t t e l l
m e t h e i m p o r ta n t f a c t u a l fi n d i n g s . I f t h e r e a r e a n y le g a l f i n d in g s th a t
are relevant.

Yo u c a n ju s t m e n t io n t h e m t h a t t h i s i s w h a t w a s f o u n d

a n d th e n th e w i tn e s s c a n g i v e e v id e n c e o n ly r e a lly t o p u t c o n t e x t i f i t is
n e c e s s a r y o r t o f il l i n g a p s t h a t m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n d e a lt w it h in t h e
ju d g m e n t b e c a u s e t h e y m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n r e l e v a n t .
S o t h a t w e d o n o t n e e d t o g o th r o u g h t h e w h o le t h i n g b u t f o r
p u r p o s e s o f m a k i n g s u r e th a t t h o s e w h o a r e lis t e n i n g u n d e r s ta n d w h a t
is g o in g o n y o u c a n i n a d v a n c e j u s t id e n ti fy t h e f i n d i n g s o f t h e c o u r t
20

t h a t w i ll b e - t h a t h e w il l m e n t io n to s a y th e s e a r e t h e f in d in g s t h a t
were made.
T h a t t h e r e - t h e r e is n o p e n d i n g a p p e a l a n d t h e n t h e w i tn e s s
c a n f il l i n t e r m s o f c o n t e x t a n d is s u e s t h a t w e r e n o t d e a l t w i th .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o p r o b l e m C h a ir.

In - I have

p r e p a r e d b u t i t is r e a ll y j u s t a n o t e f r o m m e w h ic h h i g h l ig h ts c e r t a i n

Page 13 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
p a r a g r a p h - k e y p a r a g r a p h r e fe r e n c e s o n t h e f in d i n g s in b o th t h e H ig h
C o u r t a n d t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e - t h e s e
ju d g m e n t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h a t is - t h a t is fi n e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W it h y o u r l e a v e c a n I h a n d i t u p ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e , ja .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t h a s n o t b e e n p a g in a t e d o r a n y o f

t h e s o r t b u t i t is j u s t a …
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine, ja.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

R e f e r e n c e n o te .

If I can then ask

y o u t o t u r n t o - i n f a c t y e s te r d a y w h e n w e e n d e d y o u s p o k e a b o u t th e
m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u b e c o m e p r iv y to w h e n th a t w a s r e fe r r e d t o a s t h e
B r e y t e n b a c h / F e r r e i r a m e m o r a n d u m d a t e d 1 3 A p r il 2 0 1 2 . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t s t e p s d i d y o u t h e n ta k e a f t e r

receiving this memorandum?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

after

receiving

that

memorandum …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m j u s t s o r r y. L e t u s c o n n e c t p r o p e r l y w i th
w h e r e w e le f t o ff y e s t e r d a y.

Which memorandum?

W h a t p a g e is i t

a g a in ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e m e m o r a n d u m i s K D R 1 2 w h i c h is

Page 14 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
a t - s t a r ts a t p a g e 1 - 6 - 5 a n d it is r e f e r e n c e d i n p a r a g r a p h 1 - 5 - 8 o n
p a g e 4 7 o n t h e - in t h e a ffi d a v it i ts e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in t h e a ffi d a v i t w h a t p a g e /p a r a g r a p h ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y. S o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

P a r a g r a p h i n t h e - i n t h e - I a m s o r r y.

What

p a r a g r a p h in t h e a ffi d a v it ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is a t p a g e 4 7 …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: 1-5-8.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s , o k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d is i t c o r r e c t M r …
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k h e w a s s t ill a n s w e r i n g w h a t d i d y o u d o a ft e r

g e t t in g th is m e m o r a n d u m a t p a g e 1 - 6 - 5 .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir w h e n - w h e n I r e c e i v e d t h e

m e m o r a n d u m a n d it a ls o c o u p le d w i t h t h e - w i t h th e le t t e r r e c e i v e d fr o m
A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i

w h ic h

d a te d

30 March 2012.

I

-

I

requested

G e n e r a l D r a m a t fr o m m y o ff ic e to w r it e a g a i n to A d v o c a t e J i b a b e c a u s e
t h e r e s p o n s e th a t w e r e c e iv e d w a s n o t fr o m A d v o c a t e J ib a a s r e q u e s te d
20

a n d th e r e f o r e h e t h e n h e - h e d i d - h e d i d w r i t e th a t r e q u e s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d I a m s o r r y. T h e le t t e r fr o m o r m e m o r a n d u m
fr o m Mr M r w e b i a l s o d i d n o t s a y th a t h e w a s w r i ti n g a t t h e r e q u e s t o f o r
o n b e h a lf o f Ms J i b a ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e j u s t w r o te , j a .

Page 15 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Did not say any …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t w a s n o t a d d r e s s e d t o th e - t o t o A d v o c a t e J i b a e i th e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h a t p a r tic u la r - th a t p a r ti c u l a r

le t t e r o f r e s p o n s e o f A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a s t h e C h a ir h a s a ll u d e d
c e r t a i n l y d i d n o t i n d ic a te a n y f o r m o f r e s p o n s e fr o m A d v o c a t e J ib a . Is
10

t h a t r ig h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Then

what

happened

d u r in g

May 2012?
CHAIRPERSON: I do not know whether May 2012 takes him to where
h e w a s b e f o r e o n e o f u s i n te r r u p t e d h i m . Yo u h a d a s k e d h i m t o - I th i n k
h e w a s ta lk in g a b o u t a s k i n g G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o w r i t e t o M s J i b a a g a i n
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D o y o u w a n t to ju s t c o m p le t e th a t a n s w e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a i r th a t w a s o n 2 3 A p r il 2 0 1 2 .

T h a t is a f t e r r e c e iv i n g t h e - t h e r e s p o n s e f r o m - fr o m A d v o c a t e M r w e b i .
I r e q u e s t e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o w r i t e t o A d v o c a te J i b a s o th a t w e c a n
get a response from her because the - the request was to reconsider
t h e - t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t w a s ta k e n b y A d v o c a t e M r w e b i a s h e w a s n o t in
a p o s i ti o n t o r e v i e w h is o w n d e c is i o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And did Advocate Jiba respond?

Page 16 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir s h e d id n o t r e s p o n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Well

I

am

s o r r y.

Where

is

th e

le t t e r

th a t

G e n e r a l D r a m a t w r o t e t o M s J ib a ? L e t u s i d e n ti f y t h a t le t t e r fir s t.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t i t s a id in … .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is a n n e x u r e …
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e t h r u s t o f t h e l e t te r e v e n i f y o u d o n o t r e a d t h e

le t t e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

N o p r o b l e m C h a ir.

Can we go to

p a g e 1 - 8 - 9 ? I s t h i s t h e l e t te r t h a t y o u r e f e r t o ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h is le t t e r i s d a t e d 2 3 A p r i l 2 0 1 2
written

by

s i g n a tu r e

of

L ie u t e n a n t - G e n e r a l D r a m a t

addressed

to

Advocate Jiba?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d if w e l o o k a t - in th e s e c o n d

p a r a g r a p h c a n y o u p l e a s e r e a d th a t i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir it s t a t e s th e fo ll o w i n g :
“ T h e r e a f te r I r e c e iv e d a r e s p o n s e a g a i n f r o m
20

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i t h a t t h e m a t t e r is f in a lis e d a n d
t h a t h e a b id e b y - b y h is d e c is i o n .

I n t h e - in th e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s I w il l a p p r e c i a t e a d e c is io n o n t h e
m a t t e r b y y o u a s th e u l ti m a t e a u t h o r i ty in r e s p e c t o f
t h e c o n s id e r a ti o n o f th e - o f a p r o s e c u t io n . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u c a n c o n t i n u e .

Page 17 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Did

M s J ib a

respond

to

this

le t t e r

fr o m

General Dramat?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir.

S h e d i d - s h e d id n o t

r e s p o n d . H e r O ff ic e M a n a g e r r e s p o n d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e r O ff ic e M a n a g e r ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And where is that response?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

I f I c o u l d t a k e y o u t o p a g e - i t is

Annexure 17 at page 200.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h e e ff e c t o f t h e r e s p o n s e Mr R o e l o f s e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

if I may read.

I t is

a d d r e s s e d to G e n e r a l D r a m a t .
“ D e a r L ie u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l D r a m a t , th e a b o v e m a t t e r
r e fe r s to y o u r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e d a t e d 2 3 A p r i l 2 0 1 2 .
P l e a s e b e a d v i s e d th e m a t te r w a s a t t e n d e d b y
A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i in h is c a p a c i t y a s t h e H e a d o f
S p e c ia li s e d C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e U n i t a s th e s u b j e c t
m a t t e r fa ll s w i t h i n h is a r e a o f j u r is d ic t io n .
20

I tr u s t

t h a t th e a b o v e i s i n o r d e r. ”
CHAIRPERSON: And that was from J Lepinka?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r w h o is

a c c o r d i n g t o t h is l e t te r th e M a n a g e r E x e c u tiv e S u p p o r t t o t h e N a ti o n a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o o n c e a g a i n M s J i b a d i d n o t r e s p o n d h e r s e lf ?

Page 18 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h i s le t t e r d o e s n o t s a y th a t Ms L e p in k a is w r i ti n g
at the request of Ms Jiba or on behalf of Ms Jiba?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e j u s t r e s p o n d s t o a l e tt e r t h a t w a s n o t a d d r e s s t o
her?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

request

of

23 April 2012

D i d a n y o n e r e s p o n d t o t h e i n i t ia l

which

was

written

by

the

O ff i c e

of

G e n e r a l D r a m a t to A d v o c a t e J i b a o u ts id e o f Ms L e p i n k a ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir.

Nobody responded.

T h e - t h e o n ly r e s p o n s e s c a m e a f t e r th e a p p l ic a t i o n o f - a f te r t h e
a p p lic a ti o n b y F U L in t h e H ig h C o u r t i n G a u te n g N o r t h .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h a t r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t w a s a r e s p o n s e - C h a ir I

h a v e t o j u s t g o - g o t h e r e . I t w il l b e l a te r i n t h a t s a m e y e a r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D o y o u p e r h a p s r e fe r t o a m e e ti n g

t h a t w a s h a d b e tw e e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d A d v o c a t e J i b a ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o t o t h a t e n d c a n - a n d th is w a s
a ls o f o ll o w i n g a d d i t io n a l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t w a s s e n t i n t h e i n te r i m
c a l li n g o n A d v o c a te J i b a t o r e s p o n d . Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m n o t f o ll o w i n g t h a t n o w. L e t u s d o i t a c c o r d i n g t o

Page 19 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
sequence.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n - w h e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t r e c e iv e d o r r a t h e r d i d

G e n e r a l D r a m a t b e c o m e a w a r e o f t h e l e t te r fr o m J L e p in k a ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I r e c e i v e d a
c o p y o f t h a t le t t e r fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

D i d h e a d d r e s s a n y f u r th e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o

M s J i b a o r t o a n y o n e a t th e N PA ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

C h a i r h e d i d a ft e r t h e r e w a s a

c o u p l e o f m o n t h s t h a t w e n t - t h a t w e n t b y.

I n t h a t t i m e fr a m e o t h e r

t h i n g s h a p p e n e d . S o i t - i t fo ll o w s a b i t l a t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

W h o w a s t h is a d d r e s s e d t o t h is f u r t h e r

correspondence?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It

was

again

addressed

to

Advocate Jiba.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W h e r e d o w e f i n d t h a t i n th e b u n d l e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
paragraph 1-6-3 on page 48.

Ye s .

If I can take you to - to

Yo u r e f e r t o a l e t t e r t h a t w a s s e n t b y

G e n e r a l D r a m a t o n 7 J u n e 2 0 1 2 . Is t h a t t h e l e tt e r t h a t y o u r e f e r t o ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o t o c a n I th e n … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n , h a n g o n , h a n g o n . D i d y o u s a y w e s h o u ld
go to page 1-6-3?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A t p a r a g r a p h 1 - 6 - 3 o f h is a ffi d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON: And where is that annexure?

Page 20 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: At page 2-0-2.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is th e l e t te r f r o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t to M s J ib a

a g a in ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W h a t w a s t h e th r u s t o f t h a t l e tt e r f r o m

G e n e r a l D r a m a t to M s J ib a M r R o e l o fs e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i t r e i t e r a te t h e p r e v i o u s

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d a g a i n r e q u e s te d th a t t o r e v i e w t h e d e c is io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d it a l s o - i t a ls o - i t w e n t a

li t tl e b i t f u r t h e r i n t h e s e n s e t h a t h e e x p l a i n e d to h e r w h a t t h e m a n d a te
is o f th e D P C I t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e m a n d a t e o f th e I G I a s t o w h a t th e
outcome of that …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S i tu a ti o n w a s a n d h e - h e a g a i n

a s k e d h e r f o r h e r a s s is t a n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : To r e v ie w t h e d e c i s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. C o n t in u e .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f w e c a n th e n j u s t f in a l is e t h e

c o m m u n ic a ti o n s b e t w e e n t h e o ff ic e a n d A d v o c a te J i b a i n p a r t ic u l a r
b e f o r e w e t a l k t o a n y r e s p o n s e s b y A d v o c a te M r w e b i . W e a r e n o w o n
p a g e 4 8 p a r a g r a p h 1 - 6 - 4 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What happened on 2 August 2012

Page 21 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
w h ic h i s a t th e b o t t o m o f p a g e 4 8 ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Well maybe let us start with did General Dramat

r e c e i v e a r e s p o n s e f r o m M s J ib a t h i s ti m e i n - a f t e r t h e l e t te r o f
7 J u n e 2 0 1 2 fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r t h e r e
w a s a r e s p o n s e - a w r i tt e n r e s p o n s e .

I do know there was a - there

w a s a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n t h e t w o a n d th e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t r e s p o n d e d in
r e s p e c t o f th e m e e ti n g t h a t t o o k p l a c e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

W h e n - w h a t - o n w h a t d a te d id t h e m e e ti n g

t a k e p la c e if y o u r e m e m b e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: It was on 1 August 2012.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s o n 1 A u g u s t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d th e n o n 2 A u g u s t G e n e r a l D r a m a t w r o t e

a n o t h e r l e t t e r to A d v o c a t e J i b a ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Thanking

h e r f o r th e - fo r t h e m e e t in g a n d - a n d s t a t i n g t h a t th e m a t t e r w a s
s u ffi c i e n t ly r e s o l v e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . H o w w a s th e m a t te r r e s o l v e d ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i f I m a y r e f e r t o t h a t l e t te r

w h ic h i s K D R 1 9 .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is a t p a g e 2 - 0 - 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h a t is a l e tt e r fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t to

Ms Jiba?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 22 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

I t r e fe r s to h i s le t t e r o f 7 J u n e 2 0 1 2 a n d

t h a n k in g M s J ib a f o r a m e e ti n g t h a t w a s h e l d o n 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 2 a n d
t h e n i n th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h i t s a y s :
“ T h e m e e ti n g s u ff ic ie n tl y r e s o lv e d a l l t h e c o n c e r n s
raised

in

my

l e t t e r.

I

have

taken

note

of

s h o r tc o m in g s id e n ti fi e d d u r i n g o u r m e e ti n g a n d
h a v e i n s tr u c t e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti n g o ffic e r t o o b t a i n
in s t r u c t i o n s / g u i d a n c e fr o m t h e p r o s e c u t o r.

I w o u ld

lik e t o th a n k y o u f o r y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h e is s u e s
r a i s e d a n d th e m a n n e r in w h ic h th e y h a v e b e e n

10

addressed.”
S o th a t w a s t h e r e s p o n s e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t w a s t h e r e s p o n s e to t h e

m e e ti n g . Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O b v i o u s ly G e n e r a l D r a m a t w o u l d h a v e g iv e n y o u -

w o u ld h a v e b r ie f e d y o u o n t h e d is c u s s io n s b e tw e e n h e r s e l f ( s ic ) a n d
M s J i b a i f y o u d id n o t a t te n d t h e m e e t in g y o u r s e l f ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I d i d n o t a t t e n d th e m e e t in g
b u t h e d i d b r i e f m e , y e s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s e t a lk t o m e m o r e a b o u t h o w th e is s u e w a s
resolved.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r i f I h a d to p u t th is i n t o

c o n te x t a n d I n e e d t o g o b a c k t o th e - u p u n t il t h e e n d o f A p r i l 2 0 1 2 a l l
the

c o m m u n ic a ti o n

that

we

r e c e iv e d

fr o m

th e

N PA

came

fr o m

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a n d i n t h a t c o m m u n i c a t io n h e m a d e i t q u i t e c le a r t h a t

Page 23 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
- th a t h e r e g a r d e d t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a s c l o s e d . To m e t h e r e i s n o o t h e r
m e a n i n g t h a n t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i s s to p p e d . T h a t is h o w h e s a w i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A n d t h e n w i t h t h e a p p lic a ti o n t h a t
F U L b r o u g h t b e f o r e th e H i g h C o u r t i n - i n G a u t e n g N o r t h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id t h e m e e ti n g - d i d t h e - d id t h a t a p p l ic a ti o n - w a s
t h a t a p p li c a t io n l a u n c h e d a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g b e t w e e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t
and Ms Jiba?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o . I t w a s b e fo r e th a t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I j u s t w a n t - o h , y o u w a n t to g i v e t h e c o n te x t …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th e b a s is w a s fo r
t h e r e s o l u ti o n b u t i f y o u n e e d t o g iv e t h e c o n t e x t i t is fi n e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir a s I s a id t h e f u l l a p p l ic a ti o n
w a s l a u n c h e d I t h i n k in M a y 2 0 - 2 0 1 2 . I n th e a p p lic a ti o n i t w a s s ta t e d
that
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

S o w h e n t h e m e e ti n g w a s h e l d t h e - th e f u l l

a p p lic a ti o n h a d b e e n la u n c h e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H a d a lr e a d y b e e n l a u n c h e d C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: But had not been decided?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir. H a d n o t b e e n d e c i d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t w a s i n t h a t t i m e fr a m e w h e r e

a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i ts h a d t o b e f il e d b y t h e N PA .

S h o r t ly a f t e r t h o s e

p a p e r s w e r e fi le d a n d t h e q u e s ti o n s w e r e a s k e d a s to w h y t h e m a t te r

Page 24 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
h a s o r w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d , w h y w a s t h e m a t t e r w i th d r a w n t h e p o s it i o n
o f M r Mr w e b i c h a n g e d a n d h e t h e n s ta t e d I d i d n o t s a y t h a t t h e m a t t e r
is c l o s e d .
I s a id th e r e w e r e s h o r tc o m in g i n t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n th a t n e e d s
t o b e f i n a li s e d . S o t h a t is w h e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is w h e r e h e t h e n c h a n g e d

a ft e r t h e a p p li c a t io n w a s - w a s l a u n c h e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A n d h e a ls o m e n t io n e d th a t in h is
a ffi d a v i t - h is a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t t o t h e - i n t e r m s o f th e F U L
a p p lic a ti o n . I w a s r e q u e s te d t o s u p p l y a n a n s w e r i n g n o t a n a n s w e r i n g
a ffi d a v i t - c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : R e l a t i n g to h is a ffi d a v i t a n d in th a t
r e g a r d h e s e n t m e o r th e S t a t e A t t o r n e y s e n t m e a d r a f t a ff id a v i t fr o m
A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i . I n th e d r a f t a ffi d a v i t t h e r e w e r e v a r i o u s in a c c u r a c i e s
w h ic h I d i d n o t a g r e e w i t h . S o I s e n t s o m e th in g b a c k t o t h e m a n d s a i d
p l e a s e p r o v i d e m e w i th t h e a c t u a l s i g n e d a ffi d a v i t s o t h a t I c a n h a v e a

20

lo o k a t i t a n d th a t w a s n e v e r p r o v id e d t o m e b u t i n t e r m s o f t h o s e
in a c c u r a c i e s I - I s e n t a n e m a il t o A d v o c a t e M r w e b i s t a ti n g to h i m I d o
n o t a g r e e a n d t h is i s n o t tr u e a n d - b u t n e v e r t h e l e s s h e c o n t i n u e d w i t h
h is a ffi d a v it .
I d id n o t fi le t h e c o n f ir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i t . I n f a c t I w a s - I w a s
in f o r m e d a ft e r w a r d s t h a t m y c o n f ir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it w a s a t t a c h e d b u t i t

Page 25 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
was not signed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : My c o n f ir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i t th a t th e y
wanted

-

A d v o c a te M r w e b i

-

was

attached

to

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i ’s

response but it was not signed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a d y o u s e n t a n u n s i g n e d a ff id a v i t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o . I d i d n o t s ig n a n y a ffi d a v it . I
r e fu s e d t o s ig n a n a ff id a v i t b e c a u s e I w a s n o t - I w a s n o t g iv e n a f in a l
a ffi d a v i t fr o m A d v o c a t e M r w e b i a n d i n te r m s o f w h a t h e s e n t in h i s d r a f t
10

a ffi d a v i t I d i d n o t a g r e e w h a t h e s a i d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i s th e p o s it i o n t h a t t h e S t a te A t t o r n e y h a d

p r e p a r e d a n a ffi d a v it t h a t y o u w e r e - th a t y o u w e r e a s k e d t o lo o k a t
w i t h a v i e w t o s i g n in g b u t y o u l o o k e d a t i t a n d y o u d i d n o t a g r e e w i t h i t
a n d - b u t u l t i m a te ly t h a t u n s ig n e d a ff id a v i t w a s p la c e d b e f o r e t h e
c o u r t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

The

answering

a ffi d a v it

of

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e c o u r t a n d a t t a c h e d to th a t w a s my
c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it w h ic h I r e f u s e d to s i g n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n u n s ig n e d a ffi d a v it b y y o u ?
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A n d u n s i g n e d a ffi d a v i t m y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Fr o m m y s i d e a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : My …

Page 26 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e - th e u n s i g n e d a ffi d a v i t w a s n o t i n a c c o r d a n c e

w h i t t h e fa c t s a s y o u k n e w t h e m ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir b e c a u s e t h a t
is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d i t h a d n o t b e e n p r e p a r e d a t y o u r r e q u e s t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o C h a ir. I t h a d n o t b e e n - I w a s
ju s t - I w a s ju s t e m a il e d t h e - t h e a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t to g e t h e r w i th m y
c o n fir m a t o r y a ff id a v i t a n d t h e c o n t e n ts t h e r e o f a n d I s a i d I d o n o t
agree.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W o u l d - w o u ld i t h a v e b e e n t h e S t a t e A t to r n e y
w h o e m a i l e d it t o - t h e O ffi c e o f t h e S t a t e A t t o r n e y ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

And did you understand - did you ever get to know

fr o m t h e m w h a t - w h e r e t h e y g o t t h e i n f o r ma t io n fr o m o n t h e b a s i s o f
w h ic h th e y p r e p a r e d t h a t a ff id a v i t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir m y c o n f ir m a t o r y a ffi d a v i t

o n ly s t a te d th a t I c o n f ir m c e r t a i n p a r a g r a p h s …
CHAIRPERSON: What was said?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C e r t a in p a r a g r a p h s i n t h e a ff i d a v i t
o f - o f A d v o c a te M r w e b i .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

O k a y.

So - so they may have expected

that …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir …

Page 27 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r v e r s i o n a n d M r Mr w e b i’s v e r s i o n w o u l d b e t h e

same?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir

humble apologies

for

th e

in t e r r u p t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B u t I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e is n o

a u d io w h a ts o e v e r …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d I a m n o t s u r e f o r h o w lo n g

e i t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr ig h t . W e w i ll a d j o u r n a g a i n . H o p e f u l ly i t i s g o i n g
t o b e s o r te d o u t o n c e a n d f o r a ll . W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t ’s p r o c e e d .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

C h a i r d id y o u h a v e a n y fu r t h e r

q u e s t io n s f o l lo w in g … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll d o w e k n o w h o w m u c h w a s c o v e r e d a n d h o w

m u c h w a s n ’ t c o v e r e d , I t h i n k t h a t w e m u s t g o b a c k j u s t a l it t le b it t o
m a k e s u r e th a t e v e r y th i n g t h a t h e s a id w a s c o v e r e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o p r o b le m C h a ir.

I th in k w h e r e w e w e r e i s th a t I h a d I h a d a s k e d y o u ,

Page 28 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M r R o e l o fs e t o te ll m e w h a t t h e b a s i s w a s o n w h ic h y o u r c o n c e r n s a n d
t h o s e o f M r D r a m a t – G e n e r a l D r a m a t w e r e r e s o l v e d b y t h e m e e ti n g
t h a t t o o k p la c e b e t w e e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d M is s J i b a a n d y o u w e r e
t e ll i n g t h e s to r y a n d y o u s a id t h a t Fr e e d o m U n d e r L a w h a d l a u n c h e d a n
a p p lic a ti o n to t h e H ig h C o u r t in t h e m e a n ti m e a n d I t h i n k i t w a s a n
a p p lic a ti o n t o h a v e t h e d e c i s i o n t o w it h d r a w c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l
M d lu li , w i t h d r a w n th e y w a n t e d t o h a v e t h a t d e c is i o n s e t a s i d e , is th a t
correct?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

N o w y o u s a i d th a t th e o ffic e o f t h e S t a te A t t o r n e y

w h ic h I t a k e it w o u l d h a v e r e p r e s e n t e d t h e N PA h a d fo r w a r d e d , t o y o u ,
A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e ’s a ffi d a v i t th a t w a s t o b e fi l e d in C o u r t i n r e g a r d to
h is r o le o n t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d
t h e y h a d p r e p a r e d a c o n fir m a t o r y a ffi d a v it w h ic h t h e y w a n t e d y o u t o
c o n s i d e r s i g n i n g w h ic h , i f y o u h a d s i g n e d it w o u l d h a v e c o n f ir m e d t h a t
t h e v e r s io n o u r A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f t h e
c h a r g e s w a s f a c tu a lly c o r r e c t a n d y o u l o o k e d a t t h e a ff i d a v i t o f M r
M a g w e b e a n d y o u c o n c l u d e d t h a t y o u w e r e n o t i n a p o s i ti o n to c o n f ir m
t h a t v e r s i o n b e c a u s e i t w a s i n a c c u r a t e in c e r t a in r e s p e c t s a n d y o u
20

in f o r m e d t h e o ff ic e o f t h e S t a t e A t t o r n e y a c c o r d in g ly, is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, I n o t o n l y

in f o r m e d t h e m I a ls o i n f o r m e d A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u in f o r m t h e m b y w a y o f a n e m a i l , a

m e m o r a n d u m o r h o w d id y o u i n fo r m th e m ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n e m a il C h a ir.

Page 29 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s a m e w a s e m a i l w a s s e n t t o t h e o ffic e o f t h e

S t a te A t t o r n e y a s w e l l a s Mr M a g w e b e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t c h a ir.

And did that email point out in what respects you

t h o u g h t M r M a g w e b e ’s v e r s i o n w a s n o t c o r r e c t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s d o w e h a v e t h a t e m a i l h e r e ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

U n f o r t u n a t e ly C h a i r I d o n ’t h a v e i t

h e r e i t w a s p r e s e n te d to t h e M o k g o r o C o m m i s s io n a n d I – b e c a u s e w e
10

o n ly d e a lt w i t h th is i s s u e r e g a r d in g th is N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty
n o t in d e t a il , I d i d n ’ t a tt a c h i t t o t h is a ff id a v i t.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y b u t i t is – y o u c a n fi n d i t i f n e c e s s a r y ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t i s a v a i la b le .

Ye s I w o u ld l ik e to s e e i t, i f y o u c a n m a k e

a r r a n g e m e n ts to m a k e it a v a i l a b l e t o th e l e g a l te a m .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I w i ll d o s o C h a ir.

S o – b u t y o u s a y th a t – y o u s a i d t h a t n e i th e r th e

S t a te A t t o r n e y ’s o ff ic e n o r A d v o c a te M a g w e b e r e v e r t e d t o y o u a f te r
receiving your email?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e d id

revert back to me.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja what did he say?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e w a s t e l li n g m e I m u s t n o t p u t

in a c c u r a t e i n f o r m a t i o n in t h e p u b li c d o m a i n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Just repeat that?

Page 30 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e s a i d i n h is e m a i l t h a t I – h e

d o e s n ’t k n o w w h a t I ’ m t a l k i n g a b o u t a n d I s h o u ld b e c a r e f u l n o t t o p u t
in a c c u r a t e in f o r m a ti o n i n t h e p u b l ic d o m a in .

N o w w h a t e x a c t ly h e

m e a n t b y t h a t I d o n ’ t k n o w, h e d i d n o t d e a l w i t h th e is s u e s th a t I h a d ,
h e ju s t m a d e a b r o a d s t a t e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h e o ff ic e o f t h e S t a t e A t to r n e y d i d n o t c o m e

– revert to you?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir n o b o d y r e v e r t e d b a c k t o

m e a ft e r t h a t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

S o – b u t fr o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g it w o u ld s e e m

t h e r e f o r e t h a t t h e o ffic e o f t h e S t a t e A t t o r n e y w a s a w a r e o r b e c a m e
a w a r e th r o u g h y o u r e m a i l t h a t t h e – y o u w e r e n o t i n a g r e e m e n t w i t h t h e
version put up by Mr Magwebe?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h e y m u s t

h a v e b e e n b e c a u s e i t w a s a d d r e s s e d t o t h e a t to r n e y d e a li n g w it h th e
m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t t h e y n e v e r p r e p a r e d a n a ff id a v i t t h a t w o u l d

r e fl e c t w h a t y o u s a id t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o s i g n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

N o C h a ir th e y n e v e r – t h e y n e v e r

d i d th a t , I n e v e r r e c e iv e d a n a ff i d a v i t i n te r m s o f w h a t I h a d t o s a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u , a n d th e n o f c o u r s e w h e n y o u

g e t t h a t e m a i l th a t y o u s e n t to t h e o ff ic e o f t h e S t a t e A t t o r n e y a n d
A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e , i f y o u c a n a l s o g e t h is r e s p o n s e t o y o u r e m a il i f
t h a t ’s – i f i t ’s p o s s i b le t o g e t i t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I w i ll d o s o C h a ir.

Page 31 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:
that

you

have

not

addressed

J u s t t o c o v e r s o m e o f th e g r o u n d
as

yet,

if

you

can

go

back

to

p a g e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry Miss September I don’t think that we have

g o t t o t h e a n s w e r t o my q u e s t i o n a n d t h a t ’s p r o b a b l y b e c a u s e I’v e b e e n
a s k in g y o u a l o t o f q u e s t i o n s , n a m e l y w h a t w a s t h e b a s is o n w h ic h th e
is s u e s o r y o u r c o n c e r n s a n d t h o s e o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t r e s o l v e d a t th e
b e t w e e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d M is s J i b a ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I – t h is is n o w w h a t I

d e d u c e d a s to w h a t h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e a t th e ti m e w i t h t h e f u ll
a p p lic a ti o n I t h i n k t h e r e w a s a r e a l is a ti o n t h a t A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e h a d a
p r o b le m i n t e r m s o f h i s r e s p o n s e – h is p r e v io u s r e s p o n s e s a b o u t t h e
c a s e n o t b e i n g – th a t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n n e e d s t o b e s t o p p e d . S o i n t h e
a ffi d a v i ts th a t w e r e p r e p a r e d f o r t h e f u l l a p p lic a ti o n b y th e N PA i t
s t a te d

that

the

i n v e s ti g a ti o n s

were

never

stopped

but

c e r ta i n

d e f ic i e n c ie s h a d t o b e a d d r e s s e d a n d o n c e t h a t i s d o n e t h e c a s e w ill b e
p l a c e d b a c k o n t h e r o ll – t h e C o u r t r o l l.

T h a t is , i n s h o r t w h a t

a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i ts o f M r M a g w e b e s ta t e d w h ic h i s in c o n t r a s t to w h a t
20

h e h a s w r i t t e n t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t. S o t h e r e w a s a – I t h i n k a f t e r t h e y
s a w th e a ffi d a v it , t h e fo u n d in g a ffi d a v it t h e y d e c i d e d t o – o r h e d e c id e d
t o c h a n g e h is v e r s i o n a n d t h e v e r s i o n th e n w e n t, I d id n o t w i th d r a w, th e
m a t t e r w a s n ’ t s to p p e d , t h e m a t t e r is s t il l c o n t in u i n g th e r e i s c e r t a i n
in v e s t i g a t io n o u ts ta n d i n g a n d th a t ’s w h y i t ’s n o t b e i n g p l a c e d b a c k o n
t h e C o u r t r o ll . B a s e d o n th a t t h e r e w a s t h e n a m e e ti n g w i th A d v o c a t e

Page 32 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
J ib a w h i c h th e n w a s r e s o lv e d o n t h e p r e m is e th a t t h e r e i s n o w – t h e r e
is s ti ll i n v e s t i g a t io n to b e d e a l t w i th .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay let me try and understand that because you see

t h e le t t e r fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t o f th e 2 n d o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 2 w h i c h w a s
s e n t t o M is s J i b a f o l lo w i n g t h e m e e ti n g t h a t t h e tw o o f th e m h a d o n th e
1 s t o f A u g u s t s e e ms t o r e fl e c t s a t is fa c t io n o n t h e p a r t o f G e n e r a l
D r a m a t t h a t t h e is s u e s t h a t h e h a d b e e n r a is i n g , t o w h ic h M is s J i b a w a s
n o t r e s p o n d i n g – h a d n o t b e e n r e s p o n d in g u n ti l t h e n w e r e s a t is f a c t o r i ly
r e s o l v e d . N o w a s f a r a s I r e c a l l , w h a t t h e c o n c e r n w a s fr o m y o u a n d
10

General Dramat –

th e

concern

was,

t h is

d e c is i o n

M a g w e b e , to w i th d r a w t h e c h a r g e s is u n a c c e p ta b l e .

by Advocate

Yo u a s t h e fi n a l

a u t h o r i ty a t th e N PA , w e a r e a s k i n g y o u t o r e v i e w th is d e c is i o n t h a t is
w h a t th e c o n c e r n w a s , a m I r i g h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o m y q u e s ti o n i s , d i d M is s J i b a , a t t h a t m e e t in g

c o n fir m t h a t A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e h a d w i t h d r a w n t h e d e c is io n – th e
c h a r g e s b u t s h e h a d n o w d e c i d e d to r e v i e w i t a n d t h e m a t t e r w il l b e
p l a c e d o n t h e r o l l o n c e c e r t a i n is s u e s h a d b e e n s o r t e d o u t b y w a y o f
in v e s t i g a t io n o r d i d s h e s a y, lo o k , it s e e ms t h e r e h a s b e e n a
20

m is u n d e r s t a n d i n g h e r e , th e r e ’s b e e n n o w i th d r a w a l o f c h a r g e s t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n m u s t c o v e r c e r t a i n is s u e s . O n c e th e y a r e c o v e r e d th e
m a t t e r w il l b e p l a c e d o n t h e r o ll a g a i n , w h a t e x a c t ly d i d s h e s a y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a s I s ta t e d I w a s n ’t a t t h e

m e e ti n g , f r o m w h a t I u n d e r s t o o d G e n e r a l D r a m a t to s a y a s t o w h a t h a d
h a p p e n e d is th a t t h e r e w a s n e v e r a n i n t e n ti o n t o s to p th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n

Page 33 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
a s p e r o u r r e q u e s t t o r e v i e w t h is d e c is i o n o f Mr M a g w e b e .

S o th e

p o s i ti o n h a s c h a n g e d t o t h e v i e w t h e r e w a s n e v e r a d e c is io n to s t o p s o
t h a t is o n t h a t p r e mi s e th a t s h e s p o k e t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t a s i f t h e r e
w e r e n o d e c i s i o n t h a t th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n h a d t o s to p . Th a t is w h y I a m
s a y in g t h a t w h e n A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e c h a n g e d h is v e r s i o n o f e v e n ts
a ft e r t h e f u l l a p p l ic a ti o n w h e r e s u d d e n ly th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s n ’ t
s t o p p e d i t w a s n o w – t h e r e w a s c e r ta i n i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o u t s ta n d i n g a n d
b a s e d o n th a t w e s a i d , fi n e w e w il l c o n ti n u e a n d I t h i n k t h a t’s w h e r e t h e
s a ti s f a c t io n c a m e fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t t h a t w e n o w c a n c o n t in u e a n d
10

t h e r e w i ll b e a Pr o s e c u t o r t h a t w il l d e a l w i t h t h e m a tt e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I w i ll w a n t u s t o g o b a c k to t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e

fr o m M r M a g w e b e j u s t to c h e c k h o w, w h a t h e w r o te t h e r e m a t c h e s u p
w i t h y o u u n d e r s to o d w a s th e p o s i ti o n th a t w a s ta k e n b y h i m i n r e g a r d t o
t h e fu ll a p p lic a ti o n a s w e l l a s w h a t M is s J i b a m a y h a v e s a i d t o G e n e r a l
Dramat but at the time that Advocate Ma gwebe made the decision to
withdraw the charges, had General Mdluli pleaded to the charges in
C o u r t o r n o t a s fa r a s y o u r e c a ll ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

T h e y h a v e n o t p l e a d e d y e t?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir th e y h a v e n o t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

N o C h a ir th e y h a v e n ’ t .

B e c a u s e i f th e P r o s e c u t o r w i t h d r a w s c h a r g e s b e fo r e

t h e a c c u s e d h a s p le a d e d , y o u a s t h e p o l ic e c a n ’ t b e p r e v e n t e d b y
a n y b o d y c a n y o u , fr o m d o in g f u r t h e r in v e s ti g a ti o n a n d i f t h e P r o s e c u t o r
t h o u g h t t h a t a l l t h e i n fo r m a ti o n a v a i la b l e a t t h e ti m e th e r e w a s n o t a
p r o p e r c a s e , y o u c a n ’ t b e p r e v e n t e d fr o m p u r s u in g t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n

Page 34 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
a n d t h e n l a t e r o n s u b m i tt i n g t h e s a m e m a t t e r t o t h e N PA f o r a n e w
d e c is i o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I a g r e e w i t h y o u b e c a u s e

t h a t is t h e s i t u a t i o n . I n t h is r e g a r d b e c a u s e o f t h e l e t te r s t h a t A d v o c a t e
M a g w e b e w r o t e a n d i t – a n d I’ m r e f e r r i n g s p e c i f ic a l ly to tw o l e t te r s , in
w h ic h o n e h e s t a t e s t h a t t h e I G I h a d t h e m a n d a te t o i n v e s t ig a t e a n d w e
c a n n o t i n v e s t ig a t e , i t f a lls w i t h i n o u r m a n d a t e a n d

h e w e n t a s fa r a s

s a y in g t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n is ill e g a l a n d in t h e s e c o n d le t t e r w h ic h h e t h e n
– o n a n s w e r in g t h e I G I l e t te r, h e t h e n s a id th a t th e m a n d a t e fa ll s w i th in
10

t h e s c o p e o f t h e A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l o r th e A c c o u n ti n g G e n e r a l t o
in v e s t i g a t e t h e m a t te r a n d t h a t w e w e r e a ls o o u ts id e o u r m a n d a t e i n
t h a t i t ’s w i t h t h e m a s w e ll a s t h e P a r l i a m e n t a r y C o m m i t t e e o r t h e
I n t e lli g e n c e C o m m i t t e e a t P a r li a m e n t, i t is w i t h i n th e ir m a n d a te . S o h i s
r e a s o n f o r s to p p i n g th e in v e s t i g a t io n t h e n c h a n g e d fr o m t h e I G I to t h e
A G a n d th e n b a s e d o n th a t t h e r e ’s n o o t h e r c o n c lu s i o n fr o m m y s i d e
o th e r t h a n h e s t o p p e d th e in v e s ti g a t io n b u t y o u ’r e q u i te r i g h t I d id n o t
s t o p th e in v e s ti g a t io n , I c o n ti n u e d w it h t h e in v e s ti g a t io n b e c a u s e i n t h e
li g h t o f w h a t Mr – C o l o n e l N a id o o h a s t o l d u s b u t w e d id n ’ t h a v e a n y
r e c o u r s e a s t o g o b a c k to C o u r t if t h e N PA i s n o t g o i n g t o l o o k a t t h e

20

d o c k e t i ts e l f .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , l e t ’s g o t o t h o s e l e t te r s a g a i n fr o m A d v o c a t e

M a g w e b e , I ju s t w a n t t o h a v e a lo o k a t th e m .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o p r o b l e m C h a ir Mr R o e lo f s e y o u

m e n ti o n e d th a t th e r e w a s a l e t te r a s s u c h w h ic h s o u g h t t o r e ly o n t h e
I G I a n d t h a t w a s a l e t te r b y A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e , is t h a t r i g h t b e c a u s e

Page 35 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
w e u n d e r s t a n d i t t o b e t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s th a t w e r e i n fa c t m a d e i n
s u p p o r t o f t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d
Colonel Barnard.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir th a t i s w h a t I’ m a c tu a l ly

r e fe r r i n g t o , i t ’s t h e m e m o o f w h ic h th e d a te i s n o t k n o w w h e th e r it ’s
the 4th or the 5t h.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n d e e d s o c a n I a s k y o u to tu r n t o

p a g e 1 4 0 p le a s e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .
Is that the memorandum that you

w e r e r e f e r r i n g to ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
And

i t’s

in

th is

p a r t ic u l a r

memorandum that reference is made that the IGI is the authority that
o u g h t t o b e c o n s id e r in g i t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d i f I c a n a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e

1 4 6 … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

J u s t h a n g o n p l e a s e , s o i n th a t m e m o r a n d u m

Advocate Magwebe among other things says, that is the memorandum
d a t e d 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 a d d r e s s e d to A d v o c a t e S M z iy a ti a n d a c o p y
b e i n g s e n t to A d v o c a te G l y n n i s B r e y te n b a c h , o n e i t s a y s t h a t h e h a d
c o n s u l t e d w i t h A d v o c a te M z iy a ti w it h t h e p u r p o s e o f c o n v e y in g h is
v ie w s o n t h e m a t t e r a n d t h e n h e s a y s t h a t t h e m a t t e r f e l l s q u a r e ly
w i t h i n th e m a n d a t e o f t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l in t e r m s o f t h e I n te ll ig e n c e

Page 36 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
S e r v ic e s O v e r s i g h t A c t a n d n u m b e r 4 0 o f 1 9 9 4 a n d th e n h e s a y s ,
“ I n o te d th a t i t is o n l y t h e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l w h o , b y l a w is
a u t h o r i s e d t o h a v e f u l l a c c e s s t o t h e C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e
d o c u m e n ts

and

in f o r m a t io n

and

thus

who

c o u ld

g iv e

a

c o m p le t e v i e w o f t h e m a t te r a s t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n s c a n n e v e r b e
c o m p le t e w it h o u t a c c e s s to s u c h d o c u m e n ts a n d i n fo r m a ti o n .
I n m y v i e w th e p r o c e s s f o ll o w e d i n t h i s m a t t e r is p o s s i b l y
ill e g a l a s b e in g in c o n tr a v e n t io n t o t h e s a i d p r o v is i o n s o f t h e
I n t e lli g e n c e S e r v ic e s O v e r s ig h t Ac t ” ,
10

A n d t h e n h e r e fe r s t o r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s r e c e iv e d fr o m th e
a tt o r n e y s r e p r e s e n t in g M r M d l u l i a n d h e s a y s t h a t,
“ T h e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s s e e k a w i t h d r a w a l o f th e c r i m i n a l c a s e
a g a in s t G e n e r a l M d l u l i o n th e g r o u n d s t h a t t h e I n s ti t u ti o n o f
t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n p r o s e c u ti o n a g a i n s t h i m is a n a b u s e o f t h e
C r i m i n a l J u s t ic e Sy s te m a n d th e n h e s a y s , th e p u r p o s e o f t h i s
d o c u m e n t , t h e r e f o r e , i s t o d e a l w i th a n d r e c o r d a d e c is i o n o n
t h e m a t te r. I t is th e f u r t h e r a i m t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t s s h a l l s e r v e
as

a

c o n s u lt a ti v e

document with

the

D ir e c to r

o f P u b li c

P r o s e c u t io n s [i n d is t in c t ] r e q u ir e d b y S e c t i o n 2 4 ( 3 ) o f t h e N PA
20

Act”.
W e d i d lo o k a t t h is m e m o y e s t e r d a y b u t I j u s t w a n t t o c h e c k
c e r t a i n th in g s in t h e c o n t e x t o f w h a t w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h n o w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

The assertions made, if I may with

r e g a r d t o t h e I G I is i f C h a ir t u r n s t o p a g e 1 4 6 i n c o n te x t i t r e a d s fr o m
p a r a g r a p h 1 7 a n d c o n ti n u e s … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

Page 37 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry page 146?

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

1 4 6 C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 1 7 s e ts i t in t o

c o n te x t w h e r e h e s a y s th a t ,
“ W h e th e r th e r e w a s e v i d e n c e in th e m a tt e r o r n o t i s m y v i e w
n o t i m p o r t a n t f o r my d e c i s i o n in t h e m a t t e r a n d t h e n h e g o e s
o n t o s p e a k a b o u t ” … [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, I ’ m s o r r y p a r a g r a p h 1 7 , i t ’s p a r a g r a p h 1 6

he says,
“ T h e e v i d e n c e i n t h e d o c k e t a s w e ll a s t h e r e p o r t o f t h e
p r o s e c u t o r d o n o t s e e m to h e l p i n t h e m a t t e r e i t h e r, th is s ta t e

10

o f a ff a ir s l e a v e s o n e w i t h a n u m b e r o f q u e s t io n s a b o u t h o w
b o t h t h e in v e s ti g a t o r a n d t h e p r o s e c u ti o n h a n d l e d th e m a t t e r.
A s m a t te r s s t a n d t h e r e w a s c l e a r l y n o r e a s o n a b l e a n d p r o b a b l e
g r o u n d fo r a n y p r o s e c u ti o n i n th e m a t t e r p a r t ic u l a r ly a g a in s t
M d lu li ” .
S o t h e r e h e is s a y i n g th e p r o s e c u ti o n w a s p u r s u e d w i t h o u t a n y
reasonable

and

probable

grounds,

so

in

fact

h e ’s

s a y in g

the

p r o s e c u t i o n s h o u l d n ’ t h a v e – s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n in i ti a te d , t h e n in 1 7
he says,
20

“However because of the view I hold of the matter I do not
p r o p o s e t o t r a v e r s e t h e m e r it s o f t h e c a s e a n d t h e o t h e r
q u e s t io n s a n y f u r t h e r w h e th e r t h e r e w a s e v id e n c e i n t h e m a t t e r
o r n o t i s , i n m y v i e w n o t i m p o r t a n t f o r my d e c is i o n in th e
m a t t e r. T h e p r o p o s i ti o n w h ic h I a l l u d e to b e l o w s h o u l d , a l o n e
a n d w i t h o u t a n y f u r t h e r a d o b e d is p o s i ti v e o f t h e m a t t e r ” .

Page 38 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
S o t h a t s e e m s t o s u g g e s t t h a t h e is s a y in g , ir r e s p e c ti v e o f
w h a t e v i d e n c e t h e r e m a y b e o n t h e m e r it s th e p o i n t I ’ m g o i n g t o c o m e
u p w i t h m e a n s t h is s h o u l d b e t h e e n d , t h a t ’s h o w I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t
paragraph.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
paragraph

18

and

19

he

Ye s C h a ir a n d h e g o e s fu r th e r, i n

t a lk s

s p e c i fic a lly

to

the

Inspector

G e n e r a l … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

I t c o n c l u d e s in p a r a g r a p h 2 0 o n

page 147.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on paragraph 18,

“ M d l u li a n d B a r n a r d a r e m e m b e r s o f t h e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e
D i v is io n o f t h e S o u th A f r i c a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e w h ic h is p a r t o f
t h e I n t e ll i g e n c e S t r u c t u r e s o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d a s s u c h t h e ir
c o n d u c t a n d a c t iv it i e s a r e s u b j e c t to t h e l a w s , r e g u la t io n s ,
p o li c i e s a n d p r o c e d u r e s g o v e r n in g t h e I n t e l li g e n c e c o m m u n it y.
o f i m p o r ta n c e

fo r

the

present purposes

th e

In t e l li g e n c e

O v e r s i g h t A c t 4 0 o f 1 9 9 4 , t h e A c t i n S e c ti o n 7 t h e r e o f e s ta b lis h
t h e o ffi c e o f t h e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l a n d d e fi n e s i t ’s fu n c t io n s
20

a n d t h e n 1 9 , in t e r m s o f S e c t i o n 7 7 C ( A ) o f th e A c t t h e
I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l i n r e la t io n t o s e r v i c e s h a s a fu n c t io n t o
r e c e i v e a n d in v e s ti g a t e c o m p la i n t s f r o m m e m b e r s o f t h e p u b l ic
a n d m e m b e r s o f th e s e r v ic e s o n a ll e g e d m a l a d m i n i s tr a t io n ,
a b u s e o f p o w e r, t r a n s g r e s s i o n s o f t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l l a w s a n d
p o li c i e s r e f e r r e d i n p a r a g r a p h A , t h e c o m m is s i o n o f a n o ff e n c e

Page 39 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
r e fe r r e d t o i n p a r t 1 to 4 th e n r e f e r s t o S e c t io n s .

I t w il l b e

n o t e d th a t th e o ffe n c e s f o r w h i c h M d l u l i is c h a r g e d f a lls
s q u a r e ly w i t h i n t h e m a n d a te o f th e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l a s
quoted above”,
Ye s , y o u w a n t to c o n ti n u e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o C h a ir t h a t i s o n e o f t h e

r e a s o n s th a t h e r e l ie s o n i n o r d e r t o m a k e t h e d e c is io n t h a t h e d o e s
a n d i f I c a n d ir e c t y o u r a t te n ti o n to a n o t h e r s e n t e n c e w h ic h t a lk s to
y o u r q u e r y C h a ir, o n p a g e 1 4 8 p a r a g r a p h 2 2 , s ix l in e s i n to th a t
10

p a r a g r a p h t h e s e n te n c e b e g in s ,
“ W i th a n y i n v e s ti g a ti o n o f t h e k in d i n th e p r e s e n t c a s e w o u l d
b e f u ti le w it h o u t t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l a s
t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s w h ic h M d lu li is c h a r g e d w i th c a n o n ly b e
e x p l a i n e d in te r ms o f t h e in t e r n a l a p p l ic a b l e p r o c e d u r e s ,
p o li c i e s ,

processes

and

s y s t e ms

w h ic h

the

ordinary

in v e s t i g a t o r h a s n o a c c e s s t o ” .
A n d h i s fi n a l c o n c l u s io n s i s r e c o r d e d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 6 , 2 7 a n d
2 8 o f t h is l e t te r o n p a g e 1 4 9 .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

“ I’ m a fr a i d th a t o n t h e f a c e o f i t , i t a p p e a r s th a t t h e

m a n n e r t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s w e n t a b o u t d e a l in g w i t h t h is m a t t e r
a s s is ts [i n d is t in c t ] b y t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e N a t io n a l Pr o s e c u t in g
A u t h o r i ty m a y p o s s i b l y b e in b r e a c h o f t h e S e c u r i ty R e g u l a ti o n ,
h o w e v e r, a s i t a p p e a r s t h a t e v e r y b o d y c o n c e r n e d i n t h is m a tt e r
m u s t h a v e c o m m i t te d a b o n e fi d e e r r o r o f la w in th is r e g a r d , i t
is n o t t o o l a te t o r e m e d y t h e s it u a ti o n b u t b y r e f e r r in g t h e

Page 40 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
matter

to

the

I n s p e c to r

General in

terms

o f S e c ti o n

7

a c c o r d i n g l y a n d b a s e d o n t h e a b o v e p r o s e c u ti o n o f t h e m a t te r
c a n n o t c o n ti n u e .

T h e i n v e s ti g a to r m u s t a d v is e t h e s e c e r t a i n

m e m b e r s o f t h e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e t o r e f e r th e ir c o m p l a in t t o
t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l f o r c o n s id e r a ti o n a n d a n y s u b s e q u e n t
s t e p s w i ll b e g u i d e d b y w h a t t h e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l a d v i s e s .
T h e Pr o s e c u t o r is a c c o r d i n g ly i n s tr u c te d t o w i t h d r a w t h e
charges against both General Mdluli and Colonel Barnard
i m m e d i a t e ly ” ,
S o t h e r e ’s n o d o u b t t h a t h e g a v e a n in s t r u c t i o n th a t t h e

10

c h a r g e s b e w i th d r a w n .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e r e ’s n o d o u b t t h a t t h e r e a s o n h e a d v a n c e d w a s

t h a t , to s a y th e le a s t 1 ) o n w h a t w a s in t h e d o c k e t t h e r e w a s n o
r e a s o n a b l e a n d p r o b a b l e c a u s e t o i n i ti a t e t h e p r o s e c u ti o n a g a in s t th e
t w o b u t 2 ) h e w a s s a y i n g , n o in v e s t i g a t io n r e l a ti n g to t h i s m a t te r w o u l d
b e c o m p le t e w i th o u t i n v o lv i n g t h e o ffic e o f t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l , is
t h a t r ig h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

W e l l w h a t d o e s n ’ t s e e m t o c o m e a c r o s s c le a r ly, a t

le a s t a s I r e a d t h i s a n d y o u m i g h t b e a b le t o a s s i s t is w h e t h e r w h a t h e
means is, the – Inspector General must play her role depending on
w h a t e m e r g e s a f t e r s h e h a s p l a y e d r o l e th e m a t t e r m i g h t s t il l b e
pursued.

I t d o e s n ’t c o m e o u t w h e t h e r h e w a s s a y in g a n y th i n g a b o u t

t h a t , s o in o t h e r w o r d s i t d o e s n ’ t s e e m t o b e c l e a r w h e t h e r

Page 41 of 233

he was

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
s a y in g , w i t h d r a w t h e c h a r g e s f o r n o w, i f l a te r o n w e r e c e iv e s o m e t h i n g
fr o m t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l t h a t c h a n g e s th e p ic tu r e th e n w e m a y
r e i n s t a te t h e c h a r g e s , is t h a t r i g h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I th i n k y o u r – I t h i n k i t is

c o r r e c t , u n f o r tu n a te ly I h a d t h e – I a l s o h a d s i g h t o f th e o t h e r
d o c u m e n ts s o m a y b e m y m i n d is a li t t le b it p o i s o n e d i n t e r m s o f w h a t
I’ m r e a d i n g h e r e … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t w h a t y o u a r e f r e e to s a y is , y e s t h a t ’s t h e

p ic t u r e t h a t e m e r g e s fr o m t h is d o c u m e n t b u t w h e n o n e h a s r e g a r d to
10

o th e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o r o t h e r d o c u m e n ts t h e p ic t u r e c h a n g e s a n d t h e n
y o u c a n t e l l m e a b o u t th o s e o th e r s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I w il l d o s o C h a ir w h a t c a m e o u t

o f t h i s d o c u m e n t f o r m e is th e fa c t t h a t h e w a n t e d t h e in v e s t i g a t io n o u t
o f t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n P o l ic e a n d w i th i n t h e m a n d a t e I G I .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e l e t t e r th a t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 1 5 7

o f t h e b u n d le w h ic h i s a l e t te r fr o m t h e I G I t o L ie u t e n a n t G e n e r a l
N k w a n a z i , is h o w e v e r, d i s p o s i tiv e o f th e m a n d a t e o f t h e I G I a n d i n
p a r t ic u l a r a ff ir m s t h a t t h e m a n d a t e o f c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n s r e s ts
20

s o l e ly w i t h t h e p o l ic e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d i t w a s a ls o th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n

o f t h e I G I o ffic e t h a t t h e m a t te r b e r e fe r r e d b a c k t o t h e N PA f o r t h e
in s t i tu t io n o f t h e c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 42 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So on the 19th of March 2012 there

c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a n y d o u b t a s to w h a t t h e m a n d a te w a s o f t h e I G I
r e l a ti v e t o t h is m a t te r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a t w a s t h e fir s t i s s u e th a t w a s

r a i s e d i n s o f a r a s t h e o ff ic e o f th e I G I is c o n c e r n e d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t .
T h e o t h e r is s u e t h a t y o u m e n t i o n e d

e a r l ie r w a s th a t w h ic h r e l a t e d to t h e A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l ’s o ff ic e .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f I c a n a s k y o u t o g o to p a g e

47…[intervenes].
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir i f I m a y.

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

P a g e 1 6 0 f o l lo w s a f t e r t h e l e tt e r

fr o m t h e I G I w h e r e it w a s n o w r e v e r t e d b a c k to t h e N PA f o r p r o s e c u ti o n
a s p e r t h e l e t t e r fr o m t h e I G I .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

A n d t h e n I w a n t t o r e fe r t o th e

next Annexure, page 162.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , p a r a g r a p h 2 , 3 a n d 4 .

J a i t ’s a l e t te r fr o m A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e a g a i n t o

General Dramat.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 43 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

Paragraph 2 you say?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

2, 3 and 4.

D o y o u w a n t t o r e a d th e m ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
“ I w is h t o a d v is e t h a t t h e o ffic e o f th e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l o f
I n t e lli g e n c e h a s n o o v e r s i g h t fu n c t io n a n d p o w e r o f r e v i e w w i th
r e g a r d to p r o s e c u to r i a l d e c is io n s .
the

N PA is

an

I a l s o w is h t o r e m in d th a t

i n d e p e n d e n t in s t i tu t io n

d e c is i o n s a r e i t s s o l e p r e r o g a t iv e .
10

and

p r o s e c u to r i a l

T h e v ie w o f t h e I G

f o ll o w i n g y o u r s o lic i ta t io n o f h e r o p in io n o n t h e N PA d e c is i o n
o n t h e m a t t e r b a s e d o n th e d o c u m e n t w h ic h t h e p o l ic e o r
a n y b o d y e ls e w e r e n o t e v e n l e g a l ly e n ti t l e d t o p o s s e s s i s f o r
y o u r c o n s u m p t io n a n d d o e s n o t a ff e c t t h e d e c i s i o n t a k e n o n
t h e m a t t e r.

Th e N PA t o o k a p r i n c ip l e d a n d c o n s id e r a te

d e c is i o n o n t h i s m a t t e r w it h o u t f e a r o r fa v o u r a s is r e q u ir e d t o
d o in t e r m s o f t h e l a w, th a t d e c is io n s t a n d s a n d t h e m a tt e r is
c lo s e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o t h e r e is t h a t, t h e m a t t e r is c lo s e d t h a t y o u

t a lk e d a b o u t e a r l ie r ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d i t a l s o

d e a ls w i t h th e c o n s u l t a tiv e n o t e t h a t h e h a s n o w – t h a t h e h a s g iv e n o n
t h e 4 t h o f D e c e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So – so your point is when you – when one

r e a d s th e m e m o r a n d u m t o w h ic h I r e fe r r e d e a r li e r o n o n e m a y b e
g e t t in g th e i m p r e s s io n t h a t i t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly s a y w h a t w o u l d

Page 44 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
h a p p e n a ft e r t h e I G I o ffic e h a d d o n e p la y e d i ts r o l e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u – w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g is w h e n y o u r e a d th e
o th e r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n c lu d in g t h is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d t a k e a l l th e
correspondence

and

th e

notes

or

memorandums

together

the

c o n c l u s i o n c a n o n ly b e th a t A d v o c a t e M r w e b i s a w t h i s a s t h e e n d o f t h e
m a t t e r a s h is d e c is io n a s th e e n d o f t h e m a tt e r. A m I r i g h t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: yes.
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

E v e n – e v e n w i t h th e r e f e r r a l o f

t h e I G s a y i n g t h a t th e m a n d a t e f a l ls w i th in t h e S A P S a n d t h e N PA m u s t
p r o s e c u t e t h e m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e fir s t h e s a y s t h e m a t t e r f a l ls w i t h i n th e

m a n d a t e o f t h e I G o ffic e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

And it must be referred there.

They write back and

s a y n o , n o , n o , i t is w it h in S A P S a n d t h e n w h e n t h e y s a y t h a t w h ic h
s h o u l d t h e n o p e n t h e w a y f o r th e m a t te r t o b e p u r s u e d fu r t h e r h e w r i t e s
back and says:
20

“ I G y o u h a v e n o o v e r s i g h t p o w e r s o v e r o u r d e c is io n .
M y d e c is io n s t a n d s a n d t h e m a t t e r i s c l o s e d . ”
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

And then it…

S o i t i s q u i t e c l e a r y o u s a y f r o m t h i s l e t t e r th a t h e

Page 45 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d o e s n o t c o n t e m p l a te t h e m a t t e r b e i n g p u r s u e d f u r t h e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir y o u w i ll s e e

t h e y w i ll f o l lo w th e ir – a f t e r th is th e r e is t w o o th e r l e t te r s t h a t f o l l o w s
on this.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Which just reiterates what I have

ju s t s a id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t s a m e a tt i tu d e . J a o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:
10

A n d t h e n f o l l o w in g t h e m e m o r a n d u m

w h ic h w a s a u t h o r e d b y A d v o c a t e s B r e y t e n b a c h a n d A d v o c a t e F e r r e i r a
t h e r e w a s t h e r e q u e s t m a d e a t y o u r in s t a n c e t h r o u g h th e o ffic e o f
D r a m a t t o A d v o c a te J i b a t o w h i c h A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i r e s p o n d e d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Th a t is t h e

le t t e r t h a t I ju s t r e a d i n t o t h e r e c o r d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And at page – paragraph 160 on

p a g e 4 7 y o u t a l k s p e c i f ic a l ly t o a l e tt e r d a t e d 2 6 A p r il 2 0 1 2 , is t h a t
correct?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d a s fa r

a s I k n o w t h a t is th e l e t te r fr o m t h e I G I w h ic h w a s a t t a c h e d t o t h i s
20

le t t e r w h e n i t w a s f o r w a r d e d t o th e – t o A d v o c a t e J i b a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 1 9 6

p l e a s e ? Is th is t h e le t t e r th a t y o u r e f e r t o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir n o t h e r e s p o n s e t o th e

le t t e r t h a t I r e f e r r e d t o w a s t h e o n e – i t w a s t h e o n e o n p a g e 1 6 0 . I n
o th e r w o r d s th e r e s p o n s e – t h e le t t e r i n t e r m s o f – fr o m A d v o c a te – I

Page 46 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
m e a n fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o A d v o c a te J i b a f o ll o w s o n th e l e t t e r o f t h e
IGI.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s w h ic h y o u h a v e a d d r e s s e d

a lr e a d y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o t h a t is t h a t l e t te r.

Correct.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

W h ic h I h a v e j u s t a d d r e s s e d n o w.

T h e n t h e a n s w e r t o t h a t le t t e r

f o ll o w s o n p a g e 1 6 2 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y le t u s j u s t …

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e o n e a t 1 6 2 i s o n e t h a t w e h a v e j u s t lo o k e d a t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s . W e h a v e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s c o n ti n u e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th e n i f I m a y p a g e 1 8 9 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

General Dramat now again refers

t h e d e c is io n b a c k o r a s k s t h e – t h e – A d v o c a t e J ib a t o r e v i e w A d v o c a t e
M r w e b i ’s d e c i s i o n b a s e d o n t h e l e t te r t h a t I j u s t d e a l t w i t h .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o r r e c t w h ic h y o u h a v e a l s o

a d d r e s s e d a lr e a d y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t . A n d th e n b a s e d

o n t h is – o n t h is le t t e r t h a t I h a v e ju s t l o o k e d a t n o w w e g o t o t h e p a g e
t h a t y o u h a v e m e n t i o n e d e a r li e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o r r e c t w h ic h i s p a g e 1 9 6 .

Page 47 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Th is i s n o w

t h e r e s p o n s e o n t h e s e c o n d l e t te r o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Are we on the same page now?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
that

was

authored

by

196 yes.
O k a y.

Advocate

A n d th is i s t h e n t h e l e t t e r

Mrwebi

addressed

to

Advocate

B r e y t e n b a c h , A d v o c a te F e r r e i r a , A d v o c a te M z i n y a t h i .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Th a t is …

D a t e d 2 6 A p r i l 2 0 1 2 ,i s t h a t r i g h t ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e – o r

r a th e r w h a t i s t h e e s s e n c e o f t h is l e t te r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h e e s s e n c e o f t h i s le t t e r is

t h a t i t i s n o w t h e A G t h a t i s s u p p o s e d t o lo o k a t – t h a t h a s t h e m a n d a te
t o i n v e s t ig a t e t h e s e m a t te r s a n d i f I m a y r e a d i n to th e r e c o r d p a r a g r a p h
– the second paragraph on page 198?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Correct. Can you read the second

p a r a g r a p h a n d a l s o t h e fi r s t t w o s e n t e n c e s o f t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

“ I t is a k n o w n f a c t t h a t t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l e x a m in e d
the

i n fo r m a ti o n

c o n t a in in g

the

alleged

criminal

tr a n s a c ti o n s b y M d l u l i a n d B a r n a r d a n d b a s e d o n
r u l e s g o v e r n in g t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t f o u n d
nothing

untoward

with

th e

tr a n s a c t i o n .

The

n e c e s s a r y r e p o r t i n t h is r e g a r d w a s g iv e n t o t h e j o i n t

Page 48 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
s t a n d in g c o m m i t t e e o n i n te ll i g e n c e a n d a s s u c h t o
P a r li a m e n t . Ar e t h e p o l ic e a n d t h e p r o s e c u t o r s n o w
q u e s t io n in g t h e i n te g r it y o f t h e s e i n s ti t u ti o n s ?

I do

n o t th in k w e h a v e th e a u th o r i ty a n d i n a n y e v e n t w e
w a n t t o g o – e v e n i f w e w a n t t o g o t h a t r o u te w e
h a v e to d o i t i n a l e g a l a n d p r o p e r m a n n e r. It i s m y
c o n s i d e r e d v i e w t h a t i t w il l t h e r e fo r e n o t b e i n t h e
in t e r e s t o f ju s t ic e fo r t h e [ i n d is ti n c t ] to b e f u r th e r
in v o lv e d in t h i s m a t t e r. ”
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o o n c e t h e is s u e s r e l a t i n g t o

t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e I G I w e r e d is p o s i t iv e t h r o u g h t h e l e tt e r o f t h e 1 9 t h
M a r c h 2 0 1 2 t h r o u g h t h is le t t e r a n o t h e r i s s u e w a s r a is e d a n d t h a t w a s i n
r e l a ti o n t o t h e A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l ’s o ffic e , is th a t r i g h t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
a c t u a ll y I m a d e a m is t a k e .

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

And I –

T h is w a s a n i n t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m w i t h i n

t h e N PA .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B e t w e e n A d v o c a t e Br e y t e n b a c h ,

F e r r e ir a , M z i n y a th i a n d A d v o c a t e M r w e b i .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

C o r r e c t . D i d y o u t a k e a n y s te p s i n

o r d e r t o g e t c la r i ty fr o m th e o ffic e o f t h e A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l o f S o u t h
A fr ic a i n r e l a ti o n t o th e s e a s s e r ti o n s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e g o i n g to c o n f u s e h i m n o w. Yo u t a lk in g a b o u t
the Attorney General. We do not have an Attorney General.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

The Auditor General.

Page 49 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

W e d o n o t h a v e a n A t t o r n e y G e n e r a l in S o u t h A fr ic a

anymore.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o r r y. M y m is ta k e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

The Auditor General.

H u m b le

a p o lo g i e s . A t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 0 . 1 o n p a g e 4 7 y o u t a l k t o s p e c i f ic s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

160.1.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S t e p s th a t y o u t o o k o r r a t h e r m y

q u e s t io n t o y o u i s d i d y o u ta k e a n y s te p s t o g e t c l a r i ty o n t h e A G S A
10

point?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e a r e o n p a g e 4 7 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Can you just repeat the page?

O h 4 7 o f th e a ffi d a v i t .

Paragraph 160.1.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir I d id . I h a d a m e e t in g

w i t h Ms A li c e M i ll e r fr o m th e I G I .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h a t r e fe r e n c e t o A G S A m u s t b e w r o n g b e c a u s e

t h a t w o u l d b e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l o f S o u t h A f r ic a is i t n o t ? H e m u s t h a v e
meant IGI or not?
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t is t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l o f S o u t h

A fr ic a C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did he mean the Auditor General he did not…
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s .

Page 50 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e t c o n fu s e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o , n o I d i d n o t g e t c o n fu s e d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a l r i g h t . O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir …

B u t w h e r e w o u ld t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l g e t i n i n t e r m s

o f c r i m i n a l i n v e s t i g a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir th e A u d i to r G e n e r a l d o e s

a u d it s a n d t h e y w o u ld p o i n t o u t i n e ffic i e n c i e s , m a l a d m in is tr a ti o n o r
ir r e g u l a r i ti e s a n d t h e n t h e y w o u l d r e f e r i t t o th e D e p a r t m e n t f o r t h e
10

d e c is i o n a s t o w h a t t o d o w i t h i t a n d t o ta k e f u r t h e r a c ti o n . W h e t h e r i t
is f o r c r i m i n a l a c ti o n o r d i s c i p li n a r y a c t i o n t h a t i s w h a t th e – t h a t is t h e
function of …
CHAIRPERSON:

J a n o t t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d b u t w a s i t n o t – is t h e

p o s i ti o n n o t t h a t y o u w e r e a l l d e a l in g w i t h a t t h i s s ta g e w a s t h e
d e c is i o n b y A d v o c a te M r w e b i t o w i t h d r a w t h e c h a r g e s …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is …

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d h is – w h a t a p p e a r s lik e a r e f u s a l t o c h a n g e
t h a t d e c i s i o n w h ic h w a s c r i m in a l p r o s e c u ti o n .

Now at one stage he

s a i d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s h o u ld b e d o n e b y t h e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l’s o ff ic e .
20

N o w t h a t p a r t I u n d e r s t a n d b u t I a m – I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d t h e r e fe r e n c e
t o t h e o ffi c e o f t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l e x c e p t if i t i s f o r p u r p o s e s o f s i m p l y
o b t a i n in g

c e r ta in

reports

or

g e t ti n g

somebody

fr o m

th e A u d it o r

G e n e r a l’s o ffic e w h o w o u ld d e p o s e t o a c e r ta i n a ffi d a v i t a b o u t m a tt e r s
t h a t a r e c o v e r e d b y t h e A G ’s o ffic e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir m a y b e I m u s t g e t – g iv e a

Page 51 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
li t tl e b i t o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Of background in terms of this.

W h a t h a d h a p p e n e d is t h e f o ll o w i n g . Th e a v e n u e th a t A d v o c a te M r w e b i
tr i e d t o t a k e i n t e r m s o f t h e I G I w a s b l o c k e d s o h e d i d n o t h a v e th a t
avenue anymore.

A n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d is a c c o r d i n g t o h i m a n d I

a m r e fe r r i n g t o h is o w n t e s t i m o n y n o w.

H e h a d m e e ti n g s fr o m h i g h

le v e l p o l ic e in d iv i d u a ls w h o c a m e t o s p e a k t o h i m a n d e x p l a i n t o h i m
e x a c tl y h o w t h e C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e w o r k s a n d w h y t h e m a n d a t e o f th is
10

in v e s t i g a t io n d o e s n o t f a l l w i t h i n S A P S .

And based on that he now

w r i t e s a n in t e r n a l m e m o r a n d u m a n d – t o A d v o c a te B r e y t e n b a c h ,
M z i n y a t h i t o e x p l a i n t o t h e m t h a t t h i s m a t t e r t h a t w e a r e i n v e s t ig a ti n g
t h e M d lu li / B a r n a r d m a t t e r h a s a lr e a d y b e e n i n v e s t i g a t e d a n d h e g o e s
f u r th e r h e s a y s a n d I a m q u o t in g fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 6 0 . H e s a y s :
“ I t is a k n o w n f a c t t h a t t h e A u d i to r G e n e r a l e x a m in e d
t h e in f o r m a t io n c o n ta i n e d – c o n t a i n in g t h e a ll e g e d
c r i m i n a l tr a n s a c ti o n b y G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d C o l o n e l
Barnard.”
T h i s i s n o w th e v e h ic l e t r a n s a c t io n a n d t h e v e h i c l e t h a t w a s – w h a t is
20

t h e w o r d I a m l o o k in g fo r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s t r a d e d in .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e t r a d e d i n v e h ic l e th a t is

c o r r e c t C h a ir.
“ T h e c r i m i n a l tr a n s a c ti o n b y G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d
C o l o n e l B a r n a r d a n d b a s e d o n t h e r u le s g o v e r n in g

Page 52 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t f o u n d n o t h i n g u n to w a r d
w i t h t h e tr a n s a c t io n . ”
H e g o e s f u r t h e r t o s t a te :
“ T h a t t h e n e c e s s a r y r e p o r t i n t h i s r e g a r d w a s g iv e n
t o th e J o i n t S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e in In t e l li g e n c e a n d
a s s u c h to P a r li a m e n t . ”
T h a t is w h a t h e s ta t e s a s a f a c t i n th i s m e m o r a n d u m t o A d v o c a t e
F e r r e ir a , Br e y t e n b a c h a n d M z i n y a ti .

B a s e d o n t h a t I h a d a m e e ti n g

w i t h M s A li c e M i l le r w h o is c o r p o r a te e x e c u tiv e a n d o t h e r s f r o m t h e
10

o ffic e

of

the

AG

and

I

e n q u ir e d

about

th is

s t a te m e n t

–

this

memorandum that Advocate Mrwebi wrote. I gave them a copy and I
g a v e t h e m a c c e s s t o t h e m e m o r a n d u m a n d I a s k e d t h e m w h e t h e r is t h i s
a c t u a ll y d i d t h is h a p p e n ? W h ic h i s i m p o r t a n t t o m e i f i t h a p p e n e d a n d
t h e y s a id t h e r e w a s n o th in g w r o n g t h e n o b v io u s ly th a t – t h a t i s t h e e n d
o f i t . A n d th e y d e n i e d th a t s u c h a r e p o r t w a s e v e r t a b l e d a t P a r li a m e n t
a n d th a t a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s e v e r d o n e b y t h e m i n r e s p e c t o f th is
s p e c i f ic tr a n s a c ti o n .

S o t o m e t h a t w a s c l e a r th a t t h a t w a s t h e

m e m o r a n d u m i n te r ms o f A d v o c a te M r w e b i w h e r e h e s t a t e s a s a f a c t – a
k n o w n f a c t t h a t t h a t w a s n o t tr u e ; t h a t w a s u n tr u e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u g o t t o k n o w t h a t s i tu a ti o n a t t h e ti m e ?

In

o th e r w o r d s a t t h e ti m e w h e n t h e s e t h i n g s w e r e h a p p e n i n g y o u c a r r i e d
o u t th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n t o fi n d o u t a n d th e n y o u w e r e t o ld th e r e w a s n o
s u c h m e m o r a n d u m a n d t h e r e w a s n o s u c h i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. S o b a s e d

o n t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t A d v o c a te M r w e b i w r o t e .

Page 53 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I w e n t t o th e A u d i to r G e n e r a l a n d

I asked him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

D id t h is in f a c t h a p p e n ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

And they said it did not happen

lik e th a t . Th e y n e v e r i n v e s ti g a te d th a t s p e c i fic is s u e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

D i d y o u th e n e i th e r y o u r s e l f o r th r o u g h G e n e r a l

D r a m a t g o b a c k t o t h e N PA t o s a y th is i s n o t c o r r e c t.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I – w e a r e j u m p i n g a l it t le

b i t b u t I t h in k t h e r e is a …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th e r e is a l e t te r a f te r t h a t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll g e t to i t.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A g a i n – ja b y G e n e r a l D r a m a t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

R e fe r r i n g t h e m a t t e r b a c k .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s – le t u s fo ll o w t h e r i g h t s e q u e n c e .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:
ju s t c lo s e o ff t h i s p o i n t C h a ir.

B e i n g v e r y a l e r t t o t h e ti m e i f I c a n
C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n to p a g e 1 9 4

please?
CHAIRPERSON: I see we have gone past the…
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

P a s t te a b r e a k .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Te a b r e a k b u t m a y b e l e t u s t a k e t h e te a b r e a k a t h a l f

Page 54 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
p a s t – l e t u s j u s t fi n i s h w h a t y o u h a v e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I [ in d is t in c t ] C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 19?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

1 9 4 . Is t h is t h e l e t t e r fr o m t h e A G –

A u d i t o r G e n e r a l o f S o u t h A fr ic a ’s o ff ic e t h a t a s s e r t e d c la r i ty t o th e
q u e r y t h a t y o u r a i s e d to t h e m ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

That is correct Chair and if I

may?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

P le a s e .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
“ T h e p u r p o s e o f t h i s c o m m u n ic a ti o n is t o in f o r m y o u
that

the

Auditor

General

of

South

A fr ic a

not

[i n d is t in c t] d i d n o t e x a m in e th e a ll e g e d c r i m i n a l
tr a n s a c ti o n n o r r e a c h th e r e l e v a n t c o n c l u s io n a s s e t
o u t i n y o u r le t t e r d a t e d t o u s t h e 11 t h J u l y 2 0 1 2 .
Yo u r s s i n c e r e l y A li c e M i ll e r C o r p o r a te E x e c u ti v e . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
y o u r a ffi d a v it .

A n d t h e n i f w e tu r n t o p a g e 4 8 o f

H a v i n g a lr e a d y a d d r e s s e d t h e r e s p o n s e b y M s J a c k i e

L a p in k a i s i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a m i n i s t e r ia l t a s k te a m t h a t w a s s e t
20

u p t o i n v e s ti g a te a l l e g a ti o n s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d lu li ?
CHAIRPERSON:
t h is .

I a m s o r r y.

J u s t b e f o r e t h a t le t u s – l e t u s ju s t ti e

Yo u – y o u s a i d t h a t y o u u n d e r s t a n d th a t c e r t a i n h ig h r a n k in g

o ffic i a ls o f t h e p o l ic e s e r v ic e h a d a m e e ti n g w i th A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i
w h e r e t h e y e x p la i n e d t o h i m h o w c e r t a i n t h i n g s a t I n te ll ig e n c e w o r k – I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t y o u s a i d . D o y o u w a n t to r e p e a t t h a t a n d t h e n

Page 55 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
c o n fir m w h e th e r th a t i s t r u e a n d w h o th o s e a r e i f y o u k n o w ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I w a s in f o r m e d a n d t h i s is

w h e r e i t g e ts a li t tl e b i t c o n f u s in g t o m e . I w a s i n f o r m e d t h a t A d v o c a t e
– t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d C o l o n e l B a r n a r d w e n t t o s e e A d v o c a te
Mrwebi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h e y e x p la i n e d t o h i m t h i s i s

what happened.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I – w e l l I a m u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s io n

t h e r e is m o r e t h a n th is – th o s e t w o – t h e r e w e r e o th e r i n d iv i d u a l s a s
w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A t t h e h e a r in g a n d I w a n t t o ta k e

t h is a l i t tl e b i t f u r t h e r. A d v o c a t e – a t th e M o k g o r o h e a r i n g . H e t o o k i t
f u r th e r – I m e a n h e t h e n – h e d id n o t in h is m e m o r a n d u m a d d r e s s th e
n a m e s . I g o t to t h r o u g h m y i n f o r m a ti o n I g o t t o k n o w w h o i t w a s a n d
t h e n h e a t th e h e a r in g i ts e l f h e s a id th a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t g a v e h i m t h a t
f e e d b a c k r e g a r d i n g th e A u d i to r G e n e r a l .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d th a t h e s a i d to h i m t h a t th e

m a t t e r w a s in v e s ti g a t e d a n d f in a lis e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

G e n e r a l D r a m a t h a s s u b s e q u e n tl y

t e s ti fi e d a t t h e M o k g o r o I n q u ir y t h a t t h a t d id n o t h a p p e n . H e n e v e r h a d

Page 56 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h a t in f o r m a ti o n .

H e w o u l d n e v e r h a v e g iv e n th a t t o – t o A d v o c a te

Mrwebi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . H m . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Yo u w e r e a b o u t to i n f o r m t h e C h a ir

a b o u t y o u r k n o w l e d g e o n t h e mi n is te r i a l t a s k t e a m t h a t w a s a p p o i n t e d
t o i n v e s ti g a t e a l le g a ti o n s – G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s a l le g a ti o n s .

Can you

please do so?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w m u c h a b o u t

t h e – I k n o w th e t a s k t e a m w a s c o n s ti t u t e d b y M i n i s te r M t h e th w a o n t h e
10

11 t h M a y 2 0 1 2 a n d th e C h i e f L a w C h i e f S t a te L a w A d v i s o r M r E n v e r
D a n ie ls w a s t o i n v e s ti g a t e t h e c l a i m s b y G e n e r a l M d lu li t h a t t h e r e w a s
a s o c a l le d p l o t a g a in s t h i m .

T h e o n ly f e e d b a c k I e v e r r e c e iv e d i n

r e s p e c t o f t h i s t a s k te a m w a s t h e m e d ia r e l e a s e b y S A P S o n t h e 5 t h
J u l y 2 0 1 2 s ta t e d t h a t th e r e is n o s u b s t a n c e t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s c l a i m s
o f c o n s p ir a c y.

Th e t a s k t e a m a p a r t fr o m c l e a r i n g th e a l le g e d

c o n s p ir a t o r s a l s o f o u n d t h a t t h e s o u r c e w h o g a v e G e n e r a l M d l u li ’s
in f o r m a ti o n c o u l d n o t b e c o r r o b o r a t e d – c o u l d n o t c o r r o b o r a t e it . Th e
s o c a l l e d s o u r c e i s F M 0 9 s t a ti o n e d a t C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e a n d is a c l o s e
c o n fi d a n t a n d fr i e n d o r c o n fi d a n t o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d G e n e r a l
20

M d lu li .

M y o p i n io n o f t h is is I a m o f t h e o p i n io n th a t th is p l o t w a s

f a b r ic a te d t o u s e a s p a r t o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s r e p r e s e n ta t io n s m a d e t o
Advocate Mrwebi and to the SAPS.

I d i d n o t h a v e s i g h t o f t h is t a s k

team report.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o – b u t th is p a r t ic u l a r m i n is t e r ia l

t a s k t e a m f o c u s s e d o n t h e c o n s – t h e a l le g e d c o n s p ir a c y t h e o r y o f

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G e n e r a l M d l u l i , is t h a t r ig h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r a n d I a m – i f

I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y t h e f o c u s o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s G e n e r a l
D r a m a t , G e n e r a l L e b e y a , G e n e r a l P e tr o s . I t h i n k th e r e w e r e o n e o r t w o
o th e r s a s w e l l w h i c h I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r o ff h a n d n o w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

H a v i n g g iv e n e v i d e n c e …

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h o w a s G e n e r a l P e tr o s
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

G e n e r a l P e tr o s w a s t h e P r o v i n c ia l

Commissioner of Gauteng at the time.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d w h e n y o u s a y t h e f o c u s o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n
was on those three were – you mean were they the people who were
s u s p e c t e d o f h a v in g – o f c o n s p ir in g a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d lu li ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir t h e y w e r e

a c c o r d i n g t o G e n e r a l M d l u li t h e y w e r e m a s t e r m in d in g t h i s p l o t. Yo u w il l
r e m e m b e r th a t w h e n I m e n t io n e d G e n e r a l P e tr o s ’

n a m e w a s w i th t h e

fir s t m e e ti n g o n t h e 2 0 – I th i n k i t w a s t h e 2 1 s t o r t h e 2 3 r d M a r c h 2 0 11
in C a p e To w n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s s o m e in t e r f e r e n c e w i t h th e

r e c o r d i n g b u t I t h i n k i t h a s s t o p p e d . S o – s o – y e s – s o th a t – t h o s e
20

w e r e t h e p e o p le w h o w e r e s u s p e c t e d o f c o n s p ir i n g a g a in s t h i m ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

A s I s a i d th e r e m i g h t b e m o r e b u t

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r o ff h a n d t h e o t h e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 58 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

t h e o t h e r in d iv i d u a ls ’ n a m e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w w h o w e r e o th e r s o f t h e ta s k t e a m o t h e r
t h a n Mr E n v e r D a n i e l s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir I d o n o t – I d o n o t k n o w

who he was.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

No.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h i s p a r ti c u la r t a s k t e a m
w a s a n n o u n c e d p u b li c ly b y t h e t h e n M i n is t e r o f P o lic e ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a s fa r a s I k n o w i t w a s

a n n o u n c e d p u b lic ly h e n c e I t h i n k t h a t is w h y t h e r e w a s a m e d i a r e l e a s e
a ft e r t h e h e a r i n g s b u t th e r e w a s n o r e p o r t t h a t w a s r e l e a s e d a s fa r a s I
k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w y o u s a i d t h a t t h e – y o u r e f e r r e d to a

c o n c l u s i o n t h a t t h e r e w a s n o b a s is fo r t h a t a l l e g a ti o n o f c o n s p ir a c y.
W h a t w e r e y o u r e fe r r i n g t o i n te r ms o f t h a t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o th e c o n s p ir a c y

a g a in s t G e n e r a l M d l u li b y th e s e th r e e o ff ic e r s a n d o th e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s b u t w h a t I m e a n i s w h o h a d r e a c h e d t h a t

conclusion?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It w a s – i t w a s M r E n v e r D a n ie ls

fr o m t h e – fr o m t h a t t a s k t e a m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh how did you get to know that because I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u s a i d t h a t t h e – t h e – th e ir r e p o r t w a s n o t m a d e p u b lic ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r I a m r e fe r r i n g t o p a r a g r a p h

Page 59 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
1 6 2 . 1 t h e r e w a s a m e d i a r e l e a s e o n t h e 5 t h J u ly 2 0 1 2 b y S A P S m e d i a
c e n tr e s ta t in g t h e r e i s n o s u b s t a n c e to t h e G e n e r a l M d l u li ’s c l a i m s o f
c o n s p ir a c y. T h e ta s k t e a m a p a r t fr o m c le a n i n g t h e a ll e g e d c o n s p ir a to r s
a ls o f o u n d t h a t t h e s o u r c e w h o g a v e G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s i n f o r m a t i o n c o u l d
not corroborate it.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h th e r e p o r t w a s n o t m a d e p u b l ic b u t t h e r e w a s a

m e d i a s t a te m e n t i s s u e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

W h ic h t o l d t h e p u b l ic w h a t th e o u tc o m e o f t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n b y t h a t t a s k t e a m w a s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is – t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir I s e e t h e c l o c k h a s tic k e d j u s t

past half past.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is th is a c o n v e n i e n t t i m e ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w ill ta k e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t . I t is n o w h a l f p a s t
w e w ill r e s u m e a t q u a r te r t o tw e lv e . W e a d j o u r n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A s it p l e a s e s .

R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s p r o c e e d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. W e a r e o n p a g e 4 8
o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t i n p a r t ic u l a r w e h a v e j u s t c o m p l e te d p a r a g r a p h 1 6 2 .

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M u c h o f w h a t y o u s a y h e r e a f t e r y o u h a v e a lr e a d y te s ti fi e d t o . S o j u s t
f o r t h e r e c o r d in t e r m s o f ti m e a n d c o n t e x t i s i t c o r r e c t th a t o n
7 June 2012

General Dramat

a p p e a le d

a g a in

to

A d v o c a te J i b a

to

u r g e n tl y r e v i e w t h e d e c is i o n o f A d v o c a te M r w e b i ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m e m b e r w e d id c o v e r t h a t …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e f o l lo w in g p a r a g r a p h .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i t i s th e r e fo r e a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t

on the 2nd …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o d o n o t r e p e a t i t . W e d i d c o v e r i t . C o n ti n u e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e m e m b e r w e c o v e r e d t h a t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

As i t p l e a s e s C h a ir.

After then

r e c e i v i n g i n fo r m a t i o n fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t o n t h e m e e t i n g t h a t w a s h a d
t h a t a l l m a t t e r s w e r e s u ffic ie n tl y r e s o lv e d .

D id y o u ta k e a n y s t e p s t o

p r o g r e s s t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o r r a t h e r t h e c r i m i n a l m a t te r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I w r o te to

A d v o c a t e Fe r r e ir a fr o m th e S e r i o u s C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e U n i t t o in f o r m
h i m o f t h e m e e ti n g b e t w e e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d A d v o c a t e J i b a t h a t
20

t o o k p la c e o n 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 2 a n d to s e e k c l a r i t y o n t h e c u r r e n t p o s i t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 2 - 0 - 7

please?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a y y o u w e n t t o h i m t o b r ie f h i m o n
t h e m e e ti n g b e tw e e n G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d M s J i b a a n d t o s e e k - I th i n k
y o u s a i d a n d t o s e e k s o m e th i n g . I d id n o t h e a r w h a t y o u s a i d .

Page 61 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
s i tu a ti o n .

To s e e k c l a r i fy o n t h e c u r r e n t

P r a c t ic a l is s u e s t h a t n e e d s t o b e - th a t n e e d s t o b e d e a l t

with …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y a n d w h a t d i d h e s a y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

O r i s s h e r e f e r r in g y o u t o s o m e th in g th a t w ill h e l p

you?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I - I t h i n k s o . I t h i n k s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . G o - g o a h e a d .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
t h is

is

a

l e t te r

th a t

was

O n p a g e 2 - 0 - 7 a p p e a r s a l e t te r a n d

a u th o r e d

by

yourself

addressed

to

A d v o c a t e J Fe r r e ir a d a t e d 1 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 2 . Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t is t h e b a s i s o f th is l e t te r ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second please.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y C h a ir. P a g e 2 - 0 - 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e w a y t o d e a l w i t h th is i s f ir s t f o r - fo r h i m t o t e l l u s
w h a t t r a n s p ir e d a t th e m e e ti n g b e t w e e n h i m a n d M r F e r r e ir a .

If what

tr a n s p ir e d a t t h a t m e e t i n g w a s s u b s e q u e n tly r e c o r d e d i n a l e tt e r th e n
20

y o u - y o u c a n g e t t o t h a t b u t le t u s fi n i s h w i t h w h a t tr a n s p ir e d a t t h a t
m e e ti n g w h i c h m i g h t b e w h a t y o u d e a l w i th i n a l e tt e r t h e n b u t t h e n y o u
c a n s a y t h a t w a s s u b s e q u e n tly r e c o r d e d in a l e tt e r d a t e d b la h , b l a h ,
blah.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I - I m i g h t h a v e m a d e a - I

d i d n o t h a v e a m e e t in g . I w r o t e a l e t te r.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y o u w r o t e a le t t e r ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I w r o t e a le t t e r t o A d v o c a te …
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , I th o u g h t - I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d y o u w e n t to h i m .

S o I m u s t h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d y o u th e n .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o r r y C h a ir.

I p r o b a b ly w e n t t o

h i m a f t e r w a r d s b u t in t e r m s o f t h is I w r o t e h i m a le t t e r t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

To t e ll h i m w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e

m e e ti n g w i th t h e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th e n - th e n w e d e a l w i t h th e l e t te r.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O k a y C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t i s t h e c r u x o f th is l e tt e r

M r R o e l o fs e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B a s i c a l ly C h a ir a ll t h a t I d i d in

t e r m s o f t h i s l e t te r I i n f o r m e d h i m a b o u t a m e e ti n g w i t h - w i t h - b e tw e e n
Advocate Dramat

and

A d v o c a te

-

sorry

General Dramat

and

A d v o c a t e J i b a a n d I r e c o r d e d t h e v i e w o f A d v o c a t e J i b a a s r e la y e d t o
me by General Dramat. That the - (clearing throat) excuse me - and I
w i ll r e a d fr o m t h e le t t e r. P a r a g r a p h 2 .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

“ A d v o c a te J i b a is o f t h e

v ie w t h a t t h e m a t t e r a g a in s t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d
C o l o n e l B a r n a r d a c c u s e d i n t h e m a t te r w a s o n ly
p r o v i s i o n a lly w i t h d r a w n o n 1 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 d u e
t o t h e f a c t t h a t s o m e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s h a d n o t b e e n

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
fi n a l is e d .

I w a s f u r th e r i n fo r m e d t h a t I h a d t o

p r o v i d e t h e c a s e d o c k e t t o t h e r e l e v a n t p r o s e c u to r
with

the

view

of

fi n a l is i n g

the

i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

T h e r e a f te r th e m a t t e r m u s t b e p la c e d b a c k o n t h e
c o u r t r o ll . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

The next paragraph could you read

t h a t i n t o t h e r e c o r d a s w e ll p l e a s e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e - i s t h e … ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: On the same page.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h in t h e s ta t e m e n t n o w o r in t h e
le t t e r ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n - s ti ll o n p a g e 2 - 0 - 7 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 - 0 - 7 . Ye s c o n ti n u e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

“ I w a s f u r th e r i n f o r m e d

t h a t I h a d t o p r o v i d e th e c a s e d o c k e t to th e r e le v a n t
prosecutor

w it h

the

view

of

fi n a l i s in g

the

in v e s t i g a t io n . T h e r e a f te r t h e m a t t e r m u s t b e p l a c e d
b a c k o n t h e c o u r t r o l l. ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you and was …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u m a k e h i m r e a d t h a t a s e c o n d ti m e ? I th o u g h t
he did read that before.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: I may …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr R o e l o f s e a m I r ig h t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I a m n o t g e t ti n g i n v o l v e d i n
…

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A p o l o g i e s to t h a t C h a ir. I th o u g h t h e
ju s t r e a d th e fir s t p a r a g r a p h .

H u m b le a p o l o g i e s .

W h a t - w h a t - is it

c o r r e c t th e n t h a t th e m a t t e r p r o c e e d e d a c c o r d i n g l y a n d t h e m a t t e r w a s
in f a c t p l a c e d o n t h e c o u r t r o ll a n d t h i s i s t h e v e r y i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t
y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g iv e n e v id e n c e a b o u t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h e m a t te r w a s n o t p l a c e d

b a c k o n t h e c o u r t r o ll s o o n a f te r t h i s l e tt e r.

I t w a s o n ly p l a c e d b a c k

a ft e r th e FU L a p p li c a t io n o n t h e c o u r t r o ll w h e r e t h e d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n
n o t t h a t t h e - t h a t th e p r e v i o u s d e c is i o n w a s - w a s w r o n g . S o w h a t h a d
10

happened …
CHAIRPERSON: Was set aside?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s w a s s e t a s i d e . T h a t is c o r r e c t
C h a ir. S o w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d h e r e i s p r o s e c u to r s w e r e a l lo c a t e d a n d
w e - w e to o k it fr o m th e r e b u t t h e m a t t e r w a s n o t p l a c e d b a c k o n t h e
court roll.

B y t h i s ti m e - a n d I t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t t o p u t t h is in t o

c o n te x t n o w - b y t h i s t i m e t h e in f o r m a t i o n t h a t w a s g iv e n to m e b y
C o l o n e l N a i d o o h a s b e e n a d d e d to t h is in v e s ti g a ti o n .
S o i n t e r m s o f t h a t t h e r e w e r e s ti ll i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t w e r e
o u t s t a n d i n g t h a t w e h a d t o f in a lis e .
20

d e a lt w it h .

S o th e i n i t ia l i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s

T h e o n e w i th B a r n a r d a n d th e - a n d t h e v e h ic l e a n d

G e n e r a l M d l u l i b u t i n te r ms o f - i n li g h t o f t h e a d d i t io n a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n s
w e a d d e d i t to t h i s i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t o c o m p le t e - a n d t o c o m p l e te i t a s
a w h o l e i n - to p l a c e i t b a c k o n t h e c o u r t r o l l.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o ju s t f o r th e r e c o r d C h a ir t h e

High

down

Court

ju d g m e n t

handed

by

Page 65 of 233

J u s tic e M u r p h y

is

d a te d

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
2 3 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 3 w h ic h w a s e v e n t u a lly t a k e n o n a p p e a l a n d t h a t
ju d g m e n t th r o u g h J u s t ic e Br a n d w h o w a s A c t in g a t th e ti m e w a s h a n d e d
d o w n o n 1 7 A p r il 2 0 1 4 a n d i t w a s th e n p u r s u a n t t o th e S u p r e m e C o u r t
o f A p p e a l d e c is io n th a t fu r t h e r s t e p s w e r e t a k e n . Is th a t r i g h t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o w h o w e x a c t ly w o u l d y o u d e s c r ib e
your …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. A r e t h o s e j u d g m e n ts h e r e ? Te l l - t e l l m e
w h e r e th e y a r e .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S u r e C h a ir.

T h e y a r e i n b u n d le o r

r a th e r E X H I B I T 2 . 4 - K K 2 . 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e f ir s t …
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

J u d g m e n t w h ic h is t h e H ig h C o u r t

ju d g m e n t i s u n d e r Ta b 8 w h i c h s t a r ts a t p a g e 2 - 8 - 2 a n d C h a ir w i th
r e fe r e n c e t o th e - t h e h a n d - t h e t y p e d n o t e th a t I p a s s e d u p e a r l ie r t h is
m o r n in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

The

relevant

paragraphs

are

m e n ti o n e d in t h e r e a s i t p e r ta i n s to t h is p a r ti c u la r i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d i n
p a r t ic u l a r t h e d e c i s i o n t o w i t h d r a w t h e s e c h a r g e s b y A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i .
The SCA judgment …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u s e e w h a t I w a n te d y o u t o d o - I m e a n I - I
w i ll r e a d t h e - e a c h o n e o f t h e ju d g m e n t s . I w i ll - t h o s e th a t I m ig h t n o t

Page 66 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
h a v e r e c e n tl y - I w il l r e a d t h e m a s a w h o l e . W h a t I w a s s a y in g e a r l ie r
o n w a s a t th e h e a r in g if c e r t a in is s u e s a r e a lr e a d y c o v e r e d b y a
ju d g m e n t th a t is n o t b e i n g a p p e a le d t h a t i s th e f in a l j u d g m e n t i n r e g a r d
t o a p a r t ic u l a r m a t t e r.
Yo u c a n j u s t a n n o u n c e th o s e fi n d i n g s th a t a r e i m p o r t a n t o r
r e l e v a n t f o r o u r p u r p o s e s . T h a t t h e s e w e r e th e fi n d i n g s . T h e s e w e r e
t h e - t h i s w a s t h e o r d e r t h a t w a s m a d e a n d t h e n t h e w i tn e s s c a n g iv e
e v i d e n c e o n l y f o r p u r p o s e s o f c o n te x t o r w h e r e th e r e w e r e g a p s t h a t
w e r e n o t d e a lt w i t h i n - i n t h e j u d g m e n t .
10

S o - b u t y o u - y o u ju s t s a y

t h e r e w a s t h is j u d g m e n t .
I t is n o t b e i n g a p p e a l e d a g a i n s t o r i t i s n o t - n o a p p e a l is
p e n d i n g a n d t h i s w a s t h e is s u e . T h i s i s w h a t w a s f o u n d . Th e n w e c a n
move on.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W o u l d y o u lik e m e t o w o u l d y o u lik e

m e t o a d d r e s s th is n o w o r … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t y o u - y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Can I - should I do this after the long
20

adjournment?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u m ig h t n o t h a v e p r e p a r e d t o d o - t o d o t h a t .
W e - w e c a n d o t h a t l a te r o r i f y o u w a n t to d r a w h is a t te n ti o n t o
p a r t ic u l a r p a r t s o f th e j u d g m e n t y o u m a y d o s o b u t w h e r e t h e r e i s a - a
ju d g m e n t w h ic h h a s m a d e c e r ta i n fi n d i n g s w e d o n o t h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h
t h a t . Yo u c a n j u s t s a y t h e s e w e r e th e fi n d i n g s t h a t w e r e m a d e .

Page 67 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
T h e r e w a s n o fu r t h e r a p p e a l a n d t h e n t h e w i t n e s s w i ll s i m p ly
g iv e e v i d e n c e in t e r m s o f c o n t e x t i f t h e r e i s a n y t h in g o n c o n t e x t t h a t
n e e d s t o b e g iv e n o r fil l u p g a p s th a t m a y n o t h a v e b e e n d e a l t w i t h i n
t h e ju d g m e n t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b le m C h a ir. I a m h a p p y t o d o
so later …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And we can address it then.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n c lo s i n g t h i s p a r t ic u l a r p a r t o f y o u r
e v i d e n c e C o l o n e l - Mr R o e l o f s e h o w w o u l d y o u - h o w w o u ld y o u
d e s c r ib e y o u r e x p e r i e n c e a s t h e i n v e s t i g a t o r i n t h is m a tt e r o n th e
e n g a g e m e n ts

you

have

had

through

the

O ff ic e

of the

N a ti o n a l

P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I w il l - i t w a s s tr a n g e . I h a d
- I h a d - I w a s fo r t u n a t e e n o u g h t o b e p a r t o f t h e S c o r p i o n s - t h e D S O
b u t I c l o s e l y w o r k e d w i th p r o s e c u t o r s a n d I h a v e n e v e r e n c o u n t e r e d
s o m e t h i n g l ik e th is b e f o r e a n d t o m e th a t i s w h y I f e l t a t t h e ti m e w h e n
t h e d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n a n d t h e r e a s o n s t h a t w e r e a d v a n c e d f o r th is 20

f o r t h o s e d e c i s i o n s i t j u s t - ju s t d o e s n o t m a k e s e n s e a n d n o r m a l ly
w h e n y o u a p o l ic e m a n y o u d o n o t n e c e s s a r ily t a k e n o n t h e N PA
r e g a r d in g d e c is i o n s b u t t h is w a s s o c l e a r l y w r o n g f o r m e th a t I - t h a t I
had

to

ta k e

it on

and -

and

hence

the

reason

why

I asked

G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o a s k t h e m t o r e v i e w th e d e c is i o n b e c a u s e t h e - it j u s t
did not make sense to me.

Page 68 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s ir is i t t h e n y o u r e v id e n c e th a t
y o u e n c o u n te r e d r e s is t a n c e in p r o g r e s s in g t h i s p a r t ic u l a r c r i m in a l
in v e s t i g a t io n th r o u g h t h e - t h r o u g h t h e J u s ti c e S y s t e m ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r I th i n k I w o u l d g o f u r t h e r

t h a n t h a t. I t i s n o t j u s t r e s i s ta n c e . I t w a s - t h is w a s a - a d e li b e r a te
a tt e m p t n o t to c o n ti n u e w i t h th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d t h e - a n d I t h in k i t
w a s t h o u g h t t h a t i f a n d t h a t is n o r m a ll y w h a t h a p p e n s t h a t i f t h e N PA
s a y t o t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n P o lic e S e r v ic e th e m a tt e r is c l o s e d th e m a t te r
w i ll n o t b e d e a l t w i th - w o u l d n o t b e i n v e s ti g a t e d f u r t h e r.
10

A l th o u g h t h a t i s n o t n e c e s s a r il y th e c a s e . Yo u c a n - y o u c a n
a l w a y s i n v e s ti g a te th e m a t t e r fu r t h e r u n t i l y o u fi n d t h e e v i d e n c e th a t
w o u ld h a v e t h e N PA r e c o n s i d e r t h e d e c is i o n b u t i n t h is r e g a r d t o m e i t
w a s d e li b e r a te to s to p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d I b a s e th a t o n t h e l e t te r s
t h a t w a s w r i t te n a n d o u r r e q u e s t t h a t w e - t h a t w e m a d e a t t h e ti m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And then - then in your experience

w h o w a s t h is - w e r e t h e r e a n y k e y i n d iv i d u a ls w h o w a s t h e s o u r c e o f
t h o s e d e li b e r a te a tt e m p t s t o s t o p t h e in v e s ti g a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair as far as I am concerned

fr o m th e N PA s i d e I c a n s p e c u la t e i n t e r m s o f A d v o c a te J i b a . S o I d o
20

n o t k n o w w h e t h e r s h e a c tu a l ly s a w t h e d o c u m e n ts o r n o t. S o I r a th e r
n o t v e n t u r e in t o - i n - i n r e s p e c t o f h e r b u t i n t e r ms o f A d v o c a te M r w e b i
h e k n e w e x a c t ly w h a t h a p p e n e d .
He
c r i m i n a li ty.

was

b r i e fe d

by

p o li c e m e n

i n v o lv e d

in

the

a l le g e d

H e s h o u l d h a v e k n o w n t h a t i t i s n o t t h e w a y to d e a l w it h

t h a t m a t te r. H e d id n o t c o n s u l t w i th e i t h e r m y s e l f o r t h e p r o s e c u to r in

Page 69 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h e m a t t e r a n d - a n d t h e r e f o r e u n d e r t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s I f e l t t h a t t h i s
w a s d o n e d e l ib e r a te ly w i t h t h e v i e w o f s t o p p i n g t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
at the

I s i t c o r r e c t th a t y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e

M o k g o r o C o m m i s s i o n i n r e l a ti o n t o A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a n d

Advocate Jiba?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir f o r t h e r e c o r d t h e r e l e v a n t

p a r a g r a p h s t o t h a t p a r tic u la r r e p o r t d o e s a p p e a r a s A n n e x u r e 2 1 to h i s
a ffi d a v i t w h ic h s t a r ts a t t w o - 2 - 11 - p a g e 2 - 11 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : P a g e 2 - 11 ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

I t is n o t t h e e n tir e

u n a b r i d g e d r e p o r t b u t r e a l ly o n ly t h a t s e c ti o n s w h i c h r e l a t e s t o t h e
e v i d e n c e o f th is w i t n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h i s - t h e f u ll u n a b r i d g e d r e p o r t h a s
a lr e a d y b e e n p l a c e d b e f o r e t h i s C o m m i s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f w e c a n th e n t u r n t o p a g e 5 0 o f

y o u r a ff i d a v i t p l e a s e .
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir if - i f I m a y j u s t b e f o r e w e

turn to page 50 …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W h i c h I a c t u a ll y s h o u l d h a v e

m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r. In fa c t I f e l t s o s tr o n g a b o u t th e d e c is io n t h a t w a s
t a k e n a n d t h e i n te r f e r e n c e - i n te r f e r e n c e t h a t w e e x p e r ie n c e d t h a t a t

Page 70 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h e ti m e I o p e n e d a c r i m in a l d o c k e t - a c a s e d o c k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I n 2 0 1 3 f o r in v e s t i g a t io n a n d m y

c o m p la i n t w a s fi r s tl y p e r j u r y i n t e r m s o f A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i d u r in g t h e
d is c i p l i n a r y o f A d v o c a te B r e y te n b a c h …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h e n a ls o a g a i n s t - a n d

in t e r fe r i n g w it h th e i n v e s t i g a t io n i ts e lf .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

D e fe a ti n g t h e e n d s o f j u s tic e i n

t e r m s o f A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i a s w e ll a s G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d t h e r e a s o n s
w h y I o p e n e d th e d o c k e t a g a in s t G e n e r a l o r w h y I s u p p l i e d a n a ffi d a v i t
a g a in s t G e n e r a l M d l u li w h ic h i n c lu d e d h i m i s a f te r h is r e i n s t a te d b e in g
- a f t e r h e w a s r e in s ta t e d h e d i d c e r t a i n a c t io n s w h ic h I w il l d e a l w i t h
la t e r i n th e - i n m y a ff id a v i t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm, hm.

O k a y.

N o t h a t i s f i n e b u t I h a v e ju s t

r e m e m b e r e d s o m e t h i n g a n d I w o u l d li k e s o m e c l a r i fic a ti o n . Yo u s a id a t
s o m e s ta g e e a r l ie r t h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e s o c a ll e d h i g h e r
r a n k i n g p o l ic e o ffic e r s w h o w e n t t o s e e A d v o c a t e M r w e b i t o e x p l a i n h o w
20

c e r t a i n t h i n g s w o r k u n d e r t h e i n te ll ig e n c e .

Yo u s a i d y o u u n d e r s to o d

t h o s e t o h a v e i n c lu d e d L a z a r u s a n d B a r n a r d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Yo u - y o u - b u t y o u s a i d t h e r e p r o b a b l y w e r e

o th e r s t h a t y o u d o n o t k n o w ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, y e s .

Page 71 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w d o - d o y o u k n o w h o w i t h a d c o m e a b o u t th a t

t h e y w e n t t o s e e h i m ? A t w h o s e in i ti a tiv e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I - I - t h a t I c a n n o t a n s w e r.
I w o u ld - I w o u l d p r e s u m e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n t h e in i ti a ti v e o n
General Lazarus …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O r h is - h is le g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

B e c a u s e a s - th e m e e ti n g t o o k

p l a c e a t t h e N PA . S o I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B a s e d o n th a t I w o u l d p r e s u m e i t

was done by - by Lazarus.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

T h a n k y o u o r m a y b e b e fo r e I - w e p r o c e e d .

W e h a v e p a s s e d t h e s t a g e w h e r e w e w e r e d e a li n g w i t h m a t t e r s t h a t a r e
d e a lt w i t h i n J u d g e M u r p h y ’s ju d g m e n t a n d J u d g e B r a n d ’s j u d g m e n t . I n
J u d g e M u r p h y ’s j u d g m e n t t h e r e is r e f e r e n c e t o a l e t te r t h a t Mr M d l u l i is
s a i d t o h a v e w r i t te n t o t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t i n 2 0 11 w h e r e h e s a i d
s o m e t h i n g li k e i f I c o m e b a c k I w il l h e lp y o u o r a s s is t y o u .
20

D o w e h a v e a c o m p le t e - c o p y o f a c o m p l e te - th a t c o m p l e t e
le t t e r i n t h e b u n d l e o r d o w e n o t h a v e it ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o w e d o n o t C h a ir. In f a c t i t is o n e
of the letters that I have queried.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

In t h e M o k g o r o C o m m i s s i o n th e y

Page 72 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
r e fe r t o t h e l e t te r p e r s e i n t h e t i m e c h r o n o l o g y b u t t h e y o n ly d o s o w i t h
r e fe r e n c e

to

th e

ju d g m e n t i ts e lf .

We

have

been

encountering

d i ff ic u l ti e s in fi n d i n g t h a t p a r tic u la r le t t e r. T h i s p a r tic u la r w it n e s s d o e s
h o w e v e r ta lk t o a l e t te r i n t h e s a m e m o n t h a n d s a m e y e a r. W i t h y o u r
le a v e I c o u ld t a k e y o u t o i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , b u t …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t t h e d a t e o f t h e l e tt e r a p p e a r s to
b e d i ff e r e n t a n d i t c e r t a in ly d o e s n o t p r e s e n t t o b e t h e s a m e le t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

H a s s o m e b o d y c h e c k e d t h e c o u r t p a p e r s in t h e - i n

t h e fu ll a p p l ic a ti o n b e c a u s e I - I a s s u m e t h a t i n r e f e r r i n g to i t a n d
q u o ti n g a s e n t e n c e f r o m i t J u d g e M u r p h y w o u ld h a v e s e e n t h e l e t t e r.
U n l e s s t h e le t t e r w a s n o t a tt a c h e d b u t s o m e b o d y h a d q u o t e d t h e l e t te r
a n d n o b o d y h a d d is p u t e d th a t th a t - th e r e w a s s u c h a le t t e r a n d th a t i t
said what was quoted.
H a s s o m e b o d y c h e c k e d th e - th e c o u r t a p p l ic a t i o n i n t h e f u ll
matter?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s th e fir s t p l a c e to c h e c k . W i ll y o u a r r a n g e fo r
somebody to check?

20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W il l d o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d a c t u a l ly i f w e d o n o t a lr e a d y h a v e w e s h o u ld
h a v e t h e f u l l p a p e r s i n th e fu ll m a t t e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W il l - w il l a t te n d t o i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n p a g e 5 0 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u n o w

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deal …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y a g a i n M s S e p t e m b e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b l e m C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k i t w il l b e i m p o r t a n t w h e n y o u l o o k a t

J u d g e M u r p h y ’s j u d g m e n t f o r p u r p o s e s o f j u s t m e n ti o n i n g t h e i m p o r t a n t
c o n c l u s i o n s o r f in d in g s . I t w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t t o c h e c k w h e th e r h e m a d e
a n y f in d i n g t h a t th e d e c is io n b y A d v o c a te M r w e b i to w i t h d r a w t h e
c h a r g e s t h a t th e c h a r g e s b e i n g w it h d r a w n . W h e t h e r i t w a s m e a n t t o b e
a p e r m a n e n t d e c i s i o n o r n o t - fi n a l d e c i s i o n o r n o t.
10

I a m - I a m i m a g in in g t h a t i f t h e w it h d r a w a l o f t h e c h a r g e s
w a s p r o v i s i o n a l i t w o u l d b e d i ffi c u l t t o - t o s e e w h y t h e c o u r t w o u l d s e t
t h a t d e c is i o n a s id e - a p r o v is i o n a l d e c is io n . U n l e s s t h e c o u r t c a m e to
t h e c o n c l u s io n t h a t e v e n i f i t w a s p r o v i s io n a l i t w a s s o b a d t h a t i t
s h o u l d b e s e t a s i d e b e c a u s e n o r m a ll y if i t is - i f i t is a p r o v is i o n a l
withdrawal of charges it means the charges can be brought back once
w h a t e v e r e v id e n c e w a s t h o u g h t t o b e o u t s t a n d in g h a s b e e n f o u n d a s
b e i n g c o ll e c t e d .
S o I t h o u g h t I w o u l d ju s t a le r t y o u t h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d i n t h a t
p a r t a s w e l l.

20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: There was a question about whether
o r n o t t h e c o u r t d i d i n f a c t h a v e r e v i e w a b i li ty p o w e r s i n r e la t io n t o a
p r o v i s i o n a l d e c is io n a s c o m p a r e d to a fi n a l d e c is i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d a l t h o u g h th e H i g h C o u r t d i d n o t
a g r e e w i t h th e ju d g m e n t o f J u s t ic e N a v s a - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e
p a r t ic u l a r c a s e r i g h t n o w - w h ic h s a i d t h a t t h e r e is r e a l ly n o d i ffe r e n c e
b e t w e e n a p r o v is i o n a l a s o p p o s e d to fi n a l d e c is i o n o n t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f
c h a r g e s . T h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l fo u n d th a t - in f a c t f o l l o w e d t h e
- t h e S C A d e c i s i o n a n d t h e j u d g m e n t o f N a v s a b u t I w ill lo o k in t o th e
p a r t ic u l a r i ty o f it a n d r e v e r t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a g e 5 0 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t . H o w w o u ld
10

y o u d e s c r i b e t h e c o o p e r a t i o n o f M d l u l i i n t h e in v e s ti g a t io n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

D e s c r ib e

-

describe

the

c o o p e r a ti o n o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e c o o p e r a t io n o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i in
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : W e l l I d i d n o t g e t a n y c o o p e r a t io n
fr o m G e n e r a l M d lu li i n t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n .

H e d i d h is b e s t t o fr u s tr a t e

t h e in v e s t i g a t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And how did he …
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Well I guess - I guess maybe there may be some

u n f a i r n e s s i n t a l k i n g a b o u t c o o p e r a t i o n i n r e l a ti o n to h i m w h e n t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n i s a g a i n s t h i m a n d h e i s a s u s p e c t b e c a u s e w h a t
o b li g a ti o n w o u l d t h e r e b e o r a s u s p e c t t o a s s is t th e p o li c e t o g e t h i m
p r o s e c u t e d . Th a t i s m e a n t f o r y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: For me?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u u s e d t h e w o r d c o o p e r a t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s

I

d id

indeed

and

my

u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h a t w h e r e c h a r g e s h a v e in f a c t b e e n l a i d a g a in s t a n y
p a r t ic u l a r i n d i v i d u a l i t w o u l d b e e x p e c t e d t h a t a n y p a r ti c u l a r - t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r i n d iv id u a l w o u l d a s s is t t h e p o li c e a s f a r a s p o s s i b le w i th o u t
i m p e d in g o r p r e j u d i c i n g t h e ir o w n r ig h ts to d o s o a n d i t is i n t h a t
c o n te x t t h a t I a s k a q u e s ti o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In w h a t w a y. H e h a s a r i g h t t o r e m a i n s i le n t .
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n w h a t w a y c a n h e a s s is t ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i t l e a d s t h e n t o t h e - to t h e

a n s w e r t h a t t h is w i t n e s s h a s g iv e n . I n s o fa r a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t i t g iv e s …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t fr u s tr a t e d t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I t g iv e s a n i m p r e s s io n - it m a y u n f a i r ly g iv e a

n e g a tiv e i m p r e s s io n t o Mr M d l u l i’s p o s i ti o n b e c a u s e i t s u g g e s t s th e r e
w a s a n o b l ig a ti o n o n h i m t o c o o p e r a t e a n d i f b y c o o p e r a ti n g i t i s m e a n t
t h a t h e m u s t a s s i s t t h e p o l ic e i n th e ir i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t m ig h t b e
20

p r o b le m a t ic .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M y c h o i c e o f w o r d w a s c e r ta i n ly n o t

to suggest …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a t h e w a s to d o s o in a n y p r e j u d i c e
t o h is o w n r i g h ts …

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o I w i ll r e p h r a s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e l l m a y b e y o u m i g h t w a n t to p u t i t i n a w a y

t h a t w o u ld r e fl e c t w h a t y o u h a v e i n m in d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

How

d id

G e n e r a l M d l u li

i n v o lv e

h i m s e l f i n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n i f a t a l l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir G e n e r a l M d l u l i d i d - d i d n o t

a s s is t i n th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a s is - a s i s h is r i g h t b u t h e d i d f r u s t r a t e th e
in v e s t i g a t io n b y c e r t a in a c ti o n s w h ic h h e to o k d u r i n g a s p e c i f ic
10

ti m e f r a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h in k th a t - t h a t i s t h e p a r t t h a t m a y b e r e l e v a n t
in s o f a r a s i f t h e e v i d e n c e is h e s o u g h t t o fr u s tr a te t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n .
T h a t is - t h a t i s d i ff e r e n t . Ye s .

In w h a t w a y d i d h e - w h a t d i d h e d o

t h a t y o u r e g a r d i t a s fr u s t r a t in g th e i n v e s t i g a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r w h a t h a p p e n e d is t h a t h e

w a s - h is s u s p e n s i o n w a s l i ft e d . G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s s u s p e n s i o n w a s l i f te d
o n 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 a n d h e th e n c o n ti n u e d w i t h h is d u ti e s a s th e
D i v is io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e . D u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d t h a t h e
w a s - t h a t h e - th a t h e w e n t b a c k to w o r k I w a s i n f o r m e d b y C r i m e
20

I n t e lli g e n c e m e m b e r s - v a r io u s o f t h e m q u i te a f e w o f t h e m - t h a t
G e n e r a l M d l u l i s e t i n m o t io n a d r iv e t o i d e n t i fy t h o s e C I m e m b e r s w h o
a s s is t e d m e in t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n - t h e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
T h e r e s u l t th e r e o f i s t h a t m o r e t h a n 2 0 m e m b e r s o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e w e r e tr a n s f e r r e d w i t h i n d a y s a ft e r h is r e a p p o in t m e n t .
P e o p l e w h ic h h e t h o u g h t o f o r s u s p e c t e d o f a s s is t in g m e .

Page 77 of 233

On

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
4 April 2012 General …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m e a n - I a m s o r r y. Yo u s a y p e o p l e t h a t h e t h o u g h t
w e r e a s s is t in g y o u i n y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n w e r e tr a n s f e r r e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t

is

correct

C h a ir.

On

4 A p r i l 2 0 1 2 G e n e r a l M d l u l i r e l e a s e d a c i r c u l a r t o a ll C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e
members

for

signature

warning

th e m

not

to

d is c lo s e

c la s s i f ie d

in f o r m a ti o n t o t h e m e d i a a n d o th e r p e r s o n s o r b o d ie s n o t a u t h o r is e d t o
r e c e i v e s u c h - s u c h i n f o r m a ti o n .
T h i s c ir c u l a r to g e t h e r w i th a tr a n s f e r o f m e m b e r s l e d to a
10

s i tu a ti o n w h e r e m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w e r e n o lo n g e r w ill i n g to
a s s is t m e e v e n to - to a s s is t m e - e v e n t o a s s is t in s u p p l y i n g a ff id a v i ts
r e l a ti n g t o t h e c h a i n o f e v i d e n c e t e s t i m o n y.

G e n e r a l M d l u l i’s a c ti o n s

a r e n o t o n ly t a n t a m o u n t t o in t i m id a ti o n b u t a ls o o b s tr u c t in g a l a w fu l
c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n . A c o p y o f t h e c ir c u l a r i s a t ta c h e d a s p e r K D R 2 2 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: And then can I ask you to turn to
p a g e 2 - 6 - 3 p l e a s e ? C h a i r w e a p o l o g is e f o r th e - t h e b o ld p r i n t - b o ld
c o p y o f t h i s d o c u m e n t b u t i t a p p e a r s t o s ti l l b e l e g i b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e g e t t h e r e f ir s t . Yo h , t h is is b a d . Yo u m u s t tr y
a n d g e t s o m e b o d y w h o c a n r e a d t h is t o ty p e i t - r e t y p e i t .
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W il l d o s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is t h i s t h e c ir c u l a r th a t w a s - t h a t y o u
r e fe r r e d t o M r R o e lo fs e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d is i t c o r r e c t th a t t h is c i r c u l a r i s

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d a t e d 0 4 /0 4 / 2 0 1 2 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. M e r e ly f o u r
days after being reinstated.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And

it

is

ti t le d

“D is c l o s u r e

of

C l a s s i fi e d I n f o r m a ti o n C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e ”?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W o u l d y o u lik e t o … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u - in p a r a g r a p h 1 7 0 w h ic h y o u h a v e r e a d r e a d - w h i c h y o u h a v e r e a d o u t y o u - y o u s e e m t o b e c r i t ic a l o f th a t - o f
10

t h a t c ir c u l a r b u t fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e q u o t e d i n p a r a g r a p h 7 0 - 1 7 0 i t
seems that General - General Mdluli said nothing more than what the
la w r e q u ir e s o f p e o p l e .

N a m e ly t h e y s h o u ld n o t d iv u l g e c la s s i f ie d

in f o r m a ti o n t o p e o p l e n o t a u t h o r i s e d to h a v e t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir t h a t i s - t h a t is c o r r e c t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

But I – the reason why I placed

t h is d o c u m e n t h e r e i s t h e fa c t t h a t i t n e e d s to b e u n d e r s t o o d i n t h e
ti m e f r a m e w h e n th is h a p p e n e d it w a s t h e t i m e fr a m e w h e r e w e w e r e
g e t t in g o r I w a s g e t t in g a l o t o f r e s i s t a n c e i n a s s i s ta n c e fr o m S A P S i n
20

g e n e r a l a n d i t ’s a ls o t h e ti m e f r a m e w h e r e m e m b e r s w e r e tr a n s f e r r e d
a n d t h e o th e r p e r s o n s a n d b o d i e s , n o t a u t h o r i s e d to r e c e iv e s u c h
in f o r m a ti o n , f o r m e i t ’s a c le a r i n d ic a ti o n t h a t h e w a s r e fe r r i n g t o t h e
D P C I o r t h e H a w k s n o t t o r e c e iv e fu r t h e r i n f o r m a ti o n .

T h a t is h o w I

r e a d i t a n d h o w I u n d e r s t o o d i t . Th e r e ’s a f u r th e r l e tt e r w h ic h r e fl e c ts
o n m e a s a p e r s o n w h i c h w il l p r o b a b ly i n fo r m t h e C h a ir w h y I w o u l d

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
r e a d t h is in t h i s m a n n e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e tr a n s fe r o f c e r t a i n p e o p le , d o y o u w a n t to ta lk

m o r e i n t e r m s o f w h e t h e r y o u ’r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a s i t u a t io n w h e r e p e o p le
were

being

tr a n s fe r r e d

to

fa r a w a y

places

where

maybe, further

c o m m u n ic a ti o n w it h y o u w o u l d b e d i ff ic u l t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I’ m n o t r e f e r r i n g t o t h a t k i n d

o f t r a n s f e r s , it w o u l d b e a tr a n s f e r fr o m - y o u w o u l d w o r k i n a n
I n t e lli g e n c e G a t h e r in g U n i t d o i n g y o u r n o r ma l d a y - to - d a y f u n c ti o n a n d
t h e n y o u g e t tr a n s f e r r e d to a S A P 1 3 s t o r e o r a s t o r e w h e r e g o o d s a r e
10

b e i n g p r o t e c t e d . In o th e r w o r d s y o u r r e l e v a n c e b e c o m e s t h e n n u ll a n d
void.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u a r e m o v e d fr o m y o u r n o r m a l j o b ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

To a n o t h e r s e c t io n o r u n i t a n d b e c a u s e y o u a r e n o w

in a n o t h e r u n i t w h a t e v e r in f o r m a t io n t h a t p e r s o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b le
t o g iv e t o y o u , w h i l e h e r e m a i n e d w h e r e h e w a s , h e c a n ’t g iv e i t to y o u
n o w b e c a u s e h e ’s s o m e w h e r e e ls e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r b u t t o p u t i t

in t o c o n te x t w h e n th o s e in d iv i d u a ls w e r e r e m o v e d th e y w e r e n ’ t p u t i n t o
20

in – if y o u t a l k a b o u t l e v e l s th e y w e r e p u t i n to , i n t h e i r m in d s , a n d I
a g r e e w i t h t h e m i n t o a l o w e r l e v e l , i n o t h e r w o r d s a r e s p o n s ib il i ty th a t
t h e y h a d w a s b a s ic a l ly ta k e n a w a y fr o m th e m a n d t h e y w e r e p l a c e d in a
p o s i ti o n w h e r e t h e r e is a c t u a l ly n o r e s p o n s i b i li ty, a ls o n o a c c e s s t o
d o c u m e n t a ti o n i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e y w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o a s s is t m e in
a n y e v e n t , t h a t is t h e s e c o n d p a r t o f w h a t w a s a c h ie v e d t h r o u g h t h a t .

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CHAIRPERSON:

S o h e is , p a r t o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g th a t t h o s e

p e o p l e w h o w e r e tr a n s fe r r e d w h o h a d b e e n a s s is ti n g y o u w e r e
v ic ti m i s e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

B u t a p a r t fr o m b e i n g v ic ti m is e d y o u s a y o n c e th e y

h a d b e e n m o v e d fr o m t h e p o s i t io n s w h e r e t h e y h a d b e e n h e lp i n g y o u ,
t h e y c o u ld n o l o n g e r h e lp y o u ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

B e c a u s e i n o r d e r t o h e l p y o u th e y n e e d e d t o h a v e

b e e n i n t h e s a m e p o s i ti o n s w h e r e th e y w e r e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C o r r e c t C h a ir, t h e y n e e d t o h a v e

a c c e s s t o th e r e l e v a n t i n f o r m a t io n a n d d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e r e o t h e r p e o p l e t h e n p u t in th e p o s i ti o n s fr o m

w h ic h th e y h a d b e e n r e m o v e d o r is th a t s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u d o n ’ t k n o w ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I w o u l d a s s u m e s o , I d o n ’ t

k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M r R o e l o f s e w o u ld a n e x a m p le o f

e x a c tl y w h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r in g to b e w h e n C o l o n e l N e ls o n w a s
20

appointed to replace General Hankel?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
Can you please take the Chair

t h r o u g h w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h is i n s t a n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir, a f t e r th e r e m o v a l o f

G e n e r a l H a n k e l , t h e r e w a s a C o lo n e l N e ls o n a p p o in t e d to a s s i s t m e

Page 81 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
w i t h th e – fr o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e s i d e w i t h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . N o t h i n g
c a m e fr o m t h a t s i t u a t i o n b e c a u s e h e w a s n e v e r i n a p o s i ti o n t o a s s is t
m e , h e w a s n e v e r a l lo w e d t o a s s is t m e .

A f t e r th e r e i n s t a t e m e n t o f

G e n e r a l M d lu li I c o n ta c t e d C o l o n e l N e ls o n , i t w a s o n th e 4 t h o f M a y
2 0 1 2 t o g e t a c c e s s to d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h ic h I n e e d e d i n t h e c r i m i n a l
in v e s t i g a t io n . I a ls o i n f o r m e d h i m a t th e ti m e t h a t d is c u s s m y r e q u e s t
w i t h G e n e r a l M d l u l i a s t h e h e a d o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a t t h e t i m e .

I

in f o r m e d h i m th a t – I i n f o r m e d G e n e r a l C o l o n e l N e l s o n th a t i f G e n e r a l
M d lu li r e f u s e d t h e i n f o r m a ti o n , G e n e r a l M d lu li m u s t in d ic a t e t h e
10

r e a s o n s f o r r e fu s a l i n w r i ti n g .

O n th e 6 t h o f M a y G e n e r a l N e ls o n

in f o r m e d m e t h a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a n t e d a l e t te r fr o m m e , c o n f ir m i n g I
w a s c o n t i n u in g w it h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . I r e f e r r e d h is r e q u e s t t o G e n e r a l
D r a m a t a n d t h e d e c is io n w a s t a k e n n o t to r e s p o n d to t h e r e q u e s t fr o m
G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d a g a in I f o u n d m y s e l f i n th e p o s i ti o n w h e r e I h a v e t o
r e q u e s t d o c u m e n t a t i o n fr o m a s u s p e c t i n a s p e c i fic m a t t e r. O n t h e 7 t h
o f M a y G e n e r a l M d lu li a d d r e s s e d a l e t t e r to G e n e r a l Mk h w a n a z i w h o
w a s t il l t h e a c t in g N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a t th e ti m e a n d G e n e r a l
Dramat under

the

h e a d i n g , s o li c i ti n g

o f in f o r m a t io n

fr o m C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e , C o lo n e l R o e l o f s e i n w h ic h h e a c c u s e s m e o f u n e t h i c a l
20

c o n d u c t , u n e t h i c a l a n d u n f o u n d e d b e h a v i o u r a n d b a d in t e n t i o n s .

The

d o c u m e n t a tt a c h e d is A n n e x u r e 2 3 a n d o n t h a t s a m e d a y N e l s o n w a s
tr a n s fe r r e d to a n o t h e r d iv is i o n i n w h ic h h e h a s n o e x p e r i e n c e w i t h i n C I .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u M r R o e l o fs e to t u r n t o

p a g e 2 6 7 p le a s e , i s t h a t t h e l e t t e r t h a t y o u r e fe r t o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 82 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

C a n y o u p l e a s e in f o r m w h a t t h e g is t

o f t h e l e t t e r i s a n d t h a t p a r a g r a p h w h ic h r e a l ly ta lk s t o i t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir b a s i c a ll y t h e – i t’s a v e r y

s h o r t l e t te r a n d t h e w h o l e l e t te r ta lk s t o w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d t h e r e . S o I
w o u ld s t a r t w i t h p a r a g r a p h t w o ,
“ I t i s r e p o r t e d th a t h e , a n d t h a t is n o w r e fe r r i n g t o m e ,
a p p r o a c h e d th e p r e v i o u s ly a p p o i n t e d l ia is o n t o o b t a in fu r t h e r
c la s s if i e d in f o r m a t io n fr o m d iv i s i o n s r e c o r d e x p li c i tl y s t a t i n g
that the case is re-opened.
10

T h is u n e th ic a l a n d u n fo u n d e d

b e h a v io u r i s in d i c a t iv e o f t h e b a d in t e n t i o n s a s s o c i a te d w i th
t h e m e m b e r c o n c e r n e d . I th in k i t ’s c o m m o n k n o w le d g e t h a t t h e
r e l e v a n t b o d i e s , n a m e ly t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l o f I n te ll ig e n c e
and

the

A u d i to r

General

have

been

tasked

with

the

in v e s t i g a t io n s u r r o u n d i n g t h e i s s u e s o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e .
T h e r e f o r e , t h e b e h a v i o u r o f t h e m e m b e r i s s u ff ic ie n t p r o o f o f
h is d e v i o u s i n t e n ti o n s .

W e a r e a ll a w a r e o f t h e l e a k a g e o f

c la s s if i e d i n f o r m a t io n t o th e m e d i a a n d t h is ty p e o f b e h a v io u r
h a s a c o m p o u n d i n g e ff e c t to t h e c u r r e n t s i t u a t io n . It w o u l d b e
m u c h a p p r e c ia t e d i f y o u c o u ld k i n d ly in f o r m t h e p e r s o n s
20

in v o lv e d t o r e fr a i n fr o m t h is u n p r o f e s s i o n a l a n d i n t i mi d a ti n g
t a c tic s b e i n g d i s p l a c e d .

To t h i s e n d I h a v e i n s tr u c t e d a l l

personnel

I n te ll i g e n c e

w it h in

Crime

in f o r m a ti o n s o s o lic i t e d

and

not

to

provide

any

th a t a n y s u c h a t t e m p ts b e

i m m e d i a t e ly r e p o r t e d ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t it w o u l d b e c o r r e c t , w o u ld i t n o t b e t h a t t o t h e

Page 83 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
e x t e n t th a t h e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t c l a s s i f ie d in f o r m a t io n t h e r e w o u l d b e
n o t h i n g w r o n g i n h i m s a y in g to t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r, p l e a s e t a lk
t o Mr R o e l o f s e o r e v e r y o n e c o n c e r n e d t o s a y t h e y m u s t n ’ t a p p r o a c h
p e o p l e a n d a s k t h e m t o g iv e t h e m c la s s i f ie d i n fo r m a ti o n b e c a u s e a s I
understand it, that could be interpreted to mean he was saying, if you
w a n t c l a s s i fi e d i n fo r m a ti o n f o ll o w th e p r o c e d u r e t h a t m u s t b e fo ll o w e d
t o g e t i t d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d t h e n y o u c a n g e t t h e i n fo r m a ti o n b u t d o n ’ t g e t
p e o p l e to a c t i n b r e a c h o f t h e ir c l a s s i fic a ti o n in s tr u m e n ts o r la w s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

C h a ir i t c o u ld b e in t e r p r e te d l ik e

t h a t b u t u n fo r t u n a t e l y in t h is s p e c i f ic i n s t a n c e th is is e x a c tl y w h y
C o l o n e l N e ls o n w a s a p p o i n t e d f o r th a t p r o c e d u r e t o ta k e p la c e .

I

f o ll o w e d th e p r o c e d u r e a n d t h a t i s h i s r e s p o n s e o n t h e p r o c e d u r e t h a t I
w a n t e d t o f o ll o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h is is w h e r e y o u c o m e i n w i th t h e c o m p la i n t t h a t

h e w a s fr u s tr a t i n g t h e in v e s ti g a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s o k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d s p e c i f ic t o t h e fir s t s e n t e n c e i n

paragraph four where he says,
20

“ I t h in k t h a t i t is c o m m o n k n o w l e d g e t h a t t h e r e l e v a n t b o d ie s ,
n a m e ly th e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l o f I n te ll ig e n c e a n d th e A u d i t o r
G e n e r a l h a v e b e e n t a s k e d w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s s u r r o u n d i n g
t h e is s u e o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ” .
I n f a ir n e s s to t h i s l e t te r, b e a r i n g i n m in d t h a t t h is l e t t e r is in
f a c t d a te d th e 7 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 2 , i t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t t h a t t h e m a n d a t e o f

Page 84 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h e I G I w a s c l a r if i e d o n t h e 1 9 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 2 w h ic h p r e c e d e d t h e d a t e
o f t h i s l e tt e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.
W h e r e a s th e l e t t e r f r o m t h e A u d i to r

G e n e r a l o f S o u t h A fr ic a , w h i c h is d a t e d t h e 2 5 t h o f J u l y 2 0 1 2 s u c c e e d s
t h is le t t e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

10

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

Is th e r e a n y th in g – h e s a y s i n th a t fir s t s e n t e n c e o f

paragraph

of

four

his

l e tt e r

w h ic h

s e e ms

to

be

the

same

t h i n g [ in d is ti n c t ] w h e t h e r h e h a s s a id o r w h e r e h e h a s s a id e it h e r b e f o r e
o r a f t e r.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o r r y C h a ir I m i s s e d th e f ir s t

part.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u r e a d t h a t f ir s t s e n t e n c e i n p a r a g r a p h f o u r o f

h is l e t te r a b o u t t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l a n d t h e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l , i s h e r e
a n y th in g h e s a y s in t h a t fir s t s e n t e n c e t h a t s e e ms t o b e t h e s a m e a s
w h a t – I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e r e h e s a id e i t h e r b e f o r e o r a ft e r in tr y i n g to
ju s t i fy h is d e c i s i o n t o w i th d r a w t h e c h a r g e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a ir th e r e a s o n s u s e d in

p a r a g r a p h fo u r i s e x a c t ly t h e s a m e r e a s o n t h a t w a s a d v a n c e d b y
A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e , i n f a c t , o r t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l h a s a lr e a d y
c la r i fi e d b u t A d v o c a te M a g w e b e a t th is p o in t i n ti m e h a s n o t c o n c e d e d
y e t to t h e f a c t th a t e i th e r t h e I G I n o r t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l h a d n o t
c o n c e d e d th a t i t ’s t h e ir r e s p o n s i b i li ty. S o h e w o u l d f o ll o w t h a t h e w o u l d
t h e n s a y t h is i f h e h a s b e e n e i t h e r i n c o n t a c t o r h e k n o w s w h a t t h e

Page 85 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d e c is i o n is o f A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t w a s w h a t I w a s w o n d e r i n g , w h y th e r e w a s –

t h e y m a y h a v e b e e n s a y i n g t h e s a m e th in g .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i f I c a n r e v e r t y o u b a c k t o

t h e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s t h a t w a s m a d e r i g h t in th e b e g i n n i n g t h e r e w e r e
c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n A d v o c a t e M a g w e b e a n d G e n e r a l M d lu li r i g h t fr o m t h e
s t a r t , t h a t is n o t – I s tr o n g l y b e l ie v e t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w y o u m e a n a t t h e ti m e w h e n b o t h o f t h e k n e w

t h a t h e w a s a s u s p e c t a n d th e r e w a s a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n g o i n g o n ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r o th e r w i s e h e

w o u ld n o t h a v e k n o w n a l l t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t h e s ta t e s in p a r a g r a p h
f o u r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t s h o u ld n o t h a v e h a p p e n e d , s h o u ld i t –

should it have happened?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELO FSE:

N o C h a ir i t s h o u ld n o t h a v e

happened.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s i f a s u s p e c t , is t h e p o s i ti o n th a t if a s u s p e c t

w a n ts to m a k e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s t o t h e N PA f o r t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f c h a r g e s
t h e n t h e y m a k e th o s e r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s in w r i t in g a n d y o u w o u ld g e t a
20

c o p y s o t h a t y o u c a n c o u n t e r i f y o u w a n t t o c o u n t e r o r i s t h a t s o m e th i n g
y o u ’r e n o t f a mi li a r w i t h ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir in t h e c a s e s t h a t I ’v e

w o r k e d a n d t h e P r o s e c u t o r s I’v e w o r k e d w i th th a t is t h e w a y i t w a s
d e a lt w i t h , i f th e r e w a s a r e p r e s e n t a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e i s t r a n s p a r e n c y n o r m a lly ?

Page 86 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e r e is tr a n s p a r e n c y, i t ’s n o t f o r

m e t o s a y w h a t n e e d s to b e d o n e b u t i t’s f o r m e t o a s k m y o p i n i o n i n
t e r m s o f – a n d h e c a n e i t h e r a c c e p t m y o p i n i o n o r h e d o e s n ’t h a v e to
accept it.

S o t h a t i s n o r m a l ly w h a t h a p p e n s i n t h e c a s e s th a t I a m

in v o lv e d i n . In t h is m a t t e r w e h a v e n ’ t – I ’v e s e e n t h e d o c u m e n t r e la t in g
t o t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n , I o n ly s a w a f te r w a r d s s o I w a s n ’ t p r i v y t o th e m a t
t h e ti m e a n d w e w e r e n o t r e q u e s t e d t o g iv e a n i n p u t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

M r R o e lo fs e y o u r e v i d e n c e n o w

t u r n s to f u r t h e r e x p e r i e n c e s t h a t y o u ’v e h a d o f n o n - c o o p e r a t io n w it h
p o li c e m a n a g e m e n t , w e ’r e o n p a g e 5 1 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Since when have you been unable to

o b t a i n d o c u m e n ts fr o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I h a v e n o t b e e n a b le t o

r e tr i e v e a n y d o c u m e n t a t i o n s in c e 1 9 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 a f t e r t h e f in d in g o f t h e
I G I a n d I b e li e v e th is is a d ir e c t r e s u l t o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i ’s a c ti o n s . Yo u
w i ll r e c a l l th a t I t e s t if i e d t h a t t h e r e w a s a p e r i o d t h a t w e d id n o t
c o n ti n u e w i th in v e s t i g a t io n s w h il e i t w a s i n t h e h a n d s o f th e I G I t o
20

m a k e a d e c is i o n . S o a f t e r t h is d a te , th e 1 9 t h , w e h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d a n y
c o o p e r a ti o n fr o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e i n r e s p e c t o f d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t
w a s r e q u e s te d fr o m t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s n ’ t t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t h e e i t h e r r e s i g n e d o r r e t ir e d a

f e w m o n t h s a g o o r s o m e t h in g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir if I’ m n o t m is t a k e n h e h a s

Page 87 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
r e tir e d , it w a s la s t y e a r, h e w a s o n s u s p e n s i o n a f te r h i s r e - s u s p e n s i o n
in , I t h in k J u n e 2 0 1 2 s o h e w a s o n s u s p e n s io n f o r s i x y e a r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A f te r h e h a d r e tir e d d i d y o u m a k e a n y a t t e m p t t o g e t

d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u c o u l d n ’ t g e t w h i l e h e w a s th e r e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r I m a d e v a r i o u s a t te m p t s b u t

n o t n e c e s s a r i ly r e g a r d i n g n e w d o c u m e n ts I m a d e v a r i o u s a t t e m p ts t o
g e t d o c u m e n ts d e c la s s i f ie d . A t t h e ti m e I g a v e u p i n g e t t in g a d d i ti o n a l
d o c u m e n t a ti o n fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e I j u s t w a n t e d t h e o n e s t h a t I d o
h a v e t o b e d e c l a s s i fi e d .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m w o n d e r in g w h e th e r h is a b s e n c e n o w w il l m a k e

a n y d i ff e r e n c e i n te r ms o f y o u g e t t in g c o o p e r a ti o n to h a v e d o c u m e n t s
d e c l a s s i fi e d , w h e t h e r th a t h a s b e e n te s te d o r n o t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i t d i d n ’ t m a k e a n y

d i ff e r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t d i d n o t m a k e a n y d i ffe r e n c e ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e p r o b l e m a s y o u s e e i t w a s m o r e th a n h i m ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

N o C h a ir.

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , o k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

W h o d i d y o u a p p r o a c h – r a th e r,

fir s tly i t i s c o r r e c t th a t o n t h e 2 8 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 2 G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s r e s u s p e n d e d a ft e r s u b mi t t in g r e p r e s e n ta t io n s a s t o w h y h e s h o u l d n o t b e
suspended?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
And who did you approach during

Page 88 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
J u l y o f 2 0 1 2 fo r a s s is t a n c e w i th in t h e p o l ic e t o o b ta i n d o c u m e n ts t h a t
you needed?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h e a c ti n g D iv is io n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w a s M a jo r G e n e r a l C h r is N g c o b o
a n d o n t h e 5 t h o f J u l y I tr i e d t o – I tr i e d to r e s c h e d u le t h e m e e ti n g t h a t I
a r r a n g e d fo r th e 4 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 2 a n d i t w a s c a n c e ll e d w i t h o u t p r o v i d in g
t h e r e a s o n s . I s e n t a f o l lo w u p w r i t t e n r e q u e s t o n t h e 1 0 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 2
c a l li n g f o r a m e e t i n g a f t e r tr y in g s e v e r a l ti m e s t o s e c u r e a m e e t i n g
t h r o u g h h is s t a ff .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o w a s it t h a t a t l e a s t a s e a r l y a s

the 5th of July 2012 that you had approached Major General Ngcobo for
a s s is t a n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I p r o b a b ly a p p r o a c h e d h i m

ju s t b e f o r e th e 4 t h o f J u ly b e c a u s e t h e m e e ti n g w a s s e t d o w n f o r th e 4 t h
w h ic h w a s c a n c e ll e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t h a p p e n e d to w a r d s t h e e n d o f

J u l y t h a t s a m e y e a r, 2 0 1 2 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I w a s p r o v i d e d w it h a n

e m a i l , m e d i a e n q u ir y, d a te d 11 t h J u l y s e n t b y S a m S o l e a r e p o r te r fr o m
20

t h e M a il & G u a r d ia n w h ic h w a s a d d r e s s e d t o M r s S w e l e M n is i , t h e
s p o k e s p e r s o n o f t h e M in is t e r o f p o li c e a t th e ti m e a n d M a j o r G e n e r a l
N o n k u lu l e k a B a t a w h o w a s th e h e a d o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n s a t S A P S . T h e
e n q u ir y i n d ic a t e d t o m e t h a t t h e S A P S m a n a g e m e n t w a s a w a r e o f th e
a l le g a ti o n s a n d I ’ m ta lk i n g m a n a g e m e n t n o w i n t h e b r o a d e r s e n s e
a g a in s t m e m b e r s o f C I . T h e y w e r e a l s o a w a r e t h a t I a n d 1 2 o t h e r s a r e

Page 89 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
a c c u s e d o f p l a c i n g t h e e n tir e p o lic e s e r v ic e a t r i s k t o d a t e . I h a v e n o t
b e e n a p p r o a c h e d b y a n y o n e t o v e r i fy t h e a ll e g a ti o n s m a d e i n t h e e m a il .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e

2 7 0 , i s t h e m e d i a q u e r y o n e m a i l th a t y o u r e fe r r e d to ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d w h a t is t h e p u r p o s e o f

h i g h l ig h ti n g t h is p a r t ic u l a r e m a il to th e C o m m is s i o n in th e c o n t e x t o f
your evidence?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:
10

C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w w h e r e M r

S a m S o l e r e c e i v e d h is i n f o r m a t io n fr o m b u t t h e r e w e r e c e r t a i n
a l le g a ti o n s m a d e a g a i n s t m y s e lf a s w e l l a s o t h e r p e o p l e t h a t w a s
in v o lv e d i n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n , h e m u s t h a v e r e c e iv e d i t fr o m s o m e w h e r e
a n d t h e a ll e g a ti o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e , a n d I w o u ld li k e t o j u s t p o i n t o u t a
few of them,
“ S e n i o r p o l ic e m a n a g e r s a r e b e i n g ta r g e t e d t h r o u g h v a r io u s
m e a n s i n c lu d in g u n h a p p y o ffi c e s , m e d ia a s w e ll a s th e N G O ’s ” ,
H e b a s e d h i s d o c u m e n t o r h i s q u e s ti o n s o n t h e d o c u m e n t
ti t le d , e x te n s iv e i n t e ll i g e n c e r e p o r t , s e c u r i ty t h r e a t t o t h e S t a te . I t ’s n o t
d a t e d b u t a p p e a r s t o h a v e b e e n d r a f te d J u n e 2 0 1 2 .

20

I do not have

a c c e s s t o t h a t s p e c i f ic r e p o r t , I d i d n ’ t s e e t h e r e p o r t a n d a c c o r d i n g t o
M r S a m S o le is o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t th e d o c u m e n t w a s u s e d f o r
t h e v e r b a l b r ie f in g t o th e M i n is t e r a n d p o s s ib ly t h e I G I .

T h e y s ta t e

f u r th e r t h a t ,
“ N k h w a n a z i a n d H a n k e l w a n t t o in t e n s i fy t h e c a m p a ig n a b o u t
t h e a ll e g e d l o v e r e l a t i o n s h ip b e t w e e n t h e M in is t e r a n d t h e K Z N

Page 90 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
P r o v i n c ia l C o m m is s i o n e r. N k h w a n a z i a n d H a n k e l a r e a l s o i n v e s ti g a ti n g
t h e p u r c h a s e o f a n e w v e h i c l e d r iv e n b y B u t h e l e z i w h o w a s a l l e g e d t o
h a v e a r o m a n t ic r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h t h e M i n is t e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

F o r t h e r e c o r d th a t is P h il is iw e

Buthelezi, is that right?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u m u s t j u s t s p e l l s o m e o f t h e s e n a m e s s o t h a t t h e

tr a n s c r ib e r w i ll k n o w w h a t t o w r it e o th e r w i s e w h e n y o u r e a d t h e r e c o r d
it ju s t s a y s s o m e t h i n g v e r y s tr a n g e .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s i t p l e a s e s P h il is iw e B u th e le z i

( n a m e s p e l t) . P l e a s e p r o c e e d M r R o e l o fs e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d th e n i n s tr u c ti o n s w e r e g iv e n

t o i n v e s ti g a te G e n e r a l N g c o b o o f V I P r o t e c ti o n a n d G e n e r a l D l a l a o f t h e
P r e s i d e n ti a l Pr o t e c ti o n U n it t o g i v e g e n e r a l N k h w a n a z i a n d G e n e r a l
M a s i m o le c o n tr o l o v e r t h o s e u n i ts , b o t h m e n a r e b e i n g s u r v e i ll e d
in c l u d i n g b y m e a n s o f G e n e r a l H a n k e l’s g r a b b e r. O t h e r s p e c i fi c t a s k s
in th is r e g a r d w e r e g i v e n to G e n e r a l M a t h i b a , B r i g a d ie r M a m o s e l la a n d
B r i g a d ie r O d e n d a l a n d t h e n it a l s o r e p o r ts to t w o m e e ti n g s h e l d b y
G e n e r a l N k h w a n a z i w i t h C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e M a n a g e m e n t . C h a ir I w a n t
20

t o – t h e r e ’s q u i te a f e w a ll e g a t i o n s h e r e b u t I w a n t to g o to p o in t
number 20.
CHAIRPERSON:

Point number 20?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Point number 20.

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th e d o c u m e n t s t a te s t h a t,

Page 91 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
“ 1 3 p e o p l e h a v e b e e n id e n ti fi e d a s in v o lv e d in p la c i n g th e
e n t ir e p o l ic e s e r v ic e a t r i s k a n d th e n i t s t a te s t h e f o l l o w i n g n a m e s , i t ’s
N k h w a n a z i , G e n e r a l L e b e y a , G e n e r a l D r a m a t , G e n e r a l M a s e m o lo ,
General

M a th i b a ,

General

H a n k e l,

General

S ib e y a ,

Br i g a d ie r

M a d o n s e ll a , Br ig a d i e r O d e n d a l , Br ig a d i e r K h u m a l o , C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e ,
L i e u t e n a n t C o l o n e l Vi lj o e n a n d W a r r a n t O ff ic e M a c l e a n ” .
A n d th e n a ls o I ’v e b e e n a c c u s e d , t h e d o c u m e n t a c c u s e s
C o l o n e l R o e l o fs e o f l e a k i n g d o c u m e n ts t o o r g a n is a ti o n s o u t s i d e t h e
p o li c e a n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 2 3 ,
10

“ T h e d o c u m e n t a l le g e s t h a t G e r r i e N e l is r e c e i v i n g S t a te
d o c u m e n ts fr o m th e a b o v e m e n t i o n e d m e m b e r s a n d s u p p ly i n g
t h e m t o A d r i a n B a s s o n o f C i ty P r e s s ” ,
C h a ir t h e s e a r e v e r y s e r io u s a ll e g a t io n s t h a t w e r e m a d e b y M r
S a m S o l e , t h i s w a s n e v e r i n v e s t ig a te d , I w a s n e v e r a p p r o a c h e d i n
r e s p e c t o f th e s e a l l e g a ti o n s , I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e p o lic e ’s r e s p o n s e
w a s o n th e s e a l le g a ti o n s , i f t h is – i f t h e r e w a s a n y b a s is f o r t h e s e
a l le g a ti o n s

I

assume

it

would

have

been

i n v e s ti g a te d

and

c o n s e q u e n c e s w o u l d h a v e f o l lo w e d . S o fr o m w h e r e I s ta n d in te r ms o f
m y e x p e r ie n c e th a t I h a d w it h C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d th e w a y t h in g s
20

w e r e d o n e , th e d o c u m e n t w a s d r a f t e d in o r d e r to i m p li c a t e in d iv i d u a ls
t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n t h o s e i n d iv id u a l s f o r t h e m t o – t h e y w a n t t o m a k e
s u r e th a t t h o s e i n d iv id u a ls c a n n o t c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e ir – w it h w h a t e v e r
t h e y n e e d t o d o b e c a u s e t h e in d iv i d u a ls m e n ti o n e d h e r e t h a t is p a r t o f
t h is [i n d is t in c t] a r e a l l p e o p le i n i t ia ll y in v o lv e d w i th t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n in
t e r m s o f th e C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s Ac c o u n t .

Page 92 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s i t t h e n c o r r e c t t h a t th is d o c u m e n t

a t le a s t a s f a r a s t h e r e c ip i e n t s a r e c o n c e r n e d m a r k s a d a te o f
a w a r e n e s s o f a ll e g a ti o n s w i t h i n th e c o n t e x t o f t h e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e
D i v is io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A t t h e v e r y l e a s t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

On the 14th of May 2013 you

r e c e i v e d a r e q u e s t t o c o m p i l e a r e p o r t fr o m th e o ffic e o f G e n e r a l
D r a m a t , w e a r e b a c k o n p a g e 5 2 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a i r I w a s – I

r e c e i v e d a n e m a i l fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t ’s o ff ic e a s k i n g a s s is t a n c e t o
c o m p il e a r e p o r t a s r e q u e s te d in t h e [ i n d is ti n c t ] e m a i l a u t h o r e d b y
General Nkhwanazi on 14 May 2013.

A t t h is p o i n t i n t i m e G e n e r a l

N k h w a n a z i w a s n o t t h e a c t in g N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r, t h e t h e n N a t i o n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r G e n e r a l R i a h P h iy e g a r e q u ir e d t h e c o m p il a ti o n o f a
c o n s o l id a t e d r e p o r t i n r e s p e c t o f t h e v a r i o u s t o p ic s a d d r e s s e d i n t h e
email.

I state further that it is clear to me that SAPS senior

m a n a g e m e n t h a d k n o w l e d g e o f , a n d t h e c l e a r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h e
s e r io u s n e s s o f v a r i o u s a ll e g a ti o n s i n c lu d i n g th e m u r d e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n ,
ir r e g u l a r a p p o in t m e n t w i th i n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a n d a ll e g a ti o n s a g a in s t
20

s e n i o r o ff ic ia ls f r o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .

A c o p y o f th e e m a i l tr a i l is

a tt a c h e d a s A n n e x u r e K D I 2 5 . I d id n o t – I d i d r e s p o n d t h is r e q u e s t , I
d o n o t k n o w i f G e n e r a l D r a m a t s u b m i t te d t h e r e p o r t , I h a v e n o t s e e n
t h e r e p o r t G e n e r a l N k h w a n a z i h a d to c o m p il e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

B e f o r e w e t u r n t o t h is p a r ti c u la r

A n n e x u r e i t w o u l d b e a f a i r s ta t e m e n t t o s a y t h a t t h e S A P S s e n i o r

Page 93 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
management

that

you

refer

to

who

found

k n o w le d g e

in

th is

c o m m u n ic a ti o n a r e th o s e w h o a r e t h e n r e fl e c t e d in t h e e m a il i ts e lf ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 2 7 3

p l e a s e , b e c a u s e i t is a tr a ili n g e m a i l t h e f ir s t e m a i l o r r a t h e r t h e m a in
e m a i l a p p e a r s a t t h e b o t t o m o f p a g e 2 7 3 s e n t fr o m L ie u t e n a n t G e n e r a l
Nkhwanazi on the 14th of May 2013.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t l o o k s li k e I w e n t to a w r o n g p a g e . I w e n t to 3 7 3 –
you said 273?
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

2 7 3 C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e m a in e m a il is a s a tr a il i n g e m a il

– a s p a r t o f t h is tr a il i n g e m a il a p p e a r s a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h i s p a g e w h ic h
is s e n t b y L i e u te n a n t G e n e r a l N S M k h w a n a z i s p e l t M - k - h - w - a - n - a - z - i
a n d i t is s e n t o n th e 1 4 t h M a y 2 0 1 3 a t 1 2 . 3 0 p m – s o r r y – a n d it i s s e n t
t o L ie u t e n a n t G e n e r a l L e b e y a t h e D P C I h e a d M a z i b u k o N k r u m a h i f I a m
c o r r e c t – p r o n o u n c i n g t h a t c o r r e c tl y, L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M o l e f e J u l iu s ,
L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l D N C O p e r a ti o n a l S e r v ic e s , M a z i m o l a S F
L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l a n d th e s u b je c t t it l e is I n v e s t i g a t io n a t th e D iv is i o n
20

C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d i t is a d d r e s s e d t o a l l o f t h e s e

g e n e r a ls ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
I t i s q u i t e a l o n g e m a il b u t w h a t is

Page 94 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h e e s s e n c e o f t h is e m a il th a t i s s e n t to t h e g e n e r a ls ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I w il l j u s t – in s h o r t j u s t I

w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o s u m m a r is e i t b u t I w il l t a k e b u l le t p o i n t s f r o m t h e –
fr o m t h e e m a i l i ts e lf in t e r m s o f w h a t th e r e p o r t n e e d s to c o v e r.
I t n e e d s t o c o v e r b a c k g r o u n d i n fo r m a ti o n r e g a r d in g L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l
M d lu li ’s m u r d e r a n d c o r r u p ti o n c a s e s .
I n f o r m a t io n o n o t h e r c o r r u p ti o n c a s e s i . e o r e . g t h e c a s e a g a in s t M a jo r
General Lazarus.
B a c k g r o u n d in f o r m a t io n a b o u t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n –
10

in v e s t i g a t o r s f o r a ll c r i m i n a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n s .
B a c k g r o u n d i n fo r m a ti o n a g a i n s t t h e r e g i s tr a ti o n o f e a c h d i s c ip li n a r y
c a s e o r d e p a r t m e n t a l e n q u i r y.
B a c k g r o u n d i n fo r m a ti o n r e g a r d i n g t h e a ll e g e d il l e g a l a p p o i n t m e n t s th a t
w e r e m a d e a t C I w h i c h w e r e m e n t io n e d in t h e n e w s .
B a c k g r o u n d i n f o r m a ti o n w h ic h n e c e s s i ta t e d t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e
c o m m i s s io n b y th e M i n is t e r w h ic h i n v o l v e d L i e u t e n a n t D r a m a t a n d
L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l L e b e y a , L i e u te n a n t G e n e r a l P e t r o s a n d a n y t h i n g
r e l e v a n t t o s h e d s o m e li g h t o n t h e C I c a s e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

20

A n d if I c o u l d j u s t i n te r r u p t y o u

t h e r e . I t i s q u i t e a c o m p r e h e n s iv e e m a i l . B u t t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t y o u
r e fe r r e d

to

now

in c l u d e s

then

matters

h a p p e n in g

within

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e , is th a t r i g h t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
T h e r e s t o f t h e e m a il b y a n d l a r g e

a d d r e s s e s s p e c i fi c r e q u e s ts .

Page 95 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

To in d i v id u a l g e n e r a ls /

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
T h e f i r s t g e n e r a l b e i n g L i e u te n a n t

General Lebeya.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
T h e n e x t g e n e r a l b e i n g L ie u t e n a n t

General Dramat.

10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

F o ll o w e d b y L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l

Mazibuko,

L i e u te n a n t

General

M o l e fe

and

Lieutenant

General

M a s i m o la .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d t h i s p a r t ic u l a r – i f y o u g o b a c k

t o 2 – p a g e 2 7 3 t h i s e m a i l i s a n e m a il t h a t w a s s e n t t o y o u b y
L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l D r a m a t , is t h a t r i g h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d y o u w e r e c a l le d u p o n to a s s i s t

in t h e c o m p il a ti o n o f th is r e p o r t ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
And it is then to be understood that

y o u r a s s is t a n c e w a s r e la t iv e to y o u r i n v o l v e m e n t a s a n i n v e s ti g a to r i n
t h e s e – i n s o m e i f n o t m o s t o f t h e s e m a tt e r s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And accordingly just as with the

Page 96 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
p r e v i o u s c o m m u n ic a ti o n is i t to b e a c c e p t e d t h a t a t le a s t a t th e d a t e o f
t h is e m a il w h ic h i s t h e 1 4 t h M a y 2 0 1 3 th e s e g e n e r a l s b e c a m e a w a r e o f
a l le g a ti o n s w i th i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
We back on page 52.

Is i t c o r r e c t

t h a t y o u c o n ti n u e d c o m m u n ic a ti o n s w i t h t h e A u d it o r G e n e r a l ’s o ff ic e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir I d i d

c o n ti n u e . I k e p t i n c o n ta c t w i t h M s M il le r fr o m t h e o ffi c e o f th e A u d i to r
G e n e r a l a n d o n t h e 2 n d Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 I w a s p r o v i d e d w i th t h e S S A
10

a u d it r e p o r t s f o r t h e fi n a n c i a l y e a r s 2 0 0 4 t o 2 0 1 2 a s p a r t o f th e C I
c r i m i n a l in v e s t i g a t io n .

I n p a r a g r a p h 1 .6 – 1 7 6 . 1 t h e S A P S C I

m a n a g e m e n t r e s p o n s e s to t h e a u d it q u e r i e s r a i s e d b y t h e A u d it o r
G e n e r a l in 2 0 1 2 a r e th a t t h e y s t a t e d t h a t t h e y c a n n o t c o m m e n t a s t h e
m a t t e r s a r e b e i n g in v e s ti g a t e d b y t h e D P C I a n d a s s u c h s u b - j u d ic e .
T h e r e s p o n s e s a r e in m y v i e w a r e d is i n g e n u o u s a s m a n a g e m e n t k n e w
t h a t a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n in t o th e tr a n s a c ti o n s i n q u e s ti o n c o u l d n o t
c o n ti n u e d u e t o th e l a c k o f t h e c o o p e r a t i o n th a t – t h a t w e f a c e d a n d
fr o m t h e v e r y m a n a g e m e n t – a n d f r o m t h e v e r y m a n a g e m e n t h i d in g
b e h in d t h e D P C I i n v e s t ig a ti o n . A c o p y o f t h a t r e p o r t 2 0 1 2 is a t t a c h e d
20

as KDR26.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

C h a ir a c o p y o f t h is r e p o r t w h ic h h a s

b e e n d e c l a s s i fi e d a p p e a r s a t p a g e 2 7 7 . I n e e d to a l e r t C h a ir t o t h e fa c t
t h a t t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n a s p e c ts i n t h i s r e p o r t w h i c h h a v e b e e n r e d a c t e d
b e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t s p e c i fi c a ll y r e l a t e to t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h i s w i t n e s s .
A n d th a t th e p u r p o s e o f th is e v id e n c e i s r e a ll y to t a l k t o t h e k n o w l e d g e

Page 97 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
o f th e – o f t h is p a r t ic u l a r r e p o r t .
d e c l a s s i fy d o c u m e n t s .

W e n o w t u r n t o y o u r e ffo r t s t o

T h r o u g h y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s d i d y o u e s t a b li s h

a n y p a t te r n o f i n t e r f e r e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d h o w w o u l d y o u d e s c r ib e th a t

pattern?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir fr o m m y e x p e r ie n c e i n t h i s

s p e c i f ic i n v e s ti g a t i o n I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t t h e c r i m in a l – th is C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h e r e h a s b e e n a p a tt e r n o f in t e r f e r e n c e b y
10

G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d A d v o c a te M r w e b i . T h e a ll e g a t io n s o f c r i m in a l – o f
a l le g e d

c r i m i n a l it y

within

Crime

I n t e l li g e n c e

that

have

been

in v e s t i g a t e d t h u s f a r d o n o t i n c l u d e i n f o r m a t io n r e g a r d in g a n y p r o je c t
d e t a i l w h i c h c o u l d je o p a r d is e s a i d p r o j e c ts .

I t d e a ls m a i n l y w i t h t h e

fr a u d u l e n t p r o c u r e m e n t o f a s s e ts v ia t h e S S A a n d th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f
f a m ily a n d – o r f a m il y m e m b e r s a s a g e n ts w i t h o u t t h e m h a v in g t h e
r e q u ir e d s k il ls t o b e a p p o i n t e d i n t h e fi r s t p la c e . T h i s in v e s t i g a t io n is
li m i te d to a f e w i n d iv id u a l s w h o f o r m p a r t o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s
and

th e

management

w i th in

Crime

I n t e ll i g e n c e .

On

numerous

o c c a s i o n s – n u m e r o u s o c c a s i o n s I h a v e a s k e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t to
20

s e c u r e t h e C I m a n a g e m e n t – t o s e c u r e C I m a n a g e m e n ts c o o p e r a t io n
fir s t i n – fir s t ly m a k i n g C I m e m b e r s a v a i l a b l e t o a s s is t w i t h t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n a n d s e c o n d l y t o e n s u r e t h a t d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f t h e
r e q u ir e d d o c u m e n t s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If y o u c a n p a u s e th e r e t h e n . T h e r e

w e r e t w o ty p e s o f c o o p e r a t io n th a t y o u r e q u ir e d .

Page 98 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
1 . Wa s th e c o o p e r a ti o n th a t y o u r e q u ir e d fr o m C r i m e In t e lli g e n c e
m e m b e r s t o a s s is t y o u in t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a n d
2 . I t w a s a c tu a l d o c u m e n t s t h a t y o u n e e d e d fo r p u r p o s e s o f t h e –
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a s w e ll .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t is – t h a t is tr u e C h a ir.
A n d s u c h d o c u m e n ts is t o te ll t o t h e

e v i d e n c e y o u p r e s e n te d y e s t e r d a y w a s n o t o n ly d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u
w e r e p r o v i d e d b y G e n e r a l H a n k e l b u t a l s o d o c u m e n t s th a t y o u h a d
r e q u e s t e d fr o m t h e p o l ic e i n a d e c l a s s i f ie d fo r m a t.
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

J a i t is a ls o d o c u m e n t s t h a t I a l s o

r e q u e s t e d fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e i n a d e c l a s s i f ie d f o r m a t .

In o t h e r

w o r d s d o c u m e n t s t h a t I i d e n ti f ie d th a t is n e e d e d in r e s p e c t o f t h e o t h e r
a l le g a ti o n s w h i c h I w a s a ls o in v e s ti g a t i n g a n d – a n d I a s k e d f o r t h e m i n
t h e d e c l a s s i fi e d f a s h io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So when you asked General Dramat

t o a s s i s t y o u le t u s g o th r o u g h t h e e ff o r t s t h a t y o u m a d e i n tr y i n g t o
d e c l a s s i fy th e s e d o c u m e n ts . W h e n y o u a s k e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o a s s is t
you what happened on the 7th March 2013?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a ir o n th e 7 t h M a r c h o f 2 0 1 3

General Dramat forwarded a request for assistance to the previous
a c ti n g – p r e v i o u s a c ti n g d iv is i o n a l c o m m i s s i o n e r o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e
General Ngcobo.

E v e n th o u g h th is r e q u e s t d i d n o t d e a l w i t h t h e

d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f c la s s if i e d d o c u m e n ts it r e q u e s t e d th e a s s is t a n c e o f
members.

In s u p p o r t I a t t a c h a c o p y o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t’s l e t t e r a s

Annexure KDR27.

Page 99 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 3 2 5

please?
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

3 2 5 C h a ir. I s t h a t t h e l e t te r th a t y o u

r e fe r t o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d is i t c o r r e c t t h a t in t h is

p a r a g r a p h 2 o f t h is le t t e r y o u in f o r m – it is r e c o r d e d th a t :
“We
10

are making a request for

th e g r a n t i n g

of

p e r m is s io n to in t e r v i e w m e m b e r s w i th in th e C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e

d i v is i o n

with

the

v ie w

of

o b ta i n i n g

a ffi d a v i ts fr o m t h e m . ”
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

W h a t s u b s e q u e n t ly h a p p e n e d ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o th i n g C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e r e n o r e s p o n s e t o t h e l e tt e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir th e r e m i g h t h a v e b e e n a

r e s p o n s e – I a m s u r e th e r e i s r e s p o n s e – I t h i n k i t is j u s t a li t tl e b i t
f u r th e r b u t G e n e r a l N g c o b o d id r e s p o n d t o t h e l e tt e r w h e r e h e s e ts o u t
20

w h a t h is p r o b l e ms a r e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

But before that happened there was

a n a d d i ti o n a l l e tt e r a l s o s e n t i n M a r c h 2 0 1 3 .

If y o u c a n g o b a c k t o

p a g e 5 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h o p r e p a r e d t h e le t t e r t h a t w a s

Page 100 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
s e n t o u t i n M a r c h – a l s o in M a r c h o f 2 0 1 3 ? Mr R o e l o f s e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I a m l o o k in g a t t h e

document it was prepared by General Dramat.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t th e n th a t

appears at page 328 of your bundle?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir y e s b u t I a m a c t u a ll y

r e fe r r i n g t o t h e p r e v io u s – t h e p r e v io u s l e tt e r w h ic h is th e r e q u e s t f o r
a s s is t a n c e .

T h e s e c o n d le t t e r w o u ld b e t h e – a s e t t in g o u t o f t h e

d o c u m e n ts t h a t I n e e d e d fo r d e c la s s i f ic a ti o n p u r p o s e s .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I a m n o t f o ll o w i n g y o u M r R o e lo f s e .

Yo u s e n t a l e t te r o r r a th e r a le t t e r w a s s e n t o n t h e 7 t h M a r c h 2 0 1 3
t h r o u g h t h e o ff ic e o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t w h ic h i s t h e l e tt e r t h a t y o u
r e fe r r e d t o e a r l i e r a t p a g e 3 2 5 , is t h a t r ig h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t .
A n d th a t p a r ti c u la r l e t t e r r e q u e s t e d

t h e a s s is t a n c e o f C I m e m b e r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

But if I go to paragraph 178.2 I –

in m y M a r c h 2 0 1 3 I p r e p a r e d –
“ I p r e p a r e d a d r a f t l e tt e r to B r i g a d ie r M o o d le y t h e
t h e n a c t i n g N a t io n a l H e a d o f t h e A n t i- C o r r u p t io n
w h ic h w o u l d b e m y – w h ic h w o u ld b e m y d ir e c t b o s s
o r my d ir e c t h e a d i n t e r m s o f w h i c h o ffi c e I w o r k e d
r e g a r d in g

th e

d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n

Page 101 of 233

of

c l a s s i f ie d

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d o c u m e n ts .

I c a n n o t r e c a l l t h e e x a c t d a te o f t h e

le t t e r w h ic h I a m in f o r m e d a s – o f t h e l e t t e r w h i c h I
am

i n fo r m e d

was

sent

by

General

–

Br i g a d i e r

M o o d l e y to G e n e r a l D r a m a t. A c o p y o f m y d r a f t le t t e r
is a t t a c h e d a s K R D 2 8 w h ic h I n o w r e f e r to ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And so if we go to page 328.

CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

328.

Is th is t h e le t t e r t h a t y o u

p r e p a r e d M r R o e lo fs e ?
10

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

Th a t is th e l e t t e r th a t I p r e p a r e d ,

t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h is w a s t h e l e t te r th a t y o u

p r e p a r e d f o r y o u r s e n i o r Br ig a d i e r M o o d l e y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d i t is th e s a m e l e t t e r th a t w a s

s e n t o n to t h e o ffi c e o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t a s y o u w e r e i n fo r m e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d p a r a g r a p h 3 o f t h i s l e tt e r r e a d s :

“ I t is r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r
20

d e c l a s s i fy t h e f o l lo w i n g d o c u m e n ts lis t e d b e l o w i n
o r d e r t o f a c i li t a te t h e u s e o f th e s e d o c u m e n ts in
o p e n c o u r t in t h e m a t t e r o f S t a t e v e r s u s R N M d l u l i
and H J Barnard in respect of the – in respect of
S il v e r t o n c a s e 1 5 5 / 0 7 /2 0 11 . ”
Paragaph 4.

Page 102 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
“ T h e d o c u m e n ts i n q u e s t i o n w e r e a ll e g e d ly c r e a t e d
t o fa c i li t a t e t h e c o m m i t ti n g o f a n o ff e n c e / o ffe n c e s
a n d p r e s e n t e d f a c ts to i n t e r n a l a u d i t o r s a n d th e
A u d i t o r G e n e r a l w h ic h w e r e n o t e n ti r e ly a c c u r a t e .
H a d t h e y k n e w t h e tr u e n a t u r e o f th e e x p e n d it u r e
t h e y w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b l e to id e n ti fy t h e o ff e n c e s . ”
If one turns the page paragraph 6 informs:
“ T h a t t h e a u t h o r s c a n n o t b e a p p r o a c h e d s in c e s o m e
a r e i m p lic a t e d i n t h is m a t te r. A n d a s fa r a s c o u l d b e
10

e s t a b li s h e d t h e a u t h o r i ty t o c l a s s i fy o r d e c la s s i fy
d o c u m e n ts h a s n o t b e e n d e l e g a t e d t o a n o t h e r o ff ic ia l
b e l o w t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. ”
A n d i t e n d s o ff a t p a r a g r a p h 8 w h ic h i n f o r m s t h a t :
“ I t is a l s o r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h e s e d o c u m e n t s b e
d e c l a s s i fi e d in l i g h t th e r e o f th a t t h e a c c u s e d w h o
w e r e e m p l o y e e s o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e d o n o t u s e t h e
g r o u n d s o f c l a s s if i e d in f o r m a ti o n a s a l in e o f d e fe n c e
in o p e n c o u r t . ”

20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A s w e w i ll d is - a s y o u r e v i d e n c e

u n f o l d s w a s t h e d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n t s o r r a th e r th e a b s e n c e o f
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n u s e d a s a li n e o f d e f e n c e i n c o u r t s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Chair I know…

C H A I R P E R S O N : Te ll m e th e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r o f P o lic e w o u l d h e

Page 103 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
n o t h a v e t h e f in a l a u t h o r i ty w it h in C P S t o o v e r r id e a n y b o d y ’s d e c is io n
r e l a ti n g t o a r e f u s a l t o d e c l a s s if y d o c u m e n ts i n c lu d in g d o c u m e n ts h e l d
b y C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir h e h a s t h a t a u t h o r i t y.

In

f a c t t h e a u t h o r i ty l i e s w i th h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a u t h o r it y li e s w it h h i m ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o m u s t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e w h e n y o u s a y

y o u h a v e r e c e iv e d n o c o o p e r a t i o n w i th r e g a r d to t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f
10

c e r t a i n d o c u m e n ts t o i n c l u d e t h a t e v e n h e h a s n o t c o o p e r a t e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

In this

r e g a r d I th in k i t w a s s h e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a t th a t t i m e i t w a s s h e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is – G e n e r a l P h i y e g a .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

As far as I can remember Chair I

m i g h t b e w r o n g w i t h th e d a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

But as far as I can remember yes.

B u t w i t h r e g a r d t o th e c u r r e n t N a t io n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r h a v e a t te m p t s b e e n m a d e a n d h a v e t h e y b e e n s u c c e s s f u l
t o g e t h i m to o v e r r i d e a n y p r e v i o u s r e f u s a l t o d e c la s s i fy in f o r m a t io n –
d o c u m e n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a t te m p t s h a v e b e e n m a d e

n o d e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n h a s t a k e n p l a c e .

Page 104 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s t a k e n p l a c e . Ye s . H a s th e r e b e e n r e s p o n s e s t o
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n t h i s r e g a r d o r t h e r e s i m p ly h a s b e e n n o r e s p o n s e t o
r e q u e s ts r e s e n t t h e r e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t i s j u s t n o r e s p o n s e C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: No response?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

No response.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a i r I n o t e th e ti m e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d a s k i f i t is a c o n v e n i e n t ti m e t o

have a long adjournment?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

We are going to adjourn.

H o w i s i t lo o k in g i n

t e r m s o f o u r ti m e ? I n t e r m s o f fi n is h i n g – t h e r e i s s ti ll a s u p p l e m e n t a r y
a ffi d a v i t t o b e d e a l t w i t h a s w e l l o r n o t?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is j u s t th is o n e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

W e c u r r e n t ly o n p a g e 5 3 o f a 7 2

p a g e a ff id a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e l e f t w i th a b o u t 1 7 p a g e s – o r a b o u t 2 0 p a g e s .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay do you…
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

19.

D o y o u h a v e a n i d e a h o w l o n g s in c e w e s t a r t e d w e

m i g h t b e t a k in g to d o 2 0 p a g e s ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

It is h a r d t o e s ti m a t e a t t h i s s t a g e .

Page 105 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D e p e n d s o n th e q u e s t io n s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y n o I j u s t th o u g h t y o u m ig h t b e a b l e t o s a y
w h e t h e r y o u t h i n k w e m ig h t b e a b l e to f in is h b y f o u r o ’ c l o c k o r n o t b u t i t
is o k a y w e w il l c o m e b a c k a n d w e w i ll c o n t in u e a n d s e e h o w fa r w e g o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

W e w o u l d r e a l ly a p p r e c i a t e t o f in is h

w i t h t h is w i t n e s s to d a y b e a r in g i n th e s c h e d u l e t o m o r r o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a l e t u s d o w h a t w e c a n a n d w e w i ll s e e w h a t w e c a n
– w h a t is p o s s ib ly a t f o u r a s y o u m a y h a v e g a th e r e d I a m n o t t o o w e l l
10

s o w e w i ll s e e h o w – h o w t h i n g s g o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir.

W e w i ll t a k e t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w il l

r e s u m e a t f iv e p a s t tw o . W e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s p r o c e e d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h r o u g h y o u C h a ir w o u l d y o u li k e m e
t o a d d r e s s y o u o n t h e q u e r i e s y o u r a i s e d e a r l i e r o n t h e j u d g m e n ts o r
s h o u l d I d o s o la t e r ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n d o i t n o w o r l a te r. W h ic h o n e s u i ts y o u ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e c o u l d a d d r e s s i t n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir I m u s t a d m i t th a t t h i s m a y n o t
b e a n e x h a u s t iv e li s t o f a l l t h e fi n d i n g s b u t I d i d w h a t I c o u l d in th e
a d j o u r n m e n t t o id e n ti fy t h e f in d i n g s w i th i n t h e H i g h C o u r t j u d g m e n t a s

Page 106 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
w i t h t h e S C A t o t h e e x t e n t th a t t h i s p a r t i c u l a r w i tn e s s c a n t a lk t o i t t a lk t o i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

It w i ll n o t h e l p i f th e r e m a y b e a c h a n c e t h e r e a r e

o th e r s t h a t y o u m i g h t d is c o v e r l a te r a r e i m p o r t a n t . S o t h e i d e a is t h a t
w e s h o u l d b e a b l e t o s e e w h e r e th e g a p s a r e w h e r e th e w i tn e s s c a n
c o m e in .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n p l e a fi n d i n g s
a n d c e r t a i n p o i n ts t h a t I h a v e b e e n a b l e to h i g h l ig h t w h ic h h a s b e e n
r e l e v a n t t o th e e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n l e d s o fa r c e r t a in ly s o .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a t h a t - t h a t is - th a t is a ll t h a t w e n e e d n a m e l y
fi n d i n g s i n th e j u d g m e n t t h a t a r e r e le v a n t t o w h a t w e a r e lo o k in g a t …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n s o t h a t h e c a n g iv e s o m e c o n te x t i f t h e r e i s
a n e e d f o r c o n t e x t o r fil l i n g a p s t h a t …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e li ti g a ti o n m i g h t n o t h a v e d e a l t w i t h .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: What we - what I …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n o th e r w o r d s t h e d i ffi c u l ty w o u l d b e i f y o u h a v e

20

n o t h a d t i m e t o g o t h r o u g h th e w h o le j u d g m e n t a n d y o u m ig h t d i s c o v e r
la t e r t h a t t h e r e a r e o th e r f i n d in g s t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t a n d h e is g o n e b y
t h e n a n d t h e n w e m ig h t n e e d h i m l a te r. S o th a t i s - t h a t is t h e id e a b u t
if y o u a r e s a tis f ie d th a t t h e f i n d in g s t h a t y o u h a v e id e n ti fi e d a r e a l l
t h o s e t h a t a r e r e l e v a n t f o r p u r p o s e s o f w h a t w e a r e lo o k i n g a t .
fi n e .

Page 107 of 233

I t is

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C e r t a i n l y C h a ir.

As a way forward

c o u l d I s u g g e s t s u b je c t t o y o u r d ir e c ti o n o f c o u r s e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a t w e a d d r e s s s u c h fi n d i n g s w h ic h
h a v e b e e n i d e n t i fi e d a s q u i t e k e y a s t o th e e v i d e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

To t h is p a r t ic u l a r w i tn e s s ’ e v id e n c e

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d to t h e e x t e n t t h a t I - t h a t a n y

a d d it i o n a l fi n d i n g s a r e s o u g h t t o w h ic h a r e s p o n s e i s s o u g h t fr o m h i m i f
h e c o u ld t h e n p r o v i d e u s w i th a n a ffi d a v i t - a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t t o
t h a t e ffe c t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I t h i n k w h a t w e c a n d o is d o w h a t y o u c a n a n d

t h e n l a te r o n l e t m e k n o w w h e th e r th e r e a r e o th e r s t h a t y o u h a d n o t
p ic k e d u p w h ic h y o u w o u l d h a v e s in c e p ic k e d u p a n d th e n w e w i ll s e e
w h e t h e r t h e b e s t t h in g w o u ld b e fo r h i m t o c o m e b a c k o r t o j u s t p r o v id e
a n a ffi d a v it …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I t h i n k g o i n g fo r w a r d a n d d o s h a r e i t w i th o t h e r

m e m b e r s o f t h e le g a l te a m . W h e n e v e r i n r e g a r d t o a n y w i t n e s s th e r e is
a j u d g m e n t t h a t i s t h e r e t h a t i s a v a il a b l e - t h a t is r e l e v a n t .

Th e b e s t

w a y i s th a t t h e r e b e a n i d e n ti f ic a ti o n o f f i n d i n g s o r c o n c l u s io n s i n t h e
ju d g m e n t th a t a r e r e le v a n t a n d th o s e c a n b e i d e n t i fi e d a n d r e a d o u t
w i t h o u t a n y r e f e r e n c e r e a l ly to t h e w it n e s s .

Page 108 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
E x c e p t w h e r e th e r e is a fi n d i n g w h e r e t h e w i t n e s s is a s k e d t o
g iv e c o n t e x t o r w h e r e th e r e a r e c e r ta i n g a p s n a m e ly m a tt e r s t h a t w e r e
n o t d e a l t w i t h in t h e ju d g m e n t w h ic h th e w i t n e s s c a n f ill b y w a y o f
e v i d e n c e . S o t h a t w e d o n o t n e e d t o g o t h r o u g h th e w it n e s s w i t h th e
w h o le ju d g m e n t o r fi n d i n g s th a t w e r e m a d e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir, C h a ir w il l r e c a ll t h a t t h e H i g h

C o u r t j u d g m e n t w h i c h w a s h a n d e d d o w n b y J u s ti c e M u r p h y i n F r e e d o m
10

U n d e r La w v s t h e N D P P o n 2 3 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 3 w a s a j u d g m e n t t h a t
c o n c e r n e d th e r e v i e w a p p l ic a t i o n in r e l a ti o n t o fo u r d e c is i o n s . T h e f o u r
d e c is i o n s f ir s t - th e fir s t d e c i s i o n o f th o s e fo u r i s t h e d e c is io n ta k e n b y
A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i o n 5 D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 t o w i t h d r a w t h e fr a u d a n d
c o r r u p ti o n c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d l u l i .
T h e s e c o n d d e c is io n w a s t h a t o f A d v o c a te C h a u k e o f t h e
N D P P ’s O ff ic e o n 1 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 to w i th d r a w t h e m u r d e r a n d r e la t e d
c h a r g e s s o m e w h a t i n t h e r e g io n o f 1 7 c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d lu li
a n d t h e t h ir d d e c is i o n o r r a t h e r t h e th ir d a n d fo u r t h d e c i s i o n s w e r e b o t h
taken

20

by

the

A c ti n g

C o m m i s s io n e r

at

the

ti m e

who

was

G e n e r a l M k h w a n a z i.
The

f ir s t

decision

being

ta k e n

on

29 February 2012

to

w i t h d r a w t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e e d i n g s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d t h e
second

d e c is i o n

of

General Mkhwanazi

was

on

the

27th

or

2 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 2 to r e i n s t a te G e n e r a l M d l u l i a s th e H e a d o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e w i th in S A P S .

Page 109 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e i n s t a te ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : To r e in s t a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : G e n e r a l M d lu li a s t h e H e a d o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e w i t h i n S A P S .

In a d d i t io n t o t h a t th e r e w e r e a d d it i o n a l

o r d e r s th a t w a s s o u g h t b u t - a n d t h o s e p a r ti c u la r o r d e r s w e r e s o u g h t to
d ir e c t t h e r e i n s t it u ti o n o f th e c r i m i n a l a n d d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s
w i t h o u t a n y f u r t h e r d e l a y.
H a v i n g s a i d t h a t t h o s e p a r t ic u l a r o r d e r s w e r e o v e r t u r n e d b y
10

t h e S C A a n d s o w i ll n o t n e c e s s a r il y b e a d d r e s s e d a n d t h e s e o r d e r s
w e r e s o u g h t i n a d d it i o n t o a n c i ll a r y o r d e r s o f c o s ts a n d th e li k e s o u g h t .
M r R o e l o fs e y o u a r e a w a r e o f th e s e j u d g m e n t s . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d o f th o s e f o u r d e c is i o n s t h a t I

h a v e a l l u d e d t o w h ic h o f t h o s e f o u r d e c i s io n s d o y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l
e x p e r i e n c e a b o u t - p e r s o n a l e x p e r i e n c e o f ? S o r r y.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, I …
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m e a n w h ic h - w h ic h o n e s h e h a s p e r s o n a l

knowledge of?
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, I h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e

r e g a r d in g b o t h th e Vo s lo o r u s m a t t e r w h ic h i s th e M d lu li m a t t e r - m u r d e r
m a t t e r a s w e ll a s th e M d lu li / B a r n a r d m a t te r w h i c h is t h e c r i m i n a l ( c l e a r i n g o f t h r o a t) s o r r y - w h i c h i s t h e c r i mi n a l p r o c e e d i n g s . I d o n o t
h a v e a n y d ir e c t - I d i d n o t h a v e a n y d i r e c t - d ir e c t k n o w l e d g e r e g a r d i n g

Page 110 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h e - t h e d i s c i p li n a r y m a t te r s . I w a s n o t i n v o l v e d in t h a t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i n t h a t r e g a r d y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g

t o t h e tw o d e c is io n s o f G e n e r a l M k h w a n a z i . T h e o n e b e i n g t o w it h d r a w
t h e d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s . Th e o t h e r to r e i n s t a te G e n e r a l M d l u li .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y.

B e f o r e w e d e a l w it h t h e fir s t

d e c is i o n a n d t h a t i s o f A d v o c a te - A d v o c a t e M r w e b i I w o u l d ju s t l ik e t o
a l e r t J u d g e to o n e p o i n t a n d t h a t w a s a c o n c e s s io n th a t w a s m a d e o n
the papers by General Mdluli.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t I th o u g h t w h a t y o u s a i d y o u

w e r e g o i n g t o d o w a s t o te ll m e w h a t t h e fi n d i n g s w e r e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d i d I m is u n d e r s ta n d ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t h in k I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d .

C h a ir if I c o u l d - y o u c o u l d ju s t b e a r w i t h m e t h e n .

One concession

t h a t I th in k is i m p o r ta n t t o b r in g y o u r a tt e n ti o n to C h a i r i s t h a t a t
p a r a g r a p h 6 7 o f th e j u d g m e n t i t is m e n t i o n e d t h a t :
“General

-

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i

had

p r o v id e d

an

a ffi d a v i t o n t h e - t h e d a y b e fo r e t h e m a tt e r w a s
20

e n r o ll e d a n d a s p a r t o f - o f h is s u p p l e m e n t a r y
a ffi d a v i t h e w a s p r e p a r e d t o s h a r e w i th t h e c o u r t
t h e f a c t t h a t t h e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u t h o r i ty h a s
b e e n e x p e r i e n c e - h a s e x p e r i e n c e d c h a l le n g e s i n
r e l a ti o n t o t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n ts . ”
I b r in g t h a t s p e c if ic a l ly t o J u d g e ’s a t te n t io n in v ie w o f t h e

Page 111 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
e v i d e n c e r e l a ti n g t o d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n .

T h e fi n d i n g s th e n a r e s u c h t h a t

the court found:
“ A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i t o o k t h e d e c is i o n t o w i t h d r a w t h e
charges

against

General Mdluli

without

the

c o n c u r r e n c e o f A d v o c a te M z i n y a t h i a n d d e c i d e d t o
d is c o n t in u e t h e p r o s e c u t io n . I n t h e r e s u lt t h e c o u r t
f o u n d th a t t h e d e c is i o n f a il e d t o b e s e t a s i d e
ir r e s p e c t iv e

of

its

a d m i n is tr a t iv e o r n o t .

c a t e g o r is a ti o n

as

-

as

T h i s d e c i s i o n w a s f o u n d to

b e le g a l f o r n o t c o m p ly i n g w i th t h e d u ty t o c o n s u l t

10

t h e D P P. ”
T h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l in fa c t c o n f ir m e d t h is i n
p a r a g r a p h s 4 1 t o 4 2 o f t h e j u d g m e n t w h e r e w i t h y o u r le a v e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I

think

it

is

much

cleaner

if

you

s ta r t

w i th

J u d g e M u r p h y ’s j u d g m e n t a n d s a y h e r e a r e t h e f in d in g s o r c o n c l u s io n s
t h a t I h a v e i d e n ti f ie d a s r e l e v a n t o n e , tw o , t h r e e , f o u r a n d t h e n y o u g o
t o th e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l j u d g m e n t a n d s a y h e r e a r e t h e fi n d i n g s
o r c o n c l u s io n s t h a t I h a v e i d e n t if i e d a s r e l e v a n t o n e , tw o , th r e e , f o u r
a n d t h e n y o u c a n h ig h l i g h t w h e r e m a y b e t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l
20

d i d n o t a g r e e w i th t h e H ig h C o u r t b u t i t i s c l e a n - i t i s m u c h c l e a n e r
t h a t w a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n d e e d C h a ir. T h e - t h e n e x t fi n d i n g
t h e n i s a t p a r a g r a p h 7 0 o f t h e j u d g m e n t w h e r e t h e c o u r t f o u n d t h a t:
“ T h e fr a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n c h a r g e s w e r e fo r m a l ly
and

p r o v is io n a l ly

w i th d r a w n

in

Page 112 of 233

the

S p e c i a l is e d

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e s C o u r t o n 1 4 D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 .
The court went so far as to say that Freedom Under
L a w s u b m i t s t h a t a p r o v i s i o n a l w it h d r a w a l w h i c h
has endured for two years may be considered to be
a p e r m a n e n t w i th d r a w a l .

T h e c h a r a c te r i s a ti o n o f

the withdrawal as provisional …”
A s I e x p l a in la t e r.
“ … w o u l d n o t n o r m a lly d e fl e c t fr o m a n y p r o v e n
ill e g a li t y o r ir r a ti o n a li ty o f t h e d e c is i o n . ”
10

CHAIRPERSON:

D id it m a k e - d i d i t m a k e f in d in g s o r c o n c l u s io n -

r e a c h a n y c o n c l u s i o n s a b o u t A d v o c a te M r w e b i ’s b a s is f o r h is d e c is i o n ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

Remember he said in correspondence that the

in v e s t i g a t io n h a d t o b e c o n d u c t e d b y In s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l a n d h e s a id
somewhere that on the merits there was - there were no reasonable and
probable

-

there

was

no

reasonable

and

p r o b a b le

cause

for

prosecution.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C e r t a i n l y C h a ir t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t I

w a s a b l e to e s t a b li s h d u r i n g t h e lu n c h b r e a k th e o n e p o i n t i n r e l a t i o n t o
20

t h e I G I i s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 - 7 - 3 o f t h e j u d g m e n t w h i c h in f o r m e d th a t :
“ T h e p u r p o r t e d r e f e r r a l t o t h e I G I w a s e q u a l ly
m is d i r e c t e d .

Th e I G I ’s o v e r s i g h t r o le o v e r t h e

I n t e lli g e n c e a n d C o u n t e r I n t e l li g e n c e S e r v ic e s is
r e s tr ic t e d

to

c o n s ti t u ti o n

m o n i t o r i n g t h e c o m p li a n c e o f t h e
and

other

laws

Page 113 of 233

and

to

receive

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
c o m p la i n t s o f m i s c o n d u c t . A s m e n t i o n e d b y t h e I G I
in

a

le t t e r

of

19 March 2012

to

the

A c ti n g

C o m m i s s i o n e r t h e I G I’s m a n d a te d o e s n o t e x t e n d t o
c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . ”
A n d s o g o e s fu r t h e r to in f o r m t h a t :
“ M r w e b i ’s

d e c is i o n

to

withdraw

the

fr a u d

and

c o r r u p ti o n c h a r g e s b e c a u s e h e a p p a r e n t ly b e l i e v e d
t h e m t o f a l l w i t h i n th e e x c l u s iv e p u r v i e w o f t h e I G I
w a s a c c o r d i n g ly b a s e d o n a m a t e r ia l e r r o r o f l a w.
10

Ye t d e s p i t e b e in g a w a r e o f t h e I G I’s v ie w s a s
a p p e a r s f r o m h is r e a s o n s fo r - f o r d e c is io n d a te d
1 2 J u ly 2 0 1 2

he

ir r a ti o n a lly

adhered

to

h is

p o s i ti o n . ”
T h e - t h e c o u r t g o e s fu r t h e r t o t a l k t o th e s p e c if ic r e a s o n s
w h ic h w e r e a d v a n c e d b y A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i w h e n h e d e c i d e d t o w it h d r a w
t h e c h a r g e s a n d i n s o d o i n g a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 4 i t i n f o r m s th a t :
“ H i s d e c is i o n w a s t h u s e v i d e n tl y b a s e d o n e r r o r s o f
la w a n d f a c t .
c o n s i d e r a ti o n s
20

H e t o o k a c c o u n t o f ir r e l e v a n t
and

ignored

relevant

c o n s i d e r a ti o n s . ”
A t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 5 in t h e m i d d l e o f t h e p a r a g r a p h i t i n f o r m s t h a t:
“ T h e w i t h d r a w a l o f t h e c h a r g e s h e s a i d w a s m e r e ly
p r o v i s i o n a l t o a l lo w f o r fu r t h e r i n v e s ti g a t i o n to ta k e
place and this version was
c o n te m p o r a n e o u s

reasons

a t o d d s w i th

Mrwebi

Page 114 of 233

gave

fo r

the
his

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d e c is i o n a n d th e e v id e n c e o f Br e y t e n b a c h a n d
M z i n y a t h i in t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e e d i n g s . E v e n if
t h e c h a r g e s w e r e s u p p o s e d ly p r o v i n c ia ll y w i t h d r a w n
in c o u r t M r w e b i’s p r o n o u n c e m e n ts a t t h e

ti m e

evinced

stop

an

proceedings

u n e q u iv o c a l
all

i n te n ti o n

t o g e t h e r.

He

to

considered

the

r e fe r r a l to t h e I G I … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w th a t is - t h a t is …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: (Intervenes).
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a n i m p o r t a n t o n e . Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : H e - if I c o u l d s t a r t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g
o f t h a t s e n t e n c e . It s a y s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I - I a m n o t s o i n te r e s t o n t h e r e a s o n s . I a m
ju s t i n te r e s te d o n t h e fi n d i n g s . T h e r e a s o n s o n e c a n r e a d l a te r. J u s t
f o r p u r p o s e s o f s e e i n g w h e r e t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h is w i t n e s s w i ll s ti ll b e
n e c e s s a r y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir.

A p o lo g ie s f o r

t h e i n d u l g e n c e . T h o s e w e r e t h e e x te n t o f t h e - o h a n d ju s t fi n a l ly C h a ir
a t p a g e - a t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 6 i t w a s f o u n d th a t:
20

“ T h e d e c is io n a n d i n s tr u c t io n o f M r w e b i t o w i t h d r a w
t h e f r a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n c h a r g e s m u s t b e s e t a s id e .
It

was

il le g a l ,

ir r a ti o n a l

c o n s i d e r a ti o n s

and

u l ti m a t e ly

u n r e a s o n a b le

so

based

on

material errors
th a t

p r o s e c u t o r c o u l d h a v e t a k e n i t. ”

Page 115 of 233

no

ir r e l e v a n t

o f la w

and

reasonable

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
T h a t w a s t h e e x t e n t o f t h e f i n d i n g s th a t I c o u l d fi n d i n r e s p e c t
of that decision.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D o y o u w is h m e t o d o t h e s a m e i n

r e s p e c t o f th e Vo s lo o r u s d e c i s i o n a s w e l l?
CHAIRPERSON:

I f t h e r e is s o m e th in g d i ff e r e n t t h a t t h e y f o u n d i f y o u

s a y t h e y w e n t a lo n g w i th t h e ju d g m e n t o f t h e H ig h C o u r t e x c e p t i n
regard to A, B, C, D. That should be enough.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir i n f a c t t h e S C A c o n f ir m e d …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
d e c is i o n s

-

fo r

-

fo r

the

The

b a s is

a n d r a ti o n a l f o r

s e tt i n g

aside

of

the

d e c is io n

the
of

A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i b u t i t d id n o t s p e c if ic a l l y a g r e e to s e t ti n g a s id e th e
d e c is i o n t o w it h d r a w th e c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s b u t i t d i d t h a t o ff t h e b a c k o f
a n u n d e r t a k in g b y t h e N D P P …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : To r e in s t it u t e t h e p r o c e e d i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

Th is p a r ti c u l a r w it n e s s h a s in f o r m e d

t h a t h e i s n o t i n a p o s i ti o n to c o m m e n t in r e la t io n t o t h e d is c ip li n a r y t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f d is c i p li n a r y p r o c e e d in g s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A g a in s t R i c h a r d M d l u l i . U n l e s s t h e r e
is a n y t h i n g f u r t h e r t h a t y o u w is h m e t o a d d r e s s y o u o n t h i s I w o u ld lik e
to ask …

Page 116 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: This witness if …
CHAIRPERSON:

No, you can ask the witness.

I j u s t w a n te d y o u t o

a p p r e c ia t e t h a t I d o n o t t h i n k i t is n e c e s s a r y t o t a k e t h e w i tn e s s
through the judgment.

A l l th a t is i m p o r t a n t is t h a t t h e r e is a n

id e n t i fic a t io n o f w h ic h f in d i n g s o r c o n c l u s i o n s w e r e m a d e th a t a r e
r e l e v a n t a n d t h e n t h e w i t n e s s c a n f il l i n i f t h e r e a r e g a p s o r g iv e
c o n te x t . T h a t is a l l.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o y o u - y o u c a n d e c i d e i f th e r e i s a n y t h i n g y o u
w a n t t o a s k h i m in r e l a t i o n t o t h e j u d g m e n ts o r o t h e r w is e y o u c a n m o v e
on.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S p e c i fi c a ll y

in

r e la t io n

to

the

Vo s lo o r u s c a s e w h ic h is t h e d e c is io n b y A d v o c a t e C h a u k e to w i t h d r a w
t h o s e c r i m in a l c h a r g e s .

Is t h e r e a n y t h in g t h a t y o u w is h t o a d d to t h e

c o n te x t o f t h e w it h d r a w a l o f t h o s e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d l u l i
M r R o e l o fs e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I w a s i n - I w a s p r i v y t o t h e
fir s t c h a r g e s h e e t t h e i n d i c t m e n t t h a t w a s h a n d e d t o t h e - th e a c c u s e d 20

( c l e a r i n g o f t h r o a t) e x c u s e m e - b e f o r e t h e m a t t e r w a s p l a c e d o n t h e
High Court roll.

I t w a s a s u b s ta n ti v e c h a r g e s h e e t r e l a ti n g t o a l l t h e

charges.
T h e r e f o r e th e d e c i s i o n a t t h e ti m e i n t h e H ig h C o u r t t o
withdraw the matter was not something that I was - I was informed prior
t o t h a t a n d I t h i n k t h a t A d v o c a t e Va n Z y l - Z a a is Va n Zy l w h o w a s - w h o

Page 117 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
w a s t h e p r o s e c u t o r i n th e m a t te r h e w a s o n ly - h e w a s o n l y a ls o
in f o r m e d o f t h a t - th a t d e c is i o n .
I d o n o t e x a c tly k n o w w h e n b u t t h e s e c o n d d e c is i o n a f t e r t h e
S C A j u d g m e n t w a s s e n t b a c k t o t h e D P P ’s O ff ic e to - f o r t h e m t o d e c i d e
w h ic h c h a r g e s t h e y a r e g o i n g t o p l a c e b a c k o n t h e r o ll o r w h ic h - to m y
k n o w l e d g e a n d in t e r m s o f w h a t A d v o c a t e Va n Z y l t o l d m e t h e c h a r g e
s h e e t c o n t a i n e d e x a c tly th e s a m e c h a r g e s a s th e f ir s t c h a r g e s h e e t
w h ic h in c l u d e d t h e m u r d e r c h a r g e a s w e l l a s t h e a t t e m p t - a t t e m p te d
murder charge.
U l t i m a te ly

10

the

DPP

-

Advocate Chauke

decided

not

to

c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e p r o s e c u ti o n o f th e m u r d e r c h a r g e a s w e l l a s t h e
a tt e m p t e d m u r d e r c h a r g e .

T h a t is a s f a r a s I c a n t a k e i t i n te r ms o f

w h a t I k n o w a b o u t t h o s e t w o p r o s e c u ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t a f t e r t h e S C A ju d g m e n t w h e n h e d e c i d e d n o t

t o c o n ti n u e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I n t e r m s o f
t h o s e t w o - t h e f ir s t t w o c h a r g e s r e la t i n g t o m u r d e r a n d a t t e m p te d
murder …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A l t h o u g h i t w a s i n t h e in d ic t m e n t

o r th e c h a r g e s h e e t t h a t A d v o c a te Va n Zy l p r e p a r e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a id t h o s e w e r e c h a r g e s w h e r e y o u - w h i c h y o u

h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n i n v e s t ig a ti n g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

in v o lv e d in - in t h e Vo s l o o r u s m u r d e r c a s e in v e s t i g a t io n .

Page 118 of 233

I was

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t d id n o t M r C h a u k e o r s o m e b o d y in h is o ffi c e
c o n s u l t y o u b e fo r e t h e y m a d e th e d e c is i o n t o - n o t t o c o n t i n u e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

I

was

c o n s u l te d

by

A d v o c a t e Va n Zy l w h o d r e w u p th e c h a r g e s h e e t a n d t h e - th e f i n a l
c h a r g e s h e e t d i d i n c lu d e th e m u r d e r a n d a t te m p t e d m u r d e r c h a r g e s b u t
w h e n i t w a s s e n t t o A d v o c a te C h a u k e f o r h is fi n a l d e c is io n .

He

w i t h d r e w th e - h e - h e t o o k t h e m u r d e r c h a r g e a s w e l l a s t h e a t t e m p t e d
m u r d e r c h a r g e fr o m t h e c h a r g e s h e e t .
T h a t i s w h y t h e y w e r e o n ly c h a r g e d w i t h t h e o t h e r c h a r g e s
10

a n d n o t t h e m u r d e r a n d th e a t t e m p t e d m u r d e r c h a r g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u e v e r a s k a n y b o d y i n th a t o ffic e w h y - w h y t h e
o th e r c h a r g e s w e r e n o t p u r s u e d i n t h e c h a r g e s h e e t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

F r o m w h a t I h a v e b e e n in f o r m e d

C h a ir th e c h a r g e s w e r e n o t p u r s u e d a s A d v o c a t e C h a u k e t h o u g h t th e r e
w a s n o t e n o u g h e v i d e n c e t o c o n t in u e w i th t h o s e c h a r g e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But these were charges where the High Court had

t h o u g h t th a t th e r e w a s e n o u g h e v id e n c e a n d h a d m a d e a n o r d e r t h a t
t h e y - t h e y s h o u l d b e p u r s u e d . Is i t n o t ? I t is ju s t t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t
of Appeal for whatever reasons it might have given did not want to deal
20

with that.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A s f a r a s I - a s f a r a s I k n o w C h a ir
t h e - th e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l d id n o t w a n t t o b e p r e s c r i p ti v e p r e s c r i p t iv e i n te r m s o f t h e c h a r g e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t n e e d s t o b e r e i n s ti t u te d .

Page 119 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
T h a t is w h y it w a s s e n t b a c k b u t i n te r m s o f th a t w h e n A d v o c a te Va n Zy l
d e a lt w i t h t h e c h a r g e s h e e t th e s e c o n d ti m e r o u n d .

He - the charge

s h e e t r e a d e x a c tly t h e s a m e b e c a u s e t h e f a c ts w e r e e x a c tly t h e s a m e
a n d b a s e d o n t h a t t h a t w a s g iv e n to A d v o c a te C h a u k e a n d th e n a
d e c is i o n w a s m a d e t o w i th - t o - t o n o t in c l u d e th o s e t w o c h a r g e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Fr o m y o u r s i d e a s th e i n v e s ti g a to r y o u - y o u w e r e

s a ti s f i e d t h a t t h e r e w a s e n o u g h e v i d e n c e t o c o v e r ( i n te r v e n e s ) t h o s e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir a s t h e - a s t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r I
w a s - I w a s s a t is fi e d b e c a u s e th e w h o l e - t h e i n c id e n t t o o k - i t is a - i t
10

is a - i t i s v a r i o u s in c i d e n t s th a t t o o k p l a c e o v e r a p e r i o d o f t i m e . A
p e r i o d o f s ix m o n th s t o a y e a r.

S o t h e y a l l f o l lo w e d in t o e a c h o t h e r.

S o i t is c i r c u ms t a n ti a l e v id e n c e t h a t f o l l o w in t o e a c h o t h e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d a s I s a i d th e fa c t s d i d n o t

c h a n g e fr o m th e f ir s t i n d ic t m e n t t o t h e s e c o n d i n d ic t m e n t a n d - a n d I
a m n o t t a l k i n g a b o u t m y s e l f n o w. A s - i f A d v o c a te Va n Zy l w a s a n S C i n
- in his own right …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

I t h i n k th e r e i s e n o u g h c h a r g e s

a ft e r g o in g th r o u g h t h e - th e c r i mi n a l c a s e d o c k e t . T h e n t o m e t h a t i s
r a th e r il lu m i n a t i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h a t is - I m e a n o f c o u r s e d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e c o u ld
h a v e d i ff e r e n t v i e w s a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e r e is e n o u g h e v id e n c e i n
p a r t ic u l a r c a s e a n d t h e D P P h a s t h e - y o u k n o w - t h e p o w e r to d e c id e
w h a t c h a r g e s t o i n c l u d e o r n o t t o i n c lu d e b u t fr o m w h a t I h a v e b e e n

Page 120 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t o l d i t a p p e a r s t h a t t h e H ig h C o u r t h a d c o n c l u d e d t h a t t h o s e c h a r g e s
should be pursued.
I t is ju s t t h a t t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l t h o u g h t t h a t a s I
u n d e r s t a n d i t b e c a u s e o f s e p a r a ti o n o f p o w e r s i t s h o u l d n o t g o t h a t f a r
a n d l e a v e i t t o th e - t o t h e D P P. S o i f y o u h a v e a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e y o u
s a y A d v o c a te Va n Zy l i s - i s s e n i o r c o u n s e l a n d s o h e th o u g h t t h e r e
was enough and the High Court Judge thought there was enough and
you thought there was enough and you thought it - there was enough as
a n i n v e s ti g a to r a s w e ll . Th a t - t h a t i s th e - t h e b a c k g r o u n d . T h a t is t h e
10

c o n te x t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is t h e c o n te x t i n t e r m s o f

what I am saying …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I d o a g r e e i t is th e p r e r o g a tiv e o f
the DPP …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : To m a k e th e d e c is i o n a s t o w h a t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Needs to be charged and so on,

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n o n e q u e s t io n t h e r e w a s t h e
- t h e m e e ti n g th a t w a s h a d b e tw e e n A d v o c a te N o m g c o b o J ib a a n d - a n d

Page 121 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
n o w I a m t a k i n g y o u a li t tl e b a c k n o w - b u t t h e m e e t in g th a t w a s h e l d
b e t w e e n A d v o c a t e N o m g c o b o J i b a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t a t w h ic h t h e
m a t t e r s w e r e “ s u ff ic i e n tl y r e s o lv e d ” .
O u ts i d e o f t h e le t t e r th a t y o u s e n t to A d v o c a te F e r r e i r a
f o ll o w i n g y o u r k n o w l e d g e o f t h a t m e e ti n g w h ic h t h e n c a l le d t o g e t
c la r i ty o n th e w a y fo r w a r d h a v e y o u h a d s i g h t o f a n y l e tt e r, d o c u m e n t o r
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b y A d v o c a t e J ib a o n h e r p o s it i o n i n r e l a t i o n to th e
w i t h d r a w a l o f c h a r g e s a g a in s t A d v o c a t e - a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d lu li ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

C h a i r d u r in g t h is in v e s ti g a t io n I

h a v e n o t s e e n a n y d o c u m e n t s i g n e d b y A d v o c a t e J i b a r e la t in g to t h e
s p e c i f ic i s s u e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y.

Thank you.

We are now on

p a g e 5 3 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t w h e r e y o u a r e g iv i n g e v id e n c e t o t h e C h a ir
a b o u t y o u r a t t e m p ts t o d e c la s s i f y d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e r e i m p o r t a n t f o r
y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n s a n d a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h a t p a g e y o u w e r e i n fo r m e d
t h a t o n 1 2 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 G e n e r a l N g c o b o w r o t e t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t in
r e s p o n s e t o a c o m m u n ic a ti o n h e r e c e iv e d .
C a n w e t a k e y o u t o A n n e x u r e 2 9 a n d in p a r t - w h ic h is f o u n d
a t p a g e 3 - 3 - 6 ? Yo u w ill r e c a ll t h a t th is w a s in r e s p o n s e to a le t t e r b y
20

G e n e r a l D r a m a t r e q u e s t in g a s s is t a n c e fr o m G e n e r a l N g c o b o i n r e l a ti o n
t o t h e d e c la s s i f ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts w h ic h w a s s e n t o n 7 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t i s t h e e s s e n c e o f th e r e s p o n s e
o f G e n e r a l - M a jo r G e n e r a l N g c o b o i n t h i s le t t e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r i t - it r e l a t e s t o a l e tt e r

Page 122 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
dated 7 March - of March 2013 by General Dramat and paragraph 2
s t a te s t h e f o ll o w i n g :
“ S i n c e t h e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n in
t h is

d iv is i o n

by

various

ta s k

t e a ms

and

D ir e c t o r a te o f P r i o r i ty C r i m e In v e s ti g a t i o n .

the
T h is

d iv is io n h a s e x p e r i e n c e d a n u m b e r o f le a k a g e s o f
c la s s if i e d
resulted

i n f o r m a t io n
in

th e

to

th e

m e d ia

exposure

of

w h ic h

has

i n t e ll i g e n c e

-

in t e l li g e n c e a s s e ts a n d o p e r a ti o n a l m e t h o d o l o g y o f
10

t h e - o f t h e d i v is io n .

Th e r e f o r e t h e o ffi c e is

c u r r e n tly c o n s u l ti n g t h e O ff ic e o f t h e N a t i o n a l
Commissioner on - on the request.”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Were

you

aware

of any

th e r e

were

media

le a k a g e s o f c la s s i f ie d i n f o r m a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

v a r io u s

d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t w e r e i n t h e - i n t h e m e d i a o r w i th in th e m e d ia a t t h e
ti m e . A l t h o u g h m y - my t e a m w it h w e - w it h w h o m I w o r k e d w e w e n t w e u n d e r w e n t a t l e a s t t w o /t h r e e p o l y g r a p h t e s ts in r e s p e c t o f t h e s e
le a k a g e s a n d w e p a s s e d a l l o f th o s e p o ly g r a p h t e s ts .
20

S o t h a t is - w e - w h e n I s a w th is I a c t u a ll y f e l t q u i t e - I
t h o u g h t i t w a s q u i te u n f a ir b e c a u s e I s a w t h is a s - a g a i n a s a t a c ti c n o t
t o - n o t t o d e c l a s s i fy th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n b e c a u s e t h e l e a k a g e s d i d n o t
c o m e fr o m u s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h a t d i d y o u th e n d o ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, I - I h a v e t o g o b a c k t o my

Page 123 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
s t a te m e n t to s e e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n f a c t w h il e y o u a r e th e r e y o u m i g h t
- m i g h t a s w e l l g o t o th e n e x t a n n e x u r e w h ic h i s A n n e x u r e K D R 3 0 . I t
s t a r ts o n p a g e 3 - 3 - 9 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h i s is -

t h is i s n o w o n t h e r e s p o n d o f t h e - o n t h e r e s p o n s e o f t h e le t t e r b y
General Ngcobo.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h o w r i t e - w h a t is t h is d o c u m e n t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

to

General

-

General Dramat

C h a ir I a m w r i ti n g t h is d o c u m e n t
in

response

to

th e

l e tt e r

of

G e n e r a l N g c o b o i n d ic a ti n g t h a t h e c a n n o t a s s is t a n d t h a t h e n e e d s t o
c o n s u l t th e O ff ic e o f th e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d th is le t t e r is d a t e d th e 2 2 n d o f

M a r c h 2 0 1 3 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d i f w e l o o k t o , r a th e r w h a t a r e

t h e i m p o r ta n t f e a t u r e s t h a t y o u ’ v e h ig h l i g h te d – th a t y o u c a n h ig h li g h t
fr o m t h is d o c u m e n t , i t ’s q u i t e a le n g t h y d o c u m e n t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a ir I w o u l d li k e t o s h a r e

p a r a g r a p h t h r e e w h ic h s t a te s t h e f o l l o w i n g ,
“ C o u p le d w i th th is r e q u e s t a fu r t h e r r e q u e s t w a s f o r w a r d e d t o
t h e o ff ic e o f t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r t o d e c l a s s i fy c e r t a i n
d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h ic h i s n e e d e d in t h e a b o v e m e n ti o n e d c r i m i n a l
matters.

H a v i n g p e r u s e d t h e l e t te r fr o m a c ti n g D i v is i o n a l

Commissioner

Crime

I n te ll ig e n c e

Page 124 of 233

and

P r o t e c ti o n

S e r v ic e s

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M a jo r N g c o b o I’ m n o t c e r ta i n e x a c t ly w h a t h e is a l le g in g i n
r e s p e c t o f t h is in v e s ti g a t io n a n d t h e n I g o f u r th e r i n p a r a g r a p h
s ix , th e d o c u m e n t s r e c e iv e d fr o m C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e a r e s t o r e d
e n v ir o n m e n t to w h ic h a c c e s s is li m i t e d .

T h e o n ly o t h e r

p e r s o n s a l lo w e d a c c e s s to th e c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n ts w e r e
m e m b e r fr o m t h e o ff ic e o f t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l a n d t h e o ffi c e o f
t h e I n s p e c t o r G e n e r a l o f I n t e lli g e n c e a n d t h e n I a ls o s t a te t h e
f o ll o w i n g , i t is h o w e v e r, i m p o r t a n t to n o t e th a t o n e m u s t k e e p
in m i n d t h a t w h e n d e a l in g w i t h a c r i m i n a l m a t t e r c e r t a i n
10

in f o r m a ti o n w i ll b e c o m e p u b li c k n o w l e d g e d u e t o t h e n a t u r e o f
o u r c r i m i n a l ju s t ic e s y s t e m .
O n c e t h e m a t t e r is b e f o r e C o u r t it i s in t h e p u b li c d o m a i n a n d
t h e m e d i a h a v e a c c e s s . W i th t h is r e g a r d I w a s th i n k i n g I w a s
r e fe r r i n g s p e c i f ic a l ly t o t h e a ff i d a v i ts I h a v e f il e d i n o b t a in i n g
c e r t a i n s e i z u r e w a r r a n ts .

T h o s e d o c u m e n t s c a n b e u p l if t e d

fr o m a M a g is tr a t e b y a n in d i v i d u a l i f s o r e q u ir e d , i t b e c o m e s a
p u b lic d o c u m e n t a n d w h a t is c o n t a i n e d i n t h e r e is n o r m a l ly a
f a c tu a l b a c k g r o u n d a s to w h y y o u w a n t a c c e s s to t h a t s p e c i f ic
p r e m is e s a n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h t e n I s t a t e , t h e p r o b l e m w it h
20

s u c h v a g u e a l l e g a ti o n s a s s t a te d b y M a j o r G e n e r a l N g c o b o ’s
le t t e r is th a t i t c o u l d b e u s e d t o c o n c e a l t h e fa c t t h a t c e r t a i n
m e m b e r s o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e d o n o t w a n t t o a s s is t d u e t o
t h e ir o w n a g e n d a s .
P a r a g r a p h 1 3 , I ’v e s t a t e d o n n u m e r o u s o c c a s i o n s th a t w e
w o u ld lik e t o c o n d u c t o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n w i t h t h e a s s i s t a n c e o f

Page 125 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e , I’v e s u b m it t e d s e v e r a l w r i t t e n r e q u e s t s f o r
d o c u m e n ts t h a t I n e e d in t h e c r i m i n a l m a tt e r.

I have yet to

r e c e i v e s a i d d o c u m e n ts , I h a v e n o t m a d e a n is s u e o u t o f th is
b u t i t w o u l d s e e m t h a t t h e c o o p e r a ti o n t h a t I s e e k t o e s t a b l is h
c a m e to n o t h i n g .

C h a ir t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 , w h a t i s o f

f u r th e r c o n c e r n is th a t t h i s s p e c i fic i s s u e , c o o p e r a ti o n o f
w i t n e s s e s w i th in C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e w a s g iv e n a s o n e o f t h e
reasons

as

to

why

A d v o c a te

Magwebe

stopped

the

in v e s t i g a t io n i n t o Si lv e r t o n C A S 1 5 5 / 7 / 11 t h is w a s d o n e a f te r
10

c o n s u l t a ti o n w i th M a j o r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f
2012.

It i s i m p o r ta n t t o n o te t h a t th e m a j o r it y o f m e m b e r s I

r e q u ir e w o r k e d w i t h h i m u n d e r th e r e l e v a n t p e r i o d u n d e r
in v e s t i g a t io n s o t h e y w o u ld b e c o m e w i tn e s s e s in t h e m a t t e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And at paragraph 16?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Paragraph 16 says,

“ I w a n t to r e i t e r a te t h a t w e n e e d t h e a s s is t a n c e o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e i n t h is m a t te r, I h a v e a l w a y s b e e n i n f a v o u r o f
k e e p i n g C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a b r e a s t o f t h e s i tu a ti o n , th is w o u l d
in c l u d e t h e ir p a r tic ip a ti o n i n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n to li m i t t h e
20

exposure

of

methods

and

m e th o d o l o g y.

Without

t h e ir

a s s is t a n c e i n th is r e g a r d i t is v e r y d i ff i c u l t t o e n s u r e t h a t
a s s e ts a n d m e t h o d o lo g y a r e n o t c o m p r o m i s e d , t h e y h a v e b e e n
g iv e n th e o p p o r t u n i ty to b e p a r t o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n b u t h a v e
y e t to p a r t ic ip a t e ” .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th is w a s d o n e [i n d is t in c t ]

Page 126 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t y o u p r e p a r e d t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Do you know what General Dramat

d i d w i th t h i s i n f o r m a t i o n n o t e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e th e r t h i s

s p e c i f ic in f o r m a t io n t h a t w a s f o r w a r d e d to t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s
o ffic e b u t I d o k n o w th a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t , o n v a r io u s o c c a s io n s to l d m e
h e h a d m e e t i n g s w i t h G e n e r a l P h iy e g a a n d in r e s p e c t o f th o s e m e e t in g s
h e s a i d th a t s h e r e f u s e d to a s s is t a n d s h e w a s n o t g o i n g t o a s s is t h i m ,
10

a t s o m e s t a g e i t b e c a m e – h e w a s n o t e v e n c o n s i d e r i n g a s k in g a n y m o r e
b e c a u s e h e w a s – I d o n ’ t t h i n k h e w o u l d a d m i t i t b u t h e w a s i n ti m i d a t e d
a n d v ic ti m i s e d b y G e n e r a l P h iy e g a a t t h e t i m e th a t i s w h e n h e t o l d
m e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
COMMISSIONER:
UNIDENTIFIED

Sorry Judge may I?

Please come through.

MALE

SPEAKER:

Thank

you

Judge

fo r

the

o p p o r t u n i ty, I w a n t t o lo d g e a n o b j e c t io n i n m a n n e r in w h i c h t h e w i t n e s s
is t e s t i fy i n g a b o u t G e n e r a l P h iy e g a , h e ’s b a s i n g i t o n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O b j e c ti o n … ( in t e r v e n e s ] .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:

He is basing it on hearsay

evidence.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a w h a t ’s w r o n g w i t h h e a r s a y e v id e n c e ?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:

W e l l t o t h e e x te n t t h a t w e d o n o t

h a v e a n y e v i d e n c e fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t in th is r e s p e c t .
COMMISSIONER:

T h e C o m m is s i o n i s a ll o w e d t o h e a r, h e a r s a y

Page 127 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
e v i d e n c e , t h a t is n o t to s a y i t ’s g o t li c e n c e t o t a k e a ll k i n d s o f h e a r s a y
e v i d e n c e b u t th e r e is a l e e w a y c o m p a r e d t o a C o u r t o f l a w f o r i t to
t a k e … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t J u d g e I a g r e e .

N o w I h a d n o t e v e n h e a r d h i m w h a t h e w a s s a y in g

t h e n y o u o b j e c t e d , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t i t i s t h a t y o u h a d h e a r d w h ic h I
h a d n o t h e a r d y e t?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

J u d g e h e ’s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

W h a t d i d h e s a y th a t i s o b j e c ti o n a b l e ?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:

J u d g e h e ’s m e n t i o n in g a l le g e d

r e p o r t s t h a t h e c la i m s t h a t h e h a s r e c e iv e d fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a , w e
h a v e n o t s e e n a n y o f t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON:
UNIDENTIFIED

Well I haven’t heard what he says.
MALE

SPEAKER:

Okay

Judge

I ’l l

reserve

it … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u m a y r e s e r v e y o u r r ig h t a n d a s I s a y I t h i n k h e

w a s h a l fw a y th r o u g h a s e n t e n c e a n d - I c a n ’ t a s s e s s u n l e s s I k n o w
e x a c tl y w h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o s a y.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:
20

J u d g e m a y b e w e ’ ll j u s t c o m p l e t e it

a n d th e n I w il l – I w il l r e s e r v e my r i g h t to .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, th a n k y o u , y e s w e r e g iv i n g a n a n s w e r a n d

I h a d n o t h e a r d t h e f u ll a n s w e r.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir b a s ic a l ly m y a n s w e r is t h e

f o ll o w i n g I r e q u e s te d i n w r it i n g a s w e l l a s v e r b a l ly G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o
a s s is t i n f a c i li t a ti n g t h is p r o c e s s o f g e t ti n g d o c u m e n ts d e c la s s i f ie d . H e

Page 128 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d i d th a t b y h a v i n g m e e ti n g s w i t h G e n e r a l P h iy e g a . H e c a m e b a c k t o m e
a n d h e r e p o r t b a c k t o m e a n d h e s a id – n o t th a t h e h a d to r e p o r t b a c k
t o m e b u t h e i s a g e n t le m a n h e w i ll a l w a y s te ll y o u w h a t i s g o i n g o n t o
t h e b e s t o f h i s a b i li ty, h e to ld m e th a t i n h i s m e e t in g s w i t h G e n e r a l
P h iy e g a i t is e v i d e n t a n d c l e a r t o h i m th a t s h e w a s n o t g o i n g to a s s is t
h i m in g e t ti n g t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t w e r e q u ir e d t o b e d e c l a s s i f ie d ,
d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d t h a t i s t h e e x te n t I c a n t a k e it – I c a n o n ly t a k e t h a t
f a r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s d id h e i n d ic a te w h a t b a s is G e n e r a l P h i y e g a

p r o v i d e d f o r b e in g u n w il li n g t o p r o v i d e t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r h e d id n ’ t s h a r e h e r r e a s o n s

w i t h m e b u t h e w a s v e r y d e s p o n d e n t a n d I c o u l d s e e th a t h e
f e l t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

H e fe l t i n t i m i d a t e d .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s a n d h e w o u l d n o t b e – a n d h e

t h o u g h t t h is w a s n o t g o in g t o h a p p e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D id y o u a p p r o a c h a n y s e n i o r S t a t e

A d v o c a t e t o a ls o a s s is t i n th e d e c l a s s i fic a t io n o f d o c u m e n t s ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir I a ls o a p p r o a c h e d th e –

w e ll I d i d n ’ t a p p r o a c h t h i s , h e w a s a p p o i n t e d a s p a r t o f t h e p r o s e c u t io n
t o n o w d e a l w i th th e c r i m i n a l m a tt e r a n d o n th e 6 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 t h e
S e n i o r S t a t e A d v o c a te R i ta Vi l jo e n w h o w a s a p r o s e c u to r i n t h e c r i m i n a l
m a t t e r t h a t i n c l u d e d a l l t h e a ll e g a t io n s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y a r e y o u b a c k t o t h e s ta t e m e n t?

Page 129 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir b u t y o u k n o w, w i t h y o u r

le a v e w e c o u l d p e r h a p s j u s t g o t o t h e a c t u a l d o c u m e n t i t s e l f.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w h a t p a g e i s t h a t ?

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

On page 344.

O k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s th a t t h e d o c u m e n t y o u r e f e r r e d

to?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV
10

VERUSCHKA

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

SEPTEMBER:

W h a t ’s

the

purpose

of

this

document?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h e p u r p o s e o f t h i s

d o c u m e n t w a s t o g e t d o c u m e n ts d e c la s s i fi e d a n d t o g e t Vi l j o e n w h o
w r o t e t h is le t t e r u n d e r t h e l e t t e r h e a d o f t h e S p e c ia l C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e s
U n i t o f w h ic h s h e i s p a r t , i t is d a t e d 6 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 a n d it h a n d
d e li v e r e d to M a j o r G e n e r a l N g c o b o o ff ic e .

Yo u ’ ll s e e th a t w e a s k f o r

t h e f o l lo w i n g m e m b e r s t o a s s i s t u s a n d w e c l a r if y o r s h e c la r i fi e s t h a t
t h e m e m b e r s n e e d n o t s tr e s s a s th e y w e r e r e g a r d e d n o t a s s u s p e c ts o r
p o s s i b le

s u s p e c ts ,

they

were

regarded

as

w it n e s s e s

and

then

d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n ts . th e n t h e r e ’s a l is t o n t h e n e x t p a g e , s h e
20

s t a te s t h e f o ll o w i n g r e g a r d i n g t h e m ,
“ T h e d o c u m e n ts m e n ti o n e d b e lo w w i ll b e r e li e d u p o n a s
e v i d e n c e i n t h i s m a t t e r.

I t i s t h e r e f o r e e s s e n ti a l th a t s a id

d o c u m e n ts b e d e c l a s s i fi e d fo r t h e u s e t h e r e o f i n a C o u r t o f
la w ” ,
A n d t h e n s h e l is ts v a r i o u s d o c u m e n ts t h a t n e e d s t o b e

Page 130 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d e c l a s s i fi e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is i t t h e r e f o r e c o r r e c t t h a t fr o m th is

d o c u m e n t in it s e l f i t b e c o m e s v e r y a p p a r e n t a s t o w h ic h m e m b e r s y o u
n e e d t o c o n s u l t a n d w h a t t h e lis t o f d o c u m e n ts a r e t h a t y o u – w h a t t h e
lis t o f d o c u m e n t s is t h a t y o u r e q u i r e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir t h i s is n o t

a n e x h a u s t iv e li s t t h e r e w e r e a d d it i o n s to th is a n d t h is w a s a l s o
f o r w a r d e d a t a la t e r s t a g e t o v a r i o u s p e o p l e i n a u th o r i ty.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Is i t c o r r e c t th a t f o ll o w i n g t h a t , y o u

w r o t e a n o t h e r i n f o r m a t io n n o t e , d a t e d t h e 1 7 t h o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
Can I ask you to look at Annexure

3 2 w h ic h s t a r ts a t p a g e 3 4 7 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
Is t h is th e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u

authored?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If I c a n a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e

3 4 8 … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on that document is at 347?

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

It ’s 3 4 7 C h a ir.

Some of the pages are not marked here, was there a

r e s p o n s e t o t h e l e tt e r fr o m Vi lj o e n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I c a n n o t – th e r e w a s n ’ t a

r e s p o n s e C h a ir.

Page 131 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

There was no response?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o t fr o m G e n e r a l N g c o b o , n o

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t l e t te r fr o m A d v o c a te Vil jo e n , t h a t ’s l e tt e r

fr o m t h e N PA is n ’ t i t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

So – and if there had been a response you expected

t o h a v e b e e n c o p i e d o r t o h a v e b e e n to ld a b o u t i t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Ye s C h a ir I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d

t o , I h a v e n o t r e c e i v e d a n y d o c u m e n t, A d v o c a t e Vi lj o e n h a s n o t g iv e n
me any document relating to a response.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y r ig h t y o u m a y p r o c e e d .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e d o c u m e n t th a t t h e n a p p e a r s –

t h a t s t a r ts o n p a g e 3 4 7 w h ic h is A n n e x u r e 3 2 to y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d
dated 17 October 2013, can I ask you to turn to page 348 of this bundle
and please read into the record paragraphs, 4, 5, 6 and 7.
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t’s i d e n t i fy t h e d o c u m e n t fir s t, i t ’s a l e t te r fr o m

w h o m t o w h o m d e a l in g w i t h w h a t s u b j e c t a n d t h e n w e c a n l o o k a t a
p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

As it p l e a s e s C h a ir, t h is is a

d o c u m e n t w h ic h h a s b e e n a u t h o r e d b y C o lo n e l R o e l o fs e a n d i t ’s b e e n
a d d r e s s e d to t h e h e a d o f t h e A n ti C o r r u p ti o n Ta s k Te a m , Br ig a d i e r K
M o o d l e y a n d a ls o t o D e p u ty N a ti o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r L ie u t e n a n t G e n e r a l
D r a m a t d a t e d 1 7 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 u n d e r s u b je c t ti tl e , i n v e s ti g a t i o n s
Ly t t e l t o n C A S n o 4 3 2 / 11 / 2 0 11 fr a u d a n d /o r t h e f t a n d / o r c o r r u p t io n a n d

Page 132 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
S il v e r t o n C A S n o 1 5 5 /0 7 / 2 0 11 fr a u d a n d /o r t h e f t a n d /o r c o r r u p ti o n
D i v is io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r M d l u li a n d o th e r s a n d th is is t h e n a n o t e t h a t
y o u d r a f t , i f I c a n a s k y o u t o tu r n y o u r a t t e n t io n t o p a r a g r a p h 4 o f y o u r
note please?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir I j u s t n e e d t o m e n t io n

t h a t th is n o t e is i n th e b a c k o f a m e e ti n g t h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e 1 7 t h , o n
t h e s a m e d a y w i t h G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d b a s e d o n t h a t I d r a f te d t h i s
note, paragraph 4,
“ I a p p r o a c h e d M a jo r G e n e r a l N g c o b o ju s t a ft e r h is a p p o i n t m e n t
10

a s a c ti n g h e a d o f C r i m in a l a n d C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e w i th t h e v i e w
t o s e c u r e h is c o o p e r a ti o n i n th is in v e s t ig a ti o n .

My f ir s t

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w a s v i a e m a il d a t e d 2 0 1 2 / 0 7 / 0 5 I d i d n o t
r e c e i v e a n y r e s p o n s e t o t h i s e m a il a n d s u b s e q u e n t ly r e q u e s t
t o m e e t w i th M a j o r G e n e r a l N g c o b o w e r e a ls o u n s u c c e s s fu l . I
t h e n f o r w a r d e d a S M S t o h i m i n l a t e S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 2 w h ic h
t h e n r e s u l t e d i n a m e e t i n g d a te d 2 0 1 2 / 1 0 / 0 2 .

D u r in g t h e

m e e ti n g t h a t t o o k p la c e , h e a s s u r e d m e th a t h e w il l a s s is t a n d
a p p o i n t e d B r i g a d i e r N x o s a n a a s a li a is o n o ffic e r. I w a s a s k e d
t o p u t m y r e q u e s t i n w r i t in g a n d a s s u r e d p r o m p t c o o p e r a ti o n . I
20

d u ly c o m p l i e d a n d f o r w a r d e d v a r i o u s r e q u e s t s t o B r i g a d i e r
N x o s a n a . T h e s e r e q u e s t s p r e - d a te d th e a p p o in t m e n t o f M a jo r
G e n e r a l N g c o b o a n d w e r e m e r e ly r e p e a t e d th is h a s a l s o b e e n
ig n o r e d .

On

2 0 1 3 /0 2 /1 3

I

a g a in

tr i e d

to

secure

h is

c o o p e r a ti o n , t h e c o o p e r a ti o n o f C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e b y m e a n s o f
a l e tt e r in w h ic h I r e q u e s te d th e a s s i s t a n c e a n d m a k i n g

Page 133 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
a v a i la b le m e m b e r s i n a n a t t e m p t t o o b t a i n w it n e s s s t a t e m e n ts
fr o m t h e m . P a r a g r a p h 6 , t h is r e q u e s t w a s ig n o r e d a n d t h i s h a s
le d m e t o r e q u e s t y o u r a s s is t a n c e i n th is m a t t e r. I n th is r e g a r d
I r e q u e s t e d y o u r o ff ic e to f a c il it a t e a w r i t te n r e q u e s t a d d r e s s e d
t o M a j o r N g c o b o . T h is w a s d o n e o n 2 0 1 3 / 0 3 / 0 7 ” .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

P le a s e c o n ti n u e .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

“The response from

Major

G e n e r a l N g c o b o d a t e d 2 0 1 3 / 0 3 /1 2 in d i c a t e d t h a t h e w i ll n o t
m a k e m e m b e r s a v a i l a b le , h e in d i c a t e d th a t h e h a s e s c a l a t e d
10

t h e r e q u e s t t o th e o ff ic e o f th e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r a n d t h a t
h e is c u r r e n t ly in c o n s u l t a ti o n w it h s a i d o ff ic e ” .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th e n p a r a g r a p h 9 , is i t c o r r e c t

t h a t y o u h a d th e n r e q u e s t e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o f a c il i ta t e a m e e t i n g
b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d M a jo r G e n e r a l N g c o b o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d th is m e e t in g t o o k p l a c e o n t h e

2 4 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 3 a t y o u r o ff ic e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

W h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h is m e e ti n g ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

“I then requested that you

f a c i li t a te t h e m e e ti n g , in t h is r e g a r d I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t G e n e r a l
D r a m a t n o w b e tw e e n M a j o r G e n e r a l N g c o b o , y o u a n d I , t h i s
m e e ti n g t o o k p la c e o n 2 4 J u l y 2 0 1 3 a t y o u r o ff ic e . D u r i n g t h i s
m e e ti n g G e n e r a l N g c o b o in d ic a t e d t h a t h e is f in d i n g i t d i ffic u lt
t o f u l f il h is m a n d a t e a s h e r e c e i v e d r e q u e s ts fr o m th is o ff ic e t o

Page 134 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
a s s is t w i th th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d th e n r e c e iv e s c o m m u n ic a ti o n
fr o m L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d M a j o r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
u r g i n g h i m n o t t o i n v e s ti g a t e i n t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n .

Major

General Ngcobo was informed by me that I cannot secure his
c o o p e r a ti o n - t h a t if I c a n n o t s e c u r e h is c o o p e r a ti o n I h a v e b u t
two

o p ti o n

open

to

me

to

pursue.

Th is

would

e n t a il

a p p r o a c h i n g J u d g e M u s h a i n t e r m s o f h is a p p o i n t m e n t t o
in v e s t i g a t e m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o D P C I in v e s t ig a ti o n s a n d / o r s e e k
a

subpoena

v ia

the

C o u r ts

to

secure

c o o p e r a ti o n

fr o m

members”.

10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 l a s tly.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

“ A t t h is p o i n t I c a n c a te g o r i c a ll y

s t a te th a t I h a v e n o t r e c e i v e d a n y c o o p e r a ti o n fr o m C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e
s in c e t h e r e - e m p l o y m e n t o f M a j o r G e n e r a l H e n k e l l a t e i n 2 0 11 ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

In paragraph 9 you say that Major General Ngcobo

t o l d y o u a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t i n th e m e e ti n g t h a t h e w a s fi n d i n g i t
d i ff ic u l t t o f u lf il h is m a n d a t e b e c a u s e o f r e q u e s t s t h a t h e w a s r e c e i v i n g
fr o m t h e H a w k s t o a s s is t w it h t h e in v e s t i g a ti o n a n d t h e n s a i d – y o u s a y
h e s a i d h e r e c e iv e d c o m m u n ic a ti o n s fr o m L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l M d l u li
20

and

Major

General

in v e s t i g a t io n .

Lazarus

urging

him

not

to

a s s is t

w i th

the

D i d M a j o r G e n e r a l N g c o b o s a y w h a t th e b a s is w a s fo r

G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o s a y to h i m h e s h o u ld n o t a s s i s t ,
d i d h e i n d i c a t e w h a t t h e b a s is w a s f o r t h e m t o a s k h i m n o t t o a s s is t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r h e d i d n o t d ir e c t ly in d ic a t e

w h a t t h e b a s i s w e r e h e a c t u a l ly d id n ’t g i v e a n y r e a s o n h e ju s t s t a te d

Page 135 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
that and he left it at that.

S o I d o n o t k n o w e x a c t ly w h a t h a p p e n e d

between him and General Lazarus and General Mdluli as to why he
w o u ld s a y s o m e t h in g l ik e t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t t h e y h a d n o a u t h o r i t y o v e r h i m , d i d th e y ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir t h e y d id n ’ t h a v e a n y

a u t h o r i ty o v e r h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o h e h a d n o o b li g a t io n t o o b e y w h a te v e r t h e y m a y

have requested him to do or not to do?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

N o C h a ir h e d i d n ’ t h a v e a n y

o b li g a ti o n t o o b e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

When General – or rather General

Z u l u , a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t r e p la c e d G e n e r a l N g c o b o w h e n h e w a s
s u s p e n d e d is t h a t r ig h t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

B a c k t o p a g e 5 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .

D o y o u h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e o f w h e t h e r M a j o r

G e n e r a l N g c o b o ’s s u s p e n s i o n h a d a n y t h in g t o d o w i t h h o w h e w a s
h a n d l in g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s t h e r e w h e r e h e w a s a s k e d t o a s s is t ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w, I d o n o t

k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 8 .7 , f o l l o w i n g

t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u b a c k to t h e s t a t e m e n t ?

Page 136 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Yo u m u s t a n n o u n c e s o o t h e r w i s e w e d o n ’ t k n o w

w h ic h – w e d o n ’ t k n o w t h a t y o u a r e b a c k to th e s t a te m e n t , p a r a g r a p h .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

P a g e 5 4 p a r a g r a p h 1 7 8 .7 .

A lr ig h t .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h e n G e n e r a l Z u l u c a m e i n t o o ff ic e

w e r e a n y s t e p s t a k e n t o a p p r o a c h G e n e r a l Z u l u … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

R e m e m b e r j u s t to le t th e w i t n e s s g i v e e v id e n c e ,

d o n ’t l e a d h i m o n s o m e o f t h e s e th i n g s , le t t h e e v i d e n c e c o m e fr o m
10

him.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir.

Did Dramat

t a k e a n y a d d i t io n a l s te p s d u r in g F e b r u a r y o r M a r c h 2 0 1 5 a ft e r G e n e r a l
N g c o b o l e f t o ff ic e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair during February and March

2 0 1 4 G e n e r a l D r a m a t r e q u e s t e d , i n w r i t in g a m e e ti n g w i th L i e u te n a n t
G e n e r a l B o n g i Z u l u … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u g o f u r t h e r, y o u h a v e n ’t t o l d m e h o w th e

m e e ti n g b e tw e e n y o u r s e lf , G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d M a j o r G e n e r a l N g c o b o
e n d e d , w h a t w a s th e o u t c o m e o f t h a t m e e ti n g . Yo u h a v e s a i d t h a t h e
20

s a i d h e w a s f i n d in g i t d i ff ic u l t t o f u lf il h is m a n d a t e b u t te ll m e h o w th e
m e e ti n g e n d e d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir th e m e e t in g e n d e d w i t h o u t

a d e c is io n b e i n g t a k e n , G e n e r a l N g c o b o d i d n ’ t a g r e e t o a s s i s t u s w i th
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n o r my s e l f w i th t h e in v e s ti g a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll a r e y o u a b le t o s h a r e w it h m e m o r e i n t e r m s o f

Page 137 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h e c o n te n t o f t h a t d is c u s s io n a t t h a t m e e t in g o t h e r t h a n j u s t w h a t is i n
t h e s t a t e m e n t . I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t th e d is c u s s i o n w o u l d h a v e
been

quite

d e t a i le d

because

th is

was

a

very

important

of

d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n y o u h a d e x p e r i e n c e d l o ts o f r e s is t a n c e o r l a c k o f
c o o p e r a ti o n a n d a t l e a s t , u lt i m a t e ly, y o u h a d a m e e ti n g w it h s o m e b o d y
n o w a n d t h a t I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t h e w o u l d n ’ t ju s t g e t a w a y w it h s a y i n g
b e c a u s e o f y o u p e o p l e m a k in g l o ts o f r e q u e s t t o m e I f in d i t d i ffi c u l t t o
d o m y j o b . I m e a n w h a t k i n d o f r e s p o n s e i s t h a t, I w o u ld i m a g i n e y o u
w o u ld n ’t a l l o w t h a t t o g o u n c h a l le n g e d ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I w a s n ’ t – I tr i e d t o k e e p

t h e e m o ti o n o u t o f t h e d o c u m e n t s s o y e s … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no keep the emotions out but reason with the

m a n , h e ’s t e lli n g y o u , y o u p e o p l e a r e m a k i n g t o o m a n y r e q u e s t s a n d h e
s a y s , t h a t’s th e r e a s o n w h y h e ’s n o c o o p e r a ti n g s o w h a t k i n d o f
r e s p o n s e is t h a t y o u p e o p l e – I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d y o u t o s a y, h a n g
on if we need your assistance, we need your assistance, you must
a s s is t u s w h e r e m u s t w e g o , y o u h a v e t h e in f o r m a ti o n , i f y o u d o n ’ t h a v e
p r o p e r r e a s o n s n o t d e c la s s i f y, c la s s i f y. I f y o u ’v e g o t r e a s o n s w h y t e l l
us why?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir y o u ’r e q u it e c o r r e c t , t h e

m e e ti n g w a s n ’ t j u s t t e n m in u t e s it w a s q u it e a l e n g t h y m e e t in g a n d a l o t
o f th i n g s w a s d is c u s s e d d u r in g t h e m e e ti n g . A l o t o f t h e t h in g s w e r e
s a i d t o u s i n c o n fi d e n c e b y G e n e r a l N g c o b o th a t h e fe l t t h a t h e c o u ld
n o t a s s i s t u s h e d id n o t o n ly g e t p r e s s u r e fr o m G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , h e a ls o r e f e r r e d t o s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t , h is o w n

Page 138 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
m a n a g e m e n t t h a t d o e s n o t w a n t to a s s i s t h i m o r d o e s n ’ t w a n t t o a l lo w
h i m t o a s s is t u s . H e w a s , d u r i n g t h e m e e t in g h e w a s v e r y a p o lo g e tic in
t e r m s o f th e p o s i ti o n th a t h e is i n b u t h e s ti ll s a i d u n d e r th e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s h e w o u l d n o t b e a b le to a s s i s t u s .

S o w e tr i e d t o

i m p r e s s o n h i m t h e s e r io u s n e s s a n d w h y w e n e e d i t a n d I r e m e m b e r
s p e c i f ic a l ly th e fir s t ti m e I m e t h i m I g a v e h i m a f u ll b r i e fi n g a s s t a te d
in t h is a ff id a v i t r e g a r d in g t h e a l le g a ti o n s a n d h e a g r e e d th a t i t w a s v e r y
s e r io u s a l l e g a ti o n s a n d t h e r e w a s a n a g r e e m e n t th a t h e w o u ld a s s is t
in it i a l ly b u t j u s t n o th in g h a p p e n e d a f te r t h a t a n d I t h i n k d u r i n g th a t
10

m e e ti n g i t c a m e t o li g h t th a t h e w a s g e t ti n g p r e s s u r e b u t n o t o n ly f o r –
h e w a s o n ly w i ll i n g t o n a m e t h e n a m e o f G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s b u t h e r e f e r r e d t o m a n a g e m e n t t h a t is n o t a s s i s t i n g h i m .

So

t h a t , i n e s s e n c e , i t t o o k a l o n g ti m e t o h a v e th e d is c u s s io n b u t th a t , i n
e s s e n c e is w h a t h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u c o m e o u t o f t h e m e e ti n g w i th a v e r y c le a r

v ie w t h a t w e r e i t n o t f o r p r e s s u r e fr o m o t h e r p e o p l e h e w o u ld b e g iv i n g
y o u t h e d o c u m e n ts o r w e r e y o u n o t s u r e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I f o r m e d th a t v i e w w h e n I

in it i a l ly i n f o r m e d h i m o f th e a ll e g a t io n s , I h a d t h e v i e w th e n b u t
20

b e c a u s e o f t h e ti m e la p s e a n d w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d u p to th e n a n d h is
n o n - a s s is t a n c e u p t o t h a t p o i n t I w a s n o t c o n v in c e d t h a t h e w o u l d b e
a b l e , e v e n i f h e w a n t e d t o I d o n ’ t t h in k h e w o u l d h a v e h e l p e d u s i n a n y
event.

S o t h e r e fo r e I r e g a r d e d th a t m e e t in g a s r a t h e r fu t il e , t h e

o u t c o m e o f t h e m e e t i n g in a n y e v e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u r v ie w, b a s e d o n t h e d is c u s s i o n a t t h e m e e t i n g

Page 139 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
a n d w h a t h a d g o n e o n b e fo r e t h a t , y o u r v ie w w a s w e l l th e r e m a y b e
p r e s s u r e b u t e v e n i f th e r e w a s n o p r e s s u r e h e w o u l d n o t g i v e u s t h e
d o c u m e n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r I t h in k w it h o u t a n y p r e s s u r e

fr o m a n y o n e , a n d h e w a s a l l o w e d t o d o h is jo b h e w o u l d h a v e – w e
w o u ld h a v e b e e n a b l e t o a c c o m m o d a te e a c h o t h e r b e c a u s e a s I s a i d
d u r i n g o u r m e e t i n g s I a l w a y s m a i n ta i n e d t h e p o s i ti o n th a t I d id n ’ t w a n t
t o p la c e a n y a g e n t , a n y p r o j e c t in je o p a r d y a n d i f w e a r e g o i n g t o
d e c l a s s i fy d o c u m e n t s i t w o u l d b e w i t h – it w o u l d b e w i th a g r e e m e n t
10

b e t w e e n th e d i ff e r e n t p a r t ie s , t h e N PA , t h e i n v e s t ig a t o r s a s w e l l a s
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .
approached this.

So that was always my standpoint and how I
T h a t ’s w h y I s a y w h e n I f ir s t w a lk e d o u t o f t h e

m e e ti n g a f t e r I b r ie f e d h i m a n d h e u n d e r s t o o d t h e s e r io u s n e s s o f th e
a l le g a ti o n I w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n w e w i ll b e a b le t o g e t s o m e w h e r e
b u t w h e n h e d i d n ’ t c o r r e s p o n d to u s , w h e n h e d i d n ’ t c o m e b a c k t o u s ,
e v e n w i t h th e p e r s o n t h a t h e a p p o in t e d a s a l ia is o n o ff ic e r, t o w h o m I
g a v e v a r i o u s d o c u m e n ts r e q u e s ti n g f u r t h e r d o c u m e n ts a n d r e q u e s t in g
d o c u m e n ts t o b e d e c l a s s i f ie d a n d n o t h i n g – a n d w e w e r e n o t c o n t a c te d
a g a in .
20

S o a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e I w a s q u it e c e r ta in i t i s n o t g o i n g to

h a p p e n , h e is n o t g o in g to a s s is t u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a id i t w o u ld a p p e a r t h a t h e
m a y h a v e to ld y o u a t th e m e e t in g o r s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t h e m a y
h a v e t o l d y o u i n c o n f id e n c e m a y i f r e v e a l e d s h o w t h a t th e r e w e r e
certain people who may have put pressure on him when there were no
le g i t i m a te g r o u n d s f o r s a y i n g d o c u m e n ts s h o u ld n o t b e d is c l o s e d t o

Page 140 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
you.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir t h a t i s t h e s e n s e t h a t I g o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H e w a s n o t - h e w a s n o t g iv i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s n o t g iv in g to o m u c h i n f o r m a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ja.

H e d i d n o t t a k e u s i n to h is

c o n fi d e n c e a s to w h o t h e s e in d iv i d u a ls w e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : B u t h e d id a l l u d e to t h a t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It was -

it reminded

me

of

G e n e r a l M k h w a n a z i in P a r l i a m e n t s a y in g t h e r e is p o w e r s f r o m a b o v e
t h a t te ll s m e w h a t t o d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

General Mkhwanazi when he was

t h e A c ti n g C o m m i s s io n e r o f P o l ic e h e g a v e th a t r e s p o n s e in P a r l ia m e n t
s a y in g t h a t h e r e c e iv e s o r d e r s fr o m a b o v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

S o t h a t is th e s e n s e th a t I g o t

w h e n I w a l k e d o u t o f t h a t m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o h e i s n o t a c ti n g a s h i s o w n m a n
in t e r m s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O f t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t h e is h o l d i n g .

Page 141 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I k n o w t h a t M s S e p t e m b e r d i d a n n o u n c e t h a t t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s h a v e b e e n - h a v e b e e n a b le to b e in t o u c h w i t h
M a jo r - G e n e r a l N g c o b o n o w a n d p r o b a b ly h e w o u l d c o m e a n d g iv e
e v i d e n c e a b o u t a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s w h y h e d i d n o t g iv e c o o p e r a ti o n a n d
h o p e fu ll y w il l b e a b le t o t e ll m e i f t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e a b o v e h i m w h o p u t
p r e s s u r e o n h i m n o t to d o w h a t h e fe l t w a s - n e e d e d t o b e d o n e i n
t e r m s o f th e w o r k .
I n o t h e r w o r d s i f th e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o w i t h o u t a n y le g it i m a t e
r e a s o n s a i d h e m u s t n o t d e c l a s s i fy d o c u m e n ts t h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n
10

d e c l a s s i fi e d f o r p u r p o s e s o f y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s o - s o - b u t I t h i n k h e I t h i n k h e w il l c o m e a t s o m e s t a g e a n d h e - h e c a n t h e n g iv e m e
in f o r m a ti o n . O k a y.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. G o i n g b a c k t o a n y
f u r th e r s t e p s th a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t to o k w h e n G e n e r a l N g c o b o l e f t
o ffic e .

Are

you

aware

of

any

fu r t h e r

steps

taken

during

February/March 2014?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir. I a m a w a r e . I a g a i n o n
20

r e q u e s t fr o m m y s e l f G e n e r a l D r a m a t in w r i t in g r e q u e s t e d a m e e ti n g w i th
G e n e r a l B o n g i Z u l u . S h e ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

G e n e r a l Zu l u

r e p la c e d

General

-

M a jo r - G e n e r a l N g c o b o d u r i n g t h e la t t e r ’s s u s p e n s i o n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A s f a r a s I
know …

Page 142 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: He - she replaced him.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h e l e t t e r w a s i n a n e ff o r t t o

r e s o l v e t h e d e c la s s i f ic a t i o n o f d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t w e h a d i n o u r
p o s s e s s i o n a s w e l l a s th e n o n - c o o p e r a ti o n o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e
members.

I - I d o s e e th a t I s t a te t h a t G e n e r a l Z u l u r e p l a c e d

General Ngcobo when he was suspended.
I
10

do

not

know

whether

this

m e e t in g

to o k

place

with

G e n e r a l D r a m a t b u t o n 9 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 G e n e r a l D r a m a t s e n t th e fo ll o w i n g
t o G e n e r a l Z u l u v i a tw o s e p a r a t e e m a i ls .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Can

I then

d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u a r e a b o u t to r e fe r t o ?

take

you

to

those

T h e f ir s t d o c u m e n t is

Annexure KDR33 and it begins at page 3-5-1.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

This appears to be an email sent

fr o m D P C I H e a d o n 9 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 0 3 : 1 6 p m a n d i t is s e n t t o t h e
D i v is io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e C C Zu lu , B o n g i w e
M a jo r - G e n e r a l s u b je c t b e i n g r e q u e s t f o r d e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n o f d o c u m e n ts
20

a n d a s s is t a n c e w i t h w i tn e s s s t a t e m e n ts . S ilv e r t o n C A S 1 5 5 /0 7 / 2 0 11 .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e e m a il w h i c h is r e a ll y j u s t a

c o v e r in g e m a i l a t t a c h e s a r e q u e s t f o r a s s i s t a n c e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d c o u ld y o u t h e n t u r n t h e p a g e t o

Page 143 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
page 3-5-2.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a t a p p e a r s t o b e t h e l e tt e r t h a t

w a s i n f a c t a u t h o r e d b y o r s ig n e d r a t h e r b y G e n e r a l D r a m a t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n c e a g a i n t h i s is a n o th e r e n c l o s i n g
le t t e r t o th e d o c u m e n t w h ic h fo ll o w s a t p a g e 3 - 5 - 3 . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

A n d t h i s is t h e v e r y s a m e d o c u m e n t

t h a t y o u r e a d in t o t h e r e c o r d e a r li e r w h i c h w a s d a t e d 6 A u g u s t 2 0 1 3
c a l li n g f o r c o n s u l t a ti o n w it h s p e c i f ic i n d iv i d u a ls a n d p r o v i d i n g a l is t o f
t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n t s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I t is a g a in

t h e s a m e r e q u e s t fr o m A d v o c a t e Vi l jo e n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If we could then go to the next

a n n e x u r e - K D R 3 4 a n d t h a t s t a r ts o n p a g e 3 - 5 - 5 w i t h th e s a m e s e n d e r
t o th e s a m e r e c ip ie n t a n d t h e s a m e s u b j e c t t i tl e . W h a t i s t h e d a te o f
t h is e m a il M r R o e l o fs e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: 9 March 2014 03:18 pm addressed
20

- a n d i t is fr o m t h e D P C I H e a d w h i c h i s G e n e r a l D r a m a t a d d r e s s e d t o
M a jo r - G e n e r a l B o n g i - B o n g i w e Z u l u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i f o n e a c tu a lly l o o k s t o t h e t w o

a n n e x u r e s t h e o n e - t h e t w o e m a i ls - e n c lo s i n g e m a i ls o n p a g e 3 - 5 - 1
and 3-5-5. So keep the - the page open at 3-5-5 please …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir.

Page 144 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t u r n to p a g e 3 - 5 - 1 .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t a p p e a r s t h a t th e o n ly d i ffe r e n c e i n
t h e s e t w o e m a ils is th e ti m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d t h e

a tt a c h m e n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th a t a p p e a r s t o b e t w o mi n u te s

apart?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. S o i t w a s t h e s a m e e m a i l t h a t
was sent two minutes apart?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

They only

d i ff e r e n t a tt a c h m e n ts .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Did - excuse me?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t h a d d i ff e r e n t a t t a c h m e n ts .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

How

so

were

the

a tt a c h m e n ts

d i ff e r e n t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n th e f ir s t
- t h e fi r s t e m a il d e a l t w i th t h e le t t e r fr o m A d v o c a te Vi lj o e n …
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h e s e c o n d e m a i l d e a lt w i t h

a d d it i o n a l w it n e s s e s t h a t n e e d to b e i n t e r v i e w e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y a n d th a t is th e n r e f le c t e d o n

page 3-5-6. Is that right?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 145 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D id G e n e r a l Zu lu r e s p o n d to th e s e

c o m m u n ic a ti o n s /
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o C h a ir s h e d id n o t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Did

you

take

any

steps

after

r e c e i v i n g n o r e s p o n s e fr o m C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e t o th is d a t e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

I

again

asked

G e n e r a l D r a m a t to a s s is t a n d t o r e s e n d …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: We are on page 3-55.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

And to resend the same request.

I n S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a f te r r e c e iv i n g n o r e s p o n s e - th is is n o w fi v e
m o n th s m o r e t h a n fi v e m o n t h s - I c o n s u l t e d w i th G e n e r a l D r a m a t .
I n f o r m i n g h i m t h a t I h a v e c o m p le t e d a d r a ft a ffi d a v i t i n w h ic h I s o u g h t
t o o b t a i n a s u b p o e n a i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 2 0 5 o f t h e C r i m i n a l P r o c e d u r e
A c t i n o r d e r to e n s u r e t h e c o o p e r a t io n o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .
G e n e r a l D r a m a t p r o v id e d m e w it h t h e a b o v e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e
w h ic h h is o ffic e h a s f o r w a r d e d t o C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e i n a n a t te m p t t o
s e c u r e th e i r a s s i s t a n c e . H e r e q u e s t e d m e to a l l o w h i m o n e l a s t c h a n c e
t o s e c u r e t h e c o o p e r a t io n o f t h e v a r i o u s r o le p l a y e r s a n d t h e n o n
2 3 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 4 G e n e r a l D r a m a t a g a i n fo r w a r d e d h i s l e tt e r d a te d

20

7 March 2014 to General Zulu.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I t h e n t a k e y o u to p a g e 3 - 5 - 9

p l e a s e ? Is th is t h e e m a il th a t y o u w e r e r e f e r r in g to ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : F o r t h e r e c o r d th is e m a il is s e n t fr o m
DPCI Head sent on 23 September 2014 at 04:12 pm addressed to Zulu,

Page 146 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
Bongiwe

Major-General

I n t e lli g e n c e .

and

CC

D iv is io n a l

Commissioner

Crime

Th e s u b je c t i s to r e q u e s t f o r a s s i s t a n c e in s e c u r i n g

a v a i la b ili t y o f m e m b e r s a n d t h e r e q u e s t to d e c l a s s i fy o f d o c u m e n ts a n d
a s s is t a n c e w i t h w i tn e s s s t a t e m e n t s a n d i t a p p e a r s fr o m a t le a s t t h is
c o v e r in g e m a i l t h a t c e r t a i n a t t a c h m e n t s w e r e a tt a c h e d a l t h o u g h t h e r e
d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o b e m o r e t h a n o n e p a g e a t ta c h e d t o t h is .

Is t h a t

r ig h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

I f I c o u ld a s k y o u t h e n t o r e a d th e

s e c o n d a n d t h e t h ir d p a r a g r a p h s i n t o t h e r e c o r d p le a s e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Page 360?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: 359.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : 3 5 9 . S o r r y. I j u s t w a n t t o …
“ T h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n in t o t h e a ll e g a t io n s r e g a r d i n g t h e
a p p lic a b l e

documents

has

being

completed.

H o w e v e r t h e a s p e c t - th e a s p e c t o f o b ta in i n g o b t a i n in g o f a ff id a v i ts r e la t in g t o t h e c h a i n e v i d e n c e
b y m e m b e r s i s d e l a y in g th e fi n a li s a t io n o f t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n .
20

D u e to n e w e v id e n c e a n d a d d it i o n a l

c h a r g e s in t h e c a s e - i n th e c a s e s h e r e w i t h a l is t o f
r e q u e s t e d d o c u m e n ts to b e d e c l a s s i f ie d . ”
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h e n o n e t u r n s t h e p a g e t h e r e is
a n i m a g e o f a le t t e r ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n y o u p le a s e c la r i fy w h a t t h is

Page 147 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t is r e l a tiv e to t h e e n c lo s in g e m a i l ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir i t is e x a c tl y t h e s a m e le t t e r
t h a t w a s s e n t - t h a t w a s s e n t o n 3 M a r c h - 2 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 e n c l o s in g
A d v o c a t e Vil jo e n ’s l e tt e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

S o th a t t h e n h a p p e n e d

on 23 September 2014?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What happened subsequent to that

a n d w e a r e b a c k n o w o n p a g e 5 5 o f y o u r a f fi d a v i t ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

“ I n t h e - ( c le a r in g o f

t h r o a t) - in th e m i d d l e o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 I c o n ta in e d
B r i g a d ie r Va n G r a a n . H e i s a t t a c h e d o r h e is - h e is
t h e - h e i s r e q u e s t i n g a s s is t a n c e a s a le g a l a d v is o r
t o b o t h th e D P C I a n d C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .

A t th a t

p o i n t I s ti ll n o t r e c e i v e d a n y f e e d b a c k . I e x p l a i n e d
t o h i m t h a t t h e s e r i o u s n e s s o f t h e s i tu a t io n a n d I
p r o v i d e d h i m a c o p y o f m y d r a f t a ff id a v it a s
m e n ti o n e d a b o v e .
and
20

f a c i li t a te

embarrassment

H e i n d i c a t e d th a t h e w o u ld tr y
the

to

a ll

process
parties

as

to

concerned.

avoid
On

3 0 O c to b e r I w a s i n f o r m e d t h r o u g h t h e O ff ic e o f
G e n e r a l D r a m a t t h a t G e n e r a l Zu lu h a d i n d ic a t e d i n
w r i t in g t h a t - th a t D P C I d o e s n o t n e e d t o r e q u e s t
p e r m is s io n t o c o n d u c t a c r i m i n a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n . S h e
did

not

address

th e

request

Page 148 of 233

about

the

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n t a ti o n . ”
See Annexure 36.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And to that end can I take you to

p a g e 3 - 6 - 2 w h ic h i s A n n e x u r e 3 6 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h i s l e tt e r a p p e a r s to b e d a te d

3 0 O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

A n d i t i s a le t t e r th a t h a s b e e n

a u t h o r e d b y M a jo r - G e n e r a l Z u l u t o t h e a tt e n ti o n o f th e H e a d - t h e
N a t io n a l

Head

D ir e c t o r a te

for

Pr i o r i t y

Crime

In v e s ti g a t io n

B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y. P l e a s e r e a d t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h i n to t h e r e c o r d .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir it s t a t e s th e fo ll o w i n g :
“ P l e a s e t a k e n o te t h a t i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u to
r e q u e s t p e r m is s i o n t o t h i s o ff ic e t o c o n d u c t y o u r
c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n t h e s e m a t t e r s . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And paragraph 3.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

“During

your

in v e s t i g a t io n y o u m u s t h o w e v e r g u a r d a g a i n s t t h e
20

u n a u th o r is e d d i s c lo s u r e o f c l a s s i fi e d i n f o r m a t io n . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d h o w d i d t h is p a r tic u l a r le t t e r

i m p a c t o n t h e l e v e l o f c o o p e r a t i o n y o u t h e n r e c e iv e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I h a d t o p r o v i d e t h is l e t te r to
t h e m e m b e r s o f C I w h ic h I h a d t o i n te r v ie w b e c a u s e th e y w e r e n o t
w i ll in g to d i s c u s s a n y th in g w i t h m e w it h o u t s p e c i f ic a u t h o r is a ti o n b y t h e

Page 149 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
H e a d o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e o r th e Ac t in g H e a d a t - a t t h a t t i m e .

I t is

s t a ti n g t h e o b v i o u s i n t e r m s o f p a r a g r a p h 2 t h a t I d o n o t n e e d - th a t I
d o n o t - i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y f o r m e to r e q u e s t p e r m is s io n .
T h a t is tr u e .
members

were

v ic ti m i s a t io n

not

that

H o w e v e r i n r e s p e c t o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e th e
w i ll i n g

they

to

a s s is t

experienced

because

and

th e y

of

th e

wanted

previous
in

w r it i n g

c o n fir m a t io n t h a t t h e y c a n t a l k t o m e a n d t h a t is th e b a s i s o f t h is l e t t e r.
H o w e v e r t h i s l e t te r d o e s n o t a d d r e s s t h e - th e q u e s ti o n o f t h e
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n .
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : B u t i t c e r t a i n l y o p e n e d u p th e d o o r t o
y o u r c o n s u l ti n g a n d e n g a g i n g w i th t h e m e m b e r s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I n t e r m s o f
the members that I requested to speak to it did.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
a ffi d a v i t .

We go back to page 55 of your

A t p a r a g r a p h 1 8 5 y o u t a lk a b o u t fu r t h e r e n g a g e m e n ts t h a t

you have during January 2015.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e e la b o r a t e .

20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir s in c e r e c e iv in g t h e le t t e r i n

O c t o b e r fr o m - f r o m G e n e r a l Z u l u .

I n J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 I a g a i n c o n ta c t e d

B r i g a d ie r Va n G r a a n r e q u e s ti n g h is a s s is t a n c e . H e i n f o r m e d m e th a t h e
n o lo n g e r a c t e d a s a l e g a l a d v is o r t o th e D P C I a t th a t s ta g e a n d C I b u t
s t il l - b u t w a s s t il l w ill i n g to fa c il i ta t e t h e - t h e d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n o f th e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t I n e e d e d .
H e t h e n s e t u p a m e e ti n g w it h - o n 2 3 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 w i t h

Page 150 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
B r i g a d ie r A d o l p h - M a g e z i A d o l p h N t u l i f r o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a n d
B r i g a d ie r Va n G r a a n in Pr e t o r i a .

At that point in time the Supreme

C o u r t o f A p p e a l j u d g m e n t d e l iv e r e d o n 1 7 A p r il 2 0 1 4 c o n f ir m e d t h e
s e t ti n g a s id e o f A d v o c a t e Mr w e b i ’s d e c is i o n n o t to w i t h d r a w - t o
w i t h d r a w th e m a t t e r a n d - a n d t h e f r a u d a n d c o r r u p t io n c h a r g e s .
I e x p l a i n e d t o Br ig a d i e r N tu li t h a t I n e e d t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n t o
b e d e c l a s s i f ie d a s t h e m a t te r h a s to b e r e - e n r o l le d a n d I g a v e
B r i g a d ie r N t u l i a c o p y o f m y le t t e r d a t e d t h e 2 0 t h - 2 3 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5
e x p l a i n in g t h e r e a s o n fo r t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t i o n r e q u e s t a n d f o r a d d i t io n a l
10

d o c u m e n ts t o b e d e c l a s s i fi e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n w e t h e n t u r n to p a g e - t o

A n n e x u r e K D R 3 7 w h ic h s t a r ts o n p a g e 3 - 6 - 4 ?

I s th e le t t e r th a t y o u

a u t h o r e d t o B r ig a d i e r N t u li d a t e d 2 3 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th i s is th e d o c u m e n t th a t y o u

r e fe r r e d t o n o w b r ie f ly i n y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 3 - 6 - 5

please?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h a t w a s t h e Br ig a d i e r N t u li ’s p o s i t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B r i g a d i e r N t u l i w a s - I th i n k h e

w a s t h e H e a d o f C o u n t e r In t e l li g e n c e w i t h i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .

In

o th e r w o r d s a u n i t w i th in C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

At page 3-6-5 at paragraph 6 you

o u t li n e th e a s s is t a n c e t h a t i s r e q u ir e d . C a n y o u p l e a s e r e a d p a r a g r a p h

Page 151 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
6 i n to t h e r e c o r d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

“However prior to such

a n a p p l ic a ti o n th is o ff ic e w o u l d a p p r e c ia t e y o u r
a s s is t a n c e i n d e te r m in in g - d e t e r m i n i n g t h e i m p a c t t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f s a i d d o c u m e n t w o u ld h a v e i f
a n y. T h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n i n q u e s ti o n r e l a t e s to t h e
a c q u is i ti o n

of

two

v e h ic l e s

in

2010

and

the

subsequent claim that accompanied those vehicles.
T h e s e c o n d s e t o f d o c u m e n ts r e la t e s t o tr a v e l
10

c la i m s s u b m i t t e d t o t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t b y
c e r t a i n m e m b e r s fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e . ”
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 8 y o u m e n t io n
a n - t h e a d d i ti o n a l t y p e o f a s s is t a n c e r e q u i r e d .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s - t h a t is tr u e C h a ir.
“ S e c o n d ly i n t e r m s o f a c c e s s to w i tn e s s e s w i th in
C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e t h i s o ffi c e w o u l d l ik e t o i n te r v i e w
the

f o l lo w in g

members

n a m e ly

B r i g a d ie r S t e y n ,

L i e u t e n a n t- C o l o n e l M N e l a n d L Pr in s l o o . ”
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d fr o m - a t p a r a g r a p h 9 y o u t a l k 20

y o u b a s ic a lly p u t t h e r e q u e s t i n t o c o n te x t o f t h e c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s t h a t
w e r e lo o m i n g ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d a t p a r a g r a p h 11 y o u o n c e a g a i n
in f o r m o f w h a t a c c e s s i s r e q u ir e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 152 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n p a r t ic u l a r y o u l is t a t p a r a g r a p h 11
a p p lic a ti o n s t o C I i n t e r m s o f w h ic h th e i n d iv id u a l s w e r e a p p o in t e d i f
a n y - j o b a p p l ic a t i o n .

I n t e r v ie w s p r i o r t o a p p o i n t m e n t h e ld w i th t h e

in d i v i d u a ls t h a t w e r e a p p o i n te d if a n y. A p p o i n t m e n t le t t e r s - a n y o t h e r
in f o r m a ti o n r e la t in g t o t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h e a b o v e

mentioned

in d i v i d u a ls n o t m e n ti o n e d .
S o m e o f t h o s e n a m e s b e in g r e d a c t e d C h a i r. Is i t c o r r e c t th a t
t h is in f o r m a t io n o r r a t h e r to w h ic h i n v e s t i g a t io n w o u ld t h is i n f o r m a t io n
relate?
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir i f I c a n ta k e y o u b a c k t o th e
- i f I c a n m a k e i t e a s y i f I c a n r e f e r t o d i a g r a m tw o I t h i n k . I t w o u l d b e
t h e o n e s t h a t r e la t e to b e p l a c e d b a c k o n t h e r o ll . ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n - m a y b e to a s s is t y o u th e n c a n

w e l o o k a t K K 2 . 3 th e d i a g r a m s b u n d l e a n d it m a y b e t h a t y o u a r e l o o k in g
f o r d ia g r a m f iv e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t m a y b e C h a ir. I a m c o n f u s e d a t
t h is p o i n t i n t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s a y i t r e la t e d t o t h e c h a r g e s t h a t h a d b e e n

withdrawn?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I n o th e r w o r d s t h e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m u r d e r - t h e Vo s lo o r u s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e Vo s l o o r u s …

Page 153 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a t te r.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o it d o e s n o t - d o e s n o t r e l a te t o
t h e Vo s lo o r u s m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t r e l a te s n o w t o th e - t h e l o o ti n g

of the …
CHAIRPERSON: The car and the …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e a c c o u n t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c a r a n d t h e tr ip ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t - th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. I f w e g o b a c k t h e n to p a g e 5 6
o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t . W h a t h a p p e n e d d u r in g e a r l y Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I w a s in f o r m e d a n d I c a n n o t
remember

whether

it

was

General

-

General Dramat

B r i g a d ie r Va n G r a a n th a t m y r e q u e s t w il l n o t b e a tt e n d e d t o .

or

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e w a n t e d to k n o w h o w a n d w h y I g a i n e d a c c e s s to t h e
c la s s if i e d d o c u m e n t a ti o n .
20

T h i s r e s p o n s e f r o m C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e w a s n o t e x p e c t e d
b e c a u s e d u r i n g S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 D P C I a n d - a n d C I a g r e e d o n t h e
h a n d i n g o v e r o f d o c u m e n ts r e q u ir e d f o r t h e C I c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: What did you then do?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t h e n c o n t a c t e d B r ig a d i e r N t u li …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h a t . T h e r e q u e s t th a t th e y w e r e s a y i n g w o u l d

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
n o t b e a tt e n d e d t o w a s t h a t th e r e q u e s t f o r d e c la s s if ic a ti o n o f c e r t a in
d o c u m e n ts ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s t h e r e a s o n g iv e n to y o u f o r t h e d e c is i o n
t h a t th e r e q u e s t w o u ld n o t b e a t t e n d e d t o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Chair there was not a - no reason
w a s g i v e n t o m e o t h e r t h a n a q u e s ti o n w h ic h I c o n s i d e r a s th e s h i f ti n g
o f th e g o a l p o s t . A q u e s t io n w a s - w a s a s k e d t o m e o r a s k e d o f m e a s
to how I got - how I got into possession of these documents.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h y o u h a d …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t n e e d e d t o b e d e c l a s s i fi e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t d id y o u a s k th e m w h a t is th e r e a s o n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I d i d n o t a s k t h e r e a s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you had reached a point where asking was not y o u r e a lis e d a s k i n g w a s n o t g o i n g t o r e a ll y g iv e y o u a n y … ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t w a s n o t g o i n g t o a s s i s t m e C h a ir
…

20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : B e c a u s e a t th is p o i n t i n ti m e I a m
n o w b e i n g q u e s t i o n e d a s t o w h y I h a v e t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n i n m y
possession.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t h is is n o w i n 2 0 1 5 - F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 .

Yo u h a d

s t a r t e d tr y i n g t o g e t d o c u m e n ts d e c l a s s i fi e d - d e c la s s if i e d fr o m w h e n ?

Page 155 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : 2 0 1 2 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Fr o m 2 0 1 2 .

S o s o m e t h i n g l ik e m o r e o r l e s s t h r e e

years had lapsed?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u a r e n o t g e t t i n g a s s is t a n c e . Yo u a r e s ti ll

where you were in 20212?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t e r m s o f th e s e d o c u m e n ts .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

But now I am being - now I am

b e i n g a s k e d a s h o w I - h o w I g o t h o l d o f th e d o c u m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d I m e a n t h is is s t ill t h e

in s t i tu t io n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e . T h e r e m u s t b e r e c o r d . T h e y m u s t k n o w
…
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

How

I

got

hold

of

the

d o c u m e n t a ti o n b e c a u s e t h a t w a s a l l d e a l t w i t h i n 2 0 11 a l r e a d y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm, hm.

S o t h e - t h e r e fe r e n c e to a m e e t i n g - a n

a g r e e m e n t i n 2 0 11 t o w h ic h y o u r e f e r in p a r a g r a p h 1 - 8 - 7 o f y o u r
20

s t a te m e n t d id t h a t r e l a te t o - d i d t h a t a ls o r e la t e t o c la s s i f ie d
d o c u m e n ts ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: So there had been an agreement before?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir b y th e h e a d s
o f t h o s e d e p a r t m e n ts .

Page 156 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d a t t h a t t i m e w h o w a s th e H e a d o f C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e ? Wa s i t ( i n d i s t i n c t) ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir. T h e - t h e A c ti n g H e a d

was General Muchachi (?).
CHAIRPERSON: At that time?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A t t h a t ti m e a n d h is - a n d h i s …
CHAIRPERSON: Deputy?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Direct

s u p e r io r

was

General Lebeya.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A s H e a d o f D e t e c ti v e s . M y …
CHAIRPERSON: And they had agreed?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : My h e a d w a s G e n e r a l D r a m a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h o s e h a d a g r e e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th o s e h a d a g r e e d . Th e y w e r e t h e
- t h e y w e r e i n c h a r g e o f t h o s e in s ti t u t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So the failure to comply or honour that

undertaking happened when there were other people occupying those
p o s i ti o n s ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I n r e g a r d t o th e H e a d o f C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e t h e t h e - w h il s t t h e H e a d w a s G e n e r a l M d l u l i?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H e w a s s u s p e n d e d a t t h e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s s u s p e n d e d a t t h e ti m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s .

H e w a s a lr e a d y s u s p e n d e d

Page 157 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: But whoever was put in to …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e p l a c e h i m te m p o r a r i ly d u r i n g h is s u s p e n s io n a ls o
did not agree to have the documents handed over?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u w i ll

r e m e m b e r th a t G e n e r a l N g c o b o u s e d t h e - o r s t a te d th a t d o c u m e n ts
w e r e le a k e d s o h e c a n n o t a s s is t u s .

H e w a s g o i n g to a p p r o a c h th e

O ff ic e o f t h e - o f t h e N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r t o g e t c la r i ty. H e a ls o s a i d
10

t h a t th e n M d l u l i - G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n t e r f e r e d a n d h e
a ls o s a id t h a t h e c a n n o t a s s is t u s b e c a u s e o f - h e is n o t i n a p o s i ti o n to
f u l fi l h is m a n d a te a s t h e r e a r e p e o p le t e l l in g h i m w h a t t o d o a n d w h a t
not to do.
T h a t w a s t h e - t h a t is w h a t w a s r a is e d b y G e n e r a l N g c o b o .
N o w th is i s a n e w o n e . T h i s is n o w w h y d o I h a v e th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n in
my possession.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w th e o n e w h o w a s s a y in g th is t o y o u , y o u s a id

w a s Br i g a d i e r Z u l u ? W h o w a s s a y i n g y o u r r e q u e s t w ill n o t b e a t te n d e d
t o ? W h o w a s t h a t ? W h o s a i d th a t ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r I - i f I a m n o t m is ta k e n I - I
cannot

s p e c i fi c a ll y

remember

but

it

would

have

been

e i th e r

G e n e r a l D r a m a t o r B r i g a d ie r Va n G r a a n i f I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y b u t
it w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r e m a r k m a d e to m e . I t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n i n - i n
w r i t in g o r a n y t h i n g l ik e t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a n d y o u w e r e g e tt i n g a r e p o r t fr o m s o m e b o d y e ls e

Page 158 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
n o t t h a t s o m e b o d y fr o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e w a s s a y i n g t h is to y o u ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y b u t t h r o u g h o u t t h i s t i m e th r e e y e a r s y o u

h a v e b e e n tr y in g to g e t t h e s e d o c u m e n ts d e c l a s s i fi e d . Is t h e p o s i t io n
t h a t e v e r y o n e o f t h o s e p e o p l e fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w h o - w o u l d
c o u l d h a v e g iv e n th e a p p r o v a l c o u ld h a v e a p p r o v e d th a t y o u b e g iv e n
t h e d o c u m e n ts .

Every one of them knew that you wanted the

d o c u m e n ts a s p a r t o f a n i n v e s t i g a t io n r e l a t in g to G e n e r a l M d l u l i ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Ye s C h a ir.

All of them knew and

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I - a n d I s p e c i fic a lly b r ie f e d

General Ngcobo. So he knew the extent.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I

d id

not

s p e c if ic a l ly

brief

G e n e r a l Z u lu r e g a r d i n g t h e e x t e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h h e r b u t I d i d
n o t s p e c if ic a l ly b r i e f h e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR

KOBUS

DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

Because

I was

under

th e

i m p r e s s io n s h e w o u ld a t t h a t p o i n t a n d ti m e w h e n I s p o k e t o h e r t h a t
s h e w o u l d k n o w t h e s e r io u s n e s s o f th e a ll e g a t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o , I d id n o t r e c e i v e a n y

Page 159 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d t h e r e a s o n w h y I w a s a p p r o a c h i n g c r i m e i n t e l li g e n c e
f o r t h is w a s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly ; w a s t o g e t t h e d o c u m e n ts d e c l a s s if i e d b u t
w i t h t h e ir a s s is t a n c e . B e c a u s e u lt i m a t e ly t h e d e c i s i o n t o d e c l a s s i fy li e s
w i t h t h e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o , th e a p p r o a c h to c r i m e i n te ll i g e n c e w a s
n o t to g e t d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n b e c a u s e d e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n c a n o n ly b e
o b t a i n e d fr o m t h e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOF SE: Or yes, Chair or if she delegates
someone to do it.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t w h a t y o u w a n t e d fr o m c r i m e in t e l li g e n c e w a s
for them to hand the documents over to you?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELO FSE:

N o , C h a i r I h a d t h e d o c u m e n ts

a lr e a d y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t r e m e m b e r y o u s a id I t h i n k t h e r e a r e s o m e

t h a t y o u h a d w h ic h n e e d e d t o b e d e c l a s s i f ie d b u t t h e r e w e r e s o m e t h a t
y o u d id n o t h a v e w h ic h y o u n e e d i t a s w e l l .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s , C h a ir i t i s t w o f o ld . I t i s t h e

o n e s th a t I h a d I n e e d a s s i s t a n c e in d e c la s s if ic a ti o n a n d t h e o n e s I
d o n ’t h a v e a n e e d d e c l a s s if i e d f o r m a t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d . Yo u

h a v e m a d e a r e m a r k w h ic h I u n d e r s t o o d t o m e a n b e c a u s e o n ly t h e
n a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r c o u l d d e c l a s s i fy o r s o m e b o d y d e l e g a t e d b y h i m
t o d o s o . Yo u r a p p r o a c h to c r i m e in t e l li g e n c e w a s n ’ t a i m e d a t g e t ti n g
t h e d o c u m e n ts d e c l a s s i fi e d b u t i t w a s a i m e d a t g e t t in g th e m t o a g r e e t o
h a n d o v e r t h e d o c u m e n ts to y o u . I s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t ?

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o , C h a ir it is n o t c o m p l e t e ly

correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w h a t i s t h e c o r r e c t p o s i ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e p o s i t io n is t h e f o ll o w i n g . I

a p p r o a c h t h e m t o g e t a d d i ti o n a l d o c u m e n t a t i o n . A n d i n r e s p e c t o f th e
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n I a p p r o a c h t h e m b e c a u s e I w a n t e d t h e ir a s s is t a n c e s o
t h a t w e c a n b e c a u s e I k n e w w h e n t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n w o u l d g o t o t h e
n a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r, h e o r s h e w o u ld s a y th a t b e c a u s e t h a t w o u l d b e
t h e p r u d e n t w a y t o d e a l w i t h t h i s m a t t e r. T h a t th e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u ti n g
10

A u t h o r i ty, th e Pr o s e c u t o r, c r i m e in t e l li g e n c e a s w e ll a s t h e i n v e s ti g a to r
g e t to g e t h e r a n d d e c i d e o n th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a s t o w h a t c a n b e
c la s s if i e d , n o i t c a n n o t b e c l a s s i fi e d . A n d t h a t i s t o m i ti g a te t h e r is k o f
e x p o s i n g p r o j e c t s o r a g e n t s . S o , I h a d … T h a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y I
o p p o s e d t h e m to d o e x a c t ly w h a t I e x p e c t e d t h e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r
w i ll d o to g e t t h e d o c u m e n ts d e c l a s s i fi e d . In th a t s e n s e , I d id n o t g e t
a n y j o y fr o m th e m . I w a s n o t a s s i s te d i n th a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t m e tr y a g a i n . D i d y o u w a n t c r i m e in t e l li g e n c e
o ffic i a ls t o in e ff e c t f a c ili t a t e th e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f th e d o c u m e n t s b y
t h e n a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r ?

20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n te d th e i r c o o p e r a ti o n t o a c h i e v e t h a t o b j e c t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w h a t w e r e t h e y t o d o t h a t w o u ld g iv e y o u th a t

c o o p e r a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, t h e y w o u ld h a v e … I

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
r e q u e s t e d fr o m t h e m t h a t w e s i t t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n in
q u e s t io n t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w h e n w e d e c l a s s i fy t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t t h a t
s p e c i f ic d o c u m e n t w o u ld n o t h a v e a n i m p a c t o n a n a g e n t o r th e p r o j e c t .
I n o t h e r w o r d s , w o u l d n o t n e g a tiv e ly a ff e c t th o s e p r o j e c ts o r th e a g e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A n d if th e r e is r i s k i n v o lv e d t h e n
w e c a n s e e h o w w e c a n m i t ig a t e t h a t s p e c if ic r is k . F o r in s ta n c e , if i t is
a n a g e n t t h is d o c u m e n t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t t h e n i t w i ll a ll o w c r i m e
in t e l li g e n c e t o w i th d r a w t h e a g e n t f r o m w h a te v e r h e is d o in g . A n d a l lo w
10

u s t h e n t o u s e t h e d o c u m e n ts a f te r h e w a s w i th d r a w n . A t l e a s t t h a t k i n d
o f t h i n g t h a t I w a s l o o k i n g a t w h e n s p e a k i n g t o c r i m e i n t e ll i g e n c e
b e c a u s e t h e y a r e th e o n ly o n e s t h a t c a n a s s is t m e w i t h t h a t s i t u a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w o u l d t h e y h a v e f r o m w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i t

s e e m s to m e t h a t y o u w a n te d t o s e e t h e c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n ts b e f o r e
t h e y a r e d e c l a s s i fi e d . Is i t r i g h t? T h a t ’s w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n if y o u s a t
d o w n w i t h t h e m . T h e y w o u ld n e e d t o b r i n g t h e d o c u m e n t s . Yo u w o u l d a l l
lo o k a t t h e m a n d tr y a n d a g r e e c e r t a i n t h in g s . Is th a t r i g h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, o n c e a g a in i t’s t w o f o ld . I

h a d c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t a t i o n w h ic h I r e c e iv e d f r o m G e n e r a l H a n k e l .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: So, I was talking about the ones in
m y p o s s e s s i o n a n d I w a s a ls o t a lk i n g , r e f e r r i n g t o t h e o n e s t h a t t h e y
h a d i n th e ir p o s s e s s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : In o t h e r w o r d s , w h e n th e o n e s t h a t

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t h e y h a d in t h e ir p o s s e s s i o n if t h e r e i s a n a g r e e m e n t th e n t h e y w o u l d
r e l e a s e t h e m t o m e a lr e a d y d e c l a s s i fi e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o , a s f a r a s t h o s e d o c u m e n ts t h a t t h e y h a d
w h ic h y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e w h a t e v e r c o o p e r a t i o n y o u n e e d e d f r o m t h e m d i d
n o t e n t a i l y o u s e e in g th e d o c u m e n ts b e f o r e t h e y w e r e d e c l a s s i fi e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, i t w o u ld h a v e e n ta il e d t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w o u l d h a v e e n t a il e d t h a t.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Be cause it might be that the

d o c u m e n t d o e s n o t h a v e a n y.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Relevance.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

R e le v a n c e . S o , i t w o u l d h a v e

entailed that yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y n o w, h o w d o e s t h i s w o r k in te r m s o f c l a s s i fi e d

d o c u m e n ts ? W o u l d s o m e b o d y i n y o u r p o s i t io n a s p a r t o f t h e H a w k s p a r t
o f t h e S A P S , w o u ld t h e y b e e n t it l e d t o s e e t h o s e d o c u m e n t s b e fo r e t h e y
w e r e d e c l a s s i fi e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s , C h a ir. I f y o u h a v e th e

r e q u is it e c le a r a n c e y o u a r e a ll o w e d to s e e t h e m y e s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w h ic h y o u d i d h a v e ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e y k n e w t h a t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

They issued the clearance

c e r t if ic a te f o r m e .

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y is s u e d t h e c l e a r a n c e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s , s ig n e d b y G e n e r a l M d l u l i .
CHAIRPERSON:
approached

to

Ye s , s o b e fo r e t h e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r w o u l d b e
d e c la s s i fy,

you

w a n te d

to

sit

down

w i th

crime

in t e l li g e n c e , l o o k a t t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d id e n t i fy t h e o n e s th a t w o u l d b e
r e l e v a n t o r i m p o r t a n t f o r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . A n d th e n j o i n tly s e e w h e t h e r
t h e r e w o u l d b e a n y p r o b l e m i f t h e y w e r e d e c l a s s i f ie d . A n d i f t h e r e w a s
agreement

that

they

can

be

d e c l a s s i fi e d

then

the

n a t io n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r w o u l d b e a p p r o a c h e d o n t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t c r i m e
10

in t e l li g e n c e h a s n o p r o b le m w i th d e c l a s s i f i c a ti o n o f th o s e d o c u m e n ts .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. I f I c a n j u s t
m e n ti o n . T h a t is t h e a p p r o a c h t h a t G e n e r a l P h a h la n e to o k w h e n h e w a s
r e q u e s t e d b y th e N PA . S o , t h a t ’s w h y I k n e w th a t w a s g o in g t o b e th e
a p p r o a c h . T h a t’s w h y I a p p r o a c h e d c r i m e i n t e ll ig e n c e f o r e x a c t ly t h a t
purpose.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . A n d t h r o u g h o u t t h i s p e r io d fr o m 2 0 1 2 to 2 0 1 5

F e b r u a r y w h e n y o u w e r e to ld th a t y o u r r e q u e s t w o u l d n o t b e a t t e n d e d
t o . H a d n o b o d y fr o m c r i m e i n t e l li g e n c e e v e r a d v a n c e d a n y r e a s o n w h y
t h e s e d o c u m e n t s s h o u ld n o t b e m a d e a v a i l a b l e t o y o u o r w h y t h e y
20

s h o u l d n o t b e d e c l a s s i fi e d o r w h a t t h e ju s t if ic a ti o n w a s f o r c la s s if y i n g
t h e m i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, I h a v e n e v e r i n w r i t in g

r e c e i v e d a n y c o m m u n ic a t i o n a s t o w h y t h e d o c u m e n t s c a n n o t b e
d e c l a s s i fi e d a p a r t fr o m e x p la in i n g n u m e r o u s o c c a s i o n s w h y I d i d n o t
s t e a l t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n . B e c a u s e t h a t is t h e o n ly t h i n g th a t th e y w e r e

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in t e r e s te d i n . H o w d id I g e t h o ld o f t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d I w a s … A n d th is
t h i n g w a s k e p t o v e r m y h e a d f o r a l o n g t i m e a n d s t il l i s . T h a t th e y w i ll
o p e n u p a c r i m in a l c a s e a g a i n s t m e b e c a u s e I s t o l e t h e d o c u m e n t s .
A l th o u g h , I d o n ’ t g i v e m u c h c r e d e n c e t o t h a t b u t w e ’v e g o t s tr a n g e
ti m e s s o t h in g s c a n h a p p e n b u t i t is s o m e th in g t h a t w a s c a n v a s s e d a t
t h a t s t a g e . A lr e a d y i t w a s c a n v a s s e d in th e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l . It
w a s … E v e r y b o d y k n e w th e s it u a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o , i t w a s v e r y s tr a n g e t o m e t h a t
10

t h a t w o u ld s t il l b e a n i s s u e a t th a t t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v i n g g o n e t h r o u g h t h e s it u a ti o n f o r o v e r, f o r a b o u t
t h r e e y e a r s o r s o 2 0 1 2 t o Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 a n d s e e n t h e la c k o f
c o o p e r a ti o n /r e s i s t a n c e to y o u b e in g g iv e n t h e s e d o c u m e n ts o r t o t h e
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f t h e d o c u m e n ts . W e r e y o u a b l e t o r e a c h s o m e
c o n c l u s i o n a s to w h y i t w a s t h e r e w a s n o c o o p e r a ti o n fo r y o u t o g e t
t h e s e d o c u m e n t s o r g e t t h e m d e c l a s s i fi e d ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir, a s I s a i d fr o m t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n s th a t I h a v e d o n e a s t o g e t h e r w i th t h e i n f o r m a ti o n
p r o v i d e d b y C o lo n e l N a i d o o , i t b e c a m e c l e a r to m e t h a t i t is n o t . T h e
20

in v e s t i g a t io n d id n o t o n ly in c l u d e G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
b u t i t w e n t m u c h w id e r t h a n t h a t a n d i t i n c lu d e d v e r y s e n io r p e o p l e n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly a l s o in s i d e t h e p o l ic e b u t o u ts id e th e p o li c e . A n d I t h i n k
t h a t i s w h a t, I c a n n o t s a y i t i s a f a c t b u t th a t i s w h a t I s u s p e c t a s t o
w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d t h a t is w h y t h i s h a s h a p p e n e d i n th is m a n n e r. Th e r e
is , I c a n n o t s e e th a t G e n e r a l M d l u li i s o r t h a t p e o p l e w il l j u s t r is k t h e ir

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
c a r e e r s j u s t fo r G e n e r a l M d l u li e x c e p t if h e h a s s o m e t h i n g o n t h e m t h a t
we don’t know about.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u r c o n c l u s io n w a s th a t t h is k i n d o f

r e s is t a n c e o r la c k o f c o o p e r a t i o n m u s t b e c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e p o s s i b il i ty
t h a t th is i n v e s t ig a ti o n w o u l d a ff e c t p r o b a b ly o t h e r p e o p l e o t h e r th a n
G e n e r a l M d lu li . A n d s o m e o f t h o s e p e o p l e b e i n g p e o p l e o u ts i d e o f
c r i m e i n t e l li g e n c e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. I p r e v io u s ly
a lr e a d y t e s t i fi e d r e g a r d i n g M r C e c i l B u r d g e s w h o is a m e m b e r o f
10

P a r li a m e n t . T h e r e w a s a d ir e c t i n t e r fe r e n c e b y h i m . T h e s e a r e t h e k i n d
o f th in g s t h a t w il l c o m e o u t d u r i n g t h i s i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d I d o n ’ t th in k
t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n … T h a t i s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y t h i s . I’ m n o t
r e fe r r i n g t o t h a t s p e c i f ic a l ly n o w b u t i t i s e x a m p l e s l ik e t h a t a s t o w h a t
t h is in v e s t i g a t io n w e r e n o t a l l o w e d t o c o n t i n u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

J u s t in c l a r i ty o n th e o n e p o i n t

r e l a ti n g t o t h e c r i m e in t e l li g e n c e i n p u t . To w h a t e x te n t is th e i n p u t o f
c r i m e i n te ll ig e n c e a r e q u ir e m e n t i n o r d e r f o r t h e d o c u m e n ts , c l a s s i fi e d
d o c u m e n ts t o b e d e c l a s s i fi e d ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, i t’s a d i ffic u lt q u e s ti o n to

a n s w e r. I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t it is a r e q u ir e m e n t b u t I t h in k i t w il l a l s o b e
v e r y r e c k l e s s i f th e n a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r d o e s n o t t a k e , d o e s n o t g e t
a d v ic e fr o m th e m in t e r m s o f w h a t c a n o r w h a t c a n n o t b e d e c la s s i f ie d .
B e c a u s e o f t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y c a n i m p a c t o n p r o je c t s a n d a g e n ts .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you. So… [intervenes].

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C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w, o h o k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y, n o , n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e j u s t . Th e d o c u m e n t s t h a t y o u h a d w i t h y o u i n
r e s p e c t o f w h ic h y o u a l s o n e e d e d d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n , y o u h a d lo o k e d a t
t h e m . T h e y h a d b e e n in y o u r p o s i ti o n f o r q u it e s o m e t i m e . W a s th e r e
a n y th in g in t h e m in t e r m s o f th e c o n te n ts t h a t y o u th o u g h t c o u l d a ff e c t
S t a te s e c u r i ty ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I n m y v i e w, n o C h a ir. I t r e l a te d t o
t h e a c q u is i ti o n o f a s s e ts . I t i s a s u p p ly - c h a in m a n a g e m e n t is s u e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o , i t d i d n o t r e l a t e t o a s p e c if ic

p r o j e c t o r a s p e c i f ic a g e n t. T h e o n ly a g e n t s o r s o - c a l le d a g e n t th a t w a s
a ffe c te d b y is th is w h e r e th e fa m i ly a n d f r ie n d s o f t h o s e , o f t h e t h r e e
in d i v i d u a ls th a t w e r e a p p o i n te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : W h i c h I in v e s t i g a t e d . S o , i n te r m s
o f t h e r e s t d e a l w i t h t h e m . I k e p t a w a y fr o m t h a t s p e c i fic a lly
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o , d i d y o u fo r m a n y v i e w b a s e d o n th e c o n te n ts
of
20

th e

documents

th a t

you

had

with

you

w h ic h

s ti ll

needed

d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n ? D id y o u f o r m a n y v i e w a s to w h e t h e r t h e r e w o u l d h a v e
b e e n a n y p r o p e r g r o u n d s f o r t h e m t o h a v e b e e n c la s s if i e d i n th e f ir s t
place?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, t h a t i s w h e r e I t h i n k t h e

o v e r c la s s i f ic a ti o n t o o k p l a c e w h ic h is u n n e c e s s a r y. W h e n i t r e l a t e s t o
p a y m e n t o f a n a g e n t o r s o m e t h i n g in te r m s o f a p r o j e c t t h e n

Page 167 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n i s n o r m a ll y s e c r e t o r to p - s e c r e t . B u t th e s e c l a i m s d i d
n o t s p e c i fic a lly r e l a t e t o a n i n d iv id u a l o r a p r o j e c t . It w a s g e n e r ic , t h e
a p p lic a ti o n s . T h e v e h ic le f o r, i f I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t ly t h e m o t iv a ti o n
f o r th e v e h ic l e f o r a G e n e r a l M d lu li i t j u s t s t a t e s it is a v e h ic le t h a t i s
n e e d f o r h is o ffi c e . T h e r e is n o th i n g s e n s i tiv e a b o u t it a p a r t fr o m th e
f a c t t h a t y o u d o n ’ t w a n t t h e v e h ic l e r e g is tr a ti o n n u m b e r, y o u d o n ’ t w a n t
it t o b e k n o w n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

B u t G e n e r a l M d l u l i is a p u b li c

fi g u r e . S o , h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n in r e s p e c t o f t h a t h e w o u ld h a v e b e e n
h is o w n w o r s t e n e m y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Because he would drive with a

c r i m e in t e l li g e n c e v e h ic le w h o m ig h t o r m ig h t n o t b e r e g is t e r e d i n h is
n a m e o r i n a c o m p a n y ’s n a m e w h ic h w o u l d t h e n l e a d t o t h a t in i ts e lf is
a lr e a d y a s e c u r i ty r i s k .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , b a s e d o n w h a t y o u k n o w n a m e ly i n t e r m s o f t h e

c o n te n ts o f t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u h a v e r e q u ir e d c l a s s i fi c a t io n , a r e
y o u a b le t o s a y w h e t h e r th e r e f u s a l t o c o o p e r a t e h a s n o l e g i ti m a t e
20

grounds?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I ’ m s a y in g t h a t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e s a y in g t h a t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h i s a n a b u s e o f p o w e r ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. I t is a b u s e

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
o f p o w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h e n y o u r e c e iv e d i n f o r m a ti o n

d u r i n g F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 , t h e c r i m e i n te ll ig e n c e t h a t y o u r e q u e s t w il l n o t
b e a tt e n d e d t o , w h a t d o y o u d o a b o u t i t ? D id i t s t o p y o u o r d i d y o u
p r o c e e d to t a k e f u r t h e r s te p s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o , C h a ir i t d i d n ’ t s t o p m e . I tr i e d
a g a in . As I s a i d , I c o n t a c t e d B r i g a d i e r C h il i. H e w a s t h e le g a l o ffi c e r o f
C I f o r a s s is t a n c e .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o r r y, j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d i t’s

B r i g a d ie r D e n n is C h il i .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k th a t w o u l d b e C h i l i.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h i li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k th e c o r r e c t p r o n u n c ia t io n w o u ld b e C h i li .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A p o lo g i e s f o r th a t t o C h il i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C h i li .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t l o o k s li k e a C h il i.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e a b l e t o s a y C e l e . Is n ’ t i t ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s , I ’ m a b le t o s a y th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , if y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y C e l e t h e r e ’s a g o o d c h a n c e
y o u c a n s a y C h i li a s w e ll .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h i li .
CHAIRPERSON:

C h il i . I f y o u p r a c t ic e it a f e w t i m e s y o u w il l g e t i t

r ig h t .

Page 169 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I w i ll g e t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, r i g h t . Ye s , c o n t in u e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l e a s e c o n t in u e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r, h e i n d i c a t e s t o m e t h a t h e
d i d n ’ t f o r e s e e a n y p r o b le m a n d b u t I h a d t o tr a n s m i t m y r e q u e s t b y t h e
o ffic e o f th e a c ti n g n a t io n a l h e a d o f D P C I w h e r e a t th a t ti m e w a s
G e n e r a l M a th a n d a z o B e n n y N h l e m e z a . S o , i n fo ll o w i n g u p o n t h a t i n
e a r ly F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I ’ m s o r r y. N o w I h e a r, I s e e t h e r e i s a r e fe r e n c e t o

G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a . H a d h e b e c o m e h e a d o f D P C I in t h e m e a n ti m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s , C h a ir h e d i d . U n f o r t u n a t e l y,

a t t h a t s p e c i f ic p a r t o f t h e w h e r e w e d e a l w i t h t h a t i s a li t t le b i t l a t e r i n
t h e a ffi d a v it . B u t h e d i d b e c o m e t h e h e a d i n m o r e o r le s s th e e n d o f
December 2014.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

He replaced General Dramat was

s u s p e n d e d a n d h e r e p la c e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I c a n ta k e .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O h , I t h i n k t h a t p a r a g r a p h , i t ’s ju s t t h a t it c o m e s

i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r a p a r a g r a p h th a t r e f e r s t o Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 o r d i d y o u
s a y h e c a m e , h e b e c a m e h e a d e n d o f 2 0 1 4 ? M a y b e t h a t p a r a g r a p h is .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A t t h e e n d o f 2 0 1 4 . T h a t is c o r r e c t ,
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s o th a t p a r a g r a p h i s ju s t a w r o n g l y l o c a t e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t is c o r r e c tl y lo c a t e d b u t in t h e

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
c o n te x t o f w h a t I a m d i s c u s s in g h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Ye s ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Please proceed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , B r i g a d i e r C h i li s a i d h e d id n ’t s e e a n y p r o b le m i n
t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f t h e d o c u m e n ts . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. I m u s t j u s t
f o ll o w th e p r o c e d u r e th r o u g h t h e o ff ic e o f t h e n a ti o n a l h e a d o f t h e
DPCI.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , d i d y o u t h e n d o t h a t ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t h e n p r o m p t a m e e ti n g w i t h

G e n e r a l Z u l u a n d G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a i n P r e t o r ia . I t o ld t h e m a b o u t
n u m e r o u s w r i tt e n r e q u e s t f o r d e c l a s s i fi c a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a y th e m e e ti n g n o w w a s , i t w a s y o u r s o f t ,

G e n e r a l Z u lu a n d w h o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: General Nhlemeza.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e th r e e o f y o u ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

G e n e r a l Zu lu a c k n o w l e d g e d

r e c e i p t o f th e r e q u e s t b u t i n d ic a te d th a t s u c h a r e q u e s t s h o u ld c o m e
fr o m th e o ff ic e o f G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a . G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a i n fo r m e d
G e n e r a l Z u l u t h a t h e w o u ld fa c i li t a t e s u c h a r e q u e s t t h r o u g h h i s o ffi c e .
G e n e r a l Z u lu … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t m e e ti n g w o u ld h a v e b e e n a r o u n d F e b r u a r y

2015

Page 171 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: It is.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it is 16 February okay?
MR KOBUS DEM EYER ROELOF SE: It is on the 16th of February 2015.
T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
was

o n ly

th e

n a t io n a l

G e n e r a l Z u l u i n fo r m e d m e t h a t i t

Commissioner

who

could

d e c l a s s i fy

the

d o c u m e n ts . I i n f o r m e d G e n e r a l Z u l u th a t I k n o w t h e p r o c e s s t h a t n e e d s
t o b e fo ll o w e d a n d t h e r e q u e s t i n th e d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n . B u t I h a d s ta t e d
10

a s m u c h i n m y r e q u e s t a n d th a t I h a d s ta t e d a s m u c h in m y r e q u e s t t o
B r i g a d ie r N t u li o n t h e 2 3 r d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 . I a l s o e x p la i n e d t o h e r t h a t
I

had

approached

her

o ffi c e

not

to

i m m e d i a t e ly

d e c l a s s i fy

the

d o c u m e n ts b u t t o s t a r t a p r o c e s s i n w h ic h a r is k a s s e s s m e n t c a n b e
d o n e i n o r d e r t o a s s is t h e r t o a p p ly h e r m i n d . M e a n i n g h e r m in d , I’ m
r e fe r r i n g n o w to th e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. I l e ft t h e m e e t i n g u n d e r t h e
i m p r e s s io n th a t t h e r e a s o n f o r th e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n r e q u e s t h a d b e e n
c la r i fi e d a n d t h e r e q u e s t w il l b e d e a l t w i t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll , I’ m n o t s u r e , w h y d i d y o u th i n k t h a t ? W h y
d i d y o u th in k th a t t h e r e a s o n f o r o r y o u s a y i t’s th e r e a s o n , i t’s y o u r
20

r e a s o n fo r t h e r e q u e s t th a t y o u s a y y o u t h o u g h t h a d b e e n c l a r i f ie d ? I n
w h ic h

case,

you

would

have

been

the

person

who

provided

c la r i fi c a t io n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y, a l r i g h t . Ye s , b u t t h e r e a s o n t h a t h a d b e e n

g iv e n t h e r e , n o r e a s o n h a d b e e n g iv e n t h e r e to j u s ti f y w h y a f te r th a t

Page 172 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
p o i n t y o u h a d n o t b e e n g iv e n c o o p e r a ti o n . Is t h a t r ig h t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o , C h a ir. N o th i n g w a s s a i d to m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Yo u w e r e j u s t t o ld th a t t h e r e q u e s t

m u s t c o m e t h r o u g h G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a ’s o ff ic e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u h a d n e v e r b e e n t o l d th a t b e f o r e a l l th o s e t w o
and a half or more years?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o , C h a ir. A l l t h e o t h e r r e q u e s t s

c a m e t h r o u g h t h e v a r i o u s o ff ic e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d th e r e w a s n o o b je c t io n t o .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A n d t h e r e w a s n o o b j e c ti o n t o i t . In
t h is s p e c i fic i n s t a n c e w h e n I s p o k e to B r i g a d ie r N t u l i , i t w a s a r r a n g e d
b y B r i g a d i e r Va n G r a a n . I w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s io n i t h a d , h e a ls o
s p o k e t o G e n e r a l Zu l u p r io r t o m e m e e ti n g h i m . I d o n o t k n o w if h e h a d
p r i o r m e e t i n g s w i t h G e n e r a l Z u lu b e f o r e I s p o k e to h i m . H e m u s t h a v e
g iv e n th a t r e q u e s t to G e n e r a l Zu l u b e c a u s e h e w a s a w a r e o f t h e
r e q u e s t . A n d s h e t h e n s a i d , t h a t I m u s t j u s t , I m u s t r e fe r t h e r e q u e s t to
h e r v i a G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a ’s o ffic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

But pre… I mean General Mdluli was, General

N h l e m e z a w a s ta k i n g th e p l a c e o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t . Pr e v i o u s r e q u e s t
t h a t h a d c o m e t h r o u g h t o G e n e r a l Zu l u h a d c o m e t h r o u g h fr o m G e n e r a l
D r a m a t’s o ff ic e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And she had not cooperated.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.

Page 173 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , th e f a c t t h a t th is r e q u e s t h a d n o t c o m e t h r o u g h

t h e o ffi c e o f th e h e a d o f D P C I n o t h a v e b e e n t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e r e h a d
b e e n n o c o o p e r a ti o n .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROEL OFSE: But I had to jump the hoops. So, I
t h o u g h t I w il l j u m p th r o u g h t h i s h o o p a s w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y o u w a n t e d t o s e e i f t h e r e w i ll b e a c h a n g e o f

a tt i tu d e n o w.
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t th e n t r a n s p i r e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, o n t h e 1 0 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 ,
t h e N D P P i n fo r m e d G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d C o l o n e l B a r n a r d t h a t t h e y w il l
a p p e a r i n t h e S C C C h a i r ’s c o m m e r c ia l c r i m e s c o u r t o n t h e 1 s t o f A p r i l
2015.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a l s o b u t a ls o in
March 2015?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I n M a r c h 2 0 1 5 … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll , h a n g o n . B e fo r e w e g e t th e r e , w e h a v e g o t t o

f o ll o w u p o n t h is m e e t in g . A t t h e e n d o f t h is m e e t in g w h ic h in v o lv e d
y o u r s e l f , G e n e r a l Zu lu a n d G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a . T h e m e e t i n g e n d e d o n
t h e b a s is t h a t t h e r e q u e s t h a d t o b e m a d e t h r o u g h G e n e r a l N h le m e z a . I
w o u ld i m a g i n e t h a t a f te r t h a t m e e t in g , y o u w o u l d h a v e p u r s u e d th a t
t h r o u g h t h a t o ffi c e . D i d y o u a n d i f y o u d i d w h a t h a p p e n e d ?

Page 174 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, I d id . I d id n o t r e c e iv e

a n y th in g b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON: And did General Nhlemeza send a request too?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, I d o n ’ t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : W h a t I d o k n o w is I r e c e iv e d f r o m
G e n e r a l M o o d l e y in M a r c h 2 0 1 5 w h e r e h e r e q u e s te d m e to p r o v i d e a
r e p o r t e x p l a i n i n g w h o h a d g i v e n m e t h e m a n d a t e a n d a u t h o r i ty to
in v e s t i g a t e
10

crime

in t e l li g e n c e ;

the

crime

i n t e l li g e n c e

criminal

in v e s t i g a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y b e f o r e w e g e t t h e r e , l e t ’s j u s t fi n i s h t h e o n e

p a r t . S o , a f t e r t h e m e e t in g th a t y o u h a d h a d t h e t h r e e o f y o u y o u r s e l f,
G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d G e n e r a l Z u l u y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o p u r s u e th r o u g h
G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a ’s o ffi c e t h e r e q u e s t . Yo u s a y y o u d i d d o t h a t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , d id y o u d o t h a t b y w a y o f a l e t te r, e m a i l o r

w h a t e v e r th a t y o u s e n t t o G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b e c a u s e
I c a n n o t f in d t h e d o c u m e n t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : R e la t i n g t o th a t b u t w h a t I’ v e d o n e
is I h a v e s e n t t h e s a m e r e q u e s t t h r o u g h to G e n e r a l N h le m e z a t h a t I
h a v e a l r e a d y g iv e n t o M d lu li a n d N tu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d d i d h e e v e r r e p o r t b a c k t o y o u t o s a y h e h a d
s e n t a l e t te r o r p a s s e d i t o n to G e n e r a l Zu l u ?

Page 175 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o , C h a ir. I d i d n o t r e c e i v e a n y

le t t e r. T h e f ir s t l e t te r I r e c e i v e d w a s i n o r r e q u e s t t h a t I r e c e i v e d w a s i n
March 2015.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w t h e o n e fr o m Br i g a d i e r M o o d l e y ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w a r o u n d a b o u t, w h e n w a s i t w h e n th is m e e ti n g

w a s h e l d th e r e o f th e t h r e e o f y o u ? A r e y o u a b l e t o r e m e m b e r ?
February 2015, March 2015?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

It was on the 16th of February

2 0 1 5 , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , 1 6 F e b r u a r y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t, C h a ir. P a r a g r a p h

190.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o , y o u a n d Br i g a d ie r M o o d l e y, w h a t w a s h is
p o s i ti o n a g a i n ? W h e r e d o e s h e f i t i n ? A g a i n , j u s t r e m i n d m e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, h e w a s m y, h e w a s t h e h e a d
o f A C T T a t t h e t i m e a n t ic o r r u p ti o n ta s k t e a m th a t f e l l . H e w a s t h e d ir e c t
h e a d . S o , h e w a s m y d i r e c t h e a d . H e w a s th e n a t i o n a l h e a d o f t h e
a n t ic o r r u p t io n t a s k t e a m b a s e d i n Pr e to r i a .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e u n d e r h is s e c ti o n o r u n i t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , h e w o u l d b e th e p e r s o n y o u r e p o r t e d t o ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s , C h a ir. I r e p o r t … N o r m a l ly i n
t h e ti m e o f G e n e r a l D r a m a t I w o u l d r e p o r t t o b o th o f th e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

Page 176 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h e y w o u l d g iv e m e a c a ll a n d I

w o u ld r e p o r t t o b o t h o f th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B u t u lt i m a t e ly, I r e p o r t e d t o

G e n e r a l D r a m a t . W i th G e n e r a l N h le m e z a I w a s r e p o r t in g to Br ig a d i e r
M o o d l e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n ly ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O n ly. Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w s o , b y th e t i m e y o u g o t t h is r e q u e s t fr o m
10

B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y i n M a r c h , y o u s a y G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a h a d n o t c o m e
b a c k t o y o u t o t e l l y o u w h e t h e r h e h a d p a s s e d o n th e r e q u e s t , y o u r
request to General Zulu?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o , C h a ir. H e h a d n ’ t c o m e b a c k t o
me at that time, no.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y a n d th e n y o u g o t th is r e q u e s t fr o m

B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y. O k a y j u s t t a lk a b o u t i t.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r, t h e r e q u e s t t h a t I r e c e i v e d
fr o m Br i g a d i e r M o o d l e y is I h a v e t o p r o v i d e t h e m w it h a r e p o r t a s t o
who
20

had

g iv e n

me

the

m a n d a t e , a u t h o r i ty

to

i n v e s ti g a t e

crime

in t e l li g e n c e c r i m i n a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n s . Br ig a d ie r M o o d l e y in f o r m e d m e th a t
G e n e r a l N h le m e z a r e q u e s te d t h e i n fo r m a t io n . I w a s n o t p r o v i d e d w i th
t h e r e a s o n f o r th e r e q u e s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s th is s tr a n g e to y o u t h a t y o u s h o u l d g e t t h is

in s t r u c t i o n t o p r o v i d e s u c h a r e p o r t o r e x p l a n a ti o n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r, w h a t I c a n s t a te r e g a r d i n g

Page 177 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y, h e a ls o d id n o t k n o w t h e r e a s o n fo r t h e r e p o r t.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

What I can state regarding

B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y, h e a ls o d i d n o t k n o w t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e r e p o r t b u t i t
w a s s t r a n g e t o m e . B u t f o l lo w in g f r o m t h e p r e v io u s d is c u s s i o n t h a t I
h a d … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, I’ m s o r r y, I n e e d t o f o l lo w t h a t , y o u s a y h e
did not know what?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

N o w h a t I a m s a y in g i s t h a t w h e n

B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y a s k e d m e fo r t h i s r e p o r t , a s r e q u e s t e d b y G e n e r a l
N h l e m e z a h e a ls o d id n ’t h a v e a n y r e a s o n s – n o r e a s o n s w a s p r o v id e d
t o h i m a s to w h y h e n e e d s to a s k m e f o r t h is r e p o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, this didn’t come from him as such, he was just –
he was a conduit.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

He was a conduit.

The person who wanted this report was General

Nhlemeza?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s w h a t h e to ld y o u ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d t h a t is w h a t h e t o ld m e a n d

b a s e d o n t h a t I p r o v i d e d B r i g a d ie r M o o d le y w i t h t h e r e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a h a d b e e n w i t h y o u a t t h e
m e e ti n g w it h G e n e r a l Z u l u , I w o u l d h a v e i m a g i n e d t h a t b e f o r e t h a t
m e e ti n g h e w o u l d h a v e h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h y o u w h e r e y o u w o u ld h a v e
b r i e f e d h i m w h a t t h i s w a s a l l a b o u t , d i d th a t h a p p e n ?

Page 178 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir a n d . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n ’ t g e t a c h a n c e t o g iv e h i m a b r ie f in g b e fo r e
t h a t m e e ti n g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I d i d b r i e f G e n e r a l

N h l e m e z a I a m n o t s u r e i f I s p e a k a b o u t t h is l a t e r in m y a ffi d a v i t , b u t I
d i d g i v e h i m a b r i e fi n g , a f u ll b r i e fi n g , e x p l a i n in g e x a c t ly w h a t w a s th e
a l le g a ti o n s , a n d th e i n v e s t i g a t io n .

He got very perturbed with me, very

a n g r y a n d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t is a ft e r t h e m e e t in g ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t w a s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r y o u c a n ’t r e m e m b e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t w a s – th a t I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r,

I th in k i t w a s ju s t a f t e r t h e m e e t i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

B u t I w il l h a v e t o g o b a c k to m y

a ffi d a v i t a n d lis t e n a n d I w i ll s e e e x a c tl y w h a t d a t e d id I p u t d o w n
there.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y s o y o u p r e p a r e d a r e p o r t i n a c c o r d a n c e

w i t h t h e r e q u e s t t h a t Br ig a d i e r M o o d l e y h a d t o ld y o u a b o u t ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , o k a y d o y o u w a n t t o t a k e fr o m t h e r e M s

S e p te m b e r ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir. I d o n o t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e w e a r e a t f iv e p a s t , I t h i n k fr o m s i d e I c a n tr y t o
g o u p t o fiv e , M r R o e l o fs e is t h a t fi n e w i th y o u ?

Page 179 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t ’s fi n e w i t h m e C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s w i t h y o u , is i t fi n e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A b s o l u t e ly f in e C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t ’s tr y a n d c o n ti n u e , y e s o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If I can then take you to Annexure

K D R 3 8 w h ic h i s – s t a r ts a t p a r a g r a p h – p a g e 3 7 1 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.
T h i s a p p e a r s t o b e a n e m a i l th a t i s

authored by yourself sent on 19th March 2015 at 15:39, sent to K
10

M o o d l e y, B r ig a d i e r a n d t h e r e a r e t w o i n d iv id u a ls w h o a r e c c ’d w i t h o n e
a tt a c h m e n t .

I t a p p e a r s t h a t t h i s p a r t ic u l a r c o m m u n ic a ti o n n o t o n l y

a tt a c h e s t h e d o c u m e n t w h ic h y o u p r e p a r e d , b u t c a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d
p a r a g r a p h in t o t h e r e c o r d p le a s e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I w i ll d o s o C h a ir, p a r a g r a p h 3 :

“I would also ...”
T h a t is th e p a r a g r a p h th a t y o u ’r e r e f e r r i n g t o ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
“ I w o u l d a ls o l ik e t o m a k e a fo r m a l r e q u e s t t o b r i e f G e n e r a l
20

N h l e m e z a r e g a r d i n g t h i s m a t t e r.

H e n e e d s to u n d e r s t a n d th e

e s s e n c e o f th e m a tt e r a n d t h a t i t is p u r e ly r e la t e d o n – fu r t h e r
r e l a t e d p u r e ly r e l a te d to a l l e g e d c r i m i n a l a c ti v i ti e s .

One

c a n n o t c o n t in u o u s ly r e h a s h t h e s a m e is s u e s o v e r a n d o v e r
a g a in . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f I c a n t h e n a s k y o u t o t u r n to th e

Page 180 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
n e x t A n n e x u r e , w h ic h i s A n n e x u r e 3 9 , b e g i n n i n g o n p a g e 3 7 3 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
document

th a t

is

authored

by

T h is a p p e a r s a g a i n t o b e a
yourself

d a te d

3

February

2014

a d d r e s s e d to t h e h e a d o f d i v i s i o n C r i m e In t e ll i g e n c e , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, th is is a

d r a f t r e p o r t th a t I d r e w u p a n d p r o v i d e d t o G e n e r a l – to B r i g a d ie r
M o o d l e y fo r h is s ig n a tu r e b e f o r e i t w e n t t o G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Do you know whether or not your

c o m m u n ic a ti o n w a s i n f a c t s e n t to t h e o ffic e o f G e n e r a l N h le m e z a
t h r o u g h t h e o ff ic e o f Br i g a d i e r M o o d l e y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I c a n n o t a t t h is p o i n t

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e y o u s h o u l d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e w o u ld h a v e s e n t it t h r o u g h , I

c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r I r e c e iv e d a n y c o n f ir m a ti o n o f t h e d o c u m e n t ,
because later on he does speak to this.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o l e t m e t a k e y o u th e n t o

p a r a g r a p h 1 9 4 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

H a n g o n , b e fo r e t h a t , I s a w t h a t y o u s a i d y o u

p r e p a r e d t h e d o c u m e n t a s i f i t w a s h is , t h a t is B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y, s o
did I see that the document appears to have your name, have I lost you
o r .. .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o , n o y o u a r e q u i te c o r r e c t

C h a ir.

Page 181 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s , s o I th o u g h t if y o u h a d p r e p a r e d it a s i f it

w a s c o m in g fr o m h is o ffi c e y o u w o u l d h a v e h is n a m e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I p r e p a r e d i t a s i f fr o m Br ig a d i e r

M o o d l e y ’s o ff ic e b u t I w o u l d b e t h e p e r s o n t h a t w o u ld b e o n th e le f t
s id e t o p a s th e p e r s o n t o b e c o n t a c t e d i f t h e r e is a n e n q u ir y.
CHAIRPERSON:

But

u n le s s

we

–

unless

I

am

confusing

the

d o c u m e n ts , t h e o n e t h a t w e j u s t l o o k e d a t I t h i n k h a s y o u r n a m e a t t h e
b o t t o m , w h e r e I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d y o u t o p u t B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y ’s
n a m e i f t h e i d e a w a s th a t y o u w e r e ju s t d r a ft i n g it f o r h i m .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

C h a ir d o y o u r e f e r to p a g e

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: What page were we on?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

375.

CHAIRPERSON: The one we have just looked at?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir, t h a t ’s t h e e n d o f th a t

p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t , s ig n e d o ff b y Mr R o e l o fs e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I t h i n k w h a t h a p p e n e d is I

u s e d o n e o f t h e o l d d o c u m e n ts t h a t I h a d , o n e o f t h e d r a f ts , s o t h is w a s
b e i n g c o r r e c te d b y B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y b e fo r e h e s e n t i t o ff G e n e r a l
20

Nhlemeza.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t , s o y o u – w h a t y o u e x p e c te d w a s th a t h e
w o u ld c o n v e r t t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u p r o v id e d to b e o n h is le t t e r h e a d s
a n d th e n h e w i ll p u t h i s n a m e a t t h e e n d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, h e w o u ld

h a v e g i v e n i t t o h is a s s is ta n t .

Page 182 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

To d o t h a t – t o d o th o s e c h a n g e s

y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r h e d id t h a t a n d

passed that and sent that to General Nhlemeza or do you know?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair he did say to me that he did

it .
CHAIRPERSON: He did so yes.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

I d i d n o t s e e a c o n f ir m a t io n b u t

h e d i d i n f o r m m e t h a t h e d id s e n d i t o n to G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o g o in g b a c k t o p a g e 5 7 o f

y o u r a ff i d a v i t d i d y o u f o l lo w u p w i t h Br i g a d i e r M o o d l e y i n r e g a r d to t h i s
c o m m u n ic a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir o n t h e 3 0 t h o f M a r c h I

s e n t a n e m a il t o B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y r e q u e s ti n g f e e d b a c k .

Brigadier

M o o d l e y i n fo r m e d m e th a t h e w a s a ls o a w a i ti n g f e e d b a c k in r e s p e c t o f
t h e d o c u m e n t th a t I p r o v id e d , o r t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t h e p r o v i d e d a s w a s
r e q u e s t e d . A t t h e ti m e I h a d t o a t t e n d t o t w o m a t t e r s t h a t w e r e d u e i n
20

c o u r t o n th e 1 s t o f A p r il 2 0 1 5 a n d t h e 2 n d o f A p r il 2 0 1 5 r e s p e c t iv e l y.
T h e o n e m a t t e r r e l a t e d t o t h e p e n d i n g p r o s e c u ti o n o f C o lo n e l B a r n a r d
a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s , w h ic h w a s a l r e a d y b e fo r e C o u r t, a n d t h e o t h e r
m a t t e r r e l a t e d to t h e r e - e n r o l m e n t o f t h e G e n e r a l M d l u l i m a tt e r o n t h e
1st of 2015.
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t ’s g o b a c k t o y o u r r e p o r t t h a t w a s r e q u e s t e d b y

Page 183 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a t h r o u g h B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y, a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r
e v i d e n c e . . . [i n d is t in c t] w a n t e d t o k n o w w h e r e y o u g o t th e a u t h o r i ty fr o m
t o i n v e s ti g a t e C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e p e o p l e , is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g c o r r e c t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w a s t h a t s o m e t h i n g – is t h a t t h e n o r m a l k i n d o f
thing that the Head of the Hawks would ask any member of the Hawks
w h o w a s d o i n g a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
within
10

the

SAPS

there

is

a

C h a i r I t h i n k a t t h is p o i n t in t i m e

m i s c o n c e p t io n

as

to

what

–

the

m is c o n c e p ti o n a s t o m a n a g e m e n t ’s r o l e i n in v e s t i g a t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n o r a c r i m i n a l

in v e s t i g a t io n is c o n d u c t e d in te r ms o f t h e C r i m i n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t , t h e
C o n s t i tu t io n a n d th e S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e A c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o w t h e r e is a g r o w i n g c o n c e r n i n

m e r e g a r d in g t h a t i n t h a t s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t t h in k s s o m e ti m e s th a t
t h e y a r e t h e i n d iv id u a l s t h a t w i ll t e l l y o u w h a t t o a n d w h e n t o
in v e s t i g a t e s o m e t h i n g , n o t t a k i n g i n t o a c c o u n t t h e v a r io u s A c ts t h a t
20

d o e s e x is t a n d th a t d o e s d e a l w i th t h is .

S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th a t

w a s h i s s t a n d p o i n t f o r a s k i n g t h is , b u t h e w a s w e lc o m e t o a s k t h e
q u e s t io n a n d I w o u l d h a v e e x p la in e d t o h i m b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o th i n g
u n t o w a r d in t e r m s o f th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n i ts e l f .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , w e ll I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t q u e s t io n t o h a v e b e e n

b a s e d o n a n u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e h a d a u th o r it y to

Page 184 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
in v e s t i g a t e a n d t h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e n e e d e d s o m e b o d y t o a u th o r is e y o u
t o i n v e s ti g a t e , i s t h a t h o w y o u u n d e r s t o o d it a s w e ll , t h a t q u e s t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
u n d e r s t o o d it .

T h a t i s s o C h a ir, t h a t is h o w I

I f t h e r e ’s a – i f a c r i m e h a s b e e n c o m m i t t e d t h e

a u t h o r i s a t io n t o in v e s t i g a t e t h a t f o l l o w s fr o m t h e Ac t s d o e s n o t f o ll o w
fr o m a m e m b e r fr o m S A P S s a y in g n o w y o u c a n in v e s t i g a t e t h a t o r n o w
y o u c a n ’ t , i t fa ll s w i t h i n t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e D P C I, I w a s r e q u e s t e d b y
G e n e r a l D r a m a t to d o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n , s o t o m e th e r e w a s n o t e v e n –
it w a s a n o n - is s u e .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

M m m , n o w h o w d i d y o u r e s p o n d to t h is q u e s ti o n in

t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u p r e p a r e d , w i t h o u t r e a d i n g , i t ’s ju s t t h e g is t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir w h a t I ’v e d o n e is i n t h a t

r e p o r t I w o u ld h a v e e x p l a i n e d t o h i m a g a in t h e b a c k g r o u n d a s to th is
in v e s t i g a t io n in o t h e r w o r d s a s f r o m A u g u s t 2 0 11 , h o w t h e in v e s ti g a t io n
came

a b o u t,

how

we

were

approached

by

members

of

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e a n d w h a t w e s u b s e q u e n tly f o u n d a f te r s p e a k i n g t o t h e m
a n d o u r fu r t h e r in v e s ti g a t io n , t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e b a c k g r o u n d o f
m y le t t e r, to g e th e r w i th t h e a g r e e m e n t w i t h S A P S t h e tw o d i ff e r e n t
d e p a r t m e n ts , C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e a n d t h e H a w k s , a s h a p p e n e d in I t h i n k
20

it w a s S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 .

T h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e b a s i s f o r, o r t h e

b a c k g r o u n d a s t o my r e p o r t to h i m th a t – b e c a u s e t h a t w o u l d h a v e
c o v e r e d t h e m a n d a te a s w e l l a s w h y a r e w e i n v e s ti g a t i n g t h is s p e c i fic
m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e n Mr R o e lo fs e w i th t h e s e

Page 185 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
p e n d i n g p r o s e c u ti o n s a g a i n s t b o t h C o l o n e l B a r n a r d a n d G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s a n d a ls o w i th t h e r e - e n r o l m e n t o f t h e m a t t e r a g a i n s t G e n e r a l
M d lu li is i t t o b e u n d e r s t o o d t h a t a n u r g e n c y w a s b e in g – w a s c r e a t e d
d u e to t h e s e l o o m i n g p r o s e c u ti o n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir th is m a t te r t h a t w a s

b e i n g , w e w e r e i n s tr u c te d t o r e - e n r o l t h e m a t te r a n d i t w a s b a s e d o n
the Supreme Court of Appeal decision, so it becomes very important
that we adhered to what the Supreme Court has decided.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d s o it b e c a m e v e r y c r it ic a l t h a t

t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n a t t h is p o in t i n ti m e h a d t o b e d e c l a s s i fi e d b e c a u s e
w e h a v e t o c o n t i n u e w i t h t h e p r o s e c u ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

So because of that I then asked

B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y to r e s u b m it t h e – m y 2 3 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 l e t te r w h ic h
w a s g i v e n t o B r i g a d i e r M d l u l i t o G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a t o e n s u r e th a t h is
o ffic e w o u l d f o r w a r d t h e r e q u e s t fo r a s s i s t a n c e to C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .
B r i g a d ie r M o o d le y t o l d m e t h a t h e d i d s e n d i t t h r o u g h t o t h e o ff ic e o f
General Nhlemeza.
20

I do

not know

whether

General Nhlemeza

f o r w a r d e d t h a t r e q u e s t to C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e , I h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d a n y
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t i t w a s o r w a s n o t fo r w a r d e d .
O n t h e 2 8 t h o f A p r il I r e q u e s te d a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e N a ti o n a l
P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty, G e n e r a l N h le m e z a a n d m y s e lf t o d i s c u s s t h e r e e n r o l m e n t o f th e . . . [i n d i s t i n c t ] m a t t e r, t h e M d l u l i B a r n a r d c r i m i n a l
m a t t e r.

Page 186 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t b y t h is ti m e h a d i t a l r e a d y b e e n r e - e n r o l le d o r n o t
yet?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t h a d b e e n r e - e n r o ll e d C h a ir

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r 1 A p r i l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t w a s a lr e a d y o n t h e r o ll f o r a

m o n th a t t h a t p o i n t i n ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

I a ls o d i d n o t r e c e iv e a n y

f e e d b a c k , t h e p r o p o s e d m e e ti n g n e v e r t o o k p l a c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d d u r in g M a y

2015?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

I n M a y 2 0 1 5 Br i g a d ie r v a n G r a a n

c o n ta c t e d m e a n d in f o r m e d m e t h a t h i s l e g a l o ffi c e h a d r e c e iv e d
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m G e n e r a l Z u l u r e g a r d in g m y r e q u e s t t o d e c l a s s i fy
t h e d o c u m e n ts w h i c h h a d – w h i c h h e t h e n f o r w a r d e d t o m e o n t h e 1 4 t h
of May 2015.
Annexure KD40.

A c o p y o f t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e is a t t a c h e d a s p e r
I t a p p e a r s fr o m t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t – a n d i n

t e r m s o f p a r a g r a p h 1 9 7 . 1 t h a t G e n e r a l Fl ip J a c o b s , P C J a c o b s , H e a d
20

O p e r a t io n a l L e g a l S u p p o r t a t t h e D i v is i o n L e g a l S e r v ic e s a n d P o l ic y
S e r v ic e s , w e r e i n fo r m e d t h a t o ffic ia ls i n v e s ti g a ti n g t h e m a t te r d e c i d e d
t o a p p r o a c h h is o ffic e a n d i g n o r e d th e r e q u e s t fr o m C I . G e n e r a l Z u l u
in f o r m e d G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a t h a t i f I w a n t e d t o r e q u e s t d o c u m e n t a ti o n
fr o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e I n e e d to d o s o t h r o u g h h is o ffic e a n d t h a t I
n e e d t o e x p l a i n h o w I c a m e in t o p o s s e s s io n o f t h e d o c u m e n ts t o b e

Page 187 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
c la s s if i e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h i s i s s u e c o m e s b a c k t h a t y o u m u s t e x p l a in h o w
y o u g o t t h e d o c u m e n ts y o u h a d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Then on the 15th of May 2015 what

tr a n s p ir e d ?
MR

KOBUS

DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

C h a ir A d v o c a te

Rossouw

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, l e t’s m a k e s u r e M s S e p te m b e r w e t i e th e s e
t h i n g s t o g e t h e r, o n th e 2 8 t h o f A p r il th e w i t n e s s r e q u e s te d a m e e ti n g ,
w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h a t r e q u e s t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I r e c e iv e d n o f e e d b a c k i n te r m s o f

m y r e q u e s t C h a ir, a n d th e m e e ti n g n e v e r t o o k p la c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d y o u h a d d ir e c t e d t h e r e q u e s t t o t h e N PA

General Nhlemeza and to General Themeza?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o n e o f t h e m r e s p o n d e d ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:
20

As far as I can remember

A d v o c a t e R o s s o u w d id r e s p o n d b u t I c a n ’ t s p e c i f ic a l ly r e m e m b e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B u t I t h i n k t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f i t is

t h a t th a t p r o p o s e d m e e t in g n e v e r t o o k p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D i d th e o ff ic e o f t h e N D P P a t t h e

Page 188 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ti m e g e t i n v o lv e d i n t h e r e q u e s t fo r d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir, o n t h e 1 5 t h o f M a y

A d v o c a t e R o s s o u w h e w a s o n e o f t h e p r o s e c u to r s t h a t w a s n o w
a p p o i n t e d t o a s s i s t in t h e in v e s ti g a t i o n , t o p r o s e c u t e t h e m a tt e r.

He

in f o r m e d m e th a t t h e N D P P M r N k o l is i , t h is is n o w m y p r o n u n c ia t io n , M r
N x e s a n a , h a d w r i t t e n a l e t te r t o t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r o f th e S A P S
a t t h e t i m e G e n e r a l R i a h P h iy e g a .

M r N ta n a r e q u e s te d G e n e r a l

P h iy e g a a s s is t a n c e t o d e c l a s s i fy t h e d o c u m e n ts , t h a t h a d t o b e
p r o v i d e d t o th e a c c u s e d d e fe n c e c o u n s e l b y n o l a t e r t h a n 2 0 M a y 2 0 1 5 ,
10

the next court appearance date, see Annexure KDR41.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I t h e n t a k e y o u to p a g e , t o t h a t

A n n e x u r e 4 1 w h i c h s t a r ts a t p a g e 3 9 0 .

I s t h is t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t y o u

a r e a w a r e o f w h ic h w a s a u t h o r e d b y t h e N D P P ’s o ffi c e M r X o li s i
Nxesana

dated

14

May

2015

and

addressed

to

th e

National

C o m m i s s i o n e r o f P o l ic e w h o a t th e ti m e w a s G e n e r a l P h iy e g a ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h i ls t t h is d o c u m e n t r e a ll y

g iv e s a n e x t e n s i v e a c c o u n t c a n y o u id e n t if y t h e i m p o r t a n t fe a t u r e s o f
t h is d o c u m e n t p l e a s e , a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d i t to b e .
20

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir i t s e ts o u t a g a i n t h e

background.
CHAIRPERSON:
d e a lt w i th ?

Ye s , I a m s o r r y, w i ll i t s a y a n y t h i n g th a t h e h a s n ’ t

I i m a g in e t h e b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e r e a s o n s m u s t b e t h e

s a m e a s th e r e a s o n s h e h a s t o l d u s a b o u t ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

In d e e d .

Page 189 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n l e s s t h e r e is s o m e th in g n e w t h a t h a d n ’ t b e e n t h e r e
b e f o r e o th e r w i s e I d o n ’ t w a n t u s to g o b a c k a n d s a y s o m e th in g , d e a l
w i t h s o m e th i n g t h a t h e h a s a lr e a d y t o l d m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

N o p r o b l e m C h a ir. If I c a n t h e n a s k

y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 3 9 6 .
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir i f I m a y I w o u l d a l s o j u s t

lik e t o r e fe r t o p a r a g r a p h 1 0 o n 3 9 3 , w h e r e th e N D P P i s s a y i n g
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

N o I a m r e fe r r i n g t o p a r a g r a p h

10, 393.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 3 9 3 ? O k a y l e t ’s g e t t h e r e f ir s t , y e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h is is t h e N D P P s a y i n g i t is m y

u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t t h e r e is n o r e a s o n a b le r is k t h a t t h e d e c la s s if ic a ti o n
a n d d is c l o s u r e fo r o ff ic i a l p u r p o s e s m ig h t c o n s ti t u te a b r e a c h o f S ta t e
S e c u r i ty m e th o d s o r p o lic e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d t h e id e n ti ty o f i n fo r m e r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is it correct that at paragraph 13 on

t h e n e x t p a g e o f 3 9 4 M r N x a s a n a in f o r m s a b o u t, o r r a th e r c o n f ir m s y o u r
c o m m u n ic a ti o n w it h B r i g a d ie r M d l u l i d a te d t h e 2 3 r d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 5 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d t h e n c a n I t a k e y o u to p a g e 3 9 6

a t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 , th e d o c u m e n t t h e n p u t s a d a t e d e a d li n e w h i c h i s
r e l a ti v e t o t h e n e x t c o u r t a p p e a r a n c e a n d r e q u e s ts a s fo ll o w s :
“ K i n d ly t a k e n o te t h a t a c o p y o f t h e c la s s i f ie d d o c u m e n ts
w o u ld n e e d t o b e p r o v i d e d t o t h e d e f e n c e b y n o l a t e r t h a n t h e
n e x t c o u r t a p p e a r a n c e n a m e ly 2 0 M a y 2 0 1 5 . ”

Page 190 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 2 i t in f o r m s th a t :
“ t h e i n v e s ti g a t i n g o ffi c e r C o l o n e l R o e lo f s e c a n p r o v i d e a c c e s s
t o th e r e l e v a n t o ff ic i a l d e l e g a t e d to d e c la s s i fy t h e d o c u m e n t s
a s p e r A n n e x u r e A a c o p y o f w h ic h a p p e a r s to b e a t t a c h e d
fr o m p a g e s 3 9 8 to p a g e 4 0 1 . ”
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n ts to th e

d a t e o n w h ic h t h e d o c u m e n ts o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n p r o v i d e d a n d a l s o t h e
10

a s s e r t io n th a t y o u c o u l d a s s is t i n th is r e g a r d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I h a v e n o t – I h a v e n ’ t

r e c e i v e d a n y f e e d b a c k r e g a r d i n g t h is r e q u e s t , n o d o c u m e n ts w e r e
d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d o n th e 2 0 t h o f M a y a n d s u b s e q u e n t a f te r t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e d o c u m e n t fr o m M r N x a s a n a to t h e N a t io n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r is q u it e c o m p r e h e n s iv e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m a n y p a g e s is i t M s S e p t e m b e r ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

I t a p p e a r s t o b e 8 p a g e s C h a ir, w i t h

a s i g n a t u r e o n th e e i g h t p a g e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , i t ’s q u it e a , i t’s . . .[ i n d is t in c t] a n d i t’s s u b j e c t is –
in c l u d e s r e q u e s ts f o r th e d e c l a s s i fi c a t i o n o f d o c u m e n t s a n d i t is
a d d r e s s e d t o M s P h iy e g a th a t w a s th e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r o f P o l ic e
a t t h e t i m e . W h a t i s i t d a te d ? T h e d a t e m u s t b e a t t h e . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

The date of it appears on page 397

as 14 May 2015.

Page 191 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a s f a r a s y o u k n o w w a s t h e r e e v e r a r e s p o n s e

fr o m M s P h i y e g a t o M r N x a s a n a ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I a m n o t a w a r e o f a

r e s p o n s e t o t h e N D P P, I w a s a ls o n o t g i v e n a r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e N D P P,
w h a t I c a n s a y is th a t n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h is d i d n o t – t h e r e q u e s t w a s n o t

honoured.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s t h a t d a te o f t h i s d o c u m e n t a g a in ?
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

1 4 M a y 2 0 1 5 , o f M r N x a s a n a ’s

document?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s , 1 4 t h M a y 2 0 1 5 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y h e t h e n l e ft t h e N PA in I t h i n k A u g u s t 2 0 1 5 if I ’ m
n o t m is t a k e n , h e h a s g iv e n e v i d e n c e h e r e , a n d th e r e ’s a j u d g m e n t i n
t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t a b o u t h i s d e p a r t u r e f r o m t h e N PA s o t h i s w a s
May 2015.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

14 May 2015.

C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 4 M a y 2 0 1 5 , s o h e m i g h t o r m ig h t n o t h a v e h a d t i m e
20

t o s h a r e w i t h y o u w h a te v e r r e s p o n s e m i g h t h a v e a r r iv e d i f i t d i d a r r iv e ,
w e d o n ’ t k n o w.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h a t is s o b u t I w o u ld h a v e

e x p e c te d t h a t t h e p r o s e c u t o r s in t h e m a t te r w o u l d h a v e s h a r e d th e
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i th m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , i f t h e r e w a s a r e s p o n s e .

Page 192 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d i f th e r e w a s a r e s p o n s e

e i t h e r w a y, w h e t h e r i t w a s n o w y e s w e c a n d e c la s s i f y o r n o w e c a n n o t
d e c l a s s i fy I w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n fo r m e d o f t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , ja , ja . Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Mr Roelofse what happened then

t h r e e d a y s l a t e r o n th e 1 8 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 5 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o r r y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t i s t h e d a t e y o u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t n o w ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

1 8 M a y 2 0 1 5 , w h i c h is a c t u a l ly f o u r

d a y s a f t e r th e d a t e o f Mr N x a s a n a ’s l e t t e r, w e a r e o n p a g e 5 8 o f t h e
a ffi d a v i t , p a r a g r a p h 1 9 9 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r o n t h e 1 8 t h o f M a y B r ig a d i e r

M o o d l e y in f o r m e d m e t h a t h e h a d t o a t t e n d a m e e ti n g w i t h G e n e r a l
P h iy e g a r e g a r d i n g t h e r e q u e s t fr o m t h e N D P P.

Brigadier Moodley

a s k e d m e t o c o m p i l e a r e p o r t s e t ti n g o u t f ir s t h o w t h e d o c u m e n ts c a m e
in t o m y p o s s e s s io n a n d s e c o n d ly p r o v i d e G e n e r a l P h iy e g a w i t h c o p ie s
o f t h e c la s s i f ie d d o c u m e n ts i n o r d e r f o r h e r t o a p p ly h e r m in d to th e
r e q u e s t . T h e o r i g i n a l d o c u m e n t s w o u l d th e n b e s u p p li e d o n c e s h e h a s
m a d e a d e c is i o n . O n th e 8 t h o f J u n e I p r o v id e d Br i g a d i e r M o o d l e y w i t h
20

m y r e p o r t a n d c o p i e s o f t h e c l a s s i f ie d d o c u m e n t s a s r e q u e s t e d .

My

report was presented to General Phiyega under cover of enclosing
le t t e r s , I a t ta c h e d th e s e d o c u m e n ts a s A n n e x u r e K D R 4 2 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d K D R 4 2 w e c a n f i n d s t a r ti n g a t

page 403.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Page 193 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e d o c u m e n t t h a t a p p e a r s a t 4 0 3 is

s ig n e d b y M a jo r G e n e r a l – o r n o t s i g n e d b u t i t i s m a r k e d f o r s i g n a t u r e
b y M a j o r G e n e r a l N h le m e z a , i t is d a t e d t h e 9 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 a n d i t is
a d d r e s s e d t o th e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r o f P o lic e b y s u b je c t t i tl e
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n t s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d t h e d o c u m e n t th a t is i n

e n c l o s e d w it h t h is d o c u m e n t p l e a s e i d e n ti f y it .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

C h a ir i t is o n p a g e 4 0 4 i t is a

c o v e r l e t t e r f r o m B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y w h ic h in d i c a t e p l e a s e s e e a tt a c h e d
r e p o r t fr o m C o lo n e l R o e l o fs e a n d t h e n a g a in th e n t h e r e is t h i s m y
d o c u m e n t c la s s i f ie d , d e c la s s i f ic a ti o n o f c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n t s , S il v e r t o n
CAS

1 5 5 / 7 /2 0 11

for

theft

and/or

c o r r u p t io n

and

Ly t tl e to n

CAS

4 3 2 / 11 / 2 0 0 1 f o r th e f t a n d / o r c o r r u p t io n . T h e d o c u m e n t is d a t e d t h e 8 t h
o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 a n d o n c e a g a in I e x p l a i n h o w i t c a m e a b o u t th a t w e d i d
t h e in v e s ti g a t io n , w h e r e w e r e c e iv e d th e d o c u m e n ts f r o m a n d I g a v e a
b a c k g r o u n d a s t o th e a ll e g a t i o n s t h a t w e r e m a d e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f o n e t h e n t u r n s t o th e n e x t

a n n e x u r e , w h i c h i s A n n e x u r e 4 3 a t p a g e 4 2 4 , th is i s a c o m m u n ic a t i o n
20

t h a t h a s b e e n s e n t t o M a j o r G e n e r a l P R Vu m a d a te d 1 0 J u n e 2 0 1 5 ,
w h a t i s t h e p u r p o s e o f th is d o c u m e n t fo r p u r p o s e s o f y o u r e v i d e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h is is n o t – i t w a s n o t a

d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s s e n t , th is w a s a d o c u m e n t p r e p a r e d b y C a p ta i n
M c L e a n w h o w a s a w a r r a n t o ff ic e r a t t h e t i m e , I r e q u e s te d h i m t o t a k e
p e r h a n d th e d o c u m e n ta t io n r e q u e s t e d a n d o t h e r w i s e t h e c o p i e s o f t h e

Page 194 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
d o c u m e n ts t h a t n e e d s to b e d e c l a s s if i e d t o g e t h e r w i th t h e r e p o r t to t h e
o ffic e o f t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r.
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

And

who

was

the

N a t io n a l

Commissioner at the time?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t w a s G e n e r a l P h iy e g a .
And what happened when General

Vu m a a t t e n d e d t h e o ff ic e t o d e liv e r t h e d o c u m e n t s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S h e r e c e iv e d t h e d o c u m e n ts a n d

s h e s i g n e d f o r t h e d o c u m e n ts o n t h e 1 0 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t t h e n tr a n s p ir e d o n t h e 1 9 t h o f

J u n e 2 0 1 5 ? I f y o u g o b a c k t o p a g e 5 9 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: On the 19th of June 2015, I had to
a r r a n g e f o r t h e c o l l e c ti o n o f th e d o c u m e n t s fr o m t h e o ffic e o f t h e
n a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n is s u e w i t h t h e a u th o r i ty o f
t h e p e r s o n w h o d e l iv e r e d t h e d o c u m e n t s w h ic h G e n e r a l Vu m a r e c e i v e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So, it was not accurate when you

s a i d t h a t, o n t h e 1 0 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 5 a ll w a s g o o d a n d w e l l f o r r e c e i p t o f
t h e d o c u m e n t s b y t h e o ffi c e o f th e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, i t w a s r e c e i v e d b y th e o ff ic e
20

o f th e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r v i a G e n e r a l Vu m a o n t h e 1 9 t h o f J u n e
2 0 1 5 . In t h e m e a n t i m e , I h a v e b e e n r e p r i m a n d e d b y G e n e r a l N h le m e z a
f o r s e n d i n g Wa r r a n t O ff ic e r Mc L e a n a t t h e ti m e to th e o ff ic e o f t h e
n a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r to d e l iv e r t h e d o c u m e n t s b e c a u s e I s t il l d o n o t
k n o w e x a c tl y t h e r e a s o n w h y. I d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r W a r r a n t O ff ic e r
M c L e a n w a s n ’ t fi t a n d p r o p e r t o g o a n d d e liv e r t h e d o c u m e n t s , w h e t h e r

Page 195 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
h is r a n k w a s n o t h ig h e n o u g h . I t j u s t d i d n ’ t m a k e s e n s e to m e a n d i n
t e r m s o f th a t I w a s th e n g i v e n a n i n s tr u c t io n t o g e t th e d o c u m e n ta t io n
b a c k fr o m t h e o ffi c e o f t h e n a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r o n t h e 1 9 t h J u n e
2 0 1 5 . D u r in g w h ic h th o s e d o c u m e n ts w e r e th e n c o l le c t e d a g a i n a n d
c a m e b a c k to m y o ffic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , y o u h a d c a u s e d t h e r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n ts t o b e

t a k e n to th e o ff ic e o f t h e n a t i o n a l C o m m is s io n e r a n d G e n e r a l Vu m a w a s
t h e p e r s o n i n t h e o ff ic e o f t h e n a t i o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r w h o h a d r e c e iv e d
t h e d o c u m e n t s . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

But after that you were reprimanded by General

N h l e m e z a fo r s e n d in g w h o e v e r y o u s e n t t h e r e t o ta k e t h e d o c u m e n ts
t h e r e . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And what was the basis for reprimanding you?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I ’ m s t i ll tr y in g to f in d o u t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h e n h e s p o k e to y o u , w h a t w a s t h e o b j e c t io n ?

Wa s i t t h a t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts h a d b e e n ta k e n t h e r e o r w a s h i s o b je c t i o n
t o t h e i d e n t it y o f t h e p e r s o n t h a t y o u s e n t t o t a k e th e d o c u m e n t s t h e r e ?
20

O r w a s it th a t y o u s e n t th o s e d o c u m e n ts t h e r e w i t h o u t g o i n g t h r o u g h
h is o ffi c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, t h e d o c u m e n ts w e r e s e n t

t h r o u g h h is o ff ic e . T h e c o v e r l e t t e r w a s p r e p a r e d b y h is o ffi c e . W e
m e r e ly fa c i li t a te d t a k i n g th e d o c u m e n t s to t h e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s
o ffic e . Th e l e t t e r t h a t w a s d r a w n u p a s a n a c k n o w l e d g m e n t o f r e c e i p t

Page 196 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
f o r t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t w e a r e p r o v i d i n g t o th e o ffi c e o f t h e n a ti o n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r, W a r r a n t O ff ic e r M c L e a n d r e w u p t h a t l e t t e r. I t ’s n o t a
f o r m a l le t t e r. I t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a p ie c e o f p a p e r s o th a t w e c a n h a v e
r e c o r d t h a t th e d o c u m e n t a t i o n w e r e a c tu a l ly d e l iv e r e d a n d r e c e iv e d .
N o w I s t il l c a n n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h e t h e r t h a t w a s h is o b j e c t io n t h a t t h a t
le t t e r o f r e c e ip t d i d n ’ t g o t h r o u g h h is o ffi c e o r w h e t h e r i t w a s t h e fa c t
t h a t C a p ta in M c L e a n o r W a r r a n t O ff ic e r M c L e a n t o o k th e d o c u m e n ts t o
t h e o ffi c e o f t h e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. I t w a s j u s t , it ’s j u s t d i d n ’ t m a k e
s e n s e to m e . T h e r e a s o n i n g d i d n ’ t m a k e s e n s e . I t i s s o m e th i n g t h a t
10

s h o u l d n o t h a v e h a p p e n e d . T h e d o c u m e n ts w e r e d e liv e r e d p r o p e r ly
t h r o u g h h is o ff ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Well, I was about to say you may have skipped

s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u h a d m e n t i o n e d in p a s s in g e a r l i e r. Yo u i n a n s w e r t o
a q u e s ti o n I p u t t o y o u , y o u s a i d t h a t y o u d i d g e t a c h a n c e t o e x p la i n t o
G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a a f t e r th e m e e t in g th a t y o u h a d w i t h h i m a n d G e n e r a l
Z u l u . Yo u d i d g e t a c h a n c e t o e x p l a i n t o h i m w h a t t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s
a b o u t.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is correct.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n . B u t y o u , I t h i n k y o u s a id t h a t h is
20

r e a c ti o n w a s n o t g o o d . D o y o u w a n t t o c o v e r t h a t b e c a u s e I t h i n k w e
m a y h a v e p a s s e d th a t n o w ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O k a y. C h a ir, w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e
is th e f a c t th a t w h e n I s a t th e r e a n d B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y w a s w i t h m e , h e
a tt e n d e d t h e m e e ti n g w i t h m e . G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a s a i d t o m e t h e
f o ll o w i n g a n d t h is i s n o t v e r b a ti m . I ’ m ju s t , th is i s h o w I r e m e m b e r t h i s .

Page 197 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e s a i d t o m e t h a t, w h y a r e w e

in v e s t i g a t in g t h i s h e p r e v i o u s c r i m e i n t e ll i g e n c e s ti ll a n d h e r e f e r r e d t o
o n e i n d i v i d u a l t h a t w a s l o c k e d u p fr o m t h e p r e v io u s … ( i n d i s t i n c t) . H e
r e fe r r e d t o E u g e n e D e C o c k a n d y o u a l lo w e d h i m t o d o th is . I t is n o w
o u r ti m e t o d o i t . A n d I w a s , I r e a l ly I w a s t a k e n a b a c k . I t h o u g h t t o
m y s e l f , w h a t a r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t .
CHAIRPERSON: Please just repeat again. I know that you said you are
n o t q u o ti n g h i m b u t ju s t r e p e a t t h e s u b s t a n c e o f w h a t h e s a id .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
b o il s

down

to

it

happened

with

C h a ir, t h e s u b s t a n c e b a s i c a ll y
the

previous,

in

the

previous

g o v e r n m e n t . P e o p le s t o le a n d w h y a m I i n v e s t ig a ti n g w h a t is h a p p e n in g
n o w. It is n o w, s o m e th i n g t o th e e ffe c t , i t i s n o w m y ti m e o r o u r ti m e t o
e a t a n d I w a s t o ta lly. I j u s t s a t t h e r e a n d I t h o u g h t t h i s is n o t
h a p p e n in g . I’ m n o t h e a r in g c o r r e c t ly. I l e ft t h e o ffi c e t o g e t h e r w i t h
B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y a n d … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y ’s r e a c t io n t o w h a t y o u

h e a r d ? D id h e h e a r i t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t w a s th e s a m e , C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

But what did you or Brigadier Moodley say in

r e s p o n s e t o t h is ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, w h a t d o I s a y i n r e s p o n s e t o
t h a t ? I m e a n i t is a n o n s e n s i c a l r e m a r k . I t is n o t g o i n g t o t a k e m e
f o r w a r d . A l l t h a t is g o in g to h a p p e n i s t h a t w e w il l g e t i n to s o m e o th e r
a l t e r c a ti o n .

Page 198 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON: Argument.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n a r g u m e n t. S o , I w a s n ’ t

p r e p a r e d t o g o i n t o t h a t k i n d o f th i n g . S o , w e s h o r tl y a f t e r th a t w e l e f t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o b a s i c a lly, h e d i d n ’ t w a n t t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n t o

c o n ti n u e ? H e w a n t e d i t t o b e s t o p p e d .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. H e w a n t e d
it t o b e s t o p p e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e b a s e d o n w h a t h e s a id t o y o u .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I d i d n ’ t m e n ti o n t h i s e a r li e r. I t i s

m e n ti o n e d l a t e r i n t h e a ff i d a v i t . H e w a s a f r ie n d o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s a fr i e n d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A f r i e n d o f G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d i f

y o u a n d i f f u r t h e r m y t e s t i m o n y y o u w il l s e e I d e a l w i t h h is a s s is t a n c e
w i t h th e Vo s lo o r u s m a t t e r a s r e q u e s t e d b y G e n e r a l M d l u li . S o , i n th a t
w h e n t h a t s e n s e I w a s n ’ t s u r p r is e d t h a t h e d i d n ’ t w a n t u s t o c o n t in u e . I
w a s s u r p r is e d b y t h e w o r d s t h a t h e u s e d o r th e r e a s o n t h a t h e u s e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s . A n d a ft e r th a t r e m a r k th a t w a s t h e e n d o f th e

m e e ti n g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t w a s th e e n d , C h a ir. Th e r e

w a s n o , th e r e is n o p o i n t i n m e e t i n g a n y fu r t h e r
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : B u t p r io r t o t h a t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e m e a n t i t i n a ll s e r io u s n e s s ?

Page 199 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, I r e m e m b e r h i m v iv i d ly

s t a n d in g u p a n d g r a b b in g h is j a c k e t a n d c o m i n g s i t ti n g b a c k d o w n a g a in
a n d h e s a id , t h a t I c a n o n ly w o r k w i t h p e o p le t h a t I c a n tr u s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t h e s a i d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s w h a t h e s a i d . S o , it is to

m e i t w a s n o t t h e k in d o f r e a c ti o n I e x p e c t e d . It w a s n o t t h e k i n d o f
tr e a t m e n t a n d r e a c ti o n th a t I r e c e iv e d fr o m G e n e r a l D r a m a t . I w a s n ’ t
u s e d t o t h a t k i n d o f th i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o , e ff e c t iv e ly h i s r e m a r k w a s , a ll o w u s to e a t . I t’s

our turn.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A s y o u l e f t t h e o ffi c e a n d le f t th a t m e e t in g , d i d y o u

r e fl e c t o n w h e t h e r th is i n v e s ti g a t i o n t h a t y o u h a d b e e n w o r k i n g o n f o r
s o l o n g h a d a n y c h a n c e o f c o n ti n u i n g ? O r d i d y o u t h i n k th a t y o u w o u l d
h a n d l e , y o u w o u l d c o n t in u e w i th in v e s ti g a ti o n a s f a r a s y o u c o u ld a s
lo n g a s i t d id n ’ t s t a n d in y o u r w a y ? O r w h a t w a s t h e e ff e c t a s y o u
r e fl e c t e d o n t h is r e m a r k a n d th e f a c t t h a t y o u h a d a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n th a t
y o u w a n te d to p u r s u e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a ir, I w a s , i t w a s a d i ff ic u l t

m e e ti n g t o a t t e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s , c o n ti n u e .
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

S o r r y,

Mr

R o e l o fs e

when

the

d o c u m e n ts w e r e t h e n c o l le c te d f r o m t h e o ffi c e o f G e n e r a l P h iy e g a , w a s
it r e s u b m i tt e d a t a l a te r s t a g e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir, i t w a s r e s u b m i tt e d .

Page 200 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I a s k y o u to g o t o A n n e x u r e 4 4
at page 426 please?
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: 426.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

T h is d o c u m e n t a p p e a r s t o b e a

d o c u m e n t d a te d t h e 1 s t o f J u ly 2 0 1 5 , s i g n e d b y M a j o r G e n e r a l
N h l e m e z a a n d a d d r e s s e d t o t h e n a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r u n d e r a h e a d i n g
o f d e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n o f c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n t s S il v e r t o n c a s e 1 5 5 / 0 7 /2 0 11
10

w i t h fu r t h e r d e t a il t h a t f o l lo w s . W h a t is t h is d o c u m e n t, C o l o n e l
R o e lo fs e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, t h i s d o c u m e n t is a g a i n a

c o v e r le t t e r fo r t h e s a m e d o c u m e n ts t h a t I h a v e t o p r o v i d e t o th e o ffic e
o f th e n a t i o n a l C o m m i s s io n e r. T h is d o c u m e n t , th e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n
t h is d o c u m e n t a n d t h e p r e v io u s o n e , t h e p r e v i o u s o n e w a s g e n e r i c in
s a y in g

that enclosed

p le a s e

f in d

the

f o l lo w in g

d o c u m e n t s . T h is

d o c u m e n t p r e p a r e d b y G e n e r a l M a j o r a n d s ig n e d b y h i m . I f I m a y r e a d
in t o t h e r e c o r d i t s a y s th e fo ll o w i n g ;
Please
20

f in d

the

a t ta c h e d

report

of

the

in v e s t i g a t o r, C o lo n e l K R o e l o fs e r e g a r d in g a b o v e m e n ti o n e d d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f c la s s i f ie d d o c u m e n t s .
H o w e v e r,

th is

o ffi c e

is

concerned

as

to

th e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s th a t p r e v a il e d in th e m a n n e r i n w h i c h
t h e p o s s e s s o r … ( i n d is t in c t ) o ff ic e r c o u l d h a v e b e e n
a l lo w e d g iv e n a c c e s s to t h e c l a s s i f ie d in f o r m a ti o n .

Page 201 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A l b e i t t h e f a c t th a t h e n e v e r h a d a v a li d s e c u r i ty
c le a r a n c e a t t h e m o m e n t a n d a t t h i s c u r r e n t j u n c t u r e .
C u r r e n t ly a c k n o w le d g e r e c e ip t o f d u p li c a t e h e r e o f .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , t h i s is a l e t t e r f r o m G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a g o i n g t o

t h e n a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r o f p o lic e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e n e r a l P h i y e g a , is t h e h e a d o f y o u r o r g a n i z a t io n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s e e k th e s e d o c u m e n t s b u t h e d o e s n ’ t s e e m
10

t o b e i n s u p p o r t o f th e p u r s u it o f th e s e d o c u m e n ts , t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n
o r i s t h a t n o t t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g y o u h a v e f r o m t h i s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, t h e y a r e ju s t p u t t in g i t

m il d ly t h is . Th a t ’s e x a c tl y th e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t I h a v e a n d n o t o n ly
t h a t . T h e s e c o n d p a r t o f th is l e t t e r a p a r t fr o m t h e f a c t th a t h e is
a c c u s i n g m e t h a t I’ m n o t s u p p o s e d t o h a v e t h e d o c u m e n t . T h e
c la s s if i e d i n f o r m a ti o n a lb e it t h e f a c t t h a t h e n e v e r h a d a v a l id s e c u r it y
c le a r a n c e a t t h e m o m e n t a n d a t th a t c u r r e n t j u n c t u r e w h ic h is n o t tr u e .
I h a d a s e c u r i ty, t o p s e c u r i t y c l e a r a n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A t t h e ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e r e w a s n o , t h e r e ’s n o b a s is f o r
h i m t o s a y t h is .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e d i d n ’ t … D i d h e e v e r r a i s e t h e is s u e o f

c le a r a n c e w i th y o u ?

Page 202 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o , C h a ir. H e h a s n e v e r r a is e d

that with me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t i f y o u w a n te d to h e c o u l d h a v e a n d y o u w o u l d
h a v e to l d h i m a n d i f h e w a n t e d t o c h e c k w it h o u t y o u k n o w in g , h e c o u ld
h a v e , h e w o u l d h a v e fo u n d t h a t y o u d i d h a v e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. H e h a d , if

y o u d i d n ’ t w a n t t o a s k m e h e h a d a c c e s s t o th e d a t a b a s e w h i c h w o u l d
t e ll h i m I h a d c l e a r a n c e o r I d id n ’ t h a v e c l e a r a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , b u t a ls o i f h e h a d c o n c e r n s t h a t y o u m i g h t n o t

h a v e c l e a r a n c e o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d h i m t o t a lk t o y o u b e f o r e
w r i t in g t o s o m e b o d y o u ts id e o f t h e o r g a n i z a ti o n a n d r a is in g t h a t is s u e .
O n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e r a i s e d i t w i t h y o u fi r s t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

O n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d th a t ,

C h a ir. I th i n k th is w a s d o n e d e l ib e r a te ly a n d w a s m a li c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d y o u s a y h e k n e w t h a t i t w a s n o t tr u e o r h e
must have known it was untrue.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H e m u s t h a v e k n o w n b e fo r e h e h a s
written this.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B e c a u s e i t w a s n ’t tr u e . I w o u l d

h a v e e x p e c te d a t l e a s t fr o m a m a n i n h is p o s i ti o n t h a t h e w o u l d h a v e
m a d e s u r e t h a t if h e m a d e a s ta t e m e n t li k e th a t th a t i t i s a c t u a l ly tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t m e g o b a c k t o w h e n y o u s e n t t h e r e p o r t t h a t
h e r e q u e s te d t h r o u g h B r i g a d ie r M o o d le y. A f t e r h e h a d r e c e i v e d t h a t
r e p o r t o f w h ic h d e a lt w i t h w h e r e y o u g o t t h e a u t h o r i ty fr o m t o c o n d u c t

Page 203 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n . D id h e e v e r c o m e b a c k t o y o u a n d s a y a n y t h i n g l ik e ,
n o b u t t h is i s n o t y o u k n o w y o u r e x p la n a ti o n is n o t a c c e p t a b l e ? Th is
d o e s n ’t g iv e y o u a u t h o r i ty a n d s a y a n y t h i n g ? D i d y o u e v e r g e t a n y
r e a c ti o n fr o m h i m i n w r i t in g o r d i d h e t a lk t o y o u a b o u t i t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o , C h a ir. I n e v e r r e c e i v e d

a n y th in g i n w r i t in g w i t h r e g a r d s to m y e x p l a n a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A s t o w h y w e w e r e b u s y w i t h th is
in v e s t i g a t io n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t w a s a l w a y s t h e r e q u e s t a n d th e
a c c u s a ti o n b u t t h e r e w a s n e v e r a r e s p o n s e a f t e r i t w a s , a f te r I
responded to that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u m e n t i o n e d s o m e t h i n g a n d w e d id n ’ t d e a l w i th
it e a r l ie r o n w h e n y o u ta lk e d a b o u t th e m e e t in g th a t y o u h a d w it h h i m
t o g e th e r w i t h B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y w h e n y o u t o l d y o u a b o u t t h a t b e in g
t h e ir t u r n to e a t . I t h i n k y o u s a i d s o m e t h i n g li k e h e s a id , h e c o u l d o n l y
w o r k w i t h p e o p le t h a t h e tr u s t e d . D id I u n d e r s t a n d y o u c o r r e c tl y ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.

20

CHAIRPERSON: What was the context of that remark?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e c o n t e x t i s t h a t i f h e t e l ls m e to
a n d t h is is h o w I u n d e r s t o o d i t o n . T h e c o n t e x t is i f h e te lls m e n o t t o
d o s o m e th in g e v e n i f i t’s i ll e g a l th e n I n e e d t o l is t e n t o h i m a n d if I
d o n ’t t h e n h e c a n n o t w o r k w i th m e b e c a u s e h e c a n n o t tr u s t m e . A n d I ’ m
n o t , I w o n ’ t a d h e r e t o th a t k i n d o f r e q u e s t .

Page 204 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a r e y o u a b l e t o t h r o w m o r e li g h t i n t h e d i s c u s s io n
h o w it c a m e i n ? H o w d id i t c o m e i n ? W a s i t b e c a u s e h e e x p e c t e d y o u
n o t to p r o c e e d w i t h t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ? W a s h e s u g g e s ti n g th a t i f y o u
p r o c e e d e d w it h t h e in v e s ti g a t io n a ft e r t h a t m e e ti n g , i t w o u l d m e a n t h a t
h e c o u l d n o t tr u s t y o u ? T h e r e f o r e , h e c o u l d n o t w o r k w it h y o u .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, t h e c o m m e n ts c a m e a f t e r I
g a v e h i m f e e d b a c k in t e r m s o f w h a t w e a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g . I n o t h e r
w o r d s , I e x p la i n e d to h i m a s I d i d to t h i s C o m m i s s i o n . O b v i o u s ly n o t
t w o l o n g d a y e x p l a n a ti o n b u t I e x p l a i n e d t o h i m a s t o t h e in v e s t i g a t io n
10

t h a t w e d e a l t w i th . H e b e c a m e v e r y a n g r y w h e n I e x p la in e d a s t o w h a t
w e h a v e u n c o v e r e d a n d t h a t tr ig g e r e d t h e r e a c t io n w h e r e h e a s k e d m e
b u t t o g i v e u s t h e a u t h o r i ty o r a n d w h y a r e w e i n v e s ti g a t i n g . Th is is
n o t … Yo u d i d n ’ t d o t h i s w h e n w it h E u g e n e D e C o o k s . S o , w h y a r e y o u
d o i n g t h i s i n o u r ti m e t o e a t ? A n d a ls o , i n t h a t s a m e w i t h i n th a t s a m e
le t ’s c a ll i t t i m e fr a m e t h a t is w h e n h e s to o d u p a n d h e , a n d I c o u l d s e e
h e w a s v e r y a n g r y w i th m e . A n d h e s a i d t h a t b u t I c a n ’ t tr u s t y o u . H e
d i d n ’ t th e r e s a y to m e t h a t I c a n n o t i n v e s ti g a t e th e m a t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , h e d i d n ’ t p u t i t e x p r e s s ly.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H e d i d n ’ t e x p r e s s ly p u t i t th e r e to

20

m e t h a t I c a n n o t i n v e s ti g a t e t h e m a t t e r. I k n e w … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w a s i t c le a r to y o u t h a t h e d i d n o t w a n t to y o u t o
c o n ti n u e t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t w a s c l e a r t o m e th a t h e d i d n o t
w a n t m e t o c o n t in u e w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n , y e s C h a ir. B u t in t h e
a b s e n c e o f h i m g iv in g m e a d ir e c t .

Page 205 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n s tr u c t io n .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I n s tr u c ti o n , I w a s g o in g t o

c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : M r R o e l o fs e , y o u w il l r e c a ll t h a t t h e
le t t e r Mr X o l is i X o s a n a d a t e d t h e 1 4 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 5 r e q u e s te d th a t t h e
c la s s if i e d d o c u m e n t s w o u l d n e e d to b e p r o v i d e d t o t h e d e fe n c e b y n o
la t e r th a n th e n e x t C o u r t a p p e a r a n c e o n t h e 2 0 t h o f M a y 2 0 1 5 . Ar e y o u
a w a r e a s to w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a t w a s c o m p li e d w i t h ?
10

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir, i t w a s n o t c o m p l ie d w i th .

M y … t h e l a s t … M y l a s t k n o w l e d g e o f t h e … T h e l a s t th i n g t h a t I w a s
in v o lv e d in w a s th e r e s u b m i s s i o n o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n , c o p i e s o f t h e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t n e e d s t o b e r e c l a s s i f i e d o r d e c l a s s i fi e d . I h a v e n o t
r e c e i v e d a n y fo r m a l c o m m u n ic a ti o n v e r b a lly n o r w r i t t e n r e g a r d i n g t h e
d e c is i o n o f t h e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. A ll I k n o w i t d id n ’t h a p p e n
b e c a u s e w h e n w e a t t e n d e d th e C o u r t a p p e a r a n c e o n th e 6 t h o f J u ly, t h e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n h a s n o t b e e n , w a s n ’ t d e c l a s s i fi e d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h a t i s t h e 6 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 5 .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A m I c o r r e c t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s it i o n to b e t h a t

a ft e r t h e m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e a b o u t b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f,
B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y a n d G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a w h e r e h e m a d e t h e r e m a r k
t h a t w e h a v e d i s c u s s e d . H e , t h a t is G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a d i d h a v e a r o le
in r e g a r d to a t t e m p ts t o d e c l a s s i fy t h e d o c u m e n ts . H e d i d w r i t e t o y o u
t o G e n e r a l P h iy e g a . Th e r e w a s t h a t le t t e r t h a t w e ta lk e d a b o u t e a r li e r

Page 206 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
w h e r e h e w a s r a is in g t h e q u e s t i o n o f h o w y o u c a m e to b e i n p o s s e s s i o n
o f d o c u m e n t s . S o , a m I c o r r e c t t o s a y h e d i d p la y t h e r o l e o f w r i ti n g t o
her?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, I w o u l d m o r e c a l l it h e d id , I
t h i n k i t w a s , I th i n k i t w a s f o r a p p e a r a n c e s a k e t r y i n g t o lu r e m e i n to a
s i tu a ti o n w h e r e I t h i n k h e w i ll b e a s s i s t i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : B u t a s I s a i d , i t is m y v i e w o f t h e
m a t t e r. I d o n o t k n o w e x a c t ly w h a t w a s g o i n g o n a s y e t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A t t h e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u r p e r s p e c t iv e is th a t h e w a s d o i n g th is

b e c a u s e m a y b e i t w o u l d b e d i ff ic u l t t o o p e n . Th e y s a y t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n
must stop.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. I f y o u l o o k
a t th e tr e n d o f w h a t h a p p e n e d i n t e r m s o f m y t e s ti m o n y, t h e r e w a s
always something. There was never a no. There was always just
s o m e t h i n g y o u k n o w, g o a n d f e tc h th e d o c u m e n ts . I t w a s n ’t d e l iv e r e d
p r o p e r ly. G o d o th is o r g o d o t h a t. T h e r e is a lw a y s s o m e t h in g e ls e b u t
20

not the actual reason.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , y e s o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d M r R o e l o fs e , w h a t w a s y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e r e a s o n f o r th e m a t t e r b e i n g s tr u c k fr o m t h e r o l l ,
t h e M d l u l i / B a r n a r d m a t t e r a s y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o i t i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t ?
B e in g s tr u c k fr o m t h e r o ll o n t h e 6 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 5 .

Page 207 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, t h e r e a s o n w a s q u i t e

s i m p l e . I t w a s t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n t h a t w e h a d t o , th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n
t h a t n e e d e d t o b e p r o v i d e d to t h e d e f e n c e i n a d e c l a s s i fi e d f o r m a t w a s
n o t a v a i la b le t o p r o v i d e t o t h e d e f e n c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w e r e t h e r e a n y a d d i t io n a l

a c c u s e d ’s w h o w e r e a d d e d t o th e m a t t e r a t t h e s t a g e b y t h is t i m e
r a th e r ?
MR

KOBUS DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

Ye s , C h a ir. A t t h e

e a r l ie r

a p p e a r a n c e , G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s a l s o a d d e d in r e s p e c t o f th e s p e c if ic
10

case.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t o w h a t e x te n t w e r e t h e c h a r g e s
r e l a ti n g t o t h e s e c r e t s e r v ic e s a c c o u n t o f t h e p o l ic e ? W e a c c e p t , w e
u n d e r s t a n d th e c h a r g e s a s a g a i n s t , t h e f r a u d a n d c o r r u p t io n c h a r g e s
a g a in s t G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d C o lo n e l B a r n a r d . W h a t w e r e t h e c h a r g e s
a g a in s t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t w a s s i m il a r c h a r g e s b e c a u s e w e
n o w w e r e lo o k i n g a t , i t w a s fr a u d c o r r u p ti o n . T h e r e w e r e a d d i t io n a l
c h a r g e s a s w e ll . T h e r e w a s a c o m p r e h e n s i v e c h a r g e s h e e t th a t w a s
d r a w n u p a n d i t n o w k n o w i n c l u d e d th e o th e r m a t te r s a s I e x p l a i n e d

20

e a r l ie r in r e s p e c t o f t h e C h i n a tr i p a n d t h e S i n g a p o r e tr i p a n d
a p p o i n t m e n t o f fa m i ly m e m b e r s . S o , i t in c l u d e d t h a t a s w e l l .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e

4 2 8 w h ic h is A n n e x u r e 4 5 t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t ? D o y o u r e c o g n iz e t h i s
document?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s , C h a ir. I t i s a n e m a il t h a t I

Page 208 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
w r o t e t o a n d I a d d r e s s e d i t t o B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o , i t is d a t e d t h e 6 t h o f J u l y

2 0 1 5 a t 1 4 h 4 1 s e n t b y y o u r s e lf t o B r ig a d i e r M o o d l e y. A n d w h a t
tr i g g e r e d y o u s e n d i n g th is e m a i l?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e w i t h d r a w a l o f th e m a t t e r a n d
t h e r e a s o n f o r th e w i t h d r a w a l f o r t h e m a tt e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m i g h t b e a n i m p o r ta n t e m a il . M a y b e h e c o u ld r e a d
t h e w h o le o f i t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Ye s , C h a ir. Pl e a s e r e a d th is e m a i l

in t o t h e r e c o r d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
“ D e a r B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y, I h a v e c a r e f u lly c o n s i d e r e d m y e m a i l
b e f o r e f o r w a r d i n g i t t o y o u . I a ls o w is h to r e i t e r a te t h a t I
a p p r e c ia t e t h e d i ff ic u l t s it u a ti o n y o u f o u n d y o u r s e l f in . I f u r th e r
w i s h t o s ta t e .. . ” . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d y o u li k e a n a d j o u r n m e n t ? W o u l d y o u li k e m e t o
t a k e fiv e m i n u t e s ? O k a y l e t ’s , m a y b e le t ’s t a k e m o r e th a n fi v e m i n u te s .
M a y b e l e t ’s ta k e 1 0 m in u t e s . O h , w e a r e a b o u t t o b e 5 o ’ c l o c k . L e t ’s
t a k e 1 0 m i n u t e s a n d t h e n w h e n w e c o m e b a c k , w e c a n t a lk fu r th e r a s t o

20

w h a t is to h a p p e n . M r R o e l o fs e , I ju s t w a n t y o u to k n o w th a t I a m
in t e r e s te d i n g e t t in g a f u l l p ic tu r e o f h o w p e o p le l ik e y o u m i g h t h a v e
b e e n fe e l i n g w h e n t h e y w e r e g o in g th r o u g h c e r ta i n s i t u a t io n s . S o , I j u s t
w a n t y o u t o k n o w t h a t I d o w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e f u l l p ic t u r e . S o , w e
w i ll t a k e a n a d jo u r n m e n t a n d c o m e b a c k a t 1 0 p a s t. W e a d j o u r n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A s i t p l e a s e s th e C h a ir

Page 209 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
R E G I S T R A R : A l l r is e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r R o e l o fs e , h o w a r e y o u f e e l in g ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I ’ m fi n e t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e fi n e ? O k a y t h a n k y o u . I th i n k … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n y o u s w it c h t h e m i c o n p l e a s e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I ’ m s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k r e a d t h a t e m a il . A f te r y o u h a v e r e a d i t , w e w i ll
10

t a lk a b o u t t h e w a y f o r w a r d in t e r m s o f fi n i s h i n g y o u r e v id e n c e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o , i t’s fi n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , th a n k y o u . Th is is th e e m a il t h a t is a t p a g e 4 2 8 ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u c a n r e a d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a n k y o u , C h a ir. T h e e m a i l is

a d d r e s s e d to B r i g a d i e r M o o d le y.
I h a v e c a r e fu lly c o n s id e r e d m y e m a i l b e l o w b e fo r e
f o r w a r d in g i t to y o u . I a l s o w i s h t o r e i te r a te t h a t I a p p r e c i a t e
t h e d i ffic u lt p o s i ti o n o r s it u a ti o n t h a t y o u fi n d y o u r s e l f in . I
20

f u r th e r w i s h t o s t a te t h a t w h a t e v e r I a l lu d e t o i n my e m a il d o e s
n o t in c l u d e y o u . A s f a r a s I’ m c o n c e r n e d , y o u w il l h a v e tr ie d
y o u r u t m o s t to h e lp a n d r e c e iv e a n d r e s o l v e t h e s i t u a t io n . Th e
a b o v e - m e n ti o n e d m a t t e r h a s b e e n s tr u c k o f t h e C o u r t r o ll
t o d a y. T h e d e f e n c e in t h is m a t te r h a s s u c c e s s f u lly a r g u e d t h a t
t h e a c c u s e d c a n n o t p r e p a r e t h e ir c a s e w it h o u t a c c e s s t o a l l

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h e d o c u m e n ts . In t h is r e g a r d , th e d e f e n c e r e f e r r e d t o t h e
c la s s if i e d d o c u m e n t s n o t y e t h a n d e d to th e a c c u s e d . T h e
m a g i s tr a t e in h is ju d g m e n t s a i d th a t t h e c a s e c a n o n ly b e
placed

back

on

the

Court

r o ll

once

the

c l a s s i fi e d

d o c u m e n t a ti o n o r d o c u m e n ts a r e d e c l a s s i f ie d . In t h i s r e g a r d , I
w o u ld lik e to r e fe r y o u to th e n u m e r o u s a tt e m p ts s i n c e 2 0 1 2
m a d e f o r m y s e l f a n d t h e N PA t o g e t s a m e d e c l a s s i fi e d . I w o u ld
f u r th e r w o u l d lik e t o r e f e r y o u t o a m e m o r a n d u m I c o m p i l e d fo r
M a jo r G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a a t h i s r e q u e s t in w h ic h I s e n t o u t a ll
10

t h e a t te m p t s m a d e t o g e t t h e a b o v e - m e n t io n e d d o c u m e n ts
d e c l a s s i fi e d . I h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d f e e d b a c k w it h r e s p e c t t o t h i s .
O n 1 5 M a y 2 0 1 5 , t h e th e n N D P P in t e r v e n e d a n d r e q u e s te d t h a t
the

n a ti o n a l

Commissioner

to

d e c l a s s if y

th e

documents

m e n ti o n e d a b o v e a s it is n e e d e d a s a n E x h i b it o r a s E x h i b i t s
before Court. On 6 June 2015, I submitted a comprehensive
r e p o r t t o y o u r s e lf r e g a r d in g th e r e q u e s t f o r d e c la s s if ic a ti o n . I
u n d e r s t o o d t h is w a s r e q u ir e d a ft e r a t te n d i n g a m e e ti n g w i th
t h e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r. T h is m e e ti n g w a s in r e s p o n s e t o
t h e r e q u e s t o f t h e N D P P. Th is r e p o r t w a s h a n d e d to th e o ff ic e
20

o f t h e n a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o n 1 0 J u n e 2 0 1 5 . I n t h is r e g a r d ,
I

need

to

point

out

that

th e

report

to

th e

n a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r w e n t u n d e r m y s i g n a t u r e . I w a s i n fo r m e d t h a t
y o u w e r e i n s tr u c t e d t o j u s t p r o v i d e t h e c o v e r l e t t e r i n r e s p e c t
o f m y r e q u e s t . I f u r t h e r w o u ld li k e to p o in t o u t t h a t t h e n a ti o n a l
h e a d s fo r t h e D P C a r e a t t a c h e d a n d a n u n s i g n e d c o v e r l e tt e r

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t o t h e a p p lic a ti o n i n q u e s ti o n . I d o n o t m i n d s i g n i n g t h e
r e q u e s t fo r d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n b u t I c a n n o t h e l p t o t h i n k t h a t I d o
n o t h a v e th e s u p p o r t o f t h e a c t in g n a ti o n a l h e a d o f t h e D P C I .
O n 1 9 J u n e 2 0 1 5 , I w a s r e q u e s t e d t o f e t c h th e a p p lic a ti o n i n
q u e s t io n . I w a s t h e n in f o r m e d t h a t n e i th e r t h e r e q u e s t o f th e
N D P P n o r t h e c o v e r in g le t t e r o f t h e n a t io n a l h e a d o f th e D P C I
w a s s i g n e d . I n l ig h t t h e r e o f , I w a s i n fo r m e d t h a t th e n a ti o n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r i n d i c a t e d s h e w o u l d n o t a t t e n d t o th e r e q u e s t .
I n li g h t th e r e o f , I r e s u b m i tt e d m y a p p l ic a ti o n to t h e n a t io n a l
10

C o m m i s s i o n e r v ia t h e o ffic e o f t h e h e a d o f t h e D P C I o n 1 J u ly
2 0 1 5 . I r e c e iv e d m y a p p l ic a ti o n b a c k f r o m t h e o ffic e o f th e
n a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f t h e D P C I , n a ti o n a l h e a d o f th e D P C I
o n th e s a m e d a te . A t t a c h e d t o i t w a s a s i g n e d c o v e r l e t t e r
s ig n e d b y M a j o r G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a . M a j o r G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a
s t a te s th e f o l lo w in g in p a r a g r a p h t w o o f h i s c o v e r i n g l e t t e r.
H o w e v e r, t h is o ffic e i s c o n c e r n e d a s th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h a t
r e s u l t e d i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e p o s s e s s o r i . e . t h e
in v e s t i g a t in g o ffi c e r c o u l d h a v e b e e n a ll o w e d , g iv e n a c c e s s to
t h e c la s s if i e d i n f o r m a ti o n . A l b e i t t h e f a c t t h a t h e n e v e r h a d a

20

v a l i d s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e a t t h e m o m e n t a n d a t t h i s c u r r e n t
ju n c t u r e . H e d o e s s t a te i n h is c o v e r l e t te r t h a t I a m i ll e g a ll y i n
possession of said documents and I do not have clearance.
T h i s i n f o r m a t io n i s b l a t a n tly w r o n g a n d it is c le a r t h a t th e
in t e n t io n i s t o c a s t d o u b t n o t o n ly o n m y s e l f b u t a ls o th e
process

fo ll o w e d

d u r in g

th e

i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

Page 212 of 233

I

was

never

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
r e q u e s t e d to s u p p l y t h e S t a t e w it h m y s e c u r i t y c le a r a n c e . T h is
cover letter would have placed me in a very precarious
p o s i ti o n

if

it

had

indeed

went

through

to

th e

n a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r. I s ti ll h a v e a v a li d s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e . T h is k i n d
o f m i s t a k e c o u l d a ls o h a v e a n i m p a c t o n t h e a c t u a l m a t te r
b e f o r e C o u r t . I f M a j o r G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a d i d r e a d my v a r io u s
r e p o r t s a s r e q u e s t e d b y h i m , h e w o u ld h a v e k n o w l e d g e a s t o
h o w I c a m e i n to p o s s e s s i o n o f s a i d d o c u m e n ts . T h is i s n o w t o
b e r e c ti f ie d a n d I’ m s t ill w a i ti n g a c o v e r in g l e t t e r f r o m t h e
10

o ffic e o f t h e n a ti o n a l h e a d o f t h e D P C I . I p o in t e d o u t o n
n u m e r o u s o c c a s i o n s th a t t h e e ff e c t o f t h e n o n e d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n
o f s a i d d o c u m e n ts le a d s t o th e c a s e b e i n g s tr u c k o ff t h e C o u r t
r o l l o r to a n a p p lic a ti o n a g a i n s t t h e S A P S t o f o r c e t h e m t o
d e c l a s s i fy s a m e . W e h a v e n o w t h e e m b a r r a s s in g s i t u a t io n
w h e r e t h e c a s e w a s in d e e d s t r u c k o ff th e C o u r t r o ll . U n d e r t h e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s , I’ m i n t h e c r o s s a s t o w h a t I n e e d t o d o n e x t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , th a t w a s t h e e m a i l th a t y o u s e n t t o B r i g a d ie r

Moodley?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . M a y b e b e f o r e w e g o f u r t h e r, w e a r e a t n e a r ly

1 7 h 2 0 . M a y b e i f e v e r y b o d y i s s t il l a b le t o m a y b e , m a y b e w e c a n g o u p
t o s i x . I ’ m n o t s u r e b u t I ’ m in c l in e d to t h i n k t h a t i f Mr R o e l o fs e i s
a v a i la b le to m o r r o w m o r n i n g t h a t w e c o n t in u e to m o r r o w m o r n i n g b e fo r e I
h e a r t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e w i t n e s s w h o i s s c h e d u l e d fo r t o m o r r o w. S o
t h a t w e t r y a n d fi n i s h h is e v i d e n c e . B u t o b v i o u s ly i t w o u l d b e b e t t e r t o

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t a k e a s l i tt l e ti m e t o m o r r o w a s p o s s ib le b u t a t t h e s a m e t i m e I c a n ’ t
c o n ti n u e f o r to o l o n g . H o w i s y o u r s i t u a ti o n t o m o r r o w ? H o w is y o u r
a v a i la b ili t y t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I w i ll m a k e m y s e l f a v a i la b le , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w i ll m a k e y o u r s e l f a v a i l a b l e . M a y b e l e t ’s g o u p t o
1 7 h 3 0 a n d t h e n I’ ll s e e w h e t h e r I s a y 6 o ’c l o c k b u t t h e n i f w e g o t o 6
o ’c l o c k th e n w e d e f in i te ly s to p . I t h in k I’ ll n e e d t o g o a n d j u s t s l e e p
o th e r w i s e t h i s f lu is n o t g o in g t o g o a w a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b l e m , C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , o k a y l e t’s c o n ti n u e . D i d y o u g e t a r e s p o n s e f r o m
B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y t o y o u r e m a il e i t h e r b y w a y o f a n o th e r e m a i l o r
d is c u s s io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, w e p r o b a b l y d is c u s s e d

s o m e t h i n g b u t I d i d n ’ t e x p e c t a n e m a il b a c k fr o m h i m w i t h r e g a r d s to
t h e e m a i l th a t I s e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h o u g h t y o u s a id s o m e t h i n g . D id y o u s a y t h e r e
is s o m e th i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o , C h a ir. S o r r y, w h a t I s a id is , I
d i d n ’ t e x p e c t a n e m a il b a c k fr o m h i m .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B u t I p r e s u m e w e d i d d is c u s s i t

a ft e r w a r d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. O k a y y o u w e r e j u s t s h a r in g w i t h h i m y o u r
fr u s tr a ti o n .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.

Page 214 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
CHAIRPERSON:

And you didn’t expect that there was going to be

much else he could do himself.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. H e w a s

f a c i n g t h e s a m e s i t u a ti o n a s I d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . Is B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y s ti ll w i t h i n D P C I?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

H e is , C h a ir. H e is n o w t h e

p r o v i n c i a l h e a d I t h i n k in t h e Fr e e S t a t e o f t h e D P C I .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y c o n ti n u e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A t p a g e 5 9 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t , y o u w e r e
10

in f o r m e d th a t th e r e w a s a n n e w n a t io n a l h e a d o f c o r r u p ti o n w h o w a s
a p p o i n t e d w i t h i n D P C I.
CHAIRPERSON: And what page are you now?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Page 59.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A t t h e b o tt o m p a r a g r a p h 2 0 4 .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

P le a s e

e l u c i d a te

on

your

e n g a g e m e n ts w i t h th is n e w i n d iv i d u a l, o ffi c ia l s o r r y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a ir th is , s o r r y. M a j o r G e n e r a l

Zi n h l e M o n o n o p e w a s a p p o in t e d a s a D P C I n a ti o n a l h e a d c o r r u p t i o n .
B r i g a d ie r M o o d le y a n d I b r ie f e d h e r s h o r tl y a f t e r h e r a p p o i n t m e n t
r e g a r d in g t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n i n t o t h e a l le g e d c r i m in a l c o n d u c t o f C I
m e m b e r s . I c o u l d s e e f r o m h e r r e a c ti o n t h a t s h e w a s s h o c k e d a n d
e x p r e s s in g e a g e r n e s s t o a s s is t in t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w h e r e s h e c o u l d .
S h e w a s a p p o in t e d i n t h e v a c a n t p o s t i n w h ic h Br i g a d i e r M o o d l e y w a s

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
a c ti n g . O n t h e 1 2 t h o f J u l y 2 0 1 5 , I r e c e iv e d a n e m a i l w i th a l e t t e r d a t e d
1 0 J u ly a t ta c h e d fr o m A d v o c a t e … ( i n d is ti n c t) . T h e l e t te r w a s a u th o r e d
b y th e n e w N D P P A d v o c a t e S e a n A b r a h a m s a n d a d d r e s s e d t o G e n e r a l
N h l e m e z a r e q u e s ti n g a m e e t in g o n 1 3 J u ly 2 0 1 5 a t 1 4 h 0 0 t o d is c u s s
t h e d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n o f t h e d o c u m e n ts w h i c h w e r e i n m y p o s s e s s io n . A
c o p y o f A b r a h a m s l e t t e r is a t ta c h e d a s p e r K D R 4 6 .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h a t t h e r e is a n y n e e d t o
a d d r e s s t h a t p a r tic u l a r A n n e x u r e b e c a u s e it c e r t a i n l y c o n fi r ms w h a t th e
e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u ’v e j u s t g iv e n . W h a t t h e n … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I s a i d e a r ly o n th a t I th o u g h t Mr N x a s a n a l e f t t o t h e
o ffic e o f t h e N D P P a r o u n d A u g u s t b u t I s e e t h a t a c c o r d i n g to y o u r
a ffi d a v i t a lr e a d y o n 1 2 J u ly 2 0 1 5 , y o u w e r e r e c e iv i n g a l e t t e r fr o m
A d v o c a t e S e a n A b r a h a m s w h o I ta k e i t h a d b e e n a p p o in t e d a s N D P P.
So, I hope you have got the dates right.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir, i f I m a y ? I h a v e a c t u a l ly b e e n
a b l e t o tr a c e t h e a ffi d a v it o f M r M x o li s i N x a s a n a t h a t w a s p r e s e n t e d
b e f o r e th e C o m m is s i o n . A n d th e d a t e s i n p a r a g r a p h t h r e e o f h i s
a ffi d a v i t i n f o r m s t h a t h is t e r m o f o ffic e w a s fr o m 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 t o 3 1
M a y 2 0 1 5 . F o l lo w in g w h i c h A d v o c a t e S e a n A b r a h a ms w a s a p p o i n te d o n

20

the 18th of June 2015 to the 13th of August.
CHAIRPERSON: So, he left end of May?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s , C h a ir w h ic h w a s a b o u t t w o

w e e k s a f t e r h e s e n t t h a t le t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r h e h a d w r i t t e n t h a t le t t e r ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s , C h a ir.

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. T h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o , t h i s p a r t ic u l a r l e t te r is t h e n a n

in v i te c a ll in g y o u t o a m e e t in g . Is th a t r i g h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What h appened then on the 13th of

July 2015?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r, I w a s a g a i n s u m m o n e d t o

a tt e n d a m e e ti n g a t 11 o ’c l o c k c o n v e n e d b y G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a a t a
D P C I h e a d o ffic e i n Si lv e r t o n . T h e m e e ti n g w a s a t t e n d e d b y G e n e r a l
10

N h l e m e z a , G e n e r a l M o n o n o p i, B r i g a d i e r M o o d le y a n d a p e r s o n u n k n o w n
t o m e a t t h e ti m e . B e f o r e th e m e e ti n g s t a r t e d , I w a s h a n d e d a d o c u m e n t
t h a t I h a d to s i g n w h ic h s ta t e d t h a t I m a y n o t d iv u l g e a n y c l a s s i fi e d
in f o r m a ti o n . Th is i s s o m e t i m e s d o n e w h e n a g r o u p d i s c u s s i o n ta k e s
p l a c e i n r e s p e c t o f t h e m e r i ts o f a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n . I t is d o n e t o
s a f e g u a r d t h e i n t e g r i ty o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n . I r e a liz e d a f t e r c o n c lu s i o n
o f th e m e e ti n g th a t t h e r e w a s n o r e a s o n f o r m e t o s ig n t h e d o c u m e n t
lik e th a t w h ic h I d i d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

If you can just pause there for a

s e c o n d . Yo u a r e c a l l e d t o a m e e ti n g o n th e s a m e d a t e a t 2 o ’c l o c k w i th
20

A d v o c a t e S e a n A b r a h a m s . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir. T h i s

m e e ti n g is ju s t n o t h a p p e n i n g ju s t b e fo r e t h a t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A t 11 o ’c lo c k ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A t 11 o ’c l o c k .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n t h e 1 3 t h o f J u ly ?

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Please… (intervention).
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id G e n e r a l N h le m e z a k n o w a b o u t t h e l e t te r t h a t y o u
h a d r e c e i v e d a s k in g fo r a m e e ti n g o r h a d h e b e e n s e n t h is o w n c o p y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, I p r e s u m e h e w o u l d h a v e

r e c e i v e d h i s o w n c o p y o f t h e l e t te r I r e c e iv e d w a s v i a A d v o c a te R is o
w a s t h e p r o s e c u t o r i n th e m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d t h e l e t t e r i ts e l f , d id m e n ti o n t h a t G e n e r a l

N h l e m e z a w a s m e a n t t o a t t e n d a s w e ll ?
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

C h a ir, it m a y a s s i s t if I c o u l d t a k e

y o u t o th e l e t t e r t o th e e v id e n c e o f M r R o e l o fs e .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o a c t u a ll y I th in k t h e a n s w e r is a t p a r a g r a p h

2 0 5 . It s a y s th e l e t t e r w a s a l s o a d d r e s s e d t o G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a . S o , h e
w o u ld h a v e k n o w n fr o m t h e l e tt e r. H e g o t h is o w n , I t h i n k .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , c o n ti n u e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t tr a n s p ir e d a t t h is m e e t in g w i t h
General Nhlemeza on this 13th of July 2015?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, i n s h o r t … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t c o n fi r m fir s t . W h o w a s a t t h e m e e t in g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: It was General Nhlemeza, General
M o n o n o p i , B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y, m y s e lf a n d th e n I t h in k i t w a s t h e s ta ff
o ffic e r o f G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a b u t I’ m n o t s u r e . I d i d n ’ t k n o w h i m a t th e
ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e m e e t in g ?

Page 218 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a in s tr u c te d m e

n o t t o i n v e s t ig a t e t h e m a t t e r a n y f u r t h e r a n d b e c a u s e t h e m a tt e r w a s
s tr u c k o ff t h e r o l l o f th e C o u r t r o l l . I u n d e r s t o o d t h e m a t t e r t o m e a n t h e
C I c r i m in a l i n v e s t ig a ti o n s w h ic h in c l u d e d t h e o r i g i n a l M d l u li / B a r n a r d
c r i m i n a l m a t t e r. G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a in s t r u c t e d m e n o t t o e n g a g e w i t h t h e
N PA o n t h e m a t t e r. G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a a p p o i n t e d Br ig a d i e r M o o d l e y a s
t h e c h i e f in v e s t i g a t in g o ff ic e r f o r t h e m a t t e r. I a m in s t r u c t e d t o s t o p t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n . G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a i n f o r m e d m e t h a t h e w il l a t t e n d t h e
m e e ti n g a t 1 4 h 0 0 la t e r th a t d a y a lo n e a n d G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a tr i e d t o
10

in ti m i d a te m e b y a s k i n g , b y r a is i n g a l u n c h th a t I s u p p o s e d ly h a d w i th
G e n e r a l J a c o b s t h a t n e e d e d t o b e i n v e s t ig a te d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s th e c o n te x t o f th a t in t i mi d a ti o n y o u ta lk

a b o u t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, h e w a s n o t s p e a k i n g

d ir e c t ly t o m e . H e w a s s p e a k in g t o G e n e r a l M o n o n o p i a d d r e s s i n g h e r
butt speaking about me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a n te d y o u t o h e a r b u t t a l k i n g t o h e r ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H e w a n te d m e to h e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

MR KOBUS DEM EYER ROELOF SE: So, he was asking her how far is
t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n w i th r e g a r d s t o m y s e l f a n d G e n e r a l J a c o b s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d f r o m t h e g is t o f w h a t h e is

tr y i n g to a s k fr o m h e r, w h a t h e ’s a s k i n g h e r is t h a t w e a p p a r e n t ly h a d
lu n c h to g e th e r a n d .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y w o u l d i t b e a p r o b le m t o h a v e lu n c h w i th G e n e r a l
Jacobs or Jacobs?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir p e r s o n , w e l c o m e t o t h e

t w i li g h t z o n e . I r e a ll y d o n o t k n o w. T h a t ’s w h a t I a s k e d a s w e ll . I s a i d I
d i d n o t h a v e lu n c h b u t i f I h a d w h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n th e , w h e r e is t h e
w r o n g d o i n g i n th a t ? W h a t d i d I d o w r o n g ? I n e v e r g o t a n a n s w e r. I d o
n o t k n o w w h e t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s d o n e o r n o t b u t I t h i n k t h a t w a s
s a i d f o r my b e n e fi t . S o , t h a t t h e c o n t e x t o f t h a t c o m m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , s o n o w f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e y o u a r e g e t t in g a c l e a r
10

in s t r u c t i o n fr o m h i m t h a t y o u s h o u ld s to p t h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n . Yo u s h o u l d
n o t c o n ti n u e w i t h t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b u t o n t h e b a s is o f w h a t h e s a id a t th e m e e t in g is
n o t a s i f h e w a s s a y i n g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n m u s t n o t b e c o n ti n u e d . H e j u s t
w a n t e d s o m e b o d y e ls e to c o n d u c t t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n a n d n o t y o u .
MR

KOBUS DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, a g a i n

that was

for

a p p e a r a n c e s a k e b e c a u s e l a te r o n I d e a l w i t h th a t . B u t a g a in , B r i g a d i e r
M o o d l e y w a s tr a n s f e r r e d p r o b a b ly a m o n t h a f t e r t h a t a n d n o o n e e ls e
w a s g iv e n t h e a u th o r i ty o r w a s a s k e d t o c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o b u t y o u s a y a s a t t h a t m e e t i n g y o u h a d t h e

s u s p i c i o n t h a t p u t ti n g B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y in t o t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s n ’ t
m e a n t in a n y s e r i o u s w a y f o r p u r p o s e th a t h e s h o u ld p u r s u e t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: It was just for appearance.

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is what I.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is h o w y o u v ie w e d i t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s h o w I v i e w e d i t . C h a ir,

B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y w a s n o t , h e k n e w a b o u t t h e fa c t s o f t h e c a s e . H e
w a s n o t i n v o lv e d i n t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n . It w a s a m a s s iv e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
Yo u d o n ’ t ju s t g i v e t h a t fr o m o n e p e r s o n t o a n o t h e r w i t h o u t p r o p e r
h a n d o v e r a n d e x p l a n a ti o n . I w o u l d h a v e b e e n p r o b a b ly b u s y w it h t h e
c a s e f o r t h e n e x t s ix m o n t h s ju s t t o h a n d e d o v e r to B r ig a d i e r M o o d le y.
T h a t ’s w h y I k n e w i t w a s n o t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w a s n o t m e a n t i n a s e r io u s w a y.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t w a s n o t m e a n t in a s e r i o u s w a y.
I d i d n o t e x p e c t t h a t h e w o u l d tr a n s f e r B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y b u t t h a t
in d e e d h a p p e n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e s a y a t t h is m e e ti n g w h y h e w a s , h e d id n ’ t w a n t
y o u t o b e t h e o n e c o n ti n u i n g w it h i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o , C h a ir. H e d id n ’t g iv e m e a n y

reason.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u a s k h i m ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C h a i r, w h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e

point?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H e w o u l d n ’ t h a v e g iv e n m e e v e n i f
h e h a d g iv e n m e a n a n s w e r, I w o u l d n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r th a t ’s a n h o n e s t
answer or not.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . A p a r t f r o m w h a t y o u h a v e p u t h e r e a s w h a t

Page 221 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
tr a n s p ir e d , w a s t h e r e a n y o t h e r, w e r e th e r e a n y o t h e r t h i n g s t h a t w e r e
d is c u s s e d a t t h i s m e e t in g o r w a s t h e m e e ti n g j u s t f o r p u r p o s e s o f h i m
t e ll i n g y o u th is ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELO FSE:

C h a ir, t h a t is w h a t I s u s p e c t .

T h e r e w a s n o t m u c h d is c u s s e d a f t e r t h i s b u t w h a t a c t u a ll y, w h a t w a s
v e r y, w h a t w a s v e r y w o r r y in g t o m e is t h e f a c t t h a t G e n e r a l M o n o n o p i
w h o m w e b r i e fe d a n d w h o e x p r e s s e d a n o p i n i o n r e g a r d i n g t h is th a t s h e
d i d n ’ t d o a n y th in g t o i n t e r v e n e . I u n d e r s t a n d B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y ’s
p o s i ti o n b e c a u s e h e w a s in t h e s a m e s i tu a ti o n a s I a m . H e w a s a l s o s e t
10

a s i d e a n d n o t l is te n e d to . S o , I w a s a c t u a lly, I w a s v e r y, I w a s
p e r t u r b e d b y h e r, b y th e f a c t t h a t s h e d i d n o t e v e n m e n t io n t h e f a c t t h a t
t h is is w r o n g y o u c a n ’ t d o t h i s . S h e d i d n ’ t s a y a w o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , w a s B r ig a d i e r M o o d l e y a l a d y, a w o m a n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o , B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y w a s a ls o a
man.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I ’ m t a lk in g a b o u t M a j o r G e n e r a l

Mononopi.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh Mononopi because she was the head of your unit
20

now?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is correct, yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d a t t h e f ir s t m e e t in g th a t y o u h a d h a d w i t h

h e r w h e r e y o u b r i e fe d h e r a b o u t th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n , s h e h a d a p p e a r e d t o
b e in t e r e s t e d in a s s is t in g .
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. I h a d t h e

Page 222 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
i m p r e s s io n t h a t s h e w a s g e n u i n e ly s h o c k e d w h e n h e a r i n g th e e x t e n t o f
t h is a n d t h a t s h e w a n te d to a s s is t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . S o , n o b o d y e ls e s a id a n y t h i n g o f s u b s t a n c e

r e a l ly o t h e r t h a n w h a t G e n e r a l N h le m e z a s a i d . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

J a , C h a ir i t w a s n ’t a d is c u s s i o n

a b o u t i t w a s ju s t g iv e n t h i s i s w h a t I’ m s a y i n g a n d t h i s is w h a t y o u ’r e
going to do.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

S o , t h e r e w a s n ’t a c t u a l ly a

d is c u s s io n th a t to o k p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o , a n d h e d id n ’t s a y w h y h e w a s g o in g t o b e t h e
o n ly o n e a tt e n d i n g t h e 2 o ’ c l o c k m e e ti n g w i t h t h e N PA o n t h e m a t t e r
w h e n o n e y o u w e r e t h e o n e w h o h a d b e e n in v e s t i g a t in g t h e m a t t e r. B u t
e v e n if y o u a r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o a t te n d t h a t m e e ti n g n o w b e c a u s e y o u
w e r e o ff t h e c a s e . T h e n Br ig a d i e r M o o d l e y w h o w a s g o i n g t o i n v e s t ig a t e
t h e m a t t e r w h y h e w a s n o t g o in g t o b e ta k e n a l o n g . H e d i d n ’ t g i v e y o u
an explanation.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H e d i d n ’ t g iv e a n y r e a s o n ; h e a l s o
d i d n ’ t i n v i te h i m .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d h e k n e w n o th i n g a b o u t t h e c a s e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : B r i g a d i e r M o o d l e y … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a t l e a s t fr o m w h a t i n t e r m s o f d o c u m e n ts t h a t y o u
had.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t, C h a ir. H e w o u l d

h a v e k n o w n f r o m t h e c a s e in t e r m s o f t h e m e m o s a n d th e f e e d b a c k t h a t

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
I gave him.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s a l l h e w o u l d h a v e k n o w n ? U n l e s s t h e r e w a s

s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e h a d e ls e w h e r e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir. H e d i d n ’ t

h a v e a c c e s s t o t h e a c t u a l d o c k e t . S o , h e d id n ’t r e a d t h r o u g h t h e
a ffi d a v i t . H e d i d n ’ t h a v e t h a t k i n d o f a c c e s s . H e c o u ld h a v e i f h e a s k e d
b u t h e w a s th e h e a d a n d h e d e a lt w i t h h i s o w n is s u e s a s t h e h e a d o f
t h e o r th e a c ti n g h e a d o f t h a t u n i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o f c o u r s e , a s I r e c a l l n o w t h e le t t e r fr o m t h e N PA
10

c a l li n g f o r t h is m e e t i n g i ts p u r p o s e w a s t o d i s c u s s t h e i s s u e o f
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n t s . Is n ’ t i t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w i t h o u t t h o s e d o c u m e n ts b e i n g d e c l a s s i fi e d t h e

case could not proceed.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e w a s a g a i n s t t h e , w a s h e a g a i n s t th e

d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n in t e r m s o f w h a t h e h a d p r o n o u n c e d l e a v i n g o u t y o u r
o w n a n a ly s is o f t h e s i t u a t io n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r, h e d id n ’ t s a y a n y t h in g . H e
20

d i d n ’ t p r o n o u n c e o n t h e d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n i ts e l f . H e p r o n o u n c e d o n t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t w o u l d i n c l u d e th e n t h e

d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 224 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o , t h a t is h o w I … T h a t is w h a t

tr a n s p ir e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H e s t o p p e d th e in v e s t i g a t io n w h ic h
t h e n a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d a l s o s t o p p e d th e d e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n
process.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y y e s c o n ti n u e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n o t e th e t i m e b u t I’ m g u i d e d b y y o u
C h a ir. I n o t e th e ti m e b u t I ’ m g u id e d b y y o u .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M a y b e l e t’s g o to q u a r te r t o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Mr R o e l o fs e , if I c o u ld a s k y o u t o

t u r n t o A n n e x u r e 4 7 w h ic h s t a r ts a t p a g e 4 3 3 p l e a s e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t ’s th e p a g e ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : 4 3 3 . Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h is i s a n e m a il
a u t h o r e d b y y o u r s e l f w h ic h y o u s e n t t o B r i g a d ie r M o o d l e y d a te d t h e
1 5 t h o f J u ly 2 0 1 5 a t 1 7 h 3 8 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t i s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e e m a il ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

To s h o w t h a t I a m w o r k i n g

o v e r ti m e , C h a ir. T h e p u r p o s e o f t h e e m a i l w a s to d e a l w i t h t h e m e e t in g
t h a t tr a n s p ir e d o n t h e 1 3 t h .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o , t h is w a s t h e n a r e c o r d a l o f
y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g a s to t h e o u tc o m e s o f t h e m e e t in g t h a t w a s h a d
with General Nhlemeza and others?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Tw o d a y s b e f o r e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is correct.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e p a g e y o u in f o r m
o r y o u r e c o r d r a t h e r th a t t h e f o ll o w i n g i n s tr u c ti o n s w e r e i s s u e d
r e g a r d in g th e a b o v e - m e n ti o n e d i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a t th e m e e ti n g w i t h M a j o r
G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a o n 2 0 1 5 - 0 7 a t 11 o ’c lo c k . A n d i n d o i n g s o , y o u t h e n
d is t in g u i s h e d b e t w e e n tw o c a s e n u m b e r s , s o r r y t h r e e c a s e n u m b e r s .
T h e f ir s t t w o i s u n d e r o n e li n e fi r s t b e i n g L i t t le t o n c a s e 4 3 2 / 0 11 / 2 0 11
a n d Vo s l o o r u s c a s e 3 4 2 / 0 2 /1 9 9 . W h ic h c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n s w e r e
10

these?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, th e t w o t h a t I m e n t io n e d o n
t o p a r e t h e o n e s th a t w a s a lr e a d y i n c o u r t t h a t p r o c e e d e d i n c o u r t . I
t h i n k i t is a g a i n m y o p i n i o n r e g a r d in g t h i s . I t w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n , i t
w o u ld h a v e b e e n v e r y s u s p ic io u s i f h e t h e n a s k e d m e to s te p d o w n fr o m
t h e s e c a s e s a s w e ll a s i t w a s a l r e a d y i n c o u r t a n d w e w e r e l e a d i n g
e v i d e n c e a t th e ti m e o n t h e s e s p e c i fi c m a tt e r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o , y o u r e c o r d it t o b e y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t y o u r e m a i n to b e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ff ic e r o n th e s e
m a t t e r s . Is th a t r i g h t?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s h o w I r e c o r d e d i t, y e s

C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

The next case number that you

r e fe r e n c e d t h e r e is S il v e r to n c a s e 1 5 5 /0 7 / 2 0 11 .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h ic h c a s e is t h is ?

Page 226 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h is is n o w th e C I i n v e s t ig a t io n ,

t h e o n e w h e r e w h ic h s ta r t e d w i t h th e B M W a n d th e n i t in c l u d e d t h e
o th e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t w e r e s u p p o s e d to b e r e - e n r o ll e d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : If y o u t u r n t h e p a g e a t p a g e 4 3 4 y o u
m a k e a f e w a s s e r ti o n s . I n t h e m i d d l e o f th e p a g e .
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : 4 3 4 w h i c h is t h e n e x t p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

C a n y o u p l e a s e r e a d th e fu ll

a s s e r t io n s t h a t y o u m a k e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A t t h e to p o f t h e p a g e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l h i m e x a c tl y w h e r e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o , i t’s i n t h e m id d l e o f t h e p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t a r t in g w i t h ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i t s t a r ts w it h th e w o r d s , I d o n o t
k n o w w h a t th e i n te n ti o n is o f s u c h a th r e a t . A n d th e fo ll o w i n g w o r d
b e g in s f ir s t ly. Fo ll o w i n g s e n t e n c e , s o r r y b e g i n s w i t h f ir s t ly.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

F i r s t ly, I d i d n o t h a v e lu n c h w i t h

t h e i n d iv id u a l s a s m e n t io n e d . I t h i n k t h e l a s t t i m e I s a w M a j o r G e n e r a l
20

J a c o b s w a s a b o u t tw o y e a r s a g o . S e c o n d ly, if I d i d s e e h i m a n d h a d
lu n c h

with

him

what

would

be

the

tr a n s g r e s s i o n ?

S u r e l y,

th e

tr a n s g r e s s i o n c a n n o t l ie w i t h w h o m I h a v e lu n c h . T h ir d ly, i f t h a t i s n o t a
tr a n s g r e s s i o n , I w o u l d lik e t o b e a d v is e d o f w h a t I a m a c c u s e d o f. In
t h e s a m e v e in , I w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t M a j o r G e n e r a l J a c o b s w o u ld b e
a d v is e d o f s a m e .

Page 227 of 233

19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e la s t p o i n t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I’ m g iv i n g n o t ic e t h a t I in t e n d t o

t a k e t h is m a t te r f u r th e r a s i t is t h e t h i r d i n c i d e n t I a m b e i n g fa ls e l y
a c c u s e d o f i n l e s s t h a n f o u r m o n t h s . I n t h is r e g a r d , I r e f e r to t h e …
( in d is ti n c t) s a g a a n d a c c u s a t io n s t h a t t h e y il l e g a lly o b ta i n e d c l a s s i fi e d
in f o r m a ti o n a n d i s b y d e fi n i t io n i ll e g a ll y i n p o s s e s s i o n th e r e o f d u e t o
t h e f a c t t h a t I d i d n o t h a v e s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D id y o u i n fa c t t a k e t h is m a t t e r

f u r th e r a s y o u r e c o r d e d t h e r e ?
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, I g a v e i t s o m e t h o u g h t a n d I
t h o u g h t , I j u s t c a m e t o t h e c o n c l u s io n i t’s n o t g o i n g t o g e t a n y w h e r e .
S o , I d id n ’t t a k e i t a n y f u r t h e r.
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

And

did

you

r e c e iv e

any

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o s u g g e s t t h a t w h a t y o u r e c o r d e d i n th is e m a i l a s y o u r
a c c o u n t o f w h a t tr a n s p ir e d a t t h e m e e ti n g w a s i n a c c u r a te in a n y w a y ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o , C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: We can go back to page 61.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w a s Br ig a d i e r M o o d l e y ’s r e s p o n s e i f a n y a t th e
m e e ti n g w e r e G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a s a i d h e w a s t h e o n e w h o s h o u l d t a k e
20

o v e r th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . D id h e j u s t k e e p q u i e t? D i d h e s a y o k a y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B r ig a d i e r M o o d l e y I t h i n k t h e

c ir c u m s ta n c e s d i d n ’ t a l lo w h i m t o s a y, to s a y m u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y a n y t h in g , j a .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O r to s a y a n y t h i n g . I c a n n o t e v e n
r e m e m b e r i f h e d id s a y a n y th i n g .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r o ff h a n d

w h a t w a s s a i d b y h i m i f i n d e e d h e d i d s a y a n y th in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Between that date and the date when he was

tr a n s fe r r e d , d i d h e a s k f o r a m e e t in g t o d is c u s s t h e h a n d o v e r o f t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n to h i m ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o , C h a ir b e c a u s e I k n o w th a t h e
w a s a l s o , h e a l s o k n e w t h a t h e w a s n o t in v e s t i g a t in g o ffi c e r. H e w a s
n e v e r i n t e n d e d to b e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti n g o ffi c e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: So, your assessment is that both you and he were of
t h e s a m e v i e w t h a t G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a w a s n o t s e r i o u s in s a y in g t h a t
y o u s h o u l d t a k e o v e r t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I s t h e r e a n y t h in g t h a t Br i g a d i e r M o o d l e y s a i d t o
you which made you think that?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, w e w o u l d h a v e d i s c u s s e d i t
a ft e r w a r d s b e c a u s e h e w o u l d h a v e a s k e d m e . H e d id a s k m e a c t u a ll y
f o r th e c l a s s if i e d d o c u m e n ts a n d h e s a i d t o m e t h a t ’s t h e o n l y th in g t h a t
h e c a n d o i s to h o l d o n th e c l a s s i fi e d , h o ld o n to t h e c la s s i f ie d

20

d o c u m e n ts t h a t n e e d s to b e d e c l a s s i fi e d . A n d w e p u t t h a t, w e p l a c e d
that

into

h is

safe.

So,

that

was

the

e x te n t

of

what

he.

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d id .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e d i d b e c a u s e n o t h i n g e ls e i s

g o i n g t o , w a s g o i n g t o h a p p e n w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e i n s tr u c ti o n b y G e n e r a l
Nhlemeza.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I j u s t l ik e to r e fe r t o o n e p o i n t

w h ic h I a c t u a l ly fo r g o t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W h ic h I a d d r e s s i n t h i s e m a il .

S o m e t h i n g th a t G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a s a id . H e s t a te d in , h e s t a te d d u r i n g
t h e m e e ti n g M a j o r G e n e r a l a n d t h is is n o w m y q u o t e fr o m t h is . M a jo r
G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a w o u ld m e e t th e N D P P a l o n e o n 2 0 1 5 - 0 7 - 1 3 . M a j o r
G e n e r a l N h l e m e z a w il l in f o r m t h e N D P P t o a p p o in t n e w p r o s e c u t o r s i n
10

t h is m a t t e r. S o , t h a t w a s t h e e x t e n t in t e r m s o f w h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o d o
a t t h e m e e t in g w i t h t h e N D P P.
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry I may have missed that. What did you say

h e w a s g o in g to d o a t th e m e e ti n g ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : H e s a i d h e is g o i n g t o s a y t o th e ,
in f o r m e d t h e N D P P, n o t a s k , i n fo r m e d t h e N D P P t o a p p o i n t n e w
p r o s e c u t o r s i n t h i s m a t te r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh, did he say why he would do that? What was

w r o n g w i t h t h e p r o s e c u t o r w h o w a s i n v o lv e d a n d w h e r e d i d h e c o m e i n
o n t h e s e l e c ti o n o f p r o s e c u t o r s ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I d o n o t k n o w, C h a ir. Th a t w a s h is
c o m m e n t a n d it w a s n ’ t j u s t o n e p r o s e c u to r. A t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e t h e r e
was two prosecutors.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t w o r k e d e x te n s iv e l y o n th e

m a t t e r t h a t h a s d r a w n u p a c o m p r e h e n s iv e c h a r g e s h e e t a n d t h a t k n e w

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
t h e m a t t e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , o n e h e d i d n ’ t w a n t to y o u t o c o n ti n u e w i th t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n y e t y o u h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n t h e in v e s t i g a t io n fo r y e a r s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o w h e d i d n ’ t w a n t p r o s e c u to r s o n t h e m a tt e r w h o
h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n th e m a t te r f o r y e a r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A t p o i n t in t i m e p r o b a b ly a y e a r,

y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll , f o r q u it e s o m e ti m e .
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m i g h t n o t b e c a u s e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w o u l d h a v e

p r e c e d e d t h e m a tt e r g o i n g t o th e p r o s e c u t o r s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t h e d i d n ’ t w a n t th e m fr o m w h a t h e s a id ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o , C h a ir. I d o n o t k n o w w h y

because he hasn’t met them before.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEM EYER ROEL OFSE: So, I would know why he want to
make that comment.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : G u i d e d b y y o u , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e a t q u a r t e r t o . I t h i n k w e w il l s to p n o w. W e a r e
le f t w i th a b o u t , w h a t? 1 3 p a g e s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s , it ’s a b o u t 11 p a g e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t 11 p a g e s ?

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A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k th e p a c e a t w h ic h w e h a v e b e e n g o i n g is s u c h
t h a t m a y b e i t w o u l d b e u n r e a l is t ic to t h i n k w e c a n d o 1 0 p a g e s in t w o o r
t h r e e h o u r s b e c a u s e t o d a y w e d i d a b o u t 1 3 p a g e s . W e s ta r t e d a t 4 7 is
it ? P a g e 4 7 .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s , C h a ir. Th e p r o g r e s s io n h a s b e e n
d i ff e r e n t o n t h e d i ffe r e n t d a y s s i n c e w e s t a r t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I’ m w o n d e r i n g , n o I ’ m n o t b l a m in g a n y b o d y.
I’ m t a l k i n g a b o u t o u r p a c e a ll o f u s a n d p r o b a b l y I s h o u ld e x c l u d e t h e
10

w i t n e s s . H e h a s n o c o n t r o l o n w h o a s k e d h i m q u e s t io n s w h e n a n d h o w
m a n y q u e s t io n s . B u t I w o u l d r e a lly p r e fe r u s t o fi n i s h t h e e v i d e n c e o f
t h is w it n e s s r a t h e r th a n b r e a k i t u p . B u t m a y b e I t h i n k w e m u s t c o n ti n u e
t o m o r r o w b u t it w o u ld b e o n t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g th a t i f a t a l l p o s s ib l e , I
h o p e w e c a n t r y a n d f i n is h w i t h i n tw o h o u r s . B u t w h a t I ’ m t h i n k in g i s
t h a t i f y o u c a n t h is e v e n i n g l o o k v e r y c lo s e l y t o th e r e m a in i n g p a g e s
a n d t h e A n n e x u r e s t h a t m a y n e e d to b e r e f e r r e d t o . M a y b e th e r e m i g h t
b e a w a y o f s e l e c ti n g th e i m p o r t a n t t h in g s w i t h o u t d o i n g a n y in ju s tic e t o
t h e c a s e , t o t h e e v i d e n c e . A n d th e n l e t’s s e e w h e t h e r w e c a n fi n is h
w i t h i n a s h o r t ti m e .

20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b l e m , C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e w e c o u l d s ta r t a t 0 9 h 3 0 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: As it pleases.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d 1 0 h 3 0 . I d o n ’ t k n o w i f t h e r e is a c h a n c e o f

fi n i s h i n g a t 11 b u t I ’ m v e r y p o o r w h e n i t c o m e s t o e s t i m a ti n g t i m e . S o , I
d o n ’t tr u s t m y e s t i m a t e s v e r y m u c h .

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19 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 167
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I ’ m g u i d e d b y y o u , C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o , I t h in k l e t’s s t a r t a t 0 9 h 3 0 . H o p e fu ll y w e w i ll

fi n i s h a b o u t 11 o r a t t h e v e r y l a t e s t 1 2 o r 11 h 3 0 . J a , t w o h o u r s t o
11 h 3 0 . B u t I t h i n k t h e r e m i g h t b e a c h a n c e i f y o u l o o k c a r e f u ll y a t th e
r e m a in in g p a g e s o f t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d id e n t i fy r e a ll y i m p o r ta n t th in g s
o th e r w i s e o t h e r th i n g s o n e c a n r e a d l a te r b e c a u s e h e h a s c o n fi r m e d
t h a t w h a t h e s a y s i n t h e s t a te m e n t is c o r r e c t . A n d th e A n n e x u r e s o n t h e
Annexures except those were reading them is quite important because
o f t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e c o n t e n t s . O t h e r w i s e h e c o u l d ju s t g i v e th e g is t
10

o f w h a t e a c h A n n e x u r e s a y s w i t h o u t r e a d i n g i t . S o , m a y b e w e c o u l d tr y
t h a t . O k a y w e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n M r R o e l o fs e . W e w il l s ta r t a t 0 9 h 3 0
t o m o r r o w. H o p e f u l ly w e c a n f in is h w i t h i n t w o h o u r s o r s o . O k a y w e
a d j o u r n e d f o r th e d a y. W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : A l l r is e
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 2 0 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9 :

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