C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

17 SEPTEMB ER 2019

D AY 1 6 5

20

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
PROCEEDINGS COM MENCE ON 17 SEPT EMBER 2019
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

m o r n in g

Ms

S e p t e m b e r,

good

m o r n in g

e v e r y b o d y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are you ready?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s w e a r e C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Before we begin there are legal

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s w h o m a y w is h to i n tr o d u c e th e m s e lv e s f o r t h e r e c o r d
10

a n d w i t h y o u le a v e m a y I r e q u e s t th a t th e y d o s o ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t t h e m d o s o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V J O H A N E K S T E E N : M o r n i n g C h a ir. M y n a m e is J o h a n …
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV JOHAN EKSTEEN:

E k s t e e n o f V D K a tt o r n e y s w e a r e h e r e t o

r e p r e s e n t t h e f o r m e r N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f t h e p o l ic e L i e u t e n a n t
General Phahlane.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV JOHAN EKSTEEN:

I w o u ld a ls o j u s t li k e to p l a c e o n r e c o r d

C h a ir t h a t w e h a v e s u b m i tt e d a n a ffi d a v i t t o t h e c o m m is s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV JOHAN EKSTEEN:

R e g a r d i n g th e a l le g a ti o n s w h ic h h e m i g h t b e

i m p l ic a t e d o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 2 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV JOHAN EKSTEEN:

A n d a [ in d i s t in c t ] w a s a ls o d e li v e r e d p e r

h a n d t h is m o r n i n g t o t h e c o m m i s s io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
ADV JOHAN EKSTEEN:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V B A P H I S I L E M T H I M U N Y E : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g I t h i n k I d i d n o t g iv e y o u a c h a n c e t o …
ADV BAPHISILE MTHIMUNYE:

Th a t i s s o .

C H A I R P E R S O N : In tr o d u c e y o u r s e lf .
10

ADV BAPHISILE MTHIMUNYE:

Th a t i s s o C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s n o ti m e y e s t h a n k y o u , .
ADV BAPHISILE MTHIMUNYE:

Ye s . I t is B a p h a s il e M t h i m u n y e fr o m

B a p h a s il e M t h u m u n y e a t t o r n e y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV BAPHISILE MTHIMUNYE:

I a m a p p e a r in g o n b e h a l f o f G e n e r a l

Z u l u . A t t h i s s t a g e w h e r e w e h a v e f il e d a n a ffi d a v i t w e j u s t h a v e h e r
r ig h ts r e s e r v e d a t t h e m o m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a t is fi n e .
ADV BAPHISILE MTHIMUNYE:
20

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M A N N I E K L O W [ ?] : M o r n in g J u d g e .
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV MANNIE KLOW [?]:

Good morning Judge my name is Mannie

K l o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
A D V M A N N I E K L O W [ ?] :

I n i ti a l R .

I a m a n a t t o r n e y fr o m K Z N

Durban.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A N N I E K L O W [ ?] :

I a m i n s tr u c te d b y G e n e r a l P h iy e g a .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A N N I E K L O W [ ?] :

J u d g e w e h a v e n o t s u b m i t t e d a n a ffi d a v i t a s

y e t b u t t h e r e h a s b e e n a n in d ic a t i o n t h a t t h e g e n e r a l w i ll r e s e r v e h e r
r ig h ts t o e it h e r c r o s s - e x a m in e o r t e s t if y i n t h e p r o c e e d in g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
10

A D V M A N N I E K L O W [ ?] :

Thank you Judge.

C H A I R P E R S O N : I g u e s s y o u m e a n s h e w i ll r e s e r v e t h e r ig h t t o a p p l y
for Leave to Cross-examine?
A D V M A N N I E K L O W [ ?] :

If n e c e s s a r y t h a n k y o u J u d g e

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t fo r t h e r i g h t t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e .
ADV MANNIE KLOW [?]:

N o t o b r i n g a n a p p lic a ti o n f o r L e a v e to

Cross-examine.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V M A N N I E K L O W [ ?] :

Thank you Judge.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y I u n d e r s t a n d . A r e y o u r e a d y ?
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s w e a r e C h a ir.

C h a ir t h e

e v i d e n c e t h a t w e a r e p r e s e n t i n g t o d a y is t h a t o f Mr K o b u s R o e l o fs e . H e
is a m e m b e r o f t h e S o u th A f r ic a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e s t h e D ir e c t o r a te o f
P r i o r i t y C r i m e I n v e s ti g a ti o n . T h e e v i d e n c e t h a t h e p r e s e n t s f a l ls w i th in
h is p e r s o n a l e x p e r ie n c e a s a n i n v e s ti g a to r o v e r th e y e a r s b u t s p e c i fi c
t o c e r t a in in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t h e h a s l e d .

Page 4 of 150

The nature of his evidence

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
f a ll s w it h in th e Te r m s o f R e f e r e n c e 1 . 9 i n t h a t h is e v i d e n c e i n t e r r o g a t e s
tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d b e n e fi t s t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o li c e
S e r v ic e s S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t .
bundle.

Chair before you; you have one

T h e b u n d l e w i t h y o u r le a v e i n o r d e r o f p r i o r it y o r in o r d e r o f

s e q u e n c e r a th e r h a s b e e n m a r k e d K K 2 . 1 .

It c o n s is t s o f t h e m a i n

a ffi d a v i t a n d a n n e x u r e s to t h e a ffi d a v it .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e le v e r a r c h fil e c o n ta in i n g t h e a ff i d a v i t o f Mr

K o b u s D e m e y e r R o e l o fs e a n a n n e x u r e s w il l b e m a r k e d E x h i b it K K 2 . 1 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir w e h a v e

t h r e e a d d i ti o n a l b u n d l e s b u t o n e le v e r a r c h b u n d le .

I n f a c t le t m e

correct myself.

W e h a v e t h r e e a d d i ti o n a l b u n d l e s .

Tw o o f w h ic h a r e

r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e s . T h e l e g a l t e a m h a s ta k e n t h e l ib e r ty t o c o m p i l e o n e
b u n d l e w h i c h is – c o n s ti t u te s l e g i s l a ti o n , s o m e r e g u la t o r y fr a m e w o r k
a n d c a s e l a w t h a t t h is e v i d e n c e r e f e r s to i n h is a ffi d a v i t . A n d t h e b u n d l e
is a b u n d l e o f d i a g r a m s w h i c h h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d t o a s s i s t i n t h e
f a c i li t a ti o n o f t h i s e v i d e n c e . T h e l a s t a d d i t io n a l b u n d l e w h ic h is m a r k e d
a g a in b y y o u r l e a v e K K 2 . 2 is in f a c t a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t th a t t h is
w i t n e s s h a s p r o v i d e d a n d th e p u r p o s e o f t h e w i t n e s s t a lk s s p e c i fi c a ll y
t o k e y in d i v i d u a ls t h a t a r e m e n ti o n e d in h i s m a i n a ffi d a v i t . T h e w i t n e s s
20

t h r o u g h h i s e v id e n c e w i ll a d d r e s s y o u o n t h a t w h e n s o n e c e s s a r y a n d
t h a t p a r tic u la r a ff id a v i t e n c l o s e s a s e a l e d b a g w h ic h c o n t a i n s a l is t o f
n a m e s . W i t h y o u r le a v e m a y I h a n d t h e s e – t h is u p to y o u ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W h a t is K K 2 . 4 ? J u s t t h e R e g u l a t o r y fr a m e w o r k ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d c a s e l a w b u n d le y e s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : It d o e s n o t c o n t a i n h is s u p p le m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t ?

Page 5 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o C h a ir it d o e s n o t.

In t h e li t tl e

s o f t fi l e – t h e r e a r e tw o o f t h o s e s o f t f il e s . T h e o n e w h ic h i s m a r k e d b y
y o u r l e a v e K K 2 . 2 i s t h e s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t w it h t h e b r o w n s e a l e d
envelope.
CHAIRPERSON:

What did you say the purpose of this supplementary

a ffi d a v i t is in s o f a r a s y o u – i f it is n o t s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e n o t s u p p o s e d
t o s ta t e p u b l ic l y ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ly a ff id a v i t w a s

p r e p a r e d b y t h e w it n e s s in t h a t t h e r e a r e c e r ta i n …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y I s e e p a r a g r a p h 1 4 is w i th w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f
t h e a ffi d a v i t – s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff id a v i t is . O k a y b u t d o y o u w a n t t o ta lk
to that?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir th e w i t n e s s w il l i n f a c t

t a lk t o i t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Do you need me to address you on

it ?
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I th i n k y o u w a n t to c o n fir m t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t?
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

The purpose of the

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t i s t h a t i t c o n c e r n s t h e p r o te c ti o n o f t h e
id e n t i ti e s o f c e r ta i n i n d iv id u a l s w h o m a y s t il l b e w o r k i n g a s a g e n t s
w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e o f S A P S . Th e a ffi d a v it w h ic h is th e s e a le d –
w h ic h a tt a c h e s t h e s e a le d e n v e l o p e – t h e s e a l e d e n v e lo p e c o n t a in s a
lis t o f n a m e s a l o n g s i d e w h i c h n u m b e r s h a v e b e e n a l lo c a t e d . T h e m a in

Page 6 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
a ffi d a v i t o f th is w it n e s s t h e r e fo r e d o e s n o t r e f e r t o th e id e n ti ti e s o f
t h e s e in d i v i d u a ls b u t o n ly t o t h e n u m b e r s a s in d i c a t e d o n th e l is t i ts e lf .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t u s j u s t c l a r if y th a t .

I s t h e p o s i ti o n t h e

f o ll o w i n g ?
T h a t i s in t h e c o u r s e o f h is e v i d e n c e Mr R o e lo fs e w il l n o t u s e t h e t r u e
n a m e s o f c e r ta i n p e o p l e fo r c e r t a i n r e a s o n s b u t h a s a l lo c a t e d th o s e
p e o p l e n u m b e r s . S o t h e y m a y b e P e te r t h a t h e w i ll d e c i d e n o t to c a l l
P e t e r b u t w i ll c a ll b y a n u m b e r.

H e m ig h t r e fe r t o I d o n o t k n o w

w h e t h e r M r 1 o r M r 2 o r M r N u m b e r 2 , M r N u m b e r 2 0 , Ms N u m b e r 1 5 .
10

Is t h a t h o w – i t t h a t is w h a t i s g o i n g to h a p p e n ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a s n o t t o d iv u lg e th e ir n a m e s ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h o s e n a m e s h e k n o w s th e tr u e n a m e s a n d t h o s e
names are in the sealed envelope that you have given to me?

Not

e n v e l o p e fi le . Is th a t r i g h t?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is o n e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d u lt i m a t e ly i f I o p e n h e r e I w il l fi n d c e r t a i n n a m e s
and a number?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d w h e n I w a n t t o k n o w w h o h e w a s r e f e r r in g t o

w h e n in h is e v i d e n c e h e r e f e r r e d to M s 1 5 f o r e x a m p le a n d I f o u n d – I
w i ll fi n d 1 5 a n d I w il l f in d a n a m e th a t – t o w h ic h 1 5 i s a s s i g n e d ?

Page 7 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d t h e n I w i ll k n o w th a t t h a t i s t h e p e r s o n h e w a s

t a lk in g a b o u t?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u – y o u a r e s a y i n g ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d th e r e a s o n s f o r n o t d i v u lg i n g th a t is t h a t

s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w it h d u r i n g h is e v i d e n c e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d ju s t fo r a c c u r a c y th e n u m b e r s

a r e p r e c e d e d b y t h e le t t e r s F M th a t w a s a c h o ic e o f t h e w i t n e s s
himself.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja for all the numbers?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Fo r a ll t h e n u m b e r s .

So for

example…
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a i t w il l b e F M 1 , F M 2 a n d s o o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . O k a y a l r i g h t . N o w d o y o u w a n t m e t o
20

m a k e a n y o r d e r w i t h r e g a r d t o th is e x h i b i t ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: What order?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e r e q u e s t is t h a t b y v ir tu e o f t h e

s e n s i t iv it y o f t h e l is t o f n a m e s t h e n a m e s n o t b e p l a c e d i n t h e p u b li c
d o m a i n f o r p u b l ic c o n s u m p t i o n . S t e p s h a v e h o w e v e r b e e n – a r e b e i n g

Page 8 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t a k e n b y t h e c o m m i s s i o n t o e s t a b li s h t o w h a t e x t e n t s o m e o f t h o s e
n a m e s m a y b e p u t in t o t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n b u t t h e r e i s n o c l a r i ty a r o u n d
t h a t a t t h a t s t a g e – a t t h i s s ta g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay

le t

us

c o m p le t e

the

s c e n a r io .

Th e

n o n d i s c l o s u r e o f t h e tr u e n a m e s o f s o m e o f t h e i n d i v i d u a ls t o w h i c h h is
e v i d e n c e w il l r e la t e i s a t th is s t a g e p r o v i s i o n a l?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

P e n d i n g e s t a b l is h i n g c e r ta i n i n f o r m a t io n a n d o n c e

t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n h a s b e e n e s ta b lis h e d th e n I w ill b e a p p r o a c h e d e i t h e r
10

t o li f t th e o r d e r o f s e c r e c y a s it w e r e o r t o m a k e it fi n a l ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s it p l e a s e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A r e y o u d o n e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

In a c c o r d a n c e – i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h

t h a t b e a r in g i n m i n d t h a t I d o n o t e v e n h a v e a c o p y o f t h e li s t o f n a m e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I h a v e b e e n in f o r m e d t h a t r e d a c ti o n s

h a v e t a k e n p l a c e i n t h e a n n e x u r e s t o h is s t a te m e n ts f o r t h e v e r y s a m e
20

r e a s o n o f n o t d is c l o s i n g t h e i d e n t it i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir t h e n e x t p o i n t t h a t I n e e d t o

b r i n g t o y o u r a t t e n t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is th a t th e e v id e n c e o f t h is

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
p a r t ic u l a r w i t n e s s r e q u ir e d d e c la s s i f ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts a n d a ll th e
d o c u m e n ts t h a t h a v e b e e n r e q u e s t e d f o r d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n w a s d o n e
a p a r t f r o m o n e d o c u m e n t a n d I a m o b l ig e d t o b r in g t h is t o y o u r – I a m
o b li g e d t o …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o d e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n w a s e ff e c t e d i n r e g a r d to a ll

d o c u m e n ts e x c e p t o n e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

I n m y o b li g a ti o n t o b r i n g t h i s t o y o u

it w a s b y a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d t h e N a t io n a l
C o m m i s s i o n o f P o li c e t h a t t h is o n e d o c u m e n t is p r e s e n t e d fo r y o u r e y e s
o n ly b u t s u b j e c t t o c e r t a in c o n d i ti o n s a n d r e q u ir e m e n ts w h ic h w a s
c o m m u n ic a te d t o t h e m i n a l e tt e r s e n t t o t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o n
t h e 1 3 t h S e p te m b e r a n d w it h y o u r l e a v e I n e e d t o p la c e i t o n r e c o r d .
T h e le t t e r w h ic h w a s s e n t t o t h e m i n fo r m e d :
“ T h a t o n th e 1 6 t h A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 t h e c o m m i s s io n a g r e e d
w i t h t h e S A P S p r o p o s a l o n th e d is c l o s u r e o f t h e
s e a l e d d o c u m e n t in u n - r e d a c t e d f o r m a t to b e p l a c e d
in a s e a l e d e n v e l o p e b e f o r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e

20

c o m m i s s io n .

The

SAPS

a p p r e c ia t e s

that

the

d is c l o s u r e o f th e s e a l e d d o c u m e n ts d o e s n o t i n a n y
w a y d e t r a c t fr o m t h e w i t n e s s g iv in g e v id e n c e i n
r e l a ti o n to t h e s e a le d d o c u m e n ts o r i ts c o n te n ts .
The

agreed

form

of

d i s c lo s u r e

of

the

s e a le d

d o c u m e n ts t h e m s e l v e s w i ll n o t i n a n y w a y d e tr a c t

Page 10 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
fr o m t e s t i m o n y b e i n g d e l iv e r e d o n t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e
s e a l e d d o c u m e n ts fo r a d m is s i o n a s e v i d e n c e a n d d u e
c o n s i d e r a ti o n .

The

sealed

documents

w il l

be

d e c l a s s i fi e d a c c o r d i n g l y a n d i t w a s o n 2 2 n d A u g u s t
2 0 1 9 t h a t t h e s e a l e d d o c u m e n t s w e r e h a n d d e li v e r e d
to

the

c o m m is s i o n

a l th o u g h

not

d e c l a s s i f ie d

a c c o r d i n g l y a n d n o r e a s o n s w e r e p r o v id e d ”
S o b y a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h e p r o c e s s o f d e c l a s s if ic a ti o n s t il l p e n d i n g ?
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n r e l a ti o n t o t h e s e a l e d d o c u m e n t

C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e r e g a r d t o t h e d o c u m e n t?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t is u n d e r s t o o d th a t th e y h a v e

p r o v i d e d t h e d o c u m e n t b u t f o r y o u r e y e s o n ly C h a ir. Th e w i t n e s s i s n o t
prevented or

precluded

fr o m g iv in g e v id e n c e i n r e l a t i o n

to

the

d o c u m e n t b u t it is th e d o c u m e n t i t s e l f t h a t c a n n o t b e d i s c l o s e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t w h a t I w a n t t o f in d o u t is w h e th e r a r e q u e s t fo r
d is - c l a s s i f ic a t i o n w a s d o n e a n d i t i s s t il l p e n d in g o r i t w a s d o n e a n d th e
r e q u e s t h a s b e e n t u r n e d d o w n o r w h a t i s t h e p o s i t io n ?
20

Or was the

request no such request was ever made?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t is o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t t h e

r e q u e s t f o r d e c la s s if ic a ti o n w a s d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t i s t h e o u tc o m e ? W h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

T h e d o c u m e n t w a s n o t d e c la s s i f ie d

f o r p u b li c c o n s u m p t io n . I t w a s o n ly t o b e p r o v i d e d to y o u in a s e a l e d

Page 11 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
e n v e l o p e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s – w a s – w a s th e r e q u e s t d e c li n e d ?

Wa s t h e

r e q u e s t a p p r o v e d ? W a s th e r e q u e s t p a r t ia ll y a p p r o v e d ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e r e q u e s t w a s – i t is a b it o f a n

a n o m a ly C h a ir w it h r e s p e c t t o th e d is c u s s i o n s th a t w e r e h a d i n t h a t i t is
u n d e r s t o o d t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t h a s n o t b e e n d e c la s s if i e d a s s u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t d i d t h e l e g a l t e a m fi n d o u t w h y i t w a s n o t –
w h y t h e r e q u e s t w a s n o t a p p r o v e d fo r d e c l a s s i fic a ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

N o r e a s o n s w e r e g iv e n C h a ir.

Ye s b u t i t i s t h e le g a l t e a m w h ic h m u s t a s k f o r

r e a s o n s . I f y o u d o n o t a s k f o r r e a s o n s y o u w i ll n o t g e t r e a s o n s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir I a m h a p p y to

s t a n d t h is p o i n t d o w n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

U n t il s u c h ti m e t h a t r e a s o n s a r e

once again sought.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Fr o m th e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o li c e

S e r v ic e s o b l ig a ti o n t o i t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I e x c e p t fo r r e a ll y m a y b e e x tr e m e c a s e s I a m n o t
s o i n c li n e d to s e e in f o r m a t io n t h a t I m a y n o t s h a r e w i t h t h e p u b li c . I f
w e h a v e t o h a v e t h a t s i tu a ti o n i t m u s t r e a lly b e a c o m p e lli n g s i t u a t io n
b e c a u s e I – d e c i s i o n s t h a t I m a k e I m u s t j u s ti fy t h e m p u b l ic ly. I a m n o t
s a y in g t h a t t h e r e c a n n e v e r b e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e it w o u l d b e j u s ti f ie d t o
h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e I a m th e o n l y o n e w h o s e e s c e r t a i n i n f o r m a t i o n

Page 12 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
b u t I w o u l d li k e t o r e s e r v e th a t f o r a v e r y r a r e c a s e s . S o y o u c a n r a is e
t h a t i s s u e a f te r y o u h a v e f o u n d o u t e x a c tly w h a t h a p p e n e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir t h e r e is o n e o t h e r p o i n t t h a t I

n e e d to b r i n g t o y o u r a t te n ti o n a n d t h a t is t h e s e c o n d a n n e x u r e to t h is
w i t n e s s ’s s t a te m e n t is a n a ffi d a v it b y a C o l o n e l J a c o b u s J o h a n n e s
H e n d r ic k R o o s .
CHAIRPERSON: What is the surname?
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Roos.

CHAIRPERSON: hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

R-o-o-s.

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
a ffi d a v i t .

For the record.

I t is fi v e p a g e d

I t w a s d e p o s e d to o n t h e 6 t h N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 3 .

With your

le a v e C h a ir a l t h o u g h t h e – C o l o n e l R o o s h a s in f o r m e d o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n
t e a m t h a t h e is a v a i la b le t o g iv e e v id e n c e s h o u ld t h e C h a ir p e r s o n s o
wish.

It is r e q u e s t e d t h a t h i s a ff id a v i t b e s u b m i t t e d a s e v i d e n c e .

In

a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th a t w e h a v e s e n t o u t R u le 3 .3 N o t ic e s . T h e y a r e n o t
20

o n ly i n r e la t io n t o Mr R o e l o fs e ’s a ffi d a v i t b u t a ls o i n r e la t io n t o Mr
R o o s ’s a ffi d a v i t .

I n th is r e g a r d i f I c a n j u s t q u i c k l y a l e r t y o u C h a i r t o

t h e 3 .3 N o t ic e s t h a t w a s s e n t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w h y a r e w e d e a l in g w i th t h a t n o w b e c a u s e M r

R o o s m i g h t b e c a l le d l a te r is it n o t?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir.

Page 13 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . If th is w i tn e s s h a s n e e d to r e fe r to th e a ff i d a v i t
h e c a n r e f e r to th e a ff i d a v i t f o r w h a t i t is w o r t h b u t i f w e a r e g o i n g t o –
y o u a r e g o i n g t o c a ll t h e w it n e s s la t e r l e t u s d e a l w i th t h a t la t e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
o n t h a t C h a ir.

W e w il l b e g u i d e d b y y o u r d ir e c ti o n

T h e r e w e r e 5 3 R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s t h a t w e r e s e n t in

r e s p e c t o f b o t h Mr R o e l o fs e ’s a ffi d a v i t a n d M r R o o s ’s a ffi d a v it .
t h o s e N o t ic e s t o d a t e h a v e b e e n s e n t a n d r e c e iv e d .

49 of

12 of which was

s h o r t o f t h e 1 4 – o f a 1 4 d a y p e r i o d b u t n o n e t h e l e s s h a v e i n fa c t b e e n
received. 1...
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m u c h s h o r t o f th e 1 4 d a y p e r i o d ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

3 o f t h e 4 9 – s o r r y 3 o f th e N o tic e s

w e r e s e n t 1 3 d a y s b e f o r e t h e ti m e . 2 o f t h e N o t ic e s w e r e s e n t 1 2 d a y s
b e f o r e t h e t i m e . 4 N o tic e s w e r e s e n t 11 d a y s b e f o r e t h e t i m e a n d 1
N o t ic e w a s s e n t o n 8 d a y s b e f o r e t h e t i m e , 1 N o t ic e 7 d a y s b e f o r e t h e
ti m e a n d 1 d a y s 4 d a y s b e fo r e th e ti m e .

Th e 4 d a y N o ti c e p e r i o d

t h o u g h w a s c o n s e q u e n t u p o n a d e l a y o f r e c e i p t o f t h e a c t u a l N o ti c e
w h ic h w a s o r i g in a l ly s e n t o u t i n ti m e . B u t a t s o m e s t a g e t h e r e w a s a
f a il u r e o n t h e – o n t h e e m a il th a t w a s s e n t a n d it w a s s u b s e q u e n t ly
d is c o v e r e d t h a t th e c o m p a n y w h ic h is L LV S Tr a d in g S e r v ic e s h a s s i n c e
20

b e e n d e - r e g i s t e r e d . S o a c c o r d in g ly th e N o tic e s w e r e t h e n s e n t t o t h e
la s t r e f e r e n c e d d ir e c t o r s o f t h a t c o m p a n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l th e N o tic e s t o s o m e o f t h e p e o p le w a s v e r y s h o r t
f o r t h is . D o th e y k n o w t h a t M r R o e l o fs e i s g iv i n g e v id e n c e t o d a y ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s C h a ir t h e y h a v e a ll b e e n

n o t i fi e d . T h e r e s p o n s e s t h a t w e h a v e r e c e iv e d o u t s i d e o f G e n – M a j o r

Page 14 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
G e n e r a l P h a h la n e w h o s e r e p r e s e n t a t iv e i s h e r e i s l e t t e r s a n d e m a il s
r e c e i v e d fr o m C o l o n e l T x i m b a [ ? ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja I know you do not have to give me 49 or more

names.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o p r o b le m .

C H A I R P E R S O N : M e n t io n d e p e n d s w h a t t h e p o i n t is y o u w a n t t o m a k e .
I a m c o n c e r n e d s i m p ly a b o u t t h e 4 d a y s a n d I t h in k 8 d a y s o r
something.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Chair in…

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y k n o w th a t h e i s g iv i n g e v id e n c e to d a y ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir t h e y h a v e a ll r e c e iv e d – t h e y

h a v e a l l r e c e iv e d th e N o t ic e s s o t h e y a r e f u lly a w a r e t h a t h e is g iv in g
e v i d e n c e t o d a y. I n l in e w i t h R u l e 3 . 3 i t i s o u r s u b m is s i o n t h o u g h t h a t
t h e N o t ic e s h a v e b e e n g iv e n w i th i n a r e a s o n a b le p e r i o d o f ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n o r d e r f o r th e m t o a d d r e s s a n y

c o n c e r n s a n d p r e p a r e to e i t h e r b e h e r e o r t o ta k e t h e n e c e s s a r y s t e p s
p r o c e e d i n g fo r w a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I do have to however address the

o n e N o t ic e t h a t h a s n o t b e e n r e c e iv e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
G e n e r a l C h r is N g c o b o .

A t a ll . C h a ir t h a t N o ti c e r e la t e s to a

H i s e v i d e n c e i n t h e c o n t e x t o r r a t h e r th is

w i t n e s s g i v e s e v id e n c e i n r e la t io n t o t h is p a r t ic u l a r g e n t l e m a n w h e n h e

Page 15 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
was

the

a c ti n g

D e p u ty

C o m m is s i o n e r

of

Crime

I n te ll ig e n c e .

I

u n d e r s t a n d t h a t e x te n s iv e s t e p s a n d m e a s u r e s h a v e b e e n ta k e n b y t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s t o tr y t o tr a c e G e n e r a l C h r i s N g c o b o u n f o r tu n a te ly t o n o
a v a i l. S o m e o f t h e s te p s t h a t h a v e b e e n t a k e n a r e th e y h a v e c o n t a c t e d
s e n i o r – s e n io r o ff ic i a l s w i th i n C r i m e In t e l l ig e n c e a n d D P C I . T h e y h a v e
c o n ta c t e d D I R C O .

T h e y h a v e s e a r c h e d a ll s o c i a l m e d i a p l a t fo r ms .

T h e y h a v e a d d r e s s e d p l a t fo r m s o f t h e h o m e – o f H o m e A ff a ir s . I t w a s
e s t a b li s h e d th a t h i s w i f e w a s a n e m p l o y e e o f S A R S a n d t h e y h a v e tr i e d
s e v e r a l o c c a s i o n s t o tr y t o c o n t a c t h i s w i f e b u t t o n o a v a il .
10

I am – I

u n d e r s t a n d fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t o r s t h a t a s la t e a s la s t n ig h t t h e y w e r e
s t il l tr y i n g to c a l l n u m b e r s f o r h is w i fe b u t n o n e o f w h i c h h a v e b e e n
s u c c e s s fu l . In r e la t io n t o t h e s e a r c h e s th a t h a v e b e e n d o n e o n M r o r
G e n e r a l C h r i s N g c o b o th e r e w e r e a t l e a s t 1 7 n u m b e r s d a t in g b a c k a
few

years

that

w h e r e a b o u ts .

th e y

have

contacted

in

tr y in g

to

e s t a b li s h

his

H e is n o lo n g e r o n th e S A P S s y s t e m a n d s o t h e r e h a s

c e r t a i n l y b e e n n o j o y i n tr y in g t o c o n t a c t – in t r y in g t o tr a c e h i m a n d
t h is s e a r c h h a s b e e n c o n ti n u i n g f o r a b o u t o v e r th r e e w e e k s w h i c h e v e n
s t a r t e d b e fo r e M r R o e l o fs e ’s a ff i d a v i t w a s s ig n e d o ff o n t h e 2 7 t h
A u g u s t . T h e o n ly t h in g I n e e d t o b r i n g t o y o u r a t te n ti o n C h a ir is t h a t
20

t h e y h a v e n o t y e t g o n e o u t t o a n a d d r e s s t h a t t h e y h a v e . T h e r e is n o
c la r i ty, c e r t a i n ty, v e r i fic a ti o n t h a t t h i s a d d r e s s is i n fa c t t h e a d d r e s s o f
G e n e r a l C h r is N g c o b o . S a v e f o r p h y s i c a ll y g o in g o u t t o a n a d d r e s s t h a t
t h e y f o u n d e v e r y o t h e r p o s s i b le s t e p s h a v e b e e n t a k e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i n t h i s r e g a r d o u r s u b m is s i o n s

Page 16 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
a r e a s f o l lo w s :
We accept that the Rule 3.3 was not sent.
W e s u b m i t t h a t R u le 3 .3 i m p r e s s e s a n o b j e c t a n d a p u r p o s e t o p r o t e c t
t h e r i g h ts o f p e r s o n s w h o a r e o r m a y b e i m p l ic a te d b u t h o w e v e r i n
a ffo r d in g s u c h p r o t e c t io n C h a ir w e s u b m i t t h a t t h e w o r k o f th e
c o m m i s s io n m u s t a ls o b e s a f e g u a r d e d a n d s h o u l d n o t b e o v e r l o o k e d .
I t is r e s p e c t f u ll y s u b m i t te d t h a t th is p r o p o s i ti o n i s s u p p o r t e d w h e n o n e
r e a d s R u le 3 . 3 w i t h R u l e 11 . 2 .

A n d R u le 3 . 3 a s C h a ir w o u ld k n o w

r e q u ir e s t h a t w h e r e a – th e e v i d e n c e o f a w i t n e s s i m p li c a t e s o r m a y
10

i m p l ic a t e r e a s o n a b l e n o ti c e n e e d s t o b e p r o v i d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

However…

N o , n o i t is f i n e y o u h a v e t o l d m e w h a t e ff o r ts h a v e

b e e n m a d e t o tr y a n d s e e w h e r e h e c o u l d b e s e r v e d . W e c a n p r o c e e d i f
c o n ta c t i s w i t h h i m h e m a y a p p l y f o r s u c h r e li e f a s m a y a d d r e s s h is
c o n c e r n t h a t h e d i d n o t g e t th e R u le 3 . 3 N o tic e .

B e c a u s e i t w o u ld

a p p e a r th a t e x te n s iv e s t e p s w e r e tr i e d t o t r y a n d l o c a t e h i m f o r
p u r p o s e s o f s e r v i n g th e R u le 3 . 3 N o tic e . Ye s a r e y o u d o n e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A n d t h e n l a s tl y C h a ir w e h a v e

r e c e i v e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a s e a r l y a s t h i s m o r n in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In r e la t i o n t o c e r ta in in d iv i d u a ls w h o
h a s r e q u e s te d th a t t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h is w i t n e s s b e p o s t p o n e d b e c a u s e
t h e y b e li e v e t h a t t h e y r e q u ir e m o r e ti m e in o r d e r t o p r e p a r e f o r th is
h e a r in g to d a y.

H a v in g s a i d th a t th e r e a r e f o u r i n d iv id u a l s w h i c h f o r m

Page 17 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
p a r t o f th e R ic h a r d M d l u l i f a m ily a n d t h a t i n c lu d e s R ic h a r d M d l u l i
h i m s e l f , Ms Vu s iw a n e M d l u l i , B u s i s i w e M d l u l i a n d Th e r e s a Ly o n s .
T h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n t h a t w e r e c e i v e d t h is m o r n i n g r e q u e s t e d
t h a t th e e v i d e n c e b e p o s t p o n e d in r e s p e c t o f t h e m b u t it is o u r
s u b m is s io n C h a ir t h a t t i m e o u s n o ti c e h a s b e e n g iv e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is n o s u b s t a n t iv e a p p li c a t io n ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o n e w h a ts o e v e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

In

fact

the

o th e r

r e q u e s ts

for

p o s tp o n e m e n t o f t h e e v i d e n c e b y o t h e r i n d iv i d u a ls i s a ls o n o t s u p p o r t e d
b y a n y s u b s t a n t iv e a p p l ic a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e n w i t h y o u r l e a v e if I m a y

r e q u e s t t h a t t h e w i tn e s s p l e a s e b e s w o r n in . U n l e s s t h e r e is a n y t h i n g
e ls e y o u w is h m e to a d d r e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

L e g a l r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o f c e r t a i n a ff e c t e d p a r t ie s - I

h a v e n o t p ic k e d u p a n y t h in g th a t M s S e p t e m b e r s a i d in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h
20

y o u m ig h t w is h to s a y a n y t h i n g b u t i f t h e r e is y o u m u s t ju s t i n d ic a te
t h a t th e r e is s o m e t h i n g t o w h ic h y o u w a n t t o r e a c t.

I do not see any

in d i c a t io n . O k a y, a lr ig h t . P l e a s e a d m in is t e r th e o a t h o r a ffi r m a ti o n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : K o b u s D e m e y e r R o e l o fs e .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?

Page 18 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , th e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th in g b u t t h e t r u th ? I f s o p le a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o h e lp m e G o d .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : ( d u ly s w or n , s t a t e s )
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

B e f o r e w e p r o c e e d t h e f il e m a r k e d

E X H I B I T K K 2 . 2 w h ic h h a s a s e a l e d e n v e l o p e a n d w r it t e n s u p p l e m e n t a r y
a ffi d a v i ts a n d a n n e x u r e s o f K o b u s D e m e y e r R o e lo fs e is n o t t o b e m a d e
p u b lic a t th is s ta g e u n ti l I d e c id e o t h e r w is e a n d i s t o b e k e p t s e p a r a t e
fr o m t h e o t h e r fil e s t o m i n i m is e a n y c h a n c e s t h a t u n a u th o r is e d p e r s o n s
m a y h a v e a c c e s s to i t a n d th e n M s S e p t e m b e r th e r e i s th is o th e r f il e
KK2.3 - diagrams.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e a r e d i a g r a m s r e l a t in g to c e r t a i n s tr u c t u r e s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir. In fa c t th e d ia g r a m s h a v e
20

b e e n p r e p a r e d to a s s is t w i t h t h e - t h e f a c il i ta t io n o f p r e s e n t in g th is t h e e v id e n c e o f M r R o e l o fs e a n d i t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Been prepared by

c o n s e n t a n d in s t r u c t i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 19 of 150

Mr R o e lo f s e ’s

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h i c h a l ig n s t o h is e v i d e n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In t h e a ffi d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e fi l e c o n ta in i n g d i a g r a m s w r it t e n E X H I B I T K K 2 . 3

w i ll b e m a r k e d K K - E X H I B I T K K 2 . 3 . D i d w e a d m i t K K 2 . 4 ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: I am not sure.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t t h i n k s o . T h e f i le - l e v e r a r c h fi le c o n ta in i n g
the

r e g u l a to r y

fr a m e w o r k

and

case

law

under

th e

name

of

K o b u s D e m e y e r R o e l o fs e w il l b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T K K 2 . 4 . Ye s .
10

UNKNOWN PERSON: (Inaudible).
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: What happened?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I a m - I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . L e t u s s t a r t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B e f o r e t h e - t h e w i t n e s s g iv e s t h e

e v i d e n c e t h a t h e h a s b e e n b r o u g h t h e r e to - t o i n f o r m t h e C o m m is s i o n
a b o u t t o d a y.

H e h a s in f o r m e d th e le g a l te a m t h a t t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n

t h i n g s h e w o u l d l ik e to p l a c e o n r e c o r d a t t h e o u t s e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r R o e lo fs e .
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I a m …
CHAIRPERSON:

Is M r R o e l o fs e - y o u k n o w t h e p o l ic e h a v e g o t a ll

k in d s o f ti tl e s . Is th e r e a t it l e t h a t I s h o u l d u s e o r … ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

M r R o e l o f s e is f i n e C h a ir.

not …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 20 of 150

I am

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : To o w o r r ie d to a b o u t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o I - I ju s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e b e c a u s e I
d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d a ll o f t h e m .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: I think …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t h in k t e s t i m o n y y o u p r o b a b ly

w o u ld b e a b l e to d i s ti n g u is h b e tw e e n ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s h o p e s o . Ye s . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u w is h to s a y
s o m e t h i n g b e fo r e y o u s t a r t.
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
perturbed.

C h a ir

I w a s j u s t a li t tl e b i t

T h e l a s t c o u p l e o f m o n t h s in p r e p a r i n g f o r t h is a ffi d a v it I

h a v e r e c e iv e d i n c r e a s i n g - i n f o r m a ti o n t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t w h i c h I
c o n s i d e r a s - a s tr y i n g t o i n h ib i t m e fr o m - fr o m t e s t if y i n g a t t h e - a t t h e
Commission.

I h a v e it i n g o o d a u t h o r i ty.

I d o n o t w i s h t o m e n ti o n

t h o s e n a m e s a t t h is p o in t in t i m e b e c a u s e I n e e d t o p r o t e c t th e m a s
w e ll b u t I - a s I s a i d I w a s n o t e x p e c t i n g t h a t.
To m e i t i s a li t tl e b it o f a - t o m e it w a s a li t t le b i t s a d t h a t i t
h a p p e n e d . I t i s n o t a ffe c ti n g m y t e s t i m o n y i n t h e C o m m is s i o n . I m u s t I w i ll s t il l t e s ti fy a n d te s t i fy a s t o w h a t I k n o w. I j u s t w a n t t o p l a c e t h a t
20

o n r e c o r d t h a t - th a t i t h a s h a p p e n e d a n d I a m - I a m a c t u a l ly p e r t u r b e d
by it.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. N o th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u f o r c o m in g t o g iv e

evidence to the Commission and to share what you know in terms of
w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d w h e r e y o u h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g a n d i n v e s ti g a t i o n s
that you have conducted.

I t i s - i t is v e r y u n a c c e p ta b l e w h e n p e o p l e

Page 21 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w h o w a n t t o c o m e a n d a s s i s t t h e n a ti o n b y a s s is t in g t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o
u n d e r s t a n d e v e n ts th a t f a l l w i t h i n i ts t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e a r e t h r e a t e n e d
o r i n ti m i d a t e d .
I t is r e a l ly u n a c c e p ta b l e b e c a u s e i t i s r e a l ly i m p o r ta n t t h a t
t h e C o m m i s s i o n s h o u l d g e t a s fu ll a p i c t u r e a s p o s s i b le o f w h a t h a s
b e e n h a p p e n in g b e c a u s e w i t h o u t g e t t in g a fu ll p i c tu r e it c a n n o t m a k e
p r o p e r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t n e e d t o b e m a d e t o m a k e s u r e th a t
c e r t a i n th i n g s w h ic h m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d i n t h e p a s t d o n o t h a p p e n
a g a in w h ic h i s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t f o r a c o u n tr y.
10

I - t h a n k y o u fo r n o t b e e n d e te r r e d b y t h o s e th r e a ts fr o m
c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e . W e a p p r e c ia t e t h a t v e r y m u c h .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : It i s - i t is a p le a s u r e C h a ir a n d I
a ls o b e l i e v e in t h e C o m m i s s i o n .

I b e l ie v e t h is is w h e r e w e a r e

s u p p o s e d to m a k e t h i n g s r i g h t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s a n d o b v i o u s l y y o u a r e q u i te k n o w le d g e a b l e

in te r ms o f s e c u r i ty is s u e s a n d m e a s u r e s t o d e a l w i t h t h r e a t s a n d s o o n
b u t if y o u th i n k th a t th e r e is a n y t h i n g t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n m a y b e a b l e
t o d o w i th r e g a r d t o t h e th r e a ts to w h ic h y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d p l e a s e s h a r e
t h a t in f o r m a ti o n w i t h th e l e g a l t e a m a n d t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s . S o t h a t w e
20

can do what we can.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I w i ll d o s o i f i t
is n e c e s s a r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M r R o e l o fs e c a n I a s k y o u - i n

B u n d l e K K 2 . 1 w h i c h is t h e m a i n b u n d le c o n ta in i n g y o u r a ffi d a v i t - c a n I

Page 22 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
a s k y o u t o p l e a s e t u r n t o p a g e 4 o f t h a t b u n d le ? D o y o u r e c o g n i s e t h i s
document?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. I t is m y - i t is
m y a ff id a v i t o r t h e f ir s t p a g e o f m y a ff id a v i t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I a s k y o u to th e n t u r n t o p a g e 7 2
p l e a s e ? W h o s e s i g n a t u r e a p p e a r s o n t h is p a g e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t w o u ld

be

the person

that

a d m i n is te r e d th e o a t h C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Correct and if you were to turn to

p a g e 7 1 w h o s e s ig n a tu r e a p p e a r s a t t h e b o tt o m ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s m y s ig n a tu r e C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f y o u g o b a c k to p a g e 7 2 y o u w il l

n o t e th a t t h e r e is a d i ffe r e n c e i n d a t e o f t h e - a t th e to p w h ic h is
m a r k e d 2 9 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 a s c o m p a r e d t o t h e s t a m p w h ic h is d a te d
2 7 A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 . O n w h ic h d a y d i d y o u d e p o s e t o t h i s a ffi d a v it b e f o r e a
Commissioner of Oaths?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I d e p o s e d to th e a ff i d a v i t o n t h e

2 7 t h . I t is - i t i s a m is t a k e i n te r m s o f t h e - o f t h e d a te t h e r e C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. I f I c a n t h e n a s k y o u to t u r n t o
20

p a g e 2 0 o f th is b u n d l e . A t p a r a g r a p h 6 0 y o u b r o u g h t i t t o t h e a t te n ti o n
o f t h e l e g a l t e a m th a t th e r e w a s a n o t h e r d a te ty p o g r a p h ic a l e r r o r.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is correct.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n y o u p l e a s e c l a r i f y i t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

s h o u l d n o t r e a d 2 4 O c t o b e r. It s h o u l d r e a d 2 1 O c t o b e r.

Page 23 of 150

T h e d a te

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And now could I ask you to turn to

E X H I B I T K K 2 . 2 p l e a s e in p a r tic u la r p a g e 2 ?

D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h i s

document?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t is m y
a ffi d a v i t . My s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And whose signature appears on

p a g e 3 o f t h is a ff i d a v i t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t i s - i t is b o t h my s i g n a t u r e a n d

t h e p e r s o n t h a t - th a t d e p o s e d - I m e a n th a t - t h a t c o n fir m e d t h e
10

a ffi d a v i t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And

is

th e r e

a

s i m il a r

date

ty p o g r a p h ic a l e r r o r /
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

It should -

s h o u l d r e a d th e 2 7 t h a n d n o t th e 2 9 t h b e c a u s e I m a d e th is j u s t a f te r t h e
o th e r o n e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i f I c o u ld a s k y o u t h e n tu r n to

p a g e - t u r n b a c k to p a g e 2 o f t h is a ff i d a v i t .

At paragraph 3 you

h i g h l ig h te d a n o t h e r d a te ty p o g r a p h ic a l e r r o r.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

Ye s it s h o u l d - s h o u l d r e a d t h e

2 7 t h C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B e c a u s e th a t is t h e d a te o n w h ic h

y o u d e p o s e d to y o u r a ffi d a v i t i n i t s e l f.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s - t h a t is c o r r e c t , j a .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o s u b j e c t t o th e c o r r e c ti o n s d o y o u
c o n fir m t h a t a ll t h e fa c t s s t a t e d i n b o t h y o u r m a in a ffi d a v it a n d t h e

Page 24 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t a n d w i th i n y o u r p e r s o n a l
k n o w l e d g e u n l e s s i n d ic a t e d o th e r w i s e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f w e c a n t h e n s t a r t o ff w i th E X H I B I T
K K 2 . 2 b e c a u s e i t is in e x tr ic a b ly l in k e d t o y o u r m a i n a ff i d a v i t . W h a t i s
the

purpose

of

you

d e p o s in g

to

the

s u p p l e m e n ta r y

a ff id a v i t

M r R o e l o fs e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir d u r i n g - d u r i n g c o m p il in g t h e
a ffi d a v i t I - I d o w o r k w i t h n a m e s r e l a ti n g t o p e o p l e t h a t w e r e in th e 10

t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d i n th e H M P r o g r a m i n 2 0 11 . A t t h is p o i n t in t i m e I
d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r s o m e o f t h o s e i n d iv i d u a ls a r e s ti ll i n t h e H M
P r o g r a m a r e i n v o l v e d i n p r o j e c ts .
S o t o s i d e - t o e r r o n t h e s i d e o f s a f e t y I d e c i d e d t o - to
a d d r e s s th e m b y - b y a n u m b e r a n d t h e n s u p p ly t h e n a m e t o - t o t h e
C h a ir b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e y a r e c u r r e n tly p r o j e c ts a n d b u s y w i t h
- a n d b u s y w i t h u n d e r c o v e r o p e r a ti o n s a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o p u t t h a t i n to
je o p a r d y. T h a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y I a m d o i n g i t - i t t h is w a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
m a in b u n d l e w h ic h is K K 2 . 1 .

20

If w e c a n t h e n t u r n t o p a g e 4 o f t h e

M r R o e l o f s e i s it c o r r e c t t h a t y o u a r e a

C o l o n e l i n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o li c e S e r v ic e s a n d e m p l o y e d a t t h e
D ir e c t o r a te f o r Pr i o r i ty C r i m e s In v e s ti g a t i o n s i n th e W e s t e r n C a p e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Although I

s p e n d m o s t o f my ti m e c u r r e n t ly u p i n G a u t e n g .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : H o w d id i t c o m e a b o u t t h a t y o u c a m e
t o - t h a t y o u g iv e e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h is C o m m i s s io n ?

Page 25 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

I

was

approached

by

in v e s t i g a t o r s o f t h e - o f th e C o m m i s s i o n a n d t h e y h a v e - th e y in q u i r e d
a b o u t i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t I w a s i n v o l v e d in a n d t h e n t h a t i s h o w I w a s t h a t i s h o w I c a m e a b o u t b e in g h e r e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a r a g r a p h 5 y o u ta lk a b o u t y o u r

career in the SAPS.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is correct.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Before you address your career can

y o u p le a s e c la r i fy w h a t y o u r - y o u r a c a d e m ic q u a l if ic a ti o n s a r e p l e a s e ?
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I h a v e a - a B A D e g r e e a n d a n d m y m a i n s u b je c ts w e r e In t e r n a t i o n a l P o li ti c s a n d P o l i tic a l S c i e n c e .
I a ls o d a b b l e d a l it t le b it w i th t h e l a w. S o t h a t is w h e r e I a m in t e r m s o f
m y - my d e g r e e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I a s k y o u to s p e a k a b i t l o u d e r ?
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t - le t m e j u s t c h e c k .

C a n e v e r y b o d y a t th e b a c k

h e a r c l e a r l y ? N o . O k a y. I t lo o k s l ik e - I t h i n k i f y o u c o u ld r a is e y o u r
v o i c e . M a y b e M s S e p t e m b e r t o o . O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W il l d o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h e n d i d y o u j o i n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n

P o lic e S e r v ic e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I j o i n e d th e p o l ic e i n 1 9 8 6 - i n

January 1986.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a r a g r a p h 5 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u

h a v e a t a b l e o f y o u r c a r e e r a t t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o li c e S e r v i c e .

Page 26 of 150

Can

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
y o u p l e a s e t a k e t h e C h a ir th r o u g h y o u r c a r e e r a t t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n
P o lic e S e r v i c e a n d t h e e x p e r ie n c e t h a t y o u h a v e a c q u ir e d a s a n
in v e s t i g a t o r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair as I said I - I joined the

S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e S e r v ic e i n 1 9 8 6 . I w a s - I w a s a s e c t i o n l e a d e r a t
U n i t 1 9 - P u b li c O r d e r P o l ic in g a t t h e ti m e u p u n ti l 1 9 8 7 . Th e n I w e n t
t o C a p e To w n . I w a s l u c k y e n o u g h t o g e t a tr a n s f e r t h e r e a n d I h a v e
b e e n th e r e s i n c e .

I h a v e w o r k e d w i th t h e - a t th e C a p e To w n P o lic e

S t a ti o n a t th e Ta c tic a l C r i m e Pr e v e n ti o n U n i t a t C a p e To w n P o li c e
10

S t a ti o n .
T h e n I w e n t t o a S h i f t C o m m a n d e r a s - a t R a d i o C o n tr o l
w h ic h i s c o m m o n l y k n o w n a s - a s 1 0 111 a n d th e n b e t w e e n 1 9 9 0 a n d
1995

I was a

Group

Commander

in

I n t e ll ig e n c e

G a t h e r in g

and

C o o r d in a ti o n . I w a s in - I w a s r e c r u i t e d in t o t h e th e n s e c u r i ty b r a n c h in
1 9 9 0 a n d w e w e r e p a r t o f t h e tr a n s f e r o f th e A N C I n te ll i g e n c e i n t o - i n t o
S A P S a n d t h r o u g h t h a t p e r i o d I w a s - I w a s i n v o l v e d i n - i n I n t e ll ig e n c e
G a th e r in g C o m m u n i ty.
I n 1 9 9 5 t o 1 9 9 6 I w e n t t o S e r io u s Vi o le n t C r i m e s w h e r e I d i d
I n f o r m a t io n C o o r d i n a t io n r e g a r d i n g g a n g s .
20

t e r m s o f in v e s t i g a t io n s ta r t e d .

Then 1996 my career in

I w a s f ir s t i n v o lv e d w it h i n v e s ti g a ti o n s

in t o t a x v i o l e n c e . T h e n I w a s i n v o lv e d w i t h i n v e s ti g a ti o n s i n t o r e li g i o u s
e x tr e m is m c o u n t e r te r r o r is m w h ic h i s th e - w h ic h w a s c o m m o n ly k n o w n
a s PA G A D a t t h e t i m e i n C a p e To w n .
I n 2 0 0 2 I jo i n e d t h e D S O - t h e D ir e c t o r a t e f o r Pr io r i ty S p e c ia l D ir e c to r a t e f o r - th e r e a r e s o m a n y a b b r e v i a ti o n s n o w.

Page 27 of 150

The

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
D S O - t h e D i r e c to r a t e f o r S p e c ia l O p e r a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: The - the Scorpions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Sc o r p i o n s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Sc o r p io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
w i t h - a g a in w i t h PA G A D .

D u r i n g t h a t p e r io d I w a s i n v o lv e d

I a ls o w a s - d i d t h e in v e s ti g a t io n i n to t h e

tr a v e l s c a n d a l t h a t w a s r e l a te d t o P a r li a m e n t . Th e n I d i d v a r i o u s L o c a l
10

G o v e r n m e n t c o r r u p t io n c a s e s .

S o I g o t in v o lv e d w it h c o r r u p ti o n a n d

fr a u d i n r o u n d a b o u t 2 0 0 4 .
T h e n I w a s a l s o i n v o lv e d i n t h e - i n t h e F i d e n ti a m a tt e r w h ic h
I i n v e s ti g a te d a n d t h e n i n 2 0 1 0 t h e S c o r p i o n s w e r e d is b a n d e d a n d w e a n d I e l e c te d t o j o i n S A P S a g a i n a n d s i n c e t h e n I h a v e b e e n in t h e
D P C I w h e r e I w a s i n v o lv e d th e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e m a t te r w h ic h I a m
t e s ti fy in g t o d a y a b o u t .
A ls o fr a u d a n d c o r r u p t i o n w i th - w i t h i n S A S S A a s w e l l a s S I TA
and

later

on

we

would

become

i n v o lv e d

in

the

S u p p ly

Chain

M a n a g e m e n t Pr o c e s s e s o f S A P S a n d fr a u d a n d c o r r u p t io n t h a t t a k e s
20

p l a c e th e r e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : F o r g iv e m e b u t I a m e v e n s tr u g g li n g
t o h e a r y o u . C o u l d I a s k y o u t o s p e a k lo u d e r p l e a s e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O k a y. I a m - I a m s o s o r r y. I w il l
s p e a k l o u d e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you.

Page 28 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Must I repeat some of it?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: No, please continue.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O k a y a n d th a t i s w h e r e - a n d t h a t
is my - m y e x p e r i e n c e . I a m c u r r e n t ly o n - a n d I u s e t h e t e r m lo o s e ly. I
am seconded to - to IPID.

I n - I n d e p e n d e n t P o l ic e I n v e s ti g a t iv e

D ir e c t o r a te …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
T h e I n v e s ti g a ti v e D i r e c t o r a te .
10

A n d a g a in s e c o n d e d t o t h e ID .

S o I a m c u r r e n tly w o r k in g w i t h t h e

I n v e s ti g a t iv e D i r e c t o r a t e i n t e r m s o f th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t t h e y a r e t h a t t h e y a r e c o m m i s s io n e d w i th w h ic h i n c lu d e s in v e s t i g a t io n s f r o m t h e
S t a te C a p t u r e C o m m i s s io n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h o d o e s y o u r p o s i ti o n r e p o r t to ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I s t il l r e p o r t to my - m y D ir e c t o r a t e
is s t ill G e n e r a l L e b e y a - L ie u te n a n t - G e n e r a l L e b e y a fr o m t h e D P C I b u t I
d o i n t e r m s o f t h e in v e s ti g a t io n s r e p o r t t o I P I D a s w e ll a s n o w t h e ID
w h ic h i s A d v o c a t e C r o n j e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d is it t h e r e fo r e c o r r e c t t h a t y o u

h a v e m o r e t h a n 2 0 y e a r s o f e x p e r ie n c e a s a n in v e s ti g a t o r ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is it also correct that the evidence

t h a t y o u p r e s e n t b e f o r e t h is C o m m i s s i o n a r i s e s o u t o f y o u r e x p e r i e n c e
a s a n in v e s t i g a t o r s p e c i f ic to p a r tic u la r tr a n s a c ti o n s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. Th a t is p a r t
o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t I d e a l t w i th a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g t h a t

Page 29 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
in v e s t i g a t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

H a v e y o u g iv e n e v i d e n c e a t a n y

o th e r i n q u ir y ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir. I h a v e g i v e n e v id e n c e
before the Mokgoro Commission.

M y e v i d e n c e r e la t e d d ir e c t ly t o t h e

a c ti o n s o f Mr - A d v o c a te M r w e b i a t t h e ti m e a n d to a l e s s e r e x t e n t
A d v o c a t e J i b a b u t m o r e w i th r e s p e c t to A d v o c a t e M r w e b i .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And then for the record the Mokgoro
C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y w h i c h y o u r e f e r t o is c o r r e c t ly s t a te d a s th e
10

in q u ir y i n t e r m s o f S e c t i o n 1 2 ( 6 ) o f th e N a t io n a l Pr o s e c u t in g …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A u th o r it y A c t .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A s s ta t e d i n
p a r a g r a p h 6 o f m y a ff i d a v i t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Before we turn to the purpose of your
a ffi d a v i t o n p a g e 6 I w o u l d a s k y o u t o p le a s e l o o k a t K K 2 . 3 w h ic h is t h e
d i a g r a m s b u n d le a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r t h e f ir s t d i a g r a m . I f I c a n p le a s e a s k
f o r t h e d i a g r a m t o b e p r o je c te d . P a g e 1 . C h a ir y o u w il l r e m e m b e r t h a t
t h is is t h e d i a g r a m t h a t w a s p r e s e n t e d a t t h e o u ts e t o f t h is p a r tic u l a r

20

s tr e a m o f la w e n f o r c e m e n t a n d t h i s h a s b e e n p r e s e n t e d t o t h i s w it n e s s
f o r i d e n t i fic a ti o n a s t o w h ic h d iv is io n s , c lu s te r s o r d e p a r t m e n ts h i s
e v i d e n c e r e la t e s . D o y o u … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I c a n n o t r e c o g n i s e it a n y m o r e b u t i f y o u s a y I - it
w a s p r e s e n te d i t m u s t h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t e d . Ye s , y o u m a y c o n t in u e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir t h r o u g h y o u Mr R o e l o f s e is i t

Page 30 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
c o r r e c t th a t a l l o f t h e b l o c k s o r c ir c le s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a r k e d i n a
c o l o u r a r e th o s e - a r e e it h e r o ff ic e s o r i n s t it u ti o n s o r d e p a r t m e n ts t h a t
y o u r e v i d e n c e r e f e r s to ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And so for the record if we look to

t h e c l u s te r o f p o lic e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u l o o k w h e r e ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : To t h e c l u s t e r o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : P o l ic e ?
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P o l ic e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n t h e f a r l e f t h a n d s id e . Th e - t h e
d e p a r t m e n ts t h a t y o u h a v e h i g h l ig h te d i n a d d it i o n t o t h e o ff ic e s t o
w h ic h

your

evidence

relates

fo r

the

record

I n t e lli g e n c e o r r a t h e r le t m e s ta r t fr o m t h e t o p .

is

li s t e d

as

Crime

Th e C o m m i s s i o n e r o f

t h e S o u t h A f r ic a n P o li c e S e r v ic e , t h e N a ti o n a l H e a d , t h e D e p u t y D e p u ty N a ti o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r s , P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r s a n d t h e n
t h e f o u r d iv is i o n s o f C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e , th e S o u th A f r ic a n P o l ic e
S e r v ic e s , D P C I b e in g th e H a w k s a n d I P I D .
Under

20

SAPS

you

have

p a r tic u la r ly

h i g h l ig h te d

Crime

I n v e s ti g a t i o n S e r v i c e s G e n e r a l D e t e c ti v e s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d u n d e r D P C I y o u h a v e h i g h l ig h t e d
S e r io u s

Commercial

Crime

I n v e s ti g a t i o n s

I n v e s ti g a t i o n s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

Page 31 of 150

and

Serious

Corruption

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t - c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Yo u h a v e a ls o h i g h li g h te d th e O ff ic e
o f t h e M i n is te r o f P o l ic e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f o n e t h e n l o o k s to t h e - th e C lu s te r
o f J u s tic e . Fo r t h e r e c o r d y o u h a v e h i g h li g h te d S t a te A t t o r n e y ’s O ff ic e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty,

t h e O ff ic e o f t h e N D P P, t h e O ff ic e o f t h e D N D P P a n d N P S . I n p a r t ic u l a r
10

t h e S p e c ia li s e d C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e s U n it . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o ll e c ti v e ly

you

have

then

c e n tr a li s e d a n a d d i ti o n a l h i g h l ig h t u n d e r t h e P a r li a m e n t C l u s t e r a n d
t h a t is th e A u d i to r - G e n e r a l ’s O ffi c e a n d t h e P a r li a m e n t a r y O v e r s ig h t b u t
in p a r t ic u l a r t h e J S C o n In t e l li g e n c e a n d P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d la s t ly o n t h e C l u s t e r o f Fi n a n c e
y o u h a v e h i g h li g h te d N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e - a n d t h e A G ’s O ffi c e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o i n h i g h l ig h ti n g t h e s e d i ff e r e n t
d iv is io n s , a s p e c t s , d e p a r t m e n ts a n d o ffi c e s y o u r e v i d e n c e e i t h e r
m e n ti o n s t h e m o r r a i s e s is s u e o r c o n c e r n s w h i c h a r i s e s o u t o f e i t h e r
t h e p o s i t io n s o r th e o ffic e s a s h i g h l ig h t e d . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d i f I m a y
a d d i t - it a l s o in c l u d e s t h e I n s p e c t o r - G e n e r a l o f I n t e l li g e n c e .

Page 32 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y.

T h a n k y o u fo r t h a t a n d s o i f

w e c a n n o w tu r n t o - i f w e c a n n o w t u r n to p a g e 6 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it .
W h a t is th e p u r p o s e o f th e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u p r e s e n t to t h i s
C o m m i s s i o n M r R o e l o fs e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h e p u r p o s e o f m y a ff id a v i t

is t o p la c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n e v id e n c e i n to th e l e g a l a c t iv it i e s o f
s e n i o r a n d h i g h l y p l a c e d o ffi c e r s w i th in C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e w h i c h i s a
d e p a r t m e n t w i th in S o u t h A fr ic a n - t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n P o lic e S e r v i c e . A s
w i ll c o m e - b e c o m e c l e a r e r l a te r o n m y i n it ia l c o n c e r n i n t e r m s o f th is
10

s p e c i f ic a ff id a v i t r e la t e d t o a m u r d e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n th a t I w a s r e q u e s t e d
t o d o w h ic h th e n l e d to t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n w h ic h I a m - w h ic h is c a l l e d w h ic h I c a l l t h e S S A lo o ti n g in v e s ti g a t i o n a n d I a l s o w i s h to m a k e i t
c le a r t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n t h a t I h a v e g o t n o v i e w in t e r m s o f t h e - t h e
g u il t o f in n o c e n c e o f a n y o f t h e p e o p l e t h a t I a m m e n t i o n i n g i n m y
a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e t h a t is th e f u n c ti o n o f a c o u r t o f la w i f a n d w h e n s u c h
e v i d e n c e is p r e s e n t e d a t a tr i a l .
M y e v id e n c e - i n m y e v id e n c e I - I a m t r y in g t o p o i n t - p o i n t
o u t th e s e r i o u s n e s s o f th e a ll e g a t i o n s t h a t w a s m a d e a t t h e ti m e a n d
the

20

lack

and

fa il u r e

of

th e

i n v e s ti g a ti o n

or

a s s is t a n c e

in

the

in v e s t i g a t io n to f i n a lis e t h e s e i n v e s ti g a t i o n s . T h a t is w h a t m y - t h a t is
t h e s e c o n d p a r t o f - o f m y te s ti m o n y o f - i n t e r m s o f w h a t I w a n t t o d e a l
w i t h i n - i n my t e s ti m o n y.
A s I s a i d I a ls o d e a l w i th a n y th i n g t h a t h a m p e r e d t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d - a n d e v e n ts th a t - t h a t fr u s tr a t e d th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n
w h ic h in c l u d e d s e n i o r m e m b e r s o f S A P S a s w e l l a s s e n i o r m e m b e r s -

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
s e n i o r m e m b e r s o f t h e N PA a n d I a m o f t h e v ie w t h a t i n d o in g s o t h e s e
- t h e s e i n d iv id u a l s b e c a m e p a r t o f t h e p r o b l e m in t h a t t h e y w e r e
s u p p o s e d t o d o w h a t i s e x p e c t e d - e x p e c t e d o f t h e m i n te r ms o f t h e ir t h e o ffi c e t h a t t h e y h o l d a n d th e y d id n o t a n d t h e r e f o r e I th i n k th a t t h e y
in m y v i e w th e y - t h e y o b s tr u c t e d t h e c o u r s e o f ju s tic e a n d d e f e a t - a n d
d e f e a t e d th e n t h e - t h e e n d s o f ju s tic e .
A s I s a i d t h e tr a n s a c t io n s I d e a l w it h i n m y a ff id a v i t o r i g i n a te d
o r f a c il it a t e d b y a n o p e r a ti o n a l u n i t w h i c h I c a l l, i t ’s my te r m a n d
o p e r a ti o n u n i t w i t h i n t h e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e t h a t w a s le d b y M a j o r
10

G e n e r a l S o l o m o n L a z a r u s h e w a s th e C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e o f th e
S e c r e t S e r v ic e s a c c o u n t a t th e t i m e a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s h a d t h e fi n a l
fi n a n c i a l a u t h o r i ty i n t e r m s o f h is d e le g a t i o n i n r e s p e c t o f t h e
tr a n s a c ti o n s th a t I a m t e s t i fy in g a b o u t.

H e w a s a l s o in s tr u m e n t a l i n

a p p o i n ti n g c e r t a i n m e m b e r s w i th i n th e o p e r a ti o n a l u n i t th a t a l lo w e d h i m
t o m a n i p u l a te f in a n c ia l tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d t o – fo r h i m s e l f , to b e n e f i t
himself and others.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If you could then just pause there is

it t h e n c o r r e c tl y s t a t e d t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e b a s i c a ll y d e a l s w i t h – to b e
a d d r e s s e d i n t w o p a r ts , t h e fi r s t d e a l s w i t h i n v e s ti g a ti o n s th a t y o u ’v e
20

b e e n i n v o l v e d in a n d t h e s e c o n d r e l a t e s t o i n te r f e r e n c e i n th o s e
in v e s t i g a t io n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t , C h a ir, t h e fir s t

p a r t I d e a l w it h i n my a ff i d a v i t j u s t t o e m p h a s is e t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e
s e r io u s n e s s o f t h e a l le g a t i o n t h a t w a s m a d e , a s I s a i d e a r li e r i t ’s n o t
a b o u t w h e th e r t h e p e o p l e a r e g u i l ty o r n o t it ’s j u s t th e s e r i o u s n e s s a n d

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e fa c t th a t i t n e e d e d f u r th e r i n v e s t i g a t io n a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d
a ft e r w a r d s i n te r m s o f t h e n o n - a s s is ta n c e i n t e r m s o f t h a t in v e s ti g a t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u , h o w w o u l d y o u e x p l a i n

t h e c h a i n o f c o m m a n d w i t h i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, a t t h e ti m e w h e n I g o t

in v o lv e d G e n e r a l M d u li , N a g g i e M d u l i w a s R i c h a r d N a g g i e M d l u l i h e
w a s t h e D iv is i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a n d a s s u c h t h e
h e a d a s – o r C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w it h in S A P S .

The second person I

m e n ti o n e d w h ic h I ’ m fo c u s i n g o n is G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h o w a s t h e C h i e f
10

Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r w i th i n t h e S S A a c c o u n t , t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s Ac c o u n t ,
t h e t h i r d p e r s o n I a m – a l t h o u g h a l e s s e r a m o u n t I a m f o c u s i n g m y is
C o l o n e l H e in e J o h a n n e s B a r n a r d , h e w a s a S e c t io n C o m m a n d e r w i t h i n
t h e s u p p l y c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t u n i t a t C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e a n d h e w a s a
P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r w h ic h I c a ll a s c o m p a n y X a n d i f I c a n c l a r i fy
c o m p a n y X w a s a fr o n t c o m p a n y u s e d b y C I, C r i m e In t e lli g e n c e , i t
f o r m s p a r t o f th e c l a n d e s t in e o p e r a t io n a l s e t- u p o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ,
in o t h e r w o r d s t h e y w o u l d d o f in a n c i a l tr a n s a c t io n s t h r o u g h t h e
c o m p a n y, i n o r d e r t o h id e a g e n t s a n d s o u r c e s t h a t i s t h e r e a s o n w h y i t
is d e a l t w i t h in t h a t m a n n e r.

20

S o I d o n o t t h i n k i t is f a i r o f m e t o

d is c l o s e th e c o m p a n y n a m e a t – b e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t t a k e w h a t I ’ m
t e s ti fy in g a b o u t a n y f u r th e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Is i t th u s c o r r e c t t h a t C o l o n e l

B a r n a r d r e p o r t e d to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w h o in t u r n r e p o r t e d t o G e n e r a l
M d lu li ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t a n d G e n e r a l M d l u l i

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w o u ld i n t u r n r e p o t t o th e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r a t th e t i m e , w h o e v e r
t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r w o u l d h a v e b e e n .
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

And

who

was

the

N a t io n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r o f P o l ic e a t th e ti m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

It was General Bheki Cele.
A n d t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f

p o li c e a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y w h o w a s i t?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

G e n e r a l B h e k i C e le .

O k a y w h a t t i m e a r e w e t a lk i n g a b o u t ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I d o h a v e t h e ti m e fr a m e s

b u t I d o n o t h a v e t h e m i n fr o n t o f m e n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u ’ v e g o t t h e m s o m e w h e r e ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

O k a y b u t f o r t h e ti m e t o w h ic h y o u r e v id e n c e r e l a t e s

in r e la t io n t o t h is a c c o u n t G e n e r a l B h e k i C e le w a s t h e N a t io n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r, is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t .

O r m a y b e f o r p a r t o f t h e ti m e ?

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

I t ’s p a r t o f t h e ti m e C h a ir q u i t e

e x c e s s iv e y e a r s .
CHAIRPERSON:
another

time

O k a y o v e r a l o n g p e r io d s o t h e r e a r e – th e r e i s
when

it

was

somebody

else

who

was

N a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r o r t h e r e o th e r p e o p l e w h o w e r e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s
a t d i ffe r e n t t i m e s t h a t ’s c o v e r e d b y p a r t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e ?

Page 36 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, o r a c t i n g

yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f

p o li c e , i n t u r n t o r e p o r t e d t o w h o m ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e r e p o r ts to t h e M i n is t e r o f

P o lic e a s w e ll a s P a r li a m e n t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And for purposes of your evidence

w h o w a s t h e M in is t e r o f P o lic e a t t h e t i m e ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A t t h e t i m e i t w a s M i n is t e r N a th i

M t h e th w a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

A g a in w e n e e d t o c h e c k t h e a t - t h e t i m e .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

At the time of General Bheki Cele.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h a t th e ti m e o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s m y ti m e fr a m e s t a r ts in 2 0 0 9 ,

s o I’ m n o t t a l k i n g 2 0 0 9 u p u n t il w h e n – I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e n t h e
M i n is t e r w a s g o i n g s o m e w h e r e e ls e j a .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

C h a n g e d , o k a y. W e l l i t’s j u s t th a t i t’s i m p o r ta n t t h a t

– I m e a n y o u a r e s ti ll g o in g to g i v e y o u r e v i d e n c e , y o u d o n ’ t w a n t
s o m e b o d y to c o m p la in t h a t y o u a r e s a y in g t h r o u g h o u t t h e e v e n t s
c o v e r e d b y y o u r e v i d e n c e h e w a s N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r i f , m a y b e i t ’s
o n ly a q u a r t e r o f t h a t t i m e t h a t h e w a s N a t io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r o r
M i n is t e r t h a t ’s w h y i t ’s i m p o r t a n t t o m a k e t h a t c l e a r.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I a g r e e C h a ir, a n d I th i n k w e d e a l t

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w i t h i t d u r i n g t h e a ffi d a v i t a n d s t ip u la t e d t i m e fr a m e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

C h a ir I’ v e b e e n a l e r t e d to t h e fa c t

t h a t i t is 11 h 1 5 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t ’s t a k e t h e te a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e ’l l r e s u m e

at half past eleven.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s it p l e a s e s .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
10

CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr R o e l o fs e c a n

y o u p l e a s e e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f th e f in a n c ia l
d e l e g a ti o n s o f a u t h o r it y w i th in C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th e

fi n a n c i a l a u th o r is a ti o n s w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e l l ig e n c e is t h e fa c t t h a t y o u –
t h a t fr o m a s p e c i fi c r a n k o r p o s i ti o n y o u a r e a ll o w e d t o a p p r o v e c e r t a i n
tr a n s a c ti o n s u p t o a c e r t a i n v a l u e a n d t h e h i g h e r y o u r r a n k g o e s t h e
h i g h e r t h e a p p r o v a l – t h e fi n a n c i a l a p p r o v a l th a t y o u – t h a t y o u a r e
e n t i tl e d t o g i v e .
20

I n t h a t r e g a r d it w o u l d th e n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d

G e n e r a l M d l u l i w h o w o u l d h a v e w it h in C I t h e h i g h e s t a u t h o r it y i n t e r m s
o f t h e a p p r o v a l o f fi n a n c i a l – th e fi n a n c i a l a u t h o r i t ie s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o w it h in t h o s e p o s i t io n s t h e r e

a r e e s c a l a t i n g t h r e s h o ld s o f fi n a n c i a l a u t h o r i t ie s , is t h a t r ig h t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n a s I

s a i d i t w i ll – I t h i n k i t s t a r ts fr o m a – i t s t a r ts fr o m a C a p ta in i f I a m n o t

Page 38 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
m is t a k e n a n d t h e n t h e t h r e s h o l d g e ts h i g h e r a s t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u
h o l d is s e n io r i ty o f t h e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u h o l d a n d d e p e n d in g o n w h e r e
y o u a r e w i t h i n th e – w it h in C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:
Company X.

Yo u m e n ti o n e d t h e c o m p a n y

When Company X transacted on behalf of Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e w h o w a s t h e m a i n r e p r e s e n ta t i v e fo r t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s w h i c h
in v o lv e d C o m p a n y X ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W e l l in t e r m s o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t

C o l o n e l B a r n a r d w o u ld a s s is t a n d r e c o m m e n d p r o c u r e m e n t in r e s p e c t o f
10

w h a t e v e r th e y i d e n ti f ie d t h a t t h e y n e e d a n d t h e n t h e a u th o r i ty t o – t o
a p p r o v e t h o s e – th o s e t r a n s a c t io n s w o u l d l ie w i t h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n
general.

B u t a t t i m e s w h e n i t e x c e e d s h is a u t h o r i ty i t w o u ld g o t o

e i t h e r G e n e r a l M d l u li o r t h e N a t i o n a l C o m m is s i o n e r f o r t h a t m a t t e r if i t
g o e s b e y o n d a c e r t a in – c e r ta i n li m i t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Sorry – and for purposes of your

e v i d e n c e w h a t is th e ti m e fr a m e t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e c o v e r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir p e r s o n m y – th e e v i d e n c e

c o v e r s t h e ti m e fr a m e s i n c e M a r c h 2 0 11 o r s p e c i fi c a ll y 2 3 r d M a r c y 2 0 11
u p u n til t o d a t e i n r e s p e c t o f th e e v e n t s – t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t I h a d
20

d e a lt w i th a n d I a m r e l y i n g o n a ffi d a v i t s s u b m i tt e d b y w i t n e s s e s g i v e n
t o m e d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f t h a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n . A n d e i t h e r b y w i tn e s s e s
a n d a ff id a v i ts I – I m a d e m y s e l f d u r i n g t h a t – d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d . Th e
in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I h a v e o b t a i n e d a s w e l l a s th e e x h ib i ts a s w e ll a s th e
in f o r m a ti o n – th e w i tn e s s s ta t e m e n ts a r e i n m y p o s s e s s i o n a n d i f
n e e d e d ; I w il l m a k e th o s e a v a il a b l e t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n b u t i t is to o

Page 39 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
v o l u m i n o u s f o r m e ju s t t o a d d i t .

As I said when I – when I refer to

s p e c i f ic e v i d e n c e a n d a ff id a v i ts , e x h i b it s o r a n n e x u r e s I a m i n
p o s s e s s i o n o f s u c h d o c u m e n t a ti o n .

U n l e s s a tt a c h e d to m y a ffi d a v i t I

w i ll m a k e t h e d o c u m e n t s a v a il a b l e t o th e c o m m is s i o n o n r e q u e s t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And so it is correct then that some

o f t h e m a t te r s t h a t y o u r e f e r t o b e fo r e t h is c o m m i s s i o n r e l a te s t o
c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n s w h ic h a r e s t ill p e n d in g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELO FSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t is o n e

o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y I c o u l d n o t a tt a c h th e m .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

F o r p u r p o s e s o f y o u r e v i d e n c e th e r e

a r e v a r io u s c o n c e p ts t h a t y o u r e f e r t o a n d s o m e o f t h o s e c o n c e p t s a r e
e l a b o r a t e d u p o n fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t to p a r a g r a p h 2 6 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

F o r t h e b e n e fi t o f y o u e v id e n c e c a n I

a s k y o u t o th e n a d d r e s s s o m e o f t h e s e c o n c e p ts .

Th e fi r s t b e in g o n

p a g e 8 T h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t . B e f o r e y o u d o s o th o u g h p l e a s e
c la r i ty w h a t i s t h e m a n d a te o f C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h e m a n d a te o f C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e is a n d I a m n o w – I a m t a k in g th is fr o m t h e S A P S A n n u a l
20

R e p o r t w h ic h is d a t e d 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 8 .
“ I t is t o m a n a g e c r i m e in t e l li g e n c e a n d a n a ly s e c r i m e
in f o r m a ti o n

and

provide

technical

support

for

in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d c r i m e p r e v e n t io n o p e r a t io n s . ”
T h a t is th e m a n d a t e o f C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e . A n d t h e s t r a t e g ic o b j e c t iv e s
o f c r i m e i n t e lli g e n c e a r e i n t e r a li a th e fo ll o w i n g :

Page 40 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
To g a t h e r c r i m e in t e l li g e n c e i n s u p p o r t o f t h e p r e v e n ti o n c o m b a t t in g o f
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n o f c r i m e .
To c o ll a t e , e v a l u a t e , a n a ly s e , c o o r d i n a t e a n d d is s e m i n a t e in t e l li g e n c e
f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f t e c h n ic a l o p e r a ti o n a l a n d s t r a t e g ic u ti lis a ti o n .
To

supply

in t e l li g e n c e

p r o d u c ts

r e l a t in g

to

N a ti o n a l

S tr a t e g ic

I n t e lli g e n c e t o th e N a t io n a l – t o N a t io n a l I n te ll ig e n c e .
To i n s t it u t e c o u n te r - i n te ll ig e n c e m e a s u r e s w i th i n t h e S o u th A fr ic a n
P o lic e S e r v ic e .
To p r e v e n t a n d fi g h t c r i m e t h r o u g h e n h a n c e i n t e r n a t io n a l c o o p e r a t io n
10

a n d i n n o v a t i o n o n p o l ic e a n d s e c u r i ty m a t t e r s .
S o i n e ff e c t th e i r m a n d a t e r e l a te s t o c r i m e w i t h i n S o u t h A f r ic a – t h e
fi g h ti n g o f c r i m e .

I n – a n d b y d o i n g s o i n a s s is t in g t h e n t h e

in v e s t i g a t iv e a r m o f th e p o li c e s e r v ic e in d o i n g s o .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w o u l d – w o u ld t h e in t e ll i g e n c e g a t h e r i n g f u n c ti o n

o f c r i m e i n te ll ig e n c e i n c lu d e i n fo r m a ti o n i f fo r e x a m p l e i n a c o m m u n i ty
c e r t a i n p e o p l e p l a n t o s t a g e a p r o te s t a n d i n t h e p r o c e s s t h e y w a n t t o
b u r n s o m e g o v e r n m e n t b u i ld i n g s . W o u ld t h a t b e t h e k i n d o f t h i n g w h e r e
c r i m e i n t e l li g e n c e is t h e p a r t o f S A P S t h a t s h o u ld g e t t h a t in f o r m a ti o n
in a d v a n c e , th a t i n te ll i g e n c e i n a d v a n c e ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. In r e s p e c t

o f i n t h e e x a m p l e t h a t w a s m e n ti o n e d n o w i t is e x p e c t e d o f c r i m e
in t e l li g e n c e to h a v e t h e n e c e s s a r y in t e l li g e n c e fo r t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n
P o lic e S e r v ic e s p e c i fic a lly y o u r u n i f o r m p o li c e o r v is i b l e p o l ic i n g t o
m a k e t h e n e c e s s a r y p l a n s a n d a r r a n g e m e n t s to e it h e r p r e v e n t o r t o
m a k e s u r e th a t w h e n t h i s h a p p e n s t h e y a r e in a p o s i ti o n to d e a l w i t h i t .

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
S o i t i s p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f th e c r i m e i n te lli g e n c e t h a t th e y n e e d t o –
n e e d t o g a t h e r fo r S A P S .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t is t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s

Account?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t

is m o n e y t h a t h a s b e e n m a d e a v a i la b le th r o u g h N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d
t h o s e m o n ie s a r e m a d e a v a il a b l e t o C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e , M il i ta r y
I n t e lli g e n c e a s w e ll a s th e N a ti o n a l In t e l l ig e n c e .
10

Al t h o u g h t h e y h a v e

g o t d i ffe r e n t m a n d a t e s b u t i t – i t c o m e s fr o m t h e s a m e s o u r c e .

It

c o m e s fr o m g o v e r n m e n t – i t i s g o v e r n m e n t m o n e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

So

would

a ll f u n d i n g

that is

given

to

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e f o r p u r p o s e s o f c a r r y in g o u t i ts f u n c ti o n s f a ll w i t h i n t h is
account?

S o in o th e r w o r d s it w o u ld b e – i t is th e o n ly a c c o u n t t h a t

C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e u s e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

J a i t – t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir t h a t is

t h e ir s o u r c e o f f u n d i n g . T h e y m i g h t h a v e m o r e th a n o n e a c c o u n t
n u m b e r in t o w h ic h t h e m o n e y h a s b e e n [ i n d is t in c t] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t t h e y fa ll u n d e r t h e s a m e ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e y f a l l u n d e r th e s a m e th a t is

c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o th e fu n c t io n in g o f a l l c r i m e

in t e l li g e n c e g a t h e r i n g a c t iv i t ie s o f t h e S o u th A fr ic a n P o lic e S e r v ic e is
la r g e l y d e p e n d e n t u p o n a r e c r u i t m e n t u t ili s a t io n o f i n f o r m a ti o n – o f

Page 42 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
in f o r m a n ts .

T h a t i s w h a t th e y – t h a t is t h e ir c o r e b u s i n e s s .

SSA

s u p p li e d th e fu n d i n g t o o b t a i n a n d m a in t a in t h e r e c r u i t m e n t u ti li s a t io n
o f i n fo r m a n t s w h ic h i n t u r n s u p p li e s t h e i n f o r m a ti o n to o b t a i n th e a b o v e
s tr a t e g ic o b j e c ti v e s .

S i m p ly p u t S o u t h A fr i c a n – t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s

A c c o u n t is a f in a n c i a l m a n a g e m e n t s y s te m i n t h e S A P S .
a n d u til is e d b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e s t r u c t u r e s .

I t is f u n d i n g

Fo r i n t e r a l ia t h e

p a y m e n t o f a g e n ts , r e n t in g o f s a fe h o u s e s , p u r c h a s i n g o f a s s e ts a n d
t h e c o v e r in g o f c o s ts a n d e x p e n s e s fo r c o v e r t o p e r a ti o n s . S i m il a r ly a s
I s t a te d
10

e a r l ie r

the

S t a te

S e c u r i ty A g e n c y

as

w e ll

as

M i li t a r y

I n t e lli g e n c e o p e r a te i n a c o m p a t ib l e s y s te m a l t h o u g h b e i t w i t h d i ff e r e n t
mandates.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

W h a t e x a c t ly is a s a f e h o u s e Mr

R o e lo fs e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir i t i s – i t is a – a p r e m is e s

id e n t i fi e d b y – b y C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e w h ic h th e y w o u l d u t ili s e fo r
v a r io u s fu n c t io n s . I t c o u l d b e – i t c o u l d b e a b u s i n e s s p r e m i s e s w i t h i n
a b u s in e s s p a r k th a t w il l b e p a r t o f th a t o b j e c t iv e i n t e r m s o f th a t
s p e c i f ic p r o j e c t t h a t t h e y a r e d e a li n g w i t h . I n o th e r w o r d s t h e y w o u ld
n e e d th a t o r it w il l b e a h o u s e w h e r e t h e y w o u l d b e a b le t o s a f e ly
20

d e b r ie f i n f o r m a n ts w it h o u t g o i n g o u t t o t h e p u b l ic .

They can go and

s e e th e m t h e r e . S o t h e r e a r e v a r i o u s r e a s o n s o r v a r io u s u ti li s a t io n o f
s p e c i f ic s a f e h o u s e s a s t o w h y i t is n e e d e d a n d w h y i t is u s e d . I t is n o t
u s e d f o r – i t c a n n o t b e u s e d fo r p r iv a te – f o r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr iv a te p u r p o s e s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Private purposes that is correct

Page 43 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o – s o i t w o u ld b e p r e m is e s o t h e r t h a n n o r m a l

o ffic e s o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e a n t h o s e p r e m is e s w o u l d b e u s e d f o r a n y
p a r t o f th e o p e r a t i o n s o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e w h ic h m a y r e q u ir e s o m e –
w h ic h m a y r e q u ir e s e c r e c y ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d t h a t i s

w h a t m a k e s i t – t h a t is w h a t m a k e s w h a t th e y d o it p l a c e s a s p e c i a l
r e s p o n s i b i li ty o n th e m . B e c a u s e u n d e r t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s i t b e c o m e s
v e r y e a s y t o a b u s e t h e a s s e t s o f t h e s t a te .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o t h e r e is – th e r e i s a s p e c i a l

c o n d i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o c e d u r e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ja on them to – because they are

p u t in a p o s i ti o n o f tr u s t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o – a n d t h a t is w h ic h is l a r g e r

t h a n fo r i n s ta n c e a v i s i b l e p o lic e m a n th a t i s p a r t o f th e v is i b le p o li c i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o b a s ic a ll y if s o m e b o d y w it h in C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e

w h o h a s g o t t h e r i g h t to a u t h o r i ty b e l i e v e s t h a t t h e r e is s o m e b o d y
w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e n e e d s a p l a c e t o c o n d u c t c e r t a i n o p e r a ti o n s
e i t h e r in o ffi c e o r a h o u s e s u b j e c t t o f o l lo w in g c e r ta i n p r o c e d u r e s
m a y b e a h o u s e o r o ffi c e m a y b e i d e n ti f ie d w h ic h w o u l d t h e n b e e i t h e r
p u r c h a s e d o r l e a s e d b y C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e f o r p u r p o s e s o f c a r r y in g o u t
t h o s e o p e r a ti o n s ?

Page 44 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

n o r m a l ly a p r o c e d u r e t h a t t h e y f o ll o w.

T h e r e is

They would have a – a

r e g is t e r e d p r o j e c t . Th e n t h e y w o u ld h a v e c e r ta i n g o a ls a n d o b je c tiv e s
w i t h i n th a t r e g is t e r e d p r o j e c t a n d t h e n i f it n e e d s f o r t h o s e g o a ls a n d
o b j e c ti v e s t o b e a t ta in e d a n d t h e y n e e d t o f o r i n s ta n c e l e a s e a s a f e
h o u s e t h e n t h e y w o u ld d o i t i n t e r m s o f t h a t. S o t h a t – a m e m o r a n d u m
w i ll t h e n a c c o m p a n y s u c h a n a p p l ic a ti o n w h ic h t h e n e i th e r w il l b e e i th e r
a p p r o v e d o r d is a p p r o v e d – o r tu r n e d d o w n a n d th e n b a s e d o n t h a t th e y
w i ll t h e n c o n t i n u e w i t h t h e l e a s e o r n o t , .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Yo u m e n t i o n e d t h a t th e S e c r e t

S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t is u s e d to f u n d th e p u r c h a s i n g o f a s s e t s . W h a t ty p e
o f a s s e t s a r e y o u r e f e r r in g to b y w a y o f e x a m p l e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair I am referring to any asset.

I th in k w i th t h e r i g h t m o t iv a t i o n s t h e y w o u ld p r o b a b l y b e a b le t o b u y a
s u b m a r in e . B u t t h e fa c t o f t h e m a t t e r i s y o u n e e d t o m o t iv a te w h a t y o u
n e e d a n d c e r t a i n s c e n a r i o s w o u l d n e e d s p e c i a l e q u ip m e n t . S o f o r t h e
s a f e h o u s e f o r i n s t a n c e y o u w o u l d n e e d t o – to s u p p l y fu r n i tu r e . F o r a n
o ffic e p a r k – o ff ic e b u i l d i n g y o u w o u ld n e e d t o s u p p ly f u r n i t u r e a s w e l l .
B u t I th i n k t h e b u lk o f t h e – o f t h e m o n i e s i n t e r m s o f th e a s s e t s g o e s
20

t o t h e p u r c h a s e o f v e h ic l e s b e c a u s e th a t i s a v e r y i m p o r t a n t a s p e c t o r
v e r y i m p o r ta n t to o l w it h in t h e ir – w it h in w h a t t h e y d o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t th e

o n ly fi n a n c i a l a c c o u n t o f th e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o lic e S e r v ic e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir th e r e a r e tw o a c c o u n t s

t h a t t h e S o u th A f r i c a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e s u s e . Th e o n e i s n o t o p e n t o –

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t is n o t o p e n t o t h e r e s t o f t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n
P o lic e .

W e h a v e a n o th e r a c c o u n t w h ic h w e c a ll t h e O p e n A c c o u n t .

T h a t a c c o u n t is u ti lis e d f o r n o r m a l d a y t o d a y tr a v e l li n g c o s ts . I f I h a v e
t o t r a v e l to G a u t e n g f o r i n s t a n c e th e y w o u ld p a y m y tr a v e l c o s t a n d my
a c c o m m o d a ti o n u n ti l I h a v e t o g o b a c k . S o t h a t i s w h a t th a t a c c o u n t is
u til is e d f o r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t a n d

the Open Account audited in the same way?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

N o C h a ir i t i s n o t – i t is b o th

a u d it e d b y th e A u d it o r G e n e r a l b u t t h e r e a r e s a f e g u a r d s i n p la c e i n
t e r m s o f th e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t .

The Auditor General has the

r ig h t t o g o a n d h a v e a l o o k a t d o c u m e n t s r e l a ti n g to – t o t h e a c q u is i ti o n
of – of assets.

B u t t h o s e d o c u m e n ta t io n a r e n o r m a l ly c l a s s i fi e d s o

t h e r e is – t h e r e i s a d i ffe r e n t – t h e r e is a ls o a s p e c i a l u n i t w i th in t h e
A G t h a t d e a ls w i th i t .

Th e S e c r e t – th e S o u t h A fr ic a n o r th e O p e n

A c c o u n t i s a u d i t e d t h r o u g h a n o r m a l p r o c e s s li k e a n y o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s i t t h e r e f o r e c o r r e c t t h a t o ff th e

b a c k o f y o u r e v i d e n c e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y p a y s m o n i e s t o t h e S o u t h
A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v i c e s w h ic h h a s t w o a c c o u n ts , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r I a m n o t e x a c tl y s u r e w h e r e

it is p a i d i n to b u t I t h in k t h e r e i s t w o s e p a r a te s t r e a m s o f p a y m e n t . T h e
o n e g o e s in a s p a r t o f th e b u d g e t w h i c h i s t h e o p e n b u d g e t a n d
d is c u s s e d i n P a r li a m e n t I t h in k o n t h e o th e r e n d i n th e P o r t f o l io
C o m m i s s i o n – P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e o f th e S o u th A fr ic a n P o li c e . A n d th e
o th e r o n e is a b u d g e t t h a t w ill b e d is c u s s e d a t P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n

Page 46 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
I n t e lli g e n c e . I th i n k t h a t is t h e c o r r e c t n a m e f o r i t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

W e ll t h e n a t l e a s t i n s o f a r a s th e

S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t a n d t h e O p e n A c c o u n t is c o n c e r n e d b o th o f
t h o s e f u n d s a r e s ta t e fu n d s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t – th a t is c o r r e c t

C h a ir i t i s b o th – i t i s s ta t e fu n d s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d th e f u n d s o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s

A c c o u n t i s t h e n f o c u s s e d t o m e e t t h e m a n d a te o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
At paragraph – on page 9 at

p a r a g r a p h 1 9 y o u o u tl in e t h e r e g u l a to r y fr a m e w o r k w h ic h is a p p l ic a b l e
t o t h e f u n c ti o n i n g o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a n d t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s
A c c o u n t . C h a ir f o r y o u r – j u s t t o h i g h l ig h t to y o u K K 2 . 4 i n c lu d e s t h e
fir s t th r e e p i e c e s o f le g is l a ti o n w h ic h i s t h e S o u th A f r ic a n P o lic e
S e r v ic e s A c t , t h e P u b lic F in a n c e M a n a g e m e n t A c t a n d t h e S e c r e t
S e r v ic e s A c t b u t i t d o e s n o t i n c l u d e th e P o l ic y D ir e c t iv e s a n d
P r o c e d u r e s f o r C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e g a t h e r i n g w h i c h is a c la s s if i e d
d o c u m e n t . T h e n e x t c o n c e p t th a t y o u t a l k a b o u t is t h e c l a s s i fic a ti o n o f
d o c u m e n ts a n d t h e r e y o u d e a l w i t h t h e d i ff e r e n t ty p e s o f c l a s s i fic a ti o n
20

a n d th e p r o c e s s f o r d o i n g s o .

We now at paragraph 20 on page 9 of

y o u r a ff i d a v i t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

W h y a r e d o c u m e n ts c la s s i f ie d ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Ar e y o u a t t h e r i g h t p a g e – a r e y o u o n t h e
r ig h t p a g e ?

Page 47 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I am on page 9.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Paragraph 20 yes.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y p a r a g r a p h 2 0 .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .

W h y a r e d o c u m e n ts c la s s i f ie d ?

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir th e d o c u m e n ts a r e

c la s s if i e d – t h e r e is v a r io u s r e a s o n s b u t o n e o f t h e m o s t i m p o r ta n t
r e a s o n s w o u ld b e th e r e t o – t o h i d e th e i d e n ti t y o f a g e n ts a s w e ll a s
10

in f o r m e r s . N o t t o d iv u lg e t h e – t h e p h y s i c a l a d d r e s s e s o f s a f e h o u s e s
a n d – a n d b u s in e s s p r e m is e s . S o t h o s e w o u l d b e – t h o s e w o u l d b e th e
r e a s o n s w i th in – i t w i ll f a l l w i th in t h a t fr a m e w o r k th a t d o c u m e n ts a r e
c la s s if i e d

within

the

SAPS

e n v ir o n m e n t

or

Crime

I n te ll i g e n c e

e n v ir o n m e n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What document governs

the

c la s s if ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

It i s t h e M in i m u m I n fo r m a ti o n

S e c u r i ty S t a n d a r d s D o c u m e n t w h ic h is c o m m o n ly k n o w n a s M I S S o r t h e
M I S S d o c u m e n t w h ic h w a s a d o p t e d b y I th in k it w a s a d o p te d b y
20

P a r li a m e n t o r t h e c a b i n e t a t s o m e – i n e a r l y 2 0 0 0 ’s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i t is c o r r e c t th a t th is d o c u m e n t

is c l a s s i fi e d a s r e s tr i c t e d b u t i t i s a v a il a b l e o n th e i n t e r n e t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. By v ir t u e o f

R i g h t To K n o w – t h e R i g h t To K n o w C a m p a i g n t h e y h a v e p l a c e d i t o n
t h e in t e r n e t .

Page 48 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a i r t h is d o c u m e n t to o y o u w i ll fi n d

in B u n d l e K K 2 . 4 . Fr o m – a t p a g e 1 0 y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e d i ff e r e n t l e v e ls
o f c l a s s i fi c a t io n . W h a t a r e t h e k e y l e v e ls o f c l a s s i fi c a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair before I – before I get there

I j u s t w a n t t o – t o d r a w t h e a t t e n t i o n o f t h e C h a ir t o p a r a g r a p h 2 2 . T h i s
is a c a v e a t w it h in t h e M I S S d o c u m e n t a n d i t s t a t e s c l e a r l y th a t
c la s s if ic a ti o n m e n t io n e d a b o v e a r e d e s c r i b e d b e l o w a n d t h e r e is a n o te .
“ S e c u r i ty m e a s u r e s a r e n o t in t e n d e d a n d s h o u l d n o t
be
10

a p p li e d

to

cover

up

m a l- a d m in is tr a ti o n ,

c o r r u p ti o n , c r i m i n a l a c ti o n s e tc e te r a o r t o p r o t e c t
in d i v i d u a ls , o ff ic ia ls i n v o lv e d in s u c h c a s e s . ”
S o th a t i s – f o r m e t h a t is r e a l ly i m p o r t a n t n o t e w i t h i n t h a t d o c u m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h y is t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h

i m p o r t a n t t o y o u M r R o e lo fs e fo r p u r p o s e s o f y o u r e v id e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e p u r p o s e o f m y e v id e n c e i s t o

s h o w t h e p r o b l e m s – t h e p r o b l e ms t h a t a r i s e fr o m c la s s if ic a ti o n o r o v e r c la s s if ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n t s a n d th e n th e – th e n o t u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t
y o u c a n n o t u s e c l a s s i fic a ti o n to h id e c r i m in a l i ty. A n d I t h i n k t h a t is –
20

t h a t is t h e p u r p o s e o f – o f th e – o r o n e o f t h e p u r p o s e s o f m y t e s ti m o n y
h e r e t o d a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

I s i t y o u r a s s e r t io n t h a t t h e

c la s s if ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n ts w a s u s e d t o n o t f u r t h e r i n v e s ti g a t i o n s t h a t
y o u h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is m y a s s e r t i o n C h a ir I a m –

Page 49 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w h a t I a m s a y in g is t h a t th e d o c u m e n ts w e r e c la s s if i e d .

The non-

c la s s if ic a ti o n s o f t h o s e d o c u m e n t s a s fa r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d a ll o w e d f o r
t h e n o n - p r o s e c u ti o n o f t h o s e m e m b e r s i n v o l v e d i n t h e s e a l le g e d
tr a n s a c ti o n s . A n d t h e c l a s s i fi c a t io n is u s e d a s a n e x c u s e n o t t o – n o t
t o c o n ti n u e w i th th e – w i th th e – w i t h t h e i r v a r i o u s i n v e s ti g a ti o n s o r t o
h a m p e r t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s .

A n d in m o s t o f t h e s e i n s ta n c e s t h e

in d i v i d u a ls i n v o l v e d a r e t h e o n e s th a t c l a s s i fi e d t h e d o c u m e n ts . S o i t
b e c o m e s v e r y d i ffic u lt t o g e t t h e d o c u m e n ts d e c l a s s i fi e d b e c a u s e
d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n c a n o n ly t a k e p l a c e b y t h e a u th o r o r t h e N a ti o n a l
10

Commissioner or someone delegated by him.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h i ls t y o u h a v e e x p la i n e d w h o

c la s s if i e s d o c u m e n ts w h o i s e n ti t le d to d e c la s s i fy d o c u m e n t s ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir a s I j u s t s a i d it w o u ld b e

t h e a u t h o r o f th a t s p e c i f ic d o c u m e n t w h o c la s s if i e d it in t h e fi r s t p la c e
o r th e N a t io n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t – h o w m a n y l e v e ls o f

c la s s if ic a ti o n a r e th e r e fo r c l a s s i fi c a t io n o f d o c u m e n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
c la s s if ic a ti o n .
20

C h a ir t h e r e a r e f o u r l e v e ls o f

A c c o r d i n g t o t h e M I S S d o c u m e n t w h ic h i s r e s tr i c t e d ,

c o n fi d e n ti a l, s e c r e t a n d t o p s e c r e t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t is th e d i ff e r e n c e s b e tw e e n

t h e s e le v e ls o f c l a s s i fic a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h e r e a r e – t h e r e a r e

v a r io u s d i ff e r e n c e s i t i s s e t o u t i n my a ffi d a v i t . I w il l – I w i ll j u s t a l lu d e
t o t h e e x p la n a ti o n in t h e – i n th e M I S S d o c u m e n t .

Page 50 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
“ A r e s tr ic te d d o c u m e n t a s e x p l a in e d is u s e d w h e n –
w h e n th e c o m p r o m is e o f i n fo r m a ti o n c a n c a u s e
in c o n v e n i e n c e t o a p e r s o n o r i n s ti t u ti o n b u t c a n n o t
h o l d a th r e a t o r a d a m a g e – t h r e a t o f d a m a g e .
However

compromised

of

such

in f o r m a ti o n

can

fr u s tr a te e v e r y d a y a c ti v i ti e s . ”
C o n fi d e n t i a l d e f i n i ti o n a n d t h e n t h e r e is a t e s t t h a t d e a ls w it h t h a t a n d
t h e n th e r e i s a n e x p la n a ti o n o n p a g e 11 .
“ C o n f id e n ti a l
10

is

used

when

c o m p r o m is e

of

in f o r m a ti o n r e s u l ts i n u n d u e d a m a g e t o t h e in t e g r i ty
o f a p e r s o n o r in s ti t u t i o n b u t n o t e n t a ili n g a t h r e a t o r
a

serious

c o m p r o m is e
fr u s tr a te

damage

of

of

i n f o r m a ti o n

every

such
day

serious

functions,

damage.
and

o th e r

lead

to

The
can
an

in c o n v e n i e n c e a n d b r i n g a b o u t w a s ti n g o f f u n d s . T h e
in h i b it i o n o f s y s t e ms , t h e p e r i o d ic a l d i s r u p ti o n o f
a d m i n is tr a t i o n .
delayed

personnel

a d m i n is tr a t i o n ,
20

F o r e x a m p le l o g is t ic a l p r o b l e m s ,
–

fi n a n c i a l

delayed
relapses

personnel

e tc e te r a

th a t

in c o n v e n i e n c e i n s t i tu t io n b u t c a n b e o v e r c o m e . T h e
[i n d is t in c t]
in s t i tu t io n s

and
and

r o u ti n e
or

c o o p e r a t io n

i n d iv i d u a l s

being

between
harmed

or

d e l a y e d b u t n o t b r in g in g fu n c t io n s t o a h a l t . ”
I n r e s p e c t o f t h is s e c r e t c l a s s i fi c a t io n .

T h e e x p l a n a ti o n a s p r o v id e d b y

the MISS document reads as follows:

Page 51 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
“ C a n r e s u l t i n a d i s r u p t io n o f th e p l a n n i n g a n d
f u l fi ll in g o f t a s k s i . e . t h e o b j e c t io n s o f a s ta t e o f
in s t i tu t io n in s u c h a w a y th a t it c a n n o t p r o p e r ly f u l f il
it s n o r m a l f u n c ti o n s a n d c a n d i s r u p t t h e o p e r a ti o n a l
c o o p e r a ti o n b e t w e e n i n s ti t u ti o n s i n s u c h a w a y t h a t i t
t h r e a t e n s th e f u n c t i o n in g o f o n e o r m o r e o f t h e s e
in s t i tu t io n s . ”
A n d th e n To p S e c r e t . T h e e x p la n a ti o n f o r t o p s e c r e t a c c o r d i n g to t h e
MISS document.
10

“The

f u n c ti o n

brought

to

o f s t a te
a

halt

and

by

or

i n s t i tu ti o n

d is c ip li n a r y

being

measures,

s a n c ti o n s , b o y c o t ts o r m a s s a c t i o n . Th e s e v e r in g o f
r e l a ti o n s b e t w e e n s t a te s a n d t h e d e c la r a ti o n o f w a r. ”
S o th e t h r e s h o ld is q u i te h i g h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELO FSE:

W h e n i t c o m e s t o to p s e c r e t a n d

s e c r e t a s to w h y y o u w a n t t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

C la s s i fy th e d o c u m e n t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A t t h e b a c k i f y o u a r e s t il l fi n e y o u c a n s t il l h e a r
y o u d o n o t h a v e t o m a k e a n y i n d ic a ti o n b u t i f y o u d o n o t h e a r g iv e m e
s o m e in d i c a t io n ? I t h i n k t h e y c a n h e a r y o u . O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

To s t a t e t h e o b – w h a t m a y b e

o b v i o u s t h e n th e r e a s c e n d i n g le v e ls o f c l a s s i fic a ti o n ; t h e l o w e s t l e v e l
b e i n g r e s tr ic te d .

Th e l e v e l a b o v e t h a t b e i n g c o n fi d e n t ia l .

Page 52 of 150

T h e le v e l

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
a b o v e th a t b e in g s e c r e t a n d th e l e v e l a b o v e t h a t b e i n g t o p s e c r e t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is t h e s e c u r i t y c le a r a n c e o f a n

in d i v i d u a l i m p o r t a n t o r r e le v a n t a t a l l i n r e l a ti o n to a d o c u m e n t w h i c h
h a s b e e n c l a s s i fi e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir in t e r m s o f th e a u t h o r i t

cannot have any bearing in the sense that a person do now know what
in f o r m a ti o n h e is g o i n g t o r e c e iv e .

In f o r m a ti o n t h a t h e r e c e i v e s –

r e c e i v e d m ig h t b e o f s u c h a s e n s i t iv e n a tu r e t h a t h e h a s to c la s s i f y t h e
10

d o c u m e n t a s t o p s e c r e t b e fo r e d is s e m i n a t i n g t h e d o c u m e n t a n y f u r t h e r.
S o i t d e p e n d s o n th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s it c o r r e c t th a t y o u n e e d a

p a r t ic u l a r le v e l o f s e c u r i ty i n o r d e r t o a c c e s s a p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t
w h ic h h a s b e e n c la s s if i e d a t a p a r t ic u l a r le v e l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. Yo u c a n –

y o u c a n a c c e s s t h e d o c u m e n t w h ic h is s i m i la r t o y o u r – y o u r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r r a n k i n g i n t e r m s o f c o n fi d e n ti a li ty.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Yo u r a c c e s s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r s e c r e c y.
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : C l a s s i fic a ti o n j a .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ja.
T h e l a s t c o n c e p ts t h a t y o u a d d r e s s

is o n p a g e 1 2 a n d y o u t a l k s p e c i fic a lly t o th e r a n k s w i th in t h e p o li c e .
C a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n t o p a g e 7 4 p le a s e w h ic h is a n n e x u r e 1 to y o u r

Page 53 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
a ffi d a v i t ? D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h is d o c u m e n t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I d o C h a ir.

W h a t e x a c tl y is t h is d o c u m e n t ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

This document was a document

t h a t w a s c o m p il e d b y t h e – b y t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n P o lic e S e r v ic e . I t w a s
ju s t p r i o r to t h e c h a n g in g o f r a n k s i n 2 0 1 0 w h ic h – w h ic h c h a n g e d th e –
t h e p r e v i o u s r a n k in g s y s t e m w h ic h w a s m o r e a c iv il ia n r a n k i n g s y s te m
t o a g a in a m il i ta r y r a n k in g s y s t e m .

A n d t h is w a s th e r a n k i n g s y s te m

t h a t w a s a d o p t e d i n A p r il 2 0 1 0 .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n p a r ti c u la r t h e 1 s t A p r il 2 0 1 0 , i s

that correct?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is i t t h e r e f o r e s ti ll c u r r e n t t o t h e

ranks of today?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t i s s ti ll c u r r e n t t o t h e r a n k s o f

t o d a y C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 7 5

please?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I am there.
T h e r e is a d i ff e r e n c e i n m a r k in g s

b e t w e e n c o m m i s s i o n e d o ffic e r s a n d n o n - c o m m is s i o n e d o ffi c e r s w h ic h is
m a r k e d o n t h e li n e o n th e r i g h t h a n d s i d e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

P le a s e e x p l a i n w h a t i s t h e d i ffe r e n c e

b e t w e e n c o m m i s s i o n e d o ffi c e r s a n d n o n - c o m m i s s io n e d o ffi c e r s ?

Page 54 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir t h e s i m p l e d i ff e r e n c e is a

c o m m i s s io n e d o ff ic e r i s a n o ffi c e r w i th i n th e S o u th A f r ic a n P o lic e
S e r v ic e . I n te r m s o f t h e c u r r e n t r a n k i n g s y s t e m w h i c h – I s t a t e d e a r l ie r
it is s ti ll t h e s a m e h o w e v e r i t h a s c h a n g e d b e c a u s e t h e r a n k o f
L i e u t e n a n t t h a t f e l l a w a y a s w e ll t h e r a n k o f M a j o r h a s fe ll a w a y. T h e y
w e r e c o ll a p s e d in t o C a p ta in a n d t o L ie u t e n a n t- C o l o n e l. T h a t h a p p e n e d
n o t t o o lo n g a g o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

B u t i n a n y – b u t in e s s e n c e y o u

w o u ld h a v e a n o n - c o m m i s s io n e d o ffi c e r i s – is p o li c e o ffi c e r s o f th e
r a n k o f Wa r r a n t O ffic e r, S e r g e a n t o r C o n s t a b l e a n d t h e n a b o v e th a t i t
w o u ld b e t h e n a c o m m i s s i o n e d o ff ic e r w h o is e i th e r p a r t o f j u n io r
management, middle management or senior management.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e n f o r t h e r e c o r d t h is

p a r t ic u l a r d o c u m e n t o n th e l e f t h a n d s i d e l is ts t h e p o l ic e r a n k i n t h e
c u r r e n t – o r i t r a t h e r li s t s t h e c u r r e n t p o li c e r a n k a s i t w a s a t t h a t ti m e
a n d th e c o lu m n a l o n g s i d e i t l is ts th e n e w p o lic e r a n k w h ic h w a s s i n c e
a d o p te d o n t h e 1 s t A p r i l 2 0 1 0 , is th a t r i g h t ?

20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o w h o w w o u ld a m e m b e r o f t h e

p o li c e p r o g r e s s fr o m o n e r a n k t o th e n e x t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r th e r e a r e - t h e r e is m o r e

t h a n o n e w a y b u t t h e p o l ic e s tr u c t u r e is - i s - t h e r e is a - th e r e is a
s p e c i f ic p o s t a ll o c a t e d t o a - t o - if I c a n t a k e a n e x a m p l e fo r i n s t a n c e a
p o li c e s t a t i o n . Yo u w il l h a v e 5 0 p o s ts a ll o c a te d t o t h a t p o l ic e s t a ti o n .

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
O n e o f t h o s e p o s ts w o u ld b e th e S t a ti o n C o m m a n d e r. O n e w o u l d b e o n e o f t h o s e p o s ts w o u l d b e t h e H e a d o f Vis i b l e P o li c i n g a n d t h e H e a d
o f D e te c tiv e s a n d s o fo r t h a s y o u g o d o w n .
S o w h e n y o u w a n t t o g e t a p r o m o t i o n a p r o m o ti o n c a n t a k e
p l a c e t h r o u g h th a t p o s t b e in g v a c a te d e i th e r b y - b y d e a t h , b y - b y t h a t
p e r s o n b e in g p r o m o t e d s o m e w h e r e e ls e t h a t p e r s o n l e a v i n g t h e S o u th
A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e . T h e r e a r e v a r i o u s w a y h o w t h a t p o s t c a n o p e n
u p a n d th e n y o u c a n - y o u c a n t h e n a p p ly t o - f o r t h a t p o s t . A p r o c e s s
w i ll t h e n b e f o l lo w e d .
Yo u w i ll b e s h o r tl is te d a n d i f y o u a r e s u c c e s s f u l y o u w il l t h e n

10

b e a p p o i n te d i n t h a t p o s t a n d th e - a n d t h e r u l e is t h a t y o u h a v e t o s ta y
in th a t p o s t f o r a t le a s t tw o y e a r s b e fo r e y o u c a n b e - b e fo r e y o u c a n
a s k f o r a f u r t h e r p r o m o ti o n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o a l o n g - i f o n e lo o k s a g a in a t p a g e
7 5 a l o n g s i d e t h e m id d l e c o l u m n w h ic h i s t h e c u r r e n t p o li c e r a n k th e r e i s
a n o t h e r c o l u m n c a ll e d “ P o s t Ti tl e ” w h e r e y o u h a v e fr o m t h e t o p
N a t io n a l

C o m m is s i o n e r,

D e p u ty

N a ti o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r, D iv is i o n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r, P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d s o fo r t h .

W h a t is t h e

d i ff e r e n c e t h e n b e t w e e n a P o s t Tit l e a n d a R a n k ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, I - t h e d i ff e r e n c e a s fa r a s

I O a m c o n c e r n e d . I a m n o t a n e x p e r t o n t h is b u t t h e P o s t Ti tl e i s j u s t it is th e - i t is h o w y o u w o u ld r e f e r to a s p e c i fi c p o s t r e g a r d l e s s o f t h e
person in that post.

S o t h e N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r w i ll a lw a y s b e

G e n e r a l. D e p u ty N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r is a L ie u te n a n t - G e n e r a l .
Yo u c a n o n l y g e t A c ti n g D e p u t y N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r s i f

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e y a r e n o t D e p u t y N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r s a n d I a m - a n d I a m
t a lk in g u n d e r c o r r e c ti o n t h e r e b u t i t is b a s e d o n t h e s e n i o r it y t h a t y o u
h a v e . Yo u w i ll h a v e - i f y o u lo o k a t th e s tr u c t u r e o f t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n
P o lic e S e r v ic e - y o u w il l h a v e t h e N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o n t o p .
T h e n y o u w o u ld h a v e h is t h r e e - f iv e o r s ix D e p u t y N a ti o n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r s w h o a r e a ll o f t h e - w h o a r e a ll h a v i n g th e r a n k o f
L i e u t e n a n t - L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l s .

T h e n y o u w il l h a v e D iv is io n a l

C o m m i s s i o n e r s i n r e s p e c t o f i f I c a n r e fe r to G e n e r a l M d l u li w h o w a s a
D i v is io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r.
T h e n y o u w il l h a v e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r a n d y o u w i ll

10

h a v e A s s is t a n t C o m m is s i o n e r s o r i t w ill b e C o m p o n e n t H e a d s a n d s o
f o r th .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o i s i t t o b e u n d e r s to o d c o r r e c t ly

t h a t th e p o s t is a - is a n o ff ic e w it h in t h e o r g a n o g r a m s tr u c t u r e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is - th a t i s a s f a r a s I k n o w.
Ye s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e r a n k is s o m e t h i n g t h a t is

p a r t ic u l a r t o t h e i n d iv id u a l w h o o c c u p i e s …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s - t h a t is …
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A p a r t ic u l a r p o s t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s h o w I u n d e r s t a n d i t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y a n d t h e n is i t a ls o c o r r e c t th a t
w h e n - in o r d e r to p r o g r e s s fr o m o n e r a n k t o t h e n e x t w h e n a n a p p l ic a n t
t h e n a p p l ie s f o r a p o s t th a t r e q u i r e s a p a r ti c u l a r r a n k i f t h a t a p p lic a n t
m e e ts th e r e q u ir e m e n t s o f th a t p o s t t h a t in d iv i d u a l a s s u m e s th a t r a n k ?

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s i t p o s s i b l e t o j u m p fr o m o n e r a n k

t o - t o a n o th e r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A r e y o u ta lk in g a b o u t m o r e t h a n

one rank at a time?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .

A p o lo g ie s f o r th a t .

Is i t

p o s s i b le t o p r o g r e s s m o r e t h a n o n e r a n k a t a t i m e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir it is n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e b u t I
see - I have seen it happen before.
10

c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e i t c a n h a p p e n .

I th in k t h e r e is e x c e p ti o n a l

F o r in s t a n c e i f a p e r s o n h a s g o t

s p e c i a l s k il ls . H e h a s s t u d i e d a n d h e n e e d s t o b e a p p o i n t e d w it h in t h e
f o r e n s ic la b o r a t o r y f o r in s ta n c e a n d h e - a n d h e is n o w a - a c h e m is t o r
w h a t e v e r - w h a te v e r t h e - t h e p o s i ti o n m i g h t b e .
T h a t - h e m ig h t h a v e b e e n a S e r g e a n t a n d h e is n o w b e e n
a p p o i n t e d i n a - i n a C a p t a i n ’s p o s i ti o n b e c a u s e o f t h e s k ill s - t h e
s c a r c e s k i ll s t h a t h e - th a t h e h a s o r s h e h a s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Can we then go back to page …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. Yo u h a v e d i ff e r e n t r a n k s b u t w h e n e v e r t h e r e is
a v a c a n c y o n a c e r ta in r a n k t h a t w o u ld b e a d v e r t is e d . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Most of

t h o s e a d v e r t is e m e n t s w o u ld b e i n te r n a l b u t y o u w o u l d a l s o - i f y o u l o o k
a t y o u r p r o v i n c i a l c o m m is s i o n e r s a n d - a n d s o f o r t h y o u w o u l d - y o u
w o u ld g e t e x t e r n a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A d v e r ti s e m e n ts f o r t h o s e b u t m o s t

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
o f i t is in t e r n a l .
CHAIRPERSON:
r e s tr ic ti o n .

B u t w h e r e a p o s t i s a d v e r ti s e d t h e r e w o u l d b e n o

W o u l d th e r e b e t o s a y o n ly p e o p l e w h o f a l l i n to c e r ta in

r a n k s m a y a p p ly. I n o t h e r w o r d s I m a y b e a t r a n k - I m a y b e a t - le t m e
s e e t h e r a n k s h e r e . I m a y b e a t t h e r a n k o f C a p t a in a n d th e n t h e r e is a
p o s i ti o n fo r D ir e c to r - B r i g a d i e r.
I f I th i n k t h a t I h a v e g o t - I m e e t a ll th e r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d I
h a v e g o t w h a t it t a k e s . I m a y a p p l y f o r t h a t p o s i ti o n . Is it n o t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

C h a ir n o t h i n g s t o p s y o u fr o m

a p p ly i n g b u t I d o n o t t h i n k y o u w o u ld q u a l if y in r e s p e c t o f y o u r
a p p lic a ti o n b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e t h e n e c e s s a r y s k il ls a n d th e
n e c e s s a r y - y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e th e n e c e s s a r y s k i ll s t o - to a p p l y f o r
t h a t . S o y o u - y o u w o u ld f a l l o u t i n th e a p p l ic a t i o n p r o c e s s b u t t h e r e is
n o t h i n g s t o p p i n g y o u fr o m a p p ly in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t - th a t - w o u l d th a t r e l a t e t o th e e x p e r ie n c e p a r t
b u t i n te r ms o f t h e f o r m a l - f o r e x a m p l e - fo r m a l e d u c a ti o n a l
q u a li fi c a t io n s I m a y q u a li f y i n t e r m s o f t h a t b u t m a y b e I m i g h t s h o r t f a ll s h o r t o f t h e r e q u is i te e x p e r i e n c e … .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A n d r e q u ir e m e n ts .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t ?

So what I am

tr y i n g t o e s t a b l is h i s w h e t h e r t h e f a c t t h a t I a m a t a c e r ta in r a n k m a y
e x c lu d e m e c o m p le t e l y o r w h e t h e r i t m i g h t n o t e x c lu d e m e c o m p l e t e ly
b u t I a m u n lik e ly to b e s h o r t lis t e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w o u l d b e s o m a n y
o th e r s a b o v e m y r a n k f o r e x a m p le .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair if I can answer it in the

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
f o ll o w i n g m a n n e r. I f y o u - th e o n ly e x c l u s io n t h a t I a m a w a r e o f a t t h is
p o i n t in t i m e i s t h e e x c l u s i o n - t h e t w o y e a r r u l e . I n o t h e r w o r d s i f y o u
h a v e b e e n a p p o i n te d i n a s p e c if ic r a n k y o u c a n n o t a p p ly f o r a - a
p r o m o ti o n w it h in t h a t t w o y e a r - tw o y e a r p e r i o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I n t e r m s o f th e o t h e r s . I f y o u - t h e
d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n a n o n - c o m m i s s io n e d o ffic e r a n d a n o ff ic e r is y o u r
a c a d e m ic q u a li f ic a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

So

if

you

-

if

you

are

a

n o n - c o m m i s s i o n e d o ff ic e r a n d y o u w a n t t o a p p ly f o r a c o m m is s i o n e d
o ffic e r p o s t t h e n y o u w o u l d h a v e to h a v e th e n e c e s s a r y a c a d e m ic
q u a li fi c a t io n s . If y o u - w e ll y o u c a n - th e f a c t o f th e m a t te r is y o u c a n
p u t i n y o u r a p p li c a t io n b u t i n te r m s o f t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts y o u w i ll n o t y o u w il l n o t b e c o n s i d e r e d .
I f y o u a r e c o m m is s i o n e d o ffi c e r a n d y o u a r e a C a p ta i n a n d
y o u w a n t to a p p ly f o r th e G e n e r a l ’s p o s t I t h in k y o u a r e m o s t w e lc o m e
t o d o s o b u t w i t h i n t h e - b u t w i t h i n th e r e q u ir e m e n t s th a t is n e e d e d f o r
t h a t s p e c i f ic p o s t .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o i n - in th e n o r m a l c o u r s e o f

b u s i n e s s t h o s e a p p lic a ti o n s w i ll f a l l - w il l f a l l t o - w i ll fa ll o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w o u ld t h e p o s i t io n t h a t - w o u l d th e p o s i ti o n b e t h a t
t h e n o r m is th a t p e o p l e w o u l d - p e o p l e w h o w o u l d b e a p p o i n te d t o a
c e r t a i n r a n k a r e p e o p l e w h o w e r e o c c u p y i n g t h e r a n k i m m e d i a t e ly b e lo w

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t h a t o n e a s a n o r m b u t th a t s o m e t i m e s it h a p p e n s th a t s o m e b o d y w a s
o c c u p y in g a r a n k th a t is t w o r a n k s b e lo w t h e o n e h e o r s h e is a p p l y i n g
f o r g e ts a p p o i n te d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

We - we

t e r m i t g o i n g t h r o u g h t h e r a n k s . Th a t is t h e t e r m t h a t w e u s e . S o t h a t
is th e n o r m . A s I s a id t h e r e a r e i n s t a n c e s w h e r e th e r e i s e x c e p t i o n a l
c ir c u m s ta n c e s - e x c e p t i o n a l c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e t h e r e is s p e c i a l s k i lls
r e q u ir e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Where that can happen.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o th a t is - t h a t i s in a n u t s h e ll a s
t o h o w I u n d e r s t a n d it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: If I could ask you then to turn back to
p a g e 1 3 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h e r e y o u d o c u m e n t y o u r fr u s tr a ti o n i n
s e c u r in g c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n ts .

20

C a n y o u p le a s e e l a b o r a t e o n t h e

fr u s tr a ti o n s t h a t y o u e n c o u n te r e d a s y o u d o c u m e n t in y o u r a ffi d a v i t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir a s p a r t o f m y i n v e s ti g a ti o n i t
- i t b e c a m e e v i d e n t - e v id e n t th a t t h e c l a s s i fic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n t a ti o n
w a s u t il is e d p r e c is e l y t o c o v e r u p m a l a d m i n is tr a ti o n , c o r r u p t , c r i m i n a l
a c ti o n s a n d / o r t o p r o t e c t in d i v i d u a ls i n v o lv e d in s u c h in s t a n c e s .
E x a c tly w h a t t h e M I S S d o c u m e n t s a y s y o u c a n n o t d o .

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T h e r e f o r e in m y v i e w I t h i n k t h a t m a n y o f th e c l a s s i fi e d
d o c u m e n ts w e r e i n c o r r e c t ly c l a s s i fi e d i n t h a t th e i n f o r m a t io n c o n t a i n e d
in s u c h a d o c u m e n t d id n o t w a r r a n t th e h ig h le v e l o f c la s s if ic a ti o n a n d a n d t h e n s e c o n d ly s i n c e M a y 2 0 1 2 t h a t i s a p e r i o d m o r e t h a n s e v e n
years.

Th e

management of SAPS a nd

C I h a v e f r u s tr a t e d

th e

c la s s if ic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n t s w h ic h i n m y v ie w h a s b e e n t a n t a m o u n t t o
r e fu s i n g t h e c l a s s i fi e d - d e c l a s s if i e d d o c u m e n ts to m e .
T h i s c o n c e r n s b o t h d o c u m e n ts t h a t I h a v e r e q u e s t e d to b e
d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d d o c u m e n t s t h a t is a lr e a d y i n m y p o s s e s s i o n a w a i t in g
10

d e c l a s s i fi c a t io n .

To

place

the

u n d e r m e n ti o n e d

crime

i n t e ll i g e n t

in v e s t i g a t io n i n t o c o n t e x t I w il l d e a l w i th s p e c i fi c in s t a n c e s r e g a r d i n g
m y i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n t o th e S S A l o o ti n g in v e s ti g a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

So before you - you go there.

So what you are

a c t u a ll y s a y i n g i s t h a t y o u h a v e t o - y o u a r e m e a n t t o c o n d u c t c e r t a i n
in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d t h o s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o r s o m e o f t h e m r e l a te s to t h e
S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t a n d t h a t in o r d e r t o c a r r y o u t y o u r f u n c ti o n your mandate to do your job.
Yo u h a v e o v e r th e y e a r s n e e d e d c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t s w h i c h a r e
c la s s if i e d b u t th e m a n a g e m e n t o f b o th S A P S a n d C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e
20

h a v e fr u s tr a t e d y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s b y r e f u s in g t o d e c l a s s if y d o c u m e n ts
w h ic h y o u n e e d f o r y o u r in v e s ti g a t io n s . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t h a s h a p p e n e d o v e r s e v e n y e a r s I th in k y o u
say?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. It h a p p e n e d

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
o v e r q u it e a l o n g ti m e a n d v a r i o u s r o le p l a y e r s w it h in t h a t p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: When - when senior management of SAPS and Crime
I n t e lli g e n t fr u s tr a te s u c h i n v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t a r e b e i n g c a r r ie d o u t b y
s o m e b o d y w i t h i n S A P S w h a t r e m e d ie s h a v e y o u g o t ?

What have you

h a d t o d o o r a r e y o u j u s t s t u c k b e c a u s e t h e y - t h e y a r e r e f u s in g ?

Is

t h e r e a d o o r o n w h i c h y o u - y o u a r e a l lo w e d t o g o a n d k n o c k a n d s a y I
a m b e i n g fr u s tr a te d h e r e b y p e o p l e w h o s h o u l d a s s is t m e w i t h th is
in v e s t i g a t io n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r i f y o u w il l a ll o w I t h i n k t h a t
10

w i ll c o m e o u t a t - a t a l a t e r o f my o r th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e s e c o n d p a r t o f my a ffi d a v it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

In terms of what - what I have

done …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I n o r d e r to g e t t h i s d o c u m e n t a ti o n
d e c l a s s i fi e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A s l o n g a s y o u a d d r e s s it a t s o m e s ta g e .
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is the second part of - of my of my evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e p a r t o f w h a t I w i ll b e lo o k i n g a t is w h a t i t i s
t h a t t h e C o m m is s i o n m i g h t b e a b l e t o d o t o tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
a r e n o t fr u s tr a t e d in y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . S o - s o - b u t w e w il l d e a l w i t h
it w h e n y o u c o m e t o th a t p a r t .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

I a p p r e c i a te it .

I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e i t - p u t i t - p u t it o n r e c o r d I a m n o t h e r e - I a m n o t
a t t h e C o m m i s s io n t o a s k t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o - t o h e l p m e d e c l a s s i fy th e
d o c u m e n ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I a m h e r e t o e x p la in w h y i t d i d n o t
h a p p e n a n d t h a t s o m e t h i n g n e e d s t o b e d e a l t - s o m e th i n g n e e d s t o b e
10

d o n e t o r e c t if y t h a t s p e c i fi c s i t u a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o I a m - I a m n o t n e c e s s a r il y t a lk in g a b o u t
t h e d e c l a s s i f ic a t i o n .

I m e a n o b v io u s ly i n i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h e ty p e s o f

in v e s t i g a t io n s y o u a r e d o i n g i s v e r y i m p o r ta n t a n d if th e y a r e b e i n g
fr u s tr a te d t h a t s h o u l d b e a c o n c e r n a n d t o t h e e x t e n t th a t th e
in v e s t i g a t io n s m a y r e la t e to m a t t e r s o f c o r r u p t io n …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a la d m i n i s t r a t io n .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e w h o le c o u n tr y h a s a n i n te r e s t in k n o w i n g w h e t h e r
20

t h e r e a r e v a li d r e a s o n s fo r c e r ta i n o ff ic ia l s n o t g iv i n g y o u c o o p e r a t io n .
S o th a t - th a t i s t h e a n g l e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s - a s w e m o v e i n t o t h e d i ff e r e n t

ty p e s o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n i t m a y b e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
i m p o r t a n t f o r y o u t o fir s t c la r i fy h o w in v e s t ig a to r s in D P C I a r e a s s ig n e d
to matters.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir n o r m a ll y w h a t h a p p e n e d i s

that and I am not …
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t t o m e n ti o n a g a i n D P C I b e i n g w h a t i s n o r m a lly

called the Hawks?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e H a w k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

N o r m a l ly w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n o n -

a n d I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t th e p r o v i n c i a l - o n t h e p r o v i n c i a l l e v e l n o w. Yo u
h a v e t h r e e - t h r e e s t r e a m s o f i n v e s ti g a ti o n s o r t h r e e - t h r e e u n it s w h i c h
is S e r i o u s O r g a n is e d C r i m e , S e r i o u s F in a n c i a l C r i m e s a n d C o r r u p t io n
a n d a s p e c i fi c d o c k e t i n v e s t ig a ti o n w o u l d c o m e i n to t h e u n i t .
I t w i ll b e t h e n d e c i d e d d o e s it fa ll u n d e r o r g a n is e d c r i m e ,
d o e s i t fa ll fi n a n c i a l - S e r i o u s Fi n a n c i a l C r i m e a n d th e n b a s e d o n t h a t a
d e c is i o n w i ll b e t a k e n t o g iv e t o a s p e c if ic u n i t w it h in t h e D P C I o r
w i t h i n t h e H a w k s a n d th e n t h a t C o m m a n d e r o f th a t s p e c i fi c u n i t w o u l d
then

decide

In v e s t i g a t o r X

w il l

receive

t h is

i n v e s ti g a ti o n

and

I n v e s ti g a t o r Y w i ll r e c e i v e t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n .
20

I t is t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e - t h e w o r k is a l lo c a t e d e q u a lly t o
m e m b e r s a n d t o a ll o c a t e i t t o m e m b e r s t h a t i f th e r e is a c e r t a i n s k i ll
t h a t i s r e q u ir e d th a t t h a t m e m b e r g e ts t h a t s p e c i f ic i n v e s t ig a ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What

then

happened

on

2 1 M a r c h 2 0 11 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir

Page 65 of 150

I

was

-

I

was

called

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
L i e u t e n a n t - c u r r e n tl y L i e u t e n a n t- G e n e r a l M a t a k a ta . S h e w a s t h e n t h e
M a jo r - G e n e r a l M a t a k a ta .

She was the Head of the Hawks in the

W e s t e r n C a p e . S h e r e q u e s te d m e t o a t te n d a m e e ti n g w h i c h I d i d . In
t h e m e e t i n g th e r e w e r e o t h e r i n d i v i d u a ls w h ic h i n c l u d e d h e r s e l f,
M a jo r - G e n e r a l S i b i y a a n d M a j o r - L i e u te n a n t- G e n e r a l P e tr o s w h o w a s
t h e P r o v i n c ia l C o m m i s s i o n e r a t t h e ti m e i n G a u t e n g a n d a - a n d
C o l o n e l Vi lj o e n .
We - we were then requested by Sibiya - General Sibiya to t o t a k e o v e r a n in v e s ti g a t io n th a t w a s c o n d u c t e d b y th e D P C I in
10

Gauteng.

N o w v a r i o u s r e a s o n s w e r e g i v e n to u s a s t o w h y it w a s

n e e d e d t o b e d o n e . O n e o f th e m t h a t th e in v e s t i g a t o r s w e r e th e - t h e
c u r r e n t i n v e s t ig a t o r s - t h o s e in v e s t i g a t o r s w e r e in t i mi d a te d a n d t h e
s e c o n d o n e w a s t h a t th e y n e e d e d s o m e o n e f r o m t h e o u t s i d e w i th - to
lo o k a t t h i s o b j e c t iv e l y.
T h a t w a s th e r e a s o n s t h a t w a s a d v a n c e d t o m y s e l f a n d
G e n e r a l M a t a k a t a t h e n t o l d u s t o c o n ti n u e w i t h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n . T h a t
is h o w I g o t o n t o t h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d i t is w i th i n G e n e r a l M a t a k a t a ’s
r ig h t a n d m a n d a te t o a p p o i n t m e t o i n v e s t ig a t e a n y m a t te r a s t h e
P r o v i n c ia l H e a d o f t h e D P C I w it h in - w i t h i n th e W e s t - W e s t e r n C a p e .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And

w h a t in v e s ti g a t i o n

are

you

s p e c i f ic a l ly r e fe r r i n g t o h e r e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I a m r e fe r r i n g t o w h a t w e a r e

c a l li n g th e M d l u li i n v e s ti g a ti o n w h i c h is a m u r d e r - w h ic h w a s a m u r d e r
in v e s t i g a t io n . F o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f th e C o m m i s s io n I a m r e f e r r in g to i t
a s th e Vo s lo o r u s c a s e b e c a u s e th a t i s w h e r e i t h a p p e n e d .

Page 66 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o y o u w e r e c a l l e d i n t o t h is m e e ti n g .
Yo u w e r e a s s i g n e d t o t h is c a s e a n d w h o w a s t h e l e a d i n v e s t ig a to r f o r
t h is in v e s t i g a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir b y v ir t u e o f m y r a n k I

b e c a m e t h e l e a d i n v e s t i g a t o r o f - o f t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

As I was the

s e n i o r - I w a s th e s e n i o r in r e s p e c t o f - I w a s C o lo n e l Vi lj o e n ’s s e n i o r
at the time.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t h a p p e n e d o n 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 11 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Chair on 31 March we made an

a r r a n g e m e n t w i th G e n e r a l M d l u li t o h a n d h i m s e l f o v e r a t t h e B o k s b u r g
M a g i s tr a t e ’s C o u r t w h ic h h e t h e n d i d a n d h e w a s th e n p l a c e d o n t h e
c o u r t r o ll a n d h e w a s d e t a i n e d a t th a t p o in t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t w e r e t h e c h a r g e s a g a in s t

him?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A t t h e - a t t h e t i m e th e c h a r g e s

w e r e t h e f o l lo w in g : i t i s a c h a r g e o f m u r d e r a n d a t t e m p te d m u r d e r a n d
o th e r c h a r g e s r e l a ti n g f o r - r e la t in g o r r a n g in g fr o m i n t i m i d a t io n ,
k id n a p p in g , a s s a u l t a n d d e f e a t in g th e e n d s o f ju s tic e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

What

then

tr a n s p i r e d

on

7 A p r i l 2 0 11 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir o n 7 A p r il t h a t w a s a f te r w e
c o n d u c t e d a b a il a p p li c a t io n . G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d t h r e e o t h e r s w h o w e r e
h is c o a c c u s e d a t t h e ti m e w e r e g r a n t e d b a il a n d t h e c a s e w a s
p o s tp o n e d . I t h i n k , j a u n t il 3 0 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 f o r f u r th e r in v e s ti g a t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is

it

Page 67 of 150

correct

that

it

was

also

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
p o s tp o n e d fo r t h e a ll o c a ti o n o f a H ig h C o u r t d a t e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Ja. In respect of 30 September a
High Court date would have been allocated for this matter as well as
t h e in d i c t m e n t w o u l d h a v e b e e n - w o u l d h a v e b e e n g iv e n t o th e a c c u s e d
at the time.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is i t a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t i t w a s o n

1 4 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 t h a t t h e m a t t e r w a s s e t d o w n fo r tr ia l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t

is

correct

C h a ir.

On

3 0 D e c e m b e r th e m a t t e r w a s s e t d o w n fo r - f o r tr ia l o n 1 4 S e p t e m b e r 10

1 4 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 a t G a u t e n g S o u th H i g h C o u r t i n J o h a n n e s b u r g .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D i d th e t r ia l p r o c e e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o C h a ir. T h e tr i a l - t r i a l d i d n o t
p r o c e e d r e g a r d l e s s o f - r e g a r d le s s o f t h e f a c t th a t t h e c h a r g e s h e e t w a s
d r a w n u p a n d th e i n d ic t m e n t w a s g i v e n . T h e m a t t e r w a s t h e n r e fe r r e d
for a - for an inquest …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: On …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A t t h e ti m e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n w h o s e i n s tr u c ti o n w a s i t r e f e r r e d
for an inquest?

20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir fr o m w h a t I k n o w i t w a s a n

in s t r u c t i o n o f t h e D P P o f G a u t e n g S o u th w h ic h i s A d v o c a t e C h a u k e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w a s th a t d e c is io n c h a l le n g e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t

is

correct

C h a ir.

The

d e c is i o n w a s c h a l l e n g e d b y Fr e e d o m U n d e r L a w in - i n fir s t t h e H i g h
C o u r t a n d th e n i t w a s c o n f ir m e d i n t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l .

Page 68 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir b o th o f th o s e ju d g m e n t s h a v e

b e e n i n c lu d e d in B u n d l e K K 2 . 4 .
CHAIRPERSON: I - I see the statement does not say much about what
t h e y s a y. C o u l d y o u c o v e r t h a t j u s t b r i e fl y ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In r e la t i o n t o t h e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : To w h a t th e j u d g m e n t s a id w h a t - w h a t w a s t h e b a s is
f o r c h a l le n g i n g a n d w h a t w a s th e b a s is f o r t h e d e c i s i o n . J u s t s o th a t
t h e r e i s p r o p e r c o n t e x t o r is - i s t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u m i g h t - m i g h t b e
m o r e c o n v e n i e n t to d e a l w i th la t e r ?
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I m a y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr i g h t . J u s t m a y b e w h e n w e c o m e b a c k fr o m

lu n c h .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W il l d o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

F o l lo w i n g

the

d e c is io n

of

the

S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l w h a t f o l lo w in g s t e p s w e r e ta k e n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. Yo u a r e t a lk in g a b o u t th e d e c is i o n o f t h e
S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER: Hm.
20

CHAIRPERSON: There was an appeal you mean?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e f ir s t j u d g m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s - l e t u s s t a r t fr o m t h e r e .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.

Page 69 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e - th e ju d g m e n t o f t h e H i g h C o u r t in P r e to r i a w a s
a judgment of Judge Murphy …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e s e t a s i d e t h e d e c i s i o n o f th e D P P.

Is that

correct - Mr Chauke?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: And there was an appeal against that judgment …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And the appeal went to the Supreme Court of Appeal
10

a n d y o u c a n j u s t - f o r m a ll y j u s t s a y w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h e - a t t h e
appeal.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
e ffe c tiv e l y

endorsed

the

The

ju d g m e n t

Supreme

Court

of

Learned

Yo u r

of

Appeal
Br o t h e r

J u d g e M u r p h y a n d i n t h e r e s u l t th e c h a r g e s w e r e r e in s t a t e d a g a in s t
Richard Mdluli.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , o k a y.

That is fine.

Then when we come back

fr o m lu n c h i f y o u c a n ju s t t o u c h o n j u s t w h a t e v e r m a y b e i m p o r t a n t i n
r e l a ti o n t o th o s e w i t h o u t n e c e s s a r i ly th r o u g h t h e w i t n e s s . J u s t to - s o
t h a t t h e c o n t e x t is k n o w n a n d th o s e li s t e n in g c a n a p p r e c i a t e w h a t
20

happened.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t is

th e

importance

of

th e

Vo s lo o r u s c a s e to t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e in v e s ti g a ti o n s t h a t y o u le d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a t t h e ti m e w e d i d n o t

Page 70 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
c o n c e n tr a t e o n e i t h e r C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e o r t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t .
O u r f o c u s o n t h e - o n th e Vo s l o o r u s c a s e i t s e l f b u t d u r i n g t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n o f th e Vo s lo o r u s c a s e th e r e w e r e m e m b e r s o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e t h a t c a m e t o m e a n d t o C o l o n e l Vi l jo e n a n d t h e y - t h e y
g a v e u s c e r ta i n i n fo r m a ti o n w h i c h l e d u s t o b e li e v e th a t t h e r e a r e - t h a t
t h e r e w e r e a c ts o f c r i m in a li ty b e i n g c o m m i t te d w i t h i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e
e s p e c i a l ly w i t h f u n d s fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e Ac c o u n t.
A l th o u g h w e r e c e iv e d t h e i n fo r m a ti o n q u i t e e a r ly o r fa ir l y
e a r ly i n to th e Vo s l o o r u s c a s e w e d i d n o t h a v e ti m e a t th e t i m e t o f o l lo w
10

u p o n - o n a ll t h e a ll e g a t io n s t h a t w a s m a d e b e c a u s e w e w e r e
c o n c e n tr a ti n g o n t h e Vo s l o o r u s c a s e to fi n a li s e th a t b u t a s t h e w o r k a s w e fi n a li s e d t h e w o r k i n to t h e Vo s lo o r u s c a s e w e w e r e a b l e t o - t o
s p e n d m o r e ti m e w it h t h e in f o r m a t io n g iv e n t o u s b y o t h e r m e m b e r s o f
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e .
T h e s e c o n d th in g t h a t h a p p e n e d a n d I t h i n k t h a t i s p r o b a b l y
t h e o n e th a t o p e n e d i t u p is t h e f a c t t h a t w e w e r e - a s p a r t o f t h e
Vo s lo o r u s m a t t e r w e d id a s e a r c h a n d s e i z u r e a t th e h o m e o f
G e n e r a l M d l u l i i n - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r th e e x a c t d a t e n o w - b u t i t w o u l d
h a v e b e e n in - ju s t e it h e r e a r ly A p r il o r la t e A p r i l o r e a r l y M a y b u t I

20

t h i n k i t i s - i t i s i n - i t is in A p r il . D u r i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h - w h ic h y e a r ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y e a r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

2 0 - s o r r y.

a b o u t 2 0 11 n o w.

Page 71 of 150

I am - I am talking

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
CHAIRPERSON: 20?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : 2 0 11 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t . I f t h e r e i s s o m e t h i n g th a t w i ll r e fr e s h

your memory you can have a look.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O k a y. I w il l d o s o …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir.

I ju s t w a n t t o s e e i f I c a n

get that date.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I w il l - I w il l h a v e a l o o k f o r t h e d a t e
f o r t h e l if e o f m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I c a n n o t r e c a l l th a t o n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : O k a y. I w il l c o m e b a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir I w il l c o m e b a c k a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: And share the date with you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : D u r in g t h e s e a r c h a n d s e i z u r e w e
- w e w e r e a b le t o f in d o r w e f o u n d t w o v e h ic l e s o n th e p r e m is e s o f
G e n e r a l M d l u l i . T h o s e - t h e tw o v e h i c l e s - t h e t w o v e h ic le s I t h in k t h e
o n e w a s a ML M e r c e d e s B e n z a n d t h e o t h e r o n e w a s a - a B M W. A 3

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
S e r ie s B M W.
I n s i d e t h e 3 S e r i e s W - B M W w e f o u n d a n i n v o ic e r e la t in g t o
t h e a c q u is i ti o n o f t h a t s p e c i fic 3 S e r i e s B M W a n d a t th e b o t to m o f t h a t
in v o ic e t h e r e w a s a - t h e r e w a s a n o t e s t a t i n g th a t a s p e c i fic v e h ic l e
h a s b e e n tr a d e d i n , in l i e u o f th e v e h ic l e t h a t w e h a v e n o w b e fo r e u s
a n d w h e n w e f o l l o w e d u p o n t h a t w e e s t a b li s h e d t h a t t h a t v e h i c l e
a c t u a ll y b e l o n g e d - i t i s a p r i v a t e v e h ic le o f G e n e r a l M d lu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e t h a t h a d b e e n tr a d e d i n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

T h e o n e t h a t h a d b e e n tr a d e d i n ,

yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e d e ta ils o f t h e v e h ic l e w a s t h e
o n e th a t w a s tr a d e d in w h ic h i s a t th e b o t t o m o f t h a t s p e c i fic in v o ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

H m , b u t t h e v e h i c l e th a t - th e t w o v e h i c l e s t h a t y o u

f o u n d o n h is p r e m is e s w e r e C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e v e h ic le s o r n o t r e a l ly ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

They

were

Crime

I n t e l li g e n c e

v e h ic l e s b o u g h t b y C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e b y t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

S o i t w a s f o r p u r p o s e s o f a g e n ts

a n d - a n d i n fo r m a n t s t o b e u til is e d i n t h e ir c a p a c i ty a s a g e n t s a n d
in f o r m e r s .

Fo ll o w i n g u p o n t h a t w e w e r e a b l e t o e s ta b lis h th e - t h e

d e a le r s h i p t h a t w a s i n v o l v e d i n t h e tr a n s a c ti o n .

The dealership was

id e n t i fi e d a s L o u i e H a y e s i n P r e t o r ia .
W h e n w e a p p r o a c h e d t h e d e a le r s h i p th e y a s s i s t e d u s a n d
t h e y - a n d t h e y c o o p e r a t e d w i t h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

Page 73 of 150

They gave us the

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
v e h ic l e fi le s a n d t h e n p a r t o f t h o s e v e h ic l e fi le s w e fo u n d i n t h e
tr a n s a c ti o n a n d t h e y e x p la i n e d to u s e x a c tl y h o w t h e tr a n s a c t io n
worked and …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s i n c e y o u a r e a d d r e s s in g t h i s

a s p e c t n o w, p l e a s e p r o c e e d t o e x p la i n t o t h e C h a ir h o w th e tr a n s a c t i o n
worked?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
h a p p e n e d a s f o l lo w s .

T h e tr a n s a c ti o n a t L e e u H u is

T h e v e h ic l e th a t – t h e r e w e r e t w o v e h ic le s –

C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e c a m e to L e e u H u is a n d a s k e d th e m fo r a v e h i c l e , a
10

B M W a n d th e n th e y a l s o a s k e d fo r t h e m t o p u t o n th e fl o o r o n th e ir a t
t h e d e a l e r s h ip th e p r iv a t e v e h i c l e o f G e n e r a l M d lu li to b e s o l d p r iv a te ly
o u t o f h a n d b e c a u s e h e w a s s t il l – a n a m o u n t , a n d I’ m t a l k i n g u n d e r
c o r r e c t io n o f R 8 0 0 0 0 m o r e o r l e s s t h e r e o u ts t a n d i n g o n t h i s h ir e
p u r c h a s e o f th a t v e h i c l e , s o t h e y n e e d e d t o c o v e r t h a t a m o u n t fo r h i m
t o g e t r i d o f t h a t s p e c i f ic v e h ic l e . T h e n th e a r r a n g e m e n t w a s m a d e t h a t
t h e p r o f i t t h a t o r th e d is c o u n t t h a t w o u ld g o t o t h e o n e B M W w o u l d t h e n
b e tr a n s f e r r e d t h e – t h e o u ts t a n d in g a m o u n t i n te r ms o f th e b a l a n c e o f
t h e h i r e p u r c h a s e o f t h a t s p e c i fic v e h ic l e , t h e p r iv a te v e h ic l e o f G e n e r a l
M d lu li , h o w e v e r, t h a t w a s n o t e n o u g h I th in k t h a t a m o u n t t o a b o u t

20

R 4 0 0 0 0 s o w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r t h a t is , a n o t h e r c o m p a n y b y t h e n a m e
o f – o r d e a l e r s h i p b y t h e n a m e o f A t l a n ti s M o t o r s , w h i c h w e w il l d e a l
w i t h la t e r, p r o v id e d R 5 0 0 0 0 to L e e u H u i s w h i c h t h e n a ll o w e d t h e m to
fi n a l is e o r t o s e t t le t h e d e b t o n t h e v e h i c l e , t h e o u ts ta n d i n g a m o u n t o n
t h e v e h i c l e , t h e p r iv a te v e h i c l e o f G e n e r a l M d lu li .
H o w e v e r, t h e R 4 0 0 0 0 h a d t o b e p a id – t h e R 5 0 0 0 0 h a d to b e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
p a i d b a c k s o i n – i n o r d e r t o d o t h a t C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e s a id th e y w i ll
b u y tw o v e h i c l e s , t h e o t h e r v e h ic le , t h e s e c o n d v e h ic l e w a s t h e n b o u g h t
f o r – w a s th e n , t h e v e h ic le w a s n ’ t i m m e d i a te ly a v a i la b l e a n d w a s o n l y
d e li v e r e d la t e r o n s o t h e d is c o u n t t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o g o t o t h a t
v e h ic l e w a s n ’ t a v a i l a b le a t th e ti m e w h e n M d lu li s e t tl e d h is a m o u n t , s o
t h a t v e h ic l e c a m e la t e r a n d t h e d is c o u n t t h e n w e n t b a c k t o L e e u H u i s
a n d th a t m o n e y w a s th e n p a id b a c k to N is s a n A t la n ti s a s p a r t o f th e
f u n d s t h a t w a s u s e d t o s e t t l e t h e d e b t o n M d lu li ’s v e h ic le . S o t h a t i s ,
in e s s e n c e h o w it w o r k e d , t h e t w o v e h ic l e s in q u e s t io n a r e b o th
10

v e h ic l e s b o u g h t b y C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e t h r o u g h t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e
account and approved by General Lazarus and arranged by Colonel
B a r n a r d , t h a t i s , a s I s a i d t h a t is , i n e s s e n c e t h e c a s e th a t u n f o l d e d
b e f o r e u s a s p a r t o f o u r i n v e s ti g a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d t h e w h o le t r a n s a c t io n ,

s o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e d id – a s y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e t r a n s a c t io n d i d C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e n e e d t o b u y t w o v e h i c l e s , o r y o u c a n ’ t s a y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r l a t e r o n i t tr a n s p ir e d w h e n I

r e c e i v e d t h e d o c u m e n t s , n o w t h e s e a r e t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t I c a n n o t
u til is e , w h e n i t tr a n s p ir e d t h a t th e v e h ic le s t h a t th e m e m o th a t t h e
20

c o m p a n y – t h e p a y m e n t f o r th e s e v e h i c le s o r t h e m e m o t h a t t h e
c o m p a n y r e q u e s t to b u y th e v e h ic l e w e r e i n d e e d f a l s e , t h e r e a s o n s
s u p p li e d i n t h e r e d o e s n o t s u p p o r t th e a c tu a l u s e o f th e v e h i c l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o it w a s b o u g h t – t h e r e a s o n s

g iv e n w a s s o m e th in g a n d t h e n w a s u s e d f o r s o m e t h i n g e l s e , s o t h e r e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w a s a m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n t o t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t a s w e ll a s t h e
S o u th A fr ic a P o l ic e S e r v ic e i n t e r m s o f t h e m o n i e s t h a t w a s u s e d th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t u l t i m a te ly t w o v e h ic l e s w e r e p u r c h a s e d b y

C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d f o r –

a n d t h e t w o v e h ic le s t h a t w a s b o u g h t , t h e o n e w e n t t o – I w i ll h a v e t o
h a v e a lo o k a t th e n u m b e r w i th i n t h a t d o c u m e n t t h a t I g a v e y o u C h a ir
a s w e ll a s th e o th e r v e h ic l e w e n t t o G e n e r a l M d lu li f o r h is u s e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t t h e y w e r e – w e r e t h e y r e g i s te r e d u n d e r C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e o r t h e y w e r e b o u g h t w it h - o r C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e m o n e y w a s
u s e d t o b u y th e m b u t o th e r w i s e t h e y w e r e r e g is te r e d u n d e r G e n e r a l
M d lu li ’s n a m e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Chair I cannot remember General

M d lu li ’s v e h ic l e , I d o n ’ t t h i n k i t w a s r e g is t e r e d s p e c i f ic a l ly i n h i s n a m e
it

p r o b a b ly

was

r e g is te r e d

in

a

fr o n t c o m p a n y

used

by

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e b u t th e o t h e r v e h i c l e w a s r e g is t e r e d i n t h e p e r s o n t h a t
u s e d t h e v e h ic l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u k n o w I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t ju s t t h e t w o .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

Ye s I ’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h o s e tw o

yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u s a y y o u d o n ’ t t h i n k t h a t a n y o f t h e m , t h o s e

t w o w e r e r e g i s te r e d i n G e n e r a l M d lu li ’s n a m e , y o u d o n ’ t th in k s o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o w h a t I’ m s a y i n g is t h e o n e

v e h ic l e , i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tl y w a s r e g i s t e r e d – i n o t h e r w o r d s th e 5
s e r ie s B M W w a s r e g is te r e d i n a fr o n t c o m p a n y ’s n a m e u s e d b y C I a n d

Page 76 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e o t h e r v e h ic l e w a s r e g is t e r e d i n o n e t h e in d iv i d u a l ’s n a m e s w h ic h is
in t h a t l is t i n fr o n t o f y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y s o w o u l d it b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t

w h o e v e r w a s k e y to t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h e s e t w o v e h ic l e s d i d n ’ t w a n t t o
h i d e th e f a c t t h a t t h e s e w e r e C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e v e h i c l e s b u t th e y m a y
have wanted to have unlawful use of them ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir to a c e r t a i n e x t e n t t h a t

is w h y c o m p a n y X is u s e d t o h i d e i t fr o m t h e p u b li c th a t i t is a C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e v e h ic le , t h a t is a r e q u i r e m e n t, I w o u l d c o n s i d e r a le g a l
10

r e q u ir e m e n t f o r t h e m t o g iv e a v e h ic le t o s o m e o n e w h o is i n v o lv e d i n
a c t u a l p r o j e c ts f o r th e s a f e g u a r d o f t h a t s p e c i fi c p e r s o n o r t h a t p r o j e c t
b u t in t h is in s ta n c e th a t i s n o t w h a t I fo u n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e p r iv a t e v e h ic l e w h e r e n o w it c o m e s i n w a s

a n y m o n e y u s e d th a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n f o r th e b e n e f it o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e b u t u l ti m a t e l y w a s u s e d t o b e n e fi t a n i n d i v i d u a l?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir p e r s o n i n r e s p e c t o f th a t

tr a n s a c ti o n t h e m o n ie s th a t is s u p p o s e d t o a c c r u e t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e
in t h e f o r m o f d is c o u n ts w h ic h r e l a t e d t o a b o u t R 9 0 0 0 0 o r R 8 0 0 0 0 a s I
s a i d t h e e x a c t a m o u n t i s m e n t io n e d l a t e r i n m y a ff id a v i t , t h a t a m o u n t
20

s h o u l d h a v e a c c r u e d t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e , th a t d is c o u n t b u t i n s te a d i t
w e n t t o c o v e r t h e c o s t o f t h e f in a l i n s t a l m e n t a m o u n t o f G e n e r a l
M d lu li … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

The private…[intervenes].

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

O f G e n e r a l M d l u l i y e s , a p r iv a te

in d i v i d u a l .

Page 77 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o w o u l d th a t m o n e y h a v e b e e n p a i d d ir e c tl y t o

h i m o r w o u l d i t h a v e b e e n p a i d t o w h a t e v e r h e w a s g o in g t o p a y t o
s e t tl e th a t d e b t?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir p e r s o n f r o m – I h a v e n ’ t

lo o k e d a t a ll t h e d e ta il b u t fr o m w h a t I c a n r e m e m b e r t h a t m o n e y w a s
paid

by

Leeu

H u is

to

they

b a n k in g

i n s ti t u ti o n

that

s ti ll

h a d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

That he owed?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f I c a n t h e n ta k e y o u t o p a g e 1 7

b e f o r e w e c o n ti n u e w i th th e e a r li e r p a r t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u ta lk
s p e c i f ic a l ly to th e r o l e o f C o l o n e l B a r n a r d in p u r c h a s i n g t h e B M W f o r
G e n e r a l M d l u l i , is it c o r r e c t t h e n t h a t th is is e x a c tly t h e s a m e
tr a n s a c ti o n th a t y o u w e r e n o w r e fe r r i n g to a s y o u w e r e e x p l a i n i n g it to
t h e C h a ir ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , th is

is t h e tr a n s a c t io n t h a t I j u s t e x p l a i n e d t o t h e C o m m is s i o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

And is it then correct they had to

b r e a k d o w n w h a t y o u s a i d th a t i t w a s c o m p a n y X t h a t w a s r e p r e s e n t e d
b y C o l o n e l B a r n a r d in t h e p u r c h a s e o f t h o s e v e h ic l e s , o n b e h a l f o f
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o r r y I d id n ’t h e a r t h e q u e s ti o n ?

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s i t c o r r e c t th a t i t w a s C o l o n e l

B a r n a r d w h o r e p r e s e n te d c o m p a n y X i n t h e p u r c h a s e o f th e v e h ic le s b y

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r a n d p a y m e n t

w a s a u t h o r is e d b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e tr a d e - i n v e h ic l e w a s t h e

v e h ic l e w h ic h b e l o n g e d to G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d w h a t w a s th e s e t tl e m e n t
a m o u n t o n t h a t v e h i c l e a s y o u ’v e i n d ic a te d i n p a r a g r a p h 4 2 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir th e s e t t le m e n t a m o u n t w a s

R 5 6 0 5 2 6 .0 1 I s e e t h a t I d i d n o t m e n t i o n t h e v a lu e o f t h e v e h ic l e w h ic h
w a s t h e n , o b v i o u s l y s u b tr a c t e d fr o m th e s e t t le m e n t a m o u n t w h i c h
10

amounted to about R90 000.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i n e s s e n c e t h e e v i d e n c e th a t

y o u ’v e g iv e n s o fa r i s th a t C o l o n e l B a r n a r d , o n b e h a lf o f c o m p a n y X
p u r c h a s e d t w o v e h ic l e s f o r C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e , s o to s p e a k , i n o r d e r fo r
t h e m t o fi n a n c e t h e s h o r t f a ll o n t h e t r a d e - i n v e h ic le o f G e n e r a l M d lu li ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
And w hat has been the outcome of

t h is p a r tic u la r in v e s ti g a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir th is is th e – th is w a s th e

b e g in n i n g , G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d C o lo n e l B a r n a r d w a s a r r e s t e d a n d my
20

e v i d e n c e b e fo r e th e M o k g o r o C o m m i s s i o n r e la t e s to t h is s p e c i fic
tr a n s a c ti o n a n d o n t h e 1 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r t h e c a s e w a s w i t h d r a w n i n t h e
R e g io n a l C o u r t o r th e C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e C o u r t in P r e t o r ia .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o w h a v i n g e x p l a in e d t h e l in k

between

th is

the

Vo s l o o r u s

case

and

Secret

S e r v ic e s

Account

in v e s t i g a t io n y o u m e n ti o n e d th a t y o u w e r e a p p r o a c h e d b y v a r io u s

Page 79 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
m e m b e r s w it h in C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir e s p e c i a l ly i n

t h e e a r ly p a r t o f th e i n v e s t ig a t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Did these members approach you

openly?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir th e y w o u ld g iv e y o u a

c a l l a n d y o u w o u ld h a v e t o g o a n d m e e t t h e m s o m e w h e r e , s o m e w h e r e
c la n d e s ti n e w h e r e t h e y fe e l c o m f o r t a b l e ta l k in g t o y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

W h y w e r e th e y s c a r e d t o m e e t w it h

you?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir f r o m w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d ,

w h a t t h e y to l d m e , i s th a t th e y a r e s c a r e d , t h e y d i d n ’ t w a n t t o c o m e
f o r w a r d a n d w h e n c o m i n g f o r w a r d in t h e p a s t t h e y w e r e b a s ic a l ly to l d
y o u c a n n o t d o t h i s o r y o u m u s t s t o p y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n o r w h y a r e y o u
a s k in g t h e s e q u e s ti o n s , s o t h e y d i d n ’ t f e e l c o m f o r t a b l e s p e a k i n g t o
t h e ir

senior

o ff ic e r s

within

Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e

because

that

c o n v e r s a ti o n s o r r e p r i m a n d s c a m e f r o m t h e ir o w n o ff ic e r s , t h e ir o w n
s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A t p a r a g r a p h 3 8 o n p a g e 1 5 , j u s t to

t a k e y o u a f e w p a g e s b a c k y o u t a lk a b o u t a n a ffi d a v i t o f C o l o n e l
J a c o b i s J o h a n n e s H e n d r ik R o o s , i f I’ m p r o n o u n c in g th a t c o r r e c tl y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

J a I th i n k it is J a c o b u s a n d n o t

Jacobis?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A p o l o g i e s f o r t h a t , if I c a n t h e n a s k

y o u t o g o t o p a g e 8 3 o f t h e s a m e b u n d l e , d o y o u r e c o g n is e th is

Page 80 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
document?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir I d o , i t i s th e – i t i s a n

a ffi d a v i t t h a t w e r e c e iv e d fr o m C o l o n e l R o o s , if I ’ m n o t m i s t a k e n o n th e
- it was commissioned on the 6th of November 2013 and I obtained the
a ffi d a v i t a s p a r t o f t h e C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e in v e s ti g a t io n o r t h e S S A
in v e s t i g a t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So were you involved in any

in t e r v ie w in g o r t a k i n g d o w n th is p a r t ic u l a r a ffi d a v i t a t a ll ?
MR
10

KOBUS

DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

Th a t is

c o r r e c t C h a ir, I

in t e r v ie w e d Mr R o o s o n v a r i o u s o c c a s i o n s r e g a r d i n g h is in v o lv e m e n t
a n d w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d t o h i m b e c a u s e i t w a s i m p o r t a n t f o r m e to
u n d e r s t a n d a n d t o r e a lis e t h e d i ff ic u l t ie s th a t h e h a s g o n e th r o u g h
w h ic h , a t t h e ti m e s e e m e d v e r y m u c h s i m il a r t o t h e o n e s t h a t I ’ m g o i n g
t h r o u g h a n d th a t is th e r e a s o n w h y I a l s o t o o k h is a ff i d a v i t t o e x p la i n
w h e r e w e a r e i n r e s p e c t o f o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n , t h e S S A i n v e s ti g a t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t’s t h e i m p o r t a n t f e a t u r e s o f

t h is a ffi d a v i t a n d t h e e v id e n c e t h a t h e g iv e s in t h is a ffi d a v it ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir, i n e s s e n c e w h a t Mr R o o s

h a s s a i d i s t h a t h e h a s i n th e p a s t b r o u g h t t o t h e a t te n ti o n o f s e n i o r
20

m a n a g e m e n t w i th in C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d t h i s n o w s p a n s fr o m 2 0 0 4
w h ic h d i d n o t in c l u d e t h e t i m e fr a m e t h a t I i n v e s t ig a t e d , t h a t h e w a s
s tr u g g li n g to g e t s e n i o r m a n a g e m e n t to c o o p e r a t e a n d a s s i s t w i t h –
w h ic h I w o u l d c o n s id e r s e r io u s a c c u s a ti o n s t o w a r d s m e m b e r s o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e . T h e o n e , f o r i n s ta n c e d e a l t w i t h a c o m p a n y th a t w a s u s e d
b y a m e m b e r o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e t o c l e a n s a fe h o u s e s b u t h e d o e s n o t

Page 81 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
d e c l a r e i t a n d t h e r e ’s o v e r p a y m e n t t h a t t a k e s p l a c e . S o y o u n e e d to – I
t h i n k fo r t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o u n d e r s t a n d h i s p o s i t io n , C o lo n e l R o o s w a s
a n a u d i to r, in t e r n a l a u d it o r a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e s o i t w a s h is w o r k to
a u d it th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e ’s a c c o u n t . S o i n t e r m s o f t h a t h e h a d a c c e s s
t o t h o s e d o c u m e n ts .

H e s t a r te d a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n 2 0 0 4 a n d h e w a s

i m m e d i a t e ly s t o p p e d b y G e n e r a l M p h e g o i n a m a n n e r t h a t ’s n o t e v e n – I
d o n ’t e v e n c o n s i d e r p r o f e s s io n a l … [ i n te r v e n e s ].
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y a n d w h a t p o s i t io n d i d G e n e r a l
M p h e g o h o ld a t t h e ti m e ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

As far as I know General Mphego

w a s e it h e r t h e D iv i s i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e o r h e w a s
t h e a c t in g D iv is io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r, I’ m n o t e x a c tly s u r e b u t h e w a s t h e
le a d i n g p e r s o n a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a t t h e ti m e w h e n th is t o o k p la c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Wh at happened after General

M p h e g o s t o p p e d C o l o n e l R o o s i n h is in v e s ti g a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W e ll t h a t’s t h e p o i n t n o th i n g

h a p p e n e d h e w a s n o t a ll o w e d t o c o n ti n u e w i t h h i s i n v e s t i g a t io n a n d th e
i m p o r t a n t p a r t fo r m e c a m e in 2 0 0 9 w i t h th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f G e n e r a l
M d lu li a n d t h a t r e la t e s t o th e t e s t i m o n y I ’ m g iv in g t o d a y a n d th a t is w h y
20

I a s k e d f o r a n a ffi d a v it . B a s ic a l ly w h a t M r R o o s is s a y in g t h a t a f t e r t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r M d lu li o r G e n e r a l M d lu li i n 2 0 0 9 h e w a s a p p o i n t e d
o n t h e 1 s t o f J u n e i f I’ m n o t m i s ta k e n o f 2 0 0 9 , h e t h e n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s c o r r e c t – f ir s t o f J u ly 2 0 0 9 .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o r r y C h a ir i t ’s th e 1 s t o f J u ly

2 0 0 9 , h e i m m e d ia t e l y, w e l l i m m e d i a t e ly is p r o b a b ly t h e w r o n g w o r d b u t

Page 82 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w i t h i n t h e s a m e m o n th h e r e q u e s t e d C o l o n e l R o o s to g e t h e r w i t h o th e r
m e m b e r s , I t h i n k th e y a ll fo r m p a r t o f t h e a u d i t t e a m b u t I ’ m n o t s u r e
a b o u t t h e o th e r t w o , to d o a n in v e s t i g a ti o n i n t o th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e
a c c o u n t a n d w i t h s p e c i f ic a l ly f o c u s i n g o n G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a s th e C F O
o f th e a c c o u n t .

H e w a s g iv e n a w r i tt e n in s t r u c t i o n t o d o s o a n d h i s

in v e s t i g a t io n fo r a w h i le , a c o u p le o f m o n t h s , h e p r o v id e d G e n e r a l
M d lu li w it h p r o g r e s s r e p o r t s i n te r m s o f h i s i n v e s ti g a t i o n . H e t h e n – a t
t h e ti m e h e d e c i d e d to c o n t i n u e w i th th e i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t w a s s t o p p e d
in 2 0 0 4 a n d h e a ls o p i c k e d u p s o m e o t h e r a n o m a l ie s w h ic h h e t h e n
10

w a n t e d to i n v e s t ig a t e . H e w a s t h e n – a ft e r g iv in g t h e s e c o n d p r o g r e s s
report

he

had

d i ffi c u l ti e s

in

obtaining

d o c u m e n ts

in

h is

own

e n v ir o n m e n t a s t h e a u d i t o r a n d th o s e d i ffi c u l ti e s , a c c o r d i n g to h i m ,
came

from

General Lazarus

who

s to p p e d

him from

g e t t in g

the

d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t h e n e e d s t o fi n a l is e t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is it to be understood that he was

s t o p p e d b y t h e v e r y p e r s o n th a t h e w a s a s k e d t o i n v e s t ig a t e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

H e t h e n , i n w r i ti n g , r e q u e s t e d

G e n e r a l M d l u l i t o – o r h e p r e p a r e d a d o c u m e n t f o r G e n e r a l M d lu li f o r
h is s i g n a t u r e w h ic h w o u ld a ll o w h i m a c c e s s t o th e s e d o c u m e n t s .
G e n e r a l M d l u l i th e n r e f u s e d to s i g n i t a n d o n t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 9
G e n e r a l M d l u l i r e m o v e d h i m f r o m t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a n d s to p p e d th a t
in v e s t i g a t io n a n d d i d n ’ t c o n t in u e , h e w a s n ’ t g iv e n r e a s o n s a p a r t fr o m
t h e f a c t t h a t h e s h o u l d s t o p t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n .

Page 83 of 150

So to me that became

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e t h a t w a s p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f w h a t I h a v e e x p e r ie n c e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What happened in November of 2009

w e a r e o n p a g e 1 6 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t p a r a g r a p h 3 9 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M y a ffi d a v it p a g e 1 6 ?

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

In November 2009 General

L a z a r u s , h e fa c i li t a t e d a t r i p a b r o a d f o r G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d h is c u r r e n t
w i f e w h i c h is T h e r e s a L y o n s t o S i n g a p o r e , s h o r tly t h e r e a f te r h e
f a c i li t a te d a n o t h e r t r i p a b r o a d f o r G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d h is e x - w i f e , M r s
10

Vu s i w a n e L i lly M d l u l i t o C h in a a n d th e n a s I s a i d I d e a l w i th t h is in
m o r e d e t a i l la t e r o n b u t a s o n t h e 3 r d o f D e c e m b e r t h e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i
s t o p p e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d th e S e c r e t S e r v i c e ’s
account.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h i s w a s a n i n v e s ti g a t io n i n t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

f a c i li t a ti o n o f th e tr i p fo r G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d h is w i f e t o S in g a p o r e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir, t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n d id n o t

r e l a t e t o t h a t t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n r e l a te d t o th e L LV S i n f o r m a t io n ,
c o m p a n y th a t w a s i d e n ti f ie d a n d o th e r is s u e s r e l a ti n g t o th e a b u s e o f
t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e ’s a c c o u n t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d f o r th e r e c o r d a r e y o u r e f e r r in g

t o L LV S Tr a d i n g S e r v ic e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
N o w w h a t is t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f y o u

m e n ti o n i n g t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n t h a t C o l o n e l R o o s w a s i n v o l v e d i n a n d

Page 84 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e n fo ll o w i n g u p w i th tr i p s th a t y o u u n e a r t h e d t o h a v e b e e n a r r a n g e d
b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s fo r t h e M d l u l i fa m i ly, f o l lo w e d u p b y t h e s t o p p i n g o f
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir d u r i n g th e c o u r s e o f t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n , a n d I’ m t a lk in g a b o u t o v e r t h e p e r i o d i t b e c a m e e v i d e n t
t o m e t h a t G e n e r a l M d lu li , w h e n h e w a s a p p o i n te d a s th e h e a d o f –
D i v is io n a l C o m m i s s io n e r o f C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e , c a m e th e r e w i th a n
in t e n t io n t o , le t ’s c a l l it , c l e a n u p C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e . U n f o r tu n a te ly, h e
w a s t h e n – a t t h a t s t a g e I w o u ld c a ll h i m t h e v ic t i m o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ,
10

w h o s e t i n m o t i o n c e r ta i n e v e n ts to c o m p r o m is e G e n e r a l M d l u l i w h ic h
in c l u d e s th e s e tw o e v e n ts a n d b a s e d o n t h a t , G e n e r a l M d l u l i h a d n o
o p t io n b u t t o s t o p a n y i n v e s ti g a ti o n b e c a u s e h is o w n a c t io n s w o u l d
b e c o m e k n o w n a t t h a t p o in t in t i m e a n d t h a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y I’ m
m e n ti o n i n g i t i n th is f a s h io n . N o w y o u ’ ll s e e f r o m w h e n I t e s t i fy f u r t h e r,
t h is is n o t a n is o l a te d i n c i d e n t i t h a p p e n s l a te r o n i n t h e a ff i d a v i t a s
w e ll w h e r e p e o p le a r e g e t ti n g d r a w n i n t o a s it u a ti o n a n d t h e n
a ft e r w a r d s th e y a r e n o t a b le t o w a l k a w a y f r o m t h a t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If we could now then go to page 18

o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t a t w h ic h y o u ta lk a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s t h a t y o u w e n t
20

through

to

o b t a in

c l a s s i fi e d

d o c u m e n t a ti o n

relevant

to

the

in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t y o u w e r e i n v o l v e d i n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir i t i s p a r a g r a p h 4 7 th a t t h e

d a t e w e s e a r c h e d fo r a p p e a r s a n d th a t is t h a t o n th e 6 t h o f S e p t e m b e r
2 0 11 t h e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n ts w e r e d u ly a u t h o r is e d .

Page 85 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h a t d a te c o r r e c t ?

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir t h e d a t e is c o r r e c t b u t i t ’s

n o t th e s a m e – I ’ m n o t ta lk i n g a b o u t th e s e a r c h a n d s e i z u r e a t t h e
h o m e o f G e n e r a l M d l u li h e r e , I ’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t a d i ff e r e n t s e a r c h a n d
seizure.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w i ll y o u g e t t h a t c o r r e c t e d i n a s u p p le m e n t a r y

a ffi d a v i t M is s S e p t e m b e r ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Ye s C h a ir, w e ’ ll t h e n a c tu a lly n e e d

t o fi n d t h e c o r r e c t d a t e fo r th e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e .
10

Th is s e a r c h a n d

s e i z u r e t h e n th a t w a s o b ta in e d o n th e 6 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 , w h a t d i d
it r e l a t e t o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r i t r e l a te d t o t h e i n f o r m a t i o n

t h a t w e r e c e iv e d fr o m m e m b e r s o f C r i m e In t e ll i g e n c e , fir s t ly, s e c o n d ly it
r e l a t e s to t h e , le t ’s c a ll i t t h e M d l u l i B a r n a r d i n v e s ti g a t i o n t h e B M W
in v e s t i g a t io n . S o w e w e r e l o o k i n g fo r d o c u m e n t a ti o n e i t h e r t o p r o v e o r
d is p r o v e w h e t h e r t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s t o o k p la c e a n d b a s e d o n t h a t w e
a p p li e d f o r t h e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n t w h ic h w a s is s u e d o n t h e 6 t h
o f S e p te m b e r 2 0 11 .

U n f o r t u n a t e ly, o r f o r t u n a te ly – I d o n ’ t k n o w h o w

y o u w a n t t o p h r a s e t h a t b u t I f e l t t h a t a t t h e ti m e I c a n n o t – it ’s n o t
20

g o o d g o v e r n a n c e to s e r v e a s e a r c h a n d s e i z u r e w a r r a n t n o t o n ly o n
a n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t b u t o n t h e s a m e d e p a r t m e n t th a t y o u a r e w o r k i n g
f o r a n d I th i n k th e c o n s ti t u t i o n a l s o tr i e s t o a v o id t h a t k in d o f s i t u a t io n .
S o I t h e n s p o k e to G e n e r a l D r a m a t b u t a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e w e w e r e –
w e d i d n ’ t g e t a n y c o o p e r a ti o n s o w e w e r e – o u r h a n d s w e r e fo r c e d t o
g e t s e a r c h a n d s e i z u r e w a r r a n ts . A t th e ti m e I a s k e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t

Page 86 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w h o w a s th e – th is is n o w S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 w h o w a s th e h e a d o f th e
DPCI or the Hawks at the time…[intervenes].
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h a t is A n w a D r a m a t ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

G e n e r a l A n w a D r a m a t, I a s k e d f o r

h is a s s is t a n c e b e c a u s e w e w e r e – in r e s p e c t o f t h e C r i m e a n d
I n t e lli g e n c e i n v e s ti g a t i o n b e c a u s e I w o r k e d – w e ’r e n o w w o r k in g fr o m
G a u t e n g o u t o f h e a d o ff ic e , I r e p o r te d d ir e c t ly to G e n e r a l D r a m a t n o t t o
G e n e r a l M a t e k a t e a n y m o r e . W e t h e n a s k e d h i m , d u e t o t h e s e n s it iv i ty
o f t h e m a t t e r w h e t h e r h e w il l b e a b l e t o i n te r v e n e a n d s p e a k t o t h e
10

h e a d s o f C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e , th o s e d e p a r t m e n ts s o t h a t w e c a n s e tt l e
h o w w e ’r e g o i n g t o g e t h o ld o f t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n th a t is n e e d e d f o r t h e
c r i m i n a l i n v e s ti g a ti o n .

O n th e 1 3 t h o f S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 t h e r e w a s a

m e e ti n g a t O l iv e r Ta m b o I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t a n d th e m e e ti n g w a s
a tt e n d e d b y G e n e r a l S i b iy a , G e n e r a l G o d fr e y L e b e y a w h o is t h e c u r r e n t
h e a d o f t h e D P C I H a w k s , a t t h e t i m e h e w a s t h e h e a d o f d e te c t iv e , i f
I’ m n o t m i s ta k e n a n d th e r e f o r e C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e w o u l d h a v e f a ll e n
u n d e r h is c o m m a n d , w e h a d G e n e r a l M a j o r Ve l e S i m o n M a t s h a ts h e
t h e r e , G e n e r a l M a t s h a ts h e w a s th e a c t in g h e a d o f C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a t
t h e ti m e a n d C o l o n e l Vi l jo e n a n d m y s e l f .
20

N o w d u r i n g t h e m e e ti n g a n

a g r e e m e n t w a s r e a c h e d b e t w e e n t h e v a r i o u s h e a d s o f t h o s e d i ffe r e n t
u n i ts w i t h i n S A P S a n d i t’s b a s ic a lly G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l
L e b e y a b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e t h e u l ti m a t e r e s p o n s i b l e p e r s o n s f o r th o s e
u n i ts a n d a n a g r e e m e n t w a s r e a c h e d th a t a p e r s o n fr o m C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e w o u ld b e a p p o i n te d t o fa c il i ta t e t h e p r o c e s s , i n o th e r w o r d s
t o m a k e s u r e w e w o r k w i t h i n t h e b o u n d a r i e s o f th e Ac t a s w e l l a s

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
m a k i n g s u r e t h a t w e d o n ’ t c o m p r o m is e a n y c u r r e n t p r o j e c ts o r a g e n ts o r
a n y th in g l ik e t h a t a n d i n th a t r e g a r d M a jo r G e n e r a l H a n k e l w a s
a p p o i n t e d t o a s s i s t u s in t h a t p r o c e s s .

M a jo r G e n e r a l H a n k e l is fr o m

C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a n d h e t h e n , to g e th e r w i th a Br ig a d i e r v a n G r a a n
w h o w a s s i t u a t e d o r w h o w a s f r o m t h e N a t io n a l L e g a l S e r v i c e s fr o m
S A P S , t h e y th e n a s s i s t e d m e w i th o b ta in i n g t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So was the search and seizure

warrant executed?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

T h e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n t

w a s n e v e r e x e c u te d i t w a s n e v e r n e c e s s a r y t o e x e c u t e th e w a r r a n t
because we – there was an agreement reached between us and a
v o l u n ta r y p a r t ic i p a ti o n a n d t h e p r o c e s s t o o k p l a c e b e c a u s e i t’s e x a c t ly
w h y I a p p r o a c h e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t t o m a k e s u r e th a t w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o
u s e – g o t o th a t e x tr e m e e x t e n t t o g e t d o c u m e n ts fr o m a n o th e r
d e p a r t m e n t w it h in S A P S .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th r o u g h th is f a c il it a ti o n p r o c e s s

d i d y o u r e c e iv e a n y d o c u m e n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir I r e c e iv e d

d o c u m e n ts fr o m G e n e r a l H a n k e l a n d a s p a r t o f t h e i n f o r m a ti o n a t w e
20

r e q u ir e d w e r e t h e in f o r m a ti o n r e l a t i n g t o a g e n t s – w e ll s e v e n a g e n ts
t h a t w a s a p p o i n t e d w i th i n t h e p r o g r a m m e , t h e C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e , w h a t I
w o u ld c a ll a 2 5 0 p o s t , it w a s a r e c r u i t m e n t b y C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e i n t h a t
p e r i o d t o … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What period sir?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W e ’r e ta lk i n g a b o u t t h e p e r io d o f

Page 88 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
2 0 1 0 , 2 0 11 to a tt r a c t p e o p l e fr o m o u ts id e t o a s s is t w i t h – t o s tr e n g t h e n
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w i th v a r i o u s s k i ll s e i t h e r I T s k i lls o r w h a te v e r th e
c a s e m a y b e , s o t h a t w a s t h e r e a s o n b e h i n d t h e , w h a t w e c a ll t h e 2 5 0
r e c r u it m e n t p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h is m i g h t b e th e r i g h t ti m e to ta k e t h e l u n c h

a d j o u r n m e n t , l e t’s c o n t in u e a f t e r l u n c h w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t 2 o ’ c l o c k .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
10

CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir t o a d d r e s s y o u r fir s t q u e r y i n

r e l a ti o n t o th e t e r m s o f o ffic e o f t h e M i n is t e r o f P o l ic e a n d t h e N a ti o n a l
C o m m i s s i o n e r s o f P o lic e o u r i n v e s ti g a to r w a s k i n d e n o u g h t o e x tr a c t
t w o p a g e s o f a p r e s e n t a ti o n a t t h e s t a r t o f th e s tr e a m w h ic h b y y o u r
le a v e I a s k t h a t I c o u l d h a n d u p ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A n d t h e n C h a ir in r e l a ti o n t o t h e

h i g h c o u r t j u d g m e n t w h ic h i s th e f u l l Fr e e d o m u n d e r L a w j u d g m e n t
w h ic h i s a t Ta b 8 u n d e r K K 2 . 4 o f t h a t – o f th is b u n d le . I t w a s J u s ti c e
M u r p h y w h o h a n d e d d o w n t h e d e c is i o n a n d e s s e n ti a l ly th e d e c is i o n s
t h a t w e r e s o u g h t t o b e r e v i e w e d r e la t e d t o d e c is io n s c o n c e r n i n g
G e n e r a l M d l u li i t – i n p a r tic u la r t h e n c o n c e r n e d t h e r e v ie w a n d s e t a
s id i n g o f t h o s e d e c is i o n s . I n th a t r e g a r d t h e h i g h c o u r t h a d s e t a s i d e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h r e e d e c is i o n s . T h e fir s t d e c i s i o n w a s t h e d e c is i o n t o w it h d r a w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e w i th d r a w a l o f t h e d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s a n d

h is r e in s ta t e m e n t . A n d t h e n t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f th e c r i m in a l c h a r g e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o r r e c t C h a ir a n d i t i s th o s e

p a r t ic u l a r c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s w h ic h a r e th e fr a u d a n d c o r r u p t io n c h a r g e s
t h a t t h is w i tn e s s s p e a k s t o i n r e la t io n to G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d C o l o n e l
Barnard.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

T h e r e w a s a l s o a d e c is i o n ta k e n t o

withdraw 17 criminal charges by Advocate Chauke but having said that
t h e h i g h c o u r t a ls o g r a n t e d a n o r d e r w h i c h w a s a n i n t e r d ic t to r e i n s t a te
t h e c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d s o t o r e i n s t a te t h e
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s a g a i n s t G e n e r a l M d lu li .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

In a d d i t io n to a n c i ll a r y o r d e r s .

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

The Supreme Court of Appeal

t h r o u g h J u s t ic e B r a n d t c o n fi r m e d t h e s e t t in g a s i d e o f t h e d e c is i o n s in
r e l a ti o n to t h e w i th d r a w a l o f t h e c o r r u p ti o n a n d fr a u d c h a r g e s a g a i n s t
General

M d l u li

so

to

th e

d e c is io n

to

w i th d r a w

the

disciplinary

p r o c e e d i n g s a g a in s t G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d s o t o t h e d e c i s i o n t o r e i n s t a te
M d lu li a s t h e H e a d o f C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e . S o a l l t h o s e th r e e w e r e t h e n
set aside.

H o w e v e r t h e c o u r t w a s n o t p r e p a r e d t o c o n fir m t h e o r d e r s

Page 90 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w h ic h c a l l e d f o r t h e r e in s ta t e m e n t – s o r r y t h e c o u r t d i d n o t a g r e e w i t h
t h e o r d e r i n g o f t h e in t e r d i c t s to r e in s t a t e b e c a u s e i t f o u n d t h a t th e
in t e r d ic t s w e r e i n a p p r o p r ia t e tr a n s g r e s s io n s o f th e s e p a r a t io n s o f
p o w e r d o c tr in e .

I t a l s o w e n t s o f a r a s t o n o t a g r e e w i th th e s e t t in g

a s i d e o f A d v o c a t e C h a u k e ’s d e c i s i o n t o w i t h d r a w t h o s e 1 7 c r i m i n a l
c h a r g e s b u t w h a t it d id d o i s th a t i t g a v e e ff e c t t o th e N D P P ’s
u n d e r t a k i n g t o d e c i d e w h i c h o f t h o s e 1 7 c h a r g e s w h ic h i n c l u d e d m u r d e r
a n d r e l a te d c r i m e s w h ic h w e r e w i th d r a w n a r e t o b e r e i n s ti t u te d a n d t o
m a k e t h a t d e c is i o n k n o w n t o Fr e e d o m u n d e r L a w w it h in t w o m o n t h s o f
10

t h e o r d e r a n d t o p r o v i d e a n y r e a s o n s i f i t d o e s n o t r e i n s t it u t e a n y o f
t h o s e c h a r g e s . I n a d d i ti o n to a n c i ll a r y o r d e r s C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o t h a t is fi n e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f w e c o u l d t h e n c o n ti n u e a t p a g e 1 9

o f t h is w i t n e s s ’s a ffi d a v it ? A n d t h a t is b u n d l e K K 2 . 1 f o r th e r e c o r d . M r
R o e lo fs e w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th e 1 8 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 11 ?

I think your

m ic r o p h o n e is o ff .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir o n th a t s p e c i fi c d a t e I h a d

a n a r r a n g e m e n t to s e e o n e C o lo n e l N a i d o o – D G N a i d o o . H e w o r k e d a t
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d fr o m t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n s t h a t I r e c e iv e d fr o m
20

C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a s p a r t o f t h e r e q u e s t f o r – fo r d o c u m e n ts fr o m t h e m
I r e c e i v e d s e v e n fi l e s r e l a ti n g to t h e – r e la ti n g t o s p e c i f ic a g e n ts t h a t
w e r e a p p o in t e d w it h in t h e 2 5 0 a p p o in t m e n t s w h ic h w e r e f e r r e d t o a s th e
2 5 0 a p p o i n t m e n ts . I n r e s p e c t o f t h o s e f il e s I w a s a b l e to e s t a b l is h th a t
t h is C o lo n e l N a i d o o w a s t h e p e r s o n t h a t a c tu a lly d e a l t w i th th e s e
in d i v i d u a ls a s w e ll a s d o – d id th e a d m i n is tr a ti o n s u r r o u n d i n g th e ir

Page 91 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w o r k a t C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w i t h i n th e a g e n t p r o g r a m . S o b a s e d o n t h a t
I r e q u e s t e d C o lo n e l N a i d o o t o c o m e a n d s e e m e a n d I i n t e r v ie w e d h i m .
I a l s o i n t e r v i e w e d h i m r e g a r d in g t h e tr i p t o S i n g a p o r e w h ic h I a l lu d e d t o
e a r l ie r a n d – a n d I c o n fr o n t e d h i m w i t h th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t I h a d i n
m y p o s s e s s i o n . C o l o n e l N a id o o f r o m – fr o m m y u n d e r s t a n d in g … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . Ye s .
MR

KOBUS DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

C o l o n e l N a id o o

fr o m m y

u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d fr o m w h a t h e h a s t o l d m e h e r e p o r te d – h e w o r k e d
f o r G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w i t h i n t h e o p e r a t io n a l g r o u p w h i c h I h a v e e a r li e r
10

[i n d is t in c t] a n d h e r e p o r t e d d ir e c t ly to G e n e r a l L a z a r u s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d h o w e x a c tly w o u l d y o u d e s c r i b e

t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p a s h e d e s c r ib e d it t o y o u b e t w e e n C o lo n e l N a id o o a n d
General Lazarus?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o d e s c r i b e d to m e

t h a t h e is – t h a t h e i s f r i e n d s w i th G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d t h a t t h e y a r e –
t h a t t h e y a r e r e la t e d i n t e r m s o f fa m i ly a l b e i t n o t c l o s e ly b u t t h e y a r e
r e l a t e d in t e r m s o f t h e ir f a m il y. Fa m i ly r e la ti o n s h i p s . S o h e k n e w h i m
a n d h e w o r k e d w i t h h i m f o r a t t h a t p o i n t in ti m e f o r q u i t e s o m e ti m e . H e
w a s a l s o – C o l o n e l – G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s a ls o in s tr u m e n t a l i n b r i n g i n g
20

h i m fr o m K w a z u l u N a t a l to G a u t e n g w h e r e h e c a n w o r k f o r h i m a t t h e
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e o ffic e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d w h a t tr a n s p ir e d t h e n a t th e

in t e r v ie w s t h a t y o u h e ld w i t h C o lo n e l N a i d o o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I i n te r v i e w e d h i m .

He was

a c t u a ll y q u i t e f o r t h c o m in g i n t h e – i n t h e – o n th e 1 8 t h b u t I c o u ld a l s o

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
s e e t h a t h e w a s r e lu c ta n t t o f u l ly d is c l o s e a s t o w h a t h is r o l e w a s a n d
w h e r e h e w a s i n v o l v e d i n . I t h e n s a i d t o h i m I c o n c lu d e d t h a t i n t e r v ie w
f o r t h e i n te r v i e w f o r t h a t d a y a n d I a s k e d h i m to c o m e b a c k t h e n e x t d a y
w h ic h h e d i d . I t h e n s p o k e t o h i m o n t h e 1 9 t h a n d …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e 1 9 t h o f w h ic h m o n t h a n d

year?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Sorry 19th October in other words

t h e n e x t d a y, t h e 1 9 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 11 . A n d h e t h e n d e c i d e d – h e m a d e a
d e c is i o n t o a s s is t m e w i t h th e in v e s t i g a t i o n ; C o l o n e l N a id o o .
10

And as

p a r t o f t h a t h e – h e b r ie f e d m e a n d h e to ld m e a b o u t a l le g a ti o n s t h a t
w a s – a l le g a ti o n s i n r e s p e c t o f th e a b u s e o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t
a s w e ll a s h i s o w n r o l e i n th e a b u s e o f t h e f u n d .

He then – he – he

t h e n w e n t o n t h a t a c c o r d in g to m e h e w e n t o n th a t d a y – h e w e n t b a c k
t o h is o ffi c e – t h is is n o w a f t e r h e d e c i d e d to a s s is t m e a n d h is – a n d
h e a ll u d e d t o c e r ta in th in g s . O b v io u s ly i t w a s n o t a n e x t e n s iv e l is t b u t
h e s t a r te d to c o o p e r a te . H e t h e n c o n f id e d in – h e c o n fi d e d i n C o l o n e l
B a r n a r d o n t h a t d a y w h ic h i s t h e 1 9 t h a c c o r d i n g t o m e a n d …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h a t is t h e 1 9 t h O c to b e r 2 0 11 ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

1 9 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 11 s o r r y – s o r r y

C h a ir. A n d o n t h a t s a m e d a y h e w a s fe t c h e d f r o m h i s h o m e b y G e n e r a l
L a z – w e l l n o t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s – t h i s is n o w w h e r e I c o m e t o – c o m e t o
m e n ti o n t h e c o d e n a m e s o r t h e n u m b e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y e s o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d i t w a s – it w a s F M 0 8 a n d

F M 0 9 th a t c a m e to f e t c h h i m f r o m h is h o m e .

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
CHAIRPERSON: MF9?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

FM08 and FM09.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e y c a m e t o fe t c h fr o m – a t h is

– a t h is r e s i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th e y t o o k h i m t o t h e r e s i d e n c e o f

General Lazarus; the private residence of General Lazarus and they
w a n t e d t o k n o w fr o m h i m – t h e y a c c u s e d h i m t h a t h e – t h a t t h e y k n o w
10

f o r a fa c t t h a t h e i s w o r k in g w i th t h e D P C I . A n d t h e y w a n t e d t o k n o w
fr o m h i m w h a t h e t o ld t h e D P C I m e a n i n g n o w m e .

A n a d d i t io n a l

in d i v i d u a l i n – a l s o c a m e t h e r e w h i c h I m a r k e d a s F M 1 0 – 1 0 ,1 0 a n d
t h e y – h e jo i n e d t h e m a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s ’ h o m e .

C o l o n e l N a id o o

a c c o r d i n g t o h i m h e d e n ie d t h e a ll e g a t io n t h a t h e w a s w o r k in g w i th t h e
D P C I b e c a u s e h e t h o u g h t t h a t w i ll b e p r u d e n t a t th e ti m e th a t h e d i d
n o t k n o w w h a t th e y w a n t to d o w i t h h i m s o h e d e n ie d t h a t h e w a s
w o r k i n g w it h u s . I t w a s d u r in g t h a t c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t – t h a t F M 1 0 a ls o
t o l d h i m t h a t t h e H a w k s i n fo r m e d h i m – a n d I d o n o t k n o w w h o th e s e
H a w k s a r e th a t C o l o n e l N a id o o a d m i tt e d t o c e r t a in th i n g s a n d it i s n o w
20

o n t h e s id e o f th e D P C I . C o l o n e l N a i d o o t o l d m e t h a t h e a g a i n d e n ie d
t h e a l l e g a ti o n s a n d t h e r e w a s – a n d h e w a s a b l e to d e fl e c t th e
s u s p i c i o n r e g a r d i n g th e i r a c c u s a ti o n s .

H e th e n s t a t e s t o m e t h a t t h e

c o n v e r s a ti o n t h e n tu r n e d t o g e n e r a l t o p i c s a n d a t s o m e s ta g e t h e y ta lk
a b o u t a c o m p a n y c a ll e d W e s tv il le Tr a v e l a n d a ir tic k e t s t h a t w e r e
p u r c h a s e d t h r o u g h t h a t c o m p a n y.

FM08 then says that according to

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
Naidoo

that

Hankel

requested

certain

d o c u m e n t a ti o n

fr o m

him

r e g a r d in g th e a ir ti c k e t s . F M 1 0 a n d F M – F M 1 0 t o l d th e n a c c o r d i n g t o
N a i d o o F M 0 8 th a t h e m u s t tr y a n d d e s tr o y t h e r e c o r d s p e r t a i n in g t o t h e
a ir t ic k e ts . O n t h e 2 0 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 11 t h a t d u r i n g t h e d is c u s s i o n o n t h e
19th he was – on the 19th at General Lazarus’ home that he – that he
h e a r d th e m d is c u s s i n g a p l a c e m e n t o f a n e w s p a p e r a r ti c l e i n th e –
r e l a ti n g t o G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b i y a a n d i t is a n a r tic l e
r e g a r d in g – r e g a r d in g t h e r e n d i t io n m a tt e r t h a t G e n e r a l D r a m a t w a s
la t e r a c c u s e d o f.
10

H e s a i d th a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a n t e d t o u s e

[i n d is t in c t] w i t h i n th e m e d i a to w r i t e a s t o r y in o r d e r t o ta k e t h e f o c u s
a w a y fr o m t h e m .

T h is a c c o r d i n g t o C o l o n e l N a i d o o is a s tr a t e g y

e m p l o y e d to c a s t s u s p i c i o n o n t h o s e p e r c e iv e d t o b e t h r e a t .

General

L a z a r u s r e v ie w e d D r a m a t – G e n e r a l D r a m a t a s t h e H e a d o f t h e D P C I a s
t h e f o r c e b e h i n d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n in t o C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e . I w a s t h e n –
I in f o r m e d G e n e r a l D r a m a t a t th e t i m e o f w h a t w a s t o l d t o m e a n d t h e n
a n e w s p a p e r a r ti c l e a p p e a r e d o n t h e 2 3 r d O c t o b e r 2 0 11 i n th e S u n d a y
Ti m e s .

G e n e r a l – G e n e r a l M d l u l i i n t e r m s o f h i s r e p r e s e n ta t io n a n d I

a m j u m p i n g a li t tl e b i t h e r e – h e m a d e a r e p r e s e n t a t i o n to t h e N PA w i t h
r e g a r d s t o h is p r o s e c u t io n .
20

P a r t o f t h a t r e p r e s e n t a ti o n in d ic a t e d t h a t

t h e r e is a c o n s p ir a c y a g a i n s t h i m a n d t h a t – a n d – a n d t h e y u s e d t h a t
a c c o r d i n g to N a i d o o t o – to c a s t s u s p i c i o n o n G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d th e
in v e s t i g a t in g t e a m .

S o t h e s e n e w s p a p e r a r t ic le s t h e i n fo r m a ti o n i s

le a k e d t o c a s t s u s p ic io n o n i n d i v i d u a l t h a t w a n ts to d o t h e ir w o r k . I –
a s I s a i d o n th e 2 3 r d O c to b e r 2 0 11 t h i s n e w s p a p e r a r ti c l e s u r f a c e d i n
t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s . I w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t t h e n e w s p a p e r a r ti c l e w i ll b e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
p u b lis h e d i n t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s .

That was not said, he did not know

t h a t . H e j u s t s a id a n e w s p a p e r a r ti c l e w i l l b e p u b li s h e d . A n d t h e n I –
la t e r o n I b e c a m e a w a r e th a t t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s p u b l is h e d a n a r ti c l e o n
t h e 1 3 t h O c to b e r – a h n o – a t a l a t e r s t a g e I b e c a m e a w a r e th e S u n d a y
Ti m e s p u b lis h e d a f u r th e r a r ti c l e o r m u s t I – I r e p h r a s e t h a t – a n in i ti a l
a r ti c l e o n th e 1 3 t h O c t o b e r w h ic h I d i d n o t k n o w a b o u t a t t h e ti m e
c o n ti n u i n g t o i m p li c a t e G e n e r a l D r a m a t in t h e r e n d i ti o n s c a n d a l s e e a n
– a n d I h a v e g o t t h a t a s A n n e x u r e K D R 4 to m y s ta t e m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M s S e p t e m b e r.

T h e w i t n e s s w a n ts t o – w a n ts

g u i d a n c e fr o m y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

H u m b l e a p o l o g ie s C h a ir I w a s ju s t

[i n d is t in c t] in t o th e r e c o r d .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I j u s t n e e d t o k n o w w h e th e r I

s h o u l d g o to K D R 4 t h e a n n e x u r e t o t h is – t o p a r a g r a p h 5 9 . 1 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n fa c t s in c e y o u a r e o n t h a t p a g e .

T h e i n f o r m a ti o n a n d i n t e ll ig e n c e t h a t y o u t h e n r e c e iv e d th r o u g h C o lo n e l
N a i d o o is i t c o r r e c t t h e n t h a t s u c h i n t e l li g e n c e p r o v e d tr u e t h r o u g h th e
p u b lic a ti o n s i n th e n e w s p a p e r w h i c h y o u a r e w a n ti n g t o r e f e r t o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

The

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t h e p r o v id e d t o m e i n d ic a t e d a b o u t t h e r e n d i ti o n a r t ic l e
i m p l ic a t i n g G e n e r a l Si b iy a a n d G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d t h a t is w h a t I t h e n
s u b s e q u e n t ly f o u n d i n t h e a r t ic le o f – d a t e d t h e 2 3 r d O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d c a n I a s k y o u t h e n to tu r n to

p a g e 1 0 4 o f th e s a m e b u n d l e p l e a s e ?

And on the left hand side you

h a v e a ti tl e c a ll e d H a w k s a n d S A P o li c e A r r e s t in g S u s p e c ts a n d s e n d in g

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e m o v e r t h e b o r d e r t o b e m u r d e r e d . Is t h a t th e a r tic le t h a t y o u w e r e
r e fe r r i n g t o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is t h e a r t ic le I a m r e f e r r in g

t o . W h i c h I to o k t o b e th e a r ti c l e t h a t C o l o n e l N a id o o w a s r e f e r r i n g to .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d C h a ir t h e s a m e a r ti c l e h a s b e e n

ty p e d u p i n a b i t m o r e o f l e g i b le t e r m s o n p a g e 1 0 5 t o 1 0 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is i t c o r r e c t th e n t h a t t h e r e w a s a

f u r th e r a r ti c l e th a t w a s p u b l is h e d o n t h e 1 3 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 1 2 a lo n g th e
10

s a m e li n e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

J a it w a s n o t a f u r t h e r a r ti c l e I

p r e s u m e d t h a t w a s t h e fir s t a r tic l e , t h is is t h e fu r t h e r a r t ic l e . T h e o n e
on the 23rd.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O o p s h u m b l e a p o l o g y I a m g e t t in g

m y d a te s c o n fu s e d . If w e c o u l d t u r n t o t h e n p a g e 1 0 8 . A n d a g a i n o n
t h e f a r l e f t h a n d s i d e y o u h a v e a n a r ti c l e ti t le d D r a m a t t o b e
in t e r r o g a t e d o v e r c la i m s th a t h e f a c i li t a te d i ll e g a l d e p o r t a ti o n o f m e n
w h o w e r e t o r tu r e d a n d k i ll e d a n d Z i m b a b w e h e a d e d u p b y t h e b i g g e r
h e a d i n g o f H a w k s B o s s f i n g e r e d i n r e n d i ti o n s c a n d a l . Is t h a t th e a r ti c l e
20

that you referred to?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is t h e a r ti c l e t h a t I r e f e r r e d

t o a n d w h i c h I s u b s e q u e n t to N a id o o i n fo r m i n g m e a b o u t th e 2 3 r d
O c t o b e r 2 0 11 a r tic l e w h ic h I t h e n w e n t b a c k a n d I s a w t h is a r t ic le w h ic h
– w h i c h w a s p u b l is h e d o n t h e – o n t h e 1 3 t h O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d C h a ir o n c e a g a i n a s w i th t h e

Page 97 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
p r e v i o u s a r ti c l e th is is t o o b e e n ty p e d u p in a m o r e le g ib le f o r m a t o n
p a g e 1 0 9 a n d 11 0 . W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d o n t h e 2 1 s t O c t o b e r 2 0 11 M r
R o e lo fs e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

On the 21st October I was – I was

c a l l e d b y C o l o n e l N a i d o o h e w a s q u i t e u p s e t a t th e ti m e a n d I th e n w e n t
t o s e e h i m . D u r i n g o u r d i s c u s s io n t h e r e h e s a i d h e w a s a g a in fe tc h e d
fr o m h i s h o m e t h a t m o r n i n g a n d t a k e n t o t h e C r i m e In t e lli g e n c e o ff ic e s
w h e r e B a r n a r d , F M 0 7 a n d F M 1 0 w e r e p r e s e n t a n d h e f e l t u n s a fe . T h a t
s a m e e v e n i n g I p l a c e d C o l o n e l N a i d o o t o g e t h e r w i th h i s f a m i ly i n t h e
10

w i t n e s s p r o t e c ti o n p r o g r a m t o a l le v i a t e h i s – h is c o n c e r n r e g a r d i n g h i s
s a f e t y. A n d t h a t w a s n o w th e 2 n d o r 3 r d a t t e m p t o f i n ti m i d a ti n g C o l o n e l
Naidoo at that point in time.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a r a g r a p h 6 1 y o u t a lk t o t h e

a u t h o r i ty o f L a z a r u s t o r e l e a s e f u n d s fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t
a n d h is r e la t io n s h ip o r a l le g e d r e l a ti o n s h ip r a t h e r w i t h r e p o r te r s a n d
la w y e r s . C a n y o u p le a s e a m p l i fy o n t h a t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r I c a n o n l y s t a te h e r e a n d a s

I s ta t e d i n t h i s a ffi d a v it – i n t h is p a r a g r a p h I c a n s t a te w h a t – w h a t
C o l o n e l N a i d o o h a s t o l d m e a n d t h e n s u b s e q u e n t w h a t I fo u n d
20

a ft e r w a r d s . N o w C o l o n e l N a i d o o h a s i n f o r m e d m e t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s
h a d t h e a u th o r it y to r e le a s e f u n d s fr o m t h e S S A w h ic h i s a f a c t . H e h a s
t h a t – h e h a s t h a t a u t h o r it y. H e w a s a b l e t o c o n tr o l fu n d s b e in g p a id to
s o u r c e s a n d c o n ta c t p e r s o n s w h ic h is a ls o c o r r e c t . H e t h e n s t a t e s th a t
r e p o r t e r s a r e u s e d to p u b li s h a n d w i th h o ld a r ti c l e s t o d r i v e a c e r t a i n
n a r r a t iv e . Ac c o r d in g t o C o lo n e l N a i d o o t h e s e r e p o r te r s a r e p a id fr o m

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t .

I a m a l s o a w a r e th a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s

u s e d f u n d s fr o m th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t t o d ir e c t ly a p p o i n t
d e f e n c e la w y e r s t o r e p r e s e n t h i m a f t e r t h e s e a r c h w a r r a n t s w e r e is s u e d
in r e s p e c t o f t h e tw o C I o ffi c e r s a n d I r e fe r to t h e d a t e o f t h e 6 t h
S e p te m b e r 2 0 11 w h ic h w e r e e v e n t u a ll y n o t e x e c u t e d b y a g r e e m e n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

H o w d o y o u k n o w t h is a b o u t t h e u s e

o f f u n d s fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s Ac c o u n t t o a p p o in t d e f e n c e l a w y e r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r a t t h e ti m e I s a t i n t h e c a r.

T h e c a l l c a m e t h r o u g h to C o lo n e l Vi lj o e n a n d w e w e r e o n o u r w a y to a
10

m e e ti n g a s I a ll u d e d e a r l i e r a t O liv e r Ta m b o w i t h G e n e r a l L e b e y a a n d
G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d G e n e r a l S i b e y a . A n d t h e r e w a s a n i n s tr u c ti o n o r
t h e r e w a s a c o m m u n ic a ti o n f r o m t h e d e f e n c e l a w y e r w h o s p o k e o n t h e
p h o n e a n d I h e a r d t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n i t w a s o n l o u d s p e a k e r.

That he

s a i d h e w a s a p p o i n te d b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e t o – t o r e p r e s e n t t h e m in
t e r m s o f t h e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n ts t h a t w e r e is s u e d . A n d I d i d
n o t – I d id n o t t a k e a n y n o t ic e o f t h e c a ll I s a i d w e a r e n o t – w e w il l n o t
b e – w e w i ll n o t b e t a l k i n g t o t h e m .

B e c a u s e th a t w a s n o t t h e – t h a t

was not the proper procedure that – that was followed.

H e o u g h t to

h a v e g o n e t o t h e S A P S – S A P S l e g a l s e r v ic e s t o a p p o i n t la w y e r s
20

t h r o u g h t h e S t a te ’s A t t o r n e y ’s o ff ic e a n d n o t d ir e c t ly a p p r o a c h u s . T h a t
is t h e p r o p e r w a y o f d e a li n g w i t h – w it h t h a t k in d o f r e p r e s e n t a ti o n . I n
m y v ie w t h e r e w a s n o l e g a l b a s is t o c h a l l e n g e t h o s e w a r r a n ts a n d I a m
o f t h e o p i n i o n t h a t t h e p a y m e n t f o r – f o r th e s e l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s
c a m e fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is i t y o u r o p in io n o r i s i t f a c t ?

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Fr o m – I h a v e – I h a d – I t h o u g h t

a b o u t t h i s a g a i n a f t e r – a f t e r – a f te r m a k i n g t h e a ff id a v i t. I c a n n o t s ta t e
it a s a f a c t . I k n o w w h a t h e s a id . H e s a i d t h a t h e is r e p r e s e n t in g t h e
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .

I t o o k t h a t a s a f a c t t h a t C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e is

paying him.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o w h il s t i t m a y b e t h a t y o u a r e

a w a r e th a t t h e r e w e r e c e r ta in d e f e n c e l a w y e r s t h a t w e r e in v o lv e d in t h e
is s u e r e l a ti n g t o t h e s e a r c h w a r r a n ts y o u d o n o t k n o w fo r a fa c t t h a t
s t a te fu n d s t h r o u g h t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t w a s u s e d t o p a y t h o s e
10

la w y e r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o I am not and I based my

o p i n i o n o n t h e – o n t h e c o n v e r s a t io n t h a t I h e a r d o n th e t e l e p h o n e – o n
t h e t e l e p h o n ic c a ll .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A t p a r a g r a p h 6 2 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u

t a lk a b o u t c e r t a i n c o m m u n i c a t io n s w i t h t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e J o i n t
S t a n d i n g C o m m i t te e o n I n te ll ig e n c e , M r C e c il B u r g e s s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C a n y o u p l e a s e e la b o r a te o n t h is

f u r th e r a n d h o w y o u c a m e t o l e a r n o f th is i n fo r m a t i o n ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th is i n fo r m a t i o n c a m e v i a

G e n e r a l H a n k e l w h o w a s a p p o in t e d a s t h e l e t u s c a l l h i m t h e l ia is o n
o ffic e r b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .

H e s a i d to m e t h a t

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a p p r o a c h e d – a p p r o a c h e d th e C h a i r p e r s o n o f th e J o i n t
S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e o n In t e l li g e n c e Mr C e c il B u r g e s s o n v a r io u s
o c c a s i o n s w i t h o u t n o t if y i n g t h e a c t in g d iv i s io n a l c o m m i s s io n e r w h o w a s

Page 100 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
G e n e r a l M a ts h a ts h e a t th e t i m e .

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s w a s a p p a r e n t ly

a c c o r d i n g to G e n e r a l H a n k e l tr y i n g t o c o n v i n c e Mr B u r g e s s t h a t t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n

that

we

are

c o n d u c ti n g

are

compromising

national

s e c u r i ty. A le t t e r fr o m M r B u r g e s s s t a t i n g t h a t G e n e r a l H a n k e l m u s t b e
r e m o v e d fr o m th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n w a s s e n t to th e a c t i n g d iv is i o n a l
c o m m i s s io n e r o f C I w h i c h w a s G e n e r a l M a t s h a ts h e a n d I h a v e h a d s i g h t
o f t h a t le t t e r.

In f a c t t h e r e w a s m o r e th a n o n e le t t e r r e q u e s ti n g

G e n e r a l M a t s h a ts h e t o t a k e – r e m o v e G e n e r a l H a n k e l fr o m – fr o m
a s s is ti n g u s .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W a s G e n e r a l H a n k e l ’s c o n t in u a ti o n

in t h e m a t t e r a ff e c t e d a t a ll ?
CHAIRPERSON:

One second.

I a s k e d th a t t h e y s w i t c h o ff t h e a ir

c o n d i ti o n e r b e c a u s e I h a v e a li t tl e b i t o f f l u b u t I w a n t t o c h e c k I d o n o t
w a n t to p u n is h p e o p l e i n c a s e i t i s to o h o t a lr e a d y. A r e p e o p le f e e li n g
t h a t t h e – th e y s h o u ld – t h e y s h o u l d s w i tc h i t o n ?

Okay I get an

in d i c a t io n th a t i t i s m a n a g e a b l e . O k a y t h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What happen …

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

What happened

w i t h G e n e r a l H a n k e l ’s i n v o lv e m e n t in th e in v e s t i g a t io n o r c o n t in u e d
in v o lv e m e n t w i t h th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
t e r m in a t e d .

H i s c o n ti n u e d in v o lv e m e n t w a s

H e w a s n o t a l lo w e d t o – to a s s is t m e a n y fu r t h e r a n d h e

w a s tr a n s f e r r e d o u t o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e t o g e t h e r w i t h G e n e r a l
S i n t h u m il e a n d G e n e r a l M a t s h a ts h e a t th e ti m e .

Page 101 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

And then what was the consequence

o f G e n e r a l H a n k e l’s r e m o v a l fr o m t h e in v e s t i g a t io n t o y o u r – t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n s th a t y o u w e r e c o n d u c ti n g ?

H o w d i d it i m p a c t y o u r

in v e s t i g a t io n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I r e c e i v e d d o c u m e n t a ti o n

t h r o u g h G e n e r a l H a n k e l o n r e q u e s t a s p a r t o f t h e a g r e e m e n t th a t w a s
set down in August.

W i t h h is r e m o v a l I d id n o t r e c e i v e a n y fu r t h e r

d o c u m e n t a ti o n f r o m C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e .

I d i d n o t r e c e i v e a n y f u r th e r

a s s is t a n c e fr o m C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e i n r e s p e c t o f t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n .
10

It

stopped there.
REGISTRAR:

Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u to g e t h e r w i t h C o l o n e l Vi l jo e n

o b t a i n e d a d d i ti o n a l s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n t s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d i n r e la t io n t o w h ic h m a t t e r s o r

in v e s t i g a t io n s r a th e r d i d y o u o b ta i n t h e s e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir a s a n y – a s – w h e n y o u

c o n ti n u e w i th a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n i f y o u c a n n o t g e t y o u r d o c u m e n t a t i o n
fr o m t h a t s o u r c e y o u – y o u g o th e n to – t o tr y t o t a k e th e – a n o t h e r
route.
20

W e k n e w t h a t a n i n s t a n c e o r c e r t a i n i n s t a n c e s th a t th e y m a d e

u s e o f p r iv a t e c o m p a n ie s . Th e y c a n n o t – t h o s e c o m p a n i e s c a n n o t u s e
t h e e x c u s e o f c l a s s i fi e d d o c u m e n ta t io n b e c a u s e t h e d o c u m e n ts a r e n o t
c la s s if i e d .

S o w e – w e a p p l ie d fo r s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n t s o n

s o m e o f th o s e c o m p a n ie s . O n e o f th e m w o u ld h a v e – is a c o m p a n y –
w e ll a s p a r t o f t h a t a p p lic a ti o n f o r t h e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e I a ls o a p p li e d
f o r a c c e s s to I T e q u i p m e n t , c o m p u t e r s , h a r d d r iv e s , e tc e t e r a . N o w a t

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e t i m e th e – u n i t th a t d e a l t w it h – w i t h t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n o r t h e u n i t
t h a t I w o u l d a p p r o a c h to a s s is t m e t o – to – t o s e iz e th o s e k in d o f
e q u ip m e n t fr o m a c r i m e s c e n e w a s b a s e d w i t h i n C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d
t h e y w o r k u n d e r t h e d ir e c t c o m m a n d o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s . A n d w e – I
f o u n d is th a t a s p a r t o f t h e p r o c e d u r e t h a t w a s f o ll o w e d w i th in C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e th a t c o m m a n d e r o f t h a t u n i t w h ic h is c a ll e d t h e Te c h n i c a l
S u p p o r t U n i t h a d to i n fo r m G e n e r a l L a z a r u s o f e a c h a n d e v e r y – a s p a r t
o f h i s n o r m a l c o u r s e o f d u t ie s o f e a c h a n d e v e r y s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e
t h a t t h e y a r e g o in g t o t a k e p a r t in .
10

S o I fo u n d m y s e lf in a p o s i ti o n

w h e r e t h e v e r y p e r s o n th a t I a m in v e s ti g a ti n g is n o w b e i n g r e p o r t e d to
in t e r m s o f a s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e th a t I w a n t t o g o a n d d o i n t e r m s o f
p e o p l e th a t h a s b e e n i m p l ic a t e d w i th h i m i n w r o n g d o i n g .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If I c a n th e n t a k e y o u t o p a r a - t a b

fi v e - A n n e x u r e 5 w h ic h s t a r ts a t p a g e 1 - 1 - 3 o f y o u r b u n d le .

Please

id e n t i fy th is d o c u m e n t .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir, I - I d r e w u p t h is d o c u m e n t
in t h e p e r i o d b e t w e e n F e b r u a r y a n d M a r c h - b e g i n n i n g o f M a r c h 2 0 2 0 1 2 . T h i s d o c u m e n t w a s b o r n e o u t o f t h e fa c t t h a t I - a t t h a t t i m e I
w a s q u it e d e s p o n d e n t . I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t w a s g o i n g o n . I c o u l d n o t 20

t h e m a t t e r s w e r e w i t h d r a w n in t h e - i n th e H i g h C o u r t a s w e l l a s t h e
R e g io n a l C o u r t .
T h e r e a s o n s d id n o t m a k e s e n s e t o m e a n d i t s e e m s to m e
t h a t o r i t s e e m e d to m e a t t h e ti m e t h a t w e a r e n o t fi g h ti n g n e c e s s a r i ly
t h e i n d i v i d u a ls t h a t is i n v o l v e d i n t h e c r i m i n a li ty b u t o ffic i a ls w i t h i n w i t h i n G o v e r n m e n t o r w i th i n th e N PA a n d S A P S t o g e t th e s e p e o p le t o

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
b o o k a n d t h a t i s - th a t is o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s w h y I d r e w u p t h i s - th is
r e p o r t a n d a s p a r t o f t h e r e p o r t I t h e n l is te d c e r ta in i n c i d e n ts a s t o
w h a t w e tr i e d t o d o t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h i s m a t t e r s t a y s o n t h e c o u r t r o ll
a n d to g e t i t b a c k o n to t h e c o u r t r o l l.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o i f w e c a n th e n p a u s e h e r e . I t i s

c o r r e c t t h a t y o u w e r e b r o u g h t o n b o a r d t o le a d u p t h e in v e s ti g a t io n in t o
w h a t y o u c a ll t h e Vo s l o o r u s m a t t e r ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

A n d i t is a ls o th e n c o r r e c t t h a t

t h r o u g h y o u r i n v e s ti g a t i o n s i n th e Vo s lo o r u s m a t t e r y o u h a d d is c o v e r e d
a d d it i o n a l in f o r m a t io n w h ic h r e l a te d to t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t a n d
in p a r t ic u l a r t h e lo o ti n g o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e Ac c o u n t?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d y o u o b ta i n e d t h is i n fo r m a t i o n

t h r o u g h s e v e r a l m e m b e r s t h a t y o u i n t e r v ie w e d s o m e o f w h ic h y o u
o b t a i n e d a ffi d a v i ts . O t h e r s o f w h i c h y o u j u s t i n t e r v ie w e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir o f w h ic h th e
m o s t i m p o r t a n t w o u l d t h e n b e a t th e e n d o f th e d a y C o l o n e l N a id o o
w h ic h I i n t e r v i e w e d .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t y o u t h e n

r e c e i v e d fr o m C o l o n e l N a id o o d id t h a t in f o r m a ti o n l e a d t o v a r i o u s
in v e s t i g a t io n s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t - th a t
tr i g g e r e d v a r io u s i n v e s t i g a t io n s r e l a ti n g t o th e i n fo r m a ti o n t h a t h e h a s that he had provided to me at the time.

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I t h e n a s k y o u to tu r n to

E X H I B I T K K 2 . 3 w h ic h is t h e d i a g r a ms b u n d le p a g e 2 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Diagram 2?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e - th e d i a g r a m s b u n d l e , y e s .

Page 2.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Page 2 or diagram 2?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o r r y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Page 2 or diagram 2.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

please?

O k a y.

D i a g r a m 2 , s o r r y. C a n w e p r o j e c t i t

Is th is a f a ir r e p r e s e n t a t i o n o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s th a t

y o u h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d i n a n d l e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t is . Ye s , y e s C h a ir. I t is a f a ir

r e p r e s e n t a ti o n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i s i t c o r r e c t t h e n t h a t t h r o u g h th e
evidence

that

you

have

given

to

t h is

C o m m is s i o n

your

entry

in v e s t i g a t io n in t o t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t w a s t h e M d l u l i/ Vo s l o o r u s
case? As you have termed it to be.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d o u t o f y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s i n t h a t
20

m a t t e r a t l e a s t 11 in v e s t i g a t io n s h a v e e n s u e d ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A r e th e s e th e in v e s ti g a t io n s t h a t y o u
w i ll n o w s p e c i f ic a l ly ta lk t o ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And who has been the main source of

Page 105 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
in f o r m a ti o n f o r t h e s e in v e s ti g a t io n s t h a t y o u h a v e l e d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t w o u l d b e C o l o n e l N a id o o

t o g e th e r w i t h o u r in d e p e n d e n t i n v e s ti g a ti o n s i n t o A t l a n t is M o to r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
back to page 22.

O k a y.

I f w e c a n th e n t u r n t o - t u r n

H a v i n g l o o k e d a t t h a t d i a g r a m n o w w h i c h li s ts 11

in v e s t i g a t io n s i s t h a t a n e x h a u s ti v e lis t o f a l l th e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s th a t
a r o s e o u t o f th e i n f o r m a ti o n y o u o b t a in e d f r o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
e x h a u s t iv e lis t .
10

corroborate

N o C h a ir i t is n o t - i t is n o t a n

I d e a l w i th t h e s e b e c a u s e I h a v e - I w a s a b le t o

either

fu ll y

or

to

a

-

to

a

c e r ta i n

e x te n t

what

C o l o n e l N a i d o o h a s s a id t o m e i n t e r m s o f t h e s e in v e s ti g a t io n s . T h e r e
a r e o t h e r s - o t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s w h ic h I c o u l d n o t c o n d u c t .
I n e v e r r e c e iv e d t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h i c h I - d o c u m e n t a ti o n
w h ic h

I

requested

fr o m

Crime

In t e l li g e n c e

to

f i n a lis e

those

in v e s t i g a t io n s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. O n p a g e 2 3 p a r a g r a p h 6 6 y o u
t a lk s p e c i fi c a ll y t o a n e n g a g e m e n t th a t y o u h a d w i t h G e n e r a l M o th i b a
d u r i n g l a te 2 0 11 o r e a r ly 2 0 11 . C a n y o u p l e a s e e l a b o r a te o n t h a t t o t h e
C h a ir a n d h o w i t c a m e a b o u t t h a t y o u h a d t h is e n g a g e m e n t ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir r i g h t f r o m t h e s t a r t w h e n I w h e n I ju s t - a f te r I s p o k e to - t o C o lo n e l N a id o o I in v o lv e d - in v o lv e d
G e n e r a l H a n k e l in m y d i s c u s s i o n s b e c a u s e I d i d n o t w a n t t o b e s e e n a s
- a s i r r e s p o n s ib l e w h e n w o r k in g w it h t h is k in d - i n t h i s e n v ir o n m e n t. S o
General Hankel was aware of what Naidoo said. He was present during
o n e - d u r i n g s o m e o f th e s e - th e s e b r i e fi n g s t h a t w e h a d .

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
A s p a r t o f t h a t G e n e r a l - G e n e r a l H a n k e l a ls o r e p o r t e d b a c k
t h r o u g h h is s tr u c tu r e s a n d I r e p o r t e d b a c k t h r o u g h m y s t r u c t u r e s
t h r o u g h G e n e r a l D r a m a t a s to w h a t w e h a v e u n c o v e r e d a n d t h e n b a s e d
o n t h a t I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y - b y Br ig a d ie r D e Vi l li e r s O d e n d a a l w h o
w o r k s f o r t h e L e g a l S e r v ic e s D e p a r t m e n t a t - a t t h e N a t io n a l O ff ic e f o r
SAPS.
H e th e n in tr o d u c e d m e t o G e n e r a l M o th i b a w h o w a s a t t h e
ti m e t h e H e a d o f D e t e c ti v e s a n d h e th e n s a i d t o m e t h a t t h e y w a n t t o
c o m e a n d s e e m e s o t h a t I c a n b r ie f th e m in te r m s o f w h a t w e h a v e
10

u n c o v e r e d . T h e y c a m e - t h e y f le w d o w n t o C a p e To w n a n d t h e y - a n d I
w e n t t o s e e th e m a n d I i n f o r m e d t h e m a b o u t th e i n f o r m a t io n t h a t I
r e c e i v e d fr o m - fr o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o a n d - a n d th e in f o r m a ti o n t h a t I
r e c e i v e d f r o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o m a in ly - m a i n l y c o n c e r n s t h e P r o v i n c e s
o f K w a Z u l u - N a ta l , G a u t e n g a n d th e W e s t e r n C a p e .
A d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n t h a t t h e ( i n d is ti n c t ) i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n to
t h o s e a l le g a ti o n s w o u l d b e d e a l t w i t h b y G e n e r a l M o t h i b a a n d h e n c e
t h e r e a s o n w h y h e c a m e t o s e e m e i n o r d e r to i n fo r m a n d b r ie f - d e b r i e f
h i m o n in te r m s o f w h a t w a s s a i d t o m e a n d I w a s t h e n l a t e r i n f o r m e d
that

20

Br ig a d i e r S i m o n M a d o n s e l a

appointed

to

do

the

-

to

and

conduct

C a p t a i n R a m e s h H ir a l e l
a

d is c i p l in a r y

and

were

criminal

in v e s t i g a t io n s w h i c h r e l a te t o K w a Z u l u - N a t a l a n d th a t w a s - I a s k e d f o r
t h a t b e c a u s e I w a s n o t i n a p o s i ti o n t o g o t o K w a Zu l u - N a t a l a ls o a n d
in v e s t i g a t e t h e r e w h e n I a m b u s y in G a u t e n g . S o t h a t is h o w th a t c a m e
a b o u t a n d w h y G e n e r a l M o t h ib a c a m e to s e e m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And

Page 107 of 150

so

then

it

was

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
B r i g a d ie r S i m o n M a d o n s e la a n d C a p ta i n R a m e s h H ir a l e l w h o s e f o c u s
a r e a w a s to a d d r e s s m a tt e r s w i th in t h e K w a Zu l u - N a t a l R e g io n ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is c o r r e c t to g e t h e r w i t h t h e t h e d i s c i p li n a r y m a t te r s t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d to b e i n s ti t u te d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
understand.

And

that

just

to

make

sure

I

W h e n w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t m a t t e r s w i t h i n K w a Z u lu - N a t a l

w e a r e t a lk in g a b o u t a s y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d t h e d i s c ip li n a r y m a t t e r s
t h a t w e r e w i th in t h a t r e g io n . I n a d d i ti o n t o a n y i n v e s ti g a ti o n s r e la t in g
t o t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t a r i s i n g o u t o f th a t r e g io n .
10

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . I t - i t
a r o s e fr o m t h e i n fo r m a t i o n g i v e n to m e b y - b y C o lo n e l N a i d o o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Can

we

now

address

th e

in v e s t i g a t io n s o n e b y o n e ? T h e fir s t o n e b e i n g a s y o u h a v e t e r m e d i t :
“One

Stop

Tr a v e l

and

To u r s

Durban

Fli g h t

A r r a n g e m e n t s b e tw e e n l a t e 2 0 0 9 t o O c t o b e r 2 0 11 . ”
W h a t i s i m p o r ta n t is f o r u s a s t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o u n d e r s t a n d
what

you

d id

w i th

th e

information

that

you

received

fr o m

C o l o n e l N a i d o o a n d w h a t t h e o u t c o m e w a s o f t h e s p e c i f ic in v e s ti g a t io n
t h a t y o u l e d i n r e l a ti o n t o e a c h m a t t e r a n d w i t h t h a t i n m in d c a n I a s k
20

y o u t o p le a s e c la r i fy to t h e C h a ir a s t o w h a t C o l o n e l N a i d o o t o l d y o u i n
r e l a ti o n t o t h is in v e s t i g a t io n .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I w il l d o s o C h a ir. W h e n it c o m e s
t o t h e fir s t p a r t o f th is n a r r a ti v e o r o f m y a ffi d a v it i t b a s ic a l ly r e l a te s t o
w h a t N a i d o o - C o lo n e l N a i d o o h a s to l d m e . W h a t h e h a s i n fo r m e d m e
is t h a t o n s e v e r a l o c c a s io n s h e h a d t o a r r a n g e f o r G e n e r a l M d l u li a n d

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
h is w i f e M s Ly o n s a n d tw o c h il d r e n t o fl y u p to - t o J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d
b a c k t o C a p e To w n a n d th e s e v i s i ts w e r e p r i v a t e in n a t u r e a n d t h e y
w e r e p a i d f o r b y t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t.
T h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e - S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t m a y b e u t il is e d
t o p a y a ir ti c k e t s in a s f a r a s i t is fo r a g e n t s a n d i n fo r m e r s o n o ff ic i a l
C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e b u s i n e s s b u t n o t f o r p r i v a t e m a t te r s .

Fl i g h ts f o r

G e n e r a l M d l u l i w e r e a l s o p a id o u t o f t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t a n d
t h e s e fl i g h ts w e r e a ls o p r iv a te in n a t u r e a c c o r d i n g t o C o l o n e l N a i d o o .
G e n e r a l M d l u l i w a s n o t a ll o w e d t o - w a s n o t a l lo w e d to t r a v e l
10

u til is in g S S A f u n d s a s h i s fl ig h t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n f in a n c e d t h r o u g h t h e
S - S o u t h A f r ic a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e o p e n b u d g e t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O n t h a t - o n t h a t p o i n t y o u s a y it

o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n fi n a n c e d t h r o u g h th e S A P S o p e n b u d g e t b u t y o u
a ls o s a y t h a t it n e e d e d t o h a v e o n ly b e e n f o r o ff ic ia l b u s i n e s s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e r e i s - t h e r e is a …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

U n d e r - u n d e r w h a t c i r c u ms t a n c e s

c a n S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t f u n d s b e u s e d to fu n d a ir tr a v e l f o r i ts
members?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Hm.
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e c la r i fy.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir f o r i n s t a n c e i f a n a g e n t h a s
- h a s t o - t h e a g e n t is b a s e d in C a p e To w n .

H e h a s t o c o m e u p to

J o h a n n e s b u r g t o a t t e n d a m e e t in g w i t h - w i t h a s o u r c e o f h is o r t o
a tt e n d a m e e ti n g w it h a c r i m e g r o u p i n g o r w h a t e v e r th e c a s e m a y b e .
T h a t is - t h a t is o ffi c i a l in n a tu r e .

T h is - h e w il l g e t - f u n d s w il l b e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w i t h d r a w n fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t a n d a n a i r ti c k e t w i ll b e
bought.
H e w o u ld fly d o w n . H e w i ll g o b a c k u p - b a c k d o w n t o C a p e
To w n a n d t h a t c o s t is b o r n e b y t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t .

It a ls o

f o ll o w s t h a t y o u w il l fi n d t h a t t h e r e is a m e m o w i t h th e i n f o r m a ti o n a f t e r
s u c h a tr ip s ta t in g w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d w h a t th e in f o r m a t io n w a s
t h a t w a s r e tr ie v e d d u r i n g th a t - d u r i n g t h a t e n g a g e m e n t . S o i n th a t - i n
t h a t i n s t a n c e i t h a s h a p p e n e d b e fo r e a n d it w i ll h a p p e n a g a in b e c a u s e
t h e r e is n o t h in g w r o n g w i th t h a t b u t it is n o t th e r e f o r th e u ti li s a t io n o f
10

p r i v a t e tr i p s .
W h e n i t c o m e s t o G e n e r a l M d lu li a s t h e H e a d o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e h e is n o t a - h e is a p u b l ic f i g u r e . H e is n o t a n a g e n t a n d
as such he must make use of the open account.

H e c a n n o t fly t o

D u r b a n a n d s t a te th a t i t is f o r a - i t is f o r - it i s a c o v e r t o p e r a ti o n
b e c a u s e h e is a p u b li c f i g u r e . H e i s n o t .
S o i t w o u l d n o t - it w o u l d n o t a s s i s t h i m t h a t - t h a t h e f li e s
with - on the Secret Service Account.

W i th th a t I a m n o t s a y i n g h e

c a n n o t . I a m ju s t s a y i n g i t is - it is n o t t h e n o r m a n d ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t a d v is a b l e ? I t i s n o t a d v is a b l e ?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o t a d v i s a b le . Ye s , y e s C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B e c a u s e h e h a s g o t o th e r m e a n s

t o p a y fo r t h a t - f o r t h a t o ffic i a l tr i p .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e r e t h e r e a n y o t h e r in d iv i d u a ls w h o
b e n e fi t te d fr o m a ir tr a v e l a c c o r d in g to C o l o n e l N a id o o ?

Page 110 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

According

G e n e r a l L a z a r u s b e n e f i tt e d fr o m - fr o m t h e a ir tr a v e l .

C o l o n e l N a id o o
T h e n a p a s to r

fr o m t h e - fr o m t h e A fr ic a n D r e a m C e n tr e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I j u s t c o r r e c t th a t ?

We have

b e e n i n fo r m e d t h a t it is n o t th e A fr ic a n D r e a m C e n tr e b u t t h e A f r ic a n
D r e a m F a m i ly C h u r c h . P le a s e c o n ti n u e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a b o u t is t h a t ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

I t is t h e l a s t li n e o n p a g e 2 3 in

p a r a g r a p h 6 8 . T h e C o m m i s s io n i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h a t is th e c o r r e c t n a m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e C o m m is s i o n r e c e i v e d a l e t t e r

fr o m t h e m w h ic h i n f o r m e d t h a t i t is A f r i c a n D r e a m F a m i ly C h u r c h a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o t A fr ic a n D r e a m C e n tr e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o g e t th a t c o r r e c t e d in t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : As i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

D o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t A fr ic a n

D r e a m F a m i ly C h u r c h ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I d o k n o w t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s is
a - h e i s a m e m b e r o f t h a t s p e c i fic c h u r c h .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B u t o n c e a g a i n t h is i s in f o r m a t io n

t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m C o l o n e l N a id o o ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s .

Page 111 of 150

I r e c e i v e d th a t i n f o r m a ti o n

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
fr o m h i m a n d I w a s a b le t o c o n f ir m it a t a l a te r s t a g e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

What was the process that you

u n d e r s t o o d in h o w fl i g h t to a c c o m m o d a t io n b o o k in g s w e r e m a d e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Chair according to Colonel Naidoo
h e w o u l d i n r e s p e c t o f th e b o o k i n g s t h a t h e m a d e w h e n h e d e a lt w it h
f a m ily m e m b e r s o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i h e w o u l d p h o n e t h e c o n s u l t a n t a t a le t u s c a l l i t t h e s a t e l li t e o ffic e o f O n e S t o p Tr a v e l a n d To u r s w h ic h i s
c a l l e d W e s tv i ll e Tr a v e l . H e w o u l d s p e a k t o o n e M a h e s h P a r e k h .
M r P a r e k h w o u ld - w o u l d t h e n m a k e a b o o k i n g o n h i s b e h a lf
10

in r e s p e c t o f t h e in d iv i d u a l t h a t w a n ts t o fl y.

H e w o u ld m a k e t h a t

b o o k i n g t h r o u g h t h e p a r e n t c o m p a n y w h ic h is O n e S t o p Tr a v e l a n d
To u r s . T h e b o o k in g w o u l d b e m a d e . Th e - t h e t ic k e t w il l b e b o u g h t a n d
a n in v o ic e w o u ld b e s e n t to W e s tv ill e Tr a v e l .

W e s t v i ll e Tr a v e l a n d

t h e r e o n v i a M r P a r e k h w o u l d th e n c r e a t e h is o w n i n v o ic e w h ic h h e
w o u ld t h e n fo r w a r d to C o m p a n y X .
C o m p a n y X w o u l d t h e n p a y O n e S t o p Tr a v e l a n d To u r s i n t o
t h e ir a c c o u n t . T h e - w h a t w e h a v e - w h e n w e fo u n d t h e - t h e v a r i o u s
in v o ic e s w e w e r e a b le to e s ta b l is h t h a t t h e r e w a s a l o t o f la r g e o v e r
in v o ic i n g o f C o m p a n y X a s p a r t o f t h is w h o l e p r o c e s s t o c r e a t e a c r e d it
20

o n t h e c o m p a n y a c c o u n t w i t h i n th e b o o k s o f O n e S t o p Tr a v e l a n d To u r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o h a v i n g r e c e iv e d t h i s i n fo r m a ti o n

fr o m C o lo n e l N a i d o o w h a t w a s t h e o u t c o m e o f y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s i n t o
s u c h i n f o r m a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

B a s e d o n h i s i n fo r m a ti o n w e - w e

a g a in a p p li e d f o r a s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n t w h i c h w a s - w h ic h w a s

Page 112 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
g iv e n t o u s .

I a l s o r e c e iv e d r e m i t ta n c e a n d li c e n c e - r e mi t t a n c e

a d v is e s fr o m G e n e r a l H a n k e l r e l a ti n g t o p a y m e n t fr o m C o m p a n y X t o
O n e S t o p Tr a v e l a n d To u r s a n d - a n d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e g e n e r a l l e d g e r
a c c o u n t fr o m C o m p a n y X m o r e th a n a m i lli o n R a n d h a s b e e n p a i d t o
O n e S t o p Tr a v e l a n d To u r s s i n c e - a s f r o m M a r c h 2 0 1 0 u p u n t il t h e d a t e
t h a t w e d i d t h e s e a r c h a n d s e i z u r e w h i c h w a s i n - I th i n k 1 N o v e m b e r o r
v e r y - o n th e 2 5 t h - t h e 2 1 s t - 2 5 N o v e m b e r 2 0 - a g n o t N o v e m b e r,
O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
S o d u r i n g t h a t y e a r a n d s i x m o n t h s m o r e t h a n a m i ll io n R a n d
10

h a s b e e n p a i d t o O n e S t o p Tr a v e l a n d To u r s in t e r m s o f a ir ti c k e ts .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B u t w e r e y o u a b le t o e s t a b l is h

w h e t h e r o r n o t a ll o f t h a t f u n d in g w a s p a r t o f a s c h e m e w h ic h o u g h t n o t
to have taken place?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir I w a s .

In b e t w e e n w e

d i d f in d t h a t a g e n ts d i d a c t u a ll y tr a v e l a n d - b u t t h e m a j o r i ty o f t h e
f u n d i n g d id n o t g o - w a s n o t u s e d b y a g e n ts i n th e o ffic ia l c a p a c i ty o r I
w o u ld a s s u m e t h a t w h e n a n a g e n t fl i e s i t w i ll b e w i th i n h is o ffic ia l
c a p a c i ty.
S o I d i d n o t ta k e th a t a n y f u r th e r b u t w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t
20

f a m ily m e m b e r s a n d - a n d fr i e n d s t h a t - t h a t m a d e u s e o f th is a c c o u n t
t o fly. I n f a c t M r P a r e k h a ls o s a w i t f i t to f ly h is o w n fa m i ly a n d f r i e n d s
t o v a r i o u s p a r ts o f t h e c o u n tr y p a i d f o r b y t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e A c c o u n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So

on

the

one

hand

your

in v e s t i g a t io n w a s s o u r c e d fr o m r e m i t ta n c e a d v i s e s t h a t y o u r e c e iv e d
fr o m G e n e r a l H a n k e l ?

Page 113 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: That is correct.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O n t h e o th e r h a n d y o u a ls o o b ta i n e d
a s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w a r r a n t o n 2 5 O c t o b e r 2 0 11 ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r a n d - a n d

b a s e d o n - a n d - a n d d u r i n g th a t s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e w e w e r e a b le t o t o s e i z e th e d o c u m e n ts r e la t in g t o t h e a c c o u n t w i th th e i n v o ic e s a n d a n d s o f o r t h fr o m W e s tv il le Tr a v e l a s w e l l a s O n e S t o p Tr a v e l a n d
To u r s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P l e a s e g iv e a li t tl e b i t m o r e d e t a il i n
10

r e l a ti o n t o w h a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e e x e c u ti o n o f s u c h s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e
w a r r a n t o b t a i n e d o n 2 5 O c t o b e r 2 0 11 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir w h e n - w h e n I a r r iv e d th e r e
a n d G e n e r a l H a n k e l w a s w i th m e a n d a fe w o t h e r m e m b e r s . M r P a r e k h
w a s w a it i n g f o r m e i n - i n th e o ffic e a n d n e x t t o h i m w a s a b u n d l e o f
d o c u m e n ts a n d h e s a id to m e t h a t h e w a s t o ld to p r e p a r e t h e s e
d o c u m e n ts f o r m e .

N o w w e d i d n o t te ll a n y o n e t h a t w e a r e c o m i n g

t h r o u g h o r t h a t w e a r e p l a n n i n g to s e a r c h t h is - t h i s s p e c i fi c p r e m is e s .
H e h a d c o p y f o r h i m s e l f a n d c o p y fo r m e a v a il a b l e a n d I - I
t h e n a s k e d h i m y o u k n o w w h o in f o r m e d h i m th a t I w a s g o in g t o s e a r c h
20

t h e p r e m is e s a n d h i s a n s w e r t o m e w a s F M 0 8 h a d in f o r m e d h i m . A t a
la t e r s t a g e I o b t a i n e d a n a ff id a v i t f r o m M r P a r e k h . H e s a y s t h a t a n d I
a m q u o ti n g fr o m h is a ffi d a v i t :
“ B e t w e e n th e 1 9 t h a n d 2 0 O c t o b e r 2 0 11 I r e c e iv e d a
c a l l fr o m F M 0 8 .

H e t o ld m e t h a t p e r s o n n e l fr o m

J o h a n n e s b u r g o r P r e t o r ia w o u ld b e c o m i n g d o w n to

Page 114 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
D u r b a n to p i c k u p t h e i n v o ic e s fr o m C o m p a n y X a n d
k e e p th e m - a n d k e e p t h e m r e a d y. H e a l s o t o l d m e
t o a d d t h e n a m e o f t h e tr a v e ll e r s t o t h e i n v o ic e s
b e f o r e I p r i n t i t. I h a d t o g iv e t h e s e i n v o i c e s t o th e
p e r s o n n e l fr o m J o h a n n e s b u r g o r P r e t o r i a .

FM08

a ls o r e q u e s t e d m e n o t t o r e fl e c t th e n a m e s o f t h e
f o ll o w i n g p a s s e n g e r s o n t h e in v o ic e s . ”
And

in

th a t

sense

he

r e f le c ts

then

to

S e n ti m u le ( ? ) M a s h u lu ( ? ) , G a v i n L a z a r u s , S a n d r a L a z a r u s .
10

FM01
He then

s t a te s f u r th e r h e d id n o t g e t r o u n d t o d o i n g t h a t a n d in - in o t h e r w o r d s
h e d i d n o t - h e d i d n o t t a k e i t - h e d i d n o t t a k e i t o u t fr o m t h e i n v o ic e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t w a s y o u r a s s e s s m e n t a ft e r

r e c o n c i li n g t h e d o c u m e n ts y o u r e c e i v e d th r o u g h t h e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e
w a r r a n t w it h t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n o r r e mi t t a n c e a d v is e s t h a t y o u r e c e i v e d
fr o m G e n e r a l H a n k e l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Fi n a n c i a lly i t is t h e f o ll o w i n g :

I

w a s a b le t o e s ta b lis h t h a t c h e q u e p a y m e n ts fr o m C o m p a n y X t o O n e
S t o p Tr a v e l a n d To u r s b e tw e e n A p r i l 2 0 1 0 a n d 2 5 O c t o b e r a m o u n te d t o
R 1 1 6 8 5 0 0 , 3 1 mi ll i o n - R 1 1 6 8 5 0 0 , 3 1 .
20

worksheet

and

then

I

was

a b le

to

T h a t w a s a s p e r t h e ir

e s t a b li s h

th a t

in

terms

of

G e n e r a l M d l u l i , G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d M r M a r i m u t h u r e g a r d i n g s e r v ic e s
r e n d e r e d f o r t h e ir a ir tr a v e l .
G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d h i s f a m i ly i t w a s R 3 0 6 9 0 9 ,0 0 - R 9 1 9 , 0 0 .
G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d h is fa m i ly w a s R 1 6 0 1 2 4 , 0 0 a n d M r M a r i m u th u
was R215 131,00.

Th a t is a to t a l o f R 6 8 2 1 7 4 , 0 0 w h i c h i s m o r e th a n

Page 115 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
h a l f t h e t o t a l a m o u n t t h a t w a s p a i d to - p a i d f r o m - f r o m C o m p a n y X .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And

th a t

was

fo r

the

period

A p r il 2 0 1 0 to 2 5 O c to b e r 2 0 11 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W a s t h e r e a n y t h i n g e ls e th a t y o u

e s t a b li s h e d t h r o u g h th a t r e c o n c i li a ti o n p r o c e s s r e la t in g to id e n ti ti e s o f
passengers?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s C h a ir. I w a s a b l e t o e s t a b li s h
t h a t o n a t le a s t o n e o c c a s i o n t h e c h il d r e n o f G e n e r a l M d l u l i d i d a c t u a ll y
10

fl y.

T h e a c t u a l p a s s e n g e r s w a s th e c h il d r e n a n d t h e n l o o k i n g a t t h e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w h ic h I r e c e iv e d th e r e m i t ta n c e
a d v is e s a n d t h e i n v o ic e s t h a t w e r e s u b m i t t e d t o t h e m .
A t t a c h e d t o t h a t b u n d l e o f d o c u m e n t s t h e r e is a k e y w h ic h I
c a l l k e y.

T h e k e y w o u ld th e n - w o u ld b e f il l e d i n b y F M 0 8 .

The key

w o u ld in f o r m t h e A u d i t o r - G e n e r a l t h a t a s p e c i fi c i n v o ic e w h ic h is
n a m e l e s s i n t e r m s o f a p a s s e n g e r w a s a c t u a lly u s e d fo r t h a t a g e n t o r
t h a t a g e n t a n d g iv i n g t h e a g e n t n u m b e r.
N o w i n r e s p e c t o f t h e c h il d r e n th e - t h e m is r e p r e s e n t a ti o n
t h a t w a s m a d e to th e e m p l o y e r i s t h e f a c t t h a t th e c h i ld r e n fl e w a s - a s
20

a g e n ts . A s if t h e y w e r e a g e n ts . I t w a s c l a i m e d a s i f i t w a s a g e n ts t h a t
fl e w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e r e y o u a b l e t o e s t a b li s h w h o

a u t h o r i s e d p a y m e n t s f o r t h e s e - a ir tr a v e l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o g e t a ll

t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n b e c a u s e w e w e r e i n t h e m i d d le o f g e t ti n g t h a t

Page 116 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h e n m y - w h e n G e n e r a l H a n k e l w a s t r a n s f e r r e d . S o I
d i d n o t r e c e iv e e v e r y t h i n g b u t t h e o n e s I d o h a v e w a s s ig n e d b y - b y
General Lazarus …
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Were …?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : A s th e C F O o f th e S S A F u n d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e r e t h e r e a n y o th e r p o lic e o ff ic i a l s
w h o b e n e fi t te d fr o m a ir tr a v e l t h r o u g h th is p a r t ic u l a r o r g a n is a t i o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s

C h a ir.

In

th is

regard

G e n e r a l S e n t i m u l e a n d h e r h u s b a n d b e n e f it t e d t h r o u g h t h a t a s w e ll a s
10

G e n e r a l M u c h a c h i ( ? ) b e n e fi t te d t h r o u g h t h a t . H o w e v e r th e r e is a - a n
e x p l a n a t io n

given

to them.

Th e y

t e s t if i e d

s u b s e q u e n tl y i n

th e

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g o f M r L a z a r u s a n d t h e y e x p l a i n e d w h a t h a d
h a p p e n e d th e r e w h ic h I w il l i n f o r m t h e - t h e C o m m is s i o n l a t e r C o m m i s s i o n la t e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P le a s e d o s o n o w.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

O k a y. A c c o r d i n g t o b o th G e n e r a l

S e n ti m u le a s w e l l a s G e n e r a l M u c h a c h i t h e y r e c e iv e d c a l ls fr o m
M r M a r i m u t h u i n v i t in g t h e m t o c o m e a n d v is i t o r a t t e n d c h u r c h i n
KwaZulu-Natal. It happened on more than one occasion and in terms of
20

G e n e r a l S e n t i m u l e s h e w e n t t h e r e w i th h e r h u s b a n d o n m o r e t h a n
o c c a s i o n a n d G e n e r a l M u c h a c h i I t h i n k o n c e w i th h i s f a m il y.
H i s w i f e a n d k id a n d t h e y w e r e u n d e r th e i m p r e s s i o n a n d t h a t
i m p r e s s io n a c c o r d i n g t o h i m w a s - w a s g i v e n t o t h e m b y Mr M a r i m u t h u
t h a t th e c h u r c h a r e p a y i n g fo r t h e s e e x p e n s e s a n d w h e n t h e y - w h e n
t h e y d o g o o v e r i t w il l b e - d o g o t o D u r b a n it w i ll b e o n t h e e x p e n s e o f

Page 117 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
- o n t h e a c c o u n t o f t h e c h u r c h a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s d id n o t i n f o r m t h e m
t h a t a c t u a l ly th e - t h a t a c tu a lly th a t - t h a t t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t
paid for those actual trips.
S o th e y w e r e a s I e x p l a i n e d e a r li e r th e y w e r e p la c e d i n a
p o s i ti o n w h e r e t h e s e t h i n g s c o u ld b e u s e d a g a in s t t h e m a t a l a t e r s ta g e
w i t h o u t th e ir k n o w le d g e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
General Mdluli

for

the

period

Yo u
o f A p r il

m e n t io n e d
2010

to

e a r li e r

that

2 5 O c to b e r 2 0 11

b e n e fi t te d i n t h e s u m o f R 3 0 6 9 1 9 , 0 0 a n d t h a t is n o t o n l y f o r
10

G e n e r a l M d l u l i b u t h is f a mi ly t o o w h ic h a m o u n t e d …
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : To m o r e th a n h a l f o f t h e t o ta l b u d g e t
f o r t h a t p e r io d ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I f y o u - if

y o u a d d a ll t h r e e o f t h e m to g e th e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D i d G e n e r a l M d lu li h a v e a c c e s s … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l is i t - is it m o r e t h a n h a l f ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : J a . I t i s m o r e t h a n h a l f C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm?
20

M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t is m o r e th a n h a lf .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e fi g u r e s o n p a g e 2 6 ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O o p s s o r r y. S o r r y. M y m is t a k e .
CHAIRPERSON: Or am I ahead of you?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

No, no.

are in fact correct.

Page 118 of 150

No, no.

I n fa c t C h a ir y o u

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: The total amount of 600 …
CHAIRPERSON: 306 - R306 000,00 are you saying is about 50 percent
of 682?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

No.

I n f a c t C h a ir.

m a d e t h e m is t a k e a n d t h a n k y o u f o r c o r r e c ti n g m e .

I made the - I
I t is a c t u a l ly t h e

t o t a lly a m o u n t o f 6 8 2 w h ic h i s i n e x c e s s o f h a lf o f t h e t o t a l a m o u n t . S o
I retract.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t . I j u s t w a n t to m a k e s u r e I …
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t m is u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I r e tr a c t t h a t s t a te m e n t a n d m y -

w h a t I w o u l d li k e t o c o n f ir m is th a t G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d h is f a m il y
b e n e fi t te d t o t h e v a l u e o f R 3 0 6 9 1 9 , 0 0 ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o m y q u e s ti o n to y o u w h ic h is

n o w h o p e f u l ly c o r r e c t ly s t a te d is d i d G e n e r a l M d lu li a ls o h a v e a c c e s s to
a n y o t h e r f u n d s f o r tr a v e l a r r a n g e m e n ts ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A s s ta t e d i n
20

m y a ffi d a v i t. H e a ls o m a d e u s e o f t h e n o r ma l S A P S b u d g e t . In o t h e r
w o r d s t h e o p e n a c c o u n t f o r t r a v e ll in g a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r o ff ic ia l - o ff ic ia l
tr a v e l a n d h e p a i d - i n t h i s r e g a r d m o r e t h a n R 7 0 0 0 0 0 , 0 0 w a s p a i d
t o w a r d s h i s a ir t r a v e l d u r in g th e p e r i o d J u l y 2 0 0 9 to M a r c h 2 0 11 .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w t h e tr a v e l t h a t h e p a id f o r u n d e r th e o p e n

a c c o u n t d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h o s e w e r e a ll l e g i ti m a t e o ffic i a l tr a v e ls ?

Page 119 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I n r e s p e c t o f th e o p e n a c c o u n t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , ja .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a i r I c a n o n ly - I c a n o n ly d e a l
w i t h w h a t is o n fa c e v a l u e in te r m s o f t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n p r e s e n te d t o
m e fr o m - fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t a p p e a r e d t o b e ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : Ye s a n d i t - a n d i t l o o k s a s …
CHAIRPERSON: Looks?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t w a s o ffic ia l tr a v e l …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : In te r m s o f t h e o p e n a c c o u n t. Ye s
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o - s o w o u ld o n e b e a b l e t o s a y f o r o ffi c i a l

tr a v e l li n g h e u s e d th e o p e n a c c o u n t a n d t h e n f o r tr a v e ll i n g t h a t w a s n o t
a u t h o r i s e d o r w a s n o t l a w f u l th e n h e u s e d t h e o t h e r o n e o r it is d i ffi c u l t
to say?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : C h a ir a s I s a i d I m e a n it i s - it is
n o t n o r m a l p r o c e d u r e t o u s e t h i s a c c o u n t fo r y o u r o w n tr a v e l li n g
e s p e c i a l ly t h e p o s i t io n th a t h e h e l d - h e h o ld s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : W h a t I c a n s a y is t h a t - j a , w h e n I
t a lk a b o u t t h e fa m i ly i t d o e s n o t o n l y i n c l u d e h i s k i d s . I t a ls o i n c l u d e s
h is e x - w i fe t o g e t h e r w it h h is b r o th e r a n d h i s s is t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

So

Page 120 of 150

it

is

-

under

th o s e

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
c ir c u m s ta n c e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o u l d th a t b e - c o u l d t h a t b e - c o u l d th a t h a v e b e e n
la w fu l ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o C h a ir. I t c a n n o t b e l a w fu l .
CHAIRPERSON: Could not have been lawful?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h e y a r e n o t p o l ic e o ff ic ia ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: Not all of them. I am talking about
t h e c h il d r e n a n d I th in k t h e b r o t h e r. T h e y a r e n o t p o l ic e o ff ic ia ls …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d …
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE: And …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d i n t e r m s o f t h e r e g u l a ti o n s o r p o lic i e s o r

c o n d i ti o n s u n d e r w h i c h t h a t a c c o u n t c o u l d b e u s e d i s i t c o n t e m p la t e d
t h a t i t c o u l d b e u s e d f o r fa m i ly m e m b e r s ?
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : N o C h a ir. I t i s n o t …
CHAIRPERSON: No.
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : I t is n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is fo r a s p e c i f ic p u r p o s e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
20

I t is f o r s p e c i f ic p u r p o s e s o n l y.

Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d th a t is - t h a t i s r e a ll y f o r - fo r a g e n ts w h o s e

id e n t i fy m u s t n o t b e k n o w n p u b li c a ll y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A g e n ts o r

in f o r m a n ts fo r t h a t m a t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , j a , ja . Th a t is - t h a t is w h y y o u s a y it c o u l d n o t

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
b e h i m b e c a u s e h e w a s p u b l ic .
M R K O B U S D E M E Y E R R O E L O F S E : T h a t is - t h a t is w h a t I a m s a y i n g .
Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

D id

your

i n v e s t ig a t io n s

reveal

a n y th in g i n r e l a ti o n to t h e A fr ic a n D r e a m F a m i ly C h u r c h a n d t h e
a l le g a ti o n s o f C o l o n e l N a i d o o t h a t c e r t a i n p a s to r s h a d b e n e fi t t e d f r o m
fl ig h ts a n d a c c o m m o d a t io n p a id f o r b y t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Ye s C h a ir.

I was - I do not

m e n ti o n t h e n a m e s h e r e b u t I w a s - in te r m s o f th e a c tu a l p a s s e n g e r s I
was privy to the names and there were quite a few pastors and clergy
t h a t fl e w o n th a t a c c o u n t o r th a t fl e w a n d w h ic h - w h ic h e x p e n s e s w e r e
p a i d f o r fr o m t h e S S A a c c o u n t a n d it - i t n o r m a l ly fo ll o w s w i th
M r L a z a r u s g o i n g fr o m - M r L a z a r u s g o in g fr o m e i t h e r D u r b a n b a c k t o
Jo’burg - Johannesburg or coming back.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Wa s a n y d is c ip li n a r y a c t i o n ta k e n

a g a in s t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s in r e la t io n to t h e s e a ll e g a t io n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir.

In respect of this

s p e c i f ic a ll e g a ti o n t h e r e w e r e a n d h e w a s a s f a r - h e w a s f o u n d g u i l ty
20

o f m i s c o n d u c t i n r e s p e c t o f G e n e r a l S e n ti m u le a n d G e n e r a l M u c h a c h i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms S e p t e m b e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir i f I m a y r e q u e s t …
CHAIRPERSON: What is happening?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M a y I r e q u e s t y o u r i n d u lg e n c e a n d

r e q u e s t a f iv e m in u t e a d j o u r n m e n t ?

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
CHAIRPERSON: Why?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In o r d e r t o a d d r e s s c e r t a i n m a tt e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . W e w il l a d j o u r n f o r fiv e m i n u t e s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s p r o c e e d p l e a s e .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e a r e i n d e b t e d to y o u f o r t h e

in d u l g e n c e C h a ir. M r R o e lo fs e t h e n e x t i n v e s t ig a ti o n th a t y o u t a lk t o is
a t p a g e 2 6 o f y o u r a ff i d a v i t a n d it i s t it l e d J o e M a r k N e w W o r ld N o t ic e
P r o c u r e m e n t o f Ve h ic l e s .

B e f o r e y o u g e t in t o t h e d e ta il o f th is

p a r t ic u l a r i n v e s ti g a t i o n d o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s is t o
a c q u ir e v e h ic le s w it h in C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir p e r s o n i t is e s s e n t i a l ly t h e

same as each, as a normal procurement within the open account, with
t h e d i ff e r e n c e th a t th e y c a n s o u r c e s p e c i f ic v e h i c l e s , fo r s p e c i fi c
r e q u ir e m e n t s , s o it is , th e r e m u s t b e t h e , t h e r e m u s t b e a p r o p e r
20

m o t iv a t i o n fo r th e p u r c h a s e o f a v e h ic le a n d b a s e d o n t h a t m o ti v a t io n
a n d t h e u s e o f t h a t v e h ic le t h e n t h e v e h ic l e c a n b e p u r c h a s e d .

The

d i ff e r e n c e i s t h a t d o n o t n e c e s s a r ily, t h e y d o n ’ t g o o u t o n t e n d e r
b e c a u s e t h e y b u y a v e h ic l e o n , t h e y b u y v e h ic l e s b a s i c a ll y o n a – a s
t h e n e e d a r is e s t h e y w o u ld b u y a v e h ic l e fo r a s p e c i f ic p u r p o s e , b u t
t h e y a ls o d o b u y b u lk in a s e n s e t h a t t h e y w o u ld e s t i m a te t h a t t h e y

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w o u ld n e e d s a y 1 5 o r 2 0 v e h ic le s f o r th a t s p e c i fi c y e a r f o r th e i r
m e m b e r s a n d t h a t c a n a ls o h a p p e n .
S o i t is a p r o c e s s t h a t t h e y fo ll o w w i t h t h e p r o p e r p a p e r w o r k
t h a t n e e d s to b e i n p la c e f o r th a t a c q u is i t io n t o ta k e p l a c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Which department within Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e w o u l d b e ta s k e d w i t h th e p r o c u r e m e n t o f m o to r v e h i c l e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t w i ll b e t h e S S A a c c o u n t o r

t h e u n i t w i t h i n t h e S S A , t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t , w h ic h f a ll d ir e c t ly
under General Lazarus.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d in p a r ti c u la r to w h a t e x t e n t

w o u ld S u p p ly C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t b e in v o lv e d in t h i s p r o c e s s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e t h e ir – t h e y

h a v e a u n i t w i t h i n t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t w h i c h i s i n v o lv e d i n t h e
s u p p ly c h a i n m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s o f a c q u ir i n g t h e s e v e h ic l e s o f w h ic h
C o l o n e l B a r n a r d p l a y s a n in t e g r a l r o l e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is t h e r e a p a r t ic u l a r r e g is t e r t h a t is

k e p t i n r e la t io n t o v e h ic l e s p u r c h a s e d b y C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir w h e n – it w o r k s l ik e a n y

a s s e t r e g i s te r, fo r a n y S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t , t h e y j u s t c a l l it t h e S e c r e t
20

R e g is te r i f I a m n o t m i s ta k e n , t h e y u s e t h e a b b r e v i a ti o n S R , s o y o u
w o u ld h a v e a S R v e h ic l e , S R f u r n i tu r e , t h o s e – a l l t h o s e i t e m s w o u ld
g e t a n u m b e r, S R 5 0 , S R 5 1 w h a t e v e r th e c a s e m a y b e a n d t h a t i s
a tt a c h e d t o t h a t s p e c if ic v e h i c l e a s p r o o f o f p u r c h a s e a n d t o a c c o u n t
f o r t h e a c t u a l v e h i c l e , o r t h e a c t u a l a c q u is i ti o n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

W a s t h is p a r ti c u la r i n v e s ti g a ti o n

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
in it i a t e d th r o u g h i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t y o u o b t a in e d t h r o u g h C o l o n e l N a id o o
o r w a s i t i n i ti a t e d in a d i ff e r e n t w a y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir th is s p e c if ic in v e s ti g a t io n

w a s i n i t ia t e d b y g o in g t h r o u g h th e a c t u a l d o c u m e n ts w h i c h w e r e c e i v e d
fr o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e , n o w r i g h t in t h e b e g in n i n g i t is p a r t o f o u r
a g r e e m e n t a n d i n s o m e o f th e fi le s w e d i s c o v e r e d t h e n a m e N e w W o r l d
M o t o r s a n d w e c o u ld a s c e r t a in fr o m t h o s e fi le s t h a t N e w W o r ld M o t o r s
w e r e i n v o lv e d i n t h e r e p a r a ti o n o f v e h i c le s a n d th e s e r v ic i n g o f S I
v e h ic l e s , s o b a s e d o n t h a t w e th e n c o n t in u e d w i th t h e in v e s ti g a t io n
10

r e g a r d in g t h e m .

W e w e r e a b l e t o e s t a b l is h th a t , a n d t h is is w h a t

p i q u e d o u r i n te r e s t i s t h e fa c t t h a t o n e v e h ic le w o u l d h a v e a
w i n d s c r e e n r e p l a c e m e n t t h r e e , f o u r, fi v e t i m e s in a v e r y s h o r t p e r io d o f
ti m e w h ic h d i d n ’ t m a k e s e n s e t o u s .

Based on that I asked my

m e m b e r s , w h o a s s i s te d m e a t th e ti m e , t o g o t o N e w W o r l d M o to r s , n o t
a s p o li c e m e m b e r s b u t a s a m e m b e r o f t h e p u b lic , a n d a s k w h e t h e r t h e y
c a n – w h e t h e r th e y p r o v id e th e s e r v ic e o f r e p l a c i n g w i n d s c r e e n s . T h e y
c a m e b a c k to m e , a n d r e p o r t e d b a c k to m e t h a t t h e y d o n ’ t , s o t h a t
p i q u e d o u r in t e r e s t i n N e w W o r ld M o t o r s .
C o l o n e l N a i d o o a m p l i fi e d t h e i n f o r m a ti o n a t a l a t e r s ta g e w h e n
20

h e s p o k e to m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n r e l a t i o n to th e i n s p e c t i o n th a t w a s

c o n d u c t e d i f I a s k y o u t o t u r n t o p a g e 2 8 , p a r a g r a p h 8 3 .4 , y o u ta lk
s p e c i f ic a l ly t o t h e d a t e o f 2 3 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 , i s th a t th e d a t e o n w h ic h
y o u r te a m w e n t t o v i s i t th e p r e m i s e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h a t ’s th e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
d a t e w h e n I a s k e d t h e m t o g o a n d d o t h a t in v e s t i g a t io n s f o r m e ,
c o n d u c t t h a t i n v e s t i g a t io n fo r m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d s h o r tl y

a ft e r t h a t d a y ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I requested, because of what we

f o u n d a n d b e c a u s e o f w h a t m y m e m b e r s h a s t o ld m e I t h e n r e q u e s t e d
G e n e r a l H a n k e l t h a t I w a n t to s e e th e fi n a n c i a l s t a t e m e n t s r e l a ti n g t o
t h e t o ta l tr a d e b e tw e e n c o m p a n y X a n d N e w W o r l d M o t o r s , s i m i la r t o
t h e o n e I r e q u e s t e d fo r o n e s to p tr a v e l a n d t o u r s o r w a s t e f u l tr a v e l .
10

I

w a n t e d , a s I s a i d I w a n t e d to e s t a b l is h t h e t r a d e b e t w e e n t h e tw o
c o m p a n i e s a n d t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n f o r m e i t w o u ld h a v e i n d ic a te d a s
t o w h e t h e r o r n o t t o p u r s u e t h a t l i n e o f i n q u ir y.
G e n e r a l H a n k e l i n fo r m e d m e o n th e f o ll o w i n g d a y t h a t h e h a d
s p o k e n t o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s r e g a r d i n g m y r e q u e s t a n d th a t G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s i n f o r m e d h i m t h a t I a m n o t e n t it l e d t o i n f o r m a t io n r e la t in g t o
N e w W o r l d M o t o r s d u e t o n a t io n a l s e c u r it y is s u e s .
T h i s i n c id e n t c le a r ly i n d ic a te d t o m e t h e r id ic u l o u s p o s i t io n
t h a t I f o u n d m y s e l f i n , i n th a t I h a d t o e n q u ir e fr o m t h e s u s p e c t , i n t h i s
case

20

General

Lazarus,

whether

or

not

I

could

get

access

to

d o c u m e n t a ti o n n e e d e d t o e i t h e r p r o v e o r d is p r o v e h is o r o t h e r s
in v o lv e m e n t i n th is a l l e g a ti o n , s o – a n d th e m e r e f a c t th a t h e u s e d t h e
t e r m n a ti o n a l s e c u r it y i s s u e s w a s a c t u a lly a r e d fl a g t o m e , s a y i n g t h a t
w e a r e o n th e r i g h t tr a c k , w e a r e l o o k i n g a t s o m e t h in g t h a t i s b o t h e r in g
him.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And then if you go to paragraph 82

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
y o u t a lk a b o u t c e r ta in i n fo r m a ti o n th a t C o l o n e l N a id o o p r o v i d e d y o u
w i t h in r e l a ti o n to th is i n v e s ti g a ti o n . C a n y o u p le a s e i n f o r m t h e C h a i r
o f t h e i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t C o l o n e l N a i d o o p r o v id e d y o u w i t h ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o in f o r m e d m e o f

t h e c lo s e d t e n d e r p r o c e s s . A s p a r t o f t h e C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e h a d to s e ll
t h e ir v e h ic l e s a t s o m e s t a g e w h e n i t g e ts b o a r d e d , a n d t h e y u s e d t h e
c lo s e d te n d e r p r o c e s s f o r s e c u r i ty r e a s o n s , p u r p o s e s , t h e r e is n o t h i n g
wrong with that in terms of that.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

A n d s o a c l o s e d t e n d e r p r o c e s s is

the normal course of business?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

W i t h r e s p e c t to t h e S R v e h ic l e s a t

t h e t i m e , i n o t h e r w o r d s th e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s a c c o u n t v e h ic l e s , b e c a u s e
y o u c o u l d u s e th e d e t a i ls o f t h a t v e h i c l e t o tr a c e b a c k w h o t h e o w n e r
w a s , s o t h a t is w h y i t w a s s o ld t h r o u g h a c l o s e d t e n d e r p r o c e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, p l e a s e j u s t e x p la in t h a t a g a i n , w h y s h o u l d

t h e r e b e s e c r e c y a b o u t s e l li n g c a r s t h a t t h e C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e d o e s n ’ t
need anymore?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir if y o u l o o k o n t h e – w h e n

y o u d o a tr a c e o n a v e h ic l e it w o u l d p r o v id e y o u w i t h a ll t h e p r e v i o u s
20

o w n e r s o f t h a t v e h ic le , s o th a t i s w h a t t h e y w a n t to m i ti g a te , t h e f a c t
t h a t y o u a r e – t h a t y o u w o u l d s e e t h e p r e v io u s o w n e r s , b e c a u s e t h e
p r e v i o u s o w n e r is e i th e r a m e m b e r o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e o r a n a g e n t ,
b e c a u s e t h e v e h i c l e w a s r e g i s te r e d i n th a t p e r s o n ’s n a m e o r i t is a fr o n t
c o m p a n y, i t w a s r e g is t e r e d in t h e n a m e o f a fr o n t c o m p a n y, a n d t h a t is
w h a t y o u w a n t to , y o u w a n t e d t o m i t ig a t e th a t r is k f o r th o s e m e m b e r s

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
a n d c o m p a n i e s n o t to b e i d e n ti f ie d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l w o u l d t h e y n o r m a l ly b e r e g i s t e r e d u n d e r t h e

n a m e o f s o m e b o d y li k e a n in f o r m e r, a n a g e n t?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir p e r s o n y e s i t h a p p e n s , i n

f a c t t h a t’s t h e n o r m .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t i f i t is r e g is t e r e d i n t h e n a m e o f S A P S o r C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e t h e n t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o n e e d f o r s e c r e c y o r s h o u l d th e r e
be?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

J a i f i t i s r e g is te r e d i n t h e n a m e

o f S A P S o r – b u t i t c a n n o t b e r e g is t e r e d i n th e n a m e o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e b e c a u s e y o u w a n t t o k e e p t h e id e n ti fy, y o u w a n t t o k e e p
a n y a s s o c i a ti o n , y o u w a n t t o r e m o v e a n y a s s o c i a ti o n w i t h t h e p o li c e
s e r v ic e , y o u w a n t t o a v o i d t h a t a t a ll c o s ts , b e c a u s e y o u d o n ’ t w a n t t h e
a g e n t to b e a s s o c ia t e d w i t h th e p o li c e s e r v ic e , th a t c o u l d c o m p r o m i s e
h i m i n h is w o r k , i n t h e p r o je c t o r w h a t e v e r h e n e e d s t o d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f w h o e v e r tr i e s to tr a c e i t w o n ’t g e t t o k n o w a n
a g e n t w h o w a s u s i n g i t o r i f it w a s n ’ t r e g is t e r e d i n th e n a m e o f a n
a g e n t, i t w a s s i m p l y r e g i s te r e d i n t h e n a m e o f S A P S o r C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e , t h a t a l o n e s h o u l d n o t b e a p r o b l e m is n ’ t i t ?

20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir I t h in k . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : O b v i o u s l y C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e h a s g o t v e h i c l e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s t h e y d o .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d e v e r y b o d y w o u l d e x p e c t th e m t o h a v e s o m e
v e h ic l e s i n th e ir n a m e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I a c t u a ll y, w h a t I a m e x p l a i n i n g i s

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w h a t w a s e x p la i n e d to m e , a n d t h e r e a s o n s g i v e n a s to w h y i t i s d o n e in
t h a t s p e c i f ic w a y.

I u n d e r s ta n d th e i s s u e r e g a r d i n g t a k i n g c a r e o f

p e o p l e ’s – o f p e o p l e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a g e n ts j a .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h e a g e n ts a n d t h e ir s a f e ty, I

u n d e r s t a n d th a t , b u t a s y o u p o i n te d o u t it c o u l d h a v e b e e n ju s t
r e r e g is t e r e d t o S A P S a n d t h e n s o l d , t h a t c o u ld h a v e h a p p e n e d , b u t
t h a t ’s n o t w h a t th e y d i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a t ’s w h y I w a s a s k in g b e c a u s e I w a n te d to s e e
10

w h e t h e r w h a t r o o m t h e r e is o f a b u s e i n t h e s y s te m w h e n t h e r e is
a c t u a ll y a w a y w h ic h w o u ld n o t r e v e a l t h e i d e n t it y o f a n y a g e n t t h a t
could be used.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

In a s f a r C h a ir, i n a s fa r a s I

k n o w t h is s y s te m t h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t n o w h a s b e e n c h a n g e d
because of the abuse.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o t h a t h a s b e e n c h a n g e d , t h a t is

w h a t w a s , I w a s in f o r m e d o f t h a t, w h e t h e r t h a t h a p p e n e d o r n o t t h a t I
c a n n o t te ll .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y, o k a y. N o w t h e o n e th a t is u s e d n o w
is i t m o r e tr a n s p a r e n t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Fr o m w h a t I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir i t is

m o r e tr a n s p a r e n t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is i t c o r r e c t th e n t h a t t h e s y s t e m t h a t

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
y o u a r e r e f e r r in g to n o w is th e o n e t h a t w a s e x p la i n e d t o y o u b y
Colonel Naidoo?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o a t th e t i m e w h e n I

in t e r v ie w e d h i m y e s , th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

And

when

is

this

that you

in t e r v ie w e d h i m ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

That was over the course of many

m o n th s , b u t th e f ir s t i n t e r v i e w s t a r t e d i n O c to b e r, I t h i n k i t w a s a s I
t e s ti fi e d th e 1 8 t h o f O c t o b e r 2 0 11 .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o t h is is c e r t a i n l y a b o u t e i g h t y e a r s

ago?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y, p le a s e p r o c e e d t o e x p la i n

w h a t C o l o n e l N a id o o d e s c r i b e d t o y o u to b e t h e p r o c e s s o f p r o c u r e m e n t
f o r v e h ic le s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

His explanation to me was that

t h e r e w e r e . . .[ i n te r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, o n w h a t p a g e a r e y o u n o w ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

W e a r e o n p a g e 2 7 C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: 37?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Tw o s e v e n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o s e v e n , o h .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

It is th e to p p a r a g r a p h .

MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

H e e x p l a in e d t o m e t h a t a s f a r a s

h e c o u ld r e c a ll o r a s fa r a s I r e c a l l i n t e r m s o f w h a t h e e x p l a i n e d t o m e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e r e w e r e fi v e b id d e r s i n to t a l , t h e b i d d e r s w e r e p r e s e l e c t e d , t w o o f
w h ic h s h a r e d d ir e c t o r s / m e m b e r s , w h o a r e f a m ily m e m b e r s o f Mr J o e
M a r k o f N e w W o r ld M o t o r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o r r y, i f I c o u ld j u s t g e t c l a r i ty fr o m

y o u , w h o w a s M r J o e M a r k r e l a t iv e to N e w W o r l d M o t o r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
N e w W o r ld M o t o r s .

Mr Joe Mark was the owner of

C o l o n e l N a i d o o i n d i c a t e d th a t t h e c l o s e d t e n d e r

p r o c e s s i s a s h a m a s C o lo n e l B a r n a r d a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i n f o r m s M r
M a r k b e fo r e h a n d o f t h e t e n d e r a m o u n ts fr o m t h e o th e r b i d d e r s .
10

Mr

M a r k w o u l d t h e n a d j u s t h is b id t o b e j u s t h i g h e r t h a n t h a t o f t h e o t h e r
b i d d e r s . H e w o u l d th e n b e a w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r a n d b u y th e v e h ic le s . A t
t h e e n d o f 2 0 11 M r M a r k h a s a p p r o x i m a t e ly 8 0 v e h ic le s r e g is t e r e d i n
h is n a m e a n d / o r N e w W o r l d M o t o r s n a m e t h a t t h e y b o u g h t fr o m
company X, as part of this closed tender process.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

To w h a t e x t e n t w e r e y o u a b l e to

v e r i fy a n y o f t h is i n fo r m a ti o n t h r o u g h y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir th r o u g h t h e s e a r c h a n d

s e i z u r e s t h a t w e d i d a t t h e p r e m is e s o f N e w W o r l d M o to r s w e f o u n d
c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h ic h w o u l d i n d ic a t e t h a t t h e r e w a s - n o
20

c o m p e ti t iv e b i d d i n g p r o c e s s h a d ta k e n p l a c e .

T h e c o m p a n ie s t h a t

r e p r e s e n t e d M r M a r k a n d h is fa m i ly th e r e w a s a n a c t u a l b o o k th a t w e
f o u n d w h e r e y o u c o u ld s e e t h e d i ffe r e n t a m o u n ts p e n c il le d i n to t h a t
b o o k f o r t h e s p e c i fi c t e n d e r s a n d th a t i s i n r e s p e c t o f b o th o f t h o s e
companies.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t i n f o r m a ti o n d i d C o lo n e l N a i d o o

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
g iv e y o u i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e c o n d it i o n o f t h e s e v e h ic le s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C o l o n e l N a i d o o s a id t h a t m o s t o f

t h e s e – w e ll t h a t’s h is i n f o r m a t io n , m o s t o f th e v e h i c l e s w o u l d b e s e n t
ju s t p r i o r to t h e v e h i c l e b e i n g b o a r d e d t o n e w W o r ld M o t o r s , th e n t h e y
w i ll p r o v i d e e x te n s iv e s e r v i c i n g fo r t h a t v e h ic le , b u y, p u t o n n e w ty r e s
a n d s e r v i c e t h e v e h ic l e p r o p e r l y a n d t h e n th e v e h ic l e w o u l d th e n b e
placed on the closed tender process.

I t w o u ld t h e n b e b o u g h t b y M r

M a r k a n d a t ti m e s i t w o u l d b e s o l d b a c k t o th e m e m b e r w h o d r o v e th e
v e h ic l e i n t h e fi r s t p la c e , a t t h e d i s c o u n t e d p r ic e .
10

U n f o r t u n a t e ly

b e c a u s e o f th e d o c u m e n ta t io n t h a t w a s n ’ t g iv e n t o u s , w e r e n ’ t p r o v i d e d
a n y f u r t h e r t o u s w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o v e r i f y t h a t s p e c i f ic a ll e g a ti o n
r e g a r d in g t h a t , s o – b u t t h a t is p a r t o f t h e a l le g a ti o n s t h a t h e – w e w e r e
a b l e to i d e n ti f y th a t t h e y d i d b u y v e h ic l e s a n d t h a t th e r e w a s a t e n d e r
p r o c e s s in w h ic h th e y p a r tic i p a t e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W a s t h e r e a n y i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s

g iv e n to y o u i n r e l a ti o n t o th e p r ic i n g o f t h e s e v e h ic le s w h e n t h e y w e r e
sold, or purchased?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELO FSE:

C h a i r a s I a l lu d e d t o b e fo r e t h e –

if i t i s a m e m b e r t h a t is b u y in g h is o w n v e h ic le w h ic h h e u s e d a s a
20

S e c r e t S e r v ic e A c c o u n t v e h i c l e t h e a m o u n t w o u l d b e le s s t h a n N e w
W o r l d M o t o r s w o u ld h a v e p a id f o r i t, if i t is a v e h i c l e t h a t t h e y ju s t
b o u g h t t h r o u g h t h e c lo s e d t e n d e r p r o c e s s w i th t h e m h a v in g t h e – o r
t h e m s e l li n g i t o n t o w a r d s s o m e o n e e ls e t h e n t h a t a m o u n t w o u l d a l s o
b e j u s t h i g h e r th a n th e c l o s e s t t e n d e r, s o th a t t h e y c a n a c q u ir e th e
v e h ic l e a n d t h e n s e ll o n t o a t h ir d p a r t y a t a p r o fi t .

Page 132 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
CHAIRPERSON: One second. Thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

S o is i t th e n

c o r r e c t ly s t a te d th a t th e v e h ic le s w e r e s o l d a t in f la t e d c a s h p r ic e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
received.

Ye s , t h a t i s t h e i n fo r m a ti o n th a t I

A s I s a i d I d i d n o t r e c e iv e t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n f r o m C r i m e

I n t e lli g e n c e to c o m p a r e t h e a m o u n ts , w h a t I d i d r e c e iv e o r w h a t w a s
t o l d t o m e is t h a t t h e r e w a s m i n o r r e p a ir s d o n e t o t h o s e v e h i c l e s a n d
t h e v e h ic le s w e r e in g o o d c o n d i ti o n w h e n i t w a s s o l d t o N e w W o r ld
Motors.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i n t h is r e g a r d th e in f o r m a ti o n

y o u r e c e iv e d f r o m C o lo n e l N a i d o o t h a t t h e c a r s w e r e s o ld a t i n fl a t e d
p r i c e s w e r e y o u g i v e n a n y o t h e r in f o r m a t io n a s t o w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e
c a s h s u r p l u s o f t h e i n fl a te d p r ic e s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s C h a ir, t h e i n f l a t e d p r ic e s w it h

r e g a r d s I w a s j u s t a c t u a ll y lo o k in g a t m y a ff i d a v i t n o w a n d I fo r g o t
a b o u t t h is p o in t , a t ti m e s a c c o r d in g t o N a id o o th e s e v e h ic l e s , C o lo n e l
N a i d o o , t h e s e v e h ic le s w o u l d b e s o l d b a c k t o C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e w h ic h
w a s j u s t p l a c e d o n a t e n d e r a n d t h e y w o u l d b e s o ld b a c k t o C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e a t a n in f la t e d a m o u n t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u s a y b a c k t o C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e d o y o u

m e a n t o i n d iv i d u a ls w i th i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e , o r t o th e i n s t it u ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

N o C h a ir I a m n o w m e a n i n g t h e

in s t i tu t io n y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , s o th e y w e r e s o ld o u t fr o m t h e i n s ti t u ti o n a n d

t h e n l a te r o n th e y a r e s o l d b a c k ?

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, t h a t is

a c c o r d i n g t o i n f o r m a ti o n f r o m C o lo n e l N a i d o o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A s I s a i d I c o u l d n o t, w e w e r e

a b l e t o c o r r o b o r a t e s o m e o f th is b u t n o t e v e r y t h i n g y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Not everything.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Wa s t h e r e a n y o t h e r i n f o r m a t i o n th a t

w a s g iv e n t o y o u a s t o w h a t t h a t c a s h s u r p lu s w a s u s e d f o r ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Ye s C h a ir a c c o r d i n g t o , a s I s a i d I

w i ll r e fe r t h e C h a ir t o N a id o o w h e n h e s a y s t o m e s o m e th i n g , a c c o r d i n g
t o C o lo n e l N a i d o o h e – t h e s u r p l u s t h a t h a s b e e n c r e a t e d w h e r e t h e r e
is a s u r p l u s c r e a t e d , th a t m o n i e s w o u l d b e u t il is e d , a n d I w a n t t o m a k e ,
a n d I w a n t t o t a k e a n e x a m p le , w h e n G e n e r a l M d l u l i w e n t to S in g a p o r e
h e r e c e iv e d a n a d v a n c e a m o u n t fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s a c c o u n t i n
c a s h s o t h a t h e c a n g o a n d – s o w h e n h e l e a v e s h e h a s c a s h i n h is
p o c k e t w h e r e h e c a n , t h e n h e c a n p a y h is a c c o m m o d a ti o n a n d t h e n
w h e n h e c o m e s b a c k h e p r o v i d e s t h e n e c e s s a r y i n v o ic e s t o c o v e r t h a t
cost.
S o i n s o m e i n s ta n c e s a c c o r d in g t o C o lo n e l N a id o o w h e n s e n i o r

20

m a n a g e r s c a m e b a c k f r o m o v e r s e a s t r ip s li k e th is a n d h e w a s
s p e c i f ic a l ly r e f e r r in g t o G e n e r a l M d l u l i a s w e ll , t h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e t h e
n e c e s s a r y r e c e i p ts t o b a c k u p th e e x p e n s e s th a t th e y, o r th e fa c t t h a t
t h e y d o n o t h a v e t h e m o n e y a n y m o r e , s o t h e y h a d t o d e v i s e a s it u a ti o n
w h e r e th e y h a d t o g e t , h a d t o – th e y h a d t o – h o w c a n I p u t th is , th e y
h a d t o c r e a t e c a s h f o r t h a t t o b e u s e d t o p a y b a c k th e o u ts t a n d in g

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
a m o u n t i n t e r m s o f th e a d v a n c e th a t w a s a s k e d fo r i n t h e f ir s t p l a c e .
S o t h a t is o n e o f t h e i n s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e c a s h w o u l d h a v e
b e e n u s e d t o c o v e r th e a d v a n c e th a t w a s t a k e n o u t b y t h e s p e c i f ic
m e m b e r, a n d in t h i s r e g a r d w h a t C o l o n e l N a i d o o s a id h e a s w e ll a s
o th e r m e m b e r s o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e d i d , w a s t o r e c e iv e fr a u d u le n t
in v o ic e s fr o m N e w W o r l d M o t o r s , r e la t i n g t o t h e r e p a ir i n g o f w i n d
s c r e e n s , w h e r e t h e a c t u a l r e p a ir d i d n o t t a k e p l a c e , b u t a n in v o ic e w a s
p r o v i d e d s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d p u t in a c l a i m f o r a r e p l a c e m e n t o f t h e
w i n d o w o r t h e w i n d s c r e e n a n d t h a t m o n e y w o u l d t h e n b e u s e d to c o v e r
10

t h e c o s t o f o t h e r – o f c la i m s th a t w a s n o t p a i d in f u ll , w a s n o t p a id b a c k
in f u ll .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o t h e n t o s u m m a r is e w h a t y o u

h a v e s a i d , a n d p l e a s e c o r r e c t m e I ’ m w r o n g , i t w a s t h e i n fo r m a t i o n o f
C o l o n e l N a i d o o t h a t v e h ic le s w e r e

procured and sold by Crime

I n t e lli g e n c e t h r o u g h a c l o s e d p r o c e s s w h i c h w a s in f a c t a s h a m ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
I t i s a ls o h i s e v i d e n c e t h a t th e s e

v e h ic l e s w e r e s o l d a t i n fl a te d p r ic e s , b e i t t o th ir d p a r t ie s o r b e b a c k t o
C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

J a , h e w a s r e fe r r i n g to i n fl a te d

p r i c e s b a c k t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A p o lo g i e s y e s , C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Ye s . ,
But there were instances where it

w a s s o l d t o t h e in d i v i d u a ls o f C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a s w e ll ?

Page 135 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s a n d a t a d is c o u n te d p r ic e .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And any surplus that was then

d e r iv e d fr o m t h e s e i n fl a t e d p r i c e s d i d n o t g o t o t h e b e n e f it o f C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e b u t w e n t t o th e b e n e f i t o f o th e r s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t w e n t to th e b e n e f it o f N e w

World Motors and Mr Mark as well as others yes.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h o s e fu n d s w e r e i n f a c t S t a t e

funds?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

At page 27 paragraph 83.3,

a p o lo g i e s p a g e 2 8 p a r a g r a p h 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y M s S e p t e m b e r, th e r e f e r e n c e to S R is i t

n o t h i n g m o r e t h a n s i m p l y a r e fe r e n c e t o S e c r e t R e g i s te r o r i s t h e r e
s o m e o th e r s ig n if ic a n c e a b o u t i t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a ir y o u m u s t e x c u s e m e , I a m

ju s t u s in g th e l a n g u a g e t h a t p e o p l e fr o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h a t y o u m ig h t b e f a m ili a r w i t h , o h o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s , s o S I w o u ld i n d ic a te i f I t a lk

a b o u t t h e S I v e h ic le i f y o u s e e th a t C h a ir t h e n i t m e a n s t h a t i t is a
20

v e h ic l e b o u g h t th r o u g h t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s a c c o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a r a g r a p h 8 6 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t,

page 28 you refer to another search and seizure warrant that you
o b t a i n e d f o r e x e c u t i o n . P le a s e i n f o r m t h e C h a ir a b o u t t h is .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I h a v e a lr e a d y t e s t i fi e d t o

Page 136 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y, M s S e p t e m b e r I t h o u g h t y o u w a n te d t o

c o v e r 8 3 . 3 , o r d id y o u c h a n g e y o u r m i n d ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o , C h a ir I – n o , n o i t w a s a c t u a ll y

86.
CHAIRPERSON: 86?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

86 yes.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e c o v e r e d 8 3 .3 ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

We have covered 83.3.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. O k a y. Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I s i t c o r r e c t t h a t

p a r t o f t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t y o u t h e n s e iz e d d e a l t w i th t h e ti m e p e r i o d
t h a t c o m p a n y X h a s b e e n in b u s i n e s s w i t h N e w W o r l d M o t o r s ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, i f I m a y

C h a ir I j u s t w a n t t o g o b a c k t o 8 3 .3 , I h a v e t e s ti fi e d to t h e fa c t t h a t I
r e c e i v e d c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t a ti o n fr o m C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e a n d t h a t l e d m e
t o i n te r r o g a te N e w W o r l d M o t o r s a n d t h e in v o ic e s t h a t w e r e s u b m i t te d
a s p a r t o f t h o s e f il e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

S o t h a t is w h e r e I r e f e r, t h is is

83.3.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I n r e s p e c t o f w h a t I s a i d e a r li e r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, y e s , o k a y, o k a y. A n d t h a t is s u e a b o u t 8 3 .4
h a s a ls o b e e n c o v e r e d ?

Page 137 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: About wind screens and so on.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C o r r e c t C h a ir, t h e o r d e r o f t h e

e v i d e n c e a s it is r e c o r d e d i n t h e a ff id a v i t i s t o l d th r o u g h th e p r i s m o f
h o w th is p a r ti c u l a r w it n e s s w e n t a b o u t i n e s t a b li s h in g h is i n v e s ti g a ti o n
a n d th e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s t h e r e c e iv e d f r o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o m e o f i t w h i c h i s n o t a l l in t h e

o r d e r u n fo r t u n a t e l y a s i t h a s b e e n r e c o r d e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d th e n o n p a g e 2 9 y o u r e f e r e n c e

c e r t a i n c o n c e r n s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f p a r ti c u la r in d iv i d u a ls ,
in r e l a ti o n t o M r M a r k
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir, C o lo n e l

N a i d o o i n f o r m e d m e t h a t a fa m i ly m e m b e r o f M r M a r k w a s a ls o
a p p o i n t e d a s a c a p t a i n w it h in C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e a t t h e t i m e , d u r i n g th a t
s a m e t i m e fr a m e a n d d u r i n g th e 2 5 0 a p p o i n t m e n t p r o c e s s . A n d I w o u l d
c o n fir m t h is w a s G e n e r a l H a n k e l .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:
20

S o y o u in d e p e n d e n tly v e r if i e d th is t o

be correct?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W a s t h e r e a n y t h in g w r o n g fo r a

f a m ily m e m b e r o f Mr M a r k t o b e a p p o in t e d in C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir t h e r e is n o t n e c e s s a r i ly

s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w i t h it , I t h i n k th a t i n t e r m s o f t h e r e la t io n s h i p th a t

Page 138 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
w a s – t h a t h a p p e n e d b e tw e e n C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e a n d M r M a r k th is
s h o u l d h a v e b e e n d is c lo s e d to e i t h e r G e n e r a l M d lu li a n d I d o n o t k n o w
w h e t h e r i t w a s d is c lo s e d o r w h e t h e r i t w a s d is c l o s e d to a t h i r d p a r t y
o u t s i d e C r i m e I n t e ll ig e n c e , b e c a u s e t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p a r e t o o c l o s e f o r
t h e m – f o r th is n o t t o b e d is c lo s e d . N e w W o r l d M o to r s d o e s b u s in e s s
w i t h C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e , G e n e r a l L a z a r u s is a t t h e h e a d o f t h a t S e c r e t
S e r v ic e Ac c o u n t , w h o a p p r o v e s th e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s , Mr M a r k i s a s e r v i c e
p r o v i d e r t o C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e , h i s s o n g e t s a p p o i n te d w i th i n C r i m e
I n t e lli g e n c e o f w h ic h G e n e r a l L a z a r u s i s t h e p e r s o n i n c h a r g e o f t h e
10

250 appointment process.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s o w h a t y o u a r e s a y is b a s e d o n

your conclusions of the events that you had become aware of, but not
n e c e s s a r i ly f a c tu a l c o n c l u s i o n s o f a n y w r o n g f u l o r i ll e g a l a p p o i n t m e n t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o y o u h a v e t o lo o k a t th is

h o li s t ic a l ly a n d i n t e r m s o f th e r e l a ti o n s h ip t h a t h a s t a k e n p la c e , t h e
q u i d p r o q u o r e l a t i o n s h ip t h a t h a s t a k e n p l a c e , b e c a u s e a c c o r d in g to
C o l o n e l N a i d o o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d h i m s e l f a ls o b e n e fi t t e d fi n a n c i a l ly
fr o m t h is – fr o m t h e s e t r a n s a c t io n s , i n t h e s e n s e th a t c e r t a in – th a t
s o m e o f th e m o n ie s t h a t w a s p a i d t o N a i d o o o r t h a t w a s c r e a te d
20

t h r o u g h s u p p l y i n g o f f a ls e in v o ic e s t o C r i m e – t o S e c r e t S e r v ic e
A c c o u n t , s o m e o f th a t c a s h w a s s h a r e d b e tw e e n h i m a n d G e n e r a l
L a z a r u s , a c c o r d in g to C o l o n e l N a id o o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

T h e n e x t i n v e s ti g a ti o n s ta r t s o n

p a g e 2 9 , a n d i t is ti t le d G e n e r a l S o lo m o n L a z a r u s p r o m o t io n s a n d
a p p o i n t m e n ts o f fa m i ly a n d fr i e n d s t o C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e .

Page 139 of 150

Where did

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
y o u o b ta i n i n fo r m a t i o n in r e l a t io n to t h is in v e s t ig a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r t h e i n i ti a l i n fo r m a ti o n c a m e

fr o m – c a m e fr o m C o l o n e l N a i d o o a n d th e n b a s e d o n h i s i n f o r m a t i o n I
t h e n r e q u e s t e d c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t a ti o n . A n d C o lo n e l N a i d o o e x p la i n e d
h is o w n r e l a t i o n s h i p a ls o t o m e in r e la t io n to t h is – t h is i n c i d e n t a n d
h o w – h e s a id t o m e t h a t h e is – h e g o t t o k n o w L a z a r u s t h r o u g h
p l a y in g v o l l e y b a ll in t h e – v o l l e y b a ll in t h e la t e ‘ 9 0 ’s i n K Z N . T h e y u s e d
t o s a m e – t o p l a y i n t h e s a m e l e a g u e i n To n g a a t . C o lo n e l N a id o o w a s
p r o m o te d fr o m b e in g a W a r r a n t O ff ic e r t o t h e r a n k o f L i e u t e n a n t10

C o l o n e l b y G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t h r o u g h th e c o v e r t a d v e r t is e m e n t p r o c e s s
t h e 2 5 0 p o s ts t h a t w e – th a t I w a s r e f e r r i n g to e a r l i e r i n 2 0 1 0 . H e w a s
n o t o n ly a m e m b e r o f C I A w h o g o t p r o m o te d .

H e w a s n o t th e o n l y

m e m b e r w h o g o t p r o m o t e d i n s u c h a w a y. Va r io u s o t h e r s – o t h e r c lo s e
c o n fi d a n ts a n d f a m ily m e m b e r s o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a ls o g o t e i t h e r
p r o m o te d o r a p p o in t e d i n s e n io r p o s i t io n s w i th o u t f o ll o w i n g d u e
process.

General Lazarus

was

a ls o

i n ti m a t e l y

in v o lv e d

in

th e

a p p o i n t m e n t o f f a m ily a n d fr i e n d s w h e r e a s h e s h o u l d h a v e r e c u s e d
h i m s e l f fr o m t h a t s p e c if ic p r o c e s s . A n d t h e n I w e n t a n d I tr i e d t o – a n d
I r e q u e s t e d i n fo r m a ti o n r e g a r d i n g t h e a p p o in t m e n ts a n d t h e t a b le w h ic h
20

is t a b l e 2 a s p a r t o f m y a ffi d a v it i t th e n s e t s o u t t h e – th e v a r i o u s
a p p o i n t m e n ts a n d i n w h ic h r a n k t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t e d . A n d th e s e – i n
r e s p e c t o f th is y o u w il l s e e th a t th e r e l a ti o n s h i p i n t h e c o l u m n
r e l a ti o n s h i p I w o u l d t h e n u s e t h e n u m b e r F M 1 – F M a n d i n h is i n s t a n c e
it w i ll b e F M 0 t o F M 1 2 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o y o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s h a d v e r i fi e d

Page 140 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h a t th e r e w e r e tw e lv e in d iv i d u a ls w h o h a d b e e n a p p o i n t e d t h r o u g h t h e
2 5 0 c o – 2 5 0 p o s t s p r o c e s s w h o w e r e t h e n e it h e r fa m i ly o r fr i e n d s o f
General Lazarus?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I can

in c l u d e c o l le a g u e s a s w e ll b u t w h e n I t a l k a b o u t f a m ily a n d fr i e n d s i t
in c l u d e s c o ll e a g u e s w i t h w h i c h h e w a s fr ie n d s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
w h ic h s t a r s o n p a g e 2 9 .

A n d i f w e c a n j u s t lo o k t o t h is ta b le

T h e fir s t c o l u m n i s ti tl e d R e l a ti o n s h i p .

The

s e c o n d c o lu m n is S t a t u s a n d w h a t e x a c t ly d o y o u m e a n b y s t a tu s ?
10

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r b y s t a t u s I m e a n a t t h e ti m e

w h e n I d r e w u p t h i s c o lu m n a n d i t w a s n o w f o r th e p u r p o s e o f t h is
c o m m i s s io n I – I w a s a b l e t o g a i n a c c e s s to t h e [ in d is ti n c t ] U p s y s t e m
w h ic h w o u l d t h e n s h o w m e t h e in d iv i d u a ls i n v o l v e d .

So the Status

c o l u m n w o u l d t h e n s t a t e t h a t a t th e ti m e w h e n I d i d t h i s t h e p e r s o n w a s
a c ti v e .

I n o t h e r w o r d s s t il l w o r k in g w i t h i n t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o lic e

S e r v ic e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e n e x t c o l u m n is th e D a te o f

A p p o i n t m e n t i n R a n k f o l lo w e d b y a c o l u m n ti t le d R a n k .

Next column

L e v e l , fo ll o w i n g c o l u m n D a t e o f P r o m o ti o n / A p p o i n t m e n t i n R a n k ,
20

f o ll o w e d b y a n o t h e r c o l u m n c a ll e d R a n k a n d t h e l a s t c o l u m n o n th e
r ig h t h a n d s i d e w h ic h is L e v e l . N o w w h e n y o u r e f e r r in g t o r a n k is t h a t
t h e n t h e r a n k a s y o u in d ic te d u n d e r A n n e x u r e 1 t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t w h ic h
you addressed earlier today?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. I f I c a n ju s t

b e o f m o r e a s s is t a n c e . I f y o u l o o k a t t h e d a te o f a p p o i n t m e n t i n r a n k

Page 141 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
t h e fir s t d a t e t h i s w o u l d m e a n t h a t th a t p e r s o n w a s a lr e a d y a p p o i n t e d
within SAPS on the 1st March 2001.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

J u s t fo r c l a r i t y o f th e r e c o r d a r e y o u

r e fe r r i n g t o th e th ir d c o l u m n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I a m r e fe r r i n g to t h e th ir d c o l u m n

and I am referring to FM06.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s .

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

As an example. That person was

a p p o i n t e d a s a n a d m in c l e r k o n a l e v e l 6 .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th a t w a s o n t h e 1 s t M a r c h 2 0 –

sorry 2001.
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

2 0 0 1 th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. O n t h e

1 5 t h F e b r u a r y a s p a r t o f th is p r o c e s s th e 2 5 0 p r o c e s s th a t p e r s o n w a s
appointed as a captain on a level 8.
CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r t h a t m e a n s h e j u m p e d fr o m

a d m i n c l e r k t o c a p t a i n o r h e d i d g o t h r o u g h o th e r r a n k s b u t i t d id n o t
r e fl e c t th e m ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

H e – C h a i r i n r e s p e c t o f t h is h e

ju m p e d a t l e a s t o n e r a n k .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – o n – a t le a s t o n e r a n k ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I n t e r ms o f – ja – i n t e r m s o f w h a t

is s ta t e d h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

He jumped at least one rank.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 142 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I f w e l o o k a t th e n e x t l i n e i te m w h ic h

is F M 0 7 c a n y o u t a k e u s th r o u g h t h a t a s a n e x a m p l e t o o p le a s e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A s a r e s u l t o f th is o n e i t i s – h e

w a s a p p o in t e d o n t h e 1 s t A u g u s t 2 0 0 5 a s a c a p t a i n u n d e r l e v e l 8 . O n
t h e 1 s t M a r c h – o n t h e 1 s t M a r c h 2 0 1 0 h e w a s a p p o in t e d a s a c o l o n e l o n
t h e le v e l o f – o n a le v e l 1 2 w h ic h m e a n s h e ju m p e d b a s ic a l ly fo u r
le v e ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h a t i s c o m p l e t e ly u n u s u a l j u m p ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d b y w a y o f a la s t e x a m p l e i f w e

lo o k a t l i n e i t e m n u m b e r 4 F M 0 4 c a n y o u t a k e u s th r o u g h t h a t b e c a u s e
in t h e t h ir d c o l u m n it a p p e a r s b l a n k ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

So in

r e s p e c t o f t h i s s p e c i fic i n d i v i d u a l h e o r s h e w a s a n i n d iv id u a l – I m e a n
a c iv il ia n a n d w h o w a s a p p o i n t e d t o t h e r a n k o f L ie u t e n a n t C o l o n e l
w h ic h i s o n a le v e l 1 0 o n t h e 1 s t M a r c h 2 0 1 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t m e a n s th a t o n e d i d n o t g o th r o u g h t h e r a n k s
a t a ll ?
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir h e o r s h e d id n o t g o …

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e o r s h e ju m p e d e v e r y t h i n g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Th a t is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : U n ti l ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A n d th a t is – i s i t a b o u t r a n k n u m b e r 5 6 7 fr o m

Page 143 of 150

17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
bottom?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t s t a r ts i f I a m n o t m i s ta k e n it

s t a r ts a t l e v e l 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

T h e r a n k s w i t h i n – h o w t h e l e v e ls

within SAPS.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o w h a t I a m t h i n k in g is i f y o u s t a r t fr o m

Constable how many ranks do you…
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
10

I have to check.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i t r e q u ir e s a c t u a l c o u n ti n g ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

I t i s s ix r a n k s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S ix r a n k s .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Al r i g h t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I f o n e w e r e th e n

t o c o n s i d e r t h e f u ll t a b l e w h ic h s t a r ts o n p a g e 2 9 a n d e n d s o n p a g e 3 0
is i t c o r r e c t th a t o t h e r t h a n F M 11 w h e r e t h e r e is a r e t e n t i o n o f a r a n k a t
le v e l 1 0 t h e r e m a i n i n g i n d iv i d u a ls h a v e e i t h e r ju m p e d fr o m a lo w e r r a n k
t o a m u c h h i g h e r r a n k a l te r n a tiv e ly h a v e a p p o i n t e d i n t o a s e n i o r r a n k
20

a s a c iv il i a n ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d i t is c o r r e c t t h a t y o u c o n f ir m e d

t h e s e a p p o i n t m e n ts ?
MR

KOBUS

DEMEYER

ROELOFSE:

Ja

I

c o n fir m e d

th e s e

a p p o i n t m e n ts o n t h e – o n t h e [ i n d is ti n c t ] U p s y s t e m p r i o r t o my – m e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
fi n a l is i n g my a ffi d a v it .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

T h e n e x t i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t y o u d e a l

w i t h is t it l e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a b u s e o f s a f e h o u s e .
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
H o w d i d y o u c o m e t o l e a r n o f th is –

o f t h e a ll e g a t io n s u n d e r p e n n i n g t h i s i n v e s ti g a ti o n ?
MR KOBUS DEME YER ROELOFS E:

C h a ir p e r s o n – C h a ir i t is a g a i n

G e n e r a l – C o l o n e l N a i d o o t h a t in f o r m e d m e o f – o f th is in c i d e n t . A t t h e
ti m e G e n e r a l N a i d o o – C o lo n e l N a id o o w a s – tr a v e ll e d w i t h G e n e r a l
10

L a z a r u s a n d th e y w e r e i n c l o s e c o n t a c t w i t h e a c h o t h e r.

Th e y a ls o

s t a y e d i n m o r e o r t h e l e s s t h e s a m e v ic i n i ty. A c c o r d i n g to G e n e r a l –
a c c o r d i n g t o C o lo n e l N a i d o o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s d id s o m e e x t e n s iv e
r e n o v a t io n s t o h is p r iv a t e p r o p e r t y t o s u c h a n e x te n t t h a t h e c o u l d n o t
s t a y t h e r e a n y m o r e . H e h a d t o v a c a te t h e p r e m is e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d d u r in g w h a t p e r io d w a s t h i s ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

This was during 2005/2006.

He

t h e n s ta t e d to m e t h a t th e r e n t a l a m o u n t w a s a p p r o x i m a t e ly R 6 0 0 0 . 0 0
per month and according to Colonel Naidoo he was responsible for
paying the rent out of the Secret Services Account.
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Who was responsible?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

Colonel Naidoo was responsible.

I n o th e r w o r d s h e h a d t o w i th d r a w m o n e y fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s
A c c o u n t , p a y i t a n d t h e n p r o v i d e th e in v o ic e t o c o v e r t h e c o s t o f t h e
p a y m e n t . H e s t a t e s f u r th e r th a t t h e p r e m i s e s w e r e r e n t e d o n l y f o r t h e
p e r i o d t h a t G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a n d h is f a m il y m a d e u s e o f i t a n d i t w a s

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
e x c lu s i v e ly fu r n is h e d fr o m m o n i e s fr o m t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t .
A f t e r th e le a s e p e r i o d e x p i r e d – h a d e x p i r e d t h e fu r n it u r e w a s w r i t te n
o ff .

T h e f u r n i t u r e w a s s ti ll i n e x c e l le n t c o n d it i o n a n d C o lo n e l N a i d o o

a n d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s to o k s o m e o f th e f u r n i t u r e f o r t h e ms e l v e s .
A c c o r d i n g t o C o lo n e l N a i d o o G e n e r a l L a z a r u s t o o k v a r i o u s i t e m s
in c l u d i n g m i r r o r s , c o ff e e ta b le s a n d l a m p s f o r h i m s e l f . I t h e n r e q u e s t e d
C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e a t th e t i m e w h e n I w a s s t il l a l l o w e d t o g e t
d o c u m e n t a ti o n t o c o n fi r m w h e th e r th is r e n t a l t o o k p l a c e o r n o t . I w a s
g iv e n th e a c tu a l d o c u m e n ta t io n . I w a s a b l e t o c o r r o b o r a t e w h a t C o lo n e l
10

Naidoo has told me.
L a z a r u s s ta y e d th e r e .

It w a s fo r a p p r o x i m a t e l y o n e y e a r t h a t G e n e r a l
The Secret Services Account was responsible

f o r t h e m a i n ta i n i n g o f t h e g a r d e n , th e D S T V o r D S T V a n d o t h e r
e x p e n s e s w i th in t h e h o u s e h o l d o f G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a t t h e ti m e . Th a t is
a s fa r a s I c a n t a k e i t a t t h i s p o i n t i n ti m e C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is th e r e a n y p r o h i b i t io n a g a i n s t a

m e m b e r o f t h e p o l ic e u s i n g a s a f e h o u s e f o r p e r s o n a l b e n e fi ts ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

C h a i r th e c o r r e c t p r o c e d u r e is t h e

f o ll o w i n g : I f t h e r e is a – i f t h e r e i s a th r e a t o n y o u r li f e a n d w h e th e r
y o u w o r k fo r C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e o r w h e t h e r y o u w o r k f o r t h e c o m m i s s i o n
20

o r w h e th e r y o u w o r k f o r S A P S a r i s k a s s e s s m e n t n e e d s t o b e d o n e a n d
t h a t i s d o n e b y C r i m e I n t e ll i g e n c e .
B a s e d o n t h a t r i s k a s s e s s m e n t a d e c i s io n w il l b e t a k e n
w h e t h e r i t is r e q u ir e d f o r th a t p e r s o n t o b e p r o te c te d a n d w h e t h e r t h a t
p r o t e c t io n m e a n s p e r s o n a l p r o t e c ti o n o r p r o te c ti o n a t h is h o m e i t d o e s
n o t a c t u a lly – i t is t h e s a m e t h i n g .

W h e n it c o m e s t o p r o t e c ti o n a t

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
h o m e t h e c o r r e c t p r o c e d u r e a f t e r t h a t is t h a t y o u h a v e t o e n g a g e t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c W o r k s w h o w o u l d th e n ; b a s e d o n t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t
t h e r e is a th r e a t m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e – t h a t th e n e c e s s a r y s e c u r i ty
u p g r a d e s h a s b e e n – h a s b e e n – o r i s b e in g d o n e t o y o u r h o m e i n a s
f a r a s t h e t h r e a t e x is ts . T h a t is w h a t is s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n .
I c o u l d n o t f in d a n y s e c u r i ty th r e a t t h a t w a s p a r t o f t h e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t I p e r u s e d ; th a t w a s g i v e n t o m e s o I c o u l d n o t f i n d
a n y e v id e n c e t h a t t h e r e w a s a s e c u r i ty t h r e a t o r s e c u r it y r is k o n Mr
Lazarus.
10

A n d e v e n i f t h e r e w e r e t h e fu n d s s h o u ld h a v e c o m e fr o m

s o m e w h e r e e l s e a n d n o t t h e S e c r e t S e r v i c e s A c c o u n t fo r t h e p a y m e n t
o f t h a t p r o p e r t y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

B u t n o w th e r e is a m a r k e d

d is t in c ti o n b e t w e e n b e n e f i ti n g f r o m a s a f e h o u s e a n d o b ta in i n g f u n d s i n
r e l a ti o n t o a n u p g r a d e f o r s e c u r i ty r e a s o n s ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Is th a t t r u e ?

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
w o u ld s t il l b e th e s a m e .

Th e p r o c e s s …

N o t h a t is t r u e b u t th e p r o c e s s

The funds that you would need to cover the

c o s t o f a r e n t a l a s p a r t o f y o u r – a s p a r t o f y o u r s a f e ty p r o c e d u r e s
20

c o m e s fr o m th e O p e n A c c o u n t n o t t h e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s A c c o u n t .

And

y o u h a v e t o h a v e a p r o p e r m o t iv a ti o n a s t o w h y a n d t h e r e m u s t b e a
r is k a s s e s s m e n t a s to w h y y o u h a v e to s t a y s o m e w h e r e e ls e . A n d i n
t h is c a s e t h e m o t iv a ti o n d o e s n o t s p e a k t o t h e r e a s o n a s t o w h y Mr
L a z a r u s – t h e a c t u a l r e a s o n a c c o r d in g t o N a i d o o – C o lo n e l N a id o o a s
to why Mr Lazarus stayed there.

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B u t th e n is i t c o r r e c t t h a t o r r a t h e r

le t m e a s k y o u t h e q u e s ti o n . Ar e t h e r e a n y i n s t a n c e s w h e r e s t a te f u n d s
fr o m th e S e c r e t S e r v ic e s Ac c o u n t c a n b e u s e d to h o u s e a m e m b e r o f
t h e p o li c e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:
t h e n i t is p o s s ib le .

C h a ir i f i t is f o r o ffi c i a l p u r p o s e s

B u t i t is h ig h l y u n lik e ly.

B e c a u s e y o u w o u ld n o t

h a v e p o l ic e m e n s t a y i n g a t – a t th a t k in d – a t t h a t p r e m is e s .
p r e m is e s i s b e i n g u ti li s e d f o r s o m e t h i n g e ls e .

That

I t is b e i n g u t ili s e d f o r

c o n d u c t in g y o u r w o r k , s e e in g i n f o r m e r s , s e e i n g a g e n ts a n d t h a t k i n d o f
10

t h i n g . I t is n o t { i n d is ti n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u c a n n o t l iv e i n i t ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir y o u c a n n o t l iv e i n i t . I t

is n o t [i n d is ti n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n g o t h e r e fo r m e e ti n g s o r w h a t e v e r o p e r a ti o n s
b u t y o u c a n n o t li v e in i t a s a m e m b e r o f t h e p o l ic e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

N o C h a ir y o u c a n n o t b e c a u s e

t h e n y o u b e n e f it e d fr o m – b e n e fi ti n g fr o m – fr o m th a t s a f e h o u s e i n
y o u r p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

A n d th e n y o u a r e n o t a ll o w e d t o

do that.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e n e x t th in g – o r r a t h e r w h a t is

t h e s t a tu s o f t h is in v e s t i g a t io n M r R o e l o fs e ?
MR KOBUS DEMEYER ROELOFSE:

T h is i n v e s t ig a ti o n w a s d e a lt w i t h

– w a s d e a lt w i t h a n d t h e n – a n d th e – a n d w e r e c e iv e d th e – t h e

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
d o c u m e n t a ti o n r e la t in g t o th is .

Th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n h a s n o t b e e n

d e c l a s s i fi e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

T h e n e x t i n v e s ti g a ti o n t h a t y o u d e a l

w i t h is t it l e d G e n e r a l L a z a r u s a b u s e o f S S A – p u r c h a s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e a t f o u r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O f v e h i c le s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M a y b e n o w i s a n o p p o r tu n e t i m e ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e – w e w il l s t o p w i t h y o u r e v id e n c e M r R o e l o f s e
10

n o w a n d w e w i ll p r o c e e d t o m o r r o w a t te n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir b e fo r e w e d o w i th y o u r l e a v e I

w o u ld l ik e t o p l a c e i t o n r e c o r d t h a t C o lo n e l N a id o o is in fa c t a w i tn e s s
w h o w i ll b e c a l l e d b y th e c o m m i s s i o n . B y v ir t u e o f t h e f a c t t h a t h e h a s
been

p la c e d

under

the

witness

p r o t e c t io n

program

th e r e

is

an

a p p lic a ti o n t h a t w il l b r o u g h t b e f o r e y o u C h a ir in d u e c o u r s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m – I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r y o u s h o u l d p r o c e e d w i th
t h a t m a t te r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

And I…

W e a r e g o in g t o a d jo u r n .

c h a m b e r s i n r e g a r d t o t h e o t h e r m a t te r.
n o w.

Yo u c a n a p p r o a c h m e i n

W e a r e g o i n g to a d j o u r n f o r

It m a y o r m a y n o t b e t h a t w e w il l r e s u m e t o d e a l w i t h a n o t h e r

m a t t e r o r I m i g h t d e a l w i th it in c h a m b e r s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A s it p l e a s e s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .

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17 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 165
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 8 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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