C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N T O S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K T O W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

16 OCTOBER 2019

D AY 1 8 1
FINAL

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
PROCEEDINGS COMMENCE ON 16 OCTOBER 2019
CHAIRPERSON:

Good

morning

Ms

Gcabashe,

good

morning

e v e r y b o d y.
ADV GCABASHE: Good morning DCJ.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a r e y o u r e a d y ? A r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s D C J I a m r e a d y. D C J t h i s m o r n i n g w e h a v e M s
R o c k m a n w h o i s a f o r m e r D G i n t h e o ff i c e o f t h e P r e m i e r a n d f o r m e r
MEC for Finance in the Free State Provincial Government. She is here
DCJ as an implicated party but has all along indicated that she is quite
10

willing to assist this Commission.

Her documentation DCJ is to be

f o u n d i n E x h i b i t H H 1 3 . T h e r e a r e f o u r v o l u m e s t o H H 1 3 . I t i s Vo l u m e
A , B , C a n d t h e n Vo l u m e D h a s a s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I s e e t h a t t h e o n e t h a t h a s a s u p p l e m e n t a r y

a ff i d a v i t i s n o t m a r k e d D .
ADV GCABASHE:

It is HH13, 13.1.

I have been corrected by my

colleagues.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y.
A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a t i s t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t t h a t w e r e c e i v e d
d a y b e f o r e y e s t e r d a y.
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CHAIRPERSON: Is – has 13.1 been admitted already or not really?
ADV GCABASHE: Even 13 has not been admitted.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE: Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H m .
ADV GCABASHE: So ...(intervenes).

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

We will be relying also on the usual reference

bundles that we have been using for all the Estina witnesses.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE: I do not know if you would like the witness to first
m a k e a ff i r m a t i o n w h i c h s h e p r e f e r s t o d o a n d t h e n y o u a d m i t t h e
Exhibits into the record of if you are prepared to do that now before
s h e m a k e s a ff i r m a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay well actually let us try and get her to – let her
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d o t h e a ff i r m a t i o n f i r s t . P l e a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e a ff i r m a t i o n .
REGISTRAR: Please state your full names for the record?
MS ROCKMAN: Elizabeth Cornelia Rockman.
REGISTRAR:

Do you have any objection to making the prescribed

a ff i r m a t i o n ?
MS ROCKMAN: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u s o l e m n l y a ff i r m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i l l g i v e

shall be the truth; the whole truth and nothing but the truth, if so please
r a i s e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, I t r u l y a ff i r m ?
M S R O C K M A N : I t r u l y a ff i r m .
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CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe before you proceed Ms Gcabashe shouldn’t

her legal representatives place themselves on record?
A D V G C A B A S H E : M r R o e l o ff z e h a s d o n e t h a t p r e v i o u s l y C h a i r m a n b u t
I think that it is opposite.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: Apposite for him to do so now because I noticed on the

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
transcript.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: They did not get his name.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Right.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V G C A B A S H E : S o I w i l l g i v e h i m t h e o p p o r t u n i t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : To c o r r e c t t h a t .
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CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV ROELOFFZE:

May it please you DCJ. I am instructed to appear

on behalf of Ms Rockman in this matter on the instruction of Boqwana
Burns Attorneys.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thank you.
ADV ROELOFFZE:

My instructing attorney is Mr Brett Murison from

Boqwana Burns Attorneys.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV ROELOFFZE:

Sorry DCJ. Apparently I must place my full names

o n r e c o r d s o I a m A l e x a n d e r R o e l o ff z e w h o a p p e a r s f o r M s R o c k m a n .
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My surname if spelt R-o-e-l-o-f-f-z-e.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
ADV ROELOFFZE:

It is an unusual spelling.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you.
ADV ROELOFFZE:

Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: (African language) decision.

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CHAIRPERSON:

I do not know why Ms Gcabashe wants your full

names.
ADV GCABASHE: Maybe it is because they gave me a supplementary
a ff i d a v i t t h e d a y b e f o r e y e s t e r d a y D C J . T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u D C J .
CHAIRPERSON:

Well actually that reminds me.

The transcribers I

suppose are listening. I previously asked somebody to speak to them
to say in the transcript there is no need for them to write the full names
of a person as they appear in the ID all the time when they refer to the
person.
Yo u l o o k a t v a r i o u s t r a n s c r i p t s t h e y h a v e g o t A d v o c a t e P a u l

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Joseph Pretorius each time they refer to him.

It is Advocate Paul

Joseph Pretorius – I mean it is enough at the beginning as far as
counsel is concerned if you have got his or her initials and the surname
and for the rest in the transcript you just refer to Ms Gcabashe or Adv
Gcabashe, Adv Pretorius.
In the end I think that writing all those full names takes a lot of
s p a c e a n d i n c r e a s e s c o s t s u n n e c e s s a r i l y.

So transcribers please do

not do that.
If it is a witness at the beginning when the witness takes the
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o a t h o r d o e s t h e a ff i r m a t i o n t h e y g i v e t h e i r f u l l n a m e s . A f t e r t h a t y o u
do not have to write all their names each time there is a reference to
them or each time they give an answer to a question.
O k a y, a l r i g h t . M s G c a b a s h e I t h i n k a t l e a s t t h a t i s t a k e n c a r e
o f n o w.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chairman.

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CHAIRPERSON: So I do not know if the – they have been writing your
f u l l n a m e s a s w e l l . Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

Chairman so we go back to the record and the

a d m i s s i o n o f E x h i b i t H H 1 3 Vo l u m e s A , B a n d C t o t h e r e c o r d a n d t h e n
a l s o E x h i b i t H H 1 3 Vo l u m e – t h e Vo l u m e m a r k e d 1 3 . 1 .

We ask that

those with particular documents be admitted to the record?
C H A I R P E R S O N : A h a s g o t M s R o c k m a n ’s m a i n s t a t e m e n t o r a ff i d a v i t ,
is that right?
ADV GCABASHE: That is correct Chairman.
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CHAIRPERSON:

And Annexures B and C contain just Annexures, is

that right?
A D V G C A B A S H E : To Vo l u m e A t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To Vo l u m e – j a .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To h e r m a i n s t a t e m e n t o r a ff i d a v i t . A n d t h e n H H 1 3 . 1
i s h e r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t a n d A n n e x u r e s t o t h a t a ff i d a v i t ?
ADV GCABASHE: That is correct Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV GCABASHE:
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S a f e t o s a y t h a t Vo l u m e A a l s o h a s t h e f i r s t f e w

annexures.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV GCABASHE: So it is the statement.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no.
ADV GCABASHE: With Annexures.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: And then it continues.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . T h e l e v e r a r c h f i l e c o n t a i n i n g M s R o c k m a n ’s m a i n
a ff i d a v i t o r s t a t e m e n t a n d A n n e x u r e s i s a d m i t t e d a n d w i l l b e m a r k e d a s
Exhibit HH13A. There are two other lever arch files they are marked –
t h e y a r e t o b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t H H 1 3 B a n d E x h i b i t H H 1 3 C r e s p e c t i v e l y.
E a c h o f t h e m c o n t a i n s A n n e x u r e s t o M s R o c k m a n ’s m a i n s t a t e m e n t o r
a ff i d a v i t .
another

And those two are admitted as well.
lever

arch

file

containing

Ms

And then that is –

R o c k m a n ’s

supplementary

a ff i d a v i t o r s t a t e m e n t w i t h c e r t a i n A n n e x u r e s – i t w i l l b e m a r k e d a s
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Exhibit HH13.1.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Can I proceed?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Before you proceed I just want to say something
a b o u t M s R o c k m a n ’s e v i d e n c e – s t a t e m e n t .

Ms Rockman I have read

your main statement. I have had a look at the supplementary statement.
The impression I have is that most of the things that you deal with are
u n l i k e l y t o b e c o n t r o v e r s i a l o r a r e u n l i k e l y t o b e d i s p u t e d b y a n y b o d y.
Of course there are some which may be disputed.
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In order to use our time profitably I do not want us to spend a
l o t o f t i m e o n o r a l e v i d e n c e t h a t i s u n l i k e l y t o b e d i s p u t e d b y a n y b o d y.
I t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t b u t i t i s t h e r e – i t i s i n a n a ff i d a v i t .

Whenever I

n e e d t o l o o k a t i t I c a n l o o k a t i t . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So Ms Gcabashe will approach your evidence and

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lead you in a manner that I believe will take account of what I am
saying.
MS ROCKMAN: That is fine.
CHAIRPERSON: A lot of things that are common cause like somebody
w r o t e a l e t t e r t o s o m e b o d y, a b i l l w a s p a s s e d , r e s o l u t i o n w a s m a d e .
Insofar as those are non-controversial I do not want us to spend too
much time on them.
MS ROCKMAN: That is fine.
CHAIRPERSON:
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The areas which I would like oral evidence to focus

on are areas which show that there may have been corruption. There
may have been non-compliance with procedures. There may have been
undue influence.

There may have been some of the issues that are

covered in the terms of reference in circumstances where that might be
in dispute.
Now some witnesses have already given evidence in the
Commission in relation to the – Estina and Ms Gcabashe is aware of
some of the areas where somebody might have given evidence that is
not in – that is not consistent with what you are saying.
So it may be that we are not going to take too long in terms of
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oral evidence.

That is not necessarily because your evidence is not

important it might just be because a lot of it is unlikely to be disputed
o r c o n t r o v e r s i a l . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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MS ROCKMAN: That is fine.
CHAIRPERSON: Alright. And obviously your counsel also hears what I
am saying.

I can always go and read what you have written here.

O k a y. B u t t h e r e a r e a r e a s w h e r e I a m i n t e r e s t e d . O n e o f t h e m i s t h e
issue of transfer payments and implementing agents but there are other
areas that Ms Gcabashe will explore. But I do not expect us to be too
l o n g i n t e r m s o f y o u r o r a l e v i d e n c e . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M s G c a b a s h e .
ADV GCABASHE:

Thank you Chairman.

Ms Rockman you have

familiarised yourself with the files that are on the witness table?
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M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

C a n y o u p l e a s e l o o k a t Vo l u m e A w h i c h h a s y o u r

main statement. And if you turn to page 4 thereof can you confirm the
n a m e t h a t i s r e c o r d e d t h e r e a n d t h a t t h a t i s y o u r a ff i d a v i t ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s i t i s .
ADV GCABASHE:

And in everything you say you will always be

addressing the Chairman so I may ask the questions but the responses
go to the Chairman.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : I f y o u t h e n g o t o p a g e 11 2 o f t h e s a m e f i l e . C o u l d
20

you confirm whether that is your signature, confirm the date of
signature and the place of signature of what you are saying is your
a ff i d a v i t ?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s i t i s m y s i g n a t u r e .

It was signed on the 13th of

August 2019.
ADV GCABASHE:

And the place of signature?

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN: Bloemfontein.
ADV GCABASHE:

Thank you.

Let us do the same exercise with the

s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t w h i c h i s i n F i l e H H 1 3 . 1 .

If you then go to

paginated page 1.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Again could you confirm that that is your name and
t h a t i t i s y o u r a ff i d a v i t ?
MS ROCKMAN: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: If you turn to page 44 and 45. On page 44 there is
10

a signature.

O n p a g e 4 5 t h e r e s t o f t h e d e t a i l s a p p e a r.

Whose

signature is reflected on page 44?
MS ROCKMAN:

That is my signature and I signed it on the 13th of

October in Bloemfontein.
ADV GCABASHE: Excellent thank you very much. Can we go to just
broad introductory questions?
indicated by the Chairman.

I am going to try and be brief as
But the questions I will be asking are

a c t u a l l y i m p o r t a n t . Yo u r c u r r e n t o c c u p a t i o n , w h a t d o y o u d o r i g h t n o w ?
MS ROCKMAN:

I did not return to the Legislature after the elections

e a r l i e r t h i s y e a r. I a m p r i m a r i l y k e e p i n g m y s e l f b u s y i n t h e N P O s e c t o r
20

and it felt like I have been working for the Commission preparing the
a ff i d a v i t f o r t h e p a s t f e w m o n t h s .
ADV GCABASHE: In the NPO sector you said?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: What is NPO
MS ROCKMAN: Non Profit. Non Profit Organisations.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: Oh okay as NGO.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
A D V G C A B A S H E : I k n o w i t a s a d i ff e r e n t a c r o n y m b u t t h a n k y o u . T h a t
is fine. When I get to your positions as DG and MEC I will talk a little
bit about your qualifications for those particular jobs in context. But for
current purposes can I just indicate that you are aware that we are
d e a l i n g w i t h t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t i n v e s t i g a t i o n .
MS ROCKMAN: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: With regard to this particular project the questions
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that we will be asking will relate to these themes.

The first theme is

whether provision was made by the Department of Agriculture and Rural
D e v e l o p m e n t f o r t h e p a y m e n t o f R 11 4 m i l l i o n p e r a n n u m o v e r t h e t h r e e
year period of the Estina Agreement.
That is a critical issue because you were both during that
t h r e e y e a r p e r i o d i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e a n d t h e n y o u w e r e M E C
F i n a n c e . Yo u a r e w i t h m e o n t h a t t h e n ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: I will also then be putting to you matters raised by
Mr Jankielsohn in his evidence. Roy Jankielsohn and by Mr Moremi –
20

Moses Moremi whose testimonies have implicated you to a certain
extent.
I know that you have received Rule 3.3 Notices in this regard.
Is that correct?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV GCABASHE:

In addition the Commission is interested in the

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
o v e r s i g h t r o l e t h a t t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y p l a y e d i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e
t r a n s p a r e n t e ff e c t i v e a n d e ff i c i e n t u s e o f f u n d s t h a t w e r e a l l o c a t e d t o
this dairy project as well as the assets that were acquired on behalf of
the so called beneficiaries.
Included in this discussion will be information regarding the
accounting treatment of transfer payments which the Chairman has
indicated he is interested in and of course of the whole issue
surrounding implementing agents.
There appears to have been regular non-compliance by the
10

Department of Agriculture and Rural Development with the SCM
procedures. That is the Supply Chain Management Procedures. Again
that is an area that I would think falls under your remit. I now address
y o u a s t h e f o r m e r M E C o f Tr e a s u r y. W o u l d t h a t b e c o r r e c t ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

The other area that we will then deal with very

briefly to an extent regards the broader issues that arise under term of
reference 1.4 – I beg your pardon. 1.1, 1.4, 1.6 and 1.9 and I am just
going to paraphrase what those essentially speak to.
These issues really will try and elicit from you your knowledge
20

or observations if any with regard to undue benefits that accrued to the
Gupta family or Gupta entities if I might call them that. Gupta related
entities or any other family or entity including the facilitation of the
unlawful award of tenders.

The nature and extent and irregularities.

Undue enrichment, corruption and undue influence if any in the
a w a r d i n g o f c o n t r a c t s a n d w h e t h e r a n y p u b l i c o ff i c i a l o r f u n c t i o n a r y

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
influenced the awarding of tenders to benefit themselves, their families
or entities in which they held a personal interest.
So that is an area that the Commission has been tasked with
in terms of our terms of reference.
background very briefly?

Can I just go through your

How long were you employed in the Free

State Provincial Government just in terms of years?
MS ROCKMAN:
elections.

I joined Provincial Government after the 2009 general

Initially as the Head of Monitoring and Evaluation in the

o ff i c e o f t h e P r e m i e r. T h e n I w a s t h e a c t i n g H O D o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
10

E c o n o m i c D e v e l o p m e n t To u r i s m E n v i r o n m e n t a l A ff a i r s f o r a b r i e f p e r i o d
in 2010 until I was appointed as Director General around September
2010 up to March 2013 when I became a member of the Legislature.
A D V G C A B A S H E : D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: And then in 2013 – March 2013 you were appointed
MEC for ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s I b e c a m e a M e m b e r o f t h e L e g i s l a t u r e a n d t h e n

subsequently MEC Finance.
A D V G C A B A S H E : E x c e l l e n t . Yo u r a p p o i n t m e n t a s D G i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s
20

o ff i c e w e r e y o u h e a d h u n t e d f o r t h a t p a r t i c u l a r p o s i t i o n ? D i d y o u a p p l y
for it?
MS ROCKMAN: No I applied.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a p p l i e d f o r i t ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s
ADV GCABASHE:

And what do you believe qualified you for that

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
position?
MS ROCKMAN: By then I was the secretary to the Legislature for 15
years between 1994 to 2009.

I hold BA Languages degree and an

Honours in English from the University of the Free State. I think I was
a n e x p e r i e n c e a d m i n i s t r a t o r.

Though more in the Legislative sector

than in the Executive branch of government. So I think in terms of both
skills and experience I had a good background understanding of the
environment and specifically the political interface and administrative
interface.
10

It is a particularly challenging environment to be in for any
Director General or Head of Department.
ADV GCABASHE:

In fact that is an area of interest for this

Commission because one of the recommendations the Chairman has to
make is – concerns how well that interface works because at the end of
the day we have three branches of government. And it is whether there
is influence that permeates from one to the other that creates this
undue influence, corruption etcetera.
So I will be asking you one or two questions around that. We
will get to that in just a minute. The – we have been told that the Free
20

State Government would regularly hold meetings Lekgotla, did you
attend those?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s I d i d .
ADV GCABASHE:

Is that one of the areas where this interface

between politics and administration would come to the fore?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s i t w o u l d .

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ADV GCABASHE:

W e w i l l g e t t o i t i n a m i n u t e u n d e r a d i ff e r e n t

question.
M S R O C K M A N : O k a y.
ADV GCABASHE: I just want you to flag that. I am also interested in
whether you met Mr Thabethe before Mr Thabethe being the former
HOD of the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development? Did you
meet him before you became DG or only when you became DG in the
P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e ?
MS ROCKMAN:
10

No I met him before.

When he was appointed HOD

R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t I t h i n k t h a t w a s i n 2 0 11 I t h i n k b y t h e n I w a s s t i l l
H e a d o f M o n i t o r i n g a n d E v a l u a t i o n . S o I h a d m e t h i m i n t h a t c a p a c i t y.
ADV GCABASHE: What I am interested in in that score and I suppose
i t d o e s n o t j u s t a p p l y t o M r T h a b e t h e b u t t o a l l H O D ’s .

Sitting in the

P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e a s D G i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e w h a t w a s t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p
y o u w e r e e x p e c t e d t o h a v e w i t h H O D ’s ? A n d r e a l l y I w o u l d r e a l l y – I
am trying just to explore whether there was anything untoward.

Is

there anything the Commission needs to note within the context of
making recommendations on how better to manage those relationships?
MS ROCKMAN: No I do not think so. We have what we call and I think
20

it applies to all provinces. There is the forum of Heads of Departments
forward – at national level it is called FORD. Where in the province it
is where the DG and all Heads of Departments meet on a regular basis
basically almost every second week for coordination purposes whether
it relates to matters of – with the public service, whether it relates to
programs

of

provincial

government,

preparation

Page 15 of 190

for

Lekgotla,

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
implementing Exco resolutions, preparing for Exco meetings and so
forth.
So it is an important forum.
constructive.

It needs to be active and

M a n y d e p a r t m e n t s w o u l d a l s o f o r e x a m p l e Tr e a s u r y

would present their technical reports, quarterly income and expenditure
reports, trends in irregular expenditure, preparations for audit.

All of

those technical work goes through FORD and ideally from FORD it will
feed into the Executive Council.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

So by the time that Mr Thabethe signed the

agreement with Estina on the 5th of June 2012 you had met him a
number of times?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

Did he tell you about the deviation that he was

either about to embark on in relation to the appointment of an
i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t f o r t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t o r d i d y o u h e a r o f i t b y
the way?
MS ROCKMAN:

No when the matter came to Exco in June 2012 the

memorandum did not indicate that the contract had already been
signed.
20

That we only realised after that meeting when there was a

r e q u e s t f o r t h e Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e t o c o n v e n e a n d f i n d a d d i t i o n a l
f u n d i n g t o – f o r – t o a l l o c a t e t o t h i s Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t . I t w a s o n l y
then that we realised but the contract was signed before the Exco
meeting.

Not that it had a material impact because the Executive

Council itself had no authority to enter into contracts. But it was about
the political support for the project. But it was not disclosed that the

Page 16 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
contract had already been signed.
ADV GCABASHE: But you are saying that in terms of your own rules
and conventions, excuse me, there was nothing irregular about Mr
Thabethe signing the contract prior to getting approval from Exco for
the implementation of the project?
MS ROCKMAN: Mr Thabethe or at least the Department of Agriculture
a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t h a d b e e n p r e s e n t i n g o n M o h a m a M o b u n g ’s
s t r a t e g i e s s i n c e e a r l y 2 0 11 I t h i n k .
project.
10

So it was not a completely new

We were not surprised oh suddenly here is a project. There

was a build-up on how Mohama Mobung was introduced as a strategy
t h r o u g h t h e c o u r s e o f 2 0 11 .
I

think

we

do

make

reference

to

quite

a

number

of

presentations.
ADV GCABASHE: I am going to take you to those.
M S R O C K M A N : O k a y.
ADV GCABASHE: Presently if you do not mind. I really am just trying
to set the basic groundwork for your relationship – for understanding
your relationship not just with Mr Thabethe as HOD but also with other
H O D ’s .
20

was

Because the impression one gets is that quite a lot of power

centralised

in

the

P r e m i e r ’s

o ff i c e .

Is

that

an

incorrect

impression?
MS ROCKMAN:

T h e r e w a s m o r e o f a p e r c e p t i o n b u t t h e P r e m i e r ’s

o ff i c e a s a c o - o r d i n a t i n g s t r u c t u r e f o r t h e p r o v i n c e a t t h e – I w a s t r y i n g
to put together a list of the number of forums that operated or was coo r d i n a t e d t h r o u g h t h e o ff i c e o f t h e P r e m i e r.

Page 17 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Yo u w o u l d h a v e y o u r I C T F o r u m . Yo u w o u l d h a v e y o u r s e c u r i t y
m a n a g e r s . Yo u w o u l d h a v e H R . Yo u w o u l d h a v e c o m m u n i c a t i o n s . N o t
every department can have 20, 30 communication people but if you
b r i n g a l l o f t h e m f o r e x a m p l e t o g e t h e r y o u h a v e a s t r o n g e r, m o r e
e ff i c i e n t s t r u c t u r e .
So there was a lot of emphasis in 2009 that term of
government that came in. It was a lot of emphasis on the introduction
of the outcome based approached to government. The 12 priority areas
and breaking down the silos that government worked in – where the left
10

hand did not know what the right hand was doing. So I think a lot of
stronger emphasis cam on co-ordination and a lot of it was perceived
as more control than what it might necessarily have been.
ADV GCABASHE: Well you see I ask the question also in the context
o f M r T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e .

We know about the letter that you had

written centralising the advice that departments – I beg your pardon it
is really contracts that we would be signed by departments centralising
t h a t i n – w i t h t h e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s w h o s a t i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e .
Yo u c a l l t h a t l e t t e r t h a t s a i d a l l c o n t r a c t s s h o u l d c o m e
t h r o u g h t h e S t a t e L a w A d v i s o r s i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e ?
20

MS ROCKMAN:

I think it was more that no department should enter

into contracts committing Government without at least clearing it with
the State Law Advisors.

There was a lot of contracts that we had

discovered that departments were entering into that was necessarily in
the interest of Government in various departments.
We also had the problem that come audit the Auditor-General

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
would obtain from the State Law Advisors the database of cases which
w i l l i n d i c a t e y o u r l i a b i l i t y.

When you compared that database to what

d e p a r t m e n t s w e r e d i s c l o s i n g i t w a s d i ff e r e n t s t o r i e s . S o w e t r y t o s a y
let everyone feed into one database.
We tried to strengthen some of the departments who did not
h a v e a d e q u a t e l e g a l c a p a c i t y.

Not all departments had properly fully

f l e d g e d l e g a l c a p a c i t y i n t e r n a l l y. A s w a s t h e c a s e w i t h m u n i c i p a l i t i e s .
ADV GCABASHE:

Chairman, just for purposes of the record those

letters are contained in Reference File B for Barry from pages 5-5-1
10

through to 5-5-3 ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV GCABASHE: And there is one more at 5-4-9 that deals with this
particular issue ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV GCABASHE: But I think that Ms Rockman has given us a general
explanation that includes what happened in respect of these particular
letters. We – what of interest Ms Rockman in relation to this which we
will again explore a little later is that when Mr Thabethe signed that
agreement on the 5th of June he had not processed it through the State

20

L a w A d v i s o r s O ff i c e i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e . T h a t i s c o r r e c t ?
MS ROCKMAN: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: And you are saying it was a directive but one that
c o u l d b e i g n o r e d ? I d o n o t k n o w.
MS ROCKMAN:

Well it was ignored.

Whether it could have been

i g n o r e d o r s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i g n o r e d i s a d i ff e r e n t m a t t e r.

Page 19 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE:

But would – under the normal course would

d i s c i p l i n a r y s t e p s b e t a k e n a g a i n s t a n o ff i c i a l w h o f a i l e d t o c o m p l y w i t h
a d i r e c t i v e f r o m t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e ?
M S R O C K M A N : N o t e a s i l y. N o t a t a n H O D l e v e l b e c a u s e h e w o u l d n o t
have signed the contract without at least his MEC.

The responsible

MEC knowing the – that he had entered into the contract. If the MEC
did not know that he had entered into the contract certainly the MEC
would have taken action.
ADV GCABASHE: Or ought to have taken action?
10

MS ROCKMAN: Ought to have, yes.
ADV GCABASHE: We again will come back to that in a bit more detail
because of course the State Law Advisors when they eventually did see
this particular contract found that it was invalid and a new contract was
drafted and signed on the 5th and 7th of July and that really became the
operative contract?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: But again coming back to what we really are talking
a b o u t i t i s t h a t r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e a n d t h e
p o w e r s t h a t r e s i d e w h e t h e r r e a l o r p e r c e i v e d i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e

20

and from your particular perspective as the DG. If there is anything in
that that South Africans need to be wary of or need to be careful about
is really what I am exploring for purposes of recommendations that the
Chairman might wish to make.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Going back to the – whether the directive was

required to be complied with or could be not. I would have thought that

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
it being a directive it was required to be complied with as opposed to if
it was just a guideline.
MS ROCKMAN: I think that is appropriate.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chairman. Then the next question again
i n r e l a t i o n t o y o u r f u n c t i o n s i n t h e – a s D G i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e i s
t h e f o l l o w i n g ; d i d y o u n e g o t i a t e c o n t r a c t s o n b e h a l f o f t h e P r e m i e r ’s
O ff i c e ?
MS ROCKMAN: No.
10

ADV GCABASHE:

If I can just fast forward for one second. As MEC

Finance were you expected to negotiate contracts on behalf of the
P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e o r t h e F r e e S t a t e G o v e r n m e n t ?
MS ROCKMAN: No.
ADV GCABASHE:

I ask this because I am trying to understand who

would have had the competence to deal with that Estina contract and
then thereafter with the FDC contracts but maybe for current purposes I
s h o u l d a s k t h i s q u e s t i o n . O n c e E x c o h a s t a k e n a r e s o l u t i o n d o H O D ’s
t a k e i n s t r u c t i o n o n h o w t o i m p l e m e n t t h a t r e s o l u t i o n o r d o H O D ’s s i m p l y
ask for guidance in the implementation of that resolution?
20

MS ROCKMAN: I would think that the HOD is responsible to implement
an Exco resolution within the confines of applicable laws. Exco cannot
s a y g o b u y 1 0 h o u s e s a n d a n H O D s e t s o ff a n d r a n d o m l y p i c k s 1 0
houses and buys them.

The procedures must still be followed.

So

whatever Exco decides must be done within the prescripts if it is the
PFMA it is the PFMA.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
If it is preferential procurement framework all the applicable
legislation must be followed. There was a thing that we used to say an
Exco decision does not constitute a procurement process.
ADV GCABASHE: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN:

That was the bottom line.

Regardless of what Exco

had decided you still had to follow whatever process if you want to
enter into whether it is a contract procurement does not matter what.
ADV GCABASHE:

Staying with Exco did the subcommittees of Exco

that existed have decision making powers and – that is the first
10

question. Maybe I should let you answer that.
MS ROCKMAN:
the

clusters

They would make recommendations.
that

you

are

referring

to.

They

That would be
would

make

recommendations to Exco.
ADV GCABASHE:

Did

the

Premier

preside

over

any

of

those

subcommittees of Exco?
MS ROCKMAN:

Not of the clusters.

H e w a s c h a i r i n g t h e Tr e a s u r y

C o m m i t t e e b u t t h e Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e i s n o t p a r t o f t h e c l u s t e r s .
Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e i s Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e . I t i s a s e p a r a t e s t r u c t u r e
with terms of reference. It was chaired by the Premier and the Deputy
20

C h a i r w a s t h e r e l e v a n t M E C F i n a n c e a n d t h e n a f e w o t h e r M E C ’s , H O D
Tr e a s u r y a n d s o f o r t h .
ADV GCABASHE:

I find that quite interesting.

So maybe you should

just elaborate very briefly for us but then my picture really is a national
picture.

I c a n n o t s e e t h e P r e s i d e n t s i t t i n g i n a n d c h a i r i n g a Tr e a s u r y

Committee.

That is what the Minister is supposed to do and that is

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
w h a t t h e P F M A e x p e c t s o f t h e M i n i s t e r.
So if we transpose that illustration to the Provincial level I
f i n d i t c u r i o u s t h a t t h e P r e m i e r w o u l d b e c h a i r i n g t h e Tr e a s u r y
Committee. Maybe you just want to explain to us why that would have
fitted with the provisions of the PFMA and any other legislative
prescripts that are relevant.
MS ROCKMAN: That is how the memorandum was brought to Exco to
s a y w e – t h a t w a s w h e n I w a s D G – m y p r e d e c e s s o r. I p r e s u m e t h a t i n
t h e c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y r e m e m b e r a t t h a t s t a g e S e c t i o n
10

1 0 0 ( A ) h a d b e e n i m p l e m e n t e d . S o t h i s w a s t h e Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e s e t
u p a r o u n d s o m e w h e r e i n 2 0 11 .
I t h i n k J u l y / A u g u s t 2 0 11 . T h a t i s t h e – p r e v i o u s l y t h e t e r m s
of reference was not formalised. It was then formalised like that but in
practice the practical budget preparations and so forth was centred
a r o u n d Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e m e m b e r s b u t i t w a s e x t e n d e d t o b e m o r e
consultative.
We included for example some of the District Mayors, the
M e t r o M a y o r, o t h e r M E C ’s , o t h e r H O D ’s .

It became a broader task

team than the few people that were in the terms of reference as the 20

the task team but the Premier – the former Premier practically seldom if
e v e r a c t u a l l y c h a i r e d a Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e M e e t i n g .
ADV GCABASHE: So it was just that in terms of form he could attend?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: But most of the time he in fact did not attend those
meetings?

Page 23 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: I am really trying to understand where the power lay
in influencing decisions and this is why I ask you the question but I am
satisfied that you are saying that in reality this particular premier
hardly attended those particular meetings.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : I n o t i c e a l s o t h a t a s D G i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e a n d
a s M E C o f F i n a n c e y o u h e l d m e e t i n g s w i t h M r To n y G u p t a o n a n u m b e r
of occasions between November 2012 and 2014.
10

Is my information

correct?
MS ROCKMAN:

I think it starts – the engagement with the Gupta

f a m i l y a n d a s s o c i a t e s p r e d a t e s t h a t b y f a r. I t s t a r t s i n J u l y 2 0 1 0 w h e n
the New Age made a presentation to the Executive Council to get
support for advertisements.

So between 2010 to almost 2013 my

engagements was mostly with Mr Ashok Narayan and Mr Nazeem Howa.
I n – I t h i n k – A u g u s t 2 0 11 I w a s o n t h e w a y t o a n E x c o m e e t i n g
in Bethlehem.

It started the afternoon.

I was informed that I was to

meet people from the New Age.
ADV GCABASHE: Who informed you that you were to meet them?
20

M S R O C K M A N : I w a s c a l l e d b y t h e P r e m i e r.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . C o n t i n u e .
M S R O C K M A N : To s a y t h e y w e r e a t t h e m e e t i n g . T h e y w a n t e d t o m e e t
before the Exco started.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

So I do not know who organised the logistics of the

Page 24 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
meeting. We were then – the purpose of that meeting turned out to be
– they presented a proposal where we should enter into a subscription
agreement to …(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: For the New Age?
MS ROCKMAN:

For the New Age.

One of the Gupta brothers was

present but unfortunately ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
MS ROCKMAN: I cannot remember ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t r e p e a t t h a t s e n t e n c e . O n e o f t h e m
10

was what?
MS ROCKMAN:

One

of

them

was

present

at

that

meeting

in

…(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: One of the Gupta brothers.
CHAIRPERSON: One of the Gupta brothers?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But you cannot remember which one?
MS ROCKMAN: Cannot remember which one.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS ROCKMAN:

T h a t w a s A u g u s t 2 0 11 .

Then in May 2012 there was

the first business breakfast.
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e f o r e y o u m o v e a w a y f r o m t h e A u g u s t 2 0 11 .

Yo u s a y t h i s w a s a P r o v i n c i a l E x c o C o m m i t t e e ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .

Page 25 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
CHAIRPERSON: Which was to be held in Bethlehem?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a y y o u d o n o t k n o w w h o h a d a r r a n g e d – h a d

made arrangements for the logistics of the Exco ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Meeting?
MS ROCKMAN: No. For them to be present in Bethlehem.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

What you do not know is who had arranged or

approved that they should be present?
10

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But it was the Premier who called you and said you

should meet with should meet with them before ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: The meeting?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A l r i g h t .
MS ROCKMAN: It ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS ROCKMAN:
20

Because the engagement was between Exco and

Dihlabeng Local Municipalities. So it was not part of our Exco meeting.
It was also not strange for private people to show up at venues where
we had Exco meetings.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : I t w a s n o t h i n g o u t o f t h e o r d i n a r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE: Can I ask you this question as you pause? So this
was a pitch by New Age to the Provincial Government not to various
departments

–

individual

departments

within

the

Provincial

Government?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

T h e i d e a w a s t h a t O ff i c e o f t h e P r e m i e r w o u l d

enter into the subscription agreement on behalf of all departments.
10

Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

Was that something the Premier did quite often

enter into particular contracts on behalf of every single department?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

At that time I think we were moving towards

transversal contracts. We for example used the media bulk buyer that
would buy advertise – advert – advertising space in newspapers. The
c o o r d i n a t i o n w a s j u s t e a s i e r.

I n s t e a d o f h a v i n g 11 d e p a r t m e n t s

a d v e r t i s i n g p o s t s i n t h e s a m e w e e k i n 11 – y o u k n o w d i ff e r e n t
newspapers.
I t w a s v e r y h a p h a z a r d . S o i t s e e m e d t o b e e a s i e r. S o y e s .
20

It was something that we were moving towards.
ADV GCABASHE:

So you were continuing to tell us this was really

y o u r f i r s t e x p o s u r e t o t h e G u p t a f a m i l y / G u p t a e n t i t i e s . Yo u a r e g o i n g t o
continue and ...(intervenes),
MS ROCKMAN: With one of the ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Bring us through to ...(intervenes).

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN: With one of the family itself.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: I mean the others Mr Narayan and so forth I had met
before. It was ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE:

We will speak about Mr Narayan.

been mentioned in this Commission.

His name has

We will come back to him in a

minute. Any other engagements with the Gupta family per se or Gupta
related or associated entities that you can recall?
MS ROCKMAN:
10

During May 2012 it was the first business breakfast.

Those that were broadcast with – sponsored by I think it was Eskom at
the time, SABC and so forth. The President addressed – the President
attended – President Zuma.
ADV GCABASHE: Was this in Bloemfontein?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . I t w a s i n B l o e m f o n t e i n .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . C o n t i n u e .
MS ROCKMAN:

It was on the 17th of May 2012.

I think again more

than one of the Gupta brothers was in attendance as well.
ADV GCABASHE: Again this was a function that was linked to the New
Age?
20

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . I t w a s t h o s e N e w A g e b u s i n e s s b r e a k f a s t s .
ADV GCABASHE: Business breakfasts ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: That we have come to hear about?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Continue. That is May 2012.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s a n d t h e n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 a s y o u w o u l d r e m e m b e r
it was the ANC National Conference. So as I left the registration area I
met them coming in.

Them again – some of the brothers.

They also

c a m e t o r e g i s t e r.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: So it is not like – they were in the environment. It was
not like they were not known and not – no one ever engaged with them.
They were there.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

In relation to any visits you might have made to

S a x o n w o l d t o t h e r e s i d e n c e o f t h e G u p t a f a m i l y.
MS ROCKMAN: Some ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: What can you share with the Chairman in relation to
that?
MS ROCKMAN:

Some

of

the

first

meetings

I

only

met

with

Mr Rajesh Gupta …(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE:

And

that

is

M r To n y

–

his

also

known

as

To n y G u p t a ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
20

MS ROCKMAN: I never had other – one on one meetings with the other
brothers.

There was a meeting around April 2013.

It was after I had

left as DG when I was appointed as MEC Finance.
appointment we were already in the budget process.

With my

My predecessor

had delivered the budget speech.
So we proceeded to deal with the budget by debates. So that

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
was a really busy period.
outstanding

debt

of

New

We were owing – there was always
Age

that

the

O ff i c e

of

Premier

was

coordinating. So the purpose of that meeting was to say okay what are
the arrangements now that you are now no longer there.
So it was just confirmation that whoever will be acting as the
D G w i l l c o n t i n u e d o i n g w h a t e v e r t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e h a d b e e n d o i n g i n
a n y e v e n t a n d t h e n o b v i o u s l y i t w a s t h e o u t s t a n d i n g p a y m e n t t o Vr e d e
D a i r y f o r t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 f i n a n c i a l y e a r.
ADV GCABASHE: They raised that with you?
10

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

W h o i n p a r t i c u l a r – M r To n y “ R a j e s h ” G u p t a r a i s e d

that ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: With you?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . C o n t i n u e .
MS ROCKMAN: Then there after – well obviously ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE:

Oh, oh.

S o r r y.

Can we just - just I thought you

were going ...(intervenes).
20

MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
A D V G C A B A S H E : To g i v e u s a l i t t l e m o r e i n f o r m a t i o n o n t h e i s s u e s h e
was raising that payment.

What was the broad tenure of that

discussion and you say that would have been in April 2013?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Can you recall the broad tenure ...(intervenes).

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN: That we owed ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Around the issues that were raised?
MS ROCKMAN:

W e h a d o w e d t h e m m o n e y.

There was – I think the

first year it was the 84 of which only 30 million had been paid. So it
w a s t h e b a l a n c e o f t h e f i r s t y e a r ’s p a y m e n t a n d t h e n i t w a s o b v i o u s l y
t h e f i n a n c i a l i m p l i c a t i o n f o r t h e 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 f i n a n c i a l y e a r.
ADV GCABASHE: Could you clarify whether in those discussions you
w e r e a b l e t o s a y t o M r To n y G u p t a w e h a v e p a i d y o u 3 0 m i l l i o n . T h i s i s
our money that you are dispensing on a project that has been selected
10

b y u s . S o t h e c o n c e p t o f o w i n g m o n e y i s a d i ff i c u l t c o n c e p t t o g r a p p l e
with.
U n l e s s t h e y – h e u n d e r s t o o d i t d i ff e r e n t l y o r I h a v e t o t a l l y
misunderstood the relationship between Estina as an implementing
agent and the Free State Government/the Department of Agriculture
and Rural Development.
MS ROCKMAN: I ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s G c a b a s h e . I a m s o r r y.
A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Please do not forget the question that you have just

20

put. For me I thought before getting to that point. I thought she was
still going to – she would first tell me about that meeting in Bethlehem
when they wanted to – that is the Gupta family wanted the Provincial
Government to subscribe to the New Age.
So can I take you back there?

Te l l m e h o w t h a t h a p p e n e d

because that probably was the start of what followed in terms of the

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
New Age and so on and so on.

Maybe it was not but I would like to

hear about that meeting.
M S R O C K M A N : B y A u g u s t 2 0 11 t h e N e w A g e h a d a l r e a d y e x i s t e d . W e
were

already

advertising

in

the

New

Age.

So

the

support

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: But you had not subscribed yet?
MS ROCKMAN:

But

we

had

not

concluded

a

subscription

…(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e j u s t a d v e r t i s i n g . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
10

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: On an ad hoc basis?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And as far as you know had there been any formal

request from the New Age or the Gupta family that you should advertise
maybe a lot in their newspaper or was the position that each
department was aware that there was a new newspaper around and
they would advertise if they so choose but it was not co-ordinated?
20

MS ROCKMAN:

The July 2010 presentation to Exco – Exco had

already agreed in principle to support the New Age.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t i s J u l y 2 0 11 ?
MS ROCKMAN: 10 - 2010.
CHAIRPERSON: 2010?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .

Page 32 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

So - so there had been a presentation

...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But that is not the Bethlehem meeting. Is that right?
MS ROCKMAN: No.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, please. I may have missed something.
M S R O C K M A N : O k a y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Te l l m e a b o u t t h a t p r e s e n t a t i o n .
MS ROCKMAN:

The July 2010 presentation the New Age came to

present to the Executive Council ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S R O C K M A N : To s a y w e a r e t h e N e w A g e . T h i s i s o u r a p p r o a c h . W e
are the new kid on the block. We want support from Government and
E x c o a g r e e d i n p r i n c i p l e . Ye s . W e a r e g o i n g t o s u p p o r t t h i s n e w d a i l y
n e w s p a p e r.

Yo u s h o u l d r e m e m b e r t h a t i n t h e F r e e S t a t e t h e r e i s n o

o t h e r E n g l i s h d a i l y n e w s p a p e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Is that so?
20

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t h i s w a s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S R O C K M A N : T h i s w a s s o m e t h i n g n e w, y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So the New Age was going to be the only daily

...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : E n g l i s h d a i l y n e w s p a p e r.

Page 33 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
CHAIRPERSON: English newspaper?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Other newspapers were weekly ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Or and so on ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And would those have been national newspapers or

would those – were they provincial ones that were weekly?
MS ROCKMAN:
10

There is a lot of provincial community newspapers

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

That advert – ag – that publish on a weekly basis

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S R O C K M A N : A n d t h e n y o u h a v e t h e Vo l k s b l a d w h i c h i s p a r t o f t h e
Media24 Group ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN: But that is an Afrikaans ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S R O C K M A N : M e d i u m n e w s p a p e r. S o . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S R O C K M A N : O r – I t h i n k t h e m i d - 1 9 8 0 ’s t h e F r e e S t a t e h a s n o t h a d
a n E n g l i s h d a i l y n e w s p a p e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS ROCKMAN:

So there was a particular niche market that the New

Page 34 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Age would operate in.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So at the 2010 presentation the Provincial

Executive Council said – agreed in principle to support them?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Without specifying details and without formalising any
relationship?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A s a n d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: At that stage?
MS ROCKMAN: As and when for example we would place recruitment
10

advertisements.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, a l r i g h t .
MS ROCKMAN: We would ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: Definitely also advertise in the New Age.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A t t h a t s t a g e w a s t h e r e a n y d i s c u s s i o n o f h o w
much they desired the Provincial Government to spend on the – on
advertisements with them?
MS ROCKMAN: No.
CHAIRPERSON: There was no discussion ...(intervenes).

20

MS ROCKMAN: No.
CHAIRPERSON: About that?
M S R O C K M A N : I t w a s d i ff i c u l t t o p r e d i c t f o r e x a m p l e w h e n y o u – h o w
many posts you could advertise.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: What posts became vacant when ...(intervenes).

Page 35 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S R O C K M A N : I t i s v e r y d i ff i c u l t t o q u a n t i f y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: So it was not formalised into a quantum.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And then after that various departments advertised in
– in the New Age?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . C o o r d i n a t e d t h r o u g h O ff i c e o f t h e P r e m i e r.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Of the Premier?
MS ROCKMAN: Everyone would submit their posts ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: For example.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS ROCKMAN: We would consolidate and send it through to the media
bulk buyers. They would place the advertisements.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d i n t e r m s o f p a y m e n t h o w d i d i t w o r k ?

Did

you get invoiced after advertisement?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h e n o r m a l s t a n d a r d p r o c e d u r e t h e r e h a d t o b e
20

an order ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S R O C K M A N : N u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN: The invoices would come.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 36 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

I think we worked on – a lot on interdepartmental

claims.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S R O C K M A N : W h e r e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e w o u l d p a y a n d t h e n w e w o u l d
claim back from ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: Relevant departments.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n t h e n e x t m e e t i n g w a s t h e 2 0 11 A u g u s t o n e
in ...(intervenes).
10

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Bethlehem.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

The subscription agreement proposal was

A u g u s t 2 0 11 i n B e t h l e h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Just tell me more about the content of the

discussion in relation to the Gupta family or the New Age delegation
and the – and Exco at that meeting.
MS ROCKMAN:

I was introduced – the Premier was not part of that

d i s c u s s i o n . H e h a d a c t u a l l y w a l k e d a w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Oh, yes.

Actually the Premier had said you must

meet them before ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

The

actual

meeting.

...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Before the actual meeting?

Page 37 of 190

Did

you

meet

them

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . B e f o r e .
CHAIRPERSON: And what was discussed at that ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: The ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Meeting.
MS ROCKMAN: They had a draft proposal.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: It was almost in the format of an agreement. It was on
t h e i r l e t t e r h e a d o n l y. I t d i d n o t h a v e P r o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t . S o i t d i d
not look like a contract that Provincial Government would enter into.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: It was for a specific number of copies ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: Of newspapers per day at whatever cover price.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: Whatever they required from us ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: For a certain period of time.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: What I remember is it seemed that this was something

20

that had been discussed prior or long before because the initial
a g r e e m e n t w a s d a t e d F e b r u a r y – i t w a s s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d F e b r u a r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 11 ?
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: But it was clear that – look this is not going to happen

Page 38 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
because we did not make any budget provision. So for this thing to be
brought in it would be from the next financial year ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S R O C K M A N : To g e t o u r s e l v e s i n o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
MS ROCKMAN: So there was process of engagement ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S R O C K M A N : To f o r m a l i s e t h e a g r e e m e n t i t s e l f .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MS ROCKMAN:

We also utilised the State Law Advisors.

They

f o r m a l i s e d t h e a g r e e m e n t u l t i m a t e l y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

So the discussion between yourself and them

before going to the meeting – the Exco meeting ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Was they wanted the Provincial Government to sign a
subscription agreement with them?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And that would indicate how many newspapers per

day and so on and so on ...(intervenes).
20

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Would be bought by the Provincial Government?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A s w e l l a s h o w d o w e – h o w w o u l d w e c o n t r o l t h e
distribution, the distribution points?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: How do you manage and monitor ...(intervenes).

Page 39 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: That process throughout the various ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: Respective Government buildings.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Do you have any recollection as to whether in

that agreement there was a number of newspaper copies that they had
already put in to say Provincial Government must agree to?
MS ROCKMAN: I think it was about 4 000.
CHAIRPERSON: About?
10

M S R O C K M A N : I f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c t l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: It was 4 000 ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: About 4 000 ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : P e r d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: A – per day?
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u m i g h t h a v e n o r e c o l l e c t i o n o f h o w m u c h t h a t
would have cost at that time that can be checked?
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: I can …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

So what was the outcome of your discussion with

them before going to the Exco meeting?
MS ROCKMAN:

It would have to be further pursued.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 40 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

Because for that quantum we would want something in

return and our demand was always, find a way to accommodate young
people in skills development.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MS ROCKMAN:

S o w e w a n t e d t h e – t o o ff e r c e r t a i n – a n u m b e r o f

students training or support through bursaries and so forth. We would
also have to follow some kind of procurement process as well. Clearly
y o u w o u l d n o t a d v e r t i s e a t e n d e r b e c a u s e w h o e l s e i s g o i n g t o t e n d e r,
you want specific newspapers.
10

So the procurement process in itself,

w o u l d h a v e b e e n a d e v i a t i o n b u t t h a t s t i l l h a d t o b e d r a f t e d i t ’s n o t l i k e
it was ready and available.

It also became clear it was – this was a

standard pitch made to many provinces, it was not only the Free State,
other provinces were also considering various types of subscription
agreements, they obviously varied according to the size and whatever
requirements and demands.
CHAIRPERSON:

So in terms of the outcome of the meeting you had

with them, was there still going to be a need for them to make a
presentation to the Exco meeting?
MS ROCKMAN:
20

No.

CHAIRPERSON:

There was going to be no need?

MS ROCKMAN:

No they were not invited to attend the Exco meeting

itself it was only to have this discussion on the proposed subscription
agreement.
CHAIRPERSON:

So they had come to have a meeting, actually with

you?

Page 41 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MS ROCKMAN:

Not with Exco?
Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y s o n o f i n a l a g r e e m e n t w a s r e a c h e d a l l

that was reached was that the matter would need to be pursued?
MS ROCKMAN:

I think we agreed in principle.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja agreed in principle but the details would have to

follow later?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y, a l r i g h t t h a n k y o u M s G c a b a s h e .

ADV GCABASHE:

Thank you Chairman, just one or two issues arising

from your discussion with the Chairman, you indicated that the initial
agreement that they showed you when you met them was dated
F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 ?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

ADV GCABASHE:

Ye s b u t y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h o m i g h t h a v e h a d

discussions with them, that – which discussions would have informed
that draft?
MS ROCKMAN:

No.

ADV GCABASHE:
20

MS ROCKMAN:

Yo u n e v e r d i d f i n d o u t ?

No.

ADV GCABASHE:

The second question relates to the comment you’ve

j u s t m a d e a b o u t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t f o r t h a t s u b s c r i p t i o n . Yo u s a i d t h a t
that process would have been a deviation?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

ADV GCABASHE:

Explain that, why would it have been a deviation?

Page 42 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

Because it would be impractical to get three

quotations because you want a subscription agreement with a specific
n e w s p a p e r, w e w e r e n o t e n t e r i n g i n – i t w a s n o t a p u b l i c c a l l f o r a n y o n e
who wants to come to us, we have money to throw at newspaper
subscriptions, it wasn’t that, it was a specific proposal based on a very
s p e c i f i c n i c h e m a r k e t t h a t ’s w h e r e t h e E n g l i s h D a i l y n e w s p a p e r c o m e s
in.

Free State would have a specific page all of those things would

come – would still play – it would be in play so you wouldn’t get
quotations for this specific subscription agreement.
10

There were

s u ff i c i e n t g r o u n d s f o r u s t o d e v i a t e .
ADV GCABASHE:

I’d like to just debate that with you for a minute.

W o u l d i t n o t h a v e b e e n i n t h e F r e e S t a t e G o v e r n m e n t ’s i n t e r e s t t o
a p p r o a c h a n y o t h e r E n g l i s h D a i l y ’s t h a t d o n o t h a v e n e w s p a p e r s i n t h e
Free State and say to them, we’ve had a bid – I don’t know how this is
done, I’ve never had to do this personally but essentially just to
indicate that you’ve got a proposal and you’d like to get value for
money – as much value for money as you can by looking at other
competitors if they have an interest in the same product or service. I
don’t know if you’re understanding the question, was there no reason to
20

look for anybody else and try and make sure that you were getting
value for money in relation to the product that New Age was selling to
you?
MS ROCKMAN:

There was no one else available, the last English

D a i l y n e w s p a p e r i n t h e F r e e S t a t e c l o s e d d o w n i n t h e m i d 8 0 ’s , i t w a s
called The Friend, I think, I speak under correction it might have been

Page 43 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
part of what, by then was Independent Media Group or – don’t know
w h o o w n e d i t b u t t h e r e w a s n o o n e e l s e i n t h i s p h a s e . I t ’s n o t e a s y o r
c h e a p t o o p e n a n e w s p a p e r, I t h i n k t h e f a c t t h a t o u r c o m m u n i t y
newspapers have not been able to make the transition, in terms of
s c h e d u l e t o g o f r o m a w e e k l y t o a d a i l y n e w s p a p e r, i t ’s i n d i c a t i v e i t ’s a
v e r y c h a l l e n g i n g i n d u s t r y.

I t ’s v e r y c a s h i n t e n s i v e i t n e e d s a l o t o f

capital outlay which is just simply beyond the capacity of what the
average community newspaper would have.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

S o i n e ff e c t y o u r e a l l y d i d n o t r e a l l y d o t h e

research, you didn’t go beyond the pitch that was made to you?
MS ROCKMAN:

I think we had done the research in respect of the

r e s t o f o u r m e d i a s t r a t e g y, s o w e a l r e a d y k n e w. T h e r e w a s n o o n e e l s e
w h o w a s g o i n g t o o ff e r t o o p e n a n e w s p a p e r i n t h e F r e e S t a t e – a D a i l y
newspaper an English Daily newspaper in the Free State.

They were

also not going to be Free State based but at least we would have a
dedicated page of Free State news which would be significantly
d i ff e r e n t t h a n w h a t a n y o t h e r E n g l i s h n e w s p a p e r w o u l d b e o ff e r i n g .
ADV GCABASHE:

The essence of your answer is, you applied your

mind to the possibilities and the probabilities and the practicalities.
20

Yo u l o o k e d a t y o u r S E M p r o c e d u r e s a n d t o o k a d e c i s i o n o n t h e b a s i s o f
what you had before you?
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
W e l l l e t ’s l o o k a t t h a t a g a i n a n d m a y b e w h a t I ’ m

going to ask you has something to do with something that I’ve asked
some of the witnesses when we deal – we talk about deviations from

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
procurement. What is it that the Provincial Government needed to buy
a n E n g l i s h n e w s p a p e r f o r, w h y d i d y o u n e e d t o b u y n e w s p a p e r s a s a
Provincial Government?
MS ROCKMAN:

I think the media environment, specifically needed for

us to have an appropriate approach to provincial communications
s t r a t e g y.

It wasn’t only based on newspapers.

It had your electronic

m e d i a , i t h a d c o m m u n i t y r a d i o s t a t i o n s , i t w a s a m u c h b r o a d e r s t r a t e g y.
S o g e t t i n g a c c e s s t o a n E n g l i s h D a i l y n e w s p a p e r, s t r e n g t h e n e d o u r
ability to communicate with communities beyond what was available in
10

t h e s p a c e a t t h e t i m e . Yo u r c o m m u n i t y n e w s p a p e r s w h i c h w a s E n g l i s h
based, the volume they produced is obviously limited, their distribution
area is also more limited.

Yo u r A f r i k a a n s D a i l y n e w s p a p e r w o u l d b e

limited in the audience that you reach.

So there was a number of

factors that informed this specific decision.

It was also not only on

newspaper subscription, it was the New Age but we also had other
agreements for other proposals like a special publication, for example
with Mail & Guardian that was pursued. There were other agreements
w i t h E - T V, w i t h S A B C , s o i t w a s – t h e r e w a s r e a l l y a l o t o f e l e m e n t s t o
t h e o v e r a l l c o m m u n i c a t i o n s t r a t e g y, i t w a s n ’ t t h a t N e w A g e w a s s i n g l e d
20

out above all other but it addressed a specific demand that we
identified within the environment.
CHAIRPERSON:

Well I would think – I would have thought that when

the New Age made an approach to the Provincial Government the
P r o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t w o u l d h a v e t a k e t h e a t t i t u d e t h a t , y o u k n o w,
these are business people, they want to do business with us, their

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
business and – but we have to ask ourselves the question, why do we
need it and who can give us the best value for the best price. Now if
you say here – you said they wanted you to subscribe to 4 000 – to
b u y i n g 4 0 0 0 c o p i e s p e r d a y, i s t h a t t h e n u m b e r t h a t y o u u l t i m a t e l y
agreed upon as far as you recall?
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:

No I can’t recall ja.
But was it in thousands?
Ye s .
It was in thousands?
Ye s i t w a s .
I think somebody would need to check what that cost

a t t h a t t i m e – a t w h a t e v e r p r i c e a t t h a t t i m e b u t l e t ’s s t a y w i t h 4 0 0 0 f o r
a r g u m e n t s a k e , t h a t ’s q u i t e a l o t o f n e w s p a p e r s p e r d a y, t h a t m e a n s
o v e r f i v e d a y s t h a t ’s 2 0 0 0 0 , t h a t ’s q u i t e a l o t . N o w m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g
of what you were saying earlier on about advertisements is that there
wouldn’t be, for Provincial Government, there would be too many
advertisements, did I understand you correctly?
would

be

some

advertisements,

sometimes

In other words there
there

would

be

no

advertisements sometimes and certainly at some stage it was not
20

coordinated as I understand, later on it may have been coordinated, is
that right?
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Ye s .
The advertisements was as and when required.
Ye s , s o i f y o u b o u g h t t h e – t h e s e n e w s p a p e r c o p i e s ,

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
what was going to happen with them, were you going to distribute them
a m o n g t h e s t a ff i n v a r i o u s d e p a r t m e n t s ?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s t h e r e w a s a n u m b e r o f d i s t r i b u t i o n p o i n t s ,

Provincial Government buildings, primarily as well as Mongu Metro, I
can’t remember the details of all the distribution points but it was quite
s t r u c t u r e d t o s a y, t h i s m a n y g o e s t o b u i l d i n g A , b u i l d i n g B , b u i l d i n g C .
W e h a d p e o p l e i n t h e d i ff e r e n t b u i l d i n g s t h a t w o u l d m o n i t o r p r o p e r
d i s t r i b u t i o n a n d o b v i o u s l y i t w o u l d b e f r e e o f c h a r g e f o r o ff i c i a l s ,
g e n e r a l p u b l i c , w h o e v e r w a l k s i n w o u l d t a k e a c o p y.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Now the arrangement, you mentioned about a page

in terms of the agreement with them that the Provincial Government
ultimately had with them. Was there a page that was dedicated for use
by the Provincial Government?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s i t w a s d e d i c a t e d t o F r e e S t a t e N e w s i t w o u l d n o t

necessarily be only Provincial Government news, I mean if Provincial
Government doesn’t have any news for a specific day they would fill the
p a g e w i t h F r e e S t a t e n e w s , w h e t h e r i t w a s s p o r t , p r i v a t e s e c t o r, d o e s n ’ t
matter what but it wasn’t unique to the Free State, most provinces had
dedicated pages.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:
f o r.

With the New Age?
Ye s .
Ye s , b u t I ’ m t r y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h a t i t w a s u s e d

L e t ’s t a l k a b o u t t h e F r e e S t a t e . W h a t w a s t h e – w h y d i d t h e

Provincial Government need a dedicated page for themselves?
MS ROCKMAN:

Information about your government programmes,

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
whether it was a specific project, operation Hlasela, whether it was
human settlements whether it was transport month, public service
m o n t h , a u d i t o u t c o m e s , a n y n e w s t h a t ’s g e n e r a t e d b y P r o v i n c i a l
G o v e r n m e n t t o s t r e n g t h e n g o v e r n m e n t ’s a b i l i t y t o c o m m u n i c a t e i n a
better way or to get more access to information.

If there was a slow

period it would be other municipalities could contribute, universities,
w h a t e v e r, w h a t e v e r w a s i n t h e n e w s o r w h a t i s n e w s w o r t h y f o r t h e F r e e
State would be on our page.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

So that insofar as it needed to be – insofar as it was

information that needed to be known by government employees that
would have been easy for the government to do without a newspaper
isn’t it, in terms of circulars and so on, is that not so?

Whenever

t h e r e ’s a n y t h i n g t h a t g o v e r n m e n t n e e d s t o c o n v e y t o i t s e m p l o y e e s I
would imagine they would issue circulars and so on?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s i t w o u l d n o t b e y o u r i n t e r n a l g o v e r n m e n t t y p e

c o m m u n i c a t i o n t h a t w o u l d b e s e n t t o o ff i c i a l s a n d o b v i o u s l y a n y
newspaper relies on the fact that the person who buys or the person
w h o t a k e s t h e c o p y, h e t a k e s i t h o m e , t h e r e ’s t h r e e , f o u r, f i v e o t h e r
p e o p l e w h o h a v e a c c e s s t o i t , w h o a l s o r e a d , i t ’s t h e s a m e p r i n c i p l e .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

So other than that page, where the Provincial

Government may communicate certain things what other need was there
for this subscription by the Provincial Government as you saw it?
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:
MS ROCKMAN:

It was general support.
S u p p o r t t o t h e G u p t a f a m i l y, t h e N e w A g e ?
To t h e N e w A g e .

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e N e w A g e , o k a y. I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o

take that further?
ADV GCABASHE:

N o t a t t h i s p o i n t C h a i r m a n s i m p l y b e c a u s e i t ’s

quarter past eleven and tea time gives us the opportunity to reflect on
some of these questions.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a l r i g h t l e t ’s t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e ’ l l

r e s u m e a t 11 : 3 0 , w e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
10

I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s M s G c a b a s h e d o y o u h a v e a n y f o l l o w u p

questions on that issue?
ADV GCABASHE:

Chairman I just want to talk a little bit about that

subscription agreement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Not necessarily follow up to the questions you were
asking.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:
20

But it is in relation to the same agreement –

Subscription Agreement.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE:

When was that Subscription Agreement eventually

s i g n e d b e t w e e n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f – t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e a n d N e w A g e ,
do you recall?
MS ROCKMAN: Chairperson it would have been somewhere after that

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
m e e t i n g b u t b e f o r e t h e s t a r t o f t h e n e x t f i n a n c i a l y e a r.

Before April

2012. I cannot remember the exact date. I am sure we can establish
it.
ADV GCABASHE:

So it would have been before April 2012 in any

event?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: The budgeting process for that line item would have
been put into which financial year?
MS ROCKMAN: It would – if it starts from April 2012/2013 it would be
10

from that financial year starting 1 April 2012.
ADV GCABASHE: So it would be in the 2012/2013 financial year?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

ADV GCABASHE: Do you recall the term of that contract – how many
years did you subscribe?
MS ROCKMAN:

Chair that would be the standard term of contract

three years.
ADV GCABASHE: Three?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: So it was a three year – three year term. Then the
20

last question on that is were you aware of any other provincial
governments or State Entities or National Government Departments that
had signed similar Subscription Agreements with the New Age?
MS ROCKMAN: Chairperson at the time we were informed I think that
the same type of proposal was made I think to KwaZulu-Natal and
Mpumalanga.

Whether they had signed I am not aware and I do not

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
k n o w a b o u t n a t i o n a l d e p a r t m e n t s o r S O E ’s .
ADV GCABASHE: But as far as you were aware you were not the first
to sign up for this particular service?
MS ROCKMAN:

We were not the only ones which received the

proposal. I would not want to go as far as saying that we were not the
first to sign up.
ADV GCABASHE:

Can you just describe to me that page you say that

the Free State government would have in the New Age Newspaper and
really all I want to understand is whether the batch that would come to
10

the Free State would have a Free State page in it.

The batch that

would go to KZN would have a similar page but it would be KZN page or
would you find various provincial pages if I might call them that in the
batch that arrived at the Free State?
MS ROCKMAN: Chair I would speculate but I – if I remember correctly
i t w a s – e a c h n e w s p a p e r h a d a p a g e p e r p r o v i n c e . Yo u w o u l d n o t p r i n t
a Free State version – a separate KwaZulu-Natal version, a separate
M p u m a l a n g a i t w o u l d – i t w o u l d d r i v e u p c o s t s e n o r m o u s l y. S o i f I c a n
remember correctly it was – there was one edition with pages per
province.
20

ADV GCABASHE: I see your counsel is nodding his head. He seems
to know a lot about this.
M S R O C K M A N : I w o u l d n o t k n o w.
ADV GCABASHE: Let us ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN:

I can safely say this is not something we had

consulted on.

Page 51 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: No I know because it is – that is fine.
CHAIRPERSON: But I –...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: But let us go into ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying there would be one page in each issue
of the New Age on a particular day on every day?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

And that one page would be used by all provinces

who – which had – which may have had a Subscription Agreement with
the New Age? In other words if KZN had something it would go to the
10

same page. If the Free State had something it would be the same page
that would be used. Is that what you are saying as you understand –
you understood the position?
MS ROCKMAN:

Chair I – our news would go to the Free State page.

K w a Z u l u - N a t a l ’s n e w s w o u l d g o t o K Z N p a g e b u t a l l i n o n e n e w s p a p e r.
But New Age also had team of journalists – full time journalists in the
province.

T h e y h a d o ff i c e s i n t h e F r e e S t a t e .

So those journalists –

the stories they did was also on that page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t h o u g h t w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g e a r l i e r o n w a s i t
would have driven the cost too high if the New Age were to have a page
20

for each province with which they had a Subscription Agreement. Did I
misunderstand you?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h e n e w s p a p e r – s a y i t h a s 1 6 p a g e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN: And there are 9 provinces.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 52 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

Maybe some provinces had half a page others had a

full page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

B u t y o u w o u l d n o t g e t 9 d i ff e r e n t e d i t i o n s o f o n e

n e w s p a p e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: No that I understand.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: In the same edition would there be a page dedicated
to a particular province or is the position that there was one page
w h i c h w a s s h a r e d b y t h e d i ff e r e n t p r o v i n c e s w h i c h h a d S u b s c r i p t i o n
Agreements with the New Age?
MS ROCKMAN:

I am not sure how the level to the details of the

Subscription – how the Subscription Agreement links to the page
s p e c i f i c a l l y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: But provision was made for each province.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S R O C K M A N : To h a v e a d e d i c a t e d p a g e a t l e a s t . H a l f a p a g e / p a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g i f t o d a y ’s e d i t i o n o f t h e

New Age had 20 pages there would only be like page 3 or 4 that is for
the Free State province?

Page 53 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s , y e s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: But would that be another page for example the KZN
province?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: That is how you understood it?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: But are you saying that that page would be used for
10

each province or provincial government to put in whatever message it
wanted to convey to the population or whatever story or it wanted to
convey but apart from that journalists of the New Age would also put in
their own stories in relation to the province on the same page?
M S R O C K M A N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

So the page was not dedicated to the provincial

g o v e r n m e n t e x c l u s i v e l y.

In other words it was not going to be filled

with what the provincial government decided should go into that page
o n l y.

It would be what the provincial government puts in but there

would be something that the newspaper itself decides to put in?
20

M S R O C K M A N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: It would be two – both?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS ROCKMAN: It was definitely broader than provincial government.
CHAIRPERSON: It was broader than it.

Page 54 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN: Sometimes municipalities ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: Would also ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: Generate content or have something that they wanted
covered.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: And like I say New Age journalists themselves.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
10

MS ROCKMAN: They were obviously not limited to that page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S R O C K M A N : T h e y w o u l d – a p p e a r.
CHAIRPERSON: They could write on other – ja.
MS ROCKMAN: If it was newsworthy enough it would compete with the
front page, second page, and third page.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN: Whatever the priority would be.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

The advertisements that the provincial government

would have for jobs, DG or whatever – there is a vacancy would they go
into that page or would they – could they be put elsewhere in other
pages? In other words did this dedicated page mean that your adverts
would also go into that page and not anywhere else?
MS ROCKMAN: I think that was the layout and design decision. I do

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
n o t t h i n k w e – w e h a d c o v e r e d t h a t i n a n y w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: As a preference.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: It might or it might not.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

Now did the provincial government in

terms of the Subscription Agreement pay any particular amount for this
page as opposed to the obligation to buy 4000 or whatever the number
was of copies per day?
10

M S R O C K M A N : N o C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: There was ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN:

It was – ja the expenditure to New Age was as and

when we advertised.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN:

And the Subscription Agreement was a Subscription

Agreement. We did not pay additional amounts for that page.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

So basically you paid for the copies 4000 or

whatever the number was per day and in return you got a page that you
could use for whatever you wanted to write or advertise?
20

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: And then when I say advertise I accept that you are
not sure whether you could advertise on other pages or not?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay alright. And you said that the justification for

the Subscription Agreement was basically to give support to the New

Page 56 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Age? Is that right?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Is my understanding correct?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . A s a n e w e n t r a n t i n t h e m a r k e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: It was a new voice. It was speaking to a niche market
that no one else covered in the Free State being the only English daily
n e w s p a p e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
10

A D V G C A B A S H E : I h a d a s k e d y o u a b o u t t h e t e r m o f t h e c o n t r a c t . Yo u
said it was a three year subscription contract?
MS ROCKMAN: That is correct.
ADV GCABASHE: Was it renewed?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

There was a function shift around 2015 where

certain of the transversal communication matters, it related to the
public information platform and the Subscription Agreement was moved
f r o m o ff i c e o f t h e P r e m i e r t o P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y. I t w a s a f u n c t i o n s h i f t
and accordingly the budget also shifted. So the – after the expiry of the
first Subscription Agreement a second Subscription Agreement was
20

e n t e r e d i n t o b e t w e e n Tr e a s u r y a n d N e w A g e a n d t h a t o n e w a s a l s o t h e
same three year period.
note

Then in 2017/2018 there was an instruction

o f N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y

on

cost containment measures

which

addressed really a broad range of issues.
Anything from entertainment, telephone data costs, included in
that cost containment measure was then the measure that says

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
subscriptions to newspapers or other publications should – when they
run out they should not be renewed and we implemented that. So early
2018 I think around March 2018 when that Subscription Agreement
c a m e t o a n e n d t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h e r e l a t i o n s h i p . W e d i d n o t r e n e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d t h a t w a s e n d o f 2 0 1 8 ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . M a r c h 2 0 1 8 .
CHAIRPERSON: March 2018?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Is that not when it closed down?

I mean the New

Age?
MS ROCKMAN: I think it was before.
CHAIRPERSON: Or was it soon thereafter?
MS ROCKMAN: It was before it closed down. I know we made a final
payment to the liquidators.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S R O C K M A N : I f I c a n r e m e m b e r o n e o f t h e s p r e a d s h e e t s t h a t I s a w.
It was a few months before.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: The New Age closed down.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV GCABASHE: Chairman it actually closed down in June.
CHAIRPERSON: In June?
ADV GCABASHE: 2018.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d i t m a y b e t h a t – I a m t r y i n g t o r e m e m b e r

whether we have been told as to when the Gupta family fled from South

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Africa.

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r i n t h e – i n M r A j a y G u p t a ’s

Application for Leave to cross-examine anybody whether he dealt with
that but we know that they did flee from South Africa.
ADV GCABASHE:

Ye s b u t c a n I a s k t h i s q u e s t i o n ?

The paper was

c a l l e d A f r o Vo i c e f r o m a b o u t 2 0 1 7 w h e n M r M a n y e t o o k o v e r a n d
rebranded the New Age.

Would the old Subscription Agreement have

carried over to that new company if I might call it that or do you recall
if the Subscription Agreement would have terminated by that time?
MS ROCKMAN: I cannot recall.
10

A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u c a n n o t r e c a l l ?
MS ROCKMAN: I would – no I would have to go back Chair and look at
that but I cannot recall anything about that. Although I know Mr Manye
himself also made a presentation to the Executive Council after he had
taken over the New Age same principle of requesting support and so
forth.
ADV GCABASHE: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN:

But I cannot remember the technicalities around

whether the Subscription Agreement had continued or I am sorry I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
20

A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t a g a i n i t w o u l d n o w b e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y t h a t
would have been in charge of.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ta k i n g a d e c i s i o n .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : O n w h e t h e r t o s u b s c r i b e o r n o t t o A f r o Vo i c e .

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u c a n n o t r e c a l l w h e t h e r y o u d i d o r d i d n o t ?
MS ROCKMAN: No.
ADV GCABASHE:

But what you do recall is that you were asked in

terms of that cost containment directive to cut all the excess.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

Things you were doing and one of them was the

buying of newspapers?
MS ROCKMAN:
10

and

Ye s . I t w a s n o t o n l y n e w s p a p e r s i t w a s n e w s p a p e r s

publications.

I

mean

departments

subscribe

to

magazines

professional industry type magazines so you would really have to
review – do you really need everything?

Do you need the quantity of

newspapers that you may be subscribing to? It was a quite extensive
cost containment measure. It is instruction note 3 of 2017/2018.
ADV GCABASHE:

A related questions is the following:

Yo u h a d t h e

Subscription Agreement in place for two terms. During that period did
you continue to advertise and pay separately for any advertisement
space that you were taking in the New Age paper?
MS ROCKMAN: Chair I am sure that is the – that would have been the
20

a r r a n g e m e n t . Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

Again on that ad-hoc basis that you described

earlier?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Why would advertising in the New Age even if it was
advertising most of the Provincial Governments in the New Age – why

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
would that not have been enough support to the New Age? Why did you
have to go to the extent of subscribing to – I know that I am using the
figure 4000 but you said you are not sure.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t w a s i n 2 0 0 0 ’s . W h y d i d i t – d i d t h e P r o v i n c i a l
Government have to subscribe to buying every day thousands of copies
of this newspaper?
MS ROCKMAN: Chair I think I would speculate but ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well you were the DG of the province at the time, is it
10

not? So you cannot be speculating.
MS ROCKMAN:

The advertisement would only – it would be limited

support.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja but that would be ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: It was not predictable.
CHAIRPERSON: But that would be the support you can give. I mean
o b v i o u s l y a s a J u d g e m y b a c k g r o u n d i s t h a t o f a l a w y e r.

When I left

practice a lot of us as black lawyers wanted support from government
but we did not expect anything other than that if and when there is work
to be – that needs a lawyer then we would be considered. We did not
20

even think of – we did not even ask to be guaranteed just that we would
be considered. So in other words you have work to be done, you need
a lawyer therefore you give support to categories of people that might
deserve special support. So I do not understand why it was necessary
to go beyond just saying okay the way we can support you is consider
you may be considering – consider giving you more adverts than – even

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
most adverts compared to others if that is justified. But to say we will
subscribe to thousands of copies per day seems to me to be on the
excessive side. I may be missing something and you must help me if I
am missing something.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja I think Chair if you go back to the context of that
t i m e . I c a n r e m e m b e r c l e a r l y o u t o f A N C L e k g o t l a ’s , o u t o f g o v e r n m e n t
L e k g o t l a ’s

and

I

am

talking

about

both

province

and

national.

G o v e r n m e n t ’s a b i l i t y t o c o m m u n i c a t e w a s e x t r a c t e d a s a s p e c i f i c a r e a
of concern.
So it is not randomly that we decided in the Free State this is

10

the way to go. There was a bigger picture that informed that. I do not
d e a l w i t h t h i s i n a n y o f t h e a ff i d a v i t s a n d I a m c e r t a i n l y a b l e t o g o b a c k
and extract those kind of documentation.
I think as an entrant – as a new entrant to the market we know
the existing media ownership was skewed to a specific group. I think it
was a very particular argument to say let us do something to promote
the diversification of media ownership. I think it should also be seen in
that context.
I t i s a – I m e n t i o n e d i t b e f o r e i t i s a h i g h l y c o s t d r i v e n i n d u s t r y.
20

So you would not expect any media house to simply cover their costs
through advertisements if they do not have some other kind of support
that they can rely on.

And in this case it was government providing

focused support whether it is through a Subscription Agreement,
whether it is through advertisements to a specific new player in the
market.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
CHAIRPERSON: Well l think we have heard evidence of how much was
s p e n t b y t h e P r o v i n c i a l G o v e r n m e n t o r m a y b e t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e o n
the New Age at a certain time.

We did have that evidence and Mr

Manye did deal with it but I think – ja we did have that evidence.

I

cannot remember the amounts that were involved. But I mean if one is
talking of 4000 and again I accept that that is the figure that you are
sure about. If it was – if the New Age a copy was R10.00 that would be
R40 000.00 a day – five days that would be R200 000.00 in five weeks
that would be a million. Then one can go on if it was not R10.00 it was
10

R5.00 it would be half of that. But I have this impression that it seems
excessive but I think you have said what you are able to say about that.
But if there is something you want to add you know feel free to add.
MS ROCKMAN:

Chair I have so many documents that to extract it

might be – might take some time.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay well you can always ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN:

But certainly I think the – I agree with you the

evidence was already in the Commission. I think almost it came from
the GCIS presentation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s . I t d i d j a .
20

MS ROCKMAN: They did outline.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN:

The expenditure.

I think per province, national

departments.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: And provincial departments.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN: It is there.
CHAIRPERSON: Did ja. Okay thank you.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chairman. Then just to tidy up this part
o f o u r d i s c u s s i o n . Yo u s a i d o n e o f t h e r e t u r n s t h a t y o u i n d i c a t e d t o t h e
New Age was that they should develop young people. There should be
a s k i l l s t r a n s f e r.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Did this take place to your knowledge?
10

MS ROCKMAN:

I know in the time that I was still DG there was a

recruitment process so a number of young people were nominated and
they had gone to like interviews, skills test type of thing. After I had
then left I do not know what happened to that part of the program. But
certainly they started or they started to participate in a possible
recruitment training type of program.
ADV GCABASHE:

Would there be a record somewhere of the

achievement of that particular objective?
MS ROCKMAN:

I am not sure whether there would be.

We would

nominate and we being broadly it could be anyone that forward names.
20

New Age would invite them.

They would do the skills test.

See who

they wanted to develop – who they could develop in terms of potential
w h a t e v e r. B u t I d o n o t k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s e v e r a n y f o r m a l f e e d b a c k
process.
ADV GCABASHE: Even in relation to your media strategy and the work
around that is there no line items someone or reports somewhere

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
whether it is in the annual performance plans of the particular
d e p a r t m e n t t h a t i s e i t h e r t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e o r l a t e r o n t h e P r o v i n c i a l
Tr e a s u r y w h e r e y o u a r e s a y i n g w e a c h i e v e d t h i s o b j e c t i v e . T h e s e a r e
the numbers of students that were able to participate in this particular
p r o g r a m . A l t e r n a t i v e l y i n t h e S O PA a d d r e s s e s b e c a u s e I k n o w t h a t a s a
m a t t e r o f c o u r s e p o l i t i c i a n s l i k e t o s a y, t h i s i s w h a t w e a c t u a l l y w o r k e d
for and achieved and this is the kind of report I have in mind.
MS ROCKMAN: Chair it may or may not have been. I just do not have
that information available at this stage.
10

A D V G C A B A S H E : O k a y. C a n I t h e n c o m e b a c k t o y o u r m e e t i n g w i t h
M r To n y G u p t a ?

One of the things you said he asked about was

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Ms Gcabashe I just do not want to forget
this. Will somebody not check if nobody has checked the exact number
of copies that – of the New Age that the Provincial Government agreed
to buy every day number 1.
Number 2 will somebody not check how – what percentage of
what the New Age sold of the newspapers they sold in the Free State
was the amount that was bought by government in terms of the
20

Prescription – no was this a situation where for all intents and
purposes only the Provincial Government was buying their newspapers.
That is what I am looking for and hardly anybody bought it or what the
position was and that be given to me or to the hearing at some stage in
the future.
ADV GCABASHE: We will do that Chairman.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja.

O k a y.

A D V G C A B A S H E : W e a r e b a c k a t t h e m e e t i n g w i t h M r To n y G u p t a a n d
one of the things you said that he was concerned about – this is my
p a r a p h r a s i n g o f w h a t y o u s a i d a b o u t c o n t i n u i t y. B e c a u s e y o u w e r e n o w
m o v i n g f r o m b e i n g D G o f t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e t o
MEC. The question is: Why would he be concerned about an item that
had been budgeted for? Was the province not paying timeously?
MS ROCKMAN:

Do I understand you correctly as referring to the

outstanding debt for the newspaper?
10

A D V G C A B A S H E : F o r t h e n e w s p a p e r.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s t h a t i s w h a t I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : S o r r y I d i d n o t m a k e t h a t c l e a r.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s C h a i r a t t h a t s t a g e b e c a u s e w e u s e d t h e m e d i a

b u l k b u y i n g a g e n c y t h e o ff i c e o f t h e P r e m i e r w o u l d p a y t h e b u l k b u y i n g
agency who would in turn pay all the relevant newspapers.

There

developed a problem with the media bulk buying agency both between
the partners and in terms of reconciliation of payments between what
20

we paid to them and what they paid to respective newspapers.

So

there was a stage where New Age and a number of others were saying
we are not paid and we were saying but we have paid.

We cannot

d o u b l e p a y. W e c a n n o t p a y t h e m e d i a b u l k a g e n c y p l u s p a y y o u t h e n .
So it was quite a technical process of reconciliation until we were able
to resolve it. But it was ultimately resolved and in addition let me be

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
honest between January and March of any given financial year you
w o u l d f i n d i t v e r y d i ff i c u l t t o g e t 3 0 d a y p a y m e n t s o u t o f m o s t P r o v i n c i a l
Government departments. Most service providers are now equipped to
know that in their planning they must know there – everyone is made to
survive in that period but no-one or very few would actually be paid in
f u l l b e c a u s e b y t h e n c a s h r u n s o u t . T h a t i s t h e r e a l i t y.
CHAIRPERSON:
government.

It is one of the things I have never understood with

They say they support small business – businesses and

s o o n , s m a l l b u s i n e s s e s a r e v e r y i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e e c o n o m y. B u t t h e y
10

just do not pay them on time and I think various Presidents of the
country over the years have made all kinds of promises that this would
be fixed but one continues to hear that it is not done.

A lot of

businesses get – go under because government is not paying them.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r y o u a r e c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS

ROCKMAN:

It

is

a

problem

that

bedevils

Government

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: But it is about cash management ...(intervenes).
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: And in your last quarter you protect salaries – cash for
salaries so that you do not overspend.
accruals and payables.

Inevitably you run up your

I t h i n k i n t h e p e r i o d 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 7 / 2 0 1 8

t h e F r e e S t a t e a c c r u a l s d o u b l e d f r o m – 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 I t h i n k i t w a s a b o u t
1.3 billion. By 2017/2018 it stood at 2.6 billion.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
That is money really owed to people for services rendered,
goods rendered. That at year end closed they had not been paid but it
was – it – expenditure was …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: It is just so unacceptable. It is just so unacceptable.
Yo u k n o w s m a l l b u s i n e s s w h o – o f p e o p l e w h o a r e t r y i n g t o d o t h e b e s t
they can.

They are asked to do a certain job.

They do the jobs and

then they are not paid for months on end and it is just so unacceptable.
Ms Gcabashe you may proceed.
ADV GCABASHE: I – thank ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: It is just that it is one of those things that I think the
problem is that public service have a problem about supervising that
people do the job that they are employed to do and that they do it on
t i m e a n d t h e y d o i t p r o p e r l y. F o r m e i t i s a s i m p l e t h i n g .
Do not ask a small business person or anybody to do a job
u n l e s s y o u k n o w y o u w o u l d p a y t h e m o n t i m e . Yo u m a y b e p r o t e c t i n g
salaries for – I mean public servants protect their own salaries but they
forget about the salaries of people who are employed by these business
people and these people complain, complain, complain and nothing
happens and that is a Government that says it cares about poor people.

20

ADV GCABASHE: Well ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

C h a i r m a n w e a r e h e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t M r To n y G u p t a

complaining about the 84 million ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

That they were expecting to receive from the

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Provincial Government or from the Department of Agriculture and Rural
D e v e l o p m e n t b u t b e f o r e w e d e a l w i t h t h a t i n d e t a i l I j u s t w a n t e d c l a r i t y.
S o o n e o f t h e d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h M r To n y G u p t a a t t h e t i m e c o n c e r n e d
payment to the New Age?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Good. So let us come back to the monies that were
due on the Estina agreement and my question at the time was really a
reflection of how the – and it is my understanding of the contract was
that this is a contract.
10

Government is the principal requester of

services.
Estina has been employed as the implementing agent. Estina
has already been given R30 million to start certain processes.

In

April of 2013 which is when this meeting took place you have
M r To n y G u p t a s a y i n g t o y o u , y o u g u y s o w e u s m o n e y.

Yo u h a v e n o t

given us the 84 million that is outstanding.
So my question was did you engage him just in discussion on
two things?

One; that it cannot be an owing of money because they

were at the end of the day implementing services that Government had
requested.
20

That is one.

Second, when you really look at when that

c o n t r a c t c a m e i n t o e ff e c t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n o n t h e 7 t h o f J u l y.
The 12 month period to – for – that would trigger the payment
o f t h e f u l l 11 4 h a d n o t b e e n r e a c h e d y e t . S o w h y w a s h e c o n c e r n e d . I
just want to know if you discussed this and if you did what the tenure of
those discussions might have been.
MS ROCKMAN: I think we did not discuss it in – at that level that you

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
would be discussing or you are referring to. It was mostly a discussion
Chair that this is how the contract was structured.
a m o u n t p e r f i n a n c i a l y e a r.

We must pay X

It did not come into 12 months from this

m o n t h t o t h a t m o n t h . I t w a s p e r f i n a n c i a l y e a r.
The first 30 million was supposed to go for X, Y and Z.
Whether it was land acquisition, whether it was feasibility studies this
that this that.

What we had discussed more was there was a report

f r o m P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y.

O n e o f o u r b u d g e t o ff i c e r s h a d v i s i t e d t h e

farm in January 2013 and he had raised a number of issues and he had
10

photos.
I think it is somewhere in the supporting documents.

That

report is there.
ADV GCABASHE: Is that the Asset Management Unit Report?
MS ROCKMAN:

I t h i n k i t i s t h e – i t w a s t h e b u d g e t o ff i c e .

It is the

Myburgh Report. It is saying.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: It was in the Sustainable Resource Management Unit.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: So a number of issues were raised and the HOD at the
20

t i m e – H O D Tr e a s u r y o f t h e t i m e h a d a l s o r a i s e d c o n c e r n s t o s a y l o o k
when this project started this is what we said should be done.
contracts needed to be reviewed.

W e w a n t e d X , Y, Z .

The

By January it

s e e m e d t h a t s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n t a t i o n w a s n o t p r o v i d e d t o Tr e a s u r y.
By April – by the time we were going to meet it seemed that
events had overtaken the January concerns.

Page 70 of 190

So I was saying to

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M r G u p t a t h a t – t o To n y G u p t a t h a t r e g a r d l e s s o f w h e t h e r t h e r e i s a
p a y m e n t n o w.

In April the new budget is – firstly it is loaded on the

system.
Yo u d o n o t j u s t o p e n t h e s y s t e m o n t h e 2 n d o f A p r i l a n d
everyone starts merrily paying people.

I t d o e s n o t w o r k t h a t w a y.

It

takes time to upload the budget on the system. Then we wait for cash.
I t i s n o t l i k e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i s e i t h e r g o i n g t o d u m p c a s h o n u s o n
the 1st or 2nd of April. It is as and when money becomes available.
So depending on what cash we have available is how we will
10

p r o c e s s t h e p a y m e n t s b u t m o r e i m p o r t a n t l y i s Tr e a s u r y i s g o i n g t o d o
its own site visit because there is a lot of noise in this space. So we
want to make sure that what you had said is going to be done in the
first phase or the first year or the first payment.
We need to compare that with what is actually on the ground
and that is what informed the May 2013 site visit which I went with the
w h o l e m e r r y g a n g o f P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y a n d w h o e v e r e l s e w a n t e d t o b e
present was there.

They did not have a problem at all with the site

v i s i t . T h e y w e r e q u i t e c o m f o r t a b l e t o s a y t h i n g s a r e i n o r d e r.
There is work in progress on site.
20

We have planted – we

h a v e d o n e t h i s t h a t t h e o t h e r. T h e a n i m a l s a r e b e i n g b o u g h t , d e l i v e r e d
so forth.
ADV GCABASHE:

Let us take a step back.

Yo u w e r e a w a r e t h a t 3 0

million had already been paid to Estina?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Had you seen an accounting for the use of that 30

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
million?
M S R O C K M A N : I t w o u l d b e d i ff i c u l t f o r m e n o w C h a i r t o s a y w h e n d i d I
see that accounting because I know I knew about the Myburgh Report
after I had become MEC ...(intervenes).
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: In March, but I had not seen that report and that report
was not necessarily an accounting report.
visit report.

It was also type of a site

So I do not think by April I had seen an – a report

accounting for the funds.
10

ADV GCABASHE:

In fact the Myburgh Report criticised the Project

Managers, the implementing agent for their lack of progress.

My

colleague is just trying to find that particular document but they
certainly made various points where they distinctly identified the lack of
value for money for what had already been disbursed as one of the key
a r e a s t h a t Tr e a s u r y w o u l d h a v e t o l o o k a t b u t w e w i l l c o m e b a c k t o t h a t
particular document as soon as we find it but I do – I know exactly
which document you are talking about and which particular visit and
those were their conclusions.
My question really is in your discussions with Mr Gupta was
20

there an obligation that rested on you – that oversight obligation to say
to him. Show me even if it is in document form what you say you have
done with the first 30 million that we have given to you as an advance
payment and then we can properly assess whether the 84 is due now or
at a later stage.
I would have thought that that is the type of discussion you –

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
because you are trying to bargain and buy time knowing you do not
have those funds in your account and I would have thought that would
be the type of discussion you would be having with him.
MS ROCKMAN: No not ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Oh.
MS ROCKMAN: Not at that technical level, no.
ADV GCABASHE: Can I also say that there is a bit of a dispute around
w h a t t h a t f i r s t 3 0 m i l l i o n w a s i n t e n d e d t o d o ? O n E s t i n a ’s v e r s i o n t h a t
3 0 m i l l i o n t h e y t o o k 2 9 m i l l i o n o f t h a t a n d s e n t i t o u t o f t h e c o u n t r y.
10

O s t e n s i b l y t h e y w e r e r e s e r v i n g p a r l o u r m i l k i n g m a c h i n e r y.

Then

eventually the last one million that was left they also reserved for other
purposes.
M r T h a b e t h e ’s v i e w o f w h a t o u g h t t o h a v e h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e
f i r s t 3 0 m i l l i o n w a s t h a t i t o u g h t t o h a v e p a i d f o r t h e f e a s i b i l i t y s t u d y,
f o r t h e E I A S t u d y, f o r t h e p l a n n i n g t h a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e e t c e t e r a . S o
there is a bit of a disjuncture between Estina and Mr Thabethe with
regard to what that first 30 million ought to have been doing.
Hence my interest in whether you had a discussion with him
about why they were asking for more money when they had hardly
20

finished Phase 1 which the 30 million was supposed to take care of on
M r T h a b e t h e ’s v e r s i o n .

I do not know if you are aware of that

disjuncture between what Estina thought the money – they could do
with the first 30 million and what Mr Thabethe believed they were
supposed to have done with the first 30 million.
M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k s C h a i r. W e a r e s t u c k w i t h w h a t i s p r e s e n t e d t o

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Tr e a s u r y b y A g r i c u l t u r e R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t .

We had no relationship

with Estina. So whatever happened between Estina and Agriculture is
b e t w e e n t h e m . M r T h a b e t h e w a s t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r. H e h a d t o b e
comfortable that conditions had been met.
T h e a c c o u n t i n g t r e a t m e n t w a s i n o r d e r.

Ours was more a

cash management and the oversight and the oversight part.

So we

would not necessarily know those levels of details. What was that 30
m i l l i o n f o r e x c e p t f o r w h a t A g r i c u l t u r e p u t i n f r o n t o f Tr e a s u r y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

A n d i s w h a t t h e y p u t i n f r o n t o f Tr e a s u r y i n

accordance with what Ms Gcabashe has just stated as having been
M r T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e ?
MS ROCKMAN:

From – Chair from what I could construct out of the

correspondence at the time because this was now before I become MEC
in March 2013.

What Advocate Gcabashe has put on record to say it

w a s s u p p o s e d t o p a y f o r f e a s i b i l i t y s t u d y, e n v i r o n m e n t a l i m p a c t t h i s
t h a t t h i s t h a t , t h a t i s i n Tr e a s u r y ’s r e c o r d s t h a t i s w h a t i s r e f l e c t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV GCABASHE: And that would be correct because there is a letter
dated the 18th of January 2013 signed by Mr Thabethe which says these
20

– Phase 1, these were the milestones they have been achieved.
Therefore we are asking you to release further funds ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : To t h i s p a r t i c u l a r i m p l e m e n t i n g a g e n t ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r.
ADV GCABASHE: But can we move beyond that to some of the other

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
meetings that you had with Mr Gupta and the essential question
because we are really interested in Estina is whether any other
meetings you held with him where the purpose of the meeting was to
d i s c u s s m a t t e r s r e l a t i n g t o E s t i n a a n d t h e Vr e d e D a i r y F a r m o f c o u r s e ?
MS ROCKMAN:

I think in between there were numerous other TNA

Breakfasts running into people here there but focus discussions on this
– Estina there was a specific discussion after it was – there were quite
a number of media reports about cows dying on the farm. I think this
was somewhere in 2014 – early 2014 and we raised specific concerns
10

to say you know you cannot be spending this amount of money and we
have cows – in the media it says cows are dying on the farm.
Then we were provided by Agriculture by ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE:

Before you go there.

Who did you have those

discussions with? Who did you express those concerns to?
MS ROCKMAN: Firstly Mr Thabethe himself ...(intervenes).
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
M S R O C K M A N : A n d t h e n t h e r e w a s a m e e t i n g w i t h M r To n y G u p t a a n d
Ashok Narayan was present where we said look this is just not on.
ADV GCABASHE:
20

And would these meetings have taken place at 5

Saxonwold?
M S R O C K M A N : T h a t o n e s p e c i f i c a l l y, y e s . T h e F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 a r o u n d
t h e r e . I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t e x a c t d a t e s C h a i r.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: Then we were provided with that email correspondence
from the SPCA that said they had done an on-site inspection.

Page 75 of 190

There

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
are no causes for concern.

T h a t i s t w o c o m p l e t e l y d i ff e r e n t s e t s o f

information you get that in the one hand the media is reporting cows
are dying.
On the other hand here is an email from the SPCA saying
t h e r e i s n o c a u s e f o r c o n c e r n . Yo u d o n o t s e e i t – y o u d i d n o t r e a l l y
know which version do you believe. Are these even our cows that are
busy dying all over the project? I can up to today not say to you yes it
was our cows.
No, it was not our cows because it seemed there is also a
10

d i ff e r e n c e o f o p i n i o n w h e t h e r t h e c o w s w e r e p r o b a b l y b r a n d e d .

It did

not seem – now I am talking about information we got to know after the
P u b l i c P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t i n i t i a l l y c a m e o u t . T h i s i s m u c h l a t e r t h a n a t
the start of the project.
That it appeared that the cows were never properly branded
or tagged when they first arrived.
bought and delivered.

Those that seemed to have been

So it was – there was a lot of inconsistencies

uncertainties which we also later picked up in audit when there was a
reluctance from the department to disclose the assets as part of work in
progress in the asset records.
20

That we deal with extensively in the audit and accounting
treatment part. So it was clear that we had a feeling things were not
going that well but after the May 2013 site visit at that time it seemed
that the project had started.

Fields had been planted with I presume

maize or whatever it is that cows had.
I am not an agricultural person.

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The first infrastructure

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
developments had started. It looked like a project in progress. There
was nothing alarming in May 2013 that said we need to stop. We need
to reassess. It seemed that things were as it should be with a project
as it begins to be implemented.
ADV GCABASHE:

So you are here still explaining some of the

m e e t i n g s y o u h e l d w i t h M r To n y G u p t a . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: And you say that would have been one of the more
critical meetings you held with him to discuss what was going on at the
10

farm?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: And that meeting you held before you went on a site
visit – you personally went on a site visit?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . I t w a s M a r c h 2 0 1 3 a n d t h e n t h e l a s t r e f e r e n c e I
m a d e t h i s i s a r o u n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 . T h a t i s a b o u t a y e a r l a t e r. T h e n i n
between – around – I think it was September 2013 there was also a
request that we assist a student from India who had interest in
e n r o l l i n g f o r a M a s t e r ’s D e g r e e a t U n i v e r s i t y o f t h e F r e e S t a t e b u t i t
was completely unrelated to Estina and that was just a matter of – we

20

handed it over to the Department of Health to say please advise but I
do not think it went anywhere because the student had not qualified
a l r e a d y.
H e w a s s t i l l s a i d t o q u a l i f y.

Then he would have had to go

through the processes of writing the medical board examination and so
forth and so forth. It was a long process but that was just a request. It

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
was not linked to any other thing.
ADV GCABASHE:

Some of the other meetings – I have a list of

roughly about 14 meetings. Oh no, 20 meetings that my colleague has
noted for us. That you are said to have attended and my real interest
i s i n t h e E s t i n a / Vr e d e c o n n e c t i o n .

The ones you have told us about

those meetings are the only ones you can recall attending with
To n y G u p t a t h a t d e a l t w i t h t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t ?
MS ROCKMAN:

I think there were subsequently in April 2014 there

w a s a l s o a m e e t i n g , s a m e s t o r y, s t a r t o f a n e w f i n a n c i a l y e a r a n d s o
10

forth until the termination of the decision to terminate.

I think there

were quite a number of meetings that was planned that never took
place. There were two or three meetings which was cancelled at a very
last minute.
To t h e e x t e n t t h a t I h a d a l r e a d y a r r i v e d a t S a x o n w o l d . I w a s
dropped by my protectors and I was told sorry something came up. The
meeting is not happening and we had to – and we would leave again.
So there was quite a number of – a few of them, two/three of those type
of meetings, a number of others would have been planned.
It did not happen.
20

Either I was not available or he was not

available or someone got sick something like that.
ADV GCABASHE:

Did the Premier know that you were meeting with

M r To n y G u p t a ?
MS ROCKMAN: I am ...(intervenes).
A D V G C A B A S H E : I r e a l l y – y o u k n o w t h e d i ff i c u l t y i s i n p a r t y o u w e r e
m e e t i n g w i t h h i m a s D G i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e .

Page 78 of 190

So it is really that

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
reporting line. Would he know that you were doing so?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: On the other hand as an MEC you were meeting with
M r To n y G u p t a .

Again just the reporting – I am just trying to

understand the reporting structures or relationships and just how
informed the Premier would have been about what was going on right or
wrong with one of his mega projects.

10

MS ROCKMAN:

Well as DG he would have known about the TNA –

those meetings.

He would have known. As MEC I am sure he would

have known but we never attended a meeting together ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Ja.
M S R O C K M A N : W i t h M r G u p t a o r M r Z w a n e a n d t h e P r e m i e r.
ADV GCABASHE:

Did you attend any meeting with Mr Gupta and

Mr Peter Thabethe?
M S R O C K M A N : N o t t h a t I c a n r e m e m b e r.
ADV GCABASHE:

Would

you

have

attended

a

meeting

with

M r To n y G u p t a a n d M s S e i p a t i D l a m i n i , t h e C F O ?
MS ROCKMAN: No.
ADV GCABASHE: The other persons who are reputed to have been at
20

those meetings, not all of them some of them, are a Mr Ashu Chawla of
Sahara Computers. Do you know about him? Who he is?
M S R O C K M A N : N o C h a i r.
ADV GCABASHE: Did you have a meeting with him?
M S R O C K M A N : N o C h a i r.
ADV GCABASHE:

So no.

Not Chawla.

Page 79 of 190

Chawla - C-H-A-W-L-A

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Chairman.

T h e n t h e o t h e r o n e i s M r E v a n Ta k .

also reputed – also of Sahara Computers.

Ta k s p e l t T- A - K .

Is

Also reputed to have

attended meetings.
M S R O C K M A N : N o C h a i r.
ADV GCABASHE:

It would appear those meetings might have had

something to do with computers.

T h a t t h e P r e m i e r ’s O ff i c e i s a g a i n

r e p u t e d t o h a v e b o u g h t f r o m S u n d a y Tr a d i n g ( P t y ) L t d w h i c h i s o n e o f
t h e a s s o c i a t e d c o m p a n i e s o f S a h a r a C o m p u t e r.

Yo u d o n o t k n o w

anything about those meetings?
10

M S R O C K M A N : N o t a b o u t m e e t i n g s . I k n o w t h a t w h e n I w a s D G o ff i c e
of the Premier did buy laptops.

I think – I cannot remember the

purpose for it. At one stage it was for – it was either intervention unit
or community development workers.

The others would – may have

been laptops for students but I do not have those details but I did not
h a v e m e e t i n g s w i t h t h o s e – t h e n a m e s y o u h a v e m e n t i o n e d . N o C h a i r.
A D V G C A B A S H E : W h a t a b o u t M r K a m a l Va s r a m ? W o u l d y o u h a v e h a d
meetings with him? He remember was the Sole Director of Estina when
the agreements with DARD were signed.
MS ROCKMAN:
20

Chairperson I may have met him but I have no

recollection of ever meeting – being in a meeting discussing Estina with
him.
ADV GCABASHE:

He is also or was also a Director of the same

S u n d a y Tr a d i n g ( P t y ) L t d w h i c h i s w h y w e h a d a n i n t e r e s t i n f i n d i n g o u t
w h a t h i s r e l a t i o n s h i p i n t h a t c a s e w o u l d h a v e b e e n w i t h y o u . Yo u h a v e
no clue at all?

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN: No.
ADV GCABASHE: Never met him?
MS ROCKMAN: No recollection, no.
CHAIRPERSON:

So what is your recollection of the number of

m e e t i n g s t h a t y o u h a d w i t h M r G u p t a i n r e l a t i o n t o E s t i n a o r Vr e d e
Farm?
MS ROCKMAN: I would imagine Chair around four or five.
CHAIRPERSON: Around four or five?
MS ROCKMAN: Ja over the period.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

What was the venue or were the venues of

t h o s e m e e t i n g s ? I f y o u c a n r e m e m b e r.
MS ROCKMAN:

Some were at Sahara Computers.

Some were at

Saxonwold. Some were – either Bloemfontein that would have been not
the directly related to Estina ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: But mostly between those two.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o i s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t t h a t t h o s e t h a t
r e l a t e d t o E s t i n a o r Vr e d e F a r m e i t h e r h a p p e n e d a t t h e – i n t h e i r
c o m p a n y. T h a t i s t h e G u p t a c o m p a n y, S a h a r a , o r i n t h e i r h o m e ?
20

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Is that right?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: In Johannesburg?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s ,
CHAIRPERSON:

And you had to travel from the Free State to

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Johannesburg for that purpose?
MS ROCKMAN: Mostly we tried to have the meetings if I was already
in Gauteng for any other business.

Whether it was meetings – any

other kinds of meetings that I would be already here. It would not be a
specific trip.
CHAIRPERSON:

So it was not a situation where arrangements were

made for you to come for that meeting only?
M S R O C K M A N : N o . N o C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , b u t f r o m w h a t y o u s a y i t l o o k s l i k e t h e y n e v e r

h e l d m e e t i n g s i n y o u r o ff i c e a b o u t E s t i n a ?
M S R O C K M A N : W e h a d n o d i r e c t r e l a t i o n s h i p a s Tr e a s u r y w i t h E s t i n a .
So ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
MS ROCKMAN:

T h e e n g a g e m e n t i n t h e o ff i c e s w o u l d h a v e b e e n w i t h

Agriculture Rural Development.
CHAIRPERSON:
you

then

Hm, but why would they discuss Estina anyway with

instead

of

discussing

with

the

Rural

Development

Department?
MS ROCKMAN:
20

Purely from having the funding available in terms of

the budget.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , h m . O k a y.
ADV GCABASHE: Can I ask you about the 20 – November 2010 Diwali
Celebration that was held by the Guptas? Were you invited to that? So
it would have been in November 2010.
MS ROCKMAN:

I do not think I was invited, no but I did not attend

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
e i t h e r C h a i r.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u d o n o t r e c a l l . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS ROCKMAN: No.
ADV GCABASHE: Attending a Diwali ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: No.
ADV GCABASHE: Celebration in November 2010? Then the next one
is the Gupta family wedding at Sun City in 2013. Were you invited to
that wedding?
MS ROCKMAN: I was invited but I did not attend.
10

ADV GCABASHE: But you did not attend?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

Can you just – if you are able to assist the

C h a i r m a n i n u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h e t h e r a l l H O D ’s o r a l l M E C ’s w o u l d b e
invited to a function of that nature or whether specific people would be
targeted as invited guests? In other words why did you get lucky and
get an invitation? I do not know if you can answer the question.
MS ROCKMAN:

C h a i r I w o n d e r, t h e w e d d i n g i n v i t a t i o n I t o o k i t a s o n e

of those courtesy type of invitation, you know you invite people to
certain events because you work with the but you don’t really expect
20

t h e m t o t u r n u p . I t o o k i t t h a t i t ’s t h a t t y p e o f i n v i t a t i o n i t ’s n o t l i k e i t ’s
compulsory to actually go, you decide to go or you don’t go, I decided
not to go but I can’t say there was a strategy to say invite this one, that
one, the other one, I don’t know what informed, who got invited and
who didn’t.
ADV GCABASHE:

Do you know if any of your other colleagues who

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
were invited and who did attend?
MS ROCKMAN:

I think MEC Zwane at the time was invited, I think

HOD Thabethe was invited, I’m sure the Premier was invited, I’m not
sure about the others.
ADV GCABASHE:

And do you know if they attended?

MS ROCKMAN:

I’m under the impression that MEC Zwane and Mr

Thabethe might have attended I doubt whether the Premier has
attended I have no recollection but I don’t think he attended.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

Yo u k n o w w h a t w e h a v e f o u n d i n t e r e s t i n g i s t h a t

that wedding was hosted between the 28th and the 30th of April 2013.
Yo u v i s i t e d S a x o n w o l d t o d i s c u s s t h e p a y m e n t o f o u t s t a n d i n g m o n i e s
with Mr Gupta in April of 2013. Payment was made in three tranches,
payment of the R84 million that was outstanding was made in three
tranches, on the 18th of April 2013, on the 26th of April 2013 and the 3rd
of May 2013 and of course speculation out there and certainly from
some of our witnesses, is that this money was not used for Estina/The
Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t , i t w a s u s e d f o r t h e w e d d i n g .

Did you have any

idea as to what these monies that you were paying in April and in May
would be used for?
20

MS ROCKMAN:

We would only know what agriculture had presented

t o Tr e a s u r y i n t e r m s o f t h e s u b m i s s i o n . T h e t h r e e p a y m e n t s w o u l d b e –
would have been made in accordance to how cash was available. They
would obviously have preferred probably one payment for the whole
amount and we would have said to them, it depends. As and when cash
becomes available that is how we can pay but we would not go into

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
overdraft this early in a financial year to enable a payment to be made
but we would be limited to what agriculture tells us, to say they need X
amount, they must pay for A, B, C, D, E, we would not have had any
other information.
ADV GCABASHE:

T h a t ’s a f a i r c o m m e n t b e c a u s e w e a r e i n t h e

process of taking Mr Thabethe through the monthly and quarterly
r e p o r t s o f E s t i n a o n t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t a n d I ’ m s u r e t h e C h a i r m a n
will be pursuing some of these questions with him because he had a
look at what they reported on.
10

Narayan?

Can we briefly deal with Mr Ashok

Now you met him long before he became economic advisor

t o t h e P r e m i e r.
MS ROCKMAN:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r.

ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

Yo u w o u l d h a v e m e t h i m w h a t 2 0 1 0 / 2 0 11 ?

I would imagine around 2010.

ADV GCABASHE:

And at that time who was he representing in

relation to the matters you were discussing?
MS ROCKMAN:

I had always associated him with the New Age.

ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:
20

Do you at any point associate him with Estina?
I t h i n k I d i d y e s a n d i t ’s f a i r t o s a y t h a t t h a t w a s t h e

inference it was not only – when I started knowing him, in was in
relation to our dealings with the New Age but as it started evolving into
the Mahoma Mobung strategy and so on, I also realised that he was
a s s i s t i n g M r T h a b e t h e i n s o m e w a y.

I’m not able to say by when but

yes.
ADV GCABASHE:

N o w t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r N a r a y a n t o o k e ff e c t o n

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
t h e 1 s t o f M a r c h 2 0 1 2 , t h e r e ’s a l e t t e r s i g n e d b y t h e P r e m i e r t o t h a t
e ff e c t .

Yo u r e n g a g e m e n t s w i t h h i m , n o t j u s t o n N e w A g e b u t a l s o o n

Estina would have preceded the 1st of March?
MS ROCKMAN:

I don’t think on Estina.

ADV GCABASHE:

One of the issues that really arises in relation to Mr

Narayan is that he appears to have been wearing both an Estina hat
and an economic advisor to the Premier hat when he dealt with matters
relating to the dairy farm. Would that have been your observation as
well, just reflecting back on your engagements with him?
10

MS ROCKMAN:

Because I had known him from before the time of his

appointment to the Advisory Council and I hear you say there was a
letter from the Premier of a certain date. That council was announced
d u r i n g t h e b u d g e t v o t e s p e e c h o f t h e P r e m i e r.
ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

Date?
I t w a s s l i g h t l y a f t e r – i t ’s n o t t h e 1 s t o f M a r c h b u t i t

w a s i n M a r c h 2 0 1 2 , I d o a d d r e s s i t s o m e w h e r e i n t h e a ff i d a v i t .
ADV GCABASHE:

T h e r e ’s a 1 6 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 2 S O PA a d d r e s s t h a t

I think that that might be the one that you’re referring – no it must have
been after that because I know as a fact that his appointment took
20

e ff e c t o n t h e 1 s t o f M a r c h 2 0 1 2 .
MS ROCKMAN:

T h e a d v i s o r y c o u n c i l w a s , C h a i r, a n n o u n c e d d u r i n g

the budget vote speech of Premier on the 29th of March 2012.
ADV GCABASHE:

Excellent, that helps. Mr Narayan accompanied Mr

Thabethe to India.

There is a memorandum that he submitted to the

Premier requesting leave to go – Mr Thabethe wrote to the Premier

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
requesting leave to go to India and Mr Narayan was going to
accompany him.

Because at that time you were still DG in the

P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e , w e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h a t s u b m i s s i o n ?
MS ROCKMAN:

No Chair I wasn’t.

ADV GCABASHE:

S o n o t a l l s u b m i s s i o n s f r o m H O D ’s t o t h e P r e m i e r

would have come past your desk?
MS ROCKMAN:

No, unless they wanted the DG to recommend

s o m e t h i n g t o t h e P r e m i e r, t h e y c o u l d w r i t e d i r e c t l y t o t h e P r e m i e r.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

In that motivation which, Chairman for record

purposes, you will find at HH reference bundle D for Donald at page
1323.
CHAIRPERSON:

Page 13?

ADV GCABASHE:

23 – Estina reference 1323.

A couple of issues

arose in relation to this submission and I really ask for your view from
y o u b e c a u s e y o u w o r k e d i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e a t t h e t i m e . T h e f i r s t
thing the Chairman took up with Mr Thabethe was what was reflected in
paragraph 2.1, so I don’t know if you can find – I can read this to you
otherwise if you want to find reference bundle D and it will be 1323 but
essentially what – I want it to be convenient to you, what would you
20

prefer to do?
MS ROCKMAN:

I would rather listen, you can read please, thanks.

ADV GCABASHE:
“Provincial

W h a t ’s w r i t t e n h e r e a t 2 . 1 i s t h e f o l l o w i n g :
Tr e a s u r y

received

the

final

preliminary

a l l o c a t i o n l e t t e r f r o m N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y o n t h e 1 2 t h o f
D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 . A n a m o u n t o f R 1 m i l l i o n i n 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
R . 8 3 7 m i l l i o n , t h a t ’s R 8 0 7 3 0 0 0 , I p r e s u m e w e w e r e
b a t t l i n g a b i t w i t h t h o s e n u m b e r s b u t w e c a n t a k e i t , i t ’s
R8 073 000 in 2013/2014 and R8 073 000 in 2014/2015
has been allocated, additional to your baseline to cover
carry through costs on improvement in conditions of
service”,
A n d i t ’s t h a t l a s t l i n e t h a t ’s i m p o r t a n t .

To c o v e r – c a r r y

through costs on improvement in conditions of service and the question
from the Chairman at the time was what would this have to do with the
10

motivation to go to India. The response if I recall correctly was, oh we
were able to dip into those funds, they were available, they weren’t
necessarily firewalled for these carry through costs but these were
funds that would be available. I must say I didn’t quite understand the
answer but I knew that I would have a former DG coming to give
evidence and in that capacity I don’t know if you are able to explain
what this might have been about?

Yo u w o u l d u n d e r s t a n d b a s e l i n e t o

carry through costs.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s C h a i r t h e i m p r o v e m e n t o f c o n d i t i o n s o f s e r v i c e ,

y o u k n o w i t ’s a s a l a r y a d j u s t e d r e l a t e d i s s u e . N o w y o u w o u l d i m a g i n e
20

t h a t i n y o u r p r o j e c t i o n s h a v e 1 0 s t a ff m e m b e r s y o u ’ r e g o i n g t o n e e d X
amount more depending on how improvement of conditions of service is
implemented.

S o i f y o u l o s e t w o s t a ff m e m b e r s a y e a r y o u d o n ’ t

r e p l a c e t h e m , t h e r e ’s a t e c h n i c a l s a v i n g . S o t h a t w o u l d b e t h e w a y t o
say we have funding available that we can shift to accommodate other
expenditure.

I f y o u d i d n o t l o s e s t a ff m e m b e r s d u r i n g a y e a r o r y o u

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
i n c r e a s e d s t a ff m e m b e r s i t w o u l d b e v e r y d i ff i c u l t t o t a p i n t o t h a t
funding.
ADV GCABASHE:

So this really is an indication that there was money

allocated for conditions of service, salaries or whatever that might –
what other things might be entailed under conditions of service but
these funds were lying fallow – they were not being used and could
therefore be shifted in an adjustment or readjustment budget process.
Is that the essence of what this might have been about?
MS ROCKMAN:
10

It could be but you also need to look at the phrasing

i t ’s – N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y s a y s s p e c i f i c a l l y i t ’s a d d e d t o y o u r b a s e l i n e f o r
y o u r c a r r y t h r o u g h e ff e c t . S o o n c e y o u s t a r t t a m p e r i n g w i t h t h a t m o n e y
it might mess you up in future so it might be better to leave the money
as ring-fenced because presumably you needed this additional funding
t o m a i n t a i n y o u r c u r r e n t s t a ff c o m p l i m e n t a t t h a t t i m e b u t i t d o e s
happen.

Departments tap into compensation of employee funds

because you can move the funding out of COE but you can’t move
money into COE.

So in order to technically balance your books you

often tap into your COE funding.
ADV GCABASHE:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Then …(intervenes).
I’m sorry Ms Gcabashe can you go back to explaining

that conditions of – improvement of conditions of service issue again,
paragraph 2.1 of that memo from Mr Thabethe to the Premier says,
“Provincial

Tr e a s u r y

received

the

final

preliminary

a l l o c a t i o n l e t t e r f r o m t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y o n t h e 1 2 t h
o f D e c e m b e r, a n a m o u n t o f – h e r e i s t h a t R 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
that was written, I think we were told we should read it
as R1 million in 2012/2013 and …(indistinct) R3 million,
I

mean

R100 000,

R8 073 000

in

2013/2014

and

R8 073 000 in 2014 has been allocated to your baseline
to

cover

carry

through

costs

on

improvement

in

conditions of service”
Just give me that explanation again if you …(intervenes).

10

ADV GCABASHE:

T h a t ’s p a r a g r a p h 2 . 1 .

MS ROCKMAN:

C h a i r i t ’s v e r y d i ff i c u l t t o f i n d t h e r e l e v a n c e o f

paragraph 2.1 in the rest of the motivation, it just makes reference to –
t h e r e w a s a p r e l i m i n a r y a l l o c a t i o n l e t t e r f r o m N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y
…(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I think that was my concern, that I didn’t see what the
relevance of improvement of terms and conditions of service was.
MS ROCKMAN:

The next paragraph talks to the issue of identify dairy

farming and so forth and then the allocated budget of R17 million for
completion of three dairy plans. It does not say they have the funding
t o – I t h i n k i t ’s a p r e s u m p t i o n p r o b a b l y, t h a t w h a t t h e y w e r e t r y i n g t o
suggest is that they have funding available to undertake this trip but
20

t h a t ’s n o t t h e s t r i c t a n d t h e n a r r o w i n t e r p r e t a t i o n o f t h e l e t t e r w o u l d n o t
suggest that.

It does not actually say where are they getting this

funding from …(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:

The money from.
Ye s .
Ye s , a n d y e t i t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a l e t t e r t o d o

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
exactly that, isn’t it, to provide motivation?
MS ROCKMAN:

The Premier at the time would approve the principle

of the trip, he would not necessarily approve the expenditure part of
the trip.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MS ROCKMAN:

They would know whether they have the money or do

n o t h a v e t h e m o n e y.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS ROCKMAN:
10

Ye s .
But this first paragraph is a bit misplaced in this

l e t t e r, I a l s o s t r u g g l e d t o s e e t h e r e l e v a n c e o f i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d o f c o u r s e w h a t i s s t r a n g e i s t h a t a l l t h r e e

s i g n e d i t w i t h o u t a n y b o d y – i t ’s a s i f t h e y k n e w w h a t t h i s w a s a b o u t , w e
don’t know what it was about.
MS ROCKMAN:

T h e r e ’s n o o t h e r c o m m e n t s o r n o t a t i o n s m a d e , s o –

i t ’s j u s t s i g n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV GCABASHE:

Okay thank you.
Thank you Chairman. Then of course you note at

paragraph 4.1 we’ve got Mr Ashok Narayan undertaking the trip with Mr
Thabethe and the issue that arose in relation to that was whether it was
20

c o r r e c t / p r u d e n t f o r a d e p a r t m e n t t o p a y f o r a t h i r d p a r t y, w h o d i d n o t
work for government to undertake a trip to – a trip of this nature.

In

essence the department was paying for Mr Narayan to go to India and
t h e q u e s t i o n s t h a t w e r e a s k e d o f M r T h a b e t h e w a s , i s t h i s r e g u l a r, t h e
man is not employed by the Free State government, he is not yet
a p p o i n t e d a s t h e E c o n o m i c A d v i s o r, w h y i s i t t h a t y o u w o u l d s p e n d

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
d e p a r t m e n t a l m o n e y o n a s t r a n g e r. I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u c a n j u s t c l a r i f y
what might have been the position in this instance, especially because
y o u e n d e d u p w o r k i n g w i t h M r N a r a y a n i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e , o n c e h e
was appointed?
MS ROCKMAN:

Chair I would presume that Mr Narayan was going to

accompany Mr Thabethe in his capacity as a member of the Economic
Advisory Council, whether – I note your point that this three dates,
you’ve mentioned the letter signed by the Premier but it has happened
that third parties or other parties not employed by government that
10

their expenditure has been paid to participate in international visits.
ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

W h a t ’s t h e j u s t i f i c a t i o n f o r t h a t ?

Exposure, empowerment you can – it would depend on

the purpose of a specific visit to be undertaken, I don’t know what was
the specific purpose of this visit.
ADV GCABASHE: This visit was to go and find a strategic partner in
India and Mr Thabethe had done a desk top study and identified Paras
and decided he wanted to go and talk to them.

He had not selected

them but he wanted to talk to them about the possibility of becoming a
s t r a t e g i c p a r t n e r, s o t h a t ’s t h e o n e f a c t .
20

The second fact is that Mr

Z w a n e h a s s u b m i t t e d a n a ff i d a v i t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n w h i c h h e t a k e s
responsibility for suggesting that Mr Narayan, in particular accompany
Mr Thabethe, reason being, says Mr Zwane they were to deal with
protocol issues, foreign culture issues etcetera, etcetera so it was as a
convenience to Mr Thabethe but the question remains, are these
justifiable reasons for using tax payers money to pay for somebody

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
w h o , f r o m h i s o w n p r o f i l e – M r N a r a y a n ’s p r o f i l e i s q u i t e c a p a b l e o f
paying for himself to go to India and come back to South Africa.
MS ROCKMAN:

Chair I think it would depend on whether he wanted –

he had his own agenda to pursue in India, if he was only going on
request of Provincial Government then it might have been reasonable to
presume Provincial Government would pay for him. If he had his own
interests that he was going to pursue he should certainly have paid his
own expenditure.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

T h e r e ’s a m a t t e r I ’ m g o i n g t o b e t a k i n g u p w i t h y o u

l a t e r r e l a t i n g t o t h e M u n i c i p a l M a n a g e r o f P h u m e l e l a L o c a l M u n i c i p a l i t y,
Mr Moremi but part of that discussion I want to extract now and use
now because Mr Moremi says that when the Indian delegation arrived at
Vr e d e t o s p e a k w i t h h i m , o n e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h a t I n d i a n d e l e g a t io n ,
representing Estina was Mr Narayan. So we here have Mr Narayan, the
same Ashok Narayan, representing Estina in discussions with the
P h u m e l e l a M u n i c i p a l i t y, w e h a v e t h e s a m e M r N a r a y a n b e i n g p a i d f o r
by government to accompany Mr Thabethe to India. The question must
arise, which does he wear and how do you determine which hat he is
wearing at any particular point in time?

20

I don’t know if you can throw

light on this question?
MS ROCKMAN:

N o C h a i r i t w o u l d b e d i ff i c u l t t o m a k e s u c h a c r i s p

distinction. For all intents and purposes he was announced as a
member of that Economic Advisory Council so the expectation was that,
that is the capacity he would act in.

It would be very challenging to

manage interests if we also then say but he was representing Estina. I

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
cannot remember at that time that he was said to be representing
Estina.

I was not part of meetings in Phumelela so I would not have

that perspective that Mr Moremi would have.
ADV GCABASHE:

N o i n f a c t t h a t i s M r M o r e m i ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t , M r

Narayan indicated – and even in the negotiations themselves indicated
t h a t h e w a s r e p r e s e n t i n g E s t i n a i n t h o s e n e g o t i a t i o n s b u t t h a t ’s f i n e
b e c a u s e i t ’s n o t a m a t t e r, a s y o u s a y, t h a t y o u c a n t a k e v e r y m u c h
f u r t h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h a t i s y o u r r e a c t i o n t o M r T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e , i f I

recall correctly that Mr Narayan was needed for protocol purposes to
assist with protocol, are you able to understand that?
MS ROCKMAN:

C h a i r i t ’s d i ff i c u l t , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f M r N a r a y a n h a d a n y

specific protocol training but certainly he would understand the
language.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .
He would understand the culture.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MS ROCKMAN:

But apart from that I would not be able to comment

what else he could have done.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ja something that I maybe should have raised with

M r T h a b e t h e b u t h e ’s c o m i n g b a c k .

South Africa would have an

e m b a s s y i n I n d i a I w o u l d i m a g i n e , I t h i n k i t d o e s h a v e a n e m b a s s y,
there would be an ambassador there, I don’t know if there would also
b e C o n s u l G e n e r a l s i n d i ff e r e n t c i t i e s a n d s o o n a n d o n e w o u l d h a v e
thought that one of the things an Ambassador has to try and understand

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
is the culture of the people in the country where he or she serves and
t h e p e o p l e t h a t h e o r s h e h a s i n t h e e m b a s s y, t h e s t a ff a n d p e o p l e w h o
assist him or her would include, maybe advisors and people who
understand the culture when one would think that, then if Mr Thabethe
needed somebody who would advise him on those things the embassy
in India would have been – the South African embassy would have been
best placed to provide him with somebody without incurring the
expenses of travelling to India.

Is that something you are able to

comment on?
10

MS ROCKMAN:

Chair yes I think India has a – we have a High

Commission in India if I’m not mistaken, we are all part of the Common
W e a l t h s o i t ’s H i g h C o m m i s s i o n … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i s t h e d i ff e r e n c e i n t e r m i n o l o g y, n o t j u s t

terminology the substance is the same as an Ambassador?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s , s o t h e r e w o u l d b e c a p a c i t y i n t h e H i g h

Commission to take care of whatever protocol requirements, logistical
arrangements and so forth that would be available.

I would not know

specific dynamics that required this unless it is – I’m just not able to
comment further on that.
20

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV GCABASHE:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .
When did you first hear about this company called

Paras, so would it have been before the Exco decision of the 13th of
J u n e 2 0 1 3 , t h a t ’s a n e a s y d e f i n i n g p o i n t , w o u l d i t h a v e b e e n d u r i n g t h e
Mahoma Mobung discussion, you know which really would have started
a r o u n d N o v e m b e r – S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 , s o I ’ m j u s t g i v i n g y o u a t i m e f r a m e

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
that might assist?
MS ROCKMAN:
around

June

I think it must have been around – Chairperson I think
2012,

ja

the

Exco

submission

was

June

2012

…(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

On the 13th of June 2012?

Ye s .

ADV GCABASHE:

So you heard about Paras before that or at that

meeting?
MS ROCKMAN:
10

meeting.

I can’t remember having heard of Paras before that

B e f o r e t h a t m e e t i n g i t w a s Vr e d e D a i r y, I d o n ’ t n o w t h a t i t

was presented as – with that level of details now talking about Estina
and Paras and there were quite a number of names that later came in.
I think it was only after we got the copy of the agreement that had been
s i g n e d b e f o r e t h a t E x c o d a t e , t h a t w e h a d s e e n , o k a y t h e r e ’s n o w a
number of other entities that is involved.
ADV GCABASHE:

Would you know anything at all about the

relationship between Estina and Paras?
MS ROCKMAN:

N o C h a i r, s o r r y n o t h i n g .

ADV GCABASHE:
20

Did you have any meetings with anybody from

Paras?
MS ROCKMAN:

N o , n o C h a i r.

ADV GCABASHE:

Did you come across payments that had to be made

specifically to Paras for services rendered to Estina or in relation to the
dairy farm?
MS ROCKMAN:

N o C h a i r.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE:

So the only people who would have talked to you

a b o u t m o n e y r e a l l y a n d E s t i n a – r a t h e r m o n e y a n d t h e Vr e d e D a i r y
F a r m w o u l d h a v e b e e n M r To n y G u p t a , a s w e ’ v e a l r e a d y d i s c u s s e d ?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s , i n t e r m s o f b u d g e t .

ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .
Not of expenditure and who they had sub-contracted,

no there was not that level of discussion.
ADV GCABASHE:

Correct, we will of course come a little later to the

F r e e S t a t e D e v e l o p m e n t C o r p o r a t i o n b u t I t h i n k t h a t ’s a m a t t e r w e ’ l l
10

raise with you just after lunch.

C h a i r m a n I n o t i c e i t ’s j u s t a b o u t 1

o’clock I’m now moving actually to the regulatory framework and just so
t h a t y o u k n o w w h e r e w e ’ r e m o v i n g t o n o w, I ’ l l b e p u t t i n g t h e t e s t i m o n y
o f M r J a n k i e l s o h n t o y o u a n d w e ’ l l r e a l l y b e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h a t R 11 4
m i l l i o n , h o w – w h a t p r o v i s i o n w a s m a d e f o r i t , t h a t ’s t h e a r e a w e ’ r e n o w
going to move into after lunch.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s W e ’ l l t a k e t h e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t b u t m a y b e M s

Rockman, I can just mention this so that maybe during the lunch break
you can reflect on it and see whether later on you might be able to
e n l i g h t e n m e o n . W h e n I r e a d y o u r a ff i d a v i t I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t
20

you may have been trying to stay away from accusing anybody of not
doing the right things, of not following procedures that were supposed
to be followed and that all you wanted to do is just give us certain
i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t y o u c a n b a c k - u p w i t h d o c u m e n t s , w h e t h e r i t ’s a
resolution or the passing of a bill, adjustment bill or appropriation bill
o r w h a t e v e r.

W h a t I w a s e x p e c t i n g f r o m y o u r a ff i d a v i t s t a t e m e n t w a s

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
something along the lines that, having set out what the role of
provincial treasury is, then to say in regard to Estina, here is what was
supposed to happen, it was done, here is what was supposed to happen
i t w a s n ’ t d o n e a n d d e a l w i t h i t i n t h a t w a y. I s e e m t o s t r u g g l e t o f i n d
t h a t , s o y o u m i g h t b e a b l e l a t e r o n t o e n l i g h t e n m e b u t t h a t ’s w h a t I w a s
expecting I found that a lot of it was really saying this is the framework,
t h a t ’s t h e f r a m e w o r k b u t w i t h o u t c o n n e c t i n g i t t o s a y, l e t ’s l o o k a t
whether certain things in regard to Estina were done with full
compliance with the requirements and/or with certain procedures. So I
10

j u s t w a n t y o u t o k n o w t h a t t h a t ’s a c o n c e r n I h a v e a b o u t y o u – o n e o f
the concerns I have about your statement and later on you could
enlighten me on it.

We are going to take the lunch adjournment and

well resume at 14:00, we adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t u s c o n t i n u e .
ADV GCABASHE:

Thank you Chairman.

Ms Rockman we are now

going to just try and understand whether Section 38.2 of the PFMA was
20

complied with by the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development
a n d i f n o t w h a t s t e p s w e r e t a k e n b y P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y t o d e a l w i t h
t h i s i r r e g u l a r i t y ? I t m a y n o t j u s t b e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y y o u m a y w a n t
to indicate other institutions within the Regulatory framework that are
supposed to monitor and correct non-compliance. So are you ready?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE:

The focal provisions that relate to your oversight

f u n c t i o n s a r e f o u n d i n i f I a m n o t w r o n g C h a p t e r 3 . Ye s C h a p t e r 3 o f
the PFMA.

I do not know if you do not really need the Act but I can

take you to it if you think you might want to use it.

Are you alright

without it?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: It is in the Legislative bundle under tab 3.
M S R O C K M A N : O k a y.
A D V G C A B A S H E : B u t s h a l l w e j u s t c o n t i n u e ? Yo u w i l l t e l l m e i f y o u
10

want to actually pull ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
ADV GCABASHE:

The Act out. At of course Section 17 and 18 deal

with your powers and functions both as MEC and what you are able to
delegate to others. The other important provision we are going to deal
with – so I think the most important thing really about Section 17 let us
just pause here for a minute. Is 17.2 which says;
“The MEC for Finance as the Head of a Provincial
Tr e a s u r y t a k e s t h e p o l i c y a n d o t h e r d e c i s i o n s o f t h e
Tr e a s u r y e x c e p t t h o s e d e c i s i o n s t a k e n a s a r e s u l t o f a
20

delegation or instruction in terms of Section 20.”
Yo u a r e t h e H e a d o f t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y. T h a t i s t h e m o s t
important thing about Section 17. Am I correct?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s a s t h e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Well you mean she was.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .

Page 99 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
A D V G C A B A S H E : W e l l y e s . I n y o u r c a p a c i t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: At the time. In your capacity yes Chairman.
MS ROCKMAN: But not at – sorry – Chair not at the time.
ADV GCABASHE: In 2013 as of April 2013.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE: Let us be very specific.
MS ROCKMAN: As of March 2013 but not as of June 2012.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

A b s o l u t e l y.

June 2012 you were still in the

P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

That is correct.

And in fact that is part of the

d i ff i c u l t y b e c a u s e I t e n d y o u a s k y o u q u e s t i o n s t h a t s p e a k t o 2 0 1 2
whereas quite frankly they are questions that relate to 2013.

So

whenever I do that just bring us back to the correct timeframe and
simply say I will relate to what happened in 2013 when I was MEC for
F i n a n c e . T h e n t h a t w i l l t h e n c o n t e x t u a l i s e p r o p e r l y y o u r a n s w e r.
M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: But of course you may ask her some questions when
20

she was not MEC of Finance if you want information that could be
expected of – that she could be expected to know because of her
experience as both DG of the Province and MEC Finance.
ADV GCABASHE: Indeed so Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: In terms of procedures and so on. Ja.
A D V G C A B A S H E : A b s o l u t e l y.

Page 100 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
CHAIRPERSON: And then she can throw light on the basis of what she
knows even if she was not occupying the particular position.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE:

I think it is useful to contextualise this round of

evidence by just reminding you about what Mr Jankielsohn said.

He

essentially said and it was not only about you it was about the Premier
and other members of Exco that in your capacity as members of Exco
and he names you MEC of Finance as well in that grouping that you
10

were one of the individuals who was and I quote:
“Pertinently aware of the issues and problems relating
to Estina and in spite of that allowed substantial
payments to be made towards this project while being
pertinently aware of these issues.”
That is the one comment. He goes on and I really paraphrase
his other comments. He goes on to intimate that you were aware of the
skewed allocation of shares to Estina and that fact that Estina never
contributed any of its own funds.
H e a l s o p o i n t s o u t t h a t t h e c o n t r a c t w a s d r a f t e d i n t h e o ff i c e o f

20

t h e P r e m i e r.

Last he goes on to say and I have not taken everything

out of his transcript verbatim but this is the last section that I would
like to add.

He also says that you were aware that there were no

beneficiaries in this project.
And

I

suppose

this

is

an

important

point

because

the

conditional grant allocations relevant here the CASP allocation and to

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
the extent that it was used the Ilima Letsema allocation that Ms Elder
Mtshiza testified about at this Commission would have been processed
t h r o u g h t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y.
If I might just add to this list of indicators that Mr Jankielsohn
placed on record is that you were a member of Exco when the FDC, the
Free State Development Corporation, was appointed to take over from
Estina.
Now Mr Jankielsohn noted that substantial funds were paid to
FDC and its agent …(indistinct). So when we look at these comments
10

t h e y r e a l l y g i v e c o n t e x t t o t h e q u e s t i o n s t h a t a r e g o i n g t o f o l l o w. A n d
there are comments made to you in your capacity as MEC for Finance.
The first comment really relates to how aware you were of the
issues that bedevilled this particular contract.

I do not know if you

want to very briefly touch on that know that you are still going to come
back to dealing specifically with the R104 million that had to be found
for each year for Estina. What is your response to Mr Jankielsohn?
M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I t h i n k i n m y i n i t i a l c o m m u n i c a t i o n
with the Commission I also indicated that I think Mr Jankielsohn was
r e l y i n g o n a N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n v e s t i g a t i o n r e p o r t w i t h a c e r t a i n d a t e
20

which he appears to have knowledge of which we never had a copy of.
And I indicated in the subsequent financial years the audit reports of
each and every one of those financial years.

The Auditor-General

reflected that that investigation had not been concluded.
know what else Mr Jankielsohn was relying on.
Certainly ...(intervenes).

Page 102 of 190

So I do not

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: Can I interrogate just that first portion.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ja.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying that you did not have sight of that
report at any point in time?

It is actually a report that is dated

February 2014.

There are some versions that dated 2013 that is an

incorrect date.

The correct date is February 2014.

That is the first

fact.
The second one that I really want you to respond to is when
the Public Protector made enquiries about this matter the Premier
10

responded and gave a response that indicated that he was aware of the
report and had read the report which is why he was able to respond to
it.
W o u l d y o u n o t h a v e b e e n i n h i s o ff i c e a t t h a t p o i n t i n t i m e o r
would you not have been aware of that report having being sent to the
Premier?
M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k y o u C h a i r. I f t h e r e p o r t i s s o m e w h e r e i n 2 0 1 3
what I remember is that the Provincial Account and General at the time
Ms Fourie was giving evidence. I think it was around October 2013 she
made us aware that she was requested to meet with the investigators

20

a p p o i n t e d b y N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y.

So certainly at the time by then the

i n v e s t i g a t i o n w a s s t i l l i n p r o g r e s s . T h e H O D Tr e a s u r y l a t e r r e q u e s t e d
information from Agriculture Fishery and Forest – Fisheries and
Forestry about the progress of the investigation.
Tr e a s u r y n e v e r c o m m u n i c a t e d w i t h u s d i r e c t l y.
ADV GCABASHE: Who is us?

Page 103 of 190

Because National

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
MS ROCKMAN:

This is now after I had become the MEC Finance.

T h e y n e v e r c o m m u n i c a t e d w i t h u s a s P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y o n a n y a s p e c t
of the investigation asking us for information, asking us for assistance,
they

communicated

directly

with

the

Provincial

Department

of

Agriculture. So we were left in the dark.
Equally when whether it was a preliminary report or a final
r e p o r t w a s i s s u e s N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y n e v e r a s k e d u s f o r c o m m e n t s o n
10

the report.

They never asked us for input.

The report was never

r e f e r r e d b y t h e P r e m i e r t o P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y e i t h e r.
ADV GCABASHE: Was it not discussed at Exco at all?
MS ROCKMAN: It was never tabled in Exco for any form of discussion.
N e i t h e r w a s t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n o r a d r a f t r e p o r t b y t h e P u b l i c P r o t e c t o r.
I t w a s n o t r e f e r r e d t o P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y.

It was never tabled in the

Executive Council.
ADV GCABASHE: Can I ask you to pause again? Would it have been
quite regular for the Premier to have discussed this particular report
with Exco at one of the Exco meetings?
20

MS ROCKMAN:

I t i s d i ff i c u l t t o s a y.

Some reports on forensic

investigations some were presented, some were not presented.

If it

was a report on I could remember specific municipalities that was
placed under administration.

Those type of reports would mostly or

generally it would go to Exco and be presented.
specific matters it might not be.

Page 104 of 190

But the others on

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE:

The fact that the Public Protector got involved in

this particular matter again would not necessarily mean that it would
come before Exco in any form?
MS ROCKMAN: No it would not.
ADV GCABASHE:

I ask these questions because I know you would

have been DG at the time but there was quite a bit of irregular
c o n d u c t / e x p e n d i t u r e i n t h a t p e r i o d s p a n n i n g 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 t h a t t h e F r e e
State government was aware of. It was brought to the attention of the
relevant parties. Or am I wrong?
10

MS ROCKMAN:

Chair if you are referring to – I think the one big

problem that the Free State has or had was the 23 roads project that
was around 2009/2010.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: And then around 20 ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Just elaborate for the Chairman what that particular
project would have been about?
MS ROCKMAN: It was a project initiated by the Department of Police
R o a d s Tr a n s p o r t w h e r e w e e i t h e r r e b u i l t o r u p g r a d e d 2 3 r o a d s
s i m u l t a n e o u s l y.
20

It was pretty much a similar problem at that time as

u l t i m a t e l y Vr e d e D a i r y.

I t w a s n o t f u l l y b u d g e t e d f o r.

So the project

started, budget was or funding was committed and when it came to
payment obviously we ran into trouble.

Then a year later it was the

advance payment to material suppliers. It was …(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Material suppliers to which project?
M S R O C K M A N : H u m a n S e t t l e m e n t s o r r y. To H u m a n S e t t l e m e n t .

Page 105 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: Human Settlement.
MS ROCKMAN: Department of Human Settlement yes.
ADV GCABASHE: In what amount?

What were the amounts involved

there?
MS ROCKMAN: No. I cannot remember the exact amount.
A D V G C A B A S H E : R o u g h l y.
MS ROCKMAN:

But it was substantial because it was the Human

Settlements grant – conditional grant funding that we were at risk of
l o s i n g . I t h i n k i t w a s c l o s e t o R 1 b i l l i o n p r o b a b l y. I t w a s a s u b s t a n t i a l
10

a m o u n t o f m o n e y.

That led to cabinet invoking Section 100A of the

C o n s t i t u t i o n . I s t h a t D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 I t h i n k ? B e c a u s e t h e M i n i s t e r o f
Finance then issued a directive to the Premier January 2012 and if I am
correct indicating that certain measures had to be taken to ensure that
the Provincial Government comply with standard provisions of the
PFMA that certain performance audits had to be undertaken in
d e p a r t m e n t s I t h i n k i t i n c l u d e d P o l i c e , R o a d s , Tr a n s p o r t , H u m a n
Settlements and Education.

There was quite a number of issues that

the Minister covered in that directive.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . S o t h o s e w e r e t h e t w o l a r g e a r e a s w h e r e t h e r e
20

were irregularities and National Government then put the Free State
Government on terms and asked you to essentially monitor what was
going on and correct what was going on?
MS ROCKMAN: That is correct. It was not only the Free State at the
time.

It was the Section 100 1A interventions was Free State and

Gauteng Health I think and Limpopo was 100B.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE:

Ye s .

Yo u m e n t i o n t h e s e i n y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y

a ff i d a v i t .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV GCABASHE: So Chairman you will find the reference to the fact
that there was this directive made in terms of Section 100 1A of the
Constitution that impacted on the Free State. And this is why I ask the
question and what worries me about the fact that the irregularities
s e e m t o r e c u r.

Yo u h a d b e e n p u t o n t e r m s a s t h e F r e e S t a t e

Government here we have got yet another project. It might not be as
10

large as the R1 billion project but it is a substantial project in its own
right, the Estina Project. And again you have irregularities that occur I
would put that to you because again Section 38 2 was not complied
w i t h . A n d t h i s i s w h a t M r J a n k i e l s o h n i s i n e ff e c t s a y i n g t h a t y o u w e r e
aware that there were problems but did nothing about it.
MS ROCKMAN:

Chair if you could clarify?

We were aware of the

broader problems around the issues of budget not being fully secured
b e f o r e a p r o j e c t c o m m e n c e s . Ye s i n d e e d . W h e t h e r w e w e r e a w a r e o f
t h e o p e r a t i o n a l d e t a i l s o f t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t t h a t i s n o t s o m e t h i n g
Tr e a s u r y w o u l d h a v e b e e n a w a r e o f .
20

We did the oversight visit in May 2013 I indicated it seemed
l i k e a p r o j e c t t h a t h a s c o m m e n c e d . Va r i o u s a s p e c t s w e r e i n p r o g r e s s .
I t i s n o t Tr e a s u r y ’s r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o m o n i t o r t h e d a y t o d a y r u n n i n g o f
p r o j e c t s . Yo u w o u l d i m a g i n e w h e n w e d e a l w i t h t r a n s f e r p a y m e n t s w e
transfer hundreds of millions every year to non-profit organisations.
W e d o n o t g o o u t a s Tr e a s u r y a n d m o n i t o r w h e t h e r e a c h a n d

Page 107 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
e v e r y o n e o f t h o s e E C D ’s f o r e x a m p l e E a r l y C h i l d h o o d D e v e l o p m e n t
C e n t r e s w h e t h e r t h e y e x i s t . W e s i m p l y d o n o t h a v e t h e c a p a c i t y.
So the monitoring and evaluation responsibility remains that of
the Contracting Department and the Contracting Department was
A g r i c u l t u r e . B y s i g n i n g o ff o n e a c h a n d e v e r y i n v o i c e t h e y s i g n e d o ff ,
they confirmed goods and services rendered. They have complied with
all provisions to the PFMA.
The Executive Council functions as a collective leadership.
T h e r e i s n o s u p e r p o w e r e x c e p t m a y b e t h e P r e m i e r. T h e r e i s n o M E C
10

t h a t i s i n d i v i d u a l l y g o i n g t o s t a n d u p a n d s a y, w e h a v e a p r o b l e m w i t h
this project let us stop it or go outside the Executive Council that
c o n s i s t e n t l y a p p r o v e d a n d s u p p o r t e d t h e p r o j e c t . A n d t h e n s a y, n o w e
are acting on our own.
I remember clearly the project as presented in June 2012. The
MEC Finance at the time was in the meeting. I am quite convinced the
HOD was in the meeting.

They did not object to the approving the

memorandum at the time.

T h e y w o u l d n o t g o a f t e r w a r d s a n d s a y, w e

now object to the project. They would not act outside the collective.
ADV GCABASHE:
20

Yo u s e e I r e a l l y w a n t t o j u s t t e a s e t h i s o u t a l i t t l e

more because I have now found that Myburgh document that we were
talking about before lunch. And I also have I think it is your ER102 and
I think ER103 that is from your original bundle and that will be bundle
C. 103 is also a further report I think by Mr Moses regarding that visit.
N o w i f y o u w i l l r e c a l l r e a l l y t h e b a d p r e s s a r o u n d t h e Vr e d e D a i r y
Project really only emerged in early 2013. All was quiet in 2012. It is

Page 108 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
w i t h t h a t m e d i a r e p o r t a n d w i t h Tr e a s u r y a n d i t s i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t
p e o p l e s t a r t e d a s k i n g q u e s t i o n s a n d t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n 2 0 1 3 . Yo u
would agree with that? I call it the – yes the – l want – let me call it
the “bad press” in inverted commas around what was happening at the
p r o j e c t . Yo u t h e n f o l l o w e d o n i n M a r c h w i t h y o u r o w n v i s i t i n 2 0 1 3 a s
well.
M S R O C K M A N : I n M a y.
ADV GCABASHE: In May I beg your pardon.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
10

ADV GCABASHE:

But in January 2013, Mr Myburgh and here he is

part of the budget management directorate that is your ER102 at page
1 2 2 0 . S o t h a t w o u l d b e a t Vo l u m e C o f y o u r o r i g i n a l a ff i d a v i t . I a m
g o i n g t o w a i t f o r y o u t o f i n d i t . Yo u r o r i g i n a l a ff i d a v i t .
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u h a v e g o t t h r e e v o l u m e s t o i t . A , B a n d C .
MS ROCKMAN: Hm
A D V G C A B A S H E : H H 1 3 . I t s h o u l d b e o n t h e t a b l e . S o Vo l u m e C o f
t h a t i s w h a t y o u a r e l o o k i n g f o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Look at the spine.
20

A D V G C A B A S H E : H H 1 3 . Vo l u m e C a n d t h a t i s p a g e 1 2 2 0 i s w h e r e t h e
letter starts.

I am really just going to go straight through to the

findings which are on page 1221 in January 2013.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s I a m t h e r e . T h a n k s .
ADV GCABASHE: Can I also confirm that Mr Myburgh sat in Provincial
Tr e a s u r y ?

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s a l t h o u g h I w a s n o t t h e r e a t t h e t i m e b u t I c a n

confirm he was there.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . I n P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

A b s o l u t e l y y o u a r r i v e d m u c h l a t e r.

And he says

here that:
1. The land on which the project is to be developed
belongs to the municipality and they are currently
still
10

valid

leased

contract

to

other

commercial

farmers in the area. The contract will only expire in
August 2014 and no progress was made to buy out
these

contracts.

The

project

managers

can

therefore not do any developments on the land until
such time that the issue is resolved. We have had
corroboration

of

this

particular

fact

in

other

evidence that we have put to Mr Thabethe.
2. A total area of about 151 hectares have however
been planted with maize and beans.

These crops

will be cut and used as silage (feed) for the cows
20

when they arrive. So that you would call progress.
3. Some

money

tractors

and

was

spent

implements.

on

the
Tw o

purchasing
tractors

of

were

purchased with implements for them to work on the
f a r m . T h a t y o u w o u l d t i c k o ff a s p r o g r e s s .
4. No

permission

is

granted

up

Page 110 of 190

to

date

by

the

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Municipality for the project managers to start drilling
for water (boreholes) in the area where the actual
dairy (milking parlour etcetera) will be established
p r o b l e m . N o w w a t e r, n o f a r m .
5. The dam wall close to this area is on the verge of
collapsing but repairs cannot be made without
p e r m i s s i o n f r o m t h e m u n i c i p a l i t y. P r o b l e m .
6. Some ground work was done only to the extent of
levelling
10

a

construction

piece
of

of

the

land

where

silage

storage

supposed to be constructed.

the

actual

facility

is

Work has however

come to a standstill and no actual work is being
done as we speak. Problem.
7. Rough

estimates

would

be

that

an

amount

of

approximately 6 to 7 million could actually be
verified as expenditure on the project.

This would

include the abovementioned progress as well as
s a l a r i e s f o r s t a ff c u r r e n t l y e m p l o y e d o n t h e f a r m . ”
Now this is a report that speaks to the situation at the farm in
20

January 2013.

And I bear in mind that in April already Mr Gupta is

asking where the rest of the R84 million is.
These are the types of facts that Mr Jankielsohn drew on.

I

am not saying this report just the types of facts that he used to inform
h i s v i e w t h a t y o u w e r e a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w e r e p r o b l e m s . Yo u a s i n t h e
collective you but did nothing or very little about it.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

I am not able to comment on how this report was

p r o c e s s e d a t t h e t i m e i n t e r n a l l y i n Tr e a s u r y. W h a t I d o k n o w i s i n A p r i l
when the department approached us with the request for payment – for
f u r t h e r p a y m e n t s I h a d a d i s c u s s i o n w i t h t h e f o r m e r H O D o f Tr e a s u r y,
Mr Kgomongwe at the time who did raise queries – issues around the
January report.
We then established find from Agriculture certain documents
had been produced.

I t h i n k t h e y h a d f o r w a r d e d t h e f e a s i b i l i t y s t u d y,

whatever other requirements that was agreed to in June 2012 the prior
10

y e a r. I t w a s s u b s e q u e n t l y s u b m i t t e d . B u t t h e n w e h a d a g r e e d t o d o a
further over – further sight visit to establish in May now what was
actually happening on the farm.
S o t h a t w a s – b u t w e w e r e s u ff i c i e n t l y c o m f o r t a b l e t h a t m o s t o f
the January concerns by then had been addressed to some extent or
was in the process of being addressed that it was not necessary to take
any other actions at that point in time.
ADV GCABASHE: Now the report you speak of – the May report would
that be the one that was authored by Mr I J Moses? The date here is
the 22nd of May 2013? Does that sound familiar? It is ER103 the very

20

next document in that file.
MS ROCKMAN: No I am sorry on – in which file are you?
ADV GCABASHE: File C.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u r o r i g i n a l a ff i d a v i t . T h i s i s a n a n n e x u r e t o t h a t .
So the one we have just been reading from was 102 that was the one

Page 112 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Myburgh had presented.

And the very next one is 103 – ER103 the

page number is 1226 and it is titled Preliminary Financial Report on
M o h a m a M o b u n g a n d i n b r a c k e t s ( Vr e d e P r o j e c t ) .
MS ROCKMAN:

C h a i r n o t h e r e i s a d i ff e r e n t r e p o r t .

I think it was

drafted by Mr Leboni that directly speaks to the site visit. This was a
d i ff e r e n t f i n a n c i a l r e p o r t .

The site visit report of Mr Leboni did not

cover all aspects of finances. This is an additional report.
ADV GCABASHE:

But this is one that you have annexed to your

papers and it is one that says:
10

“The purpose of this preliminary report is to provide the
Honourable

MEC

for

Finance

with

the

i n f o r m a t i o n r e g a r d i n g Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t .

following
Project

background, cost and finding – funding implications,
progress on to date.”
That is what is written in paragraph 1. At 1 – page 1226.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s . C h a i r y o u a r e c o r r e c t .

I n m y m a i n a ff i d a v i t o n

E C R 0 1 0 6 t h e r e p o r t I a m r e f e r r i n g t o a b o u t t h e s i t e v i s i t o f Vr e d e D a i r y
23 May is ER43.
ADV GCABASHE: ER43?
20

MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
A D V G C A B A S H E : I h a v e i t . Ye s p l e a s e p o i n t o u t t h e s a l i e n t p o r t i o n s
of ER43 that you want the Chairman to note?

Again the purpose

essentially is the same? Exactly what Mr Moses has – had written.
“Purpose of the report is provide the Honourable MEC
o f F i n a n c e a n d t h e C E O P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y w i t h t h e

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
f o l l o w i n g r e g a r d i n g Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t i n b r a c k e t s
(Mohama Mobung). Projects background …”
CHAIRPERSON: I think hang on she is still trying to find it.
MS ROCKMAN:

I am so lost with this document that I do not know

where you are.
ADV GCABASHE: The page number is written in red.
CHAIRPERSON: I think maybe start with the Exhibit name on the spine
so that she checks whether she has got the right file.
ADV GCABASHE: It is file ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: Look at the spine of the file ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: And it will be File B.
MS ROCKMAN: B?
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s a n d i t i s w r i t t e n i n r e d – t h e p a g e s n u m b e r s a r e
written in red. It is 5-6-3.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . C h a i r I a m w i t h y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u f o u n d i t ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h a n k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV GCABASHE:

20

So were pointing to this as a report that you can

relate to?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

This is – I was with Mr Moses.

There was a

w h o l e d e l e g a t i o n o f Tr e a s u r y O ff i c i a l s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

T h a t w a s a t t h e s i t e o f Vr e d e D a i r y.

basic financial information.

It sets out the

It sets out what – paragraph 9 of that

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
report says:
“The 30 million was required to do one, two, three,
f o u r, f i v e … ”
ADV GCABASHE: Now ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: “… land acquisition …”
ADV GCABASHE: Continue.
MS ROCKMAN:

“…land

acquisition,

environmental

impact

assessment, feasibility study and so forth.”
ADV GCABASHE: Now remember we spoke about this earlier on about
10

the disjuncture between what Mr Thabethe thought the money – the first
30 million was for and what Estina thought the first 30 million was for
but continue.

At least here this corroborates what you said to the

Chairman earlier on.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: This is exactly what you said.
MS ROCKMAN:

We would not have information about what Estina

a l l e g e s t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d t o d o w i t h t h e m o n e y.

We are stuck with

the version that Agriculture tells us in whatever submission they made
they must do one, two, three.
20

A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

Then paragraph 14 deals with the progress on-site.

Then they do say paragraph 15:
“55 million was spent at the June 2013 the physical
progress on-site seems to be sluggish due to the fact
that bulk of the funds were meant for parlour equipment

Page 115 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
which was ordered. The milking parlour equipment has
not yet arrived.

However the order has been made.

From …”
ADV GCABASHE:

Ye s , b u t i f y o u j u s t w a n t t o p a u s e t h e r e f o r o n e

minute. There is again disjuncture between paragraph 15 and what you
agreed in paragraph 9.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE:

Yo u w o u l d a g r e e t h a t t h e t w o a r e c o m p l e t e l y

d i ff e r e n t ?
10

MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

Paragraph 9 is exactly what Agriculture

presented at the time they made the request for the first payment to be
m a d e . T h e y s a i d w e w a n t t o d o X , Y, Z .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: Now we are on the site visit a couple of months later
May 20 – May 2013.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

And we are told this is what has happened with the

first payment.
ADV GCABASHE: And you are told by who?
20

M S R O C K M A N : B y t h e o ff i c i a l s o f A g r i c u l t u r e .
A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d t h e P r o j e c t M a n a g e r. I a m j u s t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

I am just wondering if the Project Manager was

on-site.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h e P r o j e c t M a n a g e r w a s o n t h e f a r m b u t h e w a s

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
v e r y d i ff i c u l t t o u n d e r s t a n d . H e s p o k e w i t h a v e r y h e a v y a c c e n t .
ADV GCABASHE: That is Mr Prasad?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV GCABASHE:

So

your

information

really

came

from

the

D e p a r t m e n t a l O ff i c i a l s ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: The same people who had given you the information
in paragraph 9?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
10

ADV GCABASHE: Continue.
MS ROCKMAN: That would be correct. Then it says:
“The tractors that were purchased, the total area of
land that has been planted, the harvesting machine,
implements and other agriculture equipment.”
And we would not be – we were not doing a stocktaking. We
would not go to that level of details.
“The

construction

of

silage

bunkers

that

was

in

p r o g r e s s o n t h e d a y. ”
It - the estimate was – it was about 80% complete.
20

“Construction of dairy parlour was in an initial state.
The milk processing plant was not yet started as the
latter is interdependent on completion of the dairy
parlour and also relates to Phase 2.
Project

Manager

was

that

this

Indication from

project

will

gain

momentum immediately once approval of usage of land

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
f o r d i ff e r e n t p u r p o s e s h a s b e e n g r a n t e d b y N a t i o n a l
Department of Agriculture.”
And then it confirms the following obligations were executed:
“Land

acquisition,

environmental

impact,

feasibility

s t u d y. ”
They

were

in

the

process

of

finalising

identification

of

beneficiaries for the Agri BEE entity and there was a number of photos
that indicates.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
10

MS ROCKMAN: Then the recommendations. It was noted the amount
they had spent. It is note that progress seemed to be sluggish because
the

land

usage

application

had

not

yet

been

approved

and

it

recommended that we agree that we must make a follow up visit during
November 2013.
ADV GCABASHE:
Mr Jankielsohn makes.

Now

this

makes

the

precise

point

that

At paragraph 20.1 you are correct.

It notes

t h a t t h e t o t a l a m o u n t o f 8 5 m i l l i o n h a s b e e n s p e n t t h u s f a r.

Now we

k n o w w e c a n t a k e 2 9 m i l l i o n o ff - l e t u s c a l l i t 3 0 m i l l i o n o ff b e c a u s e
they said they had put that away to reserve it for buying milking parlour
20

equipment.
Yo u s t i l l h a v e a n a m o u n t o f 5 5 m i l l i o n t h a t i s n o t e d h e r e a s
having been spent so far and the simple point really is could you see
55 million as you walked around that farm? That is really what the site
visit was about. Could you see where the 55 million that you know had
c o m e f r o m y o u r c o ff e r s c o u l d p o s s i b l y h a v e b e e n e m p l o y e d ?

Page 118 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN: At that time we knew that a significant portion of that
money

went

into

the

studies.

environmental impact assessment.
physically on the ground.

For

example

feasibility

s t u d y,

Yo u w o u l d n o t e x p e c t t o s e e t h a t

The paperwork had been submitted and it

w a s s u b s e q u e n t l y f o r w a r d e d t o Tr e a s u r y. S o i t w a s t o A g r i c u l t u r e .
What was on the ground was exactly as I said.

It was a

project in the beginning stages of implementation.
ADV GCABASHE:

Yo u k n o w c a n I a s k y o u t o p a u s e b e c a u s e

interestingly enough that memorandum we showed you of the 28th
10

o f F e b r u a r y t h a t M r T h a b e t h e a n d M E C Z w a n e s i g n e d o ff o n a n d s e n t
through to the Premier author – asking for authorisation to go to India.
In the third or fourth paragraph of that particular memorandum
Mr Thabethe mentions 17 million that at that point in time was available
f o r – e i t h e r f o r p l a n s f o r t h r e e p r o j e c t s Q w a q w a , S e t s o t o a n d Vr e d e .
All feasibility studies.

There was a bit of a debate about

what exactly that 17 million had been allocated to but my understanding
o f M r T h a b e t h e ’s e v i d e n c e i s t h a t t h a t 1 7 m i l l i o n w a s i n t h e b a g . I t h a d
already been set aside for whether it is for the plans or for the
feasibility studies is immaterial at this point in time.
So when I then look at the 55 million that paragraph 20.1

20

w o u l d b e r e f e r r i n g t o s h o u l d y o u t a k e t h e 3 0 m i l l i o n o ff . I c o m e b a c k t o
asking as Mr Jankielsohn might have had he been here. Could you see
the South African taxpayers 55 million on this farm that you were
visiting?
MS ROCKMAN:

Chair for 2013/2014 in the APP there was 53.9

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
committed for – from CASP for funding. That is the Conditional Grant
Funding.
ADV GCABASHE: In which year?
MS ROCKMAN: 2013/2014.
ADV GCABASHE: 2013 – I agree with you on that.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: And from infrastructure enhancement allocation where
was 60.
10

ADV GCABASHE: 6-0?
MS ROCKMAN: Ja. 6-0 million.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: So that constituted the full funding. It was taken up in
the annual performance plan.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:
Department.

In other words it was approved by the National

At least the CASP funding of 53.950 million.

through the whole process that they standardly followed.

It went
The

Department of Agriculture would prepare a business plan, would submit
20

to the assessment panel of the National Department.
Projects would – some would be approved.

Some would be

not approved. There would be certain conditions. So the funding was
definitely secured.
ADV GCABASHE: Can I ask you to pause? Please do not forget where
you are going to because I am simply reminding you that that letter that

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
was written to the Premier asking for permission to go to India is dated
the 28th of February 2012. At that point in time this 53 million and the
60 million that CASP was giving for this particular project had not been
allocated yet.
MS ROCKMAN: No.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u h a d n o t s t a r t e d h a v i n g t h o s e d i s c u s s i o n s ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

And that is just the contrast I am bringing.

I am

simply saying and I am really looking at this letter ER43. At paragraph
10

20.1 at the 85 million minus 30 and really just asking in this context
knowing that Thabethe – he may have been wrong.

Mr Thabethe said

t h e r e i s a 1 7 m i l l i o n . H e s a i d t h a t t o t h e P r e m i e r.
T h e P r e m i e r s i g n e d o ff o n t h a t b a s i s .

Gave him permission

t o g o t o I n d i a . T h e r e w a s a 1 7 m i l l i o n f o r t h e p l a n / f e a s i b i l i t y s t u d y. A t
the same time you here have paragraph 9 that speaks of 30 million for
P h a s e 1 w h i c h i n c l u d e d a f e a s i b i l i t y s t u d y. A t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 . 1 w e h a v e
got 85 million which includes the 30 million that has already been
spent.
This is what people are telling you.
20

Yo u r o v e r s i g h t r o l e , t o

what extent would you have to interrogate some of what you were
s e e i n g a n d h e a r i n g ? I r e a l l y d o n o t k n o w. I a s k t h e q u e s t i o n b e c a u s e I
have not worked in Provincial Government. Otherwise I would have had
some sense.
M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k s C h a i r. T h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 b u d g e t w a s t h e l i m i t e d
one. It was one amount – one source of funding was 6 million.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: There were two sources of 3 million, 3 million of which
o n e w a s E P W P.
A D V G C A B A S H E : S o t h e t o t a l f o r 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 w o u l d h a v e b e e n 1 3 ?
MS ROCKMAN: 12 million - 12 million in total.
ADV GCABASHE: 12 - 12 million?
MS ROCKMAN: Ja. It was six million from ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: I have the 3.5 and the 6.5 and then another three.
M S R O C K M A N : S o r r y. T h a t i s t h e – a r e y o u i n 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 n o w ?
10

ADV GCABASHE: No, no. I am simply working from memory because
...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : O k a y.
ADV GCABASHE: I have been looking at these documents for a while.
MS ROCKMAN: 2012/2013 from CASP there was 6 million.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

Then

from

Ilima/Letsema

there

was

...(intervenes).
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: And then from EPWP there was 3 million.
20

A D V G C A B A S H E : O k a y.
MS ROCKMAN: So that gives you 12 million.
ADV GCABASHE: 12.5?
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
A D V G C A B A S H E : O k a y. Ye s a n d t h a t i s f o r 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 .
MS ROCKMAN: No. 2012/2013.

Page 122 of 190

3

million

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: 2012/2013?
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE: 2012/2013. Are you ...(intervenes)?
M S R O C K M A N : 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 t h e r e w a s n o d e l e g a t e d b u d g e t .
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
M S R O C K M A N : T h e r e w a s n o e x p e n d i t u r e i n r e s p e c t o f Vr e d e D a i r y.
A D V G C A B A S H E : J a . A b s o l u t e l y. I a m q u i t e h a p p y w i t h t h a t . I n f a c t
y o u p u t t h a t i n y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
10

ADV GCABASHE:

Because really Mohama Mobung was a concept

...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE:

Vr e d e

Dairy

was

hardly

a

concept.

So

...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE:

In

2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2

there

would

have

been

no

...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
A D V G C A B A S H E : A n d n o t f o r t h a t p r o j e c t a n y w a y. F o r o t h e r p r o j e c t s
20

but not for that project.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

Ja.

So I am happy enough for that.

So we are

talking 2012/2013, 12.5 million.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: I must say please I am moving around a little simply

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
b e c a u s e I h a v e r e a d y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t . S o i f y o u w a n t u s t o
do this in a more structured fashion by going through that. I am happy
if you would prefer doing that because you actually set it out very
n i c e l y i n t h a t s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t .
Every year what was allocated and what was spent but I am
quite happy with just doing high level - having a high level discussion
about these amounts.

As the Chairman has indicated he is happy to

drill down into the specifics at his leisure.

Are you comfortable with

continuing like this?
10

MS ROCKMAN:

Ja.

I am fine with whichever direction you want to

take.
ADV GCABASHE:

I a m – l e t u s c o n t i n u e t h i s w a y.

So we are again

looking at a high level discussion about the amount that were made
available. I am really focusing on this report because you have brought
it to the attention of the Chairman. ER43 and the conclusions drawn at
paragraph 20.1.
I am also pointing to the information that is contained in this
particular letter and maybe there is no answer to this because you are
g i v e n i n f o r m a t i o n . D i ff e r e n t b i t s o f i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t d o n o t r e a l l y m a k e
20

sense when you look at it in composite form but you are reliant on the
people who are giving you this information?
M S R O C K M A N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV GCABASHE: Is this really what you are saying?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: My only question then is Oversight Section 18 of the

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
PFMA.

Would one person not necessarily the MEC or even the

A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r, a n y o ff i c i a l n o t s i t d o w n a n d s a y w a i t a m i n u t e .
This does not make sense.

Yo u d o n o t d o t h a t t y p e o f t h i n g i n

P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y ?
MS ROCKMAN:

Not at such an early stage at the start of a project.

That would be not something we would be doing.
ADV GCABASHE: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: In addition to the fact that we do not necessarily have
t h e c a p a c i t y.
10

If Agriculture comes and tells you we have planted X

amount of hectare.

We have bought this, bought that.

the money has gone.

This is where

We do not have Agricultural economists in

Tr e a s u r y w h o i s a b l e t o t a k e a n i n f o r m e d d e c i s i o n .
We run into the same problem for example when we had the
h e a l t h c r i s i s . W e h a d a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e o u r h e a l t h o ff i c i a l s w e r e t e l l i n g
us but National Department of Health has introduced a certain tablet
that was 12 times more expensive than something that had been used.
I t i s n o t d e c i s i o n Tr e a s u r y c a n p r o n o u n c e i t s e l f o n b e c a u s e w e h a v e n o
clue.
We do not have the expertise. We do not have the capacity
20

t o s a y u s e t h i s p i l l . N o t t h a t p i l l b e c a u s e i t i s c h e a p e r o r n o t c h e a p e r.
It is too specialised for us to have an informed position on. We would
then defer to say National Department there is provision in the PFMA to
say if there is an unfunded mandate can you attend to it.
In that specific case we had asked for them to attend to it
a n d a b s o l u t e l y n o t h i n g h a p p e n e d s u b s e q u e n t l y.

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So it did not matter

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
whether we reported or not reported it.

There was no outcome.

So

those anomalies in Government exists like in presume inherently to any
other system it will happen.
I think it is important to note the way Agriculture structured
the agreement. It made provision for phases of the project and money
w a s g o i n g t o b e t r a n s f e r r e d X , Y, Z .

No one ever came back to say

guys let us take a step back. We are not comfortable with this. We are
not comfortable with that.
The
10

accounting

responsibility

remained

with

the

HOD

and

Rural

u l t i m a t e l y.
ADV GCABASHE:

Of

the

Department

of Agriculture

Development?
MS ROCKMAN: Of that department.
ADV GCABASHE: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN:

Yo u c a n a l s o s a y t h e l e g i s l a t u r e h a s a s p e c i f i c r o l e

w h e n i t – t o p l a y.

When it comes to consideration of the annual

p e r f o r m a n c e p l a n . T h i s i s p a r t o f – i t i s l i n k e d t o t h e b u d g e t . Yo u t a b l e
your annual performance plan before the budget vote speech is
delivered.
20

Now consistently throughout the years the State of the
P r o v i n c e A d d r e s s s p o k e t o t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t . T h e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V G C A B A S H E : A s o f 2 0 1 3 ? A s o f 2 0 1 2 a c t u a l l y.
MS ROCKMAN: I think it …(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Mohama Mobung you see ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: Because it is really two sides of the same coin?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: The budget vote speech of the department then goes
into further details. Now the APP is, the Annual Performance Plan, is
tabled before the budget vote speech.

It gets referred to the

L e g i s l a t u r e ’s C o m m i t t e e o n – i n t h i s c a s e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n
Agriculture

and

whatever

other

portfolios

were

linked

into

the

L e g i s l a t u r e ’s C o m m i t t e e .
T h e y c o n s i d e r t h e A P P.

10

They consider the budget speech.

They report back to the house. Now I have not gone into those reports
at all.

I a m u n a b l e t o s a y h o w d i d t h e L e g i s l a t u r e l o o k a t t h e A P P ’s .

What was the recommendations? What was that oversight role because
the oversight role cannot only be one entity or one party?
The first line monitoring and evaluation should have come
from Agriculture and Rural Development itself.
ADV GCABASHE: Hm.
M S R O C K M A N : Tr e a s u r y w a s l o o k i n g a t t h e f u n d i n g . T h e w a y i t w a s
budgeted.
20

It was also budgeted as transfer payments and I think I

d e a l t e x t e n s i v e l y i n t h e a ff i d a v i t o n t h e a c c o u n t i n g t r e a t m e n t o f t r a n s f e r
payments.
ADV GCABASHE: And we are going to come back to that because the
Chairman has a particular transfer payments.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

But let us leave transfer payments – I am sorry

Page 127 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Ms Rockman.
MS ROCKMAN:

I think you broke my train of thought there for a

minute.
ADV GCABASHE: I am – I do apologise.
MS ROCKMAN: But - okay the – it was budgeted as transfer payments
because at the time the accounting treatment was that a transfer
p a y m e n t b e c o m e s u n r e q u i t e d f u n d s . I t c e a s e s t o b e p u b l i c m o n e y. S o
y o u w o u l d h a v e a l i m i t a t i o n . T h e r e w a s n o w a y Tr e a s u r y w o u l d g o t o
Estina for example and say okay explain to us how you used this
10

m o n e y.
I t – t h e m o m e n t t h e t r a n s f e r p a y m e n t w a s a ff e c t e d i t w a s
unrequited funds and I think that is an important aspect that comes into
i t . N o w i n t h e a u d i t t r e a t m e n t I t h i n k t h e a u d i t s e c t i o n o f m y a ff i d a v i t
g o e s t o d e t a i l s o f t h e e n g a g e m e n t s w e h a d w i t h N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d
the National Accountant-General and the fact that it took almost two
years to get to a point to clarify is this a transfer payment or should it
be reclassified as goods and services.
So it may have looked that – I do not know what people
e x p e c t t h e Tr e a s u r y t o d o . W e w e r e n o t g o i n g t o j u m p u p a n d d o w n a n d

20

say we are stopping this project right here.

That was not going to

happen.

It does not work like that in Government but our behind the

scenes

role

on

trying

to

assist

Auditor-General

and

the

Accountant-General to get a sense of finality around how to deal with
the accounting treatment was – that was a critical part for us because
h a d i t b e e n c l a s s i f i e d a s g o o d s a n d s e r v i c e s i t b r o u g h t t h e w h o l e Vr e d e

Page 128 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Dairy Project and whatever was procured it would have brought it back
into the public sector and we could then systematically start working
through it but as it stayed a transfer payment and it was unrequited
f u n d s o u r r o l e w a s c u t o ff a t t h a t s t a g e .
ADV GCABASHE: I really must say we are going to come back to this
discussion. We must ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: I was about to say it looks like cannot win to shift it
t o l a t e r.
ADV GCABASHE: I ...(intervenes).
10

CHAIRPERSON: Because she seemed to deal with it but I am happy to
– f o r u s t o d e a l w i t h i t l a t e r.
ADV GCABASHE:

I think we should Chairman because it is a very

discussion and ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: And Ms Rockman is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE: It took them from 2016 to 2018 ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V G C A B A S H E : To g e t a d e f i n i t i v e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE: Directive ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : F r o m N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE: And it is – it ...(intervenes).

Page 129 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e c a n d e a l w i t h i t l a t e r.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE:

Ye s a n d t h e i m p a c t w a s n a t i o n a l .

It was not just

...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
ADV GCABASHE:

In relation to the Free State.

i m p o r t a n t a s p e c t t h a t w e w i l l c o m e b a c k t o l a t e r.

So I think – it is an
In the meantime I

hear what you are saying about the limitations or the constraints on
10

your oversight role and I note those and will move on so that we get to
t h o s e t r a n s f e r p a y m e n t s s o o n e r r a t h e r t h a n l a t e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Well if you are moving away from ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Not quite Chairman ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: The oversight role.
ADV GCABASHE: But you – please not ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Well if you are still with the oversight role you may

proceed but if you are moving away from it I want to talk – to ask her
some questions.
ADV GCABASHE: Chairman if you do not mind I just want to squeeze
20

in one ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE: Question.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a t i s f i n e .
ADV GCABASHE: If that is alright with you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t i s f i n e .

Page 130 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE:

And that really is just a reference to with – t o

M s E l d e r M t s h i z a ’s e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e w h e n t h e y w e n t – I t h i n k i t w o u l d
have been in June/July 2013 to go and inspect the farm. For one there
were no cattle there. They had been taken to another farm.

Did you

find cattle on the farm when you were there?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . O n e v e r y o c c a s i o n .
ADV GCABASHE: Each time. Oh, how many times did you go there?
MS ROCKMAN: It was May 2013. It was the first time.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
10

MS ROCKMAN:

Then in 2014 – I think it was 2014.

I was at the

Phumelela Municipality with an engagement that on municipal financial
management ...(intervenes).
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:
Business

And audit outcomes and Mr Odwa Dudu was the

Executive

for

the

AG

in

the

Free

a c c o m p a n y i n g u s t o g e t h e r w i t h M s A l i c e M i l l e r.

State.

He

was

She was from the

N a t i o n a l A G ’s O ff i c e . I n t h a t m e e t i n g I s u g g e s t e d t o t h e M a y o r t o s a y
look everyone is here. This is really like an elephant in the room.
Let us just ask do they want to see the farm or not. It turned
20

out Mr Dudu had at that stage already visited the farm before.
Ms Miller had not been to the farm. So that was the second time – the
second like visit to the farm. I will find the date.
A D V G C A B A S H E : D o y o u w a n t t o g o t o p a g e 5 6 , 5 - 6 , o f Vo l u m e A o f
y o u r o r i g i n a l a ff i d a v i t p a r a g r a p h 4 . 3 . 1 2 ?

I do not know if that is the

visit you are referring to.

Page 131 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV GCABASHE:

There would also be at page 44 reference to the

first visit – the 23rd of May visit.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: At page 44.
MS ROCKMAN: It was actually February 2015.
ADV GCABASHE: So that is the one on page 56?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : O f Vo l u m e A .
10

MS ROCKMAN:
farm.

But at both occasions there were cattle on - on the

I cannot – I really cannot say how many cattle, what kind of

c a t t l e . T h e r e w e r e c a t t l e . T h e y s e e m t o b e a f e w. W e w e r e t o l d o t h e r
cattle are in the fields – are in wherever but we saw cattle.

I took

photos of cattle. The numbers are – is obviously ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Give us a quick sense a 100, 50 ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE: 10. This is a farm that was ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h o s e t h a t y o u s a w. T h o s e t h a t y o u s a w.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja. That big structure that I think there were photos at
20

one stage in the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: The – that whole structure was full from front to back.
ADV GCABASHE: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: Cows were being fed. So ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t w o u l d b e y o u r e s t i m a t e 1 0 0 - 5 0 o r i t i s d i ff i c u l t

Page 132 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
to say?
M S R O C K M A N : I c a n s h o w y o u t h e p h o t o s . Yo u c a n . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Well because you were ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Yo u s h o u l d e s t i m a t e f r o m t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Because you were ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: MEC for Finance I nearly said you a finance person.
So you should know but that is not your background.
MS ROCKMAN: There ...(intervenes).
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e j u s t M E C f o r F i n a n c e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS ROCKMAN: There was not 800 in that ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S R O C K M A N : W h a t w e s a w.
ADV GCABASHE: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: Definitely not.
CHAIRPERSON: 500?
MS ROCKMAN: No. Far less.
CHAIRPERSON: Far less?

20

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE:
made.

Ye s .

So that was the first observation Ms Mtshiza

The other observation was they too found in June/July 2013

very little progress had been made. They could not see where their 24
m i l l i o n h a d m a d e a d i ff e r e n c e w h i c h i s o n e o f t h e i s s u e s t h a t i n f o r m e d

Page 133 of 190

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
their decision to withdraw – one of not the only one, one of the ones
that informed their decision to withdraw the CASP funding.
I just wanted to put that in Chairman but you had wanted to
deal with some of the oversight or related matters.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
MS ROCKMAN: Could I comment ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: Just before ...(intervenes)?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . P l e a s e d o .
10

ADV GCABASHE: Do please.
MS ROCKMAN:

I think that is another example of the fragmented

approach that Government had because as DAFF did that site visit we
did not have information on those details. They – for example they said
that there is a technical report.

We never had sight of that technical

report.
S o i t m a d e i t v e r y d i ff i c u l t a n d I – w e k n o w N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y
is now investigating something this side. DAFF is doing site visits that
side.

N o o n e i s t a l k i n g t o u s a s Tr e a s u r y a t t h e t i m e .

fragmentation really did not assist anyone.
20

So that

Mr Jankielsohn is saying

we did not do anything but realistically what else do you want us to
h a v e d o n e a t t h a t s t a g e b e c a u s e e x a c t l y N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a d a l r e a d y
initiated an investigation.
We cannot initiate another investigation. DAFF is doing site
visits. They are stopping their funding. If we had stopped the funding
at that stage then what. Except for being technically right. What was

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
going to happen to the animals on the farm? They were going to what die. It was not a solution.
I think the focus at that stage was that everyone was trying to
be right and no one was trying to find a solution to the problem and I
think that to me was something that we really had to take into account.
The animals were there.

They had to be fed.

They had to be

medicined. They had to be watered. They had to be milked.
Simply stopping funding does not make all these other
p r o b l e m s d i s a p p e a r.
10

I think it was November that – November 2013

that a further submission came. It was either November 2013 or 2014.
ADV GCABASHE: From?
MS ROCKMAN:

From Agriculture because we had not made available

funding in the adjustment budget.

I think it was November 2013.

We

had not made funding available because the funding was simply not
there and yet afterwards another submission did come from Agriculture
a s k i n g u s f o r – t o m a k e f u n d i n g a v a i l a b l e a n d t h e H O D Tr e a s u r y – i t i s
that letter with the long notation – handwritten notation to say though
we agree that we will make this funding available it does not mean that
we agree to the purpose of the expenditure.
W e d o n o t i n t e n d t o u n d e r m i n e t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y

20

investigation but he took into account the possible consequences of not
acting.

So it was – it is much more complicated than just to say you

should have stopped the funding.

There were specifically practical

reasons. I think we should also point out that at no stage did anyone
at a political level from National Government raise the matter with me

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
as MEC of Finance.
Not the Minister of Finance, not the Deputy Minister of
F i n a n c e , n o o n e , n o t t h e M i n i s t e r, D e p u t y M i n i s t e r A g r i c u l t u r e . I t w a s
not raised with us and we had a practice in the budget council which is
l i k e t h e M I N M E C o f t h e F i n a n c e M E C ’s .

There was space where the

Minister could raise specific issues directly with us and issues that was
raised at various times included, for example, over committment on
bursries as the Free State, it included Makufe so issues were raised.
Vr e d e D a i r y w a s n e v e r r a i s e d a t t h a t l e v e l .
10

It would have been

appropriate that at such a political level, if there was this substantial
concern, the Ministers would sit with Premiers, not only in the National
Executive Committee of the ANC, they could have discussed it there.
T h e y c o u l d h a v e d i s c u s s e d i t i n t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s c o - o r d i n a t i n g c o u n c i l ,
they could have discussed it in any other number of inter-governmental
forums. It was, to my knowledge, never discussed.

No one raised it

with us directly so I think that it also illustrates that it was not as easy
as Mr Jankielsohn may make it out to be.
ADV GCABASHE:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Can I say…(intervenes).
W e l l l e t ’s g o b a c k t o t h e l i m i t a t i o n s o n o v e r s i g h t .

I

t h o u g h t t h a t i t ’s p a r t o f t h e o b l i g a t i o n s t h a t N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a s , a n d
I w o u l d i m a g i n e t h a t w h a t N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i s o b l i g e d t o d o a t n a t i o n a l
l e v e l i s t h e s a m e t h i n g t h a t P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r i e s a p p l y t o d o a t
provincial level.

I thought that one of the obligations of National

Tr e a s u r y i s t o l o o k a f t e r h o w d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n t s a r e s p e n d i n g t a x
payers money and to take measures – certain measures when they

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
realise that a particular department might not be spending tax payers
m o n e y i n t h e r i g h t w a y. I k n o w t h a t I ’ m p u t t i n g t h a t a t a v e r y g e n e r a l
level. Am I mistaken in that understanding, I’m talking about National
Tr e a s u r y o n t h e b a s i s t h a t w h a t e v e r N a t i o n a l i s s u p p o s e d t o d o a t
N a t i o n a l l e v e l , P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y i s s u p p o s e d t o d o a t P r o v i n c i a l l e v e l
but you would be more informed and might be able to tell me that some
of the obligations are the same but others are not, they apply to both
but some don’t apply to both?
MS ROCKMAN:
10

Chair the basic workings would be the same, we have

f o r e x a m p l e w h a t w e c a l l t h e J u l y / A u g u s t v i s i t s o f N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y
where – but it happens at a technical level. All departments or at least
the …(indistinct) spending departments, your education, your health,
your police, roads, transport, the bigger departments. There would be
engagements, it would also serve as benchmarking exercises for us. It
would flag certain issues where there would be concerns, under
spending, over spending, over commitments, various issues.

Then

importantly we would have the provincial medium term expenditure
hearings.

That is sort of an assessment of where we are halfway

t h r o u g h t h e f i n a n c i a l y e a r, i t f o r m s a l m o s t a f o u n d a t i o n f o r y o u r
20

consideration of the adjustment appropriation bill as we begin to put it
together but it also informs priorities for the budget for the forthcoming
f i n a n c i a l y e a r.

So

literally

departments

are

required

to

report

e x t e n s i v e l y o n w h a t w a s i n t h e A P P ’s , w h a t h a v e t h e y d o n e u p t o a
c e r t a i n p o i n t o f t h e f i n a n c i a l y e a r, a b o u t h a l f w a y t h r o u g h t h e f i n a n c i a l
y e a r.

Our funds committed, our funds likely to be under spent, it

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
enables us also to see where funds are clearly not going to be spent.
W e w o u l d k n o w, o k a y w e a r e g o i n g t o t a k e m o n e y f r o m X , Y, Z a n d
reallocate to address pressures wherever else. So that processes does
happen and did happen consistently yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i n t e r m s o f p a y m e n t s w h e n P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y i s
supposed to either make payments or authorise payments this might not
b e l i t e r a l l y, t e c h n i c a l l y c o r r e c t b u t w h e n i t i s s u p p o s e d t o d o t h a t i n
regard to the projects of any particular department, is it not obliged to
c h e c k w h e t h e r, f o r e x a m p l e , c e r t a i n o r r a t h e r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s
10

have

been

followed

even

though

the Accounting

O ff i c e r o f t h e

d e p a r t m e n t i s t h e r e t o s i t w i t h t h a t . A r e n ’ t t h e y e n t i t l e d t o s a y, i f y o u
are asking for us to authorise this funding, you need to satisfy us that
you are going to spend it properly and properly includes where you are
supposed to follow procurement procedures, satisfy us that you have
followed them because if we are not satisfied that you want money to
spend on a project where you have satisfied or complied with
procurement procedures, we will not authorise.

If you think you were

justified not to follow procurement procedures for this project because
you believe there should be deviation, satisfy us that this is a deviation
20

case. Isn’t that the position because we won’t be party in that way to
you spending money in breach of the PFMA and the PFMA, as I
u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t i o n b e i n g b a s i c a l l y N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y l e g i s l a t i o n
therefore you would be the guardians of that piece of legislation?
MS ROCKMAN:

T h a n k s C h a i r, t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y p a y s i t s o w n

service providers. Departments request cash on a monthly basis, they

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
g i v e u s c a s h p r o j e c t i o n s . Yo u h a v e R 1 2 0 f o r t h e y e a r, s o e v e r y m o n t h
you get 10. If you project by December your spending is going to slow
down you will ask for maybe R3 and in January you will ask for 7. Then
e v e r y m o n t h w e g i v e y o u t h e c a s h , w h a t y o u a s k e d f o r.

Yo u r

disbursement of the money we allocate on a monthly basis is between
you, your procurement processes and your service providers, that is
why the irregularity of expenditure that occurs happens at the point
where the expenditure is incurred. Where the procurement takes place
and then in this case of agriculture where expenditure is incurred. So
10

we do not have sight on the details of invoices. What comes to us is
c a s h p r o j e c t i o n s , c a s h r e q u i s i t i o n s w h e r e y o u n e e d s o m u c h m o n e y,
this is in line with whatever the department would have projected for
t h e y e a r, w e w i l l c h e c k , d o y o u s t i l l h a v e m o n e y, h a v e y o u o v e r s p e n t ,
do we have cash available and then we would disburse.

If a

department suddenly wants two or three times the amount that we
would have anticipated, there would have to be a motivation to say why
w o u l d w e n e e d t h i s m o n e y b e c a u s e i t ’s c a s h m a n a g e m e n t w e h a v e t o
protect resources also, we are trying to make a little extra money with
bank interest and so forth.
I t w o u l d a l s o b e i n f l u e n c e d b y, f o r e x a m p l e , c o n d i t i o n a l g r a n t s ,

20
the

relevant

transferring

department.

We

would

only

release

conditional grant funding if we had received it from the relevant
National Department. So the details of expenditure would lie with the
Department of Agriculture in this case.

Those details would not be

submitted to us we would not have sight of invoices or that type of

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
procurement details.
CHAIRPERSON: Of course I heard evidence some time back in relation
t o t h i s m a t t e r t h a t N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n i t i a t e d a n i n v e s t i g a t i o n a n d w e
a l s o k n o w t h a t a Tr e a s u r y i s s u e s w h a t i s i t , i n s t r u c t i o n , I c a n ’ t
remember I don’t know the full term but basically giving guidance as to
– even with procurement as to what will be accepted as compliance and
what will not be accepted as compliance.

S o t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y

seems to play a very important role with regard to procurement and the
compliance with procurement procedures at least at National level is
10

that right?
MS ROCKMAN:
instruction

notes

Ye s a s N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y w o u l d i s s u e e i t h e r
or

it

would

issue

practice

notes

or

Tr e a s u r y

regulations, at a provincial context we contextualise.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

And then also subsequently issue a provincial

i n s t r u c t i o n n o t e t o s a y t h i s i s h o w t h i s Tr e a s u r y r e g u l a t i o n i n t h e
provincial context does this, this and this indications.
containment measures for example this is the same.

On cost

Yo u w o u l d n o t

a p p l y i t e q u a l l y a c r o s s t h e c o u n t r y b e c a u s e o f d i ff e r e n t d y n a m i c s , s o
20

we customise that into what is workable for us and we would issue
similarly such cost containment or relevant practice notes but the
r e s p o n s i b i l i t y w o u l d r e m a i n t h a t o f t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r a n d i n t h i s
c a s e , o n c e t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r h a d s i g n e d t h e d e v i a t i o n , h e
approved the deviation and stood by that deviation, I think we had a
long conversation and engagement with the AG on – at which stage can

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
this deviation be set aside.

I f t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r s t a n d s b y h i s

decision to deviate someone will have to approach court to set it aside,
who is that someone in this case?
CHAIRPERSON:

Well we’ll talk about that in due course because I

found that part of the discussion quite interesting but you have said
t h a t t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y w o u l d i s s u e t h e e q u i v a l e n t o f p r o v i n c i a l
instruction notes.
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Tr e a s u r y.

Ye s .
But who enforces them, is it not the provincial

Yo u i s s u e t h e m t o s a y, d e p a r t m e n t s m u s t d o A , B , C , D o r

m u s t n ’ t d o A , B , C , D i s i t n o t p r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y w h o h a s t h e
obligation to enforce those?
MS ROCKMAN:

In our key control matrix reports somewhere in the

a ff i d a v i t a n d s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t w e o u t l i n e a l l o f t h o s e a r e a s , t h a t
i t ’s a l s o a m o n i t o r i n g t o o l t o s e e w h a t i s o u r c o m p l i a n c e o f d e p a r t m e n t s
with relevant prescripts and so forth.

Those same instruction notes,

p r a c t i c e n o t e s e t c e t e r a w o u l d a l s o b e p r o v i d e d t o t h e o ff i c e o f t h e
Auditor General. So in the audit, part of the audit would be – it would
include the compliance with all relevant regulations, instruction notes,
20

practice notes etcetera that would have been issued. Then you would
also have the CFO forum that was chaired by the Provincial Accountant
General, they would report against these issues and it would depend on
the accuracy of their reports on the extent to which we were able to
m o n i t o r, c o m p l i a n c e o r n o n - c o m p l i a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

But you referred to monitoring compliance that must

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
be supervision that must be enforcement, why would you monitor if
y o u ’ r e n o t t h e e n f o r c e r, w h a t ’s t h e p u r p o s e o f m o n i t o r i n g ?
MS ROCKMAN:

Yo u w o u l d b e a b l e t o s a y, d e p a r t m e n t X y o u h a v e n o t

addressed, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 but you cannot – we did not have the
ability…(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: The power to issue a sanction?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ja to issue a sanction.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u w o u l d – p a r t o f t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y ’s
o b l i g a t i o n w a s t o m o n i t o r w h e t h e r, i n t h i s c a s e , t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
10

Agriculture

complied

with

PFMA

procedures

including

whatever

provincial instruction notes may have been issues, isn’t it?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s C h a i r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o w d i d i t m o n i t o r t h a t ?
MS ROCKMAN:

To t h e e x t e n t i t w a s a b l e t o y e s , I t h i n k w e d i d .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w h y d o y o u s a y t o t h e e x t e n t , w a s t h e r e a n y t h i n g
that prevented you from – when I say you, I mean the Provincial
Tr e a s u r y, w a s t h e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t p r e v e n t e d t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y
from monitoring the full extent of compliance or non-compliance, was
there anything which it could not – were there any corners it could not
20

go to, to check whether there had been proper compliance?
MS ROCKMAN:

In terms of all the standard procedures that would –

any department would expect to be followed I think all of that was
followed. In the case of Estina, specifically the deviation, there was no
recovery from the deviation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m s o r r y, j u s t r e p e a t t h e r e w a s n o ?

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

There was no way to recover from the fact that the

A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r c o n c l u d e d t h e c o n t r a c t b a s e d o n t h e d e v i a t i o n , t h e r e
was no procurement process followed, no other procurement process
followed. We could not redo a procurement process, the contract was
signed, Mr Thabethe was adamant he stood by the deviation that he
had the power to approve the deviation.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, n o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t I j u s t w a n t u s t o g e t

there at the right time.

So, but in terms of – as a response to my

question you accept that whatever it is you would have wanted to see in
10

o r d e r t o e ff e c t i v e l y p e r f o r m y o u r m o n i t o r i n g o b l i g a t i o n s , y o u w o u l d h a v e
been able to see if you wanted to see it?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s , w e w e r e n o t p r e v e n t e d f r o m g o i n g t o t h e f a r m ,

there was co-ordination if someone wanted to go to the farm they could,
n o o n e w a s p r e v e n t e d o r i n s t r u c t e d t o s a y, n o y o u c a n ’ t g o t o t h e f a r m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MS ROCKMAN:

That was never a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay so is the position that you are saying what you
did pick up as part of monitoring, maybe not necessarily as part of
monitoring but what you did pick up as a matter of fact is that there
20

w a s d e v i a t i o n . D i d y o u c o n s i d e r, a n d I w o u l d i m a g i n e y o u w o u l d h a v e ,
w h e n I s a y y o u a g a i n , P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y m a y b e y o u i n p a r t i c u l a r I ’ m
not sure, did you consider whether this was a case where deviation was
justified, because I’m taking it that if you have an obligation to monitor
you must have the obligation to satisfy yourself whether things have
b e e n d o n e p r o p e r l y o t h e r w i s e t h e r e ’s n o p o i n t i n m o n i t o r i n g i f y o u c a n ’ t

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
– if you’re not expected to form a view whether things have been done
properly?
MS ROCKMAN:

C h a i r, y e s t h e n I m u s t r e f e r b a c k t o – I ’ m a b l e t o

reconstruct how the MEC at the time and the HOD at the time applied
their minds from the available documentation. I think in other evidence
before the Commission it came out that the Provincial Accountant
General had advised that this is going to be a problem and the whole
process

that

was

then

agreed

upon

arising

from

the

Tr e a s u r y

C o m m i t t e e m e e t i n g t o s a y, u l t i m a t e l y t h i s – w h a t i s g o i n g t o h a v e t o
10

h a p p e n b e f o r e t h e H O D Tr e a s u r y a t t h e t i m e a n d t h e M E C F i n a n c e a t
t h e t i m e s i g n e d o ff o n t h e r e q u e s t o f A g r i c u l t u r e . I f y o u r e m e m b e r t h e y
said part of it was that the contract must be reviewed, there must be
further discussions on securing the funding etcetera. So at that time,
I ’ m n o t a w a r e w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e o t h e r e n g a g e m e n t s b e t w e e n Tr e a s u r y
and agriculture or anyone else in the environment, I only know what I
k n e w a s D G a t t h e t i m e a t t e n d i n g t h a t s p e c i f i c Tr e a s u r y C o m m i t t e e
m e e t i n g a n d w h a t w a s c l e a r t h e r e w a s t h a t Tr e a s u r y a t t h e t i m e w a s n o t
in possession of all the relevant documentation and part of what I had
t o d o w a s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t a g r i c u l t u r e p r o v i d e Tr e a s u r y w i t h t h e

20

documentation.
there

was

B a s e d o n w h a t t h e y h a d t h e y c o u l d n o t s i g n o ff a n d

that

process

of

engagement

and

going

through

documentation, consultation with the state law advisors and so forth
t h a t t h e n l e d t o t h e m – t h e H O D Tr e a s u r y a t t h e t i m e a n d t h e M E C a t
t h e t i m e , t h e y b o t h s i g n e d o ff o n c e r t a i n c o n d i t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Well you, like Ms Gcabashe you must also remind me

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
when I put you into matters where you were not MEC for Finance but at
the time that you became MEC for Finance and you became involved
with this, where was this whole project at that time. I’m now trying to
see what it is you may have had an obligation to check and what you
might not have had an obligation to check in terms monitoring or your
people under you?
MS ROCKMAN:

The approval was June 2012.

CHAIRPERSON: June 2012?
MS ROCKMAN:
10

Ye s t h e E x c o a p p r o v a l a n d t h e n j a i t w a s s t i l l w h e n I

was DG.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

I became MEC March 2013.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

The first funding had been paid before I had started

and then after I had started the funding was still made available.
CHAIRPERSON: Continuing?
MS ROCKMAN:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Ye s b u t d o y o u r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r – w h e n y o u

became MEC for Finance the problem about deviation had been picked
20

u p b y t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y o r n o t ?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s i t w a s a l r e a d y i n J u n e 2 0 1 2 .

CHAIRPERSON: Oh it had already been picked up?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s i t w a s p i c k e d u p a t t h e t i m e t h a t t h e r e q u e s t w a s

made for the first funding of the R30 million.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d I g u e s s t h a t y o u a r e n o t i n a p o s i t i o n t o

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
justify or not justify how it was dealt with before you became MEC for
Finance or are you able to – in terms of monitoring and what was done
pursuant to monitoring?
MS ROCKMAN:

From what is clear to me is that the Provincial

Accountant General at the time this is what he did advise that this is
g o i n g t o b e a p r o b l e m i t ’s l i k e l y t o c o n s t i t u t e i r r e g u l a r e x p e n d i t u r e .
The MEC and the HOD at the time acknowledged, I think, that
shortcoming in the procurement process but in mitigation agreed that
whatever contract that was signed before this matter went to Exco that
10

that contract had to be redrafted, that further funding solutions had to
be provided or had to be considered etcetera, etcetera.
CHAIRPERSON:

Okay alright so – but I think that what we have

e s t a b l i s h e d i s t h a t a t l e a s t p r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y h a s a n o b l i g a t i o n t o
monitor

and

that

includes

procurement

issues

even

though

the

A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r o f e a c h d e p a r t m e n t r e m a i n s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h a t .
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t t h a n k y o u .
ADV GCABASHE:

Chairman I would like actually to go back to your

visit, I know you’ve gone way beyond that but just to tidy that up
20

b e c a u s e y o u a r e t h e n t h e r e i n M a y o f 2 0 1 3 , i t ’s r e a l l y r e l e v a n t w h a t t h e
C h a i r m a n ’s b e e n a s k i n g y o u a b o u t y o u r o v e r s i g h t r o l e a n d a s y o u w e r e
speaking the comment I wrote down here that I want to pursue in the
context of you saying there was very little that you could do because
d i ff e r e n t i n v e s t i g a t i n g a r m s o f g o v e r n m e n t , w h e t h e r i t w a s s t a ff o r
w h e t h e r i t w a s N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y, w h e t h e r i t w a s t h e d e p a r t m e n t i t s e l f

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
w e r e n o t t a l k i n g t o o n e a n o t h e r, t h e y c e r t a i n l y w e r e n o t t a l k i n g t o
P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y.

The topic is still oversight – the oversight of

P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y a n d a s y o u w e r e r e s p o n d i n g t h e t h o u g h t t h a t w e n t
t h r o u g h m y m i n d w a s , y o u r d i ff i c u l t y r e a l l y o r c e r t a i n l y m y d i ff i c u l t y w i t h
your answer is by going there on a site visit you placed yourselves as
t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y s q u a r e l y i n t h e c a u l d r o n o f t h e d e b a t e a r o u n d
what that R85 million may or may not have done for the project because
y o u a c t u a l l y w e n t t h e r e a n d y o u m a d e c e r t a i n o b s e r v a t i o n s . Yo u c o u l d
have gone back to the department for instance and engaged with them
10

further because you were aware that they do get monthly and quarterly
reports am I correct?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

ADV GCABASHE:

Those are a must those are part of what they have

to get and I was just looking at – in fact my colleague just brought to
my attention a quarterly report that we have been dealing with Mr
T h a b e t h e a n d i t ’s E R 1 0 6 . 1 i t ’s a t – I ’ m a t p a g e 1 2 7 0 t h a t ’s C – Vo l u m e
C 1270, really and I’m interrogating what you’re saying about your role
– y o u r o v e r s i g h t r o l e , 1 2 7 0 a n d i t ’s E R 1 0 6 . 1 , t h i s i s a q u a r t e r l y
progress report dated December 2012 and I concede this would have
20

gone to the department and not to yourself but this information,
prepared by Estina, not by the department that was then filed with the
department and if we go over the page to point number five as at
D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 2 t h i s i s w h a t E s t i n a s a y s , i t ’s a t p a g e 1 2 7 1 p a r a g r a p h
five titled cow purchase they say and I quote,
“We are planning to make the purchase of cows by the

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
end of March 2013. For that we have visited more then
nine dairy farms and identified about 1 600 pregnant
Heifer cows. Their cost varies from R7 000 to R18 000
per animal depending on their pregnant status and
genetics.

They are quite careful in selecting the

animals for their production potential, health other
condition and age of the animals. Now we are going to
start

the

negotiations

for

the

purchase

of

cows.

Meantime we have also contacted some insurance
10

companies

to

transportation.

insure

the

cows

before

their

If everything goes well, cows will be

purchased during March 2013.”
Then over the page at page 1272 right at the bottom at (V)
they talk about setting up a cattle feed plant and then over the page
again at page 1273 (VI) purchase of cows in their report, I quote,
“Keeping all the facts in mind the Estina will try to
purchase at least 300 cows by the end of March 2013.”
The rest of the report really speaks to what they say were
limitations in getting this project going but if you were there in May –
20

M a r c h , A p r i l , M a y – 2 3 r d o f M a y, l e t ’s s a y t w o m o n t h s l a t e r I w o u l d l i k e
to understand from this report that they would have purchased no more
than about 300 cows, just from what they are saying here in this report,
does that make sense to you because you speak of the number of cows
you observed on the property?
MS ROCKMAN:

That number of cows was when I was with Mr Duda

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
and Miss Miller in 2015.
ADV GCABASHE: February 2015?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ja.

At this first visit there was not that number of

cows at the farm. There were some cows but not the number of cows
that was there in 2015.
ADV GCABASHE: So you would estimate that when you were there in
2 0 1 3 i n M a y h a v i n g n o w p a i d t h e e n t i r e R 11 4 m i l l i o n , r o u g h l y h o w m a n y
cows were there?
MS ROCKMAN: They were not in one place so you could not see all of
10

them at the same time. We were taken to the – where the calves were.
Others were in this veld, that veld. They were not in one place so you
could not get a picture to say okay the first X number of cows’ looks
like they have arrived and they are here. But as you indicate also Chair
the – this is the report between Estina and – and Agriculture.

This

w o u l d n o t b e t h e l e v e l o f d e t a i l s t h a t Tr e a s u r y w o u l d n e c e s s a r i l y h a v e
insight to.
ADV GCABASHE:

That is really the theme of your answer as I have

u n d e r s t o o d i t . T h a t a t a c e r t a i n l e v e l o f d e t a i l t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y
would not get involved. But you expect to be informed of any hiccups
20

o r a n y d i ff i c u l t i e s t h a t a r i s e b y t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r. S o t h e
C o m m i s s i o n s h o u l d r e a l l y c o n t i n u e t o l o o k t o t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r f o r
answers to various issues that are raised by witnesses who have been
to these proceedings.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s s i m p l y b e c a u s e w e w o u l d n o t b e i n v o l v e d t o t h a t
detailed level of operations on a daily basis.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . I a m m o v i n g o n C h a i r m a n i f y o u h a v e n o o t h e r
questions on this aspect?
CHAIRPERSON: Let us just – you know the visit to the farm I think Ms
Gcabashe is probably right that demonstrates something and one I
guess it demonstrates that you as Provincial MEC for Finance as
P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y y o u r e g a r d e d i t a s y o u r o b l i g a t i o n t o a t l e a s t g o
and have a look whether certain things are in place. And you probably
would agree with me that even though you might not be expected –
have been expected to deal with certain details but there would be set
10

b a l l p a r k s s o t h a t i f c e r t a i n t h i n g s w e r e n o t i n p l a c e y o u w o u l d s a y,
hang on what is going on here? Is that right? Am I right?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o t h e r e h a v e t o b e c e r t a i n f i s s u r e s t h a t y o u h a v e
t o l o o k f o r. I f t h e y a r e i n p l a c e t h e n m a y b e y o u a r e e x p e c t e d t o g o i n t o
finer details but if one or more is not in place that is supposed to be a
red flag for you to say come on Department of Agriculture tell us more
w e a r e n o t h a p p y. T h a t f a r w e a g r e e ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Now I would think that if you had – as Provincial

20

Tr e a s u r y h a d a n o b l i g a t i o n t o m o n i t o r t h a t i t c a n n o t b e r i g h t t h a t t h e
C o m m i s s i o n s h o u l d o n l y l o o k t o t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r f o r t h e
Department of Agriculture for answers.

I would think that what is –

what would be correct is that in regard to certain things the
Commission is entitled to look for answers both to the Accounting
O ff i c e r o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t a s w e l l P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y. B u t w i t h r e g a r d

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
t o s o m e t h i n g s t h a t m a y b e o n l y t h e A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r o f t h e
department. Because at a certain level you have said finer details may
be not but that means at a certain level you share certain obligations.
Maybe you do not share but you are – you were as the Provincial
Tr e a s u r y t h e s u p e r v i s o r o r t h e o n e w h o m o n i t o r s w h e t h e r t h e r e i s
proper performance. Maybe supervisor is not the correct term but you
are supposed to keep an eye whether things seem to be in order in
terms of performance.

And if you see red flags you are supposed to

intervene, is that right?
10

M S R O C K M A N : To a c e r t a i n e x t e n t y e s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t j u s t d e p e n d w h a t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MS ROCKMAN: Ys.
CHAIRPERSON: What things would be red flags or what things you are
supposed to look for?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s i n a s f a r a s c o n t r o l l i n g r e v e n u e a n d e x p e n d i t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: That they did not spend more than ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: What was allocated that indeed that – there was never

20

a question.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

That – what was outside the budget would be

supplemented.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

I t h i n k w e d e a l i n d e t a i l i n t h e a ff i d a v i t a n d t h e

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t o n t h e w a y A g r i c u l t u r e w a s a l s o i m p a c t e d w h e n
they received money and when money was taken away from the
department.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm
MS ROCKMAN:

Like I said also in the Provincial Medium tech

e x p e n d i t u r e h e a r i n g s t h e P M Te c h h e a r i n g s t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d t o
report in detail.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: They had to meet the monthly reporting requirements.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN:

The key control matrix reports.

Those reports were

a l s o s e n t t o t h e r e l e v a n t M E C ’s o f a l l d e p a r t m e n t s n o t o n l y A g r i c u l t u r e
b u t P r e m i e r a n d a l l M E C ’s r e c e i v e d t h e i r r e p o r t s . A t t e n t i o n w a s d r a w n
to certain areas that needed to be improved on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:
analysis.

I know in 2013/2014 after the audit we did the

We said per department this was your main issues in your

audit you need to know that you need to address this otherwise it is
going to impact your next audit.
20

So all of those things were done in

terms of the broader monitoring. We simply did not have the capacity
to monitor project implementation at the level of the details of specific
projects.

A l s o i n t h e e n v i r o n m e n t a t t h e t i m e Vr e d e D a i r y i s n o t a

particularly big project.

It might sound big in the sense of R250

million, R500 millions whatever how many millions it was but in
comparison to other budgets.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
When we had to intervene in the Department of Health we were
looking at accruals of between R700 million and R1.2 billion.

Then

obviously your focus shifts to where the bigger problem is in – and the
c o w s i n Vr e d e h a d t o l o o k a f t e r t h e m s e l v e s f o r a w h i l e w h i l s t w e w e r e
busy dealing with health.
The following education we had to intervene. So we had two
Provincial

Departments’

a d m i n i s t r a t i o n o f Tr e a s u r y.

Health

and

Education

then

under

So the environment was very complicated

and took up quite a significant period of time that would not have
10

enabled us to pay detailed minute attention to relatively let me say
small projects implemented by one department of Agriculture when we
had the big hitters like education and health that had specific problems
that had to be dealt with.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: So the capacity basically of our practical oversight or
monitoring that capacity just is not there.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Well we will come back to it when you talk about
the deviation and the implementing agents and so on.

I do not know

whether you were going to go there already or you still have some other
20

topic.
ADV GCABASHE: Chairman with your leave I had actually just like Ms
R o c k m a n t o l o o k a t h e r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: And just at least enlighten the Commission on the
funding sources. Ms Anna Fourie did tell the Commission that all funds

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
m u s t b e p a i d i n t o t h e P r o v i n c i a l R e v e n u e F u n d . Yo u a r e l o o k i n g f o r t h e
– 13 – HH – Exhibit HH13.1.
fairly small.

It is the smallish file so it is 13.1 it is

S u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t s o t h e n e w o n e y o u s e n t i n d a y

b e f o r e y e s t e r d a y. I s t h a t m a r k e d 1 3 . 1 t h e f i l e ?
MS ROCKMAN: No it is 13.
ADV GCABASHE: I think the big file on the – to your left is one top of
y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON: It is the smallest of the lever arch files.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

That looks like the right file.

I am going to – you

are going to take us through that material. Can I just continue to say
that of course Ms Fourie did give us a sense of the sources of funding
and she pointed out at the time that Section 21 to 25 of the PFMA
w h i c h g i v e e ff e c t t o S e c t i o n s 2 2 6 a n d 2 2 7 o f t h e C o n s t i t u t i o n r e g u l a t e
provincial revenue funds? That is correct?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : A h a . B r i e f l y u s i n g y o u r s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t t a k e
the Chairman through these funding sources just so that he has a clear
picture to where money comes from?
M S R O C K M A N : O k a y.

20

ADV GCABASHE: For this province.
M S R O C K M A N : F o r t h i s p r o v i n c e a n d a n y o t h e r p r o v i n c e C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Feel free to do it quickly because I have read it and
ja.
MS ROCKMAN: It is equitable share which every branch of government
has a share of national revenue and then it splits between the national

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
provincial and local governments whereas well. That is equitable share
it is unconditional funding.

It does not come with certain conditions.

From the equitable share in the Free State the practice was developed
that a percentage of equitable share was used for infrastructure
enhancement allocation.
That is almost like a provincial conditional grant. It also gets
published, it gets gazetted after the Appropriation Act gets passed and
assented to.

Yo u p u b l i s h y o u r a l l o c a t i o n s t o h o s p i t a l s , t o s c h o o l s , t o

municipalities and to departments.
Now the infrastructure enhancement allocation is meant like

10

co-funding to where a national department allocates conditional grant
funding but it is essentially to accelerate infrastructure development.
Then you would have your provincial own revenue that is basically our
t r a ff i c f i n e s , m o n e y t h a t w e g e t f r o m g a m b l i n g l i c e n c e s a n d s o f o r t h .
And then the next major source would be the conditional
grants which comes with specific conditions from specific national
transferring departments.
ADV GCABASHE:

Can I ask you a question in relation to those

c o n d i t i o n a l g r a n t s ? I s t h e r e s p o n s i b l e o n t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y t h a t
20

dispenses these grants to monitor how they are utilised?
MS ROCKMAN: No.
ADV

GCABASHE:

Does

that

responsibility

lie

exclusively

with

… ( i n d i s t i n c t ) w i t h t h e n a t i o n a l o ff i c e ?
M S R O C K M A N : I t i s b e t w e e n t h e N a t i o n a l Tr a n s f e r r i n g D e p a r t m e n t a n d
the Provincial Receiving Department.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: Hm. Does that not open those conditional grants to
– to abuse in the sense of shifting money from a conditional grant to an
area that the condition does not cover?
MS ROCKMAN:

Strictly speaking Chairperson that cannot happen.

Yo u c a n n o t u s e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n n o t s h i f t i t ?
MS ROCKMAN:

N o y o u c a n n o t s h i f t i t . Yo u c a n n o t u s e c o n d i t i o n a l

grant money for any other purpose.
CHAIRPERSON: For anything other than.
10

MS ROCKMAN:

Because that would then lead to almost immediate

withholding of further funds. And in the case of local government we
know – we have seen meek money for example utilised for operations.
N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i m m e d i a t e l y r e c o v e r s t h a t m o n e y.

So it should not

happen.
ADV GCABASHE:

Well this is what I want to interrogate.

Strictly

speaking it should not happen, I hear what you are saying. In practice
does it happen?
MS ROCKMAN:

I would be hesitant to say it happens at provincial

government level. I would concede that it happens at local government
20

level far more often.
ADV GCABASHE: Hm. Okay let us move on from that simply because
I am trying to rush through the next section.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh I wanted to say the answer you gave to Ms

G c a b a s h e ’s q u e s t i o n a b o u t w h e t h e r t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y w o u l d h a v e
a responsibility to monitor whether conditional grants are used by

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
p r o v i n c i a l d e p a r t m e n t s f o r t h e p u r p o s e s f o r w h i c h t h e y w e r e g i v e n . Yo u
said that that responsibility is between the National department and I
think the department concerned. I think.. ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: I think you said ja.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s m o r e o r l e s s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean that your monitoring obligation does not
cover that?
MS ROCKMAN: Not in any particular detail. For example we are not a
10

party to the process where provincial departments bid for conditional
grant funding.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN:

We do not have insight into what projects get

presented. In the case of Agriculture for example. They had a national
assessment panel.
the

agreement

Department.

Whatever projects get approved and not approved

is

between

that

department

and

the

Provincial

There is no role that unless a department would ask

P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y m u s t d o 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MS ROCKMAN:

The reporting for example – reporting would go

d i r e c t l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
MS ROCKMAN: The national department. There might as a courtesy
send us a copy?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN: But it is not limited to Agriculture. Human Settlements
for example we have no insight into the Human Settlement system.
CHAIRPERSON:

So would the explanation for that be because the

m o n e y d o e s n o t c o m e f r o m P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s I t h i n k m o s t l y.
CHAIRPERSON: That would be the explanation?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

So because the money – that money does not come

from you therefore you do not have a responsibility of monitoring
10

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Because the person or department that grants the

money is the one that has the responsibility to make sure that the
money is used for the right purpose?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h e D i v i s i o n o f R e v e n u e A c t a n n u a l l y w o u l d s e t
out in details.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: The conditions for such conditional grants and it may
assign certain responsibilities to treasury as well.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MS ROCKMAN: But we would – our execution of that would be limited
by the information obviously we have access to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s b u t j u s t t o – w i t h o u t b e l a b o u r i n g t h e p o i n t . J u s t
t o m a k e i t c l e a r.

Conditional grant funds are processed through the

P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y i n t h a t t h o s e m o n i e s a r e t r a n s f e r r e d i n t o t h e

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
P r o v i n c i a l R e v e n u e F u n d a n d t h e n P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y d i s p e n s e s t h o s e
funds to the departments that those funds are supposed to go to?
M S R O C K M A N : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV GCABASHE: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n t h a t w a y d o e s t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y a c t a s a n

agent of the national department or do you know whether it simply acts
i n i t s o w n r i g h t ? Yo u m i g h t n o t k n o w.
MS ROCKMAN: That is a – that would be an interesting question. No.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
MS ROCKMAN: The provision is ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: But particularly ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: Just that all funding have to be paid into the Revenue
Fund.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN: The departments give us their cash projections.
CHAIRPERSON: ja.
M S R O C K M A N : A n d w e p a s s o n t h e m o n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t j u s t b e a c o n d u i t p a r t y ?

20

MS ROCKMAN: We are basically a conduit.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN: For the funding.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l r i g h t . O k a y.
ADV GCABASHE:

But you are also the parties responsible for

ensuring that the Supply Chain Management Policies and Procedures

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
are complied with by various departments?
M S R O C K M A N : W e l l e a c h d e p a r t m e n t – e a c h A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r m u s t
e x e c u t e h i s r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s o r h e r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s a s A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r
in respect of Supply Chain Management but then yes as – from
financial governance perspective of that unit of treasury they would
exercise oversight over that – over that compliance.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So just to make sure I understand your answer to that
question.
10

To t h e e x t e n t t h a t c o n d i t i o n a l g r a n t s o r t h e e x p e n d i t u r e o f

conditional grants is supposed to be subject to PFMA procedures you
still have the responsibility of monitoring that PFMA procedures are
complied with by the Provincial Department that receives conditional
g r a n t s . T h a t p a r t r e m a i n s y o u r s . Yo u a r e n o t i n v o l v e d i n w h e t h e r t h e y
should be granted these conditional grants or not but if they are going
to

do

anything

that falls

within

the

mandate

of the

Provincial

government it is your responsibility to monitor whether they comply with
PFMA procedures?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
20

A D V G C A B A S H E : W e h a v e a g r e e d t h a t i n t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 f i n a n c i a l y e a r
w h i l e y o u w e r e i n t h e P r e m i e r ’s o ff i c e t h e r e w a s n o a l l o c a t i o n f o r
M o h a m a M o b u n g o r f o r Vr e d e m a d e b y t h e r e l e v a n t d e p a r t m e n t .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s C h a i r.
ADV GCABASHE: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE:

We then looked at 2012/2013 and we have agreed

t h a t i n t h a t y e a r R 1 2 . 5 m i l l i o n w a s m a d e a v a i l a b l e f o r Vr e d e ?
MS ROCKMAN: So let me just find the ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well if you tell her what you are looking for she might
assist you.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE:

Maybe if you go to – well page 5 to 6 deals with

2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 .
MS ROCKMAN: Hm.
10

ADV GCABASHE:

Then that is followed by 2012/2013.

2012/2013

starts on page 6?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: And I suppose the question that I am asking relates
to what you might have picked up that there is the R12.5 million that
w a s a l l o c a t e d t o t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t b u t i n t h e s a m e f i n a n c i a l y e a r
a total of R30 million was allocated to Mohama Mobung. Would that be
correct? 2012/2013.
MS ROCKMAN:

If you can give me the paragraph you are making

reference to?
20

ADV GCABASHE: So we are on – let me just pick this up. We are on
page 6 and it is IV where you say:
“Additional funding from Provincial Owned Revenue
adjustment

amounting

implementation

of

to

R14.045

Mohama

million

Mobung

Program.

Page 161 of 190

for

the

Development

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
V.

Additional

reserves

funding

amounting

implementation

of

to

from

Provincial

R15.955

Mohama

million

Mobung

Revenue
for

the

Development

Program.”
Page 006 paginated 6. Page 6 Chairman I should stop saying
00.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
ADV GCABASHE:

Paginated page 6.

M S R O C K M A N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s t h e . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
10

ADV GCABASHE:

So when we total those two amounts Mohama

Mobung would have received R30 million.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s . I n t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 a d j u s t m e n t b u d g e t .

ADV GCABASHE:

Ah let us just say that again.

I n t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2

adjustment ...(intervenes).
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE: Budget.
MS ROCKMAN: If you go to paragraph F on page 5.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s i n d e e d . I a m t h e r e .
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
20

ADV GCABASHE: But that means that it would then be used in which
financial year?
M S R O C K M A N : I n t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 f i n a n c i a l y e a r.
A D V G C A B A S H E : I n t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 f i n a n c i a l y e a r ?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

The year ending 31 March 2012.

M o b u n g w a s n o t j u s t Vr e d e D a i r y.

Page 162 of 190

So Mohama

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: Correct.
MS ROCKMAN: It was a lot of other initiatives was part of it. So this
indicates additional funding where it came from.

For example they

received additional funding for disaster management grant for – of
R4.736. It is that improvement in condition of service of R1.5. There
is R300 000.00 relating to veld fires.
the previous year for CASP funding.

It was a roll-over of R3.4 from
But then also a decrease in

current payments of R49.344 million.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s .
10

MS ROCKMAN:

S o i t j u s t s e t s o u t a l l t h e d i ff e r e n t c h a n g e s i n t h e

2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 f i n a n c i a l y e a r.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . C a n y o u d o t h i s f o r m e p l e a s e M s R o c k m a n ?
Can you keep that page open but can you also pick up your original
a ff i d a v i t a n d c a n y o u g o t o p a g e 1 6 a n d 1 7 o f t h a t . A r e y o u t h e r e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Right.
MS ROCKMAN: I think so.
ADV GCABASHE:

So your reference on page 16 under the Mohama

Mobung framework and I am assuming that we are here dealing with
20

b u d g e t a l l o c a t i o n s a s y o u s a y i n 2 . 2 . 2 f o r t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 f i n a n c i a l y e a r.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o A n n e x u r e E R 6 .
MS ROCKMAN: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE:

Please go to Annexure ER6 it is in the same

d o c u m e n t . Yo u w i l l f i n d i t a t p a g e 2 3 1 . A n d k e e p y o u r f i n g e r o n t h a t

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
page 16. I just want you to explain this to us. Here you say at page
16.
“The Executive Council discussed the proposed budgets
of

the

following

departments

and

agreed

to

the

summarised issues relating to these departments.”
Over the page 3.1.
“Department of Agriculture and Rural Development.
D. Provide more details and plans for dairy parlour and
p r o c e s s i n g f a c i l i t y i n Vr e d e a t t h e c o s t o f R 1 3 m i l l i o n I
10

presume that should be.”
Are you with me as far as that is concerned?
MS ROCKMAN: I think you lost me several minutes ago.
ADV GCABASHE:

Do not worry I am bringing you right back to page

1 7 o r y o u r o r i g i n a l a ff i d a v i t .

Yo u m a d e m e r e a d a l l t h e s e p a p e r s M s

R o c k m a n . Yo u s e n t t h i s s u p p l e m e n t a r y t h r o u g h o n M o n d a y. I r e a d i t .
S o l e t u s h a v e a l o o k a t – a n d i t i s a u s e f u l d o c u m e n t q u i t e f r a n k l y.
I am glad that you did give it to us. Because it elaborates on
s o m e o f t h e i s s u e s y o u r a i s e i n y o u r o r i g i n a l a ff i d a v i t . S o d o n o t t h i n k
that it is not being on any use. It has really been of use and I am sure
20

the Chairman will find quite a lot of value just from having that to
supplement what you had written in the original document. So page 17
of the original document.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : T h e n y o u m o v e – k e e p y o u r f i n g e r t h e r e . Yo u m o v e
to ER6 because you here refer to ER6. ER6 is on page 231.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : O k a y.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a r e a t E R 6 ?
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE: If you have a look at ER6 for one these are minutes
dated the 13th of June 2012.
MS ROCKMAN: ER6?
ADV GCABASHE: ER6.
MS ROCKMAN: I have it as the Record of Cabinet decision.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . A n d t h e n i t s a y s C a b i n e t M i n u t e N u m b e r.
10

MS ROCKMAN: Oh.
A D V G C A B A S H E : I t d o e s n o t h a v e a m i n u t e n u m b e r.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t ? Yo u a r e a t t h e r i g h t d o c u m e n t .
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

So for one the date is not the same date you

mention in your paragraph 2.2.2 unless I am misreading this. That is
the first issue. The second more material issue is I am really trying to
locate that R13 million that you say is at paragraph 3.1 of ER6. There
is no 3.1. 3.1 D. There is no 3.1 D at ER6.
20

MS ROCKMAN: Chair the paragraph 2.2.2 refers to the Exco meeting
29 February 2012 not to June 2012.
ADV GCABASHE: So 2.2.2 refers to an Exco meeting?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ja during its deliberations on the proposed budget

allocations for 2012/2013.
ADV GCABASHE: Ja.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN: On 29 February 2012. I think we might have referred
to the wrong annexure here.
CHAIRPERSON: Well 2.2.2 refers to Annexures ER5 not ER6 isn’t it?
A D V G C A B A S H E : C h a i r 5 i s a c o m p l e t e l y d i ff e r e n t d o c u m e n t . I t i s a
p r e s e n t a t i o n S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 o n t h e M o h a m a M o b u n g s t r a t e g y.
ADV GCABASHE: But what I am saying is – is the position that there
is reference to a wrong annexure there?
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s p r o b a b l y.
MS ROCKMAN: Ja.
10

ADV GCABASHE: I think that the issue I can – I would like to think I
can still raise the issue with you Ms Rockman because you worked is
with these documents and you are familiar with them. My real interest
is in that 13 million under 3.1 D. I am assuming that minute exists.
I h a v e n o d i ff i c u l t y w i t h t h a t a n d h e r e y o u s a y t h a t t h e d a i r y
parlour and processing facility were going to be put up at a cost of R13
million.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV GCABASHE: That is correct?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .

20

ADV GCABASHE: Good. That minute is February 2012 minute?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

W o u l d b e a n d m y q u e s t i o n r e a l l y i s i f t h e Vr e d e

Facility was going to cost 13 million I am assuming it is the same – it is
w o r k i n g o ff t h e 1 2 . 5 m i l l i o n w e t a l k e d a b o u t e a r l i e r o n t h a t h a d b e e n
budgeted for ...(intervenes).

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV GCABASHE: Because it is the closest to that?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE:

But

the

entire

Mohama

Mobung

budget

for

2012/2013 was 30 million?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . I t h i n k t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV GCABASHE: This 12.5 ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Just make sure that you speak loud

enough that ...(intervenes).
10

M S R O C K M A N : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r a n s w e r s w i l l b e r e c o r d e d . T h a n k y o u .
ADV GCABASHE:

This 12.5 is it part of the 30 million that was

a l l o c a t e d t o M o h a m a M o b u n g b e c a u s e a f t e r a l l Vr e d e f a l l s w i t h i n t h e
basked of Mohama Mobung Project?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a i r.
ADV GCABASHE: It would?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: When did this 13 million balloon into the royal sum
o f a b o u t 5 7 2 m i l l i o n – i f y o u t a k e a l l t h o s e 11 4 m i l l i o n o v e r t h r e e y e a r s ?
20

I am really just paraphrasing. I understand that the facility was doing
to cost 13 million in February 2012 but as at June 2012 it would appear
M r T h a b e t h e t h o u g h t i t w a s g o i n g t o c o s t t h e d e p a r t m e n t 11 4 m i l l i o n
per annum over three years or per financial year over three years. I do
not if you have insights into this.
MS ROCKMAN:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

I think we subsequently – I also

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
r a i s e d i t i n t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff i d a v i t t h a t t h e r e w a s a f u r t h e r
presentation during April where the amount of 13 million was confirmed
o f Vr e d e D a i r y b e c a u s e i n i t i a l l y w e t h o u g h t i t w a s a t y p i n g e r r o r b u t
unless it was a consistent typing error throughout a period of time.
It seems the cost was 13 million but I am not aware how from
the

February

presentation,

the

March

presentation

or

the April

presentation how it grew from the 13 million to the big mega project
...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Hm.
10

MS ROCKMAN: Presented ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: At Exco in June 2012 which needed additional funding
of at least 84 million for the first year and then the overall funding. I
have no insight into how and where that quantum changed and what
motivated it.
ADV GCABASHE: Fair enough you have no idea?
MS ROCKMAN: No. I do not.
ADV GCABASHE: Much as you have made inquiries.
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .

20

ADV GCABASHE: Nobody has been able to explain it to you?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h e r e i s n o r e c o r d s i n Tr e a s u r y t h a t s a y s t h e r e
w a s e n g a g e m e n t s . I t w a s m o t i v a t e d t h i s w a y t h a t w a y. I t i s i n e n t i r e l y
possible that this matter was discussed in the economic cluster and I
did not attend that cluster meetings.
It is possible but I have not gone into those kinds of records

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
of – Mr Thabethe probably presented also in these clusters – he did a
number of presentations but the – that it speaks to elevating the project
from a relatively small project under Mohama Mobung to the scope that
was presented in June 2012. There I have no insight to share.
ADV GCABASHE: But what ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON:

Would it have been – would it be correct to say

P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y w o u l d h a v e b e e n e x p e c t e d t o k e e p a n e y e o n s u c h
things? Any project within the Provincial Government, any department
within the Provincial Government that there were – they would have to
10

keep an eye if a project was initially said to require a certain amount
and then at some stage it – as Ms Gcabashe put it balloons into a much
bigger amount?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

I am sure Chair that this would have taken

Tr e a s u r y b y s u r p r i s e a l m o s t .
CHAIRPERSON: And they would have asked questions?
MS ROCKMAN: It was ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: At least you would have expected ...(intervenes).
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Them to have done so?
20

MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

Well

it

happened

after

the

fact

but

...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS ROCKMAN:

Certainly the – in the annual performance plan the

p r o j e c t w a s t a k e n u p a t a n a ff o r d a b l e l e v e l o f 1 3 m i l l i o n . I t s t a t e s 1 3
million. When the submission came to Exco it did not have – there was

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
previously – it was standard procedure that Exco memorandums with
f i n a n c i a l i m p l i c a t i o n s s h o u l d g o t o Tr e a s u r y f i r s t f o r c o m m e n t a n d h a v e
their comments already included before it comes to Exco.
In this case the – this was not done.

So I think Exco –

Tr e a s u r y w o u l d h a v e b e e n t a k e n b y s u r p r i s e t h a t t h e r e i s n o w s u d d e n l y
a project three months after the start if the financial year that is at a
much higher – that needs much more funding than what was allocated.
So I think it would have been obviously a matter of concern.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

Can I ask was that a directive that projects with

f i n a n c i a l i m p l i c a t i o n s m u s t g o v i a Tr e a s u r y – P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y b e f o r e
they are placed before Exco?
MS ROCKMAN:

Chair yes.

Exco

memorandums

–

it was

my

understanding by the time I joined Government that it even came from
the previous term ...(intervenes).
A D V G C A B A S H E : O k a y.
MS ROCKMAN:

That it was standard operating procedure that a

memorandum does not go to Exco without it passing through a cluster
and if it has financial implications that are not accommodated in the
budget.
20

I t w o u l d g o t o Tr e a s u r y t o e n a b l e Tr e a s u r y t o c o m m e n t .

To

say we have funding. We do not have funding. This may be possible.
This may not be possible.
ADV GCABASHE: So this is yet another directive that the HOD of the
Department of Agriculture and Rural Development did not comply with?
MS ROCKMAN:

He was not an HOD in the previous term of

Government that ended 2009 but it would have been I think a standard

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
procedure but it was often not followed.
ADV GCABASHE:

No.

Maybe I should rephrase the question.

Was

t h a t p a r t i c u l a r d i r e c t i v e o p e r a t i v e i n t h e 2 0 11 / 2 0 1 2 f i n a n c i a l y e a r ?
MS ROCKMAN: It would have been.
ADV GCABASHE: Good. So if it was operative and he was employed
a s o f A u g u s t 2 0 11 h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b l e t o f a m i l i a r i s e h i m s e l f w i t h
this particular directive?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . I t h i n k s o .
ADV GCABASHE:
10

Certainly his CFO, Ms Dlamini, would have known

about it as the CFO?
MS ROCKMAN: Senior management in Government should have known
about it.
ADV GCABASHE: So again ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: And ...(intervenes).
A D V G C A B A S H E : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d c e r t a i n l y a n A c c o u n t i n g O ff i c e r o f a d e p a r t m e n t ?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . I t . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S R O C K M A N : I t w o u l d m a k e s e n s e C h a i r.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS ROCKMAN:

In the sense of you would not want to take your

colleagues by surprise ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN:

In an Exco meeting to say I am coming with this

p r o j e c t w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e i s f u n d i n g o r t h e r e i s f u n d i n g . Yo u w o u l d

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
consult ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: Before you ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN: Before you go to Exco.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS ROCKMAN:

So I am just not able to comment on whether there

was that kind of engagement but certainly the Exco memorandum that
went in June 2012 is silent on that kind of engagement.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE: So what you are really saying is Exco itself ought to
have inquired in the debate whether that particular memorandum that
committed the Departure of Agriculture and Rural Development to this
h u g e s u m o f m o n e y h a d g o n e v i a t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y ?
MS ROCKMAN: (No audible reply).
ADV GCABASHE:

It ought to have been debated at Exco on the 13th

of June 2012?
MS ROCKMAN: It should have been noticed at the very least that it did
n o t c o n t a i n t h e c o m m e n t s o f P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y o r f o r t h a t m a t t e r I
20

think the comments of the State Law Advisors because a standard Exco
memorandum format provides for legal implications to be set out.
ADV GCABASHE: So what we have is as at the 5th of June 2012 is this
– there is this directive that prima faci was not complied with by the
HOD Agriculture and Rural Development.
PFMA says:

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Tw o , S e c t i o n 3 8 ( 2 ) o f t h e

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
“ Yo u d o n o t c o m m i t a d e p a r t m e n t t o a l i a b i l i t y u n l e s s
you have made provision for it.”
No provision has been made for this particular project at that
point in time. Can I rephrase that?
MS ROCKMAN: (No audible reply).
ADV GCABASHE:

Inadequate provision had been made because 30

million was sitting there under Mohama Mobung but inadequate
p r o v i s i o n h a d b e e n m a d e w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e 11 4 m i l l i o n t h a t
Government was now committed to pay to Estina. Am I correct?
10

MS ROCKMAN: Chair I think you are correct. Accept to say that when
t h e H O D Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e M E C Tr e a s u r y t h e n u l t i m a t e l y s i g n e d o ff t h a t
fulfilled the requirements of the committing the revenue fund.
ADV GCABASHE:

B u t t h e y s i g n e d o ff o n t h e 5 t h o f J u l y 2 0 1 2

agreement because the 5th of June 2012 agreement was found to be
invalid?
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s . T h a t i s c o r r e c t .
ADV GCABASHE: And you are saying that the 30 million that was then
a l l o c a t e d t o t h e E s t i n a P r o j e c t o r t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t w o u l d h a v e
come from the Provincial Equitable Fund?
20

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: I think that is
M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: What you say in - in your statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Well Ms Gcabashe ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE: Hm.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e a t n i n e m i n u t e s / 1 0 m i n u t e s p a s t f o u r. L e t u s
talk about the way forward.
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s C h a i r m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: How – at this stage how much more time do you think
is necessary in terms of hours before we finish?
ADV GCABASHE: Chairman I would like to think ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u f i n i s h w i t h h e r.
ADV GCABASHE:

I would like to think we will be done by lunchtime

t o m o r r o w. I f y o u w i l l p e r m i t u s t o r u n t i l l h a l f p a s t f o u r t o d a y u n l e s s i t
10

is not convenient.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV GCABASHE: The reason I ask Chairman is ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE:

I think I want to squeeze into this area of inquiry

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV GCABASHE:

Just

a

question

whether

the

104

million

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

ADV GCABASHE:

We

know

it

was

not

properly

budgeted

for

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE:

In the first year that it was supposed to be paid

...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE: And all I really want to know without going into the
detail budgeting process ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE: Is whether it was then properly budgeted for and if
so where. If we just have a clear indication as to what. That really is
the essence of this area Chairman.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: We can deal with it in the morning of course.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e c a n - m a y b e w e c a n - w e c a n g o u p t o 1 6 : 3 0
10

or if we take a break now then go up to 16:45.
ADV GCABASHE: My feet are killing me Chairman. So 16:30 I think is
about as long as they are going to keep me standing ...(intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV GCABASHE: But I am also trying to - to cut out some of the other
questions which I know really are ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Not contentious ...(intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV GCABASHE: Or does not cover contentious material.

20

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no. That is fine. It is just that if we continue
I think I – we should just take a short break and I am thinking if you
need 20 minutes – if we take a short break we must compensate for
that but if you say whether we take a break or not let us stop at 16:30
our we will because I understand your situation.
So let – maybe let us take a break now for five minutes and

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
then – but sometimes I say five minutes and five minutes is not
adequate when you are supposed to start.

So shall we say 20 past -

w e r e s u m e a t 2 0 p a s t ? I t i s n o w a b o u t 11 m i n u t e s p a s t .
A D V G C A B A S H E : Ye s . C h a i r m a n t h a t i s i n o r d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: And - and then we can take it from there how far we
go whether half past or 25 to, ja.
ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

We will – Ms Rockman we normally finish at

16:00 but we would like to continue. Is that fine with you?
10

M S R O C K M A N : Ye s .

I t i s f i n e C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think it is fine with your counsel as well.
A D V R O E L O F F Z E : W e h a v e n o d i ff i c u l t y C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

We will adjourn for – and resume at 20

past. We adjourn.
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, l e t ’s c o n t i n u e .

Are you going to prefer half

past or a little ...(intervenes)
20

ADV GCABASHE:

Just a little beyond Chairman it is just a section

that I am trying to concertina.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV GCABASHE:

And just deal with so that tomorrow we just deal

with one or two areas then we finish earlyish.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a l r i g h t .

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE:

Thank you Chairman. Ms Rockman the section I am

dealing with now really speaks to the budgeting process I suppose but
the relevance for this inquiry is back to Section 38(2) of the PFMA
whether in the 2012/2013, 2013/2014, 2014/2015 financial years, I will
j u s t s t o p t h e r e f o r c u r r e n t p u r p o s e s , p r o v i s i o n w a s m a d e f o r t h e Vr e d e
D a i r y p r o j e c t , b e c a u s e t h a t ’s w h a t t h e l a w r e q u i r e s – t h e P F M A
requires.
MS ROCKMAN:

Thank you Chairperson.

Ye s i n 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 f i n a n c i a l

y e a r, I a m a t t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t , p a g e 6 , t h e r e w a s
10

infrastructure enhancement allocation was made available of 41 851
000 ...(intervenes).
ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

I am now on seven.

ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

Paragraph B?

Ye s .

ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:
20

Page 7?

Ye s o f t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y.

ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

Sorry I – which page are you on?

Ye s I E A’s o k a y, I a m w i t h y o u .
Ye s , s o A g r i c u l t u r e d i d r e c e i v e 4 1 . 8 f o r i n f r a s t r u c t u r e

enhancement allocation.
ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .
The overall budget made provision for – the overall

budget was R579 482 000, prioritising amongst others Mohama Mobung
development of an agriculture master plan and refurbishment of
veterinary laboratories.

Then there was the presentation dealing with

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
the infrastructure projects, that was on 7 March and 4 April respectively
2 0 1 2 n o w.
ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .
Agriculture only presented on the 4th of April and that

s u p p l e m e n t a r y, t h e n e x t y e a r i s 5 A w h i c h c o n f i r m e d t h e b u d g e t o f R 1 3
million.
ADV GCABASHE:

Ye s , w h a t I w o u l d l i k e t o u n d e r s t a n d i s w h e r e t h e

11 4 m i l l i o n f o r t h e 2 0 1 2 / 2 0 1 3 f i n a n c i a l y e a r c a m e f r o m , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f
you are able to lead us to those particular numbers.
10

I f i t ’s s o m e t h i n g

you would rather do first thing in the morning again I am quite
comfortable with that, because I think the information is spread
b e t w e e n t h e t w o a ff i d a v i t s .
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s , b e t w e e n t h e t w o a ff i d a v i t s j a , i f w e c a n d e a l w i t h

t h a t i n t h e m o r n i n g i t m i g h t b e e a s i e r.
ADV GCABASHE:

O k a y, l e t ’s d o t h a t . C a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o p l e a s e

t a k e t h e C h a i r m a n b a c k t o y o u r o r i g i n a l a ff i d a v i t , t h a t i s Vo l u m e A , t a k e
the Chairman through what you refer to as the critical decision points
of an annual budget process, and I assume you mean by this that it
should be regular and within the framework of the law these are must
20

d o ’s , a n d I p o i n t y o u h e r e t o p a r a g r a p h s 1 . 8 . 1 t o 1 . 8 . 4 p o s s i b l y o f y o u r
a ff i d a v i t i f I h a v e i t r i g h t .
MS ROCKMAN:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Essentially there is prioritisation

stage which happens between April to September where we determine
priorities to be implemented over a forthcoming financial year and the
MTF that gets drawn from your national priorities, your outcome based

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
priorities, what was in your strategic framework and so forth. Then its
preparation

and

review

of

–

for

the

medium

term

expenditure

f r a m e w o r k , t h a t ’s b e t w e e n A p r i l a n d A u g u s t , N a t i o n a l a n d P r o v i n c i a l
Departments.

J u l y / A u g u s t i t ’s w h a t I ’ v e r e f e r r e d t o p r e v i o u s l y a s t h e

J u l y a n d A u g u s t N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y v i s i t s .

We look at a macroeconomic

f i s c a l f r a m e w o r k , t h e r e ’s a d i v i s i o n o f r e v e n u e b e t w e e n t h e t h r e e
spheres of government.
D u r i n g I t h i n k i t ’s a r o u n d A u g u s t e v e r y y e a r t h a t i s w h e r e
t h e r e ’s a s p e c i a l c a b i n e t m e e t i n g w h i c h c o n s i d e r s t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s
10

o f N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y, i t w o u l d h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h t h e w h o l e p r o c e s s
n o w o f c o n s u l t a t i o n w i t h i n t h e d i ff e r e n t M I N M E C ’s , w i t h i n t h e d i ff e r e n t
i n t e r - g o v e r n m e n t a l f o r u m s , r e l a t i n g t o d i ff e r e n t s e c t o r s .

The Budget

C o u n c i l w o u l d h a v e m e t , t h a t ’s t h e M i n i s t e r o f F i n a n c e w i t h a l l t h e
M E C ’s F i n a n c e , S A L G A i s r e p r e s e n t e d t h e r e , w e a l s o m e e t a s B u d g e t
F o r u m t h e n w i t h t h e M E C ’s o f C O G TA . T h e n t h e r e ’s a s p e c i a l c a b i n e t
m e e t i n g t h a t g e t s c a l l e d , i t ’s e v e r y y e a r, a n d P r e m i e r s a n d M E C ’s
finance are invited to attend a part of that, so cabinet more or less
f i n a l i s e s t h e n P r e m i e r s a n d M E C ’s c o m e i n , t h e M i n i s t e r o f F i n a n c e
does the briefing indicating these are our challenges, this is the
20

d i r e c t i o n w e w a n t t o t a k e , P r e m i e r s , M E C ’s c a n m a k e i n p u t t o s a y b u t
we can’t continue carrying the impact of improvement of conditions of
s e r v i c e , w e h a v e t h i s p r i o r i t y, t h a t p r i o r i t y, b u t f u n d a m e n t a l l y t h a t i s t h e
overall allocations is decided, and in that meeting.
ADV GCABASHE:

And you have to then go back to your Provinces

and work within that framework?

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s . I f y o u t h o u g h t y o u w e r e g o i n g t o g e t R 1 0 0 a n d

you only got 75 it was now your job to go back, start cutting back
projects, informing departments, unfortunate we cannot accommodate
t h i s , t h a t a n d w h a t e v e r s o g o b a c k r e v i e w, m a k e y o u r a d j u s t m e n t s ,
d e f e r p r o j e c t s , s c a l e d o w n p r o j e c t s , l o o k a t d i ff e r e n t p h a s e s , l o o k a t
d i ff e r e n t i m p l e m e n t a t i o n m o d e l s , s e e w h e r e w e c a n g a i n e ff i c i e n c i e s
a n d s o f o r t h a n d s o f o r t h , i t b e c o m e s a v e r y, a t e c h n i c a l p r o c e s s b u t
y o u n e e d p o l i t i c a l b u y - i n f r o m a l l y o u r M E C ’s , n o t o n l y i n t h e F r e e S t a t e
but in every other Province I am sure the Minister of Finance had that
10

battle at National Government level to get everyone on board, to
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h e r e r e a l l y i s a n e n d t o m o n e y.

We don’t have

unlimited sources of funding.
Then we would go through the MTEC hearings.

In our case

N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y i n a l l p r o v i n c e s p a r t i c i p a t e s i n P r o v i n c i a l M T E C
hearings but we would also if there were specific areas of concern like
in our case we would standardly invite the National Department of
Health for Health session, the Department of Basic Education for
education, Human Settlements for human settlements, so you would
invite your National counterparts to get a broader understanding of
20

what our challenges are but also from their perspective what they think
w e s h o u l d b e d o i n g b e t t e r, o r m o r e e ff i c i e n t l y, i t ’s q u i t e a d y n a m i c
process then.
ADV GCABASHE:

Without cutting you short can I ask you to skip

through some of the other material and go down to 1.8.10 which I think
d i r e c t l y r e l a t e s t o t h e P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

ADV GCABASHE:

And that fits in with the oversight issues that we

h a v e b e e n d e a l i n g w i t h t o d a y.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s , C h a i r j u s t t o c o n c l u d e t h a t p r o c e s s o f t h e b u d g e t

would then culminate after PMTEC hearings you go through your
adjustment budget process and that concludes almost a financial year
in our case we still gave room around December for departments,
everyone protects their money and we would bring either a second
adjustment appropriation or a second adjustment appropriation where
10

we cleaned out any possible under spending and reallocate it.

That

c o n c l u d e s t h e n t h e w h o l e b u d g e t p r o c e s s b y a c e r t a i n f i n a n c i a l y e a r.
ADV GCABASHE:

Can you correct me if I’m wrong, the most

important thing about any reallocation or readjustment of the budget is
it can only be done in terms of Section 31 of the PFMA?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

ADV GCABASHE:

Those are the bases on which you can ask for more

or shift monies around etcetera, etcetera.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s t h e P F M A s p e l l s i t o u t q u i t e c l e a r l y, u n f o r e s e e n ,

unavoidable expenditure, emergency funding, money that may have
20

become available to the Province, conditional grant rollovers which
usually happens after the main budget is approved and then your
technicalities, your defraying of expenditure between votes and savings
and you can shift money within your budget in terms of the Act.

It

would not be expected that you introduce an entirely new project in an
adjustment budget, because that undermines the purpose of why you

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
did your annual performance plan.

It is systematic, government likes

systems and processes and we walk smoothly until we reach a stage
where we can properly plan and make budget provision.
ADV GCABASHE:

Yo u k n o w I a m s u r e I m i s u n d e r s t o o d M r T h a b e t h e

but my recollection seems to be that, and I will check this Chairman,
t h a t h e s a i d t h a t t h e E s t i n a Vr e d e p r o j e c t , t h e s h o r t f a l l w a s b r o u g h t t o
one of these adjustment budget processes, but that can’t be right if you
say you can’t bring a new project into an adjustment process, unless I
am just not understanding something very well.
10

MS ROCKMAN:

I t h i n k i t w a s t h a t f i r s t y e a r.

ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s , c o r r e c t . I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e f i r s t y e a r.

It would be the first year where it was under-funded.

ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

Correct.
So it was not an entirely new project but to come up

w i t h t h e d i ff e r e n c e i n t h e f u n d i n g r e q u i r e d t h a t w a s a q u a n t u m t h a t
w o u l d h a v e b e e n c h a l l e n g i n g f o r Tr e a s u r y.
ADV GCABASHE:

Oh so they were quite entitled as Department of

Agriculture and Rural Development to come to the adjustment process
and say we have a project, we had under-budgeted for it and if there is
20

money available can you move something around and make sure that
w e h a v e s u ff i c i e n t f u n d s .
MS ROCKMAN:

That is correct, because at the time the submission

w a s a p p r o v e d i n J u n e 2 0 1 2 , t h e y h a d a m e n d e d t h e i r Ta b l e B 5
infrastructure project list Chairperson so if those – if that project on
that project list is not created on the system you are unable to allocate

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
and transfer funding in respect of those projects, so the problem was
that it was

substantially

underfunded, but they

did

bring

it in

m a r g i n a l l y, f o r t h e R 1 3 m i l l i o n i s s u e .
ADV GCABASHE:

And they were entitled to do so, so his evidence

was actually quite consistent with what you are saying, that they were
able to bring it and they got whatever you were able to give them.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s , h e c o u l d n o t h a v e d o n e i t i f i t w a s n o t i n t h e A P P

or nowhere at all.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

Ja, no that helps clear that particular issue up.

Then I was then just asking you to very briefly look at 1.8.10 on page
12, which I believe is consistent with the oversight issues we’ve been
raising.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s t h a t i s n o w a f i n a n c i a l g o v e r n a n c e p r o c e s s , t h a t

process is led by our Provincial Accountant General, at the time that
was Ms Fourie. I think I have made reference to the key control matrix
reports, the engagements with the Auditor-General, engagements with
the

CFO

Forums,

we

do

reviews

of

the

draft

annual

financial

statements, give feedback to departments to say you need to amend,
adjust, correct, whether they do or don’t has a direct impact on your
20

audit process.
ADV GCABASHE:

I f t h e y i g n o r e y o u r a d v i c e t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g y o u c a n

do about that?
MS ROCKMAN:

They pay the price in audit.

ADV GCABASHE:
MS ROCKMAN:

In audit?

Ye s , i n a u d i t o u t c o m e .

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
ADV GCABASHE:

But of course, anyway we will talk about that

t o m o r r o w, t h e y t h e n e n g a g e a u d i t a n d t e l l a u d i t w h y t h e y b e l i e v e t h e y
h a v e c o m p l i e d a n d a g r e e d t o d i ff e r w i t h a u d i t .
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s .

ADV GCABASHE:

I really am talking about facts that relate to Estina

but we will deal with them in the morning.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ja.

ADV GCABASHE:

S o t h a t i s n o t a p a r t i c u l a r l y e ff e c t i v e s t i c k b e c a u s e

they can literally just argue and say we are right, if you think we are
10

wrong tough cookies.
MS ROCKMAN:

A lot of is technical interpretation and there is a lot of

c o n s t r u c t i v e e n g a g e m e n t s C h a i r p e r s o n w i t h t h e o ff i c e o f t h e A u d i t o r G e n e r a l , Tr e a s u r y a n d t h e D e p a r t m e n t b u t i f a D e p a r t m e n t i s a d a m a n t
that they are right there is little we can do to force an Accounting
O ff i c e r t o r e c l a s s i f y f o r e x a m p l e e x p e n d i t u r e , t h a t w e d o n ’ t h a v e t h a t
c a p a c i t y o r p o w e r.
ADV GCABASHE:

So again by way of example this is precisely why

N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a d t o i n t e r v e n e a n d i s s u e a n e w d i r e c t i v e i n r e l a t i o n
to how to classify goods and services and how to classify transfer
20

payments?
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

ADV GCABASHE:

So it came from the top to be able to regulate what

happened at Province.
MS ROCKMAN:

Ye s , b e c a u s e u l t i m a t e l y w e – t h e u l t i m a t e a u t h o r i t y i s

the National Accounting and General Accounting Standards Board, so if

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
all of us small people here sit and disagree with each other you defer
t o t h e p r o p e r a u t h o r i t y.
ADV GCABASHE:

A b s o l u t e l y.

The last couple are that the asset and

l i a b i l i t y c o m p o n e n t t h a t ’s t h e s a m e o n e t h a t M r M y b u r g h f o r i n s t a n c e
w a s a p a r t o f t h a t w e n t t o d o t h e i n s p e c t i o n – t h e s i t e v i s i t a t Vr e d e ?
MS ROCKMAN:

I am not 100% sure whether at that stage, there was a

s m a l l r e s t r u c t u r i n g i n t e r n a l l y i n Tr e a s u r y.

I think at one stage the

budget component overlapped with asset and liability but later it
separated, so sustainable resource management became our budget
10

division and Mr Myburgh was part of that and assets and liabilities was
about provincial asset and liability management.

They for example

would take care of transversal contracts and so forth, which had
nothing to do with the sustainable resource management unit.
ADV GCABASHE:

But again just to make this a practical example

w h e n w e g e t t o d e a l i n g w i t h t h e a s s e t s o f t h e Vr e d e D a i r y P r o j e c t a s a t
August 2014 when the Free State Development Corporation took over
this is the unit that ought to be involved in discussions around who
those assets belong to, would that be correct?
MS ROCKMAN:
20

No that would be between the relevant asset divisions

o f d e p a r t m e n t s t h a t a r e a ff e c t e d b u t w i t h u s t h e P r o v i n c i a l A c c o u n t a n t
General played a much stronger role.

That is why when the agreement

was finally cancelled Provincial Accountant General was the one
coordinating with Public Works to say this agreement is cancelled,
make sure that you disclose the land of, that was part of this land use
agreement, or the 99 year lease agreement, that was taken up in the

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
Asset Register of Public Works. Our Provincial Accountant General and
the State Law Advisors made sure that that was done. It had little to
do with our asset and liability unit.

We treated it as a matter arising

from Audit and the Audit Intervention Committee and therefore the PGA
and the State Law Advisors was driving that process, together with the
CFO of Public Works, Agriculture had no role to play because Public
Works own all land on behalf of Government, we would not transfer the
land to Agriculture.
ADV GCABASHE:
10

That clarifies the point on land, but if you look at

t r a c t o r s , c a t t l e , b u i l d i n g s a t t h e Vr e d e D a i r y F a r m t h e r e i s a d e b a t e , o r
there was a debate about who those assets belong to, we will deal with
i t i n d e t a i l t o m o r r o w, I j u s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y ’s
role in helping clarify who those assets would actually belong to.
MS ROCKMAN:

O u r a d v i c e a t t h e t i m e i s t h a t – b e c a u s e i t ’s a l m o s t

inventory

i t ’s

items,

not

assets-assets,

that

the

Department

of

Agriculture and Rural Development should bring it into their annual
financial statements as work in progress, until the beneficiaries had
come on board or whatever matters were finalised and it would then be
transferred to the beneficiaries, but the vacuum that then was created
20

i s t h a t t h e r e ’s a l l t h e s e a s s e t s l y i n g a r o u n d a f t e r t h e t e r m i n a t i o n o f t h e
Estina agreement but no one is disclosing it anywhere.

It was not

F T C ’s r e s p o n s i b i l i t y b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e n o t a p p o i n t e d t o t a k e o v e r t h e
assets, they were there to manage the assets, so the feeling and the
a d v i c e f r o m P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r y w a s A g r i c u l t u r e b r i n g t h i s i n t o y o u r
financial statements, at least disclose it as work-in-progress.

Page 186 of 190

For

16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
various reasons they did not accept that advice.
ADV GCABASHE:

W e w i l l d e b a t e t h a t t o m o r r o w, p a r t i c u l a r l y i n t h e

context of implementing agents, what their functions are, who they are,
whose assets they are handling etcetera, etcetera, and I think that will
fit into that particular – if you don’t mind you will go back to giving us
t h i s e x a m p l e , w e w i l l d e a l w i t h i t i n t h a t m a n n e r.
MS ROCKMAN:

O k a y.

ADV GCABASHE:

Chair that takes us to page 15 of this document and

I can safely stop here because we then deal with other issues that
10

c o v e r s t h a t b u d g e t i n g p r o c e s s a d e q u a t e l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , w e w i l l s t o p h e r e . To m o r r o w y o u s a i d y o u t h i n k
we will finish by lunch time. I would like us to finish within one and a
half hours, at the most two hours.
ADV GCABASHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k i t c a n b e d o n e C h a i r.
But not because of anything, just because of my

t h i n k i n g t h a t a l o t o f t h i n g s a r e n o t i n d i s p u t e , o k a y, a l r i g h t .
ADV GCABASHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.
Thank you, we will adjourn now and we will start at

10:00?
20

ADV GCABASHE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a i r.
We will start at 10:00, we will resume at 10:00

t o m o r r o w.
MS ROCKMAN:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S T O 1 7 O C T O B E R 2 0 1 9

10

20

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16 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 181
TRANSCRIBER’S CERTIFICATE FOR COMMISSION OF INQUIRY INTO STATE
CAPTURE
HELD AT
PARKTOWN, JOHANNESBURG

DATE HELD

: 2019-10-16

DAY:

: 181

TRANSCRIBERS

: B KLINE; M NETTA; D STANIFORTH

Audio’s are typed verbatim, as far as audible/possible

Page 189 of 190