C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

1 6 J U LY 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 3 4

20

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
P R O C E E D I N G S O N 1 6 J U LY 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g M r Zu m a .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : G o o d m o r n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s w e a r e .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Just…
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

I n e e d to r e p o r t b a c k C h a ir i n

r e l a ti o n t o d o c u m e n ts . I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t h e r e is n o s u b s t a n t ia l is s u e
in r e l a ti o n t o d o c u m e n t s a n y l o n g e r. I t is a c k n o w l e d g e d t h a t a ll b u t t w o
d o c u m e n ts w e r e r e c e i v e d l a s t y e a r. Th e t w o d o c u m e n t s in q u e s t io n a r e
t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M r M b a lu la .

N o 3 .3 w a s is s u e d i n r e l a ti o n to t h a t

d o c u m e n t a n d t h e r e fo r e i t w a s n o t s e n t la s t y e a r b u t w a s s e n t t h i s y e a r.
I w i ll d e l a y q u e s t io n in g o n t h a t u n ti l t h e e n d in o r d e r to a c c o m m o d a t e
m y l e a r n e d f r i e n d s a n d M r Z u m a i n r e l a t i o n to p o s s ib l e p r e p a r a t io n .
T h e s e c o n d d o c u m e n t is t h e s e c o n d s t a t e m e n t o f M r A g r i z z i
w h ic h w a s a ls o n o t s e n t b y w a y o f a 3 . 3 N o tic e b e c a u s e o f t h e
c o n s i d e r a ti o n t h a t i t f a i le d t o i m p lic a t e th e Pr e s i d e n t c e r t a i n l y d ir e c tl y
20

a n d I d o n o t in t e n d t o a s k a n y q u e s ti o n s a b o u t t h a t s t a te m e n t a s a t
p r e s e n t a d v is e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. I t h i n k M r Z u m a w is h e s to s a y s o m e t h in g .
MR

JACOB

GEDLEYIHLEKISA

ZUMA:

Thank

you,

C h a ir p e r s o n I j u s t th o u g h t I s h o u l d p u t o n r e c o r d s o m e th i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 2 of 107

thank

you.

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : F o r u s to k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s t e r d a y n i g h t b e t w e e n s e v e n
a n d e ig h t m y PA t h a t fr o m th e A N C s i d e w a s p h o n e d b y a p e r s o n s h e
d o e s n o t k n o w a n d t h is p e r s o n s a i d y o u m u s t t e ll Z u m a t h a t w e a r e
g o i n g t o k i ll h i m . W e w il l a ls o k i ll h i s c h i l d r e n a s w e ll a s s o m e p e o p le
a r o u n d h i m . S o s h e i n f o r m e d m e t h is m o r n i n g a n d I a m s u r e C h a ir y o u
w i ll r e c a ll th a t I s a i d a l o t a b o u t h o w m y l if e h a s b e e n a t t e m p t e d . B u t
a ls o my s e n i o r c o u n s e l A d v o c a t e s S ik h a k h a n e t h i s fo ll o w s t h r e a ts t h a t
10

h a d b e e n m a d e t o h i m , v e r y s e r i o u s o n e s a s w i ll a n d t h e – i n th e s h o r t
w h il e a b o u t a w e e k o r s o a g o w e r e c e iv e d t h a t .

I a m p u t ti n g th is o n

r e c o r d b e c a u s e la t e r a t s o m e p o i n t a f t e r t h e q u e s t io n s I w o u l d li k e to
c o m e b a c k to t h i s is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Because I have lost a child and
I now know what happened. So…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

S o t h e th r e a t I c a n s a y i t h a s

b e e n i m p le m e n t e d a lr e a d y.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : B u t I w o u ld l ik e t o c o m e b a c k t o
t h a t . I ju s t t h o u g h t f o r r e c o r d t h is c o m m i s s io n m u s t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

T h a t m y l if e a n d m y c h il d r e n ,

my lawyers are now under threat.

Page 3 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

B e f o r e I s a y a n y th in g I w o n d e r w h e t h e r

M r S ik h a k h a n e w a n ts t o s a y a n y t h i n g , n o th in g .

O k a y, o k a y a lr ig h t .

O r d in a r ily i n r e s p o n s e t o w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t t o l d m e M r Z u m a w i t h
r e g a r d t o o t h e r w i t n e s s e s I w o u l d u r g e th e c o m m i s s io n t o ta k e
n e c e s s a r y s te p s to e n s u r e t h a t a w i t n e s s w h o is g iv in g e v i d e n c e b e fo r e
t h e c o m m i s s io n g e ts a l l th e p r o t e c t io n th a t th e y c a n g iv e .
W h a t I d o n o t k n o w is w h e t h e r b y v i r t u e o f y o u r p o s i ti o n y o u d o
10

n o t a lr e a d y h a v e m a x i m u m p r o te c t i o n . S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e
is a n y t h i n g b e y o n d w h a t y o u – t h e p r o te c ti o n y o u g e t t h a t t h e
c o m m i s s io n c a n a d d . I t h i n k m a y b e y o u r le g a l t e a m c o u l d b e i n to u c h
w i t h t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l t e a m b e c a u s e i f t h e r e i s a n y th i n g th a t t h e
c o m m i s s io n c a n d o i t s h o u ld b e d o n e .
I w a s s i m p ly s a y i n g i t m a y w e ll b e th a t t h e p r o te c ti o n t h a t y o u
h a v e i s f a r g r e a t e r t h a n w h a t e v e r p r o t e c ti o n t h e c o m m i s s io n c o u l d h o p e
t o p r o v i d e . B u t h a v i n g s a i d t h a t I ju s t w a n t t o s a y th is t h a t i t i s t o t a lly
unacceptable for anybody in our society to want to use violence,
in ti m i d a ti o n a n d a ll k in d s o f i ll e g a l m e a n s w h e n t h e y a r e u n h a p p y a b o u t

20

a n y b o d y b e c a u s e o u r le g a l s y s te m is s u c h t h a t p e o p l e c a n g o t o c o u r ts ,
c a n g o to t h e p o l ic e i f t h e y h a v e c o m p l a i n ts a g a in s t o t h e r p e o p le . It is
t o t a lly u n a c c e p t a b l e t h a t a n y th r e a ts s h o u l d b e m a d e t o a n y b o d y a n d
m o r e s o w h e n t h o s e t h r e a t s a r e m a d e t o o r c o n c e r n i n g a p e r s o n w h o is
g iv i n g e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n .
I s a i d s i m il a r t h i n g s s o m e t i m e a g o w h e n c e r t a i n t h r e a ts w e r e

Page 4 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
m a d e a g a in s t a c e r t a i n w i tn e s s w h o g a v e e v id e n c e h e r e .

I say the

s a m e t h i n g t o d a y. I t is u n a c c e p t a b l e .
P e o p l e w h o c o m e to th e c o m m is s i o n t o g i v e e v id e n c e a n d h e l p
t h e c o m m i s s io n to u n d e r s t a n d m a t t e r s t h a t i t i s i n v e s ti g a ti n g s h o u l d n o t
b e t h r e a te n e d , s h o u l d n o t b e i n ti m i d a te d . T h e i r fa m i li e s s h o u l d n o t b e
t h r e a t e n e d o r i n ti m i d a t e d o r h a r m e d i n a n y w a y a n d a ll g o o d p e o p l e in
t h is c o u n tr y m u s t t a k e a s ta n d a g a i n s t th e u s e o f v i o l e n c e a n d
in ti m i d a ti o n .
I am happy that whatever threats have been made have not
10

made Mr Zuma to change his mind about giving evidence.

H e i s s t il l

g o i n g t o c o n t in u e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e th is c o m m i s s i o n b u t i t w i ll
b e i m p o r t a n t t h a t a l l s t e p s b e t a k e n b y r e l e v a n t a u t h o r i ti e s t o m a k e
s u r e t h a t t h e t h r e a ts h e h a s r e p o r te d a r e p r o p e r ly in v e s t i g a t e d a n d th a t
t h e y a r e n o t c a r r ie d o u t .
I a ls o w a n t t o a d d r e s s t h e t h r e a t a g a i n s t h is c o u n s e l . O n e o f
t h e tr a d i ti o n s o f t h e b a r is t h a t A d v o c a te s r e p r e s e n t a n y o n e a n d
e v e r y o n e w h o n e e d s le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t i o n a n d w h e n l a w y e r s r e p r e s e n t
t h e ir c li e n t s th e y a r e ju s t d o i n g th e ir j o b . A n d th e y s h o u l d n o t i n a n y
w a y b e t h r e a t e n e d o r i n ti m i d a t e d o r b e d i s c o u r a g e d f r o m r e p r e s e n t in g
20

whoever

th e y

choose to represent.

Everybody

deserves

to

be

r e p r e s e n t e d b y a l a w y e r w h e n t h e y a r e in p r o c e e d i n g s , in l e g a l
p r o c e e d i n g s a n d i t i s i m p o r t a n t t h a t a s fa r a s p o s s i b l e e v e r y o n e s h o u ld
g e t t h e la w y e r o f t h e ir c h o i c e .
S o a n y t h r e a t s th a t h a v e b e e n m a d e a g a i n s t M r Z u m a ’s
counsel

or

any

lawyer

is

to t a l ly

u n a c c e p t a b le

Page 5 of 107

because

in

t h is

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
c o m m i s s io n I w a n t e v e r y la w y e r t o f e e l fr e e t o c o m e a n d r e p r e s e n t th e ir
c li e n t s .
I w o u l d a s k th a t w h a te v e r a s s is t a n c e t h e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e
c o m m i s s io n c a n p r o v i d e if M r Z u m a ’s c o u n s e l n e e d s a n y a r r a n g e m e n t s
t o b e m a d e fo r h is p r o t e c t io n t h a t e v e r y t h in g b e d o n e t o a s s is t i n t h a t
regard.
I d o n o t w a n t a s i t u a t io n w h e r e a l a w y e r i s s u p p o s e d t o c o m e
a n d r e p r e s e n t s o m e b o d y i n th is c o m m i s s i o n is n o l o n g e r a b le t o c o m e
a n d r e p r e s e n t th e m b e c a u s e o f th r e a ts .
S o I th o u g h t I w o u l d j u s t m a k e th o s e r e m a r k s a n d I h o p e

10

e v e r y t h i n g w il l b e ta k e n c a r e o f .
B u t b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d I h a d m e a n t t o ju s t m a k e o n e r e m a r k
a n d t h a t is t h a t I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e p r o c e e d i n g s y e s t e r d a y w e r e
c h a r a c te r is e d b y r e s p e c t , c o u r t e s y a n d c o o p e r a ti o n f r o m a ll s i d e s .
Fr o m t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l t e a m , th e fo r me r P r e s i d e n t ’s le g a l te a m ,
t h e fo r m e r P r e s id e n t a s w e ll a s e v e r y b o d y w h o w a s a t t e n d in g a n d I
t h o u g h t I m u s t ju s t a c k n o w le d g e t h a t . I n d e e d e v e n w i t h r e g a r d t o t h o s e
w h o w e r e o u t s i d e t h e v e n u e I d i d n o t g e t a n y r e p o r ts o f in c i d e n ts . T h e
r e p o r t s I g o t s e e m e d t o s u g g e s t t h a t t h e r e w a s a h ig h le v e l o f d i s c i p li n e
20

a n d I h o p e t h a t t o d a y a n d i n t h e d a y s t o c o m e th is w e e k e v e r y t h in g c a n
p r o c e e d i n th a t w a y.
T h a n k y o u . Mr Zu m a I t h o u g h t I m u s t a ls o s a y s h o u l d a n e e d
a r i s e a s i t h a p p e n e d y e s te r d a y t o w a s h h a n d s p l e a s e f e e l f r e e t o
in d i c a t e .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a n k y o u .

Page 6 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C H A I R P E R S O N : O th e r w is e t h e n e x t b r e a k w i ll b e q u a r te r p a s t e l e v e n
f o r t e a . Ye s M r Pr e to r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : In r e l a ti o n t o w h a t h a s b e e n s a i d
t h is m o r n in g m a y w e j u s t a d d th a t t h e s e c r e t a r i a t h a s a n i n v e s ti g a tiv e
c a p a c i ty. T h e is s u e s r a i s e d b y f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a r e a m a t te r o f
r e g r e t fir s t ly a n d c o n c e r n s e c o n d l y a n d w e w i ll e n s u r e th a t a s
p r e v i o u s ly w h e r e i t h a s h a p p e n e d b e f o r e i n th is c o m m i s s io n t h e m a t t e r
10

is f u lly in v e s ti g a t e d a n d i n s o fa r a s w e c a n a s s is t i n a n y w a y w h a ts o e v e r
a t l e a s t w i t h a d v i c e a r o u n d o u r e x p e r i e n c e in t h e c o m m i s s io n i n r e g a r d
t o p r o t e c ti o n o r p r o t e c t io n i ts e l f b o t h in r e l a ti o n to M r S ik h a k h a n e a n d
f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a i t w il l b e d o n e a n d w e w ill r e p o r t b a c k t o y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Mr Z u m a w e w il l w i th y o u r l e a v e
s t il l b e d e a li n g th is m o r n i n g f o r a w h i le a t le a s t w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r
M a s e k o a n d y o u r r e s p o n s e o r v e r s io n i n r e s p e c t o f t h e is s u e s t h a t h e
r a i s e s a n d w e w e r e o n p a g e 7 o f th e b u n d l e F PJ G Z 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e s ti ll u s in g E x h ib i t G G [ a ]?

20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . B u n d le A .
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit..
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : G G [ a ]
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit GG[a].
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : E x h ib it G G [ a ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id w e e n te r t h e s e e x h ib it s i n t o t h e r e c o r d y e s t e r d a y ?

Page 7 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m s o r r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id w e e n te r t h e s e e x h ib it s i n t o t h e r e c o r d y e s t e r d a y ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s w e d i d .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t t h e r e is n o h a r m i n r e p e a t i n g
f o r th e s a k e o f e ff ic ie n c y p a r t ic u l a r l y i n r e l a ti o n t o d o c u m e n t a ti o n C h a ir
t h a t w e d e a li n g w i th t w o b u n d le s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e e x te n t t h a t w e m ig h t n o t h a v e d o n e s o .

The

le v e r a r c h f il e w h ic h c o n ta i n s Mr Z u m a ’s s ta t e m e n t is to b e m a r k e d
10

E x h i b i t G G [ a ] a n d th e o th e r le v e r a r c h fi l e w h i c h h a s g o t c e r ta in
a n n e x u r e s in a d d i t io n t o th e a n n e x u r e s t h a t a r e i n E x h i b i t G G [ a ] w i ll b e
marked Exhibit GG[b]. Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s t h e y d o n o t ju s t a m i n o r

p o i n t c o n t a i n a n y s t a te m e n t o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t b u t t h e y d o c o n t a in
s t a te m e n ts r e le v a n t to t h e q u e s t i o n in g t h is w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o a c t u a ll y I th in k w h a t I s a id w a s w r o n g . B e c a u s e i t
d o e s n o t c o n t a i n h is s t a te m e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m g o i n g t o c o r r e c t w h a t I s a id in r e g a r d t o th e l e v e r
20

a r c h fil e th a t w il l m a r k e d Ex h i b it G G [ a ] .

I t d o e s n o t c o n ta in a n y

s t a te m e n t b y M r Z u m a b u t i t c o n t a i n s s t a t e m e n t s o f c e r t a i n w i tn e s s e s
a n d t h e f ir s t s ta t e m e n t o n th e t o p is t h a t o f M r T h e m b a M v e li J a m e s
M a s e k o a n d t h e o t h e r le v e r a r c h f il e E x h i b it G G [ b ] c o n ta in s o t h e r
s t a te m e n ts i n c lu d i n g t h a t o f M s B a r b a r a H o g a n .

That one of Ms

B a r b a r a H o g a n i s o n e o n t o p o n th e o th e r l e v e r a r c h f il e . Th a n k y o u .

Page 8 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

T h a t b y w a y o f i n tr o d u c t i o n M r

Zuma may we go to page 7 and paragraph 32. The next…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r P r e t o r iu s b e fo r e w e d o t h a t. M r Z u m a I
ju s t w a n t t o c l a r if y s o m e th in g t h a t y o u r c o u n s e l m e n t io n e d y e s t e r d a y.
I n t e r m s o f y o u r a b i li ty to r e a d t h e w o r d s i n t h e d o c u m e n ts I t h i n k h e
w a s e x p r e s s i n g a c o n c e r n t h a t t h e y m a y b e t o o s m a ll .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u a b le t o r e a d i t i s fi n e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
10

I t i s v e r y d i ff ic u l t .

I t is to o

s m a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e s m a ll .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I tr ie d to .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Strain my eyes but …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e s m a ll .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ve r y s m a l l.
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe – maybe you might as far as you can Mr

P r e t o r i u s r e a d t o h i m w h a t n e e d s t o – w h a t is n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u r
q u e s t io n a n d i f t h a t is n o t e n o u g h fo r h i m t o g e t th e c o n te x t w e c a n
20

take it from there.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

I n th e m e a n w h i l e I w i ll tr y a n d

a r r a n g e fr o m t h e s e c r e t a r i a t f o r la r g e c o p i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B i g g e r – j a o k a y, a lr i g h t, t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B y w a y o f b a c k g r o u n d to t h e

n e x t s e c t io n o f t h e e v i d e n c e o f Mr M a s e k o M r Z u m a .

Page 9 of 107

Mr Maseko

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
t e s ti fi e d th a t a r o u n d th e e n d o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 h e w a s d r iv i n g to t h e
N o r t h W e s t o n a p e r s o n a l j o u r n e y a n d h e r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a ll fr o m a n
u n k n o w n p e r s o n w h o s a i d h e w o r k e d f o r t h e G u p t a M e d ia C o m p a n y a n d
t h a t g e n t le m a n r e q u e s te d a m e e ti n g w i th M a s e k o t h e fo ll o w i n g M o n d a y
in o r d e r to d is c u s s g o v e r n m e n t a d v e r t is in g a n d t h e s o o n to b e l a u n c h e d
N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r. B y w a y o f i n tr o d u c t i o n i t s e e m s t h a t w h a t f o ll o w s
w a s a s e c o n d a t te m p t t o p e r s u a d e M r M a s e k o t o d i v e r t o r c a u s e
b u s i n e s s to b e g iv e n t o t h e N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r b y w a y o f g o v e r n m e n t
a d v e r t is in g .
10

B u t t h a t b y w a y o f b a c k g r o u n d – w a s a n y r e p o r t a g a in s t

t h e b a c k g r o u n d t h a t t h e G u p t a ’s w o u l d h a v e k n o w n t h a t y o u h a d a n
in t e r e s t i n th is p r o j e c t .

In f a c t i t w a s in i ti a te d b y y o u r s e l f a s I

u n d e r s t a n d fr o m w h a t y o u s a i d y e s te r d a y. T h e f in a n c in g o f t h e p r o j e c t
c le a r ly w o u l d h a v e b e e n a c o n c e r n t o th e G u p t a ’s . D i d t h e y r e p o r t t o
y o u a n y c o n c e r n s a b o u t th e ir in a b i li ty to p e r s u a d e M r M a s e k o t o a s s is t
them?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o h e n e v e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

R i g h t . Th e n i f w e l o o k f u r th e r

d o w n o n p a g e 7 in s h o r t w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s th a t M r M a s e k o p u t t h e
c a l l e r o ff . H e s a i d l o o k w e w ill d is c u s s i t o n M o n d a y. B u t t h e n a n h o u r
20

la t e r a n d I a m a t p a r a g r a p h 3 5 o n p a g e 7 t h e p h o n e r a n g a g a in t h a t is
M r M a s e k o ’s p h o n e t h i s t i m e i t w a s M r A j a y G u p t a .

He sounded very

a g i ta t e d a n d h e s ta r t e d t h e c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h a n a g g r e s s iv e to n e . H e
s a i d a n d I a m n o w o v e r th e p a g e o n p a g e 8 . H e s a i d h i s p e o p l e t o l d
h i m t h a t I w a s b e in g d i ff ic u l t .

I t o l d h i m w h a t h a p p e n e d i n th e

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th h i s s ta ff m e m b e r. P a r a g r a p h 3 7 r e a d s :

Page 10 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
“ H e t h a t is Mr A ja y G u p ta t h e n r e s p o n d e d b y s a y i n g
s o m e t h i n g t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t h e w il l n o t t o l e r a te a n y
n o n s e n s e a n d t h a t I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d w h a t w a s
going on.

H e s a i d t h e m e e ti n g m u s t h a p p e n o n

Monday morning.”
I t s e e m s t h a t fr o m w h a t M r M a s e k o s a i d th e r e s p o n s e w a s e q u a l ly
f o r c e fu l . M r M a s e k o s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 3 8 .
“ I w a s e x tr e m e ly o ff e n d e d b y w h a t w a s g o in g o n a n d
t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h h e s p o k e t o m e . I t h o ld h i m t h a t
10

h e h a d n o r ig h t to g i v e m e i n s tr u c t io n s a s h e w a s n o t
m y e m p l o y e r.

H i s r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t t h e m e e ti n g

m u s t n o l o n g e r ta k e p l a c e o n t h e M o n d a y m o r n in g a s
t h e y h a d i n i t ia ll y d e m a n d e d b u t s h o u ld h a p p e n th e
f o ll o w i n g m o r n i n g w h ic h w a s a S a t u r d a y.

I to l d h i m

h o w r id ic u l o u s h is d e m a n d w a s a n d t h a t I w a s o u t o f
t o w n fo r t h e w e e k e n d . H e i n s i s te d t h a t t h e m e e t in g
w i ll t a k e p la c e o n t h e S a t u r d a y m o r n i n g . ”
T h e e v i d e n c e o f M r M a s e k o c o n ti n u e s t h e n in p a r a g r a p h 3 9 .
Maseko says:
20

“ I t o l d h i m i n n o u n c e r t a i n t e ms t h a t I w i ll n o t b e
s p o k e n t o i n t h a t m a n n e r n o r d ic ta t e d a s h e w a s
a tt e m p t in g to d o . I n t h e p r o c e s s a n d r e f le c t iv e o f m y
a n n o y a n c e a t a n a t te m p t to i m p r o p e r ly b u l ly m e a s a
g o v e r n m e n t o ffic ia l I a ls o u s e d a n e x p l e tiv e . ”
A n d t h e n M r M a s e k o r e p o r t s a f u r th e r s t a te m e n t b y M r G u p t a to h i m .

Page 11 of 107

Mr

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
“At

th is

point

he

told

me

th a t

I

was

being

u n c o o p e r a t iv e a n d t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o s p e a k t o m y
seniors in government who would sort me out and
r e p l a c e m e w i th p e o p l e w h o w o u l d c o o p e r a t e w i th
h i m . I c a n n o t r e c a ll w h e t h e r h e o r I d r o p p e d t h e c a l l .
T h e c a ll e n d e d a b r u p t ly. ”
He says in paragraph 42.
“ O n my r e tu r n to J o h a n n e b u r g t h e fo ll o w i n g w e e k , I
briefed Minister Chabane about the developments.”
10

A t t h a t s t a g e le t u s r e m in d th e C h a ir w h o w a s Mr – M in is t e r C h a b a n e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h o w a s M i n i s te r C h a b a n e a t

that stage, what post did he hold?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : H e w a s a M i n i s t e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n y o u …
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I n t h e P r e s i d e n c y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e P r e s i d e n c y
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d Mr M a s e k o s a y s h e r e p o r t e d
20

it to h i m .

N o w M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w o u ld h a v e k n o w n s u r e ly th a t y o u

w e r e in f a v o u r o f th e p r o g r e s s o f th e N e w A g e p r o je c t, w o u l d h e ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I h a d n o t d is c u s s e d t h a t w i t h
t h e M in is t e r s .

A s I s a y t h e – I d i s c u s s e d t h is w i t h th e S e c r e ta r y

G e n e r a l a n d D e p u ty. I t w a s n o t a m a t te r o f g o v e r n m e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t .

Page 12 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : H e m i g h t h a v e k n o w n h e m ig h t
n o t h a v e k n o w n I d o n o t k n o w. I h a d n e v e r – I h a d n o t d is c u s s e d w i t h
Chabane.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r

e v i d e n c e t h e n M r Z u m a y o u s a y t h a t y o u s a w a n e e d f o r fa ir a n d
o b j e c ti v e a n d c o m p r e h e n s iv e p u b lic i ty a n d n e w s p a p e r r e p o r t in g a n d a s
p a r t o f t h a t y o u d i s c u s s e d w i th t h e G u p t a ’s a t l e a s t th e N e w A g e p r o j e c t
f o r n o w t h e A N N 7 p r o j e c t c a m e la t e r a n d t h a t y o u d i d n o t d i s c u s s t h a t
w i t h t h e M in is t e r i n th e Pr e s i d e n c y ?
10

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I h a d n o t d is c u s s e d t h a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W o u l d i t n o t b e s o m e t h i n g th a t

y o u w o u l d d is c u s s a n d – o r d i n a r i ly ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W o u l d i t n o t b e s o m e t h i n g th a t

o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d s u c h a t h i n g to b e d is c u s s e d w i t h th e M i n i s te r
a n d th e P r e s i d e n c y i f i t w a s a m a t t e r th a t c o n c e r n e d y o u a s P r e s i d e n t ?
MR JACOB GEDLE YIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o t h is w a s n o t g o v e r n m e n t

thing. This was done by business people out there.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W a s i t a p r iv a t e a r r a n g e m e n t n o t
20

government?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No, no I never said government
was involved here.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I th i n k I m a d e t h e p o i n t v e r y

c le a r I i n f o r m e d t h e S e c r e ta r y G e n e r a l a n d D e p u ty S e c r e t a r y G e n e r a l

Page 13 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
because they are ANC.

Th is h a d n o th i n g t o d o w i t h t h e g o v e r n m e n t

in s o f a r a s t h a t d is c u s s i o n s w e r e c o n c e r n e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A l r ig h t s o if I m a y u n d e r s t a n d

t h e n y o u r i n t e r a c ti o n s w i th th e G u p t a f a m il y c e r t a in ly i n s o fa r a s th e
N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r a n d it s e s ta b lis h m e n t w e r e c o n c e r n e d w a s d o n e i n
a c a p a c i ty o t h e r th a n a g o v e r n m e n t c a p a c i ty n o t a s P r e s i d e n t ?
MR JACOB GEDLE YIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I cannot – I am not sure

whether I hear…
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

W e ll n o t a s h e a d o f t h e

e x e c u tiv e y o u s a y i t h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h g o v e r n m e n t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No why I am saying so because
y o u a r e a s k in g a q u e s ti o n a s i f I s h o u l d h a v e d is c u s s e d i t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W i t h t h e M in is t e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o s o I a m s a y i n g th e M i n is t e r
w o u ld – th a t d id n o t f e a t u r e i n m y a c t iv it i e s a s I s a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

20

Because this was not a

government project.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s t h a t i s h o w I u n d e r s t a n d i t.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o h o w w o u l d y o u c a t e g o r is e t h e
p r o j e c t th e n ? P r iv a t e , p a r ty p o li t ic a l ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o t h is – th is w a s a p r i v a t e .

Page 14 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A p r iv a t e ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : P r o je c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

By a business – by business

people.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k w h a t h e m a y b e s e e k i n g M r Z u m a is t o

e s t a b li s h w h e th e r f r o m y o u r s i d e w h e n y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g t o th e
G u p t a ’s a b o u t th is p r o je c t y o u w e r e s p e a k in g t o t h e m j u s t a s a p r iv a t e
10

c i tiz e n o r a s P r e s i d e n t o f t h e A N C b e c a u s e I t h i n k i t i s c le a r fr o m w h a t
y o u h a v e s a i d y o u w e r e n o t s p e a k i n g a s P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Yo u m e a n w h e n I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u s p o k e t o th e G u p t a ’s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t t h e N e w A g e Pr o je c t .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Oh yes, yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a I t h i n k w h a t M r P r e t o r i u s is tr y in g t o e s t a b l is h is

w h e t h e r fr o m y o u r s i d e y o u w e r e s p e a k i n g t o t h e G u p ta ’s a b o u t t h is
p r o j e c t i n y o u r p e r s o n a l c a p a c i ty.
20

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i n y o u r c a p a c it y a s P r e s id e n t o f t h e A N C b e c a u s e
you have made it clear it was not in your capacity as President of the
c o u n tr y. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d i s c u s s e d w i t h th e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 15 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : F r o m a p e r s o n a l c a p a c i t y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m a p e r s o n a l c a p a c it y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e m a y c o m e b a c k to th a t is s u e
in r e la t io n t o a n o th e r m a t t e r a r i s i n g i n th e s t a te m e n t o f Mr M a s e k o b u t
f o r t h e m o m e n t w h a t is a p p a r e n t f r o m t h e s t a t e m e n t o f M r M a s e k o ju s t
r e a d to y o u is t h a t t h e G u p t a ’s w e r e t o p u t i t m il d l y q u i te f o r c e fu l in
t h e ir r e q u e s t o r d e m a n d t o M r M a s e k o . T h a t s o m u c h is a p p a r e n t . D o
10

you agree?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W e ll i f y o u r e a d w h a t is h e r e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t h in k t h a t is w h a t i t s h o w s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S
Mr Ajay Gupta

at

least

was

SC:
very

And
c o n fi d e n t

it

seems
of

too

support

that
within

G o v e r n m e n t . W h a t h e s a y s is – a n d t h is i s w h a t M r M a s e k o ’s v e r s io n
is :
“ A t t h i s p o in t h e M r A ja y G u p t a t o ld m e I w a s b e in g
u n c o o p e r a t iv e a n d t h a t h e w a s g o in g t o s p e a k t o m y
20

s e n i o r s in G o v e r n m e n t w h o w o u l d s o r t m e o u t . H e
a p p e a r e d to b e c o n f i d e n t t h a t h e h a d t h e s u p p o r t o f
h is s e n io r s i n G o v e r n m e n t w h o w o u ld “ s o r t m e o u t ”
a n d r e p la c e m e w i th p e o p l e w h o w o u ld c o o p e r a t e
with him.”
T h a t m u c h is a ls o a p p a r e n t fr o m w h a t M r M a s e k o s a id . N o w

Page 16 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
w o u ld - a s f a r a s y o u a r e a w a r e in s o f a r a s t h e p r o j e c t is c o n c e r n e d d o
y o u k n o w w h e t h e r Mr G u p t a w a s j u s t if ie d i n s a y in g t h a t h e h a d
Government support?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I am – I am not sure. Whether I
s h o u l d r e a l ly i n te r p r e t p e o p le s m o o d a n d h o w th e y – t h e y a d d r e s s o n e
a n o t h e r b e c a u s e i t i s h e r e fr o m t h e – f r o m M r M a s e k o w h o d is c u s s e s
with Gupta.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
10

N o h o w d o I in t e r p r e t t h e m ?

I

t h i n k th e tr e n d h a s b e e n th a t w e a c t u a ll y s a y i n g I s h o u ld b e s a y i n g
s o m e t h i n g o n i n te r a c t i o n s t h a t I w a s n o t p a r t o f .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t a n d y o u –
y o u m a k e a g o o d p o in t .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

M y q u e s ti o n t h o u g h h a d a

d i ff e r e n t o b j e c t a n d l e t m e …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Rephrase

it.

The

factual

q u e s t io n t h a t I a s k is d id M r G u p t a e n j o y - a s h e a p p e a r s t o h a v e s a id
20

h e d i d - G o v e r n m e n t s u p p o r t in t h e N e w A g e Pr o j e c t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o n o t k n o w r e a ll y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Because I – I have never

p a r t ic ip a t e d i n a d i s c u s s io n t h a t d is c u s s e d t h a t m u c h w i t h G o v e r n m e n t
people.

Page 17 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e o n e c o u ld – c o u ld p u t i t t h is w a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m w h a t h a s b e e n – fr o m w h a t M r M a s e k o h a s s a i d
in h i s s t a t e m e n t i f w h a t h e s a y s is tr u e i t a p p e a r s th a t M r A j a y G u p t a
b e li e v e d t h a t if M r M a s e k o d id n o t c o o p e r a t e h e c o u l d g e t Mr –
M r M a s e k o ’s s e n i o r s t o “ s o r t h i m o u t ” t o u s e t h a t w o r d .

M a y b e le t u s

lo o k a t – l e t u s s t a r t w i t h w h o M r M a s e k o ’s s e n io r s w o u ld h a v e b e e n i n
– in Government.

W o u ld i t – w o u l d i t h a v e b e e n t h e M i n is t e r in t h e

P r e s i d e n c y ? Is – is – w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t ?
10

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a , d e f in i te ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d b e c o r r e c t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a b o v e t h e M i n i s t e r it w o u l d b e t h e P r e s i d e n t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I s th e r e a n y th in g y o u k n o w w h ic h w o u l d h a v e

m a d e Mr A j a y G u p t a i f w h a t M r M a s e k o i s s a y i n g is t r u e w h ic h w o u ld
h a v e m a d e h i m b e l ie v e t h a t i f M r M a s e k o d i d n o t d o w h a t h e w a n t e d
h i m t o d o h e c o u l d t a lk t o M r M a s e k o ’s s e n i o r s to “ s o r t h i m o u t ” ?

Is

t h e r e a n y t h i n g y o u k n o w o n th e b a s is o f w h ic h Mr A ja y G u p t a c o u l d
20

r e a l ly s a y th a t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . H e g o e s o n M r Z u m a o n
page 9 paragraph 43 to say:
“ T h i s m a t t e r w a s o f g r e a t c o n c e r n t o m e e s p e c i a l ly
w h e n I s t a r te d r e c e i v i n g c o m p l a i n ts fr o m H e a d s o f

Page 18 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C o m m u n i c a t io n fr o m o th e r d e p a r t m e n ts c o m p la i n i n g
t h a t t h e y w e r e b e in g h a r a s s e d b y p e o p l e fr o m t h e
N e w A g e N e w s p a p e r w h o w e r e d e m a n d i n g e i th e r
m e e ti n g s o r a d v e r ti s i n g b u d g e ts . ”
Do

you

know

anything

about

c o m p l a in ts

of

Head

of

C o m m u n i c a t io n fr o m o th e r d e p a r t m e n ts c o m p l a in in g o f h a r a s s m e n t a t
the hands of the New Age Newspaper?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I d i d n o t. D i d n o t g e t t h a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t b u t a g a in i t i s e v i d e n t t h a t
10

t h e N e w A g e P r o je c t u n d e r t h e G u p t a s i f M r M a s e k o ’s e v id e n c e i s
a c c e p te d w a s b e i n g v i g o r o u s ly p u r s u e d .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Huh-uh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D id t h e y e v e r r e p o r t b a c k to y o u
o n th is ? D i d y o u h a v e m e e ti n g s w i th th e G u p t a s a b o u t th e p r o g r e s s o f
t h e N e w A g e Pr o j e c t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

W e l l fr o m t i m e t o t i m e t h e y

briefed me.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t a n d w o u l d t h e y h a v e …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B r i e fe d y o u a b o u t h o w t h e

fi n a n c i n g o f th e p r o j e c t w a s t o b e a c h i e v e d ? I t w o u ld s e e m
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A m a y b e r e a s o n a b l e a s s u m p ti o n
to make.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.

Page 19 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t – w h a t d id t h e y b r ie f y o u

on?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

T h e y w e r e j u s t b r i e fi n g m e o n

t h e p r o g r e s s th e y w e r e m a k i n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

O h a n d w h a t ty p e o f p r o g r e s s

w o u ld t h a t h a v e b e e n t h e n ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : E s t a b li s h i n g t h a t b u s i n e s s – t h e
10

n e w s p a p e r a s it w e r e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t y o u s a y n o t th e fi n a n c i n g ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o n o t t h e fi n a n c i n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . T h e n e x t s e c ti o n o f th e
e v i d e n c e t h a t w e w o u ld li k e y o u r c o m m e n t o n M r Z u m a is u n d e r th e
heading:
“ M y E x i t fr o m t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

Maybe

before

that

if

what

Mr M a s e k o

says

M r A j a y G u p t a s a i d to h i m …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N a m e ly I w il l s p e a k t o y o u r s e n i o r s t o “ s o r t y o u o u t ”
a n d b e a r in g i n m in d t h a t y o u h a v e i n d i c a t e d t h a t M r M a s e k o ’s s e n io r s
w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e M i n is t e r i n th e P r e s i d e n c y a n d a b o v e t h e M i n i s te r
it w o u ld b e t h e Pr e s id e n t?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

I f w h a t M r M a s e k o s a y s M r A j a y s a i d is tr u e w o u l d

Page 20 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
y o u a g r e e t h a t t h e n M r A j a y G u p t a w o u ld h a v e b e e n a b u s in g w h a t e v e r
r e l a ti o n s h i p o r f r i e n d s h ip h e m a y h a v e h a d w i th M r M a s e k o ’s s e n i o r s in
o r d e r t o tr y a n d g e t G o v e r n m e n t w o r k ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

W e l l I w o u l d n o t b e a b l e to

a n s w e r th e q u e s t io n c o r r e c tl y b e c a u s e I r e a ll y d o n o t k n o w w h a t m a d e
M r G u p t a – Mr A j a y t o s a y th a t . T h e s e n io r th a t o n o p e r a ti o n a l m a t t e r s
t h e i m m e d i a t e s e n io r a n d w h o d e a ls w i t h a ll o f th e s e th i n g s w o u l d b e
t h e M i n is t e r n o t t h e P r e s i d e n t . I t w o u l d b e t h e M i n i s te r. T h a t is w h y
M a s e k o w o u l d g o t o th e M i n is t e r a n d r e p o r t th e k i n d o f tr e a t m e n t th a t
10

h e h a s g o t fr o m a n in d iv i d u a l a n d i t e n d s t h e r e .
I a m j u s t m a k i n g a p o i n t t h a t y o u c a n n o t h a v e t h e Pr e s id e n t
p a r t ic ip a ti n g i n t h o s e k in d s o f d is c u s s i o n s in a l l d e p a r t m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

But are you not able to say we do not know

M r A j a y G u p t a ’s v e r s i o n . I t m i g h t b e d i ff e r e n t fr o m M r M a s e k o ’s v e r s io n
…
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t is w h y I s a y i f w h a t M r M a s e k o is tr u e .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u n o t a b le t o s a y i f w h a t M r M a s e k o s a y s w a s
20

s a i d b y M r A j a y G u p t a i s tr u e th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i m p r o p e r ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to say that?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I a m a b le t o s a y s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly.

Page 21 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d id s a y M r Zu m a t h a t t h e s e
s o r ts o f m a t te r s w o u l d n o t b e d is c u s s e d w it h a Pr e s id e n t b u t y o u h a v e
a ls o s a id t h e m a t t e r s w e r e in d e e d d is c u s s e d p r iv a t e ly ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o m e m a t t e r s w e r e d is c u s s e d

privately?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o – s o …
10

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I said so.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e G u p ta s m ig h t h a v e f e lt fr e e
t o d is c u s s t h e s e is s u e s w i th y o u i n y o u r p r i v a t e c a p a c it y a s y o u h a v e
a lr e a d y s a i d ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I f t h e y d i s c u s s a n y t h in g w i th –

w e d i d n o t d i s c u s s t h e o p e r a ti o n a l th i n g s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 4 7 i f I m a y r e a d i t t o
M r Zu m a s a y s :
“ To w a r d s th e e n d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 11 , I r e c e i v e d a c a ll
fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e a s k i n g m e t o m e e t h i m a t
20

h is o ffi c e u r g e n tl y.
f o ll o w i n g m o r n i n g .

I m e t h i m a t h is o ffic e th e
A t t h e m e e ti n g , h e a d v is e d m e

t h a t h e h a d b e e n i n s tr u c t e d b y t h e Pr e s id e n t to
r e d e p l o y m e o r t e r m in a t e my c o n tr a c t h e n c e fo r t h . ”
I f I m a y a s k w e k n o w t h a t a t a r o u n d t h is t i m e M r M a s e k o d id
a c t u a ll y l e a v e c e r t a i n ly t h e p o s t th a t h e h e l d a t t h e ti m e a s C E O o f

Page 22 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
GCIS. We know that as a fact. Is that agreed?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s . I t h i n k h e le f t a r o u n d t h a t
ti m e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d I d o n o t w a n t t o g o i n to t h e
d e t a i l o f th e la w w it h y o u b u t a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t i f M r M a s e k o w a s
tr a n s fe r r e d a s h e w a s t o a n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t th e l a w s a y s t h a t w o u l d b e
y o u r d e c is io n . D o I u n d e r s ta n d c o r r e c tl y ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t w o u ld – y e s . I t w o u l d b e t h e
d e c is i o n t a k e n i n th e m a in b e tw e e n - w h a t – w h a t w o u l d h a v e
10

h a p p e n e d . T h e M i n is te r w o u l d h a v e b r i e f e d t h e Pr e s i d e n t b e c a u s e t h e
D G s a r e a c tu a lly d e p l o y e d b y t h e C a b i n e t – b y th e C a b in e t . T h a t t y p e
o f r e p o r t w i ll t h e r e f o r e b e g iv e n to o r r e fl e c t e d in t h e G o v e r n m e n t b u t
M i n is t e r s w o u l d h a v e d is c u s s e d t h a t w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th e y c o m e b e c a u s e o f w h a te v e r
t o s a y M r Pr e s i d e n t t h i s is w h a t I a m d o i n g a n d i f t h e P r e s i d e n t th i n k s
t h a t th is i s u n fa ir w h a t e v e r w il l s a y b u t w h y. T h e y w il l h a v e t o e x p l a i n .
I f t h e e x p l a n a ti o n – a t t i m e s t h e e x p l a n a ti o n m ig h t n o t e v e n b e
s a ti s f y i n g b u t i f th e M in is t e r s a y s lo o k I j u s t c a n n o t w o r k w i t h th is D G .

20

I t h a p p e n s a ll t h e ti m e . Yo u c a n n o t f o r c e th e M in is t e r. S o I
w i ll s a y o k a y p r o c e e d a n d th e n f o ll o w t h e p r o c e s s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o i n t h e o r d in a r y c o u r s e a s

r e q u ir e d b y l a w y o u w o u l d h a v e p a r tic i p a t e d i n a n y d e c is io n r e g a r d i n g a
D G i n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f t h e Pr e s i d e n c y ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: In the?

Page 23 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e P r e s i d e n c y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Just repeat.

I do not know

w h e t h e r I a m g e t t in g y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n I th in k .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

We

y e s t e r d a y b u t i t i s w e l l to c l a r i fy M r Zu m a .

dealt

with

this

matter

As the Head of GCIS

M r M a s e k o w o r k e d i n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f th e Pr e s id e n c y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Huh-uh.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o r r e c t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h ic h f e l l u n d e r y o u r s e l f a t t h e

ti m e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Huh-uh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d t h e M i n is t e r t h e n w a s

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Huh-uh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o in a n y d e c is i o n a b o u t t h e

t e r m in a ti o n o f s e r v i c e o f Mr M a s e k o o r r e l a ti o n t o h i s tr a n s fe r y o u
20

w o u ld h a v e b e e n c o n s u l t e d ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : D e f in it e ly.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o t j u s t b y t h e M in is t e r i n th e

P r e s i d e n c y o n ly - a ll M i n i s t e r s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t, o k a y.

Page 24 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A l l M i n is t e r s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

O k a y.

Well

Mr M a s e k o ’s

e v i d e n c e is t h a t M r C h a b a n e to l d h i m t h a t h e h a d b e e n in s t r u c t e d b y
t h e Pr e s i d e n t t o r e d e p l o y m e o r te r m in a te m y c o n tr a c t h e n c e f o r t h .
W h a t d o y o u s a y a b o u t th a t s ta t e m e n t? I f y o u c a n h e l p u s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o . I n e v e r – I n e v e r i n s tr u c te d
the Minister to do so.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D i d y o u d is c u s s t h e is s u e w it h

the Minister?
10

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o t h e M i n i s t e r d is c u s s e d th e

f a c t t h a t h e w o u l d l ik e t o tr a n s fe r M r M a s e k o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D id h e s a y w h y ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W e ll I t h i n k th e r e w a s a n is s u e
b e t w e e n th e t w o o f th e m .
r e m e m b e r t h e d e ta il s .

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d e ta ils .

I cannot

L ik e a ll M i n is te r s h e w o u l d c o m e f o r u s to b e

a b l e t o e i t h e r a g r e e s o th a t a n a c t io n is t a k e n n o t to d is c u s s - a n d i f a t
a l l t h e r e w e r e is s u e s w h i c h w e r e n e c e s s a r y t o b e s a i d b e c a u s e i t i s a
b i g d e c is i o n h e w i ll i n d i c a t e t h a t .

Th a t is b e c a u s e o f t h is a n d t h a t

because …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l , h u h - u h . J u s t fi n is h b e f o r e I s a y s o m e t h in g .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja, because either we – we can
n o lo n g e r w o r k t o g e t h e r o r b e c a u s e w e d o n o t a g r e e o r b e c a u s e I t h i n k
I d o n o t n e e d h i m a n y m o r e w h a t e v e r. T h e d is c u s s i o n w o u ld – b e c a u s e
h e c a n n o t ta k e a d e c is io n t o c h a n g e t h e D G w i t h o u t – b e c a u s e th a t is
n o t h i s d e c is i o n .

Page 25 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I t h i n k w e – t h e – t h e t i m e t h a t w e a r e t a lk i n g

a b o u t w h e n M r M a s e k o w a s m o v e d fr o m t h e p o s i ti o n o f C E O o f G C I S …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e w a s m o v e d t o b e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l o f t h e

D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is t r a ti o n …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s a r o u n d 2 0 11 e n d o f J a n u a r y o r t h e r e a b o u t .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

H a v e y o u g o t a r e c o ll e c t io n o f h o w t h a t h a p p e n e d ?

H a v e y o u g o t - h a v e y o u g o t th e p ic t u r e o f h o w t h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a t s p e c i fic … ?
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t s p e c if ic i n c id e n t o f h is w h e t h e r o n e c a n c a ll i t

r e m o v a l fr o m …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

G C I S t o P u b lic S e r v i c e a n d A d m i n i s tr a t i o n o r a

tr a n s fe r f r o m G C I S t o P u b l ic S e r v i c e A d m i n is tr a ti o n – P u b l ic S e r v i c e
a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n .

D o y o u – d o y o u r e c a ll h o w t h a t o c c u r r e d ?

O b v io u s ly h a v in g r e a d M r M a s e k o ’s s t a t e m e n t a n d u n d e r s t a n d i n g w h a t
h is v e r s i o n is .
20

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W e ll I d o n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly
b u t I k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s a b i t o f s h i f ti n g o f th e D G s a r o u n d th a t ti m e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

And

h a n d l e s t h a t is P u b li c A d m i n is tr a t i o n .

Page 26 of 107

the

department

that

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

W h o w il l t h e n d is c u s s w i t h t h e

M i n is t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: On whatever reasons …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: An d then once that happens and
t h a t w o u ld t h e n b e r e p o r t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Once it becomes a decision to

t h e C a b in e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I

m ig h t

not remember

th e

d e t a i ls w h y t h is h a p p e n e d b u t I k n o w t h e r e w a s a m o v e m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th a t w a s d o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

But I cannot remember the

e x a c tl y w h a t w a s t h e c o u r s e . A t ti m e s t h e c h a n g e s c o m e b e c a u s e o th e r
20

– a D G c o u l d p e r fo r m b a d ly i n o n e p l a c e a n d t h e r e fo r e h e m u s t g o h e l p
t h e r e a n d a n o t h e r o n e i s r e p l a c e d b u t I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y w h a t o n th is p a r t ic u l a r D G - w h a t w a s t h e p r o b l e m b u t t h a t m a t te r w o u ld
h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s e d m o r e i n s o m e d e ta il s a t a l e v e l o f t h e M i n is t e r a n d
t h e M i n i s t e r o f P u b li c – P u b l ic A d m in is tr a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P u b li c S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is t r a t io n .

Page 27 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O n c e th e y h a v e a g r e e d t h e y w il l
t h e n c o m e w it h a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .

T h e y g e n e r a ll y c o m e w i t h a

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n u n l e s s i f t h e r e is a p r o b l e m .

For example if they

c a n n o t w o r k t o g e t h e r o r i f th e y t h in k t h is p a r tic u la r D G w o u ld p e r f o r m
b e t t e r t h e r e a n d o n c e t h e y r e p o r t a n d s a y w e h a v e d is c u s s e d t h e
m a t t e r. W e h a v e a g r e e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A n d t h e n t h e C a b i n e t w i ll – w e
t a k e a d e c is i o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

H m . W h e n y o u r e a d Mr M a s e k o ’s s t a t e m e n t d i d y o u

s e e w h a t h e s a y s h a p p e n e d w i th r e g a r d t o th a t – w i t h r e g a r d t o h i s
r e m o v a l? H e s a y s h e w a s t o ld b y M i n is t e r C h a b a n e …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t y o u h a d c a l l e d f r o m o u ts i d e o f t h e c o u n tr y

b e c a u s e y o u w e r e o u ts id e o f t h e c o u n tr y a t th e ti m e .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

H e s a y s h e w a s to l d b y M i n is t e r C h a b a n e t h a t y o u

h a d c a l le d a n d y o u h a d s a i d t h a t h e m u s t b e r e d e p l o y e d .

Th a t is

M r M a s e k o o r h is s e r v ic e s m u s t b e t e r m i n a te d a n d h e s a y s Mr C h a b a n e
20

w a s n o t h a p p y w i th th is b u t h e h a d t o c a r r y it o u t a n d h e s a id t o h i m
b e c a u s e I k n o w y o u a r e a g o o d – I t h i n k c i v il s e r v a n t h e s a i d – I w i ll tr y
a n d m a k e a p la n fo r y o u a n d Mr M a s e k o s a y s h e – h e d id n o t w a n t –
M r C h a b a n e d i d n o t w a n t to s o t o s p e a k t h r o w h i m i n t o t h e s tr e e t .
S o I th in k w h a t Mr P r e t o r iu s is a s k i n g is t h a t c o n te x t – I a m
ju s t p r o v id in g a f u l l e r c o n t e x t .

Page 28 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is w h e t h e r y o u h a v e a n y r e c o ll e c ti o n o f y o u h a v i n g

a s k e d M r C h a b a n e to r e d e p l o y h i m .

I n o th e r w o r d s a c c o r d i n g t o

M r M a s e k o fr o m w h a t h e w a s t o l d b y M r C h a b a n e t h e i d e a th a t h e
s h o u l d b e m o v e d fr o m G C I S c a m e fr o m th e P r e s i d e n t a n d n o t fr o m
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e . A r e y o u a b le t o th r o w a n y l ig h t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

No.

I – I t h in k I h a v e a

d i ff ic u l ty w i t h th a t . I f – le t - le t u s a s s u m e I w a n te d M a s e k o o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I w i ll w a i t u n ti l I l e a v e th e

c o u n tr y a n d w h e n I a m v e r y f a r a w a y t h e n c a ll . I t is q u i t e f u n n y. I a m
not

running

a

department.

Why

would

I

have

not

t a lk e d

to

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w h e n I w a s h e r e ? W h y s h o u l d I w a i t u n ti l I g o ? I t is
a l i tt l e fis h y. N o w I d o n o t w a n t t o m a k e a p o i n t b u t I c a n m a k e a p o i n t
b e c a u s e t h is C o m m is s i o n h a s e x p e r i e n c e w i t h t h is .
A t t i m e p e o p l e u s e th e n a m e s o f t h e P r e s id e n t .

I am sure

you had a witness here …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l a s t w e e k .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W h ic h s a i d – h e w a s l y i n g . H e
20

h a d n e v e r – h e h a d n e v e r h a d a n y i n s tr u c t io n s f r o m t h e P r e s id e n t .

I

a m s u r e t h a t c o u l d h a p p e n w i th t h e M i n is t e r s a s w e ll i f th e M i n is te r i s
fi n d i n g i t d i ff ic u l t to s a y to t h e D G I a m n o w s a y i n g g o a n d u s e t h e
n a m e o f t h e Pr e s i d e n t b e c a u s e I d o n o t s e e w h y I s h o u l d le a v e t h e
c o u n tr y.
O n l y w h e n I a m a b r o a d th e n I m u s t a t t e n d t o t h i s is s u e .

Page 29 of 107

It

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
d e f in i te ly – it is v e r y s tr a n g e a n d f u n n y a n d I – I n e v e r p h o n e d
C h a b a n e a b o u t t h e – th is D G w h e n I w a s a b r o a d . N o t a t a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir th e r e i s a r e q u e s t t o

address you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u . Mr ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : N o , I a m M r Th a b a n i ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I a m s o r r y.
ADV THABANI MASUKU: However – however …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I a m s o r r y.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : Ye s . C h a ir – C h a ir, w e to g e th e r w i th j u s t t h e
le g a l te a m w e h a v e a d u ty to r a is e c o n c e r n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU: When we see a development …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

I n t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h o u r c l ie n t is b e i n g

c r o s s - e x a m in e d . E s s e n ti a l ly w h a t is g o i n g o n n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU:
20

Is th a t M r P r e to r i u s is c r o s s - e x a m i n i n g

M r Zu m a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

H e is c r o s s - e x a m in i n g a b o u t i s s u e s w e a r e

not clear about.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

In s o f a r a s t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e a r e

Page 30 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
concerned.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : W e – a s y o u – a s y o u r e c a l l M r C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

T h e – M r Zu m a h a s r e a d t h i s a ff id a v i t .

We

have read it.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

W e t o o k t h e v i e w t h a t i t d o e s n o t i m p l ic a t e

t h e Pr e s id e n t in a n y o f th e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e th a t t h i s C o m m is s i o n i s
10

a b o u t. T h a t is t h e a t ti t u d e w e t o o k .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

N o w o f c o u r s e i n y o u r – i n y o u r d is c r e t io n

y o u d e c id e d th e Pr e s i d e n t s h o u l d c o m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : A n d – a n d t a k e – a n d g iv e h is v e r s io n o f – o f
events.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : W h a t is g o i n g o n n o w …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : I s n o t M r Pr e t o r iu s a s s i s ti n g M r Z u m a t o g iv e
h is v e r s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : W h a t h e i s d o i n g h e is c r o s s - e x a m i n in g h i m
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 31 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

B u t w h ic h is n o t a p r o b l e m i f M r Z u m a ’s

a tt i tu d e h a d b e e n t h a t t h e r e a r e a s p e c ts i n t h e s t a t e m e n t o f M r M a s e k o
t h a t i m p l ic a t e s h i m f r a u d , c o r r u p t io n a n d t h is S t a t e C a p tu r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : W e – w e a r e n o t a b le t o f o ll o w …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : H o w t o fi t th is c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n i n w h i c h h e
s e e k s M r Zu m a t o r e c a l l m e e t i n g s w h e r e h e w a s n o t p r e s e n t. I n w h ic h
h e s e e k s M r Z u m a t o – to i n t e r p r e t w h a t t h o s e m e e t i n g s m e a n t o r e v e n
10

t o g i v e a v i e w o f w h e t h e r t h o s e m e e ti n g s w e r e a p p r o p r i a te o r n o t . I t i s
n o t fa ir i f t h is – i f th e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n w is h e s t o
c r o s s - e x a m in e Mr Z u m a i t i s i m p o r ta n t t h a t t h e – Mr Z u m a is in f a c t
g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty to t h e n r e fl e c t w i t h a v i e w th a t h e is g o in g t o b e
c r o s s - e x a m in e d , to r e fl e c t o n a l l th e s e t h i n g s b e c a u s e y o u s a i d t h e
r u l e s o f th e C o m m i s s i o n s a y y o u l o o k a t a n a ff id a v i t t h a t i m p li c a t e s y o u
o r th a t m e n t i o n s y o u r n a m e .
Yo u m a k e a ju d g m e n t c a l l o n w h e t h e r o r n o t t h a t th e
a l le g a ti o n s m a d e i n t h a t a ffi d a v i t a r e o f a n a t u r e t h a t fi t w i th i n t h e
in v e s t i g a t iv e p o w e r s o f t h e – o f t h e C o m m is s i o n fr a u d , c o r r u p ti o n a n d

20

S t a te C a p tu r e .

N o w h e is b e i n g a s k e d to r e c a ll p h o n e c a l ls a n d

m e e ti n g s w h e r e h e w a s n o t p r e s e n t a n d t o i n t e r p r e t w h a t t h o s e
m e e ti n g s w o u l d m e a n .
W e th in k it i s u n f a ir b e c a u s e w h a t e s s e n ti a l ly i t m e a n s is th is
if h e c a n n o t s a y fo r e x a m p l e t h a t h e th in k s t h a t t h e m e e ti n g b e tw e e n
M r G u p t a – A j a y G u p t a a n d Mr M a s e k o w a s i n a p p r o p r i a te .

Page 32 of 107

Then you

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
m u s t r e a d s o m e th i n g i n to i t . I t is n o t r i g h t . I f th e – i f t h e C o m m is s i o n
r u l e s f o r e x a m p l e t h a t t h is li n e o f q u e s t io n i n g is t h e c o r r e c t l in e o f
q u e s t io n in g th a t m u s t b e a d o p t e d .
I t is n o l o n g e r a – a – i t is c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n . Yo u a r e tr y in g
t o p r o v e t h a t M r Zu m a ’s p r iv a t e c o n v e r s a ti o n h a d a – h a d – w e r e
s o m e h o w r e le v a n t to h is – t h e p u b l ic – to h is p u b li c i n te r a c t i o n o r h i s
in t e r a c ti o n w i th t h e G u p t a s i n – i n p u b l ic . G iv e h i m a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o
t h e n l o o k a t th is w i t h a v ie w t h a t h e is g o i n g t o b e c r o s s - e x a m i n e d a n d
t h e n h e c a n p r e p a r e a d e q u a t e l y f o r c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n .
10

N o t w h a t – n o t t h is – th is w o u l d s a y i n o u r – i n o u r v ie w – i n
o u r a s s e s s m e n t a s l a w y e r s i t i s c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n f o r w h ic h a w it n e s s
o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n g i v e n a f a i r o p p o r t u n i ty b e t o l d t h a t i f y o u a r e n o t
g o i n g t o – i f y o u a r e n o t g o in g t o f o r e x a m p l e r e s p o n d t o Mr M a s e k o
you may then - let us be called and be cross-examined or not
M r M a s e k o ’s c a s e .
H e i s b e in g c r o s s - e x a m i n e d o n w h a t M r M a s e k o s a i d .

How

c a n th e P r e s i d e n t b e e x p e c t e d t o r e m e m b e r m e e ti n g s w h e r e h e w a s n o t
t h e r e , p h o n e c a ll s th a t o c c u r r e d y e a r s a g o . I d o n o t r e c a ll p h o n e c a ll s
that happened last week.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

Now

-

now

Mr Zuma

must

r e c a ll

c o n v e r s a ti o n s th a t h e h a d w i t h Mr M a s e k o y e a r s a g o a n d w h a t h e m a y
have meant.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

I t h i n k le t u s b e f a i r a n d s t ic k t o w h a t t h is

Page 33 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C o m m i s s i o n is a b o u t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : T h e te r m s o f r e f e r e n c e b e a r i n g i n – i n m i n d
t h a t M r Z u m a ’s a s s e s s m e n t o f t h is a ffi d a v i t i s t h a t i t d o e s n o t i m p l ic a te
h i m in f r a u d a n d c o r r u p t io n . I f th e C o m m i s s i o n ’s v ie w is th a t it d o e s l e t
t h e m p u t t h o s e q u e s ti o n s t o h i m .

N o t a s k h i m t o r e m e m b e r m e e ti n g s

a n d – a n d – i f t h is a ff id a v i t a n y w h e r e s a y s t h a t M r Z u m a is c o r r u p t i n A ,
B , C a n d D t h e n h e m u s t p u t t h a t t o M r Z u m a b e c a u s e t h a t is – t h a t is
e x a c tl y w i th in t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e th a t t h is C o m m i s s i o n is a b o u t .
10

T h i s l in e o f – w e d o t h is o f t e n b u t w e d o it t o o p p o n e n t s – I
m e a n to w i t n e s s e s w h o w e a r e c r o s s - e x a m i n i n g . N o t w i t n e s s e s w e a r e
s u p p o s e d to j u s t in q u ir e a b o u t i n f o r m a ti o n b e c a u s e w e e x p e c t e d th a t
t h e C o m m i s s i o n w il l b e a s k i n g fo r c l a r i ty o n c e r ta in t h in g s n o t p o s e
q u e s t io n s t h a t a m o u n t to c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n . T h a t is w h a t w e – w e –
t h a t is w h a t w e – w e t h o u g h t w e w o u l d b r i n g t o t h e a t te n ti o n o f t h e – o f
the – of the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : O f t h e C o m m i t te e . Mr C h a ir w e w a n t e d t o d o
that in Chambers …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : B u t w e t h o u g h t n o a c t u a l ly it is p r o b a b ly u p
t o - t o b r i n g i t t o y o u r a t t e n t io n n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU: So that – so that if there is a need for us to
t h e n r e g r o u p a n d d e te r m in e h o w – h o w w e d e a l w it h i t .

Page 34 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : T h e n w e d e a l w it h i t b e c a u s e i f M r Pr e to r i u s
w a n ts t o c o n t in u e w i th c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

W e – w e w a it e d y e s t e r d a y b e c a u s e w e

r e a l is e d it w a s a c tu a lly c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : B u t w e s a i d n o m a y b e l a t e r o n w e w il l s e e a
– a n a p p r o a c h t h a t s e e k s t o e s t a b l is h f a c ts . I f M r Z u m a s a y s I d o n o t
10

r e m e m b e r t h a t m e e ti n g t h a t s h o u l d b e t h e e n d o f t h e m a t te r.

Why

s h o u l d i t t h e n b e a s k e d o h b u t y o u w o u l d h a v e d is c u s s e d t h i s p r iv a t e ly ?
W h a t – w h e r e is h e ta k i n g t h i s t o ? Te r m s o f r e fe r e n c e i n t h e t e r m s o f
r e fe r e n c e . L e t u s b e l o y a l t o t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : T h a t is – th a t is w h a t w e – w e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : W e w a n t t o p u t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w i ll h e a r w h a t M r Pr e to r iu s h a s t o s a y. I h a d a l it t le
b i t o f c o n c e r n i n r e l a ti o n to q u e s ti o n s t h a t r e l a t e d t o t h e m e e t in g t h a t
20

M r M a s e k o h a d w i t h t h e G u p t a s w h ic h o b v i o u s ly M r Z u m a d i d n o t a t t e n d
b u t w i t h r e g a r d to th e r e m o v a l o r tr a n s f e r o f – o f M r M a s e k o fr o m G C I S
t o – t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n i s t r a t io n m y
r e c o l l e c ti o n is t h a t h is s t a t e m e n t a n d / o r e v i d e n c e s u g g e s t e d th a t h e
w a s r e m o v e d fr o m h is p o s i ti o n a s C E O o f G C I S b e c a u s e h e d i d n o t
c o o p e r a t e w it h th e G u p t a s a n d t h a t h e w a s to l d t h a t b y t h e M i n i s t e r –

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e th a t th a t w a s a t t h e i n s t a n c e o f th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t .
T h a t is m y – m y r e c o l le c t i o n o f w h a t h e s a i d .

Of course if

o n e t a lk s a b o u t a p h o n e c a ll th a t h a p p e n e d m a n y y e a r s a g o s o m e c a l ls
o n e m i g h t r e c a l l b e c a u s e o f t h e ir d is ti n c t n a t u r e o r s i g n i fi c a n c e b u t
s o m e o n e w o u l d n o t r e c a ll . S o m e t i m e s o n e m i g h t n o t e v e n r e c a ll a c a l l
t h a t h a p p e n e d a f e w m o n t h s a g o b u t m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f Mr M a s e k o ’s
e v i d e n c e s u g g e s te d th a t t h e G u p t a s w e r e u n h a p p y th a t h e d i d n o t
cooperate with them and that he was removed when there were no
g r o u n d s to r e m o v e h i m a n d t h a t t h a t w a s a t t h e i n s t a n c e b a s e d o n w h a t
10

h e w a s to l d h e s a i d b y M in is t e r C h a b a n e o f th e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t b u t l e t
me hear what Mr …
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

S o r r y, s o r r y, p e r h a p s b e f o r e y o u t a k e

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

F ir s t ly in r e l a t io n t o w h a t th e C h a ir p e r s o n

h a s ju s t s k e t c h e d o u t t h e fi r s t p o i n t w o u l d b e t h i s , M r P r e to r i u s m u s t
s a y th a t t h e y a r e g o i n g t o b r i n g t h e G u p t a s o r w h o e v e r t h e y a l le g e in
the Guptas placed – I mean the witness from the Guptas are going to
s a y t h a t t h e y – w h o is g o i n g t o c o n f ir m t h is i n t e r a c ti o n t h a t M a s e k o i s
20

t a lk in g a b o u t , b e c a u s e i t is n o t , y o u s e e C h a ir w h a t y o u s a i d in t e r ms
o f y o u r – in t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e , w a s th a t i f y o u a r e i m p lic a t e d o n th e
is s u e s t h a t a r e w i t h i n t h e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e t h e n y o u a r e g o in g t o b e
g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o p u t y o u r v e r s i o n a n d t h e n p u t y o u r – a n d t h e n
o f c o u r s e y o u w il l b e , s o m e b o d y m i g h t a s k to c r o s s - e x a m i n e y o u ,
someone might ask to cross-examine you.

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
W e d id n ’ t g e t th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t th e e v id e n c e l e a d e r s h e r e
jo b w o u l d b e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e w i tn e s s e s , b u t e v e n o n t h e i s s u e t h a t M r
M a s e k o c o m p l a in s a b o u t t h a t h e w a s f ir e d o r h e w a s tr a n s f e r r e d
b e c a u s e o f s o m e i n t e r v e n t i o n th a t c a m e fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n c y, t h a t ’s a n
is s u e t h a t h e s a y s w e a r e a s s e s s i t , w e s a y in t e r m s o f t h e t e r m s o f
r e fe r e n c e t h e r e a r e n o a l le g a t i o n s h e ’s m a k i n g o n c o r r u p t io n , i f y o u
b r i n g M r A j a y o r Mr – o r a n y o f t h e G u p t a s h e r e i n t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d
t h e y s a y to y o u w e d i d s p e a k to Mr M a s e k o , w e i n fa c t to l d h i m t h a t w e
a r e t h e e a r o f t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h a t i f h e is n o t c o o p e r a ti n g o n t h is
10

b u s i n e s s w e w i ll c e r ta in i n v o k e , w e w il l u s e th a t r e la t io n s h i p a n d g e t
h i m r e m o v e d . W e t h i n k i t is h ig h ly u n f a ir i f th e G u p t a s a r e n o t g o i n g t o
b e h e r e t o te s t i fy a n d t o c o r r o b o r a te w h a t M r M a s e k o h a s s a id h e r e i t is
ju s t u n f a ir t o a s k th e P r e s i d e n t t o r e c a ll o r t o in t e r p r e t w h a t r o l e h e
m a y h a v e p l a y e d i n th e r e m o v a l o f M r M a s e k o , b u t t h e o t h e r t h i n g th a t
r e a s o n w h y w e d i d n o t t h in k t h a t fa ll s w i t h in y o u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e is
b e c a u s e i t is s o m e t h in g t h a t h a s t o d o w i t h h o w g o v e r n m e n t d e c i d e s t o
r e m o v e p e o p l e w h o a r e e m p l o y e d t h e r e o r d e p lo y t h e m o r t r a n s f e r th e m
in t o d i ffe r e n t u n it s .
I t is n o t w i t h i n – i f M r M a s e k o ’s a l le g a t i o n is th a t t h e r e w a s

20

c o r r u p ti o n h e m u s t s a y s o i n u n e q u iv o c a l t e r m s , o r t h a t h is r e m o v a l –
h is tr a n s f e r w a s i n p u r s u a n c e o f a c o r r u p t d e a l , h e m u s t s a y s o , it
c a n n o t b e r e a d th r o u g h c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n , w h ic h c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n w e
a r e n o t p r e p a r e d f o r, b e c a u s e w h a t w e w e r e p r e p a r e d f o r w h e n w e w e r e
in v i te d b y t h e C o m m i s s io n w a s f o r Mr Zu m a t o b e a s k e d c l a r i ty
q u e s t io n s ,

c l a r i fic a ti o n

q u e s t io n s ,

not

going

Page 37 of 107

th r o u g h

pages

and

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
paragraphs and cross-examining him on issues that he has elected to
t a k e a p o s i t io n , a l e g a l p o s i t io n w h ic h is t h a t h e i s n o t g o i n g to g e t
in v o lv e d i n M a s e k o ’s s p e c u la t io n a b o u t w h a t h i s m e e ti n g w i t h t h e
G u p t a s , w h o a u t h o r is e d it w h a t e ls e . I f M a s e k o i s b o l d e n o u g h t o s a y I
w a s r e m o v e d b e c a u s e t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s u n h a p p y t h a t I w a s n o t d o in g
t h e r i g h t th i n g h e m u s t s a y s o , a n d th a t th i s r i g h t t h i n g t h a t I w a s b e in g
a s k e d to – t h i s r i g h t t h in g t h a t I w a s d o i n g w a s i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h t h e
la w b u t t h e Pr e s i d e n t w a n t e d m e to d o s o m e t h i n g c o r r u p t , t h e n w e a r e
in t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e , t h e n w e w o u l d h a v e s a i d t o t h e P r e s i d e n t Mr
10

P r e s i d e n t Mr M a s e k o s a y s y o u a r e c o r r u p t a n d t h is i s h o w h e s a y s y o u
a r e c o r r u p t , a n d t h e n Mr P r e s id e n t w o u l d h a v e s a i d o k a y le t m e
r e s p o n d , th is i s m y s t a te m e n t .
T h e C o m m i s s i o n w o u l d h a v e a s ta t e m e n t a n s w e r i n g a l l e g a ti o n
o f c o r r u p ti o n o r S t a t e C a p t u r e o r w h a t e v e r i t is t h a t – a n d fr a u d . I f M r
M a s e k o ’s a c c u s a ti o n s o f Mr Z u m a a m o u n te d t o t h a t h e w a s c o r r u p t ,
t h e r e w a s a f r a u d u le n t c o n d u c t o n h is b e h a l f o r th a t th e r e w a s
s o m e t h i n g a b o u t S t a t e C a p t u r e t h a t o n e m u s t r e a d i n i t . Yo u c a n ’ t – i t
is n o t f a i r to c a l l a f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t t o c o m e a n d ta lk a b o u t h o w a n
o ffic i a l o f g o v e r n m e n t w a s r e m o v e d , w h e n y o u a r e n o t a ll e g i n g t h a t

20

t h e r e w a s c o r r u p t io n .

Pl e a s e m a k e th e a l le g a ti o n th a t t h e r e w a s

c o r r u p ti o n a n d t h e n l e t t h e Pr e s i d e n t d e a l w i t h th a t , o r t h a t t h e r e w a s
fr a u d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u s e e w h e n y o u d e a l w i t h a c a s e i n li ti g a ti o n
in c o u r t it is e a s y t o s a y w h e n y o u a r e f o r o n e s i d e t h e o th e r s id e m u s t
m a k e o u t i t s c a s e , b e c a u s e th a t is li ti g a ti o n . W h e r e i t is a n i n q u ir y a

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
p e r s o n m a k e c o m e a n d s a y th is i s w h a t I k n o w, I a m p la c i n g b e f o r e th e
C o m m i s s i o n w h a t I k n o w a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a n d t h e C o m m is s i o n m u s t
in q u ir e w h e t h e r t h a t m a y h a v e a n y th i n g t o d o w i t h a n y i m p r o p r i e ty, s o
w h il e o n t h e o n e h a n d t h e r e m u s t b e f a ir n e s s , t h e r e c a n b e n o d o u b t
a b o u t th a t , b u t o n e a ls o n e e d s to u n d e r s t a n d t h a t u n l ik e in l it i g a t io n
w h e r e o n e is a b le t o s a y w e ll t h a t p a r ty m u s t m a k e i t s c a s e c l e a r i n th e
p l e a d in g s a n d i n th e a ff id a v i ts , i n a n i n q u i r y y o u h a v e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e
p e o p l e s a y I a m o n ly h e r e to s a y w h a t I k n o w, w h a t y o u m a k e o f t h a t i n
t e r m s o f y o u r i n q u ir y w h e t h e r y o u t h i n k i t is r e l e v a n t o r ir r e le v a n t b u t
10

t h is is w h a t I a m h e r e t o s a y, s o o n e h a s g o t t o l o o k a t a l l o f t h a t .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : W i th r e s p e c t I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

B u t e v e n w i t h i n t h e C o m m i s s i o n o f In q u i r y

fir s tly i t w o u ld b e a m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g i f y o u u n d e r s to o d M r C h a ir t h a t I
w a s i n v o k in g a li t ig a ti o n s tr a t e g y.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : A l l I a m s a y i n g i s t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : Th a t i n t h e s t a t e m e n t s th a t y o u g e t , e v e n i f a
20

c o m p la i n a n t c o m e s h e r e b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d c o m p l a i n s , th e
c o m p la i n t m u s t b e in v e s t i g a t e d i f t h e a l le g a t io n s t h a t t h a t c o m p l a i n a n t
m a k e s f a ll w i t h i n t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n .

I am

s a y in g w e a d v i s e d M r Z u m a t h a t Mr M a s e k o ’s s ta t e m e n t d id n o t a c c u s e
h i m o f a n y c o r r u p t io n o r a n y f r a u d , o r a n y S t a te C a p t u r e , h e is u n h a p p y
w i t h s o m e t h i n g s a n d a ll t h a t . W h a t is h a p p e n i n g h e r e , a n d s o w e s a id

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
t o M r Z u m a s o w e d o n o t t h in k t h a t y o u s h o u l d p u t a s ta t e m e n t , s o t h a t
is w h y y o u d o n o t h a v e a s t a te m e n t .

In t e r m s o f t h e r u l e s y o u a r e

a l lo w e d n o t to p u t a s t a te m e n t t o e x p l a i n w h a t Mr M a s e k o s a y s ,
b e c a u s e h e d o e s n o t i m p lic a t e y o u in w h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n is a b o u t .
S o M r Z u m a d e c id e s h e is n o t g o i n g t o p u t a s t a t e m e n t , t h a t i s
w h a t h e h a s d o n e , b u t w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d h e r e is th a t h a v in g t a k e n
a d v a n t a g e a n d u s e d th e f u l l r i g h t h e h a s in t e r m s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n
r u l e s , n o t t o r e s p o n d t o a l it i g a n t o r to a w i t n e s s w h o s a y s , w h o m a k e s
a l le g a ti o n s th a t d o n o t a m o u n t t o c o r r u p t i o n . W h a t i s h a p p e n i n g h e r e
10

is j u s t n o t w h a t w e t h i n k s h o u l d b e h a p p e n i n g a n d th a t is w h y a s t h e y
s a y C h a ir w e s i t th e r e a n d w e t h o u g h t n o , a c t u a ll y l e t – b e c a u s e h e is a
g u e s t o f th e C o m m i s s io n , le t u s s e e h o w – w h a t th e y r e a ll y w a n t f r o m
h i m , w h a t in f o r m a t io n a r e t h e y l o o k i n g fr o m h i m in r e l a ti o n to Mr
Maseko.

D o e s h e m a k e t h e a ll e g a ti o n o f c o r r u p t io n , fr a u d a n d S ta t e

C a p t u r e a g a i n s t h i m f o r w h ic h h e s h o u ld b e c a ll e d to a n s w e r ?
A n d t h a t is w h y w e a r e a n x i o u s w i t h t h e s e k in d o f q u e s t i o n s in
t h is k i n d o f f o r u m a l o t c a n b e r e a d fr o m t h e q u e s t i o n s t h a t h e r e a d s
a n d fr o m t h e a n s w e r s th e y g e t, a n d w e d o n o t w a n t t h is C o m m i s s i o n t o
e n d u p in a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e i t is u n f a ir t o M r Z u m a b e c a u s e i t is s a i d to
20

M r Z u m a i f n o o n e m a k e s a ll e g a t i o n s o f c o r r u p ti o n o r fr a u d o r S t a te
C a p t u r e y o u d o n o t h a v e t o p u t a s t a te m e n t, y o u d o n o t n e e d to a s k Mr
M a s e k o – t o c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n Mr M a s e k o o n it , a n d h e h a s d o n e t h a t.
W e a c c e p t t h a t y o u c a n c a l l h i m t o a s k c l a r i ty q u e s ti o n s .
P l e a s e a s k c l a r i ty q u e s t io n s a n d n o t q u e s t io n s t h a t a m o u n t t o c r o s s e x a m in i n g b e c a u s e w e g o in t o c r e d ib il it y w h e n w e c r o s s - e x a m i n e a

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w i t n e s s , w e g o i n to c r e d i b ili t y s o M r M a s e k o is b e i n g m e a s u r e d a g a in s t
– h is a ll e g a t i o n s a r e b e in g m e a s u r e d a g a i n s t M r Z u m a , a n d w e w a n t t o
b e s u r e t h a t t h a t is n o t s o m e t h in g t h a t y o u a r e tr y i n g t o in v o k e , t h e
c r e d i b ili t y o f t h e w i tn e s s a n d w h e t h e r h e c a n b e tr u s te d f o r h is
r e c o l l e c ti o n o f w h a t M r M a s e k o s a y s , s o w e a r e a s k i n g t h e C o m m i s s i o n
t o b e fa ir t o t h e e x te n t t h a t i t a c c e p ts t h a t Mr Z u m a h a s b e e n c a l l e d a t
it s in s t a n c e t o s e e k c l a r i ty q u e s ti o n s , n o t t o a s k q u e s ti o n s t h a t a m o u n t
to

c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n

on

what

has

been

happening

as

cross-

e x a m in a ti o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e h e a r M r P r e to r i u s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I d o n o t w a n t
t o e n te r in t o a l o n g d e b a t e a s t o w h a t q u e s ti o n i n g is a n d w h a t c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n i s , s a v e t o s a y t h a t t h e r e is n o p le a d e d c a s e o r c h a r g e
s h e e t w h i c h w e a r e s e e k i n g t o v a l i d a t e o r s e c t io n s o f w h ic h w e a r e
seeking to prove through our questioning.

S o in s o f a r a s i t m a y b e

a l le g e d t h a t w e a r e s e e k i n g t o q u e s t io n , t o p r o v e a p a r ti c u l a r p le a d e d
c a s e i n a c iv i l m a t te r o r a p a r t ic u l a r c r i m i n a l c a s e a s r e p r e s e n te d b y a
20

c h a r g e s h e e t t h a t is s i m p l y n o t c o r r e c t.
W h a t w e a r e d o in g is a ff o r d i n g M r Z u m a a f u l l o p p o r t u n i ty t o
d e a l w i t h a ll th e fa c t u a l e v i d e n c e t h a t Mr M a s e k o l e d , a n d i n d e e d t h e
i m p l ic a t i o n s o f t h a t e v i d e n c e , a n d i t w o u l d b e g r o s s ly u n fa ir t o M r Z u m a
n o t to a l lo w h i m t h a t fu ll o p p o r t u n i ty t o d e a l w i t h w h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n
s a i d b y M r M a s e k o a n d a ls o w h a t m i g h t h a v e b e e n in t e n d e d b y h i m t o

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
h a v e b e e n c o n v e y e d , a n d o n c e M r Z u m a h a s d e a l t w it h i t , a s h e is
d e a li n g w i th i t, I r e a l ly d o n ’ t s e e t h a t w e a r e t r a v e r s i n g a n y r u l e s , b u t
in s o f a r a s w e a r e C h a ir y o u w i ll n o d o u b t p u l l m e u p a n d g u id e m e
a c c o r d i n g l y, a n d I a m q u i t e w i ll in g t o a c c e p t s u c h – o b v i o u s l y s u c h
in t e r v e n t i o n b y y o u r s e l f .
T h e s e c o n d p o i n t i s i n r e l a ti o n t o a s s u m e d o b l ig a ti o n t o c a ll
t h e G u p t a s t o c o r r o b o r a te M r M a s e k o b e fo r e q u e s ti o n s c a n b e a s k e d , I
a m n o t s u r e t h a t it i s c o r r e c t a t a ll to s a y t h a t y o u c a n n o t a s k q u e s t io n s
a b o u t t h e e v id e n c e o f o n e w it n e s s u n t il it h a s b e e n c o r r o b o r a t e d b y
10

a n o t h e r w it n e s s . O n e n e e d n o t d e a l w i th t h a t is s u e a n y fu r th e r.
T h ir d ly i n te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e , I u n d e r s t a n d t h e a r g u m e n t t o b e
t h a t u n le s s th e r e i s a d ir e c t a ll e g a t i o n o f fr a u d a n d c o r r u p t i o n a g a in s t
M r Zu m a w e a r e p r e c l u d e d fr o m e n t e r in g i n t o t h i s a r e n a .
M a y I ju s t h i g h li g h t p a r a g r a p h 1 . 1 o f o u r t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e ,
w h ic h j u s t s a y s w h e th e r a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t a n d b y w h o m a t te m p t s w e r e
m a d e th r o u g h a n y f o r m o f i n d u c e m e n t o r f o r a n y g a i n w h a ts o e v e r
n a t u r e t o in f lu e n c e t h e i m p r o p e r in f lu e n c e o f m e m b e r s o f t h e N a t io n a l
E x e c u t iv e a n d t h e i m p r o p e r i n fl u e n c e o f Mr M a s e k o f a ll s s q u a r e l y w i th i n
o u r t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e a n d it i s o n ly f a i r t o M r Z u m a i n t h e s e

20

c ir c u m s ta n c e s t o a s k h i m w h a t

h e k n e w, i f a n y t h in g , a b o u t h i m , to

e n a b l e h i m e i t h e r t o d is ta n c e h i m s e l f a s h e h a s to d a t e c o m p l e te ly fr o m
t h a t u n d u e i n fl u e n c e o r to a d m i t t h a t I d id h a v e b e c a u s e I w a s i n
s u p p o r t o f th e p r o j e c t . I t ’s n o t u n fa ir t o a s k M r Z u m a t h o s e q u e s ti o n s
s o h e c a n g iv e h i s v e r s io n a s t o w h a t t h e i m p o r t o f t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r
M a s e k o m i g h t b e a n d M r M a s e k o ’s e v id e n c e w h ic h w e w e r e d e a l in g w i t h

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
n o w w h ic h g a v e r i s e t o t h e o b j e c t io n , a t le a s t th e ti m i n g o f t h e
o b j e c ti o n , i s p a r t ic u l a r i n t h a t w h a t M r M a s e k o s a y s is t h a t f o l lo w in g in
t h e c o n te x t o f M r M a s e k o ’s f a il u r e t o a c c e d e t o w h a t m a y w e l l b e
a r g u e d i m p r o p e r i n fl u e n c e h e w a s fir e d a n d i t w o u l d b e g r o s s ly u n f a i r t o
M r Z u m a i f th e l e a d in g t e a m w e r e t o a s k y o u t o m a k e f in d in g s i n t h a t
r e g a r d b e c a u s e t h e e v id e n c e w a s u n c h a l le n g e d a n d M r Z u m a h a s n ’ t
h a d a n o p p o r t u n i ty to d e a l w i th i t.
L e t m e d e a l w i t h a n o t h e r te r m o f r e f e r e n c e , 1 . 6 , i t s a y s
whether our
10

m a n d a t e is

to

in v e s ti g a t e w h e t h e r

th e r e

were

any

ir r e g u l a r i ti e s , u n d u e e n r ic h m e n t, c o r r u p ti o n a n d u n d u e i n f l u e n c e i n t h e
a w a r d in g

of

n e w s p a p e r,

c o n t r a c ts ,
so

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government

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is s u e

a d v e r ti s i n g
of

in

government

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New

a d v e r t is in g

Age
is

p a r t ic u l a r ly h i g h l ig h t e d in t h e te r m s o f r e f e r e n c e in r e l a t i o n n o t o n l y to
fr a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n , b u t i n r e l a ti o n t o a n y in f lu e n c e t h a t m ig h t b e
a r g u e d t o b e u n d u e a n d q u i t e f a ir ly to M r Z u m a h e c o m m e n t e d o n th a t
y e s t e r d a y, s a y i n g t h a t th e i n fl u e n c e s o u g h t to b e e x e r c is e d w a s n o t
e n t ir e ly p r o p e r, h e u s e d h i s o w n w o r d s , I c a n n o t r e c a ll th e m a t th e
moment.
S o b a s ic a l ly a l l o n e n e e d s to d o f o r t h e m o m e n t a n d g o i n g
20

f o r w a r d is i n f a i r n e s s t o M r Z u m a p u t t o M r Zu m a t h e i m p o r t o f w h a t M r
M a s e k o h a s d o n e , I d o n o t h a v e f a r t o g o a t a l l , a n d I s u b m i t th e l in e o f
q u e s t io n in g h a s b e e n n o t o n ly p r o p e r b u t n e c e s s a r y i n o r d e r to e n s u r e
t h a t i n r e l a ti o n to a ll t h e e v id e n c e i t s i m p o r t M r Z u m a h a s a fa ir
o p p o r t u n i ty to d e a l w i th it .
I h a v e n e v e r s a i d t o Mr Z u m a I p u t i t to y o u a s c r o s s -

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
e x a m in e r s w h o f e a t u r e d p r o m in e n tly o n T V in th e p a s t h a v e d o n e , t h a t
y o u a r e w r o n g a n d th is i s t h e v e r s io n th a t w e s e e k t o p r o v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u w o u ld lik e t o r e s p o n d ?
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

Ye s , i n t h e tr a d i ti o n o f a u d i I l ik e M r

Pretorius respond to some of the things that he says.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U :

Fir s t ly C h a ir w h a t is a s t o n is h i n g f o r u s is

t h a t th is C o m m i s s i o n c l e a r ly w a s c r e a t e d a r o u n d th e w o r k th a t t h e
P r e s i d e n t h a d d o n e . W e h a v e n o t r e c e iv e d a s in g l e i n v i ta t io n fr o m t h e
10

e v i d e n c e le a d e r s f o r th e m t o in t e r v i e w M r Z u m a , p r iv a te ly, a s t h e y h a v e
d o n e w i th t h e o th e r w i t n e s s e s , to s a y t o M r Z u m a w e w o u l d li k e y o u to
g iv e u s a v i e w o f w h a t is g o in g o n h e r e , a n d to e x p l a i n c e r t a i n t h in g s ,
w h ic h i s w h a t t h e y h a v e d o n e . M r Z u m a h a s n o t b e e n tr e a t e d t h e s a m e
w a y t h a t o t h e r M i n is te r s w h o h a v e a p p e a r e d h e r e , w h o a r e – a p p e a r t o
b e w i t n e s s e s o f t h e C o m m i s s io n .
A d e c e n t w a y o f d e a li n g w i t h th is , a n d I d o n ’ t m e a n d i s r e s p e c t
t o th e C o m m is s i o n e r o r t o t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s , w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o
s a y h e is a m a jo r w it n e s s o f w h a t t h e y a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g , le t u s t a lk t o
h i m f ir s t, l e t u s u n d e r s t a n d w h a t s ta t e m e n t w e c a n g e t fo r m h i m ,

20

b e c a u s e t h e n i t is e a s i e r t o le a d h i m a s t h e y h a v e l e d o th e r w it n e s s e s ,
o th e r m i n is t e r s t h e y h a v e le d h e r e in t h e C o m m i s s i o n . T h e y h a v e l e d
t h e m b e c a u s e th e y h a v e b e e n a b le t o p u t t o g e t h e r a s t a t e m e n t fr o m
t h e m w i th e v i d e n c e a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e y c a n t a k e t h e M i n is te r t h r o u g h
t h e a s p e c ts . W h y h a s M r Z u m a b e e n b r o u g h t in t h i s m a n n e r, if i t w a s
n o t c r o s s - e x a m i n e h i m , s o I a m s a y in g in r e s p e c t – t h i s – t h i s – h e s a y s

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
w e ll y o u k n o w t h is is n o t a c r i m i n a l c h a r g e , w e a r e n o t p r o v i n g a
charge, we are not in a civil trial.

H e i s s i m p li fy i n g t h e is s u e s , h e

k n o w s th a t w h a t i s g o i n g o n h e r e is o f i n t e r e s t to t h e c r i m i n a l la w
enforcement processes, he knows that.

W h y i s h e d i m in is h i n g t h e

v a l u e o f t h i s p r o c e s s b y s a y i n g n o th in g , w e ’r e n o t – w e d o n ’ t h a v e a
c h a r g e s h e e t , w e a r e n o t tr y in g to p r o v e a c iv il c la i m .
I n f a c t i t is n o t r i g h t , n o w t h a t I k n o w w h a t h is v ie w s a r e o n
t h is i s s u e i t is n o t r i g h t t h e w a y h e w a n t s to c a r r y o n w i th th is .

The

d e c e n t t h i n g t o h a v e d o n e i f th is w a s a C o m m is s i o n w i tn e s s , a s o t h e r s
10

h a v e b e e n C o m m i s s i o n w it n e s s e s t h e d e c e n t w a y to h a v e d o n e i t is t o
s a y y o u h a v e th e h e l m o f t h e e x e c u tiv e t h a t w e a r e l o o k in g a t , w e
w o u ld l ik e t o ta lk t o y o u a b o u t i t . W e – t h e y a d d r e s s e d a l e t t e r t o M r
M a n ts h a , M r M a n t s h a w i ll s a y o k a y g u y s w e w ill t a l k t o th e P r e s i d e n t ,
y o u c o m e a n d s e e h i m a t N k a n d l a , h e w ill t e l l y o u e x a c t ly w h a t y o u
w a n t , t h e y t h e n c r e a t e a s ta t e m e n t a s t h e y h a v e d o n e w i th o t h e r
m i n is t e r s . W h y h a v e t h e y d o n e i t t h i s w a y ?
S o I a m s a y i n g .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : S o I a m s a y in g l e t u s b e f a ir, i n f a c t w h e n h e

20

s a y s i t w il l b e u n f a i r t o M r Z u m a , h e i s n o t b e i n g – th a t is r e a l ly a
s t a te m e n t t h a t I s h o u l d n ’ t – I t h i n k s h o u ld n o t b e d i g n i f ie d , b e c a u s e
w h a t is fa ir t o M r Zu m a is t o b e tr e a te d in a c c o r d a n c e w i th th e s p ir it
a n d t h e p u r p o s e o f t h i s C o m m i s s io n .

I t is n o t i n t h e s p i r i t o f th is

C o m m i s s i o n t o c o m e h e r e a n d s a y w e l l i t i s in t h e t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e
t h a t w e c a n i n v e s t ig a t e a n y t h i n g .

W h a t h e h a s j u s t r e a d s p e c i fic a lly

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
s a y s i t – i t is s p e c i fi c , i t r e q u ir e s th a t a w i t n e s s m a k e s a n a ll e g a t i o n
t h a t t h e r e i s fr a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n , h e is n o t l e f t t o s p e c u l a ti o n , a n d in
f a c t t h e y c o u l d h a v e s o r te d o u t m o s t o f th e s e th i n g s t h a t t h e y a r e
a s k in g n o w i f th e y h a d d o n e w h a t th e y h a d d o n e w i th t h e m i n is t e r s . I f
t h e y h a d g o n e to h i m a n d s a id lo o k I m e a n w e ’r e n o w in t h e m i d d l e o f a
C o m m i s s i o n y o u e s t a b li s h e d , w e w o u l d l ik e to h e a r w h a t y o u s a y a b o u t
s o m e o f t h e t h in g s t h a t h a v e c o m e u p . W e w i ll t h e n d o a s ta t e m e n t a n d
t h e n w e a r e g o in g to b r i n g it t o t h e C o m m is s io n a n d t h e n w e a r e g o i n g
t o l e a d th e e v i d e n c e , le a d th e e v i d e n c e n o t c r o s s - e x a m in e y o u .
10

So

w h a t a r e w e m e a n t to d o w i th t h is ?
I t is n o t r i g h t , w e w o u l d s u g g e s t t h a t y o u s e r io u s ly c o n s i d e r
t h a t p r o p o s a l o f a s k in g th e m t o ta lk t o h i m a b o u t th e t h i n g s t h a t t h e y
w a n t ; t o th e n m a k e a s ta t e m e n t i f t h e y w a n t t o m a k e a s ta t e m e n t a n d
t h e n t o l e a d h i m p r o p e r l y. T h is i s c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n a n d a s h is l e g a l
t e a m w e c a n n o t s it t h e r e a n d – h e c a n s a y w h a t e v e r h e w a n ts t o s a y,
y o u d o n o t , a c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n q u e s t i o n i s n o t – i t is n o t p r a c ti c e , a n d
h e i s m o r e s e n io r t h a n I a m , it i s n o t p r a c t ic e t h a t y o u s a y I p u t i t t o
y o u , t h a t i s n o t h o w w e i d e n t i fy w h e th e r t h is is a c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o r
n o t . Th e fa c t t h a t h e d o e s n o t s a y I p u t it to y o u d o e s n o t m e a n th a t

20

t h e q u e s t i o n is n o t a c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n q u e s ti o n .
T h e r e is s e r i o u s c r e d i b i li t y i s s u e s th a t h e i s p u r s u i n g h e r e ,
that we are concerned about.

Th is i s n o t h o w w e e n v is a g e d t h a t t h is

C o m m i s s i o n i n t e n d s to p u r s u e t h is i s s u e .

W e w o u ld s e r i o u s ly u r g e

C h a ir t h a t y o u c o n s i d e r a s k i n g t h e m t o s e e i f t h e y c a n n o t h a v e a
c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h th e P r e s id e n t a b o u t t h e s e is s u e s s o t h e y h a v e a

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
s t a te m e n t fr o m h i m , n o t t o s i m p l y s p r i n g th in g s fr o m h i m t h a t t h e w a y i n
w h ic h t h e y a r e c o n d u c t in g t h e m s e lv e s , t h a t is w h y I a s k e d t h e q u e s t io n
w h y h a s h e b e e n b r o u g h t h e r e i n t h i s m a n n e r.

Why has he not been

fir s tly in v i t e d to b r i n g a s t a t e m e n t , b e c a u s e t h e y c a n d o t h a t , t h e y
c a n n o t te ll u s th a t t h e M in is t e r s th a t th e y b r o u g h t h e r e w e r e f ir s tl y
i m p l ic a t e d o n p a p e r a n d t h e n o f c o u r s e t h e y m u s t h a v e c o n s u l te d w i t h
t h e m , I d o n ’ t – h e c a n c o r r e c t m e i f I’ m w r o n g , a s t a te m e n t w a s c r e a t e d
a n d th e n o f c o u r s e y o u h a v e g o t t h e ir s t a t e m e n t s h e r e . M r Z u m a d o e s
n o t h a v e a s t a te m e n t c r e a te d b y t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s . W h y i s t h a t s o ?
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Thank you.

I th i n k w h a t I w o u l d lik e t o d o is

t h a t w e t a k e t h e te a b r e a k a n d a t th e e n d o f t h e t e a b r e a k m a y I s e e
c o u n s e l o n b o th s id e s i n m y te m p o r a r y c h a m b e r s h e r e , c a n I s e e b o t h
c o u n s e l o n b o t h s i d e s a n d j u s t t o tr y a n d s e e i f w e m a y a t l e a s t a c h i e v e
a c o m m o n u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s t o w h e r e t h e c o n c e r n s a r e a n d w h e t h e r
t h e r e i s a w a y o f r e s o lv in g th e m in t e r m s o f t h e w a y f o r w a r d w i t h o u t m e
h a v i n g t o m a k e a n y r u li n g .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W e w il l t a k e th e te a a d jo u r n m e n t n o w, i t i s

a b o u t t w e n ty t w o m i n u t e s p a s t e l e v e n , I t h i n k l e t u s a i m t o r e s u m e a t
20

t w e lv e to g iv e o u r s e lv e s t i m e fo r te a a n d ti m e f o r t h e m e e ti n g t h a t I
m u s t h a v e w it h c o u n s e l o n b o t h s id e s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES

Page 47 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
CHAIRPERSON:

M y m e e t in g w i th c o u n s e l o n b o t h s i d e s t o o k l o n g e r

t h a n I h a d a n tic i p a t e d t h a t is w h y w e w e r e n o t a b l e t o r e s u m e a t t w e lv e .
H o w e v e r I a m h a p p y to s a y t h a t th e m e e t i n g t h a t I h a v e h a d w i th b o t h –
w i t h c o u n s e l fr o m b o th s i d e s h a s b e e n a v e r y c o n s tr u c t iv e a n d f r u i tf u l
m e e ti n g .
T h e d is c u s s io n t h a t I h a d w it h c o u n s e l f r o m b o t h s i d e s h a s
r e s u l t e d i n a n a g r e e m e n t th a t I d o n o t n e e d t o m a k e a n y r u li n g o n t h e
c o n c e r n s o r o b j e c t io n s t h a t h a d b e e n r a is e d .
A w a y h a s b e e n f o u n d t o tr y a n d m i n i m i s e a n y p r o s p e c ts o f a n y
10

f e e li n g o f u n fa ir n e s s . C o u n s e l fo r th e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t h a v e i n d ic a te d
t h a t th e y d o n o t w is h to b e s e e n a s i f th e y a r e o b s tr u c ti v e b y r i s i n g a l l
t h e – v e r y o f te n a n d r a is in g o b j e c t io n s w h e n e v e r t h e r e m i g h t b e
something that they are concerned about.
T h e y h a v e s a i d th a t t h e y w is h M r P r e to r i u s to b e a b l e to a s k
q u e s t io n s w i t h o u t h a v in g t o l o o k o v e r h is s h o u l d e r s w h e t h e r th e y a r e
r is i n g t o o b j e c t o r n o t.

It has been agreed that because they do not

in t e n d t o d o t h a t I w i ll tr y a n d b e m o r e r e a d y t o i n t e r v e n e i n c a s e I
t h i n k t h e r e is u n f a ir n e s s i n a n y q u e s ti o n . B u t i t h a s b e e n a g r e e d th a t
w e c a n p r o c e e d w e d o n o t – I d o n o t n e e d t o m a k e a r u l in g .
20

M r Pr e t o r i u s fr o m h is s i d e w il l tr y a n d fi n d a w a y to p u t
q u e s t io n s i n a m a n n e r th a t w i ll t a k e a c c o u n t o f a n y c o n c e r n s t h a t h e
m a y t h i n k m a y c r e a t e u n f a ir n e s s .
S o w e a r e g o in g t o p r o c e e d a n d Mr Z u m a ’s c o u n s e l h a v e
in d i c a t e d th a t th e y w il l r e a ll y r a is e a n o b je c t io n if i t i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s
q u i te s e r io u s b u t o t h e r w is e t h e y i n t e n d to t r y a n d a ll o w t h e p r o c e e d i n g s

Page 48 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
t o fl o w a s m u c h a s p o s s i b l e .

S o w e w il l p r o c e e d o n t h a t b a s is a n d I

ju s t w i s h to t h a n k c o u n s e l fr o m b o t h s id e s f o r t h e i r c o n s tr u c t iv e
a p p r o a c h to r e s o lv in g t h e is s u e t h a t w e h a v e r e s o lv e d . Th a n k y o u v e r y
much.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :
Thank you.

Mr Zuma may we proceed then?

Yo u h a v e b e f o r e y o u c o p i e s o f th e s t a t e m e n ts th a t h a v e

b e e n e n l a r g e d . I h o p e th a t is m o r e c o n v e n i e n t f o r y o u a n d th a t w e m a y
10

c o n ti n u e o u r e n g a g e m e n t . T h a n k y o u . W h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o p u t t o y o u
in r e l a ti o n t o th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr M a s e k o is s i m p l y w h a t h e t o ld t h e
C h a ir in h is e v i d e n c e s o t h a t y o u h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e s p o n d t o i t .
A n d t h e i m p o r t o f w h a t h is e v i d e n c e is s o t h a t y o u a l s o h a v e a n
o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e s p o n d t o t h a t.

A n d if I m a y a s k y o u t o lo o k a t

p a r a g r a p h 4 7 a n d 4 8 o n p a g e 9 . W h a t M r M a s e k o s a y s is t h a t h e w a s
t o l d b y Mr C h a b a n e t h a t h e h a d b e e n i n s tr u c t e d b y t h e Pr e s id e n t t h a t is
y o u r s e l f to r e d e p l o y m e o r t e r m i n a t e my c o n tr a c t h e n c e f o r th . Yo u h a v e
a lr e a d y t o l d t h e C h a ir I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u g a v e n o s u c h i n s tr u c t io n
a n d y o u e x p l a i n e d h o w i t w o u ld c o m e a b o u t i n t h e o r d i n a r y c o u r s e t h a t
20

D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l m a y h a v e h is e m p l o y m e n t t e r m in a t e d a t th e h a n d s o f
t h e r e p o r t i n g M i n i s t e r. D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Right.

He then says in paragraph

48:
“ H e to ld m e t h a t i s M in is t e r C h a b a n e t o l d M r M a s e k o

Page 49 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
that although he no choice but to implement the
in s t r u c t i o n

from

the

President,

he

made

a

c o m m i t m e n t n o t t o th r o w m e in t h e s tr e e t b e c a u s e h e
knew that I was a committed civil servant who had
not done anything wrong.”
T h e e s s e n c e o f t h a t s t a t e m e n t b y M r M a s e k o is t h a t h e w a s t o ld b y
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e th a t h e h a d b e e n a c o m m i t t e d c i v il s e r v a n t w h o h a d
n o t d o n e a n y th i n g w r o n g . D o y o u h a v e a n y r e s p o n s e o r c o m m e n t a b o u t
that?
10

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

No I do not know the – that

m e s s a g e . I n e v e r g a v e a n y i n s tr u c ti o n t o t h a t e ffe c t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Ye s .

Ye s .

W h a t – w h a t is b e i n g

s a i d I th i n k b y M r M a s e k o is t h a t a s f a r a s M in is t e r C h a b a n e w a s
c o n c e r n e d h e h a d n o t d o n e a n y t h in g w r o n g , d o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g
a b o u t t h a t s ta t e m e n t a n d M r C h a b a n e ’s a t t it u d e ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o . I th in k a s I s a id e a r l ie r a t
t h a t ti m e t h e r e w a s s h if t in g o f t h e D G ’s b e tw e e n t h e d e p a r t m e n ts f o r a
v a r ie t y o f r e a s o n s s o I n e v e r is s u e d a n y i n s tr u c t io n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :
20

Then over the page on page 10

t h e r e is r e fe r e n c e t o a c a b in e t m e e ti n g a n d w h a t M r M a s e k o s a y s i n
p a r a g r a p h 4 9 is :
“ D u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e c a b in e t m e e t in g I w a s
in f o r m e d t h a t E T V N e w s c h a n n e l w a s r u n n i n g w i t h a
n e w s t o r y t h a t I w a s f ir e d . ”
Paragraph 50:

Page 50 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
“ D u r i n g t h e t e a b r e a k I b r o u g h t t h i s t o t h e a t te n ti o n
o f M i n i s te r C h a b a n e w h o w a s s h o c k e d t h a t t h e m a te r
o f m y i m m i n e n t e x i t w a s s o m e h o w l e a k e d t o th e
media.”
Then 51:
“Minister

Chabane

c o n s u l te d

w it h

the

President

during the break and an impromptu announcement
had

to

be

t e r m in a t e d
10

made
as

to
GCIS

Cabinet
CEO

th a t
and

I

had

been

Government

Spokesperson.”
T h a t is e v i d e n c e w h ic h r e l a te s t o a d ir e c t c o n s u l t a ti o n o r e v i d e n c e o f a
d ir e c t c o n s u l t a ti o n b e t w e e n M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a n d y o u r s e l f d u r i n g a
c a b i n e t m e e ti n g r e la t in g t o a n a n n o u n c e m e n t t h a t i n e ff e c t th a t M r
M a s e k o h a d b e e n f ir e d . D o y o u r e c a ll a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h a t i n c i d e n t o r
t h a t a l le g e d in c i d e n t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :

N o I r e c a ll t h a t t h e M i n is t e r

c o m i n g t o m e r e p o r ti n g th is a n d a s a l w a y s t h e n t h e y w e r e g o i n g to
r e s p o n d to t h e n e w s p a p e r. I t w a s ju s t in f o r mi n g m e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : D i d Mi n is t e r C h a b a n e g iv e y o u a n y
20

b a c k g r o u n d to t h e – a n d I u s e t h e w o r d f ir i n g a d v is e d ly b e c a u s e i t i s
u s e d in t h e s t a t e m e n t o f Mr M a s e k o ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o h e d i d n o t g iv e m e – I m e a n
h e d i d n o t d is c u s s th e m a t te r in t e r m s o f t h e b a c k g r o u n d . H e w a s j u s t
s a y in g t h e y h a v e g o t t o d e a l w i t h th is m a t t e r b e c a u s e a t t h a t t i m e th e r e
w a s a s h i f ti n g o f t h e D G ’s b u t h e d i d n o t d is c u s s th e c a u s e s a s to w h y

Page 51 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
t h e o t h e r D G w a s g o i n g t h i s w a y. W h a t h e w a s c o n c e r n e d w i th a t th e
ti m e w a s to c o r r e c t t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t w a s b e i n g g iv e n b y t h e m e d i a
that he has been sacked.

T h a t n o h e h a s b e e n s h i ft e d to a n o t h e r

d e p a r t m e n t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Did you know of the transfer then

b e c a u s e t h a t i s d e a l t w i t h i n th e r e m a i n d e r o f p a g e 1 0 o f M r M a s e k o to
t h e p o s t o f D ir e c to r G e n e r a l a t th e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic S e r v ic e a n d
A d m i n i s t r a t io n ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s , y e s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

W a s t h a t p a r t o f a n y d e c is i o n t h a t

you made?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :

N o t h e d e c is i o n w a s m a d e b y

t h e c a b i n e t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : B y th e c a b i n e t . L e t m e j u s t g iv e y o u
a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o m m e n t M r Z u m a o n t h e i m p o r t o f t h e s t a t e m e n t o f
M r M a s e k o . M r M a s e k o h i s e v i d e n c e is t h a t a n i m p r o p e r a p p r o a c h w a s
m a d e t o h i m t o e n s u r e th a t th e fu ll b u d g e t o f t h e v a r io u s d e p a r t m e n ts
f o r G o v e r n m e n t a d v e r ti s i n g w a s a ll o c a te d i n f a v o u r o f t h e N e w A g e
N e w s p a p e r.
20

Th a t is h i s e v i d e n c e .

And what he at least seeks to

c o n c l u d e fr o m h is s ta t e m e n t i s t h a t t th e v e r y l e a s t h e w a s p u n is h e d f o r
n o t c o o p e r a t i n g a s h e w a s r e q u e s t e d to d o b y M r A ja y G u p ta a n d i n
q u o ti n g th e M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e a s h e d o e s i n h is s t a t e m e n t h e a t tr i b u t e s
t h e d e c is io n to d is m i s s o r tr a n s f e r w h a te v e r t h a t d e c is io n w a s to
y o u r s e l f . D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n th a t?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No. I was not the cause of his

Page 52 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
b e i n g s h if t e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I f w e m a y m o v e o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d m a y b e – m a y b e b e f o r e t h a t . A n d is i t s o m e th i n g
y o u h a v e q u i te a c le a r r e c o ll e c t io n o f t h a t y o u – y o u d i d n o t c a u s e h i m
t o b e s h i f te d . It w o u l d h a v e b e e n a r e q u e s t fr o m h is M i n is t e r ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I w o u l d l ik e to g o to p a g e 1 7 i f I m a y
a n d th a t w a s t h e s t a t e m e n t o f Ms M e n t o r. N o w I a m m i n d fu l o f c e r t a i n
c o m m e n t s m a d e C h a ir y e s t e r d a y a b o u t t h e e v id e n c e o f M s M e n to r
w h e t h e r i t w a s r e l i a b le o r c r e d i b l e i n a n y s e n s e a n d w h e th e r i t w o u ld i n
t h o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s b e f a ir t o M r Z u m a t o p u t a n y th i n g a b o u t w h a t M s
M e n to r s a i d .

Fr o m t h e le g a l t e a m ’s p o in t o f v ie w fir s tly t h a t is w h a t

w a s p r e s a g e d in t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b u t t h a t is a f o r m a li ty. I t n e e d s to
b e e m p h a s is e d t h a t n o fi n d i n g h a s y e t b e e n m a d e a b o u t t h e c r e d i b il it y
a n d r e li a b i li ty o f h e r te s ti m o n y. T h a t is a m a t t e r f o r l a t e r c o n s i d e r a t i o n
a n d d e c is i o n b y y o u r s e l f C h a ir.
20

H a v i n g h e a r d a l l t h e e v id e n c e a n d h a v i n g g iv e n e v e r y b o d y w h o
is c o n c e r n e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty to ta lk .

S o w h a t e v e r m a y b e s a id a b o u t

h e r e v i d e n c e i t i s c o g e n c y o r o t h e r w i s e it is i n c u m b e n t u p o n u s

I

u n d e r s t a n d n e v e r t h e l e s s t o p u t h e r v e r s i o n to M r Z u m a fo r h i s
comment.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .

Page 53 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S :

I n s u m m a r y Mr Zu m a w h a t Ms

M e n to r te s t i fi e d to w a s t h a t a m e m b e r o f t h e G u p t a fa m i ly “ o ff e r e d ” a n d
I u s e t h a t w o r d a d v i s e d l y i n i n v e r te d c o m m a s b e c a u s e w h e t h e r i t w a s
a n o ff e r o r n o t I w i ll d e a l w i t h in a m o m e n t . A M i n is t e r i a l p o s i ti o n i n
e x c h a n g e f o r fa v o u r i n g t h e c o m m e r c i a l i n t e r e s ts o f th e G u p ta ’s a n d t h a t
s h e g o e s f u r th e r – s h e s a y s th a t th a t o ff e r i n s o f a r a s i t w a s a n o ff e r
was made with the knowledge and approval of yourself. Now we can go
through it bit by bit.

T h e r e a r e o t h e r s u r r o u n d i n g a s p e c ts o f h e r

e v i d e n c e th a t I c a n p u t to y o u – I s h o u l d p u t t o y o u b r i e fly i n fa ir n e s s
10

b u t t h a t i s th e e s s e n c e o f h e r e v i d e n c e . D o y o u w a n t to a n s w e r it a t a
g e n e r a l l e v e l o r s h a l l w e g o in t o th e d e t a i l ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I h a d n o i n t e r a c ti o n w i t h t h is
witness, nothing.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : R i g h t . S h e s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 1 6 t o
2 1 o f h e r e v id e n c e o r o f h e r s t a t e m e n t r a th e r t h a t s h e o c c u p ie d t h e
p o s i ti o n a s C h a ir o f a P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n P u b lic E n t e r p r is e s . S h e
s a i d s h e w a s a n d s h e u s e s th e w o r d e l e c t e d a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e
P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n P u b li c E n t e r p r i s e s in 2 0 0 4 a n d th a t i n 2 0 1 0 s h e
w a s r e m o v e d fr o m t h i s p o s i ti o n . A n d a g a i n w h a t s h e s a y s is t h a t in h e r

20

o p i n i o n t h e r e a s o n s f o r h e r r e m o v a l w e r e t w o f o ld t h a t s h e r e fu s e d t o
m e e t w i th y o u r s e l f o n t h a t C h i n a s ta t e v is i t w h ic h I t h i n k y o u w o u l d
r e c a l l b e c a u s e i t i s c e n tr a l t o h e r e v i d e n c e .

L e t u s ju s t p l a c e t h a t

e v i d e n c e p r o p e r ly in i ts c o n t e x t .
T h e r e w a s a v is i t to C h in a a t a s t a g e a t w h ic h y o u w e r e
present. She says that there was a request that she meet with you and

Page 54 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
t h a t s h e r e f u s e d . D o y o u r e c a l l a n y t h i n g a b o u t th a t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t it .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

R i g h t.

S h e s a y s th a t a n o th e r

r e a s o n fo r h e r r e m o v a l a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e w a s
t h a t s h e r e fu s e d to a s s is t i n t h e c lo s u r e o f t h e S A A , S o u t h A fr ic a n
A ir w a y s r o u t e to I n d i a . D o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t th a t is s u e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No I know nothing about that.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

R ig h t . S h e d o e s s a y t h a t s h e w a s

t a k e n t o t a s k in r e l a ti o n to t h e C h i n a tr i p b e c a u s e Tr a n s n e t a c tu a lly
10

p a i d f o r t h a t v is i t a n d s h e w a s t a k e n t o ta s k f o r th a t?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W h o p a i d fo r ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Tr a n s n e t.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Tr a n s n e t ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s . P a id – d o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g
a b o u t t h a t is s u e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No I know nothing about that.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll w o u ld t h a t n o t b e a P a r l ia m e n t a r y is s u e i n t h e

N a t io n a l A s s e m b l y ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s w e ll i t m a y b e p u t t h a t t h a t w a s
20

the real reason and that is why I am …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o w h a t I a m s a y in g is t h e a c ti o n …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I t i s a P a r l i a m e n t a r y is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a w h ic h w o u l d n o t in v o l v e t h e P r e s i d e n c y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

N o , n o b u t in fa ir n e s s t o t h e

P r e s i d e n t I f e lt i t i n o r d e r to r e m i n d h i m t h a t m a n y p e o p le s a y t h a t t h a t

Page 55 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
was the reason and not the other reasons. Then she talks at paragraph
2 6 a n d fo ll o w i n g M r Zu m a o f t h e v is it t o C h i n a . A n d s h e s a id t h a t s h e
tr a v e l le d t o C h i n a in h e r c a p a c i ty a s P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e C h a i r o f
P u b l ic E n t e r p r i s e s . D o y o u y o u r s e l f r e c a ll t h a t v is it t o C h i n a ? I t w a s in
a n d a b o u t A u g u s t 2 0 1 0 I k n o w t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n p le n ty o f v i s i ts a n d
it is …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l s h o u ld y o u n o t j u s t g iv e h i m m o r e d e ta il s .

I

t h i n k i t w a s s a i d i t w a s a s ta t e v is i t b u t th e w a y y o u p u t i t i t is l ik e
w h e t h e r h e r e c a ll s Ms M e n t o r ’s v is i t t o C h i n a .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Ye s i t w a s a s t a t e v is i t a n d i n f a c t

t h e r e w a s a s t a t e b a n q u e t a c c o r d in g to h e r e v id e n c e i n C h i n a i n A u g u s t
2010.

A l a r g e c o n ti n g e n t o f S o u th A fr ic a n o ff ic i a ls , P a r l ia m e n t a r i a n s ,

government

o ff ic ia ls ,

e x e c u t iv e

members

a p p a r e n t ly

i n te n d e d

–

a tt e n d e d i n c l u d i n g s h e s a y s t h e G u p t a ’s . A n d s h e s a i d a t t h a t v i s i t t h e
G u p t a ’s p l a y e d a p r o m i n e n t r o l e o r a n o r g a n is a t i o n a l r o le i n t h e v is i t .
D o y o u r e c a l l a n y t h i n g o f th a t n a t u r e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No I do not.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : O k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I do not.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e le t u s s a y – I a m s o r r y – d o y o u r e c a l l a
s t a te v is i t t h a t m a y h a v e m a d e t o C h in a w a s it 2 0 11 ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : 2 0 1 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: 2010.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I n o r a b o u t A u g u s t 2 0 1 0 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

W e ll I h a v e g o n e t o C h i n a

several times.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I m ig h t h a v e t o l o o k a t m y

records.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m i g h t n o t r e c a ll t h a t in t h a t y e a r.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a I a m n o t r e c a l li n g i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a d o n e o r n o t b u t y o u h a v e h a d a f e w o f t h e m .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A f e w s t a t e v i s i ts ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Ja because I have gone to

China a number of times.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: If I do not check my records.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :

I w i ll n o t b e a b l e t o b e e x a c t

a n d g iv e t h e e x a c t a n s w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d b e a b le t o s a y. Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :
20

W o u l d y o u r e c a ll a n y s t a t e v is i t a t

w h ic h th e G u p t a ’s w e r e p r e s e n t a n d p l a y e d a n y r o le w h a t s o e v e r ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHL EKISA ZUMA: No I do not. Though never – I
d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e m i n a n y s ta t e v i s i t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

W o u l d th a t h a v e h a p p e n e d to y o u r

k n o w l e d g e g i v e n y o u r k n o w le d g e o f th e G u p ta ’s a n d s t a t e v is i t s a n d t h e
lik e ?

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

No I say – no I have just

a n s w e r e d t o s a y I d o n o t r e m e m b e r. T h e m b e i n g a p a r t o f o u r v is i t a t
b e i n g ta k e n p r o m i n e n t r o l e , w h a t w o u l d t h e y b e d o i n g b e c a u s e t h e y
h a v e g o t n o th in g t o d o w i th t h e v is i t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n y o u h a v e a s ta t e v is it w o u ld t h e P r e s i d e n t n o t
n o r m a l ly in v i t e S o u th A f r ic a n b u s i n e s s p e o p le t o jo i n fo r p u r p o s e s o f
p r o m o ti n g tr a d e w it h th e c o u n tr y t o w h ic h t h e v is i t is in t e n d e d ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s th a t h a p p e n s b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: That happens.
10

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o o n e o f th o s e b u s in e s s

p e o p l e w o u l d p l a y a p r o m i n e n t r o l e i n th e v is it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
people.

They meet other business

In fa c t if y o u g o lik e t h a t o n ly o n c e y o u g o t o a d d r e s s t h e m

t o g e th e r w i t h th e Pr e s i d e n t o f t h a t c o u n tr y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Yo u c o m e in , y o u a d d r e s s , y o u
g o a w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Yo u d o n o t p a r t ic i p a te i n t h e

a c ti v i ti e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e s t a t e v is it .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A l l t h e s t a te v is i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y m e e t t h e ir c o u n t e r p a r t s ’ .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d i s c u s s b u s in e s s b u t th e y d o n o t b e c o m e p a r t o f
t h e s t a te a c t iv i t ie s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o t a t a l l . N o t a t a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

A lr i g h t .

S h e a l s o s a i d in h e r

s t a te m e n t M r Zu m a t h a t o n t h e e v e n in g o f th e s t a te b a n q u e t i n C h i n a
s h e w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y a g e n tl e m a n w h o t o l d h e r t h a t y o u w is h e d t o
10

m e e t w i t h h e r a t t h e C h i n e s e P r e s i d e n t ia l G u e s t h o u s e . D o y o u h a v e
a n y c o m m e n t o r r e c o ll e c ti o n i n r e g a r d to t h a t?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o . N o t h i n g o f th a t n a t u r e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S h e o f c o u r s e a s s u m e d t h a t t h e m a n
w h o s p o k e t o h e r w a s o n e o f t h e G u p ta b r o t h e r s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : S h e a s s u m e s th a t w e l l i t is h e r
who saw the person.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S h e a s s u m e d th a t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t it .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

20

T h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 5 9 i f y o u w o u ld

t u r n t o t h a t p le a s e M r Z u m a .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Pa ge 59?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : 5 9 – p a r a g r a p h 5 9 I a m s o r r y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Paragraph 59.

T h e fir s t th i n g

s h e s a y s th e r e is t h a t s h e h a d b e e n tr y i n g f o r s o m e t i m e t o m e e t w i t h
y o u r e g a r d i n g th e P e b b l e B e d M o d u l a r R e a c ti o n a m o n g s t o th e r t h in g s .

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
D o y o u k n o w a n y t h in g a b o u t h e r a t t e m p ts t o m e e t w i th y o u a b o u t th a t
is s u e ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o . N o t h i n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S h e s a y s t o o th a t s h e c o m m u n i c a t e
w i t h M s L a k e la K a u n d a w h o a t t h e ti m e s h e t h o u g h t w a s y o u r p e r s o n a l
a s s is t a n t in o r d e r t o s e c u r e s u c h a m e e ti n g . I f w e c o u l d ta k e t h a t s t e p
b y s t e p . D i d Ms K a u n d a – Ms K a u n d a w o r k in y o u r o ffic e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Ja Ms Kaunda worked in my

o ffic e .
10

ADV

PA U L

JOSEPH

P R E TO R I U S :

Ye s .

And

who

–

whose

r e s p o n s i b i li ty w o u ld i t h a v e b e e n t o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts t o m e e t w i t h
you?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Not Kaunda.

Kaunda had

n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h th a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o t K a u n d a .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :

T h e r e a r e o t h e r o ff ic i a ls w h o

w e r e d e a li n g w i th t h o s e k i n d o f a r r a n g e m e n ts n o t K a u n d a .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S :

Right.

She says that one evening

o n a S u n d a y i n o r a r o u n d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d i n f a ir n e s s to th a t v e r s i o n
20

changed to September I think or times other than October 2010 she
s a i d s h e r e c e iv e d a t e l e p h o n e fr o m M s K a u n d a t o s a y t h a t y o u c o u ld
s e e h e r t h e f o l lo w i n g d a y. D o y o u r e c a l l a n y t h i n g o f t h a t?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n s e c o n d M r Pr e t o r i u s . L e r a t o . T h a n k y o u .

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I n a n y e v e n t w h a t s h e t h e n s a i d i n
h e r e v id e n c e a n d I a m m o v i n g t o p a r a g r a p h 6 3 .

She said that she

w o u ld b e m e t a t t h e a ir p o r t i n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d ta k e n t o a p la c e w h e r e
s h e w o u ld m e e t w i th y o u . I u n d e r s ta n d fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d i s t h a t
y o u d o n o t r e c a l l a n y in t e r a c ti o n w i th M s K a u n d a a t a ll .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S: S o t h e d e t a ils o f t h a t in t e r a c ti o n i s
not necessary to deal with.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Not at all.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s – a n d s o r r y I m ig h t h a v e m a d e
a n e r r o r. N o i n te r a c t i o n w i t h M s M e n t o r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o n o t a t a ll .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Ye s .

S h e th e n s a y s t h a t s h e w a s

p ic k e d u p a t t h e a i r p o r t , t a k e n t o a c e r t a i n b u s in e s s p r e m is e s S a h a r a
C o m p u t e r s a n d th e n t a k e n t o w h a t h a s b e c o m e k n o w n a t t h e S a x o n w o l d
compound.

S h e s a y s th e r e th a t i n t h e c o u r s e o f e v e n ts th a t m o r n i n g

A j a y G u p t a t o l d h e r t h a t y o u k n e w o f t h i s m e e ti n g b u t I t a k e i t t h a t
c o n s i s te n t w i t h y o u r p r e v i o u s a n s w e r s t h a t is n o t a m a t te r th a t y o u c a n
comment on.
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I know nothing.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Va r i o u s is s u e s th e n w e r e d is c u s s e d
in t h a t m e e ti n g b u t a t a s ta g e s h e s a y s fir s tly t h a t t h e r e w o u ld b e a
c a b i n e t r e s h u ff l e in th e n e x t w e e k o r s o .

Do you know of a cabinet

r e s h u ffl e in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 0 f o r e x a m p le a n d i f I c o u ld h e lp y o u t h e r e t h e
c a b i n e t r e s h u ffl e w h e r e M in is t e r G i g a b a w a s a p p o in t e d t o r e p l a c e

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M i n is t e r H o g a n . T h a t h a p p e n e d a r o u n d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 0 a s w e u n d e r s ta n d
it .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a t h e r e w a s a r e s h u ffl e I t h i n k .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

In t e r m s o f r e s h u ff l e t h a t

h a p p e n s r e g u l a r l y w h e n i t is t o h a p p e n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I f s h e i s t o b e l i e v e – b e b e li e v e d a t
a l l a n d I q u a l i fy th a t w h a t I a m t o p u t to y o u o n th a t b a s is . I t a p p e a r s
t h a t A j a y G u p t a w o u l d h a v e k n o w n o f a c a b i n e t r e s h u ffl e t o o c c u r a t t h e
10

e n d o f O c t o b e r. N o w i n t h a t r e g a r d y o u d id s a y e a r l i e r th a t th e r e i s a
c o n s u l t a ti o n p r o c e s s t h a t h a p p e n s b e f o r e a c a b i n e t r e s h u ff le . C o u l d
s o m e o n e lik e A ja y G u p t a h a v e k n o w n o f s u c h a r e s h u ffl e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : F r o m y o u r o w n k n o w l e d g e .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No. Ajay Gupta was not part of
Government.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o I u n d e r s ta n d .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W a s n o t e v e n p a r t o f th e p e o p le
w h o n o r m a l ly g e t c o n s u l t e d .

20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S o y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h a t e v i d e n c e is
n o t t h a t h e m i g h t h a v e k n o w n b u t t h a t s i m p ly th e p r o b a b il it i e s a r e t h a t
h e d i d n o t k n o w ? As I u n d e r s t a n d .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: He should not have known.
CHAIRPERSON:

I – I g u e s s m a y b e l e t u s a s k i t t h is w a y.

Before a

r e s h u ffl e w o u l d h a p p e n w o u l d th e r e b e p e o p le w i t h w h o m y o u w o u l d

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
h a v e c o n s u l t a ti o n t h a t w o u l d k n o w b e f o r e i t h a p p e n s ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s d e f in i te ly. I c o n s u l t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ve r y s e le c t e d a f e w p e o p le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I always consult.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

A t n o s t a g e I c o u ld d o t h e

r e s h u ffl e w i th o u t p e o p le k n o w i n g w h o a r e s u p p o s e d t o k n o w.
10

For

e x a m p l e i t w o u ld b e t h e t o p s ix f o r e x a m p l e w o u ld h a v e t o k n o w w h a t I
am doing.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e to p s ix o f A N C ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : To p s ix o f t h e A N C , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A s w e ll a s if i t is – a ll o f i t a s
w e ll a s t h e a l li a n c e t o p s i x o r f iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Those

are

the

p e o p le

we

consult with.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

So

it

w o u ld

not

be

the

k n o w l e d g e t h a t is o n m e o n l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

T h e r e w o u ld b e th o s e k i n d o f

in d i v i d u a ls w h o w o u l d k n o w.

Page 63 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I g u e s s th a t t h e b e s t y o u c a n s a y i t t h a t y o u d i d
n o t te ll h i m o r y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e t o l d h i m b u t y o u c a n n o t k n o w w h a t
a n y o n e e ls e w h o m ig h t h a v e k n o w n m i g h t h a v e d o n e ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s d e f in i te ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Ajay Gupta

a c c o r d in g

to

the

s t a te m e n t a t l e a s t – t h e w r i t t e n s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u h a v e b e f o r e y o u –
s a i d t o h e r t w o t h in g s a n d I a m r e f e r r i n g t o p a r a g r a p h 9 1 if y o u w a n t t o
g o t h e r e M r Zu m a .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Paragraph 91.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : H e s a i d :
“ H e w o u l d p u t i n a w o r d w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t fo r m e . ”
And then he said:
“ W e u s u a l ly d o . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h a t p a g e ? W h a t p a r a g r a p h ?
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : P a r a g r a p h 9 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H u h - u h .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S o w h a t s h e s a id t h a t M s M e n to r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Is a n d p e r h a p s fo r t h e s a k e o f

accuracy I should read paragraph 90 …

Page 64 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

B e c a u s e th e s t a t u s o f t h e o ff e r

maybe debated. Paragraph 90 she said:
“ I m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r … ”
A n d s h e i s n o w r e f e r r in g to t h e d i s c u s s i o n b e t w e e n h e r s e l f
and Mr Ajay Gupta.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Huh-uh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

“ I m m e d i a t e ly

a f te r

his

s t a te m e n ts a b o u t S A A’s I n d i a r o u te A ja y G u p t a t h e n
very

10

c a s u a l ly

and

much

to

my

a s to n is h m e n t ,

p r o c e e d e d to o ffe r m e th e p o s i ti o n o f M in is te r o f
P u b l ic E n t e r p r is e s i f I w o u l d a g r e e t o f a c ili t a te th e
c lo s u r e

of

S A A’s

India

route

when

I

became

M i n is t e r. A j a y G u p t a s a i d th e r e w o u l d b e a c a b i n e t
r e s h u ffl e i n t h e n e x t w e e k o r s o a n d h e s a id h e h a d
a n o ff e r fo r m e .

He said that I could be the next

M i n is t e r o f P u b li c E n t e r p r is e s i f I a g r e e t o f a c il it a t e
t h e c l o s u r e o f th e r o u t e . ”
B u t t h e i m p o r t o f h e r s t a te m e n t is q u a l if i e d a n d in f a ir n e s s
20

t h a t q u a l i fic a ti o n s h o u l d b e p u t to y o u . S h e g o e s o n i n p a r a g r a p h 9 1 t o
say:
“ I t is a n u n d e r s t a te m e n t to s a y th a t I w a s s h o c k e d
b y th e o ffe r.

I was stunned and wondered how

A j a y G u p t a h a d s o m u c h p o w e r. I r e s p o n d e d f ir s tl y
b y i n f o r m i n g h i m t h a t t h e S A A s ta t is ti c s h o w e d t h a t

Page 65 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
t h e f li g h t t o In d ia w a s d o i n g v e r y w e ll . S e c o n d ly I
a s k e d h o w h e c o u l d b e i n a p o s i ti o n to o ff e r m e a
p o s i ti o n a s a M i n is te r.

A ja y G u p t a s a i d h e w o u l d

put in a word for the President for me.

After the

s t a te m e n t th e r e w a s s il e n c e in th e r o o m a f t e r w h i c h
A j a y s t a te d : “ W e u s u a ll y d o ” . I p e r c e iv e d h is t o n e
t o b e b o a s tf u l . I t h e n a s k e d h i m w h o “ w e ” w a s b u t
he did not respond.”
S o a l t h o u g h s h e c o n c l u d e s t h a t a n o ff e r w a s m a d e i t s e e m s
10

t h a t w h a t s h e d o e s s a y is th a t A j a y G u p ta s a i d h e w o u l d p u t in a w o r d
w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t f o r m e . I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r th a t w a s a f ir m o ff e r
o r n o t b u t th e q u e s ti o n t h e n a r is e s a b o u t w h a t s h e s a y s .

Is that

A j a y G u p t a i n f o r m e d h e r th a t h e h a d c o m m u n i c a t io n s w i t h y o u i n w h i c h
h e w o u l d s u g g e s t w h o s h o u l d b e a p p o i n t e d a s a M i n i s te r. S o t h a t is t h e
i m p o r t o f h e r e v id e n c e . R a t h e r …
( Ba c k g r o u n d n o i s e )
CHAIRPERSON: I think I pressed the wrong one.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

M a y I c o n c l u d e th e q u e s t i o n o r d o

y o u w a n t t o i n te r r u p t C h a ir ?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

N o I w a n t e d t o s a y I t h i n k y o u r – w h a t y o u p u t to

M r Zu m a a s t h e e s s e n c e o f w h a t M s M e n to r i s s a y in g m i g h t n o t b e
a c c u r a te . M y u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t w h a t y o u r e a d s a y s M s M e n t o r s a y s
M r G u p t a s a i d t o h e r h e w o u l d p u t i n a w o r d f o r h e r t o th e Pr e s i d e n t f o r
h e r t o g e t t h e m in is t e r i a l p o s i ti o n b u t y o u s a i d h e – s h e s a id t h e r e w a s
c o m m u n ic a ti o n

which

might

suggest

Page 66 of 107

th e r e

had

been

prior

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
c o m m u n ic a ti o n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w i f t h a t i s t h e r e b u t t h a t is w h a t I h e a r d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o . L e t m e m a k e i t c le a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :
says two things.

I n fa i r n e s s t o a l l c o n c e r n e d s h e

I n p a r a g r a p h 9 0 s h e s a i d h e m a d e m e a n o ff e r.

A j a y G u p t a m a d e m e a n o ffe r o f a p r e s i d e n ti a l p o s i ti o n . S h e q u a l if i e s
t h is s o m e w h a t in h e r n e x t p a r a g r a p h t o s a y :
10

“ H e w o u l d p u t i n a w o r d w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t fo r m e . ”
S o h e r e v i d e n c e is t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t A ja y G u p t a s a id t h a t h e
w o u ld s u g g e s t t o y o u o r a d v ic e o r t r y t o p e r s u a d e o r h o w e v e r
c o m m u n ic a te w i th y o u i n r e l a t io n t o h e r f u tu r e a p p o in t m e n t a s a
M i n is t e r o f P u b lic E n te r p r is e s . S o w h a t I a m a t t e m p ti n g to p u t t o y o u is
t h e i m p o r t o f t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t A j a y G u p t a s a i d h e w o u ld p u t i n a w o r d
w i t h y o u r s e l f i n h e r f a v o u r. A n y r e s p o n s e t o t h a t? Is t h a t c le a r ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

I d o n o t k n o w w h a t c o u ld m y

r e s p o n s e – b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e d i s c u s s in g t w o o f th e m .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s .
20

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I h a d n o t h in g to d o w i th it .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o I u n d e r s ta n d .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e l y n o th in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

I – I t h i n k m a y b e t h e q u e s t io n s h o u ld b e w a s y o u r

r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h Mr A j a y G u p t a t o y o u r k n o w le d g e s u c h t h a t h e c o u l d
m a k e s u c h s u g g e s t io n s t o y o u a s to w h o s h o u ld b e a p p o in t e d M i n is te r ?

Page 67 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o n o t a t a l l . H e h a d n o th in g t o
d o w i t h w h a t h a p p e n s in t h e – i n – in G o v e r n m e n t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S o f o r – f o r c l a r i ty s a k e …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

T h e q u e s ti o n p u t to y o u is n o t t o

comment on what was said between them and to interpret the
c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t h a p p e n e d b e t w e e n th e m …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Huh-uh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :
10

B u t m e r e ly t o r a is e th e f a c t u a l

q u e s t io n a r i s i n g o u t o f th a t .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Huh-uh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

That Mr Gupta appeared according

t o M s M e n to r t o b e o f t h e o p i n i o n t h a t h e c o u l d t a lk t o y o u a b o u t
m i n is t e r ia l a p p o i n t m e n t s . T h a t is t h e q u e s ti o n th a t h a s b e e n r e p h r a s e d
b y t h e C h a ir a n d i s th a t c o r r e c t o r n o t c o r r e c t ?

Yo u h a v e a n

o p p o r t u n i ty to d e a l w i th t h a t a l le g a ti o n .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

No.

That is why I am saying

d is c u s s in g t w o o f t h e m a b o u t e i t h e r o ff e r in g w h a t e v e r.

O t h e r o n e is

b e i n g s u r p r is e d . I a m n o t th e r e . I d o n o t k n o w w h y th e y r e a c h e d th a t
20

k in d o f a d is c u s s io n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

T h e n I h a v e n o t m a d e m y s e lf c le a r

a n d p e r h a p s th e C h a i r n e e d s t o r e p h r a s e h is q u e s ti o n a s w e l l .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

T h e q u e s ti o n i s n o t w h a t h a p p e n e d

…

Page 68 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

O r w h a t i s i n t e r p r e te d a b o u t a

c o n v e r s a ti o n a t w h ic h y o u w e r e n o t …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Pr e s e n t .

Th e q u e s ti o n is d id

M r G u p t a e v e r s p e a k t o y o u a b o u t a n a p p o in t m e n t i n to a m i n i s te r i a l
p o s i ti o n .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o n e v e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S h e t h e n c o n ti n u e s i n h e r s t a te m e n t
10

t o s a y t h a t a t t h a t s t a g e s h e b e c a m e a n g r y, b e g a n t o s p e a k v e r y lo u d ly
and she had become what she refers to as confrontational and I am
r e fe r r i n g t o p a r a g r a p h 9 2 a n d i t w a s a t t h a t m o m e n t s h e s a y s t h a t y o u
e n t e r e d t h e r o o m a n d t h a t s h e i m m e d i a te l y i n f o r m e d y o u o f t h e “ o ff e r ”
t h a t h a d b e e n m a d e a n d t h a t y o u d id n o t r e a c t t o th a t c o m m u n ic a ti o n
b u t tr ie d to c a l m h e r d o w n .
T h a t is t h e e s s e n c e o f w h a t s h e s a y s in t h e r e m a i n i n g
paragraphs. I am not sure …
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o t h e r e is n o th i n g o f t h a t

n a t u r e . I k n o w n o th in g o f – o f e n te r i n g s o m e r o o m .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Have you ever been at the Gupta residence at the

s a m e ti m e a s h e r ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
CHAIRPERSON: No.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o – d o y o u r e c a ll w h o M s M e n t o r is ?

Page 69 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o r e c a l l h e r ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I d o r e c a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I a m a s k in g …
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s I r e c a ll h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I a m a s k i n g b e c a u s e I t h in k a t a c e r ta in s t a g e
t h e r e w a s – s e e ms t o h a v e b e s o m e t h i n g fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n c y th a t
s u g g e s t e d t h a t a t th a t ti m e y o u d i d n o t r e c a l l w h o s h e w a s . S o th a t is
why I am asking but you say you do recall her?
10

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I d o r e c a l l h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o r e c a ll h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : W e l l p e r h a p s a g a i n to a ff o r d y o u a n
o p p o r t u n i ty to r e s p o n d o n p a g e 5 4 a n d C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u m o v i n g a w a y f r o m t h a t in c i d e n t ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o I a m g o in g e x a c tl y t o th a t p o in t .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A g a in M P M 5 o n p a g e 5 4 is i ll e g i b l e .

20

S o i t is n o t o f a n y u s e t o a n y b o d y b u t I d o w a n t t o r e f e r t o a b e t t e r
v e r s i o n o f t h a t d o c u m e n t. A m o r e d ir e c t r o u te t h is t i m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u g o t a c l e a r e r c o p y f o r c o u n s e l fo r M r Z u m a ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a y t h a t is a b e t te r v e r s i o n o f th e d o c u m e n t a t

page 54?

Page 70 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I t m a y b e th a t I s h o u l d a ffo r d t i m e to
c o n s u l t . I t is 1 o ’ c lo c k . I d o n o t k n o w w h e n y o u i n t e n d ta k i n g t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W e c a n ta k e t h e a d j o u r n m e n t n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : L o n g a d j o u r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t – le t u s ta k e t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

And

then

the

matter

can

be

d is c u s s e d i n t h e m e a n w h il e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n – y o u c a n d is c u s s t h e m a t te r j a . W e w il l ta k e
t h e s h o r t – th e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t n o w a n d r e s u m e a t 2 o ’ c l o c k .
10

We

adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u r e a d y Mr P r e t o r i u s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr Z u m a

b e f o r e t h e lo n g a d j o u r n m e n t y o u a n d y o u r r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s w e r e h a n d e d
a c o p y o f a m e d i a s t a t e m e n t i n m o r e le g i b l e f o r m t h a t a p p e a r e d in t h e
b u n d l e , i t ’s a p p a r e n t fr o m t h e d o c u m e n t a t l e a s t , t h a t a m e d i a
s t a te m e n t w a s is s u e d b y th e Pr e s i d e n c y o n t h e 1 5 t h o f M a c h 2 0 1 6 a n d
20

m a y I a s k w h o is B o n g a n i M a jo l a o r w h o w a s h e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

H e w a s o n e o f th e s ta ff i n t h e

P r e s i d e n c y d e a l in g w i t h c o m m u n i c a t io n s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e s t a t e m e n t r e a d s , a n d i t ’s a t
p a g e 5 5 – s o r r y p a g e 5 4 , th is d o c u m e n t w h ic h is a t p a g e 5 4 w h ic h is
ill e g i b l e C h a ir w i ll b e r e p la c e d b y t h e d o c u m e n t n o w h a n d e d t o y o u ,

Page 71 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
h e a d e d , s o c i a l m e d i a c o m m e n t b y f o r m e r m e m b e r o f P a r li a m e n t , i f I
m a y r e a d i t t o y o u s ir, i t r e a d s ,
“The

Pr e s id e n c y

has

received

media

e n q u ir i e s

about

a

r e p o r t e d c o m m e n t o n s o c i a l m e d i a b y fo r m e r A N C m e m b e r o f
P a r li a m e n t M s Vy tji e M e n t o r, t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h r e a d s ,
P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Zu m a h a s n o r e c o l le c ti o n o f M s M e n t o r, h e is
t h e r e f o r e u n a b le t o c o m m e n t o n a n y a l l e g e d i n c id e n t i n h e r
career”,
D o y o u k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t t h is s ta t e m e n t b e i n g is s u e d o n
10

your behalf?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

Ye s I d o , m y o ffi c e c a m e to

c h e c k a f te r g e t ti n g t h e i n fo r m a t i o n fr o m t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n s w h e t h e r I
k n o w a n y t h in g , a t t h a t t i m e I m u s t b e h o n e s t, I h a d n o r e c o l l e c ti o n o f
t h is n a m e , t o ta lly I g a v e a v e r y h o n e s t a n s w e r I ’v e n e v e r – I d o n ’ t k n o w
w h o is th is , o n ly a f t e r s o m e ti m e w h e n I s a w h e r p ic t u r e I r e a l is e d i t is
a p e r s o n I k n o w, I c o u l d n ’ t p u t th e n a m e t o th e fa c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e f a c e ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o d o I h a v e i t c o r r e c t, y o u d o ,
20

h a v i n g b e e n r e m i n d e d o f h o w – w h a t s h e l o o k e d l ik e h a v e a r e c o l le c t i o n
o f M s M e n to r ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s a b s o lu t e l y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d in s o f a r a s th is p a r t ic u l a r

s u g g e s t s , o th e r w is e t h e s ta t e m e n t is in c o r r e c t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C H A I R P E R S O N : I’ m s o r r y I d i d n ’ t h e a r, w a s th e q u e s t i o n w h e t h e r t h e
s t a te m e n t a t p a g e 5 4 is i n c o r r e c t , w a s t h a t th e q u e s t io n ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e n ’t t h e tw o o f y o u s p e a k i n g a t c r o s s - p u r p o s e s , t h e
s t a te m e n t s a y s - d o e s n ’ t th e s t a te m e n t s a y t h a t h e h a d n o r e c o l le c ti o n
o f w h o M s M e n to r w a s ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
President
10

Jacob

Zuma

has

no

C h a ir t h e s t a t e m e n t s a y s

r e c o ll e c ti o n

of

Ms

M e n to r,

the

e x p l a n a t io n I u n d e r s ta n d it to b e , is t h a t a t t h a t ti m e h e h a d n o
r e c o l l e c ti o n

but

later

on

r e c o g n is i n g

her

face,

he

did

have

a

r e c o l l e c ti o n a n d t h a t ’s w h y I q u a l if i e d t h e q u e s t io n i n t h e m a n n e r I d i d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Well

might not have understood but I understood

y o u r q u e s t i o n t o b e a s k in g h i m w h e t h e r, t h e s ta t e m e n t a t p a g e 5 4 o r
s u g g e s t in g t h a t t h e s t a t e m e n t a t p a g e 5 4 i s i n c o r r e c t a n d w i t h h i m
a g r e e i n g w h e r e a s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g is th a t th e s t a t e m e n t a t p a g e 5 4 i s
c o r r e c t , a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t h e is s a y i n g in s o f a r a s h e h a d n o
r e c o l l e c ti o n o f w h o M s M e n t o r w a s b u t w h e n h e s u b s e q u e n t ly s a w t h e
p ic t u r e , h e r e a l is e d t h a t it w a s s o m e b o d y th a t h e k n e w, t h a t ’s m y
20

u n d e r s t a n d in g , I m a y b e w r o n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : I t’s e q u a l ly c o r r e c t , I h e a r w h a t
y o u ’r e s a y i n g t h a t ’s w h a t I u n d e r s to o d t h e p o s i t io n t o b e a n d I t h i n k
w h a t Mr Z u m a u n d e r s ta n d s t h e p o s it i o n t o b e , I t h i n k w e ’r e a l l i n
a g r e e m e n t , b u t t h e p o in t is th a t i n s o fa r a s th e s t a te m e n t w h ic h s e e k e d
t o s u g g e s t t h a t h e n e v e r h a s h a d a n y r e c o l l e c ti o n o f h e r, i t w o u l d b e

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
in c o r r e c t , b u t i t d o e s n ’ t s u g g e s t th a t , i f th e t e n s e i s c o r r e c t, P r e s i d e n t
J a c o b Zu m a h a s n o r e c o l l e c ti o n o n th e 1 5 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a s a t th a t t i m e ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s s o I d o n ’ t t h i n k th e r e ’s

a n y … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r Z u m a y o u u n d e r s t a n d ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I understand.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :
10

Fo r c o m p l e t e n e s s o f t h e r e c o r d

M s M e n t o r d i d r e s p o n d t o th a t Pr e s id e n ti a l s t a te m e n t o r s ta t e m e n t
is s u e d o n b e h a l f o f o r b y th e Pr e s i d e n c y i n N P M 6 w h ic h is a t p a g e 5 5 .
H a v e y o u a c l e a r e r c o p y o f N P M 6 C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I h a v e a v e r y u n c l e a r c o p y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Do you have a copy of a clear

N P M 6 , t h e r e - ty p e d n o te 6 ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
MR

PA U L

JOSEPH

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

It

was

g iv e n

to

your

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o M r P r e t o r iu s I t h i n k y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t p a g e
5 5 a n d h e ’s s a y s p a g e 5 5 , y o u a r e o n th e s a m e p a g e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

L i t e r a l ly t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I

t h o u g h t h e s a id N P M 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I t h in k h e s a i d p a g e 5 5 .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O h in t h e – o h i t s p a g e 5 5 , t h e

Page 74 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
red?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e r e d o n e j a , I t h i n k y o u h a v e g o t t h e r ig h t o n e .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o w th a t i s i n v e r y s m a l l p r i n t i t
b e i n g a n e x t r a c t fr o m s o c i a l m e d i a , h a v e y o u b e e n g iv e n b y y o u r l e g a l
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s , a c l e a r e r c o p y, i t w a s g i v e n t o th e m b e f o r e th e l o n g
a d j o u r n m e n t , h a s it b e e n g iv e n t o y o u ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e in fr o n t o f y o u … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th e s m a ll o n e ?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o t h e o n e a t p a g e 5 5 is i t l e g i b l e , c a n y o u r e a d
it ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o t h is o n e is s m a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It ’s s m a l l?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, h a v e y o u g o t a c o p y … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir i t ’s a f te r l u n c h , i t ’s b e e n a
lo n g d a y, l e t ’s ta k e it s l o w ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got a copy?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

20

W h a t w e h a v e d o n e is w e ’ v e

m a d e a c le a r e r c o p y o f p a g e 5 5 in a te x t t h a t i s l e g i b l e , i t w a s h a n d e d
t o m y le a r n e d fr ie n d s b e f o r e t h e l o n g a d j o u r n m e n t a n d I h a d h o p e d t h a t
h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n g i v e n a c o p y, b u t I ’ m n o w a s k in g w h e t h e r h e ’s h a d
a n o p p o r t u n i ty to r e a d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a v e y o u g o t a s p a r e c o p y, I t h i n k ju s t – h a v e y o u g o t
a n o t h e r s p a r e c o p y o r c a n y o u d e fe r t h e q u e s ti o n ?

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o lo o k , C h a ir, i f I m a y j u s t s t a y
in c o n tr o l o f t h i s p r o c e s s , a ll I ’ m a s k i n g M r Zu m a is , d i d y o u r l e g a l
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s g iv e y o u a c l e a r e r c o p y o f p a g e 5 5 i n t h e l o n g
adjournment?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o , th e o n e … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t s o w e m u s t g iv e i t t o y o u
now?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s b e c a u s e th e p r i n t is s m a ll e r
there.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir I w o u ld h a v e h o p e d t h a t

t h e d o c u m e n t th a t I g a v e t o M r Zu m a ’s r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s w o u l d h a v e
b e e n d is c u s s e d w i th h i m , t h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f g iv i n g i t , i t s e e m s i t
w a s n ’ t s o l e t ’s s ta r t a g a in .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , h a n g o n , I t h i n k Mr M a s u k u w a n ts t o s a y

something.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, m y l e a r n e d fr i e n d f o r t h e

e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s , M s S e p t e m b e r, d u r in g l u n c h g a v e m e a s i n g l e c o p y
w h ic h i s a c o p y th a t w e p u t in t h e fi l e t o g e t h e r, I d i d n o t u n d e r s ta n d i t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e r e ’s n o i n d ic a ti o n th a t … ( i n te r v e n t io n .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : T h a t w e n e e d e d to g i v e i t t o … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G i v e it t o t h e w i tn e s s .
M R Z U M A’ S R E P R E S E N TAT I V E : T h e w i t n e s s fo r p u r p o s e s o f w h a t m y
le a r n e d fr i e n d s u g g e s ts w e s h o u l d d o .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no I understand.

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t w a s c l e a r C h a ir, I d o n ’ t w a n t
t h e r e t o b e a n y a r g u m e n t a b o u t tr iv ia li t i e s o r th e s e a r g u m e n ts t o b e
b l o w n u p , e v e r y b o d y k n e w w e w e r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h i t … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e a r e t w o w a y s o f d e a li n g w it h t h is , o n e is f o r

y o u t o a s k s o m e o n e t o g e t a n o th e r c o p y o r … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e ’v e g o t c o p i e s C h a ir, I c a n

h a n d t h e m … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ’v e g o t c o p i e s , o k a y t h e w it n e s s m u s t b e g i v e n th e
c o p y, L o r a t to .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d d o y o u h a v e a c o p y C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON: I don’t have – thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Just for the record if a copy is

g iv e n t o m y le a r n e d fr ie n d d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f e v i d e n c e th e c l e a r
in t e n t io n is t h a t t h e c o p y is g iv e n s o t h a t t h e w it n e s s c a n b e g iv e n a n
o p p o r t u n i ty t o b e r e c o g n is e d in r e la t io n t o i t , a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , y o u
h a v e i t – n o t h a t ’s w h a t I s a i d b e f o r e t h e l o n g a d j o u r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o M r P r e to r i u s I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h a t ’s f a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I s a id it b e f o r e t h e l o n g

adjournment.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , Mr M a s u k u h a s s a i d h e w a s g iv e n a c o p y, n o t
by you, but by Ms September…(intervention).
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s o n m y i n s tr u c t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u d o n ’t k n o w w h a t t r a n s p ir e d b e tw e e n t h e t w o o f

t h e m , M r M a s u k u h a s s a i d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o in d i c a t io n t h a t , th a t w a s
m e a n t f o r t h e w i t n e s s , i t’s fa ir f o r – it w o u ld h a v e b e e n f a ir f o r t h e m t o

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
t h i n k y o u m i g h t h a v e m a d e o th e r p r o v i s i o n s f o r th e w i t n e s s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e t h a t a s i t m a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t ’s m o v e o n .
ADV

PA U L

JOSEPH

PRETORIUS

SC:

L e t ’s

move

one,

l e t’s

not…(intervention).
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’v e g o t – t h e o n e I h a v e h e r e th a t I ’v e b e e n g iv e n

n o w is a p a g e t h a t h a s g o t tw o p a r a g r a p h s b u t t h e o n e th a t it is
s u p p o s e d to b e a r e p la c e m e n t o f o r a c l e a r e r v e r s i o n o f h a s g o t o n e
la r g e p a r a g r a p h a n d a b o u t th r e e li n e s b e f o r e .
10

D o e s th e o n e , th e

c le a r e r v e r s i o n , is th e c le a r e r v e r s i o n e x a c t ly th e s a m e a s th e i ll e g i b l e
version.

S o in o t h e r w o r d s I w a n t to k n o w w h e n I lo o k a t t h e c le a r e r

v e r s i o n I m a y b e r e a d i n g s o m e t h i n g th a t i s n o t i n th e i ll e g i b l e v e r s i o n
or not?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o C h a ir, l e t m e e x p l a i n , i f o n e
goes to the original NPM6.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t’s p a g e 5 5 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s t h e o r i g i n a l p a g e 5 5 , y o u

w i ll s e e – if I m a y e x p la in C h a ir, C h a ir i f I m a y e x p l a i n i t w i ll – y o u
n e e d n ’ t r e a d i t , th e fir s t t h r e e li n e s , t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e il l e g ib l e v e r s i o n ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o i s c u t o ff, it ’s n o t c o m p l e te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

The complete version appears

on the clearer version.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

R i g h t b u t I’ m n o t g o i n g to d e a l

w i t h t h a t , I’ m g o i n g t o d e a l w it h t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h o n b o t h p a g e s
a n d th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h is t h e s a m e o n b o t h p a g e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t s e e m s t h a t s h o r t ly a ft e r

r e a d in g t h e Pr e s i d e n ti a l s t a t e m e n t , M s M e n t o r p o s t e d o n s o c i a l m e d ia
her response to what appeared in the press release, that you had no
r e c o l l e c ti o n o f M s M e n t o r a n d s h e s a i d ,
“ I C h a ir e d t h e A N C N a t i o n a l P a r li a m e n ta r y C a u c u s w h e n
10

P r e s i d e n t Z u m a w a s h e d e p u ty P r e s id e n t , h e s a t n e x t t o m e
a n d s p o k e th r o u g h m e a n d w i th m e i n C a u c u s e a c h T h u r s d a y
w h e n P a r li a m e n t w a s in s e s s io n . I s a t w i t h h i m i n t h e A N C ’s
p o li t ic a l c o m m i t t e e e a c h m o n t h t o o , h e i s t h e o n e – i t s a y s
W H I b u t i t s h o u l d b e w h o w a s s e n t b y t h e t o p s ix th e n t o t e l l
m e th a t t h e A N C h a s d e p lo y e d m e t o th e C h a ir o f C a u c u s t h e n .
H e i s t h e o n e w h o i n tr o d u c e d m e t o t h e A N C C a u c u s t h e n a s
t h e n e w C h a ir o f C a u c u s .

I h a d a b i - m o n th ly w i t h h i m i n h is

Tu in h u i s o ff ic e s t h e n , h e k n e w m e r i g h t fr o m w h e n h e a r r i v e d
fr o m e x il e , h e m e t m e f r e q u e n t ly o n th e g r o u n d i n t h e N o r t h e r n
20

Cape on many occasions.
Kgalema

M o tl a n t h e

w i ll

I k n o w P r e s id e n t M b e k i a n d
never

ever

say

th e y

had

no

r e c o l l e c ti o n o f m e . A s f o r t h e G u p t a ’s I ’ m n o t th e r e y e t a lo t
s t il l n e e d t o b e t o ld , w i ll le a v e th is h e r e f o r n o w ” ,
A n d t h e r e s t i s n o t r e le v a n t t o th e id e n ti fi c a ti o n i s s u e . D o y o u
h a v e a n y c o m m e n t i n r e g a r d t o t h a t , s h e s a y s , in e ffe c t , t h a t s h e k n e w

Page 79 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
y o u w e ll fr o m a n u m b e r o f in t e r a c ti o n s o v e r th e y e a r s a n d t h a t b y
in f e r e n c e y o u k n e w h e r w e l l ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W e l l I t h o u g h t w e h a d c l a r i f ie d
t h e p o i n t , t h a t w h e n I w a s a s k e d a b o u t h e r fr o m t h e b e g in n in g I
c o u l d n ’ t h a v e a n y r e c o ll e c t io n , s o I g a v e th a t a n s w e r, t h a t I h a v e n o
r e c o l l e c ti o n .

T h e n w h e n I s a w h e r, a f t e r w a r d s , I r e m e m b e r e d a n d

t h e r e f o r e s h e w a s r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e s t a t e m e n t m a d e b y th e P r e s i d e n c y
a t t h e b e g i n n i n g . W h a t I – I th i n k a ls o w h a t s h e h a s w r i tt e n h e r e t h a t I
in tr o d u c e d h e r t o t h e C a u c u s , I t h i n k s h e ’s v e r y m u c h m is t a k e n .
10

In the

C a u c u s , th e C h i e f W h i p in tr o d u c e s w h a t e v e r c h a n g e s t h a t a r e th e r e ,
c e r t a i n l y i n P a r li a m e n t , I ’ m n o t s u r e s h e w a s s i t t in g n e x t to m e , I’ m n o t
s u r e w e n e e d t o g e t t o t h o s e d e ta il s r e a l l y b e c a u s e , i n P a r l ia m e n t i t ’s
m e , a p e r s o n w h o s i ts n e x t t o m e i s t h e d e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t , n e x t to t h e
d e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t i s t h e s p e a k e r, n e x t t o t h e s p e a k e r is th e d e p u ty
s p e a k e r s o I d o n ’t t h i n k w e n e e d t o g e t i n t o t h a t r e a lly.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h a t m a y b e th e r e ’s s o m e i m p o r ta n c e in i t

b e c a u s e I t h i n k s h e g i v e s th e s e d e ta ils , a s I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t s h e ’s
s a y in g i n o r d e r t o s u g g e s t t h a t i t c a n ’ t b e t h a t y o u d i d n o t r e c a ll h e r,
t h a t ’s w h y s h e g iv e s th e s e d e ta il s b e c a u s e i f a ll o f t h e s e th i n g s t h a t
20

s h e s a y s a r e tr u e , t h e n o n e m i g h t s a y, b u t t h e n i n t h a t e v e n t Mr Z u m a
m u s t h a v e k n o w n h e r v e r y w e ll . S o I t h in k t h a t is w h a t s h e is s a y i n g ,
s o if t h e p o s i t io n is t h a t , f o r e x a m p l e , w i t h r e g a r d t o h e r s a y in g t h e tw o
o f y o u u s e d t o s i t n e x t t o e a c h o t h e r, i f t h e p o s i ti o n is t h a t , n o , n o th a t
c o u l d n o t h a v e – t h a t w a s n ’ t t h e r e i t ’s i m p o r t a n t to s a y, n o , n o t h a t ’s
n o t t h e c a s e b e c a u s e t h is c r e a t e s th e i m p r e s s io n th a t th e tw o o f y o u

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
h a d in t e r a c t e d s o c lo s e ly in t e r m s o f w o r k t h a t s h e ’s s u g g e s t in g t h is
id e a t h a t y o u c o u l d n ’ t r e c a l l h e r i s n o t tr u e a n d th e r e f o r e i t is i m p o r t a n t
t o s a y, w e ll d id y o u k n o w e a c h o t h e r a s w e ll a s s h e ’s s u g g e s t i n g a n d s o
o n in t e r m s o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t s h e is m e n t i o n i n g ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o I h e a r y o u C h a ir, a l l I ’ m

s a y in g w h e n I w a s a s k e d fir s t , I c o u l d n ’ t r e m e m b e r th e n a m e , o n ly la t e r
w h e n I s a w h e r a n d I r e m e m b e r e d , o h th is is th e p e r s o n . S o a t th e ti m e
t h a t I d id n o t r e m e m b e r h e r, th a t ’s w h e n I s a id , n o I d o n ’ t k n o w t h is
p e r s o n , t h a t ’s w h e n s h e r e s p o n d e d b u t i f la t e r I r e c o g n is e a n d I
10

r e m e m b e r e d h e r t h e n I r e m e m b e r e d h e r.

A l l I ’ m s a y in g w i t h t h e s e

d e t a i ls w h ic h h a v e – t h a t o b j e c t iv e t o s a y i s i m p o s s i b l e b u t I ’ m s a y i n g
s h e ’s a s w e l l e x a g g e r a ti n g b e c a u s e s h e n e v e r s a t n e x t t o m e . I’ m j u s t
e x p l a i n in g t h a t o n e w it h o u t w a n ti n g t o ta lk a b o u t it , w h e t h e r i t’s
i m p o r t a n t p o in t o r w h a t b u t i t’s n o t t r u e t h a t s h e w a s s it t in g n e x t t o m e
a l w a y s , I i n tr o d u c e d h e r to t h e C a u c u s i t ’s n o t t h e jo b o f t h e P r e s i d e n t
it ’s t h e jo b o f t h e C h i e f W h i p o r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f C a u c u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld t h e P r e s i d e n t b e in v o lv e d in C a u c u s e s a n d s o
o n in P a r li a m e n t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A :
20

P r e s id e n t a tt e n d s t h e C a u c u s

m e e ti n g , i f h e ’s th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A s a m e m b e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a m e m b e r, n o t a s P r e s id e n t?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

No as a member of the ANC.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a n k y o u , M r Pr e t o r i u s ?

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Was the

s t a te m e n t e v e r c o r r e c t e d ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Sorry?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Was the Presidential statement

t h a t y o u h a d n o r e c o ll e c t i o n o f M s M e n to r, e v e r c o r r e c t e d ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r, I d o n ’ t

remember it.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o M r P r e t o r iu s , i f i t w a s c o r r e c t , t h a t h e d i d n ’ t

r e c o l l e c t w h o Ms M e n t o r w a s w o u l d t h e r e b e a n e e d to c o r r e c t t h a t ?
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s b e c a u s e it g iv e s a n

in c o r r e c t i m p r e s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l b a s e o n w h a t h e e x p l a in e d , h is – I u n d e r s t a n d

h i m t o s a y, I m a y h a v e k n o w n t h e f a c e b u t I d id n ’ t p u t t h e n a m e to t h e
p a r t ic u l a r f a c e o r is y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
s u b m is s io n s

l a te r

but

clearly

th e

C h a ir t h a t ’s

i m p r e s s io n

gained

matter for
from

the

P r e s i d e n ti a l s ta t e m e n t is a n i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t u r n s o u t , it a p p e a r s , t o b e
c e r t a i n l y c a p a b l e o f q u a l i fi c a t io n a n d I ’ m s i m p ly a s k in g w a s it e v e r y
q u a li fi e d o r c o r r e c t e d , I d o n ’t w a n t to m a k e a b i g s o n g a n d d a n c e a b o u t
20

it C h a ir, r e a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C a n w e m o v e o n M r Zu m a t o

p a r a g r a p h 11 8 .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

P a r a g r a p h 11 8 ?

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s , w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e a f t e r i s

Page 82 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
t h a t M s M e n to r w a n t e d to la y c h a r g e s a n d s h e s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 11 8
on page 50.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Pa ge 50 – page hundred and?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 11 8 p a g e 5 0 .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t s e e m s y o u a n d I a r e t h e o n ly
o n e s t h a t g e t o n v e r y w e ll i n t h is r o l e M r Z u m a , s h e w a n t e d t o la y
c h a r g e s , d o y o u s e e t h a t , a g a i n s t y o u a n d s o m e o th e r s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
10

Hm-mmm.

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S h e s a y s s h e m a d e a s t a te m e n t
a n d th e n a t a l a t e r s ta g e s h e r e q u e s te d h e r s ta t e m e n t fr o m t h e p o li c e
b u t s a id t h a t i t h a d b e e n – s h e w a s t o ld t h a t i t h a d b e e n s e n t t o
P r e t o r i a a n d t h e n t h e y w e r e a s k e d – s h e w a s a s k e d to m e e t w i th
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s o f th e p o li c e . L e t m e ju s t g e t m y n o t e , i f w e c o u l d g o
t o p a r a g r a p h 11 9 , I’ m a f r a i d C h a ir t h e r e ’s a p a g e m is s i n g , I d o n ’t k n o w
h o w t h a t h a p p e n e d b u t I w o r k e d o ff a c o p y w h e r e t h e p a g e w a s n o t
m is s i n g s o I h a v e m y n o t e s , a n d c a n w e t a k e a s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t s o I
can get the page?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, fiv e m i n u t e s ?

20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F iv e m i n u t e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w e ’ ll j u s t t a k e a f iv e m i n u te s a d j o u r n m e n t f o r

t h e p a g e to b e f o u n d , t h a n k y o u , w e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e w e a b l e to p r o c e e d ?

Page 83 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Th e p a g e s w e r e a ll t h e r e i n t h e fi r s t
p l a c e th e y w e r e ju s t m i s p l a c e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S o i f o n e lo o k s a t t h e t y p e d p a g e o n
t h e o r i g i n a l – ty p e d n u m b e r o n t h e o r i g i n a l p a g e o n e w il l s e e p a g e 5 0
a n d p a g e 3 3 . D o y o u s e e th a t C h a i r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : T h e n t h e n e x t p a g e is p a g e 3 4 b u t
page 49 read.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S : A n d t h e n t h e n e x t p a g e is p a g e 5 1
p a r a g r a p h 3 5 ty p e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is th e – is t h e r e d n u m b e r in g th a t is w r o n g ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

R e d n u m b e r i n g i s w r o n g b u t th e

p a g e n u m b e r in g ty p e d o n th e o r i g in a l p a g e is c o r r e c t . A r e y o u w i t h u s
M r Zu m a ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J u s t [ mi c r o p h o n e o ff ].
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A t p a g e 5 0 , c a n y o u s e e p a g e 5 0 th e r e d 5 0 .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Th e r e d 5 0 y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja below it you have got a black 33 – the red 50

b e l o w i t th e r e is a b l a c k 3 3 . C a n y o u s e e t h e n u m b e r in t h e m id d le o f
the page 33?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja 33.

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
CHAIRPERSON: On page 50.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I have got there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: And then 50.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a if y o u g o t o t h e n e x t p a g e .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e d p a g e n u m b e r s a y s 4 9 i n s te a d o f 5 1 .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t s h o u ld s a y 5 1 b u t i t s a y s 4 9 .
10

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But if you look at the black number in the middle of

the page it is 34.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 34 yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

So the black numbers are correct but the red ones

t h e r e s e e ms t o h a v e b e e n a p r o b l e m .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S : S o M r Z u m a a ll w e n e e d f o r n o w i f
20

y o u w o u ld l o o k a t t h e b l a c k n u m b e r in g is p a g e s 3 3 a n d 3 4 w e n e e d n o t
w o r r y f o r t h e m o m e n t a b o u t th e r e s t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S:

S o b a s ic a l ly i f o n e l o o k s a t

p a r a g r a p h 11 8 o n p a g e r e d 5 0 . Yo u h a v e t h a t ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm . 159?

Page 85 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : 1 8 .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : 11 8 ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : 11 8 .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : 11 8 y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : D o y o u h a v e t h a t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : O n t h a t p a g e a n d i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h
M s M e n to r s a y s o r s a id t h a t s h e w e n t t o la y c h a r g e s a g a in s t y o u r s e l f
a n d s o m e m i n i s te r s o f c a b in e t a n d c e r t a i n b o a r d m e m b e r s o f c e r t a i n
10

s t a te o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e s .

S h e d i d th a t i n C a p e To w n .

Then in

p a r a g r a p h 11 9 s h e s a y s s h e s u b s e q u e n tl y r e q u e s t e d t h e s t a te m e n t fr o m
t h e p o l ic e b u t w a s t o l d it w a s w it h t h e H a w k s . A n d t h a t w a s i n P r e t o r i a .
I n p a r a g r a p h 1 2 0 s h e s a i d a n d I w il l r e a d i t :
“ A m e m b e r o f th e H a w k s A d v o c a t e M t o l o a l o n g w i t h
a n o t h e r m e m b e r o f th e H a w k s w h o s e n a m e I d o n o t
r e c a l l t h e n c a m e to m y h o u s e w i t h a t y p e d v e r s io n o f
t h e s ta t e m e n t. A d v o c a te M t o l o a d v is e d m e t h a t t h e
r e a s o n f o r t h e d e l a y w a s t h a t I h a d c o m p l a in e d a b o u t
President
20

Zuma

c o n s e q u e n t ly t ie d .

and

th a t

th e i r

hands

were

T h e y c o u l d n o t p r o c e e d w i th m y

c o m p la i n t w h il e th e P r e s i d e n t w a s n a m e s i n m y
c o m p la i n t . ”
S h e c o n t in u e s to s a y M r Z u m a :
“ A f t e r m u c h d e li b e r a t io n I a g r e e d t o r e m o v e M r
Z u m a ’s n a m e f r o m t h e a ffi d a v i t in t h e h o p e s t h a t t h e

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
H a w k s w o u ld i n v e s ti g a te m y c o m p l a i n ts . A s fa r a s I
a m a w a r e t h e H a w k s d o n o t s e e m to b e a c tiv e ly
in v e s t i g a t in g t h e m a t t e r a n d t h e r e d o e s n o t s e e m t o
h a v e b e e n a n y p r o g r e s s in t h is r e g a r d . ”
A fe w m a t te r s a r is in g f r o m t h a t p a r a g r a p h a g a i n s t th a t b a c k g r o u n d Mr
Z u m a w a s i t e v e r r e p o r t e d to y o u b y a n y o n e th a t a c o m p l a i n t h a d b e e n
la id a g a in s t y o u a n d a c h a r g e h a d b e e n r a i s e d b y M s M e n to r ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o th i n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N e v e r c o m .
10

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Nothing yes.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

T h e c o n d u c t r e p o r t e d h e r e th a t a

c o m p la i n a n t h a d b e e n a d v is e d b y a m e m b e r o f t h e H a w k s t o e x c l u d e
t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s n a m e – a n y Pr e s i d e n t f o r th a t m a t t e r.

How do you

regard such conduct?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

W e l l I k n o w n o th in g a b o u t t h is

m a t t e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Is s u c h c o n d u c t a c c e p ta b l e th o u g h ,
t h a t is w h a t I a m s a y i n g ? H a d y o u k n o w n a b o u t i t o r h a d y o u b e e n to ld
about it would you have responded in any way?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I t h in k I m i s s e d t h e q u e s ti o n . J u s t r e p e a t
the question.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Ja I am just asking if he has any

v ie w o f t h e a ll e g a t io n m a d e b y M s M e n t o r. Yo u a r e fr e e to c o m m e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : N o I …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I a m i n v i ti n g a c o m m e n t o r y o u n e e d

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n o t c o m m e n t if y o u w is h .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

N o I h a v e g o t n o i d e a w h a t is

h a p p e n in g h e r e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

R ig h t .

W e l l i f I c a n j u s t c la r i fy.

W h a t t h e H a w k s s a id w a s t h a t t h e y c o u l d n o t p r o c e e d w i th t h e
c o m p la i n t – t h e y d o n o t s a y t h e y w e r e t o l d o r g i v e n o r d e r s b y a n y o n e .
T h e y s i m p ly s a y th a t a s lo n g a s y o u r n a m e a p p e a r e d i n t h e c h a r g e
s h e e t o r i n t h e c h a r g e la id r a th e r t h e y c o u l d n o t p r o c e e d w i th i t . T h a t
is w h a t t h e y s a y. D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n w h a t t h e y s a i d ?
10

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

W e ll i t is d i ff ic u l t t o h a v e a

c o m m e n t b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w w h y e v e n t h a t s t a te m e n t w a s m a d e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : R ig h t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A ZU M A : I d o n o t k n o w w h a t c a u s e d t h e m
t o m a k e s u c h a s t a te m e n t w h a te v e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S : W e l l c l e a r ly th e y b e li e v e d t h a t t h e y
c o u l d n o t p r o c e e d w i t h th e c o m p l a i n t. I f t h is is t o b e b e li e v e d a n d I
q u a li fy o n t h a t b a s i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t m e j u s t h e a r th e fu ll q u e s t io n fir s t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k M r M a s u k u w a n ts t o s a y s o m e t h in g b u t l e t m e
h e a r t h e f u l l q u e s ti o n f ir s t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : T h e q u e s ti o n i s s i m p l y d o y o u h a v e
t h e – I a m i n v i ti n g y o u t o m a k e a c o m m e n t i f y o u w is h t o m a k e a
c o m m e n t o n t h e a l l e g a ti o n t h a t a m e m b e r o f t h e H a w k s to ld a
c o m p la i n a n t t h a t b e c a u s e y o u r n a m e a p p e a r e d i n th e c o m p l a in t th e y

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c o u l d n o t p r o c e e d w i t h t h e c o m p l a i n t . Th a t i s a l l I a m s a y i n g a n d I a m
in v i ti n g y o u t o c o m m e n t i f y o u w i s h .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No let me not comment because
I d o n o t k n o w w h a t w a s th e c a u s e o f th a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

The matter proceeded at – not in

any respect that needs to be dealt with …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I t h i n k M r M a s u k u w a n ts to e i t h e r g iv e y o u
something or address me.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : C h a ir th e
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

I u n d e r s ta n d t h e q u e s t io n to b e t h a t t h e

H a w k s s a i d s o m e th i n g a b o u t t h is m a t te r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : B u t th is is n o t a n a ff id a v i t f r o m t h e H a w k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU:

T h is is M r – t h is is a n a ff id a v i t f r o m M s

M e n to r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s M e n to r.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : M s M e n t o r. I t m u s t b e m a d e c l e a r t h a t i t is
20

M s M e n t o r w h o s a y s t h is i s w h a t t h e y s a i d . N o t – t h e i m p r e s s i o n m u s t
n o t b e g i v e n t h a t th e H a w k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U : Ar e t h e m s e l v e s s a y in g t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. M r Pr e to r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : I t h o u g h t I h a d m a d e t h a t c l e a r b u t I

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
hear what my learned friend says.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : B u t I a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll d o y o u w a n t t o j u s t p u t t h a t b e y o n d d o u b t ? I a m
not sure …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S : W e l l C h a ir I r e c a l l s a y i n g a t a s t a g e
if t h e s t a te m e n t o f M s M e n t o r i s t o b e b e li e v e d a t a ll . S h e a ll e g e s t h a t
A d v o c a t e M t o l o a d v is e d m e th a t th e r e a s o n fo r t h e d e l a y w a s t h a t I h a d
c o m p la i n e d
10

about

Pr e s id e n t

Zu m a

and

th a t

th e i r

hands

were

c o n s e q u e n t ly ti e d . S o i f t h e r e h a s b e e n m is – a n y m is u n d e r s t a n d in g i t
c a n b e c l a r i fi e d o n t h a t b a s i s . I a m n o t s u r e i f a ff e c ts t h e g r a v a m e n o f
t h e q u e s ti o n b u t th e p o i n t a s M s M e n t o r s a id a n d i f s h e i s t o b e
b e li e v e d I r e p e a t s h e s a y s th a t A d v o c a t e M t o l o o f t h e H a w k s a d v is e d
t h a t th e r e a s o n f o r t h e d e la y i n p r o c e s s i n g t h e c o m p l a i n t w a s t h a t y o u
h a d b e e n m e n t i o n e d . I in v i t e d y o u to c o m m e n t a n d y o u h a v e g iv e n y o u r
a n s w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k th e a n s w e r w a s t h a t y o u c o u ld n o t c o m m e n t Mr
Z u m a i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s c o r r e c t .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Correct.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : A s I u n d e r s t a n d it y o u h a v e h a d a n
o p p o r t u n i ty to e x a m in e t h e s t a te m e n t .
ADV DANIEL MANTSHA:

S o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n I j u s t w a n t t o p u t c e r ta in

point here.

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
ADV DANIEL MANTSHA: I was before the commission…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r M a n t s h a . C a n I a s k th e le a d e r o f th e
le g a l te a m t o a s s is t ?

N o r m a l ly y o u h a v e t h e le a d e r o f t h e t e a m

a d d r e s s i n g t h e C h a ir a n d i f s h e – if h e is g o i n g t o a r r a n g e fo r
s o m e b o d y e l s e to a d d r e s s t h e n i t is – a r r a n g e m e n ts a r e m a d e . I d o n o t
k n o w – M r S i k h a k h a n e a r e y o u a b le t o ? O k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V D A N I E L M A N T S H A : I th i n k i t w i ll b e f a ir t o p u t t o t h e w i t n e s s t h a t
M r M t o lo h a s a p p li e d t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e t h a t w i t n e s s . M e a n i n g t h a t th e
10

s t a te m e n t w h i c h is a t tr i b u te d t o h i m a r e i n d i s p u t e b y h i m . S o i t i s n o t
f a ir i f t h e r e is a v e r s io n a lr e a d y o f M r M t o l o t h a t i t is a l s o n o t p u t to t h e
witness.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll . .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : Th a t i s t h e p o i n t I w a n t t o m a k e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a n ts h a w e c a n n o t a ll o w … – M r S ik h a k h a n e c a n
y o u a d d r e s s m e ? T h a n k y o u Mr M a n ts h a .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : C h a ir I t h i n k – I th i n k h e s h o u l d p r o c e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : A n d I w i ll d e a l w i t h …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y y o u w i ll – y o u w i ll – o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K H A N E : I t h i n k t h e p o i n t is m a d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . P r o c e e d M r Pr e to r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Ye s .

M r Z u m a i n f a ir n e s s t o

y o u r s e l f o n c e a g a in w e c a n o p e n a c h a n n e l o f c o m m u n ic a ti o n o f s o m e
order here.

Yo u r l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e a n d I s tr e s s th e s i n g u la r w i ll

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e - e x a m i n e y o u a s a m a t t e r o f r i g h t .

And if

a n y th in g n e e d s t o b e c l a r i f ie d o r i f y o u e v e r th i n k o f a n y t h i n g b y w a y o f
e x p l a n a t io n t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty w il l b e a v a i l a b l e .

But for the moment if

y o u w a n t to t a k e a m o m e n t to r e a d y o u h a v e b e e n in f o r m e d t h a t
A d v o c a t e M t o l o h a s a d i ffe r e n t v e r s i o n b u t w h a t I a m p u t ti n g to y o u
h e r e is t h e s t a t e m e n t o f M s M e n t o r n o t A d v o c a t e M t o l o t h a t is w h a t s h e
s a y s . A n d y o u h a v e g iv e n y o u r a n s w e r.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : S o a t l e a s t w e a r e o n t h e s a m e p a g e
10

I th in k .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S:

Th a n k y o u . T h e m a t t e r t h e n c a m e

b e f o r e th e P u b lic P r o te c t o r a n d I k n o w i n y o u r o p e n i n g y o u h a v e m a d e
s o m e s u b mi s s io n s o r s ta t e m e n t s c o n c e r n i n g t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r
p r o c e s s a n d s o i f y o u w is h t o c o m m e n t o n a n y o f t h e p a r a g r a p h s
f o ll o w i n g p a r a g r a p h 1 2 4 o n p a g e r e d 5 1 p l e a s e f e e l fr e e t o d o s o .

If

y o u n e e d t i m e t o l o o k a t t h e m t h a t is in o r d e r. I k n o w i t is a m a tt e r o f
s o m e – t h a t t o w h ic h y o u p a i d s o m e a tt e n ti o n t h u s f a r in t h e s e
p r o c e e d i n g s . I d o n o t i n t e n d t o a s k y o u a n y q u e s ti o n s i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e
20

la t t e r p a r t o f t h e s t a t e m e n t .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : B u t i f y o u w i s h to c o m m e n t y o u fr e e
to do so.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : M a y w e th e n …

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l i f y o u a r e m o v i n g a w a y fr o m t h a t s ta t e m e n t Mr

P r e t o r i u s I h a v e g o t s o m e q u e s ti o n s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h r e g a r d t o M s M e n t o r ’s s t a t e m e n t – e v i d e n c e th a t
s h e w a s a t o n e s ta g e i n – a t t h e r e s i d e n c e o f th e G u p t a ’s w h e n e i th e r
M r A ja y G u p t a o r o n e o f t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s o ffe r e d h e r t h e j o b o f
M i n is t e r o f P u b li c E n t e r p r i s e s a n d s h e s a y s y o u e n t e r e d th e r o o m w h e n
s h e w a s g e t ti n g I t h i n k s h e s a y s c o n fr o n t a ti o n a l b e c a u s e s h e t o o k
o b j e c ti o n to s o m e b o d y o t h e r t h a n t h e P r e s i d e n t o ff e r i n g h e r th e j o b o f a
10

M i n is t e r.

S h e s a y s t h a t w h e n y o u e n te r e d t h e r o o m s h e r o s e – s h e

s t o o d u p a n d s h e s a y s a s is c u s to m a r y a s i s p r o t o c o l w h e n th e
P r e s i d e n t c o m e s i n s h e s a y s M r G u p ta j u s t c o n ti n u e d s i tt i n g d o w n . S h e
s a y s y o u s p o k e to h e r, a s k e d h e r t o c o m e d o w n b e c a u s e s h e w a s
a g i ta t e d b e c a u s e o f th is o ff e r th a t w a s m a d e to h e r b y s o m e b o d y o t h e r
t h a n t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d s h e s a y s y o u a s k e d h e r t o c o m e d o w n a n d w h e n
s h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t s h e w a n t e d to le a v e b e c a u s e s h e d i d n o t w a n t t o
m is s h e r f li g h t s h e s a y s y o u w a l k e d h e r t o t h e c a r o u ts i d e a n d y o u e v e n
c a r r i e d h e r b a g a n d w a lk e d w i th h e r. S h e s a y s w h e n y o u c a m e t o th e
c a r y o u s a i d y o u r g o o d b y e s a n d – a n d I t h i n k y o u s a i d s o m e th in g l ik e
20

w e w i ll s e e e a c h o t h e r N to m b a z a n e I t h in k s h e s a y s y o u u s e d t h a t
w o r d , Zu lu w o r d N t o m b a z a n e a n d s h e s a i d y o u w e r e – y o u w e r e c a l m ,
y o u tr ie d t o c a l m h e r. S h e s a y s s h e t o l d y o u a b o u t w h a t M r G u p t a h a d
s a i d to h e r b u t s h e s a y s y o u w e r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t c a l m i n g h e r d o w n
a n d y o u w a lk e d h e r t o t h e c a r a n d y o u h e l p e d h e r w i t h h e r b a g . Yo u
h a v e n o r e c o ll e c t io n w h a ts o e v e r o f a n y i n c id e n t lik e t h a t ?

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o r e c o l le c t i o n a t a l l. N o t h i n g
a b s o l u t e ly n o t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d is i t – i t i s n o t p o s s i b l e t h a t i t c o u l d h a v e
h a p p e n e d ? I t is n o t a q u e s ti o n o f y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r b u t m a y b e d i d
h a p p e n . A r e y o u p o s i t iv e i t n e v e r h a p p e n e d ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N e v e r, n e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d – a n d y o u s a i d y o u h a v e – y o u a ls o d o n o t
10

r e m e m b e r t h a t s h e h a d b e e n tr y i n g t o m e e t w i t h y o u f o r s o m e t i m e o n
s o m e is s u e t h a t r e l a te d t o t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e i n w h ic h s h e w a s
in v o lv e d b e f o r e – b e fo r e t h is in c i d e n t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h a t e i th e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : M e m b e r s o f P a r l ia m e n t th e r e i s
a p e r s o n i n P a r l i a m e n t w h o is r e s p o n s ib le fo r t h e m a t te r s o f t h e
P r e s i d e n t a n d D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t . A n y o n e i f y o u h a v e d i ff ic u l ti e s t o fi n d
t h e Pr e s id e n t o r t h e D e p u ty Pr e s id e n t w i ll g o t o t h a t p e r s o n w h o w o r k s
w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d t h a t is t h e p e r s o n w h o a r r a n g e s m e e ti n g s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d th a t is t h e p e r s o n t h r o u g h w h o m s h e w o u ld
have had to go
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To g o i n o r d e r t o a r r a n g e fo r a m e e ti n g ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

A b s o l u te ly t h a t w h a t – w o u l d

have happened.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Yo u – y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b le t o s a y b u t d o y o u
b y a n y c h a n c e k n o w w h y if i n d e e d t h is d i d n o t h a p p e n w h y M s M e n t o r
w o u ld s a y i t h a p p e n e d a n d g a v e – a n d g iv e th e k i n d s o f d e t a i ls t h a t s h e
h a s g iv e n ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o n o t k n o w w h y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o n o t k n o w.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e i n t h is c o m m i s s io n t h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n h a s n o t
b e e n f i n a li s e d a s f a r a s I k n o w to e s t a b li s h w h e t h e r t h e a i r l in e s h a v e
g o t a r e c o r d o f h e r fl y i n g t o J o h a n n e s b u r g o n t h e d a t e s t h a t s h e h a d
g iv e n . S o w e a r e w a i ti n g to s e e w h e t h e r t h e r e is s u c h a r e c o r d o f h e r
h a v i n g c o m e t o J o h a n n e s b u r g th e n .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I j u s t th o u g h t it i s i m p o r t a n t t h a t I g e t a

c a t e g o r ic a l a n s w e r.
20

M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

A n d t h e n I w o u l d li k e t o t a k e y o u b a c k t o M r

M a s e k o . Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o g o to t h e s t a te m e n t . W h e n e v e r y th in g i s
d o n e I h a v e t o m a k e c e r t a i n f in d i n g s o n e v i d e n c e t h a t I h a v e h e a r d .
A n d i t is i m p o r t a n t th e r e fo r e t h a t I s h o u l d g e t c l a r i f ic a t i o n a n d g e t
p e r s p e c t iv e s f r o m d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e .

Mr Maseko has come to the

Page 95 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
c o m m i s s io n a n d s a i d h e h a d b e e n C E O o f G C I S a n d h e h a d p e r f o r m e d
h is d u ti e s v e r y w e l l.

N o - o n e i n te r m s o f h is s e n i o r s h a d c o m p l a i n e d

a b o u t h i m n o t d o in g h is w o r k p r o p e r l y a n d h e s a y s – h e s a i d M i n i s te r
C h a b a n e a c t u a l ly s a i d t h a t h e w a s a v e r y g o o d I t h i n k c i v i l s e r v a n t
m i g h t b e t h e n a m e – t h e w o r d th a t w a s u s e d – t h e te r m t h a t w a s u s e d .
H e s a i d h e w a s v e r y h a p p y w i t h h is w o r k a n d h e s a y s h e n e v e r a s k e d t o
b e r e m o v e d fr o m t h e p o s i t io n o f C E O o f G C I S a n d t o b e tr a n s f e r r e d t o
D ir e c t o r

General

of

the

Department

of

P u b l ic

S e r v ic e s

and

A d m i n i s t r a t io n . A n d h e s a y s th e o n ly r e a s o n w h y h e w a s – a s f a r a s h e
10

k n o w s h e w a s r e m o v e d is w h a t h e w a s t o l d b y M i n is t e r C h a b a n e .
N a m e ly th a t y o u h a d c a l le d a n d s a i d Mr M a s e k o n e e d e d t o b e
r e d e p l o y e d o r h i s s e r v i c e s t e r m i n a t e d . A n d a c t u a l ly i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly
h e s a i d M in is t e r C h a b a n e t o ld h i m t h a t b y t h e t i m e y o u a r r iv e d b a c k i n
t h e c o u n tr y M s M a s e k o s h o u ld n o lo n g e r b e a t G C I S . A n d h e s a y s h e
b e li e v e s t h a t h e w a s r e m o v e d fr o m th i s p o s i ti o n a t G C I S o f C E O
b e c a u s e h e d i d n o t c o o p e r a te w i t h th e G u p t a ’s .

N o w p a r t o f t h is h a s

b e e n – y o u h a v e b e e n g iv e n a c h a n c e t o c o m m e n t o f [i n d i s t i n c t ] b u t I
t h i n k I w a n te d t o g iv e y o u a f u l l p ic t u r e a n d e n a b l e y o u t o s e e w h e t h e r
y o u h a v e a n y t h in g to a d d t o w h a t y o u h a d s a i d .
20

MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:
A b s o lu t e l y n o th i n g .
President.

B e c a u s e D G ’s

N o I h a v e n o th in g to a d d .
d e a l w i th

M i n i s te r s n o t th e

Th e r e is n o Pr e s i d e n t w h o c a n s a y I d o n o t l ik e t h is D G .

N o t w o r k i n g w it h m e .

U n le s s y o u ta lk a b o u t th e D G a t t h e P r e s i d e n t –

a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic e . N o r e a s o n w h y I s h o u l d l o o k a t t h e D G d o w n
t h e r e a n d s a y I d o n o t w a n t - ta k e it – t a k e h i m o u t .

Page 96 of 107

It can never

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
happen.

I t is M i n i s t e r s w h o d e a l w i t h th e D G ”s .

If there would have

b e e n a n y d is c u s s i o n t h e r e w i ll b e d is c u s s i o n i f th e M in is t e r is r e p o r ti n g
t o th e P r e s i d e n t a n d s a y s th is is w h a t I w is h s h o u ld h a p p e n . I n o th e r
w o r d s p r e s e n ti n g th e m a t t e r s o th a t t h e m a t t e r is g o i n g t o b e
d is c u s s e d . I t n e v e r g o e s t h i s w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t is y o u r e v i d e n c e th a t th is is w h a t n o r m a ll y

h a p p e n s – t h is i s w h a t n o r m a ll y h a p p e n s i n t e r m s o f t h e r e m o v a l o f
D G ’s a n d y o u c a n n o t s p e c i f ic a l ly r e m e m b e r t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r
w h ic h M r M a s e k o w a s r e m o v e d o r is t h e p o s i t io n t h a t y o u h a v e a c l e a r
10

r e c o l l e c ti o n t h a t th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h h e w a s r e m o v e d
in v o lv e d M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a s k i n g y o u i f y o u c o u l d tr a n s f e r h i m t o t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e s a n d A d m in is tr a ti o n .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA:

No that is what happens.

M i n is t e r s i f t h e y h a v e g o t w h a te v e r v ie w a b o u t t h e ir a c c o u n ti n g o ffic e r s
t h e y m a k e – t h e y h a v e th e c a s e w h a te v e r i t is t h e y t h e n c o n s u l t w i th
t h e Pr e s i d e n t .

I t h a s n e v e r s t a r t e d fr o m t h e Pr e s i d e n t b e c a u s e th e

P r e s i d e n t i s n o t w o r k i n g w i t h th e p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a i d a ls o t h a t a s I u n d e r s ta n d h is e v i d e n c e I h o p e
I a m n o t m is r e p r e s e n t in g h i m . A s I u n d e r s t o o d h is e v i d e n c e h e s a i d –
20

o r s u g g e s te d t h a t h i s r e m o v a l w a s d o n e v e r y u r g e n tl y.

W a s e ffe c t e d

v e r y u r g e n tly, v e r y q u ic k ly b e c a u s e o f w h a t h e s a id M i n is t e r C h a b a n e
t o l d h i m t h a t y o u – b y t h e t i m e y o u a r r iv e b a c k h e s h o u l d n o t b e in t h a t
p o s i ti o n .

A n d h e s a y s i t w a s s o u r g e n t t h a t M i n i s te r B a l o y i w h o w a s

M i n is t e r o f P u b li c S e r v ic e a n d A d m in is tr a t io n a t t h e t i m e h a d n o t b e e n
c o n s u l t e d a b o u t h i m – t h a t i s M s M a s e k o b e i n g t a k e n t o h is d e p a r t m e n t

Page 97 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
t o b e D G . H e s a y s M i n is t e r B a l o y i h a d fo r th e f ir s t t i m e f r o m h i m t h a t
h e w a s g o in g to b e h is n e w D G . Yo u d o n o t k n o w a n y th in g a b o u t t h a t?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No nothing.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I t d o e s n o t w o r k li k e t h a t r e a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o n o t t h in k y o u c o u l d h a v e a
M i n is t e r o f P u b lic A d m i n is tr a t i o n n o t k n o w i n g a n d t h e n ju s t p e o p l e
s a y in g h e r e is a p e r s o n . B e c a u s e M i n is te r s i f fo r a n e x a m p le t h e r e is
10

t o b e a s h if t M i n i s t e r s d is c u s s a m o n g t h e m s e l v e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Because…
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: And they come to say when the
– t h e y h a v e g o t a n a g r e e m e n t to s a y n o th is is w h a t w e a r e d o in g .
S e e k in g e n d o r s e m e n t t h e r e f o r e fr o m th e c a b i n e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e s a i d t h a t a s a r e s u l t o f th e w a y i n w h ic h h e
h a d b e e n p l a c e d in t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a t i o n
M i n is t e r B a l o y i w a s n o t h a p p y a n d t h e ir r e l a ti o n s h i p d i d n o t b e c o m e
g o o d a n d h e r e s i g n e d b e f o r e h is t e r m c o u ld c o m e t o a n e n d . S o I a m
ju s t g iv in g y o u t h e f u l l p ic t u r e . Th a t is t h e – t h a t i s w h a t h e s a y – h e is

20

s a y in g – h e s a y s I h a d n o r e a s o n to le a v e G C I S I d id n o t a s k t o b e
tr a n s fe r r e d to t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n . M y
M i n is t e r w a s h a p p y w i th m y p e r f o r m a n c e a n d I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c S e r v i c e s a n d A d m in is tr a ti o n in c ir c u m s ta n c e s
w h e r e th e M i n is t e r o f t h a t d e p a r t m e n t w a s n o t c o n s u l t e d . H e w a s n o t
h a p p y th a t I h a d b e e n i m p o s e d o n h i m . O u r r e l a t i o n s h i p w a s n o t g o o d .

Page 98 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
I r e s i g n e d b e fo r e t h e e x p ir y o f m y te r m . Yo u m ig h t n o t h a v e a n y t h i n g
f u r th e r to a d d b u t I a m ju s t g i v i n g y o u a fu ll p ic t u r e o f w h a t h is
e v i d e n c e is .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o I h a v e n o t h i n g t o a d d r e a ll y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I h a v e n o th i n g t o a d d .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Mr Pretorius.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Z u m a y o u d i d
m e n ti o n t h a t y o u w e r e s u ff e r i n g f r o m t h e fl u is it o k a y t o c o n t in u e s ti ll ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja we can continue.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

Good.

May we go to bundle B I

w o u ld lik e t o d e a l w i t h t h e s ta t e m e n t o f B a r b a r a H o g a n . I t i s i n b u n d le
B.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Bu ndle B.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

G G [ b ] E x h i b i t G G [ b ] . Yo u w i ll f in d

t h e s t a te m e n t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h a t b u n d l e u n d e r Ta b 5 .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : H m . It i s t h e r e o k a y. I t h o u g h t
20

it w a s c a l le d b u n d l e B . O h j a . H e r e i t is .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : D o y o u h a v e th a t b u n d l e b e fo r e y o u
a n d th a t s t a te m e n t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S :

And can I take you please to the

s e c o n d s t a t e m e n t b e c a u s e t h e r e is s h o r t s t a t e m e n t w h ic h I a m n o t

Page 99 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
going to deal with but a longer statement which forms the subject
matter of evidence. It appears at page 399 in the red markings.
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: 399.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h e a c t u a l s t a te m e n t s t a r ts a t 4 0 0 is i t n o t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : J a it s t a r ts a t 4 0 0 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a c tu a l s ta t e m e n t M r P r e t o r i u s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S : Ye s t h e c o n t e n t s p a g e i s p a g e 3 9 9
10

a n d t h e s u b s t a n t iv e p a r t o f th e s t a t e m e n t is a t p a g e 4 0 0 . I f I a m – i n
t h e – I w i ll c o m e b a c k t o t h e p a r a g r a p h h e a d e d th e P u r p o s e o f t h e
S t a te m e n t a t t h e e n d . Th e s e a r e r e a l ly c o n c l u s io n s t h a t w e m a y d e a l
w i t h a t t h e e n d o f t h e s ta t e m e n t.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t f o r t h e m o m e n t c a n w e t u r n
t o p a g e 4 0 3 ? O n e o f t h e t o p ic s t h a t h a s b e e n d e a lt w i t h b y a n u m b e r o f
w i t n e s s e s Mr Z u m a i n th is C o m m i s s io n t h u s f a r is th e m a n n e r in w h ic h
S t a te O w n e d E n ti ti e s B o a r d M e m b e r s a r e a p p o i n t e d a n d t h e m a n n e r in
w h ic h C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ff ic e r s , C h ie f F i n a n c i a l O ff ic e r s a n d p e r h a p s

20

o th e r S e n i o r E x e c u t iv e s a r e a p p o i n te d a n d p e r h a p s y o u c a n h e lp u s
w i t h th e k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e r i e n c e y o u h a v e in r e g a r d t o a p p o i n t m e n ts
of

SOE

Board

Members

and

SOE

Senior

E x e c u tiv e s

and

the

r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h th o s e a p p o i n t m e n t s t a k e
p l a c e a n d w h a t w e h a v e l e a r n t is t h e p o l ic y o f d e p l o y m e n t a n d i f I m a y I
w o u ld li k e t o a s k y o u s o m e q u e s t i o n s a b o u t th a t in r e la t io n t o w h a t

Page 100 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
M s H o g a n s a y s i n p a r tic u la r.

If I c a n r e a d p a r a g r a p h 1 8 o f h e r

s t a te m e n t . S h e s a y s :
“ A g e n e r a l il lu s tr a t io n o f t h e a p p o i n t m e n t p r o c e s s o f
a C E O a n d /o r a B o a r d M e m b e r d u r in g m y t e n u r e a s
M i n is t e r o f t h e D P E … ”
T h a t is th e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c E n t e r p r is e s .
“ … w a s t h a t, u n d e r t h e d ir e c ti o n o f th e D ir e c t o r
General

of

DPE,

the

DPE

would

conduct

p r o f e s s i o n a l s e a r c h e s , h e a d h u n t c a n d i d a t e s , f o l lo w
10

u p o n r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s b y i n d u s tr y e x p e r ts o r, in
s o m e c a s e s , r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s b y t h e B o a r d . ”
A D e p u t y M i n is te r a t t h e ti m e M r Zu m a a s y o u w o u ld k n o w
w a s Mr G o d o n g w a n a . S h e s a y s t h a t :
“ M r G o d o n g w a n a a n d I w o u l d c o n s t a n t ly e n g a g e o n
t h e s e is s u e s a n d t h e D G w o u l d d r a w o n t h e s k i lls
a n d e x p e r tis e o f s p e c i a lis t s e c to r a l u n it s w i t h i n t h e
D P E w it h r e s p e c t t o s u i t a b l e c a n d id a t e s . ”
She then goes on before I ask you to comment please
M r Zu m a in p a r a g r a p h 1 9 t o s a y :

20

“ O n c e I h a d a p p r o v e d o f t h e c o m p il a ti o n o f a B o a r d ,
I w o u l d s e n d a C a b i n e t d e c is io n m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e
E c o n o m ic S u b - C o m m i t t e e o f C a b i n e t f o r a p p r o v a l ,
a n d t h e n to t h e C a b i n e t f o r fi n a l a p p r o v a l .
M i n is t e r

may

make

a

special

appeal

to

A
the

P r e s i d e n t t o b y p a s s th e S u b - C o m m i t t e e p r o c e s s

Page 101 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
a n d p r o c e e d s tr a i g h t to C a b in e t f o r fi n a l a p p r o v a l o f
m a t t e r s th a t a r e u r g e n t . ”
S h e g o e s i n t o m o r e d e ta il l a t e r w h i c h w e c a n d o b e f o r e y o u
a n s w e r i f y o u w is h b u t d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t o n t h e g e n e r a l
p r o c e s s t h a t M s H o g a n s a y s w a s f o l lo w e d u n d e r h e r t e n u r e a s M in is t e r ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : N o . I t h in k th e – t h e p r o c e s s a s
d e s c r ib e d h e r e th a t is h o w i t is .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t is h o w i t is ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d w h e n y o u s a y h o w i t is , i s

t h a t fo r t h e t i m e d u r i n g w h ic h y o u w e r e P r e s i d e n t o r i n c l u d i n g b e fo r e
and after?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : E v e n b e f o r e a n d t h e r e is o n e –
there is one system that works.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O n e s y s te m ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 s h e s a y s :
“ S u b - C o m m i t te e s o f C a b in e t m e e t e v e r y s e c o n d
w e e k a n d C a b in e t m e e t s i n t h e w e e k f o l l o w i n g t h e
20

Sub-Committee

m e e ti n g .

The

Pr e s id e n t c h a ir s

C a b in e t m e e ti n g s a n d a p p r o v e s t h e a g e n d a d r a w n
u p b y t h e C a b in e t S e c r e t a r i a t , s o h e h a s a d e c i s iv e
role on what goes onto the agenda.”
T h a t m e n ti o n s t h e P r e s i d e n t i n p a r ti c u l a r.
a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s t h e r e o u tl in e d ?

Page 102 of 107

Do you have any comment

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: It is correct.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t is c o r r e c t . T h e n s h e c o n t in u e s
a g a in in p a r a g r a p h 2 0 :
“ A s p a r t o f t h e C a b in e t c o ll e c t iv e , M i n i s t e r s d o ,
h o w e v e r, te n d t o i n v o lv e C a b i n e t i n t h e e x e r c is e o f
t h e ir p o w e r s t o a p p o i n t t h e C E O , b o t h a s t h e
E x e c u t iv e A u t h o r i ty i n te r m s o f t h e P u b l i c Fi n a n c e
Management

Act

and

as

the

shareholder

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e o n b e h a l f o f t h e S ta t e . ”
10

A n d d o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t i n r e g a r d t o th a t q u a l i fi c a t io n
t o t h e p r o c e d u r e t h a t s h e r a is e s ?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: No comment.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S h e th e n s a y s in p a r a g r a p h 2 1 :
“ T h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c E n te r p r is e s c o n d u c t e d
an

assessment

of

the

extent

of

C a b in e t ’s

in v o lv e m e n t in o r d e r t o e s ta b lis h t h e tr e n d a n d t h e
n a t u r e o f it s i n v o lv e m e n t . ”
S h e t h e n s p e a k s o f a r e v i e w. S h e s a y s :
“ To t h i s e n d , a r e v i e w w a s c o n d u c t e d o f p r e v i o u s
20

d e c is i o n s o f C a b i n e t s p a n n i n g f r o m A p r i l 2 0 0 2 t o
F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 9 r e la t in g t o a p p o i n t m e n ts o f C E O s o f
a v a r i e ty o f S O E s .

T h e r e s u l ts s h o w e d th a t

C a b in e t ’s in v o lv e m e n t v a r ie d b e tw e e n a p p r o v a l ( te n
ti m e s ) , c o n c u r r e n c e ( s ix ti m e s ) a n d n o ti n g ( tw ic e )
o f th e r e le v a n t M i n i s te r ’s d e c i s i o n , i n d ic a ti n g t h a t

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
e v e r y C E O a p p o i n t m e n t i s d e a l t w it h o n a c a s e b y
c a s e b a s i s h a v in g c o n s id e r e d t h e s iz e , i m p o r t a n c e
a n d c i r c u ms t a n c e s f a c in g th e S O E a t th e t i m e o f
m a k i n g t h e a p p o in t m e n t . ”
P e r h a p s i n f a ir n e s s t o y o u I s h o u l d a s k a n i n tr o d u c t o r y
q u e s t io n . D o y o u k n o w a n y t h in g o f t h a t s u r v e y ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : W h ic h s u r v e y ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

She refers to a survey or a

r e v ie w m o r e a c c u r a te ly. S h e s a id :
10

“There

was

a

r e v ie w

conducted

of

previous

d e c is i o n s o f C a b i n e t s p a n n i n g t h e p e r i o d A p r il 2 0 0 2
to February 2009.”
D o y o u k n o w a n y th i n g o f s u c h a r e v ie w ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : R e v ie w o f t h e S O E s ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . A p p o in t m e n t – w e ll it is a
r e v ie w o f p r e v io u s d e c is i o n s o f C a b i n e t .

In o t h e r w o r d s w h a t w a s

r e v ie w e d w e r e t h e d e c is i o n s o f C a b i n e t r e l a ti n g t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f
C E O s o f a v a r i e ty o f S t a te O w n e d E n t it i e s . S o i t is a r e v i e w o f C a b i n e t
d e c is i o n s b u t t h o s e d e c is io n s o f C a b i n e t r e l a te d to a p p o in t m e n ts o f
20

CEOs of SOEs.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : T h e y w o u ld – I m e a n t h e r e v ie w
o f d e c is i o n s n o t a p a r ti c u l a r d e c is io n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o n o t o f a p a r t ic u l a r d e c i s i o n .
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t j u s t – i t a p p e a r s th a t t h e

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
r e v ie w w a s ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y – m a y b e M r Pr e to r i u s – m a y b e – m a y b e le t m e

p u t i t th is w a y. I t h i n k I u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u – y o u w a n t to p u t t o h i m .
I t l o o k s l ik e w h a t M s H o g a n i s t a lk i n g a b o u t i s t h a t t h e r e w a s a r e v ie w
o f h o w d e c is i o n s to a p p o in t C E O s o f S O E S h a d b e e n ta k e n b y C a b i n e t
o v e r a c e r t a in p e r io d o f y e a r s a n d i t l o o k s li k e s h e i s s a y i n g t h a t w a s a
r e v ie w o f h o w t h o s e d e c is io n s w e r e t a k e n d u r i n g th e p e r i o d A p r i l 2 0 0 2
to February 2009.
Do you know anything about such a review to see how
10

C a b in e t h a d b e e n m a k in g th o s e d e c is io n s b e t w e e n t h a t p e r i o d – 2 0 0 2
to 2009?
MR JACOB GEDLEYIHLEKISA ZUMA: I – I do not …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w a n y t h i n g a b o u t i t ?
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : I d o n o t r e c a ll i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : F o r n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R J A C O B G E D L E Y I H L E K I S A Z U M A : A b s o l u t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t m i g h t h a v e b e e n a d e p a r t m e n t a l r e v ie w t h a t m i g h t

20

n o t h a v e i n v o lv e d m a y b e t h e C a b i n e t M r Pr e to r i u s .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E: C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E: I a m a b o u t to o v e r r u l e m y o w n c li e n t . I t h i n k
it is – I w o u ld lik e u s to a d j o u r n f o r th e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E: I t is w i t h y o u r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m u c h ti m e ?
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E: I f h e is n o t – n o f o r t h e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h f o r th e d a y ?
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E: I f i t is fi n e w i th t h e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: No.
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E: I a m o v e r r u li n g t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

We

can

adjourn.

Yo u

o v e r r u li n g

th e

former

President?
A D V M U Z I S I K H A K A N E: I t is t h e o n ly ti m e I w i ll e v e r h a v e t o d o th is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr P r e t o r iu s a n y p r o b l e m ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I h a v e n o o b j e c t io n . It h a s b e e n
a s tr e n u o u s d a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l o n g d a y, y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

F a r fr o m m e t o j u d g e i t s e e m s

that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t w o u l d b e a p p r o p r i a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To t a k e a b r e a k .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W e ll I m u s t a ls o s a y e a r l i e r o n I h a d g iv e n

Page 106 of 107

16 JULY 2019 – DAY 134
in s t r u c t i o n s t h a t t h e a ir c o n d i ti o n e r s h o u l d b e p u t o n . It w a s q u i t e h o t .
I d o n o t f e e l l ik e i t is o n n o w. I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t in s tr u c ti o n
w a s n o t c a r r i e d o u t o r w h e t h e r i t i s j u s t t h a t th e h o u s e i f f u ll e r t h a n
n o r m a l . A lr i g h t . W e – w e w i ll a d j o u r n fo r th e d a y a n d w e w i ll s t a r t a t
10 tomorrow morning. We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 7 J U LY 2 0 1 9

Page 107 of 107