C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G 10 16 APRIL 2019 D AY 8 4 20 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 PROCEEDINGS HELD ON 16 APRIL 2019 C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d M o r n i n g M r Pr e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g C h a i r. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . I a m g o i n g t o d e liv e r m y d e c is io n in t h e a p p lic a ti o n b r o u g h t b y Mr M o y a n e f o r le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r Gordhan. I t w il l n o t b e i m m e d i a te ly o r a t y p e d v e r s io n w il l n o t b e i m m e d i a t e ly a v a il a b l e b u t i t w il l b e a v a il a b le in t h e n e x t fe w d a y s . S o – b u t o th e r w i s e i t w il l b e s u b j e c t t o o n e q u a l i fi c a t io n a f u l l d e c is io n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th e l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s o f M r M o y a n e a r e p r e s e n t a n d t h e le g a l r e p r e s e n t a t iv e of Mr Gordhan have asked to be excus ed. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M a y I b e s e a t d u r i n g … CHAIRPERSON : Ye s y o u m a y b e s e a t e d t h a n k y o u . T h is i s a n a p p lic a ti o n b r o u g h t b y M r T h o m a s S w a b ih i M o y a n e f o r l e a v e to c r o s s e x a m in e M r P J G o r d h a n t h e M i n is t e r o f P u b lic E n te r p r is e s w h o s u b m i tt e d a s t a t e m e n t in t h i s c o m m i s s i o n la s t y e a r a n d s u b s e q u e n t ly g a v e e v i d e n c e . I s h a l l r e fe r t o M r M o y a n e a s th e a p p l ic a n t . A c o p y o f M r G o r d h a n ’s s ta t e m e n t w a s s e n t t o th e a p p lic a n t b y th e s e c r e t a r y o f 20 t h e c o m m i s s io n i n a c c o r d a n c e w i th R u l e 3 . 3 o f th e R u le s o f t h is c o m m i s s io n . a p p lic a n t. A n o t ic e c o n te m p l a te d i n R u l e 3 . 3 w a s a l s o s e n t to th e I n s u p p o r t o f h is a p p l ic a ti o n th e a p p li c a n t d e l iv e r e d a f o u n d i n g a ff id a v i t w i t h e x te n s iv e a n n e x u r e s a s w e l l a s a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t a ls o w i t h a n n e x u r e s . M r G o r d h a n o p p o s e s t h e a p p li c a n t ’s a p p lic a ti o n i n s u p p o r t o f h i s o p p o s i ti o n . Page 2 of 136 M r G o r d h a n d e l iv e r e d a n 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 o p p o s in g a ffi d a v i t w i th e x t e n s i v e a n n e x u r e s a s w e l l . Thereafter the a p p lic a n t d e l iv e r e d a s h o r t r e p l y i n g a ffi d a v i t w i t h a n n e x u r e s . In d u e c o u r s e t h e a p p lic a n t’s c o u n s e l a n d M r G o r d h a n ’s c o u n s e l d e liv e r e d w r i t t e n s u b m is s io n s o n t h e a p p li c a n t ’s a p p l ic a t i o n fo r l e a v e t o c r o s s e x a m in e a n d M r G o r d h a n ’s o p p o s i ti o n t h e r e o f . I s u b s e q u e n tly h a d o r a l a r g u m e n t p r e s e n t e d b y c o u n s e l f o r t h e a p p l ic a n t M r M p o f u S C c o u n s e l f o r Mr G o r d h a n Ms L e R o u x a n d s o m e l i mi t e d c o m m e n t s b y t h e h e a d o f t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s le g a l t e a m M r P r e t o r iu s S C . I a m i n d e b t e d t o a ll c o u n s e l fo r t h e ir w r i tt e n a n d o r a l a r g u m e n t. A f t e r h e a r in g a r g u m e n t I 10 r e s e r v e d my d e c i s i o n a n d i n d ic a te d th a t I w o u l d a n n o u n c e i t d u e c o u r s e . S u b je c t t o o n e q u a l if ic a ti o n t h a t I w il l d e a l w i t h l a te r t h i s is m y d e c is i o n . I n o r d e r t o p r o p e r c o n s i d e r t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s a p p li c a t io n it is n e c e s s a r y t o f ir s t r e fe r t o t h e l e g a l fr a m e w o r k w i th i n w h i c h a n a p p lic a ti o n f o r le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e a w i t n e s s b e f o r e t h i s c o m m is s i o n m u s t b e e v a l u a te d in o r d e r t o d e c i d e w h e t h e r l e a v e s h o u ld b e g r a n t e d or refused. T h e le g a l Fr a m e w o r k T h i s c o m m is s i o n w a s a p p o i n t e d i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 8 4 o f T h e C o n s t i tu t io n . 20 Th e C o m m i s s i o n s A c t h a s b e e n m a d e a p p lic a b l e t o i t . C e r t a in r e g u la t io n s h a v e b e e n p r o m u l g a t e d t h a t a p p ly to i t . N e i t h e r t h e C o n s t i tu t io n n o r th e C o m m i s s io n s A c t c o n ta in s a n y e x p r e s s p r o v is io n r e l a ti n g t o t h e c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n o f w i t n e s s e s b y a n y b o d y a d v e r s e ly a ffe c t e d b y a n y s t a te m e n ts o r e v id e n c e o f a w i tn e s s in a j u d ic i a l c o m m i s s io n o f in q u ir y s u c h a s t h i s o n e . H o w e v e r R e g u l a ti o n 8 3 o f t h e R e g u l a ti o n s a p p l ic a b l e t o t h is c o m m i s s io n p r o v i d e s a n d I q u o t e : Page 3 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 “ An y w it n e s s a p p e a r in g b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s io n m a y be cross -examined by a person o n ly if the C h a ir p e r s o n p e r m it s s u c h c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n s h o u ld h e d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y a n d i n th e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f th e f u n c t i o n o f t h e c o m m is s i o n . ” R e g u l a ti o n 1 5 r e a d s : “The c o m m is s i o n may – the c o m m i s s io n may d e t e r m i n e i ts o w n p r o c e d u r e s .” P u r s u a n t t o R e g u la t io n 1 5 th e c o m m is s i o n h a s d e te r mi n e d i ts o w n 10 r u l e s . R u l e 3 .1 o f th e r u l e s o f t h i s c o m m is s io n p r o v id e s i n e ff e c t t h a t a s a g e n e r a l r u l e t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l te a m b e a r s t h e o v e r a ll r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o p r e s e n t th e e v i d e n c e o f w i t n e s s e s to th e c o m m i s s i o n . T h i s is s u b j e c t t o a n y t h i n g to t h e c o n tr a r y c o n t a i n e d in t h e r u l e s o r s u b j e c t t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n ’s d ir e c t io n s i n r e g a r d t o a n y s p e c i fi c witness. R u l e 3 .3 s e ts o u t w h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m is r e q u ir e d t o d o i f t h e c o m m is s i o n is i n p o s s e s s i o n o f a s t a t e m e n t b y w i t n e s s w h o is t o g iv e e v i d e n c e b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s i o n w h e n h i s o r h e r e v i d e n c e i m p l ic a t e s o r m a y i m p l ic a t e a n o t h e r p e r s o n . 20 R u l e 3 . 3 r e a d s a n d I q u o te : “ I f t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s le g a l te a m in t e n d s t o p r e s e n t t o t h e c o m m is s i o n a w i t n e s s w h o s e e v id e n c e i m p lic a t e s o r m a y i m p lic a t e a n o t h e r p e r s o n i t m u s t t h r o u g h th e secretary of the commission n o t i fy that person [i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n ] i n w r i t i n g w i t h i n a r e a s o n a b l e Page 4 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 ti m e b e fo r e t h e w i t n e s s g iv e s e v id e n c e . 3 .3 . 1 . Th a t h e o r s h e is o r m a y b e i m p li c a te d b y th e witness’ evidence. 3 .3 . 2 I n w h a t w a y h e o r s h e is o r m a y b e i m p li c a t e d a n d f u r n is h h i m o r h e r w i t h t h e w it n e s s ’ s t a te m e n t o r r e l e v a n t p o r ti o n s o f t h e s t a t e m e n t . 3 .3 . 3 O f t h e d a t e w h e n a n d t h e v e n u e w h e r e th e w i t n e s s w i ll g iv e e v i d e n c e – w i ll g i v e th e e v id e n c e . 3 .3 . 4 10 T h a t h e o r s h e m a y a t te n d t h e h e a r in g a t w h ic h th e w i t n e s s g iv e s e v id e n c e . 3 .3 . 5 T h a t h e o r s h e m a y b e a s s i s te d b y a le g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e w h e n t h e w i tn e s s g iv e s e v i d e n c e . 3 .3 . 6 T h a t i f h e o r s h e w is h e s 3 .3 . 6 .1 To g iv e e v i d e n c e h i ms e lf o r h e r s e lf . 3 .3 . 6 .2 To c a ll a n y w i tn e s s t o g iv e e v i d e n c e o n h is or her behalf or 3 3 .6 . 3 To c r o s s - e x a m in e t h e w it n e s s h e o r s h e m u s t w i t h i n t w o w e e k s fr o m th e d a te o f n o tic e a p p ly in w r i t in g to t h e c o m m i s s i o n f o r l e a v e t o d o s o a n d 20 3 .3 . 7 That th e C h a ir p e r s o n w i ll decide th e a p p lic a ti o n ” I s h a l l r e f e r t o t h e p r o c e d u r e s s e t o u t in t h e p r o v is io n s o f th is r u l e a s the Rule 3.3 procedure. I t w il l b e s e e n fr o m t h e i n tr o d u c t o r y p a r t o f R u le 3 . 3 t h a t th e R u l e 3 . 3 p r o c e d u r e o n ly a p p l ie s a n d I q u o t e : Page 5 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 “ I f t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s le g a l te a m in t e n d s t o p r e s e n t t o t h e c o m m is s i o n a w i t n e s s w h o s e e v id e n c e i m p lic a t e s o r m a y i m p l ic a te a n o t h e r p e r s o n .” T h i s m e a n s th a t t h e R u l e 3 . 3 p r o c e d u r e d o e s n o t a p p ly if t h e e v id e n c e o f th e w it n e s s p r o p o s e d t o b e p r e s e n t e d t o t h e c o m m i s s io n d o e s n o t o r w il l n o t i m p l ic a t e t h e p e r s o n w h o s e e k s le a v e t o c r o s s e x a m in e th e w i t n e s s .” The purpose of the phrase and I quote: “ Ev i d e n c e t h a t m a y i m p lic a t e a n o th e r p e r s o n ” 10 I n t h e i n tr o d u c t o r y p a r t o f R u l e 3 . 3 is t o e n s u r e th a t w h e r e th e c o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l te a m is n o t c e r ta in w h e t h e r t h e e v i d e n c e o f a w i t n e s s i m p li c a t e s a p a r ti c u la r p e r s o n b u t th in k t h a t i t is a r g u a b l e t h a t it d o e s th e y s e n d a R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e to t h a t p e r s o n a n d le a v e it t o h i m o r h e r t o t a k e a v i e w w h e t h e r o r n o t h e o r s h e is i m p li c a t e d o r w i ll b e i m p l ic a t e d b y th e w i tn e s s ’ e v id e n c e . In b o t h c a s e s t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s le g a l t e a m w ill b e o b l ig e d t o s e n d t h e a ffe c t e d p e r s o n a R u le 3 . 3 N o t ic e . O n c e a p e r s o n h a s r e c e iv e d a R u l e 3 . 3 N o tic e h e o r s h e m u s t t a k e h is 20 o r h e r o w n v i e w w h e t h e r h e o r s h e is i m p l i c a t e d a n d if s o w h a t s te p s h e o r s h e w a n t s t o ta k e . R u l e 3 .3 . 6 m a k e s p r o v is io n f o r a p e r s o n w h o fo r e x a m p le s e e k s t o c r o s s - e x a m in e s u c h a w i t n e s s t o a p p ly t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n f o r le a v e t o do so. I f t h e p e r s o n c o n c e r n e d d o e s n o t w is h t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e th e witness he or she is not obliged to do anything. However even where a Page 6 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 p e r s o n h a s t a k e n t h e v ie w t h a t h e o r s h e is n o t i m p l ic a t e d o r h a s n o t d o n e a n y th i n g p u r s u a n t to th e r e c e i p t o f a R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e c o m m is s i o n s ti ll h a s p o w e r u n d e r b o t h R e g u l a t i o n 1 0 1 0 .6 a s w e ll a s u n d e r R u l e 3 .1 0 . S h o u l d h e c h o o s e to d o s o t o d ir e c t s u c h a p e r s o n t o r e s p o n d to a l l e g a ti o n s m a d e a g a in s t h i m o r h e r. I n t e r m s o f R e g u l a ti o n 1 0 .6 th e C h a ir p e r s o n m a y is s u e a d i r e c t iv e d ir e c t in g o r r e q u ir i n g a n y p e r s o n t o d e p o s e t o a n a ff id a v i t a n d d e a l w i t h c e r t a i n is s u e s o r d ir e c ti n g t h e p e r s o n t o a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d b e q u e s ti o n e d o n m a tt e r s f a ll in g w i t h in t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o f 10 t h e c o m m i s s io n . R u l e 3 . 3 .6 p r o v i d e s th a t t h e R u l e 3 .3 N o ti c e m u s t n o ti fy t h e i m p li c a t e d person that if he or she wishes to cross -examine the witness he or she m u s t w i t h i n t w o w e e k s f r o m t h e d a t e o f th e n o t ic e a p p ly in w r it i n g t o t h e c o m m i s s io n f o r le a v e t o d o s o . O n c e t h e s e c r e t a r y o f t h e c o m m i s s io n h a s r e c e iv e d a n a p p l ic a ti o n f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e h e o r s h e m u s t p l a c e t h e a p p li c a t io n b e fo r e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d g iv e a c o p y t h e r e o f to t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m . T h e C h a ir p e r s o n m a y t h e n is s u e d ir e c t io n s a s t o t h e fu t u r e c o n d u c t o f t h e a p p li c a t io n i n c lu d i n g g i v i n g t h e w i tn e s s th e o p p o r t u n i ty t o o p p o s e t h e a p p li c a t io n b y d e liv e r in g a n 20 a n s w e r in g a ffi d a v i t . T h e f ir s t i m p o r t a n t p o in t t o m a k e i n r e g a r d t o a n a p p l ic a ti o n f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e a w i t n e s s is t h a t i t m u s t b e m a d e b y a p e r s o n w h o is o r m a y b e i m p l ic a t e d i n t h e w i tn e s s s t a t e m e n t o r e v i d e n c e . I n o th e r w o r d s h e o r s h e m u s t b e a b l e to s ta t e t h a t h e o r s h e is i m p l ic a te d b y t h e w i t n e s s c o n c e r n e d in h i s o r h e r s t a t e m e n t . I f a p e r s o n i s n o t i m p li c a t e d Page 7 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 o r c a n n o t b e s a id t o b e i m p l ic a te d i n a w it n e s s s t a t e m e n t o r i n th e w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e h e o r s h e is d is q u a li fi e d fr o m m a k i n g a n a p p l ic a ti o n for leave to cross -examine. F u r th e r m o r e a n a p p l ic a n t f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e m u s t id e n ti fy t h o s e p a r ts o f a w i t n e s s s ta t e m e n t w h ic h h e is s h e s a y s i m p li c a t e h i m o r h e r. H e o r s h e m a y d is a g r e e w i t h t h e c o n te n ts o f a R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e in t h e s e n s e t h a t w h i le s u c h a n o tic e m a y s t a t e o r s u g g e s t th a t h e o r s h e is o r m a y b e i m p l ic a t e d i n t h e w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t o r e v i d e n c e o r is o r m a y b e i m p l ic a te d b y a c e r t a i n p a r t o r p a r t s o f a w i t n e s s s ta t e m e n t 10 h e m a y t a k e t h e v i e w t h a t h e is n o t i m p l ic a t e d a s s u g g e s t e d o r a t a ll . R u l e 3 . 4 is t h e r u l e th a t g o v e r n s t h e s u b m is s i o n o f a n a p p lic a ti o n f o r le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e a n d i t s ’ c o n t e n t . T h e R u l e r e a d s a n d I q u o te : “ An a p p li c a t io n in t e r m s o f R u l e 3 .3 . 6 a b o v e m u s t b e s u b m i tt e d in w r it i n g to the s e c r e ta r y of the c o m m i s s io n w i th i n f o u r te e n c a l e n d a r d a y s fr o m t h e d a t e o f t h e n o tic e r e f e r r e d t o i n R u le 3 .3 . The a p p lic a ti o n m u s t b e a c c o m p a n i e d b y a s t a t e m e n t fr o m the i m p l ic a t e d person responding to the w i t n e s s ’ s t a te m e n t in s o f a r a s i t i m p lic a t e s h i m o r h e r. 20 T h e s t a t e m e n t m u s t m a k e i t c l e a r w h a t p a r ts o f t h e w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n i e d a n d th e g r o u n d s u p o n w h i c h t h o s e p a r ts a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n ie d .” T h e s e c o n d s e n te n c e o f R u le 3 . 4 o b li g e s a n a p p lic a n t fo r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e to m a k e s u r e t h a t h is o r h e r a p p l ic a ti o n is a n d I q u o te : Page 8 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 “ Ac c o m p a n i e d b y a s t a t e m e n t fr o m t h e i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e w i tn e s s s ta t e m e n t i n s o f a r a s i t i m p l ic a t e s h i m o r h e r.” T h e w o r d ‘ fr o m ’ in th e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e o f R u l e 3 . 4 m u s t b e r e a d a s meaning by: “ W i th t h e r e s u l t th a t t h e s ta t e m e n t t h a t i s s a i d t o b e a s ta t e m e n t fr o m a n i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n is a s t a te m e n t b y th e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n .” The part of Rule 3.4 which reads and I quote: 10 “ R e s p o n d i n g t o th e w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t i n s o f a r a s i t i m p l ic a t e s h i m o r h e r.” Q u a li f i e s th e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n ’s s t a t e m e n t t h a t m u s t a c c o m p a n y th e a p p lic a ti o n f o r le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e . T h a t p a r t o f th e fir s t s e n t e n c e o f R u l e 3 .4 r e fe r r e d to in t h e p r e c e d i n g p a r a g r a p h m u s t b e r e a d w i t h t h e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f R u l e 3 .4 . T h e t h i r d a n d l a s t s e n te n c e o f R u l e 3 . 4 r e a d s a n d I q u o t e : “ T h e s t a te m e n t m u s t m a k e i t c l e a r t h a t is th e s t a te m e n t b y t h e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n – m u s t m a k e i t c le a r 20 what parts of th e w it n e s s statement are d is p u te d o r d e n i e d a n d th e g r o u n d s u p o n w h ic h th o s e p a r t s a r e d is p u te d o r d e n i e d . ” T h i s s e n t e n c e r e q u ir e s t h e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n ’s s t a t e m e n t to m a k e i t c le a r w h a t p a r ts o f t h e w i t n e s s ’ s t a t e m e n t a r e d e n i e d o r d is p u te d a n d t h e g r o u n d s u p o n w h i c h t h o s e p a r ts a r e d i s p u te d o r d e n i e d . T h e p u r p o s e o f t h e s e c o n d a n d t h e t h i r d s e n t e n c e s o f R u l e 3 . 4 is t o Page 9 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 e n s u r e t h a t a n i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n d o e s n o t s i m p l y p r o v id e a b a r e d e n i a l t o a w i t n e s s ’ s t a t e m e n t th a t i m p l ic a te s h i m o r h e r o r to a p a r t o f a w i t n e s s ’ s t a te m e n t th a t i m p li c a t e s h i m o r h e r. R e a d t o g e t h e r t h e s e t w o s e n t e n c e s r e q u ir e o r o b l i g e a n i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n t o d o th r e e th in g s n a m e l y : a . I d e n ti fy th e p a r ts o f th e w it n e s s ’ s t a te m e n t t h a t h e o r s h e a c c e p ts i m p li c a t e h i m o r h e r. b . R e s p o n d to t h e p a r ts o f t h e w i tn e s s ’ s t a te m e n t t h a t i m p lic a t e h i m o r h e r b y s t a ti n g w h e t h e r h e o r s h e a d m i ts o r d e n ie s t h e m a n d 10 s e t ti n g o u t h is o r h e r v e r s io n i n r e g a r d t o t h e i n c i d e n t o r e v e n t o r a l le g a ti o n a n d c . E n s u r e t h a t h is o r h e r r e s p o n s e o r s t a te m e n t o r a ffi d a v i t p r o v id e s t h e b a s is o r g r o u n d s u p o n w h ic h h e o r s h e d is p u t e s o r d e n i e s t h e v e r s i o n o r a l le g a ti o n o r e v id e n c e i m p l i c a ti n g h i m o r h e r a s r e fl e c t e d in t h e w it n e s s ’ s t a t e m e n t o r e v i d e n c e . I t s h o u l d b e c l e a r f r o m t h e a b o v e th a t p a r t o f t h e id e a b e h i n d R u le 3 .4 is t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h o m u s t d e c i d e th e a p p l ic a ti o n f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e is f u l ly a p p r is e d o f w h a t i s c o m m o n c a u s e b e t w e e n t h e r e s p e c ti v e v e r s i o n s o f th e w i t n e s s a n d t h e i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n o r p e r s o n s 20 a n d w h e r e th e a r e a s o f d iv e r g e n c e b e t w e e n t h e m a r e . T h i s e n a b l e s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n to h a v e a fu l l p ic t u r e o f t h e p o s i ti o n w h e n h e c o n s i d e r s t h e a p p lic a ti o n f o r le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e s o t h a t h e c a n t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t t h e e x t e n t o f t h e d iv e r g e n c e i n th e t w o p e r s o n s v e r s i o n s i n d e t e r m i n i n g h o w m u c h t i m e w ill b e a p p r o p r i a t e to a l l o c a te f o r t h e c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n s h o u l d h e g r a n t l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e . Page 10 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 I f c r o s s - e x a mi n a ti o n i s g r a n t e d i t ta k e s p l a c e w i t h i n th e c o n t e x t o f t h e w i t n e s s ’ v e r s io n a s w e ll a s t h e v e r s io n o f t h e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n a n d th e g r o u n d s o r b a s i s u p o n w h i c h t h e w i t n e s s s t a te m e n t is o r c e r t a i n p a r t s o f t h e s ta t e m e n t a r e d e n i e d o r d i s p u t e d i n s o fa r a s t h e s t a te m e n t i m p l ic a t e s t h e a p p li c a n t fo r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e . A s a lr e a d y s t a t e d e a r l ie r R e g u la t io n 8 . 3 p r o v i d e s a n d I q u o te : “ An y w it n e s s a p p e a r in g b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s io n m a y be cross -examined by a person o n ly if the C h a ir p e r s o n p e r m it s s u c h c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n s h o u ld 10 h e d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y a n d i n th e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f th e f u n c t i o n o f t h e c o m m is s i o n . ” Rule 3.7 then reads and I quote: “ I n a c c o r d a n c e w it h R u l e – R e g u l a ti o n 8 . 3 t h e r e is n o r ig h t to c r o s s - e x a m in e a witness b e fo r e the c o m m i s s io n b u t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n m a y p e r mi t c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n s h o u l d h e d e e m it n e c e s s a r y a n d i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e w o r k o f t h e c o m m is s i o n to d o s o .” A n d R u le 3 .6 r e a d s : “ I n d e c i d i n g a n a p p l ic a ti o n c o n t e m p la t e d i n R u l e 20 3 .3 . 6 t h e C h a ir p e r s o n m a y i n h is d is c r e t i o n a n d o n such terms and c o n d i t io n s as he may deem a p p r o p r i a t e g r a n t l e a v e t o a n i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n t o a n d th e n s e e c r o s s - e x a m i n e t h e w i t n e s s i m p l ic a t i n g h i m o r h e r.” R u l e 3 . 7 b a s ic a lly s a y s t h e s a m e th i n g a s R e g u l a ti o n 8 . 3 . Page 11 of 136 What 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 R e g u l a ti o n 8 . 8 . 3 a n d R u l e 3 . 7 m e a n is t h a t i n d e t e r m i n i n g w h e th e r a n a p p lic a ti o n for le a v e to cross -examine should be granted th e C h a ir p e r s o n m u s t a s k t h e q u e s ti o n w h e t h e r a n d I q u o te : “ I t i s n e c e s s a r y a n d in t h e b e s t in t e r e s t o f t h e f u n c t i o n o r w o r k o f th e c o m m i s s io n to ” G r a n t t h e a p p l ic a n t l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e th e p a r t ic u l a r w i t n e s s w h o m h e o r s h e w is h e s to c r o s s e x a m i n e . I f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t a k e s t h e v i e w t h a t it is h e g r a n ts l e a v e . g r a n t le a v e . 10 I f h e t a k e s t h e v i e w th a t i t is n o t h e d o e s T h e r e f o r e th e te s t f o r d e te r m i n in g th e m e r i ts o f a n a p p lic a ti o n f o r le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e i s w h e t h e r i t is n e c e s s a r y a n d i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e fu n c t io n o f t h e c o m m i s s io n f o r t h e C h a i r p e r s o n to grant leave. I t c a n b e s e e n fr o m t h e a b o v e d is c u s s i o n o f t h e R u le s o f th e c o m m i s s io n t h a t t h e f ir s t r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t a n a p p lic a n t f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e m u s t s a ti s f y i s t h a t t h e – i s t h a t t h e s t a t e m e n t o r e v i d e n c e o f t h e w it n e s s w h o m h e o r s h e w is h e s t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e i m p l ic a t e s h i m o r h e r. I f h e o r s h e f a ils t o s h o w t h is h is o r h e r a p p lic a ti o n is d e f e c t iv e a n d m a y b e d i s m is s e d o r w i ll b e d is m is s e d . I f a n a p p l ic a n t f o r l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e s u c c e e d s i n s h o w i n g t h a t h e 20 o r s h e i s i m p l ic a te d i n t h e s t a te m e n t o r e v i d e n c e o f th e w i tn e s s t h e n h e o r s h e m u s t s ta t e i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th e s e c o n d a n d t h ir d s e n t e n c e s o r Rule 3.4 what he or she admits in the witness statement or evidence a n d w h a t h e o r s h e d e n ie s o r d is p u te s s e t o u t h is o r h e r f u l l v e r s i o n o f t h e i n c id e n t o r t o t h e a ll e g a t io n a n d s t a t e w h a t t h e g r o u n d s a r e f o r d e n y i n g o r d is p u ti n g t h e w it n e s s s t a t e m e n t o r p a r t o r p a r ts t h e r e o f . Page 12 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 H e o r s h e m u s t t h e n s h o w th a t i t w o u l d b e n e c e s s a r y a n d in t h e b e s t in t e r e s t o f t h e f u n c ti o n o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n f o r t h e C h a i r p e r s o n to g r a n t him or her leave to cross -examine the particular witness. I f h e o r s h e s u c c e e d s i n s h o w i n g a l l t h i s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n g r a n ts h i m le a v e o r m a y g r a n t h i m l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e t h e w it n e s s i f h e o r s h e f a il s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w il l o r m a y d is m is s t h e a p p li c a t io n . R u l e 3 .6 m a k e s i t c l e a r th a t i n d e c i d i n g a n a p p li c a t io n f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n e x e r c is e s a d i s c r e ti o n . T h a t d is c r e t io n must 10 be e x e r c is e d ju d ic i o u s ly w i th due regard to all relevant c ir c u m s ta n c e s . Fr o m t h e a b o v e a n a ly s is o f t h e p r o v is i o n s o f R e g u la t io n 8 .3 a n d v a r io u s r u l e s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h a t e m e r g e s is t h a t s o m e o f t h e i m p o r ta n t r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t a p e r s o n w h o a p p l i e s f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e a w i t n e s s b e f o r e th is c o m m i s s i o n m u s t s a ti s fy t h a t m u s t d e a l w i t h is t h a t t h e r e is n o r i g h t t o c r o s s - e x a mi n a ti o n b u t th e C h a ir p e r s o n m a y g r a n t le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e i n c e r t a i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s . T h e w it n e s s i m p l ic a t e s th e a p p l ic a n t f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a mi n e . The a p p lic a n t m u s t c le a r ly i d e n ti fy t h e p a r t o r p a r ts o f th e w i tn e s s s t a te m e n t e v i d e n c e w h i c h i m p l ic a te o r i m p l ic a t e s h i m o r h e r. 20 T h e a p p lic a n t f o r l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e m u s t s t a te w h e th e r h e a d m i ts o r d e n i e s o r d is p u te s t h e w i t n e s s a ll e g a ti o n s o r e v i d e n c e t h a t i m p lic a t e o r i m p li c a t e s h i m o r h e r a n d h e o r s h e m u s t s e t o u t h is o r h e r v e r s i o n in r e l a ti o n t o a n y a ll e g a t io n o r e v id e n c e b y th e w i t n e s s o r i n r e l a ti o n t o e a c h i n c id e n t a n d t h e g r o u n d s u p o n w h ic h h e o r s h e d e n ie s o r d i s p u t e s o r q u a l i fi e s th e a l le g a ti o n m a d e o r e v i d e n c e g iv e n b y t h e w i t n e s s . Page 13 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 The C h a ir p e r s o n e x e r c is e th a t d i s c r e ti o n r e fu s i n g a n a p p li c a t io n f o r le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a mi n e . in g r a n ti n g or In determining w h e t h e r t o g r a n t o r r e f u s e a n a p p li c a t io n f o r l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n c o n s i d e r s t h e t e s t t o w h ic h r e f e r e n c e h a s b e e n m a d e above. I n p r i n c i p le – a p r i n c ip le t h a t is n o t e x p r e s s ly a r ti c u l a te d o r c o v e r e d b y t h e r u l e s b u t is o f o b v io u s a p p l ic a t i o n i s th a t a n a p p lic a n t f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e m u s t t a k e th e c o m m i s s i o n i n to h i s o r h e r c o n fi d e n c e a n d d is c l o s e h i s o r h e r tr u e a n d f u l l v e r s i o n i n r e g a r d to a n y 10 a l le g a ti o n m a d e o r e v id e n c e g iv e n b y th e w i t n e s s th a t i m p li c a t e s h i m o r h e r. O b v io u s ly a n a p p lic a n t f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e o r f a ils t o t a k e th e c o m m i s s io n in t o h is o r h e r c o n fi d e n c e a n d d is c lo s e h is tr u e v e r s i o n o f m a tt e r s r is k s h a v i n g t h a t f a c to r t a k i n g i n to a c c o u n t a g a in s t h i m o r h e r i n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n c o n s id e r in g th e a p p lic a ti o n fo r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e . D e s p i te t h e f a c t t h a t t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s a ff i d a v i ts w e r e d e p o s e d t o in s u p p o r t o f a n a p p l ic a t i o n f o r le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e th e y r e f le c t t h e a p p lic a n t’s a t ti t u d e a s b e in g t h a t h e h a s a r i g h t to c r o s s - e x a m in e M r 20 Gordhan. T h i s p o s it i o n is a ls o r e fl e c t e d i n t h e a p p li c a n t ’s c o u n s e l ’s w r i t t e n s u b m i s s i o n s . H o w e v e r t o h is c r e d i t w h e n M r M p o fu S C w h o a p p e a r e d fo r t h e a p p l ic a n t a s I h a v e i n d ic a te d p r e s e n t e d h i s o r a l a r g u m e n t o n b e h a l f o f t h e a p p li c a n t h e q u i te c o r r e c t ly m a d e i t c le a r t h a t h e a c c e p t e d t h a t i n th is c o m m i s s i o n t h e a p p li c a n t h a s n o r i g h t to Page 14 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 c r o s s - e x a m in e b u t h a s t o a p p l y f o r le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e a n d w il l o n ly h a v e t h a t r i g h t i f t h e C h a ir p e r s o n g r a n ts h i m l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e . M r M p o f u a l s o a c c e p t e d t h a t t h e a p p l ic a n t i s r e q u i r e d t o a ls o g iv e h is v e r s i o n i n r e g a r d t o m a t t e r s i n w h i c h h e i s i m p li c a t e d i n M r G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t o r e v i d e n c e . I t is n o w n e c e s s a r y t o c o n s i d e r o r t o a p p ly th e r e q u i r e m e n ts t h a t I h a v e d is c u s s e d a b o v e t o t h e a p p l ic a ti o n b e fo r e m e . I n a p p l y i n g t h e r u l e s a s d i s c u s s e d a b o v e t o t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s a p p l ic a ti o n a n d Mr G o r d h a n ’s o p p o s it i o n o f th a t a p p lic a ti o n th e fir s t is s u e fo r th e a p p lic a n t 10 is w h e t h e r a s r e q u ir e d b y R u l e 3 .3 t h e a p p l ic a n t h a s s h o w n t h a t h e i s i m p l i c a t e d i n Mr G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t o r e v id e n c e . I n r e s p e c t o f m a n y is s u e s i n h is f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t w h e r e t h e a p p lic a n t a r t ic u l a te s is s u e s in r e s p e c t o f w h i c h h e s e e k s l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n t h e a p p li c a n t h a s n o t s h o w n th a t h e h a s i m p l ic a t e d Mr G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t o r e v i d e n c e . H o w e v e r th e r e a r e a f e w a r e a s in h is f o u n d i n g a ff id a v i t i n w h ic h i t is s h o w n th a t h e is i m p li c a t e d i n M r G o r d h a n ’s s ta t e m e n t o r e v i d e n c e . I s h a l l d e a l w i t h t h e s e in d u e c o u r s e . I h a v e a ls o m a d e th e point 20 that Rule 3.3 requires fr o m an a p p l ic a n t fo r leave to c r o s s - e x a m in e a s t a te m e n t r e s p o n d i n g to t h e w it n e s s s ta t e m e n t i n s o fa r a s i t i m p l ic a t e s h i m o r h e r. T h i s m e a n s t h a t a n a p p li c a n t fo r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e m u s t r e s p o n d t o t h o s e p a r ts o f th e w i tn e s s ’ s t a t e m e n t w h ic h i m p l ic a t e h i m o r h e r. T h e a p p l ic a n t ’s s t a t e m e n t in th is c a s e d o e s n o t a t a ll r e s p o n d to c e r t a i n i m p o r t a n t p a r ts o f M r G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t w h ic h i m p lic a t e s h i m Page 15 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 o r d o e s n o t r e s p o n d a d e q u a te ly t o s o m e p a r ts o f Mr G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t o r e v i d e n c e . O n e e x a m p l e o f t h is r e la t e s t o p a r a g r a p h s 1 2 7 . 2 to 1 2 7 . 4 o f M r G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t w h e r e M r G o r d h a n i m p l ic a te s t h e a p p li c a n t o f b l a ta n t r e fu s a l : “ To a c c o u n t t o h i m a s M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e o n m a t e r i a l is s u e s ( s u c h a s t h e o p e r a ti n g m o d e l o f SARS)”. Mr Gordhan 10 accuses the a p p li c a n t of even refusing to a c k n o w l e d g e h is a u t h o r i ty a n d M r G o r d h a n s u g g e s ts th a t th is c o n d u c t o n t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s p a r t a p p e a r e d t o h a v e b e e n p a r t o f a c a m p a i g n a i m e d a t f o r c i n g h i m to r e s ig n a s M in is t e r o f F in a n c e . He says the a p p lic a n t m a d e s e r i o u s a ll e g a t io n s a g a i n s t h i m a n d c o n t i n u e d t o r e f u s e t o a c c e p t t h a t h e w a s a c c o u n t a b l e a n d a n s w e r a b l e to h i m a s M i n i s te r o f Fi n a n c e . T h e a p p l ic a n t - a s I h a v e i n d ic a te d – d o e s n o t r e s p o n d t o t h e s e a l le g a t i o n s in M r G o r d h a n ’s s t a t e m e n t a n d p u t h is , h is v e r s io n . F u r th e r m o r e I h a v e a ls o s t a te d th a t R u l e 3 .4 r e q u ir e s t h e s t a te m e n t o f a n a p p li c a n t fo r le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e t o m a k e i t c l e a r w h ic h p a r t s o f 20 t h e w i tn e s s ’ s t a te m e n t a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n i e d a n d t h e g r o u n d s u p o n w h ic h th o s e p a r t s a r e d is p u te d o r d e n i e d . B e c a u s e t h e a p p li c a n t ’s a ff id a v i t i n t h is c a s e d o n o t id e n ti fy o r d o n o t c l e a r l y i d e n ti fy t h e p a r t s o f Mr G o r d h a n ’s s ta t e m e n t t h a t a r e d e n ie d o r d is p u te d it c a n n o t b e s a i d t h a t it c o m p l ie s w i th t h a t p a r t o f R u l e 3 . 4 t h a t r e q u ir e s t h a t a n a p p lic a n t’s s t a t e m e n t m a k e s i t c le a r w h a t Page 16 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 p a r t s o f a w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n t a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n i e d . O n e s tr u g g l e s to s e e w h ic h p a r ts o f M r G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t t h e a p p li c a n t a d m it s o r d is p u te s . T h e a p p lic a n t’s s ta t e m e n t s h o u l d h a v e m a d e t h is q u i te c l e a r. R u l e 3 . 4 o b l ig e s a n a p p lic a n t f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e . To a l s o g i v e h is v e r s i o n i n r e g a r d t o a ll e g a t i o n s m a d e b y a w i t n e s s o n r e g a r d t o evidence given by a witness. I t w il l a l s o h a v e b e e n c l e a r fr o m t h e d is c u s s io n o f R e g u l a t i o n 8 . 3 a n d R u le 3 . 7 t h a t a n a p p l ic a n t f o r l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e is r e q u i r e d t o s h o w t h a t i t is n e c e s s a r y a n d i n t h e b e s t 10 in t e r e s t o f t h e fu n c t io n o r w o r k o f a C o m m i s s io n t h a t h e o r s h e b e granted leave to cross -examine. N e i th e r i n h i s fo u n d i n g a ff id a v i t n o r i n h i s s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t d i d t h e a p p li c a n t d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e o f w h y i t c a n b e s a i d t h a t g r a n t in g h i m l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n is n e c e s s a r y a n d i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e f u n c t i o n o f t h e C o m m is s i o n . I h a v e r e a d h is a ffi d a v i ts c a r e f u l ly a n d I a m s a ti s f i e d t h a t h e d o e s n o t a d d r e s s th is i m p o r t a n t is s u e . A s a n a p p li c a n t fo r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e h e s h o u ld h a v e a d d r e s s e d t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h y I s h o u l d c o n c l u d e th a t it i s n e c e s s a r y 20 a n d i n t h e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e fu n c t io n o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n th a t h e b e g r a n t e d le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r G o r d h a n . By c o n t r a s t in h is o p p o s in g a ff i d a v i t Mr G o r d h a n s p e c i f ic a l ly c o n t e n d e d t h a t t h e fi r s t r e a s o n w h y h e o p p o s e s t h e a p p li c a n t ’s a p p l ic a ti o n is t h a t i t a n d I quote: “ F a i ls t o c o m p l y w it h r e q u ir e m e n t s o f R u l e s 3 .4 a n d Page 17 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 3 .7 .” O f th e C o m m is s i o n ’s R u l e s . B o t h R u le 3 . 4 a n d R u l e 3 . 7 h a v e been quoted above. R u l e 3 . 4 is t h e r u l e t h a t a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s r e q u ir e s a n a p p l ic a n t f o r c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o r r a t h e r - e x c u s e m e - a n a p p lic a ti o n f o r c r o s s - e x a mi n a ti o n t o b e a c c o m p a n i e d b y th e a p p l ic a n t ’s o r i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s a n d I q u o t e : “ St a t e m e n t r e s p o n d i n g t o t h e w i tn e s s s t a te m e n t in s o f a r a s i t i m p li c a t e s h i m o r h e r. ” A n d t h a t s u c h s ta t e m e n t b y t h e a p p li c a n t o r i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n : 10 “ Mu s t m a k e it c le a r w h a t p a r ts o f t h e w it n e s s s t a te m e n t a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n i e d a n d th e g r o u n d s u p o n w h ic h t h o s e p a r ts a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n i e d . ” R u l e 3 .7 is th e r u l e t h a t e ff e c t iv e ly r e g u l a r is e R e g u l a ti o n 8 .3 a n d i s t o t h e e ff e c t t h a t in th is C o m m i s s i o n t h e r e i s n o r i g h t to c r o s s e x a m in e b y th e C h a i r p e r s o n : “ Ma y p e r mi t c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n s h o u l d h e d e e m i t n e c e s s a r y a n d in t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f th e w o r k o f t h e C o m m is s i o n t o d o s o .” R u l e s 3 .4 a n d 3 . 7 a r e t h e r e f o r e to g e th e r w i t h R e g u l a ti o n 8 . 3 20 a t t h e h e a r t o f th e c o n s i d e r a t io n o f a n a p p li c a t io n f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s e x a m in e a w i t n e s s b e f o r e t h is C o m m i s s i o n . I n s u p p o r t o f h is c o n te n ti o n t h a t t h e a p p li c a n t’s a p p l ic a t i o n f a i ls to c o m p ly w i t h R u l e s 3 .3 a n d 3 .7 M r G o r d h a n s a id in h i s a ff id a v i t a n d I q u o t e 6 . 1 : “ C o n tr a r y to t h o s e r e q u ir e m e n t s t h e a p p li c a t io n f a il s t o m a k e i t c l e a r w h a t p a r ts o f t h e w it n e s s Page 18 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 s t a te m e n t a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n i e d a n d th e g r o u n d s u p o n w h ic h t h o s e p a r ts a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n i e d . ” 6 .2 : “ N o r d o e s i t e s t a b l is h th a t c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n is n e c e s s a r y a n d i n t h e b e s t i n te r e s t o f th e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n t o d o s o .” 6 .3 : “ T h i s d e f e c t is a b a s i s to d is m i s s t h e a p p l ic a t io n i n it s e n tir e ty.” 10 Mr Gordhan also pointed out that he was advised that the p u r p o s e o f c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n w o u l d b e t o t e s t h is e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t a n a l t e r n a t iv e s e t o f fa c t s p r o v i d e d b y th e a p p l ic a n t , b u t s a id M r G o r d h a n t h e a p p lic a n t d i d n o t p u t u p a n y a lt e r n a t iv e s e t o f f a c ts o r a n y e v i d e n c e c o n tr a d ic ti n g h is e v i d e n c e . M r G o r d h a n s t a te d in h is o p p o s i n g a ff id a v i t t h a t in h i s e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h is C o m m i s s i o n h e h a d te s ti fi e d a b o u t t h e a p p lic a n t i n t h r e e r e s p e c ts . H e s a id th a t : A , h e e x p r e s s e d h is c o n c e r n s a b o u t t h e a p p lic a n t’s a p p o i n t m e n t a n d t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s r e s i s t a n c e t o h is e x e c u t iv e o v e r s ig h t w h e n h e w a s th e M i n i s te r o f F i n a n c e t o w h o m t h e a p p li c a n t 20 was accountable. B , h e p r o v i d e d e v id e n c e to t h e C o m m is s i o n r e g a r d in g t h e a p p a r e n t ir r e g u l a r i ty o f a c o n tr a c t a p p r o v e d b y t h e a p p lic a n t i n t e r m s o f w h i c h N e w In t e g r a t e d C r e d i t S o l u ti o n s ( N I C S) w a s a p p o i n t e d a s a d e b t c o ll e c t o r a t S A R S a n d : “The a p p li c a n t ’s m is le a d i n g s ta t e m e n t s P a r li a m e n t r e g a r d i n g h is i n v o l v e m e n t .” Page 19 of 136 to 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 C , h e t e s t i fi e d a b o u t t h e c a m p a ig n a g a i n s t h i m w h e n h e w a s r e a p p o i n te d a s M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e t h a t i n c l u d e d t h e la u n c h i n g a n d s u b s e q u e n t w it h d r a w a l o f c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m a r is in g fr o m a d o c k e t o p e n e d b y t h e a p p l ic a n t . H e s a i d I t e s t if i e d r e g a r d i n g it s i m p a c t o n m e p e r s o n a l ly. A f t e r s e t ti n g o u t t h e a b o v e t h r e e is s u e s a s t h e o n ly is s u e s th a t r e l a t e d t o t h e a p p li c a n t t h a t h e t e s t if i e d a b o u t in t h i s Commission Mr Gordhan made the point - in the next paragraph - that t h e a p p l ic a n t h a s n o p la c e d a c o m p l e t e a n d fa c tu a l v e r s io n b e f o r e th e C o m m i s s i o n w it h w h ic h t o t e s t a n y o f h is fa c t u a l e v i d e n c e t h r o u g h 10 c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n . H e s a i d th a t t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s d i s a g r e e m e n t w i t h h is p e r s o n a l i m p r e s s io n s and experience does not a s s is t the C o m m i s s io n . M r G o r d h a n t h e r e a f te r p o i n t e d o u t in h i s o p p o s in g a ff i d a v i t th a t a n d I quote: “ Al l t h r e e o f t h e i s s u e s id e n ti fi e d a b o v e r e g a r d in g w h ic h I t e s t i fi e d have been c o n fir m e d by J u s t ic e N u g e n t in t h e w o r k o f t h e C o m m is s i o n o f I n q u i r y i n t o t a x a d m in is tr a ti o n a n d g o v e r n a n c e b y S A R S ( N u g e n t C o m m is s i o n ) .” 20 Mr Gordhan went on to say and I quote: “ As s e t o u t b e lo w t h a t J u d i c i a l C o m m i s s i o n h a s in v e s t i g a t e d , c o n s i d e r e d a n d m a d e s e v e r a l f i n d in g s that render this a p p l ic a t i o n by the a p p lic a n t r e d u n d a n t .” I n h i s r e p ly i n g a ff id a v i t t h e a p p li c a n t d o e s n o t d e n y o r Page 20 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 d is p u te M r G o r d h a n ’s a s s e r ti o n s t h a t t h e th r e e r e s p e c ts i n w h ic h h e s a y s h e t e s ti f ie d a b o u t h i m i n t h is C o m m i s s io n a r e th e o n ly r e s p e c ts i n w h ic h h e t e s ti fi e d a b o u t h i m n o r d o e s h e d e n y o r d is p u te Mr G o r d h a n ’s evidence that and I quote: “ Al l three of the issues i d e n ti f ie d have been c o n fir m e d b y J u s ti c e N u g e n t i n t h e w o r k . ” O f t h e C o m m i s s i o n h e c h a ir e d . T h e a p p li c a n t a ls o d o e s n o t d e n y M r G o r d h a n ’s a s s e r ti o n t h a t t h e N u g e n t C o m m i s s i o n : “ …i n v e s t ig a t e d , 10 considered and made several fi n d i n g s … ” A b o u t t h o s e t h r e e is s u e s . B e f o r e I d e a l w i t h w h a t t h e a p p l ic a n t s a y s i n h is r e p ly i n g a ff i d a v i t l e t m e m a k e o n e p o i n t t h a t i s t h a t a f t e r M r G o r d h a n h a d d e li v e r e d a n d s e r v e d h is o p p o s in g a ffi d a v i t th e a p p lic a n t h a d a n o p p o r tu n it y to m e a n i n g f u l ly a n d d ir e c t ly r e s p o n d to M r G o r d h a n ’s o p p o s i n g a ff id a v i t . H o w e v e r in h is r e p l y i n g a ff id a v i t th e a p p lic a n t s a i d i n p a r t a n d I q u o t e : “ I d o n o t p r o p o s e t o d e a l w it h t h e a ll e g a ti o n s c o n ta in e d in t h e o p p o s in g a ff id a v i t a d s e r ia ti m d u e t o t h e n a t u r e o f m y r e s p o n s e s w h ic h a r e t h e m a ti c 20 a n d c u t a c r o s s t h e g is t o f s u c h o p p o s i ti o n . Any a l le g a ti o n s w h i c h a r e n o t s p e c i fi c a ll y a d d r e s s e d b u t w h ic h a r e i n c o n s is t e n t w i t h t h e v e r s i o n c o n ta in e d in t h i s , t h e f o u n d in g a n d s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i ts in c l u d i n g a n n e x u r e s t h e r e t o m u s t b e r e g a r d e d a s h a v i n g b e e n s p e c if ic a l ly d e n ie d a n d d is p u t e d .” Page 21 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 T h e r e a r e t h r e e p o i n ts t o b e m a d e i n c o n n e c ti o n w i t h t h is p a s s a g e fr o m t h e a p p li c a n t ’s r e p l y i n g a ff id a v it . Th e f ir s t i s t h a t th e a p p lic a n t s a y s t h a t h e w il l n o t r e s p o n d t o a ll t h e a ll e g a t io n s m a d e i n M r G o r d h a n ’s a ffi d a v i t a d s e r ia t i m b e c a u s e h is r e s p o n s e s a r e t h e m a tic a n d c u t a c r o s s t h e g is t o f M r G o r d h a n ’s o p p o s it i o n . T h e d a n g e r w it h t h is a p p r o a c h a d a p t e d b y th e a p p l ic a n t i s t h a t th e r e m a y b e m a t e r i a l p a r t s in Mr G o r d h a n ’s a ff id a v i t i n e v i d e n c e t o w h i c h h e m a y e n d u p n o t r e s p o n d i n g w h ic h m a y th e r e fo r e s t a n d a s u n d is p u t e d o r u n c o n t r o v e r t e d . The 10 second point is that where M r G o r d h a n ’s a ffi d a v i t c o n ta in s a v e r s io n o n a c e r ta i n is s u e a n d t h a t v e r s i o n i s in c o n s is t e n t w i t h t h e a p p l ic a n t’s a ffi d a v i ts a n d t h e a p p li c a n t r e li e s s i m p ly o n th e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e i n t h e p a s s a g e q u o t e d a b o v e to s a y th a t h e d e n ie s o r d is p u te s M r G o r d h a n ’s a ll e g a t i o n o r e v i d e n c e . H is d e n i a l w il l b e nothing more than a bear denial of what Mr Gordhan may have said in h is o p p o s i n g a ffi d a v i t . T h a t w i l l n o t a s s i s t th e a p p l ic a n t ’s a p p li c a ti o n f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e . Th e t h ir d p o i n t is t h a t th e r e m a y b e p a r ts o f M r G o r d h a n ’s a ffi d a v i t a n d e v i d e n c e w h i c h m ig h t n o t b e s a i d t o b e in c o n s is t e n t w it h a n y o f t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s a ff id a v i ts . 20 In s u c h a c a s e t h e f a c t o f t h e l a s t s e n te n c e in t h e p a s s a g e q u o t e d a b o v e w o u ld b e t h a t s u c h e v i d e n c e is n o t d e n i e d o r d is p u t e d b e c a u s e t h e s e n te n c e o n l y s a y s t h a t w h a t i s in c o n s is t e n t w i th – w h a t is d e n i e d o r d is p u te d , w h a t w i ll b e d e n i e d o r d is p u t e d o r m u s t b e r e g a r d e d a s d e n ie d o r d i s p u t e d is w h a t is in c o n s is t e n t w i t h th e a p p li c a n t ’s a ffi d a v i ts and annexures. Page 22 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 T h e a p p l ic a n t d o e s n o t d i s p u te o r d e n y a n y e x p l a n a ti o n s t h a t M r G o r d h a n m a y h a v e g i v e n i n h is o p p o s i n g a ffi d a v i t in r e s p e c t o f w h a t h e m a y h a v e s a id i n h is s t a t e m e n t o r e v i d e n c e . I n h is r e p ly in g a ff id a v i t t h e a p p l ic a n t a t ta c k e d M r G o r d h a n ’s r e li a n c e o n t h e f i n d i n g s o f t h e S A R S C o m m i s s io n o n t h e b a s i s t h a t t h e y a r e i r r e l e v a n t o p i n i o n s . H o w e v e r h e f a i le d to s u b s t a n t i a t e th is c o n t e n t io n . A ll he s a id was that th e y are hit by at least three e x c lu s i o n a r y r u l e s r e l a t i n g t o o p i n i o n e v id e n c e b u t h e d i d n o t s a y w h a t t h o s e th r e e r u l e s a r e . 10 H e t h e n s e t o u t s o m e o f h is c o m p la in t s a b o u t t h e S A R S C o m m is s i o n w h ic h i n c lu d e d t h a t : A , t h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n h a d i ts o w n t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e . B , h e w a s a l l e g e d ly d e n i e d th e r i g h t t o p a r t ic ip a t e i n t h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n . C , h e w il l s h o r tly b e s e t t in g d o w n P a r t B o f h is c h a ll e n g e t o t h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n ’s R e p o r t s e e k i n g r e li e f t o r e v i e w a n d s e t i t a s i d e a n d m e n ti o n e d s o m e o f h is i n t e n d e d g r o u n d s o f r e v ie w. I a m u n a b le t o a g r e e w i t h t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s c o n t e n t io n t h a t fi n d i n g s m a d e b y t h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n i n r e s p e c t o f is s u e s o n w h ic h h e r e q u e s t e d le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n a r e ir r e le v a n t . H e h i m s e l f f a il s t o s a y w h y s u c h f in d in g s a r e ir r e l e v a n t o t h e r 20 t h a n t o s a y th a t th e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n h a d i ts o w n t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e . A l th o u g h t h e S A R S C o m m is s i o n h a d d i ff e r e n t t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e t h e y m a y h a v e m a d e f in d i n g s o f fa c t t h a t r e l a te t o s o m e o f t h e a ll e g a ti o n s o r f a c ts o n w h i c h th e a p p l ic a n t s e e k s l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e Mr G o r d h a n . O b v io u s ly i t s f in d in g s a r e n o t a n d c a n n o t b e b in d in g o n m e . H o w e v e r I m u s t h a v e d u e r e g a r d t o th e m w h e n a m o n g o t h e r s Page 23 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 I c o n s id e r w h e th e r i t is n e c e s s a r y a n d i n th e b e s t i n t e r e s t o f t h e function of the C o m m i s s io n to grant th e a p p l ic a n t le a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e o n a n i s s u e t h a t h a s b e e n c o n s i d e r e d b y th e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n a n d i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h t h a t C o m m is s i o n h a s m a d e a fi n d i n g . T h e a p p l ic a n t p o i n ts o u t t h a t h is a p p li c a t io n w a s p r o m p te d b y a R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e t h a t h e r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e Commission. H e s a y s t h a t t h a t n o tic e s t a te d th a t Mr G o r d h a n h a d s u b m i tt e d t o th e C o m m i s s i o n a s t a te m e n t t h a t i m p li c a t e d h i m i n 10 w r o n g d o i n g a n d p o in t e d o u t tw o r e s p e c ts i n w h i c h i t s a i d Mr G o r d h a n i m p l ic a t e d h i m . I n h i s f o u n d in g a ffi d a v i t th e a p p l ic a n t s t a t e s t h a t t h e o n e r e s p e c t i n w h i c h t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s a i d Mr G o r d h a n i m p li c a t e d h i m w a s in h is s ta t e m e n t . H e q u o t e d t h a t p a r t a s w e ll a s t h e o t h e r r e s p e c t in w h ic h t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s u g g e s te d th a t M r G o r d h a n h a d i m p li c a t e d h i m . T h e a p p l ic a n t p u t i t i n t h e s e t e r m s a n d I q u o t e , 5 . 1 : “ My a ll e g e d p a r tic ip a t io n i n th e a w a r d i n g o f t h e c o n tr a c t o r t e n d e r t o n e w i n te g r a t e d c r e d i t s o l u ti o n s a company owned by my a ll e g e d fr ie n d M r P a t r ic k M o n y e k i .” 20 And 5.2: “ My a ll e g e d r e fu s a l to a c c o u n t t o M i n is te r G o r d h a n as Mi n is t e r of F in a n c e on m a t e r ia l issues, a d e t e r io r a ti n g r e l a t i o n s h i p b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f u s a l le g e d o n g o i n g p e r s o n a l a n d i n s ti t u ti o n a l a t t a c k s Page 24 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 by me and M i n i s te r G o r d h a n and r e la t e d r e l a ti o n s h i p i s s u e s . ” T h e a p p lic a n t s e t t h is o u t in p a r a g r a p h 5 o f h is fo u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t . I d e a l la t e r w i t h t h e s e t w o r e s p e c ts i n w h i c h t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s a i d Mr G o r d h a n h a d i m p lic a t e d t h e a p p l ic a n t . A p r o p e r r e a d i n g o f th e a p p li c a n t ’s p a r a g r a p h 6 o f h is f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t r e fl e c t s th a t t h e a p p lic a n t m a k e s t h e p o i n t t h a t a c u r s o r y r e a d in g o f M i n is t e r G o r d h a n ’s s t a te m e n t s u b m it t e d t o th is C o m m i s s i o n r e v e a ls t h a t t h e is s u e s th a t M r G o r d h a n r a is e d in h is s t a t e m e n t w h ic h d ir e c t ly o r i n d ir e c tl y a ffe c t e d 10 h i m - t h a t is t h e a p p lic a n t – in c l u d e d th e fo ll o w i n g a n d I q u o te , 6 .1 : “ T h e r o l e p l a y e d b y M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n a s M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e to assist or oppose perceived state c a p tu r e .” 6 .2 : “ Mi n i s t e r G o r d h a n ’s r e q u e s t fo r m y r e m o v a l.” 6 .3 : “ H i s c o m p la in t s a b o u t t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h I w a s e m p l o y e d .” 6 .4 : “ H i s b e l i e f t h a t I w a s r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h e c h a r g e s 20 a g a in s t h i m a n d o t h e r s o f t h e a ll e g e d r o g u e u n i t .” 6 .5 : “ T h e la w f u l n e s s o r o t h e r w i s e o f th e r o g u e u n i t a n d if it e x is t e d M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n ’s r o l e i n i t .” 6 .6 : Page 25 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 “ My a ll e g a t io n o f r a c i s m a n d d is r e s p e c t t o w a r d s m e b y M i n is t e r G o r d h a n .” 6 .7 : “ H i s c o n d u c t a n d a b u s e o f p o w e r r e la t e d t o h is r e tu r n t o t h e M i n is tr y o f Fi n a n c e i n 2 0 1 5 a n d m o r e r e c e n t ly t h e v ic t o r y o f Pr e s id e n t C y r i l R a m a p h o s a a t th e A N C C o n f e r e n c e . personal v e n d e t ta and T h i s i s c o u p l e d w i th a campaig n d r iv e n by M i n is t e r G o r d h a n t o i n f l u e n c e Pr e s id e n t R a m a p h o s a to 10 c o m p le t e M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n ’s dream of my r e m o v a l a s C o m m is s i o n e r o f th e S o u t h A f r ic a n R e v e n u e S e r v ic e ( S A R S ) f o r th e s a k e o f r e v e n g e a n d m is p l a c e d h a tr e d t o w a r d s m e . ” F o r c o n v e n ie n c e I s h a ll r e fe r t o th e i s s u e s lis t e d u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 6 o f t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t a s t h e p a r a g r a p h 6 is s u e s . I n p a r a g r a p h 7 t h e a p p li c a n t l is ts s e v e n “ a d d i t io n a l i s s u e s ” w h ic h h e s a y s a n d I q u o t e : “ Ar e r e la t e d t o [ t h e p a r a g r a p h 6 is s u e s ] b u t a r e n o t d ir e c t ly r a is e d i n th e p a p e r s .” I s h a l l r e fe r to t h e is s u e s h e l is ts in p a r a g r a p h 7 a s t h e 20 p a r a g r a p h 7 is s u e s . P a r a g r a p h 7 r e a d s a n d I q u o t e : “ Se v e n a d d it i o n a l is s u e s w h i c h a r e r e l a t e d t o t h e a b o v e b u t a r e n o t d ir e c tl y r a is e d i n t h e p a p e r s in c l u d e .” 7 .1 : Page 26 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 “ Mr G o r d h a n ’s n a r r a t iv e t h a t w h e n i t c o m e s t o s ta t e c a p tu r e th e r e is a l i n e b e t w e e n t h e d e v i l s ( l e d b y f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t Zu m a ) a n d t h e a n g e ls o f w h ic h h e c o u n t s h i ms e lf a s o n e .” 7 .2 : “ R e l a te d to the above M i n i s te r G o r d h a n ’s m is le a d i n g o f P a r li a m e n t a b o u t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th t h e G u p t a s w h i c h i s s i m il a r t o t h a t o f o t h e r s e l f s ty l e d a n g e l s s u c h a s f o r m e r M i n i s te r N e n e .” 10 7 .3 : “ Mi n i s t e r G o r d h a n ’s r o l e i n r o g u e u n it s a g a .” 7 .4 : “ Mi n i s t e r G o r d h a n ’s i m p r o p e r le a d i n g r o le i n m y d is c i p l i n a r y i n q u ir y.” 7 .5 : “ Mi n i s t e r G o r d h a n ’s i m p r o p e r r o le i n t h e N u g e n t I n q u i r y in c l u d i n g h is h o l d i n g o f a n i m p r o p e r a n d u n d is c lo s e d m e e ti n g Judge Robert Nugent with and the the C o m m is s i o n e r, legal i m p l ic a t i o n s t h e r e o f .” 20 7 .6 : “ Mi n i s t e r ( o r C o m m is s i o n e r ) G o r d h a n ’s tr a c k r e c o r d o f m i s m a n a g e m e n t , la w le s s n e s s a n d fl a g r a n t b r e a c h o f p r o c u r e m e n t r u le s w h ic h I c o n fr o n t e d w i t h a t SARS.” Page 27 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 7 .7 : “ R e p o r ts o f th e a b o v e o f o n e o f my p r e d e c e s s o r s M r O u p a M a g a s h u l a b y M i n is t e r G o r d h a n a n d h is r o g u e u n i t a n d t h e v i e w s o f t h e c u r r e n t Ac t in g Commissioner thereon.” I n th e f ir s t s e n te n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 8 o f h i s f o u n d in g a ffi d a v it t h e a p p lic a n t s ta t e s a n d I q u o te : “The above make seven topics for intended cross e x a m in a ti o n .” I t is n o t i m m e d ia t e l y c l e a r w h e t h e r t h e r e fe r e n c e to a n d I 10 q u o t e “ a b o v e ” in t h e fir s t s e n t e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 8 o f th e a p p li c a n ts f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v it i s a r e fe r e n c e t o th e p a r a g r a p h 6 i s s u e s o r a r e fe r e n c e t o th e p a r a g r a p h 7 is s u e s b e c a u s e u n d e r b o t h s e v e n is s u e s a r e li s te d . H o w e v e r i t w o u ld s e e m t h a t t h e a p p l ic a n t m u s t h a v e in t e n d e d t o r e f e r t o th e p a r a g r a p h 6 i s s u e s b e c a u s e h e s a i d t h a t t h o s e were raised by Mr Gordhan in his statement whereas he said the p a r a g r a p h 7 is s u e s w e r e n o t “ d i r e c t ly r a is e d i n t h e p a p e r s ” o r a c c o r d i n g l y t h is m a t t e r m u s t b e a p p r o a c h e d o n t h e f o o t i n g th a t t h e is s u e s o r m a t te r s i n r e s p e c t o f w h i c h t h e a p p lic a n t s e e k s l e a v e t o 20 c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n a r e t h e p a r a g r a p h 6 i s s u e s . I f I a m c o r r e c t t h a t t h e r e fe r e n c e t o th e s e v e n t o p ic s i n t h e fir s t s e n t e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 8 i s r e f e r e n c e t o th e p a r a g r a p h 6 is s u e s t h e n t h e f ir s t s e n t e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 8 o f th e a p p li c a n t ’s f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t m u s t b e u n d e r s t o o d to m e a n t h a t t h o s e a r e th e s e v e n t o p ic s for the a p p lic a n t’s “ in t e n d e d c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n ” . Page 28 of 136 However the 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 a p p lic a n t g o e s o n to s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 8 t h a t t h e s e s e v e n t o p ic s : “ C a n b e r e d u c e d t o f iv e b r o a d c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n themes”. H e li s t s t h o s e t h in g s a s f o ll o w s a n d I q u o t e , 8 . 1 : “ T h e g e n e r a l c r e d i b i li ty a n d g e n e r a l a t ti t u d e o f M i n is t e r G o r d h a n c h a r a c t e r i s e d b y a p r o p e n s i ty t o d is t o r t a n d s p i n th e fa c ts .” 8 .2 : “ Bi a s h o s ti li ty a n d v i n d ic t iv e n e s s a s g u id i n g a t t it u d e o f t h e r e l a ti o n b e t w e e n t h e tw o o f u s l e a v i n g n o 10 room for p r o f e s s i o n a li s m , o b j e c t iv it y i m p a r t i a li t y i n o u r m u tu a l d e a l in g s . and Th is c a lls f o r a n y e v id e n c e g i v e n b y G o r d h a n a b o u t m e i n a n y o n g o i n g f o r u m in c l u d i n g t h i s o n e t o n e e d t o b e t a k e n w i t h m o r e t h a n t h e p r o v e r b i a l p in c h o f s a l t .” 8 .3 : “ T h e d i s to r t io n o f th e e v i d e n c e i n o r d e r t o s u p p o r t the f a ls e n a r r a t iv e s p e c i f ic a l ly my of a ll e g e d d e v i ls and breach of a n g e ls and procurement p r o c e d u r e s .” 20 8 .4 : “Racism and other M i n is t e r G o r d h a n unbecoming towards me b e h a v io u r by s y m b o lis e s r e g r e t t a b l e b e h a v i o u r w h ic h h a s n o p l a c e i n th e n a t io n w e a r e a ll tr y in g to b u i ld a n d w h ic h t h e r e is Page 29 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 n o p l a c e f o r lo o k i n g d o w n u p o n A fr ic a n p e o p l e . Th e d e e p r o le o f M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n i n t h e r o g u e u n i t s a g a a ls o r e f e r r e d t o a S u n d a y E v e n in g P r o j e c t w h ic h w a s a fo r m o f s t a t e c a p t u r e . ” I t s e e ms t o m e t h a t t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s c a s e i s t h a t h e s e e k s l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n o n th e p a r a g r a p h 6 is s u e s u s i n g th e c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n t h e m e s w h ic h h e s e ts o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 8 o f h is f o u n d i n g a ff i d a v i t . A f t e r o u t li n i n g in p a r a g r a p h 8 w h a t h e c a l ls h i s c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n t h e m e s t h e a p p li c a n t s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 9 a n d I 10 quote: “ T h e r e s t o f th is a ffi d a v i t w i ll b r ie f ly o u tli n e m y s u b m is s io n s h e r e i n o r g a n is e d a lo n g t h e li n e s o f t h e a b o v e m e n ti o n e d f iv e c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n t h e m e s o r h e a d i n g s a n d i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h m y v e r s i o n w i ll b e o u t li n e d a n d t h e r e l e v a n t s u p p o r ti n g d o c u m e n t s w h e r e a p p l ic a b l e w il l b e i d e n t i fi e d a n d a n n e x e d .” P a r a g r a p h 9 s e e m s t o e m p h a s is e th a t i f o n e w a n t s to c o n s id e r t h e b a s is o f th e a p p li c a n t ’s a p p li c a t io n t h e p r o p e r p l a c e t o l o o k a t i s n o t a f te r p a r a g r a p h 8 e x c e p t f o r w h a t t h e a p p l ic a n t i n d ic a te s a r e h is 20 versions. P a r a g r a p h 1 0 o f t h e a p p lic a n t ’s fo u n d i n g a ff id a v i t s e e m s c o n ta in s a r e q u e s t a b o u t t h e a m o u n t o f ti m e t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n o r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n s h o u ld a l lo w fo r c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n should he grant c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e . I t is i m p o r t a n t t o p o in t o u t t h a t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 1 t o p a r a g r a p h 9 o f th e a p p l ic a n t ’s f o u n d i n g a ff id a v i t t h e a p p lic a n t d o e s n o t a n y w h e r e Page 30 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 d r a w a t t e n t io n t o a n y a l le g a ti o n m a d e b y M r G o r d h a n t h a t i m p li c a t e s h i m i n a n y w r o n g d o i n g . T h e c l o s e s t t o w h ic h h e c o m e s i s i n p a r a g r a p h 6 .3 a n d p a r a g r a p h 6 . 4 . In p a r a g r a p h 6 . 3 t h e a p p l ic a n t s u g g e s t t h a t M r G o r d h a n h a d “ c o m p l a i n ts a b o u t t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h h e w a s e m p lo y e d ” . T h a t d o e s n o t s a y t h a t Mr G o r d h a n i m p lic a t e d h i m in a n y w r o n g d o i n g i n r e g a r d t o h is a p p o i n t m e n t . I n p a r a g r a p h 6 . 4 t h e a p p li c a n t r e fe r s t o “ M r G o r d h a n ’s b e l i e f t h a t h e w a s r e s p o n s ib le fo r t h e c h a r g e s a g a i n s t M r G o r d h a n a n d o th e r s o f t h e a l le g e d R o g u e U n i t” . 10 O n it s o w n t h is d o e s n o t a m o u n t t o M r G o r d h a n i m p l ic a ti n g t h e a p p l ic a n t i n a n y w r o n g d o i n g . I n a n y e v e n t th e a p p lic a n t h a s a d m i tt e d i n h i s a ff id a v i t th a t h e l a i d a c o m p l a i n t w i t h th e P o lic e w h ic h l e d t o Mr G o r d h a n a n d o t h e r s b e in g c r i m i n a ll y c h a r g e d . O t h e r t h a n t h i s n o n e o f th e p a r a g r a p h 6 i s s u e s r e f e r t o a n y s t a te m e n t o r r e f e r s t o a n y s t a te m e n t b y M r G o r d h a n t h a t c a n b e s a i d t o h a v e i m p l ic a te d th e a p p lic a n t i n a n y w r o n g d o i n g . W h e n o n e g o e s t o t h e p a r a g r a p h 7 is s u e s th e r e t o w h a t t h e a p p lic a n t d o e s is to l is t h is own a ll e g a ti o n s or c o m p l a i n ts or a c c u s a ti o n s o f a ll e g e d i m p r o p e r c o n d u c t b y M r G o r d h a n . T h e y a r e n o t in s t a n c e s o r a r e a s i n M r G o r d h a n ’s a ffi d a v i t w h e r e h e i m p li c a t e s th e 20 a p p lic a n t. B y th e a p p lic a n t’s o w n a d m is s i o n t h e p a r a g r a p h 6 is s u e s a r e n o t d ir e c tl y r a is e d i n Mr G o r d h a n ’s s t a t e m e n t . Therefore he cannot a p p ly f o r l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n o n is s u e s t h a t a r e n o t r a i s e d i n M r G o r d h a n ’s s t a t e m e n t o r i n M r G o r d h a n ’s e v i d e n c e . I h a v e a l r e a d y r e f e r r e d t o p a r a g r a p h 8 o f t h e a p p lic a n t’s f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v it w h ic h c o n ta in s w h a t t h e a p p l ic a n t c a l ls fi v e b r o a d Page 31 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n t h e m e s . In p a r a g r a p h 11 o f h is fo u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t t h e a p p lic a n t s ta t e s t h a t h e is p r o c e e d i n g : “ t o o u tl in e is s u e s t o b e r a is e d b y h i m a s ( h is v e r s io n ) i n r e s p e c t o f e a c h o f t h e b r o a d t h e m e s id e n t i f ie d a b o v e ” . T h e s o - c a l le d c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n th e m e s s t a r t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 11 a n d g o u p to p a r a g r a p h 3 0 . 7 o f t h e fo u n d i n g a ff id a v i t. T h e b a l a n c e o f t h e f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v it is t h e n t a k e n u p b y a c o n d o n a t i o n a p p lic a ti o n , s u b j e c t t o w h a t is c o n t a i n e d i n t h e a p p l ic a n t ’s s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v i t w i t h w h ic h I s h a ll d e a l s h o r t ly, th e a p p l ic a n t ’s c a s e o n w h e th e r o r n o t 10 h e s h o u l d b e g r a n t e d l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r G o r d h a n is b a s e d o n p a r a g r a p h s 5 t o 3 0 .6 o f h is f o u n d i n g a ff id a v i t . I h a v e d e a l t w i t h a ll t h e a b o v e p a r a g r a p h s e x c e p t th a t I h a v e n o t d e a l t w i t h t h e c o n t e n t s o f p a r a g r a p h s 11 t o 3 0 . 6 . Th e s e p a r a g r a p h s r e l a t e t o th e s o - c a ll e d c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n t h e m e s . I d e a l w i t h t h e m o n e b y o n e . C r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n t h e m e o n e , t h a t is g e n e r a l c r e d i b i li ty. U n d e r t h is t h e m e t h e a p p l ic a n t d o e s n o t s t a te w h a t M r G o r d h a n s a i d a b o u t h i m in h is s ta t e m e n t o r e v id e n c e , w h i c h i m p li c a t e s h i m . s i m p l y s e ts o u t h i s v e r s i o n o n c e r ta i n i s s u e s . He I n t h e f i r s t s e n te n c e u n d e r th is t h e m e t h e a p p li c a n t s t a t e s t h a t : “ h i s v e r s io n is t h a t M i n is t e r G o r d h a n ’s a ff id a v i t i s m o r e 20 s ig n if ic a n t f o r w h a t i t o m it s t h a n w h a t it s a y s . ” I h a v e e x a m in e d e v e r y t h in g th a t th e a p p l ic a n t s a y s u n d e r t h is t h e m e , he does not anywhere s t a te th a t Mr Gordhan i m p li c a t e d him. A c c o r d i n g ly t h e r e is n o b a s is f o r h i m t o a p p l y f o r le a v e t o c r o s s e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n o n a n is s u e i n r e g a r d t o w h ic h M r G o r d h a n d o e s Page 32 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 n o t i m p l ic a te h i m . C r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n th e m e tw o , t h a t i s a n ti - M o y a n e b ia s a n d h o s til i ty. U n d e r t h is c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n t h e m e t h e a p p li c a n t s t a te s th a t he: “ w i ll s e e k to d e m o n s tr a t e t h a t th e l e v e ls o f a c r i m o n y, h o s ti li ty, e n m i t y a n d a n g e r h a r b o u r e d b y Mr G o r d h a n t o w a r d s h i m a s a p e r s o n i s s u ff ic ie n t t o d is q u a li f y h i m a s a n i m p a r t i a l a n d d is p a s s i o n a t e c o m m e n t a to r o n a n y i s s u e i n w h i c h h e is a l le g e d ly in v o lv e d .” 10 A ls o u n d e r t h is c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n t h e m e t h e a p p li c a n t s t a t e s : “ I t w i ll b e d e m o n s tr a te d t h a t G o r d h a n h a s m a d e i t h is l if e lo n g m is s i o n t o h a v e m e r e m o v e d f r o m o ff ic e b y h o o k o r b y c r o o k .” He also alleges that: “ Mi n i s t e r G o r d h a n ’s m e d d li n g i n [t h a t i s h is d is c i p l in a r y e n q u ir y a n d th e N u g e n t I n q u ir y ] is i n t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s i m p r o p e r, u n l a w f u l , u n fa ir a n d i n b r e a c h o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a n d th e r u l e o f la w in v a r io u s w a y s .” I h a v e a l s o e x a m i n e d e v e r y t h i n g s a i d b y t h e a p p l ic a n t u n d e r t h is th e m e in t h e f o u n d in g a ffi d a v it . H e d o e s n o t a n y w h e r e a r ti c u la t e a n y th i n g t h a t 20 w a s s a i d b y M r G o r d h a n t h a t h e s a y s i m p l i c a t e s h i m in a n y w r o n g d o in g . C r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n th e m e 3, that is a l le g e d breach of p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s b y t h e a p p lic a n t [ t h e M o n y e k i c a s e ] . I t is o n ly u n d e r t h is h e a d i n g , o r t h is is o n e o f t h e h e a d i n g s w h e r e t h e a p p lic a n t p o i n t s o u t t h a t Mr G o r d h a n m a d e a d ir e c t a c c u s a ti o n a g a i n s t h i m . T h e a p p lic a n t s ta t e s t h a t M r G o r d h a n m a d e a d ir e c t a c c u s a t io n th a t h e a t: Page 33 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 “ 2 .1 I m p r o p e r ly p a r t ic ip a te d i n t h e a w a r d o f a t e n d e r t o my fr i e n d M r P a tr ic k M o n y e k i ; a n d 2 .2 L i e d t o P a r l i a m e n t a b o u t s u c h i n v o lv e m e n t b y d e n y i n g it .” I n r e s p o n s e t o t h i s th e a p p li c a n t p r o v id e s a b a r e d e n i a l, a n d a f te r p o i n t i n g o u t t h a t it is n o t c le a r w h e r e M r G o r d h a n m a d e t h e a b o v e a c c u s a ti o n s b e c a u s e t h e y a r e n o t in c l u d e d i n h i s a ff id a v i t, n o r i n h i s e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h e C o m m is s i o n t h e a p p l ic a n t s a y s : “ I n a n y e v e n t I d e n y t h e s e a c c u s a ti o n s a n d w i ll p u t q u e s t i o n s t o G o r d h a n t o d e m o n s tr a te t h e ir fa ls it y.” 10 H e d o e s n o t s a y w h e th e r h e a d m i ts t h a t h e p a r t ic i p a te d in t h e a w a r d i n g o f th e c o n tr a c t b u t d e n i e s t h a t h i s p a r t i c ip a ti o n w a s i m p r o p e r. He d e n ie s t h e e n tir e a l le g a ti o n . I n h is o p p o s in g a ff id a v i t M r G o r d h a n p o i n t s o u t th a t h e m e n ti o n e d th e M o n y e k i c a s e i n h is e v i d e n c e . H e s a y s t h a t h e h a s n o p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f t h e m a t t e r, b u t m e n ti o n e d i t i n h is e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n a s a s u g g e s t io n t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n s h o u l d c o n s i d e r i n v e s t i g a t in g th e c a s e b e c a u s e t h e r e a p p e a r to h a v e b e e n n o c o m p li a n c e w it h p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e d u r e s . H e p o i n ts o u t t h a t t h e M o n y e k i c a s e h a s a lr e a d y b e e n d e a l t 20 w i t h b y t h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u i r y. H e r e fe r s t o p a s s a g e s i n t h e fi n a l r e p o r t o f t h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n , i n w h ic h t h a t C o m m i s s i o n m a d e a c le a r f in d in g th a t th e a p p li c a n t p a r t ic i p a te d i n th e a w a r d o f a t e n d e r t o a c o m p a n y c a ll e d N e w In t e g r a t e d C r e d i t S o l u ti o n s . I t is a ls o s ta t e d in the SARS Commission Report th a t the Page 34 of 136 a p p li c a n t approved the 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 a p p o i n t m e n t o f N e w In t e g r a t e d C r e d i t S o l u ti o n s to t h e p a n e l o f s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r s o n 1 7 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 . I t is a ls o s ta t e d in th a t r e p o r t t h a t th e a p p lic a n t a p p r o v e d t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f t h a t c o m p a n y to P h a s e 2 o f th e P r o je c t o n 1 5 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 . It is s a i d t h a t i n e a c h c a s e t h e a p p l ic a n t d i d s o b y s i g n i n g t h e r e p o r t o f th e N a t io n a l B id A d ju d i c a t io n C o m m i t t e e . T h a t C o m m is s i o n ’s r e p o r t s a y s : “Later on SARS ...” n o I a m s o r r y, t h e a ffi d a v it b y M r G o r d h a n c o n ti n u e s a n d s a y s : “ L a t e r o n th e S A R S C o m m is s i o n t h i s fi n d i n g i n i ts r e p o r t : ‘ it is 10 a ls o n o t t r u e t h a t M r M o y a n e d o e s n o t g e t i n v o l v e d i n s u c h a p p o i n t m e n ts . H is w a s th e f i n a l a p p r o v a l f o r t h e a w a r d o f t h e c o n tr a c t, in d e e d th a t a s s e r ti o n c o n tr a d ic ts th e a s s e r ti o n h e m a d e i n th e a p p lic a ti o n to s e t a s id e t h e c o n tr a c t w i t h LTC , t h e v e r y f o u n d a ti o n o f w h ic h w a s th a t h e w a s i n v o lv e d i n t h e a w a r d o f t h e c o n tr a c t . I n h is r e p ly i n g a ffi d a v it h e a c k n o w le d g e d e x p r e s s ly t h a t h e h a d b e e n i n v o lv e d i n th e a w a r d o f t h e c o n tr a c t; “ a s a m a t t e r o f f a c t I w a s i n v o l v e d w i th t h e e v a lu a ti o n a n d a d j u d ic a ti o n o f th e b i d s . T h e N a ti o n a l B id A d ju d i c a t io n C o m m i t t e e ’s p r o c e s s r e s u l te d in t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n m a d e t o 20 me in my c a p a c i ty as SARS A c c o u n ti n g O ffic e r w h ic h r e c o m m e n d a ti o n I p e r s o n a l ly s i g n e d . I w a s a l s o i n v o l v e d w it h t h e e v a l u a t i o n a n d a d j u d ic a ti o n in t h e s e n s e t h a t I a m responsible for e n s u r in g that all procurement occurs in a c c o r d a n c e w i th a l a w fu l s y s t e m a n d i n t h a t t h e u l t i m a te r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s e m a n a t i n g fr o m t h a t s y s te m n e e d e d m y Page 35 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 a p p r o v a l .” T h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n a l s o m a d e th is fi n d in g : “ So f a r a s M r M o y a n e c o n v e y e d th a t h e h a d n o h a n d i n t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f N e w I n t e g r a t e d C r e d i t S o l u ti o n s t h a t is n o t tr u e . I t is a p p a r e n t fr o m t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t o n e a c h o f th e o c c a s i o n s t h a t N e w I n t e g r a t e d C r e d i t S o lu ti o n s w a s a p p o i n t e d t o th e p a n e l a n d a g a in a p p o i n te d t o P h a s e 2 . Th e N a ti o n a l B id A d ju d i c a t io n C o m m i t t e e m a d e a r e c o m m e n d a t io n t o M r M o y a n e w h o t h e n a p p r o v e d i t b y a p p e n d i n g h is s i g n a t u r e to t h e r e p o r t . 10 H e c a n n o t b u t h a v e k n o w n t h a t t h e N PA’s d e c is i o n w a s n o t th e e n d o f th e p r o c e s s a n d c a n n o t b u t h a v e k n o w n t h a t N e w I n t e g r a te d C r e d i t S o l u ti o n s w a s a p p o i n te d b e a r in g i n m i n d t h a t h e a p p r o v e d i t .” I n r e g a r d t o t h is tr a n s a c ti o n , th e a w a r d o f th is c o n tr a c t i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o a ls o p o i n t o u t t h a t i n h i s o p p o s i n g a ff i d a v i t M r G o r d h a n r e fe r r e d t o a n a ff id a v i t t h a t h e s a id h e s e n t t o t h e d is c ip li n a r y e n q u i r y b e f o r e w h ic h M r M o y a n e w a s s u p p o s e d t o a p p e a r a n d h e p o i n t e d o u t th a t i n t h a t a ffi d a v i t , a n d t h a t a ff i d a v i t w a s a t t a c h e d t o h i s a ffi d a v it a s o n e o f t h e a n n e x u r e s , th a t i n t h a t a ff id a v i t h e p o in t e d o u t t h a t in d e e d t h e r e w a s 20 e v e n a tr a n s c r i p t o f w h a t w a s s a i d b y M r M o y a n e i n P a r l i a m e n t i n r e g a r d t o th e a w a r d o f th is c o n tr a c t. M r G o r d h a n m a d e i t c l e a r t h a t t h e tr a n s c r ip t i n d ic a te d t h a t M r M o y a n e h a d d e n i e d th a t h e h a d b e e n in v o lv e d i n th e a w a r d o f t h e c o n tr a c t to th a t c o m p a n y a n d a c c o r d i n g to t h a t t r a n s c r i p t a n d a c c o r d i n g t o M r G o r d h a n M r M o y a n e , t h e a p p l ic a n t , h a d a d m i tt e d w h e n h e a p p e a r e d b e fo r e t h e r e l e v a n t c o m m i t t e e i n Page 36 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 P a r li a m e n t t h a t h e , M r M o n y e k i , o f t h a t c o m p a n y, w a s a fr i e n d o f h is , s o t h e q u e s t io n t h a t a r is e s t h e r e fo r e is w h a t i t is t h a t t h e a p p l ic a n t s a i d t o P a r li a m e n t a b o u t w h e t h e r h e w a s in v o l v e d i n t h e a w a r d o f t h e c o n tr a c t. I f h e s a id a s t h e tr a n s c r ip t o r t h e a ff id a v i t b y M r G o r d h a n s u g g e s t s t h a t h e h a d n o t b e e n in v o lv e d t h e p o s i t io n i s t h a t t h e S A R S C o m m i s s i o n f o u n d th a t i n fa c t h e h a d b e e n i n v o l v e d i n th e a w a r d i n g o f that contract. What then becomes important is the fact th a t in this C o m m i s s i o n , i n h is a p p lic a ti o n f o r l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r G o r d h a n 10 in r e g a r d t o t h i s i s s u e t h e a p p l ic a n t t o o k t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t th e a l l e g a ti o n t h a t m a d e a s q u o t e d b y h i m i n th e p a r a g r a p h t h a t I i n d i c a t e d e a r l i e r o n w h ic h is in p a r a g r a p h 4 9 o f th is d e c is io n , h e i n d ic a t e d t h a t a l l t h o s e a l le g a ti o n s w e r e f a ls e , o r th a t a l le g a ti o n o f h is in v o lv e m e n t w a s f a l s e a n d th e a l le g a ti o n t h a t h e li e d i n P a r l i a m e n t w a s fa ls e . H o w e v e r h e d i d n o t p r o c e e d t o g iv e h is f u ll v e r s io n a s t o w h a t e x a c tl y h e s a id in P a r li a m e n t a n d to a l s o s ta t e w h e th e r h is v e r s i o n i s t h a t h e d id n o t ta k e p a r t i n t h e a w a r d o f t h e c o n tr a c t o r w h e t h e r h e a d m i t s th a t h e t o o k p a r t b u t d e n i e s t h a t s u c h p a r t ic ip a ti o n w a s i m p r o p e r. 20 I t s e e m s t o m e t h a t i n t h is r e g a r d t o s a y t h e l e a s t t h e a p p lic a n t fa il e d to g iv e h is v e r s io n o f w h a t h a p p e n e d i n r e g a r d t o a n is s u e o n w h ic h h e s e e k s le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n . In t e r m s o f t h e r u l e s a s d i s c u s s e d e a r li e r h e w a s o b l ig e d to g i v e h is f u ll v e r s i o n in r e g a r d t o t h a t is s u e b u t h e h a s f a il e d t o d o s o . F o r t h a t r e a s o n i n r e g a r d t o h is r e q u e s t f o r le a v e t o c r o s s e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n i n r e g a r d to t h a t is s u e th e r e fo r e h i s a p p l ic a ti o n Page 37 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 c a n n o t b e a c c e p te d i n r e g a r d to t h a t is s u e . T h e n e x t i s c r o s s - e x a mi n a ti o n t h e m e f o u r, t h a t is a l le g e d r a c is t a n d h a t e fu l u t t e r a n c e s , i m p a ir m e n t o f d ig n it y a n d v e n d e t t a . Th is is t h e f o u r t h c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n t h e m e o n w h i c h t h e a p p lic a n t s e e k s l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n . U n d e r i t th e a p p li c a n t s i m p ly s a y s : “26. T h e s e is s u e s w h i c h w il l b e t r e a te d a s a d i s c r e e t t h e m e w il l h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n a l l u d e d t o i n d i ff e r e n t c o n te x t a b o v e . 27. U n d e r t h i s th e m e t h e i s s u e w il l b e i n v o k e d i n a separate 10 c o n ta in e d context in of inter the a l ia c o n s t it u ti o n a l S e c t io n o b l i g a ti o n 96(2)(b) of the C o n s t i tu t io n a s w e ll a s S e c ti o n 1 9 5 th e r e o f . 28. N o n e w d o c u m e n ta t io n w i ll b e r e li e d o n o t h e r th a n what has a lr e a d y C o n s t i tu t io n a l Court been annexed A ff id a v i t, [AGTM2, Annexure th e TMZ3] h e r e t o .” T h e a p p l ic a n t d o e s n o t m a k e a n y e ff o r t i n h i s d i s c u s s io n o f t h is c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n t h e m e t o d e m o n s tr a te h o w i t is n e c e s s a r y a n d i n t h e b e s t in t e r e s ts o f t h e f u n c t i o n o f th is C o m m i s s i o n th a t h e s h o u l d b e g r a n t e d 20 le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e Mr G o r d h a n o n t h e s e is s u e s o r o n t h i s t h e m e a n d t h a t w o u l d b e a r e a s o n w h y le a v e s h o u ld n o t b e g r a n te d t h a t h e s h o u l d c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r G o r d h a n i n r e g a r d t o th a t i s s u e . T h e la s t c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n t h e m e is c r o s s - e x a m i n a t i o n t h e m e fi v e , a n d t h a t i s a b o u t t h e r o le o f t h e s o - c a l le d R o g u e U n i t . U n d e r t h i s c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n t h e m e t h e a p p li c a n t s e e k s l e a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e Page 38 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M r G o r d h a n o n t h e a ll e g e d R o g u e U n i t , i ts e x is t e n c e a n d l a w fu l n e s s . T h e a p p l ic a n t d o e s n o t s a y u n d e r t h is th e m e w h a t i t is t h a t M r G o r d h a n s a i d i n h is a ff i d a v i t o r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e t h i s C o m m i s s io n t h a t i m p li c a t e d h i m i n S ta t e C a p t u r e o r c o r r u p ti o n in r e g a r d t o th e U n i t . I n t e r e s t in g l y th e a p p lic a n t s t a t e s i n p a r a g r a p h 3 0 . 1 o f h is f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v it u n d e r t h is t h e m e : “ T h i s is s u e p l a y s a c e n tr a l r o le i n th a t t h e e x is t e n c e a n d la w fu l n e s s of the Rogue in d e p e n d e n tly e x h a u s t e d . 10 Unit was r e p e a t e d ly and T h e l ik e s o f M r G o r d h a n f a ls e ly a s s e r t th a t t h i s is n o t th e c a s e . In th is r e g a r d I a t ta c h a c o p y of the Sekane report as Annexure TMZ4. I w i ll s o o n a ls o p r o v i d e a c o p y o f K P M G r e p o r t i n d u e c o u r s e .” T h e q u e s t i o n a r i s e s i f t h e e x is te n c e a n d l a w f u l n e s s o f t h e a l le g e d R o g u e U n i t h a v e b e e n r e p e a t e d ly a n d in d e p e n d e n tl y e x h a u s te d w h y is it n e c e s s a r y a n d in t h e b e s t i n te r e s t s o f th e f u n c ti o n o f t h e C o m m is s i o n t o a l lo w c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n o n i t. I n h i s o p p o s i n g a ff id a v i t M r G o r d h a n p o i n t s o u t t h a t t h e S A R S C o m m is s i o n c o n s id e r e d t h e s e v e r y is s u e s in r e g a r d to t h e u n i t a n d c o n c l u d e d t h a t t h e u n i t w a s l a w fu l . I t s e e m s to m e t h a t t h e a p p l ic a n t h a s n o t s h o w n t h a t in r e g a r d t o t h e s o - c a ll e d 20 R o g u e U n i t i t is n e c e s s a r y a n d i n b e s t in t e r e s ts o f t h e fu n c t io n o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n t h a t h e s h o u ld b e g r a n t e d le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r Gordhan. I n h i s s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it t h e a p p l ic a n t in d i c a t e d t h a t h e o r h is l e g a l t e a m h a d h a d th e o p p o r tu n i t y o f s t u d y i n g t h e tr a n s c r ip t o f M r G o r d h a n ’s o r a l e v i d e n c e . H e s a i d t h a t e x c e p t fo r o n e is s u e h e s a w Page 39 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 n o r e a s o n t o a d d t o w h a t h e h a d a lr e a d y c o v e r e d in h i s f o u n d in g a ffi d a v i t . H e s a id t h a t th e e x c e p ti o n r e l a t e d t o M r G o r d h a n ’s e v i d e n c e r e g a r d in g h is l a y i n g o f c r i m i n a l c h a r g e s r e la ti n g t o th e s o - c a ll e d R o g u e U n i t a g a i n s t h i m w it h th e H a w k s o n 1 5 M a y 2 0 1 5 . T h e a p p li c a n t q u o t e d w h a t M r G o r d h a n s a id a b o u t h i m h a v i n g la id c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m . T h e a p p l ic a n t s a id : “ Ab o u t t h a t is s u e G o r d h a n h a d th e f o ll o w i n g t o s a y. This e n v e l o p e c o n t a i n e d 2 7 q u e s ti o n s a d d r e s s e d t o m e fr o m t h e Hawks demanding that they be answered by 2 March 2016. 10 T h e q u e s t io n s r e l a t e d to t h e h i g h - r i s k i n v e s ti g a ti o n u n i t w it h in S A R S f o r m e d y e a r s e a r li e r. C h a r g e s a g a i n s t m e r e l a ti n g t o t h a t u n i t h a d b e e n fi l e d b y M r M o y a n e o n 1 5 M a y 2 0 1 5 .” A f t e r q u o ti n g t h i s p a s s a g e t h e a p p li c a n t s a y s I i n te n d t o c r o s s - e x a m in e M r G o r d h a n e x te n s iv e l y o n t h is is s u e s o a s t o a s s is t t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n e v a l u a t i n g a n u m b e r o f i s s u e s w h ic h t h e a p p li c a n t s e ts o u t . H e g iv e s a lis t o f t h r e e is s u e s , h e s a y s t h a t t h e s e a r e ” (a) “ T h e a c t u a l e v e n ts a n d e v i d e n ti a l m a t e r i a l w h ic h l e d h i m t o la y c h a r g e s a g a i n s t a m o n g o th e r s M r G o r d h a n s o a s t o a s s e s s w h e t h e r o r n o t th e r e w a s p r o b a b le c a u s e o r w h e t h e r a s i m p li e d b y M r G o r d h a n I w a s o u t o f m a lic e a n d 20 p e r s o n a l v i n d ic t iv e n e s s a n d t h e li k e . (b) T h e c r e d i b i li t y o f M r G o r d h a n a s a w i t n e s s a n d w h e t h e r a n y th in g h e s a y s i n c lu d i n g h is i m p li c a t io n o f m e in a ll e g e d S t a te C a p t u r e c a n e v e r b e ta k e n w i t h a n y t h i n g l e s s t h a n a p i n c h o f s a lt . Page 40 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 (c) H i s m o t i v e s a n d p a i n ti n g h i m s e l f a s in n o c e n t u n t a i n te d b y S t a te C a p t u r e a n d a p a r a g o n o f v ir tu e n a m e ly t o c o n c e a l h is o w n c e n tr a l r o l e i n S t a te C a p t u r e .” O u t o f a ll t h e s e t h r e e is s u e s t h a t t h e a p p li c a n t h a s s e t o u t i n t h e p r e c e d in g p a r a g r a p h w h ic h I h a v e j u s t f i n i s h e d r e a d i n g t h e o n ly i s s u e t h a t h a s c a u s e d m e s o m e c o n c e r n is o n e r e l a ti n g t o t h e a ll e g a t io n t h a t M r G o r d h a n a l le g e d m a l ic e o n th e p a r t o f t h e a p p l ic a n t i n l a y in g charges against him. W h e n o n e r e a d s M r G o r d h a n ’s f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v it t h e r e a r e 10 p l a c e s w h e r e o n e g e ts t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t h e m a y b e s u g g e s ti n g th a t i n la y i n g c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m t h e a p p lic a n t w a s p a r t o f a s c h e m e t h a t s o u g h t t o c a p t u r e th e N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y, b u t w h e n o n e r e a d s c e r t a i n p a r a g r a p h s i n th e f o u n d i n g a ffi d a v i t o n e m a y a ls o g e t s o m e t i m e s t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t w h a t h e s a y s in t h a t r e g a r d m i g h t b e li m i t e d t o t h e H a w k s w h o s e r v e d h i m w it h 2 7 q u e s ti o n s w h e n t h e y w e r e u n d e r th e le a d e r s h i p o f G e n e r a l N tl e m e z a . Al s o w h e n o n e h a s r e g a r d t o Mr G o r d h a n ’s o p p o s i n g a ff i d a v i t i n r e s p o n d in g t o t h e a ff i d a v i t o f t h e a p p lic a n t t h e r e o n e s e e s th a t i t a p p e a r s t h a t h e m i g h t b e e q u iv o c a ti n g w i t h r e g a r d t o w h e t h e r h e p r e s s e s th e p o in t r e l a ti n g t o w h a t t h e m o tiv e s 20 o f t h e a p p li c a n t w e r e i n l a y i n g t h e c h a r g e s , b u t a ls o w h e n o n e h a s r e g a r d t o t h e a p p li c a n t o n e c a n s e e th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 5 o f h is a ff i d a v i t w h e r e h e s e ts w h a t I ’v e c a ll e d p a r a g r a p h – in p a r a g r a p h 6 r a t h e r n o t p a r a g r a p h 5 i n p a r a g r a p h 6 w h e r e h e s e ts o u t w h a t I ’v e c a l le d th e p a r a g r a p h is s u e s i n r e g a r d t o w h ic h h e s o u g h t l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r G o r d h a n t h e r e is n o r e f e r e n c e to a n y a ll e g a ti o n b y Mr G o r d h a n t h a t Page 41 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 h e a c t e d w i t h m a lic e o r h e w a s a c c u s i n g h i m o f m a l ic e i n la y i n g th e c o m p la i n t . I t s e e m s t o m e t h a t i t w o u l d b e b e tt e r t h a t I g e t c l a r i f ic a ti o n fr o m b o t h s i d e s i n r e g a r d to th is i s s u e b e f o r e I m a k e a n y f in a l d e c i s i o n . I t h e r e fo r e p r o p o s e t h a t i n r e g a r d t o t h is p a r t ic u l a r i s s u e I w il l is s u e d ir e c t io n s in t h e n e x t fe w d a y s i n w h ic h I w il l s e t o u t c l e a r l y w h a t I w o u ld lik e b o t h p a r ti e s t o a d d r e s s b e f o r e I m a k e a d e c i s i o n in r e g a r d t o that issue. O t h e r th a n t h a t is s u e I a m s a t is fi e d h a v i n g r e g a r d t o a ll t h e 10 c ir c u m s ta n c e s t h a t t h e r e is n o o t h e r is s u e i n r e g a r d to w h i c h t h e a p p lic a n t s h o u l d b e g r a n t e d le a v e t o c r o s s - e x a mi n e M r G o r d h a n a n d t h e r e f o r e i n r e g a r d t o a l l o th e r is s u e s th e a p p li c a n t ’s a p p l ic a t i o n s fa ll s t o b e d is m is s e d a n d in r e g a r d t o th e is s u e t o w h ic h I h a v e r e f e r r e d t h a t is s u e r e m a in s r e s e r v e d a n d I w il l is s u e d ir e c ti o n s a n d a s k , d ir e c t t h e p a r t i e s t o fi le w r i t t e n s u b m is s i o n s s o a s t o a ff o r d m e m o r e c l a r i fi c a t io n a s t o e x a c t ly w h a t – w h e r e t h e y s ta n d in r e g a r d t o t h a t i s s u e . O n c e a ll the written s u b m is s io n s are in I would g iv e the issue f u r th e r c o n s i d e r a ti o n s a n d a n n o u n c e my d e c i s i o n i n d u e c o u r s e . T h e r e f o r e t h e d e c is io n I m a k e is t h e f o l lo w in g : 20 DECISION (a) S u b j e c t t o ( b ) b e l o w t h e A P P L I C A N T ’ S A P P L I C AT I O N F O R L E AV E TO C R O S S - E X A M I N E M R G O R D H A N I S D I S M I S S E D ; (b) D ir e c t io n s w il l b e i s s u e d in t h e n e x t f e w d a y s f o r t h e p a r ti e s t o Page 42 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 d e li v e r w r i t te n s u b m is s io n s i n r e g a r d th e i s s u e o f w h e t h e r o r n o t M r G o r d h a n ’s p o s i t io n is th a t in l a y i n g c h a r g e s a g a i n s t h i m t h e a p p li c a n t d i d s o w i th m a li c e a n d b o t h p a r t ie s w il l s u b m i t written s u b m is s io n s and then I w i ll make my d e c is io n t h e r e a f te r. T h a t is m y d e c is i o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o t e d , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w e w il l n e e d t o t a k e th e te a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON : And then we can proceed after that. I t is e l e v e n o ’c l o c k , w e w i ll a d j o u r n a n d r e s u m e a t q u a r t e r p a s t e l e v e n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S C H A I R P E R S O N : Th o s e w h o m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n h e r e e a r l ie r o n g o o d m o r n in g to e v e r y b o d y. T h a n k y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M o r n i n g a g a i n C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r Pr e to r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Before th e a d j o u r n m e n t y e s t e r d a y M r M c Br i d e w e w e r e d e a li n g w i th t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f t h e te l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t io n a t p a g e 1 5 5 7 o f t h e b u n d l e s w h ic h is Y d . W e h a d g o t to p a g e 1 5 6 4 a n d w e w e r e d is c u s s i n g t h e li s t o f p e r s o n s a t the top of page 1565 who were at the very l east subject matter of an in v e s t i g a t io n . D o y o u s e e th a t l is t o f p e r s o n s a t 1 5 6 5 ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s I h a v e it . Page 43 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t li s t w o u l d h a v e i n c l u d e d Mr M a h l a n g u o n e o f t h e s p e a k e r s o n t h e tr a n s c r i p t a s w e ll a s y o u r s e l f a s ED? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : E x e c u ti v e D i r e c t o r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o w y o u g o i n g to t e l l th e C h a ir in a m o m e n t h o p e f u l ly in a m o m e n t o f t h e – o f t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n c o n d u c t e d b y I P I D i n t o c e r t a i n p o l ic e o ffi c e r s a n d o f w h a t is r e fe r r e d t o 10 as a c o u n te r i n v e s t ig a ti o n by those p o li c e o ff ic e r s or persons a s s o c i a t e d w i t h th e m i n t o I P I D a n d w e w i l l d e a l w i th t h a t. T h a t m a t t e r e v e n t u a l ly c a m e b e f o r e H is L o r d s h i p M r J u s t ic e To u c h t o n w h o d e a lt w i t h t h e r e s u l t a n d d is p u te in m a t t e r s a r is i n g fr o m t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d t h e c o u n t e r in v e s t i g a t io n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o w e w il l e x p l a i n t h e o r i g i n s o f t h a t l is t o f n a m e s i n d u e c o u r s e b u t i t – w h a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y t o l d t h e C h a ir is t h a t t h e c o n te x t o f a ll t h is is w h a t y o u d e s c r i b e d a s a t l e a s t a q u e s t io n a b l e c o u n te r i n v e s ti g a ti o n b y p o li c e i n to I P I D i n v e s t ig a to r s . 20 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : Ye s t h a t i s c o r r e c t . I th i n k t h e l a r g e r p ic t u r e is i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e i t – i t e x h ib i ts t h e e x t e n t t o w h i c h p o lic e a r e n o t d o i n g th e ir w o r k a n d a r e b u s y w i t h p r o t e c t in g t h e ms e lv e s fr o m p r e v i o u s a n d c o n t i n u in g w r o n g d o i n g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A lr ig h t n o w w e a r e g o in g t o c o m e to t h a t i n a m o m e n t . I f w e c o u l d ju s t c o m p l e te t h e r e fe r e n c e s i n Page 44 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 t h e tr a n s c r i p t a n d g o t o p a g e 1 5 6 6 . A t t h e t o p o f t h e p a g e t h e E n g l is h portion reads: “Okay I do not know but if you have something on t h o s e s e n io r s y o u w il l p r e s e n t i t a l o n g t h e n y o u w o u ld e x p la i n w h a t t h e y w e r e u p t o . We had a m e e ti n g o n t h a t d a te t h e y b r i e fe d u s o n w h a t t o d o w h ic h I p e r s o n a ll y k n o w th a t .” A n d th is is n o w a p e r s o n r e f e r r e d t o a s m a l e 2 , d o y o u k n o w w h o t h a t is ? 10 P e r h a p s M r M a h la n g u w i ll g iv e s o m e c l a r i ty i n r e s p e c t o f th a t b u t o n c e a g a i n t h e t h e m e th a t e m e r g e s is th a t th e p e r s o n s i n v o lv e d i n t h is t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t io n s e e m e d to b e ta lk i n g a b o u t t h e o b t a i n i n g o f e v i d e n c e in r e s p e c t o f a c o u n t e r i n v e s ti g a t io n a n d c o o p e r a ti o n r e q u ir e d in o r d e r t o o b t a i n t h o s e – t h a t e v i d e n c e a g a in s t t h e b a c k g r o u n d o f a n o ffe r o f p r o m o t i o n . D o y o u s e e t h a t ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: C h a ir y e s e x c e p t I d o n o t k n o w t h e e x a c t c o n te x t a n d w h y i t is m a le 2 . I f I h e a r i t m a y b e I w i ll b e a b l e t o s e e w h e th e r th is is … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t w e ll le t u s j u s t summarise. 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r r e f e r e n c e s t o th is tr a n s c r i p t in s o f a r a s w e a r e a b l e . T h i s is a tr a n s c r ip t o f a te l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t i o n o f a n u n c e r t a i n d a te b e t w e e n a M r M a h l a n g u a n I P I D i n v e s ti g a t o r a n d M r G o m o a s e n i o r o ff ic e r i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e , c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . Page 45 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e f ir s t p a r t o f t h e c o n v e r s a t io n d e a ls w i t h w h a t i s i n e ffe c t a n o ffe r o r a p r o s p e c t o f a s u b s ta n ti a l p r o m o ti o n t o C o lo n e l i n C r i m i n a l I n t e ll ig e n c e – i n C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e r e i s t h e n a b r ie f r e f e r e n c e t o a f e a r t h a t t h is m i g h t c o n s ti t u t e fa v o u r i ti s m o r c o r r u p ti o n a n d th o s e is s u e s a r e d e a l t w it h . 10 T h e r e is th e n a d is c u s s i o n o n e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o a c r i m i n a l in v e s t i g a t io n w h e r e M r M a h l a n g u m i g h t b e a n accused? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d h e is c l e a r l y s p e a k in g t o M r G o m o a b o u t b r in g in g e v i d e n c e a g a i n s t h is c o - a c c u s e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u s a y t h i s i s th e c o u n te r in v e s t i g a t io n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : 20 I n th a t c o n t e x t y o u a r e s a i d t o be going down? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t a n d th e n f in a lly w e s e e in d i c a t io n s w h ic h Mr M a h l a n g u w i ll e x p la in o r s u g g e s ti o n s o f fi n d i n g evidence? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 46 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p u r s u a n c e o f w h a t is b e i n g d is c u s s e d . I f w e c a n m o v e o n t h e n to p a r a g r a p h 7 9 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t . Yo u h a v e to l d t h e C h a ir a lr e a d y i n a n o th e r p a r a g r a p h a b o u t y o u r d is c o v e r y w h e n y o u r e t u r n e d a f te r y o u r s u s p e n s i o n t h a t c a s e s b e i n g in v e s t i g a t e d b y I P I D h a d b e e n p r e m a t u r e l y c lo s e d w it h o u t c a r r y i n g o u t p r o p e r p r o c e d u r e s a n d t h is w a s d o n e i n c e r t a i n i n s t a n c e s y o u s a y to m a n i p u l a te t h e s ta t is tic s u p w a r d s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t. Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y to ld th e 10 C h a ir t h a t t h i s w a s i n t e n d e d t o p o r tr a y a n i m p r e s s i o n t h a t p e r fo r m a n c e h a d b e e n b e t te r u n d e r y o u r r e p l a c e m e n t o n a n a c ti n g b a s is M r K g a g m a n y a n e – K g a m a n y a n e b e t te r p e r f o r m a n c e t h a n u n d e r y o u r watch? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And you say that the Auditor G e n e r a l h a d n o tic e d t h is i s s u e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d a s a r e s u lt o f y o u r in v e s t i g a t io n s i n t o t h e s e fa c t s o r a ll e g a ti o n s ? 20 Were there any d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : Ye s there was a d is c i p l in a r y in v e s t i g a t io n s i n t o M o r e m a I a m n o t s u r e t h e o u t c o m e a n d a t w h ic h s t a g e i t w a s b u t M r M o r e m a l e ft s o o n a ft e r w a r d s . H e w a s a ls o o n e o f t h o s e w h o I n e v e r s a w a g a in . A n d t h e r e w a s a n i n v e s ti g a ti n g i n t o th e s p e c i a l c l o s u r e s a n d o n e e m p l o y e e w a s – w a s e v e n t u a l ly d is m is s e d . Page 47 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 T h e r e w a s a ls o a c r i m i n a l c a s e th a t w a s l a i d a t P r e t o r ia C e n tr a l a b o u t d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f j u s t ic e w i t h s o m e o f t h e s e c a s e s a n d I t h i n k o n e o f th e p e o p l e in t h e – i n te r ms o f t h e in t e r n a l d is c i p l in a r y a n d t h e c r i m i n a l c a s e a s a s u s p e c t w a s M r K g a m a n y a n e h i m s e l f a n d h e a ls o t h e n l e f t. H e w a s t h e n tr a n s f e r r e d t o t h e D P C I . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . Do I understand you c o r r e c t ly o n e e m p l o y e e w a s d is m is s e d a n d a n o t h e r e m p lo y e e r e s i g n e d a n d th e r e w e r e o t h e r s w h o w e r e a ls o s u b je c t to in v e s t i g a t io n i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e s e is s u e s ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O f i n e ff e c t f a l s i fy in g s t a t is ti c s b y c lo s i n g c a s e s p r e m a t u r e ly a n d i m p r o p e r ly ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Al r i g h t . L e t u s m o v e o n t h e n t o t h e c o u n t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n t h a t w e fl a g g e d e a r l ie r in y o u r e v i d e n c e . A t p a r a g r a p h 8 0 y o u d e a l w i t h t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n c o n d u c t e d b y I P I D i n t o t h e t h e n a c ti n g N a ti o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r o f P o lic e G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : 20 Pl e a s e b r ie f ly p r o v i d e th e b a c k g r o u n d t o th a t i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : O k a y. S o d u r i n g m y s u s p e n s io n a t s o m e s t a g e M a r c h 2 0 1 6 P a u l O ’ S u lli v a n w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y p o l ic e o ffic e r s a t s o m e s t a g e p r i o r to t h a t . As a result he then lai d a c o m p la i n t w i t h I P I D a n d t h e c o m p l a i n t d e a l t w i t h I t h i n k i n it i a l ly s u b s t a n d a r d e q u i p m e n t a t th e f o r e n s i c s l a b i n c l u d in g i f I r e m e m b e r Page 48 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 c o r r e c t ly s o m e c h e m ic a l s t h a t w e r e u s e d in a t e s ti n g a n d fo r e x a m p l e fi n g e r p r i n t b r u s h e s S o t h e f in g e r p r i n t b r u s h e s h a v e t o b e o f a p a r t ic u l a r s p e c i fi c a t io n b u t in s t e a d s ig n i fi c a n t a m o u n t o f t h e w r o n g b r u s h e s w e r e b o u g h t a n d a c o m p la i n t w a s la id a n d t h e c o m p l a i n t w a s g iv e n t o i n i t ia lly M o r e m a a n d G o m o t o d e a l w i th . O n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s who had approached… A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o r r y b e f o r e y o u g o o n . A t t h a t ti m e w a s M r G o m o p a r t o f I P I D ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s h e w a s a p p o i n t e d in A u g u s t 10 2015. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : In t o I P I D . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s . In a n y e v e n t y o u s a y th e r e w a s a c o m p la i n t l a i d w i th I P I D a b o u t t h e c o n d u c t o f G e n e r a l P h a h la n e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : I n b r o a d t e r m s h o w w o u ld y o u – h o w w o u ld o n e c a t e g o r is e t h o s e c o m p l a i n t s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : In i ti a l ly th e c o m p la in t … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u d e a l w i t h th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 20 80. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: 8 0 . W e ll t h e is s u e s a b o u t t h e c o r r u p t r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e o r t h e a l l e g a ti o n s o f a c o r r u p t r e l a ti o n s G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a n d a n u m b e r o f s e r v i c e p r o v id e r s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : A n d t h a t w a s t h e in i ti a l t h r u s t o f t h e Page 49 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 in v e s t i g a t io n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : That was brought to the a tt e n ti o n o f Mr K g a m a n y a n e d u r i n g y o u r s u s p e n s i o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Wa s t h a t c a s e t h e n b r o u g h t t o your attention? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : 10 O n m y r e tu r n P a u l O ’ S u ll iv a n s e n t a c o m p la i n t t o m e r e q u e s t i n g t h e s t a t u s u p d a t e o f t h e c a s e w h ic h a fe w m o n th s e a r li e r h e h a d c o m p la i n e d a b o u t t o I P I D . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t w h e n y o u d is c o v e r e d t h e – t h a t t w o f il e s h a d b e e n o p e n e d a n d b o t h o f t h e m h a d b e e n c l o s e d o n a c c o u n t o f t h e fa c t t h a t th e y w e r e d u p l i c a t e s o f o n e a n o t h e r ? Yo u m e n ti o n e d th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 8 1 ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s – n o t i m m e d i a t e ly i t is o n l y a f te r M r Sesoko came back that I was d y s f u n c ti o n a li ty a n d w r o n g d o i n g . made aware of the extent of S o a t t h a t s t a g e Mr S e s o k o i s n o t b a c k y e t . I t h i n k h e o n ly c o m e s b a c k e i t h e r D e c e m b e r o r J a n u a r y. A n d 20 t h a t is d ir e c t ly l in k e d t o h o w h e c o m p r is e d th e ta s k t e a m t o t h e n d e a l w i t h t h e P h a h la n e i n v e s ti g a ti o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t . Yo u d o m e n t i o n t h e d u p lic a t e f il e s b e i n g c l o s e d in t h e s a m e p a r a g r a p h w h e r e y o u t a lk a b o u t O ’ S u l liv a n ’s c o m p l a in t b u t y o u s a y th e y a r e s e p a r a te in t i m e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : Ye s i t is j u s t – it i s M r S e s o k o w h o Page 50 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 b r i e f e d m e t h a t t h i s is w h a t w a s g o i n g o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n a n y e v e n t … M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : U p o n h is r e tu r n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A s a r e s u l t o f t h e c o m p l a i n ts l a i d b y O ’ S u l li v a n a n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h e m a t t e r a g a i n b e in g b r o u g h t t o y o u r a tt e n ti o n w a s a t a s k t e a m e s t a b li s h e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s i t w a s … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : When was the task team e s t a b li s h e d i n r e la t io n to y o u r s u s p e n s i o n a n d r e t u r n ? 10 Yo u d e a l w i t h that in paragraph 82. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : J a it is a r o u n d a b o u t N o v e m b e r t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f N o v e m b e r w e e s t a b li s h e d a t a s k t e a m . It c o u l d h a v e b e e n o n e o r tw o w e e k s e a r l i e r b u t … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t y e a r ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: 2016. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A r e y o u b a c k b y t h i s s ta g e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Ye s I a m j u s t – I a r r iv e – I r e tu r n to w o r k th e 1 9 O c t o b e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A l r i g h t . S o th e r e is a c o m p l a i n t 20 a b o u t c o r r u p t io n o r c o r r u p t r e l a ti o n s h i p s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A ll e g e d b e t w e e n G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a n d s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t i s b r o u g h t t o y o u r a c t in g Page 51 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 predecessor Mr Kgamanyane? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O n y o u r r e t u r n y o u r e c e iv e a c o m – f u r t h e r c o m p l a i n t b y P a u l O ’ S u ll iv a n t h a t t h e s e m a t te r s h a v e n o t been attended to? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t a s k t e a m i s e s t a b l is h e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is r ig h t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y w h o w e r e m e m b e r s o f t h a t 10 task team? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I f I c a n j u s t a d d a ls o d u r in g t h e p e r io d m e m b e r s o f P O P C R U a l s o m a d e a n a p p o in t m e n t a n d c a m e to s e e m e a t t h e o ff ic e a b o u t th e s a m e c o m p l a in t a r o u n d a b o u t e n d o f O c t o b e r b e g in n i n g o f N o v e m b e r a l s o . T h e y h a d i n d ic a te d to m e t h a t th e y h a d h a d s o m e i n te r a c t i o n w it h M r M a n d l a M a h l a n g u a n d a s a r e s u lt o f t h a t I r e q u e s t e d a b r i e fi n g fr o m M r M a h la n g u w h ic h h e g a v e t o m e in d ic a t e d h e k n e w a b i t a b o u t t h e c a s e a n d t h a t M o r e m a a n d G o m o w e r e h a n d li n g it . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t w a s M r M a h l a n g u p a r t o f 20 t h is t a s k t e a m ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : T h a t is t h e r e a s o n w h y I a p p o i n t e d h i m to head the task team because he had some knowledge of it. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e k n o w is t h is t h e s a m e mr M a h l a n g u a s t h e p e r s o n w h o p a r ti c i p a t e d i n t h e te l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a t i o n we have just dealt with? Page 52 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t. W h o e ls e w a s o n t h e t a s k team? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I n it i a ll y i t w a s M r Te m a n e B i n a n g a n d M r M a n ts h a R a p h e s u a n d l a te r o n Mr N k a b i n d e w a s c o n d u c ti n g a c o u r s e o r w a s a t t e n d i n g a c o u r s e in P r e t o r ia . H e is b a s e d i n t h e K Z N o ffic e a n d h e a p p r o a c h e d M r M a h l a n g u to r e q u e s t t o b e p l a c e d o n t h e t a s k t e a m a n d M r M a h l a n g u w r o t e to m e a n d r e q u e s te d t h a t h e n e e d s e x tr a h e l p o n t h e t a s k t e a m . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o w i f y o u w o u ld g o b a c k t o p a g e 1 5 6 5 p l e a s e . Th is i s t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f th e te l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Okay I have it. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t s e e m s t h a t t h e r e is s o m e c o in c i d e n c e b e tw e e n t h e m e m b e r s o f th e t a s k te a m t h a t y o u r e f e r t o i n p a r a g r a p h 8 2 w h o a r e n o w i n v e s t ig a ti n g G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is r i g h t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O r a c ti n g N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r P h a h l a n e o n t h e o n e h a n d a n d t h e l is t o f p e r s o n s w h o a r e t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r o f t h e c o l le c ti o n o f e v id e n c e a n d p o t e n t ia l c h a r g e s o n p a g e 1 5 6 5 20 a t t h e t o p o f th e p a g e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N k a b i n d e , B i n a n g a n d M a h l a n g u a r e m e n t io n e d t h e r e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is r i g h t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o w h a t i s t h e li n k ? Page 53 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : 1565 includes complainant W e l l th e li n k i s t h a t t h a t lis t o n p a g e and i n v e s ti g a to r s dealing w i th the c o m p la i n t s r e l a t e d t o th e fo r e n s ic l a b w h ic h a t r e le v a n t ti m e s w e r e u n d e r th e c o m m a n d o f G e n e r a l P h a h la n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right. So what appears to be h a p p e n in g o n th e fa c e o f i t a n d t h e r e w i l l b e fu r t h e r e v i d e n c e to d e a l w i t h th is a n d p la c e i t i n t o f u ll c o n te x t w i t h fu r t h e r f a c ts is t h a t M a h l a n g u i s a p p r o a c h e d w i th a n o ff e r o f p r o m o ti o n o r t h e p r o s p e c t o f p r o m o ti o n . 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To t e s t if y a g a i n s t a r a n g e o f p e o p l e s o m e o r a ll o f w h o m o r s o m e o f w h o m a r e m e m b e r s o f t h e ta s k t e a m i n v e s ti g a ti n g G e n e r a l P h a h la n e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d fr o m y o u r e v i d e n c e w h ic h y o u a r e g o in g t o g iv e t o t h e C h a i r n o w i s p a r t o f w h a t w a s t e r m e d a c o u n t e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I j u s t w a n t to a d d a s m a l l p o i n t o n . A t t h e t i m e w h e n th is t a s k w a s s e t u p i n N o v e m b e r M r M a h l a n g u d u r i n g h is r e g u la r r e p o r ts t o m e i n d ic a te d to m e t h a t h e m e t G o m o i n t h e p a s s a g e s a n d G o m o s a id t o h i m , “ H a t h e r e i s n o t h i n g i n t h a t c a s e w e lo o k e d a t i t a lr e a d y ’ m e a n in g th e P h a h la n e c a s e . A n d w h e n h e t o l d m e t h is I s a i d j u s t i g n o r e i t y o u g o a n d in v e s ti g a t e a n d s e e w h a t y o u f i n d . Page 54 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. W h a t w a s – i n p a r a g r a p h 8 3 y o u d e a l w i t h t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r a n d t h is is r e le v a n t t o t h e c o u n t e r in v e s t i g a t io n o f s o m e o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a g a in s t G e n e r a l P h a h la n e . W h a t w a s th a t s u b j e c t m a t te r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y i n i ti a l ly t h e i s s u e w a s t h a t o n e o f t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s t h a t [i n d is t in c t] i n f o r m a ti o n h a d a s s i s te d in th e f u n d i n g o f t h e b u il d in g o f t h e – o f M r P h a h l a n e ’s h o u s e a n d … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F u n d e d b y w h o m a l l e g e d ly ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : B y t h e s e r v ic e p r o v id e r. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I think it was Service Provider was c a l l e d C r i m i n a li s tic s . Th e y w e r e a ls o i n v o l v e d in f o r e n s ic s e q u i p m e n t i f I r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tly. A n d a n o th e r a s p e c t t o i t w a s a n d a t t h e in i ti a l s t a g e t h e l in k w a s n o t s e e n w a s th a t a m o to r c a r d e a l e r p r o v id e d v e h ic l e s t o th e P h a h l a n e f a m il y a n d o t h e r p o lic e o ffi c e r s b a s ic a lly g r a t is . L a t e r o n t h e y w o u l d c l a i m i t w a s s p o n s o r s h i p s b u t u s u a l ly a s p o n s o r s h i p is f o r s o m e c o m m u n i ty w o r k o r s o m e th i n g l ik e th a t b u t these cars were on the Phahlane names and were insured by – by the P h a h l a n e ’s . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : During January of 2017 as a s e a r c h w a r r a n t is s u e d a n d e x e c u t e d a t th e h o m e o f G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . T h e p u r p o s e o f t h e s e a r c h w a r r a n t w a s to v e r i fy i n f o r m a t io n r e c e iv e d th a t i n d e e d a s o u n d s y s t e m h a d b e e n i n s ta ll e d i n M r P h a h l a n e ’s h o u s e a n d i t w a s f a c i li t a te d a n d p r o c e s s e d b y a s e r v ic e p r o v id e r. Page 55 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t. Wa s t h a t s e a r c h w a r r a n t t h e n th e s u b j e c t m a t te r o f a c iv il s u it ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : J a t h e – I a m g o i n g t o r e fe r t o it t h e s e t e r m s b e c a u s e t h e r e a n u m b e r o f s u c h w a r r a n ts t h a t c o m e a f t e r w a r d s . B u t t h is is t h e i n i ti a l s e a r c h w a r r a n t w h i c h w a s a s e a r c h a n d id e n ti fy a n d i n d e e d G e n e r a l P h a h la n e o p p o s e d t h e v a l i d i ty o f t h e s e a r c h warrant. N o w th e – I j u s t w a n t t o a d d th is . W h a t e v e r th e o u tc o m e – a n d t h e li t ig a ti o n is s ti ll o n g o i n g a n d w h a t e v e r t h e o u tc o m e o f t h e li ti g a t i o n i t w il l b e in a n y e v e n t b e m u t e b e c a u s e G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e 10 h i m s e l f a d m i tt e d t h a t a s y s te m is in s ta ll e d i n h i s h o u s e . So the p u r p o s e o f t h e s e a r c h w a r r a n t t o s e a r c h a n d id e n ti fy t h e s y s t e m w a s i n a n y c a s e n e g a t e d s u b s e q u e n tly b y G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. T h is – w o u l d y o u r e fe r to t h e te s ti m o n y t h e n o f o n e o f th e o r i g i n a l t a s k t e a m m e m b e r s th a t is th e t a s k t e a m t o i n v e s t ig a t e G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C e d r ic k N k a b i n d e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A l s o o n e o f t h e p e r s o n s o n th e 20 lis t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n th e t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n tr a n s c r ip t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is r i g h t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d in r e g a r d t o Page 56 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 him? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : S o G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e in 2 0 1 7 l a u n c h e d t h e c h a l le n g e o f t h e s e a r c h w a r r a n t . A l l w e l l a n d g o o d a r e s p o n s e fr o m I P I D ’s s id e w a s g i v e n a n d G e n e r a l P h a h la n e i d e n t i fi e d f r o m h is p e r s p e c t iv e a n u m b e r o f t e c h n i c a l is s u e s w i t h th e s e a r c h w a r r a n t a ll w e ll a n d g o o d . However the matter lay dormant for almost eighteen m o n th s a n d u p o n t h e r e m o v a l o f N k a b in d e fr o m t h e ta s k t e a m a n d u p o n h is r e s ig n a ti o n w e b e c a m e a w a r e t h a t G e n e r a l P h a h la n e ’s in i ti a ti n g a n d a tt e m p t in g r e - e n r o l th a t i n it i a l s e a r c h w a r r a n t c h a l le n g e b a s e d o n 10 e v i d e n c e t e s ti m o n y h e g o t f r o m N k a b i n d e . W i t h o u t g o i n g in t o t h e d e t a il t h e te s ti m o n y fr o m N k a b in d e o n t h e – h is a ff i d a v i t e n d e d w i th a p a r a g r a p h w h ic h i n e ff e c t w a s s a y i n g ; ‘ I a m a v a il a b l e t o m a k e s t a te m e n ts f o r a n y o t h e r p o l ic e o ffic e r s h a v in g p r o b l e m s w i th I P I D a n d I h a v e in s tr u c te d m y a t t o r n e y s t o m a k e m e a v a i l a b l e f o r i t . ’ A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u . W o u l d y o u go to paragraph 87 please? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I h a v e th a t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d j u s t t e l l t h e C h a ir w h a t y o u s a y in t h a t p a r a g r a p h p l e a s e ? 20 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: O k a y. S o I s a y I w a n t to p a u s e h e r e a n d g o b a c k to w h e n th e i n i ti a l i n v e s t ig a t i o n i n t o th e c a s e o f c o r r u p t i o n a n d m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g w a s i n i t ia t e d a g a in s t P h a h l a n e . O ’ S u l li v a n w a s t h e c o m p l a i n a n t a n d a ls o b e c a u s e o f h i s b a c k g r o u n d i n t h e m a t te r h e a n d a t t o r n e y S a r a h J a n e Tr e n t a c c o m p a n ie d I P I D i n v e s ti g a t o r s t o th e S a b l e H il ls E s t a t e t o p o i n t o u t w i t n e s s e s t h a t h e h a d i d e n t i fi e d to I P I D Page 57 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 in v e s t i g a t o r s . I t h i n k p e r h a p s y e s t e r d a y I h a d s a id Tr e n t w a s a s e c r e t a r y b u t I a m r e m in d e d n o w t h a t in d e e d s h e i s a n a t t o r n e y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : A n d t h e s e w i t n e s s e s la t e r g a v e s t a te m e n ts w h ic h i n – w h i c h in c l u d e d s t a te m e n ts r e l a t e d t o t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d p r o v id e d c l a r i ty o n t h e r a te o f d e v e l o p m e n t o f th e h o u s e a t S a b le H i ll a n d o th e r m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o w h o th e c o n t r a c t o r is for the house. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : A n d I t h in k t h e r e w e r e d i s c u s s io n s a n d a s ta t e m e n t f r o m t h e c o n tr a c t o r a ls o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : What you referred to as the S a b l e H il ls h o u s e i s t h a t t h e s a m e h o u s e i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h t h e s e a r c h w a r r a n t y o u r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r w a s g r a n te d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d e x e c u t e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right. So now we have a task t e a m i n v e s ti g a ti n g G e n e r a l P h a h la n e a n d w e h a v e t h e c o m p l a i n a n t . 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A s P a u l O ’ S u l li v a n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t o a n e x t e n t a t l e a s t h is a tt o r n e y M s Tr e n t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . Page 58 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. W h a t h a p p e n s th e n ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: So… A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u d e a l w i t h th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 8 8 i f y o u w o u ld r e f e r t o i t p l e a s e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. O k a y a s a r e s u l t o f t h e v i s i t t o S a b l e H i lls r e s i d e n ti a l e s t a t e a c o m p l a i n t w a s i n i t ia t e d w i th i n t h e p o lic e s e r v ic e s b y G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e th a t t h e r e w a s a s e c u r i t y b r e a c h a t h i s 10 h o u s e a n d t h a t h i s li f e is n o w in d a n g e r. H e t h e n r e q u e s te d a c ti n g d iv is io n a l c o m m i s s i o n e r to Magele in v e s t i g a t e t h e s e c u r i t y b r e a c h . for her e s ta b lis h a te a m to A t s o m e s ta g e i n h is c o n ta c t w it h G e n e r a l M a g e le G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a ls o c o n t a c t e d G e n e r a l J a n M a b u l a a n d h is t e a m f r o m N o r t h W e s t. N o w a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s c a r r ie d o u t b y C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e o n t h e a ll e g e d s e c u r it y b r e a c h . report has gone missing. A record of that I t h a s g o n e th r o u g h t h e h a n d s o f f o u r G e n e r a ls a n d t h e y c a n n o t p r o v id e it b e c a u s e a ll e g e d ly t h a t r e p o r t i s w h a t r e s u l t e d in G e n e r a l M a b u l a a n d t e a m g e t ti n g i n v o l v e d . H o w e v e r i t s u b s e q u e n t ly b e c a m e c l e a r th a t th e y h a d b e e n in v o lv e d p r i o r t o t h e c o m p le t io n o f t h e r e p o r t a n d s e c o n d l y t h a t t h e p e o p le w h o c o n d u c t e d t h e r e p o r t u p o n r e a l is in g t h a t I P I D w a s d o in g a n in v e s ti g a t io n c a m e t o 20 t h e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t t h e r e i s n o s e c u r i ty b r e a c h . I t w a s I P I D d o in g t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d th e y m a d e a r e p o r t t o t h a t e ff e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Yo u say that report went m is s i n g ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u ta lk o f a s e c o n d c h a r g e o f Page 59 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f ju s tic e t h a t w a s r e g is t e r e d a g a i n s t t h e M a b u l a Te a m a n d o th e r G e n e r a ls ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t i s a ll v e r y c o m p l ic a te d . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t e s s e n ti a l ly w h a t w e h a v e a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e is a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n i n to G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e , a n i n v e s t ig a ti o n n o w in t o o t h e r G e n e r a ls p a r ti c u l a r l y fr o m th e N o r t h W e s t a n d a c o u n t e r in v e s t i g a t io n f o r s e c u r i t y b r e a c h a n d t h e lik e a n d 10 t h e e x e c u ti o n o f th e s e a r c h w a r r a n t i n r e la t e d m a t t e r s . A m I c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : paragraph 90. A lr i g h t . Let us go then to W h a t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g th e c o u r s e o f t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n a n d c o u n t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: In e s s e n c e t h e M a b u la Te a m m o v e d t o G a u t e n g . S o fr o m N o r t h W e s t t h e y c a m e t o G a u t e n g a n d t h e y s e t u p in a h o te l i n , i n t h e C B D o f Pr e t o r i a o r j u s t o u ts id e th e C B D i n A r c a d i a a n d w e r e b a s ic a lly p e r m a n e n tly b a s e d t h e r e f o r I w o u l d s a y a l m o s t a y e a r a n d th e o n l y p u r p o s e fo r b e i n g t h e r e w a s d e a li n g w i t h O ’ S u lli v a n , Tr e n t 20 and IPID. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t a n d i f y o u w o u ld h a v e r e g a r d to p a r a g r a p h s 9 0 a n d t h e n 9 1 p l e a s e a n d t e l l t h e C h a ir o f w h a t y o u s a y th e r e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : O k a y. T h e ir, s o r r y 9 1 I s a y : “ T h e ir c o u n te r i n v e s ti g a ti o n r e s u l te d in a c a s e Page 60 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 b e i n g o p e n e d in t h e K a m e e ld r i f t C A S 1 2 /0 1 /2 0 1 7 a g a in s t O ’ S u ll iv a n a n d Tr e n t. The charges related t o t h e m w e r e a m o n g s t o t h e r s o f a c c o m p a n y in g I P I D O ff ic i a ls to P h a h l a n e ’s Sable H il ls home and i m p e r s o n a ti n g I P I D O ff ic ia ls .” A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o a s p a r t o f t h e e x e c u ti o n o f t h e s e a r c h w a r r a n t O ’ S u l li v a n a n d h i s a tt o r n e y a c c o m p a n i e d I P I D in v e s t i g a t o r s . Is th a t c o r r e c t o r n o t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : N o , n o , n o t h a t is n o t c o r r e c t. T h is is 10 p r i o r to a s e a r c h w a r r a n t e v e n b e i n g o b t a i n e d a n d p r i o r to B S – to a search warrant being executed. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: Ja, but is it correct that O ’ S u l liv a n a n d Tr e n t a c c o m p a n i e d I P I D in v e s t ig a t o r s t o t h e S a b l e H i ll s p r e m is e s o r e s t a t e r a t h e r, r a th e r t h a n th e [ in t e r v e n e s ] ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: But not during the search warrant e x e c u ti o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. I u n d e r s t a n d a n d o n th e b a s is , is i t o n th e b a s i s o f O ’ S u ll iv a n a n d Tr e n t a c c o m p a n y in g t h e I P I D O ff ic i a ls t h a t t h e r e w e r e c h a r g e d w i th i m p e r s o n a t i o n o f I P I D O ff ic ia ls ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . T h a t is – s o t h e y w e r e w i th I P I D O ff ic i a ls b u t th e y w e r e c h a r g e d f o r i m p e r s o n a ti n g I P I D O ff ic ia ls . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t a n d t h is w a s p a r t o f t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i n r e l a ti o n t o th e c o m p l a in t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M a d e b y O ’ S u ll iv a n . Page 61 of 136 Is that 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 r ig h t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Were O ’ S u l li v a n and Tr e n t arrested? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s i n d e e d th e y w e r e a r r e s t e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u m e n t i o n in p a r a g r a p h 9 2 a n in c i d e n t th a t o c c u r r e d d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f th a t a r r e s t . W h a t is t h a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : D u r i n g Tr e n t’s a r r e s t h e r m o b il e p h o n e w a s c o n fi s c a t e d b y t h e M a b u l a Te a m a n d b o o k e d i n f o r i n v e s ti g a t i o n i n 10 o r d e r t o s u p p o r t c h a r g e s th a t w e r e b e i n g f a b r ic a t e a g a i n s t t h e p a ir a n d la t e r o n t h e I P I D i n v e s t ig a t o r s t h a t w e r e a d d e d . o c c a s i o n s b o t h Tr e n t a n d O ’ S u ll iv a n w e r e S o a t d i ff e r e n t arrested and I t h in k O ’ S u l liv a n w a s a r r e s t e d t w ic e f o r t h e s a m e c a s e . O n e o f t h e in s t a n c e s I th i n k th e r e w e r e , t h e r e w a s b a il g i v e n a n d t h e b a i l h a d c o n d it i o n s a tt a c h e d t o i t a n d s o w h ic h d i d n o t n e c e s s i t a t e th e s e c o n d a r r e s t . S o m e u n d e r t a k in g s w e r e g iv e n d u r in g t h e fir s t a r r e s t . In any even O ’ S u l liv a n w a s a r r e s t e d t w i c e b y t h e M a b u l a Te a m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. J u s t to g o b a c k t o i m p e r s o n a ti o n . A s y o u u n d e r s t a n d i t w h a t w a s t h e fa c t u a l b a s is o f t h e c h a r g e t h a t th e y w e r e 20 i m p e r s o n a ti n g I P I D O ff ic i a l s ? W e r e th e y w e a r in g a n y u n i f o r m t h a t I P I D O ff ic i a ls w e a r ? W e r e th e y a ll e g e d t o h a v e s a i d t h e y w e r e I P I D O ff ic i a ls a s y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e p o s i ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : F r o m w h a t I r e m e m b e r C h a i r th e r e w e r e n o s p e c if ic s a t ta c h e d t o i t . M a i n l y i t w a s r e l a te d to t h e f a c t t h a t t h e y a c c o m p a n i e d I P I D O ff ic i a ls a n d th a t th e y h a d s p o k e n t o w i tn e s s e s w h o Page 62 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 provided statements. I w o u l d j u s t h a s t e n t o a d d h e r e t h a t a t a la t e r s t a g e t h e M a b u l a Te a m v is i t e d e v e r y o n e o f t h o s e w i t n e s s e s a n d g o t t h e m t o c h a n g e s ta t e m e n ts . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n e s o n th e b a s is o f w h i c h th e c h a r g e s h a d b e e n put together of impersonating? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No, th o s e who made s t a te m e n ts i m p l ic a t i n g G e n e r a l P h a h la n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , y e s o k a y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : In , in . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h e c o r r u p t r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d . CHAIRPERSON : Ja. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: And so on. T h e y, e v e r y o n e o f t h e m w e r e v is i te d . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: A n d a l t e r e d t h e ir s t a te m e n t t o s o m e e x t e n t o r a n o th e r . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 20 P e o p l e w h o h a d i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e y, t h e y h a d s e e n b a g s o f m o n e y b e i n g p a id o v e r t o t h e c o n t r a c to r t h a t is in c a s h . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e y c o u l d n o t r e m e m b e r w e l l? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : S u b s e q u e n tl y a f t e r t h e M a b u la Te a m . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: H a d v is i t e d t h e m . Page 63 of 136 S o t h a t is w h a t 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 r e s u l t e d i n t h e d e fe a ti n g t h e e n d s o f j u s t ic e . I t h in k th e s e c o n d o n e b e i n g o p e n e d u p a g a i n s t t h e M a b u l a Te a m . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o a g a i n s t th e b a c k g r o u n d o f t h e in f o r m a ti o n a n d t h e te le p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n tr a n s c r i p t ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u h a v e K h o m o t a lk i n g t o M a h l a n g u o n e o f t h e t a s k t e a m m e m b e r s i n v e s t ig a ti n g P h a h la n e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 A b o u t g iv in g e v i d e n c e a g a in s t o th e r m e m b e r s o f t h e ta s k t e a m a b o u t c o ll a t i n g o r o b ta i n i n g e v i d e n c e a n d t h e li k e . Th e p r e c is e w o r d i n g u s e d is “ i n s tr u c t iv e ” b u t w e c a n d e a l w i t h t h a t w h e n M r M a h l a n g u is c a ll e d i f h e c o m e s to t e s ti fy. So w hat y o u h a v e b a s ic a l ly is a n i n v e s t i g a t io n i n to G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a n d w h a t y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d to a s a c o u n t e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t is s u e w a s t a k e n to c o u r t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w a s d e a l t w i th b y H is L o r d s h ip M r J u s ti c e Tu c h te n ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e a n n e x u r e s t o y o u r o r i g in a l s t a te m e n t a n d t h e o r ig in a l a n n e x u r e s t h e r e a r e a t l e a s t p a r t o f t h e ju d g m e n t o f H i s L o r d s h ip J u s ti c e Tu c h t e n , b u t i t is in c o m p l e te . S o w e h a v e o b ta in e d a p r o p e r c o p y o f th e ju d g m e n t t o g e t h e r w i t h t h e o r d e r granted. It is E X H I B I T Y 2 C h a ir a n d i t h a s b e e n h a n d e d t o y o u r Page 64 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 R e g is tr a r. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m n o t g o in g t o g o i n t o i t in a n y d e ta il b u t ju s t t o h ig h li g h t c e r t a i n a s p e c ts o f t h e ju d g m e n t a n d o r d e r. If you would just look at page 1 of EXHIBIT Y2. Is th a t t h e m a t t e r w h e r e I P I D is th e fir s t a p p lic a n t, y o u a r e t h e s e c o n d a p p lic a n t , M a h l a n g u i s t h e th ir d a p p li c a n t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 And Binang another member of t h e Ta s k Te a m is th e fo u r t h a p p l ic a n t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: The r e s p o n d e n ts are L i e u t e n a n t G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a n d c e r t a i n o th e r p e r s o n s i n c l u d i n g M a jo r G e n e r a l M a b u la ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e r e th e y t o s o m e e x t e n t o r a n o t h e r in v o lv e d i n t h e c o u n te r i n v e s ti g a t i o n a g a in s t I P I D a n d o t h e r s o r m e m b e r s o f I P I D a n d O ’ S u ll iv a n a s w e ll ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , y e s . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e r e i s a r e l a te d m a t t e r. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: That obviously was joined in v o lv i n g o t h e r s a s w e ll ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. I f I c a n j u s t g iv e t h e c o n t e x t o f t h is . F o r t h e M a b u l a Te a m t o le a v e N o r t h W e s t a n d c o m e t o G a u t e n g Page 65 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 t h e y w o u l d n e e d t h e ir P r o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r ’s p e r m is s i o n . To c o m e a n d w o r k i n G a u t e n g t h e y w o u ld n e e d t h e Pr o v i n c i a l C o m m i s s io n e r o f G a u t e n g ’s p e r m is s io n a ls o a n d , a n d t h a t is w h y th e y a r e c i te d f o r a l lo w in g t h e m t o c o m e i n t o G a u t e n g t o w o r k i f s u p p o s e d ly a n o ff e n c e t h e y a r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g w h ic h o c c u r r e d in G a u t e n g a n d ju s t t o i n d ic a te t h a t M a h la n g u i s i n v e s t ig a t i n g P h a h l a n e a n d w a s p a r t o f t h e i n i t ia l t e a m w h il s t I w a s o n s u s p e n s i o n s t ill a n d th a t B in a n g w a s i n v e s ti g a ti n g G e n e r a l M a b u la a n d h is t e a m fr o m 2 0 11 a l r e a d y u n d e r I C D . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S 10 SC: So we have tw o IPID in v e s t i g a t io n s t h a t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F o r m t h e b a c k g r o u n d t o th is a p p lic a ti o n b e f o r e H i s L o r d s h i p M r J u s tic e Tu c h t e n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e y a r e a n I P I D i n v e s ti g a ti o n in t o G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e a n d a n I P I D i n v e s t i g a t io n i n t o G e n e r a l M a b u l a . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h a t i s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : G e n e r a l M a b u la a n d o t h e r s n o w c o m e t o G a u t e n g to c o n d u c t w h a t w e c a ll t h e c o u n t e r in v e s ti g a t io n ? 20 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A ll t h e s e e v e n ts a r e r e l e v a n t to t h e tr a n s c r ip t o f t h e t e le p h o n e c o n v e r s a t i o n t h a t y o u h a v e s p o k e n a b o u t a n d a b o u t w h i c h t h e r e m a y b e fu r t h e r e v i d e n c e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ye s a n d j u s t t o – I w o u l d j u s t li k e to a d d h e r e C h a ir is t h a t in d e e d i t i s t h e s a m e K h o m o w h o t o o k Page 66 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M a n d l a M a h l a n g u t o P o tc h e f s t r o o m t o m e e t w i t h M a b u la a n d N c u b e to , t o c o n c o c t a s to r y. S o i t is , s o t h e te a m is i n v e s t ig a ti n g th e s e p e o p le y e t K h o m o is t h e p e r s o n w h o t a k e s t h e m t o M a b u l a . Th e f a c t t h a t M a b u l a s e e s t h e m i s s in is t e r f o r t h e b i g g e r g a m e s a t p l a y h e r e in a d d it i o n t o t h is l it i g a t io n th a t i s g o i n g o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. C a n w e g o to p a g e 1 2 o f EXHIBIT Y2 please? A f t e r o b v i o u s l y h e a r i n g t h e p a r ti e s t h e J u d g e c o n c l u d e s i n p a r a g r a p h 2 2 a s b a c k g r o u n d t o t h e d e c l a r a t io n h e m a k e s : “ I n f o r m u l a t i n g t h e d e c l a r a ti o n I s h a l l i s s u e … ” 10 He says. “ I b e a r i n m i n d t h e i m p o r ta n t s p e c i a l p o s it io n I P I D a n d i ts i n v e s ti g a to r s o c c u p y i n o u r c o n s t it u ti o n a l architecture. powers. Members of SA PS have enormous T h e y c a n d e p r i v e p e o p le o f th e ir li b e r ty a n d i n tr u d e u p o n t h e ir p r iv a t e s p a c e s e i t h e r w i t h p r i o r o v e r s ig h t a t a ll o r w h e r e o v e r s ig h t is r e q u i r e d a s i n t h e c a s e s o f a r r e s t o r s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e u n d e r t h e a u th o r it y o f a w a r r a n t . N e c e s s a r ily w i t h o u t t h e s u b je c t o f t h e a c ti o n b e i n g h e a r d o n t h e 20 q u e s t io n . All members of SAPS can decline to e x e r c is e th o s e p o w e r s . A p o t e n t ia l f o r a b u s e is o b v i o u s . T h a t i s to m y m i n d t h e p r i m a r y r e a s o n w h y IPID e x is ts abuses. are to i n v e s t ig a t e c o m p la i n t s of such I b e a r i n mi n d to t h a t m e m b e r s o f S A P S c o n s ti t u ti o n a lly o b li g e d Page 67 of 136 to protect the 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 in d e p e n d e n c e a n d e ffe c tiv e n e s s o f I P I D . I t i s o f t h e u t m o s t i m p o r ta n c e t h a t m e m b e r s o f I P I D a n d I m a y s a y o f S A P S a s w e l l a r e a b l e to c a r r y o u t t h e ir d u t ie s v i g o r o u s ly.” A n d th e n th e r e is r e fe r e n c e t o t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t ju d g m e n t i n G le n i s te r. O v e r th e p a g e o n p a g e 1 3 th e J u d g e c o n t in u e s . “Of s p e c ia l concern to IPID members as d e m o n s t r a t e d b y th e a l l e g a ti o n s in t h e p r e s e n t c a s e is 10 th e r is k of what I might term a revenge in v e s t i g a t io n i . e . th e r is k t h a t a m e m b e r o f S A P S s u b j e c t to o r f e a r i n g t h a t a n I P I D in v e s ti g a ti o n m i g h t u s e th e p o w e r s v e s te d in t h a t S A P S m e m b e r t o c o n d u c t a c o u n t e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n a g a i n s t t h e v e r y I P I D m e m b e r i n v e s ti g a ti n g o r l ik e l y t o i n v e s ti g a te t h e S A P S m e m b e r. ” I f I m a y in t e r p o s e th e r e b e fo r e q u o t i n g fu r t h e r. T h a t i s p r e c i s e ly a s I understand what you say happened? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a r a g r a p h 2 5 r e a d s : 20 “It must seldom if ever be nec essary for a SAP S m e m b e r i n th e p o s i ti o n I h a d ju s t d e s c r i b e d to p a r t ic ip a t e in such a counter i n v e s t ig a ti o n . P e r h a p s t h e p a r t ic i p a ti o n in t h e i n v e s ti g a t io n o f s u c h a S A P S m e m b e r c a n b e j u s ti f ie d o n t h e b a s is o f v e r y s c a r c e s k il ls o r k n o w l e d g e w i th o u t w h i c h t h e Page 68 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 c o u n t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n c a n n o t b e c o n d u c t e d . I n s u c h a rare case the SAPS member in question would h a v e t o b e th e s u b j e c t o r w o u ld h a v e t o b e s u b j e c t t o a s tr ic t e r l e v e l o f o v e r s i g h t t o e n s u r e th a t th e I P I D i n v e s ti g a ti o n w a s n o t c o m p r o m is e d .” H e t h e n r e f e r s to c e r t a in - a s e c ti o n o f t h e I P I D Ac t s a n d s e e k s t o a p p ly t h a t t o t h e f a c ts b e f o r e h i m a n d i f w e c a n r e fe r p l e a s e to p a g e 2 1 w h ic h is a d r a f t c o u r t o r d e r. I t w a s a c o n s e n t o r d e r. Is th a t c o r r e c t ? I n o th e r w o r d s t h e p a r ti e s a g r e e d to t h e o r d e r. 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e f ir s t r e s p o n d e n t th e r e a g r e e d n o t t o t a k e p a r t i n t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t is th e c o u n t e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n to which you refer? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a fu r t h e r d r a ft o r d e r a p p e a r s at page 24 of EXHIBIT Y2. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , y e s . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h e r e a n u n d e r ta k i n g w a s g i v e n by Deputy National Commissioner Lieutenant -General Mfazi in the c a p a c i ty o f t h e Ac t in g N a ti o n a l C o m m is s io n e r t h a t c e r t a i n m e m b e r s w o u ld b e r e m o v e d fr o m t h e c o u n t e r i n v e s t i g a t io n a n d t h o s e p e r s o n s a r e M a jo r G e n e r a l M a b u l a , B r i g a d ie r N c u b e , L i e u te n a n t C o l o n e l D a w o o d , B r i g a d ie r K g o r a n e a n d C o l o n e l R e d d y. Yo u s e e t h a t o n p a g e 2 4 ? Page 69 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S in v e s t i g a t io n was no stopped SC: the So w h ils t outcome of the the counter l it i g a t io n the a p p lic a ti o n w a s t h a t p e r s o n s w h o m i g h t h a v e a n i n t e r e s t i n t h e o u t c o m e o f t h a t c o u n te r in v e s ti g a t io n w e r e r e m o v e d . A m I c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . C h a ir I j u s t w a n te d t o c h e c k . I d o n o t h a v e – my p a g e 2 5 is b l a n k . C H A I R P E R S O N : M in e i s b la n k t o o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 N o I a m j u s t t a lk i n g – I a m r e fe r r i n g t o p a g e 2 4 . Ar e y o u s a y i n g th a t – if y o u g o t o p a g e 2 6 t h a t i s t h e c o m p l e ti o n a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , p a r a g r a p h 4 o f th a t d r a f t o r d e r th e r e on page 24? So you can ignore page 25. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e u n d e r t a k i n g s w e r e m a d e b y t h e r e s p o n d e n ts – w e s h o u l d p l a c e o n r e c o r d – w it h o u t a n y c o n c e s s i o n o r a d m is s io n o f li a b i li ty b u t t h e n e t e ff e c t o f t h e a p p l ic a ti o n w a s t h e r e m o v a l o f c e r t a i n i n te r e s t e d p e r s o n s i n th e c o u n te r i n v e s ti g a ti o n . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: J u s t to a d d t h a t a k e y e l e m e n t i n s u m m i n g u p in a ju d g m e n t w a s t h a t I P I D h a s a p r o v is i o n i n i ts A c t , 20 S e c t io n 2 5 t h a t n o i n v e s ti g a to r m a y b e in v o l v e d in a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n in w h ic h h e h a s a n y i n t e r e s t a n d th a t S A P S d o e s n o t h a v e a s i m il a r provision and at some stage there was a – at some stage there was a d ir e c t iv e t h a t th e n e c e s s a r y, t h e n e c e s s a r y c h a n g e s to th e l e g is la t io n o r r e g u l a ti o n s o f S A P S n e e d s to b e d o n e b u t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: To Page 70 of 136 provide for a s i m i la r 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 [i n t e r v e n e s ] ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right. In paragraph 94 you c o n ti n u e y o u r e v i d e n c e in r e l a ti o n to t h e c o u n t e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h is w o u l d h a v e b e e n – I j u s t w a n t t o c h e c k i ts r e la t io n s h i p in t i m e t o t h e a p p l ic a t i o n t o c o u r t b e f o r e J u d g e Tu c h t e n . B e f o r e t h a t a p p l ic a t i o n t h e e v e n ts w h ic h o c c u r r e d in p a r a g r a p h 9 4 w o u l d h a v e o c c u r r e d . Is t h a t c o r r e c t o r n o t ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s e e w h a t y o u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 9 4 ? I f y o u c o u l d h a v e r e g a r d to i t p l e a s e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s I h a v e i t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n r e la t io n t o th e a p p li c a t io n b e f o r e J u d g e Tu c h t e n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: When did the events in p a r a g r a p h 9 4 o c c u r b e fo r e o r a f t e r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I t w a s b e f o r e th e Tu c h t e n j u d g m e n t. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o b e f o r e th e Tu c h t e n j u d g m e n t the events in paragraph 94 occur? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w e r e p r o b a b ly r e l e v a n t t o t h e n e e d I u n d e r s ta n d f o r t h e b r i n g i n g o f t h e a p p li c a t io n a t a l l ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Page 71 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t h a p p e n e d i n M a y 2 0 1 7 ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : S o d u r i n g M a y 2 0 1 7 B r ig a d i e r N c u b e o f t h e M a b u l a Te a m o n t h e i n s tr u c t io n o f A d v o c a t e M o l a tl h w a M a s h u g a charged IPID in v e s t i g a t o r s Mahlangu and Binang Just to for a l le g e d ly c o n tr a v e n in g th e I P I D A c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: remind th e C h a ir M a h l a n g u a n d B in a n g w e r e p a r t o f th e Ta s k Te a m s e t u p b y y o u r s e l f to in v e s t i g a t e P h a h la n e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t a n d w e r e c e r t a in o t h e r a c c u s e d o r a l l e g e d a c c u s e d jo in e d to t h a t p r o c e e d i n g s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s C h a ir. M a h l a n g u a n d B i n a n g w e r e t h e n j o i n e d t o O ’ S u ll iv a n a n d Tr e n t a s c o a c c u s e d . I think in the tr a n s c r ip t Mr M a h la n g u r e f e r s t o th is a n d i n d ic a te s t h a t h e w a s a c c u s e d n u m b e r 1 o r t w o o r n u m b e r t h r e e . H e is a c c u s e d 3 a t s o m e s t a g e . H e is r e fe r r i n g t o t h is w h e r e t h e y a r e a ll c h a r g e d t o g e t h e r - o n p a g e 1 5 6 3 . H e s a y s I w a s a c c u s e d 3 w h e n h e i s t a lk i n g a b o u t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 20 W h e n K h o m o i s a b o u t a d d i n g o th e r c o a c c u s e d o n . S o t h i s is w h a t M a h l a n g u is r e fe r r i n g t o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e i n c id e n t y o u r e f e r r e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h 9 5 b e f o r e y o u t e s ti fy t o t h a t i s t h a t o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e o r is t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n r e c e iv e d b y y o u ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : N o t h a t is i n fo r m a t i o n r e c e iv e d b y u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t i s th e in f o r m a t io n r e c e iv e d Page 72 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 by you? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h e i n f o r m a ti o n r e c e iv e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : [ In t e r v e n e s ] t h e s u b j e c t o f o u r o w n i n v e s t ig a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : J a . T h a t Tr e n t w a s a r r e s t e d a n d a f t e r b e e n d r i v e n a r o u n d f o r a w h o l e w a s t h e n i n te r r o g a te d a n d a s k e d f o r h e r p h o n e a n d t h e n ta k e n b a c k to g o a n d g e t t h e p h o n e a t th e o ff ic e w h e r e s h e w a s a r r e s t e d . T h i s w a s a t l e a s t a n h o u r a n d a h a l f la t e r a n d t h e p h o n e w a s th e n ta k e n . T h e p h o n e w a s n o t p a r t o f a s e a r c h w a r r a n t o r 10 r e l e v a n t t o a n y c h a r g e o f i m p e r s o n a t in g a n I P I D O ff ic e r w h ic h w e r e t h e charges at that stage. The phone was then – the chain of evidence of t h e p h o n e w a s l a s t. R u m o u r s fr o m w i t h i n t h e p o li c e i ts e lf w a s t h a t t h e p h o n e w a s ta k e n t o I s r a e l t o g e t i t d o w n l o a d e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : charges being brought against In paragraph 96 you talk of M a h la n g u and Binang who were m e m b e r s o f th e I P I D Ta s k Te a m ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h a t t h e s a m e o c c u r r e n c e t h a t y o u t a lk a b o u t in p a r a g r a p h 9 4 ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: S o w h a t is k e y i n 9 6 is w h e n N c u b e came ta k e to IPID o ffi c e s to the w a r n in g s ta t e m e n ts of M e s s i e u r s B i n a n g a n d M a h l a n g u I b e c a m e a w a r e t h a t h e is i n t h e b u il d in g . S o I th e n a p p r o a c h e d h i m a n d t o a s k h i m i s i t t r u e th a t y o u Page 73 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 a r e fr o m th e N o r t h W e s t a n d h e s a id y e s h e is f r o m t h e N o r th W e s t . S o I a s k e d h i m h o w i s i t th a t y o u c a m e h e r e t o G a u t e n g t o c a r r y o u t a n in v e s t i g a t io n a g a i n s t m y o ffi c e r s a n d I i n d i c a t e d t o h i m t h a t h e is , is h e a w a r e th a t h e is a s u s p e c t a n d th a t p a r t o f w h a t h e is d o i n g h e i s d e f e a t i n g a g a i n s t – is a n a t t e m p t t o d e f e a t t h e e n d s o f j u s ti c e . H e is a s u s p e c t i n t h a t in v e s ti g a t io n . H e t h e n d e c i d e d to c h a r g e m e fo r in ti m i d a ti o n b e c a u s e I e n q u ir e d h o w h e c a m e fr o m N o r th W e s t t o b e f u n c t i o n a l i n G a u t e n g . I a m n o t – n o t s u r e w h e r e t h a t c a s e is . I g a v e a w a r n in g s t a t e m e n t t o t h e in v e s ti g a t o r a n d I a m s u r e i t w a s t h o r o u g h ly 10 in v e s t i g a t e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r e f e r r e d e a r l ie r i n y o u r e v i d e n c e t o a n o c c u r r e n c e t h a t is o r w a s n o t u n c o m m o n i n r e l a ti o n t o p e o p l e in y o u r p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u w o u l d b e c h a r g e d a n d c h a r g e d a g a i n and charged again? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : After the charges and the r e n d i ti o n s a g a h o w m a n y ti m e s a f te r th a t w e r e y o u e v e r c h a r g e d w i t h a n y o ff e n c e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 20 W e l l c o m p la in ts w e r e la i d b u t it n e v e r, it n e v e r w e n t t o c o u r t j a . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It never went to court. Even on the – w e k n o w t h a t d o c u m e n t s w e r e p r e p a r e d t o m a k e t h e w h o l e c a s e w h ic h s t a r t e d o ff a s a s e c u r i ty b r e a c h i n to r a c k e t e e r i n g a n d , a n d t h a t is w h a t K h o m o w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t “ h e is g o i n g d o w n ” a n d a ll o f th a t . I t is a b o u t Page 74 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 t h e p l a n , th e r u s e , th e c o n c o c ti o n b u t i t n e v e r c o m e s to fr u i t io n p e r h a p s a s a r e s u l t o f t h e Tu c h t e n ju d g m e n t a n d t h a t n o o th e r p r o s e c u t o r w o u ld w a n t to t o u c h s o m e t h i n g s o o b n o x i o u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. CHAIRPERSON : O n e s e c o n d M r P r e to r i u s . Th a n k y o u . Yo u m a y proceed. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : On what basis were charges c o n te m p l a t e d i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r s e l f o f r a c k e te e r in g ? D o y o u k n o w ? 10 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: O ff th e to p o f m y h e a d I c a n n o t remember what it was about. A t o n e s t a g e I w a s – C e d r ic N k a b in d e b r o u g h t a m e m b e r w h o id e n ti fi e d h i m s e l f fr o m C r i m e I n t e l li g e n c e a n d s a i d h e w a s a w a r e o f a c o n v e r s a t io n ta k i n g p l a c e t o c h a r g e m e a n d i t w a s t h e M a b u la Te a m a n d i n p a r ti c u l a r N c u b e t a l k i n g t o a p r o s e c u t o r i n o r d e r t o o b ta in a n a r r e s t w a r r a n t a n d th e C r i m e In t e l li g e n c e p e r s o n – y o u k n o w – a s k e d m e is t h e r e a n y w a y I c a n h e l p w i th t h is . S o t h e r e w a s a n a r r e s t w a r r a n t b e in g p r e p a r e d a n d I s a id to th e C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e g u y w h e n I a m i n v e s ti g a ti n g c o r r u p ti o n t h e r e i s n o w a y I c a n c o m e t o a n y a g r e e m e n t o r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o r r e c o n c i li a ti o n . They a r e s u s p e c ts o f I P I D a n d s o i t c a n n o t h a p p e n . S o th e y m u s t d o w h a t 20 they want. M y s u s p ic i o n i t m i g h t h a v e b e e n t o d o w i t h N k a b i n d e ’s d o u b l e g a m e h e h a d b e e n p l a y i n g a n d b a s ic a ll y in s h o r t t h e a l l e g a ti o n s w e r e t h a t t h r e e w a s a c o n s p ir a c y t o u n d e r mi n e t h e s e c u r i ty c l u s t e r b y t a r g e ti n g S A P S O ff i c ia ls . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t ’s ju s t s u m m a r is e t h e n a t a g e n e r a l l e v e l, a r is i n g o u t o f t h e r e n d i ti o n s e r i e s o f e v e n ts . Page 75 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u w e r e c h a r g e d . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u w e r e a ls o s u s p e n d e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e c h a r g e s c a m e t o n o u g h t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r e tu r n e d a f te r s u s p e n s i o n a n d y o u c o n ti n u e d in v e s t i g a t io n s o r I P I D u n d e r y o u r w a tc h c o n t in u e d 10 in v e s t i g a t io n s in t o s e n io r p o l ic e o ff ic ia ls ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F u r t h e r c h a r g e s b o t h in r e l a ti o n t o t h e c o u n te r in v e s ti g a t io n a n d o t h e r m a tt e r s w e r e c o n t e m p l a t e d a t le a s t , o r p r e p a r e d a g a i n s t y o u ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: T h a t’s c o r r e c t y e s . Just to add on s o m e o c c a s i o n t h e o ff ic ia l w h o t o o k o v e r f r o m G e n e r a l S i b iy a i n G a u t e n g , P r in c e M o k e te d i, o n a n I n t e ll ig e n c e R e p o r t l a i d a c h a r g e o f tr e a s o n a g a i n s t m y s e l f, G e n e r a l S ib i y a , P a u l O ’ S u ll iv a n a n d I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h o e ls e , a n d e v e n t u a ll y M o k a te d i a d m i t te d t o Mr S e s o k o 20 t h a t t h e y w e r e n o t a f t e r m e , th e y, P a g h l a n e h a d a b o n e t o p i c k w it h O ’ S u l liv a n a n d t h a t w a s t h e b a s i s o f th a t a n d h e w a s b a s ic a l ly u n d e r t h e in s t r u c t i o n s o f N t l e m e z a , s o t h a t w a s i m m e d i a t e ly u p o n m y r e t u r n , it w o u ld h a v e b e e n D e c e m b e r o r J a n u a r y. S o i t ’s b e e n q u i t e r e l e n t l e s s a n d i t ’s b e e n c o n t in u i n g a n d th e p lo t s a n d t h e s c h e m e s a n d t h e c o n s p ir a c i e s c o n t in u e d n o n - s t o p . Page 76 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 CHAIRPERSON : A n d d o y o u t h i n k t h e m o ti v e o r a i m w a s to d r i v e y o u o u t o f I P I D o r a t l e a s t to d e te r y o u fr o m a n y d e t e r m i n a t io n y o u m i g h t h a v e h a d to f ig h t c o r r u p ti o n w i th t h e v ig o u r t h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e d is p la y e d b e fo r e , t o tr y a n d s l o w y o u d o w n a n d s o f t e n y o u . Do you t h i n k i t ’s e it h e r o f t h e tw o t h a t t h e y m ig h t h a v e w a n t e d to a c h ie v e w i t h y o u i n p a r ti c u l a r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : C h a ir I th in k i t i n c l u d e s w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d b u t i t a ls o i n c lu d e s s p e n d i n g r e s o u r c e s o n h a r a s s m e n t a n d d is r u p ti o n o f I P I D ’s a c ti v i ty, i t i s t h e s a m e t a c t ic t h a t t h e y u s e w h e n 10 t h e y ’r e d e a li n g w i th c r i m in a l s y n d ic a t e s , if t h e y ’r e d o in g t h e ir w o r k p r o p e r ly t h e y w il l d i s r u p t a n d t h e y w o u ld t i e th e m u p in l it i g a t io n a n d a ll o f t h a t . N o w . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Is th a t t o k e e p y o u a w a y fr o m y o u r w o r k ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : have done has delayed us. Fr o m y o u r w o r k a n d a l l o f w h a t th e y To a d d i n s u l t t o in j u r y t h e y h a d w i ll in g c o l l a b o r a to r s w i th in th e Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty w h o a s s is t e d in th is p r o c e s s b u t S A P S a n d I j u s t a s k f o r o u r in d u l g e n c e fo r m e t o ju s t d i v e r t a b it , S A P S r u n s o n a p a tr o n a g e s y s t e m , I d o f a v o u r s fo r m y s e n i o r, I g e t p r o m o t e d , p r o m o t i o n s , l ik e w h a t y o u s e e w i t h G o o m o a n d M a h l a n g u 20 b u t a l s o w i th t h e o t h e r M a h l a n g u a n d M r K h u b a , w h a t y o u s e e is t h e y h a d t h e w i ll i n g n e s s a n d p o w e r a n d p r a c ti c e a n d c u s t o m to o ff e r o u t j o b s a s p a tr o n a g e , a n d th a t ’s h o w t h e p o l ic e s y s te m w o r k s , it w o r k s o n p a tr o n a g e a n d p e o p l e b e i n g p r o m o t e d a n d a p p o i n t e d t o c a r r y o u t t a s k s o n b e h a l f o f s e n i o r s . A n d th a t ’s h o w i t ’s b e e n r u n n i n g . Yo u t a k e t h a t a n d i ts r e l a te d t o – s o p r o m o ti o n s w i th in t h e fo r e n s ic s l a b a r e a w i ll b e Page 77 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 related to a s s is ti n g and fa c i li t a t i n g f u r th e r corruption and mal - a d m i n is tr a t i o n a n d i n th e p r o c e s s e v e r y b o d y h a s a n i n t e r e s t in p r o t e c t in g t h e s e n i o r s b e c a u s e i t ’s i n d e e d it ’s t h e s e n i o r s t h a t p u t t h e m t h e r e , t h e y m i g h t e v e n f e e l u n d e r o b l i g a t io n t o p r o t e c t . Th e y a ls o h a v e a p r o c e s s w h e r e s o m e t i m e s p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n th e s a m e c o l le g e t o g e th e r o r c o m e fr o m th e s a m e v i ll a g e o r a t t h e s a m e s t a ti o n a n d th e y m i g h t h a v e b e e n i n p a tr o l s t o g e t h e r, t h e y mi g h t h a v e s u r v iv e d s h o o t o u t s t o g e t h e r, s o b o n d s a r e fo r m e d b e t w e e n t h e m o n v a r i o u s r e a s o n s , in c l u d i n g p a tr o n a g e a n d u n l e s s y o u h a v e a s t r o n g h a n d a b o u t g o o d 10 g o v e r n a n c e a n d r e s p e c t f o r th e r u l e o f l a w a n d t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n y o u w i ll n e v e r g e t th e S A P S r i g h t a n d i t’s – a n d i t ’s a s y s t e m th a t ’s n o t b e i n g c h a l le n g e d , i t ’s a s y s t e m o n i ts o w n a n d i t a ffe c t s a ll a s p e c ts o f o u r li fe . C r i m i n a l s y n d ic a t e s a n d c o r r u p ti o n s y n d i c a te s , n o t t h a t t h e r e ’s a d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n t h e t w o , r e q u ir e g o o d s e n i o r p o l ic e m e n n o t t o in v e s t i g a t e p a s t a c ts o f c o r r u p t i o n s , c u r r e n t o n e s b e i n g p e r m i t te d a n d o n e s i n t h e f u t u r e , t h a t’s h o w i t w o r k s , b e c a u s e t h e in t e n t i o n o f a c o r r u p ti o n s y n d ic a t e i s t o s t e a l m o n e y, a n d i n t h e i n s ta n c e I ’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t a n d if i t ’s r e q u e s t e d I c a n s h o w a l it a n y o f c a s e s w h e r e b il li o n s 20 h a v e b e e n s to l e n . Th e b e s t p e r s o n t o d e a l w i th t h a t w o u l d b e Mr S o k o t o o u tl in e s t e p b y s t e p a ll th e t h e f t a n d h o w i t w o r k s . T h e p o i n t I’ m m a k in g is w e w i ll h a v e t h i s C o m m i s s i o n , Yo u r L o r d s h ip w il l m a k e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s a n d t h e y w i ll b e c a r r i e d o u t , b u t t h e p a tr o n a g e s y s t e m w it h in t h e p o lic e s e r v ic e w i ll s t a y u n c h a n g e d , a n d p o li t ic i a n s w il l r e q u ir e c o m p l i a n t s e n i o r p o l ic e o ffi c e r s , w i ll c o m e a n d Page 78 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 g o a n d t h e y w i ll u s e th e p o l ic e s e r v ic e f o r t h e ir o w n i n t e r e s ts , a n d t h a t ’s w h a t w i ll h a p p e n a n d t h a t’s o u r e x p e r i e n c e w h e r e v e r y o ft e n w e i m m e d i a t e ly a t l o g g e r h e a d s w i t h t h e M i n i s t e r o f P o li c e , w h o e v e r i t i s , r e g a r d le s s o f p e r s o n a li ty, b e c a u s e t h e M i n is te r o f P o l ic e i s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r th e P o lic e , t h e p o l ic e m u s t s h in e , i t ’s u n d e r t h e ir e x e c u ti v e a u th o r i ty a n d w a tc h a n d e v e r y t i m e t h e p o l ic e s h in e a n d th e i r i m a g e h a s b e e n p o li s h e d u p p o p s a c a s e fr o m I P I D w h ic h m i g h t b e c o m e a n ir r i t a n t a n d t h e r e ’s a n i n s ti t u ti o n a l t e n s io n t h e r e , b u t i t ’s p r e c i s e ly b e c a u s e t h e p r a c ti c e o f p a tr o n a g e a n d c o r r u p t io n w i th i n S A P S s o i f w e h a v e t o g o 10 b a c k h o w f a r b a c k d o w e g o , f o r e x a m p l e t h e r e m o v a l o f D r a m a t a n d th e in s t a l li n g o f N k l e m e z a , N k l e m e z a i m m e d ia t e ly a p p o in t s o t h e r p o lic e o ffic e r s , t h e y g e t r id o f S ib iy a , th e y g e t r id o f B o o y s e n a n d t h e y p u t o th e r p e o p le i n p l a c e , a n d t h e y h a v e a p p o in t e d p e o p l e , p e o p l e g o t tr a n s fe r r e d o u t o f D P C I i n to th e g r e a t e r S A P S a n d n e w p e o p l e a r e in s t a l l e d . CHAIRPERSON : A n d o f c o u r s e w a s i t i n t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t w a s r e c o r d i n g i t y e s t e r d a y w h e r e t h e r e w a s t a lk o f i f y o u d o th is w e w i ll r e m e m b e r y o u o r w e w o n ’ t f o r g e t y o u , o r s o a n d s o w o n ’ t fo r g e t y o u , s o t h a t ’s p a r t o f w h a t y o u ’r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : E x a c t ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a n d if y o u w a n t t o b e r e m e m b e r e d y o u n e e d t o b e p l ia n t , y o u n e e d to k e e p t h a t p e r s o n h a p p y s o t h e y c a n r e m e m b e r y o u . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ex a c t ly C h a ir, a n d t h e f o r c e s th a t s h o u l d b e fi g h ti n g a g a i n s t th is p a t r o n a g e s y s te m a r e b e i n g s a b o t a g e d p o li t ic a l ly, w e ’v e s e e n i t i n ( i n d is ti n c t) y o u w i ll f i n d o t h e r o c c a s i o n s , i f Page 79 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 y o u l o o k a t i t , a n d b y p o li c e o ffi c e r s r e s is t i n g I P I D , s a b o ta g in g c o u n t e r in v e s t i g a t io n s , o r a s r e f e r r e d t o i n o n e o f t h e j u d g m e n ts r e v e n g e in v e s t i g a t io n s , i n e s s e n c e w e m i g h t t a k e i t a s p e r s o n a l i s s u e s b e c a u s e w e a r e p e r s o n a ll y a ff e c t e d , w e g e t fa ls e l y c h a r g e d a n d w e g o th r o u g h o u r o w n p a i n a n d d i s a d v a n ta g e , b u t fo r t h e p e o p l e c a r r y i n g i t o u t i t ’s a c t u a ll y s u r v iv a l a n d u n ti l – a n d it h a s n ’t s ta r t e d n o w, S A P S is t h e o l d e s t o r g a n is a ti o n in S o u t h A fr ic a f r o m t h e Ac t o f U n i o n in v a r io u s f o r m s a n d e v o l u ti o n s it s t a r t e d . T h e i d e a o f b e i n g i n v e s ti g a te d t h e y d o n ’ t l ik e , n u m b e r o n e , t h e 10 id e a o f a n y o v e r s i g h t o v e r th e m t h e y d o n ’ t lik e . CHAIRPERSON : And being arrested. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : T h e y d o n ’t l ik e t h a t, a n d th e is s u e o f r e s is t a n c e t o c h a n g e b e c a u s e o f o l d c u lt u r e s a n d tr a d i t io n s s o i t’s in s t in c tiv e n o t t o d o it a n d t h e C o n s t i tu t i o n o f D e m o c r a c y i s r e l a ti v e ly n e w, n o ti o n s o f C o n s t it u ti o n a l in d e p e n d e n c e lik e in I P I D , S A P S i s n o t a c c u s t o m e d to i t y e t , t h e y h a v e n o t b e e n r e - o r i e n ta t e d t o w a r d s c o n s ti t u ti o n a li s m a n d r e s p e c t f o r t h e r u l e o f l a w s o t h a t is a n in s t i tu t io n a l a n d a t ti t u d e p r o b l e m w h i c h f u r t h e r f e e d s i n t o t h e p a tr o n a g e a n d c o r r u p ti o n . 20 CHAIRPERSON : A n d o b v io u s ly i f y o u h a v e t h a t c u l tu r e in a n y o r g a n i s a t io n b u t t a lk i n g a b o u t S A P S n o w i f th a t is t h e p o s it i o n t h e n i t ’s v e r y e a s y fo r t h o s e m e m b e r s o f S A P S w h o a r e q u i te h a p p y t o b e p li a n t t o t h e s e n io r s to b e a c t u a ll y p li a n t t o o u ts i d e r s a s w e l l . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o p r i v a t e c o m p a n ie s , i n d iv id u a l s , y o u k n o w c r i m i n a l Page 80 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 s y n d i c a t e s b e c a u s e t h e r e w o u ld b e – I m e a n t h e s e n i o r s w o u l d o ff e r t h e m e i th e r m o n e y t h a t t h e y m ig h t b e g e tt i n g i ll e g a ll y o r o ff e r t h e m p o s i ti o n s t h a t w i ll g i v e t h e m m o n e y, h i g h p o s i ti o n s , s o p e o p l e o u ts id e c a n g iv e t h e m m o n e y a n d th e n t h e y w o u l d b e h a p p y, t h a t ’s w h y th e y w o u ld b e w a n t i n g if t h e y s e e t h e p o s i t io n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th e r e ’s a n o t h e r s i d e w h ic h i s e v e n w o r s e , s o f o r t h e g o o d p o l ic e o ff ic e r s , t h e o n e s th a t w o r k d i li g e n t ly, t h a t g e t t h e w o r k d o n e , th e y c o m e t o w o r k e v e r y d a y a n d g o a b o u t t h e ir b u s i n e s s , w h o a r e n o t in i t f o r b e in g c o m p l i a n t o f 10 c o r r u p ti o n , th e y h a v e t o s t a r t a t s o m e s ta g e t h i n k i n g w h a t i s i t a l l f o r, t h is p e r s o n d o e s n ’ t d o h a lf a s m u c h w o r k a s m e , h a s h a l f t h e q u a li fi c a t io n s b u t h e i s p r o m o te d a b o v e m e b e c a u s e th e y a r e c l o s e t o colonel or brigadier so and so. W h a t i t d o e s i t t h e n d e m o r a l is e s th e g o o d p e o p l e w h o a r e a c t u a ll y h o l d i n g t h e s h ip a f lo a t a n d t h e r e s u l t is n o t o n ly y o u w i ll g e t t h e m e i t h e r le a v in g t h e s e r v i c e o r t h in k i n g w h y s h o u l d I w o r k h a r d , t h e r e ’s n o t h in g f o r m e , I s e e n o b e n e f i t a n d t h e n t h e y s ta r t t h i n k i n g i n t e r m s o f t h e i r o w n m a t e r i a l s i t u a t io n s , a n d m o r e o f t h e m a r e w o n o v e r to t h e c r o o k e d s i d e , a n d t h e is s u e o f r e c r u i ti n g p e o p l e a s p a r t o f th e c r o o k e d s y s te m a s i n t h e t w o r e c o r d in g s t h a t ’s 20 o n g o i n g , i t ’s g o in g o n a ll t h e t i m e , t h is i s l a te in t h e P a g h la n e in v e s t i g a t io n , a n d y e t M r G o o m a s is fi t t o d o i t , s t a r tl in g ly h e s a y s d o n ’ t g o i n d e te c tiv e s y o u w i ll e n d u p c h a s i n g c r i mi n a l s , y o u d o n ’t w a n t t o b e c h a s i n g c r i m in a ls , I’ m n o t s u r e w h a t o t h e r w o r k p o li c e is s u p p o s e d to d o a n d w h a t d o e s h e i m p ly th a t .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t ’s t h e ir c o r e f u n c ti o n . Page 81 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : A b s o l u te l y. S o w h a t i s h e i n t e n d in g M a h l a n g u to d o a w a y fr o m c h a s in g c r i m in a l s . I suppose he should explain. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. Mr P r e to r i u s I ju s t w a n t u s to t a k e fi v e m i n u t e s b r e a k , w e w il l a d j o u r n f o r fiv e m i n u t e s , a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e in fi v e m i n u t e s , t w e n ty fi v e t o . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y y o u m a y p r o c e e d M r P r e t o r iu s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. in v e s t i g a t io n w h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t ? The counter Yo u d e a l w i th t h a t i n paragraph 97. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Ja. So the – the state advocate in the m a t t e r w a s A d v o c a t e M a s h u g a w h o a ls o h a s s o m e li n k s t o t h e N o r th W e s t t e a m . T h e ir c a s e w a s r e m a n d e d s e v e r a l t i m e s fo r i n v e s t ig a ti o n . U n t il O c t o b e r 2 0 0 7 w h e n th e … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 2 0 1 7 ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : 2 0 1 7 m y a p o l o g ie s . W h e n t h e a c c u s e d 20 m a d e a n a p p li c a t io n t h a t t h e m a t t e r b e s t r u c k o ff t h e r o l e i n t e r m s o f S e c t io n 3 4 2 A o f Th e C r i m i n a l P r o c e d u r e A c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t d e a l s w it h u n d u e d e l a y s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Wa s i t i n f a c t s tr u c k o ff t h e r o l e b y th e r e l e v a n t m a g is tr a te ? Page 82 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A n d a p p a r e n t ly c o u l d o n ly b e r e e n r o ll e d w i t h a w r i t te n i n s tr u c ti o n o f t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P r i n s lo o a p p l ic a ti o n . B r i e fly te ll t h e c o u r t o f t h e J u d g e P r in s l o o a p p li c a t io n o r th e a p p lic a ti o n h e a r d b y J u d g e Pr in s l o o a n d I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h a t a p p lic a ti o n p r e c e d e d th e a p p li c a t io n t h a t y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d t o b e f o r e J u d g e 10 Tu c h t e n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I think so. So the order by the m a g i s tr a t e t o s tr ik e t h e c a s e o ff th e r o l e w a s – a n d th a t t h e in v e s t i g a t io n b e s t o p p e d u n l e s s t h e r e is a w r i t te n i n s tr u c t io n fr o m t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s w a s n o t a d h e r e d t o b y th e Mabula team. T h e y c o n ti n u e d w i th th e i r c o u n te r in v e s t i g a t io n . And t h e n s h o r tl y a f t e r t h i s B r i g a d ie r N c u b a t o o k a – a n o t h e r w a r n in g s t a te m e n t . T h is ti m e a g a i n s t M r M a n ts h a R a p h e s u a n d h e a ls o t h r e a t e n e d t o a r r e s t o t h e r m e m b e r s o f t h e t a s k t e a m . I n h is i n t e r v i e w w i t h R a p h e s u h e h a d – h e b a s ic a lly d r o p p e d a r e m a r k d u r i n g t h e 20 process. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : That you say in paragraph 99 t h a t h e w o u ld a r r e s t o th e r m e m b e r s o f th e t a s k t e a m i n c lu d i n g y o u r s e l f ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t j a . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e th e n o f a p p r o a c h in g th e h i g h c o u r t ? Page 83 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : W e l l th e h i g h c o u r t w a s t o … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h i s is t h e J u d g e P r i n s l o o a p p lic a ti o n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. It – it was to b a s ic a lly o b t a i n a n i n te r d ic t a g a i n s t t h e M a b u l a t e a m f r o m c o n ti n u i n g w i t h t h e h a r a s s m e n t a n d d i s r u p ti o n o f I P I D ’s w o r k . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e o u tc o m e o f th e – i t is i n t h e b u n d le b u t I w a n t t o tr y a n d a v o i d r e f e r r in g t o it i n a n y d e t a i l b u t w e c a n r e f e r t o i t? 10 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: O k a y t h a n k s . S o u l ti m a t e ly th e r e w a s a n o r d e r o f c o u r t b y J u d g e P r i n s l o o w h ic h w a s a r e s u l t o f a n u n d e r t a k i n g th a t th e c o u n t e r in v e s ti g a t io n s w o u ld n o t c o n t i n u e . The e x a c t p r o v is i o n s w o u l d b e s o m e w h e r e i n th e b u n d l e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t w a s a n a p p li c a t io n b r o u g h t b y t h e H e l e n S u z m a n Fo u n d a t io n , is t h a t r i g h t o r i s t h a t a d i ff e r e n t a p p lic a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I t h i n k th e a p p li c a t io n w a s b r o u g h t b y IPID. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t w e w i ll s e e i f w e c a n fi n d 20 a r e f e r e n c e t o th a t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e r e i s a n o th e r ju d g m e n t i n t h e b u n d l e b y J u d g e P r i n s l o o w h i c h w e w i ll n o t d e a l w it h n o w. I f y o u lo o k p l e a s e a t p a g e 2 4 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t – o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k s C h a ir. Page 84 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Fr o m p a g e 2 4 to p a g e 2 7 y o u d e a l w i t h c i r c u ms t a n c e s g iv in g r i s e t o a n d t h e b r in g in g o f t h e a p p lic a ti o n i n t h e N o r th G a u t e n g h i g h c o u r t w h i c h w a s h e a r d b y H is L o r d s h ip M r J u s ti c e Tu c h te n . Yo u h a v e d e a lt w i t h th a t . I f y o u c o u ld a s s is t t h e c o u r t – o r a s s i s t th e C h a ir r a t h e r b y l o o k i n g a t p a r a g r a p h s 1 0 1 to 11 8 to s e e i f t h e r e is a n y t h in g f u r t h e r t h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y in r e l a ti o n t o t h o s e e v e n t s a b o u t w h ic h y o u h a v e t e s t i fi e d t h i s m o r n i n g ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Ye s a k e y e le m e n t in t h e – t h e w h o l e li ti g a t i o n w i th t h e M a b u l a te a m is t h a t t h e t h e n a c t i n g c o m m is s i o n e r 10 G e n e r a l M o t h i b a w a s w i lli n g t o a b id e b y th e c o u r t’s d e c i s i o n . But w h il s t h e w a s w il li n g to a b i d e M a b u la w h o h a d b e e n a c ti v a t e d b y G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e w a s w r it i n g a ffi d a v i ts o p p o s i n g it a n d h is m a in th r u s t o f h is r e a s o n i n g w a s th a t I P I D i s i n v e s ti g a t in g c o l d c a s e s . A n d th e c o l d c a s e s h e is a c tu a l ly r e fe r r i n g t o h e r e i n v o l v e d t o r t u r e a n d in c l u d i n g t h e d e a t h o f o n e s u s p e c t . A n d h e r e fe r s to t h e m f li p p a n tl y a s c o l d c a s e s a s if s o m e h o w b e c a u s e a c a s e is c o ld n o - o n e c a n l i g h t a fi r e u n d e r i t . A n d d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d w e a l s o h a d h is – h e b e c o m e s in c r e a s i n g ly d e s p e r a te b e c a u s e h e is a ls o p l a c e d o n t h e s c e n e o f o n e o f t h e t o r t u r e s a n d d e a th o f a d e c e a s e d a n d I a m h e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 4 a n d th e r e is a r e c o r d in g 20 r e l a t e d t o th a t . I n f a c t fo r t h e r e c o r d t h i s r e c o r d i n g is m a d e l o n g b e f o r e I a m a p p o i n te d a t I P I D I t h in k i t is m a d e i n 2 0 1 3 . Th a t is t h e r e c o r d i n g t h a t in i ti a l ly w e n t m i s s in g a f te r h a v i n g b e e n g iv e n to t h e – p r i o r t o m y s u s p e n s i o n a n d a f t e r h a v i n g b e e n g i v e n t o t h e P r o v i n c ia l H e a d o f N o r th W e s t Pr o v i n c e to i n v e s t ig a t e t h e I P I D h e a d w h o s u b s e q u e n tl y l e f t t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d w e n t in t o S A P S . Page 85 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. J u s t b e f o r e y o u g o o n i t s e e m s t h a t a m o n g s t t h e c a s e s t h a t I P I D w a s i n v e s t ig a ti n g a g a i n s t amongst others General Mabula in the North West. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : C o n c e r n e d to r t u r e a n d a d e a t h and detention? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e s e a r e t h e c a s e s th a t were described as “cold cases”? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : That is the one aspect. The p a r a g r a p h 1 0 6 a n d 1 0 5 y o u r e f e r t o a n o r d e r o f c o u r t b y P r i n s l o o J , is t h a t n o t p e r h a p s Tu c h t e n J t h a t s h o u l d b e r e fe r r e d t o t h e r e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : N o i t i s P r i n s lo o . Pr in s l o o . Tu c h t e n comes … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L a t e r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Pr in s l o o is i n N o v e m b e r a n d Tu c h t e n is in J u n e 2 0 1 8 . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o … 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : S o Tu c h t e n … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t t h e – th e u n d e r t a k i n g s n o t t o c o n ti n u e w it h t h e in v e s t ig a ti o n b y t h o s e p e o p l e w e r e n o t o b e y e d w h ic h r e s u l t e d i n f u r t h e r a p p lic a ti o n b e in g n e c e s s a r y a n d t h a t c a m e b e fo r e P r i n s lo o J . Is t h a t – a m I u n d e r s ta n d i n g y o u c o r r e c t ly ? Page 86 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h e o t h e r w a y a r o u n d . It s t a r t e d w it h P r i n s lo o J fir s t a s a n u r g e n t a p p li c a t io n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a i d P r i n s l o o J 1 8 . Let us g e t t h e s e q u e n c e r i g h t . Yo u s a id 2 0 1 8 fo r P r i n s lo o ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: No 2017, November 2017. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e n Tu c h t e n ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: June 2018. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t t h a t i s t h e o r d e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . B u t t h e r e a s o n i n g – t h e r e a s o n f o r th e s e c o n d is w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: It is the same reason they just c o n ti n u e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And they – they covered the s a m e s u b j e c t m a t te r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t b u t l e t u s j u s t d e a l w it h t h e s e q u e n c e t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 9 . Yo u s a y t h e – d e s p i t e o b t a i n i n g a n o r d e r f r o m P r in s l o o J , w h a t w a s th e n a t u r e o f t h e o r d e r o b ta i n e d 20 fr o m P r i n s lo o J ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I t w a s a lo n g t h is s i m il a r v e in t h a t th e y w o u ld d e s i s t fr o m c a r r y in g o u t c e r t a i n … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C o u n te r in v e s ti g a t io n s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C o u n t e r in v e s t ig a ti o n s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Page 87 of 136 O r h a v i n g c e r t a in p e o p l e 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 in v o lv e d in c o u n t e r in v e s ti g a t io n s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : I n v e s t ig a ti o n s w h o h a d a n in t e r e s t i n t h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t in v e s ti g a t io n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Th a t is c o r r e c t . I t h i n k i t w o u ld b e b e t t e r to h a v e t h e t w o o r d e r s i n fr o n t o f u s a n d t h e n w e c a n s e e t h e dates. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 I j u s t t r i e d t o f i n d t h e P r i n s lo o ju d g m e n t I c a n n o t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t r e la t e s to a n o t h e r m a tt e r. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o I a m n o t s u r e w e h a v e th e c o r r e c t o n e o n fi le b u t w e w i ll a tt e m p t t o d o t h a t. But because you h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h e fa c t s g iv in g r is e t o t h e j u d g m e n t b y Tu c h t e n J th e s a m e p r i n c i p l e s a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t a r e in v o lv e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is r ig h t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 1 0 9 : 20 “ D e s p i t e o b ta i n i n g a n o r d e r fr o m P r in s lo o J th e Mabula te a m c o n ti n u e d with th e ir counter in v e s t i g a t io n a g a i n s t t h e I P I D .” And you say: “They c o n ti n u e d in ti m i d a te IPID harassing members and and a t te m p t in g impede Page 88 of 136 the to IPID 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 in v e s t i g a t io n i n to P h a h l a n e .” M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . A n d y o u ta lk a b o u t t h e w a r n in g s t a te m e n ts t h e r e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A n d I th i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t a t t h e e n d o f 1 0 9 t o s a y th a t t h e r e w a s a f e a r i n tr e p id a ti o n a m o n g s t th e in v e s t i g a t o r s b e c a u s e o f w h a t th e y h a d s e e n b e in g d o n e to O ’ S u l liv a n , Tr e n t , M a h la n g u a n d B i n a n g . S o – s o o t h e r s w e r e a b i t h e s i ta n t a n d o ft e n t h e y w o u ld r e q u e s t t o s e e m e t o s a y h o w s h o u ld w e a p p r o a c h it ? 10 I n v e s ti g a t i n g o ffi c e r s o f I P I D w e w e r e a l s o n o t s le e p i n g a t h o m e w e w e r e m o v i n g a r o u n d a n d s l e e p i n g i n d i ff e r e n t p l a c e s . F o r e x a m p l e w e b e c a m e a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a n i ll e g a l u s e o f tr a c k i n g e q u i p m e n t in o r d e r t o a r r e s t O ’ S u ll iv a n t h e s e c o n d t i m e w h i c h w a s u s e d b y C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e . W e a r e a w a r e th a t w e w e r e b e i n g tr a c k e d a n d m o n i to r e d a n d o u r p h o n e s i n te r f e r e d w i t h . T h e r e i s o n ly o n e o t h e r t i m e t h a t I h a v e l iv e d l ik e t h a t i n my l i fe a n d i t w a s d u r i n g – a s a n a c t iv is t d u r i n g t h e a p a r th e id e r a a n d m y o ff ic i a ls w e r e – w e r e s c a r e d a lo t o f t h e t i m e . A n d – a n d i t c a n n o t b e y o u k n o w o v e r e s t i m a t e d – o v e r e m p h a s is e d b u t in f a ir n e s s t o t h e m t h e y d id d e c i d e to s t a n d fir m w h ils t a n u m b e r o f 20 t h e m w e r e a p p r o a c h e d i n e ff e c t o n ly o n e t u r n e d a n d a c ti v e ly w e n t about sabotaging cases. S o t h is is n o t a c o n s ti t u ti o n a l d e m o c r a c y 2 0 s o m e t h i n g y e a r s d o w n t h e r o a d a n d p o l ic e a r e b e h a v i n g l ik e t h is a g a in s t t h e e x a c t b o d y t h a t is – h a s b e e n c r e a te d b y t h e c o n s ti t u t i o n t o p r e v e n t a b u s e s a n d y e t t h is is w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g . A s f a r a s w e a r e a w a r e n o n e o f th e a b u s e s h a v e s to p p e d . I t h a s b e e n p a s s e d fr o m o n e Page 89 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 c o m m i s s io n e r t o a n o t h e r c o m m i s s i o n e r. I t is e i th e r [i n d is t in c t ] fa ir o r y o u k n o w l o o k t h e o th e r w a y a l lo w i t h a p p e n b e c a u s e a g a i n i t i s y o u r – the brotherhood of the blue curtain. It is ther e and most good – most o f o u r – I m u s t p u t it t h is w a y i n fa ir n e s s t o a ll p o l ic e o ffic e r s . Our in f o r m a ti o n o n c o r r u p ti o n a n d m a l a d m in is tr a ti o n i n t h e p o li c e s e r v ic e c o m e s fr o m p o l ic e o ff ic e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: M o s t ly f r o m g o o d p o l ic e o ffi c e r s w h o w a n t to d o t h e ir jo b a n d d o n o t lik e w h a t i s g o in g o n . 10 CHAIRPERSON : And… MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: So… C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e – t h e r e w o u l d s ti ll b e m a n y o f t h o s e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : I guess that has to be acknowl edged. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : work. budget. 20 S o th e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o w a n t to d o O u r – w e d o n o t h a v e a n i n te ll ig e n c e t e a m o r a n in t e l li g e n c e W e h a v e ju s t g o o d c i tiz e n r y e s p e c i a lly fr o m w it h in t h e p o l ic e s e r v ic e t h a t h e l p u s w i th c a s e s to i d e n t i fy c a s e s a n d o f c o u r s e c o m p la i n t s f r o m t h e g e n e r a l p u b l ic w h o d o n o t lik e b e in g a b u s e d . CHAIRPERSON : The harassment that you have been talking about is p r i m a r i ly a i m e d a t I P I D – I P I D o r is – I k n o w th a t m a y b e s o m e o f t h e L a w E n fo r c e m e n t A g e n c i e s t h a t m a y – t h a t a r e s u p p o s e d t o fi g h t c o r r u p ti o n m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n s e e n t o b e v e r y e ff e c t iv e in t h e p a s t. Page 90 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 S o m a y b e t h e y mi g h t n o t h a v e b e e n t a r g e t e d . experience? But what is your Is i t th is k i n d o f h a r a s s m e n t fr o m S A P S a n d C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e b e i n g d ir e c te d a t j u s t r e a lly p r i m a r i ly I P I D ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: If I can put it this way and again we t a lk in g in s ta g e s a n d d i ff e r e n t s t a g e s . B y t h e ti m e t h e M a b u la t e a m came on the scene… C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: T h e r e w a s n o b o d y le f t w i t h i n p o l ic i n g w i t h i n D P C I w it h in t h e P r o s e c u t i n g A u th o r i ty w h o c o u l d fr o m m y o p i n io n 10 fir m l y I w o u ld b e li e v e c o u ld g i v e a g o o d a c c o u n t o f t h e ms e lv e s w h e n it came to corruption. S o w e w e r e t h e la s t a n d o r g a n i s a t io n s t a n d i n g . A n d w e a r e a v e r y s m a l l n a t io n a l ly t h e r e is 2 6 5 i n v e s ti g a t o r s a n d t h e c o r e g r o u p d i d n o t m a k e u p m o r e th a n 2 0 t h e p e o p l e d e a li n g w it h s p e c i a l i n v e s ti g a t i o n s . A n d t h o s e t h a t w o u ld – t h e s o r t o f t h e h i g h e r u p y o u w e n t t h e m o r e th e r e s i s t a n c e . W e d id a n ti c i p a t e r e s i s t a n c e , t h e p u s h b a c k b u t w e d i d n o t t h in k t h e y w o u l d r e s o r t t o t h is l e v e l t h a t th e y w o u ld b e b r a v e e n o u g h o r d a c io u s e n o u g h t o j u s t g o a g a i n s t e v e r y th i n g t h a t i s g o o d in t h e c o u n tr y. S o … CHAIRPERSON : Ja thank you. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M r Mc B r i d e j u s t t o d e a l w i t h p a g e 2 4 t o 2 7 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t i n a n a t te m p t to s u m m a r is e t h e e v i d e n c e y o u h a v e g i v e n t o i n v i te y o u t o m a k e a n y f u r t h e r c o m m e n t . O n y o u r r e t u r n t o I P I D a f t e r y o u r s u s p e n s io n i n v e s ti g a t i o n s i n t o v e r y s e n i o r p o l ic e o ff ic i a l s in c l u d i n g a c ti n g c o m m i s s io n e r c o n ti n u e d . T h e r e a r e c o u n te r i n v e s ti g a t i o n s t o w h ic h y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d . Page 91 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h o s e c o u n t e r in v e s t i g a t io n s in v o lv e t h e v e r y I P I D m e m b e r s c o n d u c t in g s e n s i t iv e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O n t w o o c c a s i o n s I P I D f i n d s it ’s n e c e s s a r y t o a p p r o a c h t h e c o u r ts fo r o n e o r o th e r f o r m o f i n t e r d i c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e s e c o m e b e f o r e J u d g e P r i n s lo o a n d J u d g e Tu c h t e n ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e h a v e r e f e r r e d t o th e Tu c h t e n ju d g m e n t a n d w e w i ll tr y to fi n d t h e P r i n s l o o j u d g m e n t . I t h in k t h e w r o n g o n e m a y h a v e b e e n f il e d . N e v e r th e le s s y o u s a y n o t w i t h s t a n d i n g t h e o r d e r o b t a in e d b e f o r e J u d g e P r i n s l o o t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a n d a s y o u t a lk – a s y o u d e s c r i b e i t h a r a s s m e n t o f t h e I P I D i n v e s ti g a to r s c o n ti n u e d ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : It s t il l c o n t in u e s n o w. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Ye s . I w o u l d l ik e to r e f e r t h e n ju s t b e f o r e th e l o n g a d j o u r n m e n t t o p a r a g r a p h 1 0 9 w h e r e y o u s a y : “ D e s p i t e o b ta i n i n g a n o r d e r fr o m P r in s lo o J th e M a b u l a t e a m th a t is th e N o r t h W e s t t e a m t h a t c a m e t o G a u te n g .” Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? Page 92 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : “ C o n t in u e d w i th t h e i r c o u n t e r in v e s ti g a t i o n a g a i n s t t h e I P I D . M a b u l a a n d h is t e a m c o n ti n u e d h a r a s s i n g a n d a tt e m p t in g t o i n ti m i d a t e I P I D m e m b e r s t o i m p e d e t h e I P I D i n v e s t ig a ti o n i n t o P h a h l a n e .” Is t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : [ I n d is ti n c t ] 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n p a r a g r a p h 11 0 y o u s a y : “ As a r e s u l t I P I D c o n ti n u e d to e n g a g e t h e S A P S , t h e M i n is tr y a s w e l l a s t h e o ffic e o f t h e N D P P tr y i n g t o a s c e r t a i n w h e th e r t h e c o n ti n u i n g i n v e s ti g a t io n ” T h a t is th e c o u n t e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n I p r e s u m e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : “ Wa s s a n c ti o n e d a t a s e n io r l e v e l .” W h a t I w a n t to a s k is y o u i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r e v i d e n c e o n p a g e 2 6 is 20 w h e t h e r a p a r t fr o m t h e c o u r t a p p li c a t io n s a t te m p t s w e r e m a d e b y a p p r o a c h i n g p e o p l e i n h i g h o ffic e t o tr y a n d a d d r e s s w h a t w a s h a p p e n in g ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I f I c a n j u s t g o b a c k f u r th e r a n d i t is t h e fir s t t i m e I m e n t io n i n g t h is t o a n y o n e . A t a c e r ta in s t a g e a f te r m y r e tu r n I r e a li s e d th a t t h e i r c o u n te r in v e s ti g a t io n s a n d t h a t t h e c r i m i n a l Page 93 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 ju s t ic e s y s t e m is s h a k i n g o r i ts e ff e c t iv e n e s s i f e r o d i n g . I became c o n c e r n e d a b o u t n a ti o n a l s e c u r i ty. I th e n a p p r o a c h e d t h e s t a t e s e c u r i ty a g e n c y t o c a ll a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n a ll t h e h e a d s o f s e r v ic e s s o t h a t w e c o u l d g e t a n u n d e r t a k in g t h a t w e w i ll b e a l lo w e d to d o o u r w o r k a n d w e m i g h t b e e i t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti n g e a c h o t h e r b u t w e w il l d o i t p r o p e r l y a n d w e w i ll r e fr a i n fr o m s t a te m e n ts in t h e n e w s p a p e r s j u s t u n t il w e a r e a l lo w e d t o d o o u r w o r k . S o I w a s c o n c e r n e d t h a t t h e c r u m b l in g o f t h e w h o le c r i m in a l j u s ti c e s y s te m w a s b a s i c a ll y i n e ffe c t a n d I w e n t t o t h e o n ly a u th o r it y w h o d o e s n o t h a v e i n v e s t ig a tiv e p r o s e c u to r i a l p o w e r s 10 a n d t h e y a r e s e iz e d w i t h s e c u r i ty o f t h e s t a te w h ic h w e r e s t a t e s e c u r i ty a g e n ts a n d I w e n t t o t h e D G . Th e D G a r r a n g e d a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n h e a d s o f th e d e p a r t m e n t a n d I c a n j u s t – it w a s a t l e a s t t w o m e e ti n g s p e r h a p s t h r e e . O n – i n t h e m e e t in g s w a s t h e N D P P S h a u n A b r a h a m s , A c ti n g C o m m is s i o n e r P h a h l a n e , C o m m is s i o n e r M o y a n e , m y s e l f a n d t h e D G S S A . A n d a n u m b e r o f is s u e s w e r e d i s c u s s e d . W e u n d e r to o k th a t w e w il l n o t d is c u s s c a s e s o r th a t w e w i ll m a n a g e p e r h a p s d i ff e r e n c e o f o p i n i o n s o r d i ff e r e n t p o s i ti o n s w e f i n d o u r s e l v e s i n t h r o u g h t h e w o r k t h a t w e d o , t h r o u g h o u r p r o f e s s io n a l w o r k . I n o n e o f t h e m e e ti n g s I t h i n k i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r t h e f ir s t m e e t i n g G e n e r a l P h a h la n e w e n t t o th e 20 m e d i a a b o u t s o m e t h i n g a n d th e r e f o r e t h e e ffe c t iv e n e s s o f k in d o f tr y in g t o c o n t a i n f a l l o u t fr o m i n v e s t ig a ti o n s th a t w e w e r e d o i n g a n d c o u n t e r in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d t h a t th e in t e r e s t o f th e c o u n tr y m u s t – m u s t c o m e fir s t. O u t o f t h a t – o u t o f t h a t p r o c e s s t h o s e m e e ti n g s k i n d o f f iz z le d o ff. I e n g a g e d w i t h o t h e r p o li c e o ff ic e r s M r S e s o k o a n d M r K h u b a c e a s e l e s s ly e n g a g e d w i th t h e m t h a t w e h a v e r e s p o n s i b l e w a y in w h i c h Page 94 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 t h e y r e s p o n d t o I P I D . A n d – s o fr o m t h e s i d e o f I P I D w e w e n t o u t o f o u r w a y t o a v o i d li ti g a ti o n to a t l e a s t [ in d i s t i n c t ] p e o p l e a b o u t t h e in t e r e s t o f t h e s ta t e a n d t h e c o n s t it u ti o n a n d r u le o f la w. I t d id n o t r e a l ly w o r k b e c a u s e a n d I t h i n k I t o u c h e d o n i t e a r l i e r w i t h – t h a t p e r h a p s l o n g in p u t I g a v e b u t i t is n o t – t h e m i n d s o f t h e p e o p le in v o lv e d i n t h e c o r r u p ti o n a n d th e c o u n t e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n a r e n o t a n y w h e r e n e a r t h e is s u e o f c o n s ti t u ti o n a li t y a n d r e s p e c t f o r r u le o f l a w. T h e y a r e t h e r e in g r e e d a n d s u r v i v a l . T h a t i s w h e r e t h e ir m i n d s a r e s o it is l ik e w e a r e o n d i ff e r e n t d i m e n s i o n s y o u a r e t a lk in g d i ff e r e n t 10 la n g u a g e s t w o p e o p l e a n d t h e r e a r e d i ffe r e n t i n te r e s t s . W h a t I c a n s a y is t h a t t h e h e a d s o f – I m e a n M o y a n e is g o n e , A b r a h a ms is g o n e , P h a h l a n e i s i n e ff e c t g o n e a n d l a s t I w e n t s o th e p o i n t I a m s a y i n g is i n a n y e v e n t t h o s e k in d o f m e e ti n g s s h o u l d h a v e b e e n t a k i n g p la c e t o m a in t a i n t h e s e c u r i ty o f t h e s t a t e a n d n a t i o n a l i n t e r e s t . A n d t h a t w e l l m e a n t i n v e s ti g a t i o n s a r e n o t t h w a r t e d b e c a u s e p e o p le h a v e n a r r o w in t e r e s ts . O v e r a l l a ll t h e s e a g e n c i e s a r e t h e r e to e n s u r e p r o p e r g o v e r n a n c e a n d t o r o o t o u t m a la d m i n i s t r a t i o n . S o I t h in k i t is i m p o r t a n t t o s a y t h a t g e n e r a l ly w i t h o u t a d d i n g s p e c i f ic s w h ic h I a l r e a d y h a v e th a t t h e r e w a s a t te m p t s b y I P I D a t v a r io u s l e v e l s i n c l u d i n g e n g a g i n g a n d 20 r e g u la r ly u p d a ti n g t h e d i ffe r e n t m in is t e r s th a t w e r e i n v o l v e d . I mean w e e v e n s e n t in f o n o t e s t o N h l e k o e v e n t h o u g h N h le k o h a d s a id h e d o e s n o t w a n t t o e n g a g e w i th m e a n y m o r e . I c o n ti n u e d g i v i n g h i m r e p o r t s s o t h a t h e w a s a w a r e o f t h e s i t u a t i o n a s I d i d r ig h t u n t il m y l a s t m o n th a t I P I D . S o th e is s u e o f p e r s o n a l it i e s d i d n o t i n t e r f e r e w i th I P I D ’s p r o f e s s i o n a l is m a t a l l h e r e . Page 95 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P e r h a p s w e s h o u ld t a k e th e l o n g a d j o u r n m e n t n o w C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h e n w e c o m e b a c k Mr M c Br i d e w e w il l d e a l w i t h a s u m m a r y o f t h e a s p e c t t h a t y o u a r e d e a li n g w i t h n o w t h e c o u n te r in v e s t i g a t io n a n d th e n m o v e o n to p a g e 2 7 h o p e fu ll y w e c a n f in is h t h is a f t e r n o o n . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON : 10 Ye s i t is o n e o ’ c l o c k w e w i ll ta k e th e l u n c h a d j o u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e a t t w o . W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : A l l r is e . I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M r P r e t o r i u s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r M c Br id e c a n w e g o t o p a g e 2 6 p l e a s e a t p a r a g r a p h 11 6 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t ? Yo u there deal with the c ir c u m s ta n c e s of the a p p l ic a ti o n before J u d g e Tu c h t e n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s C h a ir. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u s a y t h a t i n r e l a ti o n t o th a t a p p lic a ti o n : “ T h e r e w e r e a r g u m e n ts f o r b o t h s i d e s a n d a t th e la s t minute D e p u ty N a t io n a l C o m m is s i o n e r General Mfazi gave a written undertaking that the m e m b e r s o f th e M a b u l a Te a m w o u ld n o l o n g e r b e Page 96 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 in v o lv e d in any revenge in v e s t i g a t io n s against m e m b e r s o f th e I P I D t h a t w e r e i n v e s ti g a ti n g t h e m .” M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u s a y in p a r a g r a p h 11 7 t h a t th e t e r m “ r e v e n g e in v e s t i g a t io n ” w a s m a d e b y J u d g e Tu c h te n i n h is ju d g m e n t o n 2 6 J u n e 2 0 1 8 . T h e o r d e r w a s i n e ffe c t d r a f te d a r o u n d S e c t io n 2 5 o f t h e I P I D Ac t a n d y o u e x p la in t h a t i t is th a t A c t t h a t p r e c l u d e s I P I D m e m b e r s fr o m i n v e s ti g a ti n g m a t t e r s w h e r e t h e r e i s a c o n fli c t o f i n t e r e s t? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : [I n t e r v e n e s ] a s a d e c l a r a ti o n o f t h a t c o n f li c t o f i n te r e s t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e J u d g e n o t e d t h a t th e S A P S A c t d id n o t h a v e a s i m il a r c l a u s e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i t w a s a d v is e d o r e v e n d ir e c t e d t h a t S A P S s h o u ld lo o k in t o th a t m a tt e r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right. In p a r a g r a p h 11 9 y o u d e a l w i th t h e s e a r c h a n d s e iz u r e r e l a t e d to a v e h ic l e in v e s ti g a t i o n r e l a t e d in t u r n to G e n e r a l P h a h la n e . W o u l d y o u t e l l th e c o u r t b r i e fly a b o u t t h a t? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: search and s e iz u r e the T h a n k s C h a ir. i n v e s ti g a t i o n Page 97 of 136 had By the time of the expanded and the 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 in v e s t i g a t io n b a s ic a l ly i n v o lv e d a process of corrupt, corrupt r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e t w e e n w h o m ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Between. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n w h o ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: number of service providers. Between General Phahlane and a I n t h i s p a r ti c u la r c a s e a p e r s o n b y th e n a m e o f K e i th K e a ti n g fr o m F o r e i g n D a ta A n a l y s ts a n d D u r a n d S n y m a n a n d [i n te r v e n e s ] . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h a t t h e s a m e K e a t i n g t h a t y o u r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I a m n o t s u r e I d i d r e fe r t o K e a t in g y e t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C r i m i n a l A n a ly ti c s ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: a n o t h e r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r. I th i n k C r i m i n a l A n a ly ti c s w a s a n o th e r, I a m n o t s u r e b u t t h e r e , t h e r e is a w h o l e in t e r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h a lo t o f t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s d e a l i n g w i t h f o r e n s ic s . I n a n y e v e n t th e s tr u c t u r e , t h e m o d e l o f th e c o r r u p ti o n in v o lv e d t h e s e tw o e n t i ti e s in S o u t h A fr i c a e s t a b l is h i n g N a m i b i a n e q u iv a l e n t s a n d th e r e a r e tr a n s a c t i o n s b e t w e e n t h e m i n N a m i b i a . 20 No tr a n s a c ti o n in S o u t h A f r ic a a n d i n th a t w a y m o n e y t h a t is tr a n s fe r r e d to o n e c o m p a n y fo r e x a m p l e C o m p a n y A t o a S o u th A f r i c a n C o m p a n y A – t h e s a m e c o m p a n y – w o u l d th e n b e m a d e a v a il a b l e f o r p a tr o n a g e . In o n e o f t h e s e i n s t a n c e s i t w a s t h e r o u n d a b o u t tr i p o f m o n e y w e n t t o – fr o m S A P S a s t h e c l i e n t p a y i n g t h e s e r v i c e p r o v i d e r a n d t h e n la n d e d i n N a m i b ia a n d a tr a n s a c t i o n b e t w e e n t h e n o n e N a m ib i a n c o m p a n y a n d Page 98 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 the o th e r one c o r r e s p o n d in g and th e n a c a r amount and in b e in g terms made of a v a i l a b le dates of the for a, a Namibian tr a n s a c ti o n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A c a r b e in g m a d e a v a il a b l e i n S o u th A fr ic a ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: So you say that - as I u n d e r s t a n d it – I P I D w a s i n v e s t i g a t in g a m o n e y la u n d e r i n g o p e r a ti o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h i c h w a s u s e d t o f a c il it a t e t h e p r o v i s i o n o f m o t o r v e h i c l e s i n S o u t h A fr i c a b u t t h e m o n e y o r i g in a t e d fr o m S A P S i ts e l f ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: To g iv e y o u a n o t h e r e x a m p le is a p e r s o n w h o w a s i n c h a r g e o f p r o c u r e m e n t d i d n o t h a v e a n y tr a n s a c t i o n s o r i m p r o p e r r e l a ti o n s h i p i n S o u t h A fr ic a w i t h t h e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r, b u t in d e e d d id s o w it h t h e s a m e b u s i n e s s i n N a m i b ia a n d i n t e r m s o f t h e e v i d e n c e a , a tr a n s a c t i o n fo r t h e s a m e , s a m e ty p e o f s e r v i c e to o k p l a c e in N a m i b i a fo r t h e N a m i b i a n P o lic e w h ic h i n v o l v e d a c a p it a lis a ti o n o f the 20 Namibian e q u i v a le n t of, of FDA and the p o li c e m e n then [i n t e r v e n e s ] . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : F D A b e in g ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: F o r e n s ic D a t a A n a ly s is ts . That is K e it h K e a ti n g s o – if I c a n p u t i t – a t w i n c o m p a n y o f K e a ti n g w a s s e t u p i n N a m ib i a b u t i t w a s o w n e d b y t h e p o l ic e o ffic e r th e g e n e r a l w h o h a d b e e n r e s p o n s i b l e f o r is s u i n g c o n t r a c t s o r h a d b e e n in a n in f lu e n t i a l Page 99 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 p o s i ti o n to in f lu e n c e c o n tr a c ts . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n y w a y a s y o u s a y t h a t th e s e m a t t e r s w e r e t h e s u b j e c t o f i n v e s ti g a t i o n ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : [ I n t e r v e n e s ] . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I am u s in g th e example for p u r p o s e s o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t th is w a s n o t p e t ty c o r r u p ti o n . th e It was b i g c o r r u p t io n o n a g r a n d s c a l e a n d i t in v o l v e d b il li o n s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t . 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d I w i ll g iv e o th e r e x a m p le s l a t e r o n . J u s t s o th a t i t is c l e a r t h a t w e a r e n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t o n e c o u n tr y o r o n e , o r o n e g e n e r a l b u t t h a t w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h a s y s t e m o f c o r r u p t io n t h a t o p e r a t e s . I w i ll g iv e t w o m o r e e x a m p l e s ju s t n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t . Yo u s a y t h a t s e a r c h w a r r a n ts w e r e is s u e d i n r e la t io n t o t h e s e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : What happened to the search w a r r a n ts ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 20 W e ll the search warrants were e x e c u te d a n d d o c u m e n t a ti o n in c l u d i n g c a s h m o n e y – I t h i n k i t w a s R 8 0 0 0 0 0 ,0 0 w a s s e iz e d f r o m K e i th K e a ti n g ’s o ff ic e f o r w h ic h a n e x p l a n a t io n is n o t g iv e n y e t b u t w h ic h a fe w m o n t h s a f te r th a t h e c h a r g e d I P I D i n v e s ti g a to r s f o r s t e a l in g th e m o n e y a n d a n i n v e s ti g a ti o n t e a m w a s r a p i d ly s e t u p a n d t h e y w e r e s h o c k e d w h e n t h e y c a m e a n d saw the money had been bagged and tagged and was in a safe and Page 100 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 s e c u r e p l a c e a s a n e x h i b it b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e m a d e t o b e l ie v e i t w a s s t o l e n . T h e m o n e y w a s d e c l a r e d a t a ll r e le v a n t s t a g e s . I n a n y e v e n t K e it h K e a ti n g w e n t t o c h a ll e n g e o n a te c h n ic a li ty th e v a l id i ty o f t h e search warrant. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Wa s th a t c h a ll e n g e s u c c e s s f u l ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No it was not, but just to add a search w a r r a n t w a s e x e c u t e d a t P h a h la n e ’s h o u s e . I t is t h e s e c o n d s e a r c h w a r r a n t . H e n e v e r c h a ll e n g e d t h a t o n e w h e r e s t u ff w a s s e iz e d . S o h e is d e a li n g w it h t h e o n e w h e r e n o th i n g w a s s e i z e d w h e r e t h e r e w a s 10 id e n t i fic a t io n . I a m m e n ti o n i n g t h a t s o y o u c a n s e e t h e m a l ic io u s a n d u l t e r i o r m o tiv e s i n t h e c o u r t c h a l le n g e s a n d th e li t ig a ti o n . So in any e v e n t K e it h K e a ti n g f a i le d b e f o r e J u d g e K o l l a p e n a n d h e b iz a r r e ly s o u g h t t o a r g u e a m o n g s t o t h e r t h in g s t h a t I P I D O ff ic e r s h a d n o r ig h t to e x e c u te s u c h w a r r a n ts a n d t h a t w a s c l a r i fi e d b y t h e J u d g e . a p p li e d fo r l e a v e t o a p p e a l a n d t h a t w a s r e f u s e d . He then A p p a r e n t ly h e is a p p r o a c h i n g t h e S C A a t th e m o m e n t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t p a g e 2 8 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 1 2 3 y o u m a d e t h e g e n e r a l p o i n t th a t I P I D h a s b e e n u n d e r a tt a c k a n d c o n ti n u e s to b e u n d e r a t ta c k . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O r I s h o u l d q u a li fy t h a t. Yo u s a y that: “ Sh o u l d th e s e a t ta c k s c o n ti n u e a n d s u c c e e d t h e r e is a r e a l r i s k th a t I P I D c o u l d b e m a r g in a lis e d a n d a n i m p o r t a n t c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c h e c k m e c h a n i s m o v e r th e Page 101 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 p o li c e b e m i n i m is e d .” A n d th e n y o u p r o c e e d t o g iv e a n o v e r v ie w o f t h e s e a t t a c k s . Yo u s p e a k fir s tly o f t h e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g A u th o r i t y. M a y I j u s t p e r h a p s c a u t i o n a t l e a s t fr o m t h e le g a l t e a m ’s p o i n t o f v ie w y o u m e n ti o n a s e r ie s o f n a m e s th e r e a s l e a d e r s h i p o f t h e N PA . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t i f y o u h a v e o r if y o u a r e c o n fi d e n t t o m a k e a ll e g a t io n s w e w il l n o t in t e r v e n e , b u t ju s t c a u t i o n that you should be conscience of that fact. 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . S o , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. I n t e r m s o f t h e N PA I t h i n k fir s t ly t o n o te th a t t h e r e e x is ts w i th i n I P I D a p a p e r t r a il of engagement. L e t t e r s u p o n l e tt e r s a n d a t a l l g iv e n s t a g e e n g a g i n g w i t h t h e m o n in s t a n c e s w h e r e th e y h a v e d r a g g e d t h e ir fe e t o n c e r t a i n c a s e s in c l u d i n g t h e P a n d a y c a s e , i n c l u d i n g t h e M a b u l a c a s e a n d y e t t h e r e s e e m s t o b e o b s c e n e h a s te t o d e a l w i t h a n ti - c o r r u p ti o n p e o p l e , p e o p l e w h o f ig h t a g a i n s t c o r r u p t io n i n c lu d i n g I P I D . T h o s e is s u e s a r e r a i s e d a n d t h e p e o p le w h o a r e q u o t e d t h e r e w e c a n g iv e – I c a n g iv e e x a m p l e s n o w a b o u t i n s ta n c e s t h e r e o f th e i r i n v o lv e m e n t i n w h a t I b e li e v e is a b ia s v ie w o f w h a t t h e y a r e d o in g a n d w e h a v e a r e c o r d o f 20 that and I am not in IPID now so I do not have access to those records a n d a l i ta n y o f l e t t e r s a n d t h e tr a ff ic o f l e t te r s to A b r a h a ms , M z i n y a t h i a n d B a lo y i . I c a n m e n t i o n t h a t t h e r e w a s a c o m p la i n t g iv e n a g a i n s t B a lo y i b y M r M a h a w k a a n d M r K h u b a r e g a r d in g t h e r e n d i ti o n m a t t e r because at a certain stage Khuba and Mahawka approached Baloyi. My u n d e r s t a n d in g i s i t i s a t B a lo y i ’s in s is t e n c e a n d t h e y e x p l a i n e d t o Page 102 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 B a lo y i t h a t t h e d i ffi c u l ti e s w e r e p r o s e c u t io n . B a lo y i ’s r e s p o n s e w a s and he went to – we assume it was Mzinyathi. He says he has to go to h is b o s s a n d h e w a n t to h i m a n d h e c a m e b a c k a n d s a i d n o I P I D m u s t b i t e t h e b u ll e t. F o r m a l c o m p l a i n ts w e r e m a d e a t th a t s t a g e . When I a p p r o a c h e d Mr N o s a n a a b o u t it h e in d ic a t e d h e d o e s n o t, h e d o e s n o t d e a l w i th s t o r ie s . I m u s t p u t i t in w r i ti n g . T h e t w o g u y s th e n s u b mi t t e d a ffi d a v i ts b u t n o a c ti o n w a s t a k e n a g a i n s t B a lo y i o n a n y a s p e c t. T h e r e is a c a s e o f th e o p e n a s a c o m p la i n a n t a g a in s t th e M a b u la Te a m b y O ’ S u l liv a n a n d Tr e n t o n k i d n a p p i n g a n d to r t u r e a n d a n u m b e r o f r e la t e d 10 matters. Tw o s e n i o r p u b l ic p r o s e c u t o r s r e c o m m e n d e d th a t i n t h e in t e r e s ts o f p r e s e r v i n g h u m a n r ig h ts a n d h a v i n g a n d r e m o v i n g a n y id e a o f i m p u n i ty t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e p r o s e c u t io n s a n d t h e y g a v e a lo n g – s u p p o r t t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w i th c a s e lo n g a n d t h e n i t g o e s – t h e s a m e c a s e g o e s t o B a l o y i to d e c i d e . T h e B a lo y i in w h ic h w e h a v e c o m p l a in e d a g a in s t a lr e a d y. B a l o y i r e fu s e s to p r o s e c u t e . T h e d o c k e t is r e t u r n e d . T h e in v e s t i g a t o r th e n g o e s t o th e t w o c o m p l a in a n t s - O ’ S u lli v a n a n d Tr e n t - a n d i n fo r ms th e m t h a t th e r e i s a d e c i s i o n to d e c l in e t o p r o s e c u t e a g a in s t t h e m . I m m e d i a te ly B a l o y i r e c a lls t h e d o c k e t . d o c k e t t h e n g o e s b a c k t o B a l o y i. 20 Th e L e t te r s a r e w r i t te n f o r a r e v i e w o n B a lo y i ’s d e c i s i o n n o t to p r o s e c u t e a n d i t g o e s t o M z i n y a t h i . M z i n y a th i s a y s h e a g r e e s w i th B a lo y i . A b r a h a m s s a y s h e a g r e e s w i th B a lo y i . N o reasons are given. They are not prosecuted now for amongst others k id n a p p in g , d e f e a t in g t h e e n d s o f j u s t ic e a n d t o r t u r e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e s e a r e p o lic e o ff ic i a l s t h a t are not prosecuted? Page 103 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: J a t h a t is r i g h t . Th e n o f c o u r s e A d v o c a t e M a y e m a w i t h t h e r e n d i t io n is s u e w a s o n e o f t h o s e w h o w e n t a h e a d w i th t h e p r o s e c u ti o n i n t h e a b s e n c e o f e v i d e n c e a n d in c l u d i n g t h e d i s c l a i m e r w i t h t h e o n l y e v i d e n c e i n h is h a n d w a s t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t . W e h a v e s p o k e n to – I m e a n A d v o c a t e To r i P r e t o r iu s is t h e o n e w h o g a v e t h e g o a h e a d f o r o u r w a r r a n t o f a r r e s t a n d f o r o u r – a n d th e d e c is i o n t o p r o s e c u t e u s o n t h e r e n d i ti o n m a t t e r. Ye t i t is t h e s a m e To r y P r e t o r i u s w h o M a y e m a c o n s u l te d fo r t h e fi n a l d e c i s i o n t o w i th d r a w c h a r g e s a g a i n s t u s in t h e a b s e n c e o f e v i d e n c e w h ic h c o u l d s u s t a i n a 10 prosecution. So all of the names m e n ti o n e d of course R a y m o n d M a t h e n j w a w a s in t h e r e fe r e n c e g r o u p . I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r h e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n i n th e r e fe r e n c e g r o u p a n d i n v o l v e d in a p r o c e s s a n d m a k i n g r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s t h a t u l t i m a t e ly l e d to D r a m a t a n d S i b iy a b e i n g p r o s e c u t e d w i t h o u t e v i d e n c e t o s u b s t a n t ia t e a p r o s e c u ti o n a n d m y s e l f K h u b a a n d S e s o k o a ls o . C H A I R P E R S O N : [I n t e r v e n e s ] . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: W h y w o u l d h e m a k e h i m s e l f a v a i l a b le o n a p o lic e r e fe r e n c e g r o u p ? C H A I R P E R S O N : R e f e r e n c e g r o u p b e in g a r e fe r e n c e t o w h a t a p p e a r s t o 20 h a v e b e e n a n a d v i s o r y k i n d o f g r o u p o f p e o p l e p u t to g e th e r b y t h e th e n M i n is t e r N h l e k o ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: S o t h e c a s e s I m e n t io n e d t h e y a r e d o c u m e n t e d a n d t h e r e is a p a p e r tr a il o f a l l o f t h is t h a t is i n e x i s t e n c e Page 104 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 b u t b e c a u s e I a m n o t i n I P I D a n y m o r e I c a n n o t a c c e s s i t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ju s t s a i d a b o u t a f e w m i n u t e s a g o i n r e la t io n t o I t h i n k M r [ in d is ti n c t ] h e i s t h e o n e w h o w a s p r o s e c u t i n g in y o u r c a s e s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t . CHAIRPERSON : Ye s y o u ju s t s a i d th a t h e w a s p r o s e c u ti n g o n t h e b a s is o f t h e W e r k s m a n s R e p o r t o n ly, b u t I a m – m y r e c o ll e c ti o n i s th a t w h e n w e s p o k e y e s t e r d a y o r w a s it Fr i d a y th a t y o u s a i d y o u n e v e r g o t t o k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e a n y s ta t e m e n ts i n t h e d o c k e t o r n o t . Is t h a t r ig h t ? 10 MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Hm. CHAIRPERSON : Yo u a s k e d f o r s t a t e m e n ts – w i tn e s s s ta t e m e n ts , y o u w e r e n o t g iv e o r y o u w e r e r e fu s e d b u t y o u n e v e r g o t to k n o w w h e th e r t h e y w e r e th e r e o r th e y w e r e n e v e r t h e r e . I th o u g h t th a t i s w h a t y o u said. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E: I t h i n k I a m c o m i n g t o t h e c o n c l u s io n that was all the evidence he had because if any of the evidence was r e l e v a n t a n d o f a n y p r o s e c u to r i a l v a lu e h e w o u ld h e w o u l d h a v e p l a c e d it b e f o r e t h e c o u r t . H e d i d n o s u c h t h in g . On a point that M r S a n d i l e J u ly r e f u s e d to t e s t i fy t h e m a t t e r w a s w i t h d r a w n a n d I t h i n k 20 a t t h a t s ta g e w h e n M r S a n d il e J u l y d i d n o t m a k e h i m s e l f a v a i l a b l e a n d w a s g o in g to a p p r o a c h t h e c o u r ts s o t h a t h e d o e s n o t h a v e t o te s t i fy I a c t u a ll y t h in k h e d id g o o d b y d o i n g th a t . O n e w o u ld h a v e h o p e d h e w o u ld h a v e d o n e g o o d e a r li e r o n b u t c r e d i t to h i m h e d i d n o t g o a n d t e s ti fy a n d h e k n o w s a s a la w y e r w h ic h is s tr a n g e b e c a u s e h e k n e w a s a l a w y e r t h e r e i s n o e v i d e n ti a r y v a l u e i n a h e a r s a y s t a t e m e n t o f Page 105 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 h e a r s a y w h ic h h e w a s g o in g t o t e s t i fy a b o u t a n d y e t h e c o u l d n o t s e e t h a t a n o p i n io n o f a n in v e s ti g a t o r is o f n o c o n s e q u e n c e t o d e c i d e whether to prosecute or not. C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is t h e d i ffi c u l ty n o t – I k n o w t h a t M r Pr e t o r i u s i s o n s o m e t h in g e l s e b u t is t h e d i ffi c u l ty n o t w i t h s a y i n g th a t a b o u t h i m a n d h i s r e p o r t t h a t y o u h a v e g o t to a s k w h e r e w a s t h e fa c t u a l b a s is fo r h is c o n c l u s io n t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d b e a c r i m i n a l p r o s e c u t i o n t h e n b e c a u s e if t h e f a c t u a l – i f t h e r e w a s a fa c t u a l b a s is b a s e d o n w i tn e s s s ta t e m e n ts o n t h e – o n w h i c h h i s r e c o m m e n d a t io n s w e r e b a s e d t h e n a t l e a s t th o s e 10 s t a te m e n ts s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a v a il a b l e t o t h e p r o s e c u ti o n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly C h a ir, a b s o l u te ly. CHAIRPERSON : S o t h a t e v e n i f h is r e p o r t w a s t a k e n a w a y t h o s e s t a te m e n ts s h o u ld h a v e r e m a i n e d t h e r e w h i c h o f c o u r s e m i g h t g o t o w a r d s w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g th a t m a y b e in a l l p r o b a b i li ti e s t h a t t h e r e p o r t w a s t h e o n l y t h in g b u t i t w o u l d r e a l ly b e m o s t s u r p r i s i n g i f b o t h t h e p o l ic e a n d p r o s e c u t o r w h o w o u l d p u t p e o p le , c o m m e n t s , c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s a g a i n s t s o m e b o d y w it h n o w i t n e s s s t a t e m e n t s . J a , o k a y. Thanks so. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : S o t h a n k s C h a ir. I n th e , in m e n t i o n in g 20 t h e n a m e s i n 1 2 5 th e r e a r e r e c o r d s a n d I g i v e a n e x a m p l e o f th e e n v ir o n m e n t a n d I k n o w w e a r e a l l t ir e d a n d w e w a n t to g e t d o n e . O n one occasion after Sesoko came back and after Khuba came back we a p p r o a c h e d t h e N D P P t o d is c u s s t h e s e i s s u e s w h ic h w e h a d w r it t e n a b o u t. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C a m e b a c k to I P I D ? Page 106 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : I P I D . Ye s th a t i s c o r r e c t a n d i n o n e o f t h e m e e ti n g s h e w a s – h e h a d g iv e n u s t h e fl o o r f o r – to h a v e a m e e ti n g a n d w e w e r e g o in g t o r a is e w i t h h i m w h a t t h e is s u e s w e r e a n d t h a t is w h y M r S e s o k o a n d Mr K h u b a w e r e w i t h m e a n d w e r e g o in g t o r a is e is s u e s a n d Mr S e s o k o h a d p r e p a r e d a n d h e e v e n h a d p r e p a r e d a p r e s e n t a ti o n w h a t h e i s g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h . W i t h t h is v e r y i s s u e o f p r o s e c u t o r ia l b i a s b y th e Pr o s e c u ti o n A u t h o r i t y a n d in . C H A I R P E R S O N : I d i d n o t h e a r w h o – I a m s o r r y. I d i d n o t h e a r w h o i t w a s t h a t y o u w e r e g o in g t o a d d r e s s o r S e s o k o a n d K h u b a w e r e g o i n g t o 10 address. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : T h a n k s C h a ir. T h e N a t io n a l D i r e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u t io n s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . S o w h e n w e c a m e . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o w a s w h o a t t h e ti m e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It was Mr Shaun Abrahams. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: J a a n d s o w h il s t w e w e r e th e r e M r A b r a h a ms w e lc o m e d u s a n d h e c o n ti n u e d s p e a k i n g a n d h e w a s w i th 20 a l l h i s D e p u ty N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r s o r A c ti n g D e p u ty N a ti o n a l . There w e r e a n u m b e r o f t h e m t h e r e a n d h e s ta r t e d p r e - e m p t i n g w h a t w e h a d w r i t t e n t o h i m to d i s c u s s a lr e a d y b e fo r e w e h a d s p o k e n . S o h e w e n t o n f o r a b o u t 2 0 m i n u te s t o a h a l f a n h o u r. S o I th e n a s k e d h i m is I P I D g o i n g t o h a v e a c h a n c e to s p e a k in t h i s m e e t in g a n d s o h e b u r s t o u t a t m e a n d t o l d m e to g e t o u t o f h is m e e ti n g a n d I s a id n o b u t I w a n t e d Page 107 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 a n s w e r s . I a m n o t l e a v i n g a n d h e p r o c e e d e d t o p o i n t a t a ll h is d e p u ti e s t h a t n o t o n e o f t h e m m u s t c o m m e n t in a m e e ti n g . T h e y m u s t a l l k e e p q u i e t . N o c o m m e n t s a ll o w e d in t h e m e e t in g a n d I f o u n d i t v e r y s tr a n g e t h a t th e p r o s e c u t o r ia l a u th o r i ty is s u b j e c t t o s u c h in t i m id a ti o n . W h a t is p o o r li t tl e I P I D g o in g t o e x p e r ie n c e in t h i s . id e a w h a t is g o i n g o n . So that gave me a good I m e a n i n f a ir n e s s t o Mr S h a u n A b r a h a m s a ft e r w a r d s I s a i d to h i m I a m g l a d I d i d n o t l e a v e y o u r m e e ti n g a n d i n r e s p o n s e h e s a id I a m g l a d I d i d n o t in s i s t y o u l e a v e . S o w e l e f t o n a p r o f e s s i o n a l b a s is b u t i t r e a ll y w a s a n e y e o p e n e r t o s e e w h a t th e 10 e n v ir o n m e n t w a s lik e th a t a n d l a t e r o n I c o u l d t h e n u n d e r s t a n d w h e n p r o s e c u t o r s i n t h e N PA t o l d u s t h e y w e r e a c tu a lly s c a r e d t o a c t i n a p a r t ic u l a r w a y b e c a u s e th e y p e r c e iv e d th a t t h i s is t h e a t ti t u d e o f t h e N D P P a n d in f a ir n e s s i n t h e e n t ir e N D P P P h a h l a n e a n d K e a t in g a n d a ll t h e s e p e o p l e n o a c ti o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n t a k e n a g a in s t t h e m , s e a r c h w a r r a n ts , p r o s e c u ti o n s , a p p e a r a n c e i n c o u r t i f e v e r y o n e w a s b a d . So t h e r e a r e g o o d p e o p l e t h e r e a n d th e r e a r e g o o d p e o p l e w h o c o m m i t te d t o fi g h ti n g a g a i n s t c o r r u p t i o n . S o I t h i n k i t is i m p o r t a n t i n f a ir n e s s I n e e d t o m e n ti o n t h e m . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 P e r h a p s w e w i ll r e f e r to s o m e correspondence as an example of the exchange between IPID under y o u r w a t c h a n d t h e N D P P u n d e r th e w a t c h o f A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s b u t in y o u r s t a t e m e n t a p a r t fr o m t h e e x a m p l e s t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n y o u t a lk o f prosecutions that did ta k e place and p r o s e c u t i o n s t h a t d id n o t t a k e p la c e . MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: yes. Page 108 of 136 you c o n tr a s t those w it h 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t is y o u r c o m m e n t th e r e ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: W e l l I t h i n k t h e m o s t a p p r o p r ia t e r e s p o n s e is to a n d t h e c o r r e c t o n e a s it w a s fo r e x a m p le D r a m a t , S i b iy a , S e s o k o , K h u b a a n d m y s e lf t h e y h a v e b e e n t o l d t h e o u tc o m e o f in v e s t i g a t io n s prosecution. i n d ic a t e s evidence is not th e r e to sustain the P r o s e c u t i o n s n e v e r th e l e s s g o a h e a d . T h e r e i s e v id e n c e b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e t o p o s t p o n e f o r d e la y s o n M a h l a n g u , B i n a n g , O ’ S u l liv a n , Tr e n t . Th e y g o a h e a d . T h e m a tt e r is s tr u c k o ff t h e r o ll b u t o n a ll t h e s e o th e r m a t t e r s w h i c h is a l is t o f t h e m a n d th e r e a r e a b o u t 2 0 10 c a s e s t h a t h a v e b e e n i n v e s t ig a t e d o v e r y e a r s , n o p r o s e c u ti o n s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S SC: And the q u a li ty of th e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d e v i d e n c e in y o u r o p in i o n ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well in th e matters that were p r o s e c u t e d a n d w e r e l a te r w i th d r a w n o r s t r u c k o ff t h e r o l l th e r e w a s n o evidence. P e o p l e w e r e a n t i - c o r r u p ti o n fi g h t e r s . have seen it with what happened in DPCI. In essence – and I I h a v e s e e n it w i t h o t h e r p e o p l e w h o h a v e b e e n f ig h ti n g a g a i n s t c o r r u p t i o n a n d th e in i ti a l s ta g e s o f a n d t h e i n i ti a l s ta g e s o f s ta t e c a p t u r e . Whereas in many of our c a s e s a s i n I P I D w h ic h w e s u b m i t t e d t o t h e N PA m u c h o f th o s e d o c k e t s 20 h a d g o n e t o t h e N PA a n d t h e N PA s a id t h e f o ll o w i n g is m i s s in g . We went and gone to get it and bring it back, send it back to them. So to c o v e r e a c h a n d e v e r y p o s s i b l e e v i d e n t ia r y lo o p h o le a n d i n s o m e in s t a n c e s i n v e s t ig a ti o n s w e w e r e n o t c a u ti o u s l y p r e c is e l y b e c a u s e w e w a n t e d t o c o n v i n c e o u r s e l v e s fir s t t h a t i n d e e d th e r e i s a c a s e a n d w e w o u ld a lw a y s a s k o u r s e lv e s a b o u t i t a n d w e g o t t h e e v i d e n c e a n d i t w a s Page 109 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 s u s t a i n a b l e e v i d e n c e a n d I a m s u r e t h a t w i t h th e c h a n g e s a t t h e N PA w e m i g h t s e e s o m e p r o s e c u ti o n s s t a r ti n g b u t th e i s s u e h e r e is w h y w a s s o m e p r o s e c u t io n s w h y d i d t h e y n o t t a k e p l a c e a n d w e c a n s t a r t fr o m P a n d a y a s o n e o f t h e f ir s t c a s e s t h a t h a d d e a l t w i t h t o P h a h l a n e t o M a b u l a Te a m a n d th e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f o t h e r c o r r u p t i o n c a s e s a r e s t a r ti n g t o g e t – to b e v e n t il a te d n o w i n t h e o p e n c o u r t a n d p e o p l e a r e a p p e a r i n g i n c o u r t . S o th e r e is a c h a n g e b u t a t t h a t ti m e t h e b i a s w e s p e a k a b o u t i t is i n d e e d t a n g i b l e a n d w e c a n , w e c a n b a c k u p w h a t w e are saying. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s , p e r h a p s th a t s h o u ld b e th e t o p ic o f fu r t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o n th e p a r t o f th e i n v e s t i g a t io n t e a m o f t h e C o m m is s i o n t o s e e i f y o u r a l le g a ti o n s a r e b o r n e o u t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B y t h a t a n a ly s is . M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A b s o l u te ly. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h e r e a n y th i n g e ls e y o u w is h t o a d d t h e n o n th e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u th o r it y b e f o r e w e g o t o p a g e 30 of your statement? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 20 I ju s t g iv e a n e x a m p l e w h ic h is o n e c a s e w h ic h w a s a n o t h e r c a s e o f c o r r u p ti o n . F ir s t ly t h e r e a r e a ll t h e c a s e s r e l a t i n g t o C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e b u t t h e r e i s o n e t h a t m i r r o r s C r i m e I n t e lli g e n c e c a s e is t h e c a s e o f – i t is 3 1 M a r c h . I t is 2 0 1 6 . I t i s th e e n d o f t h e 2 0 1 5 / 2 0 1 6 f in a n c ia l y e a r. Someone in SAPS decides that t h e r e is a n e m e r g e n c y – u r g e n t n e e d f o r a p a r tic u l a r s e t o f p r o d u c ts . T h e y w r i t e a m e m o a t 5 o ’ c l o c k in t h e a f t e r n o o n . Page 110 of 136 T h e m e m o is 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 approved. So approval for th e procurement. Orders go out p r e s u m a b ly. S u p p li e s a r e d e l iv e r e d . I n a n y e v e n t b y 1 0 o ’ c lo c k th a t s a m e e v e n in g a m a t t e r w h i c h w a s o n ly g e n e r a te d t h a t s a m e d a y 5 4 m il li o n is p a i d o u t . Th e s to c k is s u p p o s e d t o h a v e a r r iv e d fr o m A u s tr a li a b e c a u s e i t m u s t b e i m p o r t e d f r o m A u s tr a l ia . S o I a m n o t s u r e w h ic h tr a n s p o r t m e t h o d t h e y w e r e u s i n g b u t t h e r e is n o w a y a p r o d u c t c o u l d a r r iv e w i t h i n f iv e h o u r s fr o m A u s tr a l i a a n d 5 4 m i ll i o n w e n t o u t o n t h e s a m e d a y a n d t h a t is – i t w a s n o t p i c k e d u p b y n o n e o f t h e a g e n c i e s t h a t s h o u ld d e a l w i t h t h a t . 10 I P I D p ic k e d i t u p w it h t h e c o o p e r a t io n o f p o li c e o ff ic ia ls . T h a t is a n o p e n a n d s h u t c a s e o f fr a u d a n d c o r r u p ti o n . I t is t h e r e . It h a s n o t b e e n p r o s e c u t e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g a g o w a s th is ? I t w a s M a r c h , t h e 3 1 s t 2 0 1 6 ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON : Hm. M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : A n d s o t h a t is t h e [ in t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t w i t h t h e N PA ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M C B R I D E : Ye s , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it h a s b e e n t h e r e f o r h o w l o n g ? S in c e w h e n ? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 20 I t is p a r t o f t h e r a n g e o f P h a h la n e cases. CHAIRPERSON : Oh. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It has been there since. CHAIRPERSON : Hm. MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Since we became aware of it say about s ix m o n th s t o a . Page 111 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 CHAIRPERSON : 2017? MR ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 2017, ja. C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : On page 30 you deal with the fir m o f a t to r n e y s H o g a n L o v e ll s a g a i n b e fo r e y o u d e a l w it h i t , m a y I ju s t h i g h l ig h t a d is ti n c t i o n b e t w e e n a fir m o f a t t o r n e y s b e i n g u s e d a n d a fir m o f a t t o r n e y s d e l ib e r a t e ly b e i n g p a r t o f th e c li e n ts c a u s e . On the f a c t o f i t th e r e ’s n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h a n y b o d y u s in g a n y fir m o f a t t o r n e y s a n d y o u d o s o – H o g a n L o v e lls a ll o w e d i ts e l f t o b e u s e d s o b e a r i n g th a t 10 in m i n d w h a t p o i n t d o y o u m a k e in p a r a g r a p h 1 3 1 ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : Th e f a c t t h a t H o g a n a n d L o v e lls w a s t h e c o m p a n y o f c h o ic e u n d e r N g l e g o n u m b e r o n e , n u m b e r tw o t h e y w e r e i n v o lv e d in a ll d i s c ip li n a r i e s , a l l la b o u r m a t t e r s , a l l C o n s t i tu t io n a l c h a l le n g e s r e l a te d t o r e n d i t io n a n d t h is is t h e f u n n y p a r t , a n d m a y b e I s h o u l d b e c a u ti o u s a ls o b u t th e y u s e d t h e s a m e s e n io r c o u n s e l e a c h ti m e s o t h e w a y I u n d e r s ta n d h o w it w o r k s , t h e a d v o c a t e s – th e y g e t in s t r u c t e d b y l a w c o m p a n i e s a n d th e s a m e l a w c o m p a n y c a n i n s tr u c t d i ff e r e n t a d v o c a t e s d u r i n g th e p r o c e s s a n d i n th e n o r m a l c o u r s e o f e v e n t s i t o f t e n h a p p e n s t h a t t h e s a m e l a w c o m p a n y c a n e v e n i n s tr u c t 20 a d v o c a t e s t h a t w e r e m a y b e o n o p p o s i t e s id e s o f a p a r ti c u l a r c a s e a t s o m e s t a g e a n d w it h th e p r o f e s s io n a l is m a tt a c h e d t o t h e p r o fe s s i o n t h a t ’s a ll in o r d e r. H o w is i t p o s s ib l e t h a t a d v o c a t e M o k h a r i w a s in v o lv e d a t e v e r y s te p o f t h e w a y i n e v e r y d is c ip li n a r y, i n e v e r y L a b o u r C o u r t m a tt e r, i n e v e r y C o n s ti t u ti o n a l c h a l le n g e , d i d n ’ t h e h a v e a n y o th e r w o r k ? Page 112 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : W e l l th e r e ’s n o t h in g w r o n g w i t h r e s p e c t t o y o u r e v i d e n c e to b r i e f c o u n s e l r e p e a t e d ly, in f a c t , i t m i g h t s o m e t i m e s a d v a n t a g e a c li e n t b e c a u s e th a t p e r s o n t h e n h a s k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e r i e n c e a n d is r e li e d u p o n t o u s e th a t k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e r i e n c e in a c l i e n ts c a u s e , i n f a c t i t ’s th e d u ty o f t h e l e g a l profession to act i n the cause of the client. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I a c c e p t th a t C h a ir e x c e p t i t’s e x p e c t e d in a le g a l p r o fe s s io n they w il l not p r o m o te a n ti - C o n s ti t u ti o n a l b e h a v io u r. 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t is th e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e y o u w is h t o a d d to p a r a g r a p h 1 3 1 ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : N o I’ m c o v e r e d y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : And then paragraph 132, you t a lk a b o u t th e C AT S u n i t , t h e C r i m e s A g a i n s t Th e S t a t e U n i t , w o u l d y o u t e ll th e C h a ir a b o u t t h a t u n i t p l e a s e a n d h o w y o u r e g a r d e d i ts a c ti v i ti e s ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : W e ll C r i m e s A g a i n s t T h e S t a t e U n i t w a s t h e u n i t t h a t w a s u s e d a g a in s t M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n , w a s u s e d a g a in s t m y s e l f , w a s u s e d t o f o r c e V l o k S y m i n g t o n to h a n d o v e r d o c u m e n t s 20 w h ic h d o c u m e n ts c o n c e r n e d l e g a l a d v i c e w h ic h w o u l d h a v e b e e n e x c u l p a to r y i n t h e m a t t e r i n w h i c h th e y w e r e g u n n i n g fo r M i n i s t e r Gordhan. V lo k S y mi n g to n w a s a c o m p l a i n a n t i n – t o I P ID a b o u t t h e ir b e h a v io u r b e c a u s e t h e y h e l d h i m a g a in s t h is w il l t h e r e w a s v i d e o e v i d e n c e , t h e r e w e r e s ta t e m e n ts a n d t h e r e w e r e w i t n e s s e s . Th e y a ls o w e r e n o t p r o s e c u t e d b u t th e fa c t th a t i t ’s c a l l e d C r i m e s A g a i n s t T h e Page 113 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 S t a te infers that everybody there in i n v e s t ig a ti n g is somehow tr e a s o n o u s o r a n t i t h e d e m o c r a ti c e s t a b li s h m e n t a n d o n e d o e s n ’ t s e e h o w c h a r g e s o f fr a u d a n d d e f e a t i n g t h e e n d s o f ju s tic e , f o r e x a m p l e , a g a in s t K h u b a , S e s o k o a n d m y s e l f c a n b e r e g a r d e d a s C r i m e s a g a i n s t t h e S t a t e – w i t h i n C r i m e s A g a i n s t T h e S t a te s p u r v i e w. J a s o t h a t w a s a ls o t h e g r o u p th a t w e n t t o s e e M r K h u b a a n d o ffe r e d h i m a j o b a s t h e r e c o r d i n g s h o w e d y e s t e r d a y, s o i t ’s t h e s a m e g r o u p , C r i m e s A g a i n s t T h e S t a t e . S o o n e n e e d s t o w o n d e r w h o ’s a c t u a l ly c o m m i t t in g a c r i m e a g a in s t t h e S t a te w h e r e y o u a r e p r e p a r e d to a t t a c k C o n s ti t u t i o n a l 10 o v e r s ig h t b o d i e s a n d e v e n o ff e r j o b s i n th e p r o c e s s . CHAIRPERSON : I t h o u g h t w h e n w e w e r e li s te n in g t o th e r e c o r d i n g y e s t e r d a y, t h e o t h e r p e r s o n w a s n o t fr o m I P I D I t h o u g h t h e w a s f r o m C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e , I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: N o t h e f ir s t r e c o r d i n g , t h e r e c o r d i n g w i t h Mr K h u b a . CHAIRPERSON : O h o k a y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h e r e a n y r e l a ti o n s h i p , to y o u r k n o w l e d g e b e t w e e n t h e P r i o r i t y C r i m e s L it i g a t io n U n i t w h i c h 20 o p e r a t e s u n d e r t h e a u s p ic e s o f t h e N PA a n d t h e C AT S o r t h e C r i m e s A g a i n s t t h e S t a t e U n i t w h ic h o p e r a t e s u n d e r t h e H a w k s o r t h e D P C I ? Yo u d e a l w i t h a n i s s u e o n p a g e 3 1 p a r a g r a p h 1 3 4 . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : J a t h e r e i s a d ir e c t l in k b e t w e e n C AT S a n d P C L U b o t h h a v e t o d e a l w i th p r io r i ty i s s u e s , a n d y e t – c a s e s a r e p a s s e d o n t o P C L U a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t t h e r e h a s to b e a Page 114 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 p a r t ic u l a r p r o c e s s o f in v o lv i n g t h e N D P P i n P C L U m a t te r s I ’ m n o t s u r e t h e r e l e v a n t l e g i s l a ti o n o r r e g u l a ti o n s b u t I ’ m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h e y c o m p ly w i t h t h i s p r o v is io n o r n o t b u t th e y w o r k h a n d - i n - g l o v e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 5 y o u d e a l w it h P o lic e M i n is t e r N g le g o a s C h i e f o f S t a ff. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Te l l th e C h a ir w h a t y o u w i s h to s a y a b o u t t h a t p le a s e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a ir. . .( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : And explain, please, to the C h a ir t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u w i s h to m a k e i n p a r a g r a p h s 1 3 5 t o 1 3 6 a n d 1 3 7 in f a c t . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: So Mr Leon Mbangwa whose real name is L io n e l M o y o is e m p l o y e d b y M i n is t e r N g l e g o a s th e C h i e f o f S t a ff in h is o ff ic e , M r M b a n g w a a l s o k n o w n a s L i o n e l M o y o is a Z i m b a b w e a n c i tiz e n , th a t a l o n e d o e s n ’ t d i s q u a l i fy h i m , p e o p le c a n g e t n a t u r a l is e d , h e c o u l d h a v e b e e n a S o u t h A f r ic a n , b u t M r M b a n g w a w a s a r r e s t e d f o r f a ls e I D i n a b o u t 2 0 0 0 h e w a s c o n v ic t e d a n d h e s e r v e d c u s t o d ia l s e n te n c e . H e w a s r e c e n tly – h e r e c e n tly a p p e a r e d i n c o u r t o n t h e 3 1 s t 20 o f M a r c h 2 0 1 9 f o r a ls o h a v i n g f a ls e d o c u m e n ta t io n s o r q u a l i fic a ti o n s i n t h e K Z N C o u r t b u t h e w a s h ir e d b y M i n i s t e r N g l e g o a s a C h i e f o f S t a ff , h e d id n o t h a v e a s e c u r i t y c le a r a n c e , i n f a c t t h e y a p p l i e d t h r o u g h I P I D a s i f h e w a s g o i n g to b e a p p o i n te d b y I P I D to o b ta i n h is s e c u r i ty c le a r a n c e . The State Security Agency wrote a report to IPID and in d i c a t e d t h a t h e h a s a c o n v ic t io n a n d i t r e l a te s t o d is h o n e s ty a n d t h a t Page 115 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 h e h a s f in a n c ia l p r o b le m s , t h e y d i d n ’ t p i c k u p h e w a s a Zi m b a b w e a n a n d th a t h e h a d n o t b e e n n a t u r a l is e d . This matter was also raised w i t h i n C r i m e I n te ll ig e n c e i n my e n g a g e m e n t s w it h t h e m . Now at the ti m e w h e n th e y a p p li e d f o r h is s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e , i t w a s w h e n w e w e r e o n s u s p e n s i o n , M r N g a m a n y a n e w a s t h e A c t in g E x e c u tiv e D ir e c to r. Th e q u e s t io n , C h a ir, t h e k e y q u e s ti o n is w h y w o u l d a Mi n is t e r o f P o l ic e h i r e a c o n v ic t e d c r i m i n a l w h o s e n o t a S o u t h A f r ic a n w h o s t il l is fl a s h in g h is c o u n t e r f e i t i d e n ti t y d o c u m e n t . N o w, a g a i n , a s w it h o t h e r i s s u e s – I ’v e t h o u g h t a b o u t t h is a lo n g ti m e t h e r e i s n o r e a s o n a b l e e x p l a n a t io n , w h y 10 a M i n i s te r o f P o lic e w il l in s i s t , a s h i s C h i e f o f S t a ff , i n s u c h a s e n s i tiv e p l a c e w h e r e s e n s i t iv e d o c u m e n ts m o v e p a s t th e M i n is t e r ’ s d e s k e v e r y d a y, h e w o u ld w a n t to e m p lo y th is p a r ti c u l a r p e r s o n t h e r e . In a l a t e r a ffi d a v i t w h ic h – i n a n a ffi d a v i t w h ic h w a s m a d e b e f o r e t h is o n e , a s t a te m e n t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n , I ’v e tr a c e d th e b a c k g r o u n d a n d t h e l in k a n d I ’ m s u r e i t w o u l d b e m o s t a p p r o p r i a t e f o r m e to t e s t i fy a b o u t t h a t li n k a t th a t o c c a s i o n w h e n w e ’ r e d e a l in g w i t h th a t p a r tic u la r f o c u s a n d h o w i m p o r t a n t i t is b u t i t’s a n i n te ll ig e n c e f a il u r e , i t’s a s e c u r it y r i s k , h o w d o e s a C o m m i s s io n e r o f P o lic e o r A c t in g C o m m is s i o n e r o f P o li c e f e e l s a f e t o s e n d d o c u m e n t a t i o n s o r b r i e fi n g t o t h e M i n i s t e r w h e r e t h e 20 M i n is t e r ’s C h ie f o f S t a ff a c t u a l ly d e a ls w it h t h e m , h e d o e s n ’ t h a v e a s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e , h e ’s n o t a S o u t h A fr ic a n , h e ’s k n o w n fo r h i s d is h o n e s t i e s , fr a u d a n d fl a s h i n g c o u n te r f e i t d o c u m e n ts . T h i s is w h a t h a p p e n e d i n th e ti m e i n w h ic h I P I D c a m e u n d e r a tt a c k , t h is i s w h a t w a s t a k i n g p la c e . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : Yo u w e r e r a is i n g , a m o n g o t h e r s , th is is s u e ? Page 116 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: A s o v e r a l l t o p e r h a p s e x c lu d e a n y r e a s o n a b l e e x p l a n a t io n f o r a ll t h a t w a s d o n e t o I P I D b a s e d o n w h y t h e M i n is t e r a p p o i n t e d t h is p e r s o n , a n d t h e M in is te r h a s p r e r o g a ti v e t o d o that. S o t h e s e c u r i t y o f th e S ta t e , c l e a r ly w a s n o t a n i m p o r ta n t c o n s i d e r a ti o n o r N a ti o n a l i n te r e s t f o r t h e M i n i s te r, th e r e m u s t h a v e b e e n s o m e t h i n g e l s e , t h e M i n is t e r m u s t e x p l a i n i t a n d h e h a s n e v e r s o u g h t t o e x p l a i n i t e v e r, a n d I’ v e r a is e d t h is o p e n ly. W e ’v e a ls o g o t a p a p e r tr a il o n t h is w h o l e p r o c e s s . . .( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : 10 A lr i g h t p e r h a p s y o u c a n g o t o A n n e x u r e X t o th e – t o E x h ib i t Y a t p a g e 1 7 6 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex h ib i t Y ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t’s E x h ib i t X o f – w e l l i t ’s A n n e x u r e X t o E x h ib i t Y, l e t m e j u s t r e f e r t o t h e p a g e C h a ir, p a g e 1 7 6 5 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y le t ’s tr y a g a in , E x h i b i t Y ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P a g e 1 7 6 5 , i t ’s Y D . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, I t h i n k y o u r j u n i o r is l a u g h i n g a t y o u . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l s h e s e n t m e th e n o t e , s o s h e ’s e n tir e ly r e s p o n s i b l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o , o k a y t h e p a g e is 1 7 6 5 . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h e p a p e r tr a i l y o u r e f e r t o t h e r e , I’ m n o t s u r e i f y o u f e e l i t n e c e s s a r y t o s h o w it t o th e C h a ir, t h e c o n te n ts o f t h a t p a p e r tr a il , I ’l l l e a v e it u p to y o u fr o m p a g e 1 7 6 5 o n w a r d s i t j u s t s h o w s t h a t a q u e r y w a s r a is e d b y y o u r a c t i n g p r e d e c e s s o r. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : T h e is s u e t h a t is – w h a t ’s ( i n d is t in c t) Page 117 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 w i t h t h e p r o s p e c t iv e C h i e f o f S t a ff fo r t h e M in is t e r a n d i f y o u t a k e h is a n s w e r to m e a s k i n g f o r h a n d - o v e r r e p o r t h e s a y s , h e h a d h is in s t r u c t i o n s fr o m h is M i n i s t e r s o p r e s u m a b ly t h e m i n is t e r s a y s t o h i m , c a n y o u p r o c e s s th is th r o u g h I P I D a s i f it is I P I D t h a t w a n ts to e m p l o y h i m . Th is is a v e r y s e r io u s m a t te r, i t d o e s n ’ t n e e d f u r th e r e x p l a n a ti o n , t h is a l o n e s h o u l d h a v e h a d a l a r m b e l ls r i n g in g a n d .. . ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) . CHAIRPERSON : S o t h e w h o le t h i n g o f th is p e r s o n ’s e m p lo y m e n t s t a r t e d w h il e y o u w e r e o n s u s p e n s io n a n d M r N g a m a n y a n a w a s t h e a c ti n g Ex e c u ti v e D i r e c t o r ? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : A n d w h e n y o u a r r i v e d h e w a s a lr e a d y w o r k i n g in t h e m i n is tr y b u t o n t h e b o o k s w a s it r e fl e c t e d u n d e r I P I D a s a n e m p l o y e e o ffic i a l o r w h a te v e r o r d o y o u k n o w w h e r e h e w a s r e fl e c t e d a s ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : H e w a s in t h e m i n is tr y a n d a p p a r e n tly o n t h e m i n i s t r y w e b s i te h e is s ti ll t h e r e n o w l is t e d b e c a u s e it h a s n ’ t b e e n u p d a t e d b u t th e p o i n t is n o t s o m u c h t h a t h e h a d a j o b , t h e is s u e is w h y w a s h e p r o c e s s e d th r o u g h I P I D . S o I P I D b e c a m e a t o o l f o r t h e M i n is t e r a n d – y e s s ir. CHAIRPERSON : 20 Ye s , n o , n o t h a t’s t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t q u e s ti o n , h o w c o m e h e h a d a n y t h i n g to d o i n te r ms o f p a p e r w o r k w i t h I P I D i f h e w a s g o i n g – h e w a s n o t g o in g to b e e m p l o y e d b y I P I D a n d if h e w a s n o t e m p l o y e d b y I P I D a n d I ta k e i t th a t y o u n e v e r g o t a n y e x p la n a t i o n fr o m Mr Ngamanyana because you said he left and he never came back when you returne d. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir b u t a ls o t h a t Page 118 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 n o b o d y s a w a n y t h i n g w r o n g w i th t h i s a n d n o - o n e p ic k e d i t u p , n o - o n e w a s i n te r e s t e d a n d w h y n o t . S o h e w a s n o t g iv e n a s e c u r it y c l e a r a n c e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e ll p e r h a p s w e s h o u l d ju s t r e fe r b r i e fly t o t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a t p a g e 1 7 6 5 is a l e t t e r fr o m t h e A c ti n g E x e c u t iv e D ir e c t o r o f I P I D M r N g a m a n a y a d a t e d 2 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 6 t o a M r D l o d l o i t r e q u e s ts a p e r s o n n e l s u it a b i li ty c h e c k o r a s e c u r i ty c h e c k a s y o u p u t i t i n r e l a ti o n t o L e o n M b a n g w a d o y o u s e e that? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : The answer to that request for a c h e c k a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 7 6 7 a n d i t s a y s i n s u m m a r y, “ n o n e g a t iv e in f o r m a ti o n o f N a ti o n a l s e c u r i ty r e l e v a n c e w a s o b t a i n e d w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e a b o v e c a n d i d a te , th e c a n d id a t e is a c o n f ir m e d S o u t h A f r ic a n c i tiz e n , t h e c a n d i d a te h a s a c r i m i n a l r e c o r d , t h e c a n d i d a t e h a s a n e g a tiv e c r e d it r e c o r d , i t s h o u ld b e n o t e d t h a t t h e i n a b il it y o f a p e r s o n t o m a n a g e h is / h e r fi n a n c e s c o u l d p o s e a s e c u r i ty c h e c k ” a n d t h e n y o u t a k e u p t h e ( i n d i s t i n c t) o n p a g e 1 7 7 0 a f t e r y o u r r e t u r n a n d y o u d o s o i n a l e tt e r o f 2 5 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 6 w h e r e y o u a d d r e s s a l e t t e r t o M r Ar t h u r Fr a s e r o f t h e S t a t e S e c u r i t y A g e n c y, d o y o u s e e t h a t ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a i r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u s a y th a t , “ i t h a s c o m e t o t h e a t t e n t io n o f t h e E x e c u tiv e D ir e c t o r o f I P I D t h a t t h e C h i e f o f S t a ff o f t h e M i n is t e r o f P o l ic e is a Zi m b a b w e a n , h e ’s a c o n v ic t e d fr a u d s te r, h e w a s c o n v ic t e d a n d s e n t e n c e d fo r p r o v i d i n g a f a l s e I D , h e c o n ti n u e s t o u s e th is f a ls e ID , f o r s o m e u n e x p l a i n e d r e a s o n t h e r e q u e s t fo r p r e - Page 119 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 e m p l o y m e n t s c r e e n i n g w a s d o n e v ia I P I D in m y a b s e n c e ” , w h ic h is t h e p o i n t t h a t y o u ’v e e m p h a s i s e s , “ w h il s t t h e r e s u l ts o f t h e p r e - e m p l o y m e n t s c r e e n i n g b y y o u r d o m e s t ic b r a n c h w a s a b l e to d e te c t t h a t t h e s u b j e c t h a d a c r i m in a l r e c o r d a n d h a d f in a n c ia l p r o b l e m s , it w a s u n a b l e t o d e t e c t t h a t t h e I D w a s f a ls e a n d t h a t t h e s u b j e c t i s a Z i m b a b w e a n ” a n d y o u t h e n a t ta c h t o t h a t l e t t e r s u p p o r t in g d o c u m e n t a t i o n . Is th a t th e p a p e r tr a il y o u r e fe r r e d to ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o b o d y e v e r g a v e y o u a n a n s w e r t o t h e q u e s t io n 10 fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P o li c e M in is tr y o r a n y b o d y, y o u n e v e r g o t a n y answer? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: N o C h a ir w e w e r e a t t e m p ti n g , e v e n in p r e p a r a ti o n , f o r t h i s – p r o v id i n g t h i s e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d w e h a v e n ’ t r e c e iv e d a n y e x p la n a ti o n a f te r m y l e tt e r, b u t I t h i n k , p e r h a p s t h is is a c a s e C r i m e s A g a in s t t h e S t a t e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n lo o k in g a t b u t t h e y d i d n ’ t l o o k a t i t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Be f o r e w e d e a l w i t h y o u r evidence on page 32 can we go back to paragraph 128 please. Yo u r e fe r i n t h a t p a r a g r a p h to c o r r e s p o n d e n c e b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f in y o u r 20 p o s i ti o n a s Ex e c u ti v e D ir e c t o r o f I P I D a n d a d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s o f t h e N D P P a n d p e r h a p s w e j u s t o u g h t t o p la c e t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e o n r e c o r d . A n n e x u r e U to w h ic h y o u r e f e r i s a t p a g e 1 7 4 2 o f E x h i b i t Y D . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I h a v e i t s ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Now the sequence – you refer to U, V and W the sequence may be incorrect in the Annexures to your Page 120 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 s t a te m e n t , le t ’s j u s t c h e c k t h a t . P e r h a p s y o u c a n e x p la i n a t p a g e 1 7 4 3 is a l e t te r a d d r e s s e d t o y o u i n y o u r c a p a c i ty a s E x e c u tiv e D ir e c to r o f I P I D a n d it s d a t e d t h e 1 9 t h o f D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 , th a t ’s t h e d a te o f i t s s ig n a tu r e , d o y o u s e e th a t , i t’s m a r k e d a s h a v i n g b e e n r e c e iv e d o n t h e 1 9 t h o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 a n d it r e f e r s t o c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m y o u r s e l f a d d r e s s e d t o th e N PA d u r in g 2 0 1 7 . H o w d o e s th a t r e la t e t o th e le t t e r a t 1 7 4 9 a n d a t 1 7 5 3 , i t s e e m s t h a t w e ’ v e g o t to b e g i n a t th e e n d o f t h e s e q u e n c e o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a t 1 7 5 4 , t h e le t t e r o f 2 M a y 2 0 1 7 , is t h a t correct? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t w o u ld y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir b r i e fl y a n d i n s u m m a r y, b e c a u s e y o u ’ v e d e a l t w i t h m u c h o f t h e c o n t e n ts o f th is i n e v id e n c e w h a t y o u w e r e a d d r e s s in g t o t h e N D P P a n d t h e p u r p o s e o f y o u r l e t te r p le a s e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : O k a y t h a n k s – t h a n k s C h a ir, s o a n u m b e r o f le t t e r s w h ic h I’ v e a lr e a d y t e s ti f ie d a b o u t w e r e w r i tt e n t o t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t io n s j u s t q u e r y i n g a n u m b e r o f is s u e s a n d t h e y – f r o m 2 0 1 7 2 n d o f M a y, A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 , N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 7 a n d th e o n e t h a t I w r o t e t o h i m i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 – l e t m e j u s t g e t i t . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t ’s s t a r t w i t h t h e o n e o f 2 M a y 2 0 1 7 , th a t ’s t h e f ir s t i n t h is c h a in , w h a t w a s th e p u r p o s e o f y o u a d d r e s s i n g A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms o f N D P P o r th e N D P P r a t h e r ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h e s p e c i fi c is s u e w a s d e a li n g w it h t h e f a i l u r e t o r e - e n r o l th e c a s e – t h e c a s e s a g a i n s t t h e M a b u l a te a m f o r – s o m e o f t h e C A S n u m b e r s a r e fr o m 2 0 1 0 o n p a g e Page 121 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 1 7 5 5 a n d . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n ) . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t s e e m s t h a t w h a t y o u s a y to A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s i s t h a t I P I D h a s i n v e s ti g a te d a n u m b e r o f c a s e s a g a in s t s e n i o r p o l ic e o ffi c i a l s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t t h e f il e s h a v e b e e n d e li v e r e d t o th e N PA b u t t h e r e h a s b e e n n o a c ti o n in r e la t io n t o th e m a t t e r s r e fe r r e d to t h e N D P P i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : C h a ir ju s t a s l i g h t c o r r e c ti o n , t h e y h a d 10 a p p e a r e d i n c o u r t, t h e y w e r e c h a r g e d a t s o m e s t a g e , m o s t o f t h e t e a m a n d t h e n th e c h a r g e s w e r e w i t h d r a w n t o c e n tr a li s e c a s e s a n d w a s n e v e r r e - e n r o ll e d . S o fr o m 2 0 1 2 t o 2 0 1 7 o v e r a f iv e y e a r p e r i o d , c h a r g e s h a d n o t b e e n r e - e n r o ll e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Right so they had not been p r o s e c u t e d to fi n a l i ty ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h a t w a s y o u r c o m p l a in t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 20 S o y o u h a d m a d e r e p o r ts in a c c o r d a n c e w i t h y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s a n d d u t ie s t o t h e N D P P, y o u s a y t h a t s o m e a c ti o n w a s t a k e n b u t t h e y w e r e n o t fi n a li s e d o v e r a lo n g p e r i o d o f ti m e . MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: T h e k e y i s s u e w a s t h e N PA h a d d e c i d e d t o p r o s e c u t e a n d d e c id e d t o c e n t r a l is e a ll th e s e c a s e s b e c a u s e it w a s a s e r ie s o f to r c h e s a n d t h e N PA it s e l f th e n d id n o t e n r o l , w h a t is Page 122 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 t h e p u r p o s e o f a d e l a y o f fiv e y e a r s to r e - e n r o l i t , I m e a n t h a t w a s t h e k e y is s u e s , w h a t is h o l d i n g u p t h e r e - e n r o l m e n t o f t h e c h a r g e s w h ic h y o u d e c i d e d s h o u l d b e p r o s e c u te d ? C h a ir i n a n y e v e n t th is c o n s t a n t e n g a g e m e n t ( i n d is ti n c t) o n t h e s e p a r t ic u l a r c a s e s r e s u l t e d i n t w o o u t o f t h e s e v e n b e i n g o n t r i a l a t t h e m o m e n t n o w. W h y in i ti a l ly i t w a s s e v e n n o w i t ’s o n l y t w o , w e d o n ’ t k n o w, w e ’v e r a is e d i t w i t h A d v o c a t e B a t o h i t h e n e w N D P P j u s t p r io r t o m e l e a v i n g I P I D , s o th e m a t t e r is w it h t h e n e w N D P P. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 On page – you then in the long le t t e r b e g i n n i n g a t 1 7 5 4 r e fe r t o a n u m b e r o f i n d iv id u a l c a s e s s o m e o f w h ic h y o u ’v e te s t i fi e d t o n o w i n e v i d e n c e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h a t c o r r e c t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Yo u r e a c h y o u r c o n c lu s i o n a t 1 7 6 3 , y o u ’r e fr e e t o m e n ti o n , i n s u m m a r y, a n y p a r ti c u l a r c a s e t h a t w e m i g h t n o t h a v e d e a l t w i t h i n e v i d e n c e b u t I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o p u t y o u r conclusion on record at 1763 please. MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: 20 O k a y, s o “ a s o f 2 n d o f M a y 2 0 1 7 t h e f o ll o w i n g c o n c lu s i o n w a s p i n n e d o n t h e m e m o r a n d u m t o t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s . H a v i n g r e g a r d to t h e a b o v e it is c le a r that we are dealing with rogue elements within SAPS that had been o p e r a ti n g w i t h i m p u n i ty o v e r th e y e a r s i t i s c le a r t o I P I D th a t t h e y a r e a s s is t e d b y s o m e i n t h e N PA t o f u r th e r t h e ir n e fa r i o u s o b j e c t iv e s . To r e s t o r e c o n fi d e n c e i n a c r i m i n a l j u s ti c e s y s te m w e r e q u e s t e d t h e Page 123 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 a p p o i n t e d t e a m o f p r o s e c u t o r s w h o w ill w o r k w it h A d v o c a t e v a n d e r W e s t h u i z e n t o l o o k a t a l l m a t t e r s i n v o lv i n g t h e s e m e m b e r s a s w e ll a s lo o k in g i n to a ll i n v e s t ig a ti o n s i n i ti a t e d b y t h e m l in k e d t o t h e P a g h l a n i in v e s t i g a t io n . I t i ts I P I D ’s f ir m v i e w t h a t s e n i o r m e m b e r s o f t h e S A P S w i ll n o t b e h e l d t o a c c o u n t w h e n e v e r y ti m e th e y ’r e in v e s t i g a t e d b y I P I D they start counter in v e s ti g a t io n s against witne sses and IPID in v e s t i g a t o r s w i t h t h e a s s is t a n c e o f t h e N PA . W e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d , a s a m a t t e r o f g o o d g o v e r n a n c e , t h e N PA t a k e s a n i m p a r t ia l p o s i t io n i n t h is r e g a r d . W e b e li e v e f o r j u s ti c e n o t o n ly t o b e d o n e b u t t o b e s e e n 10 t o b e d o n e i t w il l b e t h e in t e r e s t o f j u s ti c e f o r th e N D P P t o in t e r v e n e t o e n s u r e t h a t S t a te r e s o u r c e s a r e n o t u s e d t o c o m p r o mi s e le g it i m a t e in v e s t i g a t io n s a g a in s t s e n io r m e m b e r s o f t h e S A P S . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h e r e i s a n i n t e r v e n i n g l e t te r fr o m y o u r s e l f a g a i n d a t e d 2 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 b u t b e f o r e w e g o th e r e w e s h o u l d h a v e r e g a r d to t h e le t t e r r e c e iv e d b y y o u o n 1 9 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 a d d r e s s e d to y o u b y t h e N D P P, A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s a n d s ig n e d b y h i m o n 1 9 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 7 . W h a t d o e s h e s a y in r e s p o n s e to y o u r v a r i o u s c o m m u n ic a ti o n s o f w h ic h w e h a v e r e f e r r e d to b u t o n e ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Okay that is 1743 on page 1743? 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t is c o r r e c t. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : O k a y. He ends the document with a c o m m e n t t h a t a M O U i s i m p o r ta n t th e t w o o r g a n is a ti o n s . But in e s s e n c e n o n e o f o u r m a t t e r s a r e d e a l t w i t h s o m e o f t h e m w h ic h I m e n ti o n e d t h e V l o k S y m i n g t o n c a s e . H e j u s t s a y s h e s u p p o r ts t h e d e c is i o n s n o t to – t o p r o s e c u t e t h e C a ts t e a m o n t h e V lo k S y m i n g t o n Page 124 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 m a t t e r. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d h e d e a ls w i t h v a r i o u s in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d m a t t e r s r e p o r t e d b y I P I D t o th e N D P P ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : I n c l u d i n g th e m a t t e r in v o lv in g G e n e r a l P h a h l a n e , t h e m a t t e r i n v o lv i n g Ex e c u ti v e D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l K g a m a n y a n e , t h e M a b u l a t e a m , B r i g a d i e r N c u b a a n d h e s a y s t h a t th e d e c is i o n h a s b e e n t a k e n n o t t o p r o s e c u t e a n d h e g iv e s h is r e a s o n s f o r that. Do you have any comment? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : N o c o m m e n t b u t I w i ll p u t i t i n c o n t r a d is t in c ti o n t o p a r a g r a p h 6 . 3 w h e r e i n r e s p o n s e to m y s e lf e n q u ir i n g o n b e h a l f o f I P I D th e r e a s o n fo r s w i f tn e s s f o r c h a r g i n g I P I D i n v e s t ig a ti o n s . H e s a y s b e c a u s e t h e m a t t e r h a s b e e n h a n d l e d b y th e o r g a n is e d c r i m e c o m p o n e n t a n d t h e y h a v e d e d ic a te d r e s o u r c e s s o e x p e c ts t h a t t h e y w il l a c t w i th s w i ft n e s s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – b u t w h e n i t is o th e r p e o p le t h o s e m a t t e r s a r e n o t g iv e n to t h a t u n i t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : I n d e e d C h a ir j a . S o t h e r e is n o a n s w e r t o t h a t b e c a u s e h e is h a v i n g a g o a t m e a n d i t is o n a p r o f e s s i o n a l 20 m a t t e r I c a n n o t s a y a n y th i n g . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s I th i n k th e p o i n t y o u m a k i n g is th a t i n r e l a ti o n t o a l l t h e m a t te r s th a t h a d b e e n o u ts ta n d i n g fo r a l o n g p e r i o d o f ti m e h e d e a ls w i t h th e m in t h e w a y h e d o e s b u t i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e s w i f t n e s s w it h w h ic h y o u a n d o t h e r s w e r e d e a l t w i th h e s a y s w e ll s p e c i a l r e s o u r c e s a n d e ffic ie n t r e s o u r c e s w e r e d e d ic a te d t o th a t Page 125 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 prosecution? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: Cert – that – that answer shows clear b i a s a n d h e ju s t i fi e s i t b y h a v i n g l o t s o f r e s o u r c e s w h e r e a s o n o t h e r [i n d is t in c t] h e w il l c o m p l a i n h e d o e s n o t h a v e r e s o u r c e s . B u t h e is h a v i n g a d i g a t m e a n d g o o d fo r h i m . B u t it d o e s s h o w b i a s b e c a u s e t h e r e i s o t h e r r e a s o n e x c e p t t h e c l e a r ly s a r c a s t ic o n e . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . I h a v e n o t r e f e r r e d t o t h e le t t e r a d d r e s s e d t o A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s o n th e 2 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 8 w h ic h a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 7 4 9 a n d f o l l o w i n g . I t i s m a r k e d c o n fi d e n t ia l I a m n o t 10 s u r e t h a t t h a t w o u ld p r e c l u d e u s d e a l in g w i th i t u n le s s y o u h a v e a n y r e a s o n n o t t o d e a l w i t h i t . B u t i n a n u ts h e l l a n d I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t w e n e e d t h e l e tt e r t o e s t a b li s h t h a t y o u d i d n o t a c c e p t A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s e x p l a n a t io n s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u g iv e y o u r r e a s o n s ? CHAIRPERSON : T h a t is – y o u d id n o t a c c e p t t h a t e x p l a n a t i o n a n d in f o r m e d h i m o r y o u d id n o t a c c e p t a n d y o u l e ft i t a t th a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : In t h e le t t e r o f 2 3 Fe b r u a r y A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t p a g e 1 4 9 . 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r e p e a t s o m e o f t h e in f o r m a ti o n y o u h a v e a lr e a d y g iv e n a b o u t t w o p e o p le b e in g c h a r g e d in r e l a ti o n t o th e M a b u l a t e a m t o r t u r e i n v e s t i g a t io n w it h n o e x p l a n a t io n f o r w h y t h e o t h e r a c c u s e d m e m b e r s w e r e n o t c h a r g e d a n d o t h e r m a t te r s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : Ja we just – we just stated our Page 126 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 d is a g r e e m e n t a n d b a s i c a lly s t a ti n g th e s t a tu s q u o a s i t w a s th e n . T h e r e i s n o t m u c h m o r e w e c o u l d d o w i th it . W e c o u l d n o t – w e c o u l d n o t t a k e i t f u r t h e r t h a n t h a t . B u t i t i s i n d e e d a r e c o r d o f w h ic h w e th in k in d i c a t e s a b i a s n e s s a n d a p u r p o s e f u l d i ff e r in g s w if t n e s s t o d e a l in g w i t h d i ff e r e n t ty p e s o f c a s e s . A n d t h e r e is a b i a s t o w a r d s o u r b ia s e d a g a in s t a n ti - c o r r u p ti o n f ig h t e r s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t is q u i t e c o n c e r n i n g i f a m a t t e r – i f m a t te r s a n d it l o o k s l ik e m a n y m a t t e r s i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h t h e N PA h a d a lr e a d y t a k e n a d e c is i o n t o p r o s e c u t e w a i t fo r f iv e y e a r s a n d m o r e w i th o u t 10 b e i n g e n r o l le d a g a in . I n th e m e a n t i m e w i t n e s s e s c o u l d d i s a p p e a r, c o u l d p a s s o n . I t i s q u it e c o n c e r n i n g . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : A n d o n t o p o f t h a t C h a ir t h e s a m e te a m w h o is u n d e r in v e s t i g a t io n is t h e n c o m m is s i o n e d b y A c ti n g N a t i o n a l C o m m i s s i o n e r P h a h l a n e t o i n v e s ti g a t e I P I D . S o i t a d d s i n s u l t to in j u r y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O n p a g e 3 2 Mr M c Br id e y o u d e a l w i t h th e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p . B e fo r e y o u d o s o I w o u l d l ik e to j u s t a ll o w you to see and to comment on the document placed before the c o m m i s s io n b y A d v o c a t e M u o f h e who gave evidence before the c o m m i s s io n a n d a d o c u m e n t w h ic h s h o w s t h e t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e a t 20 le a s t a p p a r e n t t e r m s o f r e f e r e n c e o n t h e le t t e r h e a d o f t h e M i n is tr y o f P o lic e . It i s a l e t t e r a d d r e s s e d t o A d v o c a t e M u o f h e a p p o i n t i n g h i m a s a Reference Group member dated the 30 September 2014. Before you g iv e y o u r e v i d e n c e o n t h e R e fe r e n c e G r o u p I w o u l d j u s t li k e t o p l a c e t h is o n r e c o r d a n d b e fo r e y o u . W e h a v e e x tr a c t e d p a g e 5 5 fr o m t h e – I d o n o t h a v e th e E x h ib i t l e t te r o f A d v o c a t e M u o fh e ’s e v id e n c e . Ye s i t is Page 127 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 E x h i b i t Q I a m t o l d . A n y w a y C h a ir m a y I h a n d u p a c o p y o f E x h i b i t Q 1 ? CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : It is p a g e 5 5 o f Ex h ib i t Q 1 f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s b u t fo r c o n v e n i e n c e … CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I h a v e i t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON : S o y o u s a y in g a d o c u m e n t th a t is i n o n e o f t h e exhibits that already exist? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : E x h i b it Q . 10 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Q 1 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Page 55. B u t th is is o n ly fo r c o n v e n i e n c e s a k e f o r y o u C h a i r a n d fo r t h e w i t n e s s . Would you just h a v e a l o o k p l e a s e a t t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts p l a c e d u p o n th e R e f e r e n c e Group? I a m n o t s u r e w h e th e r t h e s e a r e o ffi c i a l s ’ te r m s o f r e f e r e n c e b u t i t is a n i n s tr u c t io n fr o m M i n is t e r o f P o l ic e M i n is te r N h l e k o to A d v o c a t e M u o fh e s e t t in g o u t t h e t a s k s t h a t t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p i s r e q u ir e d t o e x e c u t e . 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : c o m m e n t i f y o u w il l? Just look at it please and I m u s t c o n fe s s i t is n o t v e r y c le a r i n r e s p e c t o f w h a t th e s e a c ti v i ti e s a r e i n te n d e d to a c h i e v e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : C h a ir t h a t is a ll I c a n s a y a ls o I a m n o t s u r e w h a t is t h e ir t a r g e t in v e s ti g a t io n s a b o u t t o d o a ll t h e t h in g s t h a t Page 128 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 a r e li s te d i n th e – a t th e b u ll e t p o i n ts . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s s o fo r e x a m p le i t s a y s “ g a t h e r a ll n e c e s s a r y b a c k g r o u n d a n d i n f o r ma t io n a n d m a t e r ia l” i t d o e s not say in respect of what. w i t h s p e c i fi e d m a t te r s . I t s a y s in t e r v ie w p e r s o n s a n d c o n n e c ti o n T h e m a t t e r s a r e n o t s p e c if i e d in t h i s l e t te r. R e s e a r c h e x a m i n e a n a ly s e w r i t t e n m a t e r i a l d o c u m e n t s o r m e d ia a r t ic l e s r e l e v a n t t o e a c h s p e c i fi e d m a t t e r. B u t t h is l e t te r a t le a s t d o e s n o t s p e c i f y th e m a t t e r s t o b e e x a m i n e d . Do you know of your own knowledge what those matters were? 10 MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: No I am – I am not… A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : O r w h a t a n y o f t h o s e m a tt e r s were? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE: I am not sure. W e w e r e a b le t o i n p r e p a r in g t h is s ta t e m e n t a n d w e q u o t e d f r o m d o c u m e n t s w h ic h w e h a d a t t h e t i m e o f p r e p a r a ti o n w h i c h w e c o v e r i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 8 . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s p e r h a p s y o u b e t t e r p l a c e evidence on record then. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. “ I n O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 t h e M in is t e r o f P o l ic e N k o s i N a t h i 20 N h l e k o e s t a b l is h e d a R e fe r e n c e G r o u p a n d a c o u r t t o d e a l w i t h is s u e s o f h u m a n r e s o u r c e s , s u s p e n s i o n s , t h e s t a te o f c r i m e i n t e ll i g e n c e , a d m i n is tr a ti v e q u e r i e s a n d p e r c e p t io n s o f t h e S A P S . ” A t t h e t i m e t h e M i n i s te r s a i d th e M i n is tr y w o u ld u s e t h e w o r k d o n e b y t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p to o : Page 129 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 “ Tu r n a r o u n d t h e i m a g e o f t h e p o lic e a n d b u il d p u b li c c o n fi d e n c e i n t h e s e r v ic e .” S u r p r is i n g l y t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p w a s c o m p r is e d o f p u b l ic o ff ic i a ls a n d in c l u d e d s ta t e A d v o c a t e R a y m o n d M a t h e n j w a fr o m t h e N PA . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Wa s I P I D o n e o f th e i n s t i tu t io n s t o b e i n v e s ti g a te d i n th is r e s p e c t b y t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : I n d e e d w e h a d t h e t w o v i s i ts b y t h e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p o r m e m b e r s o f t h e R e fe r e n c e G r o u p . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 10 A lr ig h t a n d y o u h a v e g iv e n e x t e n s iv e e v i d e n c e i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f I P I D a n d w h o w o u ld h a v e a u t h o r i ty a n d w h o w o u l d n o t h a v e a u th o r i ty. W e n e e d n o t r e v is i t t h a t . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : I f y o u c o u l d d e a l w i t h p a r a g r a p h 139 please? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : M a t h e n j w a w a s o n e o f th e p r o s e c u to r s in v o lv e d i n u n to w a r d d e c is i o n s c o n c e r n in g I P I D c a s e s . L a te r h e a g g r e s s iv e ly d e m a n d e d t h e s i g h t o f th e c a s e f il e i n t o th e R e n d i t io n s in v e s t i g a t io n . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h is w a s w h il s t h e w a s n o w a n a d v is o r in t h e R e fe r e n c e G r o u p ? MR ROBERT JOHN McBRIDE : I a m n o t s u r e i f h e w a s m o o n l i g h t in g a ls o I d o n o t k n o w. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B u t y o u s a y l a te r in h is p o s i t io n o f a d v is o r o n th e R e f e r e n c e G r o u p r e p o r ti n g t o th e M i n is t e r. Page 130 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H e t h e n a g g r e s s i v e ly d e m a n d e d s ig h t o f t h e c a s e fi l e i n … M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E: T h a t is c o r r e c t . ADV PA U L JOSEPH P R E TO R I U S SC: I n to the R e n d i t io n s in v e s t i g a t io n . D o y o u s t a n d b y t h a t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y c a r r y o n p l e a s e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : 10 F u r th e r t h is w a s a n u n d e s ir a b l e s i tu a ti o n a s M a t h e n j w a w a s a s e n i o r p r o s e c u t o r w h o w a s i n v o lv e d in d e c i d i n g o th e r m a tt e r s r e fe r r e d t o t h e N PA b y I P I D . A t t h e ti m e I P I D h a d a l r e a d y r e f e r r e d th e R e n d it i o n d o c k e t t o th e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t i o n s fo r a d e c is i o n t h a t n e i t h e r M a t h e n j w a n o r t h e M i n is t e r s a w t h e c l e a r c o n fl ic t o f i n t e r e s t w h ic h c o u l d c o m p r o m i s e t h e I P I D ’s i n d e p e n d e n c e a n d s u g g e s t t h e r e w a s s o m e u l t e r i o r p u r p o s e t o t h e e s t a b li s h m e n t o f t h e g r o u p . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u t h e n d e a l i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 0 w i t h y o u r v ie w i n r e s p e c t o f t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n P o li c e a n d I p r e s u m e y o u r e f e r r i n g to t h e P a r li a m e n ta r y P o r t f o li o C o m m i t t e e ? 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u h a v e a b r i e f c o m m e n t t h e r e in p a r a g r a p h 1 4 0 w h a t i s t h a t? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : D u r i n g t h e p e r io d o f m y s u s p e n s i o n I P I D s t a ff w e r e u n d e r a t ta c k b y K g a m a n y a n e d ir e c te d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n P o lic e r e p o r ti n g th e w h o le s a l e t r a n s f e r Page 131 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 a n d n e w a p p o in t m e n ts i n I P I D . N o r e s p o n s e w a s e v e r r e c e i v e d . I t o o w r o t e t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e c o m m it t e e a l e r ti n g h i m t o t h e s e c o n c e r n i n g e v e n ts . I n e v e r r e c e iv e d a r e s p o n s e fr o m h i m . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e i n a d i ffe r e n t c o n t e x t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M r M c Br id e y o u h a v e g i v e n le n g t h y e v i d e n c e d o y o u h a v e a n y f u r t h e r c o m m e n t s t o a d d b e f o r e w e conclude? 10 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : N o C h a i r o n l y it i s t h e m a t te r a t t h e f u t u r e c o n v e n ie n t d a y fo r t h e c o m m i s s io n i f I c a n d e a l w i th t h e i s s u e o f t h e – t h e a ffi d a v i t o n t h e 1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 8 a n d a ls o t h e m a t te r s r e l a t e d t o c l a s s i fi c a t io n j u s t to a s s is t t h e c o m m i s s io n i n u n d e r s t a n d i n g how c l a s s i fic a ti o n and the abuse of power m a n i f e s t e d e s p e c i a l ly i n t h o s e t w o s t a t e m e n t s . and res ources was The second one I r e fe r r e d t o o n t h e c la s s i f ic a t i o n … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Sorry before you go on. Yo u r e fe r r e d e a r li e r i n y o u r e v id e n c e t o c la s s i f ic a t i o n a n d r e f u s a l t o d e c l a s s i fy d o c u m e n ts w i t h i n C r i m e I n te ll i g e n c e . 20 M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h a t t h is d e v ic e w a s u s e d y o u s a y i m p r o p e r ly t o i m p e d e y o u r o w n i n v e s t ig a ti o n s o n s e r i o u s m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o c o r r u p t i o n ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : I n d e e d a n d i n t h e s p e c if ic o n e i t r e la t e s t o a t te m p t e d p r o c u r e m e n t p u r p o r t e d ly o f a d e v ic e b u t w i t h t h e r e q u e s t Page 132 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 f o r c a s h w h i c h w a s t o b e u s e d f o r o t h e r p u r p o s e s w h ic h in t e r fe r e d w it h t h e d e m o c r a tic p r o c e s s e s i n t h e c o u n tr y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t a n d y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t s u r v e il la n c e e q u i p m e n t ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a t is c o r r e c t b u t t h e i s s u e t h e r e w a s it is n o t – t h e y r e a ll y d id n o t w a n t e q u ip m e n t t h e y w a n te d c a s h . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A lr ig h t s o y o u s a y y o u h a v e f u r th e r e v i d e n c e t o g iv e i n r e g a r d to t h o s e is s u e s . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : Ye s . 10 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h e r e – I w a s g o i n g to p o s e a g e n e r a l r e q u e s t t o y o u i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e a n a ly s is a n d a d d i t io n d o n e b y y o u r s e l f G e n e r a l D r a m a t a n d i s i t M r Iv a n P il l a y w h ic h w a s r e f e r r e d t o in t h a t a r tic l e . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h ic h is n o w p a r t o f t h e b u n d l e a n d I t h i n k y o u h a v e u n d e r t a k e n t o lo o k a t th a t a n a ly s is a n d i f it is a p p r o p r i a t e p r e s e n t i t t o th e c o m m i s s io n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R ID E : D e fi n i t e l y C h a ir I w i ll a s s is t t o t h e b e s t o f m y a b il i ty. 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : Is t h e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e th a t y o u w i s h t o m e n t io n a t t h i s s ta g e ? M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : N o C h a ir I a m c o v e r e d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h a t is t h e e v i d e n c e t h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : N o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r M c Br i d e o n c e a g a in f o r Page 133 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 c o m i n g f o r w a r d t o a s s i s t t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d t o a s s i s t t h e c o u n tr y. M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m g r a t e f u l t h a t y o u s t i ll h a v e m o r e i n f o r m a t i o n th a t y o u w a n t t o s h a r e w it h th e c o m m i s s i o n t h a t w i ll b e t h a t y o u r e g a r d a s u s e fu l a n d h e lp f u l fo r th e c o m m is s i o n ’s w o r k . A n d s o I – y o u w i ll – w e w i ll b e s e e i n g y o u a g a in . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it m a y b e t h a t q u i t e a p a r t fr o m y o u c o m i n g b a c k t o g iv e u s m o r e i n fo r m a ti o n t h e r e m a y w e ll b e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s w h o 10 m i g h t a p p ly t o f o r l e a v e to c r o s s - e x a m i n e . I a m h a p p y t h a t y o u – y o u w i ll a l w a y s b e t h e r e t o a s s i s t w h e n e v e r y o u c a n . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h o n c e a g a i n fo r c o m i n g fo r w a r d w e a p p r e c i a te it a n d y o u a r e e x c u s e d . M R R O B E R T J O H N M c B R I D E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Thank you. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir I k n o w i t is o n l y t w e n t y p a s t th r e e t h e r e h a s b e e n s o m e u n c e r t a i n ty s u r r o u n d i n g t h e ti m i n g o f t h e n e x t w i tn e s s G e n e r a l B o o y s e n . 20 CHAIRPERSON : Ye s , y e s . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Arrangements have been made however for him to commence his e v i d e n c e t o m o r r o w. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t o c o n ti n u e f o r a t l e a s t t w o h o u r s o n T h u r s d a y w h e n w e t h e n b r e a k f o r th e E a s t e r b r e a k . Page 134 of 136 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d h e w il l r e s u m e o n recommencement. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e [i n d i s t i n c t ]. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : O f t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s h e a r i n g s o n t h e 2 M a y. I f t h a t s u i t s t h e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , ja . W e – I t h i n k w e w i ll – w e s h o u l d r e s u m e o n t h e 2 n d b u t I th in k w e w i ll a n n o u n c e b e f o r e w e b r e a k i n c a s e th e r e should be a change but there should not – I do not think there should 10 b e a c h a n g e a b o u t th e 2 n d . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir th e b a c k g r o u n d w h ic h p e r h a p s I d o n o t n e e d to d e a l w i t h h e r e . T h e r e w i ll b e a c h a n g e b u t that is being managed. CHAIRPERSON : O h i s th e r e a n e e d ? O r i s th e r e a n e e d to h a v e c e r t a i n ty n o w ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir t h e r e is . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th e n … A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o i f … C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n 2 n d w e w i ll b e h e r e . 20 A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : 2 n d w e w i ll b e h e r e C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : Ja. A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W i t h y o u r le a v e C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t o m o r r o w w e c a n s ta r t a t n o r m a l t i m e t e n o ’c lo c k ? A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir. appropriate. Page 135 of 136 Te n o ’ c l o c k is 16 APRIL 2019 – DAY 84 C H A I R P E R S O N : Te n o ’c lo c k j a . O k a y w e w i ll t h e n a d j o u r n f o r t h e d a y a n d to m o r r o w w e w il l s ta r t a t t e n . A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON : We adjourn. REGISTRAR: All rise. I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S 10 Page 136 of 136