C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

14 JANUARY 2020

D AY 1 9 8

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 14 JANUARY 2020
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g Mr P r e t o r i u s , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : G o o d m o r n i n g D C J .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g i n t h e N e w Ye a r. Ye s a r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s w e a r e r e a d y C h a ir. T h e r e a r e a f e w
p r o c e d u r a l m a t t e r s to d e a l w i t h b u t t h e r e s p o n d e n t i n th e p r e s e n t
a p p lic a ti o n f o r th e is s u e o f s u m m o n s i n r e la t io n t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f
f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a r e p r e s e n t. I f th e y c o u l d p l a c e t h e m s e lv e s o n
record?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

C o m p l i m e n t s o f t h e N e w Ye a r.

C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m p li m e n ts o f t h e N e w Ye a r t o y o u .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

A s t o g e th e r w it h M r S k a k a n e a n d

in s t r u c t e d b y M a n ts h a .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

We appear for the former President

Zuma.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

B y w a y o f i n tr o d u c t i o n C h a ir t h e

a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t w i t h d o c u m e n t s a n n e x e d w a s r e c e i v e d y e s t e r d a y
a ft e r n o o n a t a b o u t f o u r o ’c lo c k . I t r a is e s a n u m b e r o f is s u e s i n v a r io u s
c a t e g o r ie s a n d i f I c o u l d j u s t o u t li n e s t h e s e i n o r d e r t o d e c id e a w a y
forward?

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

We are ready to argue the whole matter

C h a ir a n d th a t c o u l d p r o p e r l y v e n t il a te d t a k e u p to a d a y a n d i t i s
n e c e s s a r y p e r h a p s g iv e n t h e p r o g r a m t o d a y t o f i n d a n e ffic i e n t a n d
e ffe c t w a y t o d e a l w it h t h is a p p li c a t io n .

Th e is s u e s fa ll i n t o v a r io u s

c a t e g o r ie s .
T h e f ir s t c a te g o r y o f is s u e i s t h e m e d ic a l c o n d i ti o n a s w e n o w l e a r n e d
in t h e a n s w e r e d p a p e r s .

T h a t i s a f a c t u a l e n q u ir y.

T h e m e d ic a l

c o n d i ti o n i s n o t e s ta b l is h e d o n t h e p a p e r s b u t t h e r e is a te n d e r t o
10

p r o v i d e w i th c o n fi d e n ti a l i n f o r m a t i o n i n c h a m b e r s a n d y o u C h a ir w il l
t h e n a s s e s s t h a t in r e la t io n to a s u m m o n s i s s u e d f o r 2 7 J a n u a r y 2 0 2 0 .
T h e s e c o n d c a t e g o r y o f is s u e i s a c a te g o r y o f l e g a l is s u e .
Yo u r r i g h t t o is s u e s u m m o n s C h a ir is c h a l le n g e d o n v a r i o u s g r o u n d s .
T h a t i s a s e p a r a te i s s u e . Th a t Is a n i s s u e t h a t p e r h a p s n e e d s p r o p e r ly
t o b e v e n t il a te d fo r t h e p r e s e n t a n d f u tu r e p u r p o s e s b u t i t is n o t u r g e n t
t h a t i t b e d e a l t w i th t o d a y.
T h e t h ir d c a t e g o r y o f i s s u e s i n t h e a n s w e r th e r e a r e a n u m b e r
o f a t ta c k s o n t h e i n te g r it y o f t h e c o m m i s s io n , o n m e m b e r s o f t h e l e g a l
t e a m b a s e d o n i n c o r r e c t f a c t s a n d th e y n e e d t o b e d e a l t w i th . W e a r e

20

r e a d y t o d e a l w i t h i s s u e s t o t h e l e g a l is s u e s a n d t h e

fa c t u a l

in a c c u r a c i e s a n d a tt a c k s o n t h e i n t e g r i t y o f t h e c o m m i s s io n n o w s h o u l d
y o u w is h t h a t t o h a p p e n .
B u t t h e r e is o n e c a v e a t C h a ir. T h e – t h i s a p p l ic a ti o n a n d i t s
c o n te n ts m a y h a v e fu t u r e i m p l ic a ti o n s i n l it i g a t io n o r o th e r w i s e a n d
p e r h a p s i t is n e c e s s a r y fo r t h a t r e a s o n to g o o n r e c o r d a t s o m e s t a g e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
o r a n o t h e r in a f o r m a l s e n s e s o t h a t th e s e m a t t e r s a r e p r o p e r l y d e a lt
w i t h o n r e c o r d r a t h e r t h a n j u s t d e a l t w i th a d h o c i n a r g u m e n t b u t w e a r e
r e a d y t o d e a l w i t h th e m .
U l t i m a te ly h o w e v e r t o d a y w e w o u l d s e e k t h e is s u e o f a
summons on an appropriate date.

I f t h a t a p p r o p r ia t e d a te b e c o m e s

in a p p r o p r ia t e f o r m e d i c a l r e a s o n s o r w h a t e v e r t h e n t h a t c a n b e d e a l t
w i t h a t t h a t s t a g e . B u t i t s e e m s t h a t t h e c a s e o f t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t is
t h a t h e is i ll a n d r e c e iv in g tr e a t m e n t b o th h e r e a n d a b r o a d u n ti l – w il l
n o t b e a v a i la b le u n ti l M a r c h f o r t h a t r e a s o n .
10

Th a t n e e d s t o b e

e s t a b li s h e d b e f o r e y o u p e r h a p s a t y o u r i n s t a n c e b y c o n f id e n ti a l
in f o r m a ti o n g iv e n t o y o u in c h a m b e r s .
B u t th o s e a r e t h e p r o c e d u r a l is s u e s t h a t n e e d c la r i ty n o w. W e
a r e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d s h o u l d y o u s o d ir e c t o n a ll i s s u e s .

However it

m a y b e p r e fe r a b le to g o f o r m a lly o n r e c o r d t o d e a l w i t h a t t a c k s o n t h e
in t e g r i ty o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d t o d e a l w i t h i n a c c u r a c i e s a n d t o d e a l
p r o p e r ly w i t h t h e l e g a l i s s u e s a n d c h a ll e n g e s r a i s e d t o y o u r ju r is d i c ti o n
a n d c a p a c i ty in t h e a n s w e r i n g p a p e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I d o n o t s e e w h y a r g u m e n t o n th is a p p l ic a ti o n

s h o u l d t a k e a d a y a t a ll . T h e r e m a y b e a l o t o f p a p e r s t h a t a r e p u t i n
20

h e r e b u t r e a l ly th e i s s u e s a r e v e r y c r i s p a s fa r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A s f a r a s w e a r e c o n c e r n e d t o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : It d e p e n d s o n t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m a y w e l l b e th a t t h e r e a r e m a t t e r s t h a t th e l e g a l

t e a m a n d t h e s e c r e ta r y m ig h t n e e d t o r e s p o n d t o b e c a u s e t h e y a r e –

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
t h e y h a v e b e e n s a i d t h e r e o n r e c o r d b u t t h a t d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r il y m e a n
t h a t w e w o u ld n e e d t o t a k e a w h o l e d a y f o r th is a p p li c a t io n .

I t h in k

t h a t y o u m a y n e e d to d e c i d e w h e t h e r y o u n e e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o h a v e a
r e p ly i n g a ff id a v i t t o d e a l w i th t h e s e v a r i o u s m a tt e r s b e f o r e t h e m a t t e r is
a r g u e d . I n w h ic h c a s e w e m a y h a v e t o m a y b e a d jo u r n fo r a fe w d a y s
before argument is heard.

B e c a u s e t h e – t h e u s u a l w a y is th a t i f a n

a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t to p u t u p a n d th e r e a r e m a t t e r s t h a t y o u f e e l n e e d
t o b e r e s p o n d e d t o is t o h a v e t h a t d e a l t w i t h p r o p e r ly b y w a y o f a
r e p ly i n g a ff i d a v i t . S o y o u m ig h t w is h t o t a k e a v ie w o f t h a t . I – I w o u l d
10

n o t b e d is i n c l i n e d t o a d jo u r n i n g t h e h e a r i n g o f a r g u m e n t to l a t e r t h is
w e e k i f t h a t w e r e t o b e th e w a y t o g o . S o – t h e r e – t h e r e i s th a t is s u e .
I th in k t h a t is t h e fi r s t is s u e o n w h ic h …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d t o ta k e a v ie w a n d …
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C : T h e fa c t o r s r e l e v a n t t o t h a t d e c i s i o n a r e
fir s tly t h a t t h e o r i g i n a l u r g e n c y o f th e m a t t e r o r s e m i - u r g e n c y w a s
d ic t a t e d b y t h e is s u e o f a d ir e c t iv e b y y o u r s e l f t h a t M r Zu m a s h o u l d

20

a p p e a r o n t h e 2 7 J a n u a r y. T h a t m a y o r m a y n o t fa ll a w a y d e p e n d i n g o n
y o u r d e c is io n i n r e l a ti o n t o th e fir s t is s u e , t h e m e d i c a l c o n d it i o n .
The second issue, the need to go on record. We are ready to
a r g u e a n d d e a l w i th a ll t h e is s u e s w e p r e p a r e d l a s t n ig h t a n d w e a r e
r e a d y to g o o n r e c o r d . I t m a y b e th a t it i s c o n v e n i e n t th a t a n a ff i d a v i t
is f il e d i n d u e c o u r s e . I t n e e d n o t d e l a y t h e a r g u m e n t.

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T h e ti m e t a k e n t o d a y is d e p e n d e n t e n tir e ly C h a i r o n t h e
a tt i tu d e ta k e n b y m y l e a r n e d fr ie n d a n d t o w h a t e x t e n t h e w i s h e s t o
c a n v a s t h e n u m e r o u s i s s u e s b o t h f a c t u a l a n d le g a l r a is e d i n t h e
a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t b u t y o u – y o u w il l c o n tr o l th o s e p r o c e e d in g s n o
d o u b t C h a ir.
B u t o th e r t h a n t h a t w e a g r e e t h a t th e is s u e s a r e q u i t e c r is p .
Yo u r p o w e r c a n n o t b e q u e s ti o n e d a t t h i s s t a g e a t l e a s t i n t h is fo r u m . I t
is a m a t t e r o f s t a tu t e a n d t h e – t h e n e c e s s i ty f o r M r Z u m a t o g iv e
e v i d e n c e i s a l s o a m a t te r t h a t c a n b e d e a l t w it h i n a s t r a ig h t f o r w a r d
10

m a t t e r. T h e r e a l is s u e t h e n is w h e t h e r a s u m m o n s i s n e c e s s a r y o r t h a t
o n e c a n c o n t in u e t o r e ly o n p r o m is e s o f c o o p e r a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I a m n o t s u r e a b o u t h a v i n g a r g u m e n t f ir s t a n d

t h e n m a y b e a r e p l y i n g a ffi d a v it la t e r o r j u s t r e s p o n d i n g fr o m t h e b a r o n
m a t t e r s d e a l t w i t h in a n a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v it t o p u t o n r e c o r d , I a m n o t
sure.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s y o u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e t h e r t h a t is t h e b e s t w a y.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : It is u n t id y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
20

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d m a y i n f a c t b e c a u s e o f t h o s e r e a s o n s
h a v e c o n s e q u e n c e s th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e c o m m i s s i o n n e e d s t o p r o te c t i ts e l f

a g a in s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : If t h e r e a r e l a te r p r o c e e d in g s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, ja. So…

A D V PA U L P R E T O R I U S S C :

Th a t is t h a t is s u e .

I n th e m e a n w h i le

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t m a y b e c o n v e n i e n t t o d e a l w it h th e

f a c tu a l m e d ic a l is s u e i n c h a m b e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Ja.

L e t m e s a y t h is a b o u t th e m e d ic a l is s u e .

L a s t t i m e w h e n t h e la w y e r s f o r th e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t i n d ic a t e d t h a t h e
10

was not able to come and appear before the commission because he
w a s n o t w e ll .

T h e c o m m i s s i o n d id n o t e v e n a s k f o r a m e d ic a l

c e r t if ic a te . Th e c o m m i s s io n a c c e p te d h i s w o r d . A t l e a s t I a c c e p t e d h is
word.

T h is t i m e h e h a s o ff e r e d t o m a k e a v a i l a b le t o t h e c h a ir p e r s o n

in f o r m a ti o n t o s u p p o r t h is p o s i ti o n t h a t h e n e e d s to b e a w a y o n m e d ic a l
g r o u n d s . I ju s t w a n t to s a y a t th is s t a g e I a m n o t s a y in g – I t h i n k it is a
g o o d th in g t h a t h e h a s o ffe r e d w i t h o u t b e in g c o m p e l le d b y a n y b o d y t o
m a k e th a t i n f o r m a t i o n a v a i la b l e to th e c h a ir p e r s o n . I m a y h a v e t o – to
s e e w h a t h e o ffe r s t o le t m e s e e b u t i f I d o s o I w o u l d n o t b e d o i n g s o
w i t h o u t a n y r e l u c t a n c e . Fr o m w h a t I h a v e b e e n to l d i n t h e a ff id a v i t i t
20

s e e m s th a t w h a t h e i s o ff e r in g m e t o s e e m a y r e v e a l h i s i ll n e s s a n d I
h a v e s o m e d is c o m f o r t w i t h h a v i n g t o s e e a n y b o d y ’s – a n y i n f o r m a t i o n
r e l a ti n g to a n y b o d y ’s i ll n e s s a s s u c h . I a m n o t s a y i n g t h a t I n e c e s s a r il y
w i ll n o t b u t I ju s t w a n t e v e r y b o d y t o k n o w th a t I – i t is n o t s o m e th in g I
w o u ld d o w it h o u t a n y d is c o m f o r t .

B u t t h e i s s u e w o u l d b e – t h e f ir s t

is s u e w o u l d b e w h e t h e r i f w e t a lk a b o u t t h e w a y fo r w a r d o n e o f t h e

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is s u e s w e h a v e t o l o o k a t is w h e th e r a s t h i n g s p r e s e n t ly s t a n d t h e l e g a l
t e a m w o u l d b e i n s is ti n g th a t th e s u m m o n s b e i s s u e d in r e g a r d t o t h e
period that has already been determined namely the 27 t 31 January or
w h e t h e r t h e p o s i ti o n m a y b e th a t m a y b e i n r e g a r d t o t h o s e d a t e s t h e r e
m a y b e a c c e p t a n c e t h a t t h e r e m a y b e a p r o b l e m i n te r ms o f h is m e d i c a l
s i tu a ti o n a n d t h e n t h e q u e s ti o n m i g h t th e n b e w h e t h e r t h e le g a l te a m
w o u ld s e e k t h a t I a u t h o r i s e th e is s u in g o f a s u m m o n s f o r o t h e r d a te s
o th e r t h a n th e d a t e s o f 2 7 J a n u a r y t o 3 1 J a n u a r y.

I th i n k th a t th a t –

t h a t is – b e c a u s e i f w h a t i s b e i n g – if i t i s a c c e p t e d th a t m a y b e fo r t h e
10

d a t e s o f 2 7 to 3 1 J a n u a r y th e r e i s a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e m a y b e th e r e
might be no basis not to accept what he has said I could be shown as
s h o w i n g t h a t h e n e e d s to b e a w a y.

T h e n i t m a y b e th a t w h a t m i g h t

r e m a in is to s a y, o k a y t h e – t h e d a t e s o f 2 7 to 3 1 J a n u a r y m i g h t b e a
p r o b le m b u t le t u s t a lk a b o u t w h e t h e r a s u m m o n s s h o u ld b e i s s u e d f o r
a n o t h e r s e t o f d a te s a n d w e ta k e i t f r o m t h e r e . A n d t h a t m i g h t ti e in
w i t h th e q u e s t io n o f a r e p ly i n g a ffi d a v it a s w e ll .

S o it m a y w e ll b e

d e p e n d in g o n t h e p o s i ti o n t a k e n i n r e g a r d to t h e 2 7 to 3 1 J a n u a r y – i t
m a y w e ll b e t h a t a n a d j o u r n m e n t t o e n a b l e th e le g a l t e a m t o fi le a
r e p ly i n g a ff id a v i t a n d n e w d a t e s t o b e d e te r m i n e d a n d a r g u m e n t c a n
20

then be heard.

A n a r g u m e n t m i g h t n o t n e e d t o b e h e a r d o n ly w h e n

those dates may be unknown. Maybe it can be heard even if they have
n o t b e e n d e t e r m i n e d o r m a y b e t h e y n e e d t o b e d e t e r m i n e d f ir s t .

So

t h e r e n e e d s to b e a n a p p li c a t io n o f m i n d t o – to t h a t i s s u e . S o m a y b e I
s h o u l d h e a r w h a t c o u n s e l f o r th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t h a s to s a y i n t e r m s
o f t h e s e p r e li m i n a r y r e m a r k s b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld t h a t b e f i n e o r d o y o u o r w o u l d y o u l ik e to s a y
something?
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : It is i n o r d e r. M a y I j u s t p l a c e o n r e c o r d ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : I n r e s p o n s e t o w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d C h a ir.
Fi r s tl y w e w o u l d a d o p t th e l a t te r a p p r o a c h .

We have no basis to

c o n te s t t h e m e d i c a l in f o r m a t io n o n th e a ffi d a v it b u t w o u ld i n s is t
p e r h a p s in s i s t is t o o a s t r o n g a w o r d C h a ir w o u l d r e q u e s t t h a t s u m m o n s
10

b e is s u e d f o r a la t e r d a t e s u b j e c t t o c o n s i d e r a t io n i n t h e i n t e r i m . A n d
t h e n e x t p o i n t is b e c a u s e o f t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f th e is s u e s r a is e d i n t h e
a n s w e r i n g a ffi d a v i t fo r t h e i n t e g r i ty o f t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d i ts w o r k i t is
p r e f e r a b l e th a t w e g o o n r e c o r d b e f o r e a r g u m e n t . T h e o t h e r a l t e r n a t iv e
is – is to o u n t id y a n d h a s p o s s i b le …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : N e g a t iv e c o n s e q u e n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r a r g u m e n t w o u l d h a v e t o b e o n r e c o r d a n d in t h e
open hearing.
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON: So maybe let me hear M r Masuku and then we take it
fr o m t h e r e .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U S C :

Just as a – as a preliminary remark.

I

w o u ld u r g e t h a t t h i s c o m m is s i o n a n d t h e – p a r t ic u l a r ly th e l e a d e r s , t h e

Page 9 of 155

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le g a l t e a m o f t h e c o m m is s i o n e x te n d s t o u s a n d o u r c l i e n t t h e
p r e s u m p ti o n o f i n t e g r i t y. I t is v e r y i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e th e c o m m i s s io n
is d o i n g v e r y i m p o r t a n t w o r k . T h e y m u s t tr y d i ff ic u l t a s i t i s t o e x te n d
t o u s t h e p r e s u m p t io n th a t w h e n w e g i v e o u r w o r d t o t h e c o m m is s i o n w e
m e a n w h a t w e s a y. I t is v e r y e m b a r r a s s i n g t o s t a n d h e r e a n d to h a v e
t o t e l l t h e c o m m i s s io n th a t t h e P r e s i d e n t o r t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t h a s a
m e d i c a l c o n d i ti o n t h a t p r e v e n ts h i m fr o m c o m i n g to th e c o m m i s s i o n
u n d e r a t h r e a t o f s u b p o e n a . T h e s e a r e i s s u e s th a t c a n s i m p ly b e d e a l t
w i t h t o p r e s e r v e t h e d i g n i ty o f p e o p l e t h a t a r e in v o lv e d . T h e id e a t h a t
10

t h e y a r e r e a d y to p r o c e e d a n d h a v e th i s m a t t e r h e a r d b u t i n s i s t o n
fi li n g a n a ff id a v i t – a r e p ly i n g a ffi d a v i t i n f u t u r e is ju s t s u p e r fl u o u s . I t
d o e s n o t m a k e a n y s e n s e b e c a u s e o r n o t c o n c e iv a b l e b a s is is a
r e p ly i n g a ff id a v i t c o n c e i v e d u n d e r

th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e y

in s is t e d t h e y a r e r e a d y t o a r g u e t h e m a t t e r. W e a r e r e a d y t o a r g u e th e
matter but we accept that we have got to preserve the – the
a t m o s p h e r e o f d i g n i ty th a t th is c o m m is s i o n o u g h t to i n s is t o n . W e t a k e
g r e a t e x c e p ti o n t h a t i t h a s c o m e t o th is p o i n t w h e r e t h e l e g a l t e a m s e e s
it f i t i n t h e f a c t o f h a v i n g b e e n to ld t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t o r th e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t h a s a m e d ic a l c o n d it i o n t h a t p r e v e n t s h i m fr o m c o m in g t h a t
20

t h e y i n s is t o n h a v i n g to a r g u e a s u m m o n s . I t is j u s t e x tr a o r d i n a r y b u t i t
t e ll s u s e x a c t ly w h a t w e a c c u s e t h e m o f .

T h a t th e y a r e – th e r e is a

d e e p s e a t e d a n ti p a th y a n d I u s e v e r y s tr o n g te r ms b e c a u s e i t is w h a t it
is t o w a r d s o u r c li e n t.
O n w h a t b a s is a f t e r h e h a s b e e n t o l d – a f t e r – a f te r M r Z u m a
h a s g o n e fo r m e d ic a l t r e a t m e n t w h e n h e g o e s n e x t w e e k , o n w h a t b a s is

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in a s u m m o n s a p p lic a ti o n is c o m p e t e n t?

H e w a s n o t p r e s e n t o n th e

s c h e d u l e d d a t e b e c a u s e o f a m e d ic a l c o n d i ti o n .

O n w h a t c o n c e i v a b le

b a s is is i t – i s i t – is to p r o p e r – i s i t c o n s o n a n t w i th t h e d i g n i ty o f th is
c o m m i s s io n t o c o m p e l M r Zu m a t o c o m e a n d d o t h is ? A n d in f a c t t h e
id e a t h a t t h e y t h e n i s s u e a m e d i a s t a t e m e n t t e ll in g t h e w o r l d t h a t th a t
h a v e s u m m o n e d Mr Z u m a to c o m e u n d e r t h r e a t o f b e i n g i m p r i s o n e d is
in i ts e l f w r o n g . B u t th a t s a i d p e r h a p s l e t m e t a k e – g o to th e – t o t h e
la s t p a r t o f w h a t t h e C h a i r p e r s o n r a is e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

M a y b e b e f o r e y o u d o s o b e c a u s e I d o n o t w a n t to

f o r g e t Mr M a s u k u . T h e m e d ia s t a t e m e n t w a s s e n t o u t o n m y i n s tr u c t io n
a n d n o t o n th e in s tr u c ti o n o f t h e l e g a l t e a m . W h a t w e – w h a t t h e r u l e s
o f t h e c o m m is s i o n s a y s is th a t I t h i n k i t s a y s fr o m t i m e t o t i m e th e
c o m m i s s io n w il l i n fo r m t h e p u b lic w h a t it w i ll b e h e a r i n g a n d a s y o u
k n o w t h e r e w a s t h e C h r is t m a s b r e a k a n d t h e m e d i a s t a te m e n t w a s n o t
ju s t d e a l in g w i th – th e m e d i a s t a te m e n t w a s s i m p ly d e a li n g w i t h w h a t
w i ll t h e c o m m i s s i o n b e d e a l in g w i t h a s i t r e s u m e s .

I t s a i d i t w il l b e

h e a r in g w it n e s s e s r e l a ti n g t o la w e n fo r c e m e n t a g e n c i e s .

I t s a id i t

w o u ld h e a r a n a p p li c a t io n to b e m o v e d b y t h e le g a l te a m t o s e e k a n
a u t h o r i s a t io n fr o m t h e C h a i r p e r s o n f o r – t o i s s u e s u m m o n s – f o r – t o
20

a u t h o r i s e t h e s e c r e t a r y t o s u m m o n s a g a i n s t th e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t . A s
f a r a s t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t t h a t i s a l l t h a t i t s a i d .

W h a t e v e r e ls e t h e

m e d i a m i g h t h a v e s a i d d o e s n o t – d id n o t c o m e fr o m t h e s ta t e m e n t. S o
it s i m p ly s a id i t w i ll h e a r s o m e w i t n e s s e s r e la t in g t o a c tu a lly M r
T h e m b a M a s e k o ’s is s u e . I t w o u ld h e a r s o m e w i t n e s s e s r e l a ti n g to t h e
Wa t e r k l o o f la n d i n g .

I t w il l h e a r a n a p p l ic a t io n t o b e m o v e d b y t h e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
c o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l t e a m fo r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o a u t h o r is e t h e is s u e o f
summons.

I t d i d n o t s a y a n y th i n g m o r e t h a n t h a t a b o u t t h e f o r m e r

President.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e i m p a c t
o f a m e d ia s t a t e m e n t i n t h o s e te r ms is t h a t t h e r e is a n i n c r e d i b l e
in t e r e s t fr o m t h e p u b lic r e g a r d i n g t h e a p p e a r i n g o f M r Z u m a in v a r i a b ly
e x p o s e s h i m t o i n c r e d i b le a t t a c k s , p o li ti c a l a t t a c k s a n d w e – w h i le y o u
– w h i le t h e C h a ir m a y b e l ie v e t h a t th a t d o e s n o t – th a t s h o u l d n o t
concern him I am saying even the idea it – the Chair must consider an
10

– a p r o c e d u r e t h a t d o e s n o t e x p o s e w i t n e s s e s to t h is k i n d o f a t t a c k s . I
mean if you look at what – what the media and the commentaries on the
m e d i a r e g a r d i n g t h e s u m m o n s y o u w i ll s e e t h a t i t i s a n u n p l e a s a n t
t h i n g . Fo r s o m e o n e w e h a v e t o ld t h e c o m m is s i o n h e is n o t fe e l i n g w e ll
t o l iv e u n d e r th e – t h e t h r e a t t h a t h e w i ll b e f o r c e d t o a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s s io n o f i n q u ir y u n d e r a th r e a t o f b e i n g a r r e s t e d i s – la c k s d ig n i t y
a n d – a n d w h a t w e a r e a s k i n g t h e c o m m i s s i o n t o d o is t h a t w h i l e t h e
c o m m i s s io n – w h il e t h e le a d e r s o f th e c o m m i s s io n – th e le a d e r s o f t h e
le g a l t e a m o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n i s a l a w – a n o b li g a ti o n t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n
t h e y m u s t e x t e n d t o th e Pr e s id e n t – t o t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t t h e

20

p r e s u m p ti o n o f d i g n i ty. W h e n h e s a y s h e i s n o t f e e l in g w e l l h e is n o t –
h e i s n o t p l a y i n g g a m e s w it h th e m . S o I – I – I s ti ll m a i n t a i n t h a t th is
m e d i a s t a te m e n t n e u tr a l a s y o u p u t a s y o u h a v e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : D o e s b e c o m e a p l a t fo r m f o r c o n d e m n i n g
M r Zu m a in p u b li c a n d t h i s g r e a s e s t h e c o m m i s s io n s it t in g i n p u b lic .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u k n o w M r M a s u k u t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t m a y b e
n e c e s s a r y a n d I k n o w t h e m e d ia l i e s i n p e r s o n o f t h e c o m m i s s io n is
in s i d e t h e r o o m t h e y c o u l d e v e n g iv e y o u a c o p y o f th e a c tu a l m e d ia
s t a te m e n t th a t w a s s e n t o u t . Yo u c a n r e f le c t w h a t I a m s a y i n g .
A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U S C : N o C h a i r I a m n o t – I a m n o t c o m p la i n i n g
a b o u t t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e m e d i a s ta t e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : I a c c e p t t h a t t h e m e d i a s ta t e m e n t is w h a t
you have said it is.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

A l l I a m s a y in g is t h a t o n c e th a t

a n n o u n c e m e n t is m a d e y o u m u s t a c c e p t t h a t t h e r e is a n i n c r e d i b le
p u b lic in t e r e s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

T h a t is g e n e r a te d fr o m t h i s p o s i ti o n

t a k e n b y th e l e g a l te a m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

W h i c h is t h a t t h e y a r e g o i n g t o b e

b r i n g i n g t h is a p p l ic a ti o n fo r s u m m o n s .
20

O n e o f w h ic h is t h a t th e

i m p r e s s io n b e in g g iv e n is t h a t i t is n e c e s s a r y t o s u m m o n t o h i m e v e n
w h e n h e i s s i c k o r w h e n h e is n o t f e e li n g w e l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll le t – l e t m e s a y t h a t I – I d o n o t t h i n k t h a t a t th e
ti m e o f t h e is s u in g o f t h e m e d i a s t a t e m e n t th e c o m m is s i o n h a d a l r e a d y
b e e n – h a d b e e n a d v is e d th a t h e w a s n o t w e l l to c o m e t o t h e
c o m m i s s io n o n t h e 2 7 t h .

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A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : Th e r e w a s p r i o r i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t h e h a d
n o t b e e n a b le t o c o m e p r e v i o u s ly b e c a u s e h e w a s n o t w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr e v io u s ly y e s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t d i d n o t m e a n o b v i o u s ly t h a t h e w o u ld n e v e r
b e a b l e t o c o m e . T h e r e w il l n o t b e d a te s in t h e f u t u r e w h e n h e w o u ld
b e a b le t o c o m e . S o w h a t – w h a t I a m s a y in g is in i s s u i n g i t is n o t a s i f
t h e s ta t e m e n t w a s is s u e d i n t h e k n o w l e d g e t h a t f o r t h a t w e e k 2 7 t o 3 1
J u l y h e w o u l d n o t b e a v a il a b l e b e c a u s e o f m e d i c a l c o n d it i o n .
10

A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : B u t y o u s e e i f t h e r e – if t h e r e w a s a – a
r ig o r o u s a d h e r e n c e t o w h a t y o u – w h a t t h e C h a i r s a i d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC: In our last adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U S C : W h ic h is th a t t h e a p p e a r a n c e o f M r Z u m a
w i ll b e a r r a n g e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : W i t h M r Zu m a . T h i s w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n
n e c e s s a r y. B u t t h a t s a i d c a n I – c a n I t h e n – c a n I t h e n j u s t …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U S C : J u s t a d d r e s s y o u o n t h e w a y fo r w a r d t h a t
I – I b e li e v e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o t h a t is f i n e . T h e o n ly r e a s o n I w a n t – I
in t e r r u p t e d y o u w a s j u s t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t
in is s u i n g t h e s t a t e m e n t w e ll o n e t h a t is i f t h e r e i s a n y c r i ti c is m t o b e

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r a i s e d i t n o t a g a in s t t h e l e g a l t e a m , i t i s a g a i n s t m e . B u t – b u t t h a t t h e
s t a te m e n t w a s n o t h i n g m o r e t h a n t o d o w h a t o u r r u l e s s a y t h a t fr o m
ti m e to ti m e w e m u s t t e l l t h e p u b l ic w h a t w e a r e g o in g t o b e b u s y w i th
a n d t h a t t h e s t a t e m e n t w a s n o t in t e n d e d f o r o t h e r th i n g t h a n ju s t t o b e
– to in f o r m t h e p u b l ic . B u t I th in k I a c c e p t t h a t y o u – y o u a c c e p t t h a t
t h e s t a te m e n t w a s n e u tr a l . Yo u r c o n c e r n i s t h a t n e u tr a l a s it m a y h a v e
been once it has been issued it seems to have generated certain
c r i ti c is m o f th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t . I t h i n k t h a t – I h o p e I u n d e r s t a n d y o u
c o r r e c t ly.
10

A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : B e c a u s e w e – w e a r e o f t h e o p i n i o n th a t
t h e p o s i t io n ta k e n b y th e l e g a l te a m o f th e c o m m i s s i o n s u g g e s t th a t th e
P r e s i d e n t – f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t is n o t i n te r e s t e d i n c o m in g t o t h e
c o m m i s s io n a n d c a n o n ly d o s o u n d e r c o m p u l s i o n .

We – we – I am

in s t r u c t e d t o o ff e r t o t h e C h a i r th a t t h e l e a d e r o f t h e m e d ic a l te a m t h a t
is i n v o l v e d in t h e t r e a t m e n t o f M r Zu m a w o u l d b e p r e p a r e d to m e e t w i t h
t h e C h a ir to e x p la in t o th e C h a ir t h e n a t u r e o f th e c o n d i ti o n a n d t h e
c h a l le n g e s t h a t M r Zu m a is fa c i n g a n d d o s o u n d e r v e r y s t r ic t
c o n d i ti o n s o f c o n f i d e n ti a li ty b e c a u s e o f th e n a t u r e o f Pr e s id e n t’s
m e d i c a l c o n d it i o n i s a s e c u r i ty is s u e . A n d n o t u s , n o t t h e le g a l te a m ,
20

n o t a n y b o d y e l s e w o u ld b e i n th a t r o o m w h e r e th e C h a ir w o u l d b e
b r i e f e d o n t h a t a s p e c t . Th a t w e h a v e t o c o m e t o t h i s is u n f o r t u n a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U S C : B u t t h a t s a i d t h a t is w h a t w e h a v e b e e n
in s t r u c t e d t o – t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To o ffe r.

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A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : To o ffe r t h e C h a ir. I k n o w t h a t t h e C h a ir
in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : T h e r e w a s n o t r e q u e s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

F o r Mr Z u m a to – o r t o is s u e a s ic k

c e r t if ic a te t h a t t o o w o u l d b e a s t o n i s h i n g u n d e r t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : W e w i ll a r g u e w h e n w e – w h e n t h e m a t t e r
10

is r i p e f o r h e a r i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

B e c a u s e c le a r ly t h e m a t te r i s r i p e f o r

h e a r in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : W h e th e r o n t h e s o c a l le d a t ta c k s o n t h e
in t e g r i ty o f t h e c o m m is s i o n o r th e le a d e r s o r a n y o f th e f a c t u a l is s u e s .
I t i s n o t r e a d y fo r a r g u m e n t to d a y.

They must prepare a replying

a ffi d a v i t t o s e e – t o r a is e w h a t e v e r is s u e s t h e y w a n t r a is e d , d is p u t e
whatever disputes they want to make. As the Chair suggest they must
20

t h e n a m e n d t h e ir – t h e t a r g e t o f t h e s u m m o n s in te r m s o f t h e d a te s fo r
w h ic h t h e y w a n t t o c o m p e l M r Z u m a to a p p e a r.

I n – i n f a ir n e s s t h e y

c a n n o t a s k fo r a n o r d e r – a n o p e n e n d e d o r d e r t h a t a n y ti m e h e c o m e s
o u t o f h o s p i t a l w h a t e v e r h is c o n d i ti o n is , w h a t e v e r t h e d a t e s a r e h e
m u s t s i m p l y b e – h e m u s t s i m p l y c o m e u n d e r s u m m o n s . I t is j u s t n o t a
– a c o n s ti t u ti o n a lly c o m p li a n t – I m e a n w h e r e is U b u n t u i n a ll t h is ? H e

Page 16 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
is g o in g f o r a n i n te n s iv e m e d i c a l tr e a t m e n t. W h e n h e c o m e s b a c k w e
m u s t b e a r g u i n g a b o u t b r in g in g h i m u n d e r s u m m o n s . S o m e o n e w h o h a s
c le a r ly t o l d t h e c o m m i s s i o n t h a t h e i s g o i n g fo r a m e d i c a l tr e a t m e n t a n d
h e – w h e n h e c o m e s b a c k w h a t d o w e k n o w a b o u t h i s c o n d i ti o n a n d
t h e n t o s u g g e s t t h a t t h e r e is a b a s is o n w h ic h h e s h o u l d b e b r o u g h t
under summons.

B u t w e c a n a r g u e w h e n t h e y – w h e n t h e y f il e th e i r

r e p ly i n g a ff i d a v i t . W e w o u l d o b v io u s ly r e s e r v e o u r r i g h t t o r e s p o n d to
s o m e o f t h e i s s u e s t h a t r a i s e i n t h e i r r e p ly i n g a ffi d a v i t to th e e x te n t
t h a t th e y r a i s e n e w m a t t e r s .
10

W e a r e h a p p y t o d o t h a t.

But as for

t o d a y I a c c e p t t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s p o s i ti o n – th e c o m m i s s i o n ’s
s u g g e s t io n th a t a n – a n d M r Pr e to r i u s ’ c o n c e s s i o n , if it is a c o n c e s s i o n
t h a t i t w o u ld – th e r e w i ll b e n o b a s i s t o a s k fo r s u m m o n s in r e s p e c t o f
t h e s c h e d u l e d d a t e s th a t a r e c o m i n g . T h e y m u s t t h i n k a b o u t d a te s i n
f u t u r e w h i c h – o r t h e C h a ir m u s t t h e n s u g g e s t d a te s a f te r M r Z u m a
c o m e s fr o m m e d ic a l tr e a t m e n t w h i c h d a t e s w il l t h e n – o n c e th e C h a ir
h a s i n d i c a t e d th e d a te t h a t h e p r o p o s e s a f te r M r Z u m a h a s c o m e f r o m
h o s p i ta l w h e n h e w a n ts h i m h e r e t h e m e d ic a l te a m c a n t h e n a m e n d
t h e ir – t h e ir r e l i e f t o r e l a t e t o t h o s e p a r ti c u la r d a t e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Well the –

20

ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

W h y t h a t i s i m p o r ta n t C h a ir i s b e c a u s e

a s i n t h e s e d a t e s w e a r e a b l e t o c o m e a n d t o i n d ic a te t o t h e
c o m m i s s io n th a t h e i s n o t g o i n g t o b e a v a i la b le , h e i s n o t e v e n i n th e
c o u n tr y w h e n t h a t h a p p e n s .

So a summ ons would not be possible to

i m p l e m e n t. As o f t h e f u t u r e d a t e s w h a t i s th e b a s is f o r – fo r s u m m o n s
a ft e r – a f t e r h e c o m e s b a c k fr o m t h e t h in g ? B u t i f t h e y w a n t t o a r g u e

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t h a t t h e y m u s t w a it u n ti l y o u s c h e d u l e d a t e s . T h e y c a n n o t a s k f o r a n
o p e n e n d e d i s s u i n g o f s u m m o n s w i th n o s p e c i f ic d a te s i n m i n d a n d t h e n
w e c a n d e a l w i t h i t o n th a t b a s i s .

Because then we would have to

c o n s u l t t h e P r e s i d e n t o n t h a t ti m e , l o o k a t t h e c i r c u ms t a n c e s t h a t h e
f a c e s a t t h e t i m e a n d d e t e r m i n e w h e th e r o r n o t h e is a b le t o a t te n d . S o
t h a t i s – t h a t i s t h e w a y w e s e e t h e is s u e s g o i n g f o r w a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I j u s t – I th in k I j u s t w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h in g a b o u t
a p o i n t w h i c h is m a d e i n th e a n s w e r in g a ffi d a v i t a n d w h ic h y o u h a v e
a ls o t o u c h e d o n w i t h r e g a r d t o w h a t I s a i d l a s t ti m e n a m e l y t h a t d a te s
10

w o u ld b e a r r a n g e d .
s a y in g s o .
in t e n d e d

T h e a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t d o e s r e fl e c t m e s a y i n g –

I – b u t t h i s is w h a t I c a n s a y.
that

dates

would

P r e s i d e n t ’s l e g a l t e a m fir s t.

have

to

be

I never meant and never
agreed

w i th

the

former

I – I h a d a d e t e r m i n e d th e d a t e s o f J u l y

w h e n t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t a p p e a r e d h e r e m y s e l f a n d t h a t i s w h a t I
h a v e s o u g h t t o d o w h e n e v e r th e fix i n g o f a n y d a te s h a s h a d t o b e d o n e
by me.

B u t e v e n o th e r d a t e s th e y a r e s u g g e s t e d t o m e b y t h e l e g a l

team and I approve. The reason why I would not want to subject myself
t o a c o n d i ti o n t h a t d a te s w o u l d h a v e to b e a g r e e d is b e c a u s e I k n o w t o o
w e ll th e k i n d s o f c h a ll e n g e s t h a t c a n a r i s e w h e n th e a r r a n g e m e n t is
20

t h a t d a te s w o u ld h a v e t o b e a g r e e d .

S o I r e – r e t a i n t o m y s e lf a n d

r e s e r v e t o m y s e l f t h e r i g h t to d e t e r m in e t h e d a te s b u t t h a t d o e s n o t
m e a n t h a t I d o n o t w e l c o m e r e p r e s e n ta ti o n s .

I f f o r e x a m p le I a m

in f o r m e d t h a t t h e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t is n o t g o i n g to b e i n th e c o u n tr y fo r
t h e n e x t f o u r w e e k s y o u k n o w I a m n o t g o i n g t o d e t e r m i n e a d a t e w i th in
those four weeks so – because of those representations. But I do not

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
w a n t t o s a y h e w i ll n o t b e r e q u i r e d t o c o m e t o t h e c o m m is s i o n u n le s s
the dates have been agreed.

I h a v e n o t d o n e i t w i t h o t h e r w i tn e s s e s

s i m p l y f o r – f o r t h e r e a s o n t h a t i t c r e a t e s c h a l le n g e s a n d b e c a u s e t h e r e
a r e s o m a n y p e o p l e w h o h a v e c o m e t o c o m e t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n if w e
w e r e t o h a v e t o a g r e e d a t e s w i t h th e m b e c a u s e t h e y m i g h t s a y w e l l y o u
a r e a g r e e i n g d a t e s w it h th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w h y d o y o u n o t w a n t t o
agree dates with us.
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC: Accepted.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I t c o u ld c r e a t e l o g is t ic a l p r o b l e ms .

S o t h a t is th e

o n ly r e a s o n . S o – s o t h e o n ly r e a s o n w h y I – I t h i n k t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t I
m a y h a v e u s e d t h e w o r d a r r a n g e d th e o n ly r e a s o n – t h e o n l y t h in g I c a n
t h i n k o f i s I m a y h a v e b e e n t h i n k i n g o f a r r a n g e d w i t h i n th e c o m m is s i o n
a s o p p o s e d t o a g r e e d w i th t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t’s le g a l te a m . S o – s o
t h a t i s t h e o n ly c la r i fi c a t io n th a t I w is h to m a k e . A n d w h e n I d o s o I a m
not saying that you are bound to understand what I said in the same
w a y t h a t I a m e x p l a in in g i t I a m j u s t s a y in g i t .
A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U S C :

N o C h a ir w e a r e b o u n d b y y o u r

e x p l a n a t io n . W e w o u ld n o t i g n o r e w h a t y o u – w h a t y o u – b e c a u s e w e –
a s I s ta r t e d a t t h e b e g in n in g w e e x t e n d …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : T h e p r e s u m p ti o n o f i n te g r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

W h e n y o u t e ll u s t h a t t h a t i s w h a t y o u

meant.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : T h a t is – w e m u s t u n e q u iv o c a l ly a c c e p t
that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o , n o t h a n k y o u .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC: But I accept too…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

I a m c o m f o r t e d to o b y t h e f a c t t h a t th e

C h a ir a c c e p t s t h a t t h e – th e r u l in g w a s o p e n t o u s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : B e li e v in g th a t w e w e r e e n ti tl e d to b e to ld
10

fir s tly t h a t t h e s e a r e th e d a t e s th a t w e a r e t h i n k i n g o f .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : Is i t – i s i t c o n v e n i e n t f o r y o u t o a t te n d
or is not convenient for you to attend.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : T h a t is h o w w e u n d e r s t o o d t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: The statement.
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : T h e r u l in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U S C : B u t n o w t h a t i t h a s b e e n m a d e c l e a r w e
20

a c c e p t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : T h a t is t h e p o s i t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : A n d w e c a n t a k e i t n o fu r t h e r th a n t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o , n o t h a t is …

Page 20 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : S o in l ig h t o f th a t c l a r i f ic a ti o n o f c o u r s e
t h e y m a y r e f l e c t i t i n th e i r r e p ly i n g a ff id a v i t th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

T h a t t h e c la r i fic a ti o n w a s m a d e a t t h e

h e a r in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

Of this.

T h i s is c e r t a i n l y n o t h o w w e

understood.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
10

A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U S C :

C e r ta i n ly n o t h o w w e h a v e – w e h a v e

in t e r a c te d w i t h t h e – w i t h th e l e g a l te a m o f th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : W e h a v e i n d ic a t e d t o th e m t h a t
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : W e b e li e v e t h a t th e – t h e r e w a s a r u li n g
that we must…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A B A N I M A S U K U S C :

Agree on the dates or at least arrange

t h e d a t e s in c o n c e r t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : A n d n o t u n il a te r a l d e c is i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : B u t y o u h a v e m a d e t h a t c le a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o , n o .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC: We appreciate that.

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is fi n e .

No thank you.

I t h i n k m a y b e I s h o u ld

a l lo w M r P r e to r i u s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I f h e h a s g o t s o m e th in g t o s a y b u t i t m a y b e t h a t a f te r
h e h a s s a i d w h a t h e w is h e s t o s a y w e s h o u l d a d j o u r n fo r a f e w m i n u t e s
and maybe counsel on both sides can see me in chambers and we can
t a lk a b o u t t h e w a y f o r w a r d .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : A s t h e C h a ir p l e a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : P e r h a p s fo r t h e r e c o r d i t is n e c e s s a r y t o
c la r i fy t h e p o s i t io n fr o m t h e le g a l t e a m ’ s p o i n t o f v ie w.

We learnt

y e s t e r d a y a t f o u r o ’ c l o c k o f t h e m e d ic a l c o n d it i o n o f M r Z u m a . W e d o
n o t p e r s i s t in s e e k i n g s u m m o n s fo r t h e d a te s d i c ta t e d b y y o u C h a ir a t
2 7 J a n u a r y b u t w e w il l s e e k t h e is s u e o f s u m m o n s f o r a la t e r d a t e t h a t
is a p p r o p r ia t e . In r e l a ti o n t o t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h e th e r w e s h o u l d g o o n
r e c o r d i n a n a n s w e r i n g a ff i d a v i t i t is c le a r l y o u r p o s i ti o n th a t b e f o r e th e
m a t t e r i s a r g u e d w e s h o u ld g o o n a ffi d a v i t to d e a l w i th t h e v a r io u s
m a t t e r s r a is e d i n th e a n s w e r i n g a ff id a v i t w h ic h w o u l d r e q u ir e a
p o s tp o n e m e n t . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y I t h i n k w e – w e w i ll t a k e a n a d j o u r n m e n t n o w

a n d I w i ll i n v it e c o u n s e l o n b o t h s i d e s t o s e e m e i n c h a m b e r s s o t h a t
w e c a n d i s c u s s t h e w a y f o r w a r d – t h e p r a c t ic a li t ie s th a t n e e d to b e
d is c u s s e d o n th e w a y f o r w a r d a n d a f t e r t h a t t h e n w e w i ll r e s u m e . S o I
w i ll a d j o u r n f o r t h a t p u r p o s e n o w.

We adjourn.

R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
MEETING ADJOURNS
HEARING RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r P r e t o r i u s .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir f o l lo w in g o n t h e m e e t i n g i n

c h a m b e r s m a y w e a s k y o u t o d ir e c t t h a t th e fi r s tl y t h e r e p ly in g a ff id a v i t
b e f il e d o n o r b e f o r e c l o s e o f b u s i n e s s o n Fr i d a y 2 4 J a n u a r y a n d t h a t
t h e a p p li c a t io n – th e p r e s e n t a p p lic a ti o n b e a d j o u r n e d to a d a t e t o b e
arranged? Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h e c o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m w il l d e li v e r a r e p l y i n g

a ffi d a v i t o n o r b e f o r e c l o s e o f b u s i n e s s o n F r i d a y t h e 2 4 J a n u a r y. T h a t
is o n e .

W i t h r e g a r d t o w h a t i s g o i n g t o h a p p e n i n r e g a r d t o th is

a p p lic a ti o n a n d t h e f u r t h e r a p p e a r a n c e b e fo r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n o f t h e
f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w h a t h a s b e e n a g r e e d in t h e d i s c u s s io n i n v o lv i n g
m y s e l f a n d c o u n s e l o n b o t h s i d e s is t h a t t h i s a p p li c a t io n i s t o b e
a d j o u r n e d t o a d a te t o b e a r r a n g e d a n d I h a s te n to s a y a r r a n g e d d o e s
n o t m e a n a g r e e d . T h a t is o n e .
2 . I h a v e a c c e p te d w i t h s o m e r e lu c ta n c e b u t I h a v e a c c e p t e d th e o ff e r
m a d e b y t h e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t t h a t t h e le a d e r o f h is m e d ic a l t e a m
s h o u l d s e e m e a n d in c o n f i d e n c e c o n v e y t o m e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t m a y
20

a s s is t i n u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h e m e d i c a l r e a s o n s r e la t in g to h is f a i lu r e to
a p p e a r a t s o m e s ta g e i n t h e p a s t b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n a s w e l l a s
in f o r m a ti o n r e la t in g to th e fu t u r e c o n c e r n i n g u p t o w h e n h e mi g h t n o t
f o r m e d ic a l r e a s o n s b e a b le t o a p p e a r b e fo r e t h e c o m m is s i o n t o g i v e
e v i d e n c e a n d w h e n t h e r e w o u l d b e n o m e d ic a l r e a s o n s f o r h i m n o t t o
a p p e a r. I t h a s b e e n a c c e p t e d th a t w i t h r e g a r d t o th is 2 7 to t h e 2 0 – to

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
t h e 3 1 J a n u a r y t h e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t n e e d n o t a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s s io n b e c a u s e o f t h e m e d ic a l r e a s o n s t h a t h e h a s g iv e n .

The

c o n s u l t a ti o n o r m e e ti n g t h a t th e l e a d e r o f h i s m e d ic a l t e a m w il l h a v e
w i t h m e w il l – it is h o p e d a s s is t i n l o o k i n g a t d a t e s w h e n h is m e d i c a l
c o n d i ti o n w o u l d n o t p r e v e n t h i m f r o m a p p e a r i n g b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s i o n .
S o t h i s a p p l ic a ti o n w il l t h e n s t a n d a d j o u r n e d t o a d a t e t h a t w il l b e
a r r a n g e d a t t h e r ig h t ti m e . N o w b e fo r e w e fi n a l is e I j u s t w a n t t o c h e c k
w i t h M r P r e t o r iu s a n d M r M a s u k u w h e th e r I h a v e c o v e r e d e v e r y t h i n g
t h a t n e e d s to b e s a i d p u b l ic l y t h a t w e d is c u s s e d . M r Pr e t o r i u s .
10

A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. M r M a s u k u .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC: No, no Chair you have – you have missed
one point – one aspect.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC:

W h i c h is t h a t M r Zu m a h a s in d ic a t e d

u n e q u iv o c a l ly h i s w il li n g n e s s t o a p p e a r b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A B A N I M A S U K U S C : T h a t is a v e r y i m p o r ta n t a s p e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , y e s .

Thank you.

Counsel for Mr Zuma has

e m p h a s is e d t h a t Mr Z u m a r e p e a ts h is c o m m i t m e n t t o a p p e a r b e f o r e t h i s
c o m m i s s io n a n d a n s w e r s u c h q u e s t io n s a s t h e c o m m is s i o n m a y w is h to
put to him.
ADV THABANI MASUKU SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

W i t h t h a t t h e n t h e a p p li c a t io n is

a d j o u r n e d a n d a n o t h e r d a t e w il l b e a r r a n g e d i n d u e c o u r s e .

Page 24 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : M a y w e a d jo u r n f o r t h e n e x t w i tn e s s to b e
prepared?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I a m g o i n g t o t a k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t a n d w e
w i ll r e s u m e a t t w e n ty f iv e t o tw e lv e .
A D V PA U L P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw e n ty fiv e t o t w e lv e j a . W e a d jo u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g Ms N o r m a n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Good …
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Good

morning

M r C h a ir m a n .

M r C h a ir m a n , t h i s m o r n in g w e c o n ti n u i n g o n t h e Wa t e r k l o o f e v i d e n c e
and

we

wish

to

call

-

to

lead

the

e v id e n c e

of

Colonel

-

L i e u t e n a n t- C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n . S h e is r e p r e s e n t e d . M r G r i e s e l is h e r e .
M a y h e j u s t p l a c e h i ms e lf o n r e c o r d ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
A D V J E A N G R I E S E L : M o r n in g M r C h a ir. M y n a m e is …
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
ADV JEAN GRIESEL:

My name is Jean Griesel.

L i e u t e n a n t- C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n .

Page 25 of 155

I a m r e p r e s e n ti n g

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. B e f o r e y o u
w e h a d p la c e d E X H I B I T F F 1 4 . T h a t - t h a t e x h i b it n u m b e r is i n c o r r e c t
C h a ir. W e h a v e s i n c e c h a n g e d it t o E X H I B I T F F 1 5 , b u t w e d id n o t w a n t
t o d o s o w i t h o u t y o u r le a v e . S i n c e y o u h a v e h a n d l e d t h e fi le a lr e a d y. I
- I b e g l e a v e t o h a n d u p a n d t h e n t h e R e g is t r a r w i ll a f te r t h e h e a r i n g
replace 14 - yes. Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M a y t h e a ff id a v i ts o f

M s C h r is ti n a A n d e r s o n b e a d m i t t e d a s E X H I B I T F F 1 5 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t o g e t h e r w i t h a ll t h e a n n e x u r e s ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

To g e th e r w i t h a ll t h e a n n e x u r e s .

Ye s

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e t h e r e t w o a ff id a v i ts h e r e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. I n f a c t th e o n e is a n a n n e x u r e ,
b e c a u s e i t is a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t s h e m a d e b e f o r e t h e B o a r d o f I n q u ir y.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y.

The

a ffi d a v i t

of

Colonel Anderson

-

C h r is t in e A n d e r s o n w i ll b e a d m i t te d a n d m a r k e d a s E X H I B I T F F 1 5 - 1 - 5
- t o g e t h e r w i t h i ts a n n e x u r e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir, o n e o th e r a s p e c t .
C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n h a d i n d ic a te d t h a t s h e is c o m f o r ta b l e t e s t i fy i n g in

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
E n g l is h , b u t s h e d o e s s o m e t i m e s w is h t o h a v e - t o - t o j u s t m e n t io n
c e r t a i n w o r d s i n A f r i k a a n s a n d f o r th a t r e a s o n w e a r r a n g e d M s Wa ll is
w h o i s a q u a li f ie d i n te r p r e t e r to a s s is t C h a ir. S h e is s e a te d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N e x t t o t h e w i t n e s s . Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . F o r th e r e c o r d M s Wa ll is - th e in t e r p r e te r - h a s
b e e n s w o r n in …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s w e ll .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y t h e - t h e w i tn e s s b e
s w o r n i n C h a ir ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Pl e a s e a d m in is t e r t h e - a n a ff ir m a t io n o r a n

oath.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O r t h e o a th .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
20

C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : C h r is ti n a M a g d a l e n a A n d e r s o n .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
COLONEL ANDERSON: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , th e w h o le tr u th a n d n o t h in g b u t th e t r u th ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
REGISTRAR:

If so please raise your right hand and say so help me

God.
COLONEL ANDERSON: So help me God.
COLONEL ANDERSON: (duly sworn, states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Colonel Anderson in

fr o n t o f y o u - y o u h a v e a b u n d l e t h a t i s m a r k e d E X H I B I T F F 1 5 . I f y o u
t u r n t o p a g e 1 o f t h a t t h e r e is a n a ff id a v it a n d c o u l d y o u j u s t tu r n to
p a g e 8 . S o s o r r y. Yo u r s i g n a t u r e a p p e a r s a t p a g e - I b e g y o u r p a r d o n .
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : E ig h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: At page 7. I beg your pardon.
COLONEL ANDERSON: Page 7.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Is th a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is s o .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Is t h a t t h e a ffi d a v i t th a t w a s p r e p a r e d f o r

y o u o n y o u r b e h a l f b y y o u r le g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s ?
20

C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s . I t is .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h e c o n t e n ts o f

t h a t a ffi d a v i t - th e c o n te n ts a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s . I t is .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
t h e r e is a d iv id e r.

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n o v e r th e p a g e

Th e r e is a n o t h e r a ffi d a v i t t h a t s t a r ts f r o m p a g e 9 .

Page 28 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
Do you see that?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s . I d o .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h a t a ffi d a v i t y o u r s i g n a tu r e a p p e a r s

at page 1-5 - 15.
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t a l s o y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s . I t is m y s ig n a tu r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is th a t a n a ffi d a v i t th a t y o u h a d s u b m i tt e d
t o t h e B o a r d o f I n q u ir y …
10

C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s . ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h ic h w a s h e ld b y th e D e f e n c e F o r c e ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s C h a ir. I d i d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u a n d y o u a ls o c o n f ir m t h e
c o n te n ts th e r e o f t o b e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h e a n n e x u r e s a tt a c h e d t h e r e to a r e

t h e a n n e x u r e s t h a t y o u h a d p la c e d to t h o s e a ff id a v i ts i n s u p p o r t o f y o u r
evidence?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s C h a ir.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h a n k y o u . C o u ld y o u
ju s t f o r th e r e c o r d p la c e o n r e c o r d y o u r q u a l if ic a ti o n s p l e a s e ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : My r e c o r d - m y - m y q u a l i fic a ti o n s o r my … ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u r - y o u r - n o . Yo u c a n d o b o th . C a r e e r
or your …
CHAIRPERSON: Or your work experience.

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : My c a r e e r ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u r e x p e r ie n c e . Ye s .
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir I j o i n e d t h e A ir F o r c e i n 1 9 7 6 .

Where

a ft e r I d i d m y b a s i c tr a i n i n g , m y O ff ic e r ’s F o r m i n g C o u r s e a n d th e
J u n i o r S t a ff C o u r s e . I a t t e n d e d t o - I w a s t r a n s f e r r e d to v a r i o u s u n i ts
in th e A ir Fo r c e in w h ic h 1 9 - I - I f in is h e d m y c a r e e r a t A ir F o r c e B a s e
Wa t e r k l o o f a n d th e n I w a s p u t o n s p e c ia l l e a v e f o r tw o y e a r s i n w h ic h I
10

r e tir e d i n 2 0 1 4 , b u t I u s e d my t i m e w h il e I w a s o n s p e c i a l l e a v e w is e ly
a n d s t a r t e d s t u d y i n g p s y c h o l o g y a n d I a m c u r r e n tl y b u s y w i t h m y
Honours.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

C o u ld y o u ju s t t e l l t h e C h a ir

w h ic h y e a r s w e r e y o u b a s e d a t th e Wa t e r k l o o f A ir Fo r c e B a s e ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : I s t a r t e d a t Ai r F o r c e B a s e W a t e r k l o o f a t - a s
t h e B a s e O p s O ff ic e r in 2 0 0 4 .

W h e r e a f t e r I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o

M o v e m e n ts fr o m 2 0 - 2 0 0 8 ti ll I fi n i s h e d m y c a r e e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d w h a t a r e t h e d u ti e s o f s o m e o n e

w h o i s p la c e d a t M o v e m e n t s ?
20

C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : I w a s t h e r e a s th e Ac t in g O ff ic e r in c h a r g e o f
M o v e m e n ts C o n tr o l .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Now you are - you came - you

s u b m i tt e d y o u r s t a t e m e n t in r e s p o n s e t o a 3 . 3 N o ti c e t h a t w a s is s u e d
a n d i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s S i n d a n e w h e r e t h e J C P S R e p o r t
w a s a t t a c h e d . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?

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C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d i n y o u r s t a te m e n t to th e C o m m i s s io n
y o u r e s p o n d e d to s o m e o f t h e a ll e g a t io n s c o n t a i n e d t h e r e i n .
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : I d id .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w it h t h a t , b u t i f
y o u d o n o t m in d .

C o u l d y o u j u s t t e ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n , b e c a u s e t h e

c r i ti c a l th in g a s y o u k n o w is t h e W a te r k lo o f l a n d i n g - a g - t h e J e t
A ir w a y s l a n d i n g a t t h e W a te r k l o o f f o r - A ir Fo r c e B a s e . C o u l d y o u ju s t
t e ll t h e C h a ir h o w d i d th a t c o m e a b o u t ?
10

H o w d id y o u k n o w t h a t t h e r e w a s a n a ir c r a f t t h a t w a s g o i n g t o
la n d a t t h e W a t e r k l o o f A ir F o r c e B a s e w h i c h w a s a c o m m e r c i a l a i r c r a ft
a n d n o t fr o m t h e D e f e n c e Fo r c e ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir,

it

was

during

the

end

of

M a r c h / b e g in n in g o f A p r il 2 0 1 3 t h a t I g o t a t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s - a
t e l e p h o n e c a l l fr o m A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e w h ic h w a s t h e C h i e f D ir e c t o r
o f S t a t e P r o to c o l a n d h e w a n t e d t o k n o w - it w a s l a te i n th e e v e n in g . I t
w a s a b o u t 9 o ’ c l o c k . I r e m e m b e r I w a s s ti ll i n b e d - a n d h e s a i d to m e .
20

H e w a n t e d t o k n o w w h e t h e r a n A ir b u s 3 3 0 c o u l d b e - w il l b e
a b l e t o l a n d a t A ir Fo r c e B a s e W a t e r k lo o f . I s a i d to - h e fir s t w a n t e d to
k n o w i f a n a i r c r a ft .

I s a id w h a t ty p e o f a ir c r a f t a n d h e s a i d i t is a n

A ir b u s 3 3 0 . I s a i d y e s . I t is p o s s ib l e a n d t h e w a y I - w h y I s a i d it i s
p o s s i b le is b e c a u s e w e c a n a c c o m m o d a t e a n a ir c r a f t o f t h a t s i z e i n
t e r m s o f a ll th e g r o u n d s u p p o r t e q u ip m e n t t h a t w e h a v e a n d I

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
m e n ti o n e d t o h i m t h a t a l t h o u g h w e w il l h a v e t o s t ill h a v e t h e o v e r f li g h t
c le a r a n c e fr o m th e A ir F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t a n d h e s a i d t h a t h e w i ll
then process - continue with the procedure.
CHAIRPERSON: Just one second …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Colonel Anderson.

Th e a ir c o n d i ti o n e r i f i t c o u ld b e

r e d u c e d a b it . I t is - it s e e m s t h a t i ts n o is y …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F o r th e n o is e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i n te r f e r in g . Ye s . Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e .
10

C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h e n h e p h o n e d m e a g a i n a n d s a i d to m e t h a t
h e i s g o i n g t o s e n d t h e A d v a n c e Te a m o f t h e d e l e g a ti o n t o u s f o r a s it e
v is it . T h a t v is it t o o k p la c e o n 2 A p r i l . A M r As h u c - I w a s in tr o d u c e d to
h i m a s Mr A s h u c .

I a m n o t s u r e i f i t i s h is n a m e o r h i s s u r n a m e a n d

a n o t h e r g e n tl e m a n c a m e t o t h e b a s e a n d w e - th e y d is c u s s e d w i t h m e
t h a t th e a ir c r a f t is g o in g to a r r iv e … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Before you proceed.

Wa s i t n o r m a l p r a c t ic e t h a t if

t h e r e w a s to b e a n a ir c r a f t t h a t w a s g o i n g t o la n d t h e r e .

A team be

s e n t fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f I n te r n a l - I n t e r n a t io n a l R e la t io n s t o m a k e
a n y i n s p e c ti o n s - c o n d u c t a n y in s p e c t io n s ? W a s t h a t n o r m a l p r a c ti c e ?
20

C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t - t h a t i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n ti n u e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Th e n th e y e x p la i n e d t o m e t h a t i t w a s g o i n g to

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b e 2 0 0 - 1 5 0 t o 2 0 0 p a s s e n g e r s a n d t h e y w a n t e d t o k n o w - t h e y w a n te d
to have a - a breakfast for the people.

S o I e x p l a in e d t o th e m o u r

f a c i li t ie s w il l n o t b e a b l e to a c c o m m o d a t e th a t n u m b e r o f p e o p l e .

I

s u g g e s t t h a t th e y c o n t a c t t h e o ff ic e r s ’ m e s s a c r o s s t h e r o a d t o s e e if
they can arrange that.
S o h e e x p la i n e d t o m e n o . It i s n o t a s i t d o w n b r e a k f a s t . I t
w i ll b e c o ff e e a n d te a a n d t h e n j u s t s n a c k s .

I a ls o e x p la in e d t o h i m

t h a t t h e t w o lo u n g e s w e h a d - th e I P L o u n g e a n d t h e V I P L o u n g e w o u ld n o t b e a b le to a c c o m m o d a t e t h a t n u m b e r o f p e o p le . S o h e s a id
10

b u t le t u s j u s t l o o k a t t h e f a c il i ty.
S o w e w e n t th r o u g h th e f a c il i ty a n d a d j a c e n t to th e t w o
lo u n g e s is a r e c e p t i o n a r e a a n d h e w a n t e d t o k n o w i f th e y w il l a l s o b e
a b l e t o u s e t h a t r e c e p t io n a r e a a n d I s a i d t o h i m t h a t is n o t a p r o b l e m
a n d - b e c a u s e th e n w e w il l b e a b le t o a c c o m m o d a t e . T h a t w a s th e v is i t
o n t h e 2 n d a n d t h e n I h a d a n o th e r …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
v is it .

M a y b e b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d to a n o t h e r

L e t u s d e a l w i th M s - M r A s h u c .

W h e n w e h a d a c o n s u l t a ti o n

y e s t e r d a y I h a d s h o w n y o u s o m e e m a ils t h a t y o u h a d e x c h a n g e d w i th
h i m a n d I w a n t e d to k n o w w h a t h i s s u r n a m e w a s . W h a t - w h a t w a s h is
20

surname?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : I w a s i n t r o d u c e d t o h i m a s M r A s h u c , b u t l a te r
I fo u n d o u t t h a t h i s s u r n a m e w a s C h a w l a o r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a w la .
COLONEL ANDERSON:

Chawla - Chawla - Chawla.

that …

Page 33 of 155

S o m e t h i n g li k e

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
COLONEL ANDERSON:

B u t I - I t h o u g h t h is n a m e - h is s u r n a m e w a s

A s h u c . I - I c a ll e d h i m M r A s h u c .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
t h a t m e e ti n g .

Ye s .

Thank you.

B e f o r e y o u d e a l w it h

C h a ir j u s t t o p u t t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e - i t is fr o m F F 5

C h a ir. T h a t m a y n o t h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t , b u t t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t ju s t t o
g iv e th e r e f e r e n c e .
hand

these

up

to

It - i t is p a g e 0 - 6 - 1 o f E X H I B I T F F 5 .
th e

witness?

She

had

w r it t e n

M a y I ju s t
-

she

had

correspondence exchange between herself and some …
10

COLONEL ANDERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Mr A s h u c C h a w la .

I beg your pardon.

P a g e 6 1 . I b e g y o u r p a r d o n . C a n y o u s e e th a t ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Is t h a t t h e e m a i l?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h o s e n t t h a t e m a i l?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : I t c a m e fr o m m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d y o u c o p i e d h i m ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
COLONEL ANDERSON: Ashuc.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ashuc.

It - it says.

Yo u c a l l it A s h u c

b e c a u s e S - A - c o u ld y o u j u s t s p e l l i t f o r t h e r e c o r d .
COLONEL ANDERSON: A-S-H-U-C.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n w h a t is t h e e m a il a d d r e s s i n f u ll ?

Page 34 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h e e m a il a d d r e s s is a s h u c 111 @ g m a i l. c o m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Is th a t t h e p e r s o n th a t y o u w e r e

li a is i n g w i t h ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t w a s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D i d h e t e l l y o u w h o h e r e p r e s e n te d ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : N o . N o . H e d i d n o t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d w h o d id y o u t h i n k h e w a s ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

I was under the impression that he was a

P r o t o c o l O ff ic e r fr o m D I R C O .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d is t h a t w h a t y o u s ti ll b e l i e v e

today?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s . I w o u l d s a y. I s ti ll b e l ie v e t h a t h e w a s I - I t h o u g h t h e w a s t h e P r o t o c o l O ff ic e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w l e t u s j u s t t h e n m o v e o n . O th e r
than

Mr Ashuc.

a r r a n g e m e n ts ?

Who

e ls e

did

you

deal

O t h e r t h a n y o u r o ff ic ia l s t a ff.

w i th

in

making

up

Any other person from

o u t s i d e t h a t y o u d e a l t w i t h i n s e t t in g u p a r r a n g e m e n ts ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir,

the

o n ly

other

person

was

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
the

meeting

-

the

Ye s a n d t h e n y o u w e r e g o i n g t o m o v e t o

second

m e e ti n g

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e .
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: President.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m - I a m s o r r y.

Page 35 of 155

th a t

you

had

with

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s N o r m a n to in t e r r u p t y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Chawla.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a w la .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u l e d t h e e v i d e n c e o f S u n d a r a m . D i d - d i d y o u n o t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I d i d . Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I h a d o c c a s i o n to h a v e a lo o k a t h i s s t a t e m e n t

r e c e n t ly.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: I seem to think - I may be wrong - that he - he said
s o m e w h e r e i n h is s t a t e m e n t t h a t th e p e r s o n w h o a c t e d a s th e l ia is in g
person between …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e Pr e s id e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m s e l v e s a n d t h e Pr e s id e n t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e P r e s i d e n c y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h ic h o n e .

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s C h a w la .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n a s w e ll ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a t i s t h e s a m e p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

I t i s ju s t t h a t t h e w i t n e s s i n h e r

s t a te m e n t s h e s a y s As h o o k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W i th a n A - S- H - O - O - K .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t is th e s a m e p e r s o n . T h a n k y o u . T h e n

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e j u s t - a s y o u w o u l d h a v e l is t e n e d to - t o h is
e v i d e n c e . A m I c o r r e c t C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n ? W e d o n o t h a v e to g o i n to
d e t a i ls a b o u t w h a t tr a n s p ir e d b e t w e e n y o u r s e l v e s .
COLONEL ANDERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
r e l e v a n t.

O n ly t o t h e e x te n t t h a t y o u r r o le is

H e h a s a lr e a d y t e s ti fi e d b e fo r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n , b u t c o u l d

y o u t h e n t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n a b o u t a m e e ti n g w h e r e h e w a s p r e s e n t a t
20

t h e Wa t e r k l o o f B a s e ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

T h a t m e e t i n g t o o k p la c e o n

2 2 A p r il .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

J u s t b r i n g t h e m ic a l i t tl e c l o s e t o y o u .

M a y b e th a t w il l h e lp a s w e ll .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.

Page 37 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e o n 2 2 A p r il . W e w e n t
t h r o u g h th e a r r iv a l p r o c e d u r e s w i t h h i m a s w e ll a s th e - i t w a s M r A s h u c
a n d tw o o r t h r e e o th e r g e n tl e m e n a n d w e - I b a s ic a l ly w e n t t h r o u g h
t h e m w i t h th e a r r iv a l p r o c e d u r e a n d th e n t h e d e p a r t u r e p r o c e d u r e
a g a in .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a t i s w i t h A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e ?
COLONEL ANDERSON: Ambassador Koloane.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h o e ls e w a s p r e s e n t ?
10

C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Mr A s h u c w a s a ls o p r e s e n t C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A t t h is m e e ti n g - a t t h e t i m e th a t y o u
h a d t h e m e e t in g o n 2 2 A p r i l h a d y o u r e c e i v e d a n y a u t h o r i s a t io n s fo r t h e
la n d i n g o f th e a ir c r a f t ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

N o s ir - C h a ir.

I a ls o m e n ti o n e d a t t h a t

m e e ti n g to t h e A m b a s s a d o r t h a t w e c a n p r o c e e d w i t h t h e a r r iv a l a n d t h e
departure procedures.

Pr o v id e d w e g e t t h e o v e r fl i g h t c le a r a n c e ,

b e c a u s e a t t h a t s t a g e w e s ti ll d i d n o t h a v e t h e o v e r fl ig h t c le a r a n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d th e n w h e n d i d y o u g e t t h o s e ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : I g o t t h a t o n t h e 2 3 r d . Th e f o l lo w i n g d a y.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A f te r t h e n y o u - i s t h e p r o c e s s th e n
o f y o u g e tt i n g th e - t h e c l e a r a n c e - w a s - d i d i t h a p p e n b e f o r e y o u h a d
a c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h M a j o r N ts h is i o r d id it h a p p e n t h e r e a f te r ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir

I

had

the

c o n v e r s a ti o n

w i th

Wa r r a n t O ffi c e r N ts h is i o n 9 A p r i l a n d I g o t th e c le a r a n c e o n 2 3 A p r il .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Yo u h a v e l is t e n e d - a m I c o r r e c t - t o

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
the recordings between your conversation and Ambassador Koloane
a n d y o u r c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h M a j o r N ts h i s i.

F o r th e r e c o r d d o y o u

d is p u te a n y t h i n g t h a t is r e c o r d e d th e r e i n ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : N o C h a ir. I d o n o t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C h a ir th o s e a r e c o n t a in e d i n

E X H I B I T F F 1 3 A a n d t h e w i t n e s s w a s - w a s - d e a l t w i t h th o s e y e s t e r d a y.
Ye s .

Thank you and in respect of both witnesses you do not dispute

t h e r e c o r d a ls a s b e i n g c o r r e c t ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : I d o n o t d is p u t e i t . I t i s c o r r e c t .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Thank you.

N o w - t h e n a f te r t h e n

y o u r e c e iv e d n o w t h e - t h e a p p r o v a ls . W h a t w a s t h e n e x t s te p ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : W e n o r m a l ly h a v e a b r i e f i n g t h e d a y b e f o r e t h e
a r r iv a l o f th e a ir c r a f t w i t h th e p e r s o n n e l t o e x p l a i n t o th e m w h a t ti m e
t h e a ir c r a f t w i ll b e a r r iv i n g . W h a t p r o c e d u r e s m u s t b e f o ll o w e d in t e r m s
o f g r o u n d s u p p o r t e q u i p m e n t , b a g g a g e h a n d li n g a n d t h e a r r iv a l o f th e
passengers?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d a t w h a t ti m e th e n d id th e a ir c r a f t
la n d ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Th e a ir c r a f t l a n d e d - th e fir s t a ir c r a f t ? Th e 20

t h e A ir b u s ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e A ir b u s . Ye s .
COLONEL ANDERSON:

T h a t a ir c r a f t la n d e d s h o r tl y a ft e r e i g h t t h a t

m o r n in g .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h e - w h a t e ls e - w h o e ls e la n d e d

there on that - on that day?

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
COLONEL ANDERSON:

W e a l s o h a d o v e r f li g h t c l e a r a n c e s f o r t w o

fi x e d w i n g a ir c r a f t a s w e ll a s s i x h e l ic o p t e r s t h a t w a s - t h a t f e r r i e d f r o m
wherever to Waterkloof.

Fe r r y m e a n s t h e y c a m e to Wa t e r k l o o f e m p ty

a n d a t o n e o f t h e m e e ti n g s A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e - h e p h o n e d m e a n d
h e s a i d t h a t th e o r i g i n a l a r r a n g e m e n t w a s t h a t th e p a s s e n g e r s w e r e
g o i n g t o b e tr a n s p o r t e d t o S u n C i t y w i t h a b u s a n d v e h i c l e s a n d t h e n h e
p h o n e d a n d s a i d b u t th e r e is g o i n g t o b e t w o f ix e d w i n g a ir c r a f t a n d
n i n e h e l ic o p t e r s t h a t is n o w g o in g to t a k e s o m e o f th e p a s s e n g e r s t o
S u n - to - t o S u n C i ty.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

It

is

not

an

is s u e

that

A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e c o n v e y e d to y o u t h a t th e r e w e r e g o i n g to b e
M i n is t e r s o n t h a t a ir c r a f t - o n th e b i g a ir c r a ft . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

I t - it is n o t u n u s u a l .

C h a ir, I m u s t s t a te t o

y o u t h a t t h e r e w a s a v e r y p r o f e s s i o n a l r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n m y s e lf a n d
A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e a n d w e c o m m u n ic a t e d m u l ti p l e t i m e s o n v a r io u s
fl ig h ts . S o i t w a s n o t s t r a n g e t h a t h e m e n ti o n e d to m e t h a t t h e r e w ill
b e M i n i s te r s o n b o a r d t h a t a ir c r a f t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e n c o m e s t h e m o r n in g o f t h e

3 0 t h w h e n t h e a ir c r a f t l a n d e d . D i d y o u s e e a n y M i n is te r s ?
20

COLONEL ANDERSON:

W e tr i e d t o g e t a li s t C h a ir o f a l l th e

P r e s i d e n t ’s n a m e s . W e n e v e r g o t h o ld o f t h a t a n d w e a ls o d i d n o t k n o w
w h e t h e r t h e M in is t e r s w e r e m a l e s o r f e m a l e s . S o M r As h u c w e n t t o t h e
a ir c r a f t o n c e i t w a s p a r k e d a n d w h a t n o r m a l ly h a p p e n s i s h e w i ll
in tr o d u c e th e V I P s t o t h e p e r s o n t h a t p r e s e n ts t h e - B a s e O ff ic e r
c o m m a n d in g w h ic h w a s in t h i s c a s e C o l o n e l Vis s e r.

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
H e w i ll t h e n in tr o d u c e th e m t o t h e - m e e t a n d g r e e t s o t h a t
t h e y c a n - h e c a n w e lc o m e th e m o n - o n t h e a i r fo r c e b a s e , b u t t h a t
u n f o r t u n a t e ly d id n o t h a p p e n , b e c a u s e o n c e th e a i r c r a ft s t o p p e d
M r A s h u c w e n t to th e a ir c r a f t .

T h e fir s t p e o p l e t h a t d i s e m b a r k e d t h e

a ir c r a f t w e r e l a d ie s a n d h e t o o k t h e m to th e lo u n g e . S o - s o w e w a i t e d
t o f in d o u t w h o w a s t h e M in is t e r s , b u t th e y w e r e n e v e r i n t r o d u c e d t o u s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

A m I c o r r e c t t h a t th e b a s i s u p o n

w h ic h y o u w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o m f o r ta b l e w i t h t h e a ir c r a f t i n y o u r
p o s i ti o n - o ff ic i a l p o s i t io n - l a n d in g t h e r e w o u ld h a v e b e e n i f t h e r e w e r e
10

M i n is t e r s o n b o a r d ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is r i g h t s ir - C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: So …
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h e y w il l b e a b le t o l a n d th e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
t h a t y o u to o k ?

Ye s , b u t w h a t - w h a t t h e n w e r e th e s t e p s

S e e i n g th a t n o o n e w a s i n tr o d u c in g t h e M i n i s te r s a n d

y o u k n e w t h a t th e b a s is u p o n w h ic h a n y a i r c r a f t c o u ld l a n d t h e r e i f i t is
c a r r y i n g a Pr e s id e n t , D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t a c c o r d i n g t o th e e v i d e n c e t h a t
h a s b e e n le d o n M i n i s t e r s .
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : C h a i r e v e n i f I k n e w t h e r e w a s n o M i n i s te r s o n
20

b o a r d th a t fl ig h t . T h e r e w a s n o th in g t h a t I c o u l d d o a t t h a t s t a g e .
CHAIRPERSON:
a b o u t to l a n d .

A s a t t h e m o r n in g o f 3 0 A p r i l w h e n t h e a ir c r a f t w a s
W a s y o u r k n o w l e d g e th a t t h e r e w e r e M in is t e r s c o m i n g

w i t h t h e a ir c r a f t ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s s ir.
CHAIRPERSON: That was your …

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Understanding?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h a t u n d e r s t a n d i n g y o u h a d g o t fr o m w h o ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Fr o m A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u C h a i r a n d is - th a t i s -

f o ll o w i n g u p o n th e C h a ir ’s q u e s ti o n . T h a t i s th e s a m e in f o r m a t io n y o u
c o n v e y e d t o M a j o r N ts h is i ?
10

COLONEL ANDERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

T h a t is t h e s a m e in f o r m a ti o n I

conveyed to him.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o w c o u l d y o u t h e n t e ll t h e C h a ir s o p e o p l e a r e d i s e m b a r k i n g t h e a ir c r a f t t h e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

T h e y w e r e t a k e n t o th e l o u n g e s a n d t e a a n d

c o ff e e w a s p r o v i d e d to t h e m .

S o m e b o d y fr o m t h e e m b a s s y - I c a n n o t

r e m e m b e r t h e g e n tl e m a n ’s n a m e - t o o k a ll t h e p a s s p o r t s a n d I e s c o r t e d
h i m w i t h th e p a s s e n g e r li s t to t h e I m m i g r a ti o n O ff i c i a l a n d w e s ta r t e d
w i t h t h e i m m i g r a ti o n p r o c e s s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h o - h o w d i d i m m i g r a t io n k n o w t h a t
20

t h e r e w a s g o i n g to b e p e o p le la n d i n g ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h e b a s e c o m m a n d p o s t d is tr i b u te s l is ts t o a ll
r e l e v a n t d e p a r t m e n ts .

T h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e , B o r d e r P o l ic e ,

F o r e s tr y a n d F is h e r i e s , C u s t o ms . Th e y d i s tr i b u t e a ll t h e i n f o r m a ti o n to
t h e r e l e v a n t d e p a r t m e n ts a n d t h e n t h e y w il l a r r i v e th e r e o n t h e m o r n i n g
o f t h e a r r iv a l t o d o th e r e s p o n s i b l e ta s k s .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e n th e s e - s u p p o s i n g t h a t y o u

h a d s e e n la d ie s a li g h t i n g - d i s e m b a r k i n g th e a ir c r a f t a n d o n e w o u ld
m a y b e a s s u m e th a t m a y b e t h e y a r e t h e M in is te r s , b u t th e n w h a t a b o u t
the 217 or 200 other people?

W h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t

t h e s e p e o p l e w e r e c o m i n g t o d o i n S o u th A fr i c a ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : C h a ir, a t t h a t m e e ti n g o n t h e 2 n d Mr A s h u c d id
m e n ti o n t h a t t h e y w e r e c o m i n g t o - t o a w e d d i n g f u n c ti o n , b u t m y
r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s a s t h e o ffic e r in c h a r g e o f M o v e m e n ts is t o fa c i li t a t e t h e
a r r iv a l p r o c e d u r e s a n d t h e d e p a r t u r e p r o c e d u r e s . T h e p u r p o s e o f w h a t
10

t h e d e le g a ti o n d o e s in S o u th A fr ic a is n o t my r e s p o n s i b i li ty.

I cannot

g iv e a n o p i n i o n a b o u t t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . H a d y o u i n th e p a s t h a d b e f o r e - th a t
is b e f o r e 3 0 A p r i l - h a d y o u h a d w e d d i n g - a w e d d i n g p a r t y a r r iv i n g a t
Wa t e r k l o o f ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : N o t th a t I k n o w o f C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n y o th e r p a r ty i f i t is n o t a w e d d i n g p a r ty
…
COLONEL ANDERSON: There was …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W i th o u t a n y M i n is t e r s ?
20

C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h e r e w a s o n e i n c id e n t d u r i n g th e 2 0 1 0 W o r ld
C u p S o c c e r w h e r e t h e t e a m o f T h e N e t h e r l a n d s w e n t th r o u g h o u r
f a c i li t ie s . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h a t a i r c r a ft t h e y w e r e o n , b u t t h e y m a d e
u s e o f th e f a c i li t ie s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l t h a t is - th a t is i m p o r t a n t , b e c a u s e I w a s g o i n g

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
t o a s k y o u t h e q u e s t io n . To w h a t e x t e n t t h e Wa t e r k l o o f A ir B a s e h a s i n
t h e p a s t o r h a d in t h e p a s t p r io r t o t h is b e e n u s e d to - fo r t h e l a n d i n g o f
a ir c r a f t s w h ic h d i d n o t c a r r y a H e a d o f S ta t e , a P r i m e M i n is t e r, a
D e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t o r a - a Mi n is t e r.
Had that ever happened in your experience since you were at
Wa t e r k l o o f ? I s t h a t s o m e t h in g th a t u s e d t o h a p p e n ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : N o s ir. N o t th a t I k n o w o f . T h a t th e o t h e r s t h e r e w e r e m i li t a r y a ir c r a f t , b u t t h a t w a s m ili t a r y p e r s o n n e l , b u t I d o n o t
k n o w - I a m n o t - o f a n y s u c h a ir c r a f t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D i d y o u s a y y o u s t a r te d a t W a te r k l o o f i n 2 0 0 4 ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : J u s t r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u s a y y o u s ta r t e d w o r k i n g a t W a t e r k lo o f in

2004?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

F r o m 2 0 0 4 to 2 0 1 3 h o w m u c h o f t h a t t i m e d i d y o u

s p e n d w o r k i n g i n a p o s i t io n w h e r e y o u w o u l d h a v e k n o w n t h is
in f o r m a ti o n i f s u c h a i r c r a f ts d id la n d w h i c h d i d n o t c a r r y a P r e s i d e n t - a
P r e s i d e n t o r a M i n i s t e r o r Pr i m e M i n is t e r ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
20

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I s t a r t e d t h e r e I w a s t h e

B a s e O p s O ff ic e r. S o I w o u ld h a v e k n o w n fr o m 2 0 0 8 if s u c h fli g h ts t o o k
place.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o fr o m 2 0 0 8 t o 2 0 1 3 i f s u c h a f li g h t h a d l a n d e d y o u
w o u ld h a v e k n o w n ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ev e n f r o m 2 0 0 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ev e n f r o m 2 0 0 4 ?

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y fr o m 2 0 0 4 to 2 0 1 3 e x c e p t
f o r t h e fli g h t t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t t h a t c a r r i e d T h e N e th e r la n d s
Te a m - s o c c e r t e a m f o r t h e W o r l d C u p .

N o o t h e r f li g h t s l a n d e d a t

Wa t e r k l o o f Ai r B a s e w h ic h d id n o t c a r r y e i t h e r a Pr e s id e n t o r D e p u t y
P r e s i d e n t o r a P r i m e M i n i s t e r o r a M i n is te r ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : C h a ir, I th i n k - i f I c a n r e m e m b e r c o r r e c tly t h e
K i n g o f S w a z i l a n d - h i s m o th e r t h e Q u e e n - th e Q u e e n M o t h e r.

She

m a d e u s e o f t h e f a c il i ti e s , b u t o t h e r th a n t h a t I d o n o t k n o w o f a n y.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h e f o r m e r M in is t e r o f I n t e r n a t io n a l R e l a ti o n s

w h o w a s M i n is te r o f In t e r n a t io n a l R e l a t io n s a t t h e t i m e - 2 0 1 3 Ms Nkoana-Mashabane - gave evidence here some time back - I may be
w r o n g , b u t I s e e m to th in k t h a t s h e s a i d s o m e th i n g a l o n g t h e li n e s t h a t
t h e la n d i n g o f a ir c r a f t s a t Wa t e r k l o o f A ir F o r c e B a s e th a t d i d n o t c a r r y a
P r e s i d e n t o r D e p u ty P r e s i d e n t o r P r i m e M i n is t e r m a y b e o r M i n i s te r w a s
not something unusual.
I

maybe

m i s r e p r e s e n ti n g

what

she

s a id ,

but she

said

s o m e t h i n g t h a t c r e a t e d th e i m p r e s s io n t o m e th a t m a y b e t h e la n d i n g o f
t h is a i r c r a ft in 2 0 1 3 s h o u ld n o t b e s e e n a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t s h o u l d h a v e
20

c a u s e d t h e b i g n o is e t h a t h a p p e n e d , b e c a u s e a ir c r a f ts - c o m m e r c ia l
a ir c r a f t s la n d t h e r e q u it e r e g u l a r ly.

I m a y - I m a y b e m i s r e p r e s e n ti n g

what she said. I do not know whether …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir I c o u ld …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n h a s a n y r e c o l le c t io n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

No.

I - n o C h a ir.

Page 45 of 155

I do not have

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
r e c o l l e c ti o n .

I th i n k t h e d i ff e r e n c e s h e - a g - s h e d r e w a d i ff e r e n c e

b e t w e e n P r e s i d e n t , Vic e - D e p u t y Pr e s id e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e M in is t e r s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d t h e n s h e w a s s a y i n g s o fa r a s t h e

M i n is t e r s a r e c o n c e r n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e y w e r e la n d i n g t h e r e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Because if you recall the evidence of

M a jo r N ts h i s i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Wa s t h a t it w o u l d b e t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d th e
D e p u ty Pr e s i d e n t … ( in t e r v e n e s ) …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t - b u t w e w i ll …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ve r i fy t h a t d u r in g th e l u n c h b r e a k .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u r r e c o ll e c t io n is t h a t s h e w a s s a y i n g M i n is t e r s

a ls o l a n d t h e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , y e s , u n d e r c e r t a i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s

yes.

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y, n o t h a t’s – a n d t h a t w o u l d fa ll i n l in e

with your understanding.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y, a lr i g h t , t h a n k y o u .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u , s o r r y C h a ir, s o r r y. A n d th e n

a t w h a t p o in t t h e n d i d y o u r e a li s e t h a t m a y b e w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e o n
that day ought not to have happened?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a i r p e r s o n s h o r tl y a f t e r t h e a ir c r a f t l a n d e d

o r l e t m e s t a r t b e fo r e th e a ir c r a f t la n d e d t h e h e lic o p te r s a n d t h e fi x e d
10

w i n g a i r c r a ft t h a t w e r e s u p p o s e d t o t a k e t h e p a s s e n g e r s t o S u n C i ty
t h e y w e r e s u p p o s e d to l a n d a t e i g h t o ’c l o c k i n t h e m o r n i n g , b u t t h e t a s k
in a v ia t io n w e w o r k w i th B r a v o ti m e a n d Z u l u ti m e , t i m e a t t h e m o m e n t
is B r a v o ti m e , b u t t h e t a s k w a s t a s k e d f o r i n Z u lu w h ic h m e a n s i t w a s
0 6 Z u lu w h ic h m e a n s i t ’s a c t u a ll y 0 8 b u t t h e y a r r iv e d tw o h o u r s e a r ly,
s o o u r s t a n d a r d o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e s is t w o h o u r s b e fo r e a n a ir c r a f t
a r r iv e s w e n e e d t o b e a t w o r k a n d e v e r y t h i n g n e e d s t o b e r e a d y, s o
w h e n I a r r iv e d th e r e a t W a t e r k lo o f t h a t m o r n i n g I h e a r d h e l ic o p t e r s i n
t h e b a c k g r o u n d a n d I r e a li s e d t h o s e a i r c r a f t w e r e o n th e w a y tw o h o u r s
t o o e a r ly a n d i t w a s s ti ll q u i t e d a r k , b u t f o r t u n a t e l y s o m e o f t h e

20

m a r s h a ls w e r e a lr e a d y th e r e a n d b e t w e e n t h e m a r s h a l s a n d m y s e lf w e
w e r e a b le to p a r k th o s e a ir c r a f t b e c a u s e i t w a s a b it d a r k , b u t t h e n
w h e n I g o t b a c k t o th e b u i ld i n g t h e r e w a s a l o t o f p e o p l e a n d t h e r e w a s
a l o t o f th in g s h a p p e n i n g a t t h e s a m e ti m e .
T h e w e lc o m e p a r t y w a s m o r e t h a n w h a t w e i n d i c a t e d t o t h e m ,
w e n o r m a l ly h a v e a w e lc o m e p a r t y o f a b o u t tw e lv e , b u t t h e w e lc o m e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
p a r t y w a s m u c h m o r e t h a n 1 2 p e o p l e , s o t h e r e w a s a l o t o f p e o p le a n d
a t a c e r t a i n s t a g e I r e a li s e d th a t th is w a s m a y b e n o t w h a t ’s s u p p o s e d t o
h a p p e n , b u t i t w a s n o t m y – i n m y jo b d e s c r i p ti o n t o m a k e n o i s e a b o u t
that.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

L e t’s j u s t d e a l w i t h t h a t a s p e c t , th e n y o u

f e l t u n c o m f o r ta b le , y o u ’r e s e e i n g a l l t h e s e p e o p le w a lk in g a r o u n d , w h a t
were your concerns at that point?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

T h e r e w a s , r e m e m b e r I m e n ti o n e d t h a t w h e n

t h e a m b a s s a d o r p h o n e d m e t h e fi r s t t i m e h e s a i d , h e m e n ti o n e d
10

s o m e t h i n g a b o u t a c u lt u r a l e v e n t, I d i d n ’t lis t e n p r o p e r ly b e c a u s e I
w a s n ’ t i n te r e s t e d o n w h a t th e y a r e c o m i n g t o d o h e r e , I w a s m o r e
in t e r e s te d i n th e ty p e o f a ir c r a f t , b u t l a t e r i t b e c a m e k n o w n t h a t t h e y
w a n t e d s o m e tr a d i ti o n a l d a n c e r s t o w e lc o m e th e s e p a s s e n g e r s , a n d I
w a s u n d e r th e i m p r e s s io n t h a t tr a d i t io n a l d a n c e r s is m a y b e g o i n g to b e
fi v e o r s ix p e o p l e , i t w a s m o r e , i t w a s a b o u t 1 5 t o 2 0 p e o p le th a t w a s
p e r f o r m i n g tr a d i t io n a l d a n c e s , a n d my s e c u r i t y p e o p l e , th e 5 0 4 s e c u r i ty
squad and people they were on duty to contain the people because
t h e r e w a s – a t th a t s t a g e n o b o d y w e n t o u t s i d e th e b u i l d i n g .

The

tr a d i ti o n a l d a n c e r s w e r e s ta n d i n g a t t h e e n tr a n c e d o o r o f t h e l o u n g e .
20

Is t h a t w h a t y o u . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
COLONEL ANDERSON:

S o w e a r e d e a li n g w i th y o u r c o n c e r n s .
Ye s I b a s i c a ll y j u s t s e n s i tis e d t h e s e c u r i t y

p e o p l e a n d t h e m i li t a r y p o lic e to t e ll t h e m t h e r e i s a n u m b e r, t h e r e ’s
m o r e p e o p l e th a n w e e x p e c t e d , t h e y m u s t j u s t d o t h e ir r e s p o n s i b l e
d u t ie s a n d t r y to c o n ta in t h e p e o p le .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s , m a y b e y o u s h o u ld , b e f o r e w e g o t o

y o u r – to t h e c h a r g e s th a t h a p p e n e d l a te r o n , j u s t d e a l w i t h t h e
c h a n g e s w i th in th e a ir p o r t t h a t w e r e b r o u g h t a b o u t b y Mr C h a r la n g ,
p e o p l e th a t h e w a s w o r k i n g w i t h .
COLONEL ANDERSON:

T h e r e q u e s t t h a t th e y w a n te d t o p r e s e n t t e a

a n d c o ffe e I s a i d t o th e m a t t h a t m e e t in g w e d o n ’ t h a v e 2 0 0 c u p s a n d
s a u c e r s a n d s i d e p la t e s , w e c a n n o t a c c o m m o d a t e t h e t e a a n d c o ff e e ,
s o t h e y s a id n o t h a t’s n o t a p r o b l e m th e y w il l a r r a n g e f o r t h e te a a n d
c o ff e e , a n d t h e y a ls o in d i c a t e d t h a t th e y w a n t t o b r i n g i n c o ff e e t a b l e s
10

a n d e a s y c h a ir s .

T h a t ’s w h e n I d e c i d e d t h a t I w il l v a c a t e th a t a r e a

a d j a c e n t t o t h e l o u n g e a n d t a k e o u t a l l t h e d e f e n c e fo r c e fu r n i tu r e ,
w h ic h w e r e a b o u t 2 0 e a s y c h a ir s a n d f iv e c o ff e e t a b le s , I m o v e d t h e m
t o a s e p a r a t e r o o m s o th a t t h e d e fe n c e f o r c e fu r n i tu r e d o e s n ’ t g e t
m i n g l e d u p w it h th e o th e r p e o p l e ’s fu r n i tu r e , I t o o k t h a t o u t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , b u t d o e s t h a t u s u a lly h a p p e n t h a t

p e o p l e c o u l d b r i n g in f u r n i t u r e w it h in t h e b a s e a n d s e t u p ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

It has happened

b e f o r e th a t w e u s e t h a t

s p e c i f ic a r e a f o r fu n c t io n s , w e h a d t h e A f r ic a A e r o s p a c e a n d D e f e n c e
O p e n in g F u n c ti o n t h e r e o n c e a n d t h e y b r o u g h t i n th e ir f u r n i t u r e .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o t h e n y o u ’v e g o t t h e s e m a n y p e o p le

a n d th e n y o u w e n t t h r o u g h a c c o r d i n g t o y o u t h e r e w e r e i m m i g r a t io n
o ffic e r s , w h o h a d in f o r m e d a l l t h e s e d e p a r t m e n ts to b e p r e s e n t?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir t h e b a s e c o m m a n d p o s t d is tr i b u te t h e

lis t to a l l th e d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n ts to in f o r m t h e m o f t h e ir a r r iv a l ti m e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Is th a t y o u r s e c t io n ?

Page 49 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
COLONEL ANDERSON:

N o t h e b a s e c o m m a n d p o s t, t h e b a s e

c o m m a n d p o s t is l e v e l 4 a n d w e a r e l e v e l 5 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , b u t S A R S w a s t h e r e , H e a lt h w a s

t h e r e a n d w h o e ls e w a s t h e r e ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

P o r ts w e r e t h e r e , I m m i g r a t io n w a s t h e r e ,

B o r d e r P o l ic e w a s t h e r e a n d I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r i f t h e C u s t o m s p e o p le
w e r e t h e r e b u t t h e a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t w e h a v e w i th t h a t d e p a r t m e n t i f
t h e y a r e n o t th e r e th e n th e m o v e m e n ts p e o p le w i ll X - r a y a n d s c a n a ll
t h e in c o m i n g l u g g a g e a n d th a t i s w h a t h a p p e n e d , t h e m o v e m e n ts
10

personnel scanned and X-rayed all the luggage that came in.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l th e C h a ir p e r s o n th e

p r o c e s s t h a t y o u f o l lo w e d i n c h e c k i n g t h e p a s s p o r ts a n d v e r i fy i n g w h o
h a s c o m e i n to t h e b u i ld in g ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a i r w i t h t h e p r e v io u s v is i t s w e h a d i f i t ’s a

b i g g r o u p o f p e o p l e t h e p r o to c o l o ff ic e r n o r m a ll y c o ll e c ts a l l t h e
p a s s p o r t s w i th t h e p a c k s l is t , th e p a s s e n g e r l is t a n d w e t a k e th a t t o th e
i m m i g r a t i o n o ffic i a l , h e w il l v e r i fy t h e p a s s p o r t s w i th th e p a s s e n g e r l is t
b u t i t is h i s p r e r o g a tiv e t o a t a n y s t a g e s t o p t h e p r o c e s s a n d s a y h e
w a n ts to s e e e v e r y p e r s o n w i t h h i s o w n p r iv a te p a s s p o r t .
20

We cannot

s t o p h i m , i f t h a t is w h a t h e r e q u e s t t h e n w e w i ll d o i t b u t th e c u s t o m i s
t h a t w e n o r m a l ly t a k e th e p a s s p o r ts i n a b u n c h w i t h t h e p a s s e n g e r l is t
a n d th e y v e r i fy i t fr o m t h e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
somebody takes

a bunch

A n d w e r e y o u s a t is fi e d w i t h t h a t p r o c e s s ,
o f 2 1 7 p a s s p o r ts , g iv e s

th e m t o t h e

i m m i g r a t i o n o ffi c e r a n d t h e r e is n o b o d y t o c o m e w i t h t h e p a s s p o r t ?

Page 50 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
COLONEL ANDERSON:

Ye s C h a i r t h e r e w a s s o m e b o d y fr o m t h e

E m b a s s y t h a t a ls o e s c o r t e d a l l th e p a s s p o r ts .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e n a f t e r t h a t d a y w h ic h is – t h e n w h a t

u l ti m a t e ly h a p p e n e d t o t h e p a s s e n g e r s , h o w d id t h e y l e a v e t h e a ir p o r t ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

S o m e o f th e p a s s e n g e r s C h a ir le f t w it h t h e

h e li c o p t e r s a n d t h e f ix e d w i n g s , a n d t h e r e s t w e r e w i th v e h ic l e s t a k e n
b y r o a d t o S u n C i ty.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , t h e – is i t c o r r e c t t h a t e v e r y t h i n g

t h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h i n m o v e m e n t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a u th o r is e d b y
10

y o u r s e l f , i f th e r e is g o i n g t o b e b r i n g in g o f C h a ir s t h e r e is g o in g to b e
s e a ti n g a r r a n g e m e n t s , t h e r e ’s g o i n g to b e p a r k in g b a y s a ll o c a t e d t h a t
w o u ld h a v e f a l l e n w i t h i n y o u r a u t h o r i ty ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

Ye s C h a ir th a t is c o r r e c t .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d e v e r y t h i n g th a t h a p p e n e d th e r e

w a s a u t h o r is e d b y y o u r s e l f?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u . T h e n a f t e r t h a t t h e n a s

y o u a r e a w a r e t h e n t h e r e w a s a lo t o f m e d ia a t te n ti o n to t h i s a n d th e r e
w e r e s o m e e n q u i r i e s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
20

COLONEL ANDERSON:

Ye s C h a ir, w h a t h a p p e n e d is w h e n th e

a ir c r a f t l e f t, w h e n a ll t h e p a s s e n g e r s w e r e g o n e I w e n t to th e
o p e r a ti o n s

room

because

I

was

keen

that

a ll

th e

p e o p le ,

the

p a s s e n g e r s l e a v e a s s o o n a s p o s s ib l e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r fl i g h t
t h a t to o k p a r t th a t m o r n i n g a n d w e ’ v e g o t a p a r k i n g b a y th a t ’s a ll o c a t e d
t o th e P r e s i d e n t ’s a ir c r a f t a n d w e h a d to k e e p t h a t p a r k i n g b a y c l e a r s o

Page 51 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
b e c a u s e o u r Pr e s id e n t w a s a l s o f ly in g th a t d a y I w a n t e d to g e t t h e a r e a
c le a r a s s o o n a s p o s s ib l e .
S o o n c e a l l t h e p a s s e n g e r s l e ft I w e n t t o t h e o p e r a t i o n s r o o m
a n d to fi n d o u t i f t h e f li g h t s o f t h e P r e s id e n t is s ti ll th e s a m e t i m e ,
t h a t ’s w h e n t h e y to ld m e in t h e o p e r a ti o n s r o o m t h a t t h e r e ’s – t h e
m e d i a i s a w a r e o f th is fl ig h t a n d th e r e ’s a l o t o f m e d i a a t t e n t io n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
COLONEL ANDERSON:

W h e r e w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t fl y i n g t o ?

T h e P r e s i d e n t w a s s u p p o s e d to f ly to S u n C i ty

b u t w h e n I g o t t o t h e O p s r o o m t h e y – I l o o k e d a t t h e b o a r d s a n d I s a id
10

t o th e m w h e r e ’s t h e fl ig h t f o r t h e P r e s id e n t b e c a u s e h e i s s u p p o s e d t o
fl y t o S u n C it y a n d th e y s a i d n o i t w a s j u s t c a n c e ll e d , h e i s n o w fly i n g
t o C o n g o D R C a n d th e n h e fl e w t o C o n g o D R C la t e r th a t a f t e r n o o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
COLONEL ANDERSON:

Ye s , fr o m t h e b a s e ?

From Waterkloof yes.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , n o w t h e – le t ’s d e a l t h e n w i t h t h e

e n q u ir y, w h a t w a s th e fi r s t t i m e th a t y o u w e r e to ld t h a t t h e r e w a s
s o m e t h i n g w r o n g , t h a t i f t h e r e ’s a n y t h in g w r o n g , t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g
w r o n g w i t h t h e l a n d in g o f t h a t a ir c r a ft a t W a te r k l o o f b a s e .
COLONEL ANDERSON:
20

Th a t m o r n in g w h e n I w e n t t o th e o p e r a ti o n s

r o o m I – a n d s h o r t ly a f t e r t h a t , t h a t s a m e d a y, t h e C h i e f o f t h e A i r
F o r c e p h o n e d a n d s a i d w e m u s t c o m e t o t h e Ai r Fo r c e H e a d q u a r te r s , h e
w a n ts t o s e e m e . T h a t is w h e n th e y w e r e t o l d , w e w e r e t o l d t h a t t h i n g s
w e r e n o t w h a t t h e y ’r e s u p p o s e d t o b e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

W e . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]

I ’ m s o r r y, a t s o m e s ta g e th a t m o r n in g I g u e s s t o y o u

Page 52 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
g o t t o k n o w t h a t t h e r e w e r e n o m in is t e r s t h a t h a d b e e n p a s s e n g e r s i n
t h e a ir c r a f t is th a t c o r r e c t ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Is n ’ t t h a t t h e t i m e th a t y o u w o u l d h a v e b e c o m e a w a r e

t h a t b e c a u s e t h e r e w e r e n o m i n is t e r s t h i s a ir c r a f t s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n
c le a r e d t o l a n d a t W a t e r k lo o f a ir b a s e ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir th e th i n g is t h e r e w a s s o m a n y th i n g s

t h a t w a s h a p p e n in g a t t h e s a m e ti m e , t h e p a s s p o r ts w e r e b e i n g
processed,
10

the

baggage

were

being

X-rayed

and

scanned,

th e

p a s s e n g e r s th a t fl e w t o S u n C i ty w e h a d to e n s u r e t h a t th o s e
p a s s e n g e r s g o t o t h e r i g h t a ir c r a f t , t h e o t h e r p a s s e n g e r s th a t w e n t t o
t h e – w i th t h e v e h i c l e s , th e r e w a s n o t t i m e t o m a k e t h a t v is i b l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a , b u t w h a t I a m s a y i n g is t h e r e is a ti m e w h e n y o u

b e c a m e a w a r e th a t th e r e w e r e n o mi n is te r s o n t h is a ir c r a f t , s o I w o u l d
h a v e e x p e c t e d th a t t h e m o m e n t y o u g o t t o k n o w t h a t fa c t s o m e t h i n g
w o u ld h a v e s a i d to y o u s o th is a ir c r a f t s h o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n c l e a r e d ,
m a y b e w e w e r e m is l e d ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir i t w a s n e v e r c o n fi r m e d t o m e t h a t

t h e r e ’s n o m i n i s te r s o n b o a r d t h a t a ir c r a f t .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O h t h a t w a s n e v e r c o n fir m e d to y o u ?

COLONEL ANDERSON:

I t w a s n e v e r c o n fir m e d t h a t t h e r e w a s n o

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

O n t h a t d a y o r e v e n s u b s e q u e n tly ?

COLONEL ANDERSON:

S u b s e q u e n t ly n o b o d y h a s e v e r c o n f ir m e d

t h a t th e r e w a s n o m in is t e r s o n b o a r d t h a t a ir c r a f t.

Page 53 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:

S o u p to t o d a y y o u d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e o r

t h e r e w e r e n o m i n is te r s .
COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u j u s t k n o w t h a t th a t y o u h a d b e e n t o l d i n

a d v a n c e t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e m i n i s te r s .
COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , i f t h e r e a r e m i n is t e r s w o u ld n ’ t th e r e b e a

p r o c e d u r e t h a t w o u l d b e f o l l o w e d a f t e r t h e y h a v e l a n d e d w h e t h e r i t ’s a
m i n is t e r o r p r e s i d e n t , t h e p r e s i d e n t o r p r i m e m i n i s te r fr o m a n o t h e r
10

c o u n tr y o r a n y th i n g lik e th a t , w o u l d t h a t n o t b e p r o c e d u r e t o b e
f o ll o w e d i n t e r m s o f p r o to c o l t h a t w o u l d h a v e b r o u g h t th is t o y o u r
a tt e n ti o n ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir t h e n o r m a l p r o c e d u r e i s t h a t t h e

M i n is t e r o r th e V I P, t h e m o s t s e n i o r p e r s o n o n b o a r d t h e a ir c r a f t
d is e m b a r k s t h e a i r c r a ft fir s t, a r e p r e s e n t a tiv e f r o m D I R C O a s w e ll a s
t h e W a te r k l o o f M e e te r a n d G r e e t e r w il l m e e t t h e m a t t h e s te p s o f t h e
a ir c r a f t a n d e s c o r t t h e m i n t o th e b u i l d i n g .

Whether that happened or

n o t I d o n ’t k n o w, t h o s e – t h e V I P ’s w e r e n e v e r i n tr o d u c e d to t h e m e e t e r
a n d g r e e t e r.
20

M r A s h u k m e t t h e p e o p le t h a t d is e m b a r k e d f ir s t a n d h e

e s c o r t e d t h e m to t h e b u i ld i n g s o w h e t h e r th o s e w e r e m i n i s t e r s o r n o t
m i n is t e r s I d o n ’ t k n o w, th e y w e r e l a d ie s a s I s a y w e n e v e r k n e w, w e
w e r e n e v e r i n fo r m e d w h e t h e r t h e m in s te r s w a s l a d i e s o r m a l e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a i d e a r l ie r o n t h e e i t h e r t h e C h i e f o f t h e A i r

F o r c e B a s e o r t h e C h i e f o f t h e D e fe n c e F o r c e c a l le d y o u , t h e d a y, th a t
m o r n in g .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

Page 54 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y o u s a i d h e c a l l e d y o u t h a t m o r n i n g .

COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e C h i e f o f t h e Ai r F o r c e .

T h a t ’s r i g h t C h a i r.

Is t h a t r ig h t ?

I g a i n e d t h e i m p r e s s io n fr o m y o u r

e v i d e n c e t h a t w h a t e v e r h e m a y h a v e s a id t o y o u m a d e y o u r e a l is e t h a t
t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g w r o n g w it h th is a ir c r a f t, w h a t d i d y o u th i n k w a s
w r o n g w i t h i t , a n d w h a t w a s th e n b a s is fo r t h i n k i n g s o .
COLONEL ANDERSON:

M y o n ly t h o u g h t w a s I c a n n o t c o n f ir m t h a t

t h e r e w e r e M i n i s t e r s o n b o a r d t h a t a ir c r a f t , s o I t h i n k – a n d b e c a u s e o f
10

t h e n u m b e r o f p e o p le t h a t d i s e m b a r k e d t h e a ir c r a ft I th in k I r e a l is e d
t h a t t h e r e w a s – m u s t b e a p r o b l e m w i t h t h is a i r c r a f t b u t o t h e r t h a n th a t
n o t r e a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t i f y o u d i d n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r th e r e w e r e

m i n is t e r s o r t h e r e w e r e n o m i n is te r s th a t w o u ld n ’t l e a d y o u to c o n c lu d e
t h a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w i th t h e a ir c r a f t i f y o u e s t a b l is h e d o r if
y o u t h o u g h t t h a t t h e r e w e r e n o m i n is t e r s , i s n ’ t it ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

O n c e a g a in C h a ir i f w e r e c e i v e a n o v e r - fl i g h t

c le a r a n c e fr o m t h e A ir F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t th a t is m y a u t h o r i ty t h a t
t h a t a ir c r a f t c a n l a n d t h e r e .
20

I a m j u s t t h e e x e c u t in g p e r s o n a n d t h e

p e r s o n th a t f a c il it a t e s t h e a r r iv a l .

W h o is o n b o a r d th a t a ir c r a f t o r w h o

is n o t o n b o a r d th a t a ir c r a f t is n o t m y r e s p o n s i b i li ty.

I have an over-

fl ig h t c le a r a n c e a n d it s a y s t h is a ir c r a f t c a n l a n d h e r e , w h e th e r t h e r e
w a s m i n is t e r s o n b o a r d th e a i r c r a ft o r n o t I a m n o t in a p o s i t io n t o
q u e s t io n t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o t h a t p a r t I u n d e r s t a n d . Yo u w e r e a s k e d t h e

Page 55 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
q u e s t io n I th in k , w h e th e r b y m e o r b y Ms N o r m a n , a t w h a t s ta g e y o u
r e a l is e d th a t t h e r e w a s s o m e th i n g w r o n g a b o u t th e a ir c r a f t a n d y o u
in d i c a t e d a n d t h e n I a s k e d y o u a n d I s a i d t o y o u y o u s a id th a t y o u w e r e
c a l l e d b y I t h i n k y o u s a i d t h e C h i e f o f th e A ir Fo r c e a n d I s a i d y o u g a v e
m e th e i m p r e s s i o n w h e n y o u t a l k e d a b o u t h i m c a ll in g y o u t h a t a f t e r th a t
y o u r e a l is e d th a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g w r o n g a b o u t t h e a ir c r a f t ,
r e m e m b e r t h e n I a s k e d th e q u e s ti o n a n d t h e n y o u s a id w e ll y o u w e r e
n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e m i n is te r s o r t h e r e w e r e n o t m i n i s te r s , s o I
a m tr y i n g t o e s t a b l is h w h a t i t is t h a t y o u th o u g h t w a s w r o n g w it h th e
10

la n d i n g o f th e a ir c r a f t o r w it h s o m e th i n g a b o u t t h i s a ir c r a f t a n d h o w y o u
came to that conclusion.
D i d I m is u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e ?

O k a y, l e t m e s ta r t a g a i n .

D i d y o u a n y s ta g e o n t h e 3 0 t h o f A p r il , t h e d a y o n w h i c h t h e a ir c r a f t
la n d e d , t a k e t h e v i e w t h a t th e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g a b o u t t h a t
a ir c r a f t la n d i n g a t W a t e r k lo o f A i r F o r c e B a s e ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t, n o C h a ir.

Ye s , d i d y o u t a k e t h a t v i e w a t a n y s ta g e a f te r t h a t

s in c e t h e n u p t o n o w ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
20

A f t e r I h e a r d a l l th e in f o r m a t io n t h a t w a s o n

t h e m e d ia t h e n I r e a l is e d b u t th a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n a p r o b l e m b u t b e f o r e
that not.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t i s it t h a t y o u h e a r d o r l e a r n t th a t m a d e y o u

t h i n k th e r e w a s a p r o b le m .
COLONEL ANDERSON:

T h e m e d i a w a s r e f e r r in g t o w e d d in g g u e s ts

f o r a p r i v a t e fu n c t io n .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:

And so?

W h y d id t h a t m a k e i t w r o n g f o r t h e a ir c r a f t

to land?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

S o m e o f th e p e o p le a t M o v e m e n t s t o ld m e

t h a t m o r n i n g d o I k n o w th a t t h e r e is a l o t o f m e d i a a c r o s s t h e r o a d a t
t h e l o c a l g a r a g e , s o I s a i d n o I d id n o t k n o w t h e r e w a s a l o t o f m e d i a
a tt e n ti o n a n d lo o k i n g a t w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h t h e a r r i v a l a n d n o
in d i c a t io n o f a n y m i n is te r s t h e n I r e a li s e d b u t t h e r e w a s – b e c a u s e
t h e r e w a s n o m i n is t e r s i n t r o d u c e d s o t h a t m a d e m e t h in k b u t m a y b e t h i s
w a s n o t a b o v e b o a r d , b u t i t is n o t m y p o s it io n t o m a k e a c o m m e n t li k e
10

that.
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t a t s o m e s t a g e o n th e 3 0 t h o f

A p r il , th a t is th e d a y o f t h e la n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t y o u g o t to k n o w t h a t
t h e r e w a s n o m in is t e r i n th e a ir c r a f t ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

A s I s a y i t w a s n e v e r c o n fir m e d to m e th a t

t h e r e w a s n o m in is t e r s o n b o a r d t h a t a ir c r a f t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , s o is th e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u h e a r d o n t h a t d a y

t h a t m a d e y o u t h i n k th a t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g w r o n g a b o u t t h e l a n d i n g
o f t h e a ir c r a f t?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o C h a ir.

W h a t d i d t h e C h ie f o f t h e A ir F o r c e s a y to y o u w h e n

h e c a ll e d y o u ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

He wanted to know what procedures we

f o ll o w e d t o g e t t h e a u t h o r i ty, th e o v e r - fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

COLONEL ANDERSON:

A n d I e x p l a i n e d t o h i m t h e s a m e , th e r e q u e s t

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
c a m e fr o m D I R C O , o n c e w e ’v e g o t t h e o v e r - f li g h t c le a r a n c e t h e n w e
c a n p r o c e e d w i t h t h e fu n c t io n s t o p e r fo r m f o r th e a r r iv a l , a n d h e w a n te d
t o k n o w w h o w a s a ll i n f o r m e d o f t h e a r r iv a l a n d I a l s o m e n ti o n e d t o h i m
t h a t a ll t h e r e le v a n t S t a t e D e p a r t m e n t s w a s p r e s e n t , th e r e w a s m i li t a r y
p o li c e p r e s e n t , o u r s e c u r i ty w a s p r e s e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

D id h e h a v e a n y c o n c e r n a b o u t t h e l a n d i n g o f t h e

a ir c r a f t , d i d h e e x p r e s s a n y c o n c e r n a b o u t th e l a n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t ,
d o y o u k n o w w h y h e w a s a s k i n g a ll t h e s e q u e s ti o n s t o y o u ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
10

N o lo o k I l is t e n e d t o a ll t h e r a d i o b u ll e ti n s

t h a t w a s th e r e a n d t h a t w a s t h e d e d u c ti o n th a t I m a d e t h a t s o m e th in g
w a s n o t a b o v e b o a r d a n d t h e y n e e d t o i n v e s t ig a t e a n d fi n d o u t w h e r e
t h e p r o b l e m , w h y w a s th is a ir c r a f t t a s k e d t o l a n d th e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t m y q u e s t i o n i s w h e t h e r t h e C h i e f o f th e A ir

F o r c e e x p r e s s e d a n y c o n c e r n t o y o u a b o u t t h e l a n d i n g o f th e a i r c r a ft
when he called you?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s h e d id b e c a u s e th a t ’s w h y h e c a l le d u s .

What was that concern?

COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r e x a c tl y w h a t h i s

c o n c e r n w a s , b u t I k n e w h e w a n te d t o k n o w w h a t w a s t h e b a c k g r o u n d t o
20

t h e a u t h o r i s a t io n o f t h i s f li g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s n o t t h a t t h e a ir c r a ft s h o u l d n o t h a v e l a n d e d a t

t h e – s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a u t h o r i s e d t o la n d a t t h e W a te r k l o o f A ir
Force Base, was that not a concern he expressed?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

I th in k t h a t w a s , b u t I c a n n o t a n s w e r t h a t .

I’ m s o r r y b u t h e w a n t e d t o k n o w w h a t l e d t o th e a u t h o r is a ti o n o f th e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
fl ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , a n d d id y o u t a lk a b o u t w h e t h e r t h o s e w h o a ls o

g a v e th e a u th o r is a ti o n k n e w w h e th e r t h e – t h e r e w o u l d b e m i n is t e r s o r
h e a d s o f s t a t e , d e p u ty h e a d s o f s t a te in t h e a i r c r a ft , d i d h e r a is e th a t
is s u e a t a ll w h e t h e r t h e y k n e w a b o u t th a t ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r e x a c t ly w h a t w a s r a i s e d a t

t h a t m e e t i n g , I k n o w t h a t t h e o ffic e r i n c h a r g e o f t h e A ir Fo r c e
C o m m a n d P o s t w a s a l s o p r e s e n t a t t h a t m e e t in g .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

Ye s w e l l I w a s a s k i n g y o u t h e s e q u e s ti o n s

b e c a u s e I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n e a r li e r o n th a t w h e n y o u c a m e o u t o f t h a t
m e e ti n g fr o m y o u r e v id e n c e th a t w h e n y o u c a m e o u t o f th a t m e e t i n g
w i t h t h e C h i e f o f th e A ir F o r c e y o u b e l i e v e d t h a t th e r e w a s s o m e t h in g
w r o n g a b o u t th e l a n d i n g o f th is a i r c r a ft a n d I w a s s e e k in g to e s t a b l is h
w h a t i t is t h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d w a s w r o n g a s a t t h a t ti m e .

Was my

i m p r e s s io n o f y o u r e v i d e n c e w r o n g ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

Th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t I g o t w a s b e c a u s e i t w a s

a p r iv a te a i r c r a f t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t p r iv a t e a ir c r a f t s h a d la n d e d – j a .

COLONEL ANDERSON:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d t h a t s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a c o n c e r n to h i m ,

s h o u l d i t h a v e b e e n , t h a t o n i ts o w n ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

P r iv a t e a ir c r a f t h a s l a n d e d t h e r e b u t w i t h

c le a r a n c e f r o m t h e A i r F o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o f c o u r s e t h e r e w a s c le a r a n c e h e r e is n ’t i t?

COLONEL ANDERSON:

T h e o v e r - fli g h t c le a r a n c e , th e a u t h o r i t y fr o m

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
t h e A ir Fo r c e C o m m a n d P o s t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I m e a n t h e r e w a s h e r e w a s t h e r e n o t ?

COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

C a n y o u ju s t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

Th e c le a r a n c e t h a t s h o u ld b e t h e r e fi r s t w a s t h e r e i n

r e g a r d t o t h i s a ir c r a f t w a s w e l l is n ’ t it ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir th e r e w a s a c l e a r a n c e .

Ye s , s o h e s h o u ld n o t h a v e h a d a n y c o n c e r n o n c e h e

k n e w th a t t h e r e w a s c l e a r a n c e , e v e n i f i t w a s a p r iv a te a ir c r a f t u n l e s s
h e t h o u g h t t h a t i t d id n o t m e e t t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s o n th e b a s i s o f w h ic h
10

t h e c l e a r a n c e s h o u ld b e g iv e n , i s n ’ t i t ?
I n o t h e r w o r d s o n c e th e r e is c l e a r a n c e th e f a c t th a t i t w a s a
p r i v a t e a ir c r a f t s h o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a c o n c e r n o n i ts o w n , i s t h a t
r ig h t ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I t s h o u l d o n ly h a v e b e e n a c o n c e r n i f t h e r e w a s

s o m e t h i n g e ls e h e w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t .
COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d y o u d o n ’t k n o w w h a t it w a s t h a t h e w a s

concerned about?
20

COLONEL ANDERSON:
CHAIRPERSON:

Not at that stage.

J a o k a y.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

F o ll o w i n g u p o n t h e

C h a ir ’s m a y I j u s t r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 3 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t C o l o n e l
A n d e r s o n , p a r a g r a p h 1 3 , t h a t r e l a t e s t o t h e q u e s ti o n s t h a t t h e C h a i r
h a s p u t to y o u , c o u l d y o u ju s t r e a d , w it h y o u r p e r m is s i o n C h a ir, 1 3 .1 ,

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C h a ir t h a t i s a r e s p o n s e t o t h e r e p o r t o f t h e J C P S , 3 . 2 o f t h e r e p o r t
d e a ls w i th a r r iv a l p h a s e , i t ’s e n t i tl e d a r r iv a l p h a s e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , c o u ld y o u j u s t r e a d y o u r r e s p o n s e s

to that please?
COLONEL ANDERSON:
“ I d id a g r e e w i t h C o l o n e l Fr e d e r ic k s o n a n d C o l o n e l Vi s s e r
t h a t t h e f li g h t s h o u l d n e v e r h a v e l a n d e d . I o n ly c a m e t o t h is
c o n c l u s i o n a f te r t h e f li g h t h a s l a n d e d a n d I r e a li s e d t h a t th e r e
10

w e r e n o m i n is te r s o n b o a r d th e fl ig h t . ”
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

S o I j u s t w a n t y o u to r e fl e c t o n y o u r

a n s w e r s t h a t y o u h a v e g i v e n to t h e C h a ir o n t h a t is s u e .
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir if I c a n r e f e r b a c k t o t h is p a r a g r a p h t h e

m i n is t e r s w e r e n e v e r i n t r o d u c e d s o I a s s u m e d a t th a t s ta g e t h e r e w a s n
n o m i n is t e r s o r t h e m i n i s t e r s w a s – k e p t p r i v a t e a n d i f y o u lo o k a t a ll
t h e p e o p l e t h a t a r r iv e d t h e r e , a ll th e a d d i ti o n a l h e l ic o p t e r s , t h e
v e h ic l e s , t h a t h a s n e v e r h a p p e n e d b e f o r e .

I m e n ti o n e d t o A d v o c a t e

N o r m a n y e s t e r d a y t h a t a t o n e s t a g e i t f e l t li k e t h e b a s e w a s c a p t u r e d
b y th is I n d ia n d e l e g a ti o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I a s k t h e q u e s ti o n a g a in d id y o u a t a n y s t a g e o n

t h e d a y o n w h ic h t h is a ir c r a f t la n d e d , n a m e ly t h e 3 0 t h A p r il , t a k e t h e
v ie w t h a t t h is a ir c r a f t s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a ll o w e d t o l a n d a t t h e A ir
Force Base?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

Ye s C h a ir t h a t is th e c o m m e n t I m a d e t h a t

m o r n in g t o C o lo n e l Fr e d e r ic k s o n a n d C o l o n e l Vi s s e r, b u t t h a t w a s m y

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
personal opinion.

I t w a s n o t – I w a s n ’ t c h a ll e n g in g , i t w a s j u s t my

p e r s o n a l o p i n i o n t h a t l o o k in g a t a ll t h e a c t iv i t ie s t h a t h a s t a k e n p l a c e
t h e y s h o u l d a c tu a lly h a v e g o n e t o a c o m m e r c ia l a ir fi e ld .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f I m i s u n d e r s ta n d y o u r

e v i d e n c e , I t h o u g h t e a r l ie r o n y o u h a d g i v e n d i ff e r e n t e v i d e n c e , n a m e ly
t h a t y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w i f t h e r e w a s a n y t h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h e la n d i n g o f
t h a t a i r c r a ft o n t h a t d a y a n d s u b s e q u e n tl y u n ti l y o u h e a r d , I th in k a t
s o m e s ta g e y o u s a i d u n til y o u h a d r e a d c e r t a i n a r ti c l e s o r h e a r d a n y
some things in the media.
10

COLONEL ANDERSON:

N o C h a ir, I m u s t c o r r e c t m y s e l f , p a r a g r a p h

1 3 . 1 i s c o r r e c t.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d o y o u a g r e e w i t h m e th a t i t s e e m s to b e

in c o n s is t e n t w i t h w h a t y o u to l d m e e a r li e r o n .
COLONEL ANDERSON:

I a g r e e w i t h y o u s ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s N o r m a n d o y o u w a n t to t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. G iv e n y o u r e v i d e n c e
C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n i f – if I f o l l o w i t p r o p e r ly i t r e a l ly d i d n o t m a t t e r t o
y o u w h e t h e r t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n M in is te r s o r n o t th e r e b e c a u s e
a c c o r d i n g t o y o u D IR C O h a d a p p r o v e d a n d t h e r e w e r e o v e r f li g h t
20

c le a r a n c e s . I s t h a t h o w y o u lo o k e d a t th e m a t t e r ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o a t w h a t p o i n t t h e n d i d y o u r e a l is e t h a t
it n o t – o u g h t n o t t o h a v e h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e w i t h t h a t i n m i n d
s u p p o s i n g t h a t o n e ju s t g o e s b y t h e a p p r o v a l s o n e g o e s b y D I R C O ’s
a p p r o v a l s . W it h th a t i n m i n d k n o w i n g t h a t y o u – I h a v e r e c e iv e d t h e s e

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d o c u m e n ts w h y w o u l d th e n – w h y w o u l d i t m a t te r w h e th e r i t o u g h t o r
n o t – i t o u g h t o r o u g h t n o t t o h a v e la n d e d a t t h e W a te r k l o o f B a s e ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : O n c e a g a in C h a i r th e c o m m e n t t h a t I m a d e is
n o t i n my – I a m n o t – I s h o u ld n o t h a v e m a d e th a t c o m m e n t , l e t m e p u t
it t h a t w a y b e c a u s e i t i s n o t m y a r e a o f r e s p o n s i b il it y o f w h a t th e
p u r p o s e o f t h e f li g h t is .

M y p u r p o s e is t o f a c il it a t e th e a r r iv a l

procedures and the departure procedures.

But I made that comment

w h e n I w it n e s s e d a l l t h e t h in g s t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g .

T h e tr a d i ti o n a l

d a n c e s , t h e a d d it i o n a l h e li c o p t e r s th a t is w h e n I r e a l is e d t h a t th is w a s
10

a c t u a ll y s u p p o s e d t o t a k e p l a c e a t a c o m m e r c ia l a ir fi e ld .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i t mi g h t n o t b e y o u r r e s p o n s i b il i ty b u t i t m a y t h a t
y o u – i t m i g h t n o t b e r i g h t to t a k e a v i e w t h a t a s l o n g a s t h e r e w a s t h e
c le a r a n c e y o u s h o u ld n o t h a v e b o t h e r e d a b o u t a n y t h i n g e l s e b e c a u s e i s
it n o t th e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u w o u l d n o t h a v e l ik e d t o b e p a r ty to a n y t h in g
t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n i ll e g a l o r i m p r o p e r a n d i f t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g th a t
y o u t h o u g h t w a s i m p r o p e r y o u w o u l d h a v e f e l t a t e a s e t o r a i s e i t w it h
s o m e b o d y a n d s a y, s h o u l d t h i s r e a l ly b e h a p p e n i n g ? W h a t is t h i s d o n e
b e c a u s e t e r m s o f t h e r u le s i t s h o u l d n o t b e d o n e ? I d o n o t w a n t t o b e

20

p a r t y t o a n y t h in g th a t i s i m p r o p e r o r u n l a w f u l .
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : C h a ir p e r s o n in m y t i m e w o r k in g w it h t h e – w i t h
D IR C O I h a v e n e v e r h a d a n y r e a s o n t o q u e s ti o n a n y o f t h e ir – t h e
fl ig h ts t h a t a r r i v e d a t W a t e r k lo o f a n d t h i s w a s a u n i q u e c a s e i n m y
o p i n i o n . B e c a u s e t h e – w i t h th e n u m b e r o f g u e s ts i t – i t – I h a v e n e v e r
e x p e r i e n c e d i t i n th is w a y. T h a t is w h y I t h o u g h t t h a t m a y b e t h i n g s –

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t h e y c o u ld h a v e u s e d a n o th e r v e n u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t is t h a t n o t a l l th e m o r e r e a s o n w h y y o u w o u l d

e n t i tl e d t o a s k q u e s ti o n s b e c a u s e s o m e t h i n g c o m p l e t e ly u n u s u a l s a y,
w e h a v e n e v e r d o n e a n y t h i n g l ik e t h i s , is t h is r i g h t ? I s i t p r o p e r ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : W i t h my d i s c u s s i o n s w i th A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e
h e m e n ti o n e d t o m e e v e r y ti m e t h a t I s p o k e t o h i m o n th e te l e p h o n e a n d
in p e r s o n h e m e n t io n e d t o m e t h a t o u r P r e s i d e n t is a w a r e o f t h i s fl ig h t
a n d t h a t h e k n o w s a b o u t t h i s fl ig h t . N o w w h e n I w a s s t il l t h e o ff ic e r in
c h a r g e o f m o v e m e n ts I h a d fi v e p r i m a r y o b j e c ts – o b j e c ti v e s a n d t h a t
10

w a s t o n e v e r – t o a v o i d a n e m b a r r a s s m e n t t o t h e P r e s id e n t , th e D e p u ty
P r e s i d e n t , t h e M i n i s t e r o f D e f e n c e , th e C h ie f o f t h e D e fe n c e F o r c e a n d
t h e C h i e f o f t h e A ir F o r c e .

I s a i d I w i ll e n s u r e t h a t t h e y w i ll n o t b e

e m b a r r a s s e d b u t b y t h e – b u t t h e w a y A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e c o n s t a n t ly
r e fe r r e d to th e k n o w l e d g e o f t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h i s f li g h t I d i d n o t f e e l i n
m y p o s i ti o n I c a n q u e r y o r q u e s ti o n th is .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t o f c o u r s e w o u l d y o u r a t ti t u d e n o t o f n o t w a n ti n g

t o d o a n y t h in g t h a t w o u ld e m b a r r a s s t h e P r e s i d e n t i n c l u d e n o t w a n ti n g
t o b e p a r t y t o a n y t h i n g t h a t m a y b e i m p r o p e r o r m a y b e il l e g a l?
B e c a u s e th e n t h e Pr e s i d e n t m ig h t th e n b e a s s o c i a t e d w i t h s o m e t h i n g
20

i m p r o p e r.

W o u ld t h a t n o t m a k e y o u s a y, n o b u t t h e n i t m e a n s t h i n g s

m u s t b e d o n e p r o p e r ly i f t h is is a s s o c ia t e d w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t

t h is w a s th e w is h o f t h e P r e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w a n te d to d o …
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : N o I w a n te d to e n s u r e …

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CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t e v e r w a s n e c e s s a r y t o m a k e s u r e h is w is h

m a t e r i a lis e d ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Then – then

m o v i n g f o r w a r d th e n y o u w e r e – a f t e r t h a t in t e r a c ti o n w i t h t h e C h i e f o f
t h e A ir fo r c e w h a t h a p p e n e d to y o u ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : C h a i r p e r s o n t h e n t h e r e w a s a b o a r d o f in q u i r y
t h a t w a s c o n v e n e d w i th I t h i n k L i e u te n a n t G e n e r a l M g w e b i th a t w a s th e
10

P r e s i d e n t o f th a t b o a r d a n d I w a s p l a c e d o n s p e c i a l l e a v e I th i n k o n t h e
3 M a y o r t h e 2 M a y a n d I d i d n o t r e t u r n to w o r k e v e n u n t il a ft e r I
r e tir e d .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e r e i s a ls o – y o u a l s o lo d g e d y o u
a g r e e w i t h t h e r e c o r d t h a t is c o n t a i n e d i n F F4 w h i c h is th e B o a r d o f
I n q u i r y r e c o r d a l o f y o u r e v i d e n c e b e f o r e th e – b e f o r e th e b o a r d .
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s is – t h a t is th e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u

gave.
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d a ls o w h a t is c o n t a i n e d fr o m p a g e 9 is
t h e a ff id a v i t w h ic h y o u h a v e a lr e a d y i d e n ti f ie d t h a t y o u h a d f il e d w i t h
the board at the time.
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h e n y o u l o d g e d a c o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e t h a t .

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y, s o r r y, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o g o b a c k t o w h a t y o u s a id .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : E a r li e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f e w m in u te s e a r li e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t p o s s ib l e t h a t y o u r d e s i r e to m a k e s u r e th a t i f t h is
is w h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t w is h e d t o h a p p e n i t s h o u ld h a p p e n n a m e ly w h a t
10

M r K o l o a n e h a d s a id t o y o u ? I s i t p o s s i b l e t h a t y o u r d e s ir e to m a k e
s u r e t h a t t h a t w is h o f t h e P r e s id e n t m a te r ia li s e d m a y h a v e in f lu e n c e d
y o u i n a n y w a y to o v e r lo o k o n e o r o th e r t h i n g t h a t m a y b e y o u s h o u l d
n o t h a v e o v e r l o o k e d o r t h a t m a y b e y o u s h o u ld h a v e r a is e d w i t h s o m e
o ffic i a ls t o s a y, b u t th is th i n g lo o k s n o t r i g h t?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

N o C h a ir t h a t i s w h y I c o n s ta n tl y in a ll t h e

m e e ti n g s r e i t e r a t e d to t h e m t h a t w e n e e d t o h a v e th e o v e r fl ig h t
c le a r a n c e a n d t h e o v e r fl ig h t c l e a r a n c e i s s o m e th i n g t h a t i s b e t w e e n
D IR C O a n d t h e A ir fo r c e C o m m a n d P o s t . I h a v e n o s a y i n t h a t p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :
response.

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

J u s t r e la t i n g to t h a t

W o u ld y o u t h e n s a y i f y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u h a d n o r o le t o

p l a y in s o f a r a s th e i n t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n D I R C O a n d C o m m a n d a r e
c o n c e r n e d w o u l d y o u a g r e e th e n m a y b e it w a s n o t a p p r o p r i a t e f o r y o u
t o – a l t h o u g h y o u d i d n o t p u t p r e s s u r e o n Wa r r a n t O ff ic e N ts h i s i t o
a c t u a ll y m e n t io n t h a t b u t a r e y o u r e f u s i n g t h is is t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s w is h .

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W o u l d y o u a g r e e w i th m e t h a t m a y b e t h a t w a s n o t p r o p e r b e c a u s e i t
w a s n o t y o u r a r e a a c c o r d i n g t o w h a t y o u te lli n g t h e C h a i r ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : C h a ir I d i d n o t p h o n e W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N ts h i s i .
H e p h o n e d m e a n d I r e t u r n e d h i s c a l l. I d i d n o t p u t p r e s s u r e o n h i m .
H e – a f te r o u r t e l e p h o n e c o n v e r s a ti o n o n t h e 9 A p r il h e a p p r o v e d o r t h e
A ir f o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t a p p r o v e d t h a t r e q u e s t .

I h a d m e e ti n g s w i t h

A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e a n d M r A s h u c d u r i n g t h a t ti m e a n d I – e v e r y ti m e I
m e n ti o n e d t o t h e m I a m s til l w a i t in g f o r t h e o v e r fli g h t c l e a r a n c e .

If I

w a n t e d t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n W a r r a n t O ff ic e r N ts h i s i I w o u l d h a v e p h o n e d
10

h i m a g a i n a n d s a y, w h e r e is t h i s o v e r fl ig h t c le a r a n c e ? W h y d o I n o t g e t
t h is o v e r fl ig h t c le a r a n c e ? S o I d o n o t t h in k – n o I a m s u r e I d i d n o t p u t
pressure on him.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A lr i g h t l e t u s a c c e p t t h a t i t w a s n o t

p r e s s u r e . W h y w a s i t n e c e s s a r y f o r y o u t o m e n ti o n t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t
according to what Ambassador Koloane the President was aware of the
fl ig h t ?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

C h a ir I c o n v e y e d w h a t A m b a s s a d o r K o lo a n e

t o l d m e . I j u s t c o n v e y e d t h a t a g a i n to W a r r a n t O ff ic e N ts h is i a n d – a n d
t h e t i m e t h a t I h a v e w o r k e d a t W a te r k l o o f i t i s h a s n e v e r h a p p e n e d . I
20

a m n o t a w a r e o f a s i n g l e c a s e w h e r e t h e – w h e r e D IR C O is in v o lv e d
w i t h a r e q u e s t th a t it w a s d e n i e d . A ll t h e r e q u e s t s t h a t I k n o w o f t h a t
c a m e fr o m D IR C O w a s a p p r o v e d b y t h e A ir f o r c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll w h y d i d y o u th in k A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e h a d t o

m e n ti o n t o y o u t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t k n e w a b o u t t h e p l a n s fo r t h e l a n d in g
o f t h e a ir c r a f t?

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C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t w a s a ls o s t r a n g e t o m e b e c a u s e i n a l l t h e
ti m e t h a t I h a v e w o r k e d a t W a te r k l o o f d e a li n g w i t h D I R C O n o b o d y h a s
e v e r a t a n y p l a n n in g m e e t in g o f a n y v is i ti n g H e a d s o f S t a te m e n ti o n e d
t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t i s a w a r e o f th is v is i t . T h a t i s w h y I – it w a s a u n i q u e
case.

I t w a s s o m e t h in g c o m p l e t e ly d i ff e r e n t .

It has never been

m e n ti o n e d t o m e b e f o r e t h a t th e Pr e s i d e n t k n o w s a b o u t t h i s fl i g h t a n d
w e c a n c o n ti n u e .

A t o n e s ta t e I t h i n k i t w a s o n t h e 1 7 A p r il

A m b a s s a d o r K o l o a n e p h o n e d m e a n d h e s a i d h e h a s j u s t r e t u r n e d fr o m
t h e o ffi c e o f th e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t w a n ts t o k n o w i f
10

e v e r y t h i n g is s ti ll o n tr a c k f o r t h i s f li g h t . A n d I o n c e a g a in s a i d to h i m ,
o n c e w e h a v e t h e o v e r f li g h t c l e a r a n c e t h e r e s t o f t h e p r o c e d u r e s w i ll
f a ll in p l a c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u n o t t h i n k a t t h e t i m e h e m e n t i o n e d t o y o u th a t
t h e P r e s id e n t k n e w a b o u t t h e – t h e fl i g h t – th e l a n d i n g o f th e f li g h t o r
t h a t h e w a n te d t o k n o w w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g ? D i d y o u n o t t h i n k t h a t h e
s o u g h t t o p u t p r e s s u r e o n y o u t o e i t h e r e x p e d it e w h a te v e r n e e d e d t o b e
p r o c e s s e d o r to f a c il i ta t e t h e l a n d i n g o f t h e a ir c r a f t b y d o i n g w h a t e v e r
needed to be done?
COLONEL ANDERSON:

20

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e o n l y t i m e I r e a l ly fe l t

pressured in a way was when he phoned me – when Ambassador
K o lo a n e p h o n e d m e t o s a y th a t a ll t h e p a s s e n g e r s a r e n o t g o i n g t o
tr a v e l b y r o a d a n y m o r e th e y a r e n o w g o i n g t o b e tr a v e l li n g i n s e v e n
h e li c o p t e r s a n d t w o fi x e d w i n g a ir c r a f t .

A t t h a t s t a g e I s a id t o h i m ,

A m b a s s a d o r t h e n y o u m u s t fo ll o w t h e s a m e p r o c e d u r e t h a t y o u f o l lo w e d
f o r t h e a ir b u s . A n d I s a i d to h i m a t t h a t s t a g e , i f y o u a r e n o t h a p p y w i th

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t h e p r o c e d u r e s t h e n y o u m u s t p h o n e t h e O ff ic e r C o m m a n d i n g o f t h e
A ir f o r c e C o m m a n d P o s t B r i g a d i e r G e n e r a l L o m b a r d . A n d h e s a i d to m e ,
b u t h e d o e s n o t h a v e h i s t e l e p h o n e n u m b e r.

I s a i d t o h i m , I w i ll

f o r w a r d t h a t t e le p h o n e n u m b e r t o y o u a n d I f o r w a r d e d th a t t e l e p h o n e
n u m b e r t o h i m . H is o ffi c e t e l e p h o n e n u m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k M r K o l o a n e a c c e p te d w h e n h e w a s g iv in g

e v i d e n c e h e r e a t le a s t a t a c e r t a i n s ta g e t h a t h e h a d p u t p r e s s u r e o n
o ffic i a ls c o n n e c te d w i t h W a t e r k lo o f to e x p e d i te t h e a p p r o v a l o f t h e
a u t h o r i s a t io n o f t h e l a n d i n g o f t h e fl i g h t.
10

S o w o u l d y o u c o n s id e r

y o u r s e l f t o h a v e b e e n o n e o f t h e o ff ic ia ls o n w h o m h e p u t p r e s s u r e ?
COLONEL ANDERSON: In the end yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

We – I am not

s u r e w h e th e r y o u w o u ld w a n t to d e a l w it h e a c h a n d e v e r y a r e a o f
d is p u te t h a t y o u r a is e i n th e – i n s o fa r a s it r e l a te s t o th e J C P S R e p o r t.
COLONEL ANDERSON: Hm.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t – b u t g e n e r a l ly w h a t y o u h a d r e a d t h e
r e p o r t a n d a f t e r y o u r e a d th e r e p o r t y o u l o d g e d a c o m p l a i n t to t h e
P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
20

C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e – a d e c is i o n f r o m t h e c u r r e n t
P r o t e c t o r – P u b li c P r o t e c t o r w a s a ls o f u r n is h e d to y o u r a t to r n e y s
in d i c a t in g th a t t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r w a s o f t h e v i e w t h a t b e c a u s e t h e
B o a r d o f In q u ir y h a d c l e a r e d y o u t h e r e f o r e w a s n o n e e d fo r h e r t o – t o
p u r s u e t h e m a t t e r.

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C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s . A n d w h a t w a s t h e n a t u r e o f y o u r

c o m p la i n t t o t h e P u b li c Pr o te c to r ?
COLONEL ANDERSON: My – the reason why we have approached the
P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r w a s t h a t d u r i n g t h e c l u s t e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n I w a s n e v e r
g iv e n t h e o p p o r t u n i ty t o e x p l a i n m y s i d e o f t h e s to r y.

I got a telephone

c a l l fr o m a W a r r a n t O ff ic e r t o s a y t o m e th a t Br ig a d i e r G e n e r a l M a k e t w a
w a n ts t o s e e m e . B u t t h e y d i d n o t t e ll m e i n c o n n e c t io n w i t h w h a t . A t
t h a t s t a g e I w a s a lr e a d y – b e c a u s e I w a s o n s p e c i a l l e a v e I w a s a lr e a d y
10

o n m y w a y t o o u r f a r m i n B r a n d fo n t e i n . S o I s a i d to h e r, I a m n o t g o i n g
t o tu r n a r o u n d n o w w h a t is t h e p r o b le m ?

I never heard from them

a g a in . Th e n e x t w a s a l e t te r f r o m t h e C h i e f o f t h e Ai r f o r c e ’s o ff ic e w i t h
a n u m b e r o f q u e s ti o n s a n d i n th a t l e t te r o f t h e C h ie f o f t h e A ir f o r c e it
w a s a ls o in d ic a t e d t h a t t h e c l u s t e r i n v e s ti g a t io n te a m w e r e g o i n g t o b e
b u s y t h a t w e e k e n d a n d I m u s t b e a v a il a b l e t h e F r i d a y o r th e S a tu r d a y i f
t h e y p h o n e m e t h e n I m u s t c o m e i n a n d a s s is t t h e m w i th th e
in v e s t i g a t io n .

They never phoned me.

S o t h e n t h e l e tt e r t h a t I g o t

fr o m t h e A ir f o r c e – t h e C h i e f o f t h e A ir f o r c e h a d a n u m b e r o f q u e s t i o n s .
I a n s w e r e d t h e m a n d I f o r w a r d e d i t b a c k t o t h e C h i e f o f t h e A ir f o r c e ’s
20

o ffic e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t t o d e a l w i t h t h a t a s p e c t . T h e P u b li c
P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t C h a ir I m a y ju s t g iv e r e fe r e n c e s . I t is E x h i b i t F F 2 b
a n d F F2 a .

Yo u w o u l d h a v e t h o s e r e c o r d s th e r e b u t t h e r e i s a le t t e r

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w h ic h s h o w s th a t th e lis t o f q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u w e r e g i v e n w a s a c tu a lly
fr o m

the

cluster

M i n is t e r

–

th e

Directors

General

who

were

in v e s t i g a t in g th e m a t te r.
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Did you get to understand that later that in
f a c t y o u w e r e – th e y h a d s e n t a lis t o f q u e s t io n s f o r y o u t o r e s p o n d t o ?
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s C h a ir I d i d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir r e l e v a n t p a g e s w i ll b e
fr o m p a g e 5 t o 8 a n d 5 t o 9 w h e r e C o l o n e l A n d e r s o n ’s r e s p o n s e s – u p
10

t o 5 3 0 w h e r e h e r r e s p o n s e s a r e c o n t a i n e d a n d th e l is t o f q u e s ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

Then – sorry – and you

h a d in d i c a t e d th a t i n s o fa r a s th e a d v e r s e f in d i n g s in t h e r e p o r t w h ic h is
a tt a c h e d t o t h e s t a t e m e n t o f M s Si n d a n e w h ic h is c o n ta in e d i n E x h i b i t
FF1.
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a t a ll t h e a d v e r s e f in d in g s y o u w e r e n o t
happy with.
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n a n d w e a n s w e r e d
20

t h o s e in t h e – i n th e l e t te r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I n t h e l e t te r. Ye s . T h a n k y o u . C h a ir t h e
– t h a t is t h e e v id e n c e f r o m t h is w i t n e s s . W i th y o u r l e a v e t h a t is a l l y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C o lo n e l A n d e r s o n f o r c o m i n g t o

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
g iv e e v i d e n c e . I d o n o t h a v e a n y q u e s ti o n s s o th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . I f
w e e v e r n e e d y o u t o c o m e b a c k w e w il l a p p r o a c h y o u a g a i n .
C O L O N E L A N D E R S O N : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
COLONEL ANDERSON: Thank you very m uch.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Th a n k y o u M s I n te r p r e t e r I s e e th a t C o l o n e l

A n d e r s o n e n d e d u p n o t n e e d i n g y o u r s e r v ic e s b u t t h a n k y o u th a t y o u
w e r e a r o u n d i n c a s e s h e n e e d e d t o e x p r e s s s o m e th in g in A f r i k a a n s .
Thank you.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k w e w il l n e e d t o ju s t a d j o u r n f o r th e l u n c h

breach.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And then come back at two.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A t t w o o ’ c l o c k y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n th e r e w i ll b e t w o …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Tw o w i tn e s s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o f u r th e r w i t n e s s e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W e w i ll t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k n o w.

resume at two.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .

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W e w i ll

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms W e n tz e l a r e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . G o o d a ft e r n o o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d a f t e r n o o n . P l e a s e s w it c h o n y o u r m ic .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Ye s .

I a m r e a d y C h a ir.

C h a ir t h e n e x t w i t n e s s is g o in g to b e R o n a l d S h i n g a n g e . H e is h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. W il l s o m e b o d y d ir e c t h i m w h e r e t o g o ?
10

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s p le a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y is t h e r e … ? P l e a s e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
a ffi d a v i t .

C h a ir M r S h i n g a n g e h a s d e p o s e d t o a n

It h a s b e e n m a r k e d E X H I B I T E 5 , b e c a u s e i t d e a ls w it h t h e

r e m o v a l o f M in is t e r C o li n C h a b a n e - M a s e k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e m o v a l o f M r M a s e k o n o t M in is t e r M a s e k o .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr Maseko.

Ye s .

M i n i s te r M a s e k o .

Sorry

C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t M in is t e r M a s e k o . Mr M a s e k o .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Mr M a s e k o . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a s e k o .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y. I j u s t n e e d t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a s e k o w a s D G . M r C h a b a n e w a s M i n is te r.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I u n d e r s t a n d . S o r r y C h a ir. J u s t I - I w ill

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
s e t tl e d o w n n o w.

W i t h y o u r a p p r o v a l C h a ir i f h i s s t a te m e n t c o u l d b e

placed into evidence as EXHIBIT E5.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h e a ffi d a v i t b y M r R o n a l d S h i n g a n g e w i ll b e

a d m i t t e d a n d w i ll b e m a r k e d a s E X H I B I T E 5 a n d I th i n k w e m u s t g o
a h e a d a n d h a v e t h e o a t h o r a ffir m a t i o n a d m i n is t e r e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s g e t g o in g .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M R S H I N G A N G E: R o n a l d S h i n g a n g e .
10

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: N o .
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s . I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , th e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th in g b u t t h e t r u th ? I f s o p le a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R S H I N G A N G E: S o h e l p m e G o d .
M R S H I N G A N G E: ( d u l y s w o r n , s t a t e s )
20

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u M r S h in g a n g e a n d t h a n k y o u f o r a v a i li n g

y o u r s e l f t o a s s is t t h e C o m m i s s i o n .

I was told of a concern that you

h a d , b u t b a s e d o n w h a t i s i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t th e r e w o u ld n o t b e g r o u n d s
f o r t h e C o m m i s s io n t o d o a n y t h i n g a l o n g t h e li n e s t h a t y o u w e r e
r e q u e s t in g . D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: I d o .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h a n k y o u f o r a v a i li n g y o u r s e l f t o a s s is t t h e
C o m m i s s i o n w i t h w h a t y o u k n o w.
M R S H I N G A N G E: O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

Mr S h in g a n g e c o u l d y o u

p l e a s e te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t h a s b e e n y o u r h is to r y o f e m p l o y m e n t w i t h t h e
G o v e r n m e n t o f S o u t h A fr ic a ?
M R S H I N G A N G E:

O k a y.

I s t a r te d w o r k in g i n L i m p o p o Pr o v in c e

Department of Finance 1994.
10

1 9 9 7 I m o v e d to D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic

Works … (intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: Well …
M R S H I N G A N G E: S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

Ms W e n tz e l d o y o u w a n t h i m t o i d e n ti fy

h is a ffi d a v it f ir s t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n fir m h is s ig n a tu r e …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d c o n fir m t h a t w h a t is i n t h e a ff i d a v i t is c o r r e c t

before …
20

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s k i n g h i m q u e s ti o n s ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Th e a ffi d a v it i n fr o n t
o f y o u i s t h a t y o u r a ffi d a v it a n d y o u r s ig n a t u r e ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s . I t i s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d y o u c o n f ir m t h e c o n te n ts ?

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s . I d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c o n f ir m t h e m a s c o r r e c t . I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s . I t i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y a n d is t h a t y o u r s i g n a tu r e o n p a g e 3 ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s . I t i s .
CHAIRPERSON: Next to your name?
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s . I t i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y g o a h e a d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

what

c i r c u ms t a n c e s

M r S h i n g a n g e c o u l d y o u te ll th e C h a i r u n d e r

you

came

to

provide

an

a ff id a v i t

to

the

Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you …
M R S H I N G A N G E: U n d e r w h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y. H a v e y o u d e c i d e d t o a b a n d o n
t h e fi r s t q u e s ti o n y o u a s k e d ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. L e t u s - l e t u s s t a r t . M s - M r S h i n g a n g e y o u
h a v e i n p a r a g r a p h 4 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t s e t o u t t h e h is t o r y o f y o u r
employment in - in - within Government.
20

M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t a m o n g t h e p o s i t io n s th a t y o u h a v e

h e l d i n G o v e r n m e n t is t h e p o s i ti o n y o u h e l d b e t w e e n 2 0 0 9 a n d 2 0 1 3 .
T h a t p o s i t io n o f b e i n g A d v is o r t o M i n is te r C h a b a n e …
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e O ff ic e o f th e P r e s i d e n c y ?

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s . I t i s c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d c o u l d y o u p l e a s e te ll th e C h a ir w h a t w a s
y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e ?
M R S H I N G A N G E:

As - a s I s a i d i n th e a ff i d a v i t I w a s h i s a d v is o r

between the period of 2009 to 2013 and before that we had worked
t o g e th e r i n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f E c o n o m ic D e v e l o p m e n t a n d a ls o P u b l ic
Works in Limpopo Province.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - a n d n o t n e c e s s a r ily w i t h h i m .

At some stage

y o u w e r e A c t in g H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t a t P u b l ic W o r k s . Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: J a . Fo r a p e r i o d o f a b o u t t h r e e y e a r s . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: About three years and you were at some stage Chief
E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r o f t h e C o r r i d o r M i n in g R e s o u r c e s C o m p a n y.
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is a p r iv a t e c o m p a n y ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: I t i s a s u b s id ia r y o f L i m p o p o Ec o n o m ic D e v e lo p m e n t
A g e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a p a r a s ta t a l ?
20

M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d a r e y o u c u r r e n tly i n th e e m p l o y o f

Government?
M R S H I N G A N G E: N o . I a m n o t u n f o r tu n a t e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w o u l d l ik e to g o b a c k ?

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M R S H I N G A N G E: N o . I w o u l d n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . I th o u g h t y o u s a id u n fo r t u n a t e l y.
M R S H I N G A N G E: J a w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y. A lr i g h t. Ye s . C o n ti n u e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : In y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u d e a l w i t h th e r e m o v a l o f
M r T h e m b a M a s e k o fr o m t h e G C I S a n d t h e r e p la c e m e n t o f h i m w i th
M r M a n y i . W h e n d i d y o u fi r s t h e a r a b o u t t h is r e m o v a l ?
M R S H I N G A N G E:
Themba.
10

It w a s a w e e k a f te r h is - a f t e r th e r e m o v a l o f

W e w e r e w a lk i n g i n t o a m e e t i n g w i t h M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a n d

then I said - I asked him okay what happened.

Why did you move

T h e m b a ? H e s a y s lo o k I w a s i n s tr u c t e d . S o i t w a s a - r o u g h ly a w e e k
a ft e r h e w a s r e m o v e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s ta n d b y i n s tr u c t e d ?

I n s tr u c te d b y w h o m ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: B y … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

I a m s o r r y.

I may have missed

s o m e t h i n g . Yo u - y o u a n d M in is t e r C h a b a n e w e r e g o in g i n t o a m e e ti n g ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y a b o u t a w e e k a f t e r …
20

M R S H I N G A N G E: A f t e r h e w a s r e m o v e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a s e k o ’s r e m o v a l fr o m G C I S …
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u a s k e d h i m t h e q u e s t io n w h y w a s T h e m b a

removed?
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t h o w y o u p u t i t a n d w h a t w a s h is a n s w e r -

Mr Chabane?
M R S H I N G A N G E: T h a t I w a s in s tr u c te d . T h e n I s a i d - I s h r u g g e d . O h ,
o h o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: T h a t w a s i t . I n e v e r fo ll o w e d u p a s to w h y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: Yo u k n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M R S H I N G A N G E: A n d b y w h o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: B e c a u s e m y c o m m o n a s s u m p t i o n w a s th a t o b v i o u s ly
it c a n o n ly b e o n e p e r s o n w h o c a n i n s tr u c t h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: W i th t h e a p p o i n ti n g a u t h o r i ty w h o is t h e Pr e s i d e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: S o I n e v e r f o l lo w e d u p …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: A n d h e n e v e r t o l d m e I w a s i n s tr u c t e d b y s o a n d s o .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: H e n e v e r to ld m e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t t h a t w a s y o u r o w n …
M R S H I N G A N G E: J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Understanding?
M R S H I N G A N G E: J a .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e r e c o u l d o n ly h a v e b e e n o n e p e r s o n /
M R S H I N G A N G E: J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d w h y d i d y o u n o t a s k a n y q u e s t io n s a b o u t
t h is ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: L o o k a t - a t t h e t i m e i f y o u - if y o u f o l lo w th e t r e n d .
T h e r e w a s a l o t o f m o v e m e n t o f D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l s fr o m o n e d e p a r t m e n t
t o a n o t h e r. S o I - I d i d n o t f in d i t e x tr e m e ly c u r i o u s t o s a y w h y is h e
b e i n g r e m o v e d . S o I j u s t a s s u m e d o k a y. I t is o n e o f t h o s e m o v e m e n t s
10

t h a t a r e b e i n g d o n e f r o m o n e p l a c e t o a n o t h e r, b e c a u s e y o u m u s t
r e m e m b e r th a t i t w a s - w h a t - t h e ( in a u d i b le ) o f t h e n e w a d m i n i s tr a t io n
s o o b v i o u s ly a lo t o f t h e c h a n g e s w e r e s ti ll h a p p e n i n g . S o t h a t is w h y I
n e v e r b o th e r e d t o a s k w h y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d i f Mr M a s e k o h a d b e e n d is m i s s e d w o u ld

y o u h a v e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: J a . D e fi n i t e l y. T h a t w i ll h a v e a t tr a c t e d m y c u r io s i ty
a s to w h y i s h e b e in g d is m i s s e d , b u t b e c a u s e h e w a s b e i n g m o v e d fr o m
o n e d e p a r t m e n t t o a n o th e r I n e v e r t h o u g h t it is a n i n t e r e s ti n g m a t t e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

t e s ti fi e d

b e fo r e

th e

A n d y o u k n o w t h a t t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t h a s

C o m m i s s io n

that

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e t o m o v e M r M a s e k o .

he

did

not

in s tr u c t

Mr

-

H o w d id - d i d y o u k n o w a b o u t

t h is a n d h o w d i d y o u c o m e t o k n o w a b o u t i t ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: A b o u t w h a t ? Th e te s ti m o n y o f th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E:

W e l l a ft e r h is te s t i m o n y - I d i d n o t w a tc h t h e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
t e s ti m o n y - a lo t o f p e o p le p h o n e d m e to s a y is t h is p o s s ib l e w h a t t h e
f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t s a i d . I s a i d l o o k . I d id n o t w a tc h h is t e s ti m o n y, b u t i t
is i m p r o b a b le , b e c a u s e th e r e i s o n ly o n e p e r s o n w h o h a s g o t t h e
powers to remove DGs.

S o t h a t is h o w I e n d u p b e i n g h e r e t o d a y,

because I spoke too much.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Just - just make sure - just make sure we

u n d e r s t a n d . Yo u d i d n o t w a tc h th e e v i d e n c e …
M R S H I N G A N G E: N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s g iv e n b y t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ?
10

M R S H I N G A N G E: I o n ly w a tc h e d t h e r e p e a t i n t h e e v e n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Later?
M R S H I N G A N G E: I d i d n o t w a tc h i t …
CHAIRPERSON: When it was happening?
M R S H I N G A N G E: J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: I w a tc h e d i t a f te r p e o p l e h a d p h o n e d m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: To t e l l m e th is - th is a n d t h a t h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

20

Ye s .

Yo u s a y a l o t o f p e o p l e c a l le d y o u a n d w h a t

w e r e t h e y a s k i n g o r w h a t w e r e t h e y s a y in g e x a c tly ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: Is i t p o s s i b l e t h a t C h a b a n e w i ll h a v e r e m o v e d h is D G
w i t h o u t th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: W i th o u t t h e k n o w l e d g e o f t h e P r e s id e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
M R S H I N G A N G E: H m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R S H I N G A N G E: Is i t - is i t i n h is c h a r a c t e r to d e f y. S o t o s p e a k .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm; and - and why would - why did they phone you to
- t o f in d th a t o u t ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: I s u p p o s e b e c a u s e I w a s h i s a d v is o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I N G A N G E: T h e y w i ll h a v e e x p e c te d m e to k n o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R S H I N G A N G E: W h a t t h e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t th e p o s i t io n w a s ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: A n d t h e n a ls o a l o t o f p e o p le a s s u m e d th a t w e h a d a
c e r t a i n r e l a ti o n s h i p w h i c h w a s c lo s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: S o t h a t i s w h y p r o b a b l y t h e y p h o n e d m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

How

was

your

r e l a ti o n s h i p

w i th

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e ? W a s i t a v e r y g o o d r e l a ti o n s h i p ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: J a . I w il l - I w il l s a y s o . Yo u k n o w I h a v e a G r e e k
fr i e n d w h o s a y s d o n o t t e ll m e t h a t I a m c lo s e to th e M i n is te r. A s k t h e
20

M i n is t e r i f h e is c l o s e to m e . U n f o r tu n a t e ly h e is n o t h e r e to a n s w e r,
b u t I - y e s - y e s C h a ir p e r s o n . I t h i n k w e h a d a g o o d r e la t io n s h ip .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I N G A N G E: H m .
CHAIRPERSON:

D o - d o y o u k n o w h o w h is r e l a ti o n s h i p - t h a t is

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e - h o w h is r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s w i t h M r M a s e k o d u r i n g t h e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
ti m e t h a t t h e y w e r e w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r a t G C I S ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: I t w a s g o o d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I N G A N G E:

I n e v e r s a w a n y te n s i o n b e tw e e n t h e t w o o f t h e m

d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d th a t t h e y w e r e w o r k in g to g e t h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : R i g h t u p t o t h e ti m e t h a t M r M a s e k o w a s r e m o v e d ?
M R S H I N G A N G E:

Ye s .

I n e v e r s a w a n y te n s i o n b e tw e e n t h e t w o o f

them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And were you told by these people who

p h o n e d y o u t h a t t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t h a d s t a te d t h a t M i n i s te r C h a b a n e
h a d m e r e l y u s e d h is n a m e ?
M R S H I N G A N G E: Ye s . T h a t is w h a t t h e y t o l d a n d t h a t is w h a t t h e y t h e y - t h a t w a s th e q u e s t io n . T h e y w e r e a s k in g m e t h a t i s i t p o s s i b l e
t h a t h e c o u l d h a v e d o n e t h a t. I s it i n th e c h a r a c t e r o f M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e
t o d o s o m e t h i n g l ik e t h a t? S o I s a i d n o . I t is n o t p o s s i b l e a n d t h e n I
m e n ti o n e d t o o n e o r t w o p e o p l e th a t l o o k t h is is w h a t I - I k n o w a b o u t
t h e is s u e .
H e t o l d m e s o m e t h i n g li k e t h is - M r C h a b a n e - b e f o r e h e
20

p a s s e d a w a y a n d u n fo r t u n a t e ly th a t is w h a t l e d m e t o b e h e r e t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o f u r th e r q u e s t io n s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . I h a v e n o f u r th e r q u e s t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : U n l e s s y o u C h a ir w o u l d …
CHAIRPERSON: No. Thank …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : L ik e t o a s k s o m e q u e s t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u M r S h i n g a n g e .

T h a n k y o u f o r c o m in g to

s h a r e w i th t h e C o m m i s s i o n w h a t y o u h e a r d a n d w h a t y o u k n e w a s fa r a s
y o u w e r e to ld b y M s - M in is t e r C h a b a n e .
M R S H I N G A N G E: O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
M R S H I N G A N G E: T h a n k s v e r y m u c h .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e e x c u s e d .
M R S H I N G A N G E: T h a n k s a l o t .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Th a n k y o u .

C h a ir, t h e n e x t w it n e s s is

B r e n t S i m o n s w h o p r e v io u s ly t e s ti fi e d , b u t C h a i r y o u w il l r e c a ll t h a t t h e
R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s e n t t o th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t i n r e s p e c t o f h i s te s t i m o n y
w a s p r o v i d e d le s s t h a n 1 4 d a y s b e f o r e h e t e s ti fi e d a n d b e c a u s e o f th a t
it w a s d e c i d e d th a t h e s h o u l d c o m e a n d t e s t if y w i th r e g a r d t o t h e fo r m e r
P r e s i d e n t a t a l a t e r s t a g e . H e i s n o w a v a i la b l e t o te s ti fy a n d I - I w i s h
t o c a ll h i m .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e R u le 3 3 .3 N o ti c e s w e r e s e n t t o t h e f o r m e r

P r e s i d e n t a n d a s o f t o d a y t h e r e h a s b e e n n o r e a c ti o n ?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Al r i g h t . Th a n k y o u . T h e n y o u c a n a d m i n i s t e r
t h e o a t h o r a ff ir m a ti o n .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .

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M R S I M O N S : B r e n t A d r i a n Si m o n s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MR SIMONS: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , th e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th in g b u t t h e t r u th ? I f s o p le a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
10

MR SIMONS: So help me God.
M R S I M O N S : ( d u l y s w or n , s t a t e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c o n f ir m t h a t y o u w i ll o n l y c o v e r w h a t w a s n o t

c o v e r e d p r e v io u s ly, b e c a u s e h e d i d g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d c o v e r e d q u i t e
some ground?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

Commission

and

you

M r Si m o n s y o u p r e v i o u s ly t e s ti f ie d a t t h e
stated

th a t

you

previously

worked

fo r

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e i n - M i n i s t e r C o l in C h a b a n e in th e O ffi c e o f t h e
P r e s i d e n c y a n d y o u la t e r w o r k e d f o r h i m in th e D P S A . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R S I M O N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : N o w d u r in g 2 0 1 7 y o u s u b m i t t e d a n a ff id a v i t …
CHAIRPERSON:

May - maybe we can just too refresh our memories.

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M r Si m o n s y o u w e r e - y o u w o r k e d i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y b e tw e e n w h ic h
y e a r a n d w h ic h y e a r - fr o m w h ic h y e a r to w h ic h y e a r ?
MR SIMONS:

I s t a r t e d i n - i n - jo in e d th e M i n is t e r in - i n t h e

Presidency in January 2014.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : J a a n d t h e n r e m a in e d w i t h h i m u n t il h e - h e p a s s e d o n i n
t h e a c c i d e n t i n t h e fo ll o w i n g y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u a n d - a n d y o u w e r e h is - w a s
it C h i e f o f S t a ff o r A d v is o r ?
10

MR SIMONS:

N o , n o . I w a s - I w a s S p o k e s p e r s o n f o r th e M in is t e r i n

the Presidency …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR SIMONS:

A n d t h e n a l s o S p o k e s p e r s o n f o r th e M in is t e r w h e n h e

h a d h is - h i s r o l e a s M i n i s te r f o r P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

Yo u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 4 o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t th a t i n 2 0 1 7 y o u s u b m i t t e d a n a ff i d a v i t t o th e S e c r e t a r y o f
P a r li a m e n t a n d t h e S p e a k e r o f t h e N a t io n a l A s s e m b ly t o r e f u t e t h e p r e t h e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t’s - M r J a c o b Z u m a ’s - d e n i a l t h a t h e h a d u s e d h is
20

p o s i ti o n t o s e c u r e G o v e r n m e n t c o n tr a c ts w i t h f a m ily m e m b e r s . Is th a t
correct?
M R S I M O N S : T h a t is c o r r e c t . J a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir, th is d o c u m e n t i s n o t a n n e x e d to

M r Si m o n s ’ a ff id a v i t, b u t i t h a s b e e n o b ta i n e d b y th e C o m m i s s io n . I f I
m i g h t r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 1 - 4 - 6 o f th e b u n d l e i n fr o n t o f y o u .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e b u n d l e is E X H I B I T J J 1 .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s . T h e b u n d l e is E X H I B I T J J 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: What is the page?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Page 1-4-6.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Is th a t u n s i g n e d c o p y o f t h e s t a t e m e n t y o u

s u b m i tt e d t o t h e S p e a k e r o f P a r li a m e n t?
M R S I M O N S : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

And if you have regard to BAS page 1-4-7

p a r a g r a p h 11 . I t is s a id :
“ W h il e

answering

P a r li a m e n t a r y

q u e s ti o n s

on

Thursday 22 June 2017 our President once again
b l a ta n tl y li e d to th e p e o p le o f S o u t h A f r ic a w h e n h e
d e c l a r e d t h a t h e h a d n e v e r a s k e d a n y o n e to t a k e
c a r e o f o r h e lp a fa m i ly m e m b e r s e c u r e a c o n tr a c t . ”
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R S I M O N S : J a . I t is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o c o n f ir m . D o y o u c o n f ir m t h e c o n te n ts o f t h a t
s t a te m e n t - u n s i g n e d s t a t e m e n t - to b e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t?
20

M R S I M O N S : I d o C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir t h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f s t a t e m e n t s th e n

o r a v e r m e n ts m a d e i n th e s ta t e m e n t w h ic h a r e g o in g t o b e d e a l t w it h i n
e v i d e n c e a n d h a v e e x p r e s s - e x p r e s s ly b e i n g d e a l t w i th i n M r S i m o n s ’
a ffi d a v i t b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n . S o I w ill n o t tr a v e r s e th e m h e r e …

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C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I n a n y r e a l d e ta il …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

B u t w o u ld - I w o u l d li k e t o p o i n t o u t t o y o u

C h a ir is t h a t t h r e e i s a tr a n s c r ip t - a n u n r e v is e d H a n s a r d - fr o m
H a n s a r d f o r th is d a t e - T h u r s d a y 2 2 J u n e 2 0 1 7 a n d y o u w il l f i n d t h a t
now at page 1-5-1 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

A n d is t h is t h e tr a n s c r i p t th a t y o u w e r e

r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M R S I M O N S : I n - i n fa c t a t t h a t s t a g e I w a s o b v i o u s l y a s a n o r d i n a r y
S o u th A fr ic a n a n d a s a P u b l ic S e r v a n t . I w a s r e a d i n g t h e n e w s p a p e r s .
Wa t c h in g te le v i s i o n e tc e t e r a a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s r e s p o n d i n g t o - t o a
q u e s t io n w h e r e I t h i n k i t w a s o n e o f t h e D A m e m b e r s w h o h a d a s k e d
w h e t h e r h e h e lp e d D u d u z a n e o r a n y o n e e l s e w i t h b u s in e s s i n te r e s t s .
I f h e h a d b r o u g h t p e o p le t o a n y M i n i s te r s a n d I th o u g h t th a t
t h a t w a s in c o r r e c t , b e c a u s e a n d t h a t i s w h y I a c t u a l ly s a t d o w n a n d a n d d r e w u p t h is a ff id a v i t , b u t I s h o u l d b r in g i t t o y o u r a t te n ti o n
C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I d o s a y r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g t h a t I w r o t e it i n m y

20

c a p a c i ty a s a S e n io r P u b l ic S e r v a n t a s w e l l a s a n A N C M e m b e r a n d a n d fr o m a b o u t 2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 5 - e n d o f 2 0 1 5 o n w a r d s I c o n s is t e n t ly
s u b m i tt e d a v e r y s i m il a r r e p o r t t o th e O ff ic e o f th e S e c r e ta r y - G e n e r a l o f
t h e A N C s a y i n g t h a t t h e P r e s id e n t h a s - h a s b r o u g h t th e - th e
o r g a n i s a t io n i n t o d is r e p u t e .
P o in t in g o u t t h i s a n d - a n d p r o v id i n g v e r y s i m i la r r e s p o n s e s

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t o - to w h a t I d i d i n m y - m y a ffi d a v i t . I r e c e i v e d n o r e s p o n s e s fr o m m y
SG.
CHAIRPERSON: And - so you say you sent to the Secretary-General of
t h e A N C o f t h e ti m e …
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: A number of such …
M R S I M O N S : S u b m is s i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t te r s o r e m a il s o r w h a t e v e r ?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s e n d t h e m i n w r i ti n g ?
M R S I M O N S : I s e n t t h e m i n w r i ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t i s y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n o f a b o u t h o w m a n y y o u

might have sent?
M R S I M O N S : P r o b a b ly a b o u t e ig h t o r n in e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t e ig h t o r n in e ?
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n s ta n c e s w h e r e y o u f e l t - a n d t h e y a ll r e l a te to th e

P r e s i d e n t o r d i d th e y a ls o r e l a te to o th e r m e m b e r s o f t h e le a d e r s h i p o f
the ANC?
20

M R S I M O N S : T h e y - t h e y a l l p a r t ic u l a r ly d e a lt w i th t h e fa c t th a t a t th a t
s t a g e I b e li e v e d t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s - w a s d o in g m o r e h a r m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S I M O N S : To b o th t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d th e c o u n tr y a t th a t s t a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : A n d o b v i o u s ly a s y o u w o u l d s e e in t h e a ffi d a v i t w h a t l e d

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
t o s o m e d i s c i p l i n a r y s te p s a g a in s t m e a s w e ll w i t h i n t h e P u b li c S e c t o r
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S I M O N S : Wa s b e c a u s e o f …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SIMONS: Statements I made …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S I M O N S : I n m y c a p a c i ty a s a n A N C M e m b e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R S I M O N S : To o t h e r o r g a n is a ti o n a l m e m b e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S I M O N S : S o - s o y e s w e w e r e d is c u s s in g it a n d - a n d i f y o u r e c a l l
m y e a r l ie r te s ta m e n t . I a c t u a l ly t o l d y o u t h a t M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w a s o f
s u c h a n a tu r e t h a t - t h a t h e w o u ld s p e a k p o l it ic s t o y o u …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SIMONS:

A n d w h e n e v e r h e h a d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty a n d h e w a s a ls o

in t e r e s te d i n k n o w i n g o r tr y i n g t o f i n d o u t w h a t t h e v i e w s o f t h e c i ti z e n s
were …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R S I M O N S : R e g a r d i n g t h e Pr e s id e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SIMONS: And regarding the ANC as a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SIMONS: As a Government.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
M R S I M O N S : S o - s o w e h a d t h a t ty p e o f i n te r a c t io n v e r y c o n s t a n t ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Hm.

D i d y o u k e e p c o p ie s o f t h e e m a i ls o r

le t t e r s th a t y o u s e n t to t h e …
MR SIMONS: Hm. Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

S e c r e ta r y - G e n e r a l o f t h e A N C r e l a t i n g to t h is - t o

t h e s e v a r io u s c o n c e r n s t h a t y o u h a d ?
M R S I M O N S : I a m s u r e i f I - i f I s e n t i t v i a G m a il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : I s h o u ld b e a b l e to h a v e s o m e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : S o m e r e c o r d s in m y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R S I M O N S : M y G m a il , b e c a u s e s o m e o f m y e v i d e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S I M O N S : Wa s n o t b a s e d o n - o n m y G o v e r n m e n t e m a ils .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S I M O N S : I t w a s s o m e o f t h e - t h e e v id e n c e o f m e e ti n g s t h a t I - I
w i t h d r e w fr o m m y - my G m a i l a c c o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I f y o u c a n fi n d th e m . T h a t w o u l d b e v e r y h e lp f u l

20

t o s e n d t o t h e C o m m is s i o n .
M R S I M O N S : I w il l d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o p ie s a s w e ll a n d - a n d t h e n to P a r li a m e n t d i d y o u
s e n d o n ly o n e o r d i d y o u a l s o s e n d a n u m b e r o f t h e m t o P a r li a m e n t?
MR SIMONS:

I s e n t i t t o t h e O ffi c e o f t h e S p e a k e r o f P a r li a m e n t.

s e n t it to th e D e p u t y S p e a k e r o f P a r l ia m e n t .

Page 91 of 155

I

I a ls o s e n t t o t h e - th e

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C h i e f W h ip o f t h e - th e A N C a t P a r l i a m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

Ar e y o u s a y in g y o u s e n t th e s a m e o n e t o a l l

t h o s e p e o p l e o r d o y o u s e n d d i ff e r e n t o n e s to d i ff e r e n t p e o p le ?
M R S I M O N S : N o . T h e - t h e s i g n e d a ffi d a v i t I a c tu a lly - I s e n t i t t o a l l
of them. Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o - s o w i t h r e g a r d t o P a r li a m e n t t h is - th e
a ffi d a v i t is th e o n ly o n e t h a t y o u s e n t t o s o m e b o d y in P a r l ia m e n t
e x p r e s s in g y o u r c o n c e r n ?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:
t h is .

So maybe just to make sure one - one understands

Yo u s a y s s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d 2 0 1 6 o r t h e r e a b o u t y o u b e c a m e

a w a r e fr o m w h a t y o u r e a d i n th e m e d ia t h a t in P a r l ia m e n t t h e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t h a d b e e n a s k e d a q u e s t i o n t o w h ic h h e r e s p o n d e d b y s a y i n g
h e h a d n e v e r tr i e d t o h e l p a n y m e m b e r o f th e f a m il y g e t G o v e r n m e n t
business.
Is th a t r i g h t? Is th a t - is t h a t w h a t y o u b e c a m e a w a r e o f t h a t
p r o m p te d y o u t o p r e p a r e t h e a ff id a v i t?
20

M R S I M O N S : Ye s . I t w a s a l s o - t h a t i s w h y I a m s a y i n g t h a t i f I c a n
g e t c o p ie s a n d I - I w il l g o a n d lo o k i n m y G m a i l a c c o u n t f o r s o m e o f
the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : T h e o r i g i n a l d o c u m e n ts I s u b m i tt e d t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
M R S I M O N S : T h e O ffi c e o f t h e S e c r e ta r y - G e n e r a l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : A n d t h e n y o u w i ll s e e t h a t t h e r e i s a c o n s i s t e n c y i n t e r m s
of …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : M y - m y c o n c e r n s r a is e d a s - a s b o t h a m e m b e r a n d a s a
P u b l ic S e r v a n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s ,

but

your

-

what

prompted

the

a ff id a v i t

p a r t ic u l a r ly is t h a t y o u h a d o r u n d e r s to o d t h a t h e h a d g iv e n i n f o r m a ti o n
10

in P a r li a m e n t w h i c h y o u c o n s i d e r e d n o t t o b e tr u e …
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u p r e p a r e d t h e a ff id a v i t a n d s e n t i t t o

P a r li a m e n t t o b r i n g i t to t h e ir a t t e n t i o n t h a t a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d
h e h a d t o l d P a r l i a m e n t s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s n o t tr u e ?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s . C o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D i d y o u w a tc h t h e q u e s t io n ti m e r e c o r d i n g s o n
- o n t e l e v is io n o r d id y o u r e a d i t i n t h e m e d i a ?
MR SIMONS:
20

In fact at that stage whenever the President was

a n s w e r i n g q u e s ti o n s a t P a r l ia m e n t it w a s i n o u r n a tu r e t o - t o - a s
G o v e r n m e n t c o m m u n ic a t o r s a n d I t h i n k t h a t to a c t u a l ly m a k e s u r e th a t
w e h a v e t i m e t o w a tc h .

I f w e d id n o t w a t c h i t a n d th e n w e w o u l d

o b v i o u s l y tr y a n d f o ll o w u p l a te r, b u t I o b v i o u s ly fo ll o w e d u p v ia
t e l e v i s i o n w h e n th e P r e s i d e n t w a s a d d r e s s in g P a r l ia m e n t a s w e l l la t e r
when I read

th r o u g h

all the

o n li n e a n d - a n d a c t u a l p h y s ic a l

Page 93 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
p u b lic a ti o n s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d h a v e y o u h a d a c h a n c e t o r e a d t h is

e x tr a c t fr o m H a n s a r d f o r T h u r s d a y 2 2 J u n e 2 0 1 7 ? T h a t I r e f e r r e d y o u
t o e a r l i e r t h a t s ta r t s a t p a g e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e a g a i n w a s i t?
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t s t a r ts a t p a g e 1 - 5 - 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MR SIMONS: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A r e y o u a b l e t o t e l l t h e C h a ir …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Did he …?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: What …?
CHAIRPERSON:

Wa s t h e a n s w e r y e s th a t y o u h a v e h a d a c h a n c e t o

r e a d it ?
M R S I M O N S : I r e a d th r o u g h i t. Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A r e y o u a b l e t o t e ll t h e C h a ir w h a t s t a te m e n t
it is th a t y o u t h o u g h t w a s u n tr u e …
M R S I M O N S : W e ll …
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a t p r o m p te d y o u r a ff i d a v i t ?
20

M R S I M O N S : Ye s . O n p a g e 1 …
CHAIRPERSON:

O r m a y b e le t u s - l e t u s p u t i t t h i s w a y. I s t h is th e

s t a te m e n t t h a t p r o m p te d y o u t o p r e p a r e t h e a ffi d a v it c o n t a i n e d i n t h is
e x tr a c t o f t h e - fr o m t h e H a n s a r d ?
M R S I M O N S : T h e b a s is o f t h a t s t a t e m e n t , y e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. A l r i g h t .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
MR SIMONS: Because …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is h e r e ?
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h a t’s f i n e , t h e n y o u c a n g o a h e a d to id e n t i fy

it .
MR SIMONS:

Okay on page 156 the response is, where the President

then says,
“ S e c o n d ly I h a v e n e v e r h e a r d t h a t D u d u z a n e ’s b u s i n e s s h a s
b e n e fi t e d fr o m th e G o v e r n m e n t .
10

W h e r e I h a v e i n fl u e n c e d b y

s a y in g , g iv e h i m s o m e t h in g , I h a v e n e v e r d o n e th a t ” .
N o w t h a t is p a r ti c u la r ly to D u d u z a n e , n o w I ’ m n o t f a m il ia r o f
a n y o f t h e r e l a ti o n s b e t w e e n t h e P r e s i d e n t , h i s s o n a n d w h a te v e r
b u s i n e s s v e n tu r e s h e m ig h t h a v e g o n e o n b u t w h a t I t h e n d i d w a s , o n
t h e b a s is o f t h a t a n p r e v i o u s s t a t e m e n ts m a d e b y th e p r e s i d e n t I t h e n
s a i d t h a t l o o k , t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s , i n f a c t , b r o u g h t f a m i ly m e m b e r s t o
M i n is t e r s t h a t I w a s a w a r e o f a n d p a r t ic u l a r ly t h e M i n i s te r t h a t I w o r k e d
w i t h a n d o n th a t b a s is I th e n d r a ft e d t h e s t a te m e n t a n d s u b m i t te d i t t o
t h e – t h e a ff i d a v i t to P a r li a m e n t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

20

MR SIMONS:

A n d w h ic h M i n is t e r a r e y o u r e f e r r in g t o ?

I’ m r e f e r r i n g t o M i n i s te r C o ll in s C h a b a n e , t h e l a t e

M i n is t e r … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t t o g o b a c k o n y o u r A N C m e m b e r s h i p a t th a t

ti m e w e r e y o u a lr e a d y a m e m b e r o f t h e A N C a t t h e ti m e o f r e f e r r in g t h is
a ffi d a v i t t o P a r l ia m e n t ?
MR SIMONS:

Ye s .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
MR SIMONS:

A n d w h y d i d y o u b e l i e v e i t n o t t o b e tr u e ?

W e ll o n e p a r ti c u l a r i n c i d e n t w h ic h I r e f e r t o in t h e

…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y a g a i n M s W e n t z e l I m a y h a v e r e f e r r e d to

2 0 1 6 , i t a p p e a r s fr o m t h is e x t r a c t fr o m t h e H a n s a r d th a t t h e d a y t o
w h ic h th e tr a n s c r ip ts r e la t e s is T h u r s d a y 2 2 J u n e 2 0 1 7 s o d o e s t h a t
s o u n d m o r e o r l e s s r i g h t i n te r ms o f th e y e a r ?
MR SIMONS:
10

Ye s , i n f a c t I t h in k i n th e a ffi d a v i t I s u b m i tt e d to

P a r li a m e n t I a l s o m a k e r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t d a te ja .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y, t h a n k y o u , o k a y t h e n I t h i n k t h e q u e s t io n

t h a t M s W e n tz e l h a d a s k e d y o u w a s w h y d i d y o u t h i n k th a t t h e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t h a d s a i d s o m e t h i n g t h a t w a s n o t tr u e , w h y d i d y o u t h i n k it
w a s n o t tr u e ?
MR SIMONS:

Th e r e w a s a p a r t ic u l a r i n c id e n t i n 2 0 1 4 w h e r e th e

N a t io n a l D e v e lo p m e n t A g e n c y w a s l a u n c h i n g t h e S o l o m o n M a h la n g u
S c h o la r s h i p F u n d a n d t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s s c h e d u l e d t o a d d r e s s t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r m e e ti n g a n d th e M i n is t e r w a s i n v i t e d to o p e n th a t m e e ti n g
a n d o n t h a t d a y i n f a c t , w e h a d s e c u r e d t h e M in is t e r to a d d r e s s
20

s t u d e n ts a t a c o l l e g e i n R a n d f o n te i n a n d t h a t w a s c o n f ir m e d , M i n i s te r
h a d c o m m i t t e d t h a t h e w a s g o in g t o d o i t b u t w e th e n a ls o r e c e iv e d a
r e q u e s t f o r th e M in is t e r t o i n t r o d u c e , o p e n l y t h e p a r t ic u l a r N Y D A
f u n c t i o n o n t h a t Fr i d a y m o r n i n g . N o w o n t h a t p a r tic u la r d a y, o b v io u s ly
t h e M i n i s te r – w e w e r e s t a n d i n g a r o u n d in t h e f o y e r o f th e S a n d t o n
I n t e r n a ti o n a l C o n v e n t io n C e n tr e , a ft e r t h e P r e s i d e n t h a d s p o k e n , I w a s

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
s t a n d in g l i te r a ll y, I w a s n e x t to t h e M i n i s t e r w e w e r e h a v i n g a t a l k .
N o w o b v io u s ly p r o to c o l d i c t a t e s if t h e P r e s i d e n t c o m e s t o a M i n is t e r
t h a t y o u d o n ’ t r e a ll y s t a n d a r o u n d , y o u g iv e th e m t h e ir s p a c e s o I w o u ld
o b v i o u s l y h a v e w a lk e d a w a y t h e n b u t n o t t o f a r, I m e a n I w a s c le a r ly – I
c o u l d s e e th e M in is t e r, I c o u ld s e e t h e P r e s id e n t a n d w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t
w e r e s e v e r a l y o u n g m e n . N o w a s th e Pr e s id e n t l e f t t h e M i n is t e r c a m e
t o m e a n d h e t h e n in tr o d u c e d m e t o th e s e y o u n g m e n a n d t o l d m e th a t
h e w a n t e d m e t o d e a l w it h t h e m i n t e r m s o f m e e t i n g s e tc e t e r a a n d o n
t h a t b a s is I w a s t h e n i n tr o d u c e d t o s o m e o f th e s e m e n a n d s o m e o f
10

t h e m h a d th e s u r n a m e o f Z u m a a n d o n e i n p a r ti c u la r, r e f e r r e d t o
K h u l u b u s e Z u m a a s h is f a t h e r f i g u r e a n d o n t h a t b a s is w e le f t w i t h t h e
M i n is t e r a n d w e w e n t t o t h e – I th i n k it w a s W e s tc o l F u r t h e r E d u c a ti o n
a n d Tr a in i n g C o ll e g e w h e r e G C I ’s – th e G o v e r n m e n t C o m m u n i c a t io n s
a n d I n fo r m a t i o n S y s t e m h a d a c t u a l ly o r g a n is e d a f u n c ti o n p o s t S t a t e o f
h e N a ti o n a d d r e s s fo r t h e M i n i s te r.
S o t h e c o l le g e s t u d e n ts w e r e a s k i n g q u e s ti o n s v e r y d ir e c t ly
r e l a t e d t o t h e ir f u tu r e i n th is c o u n tr y, h o w w o u l d th e y b e a b l e t o
c o n tr i b u t e a s k i n g q u e s t i o n s a b o u t t h e S t a t e o f th e N a ti o n a d d r e s s a n d
s o o n . S o a f t e r t h a t m e e ti n g I a c tu a l ly a g a i n h a d t o m a k e c o n ta c t w i t h

20

t h e s e y o u n g m e n a n d w e h a d s e v e r a l m e e ti n g s s in c e t h e n e v e n w h e n
t h e M i n is t e r l e f t , w a s tr a n s f e r r e d a f t e r t h e e l e c ti o n fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n c y
t o D P S A t h e y s ti ll c a m e t o u s a n d I w a s th e ir m a i n g o - b e t w e e n f o r th e m
a n d t h e M i n i s te r.

N o w i n m y a ff id a v i t t o P a r li a m e n t I a c t u a l ly v e r y

c le a r ly a r t ic u l a t e w h a t th e M i n is te r t o l d m e a n d th e M in is t e r w a s , k e e p
t h e m a w a y fr o m t h e M i n is tr y a n d k e e p t h e m a w a y fr o m m e . S o y o u d e a l

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w i t h t h e m , I d o n ’ t w a n t t o d e a l w i t h t h e m a n d h e w o u l d r e g u la r ly a s k m e
– s o m e ti m e s I w o u l d g o th e r e a n d s a y, c h i e f I ’ m b e i n g t h r e a t e n e d h e r e
a n d h e w o u ld ju s t s a y, l o o k y o u a r e p r o te c t e d d o n ’ t w o r r y a s l o n g a s I
k n o w w h a t y o u ’ r e u p t o t h e n t h a t’s o k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

M r S i m o n s i f w e c a n ju s t u n p a c k w h a t y o u ’v e

s a i d a li t tl e b i t m o r e s l o w ly a n d p e r h a p s i n a l it t le b i t m o r e d e t a i l . Yo u
s a y i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t th a t t h is i n tr o d u c ti o n b y th e fo r m e r P r e s id e n t o f
t h e s e y o u n g m e n to M in is t e r C h a b a n e to o k p l a c e o n t h e 1 4 t h o f M a r c h
2014, how do you know it was that date?
10

MR SIMONS:

A t f ir s t I w a s a ls o w o n d e r in g , y o u k n o w, b e c a u s e

g e t t in g t h e d a te s r i g h t is i m p o r t a n t a n d w h e n w e r e b a s e d in t h e
P r e s i d e n c y w e a c t u a l ly u s e d G m a i l a c c o u n t s f o r c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a n d
s o m e o f t h o s e G m a i l e v i d e n c e w h ic h I p r o v i d e d i n t e r m s o f m e e t in g s ,
r e q u e s ts f o r m e e t in g s c o m e s fr o m m y G m a il a c c o u n t.

So in those

G m a il s i t is v e r y c le a r t h a t i t w a s a t t h i s p a r ti c u l a r e v e n t w h e r e t h e
M i n is t e r h a d m e t w i th t h e i n d i v i d u a ls w h e r e th e P r e s i d e n t o r f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t , i n fa c t , a c t u a ll y i n t r o d u c e d t h e m to t h e M i n i s te r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And if you look at Annexure BAS1 on page

15.
20

MR SIMONS:

Ja.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
MR SIMONS:

Is t h a t t h e G m a i l t h a t is r e fe r r e d to ?

J a , m y G m a il – th e s e w o u l d b e s o m e o f th e

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t w o u l d c o m e fr o m t h e – t h e P O is f o r P r e s id e n t’s
O ff ic e , s o t h a t w o u l d c o m e fr o m th e P r e s i d e n t ’s o ff ic e a n d i t w o u l d g o
t o , f o r e x a m p l e Br e n t2 7 8 a n d w o u l d b e m y G m a il a c c o u n t .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h i s i s d a te d th e 1 3 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 4 ,

y o u s a y t h a t t h e m e e t in g w o u ld h a v e t a k e n p la c e o n t h e 1 4 t h o f M a r c h ,
c o u l d y o u e x p l a in t h a t ?
MR SIMON S:

Ye s i n f a c t th e t h e n D G , D r P h il li p s w a n t e d a m e e ti n g

w i t h t h e M in is t e r.

H e t h e n s e n t t h a t r e q u e s t to o n e o f t h e s e n io r

o ffic i a ls i n t h e M i n is tr y w h o th e n r e s p o n d e d b y s a y i n g t h a t a c c o r d i n g to
h is k n o w le d g e th e Mi n is te r w a s c o n fir m e d to s p e a k a t t h e W e s tc o l
f u n c t i o n o r g a n is e d b y G C I S a s p a r t o f t h e ir P o s t- S o N O a c t iv i t ie s ,
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e , in fa c t fr o m t h e o ffic e a s w e ll i n w h i c h t h e N Y D A
10

f o r m a l ly s e n t a r e q u e s t t o th e o ff ic e o f t h e M i n i s t e r.

I t w e n t t o th e

P a r li a m e n ta r y l i a is o n o ffic e r w h o t h e n s e n t it t o m e a n d t o v a r i o u s o t h e r
o ffic i a ls s a y i n g t h a t th e y s e e i n t h e M i n i s t e r ’s p r o g r a m m e f o r t h e Fr id a y
t h a t i t w a s g o i n g t o b e a t i g h t – t o m a n a g e t h a t p a r t ic u l a r e v e n t
b e c a u s e h e n o w h a d t o a t t e n d t h e N Y D A f u n c ti o n a s w e l l . s o I c l e a r ly
r e m e m b e r t h a t p a r t ic u l a r r u n o f e v e n ts f o r t h a t d a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s a n d p e r h a p s f o r c o m p l e t e n e s s , i f I c a n

ju s t r e a d w h a t is s t a t e d i n th e e m a i l y o u ’r e r e fe r r i n g t o , i t s a y s ,
“ D e a r D r P h il li p s , M in is t e r is s c h e d u l e d t o a d d r e s s th e G C I S
G a u t e n g P o s t- S o N A Yo u t h D ia lo g u e a t W e s t c o l c a m p u s i n
20

R a n d fo n t e i n

t o m o r r o w.

According

to

our

spokesperson

M i n is t e r w i ll i n v i te t h e a u d i e n c e t o e n g a g e w i t h h i m t h e r e a f te r.
M i n is t e r w i ll j o in t h i s e v e n t l a t e r t h a n s c h e d u l e d

to

h is

a tt e n d a n c e a t t h e la u n c h o f t h e S o lo m o n M a h l a n g u S c h o la r s h i p

Fund

in S a n d t o n , b y t h e P r e s i d e n t , c o u l d y o u
MR SIMONS:

due

k in d ly a r r a n g e ” .

Ye s .

Page 99 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Now you said earlier that after you had seen

t h e M i n i s t e r w i t h th e s e y o u n g m e n , y o u w e r e i n tr o d u c e d t o th e m .
MR SIMONS:

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
MR SIMONS:

W h o w e r e th e s e y o u n g m e n ?

T h e r e w a s a Mr M q o n d is i Z u m a , B u s a Z u m a a n d t h e n a

M r Z w a n e , h is fir s t n a m e is i n th e r e , J a m e s – J a m e s Z w a n e a n d I w a s
b a s ic a lly t h e n i n t r o d u c e d t o t h e m a n d to l d th a t I n e e d e d to m e e t w i t h
them.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

the

tr u e

surname

fo r

A n d t h e C o m m is s i o n h a s a s c e r ta in e d t h a t
Mr

M q o n d is i

Zuma,

his

surname

is

in

f a c t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

M q o n d is i w il l b e M - q - o - n - d - i- s - i y o u k n o w f o r th e

tr a n s c r ib e r s , ju s t r e m e m b e r t o … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

H is s u r n a m e i s a c tu a l ly

Mathembu, do you know that?
MR SIMON S:

N o , a t a ll s t a g e s o f o u r i n t e r a c ti o n , c o r r e s p o n d e n c e h e

r e fe r s to h i m s e l f a s a M r M q o n d is i Z u m a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t r e la ti o n s h i p d i d y o u b e l ie v e t h a t

t h e y h a d w it h th e P r e s i d e n t , b o t h M r M a t h e m b u a n d Mr Z u m a ?
20

MR SIMONS:

W e ll th e y s e e m e d t o h a v e a c l o s e r e la t io n s h i p w i th t h e

P r e s i d e n t t h e n a n d a c tu a l ly v e r y o p e n ly m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t
r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d t h e n a l s o , a s I in d i c a t e d , r e fe r r e d to M r K h u lu b u s e a n d
Z u m a a s a f a th e r f ig u r e a n d i n t h e a ff id a v i t , a t a l a te r s t a g e , y o u ’ ll s e e
w h e r e I a c t u a lly s a id w h e r e t h e y – w h e n t h e y b e l ie v e d t h a t I w a s b u s y
w i t h d e l a y in g t a c t ic s t h e y s a i d t h a t t h e y w o u l d r e p o r t m e t o t h e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
P r e s i d e n t a s w e ll a s to M r K h u l u b u s e Z u m a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

Yo u s a i d t h a t t h e p e r s o n r e f e r r e d to i n y o u r – i n

p a r a g r a p h e i g h t in y o u r a ff id a v i t a s M r M q o n d i s i Zu m a , y o u s a i d t h e r e
is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w h e r e h e r e p r e s e n t e d h i ms e l f a s Z u m a ?
MR SIMON S:

I n f a c t a l l t h e e m a il c o r r e s p o n d e n c e I h a v e , s t il l i n m y

p o s s e s s i o n r e fe r s d ir e c tl y t o h i m u s i n g t h e s u r n a m e Z u m a .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d d e p e n d in g o n w h e n , a c c o r d in g t o t h e

in f o r m a ti o n th a t M s W e n t z e l y o u s a y t h e l e g a l – t h e C o m m i s s i o n g o t –
10

w h e n h e s ta r t e d u s i n g t h e s u r n a m e i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t h e s u b s e q u e n t ly
c h a n g e d t h e s u r n a m e s o th a t w o u l d h a v e t o b e i n v e s t ig a t e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a i r a s I u n d e r s ta n d it , M a t h e m b u is t h e

s u r n a m e o f h i s m o t h e r, s o h e - h is b ir th c e r t if ic a te I u n d e r s t a n d is i n
t h e n a m e o f M a t h e m b u b u t h e d e a l t , a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e w i tn e s s w i t h
t h e w i tn e s s a s if h is s u r n a m e w a s Z u m a .

I m e a n – y e s a s i f h is

surname was Zuma.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l d id y o u g e t i n f o r m a ti o n fr o m h i m o r d id y o u g e t

t h is i n f o r m a ti o n f r o m e ls e w h e r e , w h a t s u r n a m e h e u s e s . D i d h e s a y h e
u s e s M a t h e m b u a n d n o t Z u m a o r i s t h i s i n fo r m a t i o n y o u d i d n o t o b t a i n
20

fr o m h i m ?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

I’ m a d v is e d C h a ir t h a t h e u s e s b o t h , th a t h is

f a t h e r is Z u m a , h is m o t h e r i s M a t h e m b u a n d if I c a n ju s t l e a d s o m e
f u r th e r

evidence

that

might

a ls o

lead

some

c la r i ty

on

to

t h is … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll b e f o r e y o u l e a d t h e e v id e n c e I j u s t w a n t t o

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
understand because I don’t want us to waste time about something that
m i g h t n o t b e i m p o r ta n t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o w h a te v e r y o u k n o w, y o u d i d n ’ t g e t fr o m h i m , is

that correct?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SIMONS:

Ja.

C h a i r i f I m a y – if I ’ m a l lo w e d t o ?

CHAIRPERSON:
10

N o w e d i d n ’ t g e t i t fr o m h i m .

MR SIMONS:

Ye s , y e s .
H e a l s o b e fr ie n d e d m e o n F a c e b o o k a f te r th e i n i t ia l

m e e ti n g s a n d e v e n t h e r e t h e s u r n a m e is r e fe r r e d t o a s Z u m a a n d t h is
m o r n in g o n m y w a y h e r e I a c tu a lly g o t a r e m i n d e r fr o m F a c e b o o k t h a t i t
is h is b ir t h d a y t o d a y a n d i t c l e a r l y p o i n t e d a g a in t o M q o n d i s i Z u m a .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e f e r e n c e t o M a t h e m b u is s o m e t h i n g y o u a r e

h e a r in g f o r t h e f ir s t ti m e ?
MR SIMONS:

I h e a r d i t f o r th e fi r s t t i m e fr o m t h e C o m m is s i o n .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SIMONS:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON:
20

F r o m C o u n s e l j a , f r o m t h e [ in d i s ti n c t ] .

J a o k a y a lr i g h t .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

T h a n k y o u , n o w y o u s a y t h a t a f te r t h e fo r m e r

P r e s i d e n t h a d s p o k e n t o M i n i s te r C h a b a n e , M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e c a m e t o
y o u , i n tr o d u c e d t h e s e p e o p l e t o y o u a n d t h e n y o u u s e d th e w o r d t h a t h e
t o l d y o u t o d e a l w i th t h e m b u t t o k e e p t h e m a w a y fr o m h i m . W h a t d i d
y o u u n d e r s ta n d b y d e a l w i t h t h e m , a r e t h o s e th e w o r d s h e u s e d ?
MR SIMONS:

Ac c o r d in g to t h e la t e M i n is t e r, t h e Pr e s id e n t v e r y

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s p e c i f ic a l ly r e q u e s t e d t h a t w e a s s i s t t h e s e y o u n g p e o p l e a n d f o r u s
t h e n th e y c a m e w it h a l is t o f p o t e n ti a l b u s in e s s c o n c e p ts a n d b u s i n e s s
id e a s t h e y w a n t e d fo r G o v e r n m e n t a n d o u r a s s u m p t io n , a u to m a t ic a l ly
w a s th a t th e i n s tr u c t io n w a s to a s s is t th e m w i th t h e s e b u s in e s s
concepts.

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e t h e n o b v io u s l y, a s I in d i c a t e d , i n t h e

o r i g in a l a ffi d a v it t o P a r l i a m e n t t h a t h e w a s t o h a p p y w i th t h e s i t u a t io n
t h e n a n d th e n a s k e d m e t o d e a l w i t h t h e m e x c lu s i v e ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s M s W e n tz e l I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r h e m is s e d

t h is , I w a s lo o k i n g a t p a r a g r a p h n in e o f M r S i m o n s A ff i d a v it b e c a u s e I
10

h a d n o t h e a r d , a s h e w a s g iv i n g e v i d e n c e , h i m a r ti c u la t e i n a w a y t h a t I
u n d e r s t o o d e x a c tly w h a t i t i s t h a t h e s a y s t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t m a y
h a v e s a id t o M in is t e r C h a b a n e a b o u t th e y o u n g m e n .
MR SIMONS:

No.

CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u w a n t t o ju s t d e a l w i th – w h a t d i d h e s a y, is

t h e r e s o m e t h i n g th a t h e s a i d o n t h a t d a y, t h a t is t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t t o
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w h ic h is c o n n e c t e d w i t h y o u r t h in k i n g t h a t w h a t h e
s a i d i n P a r li a m e n t w a s n o t tr u e ?
MR SIMON S:

I n f a c t h i s – w h e n th e M i n is t e r i n t r o d u c e d t h e m t o m e

h e s a i d l o o k t h e r e q u e s t is f ir s t to p l e a s e a s s is t th e s e y o u n g p e o p le ,
20

t h e y h a v e s o m e b u s i n e s s id e a s a n d t o t e c h n ic a l ly in tr o d u c e t h e m t o
w h o e v e r t h e y w a n t to b e i n tr o d u c e d w i t h a n d th a t is w h y i n s o m e o f th e
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th a t th e y h a v e s e n t to m e , t h e y a c tu a l ly a s k e d , c a n y o u
a s s is t u s w i t h g e t t in g a c c e s s t o t h is o ff ic e o r c a n y o u a s s is t u s to g e t
a c c e s s t o th a t o ff ic e . S o I th e n , o b v i o u s ly k n e w th a t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n
w a s , y o u m e e t w i th t h e p e o p l e th a t h a v e b e e n r e f e r r e d t o m e a s t h e

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M i n is t e r, y o u d e a l w it h t h e m a n d y o u a s s i s t t h e m b u t t h e M i n i s t e r w a s
a ls o v e r y c o y w h e n h e s a i d , l o o k I d o n ’t w a n t y o u t o b r i n g t h e m t o m e ,
k e e p t h e m a w a y fr o m o u r o ff ic e a n d I th i n k t h a t ’s p a r t o f t h e r e a s o n
w h y a l l o f t h e m e e ti n g s t h a t I h a d w it h t h e m e i t h e r to o k p la c e
s o m e w h e r e in J o h a n n e s b u r g o r i n th e S a n d to n a r e a b u t n o w h e r e d i d w e
t a k e t h e m to t h e M i n is te r ’s o ffic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o is t h e p o s i ti o n th a t y o u y o u r s e l f d i d n o t h e a r

w h a t t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t s a i d to M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a b o u t t h e s e y o u n g
m e n b u t w h a t y o u h e a r d is w h a t t h e M i n is t e r s u b s e q u e n t ly s a i d to y o u
10

h e h a d b e e n to l d ?
MR SIMONS:

J a t o p l e a s e a s s is t t h e m y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, y e s c o n ti n u e .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

A n d i n t e r m s o f w h a t M i n is t e r C h a b a n e s a i d to y o u i t

is th a t h e s a i d M r Z u m a s a id h e o r y o u p e o p l e m u s t t r y a n d a s s is t t h e s e
young people?
MR SIMONS:

J a , i n f a c t , h e – t h e le v e l o r r e s p e c t w a s a l w a y s t h e r e

a n d h e w a s r e f e r r e d to a s t h e Pr e s id e n t a n d s o th e P r e s i d e n t h a s a s k e d
u s t o a s s is t a n d s o f o r m e t h e t e r m t h a t s t o o d o u t th e r e w a s t o p le a s e
20

a s s is t t h e m a n d t h e n o b v io u s ly i n s u b s e q u e n t m e e ti n g s w it h t h e m i t
b e c a m e v e r y c l e a r w h a t th e y w a n t e d a s s is t a n c e w it h b e c a u s e t h e y h a d
s o m e i d e a s i n t e r m s o f b u s i n e s s e s a n d a ll th e s e b u s i n e s s e s h a d d ir e c t
– w e r e d ir e c tl y li n k e d w it h G o v e r n m e n t , e i th e r t e n d e r s o r p o t e n t ia l
c o n tr a c ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , if y o u a r e a b le t o r e m e m b e r q u i t e w e ll , i f y o u

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h a v e a g o o d r e c o l le c t i o n o f e x a c t ly w h a t M r C h a b a n e c o n v e y e d to y o u
I’ d v e r y m u c h li k e y o u to a r ti c u la t e t h a t c le a r ly b e c a u s e i t ’s i m p o r t a n t
f o r u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h a t – w h e th e r t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g i m p r o p e r o r n o t
o r n o t p r o p e r t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n i n te n d e d o r m e a n t a n d i n t h i s r e g a r d
y o u m a y o r m a y n o t b e a w a r e t h a t t h is C o m m i s s i o n h e a r d e v id e n c e
fr o m M r Th e m b a M a s e k o w h o s a i d t h a t o n t h e d a y o n w h ic h h e w a s
g o i n g t o m e e t M r A j a y G u p t a a t th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e h e g o t a c a l l fr o m
t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t h e h a d w it h t h e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t w a s t h a t fo r m e r P r e s id e n t s a i d – a s k e d h i m t o a s s i s t t h e
10

G u p t a ’s . S o h e r e w e a r e m e e t i n g w h a t y o u s a y a l s o w a s a r e q u e s t a s
f a r a s y o u w e r e t o ld b y M in is t e r C h a b a n e fr o m th e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t t o
a s s is t t h e s e y o u n g p e o p l e . S o i t ’s i m p o r ta n t t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d a s m u c h
a s y o u a r e a b l e t o r e m e m b e r i n t e r m s o f w h a t M i n is t e r C h a b a n e s a id h e
h a d b e e n a s k e d t o d o . D o y o u w a n t t o j u s t a r tic u la t e t h a t o n c e a g a i n ?
MR SIMONS:

Ye s in m y s u b m is s i o n t o P a r l i a m e n t I a c t u a ll y s a i d t h a t

m y i n s tr u c t io n w a s to a s s is t t h e m w i t h a ll t h e ir b u s i n e s s c o n c e p t s t h a t
t h e y h a d . T h e r e f o r e , t o li n k t h e m u p w i th t h e c o r r e c t b u s in e s s p e o p l e –
n o t b u s i n e s s p e o p l e , i t e v e n i n c lu d e d D G ’s a n d Ac t in g D e p u ty D ir e c t o r
G e n e r a ls a n d a t o n e s ta g e I p e r s o n a lly a c t u a ll y c a ll e d a m e e ti n g w it h
20

a n o t h e r G o v e r n m e n t o ffi c i a l i n w h ic h I w a s t o l d t o h a n d o v e r p a r tic u l a r
e n v e l o p e , I k n e w t h e c o n te n ts o f th e e n v e l o p e a n d I h a d t o b r i e f t h i s
o ffic i a l o n w h a t w a s t o b e d o n e . S o th e u n d e r s ta n d i n g w a s , tr y a n d g e t
t h e m t o t h e c o r r e c t p e o p le b u t I t h i n k I a ls o m a k e it c l e a r t h a t t h e
M i n is t e r w a s s a y i n g , k e e p t h e m a t b a y a s l o n g a s – a n d a s f a r a s
p o s s i b le .

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CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s d i d y o u – a r e y o u a b le to te ll m e w h y y o u

t h o u g h t i t w a s n e c e s s a r y f o r t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t t o a s k M in is t e r
C h a b a n e to a s s is t th e s e y o u n g p e o p l e o r fo r M i n i s te r C h a b a n e to a s k
y o u to a s s is t t h e m a s o p p o s e d to a l l o w i n g t h e m , if t h e y n e e d e d a n y
a s s is t a n c e f r o m G o v e r n m e n t to a p p r o a c h G o v e r n m e n t w i t h o u t t h e
in t e r v e n t i o n o f t h e P r e s i d e n t li k e e v e r y b o d y.

Did you have an

u n d e r s t a n d in g w h y t h a t w a s n e c e s s a r y ?
MR SIMONS:

A t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ti m e I d o n ’ t t h i n k w e h a d a c l e a r

r e a s o n a s to w h y w e h a d t o a s s i s t t h e m o th e r t h a n h a v i n g t o a s s i s t
10

t h e m b u t I t h i n k a s o u r m e e ti n g s p r o g r e s s e d I a c t u a l ly c a m e – b e c a u s e
I d i d s o m e r e s e a r c h f o r t h e M i n is te r a s w e ll a n d th e n fo u n d o u t th a t
s o m e o f t h e s e y o u n g p e o p le w h o w e r e b r o u g h t t o t h e M i n s t e r w e r e t h e
s a m e p e o p l e w h o a lr e a d y h a d s o m e l e g a l c o n f lic t w i th t h e N a t i o n a l
Yo u t h D e v e l o p m e n t A g e n c y a t t h a t p a r t ic u la r ti m e . I th in k t h e r e w a s a
d is p u te o v e r a R 3 6 m i ll io n c o n tr a c t a n d t h e y w e r e t a k i n g t h e N Y D A t o
C o u r t , t h a t w a s p r i o r t o t h e m e e t i n g . S o I t h i n k t h a t t h e p o s i t io n w o u l d
h a v e b e e n th a t b e c a u s e t h e r e ’s a lr e a d y s o m e tr o u b le y o u t r y a n d a s s i s t
them as far as possible.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

O k a y s o b e c a u s e I g u e s s t h e N a ti o n a l Yo u t h

D e v e l o p m e n t A g e n c y w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e p l a c e w h e r e o n e w o ld h a v e
thought any young person seeking assistance would go so – but if they
a lr e a d y h a d d is p u t e s a n d a r g u m e n t s w i t h t h e m t h e y m a y t h e n h a v e
s o u g h t a s s is ta n c e o u t s i d e o f t h e N a ti o n a l Yo u t h D e v e l o p m e n t A g e n c y.
MR SIMONS:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

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MR SIMONS:

A n d C h a i r s o m e o f t h e s e is s u e s t h a t t h e y w a n te d , f o r

e x a m p l e w a s f o r t h e M i n is tr y w h o w a s t h e n t h e – o b v io u s ly t h e
r e p o r t in g e n t it y f o r th e N Y D A a s w e ll t o a c t u a l ly a s s is t i n s e c u r i n g
s o m e f u n d i n g th e N Y D A fo r s o m e o f th e p r o j e c ts .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s d id M i n i s te r C h a b a n e , a t t h a t s ta g e – d i d h is

p o r t f o l i o h a v e th e N Y D A u n d e r h i m , d i d i t i n c l u d e t h e N Y D A i n a n y w a y ?
MR SIMONS:

I f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly th e N Y D A r e p o r t e d to t h e M i n is t e r i n

t h e P r e s i d e n c y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o h e w o u ld h a v e b e e n r e s p o n s ib l e f o r i t o k a y. S o I

g u e s s t h a t m a y b e i t w o u l d m a k e s e n s e th a t i f t h e y h a d i s s u e s w i t h t h e
N Y D A a n d t h e N Y D A m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o h e lp t h e m b e c a u s e o f t h o s e
is s u e s , th e y a p p r o a c h t h e M i n is t e r w h o ’s r e s p o n s i b l e fo r th e N Y D A a n d
for assistance?
MR SIMONS:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a d e p e n d i n g o n w h a t t h e a s s i s t a n c e is b u t f o r a n y

p r o p e r [i n d is t i n c t] a s s is t a n c e t h e y w i ll b e e n ti tl e d t o g o t o t h e M in is t e r ?
MR SIMONS:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

Th a n k y o u C h a ir. M r S i m o n s in p a r a g r a p h 1 6

o f y o u r a ffi d a v it y o u l is t th e d e a l s t h a t t h e s e y o u n g m e n w e r e i n te r e s t e d
in , c o u ld y o u j u s t t e ll t h e C h a ir b r ie f ly w h a t w e r e t h e s e b u s i n e s s e s t h a t
t h e y w is h e d to p u r s u e ?
MR SIMONS:

T h e G o v e r n m e n t C o m m u n ic a ti o n a n d I n fo r m a ti o n

S y s t e m a t th a t s t a g e w a n t e d t o a p p o i n t c o m p a n i e s t h a t w o u l d c e n t r a li s e
G o v e r n m e n t a d v e r t is in g a n d t h e y f e lt th a t t h e y w o u ld b e a b l e t o b e n e fi t

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fr o m t h a t b y a s s i s ti n g a n d p r o v i d i n g th e ir s e r v ic e s t o G C I S a t th a t
p a r t ic u l a r ti m e . S o o n e o f t h e i s s u e s t h e y w a n t e d to r e - in tr o d u c e a n d
I’ m s a y i n g r e - in tr o d u c e b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t w e a lr e a d y
h a d p u b l ic in f o r m a t io n t e r m i n a ls , m o s t o f i t w h ic h w e r e in a c t iv e a n d
f a il i n g a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r s t a g e . S o t h e y w e r e lo o k i n g a t t h e in tr o d u c ti o n
o f p u b lic i n f o r m a ti o n t e r m i n a ls a n d t h a t w o u ld b e a t u n iv e r s i ti e s , a t
c o l l e g e s , a t Th u s o n g s e r v i c e c e n tr e s a t t h a t s t a g e I th i n k i t w a s s til l
c a l l e d M u l t i- P u r p o s e a n d C o m m u n i ty C e n t r e s . T h e y w a n t e d to – w h e n
w e i n t h e P r e s id e n c y s ti ll t h e y w e r e a ls o l o o k i n g a t t h e N Y D A a s s is t i n g
10

t h e m w i th f u n d in g fo r s o m e o f t h e ir p r o j e c ts b u t w e s te e r e d a w a y fr o m
t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h e l e g a l c o n fl ic t t h a t t h e y w e r e t e c h n ic a l ly i n v o lv e d
w i t h a l r e a d y w i th th e N Y D A a n d th e n w h e n w e le f t t h e P r e s i d e n c y a n d
w e w e n t t o P u b li c S e r v i c e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n t h e r e q u e s t c a m e t h r o u g h
f o r th e m t o b e c o n s i d e r e d a s t h e s i n g l e s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r fo r c e ll p h o n e
c o n tr a c ts w i th i n G o v e r n m e n t . N o w o b v io u s ly G o v e r n m e n t s p e n d s t e n s
o f mi ll i o n o f r a n d s o n c e l l p h o n e c o n tr a c t s m o n t h ly a n d a n n u a lly, t h a t
w o u ld h a v e b e e n a h u g e c o n tr a c t a n d t h e y w a n t e d u s t o l o o k a t t h e
p o s s i b il it y o f t h e m b e c o m in g t h e k e y s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r to G o v e r n m e n t .
S o t h e y w o u l d g o to e s t a b li s h e d c e l l p h o n e c o m p a n i e s a n d b e t h e k in d

20

o f i n te r m e d ia r y i n t h e s e c o m p a n i e s a n d a l l p u b l ic s e r v a n ts th r o u g h
D P S A a n d t h e n a l s o t h e G o v e r n m e n t e m p lo y e e s m e d ic a l s c h e m e w a s ,
a t t h a t s t a g e a d v e r ti s i n g – a n a d v e r t w e n t o u t fo r c o m p a n ie s t o te n d e r
for a – I don’t know how many years it was but I assume it wold have
b e e n a t w o , t h r e e , fo u r y e a r c o n t r a c t to p r o v id e c o m m u n ic a ti o n
s e r v ic e s , m a r k e ti n g s e r v i c e s , b r a n d in g s e r v ic e s e t c e t e r a f o r G E M S a n d

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t h a t i n i t s e l f w a s a ls o a v e r y e x p e n s iv e c o n tr a c t w h ic h w o u ld h a v e r u n
w e ll in t o a f e w h u n d r e d m il li o n a t th a t s ta g e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And did you get an impression or who was

f u n d i n g t h e s e y o u n g m e n i n t h e ir p r o p o s e d b u s in e s s e s , w h o w a s b e h i n d
them, if there was anyone?
MR SIMONS:

I d o n ’ t k n o w i f t h e y w e r e p a r t ic u l a r ly b e in g fu n d e d b y

a n y i n d iv id u a l b u t fo r M q o n d is i a n d h is b r o th e r, f o r e x a m p l e , t h e y v e r y
o p e n l y s a i d th a t Mr K h u lu b u s e Zu m a w a s f u n d i n g th e i r s ta y i n S a n d t o n
a n d t h a t t h e y w e r e g e t t in g a n a ll o w a n c e fr o m h i m a n d t h a t t h e y
10

t e c h n ic a l ly, t o a l a r g e e x te n t t h e n , m u s t a ls o r e p r e s e n t h i m a n d t h a t is
h o w t h e y, c o n s is t e n t ly p o r tr a y e d t h e m s e lv e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d d o y o u k n o w t h r o u g h w h ic h e n ti ty t h e y

w i s h e d t o s e c u r e t h e s e c o n tr a c t s w it h g o v e r n m e n t?
MR SIMONS:

T h e y – t h e y c a m e to u s w it h a c o m p a n y c a l l e d

W e in t e l li g e n t . N o w W e in t e l li g e n t w h e n I – I w a s a s k e d t o – t o d o s o m e
b a s ic c h e c k o n t h e m i s th e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s a ls o i n c o n fl ic t w i t h t h e
N a t io n a l Yo u t h D e v e l o p m e n t A g e n c y a t th a t p a r tic u la r s t a g e . S o I th e n
o b v i o u s l y a s I in d ic a t e d i n f o r m e d th e M in i s t e r, g a v e h i m m y b r i e f li t tl e
r e p o r t o n – o n m e e ti n g s t h a t I h a v e h e ld w i t h th e m a n d th e n a ls o s o m e
20

o f t h e s e o n li n e a r t ic l e s w h i c h I t h e n b a s ic a l ly h a d p r i n t e d o u t a n d
p r o v i d e d t o th e M in is t e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Mr Simons I want to show you a letter on

p a g e 2 0 a n d i t is d a t e d t h e 2 4 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 a n d i t i s s i g n e d b y M r
C h a b a n e a n d i n t h a t l e tt e r it is a d d r e s s e d t o M r Z w a n e w h o y o u s a y
w a s o n e o f th e s e y o u n g m e n a n d y o u s a y “ o u r r e c e n t e n g a g e m e n t a n d ”

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
– not you say it said –
“ O u r r e c e n t e n g a g e m e n t a n d d is c u s s i o n a t t h e la u n c h
o f th e S o lo m o n M a h l a n g u S c h o l a r s h i p F u n d r e f e r s .
T h a n k y o u f o r y o u r p r e s e n ta t io n o n H O W Z I T.

Yo u r

in t e r a c ti v e w e b b a s e d c u s to m e r ta r g e t b i l l b o a r d f o r
d i g i t a l a d v e r t is in g .

I t is i n d e e d e n c o u r a g in g t o fi n d

o u r y o u n g p e o p l e m a k i n g i n r o a d s in th e a r e a o f
d i g i t a l a d v e r t is in g .

I n t h is r e g a r d w e s u p p o r t t h e

e ffo r t s o f t h e W e i n te ll in g e n t Te c h n o lo g y t h r o u g h t h e ir
10

H O W Z I T p r o je c t w h ic h w il l n o t o n l y b e n e fi t o u r y o u th
b u t t h e c o m m u n i ty a t l a r g e . Yo u r s s i n c e r e l y. ”
N o w y o u h a v e s a i d th a t M in is t e r C h a b a n e s a id t o y o u , k e e p t h e s e
p e o p l e a w a y fr o m m e . U n d e r w h a t c i r c u m s t a n c e s d i d h e c o m e to s i g n
t h is le t t e r a n d c o u l d y o u e x p l a i n w h a t th e H O W Z I T p r o j e c t w a s ?
MR SIMON S:

Th e – t h e H O W Z I T P r o j e c t w a s n o t p r e s e n t e d to t h e

M i n is t e r. I t w a s p r e s e n t e d t o – t o m e a n d t o a l a r g e e x t e n t I a c t u a ll y
d r a f t e d t h e l e t te r a s w e l l b e c a u s e I m e a n if y o u h a v e a n u n d e r s ta n d i n g
o f h o w th e M i n is tr i e s o p e r a te . Yo u – i f th e r e is a p r o p o s a l – i f t h e r e i s
a p r o j e c t y o u t r y a n d g iv e t h e M i n i s te r a s m u c h i n fo r m a ti o n a s p o s s i b l e .
20

T h e H O W Z I T p r o j e c t w a s n o t a b a d c o n c e p t a t a ll . I t w a s a b o u t tr y i n g
t o e m p o w e r a n d g e tt i n g y o u th in p a r tic u la r i n t o t h e a d v e r ti s i n g i n d u s tr y.
B u t s in c e o u r v e r y fir s t m e e t in g w h ic h h a p p e n e d w a y b e f o r e t h is l e t te r I
c o n s t a n t ly t o ld t h e M i n is t e r, M i n is te r t h e y w a n t a l e t te r fr o m y o u
in d i c a t in g t h a t t h e r e is s o m e s u p p o r t fr o m t h e o ffic e o f – o f t h e M i n is t e r
in t h e P r e s i d e n t . H e t h e n t o l d m e t o d r a f t a l e tt e r. H e r e a d t h r o u g h i t

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a n d t h e n h e s a i d , o k a y f in e b e c a u s e it d o e s n o t c o m m i t u s to – t o
a n y th in g i n p a r ti c u la r w i t h i n g o v e r n m e n t .

S o i t is a le t t e r t h a t j u s t

b r o a d l y s a y s t h a t l o o k Br e n t s p o k e t o t h e M i n is t e r a n d t h e M in is t e r h a s
n o t e d th is p r o j e c t a n d t h a t b a s ic a l ly t h r o u g h m e t h e y w il l tr y a n d g e t a s
m u c h s u p p o r t a s p o s s i b le fr o m t h e M i n i s t e r i n th e P r e s i d e n c y.
CHAIRPERSON:

It l o o k s l ik e t h e y – t h e y w a n t e d a l e t te r fr o m t h e

P r e s i d e n c y t h a t t h e y c o u ld u s e to g e t w h a te v e r a s s is ta n c e fr o m o th e r
p e o p l e o r b u s i n e s s fr o m p e o p l e . W o u l d t h a t h a v e b e e n y o u r t h i n k in g a s
w e ll a s t o w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e l e t te r w a s ?
10

M R S I M O N S : I t w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o tr y a n d a s s is t t h e m t o o p e n s o m e
d o o r s w it h in g o v e r n m e n t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR SIMON S: And we – we very – I am sure that there would be one or
t w o p e o p l e w h o w o u l d b e a b l e t o v e r i fy t h a t .

E v e n th o u g h w e h a v e

g iv e n th e m t h i s le t t e r b e y o n d t h a t w e d i d n o t r e a lly a s s is t w i t h a n y
p h y s i c a l o p e n i n g o f d o o r s t o [ i n d is ti n c t ] w i t h i n g o v e r n m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . B u t I g u e s s t h a t t h e l is t t h e y m u s t h a v e w a n te d
it f o r is t o s h o w i t a r o u n d ?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y e v e n g o v e r n m e n t s u p p o r ts u s .
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e ir u n d e r s t a n d in g w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h a t t h a t

should carry some weight somewhere?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d n o w lik e to r e fe r y o u t o a
le t t e r o n p a g e 2 2 o f t h e b u n d le . I t i s a n e m a i l f r o m M r M a t e m b o o r Mr
Z u m a d a t e d t h e 2 A p r i l 2 0 1 4 a d d r e s s e d t o y o u c o p ie d t o J a m e s Z w a n e
a n d Ar c h ie Z o n d o a n d i t s a y :
“ D e a r B r e n t . I tr u s t t h a t t h is e m a i l w il l fi n d y o u w e l l .
Pursuant to our last engagement we would kindly
r e q u e s t t o m e e t w i t h y o u r s e l v e s o n t h e 4 A p r il 2 0 1 4
a t M ic h a e l A n g e l o To w e r s P a r k F ir m r e s t a u r a n t a t
10am
10

to

discuss

government

the

p r o je c t

HOWZIT

and

other

and
digital

connect

to

solutions.

T h a n k i n g y o u i n a n ti c i p a t i o n . ”
D i d y o u in f a c t m e e t w it h t h e m a f t e r th is r e q u e s t ?
MR SIMONS:

I – I m e t w it h th e m .

I i n f o r m e d t h e M i n i s te r t h a t th e r e

w a s t h is r e q u e s t a n d I a ls o h a d t o i n f o r m t h e – t h e C h i e f o f S t a ff a t th a t
s t a g e s o t h a t t h e r e w a s a t l e a s t fo r o u r r e c o r d p u r p o s e th e y a r e a w a r e
t h a t I a m o ff ic ia lly tr a v e lli n g to – t o m e e t w it h th e s e i n d i v i d u a ls .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d t h e n a f te r t h is m e e ti n g d i d y o u r e c e iv e a
b u s i n e s s p r o p o s a l w it h r e g a r d to t h i s H O W Z I T p r o j e c t ?
MR SIMONS:
20

Th e b u s in e s s p r o p o s a l w a s r e c e iv e d a n d th e n b a s ic a ll y

ju s t f il e d . N o n o t f o r m a l ly f il e d i n th e M i n is tr y b u t f il e d w i th i n o u r o w n
li t tl e s e t u p s o n o u r l a p t o p s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

S o if I c a n r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 2 4 .

I t is a n

e m a i l fr o m J a m e s Z w a n e d a t e d t h e 7 A p r i l 2 0 1 4 a d d r e s s e d t o y o u .
“ D e a r B r e n t . P l e a s e f in d a t t a c h e d t h e b u s p l a n a n d
see

b e lo w

notes

fr o m

our

m e e t in g

Page 112 of 155

to

do

for

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
W e in t e l li g e n t s e n d b u s p l a n s , s e n d r a t e s , id e n ti fy
s i te s a n d g e t l e t t e r s to d o fo r B r e n t .

Meet Donald

w i t h G C I S a n d g e t l e t t e r o f s u p p o r t f o r H O W Z I T. Ta lk
t o D o n a l d a b o u t m e e t in g W i n te ll ig e n t r a te s 2 0 0 0 p e r
s c r e e n p e r m o n t h . T h e y w il l b e 2 0 0 s c r e e n s to b e g i n
with. Regards James.”
A n d th e n o n p a g e 2 5 is t h a t t h e b u s i n e s s p r o p o s a l th a t w a s s e n t t o
you?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
10

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Now in paragraph 23.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f h is a ff i d a v i t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : O f y o u r a ff i d a v i t y o u r e f e r to A n n e x u r e B A S 5
w h ic h c a n b e f o u n d o n p a g e 4 4 a n d i f I c a n t a k e y o u to t h a t. A n d t h is
is a n e m a il d a t e d th e 8 A p r i l 2 0 1 4 a n d i t i s fr o m t h e y o u n g M r Z u m a to
y o u a ls o c o p y i n g J a m e s Zw a n e a n d B u s a Z u m a a n d i t s a y s ?
“Dear Brent.

T h e r e is s o m e t h in g w e fo r g o t to

m e n ti o n o n Fr id a y d u r i n g o u r m e e t in g .

We had a

c h a t w i t h t h e M in is t e r r e g a r d i n g o u r a p p l ic a t io n f o r
a n I C A S A lic e n c e f o r t h e a d v e r tis i n g o n v o ic e c a l l
20

c o n c e p t a d c a ll . T h e M in is t e r w a s w il li n g t o a s s i s t u s
s e c u r e a m e e t i n g w i t h t h e d e c is i o n m a k e r s a t I C A S A
w h o c o u ld h e l p u s f a s t t r a c k t h e a p p lic a ti o n .

We

a ls o w a n t e d t o n e g o t i a t e m o r e f a v o u r a b l e r a te s a s
w e w il l b e g i v i n g c a ll s fo r fr e e to t h e p u b l i c . C a n y o u
a s s is t u s i n s e c u r i n g a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e m ? L o o k i n g

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
f o r w a r d to y o u r r e p ly. R e g a r d s M q o n d is i . ”
C a n y o u e x p la i n t h a t t o th e C h a i r p le a s e ? W h a t w a s th is a b o u t?
MR SIMONS:

A t t h is s t a g e w e w e r e a l s o m o v i n g I th i n k – I t h i n k i t

w o u ld h a v e b e e n e l e c ti n g h e a r i n g p e r i o d a s w e ll f o r t h e t h e n g e n e r a l
e l e c ti o n . S o w h a t t h e y w a n te d h e r e w a s t h e y w a n te d u s to – to d i r e c t ly
p u t t h e m i n c o n ta c t w i th I C A S A b u t t h e y w a n t e d u s t o b e p r e s e n t a s
w e ll . B e c a u s e t h e n y o u w o u l d h a v e s o m e o n e fr o m t h e P r e s id e n c y a ls o
p a r t ic ip a ti n g i n t h e m e e ti n g w h i c h w o u ld h a v e g iv e n i t a c e r ta i n
e l e v a te d s ta t u s a c c o r d in g t o t h e m . S o f o r t h is t h e y w e r e p r o p o s in g t h a t
10

t h e y b a s i c a ll y r u n a d v e r ts fo r g o v e r n m e n t a s w e l l t h r o u g h a p a r ti c u l a r
c o m p a n y o f th e ir s i n w h ic h t h e y w o u l d g e t a ll g o v e r n m e n t d e p a r t m e n t s
t o b a s ic a l ly p la c e a d v e r ts t h r o u g h t h e m . A n d t h e n if y o u r p h o n e r i n g s
f o r e x a m p l e a n d y o u d o n o t a n s w e r a n d a ft e r a c o u p l e o f s e c o n d s i t
g o e s i n t o a v o ic e m a il . O r if y o u a n s w e r i t y o u g e t a v o ic e o n t h e o th e r
s id e o r a r e c o r d in g o n th e o t h e r s i d e b a s ic a ll y te ll i n g y o u t h a t th is is
H o m e A ff a ir s y o u n e e d to r e g is t e r S A S S A e t c e t e r a s o t h a t w a s p a r t o f
t h e ir – th e i r p r o p o s a l .

B u t fr o m t h e ir u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e y a c tu a lly

n e e d e d a p a r t ic u l a r lic e n c e to o p e r a t e th a t . A n d t h e y t h e n w a n t e d u s t o
– t o p u t t h e m in c o n t a c t w i th I C A S A .
20

A n d t h a t m e e t in g a ls o n e v e r

m a t e r i a lis e d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o a t te m p t f r o m o u r s i d e to – t o p u t
them in contact with ICASA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i t l o o k s lik e y o u – y o u w e r e r e l u c t a n t t o d o t h is
p a r t o f w h a t t h e y w a n t e d y o u t o d o . A m I r ig h t?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s th e y w e r e – t h e y w e r e a lr e a d y i n c o n t a c t w i t h IC A S A .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o t e l l m e a b o u t t h e b a s i s fo r y o u r r e lu c t a n c e ?

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Is i t j u s t t h a t th e y w e r e a lr e a d y i n c o n t a c t w i t h I C A S A o r is i t s o m e t h i n g
m o r e th a n th a t?
MR SIMONS:

N o i t w a s – i t w a s i n f a c t w h a t – i f y o u r e a d t h e e m a il

a n d t h e y d o n o t s a y i t e x a c tl y i n th e e m a i l t h e r e .

But what they are

s a y in g is t h a t l o o k w e w a n t y o u t o f a s t tr a c k th e – t h e a p p l ic a ti o n . W e
a ls o w a n t s p e c i a l r a te s fr o m – fr o m I C A S A . S o t h e y w a n te d u s a s th e
P r e s i d e n c y o r t h e M i n is t e r i n th e P r e s i d e n c y t o c o m e i n a n d t h e n
b a s ic a lly tr y a n d p u l l s o m e s tr in g s a n d t o l d I C A S A l o o k t h i s is a s p e c i a l
a p p lic a ti o n h e r e .
10

F a s t tr a c k it w e d o n o t w a n t y o u to d e la y it .

They

t h e n a ls o w a n t e d u s t o – to – a s t h e o ffi c e r o f t h e M i n is te r in t h e
P r e s i d e n c y t o b a s ic a lly in s tr u c t I C A S A a s w e ll . L o o k e i t h e r y o u r e d u c e
t h e r a t e s o r y o u d o n o t g iv e t h e m a n y – a n y r a t e s . Yo u d o n o t c h a r g e
them anything.

A n d a t t h a t s ta g e w e – w e f e l t th a t th a t i s n o t

s o m e t h i n g th a t w e – w e w e r e p r e p a r e d t o – t o d o . A n d t h e r e f o r e e v e n
t h e M in is t e r h a d n o o b je c t i o n w h e n w e – w e d e c l in e d t o a s s is t o n t h i s
p a r t ic u l a r e v e n t .

A n d o u r d e c li n i n g n e v e r w e n t i n a f o r m a l l e t t e r o r

e m a i l d e c li n i n g i t w a s j u s t b a s ic a l ly i g n o r i n g c o r r e s p o n d e n c e r e g a r d i n g
t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . T h e y d i d n o t s p e c if ic a l ly s a y th e y w a n te d
20

y o u t o d o a n y th in g m o r e t h a n b e i n g p r e s e n t a s s u c h a m e e ti n g w i t h
I C A S A o r d i d th e y ?
MR SIMONS:

I n f a c t t h e e m a il s a y s th e y – e x a c tly w h a t t h e y s a id in

t h e m e e ti n g a s w e l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SIMONS:

T h e y w a n t e d u s to – t o a s s is t w it h – w i t h m a k i n g s u r e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
that

th e

a p p l ic a ti o n

goes

through

fa s t e r

and

that

there

is

no

u n n e c e s s a r y d e l a y s w h ic h – w h ic h t h e y i n fa c t r e g a r d e d f o r m a l ly
processes as…
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s a w a s t e o f ti m e .
M R S I M O N S : A s a w a s te o f t i m e a n d d e la y s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S I M O N S : S o t h e y t h o u g h t th a t w i t h u s p r e s e n t t h e y w o u ld b e a b l e
t o e x p e d i t e t h e e n tir e p r o p o s a l t h a t t h e y w e r e p r e s e n ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MR SIMON S:

A n d th e n a l s o i n th a t p r o c e s s t h e n w e a l s o w a n te d t o

n e g o ti a te w h a t d o t h e y s a y th e r e – m o r e f a v o u r a b le t e r m s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S I M O N S : I n t e r m s o f u s b e i n g y o u t h w e w a n t t h e r e d u c e d r a te f r o m
ICASA.

T h a t th e y n o t c h a r g e u s w h a t t h e y w o u l d c h a r g e a n y o th e r

S o u th A fr ic a n c o m p a n y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Excuse me.

S o w o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t to s a y th a t t h e y

w a n t e d y o u to – t o u s e t h e P r e s i d e n c y o r t h e M i n i s t r y i n th e Pr e s id e n c y
t o a d v a n c e t h e ir c a u s e o r c a s e a t I C A S A ?
MR SIMONS: That would be correct.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d y o u t h o u g h t th a t t h a t w a s g o i n g b e y o n d t h e
a c c e p ta b l e l i n e ?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

In t e r m s o f w h a t e v e r a s s is t a n c e y o u c o u l d g iv e .

t h a t r ig h t ?
MR SIMONS: Correct.

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Is

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . C o n t in u e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Thank you. Mr Simons you then in paragraph
2 4 . 1 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t o n p a g e 7 r e f e r to a m e e ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I a m – I a m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l . S o t h e p ic t u r e t h a t
I a m g e t ti n g a n d y o u m u s t j u s t t e l l m e i f t h a t is h o w y o u u n d e r s t o o d it
a s w e ll o r h o w y o u s e e i t is . Th e y s t a r t e d w i t h a s k i n g f o r a l e t te r.
MR SIMONS: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m t h e P r e s id e n c y t h a t e x p r e s s e s s u p p o r t fo r w h a t
t h e y w e r e d o i n g to tr y in g t o g e t .
10

T h e n n o w th e y w e r e – th e y w e r e

w a n ti n g p e o p le fr o m th e Pr e s i d e n c y t o b e w i t h t h e m i n – i n t h e i r
m e e ti n g w i th I C A S A s o a s t o a s s i s t t h e m i n th e ir d is c u s s i o n s w i t h – w i t h
ICASA?
MR SIMON S:

Th e l e t t e r i n fa c t th e y w a n t e d t o u s e f o r – f o r a l l t h e ir

proposals.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SIMONS:

S o th a t is w h y t h e y m a k i n g r e f e r e n c e to m e e ti n g s w it h

GCIS.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : A n d I C A S A a n d G e ms e tc e te r a .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SIMONS:

S o – s o it i s c o r r e c t t o – t o c o n c l u d e t h a t w h a t t h e y

w a n t e d w a s – a n d I m e a n i t is a l m o s t li k e a fi s h in g e x e r c is e w h e r e y o u
p u t o n y o u r b a i t a n d e v e r y t h in g a n d t h e n o n c e t h e f is h b it e s y o u s t a r t
r e e l in g i t i n .

A n d t h e le t t e r in th e i r p o s s e s s i o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n

s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t . T h a t l o o k w e h a v e t h e s u p p o r t o f th e P r e s i d e n c y

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o r th e M in is t e r i n th e Pr e s i d e n c y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i t m a y w e ll b e th a t t h e r e is s o m e c o m p a r is o n t o
b e d o n e b e t w e e n w h a t t h e y w e r e d o i n g a n d w h a t th e G u p ta ’s s e e m t o
h a v e b e e n d o i n g o n t h e e v i d e n c e th a t I h a v e h e a r d s o f a r a t l e a s t i n
some cases where the evidence suggest that Mr Duduzane Zuma would
b e p r e s e n t w h e n th e G u p t a ’s w e r e ta lk i n g t o c e r ta in p e o p l e b u t h e
w o u ld n o t b e m a k i n g a n y s e r i o u s c o n tr i b u ti o n t o t h e d is c u s s i o n b u t h e
w o u ld b e t h e r e .
MR SIMONS: Ja.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I h e a r d e v id e n c e i n t h a t r e g a r d fr o m M r J o n a s w h o

s a i d w h e n t h e m e m b e r o f th e G u p ta f a m ily w h o h e s a id o ff e r e d h i m
m o n e y if h e a g r e e d to w o r k w i th t h e m a s M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e . H e s a id
M r Z u m a a n d M r H l o n g w a n e w e r e th e r e b u t h e s a i d th e y w e r e a s – th e y
were very quiet.
MR SIMONS: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h e a r d e v i d e n c e fr o m M r D u g w a n a fo r m e r M E C i n t h e
Fr e e S t a te g o v e r n m e n t w h o s a i d t h e r e w a s a d a y w h e n h e a n d fo r m e r
P r e m i e r o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e M r M a g a s h u l e w e n t t o t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e
w h e n I t h i n k M r R a j e s h G u p ta s p o k e t o t h e m a n d o n t h a t o c c a s i o n M r
20

R a j e s h G u p ta w a n t e d M r D u k w a n a t o s i g n a c e r t a i n l e tt e r a p p o i n ti n g
o n e o f th e ir c o m p a n ie s g i v i n g t h e m s o m e g o v e r n m e n t b u s i n e s s in th e
Fr e e S t a t e a n d s a y in g t h a t h e s h o u l d g e t r id o f h is H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t
a n d p r o p o s in g M r R ic h a r d S e le k e a s t h e p e r s o n t o m a k e H e a d o f
Department and Mr Dukwana said Mr Duduzane Zuma was there but he
d i d n o t s a y a n y t h in g .

A n d th e n I t h i n k t h e r e is a n o th e r i n c i d e n t to o

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w h e n o n e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s t o ld m e s o m e t h i n g s i mi l a r t o s a y th e G u p ta ’s
w e r e t a l k i n g to – t o h i m a b o u t s o m e th in g a n d M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a t h e r e
b u t h e d i d n o t s a y a n y th i n g .

S o w it h y o u o r t h e M i n is t e r y i n t h e

P r e s i d e n c y f ir s t th is g r o u p o f y o u n g p e o p l e a s a – fo r a l e t te r o f
s u p p o r t fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n c y n o w th e y w a n te d y o u t o b e p r e s e n t a t a
m e e ti n g t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o h a v e w i t h I C A S A .
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e r e th e y w e r e g o i n g t o a s k IC A S A t o a g r e e t o

c e r t a i n th in g s .
10

MR SIMONS:

I n t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e r e a d o u t e a r li e r a s w e l l t h e y in

f a c t a s k e d m e t o m e e t w i t h – w i t h th e a c ti n g C E O o f G C I S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SIMONS: Before …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SIMONS: They come on board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : T h e n w h e n t h e y m e e t in g s o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SIMONS: So – when I contact the acting CEO of GCIS.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : I d o s o i n m y c a p a c i ty a s a s e n i o r o ffic i a l in t h e M i n is tr y
o f t h e o ff ic e f o r t h e M i n i s t e r in t h e P r e s i d e n c y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR SIMONS:

S o th e y w o u ld h a v e a s s u m e d t h a t w o u ld b e a v e r y

p o w e r f u l a n d i n fl u e n c e r.

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON: H.
MR SIMONS:

To o p e n th o s e d o o r a n d t h a t is w h y y o u c a n s e e t h e m

a s k in g v e r y d ir e c t ly, c a n y o u f a c il it a t e t h e m e e t in g w i th I C A S A ?
y o u m e e t w i t h D o n a ld a s G C I S ?

Can

Can you then arrange a subsequent

m e e ti n g f o r u s w i t h D o n a ld w h e r e y o u w il l a ls o b e p r e s e n t e tc e te r a ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . A c t u a l ly I h a v e n o w r e m e m b e r t h e t h ir d w i t n e s s
w h o to l d m e s o m e t h i n g s i m i l a r.

Mr S a l o o j e e w h o w a s G r o u p C E O o n

D e n e l s a i d h e w a s t a k e n to a m e e t i n g a t t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e b y Mr I
t h i n k Mr E s s a c a ll e d h i m to a m e e ti n g .
10

I th i n k h e a t t e n d e d t h r e e

m e e ti n g s t h e r e b u t o n t h e s e c o n d m e e ti n g if I a m n o t m is t a k e n M r Z u m a
w a s p a r t o f t h e m e e t in g w h e n a m e m b e r o f t h e G u p t a f a m il y w a s t a lk i n g
t o M r S a l o o j e e w a n ti n g s o m e d is c u s s i o n o n p o s s i b l e w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r
b e t w e e n D e n e l o r b u s i n e s s w i th D e n e l a n d h e s a i d M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a
w a s t h e r e b u t h e d i d n o t s a y a n y t h in g .

H e w a s ju s t t h e r e .

S o th e r e

h a v e b e e n a n u m b e r o f t h o s e in s ta n c e s . Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. M r Si m o n s y o u r e fe r t o
f u r th e r m e e ti n g s in p a r a g r a p h 2 4 . 1 a n d 2 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it . Yo u r e f e r
t o a m e e ti n g o n t h e 2 9 M a y 2 0 1 4 i n p a r a g r a p h 2 4 . 1 . H o w d o y o u r e c a ll
that date?
20

MR SIMONS:

I t h i n k th is w a s s t il l p a r t o f m y o r ig in a l a ffi d a v it t o

P a r li a m e n t a s w e ll . A t t h a t s t a g e I w o u ld h a v e h a d a c c e s s t o a l l m y –
m y e le c t r o n ic a s w e ll a s p h y s i c a l d ia r i e s s o w e d o a r c h iv e o u r d i a r i e s .
S o I p a r t ic u l a r ly I r e m e m b e r th is d a t e .

I a ls o I t h i n k w e n t t o g o a n d

c h e c k i t w i th my - w h a t d o y o u c a l l i t – y o u r l o g b o o k – y o u r k i l o m e tr e
lo g b o o k . S o I w e n t t o t h is p a r t ic u l a r m e e t in g s o – b u t a s I i n d ic a t e d in

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m y a ffi d a v i t a s w e l l th e o n e I s u b m i t te d t o – t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n I n o
lo n g e r h a v e a c c e s s t o th o s e e l e c tr o n ic d ia r ie s a n d i f i t is s t il l a r c h iv e d
it w o u l d p r o b a b ly b e i n a n a r c h iv e s o m e w h e r e b u t fr o m m y s i d e I – I –
O n c e y o u l e a v e th e d e p a r t m e n t y o u d o n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o t h a t
d e p a r t m e n t’s e m a il a n d s e r v e r.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And can you recall what happened at that

m e e ti n g ?
MR SIMONS:

A t t h is p a r ti c u la r m e e t in g t h e y w a n t e d m e to s e c u r e a

c o n tr a c t w it h G C I S . Yo u s e e t h e y – t h e y u s e u s t o tr y a n d a s s is t w i th
10

s e c u r in g th e …
CHAIRPERSON:

O n e s e c o n d Mr S i m o n s .

M a y b e y o u c a n p u t o n th e

a ir c o n j u s t a l i tt l e b i t . J a o k a y th a n k y o u . Ye s I i n t e r r u p t e d y o u w h il e
y o u w e r e a n s w e r in g . J a .
MR SIMONS: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h y o u m u s t s a y i f s h e m u s t r e m i n d y o u t h e q u e s ti o n
– w h a t t h e q u e s ti o n w a s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : D o y o u r e c a l l w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t m e e t in g ?
W h a t w a s i t a b o u t?
MR SIMONS:
20

Ye s . A t th a t m e e t in g t h e y – th e y c le a r ly i n d ic a te d th a t

t h e y w a n t e d t h e s e p u b l ic i n fo r m a ti o n t e r m i n a ls w h ic h i s s o m e t h in g th a t
a ls o c o m e s fr o m t h e c o n fl ic t b e t w e e n t h e N Y D A a n d W e i n t e l li g e n t
w h e r e th e y h a v e t h e s e p u b l ic i n f o r m a ti o n m o b il e te r m i n a l s w h e r e
a n y o n e c a n a c c e s s a n y in f o r m a t io n a b o u t g o v e r n m e n t .

But once you

o p e n u p th e p a g e t h e r e w o u l d b e a d v e r ts e i t h e r fr o m H o m e A ff a ir s
w h ic h th e y w o u l d h a v e to p a y fo r a s w e l l a s a n y o t h e r g o v e r n m e n t

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d e p a r t m e n t.

A n d t h e y h a v e a l r e a d y d e t e r m i n e d t h e p r ic i n g a s w e ll

b e c a u s e th e y w e r e s a y in g t h a t i t w a s g o i n g t o b e R 2 0 0 0 . 0 0 p e r – p e r
t e r m in a l.

S o l e t u s s a y f o r e x a m p le y o u t h e n h a v e t e n d e p a r t m e n ts

a d v e r t is in g o n t h a t p a r ti c u l a r te r m i n a l t h e n y o u m u l ti p ly i t b y t h e 2 0 0
p l u s t h a t th e y a l r e a d y h a d a v a il a b l e a n d y o u c o m e t o a s u b s t a n t ia l
m o n th ly

amount

government

that

a d v e r tis i n g

th e y

would

in

p u b l ic

–

would

be

in f o r ma t io n

r e c e iv i n g
–

through

th r o u g h
p u b l ic

in f o r m a ti o n t e r m i n a ls p l a c e d a t th e T h u s o n g S e r v ic e C e n t r e s o f
government. And at that stage I think there were about over 200 if I am
10

n o t m is t a k e n a c t iv e T h u s o n g S e r v ic e C e n t r e s th r o u g h o u t t h e c o u n tr y.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Ye s .
MR SIMONS:

T h e y a ls o w a n te d u s o b v i o u s l y to s e c u r e s p a c e fo r t h e

a d v e r t is e m e n ts o f t h o s e d e p a r t m e n ts a n d th e y w a n t e d u s t o d o t h a t
t h r o u g h G C I S w h i c h is v e r y s i m i l a r t o d e n i a l d e fu n c t T N A w o u l d h a v e –
w o u ld h a v e r e c e iv e d a d v e r t is in g t h r o u g h G C I S f o r g o v e r n m e n t a d v e r t s
in u s e d – i n th e n e w s p a p e r f o r e x a m p l e .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d s o a m I u n d e r s ta n d i n g c o r r e c t th a t t h e y
w e r e w i s h i n g t o e a r n f u n d s i n b o t h r e n ti n g t h e t e r m i n a ls a n d fo r t h e
a d v e r t s t h a t w o u l d b e p l a c e d o n t h o s e t e r m i n a ls b y g o v e r n m e n t
20

d e p a r t m e n ts ?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d th e n t h e m e e ti n g s y o u r e f e r r e d t o o n – in
p a r a g r a p h 2 5 o n t h e 3 0 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n d th e 6 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 . D o
y o u a ls o g e t t h e s e d a t e s fr o m y o u r e le c tr o n ic d i a r y ?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .

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A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d c a n y o u r e c a l l w h a t t h e s e m e e ti n g s w e r e
a b o u t?
M R S I M O N S : W e l l a t t h a t s ta g e i t is S e p t e m b e r a n d O c t o b e r w e w o u ld
h a v e b e e n i n t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n M i n i s t r y.

So we

w o u ld h a v e m o v e d o u t o f t h e e le c ti o n s fr o m t h e o ff ic e o f t h e P r e s i d e n c y
t o D P S A . S o t h e – y o u k n o w th e y c a m e b a c k a n d s a i d lo o k y o u a r e n o
lo n g e r i n t h e Pr e s i d e n c y w e w i ll d e a l w i t h p e o p l e w h o a r e i n th e
P r e s i d e n c y s t il l o n s o m e o f t h e s e p r o j e c t s t h a t th e y w a n te d . B u t n o w
t h a t w e a r e a t D P S A t h e y w a n t e d u s to a s s is t th e m w it h – w it h a c c e s s
10

t o p o t e n t i a l a n d c o n t r a c t s w i t h i n t h e P u b l i c S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a t i o n
setup of government.

A n d t h is i s w h e r e t h e y s a i d , l o o k w e c a n o ff e r

d is c o u n te d c e ll p h o n e c o n tr a c ts t o a ll p u b lic s e r v a n ts a n d th e M i n i s t e r
in D P S A w o u ld b e a b le to i s s u e a d ir e c t iv e t o t h e e n t ir e p u b lic s e r v ic e
a ft e r m e e t i n g w i t h th e Tr e a s u r y a s w e l l t o b a s i c a ll y s a y, l o o k h e r e i s
t h is g r o u p o f y o u n g in d i v i d u a ls l e t t h e m p r o v i d e c e l l p h o n e c o n tr a c t s t o
t h e e n tir e p u b l ic s e r v i c e . A n d th a t o b v i o u s ly w o u ld h a v e – w o u l d h a v e
m e a n t t h a t th e y w o u l d h a v e h a d a v e r y w e a lt h y c o n tr a c t a s s i g n e d t o
t h e m t h r o u g h th e Mi n is t e r i n P u b li c S e r v i c e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n a t th a t
stage.
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d t h r o u g h w h ic h v e h ic le d i d t h e y w is h t o

p u r s u e t h is v e n t u r e ?
MR SIMONS:

T h a t o n e w a s a l s o w h e n t h e y m e e ti n g w i t h u s a t t h is

p a r t ic u l a r s ta g e t h e y w e r e s ti ll m e e t in g w it h u s a s W e in t e l li g e n t t o tr y
a n d e n s u r e t h a t – t h a t t h i s c o n tr a c t p r o g r e s s e s .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

W i t h r e g a r d to t h a t i f I c a n j u s t r e fe r t o y o u

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what you have said in paragraph 26.
MR SIMONS: 6.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I f y o u c a n ju s t t e l l m e i f t h a t is c o r r e c t o r n o t ?
M R S I M O N S : J a . S o a t t h is s ta g e I a ls o r e p o r t e d t o t h e M in is t e r t h a t i t
s e e m s a s i f t h e r e w a s c o n fl ic t i n t h e g r o u p a n d t h e c o ll e a g u e s w h o –
n o t t h e c o ll e a g u e s b u t t h e y o u n g p e o p l e w h o w e r e r e f e r r in g t o
t h e m s e l v e s a s Z u m a f a m il y m e m b e r s t h e n m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r t h a t t h e r e
w a s s o m e c o n tr a c ts t h a t t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o r u n t h r o u g h s o m e
e m p o w e r m e n t g r o u p w h ic h t h e y w e r e d ir e c tl y r e s p o n s i b l e f o r.
10

Now

s o m e h o w I w il l h a v e to t r y a n d f i n d o u t e x a c tl y w h ic h c o m p a n y t h e y
w e r e r e fe r r i n g to b u t t h e y w e r e r e f e r r in g t o a c o m p a n y th a t t h e y w o u l d
d ir e c t ly c o n tr o l .

A n d th a t is w h e n I th e n r e a l is e d th a t e v e n i n t h i s

g r o u p t h e r e w e r e p e o p le w h o – w h o w e r e lo o k in g a t t h e g r o u p in i ts
e n t ir e t y a n d t h e n t h e m e e t in g s w it h s o m e o f t h e s e i n d iv i d u a l s w e r e
b e g in n i n g t o s a y t h a t i t w a s a

– a

m o r e Z u m a l in k e d

fa m i ly

e m p o w e r m e n t g r o u p t h a t t h e y w a n t e d t o b e n e f i t fr o m t h i s c o n tr a c t .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d y o u r e c e i v e a p r o p o s a l fr o m t h e m w i t h
r e g a r d t o t h e b u s i n e s s t h e y w is h to d o w it h G e m s , t h e g o v e r n m e n t
medical aid?
20

M R S I M O N S : I n - i n f a c t a s i n d i c a t e d I t h i n k i f I - i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tly
G E M S h a d a d v e r ti s e d f o r c o m p a n ie s to te n d e r fo r a m a s s iv e m a r k e ti n g ,
b r a n d i n g , c o m m u n ic a ti o n s , P R c o n tr a c t o f t h e ir s a n d t h e s e c o l l e a g u e s
t h e n f e l t t h a t w e s h o u l d i n f a c t p u s h th e ir c o m p a n y v e r y s tr o n g ly f o r
t h is a n d t h is w a s t h e n t h e f ir s t ti m e w h e r e - w h e r e I w a s a c t u a l ly to ld
lo o k h e r e is a - o u r c o m p a n y p r o fi l e .

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C a n y o u t a k e t h is t o G E M S a n d g iv e i t to th e m ?

They then

a s s u m e d th a t b y d o i n g t h a t …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: When you say “they” what do you mean?
M R S I M O N S : T h e - t h e y o u n g a d u l ts …
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: Oh, yes.
M R S I M O N S : W h o w a n t e d t h is b u s i n e s s a s s u m e d t h a t if - i f I t a k e i t t o
t h e m t h a t t h is c o n tr a c t w a s j u s t a u t o m a t i c a l ly g o in g t o b e a w a r d e d to
t h e m , b u t w e a l l k n o w t h a t t h a t w a s n o t h o w i t w a s s u p p o s e d to - t o
operate within Government.
10

stage.

I m a d e t h a t v e r y c le a r t o t h e m a t t h a t

Th a t y o u - y o u a r e n o t j u s t g o i n g to g e t th is - b u t th e n th e y

in s is t e d th a t w e a t le a s t e n s u r e t h a t - t h a t t h e y g e t - t h a t w e d e l iv e r t h e
- t h e p r o fil e o f t h e c o m p a n y t o t h e m .
T h a t w a s t h e fir s t s t a g e a t t h a t s t a g e w h e r e I t h e n r e l e a s e d
t h a t t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r c o m p a n y in v o l v e d a s w e l l a n d th a t w a s
p a r t ic u l a r ly fo c u s e d o n - o n c o m m u n ic a ti o n s , b r a n d in g , m a r k e ti n g ,
a d v e r t is in g e t c e t e r a .

S o - s o I w a s h a n d e d a s a m p le .

I to o k t h e

s a m p le u p t o M i n is t e r C h a b a n e , b e c a u s e a t t h a t s t a g e t h e r e w a s
a n o t h e r c o n tr o v e r s y a r o u n d i t .
T h e y w e r e s a y i n g t h a t i t h a d t h e e n d o r s e m e n t o f L i t h u li
20

H o u s e . I w e n t t o Mi n is te r C h a b a n e a n d I s a i d M i n is te r I - I a m to l d t h a t
t h is i s e n d o r s e d b y - b y L i t h u li H o u s e . T h a t - M in is t e r j u s t s a i d l o o k I
d o n o t t h in k t h a t is - is th e tr u t h . W h a t y o u c a n d o a n d t h e o n ly th i n g
y o u m u s t d o is g iv e t h e s a m p l e t o t h e r e l e v a n t p e r s o n i n - i n G E M S , b u t
a ls o m a k e it v e r y c l e a r th a t w e - w e d o n o t e x p e c t a n y th i n g t o h a p p e n .
Yo u a r e j u s t f o ll o w i n g a p r o c e s s w h e r e - w h e r e y o u c a n a ls o

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r e p o r t t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n t h is d o c u m e n t t o t h i s i n d iv id u a l . I - I f a i le d
to recall the name.

I k n o w i t w a s a w o m a n a n d I k n o w th a t s h e w a s

e i t h e r th e - t h e H e a d o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n s a t G E M S o r s h e w a s t h e
S p o k e s p e r s o n f o r - f o r G E M S , b u t I - I s e t u p t h e ir m e e ti n g a n d th a t
m e e ti n g I s e t i t u p t h r o u g h - t h r o u g h t h e o ff ic e - m y o ffi c e i n t h e
M i n is tr y a t D P S A a n d - a n d th a t m e e t in g - I d o n o t k n o w i f I r e c a l l t h e
d a t e e x a c tl y, b u t I a c t u a l ly m e t w i t h h e r a t a - a r e s t a u r a n t i n - in
G r o e n k l o o f in P r e t o r ia .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL: And what happened?
10

M R S I M O N S : A t t h a t m e e t in g I t o o k t h e e n v e l o p e . I g a v e it t o h e r. I
t o l d h e r t h a t l o o k t h e r e is m u l ti m i ll i o n R a n d c o n t r a c t t h a t y o u h a v e
a d v e r t is e d . T h a t th e s e p e o p le a r e f a m i ly m e m b e r s o f t h e P r e s i d e n t . I
t h e n v e r y c l e a r l y in d i c a t e d t h a t i t w a s a t t h a t s t a g e B u s a Zu m a a n d
M q o n d is i Z u m a a n d th a t t h e y - i n th is e n v e l o p e t h e r e i s a - a p r o fil e o f
a c o m p a n y. T h a t t h e y b e li e v e s h o u ld g e t t h is c o n tr a c t .
S h e - s h e w a s v e r y - I c o u ld s e e t h a t s h e w a s e it h e r u p s e t o r
v e r y n e r v o u s a b o u t - a b o u t w h a t I w a s t e l li n g h e r. To p u t h e r m i n d a t
e a s e th e r e I a c tu a l ly t o ld h e r th a t lo o k . T h e y d o n o t h a v e t o g e t t h is
c o n tr a c t.

20

T h a t is n o t w h y - w h y I a m h e r e .

I a m j u s t d e liv e r i n g th is

e n v e l o p e . S h e w a n t - i n q u ir e d a b o u t t h e M i n is t e r a n d I t o l d h e r t h a t t h e
M i n is t e r i s v e r y a w a r e t h a t th e m e e t in g i s t a k i n g p la c e , b e c a u s e a t t h a t
s t a g e it is a ls o l o g g e d o n m y - my lo g b o o k .
I d r o v e fr o m t h e o ffi c e t o - t o th is p a r ti c u l a r m e e ti n g a n d t h e
M i n is t e r i s a w a r e . Th a t s h e d o e s n o t n e e d t o p a n ic . T h a t i t is b e y o n d
o u r c o n t r o l , b u t h a n d in g o v e r t h e e n v e l o p e d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t t h e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
c o n tr a c t is - i s b e i n g a w a r d e d to t h is p a r ti c u l a r c o m p a n y.
m e m o r y r e c a lls c o r r e c t ly.

I - i f my

I d o n o t t h in k th e y - t h e y w e r e e v e n

c o n s i d e r e d f o r th a t p a r t ic u l a r c o n t r a c t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And Mr Simons as far as you are aware did

t h e s e i n d iv i d u a l s s u c c e e d i n o b t a in i n g a n y G o v e r n m e n t c o n tr a c t s
t h r o u g h y o u r in tr o d u c ti o n s ?
M R S I M O N S : F r o m - f r o m o u r s i d e n o t a s in g le c o n tr a c t w a s a w a r d e d
t o th e m .

I - I - a s in d ic a t e d t h e i m a g e a n d I k n o w J u d g e y o u k n o w

m a ’a m m a n y p e o p le s a y y o u c a n n o t s p e a k o n b e h a l f o f a d e a d p e r s o n ,
10

b u t s o m e p e o p le t e n d t o s p e a k n e g a t iv e ly o f s o m e o n e w h o h a d p a s s e d
o n a n d - a n d th e M i n i s te r t h a t w e k n e w w a s a v e r y - v e r y d i ff e r e n t d i ff e r e n t c h a r a c t e r.
I n fa c t h e d e s p i s e d c o r r u p ti o n t o a - t o a n e x te n t t h a t h e
h a t e d i t to - t o a l e v e l w h e r e - w h e r e h e w o u l d n o t w a n t to w a n t b e s e e n
o r a s s o c ia t e d w i t h - w i t h p e o p l e w h o d ir e c t ly p r a c ti c e d a l e v e l o f - o f
c o r r u p ti o n .

H e - h e w a s o n e o f th o s e M i n is t e r s w h e r e if y o u s a t a t a

p a r t ic u l a r e v e n t y o u w o u ld n e v e r fi n d h i m s i t ti n g a l o n e .

H e w o u ld

m i n g l e w it h i n d i v i d u a ls o r d i n a r y P u b li c S e r v a n ts a n d s o o n .
E v e n in v i ti n g t h e m t o c o m e a n d s i t w i th h i m . S o - s o h e m a d e
20

it v e r y c le a r t h a t lo o k I - I - th is is o u r G o v e r n m e n t. H e u s e d t o s p e a k
v e r y o f t e n a b o u t t h e s a c r i fic e s th e y - t h e y m a d e . P a r ti c u la r ly th o s e o f
u s h o w g r e w u p in - i n t h e 7 0 ’s a n d t h e 8 0 9 ’s a s w e ll a n d o b v i o u s ly
b e f o r e t h a t a n d - a n d t h e q u e s ti o n h e w o u l d a s k w a s is - is t h i s t h e
A N C th a t - th a t p e o p l e d ie d fo r.
Is t h is t h e A N C th a t p e o p l e p a i d t h e u l t i m a t e s a c r i f ic e f o r - f o r

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e x a m p l e a n d - a n d is t h is t h e c o u n tr y t h a t - t h a t w e w a n t t h is c o u n tr y t o
m o v e i n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r d ir e c ti o n a n d - a n d h i s o w n a n s w e r s w o u l d b e
t h a t - th a t w e s h o u l d s to p a n d p r e v e n t th is c o u n tr y fr o m g o i n g in t h e
w r o n g d ir e c ti o n a n d - a n d th a t is w h y I c a n s a y, b e c a u s e h e - i t w a s a n
in s t r u c t i o n fr o m h i m .
T h a t lo o k m e e t w i t h th e m , b u t m a k e s u r e t h a t n o t h i n g n o t h i n g m a te r i a l is e s a n d k e e p t h e m a w a y f r o m o u r o ff ic e .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w e r e t h e s e i n d i v i d u a ls h a p p y w i t h th e

f a c t t h a t a ll th e s e i n tr o d u c t i o n s a n d m e e t in g s w i t h y o u l e d to n o u g h t ?
10

MR SIMONS:

No.

T h e y w e r e n o t h a p p y a n d - a n d t h a t i s w h y th e y

s t a r t e d is s u i n g th r e a ts a t s o m e o f th e ir - t h e ir m e e ti n g s . Yo u k n o w t h a t
w e w i ll r e p o r t y o u t o th e Pr e s id e n t .

W e w i ll r e p o r t y o u t o K h u l u b u s e

a n d t h e y w o u l d e v e n b r i n g c e r ta i n m e s s a g e s s o m e ti m e s fr o m - fr o m - I
m e a n I a s s u m e i t c o m e s fr o m h i m , b e c a u s e th e y r e f e r t o h i m a s - a s a
f a t h e r fi g u r e .
S a y i n g th a t K h u l u b u s e is n o t h a p p y w i th t h e d e l a y s . Th a t h e
w a n ts t o m e e t w i t h t h e M i n is t e r a n d t h a t h e w il l d e a l w i th y o u . S o - s o
t h o s e a r e t h i n g s t h a t - t h a t th e y w o u ld s a y a t s o m e o f t h e s e m e e ti n g s
w h e n i t b e c a m e v e r y c l e a r th a t i n s t e a d o f m a k i n g t h e r o a d e a s i e r f o r
20

t h e m w e - w e w e r e a c t u a lly b e g i n n i n g t o m a k e i t a l it t le b it m o r e - m o r e
d i ff ic u l t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Could

you

please

tell

the

C h a ir

h a p p e n e d a t th e O liv e r Ta m b o I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t?
MR SIMONS: Hm.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : W h ic h y o u r e f e r t o i n p a r a g r a p h 3 3 .

Page 128 of 155

what

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
MR SIMONS:

Ye s a n d b e f o r e th a t y o u - y o u w o u l d s e e p a r t o f t h e s e

s t a te m e n ts t h e y w e r e m a d e w a s th a t “ K h u l u b u s e is b e c o m i n g i m p a ti e n t.
D o n o t l e t h i m c o m e t o a m e e t in g a n d d e a l w i th y o u ” a n d I p u t th a t i n in q u o t a ti o n m a r k s t h e r e , b e c a u s e th a t i s h o w i t w a s c a r r i e d o v e r to m e .
S o - s o o n o n e o f t h e s e o c c a s io n s w e w e r e a s k e d - i n f a c t I w a s p h o n e d
and I was asked looked we need to meet with you, because Khulubuse
is n o w i m p a ti e n t.
S o w e m u s t m e e t w it h y o u a n d I t h e n i n d ic a te d th a t l o o k t h e y
w a n t e d a m e e t in g w i t h t h e M i n is te r a s w e l l. I l ie d . I s a id t h e M in is t e r
10

is a lr e a d y o n h is w a y o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y. W e w e r e o n o u r w a y o u t o f t h e
c o u n tr y, b u t I s a i d h e is a lr e a d y o u t a n d t h a t I a m j o i n i n g h i m a n d th e y
then asked me where are you.
I s a i d I a m o n m y w a y t o O R Ta m b o In t e r n a t io n a l a n d th e y
s a i d lo o k c a n w e m e e t w i th y o u a t O R Ta m b o th e n a n d I s a i d o k a y. N o
p r o b le m . S o w e h a d a m e e ti n g a t O R Ta m b o . T h e y th e n m a d e i t v e r y
c le a r t h e r e t h a t K h u l u b u s e w o u l d w a n t t o m e e t w it h t h e M i n is t e r,
b e c a u s e o f w h a t t h e y t e r m e d o u r d e la y i n g t a c tic s a n d t h a t I m u s t n o t b e
s u r p r is e d i f - i f K h u l u b u s e t h e n j u s t p i tc h e s u p a n d c o m e s b o x m e ,
b e c a u s e h e - h e w a s a n g r y.

20

H e w a s u p s e t t h a t t h e r e is n o p r o g r e s s w i t h a n y o f t h e
c o n tr a c ts a n d I a m t a lk i n g fr o m th e P r e s i d e n c y p e r i o d n o w. S o - s o - I
m e a n w e - w e h a d t h a t d is c u s s i o n . I s a i d I w o u ld b r in g i t o v e r t o th e
M i n is t e r ’s a t t e n t io n a n d w e l e f t. I m e a n w e w e n t o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d
they went back to - to Sandton.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : A n d d i d t h e y tr y …

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u - I a m s o r r y M s W e n tz e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e d e a li n g w i th w h a t is a t p a g e 1 2 o f y o u r - o f
t h e a ff i d a v i t , b u t e a r l ie r o n a n d I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u s a i d t h i s a n d I d i d
n o t h e a r y o u . Yo u d e a l w i t h - y o u d e a l t w i t h t h e - M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e ’s
f a il u r e o r r e fu s a l t o r e n e w M r M a n y i ’s c o n tr a c t a s th e C E O o f G C I S o r
…
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D G o f G C I S . C a n y o u j u s t t a lk m o r e a b o u t t h a t?
10

MR SIMONS: The - the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u s a i d …
M R S I M O N S : S o r r y. Th e r e m o v a l o f Mr M a s e k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d p a r a g r a p h 4 8 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t .
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

D G s - D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a ls e m p l o y e d o n a f iv e y e a r

c o n tr a c t a n d th e n y o u s a y w h e n M r M a n y i r e p l a c e d M r M a s e k o . H e w a s
s t il l w i th i n f iv e - h i s fiv e y e a r c o n tr a c t . D o y o u w a n t t o t a l k m o r e a b o u t
t h a t ? H o w - w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n M r M a n y i ’s c o n tr a c t a s D G o f G C I S
came to an end after he had replaced Mr Maseko?
20

M R S I M O N S : A t - a t t h a t p a r tic u la r t i m e I w a s a t G C I S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
MR SIMONS: Ja. So …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , b u t I w a n t y o u to t a l k a b o u t t h a t .
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
M R S I M O N S : W e l l m a n y - m a n y o f u s w e r e v e r y r e l ie v e d w h e n - w h e n
w e g o t th a t n e w s , b u t fr o m t h e p e r s p e c t iv e o f t h e M in is t e r.

As I

in d i c a t e d t h e la s t t i m e I t h i n k w e w e r e in A u s tr a li a w h e n h e - h e s p o k e
a b o u t i t . I t h i n k th e th e n … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is M in is t e r C h a b a n e ?
MR SIMONS: Chabane, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Yo u w e r e w i th h i m i n A u s tr a l ia ?
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R S I M O N S : A n d - a n d I th in k t h a t w h a t h a p p e n e d w a s t h a t th a t t h e
M i n is t e r - n o t th e Mi n is t e r.
N k a n d la R e p o r t .

T h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r w a s r e l e a s i n g th e

N o w w h i l e w e w e r e s i t t in g i n A u s tr a li a t h e M i n i s t e r

t h e n s a id l o o k w e s h o u ld d e a l w i th t h e N k a n d l a i s s u e v e r y d e c is i v e ly
a n d w e d r a ft e d a - a s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o . I d o n o t w a n t y o u t o t a k e i t f r o m t h a t .
M R S I M O N S : O h , o k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: As far as that, because …
M R S I M O N S : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I r e m e m b e r y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h a t.
20

MR SIMONS: Ja. Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t I d o n o t r e m e m b e r y o u d e a l in g w i th e i t h e r y o u r
fir s t - w h e n y o u c a m e h e r e fir s t t i m e …
MR SIMONS: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r t o d a y i s w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n M r M a n y i ’s c o n tr a c t
a s D G o f G C I S c a m e t o a n e n d , b e c a u s e y o u d o d e a l w i t h it in y o u r

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
a ffi d a v i t .
MR SIMONS: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t ?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S I M O N S : I n f a c t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t p a r a g r a p h s 4 8 a n d 4 9 ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t Mr M a n y i.

Yo u r e m e m b e r

Mr Themba Maseko was DG of GCIS.
MR SIMONS: Ja.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w a s r e m o v e d a n d h e w e n t to D P S A …
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And he was replaced at GCIS by Mr …
MR SIMONS: Manyi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mz w a n e le M a n y i …
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

And

you

say

in

your

a ff id a v i t

when

M r Mz w a n e le M a n y i c a m e t o G C I S h e w a s w it h in h i s c o n tr a c t o f fi v e
years as a DG …
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: And he had been DG of the Department of Labour …
M R S I M O N S : L a b o u r. Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d d o y o u r e c a ll w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n Mr M a n y i ’s

c o n tr a c t c a m e t o a n e n d ?
MR SIMONS:

D o y o u w a n t m e to e x p l a i n t h a t t o y o u fr o m m y

p e r s p e c t iv e a s a G C S - G C I S … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja or let me - let me ask you the question.

Did

M r C h a b a n e r e n e w M r M a n y i - M a n y i ’s c o n t r a c t a s D G o f G C I S ?
M R S I M O N S : N o . H e d id n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w h o w t h a t c a m e a b o u t t h a t h e m a d e th a t
d e c is i o n ?
MR SIMONS:

I n - in f a c t f r o m - f r o m m y e x p e r i e n c e a s a - a s o n e o f

t h e S e n i o r M a n a g e r s i n G C I S t h e r e w a s a v e r y g o o d r e l a ti o n s h i p
b e t w e e n t h e l a t e M i n is t e r a n d M r T h e m b a M a s e k o .

From what I know

a n d w h a t I u n d e r s ta n d a n d e v e n w h e n I g o t to t h e - t h e M i n is tr y i n t h e
10

P r e s i d e n c y.
A f t e r w a r d s th a t r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s n o t t h e s a m e l e v e l b e t w e e n
t h e l a t e M i n is te r a n d - a n d M r M a n y i . S o w h e n Mr M a n y i ’s c o n tr a c t fo r
e x a m p l e c a m e t o a n e n d th e M in is t e r w a s v e r y c l e a r t h e n t h a t h e w a s
not going to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To r e n e w i t ?
MR SIMONS: Renew it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : T h a t i n f a c t l e a d s m e t o - to a n o t h e r i s s u e w h ic h i s n o t i n
t h e - t h e a ffi d a v i t , b u t …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B e f o r e y o u d e a l w i t h i t .
MR SIMONS: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is o n e t h a t I s e e i n th e a ffi d a v i t . D i d - d o y o u
k n o w w h e t h e r - w h e t h e r t h e P r e s i d e n t a t t h e t i m e h a d a n y p a r ti c u l a r
p o s i ti o n a b o u t w h e th e r Mr M a n y i s h o u l d - M a n y i ’s c o n tr a c t s h o u ld b e
renewed or not?

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M R S I M O N S : I n - i n f a c t th e r e w e r e s o m e p e o p l e w h o b e li e v e d t h a t th e
c o n tr a c t w a s g o i n g t o b e r e n e w e d . T h a t a n e w fi v e y e a r c o n tr a c t w a s
going to be awarded.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SIMONS:

I n s t e a d w h a t w e d id w a s in t h e P r e s i d e n c y w h e n w e

r e a l is e d t h a t M r M a n y i w a s s ti ll r e p r e s e n t i n g G C I S o n t h e M D D A B o a r d
w h ic h h e w a s n o t s u p p o s e d to h a v e b e e n d o i n g a t t h a t s ta g e . W e w r o te
a le t t e r t o t h e P r e s i d e n t r e q u e s ti n g t h a t M r M a n y i a l s o b e r e m o v e d fr o m
t h e M D D A B o a r d b e c a u s e h e w a s o c c u p y i n g a p o s i t io n t h a t t e c h n ic a l ly
10

b e l o n g e d t o - t o G C I S a n d h e w a s n o l o n g e r r e p r e s e n t in g G C I S .
S o f r o m t h a t l e tt e r a ls o h e y o u c a n - i t is c l e a r th a t - t h a t
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w a s n o t t o o k e e n o n - o n h a v i n g M r M a n y i i n - i n
G o v e r n m e n t a n d in p a r tic u la r b a c k a t G C I S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L o o k a t - l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 4 9 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it . D o
y o u - is t h a t - is t h a t w h a t - i s w h a t y o u s a y t h e r e tr u e ? D o y o u w h a t t o
r e a d it ?
MR SIMONS:

“In

fact

M in is t e r C h a b a n e

in f o r m e d

me

p e r s o n a l ly t h a t M r Z u m a w a s v e r y a n g r y w i t h h i m
o v e r h i s r e f u s a l to e x t e n d /r e n e w t h e c o n tr a c t o f
20

Mr Manyi.”
A n d t h a t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t r u e ?
M R S I M O N S : T h a t is w h a t M r - t h e l a te M i n is t e r C h a b a n e i n f o r m e d m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h a t y o u w e r e t o l d b y M i n is te r C h a b a n e ?
MR SIMONS:

Ja.

Th is w a s w h a t I r e p o r t e d w h e n - w h e n w e - w e -

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
when I gave evidence …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S I M O N S : A fe w m o n th s a g o …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S I M O N S : A n d t h i s is p a r t o f w h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you covered that.
M R S I M O N S : J a , a n d th is i s p a r t o f w h a t h a p p e n e d i n - i n A u s tr a li a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SIMONS: When I explained.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o . Th a n k y o u . T h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t
y o u s a i d w a s n o t h e r e . Is t h a t …
M R S I M O N S : N o , n o . I i n fa c t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e d e a l t w it h i t n o w ?
M R S I M O N S : I n f a c t I s e e i t is h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A lr i g h t.
MR SIMONS: Paragraph 50.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
M R S I M O N S : W h e r e I s a id t h a t :

20

“ S h o r tl y b e f o r e A p r il t h e - b e f o r e t h e A p r il 2 0 1 4
e l e c ti o n s … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR SIMONS:
the

“ … I d r a f t e d a l e tt e r f o r M in is te r C h a b a n e f o r
a t t e n t io n

of

the

P r e s id e n t

r e q u e s ti n g

and

in f o r m i n g h i m t h a t M r M a n y i w a s n o lo n g e r t h e C E O

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
o f G C I S a n d t h e r e f o r e h a d t o v a c a te t h e p o s i t io n h e
was occupying on the MDDA Board.”
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M s W e n tz e l .
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : Th a n k y o u . J u s t to fi n i s h o ff o n th e b u s i n e s s
d e a li n g s o f t h e y o u n g g e n t le m e n .

A f t e r t h e e v e n t o f O l iv e r Ta m b o

A ir p o r t w a s a f u r t h e r a t te m p t m a d e b y a n y o f t h e m t o c o n ta c t
M r C h a b a n e - M i n i s te r C h a b a n e ?
MR SIMONS:

I n - in f a c t o n - o n - I c a n n o t r e c a l l i f i t w a s t h a t

p a r t ic u l a r tr ip , b e c a u s e M in is t e r C h a b a n e w a s v e r y a c t iv e w i th t h e - t h e
10

e n v o y a p p o i n te d b y t h e - t h e Pr e s i d e n t t o n e g o ti a te t h e - t h e p e a c e
s e t tl e m e n t i n - i n S o u t h S u d a n a t th a t s t a g e . S o w e w o u ld v e r y o f t e n
fi n d o u r s e lv e s f ly in g t o S o u th S u d a n , E t h i o p i a o r K e n y a w h e r e t h e - t h e
- b e c a u s e K e n y a w a s a ls o p a r t o f t h e - t h e A U f a c il i ta t i n g c o u n tr y t o
e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e w a s s ta b il it y i n - i n S o u t h S u d a n .
So at one of our - Minister Chabane would - would - I mean
o n a ll t h e tr ip s t h a t I t r a v e ll e d w i t h h i m .

H e s t a y e d a t th e

I n t e r c o n ti n e n t a l i n - i n N a ir o b i a n d t h a t w a s t h e - o n e o f th e l a s t
in c i d e n ts w h e r e I r e c a l l a Z u m a fa m i ly m e m b e r d ir e c t ly w h e r e - w h e r e I
w a s a w i t n e s s t o i t t r y i n g t o m e e t w i t h M in is t e r C h a b a n e , b u t t h a t
20

m e e ti n g n e v e r - n e v e r h a p p e n e d a t t h e h o t e l .
Whether
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e .

the

f a m il y

member

was

there

to

meet

with

T h a t s o l e ly I c a n n o t - I c a n n o t v e r if y th a t a s w e ll ,

b e c a u s e I d o r e c a ll r e a d in g t h a t a n d t h e y w e r e a ls o in v o lv e d w i t h
p o t e n t i a l b u s i n e s s d e a ls i n - i n S u d a n - o i l d e a ls in t h a t p a r t o f th e t h e c o n t in e n t . S o - s o N a ir o b i w o u l d p r o b a b ly j u s t h a v e b e e n a - a v e r y

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
c e n tr a l p l a c e f o r p e o p l e to m e e t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h o is t h e f a m il y m e m b e r y o u a r e

r e fe r r i n g t o ?
M R S I M O N S : A s i n d ic a te d i t i s Mr K h u l u b u s e Zu m a .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w h a t d id M i n is t e r C h a b a n e s a y w h e n h e

said he wanted to meet him?
M R S I M O N S : H e s a id I m u s t e n s u r e t h a t n o m e e t in g t a k e s p l a c e . T h a t
h e d i d n o t w a n t to m e e t w i t h h i m .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
10

N o w Mr S i m o n s f r o m p a r a g r a p h 5 1 o f y o u r

a ffi d a v i t y o u a l s o d e a l w it h th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r S t e v e Ts h w e t e ’s s o n
a s t h e D D G i n t h e C o m m u n i c a t io n s D e p a r t m e n t o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f
H o m e A ff a ir s u n d e r M i n is t e r G ig a b a .
MR SIMONS: Ja.
A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : C o u l d y o u e x p l a i n h o w M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w a s
in v o lv e d w i t h th is ?
MR SIMONS:

A s t h e r e le v a n t M i n is t e r a n d I t h i n k J u d g e I n e e d t o

e x p l a i n t h e r e l e v a n c e o f i t . Br o a d ly t h e r e l e v a n c e o f i t is t h a t t h is w a s
o n e o f t h e o c c a s io n s w h e r e t h e M i n i s te r in d i c a t e d t o m e - h e i n fa c t
c a m e t o m y h o te l I w a s s ta y i n g a t i n - i n C a p e To w n .
20

So after the

C a b in e t m e e t i n g h a d - h a d e n d e d I w a s i n b e d a lr e a d y a n d h e c a m e .
H e p h o n e d o n my c e ll .
then

the

-

the

room

phone

I got to the cellphone too late and
rang.

I

answered

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w h o s a i d lo o k I a m d o w n s t a ir s .

it.

It

was

Come - come down

a n d - a n d I w a n t t o h a v e a c h a t . S o I - I w e n t d o w n . I t w a s r o u g h ly
a b o u t 11 o ’ c l o c k / h a l f p a s t 11 th e e v e n in g . T h e M i n is te r t h e n in d ic a t e d

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
t o m e h e is c o n c e r n e d .
S a y i n g t h a t fo r - f o r t h e fir s t ti m e h e w a s t o l d a ft e r s o m e ti m e
w i t h i n t h e A N C a n d a f te r s o m e ti m e a s - a s a s e n i o r p o l it ic ia n t h a t t h i s
is a p o li ti c a l d e c is i o n a n d th e r e fo r e t h e o n l y t h i n g I h a d t o d o w a s - w a s
e n d o r s e t h a t a n d I a s k e d w h a t h e w a s r e f e r r i n g to a n d h e w a s r e f e r r i n g
t o th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f M r Ts h w e t e a s t h e D D G in t h e O ff ic e o f t h e th e n
M i n is t e r - I th in k i t w a s - w a s i t H o m e A ff a i r s - M r G i g a b a .
N o w D P S A r a is e d c e r t a in c o n c e r n s a t t h a t s t a g e w i th t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t i ts e l f .
10

P a r t o f th a t w o u l d b e f o r e x a m p l e y o u n e e d e d a

p a r t ic u l a r a m o u n t o f y e a r s o f e x p e r i e n c e t o b e a p p o i n t e d a t a D D G
le v e l. Yo u n e e d e d c e r t a i n q u a li fi c a t io n s i n o r d e r f o r y o u t o - t o b e a t
t h a t l e v e l a n d s o m e o f t h e r e p o r t s a n d I th i n k i t is a l s o a t t a c h e d i n t h e in th e a ff i d a v i t w h e r e D P S A a ls o r a is e d c o n c e r n s w i t h t h e o v e r a l l
c o m p e te n c y o f - o f t h e n o m i n a te d c a n d i d a t e f o r t h is p a r t ic u l a r p o s t , b u t
t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e to a n d f r o m b e tw e e n H o m e A ff a i r s - a t t h a t s t a g e and - and DPSA was that they wanted the appointment expedited.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ir r e s p e c t iv e o f w h e t h e r t h e c a n d i d a t e q u a li f ie d o r

not?
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is …
MR SIMONS: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s t h e i r s ta n c e ?
M R S I M O N S : I n - i n fa c t p a r t o f t h e p r o c e s s w i th i n G o v e r n m e n t a n d I
t h i n k m a y b e e v e n i n t h e p r iv a t e s e c t o r.

I f y o u w a n t a p a r ti c u l a r

c a n d i d a t e a p p o in t e d a n d - a n d y o u r p r e s c r i p ts w o u l d s a y th e a d v e r t

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
m u s t in d ic a t e t h a t y o u r e q u i r e a p o s t g r a d u a t e q u a l if ic a ti o n .

Yo u c a n

c h a n g e t h e a d v e r t to s o m e e x t e n t t h a t y o u c a n s a y y o u k n o w y o u a r e
lo o k in g f o r a t h r e e y e a r q u a li f ic a t i o n , r e l e v a n t q u a li fi c a t io n o r y o u c a n
b e v e r y d ir e c t .
S o - s o D P S A h a d r a is e d c e r t a i n c o n c e r n s r e g a r d i n g t h e - t h e
process.

R e g a r d i n g th e a p p o i n t m e n t a n d o b v i o u s ly t h e M in is t e r fe l t

t h a t h e w a s w i t h i n h is l e g i s l a tiv e d u ty t h e n to - to s i t, a s k c e r t a i n
q u e s t io n s a n d t h e n t o a p p ly h is m i n d b e c a u s e t h e - t h e m e m o r a n d u ms
f o r a p p o i n t m e n t f r o m D e p u ty D i r e c to r - G e n e r a l l e v e l u p w a r d s g o e s
10

t h r o u g h t h e P u b li c S e r v i c e a n d A d m i n i s t r a t iv e M i n i s te r.
S o M i n is t e r C h a b a n e h a d n o t s i g n e d th e - th e m e m o r a n d u m .
T h e a p p o i n t m e n t w a s - w a s - t h e - t h e - w e ll w a s m a d e .
d is c u s s e d I t h i n k a t C a b i n e t le v e l .

It was

C a b i n e t h a d a n n o u n c e d th a t th e

a p p o i n t m e n t i s e n d o r s e d a n d th e f o l lo w in g d a y th e M i n i s t e r s i g n e d t h e
relevant documentation.

I - I d o u b t t h a t h e s ti ll s i g n e d t h e a c t u a l

m e m o r a n d u m - C a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m , b e c a u s e i t w a s a lr e a d y d is c u s s e d
a t - a t th a t l e v e l a n d t e c h n ic a l ly e n d o r s e d .
So when he came to my hotel he was - he was - again you
k n o w M i n is t e r s a r e h u m a n a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y. Th e y a r e p r o n e to a ll
20

e m o ti o n a l c h a r a c t e r is ti c s t h a t w e a s - a s a n y h u m a n w o u l d b e e x p o s e d
t o a n d - a n d I th i n k h e - h e f e l t a b i t u p s e t a n d - a n d a ls o a li t tl e b i t o f
anger at that stage, because he was saying you know that I thought I I u s e d b e i n t h e - i n th e in n e r c ir c l e w h e r e - w h e r e p o li ti c a l d e c is io n s
a r e m a d e a n d t h e n I a m t o ld t h a t i t is a p o l it ic a l d e c i s i o n a n d I a m - I - I
w a s n o t e v e n p a r ty t o t h a t d is c u s s i o n , b u t i t i s t h e r e s p o n s i b il i ty o f t h e

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
r e l e v a n t M i n is te r a n d t h a t is w h y h e th e n s ig n e d t h e - t h e d o c u m e n t s .
I t w a s n o t b a c k d a t e d . I t i n f a c t r e fl e c ts th e - t h e a c t u a l d a t e s
w h e n - w h e n h e s ig n e d i t.

S o t h a t w a s p a r t o f th e - th e d is c u s s io n s

t h a t th e M in is t e r w o u l d f o r e x a m p l e r a is e w i t h y o u w h e n h e - w h e n h e
w a n t e d t o t a lk to s o m e o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w d o y o u h a v e a c l e a r r e c o l le c t i o n w h e th e r f o r

e x a m p l e i n th e c a s e o f M r Ts h w e t e .

M r M a y i h l o m e Ts h w e t e w h e t h e r

w h a t - w h a t r e q u ir e m e n t s h e d id n o t m e e t f o r t h a t p o s i t i o n o f D e p u ty G
…
10

MR SIMONS: He …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r d o y o u n o l o n g e r h a v e a c l e a r r e c o ll e c ti o n o f t h a t ?
M R S I M O N S : I t h i n k t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n i s - is in t h e a ff id a v i t a s w e l l ,
b u t it t a l k s a b o u t t h e - a t t h a t s t a g e i t s p e c i fic a lly r e f e r r e d t o th e - t h e
o v e r a l l c o m p e t e n c y. T h e c o m p e te n c y i n t e r m s o f w h e t h e r y o u h a v e th e
a b il i ty t o m a n a g e s ta ff .

W h e t h e r y o u h a v e t h e a b il i ty to s i t a t a

p a r t ic u l a r e x e c u tiv e l e v e l a n d - a n d e n te r t a in a n d d is c u s s io n s e tc e t e r a .
T h e o th e r i s s u e s w e r e f o r e x a m p l e th e - th e C V w o u l d s a y
t h a t I q u a l i fi e d f o r - t o g e t a p a r tic u la r d e g r e e fr o m U n i s a in 2 0 1 3 a n d
t h e n 2 0 1 3 y o u a p p o in t e d a t - a t C h ie f D i r e c t o r l e v e l .
20

So part of the

c o n c e r n s w o u l d b e t h a t y o u - y o u n e e d t o h a v e a le v e l o f e x p e r ie n c e
e i t h e r a t D e p u ty D ir e c to r le v e l - a t D ir e c t o r le v e l in o r d e r fo r y o u t o
q u a li fy t o - to b e a C h i e f D i r e c t o r f o r e x a m p l e in - in G o v e r n m e n t a n d i n
o r d e r f o r y o u t o b e a p p o i n t e d a t D D G l e v e l y o u a ls o n e e d t o h a v e n e x t
t o y o u r o v e r a ll c o m p e t e n c ie s o u t s i d e o f t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e , b u t y o u
n e e d to h a v e a p a r t ic u l a r a m o u n t o f e x p e r i e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e g a in e d i n

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
t e r m s o f o v e r a ll m a n a g e m e n t o f s t a ff , f i n a n c e s .
S o - s o I t h i n k p a r t o f th e c o n c e r n s r a i s e d b y D P S A a t t h a t
s t a g e w a s a r o u n d f in a n c i a l m a n a g e m e n t a s p e c ts , o v e r a ll c o m p e t e n c y i n
t e r m s o f p e o p l e m a n a g e m e n t , s u p e r v is o r y r e s p o n s i b ili t ie s a n d a ls o I
t h i n k t h e r e is a d ir e c t r e f e r e n c e t o t h e p e r s o n d o e s n o t h a v e t h e - th e
r e l e v a n t a c a d e m ic q u a l i fic a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e l l - w e ll I a m i n t e r e s te d t o g e t r e l e v a n t

d o c u m e n ts t h a t m a y s h o w e x a c t ly w h a t w a s r e q u ir e d f o r t h e p o s i t io n
a n d w h a t i t i s th a t h e d id n o t h a v e t o m e e t t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts . W e h a v e
10

had

a

s it u a ti o n

-

M r R a m a tl h o d i a n d

we

have

had

evidence

where

Mr M o r p h e , M i n is te r Z w a n e o r

a c c o r d in g

to

his Department

M i n e r a l R e s o u r c e s w a n te d M in is t e r R a m a t l h o d i w h e n h e w a s M i n is t e r o f
P u b l ic S e r v ic e …
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

A d m i n i s t r a t io n

to

approve

th e

appointment

of

M r Mz w a n e le M a n y i a s D G o f …
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

Of

th e

Department

of

M in e r a l

Resources.

M r R a m a tl h o d i s a i d h e r e f u s e d …
20

M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To a p p r o v e th a t a p p o in t m e n t , b e c a u s e M r M a n y i d i d

n o t h a v e - I t h i n k a D e g r e e o r a P o s t G r a d u a te D e g r e e .

One of the

a c a d e m ic q u a li f ic a t i o n s t h a t w a s r e q u ir e d h e d i d n o t h a v e …
MR SIMONS: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

A c c o r d i n g to M r R a m a tl h o d i a n d h e r e f u s e d t o - to

Page 141 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
a p p r o v e h is a p p o in t m e n t . M r M o r p h e w h o w a s Mr R a m a tl h o d i’s A d v i s o r
at the

ti m e

gave evidence

th a t s u b s e q u e n t ly

Mr M a n y i w e n t to

M r M o r p h e a n d t o l d h i m t h a t t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t w a s v e r y u n h a p p y
a b o u t th e f a c t t h a t t h e y - I a s s u m e t h a t is M r R a m a t lh o d i - h a d r e f u s e d
to approve his appointment …
M R S I M O N S : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d - b u t n o b o d y h a s s a id M r R a m a t l h o d i w a s

m is t a k e n o r w a s w r o n g t o t h i n k t h a t M r M a n y i d i d n o t h a v e th e r e q u i r e d
a c a d e m ic q u a li f ic a t i o n s .
10

S o t h e p ic tu r e o n e g e ts i s a s i f t h e r e w a s a

r e q u ir e m e n t in t e r m s o f t h e l a w o r i n t e r m s o f th e a d v e r t to s a y t h e
p e o p l e w h o m a y b e a p p o i n te d - th e p e r s o n w h o m a y b e a p p o in t e d a s
D G m u s t h a v e t h is q u a li f ic a ti o n - a c a d e m i c q u a l i fic a t io n .
Mr Manyi did not have it.

S o Mr R a m a tl h o d i r e f u s e d , b u t

a c c o r d i n g to M r M o r p h e M r M a n y i w e n t to s e e h i m a n d s a i d t h e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t w a s v e r y u n h a p p y o r w a s u n h a p p y t h a t h e - th e y h a d r e f u s e d .
S o y o u a r e te ll in g m e n o w a b o u t a n i n s t a n c e w h e r e a s y o u r e c a l l
s o m e b o d y d i d n o t m e e t c e r t a i n r e q u ir e m e n ts a n d y o u r M i n i s t e r a t t h e
ti m e - M in is t e r o f D P S A a t t h e ti m e - Mr C h a b a n e - r e f u s e d t o a p p r o v e to approve the appointment of this person as DDG, but Cabinet over 20

o v e r r u l e d h i m . S o I - I w o u ld lik e to g e t m o r e i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t t h a t.
MR SIMONS: I …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f y o u c a n a s s is t w it h w h a te v e r i n f o r m a ti o n ,

d o c u m e n t a ti o n th a t y o u - t h e r e m a y b e o t h e r t h a n w h a t is h e r e . P l e a s e
do, but …
MR SIMONS: Ja.

Page 142 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:

It h a s b e e n m a n y y e a r s . S o i t m i g h t n o t b e e a s y t o

fi n d . O k a y.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir i t is 4 o ’c l o c k b u t I d o n ’ t e x p e c t t h a t

I’ ll b e m u c h l o n g e r w i th t h e w it n e s s , I d o n ’ t k n o w … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y le t ’s tr y a n d f in is h .

p r e f e r th a t t o o , l e t ’s tr y a n d f i n is h .

I’ m s u r e Mr S i m o n s w il l

I w o u l d i m a g i n e i t s h o u ld n ’ t ta k e

m o r e th a n te n m in u t e s to f in is h .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I don’t think so.

J a le t ’s tr y a n d f in is h .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir s u b s e q u e n t t o M r S i m o n s g iv i n g

e v i d e n c e t h e C o m m i s s i o n s i n v e s ti g a to r s a s k e d p u r s u a n t to r e q u e s t f o r
in f o r m a ti o n f r o m D P S I c e r ta i n d o c u m e n t a t io n h a s b e e n o b t a i n e d w h ic h
h a s a ls o b e e n i n c lu d e d i n th e b u n d l e .

I d o n ’ t k n o w i f i t ’s s u ffi c i e n t

d o c u m e n t a ti o n a n d w h e t h e r C h a ir y o u w o u l d l ik e u s to o b ta i n m o r e b u t I
c a n j u s t q u ic k ly g o … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t m u s t j u s t t e ll m e – i f it t e l ls m e w h a t r e q u ir e m e n ts

M r M h l o n g o Tw e tw e d id n o t m e e t a n d w h a t t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s w e r e f o r
t h e p o s i t io n th a t w il l b e e n o u g h .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
20

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s .
C o u ld I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 5 9 , i s i t c o r r e c t

t h a t th is is a n E x e c u t iv e p r o t o c o l r e g a r d i n g t h e a p p o i n t m e n t s o f D G ’s
a n d D e p u ty D G ’s ?
MR SIMONS:

Ye s .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

A n d w a s M in is te r C h a b a n e i n v o l v e d in

d e s i g n i n g t h e s e s o r t s o f p r o t o c o ls ?

Page 143 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
MR SIMONS:

I n f a c t w h e n th e M i n is te r j o i n e d th e M i n i s tr y, P u b lic

S e r v ic e a n d A d m in is tr a ti o n w e b r o u g h t in t o h is s p e e c h e s t h e f a c t th a t
w e w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o th e r e - in v e n ti n g t h e w a y w e w o r k a s P u b lic
S e r v a n ts a n d r e - i n v e n t in g t h e w a y P u b lic S e r v a n ts s h o u l d b e w o r k i n g
a n d p a r t o f h is p o s i ti o n w a s th a t w e a c t u a lly n e e d t o e n s u e – a n d t h a t
is w h y a t t h a t s t a g e t h e r e w a s a lr e a d y d r a f t d o c u m e n t a ti o n a b o u t i f y o u
a r e a p p l y i n g fo r a p o s t in t h e p u b lic s e r v i c e a t D e p u ty D i r e c t o r L e v e l ,
y o u s h o u l d a t l e a s t h a v e f o u r t o fiv e y e a r s e x p e r ie n c e a s a n A s s i s t a n t
D ir e c t o r.
10

I f y o u a r e a p p l y i n g f o r a D ir e c t o r in th e P u b li c S e r v ic e y o u

s h o u l d a t l e a s t h a v e f o u r t o f iv e y e a r s ’ e x p e r i e n c e a t th e l e v e l o f
D e p u ty D ir e c t o r a n d s o o n a n d t h e n o b v i o u s ly q u e s ti o n i n g , y o u k n o w
s a l a r i e s t h a t P u b l ic S e r v a n ts w e r e b e in g p a i d a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r t i m e ,
w h e t h e r t h e s tr u c t u r e o f th o s e p a y m e n t s w e r e c o r r e c t a n d h e w o u l d
o ft e n , y o u

know

s a y,

we

pay

people

to

deal

with

media

and

c o m m u n ic a ti o n s i n G o v e r n m e n t m o r e t h a n w h a t w e p a y a p o li c e m a n
w h o – a n d w o m a n w h o d a il y p u ts t h e ir l iv e s a t r is k t o p r o te c t u s a n d h e
q u e s t io n e d th a t , h e s a i d t h e r e w a s s o m e t h in g f u n d a m e n t a lly w r o n g w i t h
t h a t a n d t h a t is w h y h e w a s b e g i n n i n g t o l o o k a t h o w d o w e r e s tr u c tu r e
t h e e n tir e P u b l ic S e r v i c e s o th a t S o u th A f r ic a n s a c tu a lly g e t m a x i m u m
20

b e n e fi t f r o m t h e s e r v i c e s b e i n g r e n d e r e d a n d t h a t w e d o n ’ t h a v e t h is
q u e o p e r a ti o n .

S o y o u w o u ld f in d t h a t i n t h e r e , t h e r e w o u l d a ls o b e

y o u r S e n i o r M a n a g e m e n t S e r v i c e s h a n d - b o o k w h i c h w o u l d a l s o o u tli n e
t h e p r o c e s s f o r t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f D D G ’s , D G ’s e tc e t e r a a n d t h i s w o u l d
la r g e l y h a v e b e e n in f lu e n c e d b y t h a t d o c u m e n t .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Thank you.

I want to refer you to sub-

Page 144 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
p a r a g r a p h 7 .5 . s u b - p a r a g r a p h 7 A o n p a g e 7 8 b e c a u s e it is r e l e v a n t t o
t h is a s p e c t a n d t h e r e i t d e a ls w i th t h e s e l e c t io n c o m m i t t e e a n d r e q u ir e s
it s t a t e s , s u b 7 ,
“ A s e le c ti o n c o m m i t t e e c o n s ti t u t e d fo r t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f ,
a n d t h e n S u b A , a H e a d o f a N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t s h a ll b e
C h a ir e d b y t h e M i n is te r r e s p o n s i b le fo r t h e p o r t f o l i o i n w h ic h
t h e v a c a n c y e x is t s a n d i n c lu d e a t le a s t t w o o t h e r M i n is te r s
a n d a N a ti o n a l H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t ” ,
D o y o u k n o w w h e th e r M i n is t e r G ig a b a w a s p a r t o f t h e s e le c ti o n
10

c o m m i t t e e … [i n t e r v e n e s ] ?
CHAIRPERSON:

M s W e n tz e l , I’ m s o r r y I’ m n o t s o i n te r e s t e d in th a t ,

I’ m i n t e r e s te d in w h a t t h e r e q u ir e m e n t s w e r e t h a t w e r e l a i d d o w n , w h ic h
o n e s d i d M r Tw e t w e n o t h a v e , n o t a b o u t w h a t o t h e r p r o c e d u r e s w e r e
f o ll o w e d o r n o t f o ll o w e d .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s C h a ir, y o u w i ll s e e i n p a r a g r a p h 7 . 8 o n

p a g e 8 1 i t r e f e r s t o t h e s u b m i s s i o n o f a C a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h is
a r e q u ir e m e n t a n d th e n I w a n t t o r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 111 a n d y o u ’ ll s e e
t h a t t h i s i s a d r a ft r e c o m m e n d – m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h h a s g o t p l a c e f o r
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e t o s i g n o n p a g e 11 8 a n d it ’s a C a b i n e t M e m o r a n d a
20

e i g h t o f 2 0 1 5 o f t h e 4 t h o f M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . D i d M in is t e r C h a b a n e s i g n t h i s ?
MR SIMONS:

No that was not signed.

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And if I can show you the document on page

120 it says,
“c o m m e n t s fo r t h e M in is t e r ’s a t t e n t io n , a p p o i n t m e n ts f iv e - y e a r
c o n tr a c t a p p o i n t m e n t, D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a ir s , p o s t a p p li e d fo r,

Page 145 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
D e p a r t m e n t D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l C o m m u n ic a ti o n s S e r v ic e s a n d t h e n a m e o f
the

c a n d i d a te

Mr

M

Tw e ts e .

If

you

–

who

prepared

t h is

d o c u m e n ts … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms W e n tz e l th a t ’s t a k i n g t o o lo n g .

Does the

d o c u m e n t t e ll m e w h a t th e r e q u i r e m e n ts f o r t h e p o s i ti o n w e r e , w h ic h
r e q u ir e m e n t M r Tw e ts e d i d n ’ t m e e t , th a t ’s a l l I n e e d , n o t h i n g e ls e , l e t ’s
go there?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o p a g e 1 2 1

p a r a g r a p h s ix , a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h 6 .1 , f ir s tl y w h o s e c o m m e n ts
10

were these?
MR SIMONS:

T h e s e w e r e o b v i o u s l y s o u r c e d fr o m t h e l e g a l a n d

r e l e v a n t s e c ti o n s w i th i n D P S A .
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

And it says,

“r e le v a n c e o f j o b s p e c i f ic a ti o n s , q u a li f ic a ti o n v e r s u s t h e p o s t
a s a d v e r t is e d .

T h e p o s t w a s a d v e r t is e d w i t h a t h r e e - y e a r

d e g r e e i n P u b l ic R e la t io n s M a n a g e m e n t a n d / o r a G r a d e 1 2
c e r t if ic a te e d u c a t io n a l r e q u ir e m e n t . A p o s t g r a d u a t e d e g r e e in
t h e r e l e v a n t f i e l d w o u l d b e a n a d v a n t a g e . A c c o r d i n g t o th e

jo b

d e s c r ip t io n a B D e g r e e in P u b lic R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e m e n t
20

and

C o m m u n i c a t io n S e r v ic e s o r a n N Q F l e v e l 6

e q u iv a l e n t

r e q u ir e d w h i ls t a p o s t g r a d u a t e D e g r e e in t h e

r e l e v a n t fi e ld w o u l d

b e a n a d d e d a d v a n ta g e . I t s h o u ld b e

is

noted that the advert was

s p e c i f ic to a th r e e - y e a r D e g r e e i n P u b l ic R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e m e n t a n d / o r
a G r a d e 1 2 C e r ti fi c a t e

e d u c a ti o n a l

recommended candidate is

in

r e q u ir e m e n t
possession

Page 146 of 155

of

and
a

B a c h e lo r

the
of

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
A d m i n i s t r a t io n D e g r e e . B a s e d
does not seem to meet

o n th is th e r e c o m m e n d e d c a n d i d a te

t h e e d u c a t io n a l r e q u ir e m e n ts o f th e p o s t a s

a d v e r t is e d , a

c o p y o f th e jo b e v a lu a ti o n r e p o r t w h i c h i n fo r m e d t h e

a d v e r t is

n o t a v a i le d ” ,
C a n y o u g iv e a n y c o m m e n t s o n th a t ?

MR SIMONS:

T h a t o b v i o u s l y w o u l d h a v e b e e n h a n d e d to t h e M i n is t e r

a s w e ll , fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t ’s s i d e a n d i t s h o u ld h a v e i n fl u e n c e d h i s
d e c is i o n t o r a th e r d o a t h o r o u g h i n v e s ti g a t io n . S o w h a t y o u f i n d h e r e is
t h e r e q u e s t fr o m D P S A f o r t h e p r o v is io n o f m o r e d e ta il e d i n f o r m a t i o n .
10

S o th e y d o r e s p o n d v i a a n e m a i l b u t th a t is a ll a f te r t h e a c t u a l f a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l y o u m a y o r m a y n o t b e a b l e t o e n li g h te n m e o n
t h is p a r a g r a p h b e c a u s e i t’s b e e n q u i t e s o m e ti m e s i n c e t h e s e e v e n ts
b u t t h i s r e q u i r e m e n t h e r e f o r a th r e e - y e a r D e g r e e i n P u b l ic R e l a ti o n s
M a n a g e m e n t a n d /o r a G r a d e 1 2 C e r ti f ic a t e e d u c a ti o n a l r e q u ir e m e n t a n d
recommended – how do you say you want a candidate to have a Degree
a n d / o r a G r a d e 1 2 C e r ti f ic a t e . W h a t d o e s t h a t m e a n , s o w h a t d o e s th is
r e q u ir e m e n t m e a n ?
MR SIMONS:

I n f a c t , t h a t i s w h y I s a id e a r l i e r C h a i r p e r s o n th a t w i t h i n

t h e P u b l ic S e c t o r a s w e ll a s i n t h e P r iv a t e S e c to r it ’s v e r y e a s y t o tr y
20

a n d g e t a p e r s o n a p p o in t e d t h a t y o u h a v e a l r e a d y i d e n ti f ie d a n d p r i o r
t o - s o w h a t y o u w il l d o is , y o u w il l c r a f t y o u r a d v e r t a r o u n d t h e k i n d o f
q u a li fi c a t io n s t h a t y o u th i n k th e c a n d id a t e w o u ld h a v e . N o w p a r t o f t h e
c o n c e r n s , i f y o u r e a d t h r o u g h t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n i n i t ’s e n ti r e ty is th e
c o m p e te n c y f o r e x a m p le a n d y o u ’ v e b e e n in G o v e r n m e n t f o r t w o y e a r s ,
y o u s t a r te d a t C h ie f D ir e c to r l e v e l a n d n o w a l l o f a s u d d e n w e a r e

Page 147 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
a p p o i n ti n g y o u a t D D G l e v e l . S o t h o s e w e r e s o m e o f t h e c o n c e r n s t h a t
w e r e r a is e d w i t h th e M in is t e r th e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t w h a t i t d o e s m e a n i f I u n d e r s t a n d t h is

r e q u ir e m e n t c o r r e c t ly, is t h a t , i f y o u h a d t h e th r e e - y e a r D e g r e e i n
P u b l ic R e l a ti o n s M a n a g e m e n t o r y o u ju s t h a d a G r a d e 1 2 C e r t if ic a te
y o u w o u l d b e fi n e .
MR SIMONS:

Yo u w o u ld b e – y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e q u e s ti o n is , w e ll o n e , w h y d o y o u w a n t t h a t

p a r t ic u l a r d e g r e e i f G r a d e 1 2 is g o o d e n o u g h ?
10

MR SIMONS:

T h a t ’s i t.

CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e th e y a r e n o t s a y in g th a t D e g r e e w o u l d b e

a n a d v a n t a g e o r i s r e c o m m e n d e d , i t s e e m s to b e p u t a s a r e q u ir e m e n t .
MR SIMONS:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t if y o u j u s t h a v e G r a d e 1 2 , a G r a d e 1 2

C e r t i fi c a t e i s g o o d e n o u g h , s o it m a y, th e r e fo r e w e l l b e th a t C a b in e t ’s
d e c is i o n b e th a t M r Tw e ts e b e a p p o i n te d e v e n i f h e d id n ’ t h a v e th a t
D e g r e e i n P u b lic – t h r e e - y e a r D e g r e e in P u b l ic R e la t io n s M a n a g e m e n t
w a s b a s e d o n th e fa c t t h a t t h e a d v e r t s a i d a m a tr i c is g o o d e n o u g h .
MR SIMONS:
20

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y l e t ’s w r a p u p .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

C h a ir if I c a n ju s t p o i n t o n e fu r t h e r th i n g o u t

t o y o u i f y o u d o n ’ t m i n d a n d – b e c a u s e I t h in k i t m i g h t b e h e l p f u l . C o u l d
y o u tu r n t o t h e d o c u m e n t o n p a g e 1 2 4 , it ’s a n e m a i l d a t e d t h e 3 r d o f
M a r c h 2 0 1 5 w h i c h p u r p o r ts to d e a l w i t h t h e c o m m e n t s a n d q u e r i e s
r a i s e d a n d w i t h r e g a r d t o t h e q u a li fi c a t i o n s , C h a ir i f y o u c a n h a v e

Page 148 of 155

14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
r e g a r d t o p a r a g r a p h 6 . 1 … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

I’m sorry which page do you want me to look at?

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : I t ’s p a g e 1 2 4 , s o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 124.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s a n d in th e m id d l e o f t h e e m a i l a t t h e

s e c o n d h a l f o f t h e p a g e y o u w il l s e e i t s a y s , p a r a 6 .1 w h ic h i s w h e r e
t h is i s s u e o f h i s q u a li f ic a t i o n s h a d b e e n r a is e d a n d C h a ir th e a n s w e r i s
n o t , h e h a d a C e r t i fi c a t e , t h i s is th e a n s w e r t h a t h a d – h a d a m a t r ic
C e r t i fi c a t e , t h e a n s w e r th a t is g i v e n i s ,
10

“the

post was

a d v e r t is e d

w i th

a

three-year

p o s t m a tr ic

q u a li fi c a t io n o f G r a d e 1 2 , m a tr ic w i t h r e l e v a n t q u a li f ic a t i o n s .
M r Ts w e te is i n p o s s e s s i o n o f a t h r e e - y e a r p o s t m a tr i c
q u a li fi c a t io n a s w e ll a s m a tr ic w i th r e le v a n t q u a l i fic a ti o n s ” ,
So …[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s i t ’s n o t w o r t h – a t le a s t o n w h a t I h a v e b e e n t o

it ’s n o t w o r t h s p e n d i n g m o r e ti m e o n i t , j a o k a y is t h e r e a n y t h i n g e l s e
you want to cover?
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s , fi n a l ly C h a ir i f I c a n j u s t d e a l w i th th e

la s t p a r t o f h i s e v i d e n c e , I d o n ’t t h i n k i t w i ll b e m o r e t h a n fi v e m i n u t e s ,
20

c o u l d y o u j u s t t e l l th e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r y o u p o s t e d s o m e t h i n g
o n F a c e b o o k in a n d a r o u n d J u n e 2 0 1 5 d e a l t w i t h a t p a r a g r a p h 5 6 o f
y o u r a ff i d a v i t ?
MR SIMONS:

C h a ir p e r s o n a s in d ic te d t o y o u e a r l i e r I b e li e v e d i n –

y o u k n o w o u r o r g a n is a ti o n a l l o w e d p e o p l e t o e x p r e s s t h e ir v i e w s a n d
o p i n i o n s i t w a s g u a r a n te e d a n d p r o t e c t e d i n o u r c o n s t it u ti o n e tc e t e r a

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s o I ’d b e e n v e r y v o c a l a g a i n s t w h a t I t h o u g h t w a s – t h a t t h e A N C , t h e
c o u n tr y h a s b e e n t a k e n in th e w r o n g d ir e c t io n a n d t h a t t h e le a d e r s o f
t h e t h e n P r e s i d e n t Z u m a . S o I u s u a lly e x p r e s s e d m y v ie w s v e r y o p e n l y
a n d i n a d is c u s s i o n w i t h s o m e o f th e S e n io r P u b l ic S e r v a n ts a n d a ls o
c o m r a d e s b a s e d i n t h e E a s t e r n C a p e a n d G a u t e n g e tc e te r a I a c tu a l ly
a s k e d t h e q u e s t i o n , w h y it w a s o u r th e n P r e s id e n t w a s a t th e c e n tr e o f
m o s t o f th e c o r r u p t i o n , s c a n d a ls t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g i n o u r c o u n tr y
a n d b e i n g r e p o r te d i n t h e m e d ia a n d t h e n s o m e o n e w h o p a r ti c i p a t e d i n
t h a t d is c u s s i o n t o o k i t t o t h e t h e n Ac t in g M i n is t e r o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d
10

A d m i n i s t r a t io n , N a th i M t h e t h w a , h e c a ll e d m e h e w a s v e r y, v e r y u p s e t
a n d a n g r y t h a t I h a d s a id t h is in a g r o u p w i t h f e l lo w A N C m e m b e r s a n d
s o o n . Q u e s t io n e d m e a n d t h a t is w h e r e I w a s t h e n – th e n e x t d a y, I
w a s b a s ic a l ly to l d , lo o k I d o n ’ t w a n t y o u i n t h e Mi n is tr y.

So I was

m o v e d s i d e w a y s , I s a t o n a h a lf e m p ty f lo o r i n a p a r tic u la r c o r n e r t h e r e
in D P S A f o r a l m o s t n i n e m o n th s , c l o s e t o te n m o n th s w h e n I w a s –
e v e n t u a l ly w h e n M in is t e r R a m a tl h o d i r e - j o i n e d – n o t r e - j o in e d , j o in e d
D P S A h e t h e n s a i d , n o y o u c a n ’ t h a v e s o m e o n e s i t ti n g a n d d o i n g
n o t h i n g a n d e a r n in g a s a la r y w h ic h I h a d b e e n r a is in g w i t h m y D G
c o n s i s te n tl y o n a m o n t h l y b a s is , t h e n l o o k I’ m b e i n g p a i d , I’ m n o t b e i n g
20

used.

Yo u e i t h e r c h a r g e m e o r y o u d o n ’ t c h a r g e m e e t c e t e r a .

There

w a s a c h a r g e s h e e t i t w a s n e v e r p r e s e n t e d t o m e , i t h a d a b o u t fi f t e e n
c h a r g e s o n i t, t h e A fr ic a n N a t i o n a l C o n g r e s s w a s r a is in g e v e r y c h a r g e
t h a t w a s b e in g r a i s e d a g a i n s t m e b u t a t t h e e n d I w a s r e - a s s ig n e d t o
h e a d u p th e C h ie f D ir e c t o r a te f o r K n o w l e d g e M a n a g e m e n t w i t h i n th e
P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d w e p r o d u c e d a K n o w l e d g e M a n a g e m e n t fr a m e w o r k

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f o r t h e e n ti r e P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d th a t i s n o w f o r m a ll y b e e n e n d o r s e d b u t
I mean and the issue was just that even though the senior management
g u i d e li n e s a l lo w s fo r a n y P u b li c S e r v a n t t o p a r t ic ip a t e i n t h e a ff a i r s i n
p o li t ic a l p a r t i e s – d i s c u s s io n s o f p o l i ti c a l p a r ti e s i n y o u r p r iv a t e
c a p a c i ty in y o u r p r i v a t e ti m e p e o p le a l w a y s t u r n a r o u n d a n d s a y, y o u
k n o w, t h e r e ’s p e r h a p s – w e w o u ld b e w is e r to s a y t h e r e ’s n o – i f y o u
a r e a P u b l ic S e r v a n t t h e r e ’s n o p r iv a t e t i m e , n o p r iv a te c a p a c i t y b u t
t h a t w a s p r o te c te d w i t h i n t h e S e n i o r M a n a g e m e n t S e r v ic e h a n d b o o k
a n d I th in k t h a t, t o a l a r g e e x t e n t , w a s m y m a in d e f e n c e , I a c t u a ll y h a d
10

t o a p p o i n t a l a w y e r a s w e ll w h o a ls o a s k e d D P S A c o n s is t e n t ly, w h e n i s
m y c l ie n t b e i n g c h a r g e d a n d e v e n tu a l ly a f te r a y e a r a n d a h a lf , tw o y e a r p e r io d w e s a id t h a t y o u n o l o n g e r h a v e t h e le g a l a u t h o r i ty t o
c h a r g e m e b e c a u s e y o u s h o u l d h a v e d o n e th a t a l m o s t t w o y e a r s a g o .
So

t h a t ’s w h a t h a p p e n s w i t h i n t h e P u b lic S e r v ic e , I m e a n , o n e o f t h e

c h a r g e s w a s t h a t m y a c t i o n s w e r e tr e a s o n o u s a n d I a s k e d f o r a
d e f in i ti o n o f tr e a s o n b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t th i n k m y a c ti o n s w e r e a n y w h e r e
c lo s e t o b e i n g tr e a s o n o u s b u t t h a t c u r r e n tly s ti ll is w h a t y o u ’ ll f i n d
b e c a u s e m o s t o f t h e p e o p l e w h o w o u l d t h r e a t e n y o u th e n w e r e w i t h
t h e s e t r e a s o n o u s a c t i o n s o r d i s c i p l i n a r y a c ti o n , I m e a n , I e v e n t u a ll y l e f t
20

t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e b u t y o u s til l h a v e s o m e o f th e i n d iv id u a l s t h e r e a n d
it ’s t h e ir r ig h t to s e r v e .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h is d is c u s s i o n w h i c h p u t y o u i n t o tr o u b le , w a s

t h is a d i s c u s s i o n th a t y o u w e r e h a v i n g w i t h a g r o u p o f fr ie n d s a n d /o r
c o l l e a g u e s o r c o m r a d e s w i t h i n t h e A N C d u r in g y o u r o w n t i m e .
MR SIMONS:

O n a S u n d a y a f te r n o o n .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:

On a Sunday afternoon and do you know whether

m a y b e a l m o s t e v e r y b o d y w a s p a r tic ip a ti n g i n th e d is c u s s i o n w a s a l s o a
member of the ANC?
MR SIMONS:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR SIMONS:

Th a t w a s s o ?

That was so.

CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t w a s l ik e – w a s i t li k e d i s c u s s in g a n i s s u e o f

in t e r e s t t o m e m b e r s o f th e A N C ?
MR SIMONS:
10

W e w e r e d e a li n g w i t h th e is s u e a r o u n d c o r r u p ti o n a n d

w e f e l t th e n th a t t h e A N C h a d p a s s e d – a t a l m o s t e v e r y N a t i o n a l
C o n f e r e n c e t h a t t h e A N C r e s o l u t i o n s a r e a d o p te d t h a t s a y s it is t h e
r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f e a c h a n d e v e r y A N C m e m b e r, n o m a t te r w h e r e y o u fi n d
y o u r s e l f , i n s o c ie t y t o c o m b a t , e x p o s e … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SIMONS:
t h is d i s c u s s io n .

To f i g h t c o r r u p ti o n .
A n d fi g h t c o r r u p ti o n a n d o n t h a t b a s is w e w e r e h a v i n g
S o m e o n e s c r e e n g r a b b e d it a n d s e n t i t t o M in is t e r

M t h e th w a w h o w a s o b v io u s ly v e r y, v e r y a n g r y t h a t I h a d m a d e th a t
s t a te m e n t a n d t h a t I w a s r e g a r d e d a s a S e n i o r m e m b e r i n h is M in is tr y
t h a t h e w a s th e Ac t in g M i n is t e r o f a n d s o o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t is t h e p o s i t io n t h a t y o u w e r e e x p r e s s i n g y o u r

b o n e fi d e v ie w s a b o u t s o m e t h i n g o f c o n c e r n t o y o u a s a m e m b e r o f t h e
A N C a n d to y o u a s a c i t iz e n t o fr i e n d s a n d c o m r a d e s w h o y o u w e r e
u s e d t o c o n v e r s i n g w i th o n is s u e s ?
MR SIMONS:

J a m o s t o f t h e p a r t ic i p a n ts i n t h e g r o u p w e r e , i n fa c t,

S e n i o r M a n a g e r s w it h in t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e .

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
CHAIRPERSON:
MR SIMONS:

Ye s , y e s .
B u t m o s t o f t h e m w e r e a ls o v e r y a c t iv e w i th in t h e A N C

a n d i t ju s t h a p p e n e d t h a t o n e o f th o s e p e o p le w e r e c l o s e r to M i n i s t e r
M t h e th w a a n d b e c a u s e y o u a r e d i s c u s s in g i t i n a F a c e b o o k c h a t y o u
e x p e c t i t t o b e a p u b l ic – i t ’s n o t a p r i v a t e c lo s e d d i s c u s s io n a n d s o
t h a t is h o w t h e t h r e a t o f d is c i p l in a r y a c t io n th e n a r o s e w i t h i n t h e P u b lic
S e c t o r b u t I’ m g l a d t o s a y t h a t n o c h a r g e s w e r e fo r m a l ly p u t to m e a t
a n y s ta g e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

B u t d i d y o u s a y t h a t y o u w e r e s to p p e d fr o m d o i n g

y o u r n o r m a l w o r k a s a r e s u lt o f t h i s a n d m a d e to s t a y i n s o m e o ff ic e f o r
w h a t , n in e m o n th s o r s o d o i n g n o t h i n g b u t b e in g p a id , is t h a t w h a t y o u
said?
MR SIMONS:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e r e y o u o n s u s p e n s i o n o r w e r e y o u n o t o n

suspension?
MR SIMONS:

I h a v e a s k e d m y D G t h e n w h e t h e r I w a s f o r m a l ly

s u s p e n d e d , I w a s n e v e r e v e r s u s p e n d e d i n t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e a n d t h e n
I a s k e d f o r c h a r g e s to b e fo r m a l ly p u t t o m e a n d th o s e c h a r g e s w e r e
n e v e r f o r m a l ly p u t t o m e u n t il s o m e o n e i n D P S A b r o u g h t m e a c h a r g e
20

s h e e t w h ic h is a ls o p a r t o f t h e a ffi d a v i t t h a t s a y s th a t t h e s e a r e t h e
c h a r g e s th a t a r e b e in g p r e p a r e d a g a i n s t y o u s o y o u n e e d to p r e p a r e
y o u r s e l f fo r i t. T h e l a w y e r t h e n r e q u e s t e d t h a t th e c h a r g e s h e e t b e
f o r m a l is e d a n d th a t I b e h a n d e d t h a t f o r m a l ly a n d f o r a l m o s t t w o y e a r s
of asking no charges were then brought forward.
CHAIRPERSON:

Was it for about two years or about a year?

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14 JANUARY 2020 – DAY 198
MR SIMONS:

N o r e m e m b e r I t h in k i t w a s fr o m a b o u t 2 0 1 5 u n ti l

M i n is t e r R a m a tl h o d i j o i n e d t h e M i n i s t r y a s f o r m a l M i n i s t e r o f P u b li c
S e r v ic e a n d A d m in is tr a ti o n w h e n I w a s g i v e n a n o t h e r a l t e r n a ti v e p o s t
w i t h i n D P S A a n d th e n I s t a y e d t h e r e fo r a b o u t a y e a r b e f o r e n o r m a ll y
r e s ig n in g fr o m t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t is y o u r r e c o l l e c t io n t h a t th e ti m e y o u s p e n t

s i tt i n g i n a n o ffi c e a n d n o t d o in g a n y t h i n g b u t g e t ti n g p a id , is y o u r
r e c o l l e c ti o n t h a t , t h a t w a s a b o u t a y e a r ?
MR SIMONS:
10

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr i g h t , t h a n k y o u .

ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:

Ye s a n d C h a ir t h e c h a r g e s h e e t r e fe r r e d t o

is a t p a g e 4 6 I d o n ’ t t h in k w e n e e d t o g o th e r e a n d I h a v e n o fu r t h e r
q u e s t io n s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , n o t h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r S i m o n s

f o r c o mi n g t o s h a r e w h a t y o u k n o w w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n w e a p p r e c ia t e
it , th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , i f w e h a v e n e e d f o r y o u to c o m e b a c k w e ’l l a s k
y o u a g a i n b u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h y o u a r e e x c u s e d .
MR SIMONS:

Thank you.

A D V S U S A N W E N T Z E L : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e g o i n g t o a d jo u r n n o w, t o m o r r o w w e a r e g o i n g

t o s t a r t a t h a l f p a s t t e n n o t 1 0 o ’c l o c k s o w e ’l l – a n d t h e n t o m o r r o w a n d
t h e d a y s a f t e r w e ’l l – I’ ll b e h e a r in g e v id e n c e r e l a ti n g to L a w
Enforcement Agencies.
ADV SUSAN WENTZEL:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

We adjourn.

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I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 5 J A N U A R Y 2 0 2 0

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