C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

12 JUNE 2019

D AY 111

20

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
PROCEEDINGS ON 12 JUNE 2019
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

P a r t o f t h e w o r k s tr e a m s th a t

h a v e b e e n p r e s e n ti n g e v i d e n c e b e f o r e y o u . To m o r r o w th e a v i a t i o n w o r k
s tr e a m w i ll b e g i n i ts w o r k fo r t h e n e x t f e w w e e k s .

We obtained the

s t a te m e n t f in a lly i n it s s ig n e d fo r m , a t t e s t e d f o r m l a s t n i g h t a n d a t – a s
a t y e s te r d a y i t w a s n o t c le a r w h o w o u ld b e i m p l ic a te d b u t R u le 3 . 3
N o t ic e s w i ll b e is s u e d a t t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e e v i d e n c e . C a n I h a n d u p
Exhibit EE1?
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W e l l y e s y o u m a y.

N o r ma ll y R u l e 3 .3 N o ti c e s a r e

is s u e d b e fo r e i f y o u p r o p o s e t o h a v e t h e m i s s u e d a f t e r w e s h o u ld
e x p l a i n to t h e p u b li c w h y ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

C h a ir t h e d i r e c t i o n fr o m

t h e C h a ir w a s th a t a s e r i e s o f w i t n e s s e s b e c a ll e d .

Those witnesses

f a ll o u ts i d e th e n o r m a l p l a n n in g o f t h e le g a l t e a m a n d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n
team.

I t w a s o n ly la t e l a s t w e e k t h a t it w a s p la n n e d t h e r e f o r e f o r M r

N x a s a n a in t h e a b s e n c e o f o th e r w i t n e s s e s w h o w e r e u n a v a il a b l e t o
c o m e t o d a y.

T h e ti m e w a s s e t a s i d e f o r c o n s u l t a t i o n o n M o n d a y t h e

in v e s t i g a t o r s h a v i n g d o n e q u it e s o m e p r e p a r a ti o n o v e r t h e w e e k e n d .
M r N x a s a n a w a s n o t a v a i la b le o n M o n d a y a n d t h e r e fo r e h a d t o c o m e
20

fr o m D u r b a n t o J o h a n n e s b u r g t o d a y – y e s t e r d a y w h e n h is s t a t e m e n t
a n d e v id e n c e w a s p r e p a r e d i n c o n s u l t a ti o n w i th t h e l e g a l t e a m m y s e l f .
I t w a s n o t c l e a r u n t il y e s te r d a y e v e n i n g w h e n t h e s t a te m e n t w a s f in a l ly
a tt e s t e d to w h o w o u l d b e i m p l ic a te d a n d t o w h a t e x te n t .

It w a s n o t

p o s s i b le t o o b ta i n fr o m t h e v a r i o u s j u d g m e n ts a n d c o u r t r e c o r d s r e a d
o v e r th e w e e k e n d w it h a n y c e r ta i n t y w h o s h o u l d b e i m p li c a t e d a n d f o r

Page 2 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
t h a t r e a s o n a n d b e c a u s e t h is w it n e s s f a l ls in t o a d i ff e r e n t c a t e g o r y f r o m
t h o s e th a t a r e p l a n n e d fr o m t h e o u ts e t w e w o u ld a s k y o u r l e a v e t o
is s u e 3 . 3 ’s a f t e r t h e c o n c l u s io n o f t h e e v i d e n c e t o d a y ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l d o e s h is e v i d e n c e n o t r e a lly r e l a t e t o m a t te r s

t h a t h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n d e a l t w i t h i n c o u r ts a n d ju d g m e n t - j u d g m e n ts o f
t h e h i g h c o u r t a n d t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t a n d …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o t in …
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e r e t h o s e w h o m a y b e i m p l ic a t e d h a v e b e e n

a w a r e o f th o s e – o f w h a t h e s a y s a b o u t h i s t e n u r e a t t h e N PA a n d t h e y
10

have had a chance to respond to those. Does it cover anything new?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s it d o e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n h is s t a te m e n t ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e s ta t e m e n t d o e s C h a ir. I t –
t h e f o c u s is n o t e n t ir e ly o n t h e li t ig a ti o n t h a t h a s g o n e t h r o u g h t h e
c o u r ts c o n c e r n i n g th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s u n d e r w h ic h t h e c o n tr a c t o f Mr
Nxasana came to an end and what the courts have said about it and
t h e r e a r e v a r i o u s o t h e r a p p l ic a t i o n s t h a t h a v e c o m e b e f o r e c o u r t
in c l u d i n g t h e c o n s t i tu t io n a l c o u r t i n r e l a ti o n t o th e t e r m i n a t io n o f t h e ir
s e r v ic e s . Th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr N x a s a n a d e a ls w i t h a m u c h b r o a d e r s e t

20

o f is s u e s a n d it w a s o n ly o n f u l l e x a m i n a ti o n o f t h o s e is s u e s th a t th e
e x t e n t a n d t h e b a s i s u p o n w h ic h i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s a r e i n d e e d
i m p l ic a t e d c a n p r o p e r ly b e d e a l t w i t h .

S o t h e r e a r e d i ff e r e n t is s u e s .

T h e v a r i o u s c o u r t c a s e s a r e a m a t t e r o f r e c o r d a n d I w il l i n d u e c o u r s e
a s k l e a v e t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d p u b l ic l y e x c e r p ts fr o m t h e j u d g m e n t o f t h e
c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t i n r e la t io n to th e m a t te r t h a t fi n a ll y c a m e b e f o r e

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
c o u r t w h e r e t h e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l c o u r t ’s a t ti t u d e t o th e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f
t h e N PA a n d m a t t e r s r e la t e d t o th e in d e p e n d e n c e a r e s e t o u t . B u t a p a r t
fr o m th a t th o s e p a r t ic u l a r i s s u e s t h a t le d t o t h a t li t ig a ti o n i n t h e c o u r ts
a r e n o t c e n t r a l to t h i s s ta t e m e n t.

H e d e a ls w i t h o t h e r m a t te r s i n

a d d it i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l a s y o u s a y h e w a s a m o n g a n u m b e r o f w i tn e s s e s
t h a t I s a id s h o u l d b e c a ll e d . O th e r w i tn e s s e s w e r e w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e
b e e n i m p l ic a te d b y c e r t a i n w i tn e s s e s a n d o th e r w i t n e s s e s w e r e n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly i m p li c a t e d b u t w o u l d n e e d t o c o m e b e f o r e t h e c o m m i s s i o n
10

t o g iv e t h e i r v e r s i o n w h ic h c o u l d c o r r o b o r a t e o r n o t c o r r o b o r a t e
p r e v i o u s w it n e s s e s a n d – a n d h e – h e fa ll s u n d e r L a w E n f o r c e m e n t b u t
h e – I h a d c o n s i d e r e d th a t h e – h is e v id e n c e – h e n e e d s t o g iv e
e v i d e n c e . B u t I c o n c e d e d t h a t w h a t w a s i m p o r t a n t r e la t e s t o i n r e g a r d
t o h is e v id e n c e – r e l a te t o h i s te n u r e a t th e N PA .

C e r t a in m a t t e r s

w h ic h h a v e b e e n i n th e p u b l ic d o m a i n a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d t h o s e
a r e t h e m a t te r s I h a d i n m i n d a n d p a r t ic u l a r ly h o w h e l e f t t h e N PA .
N o w t h a t h a s b e e n d e a lt w i th e x t e n s i v e ly i n a ff i d a v i ts t h a t w e r e fi le d b y
h i m a n d b y t h e f o r m e r p r e s id e n t a n d o th e r p e r s o n s i n t h e h i g h c o u r t
a n d i n th e m a t t e r t h a t c u l m i n a t e d in t h e c o n s ti t u t i o n a l c o u r t . I t h i n k i t
20

w a s b r o u g h t b y C o r r u p ti o n W a t c h a n d m a y b e o th e r p a r t ie s .

But there

m a y b e o t h e r m a t t e r s t h a t t h e le g a l te a m y o u k n o w h a d y o u k n o w a l s o
t h o u g h t o f o n c e h e w a s to b e c a ll e d .

S o I w o u l d li k e t h e f u l l s e t o f

a ffi d a v i ts i n t h e C o r r u p ti o n W a tc h m a t t e r to b e p la c e d b e f o r e m e a s
s o o n a s p o s s i b l e t o g iv e m e a f u l l p ic t u r e o f th e s i tu a ti o n . S o o b v i o u s ly
y o u c a n – y o u c a n c o v e r w h a t e v e r th e le g a l t e a m o r y o u t h i n k s h o u l d b e

Page 4 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
– s h o u l d b e c o v e r e d in r e l a ti o n t o h is e v i d e n c e b u t i n p a r tic u la r ly I w a s
in t e r e s te d i n h is te n u r e a t th e N PA . S o m e o f th e m a tt e r s th a t m a y b e
i m p o r t a n t f o r t h e c o m m i s s i o n in th e l ig h t o f h is t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e t h e r e
h a v e b e e n a ll k i n d s o f a ll e g a ti o n s a n d e v i d e n c e a b o u t t h e N PA a n d t h e n
o f c o u r s e t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s u n d e r w h ic h h e v a c a t e d o ff ic e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I t h o u g h t I w o u ld j u s t m a k e c le a r w h a t I h a d i n

m i n d b u t fr o m th e l e g a l te a m ’s p o i n t o f v i e w y o u – y o u a r e a t l a r g e to
c o v e r m u c h m o r e th a n th a t i f y o u b e li e v e h e h a s g o t m o r e i n – m o r e
10

e v i d e n c e t h a t r e la t e s t o m a t t e r s f a l li n g u n d e r o u r t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h e i n v e s ti g a to r s h a v e d o n e a n
enormous amount of work.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n t h e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

F r o m t h e d a y i n w h ic h i t w a s

d e c i d e d t h a t M r N x a s a n a s h o u l d b e r e q u e s t e d t o g iv e e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

T h e d o c u m e n ts t o w h ic h y o u

h a v e r e f e r r e d p a r tic u la r ly t h e c o u r t d o c u m e n t s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : H a v e b e e n c o ll a te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e d o h a v e t h e m h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a r e a b l e to p u t th e m b e f o r e
you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

It was however necessary to

le a v e t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n t o o n e s i d e a n d c o n c e n tr a te o n t h e a ll e g a t io n s
r e l e v a n t b o th i n t h e c o u r t a p p li c a t io n s a n d o t h e r m a t t e r s r e le v a n t a s
t h e e v id e n c e o f th e c o m m i s s io n h a s b e e n p u t b e f o r e y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n o r d e r t o g e t t h e d e t a il .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

O f e x a c tly w h a t a l le g a ti o n s h e

makes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w h o s h o u ld b e
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : S e r v e d w i t h n o tic e s i n r e g a r d t o
t h e d e t a i l th a t y o u w i ll h e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t i s f i n e . T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

O f p a r t ic u l a r c o n c e r n to t h e

le g a l te a m a r e th e q u e s t io n s a s to t h e in d e p e n d e n c e a n d e ff e c t iv e n e s s
o f th e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty a n d t h e q u e s ti o n w i ll b e r a is e d a s
t o w h a t e x te n t i f a n y t h e r e h a s b e e n p o li ti c a l i n t e r fe r e n c e i n s e n i o r
a p p o i n t m e n ts i n t h e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty a n d t h e e ff e c t t h is
h a s h a d o n th e e ff ic a c y o f th e o r g a n i s a ti o n a n d t h is is a m a t te r
a d d r e s s e d p e r t in e n tly b y J u s t ic e M a d l a n g a i n t h e c o n s t i tu t io n a l c o u r t

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
ju d g m e n t a n d I w il l a s k l e a v e to p u t e x c e r p ts o n r e c o r d i n d u e c o u r s e a t
t h e c o n c lu s i o n o f th e e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s w e ll I t h i n k y o u s h o u l d p u t i n t h e w h o le j u d g m e n t
a n d d r a w p a r tic u l a r a t te n ti o n t o p a r t ic u l a r
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

P a r ts o f t h e j u d g m e n t t h a t y o u th i n k a r e p a r tic u la r ly

i m p o r t a n t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t j u d g m e n t i s i n y o u r b u n d l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A f t e r t h e d i v i d e r a t p a g e 8 5 a n d
f o ll o w i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t i s a v e r y i n s tr u c t iv e j u d g m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n r e g a r d t o th e i s s u e s th a t th e
c o m m i s s io n i s d e a li n g w i th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e . I n d e e d o f c o u r s e t h e m a in p o i n t
o f M r N x a s a n a ’s e v id e n c e h a s to b e a b o u t t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e N PA
a n d w h e t h e r t h e r e h a s b e e n i n te r f e r e n c e w i t h i t a n d b y w h o m a n d i n

20

w h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s

would

t h a t i n te r f e r e n c e

be

j u s ti f ie d ?

Is

it

p e r m is s ib l e , i s it n o t p e r m is s i b l e ? S o m o r e t h a n a n y t h i n g t h a t is – t h a t
is t h e m o s t i m p o r t a n t t h i n g e v e r y t h i n g e l s e is a b o u t t h a t . Yo u k n o w a ll
t h e e v id e n c e h a s t o r e v o lv e a r o u n d t h a t w h e th e r …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e w a s in t e r f e r e n c e a n d i f s o w h a t fo r m i t t o o k a n d

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
u n d e r w h a t c i r c u ms t a n c e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . A n d n o t o n ly M r N x a s a n a
b u t o th e r w i t n e s s e s w i ll d e a l w it h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th o s e q u e s t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e ir a n s w e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n d u e c o u r s e .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir b u n d le E E 1 is o u t o f

s e q u e n c e b e c a u s e h e b u n d le s f o r t h e a v i a t io n tr a n c h e o f e v i d e n c e h a v e
a lr e a d y b e e n p r e p a r e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye . s
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A s b u n d l e D D .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o th is is a li t t le o u t o f

s e q u e n c e b u t I t h i n k t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s l e ft u s w i th n o c h o ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s o k a y.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M a y th e w i t n e s s b e s w o r n ?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O r m a y h e …
CHAIRPERSON: Please swear him in.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : G iv e t h e a ff ir m a ti o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r a d m i n is t e r th e a ffir m a ti o n .

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

M x o l is i S a n d i l e O l iv e r

Nxasana.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n w i th m a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

a ffir m a t i o n ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No I have none.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u s o le m n ly a ffi r m t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g i v e

w i ll b e t h e t r u t h , t h e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th i n g b u t t h e tr u t h , i f s o p l e a s e
r a i s e y o u r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, I tr u ly a ffir m ?
10

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I tr u l y a ff ir m .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Mr N x a s a n a w o u l d y o u b r in g t h e
m ic r o p h o n e c l o s e r t o y o u p l e a s e ?

Yo u h a v e i n f r o n t o f y o u a b u n d l e

m a r k e d E E 1 , d o y o u s e e t h a t? I t is E x h i b i t E E 1 ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I h a v e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Would you go to page 27

please?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I a m o n p a g e 2 7 .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h o s e s ig n a t u r e is t h a t a t th e

bottom of page 27?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I c o n fir m t h a t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t y o u r s ig n a tu r e ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s i t is m y s ig n a tu r e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

D i d y o u a t t e s t t o t h is a ff i d a v i t

Page 9 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
la s t n i g h t?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I d i d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e s t a te m e n t fr o m p a g e 1
t o 2 8 a r e y o u s a t is fi e d t h a t t h a t c o r r e c tl y r e f le c ts t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e
e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o g iv e a n d w i s h to g i v e ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

Ye s C h a ir I d o c o n fir m

t h a t th is is my s t a t e m e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d s u b j e c t t o a n y ty p o g r a p h i c a l
e r r o r s o r o t h e r e r r o r s w e m a y c o m e a c r o s s o f w h ic h w e d o n o t y e t k n o w
10

t h e c o n te n ts a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th e c o n t e n ts a r e tr u e a n d
c o r r e c t I c o n f ir m t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

M r P r e t o r iu s b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d I n o ti c e th a t t h e

w i t n e s s d i d a n a ffir m a t io n n o w b u t t h e s t a t e m e n t is – I n o t ic e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o r r y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o t ic e d t h a t th e w it n e s s – t h e w i tn e s s a ff ir m e d a f e w
m i n u t e s a g o b u t th e a ff i d a v i t is – is a n a ffi d a v i t a n d i t is u n d e r o a t h . Is
everything in order with that?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

I n o t ic e th a t n o w C h a ir.

T h is

m o r n in g I a s k e d th e w i t n e s s M r N x a s a n a w h ic h h e w o u l d p r e fe r – w h i c h
c o u r s e o f a c ti o n h e w o u l d l ik e to t a k e t o d a y I w a s – my a t te n ti o n w a s
n o t d r a w n t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h is w a s a n o a t h n o r d i d I h a v e – p a y a n y
a tt e n ti o n t o i t q u it e h o n e s tl y C h a ir.

B u t p e r h a p s t h e w i tn e s s m i g h t

explain?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll w e c a n – w e c a n a s k – Mr N x a s a n a ?

Page 10 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir i t is a n o p t i o n t h a t
w a s o p e n t o m e I w a s a s k e d a q u e s t io n t h e n I o p t e d f o r a n a ff ir m a ti o n
b u t I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b le m g iv in g e v i d e n c e u n d e r o a th .
CHAIRPERSON: So…
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: In line...
C H A I R P E R S O N : E i t h e r i t is fi n e . T h is y o u d id a s a n o a t h a n d i t i s f in e
a n d n o w y o u d id a n a ff ir m a ti o n b o th a r e fi n e I ju s t w a n t t o c h e c k th a t ?
10

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s i t is fi n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e b o t h f in e ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Mr N x a s a n a i t is c o m m o n

k n o w l e d g e t h a t y o u a r e a f o r m e r N a ti o n a l N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b li c
P r o s e c u t io n s .
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That is correct.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d i n t h a t c a p a c i ty y o u c a r r i e d
o u t t h e d u t i e s o f y o u r o ff ic e i n Pr e t o r i a ?
20

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R i g h t . B e f o r e w e d e a l w i th t h e
p e r i o d o f y o u r o w n o ff ic e a n d b e f o r e w e d e a l w i th t h e b r i e f h is t o r y o f
t h e N PA a t le a s t t o y o u r k n o w le d g e b e fo r e y o u c a m e to t h e N PA p l e a s e
t e ll t h e C h a i r w h a t y o u r q u a li f ic a ti o n s a r e a n d w h a t p r o f e s s i o n y o u
p e r f o r m i n g a t th e m o m e n t ?

Page 11 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

C h a ir I h o ld a B . P r o c

D e g r e e a n d a n L L B D e g r e e b o t h d e g r e e s w h i c h I o b t a in e d fr o m t h e
U n iv e r s i ty o f Z u l u l a n d . I s e r v e d a r ti c l e s o f c l e r k s h ip a n d I w a s a d m i t te d
a s a n a t t o r n e y i n 1 9 9 7 a n d fr o m t h a t d a t e o f m y [i n d is t in c t ] I p r a c ti c e d
fr o m m y o w n a c c o u n t u n t il 2 0 1 3 w h e n I w a s a p p o i n t e d a s t h e N a t io n a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u l e ft t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o f
P u b l ic Pr o s e c u t io n s p o s t i n M a y 2 0 1 5 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d s i n c e t h e n w h a t w o r k h a v e
y o u b e e n p e r fo r m i n g i f a n y ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

I have gone back to set

u p m y p r a c tic e a g a i n a n d I a m p r a c t ic i n g i n D u r b a n f o r m y o w n a c c o u n t
a s th e a t t o r n e y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o y o u a r e a n a t to r n e y i n p r i v a t e
p r a c ti c e [i n d i s t i n c t ].
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A lr i g h t .

In S e c ti o n A o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t a t p a g e 1 y o u h a v e g iv e n a b r i e f ti m e l in e i n o r d e r t o
20

ill u s tr a t e a p o in t t h a t i s p e r ti n e n t t o t h e w o r k o f t h e c o m m i s s io n . Yo u
s e t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 3 a t i m e l in e a n d i n t h a t t i m e l i n e y o u n o t e w h o h a s
b e e n t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s fo r w h a t p e r i o d s i n c e
A p r il 2 0 0 1 . W o u ld y o u p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d p le a s e ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. To t h e
b e s t o f m y r e c o ll e c ti o n C h a ir t h e – M r B u l e l a n i N g c u k a w a s th e f ir s t

Page 12 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u t io n s . I t h i n k f r o m A p r il 2 0 0 1 u n t il
31 August 2004.

A n d D o c t o r S i la s R a m a i t e i n a n a c t in g p o s i ti o n w a s

t h e D i r e c t o r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u ti o n s – N a t io n a l D i r e c t o r o f P u b li c
P r o s e c u t io n s fr o m A u g u s t 2 0 0 4 t o J a n u a r y 2 0 0 5 .

Then in – on 1

F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 5 t o 7 F e b r u a r y 2 0 0 9 A d v o c a t e Vu s i P ik o l i w a s t h e
N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s . A f t e r h i m A d v o c a t e M o k o t e d i
M p s h e i n a n a c ti n g c a p a c i t y w a s a ls o a p p o i n te d a s t h e N a ti o n a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s fr o m 1 M a y 2 0 0 9 u n t il 3 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 0 9 .
A f t e r h i m o n 1 D e c e m b e r 2 0 0 9 u n t il 8 M a y 2 0 1 2 A d v o c a t e M e n z i
10

S i m e la n e w a s t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b lic Pr o s e c u ti o n s . Th e n o n 2 0
D e c e m b e r 2 0 11 u n ti l 3 0 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 3 A d v o c a t e N o m g c o b o J ib a w a s
a ls o – w a s a p p o i n t e d to a c t a s t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c
P r o s e c u t io n s . Th e n o n 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 I t o o k u p t h e p o s i ti o n u n ti l t h e
31 May 2015.

I w a s th e N a t i o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s .

I

w a s s u c c e e d e d b y A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s o n th e 1 8 J u n e 2 0 1 5 u n t il
1 3 A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 . O n th e 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 8 t o 3 1 J a n u a r y 2 0 1 9 D o c t o r S il a s
R a m a i t e a g a i n w a s a p p o in t e d to a c t i n th a t c a p a c i ty. Th e n fr o m t h e 1
F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 9 t o d a t e w e h a v e a p e r m a n e n t N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic
P r o s e c u t io n s in A d v o c a t e S h a m i la B a t o h i .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e s t a t u to r y t e r m o f o ffi c e o f

t h e N a t i o n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s i n te r ms t h e N a ti o n a l
P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y A c t w h a t is t h a t ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is te n y e a r s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr ig h t .

H a s a n y o f th e N D P P,

N a t io n a l D ir e c to r s o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s s i n c e i t s i n c e p t i o n e v e r

Page 13 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
c o m p le t e d a t e n y e a r te r m o f o ffi c e ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : U n f o r tu n a te ly n o t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Right.

C h a ir t h e c o n s t it u ti o n a l

c o u r t in th e j u d g m e n t w e r e fe r r e d t o e a r li e r h a s m a d e s o m e p e r t i n e n t
r e m a r k s in r e g a r d t o s e c u r i ty o f t e n u r e in r e l a ti o n t o th e i n d e p e n d e n c e
o f t h e N PA a n d t h a t is s u e w il l b e d e a l t w i t h in d u e c o u r s e .

For the

m o m e n t Mr N x a s a n a y o u r e c a l l c e r ta i n e v e n ts i n r e l a ti o n t o s o m e o f t h e
a p p o i n t m e n ts

and

d i s m is s a l s

of

N a t io n a l

D ir e c t o r s

of

P u b l ic

P r o s e c u t io n t h a t is n o t n e c e s s a r il y t o g i v e a c o m p le t e r e c o r d o f t h e
10

e v i d e n c e it i s m e r e ly to h i g h li g h t a n d r a i s e q u e s ti o n s a t t h is p o i n t i n
ti m e C h a ir. W o u l d y o u t e l l t h e C h a ir o f th e e v e n ts o f w h ic h y o u h a v e a t
le a s t i n d ir e c t k n o w l e d g e f r o m p a r a g r a p h s 4 o n w a r d s ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir
t h e is s u e s a r e o f p u b l ic k n o w l e d g e . A d v o c a te B u l e l a n i N g c u k a a s th e
fir s t N a ti o n a l D i r e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s w a s s u b j e c te d to a
c o m m i s s io n o f i n q u i r y a f te r a l le g a ti o n s w e r e m a d e a g a i n s t h i m t h a t h e
w a s a n a p a r t h e i d s p y a n d a f t e r h e w a s c l e a r e d b y t h e c o m m is s i o n t h a t
w a s h e a d e d i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll b y J u d g e H e ff e r h e t h e n l e ft
t h e N PA .

20

T h e n A d v o c a t e Vu s i P i k o l i w a s a l s o s u b j e c t e d t o t h e s a m e

p r o c e s s o f a c o m m i s s i o n o f i n q u ir y.

I k n o w a t th e ti m e h e h a d

r e i n s t a te d c h a r g e s a g a i n s t t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t J a c o b Z u m a a n d a ls o
h a d i n s t i tu t e d c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s a g a i n s t th e t h e n C o m m i s s io n e r O f
P o lic e a n d t h e Pr e s id e n t o f I n t e r p o l a t t h e ti m e Mr J a c k i e S e le b i –
Commissioner Jackie Selebi I mean.
being

c le a r e d

at

th e

Ginwala

D e s p i t e a ls o h is – d e s p it e h i m

C o m m is s io n

Page 14 of 136

of

I n q u ir y

he

was

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
n e v e r t h e l e s s r e m o v e d fr o m o ffi c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

I k n o w t h a t th e in q u ir y t h a t w a s c h a ir e d b y

D o c to r G in w a l a w a s a n in q u ir y u n d e r th e P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i t y A c t a s
o p p o s e d t o a C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y u n d e r t h e C o m m is s i o n s A c t . I a m
n o t s u r e a b o u t t h e I n q u ir y t h a t w a s c h a ir e d b y J u s tic e H e ff e r in r e la t io n
t o M r N g v u k s w h e t h e r it w a s a C o m m i s s io n e r o f I n q u ir y u n d e r t h e
C o m m i s s i o n s A c t o r w h e t h e r it w a s a n in q u ir y u n d e r th e – ju s t a n
in q u ir y u n d e r t h e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u th o r it y Ac t .

But I think the

p o i n t y o u m a k e is n o t a b o u t th o s e t e c h n ic a l it i e s i t is s i m p l y th a t c e r t a i n
10

in q u ir ie s p r e c e d e t h a t .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Pr e c e d e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e ir d e p a r t u r e . B u t i t is j u s t i m p o r t a n t t o
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : To m a k e a d is ti n c t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To – w h e n w e a r e n o t s u r e j a .
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s th a n k s C h a ir fo r

b r i n g i n g t h a t t o m y a t te n ti o n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

W h a t is c o m m o n t o b o th

p r o c e e d i n g s h o w e v e r is t h a t t h e i n q u ir i e s w h e t h e r ju d i c i a l o r in t e r n a l t o
t h e N PA Ac t a c c o r d i n g t o t h e b e s t o f y o u r r e c o ll e c t io n a n y w a y i n
20

p r i n c i p l e a t l e a s t c le a r b o t h Mr N g c u k a a n d M r P i k o li ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d th e n h o w w a s M r Pi k o li

fi n a l ly r e m o v e d , c a n y o u r e c a ll ? W i t h o u t g o i n g i n t o t o o m u c h d e t a i l .
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Chair I remember that

d e s p i te h i m h a v i n g b e e n c l e a r e d b u t a t t h e ti m e I t h i n k it w a s P r e s i d e n t

Page 15 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
K g a l e m a M o t la n t h e w a s t h e Pr e s id e n t o f t h e R e p u b li c o f S o u t h A f r i c a . I
t h i n k t h e m a t t e r h a d to b e r e fe r r e d t o P a r l ia m e n t a ft e r t h e C o m m i s s i o n
o f In q u ir y b u t I t h i n k t h e y t o o k a d e c is io n t h a t s h e s h o u l d n o t b e
r e ta i n e d a t N PA .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u h a v e t o l d th e C h a ir i n y o u r
ti m e li n e s u m m a r y th a t A d v o c a te M p s h e w a s n o t in t h e p o s i t io n o n a n y
p e r m a n e n t b a s is .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r Pr e t o r i u s d i d h e c o m p l e t e t h e s t o r y i n
10

r e l a ti o n to M r N g c u k a , h i s r e s i g n a t io n a ft e r t h e i n q u i r y, d i d h e c o m p le t e
t h a t p a r t ? W h a t h a p p e n e d t o Mr N g c u k a a f t e r ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n r e l a ti o n t o C h a i r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n r e l a ti o n t o Mr N g c u k a ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N g c u k a y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id h e c o m p l e te t h e s to r y a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d a ft e r
t h e in q u ir y c h a ir e d b y J u d g e H e ff e r ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . H o w d i d h is t e r m o f o ff ic e
c o m e t o a n e n d t o t h e b e s t o f y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : My, m y …

20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d th a t i s a f t e r th e J u d g e

H e ff e r in q u ir y ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

My understanding Chair

is t h a t Mr N g c u k a r e s i g n e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n i n r e l a t i o n to M r P ik o li
y o u s a i d t o t h e C h a ir th a t t h e m a tt e r c a m e b e f o r e P a r l ia m e n t a n d

Page 16 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
s u b s e q u e n t t o t h a t h is – o r a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f t h a t h i s t e r m o f o ffi c e
came to and end?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

It c a m e to a n e n d – I

u n d e r s t a n d th a t a t ti m e s h e d i d m a k e a t t e m p ts to ta k e t h e m a t te r t o
c o u r t b u t I th i n k h e w a s d r a i n e d o u t a n d h e c o u l d n o t p u r s u e t h e m a tt e r
a n d u lt i m a t e ly a s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t w a s r e a c h e d a n d h e l e f t t h e
N PA .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A lr i g h t .

Alright.

T h e d e t a il s

C h a ir a r e u n d e r s t a n d a b ly n o t p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u in t h e ir t h o r o u g h n e s s
10

b u t w il l b e i n t i m e .

T h e n i n r e l a t io n t o M e n z i S i m e la n e w h a t is y o u r

r e c o l l e c ti o n ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

M y r e c o ll e c t io n C h a ir i s

t h a t w h e n M e n z i S i m e l a n e w a s – A d v o c a te M e n z i S i m e la n e w a s
a p p o i n t e d a s t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s h e w a s th e
D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f J u s ti c e b e f o r e t h a t a n d a t t h e i n q u i r y – a t th e
G in w a l a I n q u ir y h e w a s c a l le d t o t e s t i fy a n d th e G i n w a la In q u i r y m a d e
s o m e c r i t ic a l r e m a r k s a b o u t h is t e s ti m o n y a m o n g s t o t h e r th in g s t h a t h is
e v i d e n c e w a s c o n t r a d i c to r y a n d w h e n h e w a s a p p o i n te d b y t h e
P r e s i d e n t a t t h e ti m e a s t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s
20

t h e I t h in k i t w a s D A i f I a m n o t m i s ta k e n w h o t h e n c h a ll e n g e d h is
a p p o i n t m e n t a n d u l ti m a t e ly t h e m a t t e r c a m e b e fo r e t h e c o n s ti t u t i o n a l
c o u r t . T h e c o n s ti t u t i o n a l c o u r t d e c l a r e d h e – t h e a p p o i n t m e n t ir r a ti o n a l
a n d r e v ie w e d i t a n d s e t a s id e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

H e w a s th e n I u n d e r s t a n d

r e p l a c e d in a n a c t i n g c a p a c i ty b y A d v o c a t e J ib a ?

Page 17 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A l r i g h t a n d w e w il l ta lk o f t h a t i n
a li t t le m o r e d e t a i l i n d u e c o u r s e .

I understand you were then

appointed when?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir I w a s a p p o i n te d o n
t h e 3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 w i t h e ff e c t fr o m t h e 1 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 3 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A lr ig h t .

Do you recall any

li ti g a t i o n b e f o r e o u r c o u r ts i n r e l a ti o n t o a d ir e c ti v e t o t h e P r e s i d e n t t o
m a k e a p e r m a n e n t a p p o i n t m e n t?
10

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s I d o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

To th e p o s t o f N D P P ?

Would

y o u j u s t te ll t h e c o u r t – t e l l t h e C h a ir b r ie f l y a b o u t t h a t p le a s e ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

C h a ir I t h i n k t h e

o r g a n i s a t io n c a ll e d C A S A C h a d t a k e n t h e m a t t e r t o c o u r t c o m p e l li n g t h e
P r e s i d e n t t o m a k e a p e r m a n e n t a p p o in t m e n t .

I t h in k a t t h e ti m e t h e

r e a s o n s t h e y a d v a n c e d w a s t h a t th e o ffi c e o f t h e N D P P w a s s u c h a
c r i ti c a l o ffic e t h a t w e c a n n o t a ffo r d t o h a v e a n a c t in g a n d N D P P a t t h e
ti m e a n d t h a t t h e p o s i ti o n h a d t o b e fi ll e d o n a p e r m a n e n t b a s i s . A n d
t h e c o u r t i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll d e l i v e r e d th e j u d g m e n t a n d g a v e
20

t h e P r e s i d e n t w h o w a s P r e s id e n t Zu m a a t t h e t i m e a n d u l t i m a te t i m e t o
fi ll t h e p o s t b y a c e r t a i n d a t e – a p a r ti c u l a r d a t e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

W h e n t h a t e v i d e n c e is

p l a c e d b e fo r e th e C h a i r in t h e f u l ln e s s o f t i m e a n d a l l i ts d e t a i ls c e r ta i n
q u e s t io n s a r i s e a n d t h e y a r is e a s a m a t te r o f o b s e r v a ti o n n o w a n d t h a t
is fi r s tl y y o u r c o m m e n t th a t a p p e a r s to b e e n t ir e l y c o r r e c t t h a t n o

Page 18 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
N a t io n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t i o n s in t h e w h o l e h is t o r y o f t h e
N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u th o r i ty h a s e v e r f u l fi ll e d a f u l l t e r m o f o ff ic e ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H

PRETORIUS SC:

S e c o n d ly t h e h i s to r y o f

e n c u m b r a n c e i n t h a t o ff ic e a p p e a r s t o b e fi ll e d w i t h in q u ir ie s a n d
a l le g a ti o n s r e l a ti n g t o t h e i r f i tn e s s t o h o ld o ffic e a n d v e r y o f te n h a v i n g
b e e n c l e a r e d o f a n y w r o n g d o in g o r a n y a d v e r s e fi n d i n g n e v e r th e l e s s
t h e ir te r m s o f o ff ic e h a v e c o m e to a n e n d ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:
10

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir

e s p e c i a l ly w i t h r e g a r d s t o t h e – w i t h r e g a r d s to M r B u l e la n i N g c u k a a n d
A d v o c a t e Vu s i P ik o l i.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : J a . G i v e n y o u r o w n e x p e r i e n c e
in r e la t io n t o t h e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y a n d th e p o s t o f t h e
N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic Pr o s e c u ti o n s w h a t is y o u r v ie w a s t o t h e
e ffe c t o f th is h is t o r y o n t h e s ta b il it y a n d e ff e c tiv e n e s s o f t h e N PA ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

C h a ir m y v ie w i s t h a t

fr o m t h is h is to r y a n d a ls o w h a t I e x p e r ie n c e d a t N PA m y v i e w i s t h a t
t h e r e h a s b e e n p o li t ic a l in t e r f e r e n c e a s w e ll a s e x t e r n a l i n t e r f e r e n c e
t h a t i m p a c t e d o n th e d e c is i o n m a k i n g i n t h e N PA .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d w o u l d th a t h a v e a n y e ff e c t
o n p u b li c c o n fi d e n c e i n t h e N PA ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o d o u b t i t d id h a v e – i t
d o e s h a v e e ff e c t o n p u b lic c o n fi d e n c e in t h e N PA .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
P a r li a m e n t

play

to

your

k n o w le d g e

Ye s .
in

Page 19 of 136

And what role does

r e la t io n

to

th e

N a t io n a l

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir t h e r e i s a P o r t fo li o
C o m m i t t e e o n J u s tic e b e c a u s e N PA i s a l s o a – a – a u n i t f a l li n g u n d e r
ju s t ic e a l th o u g h it is i n d e p e n d e n t. I t p l a y s p o l it ic a l o v e r s i g h t o v e r th e
ju s t ic e a s w e l l a s N PA .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u w ill m a k e s o m e c o m m e n ts

la t e r i n y o u r e v id e n c e i n r e l a t i o n t o t h e r o l e o f P a r l ia m e n t a n d i n
r e l a ti o n t o m a t t e r s w i t h i n y o u r o w n k n o w l e d g e .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

B u t w e w i ll d o t h a t l a te r i n t h e

s t a te m e n t .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Yo u h a v e a ls o m e n t io n e d th a t

P a r li a m e n t p la y e d a r o l e i n r e la t io n t o M r P ik o l i ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That is correct.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

But perhaps we should place

t h a t e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h e C h a ir i n th e fu ll n e s s o f ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l t h e – t h e s to r y m ig h t n o t b e p e r c e iv e d t o b e

c o m p le t e w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t i n q u i r i e s i n r e la t io n t o t h e N PA .
20

If you

d o n o t m e n ti o n t h a t r e c e n tl y th e r e w a s a l s o a n i n q u i r y r e la t in g t o
somebody

who

had

acted

as

th e

N a ti o n a l

D ir e c to r

of

P u b lic

P r o s e c u t io n s . S o i f o n e s ta t e s s i m p ly f a c ts o f c o u r s e y o u w h a t – w h a t
you

were

talking

about were

th o s e

who

had

been

p e r m a n e n t ly

a p p o i n t e d a s N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s n a m e ly Mr
N g c u k a , M r P ik o l i a n d o f c o u r s e y o u r s e l f b u t t h e r e is a ls o s o m e b o d y

Page 20 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
w h o h a d a c te d q u i t e a n u m b e r o f t i m e s a n d I k n o w y o u w i ll t a lk m o r e
a b o u t s o m e o f th e e v e n t s . T h e n t h e r e w a s a n i n q u ir y i n r e l a ti o n to h e r
a n d i t i s p u b li c k n o w l e d g e th a t th a t i n q u ir y r e a c h e d c e r t a in c o n c lu s i o n s
a n d I t h i n k t h e m a t t e r m a y b e g o i n g t o P a r li a m e n t f o r w h a t i t is w o r th .
I t m a y b e t h a t i t is i m p o r t a n t t o j u s t s t a t e t h o s e – b a c k t h o s e fa c t s . J a .
O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir t h e r e w il l b e r e f e r e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

F u r th e r in t h e e v id e n c e t o a t

le a s t tw o o th e r i n q u ir ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir b u t y o u r c o m m e n t s a r e

noted.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e a p p o in t m e n t o f a N a ti o n a l

D ir e c t o r

you

of

c o n s ti t u ti o n .

P u b li c

Pr o s e c u ti o n s

is

state

governed

by

th e

Yo u d e a l w i t h th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 11 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t .

W o u l d y o u ju s t t e l l t h e C h a ir v e r y b r ie f ly a b o u t th e p r o v is i o n s r e g a r d i n g
t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u ti o n s ?
20

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I a m s o r r y i f y o u j u s t h o l d f o r a
moment.

M a y I s a y p e r h a p s u n s u r p r is in g ly C h a ir th e l iv e s tr e a m is

d o w n a n d I h a v e b e e n a s k e d to r e q u e s t a t e n m i n u t e a d j o u r n m e n t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a l r i g h t . W e w ill ta k e a t e n m i n u t e s a d j o u r n m e n t
t o e n a b le t h e t e c h n ic ia n s t o a t t e n d t o t h e p r o b l e m . W e a d jo u r n .

Page 21 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr N x a s a n a

b e f o r e th e b r e a k y o u w e r e a t p a r a g r a p h 11 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t a n d y o u
h a d – I t h i n k - m a d e t h e p o in t t h a t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e N a t io n a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s is g o v e r n e d b y t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

If I m a y t a k e th e l ib e r ty C h a ir

ju s t t o p la c e o n r e c o r d t h e r e le v a n t s e c ti o n s o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r e f e r M r N x a s a n a t o S e c t io n
1 7 9 o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n w h ic h p r o v i d e s i n S u b s e c ti o n 1 :
“ T h e r e i s a s i n g l e N a ti o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u th o r it y in
t h e R e p u b li c s tr u c tu r e d i n t e r m s o f a n a c t o f
P a r li a m e n t a n d c o n s is ti n g o f a , a n N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r
o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s w h o is th e H e a d o f t h e
P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty
20

a n d is a p p o i n te d b y

th e

P r e s i d e n t a s H e a d o f th e N a t i o n a l Ex e c u ti v e a n d b ,
D ir e c t o r s o f P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s a n d P r o s e c u t o r s a s
d e t e r m i n e d b y a n a c t o f P a r li a m e n t . ”
W h o a p p o i n ts t h e D ir e c t o r s o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s o t h e r th a n t h e
N a t io n a l D i r e c t o r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th e y a r e a l s o a p p o in t e d b y

Page 22 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
the President.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Are they?

T h e n p o w e r s o f th e

P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty a r e s e t o u t i n b r o a d t e r m s i n S e c ti o n 1 7 9 ( 2 )
w h ic h s t a t e s :
“The

P r o s e c u t in g

Authority

has

the

power

to

in s t i tu t e c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s o n b e h a l f o f t h e s ta t e
a n d t o c a r r y o u t a n y n e c e s s a r y fu n c t io n s in c i d e n t a l
t o i n s ti t u ti n g c r i m i n a l p r o c e e d i n g s . ”
S u b s e c ti o n 4 o f S e c ti o n 1 7 9 r e a d s :
10

“National
P r o s e c u t in g

l e g i s l a ti o n
A u th o r it y

must

ensure

e x e r c is e s

i ts

that

th e

fu n c t io n s

w i t h o u t fe a r, fa v o u r o r p r e ju d ic e . ”
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e n S u b s e c ti o n 5 d e a l s w it h

p o li c y a n d t h e f u n c ti o n s o f th e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t i o n s .
H o w is p o lic y i n r e l a t i o n t o p r o s e c u ti o n s fo r mu l a t e d a n d b y w h o m ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t is …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

B e f o r e t h a t M r Pr e to r i u s w i t h r e g a r d t o

w h o a p p o i n ts w h o th e N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t io n s is
20

a p p o i n t e d b y th e P r e s i d e n t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d a ls o t h e D i r e c t o r s o f P u b lic

P r o s e c u t io n s a r e a p p o i n t e d b y t h e Pr e s id e n t. Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e D ir e c t o r s o f P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s a r e t h o s e th e

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
N PA O ff ic i a l s w h o a r e in v a r io u s p r o v i n c e s o r s o m e a r e h e a d i n g t h e
N PA i n p r o v i n c e s b u t o t h e r s a r e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly h e a d in g N PA i n
p r o v i n c e s b u t fa ll w i t h i n s o m e o r o t h e r o ffic e o f th e N PA o r in t h e
c o u r ts . W h a t i s t h e p o s i ti o n ? W h a t is th e s tr u c t u r e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O k a y C h a ir. Th e N a ti o n a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s is th e H e a d o f t h e P r o s e c u t i o n i n S o u t h
A fr ic a a n d t h e n w e h a v e – d u r i n g m y ti m e f o u r a n d I t h in k t h a t is s ti ll –
t h a t i s w h a t is s t il l i n e x is t e n c e .
D ir e c t o r s o f P u b li c P r o s e c u t io n s .
10

T h e n h a v e f o u r D e p u ty N a t i o n a l
W e t h e n h a v e S p e c i a l D ir e c t o r s o f

P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s . Th e n w e h a v e a ll o f th e s e th a t I h a v e m e n ti o n e d
a r e b a s e d a t th e H e a d O ffi c e in P r e t o r i a – o f t h e N a t i o n a l P r o s e c u ti n g
A u t h o r i ty. Th e n i n t h e d i v i s i o n s – i n th e r e g i o n s – w e h a v e th e H e a d s
o f t h e Pr o s e c u ti o n s w h o a r e th e D i r e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s . A ll o f
t h e m a r e a p p o in t e d a l s o b y t h e P r e s i d e n t o n th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n o f th e
M i n is t e r o f J u s t ic e – I th in k – i n c o n s u l t a ti o n w i th t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c to r
o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u h a v e t a l k e d a b o u t D ir e c t o r s o f P r o s e c u t io n s

a n d a H e a d o f D ir e c t o r s o f P r o s e c u t i o n s . I s t h a t r ig h t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

Ye s .

T h e D ir e c to r s o f

P u b l ic Pr o s e c u t io n s a r e H e a d o f Pr o s e c u ti o n s i n t h e r e g io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o e a c h D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u t io n s …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is – is H e a d o f c e r t a i n r e g i o n in s o f a r a s th e N PA is

concerned?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s . I f …

Page 24 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d t h e r e g i o n s a r e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly d e m a r c a t e d
in a c c o r d a n c e w i t h p r o v i n c e s o r a r e t h e y n e c e s s a r il y d e m a r c a t e d
according to provinces?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A d e c is io n h a d b e e n t a k e n
t o a li g n t h e m to p r o v in c e s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

B e c a u s e i n i t ia ll y t h a t w a s

t h e w h o l e i d e a t h a t t h e D ir e c t o r s o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s s h o u l d b e
a l ig n e d t o th e – t o t h e p r o v i n c e s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th a t th e y – t h e y a r e H e a d s
o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s i n t h e p r o v i n c e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

But we have exceptions

lik e i n G a u t e n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I n G a u te n g w e h a v e – w e

h a v e t w o D ir e c to r s o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t i o n .

Th a t is o n e f o r t h e S o u t h

Gauteng …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A n d o n e fo r th e N o r t h

Gauteng …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B u t I – w h e n I le f t – a t t h e
ti m e w h e n I l e f t t h e y w e r e i n th e p r o c e s s o f a l ig n in g t h e m s o t h a t i t w ill

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
have one …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

O n e D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c

P r o s e c u t io n s . W e w i ll h a v e o n e P r e m ie r f o r t h e p r o v in c e . W e w i ll h a v e
one President …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Judge President.

We wil

h a v e D i r e c to r o f P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s a n d i n t h e E a s t e r n C a p e a s w e ll …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B e c a u s e o f th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N u m b e r o f H ig h C o u r ts ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: The number of High Courts
a n d th e – a n d t h e f a c t t h a t t h e a r e a is s o w i d e t o c o v e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n .

We had two Directors of

H e n c e w e a ls o h a d t w o D e p u ty – D e p u ty J u d g e

P r e s i d e n ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : L ik e i n G a u t e n g .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h o s e a r e t h e o n ly – t h o s e
a r e t h e o n l y e x c e p t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t a s a g e n e r a l r u l e w h e n o n e h e a r s th e t e r m

D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u t io n s w h e n i t i s u s e d i n t h e c o n t e x t o f t h e
N PA o n e s h o u ld b e th i n k i n g o f s o m e b o d y i n c h a r g e o f p r o s e c u ti o n s i n

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
t h e a r e a fa ll in g u n d e r a c e r ta in H i g h C o u r t o r i n a – in a p r o v in c e b u t
a c c e p ti n g t h a t t h e r e a r e p r o v i n c e s w h e r e t h e r e a r e t w o D i r e c t o r s
in s t e a d o f o n e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e r e t h e r e a r e tw o i n t h e s a m e p r o v i n c e t h a t i s

D ir e c t o r s o f P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s o n e o f t h e m w o u l d b e th e H e a d ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e y – th e y …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: They – they are equal.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is n o H e a d o r t h e y a r e b o th c o H e a d s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

They are both co Heads,

yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

S o i s th e N a t io n a l D i r e c to r o f P u b l ic

P r o s e c u t io n s a t t h e t o p …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n fo u r D e p u ty …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r s o f Pr o s e c u ti o n s ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a l l th o s e a r e a t th e H e a d O ffi c e in P r e t o r ia o f th e
N PA ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: And then you have Special …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : S p e c i a l D ir e c to r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D ir e c t o r s o f P r o s e c u t i o n s . Is th a t r i g h t?

Page 27 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d t h o s e tw o a r e o r h o w m a n y w o u l d th e r e b e
o f S p e c i a l D ir e c t o r s o f Pr o s e c u ti o n s – P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W h e n I l e ft – b e c a u s e t h i s
is n o t p r o v i d e b y t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e A c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In t h e A c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I th in k th e y w e r e a p p o in t e d
10

in t e r m s o f a p r o c la m a t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B y t h e P r e s id e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. S o th e n u m b e r m ig h t c h a n g e fr o m t i m e to
ti m e ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

The number might change

fr o m ti m e t o ti m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B e c a u s e a t th e t i m e i t w a s
A d v o c a t e L a w r e n c e M g w e b i fo r t h e S p e c i a lis e d C o m m e r c ia l C r i m e U n i t
20

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A n d a t th e t i m e i t w a s

Mr Dawood …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 28 of 136

Who

was

the

Special

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
D ir e c t o r f o r – w h a t i s t h is u n it t h a t d e a ls w it h w i t n e s s e s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S e x u a l – o h – p r o te c t i o n o f w it n e s s e s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

W i tn e s s p r o t e c ti o n , y e s .

W i tn e s s p r o te c ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

O ff ic e

fo r

W i tn e s s

P r o t e c ti o n a n d w e a ls o h a d a – a n o t h e r p o s t o f th e S p e c i a l D ir e c to r
w h ic h I r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t i t b e f r o z e n .

A t t h e ti m e A b r a h a m s –

A d v o c a t e S h a u n A b r a h a m s w a s a c ti n g w h e n I a r r iv e d a t N PA …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

And that was the Special

D ir e c t o r f o r Pr io r i ty C r i m e L it i g a t io n U n i t.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

N o w in t e r m s o f th e h i e r a r c h y i t is t h e

N a t io n a l D i r e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t io n s .

I t i s t h e D e p u ty N a ti o n a l

D ir e c t o r s o f P u b lic P r o s e c u ti o n s a n d t h e n is it t h e n th e S p e c ia l
D ir e c t o r s b e l o w t h a t?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W e ll th e y ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e y a r e o n th e s a m e le v e l a s t h e D ir e c to r s ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : As t h e D i r e c to r s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th e y a r e o n t h e s a m e l e v e l
b u t t h e r e is t h a t p o w e r p la y …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
D ir e c t o r s a n d t h e D ir e c to r s .

Page 29 of 136

Between

the

Special

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t w h o is a t H e a d O ff ic e …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And who …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o is n o t a t H e a d O ffi c e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I think that power play –

y o u k n o w – i t p la y e d i t s e l f o u t
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

I n t h e m a t te r w e w il l t a l k

a b o u t e a r li e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: A bit later on.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t l e g a l ly t h e y a r e o n t h e s a m e … ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th e y a r e o n t h e s a m e l e v e l
yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

20

I t i s ju s t t h a t th e y a r e

D ir e c t o r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

They

are

Special

D ir e c t o r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

B e l o w t h e D ir e c t o r s d o y o u h a v e D e p u ty

D ir e c t o r s …

Page 30 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: We …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f P u b li c P r o s e c u ti o n s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

We have Deputy Directors

o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d t h e n t h o s e …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: And …
CHAIRPERSON:

Could be a number – there could be a number of

them?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

T h e r e c o u ld b e a n u m b e r

of them …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

And some of them at the

H e a d O ffi c e . T h e y a r e a l l o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

W e ll

they

a ls o

rank

Ye s

th e y

have

t h e m s e l v e s – th e D e p u ti e s – a s s e n io r a n d D e p u ti e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , t h e r e a r e d i ffe r e n t l e v e l s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

d i ff e r e n t le v e ls .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

N o w P r o s e c u t o r s t h a t o n e fi n d s in th e H i g h C o u r t s

a n d in t h e M a g is tr a te ’s C o u r t w o u l d th e y s i m p ly b e P r o s e c u t o r s o r s o m e
o f th e m w o u ld b e D e p u ty D ir e c t o r s a n d m a y b e e v e n D ir e c t o r D ir e c t o r s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

The

Prosecutors

who

n o r m a l ly p r o s e c u t e in t h e H i g h C o u r ts th e y a r e th e A d v o c a t e s w h o a r e

Page 31 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
b a s e d i n th e D P P s O ff ic e – t h e D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s O ff ic e s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

And anyone – you might

fi n d – y o u m ig h t fi n d a n y o n e p r o s e c u t in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

(Intervenes) from an - an

Advocate to …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : To a S e n i o r A d v o c a t e
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

D e p u ty D ir e c t o r, S e n io r

D e p u ty D ir e c t o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y – t h e y f a l l u n d e r t h e O ffic e o f …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e D P P.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f a p a r t ic u l a r D P P …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e p r o v i n c e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y a n d …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Then the Prosecutors that

y o u f i n d in t h e lo w e r c o u r ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
R e g io n a l C o u r t s g o i n g …

Page 32 of 136

By lo w e r c o u r t s I m e a n

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Down to the …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D is tr ic t C o u r ts .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

To t h e D is tr ic t C o u r t s .

T h o s e a r e Pr o s e c u t o r s th a t fa ll u n d e r th e C h i e f P r o s e c u t o r s i n t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e p a r tic u l a r c o u r t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

In th e p a r ti c u l a r c o u r t .

T h e C h i e f – t h e C h i e f P r o s e c u t o r s th e y – t h e y – u n d e r t h e m I th in k t h e y
c o v e r a c e r ta in a r e a …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O f j u r i s d ic ti o n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O f j u r is d ic t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Under whom they have

Prosecutors.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
Prosecutor

w i ll

be

th e

Senior

P u b li c

Below
Prosecutors,

the

Chief

( i n te r v e n e s )

Prosecutors.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr o s e c u t o r s , j a .
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e n P r o s e c u to r s a n d – i n
t h e ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In t h e ir r a n k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B a s ic a l ly in – i n t h e p r o v in c e w h e r e t h e y o p e r a t e t h e
P r o s e c u t o r s – C h ie f P r o s e c u t o r s a n d w h o e v e r t h e y f a ll u n d e r t h e D P P

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
o f t h e P r o v in c e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Al l o f t h e m , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: All of them?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d – a n d t h e Pr e s id e n t a p p o i n ts t h e D P P s …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: The DPPs, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: But below that does he go that far?
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o h e d o e s n o t g o t h a t fa r.
CHAIRPERSON: He stops there?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : H e s t o p s th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w h o a p p o i n ts th e D P P s – th e N D P P ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: The …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h o a p p o i n ts th e m ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e D e p u t ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e D e p u ty D ir e c t o r s ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e D e p u ty D i r e c to r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

It is the NDPP and the –

a n d th e M i n is t e r - t h e M i n i s t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e M i n i s t e r in c o n s u l t a ti o n w i t h th e N D P P ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W it h th e N D P P.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 34 of 136

Yo u r e f e r to

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
S e c t io n 1 7 9 ( 5 ) o f t h e C o n s t it u ti o n . T h a t i s t h e s u b s e c ti o n w h ic h d e a l s
with

the

powers

and

d u t ie s

of the

N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r

o f P u b l ic

P r o s e c u t io n s . P e r h a p s w e s h o u l d p l a c e th a t o n r e c o r d a n d t h e n I - y o u
m a y m a k e a n y c o m m e n t t h a t y o u w is h . S u b s e c ti o n 1 7 9 ( 5 ) r e a d s :
“ T h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u ti o n s a ,
m u s t d e t e r m i n e w i th t h e c o n c u r r e n c e o f t h e C a b i n e t
Member

r e s p o n s ib le

for

the

a d m in is t r a ti o n

of

J u s t ic e a f t e r c o n s u l ti n g t h e D ir e c to r s o f P u b lic
P r o s e c u t io n s P r o s e c u ti o n P o lic y w h ic h m u s t b e
10

o b s e r v e d in t h e p r o s e c u ti o n p r o c e s s . ”
I t a p p e a r s t h e n fr o m th e C o n s ti t u ti o n th a t i s t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r ’s
p r i m a r y r e s p o n s ib il i ty o r a t l e a s t r e s p o n s i b i li ty i n t h e fir s t in s t a n c e t o
d e t e r m i n e p o l ic y in r e g a r d t o p r o s e c u ti o n s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t d o e s th a t m e a n i n p r a c ti c a l
t e r m s ? W h a t p o l ic i e s a r e d e t e r m in e d ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a i r i t m e a n s t h a t th e –

t h e N D P P m u s t c o n s u l t w it h t h e D ir e c to r s o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s . T h e
p o li c y t o b e f o ll o w e d in p r o s e c u ti n g m a t t e r s t h a t is h o w t o g o a b o u t
20

p r o s e c u t i n g m a t t e r s a n d w h a t is e x p e c t e d o f t h e P r o s e c u to r s i n
h a n d l in g m a t t e r s w h e n t h e y a r e p r o s e c u ti n g t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t w o u l d i n c lu d e – w o u ld th a t in c l u d e w h e n t o

p r o s e c u t e a n d w h e n t o n o t to p r o s e c u t e a n d w h e n t o w it h d r a w c h a r g e s
o r p r o s e c u t io n ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 35 of 136

Th a t is – t h a t i s c o r r e c t

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D o y o u r e c a ll t h e c o n te n t o f t h e
p o li c y in b r o a d t e r m s w h i ls t y o u w e r e t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b l ic
P r o s e c u t io n s ?
MR MXOLISISANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I cannot remember anyone

s p e c i f ic o ffh a n d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : P e r h a p s – p e r h a p s t h a t i s a t a s k
f o r t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s …
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n d u e c o u r s e . S e c ti o n 1 7 9 ( 5 )

g o e s o n t o s t a te t h a t :
“ T h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s m u s t
is s u e p o li c y d i r e c t iv e s w h i c h m u s t b e o b s e r v e d in
t h e p r o s e c u ti o n p r o c e s s . ”
A n d S u b s e c ti o n C o f S u b s e c t io n 5 r e a d s :
“The

N a t io n a l

D ir e c t o r

may

intervene

in

the

p r o s e c u t i o n p r o c e s s w h e n p o li c y d ir e c t iv e s a r e n o t
c o m p li e d w it h . ”
20

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h a t
m e a n s C h a ir a s t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u t io n y o u c a n
m e r o m o t u o n y o u r o w n i n t e r v e n e w h e n y o u b e li e v e th a t p r o s e c u t i o n
p o li c y a n d d i r e c t iv e s h a v e n o t b e e n fo ll o w e d i n a p a r t ic u l a r m a tt e r o r
w h e n a n y o f t h e p a r ti e s i n v o lv e d in th e m a tt e r a p p r o a c h e s y o u a s t h e

Page 36 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t i o n s a n d m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t h a t
y o u r e v i e w t h e d e c is i o n t o p r o s e c u t e h i m o r h e r o r a d e c is i o n n o t t o
p r o s e c u t e a p a r ti c u l a r i n d iv id u a l .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u r e f e r t o S e c ti o n 1 7 9 ( 6 ) o f

t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 .

W h a t d o e s th a t

d e a l w it h ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n o th e r w o r d s w h o e x e r c i s e s

fi n a l r e s p o n s i b i li ty o v e r th e N a t io n a l P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty ?
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t i s t h e M in is t e r o f

J u s t ic e a n d c u r r e n tly i t i s th e M i n i s t e r o f J u s ti c e a n d C o r r e c t io n a l
S e r v ic e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S e r v ic e s , r i g h t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

B u t I m u s t a ls o e x p la i n

C h a ir t h a t w h i ls t h e – t h e M i n is t e r – e x e r c is e s fi n a l r e s p o n s ib il i ty o v e r
t h e N PA t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f J u s t ic e i s t h e a c c o u n t in g o ffi c e r o f th e
N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u th o r i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I – I t a k e i t t h a t h e – h e is b e i n g a c c o u n ti n g o ff ic e r is
li m i te d t o h o w m o n e y is s p e n t o r is - d o e s i t g o b e h i n d th a t a s f a r a s
20

y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h e p o s i ti o n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : W e ll a s fa r a s I …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Perhaps

th e r e

is

a

p u b lic

in t e r e s t i n y o u r q u e s ti o n a n d i ts a n s w e r. O n c e a g a i n w e a r e d o w n …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d o ffl in e .

Page 37 of 136

I have been

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
r e q u e s t e d to a s k f o r 1 0 m i n u te s . T h i s is a ls o i m p o r t a n t I th i n k f o r t h e
record …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o …
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o t h a t is i m p o r ta n t th a t w e s h o u ld h a v e i t o n

record.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Perhaps we should take the

s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s .

I t i s – it i s a b o u t t h e ti m e f o r t e a .

I was not

g o i n g to t a k e i t b e c a u s e w e ju s t h a d 1 0 m i n u t e s b u t w e a r e f o r c e d t o
t a k e it n o w.

S o w e w il l t a k e a n a d j o u r n m e n t u n t il h a l f p a s t 11 .

H o p e fu ll y i t w il l b e s o r t e d o u t …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e m e a n ti m e . W e a d j o u r n .
H E A R IN G A D J O U R N S
H E A R IN G R E S U M E S
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m t o l d t h a t t h e t e c h n ic a l p r o b le m s h a v e b e e n

s o r t e d o u t a t l e a s t f o r n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t l e a s t f o r n o w C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . L e t u s p r o c e e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr N x a s a n a i f
y o u g o t o p a r a g r a p h 1 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u d e a l w it h S e c t i o n 9 o f t h e
N a t io n a l P r o s e c u t i n g A u th o r i ty Ac t w h i c h i s t h e l e g is la t io n w h ic h
d ir e c t ly g o v e r n s t h e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty a n d y o u r e f e r …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Page 38 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

To t h e S e c t i o n w h i c h s e ts o u t

t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f t h e p e r s o n w h o m a y b e a p p o i n te d a s N a t io n a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t i o n s . W h a t a r e t h o s e r e q u ir e m e n t s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir is t h a t t h e p e r s o n

m u s t p o s s e s s l e g a l q u a li f ic a t i o n s t h a t e n t it le h i m t o – h i m o r h e r – t o
a p p e a r i n a ll c o u r ts i n t h e R e p u b li c o f S o u th A f r i c a a n d a ls o t h a t th a t
p e r s o n m u s t b e a fi t a n d p r o p e r p e r s o n w i t h d u e r e g a r d t o h is o r h e r
e x p e r i e n c e c o n s c i e n ti o u s n e s s a n d i n t e g r i ty t o b e e n t r u s t e d w i t h t h e
r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s o f O ffi c e o f t h e N D P P.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s a n d p a r t ic u l a r ly r e le v a n t t o

y o u r p a r ti c u la r c a s e a r e th e p r o v is io n s o r w e r e th e p r o v is io n s o f
S e c t io n 1 2 o f t h e A c t w h i c h w e w il l d e a l w i t h w h e n w e c o m e t o t h e
C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t m a t t e r i n v o l v i n g y o u r s e l f a n d o t h e r s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h e r e c e r t a i n s u b s e c ti o n s w e r e
d e c l a r e d u n c o n s ti t u t i o n a l .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t u s t h e n d e a l w i t h S e c ti o n C
w h ic h d e t a ils t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s p r e c e d i n g a n d s u r r o u n d i n g y o u r
20

a p p o i n t m e n t a s N a t io n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s in 2 0 1 3 .
W o u l d y o u t e l l th e C h a i r a b o u t t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s p l e a s e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir. C h a ir a s I h a v e
p o i n t e d o u t th a t I w a s c o n d u c t in g m y o w n p r iv a te p r a c ti c e in D u r b a n .
T h e n d u r in g 2 0 1 3 - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t d a te a n d t h e m o n t h – I
r e c e i v e d a c a ll f r o m M r M ic h a e l H u ll e y w h o w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s L e g a l

Page 39 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A d v is o r – fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Z u m a ’s L e g a l A d v is o r a t t h e t i m e –
w h o w a n t e d to s e e m e a n d I o b li g e d . H e c a m e o v e r t o s e e m e a t m y
o ffic e i n D u r b a n .

W e h a d a d is c u s s i o n w it h h i m .

He told me that he

w a s l o o k i n g fo r a c a n d i d a t e to f il l t h e p o s it io n o f t h e N a t io n a l D i r e c t o r
o f P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s a s h e w a s m a n d a t e d b y P r e s i d e n t Z u m a .

He

h a d w i th h i m th r e e n a m e s th a t h e t o l d m e t h a t h e h a d b e e n g i v e n –
w e r e g iv e n to h i m b y c o ll e a g u e s in D u r b a n b u t w h e n h e b o u n c e d o ff
t h o s e n a m e s t o th o s e c o ll e a g u e s th e y w e r e o f t h e v ie w t h a t I w a s th e
p e r s o n w h o c o u ld d o t h e jo b a n d m y n a m e w a s n o t a m o n g s t t h e lis t .
10

H e n c e h e t h e n c a m e t o s e e m e . H e e x p r e s s e d th e n t h e – h e a s k e d m e
if I w a s w il li n g t o t a k e o v e r th e – I w o u l d b e w il li n g t o t a k e o v e r t h e
appointment …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e M r N x a s a n a
in r e l a ti o n t o t h e p r o c e s s b y w h ic h y o u h a d b e e n s e l e c t e d d i d h e
m e n ti o n a n y t h in g o t h e r m o r e f o r m a l t h a n b o u n c in g y o u r n a m e o ff o t h e r
colleagues?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o s ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. S o r r y p r o c e e d i f y o u w i ll .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

20

T h e n C h a ir i t – I w a s

s u r p r is e d . I w a s s h o c k e d a n d s u r p r i s e d b e c a u s e n o t i n b a d w a y t h a t I
n e v e r th o u g h t t h a t o n e d a y I w o u l d b e c o m e a P r o s e c u t o r b e c a u s e I h a d
c h o s e n t o b e c o m e a n A t to r n e y b u t it a l s o a t t h e s a m e ti m e h u m b l e d m e
t h a t m y c o l l e a g u e s e s p e c i a l ly fr o m m y d i v is io n s a w s o m e t h i n g i n m e
t h a t I c o u l d h e a d a n i n s t i tu t e – i n s ti t u ti o n o f t h a t m a g n it u d e . T h e n I f e lt
that - I remember that I even remarked to him that if my colleagues

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
h a v e c o n fi d e n c e i n m e s o w h y n o t – w h y s h o u l d I n o t h a v e c o n f i d e n c e
in m y s e l f. T h e n I w a s w il li n g a s e v e r y o n e w o u ld b e w i ll i n g t o s e r v e th e
c o u n tr y. I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e – m y c o l l e a g u e s s a w s o m e q u a li ti e s in m e
t h a t e n t e r e d m e t o b e a p p o i n te d t o t h a t p o s i ti o n . I th e n a g r e e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u s u b s e q u e n t ly m e e t w i t h
the President at the time?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

A m e e ti n g w a s th e n

s c h e d u l e d t o m e e t t h e P r e s i d e n t a t h is o ffi c ia l r e s i d e n c e i n Pr e to r i a a n d
I r e m e m b e r – I t h i n k it w a s a r o u n d A u g u s t i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n i f n o t
10

b e f o r e t h a t . I w e n t u p t o m e e t t h e Pr e s i d e n t a t h is o ff ic ia l r e s i d e n c e in
Pretoria.

Pr e s e n t a t th e m e e t in g w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t , M r H u ll e y a n d I

t h i n k t h e r e w a s a ls o t h e l a d y w h o – w h o I w a s la t e r t o ld th a t s h e w a s –
she

was

a ls o

the

Legal

Advisor

to

the

Pr e s i d e n t

–

M s B o n is iw e M a k h e n e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S p e ll th a t s u r n a m e p l e a s e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

S p e lt

M - A- K - H - E- N - E ,

Makhene.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W e l l b a s e d o n w h a t M r H u ll e y s a id t o y o u i t s e e m s

t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g is h e s a i d to y o u y o u r p e e r s s u g g e s te d t h a t
y o u m ig h t b e th e r ig h t p e r s o n .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m – a n d y o u – y o u h a d n o t a p p li e d f o r a n y p o s it i o n ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o , n o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 41 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

What happened at that

m e e ti n g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A t t h a t m e e ti n g - b e fo r e I

w e n t t o t h e m e e t in g M r H u ll e y a s s u r e d m e t h a t I w a s n o t g o i n g to a n
in t e r v ie w o f a n y s o r t .

T h e P r e s i d e n t w a n te d j u s t t o s e e m e , i n t e r a c t

w i t h m e a n d I s h o u ld r e l a x a n d t h a t i s e x a c tl y w h a t h a p p e n e d . I t w a s
n o t a n in t e r v ie w.
10

I t w a s a n i n te r a c t i o n a n d w h a t I r e m e m b e r q u i t e

v iv id ly w h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t a s k e d m e o f w a s t h a t d i d I h a v e c o u r a g e to
t a k e u p th a t p o s it i o n . To w h ic h I r e s p o n d e d b y s a y i n g y e s I d o a n d I
e v e n s a i d to h i m t h a t k n o w i n g t h a t h e h a s b e e n th r o u g h h a r d s h i p s I
t h o u g h t th a t h e m e a n t t h a t I w o u ld b e a b l e t o t a k e d e c i s i o n s
in d e p e n d e n tly a n d f ir m ly. T h e n I s a i d y e s I h a v e t h a t c o u r a g e a n d a ls o
I r e m e m b e r h e e v e n s a i d s o m e t h i n g i n is i Z u l u th a t i t is l ik e th a t p o s i ti o n
m i g h t b e li k e t h e p e o p l e s t a b b in g y o u w i th a r r o w s s o m e th i n g lik e th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Well you can say it …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In is i Z u lu .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In is i Z u l u a n d t h e n s e e k t o tr a n s la t e – in t e r p r e t i t f o r

20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P e o p le w h o m i g h t n o t u n d e r s ta n d is i Z u l u .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I think if I remember well

h e s a i d t h a t p o s i ti o n is lik e ( is i Z u l u ) w h ic h I u n d e r s t o o d h i m t o b e

Page 42 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
s a y in g t h a t i t w a s a – a v e r y d i ffi c u l t ta s k t o h a n d l e a n d h e d e s c r i b e d i t
a s l ik e a – a r r o w s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A p o s it i o n w h e r e …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A p o s i ti o n w h e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S p e a r s w o u l d b e d ir e c t e d a t y o u .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

S p e a r s w o u ld b e d ir e c t e d

at you yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

That is – that is the (intervenes).

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : L i t e r a ll y y e s , y e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a p o s it i o n w h e r e s p e a r s c o u l d b e d ir e c t e d a t y o u .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Is t h e r e a n y th in g e ls e a b o u t t h e
m e e ti n g t h a t y o u w is h t o t e l l th e C h a i r ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Th e n C h a ir a s a b o u t I w a s
le a v in g – a b o u t I w a s l e a v in g th e m e e ti n g - I t h i n k t h e m e e ti n g l a s t e d
f o r n o t m o r e th a n 3 0 m in u t e s b e c a u s e I r e m e m b e r it c o i n c i d e d b e c a u s e
I h a d t o w a i t th e r e .

20

I t w a s a d a t e w h e n I th i n k t h e f o r m e r D e p u t y

P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n t r y – Ms M l a m b o - N g c u k a - w a s t h e r e I t h i n k t o
m e e t t h e Pr e s id e n t b e fo r e s h e w a s g o i n g t o t a k e u p th e p o s i ti o n i n t h e
– i n – I t h i n k w a s i t i n T h e H a g u e i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n - h a d a lo n g
m e e ti n g t h e n I h a d t o w a i t . T h e r e w e r e a l s o o th e r M i n i s t e r s th e r e th a t
w e r e w a i t in g t o s e e t h e P r e s i d e n t .

A s I w a s l e a v i n g I th i n k it w a s

M r H u l l e y w h o a s k e d if t h e – I h a d a n y t h i n g t o – t o s a y a n d my

Page 43 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
r e s p o n s e w a s th a t m y f a t h e r w h o is n o w la t e w a s a tr a d e u n io n is t a n d I
k n o w t h a t h e w o u l d m e n ti o n t h a t t h e Pr e s i d e n t - J a c o b Zu m a – w a s h is
c o m r a d e a t t h e ti m e . I f e l t th a t w a s n e c e s s a r y to b r i n g t h a t t o t h e – t o
t h e ir a t t e n t io n . I th in k t h a t w a s b e c a u s e – I t h i n k th a t w a s p r o m p te d b y
a q u e s t i o n th a t – I th i n k t h e q u e s t io n w a s – w a s I r e l a t e d to
S iz w e N x a s a n a i f I r e m e m b e r w e ll . T h e n I s a i d t o th e m S iz w e is m y –
is my b r o th e r in is i Z u lu . W e l l i n E n g l is h h e is m y c o u s i n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is h e – I k n o w w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u

s a y i n is i Z u l u a n d in E n g lis h b e c a u s e i n t h e Z u lu c u l tu r e – y o u k n o w –
10

if y o u a r e o f th e s a m e s u r n a m e – y o u k n o w – t h e r e – t h e r e is s o m e k in d
o f c o n n e c ti o n th a t y o u – t h a t is r e c o g n is e d e v e n t h o u g h y o u m i g h t n o t
b e r e la t e d i n a n y w a y i n th e E n g l is h s e n s e . I t h i n k t h a t is w h a t y o u a r e
t a lk in g a b o u t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W i th h i m a r e y o u r e l a t e d in a n y w a y i n t h e E n g l is h

sense?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o w e a r e B l a c k r e l a ti v e s .
Our – our …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e B l a c k r e la t iv e s ?
20

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Our

brothers.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .

Page 44 of 136

grandfathers

are

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

What

happened

then

on

3 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 p u r s u a n t to t h i s m e e t in g ? D i d y o u …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Oh the 30th …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Have

fu r t h e r

contact

with

Mr Hulley?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ja.

30 August 2013

I

r e m e m b e r I w a s r u n n in g a tr i a l a t U m la z i C o u r t in a c iv il tr ia l th e n I
r e c e i v e d a c a ll f r o m M r H u l l e y w h o t h e n a s k e d m e t o s e n d – to s e n d
10

h i m m y C V w h ic h I t h e n d id .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Did he tell you anything of the

P r e s i d e n t ’s i n t e n t io n s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

He told me that the

P r e s i d e n t w a s u n d e r p r e s s u r e t o a p p o in t a n d h e i n t e n d e d a p p o in t – to
announce my appointment.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Wa s

your

a p p o in t m e n t

s u b s e q u e n t ly a n n o u n c e d b y t h e Pr e s id e n t?

20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A lt h o u g h M r H u ll e y h a d

told

going

me

th a t t h e

–

the

President

was

to

announce

the

a p p o i n t m e n t p r o b a b ly o v e r t h e w e e k e n d o r o n a M o n d a y I th i n k
c ir c u m s ta n c e s – h e t o l d m e t h a t c ir c u m s t a n c e s f o r c e d h i m b e c a u s e t h e
in f o r m a ti o n l e a k e d fr o m t h e P r e s id e n t’s o ffi c e w h ic h th e n p r e c i p i t a t e d
t h e P r e s i d e n t t o m a k e th e a n n o u n c e m e n t t h e n e x t d a y w h ic h w a s
31 August 2013.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. D o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r t h e

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
p o s i ti o n p r i o r to y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t o f N a t io n a l D i r e c t o r o f P u b li c
P r o s e c u t io n s w a s a d v e r t is e d in a n y w a y ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

N o I d o n o t k n o w.

I had

n o t s e e n a n y a d v e r t is e m e n ts my s e l f .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d a p a r t fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e

t o l d t h e C h a ir a r e y o u a w a r e o f a n y m o r e f o r m a l o r a n y o t h e r - f o r t h a t
m a t t e r – s e le c t i o n p r o c e s s ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir. I h a v e n o i d e a i f
t h e r e w e r e o t h e r s e le c ti o n p r o c e s s e s o r w h e t h e r t h e r e w e r e o th e r
10

c a n d i d a t e s in t e r v i e w e d b u t C h a ir I t h i n k I m u s t p a u s e to m e n t i o n t h a t
la t e r o n I d i s c o v e r e d t h a t A d v o c a te J i b a a s s h e w a s a c ti n g s h e w a s
p r o m is e d

by

the

th e n

M i n i s te r

of

J u s t ic e

and

C o n s ti t u ti o n a l

D e v e l o p m e n t – M i n is t e r J e ff R a d e b e – t h a t s h e w a s g o i n g t o b e
a p p o i n t e d o n a p e r m a n e n t b a s is .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

W e d e a l w i t h th a t l a t e r.

F o r th e m o m e n t th o u g h w e r e y o u e v e r s u b j e c t e d t o a n i n t e r v ie w i n t h e
f o r m a l s e n s e w h e r e y o u w e r e a s k e d q u e s t io n s a b o u t y o u r o w n h i s t o r y,
y o u r o w n q u a l i fic a ti o n s y o u r p r o f e s s i o n a l h is to r y ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Except for the meeting?
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Yo u r a tt i tu d e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : E x c e p t o f t h e m e e ti n g t h a t
we

had

on

the

–

when

I

met

Pr e s id e n t Z u m a ,

M r H u ll e y

and

M s B o n is iw e M a k h e n e – n o t h i n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

Right.

So

there

was

no

in t e r v ie w t h a t o n e c o u ld d e s c r i b e a s a f o r m a l jo b a p p li c a t io n i n t e r v i e w

Page 46 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
in r e l a ti o n t o y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Unless

they

were

to

a s c r i b e t h a t m e e ti n g a s t h e f o r m a l i n te r v i e w - n o n e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l d i d h a v e t h e c h a r a c t e r i s t ic s
to your knowledge of what one would expect in the ordinary sense a job
in t e r v ie w t o e n ta il ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

What I can – what I can

s a y C h a ir is th a t r e c e n tl y t h e r e h a s b e e n a n – a n i n t e r v i e w t o a p p o in t
t h e d i r e c t – t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t io n s . I f th a t i s w h a t
10

you mean that was not done.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That process

was

not

done.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e r e y o u r e q u ir e d t o f il l in a n y

a p p lic a ti o n f o r m s e t t in g o u t y o u r p e r s o n a l h is to r y, y o u r d e t a ils a n d
s i m il a r m a t t e r s ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u d i d h o w e v e r c o m p l e t e a

s e c u r i ty c l e a r a n c e a p p li c a t io n ?
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s I d id .

I completed it

o n ly a f t e r I w a s a p p o i n t e d a n d I w a s i n th e o ff ic e . I th i n k i t w a s a r o u n d
December 2013.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d y o u s i g n a n y o t h e r d o c u m e n t
a p a r t fr o m y o u r s e c u r i t y c l e a r a n c e a p p lic a t io n p r i o r to b e e n e m p l o y e d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I w o u ld h a v e s ig n e d t h e –

Page 47 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
m y e m p l o y m e n t c o n tr a c t a s w e ll a s t h e o a th o f o ffic e b e fo r e J u d g e –
J u d g e P r e s i d e n t M la m b o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u – y o u d i d o f c o u r s e a s y o u s a i d y o u w e r e a s k e d
t o f u r n i s h y o u r C V w h ic h y o u d i d ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u t h e n w o u l d h a v e a r r i v e d a t

t h e N PA d u r i n g O c t o b e r. I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : O f 2 0 1 3 ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That is correct – excuse

m e – t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W h a t d id y o u fi n d o n y o u r

a r r iv a l ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
w e lc o m e fr o m t h e p e r s o n n e l a t N PA .

C h a ir I r e c e iv e d a w a r m

A t o n e s t a g e th e M i n is t e r o f

J u s t ic e – M r R a d e b e – a ls o c a m e to t h e H e a d O ffi c e t o i n tr o d u c e m e
a n d I c a n s a y I w a s w a r m l y r e c e iv e d .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.
CHAIRPERSON:

P r io r t o y o u r a s s u m p ti o n o f d u ty b u t a f te r t h e

a n n o u n c e m e n t o f y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t h a d y o u b e e n i n to u c h w it h t h e
A c ti n g N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u ti o n s w h o w a s a c t i n g b e f o r e
y o u c a m e t o a r r a n g e f o r w h a t w o u l d h a p p e n w h e n y o u a r r iv e d o r t h e r e
w a s n o c o m m u n ic a ti o n ?

Page 48 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Chair

th e r e

was

no

c o m m u n ic a ti o n . I d i d n o t k n o w a n y o n e a t – a t th e – a t th e H e a d O ffic e
e x c e p t t h a t w h e n I a r r i v e d t h e r e I – I i d e n ti f ie d t h e p e r s o n w h o I k n o w
in t h e l e a d e r s h ip a s A d v o c a t e P i n k y M o k g a tl a b e c a u s e s h e – s h e
a tt e n d e d – I t h in k – th e u n i v e r s i t y i n K Z N – in D u r b a n – a n d s h e
q u a li fi e d th e r e a n d s h e p r a c t ic e d th e r e a s a n a d v o c a t e a n d s h e w a s
a ls o m y c o ll e a g u e i n t h e B l a c k L a w y e r s A s s o c ia t io n .

T h a t is w h e r e I

k n e w h e r fr o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B u t to a n s w e r th e q u e s ti o n
there

was

a

time

when

A d v o c a t e K a r e n Va n R e n s b u r g

the
–

–

the

CEO

and

the

Deputy

at

the

CEO

time
that

–
was

M s B e r y l Si s u l u th e y p h o n e d m e a n d t h e y w a n te d t o c o m e a n d m e e t
w i t h m e ju s t t o g iv e m e a b r i e f i n g o f w h a t I w o u l d – I s h o u l d e x p e c t
w h e n I g e t to t h e N PA .

They came down to Durban and we met I

r e m e m b e r i n o n e o f t h e h o t e ls in U m h l a n g a . Th e n w a s w e w e r e i n t h e
m e e ti n g I t h e n s u b s e q u e n t ly g e t – r e c e iv e d a c a l l f r o m a p e r s o n w h o
in tr o d u c e d h e r s e l f a s A d v o c a te J i b a w h o w a s a c t in g w h o w a n te d t o s e e
m e a s w e ll a n d s h e t h e n a p p e a r e d t o b e a r o u n d D u r b a n .
20

h a s til y g o a n d m e e t h e r.

I h a d to

I d i d n o t k n o w h o w – w h e th e r i t w a s a

coincidence that she knew that they had come down the CEO and the
D e p u ty C E O b u t I l a t e r l e a r n t t h a t t h e y – t h e y g o t a h i d i n g b e c a u s e
t h e y c a m e d o w n t o s e e m e fr o m – fr o m A d v o c a t e J i b a .

We met and

w h e n I m e t A d v o c a t e J ib a s h e w a s in t h e p r e s e n c e o f t h e D i r e c t o r o f
P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s in K Z N – A d v o c a t e M o i p o n e N o k o – a n d th e

Page 49 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
g e n tl e m a n w h o I k n e w v e r y w e ll fr o m K Z N i n D u r b a n w h o a t t h e ti m e
w a s C o l o n e l B W M a h l a n g u – C o l o n e l M a h l a n g u – a t t h e ti m e .

We

e x c h a n g e d p l e a s a n tr i e s w i th h i m b e c a u s e h e i s a M a h l a n g u a n d m y l a t e
m o m ’s s u r n a m e i s M a h l a n g u a n d w e u s e d t o c a l l e a c h o t h e r c o u s in s
u n t il h is in v o lv e m e n t i n a l l o f th is t h i n g a n d w h ic h I d i d n o t k n o w t h e n
w e s t o p p e d h a v i n g t h a t r e l a ti o n s h i p .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u d e a l w i th s o m e o f t h o s e

is s u e s i n d u e c o u r s e .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
by step.

P e r h a p s w e s h o u l d ta k e it s t e p

T h e A c ti n g N a t io n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s a t t h e

ti m e o f y o u r a p p o in t m e n t w a s A d v o c a t e J i b a ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W a s th e r e a n y f o r m a l o r e v e n

in f o r m a l h a n d i n g o v e r p r o c e s s w h e r e t h e t w o o f y o u s a t d o w n a n d
e x c h a n g e d d e ta il s o f t h e s t a t e o f t h e N PA , t h e p r o s e c u t io n s c u r r e n t
p o li c i e s a n d th e l ik e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D id y o u i n s tr u c t A d v o c a t e J i b a to
20

c o n d u c t a f o r m a l h a n d o v e r p r o c e s s w it h y o u r a p p o in t m e n t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I d i d C h a ir a n d s h e d i d n o t
c o m p ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n r e l a ti o n t o t h e d a te o f y o u r a s s u m p ti o n o f d u t y

w h e n w o u ld t h a t h a v e b e e n ?

I n a w e e k ’s t i m e o r w h e n y o u a s k e d f o r

h e r t o d o a h a n d o v e r – a w e e k ’s t i m e , t w o w e e k s ’ t i m e o r m u c h l a te r ?

Page 50 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

C h a ir I – th e r e w e r e a l o t

o f t h i n g s h a p p e n i n g C h a ir b e c a u s e w h e n I – I t h in k i t w a s a r o u n d
D e c e m b e r – i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n – D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t t h e ti m e w e k n o w fr o m o th e r
e v i d e n c e a n d th e C h a ir w i ll b e i n fo r m e d p e r h a p s i n r e la t io n t o th e s e
m a t t e r s a n d m o r e d e t a il i n d u e c o u r s e b u t w e h a v e h e a r d t h a t a t t h is
ti m e t h e r e w e r e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s b e i n g c o n d u c t e d i n r e g a r d to t h e c o n d u c t
o f G e n e r a l B o o y s e n i n K w a Z u l u - N a t a l . W h a t h a s b e e n c a l le d t h e C a to
10

M a n o r d e a th s q u a d in v e s t i g a t io n s ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e r e y o u g iv e n a n y i n fo r m a ti o n

a b o u t t h o s e i n v e s ti g a ti o n s o n y o u r a s s u m p ti o n o f o ffic e ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir. I w a s n o t g iv e n
a n y i n fo r m a t i o n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

How did you learn of the

in v e s t i g a t io n s – i f a t a l l?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

A p a r t fr o m th e f a c t t h a t

c o m i n g fr o m D u r b a n I k n e w t h a t t h e r e w a s a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n w h ils t I w a s
20

s t il l in p r i v a t e p r a c t ic e b e c a u s e th e m a t t e r w a s a t th e c o u r t th a t I
a p p e a r fr e q u e n tly. T h a t i s t h e D u r b a n C o u r t b u t w h e n I a s s u m e d o ff ic e
I d i d n o t k n o w w h a t t h e s t a t u s o f th a t m a t t e r w a s a n d I w a s n o t
in f o r m e d a b o u t it . I o n ly l e a r n t a b o u t i t w h e n I r e a d t h e n e w s p a p e r. I
c a n n o t r e m e m b e r w h e r e I w a s c o m in g fr o m b u t I w a s tr a v e ll i n g . I w a s
o n p l a n e – o n t h e p l a n e r e a d i n g if I r e m e m b e r a – t h e B u s i n e s s Ti m e s .

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
Then I saw that there was a decision by Judge Gorven in KZN.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : G - O - R - V- E - N .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

G - O - R - V- E- N ,

yes

–

c r i ti c is i n g t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h A d v o c a t e J ib a h a n d le d h e r s e l f i n th e
m a t t e r b u t o f p a r ti c u l a r c o n c e r n w a s a l s o t h a t t h e N PA w a s a p p e a li n g
t h e d e c is i o n o f J u d g e G o r v e n . Th e n I b e c a m e w o r r ie d b e c a u s e a s t h e
H e a d o f th e i n s t it u ti o n a n d t a k in g i n t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n t h e – th e
s e r io u s n e s s o f t h a t m a t te r I t h o u g h t t h a t i t w a s a p p r o p r i a te t h a t I b e
f a m ili a r is e d w i t h w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g . I i m m e d i a t e ly s u m m o n e d t h e – I
10

t h i n k it w a s A d v o c a t e J i b a – a n d a s k e d h e r t o te ll m e w h a t w a s
h a p p e n in g i n t h e m a t t e r a n d s u m m o n t h e p r o s e c u ti n g t e a m . T h e y c a m e
o v e r t o m y o ff ic e i n P r e t o r ia a n d w e w e n t t h r o u g h t h e e v id e n c e t h e r e
a n d t h e n I g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n - C h a ir I t h in k t h e m a t t e r – I t h i n k t h e y
have spoken about the matter previously but …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O f p a r tic u la r i m p o r t a n c e i s
t h a t w h a t I a l s o f o u n d in t h e m a t te r is th a t w h e n A d v o c a te J i b a
a u t h o r i s e d t h e r a c k e te e r in g c e r t if ic a t e b u t p e r h a p s I m u s t e x p l a i n th a t
t h e r a c k e t e e r i n g c e r t if ic a te c a n o n l y b e a u t h o r is e d b y o n e p e r s o n i n t h e

20

w h o le c o u n tr y t h a t is t h e N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t io n s
h i m s e l f o r h e r s e l f a n d th e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic Pr o s e c u ti o n s
c a n n o t d e le g a te t h a t a u t h o r i t y t o a n y o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t is in t e r m s o f th e N a ti o n a l Pr o s e c u ti n g A u th o r i ty
A c t?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Hm.

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i n te r ms o f t h e l e g is la ti o n ( i n te r v e n e s ) …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : In t e r m s o f t h e le g i s l a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To – t o …
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Racketeering?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

In t e r m s o f t h e le g i s l a ti o n

t o r a c k e t e e r i n g . Th e n in th is m a tt e r w h a t I f o u n d is t h a t A d v o c a t e J i b a
10

a u t h o r i s e d t h e r a c k e t e e r i n g – s h e s i g n e d t h e r a c k e t e e r i n g c e r ti f ic a t e
a n d a u th o r is e d t h e – t h a t – t h a t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n b e c h a r g e d w i t h
r a c k e t e e r i n g w h i c h w a s t h e n t h e s u b je c t m a t t e r i n c o u r t .

Judge –

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n c h a ll e n g e d th e – c h a l l e n g e d t h a t a n d J u d g e G o r v e n
found

in

h is

favour

that

there

was

no

evidence

j u s ti f y i n g

the

a u t h o r i s a t io n o f t h e r a c k e t e e r i n g c h a r g e s a g a in s t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n b u t
w h e n I q u e s t i o n e d A d v o c a te J i b a w h y s h e h a d t o s ig n t h a t o b v i o u s ly
b e a r in g i n m in d t h a t s h e w a s e x e r c is in g h e r a u t h o r i ty a t t h e ti m e b e f o r e
I – I c a m e t h e r e . H e r – h e r r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t s h e r e li e d – i f I q u o t e
h e r s h e s a i d – I r e li e d o n t h e s o c a ll e d e x p e r ts – r a c k e t e e r i n g e x p e r ts
20

a n d th e n I p o i n t e d o u t t o h e r th a t i t i s …
CHAIRPERSON:

W a s s h e p o i n ti n g t o c e r t a i n s p e c i fic p e o p l e a s

experts?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

p e o p l e – t h e p r o s e c u ti o n t e a m w h o w e r e p r e s e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.

Page 53 of 136

She

p o in t e d

at

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e n I s a id to h e r p e r h a p s
it w o u l d h a v e b e e n b e t t e r. I d id n o t e x p e c t – I w o u ld n o t h a v e e x p e c t e d
h e r t o g o t h r o u g h t h e – t h e b u n d le s a n d b u n d l e s – i n f a c t i t w a s th e
b o x e s o f e v id e n c e b u t i f I w e r e h e r I s a id I w o u l d h a v e a s k e d th e m to
p o i n t m e t o t h e r e le v a n t e v i d e n c e t h a t p o in ts t o r a c k e t e e r i n g – t o t h e
r e l e v a n t e v id e n c e t h a t i m p l ic a te s G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a n d t o m y s u r p r is e
w h a t th e y t h e n p r o d u c e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h e n y o u s a y s h e s a i d s h e r e li e d o n …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Someone.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Th e p e r s o n s t h a t s h e r e f e r r e d t o a s e x p e r ts i n

racketeering.
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s s h e s a y in g t h a t i n r e l a ti o n to c o n c l u d i n g w h e t h e r
or not a racketeering charge should be one of the charges against
General Booysen?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

So she was saying as to whether there was enough

e v i d e n c e o r n o t t o j u s ti f y …
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Her …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A c h a r g e o f r a c k e t e e r i n g s h e h a d r e li e d o n th e m ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g ( i n te r v e n e s ) ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir.

Page 54 of 136

Th a t

was

my

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s .

t h e n C h a ir I t h i n k i t

is – i t is o n r e c o r d t h a t w h a t w a s t h e r e in th e – i n t h e f il e – i n t h e
d o c k e t w a s a – a m e r e u n s i g n e d s ta t e m e n t n o t c o m m i s s io n e d fr o m o n e
w i t n e s s w h o le f t t h e c o u n tr y a s in G r e e c e – h e is in G r e e c e - a n d a ls o
t h e o th e r s t a te m e n t s w e r e s ta t e m e n ts o f – w e r e h e a r s a y s t a te m e n ts
w h ic h w e r e n o t o n ly h e a r s a y b u t t w i c e r e m o v e d h e a r s a y s t a te m e n ts a n d
Yo u r W o r s h i p my fe e l i n g w a s th a t t h e r e is n o w a y I t h e n t o o k t h e m
t h r o u g h a n d I e x p l a in e d to t h e m , I c o n v i n c e d t h e m t h a t th e r e is n o w a y
10

t h a t y o u w o u l d s u c c e e d i n a p p e a li n g t h e d e c i s i o n o f J u d g e G o r v a n a n d
I t h e n i n s tr u c t e d th e m t o w i t h d r a w t h e n o t i c e o f a p p e a l w h ic h , t h e y t h e n
did.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a d e a c o m m e n t e a r li e r o n a b o u t w h o h a s p o w e r
t o a u t h o r i s e o r s i g n r a c k e t e e r i n g c e r t i fic a t e o r a u t h o r is e t h a t a p e r s o n
be charged with racketeering and as I understand your evidence you
w e r e s a y i n g t h a t i t ’s o n ly th e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u ti o n s ,
in th e w h o l e c o u n tr y w h o c a n a u th o r is e t h a t a p e r s o n b e c h a r g e d w i t h
r a c k e t e e r i n g , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d t o s h o w t h a t a u t h o r is a ti o n h e o r s h e s i g n s a

c e r t a i n c e r ti f ic a t e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

N o w I t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s a p o in t y o u w a n t e d to m a k e

a b o u t t h a t, I a s s u m e t h a t M s J i b a h a d s i g n e d t h a t c e r t if ic a te i f s h e d i d
s ig n i t a t a t i m e w h e n s h e w a s a c t in g N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
P r o s e c u t io n s ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Th a t is c o r r e c t a n d

b e c a u s e o f – b e c a u s e s h e w a s a c ti n g N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r, s h e h a d t h e
p o w e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

S h e h a d t h e p o w e r.

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

S h e h a d th e p o w e r t o

s a y … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h e r e is n o is s u e a b o u t t h a t ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

T h e is s u e is t h a t , C h a ir,

t h e p o i n t I ’ m m a k i n g is , b e f o r e s h e s i g n e d t h e r a c k e te e r in g c e r t i fi c a t e
s h e h a d t o s a ti s f y h e r s e l f t h a t t h e r e w a s e v id e n c e t o j u s t if y h e r to s i g n
t h e r a c k e te e r i n g c e r ti f ic a t e a n d I f o u n d h e r r e s p o n s e t o m y q u e s ti o n ,
r e a l ly p u z z li n g t h a t s h e c o u l d o n ly r e ly t o t h e – s h e c o u ld o n ly r e ly
u p o n w h a t s h e h a s b e e n – s h e w a s to l d b y th e s o - c a ll e d e x p e r ts , t h e
p r o s e c u t o r s th a t w e r e le a d i n g th e m a t t e r b e c a u s e – I t h i n k t h a t w a s t h e
r e a s o n w h y t h e le g is l a t u r e m a d e t h a t p r o v is i o n t h a t i t m u s t o n ly b e th e
N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c P r o s e c u t io n s , t h a t is t h e – th e N a ti o n a l
D ir e c t o r o f P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s is g iv e n t h e r e s p o n s i b ili t y t o s a t is fy
h i m s e l f o r h e r s e l f t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h e – o f t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s fl o w i n g

20

fr o m b e i n g c h a r g e d w i t h r a c k e te e r in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o p a r t o f th e p o in t y o u a r e m a k i n g is , th e r e m u s t b e

a r e a s o n w h y t h e l e g is l a ti o n s a i d o n ly o n e p e r s o n i n t h e w h o le c o u n t r y
c a n m a k e t h e d e c is i o n w h e t h e r a p e r s o n s h o u l d b e c h a r g e d w i t h
r a c k e t e e r i n g a n d th a t m u s t b e b e c a u s e o f t h e s e r i o u s n e s s o f t h e c h a r g e
o f r a c k e te e r i n g a n d i ts c o n s e q u e n c e s o n a p e r s o n a n d t h a t a l t h o u g h

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
a n y p r o s e c u t o r a n d a n y D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s s h o u ld s a ti s fy
t h e m s e l v e s o r h i ms e lf o r h e r s e l f b e fo r e d e c id i n g o n a n y c h a r g e a g a i n s t
a n y b o d y. T h is o n e is p a r t ic u l a r ly s e r i o u s … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t ’s v e r y s e r i o u s y e s .

A n d t h e N D P P m u s t ta k e c a r e t o s a t is fy h i m s e l f t h a t

t h e r e is – o r h e r s e l f t h a t t h e r e is p r o p e r a n d s u ffi c i e n t e v i d e n c e b e f o r e
a u t h o r i s i n g i t, t h a t ’s p a r t o f th e p o i n t y o u a r e m a k in g .
MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

T h a t ’s t h e p o in t I ’ m

m a k i n g C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u m e n t io n e d to t h e C h a ir, M r

N x a s a n a t h a t d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f th e c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h A d v o c a t e J ib a
y o u s u g g e s t e d th a t s h e m i g h t h a v e c o n s i d e r e d a c t u a ll y e x a m in i n g t h e
e v i d e n c e a n d a s k in g t h e p r o s e c u to r s t o p o i n t o u t th e e v id e n c e to h e r o n
w h ic h s h e b a s e d h e r d e c is io n .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t ’s i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
W h a t – d o y o u r e c a ll h e r

r e s p o n s e t o t h a t i n t e r v e n ti o n b y y o u r s e l f?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

C h a ir h e r r e s p o n s e w a s

t h a t s h e r e li e d o n th e – i f I q u o t e h e r v e r b a t i m , s h e s a i d , “ I r e li e d o n
t h e s e s o - c a ll e d e x p e r ts - r a c k e t e e r i n g e x p e r ts ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

I understand you to say the persons to whom she

r e fe r r e d a s e x p e r t s w e r e i n t h e s a m e r o o m , i n th e m e e t i n g .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

W h a t w a s t h e ir r e s p o n s e w h e n s h e s a i d t h a t , d id

Page 57 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
t h e y s a y a n y t h i n g a b o u t w h e th e r t h e r e w a s e v i d e n c e o r w e r e t h e y
conceding that there wasn’t evidence?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

C h a ir t h e te a m a s f a r a s

I c a n r e c a l l, t h e te a m a p p e a r e d to b e d i v id e d o n t h e is s u e b u t t h e y
w e r e o f t h e o p in i o n , I d o n ’t k n o w, b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e q u i e t , t h e y d id n o t
r e s p o n d to w h e n s h e s a i d s h e r e l i e d o n w h a t t h e y h a d to ld h e r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

But then we went

t h r o u g h t h e m a t te r a n d I m a d e i t c l e a r – i t b e c a m e v e r y c l e a r t h a t th e r e
10

w a s n o e v i d e n c e i n t h e d o c k e t t o j u s ti fy th e r a c k e t e e r i n g , in fa c t, C h a ir,
I w e n t a s fa r a s t o - i f I m a y b e a ll o w e d t h is l a t i tu d e , I w e n t a s f a r a s
t o a d v is e th e m t h a t, y o u s e e I c o m e fr o m D u r b a n a n d m o s t o f th e – a n d
s o m e o f t h e v ic ti m s o f t h e s o - c a ll e d C a t o M a n o r d e a t h s q u a d w e r e
p e o p l e t h a t I k n e w p e r s o n a ll y, I e v e n t o l d t h e m a t t h a t m e e ti n g a n d I
t o l d t h e th a t p e r h a p s I w a s tr y in g t o d i s p l a y a n y f e e l in g t h a t I m i g h t b e
t a k i n g s i d e s , I w a n t e d t o d is p l a y t o th e m t h a t if t h e r e w a s a n y p e r s o n
t h a t i s r e a ll y v e r y c lo s e t o w h a t is h a p p e n i n g i n K Z N , i t ’s m y s e l f o t h e r
t h a n t h e m b e c a u s e e v e n t h e p e o p l e w h o d ie d u n d e r t h e s o - c a ll e d – th e
a l le g e d d e a t h s q u a d , a r e t h e p e o p le t h a t I k n e w a n d I c o u n t e d t o th e m ,

20

t h e n a m e s o f t h o s e p e o p l e th a t I k n e w v e r y w e ll .

I w a s tr y i n g to

c o n v i n c e t h e m a n d I s a i d t o th e m , y o u s e e I u n d e r s ta n d th a t y o u
m u s t n ’t b e c a r r i e d a w a y b y th is r a c k e t e e r i n g c h a r g e s , y o u m a y a l s o
c o n s i d e r t h e p r e d i c a t e c h a r g e s , p r e d i c a t e o ffe n c e s , m u r d e r, a c c e s s o r y
t o m u r d e r, c o n s p ir a c y t o m u r d e r i f t h e r e i s a n y b u t r e a lly i n th e d o c k e t
t h e r e i s n o n e – t h e r e i s n o e v i d e n c e o f r a c k e t e e r i n g a g a in s t G e n e r a l

Page 58 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
B o o y s e n a n d if t h e d o c k e t s t ill r e m a in s t h e s a m e a s I le f t i t , m y v i e w is
s t il l t h e s a m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

S o in s u m m a r y y o u l e a r n t f r o m

s o u r c e s o t h e r t h a n s o u r c e s in t h e N PA t h a t J u d g e G o v e r n h a d is s u e d a
ju d g m e n t i n w h i c h h e w a s c r i tic a l o f t h e N PA s t a n c e i n r e l a t i o n to
charges against General Booysen.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I r e a d fr o m t h e

newspapers.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u r e a d fr o m t h e n e w s p a p e r ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

Yo u t h e n i n s t i tu t e d y o u r o w n

in q u ir ie s w i th in t h e o ff ic e a s D i r e c t o r o f N a ti o n a l P u b li c Pr o s e c u ti o n s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u c a ll e d A d v o c a t e J ib a w h o

h a d s ig n e d t h e r a c k e t e e r in g c e r ti f ic a t e t o a c c o u n t b a s ic a l ly.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u s u g g e s t e d t o h e r t h a t i t

w o u ld h a v e b e e n a p p r o p r i a t e f o r h e r t o s a t is fy h e r s e l f d ir e c t ly b y
20

r e fe r e n c e t o w i tn e s s s ta t e m e n ts a n d o th e r e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e r e w a s
in d e e d a b a s is fo r is s u in g th e c e r ti f ic a t e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u t h e n u n d e r s t o o d fr o m h e r

r e s p o n s e s th a t s h e h a d n ’ t h a d d i r e c t a c c e s s o r r e q u ir e d d ir e c t a c c e s s
t o e v i d e n c e b u t h a d r a th e r r e l ie d o n t h e o p in io n s o f o t h e r s .

Page 59 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

T h a t i s a b s o l u te ly

correct.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Yo u th e n c o n d u c t e d t h e

e x e r c is e y o u r s e l f .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d y o u c a m e t o a d i ff e r e n t

conclusion.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Th a t i s s o s ir.

Yo u s e e s o m e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e c o m e

b e f o r e m e h a v e s u g g e s t e d th a t w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d in s o m e o f th e
c a s e s is th a t p e o p l e w h o w e r e fi g h t i n g c o r r u p t io n w e r e b e i n g c h a r g e d
b y t h e N PA w i t h v a r io u s c r i m e s in c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e r e w a s n o
e v i d e n c e t o s u p p o r t t h o s e c r i m e s . T h e s u g g e s ti o n b e in g t h a t t h e y a r e
b e i n g t h e d e c i s i o n s t o c h a r g e c e r t a i n p e o p le m a y h a v e b e e n in f lu e n c e d
b y r e a s o n s o th e r t h a n l e g i ti m a t e le g a l r e a s o n s . N o w I h a v e t o a s k y o u
t h is q u e s t i o n , w e r e y o u - d i d t h e p e r s o n s th a t M s J i b a r e f e r r e d t o a s
e x p e r t s i n r a c k e t e e r i n g , d i d th e y a t a n y s t a g e s a y t o y o u , h e r e a r e
s o m e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h s u p p o r te d o u r o p i n i o n t h a t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n
s h o u l d b e c h a r g e d , e i th e r o n t h a t d a y a t t h e m e e ti n g o r a t a n y s t a g e

20

a ft e r w a r d s , d i d t h e y e v e r s a y t o y o u , n o , n o , n o o u r d e c i s i o n o r
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n to th e a c ti n g N D P P w a s ju s t i fi e d b e c a u s e o f t h is a n d
t h a t a n d th a t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

C h a ir I d i d a s k t h e m to

p r o d u c e a t le a s t e v id e n c e – a t l e a s t p r i m a fa c i e e v i d e n c e a g a in s t
G e n e r a l B o o y s e n b u t th e y th e n r e f e r r e d t o t h e s t a t e m e n t o f – I d o n ’ t

Page 60 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
k n o w i f I m a y m e n t io n th e w i t n e s s ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I th in k y o u m a y, I t h i n k w e m a y h a v e b e e n t o l d – I

think we have been told yes.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h e y t h e n p r o d u c e d th e

s t a te m e n t o f a M r D a n i k u s h e w a s a G r e e k n a t i o n a l , i t w a s a n u n s ig n e d
s t a te m e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

W o n ’ t y o u s p e ll th a t n a m e

please?
MR MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:
10

I t ’s D - a - n - i - k - u - s ,

D a n ik u s , C h a ir t h a t w a s a n u n s i g n e d s t a t e m e n t , t h e n w h e n I a s k e d fo r
a n y s t a te m e n t i m p lic a ti n g G e n e r a l B o o y s e n t h e y t h e n p r o d u c e d a
s t a te m e n t , I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e n a m e b u t I w i ll tr y t o r e c o l le c t i t w a s
a p e r s o n w h o a p p a r e n tly w a s a s e c u r it y g u a r d f o r a S t a n g e r Ta x i
A s s o c ia t io n w h o , i n h is s ta t e m e n t , w a s a ll e g i n g th a t a Mr M h l o n g o w h o
w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e e x e c u t iv e c o m m i t te e o f S t a n g e r Ta x i As s o c i a ti o n
w a s – h a d c o ll e c t e d m o n i e s fr o m t h e A s s o c ia t io n a n d t o ld t h e
A s s o c ia t io n i n t h i s s e c u r i ty g u a r d ’s p r e s e n c e

that , that money was

r e q u ir e d b y th e G e n e r a l a n d th a t h e w a s p r e s e n t w h e n M h l o n g o a n d th e
C h a ir p e r s o n a t th e t i m e w a s M r Z o n d i o f t h e S t a n g e r Ta x i A s s o c ia t io n
20

w e n t t o m e e t w it h t h e G e n e r a l a t t h e g a t e w a y.

C h a ir t h a t i s t h e

General it doesn’t even describe that it was General Booysen, that is
t h e p r o b l e m b u t h e d o e s n ’t s a y t h a t h e o v e r h e a r d t h e c o n v e r s a t io n
b e t w e e n e v e n t h a t G e n e r a l a n d M h lo n g o , t h a t w a s t h e o n ly e v i d e n c e
t h a t th e y s a id t h a t i t i m p lic a t e d G e n e r a l B o o y s e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h i s p e r s o n w h o h a d s ig n e d th is s ta t e m e n t, y o u

Page 61 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
s a y h e w a s a s e c u r i ty g u a r d s i m p l y s a i d , h e w a s p r e s e n t w h e n
s o m e b o d y c o ll e c t e d m o n e y a n d s a i d i t w a s fo r a c e r t a i n G e n e r a l o r t h e
G e n e r a l …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

W a n t e d t h e m o n e y.

W a n t e d th e m o n e y y e s - w a n t e d b y t h e G e n e r a l .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

H e d i d n o t m e n t io n w h o t h e G e n e r a l w a s is

t h a t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

No.

Ye s a n d th a t h e w a s p r e s e n t a ls o – o r th a t t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e Ta x i A s s o c ia t io n to o k i t t o m e e t w i th t h e G e n e r a l
a n d t h a t h e w a s p r e s e n t w h e n h e m e t w i t h t h e G e n e r a l o r t h a t d id n ’t
c o m e o u t c l e a r ly ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I t d i d n ’ t c o m e o u t c le a r

b u t I th in k h e w a s i n t h e v e h ic le a s th e V I P p r o t e c t io n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t a ls o h e d i d n ’ t s a y w h o th e G e n e r a l w a s ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Are those the only two documents they produced?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I n th a t m e e t i n g .

I n M s J i b a ’s p r e s e n c e ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

At the time yes.

A n d th e y d i d t h a t i n th a t m e e ti n g ?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I n M s J i b a ’s p r e s e n c e .

A n d Ms J ib a d i d n ’ t p o i n t t o a n y th i n g e ls e s h e m ig h t

h a v e b e e n to l d o r s h o w n in r e g a r d t o w h a t e v i d e n c e t h e r e w a s .

Page 62 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

No.

O k a y th a n k y o u .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

P e r h a p s C h a ir, th a t i s w h y

if I f o l l o w t h e m a t t e r, I t h i n k w h e n i t c a m e b e fo r e y o u , i f I ’ m n o t
m is t a k e n , I th i n k th a t is w h y th e n s u b s e q u e n t I h e a r d t h a t A d v o c a te
S h a u n A b r a h a ms r e - i n s t a t e d th e c h a r g e s , b u t I u n d e r s ta n d th a t p e o p l e
w e r e s e n t t o G r e e c e t o o b t a i n a s t a t e m e n t, a g a in I ’ m to l d t h a t , t h a t
s t a te m e n t i s w r i t te n i n G r e e c e a n d i t w a s t r a n s l a t e d b y s o m e o n e h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

N o I t h i n k i t ’s i m p o r ta n t t h a t , w h il e y o u a r e h e r e , w e

g e t a s m u c h e v i d e n c e a s y o u h a v e t o i n q u ir e i n t o t h e s e t h i n g s – t h e s e
m a t t e r s b e c a u s e it ’s q u i te a s e r io u s s u g g e s t io n o r a l le g a t i o n w h e n it i s
s a i d th a t t h e N PA o r c e r ta in p e o p l e w i th in t h e N PA a b u s e d t h e ir p o w e r s
t o c h a r g e p e o p l e w h o s h o u ld – a g a i n s t w h o m t h e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e
a n d t h a t t h e y w e r e m o t iv a t e d b y c e r t a i n i ll e g i ti m a t e c o n s id e r a ti o n s
b e c a u s e i f th e r e is n o e v i d e n c e t o s u p p o r t t h o s e a l l e g a ti o n s a g a i n s t
t h o s e p e o p l e o r a g a i n s t t h e N PA t h e n le t u s k n o w b u t i f th e r e is
e v i d e n c e t h e n l e t u s k n o w, t h e n a ti o n d e s e r v e s t o k n o w e x a c tl y w h a t
t h e p o s i ti o n i s b e c a u s e th e N PA is a v e r y i m p o r t a n t i n s t it u ti o n in th e
c o u n tr y a n d i n t h e f i g h t a g a in s t c r i m e a n d t h e n a ti o n n e e d s t o k n o w

20

e x a c tl y w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n is a n d i f t h e r e a r e p e o p l e w h o d i d t h a t , w e
m u s t k n o w i f t h e r e is e v i d e n c e t h a t s h o w s t h a t th a t ’s w h a t t h e y d i d a n d
t h e y w il l c o m e b e fo r e t h e C o m m is s i o n , p u t t h e ir s i d e o f t h e s to r y a n d
t h e C o m m i s s io n w ill m a k e d e c i s i o n s a n d f in d i n g s i n d u e c o u r s e a n d i t
w a s i m p o r ta n t t h a t s o m e b o d y li k e y o u c o m e s b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s i o n
b e c a u s e y o u w e r e – f o r a c e r ta in p e r io d o f t i m e o c c u p y in g t h is v e r y

Page 63 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
i m p o r t a n t p o s i ti o n o f N D P P a n d y o u l e f t u n d e r c e r t a i n c ir c u m s ta n c e s
a n d in t h e p u b li c d o m a i n th e r e a r e a l l k in d s o f t h i n g s th a t a r e s a i d b u t
a ls o th e r e a r e j u d g e m e n t , C o u r t j u d g e m e n ts t h a t h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t.
I t’s i m p o r t a n t t h a t s o m e b o d y lik e y o u c o m e s a n d t e l ls th e C o m m is s i o n
e x a c tl y w h a t y o u k n o w a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d w h il e y o u w e r e N D P P s o
t h a t t h e C o m m i s s io n c a n h a v e a s f u l l a p ic tu r e a s p o s s i b l e b e f o r e , in
d u e c o u r s e , i t m a k e s fi n d i n g s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s I a p p r e c ia t e th a t .

S ir – C h a ir c a n I m a k e a ls o t h is o b s e r v a ti o n b e c a u s e – s o th a t m y
10

e v i d e n c e h e r e is n o t t a k e n o u t o f c o n t e x t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I h a v e n ’t s u g g e s t e d t h a t

t h e r e w a s n o e v i d e n c e a t a ll a g a in s t G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ’s c o - a c c u s e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA :

T h a t – ju s t t o m a k e t h a t

o n e v e r y c l e a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

MR

SANDILE

MXOLISI

OLIVER

NXASANA:

Ye s

because…(intervention).
20

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u a r e s a y i n g w it h r e g a r d t o t h e … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

To t h e r a c k e te e r in g

c h a r g e a g a in s t B o o y s e n , C h a ir t h e r e w a s n o t a s h r e d o f e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u s a y i n g a n y t h i n g i n r e g a r d t o a n y o th e r

c h a r g e s I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r t h a t w a s t h e o n ly c h a r g e h e w a s
f a c i n g , a r e y o u s a y i n g a n y t h i n g a b o u t a n y o th e r c h a r g e s h e m a y h a v e

Page 64 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
b e e n f a c i n g o t h e r th a n t h e r a c k e t e e r i n g c h a r g e , I j u s t c a n ’t r e m e m b e r i f
it w a s j u s t r a c k e t e e r i n g c h a r g e s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

B e c a u s e i n th e m a i n

C h a ir, p e r h a p s ju s t to u n p a c k t h is m a t t e r C h a ir, y o u k n o w I e v e n
s u g g e s t e d C h a ir t h a t i f I w a s p r o s e c u ti n g t h a t m a t t e r o r d ir e c ti n g t h a t
m a t t e r I w a s g o i n g t o – I s a i d t o th e m , y o u c o u l d h a v e a p p r o a c h e d o n e
of the co-accused and turn him a 204 witness because most of the
e v i d e n c e I s a id t o th e m , y o u k n o w, I’ m b a s e d i n D u r b a n a n d c o m e f r o m
D u r b a n a n d a l l t h a t y o u a r e t e l li n g m e h e r e is w h a t is i n t h e p u b l ic
10

domain in Durban.

W e h e a r a lo t o f th i n g s a b o u t C a t o M a n o r a t t h e

ti m e a n d I t o l d t h e m t h a t w e w o u l d h e a r t h a t w h e n t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e
C a t o M a n o r U n i t h a d k il le d a p e r s o n , th e y w o u l d p l a n t a fir e a r m a n d
t h e n G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w o u l d c o m e a n d t a k e o v e r t h e s c e n e , s o t o s a y.
T h o s e w e r e t h e a ll e g a ti o n s b u t t h e n I s a i d to t h e m , t h e s e a r e j u s t
a l le g a ti o n s a n d w it h o u t t h e

e v i d e n c e in

th e

docket you cannot

p r o s e c u t e b e c a u s e w e d o n ’ t p r o s e c u te w i t h e m o t i o n s a n d I te ll y o u t h is
is w h a t I w o u l d a l s o h e a r a b o u t t h e C a t o M a n o r U n i t a n d C h a ir, th e r e
w a s a l s o e v i d e n c e a ls o , in th e – t h e r e w e r e a l le g a ti o n s , n o t e v i d e n c e i n
t h e d o c k e t t h a t o n e m e m b e r o f t h e C a t o M a n o r U n i t s h o t a n d k ill e d a
20

t e e n a g e r a t , I th in k , E m p a n g e n i ( in d is ti n c t ) w h e n th e y w e r e l o o k i n g f o r
a s u s p e c t , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e s u s p e c t w a s r e l a te d to th is y o u n g
m a n b u t I t h in k th e y r e c k l e s s l y o p e n e d fi r e a n d k il le d a n i n n o c e n t
young man.

T h a t ’s a s i m p l e in v e s ti g a ti o n , I’ v e n e v e r b e e n a n

in v e s t i g a t o r i n m y l if e b u t , I m e a n y o u c a n t a k e – c o l le c t e v id e n c e ,
m a tc h c a r tr id g e s , s p e n t c a r tr id g e s , ta k e t h e fir e a r m s f o r b a l lis t ic

Page 65 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
e x a m in a ti o n p u r p o s e s a n d li n k th e p e r s o n o r e v e n u s e th e a d o p t io n o f
c o m m o n p u r p o s e t o c h a r g e w h o e v e r, th a t is w h y I p o i n t e d o u t t o t h e m
t h a t th e y m u s t n ’t g e t c a r r i e d a w a y w i th t h is r a c k e te e r in g c h a r g e b u t o f
p a r t ic u l a r i m p o r ta n c e w h ic h I b r o u g h t to t h e ir a t te n ti o n t h a t , i f y o u w a n t
t o c h a r g e a p e r s o n w i t h r a c k e t e e r i n g y o u h a v e t o p r o v e th a t th e r e h a s
b e e n a p a t t e r n a n d th is p a t t e r n h a s b e e n c o n ti n u o u s ly h a p p e n i n g f o r a
p a r t ic u l a r p e r i o d a n d I s a i d , i f th e y w a n t t o a l l e g e th a t C a t o M a n o r a s
t h e u n i t w h ic h w a s b a s e d a t C a t o M a n o r, C h a ir k n o w s w h e r e C a t o
M a n o r is , i n D u r b a n , a n d my d i ff ic u l ty w a s t h a t a t t h e ti m e G e n e r a l
10

Booysen was not even a member of that unit because he was the head
o f t h e H a w k s i n D u r b a n b a s e d , t h e n o w c a l l e d ( in d is ti n c t) b u il d i n g i n
D u r b a n a n d th e n t o a l le g e t h a t h e w a s m a n a g i n g t h e e n t e r p r i s e w h e n
h e w a s b a s e d th e r e , t h e y w e r e n o t g o i n g t o s u c c e e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

J u s t to e x p l a i n t h e r e f e r e n c e

y o u m a d e t o S e c ti o n 2 0 4 , S e c t i o n 2 0 4 i s a S e c ti o n o f t h e C r i mi n a l
P r o c e d u r e Ac t , I u n d e r s t a n d , t h a t i s u s e d to e n a b l e a c o - a c c u s e d to
a s s is t t h e p r o s e c u ti o n a n d p e r h a p s r e c e iv e in d e m n i t y in t h e C o u r t ’s
d is c r e ti o n a s a r e s u l t .
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A n d t h a t ’s w h a t y o u w e r e

r e fe r r i n g t o .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That is what I was

r e fe r r i n g t o .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Earlier as having been as step

Page 66 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
that could and perhaps should have been taken.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir,

t h a t i s w h a t I w a s s u g g e s ti n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e t i m e a t w h ic h y o u t o o k

o ffic e , O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 w a s a ti m e w h e n th e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t Z u m a w a s
s t il l b e i n g i n v e s ti g a te d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir

Were you briefed on the status

o f t h a t in v e s ti g a t i o n ?
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

N o t a t a ll C h a ir, i n fa c t

C h a ir I’ v e n e v e r e v e n to u c h e d t h e d o c k e t r e la t in g t o th e f o r m e r
President Jacob Zuma.

I u n d e r s ta n d th a t t h e d o c k e t w a s s t il l in t h e

p o s s e s s i o n o f A d v o c a t e J i b a a n d Mr H o f m e y r, i f I’ m n o t m is t a k e n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

A lr i g h t .

W a s – is it c o r r e c t th a t t h e i n v e s t i g a t io n w a s s t ill

g o i n g o n a t t h a t ti m e b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r in 2 0 0 9 c h a r g e s w e r e
withdrawn,

did

th e

in v e s ti g a t io n

c o n ti n u e

a f te r

th e y

had

been

withdrawn?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

C h a ir m y r e s p o n s e f o r

t h e q u e s ti o n o f th e i n v e s ti g a t i o n , I u n d e r s t a n d q u it e c l e a r l y th a t t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n s h a d c e a s e d t o – b y th e n b u t I u n d e r s t a n d th a t th e m a tt e r
w a s p r e t ty m u c h v e r y a li v e b e c a u s e th e r e w e r e c h a ll e n g e s a t t h e t i m e .
T h e n m y r e s p o n s e is i n r e g a r d t o th a t , t h a t t h e r e w e r e p e o p l e s ti ll
c h a l le n g i n g t h e d e c is i o n to w i t h d r a w c h a r g e s a g a i n s t th e fo r m e r
President Jacob Zuma.

Page 67 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
CHAIRPERSON:
there

were

S o in o th e r w o r d s y o u a r e n o t n e c e s s a r il y s a y i n g
in v e s ti g a t o r s

who

were

s ti ll

continuing

to

in v e s t i g a t e … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no.

That you do not know?

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

N o I’ m n o t – I d o n ’ t k n o w

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a y o u s i m p l y k n o w th a t th e m a t te r … ( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

Th e r e w e r e C o u r t

c h a l le n g e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e w e r e C o u r t c h a ll e n g e s r e l a ti n g t o t h e d r o p p i n g

of the charges.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y.

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s p e r h a p s m y q u e s t io n s h o u l d

h a v e b e e n r e - p h r a s e d to m o r e a c c u r a t e ly r e f le c t w h a t y o u s a y i n
p a r a g r a p h 2 9 Mr N x a s a n a w h e n y o u s a y y o u w e r e n o t b r i e fe d o n t h e
s t a tu s o f th e in v e s ti g a t io n r a t h e r o n w h e th e r t h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n i ts e lf w a s
c o n ti n u i n g .
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

R ig h t i f w e c a n m o v e o n t h e n

p l e a s e t o t h e e v e n ts le a d i n g u p t o y o u r o w n s u s p e n s io n . D u r i n g y o u r
fir s t y e a r in o ff ic e , i t w a s n o t m u c h m o r e t h a n a f ir s t y e a r i n o ffic e , b u t
d u r i n g t h a t y e a r, d i d y o u l e a r n a n y t h in g a b o u t t h e a t ti t u d e t o w a r d s y o u
and the conduct towards you on the part of Advocates Jima and

Page 68 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
M g w e b i , t h a t’s L a u r e n c e M g w e b i a n d N o m g c o b o J i b a ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s C h a ir, C h a ir a s I

p o i n t e d o u t t h a t I w a s a p p o in t e d o n t h e 3 1 s t o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 w i th e ffe c t
fr o m t h e 1 s t o f O c to b e r 2 0 1 3 . In a s e n s e i t m e a n s t h a t I h a d t h i s w h o l e
m o n th o f S e p t e m b e r s t il l i n D u r b a n t o w r a p u p b e f o r e I t o o k o ff ic e .
C h a ir I s t a r t e d t o l e a r n t h a t d u r i n g t h a t p e r i o d o f S e p t e m b e r, b e c a u s e
t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s m a d e b y t h e Pr e s i d e n t th a t , th e r e w e r e p e o p l e
t h a t w e r e r u n n in g a r o u n d , d r iv i n g a r o u n d i n t h e t o w n s h i p w h e r e I g r e w
u p f r o m t h a t is U m la z i in m y a r e a a n d t h a t th e s e p e o p le , m a n y p e o p l e
10

w e r e s t o p p in g p e o p l e , a s k i n g t h e m a b o u t m e , a b o u t m y h is to r y
e s p e c i a l ly a b o u t m y i n v o l v e m e n t in a m a tt e r t h a t w a s p u b li c is e d o f
m u r d e r a r o u n d 1 9 8 5 . I t d id n ’ t p u z z l e m e a t fi r s t b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t th a t
it w a s p a r t o f th e v e t t in g p r o c e s s b u t th i s th in g g a i n e d i t s m o m e n t u m
u n t il I g o t to t h e o ff ic e . I th e n l e a r n t t h e r e w e r e m e m b e r s w it h in N PA
w h o w e r e v e r y m u c h r e s p o n s i b le a ls o f o r th a t .

I t h e n s u b s e q u e n tl y

r e c e i v e d u n s o li c i t e d s ta t e m e n t i n th e f o r m o f a n a ff i d a v i t fr o m o n e
m e m b e r o f t h e N PA b y th e n a m e o f Te r r e n c e J o u b e r t w o w a s , a t t h e
ti m e , I d o n ’ t k n o w if h e s t ill is , a r i s k s p e c ia lis t a t N PA h e w a s b a s e d i n
D u r b a n . H e s e n t m e a n e m a il a n d i n t h e e m a il t h e r e w a s a n a ffi d a v it
20

t h a t a ffi d a v it f o r m s p a r t o f th e b u n d le h e r e w h e r e h e th e n – w h e r e h e
w a s b a s i c a lly t e ll in g m e t h a t t h e r e w a s a c a m p a ig n b y A d v o c a t e J i b a
t h a t – to d i g t h e d ir t a b o u t m e s o t h a t th e i n te n ti o n , t h e w h o l e p u r p o s e
w a s t o e m b a r r a s s m e s o t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w il l th e n r e m o v e m e a s t h e
N a t io n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b lic P r o s e c u t io n s a n d s h e w o u l d t h e n s t a n d a
c h a n c e o f b e i n g c o n s id e r e d t o e it h e r c o n t i n u e to a c t o r to b e a p p o i n t e d

Page 69 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
p e r m a n e n tly, i t is t h e r e b u t i t a ls o – th is a ffi d a v i t – i n th is a ffi d a v it h e
a ls o s t a t e s t h a t t h e r e w e r e p o l ic e – t w o p o li c e m e m b e r s t h a t w e r e
a s s ig n e d t o t h e D P P, th a t ’s D e p u t y – D ir e c t o r o f Pr o s e c u ti o n s i n K Z N ,
A d v o c a t e N o k o w h o w a s s t a ti o n e d t h e r e a t h is o ffi c e w h o h a d r e c e iv e d
v e h ic l e s f r o m t h e p r o v in c i a l o ffic e a t th e t i m e t h e C o m m is s i o n e r w a s –
C o m m i s s i o n e r M m a m o n n y e N g o b e n i a n d t h a t th o s e p e o p l e th a t w e r e
t h e r e , t h o s e t w o g e n tl e m e n t h e y w e r e t h e n ta s k e d w i t h g o i n g a r o u n d
fi n d i n g a n y d ir t a b o u t m e b u t h e a ls o w e n t a s f a r a s r e c o r d i n g t h is
Colonel Mahlongo.
10

Ye s t e r d a y I tr i e d t o g e t t h is r e c o r d i n g , I o n ly

m a n a g e d t o g e t i t v e r y l a te b e c a u s e i t h a p p e n e d i n – I t h i n k 2 0 1 3 o r
2 0 1 4 w h e r e b a s ic a l ly I c o u l d h e a r th e v o i c e o f C o l o n e l M a h lo n g o a n d
Te r r e n c e J o u b e r t , J o u b e r t w a s p l a y i n g a l o n g .

H e d id n o t – C o lo n e l

M h lo n g o d i d n o t k n o w t h a t h e w a s r e c o r d i n g h i m .

H e w a s b a s ic a l ly

s a y in g t h a t J ib a h a d m a n d a t e d h i m to g o a b o u t d ig g in g d ir t a b o u t m e .
T h e y w e n t s o f a r a s t o t h a t r e c o r d i n g s a y in g t h a t I th i n k Te r e n c e
J o u b e r t h a d u n d e r ta k e n to h o o k h i m u p w i t h p e o p le fr o m t h e R o a d
A c c id e n t F u n d

because

the

a l l e g a ti o n

was

that because

I was

p r a c ti s i n g a s a n a tt o r n e y t h e y w e r e a l l e g i n g th a t I h a d e m b e z z le d
c li e n t s m o n i e s w h e n I h a n d l e d th e R o a d A c c i d e n t F u n d c l a i m s a n d a l s o
20

I d o n o t k n o w h o w t h e y g o t i t fr o m a n d i t is tr u e t h a t m y w i f e a t s o m e
s t a g e w a s a ls o – w a s e m p lo y e d a t t h e – a t t h e R o a d A c c id e n t F u n d
o ffic e i n D u r b a n . A l l o f t h a t i t i s th e r e t h a t m y w i f e w a s a l s o e m p l o y e d
t h e r e a n d t h a t Te r e n c e J o u b e r t w a s g o i n g t o h o o k h i m u p w i t h t h e
g e n tl e m a n a t R o a d Ac c i d e n t F u n d s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d g i v e t h e m
e v i d e n c e i m p lic a ti n g m e i n a ll o f th a t .

T h e y a ls o r e f e r in t h e m u r d e r

Page 70 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
c h a r g e t h a t Te r e n c e J o u b e r t c o u ld h e a r h i m s a y i n g t h a t t h a t m u r d e r
c h a r g e t h a t y o u h a v e i n y o u r p o s i ti o n r e f e r r i n g t o C o lo n e l M h l o n g o th a t
w a s – it is th e r e – i t is t h e r e I h a v e it in t h e r e c o r d h e r e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Because these are serious

a l le g a ti o n s p e r h a p s w e s h o u l d d o y o u t h e fa v o u r o f a ll o w i n g to g o
t h r o u g h y o u r e v id e n c e in t h e s e q u e n c e y o u s e t tl e d i t i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t.
Yo u ta lk e d a b o u t p e o p l e i n U ml a z i i n f o r m in g y o u .
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That is…
ADV
10

PA U L

JOSEPH

PRETORIUS

SC:

Th is

was

before

your

a p p o i n t m e n t a c t u a l ly b e c a m e c o n fir m e d o r …
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I t w a s c o n f ir m e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : B e f o r e y o u t o o k o ffi c e .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s , y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A f t e r i ts c o n fir m a t i o n b u t b e fo r e
y o u to o k o ff ic e t r y i n g to a s y o u p u t i t d i g u p in f o r m a t io n a b o u t y o u r
p a s t.
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : T h a t is th e o n e s e t o f fa c ts t h a t
y o u p la c e b e fo r e th e C h a ir.

20

ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That is correct.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Yo u a ls o m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r i n

y o u r e v i d e n c e t h e a p p r o a c h to y o u o f t w o N PA o ffi c i a l s .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

N o w w h a t d i d t h e y te ll y o u ?

T h a t is i n p a r a g r a p h 3 3 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t .

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is t h e o n e th a t I a m
r e fe r r i n g t o . T h a t a p p r o a c h I m e a n t t h e – t h e a ffi d a v it t h a t I r e c e iv e d
fr o m M r Te r e n c e J o u b e r t.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d th e o t h e r p e r s o n ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A: The other person was Ms
Q u e e n M l o n g o w h o w a s s t a ti o n e d a t t h e – t h e N PA o ff ic e s a t t a c h e d t o
the Asset Forfeiture Unit in Durban.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W h a t d id s h e t e ll y o u ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: She told me that Colonel
10

M g lo n g o w a s b r a g g i n g s a y i n g t h a t – in fa c t s h e a l s o h a d r e c o r d e d h i m
u n f o r t u n a t e ly w e h a v e l o s t t h e p h o n e s n o w a n d t h e r e c o r d in g s b u t I
lis t e n e d t o t h e r e c o r d i n g m y s e l f . A n d i n t h a t r e c o r d i n g h e w a s b r a g g in g
t h a t h e c la i m e d t o k n o w m e v e r y w e ll a n d h e m a d e a l o t o f fa ls e
a l le g a ti o n s a b o u t m e in t h a t r e c o r d i n g b u t o f i m p o r t a n c e i s t h a t h e w a s
s a y in g t h a t h e h a d b e e n p r o mi s e d t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e B r i g a d i e r – h e
w a s a c c u s i n g m e o f w a n ti n g t o c h a r g e G e n e r a l M d l u l i a n d th a t G e n e r a l
M d lu li i f h e is n o t c h a r g e d G e n e r a l M d l u li w a s g o i n g t o m a k e s u r e t h a t
h e is a p p o i n te d a s th e – h e w a s g o i n g t o b e p r o m o t e d a s t h e B r i g a d i e r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

20

Let us just take that slowly

b e c a u s e t h a t i s a lo t o f in f o r m a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d Mr Pr e t o r i u s j u s t o n e l i n e .
A t t h e t i m e g o i n g b a c k to M r J o u b e r t ’s a ffi d a v i t – a t th e ti m e y o u g o t
t h a t a ffi d a v i t w a s Mr J o u b e r t k n o w n t o y o u ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
known to me.

Page 72 of 136

C h a ir n o h e w a s n o t

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u r e c e i v e d a n a ff id a v i t fr o m s o m e b o d y th a t y o u
h a d n e v e r m e t , t h a t y o u d id n o t k n o w ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXA SANA:

Ye s b u t h e is a n

e m p l o y e e o f t h e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d m y d e t a ils a r e t h e r e
for them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:
10

B e c a u s e I r e c e iv e d o n

the …
CHAIRPERSON: On the email.
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O ffi c i a l N PA e m a il .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, Th a n k y o u .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. S o y o u h a v e s a i d i n y o u r
s t a te m e n t t h a t a l m o s t i m m e d ia t e l y a ft e r y o u w e r e a p p o i n t e d tw o N PA
o ffic i a ls a p p r o a c h e d y o u .

W e w i ll d e a l w it h M r J o u b e r t i n a m o m e n t .

The other person how do you spell her name?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

It is Queen. Queen

M h lo n g o . M h lo n g o i t is M h lo n g o .
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ngo.

Right.

Did she tell you

a n y th in g a b o u t A d v o c a t e s J i b a a n d M w e b e ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : C h a ir e x c e p t t h a t – I j u s t
s e e i f I c a n r e fr e s h m y m e m o r y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
p a r a g r a p h 3 3 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t.

Page 73 of 136

Ye s p le a s e d o .

Look at

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

Ye s , Ye s C h a ir th is i s –

t h a t is t h e – t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t I h a v e j u s t g iv e n t h a t p a r a g r a p h 3 3 t a l k s
t o th a t a b o u t t h e p l o t to o u s t m e . T h a t C o l o n e l M h lo n g o w a s t h e m a i n
p e r s o n t h a t w a s u s e d b y A d v o c a t e J i b a t o r u n t h e c o m p a ig n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d A d v o c a te M w e b e ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B o th o f t h e m C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

H m y o u t a lk a b o u t t w o o ffi c i a l s o f t h e N PA o n e o f

t h e m I u n d e r s t a n d t o h a v e b e e n Mr J o u b e r t .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t .

W a s t h e o th e r o n e t h e

p e r s o n t h a t y o u r e f e r t o a s Q u e e n M h lo g o ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

She was – she was

a tt a c h e d to th e A s s e t F o r f e i t u r e U n i t b a s e d in D u r b a n a t th e t i m e . B u t
s h e is n o l o n g e r w i th t h e N PA . S h e is th e p r i v a t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : S e c t o r n o w.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : D i d t h e y a p p r o a c h y o u t o g e t h e r
20

a s a t e a m o r d i d t h e y a p p r o a c h y o u s e p a r a t e ly ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

No independent of each

o th e r C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th e s e w e r e tw o s e p a r a te

in d e p e n d e n t …
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Separate incidents.

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A p p r o a c h e s t o y o u ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r o u n d a b o u t th e s a m e ti m e ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

Ar o u n d a b o u t t h e s a m e

ti m e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

D u r i n g t h e m o n th o f S e p te m b e r b e fo r e y o u – n o , n o

a ft e r y o u h a d c o m m e n c e d y o u r d u ti e s a s N D P P ?
ADV

MXOLISI

SANDILE

OLIVER

NXA SANA:

Ye s

after

I

had

c o m m e n c e d m y d u ti e s y e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay ja.
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d C h a ir I t h in k I m u s t
a ls o m e n ti o n t h a t b o th – I t h i n k t h e y w e r e – Te r e n c e J o u b e r t a n d –
a l t h o u g h h e w a s a R i s k O ffi c e r S p e c i a l is t . I th in k h is o ffi c e w a s a ls o i n
t h e s a m e b u il d i n g a s t h e o ffi c e w h e r e – o f t h e A s s e t Fo r f e it u r e U n it o f
t h e N PA in D u r b a n . T h a t i s t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e Ms Q u e e n M h lo n g o …
20

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s w o r k i n g [ i n d is ti n c t ]
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s i t is – y e s – i t – a t –
is i t 1 8 5 B u i ld i n g , S o u th e r n L i fe B u il d in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .

Page 75 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A l r ig h t .

These approaches to

y o u a t w h o s e in s ta n c e w e r e t h e y m a d e ? D i d y o u c a l l o n t h e m to s p e a k
t o y o u ? D id t h e y c o m e o f t h e ir o w n a c c o r d ? W h a t w a s t h e c a s e ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

No Chair they came of

t h e ir o w n a c c o r d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d s e p a r a t e ly ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d s e p a r a t e l y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : I n f a c t C h a ir w h a t I h a v e
10

n o t m e n ti o n e d h e r e i n th e a ffi d a v i t is I h a v e r e f e r r e d e a r li e r t o a n
in c i d e n t w h e n I s a id I w a s w a r m l y w e lc o m e d a t t h e N PA a n d d u r i n g t h a t
– I r e f e r r e d t o a – t o t h e d a y w h e n M in is t e r R a d a b e c a m e to i n tr o d u c e
m e . I g a v e a s p e e c h a ls o t h e r e . W e w e r e a t t h e a u d it o r i u m . C h a ir I
t h e n s a id – I r e m e m b e r s a y in g t h a t M i n is t e r I a m n o – N D P P h a s e v e r
fi n i s h e d h is t e r m o f o ff ic e a n d I c a n a s s u r e y o u t h a t I w i ll fi n is h m y t e r m
o f o ffic e . In fa c t th e N PA A c t e v e n p e r m i t s m e t o t a k e a n e x tr a p e r i o d
o f n o t m o r e th a n t w o y e a r s a n d I a m s u r e t h a t I w il l b e h e r e f o r t h e
p e r i o d o f 1 2 y e a r s . I w a s s a y in g th a t i n j e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : B u t w h a t th e n h a p p e n e d
is t h a t l a t e r o n I – a l a d y w a s t h e n s e c o n d e d t o m y o ffic e a s m y
s e c r e t a r y a n d a t a v e r y la t e s t a g e s h e t h e n s a i d t o m e t h a t s h e r e l a te d
her story to me that she said she was present at the – when I gave that
– a t th a t w e l c o m i n g e v e n t . T h e n s h e s a i d t h e r e w a s a g e n t le m a n s h e
w a s s t a n d i n g b y t h e d o o r a n d a s e c o n d g e n t le m a n i m m e d i a te ly p a s s e d

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
a c o m m e n t a f te r I m a d e t h o s e r e m a r k s a n d s a id y o u w il l b e s u r p r is e d
t h a t y o u w i ll n o t e v e n l a s t f o r a p e r i o d o f t h r e e m o n t h s .

As we

c o n ti n u e d w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r t h e n i n t h e o ff i c e a n d s h e t h e n h a p p e n e d t o
m e e t a n d k n o w t h a t a p p a r e n tl y th a t p e r s o n w h o m a d e t h o s e c o m m e n ts
w a s Mr L a w r e n c e M w e b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o – s o t h i s l a d y w h o w a s e m p l o y e d b y t h e N PA s a i d
a p e r s o n w h o w a s s t a n d i n g b e h i n d h e r.
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: At…
10

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : O r n e x t t o h e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh next to her?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: At the time when you made the speech.
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A f t e r b e i n g in tr o d u c e d b y M i n i s t e r J e ff R a d a b e a t th e
N PA t o t h e N PA s t a ff.
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S a i d y o u w i ll b e s u r p r i s e d th a t y o u w i ll n o t e v e n fi n i s h
t h r e e m o n th s ?

20

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e n t h a t s a m e l a d y l a te r c a m e b a c k t o y o u a n d
s a i d t h a t p e r s o n w a s Mr L a w r e n c e M w e b e ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s w h e n s h e g o t to s e e
h i m w h e n w e h a d i n t e r a c t io n s w i t h th e m i n m y b o a r d r o o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : A n d s h e i d e n ti f ie d h i m a s
Lawrence Mwebe.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : A lr ig h t . Yo u h a v e s p o k e n t h e n
a b o u t t h e tw o N PA o ffi c i a l s w h o a p p r o a c h e d y o u r u n s o li c i t e d a n d
separately?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W i t h i n fo r m a t i o n .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A b o u t w h a t o t h e r p e o p l e i n th e
N PA w e r e d o i n g t o u n s e a t y o u ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t m o r e o r l e s s a n a c c u r a t e
s u m m a r y I d o n o t w a n t to p u t w o r d s i n y o u r m o u t h u n n e c e s s a r il y. W e
a r e g o i n g t o g o t o t h e d e t a il i n a m o m e n t .
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

J a b u t a g a i n a l s o C h a ir

p e r h a p s th is m ig h t a ls o b e c o m e r e l e v a n t I – a ls o d u r i n g t h e – j u s t to g o
back.

D u r i n g t h e – t h a t S e p t e m b e r p e r i o d o f 2 0 1 3 w h e n th e

a n n o u n c e m e n t h a d b e e n m a d e b e f o r e I t o o k o ffic e I r e c e i v e d – I
20

r e m e m b e r I r e c e iv e d a c a ll fr o m A d v o c a t e M d la d la c o m m o n l y k n o w n a s
A d v o c a t e S t h e m b is o M d la d l a c o m m o n ly k n o w n a s S t ic k s M d l a d l a .

I

k n o w t h a t h e w a s t h e n s u b s e q u e n tly o n e o f t h e m e m b e r s o f t h e C a s s i m
C o m m i s s i o n o f I n q u ir y h e w a s a ls o a m e m b e r.

He phoned me in the

m o r n in g a n d s a i d t o m e a p p a r e n tl y h e m a d e m e n ti o n o f a Mr M w e b e .
H e s a i d h e u n d e r s t a n d M r M w e b e w a n te d t o s p e a k to m e b e c a u s e h e

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
f e a r s o r h e a r s to ld h i m t h a t – h e h a s b e e n t o l d th a t w h e n I c a m e t o N PA
I w i ll d e a l w i th h i m .

C h a i r i t to o k m e b y s u r p r is e a s I p o i n te d o u t

e a r l ie r o n t h a t I d i d n o t e v e n k n o w h i m . I d id n o t e v e n m e t h i m I d i d n o t
k n o w a n y o n e e x c e p t t h e p e r s o n t h a t I la t e r id e n t i fi e d a s A d v o c a te
P i n k i e M o k g a tl e .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t t h e l a d y g a v e y o u a b o u t t h e

g e n tl e m a n th a t w a s s ta n d i n g n e x t to h e r w a s th a t i n fo r m a ti o n s o li c i t e d ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : R ig h t. Yo u s a i d t h a t M r Te r e n c e
J o u b e r t g a v e y o u a n a ffi d a v i t t h a t i s p a r t o f th e b u n d l e ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n s u m m a r y w h a t d i d M r J o u b e r t
t e ll y o u i n t h a t a ff id a v i t? O r w h a t d i d t h a t a ff i d a v i t s a y ? Yo u d e a l w i th
that in paragraph 36.
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I n s u m m a r y C h a ir

a p p a r e n t ly A d v o c a t e J ib a w a s g o i n g to D u r b a n .

I t h in k i t w a s o n th e

d a y th a t I m e t h e r. A n d t h e p r o t o c o l i s th a t Te r e n c e J o u b e r t a s th e R i s k
O ff ic e r S p e c i a l is t i n D u r b a n i s – w a s r e s p o n s i b le f o r s e c u r i ty a n d r i s k . I
20

think he was the head in Durban.

H e w a s th e o n e w h o w a s g o in g t o

f e t c h A d v o c a te J ib a f r o m t h e K i n g S h a k a I n te r n a ti o n a l A ir p o r t a n d d r iv e
t o h e r d e s t in a ti o n . B u t t h e n M r J o u b e r t s a y s th a t h e th e n s u b s e q u e n t ly
w h e n h e h a d m a d e a r r a n g e m e n t s t o g o a n d fe tc h A d v o c a te J ib a h e
r e c e i v e d a p h o n e c a ll fr o m t h e A d v o c a te J ib a ’s s e c r e t a r y a d v is i n g h i m
t h a t h e w a s n o t – h e w a s n o l o n g e r g o i n g t o b e – i t w a s n o t g o i n g to b e

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h i m w h o w a s g o i n g to fe t c h A d v o c a t e J i b a a n d i t w a s n o w g o i n g t o b e
C o l o n e l M h l o n g o . A n d t h e n h e s a i d h e fo u n d t h a t v e r y s tr a n g e b e c a u s e
h e t a lk s a b o u t t h e s e c u r i ty, t h e p r o t o c o l a n d t h e s e c u r i ty r i s k a t t a c h e d
t o a l l o f t h a t . A n d t h e n h e m a d e m e n ti o n o f a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e – h e th e n
m a d e m e n t io n o f t h e s e t w o p o l ic e o ff ic e r s t h a t w e r e d e p l o y e d t o t h e
D P P ’s o ff ic e in D u r b a n A d v o c a t e N o k o a n d th a t is w h e n h e c h a ll e n g e d
t h a t b e c a u s e o f t h e s e c u r i t y r is k a n d th a t t h e y w e r e n o t v e t te d
a p p a r e n t ly h is b o s s fr o m th e h e a d o ff ic e a Mr R a m a h a n a f le w d o w n a n d
c a m e d o w n a n d c a s ti g a te d h i m f o r t h a t .
10

T h e n h e i n t h i s a ff id a v i t h e

t h e n t a l k s a b o u t th e – th e p lo t n o w t h a t a p p a r e n tly J ib a w a s r u n n in g a
campaign to get me removed as the – he said to Mhlongo – or he said
M h lo n g o t o l d h i m t h a t …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : M h l o n g o t o ld w h o ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

O h s o r r y M h l o n g o to l d

Joubert.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

That Jiba said to him –

J ib a d o e s n o t tr u s t t h is g u y t h e – w h o is t h e n e w N D P P M r N x a s a n a a n d
t h a t M h l o n g o m u s t g o o u t a n d g e t s o m e – a n d d i g s o m e d ir t a b o u t h i m .
20

S o th a t …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t is y o u ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: About me?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h e w h o le in t e n t i o n w a s
t o e m b a r r a s s m e a n d t h a t s h e d i d n o t k n o w m e b u t t h e w h o l e i n t e n t io n

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w a s t o e m b a r r a s s m e s o t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t w il l r e m o v e m e o r w i ll fi r e
m e a s th e N a t io n a l D i r e c t o r a n d s h e w il l t h e n b e c o n s id e r e d t o e i th e r
c o n ti n u e to a c t o r t o b e c o n s i d e r e d o n a – t o b e a p p o i n te d o n a
p e r m a n e n t b a s is .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

S o th e a ffi d a v it o f M r J o u b e r t

t a lk s o f a c o n v e r s a t io n b e t w e e n C o lo n e l M h l o n g o a n d Mr J o u b e r t ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d r e l a te s w h a t w a s t o l d t o Mr
J o u b e r t i n t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n b y C o l o n e l M h lo n g o ?
10

ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: That is correct.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d y o u h a v e r e la t e d s o m e o f

that?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W a s a n y th i n g m e n ti o n e d i n t h a t
c o n v e r s a ti o n a c c o r d i n g t o M r J o u b e r t a b o u t th e R o a d A c c id e n t F u n d ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d y o u h a v e – is t h a t w h a t y o u
h a v e ju s t t o l d th e C h a ir a b o u t ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:
20

Th a t is w h a t I h a v e j u s t

t o l d t h e C h a ir a n d a ls o th e – t h e is s u e a b o u t t h e c a s e s t h a t I h a d fa c e d
in a b o u t 2 0 1 5 .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A lr i g h t .
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA: Sorry 1985.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

And what – was anything said

a b o u t t h e e x a m p l e p r i o r e x a m p l e o f M r S ta n l e y G u m e d e w o u l d y o u

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
e x p l a i n th a t b r i e fly t o th e C h a ir.
ADV MXO LISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Oh yes.

C h a ir y e s .

In

t h a t a ff id a v i t a ls o M r J o u b e r t r e f e r s to – h e s a y s th a t C o l o n e l M h lo n g o
a ls o t o l d h i m t h a t Mr S t a n l e y G u m e d e w h o is t h e R e g i o n a l M a g i s tr a t e in
D u r b a n w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s c o n s id e r e d f o r th e p o s it i o n b e f o r e
m y s e l f . B u t th a t A d v o c a t e J i b a r a n t h e c a m p a i g n t o d i s c r e d i t h i m a n d
o n e o f t h e t h i n g s i n t h a t a ffi d a v it t h a t w h ic h J o u b e r t a l l e g e s is t h a t J i b a
o r – J i b a t h e n – th e y c o n v in c e d a o n e a d v o c a te h e r e – th e y c a ll h i m
M a k o s i i n D u r b a n t o – t o c o m p la in a b o u t t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h Mr
10

G u m e d e h a d tr e a t e d h e r i n c o u r t a s a r e s u l t Mr G u m e d e h a d to f a c e a
lo t

of

c o m p l a i n ts

and

he

was

in v e s t ig a te d

by

the

M a g is tr a t e s

C o m m i s s i o n . T h e m a t t e r w a s a l l o v e r t h e m e d i a a n d th e Pr e s id e n t t h a t
[i n d is t in c t] t h e P r e s i d e n t n o t c o n s i d e r i n g h i m a s th e c a n d id a t e .

Then

h e s a y s t h a t t h e y w e r e u s in g t h e v e r y s a m e t a c t ic t h a t t h e y u s e d
a g a in s t – a n d h e w a s r e s p o n s i b l e M r – C o l o n e l M h l o n g o i n th a t
c a m p a i g n a u t h o r is e d b y J i b a .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C : N o w y o u h a v e t o l d t h e C h a ir t h a t
t h is c o n v e r s a ti o n b e t w e e n Mr J o u b e r t a n d C o l o n e l M h l o n g o w a s
recorded?
20

A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u i n fo r m e d t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s

t h a t i t h a d b e e n r e c o r d e d b u t a s o f y e s te r d a y w e h a d n o t b e e n o r t h e
in v e s t i g a t o r s h a d n o t b e e n a b le t o o b ta i n t h e r e c o r d i n g ?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Yo u m a n a g e d t o o b t a i n t h e

Page 82 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
recording?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s te r d a y a f t e r I h a d l e f t
you.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

O k a y.

And you now have that

recording?
A D V M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir w e h a v e n o t h a d a n

o p p o r t u n i ty f ir s t ly t o h e a r t h e r e c o r d in g , s e c o n d ly a n d i m p o r ta n tl y t o
tr a n s c r ib e th e r e c o r d i n g .
10

I a m n o t a v e r s e to p l a y in g t h e r e c o r d in g

s h o u l d y o u r e q u i r e C h a ir i n f a c t to d o s o b u t o n t h e a s s u m p ti o n th a t w e
h a v e n o t b e e n a b le t o p r e c o g n i z e t h e w i t n e s s in r e l a t i o n t o th e
recording.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w l o n g i s t h e c o n v e r s a ti o n i n t h e r e c o r d i n g ?
ADV MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASA NA:

C h a ir I t h i n k i t is l e s s

t h a n e i g h t m i n u t e s if I a m n o t m is t a k e n o r f iv e m i n u te s j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M a y b e d u r i n g lu n c h b r e a k I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e r e
c o u l d b e a c h a n c e fo r y o u to h e a r i t I w o u l d n o t b e i n s is t in g th a t i t b e
h e a r d to d a y i f y o u w o u l d r a t h e r l e t i t b e h e a r d s o m e o t h e r t i m e b u t …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H
20

P R E TO R I U S S C :

W e l l i t is j u s t p e r h a p s

in c o n v e n i e n t fo r y o u C h a i r t o h e a r t h e r e c o r d i n g w h ic h m a y b e u n c l e a r
in p a r t w i t h o u t i t b e in g p r o p e r ly tr a n s c r i b e d . B u t w i t h o u t a tr a n s c r i p t i o n
the…
CHAIRPERSON: If you …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I t is n o t u p to u s t o p r e c o n iz e

the witness in the sense that we…

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o I w o u ld p r e f e r th a t y o u h e a r i t fir s t s o th a t y o u
h a v e a n i d e a a b o u t i ts v a l u e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n d e e d C h a ir w e w il l d o t h a t o v e r
the…
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e I a ll o w i t. .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L o n g a d j o u r n m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

If – once you have heard it and if you say you take

t h e – y o u r s u b m is s io n s th a t i t c a n b e h e a r d t h e n w e c a n lo o k a t h e a r i n g
it b u t i f t h e r e a r e c ir c u m s t a n c e s th a t ju s ti f y t h a t i t b e h e a r d o n a n o t h e r
10

d a y t h e n t h a t s h o u ld b e a r r a n g e d . I a m s u r e M r N x a s a n a w o u l d m a k e
h i m s e l f a v a il a b l e .

B u t o b v io u s ly t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t is p o s s i b l e w e

w o u ld lik e to tr y a n d f in is h h is e v id e n c e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : To d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d s o i t i s j u s t a b a l a n c e t o b e s tr u c k .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s . In d e e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u .

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h is a c o n v e n ie n t ti m e t h e n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e w il l ta k e t h e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t n o w i t i s o n e
o ’c l o c k w e w il l r e s u m e a t tw o . W e a d j o u r n .
20

R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r P r e t o r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir w e h a v e h a d a p o l it e

r e q u e s t fr o m c o u n s e l r e p r e s e n t in g A d v o c a t e J i b a t o p l a c e o p p o s i t io n o r

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
a n a r g u m e n t b e f o r e y o u . I a m t r y in g t o g e t h o l d o f c o u n s e l c o n c e r n e d –
Advocate Ngalwana.

M a y w e s t a n d d o w n f o r f iv e m i n u te s s o I c a n

e s t a b li s h w h e r e h is w h e r e a b o u ts a r e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e w il l s t a n d d o w n f o r a b o u t f iv e m in u t e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
H E A R IN G A D J O U R N S
H E A R IN G R E S U M E S
10

CHAIRPERSON:

M r P r e t o r iu s y o u - d o y o u w a n t t o d e a l w i t h t h e f a c t

t h a t w e o n ly r e s u m e n o w ?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. Yo u – y o u
w i ll r e c a ll th is m o r n i n g p r i o r t o t h e w i t n e s s b e in g c a ll e d a n d s w o r n a n d
g iv i n g t e s t i m o n y it w a s d r a w n to y o u r a t te n ti o n t h a t in a ll t h e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h ic h w e r e p la c e d b e f o r e y o u R u le 3 . 3 N o t ic e s t o
i m p l ic a t e d p a r ti e s h a d n o t b e e n g iv e n b u t w o u l d b e g iv e n i m m e d i a t e l y
a ft e r t h e c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e w i t n e s s ’ t e s ti m o n y.

On that basis you

r e q u e s t e d t o a l l o w th e w i tn e s s ’ e v id e n c e a n d y o u d i d s o .
Advocate Ngalwana
20

on

behalf

of

M s J ib a

has

Since then

approached

th e

C o m m i s s i o n a n d m a d e c e r t a in r e q u e s ts o f t h e C o m m i s s io n . In e s s e n c e
t h a t a n y e v i d e n c e c o n c e r n i n g M s J ib a b e e x c l u d e d p e n d i n g t h e i s s u e o f
a n o ti c e t o a l lo w M s J ib a to c o n s i d e r h e r p o s i t io n a n d t a k e l e g a l a d v ic e .
N o w C h a ir th e p u r p o s e o f t h e R u le c e r t a i n ly a s w e u n d e r s t a n d it o r a t
le a s t t h e p r i n c ip le p u r p o s e o f t h e R u l e i s t o g iv e a n i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n
a n o p p o r tu n i t y to p l a c e a v e r s i o n b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d to m a k e

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
a p p lic a ti o n t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e .

I n o t h e r w o r d s t o c o n t e s t t h e e v id e n c e

g iv e n b y a w it n e s s a n d i n a n y a p p r o a c h t h a t y o u w i ll b e r e q u e s t e d to
m a k e t h a t p r i n c ip le s h o u ld r e m a i n s a c r o s a n c t .

There is another

p o t e n t i a l p u r p o s e o f t h e r u l e a n d th a t is i f t h e r e i s a n y p r o s p e c t o f
u n l a w f u l a n d I s tr e s s u n l a w fu l a s o p p o s e d to i n a d m i s s i b l e e v i d e n c e
b e i n g g iv e n p e r h a p s o f a c o n fi d e n t i a l n a t u r e o r o f a t o p s e c r e t n a tu r e
t h e n th a t i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n w o u l d h a v e a n o p p o r tu n it y to d e a l w i th i t. I
d o n o t b e l ie v e w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h th a t c a t e g o r y o f is s u e i n th is m a t t e r.
C e r t a in ly n o t i n t h e e v i d e n c e th a t t h e w i t n e s s i n te n d s t o g i v e . S o t h a t
10

is t h e p r in c i p l e p u r p o s e o f t h e R u le to a l l o w a v e r s i o n t o b e p u t a n d t o
a l lo w c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n t o t a k e p la c e a n d i t s h o u ld b e r e s p e c te d a t a l l
ti m e s .
fr o m

There can be no doubt about that.
in

appropriate

c i r c u ms t a n c e s

and

Th e R u l e m a y b e d e p a r t e d
our

s u b m is s io n

is

such

c ir c u m s ta n c e s e x is t e d th is m o r n i n g a n d y o u C h a ir a c c e p t e d t h a t . Th e r e
a r e t w o p r in c i p l e s e m b e d d e d i n t h e r u l e s o f f a ir n e s s w i t h w h i c h th is
C o m m i s s i o n is o b v i o u s ly b o u n d a n d in t h e r u l e s w h ic h g iv e e x p r e s s i o n
t o th o s e p r in c i p l e s o f f a ir n e s s . Th e o n e i s t h a t n o p a r ty m a y b e c a u s e
t h a t i m p l ic a t e d o r o t h e r w is e d is a g r e e s w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t a p e r s o n
is g o i n g to g i v e a n d w h o h a s r e c e iv e d n o tic e o f t h a t e v id e n c e h o l d a
20

tr i a l o r a c o n te s t o u t s i d e th e C o m m i s s io n ’s p r o c e e d i n g s a n d s a y y o u
c a n n o t l e a d th a t e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e i t i s w r o n g o r I d i s a g r e e w it h i t o r
b e c a u s e it is f a l s e . T h e p r o p e r p l a c e fo r t h a t c o n te s t t o t a k e p l a c e is i n
t h is fo r u m in p u b lic a n d i n d e e d th a t is w h a t th e l a w r e q u ir e s t h a t t h is
C o m m i s s i o n t o t a k e p l a c e i n p u b l ic . S o a w i t n e s s g iv e s e v id e n c e t h a t.
T h a t e v i d e n c e i s c o n te s te d a f t e r t h a t w i t n e s s h a s b e e n – h a d g iv e n

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
evidence.

Th e r e c a n n o t b e a tr i a l o u ts id e w h ic h w o u l d in f lu e n c e t h a t

w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e . T h a t is th e f ir s t p r i n c i p l e . T h e s e c o n d p r i n c i p le is
t h a t – a n d i t is a ls o s a c r o s a n c t – is t h a t a n y i m p lic a t e d p e r s o n m u s t b e
g iv e n a f u l l a n d fa ir o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o n t e s t t h e e v id e n c e o f a w i t n e s s
a n d to c r o s s - e x a mi n e s u b je c t t o t h e r u l e s a n d t h e d i s c r e ti o n t h a t y o u
h a v e e m b e d d e d i n th o s e r u le s C h a ir. S o t h o s e a r e t h e tw o s a c r o s a n c t
p r i n c i p l e s . T h e q u e s ti o n is c a n t h e y b e m e t i n t h i s c a s e . I f t h e r e a r e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h i c h in d ic a t e t h a t t h e e v id e n c e th a t th is w i t n e s s is
a b o u t t o g i v e is s o m e h o w u n la w f u l o r c a n n o t b e la w f u l ly p u t b e f o r e a
10

C o m m i s s i o n t h a t is o n e s e t o f i s s u e s . I d o n o t b e l ie v e t h o s e e x is t h e r e .
I f h o w e v e r i t is m e r e ly a m a t te r o f m a n a g in g a f a i r o p p o r t u n i ty t o
r e s p o n d e i t h e r b y w a y o f p u tt i n g u p a v e r s io n o r b y w a y o f a ll o w i n g
c r o s s - e x a m in a ti o n t h e n t h a t c a n b e m a n a g e d in a n y o r d e r t h a t y o u
might

make

Chair

c ir c u m s ta n c e .
having

the

rules

p r o v id e

I t h i n k t h a t i s R u l e 3 .6 .

c o n s id e r e d

c o n s i d e r a ti o n .

and

the

p o s i ti o n

e x p r e s s ly

for

such

a

T h e r e a r e t w o o p ti o n s t h e n

that

I

w o u ld

suggest

require

T h e o n e i s t o a ll o w t h e e v id e n c e - b u t to e x c l u d e a n y

r e fe r e n c e t o a n y i m p l ic a t e d p a r ty b e c a u s e o f c o u r s e a l l i m p l ic a te d
p a r t i e s m u s t b e tr e a t e d i n t h e s a m e m a n n e r n o t o n ly M s J i b a – t o a ll o w
20

t h a t e v i d e n c e to b e g iv e n w it h o u t r e fe r e n c e t o a n y i m p li c a t e d p a r ty a n d
t h e n t o r e c a ll th e w i tn e s s a t a l a t e r s t a g e o n c e n o tic e h a s b e e n g i v e n .
T h a t i s t h e o n e o p ti o n .
c a u ti o u s o p t i o n .

It m a y n o t b e e n t ir e ly p r a c ti c a l .

I t is t h e

T h e s e c o n d o p t io n is to a ll o w t h e w i tn e s s t o t e s ti fy

s u b j e c t t o a p p r o p r i a t e a r r a n g e m e n t s b e i n g m a d e o n r e p r e s e n ta t io n s b y
M r N g a l w a n a e i t h e r n o w o r a t a l a t e r s t a g e to e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e is a f u l l

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
o p p o r t u n i ty to p la c e a v e r s i o n b e fo r e y o u a n d t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e i n d u e
c o u r s e . T h e t a p e t h a t w e m e n t io n e d e a r l i e r m a y p o s s ib ly f a ll in t o th e
c a t e g o r y o f th a t e v id e n c e t h a t m a y n o t b e le d a t a ll a n d p e r h a p s
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s h o u l d b e a l lo w e d o n t h a t b e f o r e t h e t a p e is p l a y e d b u t
t h a t c o n c e s s i o n w e a r e h a p p y t o m a k e b u t o th e r w i s e C h a ir t h e s ta r k
c h o ic e a n d t h e a p p r o a c h t o a d o p t is le f t w i t h y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I s a i d i n t h e m o r n i n g w h e n y o u m e n t io n e d t h a t

M r N x a s a n a w a s c a l le d i n – o r p u r s u a n t t o m y d i r e c ti o n s o n e o f t h e
t h i n g s I s a id w a s th a t I w a n t e d t o h e a r h is e v id e n c e in r e g a r d t o h is
10

d e p a r t u r e fr o m t h e N PA a n d I s a id o f c o u r s e t h e n h is te n u r e a t t h e N PA
b e c a u s e h e h a v i n g b e e n N a ti o n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s a t a
c e r t a i n s t a g e a n d t h e r e b e e n s u g g e s t io n s a n d a l le g a ti o n s a n d s o m e
e v i d e n c e th a t th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n i n t e r f e r e n c e w it h t h e N PA a n d t h a t
s o m e p e o p le i n th e N PA m a y h a v e u s e d t h e ir p o w e r s t o c h a r g e a n d n o t
t o c h a r g e c e r t a i n p e o p l e in a n u n la w f u l w a y o r t h e y m a y n o t h a v e b e e n
m o t iv a t e d b y p r o p e r r e a s o n s .

I t w o u l d b e i m p o r ta n t to h e a r h is

e v i d e n c e . S o o n e , I c o n f ir m t h a t M r N x a s a n a w a s c a l l e d p u r s u a n t to m y
d ir e c t io n . Th a t i s t h e f ir s t p o i n t. T h e s e c o n d p o i n t , y o u d i d r a i s e i n th e
m o r n in g th e i s s u e t h a t R u l e 3 . 3 . N o t ic e s w e r e n o t g iv e n in a d v a n c e –
20

w e r e n o t s e n t o u t i n a d v a n c e b e c a u s e t h e le g a l t e a m o n l y g o t a s i g n e d
s t a te m e n t o f t h e w it n e s s y e s t e r d a y o r l a s t e v e n in g .

I was concerned

about that but I indicated that in terms of my focus it was – I expected
t h e w i tn e s s t o d e a l w i t h la r g e l y m a t t e r s t h a t h a v e b e e n th e s u b je c t o f
ju d g m e n t s a n d s o m e li t ig a ti o n th a t w o u l d b e – th a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n
t h e c o u r ts b u t o f c o u r s e w h e n a w i tn e s s g iv e s e v i d e n c e h e g e ts a s k e d

Page 88 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
q u e s t io n s a n d h e g iv e s e v id e n c e a n d h e m a y e l a b o r a te a n d s o o n . S o
– a n d – a n d I w a s p r e p a r e d t o l e t h i m c o n t in u e a n d i n d o i n g s o th e
p r o v i s i o n s o f R u l e 3 – o f th e R u l e s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n m a k e – t h e y
p r o v i d e t h a t w h e r e a p a r t y w h o – a n i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n b e l ie v e s t h a t h e
h a s n o t b e e n g iv e n e n o u g h – e n o u g h n o t ic e t h a t p a r ty m a y a p p r o a c h
t h e C o m m i s s io n f o r s u c h o r d e r a s m a y i n e ffe c t g iv e r e d r e s s t o t h e
s i tu a ti o n .

O f c o u r s e th is is a s i t u a t io n w h e r e t h e n o tic e s w e r e n o t

g iv e n i n a d v a n c e a t a l l.

T h a t is i m p o r t a n t t o l o o k a t.

I think what

s h o u l d h a p p e n i s I s h o u ld a l lo w Mr N g a l w a n a t o s a y s o m e th in g i f h e
10

wishes to say something.

H e r e p r e s e n ts M s J ib a a n d t h e n w e t a k e i t

fr o m t h e r e b u t i t m a y w e l l b e t h a t w h e r e n o t ic e h a s n o t b e e n g iv e n a t
a l l.

I t m a y b e th a t th a t m u s t b e l o o k e d a t c a r e f u l ly a s o p p o s e d t o

w h e r e n o t ic e w a s g iv e n b u t t h e r e is a c o m p l a i n t th a t i t is i n a d e q u a t e –
t h e n o tic e g i v e n i s i n a d e q u a t e o r – s o m a y b e s u b je c t t o w h a t e v e r y o u
m i g h t w is h t o s a y I w o u l d l ik e t o h e a r w h a t M r N g a l w a n a h a s to s a y b u t
m a y b e t h a t w e s h o u l d s e e w h a t c a n b e d o n e . T h e i d e a is a l w a y s t o tr y
a n d b e a s fa ir a s p o s s i b le t o e v e r y b o d y b u t t a k i n g in t o a c c o u n t
p r a c ti c a li ti e s t h a t w e h a v e to d e a l w i th . M r N g a lw a n a .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :
20

T h a n k y o u D e p u ty C h i e f J u s tic e .

Thank

y o u f o r t h e in d u l g e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

O f t h e t w o o p t io n s o r p e r h a p s s h o u l d I

c o n fir m t h a t I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

I s t a n d h e r e o n th e i n s tr u c ti o n s o f M a j a v u

Page 89 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
Incorporated …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : F o r M s J ib a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

N o n e o f th e l e g a l – m e m b e r s o r t h e l e g a l

team …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : A r e in J o h a n n e s b u r g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

S o I a m th e o n ly o n e w h o is h e r e .

So I

h a v e b e e n a s k e d t o m a k e th e s e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : O f t h e t w o p r o p o s a ls m a d e b y t h e e v i d e n c e
le a d e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

I h a v e n o t ta k e n in s tr u c ti o n s b u t I w o u l d

i m a g i n e t h e o n e t h a t w o u ld e n d u r e i ts e lf t o Ms J i b a a n d t h e le g a l t e a m
m i g h t b e t h e f ir s t o n e w h ic h i s t o a l lo w t h e w i t n e s s t o t e s t i fy fu r t h e r
b e c a u s e h e is q u it e r i g h t.
20

W e c a n n o t s t o p th e w i tn e s s fr o m g iv in g

e v i d e n c e i n a p u b l ic d o m a in b u t t h e n n o t t o g iv e e v i d e n c e t h a t w o u l d
i m p l ic a t e Ms J i b a a n d a l l t h e – a n d t h e o t h e r p e r s o n s w h o m – w h o a r e
not represented by me.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : N o w Mr P r e t o r iu s r e fe r r e d to w h a t h e t e r m s
the principle of Rule 3.3.

Page 90 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : J u s t b r ie f ly I w is h t o d e a l w i t h th is .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

C a n I t a k e u s to R u l e 3 . 3 it s e l f a n d w i t h

y o u r i n d u lg e n c e D C J I j u s t w a n t t o b r ie fl y r e a d i t b e c a u s e i t is
i m p o r t a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d th e t e x t o f t h e R u l e s o t h a t o n e c a n a p p r e c ia t e
t h e t e x tu a l c o n t e x t a n d t h e p r i n c ip le s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Th a t l ie s b e h i n d i t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : I t r e a d s a s f o l l o w s :
“ I f t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m i n t e n d s t o p r e s e n t
to

th e

C o m m is s i o n

a

witness

whose

e v id e n c e

i m p l ic a t e s o r m a y i m p li c a t e a n o t h e r p e r s o n i t m u s t
t h r o u g h t h e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e C o m m is s i o n n o ti f y a n
i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n i n w r i ti n g w it h in a r e a s o n a b l e
ti m e b e fo r e t h e w i t n e s s g iv e s e v i d e n c e . ”
I s tr e s s o n t h e w o r d “ b e f o r e ” .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : 3 . 3 .1 :
“ S o m u s t b e g i v e n r e a s o n a b le ti m e b e fo r e t h e
w i t n e s s g iv e s e v id e n c e th a t h e o r s h e … ”
T h e s e a r e th e t h i n g s a b o u t w h ic h n o t i c e h a d to b e g iv e n t o th e
i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n .
“ … t h a t h e o r s h e is o r m a y b e i m p li c a t e d b y t h e

Page 91 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
witness’ evidence.”
I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t h e e v id e n c e l e a d i n g t e a m o n ly le a r n t la s t n i g h t a b o u t
t h e c o n t e n t o f Mr N x a s a n a ’s e v i d e n c e a n d s o th e r e w o u l d n o t h a v e
b e e n a n o p p o r tu n it y t o g iv e p r i o r n o t ic e . Tw o :
“ I n w h a t w a y h e o r s h e is o r m a y b e i m p li c a t e d a n d
f u r n is h e d

with

him

or

her

w i th

the

witness’

s t a te m e n t o r r e l e v a n t p o r ti o n s o f th e s t a te m e n t . ”
Three:
“Of the date and when - and the venue when the
w i t n e s s w i ll g iv e e v i d e n c e . ”

10
Four:

“ T h a t h e o r s h e m a y a t t e n d t h e h e a r i n g a t w h ic h th e
w i t n e s s g iv e s e v id e n c e . ”
Fi v e :
“That

he

or

she

may

be

a s s is t e d

by

legal

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e w h e n t h e w i tn e s s g iv e s e v i d e n c e . ”
S ix :
“ T h a t i f h e o r s h e w is h e s t o g iv e e v id e n c e h i m s e l f
o r h e r s e l f t o c a ll a n y w it n e s s t o g iv e e v i d e n c e o n
20

h is o r h e r b e h a l f o r t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e t h e w it n e s s
t h e n h e o r s h e m u s t w i t h i n tw o w e e k s fr o m t h e d a t e
o f n o tic e a p p l y i n w r i ti n g t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n f o r
le a v e t o d o s o a n d t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w ill d e c i d e
t h e a p p lic a ti o n . ”
3 .4 t h e n s a y s :

Page 92 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
“ A n a p p lic a ti o n i n te r m s o f i n t e r m s o f R u l e 3 . 3 .6
m u s t b e s u b m i tt e d i n w r i ti n g t o t h e S e c r e t a r y o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n w i t h i n 1 4 c a l e n d a r d a y s fr o m t h e d a t e
of

the

n o tic e

r e fe r r e d

to

in

Rule

3.3.

The

a p p lic a ti o n m u s t b e a c c o m p a n i e d b y a s t a te m e n t
fr o m

the

i m p l ic a te d

person

responding

to

th e

w i t n e s s ’ s t a t e m e n t i n s o fa r a s it i m p li c a t e s h i m o r
h e r. T h e s ta t e m e n t m u s t m a k e i t c le a r w h a t p a r ts o f
t h e w i t n e s s ’ s t a te m e n t a r e d is p u t e d o r d e n i e d a n d
10

t h e g r o u n d s u p o n w h ic h th o s e p a r ts a r e d i s p u te d o r
d e n ie d . ”
A n d l a s tl y t h is i s t h e l a s t p a r t I a m g o i n g t o r e a d .
“ I f a n i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n b e li e v e s … ”
A n d t h is i s t h e p a r t th a t I u n d e r s t a n d t h e D C J w a s d e a l in g w i t h .
“If

an

i m p l ic a te d

person

believes

that

the

C o m m i s s i o n ’s l e g a l te a m d i d n o t g iv e h i m o r h e r
n o t ic e r e f e r r e d t o i n R u le 3 . 3 w i th i n a r e a s o n a b l e
ti m e b e fo r e t h e w i tn e s s c o u l d o r w a s t o g iv e
e v i d e n c e a n d th a t th is m a y b e p r e j u d ic i a l t o h i m o r
20

h e r h e o r s h e m a y a p p ly … ”
T h a t is th e i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n .
“ … m a y a p p ly t o th e C o m m is s i o n fo r s u c h o r d e r a s
w i ll

ensure

that

he

or

she

p r e j u d ic e d . ”
T h a t is w h y I a m h e r e .

Page 93 of 136

is

not

s e r io u s ly

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Th e r e i s n o th i n g in R u l e 3 . 5 th a t s a y s t h a t
a p p lic a ti o n m u s t b e i n w r i t in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : A n d o f c o u r s e s in c e t h e l e g a l t e a m …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l y o u m i g h t w i s h t o lo o k t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h e

Rules …
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

For

s o m e th i n g

that might say

any

a p p lic a ti o n

p r o v i d e d h e r e n e e d s t o b e ( in d is ti n c t) a p p li c a ti o n .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e m t o t h i n k t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g a lo n g th o s e l i n e s

but …
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Anyway you – you …
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : I – I a p p r e c i a t e t h a t D C J …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : B u t g i v e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : C ir c u m s t a n c e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : W h e n o n e l e a r n s o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : E v id e n c e t h a t m i g h t i m p l ic a t e a p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

Page 94 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : O n t h e m o r n in g e ff e c t iv e ly fi v e m i n u te s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : B e f o r e th e b e g in n i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : I t i s i m p o s s i b l e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

That one would be able to put that in

w r i t in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

N o w th is – th e R u le a s I h a v e r e a d ta lk s

a b o u t t h e s ta t e m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

O f t h e w i t n e s s lik e ly t o i m p li c a t e th e

i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : N o ti c e o f t h e s t a t e m e n t b e in g g iv e n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : I t d o e s n o t s a y n o t ic e o f e v i d e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : B e i n g g i v e n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : S o i t is t o t h e s t a te m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Th a t th e i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n i s t o r e s p o n d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

T h e r e a s o n I m a k e t h i s s u b m is s io n is t h is

M r Pr e to r i u s in h is s e c o n d o p t io n t h a t M r N x a s a n a m a y t e s ti fy o n a l l
a n d s u n d r y in c l u d i n g e v i d e n c e - a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t – e v i d e n c e t h a t m a y
i m p l ic a t e M s J ib a s u b j e c t t o M s J i b a b e e n g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i t y i n d u e
c o u r s e to c o m e a n d p l a c e h e r o w n v e r s io n b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s io n .
Now the Rules 3.3 to 3.5 as I have read it does not seem to me to
c o u n t e n a n c e s u c h a p r o p o s i ti o n b e c a u s e i t d e a ls w it h s ta t e m e n t.

It

d o e s n o t w i t h e v i d e n c e a n d i f a w i tn e s s i s p e r m it t e d to m a k e o r t o g i v e
e v i d e n c e t h a t i m p l ic a t e s a w i tn e s s w h o h a s n o t b e e n g i v e n n o ti c e a n d
10

t h e n is g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty to c o m e a n d p l a c e e v i d e n c e la t e r th e
d a m a g e is l o n g d o n e b e c a u s e a s w e a l l k n o w w e a r e a l l m e m b e r s o f
s o c ie t y. W e w a tc h t e le v is i o n . W e r e a d n e w s p a p e r s . W h a te v e r is s a i d
b y a w i t n e s s e s p e c ia ll y in t h is C o m m i s s i o n - a t l e a s t i t h a s b e e n m y
o b s e r v a t i o n – i s a n y a l le g a ti o n - n o t e v e n p r o v e n e v i d e n c e - a n y
a l le g a ti o n t h a t is m a d e a g a i n s t a p e r s o n is ta k e n b y s o c ie t y t o t h e tr u th
b e f o r e i t i s e v e n te s t e d a n d s o b y t h e t i m e in d u e c o u r s e M s J i b a c o m e s
t o t e s t t h a t e v i d e n c e i t i s t o o l a t e . N o w C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e is a f e a r th a t
t h e l e g a l t e a m a n d Ms J i b a h a s a n d I a p p r e c i a t e y o u r e x p l a n a t io n o f
h o w Mr N x a s a n a c a m e t o t e s t if y t o d a y. I t is t h e ti m i n g o f t h e e v i d e n c e

20

t h e c o n c e r n i s th a t th e P r e s i d e n t h a s r e l ie v e d M s J i b a o f h e r d u ti e s a s
t h e D e p u t y N a ti o n a l D i r e c t o r o f P u b l ic Pr o s e c u ti o n s b u t t h a t th a t
d e c is i o n s t il l n e e d s t o b e c o n s id e r e d b y t h e N a t i o n a l A s s e m b l y.

Now

t h e r e i s a d e b a te a b o u t w h e th e r t h e N a t io n a l A s s e m b l y n e e d s t o
a p p r o v e th e Pr e s id e n t’s d e c is i o n o r i t is s i m p ly a r u b b e r s t a m p . I h a v e
n o t s tu d i e d t h a t b u t i t c e r t a i n ly h a s to b e c o n s i d e r e d b y th e N a t i o n a l

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A s s e m b l y a n d s o t h e fe a r is th a t a n y e v i d e n c e th a t i m p lic a t e s M s J ib a
without

her

having

been

given

prior

n o t ic e

may

colour

those

c o n s i d e r a ti o n s b y m e m b e r s o f t h e N a ti o n a l A s s e m b ly. W e d o n o t k n o w
y e t w h e n th e N a ti o n a l As s e m b ly w ill c o n s i d e r th is . W e h a v e th e S t a t e
o f t h e N a ti o n A d d r e s s c o m in g u p i n a c o u p l e o f d a y s ’ ti m e .

I do not

i m a g i n e t h a t i s a p l a t fo r m f o r t h i s s o r t o f t h i n g t o h a p p e n . S o i n s h o r t
D e p u ty C h i e f J u s ti c e w e w i t h o u t h a v i n g t a k e n i n s tr u c t io n s b u t I i m a g i n e
t h is m i g h t b e a p r a c tic a l w a y t o g o a b o u t i t .

T h e f ir s t o p ti o n t h a t

M r Pr e to r i u s s u g g e s te d w h ic h is t o le a d M r N x a s a n a i n e v i d e n c e e x c e p t
10

t h e e v i d e n c e o f th e i m p l ic a te d p e o p l e w h o h a v e n o t b e e n g iv e n n o t ic e .
T h e r e w a s o n e la s t t h i n g w h ic h I f o r g e t n o w. W e ll i f I f o r g e t i t c o u l d n o t
h a v e b e e n th a t i m p o r t a n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : D C J u n l e s s t h e r e a r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : O t h e r q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u w a n t t o p u t t o m e
t h o s e a r e my s u b m is s i o n s f o r n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , I j u s t w a n t to c o n fir m a g a in th a t a s fa r a s I
k n o w t h e o n ly r e a s o n M r N x a s a n a is h e r e is b e c a u s e I g a v e d i r e c ti o n s

20

t h a t a n u m b e r o f w i t n e s s e s b e c a ll e d a n d h e w a s a m o n g th o s e a n d –
a n d it w a s n o t t h e fir s t t i m e th a t I s a i d h e s h o u ld b e c a l le d . A lr e a d y
la s t y e a r I h a d s a i d h e s h o u l d b e c a ll e d a n d I th i n k s o m e a t t e m p ts w e r e
made but it did not happen.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

E a r l y t h i s y e a r I h a d s a i d h e s h o u ld b e c a ll e d a n d

Page 97 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
s o m e a tt e m p ts m a y h a v e b e e n m a d e a n d d id n o t s u c c e e d .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: So he might have had nothing to do with …
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

H i m b e i n g h e r e a n d M s J ib a m a y b e o r h i s e v id e n c e

b e e n a t – a t a p a r ti c u l a r t i m e n o r w o u l d th e l e g a l te a m r e a l ly o r th e
C o m m i s s i o n h a v e a n y th i n g to d o w i t h t h a t a n d fr o m m y s id e a s I
in d i c a t e d e a r li e r o n a n d y o u w e r e n o t h e r e w i th a ll t h e a l le g a ti o n s
a b o u t w h a t h a s b e e n h a p p e n i n g a t t h e N PA t h is C o m m is s i o n c a n n o t
10

fi n i s h i ts w o r k in r e g a r d to t h e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c i e s w h a t h a s b e e n
h a p p e n in g w i t h o u t h e a r in g e v i d e n c e o f s o m e b o d y li k e M r N x a s a n a .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o I ju s t – I j u s t w a n t t o c la r i fy t h a t .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

Ye s .

N o th a n k y o u D C J .

D e p u ty C h i e f

J u s t ic e t h a t th o u g h t h a s c o m e b a c k t o m e w h il e y o u w e r e j u s t
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

I t i s t h e e x t e n t o f t h e e v i d e n c e th a t

M r N x a s a n a n o w m a y b e l e d o n b y M r P r e to r i u s .
20

There has been a

s u g g e s t io n t h a t if t h e e v i d e n c e c o v e r s m a tt e r s t h a t a r e a lr e a d y i n th e
p u b lic d o m a i n o r m a tt e r s t h a t h a v e a lr e a d y b e e n d e a l t w i th i n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : In ju d g m e n t .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : A ff i d a v i ts a n d i n j u d g m e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

That

M s J ib a

Page 98 of 136

would

have

had

an

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
o p p o r t u n i ty to d e a l w i t h t h o s e in a n y e v e n t .

So they should be no

i m p e d i m e n t t o Mr N x a s a n a t e s t if y i n g t o t h o s e is s u e s .

T h e d i ffi c u l ty

w i t h th a t o r d i n a r i ly I h a v e – I w o u l d h a v e n o d i ffic u lt y w i t h i t b u t th e
d i ff ic u l ty in t h e s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Is I d o n o t k n o w w h a t e v i d e n c e h e is g o i n g
t o t e s t if y t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Th a t i s a lr e a d y i n th e p u b lic d o m a i n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Th a t i s t h e o n e t h in g a n d s o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : O n e n e e d s t o d o t o p e r fo r m th is e x e r c i s e o f
lo o k in g …
CHAIRPESON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : A t w h a t is a lr e a d y in th e p u b l ic d o m a i n t o
w h ic h Mr N x a s a n a w ill t e s ti f y t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : A n d s o o n e w o u l d n o t r a is e a n y o b j e c t io n .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : S o t h e e x e r c is e t h a t n e e d s t o b e p e r fo r m e d
is l o o k a t w h a t i s i n t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n a n d w h a t i s n e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

S t a n d in g n o w h e r e b e f o r e y o u I d o n o t

k n o w w h a t is n e w w h a t is in t h e p u b li c d o m a i n …

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : A n d s o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : I t s e e ms t o b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : R e a s o n a b l e a n d p r a c ti c a l t o a ll o w th e l e g a l
t e a m t o p e r f o r m t h a t e x e r c is e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : H a d w e k n o w n t h a t M r N x a s a n a is g o i n g to
10

b e t e s ti f y i n g t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

W e p r o b a b ly w o u l d h a v e p e r fo r m e d th a t

e x e r c is e a lr e a d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : W e c a n n o t n o w b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : P e n a l is e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : A n d b e e x p e c t e d to s i t i n th e C o m m i s s i o n .
20

I could sit …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : O n a w a tc h i n g b r i e f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : To l is t e n t o w h a t is b e e n l e d t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : B u t s i n c e I d o n o t k n o w w h a t i s a lr e a d y i n
t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n I c a n n o t s t a n d u p a n d o b j e c t o r t u g m y le a r n e d fr i e n d
b y th e s le e v e o f h is j a c k e t a n d s a y w e ll h a n g o n a s e c o n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Th a t is n o t i n t h e p u b l ic d o m a in b e c a u s e I
do not know …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

A n d s o D e p u t y C h ie f J u s t ic e I w o u l d

request …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

T h a t t h e f ir s t o p t io n t h a t M r Pr e to r i u s

suggested …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : W h ic h is a n d I w o u ld a d d t h is …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

Th a t th a t e v id e n c e s h o u l d s u b t r a c t a n y

e v i d e n c e th a t i m p li c a t e s M r N x a s a n a w i t h it is in t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n o r
not.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms J i b a .
20

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : M s – d id I s a y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y M r N x a s a n a .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : O h I a m s o r r y. M r N x a s a n a d o e s n o t s e e m
t o h e r e i m p l ic a t e . A n y e v i d e n c e t h a t i m p li c a t e s M s J i b a s h o u ld b e h e l d
b a c k . I a m n o t s a y i n g i t s h o u ld e x c is e d o r n o t d e a l t w i th . I t s h o u l d b e
h e l d b a c k . Th e o p p o r t u n i ty f o r d e a l in g w i t h s u c h e v id e n c e a t t h is f o r u m

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
w i ll c o m e .

It may be next week.

I d o n o t k n o w w h a t t h e – w h a t th e

s c h e d u l e o f th e C o m m i s s i o n i s . I t m a y b e n e x t w e e k . I t m a y b e in t w o
weeks’ time.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : B y t h a t ti m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

T h e l e g a l t e a m fo r M s J ib a w o u l d h a v e

performed all these exercises …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : A n d th e r e f o r e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

T h e m a t te r c a n c o n t in u e w i t h o u t a n y

d is c o m f o r t fr o m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : M s J i b a ’s t e a m .
CHAIRPERSON:

A s w e s p e a k w h a t I a m i n c l in e d t o a ll o w is

M r Pr e to r i u s fir s t o p ti o n w h i c h y o u – y o u h a v e n o p r o b l e m w i t h b u t
w h e n I s a y t h a t I a m in c li n e d t o s a y th e r e s h o u ld b e n o p r o b l e m i f t h e
e v i d e n c e i n c lu d e s e v i d e n c e o r i t i n c lu d e s m a t t e r s t h a t h a v e b e e n d e a l t
20

w i t h in c o u r t j u d g m e n t s o r a ff id a v i ts f il e d in – i n c o u r t o n m a t t e r s th a t
a r e i n th e p u b lic d o m a i n a lr e a d y i n r e s p e c t o f w h ic h w h e t h e r i t i s
M s J i b a o r t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t o r M r Mr w e b i w h e r e t h e y w o u l d h a v e
h a d a c h a n c e t o d e a l w i th . I n r e g a r d t o t h e p o i n t y o u m a k e n a m e ly t h a t
a s y o u s ta n d th e r e y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t th o s e m a y b e b e c a u s e y o u
h a v e n o t h a d a c h a n c e t o h a v e a l o o k I a m w o n d e r i n g w h e th e r t h e r e w il l

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
b e n o p r o b l e m i f w e p r o c e e d o n t h e b a s i s t h a t M r Pr e to r i u s w o u ld b e
c a u ti o u s to lo o k a t – to d e a l – t o le a d t h e w i t n e s s in r e g a r d t o m a t t e r s
t h a t f a ll w it h t h a t - w i t h i n th a t a n d y o u m i g h t n o t b e a w a r e o f i t a s l o n g
a s i t c a n b e s h o w n t h a t t h e r e – t h e r e a r e m a t te r s t h a t a r e d e a l t w i t h i n
ju d g m e n t s o r in a ffi d a v i ts th a t h a v e b e e n i n c o u r t a n d s o o n a n d t h e n to
the – and therefore that for now there should not be any new matters
d e a lt w i t h th a t i m p li c a t e th e p e r s o n s w h o h a v e n o t b e e n c o v e r e d i n t h a t
w a y b u t t h a t w h e n M r N x a s a n a c o m e s b a c k e v e r y b o d y w h o is i m p lic a t e d
h a s h a d a c h a n c e th e n th e y c a n - h e c a n c o v e r a l l n e w m a t t e r s . T h a t is
10

t h e in c li n a ti o n I h a v e . W h a t d o y o u s a y a b o u t t h a t ?
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s D e p u ty C h ie f J u s t ic e f a r b e i t f o r m e t o
d o u b t m y le a r n e d fr ie n d Mr P r e t o r iu s ’ i n t e n ti o n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : O r i n te g r i ty – I e v e n h e s it a t e t o b r in g i n t h e
w o r d in t e g r i ty.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : I a m q u i t e c o n f id e n t t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : H e w il l d o p r e c is e ly t h a t a n d s t e e r o ff …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Aw a y f r o m n e w m a t te r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : M i g h t i t n o t b e a s o r t o f b e l t a n d r a c is t j o b
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

To r e q u e s t M r P r e t o r iu s t o w h e n h e p u ts

s u c h q u e s t io n s t o Mr N x a s a n a t h a t h a v e p r e v i o u s ly b e e n o r d e a li n g w i th
m a t t e r s th a t a r e p r e v io u s ly o f r e a s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : O n a ffi d a v i t o r i n j u d g m e n ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : P e r h a p s p r e f ix t h e q u e s ti o n . I k n o w i t m a y
b e a to u g h a s k …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

B e c a u s e h e m a y b e h e d i d n o t p r e p a r e it

t h a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

To p r e f ix t h e q u e s t io n w i t h Mr N x a s a n a i n

t h e m a t te r o f s o a n d s o in th e j u d g m e n t w it h o u t c i ti n g a p a r ti c u la r
paragraph …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

T h is m a t te r w a s d e a l t w i t h c a n I a s k y o u

t h is q u e s t i o n t h e n a s k h i m o r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : I n a p a r ti c u l a r a ff id a v i t i n a m a tt e r t h is w a s
d e a lt w i t h …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : S o t h a t w h e n I k e e p m y n o t e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : I k n o w e x a c t ly w h ic h j u d g m e n t to g o t o …

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : To s a tis f y m y s e l f a n d th e l e g a l te a m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A :

T h a t t h a t m a t t e r w a s in d e e d – h a d i n d e e d

b e e n d e a l t w i t h p r e v i o u s ly a n d t h a t it is n o t n e w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

I – I t h i n k w h a t w e w o u ld b e i m p o r ta n t is t h a t

t h e w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e is li m i te d t o t h o s e p a r a m e te r s .
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h e t h e r M r Pr e t o r i u s r e fe r s t o w h ic h a ff id a v i t a n d

w h ic h m a t t e r a n d s o o n a n d s o o n i f h e – if h e c a n . I a m s u r e t h e r e is
n o p r o b le m b u t if h e i s n o t a b l e t o a s l o n g a s in d u e c o u r s e y o u c a n b e
in f o r m e d …
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y t h a t r e l a te d t o t h a t. T h a t r e l a t e d t o t h a t. S o
as long as that can be done it should be fine.
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : N o I a m h a p p y w i t h t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e ? Yo u w o u ld b e h a p p y w i t h t h a t?
A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . I t h i n k w e p r o c e e d . Mr P r e t o r iu s …

20

A D V V U YA N I N G A LWA N A : Th a n k y o u D e p u ty C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u Mr N g a l w a n a . M r P r e t o r i u s w h a t d o y o u …
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : C h a ir j u s t …
CHAIRPERSON:

S a y t h a t i s t h e i n c li n a ti o n I h a v e b u t y o u h a v e

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

J u s t a li t t le m o r e b r i e fl y t h a n

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
w h a t h a s o c c u r r e d s o f a r. T h e fir s t t h i n g is y o u w i ll m a k e a n o r d e r. I
w i ll a b i d e b y t h a t o r d e r. I c a n n o t a b i d e b y s u g g e s t io n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n r e g a r d to w h a t w o u l d b e

appropriate.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja, no, no but I want to hear what you have to say

a b o u t s u g g e s ti o n s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

S o l e t m e d o t h a t th e n .

Fi r s tl y i t is i m p o r ta n t to p l a c e o n r e c o r d t h i s is s u e o f ti m i n g .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th e r e i s a s u g g e s ti o n th a t t h e

w i t n e s s ’ e v i d e n c e h a s b e e n t i m e d i n te n ti o n a l ly o r u n i n t e n t io n a l ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I do not know how you time

evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : E v i d e n c e u n i n t e n ti o n a lly …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I n o r d e r t o p r e j u d ic e M s J i b a .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : L e t m e s t a te q u i te c le a r ly th a t is
not the case.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

I

assurance and …

Page 106 of 136

can

give

th e

C h a ir

an

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d a s y o u k n o w C h a ir i t w a s a t
y o u r d ir e c ti o n t h a t t h is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I – I h a v e m a d e t h a t q u i te c l e a r.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a t th is h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : In a n y e v e n t t h e ti m i n g w a s n o t
a c h o ic e o f th e w i t n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e ti m i n g w a s i m p o s e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S

SC:

On

th e

w i tn e s s

by

th e

Commission …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A t y o u r r e q u e s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

H e h a d n o t h in g t o d o w it h i t a t

a l l.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e t h ir d i s t h a t i n a n y e v e n t h e
c o n s e q u e n c e s o f e v id e n c e b e i n g l e d u n d e r o a t h o r u n d e r a ffi r m a ti o n a t
a p u b li c in q u ir y o f t h i s n a t u r e w o u l d i n e v i ta b l y a ff e c t o t h e r is s u e s i n
o th e r ju r is d i c ti o n s a n d th a t m u s t b e s o . T h o s e c o n s e q u e n c e s c a n n e v e r
b e a n e x c u s e o r a g r o n d f o r n o t l e a d in g e v id e n c e t h a t w e a r e o b li g e d to
le a d h e r e b y v ir tu e o f s ta t u te b u t t h a t is n o t a n is s u e t h a t w e n e e d d o

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
any more than note for the present.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th e s e c o n d p o i n t th a t w e w o u l d
lik e to e m p h a s i s a s a l e g a l te a m C h a ir i s t h e v e r y n a t u r e o f a p u b li c
in q u ir y.

It in v o lv e s e n c o u r a g i n g w i t n e s s e s to c o m e fo r w a r d , t o g iv e

e v i d e n c e w i th in i ts te r ms o f r e fe r e n c e .

I t is in e v i ta b le t h e s ta t u te

c o n te m p l a t e s t h a t th e te r ms o f r e f e r e n c e c o n te m p l a t e d t h e r e g u l a ti o n s
c o n te m p l a t e d t h e r u l e s c o n t e m p l a te d t h a t p e r s o n s w i ll b e i m p l ic a t e d b y
e v i d e n c e a d v e r s e t o t h a t – t o t h a t p e r s o n s i n te r e s t s . I t is th e v e r y s t u ff
10

o f t h i s i n q u ir y th a t e v i d e n c e w o u ld b e l e d i m p li c a t in g o t h e r p e r s o n s in
many cases

n e g a t iv e l y o r

a d v e r s e ly.

T h a t p r i n c ip l e c a n n o t b e

u n d e r m i n e d b y a n y o r d e r t h a t y o u w o u ld m a k e C h a ir o r a n y t h in g t h a t
t h e l e g a l t e a m c o u ld a g r e e t o .

P r o v i d e d w i t n e s s e s a r e tr e a t e d fa ir l y

a n d th o s e r u l e s a r e t h e r e f o r t h a t p u r p o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : S o C h a ir a ll w e s u b m i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I s t h a t t h e p r in c i p l e m u s t r e m a in
sacrosanct.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t w i tn e s s e s m u s t n o t b e

p r e v e n t e d fr o m g i v i n g s u c h e v id e n c e a s t h e y a r e e n ti tl e d t o g iv e
( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t r e m e m b e r Mr N g a lw a n a a ls o m a d e i t c l e a r

t h a t th e y a r e n o t s e e k i n g t o p r e v e n t th e l e a d i n g o f e v i d e n c e …

Page 108 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : W e l l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is j u s t th e ti m i n g .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : N o t h a t is – t h a t is c le a r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : A n d t h e n a s o lu t io n t h a t w e w i ll
reach …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : T h a t p r in c i p l e w il l b e m e t b u t th e
p u b lic o u t t h e r e is l is t e n i n g t o t h i s a r g u m e n t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t c a n n e v e r b e t h e c a s e th a t th e
p u b lic s h o u l d b e d is c o u r a g e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Fr o m c o m in g fo r w a r d t o g iv e

t h e ir e v i d e n c e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I n f e a r t h a t p r io r t o t h e ir g iv in g

evidence …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e y w i ll s o m e h o w c o m e u n d e r

s o m e s o r t o f ju d ic i a l o r o th e r a tt a c k a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

S o m e h o w t h e ir i n fl u e n c e w i ll –

t h e ir e v id e n c e w ill b e i n fl u e n c e d i n th a t w a y. S o t h e p r i n c i p l e t h a t m u s t
r e m a in s a c r o s a n c t – w e s u b m i t – is t h a t w i t n e s s e s m u s t b e li e v e t h a t

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
they

are

free

to

come

here

and

give

evidence

whatever

i ts

consequences and however damaging it may be to other people and I
b e li e v e i n t h e s o l u ti o n w e h a v e r e a c h e d t h a t is s a c r o s a n c t .

I t is

s u b j e c t o n ly t o o n e d u ty a n d t h a t is th e d u ty o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n to a c t
f a ir ly a n d t h a t w e a r e tr y i n g to d o i n th a t c a s e .

T h e l a s t p o i n t th a t I

w o u ld l ik e t o m a k e C h a ir is t h a t I w il l o b v i o u s ly a b i d e b y y o u r r u li n g b u t
t h e i n te n ti o n i s n o t t o d e a l w it h a n y t h i n g b e y o n d t h e i n t e r a c ti o n s t h a t
g a v e r is e t o t h e m a n y c o u r t a p p l ic a t i o n s a n d d e c i s i o n s o f t h e c o u r t a n d
in fa c t in s o f a r a s a j u d g m e n t d e a ls w i t h a p a r t ic u l a r i s s u e o n e m a y
10

a s s u m e t h a t t h a t is i n th e p u b lic d o m a in .

I t i s a m a t t e r ( i n d is ti n c t)

t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u s t w a n t t o e m p h a s is e a g a i n t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n

s e e k s t o s tr ik e a b a la n c e b e t w e e n v a r i o u s o r a m o n g v a r i o u s in t e r e s ts
a n d o n e o f t h e s e is th a t i t s e e k s to e n s u r e f a i r n e s s t o a ll p a r ti e s
in c l u d i n g i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s . I h a v e m a d e i t c l e a r o v e r t h e p a s t y e a r
o r s o b o t h i n m e d i a b r ie f in g s a n d i n t h i s v e n u e t h a t i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s
w i ll b e d e a l t w i t h f a ir ly a s w e l l. T h e y m u s t b e d e a l t w it h fa ir l y a n d t h a t
n o b o d y w i ll h a v e fi n d i n g s m a d e a g a in s t t h e m j u s t b e c a u s e o f w h a t t h e
m e d i a m a y b e s a y i n g a b o u t th e m o r a g a in s t t h e m . A n y fi n d i n g s th a t w ill
20

b e m a d e w i ll b e m a d e o n t h e b a s is o f e v i d e n c e le d in t h e C o m m i s s i o n
a n d th r o u g h o u t w e c o n ti n u e to tr y a n d b e f a ir to e v e r y b o d y. I t h o u g h t I
m u s t j u s t e m p h a s is e th a t a n d a g a in t o t h e e x te n t th a t t h e r e m a y h a v e
b e e n a n y t h i n k in g t h a t M r N x a s a n a – M r N x a s a n a ’s b e i n g h e r e is t i m e d
b y a n y b o d y t o c o in c i d e w i t h a n y t h in g .

A g a i n I in d ic a t e t h a t h e w a s

c a l l e d b e c a u s e I g a v e d ir e c ti o n s t h a t h e a n d c e r ta in o th e r w i t n e s s e s

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
w h o m w e a r e n o t m e n ti o n i n g n o w b e c a l l e d a n d I h a v e b e e n t o l d t h a t
s o m e o f t h e m a r e n o t a v a i la b l e . S o t h e y w i ll – m a y h a v e t o b e c a l le d
la t e r.

S o w e w il l c o n t i n u e t o h a v e s i t u a t io n s w h e r e a p e r s o n w h o i s

i m p l ic a t e d o r n o t i m p li c a t e d b u t a p e r s o n w h o i n t h e v i e w o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n h a s k n o w l e d g e o r i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t m a y b e h e lp f u l i n t h e
in q u ir y o f t h e C o m m i s s io n m a y b e c a ll e d t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e . S o
it i s n o t t h e l a s t ti m e th a t a p e r s o n is c a l l e d t o g i v e e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n s o d ir e c ts b u t f a ir n e s s t o a l l i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s is v e r y
i m p o r t a n t b u t a s I s a y t h e r e is f a ir n e s s t h a t m u s t b e t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t
10

t o g e th e r w i th a ll p r a c t ic a l it i e s a n d c o n s t r a in ts t h a t th e C o m m i s s i o n h a s
– w it h in w h ic h t h e C o m m is s i o n m u s t o p e r a t e . S o w h a t I a m – t h e s e a r e
ju s t r e m a r k s t h a t I c o n s i d e r i m p o r t a n t t o m a k e . W it h r e g a r d t o h o w w e
p r o c e e d I c o n fir m t h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o f o ll o w t h e o p t io n – o p t io n o n e
t h a t M r Pr e t o r i u s m e n t io n e d w i th w h i c h M r N g a lw a n a d o e s n o t h a v e a
p r o b le m s u b j e c t t o t h e r e m a r k s h e m a d e a n d o n t h e u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t
I b e li e v e w e – a l l t h r e e o f u s h a v e a c h ie v e d h e r e i n t h is o p e n h e a r i n g in
t e r m s o f a ls o m a tt e r s t h a t m a y b e in th e p u b li c d o m a i n b y w a y o f c o u r t
ju d g m e n t s a n d a ff id a v i ts fi le d i n c o u r t a n d Mr P r e t o r iu s i n l e a d in g th e
e v i d e n c e o f th e w i tn e s s w i ll b e – w ill b e a r t h a t i n m i n d a s h e le a d s t h e

20

evidence of the witness.

O f p a r t ic u l a r i m p o r t a n c e i n t h i s c a s e i s t h a t

t h e l e g a l t e a m w a s n o t a b l e t o g iv e n o ti c e e v e n to s a y M r N x a s a n a
w o u ld b e g i v i n g e v id e n c e . S o m e t i m e s th e r e m a y b e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e
n o t ic e w a s g iv e n o f – i n t e r m s o f R u l e 3 .3 o f th e R u le s o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n b u t t h e 1 4 d a y s d i d n o t la p s e .

That might fall under a

d i ff e r e n t c o n s id e r a ti o n s . S o Mr N x a s a n a w ill h a v e to c o m e b a c k a t – o n

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
a l a te r d a t e to f in a l is e h is e v i d e n c e t h a t w o u ld c o v e r a n y m a t te r s t h a t
w i ll fa ll o u ts i d e o f t h e p a r a m e t e r s t h a t I h a v e in d i c a t e d a s d is c u s s e d
h e r e a t t h e o p e n in g h e a r in g w i t h M r Pr e t o r iu s a n d M r N g a l w a n a . T h a t
is h o w w e a r e g o i n g t o p r o c e e d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u l d l ik e t o t a k e a fi v e m i n u t e a d j o u r n m e n t a n d

t h e n w e w i ll – w e w il l c o n t in u e .

W e w i ll j u s t t a k e a fiv e m i n u t e

adjournment. We adjourn.
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
10

INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M r Pr e t o r i u s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir a h o u s e k e e p in g m a t t e r,

I’ v e d e c i d e d to d e a l w it h s o m e t h i n g t h a t I h a d i n t e n d e d t o d e a l w i t h a t
t h e c o n c lu s i o n o f t h e w i tn e s s e s ’ e v i d e n c e a n d th a t ’s t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l
Court judgment, one can safely assume that matters commented on by
t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t a n d c o n t a i n e d i n th e j u d g e m e n t , p a r t ic u l a r ly
a r e m a tt e r s i n th e p u b lic d o m a in . T h e y d o n o t , i n a n y e v e n t , i m p li c a t e
M s J i b a o r a n y o t h e r i n d i v i d u a l a p a r t fr o m t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t in a n y
sense at all and those are merely comments.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l y o u a r e , o f c o u r s e , n o t s u g g e s ti n g t h a t w h a t

y o u m e a n i s w h a t e v e r it is y o u a r e g o in g t o r e f e r to is s o m e th i n g t h a t
h a s b e e n s a id b y t h e C o u r t a n d is i n th e p u b li c d o m a in … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d a ll p a r ti e s c o n c e r n e d h a v e

a n d a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o p r e s e n t t h e ir v e r s io n s , a r g u e f u l ly a n d th e r e s u l t
o f a ll th a t p r o c e s s i n th e h i g h e s t C o u r t is w h a t I’ m g o i n g t o r e fe r t o .

Page 112 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

C h a ir i n a d d i ti o n t o t h a t Mr

N x a s a n a h i m s e l f r a is e s a c o n c e r n th a t h e ’s h e r e a t s o m e p e r s o n a l c o s t
a n d a t th e r e q u e s t o f t h e C o m m is s i o n , v o l u n t e e r e d to c o m e f o r w a r d a n d
g iv e n th a t h is e v id e n c e m a y n o w s tr e tc h o v e r t o a n o t h e r d a y it ’s a
m a t t e r o f s o m e c o n c e r n a n d I w o u l d j u s t w is h t o p l a c e t h a t o n r e c o r d i t
was communicated to me during the recent short adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s m a y b e b e fo r e y o u p r o c e e d le t m e t a lk t o h i m .

M r N x a s a n a , i t a p p e a r s t h a t i t ’s i n e v it a b l e t h a t y o u m a y h a v e to c o m e
10

b a c k , n o w M r P r e t o r i u s t e lls m e t h a t y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h a t. I t
d o e s n ’t m e a n y o u ’l l c o m e b a c k to m o r r o w s o y o u m a y h a v e i n t e n d e d t o
s p e n d o n ly t o d a y a t th e C o m m i s s i o n b u t i n t e r m s o f w h e n y o u c o m e
b a c k y o u r a v a il a b i li ty w o u l d b e l o o k e d a t a s w e l l . D o e s y o u r c o n c e r n
r e m a in , n o t w i t h s t a n d in g ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s C h a ir i t r e m a i n s

C h a ir, n o t w i th s t a n d i n g . C h a i r a s I h a v e e x p l a in e d t h a t I r u n a p r a c tic e
a n d u n f o r t u n a t e l y I ’ m a s o le p r o p r i e to r o f m y p r a c tic e , m y p r a c t ic e i s
s u ff e r i n g a s I a m h e r e . I n fa c t, I ’v e b e e n h e r e , n o t o n ly t o d a y, t w o d a y s
a lr e a d y.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

I n c l u d i n g y e s te r d a y.

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

I n c lu d in g y e s t e r d a y.

Ye s .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER N XASANA:

A n d t h e y s a y t h a t it i s

in e v it a b l e a n d i t ’s a n t ic ip a te d t h a t I’ ll h a v e to c o m e b a c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s – n o I t h i n k i t ’s u n fo r t u n a t e t h a t t h i s i s t h e

Page 113 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
s i tu a ti o n a n d I a p p r e c ia t e w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n y o u a r e a
s o l e p r a c ti ti o n e r i n a l e g a l fir m w h e n y o u a r e n o t th e r e y o u a r e n o t
e a r n in g in c o m e a n d th e r e a r e p e o p l e t h a t y o u h a v e t o p a y a t t h e e n d o f
t h e m o n t h , t h e r e a r e b il ls t o b e p a i d b u t t h e l e g a l t e a m m a y h a v e t o
h a v e a l o o k , I m e a n , i f s o m e b o d y g o e s t o g iv e e v i d e n c e i n C o u r t ,
t h e r e ’s p r o v i s i o n f o r w i t n e s s f e e s a n d I w o u l d i m a g in e t h a t th e
C o m m i s s i o n s h o u ld h a v e s i m i l a r p r o v i s i o n s th a t a r e a p p li c a b l e t o i t . I
d o n ’t k n o w w h a t l i mi t s th e r e a r e b u t I w o u l d h a v e i m a g in e d th a t t h e y
s h o u l d b e – th e i r r a t e s h o u l d b e s u c h t h a t it s h o u l d , a s fa r a s p e r s o n a l ,
10

p l a c e th e p e r s o n – th e w i t n e s s in t h e p o s i ti o n h e o r s h e w o u l d h a v e
b e e n i n i f s h e h a d n o t b e e n c a ll e d to c o m e a n d g i v e e v id e n c e b u t I
t h i n k t h a t p r o b a b l y a t t h is s t a g e t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g m o r e o n e c a n s a y o th e r
t h a n th a t , t h a t a v e n u e s h o u l d b e e x p l o r e d t h a t m i g h t n o t f u lly c o v e r
y o u r s it u a ti o n b u t i t mi g h t g o to a c e r ta i n p o i n t , is t h a t r ig h t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s I th i n k th a t m u s t b e e x p l o r e d , I c a n s e e n o

r e a s o n w h y t h e r e w o u l d n ’ t b e a s i m il a r p r o v is i o n a p p l ic a b l e t o th e
C o m m i s s i o n b u t t h e l e g a l t e a m c a n l o o k in t o t h a t a n d y o u c a n b e i n
t o u c h w i t h th e m .
20

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

W e ll l o o k a t t h e a p p li c a b l e l a w.

Ye s l o o k a t t h e a p p li c a b l e l a w j a , t h a n k y o u .

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Thank you.

C h a i r th e f in a l

m a t t e r is th a t , M r N x a s a n a is b o o k e d o n a f li g h t a t 7 o ’ c l o c k s o i f w e
m a y b e c a u s e w e ’r e g o in g to c o m e b a c k a n o th e r d a y a n y w a y, a d j o u r n a t

Page 114 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
t h e n o r m a l ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a t h a t ’s fi n e .

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

O n e s e c o n d M r P r e t o r i u s , th a n k y o u .

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r N x a s a n a

a t p a g e 11 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u d e a l w it h t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s g iv in g
r is e t o y o u r u l t i m a te s u s p e n s i o n b y th e P r e s i d e n t .

F o r th e m o m e n t

w e ’r e n o t g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h th e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u in t e n d e d le a d i n g
c o n c e r n i n g t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h ic h s a y – w h i c h y o u s a y w o u ld h a v e
10

e x p l a i n e d o r w o u ld e x p l a in t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s a c ti o n s b e c a u s e t h o s e a r e
m a t t e r s w h ic h i m p li c a t e o t h e r p a r t ie s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s b u t j u s t f o r

c o r r e c t io n I w a s n ’t u l t i m a te ly s u s p e n d e d , j u s t fo r t h e r e c o r d .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

Ye s t h e r e w a s a n i n t e n t io n t o

s u s p e n d a n d th a t w a s t h e s u b je c t m a t t e r o f l i ti g a t io n .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

Th a t i s c o r r e c t y e s .

I ’ m s o r r y i f I p u t i t t h a t w a y. Yo u

a ls o d e a l w i th t h e s t e p t h a t y o u t o o k t o e n s u r e th a t i n a n y p r o c e s s t h a t
o c c u r r e d in r e l a ti o n to y o u r e m p l o y m e n t y o u a tt e m p t e d to e n s u r e t h a t
y o u w o u l d r e c e iv e a f a i r h e a r i n g .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Yo u d e a l w it h t h e i n q u ir y t h a t

w a s i n te n d e d to b e h e l d u n d e r A d v o c a te N a z e e r C a s s i m .

Page 115 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

W e w o n ’ t g o in t o t h a t f o r th e

m o m e n t s i m p ly b e c a u s e I ’ d lik e t o k e e p t h e e v i d e n c e i n i ts p r o p e r
s e q u e n c e . Yo u t h e n d e a l w i t h th e s i tu a ti o n a t th e N PA d u r i n g y o u r te r m
o f o ff ic e w h ic h h a s b e e n a s u b je c t o f c o m m e n t b y t h e C o u r ts a n d
c o n c e r n s th e c o n d u c t o f p e r s o n s w h o a r e i m p lic a t e d b y y o u r s t a t e m e n t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

I ’ m n o t g o i n g t o t e s t t h e f in e

d is t in c ti o n s b e tw e e n w h a t a r e fa c ts w it h in y o u r k n o w l e d g e t h a t h a v e n ’t
10

been canvassed in Court and what evidence has been canvassed in
C o u r t , th a t ’s p e r h a p s t o o fi n e a d is t in c t i o n t o d r a w a t th is s t a g e .

So

w h a t I ’ d lik e to d o i s , ju s t t o p l a c e o n r e c o r d a s i s c o m m o n k n o w l e d g e
t h a t y o u u l t i m a te ly e n t e r e d i n t o w h a t h a s b e e n t e r m e d , a s e t tl e m e n t
agreement.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
T h a t s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t

in v o lv e d p a y m e n t t o y o u o f a s u m o f m o n e y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t is s u e c a m e b e f o r e th e

C o u r ts a n d w h a t c a m e b e f o r e t h e C o u r t s w e r e n o t o n ly th e t e r m s o f t h e
s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t b u t t h e f a c t o f t h e s e t t le m e n t a g r e e m e n t , t h e
c ir c u m s ta n c e s in w h ic h i t t o o k p la c e a n d it s la w f u l n e s s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h a t l it i g a t io n o f w h i c h y o u

w e r e a p a r t b u t n o t t h e p r i n c ip l e a p p l ic a n t fi n a l ly f o u n d i ts w a y t o t h e

Page 116 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s s o .
A n d i n a j u d g m e n t o f th e

C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t w h ic h is c o n t a i n e d i n t h e b u n d l e a t p a g e 8 5 t h e
C o n s t i tu t io n a l

Court

dealt

with

the

evidence

placed

b e fo r e

it … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

O n e s e c o n d M r P r e to r i u s , t h a n k y o u , y o u m a y

proceed.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
10

T h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t d e a lt

w i t h t h e e v i d e n c e th a t h a d b e e n p l a c e d b e fo r e it , d e a lt w i t h t h e
ju d g e m e n ts o f t h e C o u r t b e lo w a n d c a m e t o i ts o w n f in d in g s i n r e l a ti o n
t o t h e is s u e s b e fo r e i t , p r i n c i p a ll y m a t t e r s r e l e v a n t t o t h e N a t i o n a l
P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty a n d i n p a r ti c u l a r r e l e v a n t t o t h e e v e n t u a l e n d i n g
o f y o u r t e r m o f o ff ic e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t i s s o C h a ir.

A n d I ’d l ik e t o g o t h e r e d ir e c t ly

if I m a y, t o d e a l w i t h , fir s tly s o m e g e n e r a l c o m m e n t s m a d e b y t h e
m a jo r i ty o f t h e C o u r t u n d e r t h e h a n d o f M a d l a n g a J , J u s ti c e M a d l a n g a
a n d i f o n e c a n g o t o p a r a g r a p h s ix .
20

T h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t a n d i ts

m a jo r i ty t h e r e s a y s , a n d t h a t ’s a t p a g e – s o r r y C h a ir, t h a t ’s a t p a g e 9 2
o f t h e b u n d le w h e r e t h e b a c k g r o u n d i s d e a lt w i t h .
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Paragraph six reads,

“ T h e e v e n t th a t a r e a t t h e c e n t r e o f th e s e p r o c e e d in g s a r e i n
t h e p u b l ic d o m a i n , t h e j u d g m e n t o f t h e H i g h C o u r t n o te s t h a t i t

Page 117 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
w a s c o m m o n c a u s e b e f o r e th a t C o u r t t h a t s i n c e S e p t e m b e r
2 0 0 7 t h e r e c e n t h is t o r y a t t h e N PA , a n d i t q u o t e s t h e j u d g m e n t
o f t h e H ig h C o u r t , h a s b e e n o n e o f p a r a ly s in g i n s t a b il i ty ” ,
T h a t i s t h e q u o te , t h a t ju d g m e n t g iv e s d e t a i l o f t h a t h is t o r y. I f
w e m a y g o th e n t o p a r a g r a p h s e v e n i t r e a d s ,
“In

J u ly

2014

w i th i n

about

o n ly

nine

m o n th s

of

h is

a p p o i n t m e n t, a p r o c e s s c a lc u l a t e d t o r e m o v e M r N x a s a n a
commenced”,
That process would have been the substance of your evidence
10

t o d a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t

In the main at least,

“ T h e t h e n P r e s id e n t , th e j u d g m e n t c o n ti n u e s , M r J a c o b Z u m a
in f o r m e d M r N x a s a n a o f h is i n t e n t io n t o i n s ti t u te a n i n q u ir y
in t o h i s fi t n e s s t o h o l d o ffi c e , t h is w a s f o l lo w e d b y a n o tic e
t h a t t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t w a s c o n s i d e r in g s u s p e n d in g M r
N x a s a n a p e n d i n g fi n a li s a t io n o f h e i n q u ir y.

The former

P r e s i d e n t s a i d th a t s u s p e n s io n w a s n e c e s s a r y i n o r d e r to
m a in t a i n th e i n t e g r i ty a n d g o o d a d m i n is tr a t io n o f t h e N PA ” ,
20

Yo u r e v i d e n c e w o u ld h a v e d e a l t w i t h t h a t c o n te n ti o n i n s o m e
d e t a i l b e c a u s e y o u , i n y o u r e v i d e n c e , w o u ld h a v e t o d a y, a n d w i ll in t h e
f u t u r e g iv e e v id e n c e r e g a r d in g w h a t y o u r e g a r d a s th e t r u e r e a s o n s f o r
what occurred.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t.

T h e n o tic e a l s o s p e c i fi e d t h a t

Page 118 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
t h e i n q u ir y s o u g h t t o e s t a b li s h w h e th e r c e r ta i n is s u e s w e r e c o n s o n a n t
w i t h t h e c o n s c ie n ti o u s n e s s a n d i n t e g r i ty o f a n in c u m b e n t i n th e o ff ic e o f
t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s a s r e q u ir e d b y t h e N PA
A c t, w e ’v e r e f e r r e d t o t h a t s e c ti o n o f t h e c o n s ti t u t i o n a lr e a d y M r
Nxasana.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

T h e is s u e s w e r e ,

“ M r N x a s a n a p r e v i o u s c r i m i n a l c o n v ic t io n f o r v i o l e n t c o n d u c t
a l le g e d ly u n b e c o m i n g a n d d i v is iv e c o m m e n t s w h i c h h a d t h e
10

e ffe c t o f b r in g i n g t h e N PA i n t o d i s r e p u t e m a d e b y Mr N x a s a n a
a n d r e p o r t e d i n t h e m e d ia a n d a l l e g e d n o n - d is c l o s u r e
o f f a c ts a n d c i r c u ms t a n c e s o f p r o s e c u t io n s w h ic h Mr N x a s a n a
h a d fa c e d p r e v i o u s ly ” .
N o w i n y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u w il l g o i n to s o m e d e ta il in r e g a r d t o
t h e s e is s u e s , i n p a r tic u la r t h e l a c k o f p a r ti c u la r i ty t h a t y o u a l l e g e d i n
C o u r t p r o c e e d i n g s y o u h a d b e e n s u b j e c t e d to .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s s o .

A n d in f a c t r e f e r e n c e i s m a d e t o

t h a t i n t h e la t t e r p a r t o f p a r a g r a p h e ig h t o n p a g e 9 4 o f th e b u n d l e
20

w h e r e th e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t s a y s ,
“Mr Nxasana approached the High Court seeking an order
c o m p e l li n g f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a t o p r o v id e th e r e q u i r e d
p a r t ic u l a r i ty

and

s u s p e n d in g

him

i n t e r d ic t in g
u n t il

he

the

had

p a r t ic u l a r i ty ” ,

Page 119 of 136

former
fu r n is h e d

President
him

with

fr o m
t h is

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
T h a t p a r ti c u l a r i ty, M r N x a s a n a is t h a t to w h ic h w e h a v e j u s t
r e fe r r e d .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

T h e a p p l ic a ti o n w a s n o t – t h a t

a p p lic a ti o n w a s n o t p u r s u e d t o fi n a li t y, t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t c h a n g e d
t a c t in l a te 2 0 1 4 , h e p r o p o s e d th a t t h e d is p u te b e t w e e n h i m a n d M r
N x a s a n a b e m e d i a t e d , M r N x a s a n a a c c e d e d t o t h is p r o p o s a l , is t h a t
correct?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d th e n p a r a g r a p h n i n e w h ic h

is o n p a g e 9 4 o f t h e e x h i b it E E r e a d s ,
“ I t a p p e a r s fr o m a l e t t e r w r i t t e n o n 1 0 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 4 b y
a tt o r n e y s a c ti n g f o r M r N x a s a n a t h a t f o r me r P r e s i d e n t h a d
e n g a g e d Mr N x a s a n a to g e t h i m t o a g r e e t o v a c a t e o ff ic e . In
t h e l e tt e r Mr N x a s a n a m a d e i t p l a i n t h a t h e d i d n o t w a n t t o
v a c a t e o ffic e a s th e r e w a s n o b a s is f o r h i m to . H e s t a te d t h a t
he

would,

h o w e v e r,

consider

s t e p p in g

down

o n ly

if

he

w a s fu ll y c o m p e n s a t e d f o r t h e r e m a in d e r o f t h e c o n tr a c t
period”,
Is th a t a c o r r e c t r e c o r d o f th e f a c t s a s fa r a s y o u a r e

20

c o n c e r n e d , I w il l g iv e y o u a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o e x p a n d o n i t i n a m o m e n t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

Ye s t h a t i s a c o r r e c t

record.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A t is s u e in th e li t ig a ti o n -

in

p a r t a t le a s t w a s w h e t h e r y o u h a d r e q u e s t e d t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t t o b e

Page 120 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
a l lo w e d t o v a c a t e o ff ic e o r w h e t h e r y o u w e r e c o m p e ll e d t o v a c a t e o ff ic e
a g a in s t y o u r w i ll b u t s u b je c t t o c e r t a i n c o n d i ti o n s . I f I p u t i t c o r r e c tl y,
it ’s n o w y o u r o p p o r t u n i ty t o p l a c e t h e i s s u e s i n d is p u t e b e f o r e t h e
C h a ir.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

O k a y t h a n k y o u , C h a ir, I

a t n o s t a g e d i d I m a k e a r e q u e s t o v a c a te t h e o ff ic e t o th e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t M r J a c o b Z u m a a n d t h a t l e t t e r o f th e 1 0 t h t h a t i s r e fe r r e d t o
h e r e , I w a s a l s o i n v o l v e d in d r a f ti n g t h a t l e t t e r c o n fi r mi n g t h e
d is c u s s io n t h a t w e ’ d h a d w i th t h e P r e s id e n t a n d t h e c o m p a n y –
10

President and

Mr

Harley

together

with

m y l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e ,

t h e r e f o r e t h e C o u r t fo u n d , c o r r e c t ly, t h a t I d i d n o t m a k e a n y r e q u e s t , I
n e v e r m a d e th a t r e q u e s t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e p o s i ti o n i s s u m m a r i s e d i n

p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a l C o u r t j u d g m e n t a n d t h a t a p p e a r s a t
page 95 of Bundle EE – Exhibit EE it reads,
“ I t m u s t b e n o t e d t h a t r i g h t fr o m th e o n s e t a n d th r o u g h o u t t h e
e n t ir e n e g o ti a ti o n p r o c e s s t h a t c u l m i n a te d in t h e s e t tl e m e n t
a g r e e m e n t , Mr N x a s a n a u n e q u iv o c a l ly s t a te d t h a t h e d i d n o t
w i s h to r e s ig n a n d t h a t h e c o n s i d e r e d h i m s e l f t o b e fi t f o r
20

o ffic e , i n s te a d h i s p r e f e r e n c e w a s f o r f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Zu m a ’s
a l le g a ti o n t h a t h e w a s n o lo n g e r f it f o r o ffi c e , t o b e t e s t e d in a
f o r m a l in q u ir y a s p r o p o s e d b y th e fo r m e r P r e s id e n t ” ,
Is t h a t th e p r o p o s e d C a s s i m i n q u i r y ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

The summary of the judgment

Page 121 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
c o n ti n u e s , o r th e j u d g m e n t c o n ti n u e s r a t h e r,
“ T h r o u g h o u t h e p r o te s t e d t h e e x i s t e n c e o f a fa c tu a l o r l e g a l
b a s is

f o r h i m t o v a c a t e o ff ic e , a ls o h e

d is a v o w e d

any

in v o c a t io n b y h i m in S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 8 ) o f t h e N PA A c t t o
v o l u n ta r i ly v a c a t e o ff ic e .

I t is s o , o f c o u r s e t h a t h e d i d

in d i c a t e t h a t h e w o u l d r e s i g n o n l y i f h e w a s p a i d t h e f u l l s a l a r y
f o r t h e r e m a i n d e r o f h is t e r m o f o ff ic e ” .
D o e s t h a t fa ir l y s u m m a r i s e t h e p o s i ti o n a s f a r a s y o u a r e
aware?
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t , i t f a ir l y

s u m m a r i s e s t h e p o s i ti o n .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h e n th e r e a r e s o m e g e n e r a l

c o m m e n t s C h a ir, w h ic h I t h i n k i t is a p p r o p r i a te to p l a c e b e fo r e y o u
b e c a u s e t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w il l b e l e d b y t h e l e g a l te a m d e a l s
p e r t i n e n tl y w i th t h e s e i s s u e s a n d th e s e c o m m e n t s o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l
C o u r t a r e i n s tr u c t iv e a n d v e r y i m p o r t a n t f o r th e w o r k o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n
a n d i f I m a y p l a c e th e m o n r e c o r d .
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV
20

PA U L

Ye s y o u m a y d o s o .

JOSEPH

P R E TO R I U S

SC:

At

paragraph

18

the

C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t s a y s ,
“ T h e i m p o r t a n c e o f t h e o ff ic e o f N D P P i n t h e a d m i n is tr a ti o n o f
ju s t ic e is u n d e r s c o r e d a n d a m p l i fi e d b y n o l e s s a n i n s tr u m e n t
t h a n t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n i ts e l f .

S e c t i o n 1 7 9 4 o f t h e C o n s t it u ti o n

r e q u ir e s t h a t th e r e b e N a t i o n a l l e g is l a t i o n w h ic h g u a r a n t e e s
t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e P r o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r it y. L o w e r d o w n t h e

Page 122 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
p a r a g r a p h i t r e a d s , S e c ti o n 1 7 9 4 p r o v id e s t h a t N a t io n a l
le g i s l a ti o n m u s t e n s u r e th a t th e N PA e x e r c is e s i t s f u n c ti o n s
w i t h o u t f e a r, f a v o u r o r p r e j u d ic e , th a t l e g is l a t i o n is t h e N PA
A c t.

Pr e d ic t a b ly S e c t io n 3 2 ( 1 ) A o f t h e N PA A c t r e q u ir e s

m e m b e r s o f t h e Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i ty t o c a r r y o u t t h e ir d u ti e s
w i t h o u t f e a r, f a v o u r o r p r e j u d ic e a n d s u b j e c t o n ly t o t h e
C o n s t i tu t io n a n d th e l a w ” .
Paragraph 19 reads,
“ T h i s C o u r t h a s s a id o f t h e N PA’s i n d e p e n d e n c e “ t h e r e i s a
10

C o n s t i tu t io n a l g u a r a n t e e o f in d e p e n d e n c e ” a n d a n y l e g is la t io n
o r e x e c u tiv e a c t io n in c o n s is t e n t t h e r e w i th w o u ld b e s u b j e c t t o
C o n s t i tu t io n a l c o n tr o l b y t h e C o u r ts .

T h e r e a s o n w h y th is

g u a r a n te e o f d e p e n d e n c e e x is ts i s n o t fa r t o s e e k .

Th e N PA

p l a y s a p iv o ta l r o le in th e a d m i n i s tr a t io n o f c r i mi n a l j u s t ic e
w i t h a m a l le a b l e c o r r u p t o r d y s fu n c t i o n a l P r o s e c u t in g A u t h o r i ty
m a n y c r i m i n a ls , s p e c ia ll y t h o s e h o ld i n g p o s i ti o n o f i n f l u e n c e
w i ll r a r e l y, if e v e r a n s w e r f o r t h e i r c r i m i n a l d e e d s .

E q u a l ly

f u n c t i o n a r ie s w i t h i n t h a t Pr o s e c u ti n g A u t h o r i t y m a y, a s C a s a k
s u b m i tt e d
20

be

“pressured”

into

pursuing

p r o s e c u t io n s

to

a d v a n c e a p o l it ic a l a g e n d a . A ll t h is is a n ti t h e t ic a l t o t h e r u l e
o f l a w a fo u n d in g v a lu e o f t h e R e p u b l ic . A l s o M a ll e a b ili t y,
c o r r u p ti o n

and

d y s f u n c ti o n a li ty

are

at

odds

with

the

C o n s t i tu t io n a n d ju n c t io n o f p r o s e c u ti n g w i t h o u t f e a r, fa v o u r o r
p r e j u d ic e .

T h e y a r e th u s a t v a r ia n c e w i t h t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l

r e q u ir e m e n t o f t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f th e N PA .

Page 123 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
I t c o n ti n u e s , a t t h e c e n tr e o f a n y f u n c ti o n i n g C o n s t it u ti o n a l
d e m o c r a c y a s a w e ll f u n c ti o n i n g c r i m i n a l j u s t ic e s y s te m , i n
d e m o c r a tic a l li a n c e , J a c o u b A D C J o b s e r v e d t h a t t h e o ffi c e o f
t h e N D P P “ is lo c a t e d a t t h e c o r e o f d e liv e r in g c r i m in a l ju s tic e ” ,
if y o u s u b v e r t t h e c r i m in a l j u s tic e s y s t e m , y o u s u b v e r t t h e r u le
o f l a w a n d C o n s ti t u ti o n a l d e m o c r a c y i ts e l f . U n s u r p r is in g ly th e
N PA A c t p r o s c r i b e s i m p r o p e r in t e r f e r e n c e w i t h th e p e r f o r m a n c e
o f p r o s e c u to r i a l d u t ie s . S e c t i o n 3 1 ( 1 ) B p r o v i d e s , s u b je c t t o
t h e C o n s ti t u t i o n a n d t h i s Ac t , n o o r g a n o f S t a te a n d n o m e m b e r
10

o r e m p l o y e e o f a n o r g a n o f S t a t e n o r a n y o t h e r p e r s o n s h a ll
i m p r o p e r ly i n t e r fe r e w it h , h i n d e r o r o b s tr u c t th e P r o s e c u t in g
A u t h o r i ty o r a n y m e m b e r t h e r e o f i n th e e x e r c is e , c a r r y in g o u t
o r p e r f o r m a n c e o f it s , h is o r h e r p o w e r s , d u ti e s a n d fu n c t io n s ” .
A n d th e n t h e C o u r t m a k e s s o m e f u r t h e r c o m m e n ts r e le v a n t to
y o u r e v i d e n c e M r N x a s a n a a n d g e n e r a ll y r e l e v a n t t o t h e e v i d e n c e th a t
w i ll b e le d a n d t h e c o n c e r n s r a is e d b y t h i s C o m m is s i o n . A t p a r a g r a p h
2 1 , w h ic h i s o n p a g e 9 8 o f E x h i b i t E E i t r e a d s ,
“ I m p r o p e r i n t e r fe r e n c e m a y t a k e a n y n u m b e r o f f o r m s w i t h o u t
p u r p o r ti n g

20

to

in ti m i d a ti o n ,

be
it

e x h a u s tiv e
may

c o n s is t

it

may
in

come

improper

as

downright

promises

or

in d u c e m e n t s , i t m a y ta k e t h e fo r m o f c o r r u p t ly i n fl u e n c i n g th e
d e c is i o n m a k i n g o r f u n c ti o n i n g o f t h e N PA . A l l t h e s e fo r m s a n d
o th e r s a r e p r o s c r i b e d b y a n A c t t h a t g e ts i ts a u t h o r i ty t o
g u a r a n te e

prosecutorial

C o n s t i tu t io n .

in d e p e n d e n c e

d ir e c tl y

fr o m

the

Paragraph 22 reads, another guarantee of the

Page 124 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
N D P P ’s i n d e p e n d e n c e i s p r o v i s i o n f o r s e c u r i ty o f t e n u r e .

In

S e c t io n 1 2 ( 1 ) t h e N PA A c t p r o v i d e s t h a t t h e N D P P s h a l l h o l d
o ffic e f o r a t e n y e a r n o n r e n e w a b le te r m o f o ffic e .

I t is n o w

w e ll e s t a b l is h e d i n te r m s o f t h is C o u r t ’s j u r i s p r u d e n c e t h a t
s e c u r i ty o f t e n u r e i s a n in t e g r a l fe a t u r e o f t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l
r e q u ir e m e n t o f i n d e p e n d e n c e . I n j u s t ic e a ll ia n c e , a n d t h e
r e fe r e n c e

is

given

to

th a t

case,

this

Court

h e ld

that

“ in t e r n a t io n a l s ta n d a r d s a c k n o w l e d g e t h a t g u a r a n te e d t e n u r e
a n d c o n d i ti o n s o f s e r v ic e a d e q u a te ly s e c u r e d b y l a w a r e
a m o n g s t t h e c o n d it i o n s n e c e s s a r y t o s e c u r e a n d p r o m o t e t h e

10

in d e p e n d e n c e o f j u d g e s ” , th e s e n e c e s s a r y c o n d i t io n s m u s t o f
c o u r s e b e t r u e o f t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e N PA a s w e ll . I n a
u n a n i m o u s j u d g m e n t i n M c Br id e B o s s ia l o AJ s a i d , a m o n g s t
f a c t s a i d t h a t a m o n g s t th e f a c to r s th a t a r e r e l e v a n t to t h e
in d e p e n d e n c e o f o ffi c e s o r in s ti t u t i o n s w h i c h i n t e r m s o f
c o n s ti t u ti o n a l p r e s c r ip ts m u s t b e i n d e p e n d e n t a r e “ th e m e t h o d
of

a p p o i n t m e n t,

th e

method

of

r e p o r ti n g ,

d is c i p l in a r y

p r o c e e d i n g s a n d t h e m e t h o d o f r e m o v a l fr o m o ffi c e a n d
s e c u r i ty o f t e n u r e ” ,
A n d w e ’r e h e r e d e a li n g w i t h Mr N x a s a n a i n y o u r c a s e w i t h th e

20

r e m o v a l o f y o u r s e lf fr o m o ff ic e a n d t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e ’s in w h i c h t h a t
t o o k p la c e a n d t h e la w f u l n e s s o f t h a t s e t o f e v e n ts .

Th e r e i s f u r t h e r

c o m m e n t r e l e v a n t to th e p r e v i o u s c o m m e n t in p a r a g r a p h 2 3 w h i c h
reads,
“ T h e N PA A c t h a s tw o o th e r s a li e n t f e a t u r e s t h a t h e l p s h i e l d

Page 125 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
the

N PA

fr o m

improper

i n te r f e r e n c e

n a m e ly

the

non-

r e n e w a b il i ty o f t h e t e n - y e a r t e r m o f o ff ic e o f t h e N D P P a n d
c e r t a i n s a fe g u a r d s o n th e r e m o v a l o f t h e N D P P f r o m o ff ic e ” ,
A n d t h e n t h e v a r io u s m e t h o d s t h a t p r o v i d e f o r – a r e p r o v i d e d
f o r t e r m i n a ti o n o f th e o ffic e o f t h e N D P P a r e d e a l t w i t h . I t g o e s o n t o
s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 2 4 t h a t, t h e m a n n e r in w h ic h y o u r o ff ic e w a s v a c a t e d
M r N x a s a n a w a s n o t C o n s t i tu t io n a l ly c o m p li a n t a n d y o u r e c o r d e d i n t h e
ju d g m e n t a s h a v i n g a c c e p t e d t h a t , i s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t ’s i s c o r r e c t j a .

A n d th e n p a r a g r a p h 2 5 c e r ta i n

s a l i e n t c o m m e n ts a r e m a d e c o n c e r n i n g th e c o n d u c t l e a d i n g u p to y o u r
v a c a ti o n o f o ffi c e a n d p a r a g r a p h 2 5 r e a d s , t h a t is o n p a g e 1 0 0 o f th e
ju d g m e n t ,
“ T h e f a c ts s e t o u t a b o v e p o in t to o n e th in g a n d o n e th in g o n ly,
f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a w a s b e n t o n g e t t i n g r i d o f Mr N x a s a n
b y w h a t e v e r m e a n s h e c o u l d m u s t e r, h is w a s a n a p p r o a c h t h a t
k e p t o n m u t a t i n g , it w a s fi r s t a s t ic k t h e n a c a r r o t a s t ic k o n c e
m o r e a n d e v e n t u a l ly a c a r r o t.

Th e r e w a s fir s t ly n o ti f ic a ti o n

t h a t M r N x a s a n a w o u l d b e s u b je c te d t o a n i n q u ir y w i th a v i e w
20

t o e s t a b li s h i n g w h e t h e r h e w a s s ti ll a f it a n d p r o p e r p e r s o n to
h o l d o ff ic e .

C o n c o m i t a n t ly t h e r e w a s a t h r e a t o f s u s p e n s i o n

p e n d i n g fi n a l is a ti o n o f t h e in q u ir y a l b e i t w it h f u l l p a y.

Th is

w a s f o l lo w e d b y f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s p r o p o s a l t h a t th e r e
b e m e d i a ti o n . W h e n t h e r e w a s n o p r o g r e s s o n t h is t h e in q u ir y
w a s i n s t i tu t e d , w h ils t t h e i n q u ir y w a s i n it s p r e li m i n a r y s t a g e s

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t p u r s u e d a p a r a l le l p r o c e s s in w h ic h M r
N x a s a n a w a s f ir s t o ff e r e d in a d r a f t s e t tl e m e n t a g r e e m e n t te n
m il li o n r a n d . A s i n d ic a te d e a r li e r h e d id n o t a c c e p t i t .

What

p l a i n ly e v in c e s h o w d e s p e r a t e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t Z u m a w a s t o
g e t r i d o f M r N x a s a n a , is th a t t h is w a s f o l l o w e d b y a d r a f t
s e t tl e m e n t in w h ic h th e a m o u n t w a s l e f t b l a n k .

Mr Nxasana

w a s b e i n g t o l d to p i c k w h a te v e r fi g u r e , i n d e e d M r H a l i e s a i d
t h a t h e w o u l d “ a w a it t h e f i n a l a m o u n t fr o m M r N x a s a n a ” a n d
t h e n t h e q u e s t io n is a s k e d i n p a r a g r a p h 2 7 , i n s t e a d o f s e t t li n g
10

f o r s o h u g e a n a m o u n t, w h y d i d t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t n o t
s i m p l y p u r s u e t h e i n q u ir y, d id h e n o t b e li e v e t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e
t h a t h a d m o ti v a t e d h i m t o c o m e u p w i t h t h e id e a o f a n in q u ir y
w a s s u ff ic i e n tly c o g e n t , i f s o w h y d i d h e n o t j u s t a b a n d o n t h e
in q u ir y a n d le a v e Mr N x a s a n a in o ffi c e , a f te r a l l h e w a s
e x e r c is i n g h is p o w e r s a s P r e s i d e n t a n d n o t i n v o lv e d in a
p e r s o n a l d is p u t e w h ic h h e c o u l d s e tt l e a s h e p l e a s e d .

I t is

d i ff ic u l t t o c o m p r e h e n d w h y h e w o u ld h a v e s e t t le d o n s o h u g e
a n a m o u n t fr o m p u b li c c o ff e r s t o b o o t . ”
I t c o n t i n u e s i n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 , th e in f e r e n c e i s i n e s c a p a b le t h a t h e w a s
20

e ffe c tiv e l y b u y in g M r N x a s a n a o u t o f o ffi c e , in m y b o o k c o n d u c t o f t h a t
n a t u r e c o m p r o m is e s t h e i n d e p e n d e n c e o f t h e o ff ic e o f N D P P, i t
c o n d u c e s t o t h e r e m o v a l o f t r o u b l e s o m e o r o th e r w i s e u n w a n t e d N D P P ’s
t h r o u g h b u y in g th e m o u t o f o ff ic e b y

o ff e r in g

them

o b s c e n e ly

huge

a m o u n ts o f m o n e y ” .
T h e n in a d d i ti o n t o th o s e c o m m e n t s , c e r t a i n c o m m e n ts a r e

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
m a d e i n r e g a r d t o y o u r o w n c o n d u c t i n a c c e p ti n g t h e a m o u n t o f th e
s e t tl e m e n t a n d I ’l l c o m e t o t h a t i n a m o m e n t Mr N x a s a n a b u t a s f a r a s
y o u k n o w, is th a t a f a i r s u m m a r y o f t h e f a c ts th a t w e r e a t le a s t p la c e d
b e f o r e – a n d I’ m e x c l u d i n g a n y o p i n io n n o w th a t m a y h a v e e m e r g e d
fr o m t h e ju d g m e n t , I’ m j u s t r e l a ti n g t h e f a c ts .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s , i t ’s a f a ir r e m a r k t h a t

is c o n t a i n e d h e r e .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

I k n o w th a t y o u a r e m o r e

e m p a t h ic w i t h t h e m i n o r i t y j u d g m e n t .
10

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s .

W h i c h w e w il l c o m e t o i n a

m o m e n t a n d e x p l a in t h e d i ff e r e n c e s , b u t y o u r e v i d e n c e t h e n n o t o n ly
d e a ls w i th th e t e r m i n a ti o n o f y o u r o ff ic e a s N D P P b u t th e r e a l r e a s o n s
t h a t y o u a ll e g e e x is te d w h ic h c a u s e d y o u r o ffic e t o b e e n d e d .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
And that evidence would

i m p l ic a t e c e r t a i n i n d iv i d u a l s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

C e r t a i n i n d i v i d u a ls y e s .

A n d i t is t o t h o s e i n d iv id u a ls

t h a t n o tic e w i ll b e g i v e n a n d i n r e l a ti o n t o w h o m y o u w i ll g iv e e v i d e n c e
in d u e c o u r s e .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Th a t i s s o C h a ir.
But as I understand that

e v i d e n c e i t is s u c h th a t th e r e is a n e x p la n a t io n fo r t h e c o n d u c t w h i c h
le d to y o u r, t h e t e r m i n a t i o n o f y o u r s e r v i c e s ?

Page 128 of 136

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
I must put before you the

c o m m e n t s o f J u s t ic e M a d l a n g a i n p a r a g r a p h 8 5 o f t h e j u d g m e n t , th o s e
a r e c le a r o n p a g e 1 2 3 o f th e b u n d l e C h a ir.

I n t h e l a tt e r p a r t o f

p a r a g r a p h 8 5 J u s tic e M a d l a n g a s a y s t h e f o ll o w i n g :
“ E ff e c t iv e l y a l t h o u g h M r N x a s a n a s tr o n g ly p r o t e s t e d h is f i tn e s s
f o r o ff ic e h e w a s s a y i n g h e w a s w i ll in g t o b e b o u g h t o u t o f
o ffic e s i f t h e p r ic e w a s r i g h t .

A s m u c h a s I s y m p a th is e w i t h

h i m I d o n o t th i n k t h a t is th e r e a c t io n e x p e c t e d o f t h e h o l d e r o f
s o h i g h a n d i m p o r ta n t a n o ffic e . A n o ff ic e th e h o l d e r o f w h ic h

10

if h e o r s h e is tr u ly i n d e p e n d e n t i s r e q u ir e d to d is p la y u t m o s t
f o r ti t u d e a n d r e s i li e n c e .

E v e n a l lo w i n g f o r h u m a n f r a il ti e s ,

b e c a u s e Mr N x a s a n a is h u m a n a f te r a l l, I d o n o t t h i n k t h e
h o l d e r o f t h e o ff ic e o f N D P P c o u l d n o t r e a s o n a b l y h a v e b e e n
e x p e c te d t o d o b e t te r. H i s c o n d u c t l e a d s m e to th e c o n c l u s io n
t h a t a j u s t a n d e q u it a b l e r e m e d y i s n o t to a l lo w h i m t o r e t u r n t o
o ffic e . ”
H a v i n g d e c i d e d a s th e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t d id t h a t th e t e r m i n a t i o n o f
y o u r s e r v ic e s w a s u n l a w fu l t h e f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n a r o s e i n r e l a t i o n t o
20

w h ic h th e m a jo r i ty a n d th e m i n o r i ty d is a g r e e d .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Ye s .
And that was whether you

s h o u l d b e a ll o w e d to r e t u r n t o o ffi c e . I n fa ir n e s s y o u s h o u l d b e e n t it l e d
t o c o m m e n t n o w t h a t t h a t e v i d e n c e is o n r e c o r d , o r t h a t j u d g m e n t i s o n
record.

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Ye s C h a ir. Ar e y o u a s k i n g

me to comment?
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s , i f y o u w is h t o .

MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :

Ye s , t h a n k s .

I t ’s a n a d v e r s e c o m m e n t a n d

t h e r e f o r e i n f a i r n e s s y o u s h o u l d b e a ll o w e d t o p u t y o u r o w n o p i n i o n
b e f o r e th e c o u r t , b e f o r e th e j u d g e , b e f o r e t h e C h a ir.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASAN A:

F ir s t ly C h a ir a s t h i n g s

w e r e g o i n g o n a n d t h a t h a v e b e e n g o i n g o n a f t e r I l e f t o ffi c e I fe l t t h a t
10

h a d t h i s m a t t e r c o m e b e f o r e t h e C o n s t it u ti o n a l C o u r t a ft e r t h is
C o m m i s s i o n w a s c o n s t i tu t e d a n d a ft e r t h e o t h e r C o m m i s s i o n o f In q u ir y
h a d b e e n c o n s t i tu t e d I s tr o n g ly b e li e v e t h a t t h e m a j o r i t y in t h e
C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t w o u l d h a v e c o m e t o a d i ffe r e n t c o n c lu s i o n . T h a t is
m y v i e w.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is in r e la t io n t o w h e th e r y o u s h o u l d b e

r e i n s t a te d o r n o t ?
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
20

P e r h a p s . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t i n r e g a r d t o t h e m a i n is s u e i n r e g a r d t o r e m e d y,
in o th e r w o r d s .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

To r e m e d y, C h a i r I fe l t

t h a t th e . . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, I’ m s o r r y, I m a y b e c o n f u s i n g y o u .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Page 130 of 136

Ye s .

12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e th a t I u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e y o u
lo c a t e y o u r c o m m e n ts , y o u h a v e j u s t s a id t h a t y o u f e l t o r f e e l th a t h a d
t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t c o n s i d e r e d t h a t m a t t e r a ft e r th is C o m m i s s i o n
a n d a f t e r t h e M o k g o r o In q u ir y . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

Mokgoro Commission,

in q u ir y y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y m a y h a v e c o m e t o a d i ffe r e n t c o n c l u s io n .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

T h a t ’s m y v ie w.

C H A I R P E R S O N : I ’ m j u s t a s k in g w h e th e r t h e c o n c lu s i o n y o u a r e ta lk in g
10

a b o u t is w i th r e g a r d t o w h e t h e r y o u s h o u l d b e r e in s t a t e d o r n o t o r a r e
y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e m a i n c o n c l u s i o n o n t h e m a t t e r.
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:

I b e li e v e t h a t t h e

c o n c l u s i o n w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e s a m e a s t h e c o n c lu s i o n r e a c h e d b y th e
m i n o r i ty j u d g m e n t t h a t I s h o u ld b e r e in s ta t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I f w e h a v e ti m e w e w i ll g e t

t h e r e i n a m o m e n t . J u s t t o p l a c e th e j u d g m e n t o f t h e m a j o r it y i n p r o p e r
c o n te x t i ts r e a s o n in g a t l e a s t i n p a r t is i n p a r a g r a p h 8 7 w h ic h a p p e a r s
on page 124, bundle EE, EXHIBIT EE, it reads:
20

“ T h e n a r r a t iv e a t t h e b e g in n i n g o f t h i s j u d g m e n t s h o w s t h a t f o r
a f e w y e a r s t h e r e h a s b e e n i n s t a b il it y in t h e o ff ic e o f N D P P,
a n d t h e r e f o r e i n t h e l e a d e r s h ip o f th e N PA .

With the Court

c h a l le n g e t o M r N x a s a n a ’s v a c a ti o n o f o ffi c e a n d to t h e
a p p o i n t m e n t o f A d v o c a t e A b r a h a ms t h a t in s t a b i li ty p e r s is t t o
t h is d a y. ”

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
T h e s e c o n d ju d g m e n t , t h a t ’s th e m in o r i ty j u d g m e n t , a c c e p ts c o r r e c t ly
t h a t i t w o u ld b e o p e n to t h e P r e s i d e n t t o in i ti a te a n i n q u i r y in t o t h e
m a n n e r i n w h i c h M r N x a s a n a v a c a t e d o ffi c e r e n d e r s h i m u n f it t o h o ld
o ffic e . T h e o r d e r p r o p o s e d b y th e s e c o n d j u d g m e n t t h u s h a s th e e ffe c t
o f p r o lo n g i n g t h e i n s ta b il it y.

T h e s e c o n d ju d g m e n t p r o p o s e d t h a t y o u

s h o u l d b e a ll o w e d t o r e t u r n o r a s a m a t t e r o f la w th a t y o u r c o n tr a c t
s h o u l d c o n ti n u e , in f a c t th a t is e ff e c t o f t h e j u d g m e n t .
MR MXOLISI SANDILE OLIVER NXASANA:
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E T O R I U S S C :
10

Ye s .

R e ly i n g o n t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t

o f th e L a b o u r C o u r t r e a s o n in g t h a t w h e r e a d is m i s s a l is i n v a l id a n d
u n l a w f u l n o t h i n g n e e d s t o b e d o n e , t h e e m p l o y m e n t c o n tr a c t ju s t
c o n ti n u e s , Z o n d o , J A , I th in k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( l a u g h in g ) W e ll th e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n a Z o n d o , J A .
Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

P r e s id e n t o f th e L a b o u r C o u r t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Zo n d o , J P.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

JP yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay yes.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :
20

The order proposed by the

s e c o n d j u d g m e n t t h a t h a s t h e e ff e c t o f p r o l o n g in g t h e i n s t a b il i ty, s o i t
s e e m s t h a t p a r t o f th e r e a s o n in g o f t h e m a j o r it y w a s t h a t th e i n s t a b i li ty
b y a ll o w i n g y o u t o r e t u r n a n d t h e m a j o r it y f e l t i t h a d a d i s c r e ti o n i n t h a t
r e g a r d , w h i c h s h o u l d b e e x e r c is e d in fa v o u r o f t h e c o n c lu s i o n t h a t y o u
s h o u l d n o t b e a l l o w e d to r e t u r n , t h e c o n c e r n w a s o n e o f s ta b i li ty a t t h e
N PA .

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
A n d t h e n o n e o f th e fu r t h e r r e s u l ts o f t h e ju d g m e n t o f th e
C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t is t h a t t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f A d v o c a t e A b r a h a m s w a s
declared

i n v a l id

and

the

Pr e s id e n t

was

d ir e c t e d

to

appoint

a

r e p l a c e m e n t f o r A d v o c a te S e a n A b r a h a ms .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : Ye s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

I f I m a y t h e n j u s t b r i e fly g o to

t h e o r d e r, y o u w e r e o r d e r e d t h e n t o r e p a y t h e a m o u n t r e c e iv e d b y
y o u r s e l f le s s ta x , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

A n d t h e n in t h e m i n o r i ty

ju d g m e n t a f te r a lo n g d e b a t e o v e r th e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f a d e c l a r a ti o n o f
in v a li d i ty i n r e g a r d t o t e r m i n a ti o n o f a n e m p l o y m e n t c o n tr a c t t h e
c o n c l u s i o n is r e a c h e d a t p a r a g r a p h 11 2 b y th e m i n o r i ty, w h ic h is a t
p a g e 1 3 4 o f t h e b u n d l e C h a ir, w h e r e J u s t ic e J a f t h a s ta t e d :
“In

the

present

m a t te r

th e r e

is

n o th in g

e x c e p ti o n a l

or

e x tr a o r d in a r y th a t w a r r a n ts t h e e x e r c i s e o f r e m e d i a l p o w e r t o
p r e v e n t M r N x a s a n a f r o m r e t u r n i n g t o o ff ic e .

H is r e t u r n w i ll

c e r t a i n l y n o t c a u s e a c o n s ti t u t i o n a l c r is e s o r a n a ti o n a l c r is e s .
O n t h e c o n tr a r y h i s r e t u r n w o u l d e n a b l e t h e P r e s id e n t t o f o l l o w
20

t h e l a w i f h e w is h e s to r e m o v e h i m f r o m o ffi c e a n d P a r li a m e n t
w o u ld p la y a v it a l p a r t i n th a t p r o c e s s , a n d m o r e i m p o r t a n t ly
p r e v e n t in g

Mr

Nxasana

fr o m

returning

to

o ffi c e

w i th o u t

p r o n o u n c i n g o n t h e v a li d it y o f h is e m p l o y m e n t c o n t r a c t w o u l d
n o t o n ly b e u n f a ir t o h i m , b u t w o u l d a ls o c r e a te c o n s i d e r a b l e
u n c e r t a in ty o n t h e p a r t i e s r i g h t s a n d in t e r e s ts . Th is w o u l d b e

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
a n t i th e ti c a l t o th e R u l e o f L a w w h ic h p r o m o te s c e r t a in ty. ”
A n d in r e l a ti o n to a j u s t a n d e q u it a b l e o r d e r th e C o u r t f o u n d a t
p a r a g r a p h 1 2 8 , i n th e m i n o r i ty p a g e 1 4 0 :
“ A s m e n t i o n e d a ll o w i n g M r N x a s a n a t o g o b a c k to h i s j o b w o u l d
a ls o m e e t t h e o b j e c ti v e s o f t h e C o n s t i t u t io n a n d t h e R u l e o f
t h e L a w i f h e h is i n v o lv e m e n t i n t h e i m p u g n e d s e t tl e m e n t
a g r e e m e n t b r o u g h t h i s f it n e s s t o h o l d o ff ic e i n t o q u e s ti o n h e
m a y b e r e m o v e d in S e c t i o n 1 2 o f th e N PA A c t. ”
F o r a ll t h e s e r e a s o n s s a y s t h e m i n o r i ty :
10

“ I d o n o t s u p p o r t th e c o n c l u s i o n t h a t M r N x a s a n a o u g h t n o t to
r e s u m e o ff ic e f o ll o w i n g t h e s e t ti n g a s id e o f t h e in v a li d a n d u n
la w fu l te r m i n a ti o n o f h is a p p o i n t m e n t. ”
T h a t i s in s u m m a r y w h a t t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t f o u n d a f t e r a ll th e
e v i d e n c e h a d b e e n p l a c e d b e fo r e i t , h a d b e e n c o n s i d e r e d b y t h e l o w e r
c o u r ts a n d w a s f in a lly c o n s id e r e d b y i t a n d w e a l l k n o w th e r e s u l t .
W h a t r e m a i n s is f o r y o u r e v i d e n c e t o c la r i fy t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s
w h ic h l e d t o s te p s b e i n g ta k e n t o r e m o v e y o u f r o m o ff ic e , a n d t h o s e w il l
b e t h e s u b je c t o f t h e f u r t h e r e v i d e n c e o f M r N x a s a n a .
Is t h is a c o n v e n ie n t t i m e C h a ir ?

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s it is , s u b j e c t t o j u s t m e n ti o n i n g t h a t th e l a s t p a r t
t h a t y o u t a l k e d a b o u t in r e g a r d t o th e j u d g m e n t c o m e s fr o m t h e m i n o r i ty
ju d g m e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t y o u s a i d a t t h e e n d m i g h t b e m is u n d e r s t o o d
a s if y o u a r e s a y in g t h a t ’s w h a t t h e C o u r t s a i d b u t w h a t y o u i n t e n d e d i s

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
t o s a y s o m e o f t h e t h i n g s y o u h a v e s a i d c o m e fr o m t h e m a jo r i ty
ju d g m e n t a n d t h e la s t b i t c o m e s f r o m m i n o r it y j u d g m e n t .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : Ye s t h e la s t q u o te s w e r e a l l fr o m
t h e m i n o r i ty ju d g m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

O k a y y e s w e c a n a d j o u r n n o w, s o Mr

N x a s a n a w e w il l a d j o u r n , a n d i t ’s o n t h e b a s i s th a t y o u w o u l d b e a s k e d
t o c o m e b a c k a n d t h e le g a l te a m a n d y o u r s e l f li a i s e w i t h t h e m w it h
r e g a r d w h a t w i t n e s s f e e s o r w h a t f e e s is m a y b e p a y a b l e w h e n a w i t n e s s
h a s c o m e t o th e C o m m i s s io n a n d b e c a u s e o f t h a t h e is n o t a b le t o w o r k
10

and earn income.

Fo r s o m e b o d y w h o is s e l f- e m p lo y e d it is q u i t e

i m p o r t a n t, I a m h o p e fu l t h a t t h e r e is a p r o v is i o n t h a t w o u l d – s h o u l d
t a k e c a r e o f t h a t, b u t – y o u w il l b e a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k .
M R M X O L I S I S A N D I L E O L I V E R N X A S A N A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir, I w i ll
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t o th e r th a n t h a t t h a n k y o u fo r a v a i li n g

y o u r s e l f a n d t h e n a r r a n g e m e n t s w i ll b e m a d e a s t o w h e n y o u w il l c o m e
b a c k a n d t h e le g a l t e a m o f t h e C o m m is s i o n w il l m a k e s u r e t h a t
i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n s a r e g iv e n R u l e 3 3 n o t ic e s .
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C :

Ye s , I m i g h t j u s t a d d C h a ir t h a t

t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s A c t u n d e r w h ic h w e o p e r a t e w a s p a s s e d a t th e t i m e
20

t h e c u r r e n c y w a s s t ill in p o u n d s , s o t h a t m a y fa v o u r t h e w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON:

( l a u g h in g ) .

Ja

so

he

might

prefer

that

the

r e m u n e r a t io n b e in t h e c u r r e n c y a s s ti p u l a te d i n th e C o m m i s s i o n s A c t
of 1947.
A D V PA U L J O S E P H P R E TO R I U S S C : I t h i n k t h e I n t e r p r e t a ti o n Ac t m a y
h a v e s o m e t h i n g to s a y a b o u t th a t , b u t w e d id e x a m in e i t .

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12 JUNE 2019 – DAY 111
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , n o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h o n c e a g a i n , y o u a r e
excused.
W e a d jo u r n , a n d t o m o r r o w w e w il l s ta r t a t – w h a t ti m e s h o u l d
we ...
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 3 M AY 2 0 1 9

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