C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

12 FEBRUARY 2020

D AY 2 1 2

20

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 12 FEBRUARY 2020
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s H o f m e y r, g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
M S M E M E L A : T h a n k s . Ar e y o u r e a d y ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s w e a r e in d e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e h a v e to m a k e p r o g r e s s t o d a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ju s t h a v e to m a k e p r o g r e s s t o d a y.

O k a y.

Ms

M e m e l a y o u a r e s til l u n d e r o a t h l e t u s g e t g o i n g .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M S M E M E L A : T h a n k s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a ir d u r i n g th e h e a r i n g y e s t e r d a y a f t e r n o o n

M s M b a n j w a i n t e r je c te d a t a p o i n t t o r a i s e a c o n c e r n th a t I h a d
d e li b e r a t e ly f a i le d t o r e a d o u t t o M s M e m e l a a n e x c u l p a to r y p a r t o f M s
M b e k i’s a ff id a v i t . A n d y o u w il l r e c a ll t h a t I r e s p o n d e d a t t h e ti m e t o s a y
t h a t th e tr a n s c r ip t w o u ld s h o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t c o n t r a r y t o M s M b a n jw a ’s a c c u s a t io n I h a d
in f a c t r e a d o u t t h e fi n a l s e n t e n c e o f t h a t p a r t o f M s M b e k i’s a ffi d a v i t .
20

C h a ir t h e a c c u s a ti o n is n o t o n ly o n e t h a t i m p u g n s m y in t e g r i ty a s a n
e v i d e n c e l e a d e r i n t h is c o m m is s i o n b u t i t a l s o c a s ts a s h a d o w o n t h e
p r o c e s s e s o f th e c o m m i s s i o n .

B e c a u s e t h e n u b o f th e a c c u s a ti o n i s

t h a t t h e r e a r e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s i n th is c o m m i s s io n w h o d e li b e r a t e l y fa il
t o p u t r e l e v a n t e x c u l p a to r y p a r ts o f t h e f a c ts a v a il a b l e t o i t t o a w i tn e s s
w h o i s b e i n g q u e s ti o n e d . A n d i t is fo r t h a t r e a s o n th a t I a d d r e s s i t t h i s

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
m o r n in g C h a ir.

C h a ir y o u h a v e s a i d m a n y ti m e s b e fo r e in t h e s e

p r o c e e d i n g s th a t th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r s o f t h is c o m m i s s io n a r e n o t h e r e
to prove a case.

T h a t i t i s o u r r o l e t o e n a b l e t h e c o m m is s i o n t o

c o n d u c t i ts f a c t fi n d i n g m is s io n . C h a ir t h e c o m m i s s i o n h a s m a n y t o o ls
a v a i la b le to i t to d o t h a t . I t h a s c o m p u l s i o n p o w e r s . I t c a n s u m m o n s
d o c u m e n ts a n d w i t n e s s e s a n d te s t i fy b e f o r e i t.

I t h a s a n e x te n s iv e

in v e s t i g a t iv e a r m t h a t ti r e le s s ly p u r s u e s li n e s o f in v e s ti g a t i o n a n d
a n a ly s is t e a m s . C h a ir e v id e n c e l e a d e r s in t h i s c o m m i s s i o n h a v e a
s in g le to o l w i t h w h i c h to d o th e ir w o r k a n d t h a t is i n t h e q u e s t io n s th a t
10

w e p u t t o w i t n e s s e s . C h a ir t h o s e q u e s t io n s I s u b m i t m u s t b e d e s ig n e d
t o u n c o v e r t h e tr u t h a n d a s a r e s u l t t h e q u e s ti o n i n g w i ll a t t i m e b e
r o b u s t . I t w il l i n v o lv e ta k i n g w i tn e s s e s t o d o c u m e n t s w h e n d o c u m e n ts
d o n o t b e a r o u t th e e v id e n c e th a t t h e y a r e g iv i n g .
p o i n t i n g o u t c o n tr a d ic ti o n s in a w i tn e s s ’ t e s ti m o n y.

I t w i ll i n v o lv e
A n d i t w il l a ls o

in v o lv e ta k i n g w i tn e s s e s to t h e v e r s i o n s o f o th e r p e r s o n s w h e r e t h o s e
versions

are

d is t in c t

or

c o n tr a d ic t

the

version

of

the

witness.

S o m e t i m e s t h o s e v e r s io n s w il l b e u n c o m f o r ta b le b u t th e y m u s t b e p u t
w h e n t h e y a r e d ir e c t ly a t o d d s w i t h w h a t t h e w i tn e s s is s a y i n g i n t h e
t e s ti m o n y.
20

B u t t h e o n e th i n g C h a ir t h a t a n e v i d e n c e le a d e r s h o u ld

n e v e r d o in t h e ir q u e s t i o n in g is d e li b e r a t e ly fa il t o p u t r e le v a n t
e x c u l p a to r y
q u e s t io n in g .
y e s t e r d a y.

i n f o r m a ti o n

evidence

to

a

w i tn e s s

that

they

are

It is – that was the charge that was made against me
I t w a s s e r i o u s a n d C h a ir i t w a s p a t e n tly f a ls e . A n d I s a y

t h a t b e c a u s e I a m g o i n g t o n o w h a n d u p t h e c o p i e s o f t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f
y e s t e r d a y.

I w il l m a k e a v a il a b l e c o p i e s t o my l e a r n e d f r i e n d s – I –

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C h a ir I a m n o t p a g i n a t in g th e m t h e y a r e t h e t r a n s c r i p ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o th a t is f in e . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d I w ill j u s t d ir e c t y o u t o t h e r e le v a n t p a r ts .
C h a ir t h e e x c e r p t fr o m t h e tr a n s c r i p t b e g i n s a t p a g e 1 6 1 o f 2 1 7 p a g e s .
Yo u c a n s e e t h a t i t w a s a l o n g d a y o n t h e b a s is o f t h e to t a l n u m b e r o f
pages.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t w h e r e w e p ic k i t u p i s a t li n e 1 0 b e c a u s e

t h a t is w h e r e I b e g i n t o q u o t e fr o m Ms M b e k i ’s a ff i d a v i t . A n d a t t h a t
10

p o i n t I w a s r e a d in g i n t o t h e r e c o r d a n d f o r M s M e m e l a ’s b e n e fi t w h a t
M s M b e k i h a d s a i d a t p a r a g r a p h 2 5 o f h e r a ffi d a v it .

Yo u w il l s e e t h e

tr a n s c r ip t i n c lu d e s th a t e n tir e p a r a g r a p h t h a t I r e a d in a n d t h e n i f y o u
g o o v e r th e p a g e t o p a g e 1 6 2 y o u w il l s e e a t li n e 9 a t p a g e 1 6 2 I r e a d
in t h e v e r y s e n t e n c e th a t I w a s a c c u s e d o f d e li b e r a t e ly h a v i n g f a il e d t o
read in.

T h a t s e n t e n c e w a s t h e s e n te n c e w h e r e M s M b e k i in h e r

a ffi d a v i t s a i d :
“ I a d m i t t e d t h a t I i n d e e d h a d b e e n a le r t e d b y t h e
t e a m t h a t a lo t o f t h e is s u e s t h a t I w a s r a is i n g w e r e
a lr e a d y r a is e d , d is c u s s e d a n d r e s o lv e d t h e p r e v io u s
20

d a y. ”
C h a ir I t a k e i t t h a t t h a t p u ts th e m a t t e r t o r e s t a n d w e c a n p r o c e e d w i t h
the questions.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . Ms M b a n j w a d i d y o u – d o y o u s e e t h a t ?
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I s e e i t C h a ir a n d I w i th d r a w. A n d I t h a n k
m y c o l le a g u e fo r p o i n ti n g i t o u t .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

A n d t h e r e a s o n w a s n o t b e c a u s e th e r e

w a s a n y m a lic e o n m y p a r t i t is b e c a u s e o f t h e q u e s ti o n s a n d c r o s s e x a m in a ti o n s th a t fo ll o w e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA :

W h ic h m a d e m e th e n a s s u m e th a t .

A l th o u g h t h e r e w a s a n e x c u lp a t o r y li n e t h a t is t h e b o t t o m li n e th e
c o n c e n tr a ti o n w a s o n t h e m id d l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : Fa ir e n o u g h I a p o l o g i s e t o Ms H o f m e y r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B u t t h e r e a s o n w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e l in e o f
q u e s t io n in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : A s i t p l e a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

W e ll I ju s t s a y th a t i t s h o u l d t a k e q u i t e

s o m e t h i n g b e f o r e o n e c o ll e a g u e a c c u s e s a n o t h e r o f d e l i b e r a t e l y d o in g
s o m e t h i n g w r o n g . S o m e ti m e s i t is o v e r s ig h t b u t o n e w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t
w h e n o n e s a y s d e l ib e r a te ly o n e h a s d o u b l e c h e c k e d . B u t th e i s s u e h a s
20

b e e n s o r te d o u t , y o u h a v e a p o lo g is e d , y o u h a v e w i t h d r a w n . T h a t is th e
e n d o f t h e m a t t e r.
ADV

LI N D E LWA

M B A N J WA :

Thank

you

C h a ir.

Once

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r p o in t a n d I .. [ n o t s p e a k i n g i n t o t h e m i c r o p h o n e ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s n o t h a t is fi n e . T h a n k y o u .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 5 of 105

more

I

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : M s M e m e l a w e c o n c l u d e d y e s t e r d a y ’s e v i d e n c e
w h e n w e w e r e l o o k i n g a t t h e c a s h p o s i t io n o f S A AT a t t h e ti m e t h a t t h e y
w e r e b e in g a s k e d to m a k e th is p a y m e n t o f t h e 4 . 1 m i lli o n U S D o ll a r s t o
A A R . A n d w e w e r e a t t h a t p o in t i n Ex h ib it D D 2 2 G . A n d t h e r e l e v a n t
p a g e is 3 1 8 8 .
MS M EM ELA: 31?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 1 8 8 .
M S M E M E L A : 8 8 . I a m h e r e C h a ir.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . S o ju s t b e f o r e w e g o t t o t h e c a s h
p o s i ti o n y e s t e r d a y w e h a d b e e n l o o k in g a t c e r t a i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e in
A p r il o f 2 0 1 7 j u s t to o r ie n t a t e y o u a n d th a t w a s w h e r e a f te r a fl o w o f
e m a i ls y o u w r o te b a c k to t h e S A AT t e a m t o i n d ic a te t o t h e m t h a t
a c c o r d i n g t o th e c o n t r a c t t h o s e w e r e t h e o p e n i n g w o r d s o f y o u r f ir s t
p a r a g r a p h o f y o u r e m a i l S A AT w a s r e q u i r e d t o p a y th is d e p o s i t a n d
t h e n y o u w e n t in t o e x p l a i n in g h o w t h e r e h a d b e e n n e g o t ia t io n s a r o u n d
s t a g g e r in g th a t p a y m e n t .
once.

I t d id n o t h a v e t o b e a l l th r e e m o n t h s a t

T h e r e w o u ld b e o n e m o n t h a n d th e n fo ll o w u p s .

But what the

e m a i ls in M a y in d i c a t e is th a t t h a t h a d s ti ll n o t b e e n a d e q u a te ly
20

a d d r e s s e d b y M a y. A n d s o t h e r e w e r e f o ll o w u p s – f o ll o w s u p fr o m A A R
a n d w h e r e I w o u l d l ik e t o p ic k i t u p i s a t p a g e 3 1 8 8 . T h e r e is a n e m a il
t h e r e s o r t o f t h i r d o f t h e w a y d o w n fr o m y o u r s e l f t o Ms M o s e s e , M r Er i a
a n d M r Vo s l o o . A n d y o u s a y t h e r e :
“ D e a r M a k g o ts o t h a n k s s o m u c h f o r t h e f e e d b a c k
h o p e fu ll y t h e p a y m e n t w a s m a d e y e s te r d a y a s y o u

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
in s t r u c t e d . ”
And then you say:
“ U n d e r s e c u r i ty d e p o s i t ? H o w f a r a r e w e w i t h t h a t? ”
MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i f y o u g o b a c k a p a g e . A c t u a l ly i t is
t w o b e c a u s e th is i s a s tr a n g e w a y in w h ic h t h e f lo w h a s b e e n p l a c e d in
t h e b u n d l e b u t t h e n e x t f o l l o w u p is a t 3 1 8 3 .
MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
10

I f y o u g o a ll th e w a y b a c k t o 3 1 8 3 .

T h e r e is

s o m e in t e r c h a n g e a r o u n d e m a i ls fr o m A A R t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e m – y e a r
e n d a n d th e n e e d f o r t h e m t o h a v e t h e p a y m e n t b e f o r e t h a t .
MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n a t th e t o p o f p a g e 3 1 8 3 y o u w il l s e e
M r Er ia w r it e s t o y o u .
M S M E M E L A : A r e w e – s o r r y C h a ir a r e w e i n 3 8 1 3 n o w ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 3 1 8 3
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS M EM ELA: 3183
CHAIRPERSON: Ja 3183 – 3183.

20

M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u w i ll s e e M r E r i a t h e r e a t t h e t o p o f t h e

p a g e o n th e 4 M a y 2 0 1 7 .
MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S a y s t h e f o l lo w in g t o y o u .
“ H i N o n ts a s a w e a r e c o m m i t t e d t o p a y th e 4 3 1 M a y

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
2 0 1 7 b o t h B P T H a n d t h e s e c o n d th ir d o f t h e d e p o s i t .
H o w e v e r I c a n n o t s a y h o w t h e g r o u p c a s h p o s i ti o n
w o u ld b e a t t h a t ti m e .

By end May 2017 we would

have paid”
I th in k h e i s w a n t i n g t o s a y :
“ W h a t w e w o u l d h a v e p a id w o u ld b e 6 7 % o f t h e
d e p o s it n o t 7 5 % a s r e q u e s t e d . C o n s i d e r i n g o u r c a s h
s i tu a ti o n th is is t h e b e s t w e c a n d o . I h o p e th e y w il l
understand.”
10

MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n th a t is t h e n f o l lo w e d u p a t 3 1 8 1 .
MS M EM ELA: 3182?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

3 1 8 2 y e s w o u l d y o u l ik e t o – o h y e s b e c a u s e

y o u th e n fo r w a r d i t t o Mr P r i c e a n d y o u – t h a t is a n A A R p e r s o n , i s th a t
r ig h t ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u s a y :
“ D e a r N i c k b e l o w is th e r e s p o n s e fr o m o u r C F O
p l e a s e c o n s i d e r. ”
20

M r P r i c e c o m e s b a c k a b o v e t h a t p a g e a g a i n s t il l o n th e 4 M a y a n d
t h a n k s y o u f o r c o o r d i n a t in g th is a n d t h e p a y m e n t u p to 6 7 % o f t h e
d e p o s it p l u s t h e P B H i n v o i c e is a g r e e d .
“ T h e o n ly f in a l a s k fr o m m e i s r e l a t i n g t o w h e n t h e
payment is made.

T h e e n d o f M a y is o u r f in a n c i a l

y e a r e n d it m u s t b e r e c e iv e d i n ti m e f o r t h a t . C o u l d

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
y o u a s k fo r t h e p a y m e n ts t o b e m a d e b y t h e 2 1 M a y
s o t h a t w e a r e a s s u r e d t h e fu n d s w il l b e r e c e i v e d
b e f o r e th e e n d o f t h e m o n t h ?

M a n y th a n k s f o r y o u r

c o n ti n u e d s u p p o r t a n d p r o g r e s s o f t h is i s s u e . ”
A n d th e n a t 3 1 8 1 a t t h e b o t t o m o f th a t p a g e M s M e m e l a y o u w r i t e to M r
Eria again.
“ H i D e v.

Th e ir la s t r e q u e s t t h e ir l a s t r e q u e s t i s t h e

d a t e o f p a y m e n t d o y o u t h i n k w e c a n a d h e r e t o th is
date?”
10

MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

And then Mr Eria responds on the 5 May to

yourself and says:
“Hi”
W e ll i t is to y o u r s e l f b u t a l s o t o Ms M o s e s e a n d h e s a y s :
“ H i M a k g o ts o p l e a s e o u t fr o m S A AT Tr e a s u r y h o w
m a n y d a y s i t t a k e s fo r t h e f u n d s t o r e a c h … ”
A p o l o g i e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I have lost you or you have lost me.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o i t i s b e c a u s e I a m g o i n g s o f a s t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e p r o b le m is t h a t w i t h th e s e e m a i ls s o m e ti m e s y o u
have got to go
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B a c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r w a r d
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e ti m e s y o u h a v e t o g o b a c k .

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A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C h a i r a n d y o u k n o w a s I w a s d o i n g it I w a s

r e a l is i n g i t w a s t o o f a s t b u t i t is m y e ff o r t t o m o v e s w i f tl y t o d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C h a ir w e a r e n o w a t 3 1 8 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t i s w h e r e I m i g h t h a v e l o s t y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I w a s s t ill a t 3 1 8 2 .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s in d e e d . S o l e t u s j u s t r e c a p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : B e c a u s e I w a s g o i n g t o o f a s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

At 3182 Ms Memela has forwarded the

r e s p o n s e fr o m M r Er ia t o t h e A A R r e p r e s e n t a ti v e b e c a u s e n o w t h e
is s u e is w h e n a r e th e y g o i n g t o b e a b l e t o g e t t h e p a y m e n t t h r o u g h .
A n d t h e A A R r e p r e s e n ta t iv e t h a n k s M s M e m e l a f o r fo r w a r d i n g i t a n d
t h e y e x p l a i n w h y t h e y n e e d t h e p a y m e n t e a r l y b e c a u s e o f t h e ir f in a n c ia l
year end.
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
20

And then at page 3181 Ms Memela sends an

e m a i l to M r Er ia , M s M o s e s e a n d Ms M t h e m b o a n d s a y s :
“ H i D e v th e ir l a s t r e q u e s t …
T h i s is a t t h e b o tt o m o f th e p a g e C h a ir.
“ T h e ir la s t r e q u e s t is th e d a t e o f p a y m e n t .

Do you

t h i n k w e c a n a d h e r e t o t h is d a t e ? ”
A n d a b o v e t h a t is M r E r i a ’s r e s p o n s e o n t h e 5 M a y 2 0 1 7 t o M s M e m e la

Page 10 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
and Ms Mosese. He says:
“ H i M a k g o ts o p l e a s e fi n d o u t fr o m S A A Tr e a s u r y h o w
m a n y d a y s i t t a k e s f o r fu n d s t o r e a c h A A R ’s b a n k
a c c o u n t a ft e r w e a ff e c t t h e E F T. C o n s i d e r i n g o u r
c a s h p o s i t io n I w o u l d l ik e to p a y a s l a t e a s p o s s ib l e
s o th a t th e y c a n g e t th e m o n e y b y t h e 3 0 t h . ”
Ms

Memela

do

you

r e c a ll

being

i n v o lv e d

in

th a t

c h a in

of

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e a t th e ti m e ?
MS M EM ELA: I recall.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t a t t h e ti m e t h a t S A AT
w a s r e q u i r e d to m a k e t h i s p a y m e n t i t h a d a n i m p a c t o n th e c a s h
p o s i ti o n o f S A AT ?
M S M E M E L A : D o I u n d e r s t a n d i t?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: That it had an impact?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u a c c e p t th a t i t d i d ?
M S M E M E L A : C h a ir I p r o m is e d y e s t e r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e k e e p t o y o u r p r o m is e .
MS MEMELA: Ja.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u s a y y e s I a c c e p t o r n o I d o n o t a c c e p t a n d
[i n d is t in c t] .
MS M EM ELA: No I do not accept and – yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d w h y is t h a t ?
MS MEMELA:

R e m e m b e r th e q u e s t io n y e s t e r d a y w a s a b o u t t h e

Page 11 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
g u a r a n te e r i g h t th a t w h a t w a s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g i f lik e w e w e r e t o g i v e
t h e g u a r a n t e e v e r s u s th e c a s h r ig h t . A n d I s a id b e c a u s e I d o n o t h a v e
a f i n a n c ia l b a c k g r o u n d b u t t h e u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f a g u a r a n te e i s t h a t
e v e n i f S A AT w e r e to g i v e a g u a r a n te e t h a t i s my u n d e r s ta n d i n g n o w i s
t h a t t h e r e s h o u ld b e m o n e y t h a t is p u t t h e r e b y S A AT r e g a r d le s s . S o
t h e r e is n o d i ff e r e n c e a n y w a y. I n t e r m s o f li k e t h e c a s h – c a s h – g i v e n
c a s h t o A A R a n d t h e n S A AT h a v i n g c a s h a t t h e b a n k a n d s e n d i n g t h e
g u a r a n te e .

T h a t c a s h s t il l b e l o n g s t o S A AT.

So that is my

u n d e r s t a n d in g r e g a r d l e s s o f t h e fa c t th a t I d i d s a y th a t I d o n o t h a v e
10

t h e f in a n c ia l b a c k g r o u n d .

T h i s i s s o m e th in g t h a t s h o u l d b e a n s w e r e d

b y a f in a n c e p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t s h e ju s t w a n t e d y o u r o w n .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Understanding.
M S M E M E L A : F o r m e i t d o e s n o t m a k e a n y d i ff e r e n c e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D o y o u u n d e r s ta n d h o w th e d r a w d o w n w a s

g o i n g t o w o r k i f a ll th a t h a d b e e n p r o v id e d w a s a g u a r a n te e ?
MS M EM ELA: Do I understand if the – what the draw…
20

CHAIRPERSON: The draw down.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H o w t h e d r a w d o w n w o u l d h a v e w o r k e d ?
MS M EM ELA: I do not.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : L e t m e e x p l a i n i t f r o m t h e p r o v is i o n s o f C l a u s e
4 .2 6 o f th e c o n tr a c t . Yo u w i ll r e c a ll t h a t w h e n w e l o o k e d a t i t y e s te r d a y
C l a u s e – I u n d e r s t a n d w e n e e d to g o t o C l a u s e 4 .2 6 .

Page 12 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Is i t t h e s a m e f il e ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : N o . I t i s i n D D 2 2 F.
CHAIRPERSON: I do not propose to go there.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s m e t o o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w h e n y o u r e a d i t I w i ll – ja .
MS M EM ELA: Ja. I am fine.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u a r e h a p p y o h g o o d .
10

M S M E M E L A : I t i s j u s t li k e I m e a n t h e c l a u s e s a y s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : B u t i f s h e – s h e w a n ts to g o t h e r e s h e c a n . I a m o k a y
with that.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

C e r ta in ly.

S o a l l I a m g o i n g to d o is

p a r a p h r a s e t h e c l a u s e b u t in a n y o n e w a n ts to b e lo o k i n g a t i t a t th e
s a m e t i m e i t is in D D 2 2 F a t p a g e 2 3 2 5 . S o w h a t th e c l a u s e p r o v i d e d
20

f o r w a s p a y m e n t o f th e d e p o s it b y w a y o f a n ir r e v o c a b l e s t a n d b y le t t e r
o f c r e d i t fr o m t h e b a n k . A n d w h a t t h e c l a u s e w e n t o n t o s a y w a s t h a t
m u s t b e g iv e n to J M a n d A A R a n d a s a n d w h e n t h e r e a r e a n y l a te
p a y m e n t s b y S A AT u n d e r t h e a g r e e m e n t . T h e n w h a t A A R is e n t i tl e d t o
d o i s d r a w d o w n o ff t h e s tr e n g t h o f t h e l e t t e r o f s t a n d b y c r e d i t fr o m th e
b a n k t h a t a m o u n t t o m a k e u p t h e la t e p a y m e n t . A n d i t i s f o l lo w e d u p

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
b e c a u s e t h e r e is a n o b l ig a t io n o n t h e p a r t o f S A AT t o m a k e g o o d a n y
d r a w d o w n w h ic h is t h e n ta k e n fr o m t h e b a s is o f t h e s t a n d b y le t t e r o f
c r e d i t fr o m th e b a n k .

A n d t h a t i s t h e r e a s o n w h y I s a y t h e r e is a

c o m p le t e l y d i ff e r e n t s i tu a ti o n fr o m a c a s h fl o w p e r s p e c ti v e fo r S A AT
w h e n i t h a s t o p a y o v e r – o v e r t h r e e m o n th s in 2 0 1 7 4 . 1 m i lli o n U S
D o ll a r s w h i c h w e w e r e to ld a t t h e ti m e b y M r H u m a n w a s a r o u n d R 6 0
m il li o n a s c o m p a r e d w i t h a l e tt e r o f c r e d i t s i t ti n g o n ly a b le t o b e
a c c e s s e d b y J M a n d A A R i n t h e e v e n t o f la t e p a y m e n t .
MS MEMELA:
10

S o C h a ir I d o n o t k n o w if I u n d e r s t a n d Ms H o f m e y r

p r o p e r ly. I t h i n k s h e w a s e x p la in i n g t o m e s o t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d . T h e
le t t e r o f c r e d i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : W il l j u s t s it t h e r e w i t h n o m o n e y – s it t in g a t t h e b a n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o s h e is n o t s a y i n g t h a t .
M S M E M E L A : O h o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e is s a y s – s h e s a y s i f th e r e i s a l e t t e r o f c r e d i t .
M S M E M E L A : H m . I t g iv e s a s s u r a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja but she says the way it is going to work is that

A A R w il l n o t h a v e a c c e s s t o t h a t .
20

MS MEMELA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n le s s th e r e is a l a t e p a y m e n t .
M S M E M E L A : T h e r e is – j a . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If t h e r e is n o l a t e p a y m e n t.
M S M E M E L A : I t w il l s it t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS MEMELA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a s i f y o u g iv e t h e m c a s h y o u h a v e g i v e n t h e m
c a s h b e f o r e t h e r e is a n y n e e d .
M S M E M E L A : B e f o r e t h e r e is a n y. ..
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y I g e t i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d C h a i r I a m in d e b t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
M S M E M E L A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I t i s c l e a r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : G iv e n t h a t c o n tr a s t d o y o u a c c e p t t h e n t h a t i t i s
m o r e o n e r o u s o n S A AT t o h a v e t o p a y o v e r i n t h r e e tr a n c h e s i n 2 0 1 7
R 6 0 m ill i o n th a n a s i t u a t io n i n w h ic h A A R o n l y h a s a c c e s s t o t h a t
m o n e y i n th e e v e n t o f la t e p a y m e n t b y S A AT o f i n v o ic e s .
M S M E M E L A : C h a ir I w il l p u t i t th is w a y.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : I t w a s n o t o n e r o u s t o S A AT.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : To p a y t h a t a m o u n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ys.
MS MEMELA:

Because remember failure to pay that amount would

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
b e a r c o n s e q u e n c e s to S A AT.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : S A AT t h e i r f u n c ti o n is t o s e r v ic e a ir c r a f ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

A n d s e r v ic i n g a ir c r a f t lik e y o u u s e t h e s p a r e s th a t is

s u p p o s e d to b e p r o v i d e d b y A A R .

A n d l ik e S A AT n o t p a y in g t h a t

a m o u n t o f m o n e y A A R l ik e h a d t h a t – w h a t y o u c a l l – e n ti t le m e n t t o
k e e p o r n o t g iv e u s t h e li k e t h e c o m p o n e n t s o t h a t w e c a n w o r k o n t h e
a ir c r a f t .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MEMELA:

A n d t h a t c a u s e s a n a i r c r a f t o n t h e g r o u n d w h ic h

d e p a r t m e n t t h a t g e ts b l a m e d if t h e a i r c r a f t is o n t h e g r o u n d is
procurement.
t e c h n ic ia n s h e

T h e y w i ll a l w a y s s a y N o n ts a s a b e c a u s e s h e is n o t a
does not understand these

things.

u n d e r s t a n d w h y s h e is s i t ti n g a t p r o c u r e m e n t a n y w a y.

We

do not

And it would

s t a r t t h e r e fr o m t h e fa il u r e t o p a y. S o t h a t i s w h y y o u s e e w h e n s h e is
r e a d in g a l l t h e s e e m a ils I u n d e r s ta n d t h e – lik e s h e is tr y in g t o m a k e
e v e r y b o d y u n d e r s t a n d b u t l ik e I m e a n a n o t h e r p e r s o n w o u l d i n t e r p r e t i t
a s N o n ts a s a a s p u s h in g s o h a r d f o r A A R t o p a y o n l y t o f in d o u t t h a t I
20

w a s p u s h i n g fo r t h e ir c o m p a n y s o t h a t t h e y g e t t h e c o m p o n e n t.
B e c a u s e A A R m a d e i t v e r y c l e a r fr o m d a y 1 th a t i t is th e ir p o lic y a s w e ll
t o g e t t h e d e p o s i t.

S o w e – w e [ i n d is ti n c t ] a n d s h o w t h a t l ik e w e g e t

t h e c o m p o n e n t o n t i m e b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h is w a s a b i g c o n tr a c t. O n e
s u p p li e r, i n t e r n a t io n a l s u p p l ie r c o m e s i n th e o t h e r o n e is g o i n g o u t . B e
it [ in d i s ti n c t ] s o b e c a u s e li k e I m e a n t h e y h a v e a ls o l o s t th e c a s e i n

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
c o u r t . A n d t h e r e w il l b e l o ts o f s a b o t a g e t h e r e a n d t h e n t h e a ir c r a f t w i ll
b e o n t h e g r o u n d b u t lik e n o b o d y is g o in g to c h e c k i f li k e I m e a n
fi n a n c e h a s p a i d – n o t p a id e v e r y b o d y is g o i n g t o l o o k a t p r o c u r e m e n t
b e c a u s e p r o c u r e m e n t is t h e o n e t h a t p u r c h a s e s a ll t h e s e c o m p o n e n t s .
Ye s s o I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h o s e k i n d s o f – I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t M s
H o f m e y r i s tr y in g t o u n d e r s ta n d b u t it t e r m s fr o m t h e f in a n c e p o in t o f
v ie w b u t lik e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s th a t th e c o m p a n y w o u l d f a c e a r e
m a tc h e d .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y.

Ms Mbanjwa you have your hand up.

I ju s t

w a n t t o s a y th a t to d a y y o u w i ll h a v e t o h a v e v e r y g o o d r e a s o n s f o r
o b j e c ti o n s . I w a n t u s to g e t g o i n g .
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir I w i ll n o t b e l o n g .
I h a d a lr e a d y e x p la i n e d my o b j e c ti o n s y e s t e r d a y b u t I r e p e a t t h is
q u e s t io n is u n f a i r t o b e p u t to th is w i t n e s s . A n d s e c o n d ly M s H o f m e y r
d o e s n o t h a v e t h e k n o w l e d g e t o p h r a s e t h is q u e s t io n a n d I w i ll e x p l a in
ju s t n o w w h y. S h e s a y s , d o y o u u n d e r s t a n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

No how do you know what Ms Hofmeyr – what

k n o w l e d g e Ms H o f m e y r h a s a n d w h a t. . .
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : K n o w le d g e s h e d o e s n o t h a v e .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : Ye s C h a ir. I ju s t w a n t t o e x p la i n m y s e l f .
I f I h a v e u s e d a w r o n g la n g u a g e l e t m e s a y s h e is n o t in a p o s i ti o n t o
k n o w h o w t h e d r a w d o w n w o r k s . T h is i s a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w d o y o u k n o w th a t M s M b a n j w a ?
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : I w a n t t o g i v e C h a ir i f C h a ir c a n j u s t g i v e

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
m e ti m e . T h is is a fi n a n c i a l a r r a n g e m e n t.
MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA :

I t is c o m m o n c a u s e i n th is h e a r i n g th a t

M s M e m e l a i s s u p p l y c h a in .

T h e r e is a p e r s o n a t S A AT w h o is t h e

C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r o r w h o is a t f in a n c e . Th e n i t is t h a t p e r s o n w h o
c a n c o m e i f i t i s n e c e s s a r y f o r t h e c o m m i s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o M s M b a n jw a n o .
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : To e x p l a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . Ms H o f m e y r is a s k in g M s M e m e la to g iv e
10

h e r o w n u n d e r s t a n d in g . S h e d o e s n o t h a v e to b e a n e x p e r t . S h e d o e s
n o t n e e d t o b e a f in a n c i a l p e r s o n t o g iv e h e r o w n u n d e r s t a n d i n g . S h e
is n o t b e in g a s k e d t o g iv e e x p e r t e v id e n c e .
k n o w t h is i s w h a t h a p p e n s .

S h e c a n s a y a s fa r a s I

O r m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is t h e f o l l o w i n g .

It

m i g h t b e c o r r e c t, it m i g h t n o t b e c o r r e c t b u t i t i s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g .
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : T h e d a n g e r – t h e d a n g e r C h a ir o f p u t t in g
a t e c h n i c a l q u e s ti o n to a p e r s o n w h o d o e s n o t h a v e e x p e r t k n o w l e d g e
o f t h a t t e c h n ic a l { s p e a k in g o v e r o n e a n o th e r ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e w ill s a y I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : B u t s h e h a s b e e n s a y i n g th is .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w e w i ll m o v e o n .
A D V LI N D E LWA M B A N J WA : B u t C h a ir p e r s o n s h e h a s b e e n s a y i n g I d o
n o t h a v e t h e f in a n c ia l a n d i f i t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e h a s b e e n g iv i n g h e r u n d e r s t a n d in g .
A D V L I N D E LWA M B A N J WA : A n d m y o t h e r c o n c e r n C h a i r p e r s o n w h i c h
I have.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : I d o n o t w a n t to s t r e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : I h a v e r a is e d m y c o n c e r n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : W h y I th i n k M s H o f m e y r is n o t th e p e r s o n
t o a s k t h is q u e s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA :
10

Th e o t h e r s e c o n d th i n g is i f a p e r s o n is

a s k e d a q u e s t io n a p e r s o n s h o u ld b e a s k e d a q u e s ti o n w h ic h is w i t h i n
h e r k n o w l e d g e . T h is q u e s ti o n is n o t i n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i f i t is n o t s h e w il l s a y, I d o n o t k n o w a n d t h a t is
a c c e p ta b l e .
A D V L IN D E LWA M B A N J WA : A s i t p l e a s e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s g e t g o in g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M s M e m e la y o u h a v e g i v e n
y o u r e v i d e n c e a lr e a d y o n w h e th e r y o u r e g a r d t h e p a y m e n t o f t h e R 6 0
m il li o n a s h a v i n g a n e g a t iv e i m p a c t o n th e c a s h p o s i t io n o f S A AT. W h a t
I w o u l d l ik e t o n o w m o v e to is w h o s t o o d t o b e n e f it fr o m t h e p a y m e n t o f

20

t h e R 6 0 m il li o n i n c a s h ?

B e c a u s e w h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o p u t to y o u f o r

y o u r c o m m e n t is th e f o ll o w i n g . Yo u s e e i f S A AT p a y s R 6 0 m il li o n i n th e
m i d d l e o f 2 0 1 7 to A A R y o u w il l r e c a ll th a t t h e a r r a n g e m e n t b e tw e e n
A A R a n d J M Av i a ti o n is th a t J M Av i a ti o n is e n ti t le d t o 5 % o f a l l r e v e n u e
d e r iv e d u n d e r t h e c o n tr a c t . D o y o u r e c a ll t h a t ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s b u t t h a t i s – I m e a n I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d h o w …

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s h o u l d – y e s s h o u l d b e e n o u g h .
M S M E M E L A : I r e m e m b e r th a t C h a i r b u t j a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b u t w a it f o r th e n e x t q u e s ti o n .
M S M E M E L A : A lr ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s i s a g o o d e n o u g h a n s w e r
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h a t m e a n s – th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t m e a n s t h a t w h e n S A AT p a i d o v e r th e t o t a l
o f R 6 0 m i ll io n .
10

M S M E M E L A : F o r t h e d e p o s it .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e d e p o s i t .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I n d e e d . I t w a s r e v e n u e g e n e r a t e d p u r s u a n t to
t h e c o n tr a c t f o r A A R a n d i n te r ms o f t h e J V a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n A A R
a n d J M Av i a t i o n , J M Av i a t i o n h a s a n e n ti t l e m e n t to 5 % o f t h a t p a y m e n t .
T h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f w h ic h w a s t h a t i t w a s e n ti t le d to r e c e iv e d R 3
m il li o n .

T h a t s i tu a ti o n d o e s n o t a r i s e i f t h e r e is a s t a n d b y l e t te r o f

c r e d i t fr o m t h e b a n k t h a t c a n o n l y b e d r a w n d o w n i n th e e v e n t o f n o n p a y m e n t . D o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t o n th a t ?
20

M S M E M E L A : I d o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

A n d I w il l n o t ta k e l o n g .

B u t m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e

d e p o s it – s e c u r i ty d e p o s i t is t h a t a s m u c h a s lik e I m e a n i t w o u ld h a v e
b e e n p a i d c a s h a n d s tu ff b u t it s t il l b e l o n g s t o S A AT r ig h t .

It is just

t h a t it is p a i d o v e r to g u a r d a g a i n s t a n y o t h e r m a y b e f a i l u r e t o d e li v e r

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
fr o m t h e S A AT s i d e . S o f o r m e t h a t c a n n o t b e d e f in e d a s a r e v e n u e . I
w i ll m a k e a n e x a m p le o f li k e t h e r e n t a l p r o c e s s w h e r e lik e I m e a n th e
t e n a n t p a y s t h e d e p o s i t a n d t h e n y o u h a v e to k e e p t h a t d e p o s i t i n th e –
w h a t in t e r e s t b e a r i n g a c c o u n t . S o t h a t li k e I m e a n i f t h e r e is n o t h i n g
t h a t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g t h is c o n tr a c t y o u a r e a b le t o p a y b a c k t h e
amount.

So I am – I do not see that as the revenue.

Th a t is m y

u n d e r s t a n d in g .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

D i d y o u m a k e e n q u ir ie s fr o m A A R t h a t t h a t is

h o w t h e y w e r e t r e a ti n g t h e 4 . 1 U S D o ll a r s – m ill i o n U S D o l la r s ?
10

M S M E M E L A : C h a ir w h y ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e a n s w e r w il l b e y e s I d i d o r n o I d id n o t .
M S M E M E L A : N o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : B e c a u s e I p r o m is e d th a t I w o u l d b e c r is p , n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M s M e m e la t h e n I w o u l d j u s t lik e t o
m o v e to y o u r p a r tic u la r r o l e i n t h i s c o n tr a c t a n d p r e c e d in g p r o c u r e m e n t
process

because

you

have

e m p h a s is e d

your

role

in

s u p p l ie r

development.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hang on a second.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms M e m e l a d o y o u n e e d s o m e – a f e w m i n u t e s ?
M S M E M E L A : N o , n o C h a ir I a m fi n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Are you okay?
MS MEMELA: Hm.

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CHAIRPERSON:

N o if y o u d o n e e d t i m e t o ta k e m e d ic a ti o n o r

a n y th in g .
M S M E M E L A : N o I a m o k a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t l e t m e k n o w.
M S M E M E L A : I a m o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
M S M E M E L A : I d i d n o t th in k y o u w o u ld n o ti c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d id n o t ic e . I a m w a t c h i n g .
M S M E M E L A : I a m s o r r y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I w a s m o v i n g M s M e m e l a t o y o u r p a r ti c u l a r

f o c u s o n s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

In r e la t io n t o t h is t e n d e r a n d y o u a c tu a lly

h i g h l ig h te d f o r u s t h e o th e r d a y th a t i t w a s a c r i ti c a l c r i t e r i a o f t h is b id
t h a t t h e b id d e r s c o m m i t t o s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t . D o y o u r e c a ll t a k i n g
u s to t h a t ?
M S M E M E L A : I t w a s o n e o f t h e e le m e n ts o f th e t e n d e r C h a ir. T h e r e is
a d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n th e c r i ti c a l c r i te r i a a n d I t o o k t h is c o m m i s s i o n
20

t h r o u g h th e e le m e n ts a n d I s a i d h e r e a r e t h e c r i ti c a l c r i t e r i a p h a s e 1 .
P h a s e 2 is B E E a n d p r i c e . P h a s e 3 is r e c ip r o c a l s u p p li e r d e v e lo p m e n t
a n d I d id e v e n e x p la i n t h a t o k a y a t v a l u e d 1 0 % e a c h , 1 0 % e a c h .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s s o s u p p l ie r d e v e l o p m e n t w a s a c r it ic a l

c r i t e r i a , c o r r e c t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : S h e j u s t w a n ts t o c o n f ir m t h a t y o u a g r e e t h a t y o u s a i d

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
t h a t i s a c r i ti c a l c r it e r i a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . O k a y C h a ir I h a v e j u s t e x p l a i n e d a g a in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I m u s t s a y t h a t a f t e r y o u e x p la in e d .
M S M E M E L A : L e t m e e x p la in .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a s n o t s u r e e i th e r.
M S M E M E L A : Yo u w e r e n o t c l e a r a s w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

Ja.

B u t if y o u s a y y e s i t w a s a c r i tic a l

r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t w i ll b e – i f it w a s o r n o i t w a s n o t .
M S M E M E L A : N o C h a ir. T h e r e w a s a c r i ti c a l c r i t e r i a .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS M EM ELA: It was under Phase 1. Right.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay what was under Phase 1?
M S M E M E L A : P h a s e 1 w il l b e th e c a p a b i li ty o f e a c h b id d e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA:

T h e y w il l b e a b le to p r o v i d e l ik e t h e ty p e o f p a r ts th a t

S A AT is l o o k in g fo r a n d a ll th e s e t e c h n ic a l th i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. H a n g o n .
MS M EM ELA: Like I mean…
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Hang on.

Just say – just say to Ms Hofmeyr yes it

w a s a c r i ti c a l r e q u i r e m e n t o r n o i t w a s n o t a c r it ic a l r e q u ir e m e n t ?
MS MEMELA:

O k a y it w a s n o t a c r i ti c a l c r i t e r ia i t w a s p a r t o f t h e

e l e m e n ts o f t h e t e n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

O k a y le t u s – I r e a lly d i d n o t a n t ic i p a te a

d e b a te o n t h i s b u t l e t u s g o t o t h e p a g e o f t h e c r i t ic a l c r i te r i a i n t h e

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
R F B . It is a t D D 2 2 .
MS MEMELA: DD22.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : E .
MS MEMELA: E?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s . A t p a g e 2 0 6 2 .
MS M EM ELA: Page sorry?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : 2 0 6 2 .
MS M EM ELA: 2062.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u s e e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h a t t h e r e is a b lo c k o n t h a t p a g e t h a t s a y s

P h a s e 1 C r it ic a l C r it e r i a ?
M S M E M E L A : O h . Ye s C h a ir.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Do

you

see

th a t

it

i n c lu d e s

Development?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . I - I s e e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o w a s y o u r a n s w e r j u s t n o w i n c o r r e c t ?
M S M E M E L A : J a . O k a y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u …
M S M E M E L A : I s e e a ls o t h e y p u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a c c e p t i t w a s ?
M S M E M E L A : J a . It w a s i n c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA: Ja.

Page 24 of 105

S u p p li e r

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

R i g h t . L e t u s l o o k a t w h a t th e c r i ti c a l c r i te r i a

s a i d a b o u t S u p p li e r D e v e lo p m e n t .

C h a ir, t h is is a b o u t th e fo u r t h li n e

fr o m t h e b o t t o m w i t h i n t h a t ta b le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u w il l s e e a li n e

th a t s a y s “ S u p p l i e r

Development” …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n th e r e is a n a s t e r is k …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i t s a y s :
“ I t m u s t e q u a l t o 1 0 p e r c e n t o f th e c o n tr a c t v a l u e . ”
M S M E M E L A : T h e c o n t r a c t v a lu e , j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n i n b r a c k e ts i s s a y s :
“( I n c lu d e p r o p o s a l) . ”
MS MEMELA: Ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u s e e th a t ?
M S M E M E L A : I s e e t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

I f y o u g o t h e n ju s t o v e r t w o p a g e s t o th e

d e f in i ti o n s , b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h e r e w a s a n a s t e r is k t h a t s a i d w e m u s t
lo o k a t t h e d e fi n i t io n s .
MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Yo u w il l fi n d t h e d e fi n i ti o n a t p a g e 2 - 0 - 6 - 4 .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : D o y o u s e e th a t ?
M S M E M E L A : I s e e t h a t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms M e m e l a ,

d e f in i ti o n o f S u p p li e r D e v e lo p m e n t .

just

before

we

lo o k

at

th e

Yo u h a v e e m p h a s i s e d th r o u g h o u t

y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t y o u h a d a p a r t ic u l a r f o c u s o n S u p p l ie r D e v e l o p m e n t
in t h is t e n d e r. W h a t I a m i n t e r e s te d in k n o w i n g i s w h e n y o u r e c e iv e t h e
C F S T r e c o m m e n d a ti o n - y o u i n d i c a t e in y o u r e v id e n c e y o u h a d
r e v ie w e d i t .
D i d y o u t a k e p a r tic u la r o r d i d y o u p a y p a r ti c u l a r a t t e n t io n to
10

t h e S u p p l ie r D e v e l o p m e n t a s p e c ts o f t h e b i d s w h e n y o u …
MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Si g n e d o ff?
MS MEMELA:

When

I

signed

o ff ?

C h a ir,

when

-

when

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o a s u b mi s s io n is - is d e liv e r e d t o m e f o r m e t o lo o k lo o k a t. A s I h a v e s a id …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m C F S T ?
M S M E M E L A : Fr o m t h e C F S T.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : I t - i t - w h a t - a b r i e f s u m m a r y o f w h a t t h e - th e p r o c e s s
20

t h a t th e y h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h e v a l u a ti n g a n d a d j u d i c a t in g a n d w h a te v e r.
I n th e a d j u d i c a t io n o r li k e C F S T Te a m t h e r e i s a S e n i o r M a n a g e r
S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t w h o is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r r u n n i n g t h a t p a r t in t h e r e
w h e n th e y a r e d o i n g t h e e v a l u a t io n a n d s t u ff .
A s I h a v e s a id th a t a ls o l ik e fr o m t h e l e g a l a n d c o n tr a c ts
m a n a g e m e n t p o in t o f v i e w t h e r e is a l s o M s M b e k i w h o is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
t h a t p a r t . S o o f c o u r s e lik e I m e a n w h e n t h e y v o t e d . T h e y a r e v o ti n g
n o w o v e r a l l s t o r y li k e o n - o n th e e l e m e n ts t h a t th e y h a v e r a t e d w h e n
t h e y w e r e v o t e - w h e n th e y w e r e v o t in g .
S o i t is n o t l ik e - I d o n o t r e m e m b e r th e s u b m is s io n , b u t li k e it i s n o t lik e th e y - th e y j u s t w r i t e a b o u t S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t o n i ts
o w n a n d th e n I h a v e t o l o o k a t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s y o u r a n s w e r th a t y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r y o u
p a i d p a r ti c u la r a t t e n t io n ?
MS MEMELA:
10

I d o n o t r e m e m b e r - I d o n o t r e m e m b e r, b u t lik e

r e m e m b e r C h a ir I - I h a d s a i d to y o u w h e n y o u a s k e d a b o u t t h e
s u b m is s io n .

I p a y a t te n ti o n to e v e r y th i n g to e n s u r e t h a t i t i s fl o w i n g

a n d e v e r y t h i n g t h a t n e e d s t o b e t h e r e b e f o r e i t g e ts t o t h e B o a r d is in
there.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o y o u d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r y o u p a i d

p a r t ic u l a r a tt e n ti o n t o - to i t?
M S M E M E L A : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r w h e th e r I p a i d p a r t ic u l a r a t t e n t i o n t o
it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s , b u t I - I r e m e m b e r t h a t t h e y h a d p u t t h a t o k a y t h e 20

t h e - w h a t d o y o u c a ll ? T h e - t h e J V P a r t n e r f o r A ir Fr a n c e w a s K w a n e
C a p it a l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M s H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d w e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t i t w a s a c r it ic a l

c r i t e r i a o f t h e b i ll - o f th e b i d . A p o l o g i e s . T h a t a p r o p o s a l o n S u p p li e r
D e v e l o p m e n t h a d to b e p r o v i d e d w i t h t h e b id .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d i f w e g o t h e n t o t h e d e f in i ti o n o f S u p p li e r
Development. I just want us to look at what it says that proposal ought
t o h a v e i n c lu d e d .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
bundle.

Yo u w i ll fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 2 - 0 - 6 - 4 i n t h e s a m e

Yo u w il l s e e a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h a t p a g e t h e r e is a b lo c k

headed:
“ S u p p l ie r D e v e l o p m e n t m u s t fo r m 1 0 p e r c e n t o f th e
10

C o n tr a c t Va l u e a n d i t m u s t e n t a i l th e fo ll o w i n g : ”
T h e r e is a n i n tr o d u c t i o n in t h a t p a r a g r a p h a b o u t …
MS M EM ELA: Can I read it?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n l y. W h y d o y o u n o t r e a d t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : C a n I r e a d i t C h a ir ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Fu ll p a r a g r a p h ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Read it.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
“ S A AT h a s e m b a r k e d o n a S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t

20

P r o g r a m w i th a lis t o f n o mi n a te d s u p p l i e r s b e i n g
approved

by

the

S A AT B o a r d

to

promote

th e

d e v e l o p m e n t o f o u r l o c a l e c o n o m y. S A AT c o n s i d e r s
any

mentorship

partnerships,

s k il ls

tr a n s fe r s ,

k n o w l e d g e t r a n s f e r s , a s s is t a n c e i n d e v e l o p i n g a
lo c a l c o m p a n y t o b e c o m e s u s t a i n a b l e i n a n a r e a

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
t h a t a lo c a l c o m p a n y c u r r e n t ly d o e s n o t h a v e
c a p a b il it y.

SMME

job

c r e a t io n ,

development

and/or

any

training

s u s t a i n a b le

and

e c o n o m ic

g r o w t h t h r o u g h r e v e n u e s a c c u m u la t e d o v e r t h e
f u l fi l m e n t p e r i o d t o b e p o s s i b l e i n i ti a ti v e t h a t a r e
considered

as

S u p p li e r

Development.

Other

in it i a t iv e s i n c l u d e r e s e a r c h a n d d e v e lo p m e n t a n d / o r
technology

tr a n s f e r.

As

a

r e s u lt

bidders

are

r e q u e s t e d t o s u p p ly a p r o p o s a l o n h o w a n d w h a t
they

10

would

impart

in

te r ms

o f s k i ll s

tr a i n i n g ,

t e c h n ic a l i n f o r m a ti o n e tc e te r a t o a l o c a l S o u t h
A fr ic a n v e n d o r. B i d d e r t o i n d ic a te w h a t v a l u e t h e y
w o u ld p l a c e o n e a c h a r e a o f d e v e l o p m e n t b a s e d o n
t h e a b o v e w h ic h t h e y w i ll b e i m p a r ti n g t o t h e l o c a l
v e n d o r. ”
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M s M e m e l a , d o y o u k n o w t h e n w h y
a ft e r A A R a n d J M Av i a ti o n w e r e a w a r d e d th e b i d .

Yo u w il l r e c a l l t h e

B o a r d m a d e t h e d e c is i o n o n 9 M a y a n d I t h i n k th e l e t te r c o m m u n ic a ti n g
t o t h e m th a t th e y w e r e s u c c e s s f u l w e n t o n a b o u t 1 3 M a y.
20

I th in k y o u

a u t h o r e d t h a t l e t t e r.
MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

W h y w a s A A R a n d J M Av i a ti o n a l l o w e d t o

submit

Development

their

S u p p li e r

proposal

after

that

date

on

1 J u ly 2 0 1 6 ?
MS MEMELA:

C h a ir - C h a ir, th e r e i s n o - f o r i n s ta n c e - ti m e fr a m e in

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
t e r m s o f s u b m i t ti n g t h e p r o p o s a l . A s l o n g a s i t i s g o i n g t o b e a d h e r e d
b y t h e - b o t h p a r t ie s w i t h i n th e t i m e fr a m e , b u t li k e l e t m e fir s t a d d r e s s
t h is . R e m e m b e r t h e C F S T i n i ti a l ly a w a r d e d Ai r Fr a n c e a n d e v e n o n A ir
- A ir Fr a n c e I d o n o t k n o w i f M s H o f m e y r w a s g o i n g t o a s k m e a b o u t A ir
Fr a n c e , b u t e v e n A ir Fr a n c e h a d n o t s u b m i t te d th a t p r o p o s a l .
S o l ik e t h e y w e r e a l s o g o in g t o b e g iv e n a c h a n c e t o s u b m i t
that proposal, because remember the proposal should be submitted
a ft e r b o t h p a r t i e s l ik e m a y b e v is i t e a c h o t h e r. G o a n d c h e c k w h a t is in
t h e r e , b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r th e y a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t s k il ls d e v e l o p m e n t ,
10

t e c h n o l o g y tr a n s fe r a n d n o h o w.
T h a t i s w h e n th e y w i ll fi n d o u t t h a t o k a y l i k e m a y b e t h i s lo c a l
c o m p a n y n e e d s tr a i n in g o n t h is a n d t h e y n e e d s u p p o r t fr o m u s fr o m t h is
s id e .

S o t h a t - t h a t is w h e n t h e y w il l b e a b l e t o p u t t o g e t h e r th a t

p r o p o s a l a n d th e n t h e y w i ll s ig n i t a n d s a y o k a y. T h i s is w h a t w e a r e
p u t t in g d o w n . T h a t li k e w e g o in g to b e d o i n g f o r th is l o c a l s u p p l i e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s a y th e r e - t h e r e is n o t i m e fr a m e s p e c if i e d

ti m e f r a m e w i t h i n w h ic h …
20

M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S u c h a p r o p o s a l w a s r e q u ir e d to b e s u b m i t t e d to b e

s u b m i tt e d ?
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir a s m u c h a s I d o n o t s i t

t h e r e . M s H o f m e y r r e a d h e r e s a y in g S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t m u s t e q u a l
t o 1 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e c o n tr a c t v a l u e a n d t h e n it s a y s in c l u d e a p r o p o s a l .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
Right.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:
s a y s o k a y.

S o l ik e t h e r e i s i n t h a t b r a c k e t - th e r e is n o t h i n g th a t

M a k e s u r e t h a t y o u in c l u d e a p r o p o s a l w i th in t h e - t h e

t e n d e r p e r io d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : A n d I c a n te ll y o u n o w s ir …
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.
10

M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, i f t h e y d o t h a t t h e n t h e y w il l b e …
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no, no.

I think - I think you have given the

a n s w e r.
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. T h a n k s .
CHAIRPERSON: Let us see what Ms Hofmeyr …
M S M E M E L A : A lr ig h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

H a s t o s a y.

Yo u s a id t h e r e i s n o t i m e fr a m e w i t h i n

w h ic h …
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. T h a n k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w e r e r e q u i r e d to d o s o . O k a y.
20

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela,

this

is

the

request

for

bid

d o c u m e n t . I s i t n o t th a t w e a r e l o o k i n g a t ?
M S M E M E L A : T h is i s t h e r e q u e s t fo r b i d d o c u m e n t th a t is u s e d b y t h e
C F S T. Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : Ye s a n d o n th is p a g e w e a r e b e in g t o l d - t h is is
2 - 0 - 6 - 2 - w h a t t h e e v a lu a ti o n c r i te r i a a r e o f th e b i d a n d u n d e r “ C r i t ic a l

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C r i t e r ia ” b id d e r s a r e t o l d - i f w e l o o k a t t h is b lo c k . Th a t s u p p ly - t h a t
t h e y h a v e a r e q u ir e m e n t f o r S u p p li e r D e v e lo p m e n t w h ic h m u s t e q u a l 1 0
p e r c e n t o f th e c o n t r a c t v a lu e a n d in c l u d e p r o p o s a l . H o w c o u ld th a t n o t
m e a n t h a t t h e y m u s t i n c l u d e th e ir p r o p o s a l w h e n t h e y b i d ?
M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, o k a y a g a i n I w i ll b e …
CHAIRPERSON: Well you see …
M S M E M E L A : J u s t p u t t in g m y o p in io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W h a t - w h a t s h e is - w h a t M s H o f m e y r is d o i n g is
q u e s t io n in g y o u r - y o u r a n s w e r. Yo u s a y t h e r e w a s n o t i m e fr a m e w i t h i n
w h ic h th e y w e r e r e q u ir e d t o p u t i n a p r o p o s a l .

S o s h e is s a y i n g , b u t

t h is w a s p a r t o f t h e r e q u e s t …
MS M EM ELA: Evaluation.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r b id s …
MS MEMELA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e r e f o r e i t - i t m u s t b e t h a t t h a t in f o r m a t io n i s
s u p p o s e d to b e t h e r e w h e n t h e b i d is p u t i n . T h a t - th a t i s w h a t s h e i s
s u g g e s t in g …
20

MS MEMELA: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON: And what is your answer to that?
MS MEMELA:

W h a t i s m y a n s w e r to t h a t ?

O k a y C h a ir.

u n d e r s t a n d in g a s m u c h a s th is i s t h e k n o w le d g e o f th e C F S T.

My
My

u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t li k e t h e b i d d e r s m a y b e th e y w e r e g i v e n a n
o p p o r t u n i ty t o g i v e c o m m i t m e n t .

I a m n o t s u r e i f t h e r e w a s th a t

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
c o m m i t m e n t fr o m A ir Fr a n c e , fr o m A A R . I k n o w - I - I d o k n o w t h a t t h e r e
w a s n o s u c h c o m m i t m e n t fr o m L u f t h a n s a , b u t l ik e i f t h e y g i v e
commitment.
A t l e a s t li k e I m e a n t h e p r o p o s a l w i ll b e w o r k e d o n b a s e d o n
t h e c o m m i t m e n t t h a t t h e y h a v e m a d e th a t w e c o m m i t t o th e S u p p li e r
D e v e l o p m e n t t h a t li k e t h i s i s w h a t w e a r e g o i n g t o w o r k o n . O n c e t h e y
u n d e r s t a n d , b e c a u s e C h a ir i t i s ju s t lik e I m e a n w e a r e r u n n i n g o u t o f
ti m e a n d y o u h a v e a s k e d m e t o g iv e c r is p - t h is is b r o a d e r t h a n h o w i t
lo o k s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : I w i ll g iv e y o u t h e - t h e e x a m p le .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MS MEMELA:

F o r i n s t a n c e l ik e t h a t w e o n c e a s k e d A ir Fr a n c e a n d

Is r a e l A e r o s p a c e to g iv e u s w h a t is i t t h a t t h e y c a n g i v e b a c k t o t h e
c o u n tr y a n d s t u ff a n d th e n t h e y ju s t g a v e u s t h r e e p a g e p r o m is in g t h is
a n d t h a t a n d th a t a n d w h e n y o u s i t b a c k a n d l o o k a t i t , b e c a u s e th e y d o
n o t k n o w. T h e y d o n o t h a v e a b a c k g r o u n d a b o u t S o u t h A f r ic a o r a n y o f
t h e s e lo c a l s u p p l i e r s . W h a t i s t h e ir n e e d a n d s t u ff ?
T h e y j u s t c a m e u p w i t h th a t fr o m t h e ir h e a d , b e c a u s e t h e y
20

h a v e n o t s a t d o w n . S o i t - i t is n o t a g o o d id e a t o d o t h e p r o p o s a l a t
t h a t s t a g e , b e c a u s e y o u h a v e n o t s a t w i t h t h e s e p e o p le n o w a f t e r t h e
a g r e e m e n t h a s b e e n d o n e . S o t h a t i s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

How do you choose between the bidders then

o n S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t i f t h e y d o n o t i n c l u d e i n t h e ir b id p r e c is e ly

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
w h a t t h e y a r e g o i n g to d o f o r S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t a n d w h a t v a l u e
t h e y a r e g o i n g t o e n s u r e g e ts tr a n s l a te d t o t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s o f th a t
development?
MS MEMELA:

B u t l ik e I m e a n t h e 1 0 p e r c e n t - i f t h e y s a y C h a ir th e y

a r e c o m m i t ti n g t o g iv e 1 0 p e r c e n t t o w a r d s S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t . T h e y
a r e g iv i n g 1 0 p e r c e n t t o w a r d s r e c i p r o c a l w o r k .

A lr e a d y t h e y h a v e

c o m m i t t e d . T h e y a r e a l l n o w a f te r t h a t li k e t o p u t o n t h e p r o p o s a l is to
ju s t l is t d o w n - b r e a k d o w n w h a t i s i t t h a t is g o in g t o b e d o n e
s p e c i f ic a l ly.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t a s s u m e a ll o f t h e b id d e r s s a i d y e s . I w il l

c o m m i t 1 0 p e r c e n t . H o w d o y o u c h o o s e b e tw e e n t h e m i f t h e y h a v e n o t
b e e n r e q u i r e d w i t h t h e ir b i d to s u b m i t t h e ir p r o p o s a l ?
MS MEMELA: Hm.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e a r i n g i n m in d t h o s e i m p o r ta n t e l e m e n ts th a t

y o u r e a d o u t . Yo u n e e d t o e x p l a i n …
MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh. No.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e n e fi t i s g o i n g to b e tr a n s la t e d a n d w h a t

v a l u e w il l b e r e c e i v e d .
M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, r e m e m b e r …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS M EM ELA: Remember …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
MS MEMELA:

T h e e v a lu a ti o n - m y u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e y a r e n o t

e v a l u a t i n g b a s e d o n t h e li s t o f w h a t t h e s u p p li e r s h a v e - h a v e p r o mi s e d
a n d lis t e d d o w n . T h a t o k a y I a m g o i n g t o b u il d s c h o o l in - i n t h a t r u r a l

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
area.

I a m g o i n g t o b u i l d t o i le t s a n d - a n d h o s p i ta ls .

I t is n o t a b o u t

t h a t . I t is a b o u t c o m m i t t i n g a n d t h e n l ik e o n c e w e k n o w e x a c tl y w h a t is
t h e n e e d o f t h e lo c a l s u p p l ie r s , b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r w e a r e m a n a g i n g
t h e s e s u p p li e r s .
W e w il l b e a b l e t o s a y o k a y. T h i s i s w h a t i s n e e d e d fr o m y o u .
Yo u u n d e r s ta n d . S o li k e I a m - i t - it w o r k s l ik e t h a t . S o i t is n o t l ik e I
m e a n w h e n M s K a t e s a y s - y o u c a n s e e e v e n t h e y c o m p l y. I t s a y s y e s
o r n o . R i g h t . D i d y o u s e e t h e - t h a t f o r m t h a t s h e t o o k u s to ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S M E M E L A : I t s a y s y e s o r n o . S o l ik e o n c e t h e y c o m m i t t o t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : I t is u p t o th e c o m p a n y n o w to s a y o k a y. T h is i s w h a t
you have committed on.

H e r e is t h e l o c a l s u p p li e r.

Let us - let us

d is c u s s a n d th e n l ik e t h e y p u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
MS M EM ELA: Down …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : T h e p r o p o s a l a n d lik e g o a l l o v e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W h a t - w h a t I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d a n d I s u s p e c t i t

m i g h t b e t h e s a m e e x p e c t a ti o n t h a t M s H o f m e y r w o u l d h a v e …
MS MEMELA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

I n t h e c o n te x t o f t e n d e r s .

Is that when the request

f o r b id s s a y s S u p p l ie r D e v e l o p m e n t is a c r i ti c a l r e q u i r e m e n t a n d s a y s
w h a t i s w r i t t e n h e r e s h o u l d b e 1 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t
and so on.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS MEMELA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d t h a t w h a t is b e i n g r e q u i r e d is
t h a t i f y o u w a n t t o b i d f o r t h is t e n d e r.
MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

O n e o f t h e th i n g s th a t m u s t b e d e a l t w it h i n y o u r

p r o p o s a l i s - i n y o u r b id i s - is th e S u p p l i e r D e v e l o p m e n t a n d t h a t o n e
o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t y o u w il l b e c o m p e t in g w i t h o t h e r b i d d e r s o n is h o w
g o o d is w h a t y o u a r e p u t ti n g o n th e t a b le in t e r m s o f S u p p li e r
D e v e l o p m e n t . S o i f y o u r - y o u r - i f w h a t y o u s a y o n s u p p l y - S u p p li e r
10

Development is vague and so on and some body else …
MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s g o t a v e r y c l e a r p i c t u r e o f w h a t th e y a r e g o i n g to
d o . Yo u s ta n d a b e t t e r c h a n c e o f - o f g e t ti n g m o r e - m o r e p o in ts t h a n
t h e o th e r o n e w h o h a s g o t j u s t v a g u e s t a t e m e n ts .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s t o h o w t h e y w il l c o n tr i b u t e .
M S M E M E L A : B u t C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t I w o u l d e x p e c t .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a ir.

20

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say?
M S M E M E L A : L e t u s s a y n o w s i t ti n g a r o u n d t h e ta b le t h e p e o p l e t h a t
a r e d o i n g th e - b u s y w i th t h e C F S T t h e e v a l u a t i o n - t h e a d j u d ic a ti o n .
T h e y a r e s i t ti n g th e r e . L e t u s s a y n o w it is p o s s i b l e w h a t - w h a t y o u
think might have happened.

L ik e - l ik e t h e y a r e h e r e - t h e p r o p o s a ls

m a d e b y t h e s e m u l ti n a ti o n a l c o m p a n ie s .

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T h a t o k a y w e a r e g o in g t o d o t h is f o r t h e s u p p li e r t h a t w e
h a v e c o m e w i t h a n d w e a r e g o i n g to d o t h a t a n d t h a t a n d th a t .

How

w i t h o u t th e l o c a l s u p p l ie r s i t ti n g i n t h a t t a b l e w il l t h o s e p e o p l e i n t e r n a l
a t S A AT k n o w t h a t i n d e e d w h a t i s w r it t e n th e r e i n t h a t p r o p o s a l i s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t is n e e d e d b y th e s u p p li e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s e e t h a t t h e b i d d e r n e e d s t o a d d r e s s e x a c tl y
t h a t . T h e - w e l l t h e b i d d e r n e e d s to s a y t h e p e o p l e w h o w ill a d j u d ic a te
t h is b id . W h a t w il l th e y b e n e e d i n g i n o r d e r f o r m e t o g iv e m e m a x i m u m
points?
10

T h e y w il l b e n e e d i n g t o k n o w w h e t h e r I a lr e a d y h a v e a lo c a l

s u p p li e r t h a t I w il l w o r k w i th .
MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

They

w i ll n e e d

to

know

whether

I have

had

d is c u s s io n s w i t h t h is l o c a l s u p p li e r a b o u t w h a t t h is l o c a l s u p p l i e r s
needs …
MS MEMELA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I h a v e e v a l u a t e d t h e ir s u g g e s ti o n s o f w h e r e I c a n
help …
MS MEMELA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I h a v e m a d e u p m y m i n d t h a t th is is w h e r e I w il l
20

help.

S o w h e n I p u t i n m y b id .

I am clear about that and I - if I - if

n e c e s s a r y I a t ta c h a le t t e r fr o m t h e l o c a l s u p p li e r t h a t s a y s i n d e e d
t h e s e a r e t h e t h in g s t h a t w e n e e d d e s p e r a t e ly.
M S M E M E L A : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u m a k e y o u r b i d a s a b id d e r …
MS MEMELA: Hm.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : Fu ll a n d c o m p le t e o n t h is i s s u e .
M S M E M E L A : C h a ir, i t i s a b o u t c o m m i t ti n g to t h e s u p p li e r. I - I c a n y o u s e e t h e - t h e e le m e n ts t h a t a r e li s t e d th e r e a s c r i ti c a l c r i te r i a .

I

w i ll j u s t m a k e a n e x a m p l e n o w o f o n e o f t h e m . B e i n g - i t s a y s :
“ T h e s u p p li e r m u s t b e a 2 4 h o u r /3 6 5 d a y s o f
s e r v ic e . ”
S o n o w w h a t is e x p e c t - e x p e c t e d th e r e b y M s H o f m e y r fr o m
t h e S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t . I m a g i n e i f y o u w e r e - s h e w a s t o a s k o k a y.
D i d y o u m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e s u p p li e r d e li v e r e d w it h in 2 4 h o u r s e x a c tly ?
10

I m e a n th a t is m a n a g e d b y a c e r t a i n p e r s o n t o e n s u r e t h a t l ik e I m e a n
d e li v e r y is o n t i m e . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d .
S o lik e I m e a n th e r e is s o m e b o d y w h o is r e s p o n s i b l e f o r
m a n a g in g th a t S u p p l i e r D e v e l o p m e n t t o p u s h a n d e n s u r e th a t t h i s t h e s e s u p p l ie r s a r e d o i n g e x a c tly w h a t li k e th e y - t h e y a r e s u p p o s e d t o
be doing …
CHAIRPERSON: But …
M S M E M E L A : C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M E M E L A : L e t m e g iv e a n e x a m p l e o f t h e N I P o b l ig a ti o n .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M E M E L A : B e f o r e t h e S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
MS MEMELA:
S A AT.

W h i c h is l ik e I m e a n n o w w i ll - w i ll b e c o n tr o ll e d b y

Th e N I P O b l i g a t io n - th e s e m u l ti n a ti o n a l c o m p a n i e s w e r e

e x p e c te d to p a y 3 0 p e r c e n t o f t h e v a l u e o f t h e c o n tr a c t . R i g h t . B a c k t o

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D T I a n d i f t h a t w a s t h e c a s e a ls o f o r S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t f o r N I P
O b l ig a t io n t h a t w a s d o n e a f te r w a r d s . O n c e th e m u l t in a ti o n a l c o m p a n y
wins.
T h e n w e w il l w r i te a le t t e r t o D T I a n d s a y o k a y. B r i d g e s t o n e ,
A ir Fr a n c e a n d w h o o r w h o e v e r h a v e - h a v e w o n t h is t e n d e r. Ta k e o v e r.
N o w w h a t t h e y d o . T h e f ir s t t h i n g t h a t t h e y d o t h e y - t h e y e n t e r i n to a a n M O U . T h a t d o e s n o t r e a ll y s ta t e w h a t th e 3 0 p e r c e n t w il l b e - w i ll
b e u s e d t o d o , b e c a u s e l ik e D T I t h r o u g h t h e s e m u l t in a ti o n a l c o m p a n ie s .
T h e y h a v e t o g o t h r o u g h r e s e a r c h a n d c h e c k w i th i n t h e
10

c o u n tr y th a t 3 0 p e r c e n t w h a t c a n i t b e u s e d t o - t o d e v e l o p m a y b e
c e r t a i n c o m m u n i t ie s a n d s tu ff .

S o l ik e t h e s e a r e th e t h in g s th a t a r e

d o n e a f t e r w a r d s . A f t e r t h e te n d e r h a s b e e n d o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s m y u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e is

t h e r e f o r e t o t h e e ff e c t th a t a t th e ti m e w h e n t h e p r o p o s a l is - t h e b i d i s
p u t in .
MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e r e i s n o t m u c h i n fo r ma t io n .

Yo u a s S A AT w e r e

e x p e c ti n g t h e b id d e r s to p u t i n …
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : U n d e r S u p p li e r D e v e lo p m e n t .
M S M E M E L A : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l y o u n e e d e d is a c o m m i t m e n t …
MS MEMELA: Commitment.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t t h e y w il l - w h a t w o u l d b e th e c o m m i t m e n t y o u jy o u w o u l d n e e d ? W h a t - w h a t w o u ld y o u s a y ?

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M S M E M E L A : F o r i n s t a n c e y o u s e e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w i ll b e a c o m m i t m e n t t h a t s a y s w h a t?
M S M E M E L A : Yo u s e e - y o u s e e C h a ir. T h e r e - t h e r e is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t a c o m m i t m e n t t o - t o p u t a s id e 1 0 p e r c e n t o f th e
v a l u e to s u p p ly - t o S u p p li e r D e v e lo p m e n t …
MS MEMELA: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : G e n e r a l ly o r is i t m u c h m o r e d e ta il e d t h a n t h a t ?
MS MEMELA:

I - I - s i n c e I a m s a y i n g I d o n o t s i t i n t h e C F S T.

m i g h t b e - m a y b e I d o n o t k n o w.
10

M a y b e t h e r e is a l e t te r.

It

Maybe

Ms Hofmeyr - Hofmeyr can share with us since she is asking more
a b o u t A A R t h a t e v e n t u a l ly w o n .

I f th e r e w a s a p r o p o s a l fr o m A ir

Fr a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s e e I w ill - I w ill l e t M s H o f m e y r c o n t in u e -

c o n ti n u e n o w. Yo u s e e m y - m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g …
M S M E M E L A : Ye s . J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld - w o u ld b e t h a t y o u n e e d to p u t i n y o u r b id h o w
good …
MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Yo u r p r o p o s a l is o n h o w y o u w il l c o n t r i b u t e t o

S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t . Yo u m i g h t s a y t o m e …
MS MEMELA: Hm.
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e t h a t i s h o w - t h a t is th e i m p r e s s i o n w h a t is

w r i t t e n h e r e g i v e s , b u t a t a p r a c t ic a l l e v e l w e a t S A AT a c c e p te d t h a t a c c e p te d p r o p o s a l s o r b id s t h a t d id n o t h a v e m u c h . A s l o n g a s i t w a s
c le a r t h a t th e c o m p a n y o r t h e b i d d e r w a s c o m m i t t in g t o c o n t r i b u t in g t h e

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10 percent …
MS MEMELA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e q u ir e d . T h a t - t h a t w o u l d b e e n o u g h a t t h e s t a g e
o f p u tt i n g in t h e b i d . T h e r e s t w o u ld b e d i s c u s s e d w h e n th e y h a v e w o n .
M S M E M E L A : W e ll C h a ir fo r - f o r m e fr o m w h e r e I a m s i t ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : T h e p e o p l e t h a t s i t a r o u n d t h a t t a b le …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . C F S T.
MS MEMELA: CFST Members.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : M o s t o f t h e m - a s y o u h a v e s e e n s o m e o f th e a ff id a v i ts
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : A r e t e c h n ic ia n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MEMELA:

T h a t h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g a t S A AT f o r o v e r 3 5 y e a r s

w i t h o u t e n s u r i n g o r m a y b e p u s h in g t h e s e m u l ti n a t io n a l s u p p li e r s t o g iv e
b a c k t o th is c o u n tr y.

S o y o u - y o u s e e t h a t - t h a t is w h e r e my - m y

u n c o m f o r t c o m e s fr o m .
20

T h a t l ik e I m e a n w e w o u l d e x p e c t th e C F S T

M e m b e r s t h a t h a v e b e e n s i t t in g a t S A AT f o r 3 5 y e a r s lik e w i th N I P
O b l ig a t io n s a p p lic a b l e a lr e a d y a t th a t ti m e .
N o t d o i n g a n y t h in g t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e a r e g iv in g
b a c k t o th e c o u n tr y. W e h a v e a - a c o u n tr y li k e C h in a t o b u y - t h o s e
p e o p l e d o n o t c o m p r o m is e w h e n th e y g i v e y o u a c o n tr a c t .
g iv e b a c k t o t h e ir c o u n tr y.

Yo u m u s t

S o l ik e t h e N I P O b li g a t i o n p e o p l e a n d

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S u p p li e r D e v e l o p m e n t is fo r t h a t .

S o l ik e n o w t h o s e p e o p l e t h a t a r e

s i tt i n g t h e r e th e y d i d n o t e v e n u n d e r s t a n d w h a t S u p p l ie r D e v e l o p m e n t
is a b o u t .
T h e y d id n o t e v e n u n d e r s t a n d w h a t N I P O b l ig a t io n - i n f a c t
t h e y w e r e a g a in s t it c o m p le t e l y.

S o f o r - f o r u s t o e x p e c t th e m t o b e

t h e o n e w h o d e c id e a n d e v a l u a t e i n d e t a i l w h a t is a p r o p o s a l .

Of

c o u r s e a n y m u l t in a ti o n a l s u p p li e r s , b e c a u s e th e y h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g
with them for long …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MS MEMELA:

A n d t h e y w i ll j u s t p u t w h a te v e r t h a t m a k e s e v e r y b o d y

happy …
CHAIRPERSON: So …
M S M E M E L A : A t t h a t - i n t h a t ta b le .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g c o r r e c t t h a t w h a t y o u a r e

s a y in g is t h a t t h e w a y t h a t S A AT a p p l ie d th is o r t h e C S …
M S M E M E L A : C F S T.
CHAIRPERSON:

C F S T a p p li e d t h is w a s t h a t t h e y w o u l d o n ly d is c u s s

w i t h t h e b i d d e r a ft e r t h e b i d d e r h a s w o n ?
M S M E M E L A : A f t e r t h e b i d - a f te r th e y h a v e c o m m i t t e d a n d t h e n li k e
20

t h e b i d d e r h a s w o n . T h e n l ik e …
CHAIRPERSON: Has won, yes.
M S M E M E L A : R e m e m b e r t h e n t h e r e w i ll b e a n in v o lv e m e n t o f th is lo c a l
s u p p li e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : A t l e a s t t h e y w i ll b e a b l e t o g iv e t h e m i n f o r m a ti o n . H e r e

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
is o u r n e e d . H e r e is t h e g a p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

T h e s e p e o p l e li k e th is 1 0 p e r c e n t t h e y c a n g iv e i t t o

tr a n s fe r o f s k il ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MEMELA:

W e n e e d th e c o m p u t e r s f o r u s t o b e a b l e t o h e l p t h e m

tr a n s fe r li k e s u p p ly p a r ts a n d s tu ff .
CHAIRPERSON:

W o u l d th a t b e d o n e b e fo r e t h e a c t u a l c o n t r a c t is

s ig n e d o r w o u ld i t b e d o n e a f te r t h e c o n tr a c t h a s b e e n s i g n e d ?
10

M S M E M E L A : I t w i ll b e d o n e a ft e r t h e c o n tr a c t i s d o n e . N o , n o . I t - i t
c o u l d b e d o n e b e f o r e t h e c o n tr a c t i s s i g n e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : B e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h e a w a r d f o r i n s t a n c e m a y b e i t w il l
b e m a d e - i t w il l b e s i g n e d M a y a n d th e n th e c o n tr a c t c o m m e n c e s i n
O c t o b e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS M EM ELA: So somehow if it happens.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MEMELA:

20

T h e c o n tr a c t li k e i t c o u l d b e d o n e w i th - b e f o r e th e

c o n tr a c t g e t s s i g n e d , b u t a t t h e e n d o f t h e d a y e v e n i f i t is n o t d o n e
there …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : L ik e t h e r e s h o u l d b e m a y b e v a l id r e a s o n s w h y i t w a s n o t
fi n a l is e d b y t h e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y. A lr ig h t .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS MEMELA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I - I c a n t e l l y o u , b u t w e w i ll - M s H o f m e y r m a y
h a v e q u e s ti o n s . I c a n te ll y o u i t s e e m s t o m e m u c h m o r e s e n s i b l e t o
say put your proposal …
M S M E M E L A : Yo h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d d e a l w i th S u p p l ie r D e v e l o p m e n t f u l ly …
M S M E M E L A : O k a y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: But I understand … (intervenes)
MS M EM ELA: Maybe then I - I am not …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Understand.
M S M E M E L A : I m a y - I m a y s o u n d lik e I a m - I a m d e f e n d i n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . Yo u - y o u …
M S M E M E L A : T h e C F S - C F S T, b u t I a m s a y i n g C h a i r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o , n o . N o . Yo u a r e s a y in g …
MS MEMELA: Oh.
CHAIRPERSON: What you understood to be happening and why it was
h a p p e n in g .
M S M E M E L A : O h . O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M S M E M E L A : N o , b u t I ju s t w a n t e d t o a d d th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : L ik e r e m e m b e r th a t - t h a t w a s - th is w a s a n e w p r o g r a m
a t S A AT.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MS MEMELA:

L i k e u n li k e t h e lik e s o f Tr a n s n e t , b e c a u s e w e a r e

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
f o ll o w i n g t h e i r le a d a ls o . U n l ik e t h e l ik e s o f E s k o m t h a t h a v e a l r e a d y
s t a r t e d d o i n g t h i s li k e a l r e a d y h a d c e r ta i n f r a m e w o r k s …
CHAIRPERSON: No. That is fine.
M S M E M E L A : I n p la c e a n d s t u ff .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
M S M E M E L A : S o f o r - fo r S A AT i t w a s a t e e t h i n g p h a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
MS MEMELA: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r.
10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

S o Ms M e m e l a , j u s t t o c l a r if y.

Is i t y o u r

e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e r e - t h e C F S T Te a m d i d n o t e v a lu a t e t h e d i ffe r e n t
proposals on Supplier Development that had been provided by the
bidders?
MS MEMELA:

No.

I d i d n o t s a y th a t .

I s a i d li k e I a m s u r e th e y

e v a l u a t e d th e i r c o m m i t m e n t a n d t h e f a c t th a t t h i s f o r m s a y s y e s o r n o .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : T h a t …
MS MEMELA:

If t h e y s a y - if - i f t h e y s a y y e s t h e n lik e t h e y w i ll

e v a l u a t e th a t b a s e d o n y e s .

L i k e a s y o u s e e t h a t a ls o o n t h e

o p e r a ti o n a l o r t e c h n ic a l o n e s w h e r e i t s a y s B R r a te 7 0 p e r c e n t . T h e y
20

w i ll s a y y e s .

R e m e m b e r a l s o t h e r e th e B R is s o m e th i n g th a t l ik e y o u

h a v e t o g o d o w n a n d g iv e i t a b r e a k d o w n f o r e v e r y b o d y t o u n d e r s t a n d ,
b u t a s l o n g a s t h e y s a y y e s . Yo u - y o u k e e p t h e m t o t h a t c o m m i t m e n t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : S o t h e is s u e i s w h e th e r t h e y h a v e s a i d y e s ?
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : A n d th e n th e p r o p o s a l …

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS M EM ELA: I am not sure - remember
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R : H a p p e n s a f t e r w a r d s ?
MS MEMELA:

Remember - remember Ms Hofmeyr I do not sit there.

S o l ik e I a m n o t s u r e m a y b e t h a t i s w h y I w a s s a y i n g m a y b e i n y o u r - i n
y o u r fi le s y o u m a y h a v e l ik e s o m e le t t e r s f o r A ir Fr a n c e o r fo r o t h e r
bidders.

L ik e s e e m s l ik e n o w y o u a r e a s k in g a b o u t A A R a n d J M , b u t

lik e I m e a n r e m e m b e r t h e in i ti a l b id d e r t h a t w a s a w a r d e d w a s b y t h e
C F S T a n d - a n d S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t w a s A ir Fr a n c e .
S o y o u s e e C h a ir l ik e I w il l u n d e r s ta n d i f th is q u e s t io n w a s
10

c o m i n g - o k a y. M s M e m e l a Ai r F r a n c e h a d p u t th is p r o p o s a l …
CHAIRPERSON: Well no, no.
M S M E M E L A : A n d s tu ff a n d t h e n l ik e n o w h e r e is A A R .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no. I am going to stop you Ms …
MS MEMELA: Ja. I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s M e m e l a , I a m g o in g t o s t o p y o u . Yo u s e e y o u m a y
n o t h a v e s a t in C F S T M e e ti n g s , b u t y o u w e r e t h e H e a d o f Pr o c u r e m e n t
a n d t h e r e f o r e o n e w o u l d e x p e c t th a t y o u w o u ld k n o w h o w p r o c u r e m e n t
p r o c e s s e s w e r e d e a l t w i th …
MS MEMELA: Ja.

20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d o n e w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t y o u w o u l d k n o w fo r

e x a m p l e w h a t t h is k i n d o f r e q u ir e m e n t - h o w i t w a s a p p li e d o r i t w a s
a d j u d ic a te d , b e c a u s e a s H e a d o f Pr o c u r e m e n t y o u w o u l d b e e x p e c t e d I - I w o u ld i m a g i n e - t o g u id e q u i t e a l o t o f p e o p l e w i th i n S A AT t o s a y
o n p r o c u r e m e n t is s u e s …
MS MEMELA: Hm.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
CHAIRPERSON:

T h i s i s w h a t - t h i s i s w h a t w e - w e r e q u ir e a s S A AT

a n d t h e s e a r e o u r p o lic i e s .

T h i s is l e g is la t io n .

I f th e r e i s th is

r e q u ir e m e n t w h ic h is s a i d t o b e c r it ic a l o n e w o u l d e x p e c t t h a t y o u
w o u ld k n o w h o w i t i s s u p p o s e d to d e a l w it h - t o b e d e a l t w i th . S o t h a t
if …
MS MEMELA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r e x a m p l e C S - C F S T d i d n o t d e a l w it h i t th e w a y i t
should be dealt with.
MS MEMELA: Hm.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t y o u w o u l d b e th e p e r s o n t o s a y

y o u p e o p l e a r e n o t a c t in g i n c o m p l i a n c e w i t h t h is r e q u ir e m e n t t h e w a y
y o u d e a l w i t h y o u r - w it h y o u r w o r k .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is my e x p e c t a t i o n .
M S M E M E L A : T h a t is y o u r … ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. C h a ir, I s e e M s H o f m e y r is f o c u s in g o n S u p p l ie r
D e v e l o p m e n t . N o , n o . I w a n t t o … ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. C o m m e n t o n w h a t I h a v e j u s t s a i d .
20

M S M E M E L A : Ye s . I a m g iv i n g a n e x a m p l e . J u s t b e a r w it h m e . T h e r e
is - t h e r e …
CHAIRPERSON: But remember …
M S M E M E L A : N o . I w a n t s o m e th i n g t h a t i s t h e s a m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e …
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I w a n t y o u t o f o c u s o n - o n c o m m e n ti n g w h e t h e r
m y e x p e c t a ti o n …
MS MEMELA: That one.
C H A I R P E R S O N : My e x p e c t a t i o n …
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Of what …
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Would be expected from you.
M S M E M E L A : Fr o m m e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : A s H O D o f Pr o c u r e m e n t w h e t h e r i t is c o r r e c t .
M S M E M E L A : Ye s C h a ir. I - I l ik e g iv in g e x a m p l e s . S o li k e t h e r e i s
r e c ip r o c a l w o r k . T h e r e a ls o i t h a s a b r a c k e t t h a t s a y s i n c lu d e p r o p o s a l .
CHAIRPERSON: No. Start by saying yes I agree …
MS MEMELA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u l d b e e x p e c te d fr o m m e a s H O D o r n o . I - I
d o n o t a g r e e . Th a t w o u l d n o t b e e x p e c t e d . Th e n if y o u n e e d t o g iv e a n
e x a m p l e th e n - th e n I c a n fo ll o w. L e t u s c l e a r t h a t p a r t f ir s t .
M S M E M E L A : O k a y. Yo u s a i d w h a t w o u l d b e e x p e c t e d f r o m m e a s a n
H O D is t o d o w h a t?

20

CHAIRPERSON:

Is - i s t o k n o w w h a t th e - t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts a r e f o r

p r o p e r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a t S A AT a n d i f th e r e i s a c r i ti c a l
r e q u ir e m e n t s u c h a s t h i s y o u w o u l d b e e x p e c te d t o k n o w w h a t i t is ,
n u m b e r o n e . Yo u w o u ld b e e x p e c t e d t o k n o w h o w i t is a d j u d ic a te d .
MS M EM ELA: Huh-uh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h a t i f C F S T f o r e x a m p l e d i d n o t a p p ly it t h e w a y i t

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
s h o u l d b e a p p l ie d . Yo u w o u ld b e a b l e t o s a y n o , n o , n o . C S - C F S T
y o u a r e n o t a p p ly in g t h is t h e w a y i t s h o u l d b e a p p li e d .

T h a t i s my

e x p e c ta t io n .
M S M E M E L A : Yo h .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t e x p e c ta t io n m a y b e w r o n g , b e c a u s e m a y b e t h a t

is n o t w h a t y o u r j o b d e s c r i p ti o n w a s , b u t t h a t w o u ld b e w h a t I w o u ld
e x p e c t fr o m H e a d o f Pr o c u r e m e n t . Is m y e x p e c t a t i o n c o r r e c t o r n o t ?
MS MEMELA:

Yo u r e x p e c t a ti o n - y o h .

M u s t I t e ll a J u d g e h e is

in c o r r e c t ? I d o n o t fe e l c o m f o r t a b l e s a y in g th a t .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n t e l l m e i t i s i n c o r r e c t .
MS M EM ELA: I - I do not …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n t e l l m e i t i s i n c o r r e c t …
M S M E M E L A : I d o n o t w a n t t o p u t i t th a t w a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e - b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w t h e p o l ic ie s . Ye s .
M S M E M E L A : I d o n o t w a n t t o p u t i t t h a t w a y. Yo u r - y o u r e x p e c t a ti o n
…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M E M E L A : Is r e a s o n a b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . O k a y.

20

M S M E M E L A : I th i n k I - I m i g h t b e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M E M E L A : I t i s r e a s o n a b le a n d j u s t i fi a b l e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS MEMELA: But …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : Yo u s a i d lik e I m e a n f r o m t h e H O D S C M is e x p e c t e d t o
k n o w t h e p r o c e s s e s o f p r o c u r e m e n t th a t h a v e to b e f o l l o w e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MEMELA: That …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : Is o n e t h i n g th a t lik e I a m n o t e v e n - li k e i t i s s o m e th i n g
t h a t l ik e I f o l l o w o r m a y b e
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : A d h e r e t o a ll t h e ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MEMELA:

R e m e m b e r li k e I m e a n th e p r o c e s s o f p r o c u r e m e n t a r e

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Hm.
M S M E M E L A : S t a t e d in t h e P P P FA .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MEMELA:

T h e C o n s t i tu t io n 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 7 , t h e P F M A a n d s t u ff l ik e

that.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MEMELA:

S o m e t h i n g d i ffe r e n t - d i ff e r e n t fr o m w h a t is e x p e c te d

fr o m t h e C F S T t h a t a r e d o in g th e e v a l u a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M E M E L A : R i g h t . S o y o u - y o u s e e i f I a c t u a lly h a d a c c e s s to g e t
in t h e r e …

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M E M E L A : I n t h e C F S T a n d s i t t h e r e a n d d e c i d e w i th t h e m …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MEMELA:

And evaluate with them.

T h e n I w o u ld s a y y o u r

e x p e c ta t io n o f m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS M EM ELA: Are correct …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : B u t l ik e I m e a n …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M E M E L A : A n d i f I w a s s i t ti n g h e r e t o d a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MEMELA:

O r m a y b e f o r t h e p a s t t h r e e d a y s - I a m - I a m b e in g

q u e s t io n e d a b o u t t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w a s n o t f o l lo w e d a n d t h e n li k e t h e r e
w a s a n A u d i to r G e n e r a l f i n d i n g . T h a t s a i d o k a y li k e i n t h is p r o c u r e m e n t
a t S A AT t h e s e w e r e n o t d o n e a c c o r d in g t o th e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s
in t h e P u b l ic S e c t o r. I a m n o t s i t ti n g - I a m n o t s i t ti n g h e r e fo r t h a t .
I a m s i t ti n g h e r e a n s w e r i n g q u e s t io n s th a t h a v e n o t h i n g t o d o
w i t h p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a t S A AT. Yo u u n d e r s t a n d , b u t lik e I m e a n
20

it is j u s t l ik e I m e a n t h e C F S T t h a t w e ll t h e y - t h e y a c c e p t t h e - t h e t h e w h a t ? T h e c o m m i t m e n t a s i t is o r d id t h e y j u s t s a y y e s o r n o a n d
lik e my - m y u n c o m f o r t a ls o C h a ir is t h e f a c t t h i s q u e s ti o n is a c tu a l ly
o n ly j u s t d i r e c t e d t o o n e s p e c i f ic b i d d e r. N o t a ll o f t h e m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s c o n t in u e .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Thank

you

C h a ir.

Page 51 of 105

Thank

you

C h a ir.

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
M s M e m e l a , t h e r e a s o n w h y I a m f o c u s i n g o n t h e a s p e c t o f S u p p li e r
Development is because it was one of two reasons why the Board
o v e r tu r n e d t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n fr o m t h e Ac t in g C E O t o a w a r d t h i s
t e n d e r to A ir Fr a n c e .
MS MEMELA:

C a n w e g o t o t h e B o a r d R e s o l u ti o n ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:

Thank you.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
MS MEMELA:
10

O f c o u r s e w e c a n , l e t ’s g o t h e r e .

D D 2 2 F, p a g e 2 3 0 5 .

D D 2 2 F.

CHAIRPERSON:

Pr o b a b l y I d o n ’ t n e e d t o g o t h e r e ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

P r o b a b ly n o t C h a ir, w e h a v e r e a d th is a

n u m b e r o f ti m e s , a n d w h e r e r e l e v a n t w e w i ll j u s t r e a d it in t o th e r e c o r d .
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

D D .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

Well read it, maybe once you have read it Ms

M e m e l a m ig h t n o t n e e d t o l o o k a t i t , b u t i f y o u n e e d to l o o k a t i t p l e a s e ,
is t h e fil e t h e r e t h a t h a s g o t i t ?
MS MEMELA:
20

O h I t h o u g h t y o u s a i d l ik e w e m u s t n o t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I w a s t a lk i n g fo r m y s e l f , b u t i f y o u d o n e e d t o

lo o k a t i t i t is f in e b u t s h e w il l r e a d i t .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

It is DD22F page 2305, oh I see Ms Mbanjwa

w a n ts t o s a y s o m e th i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:
A D V M B A N J WA :

Ms M b a n j w a ?
Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a i r I j u s t w a n t t o p o i n t o u t t h a t

Page 52 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
t h e w i t n e s s h a s s a i d t h is li n e o f q u e s ti o n in g i s u n f a ir t o h e r b e c a u s e
she doesn’t not sit on the CFST ...[INTERVENES]
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms M b a n j w a t h is l in e o f q u e s t io n in g is l e g i t i m a te ,

please sit down.
A D V M B A N J WA :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B e f o r e w e l o o k a t t h e r e s o l u ti o n M s M e m e l a I

u n d e r s t o o d y o u r e v i d e n c e e a r li e r t o b e w h a t w a s r e q u ir e d u n d e r t h a t
c r i ti c a l c r it e r ia w a s s i m p l y a n i n d i c a t io n y e s th e r e w o u l d b e t h e
c o m m i t m e n t r e q u ir e d o f v a l u e a n d s o t h e d e ta ils o f th e p r o p o s a l d i d n o t
10

n e e d t o b e p r o v id e d w i th t h e b i d , c o r r e c t ?
MS MEMELA:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Yo u s e e w h a t c o n c e r n s m e a b o u t t h a t is w h e n

t h e B o a r d m e t o n t h e 9 t h o f M a y a n d t h e y r e j e c te d t h e Ac t in g C E O ’s
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t t h is a w a r d b e g iv e n to A ir Fr a n c e th e y – t h e
m i n u t e o f t h e m e e ti n g r e f l e c ts th e fo ll o w i n g :
“the

submission

was

ta b l e d ,

s u b m is s io n a n d c o n s id e r e d .

th a t ’s

the

acting

C E O ’s

According to the submission

m a n a g e m e n t r e c o m m e n d e d th a t t h e t e n d e r b e a w a r d e d t o A ir
Fr a n c e .
20

A d i s c u s s i o n o n t h e m a t te r e n s u e d a n d th e B o a r d

m a d e th e f o l lo w i n g c o m m e n t s , m a n a g e m e n t r a ti o n a le f o r
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s th a t A i r Fr a n c e b e a w a r d e d t h e t e n d e r w a s
n o t s u b s t a n t iv e , c o n s i d e r i n g t h e b i d d e r ’s r e s is t a n c e t o a li g n
it s e l f

with

development.

S A AT ’s

d e v e lo p m e n t a l

agenda,

ie

supplier

F u r t h e r m o r e th e b e n e f it a s o u tl in e d b y t h e

s u b m is s io n a s a r e s u l t o f s e le c ti n g A i r F r a n c e w e r e n o t

Page 53 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
c o m p e l li n g e n o u g h to p o s i ti o n th e l a tt e r a s t h e p r e f e r r e d
b i d d e r. ”
I w o u l d li k e t o f o c u s o n th e f ir s t r e a s o n . T h e B o a r d s i ts o n th e 9 t h o f
M a y,

it

decides

for

one

of

tw o

reasons

not

to

go

w i th

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n i t h a s r e c e iv e d to a w a r d i t t o A ir Fr a n c e a n d th e
r e a s o n i t g iv e s is b e c a u s e A ir F r a n c e ’s t e n d e r w a s n o t s u b s t a n t iv e
c o n s i d e r in g

the

b i d d e r ’s

r e s is t a n c e

to

a l ig n

it s e l f

w i th

S A AT ’s

d e v e l o p m e n t a l a g e n d a , i e s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t .
MS MEMELA:
10

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

H o w c o u l d t h e y p o s s i b ly h a v e m a d e t h a t

e v a l u a t i o n if t h e r e w a s n ’ t a p r o p o s a l r e q u i r e d t h a t c o u l d b e c o m p a r e d .
MS MEMELA:

T h a n k y o u , t h a n k s f o r a s k in g t h a t.

C h a ir t h e A i r

Fr a n c e t h a t w e a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t , l ik e M s H o f m e y r ’s q u e s ti o n i s t h a t
h o w w o u ld t h e y h a v e r e a c h e d t h a t c o n c lu s i o n s i n c e t h e r e w a s n o
proposal made.

R e m e m b e r A ir Fr a n c e w a s t h e c u r r e n t s u p p l i e r f o r

c o m p o n e n t fo r S A AT s in c e 2 0 0 8 , r i g h t a n d d u r in g th a t ti m e u n t il 2 0 1 6
A ir Fr a n c e h a s g i v e n n o t h i n g b a c k t o t h is c o u n tr y t h r o u g h t h a t c o n tr a c t ,
a n d l ik e t h a t c o u l d h a v e b e e n s u p p l y d e v e l o p m e n t o r m a y b e s i n c e
s u p p ly d e v e lo p m e n t w a s n o t a p p li c a b le m a y b e b a c k t h e n , i t c o u l d h a v e
20

b e e n t h r o u g h N I P o b l i g a t io n b u t I c a n te ll y o u n o w C h a i r th r o u g h t h e i r
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e , l ik e th a t w a s s ta y i n g h e r e i n S o u t h A fr ic a fo r y e a r s
b e i n g p a i d t h r o u g h th e s a m e c o n tr a c t t h a t is p a i d w i t h th e m o n e y
c o m i n g fr o m t h i s c o u n tr y t h e y c o u l d h a v e m a y b e a p p o in t e d o r g o t t e n a
S o u th A f r ic a n , g iv e th e m t h a t j o b t o s a y o k a y y o u w i ll b e o u r
r e p r e s e n t a tiv e , w e w il l t r a in y o u , y o u w i l l d o , y o u w il l r e p r e s e n t o u r

Page 54 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
c o n tr a c t in S o u th A f r i c a , th a t is w h a t is m e a n t a b o u t g iv in g b a c k t o t h e
c o u n tr y, b u t l ik e fr o m 2 0 0 8 t o 2 0 1 6 A i r Fr a n c e h a d a c o n tr a c t , a
c o m p o n e n t c o n tr a c t w i th S A AT f o r a ll t h o s e y e a r s , th e y n e v e r a d h e r e d
t o e it h e r N I P o b li g a ti o n n o r a n y o th e r tr a n s fo r m a t i o n a l a g e n d a .

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h a t s ta t e m e n t b y t h e B o a r d , t h e y a r e n o t r e f e r r in g to
t h e t e n d e r p r o c e s s t h a t w a s r u n in 2 0 1 6 , th e y a r e r e fe r r i n g to th e
c o n tr a c t t h a t i n 2 0 0 8 t h a t t h e y n e v e r a d h e r e d to t h e l a w s o f t h is
c o u n tr y.
Yo u s e e C h a ir li k e I t h in k f o r m e t h e w a y I a m q u i te p a s s i o n a t e
10

a b o u t li k e t h i n g s t h a t h a v e t o d o w i t h B E E a n d e m p o w e r in g b l a c k o w n e d
s u p p li e r s , b la c k p e o p le i n S o u th A f r i c a , t h e s e th i n g s to u c h m e b e c a u s e
I m e a n w e a r e q u ic k to s a y f o r i n s t a n c e S t a te C a p t u r e i s s t a n d in g f o r
S o u th A f r ic a a s a S t a t e , a n d q u e s t io n in g e v e r y t h i n g th a t m a y h a v e –
o u r m o n e y s p e n t l ik e I m e a n ir r e g u l a r l y, l ik e ta x p a y e r s m o n e y, b u t w e
a r e u n a b l e to q u e s t io n E u r o p e a n c o u n tr i e s a n d a ll th e o t h e r c o u n tr i e s
lik e t h a t a r e g iv e n h u g e c o n tr a c ts fr o m u s , S o u t h A f r i c a a n d th e y a r e
n o t g i v i n g b a c k t o t h is c o u n tr y.
T h e p u r p o s e o f N I P o b l i g a t io n w a s to e n s u r e t h a t t h e s e p e o p l e
w h e n t h e y g e t t h e s e b i ll i o n r a n d o f c o n tr a c t t h e y g iv e b a c k to t h is

20

c o u n tr y. W e d o n ’ t h a v e s c h o o ls , w e d o n ’t h a v e h o s p i ta ls , n o t h i n g , a n d
t h e y e n j o y o u r m o n e y f o r fr e e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s n o w d o y o u k n o w a s a fa c t t h a t in – d u r i n g t h o s e

y e a r s , y o u t a l k e d a b o u t fr o m 2 0 0 8 .
MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

D o y o u k n o w f o r a fa c t t h a t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

Page 55 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS MEMELA:

A ir Fr a n c e .

CHAIRPERSON:

. .. t h e p o s i ti o n w a s t h a t A ir Fr a n c e m a y b e h a d g iv e n a

p o s i ti v e u n d e r ta k e n o r c o m m i t m e n t b u t f a il e d t o d o w h a t t h e y h a d
p r o m is e d to d o t h a t w o u l d h a v e e i th e r fa ll e n u n d e r N I P o b l i g a t io n o r
s u p p ly d e v e lo p m e n t o r i s t h e p o s i t i o n th a t t h e y h a d e v e n r e f u s e d to
c o m m i t t h e m s e l v e s , d o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e p o s i ti o n i s ?
MS MEMELA:

C h a ir I k n o w fo r a fa c t t h a t a s A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r h a s

b e e n s t a ti n g h e r e f o r t h e la s t t h r e e d a y s t h a t s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t , l ik e
N I P o b li g a ti o n is a n o b l ig a ti o n a n d I a l s o e x p l a i n e d , l ik e I s a i d a n
10

o b li g a ti o n b u t c o n tr o l le d a n d m a n a g e d b y t h e D T I .
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Mmm.
S h e r e a d th e a ffi d a v it f r o m D T I y o u s e e a n d r e m e m b e r

t h e d u t y o f a n S O C a t t h a t t i m e . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

N o I a m a n s w e r i n g y o u r q u e s ti o n .

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

B u t r e m e m b e r . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

Ye s a n s w e r t h e q u e s ti o n , j a .

Ex a c l ty, th e d u ty o f a n S O C a t t h a t t i m e is t o j u s t n o t i fy

D T I r i g h t a n d t h e n lik e I m e a n t h e n th e c o m m u n ic a ti o n w il l b e b e t w e e n
D T I a n d A ir Fr a n c e , b u t l ik e I a m s a y i n g I k n o w fo r a f a c t f r o m 2 0 0 8
20

u n t il t h e e n d o f th a t c o n tr a c t A ir Fr a n c e h a d n e v e r d e l iv e r e d a n y t h i n g
a c c o r d i n g to t h e l a w s o f t h is c o u n tr y, g iv in g b a c k to t h e e c o n o m y o f t h i s
c o u n tr y.
CHAIRPERSON:

The contract that they were having in 20 – was it

2 0 1 6 /2 0 1 7 ?
MS MEMELA: Mmm.

Page 56 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e c o n tr a c t is t h a t th e o n e t h a t h a p p e n e d r u n n i n g

form 2008?
MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

A n d th e y t e n d e r e d f o r th is o n e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

. . . a s w e l l, a n d n o w th e s u p p l ie r d e v e lo p m e n t

r e q u ir e m e n t b e g a n i n – is i t 2 0 1 3 ?
MS MEMELA:

A t a r o u n d 2 0 1 3 C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

MS MEMELA:

Around 2013.

Ye s n o b u t if y o u n o t ic e d I r e fe r r e d t o N I P o b l i g a t io n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b e f o r e th a t .

MS MEMELA:

Ye s , b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r N I P o b l i g a t io n h a s b e e n i n

p l a c e s in c e 1 9 9 7 .
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Fo r lo n g e r.
S o li k e t h e y c a n ’ t c o m e u p w i th a n e x c u s e t h a t o k a y

b e c a u s e s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t w a s n o t t h e r e a n d s tu ff , b u t li k e N I P
o b li g a ti o n w a s t h e r e , t h a t 3 0 % f r o m t h e ir c o n tr a c t s h o u ld h a v e c a m e t o
t h is c o u n tr y t h r o u g h D TI , s o o f c o u r s e li k e I m e a n q u e s ti o n s s h o u l d
h a v e b e e n a s k e d fr o m D T I, m a y b e th e y h a v e th e i r r e a s o n s w h y t h e y l e t
20

t h e m g o s c o t- fr e e , w e d o n ’ t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms Memela a m oment ago in your testimony

y o u s a i d t h a t y o u b e l ie v e d t h e B o a r d d id n o t r e je c t Ai r Fr a n c e o n t h is
b a s is , b a s e d o n t h e i r te n d e r, b u t o n t h e b a s is o f t h e ir p r e v io u s
p e r f o r m a n c e u n d e r o t h e r c o n t r a c t s , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

D o y o u r e c a ll h a v i n g g iv e n t h a t e v id e n c e .

H e y, h a h , n o , I . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

If you don’t recall you m ay have you may not.
O r C h a ir o r i t i s li k e m a y b e t h e y s a i d b a s e d o n t h e ir

p r e v i o u s p e r f o r m a n c e a n d s t u ff .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

T h e r e a s o n w h y s h e is s t a r ti n g b y a s k i n g y o u is t h a t

s h e d o e s n ’ t w a n t t o p u t y o u a q u e s t io n a n d t h e n y o u h a v e a f ig h t a b o u t
w h e t h e r y o u s a i d t h a t , s o s h e w a n t s t o c l e a r th a t , c le a r t h a t o u t o f t h e
10

w a y t h a t y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t th a t w a s y o u r e v i d e n c e .

Yo u d o n ’ t

remember or you do remember?
MS M EM ELA: Can you repeat your question, maybe, ja.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ye s , I tr i e d to t a k e n o t e o f i t w o r d fo r w o r d ,

you said:
“ T h e b o a r d d i d n o t r e j e c t A ir Fr a n c e f o r s u p p ly d e v e lo p m e n t
r e a s o n s b a s e d o n t h e c u r r e n t t e n d e r. W h a t t h e y w e r e l o o k i n g
a t is t h e f a i l u r e s o f A ir Fr a n c e p r e v io u s ly u n d e r a l l t h e ir o t h e r
c o n tr a c ts w i t h S A AT t o m a k e a n a d e q u a te c o m m i t m e n t t o
S u p p ly D e v e l o p m e n t . ”
20

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e m t o r e m e m b e r t h a t y o u s a i d s o a s w e ll , t h a t ’s

m y r e c o ll e c t io n .
MS MEMELA:

Just now?

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

No, no yesterday and the day before.

Ye s t e r d a y.

Page 58 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

J a , w e l l y o u m i g h t h a v e r e p e a t e d it n o w.
I s a i d , l ik e I m e a n th e s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t t h e y h a d

lis t e d i t a s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s a n d li k e ju s t tw o m i n u te s o r t h r e e
m i n u t e s a g o I a c tu a lly j u s t g a v e a n e x a m p le t h a t A ir Fr a n c e h a d a
c o n tr a c t w it h S A AT a n d n e v e r a d h e r e d to th e N I P o b li g a ti o n , s o l ik e I
s a i d o k a y s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t m a y h a v e b e e n o n e o f th a t y o u k n o w a n d
a ls o th e a d d i t io n a l r e a s o n I t h i n k i t w a s t h e r is k th a t th e y h a d l is te d
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

10

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Ms M e m e l a I a m n o t f o c u s e d o n t h e s e c o n d

reason,

on

I am

focused

the

s u p p li e r

d e v e lo p m e n t r e a s o n .

I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h i s C o m m i s s io n t o b e t h e B o a r d d i d
not

have

a

concern

about

d e v e l o p m e n t i n t h i s t e n d e r.

A ir

F r a n c e ’s

commitment

to

supply

I t w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t p r e v i o u s f a il u r e s

o n th e p a r t o f A ir Fr a n c e t o c o m m i t a d e q u a te ly t o s u p p ly d e v e lo p m e n t ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M S M E M E L A : O h y e s I a g r e e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

I n r e s p e c t o f o t h e r c o n t r a c ts .
Ye s , n o I a g r e e , t h e y d i d n o t – I d o u b t t h e y h a d a

c o n c e r n b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r A ir Fr a n c e h a d b i d d e d w it h A q w a n a C a p i t a l
20

s o th e y a d h e r e d t o th e fi n a l c o n t r a c t.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

J a , y o u s e e M s M e m e l a le t m e te ll y o u w h a t

t h e p r o b l e m w i t h t h a t is .
MS MEMELA:

Oh?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

T h e p r o b le m is t h a t i t m e a n s A ir Fr a n c e o c u l d

n e v e r h a v e b e e n a w a r d e d t h is te n d e r b y t h e B o a r d .

Page 59 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS MEMELA:

Oh, why?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t m e e x p la i n w h y.

A ir Fr a n c e a n d A A R , J M

Av i a ti o n b o t h i n d ic a t e d o n t h a t c r i t ic a l c r i t e r i a i n t h e ir b i d s u b m i s s i o n s
y e s t o s u p p li e r d e v e lo p m e n t .

They ma de the commitment, and that

w a s m a d e c le a r t o t h e B o a r d in t h e s u b m is s io n fr o m t h e a c ti n g C E O , s o
in t e r m s o f t h e b i d r e q u ir e m e n t s A i r Fr a n c e a n d J M Av ia t io n a n d A A R
g a v e e x a c tl y t h e s a m e c o m m i t m e n t t o s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t , b u t th e
B o a r d a t o n t h e 9 t h o f M a y a n d d e s p i t e t h a t d e c i d e d th a t it w a s n o t
g o i n g t o a w a r d t h is t e n d e r t o t h e r e c o m m e n d e d b i d d e r, b e c a u s e o f
10

s o m e h i s t o r ic n o n - c o m m i t m e n t t o s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t a n d i f t h a t is s o
t h e p r o c e s s w a s g r o s s l y ir r e g u l a r a n d t h e r e w a s n o p r o s p e c t o f A ir
Fr a n c e e v e r w i n n i n g t h a t t e n d e r. D o y o u h a v e a c o m m e n t o n i t?
MS MEMELA:

( la u g h i n g )

CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s M s M e m e la ?
I a m r e a l ly c o n fu s e d C h a ir, m a y b e b e c a u s e I r a n t h e

p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s , I d o n ’ t k n o w . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

T h e r e is n o w a y h e r e th a t s a y s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON:
20

O k a y, l e t m e p u t i t .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

L e t m e p u t i t t o y o u t h i s w a y. L e t m e p u t i t t h is w a y.

Yo u g a v e e v id e n c e t h is m o r n i n g i n r e g a r d to t h e s u p p l ie r d e v e l o p m e n t
r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t a l l th a t w a s r e q u ir e d o f a b i d d e r u n d e r s u p p li e r
d e v e l o p m e n t is t o in d i c a t e y e s , w h ic h w o u l d b e a c o m m i t m e n t o n t h e i r
p a r t t o d o in g w h a t is e x p e c te d u n d e r s u p p l ie r d e v e l o p m e n t .
MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a i r

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a i d i t w a s n o t r e q u ir e d o f a b i d d e r a t th e ti m e o f

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
s u b m i tt i n g t h e ir b i d t o g iv e a n y d e ta il s r e a l ly, a s lo n g a s i t s a i d y e s .
MS MEMELA:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

S o M s H o f m e y r is s a y i n g to y o u w h e n t h e B o a r d h a d

t o c o n s i d e r w h e th e r t o g o a lo n g w i t h t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f th e C E O
t h a t A ir Fr a n c e s h o u l d b e th e o n e a w a r d e d a n d t h e y d e c id e d th a t n o
t h a t s h o u ld n o t h a p p e n i t s h o u l d b e A A R t h e i r r e a s o n in s o f a r a s t h e y
s a i d i t is o n S u p p ly D e v e l o p m e n t . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MS MEMELA:

Oh.

CHAIRPERSON:
10

. . . c o u l d n o t b e l e g i ti m a t e b e c a u s e t h e a n s w e r s t h a t

w e r e g iv e n b y b o th A ir F r a n c e a n d A A R w e r e e x a c tl y th e s a m e in r e g a r d
t o s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t . S h e s a y s i f t h e a n s w e r s a r e th e e x a c t ly t h e
s a m e a n d a b i d d e r is n o t r e q u ir e d to g i v e a n y d e t a i ls j u s t th e a n s w e r
y e s is g o o d e n o u g h , t h e n i t m u s t b e g o o d e n o u g h f o r e a c h o n e o f t h e m ,
s o s h e i s s a y in g t h e n t h is r e a s o n a d v a n c e d b y th e B o a r d d o e s n o t m a k e
sense. What do you say?
MS MEMELA:

C h a ir I s a y C h a i r in t h i s b o a r d r e s o l u t i o n i t d o e s n o t

s a y li k e I m e a n b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r e v e n y e s t e r d a y I s a id s o m e t i m e s t h e
m i n u t e t a k i n g d i ff e r fr o m o n e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y to t h e o th e r s o h e r e
t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y s a y s h e r e a r e t h e f o l lo w in g c o m m e n t s th a t w e r e
20

made

by

the

m a n a g e m e n t’s

Board
r a t io n a l e

and
for

the

Board

made

r e c o m m e n d a t io n

the
that

comment
A ir

Fr a n c e

that
be

a w a r d e d t h e te n d e r w a s n o t s u b s t a n t iv e c o n s i d e r i n g t h e b i d d e r h a s t h e
c h a n c e t o a li g n i ts e lf t o S o u t h A fr ic a n D e v e l o p m e n t A g e n d a t h a t is
s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t .

F u r th e r m o r e t h e b e n e fi ts a s o u tl i n e d b y t h e

s u b m is s io n a s a r e s u l t o f s e l e c t in g A ir Fr a n c e w e r e n o t c o m p e ll in g

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
e n o u g h t o p o s it i o n t h e la t t e r a s t h e p r e f e r r e d b i d d e r.
B u t M s H o f m e y r w h e n s h e r e a d s t h i s s h e r e a d s it a s i f th e
B o a r d d e c l i n e d t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b y t h e Ac t in g C E O b e c a u s e o f
s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t .

S o y o u s e e I m e a n t h e s e w e r e c o m m e n t s th a t

w e r e m a d e i n t h e B o a r d m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hang on, hang on, she said one of the reasons given

w a s s u p p l y d e v e lo p m e n t, M s H o f m e y r ” ?
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I n d e e d C h a ir.

Ar e y o u s a y i n g th a t i s n o t t r u e , i t w a s n o t o n e o f t h e

reasons?
MS MEMELA:

W h a t s h e h a d s t a t e d l ik e i t is p i ty I w o u l d n ’ t w a n t f o r u s

t o g o b a c k t o t h e tr a n s c r ip t a n d s t u ff b u t l ik e s h e s a i d b e c a u s e
. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

No but what I want you to start by saying is whether

y o u s a y i t is n o t t r u e th a t t h a t is o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s t h e B o a r d g a v e o r
y o u s a y i t i s tr u e b u t I h a v e th is to a d d ?
MS MEMELA:

I n t h a t d is c u s s i o n C h a ir t h e c o m p a n y s e c r e t a r y h a s

r e c o r d e d t h a t d is c u s s io n .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Let us start the way I am saying, was it one of the

r e a s o n s , t h e n y o u c a n a d d if y o u w a n t t o a d d .
MS MEMELA:

I t w a s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s t h a t w a s s ta t e d i n t h e

c o m m e n t b u t i t c o u l d n o t b e a r e a s o n t o r e j e c t th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n i n
the way it was put.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w a s a r e a s o n f o r w h a t? I t w a s g iv e n a s a r e a s o n

f o r w h a t?

Page 62 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS MEMELA:

R e m e m b e r C h a ir w h e n m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is th a t l ik e i f

t h e B o a r d i s n o t e x p e c t e d , I a m n o t a B o a r d m e m b e r r ig h t , b u t m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g li k e o f c o r p o r a te g o v e r n a n c e o r c o m p a n y l a w is t h a t I
m e a n t h e B o a r d d o e s n o t s i t t h e r e to r u b b e r s t a m p w h a t e v e r is p u t i n
fr o n t o f i t .
CHAIRPERSON:
that.

N o , n o l e t u s n o t g o t h e r e , th e q u e s ti o n is n o t a b o u t

T h e q u e s t io n is w e ll o n e , y o u h a v e s a id t h a t i t w a s o n e o f t h e

r e a s o n s , s o m y q u e s ti o n i s i t w a s o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s fo r w h a t , b e c a u s e
M s H o f m e y r s a y s i t w a s o n e o f th e r e a s o n s g iv e n b y
10

the Board for

r e j e c t in g th e C E O ’s r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t A ir F r a n c e s h o u l d b e g iv e n .
MS MEMELA:

Supply chain, mm m, Chair she made a statement that

t h e B o a r d l ik e it l o o k s l ik e A ir Fr a n c e w o u l d n ’ t h a v e w o n a n y w a y
b e c a u s e t h e B o a r d . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t u s n o t g o t o t h e s t a te m e n t , l e t u s g o t o t h e o n e

that I am saying.
MS MEMELA:

O h , o k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

M s H o f m e y r s a y s t h e B o a r d , o n e o f th e r e a s o n s

g iv e n b y th e B o a r d w h y t h e y d i d n o t a c c e p t t h e C E O ’s p r o p o s a l o r
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t A ir Fr a n c e s h o u l d b e a w a r d e d w a s s u p p l y
20

development.
MS MEMELA:

S h e s a y s s h e i s n o t i n te r e s t e d in t h e o th e r r e a s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a y i t w a s o n e o f th e r e a s o n s b u t n o t f o r

r e j e c t in g , s o I a m a s k in g t h e q u e s ti o n w h a t w a s i t g iv e n a s a r e a s o n f o r
then?
MS MEMELA:

For

me

w h a t I r e a d t h e r e C h a ir, m a y b e o u r

Page 63 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
in t e r p r e t a ti o n m a y n o t b e t h e s a m e , b u t l ik e w h a t I r e a d t h e r e , t h e r e
a r e – t h e B o a r d b e f o r e i t m a k e s a d e c is i o n m y u n d e r s t a n d in g i s t h a t
t h e y g o t h r o u g h d i s c u s s io n s a n d d i s c u s s a n d r a is e th e ir c o n c e r n s h e r e
a n d t h e r e a n d s t u ff li k e t h a t , s o h o w t h is – li k e I m e a n t h is p a r a g r a p h i s
r e c o r d e d h e r e , i t s a y s l ik e I m e a n th e B o a r d m a d e th e f o l lo w in g
c o m m e n t s a n d t h e n lik e h e r e i t is s t a t e d t h a t o k a y t h e y e v e n r a is e d t h a t
le g b e c a u s e t h e y h a v e n o t a d h e r e d t o t h e s u p p ly d e v e l o p m e n t a n d
w h a r r a h - w h a r r a h - w h a r r a h , s o l ik e f o r m e I a m in t e r p r e t i n g th is a s a
c o m m e n t , n o t t h e r e a s o n t h a t t h e B o a r d r e l i e d o n to m a k e th e ir f in a l
10

d e c is i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y Ms M e m e la w e a r e g o i n g t o m o v e o n , y o u j u s t

s a i d e a r l i e r o n i t w a s a r e a s o n , b u t n o t f o r t h e r e j e c ti o n o f t h e C E O ’s
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
MS MEMELA:

O k a y C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , o k a y, a lr ig h t .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

L e t ’s m o v e o n .

T h a n k y o u C h a i r.

I d o i n t e n d t o m o v e to a

d i ff e r e n t t o p ic a n d t h a t is j u s t th e s t e p s t a k e n t o f o l lo w u p o n t h e
c o m p li a n c e b y A A R a n d J M Av i a t i o n o f t h e ir c o n t r a c t u a l o b l ig a ti o n s
u n d e r th e te n d e r.
20

MS MEMELA:

T h e s te p s t a k e n b y ?

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

So it is - what was your role in relation to

e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e c o m m i t m e n ts th a t h a d b e e n g iv e n b y J M Av i a ti o n a n d
A A R u n d e r t h e c o n t r a c t w e r e b e i n g f u l fi ll e d .

D i d y o u p l a y a n y r o l e in

that regard?
MS MEMELA:

O f c o u r s e lik e I m e a n t h e r e w il l b e d i s c u s s io n s b u t t h e y

Page 64 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
w i ll n o t b e r u n b y m e , th e y w il l b e r u n b y t h e u n i t th a t is r e s p o n s ib le fo r
t h a t , b e in g B E E a n d S u p p ly D e v e l o p m e n t fo ll o w i n g u p a n d d is c u s s i n g
w h a t i s i t t h a t h a s t o b e in t h e p r o p o s a l a s I s a id e a r l ie r C h a ir, t h a t
o k a y th e y w o u l d s i t a n d s it w it h a l o c a l s u p p l ie r a n d d i s c u s s w h a t n e e d s
t o b e t h e r e a n d th e y m i g h t c a l l m e in i f t h e y n e e d m y g u id a n c e o n
c e r t a i n th in g s a n d s t u ff , j a .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

A n d th e o t h e r c o n tr a c tu a l c o m m i t m e n ts lik e

h a v i n g a s i t e m a n a g e r i n p la c e a t S A AT, is t h a t s o m e t h i n g y o u w e r e
f o ll o w i n g u p o n ?
10

MS MEMELA:

Si t e m a n a g e r a ls o i t is p a r t o f th e – s i te m a n a g e r w o u ld

b e p a r t o f th e p r o p o s a l t h a t i s p u t i n p la c e , a n d I r e m e m b e r th e r e w a s a
s m a ll p r o g r a m t h a t w a s r u n b y B E E a n d S u p p ly D e v e l o p m e n t U n i t t h a t
t h e y w e r e a c tu a lly a r r a n g i n g o ff ic e s p a c e fo r B E E c o m p a n ie s l ik e to
h a v e o ff ic e s a t S A AT, s o t h a t lik e w h e n t h e y a r e w o r k i n g w i t h t h e s e
m u l ti n a t io n a l c o m p a n i e s a t l e a s t th e y a r e w i t h i n th e s i te , s o t h a t w il l b e
p a r t o f t h e p l a n ja .
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

J a , I a m ju s t i n t e r e s te d t o k n o w w h o w o u l d

f o ll o w u p a b o u t t h a t?
MS MEMELA:
20

I t w i ll b e M s P r i n c e s s Ts h a b a l a l a w h o w i ll b e – w h o w a s

fi n d i n g o u t o k a y w h e r e is t h e o ff ic e , m a y b e s h e w i ll f in d a s p a c e w h e r e
t h e r e is a s c r a p t h a t is s i t ti n g t h e r e t h a t i s n o l o n g e r u s e d a n d tr y a n d
s e e i f i t c o u l d b e o p e n e d f o r s o m e s u p p l ie r s , b u t s h e w a s n o t o n ly
d o i n g i t fo r J M , lik e t h e r e w e r e l o ts o f o t h e r s u p p li e r s t h a t w e r e g iv e n
o ffic e s p a c e i n c l u d i n g Ms S a m b o w h o h a s b e e n w i t h o t h e r B E E
s u p p li e r s , b e i n g k ic k e d o u t b y Mr S c h a lk H u m a n , t h e y n o l o n g e r h a v e

Page 65 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
t h e o ffi c e s p a c e a t S A AT, i t i s a r e v e r s a l a c t u a ll y o f th e tr a n s m is s io n a l
agenda.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

Chair I see that we are just past the tea

adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

Ye s , I j u s t n o t ic e d t o o .

I’ m s o r r y C h a ir.

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
a n t ic i p a te

t h is

le v e l

I h a v e t o s a y i n m y d e fe n c e I tr u ly d i d n o t
of

debate

on

my

q u e s t io n

about

s u p p ly

development.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :

B u t w e – p o s s i b ly i t i s c o n v e n i e n t t o ta k e a

short adjournment and return, I am in your hands.
CHAIRPERSON:
MS MEMELA:

W e l l w e c a n . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

F in is h .

CHAIRPERSON:

O r t a k e i t a t h a l f p a s t b u t i f i t is c o n v e n ie n t to t a k e i t

n o w w e c a n ta k e i t n o w.
A D V K AT E H O F M E Y R :
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k w e c a n ta k e i t n o w i n d e e d .

O k a y l e t’s t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t , w e w i ll r e s u m e

– i t is t w e n ty p a s t n o w, w e w il l r e s u m e a t t w e n ty fi v e t o tw e l v e .
20

We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y le t u s g e t g o in g .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 66 of 105

Mis s Me me la w e w e r e ju s t

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
d e a lin g w ith th e fo llo w u p s a fte r th e c o n tr a c t w a s c o n c lu d e d in r e la tio n to
J M Av ia tio n a n d A AR ’s o b lig a tio n s .

W h a t I a m in te r e s te d in is , w e h a d

e v id e nc e fr o m Mr H u ma n , th a t o n e o f th e o b lig a tio n s o f J M Av ia tio n u n d e r
th e c o n tr a c t w a s to h a v e a fu ll ti me r e p o n th e p r e mis e s a n d to s u p p o r t
th e d a y - to - d ay o p e r a tio n s a t SAAT, a n d h is e v id e nc e w a s th a t it h a s n e v e r
b e e n d o n e . D id y o u fo llo w u p on th a t w h e n y o u w e r e in th e p r oc u re me n t
p r o v is io n , th a t p o s itio n ?
MS ME MELA :

D id I fo llo w u p th a t th e r e w a s a r e p ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

MS MEM ELA :

Ye s .

C h a ir, a s I h a v e e x p la in e d e a r lie r th a t my u n d er s ta n d in g ,

a ll th e BEE s u p p lie r s lik e th a t a r e r e p re s entin g e ith e r th e ir mu lti- n a tio n a l
s u p p lie rs o r th e y a re c o min g o n th e ir o wn . We h a d o ff ic e s a r r an g e d fo r
th e m to b e th e r e a t SAAT, s o if I r e me mb e r c o r r ec tly th e r e w a s s o me o ne
fr o m J M b u t lik e I n e v e r g o t to me e t th e m b e c a us e lik e r e me mb e r th e r e
w a s Se n io r Ma n a g e r BEE a n d s u p p lie r d e v e lo p me n t th a t w a s r u n n in g th a t.
Ye s s o [in te r v e n e s ].
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

So [in te r v e n es ].

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
20

Th is w a s a s p e c ific [in te r v e n e s ].

MS MEM ELA :

So r r y, a p o lo g ie s .

So , I a m n o t s u r e w h a t is th e v ie w o f Mr H u ma n .

R e me mb e r Mr H u ma n h a s n e ve r b ee n the r e w he n th e se tr a n sa c tio ns
h a p p e n ed . H e w a s o n ly a s k e d to a c t in my p r e v io u s p o s itio n , I th in k ju s t
la s t y e a r s o wh a te v er h e is g iv in g he r e is e ith e r h e ar sa y or w h a tev e r
[in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

J a , h e w a s b a s e d o n d oc ume n ta tio n .

Page 67 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS ME MELA :

Ja.

C H A IR PER SO N:

H e ma d e th e p o in t th a t h e h a d n o p er s o na l k n ow le d g e

o f a lo t o f th in g s . ..[ in te r v e n e s ].
MS ME MELA :

O h , o k a y.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

Ye s C h a ir

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS M EMELA :

Bu t h e h a d lo o k e d a t r e c or d s a n d [in te r v en e s ].

An d mo s tly h e w a s g iv in g e v id e nc e b a se d o n r e co r ds .

Ye s , b u t my u n d e r s ta n d in g is a ls o th a t lik e ma y b e in h is

p o s itio n h e w o u ld h a ve me t w ith th e c u r r e n t s u p p lie r to fin d o u t if th a t h a d
10

h a p p e n ed .
A D V K ATE HO FMEYR :

H is e v id e nc e wa s th a t it h a d n o t, a n d it w a s no t

a g e n e r a l BEE s u p p lie r fa c ility a t SAAT. I t i s a c o n tr ac tu a l o b lig a tio n th a t
J M Av ia tio n h a v e a n o n - s ite r e p r e s e n ta tive to a s s is t o n th e d a y - to - d a y
p e r fo r ma nc e u n d e r th e c o n tr a c t. D id y o u e v e r c h ec k w h e th e r th e r e w a s a
J M Av ia tio n r e p r es e n ta tiv e p e r for min g th a t r o le a fte r th e c o n tr a c t w a s
c o n c lud e d ?
MS ME MELA :

I h a v e n e v e r c h ec k ed th a t C h a ir b e c a us e th e r e w as a

r e p r es e n ta tiv e wh o is r es p o ns ib le fo r th a t a n d w h o r e po r ts to me , a n d my,
a n d th e r e p o r tin g w a s th a t lik e th e r e w a s s o me b o dy w h o is c o min g fr o m
20

J M a n d th e r e w a s s o me bo d y co min g fr o m S AAT, fr o m AAR w h o is a b le to
a n s we r s o me te c hn ic a l q u es tio n s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u , a n d th e n ju s t th e o b lig a tio n to h a v e

th e jo in t v e n tu r e b e tw e e n J M Av ia tio n a n d AAR In c o r p o r a te d w ith in tw e lv e
mo n th s o f th e a g r e e me n t. Ar e y o u a w a r e o f th a t o b lig a tio n ?
MS ME MELA :

Th e r e is a n o b lig a tio n to , to h a v e ?

Page 68 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
A D V K ATE HO FMEYR :

To h a v e J M Av ia tio n a n d AAR ’s jo in t v e n tu r e

in c o r po r a te d w ith in tw e lv e [in te r ve n e s ].
MS ME MELA :

W i th in a y e a r

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

Ye s , I th in k I d o r e me mb e r th a t C h a ir.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS MEM ELA :

W ith in a y e a r.

D id a n y o n e fo llo w up o n th a t?

I th in k w e h a d fo llo w e d u p b u t lik e n o t me s p e c ific a lly,

a n d I a m n o t s u r e h o w fa r i t is r ig h t n o w b e c a u s e I c a n r e me mb e r lik e I d o
n o t fo llo w u p lik e o n b e h a lf o f my, th e p e o p le th a t a r e r e s p on s ib le fo r
10

c e r ta in r o les .
A D V K ATE HO FMEYR :

So , b y 2 0 J u ly 20 1 8 th e y ne e d e d to h a v e a n

in c o r po r a te d jo in t v e n tu r e a n d th e y n e e d e d to h a v e a lo c a l b a n k a c c o u n t.
To y o u r k n o w le dg e d id a n y o n e fo llo w u p o n w h e th e r th e y h a d fu lfille d th a t
o b lig a tio n ?
MS M EMELA :

In 2 0 1 8 C h a ir, I w a s a lr e a dy o u t o f s ig h t s o I w o u ld n o t

k n ow.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So r r y I me a n t, a p olo g ie s , b y J u ly 20 1 7 th ey h a d

to h a v e c o mp lie d w ith th o s e o b lig a tio ns .
MS ME MELA :
20

I h a v e n o k n o w le d ge o f, ja .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u .

Mis s Me me la , o n th e fir s t d a y o f

y o u r ev id e nc e w h ic h I h a v e to s a y r ig h t n o w fe e ls ma n y d ay s a go I a m
s u r e fo r y ou a s w e ll.
MS ME MELA :

Me to o a s w e ll

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u r a is e d th e is s u e th a t I to o k y o u to a C o n flic t

o f In te r e s t Po lic y a t a p o in t .

Page 69 of 105

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS ME MELA :

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d it w a s th e S AA G r o u p Po lic y a n d o n th e

fr o n t p a g e o f it , it s a id ”R e c o mme n d e d fo r a d o p tio n b y Su b s id iar ie s ”.
MS ME MELA :

Ye s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d y o u r a is e d a c o n ce r n a b o u t y o u , y o u w e r e

n o t a w a r e o f it a n d th a t, w a s th e r e s o me p r oo f th a t it h a d b e e n a d o p te d o r
n o t.

So p u r s u a n t to th a t r e q u e s t C h a ir, w e e n g a g e d th e p e r so n w h o

h e a d s th e c o mp lia nc e a nd g ov e r n an c e a t SAA. I t is Mr C h a d i, a n d h e h a s
b e e n in th a t p o s itio n s in c e 2 011 .
10

H e h a s p r o v id e d an a ffid a v it to th e

C o mmis s ion . U n le s s Mis s Me me la w a n ts to g o th e r e , I d o n o t th in k it is
n e c es s ar y fo r y o u to g o th e r e C h a ir.
MS ME MELA :

Oh.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

Th e u p s h o t o f w h a t Mr C h a d i s a ys

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d y o u c a n ce r ta in ly r e sp o n d to it if y o u w o u ld

lik e to Mis s Me me la .
MS ME MELA :

I w o u ld lik e to .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :
20

It is in D D 2 5 ( b ) a t p a g e 7 5 2 .

752.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , i t s h o u ld b e r ig h t to w a r d s th e e n d .

Mr C h a d i s a ys th e r e th a t, h e c o n fir ms h e is th e C o mp lia n c e a n d
G o v e rn a n ce O ffic e r a t So u th Afr ic a n Air w a y s a n d h e mak es c le ar h e ha s
b e e n h o ld in g th a t p o s itio n s in c e 1 Ma r ch 2 0 11 .

I a m ju s t g o in g to

p a r a p hr a se fo r th e p u r p os es o f th is p o in t. H e in d ic a tes th a t th e C o n flic t
o f In te r e s t p o lic y w h ic h g r ou p c o mp lia nc e is th e c u s to d ia n o f, is a g r o u p

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p o lic y a p p lic a b le to SAA, its s u b s id ia r ies , a p o lo g ie s .
MS ME MELA :

O h , I a m s till tr y in g to fin d [i n te r v e n es ].

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

I th in k Mis s Mb a n jw a w a nts th e p a g e n u mb e r.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

It is 7 5 2 .

I fo u n d it C h a ir.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS MB A N J WA:

I a m ju s t w a itin g f o r Mis s Mb a n jwa to g e t th e r e .

Th a n k y o u .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

O h , I d id n o t r e a lis e th a t.

Th a n k y o u .

So wh a t Mr C h a d i g o es o n to s ay

th e r e th a t th e C o n flic t o f In te r e s t Po lic y wh ic h g ro u p c o mp lia n ce is th e
c u s to d ia n o f, is a g r o u p p o licy a p p lica b le to SAA , its s u b s id ia r ies a n d
o u t- s ta tio n s .
Th e s c o pe o f th e p o lic y d o e s inc lu d e a ll s ub s id ia r ies o f SAA a n d
th a t in c lu d e s SAA Te c h n ic a l a n d h e g o e s o n a n d s a y s , in th e a b s e n c e o f a
C o n flic t o f In te r e s t Po lic y o r an y po lic y at th e s u b s id ia ry le ve l h a v ing
b e e n a d o p te d , th e g r o u p C on flic t o f In te r e s t Po lic y o r G r o u p Po lic y s h a ll
b e a p p lic a b le .
So , w h a t Mis s Me me la h a d b e e n as k ing fo r th e o th e r d a y is
e v id e nc e th a t it h a d b e e n a d o p te d . W h a t M r C h a d i h a s c la r ifie d fo r u s is

20

th a t it is th e d e fa u lt is th a t it a p p lie s , b u t it w ill o n ly n o t a p p ly if s o me
o th e r p o licy h as b e en a d op te d , a s I r e ad h is a ffid a v it, o h I a m s o r ry I s e e
th e r e is a [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS MB A N J WA:

Ye s , Mis s Mb a n jw a ?
Th a n k y o u C h a ir. Th e w a y I u n d e r s ta n d it, if a p o lic y

h a s b e en a d o p te d , th e a d o p tio n o f th e p o lic y w ill b e s e lf- e v ide n t o n th e

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
p o lic y its e lf. O r th e r e w ill b e a r e s o lu tio n to s a y s u c h a p o licy is a d o p te d .
Ad o p tio n o f a p o lic y c a n n o t b e d o n e b y me an s [in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th a t - th a t Mis s Mb a n jw a y o u c a n us e in y o u r r e -

e x a min a tio n o r in a r g u men t.
MS MB A N J WA:

Th a n k y o u , C h a ir.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e n h e ju s t c la r ifie s fu r th e r th a t th e a c tu a l

C o n flic t o f In te r e s t Po lic y th a t w e d e a lt w i th in th e e v id e n c e o n Fr id a y
w a s a p p lic a b le to SAAT a t th e time a n d is s till a p p lic a b le c ur r e n tly as n o
o th e r C o n flic t o f In te r e s t Po lic y h a s b e e n a do p te d b y SAAT p r e v io u s ly a n d
10

c u r re n tly.
An d th e n h e c o nc lu d es b y in d ic a tin g th a t th e r e is a pr o ce ss o n
a n n u a l in te r na l c o mmu n ic a tio n to r e mind emp lo y e es a n d to a ler t th e m o f
th e C o n flic t o f In te r e s t Po lic y th a t w a s is s u ed th r o u g h My SA , SA A. C h a ir
h e d o e s n o t e x p la in it th e r e b u t it is th e i n te r n a l e - ma il c o mmu n ic a tio n
w ith in SAA in o r a r o un d Ap r il 2 0 1 6 and h e in d ica te s th ey r ec e ive
d e c la ra tio n s fr o m SAA a n d SAAT e mp lo y e e s o v e r th e y e a r s , e x ce p t th a t
n o t e v e r yo n e h a s c o mp lie d .
An d th e n w h a t fo llo w s th a t in h is , in th e b u n d le is ju s t s o me
s c re e n sh o ts o f w h e n th a t w a s se n t o u t w h ic h in c lu d e Miss Me me la a s a

20

r e c ip ie n t. Yo u w ill s e e th a t Mis s Me me la a t p a g e 7 5 4 . D o y o u h a v e a n y
b a s is to d is p u te w ha t Mr C h a d i is s a y ing h e re ?
MS ME MELA :

C h a ir, [in te r v e n es ].

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

We ll le t ’s s ta r t – le t ’s s ta r t . ..[in te r v e n e s ].

Fir s tly . .. [in te r v e n e s ].

C H A IR PER SO N:

I a m s o r r y.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS ME MELA :

O k a y.

C H A IR PER SO N:

L e t u s s ta r t fir s t b y c o n fir min g th a t y o u k n o w Mr C ha d i

b e c a us e h e s ay s h e h as b e e n th e r e s in c e 20 11 .
MS ME MELA :

Ye s . I a m g e ttin g th e r e C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

An d y o u k n o w h im a s C o mp lia n c e O ffic e r o r w h a te v e r

th e p o s itio n .
MS ME MELA :

Ye s . C h a ir I – I – I w a n te d t o c o r r ec t th a t.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS MEME LA :
10

Ye s .

Th e s ta te me n t th a t h a s b e e n ma d e b y Mis s Ho fme y r. Sh e

s a id Mr C h a d i is th e H e a d o f R isk a n d C o mplia n c e fo r SAA. Sh e is n o t .
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

I th in k s h e ma y ...[ in te r v en e s ].

I h e a r d h e r ... [in te r v e n e s ].

C H A IR PER SO N:

H a v e ta k e n th a t fr o m th e a ffid a v it.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

N o , it is n o t h e r e .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

Ap o lo g ie s [in te r v e ne s ].

If I h a d s a id th a t it w a s in e r ro r,

J a s h e s a id th a t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

L e t me r e a d it c o r re c tly :

“I a m th e C o mp lia n c e a nd G o v er n a nc e O ffic e r a t
20

So u th Afr ic a n Air w a ys .”
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS MEM ELA :

Ye s o k a y.

Ye s , s o I ju s t h a d to c o r r ec t h e r s ta te me n t b e c a us e th a t

w h a t s h e p u t o u t th e r e o n th e p u b lic th a t he is th e h e ad . So , y e s I k n ow
Mr C h a d i, y e s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s .

Ye s – y e s o k a y, a n d th e q u e s tio n w a s w h e th e r

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
y o u d is p u te wh a t h e s a ys th e r e ?
MS MEMELA :

I d is p u te it to a c e r ta in e xte n t th a t h e is s a y in g th a t if

th e r e , is it lik e s o me o f th e su b s id ia r ies h a v e n o t a do p te d th e p o lic y,
a u to ma tic a lly th is o n e d o e s .
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

Ex a c tly.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

MS ME MELA :

Th a t y o u a c c e p t?

N o , n o I a m s a y in g I d is p u te th a t [in te r v e n e s ].

C H A IR PER SO N:
10

Ap p lie s ja .

O h , y o u s a y y o u d is pu te th a t?

Ex a c tly.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS M EMELA :

O k a y.
Ma y b e if Mis s H o fme y r c a n a c tu a lly s h ow me th a t

p r o v is io n w ith in th a t , b e c a u s e it s h o u ld n o t ju s t b e c o min g fr o m
Mr C h a d i, it s h o u ld a ls o b e s ta te d in th e p o lic y th a t fa ilu r e b y e a c h
s u b s id ia r y to a d o p t th e ir o w n th a t is a p p lic ab le to th e m.
Th e r e fo r e , th is o n e a u to ma tic a lly a p p lies .

I w ill te ll y o u w h y I

s a y th a t C h a ir, it is b e c a u s e th e SC M p o lic y is th e G r o u p Po lic y a n d lik e
th e r e is a , w h e r e it ta lk s a b o u t a p p lic a b ility. It s a y s th is p o lic y a p p lies to
g r o u p SAA a n d u n le s s wh e r e it is s ta te d o th e r w ise .
20

So lik e I me a n in th a t th e n it s h o w s ok a y, th e r e is a c h a p ter th a t
ta lk s to SAAT a n d th e n lik e w h e r e SAAT lik e b e c a us e w he r e SAAT is th e
te c h n ic a l s id e o f SAA, it ta lk s a b o u t lik e th e p r o cu r e me n t p ro c es se s o f
SAAT. So , I a m s a y in g I d o n o t a g r e e w ith Mr C h a d i. It is h is v e r s io n a n d
I a m s ta tin g my v e r s io n .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Am I r ig h t to s a y y o u s a y th e r e a s o n w h y y o u d is p u te

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
w h a t h e s ay s is b ec a us e a s fa r a s y o u kno w th e r e is n o th in g in wr itin g
th a t c o n fir ms th a t.
MS MEM ELA :
p o lic y

lik e

Ye s , I a m s a y in g C ha ir s o if th e r e w a s s o me th in g in th a t
th e

SC M

p o licy

s a ys

o kay,

u n le s s

s ta te d

o th er w ise

a u to ma tic a lly if th e s u b s id iar y d oe s n o t ad o p t its o w n p o licy th is o n e
a u to ma tic a lly a p p lie s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y, y e s , a lr ig h t. Mis s H o fme y r ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So , w h e n th e p o lic y s a ys th is C o n flic t o f In te r e s t

Po lic y s h a ll b e a p p lica b le to SAA g r o u p d o e s th a t n o t me a n w h a t i t s a y s ?
10

L e t me g iv e y o u th e r e fe r e n ce . It is in D D 2 5 ( a ) .
MS ME MELA :

I d o n o t h a v e to g o th e r e C h a ir b u t I a m s a y in g y e s .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS M EMELA :

Ye s .

W h a t, p o lic ie s a r e s p e c ifics , fo r in s ta n c e lik e th is o n e is it

s a ys o u ts id e to b e a d o p te d b y su b s id ia r ie s , a n d th e n lik e I s a id o k a y, b u t
lik e th e r e is n o n e th a t is a d o p te d th a t I k n o w o f, th a t s h o u ld b e s ig n e d b y
th e b o a r d o f SAAT.
My u n d e r s ta nd in g is th a t S AAT is a fr e ig h t c o mp a n y fr o m SAA
w ith its o w n r e g is tr a tio n n u mb e r, w ith its o w n p o lic ie s a n d s tu ff, s o lik e I
me a n th is o n e s h o u ld a lso b e th e r e s ig n e d b y th e b o a r d a nd th e
20

a c c ou n tin g o ffic e r o f S AAT b e in g th e C EO .
C H A IR PER SO N:

So , y o u a r e s a y in g in th e a b s e nc e o f a r e s o lu tio n b y

th e b o a r d o f SAAT s a y in g w e a r e a d op tin g th is p o licy a n d in th e a b s en c e
o f s o me th in g in th e p o lic y itse lf, s a y in g tha t if S AAT d o e s n o t h a v e its
o w n p o licy th is p o lic y w ill a p p ly.

Yo u s ay in th e a b s e nc e o f th o s e two

th in g s , y o u d is p u te h is ev id e nc e .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS ME MELA :

Ye s , I d is p u te h is s ta te me n t a n d I e v e n g a v e a n e x a mp le

o f SM C h a ir a n d n o w I a m g iv in g y o u a n ex a mp le o f th e D O A. SAA fo r
in s ta n c e h as g o t its o w n D O A w h ic h is a lso r a n b y th e s a me Mr C h a d i’s
d e p a r tme n t. An d th e n lik e SAA h a s g o t its o w n D O A, th e n SAAT h a s g o t
its o w n s e p a ra te D O A th a t is s ig n e d b y th e b o a r d a n d C EO o f SAAT.
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
r e a d d oe s g o o n .

Mis s Me me la in fa i r n e ss to y o u th e c la u s e th a t I

It s a y s , it is C lau s e 1 .7 a t p a g e 4 3 9 o f An n e x ur e

D D 2 5( a ) . It s a y s :
10

“Th is C o n flic t o f In te r e s t Po lic y s h a ll b e a p plic a b le to
th e SAA g r o u p .”
It th e n r e a d s :
“Th e

p o lic y

s h a ll

th e n

be

p r e s e n te d

to

a ll

s u b s id ia r ies Ex c o fo r a d o p tio n .”
MS ME MELA :

Th a n k y o u .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d Mr C h a d i s ee ms to h a v e b e en c o n du c tin g

c o mp lia n ce a n d g o ve r n an c e a t SAA w ith a p o s itio n th a t s a y s u n les s th e r e
is a c on tr a ry p o licy a do p te d , th e G r o up Po lic y a pp lie s . I u n d er s ta n d y o ur
e v id e nc e to b e u n le s s th e r e is a s p e c ific a d o p tio n it w o u ld n o t a p p ly to
20

SAAT. Is th a t r ig h t?
MS ME MELA :

Th a t is r ig h t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So , w h a t c o n flic t o f in te r e s t p r o v is ion s d id a p p ly

to SA AT e mp lo y e e s fo r th e m to b e a b le to g iv e th e ir a n n u a l d e c la ra tio n s
o f in te r e s t?
MS M EMELA :

I d o n o t r e me mb e r a n y C o n flic t o f In te r e s t Po lic y C h a ir a t

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SAAT th a t is w r itte n a s y o u h a d r ea d c o rre c tly th e r e Mis s Ho fme y r th a t
th e d e p a r tme n t r isk a n d c o mp lia nc e like s ho u ld b e g o ing to s u bs id ia r ies
a n d p r e se n te d to Ex c o a n d s tu ff. I d o n o t r e me mb e r b e c au s e as I s a id
fir s t, I w a s th e m in u te ta k e r fo r Ex c o b e fo re I b e c a me a n Ex c o me mb e r.
So , I w o u ld r e me mb e r th is k in d o f d e c is io n b e in g ta k e n .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th a n k y o u .

Mis s Me me la I w o u ld lik e to th e n

c o n c lud e w ith y ou r e v id e n ce a n d in o rd e r to d o s o w e ha v e ha d e v ide n ce
o v e r fo u r d ay s , w e ll th r e e a n d a h a lf n o w [in te r v e n es ].
MS ME MELA :
10

Ye s Ma ' a m.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So w h a t I p r o p os e to d o is to id e n tify n in e

h ig h lig h tin g fe a tu r e s o f th e e v id en c e ov e r th e p a s t fo u r d a ys , a n d I w a n t
to g iv e y o u a n o p po r tu n ity to r es p o nd to th o s e b ec a us e it is a n e ffo r t to
r o u n d u p w ha t w e h a v e c ov e re d o v er th e p e rio d [in te r v e n e s ].
MS MEM ELA :

O k a y s o w e g o in g to h ig h ligh t, fin is h a n d th e n I r e s p o nd ?

[In te r v e n e s ].
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o , I w ill d o o n e - b y - o ne b e c a us e it is a lis t o f

n in e u n le ss y o u w ou ld lik e me to g iv e a ll n in e [in te r v e n e s ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , n o , o n e - b y - on e is mu c h mo r e c o n ve n ie n t. Be c a u s e

if y o u h a v e to r e s p o nd to n in e c a n y o u ima g in e ?
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

It is q u ite c h a lle n g in g in d e e d .

N o , I w a s n o t g o in g to , I t h o u g h t s h e w ill ju s t r o u n d u p

lik e r e a d e ve r y th ing a n d th e n I w o u ld r e s p on d in o n e g o .
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o , i t is mu c h mo r e c o n ve n ie n t if s h e ta k e s o n e - by - o n e

a n d th e n y o u r es p o n d th e n it is c le a r w h a t is b e in g p u t to y o u .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

In d e e d .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C H A IR PER SO N:

It is c le a r w h a t y o ur a n sw e r is a n d th e n s h e mo ve s to

th e n e x t o n e .
MS ME MELA :

O k a y.

C H A IR PER SO N:

An d it w ill mo v e q u ite q u i c k er w ith c r is p a ns w er s .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS MEM ELA :

Ye s .

W ith y e s - n o -y e s- n o . I a m h o p in g th e s ty le o f q u es tio n in g

w ill b e lik e th a t C h a ir a s w e ll.
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o – n o - n o th a t is fin e . Bu t r e me mb e r I w a n t c r is p

a n s we r s b u t if y o u fe e l s tro n g ly th a t y o u n ee d to e x p la in s o me th in g , I w ill
10

k e e p a n e ye o n th a t.
MS ME MELA :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So , w h a t I p u t to y o u Mis s Me me la is th a t th e

e v id e nc e o v er th e la s t fo u r d a y s h as s h ow n th e fo llo w in g :
Fir s t, th a t d e s p ite th e fa c t th e H e a d o f L in e Ma in te n a n c e ,
Mr Ma k a le n g a nd th e Ac tin g C EO a t th e time Mr Ph ir i, e s ta b lis h ed th e
b o o k v a lu e o f th e G PU ’s th a t w e r e to b e s o l d a n d c o mmu n ic a te d th a t b o o k
v a lu e to th e SA AT b o a r d w h e n it to o k th e d e c is io n to s e ll th e G PU ’s . Yo u
d id n o t c o ns id er th e b o ok va lu e o f th e G PU ’s w h en y ou n e go tia te d w ith
J M Av ia tio n .
20

C H A IR PER SO N:

An d y o u c a n s a y th a t is n o t tr u e .

I d id ta k e i t in to

a c c ou n t o r it is n o t tr u e o r it is tr u e I d id n o t ta k e it in to a c c o u n t a n d th e n
if y o u n e e d to e x p la in it [in te r v e n e s ].
MS ME MELA :

Th a t is n o t tr u e C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS M EMELA :

Th a t is n o t tr u e ?

J a th e y d id n o t e s ta b lis h a n y w h a t, b o o k v a lu e o th e r th a n

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
u s in w r itin g d ow n o n h is s u b mis s io n to th e b o a r d , a n d C h ay ile r a is ing
th a t h e w a s n o t h a p p y a n d ja s o .
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d in th e c o u r s e o f y o u r n eg o tia tio n s w ith

J M Av ia tio n a b o u t th e p r ic e a t w h ic h SAAT w o u ld s e ll th e G PU ’s y o u d id
n o t e s ta b lis h th e fa ir ma r k e t v a lu e o f th e G P U ’s ?
MS M EMELA :

Ye s , C h a ir b e c a us e lik e th e r e w a s n o te n d e r th a t w a s r a n .

Th e o n ly time p r o c u r e me n t e s ta b lis h es fa ir v a lu e is g o th r o u g h te n d e r s ,
yes.
10

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e th ir d is th a t y ou s u p po r te d th e SAAT b o a r d ’s

d e c is ion to a w a rd th e c o mpo n e n ts te n de r to A AR a n d J M Av ia tio n a s
ju s tifia b le a n d th a t w a s w h e n a t a time w h e n th e r e w e r e c a lls fr o m th e
SAA C h a ir p e r s on fo r SAAT to c a n c e l th e c o n tr a c t, is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS ME MELA :

C h a ir p le a s e .

C H A IR PER SO N:

N o w e ll, s h e s a y s is th a t c o r r e c t, a n d y o u r a n s w er

s h o u ld s ta r t w ith y es it is c o r r e c t o r n o it is n o t c o r r ec t.
MS ME MELA :

O k a y C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS M EMELA :
20

Th e n y o u c a n e x p la in if yo u n e e d to e x p la in .

O f c o u r s e b as e d o n th e b o a r d min u te s th a t s h e h a d r e a d

fo r me b u t I d o r e me mb e r th a t Mis s D u d u M y e n i w a s e x tr e me ly n o t h a p p y
a b o u t th e b o a r d d e c is io n a n d w h e n o n th e 1 5 J u n e w h e n th is w a s
d is c us s ed o n th e b o a r d me e tin g .
It w a s u s lik e n o w s ta n d in g u p fo r SAAT.

N o t w h o h a s ma d e

w h a t d e c is io n a nd w h o is a g a ins t w h a t a n d w h o d o es n o t s up p o r t. I s till
s ta n d b y my ve r s io n s ay in g w e we r e a ll s ho c k ed b y th a t d e c is ion b y th e

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
b o a r d th a t o k a y th e y ju s t ma d e th a t d e c is ion th e r e b u t lik e th e y h a d th e ir
o w n r e as o ns , ja I a m d o n e .
C H A IR PER SO N:

So , y o u w ill n o t s a y w h eth e r y o u s u p po r te d or d id n o t

s u p p or t [in te r v e n e s ].
MS ME MELA :

Ja

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS M EMELA :
10

Bu t y o u h a v e ma d e y ou r co mme n t.

O k a y.

Be c a u s e it g iv e s a c e r ta in , y e s I, b e c a u s e o f th a t, th o s e

b o a r d min u te s a n d wh a t lik e w a s d isc u ss ed th e r e in J u n e a n d a fte r th e
b o a r d ha d jus tifie d r e s po n d in g to Miss Du d u My e n i w hy th is w a s d o n e a n d
N a tio n a l Tr e as u ry, y e s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e fo u r th is th a t y o u fa ile d to d is c lo s e to

a n y o ne e ls e a t SAAT th a t J M Av ia tio n h a d b e e n c o mmu n ic a tin g w ith y o u
a n d s e n d in g th e ir b id p r o p o s a l a n d J V a g r e e me n t fiv e d a y s b e fo r e th e ir
b id w a s d u e to b e s u b mitte d fo r th e fin a l te n d e r. Is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS ME MELA :

It is c o r r e c t C h a ir ; I d id n o t d is c lo s e b ec a us e I d o n o t s it

in e v a lu a tio n te a m.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
20

An d y o u h a v e a c c ep te d , I th in k p r e v io u s ly in y o u r

e v id e nc e , th a t th a t c o mmu n ic a tio n a lo n e o u g h t to h a v e d is q u a lifie d th e m
fr o m th e b id , c o r r e c t?
MS MEME LA :

Th a t q u a lific a tio n th a t c o m mu n ic a tio n w ith th e e va lu a tio n

te a m, th e p e o p le , b e c a u s e lik e e v en th e d o c u me n t s ay s th is d oc u me n t,
a n d th e y a r e th e o n e s w h o k n o w th a t d o c u me n t.
s ittin g th e r e , it w o u ld h a v e d is qu a lifie d th e m.

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I s a id o k a y if I w a s

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

N o M is s Me me la , I r e c a ll y o u r e v id e nc e to b e ,

b u t y o u c an te ll me if y o u w a n t to r e tr ac t fr o m th a t p o s itio n . Yo u s a id y o u
w e r e n o t a w a re o f it a t th e time . Bu t I p u t it to y o u th a t i f y o u h a d b e e n
a w a r e o f it w h e th e r it w o u ld h av e b e e n in b r e a ch o f th e r e q u ir e me n ts o f
th e R FB fo r J M Av ia tio n to c o mmu n ic a te a t a ll w ith y o u [in te r v e n e s ].
MS ME MELA :

Oh Ok.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

Ye s . Ye s , C h a ir th a n k y o u .

C H A IR PER SO N:
10

An d I u n d e r s to o d yo u r a n sw e r to b e y e s .

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e fif th is th a t y o u a llo w e d a c o n tr a c t to b e

c o n c lud e d b e tw e en J M Av ia tio n a n d AAR w h ic h h a d va r io us d e tr ime n ta l
c la u s es in it to SAAT. Is th a t c o r r e c t?
MS ME MELA :

I a llo w e d ? Th a t is n o t tr u e C h a ir. Th e r e is a p e r so n w h o

is r e s p on s ib le fo r th a t, w h o le a d s th e n e g o tia tio n a n d s tu ff.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

An d th a t w a s Mis s Mb h e k i in y o u r v ie w ?

Ye s C h a ir.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

O r b e it th a t s h e w a s s u b o r d in a te to y o u a n d

r e p o r te d to y o u . C o r re c t?
MS M EMELA :
20

Sh e r e p o r te d to me b u t lik e y e s , s h e w a s le a d in g th e le g a l

a n d c o n tr ac ts ma n a g e men t s o th a t is h e r r o le , y e s . An d lik e o r o f c o u r s e
a lw a ys w h e n th e re a r e o th e r iss u e s th a t th e y a r e n o t h a p p y w ith fo r
in s ta n c e I w ill ma k e a n e x a mp le C ha ir q u ickly.
Th e fa c t th a t lik e s h e s a id s h e w a s n o t h a p p y w ith th e p e n a lty,
b e in g n o t lik e in th e c o n tr a c t [in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

J a I r e me mb e r y o u te s tifi e d a b o u t p e n a ltie s .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS M EMELA :

J a s o my u n d e r s ta n d in g th a t lik e I h a d a v e r y c lo s e

r e la tio n s h ip w ith my s ta ff a n d lik e s h e , th a t is th e o n e s o me th in g th a t s h e
w o u ld h a v e r a is ed w ith me a n d th e n lik e I w o u ld h a v e s u p po r te d h e r a n d
s a w ho w we c los e th a t g a p , b u t in s te a d lik e s h e co n tin u e d an d lik e may b e
th e c o n tr a c t w o u ld h av e b e e n re v iew e d a n d a me n d e d .
An d r e me mb e r lik e th er e w as lo ts o f o th e r n e g o tia tio n s a fte r th e
c o n tr ac t w a s s ig n e d s o it w o u ld h a v e b e en r e v ie w ed if s h e h a d r a is e d
th a t, ja .

10

C H A IR PER SO N:

Mis s Mb a n jw a h a s it fa lle n a w a y ?

MS MB A N J WA :

Slig h tly C h a ir, ju s t to c on fir m q u ic k ly, I ju s t w a n t to

k n ow, b e c a us e th e s ta te me n t is , th e c o n tra c t w a s de tr ime n ta l to SAAT.
Ar e th o s e d e tr ime n ta l a s p ec ts [in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS MB A N J WA:

Yo u w a n te d th e r e s p e c ts in w h ic h it w a s d e tr ime n ta l?
Ye s . Ye s . Th a n k y o u C h a ir

C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

It r e s u lte d in a BER r a te c o n tr ib u tio n o f

6 5 p e r c en t a s o p p o s e d to th e 7 0 p e r c e nt th a t w a s s tip u la te d in th e
r e q u es t fo r b id . Sh o u ld I g o a b i t s lo w e r ?
C H A IR PER SO N:
20

O h , o k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e r e w a s a BER r a te u ltima te ly c o n c lu d e d w h ic h

d id n o t fo llo w th e 7 0 p e r c e n t c o n tr ib u tio n re q u ir e d in th e R FB. Bu t th a t
w a s r e du c ed to 6 5 p e r c e n t.
MS ME MELA :

C a n I . ..[in te r v e n es ].

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

O h , d o y o u w a n t to r e s p on d h e r e?

O h y e s . O k a y.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
MS M EMELA :

Th e B ER r a te th a t w a s s ta te d th e r e th a t w a s e x a c tly w h a t

I h a d ma d e a n e xa mp le e a r lier o n th a t. Th a t is o n e th in g th a t if it is , w e
d o n o t h a v e a b a ck g ro u n d o f a ls o th e p u b lic o u t th e r e d o e s no t
u n d e rs ta n d th e b a c kg r o un d o f c o u rs e it w o u ld b e ta k e n a s s uc h .
Bu t th e B ER , my u n d e r s ta n d in g lik e it in v o lv e s th e r ep a ir s , w ha t
is s o me o f th e s p a r e s a re d a ma g e d a n d th e y h a ve to b e s e n t b a c k fo r
r e p a ir a n d th e r e a re c e r ta in d ay s th a t lik e me a n it n e e d s to ta k e fo r SAAT
to s e n d b ac k b u t so fa r w h ile I w as s till th e r e C h a ir is th a t th e fa c t th a t
w h e n I c a lle d th e me e tin g lik e a fte r I c o mp la in e d a b o u t th a t.
10

Th e r e w a s a r e p o r t th a t p r o v e d th a t a c tu a l ly it w a s fr o m S AAT
s id e th a t th e r e w a s e ve n th a t, e v e n th o s e c h a r ge s fr o m AAR s id e o f la te
s u b miss io n o f th e s p ar e s a nd a ll th a t lik e I me a n s o th e r e it is a b it
te c h n ic a l.
So , I th in k it w ill w o r k e v e n mu c h b e tte r if a te c h n ic ia n e x p la ins
b e tte r b u t I a m s a y in g it w a s fr o m SA AT s id e th a t w a s la ck in g s o th e y
w e r e s u p po s e d to a c tu a lly fo llow a ce r ta in pe r io d to s en d th e n lik e I me a n
th e n th e s p a r e g e ts re p a ir ed a n d c o mes b a c k bu t th e y w o u ld w a it fo r
s e v en ty tw o h o u r an d th e n u n til AAR r e p la ce d th a t s p a r e w ith a n e w on e
a n d th e y e n d u p c h a rg in g SAAT. So , th e p r o b le m n o w is fr o m o p er a tio n s

20

o r ma te r ia ls ma n a g e men t fa ile d to ma n a g e t h a t p a r t.
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e r e w as n o in clu s io n o f a p e n a lty c la us e in

fa v o u r o f SAAT.
MS ME MELA :

O h , o k a y. I th in k I h a v e a lr e a d y a n sw e re d th a t, C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

We ll th e , w h a t Mis s H o fme y r is c o n tin u ing to d o is to

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
s p e c ify th e r es p ec ts . [In te r v e n e s ].
MS ME MELA :

To s ta te .

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

in w h ic h th e c o n tr a c t w a s p r e ju d ic ia l to SAAT.

To SAAT. O k a y, C h a ir.

C H A IR PER SO N:

Ye s , y e s . Yo u h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t p e n a ltie s , b u t d o y o u

a c c ep t th a t th e a b s e nc e o f s uc h a p e na lty in fa v o u r o f SAAT w a s
p r e ju d ic ia l to SA AT.
MS MEM ELA :

I f th a t is th e c a s e o f c o u rs e lik e a fte r I h a ve s e en th a t

[in te r v e n e s ].
10

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS MEM ELA :

Ye s , o k a y.

It w a s a b it p r e ju d ic ia l b u t I th in k if it w a s r a is e d b y th e

p e r s on w ho w as ma n a g in g le g a l a n d c o n tra c ts th e co n tr ac t w o u ld ha v e
b e e n r e v iew e d b e fo r e w e a d d ed lik e I me a n th e lis ts o f a ir c r a fts o n th e
c o n tr ac t.
C H A IR PER SO N:

O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ye s , y o u w ill r e c a ll Mis s Mb h e k i’s c h a lle n ge w as

th a t s h e n e v er h a d a n o pp o r tu n ity to r ev iew it b e c a u se it w a s s u dd e n ly
s ig n e d o n th e 7 t h o f J u ly. D o y o u r e ca ll th a t?
MS M EMELA :
20

R e me mb e r Mis s H o fme y r th e c o n tr a c t is s till r u n n in g ,

C h a ir. I tr a v e lle d w ith Mis s Mb h e k i to L o n d o n to n e g o tia te w ith AAR lik e
in te r ms o f a d d itio n a l a ir c r a ft a n d o th e r th in g s in th e c o n tr a c t.

So my

u n d e rs ta n d in g is th a t lik e b e for e w e le ft So u th Afr ic a w ith Mr Mik e Ke n n y
a s w e ll s h e w o u ld h av e s a id o k ay y o u k now w h a t o k a y I th in k th is is a n
o p p o r tu n ity an d th e n te ll me a ls o th a t b os s a c tu a lly I n e ve r h ad th e s ig h t
o f th e c o n tr a c t b e fo r e it w a s s ig ne d b ec a u se , th a t w a s n e v e r r ep o r te d to

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
me y o u u n d e rs ta n d ?
So lik e I me a n w h e n we g o th e r e w e w ou ld h a v e th e n s a id o ka y
o th e r th a n b e ca u se I r e me mb e r b e for e w e fle w to L o n d o n w e d is cu ss e d
c e r ta in th in g s th a t w e h a v e to ma k e s u r e th a t a r e a d d e d in th e c o n tr a c t.
An d s h e w as th e r e be in g th e o n e w h o is ta lk in g o n th e le g a l fr a mew o rk s o
my u n d e r s ta n d ing is th a t lik e s h e s h o u ld h a v e p u s he d a ls o fo r th a t o r
ma y b e le t me a n d Mik e Ke n n y u n d e r s ta n d th a t o k a y th a t p e n a lty is n o t
th e r e th e r e fo r e it s ho u ld b e re v iew e d . So th a t a me n d me n t it w o u ld h a ve
lik e a d d e d th e r e th e p e n a lty.
10

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

D id y o u s e e fit to r e v iew th e c o n tra c t a t a n y

p o in t to c h e c k th a t it a d e q u a te ly p r o te c te d SAAT?
MS M EMELA :

C h a ir, I w o u ld h a v e to s a y in a d e q u a te to r e v ie w if th e

p e r s on w h o is ma n a g in g w h o is r e s p o ns ib le fo r ma n a g in g th e c o n tr a c t h a d
r a is e d c er ta in g a p s w ith in th e c o n tr a c t b e c a u se my u n d e r s ta n d ing a ls o
lik e I b e fo r e I b r o u g h t C o o k ie in I w a s h o ld in g h e r p o s itio n b e fo r e I jo in e d
p r o c ur e me n t.
So , my u n d e r s ta n d in g is th a t w h e n y o u ma n a g e a c o n tr ac t y o u
g o th r o u g h it a n d th e n r a is e c e r ta in g a ps th a t o k a y a c tu a lly th is is n o t to
th e b e n e fit to th e c o mp a n y th e r e fo r e lik e t o c lo s e th is g a p th is is w h a t I
20

n e e d to d o .
I a lw a y s s ay s o me times if th e r e is s o me s o rt o f u n h a p p in es s like
w ith in th e c o n tr a c t w ith in tw o p a r tie s th e r e is n o th in g th a t l ik e s to p s b o th
p a r tie s to s it d o w n a n d s a y o k a y h ey w e ll ma y b e it w a s d o n e in a r u s h o r
s o me th in g lik e th a t, le t u s s it a n d s e e i f w e c o u ld c lo s e th a t g a p . I d o n o t
r e me mb e r th a t b e in g r a is ed .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e r e w a s n o in c lu s io n o f a n e s c a p e c la u s e o r a

te r min a tio n c la u s e fo r SAAT to e x tr ic a te its e lf fr o m th e c o n tr a c t, w a s th a t
in y o u r v iew a p r e p to SAAT ’s p r e ju d ic e .
MS ME MELA :

Th a t i f it is tr u e C h a ir it is a l s o q u ite a n d [in te r v e n es ].

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS M EMELA :

Pr e ju d ic ia l

J a , e x a c tly lik e I me a n th a t is lik e my u n d e r s ta n d in g fr o m

th e le g a l p o in t o f v ie w a n d th e p e r s o n w h o ha d ma n a g e d c on tr a c ts b e fo re .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

An d th e o b lig a tio n to ma k e th e u p fr o n t d e p o s it

p a y me n t, d o y o u r e g ar d th a t a s b e in g p r e ju dic ia l to SA AT?
10

MS MEM ELA :

C h a ir, in th a t d a y, th a t fir s t d a y w he n w e s a t th e r e w he n I

a d mitte d th a t I w a s a c tu a lly s ittin g d u r in g th e n e g o tia tio n I r e me mb e r w e w e - w e fo u g h t to o th a n d n a il.

I w a s s ittin g th e r e w a tc h in g he r.

Su p p o r tin g h e r a s s h e wa s ne g o tia tin g o n be h a lf o f th e c o mp a ny a n d s h e
p u s h ed b a ck .
An d r e me mb e r AAR w e r e h av in g to s h o w th e w h o le te a m th a t it
is th e ir p o licy. Th e ir b o a r d w o u ld no t e v en a p p r ov e if th is if th is is n o t
d o n e a n d s tu ff lik e s o I a m s a y in g n o w fr o m S AAT’s s id e th a t w a s r e a lly
d e fe n d e d d u r ing th e n e g o tia tio n .
Th a t is w h y th e n th er e w as th a t k in d o f lik e I me a n th e
20

a g r e e me n t a t th e e n d th a t s a id o k a y ma y b e th e y c o u ld h a ve it s p r e a d o v er
s ix mo n th s b u t lik e I me a n th a t d id n o t h a p p e n .

Yo u h a v e e s ta b lis h e d

th a t.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e y d id n o t - it w a s n o t a p r o v is io n o f th e

te n d e r th a t th e y w o u ld b e e n title d to th a t u p fr o n t p a y me n t, w a s it?
MS MEMELA :

I t w a s n o t a p r o v is io n o f t h e te n d e r.

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It w a s n o t o n th e

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
te n d e r C h a ir.

I th in k th a t is th e r e a s o n w h y w e w e r e r e a lly s ce p tic a l

a b o u t it.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

Th e y ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

Ye s .

We ll , d o I s a y y e s o r n o C hair ?

C H A IR PER SO N:
10

Th e y w o n th a t b a r g a in .

Th e y w o n ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :

Bu t th e y w o n th a t b a r g a in , it s e e ms .

If – if - i f Mis s Mb h e k i d id n o t g e t w h a t s h e w an te d fo r

SAAT y o u s a y y es .
MS ME MELA :

O k a y y e s , I g u e s s lik e s h e did n o t g e t w h a t s h e w a n te d .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
d e tr ime n ta l.

I th in k I h a v e g iv e n th e r e s p e c ts in w h ic h it w a s

I w ill n o w mo v e to th e n e x t e le me n t to r o u n d u p th e

e v id e nc e . Mis s Me me la y o u h a v e a ls o fa ile d to a le r t [in te r v e n es ].
C H A IR PER SO N:

Oh.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

I a m s o r r y Mis s Me me la ?

A ls o , I th o u g h t th e s e w e r e n in e

C H A IR PER SO N:
20

I a m s o r r y is th e r e a n is s u e ?

N o , s h e is g o in g b a c k s h e h a d to p a u s e a t n in e

[In te r v e n e s ].
MS ME MELA :

O h , o k a y. As k ie s th e n .

C H A IR PER SO N:

D e a l w ith th e - a n d g iv e y o u th e r e s p ec ts in w h ic h s h e

s a ys th e c o n tr a c t [In te r v e n es ].
MS ME MELA :

O h o k a y.

C H A IR PER SO N:

Th e c o n tr a c t w a s p r e jud icia l to S AAT [in te r v e n e s ].

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MS ME MELA :

O h , I u n d e r s ta n d ok a y.

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

N o w s h e is g o in g b ac k to [in te r v e n e s ].

To h e r lis t.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

Mig h t b e th e fo u r th [in te r v e n es ].

I a m s o r r y.

C H A IR PER SO N:

O r th e f ifth .

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
MS ME MELA :
10

I th in k I mig h t b e o n th e s a me [in te r v e n e s ].

C h a ir, c a n I ta k e th e w a te r ?

C H A IR PER SO N:
MS ME MELA :

To th e lis t .

So me b o d y w ill b r in g y o u w a te r.

O k a y.

C H A IR PER SO N:

W ill s o me b o d y b r in g h er w a te r p le a se ?

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
C H A IR PER SO N:

Th e n e x t is th a t y o u fa ile d [in te r v e n e s ].

O h , o k a y. O k a y.

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Mis s Me me la th e n e x t is th a t y o u fa ile d to a le r t

fin a n c e to th e fa c t th a t th e c o n tr a c t w ith J M Av ia tio n a n d A AR d id n o t in
fa c t r e q u ir e a n u p fr o n t c as h p a y men t to b e ma d e .
MS ME MELA :

I …

C H A IR PER SO N:
20

MS ME MELA :

D o y o u w a n t th e q u e s tio n to b e r e p e a te d ?

N o I a m h e a r in g it is ju s t I w a s n o t a w a re th a t I h a d lik e

th a t th e r e w a s th a t e x p e c ta tio n fr o m me to a le r t fin a n c e w h e n fin a n c e w a s
s ittin g d u r in g n e g o tia tio n a n d C FO s its a t E XC O a n d u n d e r s ta n d ing is th a t
h e k n e w ex a c tly wh a t w a s h a p pe n in g .
A D V K ATE HO FMEYR :

D o y o u re me mbe r th e e ma il c o mmu n ic a tio n s

w h e r e th e fin an c e pe rs o n sa ys ; I n e e d to a sk Ms Me me la ab o u t th is . An d

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th e n y o u r e sp o n d w ith ; a c c or d in g to th e c o ntr a c t.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s . Th a t is w h a t I h a d e x p la in e d Ms H o fme yr
y e s te rd a y th a t- a nd y o u ac tu a lly ev e n wen t b a c k to th a t p r o v is io n a nd
s a id ma y b e th a t w a s th e p r o v is io n th a t I w a s ta lk in g a b o u t. I t is u n d e r
s o me te c h n ic a l th in g .

It ta lk s a b o u t th r e e mo n th s c o n tr a c t.

I s a id w e

w e r e s u p p os e d to ha v e a cc o r d ing to th e n eg o tia tio n s a n d s tu ff. So , it is
n o t lik e th e y p a id th is d e p o s it u p fr o n t b e c a u s e I h a d r e s p o n d e d to th a t
e ma il. Th e r e w e re lo ts o f p r oc es s es C ha ir th a t w e r e fo llo w e d b e fo r e th e
p a y me n t w a s ma de .
10

Ev e n D e v Ary a th e C FO , th e fo r me r C FO e v e n e x p la in e d th a t h e h a d to
p u s h h ar d . It is h is e ma il th a t I h a d r e a d . H e h a d to p us h h a rd fo r th in g s
to b e d o n e a n d o f c o u r s e it is n o t p a id fr o m S AAT. As y o u s a w it h a d to
g o to th e G r o u p C FO o f SAA , g o th r o u g h th e Tr e as u ry o f S AA w h o h a s to
lo o k a t c e r ta in th in g s .

So , I a m n o t s u r e it w a s n o t my - it w a s n o t

e x p ec te d o f me to b e th e o n e w h o s a y, o k a y p a y. O r ma y b e a s y o u ma y b e
th a t p a y me n t w a s ma d e b e c au s e I w r o te th at e ma il. I d o n o t th in k s o .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u w e r e th e o n l y p e r s o n w h o a d v is e d o n th e

c o n tr ac t a n d w h a t it p r o v id e d .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ah - h a , I w a s n o t th e p e r s o n w h o ad v ise d o n
20

th e c o n tr a c t a n d w h a t it p r o v ide d .

C h a ir b e c a us e o f my e xp e r ie nc e in

te r ms o f a t c o n tr a c ts ma n a g e me n t o n c e th e c o n tr a c t is in p la c e o r ma y b e
fin a n c e h a s a n o b lig a tio n to fa mil ia r is e t h e ms e lve s o f th e p r o v is io ns
e s p ec ia lly if th e y ar e la zy - I kn o w w h e n y o u a r e n o t a law y er n o t r e a lly g o
th r o u g h th e w h o le c o n tra c t o r w h a tev e r. J us t g o th r o u g h th e p a y me n t p a r t
o r ma y b e w h er ev e r it ta lk s a b o u t th e d e p o s it a n d w h a te v e r a n d kn o w th a t

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
th is is w h a t is e x p e c te d fr o m th e m.
Fo r me I th in k Ms H o fme y r sh e s aw th o s e ema ils w ith me w r itin g a n d s tu ff
a n d I d id s a y th e r e a s o n w h y I p la y e d th a t r o le w a s b e ca u se my fe a r w a s
th a t i f w e d o n o t p a y w h a te v e r w e a r e e x p ec te d to p a y a s p e r th e
c o n tr ac t, th e r e w ill b e an AO G ( Air c r a ft on th e G r o u nd ) . An d o n c e th e
a ir c ra ft is o n th e g r o u n d b e c au s e o f th e la c k o f s p ar e s th e fir s t p e rs o n
w h o g e ts b la med is me .

An d th a t is o n e th in g th a t I a lw a y s ta k e

a c c ou n ta b ility o f y o u s e e w h e r e it c o me s to th e w h a t th e p r o v is io n o f
s p a r es b e c au s e th a t is th e d u ty o f p r o c ur e me n t to p r o v id e s p a r es to
10

o p e r a tio n to r u n .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

D o yo u ac c e p t th a t y o u w er e re s po n s ib le for

c o n tr ac t ma n a g e me n t a t SA AT?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I d o n o t a c c e p t. C h a ir I s a id b e fo r e Ms Ku k i
Mb e k i c a me in , I h e ld h e r p o s itio n b e fo r e I jo in e d p r o c u r e men t s o I w a s
r e s p on s ib le fo r ma n a g in g c o n tr ac ts a n d I w a s fu lly in v o lv e d in th e r e . So
... ( in te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: A t th e time w h e n y o u o c c u p ie d th e p o s itio n th a t s h e w a s
o c c up y in g .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th e p o s itio n o f Ms Mb e k i, y e s .
20

C H A IR PER SO N: Mm.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA :

An d th e n I d o n o t k n o w if y o u r e me mbe r, I

h ig h lig h te d o n Fr id a y, Ms H o fme y r I d o n o t k n o w if y o u r e me mb e r a b o u t
th e s tr u c tu r e th a t- th e c o n tr a c t ma n a g e men t a t th a t time w h e n I w a s in
th a t p o s itio n it w a s r e p o r tin g to C o mme rc ia l. So , I r e p o r te d th e th e n G M
C o mme r c ia l Mr Ar s o n Ma lo la Ph ir i. An d th e n d u r in g th e r es tr u c tu r in g it

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
w a s a g re e d to mo v e to , ja .
C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t w e d o n o t- w e mig h t n o t n e e d to g o th e r e - th a t fa r.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. Ye s C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u r a n s w e r is ... ( in te r v e n e s )
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o .
C H A IR PER SO N: As H O D SC M ... ( in te r v e ne s )
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I d o n o t ma n a g e c o n tr ac ts .
C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t w a s n o t p a r t o f y o u r r e s p o ns ib ility.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s .
10

C H A IR PER SO N: J a , it h a d b e e n p a r t w h en y o u w e re o cc u p y in g a n o th e r
p o s itio n .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ms Me me la d o y o u r e me mb e r a n is su e b e in g

r a is e d b y Mr L io n e l L e R o u x in Ma r c h o f 2 0 1 7 a r o u n d th e AAR J M Av ia tio n
c o n tr ac t in s o me o f th e a r tic les th a t h a d b e e n c irc u la tin g in th e me d ia
a b o u t it?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. O r d o w e g o to th a t .. . ( in te r v e n e s)
20

C H A IR PER SO N: Sh e s a y s d o y ou r e me mb er.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I ju s t w a n t to a s k d o y o u r e me mb e r it?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA :

O k ay I d o r e me mb e r.

I r e me mb e r th e re a r e

lo ts o f c o mmu n ic a tio n s .
C H A IR PER SO N: J a .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Bu t I d o r e me mb e r I .. . ( in te r v e n e s )

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C H A IR PER SO N: J a . Th e n s h e w ill c o me .. . ( in te r v e n es )
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a .
C H A IR PER SO N: W ith a q u e s tio n if th e r e is a q u e s tio n .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th e r e is ju s t a fo llo w u p C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Be c a u s e Ms Me mela h a s b e e n v er y e mp h a tic in
h e r e v ide n ce a t th e mo me n t a b o u t n o t b e in g r e s po n s ib le for c o n tr ac ts
ma n a g e me n t a n d I w o u ld lik e to th e n ta k e h e r to th is e ma il c o mmu n ic a tio n
if I ma y.
10

C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I h a d n o t n ec e ss a r ily th o u g h t it w o u ld n ec e ss a ry
b u t it s e e ms to b e . Yo u w ill fin d it in D D 2 5 B a t p a g e 7 5 7 .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Yo u s e e in th e s e c o n d h a lf o f th a t p a g e th e r e is
a n e ma il fr o m Mr L io n e l L e R o u x .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

In w h ic h h e r a is e s th e s e is s u e s a bo u t th e AAR

c o n tr ac t.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm.
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I p r o p o s e to p a r a ph r a s e u n les s Ms Me me la y o u
th in k it is n e c e s s ar y fo r u s to r e a d to w h o le th in g in to th e r e c o r d .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Th e is s u e th a t Mr L io n e l w a s r a is in g ...

( in te r v en e s)
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ple a s e r e a d it.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : O h , y o u d o w a n t it r e a d .
H i c o lle a g u es , w ith r e g a r d to o u r c on v er s a tio n in th e me e tin g o n w h e th e r
flig h t te c h n ic a l c o u ld jo in th e SAAT c o n t r a c t I h a v e a tta c h e d a v iew
a r tic le s w h ic h w as p u b lis he d o n th is c o n tr act.
Th e fir s t a r tic le s ta te s th a t it is a fiv e- y e ar c o n tr ac t b e tw e e n SAAT a n d
AAR C o r p o r a tio n in jo in t v e n tu r e w ith J M Av ia tio n a s it- a n d it w o u ld c o s t
1 2 5 millio n U S d o lla r s .
Th e s e co n d a tta c h me n t is a r e q ue s t fo r a n in te r im in te r d ic t b y Air Fr a n c e
a g a in s t th is ma in te n a n ce c o n tr ac t.
10

Th e H ig h C o u r t r e jec te d th is

a p p lic a tio n b u t it d o e s in d ic a te th a t A AR jv J M Av ia tio n h a s s u b mitte d a
fin a l b id p r ic e o f U S d o lla r s 8 2 4 7 6 0 6 2 d o lla r s . I t b e g s th e q u e s tio n w h y
th e b ig in c r e a se b e tw e e n th e c o n tr ac t a n d te n d e r p r ic e s .
An d th e n h e g o e s o n to s a y ;
Th e la s t tw o a t ta c h me n ts d e a l w ith th e H AW KS in v e s tig a tio n in to D e p u ty
Fin a n c e Min is te r Mc e b is i J o n as a n d h is a lle g e d in v o lv ed in a n MO U
b e tw e e n SAAT a n d A AR w h ic h w a s s ig n ed in 2 0 1 5 .

Ple a s e d e fe r th e

r e s e ar ch to h a v e a c le a r e r u n d er s ta n d ing a ro u n d th e c o n s id er a tio n to jo in
th is c o mp o n e n t ma in te n a nc e c o n tr ac t.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a .
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : H e h a d c ir cu la te d th a t to p e o p le o th e r th a n y o u .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d th e n w h a t h a ppe n e d is a b o ve th a t is Bo n g an i
Ts h ab a la la r e sp o n ds - C h a ir I a m n o w in th e mid d le o f th e p a g e to s a y ;
Sp e a k to Ma r io ... ( in te r v e n e s)
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : D u k w a n a .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : D u k w an a o r Mik e Ken n y, L io n e l.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d th e n Ma r io D u k w a na r e s p o nd s- y o u h a v e to
g o b a ck a p a ge to 7 5 6 . Th is is s till o n th e 1 4 t h o f Ma r c h . An d w h a t Ma r io
D u kw a n a s ay s is ; H i Bo n g a n i, I a m u n a b le t o p o s itiv e ly a ns w er
y o u r e ma il a s I d o n o t h a v e fu ll k n o w le d ge o f th e AAR c o n tr a c t o r th e
c u r re n t s ta tu s o n a n y le g a l ma tte r s .
I h a v e c o p ied Ad v o c a te N on ts a sa a n d Ku k i o n th is e ma il. I a m s u r e th e y
w ill b e a b le to c la r ify y o u r ma tte r a s s e t o u t in y o u r e ma il b e lo w.
10

R e g a rd s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d th e n y o u r e s p on d a t th e to p o f p a g e 7 5 6 .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm- h mm.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d y o u s a y ; D e ar Lio n e l, I a m v e r y s ur p r is e d
b y y o u r e ma il.

D o e s th is me a n y o u h a v e fo r g o tte n a lr e a d y w h o to

c o mmu n ic a te w ith r e ga r d in g a ny c o n tra cts th a t h a v e g o n e th r o u g h
p r o c ur e me n t?

Yo u w o r k ed fo r SAAT y o u s h o u ld k n ow e x ac tly w h ic h

d e p a r tme n t is r u n n in g th es e p r oc e ss es .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm- h mm.
20

A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th e n y o u g o in to a d e ta il .. . ( in te r v e n e s)
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a , y o u d o n o t h a v e to g o th e r e .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ye s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a , y o u c a n a s k y o u r q u es tio n .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

So w h a t I a m s tr u g g lin g w ith is w h y y o u w o u ld

r e s p on d to a c o lle a g u e o n th e b a s is th a t h e s h o u ld h a v e b e e n

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c o mmu n ic a tin g

w ith

you

a nd

y o ur

de p a r tme n t

about

c on tr a c ts

ma n a g e me n t a n d th e te r ms o f th e c o n tr ac t th a t h a s g o ne th r o u g h a te n d e r
p r o c es s if in y o u r p r ev io u s ev id e nc e y o u we r e s a y in g y o u w er e n o t- y o u
d id n o t p la y th a t r o le .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : C h a ir ?
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I a m s u r e y ou h e a r d Ms H o fme y r r e a d in g a n
e ma il fo r m Mr Ma r io D u k w a n a .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
10

MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : W h e r e h e s a id ; I a m u n a b le to p o s itiv e ly
w a r a w a r a an d h e s a id I h a ve c o p ie d Ad v o c a te N o n tsa s a an d Ku k i Mb ek i
o n th is e ma il.
An d th e n th a t fir s t p a r a g r a p h it s a y s ; I a m v e ry s u r p r is e d b y y o u r e ma il.
D o e s th is me a n y ou h a v e fo r go tte n a lr e a d y w h o to c o mmu n ic a te w ith ?
L io n e l u s e d to w o r k fo r SAAT a n d h e u n d e rs ta n d s th a t c o n tr a c ts
a r e ma n a g e d b y le g a l a n d c o n tr a c ts p e rs on .

Ex a c tly s o th a t is e x a c tly

w h a t I w a s s ay in g th a t h e s h o u ld h a ve ju s t w h a t c o mmu n ic a te d w ith th e
le g a l a n d c o n tr ac t p e r so n w h o ma n a ge s th is c o n tr ac ts s o th a t h e c a n g e t
a p r o p e r id e a o f w h a t h e w a s ta lk e d a b o u t i n s te a d o f g o in g o n G o o g le a n d
20

ta lk a b o u t a r o o me r fr o m th e me d ia in s te a d o f th e fa c ts th a t a r e th e r e .
Ms Ku k i Mb e k i w o u ld h a v e g iv e n h im th e fa c ts . Be c a u s e a lr e a dy h e w a s
ta lk in g a b o u t a n in cr e as e a n d w h e n I a sk e d in my e ma il; p le a s e h ig h lig h t
w h e r e th e in cr e a se is .

H e c o u ld n o t b e c au s e th e r e w er e n o fa c ts .

He

w a s ju s t r e ly in g o n th e a r tic le o n th e me d ia .
C H A IR PER SO N: We ll is y o u r - is th e p os itio n th a t Ms Mb e k i w a s th e o n e

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r e s p on s ib le fo r ma n a g ing c o n tr ac ts ?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , le g a l a n d c o n tr a c ts .
C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t s h e w a s r e p o r tin g to yo u .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : To me , y e s .
C H A IR PER SO N:

I ta k e it th a t th a t w h a t- th a t th e e ffe c t o f th a t is th a t

y o u r p or tfo lio , y o u r d e p a r tme n t, y o u r u n it.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Wa s re s po n s ib le fo r co n tra c t ma n a g e me n t. W h o w ith in
th e
10

u n it,

who

w ith in

th e

d e p a r tme n t

in te r n a lly

was

g iv e n

th a t

r e s p on s ib ility is s o me th in g e ls e b u t y o u r u n it, y o u r d e p a r tme n t w a s
r e s p on s ib le fo r ma n a g ing c o n tr ac ts ? Is my u n d e rs ta n d in g c or r ec t?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , b u t my u n d e r s ta n d in g o f Ms H o fme y r is
th a t I ma n a g e d th e c o n tr a c t, g o th r o u g h th e m a n d h a v e th a t c o n tr ac ts
r e g is te re d th e r e for e I a m th e o n e w h o w a s man a g in g c o n tr ac ts ...
( in te r v en e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: N o , y o u s e e y o u we r e th e H e a d o f th e D e p a r tme n t.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u h a v e to ta k e r e s p o ns ib ility fo r th e p e r fo r ma n c e o f
d u tie s o f th o s e wh o r ep o r t to y o u .

20

Is it no t?

If s o me th in g g o e s wr o n g

w ith in y o u r d e p ar tme n t th e C EO is e n title d to c a ll y o u a n d n o t Ms Mb e k i
a n d s a y, w hy a r e y ou r s u bo r d in a te n o t d o in g th e ir jo b ?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: Is it n o t?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: So , fr o m th a t p o in t o f v iew is it n o t c or r ec t th a t it w o u ld

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
b e c o rr ec t to s a y y o u we r e in c h ar g e o f th e d e p a r tme n t th a t w a s
r e s p on s ib le fo r c on tr a c t ma n a g e men t.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA :

Ye s , I w a s in c h a r ge fo r th e u n it th a t w a s

r e s p on s ib le fo r c on tr a c ts ma n ag e me n t ... ( in te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : An d o th e r p o r tfo l io s .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Ms Me me la in y o u r in te r a c tio n s w ith fin a n c e

a b o u t th e p a y me n t o f th e d e p os it. Yo u in d ic a te d to th e m th a t th e c o n tr a c t
10

r e q u ir ed a c as h d e po s it to b e p a id a nd th a t w a s in c irc u ms ta nc e s w h er e
th e c o n tr a c t d id n o t r e q u ir e it. D o y o u h a v e a c o mme n t o n th a t?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y r e p e a t th a t Ms H o fme y r.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : W h e n y o u w er e in te r a c tin g w ith fin a n c e .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Ab o u t th e p a y me n t o f th e d e p o s it.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm- h mm.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :

Yo u in d ic a te d to fin a n c e th a t th e c o n tr ac t

r e q u ir ed th a t th e p a y me n t b e ma de .

An d I p u t it to y o u , th a t w a s in

c ir c u ms ta n c es w h en th e c o n tr ac t a c tu a lly d id n o t r e q u ir e a p a y men t to b e
20

ma d e .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O k a y. I s till s ta n d b y my v er s ion C h a ir th a t
h o w I w r o te th a t e ma il me a n t th a t w e w e r e e x p e c t o r w e w e r e su p p os e d
to - I e v e n r e a d y e s ter d a y, w e w e re s u p p os e d to h a v e p a id u p fr o n t a n d
s tu ff.

An d th e n I e v e n me n tio n e d th e th r e e mo n th s d e p o s it w h ic h la te r

w a s p ic k ed u p in th e c o n tr ac t b y Ms H o fme y r a nd s tu ff.

Page 97 of 105

So , I a m n o t

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
a g r e e in g to th a t. I a m s till b y my v e r s io n .
C H A IR PER SO N:

L e t me ma ke s ur e I u n de r s ta n d w h a t y ou a r e ta lk in g

a b o u t. R e me mb e r y e s te rd a y we ta lk e d a lo t a b o u t th e d e p o s it?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th r e e mo n th s , ja
C H A IR PER SO N:
u ltima te ly

you

An d I th o u g h t th a t w h e n w e h a d th a t d is c u s s io n
a c c e p te d ,

I

th o u g h t

and

you

mu s t

te ll

me

if

I

mis u n d e rs to o d . I th o u g h t y o u a c c e p te d th a t w h e r e th e c o n tr a c t r e q u ir e d
p a y me n t o f a d e p o s it it r e q u ir e d n o th in g mo r e th a n th e p r o v is io n o f th a t
c r e d it le tte r o r le tte r o f c r e d it g u a r a n te ed b y b a n k ac c ep ta b le to AAR .
10

D id I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c or r ec tly th a t y o u a c c e p te d th a t th a t is w h a t
p a y me n t o f d e p o s it me a n t, th e p r o v is io n o f th a t le tte r ?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I a c c e p te d w h a t th e c la u s e th a t w a s r e a d y b y
Ms H o fme y r ... ( in te r v e n e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: H o fme y r.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Fr o m th e c o n tr a c t.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Bu t I s a id th e in t e r p r e ta tio n o f my e ma il to s a y
fin a n c e w as ex p ec te d b e ca u se n o w h o w it is p u t it is a s if I in s tr u c te d
fin a n c e to p a y c as h o r s o me th in g so th a t is h o w ... ( in te r v e n e s )

20

C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Sh e is p u t tin g it .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Bu t I a m s a y in g y e s te rd a y I a c ce p te d h o w it
w a s w r itte n e x p la in in g th e d e p o s it. An d th e n s h e w e n t o n a n d r e a d so me
w h e n I a s k e d if w e c o u ld g o b a c k to th e c o n tr a c t. An d th e r e w a s in d e e d

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
w h e r e it w as me n tio n e d th e th r ee mo n th s wh ic h c on fir me d w h a t I h a d sa id
in my e ma il.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA :

W h e r e I s a id i t w a s s u p p os e d to h a v e b e e n

th r e e mo n th s p a id in a d v a nc e o r so me th in g .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a .
C H A IR PER SO N:

N o w ju s t to c la r ify b e c au s e I w a s n o t s u r e a t s o me

s ta g e y e s te rd a y if I u n d e r s to o d w h a t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t. O th e r th a n
10

th e p a y me n t o f a d e p o s it h as c o n te mp la ted in th e c la u s e th a t w e re a d
y e s te rd a y th a t ta lk e d a b o u t th e le tte r o f c r e d it.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a .
C H A IR PER SO N: O th e r th a n th e p a y me n t o f d e p o s it.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm- h mm.
C H A IR PER SO N: Pr o v id ed fo r th e r e . Was th e r e a ny p ay me n t o f c a s h th a t
th e c o n tr a c t r e q u ir e d to b e ma d e b y SA AT b e fo r e a n y th in g - b e fo r e th e
c o n tr ac t c o u ld - b e fo r e p er fo r ma nc e b y AAR ?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA :

No

C h a ir o th e r

th a n

th e

d e po s it ...

( in te r v en e s)
20

C H A IR PER SO N: Th e r e w a s n o .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o t.
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y a lr ig h t.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : J a .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: I t is ju s t th a t th e r e w a s r e fe r e nc e to s e c u r ity a t s o me

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
s ta g e ... ( in te r v e n e s )
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: I d o n o t k n o w w he th e r it w a s se c ur ity d e p os it a n d I w a s
n o t s u r e w h e th er ... ( in te r v e n e s )
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I t w a s s e c u r ity de p o s it.
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e a g r e e me n t w h e th e r th a t w a s a n o th e r ty p e o f d e p o s it
o r it w a s th e s a me d e p o s it.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I t w a s th e s a me d e p o s it C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N:
10

O h o k ay.

N o th a t is fin e .

So , y o u r e v id e n ce is y ou

a c c ep t th a t in te r ms o f th e c o n tr a c t th e r e w a s n o a d v a n c e p a y me n t o f
c a s h th a t w a s r eq u ir ed fr o m SAAT?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , in te r ms o f th e c la u s e in th e c o n tr ac t ...
( in te r v en e s)
C H A IR PER SO N: In te r ms o f th e c la u s e .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s , it h a d s ta te d d o w n h o w it s h o u ld b e d o ne .
C H A IR PER SO N: Alr ig h t.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : An d Ms Me me la a l l o f th o s e a s p e c t o f y o u r r o le
th a t I h a v e h ig h lig h te d to o k p la c e a t a time a fte r J M Av ia tio n p a id th e 1 .2

20

millio n r a n d to w a r ds th e p u rc h as e o f y o ur Be d fo r d v ie w ho u s e .

Is th a t

c o r re c t?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o C h a ir.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : W h ic h o n e d id n o t h a p p e n a fte r ?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ok a y th e y h av e h a p p e n ed a fte r b u t I a m ju s t
s a y in g n o to th e lin k .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I w ill g e t to th e lin k in a mo me n t.
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y ja .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : I ju s t w a n t to . .. ( in t e r v e ne s)
C H A IR PER SO N: Th e q u e s tio n w a s ju s t fa c tu a l in te r ms o f ti me .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : O h o k a y. Alr ig h t .
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u a c c e p t th a t i t w a s a fte r in te r ms o f time .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I t w a s a fte r, y e s .
C H A IR PER SO N: J a .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR :
10

Th e lin k is r e a lly th e fo llo w in g Ms Me me la .

I

w a n t to p u t it to y o u th a t a s a r e su lt o f a cc e p tin g th a t mo n e ta ry b e n e fit
fr o m J M Av ia tio n y o u w er e imp r o p er ly in flue n c e d to fa v o ur th e m in th e ir
d e a lin g s w ith SAAT. D o y o u w a n t to r e s p o nd to th a t?
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA :

I w a s imp r o p e r ly in th e p o s itio n to in flu e n c e

th e m?
C H A IR PER SO N: W h a t Ms H o fme y r is p u ttin g to y o u is th a t b e c a u se J M
Av ia tio n h a d ma d e a p a y me n t ... ( in te r v e n es)
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : H a d b o u g h t a la n d , y e s .
C H A IR PER SO N: J a , h a d ma d e th is p a y me nt.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mm- h mm.
20

C H A IR PER SO N:

Th is h a d th e re s u lt th a t y o u ov e r lo ok e d th in gs in th e

p e r fo r ma nc e o f y o u r w or k th a t y o u s h o u ld no t h a v e o v e r loo k e d a nd SAAT
w a s p r e ju d ic ed . Ms H o fme y r is th a t c o r r e c t?
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In d e e d C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : N o C h a ir.

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t is w h a t s h e is p u ttin g .
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : No C ha ir. An d we w ill e x p la in th a t e v e n b e tte r
o n o u r r e - ex a min a tio n .
C H A IR PER SO N: J a . N o , n o , y o u c a n e x p lain n o w.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : So r r y ?
C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u c a n e x p la in n o w.
MS N O N TSA SA MEM ELA : N o th e r e is n o w a y w h e r e I h a d in flu e n c e d th e
d e c is ion to a w a r d th e c o n tr a c t to AAR a n d J M. An d th e r e is n o w h y w h e r e
I h a d in flu e n c e d th e d e c is io n b y a n y d e p artme n t a t S AAT to p a y AAR o r
10

J M.

So , I h a d s a id w h e n I w a s - y es te r da y w h e n I w a s ta lk in g th a t it

s e e ms th a t a ll o f a s u d d e n th a t I a m o u ts id e SA AT e v e r y b o dy is n o w fr e e
to p o in t th in g s a t N o n ts a s a b e c a us e s he is n o lo n g e r th e r e .
Th e y - it g o e s a s fa r a s g uy s r e a lly d e n y in g th e fa c t th a t th e y
a tte n d e d me e tin g s b e c a us e th e y k n ow th e re is n o c a me r a th a t w ill p r o v e
th a t th e y a tte n d e d me e tin g .

Ex e c u tiv e me mb e r s th a t a r e sa y in g , ok a y

N o n ts as a , I a s k ed fo r th e co n tr a c t fr o m Non ts a s a an d N on ts a sa s a id I d o
n o t h a v e a c o p y I a m p r o te c tin g y o u . An d th e n th e r e is Mr Sc h a lk w h o
h a s n e ve r s e en me fr o m a b a r o f s o a p ... ( in te r v e n es )
C H A IR PER SO N: Th a t is Mr H u ma n .
20

MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Mr H u ma n w h o ha v e n ev e r s e en me fr o m a b ar
o f s o a p w h o is c o mfo r ta b ly e n o u gh to c o me a n d s it h e r e , ta lk a b o u t me
b e c a us e - s o y o u e n d u p n o t u n d e r s ta n d ing w h a t k in d o f r o le th e n d id I
p la y a t SA AT.
board.

I t is a s if I w a s e v e n a c tua lly fa r mo r e s e n io r th a n th e

If I d id n o t k n o w be tte r C h a ir, I w ill s a y may b e un k no w in g to

my s e lf I w a s a Min is te r jus t g iv in g - g oo i in in s tr u c tio n s an d s tu ff.

Page 102 of 105

I

12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
r e p o r te d to p e op le . I w a s a n H O D a nd I p la y e d my ro le to th e b e s t o f my
a b ility.
Th a t is w h y I sa id e ar lie r o n if I h a d sa id h e r e to a ns w er th a t, o k a y my
d e p a r tme n t b as e d o n th e a u d ito r ge n e ra l, th e s e a r e th e fin d ing s .
Be c a u s e y o u d id no t e n s ur e th a t y o u r de pa r tme n t r a n a cc o r d in g to th e
la w s th a t a r e g u id in g th e pu b lic pr o cu r e me n t.

I w ill u n d e r s ta n d .

Bu t

w h e r e I h a v e to a n s w e r o n b e h a lf o f th e A c tin g C EO lik e it w a s , I h a v e
th a t p o w e r to in flu e n ce th e Ac tio n C EO to in flu e n c e th e p e rs o n w h o
o w n e d th e G PU s w h o h a d a r e s p o n s ib ility in te r ms o f th e PFMA to p r o te c t
10

w h a t h e th o u g h t w a s n o t r ig h t to g e t s o ld . An d y o u u n d e r s ta n d th e lis t
g o e s o n s o n o I d id n o t h a v e a n y in flu e nc e .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u C h a ir, th o s e a r e o ur q u e s tio ns .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Ye s o k a y. Th a n k y ou .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: We ar e a t 1 2 :2 7 s o it d o es n o t lo o k to me th a t w e h av e
e n o u g h time to d o a n y th in g me a n in g fu l in t e r ms o f r e - e x a min a tio n b e fo r e
w e h a ve to a d jo u r n be c a us e o f my c o mmitme n ts . So , it s e e ms to me th a t
w h a t w e s h o u ld d o is a d jou r n a n d a d a te w o u ld th e n b e a r r an g e d a n d- I

20

d o n o t w a n t so me b o dy to s ay wh e n I s a id a r r a ng e d , I me a n t it mu s t b e
agreed.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : N o .
C H A IR PER SO N: We w ill d e te r min e th e d a t e a n d if Ms Mb a n jw a h a s a n y
p r o b le m s he w ill ma k e r e pr e s en ta tio n s bu t w e w ill d e te r min e d a te s .
Be c a u s e w e kn o w if y o u s ay y o u w ill a g r e e d a te s w ith p r ac titio n e r s , y ou

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
n e v e r g e t a ny w h er e s o .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In d e e d . In d e e d C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N:

So , w e w ill- a n o th e r d a t e w ill b e a r r a n g e d w h e n Ms

Me me la w ill c o me b a c k a n d th e n Ms Mb a n jw a w ill g e t a c h a n c e to r e e x a min e . So , I th in k th a t th a t is w h a t w e w ill d o . We w ill h a v e to s to p
here.
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In d e e d .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ms Mb a n jw a , y o u u n d er s tan d ?
MS L MB A N J WA: Ye s C h a ir, th a n k y ou I a cc e p t it w ill n o t b e a s a g re e d it
10

w ill b e a s a r r a ng e d .
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS L MB A N J WA :

Th e re is ju s t o n e req u e s t C h a ir w e h av e if it is

p o s s ib le . I h a v e a lr e a d y r a ise d it w ith Ms H o fme y r.
C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s .
MS L MB A N J WA : An d s h e d id s a y th a t th a t d o c u me n t is n o t a v a ila b le .
Bu t fr o m o u r ta lk s w ith Ms H o fmey r sh e h as s a id th a t th e r e is a n a ffid a v it
th a t is b e in g p r e p ar e d fo r Mr ( in d is tin c t O sin i) th a t is th e Ac tin g C EO o f
SAAT. C h a ir w ill r e me mb e r th a t h is r o le is th a t p iv o ta l in s o fa r a s th e
p r ic in g o f th e G PU s is c o nc e rn e d . So , w h a t w e a r e th e n r e q u es tin g fr o m
20

Ms H o fme y r is if i t c a n c a me - if it c a n c o m e to p a s s th a t b e fo r e w e c o me
b a c k h er e th a t a ffid a v it is fin a lis e d b e c a u s e s h e s a id it is b e in g c o mp ile d .
C a n w e th e n p le a s e h a v e s ig h t o f it b e c a us e it w ill g r e a tly a s s is t in o u r
r e - ex a min a tio n ?
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y s he - y o u h av e r a is e d th e is s u e w ith h e r.
MS L MB A N J WA : Ye s , I h a v e .

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12 FEBRUARY 2020 – DAY 212
C H A IR PER SO N: An d s h e h e a rs y o u .
MS L MB A N J WA : Th a n k y o u .
C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y, th a n k y o u .
MS L MB A N J WA : Th a n k y o u Ch a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ms Me me la , y o u u n d e r s ta n d w h a t I s a id th a t w e w ill

a d jo u r n ... ( in te r v e n e s)
MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : Ye s .
C H A IR PER SO N: An d th e n a r r a n g e me n ts w ill b e ma d e a n d y o u w ill c o me
back.
10

MS N O N TSA SA MEMELA : I u n d e r s ta n d C ha ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: O k ay a lr ig h t. Th a n k yo u v e ry mu c h to ev e ry b o dy. We
w ill a d jo u r n . O n Mo n d a y w e w ill s ta r t a t 1 0 :0 0 .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : C e r ta in ly C h a ir.
C H A IR PER SO N: J a a n d w e c o n tin u e w ith the a v ia tio n w itn e s se s .
A D V K ATE H O FMEYR : In d e e d .
C H A IR PER SO N:

Ja.

O k a y a lr ig h t.

So , w e w ill a d jo u rn fo r th e d a y.

To mo r r o w w e a r e n o t g o in g to b e s it tin g a n d Fr id a y. Bu t w e w ill r e s u me
o n Mo n d a y. We a d jo u r n .
R EG ISTR A R : All r is e .
20

IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN S TO 1 7 FEB R U ARY 2 0 2 0

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