C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

11 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 6 1

20

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
P R O C E E D I N G S C O M M E N C E O N 11 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M s N o r m a n , g o o d m o r n in g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G o o d m o r n in g M r C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u y e s w e a r e – C h a ir – r e a d y
C h a ir.

C h a ir I a m n o t s u r e w h e t h e r C h a i r w o u l d li k e t o e n t e r t a i n th e

s u b m is s io n s o n th e v id e o s n o w b e f o r e w e s t a r t th is m o r n in g b e c a u s e M r
H l a u d i s t il l w a n ts t o p e r s is t w i t h th a t r e q u e s t. U n f o r t u n a t e ly h e c o u l d
n o t r e s o l v e i t.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s m a y b e w e s h o u l d d e a l w i t h th e m n o w b e f o r e w e
c o n ti n u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h h is e v id e n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n I l e t h i m t h e n c o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : C h a ir w e b e l ie v e i t is i m p o r ta n t t h a t l ik e w e
in ti m a t e d y e s te r d a y b e f o r e y o u th a t t h e s e v id e o s o u g h t t o b e p la y e d to
a s s is t i n t h e e v i d e n c e g a t h e r i n g b e f o r e t h is c o m m i s s io n .

As you are

r ig h tl y a w a r e i s t h a t Mr H la u d i M o t s o e n e n g i s h e r e a s a n i n v it e d
w i t n e s s to th is c o m m i s s i o n a n d s e c o n d ly a ls o t h e r e h a d b e e n o t h e r

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e i m p lic a t e d h i m t h e i r t e s ti m o n ie s .

S o in o r d e r to

e n s u r e th a t h is te s t i m o n y d o e s n o t b e c o m e a s s a i le d b y m i s t r u t h s a n d
m is - c o n je c t u r e s a n d e v id e n c e t h a t is n o t a l ig n e d w i t h th e o b j e c ts a n d
p u r p o s e o f t h i s c o m m i s s i o n I b e li e v e it is i m p e r a ti v e t h a t v i d e o
e v i d e n c e b e a d m i t t e d a n d th is is a ls o in li n e w i th t h e C o m m i s s io n s A c t
w h ic h is S e c ti o n 3 o f t h e A c t . I d o n o t w a n t t o g o a n d – t h e a v e n u e o f
h a v i n g t o a d d u c e c a s e l a w b e fo r e y o u C h a ir s u ff ic e t o s a y th a t I t h i n k i t
is i m p o r t a n t th a t th e v id e o s b e p l a y e d a n d th e y a r e n o t v e r y l o n g , th e y
a r e s h o r t v id e o s a n d r e m e m b e r o n e o f t h e …
10

A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e r e is o n e t h a t M s N o r m a n s a i d is a b o u t
a n h o u r i n d u r a t i o n i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : N o th e o n e th a t is a n h o u r d u r a ti o n w e – I
s p o k e t o M s N o r m a n y e s t e r d a y a n d w e a g r e e th a t t h a t o n e w e a r e n o t
g o i n g t o p la y b u t t h e r e a r e t h e s h o r te r o n e s w h ic h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : W h i c h w i ll n o t t a k e m u c h o f t h e t i m e o f t h e
c o m m i s s io n i f th o s e a r e p la y e d . B e c a u s e I b e l i e v e i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t
they be played and…
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m a n y – h o w m a n y o f th e m a r e th e r e ?

20

A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I t is a b o u t t h r e e o f th e m I t h i n k . T h r e e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a l t o g e t h e r w o u l d t a k e a b o u t h o w m u c h ti m e ?
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

A l t o g e t h e r I t h i n k t h e y w i ll t a k e g iv e a n d

t a k e 2 5 m in u t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : C h a ir.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta lk to m e a b o u t w h a t e a c h o n e o f t h e m i s a b o u t ?
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

O k a y p r i m a r i l y r e m e m b e r y e s te r d a y t h e r e

w a s a n is s u e a b o u t t h e l e t te r o f M a r i e S w a n e p o e l a b o u t t h e is s u e s o f
w h a t s h e a d d u c e d i n th a t l e t t e r p e r t a i n in g t o t h e m a tr ic c e r ti fi c a t e o f Mr
H l a u d i M o ts o e n e n g . A n d i n o r d e r to c o r r o b o r a t e h i s i s s u e s th a t in d e e d
h e h a s a l w a y s b e e n tr u th f u l a n d a l w a y s b e e n m i n d f u l o f t h e f a c t t h a t h e
d o e s n o t h a v e a m a tr i c c e r ti f ic a te .

They are video recordings of

m e e ti n g s , g a th e r in g s a t t h e S A B C w h e r e p e o p le a r e a d d r e s s e d b y e v e n
o n e o f t h e fo r m e r G r o u p E x e c u t iv e s o f th e H R S t a k e h o l d e r th a t is M r
10

K e o b u k il e M o s w e u a c k n o w le d g i n g i n p u b l ic th a t Mr M o t s o e n e n g d o e s
n o t h a v e m a tr ic a n d t h a t c o r r o b o r a t e s t h e s e is s u e s s o t h a t t h a t is a l l
w h a t w e a r e t r y i n g to d o is t h a t w e a r e tr y i n g t o n a il t h e s a i l t o th e
mast.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I n e n s u r i n g th a t e n o u g h e v id e n c e i s b e f o r e
t h is c o m m is s i o n b e c a u s e i f w e d o n o t d o t h a t C h a ir w e w il l n o t b e d o i n g
t h is c o m m i s s io n e n o u g h j u s t ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . T h a t i s o n e o f th e e v i d e n c e .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a t is o n e o f t h e – y e s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s d e a l w i th t h a t o n e . As I – a s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e
p ic t u r e th a t h a s e m e r g e d a s fa r a s t h e is s u e o f m a tr ic c e r t if ic a te –
m a tr ic is c o n c e r n e d i t is c o m m o n c a u s e t h a t Mr M o ts o e n e n g d i d n o t a t
a n y t i m e p a s s m a tr i c . S o t h a t is o n e .
2 . Fr o m w h a t h e h a s s a id a n d fr o m th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e f r o m s o m e o f
t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t w e h a v e s e e n i n c l u d i n g t h e l e t te r s i g n e d b y M s

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
S w a n e p o e l b u t I t h in k t h e r e is a n o t h e r o n e th a t I s a w la s t n ig h t w h ic h I
t h i n k w a s n o t m e n ti o n e d h e r e .

M s S w a n e p o e l ’s l e t t e r a n d t h e le t t e r

t h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t w h ic h I d o n o t th i n k w a s r e f e r r e d t o y e s t e r d a y
m a k e i t c le a r t h a t a c c o r d i n g t o th e a u th o r s o f t h o s e l e t t e r s M r
M o ts o e n e n g h a d m a d e i t c l e a r t h a t h e d i d n o t h a v e m a tr i c . T h e n t h e r e
is t h e – th e r e is a n o t h e r le t t e r t h a t w a s r e fe r r e d to y e s t e r d a y t h a t w a s
w r i t t e n b y s o m e b o d y I fo r g e t t h e n a m e w h i c h a ls o – w h ic h a ls o s e e m e d
t o b e c o n s is t e n t w i t h th a t s t o r y.

N o w t h a t is n o t i n d is p u t e .

As I

u n d e r s t a n d t h e a ll e g a t io n t h a t h e l ie d a b o u t h is m a tr ic a s I u n d e r s t a n d
10

it t h e o n l y b a s is th a t h a s b e e n a d v a n c e d f o r th a t o r a t le a s t fr o m w h a t I
h a v e h e a r d s o fa r. I d o n o t k n o w i f a n y t h i n g e l s e w i ll e m e r g e l a t e r is
w h a t h e w r o t e i n t h e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r e m p l o y m e n t fo r m n a m e l y w h e r e i t
s a y s h i g h e s t s t a n d a r d p a s s e d t h e n h e w r o te S t a n d a r d Te n .

And as I

u n d e r s t a n d i t t h a t is t h e b a s i s a l s o o n w h ic h t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r ’s
fi n d i n g s s e e m s t o b e b a s e d .

I m a y b e m is t a k e n .

I t m a y b e it i s n o t

e v e r y t h i n g . B u t t h a t s e e ms t o b e t h e p o s it io n . N o w if t h e r e a s o n th e
b a s is f o r s a y i n g h e li e d is w h a t h e s a i d i n t h a t f o r m a n y v i d e o o f w h a t
w a s s a i d in a s u b s e q u e n t m e e t i n g d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o m e w o u ld h e l p
m u c h b e c a u s e w h a t w e h a v e is h e h a s c o n c e d e d t h a t w r i t in g th a t h e
20

h a d p a s s e d S t a n d a r d Te n t h e r e w a s n o t tr u e . B u t h e s a y s h e d i d i t o n
t h e a d v ic e o f M s S w a n e p o e l a n d h e s a y s l o o k i n g b a c k h e s h o u l d n o t
h a v e a c c e p t e d t h a t a d v ic e . A n d w e h e a r d a ll h i s e v i d e n c e a r o u n d t h a t .
S o t o t h e e x t e n t th a t t h e v i d e o w il l s h o w m e w h a t p e o p le m a y h a v e
d is c u s s e d m a n y y e a r s in s o m e m e e t in g m a n y y e a r s a f te r th e d a t e o f
that form I do not think would help much.

Page 5 of 177

B e c a u s e h e a c c e p ts a n d

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
c e r t a i n l y I a c c e p t t h a t i t w a s n o t tr u e t o s a y h e h a d p a s s e d S t a n d a r d
Te n .

B u t h e s i m p ly s a y s w h e n y o u l o o k a t th e f a c t th a t I w r o t e

S t a n d a r d Te n , I p a s s e d S t a n d a r d Te n d o n o t lo o k a t t h a t i n is o la t io n .
H e s a y s l o o k a t th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s a n d I a m s a y in g I w a s f o l lo w i n g Ms
S w a n e p o e l ’s a d v ic e . S o t h a t is m y i n c li n a ti o n a b o u t t h e – th a t v id e o . I
do not know if you want to say anything?
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

C h a ir h a v e a b i t o f d i ff ic u l t y in ta k i n g t o

g r a s p w h i ls t I r e s p e c t y o u r v ie w s o n t h e s e is s u e s b u t r e m e m b e r a t th e
e n d o f t h e d a y M r M o t s o e n e n g h is c h a r a c t e r a n d r e p u ta t io n a n d d i g n i ty
10

a n d in t e g r i t y h a s b e e n a s s a i le d n o t o n l y b e f o r e t h is c o m m is s i o n i t h a s
b e e n a s s a i le d in t h e P u b lic P r o te c t o r ’s R e p o r t . I t h a s b e e n a s s a il e d i n
t h e P a r li a m e n ta r y A d - h o c C o m m i t te e R e p o r ts . I t h a s b e e n a s s a il e d b y
m e d i a p e d d l in g l i e s a b o u t t h is m a t r ic is s u e C h a i r a n d I b e li e v e …
CHAIRPERSON: But remember …
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : W h i ls t th is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y, I a m s o r r y.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Ye s o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m i n t e r r u p ti n g y o u . I a m s o r r y. B u t r e m e m b e r t h a t
e v e n M r M o ts o e n e n g a t l e a s t b e fo r e m e h e is n o t s a y i n g t h a t w r it i n g i n

20

t h a t fo r m t h a t h e h a d p a s s e d S t a n d a r d Te n w a s t h e tr u t h . E v e n h e is
n o t s a y i n g t h a t . S o a l l h e is s a y in g i s I f o l lo w e d c e r t a i n a d v i c e a n d t h a t
h a p p e n e d u n d e r c e r t a i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s a n d p e o p le s h o u l d n o t j u s t l o o k
a t t h a t o n ly.

N o w h e is s a y in g – h e h a s s a i d t h a t y e s t e r d a y h e r e i n

p u b lic , e v e r y b o d y i s lis t e n i n g i n c l u d in g t h e m e d ia . T h e y a r e w a tc h i n g ,
t h e y h a v e h e a r d i t a n d d o c u m e n ts h a v e b e e n r e f e r r e d t o w h ic h r e fl e c t

Page 6 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h a t a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e fr o m w i th i n t h e S A B C s a y n o , n o , n o Mr
M o ts o e n e n g n e v e r c o n c e a l e d th e f a c t th a t h e d i d n o t h a v e m a tr ic . S o
t h a t h a s b e e n v e n t il a te d . S o m e o f t h e l e t t e r s h a v e b e e n r e a d o u t h e r e .
S o – s o m a k e – y o u c a n m a k e y o u r s u b m i s s i o n s b u t I a m m a k in g t h e s e
r e m a r k s s o t h a t a s y o u m a k e y o u r s u b m i s s i o n s y o u c a n k n o w w h a t is
g o i n g o n i n m y m i n d a n d a d d r e s s i t p e r t in e n tly.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

O k a y.

C h a ir j u s t l a s t ly s t il l p e r t a i n i n g t o

t h e is s u e o f t h e m a t r ic . I b e li e v e l ik e I s a i d th e – b e c a u s e th e v id e o s
t h e y a r e n o t l o n g o r u n le s s i f – I a m o f t h e v ie w t h a t i f y o u fe e l th a t
10

t h e y a r e g o in g to t a k e u p th e ti m e o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h ic h I
u n d e r s t a n d b u t if t h e y c a n b e r e c e iv e d a s e v i d e n c e a n d t h e n e v e n w h e n
y o u a s t h e C h a i r r e t ir e t o m a k e y o u r f in d i n g s y o u a r e a b le t o r e lo o k a t
t h o s e v i d e o s a n d b e a b le t o c o m e u p w i th y o u r o w n c o n c l u s io n . I f t h a t
t h e n c a n b e p a r t o f a l s o o u r w a y o f a s s i s t i n g t h e c o m m i s s i o n p e r t a i n in g
t o t h e e v i d e n c e , th e v id e o e v i d e n c e i n t h a t r e g a r d .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e w h a t w e s h o u ld d o – m a y b e w e s h o u l d n o t

m a k e a n y d e c is i o n a b o u t w h a t s h o u ld h a p p e n t o t h e m a b o u t th e m n o w.
M a y b e I s h o u l d h e a r t h e e v id e n c e m a y b e w h e n I h a v e h a d e v e n a ll t h e
e v i d e n c e fr o m e v e r y b o d y i f t h e n I c a n a s s e s s t h e s i t u a t io n .
20

And if I

t h i n k t h a t t h e y w o u l d a d d v a lu e th e n m a y b e I c o u l d t h e n s a y l e t u s – l e t
t h e m b e s h o w n . S o m a y b e i f i t is f i n e w i t h y o u m a y b e l e t u s n o t d e a l
w i t h th a t m a t te r n o w.

L e t u s w a i t u n t il a l l t h e e v i d e n c e h a s b e e n l e d

a n d t h e n w e t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . B e c a u s e a s I s p e a k t o y o u i t d o e s n o t
a p p e a r to m e a n d o f c o u r s e I h a v e n o t h a d o th e r w i t n e s s e s w h o w il l s ti ll
c o m e b u t i t d o e s n o t a p p e a r t o m e t h a t a n y t h in g i s e m e r g i n g t h a t

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
s u g g e s t s t h a t Mr M o t s o e n e n g w a s g o i n g a r o u n d s a y in g h e h a s g o t
m a tr ic . Yo u k n o w. C e r t a in ly h e s a y s I n e v e r w e n t a r o u n d s a y i n g I h a v e
m a tr ic a n d th e r e a r e c e r t a i n p e o p l e w h o – w h o h a v e w r i t te n l e t te r s
w h ic h s e e m s to c o r r o b o r a te t h a t a lr e a d y. A n d m a y b e n o b o d y i s g o i n g
t o d is p u t e th a t e v i d e n c e w h ic h h e h a s g i v e n y o u k n o w.

I never went

a r o u n d s a y in g I h a v e m a tr ic . O n t h e c o n t r a r y I w a s o p e n f r o m t h e s ta r t
w h e n I w a s a p p r o a c h e d b y S A B C a n d I s a i d I d o n o t h a v e m a t r ic a n d
t h e o n ly t h in g is w h e t h e r w r it i n g i n t h a t f o r m t h a t h e h a d p a s s e d
S t a n d a r d Te n w h e n o n e h a s r e g a r d t o a l l o f t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s i s
10

w h e t h e r i t c h a n g e s t h e p ic t u r e o r n o t .

So maybe – maybe we should

n o t d e c i d e – m a y b e y o u s h o u ld c o n s i d e r h o l d i n g th e a p p l ic a ti o n b a c k i n
r e g a r d t o t h a t v i d e o a n d a s s e s s t h e s i t u a t i o n la t e r. W h a t d o y o u t h in k ?
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I a g r e e w i t h y o u r a p p r o a c h it i s c o n s o n a n t
w i t h w h a t I h a v e a ls o – I h a v e b e e n i n d i s c u s s i o n w it h w i t n e s s . B u t I
ju s t w a n t e d to j u s t a n a d d i ti o n a l is s u e C h a ir is o n th e is s u e o f p u r g i n g
o f s t a ff. B e c a u s e r e m e m b e r o n e o f th e a l le g a ti o n s i s th a t M r H l a u d i
M o ts o e n e n g w a s p u r g in g th e s t a ff .

In o th e r w o r d s t h e r e w a s s o m e

d e r is o r y a c t s u p o n h i m t h a t e n d e d u p i n t h e S A B C l o s i n g m o n e y a s a
r e s u l t o f t h e s o c a l l e d p u r g i n g o f s t a ff.
20

And one of the videos also

w o u ld b e a b l e to la y t o r e s t th a t a s p e r s i o n . S o – b u t lik e I s a i d I a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I a m m i n d f u l o f y o u r v i e w a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : W e c a n p a r k t h e a p p l ic a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: We can park – ja.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : F o r th e v i d e o s t o b e e x a m i n e d o r v i e w e d f o r
n o w u n t il …
C H A I R P E R S O N : L a t e r.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : A t a l a t e r s t a g e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u h a v e s e e n t h e v i d e o s y o u a r e i n a b e tt e r

p o s i ti o n t h a n I a m b u t c e r t a i n l y in r e g a r d t o th e f ir s t o n e t h o s e a r e m y
p r e l i mi n a r y t h o u g h t s a n d – b u t i t m a y b e th a t w h e n y o u l o o k a t th o s e
t h o u g h ts m a y b e t h e y a p p ly t o a ll t h r e e b u t b e c a u s e I h a v e n o t s e e n
t h e m I c a n n o t s a y u n ti l y o u t e l l m e t h is o n e i s – t h e s e c o n d o n e is
10

a b o u t t h is , t h e t h ir d o n e i s a b o u t t h a t . S o – s o – s o d i d y o u t h i n k t h o s e
v ie w s m i g h t a p p l y t o a l l t h r e e ?

T h e p r e li m i n a r y r e m a r k s t h a t I h a v e

made.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Ye s i t d o e s , it d o e s .
CHAIRPERSON: They do yes.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : It d o e s d e f in i t e ly w i ll a s s i s t in th e i n te r e s t
o f J u s tic e J a C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y n o t h a t is a lr i g h t . S o I th in k th e n w e – w e
I t h i n k w e a g r e e d th a t le t u s p a r k t h e m a n d th e n y o u c a n r e v ie w – y o u
c a n r e n e w t h e a p p l ic a t i o n a t a la t e r s t a g e w h e n w e h a v e m a y b e a f u l l
20

p ic t u r e .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : O k a y t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . M r M o ts o e n e n g y e s t e r d a y w e

Page 9 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
d e a lt w i t h t h r e e p o li c i e s a t l e a s t t h a t g o t c h a n g e d d u r i n g y o u r t i m e
w h ic h w e c a n – w e c o v e r e d . B u t w h a t I w o u ld li k e t o k n o w fr o m y o u .
A r e y o u a w a r e o f T h e P o li c y A n d R e g u l a t o r y A ff a ir s D e p a r t m e n t w it h in
the SABC?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I am aware?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Of that – of the – of a department called
P o lic y a n d R e g u la t o r y A ff a ir s D e p a r t m e n t?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I a m a w a r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . W h a t d o e s th a t d e p a r t m e n t d o ?
10

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOT SOENENG: M aybe through you Chair I just
w a n t to c l a r i fy o n e o r t w o is s u e s C h a i r v e r y s h o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I f y o u a l l o w m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

C h a ir I t h i n k I a m h e r e n o t to

d e f e n d m y s e l f . I a m h e r e t o t e l l y o u th e tr u th . W h e t h e r w r o n g o r r i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

I a m n o t h e r e to c o m e a n d

defend.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

Because the media the way

t h e y a r e r e p o r t in g i s s u e s i t s e e m s a s I a m h e r e t o d e fe n d my s e l f .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

Yo u a r e h e r e C h a i r p e r s o n t o

h e a r t h e tr u th .

Page 10 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u r fi n d i n g s w i ll c o m e w h e t h e r
I w a s w r o n g o r r ig h t t h a t is y o u w h o w il l d o th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o I ju s t w a n t to d e a l w i th t h is
is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: That I am concerned.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

When media report that I am

h e r e t o d e fe n d my s e l f . I a m n o t d e f e n d i n g m y s e l f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG:

I a m ju s t te ll i n g th e tr u t h t h e

w a y I u n d e r s t a n d i t [ i n d is ti n c t ] C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

And I am not blaming anyone

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d o th e r p o i n t C h a ir is t h e o n e
20

of the

is s u e

that

I want to

deal with

e s p e c ia ll y

about

media

C h a ir p e r s o n . I t h i n k t h e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A b o u t?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Media Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: yes.
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k th e i r r o l e is t o d i s c r e d i t

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
m e e v e n n o w. B e c a u s e y e s t e r d a y I s p o k e a b o u t m e le c tu r i n g a t W I T S
b u s i n e s s s c h o o l. I t is tr u e C h a ir p e r s o n . I h a v e th e d o c u m e n t s . I w il l
p r o d u c e t h a t d o c u m e n t s . I w a s i n v i t e d a n d i t d o e s n o t m e a n th a t w h e n
I a m s a y in g I w a s l e c t u r i n g I w a s e m p l o y e d b y W I T S .

Even in my

a ffi d a v i t I a m a b l e to s a y s o c i e ty – I m e a n i t i s n o r m a l C h a ir p e r s o n b u t
t h e y t w is t w h a t I s a i d in th is c o m m is s i o n C h a ir p e r s o n .

I j u s t w a n t to

v e r i fy t h o s e is s u e s b e c a u s e o f t h e t w e e t C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t c a m e f r o m
s o m e o n e fr o m W I T S B u s i n e s s S c h o o l .

Th a t t w e e t i t is w r o n g

C h a ir p e r s o n . I h a v e b e e n i n v i t e d m o r e t h a n t h r e e ti m e s I th i n k a t W I T S
10

B u s i n e s s Sc h o o l t o l e c t u r e .

T h e r e is a v id e o t h a t d e m o n s t r a t e s th a t .

Ye s te r d a y C h a ir p e r s o n a f t e r th a t tw e e t s o m e o n e a n s w e r e d t h a t t w e e t
a n d p l a y a v i d e o w h e r e t h e S A B C it s e l f p l a y th a t v i d e o w h e r e I w a s
le c t u r in g a t W I T S . Th e y c o v e r e d t h a t s t o r y. It i s t h e r e f o r e v e r y b o d y t o
s e e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

S o t h a t i s w h y I a m s a y in g

C h a ir p e r s o n th e m e d i a th e w a y t h e y d o t h i n g s i t is w r o n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
20

B e c a u s e f o r t h e m i t s e e ms a s

t h e y a r e a n g e ls , w e a r e v e r y b a d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u k n o w t h a t i s w h e r e I h a v e
p r o b le m C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e w e a r e h u m a n b e i n g s .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o it i s v e r y i m p o r ta n t t h a t th e m e d i a s h o u l d g i v e a

b a l a n c e d – g iv e b a l a n c e d n e w s a n d – a n d I – b u t I a m – I a m c o n f id e n t

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h a t e v e n t h e c l a r if ic a ti o n t h a t y o u a r e g iv in g o r t h e e l a b o r a ti o n w h e r e
y o u s a y w h a t w a s s a id th a t c a m e fr o m W I T S B u s i n e s s S c h o o l w a s n o t
c o r r e c t a n d t h a t y o u a c tu a l ly h a v e m a t e r i a l a n d y o u s a y y o u w e r e n o t
in v i te d j u s t o n c e y o u s a y i t w a s t h r e e ti m e s a n d y o u s a y a c t u a ll y S A B C
e v e n h a v e o r s o m e b o d y h a s e v e n a v i d e o . S o t h e y h o p e f u lly t h e y w il l –
y o u k n o w r e p o r t o n t h a t a s w e ll .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

L a s t ly

C h a ir p e r s o n j u s t t o c l o s e t h e i s s u e o f v is u a ls . I n m y v i e w C h a ir p e r s o n
t h e j o u r n a lis t s t h e y a r g u e a b o u t p u b l ic i n t e r e s t t h a t w h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g
10

is in t h e p u b lic i n te r e s t . I h a v e a d i ffe r e n t v ie w b u t b y g u i d e d b y t h e
a c t i ts e l f i t c a n n o t b e b u r n i n g s c h o o l , b u r n i n g c li n i c s i t is i n t h e p u b l ic
in t e r e s t . M y v ie w i s d i ffe r e n t i t c a n n o t b e i n t h e p u b l ic i n t e r e s t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . N o M r M o ts e o n e n g o b v i o u s l y n o b o d y w o u ld s a y
b u r n in g s c h o o l is i n th e p u b lic i n te r e s t . B u t I t h i n k w h a t y o u m e a n i s
w h a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t is w h e t h e r r e p o r t in g o n th e b u r n i n g o f
s c h o o l s o r s h o w i n g t h e v is u a l s o f th e b u r n i n g o f t h e s c h o o l .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir I – n o C h a ir p e r s o n I
agree with you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: But …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d i s ti n g u is h j a .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t th e y – f o r m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

I n t h e ir o w n mi n d s – in th e ir

o w n v i e w b y s h o w i n g t h e s e v is u a ls is in t h e p u b l ic in t e r e s t .

Page 13 of 177

T h a t is

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
w h a t th e y a r g u e h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h e s h o w i n g o f t h e v i s u a ls j a .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s t h e y a r e s a y i n g i t is in t h e
p u b lic i n t e r e s t. I a m s a y i n g i t is n o t in th e p u b li c in t e r e s t b e c a u s e i t i s
a ls o b e i n g id e n ti fi e d b y t h e a c t . I t is n o t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I n t h e p u b lic in t e r e s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I j u s t w a n t to c la r i fy th a t is s u e
10

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
o f S A B C o n e o f m a n d a t e is t o e d u c a te .

E s p e c i a lly y o u l o o k – t h e r o l e
H o w d o y o u e d u c a t e p e o p le

e n c o u r a g i n g th e m t o b u r n s c h o o ls o r c l i n i c s C h a i r p e r s o n ? T h a t i s th a t
in s h o r t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o I a m – I h a v e a s tr o n g s u s p ic io n t h a t M s

N o r m a n w il l b e g o i n g th e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

To a s k y o u s o m e q u e s ti o n s o n y o u r v i e w s i n t h a t

regard.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
T h a n k y o u M r M o ts o e n e n g I a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n o f t h e – w h a t d o e s th e
– w h a t i s t h e r o le o f t h a t P o lic y a n d R e g u la t o r y A ff a ir s D e p a r t m e n t
w i t h i n th e S A B C ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

T h e ir r o l e C h a ir p e r s o n is to

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
d e a l w it h r e g u la t io n s w i t h i n S A B C i n c l u d i n g w o r k i n g t o g e t h e r w i th
I C A S A . E v e n o u r p r o p o s a l o n th e p o li c ie s a n d s o o n d u r i n g t h e
c o n s u l t a ti o n t h e y w ill b e p a r t o f t h a t t e a m a n d t h e y w i ll t a k e t h e S A B C
v ie w s o r o p i n i o n s o n t h e m a t t e r a n d c o n t r ib u t e .

S o th e y m o n i t o r t h e

r e g u la t io n s w it h in t h e S A B C .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s .

S o i n o t h e r w o r d s a n y p o l ic y t h a t

a n y o n e w i th in t h e S A B C p r o p o s e s m u s t g o th r o u g h t h a t d e p a r t m e n t
w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t w i ll t h e n ta k e i t t h r o u g h t o I C A S A ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
10

Ye s C h a ir.

N o r m a l ly w h a t w e

d o C h a ir p e r s o n a s I s a i d y e s t e r d a y w e h a v e s u m m i t s a t t h e S A B C
w h e r e w e w i ll c o m e w i t h m a y b e p o li c y o r s o m e o f t h e i s s u e s . S o w h e r e
w e d is c u s s a l l th e s e is s u e s a n d t h e ir r o l e is a ft e r w e h a v e ta k e n
d e c is i o n t h e y w il l b e a b l e t o in f o r m I C A S A o n s u c h m a t t e r s . E x a m p l e
w h e n w e a r e d e a l i n g w it h t h e p o l ic y w h e n i t c o m e s t o n e w s , w h e n it
c o m e s t o c o n t e n t t h e ir r o l e i s t o r e l a t e t h o s e d e c is i o n s w it h in t h e S A B C
to ICASA.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d th e n I C A S A is t o s e e w h e t h e r

c o n s ti t u ti o n a ll y t h e p o lic y t h a t w a s b e i n g m u t e d o r is m u t e d b y w h o e v e r
w i t h t h e S A B C is in l in e w i th th e c o n s t it u ti o n a n d a l l t h e r e g u la t o r y
20

fr a m e w o r k o f t h e S A B C ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
p o li c y.

Ye s .

N o w l e t u s t a lk a b o u t t h e 9 0 /1 0

D i d th a t p o lic y – I c a ll it a p o l ic y b u t t h e 9 0 / 1 0 d ir e c tiv e o r

in s t r u c t i o n d i d th a t i n fa c t b e c o m e a p o l ic y o f t h e S A B C ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

Ye s C h a ir.

Page 15 of 177

I t i s a p o li c y a n d

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h a t p o li c y a r i s e fr o m t h e Br o a d c a s t i n g A c t. B e c a u s e w h e n y o u r e a d
B r o a d c a s ti n g A c t i t s a y s t h a t t h e r o l e o f S A B C is to d e v e lo p l o c a l
c o n te n t . Is t o d e v e l o p p r o d u c ti o n h o u s e s b u t a ls o i t i s to c a te r 11
la n g u a g e s .

S o w h e n I w a s a r g u i n g a b o u t t h is l o c a l c o n t e n t i s h e r e

C h a ir p e r s o n w e a r e g u i d e d b y a b r o a d c a s t in g a c t b u t a l s o a s h u m a n
b e i n g s w e w a n t t o m a k e s u r e th a t p e o p l e w h o b e n e fi t a r e S o u th
A fr ic a n s fir s t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . N o le t u s – I a p p r e c ia t e t h a t b u t l e t
u s t a l k a b o u t t h is .
10

W h e n y o u fe l t t h a t t h e 9 0 / 1 0 p o li c y m u s t b e

d e v e l o p e d d i d it g o t h r o u g h t h e D e p a r t m e n t – t h e P o l ic y a n d R e g u l a t o r y
D e p a r t m e n t o f th e S A B C ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . R e a s o n b e i n g C h a ir a s I
said we have all these summit, we have ESCO meetings where the
t e a m s s i t t o g e t h e r. W e b r i e f t h e te a m b u t a ls o r e m e m b e r t h e p o l ic e i s
t h e b o a r d is s u e .

I t g o e s t h r o u g h t h e s t e p s w i th i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n i t

g o e s t o t h e b o a r d f o r a p p r o v a l.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : D i d i t – a r e y o u a w a r e w h e t h e r it w e n t t o
ICASA

because

remember

when

you

o u t li n e d

th e

role

of

that

d e p a r t m e n t y o u m e n ti o n e d IC A S A . D i d th a t g o th r o u g h t o I C A S A ?
20

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

T h a t i s t h e r o le o f t h e – t h a t

u n i t w i th i n t h e S A B C t o in f o r m I C A S A a b o u t a ll t h e d e c is io n th a t w e a r e
t a k i n g i n t h e S A B C . I w i ll ta k e t h a t t h e y h a v e t a k e n t o I C A S A .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B e c a u s e t h a t is t h e ir r o l e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o w th a t is o n e p o l ic y. L e t u s t a l k a b o u t

Page 16 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h e n t h e Vi o l e n t P r o t e s t P o l ic y c o v e r a g e .

Did you regard that as a

p o li c y ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e Vi o le n c e P o l ic y is t h e a c t ,
is t h e l a w. Is h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k i n my a ffi d a v i t I a ls o q u o t e t h e
a c t t h a t y o u c a n n o t g l a m o u r iz e s u c h a v i s u a l i t i s u n la w f u l t o d o t h a t .
W e a r e g u id e d b y t h e a c t C h a ir p e r s o n . W e m a y b e w r o n g C h a ir p e r s o n
w h e r e I a m s a y i n g th a t is w h y I w a s s a y i n g I a m n o t h e r e to d e fe n d I a m
ju s t h e r e t o e x p la i n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d w h a t I d i d C h a ir p e r s o n . A n d
C h a ir p e r s o n y o u k n o w p e o p l e a r e s h o c k e d b e c a u s e th e y w e r e t h in k i n g
10

t h a t I a m c o m in g h e r e t o d e f e n d .

To s a y I a m n o t h e r e t o d e fe n d

C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I w a n t t o e m p h a s i s e t h a t . Yo u w il l d e c i d e . I m a y b e
w r o n g I m a y b e r i g h t t h a t i s n o t m e t o d e c id e o n t h e m a t t e r s . T h a t is
h o w S A B C w e r e o p e r a ti n g a n d th a t is h o w w e f e e l t h a t w e a r e s u p p o s e d
t o d o t h in g s t h e w a y w e d i d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe – maybe I can just.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I c a n j u s t e x p l a in t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n th e a c t a n d
r e g u la t io n s a n d t h e p o li c y.
20

N o w b e c a u s e s h e a s k e d y o u w h e th e r t h e

in s t r u c t i o n o r d ir e c tiv e r e la t in g t o n o t s h o w i n g t h e v is u a ls r e la t in g t o
b u r n in g o f p r o p e r t y. W h e t h e r th a t s h o u l d n o t b e s h o w n . N o w th e – y o u
w o u ld f in d t h a t t h e r e is t h e c o n s t it u ti o n o f t h e c o u n t r y w h ic h d e a l s w i t h
a lot of things.

P l a c i n g o b li g a t i o n s o n in s t i tu t io n s a n d p e o p l e a n d

c o n fe r r i n g r i g h t s o n p e o p le . T h e n y o u h a v e g o t le g i s l a ti o n , a n a c t . A l l
o f t h o s e a r e b in d in g i n r e g a r d t o c e r t a i n is s u e s .

Page 17 of 177

W h e n t h e y p la c e a n

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
o b li g a ti o n y o u a r e – it i s b i n d i n g . A n d w h e r e t h e y g i v e a r ig h t t h a t r i g h t
is a r i g h t th a t s h o u ld b e r e s p e c t e d a n d p e o p l e c a n g o t o c o u r t a b o u t i t .
A n d y o u m ig h t h a v e r e g u l a ti o n s w h i c h a r e p r o m u lg a te d i n t e r m s o f a n
a c t o f p a r li a m e n t .

Th e y d e a l w i t h m o r e d e t a i ls t h a t a n Ac t m i g h t n o t

d e a l w i t h a n d t h e n y o u h a v e g o t a p o l ic y.
guide.

I t is n o t r ig id u s u a lly.

A p o lic y u s u a ll y is - i s a

T h a t is t h e m a in d i ff e r e n c e I th i n k

b e t w e e n a n Ac t , a r e g u l a ti o n a n d a p o lic y b u t t h e p o li c y m u s t n o t b e i n
c o n fli c t w i th le g i s l a ti o n o r w i t h th e C o n s t it u ti o n .
S o a p o l ic y i s s u p p o s e d to s a y t h i s is h o w w e w il l n o r m a ll y
10

d e a l w i th t h i s k i n d o f s i t u a t io n b u t it d o e s n o t n e c e s s a r il y m e a n t h a t
t h e r e c a n n e v e r b e a d e v i a t i o n i f c ir c u m s t a n c e s r e q u ir e a d e v i a t i o n . S o
- s o th a t - th a t is - th a t is t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g .

T h a t i s t h e d is t in c t i o n

t h a t I t h o u g h t I m i g h t j u s t m e n t io n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e t h e n y o u c a n g o b a c k t o t h e q u e s ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - s o i n o t h e r w o r d s th e - t h e r e w o u ld b e a

d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n t h e p o l ic y a n d a n A c t b u t t h e t w o m i g h t b e s a y in g
the same thing or - and so on.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t . Yo u w a n t t o s a y s o m e th i n g ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir I a g r e e w i t h y o u 1 0 0

Page 18 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
p e r c e n t b e c a u s e m y v i e w is t h e p o lic y s h o u l d - w h ic h a l i g n e d a n y p o l ic y
with the Act.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n I a g r e e w i t h

y o u 1 0 0 p e r c e n t. T h a t is w h y C h a i r p e r s o n I a m h a v i n g t h is b o o k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

And

when

we

to o k

th e s e

d e c is i o n s I w a s r e a d in g th is b o o k C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
10

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ve r y w e ll .

I may be wrong in

my reading …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t I w a s g u i d e d b y t h is b o o k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. H a v in g t h e n - w h e n t h e
C h a ir h a s e x p l a i n e d t o y o u M r M o ts o e n e n g h o w t h e s e t w o d i ff e r th e
in s t r u c t i o n to p e o p l e n o t t o c o v e r o r t o t h e j o u r n a l is ts n o t t o c o v e r
v io l e n t p r o t e s ts .
in s t r u c t i o n
20

go

N o w w h a t I w o u ld l ik e to u n d e r s t a n d d id t h a t
th r o u g h

the

P o lic y

and

Regulatory

Fr a m e w o r k

D e p a r t m e n t s o t h a t t h e y c o u ld a s s e s s th e t y p e o f i n s tr u c ti o n t h a t w a s
b e i n g g i v e n a n d h o w w o u ld i t a ff e c t th e e x is ti n g p o l ic ie s a n d h o w w o u l d
it r e l a t e t o I C A S A’s m a n d a t e ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n i t is n o t t h e p o li c y.
I t w a s a d e c is io n th a t w e h a v e t a k e n a t t h e S A B C .

Myself and

D r C h iz u m b a w h o w a s i n c h a r g e fo r P B S a n d P C S y o u r c o m m e r c i a l a n d

Page 19 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
y o u r p u b l ic p l a t f o r m s .

S o w e d is c u s s e d t h e s e is s u e s b e fo r e w e

r e l e a s e d t h a t p r e s s s t a t e m e n t b u t w e d i d n o t s a y t h e y s h o u ld n o t c o v e r
C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I w a n t t o c l e a r t h i s is s u e .

W e d i d n o t s a y th e y

s h o u l d n o t c o v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I w a s g o in g t o c o m e b a c k t o t h a t l a t e r o n to s a y
le t u s h e a r e x a c tly w h a t i t - i t - w h e t h e r i t i s a p o li c y o r d e c is io n w h a t it
said should or should not be done.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

We - we -

w h e n w e r e l e a s e a s t a t e m e n t th e s t a t e m e n t i s r e le a s e d b y t h e
10

s p o k e s p e r s o n o f t h e o r g a n i s a t io n .

I - I saw that statement saying -

t a lk in g a b o u t w e a r e n o t g o in g t o s h o w t h e - t h e p e o p l e b u r n in g - w h a t b u il d in g o r w h a t e v e r.

B u r n i n g - le t m e u s e t h is w o r d b u r n i n g b u t t h e

in t e n t io n o f t h a t i t w a s p e o p l e s h o u l d b e r e s p o n s i b l e w h e n t h e y r e p o r t
t h e s e is s u e s C h a i r p e r s o n .
Yo u k n o w b e c a u s e p e o p le th e y w e r e h a v in g r e a l ly d i ff e r e n t
v ie w s e s p e c i a l ly m e d ia g e n e r a l.

I w a s c a l le d b y a p r e s s c lu b m y s e lf

a n d J o e T h lo l o e . I e x p l a i n e d t h e r e to s a y lo o k w h a t w e a r e s a y in g h e r e
is w e a r e s a y i n g d o n o t s h o w th e p h y s ic a l i ty w h i c h m e a n s t h e
p h y s i c a li t y C h a ir p e r s o n i t w il l b e if s o m e o n e ju s t c o m e s a n d b u r n s t h i s
20

a n d w e a r e - w e a r e i n s i d e t h is r o o m .
D o n o t s h o w th o s e v is u a ls w h e r e p e o p l e n o w a r e s e e n b e in g
b u r n t . T h a t w a s t h e in t e n t i o n C h a ir p e r s o n . E v e n a f t e r t h a t S A B C h a s
b e e n c o v e r in g s u c h v i s u a l s . I t i s j u s t t h e r e s p o n s i b i li t y p a r t . W e a r e
not burning anything Chairperson.

We are just saying let us be

r e s p o n s i b l e a n d s h o w t h a t w e a r e r e s p o n s ib le w h e n w e d e a l w i th t h e s e

Page 20 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
is s u e s . I t i s n o t r e a lly b u r n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o - s o a r e y o u th e r e f o r e s a y i n g th a t i f - a r e y o u

t h e r e f o r e s a y in g t h a t t h a t d e c is io n w a s n o t t o t h e e ffe c t t h a t i f a n S A B C
jo u r n a li s t is c o v e r i n g a p r o t e s t a n d p r o t e s t e r s s e t a b u i ld in g a l i g h t o r a
c li n i c o r a s c h o o l t h e y s h o u l d n o t s h o w t h a t p e r s e . Yo u w e r e s i m p ly
s a y in g i f th e r e is s o m e t h i n g e ls e o th e r t h a n ju s t th e b u r n i n g o f t h e
p r o p e r ty l ik e m a y b e s o m e b o d y w h o w a s tr y i n g t o c o m e o u t o f t h e
b u il d in g b e in g c a u g h t i n fir e .
D o n o t s h o w t h a t p a r t . I s - is th a t w h a t - w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g
10

t h e d e c i s i o n w a s a b o u t?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . Th e d e c is io n
was just be responsible …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W h e n y o u - y o u d e a l w i th t h e s e
is s u e s a n d th a t is n o t w h e r e y o u a r e i n s tr u c t in g p e o p l e d o n o t c o v e r th e
s t o r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

That

was

not

the

issue

C h a ir p e r s o n …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
C h a ir p e r s o n .

Sophie Mokoena

and

And

I

w il l

a ll u d e

N o th a n d o M a s e k o

to

they

t h is
were

concerned about that statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r r e l e a s i n g th a t

Page 21 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

E a r ly

in

the

m o r n in g

they

a r r iv e d in m y o ff ic e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

To a s k C O O b u t w h a t is th is

is s u e s t h a t y o u - y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t n o w.

We do not understand.

C a n y o u e x p la i n ?
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I e x p l a in e d t o t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

T h e y d i d u n d e r s ta n d w h e r e I

c o m e fr o m C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

T h a t is w h y a l l th e P r e t o r ia

r io t s t h e y w e r e c o v e r e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : D u r in g m y t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

T h e is s u e i s t h a t l e t u s b e

responsible …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W h e n w e d e a l w i th t h e s e i s s u e s
a n d C h a ir y e s te r d a y I s a i d I h a v e b e e n a j o u r n a l is t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 22 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u k n o w w h e n p e o p l e m o b i li s e
e v e n c a l li n g u s a s jo u r n a l is ts a s t o s a y y o u k n o w to m o r r o w w e a r e
going to do one, two, three.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w a s s a y in g i t i s w r o n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

S o w e a s S A B C i n c l u d i n g th e

jo u r n a li s ts o f S A B C …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

They should not know that

b e c a u s e i m m e d i a t e ly w h e n w e b e c o m e p a r t o f t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u a r e n o t d o i n g w h a t y o u a r e
s u p p o s e d to d o C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I t h a s n o th i n g t o d o w i t h t h e

b u r n in g a s p e o p l e a r e - a r e p u t ti n g i t C h a ir p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
20

And I am on record.

I have

explained several times …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n o n th o s e i s s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k w h a t b e c o m e s i m p o r t a n t is t o u n d e r s t a n d

Page 23 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
e x a c tl y w h a t t h e a m b i t o f t h e d ir e c t iv e o r d e c is i o n w a s a n d t o
u n d e r s t a n d h o w th e j o u r n a l is ts w h o w e r e s u p p o s e d t o c o m p ly w it h i t
w h e t h e r i t t o l d t h e m t h i s i s w h a t y o u s h o u l d n o t d o a n d t h e r e fo r e t h e y
w o u ld k n o w i f I d o t h is I w i ll b e in b r e a c h o f th is d e c is i o n o r w h e t h e r i t
w a s d i ffi c u l t t o s a y e x a c tl y w h a t i t - w h a t i t m e a n s .
Yo u s a y t h e - t h e id e a w a s b e r e s p o n s i b le .

Now of course

w h e n y o u s a y b e r e s p o n s i b le t h e q u e s ti o n w o u l d b e w h a t d o e s t h a t
a c t u a ll y m e a n . N o w w e - w e h a v e u s e d o n e e x a m p l e w h ic h I s e e m to
t h i n k y o u - y o u s a i d y o u - i t w o u l d fa ll w i t h in t h e d e c i s i o n - t h e a m b i t o f
10

t h e d e c is io n . N a m e ly i f a b u i l d i n g i s b u r n in g a n d s o m e b o d y w a s tr y i n g
t o c o m e o u t n o w is c a u g h t i n th e fir e .
Please do not show that part.

D id - d i d y o u s a y t h a t w o u l d

f a ll w i t h i n w h a t y o u s a y d o n o t - i f y o u a r e r e s p o n s i b l e y o u a r e n o t
g o i n g t o s h o w th a t p a r t w h e r e th e p e r s o n i s b u r n i n g ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S o - s o t h e - t h e q u e s ti o n th e n w o u ld b e h o w f a r
- h o w fa r w o u ld t h is g o . W h e n a r e y o u b e i n g r e s p o n s i b l e ? W h e n a r e
y o u n o t b e i n g r e s p o n s ib le if t h e id e a is n o t t o s a y d o n o t s h o w t h e
b u r n in g o f p r o p e r ty a t a ll b e c a u s e o f c o u r s e j u s t fr o m o b s e r v i n g
20

p u b lic a lly t h e r e w o u l d b e v e r y fe w in s ta n c e s w h e r e p e o p le - p r o p e r t ie s
b e i n g b u r n t d u r in g a p r o t e s t a n d - w e l l m a y b e I s h o u ld n o t s a y t h e r e
w i ll b e v e r y f e w b u t I h o p e t h e r e w o u ld n o t b e t o o m a n y i n s ta n c e s
w h e r e p e o p le a r e i n s id e t h e - th e b u i l d i n g b u t w h a t - w h a t o th e r
e x a m p l e s c o u ld y o u g i v e t o s a y w e l l i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i n b r e a c h o f
t h a t d e c is i o n o r i n d e f ia n c e o f t h a t d e c i s i o n i f a j o u r n a li s t d id A , B , C ,

Page 24 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
D?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Or did you not go that far in - in - (coughing) excuse
m e - c l a r i fy i n g it in y o u r o w n m i n d ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n .

The issue

h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n is w h e r e - i n m y a ff i d a v it I r e f e r w h e r e t h e A c t s a y s
y o u c a n n o t g l a m o r i s e v i o l e n c e . Yo u c a n n o t s h o w e x p l ic i t v is u a l s . S o I
h a v e c l a r i fi e d t h e s e is s u e s .

W h a t in f o r ms is t h e Ac t C h a i r p e r s o n

b e c a u s e i f w e o p e r a t e o u t s i d e th is A c t it w i ll b e u n l a w fu l C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

I d o n o t w a n t to s a y t h a t b e c a u s e I a m n o t C h a ir p e r s o n .
I a m n o t in y o u r p o s it i o n . Yo u a r e - y o u h a v e t h e r ig h t t o s a y
t h a t b u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g it is - i t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g b e c a u s e I d o n o t
w a n t to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r - y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

I t w il l b e

u n l a w f u l b e c a u s e w e a r e g u i d e d b y t h e A c t C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e if w e
a r e g o i n g t o d o a n d o p e r a t e o u t s i d e t h i s A c t I h a v e a s e r io u s p r o b le m
C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h i s A c t is n o t c o v e r in g p r i v a t e m e d i a .
c o v e r in g a p u b li c b r o a d c a s t e r C h a ir p e r s o n i n m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g .
20

It is
So

p e o p l e t h e y w a n t t o c o m p e t e i n t h e s p a c e e q u a lly w i t h t h e p r i v a t e
media.
T h a t is w h e r e I t h i n k w e h a v e d i ff e r e n t v i e w s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d
u n d e r s t a n d in g o f h o w w e s h a l l d o - d e a l w it h t h e s e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
M a y - m a y b e C h a ir p e r s o n t o c o m e t o - t o y o u r e x a m p l e t h a t y o u d id
about someone going out and then someone now - the visuals show the

Page 25 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
person …
CHAIRPERSON: Burning?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .

S o to b e

h o n e s t C h a i r p e r s o n th a t is n o t a ll o w e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w - n o w t h a t - th a t - I w a n t e d c o n fir m a t i o n

t h a t t h a t s i tu a ti o n w o u l d fa ll w i t h i n w h a t y o u r d e c is i o n w a s s a y i n g
s h o u l d n o t b e s h o w n a n d t h e n m y q u e s t i o n w a s to s e e w h e t h e r y o u a r e
a b l e t o p o i n t o u t o t h e r - m a y b e t w o o r t h r e e o t h e r e x a m p le s o f t h e k i n d
of thing that should not be shown when you say be responsible.
10

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n , th is o t h e r is a

d i ff ic u l t o n e b e c a u s e p u b li c a ll y y o u k n o w th e r e is la n g u a g e t h a t y o u
cannot - you - you …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u c a n n o t u s e . J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: There - there are several …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t b e c a u s e I a m a t t h e p u b lic
…
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. No, no.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Pl a t fo r m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: But I can …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Page 26 of 177

Wr it e

another

a ff id a v i t

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t I m a y d o b e c a u s e s o m e o f t h e is s u e s t o b e h o n e s t … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : P u b l ic a l ly e v e n m y s e l f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I - I d o n o t w a n t t o d e a l w i th

them but …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e r e a r e a f e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no that is fine. Ms Norma.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y I j u s t r e f e r to t h e - t h e - it is r e fe r r e d
t o a s t h e E d i to r i a l E d i t. I f I m a y j u s t r e f e r C h a ir t o a b u n d l e .
CHAIRPERSON: Just one second.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h s o r r y C h a i r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

20

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

It is EXHIBIT CC05 to

EXHIBIT CC16. CC05 to CC16. Chair I would not have asked that it be
placed before you.

I d e c i d e d t h a t m a y b e i t i s b e t t e r i f t h e y a r e la i d

h e r e a n d t h e n e v e r y ti m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e c a u s e th e y j u s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.

Page 27 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : F iv e to 1 6 . T h a t is w h y y o u h a v e g o t a lis t
o f n a m e s o n i t . Yo u d o n o t h a v e i t ?
CHAIRPERSON: Did you get the name of the
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h e - t h e - w h a t e x h ib i t i t i s …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: CC
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o r r e c t ly ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : ( In d is t in c t) .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u h a v e g o t a b o u t 1 6 n a m e s o n i t w h e r e
10

y o u h a v e Mr P h ir i a n d t h e m . I s i t o n th e r e ?
CHAIRPERSON: Remember I have got some here. If you say - if you
t e ll m e …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The page - I could - I could …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e is o n e w h ic h h a s g o t w h a t t h e p o l ic i e s a r e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C h a i r th is i s t h e o n e th a t h a s g o t t h e

in s t r u c t i o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O n - o n t h e p r o te s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Well …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M r - M r M o ts o e n e n g c o u l d y o u p le a s e j u s t
h a v e a l o o k w h e t h e r y o u h a d s ig h t …

Page 28 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON: Remember he said he does not have to have a look.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh, he does not have to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e - h e r e m e m b e r s t h e s e th i n g s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: He can read.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I s a id t h a t if h e d o e s n e e d …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: If he does need then he can (intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e m u s t ju s t s a y s o , ja .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I think read to him what you have …
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . S e e w h a t - w h a t is c o n t a in e d .
CHAIRPERSON: And, ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. I w o u l d l ik e y o u t o
t u r n t o C C 1 2 w h ic h is t h e s t a t e m e n t o f M r J a k o b D a n i e l K r i g e . To h is
s t a te m e n t h e a t ta c h e d t h e L a b o u r C o u r t ju d g m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I h a v e g o t th e L a b o u r C o u r t j u d g m e n t i n fr o n t o f m e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is w h e r e th e e d i t is q u o t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It q u o t e s …

20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t q u o te s i t , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It q u o t e s i t y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A t p a g e 8 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Thank

you.

M r M o ts o e n e n g w h a t th e L a b o u r C o u r t r e c o r d e d .

Page 29 of 177

If

I

may

just

read

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - b u t y o u a r e r e a d i n g th e s t a t e m e n t is s u e d b y t h e
SABC on …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: On - on …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n p r o te s t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s q u o t e d b y t h e L a b o u r C o u r t i n t h e ju d g m e n t , ja .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B y t h e - a s q u o t e d b y th e L a b o u r C o u r t.

Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d th e n th e L a b o u r
Court in paragraph 8 just on page 83. It says:
“ I t is n o w w e l l k n o w n th a t o n 2 6 M a y 2 0 1 6 t h e S A B C
is s u e d th e fo ll o w i n g n e w s E d i t o r i a l E d i t k n o w n a s
t h e Pr o te s t P o lic y w h ic h s t a t e d :

S A B C w i ll n o

lo n g e r b r o a d c a s t fo o t a g e o f d e s tr u c t io n o f p u b l ic
p r o p e r ty d u r i n g p r o t e s ts .
26 May 2016.

The

Johannesburg Thursday

S o u t h A f r ic a n

B r o a d c a s ti n g

C o r p o r a ti o n ( “ S A B C ” ) h a s n o t e d w it h c o n c e r n t h e
r e c e n t t u r m o il a r is i n g fr o m v io le n t s e r v ic e d e l iv e r y
20

p r o t e s t s i n v a r io u s p a r ts o f t h e c o u n tr y. T h e S A B C
a s a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r w o u l d l ik e to c o n d e m n t h e
b u r n in g o f p u b l ic in s ti t u t i o n s a n d h a s m a d e a
d e c is i o n th a t i t w i ll n o t s h o w f o o ta g e o f p e o p l e
b u r n in g p u b lic in s ti t u t i o n s li k e s c h o o l s i n a n y o f i t s
n e w s b u l le t in s w i t h i m m e d i a t e e ffe c t.

Page 30 of 177

We are not

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
g o i n g t o p r o v id e p u b lic i ty to s u c h a c ti o n s th a t a r e
d e s tr u c tiv e a n d r e g r e s s iv e . Th e S A B C is c o g n is a n t
o f t h e fa c t th a t c i ti z e n s h a v e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l r ig h ts t o
p r o t e s t a n d v o i c e t h e i r c o n c e r n s o n v a r i o u s is s u e s
t h a t t h e y a r e n o t h a p p y w i t h b u t w e a ls o d o n o t
b e li e v e t h a t d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty is th e b e s t w a y
t o v o ic e t h o s e g r i e v a n c e s .

T h e s e a c ti o n s a r e

regrettable

r e g r e s s iv e

and

viewed

as

on

the

d e v e l o p m e n ts m a d e a f t e r 2 2 y e a r s o f S o u t h A f r i c a ’s
10

d e m o c r a c y.

C o n ti n u i n g t o p r o m o t e t h e m m i g h t

e n c o u r a g e o t h e r c o m m u n i t ie s t o d o th e s a m e . T h e
S A B C w o u l d l ik e t o s tr e s s t h a t w e w i ll c o n t in u e t o
c o v e r n e w s w i t h o u t f e a r o r f a v o u r.

W e w ill n o t

c o v e r p e o p l e w h o a r e d e s tr o y in g p u b l ic p r o p e r ty.
The

SABC

Chief

O p e r a ti o n s

O ff ic e r

M r H la u d i M o ts o e n e n g s ta t e d t h a t i t i s r e g r e t t a b l e
t h a t t h e s e a c ti o n s a r e d is r u p t in g m a n y liv e s a n d a s
a r e s p o n s i b l e p u b li c i n s t i tu t io n w e w i ll n o t a s s i s t
t h e s e i n d iv id u a l s t o p u s h t h e i r a g e n d a t h a t s e e k s
20

m e d i a a tt e n ti o n .

A s a p u b l ic s e r v ic e b r o a d c a s t e r

w e h a v e a m a n d a te to e d u c a t e t h e c i ti z e n s a n d w e
t h e r e f o r e h a v e ta k e n t h is b o l d d e c is i o n t o s h o w t h a t
v io l e n t p r o te s ts a r e n o t n e c e s s a r y.

W e w o u ld li k e

t o e n c o u r a g e c it iz e n s to p r o te s t p e a c e f u ll y w i t h o u t
d e s tr o y i n g

th e

very same

i n s ti t u ti o n s

Page 31 of 177

that are

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
n e e d e d t o r e s to r e th e ir d i g n i ty.

Th e S A B C w o u ld

lik e to m a k e a n a p p e a l to o t h e r S o u t h A f r ic a n
broadcasters

and

the

print media to stand in

s o l i d a r i ty w i t h th e p u b lic b r o a d c a s t e r n o t to c o v e r
t h e v io le n t p r o t e s ts th a t a r e o n t h e r is e a n d i n tu r n
d e s tr o y i n g p u b li c i n s ti t u ti o n s . ”
Is t h is t h e s t a t e m e n t t h a t y o u is s u e d Mr M o ts o e n e n g ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n i t is c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Yo u k n o w w e e v e n tr ie d t o

lo b b y o u r - o u r p a r t n e r s b u t t h e y c a m e fo r u s b u t C h a ir p e r s o n I a m s ti ll
s a y in g t h a t s t a t e m e n t d e m o n s tr a t e s p e o p le w h o a r e r e s p o n s i b le , p e o p le
w h o a r e a c c o u n t a b l e o n a l l i s s u e s t h a t w e - w e - d e c is i o n s t h a t w e w e r e
taking.

T h e i s s u e t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n w e d i d n o t s a y w e ll w h e n y o u

r e l e a s e s t a te m e n t I a m j u s t s a y i n g C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e y o u k n o w I
c a n n o t s a y to p e o p le g o a n d b u r n .
W e a r e g o i n g t o c o v e r.

I w a s j u s t r u n n i n g a w a y fr o m -

b e c a u s e I k n e w t h a t p e o p l e t h e y w a n t - t h e y w e r e e v e n c a l li n g u s . N o w
t h e y a r e g o i n g to m a r c h a n d d o - w e j u s t d is c o u r a g i n g th e m b u t w e a r e
20

s t il l c o v e r i n g th o s e v is u a ls w h e n t h e y - t h e y g o a n d c a u s e t h e h a v o c
t h a t t h e y w e r e - b e c a u s e w e w e r e s t il l c o v e r in g i t C h a ir p e r s o n . I t is a
responsible statement.
I do not see any wrong about that statement Chairperson
b e c a u s e w e w e r e s t il l c o v e r i n g b u t w h e n y o u d o i t - y o u k n o w
C h a ir p e r s o n e v e n y o u r c h il d r e n y o u - y o u k n o w t h e y c a n d o t h is b u t

Page 32 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h e r e is a w a y th a t t h e y m u s t d o i t. T h e r e is a w a y t h a t y o u w il l t a l k t o
t h e m a n d I a m n o t s a y i n g p e o p le o f S o u th A f r ic a a r e c h i ld r e n
C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e m e d i a c a n s a y I s a id p e o p l e a r e c h il d r e n .
S o I a m n o t i m p ly i n g th a t . I a m j u s t s a y i n g t h e r e is a w a y o f o f t a lk i n g b u t k n o w i n g w h e n y o u d o y o u r - y o u r w o r k y o u d o i t
p r o f e s s i o n a ll y e v e n in f o r m e d b y t h e B r o a d c a s t in g A c t C h a ir p e r s o n . S o
I d o n o t t h in k t h a t s ta t e m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n r e a l ly - I t h i n k i t s u p p o r t s
w h a t I s a i d e a r li e r C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s u r e M s N o r m a n h a s f u r th e r q u e s t i o n s f o r y o u …
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h a t is s u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. S o I j u s t
want to understand that two of - of you within the SABC decided one
d a y t h a t th i n g h a s t o s t o p .

I t m u s t n o t b e c o v e r e d a n d y o u is s u e d a

s t a te m e n t .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e a l r e a d y

a n s w e r e d t h a t q u e s ti o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
20

I s a i d C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t is

c o m m u n ic a ti o n t h a t w e n t t h r o u g h t o m e d i a p e o p l e o f S o u t h A fr ic a b u t
t h e r e a li t y w e w e r e s t il l c o v e r i n g t h o s e v is u a ls b u t w e - w e s a i d t o o u r o u r p e o p le b e r e s p o n s ib le C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t …
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e y th i n k th a t w e th e n …
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Motsoeneng …

Page 33 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t th e q u e s t i o n is in e ff e c t w h o th e p e o p l e a r e w h o
m a d e th is d e c is i o n a n d I t h in k M s N o r m a n w a s s a y i n g d id y o u s a y i t
was two people?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o a r e t h e p e o p le w h o m a d e t h is d e c is io n if i t w a s
m o r e th a n o n e ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n a s th e C O O o f t h e
o r g a n i s a t io n it is m y r o l e to t a k e s u c h d e c is io n s . I to o k t h a t d e c i s i o n
10

C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I s ta n d b y t h a t d e c i s i o n w r o n g o r r i g h t y o u w il l - y o u
w i ll h a v e y o u r fi n d i n g C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

B e c a u s e I th in k I d i d t h e r ig h t

thing …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Fo r S A B C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I s t ill s t a n d b y t h a t d e c i s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I take ownership …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n o n w h a t I d i d .
CHAIRPERSON: So it was your decision?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t w a s my d e c i s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I c o n s u l te d J a n i n e M a t t h e w s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I c o n s u l te d D r C h iz u m b a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: But we agree …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O n th a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . S o n o w th is d e c is io n i s t a k e n
a n d y o u h a v e t a k e n f u l l r e s p o n s ib il i ty o f t h is d e c i s i o n a n d a n y o n e w h o
d i ff e r e d w i t h th a t d e c is io n h a d to b e d is c i p li n e d ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Not at all.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e n c a n y o u e x p l a i n to t h e C h a i r p e r s o n

h o w c o m e t h a t y o u h a v e t h e S A B C e i g h t t h a t p e o p le t h a t g o t f ir e d t h a t
g o t s u s p e n d e d g o t c h a r g e d a s a r e s u l t o f f a il in g to c o m p ly w i t h t h a t
d e c is i o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h a t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : M s N o r m a n I t h o u g h t y o u - I t h o u g h t y o u m ig h t h a v e
q u e s t io n s p r io r t o r e a c h in g t h a t p o i n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I - I certainly do.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s C h a i r.
CHAIRPERSON:

M r M o ts o e n e n g

Ms Norman

Page 35 of 177

w i ll

not

fo r g e t

her

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
q u e s t io n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : L a t e r o n s h e w ill - s h e w ill a s k i t a g a i n . I d o n o t r e a d
t h is s t a te m e n t th a t M s N o r m a n h a s ju s t r e a d o u t a l o u d to m e a n w h a t
y o u h a v e s a i d . Yo u h a v e s a id th e d e c is i o n w a s n o t th a t t h e j o u r n a li s t s
s h o u l d n o t s h o w v is u a ls o f p r o t e s t e r s b u r n i n g p r o p e r ty fo r e x a m p le .
Yo u h a v e s a id t h a t - y o u s a i d t h e y m u s t b e r e s p o n s i b le a n d w e m a d e
t h a t e x a m p l e th a t I r a is e d w it h y o u t o s a y o k a y.
W e r e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t f o r e x a m p l e a b u il d i n g is b e i n g b u r n t
10

d u r i n g a v i o l e n t p r o t e s t a n d s o m e b o d y i s c o m in g o u t o f t h e b u il d i n g a n d
g e t s c a u g h t o u t i n th e f ir e a n d y o u s a y th a t p a r t t h e y m u s t b e s e n s it iv e
t h e y m u s t n o t s h o w th a t p a r t a n d y o u s a id th a t w o u l d b e o n e o f t h e
e x a m p l e s a n d y o u s a i d t h e r e a r e o th e r e x a m p l e s w h ic h y o u d id n o t f e e l
c o m f o r t a b l e m e n t io n in g b e c a u s e th is i s a p u b li c f o r u m .
S o m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t y o u r e v id e n c e is , is t h e d e c i s i o n
t h a t y o u t o o k a n d c o n v e y e d d id n o t s a y i f p e o p l e a r e s h o w i n g - i f
p e o p l e a r e b u r n i n g p r o p e r ty d u r i n g p r o t e s ts d o n o t s h o w t h a t .

Yo u r s

w a s t o g o b e y o n d t h a t i f t h e r e is s o m e th i n g e l s e t h a t i s h a p p e n i n g o r
t h a t is c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h i s b u r n i n g o r p r o p e r ty.
20

M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f

your evidence was correct?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I t is c o r r e c t , j a .

L e t u s g o b a c k - l e t u s g o to t h e

s t a te m e n t . Yo u m u s t ju s t s a y i f y o u p r e f e r t o h a v e i t a t h a n d n o w t h a t
w e a r e g o i n g t o i t b u t if y o u a r e s t il l c o m f o r ta b le if I j u s t r e a d t h e
r e l e v a n t p o r ti o n t h a t is fi n e . O k a y.

Page 36 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o C h a ir. I a m c o m f o r ta b le …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e c o m f o r t a b l e ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B e c a u s e I w a s in v o lv e d a ls o . I
k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y a lr i g h t .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

L e t m e - l e t m e ju s t r e a d s o m e r e le v a n t p a r ts o f -

s o m e p a r t s o f t h e s t a te m e n t .
“ T h e S o u t h A fr ic a n Br o a d c a s ti n g C o r p o r a ti o n h a s
10

n o t e d w i th c o n c e r n t h e r e c e n t t u r m o il a r i s in g fr o m
v io l e n t s e r v ic e d e liv e r y p r o t e s ts i n v a r io u s p a r ts o f
t h e c o u n t r y. ”
S o t h e c o n c e r n i s tu r m o i l a r i s i n g f r o m v i o l e n t s e r v i c e d e liv e r y
p r o t e s t s i n v a r i o u s p a r ts o f t h e c o u n tr y. T h e n i t s a y s :
“ T h e S A B C a s a p u b li c s e r v ic e b r o a d c a s t e r w o u l d
lik e t o c o n d e m n th e b u r n in g o f p u b l ic i n s t it u ti o n s
a n d h a s m a d e a d e c is i o n t h a t i t w il l n o t s h o w
f o o t a g e o f p e o p l e b u r n i n g p u b li c in s ti t u ti o n s l ik e
s c h o o l s in a n y o f it s n e w s b u l le t in s w it h i m m e d i a t e

20

e ffe c t.

W e a r e n o t g o i n g to p r o v i d e p u b l ic i t y to

s u c h a c ti o n s th a t a r e d e s tr u c tiv e a n d r e g r e s s iv e . ”
L e t u s ju s t t a k e t h a t . T h a t s e e m s t o m e a n d y o u m u s t t e l l m e
w h e t h e r my r e a d i n g o f i t is i n y o u r v i e w i n c o r r e c t . T h a t s a y s w e a r e n o t
g o i n g t o s h o w v is u a ls o f t h e b u i l d i n g o f p r o p e r ty d u r i n g p r o t e s ts . T h a t
is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f i t .

Is t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g a s w e ll ?

Page 37 of 177

Just

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h a t p a r t. I f y o u s a y w e l l i f y o u r e a d th a t p a r t a lo n e I a g r e e b u t i f y o u
r e a d i t w i t h t h e r e s t o f s o m e t h i n g e ls e t h a t is s a i d i n t h e s ta t e m e n t i t it c h a n g e s t h e p i c tu r e .
T h e n w e - w e c a n g o t h e r e b u t I j u s t w a n t t o s a y if y o u a n y b o d y w h o r e a d t h a t p a r t w o u l d th e y b e m is ta k e n t o s a y th e S A B C
w a s s a y i n g to t h e p u b l ic y o u a r e n o lo n g e r g o i n g t o s e e v i s u a l s o f t h e
b u r n in g o f p r o p e r t i e s b y p r o t e s t e r s ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g

o n t h e s e m a t te r s a r e w e r e le a s e a s t a t e m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n . I a g r e e w i th
10

y o u C h a ir, f ir s tl y. W e - w e r e l e a s e a s t a t e m e n t b u t w h e n y o u r e l e a s e
a s a n a c c o u n t a b l e a n d r e s p o n s ib le p e r s o n I c a n n o t s a y w e a r e g o in g t o
- I c a n n o t i n c i te p e o p l e . L e t m e u s e t h i s w o r d . I c a n n o t in c i t e p e o p l e
b e c a u s e i f I s a y n o w e w i ll s h o w th e s e v i s u a l s I w il l b e i n c i ti n g a
c o m m u n i ty to d o t h a t s a m e s tu ff t h a t I k n o w i t is u n l a w f u l t h r o u g h th e
A c t b u t a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n w h y w e r e le a s e th a t s t a t e m e n t p e o p l e w e r e
c a l li n g u s .
N o w t h e y w e r e m a r c h i n g to S A B C b e c a u s e t h e n t h e y s e e F r e e
S t a te is b u r n in g G a u t e n g s t a r ts .
c o v e r e d G a u te n g .

20

So they were saying no you have

Yo u h a v e c o v e r e d t h a t o n e .

Yo u d id n o t c o v e r u s .

S o w e w e r e j u s t e x p l a in in g t o s a y n o b u t t h is w e c a n n o t . W e w e r e ju s t
d is c o u r a g i n g p e o p l e b u t w e - w e k n e w t h a t t h a t is w h y I e x p l a i n e d a f t e r
C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n p e o p l e w e r e a s k i n g th e s e is s u e s .
I c l a r i fy I t h in k a t th a t p o in t w h a t w e m e a n t b y t h is s t a t e m e n t .
I t w a s n o t a m a l ic io u s s ta t e m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n . W e d i d t h a t i n g o o d f a i t h
…

Page 38 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : To - t o d e a l w i t h s u c h is s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , b u t d o y o u - d o y o u - d o y o u a c c e p t - s i t ti n g

t h e r e n o w a s w e t a l k a n d m e r e a d i n g th is p a r t - d o y o u a c c e p t th a t i t
s a y s w h a t I a m s a y i n g ? N a m e ly t h e S A B C i s n o l o n g e r g o i n g t o s h o w
y o u - t h e p u b l ic - i t i s n o l o n g e r g o i n g t o s h o w y o u t h e b u r n i n g o f
p r o p e r ty b y p r o t e s t e r s ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n I a g r e e w i t h y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d I a m a ls o s a y i n g w h e n y o u
go to other paragraphs where you …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Yo u s p o k e a b o u t p e o p l e w h o

march …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : P e a c e fu lly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W h ic h m e a n s w e w il l s h o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W h a t p e o p le a r e d o i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

We

were

just

-

I

mean

C h a ir p e r s o n to b e h o n e s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I h a v e - I t h i n k i t is - i t is g o o d

Page 39 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
a c c o u n t a b i li ty.

I may be wrong.

I m a y b e r ig h t .

I leave that to you

C h a ir p e r s o n b u t t h a t is h o w w e - w e v ie w is s u e s e s p e c i a l ly w h e n
p e o p l e w e r e s t a r ti n g t o m a r c h t o t h e S A B - to d e m a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
Vi a n i C h a i r p e r s o n .

U s t o s h o w t h e m - e s p e c ia ll y

Yo u k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d .

Yo u k n o w w h a t

h a p p e n e d li b r a r y u n r e s t a n d o t h e r p la c e s . I a m j u s t g iv in g y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ex a m p l e C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

And

I

can

allude

to d a y

C h a ir p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Th e F a c e b o o k I n te r n a ti o n a l if I

a m c o r r e c t I th in k s o m e o n e t o l d m e th i s , t h is m o r n i n g .
b a n n e d e x p li c i t v i s u a ls o n t h e - o n th e i r p la t f o r m .

Th e y a ls o

I mean I am just

s a y in g t h e r e i s b a c k g r o u n d C h a ir p e r s o n o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e s e is s u e s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o t h a t ’s f in e , I t h i n k a t t h i s s t a g e , w h a t I ’ m

tr y i n g to e s t a b li s h i s w h a t a n y b o d y r e a d i n g t h e s t a te m e n t w o u l d
u n d e r s t a n d , s o w h a t th e s t a t e m e n t m e a n s .

It maybe that when you

e x p l a i n e d s u b s e q u e n t ly a f t e r it h a d b e e n i s s u e d t o c e r t a i n p e o p le o r t o
t h e m e d i a t h e e x p l a n a t io n w a s s o m e th i n g e ls e , b u t I ju s t w a n t t o s a y,

Page 40 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h is is w h a t i t s e e m s to m e a n b u t I th in k w e h a v e a g r e e d t h a t , a t l e a s t
a s fa r a s t h is p a r t is c o n c e r n e d , t h a t is w h a t i t s a id . It s a id S A B C w i ll
n o l o n g e r s h o w v i s u a l s o f p r o t e s to r s b u r n i n g p r o p e r t y a n d t h a t w e c a n g
f o r w a r d a n d l o o k a t o th e r s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir, w e a g r e e C h a ir.

W e a g r e e d o n t h a t ja .

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: And I want to say Chairperson if
y o u t a k e w h a t t h e L a b o u r C o u r t s a y s , w i t h d u e r e s p e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , I
t h i n k b y c a l li n g i t a p o lic y i t w a s w r o n g b e c a u s e i t w a s a d e c is i o n i t w a s
10

n o t a p o l ic y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, t h e n t h a t w a s th e o n e p a r a g r a p h a n d i t is

a t p a g e 8 4 o f th is b u n d l e , i n t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h t h is is w h a t th e
s t a te m e n t s a i d ,
“ T h e S A B C i s c o g n i s a n c e o f th e fa c t th a t c i t iz e n s h a v e
c o n s ti t u ti o n a l r i g h ts t o p r o t e s t a n d v o ic e th e i r c o n c e r n s o n
v a r io u s is s u e s t h a t th e y a r e n o t h a p p y w i t h b u t w e a ls o d o n o t
b e li e v e th a t d e s t r u c t i o n o f p r o p e r t y is t h e b e s t w a y t o v o i c e
those grievances.

T h e s e a c ti o n s a r e r e g r e t ta b l e a n d v ie w e d

as regressive of the developments made after 22 years of
20

S o u th A fr ic a ’s d e m o c r a c y, t h a t m i g h t b e fi n e , t h e n t h e n e x t
s e n te n c e , t h e n e x t tw o s e n t e n c e s o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h , c o n t i n u in g
t o p r o m o t e t h e m m i g h t e n c o u r a g e o t h e r c o m m u n it i e s to d o t h e
s a m e . T h e S A B C w o u l d li k e to s tr e s s t h a t w e w i ll c o n t i n u e t o
c o v e r n e w s w i t h o u t f e a r o r fa v o u r.
w h o a r e d e s tr o y in g p u b i c p r o p e r ty ” ,

Page 41 of 177

W e w i ll n o c o v e r p e o p le

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A g a i n w e w il l l o o k a t o th e r p a r t s , ju s t th is p a r t s e e m s t o m a k e
it q u i t e c l e a r th a t t h e S A B C is n o t g o i n g t o s h o w th e p u b lic t h e b u r n i n g
o f p r o p e r t y b y p r o t e s te r s , a r e w e a g r e e d ?
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

C h a ir p e r s o n I’ m o n e p e r s o n , i f

I’ v e t a k e n d e c is i o n w r o n g o r r i g h t I w il l j u s t s a y m y v i e w s , I d o n ’t w a n t
t o s a y I d i s a g r e e o r I a g r e e w i th y o u C h a ir p e r s o n , w e ’ ll c o m e t o t h a t
conclusion.

T h e s ta t e m e n t is c o r r e c t t h e w a y y o u a r e p u t ti n g i t

C h a ir p e r s o n , y e s it ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n I j u s t w a n t t o e la b o r a t e ,
C h a ir p e r s o n , I s t il l b e li e v e w h e r e I ’ m s i t t in g n o w C h a ir p e r s o n i n th is
10

s e a t th a t I d id th e c o r r e c t – I w a s c o r r e c t w h e n I to o k th a t d e c i s i o n . I
m e a n C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n y o u d e s tr o y s c h o o ls w h e r e o u r c h il d r e n g o i n g
t o – t h e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o b e a b le t o b e i n th e s c h o o l e s p e c ia ll y w h e n
w e k n o w t h e r e is u n e m p lo y m e n t , t h e r e i s a ls o s h o r t a g e o f r e s o u r c e s f o r
the

same

issues

that

we

are

d e a li n g

with

e d u c a ti o n a l

is s u e s

C h a ir p e r s o n , s o I t h i n k f o r m e , I f o ll o w t h i s C h a i r p e r s o n , I m a y b e
w r o n g b u t I f o ll o w w h a t t h e A c t s a y s a n I s t il l b e li e v e I w a s c o r r e c t
C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o , n o I th i n k – I d o n ’ t k n o w o f a n y b o d y w h o w o u l d

n o t a g r e e w i t h y o u t h a t t h e d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r t y, w h e t h e r i t’s p u b lic
20

p r o p e r ty o r p r i v a t e p r o p e r t y d u r i n g p r o te s t s i s c o m p le t e l y u n a c c e p t a b l e .
I c e r ta i n ly a g r e e w i t h th a t p a r t o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g , it ’s u n a c c e p t a b l e
b u t r e m e m b e r t h a t t h i s s t a t e m e n t , w h il e c o n d e m n i n g t h e d e s tr u c ti o n o f
p r o p e r ty a n d t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ty d u r i n g p r o te s ts i t s a y s – I t h i n k w e
agreed, it says,
“ S A B C w i ll n o lo n g e r s h o w v is u a ls o f t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ty ” ,

Page 42 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
S o th e r e is th a t p a r t b u t I w a n t t o l o o k t o t w o o r o t h e r p a r ts
a n d a ft e r t h a t y o u c a n i n d ic a t e w h e th e r t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g e ls e t h a t
w o u ld m a k e y o u s a y a l t h o u g h th o s e p a r a g r a p h s t h a t y o u h a v e r e a d
C h a ir, s e e m t o s a y w e a r e n o t g o i n g to s h o w t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ty,
a c t u a ll y w h e n y o u r e a d th e o t h e r p a r ts , t h e s e o th e r p a r t s t h e y c h a n g e
t h e p ic t u r e t o s a y t h e m e s s a g e w a s d i ff e r e n t o k a y, a lr i g h t .

Now the

t h ir d p a r a g r a p h o n p a g e 8 4 r e a d s ,
“ T h e S A B C ’s C h i e f O p e r a t i o n s O ff ic e r Mr H l a u d i M o t s o e n e n g
s t a te d t h a t a n d i t q u o t e s , i t is r e g r e t t a b l e th a t th e s e a c t io n s
10

a r e d is r u p ti n g m a n y l iv e a n d a s a r e s p o n s i b l e p u b lic i n s ti t u ti o n
w e w il l n o t a s s i s t t h e s e in d i v i d u a ls t o p u s h t h e ir a g e n d a th a t
s e e k s m e d ia a t t e n t io n . As a p u b li c s e r v ic e b r o a d c a s te r w e
h a v e a m a n d a te t o e d u c a t e t h e c i t iz e n s a n d w e t h e r e fo r e h a v e
t a k e n t h i s b o l d d e c is io n t o s h o w th a t v io l e n t p r o t e s ts a r e n o t
n e c e s s a r y. W e w o u l d l ik e t o e n c o u r a g e c it iz e n s t o p r o t e s t
p e a c e f u l ly w i t h o u t d e s tr o y in g t h e v e r y s a m e in s ti t u t i o n s th a t
a r e n e e d e d t o r e s t o r e t h e ir d i g n i ty ” .
N o w a s I r e a d t h is p a r a g r a p h th a t I’ v e j u s t r e a d i t s e e ms t o
s i m p l y n o l o n g e r n o w t a l k a b o u t s h o w in g o f v is u a ls it s i m p ly s e e m s t o

20

c r i ti c is e a n d c o n d e m n th e d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty, th e b u r n i n g o f
p r o p e r ty t h a t t h is is u n a c c e p ta b l e a n d a s

I s a i d a s f a r a s t h a t is

c o n c e r n e d , I d o n ’ t k n o w o f a n y b o d y w h o w o u ld n o t a g r e e w i t h s a y i n g
t h e d e s tr u c t io n o f p r o p e r ty a n d b u r n in g o f p r o p e r t y is u n a c c e p t a b l e b u t
I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u h a v e p i c k e d u p a n y th in g fr o m th is p a r a g r a p h
t h a t I ’v e r e a d n o w, w h ic h c h a n g e s t h e m e s s a g e fr o m s a y i n g w e a r e n o t

Page 43 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
g o i n g , a s S A B C , g o i n g t o s h o w v is u a l s o f t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ti e s ?
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG:

Chairperson it changes

b e c a u s e w h a t w e a r e s a y i n g w e a r e ju s t c o n d e m n i n g t h is b u r n i n g o f
fi g u r e s b e c a u s e p e o p l e a l s o s h o u l d th i n k t h a t w e a r e a ls o p a r t o f S o u t h
A fr ic a , I a m a c i t iz e n h e r e s o I w i ll a l s o h a v e m y o w n v i e w s t h a t w il l
t h i n k t h a t t h e s e v ie w s r e a lly, w h a t is h a p p e n i n g ,
J u s t ic e

t h in k e v e n C h i e f

M o g o e n g M o g o e n g , d e p u ty C h i e f J u s t ic e h e c o n d e m n e d t h is

d u r i n g t h e f a r e w e ll o f d e p u ty C h i e f J u s tic e D ik g a n g M o s e n e k e , h e w a s
e v e n v o c a l t h a n m e s o I d o n ’ t w a n t t o s a y n o w … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll i f i t m e a n s a n y t h i n g , I c a n te ll y o u t h a t I

c o n d e m n t h e d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty a n d a ll v i o l e n c e th a t w e s e e i n o u r
c o u n tr y a t d i ffe r e n t t i m e s w h e n t h e r e a r e p r o te s ts , i t’s u n a c c e p t a b l e
a n d i t d o e s n ’ t d e fi n e u s , t h a t is n o t w h o w e a r e a s S o u th A f r i c a n s s o –
a n d I b e li e v e th a t m o s t p e o p le w i ll a g r e e w i t h t h a t , s o t h a t p a r t is n o t
c o n tr o v e r s i a l, I t h i n k . S o to th e e x t e n t t h a t t h i s p a r a g r a p h th a t I ’v e ju s t
r e a d , c o n d e m n s t h e d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty, I t h i n k is n o n - c o n t e n ti o u s
b u t I d o n ’ t th i n k , a n d I ’ m g iv i n g y o u a c h a n c e t o s a y s o m e th i n g i f y o u
d o n ’t a g r e e , I d o n ’ t t h i n k i t c a n c e ls w h a t I ’v e r e a d b e fo r e in t h e
p r e v i o u s p a r a g r a p h s w h ic h s a y s a s S A B C w e a r e n o t g o in g t o s h o w
20

v is u a ls o f t h e b u r n in g o f p r o p e r ti e s , d o y o u w a n t to s a y a n y th in g o n
t h a t u n d e r s t a n d in g o n m y p a r t ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m w i th y o u .

Ye s .

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir p e r s o n

is t h e s a m e .

Page 44 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t a s I s a i d w h a t i n fo r m e d t h a t
paragraph is because people now they were marching to the SABC, we
w e r e tr y i n g t o f in d a w a y o f d is c o u r a g in g t h e m b e c a u s e n o w f o r t h e m t o
b u r n , i t w a s n o w a n o r m t h a t th e y w il l r u s h t o S A B C a n d e v e n d e m a n d
t h a t w e w il l s h o w t h e v is u a ls .

I th i n k w e d i d i t i n g o o f f a it h b u t y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g , C h a ir p e r s o n w i ll s ti ll b e m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g b u t I w ill a l s o
w a n t t o j u s t if y C h a ir p e r s o n a ft e r S o p h i e a n d N o n ta n d o c a m e to m e I
v e r i fi e d t h e s e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I t h i n k A d v o c a t e N o r m a n a s k e d
10

m e a b o u t w h e th e r – i f I ’ m c o r r e c t , w h e t h e r w e d i d c o m m u n i c a t e w i t h
s t a ff a b o u t s u c h d e c is i o n s . A s t h e C O O I c o m m u n ic a te w i th p e o p le w h o
r e p o r t s to m e s o I’ m e x p e c t in g t h e m t o g o a n d c o m m u n ic a t e w i t h p e o p l e
t o th e m C h a i r p e r s o n .

I b e l ie v e t h a t th e y d id c o m m u n ic a t e fr o m t h a t

a n g le C h a ir p e r s o n , th a t i s m y v i e w C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

T h e la s t o n e C h a i r p e r s o n , a n d

f o r g iv e m e o n t h is o n e b e c a u s e it ju s t c o m e i n to m y m in d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i s i t s ti ll o n t h e s t a te m e n t b e c a u s e I ’ m a b o u t t o

fi n i s h w it h th e s t a te m e n t t h e n w e m o v e o n t o s o m e t h in g e ls e .
20

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n i f I le a v e t h i s o n e

C h a ir p e r s o n … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Say it ja.

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n m y c o u n s e l

w a s d e a l i n g w it h t h e is s u e o f t h e – t h a t f o r m . W h a t I w a n t t o c l a r i fy
C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e r e is n o d i s p u t e a b o u t t h a t f o r t h a t I w r o t e s t a n d a r d 1 0 ,

Page 45 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h e d is p u te b e t w e e n m e a n d P u b li c P r o te c t o r, w h a t I ’ m - w h a t I
d is a g r e e w i t h h e r is w h e n s h e s a y s I w a s e m p lo y e d a t t h e S A B C
b e c a u s e I m i s l e d t h e S A B C , t h a t is w h e r e t h e d is p u t e it . I s a i d s h e w a s
wrong because I was not employed

b e c a u s e o f th a t f o r m t h a t

I … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Because of that form.

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k - y e s C h a ir p e r s o n .

B e c a u s e y o u h a d a lr e a d y b e e n e m p lo y e d b y t h e ti m e

y o u f il le d t h e f o r m ?
10

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
CHAIRPERSON:
MR

H LA U D I

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

T h a t ’s y o u r p o in t ?

GEORGE

MOTSOENENG:

Ye s

th a t

is

my

point

C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I s a id I d i d n o t li e w h e n I w a s e m p l o y e d , t h a t is t h e
is s u e , b u t t h e

f o r m C h a ir p e r s o n , I t h i n k

we

are

in

agreement

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e a r e i n a g r e e m e n t w i th t h a t ja .

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

S o m e t i m e s I d i ff e r w i th m y

c o u n s e l C h a ir p e r s o n a n d h e ’s h e r e t o g u id e m e a n d a d v is e m e
C h a ir p e r s o n , a n d I to ld h i m C h a ir p e r s o n I’ m n o t h e r e to d e fe n d o r t o d o
20

w h a t e v e r, I ’ m h e r e j u s t t o t e l l th e tr u t h , r ig h t o r w r o n g a n d h e k n o w s
C h a ir p e r s o n [i n d is t in c t] b e c a u s e h e ’s h e r e C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e I a m in
C o u r t o n o th e r m a t t e r s s o t h a t h e c a n p r o t e c t m e o n th o s e is s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s O k a y n o t h a t ’s fi n e .

J u s t t o c o m p l e te th e

s t a te m e n t , th e l a s t p a r t t h a t – o f t h e s t a t e m e n t s a y s ,
“ T h e S A B C w o u l d li k e t o m a k e a n a p p e a l to o th e r S o u th

Page 46 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A fr ic a n b r o a d c a s t e r s a n d t h e p r i n t m e d ia t o s t a n d i n s o l id a r i ty
w i t h t h e p u b li c b r o a d c a s te r, n o t to c o v e r th e v i o le n t p r o t e s ts
t h a t a r e o n t h e r i s e a n d in t e n d d e s tr o y i n g p u b lic in s ti t u t i o n s ” ,
S o I t h i n k I’ v e n o w r e a d a l m o s t t h e w h o l e s t a t e m e n t , I t h in k
the whole statement and I think you and I are bound to agree that the
u n d e r s t a n d in g w h ic h I ’v e b e e n t a l k i n g a b o u t i s c o r r e c t b u t i t m a y b e
t h a t y o u e x p la in e d – w h e n y o u e x p l a in e d a f te r w a r d s , y o u m i g h t h a v e
e x p l a i n e d in a d i ff e r e n t w a y, is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , M is s N o r m a n d o y o u w a n t t o ta k e it fr o m t h e r e ?

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir, i t ’s q u a r t e r p a s t

e l e v e n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h y e s , m a y b e b e fo r e w e t a k e th e t e a b r e a k – o r

m a y b e l e t ’s t a k e t h e t e a b r e a k a n d th e n w i ll c o m e b a c k . W e w ill t a k e
the tea break and resume at half past…[intervenes].
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Eleven.

N o I t h i n k I h a v e r e a s o n to i n c r e a s e o u r t e a b r e a k

le t ’s s a y t w e n ty fi v e t o t w e lv e , w e ’l l r e s u m e a t tw e n ty fiv e to t w e lv e , w e
adjourn.
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
REGISTRAR:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry I have taken longer because of other

c o m m i s s io n d e m a n d s . S o I s h o u ld h a v e b e e n b a c k s e v e n m in u t e s a g o .

Page 47 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
I a m s o r r y a b o u t t h a t . M a y b e b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d le t u s fi n a l is e th is p a r t
M r M o ts o e n e n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e I th in k i t is a n i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f – o f m a t t e r s
r e l a ti n g t o th e S A B C .

R e l a ti n g t o th e d e c is io n o r t h e s t a t e m e n t w h a t

t h e y – w h a t I t h i n k t h e S A B C 8 e n d e d u p c a l li n g t h e p o l ic y I th i n k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Fr o m – fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d I g a in e d t h e

i m p r e s s io n a n d y o u m u s t t e l l m e i f I a m r i g h t – I g a i n e d t h e i m p r e s s i o n
10

t h a t y o u d o n o t b e li e v e a s y o u s i t t h e r e t h a t S A B C s h o u l d h a v e m a d e
a n y d e c is i o n to b a n t h e s h o w i n g o f v i s u a l s o f t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ti e s
d u r i n g p r o te s ts p e r s e .

W h a t y o u w e r e o p p o s e d to w a s th e S A B C o r

S A B – t h e S A B C c o m p ly in g w i t h r e q u e s ts o r d e m a n d s f r o m s o m e p e o p l e
w h e n th e y s a y w e a r e g o i n g to b e b u r n in g p r o p e r ty c o m e a n d s h o w u s
b u r n in g p r o p e r ty. A m I c o r r e c t , i s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir. B u t a ls o
g o i n g b a c k a l i tt l e b i t .

A s I s a i d e a r li e r t h e Br o a d c a s ti n g A c t I m e a n

t a lk s a b o u t g l a m o u r iz i n g v i o l e n c e s o t h is – a l l t h is i n fo r m a ti o n in f o r m
m y d e c is io n to c o m e t o t h a t c o n c l u s io n C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm;
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t w e d i d n o t r e a ll y b a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n w e d id n o t

r e a l ly b a n C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A m I r i g h t t o t h i n k th a t i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n

Page 48 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
w r o n g to b a n t h e s h o w i n g o f v i s u a ls o f a n y t h in g o f t h e b u r n i n g o f
p r o p e r ty to t h e p r o t e s t s ? A m I c o r r e c t i n t a k i n g t h a t – t h e v i e w t h a t i t
w o u ld h a v e b e e n w r o n g a n d is t h a t a v ie w t h a t y o u s h a r e ? T h e b u r n i n g
p e r s e , t h e s h o w i n g o f v is u a ls , b u r n in g th e p r o p e r ty.
MR

H LA U D I

GEORGE

MOTSOENENG:

Yo u

know

C h a ir p e r s o n

s o m e t i m e s w h e n y o u r e s p e c t s o m e o n e lik e m a y b e y o u r f a th e r f o r
example.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:
10

E v e n if y o u d i s a g r e e .

It is

d i ff ic u l t . B u t C h a ir – i t is a d i ffi c u l t o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a d i ff ic u l t o n e .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

Ye s C h a ir b u t le t m e tr y t o

e x p l a i n C h a ir p e r s o n . I n m y
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I n y o u r o w n w o r d s .
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

I n m y v ie w

C h a ir p e r s o n i t is u n la w f u l .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I m e a n I fo ll o w w h a t t h e l a w

s a y s . I a m s ti ll s a y i n g t o d a y b u r n i n g p r o p e r ty w h e t h e r p r iv a t e o r p u b li c
20

it is u n la w f u l C h a ir p e r s o n I w il l s u b m i t th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

A n d w e a g r e e d o n th a t .

Ja but remember my

q u e s t io n n o w is o n t h e s h o w in g o f t h e v is u a ls o f th e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ty
d u r i n g v i o l e n t p r o te s ts w h e th e r …
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 49 of 177

M a y b e to e x p l a in t o th a t

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG:
C h a ir.

Yo u s h o w th e v is u a l s .

F o r m e i t is t h e s a m e t h i n g

What are you showing?

Yo u s h o w t h e

b u r n in g w h ic h i s u n l a w fu l . Ye s C h a ir I w il l s u b m i t t h a t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t is t h e s h o w i n g o f t h e v is u a l s s o t h a t t h e p u b l ic

c a n s e e w h a t is w r o n g i n o u r c o u n tr y i s s h o w i n g t h o s e v is u a ls u n la w f u l
o n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e h o w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?
10

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t d e p e n d s t h e h o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. E la b o r a t e .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n .

T h e h o w is

C h a ir l ik e I s a i d y o u – y o u – l e t u s s a y t e l e v i s i o n th is i s l i fe . I f p e o p l e
b u r n t h is b u il d in g w e a r e i n s id e a n d t h e n t h e y s h o w t h i s v is u a ls i t w i ll
b e u n la w f u l b u t if s o m e o n e m a y b e c o m e i n a n d y o u k n o w th a t t h e r e a r e
n o p e o p le in s i d e i t is n o t u n l a w f u l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, O k a y.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w a s [i n d is t in c t ] C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B a s e d o n th a t I t a k e y o u t o m e a n t h a t s i m p l y s h o w i n g
20

v is u a ls o f b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r t y d u r in g p r o te s t s o n i t s o w n i t i s n o t
unlawful?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y. A n d y o u s a y y o u – i n y o u r o w n m i n d y o u

s a y y o u w e r e n o t i n t e n d i n g th r o u g h t h e d e c is io n t h a t y o u to o k y o u w e r e
n o t in t e n d i n g t o b a n th e m e r e s h o w i n g o f v i s u a ls o f t h e b u r n i n g o f

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
p r o p e r ty a s s u c h . Is th a t r i g h t ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s . I t w a s c e r ta i n – w h e n t h e – w h e n t h e
v is u a ls s h o w t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ty i n c e r t a i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s t h a t is
w h e r e th e p r o b le m w a s a s fa r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d w h e n c e r ta i n
people start saying SABC come and show us we are going to burn
p r o p e r ty. O r w h e n m a y b e t h e r e a r e p e o p l e i n s id e t h e b u i ld in g t h a t is
b e i n g b u r n e d t h a t is t h e k i n d o f s i t u a ti o n y o u h a d a p r o b l e m w i th .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Th is is e x a c t ly w h a t I e x p l a i n e d
10

C h a ir p e r s o n to N o th a n d o M a s e k o a n d S o p h i e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MO TSO ENENG:

W h e n t h e y w e r e c o m in g t o

v e r i fy t h is i s s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u – d o y o u w a n t to …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t t o p r o c e e d o n t h a t C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. T h a n k y o u .

Mr Motsoeneng if somebody comes to the SABC and say please cover
t h is I a m g o in g to b u r n a b u il d i n g . T h a t i s u n l a w f u l , t h e a c t s a y s y o u

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
c a n n o t p a r t ic i p a te in a n u n l a w fu l a c t, a m I r ig h t ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o y o u d o n o t n e e d a d ir e c tiv e f o r t h a t . A
s i m p l e n o w e w il l n o t c o m e w e w i ll n o t c o v e r i t w o u l d s u ffi c e ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Good. Now these – were you aware that
t h e s e w e r e s e r v i c e d e li v e r y p r o t e s ts ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I was aware.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e s e p r o te s t s a c c o r d i n g t o y o u
10

a n d t h e n o t e t h a t y o u s e n t d o e s n o t d i s ti n g u is h w h ic h p r o te s ts m u s t b e
c o v e r e d o r w h ic h p r o t e s ts m u s t n o t b e c o v e r e d a s y o u h a v e i n d ic a t e d t o
t h e C h a i r p e r s o n . T h a t y o u h a d t h e h o u s e h o w t h is i s g o i n g to b e d o n e
is w h a t y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i t h b u t t h i s y o u w o u l d a g r e e d o e s n o t m a k e
t h a t d is t in c ti o n ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w ill d i s a g r e e .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t w h e r e d o e s i t m a k e it ? W h e r e d o e s i t
– w h e r e d o e s i t d e fi n e th e b a n o f v i o l e n t p r o t e s ts t h a t y o u w a n t e d t o
a c t u a ll y b a n ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k C h a ir e a r li e r I d i d a l lu d e

20

t o t h e i s s u e t h a t p e o p le w e r e c a l li n g u s . A n d s o m e ti m e s C h a i r p e r s o n I
a m a c i tiz e n . I k n o w i n t h e a r e a th e s a m e s o c a ll e d c o m r a d e s b e c a u s e
t h e y a r e u n h a p p y w i t h i n th e m s e lv e s t h e y m o b i li s e t h e s e p e o p l e to g o
a n d d o t h i s i s s u e s . E v e n w h e n y o u a s k t h e m t h e y w il l te ll y o u . I m e a n
if y o u k n o w t h e r e a l it y I m e a n t h a t w il l i n f o r m y o u a ll t h is is s u e s . W e
c a n s a y p r o t e s t b u t a ls o w e m u s t b e h o n e s t . W h a t – w h a t is t h e c a u s e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
o f t h i s p r o t e s t?

S o s o m e o f u s w h o d e a l w i t h c o m m u n i ty d a ily

s o m e t i m e s w e k n o w w h a t in f o r m s th is d e c i s io n C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u . B u t th e n i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t n o t
o n ly d o y o u s a y y o u w a n t t o – n o t to c o v e r v i o l e n t p r o t e s t s b u t y o u g o
b e y o n d th a t .
agendas.

Yo u id e n ti fy t h a t t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n p e o p l e w h o h a v e

S o i t is n o t s i m p l y a s t a te m e n t o f y o u s a y in g I w a n t t o

c a u ti o n m y jo u r n a l is ts n o t t o c o v e r th e s e in s t a n c e s b u t i t g o e s b e y o n d
t h a t b e c a u s e n o w y o u a r e in a s it u a ti o n – y o u a c t u a l ly s a y t h a t w e w il l
n o t a s s is t t h e s e i n d i v i d u a ls t o p u s h t h e ir a g e n d a s t h a t s e e k m e d ia
10

a tt e n ti o n .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

B e c a u s e I k n o w t h e ir a g e n d a .

B e c a u s e t h e y t a l k t o m e th e s e p e o p le .

W h e n th e y c o m e C h a ir p e r s o n

d e m a n d i n g th is c o v e r a g e t h e y ta lk a b o u t n o y o u h a v e c o v e r e d t h a t o n e ,
t h a t p r o v in c e , t h a t p r o v i n c e , t h a t a r e a . C h a ir p e r s o n I w a n t t o r e p e a t in
S o u th A f r ic a t h e r e a r e i s s u e s t h a t w e s h a l l c o n d e m n fr o m th e o n s e t .
T h i s i s o n e o f th e is s u e s th a t w e s h o u l d c o n d e m n b e c a u s e w e c a n n o t
b u il d m o n s t e r s i n o u r s o c i e t y. W e n e e d C h a ir p e r s o n r o le m o d e l. S o I
w i ll d i e w i th t h i s s ta t e m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I a m d o i n g th is w i t h d u e
r e s p e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e n i n y o u r b e li e f th a t y o u h a v e to

c o n d e m n th is I t h i n k y o u – y o u w e r e n o t g o v e r n m e n t . T h e s e p r o te s t s
were not against the SABC.

T h e s e w e r e s e r v ic e p r o t e s ts – s e r v i c e

d e li v e r y p r o te s t s t h a t w e r e d ir e c t e d a t g o v e r n m e n t a n d y o u a r e n o t
g o v e r n m e n t . T h e S A B C w a s n o t g o v e r n m e n t a t th a t p o in t .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

C h a ir m y s u b m is s i o n is w e a ll

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
c i tiz e n s . G o v e r n m e n t i s u s , w e a r e g o v e r n m e n t a s c i t iz e n s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: No but then Mr Motsoeneng I just want to
understand.

How do you then use your powers as the COO of the

SABC a broadcaster – how do you use those powers to deal with
m a t t e r s t h a t a ffe c t g o v e r n m e n t ? I f s o m e b o d y – i f t h e s e p e o p l e w h o a r e
p r o t e s t in g b e c a u s e t h e y n e e d e d w a te r, e le c t r ic i ty y o u k n e w th a t t h e
S A B C d o e s n o t p r o v i d e t h a t . N o w th e r e is n o t a s i n g le s e n t e n c e i n th is
s t a te m e n t

th a t

says

there

are

these

v io le n t

p r o t e s ts

we

urge

g o v e r n m e n t to p l e a s e h a n d l e t h is m a t te r o r h e l p p e o p le s o t h a t t h is c a n
10

b e a v o i d e d . A ll y o u d o i n g r e a ll y is t o c o n d e m n th e p r o t e s ts a n d t h e n
y o u s a y i n t h e la s t s e n t e n c e t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a s r e a d t o y o u . T h e
S A B C w o u ld l ik e to m a k e a n a p p e a l t o o th e r b r o a d c a s t e r s a n d p r i n t
m e d i a t o s t a n d i n s o l i d a r i ty w it h t h e P u b li c B r o a d c a s t e r n o t t o c o v e r th e
v io l e n t p r o te s t s th a t a r e o n th e r is e a n d i n t e n d d e s tr o y in g p u b lic
in s t i tu t io n s . S o y o u h a d m o v e d a w a y fr o m b e in g a b r o a d c a s t e r a n d y o u
d e c i d e d w e a r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i th t h is m a t t e r a n d n o w h e r e in y o u r
s t a te m e n t d o y o u c a l l u p o n g o v e r n m e n t t o a c t u a ll y h a n d le t h is m a t t e r.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n I w il l s u b m i t I

f o ll o w t h e la w. T h i s is w h a t I w ill s u b m i t C h a ir p e r s o n a n d i n th e i s s u e o f
20

– I m e a n it is a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r. I d o n o t n e e d t o a s k g o v e r n m e n t . I
do not need to do that.

I m e a n I a m p u b li c b r o a d c a s t e r t h e r e is

m a n d a t in g to c o v e r g o v e r n m e n t , to c o v e r w h a t e v e r th a t w e m u s t c o v e r.
S o I d o n o t n e e d t o g o a n d t e l l g o v e r n m e n t.

L e t th e m ta k e

r e s p o n s i b i li ty t o d e a l w i t h t h e is s u e s . T h a t i s n o t my is s u e t o d e a l w it h .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

N o t h e is s u e is n o t y o u te ll in g th e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
p e o p l e . Th e is s u e is y o u c h a n g i n g th e m a n d a t e o f t h e S A B C t o s a y t o
t h e S A B C j o u r n a li s t s d o n o t c o v e r v io l e n t p r o te s ts . T h a t i s t h e is s u e .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I w il l s u b m i t C h a ir th a t

s e n te n c e is w r o n g . B e c a u s e I h a v e a l r e a d y e x p la in e d I h a v e n e v e r s a i d
t h e y s h o u ld n o t c o v e r t h is p r o te s t. S o I w i ll s u b m i t t h a t I s ti ll s tic k o n
t h e is s u e s th a t I r e f e r r e d t o e a r li e r.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e l e t m e c o m e i n a t t h is s ta g e . Ar e y o u a b l e to
s a y a s y o u s i t t h e r e t h a t to t h e e x t e n t t h a t th is s t a te m e n t th a t w a s
10

is s u e d b y th e S A B C m a y b e r e a d t o m e a n y o u w e r e s a y i n g v i o le n t
protests must not be covered or may be read to mean the burning of
p r o p e r ty – t h e v is u a ls r e l a ti n g t o t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ty d u r in g
p r o t e s t s s h o u l d n o t b e s h o w n it w a s w r o n g .

I n o th e r w o r d s t o th e

e x t e n t t h a t i t c a n b e r e a d t o m e a n t h a t w o u l d y o u b e a b le t o s a y n o , n o ,
n o , t o t h a t e x t e n t t h a t i t m u s t b e s a i d to h a v e b e e n w r o n g .
MR

HLAUDI

GEORGE

MOTSOEN ENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n

burning

p r o p e r ty.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: It is wrong.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: It is unlawful.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: According to the act.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . H m . W e l o n g a g r e e d o n th a t y o u r e m e m b e r.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.

Page 55 of 177

of

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

I t i s – w h a t I a m s a y in g is – y o u – r e m e m b e r

y o u is s u e d a s t a t e m e n t t o t h e p u b l ic .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e p u b li c is e n ti t le d t o r e a d t h a t s t a t e m e n t a n d

u n d e r s t a n d i t w h a t i t m e a n s . T h e S A B C j o u r n a l is ts t h e ms e lv e s s h o u l d
b e a b l e to r e a d t h a t s t a t e m e n t s a y t h i s is w h a t i t m e a n s . I t s a y s I m u s t
n o t d o t h is , I m u s t n o t d o t h a t , I m u s t n o t d o th a t . N o w th a t m a y o r m a y
n o t r e fl e c t w h a t y o u m a y h a v e i n te n d e d b u t w h e n t h e y r e a d it t h e y
w o u ld u n d e r s t a n d i t a c e r t a i n w a y. M a y b e s u b s e q u e n t ly t h e r e m i g h t b e
10

c la r i fi c a t io n w h ic h g i v e s th e m a d i ff e r e n t p ic tu r e I a m n o t s u r e . B u t l e t
u s ta lk a b o u t s o m e b o d y w h o p ic k s i t u p a n d r e a d s i t . S o I a m s a y in g
a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y i n s o fa r a s th is s t a t e m e n t c a n b e s a id to h a v e s a id
t o t h e j o u r n a lis t s d o n o t c o v e r t h e b u r n in g o f p r o p e r ty d u r i n g p r o t e s ts
t h e n th a t p a r t w a s w r o n g .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n I w i ll s u b m i t t h a t in
m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h a t s t a te m e n t . My u n d e r s t a n d i n g is w e w i ll c o v e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG: W here the people are going to
b u r n b u t w e w il l n o t s h o w.

20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : L ik e I h a v e a lr e a d y a l lu d e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG:

T h e p h y s i c a li ty o f th e – th e

b u r n in g b e c a u s e o f s o m e r e a s o n s th a t I w i ll – I w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t .
C h a ir p e r s o n l e t m e g iv e y o u e x a m p le .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: In the past you can cover it.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

In t h e p a s t b e c a u s e te l e v i s i o n

w a s n o t l iv e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C u r r e n tly t e l e v is i o n i s li v e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:
10

Which means if you cover –

b e c a u s e w h e n y o u c o v e r i t is j u s t th e v i s u a ls . M a y b e e v e n th e p o lic e
c a n c o m e a n d lo o k f o r t h o s e m a t e r i a l s . W h a t I a m s a y in g C h a ir p e r s o n
w h e n th e j o u r n a lis t s g o t h e r e t h e y c a n c o v e r i t , h a v e th e r e c o r d s b u t
n o t s h o w th o s e p ic t u r e s b e c a u s e t h e a c t s a y s d o n o t g la m o u r iz e
v io l e n c e . Yo u w i ll s h o w b u t r e s p o n s ib ly s o C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll t h a t s e e m s to b e a li t tl e d i ff e r e n t f r o m w h a t I

t h o u g h t w e h a d a c h i e v e d in te r ms o f u n d e r s t a n d i n g a n d m a y b e
u n d e r s t a n d – m y u n d e r s t a n d in g s o fa r h a s b e e n t h a t w h a t y o u a r e
s a y in g is y o u n e v e r in t e n d e d th a t v is u a ls o f t h e – t h e m e r e v i s u a ls o r
t h e m e r e s h o w i n g o f v is u a ls o f t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ty d u r i n g p r o t e s ts
20

s h o u l d n o t b e s h o w n o n t e l e v is i o n . M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g i s t h a t y o u w e r e
s a y in g y o u n e v e r i n t e n d e d t o s a y th a t , n u m b e r 1 .
2.

Yo u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f t h is s t a t e m e n t is t h a t w e l l c e r ta in p a r ts w e

r e a c h e d a s th e s a m e u n d e r s t a n d in g b u t m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t y o u
w e r e s a y i n g y o u n e v e r in t e n d e d t o s a y v is u a l s o f th e b u r n i n g o f
p r o p e r ty s h o u l d n o t b e s h o w n p e r s e .

Yo u r d i ff ic u l ty w a s o t h e r i s s u e s

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
c o n n e c t e d w i th t h a t .
1 . I f p e o p l e a r e i n s id e t h e b u i ld in g o r i f p e o p l e a r e t r y i n g to g e t o u t
t h e y g o t c a u g h t o u t i n t h e f ir e .
Or if people say in advance to SA BC come and show us we are going to
b u r n p r o p e r t y. T h a t i s my u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g y o u w e r e
n o t i n t e n d i n g t o s a y v i s u a l s o f t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r ty p e r s e s h o u ld n o t
be shown.
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

C h a ir p e r s o n 1 0 0 % I a m w i th

you.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

T h e o n ly is s u e I th i n k h e r e is

E n g l is h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

Yo u k n o w A d v o c a t e w a n t to

c a tc h m e w i th s o m e th in g t h a t I h a v e a lr e a d y a ll u d e d t o b u t I d o – I
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t h e is j u s t d o i n g h e r w o r k s o I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m
with it Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:
20

A l m o s t I m u s t s ti c k t o b u t I

t h i n k i t i s E n g li s h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MO TSO ENENG:

E s p e c i a l ly n o t fr o m h e r s i d e

m a y b e fr o m m y s i d e C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG:

But I agree with you what you

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
are saying.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. S o w h e n y o u a g r e e t h e n
w i t h th e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e n i t m e a n s y o u w i ll a g r e e t h a t th a t s e n te n c e ,
s e c o n d s e n t e n c e in th e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h t h a t s a y s w e w i ll n o t c o v e r
p e o p l e w h o a r e d e s tr o y i n g p u b li c p r o p e r ty. I f y o u a g r e e th e n w it h w h a t
t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h a s p u t t o y o u t h e n i t m e a n s t h a t y o u a r e a g r e e t h a t
t h is p a r t o f t h e i n s tr u c ti o n t o – s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n m a d e . I t w a s – i t
w a s c o n tr a r y t o t h e p o l ic y o f t h e S A B C .
10

B e c a u s e y o u a r e n o t t a lk i n g

a b o u t v i s u a l s y o u s i m p ly s a y in g d o n o t c o v e r p u b lic p r o te s ts w h e r e
t h e r e i s d e s tr u c t io n o f p r o p e r t y.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t C h a ir m a n I w i ll s u b m i t th a t
w e s h a l l n o t b e s e l e c ti v e . W e s h a ll r e a d t h e w h o le s t a te m e n t . S o b y
r e a d in g th e w h o l e s t a t e m e n t y o u w i ll c o m e t o c o n c lu s i o n t o u n d e r s t a n d
w h a t I – w h a t w e m e a n t a n d e v e n a f te r I e x p l a in e d it t o t h e S A B C s t a ff
w h a t I m e a n t I e x p la i n i t t o t h e p u b li c d u r i n g t h o s e d e b a t e s o n t h e
m a t t e r C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f c o u r s e e a r l ie r o n w e w e n t th r o u g h t h e w h o l e o f i t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s .

20

CHAIRPERSON: So you remember that.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: The two of us at least.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Page 59 of 177

C h a ir m a y b e – l e t m e

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
move forward. We have…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o . t h a t …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o w c o u l d y o u ju s t te ll th e C h a ir p e r s o n

t h e n i f t h e n a jo u r n a l is t g o e s o u t, c o v e r s t h e v io l e n t p r o t e s ts a n d t h o s e
f o o t a g e s a r e s h o w n w h a t w e r e th e c o n s e q u e n c e s ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

T h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f th a t I

cannot say the consequence because there was no consequences.
W h a t w e a r e s a y i n g C h a i r p e r s o n w e ju s t s a i d p e o p le s h a ll b e
r e s p o n s i b l e b u t i f y o u h a v e b e e n g iv e n d i r e c ti v e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y M r M o t s o e n e n g . I k n o w I a m
in t e r r u p t in g y o u i n t h e m id d l e o f a s e n te n c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Ms Norman.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to say something to Mr Motsoeneng before
w e m o v e t o th a t p a r t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To t h i s – y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I j u s t w a n t t o s a y t o th e e x te n t th a t y o u s a y t h a t in

m a k i n g t h i s d e c is i o n y o u d i d n o t in t e n d t o b a n s o to s p e a k th e s h o w i n g
20

o f v i s u a ls o f t h e b u r n i n g o f p r o p e r t y o r c o v e r i n g th e b u r n in g o f p r o p e r ty
t o th e e x t e n t t h a t y o u s a y th a t i s w h a t y o u r in t e n t i o n w a s . I t ju s t s e e m s
t o m e n o w t h a t y o u a n d I h a v e g o n e t h r o u g h t h e s t a te m e n t i t d o e s n o t –
it s e e m s t o m e t h a t t h e s ta t e m e n t s e e m s t o s a y s o m e t h i n g e ls e n a m e l y
d o n o t c o v e r t h e b u r n in g o f o r p r o p e r t y. W e m u s t n o t s h o w v is u a ls o f
t h e b u r n in g o f p r o p e r ty. T h a t i s t h e i m p r e s s i o n I g e t fr o m it . A n d y o u

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
k n o w e a r l ie r o n y o u a n d I w e n t s te p b y s t e p to s a y h e r e i s m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g a n d I t h i n k w e e n d e d u p h a v in g t h e s a m e u n d e r s t a n d i n g
o n w h a t th is s a y s . B u t y o u d i d s a y w h e r e y o u e x p l a i n e d i t a f t e r w a r d s to
jo u r n a li s ts a n d t o o t h e r p e o p l e . S o I ju s t w a n t m a k e t h a t p o in t a n d t h e n
a l lo w y o u t o c o m m e n t t h a t i t d o e s s e e m t h a t t h e s t a te m e n t m ig h t n o t b e
r e fl e c t in g w h a t y o u m i g h t – w h a t y o u s a y y o u in t e n d e d .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n I t h in k e a r l ie r w e

a g r e e . S o I w i ll s u b m i t t h a t t h a t a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n m e a n d y o u C h a ir
s t il l s ta n d s C h a i r p e r s o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s s t il l s ta n d s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s t a n d s j a .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I c a n n o t m o v e f r o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s fr o m t h a t a g r e e m e n t ja .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: What we have agreed upon.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

20

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

S o y o u w e r e g o i n g to

e x p l a i n w h a t c o n s e q u e n c e s w e r e t h e r e i f p e o p l e f a i le d t o c o m p l y w i t h
t h a t d ir e c t iv e .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
there cannot be consequence.
p e o p l e m u s t d i ff e r w i th y o u .

N o i f p e o p l e d i ffe r w i th y o u

I m e a n i t is n o r m a l C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t
I m e a n y o u s h o u l d a ll o w t h a t p e o p l e to

d i ff e r w i th y o u b u t y o u h a v e a r e s p o n s i b i li ty a s t h e a c c o u n t a b l e p e r s o n

Page 61 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
b u t i t d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t w h e n p e o p l e d i ff e r w i th y o u y o u c a n c h a s e
t h e m a w a y. Yo u c a n n o t d o th a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . C h a i r m a y I ju s t t a k e th e w i t n e s s to
p a g e 8 5 ? T h i s i s t h e n o ti c e o f s u s p e n s io n q u o t e d i n t h e L a b o u r c o u r t
ju d g m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l I t h i n k y o u c a n t a k e m e to p a g e 8 5 .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Oh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M o t s o e n e n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y e s b y th e w a y – b y th e w a y.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e – j u s t t e ll h i m , r e a d t o h i m w h a t y o u …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h a t is t h e r e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

J a h e w i ll d e a l w i t h it a n d i f h e n e e d s to l o o k a t

a n y th in g h e w i ll s a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir a t p a g e 8 5 o f t h e
L a b o u r C o u r t j u d g m e n t p a r a g r a p h 1 7 t h e c o u r t r e c o r d e d t h e f o l l o w in g :
“ T h r e e d a y s la t e r o n 2 3 J u n e 2 0 1 6 K r ig e , Ve n t e r a n d
G q u b u l e w e r e c a ll e d i n t o a m e e ti n g w i t h m a n a g e m e n t
and

i n fo r m e d

th a t

they

had

been

suspended.

D i s c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d in g s w e r e i n s ti t u te d a g a in s t a ll
20

three

e m p lo y e e s

and

r e m a in e d

pending.

The

s u s p e n s i o n n o tic e s o f 2 3 J u n e 2 0 1 6 a r e i d e n ti c a l i n
t h e ir t e r m s a n d s t a t e :

R e N o t ic e o f S u s p e n s i o n .

It

h a s c o m e to m a n a g e m e n t ’s a t te n ti o n t h a t y o u h a v e
a l le g e d ly

refused

t o c o m p ly

w i th

an

in s t r u c t i o n

p e r t a in in g t o t h e P r o v is i o n s o f t h e S A B C E d it o r ia l

Page 62 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
P o lic y a s w e l l a s t h e D ir e c t iv e n o t t o b r o a d c a s t
v is u a ls / a u d io o f t h e d e s tr u c t io n o f p r o p e r ty d u r i n g
p r o t e s t a c ti o n a n d th a t y o u d is t a n c e y o u r s e l f fr o m
the

in s tr u c ti o n .

The

above

alleged

o ff e n c e

c o n s ti t u te s a r e f u s a l a n d o r f a i lu r e t o c o m p ly w i t h a
reasonable

and

lawful

i n s tr u c ti o n

and

same

i m p a c ti n g n e g a ti v e ly o n th e d a y t o d a y b r o a d c a s t in g
o p e r a ti o n s .

P l e a s e b e a d v is e d t h a t m a n a g e m e n t

r e g a r d s t h e a ll e g e d o ff e n c e a s b e i n g o f a s e r i o u s
10

n a t u r e a n d is f u r t h e r m o r e r e s o lv e d t h a t th e p o te n ti a l
o f y o u r p r e s e n c e a t th e w o r k p la c e m a y in t e r fe r e w i t h
t h e in v e s t i g a t io n i n t o t h e m a t te r t h e r e f o r e a d e c is i o n
w a s t a k e n to s u s p e n d y o u r s e r v i c e s w i t h t h e S A B C
with

immediate

d is c i p l i n a r y a c t io n .
r e m u n e r a t io n .

e ffe c t

pending

i n s t it u ti o n

of

Yo u r s u s p e n s io n i s w i t h f u l l

Please hand in your SABC access

c a r d s , l a p to p s . ”
A n d th e n i t g o e s o n t o t e l l t h e m w h e n t h e d is c ip li n a r y – th e fu r t h e r
steps and then.
20

“ Yo u r s

f a i t h fu ll y

Simon

Thebele

A c ti n g

Group

E x e c u t iv e N e w s a n d C u r r e n t A ff a ir s . ”
T h e f ir s t q u e s ti o n d i d M r S i m o n T h e b e l e r e p o r t t o y o u ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

M a y b e C h a ir I s h o u l d e x p l a i n .

M r T h e b e l e w a s t h e G r o u p Ex e c u ti v e o f n e w s . T h e d ir e c t li n e i t is m e .
CHAIRPERSON: He reported to you?

Page 63 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : H e r e p o r te d t o y o u ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Th a n k y o u . A n d w e r e y o u a w a r e t h a t
t h e s e j o u r n a l is ts w e r e – i n w h a t e v e r c a p a c i ty t h e y w e r e h o l d i n g a t th e
ti m e w e r e s u s p e n d e d fo r h a v i n g fa il e d t o c o m p ly w i th t h e d ir e c tiv e t h a t
t h e C h a ir h a s t a k e n y o u th r o u g h p a r a g r a p h fo r p a r a g r a p h ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Th e in f o r m a ti o n C h a ir t h a t I g o t
fr o m S A B C t h e i n fo r m a ti o n w a s l e a k in g o f t h e in f o r m a ti o n o f t h e S A B C
10

n o t th e d is p u t e b e t w e e n m a n a g e m e n t a n d t h e m . A n d C h a ir p e r s o n I w i ll
r e fe r y o u t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I a m s o r r y j u s t r e p e a t th a t . I w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I
u n d e r s t a n d it .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t I h a v e g o t
C h a ir p e r s o n th e d is c i p l in a r y h e a r i n g it w a s b e c a u s e o f t h e d i s p u te t h a t
– n o n o t t h e d is p u t e C h a ir s o r r y n o t t h e d is p u te .

I t w a s b e c a u s e th e

jo u r n a li s ts t h e y l e a k i n fo r m a t i o n . T h e y s p o k e t o m e d i a w h e n th e p o lic y
o f t h e S A B C y o u a r e a l lo w e d t o t a l k t o m e d i a .
d i ff e r e n c e s w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e v is u a ls .
20

I t w a s n o t a b o u t t h e ir
Th e is s u e w a s le a k i n g

in f o r m a ti o n o r c o m m u n ic a ti n g p u b lic ly s o w i th th e m e d i a .

The same

w i t h m e I c o m m u n i c a t e d w i th m e d ia , I w a s c h a s e d a w a y.

I was

d is c i p l i n e d a n d th e S A B C g e t r i d o f m e . T h e s a m e S A B C d i d t h a t b u t
t h e c o u r t r u l e i n t h e ir f a v o u r. S o – b u t i t w a s n o t th e v is u a ls . I t h a s
n o t h i n g t o d o w it h t h e v is u a ls .

B u t a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n e la b o r a t e

t h a t r e a ll y I w il l r e f e r th e A d v o c a t e t o m y a ff id a v i t a n d I w il l s ta n d b y

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h a t – m y a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e e v e n i n th a t a ffi d a v it I e x p l a i n e d I w a s n o t
in v o lv e d .

E v e n t h e f i n d in g o f t h e c o u r t C h a ir p e r s o n s a y s w h a t I w a s

s u p p o s e d to d o is t o – is t o o v e r r u l e i n m y u n d e r s t a n d in g I m a y u s e t h e
w r o n g E n g lis h b u t i t is t o o v e r r u l e m a n a g e m e n t o n t h e ir d e c is io n s . S o I
w a s n o t in v o lv e d o n t h e m a t te r. I c a n n o t t a k e th e m a t t e r f u r th e r t h a n
w h a t I a m s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

S o w h a t d o y o u w a n t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n t o

m a k e o f t h is s u s p e n s i o n n o ti c e t h a t i t m u s t s i m p l y b e d is r e g a r d e d , i t is
n o t w h a t y o u w o u ld h a v e d o n e o r a r e y o u s a y in g M r T h e b e l e d i d h is
10

own thing?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w a s n o t i n v o lv e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . C a n w e t h e n m o v e t o th e
s e c o n d – s o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e y o u m o v e Mr – I a m s o r r y. Ms N o r m a n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a n t to s a y s o m e th i n g in r e g a r d t o t h i s b u t b e f o r e I
d o th a t g o i n g b a c k Mr M o ts o e n e n g to t h e s t a te m e n t t h a t w a s is s u e d b y
t h e S A B C r e l a ti n g to t h e d e c i s i o n th a t y o u m a d e a b o u t v io le n t p r o te s t
a n d s o o n . A t s o m e s t a g e i n t h e f u tu r e s o m e b o d y m ig h t s ta n d in fr o n t

20

o f m e th e r e , a l a w y e r a n d s a y t o m e C h a ir p e r s o n d o n o t a c c e p t w h a t M r
M o ts o e n e n g s a i d b e f o r e y o u w h e n h e s a id h i s d e c is io n – w h e n h e s a i d
h e d i d n o t in t e n d to b a n th e s h o w in g o f v i s u a ls o f b u i l d i n g s d u r i n g
protests.

T h a t w a s n o t th e tr u th .

Do not take what he was saying

b e c a u s e w h e n y o u r e a d t h e s ta t e m e n t t h a t h e is s u e d t h a t i s n o w a
la w y e r a r g u in g b e f o r e m e b e f o r e I w r i t e m y r e p o r t .

Page 65 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
T h e la w y e r m i g h t s a y th is s t a t e m e n t t h a t w a s is s u e d b y th e
S A B C i s c le a r a s t o w h a t w a s n o t s u p p o s e d to b e d o n e . I t d o e s n o t ta lk
a b o u t j o u r n a li s t s o f S A B C d o n o t b e p a r t y t o c r i m in a li ty a n d a g r e e w h e n
p e o p l e s a y w e a r e g o i n g to b u r n p r o p e r ty. C o m e a n d a g r e e a n d c o m e
a n d s h o w u s . I t d o e s n o t s a y a n y t h i n g a lo n g th o s e l in e s i f y o u r e a d t h e
s t a te m e n t .
T h a t i s n o w a l a w y e r a r g u i n g t o m e . H e s a y s th e r e a r e c l e a r
s t a te m e n ts i n t h is y o u k n o w - s e n t e n c e s in t h e s t a te m e n t w h ic h s h o w
t h a t w h a t w a s s a id w a s d o n o t c o v e r th e s e p r o t e s ts . D o n o t s h o w t h e
10

v is u a ls o f th e s e p r o t e s t s a n d w h e n y o u l o o k a l s o a t th e le t t e r s o f
s u s p e n s i o n o f t h e r e le v a n t j o u r n a lis t s i t i s q u i te c l e a r - I j u s t r e a d a
part that …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n r e a d .
“ I t h a s c o m e t o m a n a g e m e n t ’s a t te n t io n t h a t y o u
h a v e a l l e g e d ly r e f u s e d t o c o m p ly w i t h a n i n s tr u c ti o n
p e r t a in in g to t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f th e S A B C E d i t o r i a l
P o lic y a s w e l l a s th e d ir e c t iv e n o t t o b r o a d c a s t
v is u a ls / a u d io o f th e d e s t r u c t i o n o f p r o p e r ty d u r i n g

20

p r o t e s t a c ti o n s a n d t h a t y o u d is t a n c e y o u r s e l f fr o m
the

i n s tr u c ti o n .

The

above

a ll e g e d

o ffe n c e

c o n s ti t u te s a r e f u s a l a n d /o r f a il u r e to c o m p ly w i th a
reasonable

and

l a w fu l

i n s tr u c t io n

and

same

i m p a c ti n g n e g a tiv e l y o n t h e d a y t o d a y b r o a d c a s ti n g
o p e r a ti o n s . ”

Page 66 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
S o t h i s l a w y e r n o w a r g u e s b e fo r e m e i n s o m e m o n t h s t o c o m e
a n d s a y s m a k e a fi n d i n g t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g k n o w s e n o u g h E n g l is h to
h a v e u n d e r s t o o d w h a t t h i s s t a te m e n t m e a n s . T h is t h in g t h a t h e d i d n o t
in t e n d t o b u r n t h e s h o w i n g o f v is u a ls h a s n o b a s is w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e
s t a te m e n t .

W h a t w o u ld y o u s a y w h e n s o m e b o d y - i f s o m e b o d y s a y s

that?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n le t m e s u b m it t o

y o u - s u b m i t t o y o u - to s a y to y o u w h e n y o u r e a d t h e Ac t i t i s u n l a w f u l
e x c e p t i f t h a t l a w y e r w il l b e c o m in g w i t h - w it h h i s o w n la w b u t w h e n
10

y o u r e a d t h i s C h a i r p e r s o n a c t u a lly s h o w i n g v io le n c e - g la m o r i s i n g
v io l e n c e i t i s u n l a w f u l i f w e s t ic k t o - t o t h e A c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

Th e

s e c o n d p o i n t C h a ir p e r s o n I w il l s u b m i t th a t th a t s t a t e m e n t i t c a u t i o n e d
p e o p l e a b o u t b u r n i n g - w h a t d o y o u c a ll it - w h e t h e r b u i l d i n g o r - o r
c li n i c s C h a ir p e r s o n .
I t j u s t - i t c a u ti o n e d p e o p l e . I w il l s u b m i t t h a t w h e n y o u r e a d
the

statement

r e a lly

I

think

C h a ir p e r s o n

if

my

respected

Advocate Norman …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S u b m i ts t h a t I w i ll …
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l it m i g h t n o t b e h e r b u t I a m j u s t s a y i n g

s o m e b o d y.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a m ju s t s a y i n g b e c a u s e s h e is
in fr o n t o f m e C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 67 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

So

I

w il l

s u b m it

that

C h a ir p e r s o n I m e a n r e a d i n g t h a t s ta t e m e n t n o t lo o k i n g f o r w h a t y o u a r e
lo o k in g fo r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : J u s t a p p ly i n g y o u r m i n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I n d e p e n d e n tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Yo u w i ll r e a li s e th e i m p o r t a n c e

o f th a t s t a te m e n t b u t a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n e v e n a f t e r t h a t - l e t u s s a y
p e o p l e d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h a t w e m e a n t - e v e n a f te r t h a t I h a v e
a lr e a d y a l l u d e d t h a t I e x p la in e d p u b li c a ll y s o a n d a ls o S A B C h a s b e e n
c o v e r in g s u c h p r o t e s ts a n d b u r n i n g o f t h o s e p r o p e r ti e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t r e s p o n s ib ly s o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is w h a t I w il l s u b m i t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . I in t e r r u p t e d y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
sure

then

Ye s th a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n .

M r M o ts o e n e n g y o u

w o u ld

agree

Page 68 of 177

that you

Then I am
had

these

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
jo u r n a li s ts t h a t w e r e s u s p e n d e d a n d a c c o r d i n g t o t h i s ju d g m e n t t h e
S A B C h a d s ta t e d t h a t th e y w e r e s u s p e n d e d b e c a u s e t h e y d id n o t a g r e e
w i t h th a t p o li c y o r w h a t e v e r w h e t h e r y o u c a l l it a p o l ic y o r a d ir e c tiv e
a n d th a t th e y h a d - w e r e a ls o c r i t ic a l o f m a n a g e m e n t.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n , m a y b e I s h a l l a l s o
s a y t h a t w e s h a ll n o t l e a v e th e i s s u e a b o u t t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t
w h ic h y o u a r e p a r t o f C h a i r p e r s o n .

T h e jo u r n a li s ts c a m e t o y o u a n d

y o u d is m is s e s p e c i a lly o n t h e s o c a l le d p o lic y o f S A B C a b o u t v i o l e n c e .
M a y b e s ta r t i n g fr o m th a t p o i n t C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

T h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t

w h ic h a ll o f u s w il l r e s p e c t d i s m is s e d t h o s e v i e w s b u t t h e L a b o u r C o u r t
C h a ir p e r s o n i f I - I m a y p u t m y s i d e o f th e s t o r y.
I t h i n k th e y w e n t o u t o f th e i r w a y t o d e a l w it h is s u e s t h a t t h e y
w e r e n o t s u p p o s e d to d e a l w i t h b e c a u s e t h e r e th e c h a r g e s i t w a s a b o u t
p u t t in g S A B C i n t o d i s r e p u te b y ta lk in g t o m e d i a . I f h a s n o t h i n g to d o
w i t h t h e d e c is io n s a n d t h a t is w h y I a m s a y in g m a y b e w h e n t h e y w e n t t o
c o u r t - C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t b e c a u s e w h e n t h e y w e n t t h e r e t h e y w e r e
tr y i n g t o s a y t h e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t s h a ll r u l e th a t t h e p o l ic y o f S A B C
it

is

u n c o n s t i tu t io n a l

w h ic h

the

C o n s ti t u ti o n a l

Court

rejected

C h a ir p e r s o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll th e - y o u a r e r i g h t t o s a y I w a s p a r t o f th e p a n e l
o f th e C o n s t i t u t i o n a l C o u r t t h a t d e a l t w i t h t h a t m a t t e r b u t th e - th e r e t h e r e is n o r e c e n t j u d g m e n t - i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c t ly - j u d g m e n t . T h e r e w a s
ju s t a n o r d e r. I a m n o t g o i n g t o s p e a k fo r t h e c o u r t w h i l e I a m s i t ti n g
h e r e b e c a u s e I a m n o t t h e c o u r t b u t i t is - i t is w o r th j u s t m e n ti o n i n g
w h a t th e s c e n a r i o w a s a t th e ti m e i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tly.

Page 69 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
T h e - t h e L a b o u r C o u r t h a d - w h e n t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a l C o u r t
m a d e i t s d e c is i o n to d is m is s t h e a p p l ic a ti o n to th e c o u r t r e l a t i n g t o t h e
p o li c y I t h i n k o n e , th e - th e L a b o u r C o u r t h a d p r o n o u n c e d o n t h e is s u e s
t h a t w e r e d e a lt w i t h i n t h a t j u d g m e n t , o n e . Tw o , I t h i n k t h e S A B C h a d
r e i n s t a te d t h e - t h e S A B C e i g h t b u t th r e e i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n t h e S A B C
h a d w i t h d r a w n w h e th e r y o u c a ll it t h e p o l ic y o r th e d e c is io n o r t h e
d ir e c t iv e a l l - t h a t is - t h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a n d s o m e t i m e s w h e n s o m e t i m e s w h e n th e C o n s ti t u ti o n a l C o u r t d is m is s e s a n a p p l ic a ti o n
w i t h o u t g iv in g a f u l l j u d g m e n t s o m e ti m e s i t i s o n t h e b a s is th a t th e
10

w h o le t h i n g h a s b e c o m e a c a d e mi c .
I a m n o t s a y i n g t h a t i n th a t c a s e t h a t w a s t h e r e a s o n . I a m
s a y in g s o m e t i m e s t h a t i s w h a t h a p p e n s .

So - but I leave it at that.

Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . Ye s , th a n k …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y - y o u m a y c o n ti n u e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. D i d y o u Mr M o t s o e n e n g
o n 3 1 M a y 2 0 1 6 s u m m o n M r Kr ig e a n d M s P il l a y to a m e e ti n g t o d i s c u s s
m a t t e r s th a t th e y w e r e u n h a p p y a b o u t ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
20

I m e t t h e m C h a ir p e r s o n b u t

t h e r e is p r o t o c o l w i th i n t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . I i n f o r m e d th e H e a d o f N e w s
t h e H e a d R a d io t h a t I - I w a n t to m e e t t h e m b u t ju s t g iv i n g y o u
background Chairperson.

T h e is s u e w a s - is s u e w h e n t h e y w e r e

d e a li n g w i t h t h e s a m e is s u e s t h a t w e - w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h t o d a y
b e c a u s e I s a id - t h e y s a id n o .

N o w I a m ta lk in g a b o u t t h e p o li c y

C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 70 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

W h e n I c a ll e d t h e m i t w a s

b e c a u s e o f t h e p o lic y. T h e y in v i t e d m e f o r in t e r v i e w. I t w a s m y s e l f a n d
A n t o n H e u n is . D u r i n g t h a t t i m e a f t e r in t e r v ie w t h e y s a i d b u t w e a r e n o t
a w a r e o f th is p o lic y. I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e l l . A n to n s a i d t o th e m n o t h a t
p o li c y is - e v e n i n t h e - y o u c a n G o o g l e i t i n t e r n e t y o u w il l fi n d i t. I n
t h e S A B C y o u w il l f in d t h a t th e p o li c y i s t h e r e .
T h a t w a s t h e m a i n r e a s o n t o - t o h a v e t h a t m e e t in g a n d
c la r i fy t h e is s u e s b e c a u s e i t s e e m s a s m a n a g e m e n t t h e y w e r e n o t
10

c o m m u n ic a ti n g w i t h t h e m b e c a u s e w h e n w e ta k e d e c is io n s - w h e n a t
b o a r d l e v e l o r a t E x c o w e a r e e x p e c t i n g th e h e a d o f t h o s e u n i ts t o
c o m m u n ic a te s u c h d e c i s i o n s . S o t h a t w a s t h e m a in p u r p o s e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . B o th o f t h e m h a d t e s t i fi e d b e fo r e t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n th a t a t t h a t m e e ti n g t h is i s w h e r e y o u t o l d t h e m t h a t :
“If people do not adhere get rid of them. We cannot
h a v e p e o p l e w h o q u e s t io n m a n a g e m e n t . T h is is t h e
la s t ti m e w e h a v e a m e e t in g o f t h i s k i n d . ”
A n d Mr M a t t h e w s a d d e d :
“ I t is c o l d o u t s i d e . I f y o u d o n o t li k e i t y o u c a n g o .

20

Yo u h a v e g o t t w o c h o ic e s th e d o o r o r t h e w in d o w. ”
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e f o r e M r M o ts o e n e n g r e s p o n d s .

Yo u m u s t

ju s t s a y w h e r e y o u a r e r e a d i n g t h a t fr o m .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h s o r r y. I t i s a l s o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t m in u t e s o r is it s o m e th in g l ik e ( i n t e r v e n e s ) ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I t is a ls o q u o t e d i n t h e j u d g m e n t C h a ir b u t

Page 71 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
b o t h w i t n e s s e s te s t i fi e d t o i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: In evidence, yes.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w e r e t h e r e m i n u t e s , w a s t h e r e s o m e t h in g th a t

they said was recorded?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: They had recorded …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d I c a n j u s t d ir e c t i n t h e ir b u n d l e w h e r e
t h e ir s t a t e m e n ts a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - I j u s t w a n te d to m a k e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : J u s t f o r th e r e c o r d C h a ir, y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t is fi n e .

I j u s t w a n t e d M r M o ts o e n e n g t o

a p p r e c ia t e th e w h o le c o n te x t o f w h a t …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Of that.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t y o u a r e s a y in g b e f o r e …
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: He responds, ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u M s K r i g e . S o r r y. I f I m a y j u s t
r e a d p a r a g r a p h 3 o f M r K r i g e ’s a ffi d a v i t .

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir.

P a g e 3 p a r a g r a p h s 9 / 1 0 a n d 11 . H e s a y s :
“In

a t te n d a n c e

were

Page 72 of 177

M r M o ts o e n e n g ,

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
Mr Jimi Matthews,
M r A n t o n H e u n is

M r S i m o n Te b e l e ,
and

M s S e b o l e lo D i t lh a k a n y a n e

and the spokesperson Kaizer - Mr Kaizer Kganyago.
T h e s e m e e t in g s w e r e fo r m a l ly r e c o r d e d a n d s h o u l d
b e a r c h iv e d in t h e o ffi c e o f t h e G E N e w s . E v e r y o n e
w a s a w a r e t h a t t h e s e s s io n s w e r e r e c o r d e d .
tr a n s c r ib e d

one

session

and

my

I

colleague

S a n d r a D e L a n g e a l s o t r a n s c r i b e d a s e s s i o n . A t th e
m e e ti n g M r M o ts o e n e n g s ta t e d w e a r e c l e a n in g u p
10

t h e o r g a n i s a t io n . P e o p l e a r e d o i n g t h e ir o w n s t u ff .
T h e r e a r e m a n y j o u r n a lis t s o u ts id e th a t w a n t to
w o r k fo r th e S A B C .
bad.

T h e e n v ir o n m e n t o u t s i d e is

N o p e r s o n w i t h i n th e S A B C i s i n d e p e n d e n t .

T h e S A B C is i n d e p e n d e n t .

T h is i s th e n e w S A B C .

Yo u m u s t a d a p t t o f in d a j o b e ls e w h e r e .
forum

must

go.

It

is

a d v e r tis i n g

E d i to r ’s
for

rival

newspapers. He added if people do not adhere get
r id o f t h e m .
management.
20

W e c a n n o t h a v e p e o p le w h o q u e s ti o n
T h is is t h e l a s t t i m e w e h a v e a

m e e ti n g o f th is k in d . ”
W h i c h is t h e p o r ti o n th a t I r e a d .

I t i s Kr iv a n i P i ll a y.

I beg

y o u r p a r d o n C h a ir. K P - K P 3 - p a g e 3 .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o I g u e s s t h e f ir s t q u e s ti o n m u s t b e w h e t h e r

M r M o ts o e n e n g …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o n f ir m s t h a t m e e ti n g .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON:

A c c e p t s t h a t w h a t i s s t a te d t h e r e a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t

h e s t a t e d is c o r r e c t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n w e c a n ta k e it f r o m t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n I d id a l lu d e e a r l ie r
I a m n o t h e r e t o d e fe n d o r m is le a d t h e C o m m is s i o n .

Some of the

is s u e s t h a t t h e y a r e r a is i n g th e r e i t i s tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

T h e o n ly i s s u e th a t - t h a t

e v e r y b o d y w a s a w a r e th a t th e y w e r e r e c o r d i n g I w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

They - they were recording.

M a y b e th e y w e r e r e c o r d in g b u t I - I w a s - I w a s n o t a w a r e . I s a w t h e m
taking notes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

T h e r e is d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n

taking notes and recording.
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Thank you.

S o - s o w h a t e v e r th e y

h a v e r e c o r d e d is c o r r e c t ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I - I cannot say it is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s - it is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k …

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I c a n o n ly t a lk a b o u t t h e is s u e s
that I know what I said in those …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k w h a t y o u …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u s h o u ld d o t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e m a y b e
something important out of what you read because he says …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Some of those things are correct.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: He does not say everything.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th o s e th a t y o u a r e i n t e r e s t e d i n p u t to h i m t o s a y c a n
I ta k e - c a n w e ta k e i t t h a t y o u d i d s a y th is . S o t h a t i f h e s a y s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is o n e o f t h e c o r r e c t o n e s t h e n w e c a n ta k e it …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Then we know it is recorded.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m th e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. O k a y. D i d y o u t e ll th e m
M r M o ts o e n e n g th a t y o u w il l c l e a n u p t h e o r g a n is a ti o n ?

20

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I d i d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. D i d y o u a ls o s a y t h a t p e o p l e w e r e
d o i n g t h e ir o w n s t u ff?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I d i d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D i d y o u s a y t o t h e m t h a t th e r e w e r e m a n y
jo u r n a li s ts o u ts i d e t h a t w a n te d - t h a t w a n te d w o r k - t o w o r k f o r th e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
SABC?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I d i d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

D i d y o u t e ll t h e m t h a t t h e e n v i r o n m e n t

outside was bad?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I d i d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D i d y o u t e ll t h e m t h a t n o p e r s o n w it h in t h e
SABC is independent?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I d i d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

D i d y o u t e l l t h e m t h a t th e S A B C i s

in d e p e n d e n t?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I d i d .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

D i d y o u t e l l t h e m t h a t t h is i s th e n e w

SABC?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s I d i d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D i d y o u a ls o t e ll t h e m t h a t y o u m u s t a d a p t
o r fi n d a j o b e ls e w h e r e ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I - I d o n o t k n o w t h a t E n g l is h

C h a ir p e r s o n - a d a p t - b u t w h a t I r e m e m b e r v e r y w e ll I s a i d e v e r y o n e
s h a l l a d h e r e t o t h e p o l ic y o f t h e S A B C .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o t th a t t h e a d a p t o n e . I …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s . T h a t - t h a t w o r d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I do not remember saying that.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . D i d y o u s a y t h a t th e E d i to r ’s
Forum must go?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

A n d d i d y o u a ls o s a y th a t i t w a s - th e

E d it o r ’s Fo r u m is a d v e r tis i n g f o r r i v a l n e w s p a p e r s ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y. D i d y o u s a y i f p e o p le d i d n o t - d o
n o t a d h e r e - w h ic h is w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d - g e t r i d o f t h e m ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
10

I - I ju s t w a n t t o r e m e m b e r

e x a c tl y w h a t I s a i d C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: May I …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is …
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Let me …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is i m p o r t a n t , ja .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I w ill c o m e b a c k to - t o i t . I ju s t
w a n t to tr y t o fi n d t h e w o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To tr y a n d r e m e m b e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

20

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ex a c tl y w h a t I s a i d e a r l ie r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t I r e m e m b e r C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: It was not a secret.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I s a i d S A B C w e a r e g o in g to

tr a n s fo r m c o m e w h a t - w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h e tr a n s fo r m a ti o n i s s u e .

I

s a i d to th e S A B C w e a r e g o in g t o p u t t h e c o n t e n t t h a t is in th e p u b l ic
in t e r e s t w h ic h i s l o c a l c o n t e n t i n S o u t h A fr ic a a n d th o s e is s u e s I d o n o t
r e a l ly n e e d p e r m i s s i o n b e c a u s e t h i s is w h a t t h e Ac t s a y s . T h is i s w h a t
t h e S A B C w i ll s t a n d f o r.
S o I s a id y o u c a n n o t q u e s ti o n t h e o b v i o u s o r q u e s t io n th a t
y o u c a n n o t d o th e p o l ic y. I t i s l ik e s a y i n g I c a n n o t a d h e r e t o t h e l a w.
I t is - t h o s e is s u e s I s a i d . I t is p u b lic k n o w l e d g e . I t is n o t s e c r e t . I
10

h a v e b e e n e v e n p u b lic a lly t a l k i n g a b o u t th e s e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k t h e o n e t h a t - I t h in k y o u s a i d y o u d o n o t k n o w
t h is E n g l is h o f a d a p t. Yo u s a i d y o u d o n o t k n o w a b o u t th a t p a r t . L e t
m e p u t i t t h is w a y. D id y o u s a y a n y th i n g w h ic h w a s t o o th e e ffe c t t h a t
a n y o n e w h o w a s n o t p r e p a r e d to a d h e r e t o t h i s d e c i s i o n w i ll h a v e t o
fi n d a j o b e ls e w h e r e o r t o t h a t e ff e c t ? D o - d i d y o u s a y a n y th in g a l o n g
t h o s e li n e s ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s f a r a s y o u r e m e m b e r.

20

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I

think

I

shall

g iv e

you

b a c k g r o u n d b e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t j u s t s a y t h is w it h o u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: A background.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I said this because some of the

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
p e o p l e w i t h i n t h e S A B C t h e ir m e n t a l it y i t w a s s ti ll o l d m e n t a l i ty a n d
w h e n y o u w a n t to tr a n s f o r m y o u m u s t tr a n s f o r m C h a ir p e r s o n a n d y o u
c a n n o t w o r k w it h p e o p le t h a t w o r k a g a i n s t t h e is s u e s t h a t th e
c o r p o r a t io n s h o u ld a c h i e v e . S o I a m n o t g o i n g t o r u n a w a y fr o m w h a t I
s a i d i n t h o s e is s u e s .
T h e r e w a s b a c k g r o u n d t h a t I c o n s id e r b e f o r e c o m in g t o th a t
c o n c l u s i o n . E v e n m y s e lf C h a ir p e r s o n i f I b e li e v e th a t t h e s e p e o p le I d o
n o t a g r e e w i t h t h e m w h y s h o u l d I - I s ta y. I c a n n o t w o r k a g a i n s t p e o p le
if I b e l ie v e th a t r e a l ly. I s a i d t o t h e m n o . I f y o u b e li e v e t h a t t h e S A B C
10

t h is d ir e c ti o n t h a t w e a r e t a k i n g y o u a r e n o t s u p p o r t a n d y o u d o n o t
agree with us what do you do.
W h a t is w r o n g i f I s a i d t h e y m u s t g o a n d lo o k o th e r
o p p o r t u n i ti e s o u ts i d e ? Ye s , I s a i d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u - y o u - t h e a n s w e r is y e s y o u s a id i t b u t t h is is
t h e c o n te x t o r b a c k g r o u n d …
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To i t ? O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u .

M r M o ts o e n e n g y o u a r e

a w a r e th a t IC A S A d i d fi n d t h a t t h a t P r o t e s t P o l ic y w a s u n l a w f u l a n d - o n
20

1 2 J u ly 2 0 1 6 ? Yo u a r e a w a r e o f th a t ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a m a w a r e C h a ir …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d I t h i n k - a n d i n m y a ff id a v i t
C h a ir p e r s o n …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

A s I s a i d I k n o w m y a ff id a v i t

a n d a l l th e s e d o c u m e n t s h e r e . I a ll u d e d t o th is is s u e C h a ir t o s a y I d o
n o t k n o w w h y th e y - y o u k n o w m e d i a C h a ir p e r s o n .

M e d i a is v e r y

d a n g e r o u s w h e n y o u j u s t fo ll o w w h a t t h e y a r e s a y i n g b e c a u s e I t h i n k
b e c a u s e e v e r y b o d y w a s fi g h t i n g t h e S A B C a n d s o o n . T h e y g e t i n r e a d
t h e ir o w n A c t i n th is B r o a d c a s ti n g A c t .
T h a t i s w h a t s a y s C h a ir p e r s o n y o u s h o u l d n o t g l a m o r is e s u c h
v is u a ls .

W e s t ic k t o t h i s .

T h e y - I C A S A - a c c o r d i n g to m y p e r s o n a l

v ie w C h a ir p e r s o n a s I s a i d I a m ju s t g i v i n g m y v ie w s h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

A c tu a l ly I t h i n k C h a ir p e r s o n I w il l s u b m i t t h a t th e y w e r e w r o n g .

Th e y

d i d n o t f o ll o w th e i r o w n A c t w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h a t is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n .
I n a n y c a s e C h a i r p e r s o n i t w a s n o t a p o li c y. I t w a s a d e c i s i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir j u s t - w e h a v e

c o m p il e d a b u n d l e o f a ll t h e p o l ic i e s b u t t h e o n e t h a t d e a ls w i th t h e
a s p e c t t h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g h a s j u s t d e a lt w i t h w il l b e c o n t a i n e d in
C C 3 5 .1 0 . I w il l - w e h a v e j u s t - t h a t c o p y i s a l o o s e c o p y. I t i s n o t i n
t h e a c t u a l b u n d l e f o r - f o r p u r p o s e s o f t o d a y. It w il l …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

We

-

we

w il l

ju s t

use

these.

M r M o ts o e n e n g y o u a r e a w a r e o f th e p o l ic y. Yo u h a v e q u o te d it i n y o u r
a ffi d a v i t b u t d o y o u w a n t to h a v e ( i n te r v e n e s ) ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l i f i t i s q u o t e d i n th e a ffi d a v i t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: He has quoted it, yes.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e i s l ik e ly t o k n o w …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s a y h e - h e k n o w s i t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M a y I j u s t r e fe r

C h a ir to p a g e 5 ? H e is r e f e r r in g t o R e g u l a ti o n 3 b e c a u s e t h e s e a r e 1 0
R e g u l a ti o n s r e g a r d i n g t h e C o d e o f C o n d u c t fo r Br o a d c a s ti n g S e r v ic e
L ic e n s e e s

is s u e d

in

t e r ms

of

S e c ti o n

54

of

the

E l e c tr o n i c

C o m m u n i c a t io n s A c t N o . 3 6 o f 2 0 0 5 a n d th e s e c ti o n t h a t h e r e fe r s t o i s
- i s R e g u l a ti o n 3 Vi o l e n c e a n d H a te S p e e c h . I t s a y s :
10

“ B r o a d c a s t in g

S e r v ic e

L ic e n s e e s

must

not

b r o a d c a s t m a t e r ia l w h ic h , j u d g e d w i t h i n c o n t e x t a ,
c o n ta in s v io le n c e w h ic h d o e s n o t p l a y a n i n te g r a l
r o l e i n d e v e lo p in g t h e p l o t, c h a r a c te r o r t h e m e o f
t h e m a t e r ia l a s a w h o le o r s a n c ti o n s , p r o m o te s o r
g l a m o r is e s v io l e n c e o r u n la w f u l c o n d u c t . ”
S o it is n o t j u s t a b l a n k e t p r o h i b i ti o n b e c a u s e y o u h a v e to
lo o k a t a s i tu a ti o n w i th in a p a r t ic u l a r c o n t e x t .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n

and

I am not

a r g u in g a b o u t th e l a w h e r e b e c a u s e I a m n o t a la w y e r. I a m j u s t s a y i n g
20

m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g a s I s a id e a r l ie r t h e w a y I - I a n a ly s e a n d i n t e r p r e t it
f o r m e i t is u n l a w f u l to g l a m o r i s e v io le n c e a n d w h e n I - w h e n I r e a d t h is
p a r a g r a p h th a t t h e a d v o c a te is - is t a lk i n g a b o u t I s t il l s ta n d w it h th o s e
v ie w s C h a ir p e r s o n th a t I w a s w i t h i n t h e - t h e A c t a n d I w a n t t o s u b m i t
t h a t th e - t h a t d e c is i o n o f I C A S A t h e y w e n t a g a i n s t th e ir - t h e A c t i ts e lf
C h a ir p e r s o n .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
T h a t i s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g .

I a m n o t a r g u in g a b o u t t h e - t h e

la w C h a i r p e r s o n . I a m ju s t s a y i n g m y u n d e r s t a n d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I h a v e n o t h a d a c h a n c e t o l o o k a t th e A c t a s s u c h
b u t I d id a s k o n e o f m y r e s e a r c h e r s l a s t e v e n i n g to h a v e a l o o k a t t h e
A c t a n d t h e r e p o r t I g o t w a s th a t t h e A c t i t s e l f d o e s n o t s e e m t o r e fe r to
g l a m o r is i n g a n d s o o n b u t th a t th a t c o m e s fr o m I C A S A …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

And this - you said Ms Norman this - these are

r e g u la t io n s ?
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e s e a r e r e g u l a ti o n s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
r e g u la t io n s .

P r o m u l g a te d b y I C A S A t o t h e e x t e n t th a t t h e y a r e

For

th e

point

that

you

maybe

w is h i n g

to

make

M r M o ts o e n e n g i t m i g h t n o t m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e w h e th e r i t is t h e A c t - i t
is in t h e A c t o r r e g u la t io n s a s lo n g a s i t i s i n t h e l a w b e c a u s e I t h i n k
t h a t w a s - t h a t w a s y o u r p o in t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

N o w I - I th o u g h t t h a t t h e q u e s ti o n w h e th e r o r n o t

y o u r d e c is io n h a d a n y t h in g to d o w i th g l a m o r i s i n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e w o r d u s e d ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : G la m o r i s i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G l a m o r is in g ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : G l a m o r i s i n g - g l a m o r is i n g v io le n c e . I - I t h o u g h t t h a t
t h a t w o u l d n o t a r i s e b e c a u s e y o u r - I t h o u g h t it w o u ld a r is e i f y o u r
e v i d e n c e w a s I s a i d th e S A B C m u s t n o l o n g e r s h o w v i s u a ls o f t h e
b u r n in g

of

p r o p e r ty

because

I

understood

th a t

that

w o u ld

be

g l a m o r is i n g v io le n c e w h ic h t h e r e g u l a t i o n s s a y s h o u l d n o t b e d o n e b u t
y o u r e v i d e n c e is th a t y o u d i d n o t s a y v is u a ls m u s t n o t b e s h o w n .
S o it t h e r e f o r e s e e m s t o m e th a t th e i s s u e o f g l a m o r is in g
s h o u l d n o t a r is e . D o I m i s u n d e r s ta n d a n y t h i n g ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir m a n y o u - y o u a r e c o r r e c t
10

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k t h e C h a ir p e r s o n - w e l l i n
m y r e a d i n g I a g r e e w i t h y o u a b o u t w h a t w e h a v e a lr e a d y a g r e e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: But if you through Chair a …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

“Contains

violence

w h ic h d o e s n o t p l a y a n i n t e g r a l r o le i n d e v e l o p i n g
t h e p l o t , c h a r a c t e r o r t h e m e o f th e m a t e r i a l a s a
20

w h o le

or

s a n c t io n s ,

promotes

or

g la m o r is e s

v io l e n c e o r u n la w f u l c o n d u c t . ”
S o C h a ir p e r s o n in m y v ie w a l l th e s e p a r a g r a p h s - i n - i n my
u n d e r s t a n d in g i t i s w a r n i n g t h e S A B C w h a t y o u c a n d o a n d w h a t y o u
c a n n o t d o C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t is my u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . D o n o t p r o m o t e v i o l e n c e . D o n o t g la m o r is e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
it . D o n o t s a n c t io n i t . T h a t i s a t l e a s t th e - t h e p a r a g r a p h b .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

A n d t h e p a r t t h a t I t h in k a ls o

in t e g r a l w h ic h m e a n s …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I n - i n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is s u e s
t h a t t h e y d o n o t r e a l ly a s s i s t t h e - t h e c o u n tr y. Th e w a y I - I in t e r p r e t i t
C h a ir. I m a y b e w r o n g b u t t h a t i s my - m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g b u t y o u a r e
10

r ig h t C h a ir p e r s o n .

I th i n k w e h a v e c l o s e d - c l o s e d t h e is s u e o f

g l a m o r is i n g w h a te v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir I w o u l d l ik e t o

r e fe r n o w t o th e E d i t o r ia l P o l ic i e s o f t h e S A B C . T h a t - th is d e a l s w i th
t h e c h a n g i n g o f r e p o r t in g li n e s i n t h e n e w s r o o m b e c a u s e a c c o r d i n g t o
t h e p o l ic y a t p a g e 2 2 C h a ir th a t p o lic y i s c o n t a i n e d - i f C h a ir w o u l d lik e
to have reference to it.
20

CHAIRPERSON: I have got it at …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Page 17 …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: Of EXHIBIT …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: EXHIBIT 18.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON: CC …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 17 and 18.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is c o r r e c t . Th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I f I m a y a s k C h a ir to t u r n t o p a g e 2 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

Fir s tly

M r M o ts o e n e n g

why

was

it

n e c e s s a r y t o h a v e t h e p o lic y c h a n g e d t o th e e ffe c t th a t n o w n e w s
10

r e p o r t e d t o th e C O O a n d n o t to t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e O ffi c e r ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t w h o t h e ( i n d is t in c t) E d i t o r i n C h i e f …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : E d i to r in C h i e f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a ll y ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e - th e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ffic e r i n
t e r m s o f th e p o l ic y i s - is th e E d i t o r in C h i e f. S o th a t c h a n g e d a n d t h e y
a l l r e p o r te d t o t h e C h i e f O p e r a t io n s O ff ic e r.

20

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n

if

I remember

c o r r e c t ly th a t p o lic y c h a n g e d i n 2 0 1 6 b u t e v e n t h e p r e v io u s t h e y w e r e
s t il l r e p o r ti n g t o m e .

I n t h e p a s t t h e G r o u p E x e c u t iv e o f N e w s t h e y

w e r e r e p o r ti n g d ir e c tly t o th e G C O .

There has been changes not in

2 0 1 6 b u t b e c a u s e i t i s - i t i s a b r o a d c a s ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n a n d th e
s tr a t e g y w a s p u t t h e b r o a d c a s t e r s t o g e t h e r.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
S o t h a t t h e r e is n o ( i n d is t in c t) w h e n i t c o m e s to m a k i n g s u r e
t h a t w e - w e g e n e r a te r e v e n u e .

It i s - it i s t h a t b a s k e t i n - in o n e

d iv is io n C h a ir p e r s o n . W e p u t t h a t t o g e t h e r. A l l t h e b r o a d c a s t e r s t h e y
were reporting

to

m e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d i t is

a s tr a te g y

of the

o r g a n i s a t io n a n d t h a t s t r a t e g y d id w o r k v e r y w e l l f o r S A B C .

All the

b r o a d c a s t e r s t h e y w e r e r e p o r t in g to m e .
C h a ir p e r s o n i t c a n ’ t b e s u b m i t t e d i f th e s t r a te g y c h a n g e i t w a s
w r o n g b e c a u s e i t ’s j u s t a p o li c y i t ’s j u s t h o w p e o p l e s e e th in g s , y o u
m a y s e e t h a t , n o t h i s o n e m u s t r e p o r t to t h e G C O I m a y s a y n o , t h is
10

m u s t r e p o r t t o t h e C O O , I m e a n t o b e h o n e s t y o u c a n ’t h a m m e r o n s u c h
is s u e s b e c a u s e it ’s j u s t a p o lic y i t ’s n o t e v e n a n Ac t , i t’s h o w d o y o u
s e e - I m e a n h o w d o y o u a li g n , h o w d o y o u th i n k S A B C w i ll d o w e ll i f
w e d o A , B , C , I m a y s a y t o y o u C h a ir p e r s o n , in m y v i e w, a n d I’ m n o t
r e p r e s e n ti n g th e B o a r d o n t h is m a t t e r s , m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g , p r e v i o u s l y
w h e n th e y w e r e c h a n g i n g , I th i n k i t w a s d u r i n g D r N g u b a n e , w h e n th e y
w e r e c h a n g i n g i t ’s b e c a u s e I ’ m a j o u r n a l is t, a s th e C O O I k n o w th is
e n v ir o n m e n t o f jo u r n a li s m .

When you put someone who doesn’t

u n d e r s t a n d t h e e n v ir o n m e n t o f j o u r n a lis m i t is a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e i f y o u
a r e p r e f e r r a l t o t h e p e r s o n w h a t h e ’s g o i n g t o d o , w h a t t h e p e r s o n k n o w
20

– I ’ m j u s t s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n if – b e c a u s e w e m u s t g o a n d c h e c k th e
b a c k g r o u n d w h a t in f o r m s t h is d e c is io n C h a ir p e r s o n , s o t h a t I w i ll
s u b m i t i t t o y o u C h a ir p e r s o n , I d o n ’ t s e e a n y t h i n g w r o n g b u t I a c c e p t it
C h a ir p e r s o n , I m e a n , s o m e o n e c a n c o m e a n d s a y th is w a s w r o n g , I
t h i n k i t s h o u l d h a p p e n a n d I c o m e e v e n m y s e l f t o s a y, n o t h is is w h a t –
I don’t see any problem. A person when in charge at that time we have

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
o u r o w n v i e w a n d s tr a t e g y s o a n d w e w i l l p u t w h a t w e b e li e v e it w il l
w o r k fo r t h e o r g a n is a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l Mr T h l o l o e , w h e n h e w a s g iv i n g e v id e n c e h e r e

a b o u t h is c o m m i s s i o n a n d h is r e p o r t s a i d th a t th e i d e a t h a t t h e G r o u p
C h i e f E x e c u ti v e O ff ic e r s h o u l d b e t h e E d i t o r i n C h i e f , w a s a n i d e a t h a t
w a s o r m a y h a v e b e e n ta k e n fr o m t h e B r i t i s h s y s te m b e c a u s e th e r e th e
D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l w o l d b e a j o u r n a lis t a n d w o u ld h a v e c o m e th r o u g h t h e
r a n k s s o i t w o u l d m a k e s e n s e t h a t t h e D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l s h o u ld b e th e
E d it o r i n C h ie f a n d h e s a y s i n th e i r r e p o r t, t h e y r e c o m m e n d e d th a t , t h a t
10

s h o u l d n o t b e c o n ti n u e d w i t h , w i th S A B C , i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e G r o u p
C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ffi c e r s h o u ld n o t b e E d i t o r i n C h i e f a n d h e g a v e t h e
reason which seems to be similar to what you are saying.

He said

b e c a u s e th e r e ’s n o r e q u ir e m e n t t h a t t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u ti v e O ff ic e r
o f t h e S A B C s h o u l d b e a j o u r n a l is t , i t c a n b e s o m e b o d y t h a t i s n o t a
jo u r n a li s t a n d i t i s b e t t e r t h a t t h e p e r s o n w h o h a s t h e f in a l s a y o n t h e s e
m a t t e r s s h o u l d b e s o m e b o d y w h o – I d o n ’ t k n o w i f h e s a i d f a lls w i t h i n
t h e n e w s r o o m b u t I u n d e r s t o o d h i m t o s a y it w o u l d b e s o m e b o d y w h o i s
– I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r i t is h e a d o f n e w s o r w h a t e v e r, b u t t h e p o in t y o u
a r e m a k i n g w h i c h m i g h t b e s i m il a r t o w h a t h e w a s s a y in g o r s i m i la r to
20

t h e m o t iv a ti o n is t h a t y o u w e r e C O O , y o u w e r e a j o u r n a lis t s o y o u
u n d e r s t o o d c e r t a i n t h in g s a b o u t jo u r n a l is m a n d i n y o u r v i e w i t m a d e
b e t t e r s e n s e t h a t y o u s h o u ld b e t h e E d i t o r in C h i e f .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

Ye s C h a ir b u t n o t – t h a t is m y

v ie w b u t I w a s j u s t a ll u d i n g b e c a u s e w h e n a s tr u c t u r e is c h a n g i n g a n d
y o u a r e a ff e c t e d th e y d o n ’ t – y o u a r e n o t p a r t o f s u c h a d is c u s s io n , I ’ m

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
ju s t s a y i n g m a y b e th a t i s t h e r e a s o n w h y I w a s p u t t h e r e b e c a u s e t h e y
u n d e r s t a n d fr o m t h e e n v i r o n m e n t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s s o – b u t y o u s e e m t o b e i m p ly in g th a t i t w a s t h e

B o a r d t h a t s a i d t h e C O O s h o u ld b e th e E d i t o r i n C h i e f, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ,
w h o ’s d e c i s i o n w a s i t ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n a l l t h e d e c is i o n s ,

e s p e c i a l ly w h e n y o u d e a l w i t h p o l ic y, i t’s a B o a r d r e s o lu t io n i t w i ll b e a
B o a r d r e s o lu t io n C h a ir p e r s o n .

What I don’t agree with the issue of

B r i t a i n , C h a ir p e r s o n … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

I may have misrepresented what was said here, so I

d o n ’t w a n t y o u t o b l a m e a n y b o d y
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Am I correct?

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

O k a y C h a ir p e r s o n , my p o in t

C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u k n o w I h a v e a s e r i o u s p r o b le m w i th p e o p l e c o p y i n g
B r i t a i n a n d o t h e r c o u n tr ie s a n d I h a v e b e e n v e r y v o c a l t o s a y, w h y
t h e s e o t h e r c o u n tr ie s c a n ’ t c o p y u s , y o u s e e i t’s t h i s is s u e o f q u o ti n g
o th e r p e o p l e i n [i n d is t in c t] a n d s o o n b u t n o - o n e is q u o t in g y o u .
C h a ir p e r s o n t h i s is w h a t I’ m s a y in g , w e n e e d t h i n k e r s in S o u t h A f r ic a
20

b e c a u s e n o w B r i t a i n a n d u s , C h a i r p e r s o n , w e a r e v e r y d i ffe r e n t s o w e
s h a l l c o m e th r o u g h o u r o w n b u t a l s o o t h e r c o u n tr i e s th e y s h o u ld fo ll o w
u s , w e s h a l l b e p e o p l e w h o a r e th i n k e r s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O f c o u r s e t o b e a t h i n k e r a ls o r e q u ir e s t h a t y o u

e x p o s e y o u r t h i n k in g t o o t h e r t h i n k e r s a n d y o u a ls o g e t e x p o s u r e t o
what other thinkers think but in the end you must make up your own

Page 88 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
mind, we agree on that?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
CHAIRPERSON:

H u n d r e d p e r c e n t C h a ir p e r s o n .

Ye s s o n o t th a t y o u m u s t n ’t h a v e r e g a r d t o w h a t

o th e r p e o p l e – w h a t e x p e r i e n c e s o t h e r p e o p l e h a v e , y o u m u s t h a v e
r e g a r d t o t h a t b u t y o u m u s t a ls o h a v e r e g a r d t o y o u r o w n e x p e r i e n c e s
a s a p e o p l e a s a c o u n tr y a n d t h e n d e c i d e w h a t i s b e s t f o r y o u in th e
s i tu a ti o n w h i c h y o u a r e in .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

I t h i n k C h a ir p e r s o n th e

e n v ir o n m e n t i ts e l f, i t m e a n s th a t y o u a r e n o t [ i n d is ti n c t ] w h a t i s
10

h a p p e n in g b u t y o u a p p ly w h a t is g o i n g t o w o r k f o r y o u b e c a u s e th e r e
a r e i n te r a c t i o n s b e t w e e n o t h e r c o u n tr i e s a n d u s s o t h a t o n e is n o r m a l
C h a ir p e r s o n b u t w e s h o u l d b e t h i n k e r s o u r s e l v e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:
they

can

f o l lo w

us,

because

l e t ’s

A ls o , s o th a t o th e r c o u n tr i e s
ta k e

th e

is s u e

C h a ir p e r s o n ,

b e n c h m a r k i n g , y o u k n o w I h a v e s e r i o u s d is c u s s io n w i t h S A B C t o s a y
but,

why

do

you

want

to

go

o u ts i d e ,

abroad

every

ti m e

for

b e n c h m a r k i n g , w h y t h e s e p e o p le t h e y c a n ’ t u s e S o u t h A f r i c a a s a
b e n c h m a r k b u t h e r e I’ m j u s t e n c o u r a g in g t h a t , w e s h a ll b e t h i n k e r s , I ’ m
20

n o t s a y i n g w e c a n ’t g o a n e n g a g e o t h e r c o u n tr i e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, m a y b e j u s t f o r r e fe r e n c e

p u r p o s e s i n h is E x e c u ti v e s u m m a r y. Mr T h l o l o e a t p a g e 7 4 o f E x h i b i t
C C 1 7 .2 t o 1 8 p a r a g r a p h s ix , th is i s w h a t h e s a y s ,
“ L a s tl y t h e d e s i g n a t io n o f t h e G C E O o r C O O a s E d i t o r i n C h i e f

Page 89 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
is n o t a p p r o p r i a te f o r t h e S A B C b e c a u s e t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s o f
t h e c o r p o r a ti o n a r e d i ffe r e n t fr o m t h o s e o f t h e B B C t h e m o d e l
f o r t h e c u r r e n t s tr u c t u r e ” ,
Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t h i n k w e s h o u l d d e a l w i th t h e r e s p o n s e s

y o u ’v e d e a l t w i t h t h e r e s p o n s e s o f Mr K r i e g e a n d Mi s s P il la y a n d I’ m
n o t s u r e i f y o u li s te n e d t o t h e i r e v i d e n c e w h e n th e y t e s ti f ie d ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

P a r tl y C h a ir, p a r tl y I d i d .

Ye s t h a n k y o u . C a n I j u s t t a k e y o u to t h e

e v i d e n c e o f M is s K a b u l e a n d Mr P h ir y … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] ?
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e f o r e y o u g o t h e r e M i s s N o r m a n , j u s t a ls o

t o r o u n d o ff s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e h a v e d e a l t w i t h a lr e a d y. Yo u h a v e s a id ,
M r M o ts o e n e n g t h a t a s f a r a s y o u k n o w a n d a s fa r a s y o u a r e
c o n c e r n e d , t h e S A B C j o u r n a lis ts w h o w e r e s u s p e n d e d a n d d is m i s s e d ,
t h e ir s u s p e n s i o n a n d d i s m is s a l w a s – o r w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a b o u t
t h e m s p e a k in g to t h e m e d ia a b o u t c e r t a in m a t te r s .

It was or was not

s u p p o s e d t o b e f o r t h e ir u n p r e p a r e d n e s s if t h a t is w h a t t h e c a s e w a s to
c o m p ly w it h a d ir e c ti v e th a t t h e y u n d e r s t o o d t o m e a n , d o n ’ t s h o w
20

v is u a ls o f t h e b u r n i n g o f p u b lic – o f p r o p e r t y, t h a t is w h a t y o u h a v e
said, am I right?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s n o w i f, w h e n o n e r e a d s t h e n o ti c e o f

s u s p e n s i o n a n d i f o n e l o o k s a t t h e d o c u m e n ta t io n a n d t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t
h a s b e c o m e b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s i o n a n d w h a t m a y s til l c o m e , i f o n e

Page 90 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
c o n c l u d e s th a t a c tu a l ly t h e le t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n a n d m a y b e w h o e v e r i t
is w h o m a d e t h e d e c is i o n t o d is m is s , I u n d e r s ta n d y o u t o s a y y o u w e r e
n o t i n v o l v e d w i th t h a t , i f o n e fi n d s t h a t t h e y a c t u a ll y d i s m is s e d t h e m ,
n o t r e a l ly f o r s p e a k in g t o th e m e d ia o r c o m m u n ic a t i n g w i th t h e m e d i a
b u t f o r th e ir o p p o s i t io n t o a d ir e c t iv e o r a d e c is io n t h a t t h e y b e l i e v e d
s a i d t h a t th e y m u s t n ’ t s h o w v is u a l s o f th e b u r n i n g o f b u i ld i n g s d u r i n g
p r o t e s t s , is y o u r s t a n d t h a t t h e n t h e y s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n d is m is s e d
f o r t h a t?
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG:
10

C h a ir p e r s o n n e w s i s a r o b u s t

d e b a te w i th i n n e w s , I h a v e b e e n a j o u r n a l is t, I h a v e b e e n p a r t ic i p a ti n g
[i n d is t in c t] e v e n m y b o s s e s a n d m y s e l f a b o u t c e r t a i n d ir e c t io n s t h a t I
t h i n k i t w a s w r o n g fo r t h e S A B C t o – li k e I n d i a , I ’ m n o t s a y i n g I ’ m r ig h t
or

wrong

but

that

is

th e

robust

that

is

a ll o w e d

in

newsroom

C h a ir p e r s o n , a n d I ’l l t e ll y o u C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e p e o p le u s e m y n a m e
o n c e r ta in is s u e s a n d I’ m s a y in g t h i s b e c a u s e i f y o u g o t h r o u g h t h e –
m y a ffi d a v i t a n d t h e S A B C a ff i d a v i ts , t h e y c o n fi r m t h a t I w a s n o t p a r t
b u t w h e n S i m o n Te b e l e w e n t to – n o , n o e v e n i n h is a ffi d a v it b u t fr o m
t h e [i n d is t in c t] i n C o u r t h is A d v o c a t e s t a n d u p a n d s a y, n o h is r a t i o n
w a s f r o m C la u d i b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e y h a v e b e e n lo b b y in g e a c h o t h e r
20

b u t th a t is w h a t p e o p l e h a v e b e e n u s i n g a n d my n a m e C h a ir p e r s o n . I
w i ll n e v e r a l lo w a s i t u a t io n w h e r e p e o p le a r e d i s m is s e d b e c a u s e o f t h e
d i ff e r e n c e a m o n g s t th e m s e lv e s , i t ’s n o r m a l i n t h e n e w s r o o m , i t’s n o r m a l
in a n y e n v ir o n m e n t . In a n y c a s e C h a ir p e r s o n I ’ m t h e m o s t p e r s o n w h o
h a s b e e n e n g a g in g s ta ff o f th e S A B C , t h e r e c o r d s w i ll s h o w y o u e v e n
t h e S A B C e m p lo y e e s , t h e y w il l t e l l y o u .

Page 91 of 177

W h e n th e y d i ff e r, w h ic h is

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
n o r m a l , th e w a y I d o t h i n g s b u t i f y o u ta lk a b o u t c o n s u l t a ti o n , tr y i n g t o
e x p l a i n to t h e m w h y I a m t a k i n g t h is d e c i s io n s a n d s o o n b u t I ’ m a w a r e
C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t p e o p l e u s e my n a m e .

E x a m p l e C h a ir p e r s o n , w h e n

Vu y o M v o k o w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e d is m is s e d S o p h i e M o k o e n a a n d
N o n t a n d o r u s h e d t o m e t o s a y, h e y C h i e f w e h e r t h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g
t h a t th is p e r s o n m u s t b e d is m i s s e d , I s a i d , n o I d o n ’ t k n o w t h i s is s u e s
I’ m j u s t g iv in g o n e o f t h e e x a m p l e . I ’ m v e r y fir m C h a i r p e r s o n a n d i f I
h a v e t a k e n a d e c i s i o n I s ta n d w it h m y d e c is io n s a n d I s a i d , n o I ’ m n o t
a w a r e I d i d n ’ t s a y th o s e is s u e m a y b e p e o p le w e r e s u p p o s e d t o b e
10

d is m i s s e d w h e n m a n a g e m e n t t h e y w a n t e d t o d i s m is s t h e m a n d t h e y g o
t h e r e a n d u s e m y n a m e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d s o m e p e o p l e c a n a ll u d e t o
t h a t , w h a t I’ m s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n , I w i l l n e v e r a l lo w s u c h s t u ff t o
h a p p e n a t th e S A B C b e c a u s e I k n o w th a t i s w h a t j o u r n a l is ts s h o u l d d o ,
d e b a te r o b u s t ly a m o n g s t t h e m s e lv e s .

W h e r e [i n d is t in c t] i s w h e n i t

c o m e s t o tr a n s fo r m a ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e I th i n k w e m u s t tr a n s f o r m
w e c a n ’ t t a lk f o r e v e r, t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n , I a c t .
CHAIRPERSON:
there

is

W e ll t h e m a y b e i n s t a n c e s w h e r e a t a c e r ta i n s ta g e

discussion

and

c o n s u l ta t io n

and

debates

and

t h e r e ’s

d is a g r e e m e n t s a n d t h e r e ’s d i ff e r e n t v i e w s a n d t h e n – b u t s o m e b o d y
20

n e e d s t o m a k e a d e c is io n a n d s a y s , I’ v e h e a r d a ll o f y o u , I’ v e h e a r d a ll
v ie w s b u t n o w t h i s i s th e d e c i s i o n I m a k e . S o m e o f y o u m i g h t n o t l ik e i t
b u t h a v e h a d a d i s c u s s io n I’ v e h e a r d y o u , I d o n ’ t a g r e e , t h i s is t h e
d e c is i o n I m a k e . N o w I a s s u m e t h a t w h a t y o u h a v e ju s t s a i d d o e s n o t
d e tr a c t fr o m t h a t , y o u a c c e p t th a t y o u m a y h a v e t h a t s i tu a ti o n i n a n y
o r g a n i s a t io n .

Page 92 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

I agree with you a hundred

p e r c e n t , t h a t ’s w h y I s a i d e a r li e r C h a ir p e r s o n w h e r e I to o k a d e c is i o n
w h e t h e r w r o n g o r r i g h t, I w o n ’ t m is le a d y o u o n s a y in g I d i d n ’ t t o o k
t h e s e d e c is i o n s , I t o o k th e s e d e c is i o n s I m i g h t b e r ig h t o r w r o n g y o u ’l l
d e c i d e t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n , s o s o m e o n e m u s t t a k e d e c is io n a n d i n m y
v ie w

I

have

ta k e n

popular

d e c is i o n s

and

unpopular

decisions

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d w i t h r e g a r d t o th e s u s p e n s io n a n d / o r

d is m i s s a l s o f t h e j o u r n a l is ts y o u s a y y o u w e r e n o t p a r t o f a n y d e c is i o n
10

t o s u s p e n d o r d is m i s s a n y o f t h e m , i s t h a t c o r r e c t, o r m a y b e s o m e o f
them yes but others not?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : M a y b e C h a ir p e r s o n o n t h e li g h t
n o t e , b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s I ’ m a h u m a n b e in g I w a n t t o j u s t , y o u k n o w
r e fr e s h m y s e l f.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

O n t h e li g h t n o t e C h a ir p e r s o n

S i m o n Te b e l e w h o w a s t h e h e a d o f n e w s b e f o r e t h is i s s u e s h a p p e n e d ,
he

came

to

my

o ffi c e ,

it

was

me,

Anton,

o ffi c e

m a n a g e r,

P a s h a … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n to n i s w h o ?

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

A n to n H e u n is C h a ir, I th i n k i t

w a s M r M a g u m a , I w a s s i t ti n g w e w e r e d r i n k i n g te a i n th e m o r n i n g
b e f o r e w e c a n s ta r t w o r k . H e c a m e to m e a n d s a id , h e y C h i e f , b l o o d o n
t h e f lo o r, I s a id h e y b lo o d o n t h e fl o o r, h e s a i d b lo o d o n t h e fl o o r, I s a i d
w h a t ’s

happening

about

blood,

he

s a id

Page 93 of 177

no,

these

people

d e fy

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
m e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir p e r s o n h e c a n ’ t s a y m e b e c a u s e t h e y r e p o r t

to him.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

H e s a i d n o th e s e p e o p l e th e y

d e f y m e , I s a i d a b o u t w h a t , h e s a i d n o C h ie f h e d i s c u s s e d a l l th e
d i ff e r e n c e s a m o n g s t t h e m s e lv e s a n d t h e n I s a id t o h i m , y o u k n o w h o w I
o p e r a t e , i f y o u k n o w p e o p le a r e n o t fo ll o w i n g th e p o lic y o r th e y a r e
d o i n g s tu ff t h a t th e y ’r e n o t s u p p o s e d t o d o , y o u , y o u c a n ’t c o m e t o m e
a n d r e p o r t t h i s is s u e s , y o u m u s t t a k e a c t io n y o u r s e l f , s o y o u d o n ’ t
10

report to me.

S o y o u a r e a p p o in t e d th e e a n d y o u h a v e d e l e g a t io n o f

a u t h o r i ty, o p e r a te w i t h i n y o u r d e l e g a ti o n o f a u th o r i ty b e c a u s e if y o u a r e
g o i n g t o c r y t o m e I w i ll a c t o n y o u , C h a ir p e r s o n , th a t i s w h a t I s a i d
…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t i s w h a t y o u s a i d to h i m ?

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s t h a t is w h a t I s a i d to h i m ,
t o s a y i f y o u k n o w, I m e a n y o u c a n ’ t c o m e a n d r e p o r t t o m e , th o s e
p e o p l e t h e y r e p o r t t o y o u . S o i f y o u d o w r o n g s tu ff t h a t I b e li e v e y o u
d o w r o n g s tu ff I’ m g o i n g t o a c t o n y o u .

S o m y d i s c ip li n a r y a c ti o n

C h a ir p e r s o n , i f I w a s s u p p o s e d t o ta k e a n y d is c i p l i n a r y a c ti o n I w i ll
20

t a k e a g a i n s t S i m o n Te b e le , n o t t h o s e p e o p le b e c a u s e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

They did not report to you.

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

They did not report to me and I

d o n ’t s e e s it in t h o s e d e b a t e s w h e r e th e y d e b a t e s to r i e s C h a i r p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, s o i f … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

Page 94 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON:

Well maybe – I’m sorry again Miss Norman, when I

w a s r e a d i n g t h e L a b o u r C o u r t j u d g m e n t a n d i t s a i d w h o h a d f il e d
a ffi d a v i ts o n b e h a l f o f th e S A B C i t s e e m e d s tr a n g e t h a t i t d i d n ’ t r e f e r t o
a n y a ffi d a v it b y y o u , t h a t’s s i m p ly b e c a u s e o f w h a t o n e w a s r e a d in g i n
t h e j u d g m e n t b u t is th e r e a s o n w h y th e r e w a s n o a ff id a v i t b y y o u t o
e x p l a i n t h e S A B C ’s d e c is i o n s a b o u t t h e S A B C a id , is t h e r e a s o n w h y
t h e r e w a s n o a ff i d a v i t fr o m y o u s i m p ly b e c a u s e y o u w e r e n o t p a r t o f t h e
d e c is i o n t o s u s p e n d o r d i s m is s t h e m ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:
10

C h a ir p e r s o n y o u a r e c o r r e c t

b u t w h a t is p a in f u l i n th a t p r o c e s s , r e m e m b e r t h e C o u r t s a y s I m u s t p a y
t h e c o s t a n d I s t ill b e li e v e C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s u n f a ir b e c a u s e I w a s n o t
g iv e n a t i m e t o t e l l m y o w n s t o r y l ik e I’ m t e l li n g y o u t o d a y C h a i r p e r s o n
a n d p u t m y s id e o f t h e s t o r y a n d w h e n I c h e c k e d t h a t j u d g e m e n t i t s a id ,
n o b u t w e ’r e s u p p o s e d t o s t o p i t b u t e v e n s to p p i n g th a t p r o c e s s o f
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g t h e n I m u s t e x p l a in my s e l f b u t t o c o m e to
c o n c l u s i o n C h a i r p e r s o n t o s a y, n o H la u d i y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o s t o p
t h is y o u m u s t p a y th e c o s t i t is u n f a ir a n d i t a ffe c t s my c o n s t it u ti o n a l
r ig h ts C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e – t h a t ’s w h y I ’ m s a y i n g , a n d w i t h d u e
r e s p e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , th a t is w h y I w a s s a y in g i t s e e m s a s a ls o s o m e o f

20

J u d g e s a r e c a p t u r e d b y w h a t m e d ia s a y s a n d m a y b e o t h e r p e o p l e , t h e y
c o m e t o c o n c l u s i o n , h e y is t h a t H l a u d i , I a m i n tr o u b l e , t h a t is my v ie w
C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s Th a n k y o u , M i s s N o r m a n , o h I s e e i t ’s 1

o ’c l o c k .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s i t ’s 1 o ’c l o c k y e s t h a n k y o u C h a ir,

Page 95 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
m a y w e t a k e t h e lu n c h a d jo u r n m e n t?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l M r M o ts o e n e n g h a s b e e n o n th a t c h a ir n o w f o r

q u i te s o m e t i m e s i n c e y e s t e r d a y b u t I th i n k it ’s i m p o r t a n t , I th i n k th e
is s u e s w e a r e d e a li n g w i th a r e i m p o r t a n t is s u e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d i t ’s i m p o r t a n t th a t t h e y b e d e a l t w i t h p r o p e r ly.

S o I t h i n k fr o m y o u r e s t i m a ti o n y e s te r d a y it m i g h t h a v e b e e n th a t w e
m i g h t h a v e b e e n d o n e w i th h i m .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Tr u e C h a ir y e s .

A n d I h a v e i n t e r v e n e d a ls o t o a s k h i m q u i t e a l o t o f

q u e s t io n s b u t t h a t ’s b e c a u s e I w a n te d t o s a tis fy m y s e l f o n c e r t a i n
t h i n g s a n d t o g iv e h i m a c h a n c e t o a ls o c l a r i f y h i s p o s it i o n o n a n u m b e r
o f t h in g s .

S o I t h i n k i t’s n e v e r t h e l e s s i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e i t r e la t e s t o

a n i m p o r t a n t i n s t it u ti o n in t h e c o u n t r y a s w e ll . S o w e a r e g o i n g to t a k e
t h e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t, s o M r M o t s o e n e n g I’ m s o r r y th a t w e h a v e n ’t –
w e ’r e n o t d o n e y e t s o w e ’ ll c o n ti n u e a f te r l u n c h b u t I th in k th a t i t ’s in
y o u r i n te r e s t t o o t h a t t h e s e is s u e s b e d e a l t w i t h p r o p e r ly.
MR

HLAUDI

GEORGE

MOTSOEN ENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n , a c tu a l ly

C h a ir p e r s o n I ’ m v e r y g la d b e c a u s e n o - o n e h a s e v e r l is t e n e d t o m y
20

s t o r y.

P e o p l e h a v e t a k e n a c o n c l u s io n w it h o u t m e b e i n g p a r t o f t h e ir

c o n c l u s i o n C h a ir p e r s o n , I’ m v e r y h a p p y C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y t h a n k y o u . W e ’l l t a k e t h e lu n c h a d j o u r n m e n t

it ’s o n e o ’ c l o c k w e l l r e s u m e a t tw o o ’ c l o c k , w e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

All rise.

INQUIRY ADJOURNS

Page 96 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Before we proceed

c o u n s e l f o r M r M o t s o e n e n g h a s s o m e th in g t h a t h e w is h e s t o r a is e w i t h
you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t t h a n k y o u .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :
10

G o o d a f te r n o o n C h a ir.

T h a n k y o u f o r th e

o p p o r t u n i ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

T h e r e is ju s t s o m e a s p e c t s w h ic h I h a v e

t a k e n n o t e o f w h ic h I th i n k w e n e e d t o d e l v e i n t o e n s u r e th a t M r H l a u d i
M o ts o e n e n g ’s i n t e r e s t s a n d r i g h ts a r e p r o t e c t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

R e m e m b e r e a r l ie r o n in t h e m o r n i n g I

a d d r e s s e d y o u o n t h e is s u e t h a t h e is h e r e fir s t ly a s a n i n v it e d w i t n e s s
a n d a ls o s e c o n d ly a s a n i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n a n d th e r e fo r e th e t h r e s h o l d
o f h is te s ti m o n y is m o s t ly p e r s u a d e d b y t h o s e tw o f a c t o r s .
20

G iv e n t h e

f a c t t h a t h e is i m p l ic a te d t h e i s s u e s t h a t n e e d t o b e a d d r e s s e d
p a r t ic u l a r ly p e r t a i n in g t o th e s o l id a r i ty ju d g m e n t t h a t th e S A B C 8
ju d g m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h e is s u e s a b o u t t h e s u s p e n s io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 97 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

A n d t h e l e tt e r s f ir s tl y t h e n o ti c e s o f

d is c i p l i n a r y e n q u ir i e s . T h e y a r e s e p a r a t e – t h e r e w e r e e i g h t d i ff e r e n t
n o t ic e s o f d i s c ip li n a r y e n q u ir y. T h e y w e r e n o t a l l i d e n ti c a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : I t h in k t h o s e a r e th e i s s u e s t h a t n e e d to b e
p u t a c r o s s t o h i m o t h e r t h a n ju s t t h e is s u e o f t h e s u s p e n s io n l e t te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : To a s s is t t h e p r o c e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a t is m y a d d r e s s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o , n o th a t is f i n e b u t y o u w i ll r e m e m b e r t h a t a t s o m e
s t a g e w h e n I a s k e d h i m w h e th e r h e p l a y e d a n y p a r t i n t h e d e c is i o n t o
s u s p e n d o r to d is m i s s t h e jo u r n a li s t r e fe r r e d a s S A B C 8 I s a id s o m e o f
t h e m o r – w e r e y o u i n v o lv e d i n t h e d e c is i o n t o d is m i s s s o m e o f th e m ,
s u s p e n d s o m e o f t h e m o r a l l o f th e m .

I t w a s p r e c is e l y b e c a u s e I

a p p r e c ia t e d t h a t w e m i g h t w e ll h a v e a s it u a ti o n w h e r e h e m a y h a v e
b e e n i n v o l v e d in s o m e a n d n o t o t h e r s a n d I d i d n o t w a n t y o u t o p u t i t a s
a b l a n k e t t h i n g a n d t h e n m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f h is e v i d e n c e i s t h a t h e
w a s s a y in g h e w a s n o t i n v o lv e d . H e d i d n o t t a k e p a r t i n a n y d e c is i o n to
20

s u s p e n d o r d is m is s a n y o f th e m .

T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f h is

e v i d e n c e . Yo u r e m e m b e r t h a t p a r t w h e n I w a s a s k i n g h i m ? Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : Ye s , y e s I d o r e c o l le c t p a r t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

I t i s j u s t t h a t it is t h a t t h e y w e r e – t h e r e

k e p t o n b e in g to a n d fr o e s s u r r o u n d i n g t h e …

Page 98 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : L e t t e r o f s u s p e n s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : H e n c e t h a t i s w h y I b e c a m e a b i t p e r tu r b e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Concerned ja.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : A n d a n x io u s t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

T h a t is s u e n e e d s t o b e v e n ti la t e d b e f o r e

you.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : B e f o r e w e p r o c e e d th is a ft e r n o o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : W h y I a m s a y i n g s o b e c a u s e I h a v e a l w a y s
s e e n a s u s p e n s i o n a s a k i n t o a n a r r e s t.

Because when you arrest a

p e r s o n y o u d o n o t n o r m a lly – y o u m ig h t a r r e s t th e m o n s u s p ic io n o f a
c e r t a i n o ff e n c e b u t w h e n y o u c h a r g e t h a t p e r s o n y o u m i g h t c h a r g e t h e m
w i t h d i ffe r e n t o ff e n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :
20

O th e r th a n t h e o n e th a t y o u m i g h t h a v e

a r r e s t e d h i m f o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : S o I t h i n k th o s e a r e t h e i s s u e s t h a t n e e d to
b e p o r tr a y e d b e f o r e th is [i n d is t in c t] .
CHAIRPERSON:

No, no that is fine. If there are any letters of

s u s p e n s i o n o r d is m is s a ls t h a t y o u – y o u s u g g e s t t h e e v i d e n c e le a d e r

Page 99 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
a ls o b r in g t o h is a t t e n t io n y o u m a y d o s o . B u t i t m a y b e i f h e d i d n o t
t a k e p a r t i n t h e d e c is io n to s u s p e n d o r d i s mi s s i t m ig h t b e i r r e l e v a n t .
S o – b u t y o u c a n j u s t e x e r c is e , r e f le c t o n it . I f y o u th i n k t h e r e is s o m e
i m p o r t a n c e s h a r e t h e in f o r m a t io n w i th th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r. S h e m ig h t
t h e n p u t th a t to h i m . I f th a t i s f in e J a .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : J a I s a y s o C h a ir b e c a u s e th e r e h a v e b e e n
R u l e 3 . 3 N o tic e s p e r t a i n in g t o t h e t e s t i m o n y o f m o s t o f t h o s e S A B C 8
w i t h Ms T h a n d e k a G q u b u l e - M b e k i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : A n d t h e n t h e r e is a ls o Ms P i ll a y a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

Th e [ in d is ti n c t ] I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e r e a r e

a n y w h o a r e s t il l t o te s t i fy b e f o r e t h is fo r u m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : B u t s u ff ic e t o s a y t h a t i t is t h e is s u e o f th a t
t h e y h a v e i m p li c a t e d h i m i n th e ir a ff id a v i ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

H e n c e th a t i s w h y I t h in k i t is i m p o r t a n t

a ls o .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s n o i n s o f a r a s t h e y i m p lic a t e d h i m I a m s u r e t h e

e v i d e n c e l e a d e r w il l p u t t h a t t o h i m a n d g i v e h i m a c h a n c e t o d e a l w i t h
it . O f c o u r s e t o t h e e x te n t t h a t th e y m a y h a v e s a i d i f th a t is w h a t th e y
s a i d th a t h e m a y – h e w a s in v o lv e d in t h e d e c is io n t o s u s p e n d t h e m o r
d is m i s s th e m h e h a s s a i d h e w a s n o t . W h e th e r o r n o t i n t h e e n d t h a t is
w h a t i s a c c e p t e d is a n o t h e r i s s u e . B u t I t h i n k t h e e v id e n c e l e a d e r w i ll

Page 100 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
p r o b a b ly p u t t h a t to h i m . B u t w h e n w e – w h e n t h e e v id e n c e le a d e r is
d o n e y o u c a n m a k e n o te s – w h e n s h e i s d o n e a n d t h e r e a r e c e r t a in
a r e a s w h ic h y o u fe e l m a y b e w e r e n o t t o u c h e d th a t a r e i m p o r t a n t y o u
c a n r a is e th e i s s u e a g a in .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : O k a y. T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t b e f o r e l u n c h I w a s
g o i n g to d e a l w i t h t h o s e a ll e g a t io n s b y t h e v a r io u s m e m b e r s o f t h e
S A B C 3 b u t a l s o C h a ir m a y b e w e s h o u ld w i t h y o u r l e a v e I s h o u l d ju s t
10

d e a l w it h t h e n o t ic e s a s th e y a r e c a p t u r e d in t h e ju d g m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Br i e f ly s o t h a t t h e n w e c a n s a tis f y t h a t

c o m p la i n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

C h a ir i f I m a y g o b a c k t o

E x h i b i t C C 5 to 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h e x h i b i t ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th e ju d g e – E x h i b it C C 5 to 1 6 C h a ir w h e r e
there is that labour court judgment.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , y e s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k I a m s t ill in t h e s a m e p l a c e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u s t il l h a v e i t i n fr o n t o f y o u l.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

We have – we read out the

Page 101 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
o n e t h a t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 8 6 w h ic h is t h e N o t ic e o f S u s p e n s io n a n d I d o
n o t th in k w e s h o u l d r e p e a t i t b u t th e n t h e r e is a n o t h e r o n e t h a t w h e r e
t h e r e i s c h a r g e s a t p a g e 8 7 . A n d t h i s p a r a g r a p h r e l a te s t o
“ O n 2 9 J u n e a ll t h r e e e m p l o y e e s r e c e i v e d l e t te r s
n o t i fy i n g

them

of

the

in s t i tu t io n

of

d is c i p l i n a r y

p r o c e e d i n g s i n t h e f o l lo w in g te r m s :
Yo u a r e h e r e b y n o ti f ie d t o a t te n d a d is c i p l i n a r y
h e a r in g t o b e h e ld o n F r i d a y 1 J u ly 2 0 1 6 . C h a r g e 1 .
N o n c o m p li a n c e w i t h t h e d u ti e s o f y o u r c o n tr a c t o f
10

employment.

A l t e r n a ti v e ly c o n tr a v e n ti o n o f S A B C

r u l e s a n d r e g u l a t i o n s i n t h a t y o u i n y o u r c a p a c i ty a s
a r e p o r t e r f o r r a d i o n e w s in J o h a n n e s b u r g a ll e g e d ly
li a is e d w i t h th e m e d ia t h a t is t h e S t a r o n 2 8 J u n e
2 0 1 6 T h e Ti m e s 2 8 J u n e 2 0 1 6 , E N C A l e t t e r d r a f te d
and signed by you and provided to ENCA and
News24.

Letter drafted and signed by you and

p r o v i d e d to E N C A w i th o u t h a v i n g h a d p e r m is s i o n to
d o s o . I n d o i n g s o it i s a l le g e d th a t y o u c o n tr a v e n e d
R e g u l a ti o n 2 D o f t h e S A B C ’s P e r s o n n e l R e g u l a ti o n s
20

t h a t i s a n e m p lo y e e s h a ll n o t w i t h o u t p r i o r c o n s e n t o f
t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u t iv e m a k e a n y c o m m e n t s i n th e
m e d i a o r … s h o u l d th e s e f a c ts b e p r o v e n i t w i ll
c o n s ti t u te a n a c t o f n o n c o m p li a n c e w i th t h e d u ti e s o f
your

c o n tr a c t

a l t e r n a t iv e ly

of

employment

c o n tr a v e n i n g

on

S A B C ’s

Page 102 of 177

your

part

Rules

and

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
R e g u l a ti o n s . Yo u w il l b e e n t i tl e d t o t h e fo l lo w i n g :
To

be

represented

c o r p o r a t io n

or

by

u n io n

a

co-employee

r e p r e s e n t a t iv e

of

who

is

the
an

employee of the corporation should you be a member
o f a r e c o g n is e d tr a d e u n i o n t o c a l l w i t n e s s e s to
t e s ti fy in s u p p o r t o f y o u r c a s e t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e t h e
employers’

witnesses.

To

have

access

to

d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t w il l b e u s e d b y t h e i n it ia t o r a n d
t o r e q u e s t th e s e r v ic e s o f a n in t e r p r e te r s h o u ld i t b e
10

n e c e s s a r y.

T h e d i s c i p li n a r y p a n e l w i ll c o n s i s t o f

s h o u l d y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n a g a i n s t a n y o f t h e
p a n e l m e m b e r s o r a n y o t h e r q u e r i e s i n t h is r e g a r d
y o u a r e r e q u e s t e d t o c o n t a c t th e in i ti a to r. ”
A n d th e n th e r e i s a l e t t e r w h ic h w a s a d d r e s s e d t o Mr K r i g e i n
p a r a g r a p h 2 0 o f th e j u d g m e n t . T h e j u d g e r e c o r d s t h e c o n t e n ts o f t h e
le t t e r a d d r e s s e d to M r K r i g e o n 3 0 J u n e w h ic h c o n t a i n e d a s l ig h tl y
d i ff e r e n t c h a r g e . I t r e a d :
“ Yo u a r e h e r e w i th n o t i fi e d t o a t te n d a d is c i p l i n a r y
h e a r in g to b e h e l d o n Fr i d a y 1 J u ly 2 0 1 6 a t 9 :0 0 a t
20

the

SABC

o ff ic e s

in

Johannesburg

in

order

to

in v e s t i g a t e t h e f o l l o w i n g a l le g e d o ff e n c e s b r o u g h t
a g a in s t y o u .
Charge 1:

N o n c o m p li a n c e w i t h th e d u t i e s o f y o u r

c o n tr a c t o f e m p l o y m e n t a l t e r n a t iv e l y i n s u b o r d i n a t io n ,
a l t e r n a t iv e ly i n s o l e n c e i n t h a t y o u i n y o u r c a p a c i ty a s

Page 103 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h e E x e c u t iv e P r o d u c e r R S G N e w s a n d C u r r e n t
A ff a ir s d u r i n g a r a d io n e w s li n e t a lk m e e ti n g h e l d o n
M o n d a y 2 0 J u n e 2 0 1 6 y o u a ll e g e d l y c a t e g o r ic a l ly
d is t a n c e d y o u r s e l f fr o m t h e in s tr u c ti o n i s s u e d b y t h e
S A B C M a n a g e m e n t n o t to c o v e r th e r i g h t to n o
movement

marches

in

Cape

To w n ,

Durban

and

A u k l a n d P a r k t h a t i s c a m p a ig n i n g a g a i n s t t h e S A B C ’s
d e c is i o n n o t t o b r o a d c a s t v i o l e n t p r o t e s t .

Should

t h e s e f a c ts b e p r o v e n i t w il l c o n s ti t u te a n a c t o f
10

n o n c o m p li a n c e w i t h th e d u ti e s o f y o u r c o n tr a c t o f
employment

on

in s u b o r d i n a t io n ,

your
a l t e r n a ti v e ly

part

a l t e r n a ti v e ly

in s o l e n c e .

S h o u ld

t h e s e f a c ts b e p r o v e n i t w il l c o n s ti t u te a n a c t o f
n o n c o m p li a n c e w i t h th e d u ti e s o f y o u r c o n tr a c t o f
employment

on

your

part

in s u b o r d i n a t io n , a lt e r n a tiv e l y i n s o l e n c e .

a l t e r n a ti v e ly
The panel

w i ll c o n s is t o f … y o u w il l e n t it l e d o f t h e f o l lo w in g t o
be represented by a …”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I d o n o t t h in k y o u n e e d t o …
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . Yo u d o n o t h a v e to r e a d
that part.
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e a d t h a t ja .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir th e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a ls o w i t h r e g a r d t o w h a t y o u h a v e r e a d I a m n o t
s u r e i n r e l a ti o n t o Mr M o t s o e n e n g w h y i t w o u l d b e r e l e v a n t .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Because response yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: I think Chair so as not to be seen as if I
w a s s e le c tiv e i n t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h I p u t t h o s e .

Maybe just to deal

with them.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k m a y b e w h a t M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s c o u n s e l m i g h t d o
is j u s t m a k e n o t e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f w h ic h o n e s h e w o u ld h a v e lik e d y o u t o r a i s e w i t h
10

h i m a n d t h e n la t e r o n w h e n y o u a r e d o n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e w i ll g iv e y o u t h e n o t e to lo o k a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e n w e c a n v is it t h o s e a r e a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I f y o u h a v e d i ffi c u l ty h e c a n a d d r e s s m e o r I c o u ld

a l lo w h i m t o r e - e x a m in e Mr M o t s o e n e n g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r M o t s o e n e n g t h o s e –
y o u r r e s p o n s e s t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n b e f o r e l u n c h t h a t y o u w e r e n o t
in v o lv e d i n a n y o f t h o s e d is c i p l i n a r i e s o r n o tic e s o r c h a r g e s t h o s e th a t I
r e a d t h is a f te r n o o n d o e s y o u r a n s w e r a p p l y t o t h o s e a s w e l l ?
20

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

Ye s C h a ir.

Because SABC is

g u i d e d b y i ts o w n p o l ic y. T h e r e is a p r o c e s s b e f o r e y o u c a n c h a r g e a
p e r s o n t h a t y o u n e e d t o f o ll o w.

S o I c a n o n l y c h a r g e o r d is c i p l i n e

p e o p l e w h o r e p o r t d ir e c t ly to m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o li n e m a n a g e r s a c c o r d i n g t o

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h e p o l ic y t h e y w i ll k n o w w h a t e v e r t h a t t h e y n e e d t o d o to d e a l w i t h t h a t
is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M a y I j u s t p u t b e f o r e w e
d e a l w i t h o th e r m a t te r s t h e – th e a ll e g a t i o n s a g a in s t y o u a s c o n t a i n e d
in t h e R u l e 3 . 3 N o ti c e s th a t y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m s o m e o f t h e S A B C 8
w i t n e s s e s w h o t e s t if i e d .

C h a ir is s ti ll a t C C 5 to 1 6 .

I t w il l b e C C 1 6 .

T h i s is th e e v id e n c e t h a t M r M w a b a P h ir i h a d g i v e n b e f o r e y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e f o r e y o u d o th a t I m e a n t to a s k t h i s e a r l ie r
M r M o ts o e n e n g b u t I d o n o t k n o w i f I h a v e a – I h a d a p a r ti c u la r r e a s o n
n o t t o a s k i t Yo u k n o w q u i t e a f e w ti m e s b o t h y e s t e r d a y a n d t o d a y y o u
r e fe r r e d t o t h e fa c t th a t I t h i n k y o u s a i d t h e Ac t b u t I t h i n k w e – i t i s t h e
r e g u la t io n s – IC A S A R e g u l a ti o n s p r o h ib i t e n c o u r a g i n g o r g l a m o u r i z i n g
a s i t – t h a t is t h e t e r m i t u s e s v i o l e n c e , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

J u s t i n c a s e i t m i g h t b e r e le v a n t w h a t is y o u r

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h a t th is r e g u la t io n p r o h i b i ts w h e n i t s a y s y o u m a y
20

n o t g la m o u r iz e v i o l e n c e i n e ffe c t b e c a u s e th a t is w h a t i t s a y s ? W h a t
w o u ld y o u r e g a r d a s g l a m o u r iz i n g v i o l e n c e in t h e c o n te x t o f a t e le v is i o n
s t a ti o n ?
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n I t h in k I d id a ll u d e
t o th e is s u e t h a t S o u t h A f r ic a i n c l u d i n g A fr ic a C h a ir p e r s o n i t is v e r y
i m p o r t a n t t o h a v e r o l e m o d e ls . W h e n i t t a lk s a b o u t g l a m o u r iz i n g th e s e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
v is u a ls w h a t t h e a c t d e a l w i t h is t h e i s s u e t h a t th o s e is s u e s a r e n o t in
t h e p u b l ic in t e r e s t . T h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g . T h e y a r e n o t i n th e p u b l ic
in t e r e s t . R e m e m b e r C h a i r w e q u o te d t h a t p a r a g r a p h w h e n i t c o m e s t o
– t o th a t r e g u l a ti o n s b u t th e s e r e g u l a ti o n s C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w i ll f in d
s o m e o f th e is s u e s th a t I a m r e f e r r i n g to i n B r o a d c a s t in g A c t w h a t y o u
c a l l in t h e S A B C .

S o m e o f t h e m in t h e I C A S A R e g u l a ti o n s b u t i n o n e

a c t . T h is b o o k l e t th a t I w a s h a v in g C h a ir p e r s o n .
o th e r w h a t I a m s a y i n g C h a ir p e r s o n .

S o it t a l k s t o e a c h

And I want to put it again

C h a ir p e r s o n a s w e a g r e e d C h a ir p e r s o n my u n d e r s t a n d in g s ti ll s t ic k t h e
10

same.

Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n it d o e s n o t c h a n g e i t w h a t w e h a v e a lr e a d y

b e e n d e a l in g w i t h C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e i n t e r m s o f w h a t w e a g r e e d I t h i n k w e b o t h

w o u ld s a y i f a t e l e v is i o n s t a ti o n s i m p ly s h o w s v is u a ls o f p r o – t h e
b u r n in g o f a b u il d in g , p r o p e r ty b y p r o t e s t o r s t h a t d o e s n o t o r s h o u l d n o t
o n i ts o w n c o n s ti t u t e g l a m o u r i z i n g v i o l e n c e .

I t m u s t m e a n s o m e th in g

m u c h m o r e t h a n t h a t . W h a t i t is I d o n o t k n o w b u t i t c o u l d n o t b e th a t
t h is w a s m e a n t to s a y a te le v is i o n s t a t i o n s h o u l d n o t d o t h a t.
O b v io u s ly t h e y d o it a ll t h e t i m e a n d i f I C A S A t h o u g h t th a t w a s a b r e a c h
o f t h e r e g u la t io n s a c ti o n w o u l d h a v e b e e n t a k e n a ll a l o n g .
20

So that

w o u ld b e m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f w h e r e y o u a n d I w o u ld b e o n t h is i s s u e .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n I w a n t t o s u b m i t – I
w a n t to s a y t o y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u s e e C h a ir p e r s o n l e t u s j u s t
t a lk m a y b e g e n e r a ll y b e fo r e I c a n c o m e t o t h e p o i n t C h a ir p e r s o n . W e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
s h a l l a s k o u r s e l v e s w h y m e d i a ? G e n e r a l n o t e v e n S A B C g e n e r a lly w h a t
y o u s e e o n m e d ia i s a l l n e g a ti v e s t o r i e s .

N o p o s i ti v e .

A n d e a r l ie r

C h a ir p e r s o n y o u a l lu d e d t o a v e r y i m p o r t a n t i s s u e a b o u t b a l a n c i n g a l l
t h e s e s t o r ie s . M e d i a i s n o t e v e n a t te m p t i n g to d o th a t . T h e ir a g e n d a is
t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e y p o r tr a y S o u t h A fr ic a a n d c e r t a i n i n d iv id u a l s th a t
t h e y d o n o t a g r e e w it h t h e m p o r tr a y e d t h e m i n a c e r t a i n w a y.

A ls o

p o r t r a y C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I a m t a lk i n g fr o m m y h e a r t n o w. A ls o p o r tr a y
u s a s a b la c k p e o p l e a s i f w e a r e u s e l e s s . E v e r y th i n g t h a t w e d o i s n o t
r e a l ly w h a t w e a r e s u p p o s e d t o d o . W e d o n o t k n o w t h e h o w. T h a t i s
10

h o w I s e e m e d i a C h a ir p e r s o n .

E v e r y t h i n g th a t t h e y d o e v e n if y o u

w a t c h te l e v i s i o n y o u c a n a s k y o u r o w n k i d s w h a t a r e l e a r n in g fr o m w h a t
y o u h a v e b e e n w a tc h i n g t e l e v is i o n . Yo u – i t is c r i m e – i t is a ll a b o u t
these issues.

I a m n o t s a y in g p e o p l e s h o u ld n o t r e p o r t a b o u t t h e s e

is s u e s C h a i r p e r s o n .
o u r s e lv e s ?

W h a t k i n d o f a s o c ie t y d o w e w a n t t o s e e

S o t h o s e a r e t h e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I a m a g a i n s t i t

C h a ir p e r s o n t o p u s h f o r t h e i s s u e o f g l a m o u r i z i n g t h is v i o l e n c e o r
in c i ti n g t h o s e v is u a ls it is c o r r e c t . I w a n t t o s u b m i t C h a ir p e r s o n t o y o u
it is w r o n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t I t h i n k w h a t I w a s l o o k in g a t is w h e t h e r y o u
20

a r e a b l e t o m a k e a n y c o n tr ib u ti o n t o m a y b e a b e t te r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f
w h a t t h e r e g u l a ti o n s h a v e in m i n d a s w it h y o u r e x p e r i e n c e i n jo u r n a li s m
a n d i n t h e m e d i a . W h a t th e y h a v e i n mi n d w h e n th e y s a y th o u s h a l t n o t
g l a m o u r i z e v io le n c e b e c a u s e i t c a n n o t b e o r t h a t i s h o w I s e e i t .

It

c a n n o t b e t h a t t h e m e r e s h o w in g – p r o b a b ly t h e r e m u s t b e s o m e t h in g
m u c h m o r e th a n th e m e r e s h o w in g o f w h a t h a p p e n e d .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g C h a ir p e r s o n

is y o u m a y s h o w b u t i t s h o u l d n o t b e a n o r m th a t e v e r y t i m e w h e n y o u
w a t c h t e l e v is i o n y o u w a t c h ju s t t h i s b u r n in g o f b u il d in g o r c l in ic s o r
w h a t e v e r. I m e a n w e s h a ll tr y t o b a la n c e t h e a c t C h a ir p e r s o n b u t n o t
f o r g e t ti n g i t . Yo u s h o u ld n o t s h o w e x p li c i t v is u a ls C h a ir p e r s o n th a t is
m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y th a n k y o u .

I am sorry I interrupted you Ms

Norman.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. Mr M o ts o e n e n g M r
10

M w a b a P h ir i te s ti fi e d a n d h e a ls o s u b m i tt e d a s t a t e m e n t t o t h e
c o m m i s s io n b u t I w il l j u s t r e a d th e – s u m m a r i s e w h a t h e s a id in
paragraph 1 – paragraph 6 at page MP – at page 2 of his statement. He
has a sub heading that says:
“ C h a n g e s t o E d it o r ia l P o l ic y. ”
I w ill r e a d o n p a r a g r a p h a n d I w o u l d lik e y o u to j u s t c o m m e n t s o th a t
w e s a v e ti m e .
“ W h e n P u b lic P r o te c t o r T h u l i M a d o n s e la r e le a s e d t h e
r e p o r t w h e n g o v e r n a n c e a n d e t h i c s f a il o n F e b r u a r y
1 7 , 2 0 1 4 t h e S A B C n e w s r o o m w a s h e a v il y s h r o u d e d

20

b y a fe a r t h a t t h e m a in n e w s m a k e r T h u li w o u l d n o t
b e a l lo w e d i n t o t h e s t u d i o s f o r a n y i n t e r v ie w s .

Her

r e p o r t w a s n e g a ti v e a b o u t th e S A B C C O O Mr H l a u d i
M o ts o e n e n g r e c o m m e n d i n g c o r r e c t iv e a c ti o n t o b e
done on him.”
W h a t is y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h a t ?

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n M r P h ir i I t h i n k I

k n o w h i m w h e n h e w a s a t t e n d in g i n t e r v ie w s a p p ly in g f o r G r o u p
E x e c u t iv e . T h a t is t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p t h a t I c a n I h a v e s e e n h i m . I h a v e
e n g a g e d h i m in t h a t b e c a u s e I w a s o n e o f t h e p a n e ls Mr C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e p a r t o f th e p a n e l t h a t i n t e r v ie w e d h i m ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . Ta l k i n g a b o u t
t h e i s s u e s t h a t h e is r a i s i n g – h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t I k n o w n o t h i n g a b o u t
t h o s e is s u e s . I k n o w – I d o n o t k n o w t h o s e is s u e s . E v e n C h a ir I m e a n
p e o p l e h a v e b e e n t a lk i n g a b o u t H la u d i , c r it ic in g H la u d i .
10

I have never

s a i d p e o p l e s h o u ld n o t p u t s u c h a s t o r i e s . E v e n n o t th e S A B C t h a t I a m
in c h a r g e f o r. I h a v e n e v e r fi g h t to s a y I w a n t t o b e o n t h e p l a tf o r m t o
r e s p o n d o n th e s e i s s u e s . S o i t is a n o n - i s s u e fr o m m e C h a i r p e r s o n . I
d o n o t k n o w w h a t i n f o r m s h i m t o s a y th a t b u t I d e n y s u c h a l l e g a ti o n s
C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you. And then paragraph 7.
“ G iv e n

the

fa c t

that

Mr

Motsoeneng

had

been

u n il a t e r a ll y h a n d e d r e i g n o v e r t h e S A B C E d it o r ia l b y
the

then

M i n is t e r

of

C o m m u n ic a t i o n s

M u t h a m b i a n d h i s a u t o c r a t ic a t ti t u d e .
20

Ms

F a i th

No SABC

E d it o r ia l s t a ff w a n t e d to b e in c o n fl ic t w i t h h i m . ”
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG:

A i C h a ir p e r s o n .

How do I

a n s w e r th a t ? B e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w. W h a t I k n o w fr o m S A B C t h a t is
w h y C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n m y c o u n s e l w a s s a y in g w e s h o u l d p l a y t h o s e
v is u a ls I w a s lo o k i n g t o t a k e y o u i n t o th e S A B C e x a c tly w h a t i s
h a p p e n in g w h e n I h a v e b e e n t h e r e a t th e S A B C a n d w h a t is t h e v i b e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
w i t h i n t h e S A B C b e c a u s e th e s e p e o p le t h e y p o r t r a y li e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
A n d I w a n t t o r e p e a t t h e y p o r t r a y l ie s i n t h is c o m m is s i o n a n d o u t s i d e
b e c a u s e t h a t i s w h a t – I m e a n in t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n th e y w il l t e l l
y o u t h e m o s t p e r s o n w h o i n v o lv e s s t a ff , w h o d is c u s s w it h s ta ff i t is m e .
T h e y w e r e e v e n c a l li n g m e a D o c t o r C h a ir p e r s o n .

I n t h e s t a ff o f

c a r e e r s o f t h e S A B C i f y o u a r e s ic k t h e y w o u l d s a y g o to t h a t d o c to r. S o
it c a n n o t b e c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n p e o p le c o m e a n d m i s l e a d t h e
c o m m i s s io n b u t to b e h o n e s t C h a i r p e r s o n I t h i n k t h e y a r e j u s t c r e a ti n g
v ib e i n m y o w n v i e w a n d I d o n o t w a n t t o d w e l l w i t h t h e s e is s u e s
10

b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h e is ta lk in g a b o u t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll I d o n o t k n o w w h ic h o n e o f t h e w i tn e s s e s b u t I

r e c a l l th a t a t l e a s t I t h in k o n e i t m a y b e m o r e th a n o n e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S a i d th a t y o u w e r e f e a r e d a t th e S A B C a n d y o u w e r e
v e r y i n fl u e n t ia l a s I u n d e r s t o o d i t . S o m a y b e y o u m i g h t s a y i n fl u e n ti a l
yes, feared I do not know or yes I was feared?
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

C h a ir I w i ll s u b m i t to y o u t h a t

m y v ie w a n d t h e ir v i e w t h e o n l y te s t t o te s t t h a t is f o r y o u t o v ie w t h e
v is u a ls w i t h i n S A B C . T h a t w i ll b e t h e te s t C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e I c a n
20

s a y t h is a n d t h e r e t h e y s a i d t h is b u t w h a t w i ll b e t h e t e s t ? T h e te s t is
t o g o i n s id e t h e S A B C . B u t I th in k e v e n D o c to r N g u b a n e p a r tl y h e d i d
r e s p o n d a b o u t t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n m e a n d l a b o u r i n c l u d i n g
w o r k e r s i ts e l f C h a ir p e r s o n . E v e n t o d a y C h a ir p e r s o n I a m n o t t h e ir b o s s
there.

T h e y s ti ll c a ll m e t h e ir b o s s .

E v e n to d a y.

I mean the

r e l a ti o n s h i p – i t is tr u e C h a ir – n o C h a ir p e r s o n I a m v e r y to u g h o n th e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
d e c is i o n t h a t I h a v e t a k e n b u t i t d o e s n o t m e a n th a t p e o p l e f e a r m e .
T h e y w e r e r o b u s t d e c i s i o n i n t h e S A B C w h e r e w e d is c u s s is s u e s a n d
in t e r a c ti o n w i th s t a ff i ts e l f C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o i t i s n o t tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

B u t i f C h a ir p e r s o n s o m e o n e

fear you what you going – what I am going to say?
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Yo u m a y j u s t h e a r m e b y

w a lk in g h e r e y o u f e a r m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I w a s g o i n g t o s a y w e ll y o u m i g h t n o t e v e n k n o w
if s o m e b o d y f e a r e d – f e a r s y o u .

Yo u m i g h t n o t k n o w t h e q u e s t io n is

w h e t h e r y o u h a v e d o n e a n y t h in g w r o n g t h a t m a k e s th e m f e a r y o u ?
S o m e t i m e s p e o p l e c a n h a v e a c e r t a i n a t ti t u d e to w a r d s y o u n o t b e c a u s e
y o u h a v e d o n e a n y t h in g w r o n g b u t b e c a u s e o f t h e w a y y o u a r e a n d s o
on.

A n d s o m e t i m e s y o u h a v e n o c o n tr o l o v e r o r y o u m i g h t n o t h a v e

c o n tr o l o v e r t h a t.
20

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir I a g r e e . Yo u k n o w a s
A fr ic a n s C h a ir I th i n k y o u w il l k n o w th a t e v e n s o m e p e o p l e ju s t w a lk i n
t h e r e [i n d i s t i n c t ] h e y N o m o n d o [ A fr ic a n la n g u a g e ] . It is ju s t p e r c e p ti o n
o f p e o p le C h a ir p e r s o n t o b e h o n e s t a s y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u c a n n o t r e a ll y
s a y t h i s – I m e a n if p e o p le f e a r y o u I d o n o t k n o w h o w b e c a u s e I w a s
n o t f e a r e d a t t h e S A B C I w a s e n g a g i n g t h e s t a ff o f th e S A B C .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Ye s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

A n d th e n i n

paragraph 15 he says:
“The

newsroom

was

at

ti m e

abuzz

w it h

Mr

M o ts o e n e n g ’s c l o s e ti e s w i t h Pr e s id e n t J a c o b Z u m a ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y y o u m i g h t w is h t o r a i s e y o u r v o i c e I th i n k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h I a m s o r r y C h a ir b e c a u s e I a m l o o k i n g
down.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e y o u a r e lo o k i n g d o w n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . P a r a g r a p h 1 5 s o r r y C h a ir.
“The

newsroom

was

at

ti m e

abuzz

w it h

Mr

M o ts o e n e n g ’s c lo s e t i e s w it h P r e s id e n t J a c o b Z u m a
a n d i n v i t in g a p e r s o n li k e Mr M a l e m a w a s g o i n g to b e
s e e n a s a n a ffr o n t t o o u r b o s s ’ r e p u te d r e la ti o n w i t h
President Zuma.”
D o y o u h a v e a n y r e s p o n s e to t h a t ?
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Is t h e s a m e C h a ir p e r s o n p e r s o n
20

w h o i s s a y i n g t h is .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n i t is v e r y d i ff ic u l t

t o r e s p o n d o n t h e s e i s s u e s b e c a u s e I h a v e n e v e r t a lk e d t o t h i s g u y o n
t h e E d i to r i a l i s s u e s o f t h e S A B C . S o t o b e h o n e s t I c a n j u s t d e n y
C h a ir p e r s o n .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

And then if you may then

m o v e t o th e s t a t e m e n t o f M s T h a n d e k e G q u b u l e - M b e k i .

She says at

p a r a g r a p h 6 .2 o f h e r s ta t e m e n t : S h e h a d h e a d e d 6 . 1 i s P o li t ic a l
I n t e r f e r e n c e in t h e n e w s a g e n d a a n d m a n d a te o f t h e S A B C :
“ M y d is m is s a l a n d t h a t o f th e g r o u p k n o w n a s t h e
S A B C 8 fo r t h e ir o b je c t i o n to t h e p r o t e s t p o l ic y
in tr o d u c e d b y Mr H la u d i M o ts o e n e n g f o r m e r C O O o f
t h e S A B C i n 2 0 1 6 a n d h i s c o h o r ts .

Th e E d i t o r i a l

P o lic y o f 2 0 1 6 . ”
10

W h a t is y o u r a n s w e r to t h a t ?
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MO TSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n t h e p o li c y o f th e

S A B C g o e s t h r o u g h a ll t h e p r o c e s s e s t h a t I h a v e a l lu d e d t o . Yo u r s u b c o m m i t t e e o f th e b o a r d i n c l u d i n g t h e a p p r o v a l o f t h e b o a r d .

If y o u

c h e c k t h e m i n u te s o f t h e S A B C w h ic h a r e t h e r e in t h o s e d o c u m e n ts y o u
w i ll r e a lis e t h a t i t w e n t t h r o u g h a ll t h e p r o c e s s e s . I t w a s p r e s e n te d i n
t h e b o a r d m e e ti n g b y – b e c a u s e m y j o b is t o p r e s e n t a t th e s u b c o m m i t t e e . B u t w h e n i t g o e s t o t h e b o a r d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n o f th a t s u b c o m m i t t e e o r a m e m b e r p r e s e n t s t h e p o li c y. S o i t h a s n o t h i n g t o d o i t
is n o t a H l a u d i i s s u e i t is a S A B C is s u e .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 s h e s a y s :
“ W e v i s i t e d t h e I n s p e c to r G e n e r a l o f I n t e ll i g e n c e a n d w r o t e t o h i m
D o c to r D in t w e s e v e r a l ly. W e w e r e p r o m is e d a r e p o r t b u t n e v e r r e c e iv e d
o n e . I t h a s b e e n o v e r t w o y e a r s o f c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w it h h i s o ff ic e to n o
a v a i l.

H e h o w e v e r d id te ll u s t h a t fi v e i n te ll ig e n c e a g e n ts w e r e s e n t

a n d d e p lo y e d a t t h e S A B C a t t h e r e q u e s t o f Mr M o t s o e n e n g . ”

Page 114 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
t h a t p a r a g r a p h i s m is l e a d i n g .

C h a ir p e r s o n w i t h d u e r e s p e c t

I k n o w a b o u t th e m a t te r a n d I h a v e

a l lu d e d i t i n to m y a ffi d a v i t t h a t i t is tr u e t h a t t h e y w e r e c a l l e d b e c a u s e
S A B C i t is a n a ti o n a l k e y p o i n t b u t t h e p e r s o n w r o t e a l e t te r i t w a s th e
C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e B o a r d Pr o f e s s o r M a g u v h e b e c a u s e w h e n i t c o m e s t o
s e c u r i ty a g e n t s t h e r e is a p r o c e s s .
T h e y d o n o t j u s t d o - s t a ff c a n n o t g o t h e r e to s a y h e y th is is
what I want you to do.

Th e r e a r e p r o t o c o ls t h a t t h e y m u s t fo ll o w b u t

t h e y c a m e . R e a s o n b e i n g a s a n a ti o n a l k e y p o i n t b u t th e p e r s o n w h o
10

w r o t e i t w a s P r o f e s s o r M a g u v h e . It is t r u e t h a t t h e y i n te r a c t e d w it h m e
a n d o t h e r s e n i o r m a n a g e r s w i th i n S A B C t o g e t m o r e i n f o r m a t i o n a b o u t
t h e v e t ti n g is s u e e x a m p l e .
H o w d o - h o w d o w e d e a l w i th v e t ti n g i s s u e ?

T h e p r iv a t e

c o m p a n i e s t h a t a r e w o r k i n g a t t h e S A B C w h e t h e r th e y a r e v e t t e d a n d
b y w h o . C h a ir p e r s o n th o s e w e r e - w e r e i s s u e s . N o t h i n g w r o n g a b o u t
s u c h is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n .

Th e y w e r e t h e r e b u t I c a n n o t t a lk o n - I

c a n n o t t a l k . T h e y s h o u l d t a lk t h e m s e lv e s . E v e n t h e i r fi n d i n g s a b o u t a l l
t h o s e is s u e s . I a m ju s t c l a r i f y i n g t h i s p o i n t C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d th e n I m o v e

o n t o M r J a k o b K r i g e . H is s t a t e m e n t is C C 1 2 . H e i n p a r a g r a p h 1 4 . 4 h e
r e c o r d e d t h a t a t a m e e ti n g t h a t y o u h e l d w i t h h i m w h e n y o u i n t r o d u c e d
t h is d e c i s i o n h e - h e q u e r ie d i t a n d w a n t e d t o k n o w w h e t h e r a n y
r e s e a r c h h a d b e e n d o n e b e f o r e y o u t o o k th e d e c i s i o n a n d y o u r
r e s p o n s e w a s I d o n o t b e li e v e i n r e s e a r c h .
Yo u

must

defend

th e

o r g a n is a ti o n .

Page 115 of 177

No

jo u r n a l is t

is

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
in d e p e n d e n t. T h e C O O h a s t h e f in a l r e s p o n s i b il it y f o r n e w s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t q u e s ti o n w a s n o t a b o u t t h e
- i t w a s n o t a p o l ic y is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n .

Th e is s u e o f th a t p r o g r a m

w h ic h h a p p e n e d e v e n b e f o r e d e m o c r a c y a n d y o u s h a l l a s k y o u r s e l f w h y
d o y o u h a v e a p r o g r a m t h a t h a s b e e n r u n n in g s i n c e - b e fo r e 1 9 9 5 . I t is
s t il l e v e n r u n n i n g c u r r e n tl y. I n t h e - in t h e S A B C w e a l w a y s c h a n g e t h e
p r o g r a m s b u t th is o n e i t h a s n e v e r c h a n g e d .
So we must change that program because Chairperson and
the person who is talking there if - if I remember well he was in charge
10

f o r R S G a n d I h a v e b e e n v o c a l p u b l ic a l ly s o a b o u t t h a t r a d i o s t a ti o n t o
s a y i t s e e ms a s t h is s ta t io n i t is a n i s l a n d o p e r a t i n g o u ts i d e S A B C a n d
C h a ir p e r s o n I c a n te ll y o u I d o n o t k n o w A fr ik a a n s b u t I w a s i n f o r m e d
b y J i m i M a t t h e w s a n d o t h e r p e o p l e w h o li s t e n e d t o t h a t p r o g r a m to s a y
b u t t h e r e is a p r o b l e m h e r e .
I f y o u d o n o t l is t e n to t h is R S G w e a r e g o in g t o h a v e s e r i o u s
p r o b le m s b e c a u s e i t s e e m s a s t h e y a r e n o t p a r t o f S o u t h A f r i c a . Th e y they push certain agendas.

R e m e m b e r t h e r e is t h o s e g u y s i n t h e

N o r t h e r n C a p e w h e r e t h e y a r e s a y i n g t h e y h a v e t h e ir o w n l a n d .

So

R S G I s a i d w e m u s t s ti c k a n d m o n i t o r t h e m a n d g e t i n v o l v e d . S o m y 20

m y is s u e w h e n i t c o m e s t o t h a t is s u e it h a s b e e n in f o r m e d b y
in f o r m a ti o n th a t I h a v e g o t fr o m s e n io r m a n a g e m e n t j u s t - n o t j u s t
people outside including senior management to say watch the space
t h e r e a b o u t t h a t p r o g r a m C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e I d o n o t k n o w A fr ik a a n s .
I u s e t h e i n fo r m a t i o n t h a t I h a v e g o t fr o m p e o p l e b u t
C h a ir p e r s o n t h e is s u e h e r e is p e o p l e a r e fi g h ti n g f o r e d i t o r ’s fo r u m . I

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h i n k th e y c a ll it - i f I a m c o r r e c t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

T h e y c a ll t h e - t h e p r o g r a m

E d it o r ’s …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Forum.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Forum.

M y v i e w w a s t h is

p r o g r a m y o u c a n n o t a d v e r ti s e n e w s p a p e r s a n d a ls o C h a i r p e r s o n i t is
in f o r m e d b y w h a t I h a v e b e e n s a y i n g to jo u r n a li s t s o f t h e S A B C . I s a i d
t o t h e m I w a n t t o s e e j o u r n a l is ts o f th e S A B C b e in g o n t h e s tr e e t , b e i n g
10

w i t h n e w s - n e w s m a k e r s . Yo u s h a l l n o t f o l lo w t h e n e w s p a p e r s . T h o u g h
newspapers they shall follow the SABC.
E v e n t h e a n a ly s ts C h a ir p e r s o n I s a id w h y d o y o u p r e f e r
m o s t ly a n a ly s t s fr o m o u t s i d e a n d I a m n o t s a y i n g t h e y s h a l l n o t t a l k to
a n a ly s ts fr o m o u t s i d e b u t I a m s a y i n g y o u a l s o h a v e p e o p l e i n s id e
S A B C w h o a r e c a p a b l e t o d e a l w it h t h e s e is s u e s a n d w h e n i t c o m e s to
t h is is s u e o f a n a l y s ts C h a ir p e r s o n I s a i d y o u c a n n o t u s e o n e v o ic e .
I s a i d n o I - I d is a g r e e a n d I a m n o t g o i n g t o a ll o w y o u t o u s e
o n e v o i c e . Yo u w a k e u p in t h e m o r n in g . E v e r y d a y is o n e p e r s o n w h o
is a n a ly s i n g a n d I s a id I w a n t a w o m a n i n t h o s e p r o g r a m s a n d i t d i d

20

h a p p e n C h a ir p e r s o n .

W o m e n w e r e a p p o i n te d a s a n a ly s ts i n t h o s e

p r o g r a m s b u t th is p r o g r a m C h a ir p e r s o n I s t ill b e l ie v e w e c o u ld n o t a ll o w
a program.
W h y is th is p r o g r a m u n to u c h a b l e w h e n o t h e r p r o g r a m s h a v e
b e e n c h a n g i n g C h a ir p e r s o n ?

S o m e ti m e s C h a ir p e r s o n in b r o a d c a s t in g

y o u m a y h a v e e v e n c h a n g e t h e p r o g r a m t h a t i s d o in g w e l l b e li e v i n g t h a t

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
w h a t y o u a r e g o in g to p u t is g o i n g to t a k e e v e n h i g h e r a u d ie n c e r a th e r
t h a n th a t p r o g r a m . S o i t h a s o t h e r h is to r y t h a t p r o g r a m C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I know maybe just to deal with

t h e is s u e o f n e w s p a p e r s b e c a u s e t h e y r e f e r r e d t o S A F M .

There

C h a ir p e r s o n I s a i d m y p r o b le m w i t h th e s e n e w s p a p e r s y o u p r o m o t e
t h e m e v e r y d a y i n o u r p l a t f o r m b u t t h e y d o n o t p r o m o t e u s in t h e i r o w n
p l a t fo r m .

S o w e c a n n o t a d v e r t is e f o r th e m .

Th a t i s w h e r e r o w - r o w

C h a ir p e r s o n - I c a n h e a r p e o p le C h a ir p e r s o n . I s a y r o w - r o w.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Is i t n o t h i s n a m e ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: No Chairperson.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w h a t is - w h a t i s r o w - r o w ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : R o w - r o w is lik e c h a o s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t i s lik e c h a o s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s r o w - r o w is lik e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a n s e e h o w b a d I a m w it h - w i t h c e r ta in …
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I t is li k e c h a o s b e c a u s e t h i s -

t h e s e j o u r n a li s t - t h e s e p e o p le t h e y w e r e f ig h ti n g f o r th e s e n e w s p a p e r s
t o b e p r o m o te d . T h e y e v e n w e n t a n d h a d - a n d C h a ir p e r s o n I a m n o t a
r a c is t - t o m o b il is e o t h e r W h i t e p e o p l e t o o p p o s e t h is d e c is io n b u t I
c o u l d n o t a l lo w t h e s i t u a t io n w h e r e y o u h a v e a p r o g r a m t h a t h a s b e e n

Page 118 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
there before 1995. I mean all the programs has changed.
E v e r y th i n g h a s c h a n g e d a t th e S A B C w h y y o u h a v e t h i s R S G
o p e r a ti n g a s if i t i s a n is la n d . Yo u c a n s e e C h a ir p e r s o n e v e n y o u r s e l f
p e o p l e w h e n t h e y w e r e t a lk i n g - w h e n t h e y w e r e h e r e .
c h e c k t h e b a c k g r o u n d o f t h e p e o p le .

We must also

What they stand for?

a g e n d a t h e y a r e p u s h i n g w it h in t h e o r g a n is a ti o n .

What

W e a r e a p u b l ic

b r o a d c a s t e r.
E v e r y o n e s h a ll a l i g n t o w h a t w e a r e s a y i n g C h a i r p e r s o n a n d
t h a t i s n o t l ik e d ic ta t in g …
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : To p e o p l e b u t I a m a c c o u n t a b l e .
I must account.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e h e s a y s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 .1

t h a t a t a p r e - e l e c ti o n w o r k s h o p t h a t y o u a l l a t t e n d e d th is is w h a t y o u
said.
“The

SABC

is

in d e p e n d e n t.

i n d e p e n d e n t.

No

There

agenda

is

an

i n d i v id u a l
for

is
th e

c o r p o r a t io n d r iv e n b y th r e e d ir e c to r s , t h e C E O ,
COO and CFO.
20

D o n o t f o c u s o n n e g a t iv e s t o r ie s .

I m p o r ta n t t h a t y o u b a la n c e s t o r ie s .
s t o r ie s .

Is

p o l i tic i a n s

not

Te ll h u m a n

human

Reporters at SABC do not want the world.
t h e y r e p o r t t h e y m is l e a d li s t e n e r s .

beings?
When

G o t o A m e r ic a

t h e r e is p o v e r ty. T h e y d o n o t s h o w i t . Th e y d o n o t
show when the soldiers die.

I w il l t a k e y o u t o t h e

Page 119 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
B R I C S c o u n tr i e s .

We can go to a hotel.

s e e S o u t h A fr ic a is b e t te r.
P o lic y.

Yo u w il l

Look at your Editorial

W e h a v e r e m o v e d n e w s a n d r e p l a c e d w it h

c o n te n t . I f y o u a s S A B C m e s s u p t h e o r g a n is a t i o n
y o u m e s s u p y o u r l i fe .

I am in charge.

N e w s is

n o w p a r t o f o p e r a t i o n s . W e c h a n g e th e w o r l d . W e
m u s t h a v e n e w s w i t h c o n t e n t . I a m i n c h a r g e . Yo u
m u s t a d h e r e t o my i n s tr u c ti o n .

Pr e s id e n t Zu m a is

t h e Pr e s id e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y. I d o n o t r e g a r d h i m a s
10

A N C . Yo u c a n n o t tr e a t h i m th e s a m e . W e w i ll g iv e
h i m m o r e t i m e a n d y o u c a n q u e s ti o n e v e r y o n e
M a n ta s h e e t a l e x c e p t o u r P r e s id e n t .
r e s p e c t h i m e s p e c i a l ly y o u S A B C .

W e n e e d to

I expected you

t o a li g n y o u w i t h m y in s t r u c t i o n . ”
D i d y o u s a y t h a t o r d o y o u r e c a l l s a y i n g t h a t?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t a d v o c a te is

r e a d in g - A d v o c a t e N o r m a n - is c o r r e c t . W h e n i t c o m e s - I th i n k w h a t is
k e y t h e r e C h a i r p e r s o n if y o u - y o u l is t e n i t is - I s a i d b a la n c e w h i c h a ll
o f u s I th i n k w e a r e - w e a r e in a g r e e m e n t a n d I w a n t to c l a r i fy
20

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I k n o w P r e s id e n t Zu m a b u t h e is n o t m y fr ie n d . S o I
a m n o t c l o s e t o h i m li k e p e o p l e s a y in g I a m c l o s e t o P r e s i d e n t Z u m a .
I - I n o w h i m C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I h a v e b e e n i n s t r u g g l e
C h a ir p e r s o n .

S o m e p e o p l e t h e y w i ll n e v e r - t h e y d o n o t k n o w t h is

b e c a u s e I d o n o t b r a g a b o u t i t b u t m in e b e h i n d th e s c e n e C h a ir p e r s o n .
T h a t is w h y p e o p le t h e y d o n o t k n o w a b o u t t h e s e is s u e s .

Page 120 of 177

So

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n it c o m e s t o P r e s i d e n t Z u m a I fo ll o w t h i s A c t n o t h i m
a n y i n d iv id u a l .
T h e r e w e r e t i m e s w h e r e m e d i a a n d S A B C g e n e r a l ly th e y w e r e
c a l li n g h i m n a m e s o n li v e p r o g r a m s .

I s a i d t o th e m w h e t h e r y o u l ik e

P r e s i d e n t Z u m a o r y o u d o n o t lik e h i m h e is t h e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e
c o u n tr y b u t e v e n i f y o u d o n o t l ik e h i m m i n d y o u r l a n g u a g e . I t is v e r y
i m p o r t a n t.

R e s p e c t h i m a s th e Pr e s id e n t .

I w i ll s a y t h e s a m e t o y o u

D e p u ty C h ie f J u s t ic e i f th e p e o p l e u s e w r o n g la n g u a g e .
I w i ll s a y d o n o t u s e t h is l a n g u a g e . I t is n o t a c c e p t a b l e a n d I
10

a m o n r e c o r d e v e n o n th e p u b lic p l a t fo r m s C h a i r p e r s o n d e a l in g w i t h t h e
is s u e o f t h e la n g u a g e a n d d e a li n g w i t h th e is s u e C h a ir I k n o w a d v o c a t e
d i d n o t p u t t h is q u e s ti o n t o m e a b o u t - d u r i n g t h e - t h e w o r k s h o p e l e c ti o n s w o r k s h o p .

I s a id t o th e m y o u s e e y o u m u s t m a k e s u r e t h a t

t h e r e i s d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n th e Pr e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y a n d t h e
President of the ANC.
T h e r e is a d i ffe r e n c e C h a ir p e r s o n . W h e n y o u - y o u d e a l w i t h
y o u r o w n A N C i s s u e s in L i t h u l i H o u s e n o w t h a t h e a d i s A N C b u t w h e n
y o u d e a l w i t h t h e c o u n tr y y o u a r e t h e P r e s id e n t o f th e c o u n tr y. T h is i s
w h a t I - I w a s s a y i n g t o - a t w o r k s h o p b u t t h e is s u e t h e r e C h a i r p e r s o n I
20

s a i d to th e m th e Pr e s id e n t o f t h e c o u n tr y h e m u s t a c c o u n t t o t h e p u b li c
b e c a u s e p e o p l e a r e r a is i n g is s u e s b e c a u s e w e a r e g o i n g fo r e l e c t io n s .
They are not asking ANC.

T h e y r a is i n g th e is s u e s a b o u t

G o v e r n m e n t . T h e s a m e s e r v i c e d e liv e r y. I s a id h e m u s t b e g iv e n m o r e
ti m e o n t h o s e i s s u e s to e x p la i n a n d n o t b e c a u s e i t is Z u m a . E v e n w h e n
I w a s E x e c u ti v e P r o d u c e r d u r i n g P r e s id e n t T h a b o M b e k i I d i d t h e s a m e

Page 121 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
thing

Chairperson.

Even

when

I

was

j o u r n a l is t

during

P r e s i d e n t M a n d e la .
I d id t h e s a m e t h i n g .

L e t t h e m e x p la in .

So I am the

P r e s i d e n t o f t h e A fr ic a n C o n t e n t M o v e m e n t t o d a y C h a ir p e r s o n .
accept that.

I s ti ll

I c a n n o t g e t ti m e e q u a l ly s o w i th P r e s i d e n t R a m a p h o s a

e v e n n o w. I s ti ll a c c e p t th a t . S o t h a t w a s t h e is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n t o s a y
s e p a r a t e A N C is s u e s a n d G o v e r n m e n t i s s u e s a n d I e v e n m a d e a n
e x a m p l e w i t h t h e s a m e p e o p le o f t h e A N C t h e f o r m e r S e c r e t a r y G e n e r a l
M i n is t e r G w e d e M a n ta s h e
10

in c l u d i n g

P r e s id e n t Zu m a

and

said

but

e q u a l ly r e m e m b e r th is o n e i s r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e c o u n t r y.
Yo u c a n n o t g iv e t h e m e q u a l t i m e C h a ir p e r s o n . N o t h in g w r o n g
about it.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s a n d t h e n M s K r i v a n i P i ll a y fr o m

p a r a g r a p h s 1 5 t o 1 8 . I w il l j u s t s u m m a r is e w h a t s h e s a i d b e c a u s e y o u
h a v e t o u c h e d u p o n th e E d i t o r ’s F o r u m .

That you removed a program

t h a t h a d b e e n t h e r e s i n c e 1 9 9 4 a n d s h e - s h e a l le g e - a ll e g e d th a t y o u
d i d t h a t u n il a te r a lly a n d b y d o in g s o s h e s a y s y o u s il e n c e d t h e d i v e r s i t y
of views.
Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y to u c h e d o n th is s li g h t l y b u t c o u ld y o u ju s t
20

d ir e c t ly r e s p o n d t o it ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

N o w b y c a n c e l li n g t h e p r o g r a m

t h a t I b e li e v e i t h a s b e e n p u s h i n g a p a r t h e i d v ie w s o n th e S A B C .
c a n n o t b e c o m p a r e d b y m e s il e n c in g v ie w s .

It

I n a n y c a s e C h a ir p e r s o n

ju s t t o d e m o n s tr a te I s a i d to t h e S A B C p e o p l e a n d I m a k e a n e x a m p le .
I s a i d i f t h e M i n i s te r is g o in g t o u n v e il t h e h o u s e s - b u il d i n g o f th e

Page 122 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
houses that project.
T h e r e a r e s t o r i e s w it h in p e o p le . Yo u g o a n d in t e r v ie w t h e m .
T h e v o ic e s o f t h e p e o p l e .

T h is is w h a t t h e B r o a d c a s t i n g A c t s a y s .

I

s a i d ( i n d is ti n c t) b u t g o a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u d o a n d y o u t a lk t o
people.

I t c a n b e - I w a s m a k in g s u r e t h a t I s il e n c e d t h e v i e w s o f

people.

I a m t h e m o s t p e r s o n C h a ir p e r s o n .

W h e n y o u t a lk a b o u t

c o n te n t t h a t is w h a t I s t a n d fo r.
T h e v o ic e o f o r d i n a r y c i tiz e n s o f S o u t h A f r ic a .

T h a t is

m is le a d i n g .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . M a y b e i f y o u c o u ld ju s t g o
b a c k to y o u r s t a te m e n t n o w. S o r r y w e h a v e n o t b e i n g th e r e …
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Hm.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : E a r li e r t o d a y b u t it is C C 3 0 .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: I am comfortable …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Yo u a r e c o m f o r ta b le , a lr ig h t .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Advocate.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Because I would not want you to say I had
s k i p p e d - I h a v e m a r k e d m o s t o f y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n
g o e s r i g h t u p to - I w il l te ll y o u n o w. S o r r y C h a ir.

20

I f I m a y ju s t ta k e

him …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

A r e - a r e y o u d o n e w i t h p u t ti n g t o h i m w h a t

s o m e o f t h e w i tn e s s e s s a i d ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e v e r s io n s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h , o k a y.

W h il e y o u a r e lo o k in g f o r w h e r e y o u w i ll

c o n ti n u e fr o m …

Page 123 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : W h e r e w e l e f t o ff fr o m y e s te r d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m e n ti o n th is M r M o ts o e n e n g w h ic h I h a v e - w h ic h I
h a v e ju s t s e e n i n - i n th e b o o k le t t h a t i s t i t le d S A B C E d i t o r i a l P o li c i e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: At page 13 of that document and it is at page 30 in
the bundle.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON: EXHIBIT CC17 to …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: 17 and 18.
CHAIRPERSON:

To C C 1 8 i n r e l a ti o n t o - w e g o b a c k t o th e is s u e o f

v is u a ls f o r v i o le n c e a n d s o o n . I t s a y s h e r e :
“ I n a d d it i o n t o t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts o f t h e C o d e t h e
S A B C ’s p o li c y o n v io l e n c e is a s f o ll o w s . ”
A n d t h e n i t h a s g o t b u ll e t p o in ts . I w i ll n o t r e a d a l l o f t h e m
b u t I w i ll r e a d t w o . T h e fir s t o n e fr o m t h e t o p a n d t h e s e c o n d o n e fr o m
t h e b o t t o m . T h e f ir s t o n e fr o m th e t o p s a y s - in o th e r w o r d s i t s a y s :
“ T h e S A B C ’s p o l ic y o n v i o l e n c e is … ”
20

B u ll e t p o i n t o n e :
“ To

broadcast

programs

or

scenes

c o n t a i n in g

i m a g e s o f v i o le n c e i f t h e y a r e n e e d e d i n o r d e r t o
p o r t r a y l e g i ti m a t e i n fo r m a ti o n o r c o n te x t . ”
I th o u g h t I w o u l d j u s t m e n t i o n t h a t t h is is s o m e th i n g t h a t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON: We did not touch on it but it seems that it would be w e d i d n o t q u o te it b e f o r e b u t i t s e e m s th a t i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t s h o u ld
b e t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t t o g e t h e r w i t h w h a te v e r w e d e a l t w i t h e a r li e r
about …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p o l ic y.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Can I - with due …
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to say something?
10

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

R e s p e c t C h a ir.

Can I ask you

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A g a i n to r e p e a t w h a t is t h e r e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I t s a y s - t h is is l ik e i n - i n b o ld .
“ I n a d d it i o n t o t h e r e q u i r e m e n ts o f t h e C o d e t h e
S A B C ’s p o li c y o n v io l e n c e is a s f o ll o w s . ”
B u ll e t p o i n t o n e :
“ To

broadcast

programs

or

scenes

c o n t a i n in g

i m a g e s o f v i o le n c e i f t h e y a r e n e e d e d i n o r d e r t o
p o r t r a y l e g i ti m a t e i n fo r m a ti o n o r c o n te x t . ”

20

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Yo u a r e r e a d i n g fr o m t h e p o li c y
C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 125 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Of the SABC.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I t h i n k C h a ir t h e p o l ic y c a n n o t

o v e r r id e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: The Act.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I

would

th a t

submit

C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t is w h y my d e c i s i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o m e t i m e s I w il l n o t fo ll o w th e t h e p o li c y b e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h a t p o l ic y is n o t a l ig n e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

W it h t h e A c t C h a ir p e r s o n a n d

b e f o r e I fo r g e t C h a ir p e r s o n a l t h o u g h it is n o t r e l e v a n t t o t h e is s u e s t h a t
20

you …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Bu t I just need to deal with the
p o li c y g e n e r a ll y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

We

Page 126 of 177

-

w i th i n

the

SABC

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e p r o b l e m w i t h i n t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n w h y w e h a v e
b e e n h a v i n g a l l t h e s e o t h e r p r o b l e m s is o u r p o l ic y is n o t e v e n a li g n e d
w i t h t h e b u s i n e s s o f th e S A B C b e c a u s e e v e n w h e n y o u a r e t a l k i n g
a b o u t a d v e r ti s i n g p o s t C h a ir p e r s o n a n d s o y o u a l lu d e d t o t h e is s u e th a t
t h e r e m u s t b e a p o li c y g u id e d w h e th e r th e a d v e r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A n d t h e a p p o i n t m e n ts …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
10

B u t m o s t o f t h e S A B C p o li c i e s

C h a ir p e r s o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t w h ic h w e d e a l t w i t h w h e n i
was there.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : It w a s t o a l i g n t h e p o l ic y to ta lk
t o b u s in e s s .

O n e e x a m p le C h a ir p e r s o n t h e p o l ic y w il l s a y y o u n e e d

t h r e e q u o ta t io n s t o - t o a c q u ir e t h e r i g h t s fr o m F IFA . H o w m a n y FI FA’s
d i d w e h a v e ? T h e r e is o n l y o n e . S o y o u c a n n o t h a v e t h r e e q u o t a ti o n s .
I a m j u s t g i v i n g e x a m p le a n d d e m o n s tr a ti n g t h a t th e p o lic y o f S A B C it
20

m u s t b e a l i g n e d w i th i t s o w n b u s i n e s s a n d I k n o w t h a t is i n fo r m e d b y
Tr e a s u r y R e g u l a ti o n s C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I w a s s a y i n g to th e S A B C i n t h i s
- m a t t e r s lik e t h is w e n e e d e x e m p t io n fr o m Tr e a s u r y b e c a u s e y o u
c a n n o t g e t t h r e e q u o t a ti o n s a n d i f y o u d o n o t g e t t h r e e q u o t a ti o n s i t is
ir r e g u l a r b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t y o u r p o l ic y s a y s . S o t h o s e a r e - a r e ju s t
is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I w a s …

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S a y in g t h e - t h e p o l ic y o f S A B i t
s h o u l d b e a li g n e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: With the Act.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s e e I t h in k y o u s e e m t o a s s u m e t h a t w h a t t h e
p o li c y s a y s h e r e w h ic h I h a v e r e a d is n e c e s s a r ily i n c o n fl ic t w i th w h a t
w e r e a d e a r l i e r o n . S a y i n g d o n o t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : G l a m o r is e .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . D o n o t g la m o r i s e …
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Vi o l e n c e .

I t d o e s n o t s e e m t o m e t h a t i t is

n e c e s s a r i ly i n c o n fli c t b e c a u s e t h i s o n e d o e s n o t s a y y o u m a y
b r o a d c a s t s c e n e s c o n t a i n i n g i m a g e s o f v i o l e n c e a s y o u li k e .

It does

n o t s a y y o u c a n d o t h a t w il ly - n i ll y.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It s a y s :
“It should

be

b r o a d c a s t i f o r t h e y s h o u ld

be

b r o a d c a s t th o s e s c e n e s o f v i o l e n c e i f t h e y a r e
20

n e e d e d i n o r d e r t o p o r tr a y l e g i ti m a t e i n f o r m a ti o n
and context.”
S o i t m i g h t n o t s a y e x a c t ly t h e s a m e t h i n g b u t i t is n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly I th in k i n c o n f lic t b e c a u s e w h a t …
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t t h i s s a y s i t s e e m s t o e m p h a s is e t h a t t h e r e m u s t

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
be some legitimacy in the information you want to put up out there or
t h e c o n te x t .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir I a g r e e w i t h - I a g r e e
w i t h y o u C h a ir b u t n o t th e u n l a w f u l o n e . A s t h e A c t s a y s C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Like you were saying earlier

C h a ir p e r s o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W h e r e y o u w e r e s a y in g - I w a s
10

t a lk in g a b o u t t h e p h y s ic a li ty …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : O f t h o s e v is u a ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k i t w i ll t a lk t o s u c h is s u e
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b u t r e m e m b e r w e m a d e t h e d is t in c t i o n b e t w e e n

t h e fa c t t h a t a ll o f u s - m a n y p e o p l e w i ll s a y t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o
20

d e s tr u c ti o n o f p r o p e r ty.

T h e r e s h o u l d b e n o b u r n in g o f p r o p e r t y

b e c a u s e t h a t i s u n l a w fu l .
T h e r e s h o u ld b e n o d e b a t e a b o u t t h a t a n d t h e n th e o n l y t h i n g
w e a r e lo o k i n g a t i s , is t h e r e a t i m e w h e n i t is u n la w f u l o r c o n tr a r y to
t h e p o lic y o f th e S A B C o r t h e r e g u la t io n s t o s h o w v is u a ls o f t h e b u r n i n g
o f p r o p e r t y a n d d e s tr u c t io n o f p r o p e r ty a n d w h a t w e l o o k e d a t e a r li e r o n

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in - i n t e r m s o f t h e R e g u l a ti o n s o f IC A S A w a s s a y i n g i t is n o t a ll o w e d t o
g l a m o r is e v i o l e n c e a n d y o u r e m e m b e r e a r li e r o n w e ta lk e d a b o u t w h a t
y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g i s o f - o f th a t a n d t h i s s a y s n o w t h e p o l ic y o f t h e
S A B C i s t h a t s c e n e s o f v i o l e n c e m a y b e b r o a d c a s t b u t t h e r e is a
c o n d i ti o n to i t t h a t is i f t h e y a r e n e e d e d i n o r d e r t o p o r tr a y l e g i ti m a t e
in f o r m a ti o n a n d c o n t e x t .
S o - s o I a m s i m p ly s a y in g m a y b e a s y o u li s t e n to i t y o u
m i g h t t a k e t h e v i e w th a t i t i s in c o n f li c t w i t h t h e - t h e p r o h ib i ti o n t h a t
w e t a lk e d a b o u t e a r li e r w h ic h s a y s d o n o t g l a m o r is e b u t i t d o e s n o t
10

a p p e a r t o m e t h a t it is n e c e s s a r ily in c o n f lic t . T h e y m ig h t a ll b e g o in g
t h e s a m e d ir e c t io n b u t m a y b e o n e g o e s f u r t h e r t h a n t h e o th e r.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k C h a ir I w ill s u b m i t t h a t i t
a ls o t a l k s t o m y is s u e a b o u t w h a t k i n d o f v is u a ls b e c a u s e e v e r y t h i n g
t h a t y o u d o i t s h a l l b e i n t h e p u b l ic i n t e r e s t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Thank you.

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Th e r e is

ju s t a f e w p a r a g r a p h s in s o m e o f t h e p a g e s a n d I w il l m e n ti o n t h o s e
p a r a g r a p h s w h ic h w e d i d - w e h a v e n o t ju s t u p o n . Fo r i n s t a n c e t h e r e is
y o u r e v i d e n c e a t p a g e 9 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. Yo u a r e b a c k t o h is s ta t e m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B a c k t o t h e s t a te m e n t C h a ir. C C 3 0 - 3 - 0
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y. I t h in k I n e e d to g e t t h i s o u t o f t h e w a y …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: And yes.

Page 130 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e o f h is … ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C C 3 0 C h a ir p a g e 9 .
CHAIRPERSON: Page 9?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN

SC:

M r M o ts o e n e n g

your

with

Yo u
own

deal

in

d i s c i p l in a r y

those

paragraphs

hearing

before

A d v o c a t e E tl in g a s y o u s a y a n d t h e n y o u m e n ti o n a f e w e m p l o y e e s t h a t
10

w h e n y o u d e a l w i th t h e a ll e g a t io n th a t y o u h a d p u r g e d s o m e s t a ff
m e m b e r s w i t h i n t h e S A B C a n d t h e n th e f i r s t p e r s o n t h a t y o u d e a l w it h
is M r D i p h o k o . W h a t - w h a t d o y o u s a y a b o u t th a t in r e fe r e n c e - s o r r y t o t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n I w a n t t o r e p e a t

a g a in I - I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h e f i n d i n g s o f t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r
b e c a u s e M o n t le n y a n e D ip h o k o C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I w a s in d is c i p l in e
a n d th e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r d i r e c t i n g S A B C t o d is c i p l in e m e w h ic h t h e y d i d
it w a s o n ly t u r n e d b y t h e c o u r t .

M o n t l e n y a n e D i p h o k o c a m e t o th e

d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g u n d e r o a th p u b li c a ll y s o a n d s a i d I a m s h o c k e d .
20

I h a v e n e v e r b e e n i n t h a t O ffi c e o f t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r.

I

h a v e n e v e r b e e n i n te r v i e w e d b y t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. I a m n o t t h e o n e
w h o s a id H la u d i p u r g e d m e b e c a u s e h e h a s n e v e r p u r g e d m e . I t h i n k I
d o n o t w a n t t o t a k e i t lo n g C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e t e s t i m o n y i s t h e r e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

A n d M o n t l e n y a n e C h a ir p e r s o n

is j u s t o n e o f t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : M o s t o f t h e m th e y s a i d n o t h e y
have never been there.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s a n d - a n d y o u a ls o d e a l t w i t h M r - is i t
Mr Bernard Koma?
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to mention something.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I

think

there

are

at

least

two

areas

where

M r M o ts o e n e n g in s e n t e n c e s u s e d t w o n e g a t iv e s w i t h t h e r e s u l t th a t I
t h i n k w h a t w a s s a id is n o t w h a t h e in t e n d e d t o s a y b u t …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: He said.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s - th is h a p p e n s a n d i t i s n o t a b o u t E n g lis h . I h e a r
a l o t o f p e o p l e s p e a k i n g i s i Z u l u a n d t h e y p u t tw o n e g a ti v e s . T h e y - a n d
20

it d o e s n o t w o r k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 3 2 h e s a y s :
“ I n t h e s a id i n q u ir y M o n tl e n y a n e D i p h o k o a tt r i b u t e d
h is d e p a r t u r e fr o m t h e S A B C t o Mr P h il M o l e fe a n d
h e - h e v e h e m e n t ly d e n i e d th a t I n e v e r - I w a s

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
n e v e r i n v o lv e d i n h is p u r g in g . ”
S o i t is tw o n e g a t iv e s …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h y e s , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h i n k w h a t y o u m e a n is h e s a i d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B u t i t is n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n e v e r i n v o lv e d b u t w h e n y o u s a y …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The way it reads.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d e n ie d …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t I w a s n e v e r in v o l v e d .

It means you say he

d e n ie d t h a t y o u w e r e n o t i n v o l v e d . M e a n i n g h e s a i d y o u w e r e i n v o lv e d
but as I say …
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG: I - I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h a p p e n s i n - e v e n i n i s i Z u l u . I h e a r a l o t o f p e o p le
a n d t h e y - it g o e s w h e r e t h e y d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d .

T h e y - t h e y t h in k

h a v e s a id t h e r i g h t t h i n g b u t i t is t w o n e g a t iv e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e n in n e w s in is i Z u lu . Yo u li s te n y o u s a y o k a y o r
e v e w h e n p e o p le a r e j u s t s p e a k i n g t h e y c o m b in e tw o n e g a tiv e s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w w h a t th e y a r e tr y i n g t o s a y b u t th e y a r e n o t
s a y in g t h e r ig h t th i n g …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t I t h i n k y o u m e a n t h e s a id t h a t y o u w e r e n o t

in v o lv e d .

Page 133 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d I th in k t h e o th e r o n e is in - o n p a r a g r a p h 3 6

where you said:
“ B e r n a r d K o m a a ls o d is p u t e d t h a t I n e v e r p u r g e d
him.”
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I t h i n k y o u m e a n t h e d is p u t e d th a t y o u p u r g e d h i m

b e c a u s e h e s a id …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t in v o lv e d in p u r g in g h i m .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a ir I h a v e s k ip p e d

ju s t a f e w p a g e s b e fo r e th a t . P a g e s 5 , s i x , s e v e n , e i g h t b e c a u s e t h e y
d e a l w i t h M u l t iC h o i c e . S o I w o u ld r a t h e r d e a l w i t h th a t la s t - w i t h y o u r
le a v e . Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: At paragraph 39 - 39 and 40 there you - oh
s o r r y. ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ye s , y e s C h a ir.

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 134 of 177

So- sorry

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

Ye s C h a ir, s o r r y C h a ir,

C h a ir p e r s o n I th i n k th is is th e o p p o r t u n i ty t o m e to c l a r i f y is s u e s , I w a n t
t o e la b o r a t e o n t h is is s u e o f p u r g in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Of purging?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ye s , s t a ff o f t h e S A B C .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

B e c a u s e i t ’s th e c r e a ti o n o f

t h e p u b lic p r o te c to r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

B u t t h e tr u th C h a i r p e r s o n I

h a v e s u b m it t e d e v e n t h e r e s o l u ti o n s o f th e B o a r d a n d a l l – a n d I w a s
n o t e v e n i n v o lv e d C h a ir p e r s o n , I h a v e g iv e n t h o s e m a t te r s i n my
a ffi d a v i t a n d I a t ta c h s u c h r e s o l u ti o n s , a n d th o s e p e o p le C h a i r p e r s o n
t h e y d id n o t c o m p l a i n a b o u t m e , t h e ir a ffi d a v i t s w il l e x p la i n t h a t, s o
t h a t ’s w h y C h a ir p e r s o n I a m s a y i n g I t h in k t h i s C o m m is s i o n is v e r y
i m p o r t a n t, f o r a l l o f u s i n S o u t h A fr ic a , b e c a u s e s o m e o f u s w h o h a d
b e e n p u n i s h e d I t h in k t h e y c a n e v e n k il l u s b u t fo r n o r e a s o n s
C h a ir p e r s o n , w h e n i t i s n o t tr u e , b e c a u s e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r O ffic e r
C h a ir p e r s o n is a v e r y c r it ic a l a n d i m p o r t a n t f o r a ll o f u s , b u t w h e n a
20

P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r c o m e w i t h s u c h d e c i s i o n s a n d w e a r e p u n is h e d b e fo r e
s h e is a P u b li c P r o t e c t o r h e r v i e w s t a n d s . C h a i r p e r s o n i t s h o u ld n o t b e
a l lo w e d , b e c a u s e i t p a i n s u s , b e c a u s e r e a li ty i s C h a ir p e r s o n t h e
a ffi d a v i ts a r e t h e r e , p e o p l e a r e s a y in g w e h a v e n e v e r b e e n a s k e d , b u t
y o u s h o u l d a s k y o u r s e l f C h a ir p e r s o n w h y th e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r c a m e
w i t h s u c h a r e m e d i a l a c ti o n t o d e s tr o y o u r l iv e s a n d d e s tr o y o u r

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
c h i l d r e n ’s liv e s . I t h in k i t is u n f a ir C h a ir p e r s o n .
I j u s t w a n t to c o m m e n t o n t h i s is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e e v e n
t h e S I U C h a ir p e r s o n , I a m i n c o u r t t o d a y w i t h th e m , a n d I a m s a y in g
C h a ir p e r s o n th e y h a v e t a r n is h e d m y n a m e , t a in t e d m y n a m e , n o t e v e n
d o i n g in v e s ti g a t io n , u s i n g th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r ’s r e p o r t , w h ic h is w r o n g
C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e m o n e y t h a t t h e y a r e c l a i m i n g th e y a r e n o t
g o i n g t o w in th a t C h a i r p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e r e w e k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d .
The resolutions of the Board even people who were not there but they
are
10

a b u s in g

t h e ir

power

and

abusing

the

t a x p a y e r ’s

m o n e y.

C h a ir p e r s o n w e m u s t d e a l w it h t h e s e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n , t h e r e a s o n
w h y C h a i r p e r s o n I d o n ’t e v e n w a n t t o d e f e n d , e v e n i f m y i s s u e s w e r e
t h e y w r o n g o r r ig h t , i t is ju s t t h a t w e m u s t t e ll t h e tr u t h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

A n d th e tr u th m u s t p r e v a il

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

A n d a g a i n y o u q u a li fy t h a t th e P u b l ic

P r o t e c t o r y o u r e f e r to is th e p r e v i o u s P u b li c P r o t e c t o r ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a n k y o u v e r y

m u c h , y e s , I d o n ’ t w a n t t o b e in tr o u b l e h e r e , it i s t h e p r e v i o u s o n e
20

C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

( l a u g h i n g ) y o u m e a n y o u a r e i n tr o u b le e n o u g h w i t h

t h e p r e v i o u s o n e , y o u d o n ’ t w a n t t o b e i n tr o u b le w i t h th is o n e .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n I a m v e r y c a r e fu l

these days.
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( l a u g h in g ) o k a y.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. T h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 3 9

a n d 4 0 y o u e m p h a s iz e t h e p o i n t t h a t th e S A B C 8 t h e y w e r e c h a r g e d f o r
m is c o n d u c t m o s t ly fo r b r i n g i n g t h e S A B C i n to d is r e p u te b y y o u r
s u p e r i o r a n d n o t y o u , a n d e v e n t h e C o u r t c o u l d n o t f in d y o u r
in v o lv e m e n t , t h a t ’s w h a t y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h 3 9 .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

O k a y, a n d t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 4 0 y o u s a y

t h e s o - c a ll e d S A B C 8 w a s c h a r g e d fo r t a lk i n g t o t h e m e d ia w i th o u t
p e r m is s io n .
10

W h a t i s a m a z in g is th a t t h e C o u r t h a d o r d e r e d S A B C t o

t a k e t h e m b a c k b u t i n m y c a s e I w a s d is m i s s e d fo r t h e s a m e r e a s o n .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , t h e n i n p a r a g r a p h 4 2 t h i s i s w h e r e

n o w y o u d e a l w i t h t h e v io l e n t p r o t e s ts p o l ic y, f r o m p a r a g r a p h 4 2 w e
h a v e d e a lt w i t h t h is e x t e n s iv e ly w i t h t h e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I a m n o t s u r e
w h e t h e r y o u w a n t to a d d a n y t h i n g m o r e b u t t h o s e t h r e e p a g e s t h e y d e a l
w i t h t h a t is s u e , e x c e p t fo r p a r a g r a p h 4 9 w h e r e y o u r c o m p l a in t s e e ms t o
b e d i ff e r e n t b e c a u s e n o w i t is d ir e c t e d a t t h e S C A j u d g e s , I d o n ’ t k n o w
w h e t h e r y o u w a n t to d e a l w i t h t h a t b u t C h a ir w e d i d a l e r t J u s t ic e N a v s a
t o t h i s p a r a g r a p h t e le p h o n ic a l ly.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

C h a ir p e r s o n w i th d u e r e s p e c t

t o C h a ir p e r s o n I b e li e v e th a t J u d g e N a v s a w e n t b e y o n d t h e f a c ts i n
fr o n t o f h i m , b u t t h e r e w e r e o t h e r ju d g e s , I a m j u s t s a y i n g , b e c a u s e h e
is t h e o n e w h o h a s w r i tt e n j u d g m e n t , b y t a r n is h in g m e a b o u t th e is s u e
o f m a tr ic , i n m y v i e w h e w a s i n fl u e n c i n g t h e d e c i s i o n t h a t th e C o u r t h a s

Page 137 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
a lr e a d y t a k e n th a t I m u s t g o f o r d i s c ip li n a r y h e a r i n g , b e c a u s e i f y o u a r e
a ju d g e , e s p e c i a l ly fr o m t h e S u p r e m e C o u r t o f A p p e a l , y o u m a k e s u c h a
c o m m e n t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th a t h e a r i n g c a n u n f a ir ly d is m i s s m e , n o t
b e c a u s e o f t h e f a c t s t h a t I a m p r e s e n ti n g i n fr o n t o f h i m , b e c a u s e h e
h a s b e e n i n fl u e n c e d b y th e c o m m a n d o f t h e J u d g e a n d w i th d u e r e s p e c t
C h a ir p e r s o n I r e s p e c t t h e C o u r ts , b u t I b e l ie v e t h e j u d g e s a r e h u m a n
b e i n g s , t h e y a ls o m a k e e r r o r s li k e a l l o f u s i n t h e ir w o r k , b u t I a m
s a y in g C h a ir p e r s o n i t is u n fa ir, t h e p r o o f t o d a y is w h a t I h a v e p r e s e n te d
in th is fo r u m C h a ir p e r s o n a n d I r e s p e c t t h e j u d g e s C h a ir p e r s o n , e v e n I
10

h a v e b e e n d is m i s s e d C h a ir p e r s o n , d u r i n g m y d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g
b e c a u s e o n e o f th e c h a r g e s w a s I s a id t h e j u d g e th a t w a s d e a l i n g w i t h
t h e S A B C 8 i n m y v ie w h e w a s c o n fli c te d , w h ic h i s t r u e I s a i d th a t , b u t
t h a t i n f o r m a ti o n I w a s g iv e n b y t h e l a w y e r o f t h e S A B C t o s a y t h e J u d g e
w a s c o n f lic t e d a n d a t th a t ti m e C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s v o l u n ta r il y t a k i n g
le a v e b e c a u s e o f th e C o u r t d e c i s i o n s , I w a s c a ll e d b y th e S A B C a n d t h e
le g a l te a m t o c o m e a n d g i v e a ffi d a v it , b e c a u s e n o w I w a s – I d o n ’ t k n o w
le g a l ly th e y w e r e j o i n i n g fo r t h e c o s t w h e n I w a s n o t p a r t o f t h a t. I h e a r
t h a t m e s s a g e a n d t h e n i n t h e p r e s s c o n f e r e n c e I s a i d t h is is w h a t I
h e a r d fr o m th e S A B C t h a t th e J u d g e w a s c o n f li c t e d b u t I d id n o t

20

m e n ti o n th e J u d g e b y n a m e , I d i d n o t e v e n k n o w t h is J u d g e b y n a m e , I
ju s t s a i d if i t is tr u e t h a t t h e J u d g e w a s c o n fli c te d b e c a u s e t h e w if e w a s
w o r k i n g f o r a fir m a n d t h a t – t h e J u d g e w a s s u p p o s e d to d e c l a r e t h a t
m y w i fe is w o r k i n g f o r t h is f ir m .
I t i s t h e s a m e is s u e w h e r e d u r i n g t h e in t e r v ie w s o f C h i e f
J u s t ic e M o e g e n g M o e g e n g p e o p le w h o w e r e d o in g i n te r v i e w s , s o m e o f

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h e m t h e y a t t a c k h i m w h y h e d id n o t d e c la r e a b o u t h is w i f e w h e n t h e
w i f e w a s a p p e a r in g i n fr o n t o f h i m , s o i t i s p a in f u l C h a ir p e r s o n , I h a v e
b e e n k i ll e d , a n d I w a n t t o u s e t h i s w o r d C h a ir p e r s o n , b y s o m e o f t h e
ju d g e s b e c a u s e o f t h e ir c o m m e n ts a n d o t h e r p e o p l e p o r tr a y m e a s a
( in d is ti n c t) C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

Th e n i n p a r a g r a p h s 5 2 t o 5 6

I th i n k y o u ’v e s u m m a r i s e d t h a t b y s a y i n g th a t s o m e o f t h e s e t h in g s
a g a in s t y o u a r e n o t tr u e , a n d t h e n y o u m e n ti o n e d i n p a r a g r a p h 5 7 a n d I
10

m u s t m e n t io n t o y o u M r M o t s o e n e n g I p u t t h is p a r a g r a p h , I r e a d it o u t
t o D r N g u b a n i a n d w h a t y o u s a id in p a r a g r a p h 5 7 :
“ A l l S A B C B o a r d c h a ir p e r s o n s , D r N g u b a n i , P r o f M a g u v h e , a n d
M s E ll e n Ts h a b a l a l a w e r e g iv e n a m a n d a te t o g e t r i d o f m e a s I
w a s a s t u m b li n g b l o c k fo r th e B o a r d m e m b e r s w h o w a n te d t o
eat.”
B u t w h a t I d id n o t p u t a n d I s e e n o w w h e n I r e a d t h is la s t n i g h t th a t
paragraph 58:
“ T h e y r e f u s e d t o ta k e p o li t ic a l i n s tr u c t io n s fo r m y r e m o v a l a n d
t h e y w e r e a ta r g e t a s w e l l C h a ir p e r s o n s , t h e m i n u t e s o f t h e
S A B C w i ll c o n f ir m w h a t I a m s a y in g . ”

20

N o w w h o g a v e t h is m a n d a t e a n d c o u l d y o u e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
w h a t w a s t h i s m a n d a te a l l a b o u t ?
MR

HLAUDI

C h a ir p e r s o n

GEORGE
Ngubani,

the

MOTSOENENG:
fo r m e r

( i n d i s t in c t )

C h a ir p e r s o n
I

mean

is

maybe
normal,

s o m e t i m e s y o u f o r g e t t h e s e is s u e s , m a y b e h e i s p r o t e c ti n g th e A fr ic a n

Page 139 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
N a t io n a l C o n g r e s s b e c a u s e h e is a m e m b e r o f t h e A N C , n o w I h a v e
m o v e d a w a y, s o s o m e t i m e s i t is u n d e r s t a n d a b l e , b u t a f t e r w h a t th e
C h a ir s a i d i n t h i s C o m m is s i o n I d i d c a ll h i m C h a ir p e r s o n to r e m i n d h i m
about the pressure that I was supposed to be removed.
A c tu a l ly h e i s t h e o n e w h o h a s b e e n d e f e n d i n g m e p u b li c ly s o I
m e a n i t w il l a t te s t t o t h e is s u e th a t I w a s c o r r e c t b u t I t h i n k it is j u s t
t h a t h e f o r g e t a b o u t t h a t is s u e , b u t a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n i n th e m i n u t e s o f
t h e B o a r d m e e t i n g s i f w e r e c e i v e t h o s e B o a r d m e e t in g s , t h e f o r m e r
C h a ir p e r s o n , El l e n Ts h a b a l a la c a m e i n t o a b o a r d m e e ti n g , h e w a s
10

c a l l e d b y p o li t ic i a n s , th e m a n d a t e , t h e f ir s t m a n d a t e w a s t o g e t r i d o f
H l a u d i , h e s p o k e a b o u t t h a t is s u e in a b o a r d m e e t in g , s o a ll o f th e m
in c l u d i n g P r o fe s s o r M a g u v h e C h a ir p e r s o n th e y d id n ’t b u d g e t o t h a t
p o li t ic a l p r e s s u r e o r a n y i n fl u e n c e fr o m o u t s id e .
CHAIRPERSON: Now I have seen some minutes of some SABC board
m e e ti n g s h e r e , b u t t h e o n e s th a t y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t a r e t h e y h e r e , I
s e e Ms N o r m a n s h a k e s h e r h e a d t h a t t h e y a r e n o t h e r e .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o I h a v e n o t s e e n t h e m C h a ir, b e c a u s e I

d e a l w it h i t .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W o u l d y o u b e a b l e t o g iv e th e l e g a l t e a m o f t h e

C o m m i s s i o n s u c h in f o r m a t io n a s w o u l d e n a b le t h e m t o g o t o th e – t o
S A B C a n d s a y w e w a n t m i n u te s o f th e B o a r d m e e ti n g s o f t h e f o ll o w i n g
d a t e s , b e c a u s e y o u t h in k t h o s e w o u l d b e t h e d a te s w h e r e t h o s e w o u l d
b e r e fl e c t e d ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG:
C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 140 of 177

I think there are two ways

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

B e c a u s e o n r e c o r d , o n th e

m i n u t e s o f t h e S A B C t h e p e r s o n w h o s p o k e a b o u t t h e is s u e i n th e b o a r d
m e e ti n g i t w a s t h e f o r m e r C h a ir p e r s o n , E ll e n Ts h a b a la l a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOENENG:

I t is r e c o r d e d , t h e s e c o n d p o in t

w i ll b e t h e m i n u te s a r e t h e r e o r f o r m e r C h a ir p e r s o n E l le n Ts h a b a la l a
s h e c a n b e c a ll e d t o c o m e a n d d e a l w it h s u c h is s u e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , n o i t ’s o n e t h i n g to c a ll h e r b u t I a m m o r e

in t e r e s te d f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s w h e t h e r t h e r e m i g h t b e m in u t e s th a t
r e fl e c t t h a t d is c u s s i o n o r i f it i s n o t mi n u te s , I d o n ’t k n o w i f i t w a s
m e e ti n g s w o u ld h a v e b e e n m e c h a n i c a ll y r e c o r d e d , a s f a r a s y o u k n o w
w o u ld t h a t b e m i n u te s t h a t m i g h t r e f le c t t h a t?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

O r is i t p o s s i b le t h a t t h a t p a r t m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n

minuted?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

N o , if m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e

w e ll C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e a r e m in u te s o n r e c o r d d e a li n g w i th t h a t is s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

An d – b u t y o u k n o w m i n u t e s

C h a ir p e r s o n i t d o e s n o t g iv e y o u e v e r y t h i n g , b e c a u s e m in u t e s y o u ju s t
summarise the discussion.
CHAIRPERSON: Of course, yes, yes.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

I th i n k I c a n s a y m i n u t e s , i f

t h e y a r e n o t t h e r e i n th e m i n u te s th e – w e s h a l l g e t tr a n s c r i p ts , y e s i t

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
w i ll b e t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , o h t h e m e e t in g s o f t h e B o a r d w o u l d , t h e r e
w o u ld b e tr a n s c r i p ts a v a il a b l e ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o m a y b e if y o u c a n t h e n la t e r o n e i t h e r d i r e c t ly
t o th e C o m m i s s i o n o r t h r o u g h y o u r l e g a l r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s j u s t i n d ic a te t o
t h e le g a l t e a m o f th e C o m m is s i o n t h a t i t w o u ld b e m i n u t e s o f m e e ti n g s
t h a t w e r e h e l d b e t w e e n w h a te v e r d a te a n d w h a te v e r d a te , i f y o u d o n ’ t
r e m e m b e r t h e e x a c t d a t e s o f t h o s e m e e ti n g s , s o t h a t w h e n t h e S A B C i s
10

a p p r o a c h e d th e y w i ll b e a b le to s a y l o o k f o r m i n u te s t h a t fa ll b e t w e e n
t h is d a t e a n d th a t d a t e .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MO TSO ENENG:

M a y b e ju s t t o e l a b o r a te

C h a ir p e r s o n th e r e a s o n w h y Mr ( in d is ti n c t) s a i d I w a r n t h e A N C is
t e s ti m o n y t o w h a t I a m s a y i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG:

Ye s b e c a u s e th a t is w h e r e

e v e n E ll e n Ts h a b a l a la s a i d n o b u t w h e n w e a r e h e r e w e a r e a ll
m e m b e r s o f t h e A N C b u t m e I a m h e r e to d o w h a t I a m s u p p o s e d t o d o
w h ic h is th e r i g h t t h i n g a n d I m u s t p r o t e c t , n o t H la u d i , a ll th e
20

employees of the SABC.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , m m m , o k a y, a lr i g h t, s o i f th a t c a n b e f o l l o w e d
up.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir.

Just for record

p u r p o s e s in p a r a g r a p h 7 a n d 6 2 o f M r M o ts o e n e n g ’s a ff i d a v i t h e
m e n ti o n s

c e r t a in

i n f o r m a ti o n

that

he

Page 142 of 177

has

requested

fr o m

the

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
in v e s t i g a t o r s o f th e C o m m is s i o n , b u t i t i s n o t s t a t e d w h a t i n f o r m a t io n
h e d i d n o t g e t , o r d i d n o t r e c e iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I t h i n k w e a ls o w e r e g iv e n t h o u s a n d s o f

d o c u m e n t a ti o n b y t h e S A B C .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

I t is d i ffi c u l t w i th o u t n a r r o w i n g i t d o w n

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e i n d ic a ti o n j a .
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o m e i n d i c a ti o n a s t o e x a c t ly w h a t – t h a t

h e is l o o k in g fo r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I t h in k e v e n p r o v i d e w h e r e h e c a n s o m e

n a r r o w in g o f i n f o r m a ti o n s o t h a t i t w o u l d b e e a s i e r to l o o k fo r it .

Mr

M o ts o e n e n g ?
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

C h a ir p e r s o n I w a n t t o s a y

t h a t I h a v e w o r k e d w e l l w i t h t h e t e a m , y o u r t e a m , t h e i n v e s ti g a t o r s , I
d o n ’t w a n t t o li e , I m a y r a is e t h o s e i s s u e s th a t I d id n o t g e t o n e , t w o ,
t h r e e , b u t th e y h a v e b e e n tr y i n g t h e ir b e s t t o a s s is t m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

B u t o n e p o r ti o n th a t I a m

a w a r e o f w h ic h a ls o th e y a r e a w a r e o f , I a s k e d C h a ir p e r s o n th e r e d i ff u s io n m e e t in g I th i n k I w a s a ls o r e f e r r in g t o t h o s e is s u e s w h e r e I
w a s p a r t a n d S A B C w e r e d e a li n g w i th t h o s e is s u e s a n d t h e n t h e y s a i d
no they do not have such.

T h e y g i v e t h e m t h e ir m i n u t e s , w h e n t h e y

k n e w t h a t t h e y h a v e g o t t h o s e ( i n d is t in c t ) b e c a u s e S A B C w h a t th e y g i v e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
y o u C h a i r p e r s o n th e y a r e h i d in g i n f o r m a ti o n , t h e y g i v e w h a t s u i ts t h e m ,
t h e y d o n o t g iv e y o u t h e tr u t h .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir . .. ( i n te r v e n ti o n )

N o t h a t is fi n e , ju s t m a k e s u r e t h a t w h a t e v e r it is ,

w h a t e v e r i n f o r m a ti o n y o u th in k i s r e a ll y r e l e v a n t t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n th a t
y o u k n o w o f t h a t s h o u l d b e o b ta i n a b le f r o m t h e S A B C j u s t m a k e s u r e
t h e l e g a l t e a m g e ts th e – g e t s e x a c tl y w h a t t h e y m u s t a s k f o r a n d t h e n
t h e y w il l a s k f o r it a n d I a m s u r e t h a t w e s h o u ld g e t i t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
10

Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir. A n d i n p a r a g r a p h s

5 9 , 6 0 a n d 6 1 y o u ’r e q u o ti n g f r o m m i n u t e s o f a s p e c i a l m e e t in g o f th e
1 s t o f J u ly 2 0 11 , b u t w h a t I c o u l d n o t fi n d M r M o ts o e n e n g is th e
tr a n s c r ip t io n c e r ti fi c a t e a n d w h o tr a n s c r i b e d t h e s e m in u t e s o f t h e B o a r d
a n d w h e t h e r s o m e b o d y h a d r e c o r d e d u s in g a p a r t ic u l a r d e v i c e a n d th e n
tr a n s c r ib e d b e c a u s e it , b e c a u s e e v e n t h e f o r m a t i s d i ff e r e n t.

C h a ir

t h a t w o u ld a p p e a r f r o m p a g e s 1 3 1 t o 1 6 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Page?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Page 131.

CHAIRPERSON: 131.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:
20

number 6.

To 1 6 3 , t h a t w o u ld b e u n d e r d i v i d e r

M a y b e – d o y o u w a n t t o p a g e t h r o u g h M r M o ts o e n e n g , o r

a r e y o u h a p p y, y o u k n o w w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I k n o w.

CHAIRPERSON: 131 to?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

To 1 3 6 C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: 136.

Page 144 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , to 1 6 3 .

CHAIRPERSON: 163.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w h a t is th a t ?
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

T h is a p p e a r s to b e a

tr a n s c r ip t , i t p u r p o r ts to b e a tr a n s c r ip t o f a s p e c i a l m e e ti n g o f th e
B o a r d o f 1 J u l y 2 0 11 , i t is c o m p l e te ly d i ff e r e n t fr o m a ll t h e mi n u te s th a t
w e h a d r e c e i v e d a n d I w a n te d t o fi n d o u t fr o m M r M o t s o e n e n g a s t o
w h e t h e r h e is th e o n e w h o t r a n s c r i b e d t h i s a n d w h e th e r h e o b t a i n e d it
10

fr o m t h e S A B C ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

C h a i r p e r s o n I h a v e th is

tr a n s c r ip t s l o n g a g o , w h e n I w a s s t il l a t t h e S A B C , i t – I r e c e iv e d th e
tr a n s c r ip t s fr o m t h e s e c r e ta r y o f th e S A B C B o a r d , T h e r e s a G e l d e n h u y s ,
t h a t i s t h e t r a n s c r i p t .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h e r e y o u g o t it f r o m ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s .

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a t is n o w t h e S p e c i a l M e e ti n g o f t h e B o a r d o f
1 J u ly 2 0 11 , I t h i n k t h a t is w h a t t h e y a l lu d e to in p a g e 1 3 1 .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , y e s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

S o d i d s h e g iv e y o u a r e c o r d i n g o n ly ju s t

o r j u s t th is tr a n s c r ip t ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

I think she gave me a

r e c o r d i n g C h a ir b u t I c o u l d n o t p l a y i t , I c o u l d n o t , s h e g a v e m e a

Page 145 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
r e c o r d i n g a n d tr a n s c r i p ts .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh she gave you both.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ye s , b u t f o r m e I c o u l d n o t

. . .( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e c o r d i n g y o u c o u l d n o t lis t e n to it , y o u c o u l d n o t
play it.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

Ye s , I c o u l d n o t li s te n to it ,

b u t I th in k S A B C t h e y h a v e t h e r e c o r d i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Ye s , w h a t i s t h e g i s t o f th is tr a n s c r i p t

t h a t y o u , w h a t is th e is s u e t h a t y o u w a n t t o c o n v e y t o t h e C h a i r p e r s o n
b y p u t ti n g u p th e tr a n s c r ip t ?
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

I w a n t to s a y t o y o u

C h a ir p e r s o n . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
CHAIRPERSON:

I th i n k t h a t w a s a b o u t th e r e s o l u ti o n f o r y o u r

appointment if I am not mistaken.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

N o C h a ir, t h is is a b o u t , it g o e s w i th th e –

in th o s e p a r a g r a p h s i t d e a l s w i t h t h e f a c t th a t t h e r e w e r e m o v e s t o
r e m o v e h i m o r t o a n s w e r to h i m a t l e a s t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, a lr ig h t . Ye s , l e t h i m te ll u s .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

C h a i r p e r s o n I th i n k s o m e

p e o p l e w h e n t h e y w e r e a p p o i n t i n g m e t h e y w e r e t h i n k i n g t h a t th is
m a tr ic l e s s w il l j u s t d o w h a t w e w a n t , th a t i s . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is n o w y o u ta lk a b o u t s o m e o f t h e p e o p le in t h e
Board, on the Board?

Page 146 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e w e

w e r e h a v i n g d i s c u s s i o n a n d s o m e ti m e s t h e y w il l t e a s e h e y H l a u d i y o u
k n o w y o u d o n ’ t e v e n h a v e m a t r ic , y o u k n o w i t s e e m s a s i f i t i s a f a v o u r
fr o m w h e r e I w a s a n a l y s in g it a n d in t e r p r e ti n g i t , a n d C h a i r p e r s o n I a m
v e r y f ir m , a n d I – y o u c a n ’ t in f lu e n c e m e i f I d o n o t a g r e e w i t h y o u
e a s i ly.

W h a t p e o p l e w o u l d s o m e t i m e s t h e y i n fl u e n c e m e I a g r e e w i t h

t h e m b e c a u s e t h e y a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n , b u t I th i n k i f p e o p le w e r e
t h i n k i n g t h a t it i s a fa v o u r a n d f o r m e I b e l ie v e I d e s e r v e i t a n d I w a s
c a p a b le C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e i n a l l t h e s e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n , a n d t h a t
10

is w h e r e th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a ls o m is s a p o i n t . W h e n I w e n t t o h e r I
s a i d n o a ft e r j o i n i n g th e S A B C a s th e A c ti n g C O O I r e a l is e d t h a t th e
e x e c u tiv e s o m e t i m e s t h e y c o u ld n o t c h a l l e n g e t h e B o a r d , o r g iv e th e
B o a r d c o r r e c t i n fo r m a t i o n b e c a u s e s o m e ti m e s p e o p l e a r e a f r a i d o f
d is m i s s a l C h a ir p e r s o n t o c h a l le n g e a n d t h e n y o u a r e a fr a i d , I s a i d to
h e r th a t i s w h a t I r e a l is e d t h a t s o m e o f th e B o a r d r e s o l u ti o n t h e y w e r e
i m p o s s i b le .
E x a m p l e C h a i r p e r s o n w h e n t h e y w e r e p r e s e n t in g in P a r li a m e n t
m o s t o f th e ti m e t h e y w e r e s a y i n g n o d i g i t a l m i g r a ti o n w il l h a v e 1 8
c h a n n e l s b u t w h e r e th is i n f o r m a t i o n w il l c o m e fr o m , w h ic h m e a n s it is

20

management.

M a y b e th e y w is h , t h e y w a n t 1 8 c h a n n e ls b u t r e a l it y i f

y o u c a n n o t s u s ta in t h r e e c h a n n e ls h o w c a n y o u s a y y o u a r e g o i n g t o
h a v e 1 8 c h a n n e l s a n d th e n I s a i d t o t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r I th in k I
a c c e p t th a t w h e n p e o p le w e r e p r e s e n t i n g i n B o a r d th e y a ls o m i s l e d t h e
B o a r d , n o t m e , b e c a u s e I a m t h e o n e w h o i f I d is a g r e e I d i s a g r e e , t h e
B o a r d k n o w s t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .

T h a t i s w h y s o m e t i m e s I w a s f i g h t in g

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
w i t h t h e B o a r d , t h e y c h a s e m e a w a y, I c o m e b a c k .
S o th a t is t h e r e a s o n C h a ir p e r s o n . O n e d a y C h a i r p e r s o n I w a s
c a l l e d in a m e e ti n g b y a B o a r d m e m b e r b u t i n a n y c a s e t h e B o a r d
m e m b e r h e w a s t h i n k in g th a t th e G C E O is t h e r e , w h i c h is c o r r e c t , I
m e a n a c c o r d i n g t o th e p r o to c o l o f t h e S A B C a B o a r d m e m b e r w i ll c a ll
t h e G C E O . U n f o r t u n a t e l y w h e n t h e G C E O is n o t t h e r e i t w a s m e . I w a s
c a l li n g a m e e ti n g .

I n t h a t m e e t in g i s w h e r e a b o a r d m e m b e r c a ll

b u s i n e s s p e o p l e o u t s i d e S A B C t o c o m e a n d d is c u s s th e b u s i n e s s o f th e
S A B C , i t is t h e s e is s u e s o f te n d e r s a n d s o o n , t o c o m e a n d d is c u s s
10

t h e s e i s s u e s , s o t h e y c a ll e d m e , a n d w h e n I c a m e p e o p l e d id n ’t k n o w
t h a t i t is m e , s o I w e n t a n d t h e n t h e y i n tr o d u c e d p e o p l e , a n d I a m n o t
g o i n g t o m e n ti o n t h e ir n a m e s C h a ir p e r s o n , I d o n ’ t w a n t t o d o t h a t,
because I am not here to – because I did not accept, I did not agree
w i t h t h e m a n d w e a g r e e in c l u d i n g t h e B o a r d m e m b e r.
S o I w a s c a l l e d i n th a t m e e ti n g , w e w e r e d is c u s s i n g t h i s i s s u e .
T h e f ir s t p o i n t t h a t I r a is e d i n fr o n t o f a B o a r d m e m b e r, I s a id y o u a s
b u s i n e s s p e o p l e , a n d th e s e a r e b i g c o m p a n i e s C h a ir p e r s o n , I s a i d e v e n
if w e ta lk h e r e b u t y o u s h a ll n o t t a k e i t a s a g iv e n , b e c a u s e a B o a r d
m e m b e r i s – h e is i n t h is m e e ti n g , w e a s m a n a g e m e n t w e ta k e

20

d e c is i o n s , s o t h e y o v e r s e e , s o d o n ’ t th in k t h a t y o u a r e g o in g to g e t
w h a t e v e r.
I p u t i t c l e a r C h a ir p e r s o n e v e n i n B o a r d s I r e p o r te d t h e m a t t e r
t o s a y I w a s c o n c e r n e d th a t a B o a r d m e m b e r c a l le d a m e e t in g , b u t I c a n
s a y C h a ir p e r s o n I d i d n o t h a v e d i ffi c u l ti e s w i t h t h e B o a r d m e m b e r, w e
u n d e r s t a n d e a c h o t h e r, b u t I a m j u s t d e m o n s tr a ti n g t h a t I s ta n d f o r

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
w h a t I b e l i e v e i n , w h a t is c o r r e c t , n o o n e c a n b u ll d o z e m e , b e c a u s e
w r o n g is w r o n g C h a ir p e r s o n , y o u c a n n o t g iv e m e w r o n g in s t r u c ti o n ,
b e c a u s e i f it is a w r o n g in s t r u c t i o n I w i ll s a y n o I c a n n o t d o i t , s o th is
is s u e o f th e tr a n s c r i p t C h a ir p e r s o n i t s e e m s , b e c a u s e i t is q u o te d t h e r e
y o u k n o w w h a t d o y o u li k e H la u d i , t h e n t h e r e w e r e d is c u s s i o n s , a n d
t h e n t h e p e r s o n s a i d j a I l ik e H l a u d i a lo t b u t I t h i n k h e s h o u l d n o t s i t i n
o u r m e e ti n g b e c a u s e h e a n d R o b in N ic h o l s o n h e y v e r y c l o s e , t h e y a r e
ti g h t t h e s e p e o p le w e c a n n o t s e r v e o u r i n t e r e s t .
What is serving our interest?
10

Yo u c a n n o t s e r v e y o u r o w n

in t e r e s t , y o u m u s t s e r v e t h e in t e r e s t o f t h e C o r p o r a ti o n .
It

goes

f u r th e r

C h a ir p e r s o n ,

to

say

that

we

must

pay

( in d is ti n c t) t h e s e p e o p l e a r e s tu m b l in g b l o c k , H l a u d i i s a s t u m b li n g
block.

A t l e a s t th e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e y s u c c e e d to r e m o v e N ic h o ls o n ,

t h e y d i d n o t s u c c e e d t o r e m o v e m e , u n ti l t h e y l e f t t h e S A B C , b u t w h a t I
a m d e m o n s t r a t in g C h a i r p e r s o n i f y o u r e a d th a t t r a n s c r i p t , a n d I d o n o t
w a n t t o m e n ti o n t h e ir n a m e s , i f y o u r e a d t h a t tr a n s c r i p t i t t a lk s to t h e
is s u e o f p e o p l e g o i n g t o t h e S A B C a s b o a r d m e m b e r s b e c a u s e t h e y a r e
t h e b lo c k a d e b y a p o li t ic a l p a r ty o r p o li ti c a l p a r t ie s a n d t h e y w a n t to
p a y t h e ir o w n c o m r a d e s a n d a ls o s e r v e t h e ir o w n i n t e r e s ts . I t is w r o n g
20

C h a ir p e r s o n th a t i s w h a t I h a v e b e e n fi g h t i n g w i t h i n th e S A B C
C h a ir p e r s o n .

T h e s e p e o p le t h a t a r e ta r n is h i n g m y n a m e I h a v e b e e n

fi g h ti n g f o r a g o o d c a u s e , f o r a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w y o u s a id s o m e t h in g a b o u t – e x c u s e m e a b o u t y o u
a n d Mr N i c h o l s o n w h e n y o u s a i d w h a t e v e r y o u s a id , I t h o u g h t y o u
m e a n t t h a t t h e t w o o f y o u m a y b e w o u ld f ig h t a t b o a r d m e e ti n g s a n d t h a t

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
is w h y w h o e v e r w a s s p e a k i n g w a s s u g g e s t in g th a t m a y b e y o u s h o u l d
not come to the board meetings maybe because they cannot make
p r o g r e s s b e c a u s e t h e t w o o f y o u w o u l d b e a r g u in g o r f i g h t in g o v e r
c e r t a i n is s u e s , b u t m a y b e y o u m e a n t t h a t t h e tw o o f y o u s t o o d t o g e t h e r
a g a in s t c e r t a i n th i n g s , y o u r s e lf a n d M r N ic h o ls o n , w h ic h is i t, o r i s i t
s o m e t h i n g c o m p l e te ly d i ff e r e n t ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

I t h i n k C h a ir p e r s o n a ft e r

p e o p l e r e a l is e d t h a t th e y c a n n o t b u ll d o z e m e t h e y r e a li s e d t h a t h e y w e
h a v e h a v e a p p o in t e d t h e w r o n g p e r s o n h e r e , a c tu a lly w e w e r e n o t
10

s u p p o s e d t o a p p o in t th is o n e , a n d Mr R o b i n N ic h o ls o n C h a ir p e r s o n I
w a n t to u s e h i s w o r d b e c a u s e h e w a s s o m e ti m e s t e a s i n g to s a y h e i s a
b u ll y b u t n o t i n a b a d w a y, I m e a n y o u s t a n d y o u r g r o u n d , s o N ic h o ls o n
w i ll s ta n d h i s o w n g r o u n d s a b o u t is s u e s t h a t h e d o e s n o t b e l ie v e i n
C h a ir p e r s o n .

I t h in k th e y w e r e ju s t tr y in g t o r e m o v e p e o p le li k e u s s o

t h a t t h e y c a n s e r v e th e i r o w n i n t e r e s t a n d p a y th e i r o w n c o m r a d e s a n d I
b e li e v e th a t p e o p l e h a v e b e e n d o i n g t h a t , m a k i n g s u r e th a t I a m o u t a t
t h e S A B C a n d a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n i f y o u c h e c k t h e s t a te m e n t o f K r i s h
N a i d o o i t a t t e s ts t o t h a t h is t o r y o f t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n , b u t a ls o
C h a ir p e r s o n I m u s t s a y t h a t o th e r b o a r d m e m b e r s t h e y h a d b e e n
20

s u p p o r t in g m e .
T h e y h a v e b e e n a g r e e i n g w it h u s t h a t n o t h e b o a r d s h o u ld n o t
g e t in t o t h e o p e r a ti o n o f t h e S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

A n d a ls o C h a ir th e ta r n is h i n g

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
o f m y n a m e w h e n i t c o m e s to m e d i a is a l s o t h e r e , th e y a r e s a y i n g n o
w e c a n c o n tr o l m e d ia , y e s C h a ir p e r s o n , i t is t h e r e i n th a t tr a n s c r i p t ,
t h e y c a n c o n t r o l .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is a ls o i n th e m i n u t e s m m m .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

I a m n o t p u t t in g a s a fa c t

h e r e , m a y b e th is ta r n is h t h e y h a v e b e e n c o n tr o ll in g m e d i a .
CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
A D V TH A N D I N O R M A N S C :

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

A n d t h e n fr o m

p a r a g r a p h 6 6 t o 7 2 y o u d e a l w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m ily. Yo u a lr e a d y d e a l t
10

w i t h t h i s y e s t e r d a y w h e n y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t y o u h a d v is i t e d t h e
f a m ily ’s , th e G u p t a f a m il y ’s h o m e s e v e r a l t i m e s a n d y o u h a d d i n n e r s
a n d l u n c h e s t h e r e , th a t is w h a t y o u s a i d , b u t w h a t y o u s a y i n p a r a g r a p h
7 2 is th is :
“ I h a v e m e t o t h e r i n fl u e n t ia l b u s i n e s s p e o p l e b u t s tr a n g e ly I
h a v e n e v e r b e e n q u e r i e d a b o u t th e m . ”
Is t h is – a r e y o u d ir e c t in g th is t o t h e C o m m is s i o n t h a t i t h a s a s k e d y o u
t o d e a l w i th t h i s a s p e c t o r a r e y o u ju s t s a y in g t h a t g e n e r a ll y n o b o d y
a s k e d y o u a b o u t o t h e r i n fl u e n ti a l p e o p le ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I t h i n k i t w i ll b e u n f a i r f o r m e to

20

d ir e c t t h is t o c o m m is s i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

C o m m is s i o n h a s n o t h i n g t o d o

w i t h t h is C h a i r p e r s o n . W h a t I w a s j u s t a ll u d i n g i t is n o t t h e c o m m i s s i o n
w h o is s a y i n g H la u d i b u t th e s e p e o p le w h o d id t h is .
has never said that.

The commission

I w a s j u s t s a y i n g p e o p le g e n e r a lly t h e y w il l s a y

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h e s e p e o p l e m e t t h e G u p t a ’s b la , b l a b u t w e m e e t – w e a r e a l w a y s
h a v i n g m a n y m e e ti n g s w i t h o th e r b u s in e s s p e o p le C h a ir p e r s o n th is i t
h a s n o th i n g t o d o w i t h t h e c o m m is s i o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 7 0 y o u
s t a te d t h a t y o u n e v e r r e c e i v e d a n y g i f ts o r m o n e y o r f o r m s o f
g r a t i fi c a t io n fr o m t h e G u p t a fa m i ly.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Correct.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . M a y b e j u s t o n e q u e s ti o n I h a v e . Yo u
s t a te d y e s t e r d a y h o w y o u t h e n t o o k Ms M o k h o b o to t h e G u p ta f a m il y t o
10

m e e t th e m a n d f o r h e r to b e c o n g r a t u l a te d . D id y o u d o t h e s a m e w i t h
o th e r p e o p l e th a t y o u w e r e d o i n g b u s in e s s w i t h t h e S A B C ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG:

N o C h a ir.

I took her because

a s I s a id y e s te r d a y i t w a s p a r t o f h a n d o v e r, i n tr o d u c e h e r to o t h e r
b u s i n e s s p e o p l e n o t th e G u p t a ’s o n ly. I t h in k I m e t – I in t r o d u c e h e r t o
o th e r p e o p l e . S h e d i d th e s a m e th i n g t o m e C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

T h e i s s u e a b o u t t h e G u p t a ’s

C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e I m u s t t e l l y o u t h e t r u th . I s a i d I w a s l o o k i n g to
c a p tu r e t h e m . A n d t h i s c a p tu r i n g C h a i r p e r s o n i t w i ll a ls o a d d r e s s t h e
20

n e g a tiv i ty o f m e d ia g e n e r a ll y t o s a y b u t a s m e d ia w e n e e d to fi n d a w a y
o f p o r tr a y i n g a l s o g o o d s to r i e s a b o u t S o u t h A f r ic a b e c a u s e n o t
e v e r y t h i n g is b a d a b o u t S o u t h A fr ic a .

A n d a ls o C h a i r p e r s o n w e a r e

having that partnership you know that with New Age.

I saw an

o p p o r t u n i ty t o s a y t h e s e p e o p le t h e y h a v e t h is n ic e j e t s , h e li c o p t e r s
w h y w e a s S A B C w e m u s t p a y. S o t h o s e w e r e t h e is s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
t h a t I w a s tr y in g to m a k e s u r e t h a t a t l e a s t S A B C a l s o b e n e fi t fr o m th is
partnership.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r e f e r t o t h e je t d i d y o u w a n t S A B C p e o p l e t o

b e n e fi t fr o m th e j e t ? Yo u u s e it a s w e ll o r w h a t ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o r r y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s a y in g y o u r e f e r r e d t o t h e fa c t t h a t t h e y h a d a

je t o r p r iv a t e j e t a n d I a m a s k i n g w h e th e r w h y t h a t o n e is i m p o r t a n t
w h e t h e r y o u h a d in m i n d t h a t s i n c e y o u h a d a p a r tn e r s h i p w i t h th e m
10

a b o u t t h e N e w A g e y o u S A B C s h o u l d b e a b l e to u s e th e j e t a s w e l l o r
what?
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG:
w e p a y.

C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e n o r m a l ly

I m e a n y o u k n o w it is e x p e n s i v e t o fly t o C a p e To w n a n d

everywhere and everywhere.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : B u t I w a s t h i n k in g th a t b e c a u s e
w e h a v e th is p a r tn e r s h ip w e c a n s a y b u t w e a r e p a r t n e r i n g i n th is
p r o j e c t I m e a n i f w e h a v e tr i p s w h y c a n y o u n o t – w e u s e y o u r – y o u r –
w h a t y o u c a ll it ? – y o u r je t b e c a u s e f o r u s m a y b e th e y c a n s a y n o b u t
20

y o u w il l p u t f u e l i t is fi n e w e d o n o t h a v e a p r o b le m . S o it m i n i m i z e t h e
c o s t o f th e S A B C .

Th e s a m e is s u e C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t I d id w i t h

M u l tic h o ic e p a r t n e r s h i p b e c a u s e in m y v i e w I w a s s a y i n g w e l l a l t h o u g h
M u s t - C a r r y s a y s t h a t y o u m u s t c a r r y S A B C b u t p a r tl y I th in k y o u a r e
a ls o b e n e fi t ti n g w h y c a n y o u n o t i n v e s t a n d a s s i s t t h e S A B C w h i c h t h e y
did Chairperson.

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A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u . N o w th a t y o u o n M u l ti c h o ic e
w e m o v e fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 2 2 t o 2 5 y o u d e a l w i t h M u l ti c h o ic e m a t t e r s
a n d E T V a n d c o u l d y o u j u s t l in k t h a t t o t h e b r o a d e r M u l t ic h o ic e is s u e
t h a t y o u d e a l w i th fr o m p a r a g r a p h 7 3 o n w a r d s .

C o u ld y o u te ll th e

C h a ir p e r s o n w h y a n d o n w h a t b a s is w a s M u l ti c h o ic e a p p r o a c h e d a n d u p
t o t h e c o n c l u s i o n o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w i th M u lt ic h o ic e b r i e fly ?
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

C h a ir m a y b e t h r o u g h y o u r

p e r m is s io n C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : I a ls o r e c e i v e d n o ti c e fr o m t h e
c o m m i s s io n M r K r u g e r p u t – i m p l ic a ti n g m e i n s o m e o f t h e s e a s p e c ts .
S o – b u t C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w il l d e c i d e .

In my view because I am

i m p l ic a t e d o n th a t m a t te r I a m – I th i n k t h e i m p l ic a to r, th e o n e w h o is
i m p l ic a t i n g m e h e m u s t g iv e e v i d e n c e f ir s t s o t h a t I c a n r e s p o n d o n h is
e v i d e n c e . B e c a u s e h e is i m p lic a ti n g m e , h e i s th e o n e w h o i s ta lk in g
a b o u t o t h e r is s u e s t h e r e i n t h i s M u lt ic h o ic e i s s u e C h a i r p e r s o n . I t h i n k
it w i ll b e f a ir f o r m e t o c o m e to r e s p o n d b e c a u s e a lr e a d y h e i s
i m p l ic a t i n g m e . R a t h e r t h a n m e t o g o a n d th e n h e i m p l ic a te s m e h e is
going to come after me.
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w h a t y o u c a n d o i s y o u c a n te ll t h e c o m m i s s i o n
w h a t y o u k n o w a b o u t t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a n d – a n d i f a ft e r h e h a s g i v e n
e v i d e n c e th e r e is a n e e d fo r y o u to c o m e b a c k a n d d e a l w i t h w h a t h e
s a i d a b o u t y o u t h e n y o u c a n b e g i v e n a c h a n c e , h o w is th a t?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir.

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a s o i n o t h e r w o r d s i f y o u a r e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s a n d i t
is s o m e t h i n g y o u k n o w y o u a n s w e r t h a t a s f a r a s I k n o w t h i s i s t h e
p o s i ti o n .

B u t w h e n h e h a s g i v e n e v id e n c e a n d t o t h e e x te n t th a t h e

i m p l ic a t e s y o u a n d i t i s s o m e th in g y o u h a v e n o t d e a l t w i th y o u c a n
come back and be given a chance to deal with it.
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

I th i n k i t w i ll b e u n f a ir

C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A h a . Te ll m e w h y ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:
10

R e a s o n b e in g t h e m a n is

i m p l ic a t i n g m e o n c e r t a in a s p e c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Because…
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u d o n o t k n o w w h a t h e h a s t o s a y a b o u t i t?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : S o r r y C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w w h a t h e s a y s ?
MR

H LA U D I

GEORGE

MOTSOENENG:

I

have

seen

a

p o r ti o n

C h a ir p e r s o n o f w h a t h e is s a y i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG:
20

B u t b e c a u s e h e is i m p l ic a ti n g

m e h e m u s t t e ll t h e s to r y s o t h a t I a m a b l e t o r e s p o n d b e c a u s e I d o n o t
w a n t to r e s p o n d p i e c e m e a l .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : A s s t u ff C h a ir p e r s o n . H e is t h e
o n e w h o h a s i m p lic a t e d m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

I want him to come and give

evidence.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG:

S o th a t I c a n c o m e a n d r e p l y

C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e r e a r e s o m e is s u e s t h a t h e is r a is i n g th e r e b u t
I d o n o t w a n t t o – b e c a u s e I c a n n o t g iv e c o m m i s s i o n C h a ir p e r s o n
w i t h o u t d e a l in g w i th th e s e is s u e s . B u t b e c a u s e h e h a s – i f h e d id n o t
i m p l ic a t e m e , c o m e a f t e r, n o p r o b le m C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Norman I am not sure what you may have to say
10

a b o u t t h a t.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C h a ir i n d e e d th e r e i s – t h e r e is – th e r e

a r e a l l e g a ti o n s a n d e s p e c i a lly i n p a r t ic u l a r i n p a r a g r a p h 4 7 o f M r
K r u g e r ’s s t a t e m e n t w h e r e h e s a y s :
“ H o w e v e r a c h a n g e o f Mi n is t e r s a g a i n p u t t h e S T B
c o n tr o l s y s t e m f u r th e r i n d is p u t e w h e n M i n is t e r F a i t h
M u t h a m b i w i t h fu ll s u p p o r t fr o m M r M o ts o e n e n g
decided to go against the government and ANC
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s th a t a S T B c o n tr o l s y s te m b e
i m p l e m e n te d i n th e D T T n e t w o r k . ”
20

S o t h a t i s th e e x t e n t a s f a r a s I c a n r e c a ll . C h a ir i t – w h a t is m e a n s
t h e n i s t h a t Mr M o t s o e n e n g ’s e v i d e n c e o n t h is a s p e c t w o u l d h a v e t o b e
h e a r d a g a i n a f t e r t o m o r r o w a f te r M r K r u g e r t e s t if i e s t o m o r r o w a n d t h e n
p o s s i b ly c o n t in u e w i th h i m t h e n h e a d d r e s s e d w h a t M r K r u g e r s a y s .
B u t i t j u s t d i s r u p ts t h e e n t ir e p l a n r e a l ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o t t o fi n is h e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w i ll t e ll y o u M r M o t s o e n e n g w h a t m y t h i n k i n g is

w i t h o u t h a v i n g r e a l ly lo o k e d a t w h a t h e h a s t o s a y. I l o o k a t t h e f a c t
t h a t y o u s a y I a m h e r e t o j u s t te ll th e c o m m i s s io n w h a t I k n o w a n d t o
e x p l a i n m y d e c is i o n s t h e w a y I u n d e r s t o o d t h e m a n d t h e c o m m i s s i o n
w i ll d e c i d e y o u k n o w if I w a s r i g h t o r w r o n g b u t I w il l t e l l th e
c o m m i s s io n w h a t I k n o w a n d it i s th e t r u t h . I l o o k a t it fr o m t h a t a n g l e
a n d fr o m t h e a n g l e t h a t i t is n o t r e a lly li k e i n a c o u r t c a s e y o u k n o w
w h e r e y o u a r e fa c i n g e a c h o t h e r y o u k n o w. I t is a n in q u ir y. B u t I a m
10

n o t w a n ti n g t o m a k e a r u l in g . I a m n o t w a n ti n g to m a k e a r u l in g a t t h i s
s t a g e . I a m j u s t s h a r i n g w it h y o u w h a t m y t h i n k i n g i s b e c a u s e b a s e d o n
t h a t i t m a y b e t h a t w e c a n m a k e p r o g r e s s . W h a t I w a s th i n k i n g w a s y o u
m i g h t b e a b l e t o s a y, l o o k I a m a b l e t o – I w ill a n s w e r w h a t I c a n b u t i n
r e g a r d t o c e r t a in t h in g s m a y b e t h a t s o m e b o d y e l s e m i g h t s a y a b o u t m e
I m ig h t h a v e t o c o m e b a c k a n d d e a l w i t h t h e m b u t in t e r m s o f t h a t w h ic h
I c a n d e a l w i t h I a m h a p p y to d e a l w i th . Th a t – t h a t w a s m y t h in k i n g
t h a t y o u m ig h t b e a b l e t o s a y w h a t I k n o w I c a n t e l l y o u b u t if I – d o n o t
a s k m e a b o u t c e r t a i n t h i n g s b e c a u s e I d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d e x a c t ly w h a t
h e is s a y i n g a b o u t m e .

20

Maybe he should come and explain what he

s a y s a b o u t m e t h e n I c a n c o m e b a c k . I a m ju s t t h i n k i n g a l o u d w h a t I
a m t h i n k in g .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ex c u s e m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To s e e w h e th e r th a t m i g h t h e lp u s to m a k e p r o g r e s s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o r r y e x c u s e m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C o u n s e l fo r M r M o ts o e n e n g w o u ld l ik e t o
address you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s – le t u s h e a r.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : J a th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : F o r t h e o p p o r t u n i ty. C h a ir r e m e m b e r o n e o f
t h e i s s u e s w h ic h is q u i te p e r t i n e n t i n t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 3 4 o f t h e
10

C o n s t i tu t io n i s th e r ig h t to a c c e s s a fo r u m a n d t h is is t h e o n l y t i m e t h a t
M r M o ts o e n e n g c a n b e a b l e to a d d r e s s th i s f o r u m , t h is in q u i r y a n d I a m
a w a r e t h a t w e a r e u s i n g a n i n q u is it o r ia l a p p r o a c h h e r e a n d I w i ll
s u g g e s t t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d t h r o u g h t o y o u C h a ir t h a t h e c a n
a d d r e s s t h e M u l ti c h o ic e is s u e s a s c o n t a i n e d i n h is a ffi d a v it e x c l u d i n g
t h e t e s ti m o n y o f Mr K r u g e r a n d t h e n w h e n M r Kr u g e r h a s g i v e n h is
evidence only then can he take a stand.

Because we are not sure

w h e t h e r Mr K r u g e r is g o i n g t o i m p l ic a te h i m o r h e i s g o in g t o r e t r a c t o r
a m e n d h i s s ta t e m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

We do not know what can happen on the

witness stand.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : S o I w il l s u g g e s t th a t w e p r o c e e d w i t h w h a t
is c o n t a i n e d in h i s a ff id a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : A n d t h e n p u t in h i a tu s t h e is s u e s o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : M r Kr u g e r ’s te s t i m o n y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

T h o s e w o u l d b e m y s u b m i s s i o n C h a ir.

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a n k y o u .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms N o r m a n w h a t d o y o u t h i n k a b o u t t h a t?
10

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

C h a ir I t h i n k t h a t w o u ld – t h a t w o u l d b e

t h e b e s t w a y o f d e a l in g w i t h i t b u t a g a in C h a ir th e 3 . 3 i n v i te s t h e
i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n to g i v e a v e r s io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To a p a r t ic u l a r i s s u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

W h ic h i s w h a t w e h a v e d o n e a s th e

c o m m i s s io n w h ic h is t h e i m p li c a t io n t h a t is c o n ta in e d in t h o s e f e w
paragraphs.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : I d o n o t th i n k i t w o u l d h u r t Mr M o t s o e n e n g
t o j u s t d e a l r o u g h l y w i th t h a t a l le g a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B e c a u s e i f i t i n u n tr u e h e c a n e a s i ly s a y

w h a t e v e r i t is t h a t Mr K r u g e r s a y s th e r e it i s u n tr u e a n d th e n h e c a n
e l a b o r a t e i f h e w is h e s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B u t r e a l ly t h e i m p l ic a t i o n d o e s n o t –

b e c a u s e i t d e f e a ts t h e w h o le p u r p o s e o f a v e r s i o n t o a R u l e 3 .3
because it would mean now that before a person can respond to a Rule
3 .3 N o ti c e t h a t p e r s o n m u s t a ll o w t h e i m p l ic a to r to a c t u a l ly g i v e
e v i d e n c e f ir s t . I m e a n i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t h a s h e n o t r e s p o n d e d t o th e s t a te m e n t ?
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

No.

U n f o r t u n a t e ly C h a ir h e h a s fi l e d a

s u p p l e m e n t a r y – Mr M o t s o e n e n g h a s fi le d a s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t
10

o n M o n d a y th is w e e k b u t t h a t s u p p l e m e n t a r y s ta t e m e n t d o e s n o t d e a l
w i t h t h e v e r s io n s lik e a s I h a v e b e e n p u tt i n g t h e … …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Th e i m p lic a ti o n s . H e d o e s n o t s a y i n s o fa r
a s K r u g e r s a y s th is is w h a t I s a y.

M r K r u g e r s a y t h is is w h a t I s a y.

I n s o f a r a s M s Pi ll a y s a y s th is i s w h a t I s a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o t h a t d o e s n o t – i t i s s ti ll a v e r y g e n e r a l
s t a te m e n t a n d I b e l i e v e t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: The work of the commission would be best
s e r v e d i f h e d e a ls w i t h t h e M u l tic h o i c e is s u e n o w a n d a s y o u h a v e
s u g g e s t e d e a r li e r C h a ir t o t h e e x t e n t th a t h e f e e l s th a t h e m i g h t w a n t t o
e l a b o r a t e a f t e r Mr K r u g e r h a s t e s t i fi e d t h e n h e m a y ju s t d o th a t b y w a y
o f a n a ffi d a v i t a n d c h e c k a n d d e c i d e w h e t h e r h e s h o u ld c o m e b a c k t o
t e s ti fy t o t h a t.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h e – a n o t h e r a p p r o a c h w h ic h m a y b e i n l i n e w it h
w h a t h is c o u n s e l h a s i n d ic a te d m ig h t b e t o s a y i f h e d i d n o t d e a l w i th
t h o s e a ll e g a t io n s i n h is s u p p l e m e n ta r y s t a te m e n t o r a ff id a v i t is t o s a y
is t h a t h e b e a s k e d t o d o s o .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e c a u s e p a r t o f h a v i n g t h e b e n e fi t o f a w r i t te n

r e s p o n s e is to s e e w h a t w il l b e a d m i t t e d a n d w h a t w i ll n o t b e a d m i tt e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : B e d e n ie d . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o – s o I a m th in k i n g th a t i f t h e r e is n o t s u c h a

w r i t t e n r e s p o n s e th a t m a y b e w e – h e b e a s k e d to p r o v id e s u c h a w r i t t e n
r e s p o n s e b u t i n t h e m e a n ti m e m a y b e i n l in e w i th th e s u g g e s t io n f r o m
h is c o u n s e l y o u – w e c o v e r w h a t w e c a n o n t h e u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t h e
w i ll fi le a s u p p le m e n t a r y s t a t e m e n t t h a t w i l l d e a l w i th w h a t h e d id n o t …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : D e a l w i th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n s w e r.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: And – and then depending on what the other person
w i ll s a y h e m i g h t h a v e to c o m e b a c k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d d e a l w i t h i t.

I f o b v io u s ly i f t h e o t h e r p e r s o n s

c o m e s a n d s a y s n o I th in k I w a s m is t a k e n o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t f a l ls a w a y
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o tr u e C h a ir. Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i f i t is f in e l e t u s d e a l w i t h i t o n t h a t b a s is t h a t h e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
w i ll b e – y o u w i ll a s k h i m a b o u t t h e p a r ts t h a t d o n o t r e l a t e t o w h a t h e
m u s t s t il l f il e i n a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t a b o u t.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O h o k a y. Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : S o r r y j u s t b r i e f ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h e r e i s o n e i s s u e . W h e n Mr M o ts o e n e n g
10

w a s s e r v e d w i t h a n u m b e r o f R u le 3 . 3 N o t i c e s p e r t a i n i n g t o a n u m b e r o f
w i t n e s s e s th e y w e r e c o mi n g i n a c a s c a d in g fa s h i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

A n d w e w e r e n o t s u r e n o w w h e th e r to

r e s p o n d i m m e d i a te ly o r n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

A n d w e w r o t e a le t t e r t h r o u g h th e

in s t r u c t i n g a tt o r n e y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :
20

To th e c o m m i s s i o n t o s a y t h a t w e c a n n o t

h a v e t h i s R u l e 3 . 3 N o t ic e s i n a p ie c e m e a l f a s h i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : B e c a u s e i t s o r t o f r e s tr ic ts h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

B e c a u s e w h e n h e is a b o u t to a n s w e r o n e

a n o t h e r t h e n a n o t h e r o n e is in t h e in b o x .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON: Another one comes in yes.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

R a t h e r g iv e u s a ll th e s ta t e m e n ts t h a t

i m p l ic a t e h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h e n w e w il l i n o n e s w i f t a c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : R e p ly to t h e m a ls o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a t w e w il l d e a l w i t h a ll t h e is s u e s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA :

Hence that way has always been our

approach.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a t is w h a t w e i n t i m a t e d a n d i n d ic a te d t o
the secretariat of the commission.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
A D V M A C G R E G O R K U FA : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no that is fine. I think
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir m a y b e ju s t o n t h a t . I t is i m p o s s ib le
20

t o w a i t fo r a ll th e 3 . 3 ’s b e c a u s e th e c o m m is s i o n d o e s n o t k n o w w h o is
g o i n g t o i m p lic a t e w h o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o a s th e s t a t e m e n t s c o m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : N o t ic e s g e t is s u e d .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON: The sooner they arrive.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Tr u e o t h e r w is e …
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u n e v e r k n o w w h e th e r y o u h a v e g o t a ll o f th e m

n o w.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : P r e c i s e ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o t h e r i m p l ic a te d p e r s o n s d o n o t r e s p o n d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir t h a t is …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a t is t h e r e a l it y o f t h e s i tu a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is fi n e b u t I t h i n k w h a t c a n b e d o n e is t h a t a n
a r r a n g e m e n t c a n b e m a d e i n t e r m s o f w h ic h b y a c e r t a i n d a te h e w il l
fi le a s u p p le m e n t a r y a ffi d a v it o r s t a te m e n t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D e a l in g w i t h e v e r y th i n g t h a t h e h a s n o t d e a lt w i t h .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S h a l l w e t h e n p r o c e e d C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y th a n k y o u . Ye s M r M o ts o e n e n g y o u
h e a r d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ’s d ir e c ti v e . T h o s e m a t t e r s t h a t y o u d o n o t w is h
t o d e a l w it h th e n w e c o u l d d e a l w i t h t h e m s e p a r a te ly i n w r i ti n g a s y o u r

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c o u n s e l h a s s u g g e s te d to C h a ir.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir I a m i n y o u r h a n d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o t h a t is – I t h i n k y o u a r e i n – y o u w i ll n o t
b e u n h a p p y w i th t h i s a r r a n g e m e n t I t h i n k .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : N o t a t a l l C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t w il l r e m a i n is ju s t t h a t a d e a d li n e b e a g r e e d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

B e t w e e n t h e t w o l e g a l t e a m s a s t o w h e n t h a t w il l

happen.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: When that will happen.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u .

Ye s M r M o ts o e n e n g I h a d

a s k e d h o w d i d – w e k n o w o f th e M u l ti c h o i c e a n d t h e S A B C a g r e e m e n t
c o u l d y o u j u s t te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t b r o u g h t t h a t a b o u t? W h a t w a s
– t h e i n it i a l s ta g e s o f t h e 2 4 h o u r c h a n n e l p la n n i n g a n d c o u l d y o u ju s t
20

t a k e t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h a t?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:
much.

C h a ir p e r s o n th a n k y o u v e r y

I t h i n k it is v e r y i m p o r t a n t t o g iv e b a c k g r o u n d a b o u t th e

M u l tic h o ic e is s u e s .

M u l t ic h o ic e a n d S A B C w e h a v e b e e n w o r k in g

t o g e th e r w h e n it c o m e s to s p o r ts r i g h t s . W h e n i t c o m e s t o o t h e r is s u e s
r e l a ti n g t o b r o a d c a s t in g i s s u e s . B u t th e i s s u e th a t w a s a c o n c e r n n o t

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
f o r m e , n o t f o r S A B C b u t f o r a ll p e o p le o f S o u t h A fr ic a .

It was why

S A B C i s n o t h a v i n g a 2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e l . W h y E - T V is h a v in g a 2 4
hour news channel.

Those were the issues and the background what

in f o r m s a n d i s n o t h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n i t is n o t a p a r tn e r s h ip h e r e . Ye s i t
is n o t a p a r tn e r s h ip . F ir s t ly a f t e r p r e s s u r e fr o m t h e p u b lic i n c l u d i n g th e
P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e t o s a y w h y y o u d o n o t h a v e s u c h c h a n n e l s . I th i n k
t h e fo r m e r G C O L u l a m a M o k h o b o a n d D o c to r N g u b a n a p p r o a c h t h e
M u l tic h o ic e to s a y b u t w e h a v e m a n y c h a n n e ls t h e r e w h y c a n y o u n o t
c a t e r f o r S A B C a ls o s o th a t w e a l s o c o m p e t e w it h o t h e r b r o a d c a s t e r s
10

b e c a u s e w e a r e c o m p e ti n g C h a ir p e r s o n w e a r e b r o a d c a s te r s .
w e n t a n d e n g a g e M u l ti c h o ic e .

Th e y

I t h i n k I d id a ll u d e th a t C h a ir p e r s o n

y e s t e r d a y a n d th e b o a r d th e y w e r e n o t h a p p y a b o u t th a t p r o c e s s b u t
t h e y r e c ti fy t h a t p r o c e s s .

A n d a f t e r th a t t h e b o a r d a p p r o v e t h a t a

c h a n n e l . T h e o n ly i s s u e th a t w a s o u ts t a n d i n g i t w a s th e f in a n c ia ls o f
t h e S A B C b e c a u s e t h e a g r e e m e n t b e t w e e n th e f o r m e r G C O L u l a m a
M a k h o b o a n d t h e M u l t ic h o ic e th e y w e r e a l lo c a ti n g – t h e y w e r e f u n d in g
S A B C 5 0 m il li o n f o r 5 y e a r s . B u t th a t 5 0 m il li o n t h e y w e r e s a y in g th e
fir s t y e a r i t i s 5 0 . I t g o e s d o w n b y 1 0 , 1 0 u n ti l it is z e r o . B e c a u s e i n
t h e ir
20

v ie w

th e y

were

thinking

SABC

w i ll

sustain

i ts e lf

through

a d v e r t is e r s , s p o n s o r s h i p a n d a l l t h o s e a d v e r ts b e c a u s e t h a t is h o w w e
b r o a d c a s t e r s g e n e r a te r e v e n u e C h a ir p e r s o n . S o …
CHAIRPERSON:

Before

–

I

am sorry

before

you

proceed

Mr

M o ts o e n e n g I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d a n d y o u m u s t a p p r e c i a t e th a t o n e
is n o t i n t h e s e c t o r.

I f E - T V c o u ld h a v e a 2 4 h o u r c h a n n e l o r i f

s o m e b o d y e l s e c o u l d h a v e 2 4 h o u r s n e w s c h a n n e l w h y w o u ld S A B C n o t

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
h a v e i ts o w n n e w s c h a n n e l w i t h o u t g o i n g to s o m e b o d y e ls e to fi n d a
p a r t n e r o r fi n d s o m e a s s i s ta n c e o f s o m e k in d .

Wa s t h a t b e c a u s e i t

w o u ld h a v e b e e n t o o e x p e n s iv e o r w h a t?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n a s a p u b l ic

b r o a d c a s t e r S A B C i t is S A B C m a n d a t e t o h a v e m o r e c h a n n e ls a n d
s e r v e t h e p u b lic in t e r e s t . N e w s c h a n n e l i s o n e o f t h e p u b li c i n te r e s t s
t h a t p e o p l e o f S o u th A fr ic a a r e l o o k in g a t s o t h a t t h a t in f o r m a t io n c a n
b e s p r e a d i n t h e c o u n tr y e v e n o u ts id e t h e c o u n t r y a s i t is h a p p e n i n g
n o w b e c a u s e t h e c h a n n e l is n o t ju s t i n S o u th A f r i c a i t i s a c r o s s t h e
10

b o r d e r s o f o t h e r c o u n tr ie s .

S o C h a ir p e r s o n I s a i d w e a r e c o m p e t i n g .

W e a r e a b r o a d c a s t e r – w e a r e a p u b lic b r o a d c a s t e r s o a p a r tn e r s h ip
C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w a s n o t th e v i e w w h e n e s p e c ia ll y i t c o m e s t o t h is
is s u e b e c a u s e I t h i n k p e o p l e w h o a p p r o a c h t h e y a p p r o a c h to s a y w e
w a n t o u r o w n 2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e l C h a ir p e r s o n . A n d i f y o u a r e h a p p y
a b o u t t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n c a n I m o v e o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o I a m n o t s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d i t . H e r e is S A B C .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : P u b lic b r o a d c a s te r, b ig i n s ti t u ti o n h a s t h e s u p p o r t o f
government.
20

I t w a n ts a 2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e l w h y m u s t i t g o to

M u l tic h o ic e ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: Oh okay Chair I see.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n o r d e r t o – t o a c h i e v e w h a t i t w a n ts n a m e ly t o h a v e
a 24 hour news channel?
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSO ENENG:

C h a ir p e r s o n w e d o n o t h a v e a

b o u q u e t lik e M u l tic h o i c e t h e y h a v e m a n y t h a t is w h y y o u h a v e m a n y

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
channels.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h a r e a l r e a d y e x i s ti n g ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n t h e o n ly is s u e
t h a t w e h a v e is o n ly 3 c h a n n e ls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

D u r i n g th e m ig r a ti o n t h a t is

w h e r e th e q u e s t io n th a t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t it w i ll a r is e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:
10

To s a y b u t y o u h a v e t h is

tr a n s m i tt e r s n o w w h y d o y o u w a n t M u l t ic h o ic e ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORG E MOTSOEN ENG:

B u t c u r r e n t ly o n ly M u l ti c h o ic e

c a n s p r e a d n e w s f o r S A B C C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay so now in order to have a channel do you need
t o b e li c e n c e d b y I C A S A o r s o m e b o d y a n d b e c a u s e th e y m a y h a v e
lic e n c e d s o m e b o d y e ls e li k e M u lt ic h o ic e a n d g i v e n th e m p e r m is s io n to
h a v e m a n y c h a n n e l s i t w o u l d b e d i ffic u lt t o g e t – t o g o t o I C A S A a n d
say we want a channel of our own.

T h a t is w h e r e I a m t r y i n g t o

u n d e r s t a n d w h y – w h y if I w a n t a c a r w h y m u s t I g o t o M r M o t s o e n e n g
20

a n d s a y H e y I w a n t t o b u y a c a r w h y d o I n o t j u s t b u y a c a r – th e c a r
m y s e l f w i t h o u t ta lk in g to h i m ?
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : C h a ir p e r s o n m a y b e t o p u t i n a
la n g u a g e t h a t I t h in k a ll o f u s w i ll u n d e r s t a n d .

L e t u s t a k e th r e e

c h a n n e l s – S A B C . W e o n ly h a v e t h o s e t h r e e t r a n s m i t t e r s w h ic h m e a n s
y o u c a n n o t g o b e y o n d t h o s e th r e e c h a n n e ls in t h a t p l a t fo r m o f t h e

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
SABC.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

Yo u c a n o n ly d o t h a t d u r in g a

m i g r a t i o n b e c a u s e n o w y o u w il l b e a ll o w e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t e c h n o l o g ic a lly y o u c o u l d n o t d o it ? Yo u c o u ld n o t
– S A B C c o u ld n o t h a v e a n o t h e r c h a n n e l o f i ts o w n d u r i n g th e p e r io d o f
w h a t a n a l o g u e is th a t w h a t i t is c a ll e d ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s t h e p o s i ti o n ?
10

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t M u l t ic h o ic e w a s – a lr e a d y h a d a n u m b e r o f

tr a n s m i tt e r s o r c h a n n e l s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d S A B C c o u ld a c q u ir e a n o t h e r c h a n n e l b y h a v in g

a n a g r e e m e n t w i t h M u l ti c h o ic e ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o w I u n d e r s ta n d .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOENENG:

A n d a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n I t h i n k

t h e i m p o r t a n t b a c k g r o u n d i s t h i s c h a n n e l i t is a p il o t p r o je c t f o r d ig i ta l
20

migration.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : W h ic h m e a n s w h e n w e m i g r a t e
t h o s e c h a n n e l s a r e n o t g o i n g t o s i t i n t h e b o u q u e t o f M u l t ic h o ic e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : T h e y w i ll m o v e to S A B C .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y, o k a y, a l r i g h t . S o t h a t is w h y th e y h a d t o g o
t o M u l ti c h o ic e ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r th e C h a ir p e r s o n a n d t h e G C E O ?
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. C o n ti n u e .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE M OTSO ENENG: So Chairperson…
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t – w a s t h e p r o b l e m o f R 5 0 m i ll io n w h ic h w a s

g o i n g to g o d o w n e v e r y y e a r u n til i t c a m e t o z e r o ?
10

J a I th i n k w h e n I

in t e r r u p t e d y o u y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . S o th e b o a r d
s a i d n o t h e y c a n n o t h a v e t h is c h a n n e l b e c a u s e i t is n o t s u s t a i n a b l e . I
t h i n k w e e v e n m a k e a r e q u e s t fr o m Tr e a s u r y t o f u n d t h e c h a n n e l . T h e
f o r m e r M i n i s te r P r a v in G o r d h a n r e j e c t t h a t p r o p o s a l a n d t h e fo r m e r
M i n is t e r D y n a P h u le [ ? ] s a i d b e c a u s e th e r e i s n o m o n e y n o w y o u c a n
d o w h a t e v e r th a t y o u n e e d to d o i f y o u c o u l d d o i t s o th a t y o u h a v e
c h a n n e l b u t s h e w a s n o t s a y i n g g o a n d d o 1 ,2 , 3 .

S h e w a s s a y in g

b r o a d l y s o C h a ir p e r s o n . I d e c id e d C h a i r p e r s o n t o a p p r o a c h M u l t ic h o ic e
20

a ft e r w e f a i le d – a f te r [i n d is t in c t] D o c t o r N g u b a n e f a i le d t o a c q u ir e t h e
a m o u n t t h a t c a n s u s ta in t h e c h a n n e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e R 5 0 m i ll io n .
M R H L A U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R H LA U D I G E O R G E M O T S O E N E N G :

I t h i n k a ls o C h a ir p e r s o n t o

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
c la r i fy I t h i n k i t w a s 5 0 S A B C . H e s a i d n o i t is n o t s u s t a in a b l e I th in k
t h e y t o p u p w i th a n o t h e r R 2 0 m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSOEN ENG:

W h i c h w a s R 7 0 m il li o n b u t i t

w a s n o t s u s t a i n a b le C h a ir p e r s o n . T h a t c h a p te r w a s c lo s e d C h a ir p e r s o n .
H e s a id n o th e r e is n o c h a n n e l . A f t e r t h e c h a p t e r h a s b e e n c l o s e d a s I
w a s s a y in g C h a ir p e r s o n y o u n e e d t h i n k e r s a n d y o u n e e d t o h a v e p e o p le
w i t h c e r ta i n s k il ls to d e a l w i t h i n n o v a ti o n o f c h a n n e ls . I w e n t b a c k t o
M u l tic h o ic e t o s a y t o th e m l o o k w e s til l n e e d 2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e l b u t
10

I c o n s u l t e d D o c t o r N g u b a n e b e f o r e I c a n d o t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .

And

D o c to r N g u b a n e s a i d h e y H la u d i y o u a r e c r a z y m a n , y o u n g m a n y o u a r e
c r a z y. D o y o u th in k w h e n M u l ti c h o ic e c o u l d n o t g iv e u s m o n e y t h e y w il l
g iv e y o u m o n e y ?

I s a id C h a ir p e r s o n g i v e m e a n o p p o r t u n i ty I w il l d o

t h a t . I t h i n k I c a n a c h ie v e t h is f u n d in g .
C h a ir - I w a s j u s t ta lk in g C h a ir p e r s o n a n d th e n D r N g u b a n e
s a i d n o i t is f i n e . Yo u c a n g o a n d e n g a g e t h e m . I w e n t a n d e n g a g e d
t h e m C h a ir p e r s o n .

I t w a s n o t e a s y C h a ir p e r s o n .

W e w e r e f ig h ti n g

b e c a u s e w h e n I a p p r o a c h e d t h e C O O o f M u lt i C h o ic e h e s a i d to m e
H l a u d i s o m e t i m e s i t s e e m s a s i f y o u a r e m a d a n d I s a i d t h is i s a g o o d
20

m a d n e s s b e c a u s e i t i s i n t h e i n te r e s t o f t h e S A B C .
R e a s o n b e in g C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I m o t iv a t e d t h e s e i s s u e s o f
u s I s a i d y o u a s a p r iv a t e s e c t o r n o w y o u a r e a l s o b e n e fi t ti n g d ir e c tl y
s o o r i n d ir e c t ly s o b e c a u s e o u r t h r e e c h a n n e ls t h e y a r e s i t ti n g i n y o u r
b o u q u e t a n d p e o p l e a r e w a tc h i n g o u r c h a n n e ls a n d th e y a r e m o s t
w a t c h e d c h a n n e ls . H e s a id n o , b u t t h e r e is M u s t- C a r r y R e g u l a ti o n s . I

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
s a i d n o I a m a w a r e a b o u t r e g u la t io n s b u t I t h in k y o u c a n a s s is t t h e
S A B C f o r d ig i ta l m ig r a ti o n .
Yo u c a n f u n d a 2 4 h o u r n e w s c h a n n e l s o t h a t w h e n w e
m i g r a t e a t l e a s t S A B C y o u - w e h a v e th e s e c h a n n e ls a n d a ls o p a r tl y
b e c a u s e y o u h a v e b e n e fi t t e d b e c a u s e o f M u s t- C a r r y R e g u la t io n s a n d t o
d e a l w i th M u s t- C a r r y R e g u la t io n s C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e w h e n t h e r e w a s
t h a t p r o c e s s o f t a l k i n g to p e o p le t h e G o v e r n m e n t v ie w w a s S A B C a l l
p e o p l e o f S o u t h A fr ic a s h a ll b e a b l e t o w a tc h S A B C b e c a u s e th e y d o
n o t w a n t S A B C t o - t o - p e o p le o n s a t e l li t e n o t t o s e e w h a t G o v e r n m e n t
10

is d o i n g o r t h e - t h e e v e n ts i n t h e c o u n t r y g e n e r a l ly.
T h e y w a n t to m a k e s u r e t h a t i t is b r o a d e n e d .
a v a i la b le

everywhere.

R e g u l a ti o n s

C h a ir p e r s o n .

That
So

is

why
a ft e r

you
that

have

that

Chairperson

S A B C is
M u s t- C a r r y
a f te r

that

d is c u s s io n w e d is c u s s e d - w e d id n o t c o n c l u d e i m m e d ia t e l y b e c a u s e
C h a ir p e r s o n I r e m e m b e r t h e m a n w a lk e d o u t. J u s t w a l k e d o u t a n d t h e n
I w a s la u g h i n g a l o n e .
I s a i d n o h e d o e s n o t k n o w m e . I a m g o in g t o f ig h t t h i s b a t t le
C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t t h e y m u s t a s s is t t h e S A B C a n d th e n I t h i n k y o u k n o w
t e m p e r s s o m e t i m e s i t g o e s u p b u t a t a c e r t a i n p o i n t y o u w i ll f in d
20

y o u r s e l f a n d t h e n I a s k e d my PA t o c a ll h i m t o s a y w e m u s t t a lk n o t
a b o u t ju s t 4 0 4 i n c l u d in g s p o r ts r i g h t s .

A ll t h o s e i s s u e s C h a ir p e r s o n

a n d th e n h e c a m e a n d th e n i n t h a t m e e ti n g w e f in d e a c h o t h e r - f o u n d
e a c h o t h e r b e c a u s e I e x p la i n e d t o h i m w h y w e s h o u l d h a v e t h i s c h a n n e l
a n d I w a s a l s o a w a r e t h a t M u lt i C h o i c e i s p a y i n g f o r E . T V C h a n n e l t h a t
is s i t t in g i n th a t b o u q u e t a n d o t h e r c h a n n e l s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
T h e y a r e a ls o s i t ti n g t h e r e - n e w s c h a n n e l s . S o I s a i d n o y o u
m u s t a s s i s t a p u b l ic b r o a d c a s t e r.

I d o n o t th in k it is a b a d th i n g t o

a s s is t a p u b li c b r o a d c a s t e r C h a ir p e r s o n w h ic h C h a i r p e r s o n a t th e e n d
of the road they agreed with us.

S o th e n e g o t i a t i o n s w e s ta r t e d t h e

n e g o ti a ti o n s w it h in S A B C l o o k i n g f o r f u n d i n g C h a ir p e r s o n . S o th a t t h e y
c a n - b e c a u s e e v e n i f w e a r e h a v i n g th e - t h e m a n y c h a n n e ls i n t h a t
S A B C C h a i r p e r s o n y o u w ill n e v e r s u c c e e d if y o u d o n o t h a v e f u n d s .
Yo u m u s t s e c u r e f u n d s a n d y o u h a v e c h a n n e ls .

Th a t is t h e

b a c k g r o u n d C h a ir p e r s o n .
10

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: No thank you …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ve r y m u c h fo r t h e b a c k g r o u n d .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: I see we are at two minutes past four or so.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

I w a s g o in g to s u g g e s t t h a t w e a d jo u r n

C h a ir …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : A n d t h e n p o s s ib ly to m o r r o w w e c o u ld s t a r t
at 9 o’ clock …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : To tr y a n d c o v e r a ll t h e o t h e r a s p e c ts w i t h
M r M o ts o e n e n g .

Page 173 of 177

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B e fo r e w e c a l l t h e n e x t w i t n e s s w h o s e

fl ig h t h a s t o - d e p a r ts a t h a l f p a s t t w o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : S o w h a t i s m e a n s I - w e r e a ll y h a v e t o tr y
a n d fi n i s h t h a t w i t n e s s q u i t e e a r l y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

B u t w it h y o u r l e a v e C h a ir b u t I s t il l th in k

t h a t e v e n i f w e w e r e t o s ta r t a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k w e s h o u l d b e a b l e t o c o v e r
10

b e c a u s e i t is j u s t n o w a f e w …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

M a t t e r s t h a t a r e le f t t o - t o d e a l w i th

M r M o ts o e n e n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . W e - w e c o u ld s ta r t a l i t tl e e a r ly. I d o h a v e t w o
o r s o C o m m i s s io n M e e ti n g s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k t h e n e x t - w h ic h s t a r ts i n t h e n e x t f e w m i n u te s
…
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O r q u a r t e r p a s t o r h a lf p a s t .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M a y b e - b u t w e c a n s t il l d o 1 0 o ’ c l o c k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e M r M o ts o e n e n g w e th o u g h t w e - y o u w o u l d b e
a b l e t o f i n is h to d a y b u t w e h a d t o o m a n y q u e s t io n s f o r y o u a n d w e a r e
n o t d o n e . S o w o u l d y o u b e a b l e to c o m e b a c k t o m o r r o w ?
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

Page 174 of 177

Chairperson

th r o u g h

11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s t h i n k in g C h a ir p e r s o n i f w e f in a l is e th e M u lt i C h o i c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

When I come tomorrow I deal

w i t h o t h e r m a tt e r s C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:

B e c a u s e I t h i n k i t i s - i t is

e a s i e r to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR HLAUDI GEORGE MOTSO ENENG:
10

I

do

not

know

what

the

a d v o c a t e i s g o i n g t o a s k m e b u t I th i n k ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h e o n ly c h a ll e n g e C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : C h a ir b e c a u s e o f th e c o n ti n u o u s h e a r in g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

T h e o n ly ti m e w e a r e a b le t o s e e

witnesses and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To c o n s u l t o t h e r w i t n e s s e s i s a f t e r …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , i s o n l y a f te r f o u r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s C h a ir. T h a t is t h e o n ly c h a l l e n g e w e
have.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Yo u k n o w s o m e ti m e s w e - q u it e o f t e n w e g o

b e y o n d f o u r a n d g o t o f iv e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e ti m e s w e h a v e g o n e …
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

To e v e n s ix .

I think one or two occasions we have

gone even up to seven.
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Seven, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e w e e k - o n e w e e k w e w e n t - w e s a t o n a S a tu r d a y
a n d s o m e ti m e b e f o r e th e e n d o f S e p t e m b e r w e w i ll s it o n a n o t h e r
S a t u r d a y a s w e l l.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w e - w e d o g o b e y o n d 4 o ’ c l o c k s o m e ti m e s b u t I
t h i n k M s N o r m a n h a s t h a t c h a l le n g e b u t a l s o I h a v e s o m e o t h e r
C o m m i s s i o n M e e t in g s t h a t a r e - a r e u r g e n t . I w o u l d h a v e l ik e d t h a t w e
- we - we do as much as possible.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O t h e r w is e I c o u l d e v e n h a v e g o n e u p t o s ix i f

everybody was fine.

S o m a y b e b e c a u s e o f th a t l e t u s - le t u s s ta r t

e a r ly t o m o r r o w i f th a t is f in e .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : M i g h t ju s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : E n q u ir e i f t h e y a r e a v a il a b l e C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

T h e y - t h e y w i ll m a k e

t h e m s e l v e s a v a il a b l e f o r t o m o r r o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , f in e . T h e y w il l m a k e t h e m s e l v e s a v a il a b l e ?
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : Ye s , th a n k y o u .

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11 SEPTEMBER 2019 – DAY 161
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. N o , th a n k y o u . L e t u s s t a r t th e r e fo r e a t 9 o ’

c lo c k to m o r r o w. S o th a t w e c a n c o v e r a s m u c h a s p o s s i b le …
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d fi n i s h a s e a r l y a s p o s s i b l e w it h r e g a r d t o h i s

evidence.
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV THANDI NORMAN SC: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We are going to adjourn. Then tomorrow
10

w e w ill s t a r t a t 9 o ’ c l o c k .
A D V T H A N D I N O R M A N S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 2 S E P T E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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