C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E H E L D AT BRAAMFONTEIN CHAMBERS 10 11 M A R C H 2 0 2 0 D AY 2 2 1 20 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 11 M A R C H 2 0 2 0 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h i s h o w i t is g o i n g t o b e t h r o u g h o u t o r is i t g o i n g t o i m p r o v e ? I t w il l i m p r o v e ? O k a y a lr i g h t b e c a u s e i t l o o k s v e r y d a r k , c lo s e d b e h i n d . I t i s l ik e w e a r e in t h e d a r k . O n ly t h e f u r t h e r m o s t p a r t s o f t h e h a ll s e e m s to b e – h a v e e n o u g h l i g h ti n g . O k a y a lr ig h t w e w ill – w e w il l c o n t in u e a n d h o p e fu lly d u r in g th e c o u r s e o f t h e d a y t h e l ig h ti n g w i ll i m p r o v e . B e f o r e w e s ta r t I j u s t w a n t t o ta k e t h is o p p o r t u n i ty t o e x p r e s s m y s i n c e r e t h a n k s a n d a p p r e c ia ti o n t o t h e J o h a n n e s b u r g M u n i c i p a li t y f o r m a k i n g th is v e n u e a v a i l a b l e to t h e C o m m i s s io n fr o m 10 n o w u p t o t h e e n d o f t h e y e a r. W e a p p r e c i a te t h is v e r y m u c h . W e w is h t h a t w e h a d b e e n a b le t o g e t th is v e n u e fr o m t h e b e g i n n i n g t h e y m a d e i t a v a i la b le t o u s w i th o u t u s h a v i n g to p a y a n y r e n t a n d t h e r e f o r e a s t h e c o m m i s s io n w e w il l s a v e p a c k s o f m o n e y. S o I j u s t w a n t t o p la c e i t o n r e c o r d t h a t w e r e a lly a p p r e c i a t e t h e c o - o p e r a ti o n t h a t t h e y h a v e e x t e n d e d to u s a n d f o r m a k in g t h is f a c il it y a v a il a b l e t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n . Thank you very much. Mr Soni. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Mr C h a ir p e r s o n in t h e n e x t f e w d a y s p e r h a p s th e n e x t e ig h t d a y s w e w i ll b e h e a r i n g e v i d e n c e a b o u t P R A S A . B e f o r e I g e t in t o t h a t M r C h a ir p e r s o n … 20 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s I th i n k t h e r e is p o s s ib ly t h e s o u n d d o e s n o t a p p e a r to b e a s c l e a r a s i t s h o u ld b e a n d it p r o b a b ly h a s n o t h in g t o d o w i t h h o w f a r y o u a r e fr o m t h e m i c r o p h o n e b u t i t i s n o t a s c l e a r a s i t should be. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir p e r s o n I a m j u s t w o n d e r i n g if I – is t h a t m u c h b e t t e r i t s o u n d s a b i t b e t te r fr o m h e r e ? Page 2 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is – t h a t is b e t t e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y s o m a y b e it d o e s r e q u ir e r a is in g y o u r v o i c e a bit. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t l e t u s tr y a n d I ta k e i t t h e t e c h n ic ia n s w i ll b e w o r k i n g o n th e p r o b le m . O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a ir p e r s o n m a y I d e a l w it h a s e t o f h o u s e k e e p i n g m a t t e r s ? In r e g a r d to th e e x h ib i t r e la t in g t o t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t is g o i n g 10 t o b e l e d t h e y a ll s ta r t w i t h S S . W e h a v e t a k e n th e li b e r ty o f d i v i d i n g t h e e x h i b i ts i n t o a n u m b e r o f c a te g o r i e s a n d i f I c o u ld j u s t g o th r o u g h t h a t w i th y o u M r C h a ir p e r s o n ? Th e fir s t c a te g o r y is S S 1 a n d th is d e a l s w i t h l e g is la t io n t h a t s o m e o f t h e w it n e s s e s i n t e n d r e fe r r i n g t o . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d Mr S o n i . W h y d o w e h a v e t h i s h e r e ? W h y is t h i s h e r e ? Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e m o s t i m p o r ta n t p i e c e o f l e g is la t io n f o r th is s e s s i o n Mr C h a ir m a n is t h e l e g a l s u c c e s s io n t o t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n Tr a n s p o r t S e r v ic e s A c t w h i c h is t h e f ir s t d o c u m e n t in S S 1 . T h e s e c o n d d o c u m e n t i n S S 1 i s t h e ( in d is ti n c t) o f t h e P R A S A b o a r d a n d th e th ir d 20 s e t o f d o c u m e n t s a r e th e r e l e v a n t p r o v i s io n s o f th e P F M A t o w h ic h s o m e o f t h e w i t n e s s e s r e f e r. W e t h o u g h t w e w o u l d j u s t c o ll a te th e m s o t h a t y o u w o u l d h a v e th e m r e a d y w h e n w i tn e s s e s r e f e r t o t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s e e t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e m a r k e d o n t h e s p i n e E x h i b i t S S 1 t h a t is th e l e g is l a t i o n e x h i b i t . S S 2 t h a t is d o c u m e n ts . p l e a d in g s . Is th a t th e fi le y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t? Page 3 of 124 SS3 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t is t h e f il e y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o t h e S S 1 e ff e c ti v e ly c o n ta i n s 3 s e t s o f d o c u m e n ts M r C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e n Mr C h a ir p e r s o n I w i ll e x p l a in t h e n e e d for this. T h e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f j u d g m e n ts t h a t t a k e o n a n d a d d e d s ig n if ic a n c e f o r t h is s e s s io n o f o u r s i t ti n g s a n d w e h a v e ta k e n t h e li b e r t y o f i n c lu d in g f o u r o f th o s e j u d g m e n ts b e c a u s e r e fe r e n c e w i ll b e 10 m a d e t o t h e m d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h e t e s ti m o n y e s p e c ia ll y o f t h e t h ir d w i t n e s s w h o is g o in g t o b e c a l le d b e fo r e y o u . Th e j u d g m e n ts a r e M r C h a ir p e r s o n t h e ju d g m e n t o f th e G a u t e n g L o c a l D iv is i o n i n th e m a t te r of PRASA versus … CHAIRPERSON: O n e s e c o n d M r S o n i. I p ic k e d u p y e s t e r d a y t h a t it s e e m s t h a t w i t h r e g a r d to s o m e o f t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e s t h e r e s e e m e d t o b e n o i n d e x t o t h e c o n te n ts o f th e l e v e r a r c h f il e a n d I a m tr y i n g t o lo o k a t t h e o n e I h a v e n o w j u s t t o c h e c k w h e t h e r it h a s a n i n d e x a n d w h e th e r t h e i n d e x is o n e th a t I c a n fo ll o w ? I s e e th a t y o u – t h e r e is a n i n d e x b u t i t d o e s n o t t e l l m e w h a t p a g e s I g e t t h e – b u n d l e a n d j u d g m e n ts a n d 20 p l e a d in g s a n d b l a , b l a , b l a . B u t I s e e t h a t l a te r o n – t w o p a g e s la t e r t h e r e i s w h a t is r e fe r r e d to I n d e x E x h i b i t S S 1 a n d it s a y s , A n n e x u r e P M 1 f r o m t h e a ff id a v i t o f P S M o l e f e p a g e 1 t o 1 4 . A n d t h e n n u m b e r 2 then Act number 38 of 2008 pages 41 to 45. N o w I th i n k i t d o e s n o t lo o k l ik e t h e r e i s a n i n d e x f o r t h e e n tir e f il e o r d o e s i t e x is t s o m e w h e r e it is ju s t t h a t i t i s n o t h e r e ? I t i s m u c h b e tt e r i f I c a n lo o k a t a n i n d e x Page 4 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 at the beginning. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d i t te ll s m e w h e r e t o f in d w h a t d o c u m e n t t h e n I c a n g o s tr a i g h t t h e r e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: R a t h e r t h a n l o o k i n g a t s m a ll i n d e x e s o r s m a l l c o m p o n e n ts o f t h e f il e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 B u t i f y o u h a v e g o t s m a ll in d ic e s fo r v a r i o u s c o m p o n e n ts o f t h e f il e i t s h o u ld b e e a s y to p r o d u c e a n o v e r a l l i n d e x b e c a u s e i t is a q u e s ti o n o f j u s t p i e c i n g t h a t to g e t h e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C o n s o li d a ti n g a ll th e i n d e x e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h a t is m u c h b e t t e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n if I - i f y o u r e fe r m e t o a n y th i n g o r i f I w a n t t o lo o k a t a n y d o c u m e n t I g o t o th e c o n tr o l li n g i n d e x a n d i t te ll s m e w h e r e e x a c tl y t o fi n d t h e r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n ts . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a i r m a n w o u l d y o u g i v e u s a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o a tt e n d t o th a t i n t h e n e x t b r e a k o r t w o ? C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . J a i f t h a t c a n b e d e a l t w i th in t h e c o u r s e o f t h e m o r n in g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : It s h o u l d b e a v a il a b l e i n d u e c o u r s e . Page 5 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fo r t h e f il e t h a t w e n e e d t o d a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . O k a y s o y o u c a n c o n t i n u e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 Ye s . M r C h a i r m a n th e j u d g m e n ts a n d t h e r e l e v a n c e o f t h e ju d g m e n t w i ll c o m e o u t i n … CHAIRPERSON: Oh I am sorry you know what? Oh well you might h a v e t o – I s e e t h e n e x t e x h ib i t i n d e x S S 2 th a t it is a s fr o m p a g e 1 a s w e ll s o it m i g h t n o t b e a s e a s y a s w e t h o u g h t it w o u l d b e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B e c a u s e i t l o o k s lik e f o r e a c h i t e m t h e i n d e x s t a r ts fr o m 1 a g a i n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: But it should not be – should not take long. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t s h o u ld n o t . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d Mr C h a i r p e r s o n I s h o u l d a ls o s a y t h a t w h e n y o u lo o k a t t h e i n d e x t o S S 2 y o u w il l s e e a r e f e r e n c e to P M 5 , 6 , 9 a n d 1 5 . W h a t w e d e c i d e d is t o r e m o v e t h e m f r o m Mr M o le f e ’s a ffi d a v it a n d p u t t h e m i n a g e n e r a l b u n d l e s o t h a t a ll t h e w i t n e s s e s c o u ld r e f e r t o t h e s a m e b u n d l e a n d t h e r e is n o n e e d t h e n t o h a v e M r M o l e fe ’s a ffi d a v i t Page 6 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 p r e s e n t a ll t h e ti m e . I w il l M r C h a ir p e r s o n – p e r h a p s I s h o u l d t a k e th is o p p o r t u n i ty t o s a y th e i m p o r t a n c e o f e s p e c ia ll y t h e f ir s t t w o j u d g m e n ts is th a t s c a t h i n g r e m a r k s a r e m a d e a b o u t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a t P R A S A a n d th e f a c t t h a t … CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y M r S o n i I th in k y o u h a d b e g u n t o t e l l u s w h a t t h e e v i d e n c e s t a r ti n g t o d a y in t o n e x t w e e k w il l c o v e r w h e n I in t e r v e n e d . I t h in k in i ti a l ly I t h i n k a f t e r t h a t y o u – y o u c o n ti n u e d o n t h e b a s is t h a t m a y b e y o u h a d s a id w h a t y o u w a n t e d t o s a y b u t I m is s e d i t b e c a u s e s o m e th in g e ls e w a s i n m y m i n d . 10 Yo u m i g h t w is h t o j u s t c a p tu r e a g a in w h a t th e e v i d e n c e w il l c o v e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: D u r in g th is p e r i o d s t a r ti n g t o d a y u p to – is it Thursday next week? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir m a n t h e – t h e e v i d e n c e r e l a t i n g to th e c a p tu r e o f P R A S A o r s ta t e c a p tu r e o f P R A S A h o w e v e r o n e w a n t s to d e s c r ib e t h e s i tu a ti o n t h a t e x is t s th e r e w il l b e l e d i n t w o s t a g e s . W h a t t h a t e v i d e n c e w il l s h o w i n e s s e n c e M r C h a i r ma n i s t h e f o ll o w i n g : 20 Fi r s t t w o i n d i v i d u a ls w h e r e t h e p r in c i p l e b e n e fic i a r i e s t h r o u g h e n ti t ie s in w h i c h t h e y h a d a n i n t e r e s t o f l u c r a tiv e c o n tr a c ts t h a t P R A S A c o n c l u d e d w i t h d i ff e r e n t c o n tr a c ts . O n e o f th o s e p e r s o n s w h o b e n e f i te d M r C h a ir m a n is d ir e c tl y o r i n d ir e c tl y f r o m t h e s e c o n tr a c ts is M r C h o c k a li n g a m p o p u l a r ly k n o w n a s R o y M o o d le y. Between July 2000 a n d I a m j u s t s k e tc h in g a ll th e e v i d e n c e t h a t w i ll b e l e d M r C h a ir m a n . Page 7 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 B e t w e e n J u ly 2 0 0 7 a n d J u n e 2 0 0 9 a n e n t i ty d ir e c tl y li n k e d to M r M o o d l e y R o y a l S e c u r i ty P r o p r ie t y L i m i te d p a id s o m e R 6 4 0 0 0 .0 0 a m o n th t o M r J a c o b Z u m a u n t il ju s t a b o u t t h e t i m e M r Zu m a b e c a m e P r e s i d e n t o f t h e c o u n t r y i n M a y 2 0 0 9 . T h e t o t a l a m o u n t th a t w a s p a i d b y R a il R o y a l S e c u r i ty i n v e s t e d in M r Z u m a in m o n t h ly in s t a l m e n t s is m o r e t h a n R 1 .5 m i l li o n . T h e e x a c t a m o u n t b e i n g R 1 5 6 0 4 8 6 .3 2 . Th e n fr o m 2 0 1 0 R o y a l S e c u r it y b e g a n r e c e iv i n g c o n tr a c t s f r o m P R A S A a n d h a d s o f a r b e e n p a i d m o r e t h a n R 4 7 1 m il li o n b y P R A S A . N o w th e i m p o r t a n c e o f s t r e s s i n g 2 0 1 0 Mr C h a ir m a n is r e l a t e d to t h e p r e v i o u s 10 p o i n t I m a d e a n d t h a t is th a t … CHAIRPERSON: Just one second. There seems to be some in t e r fe r e n c e w i th th e d o o r b e h i n d m e . Ask somebody we need to ( in d is ti n c t) a n d m a k e s u r e th e r e is n o i n te r f e r e n c e . Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th e p o in t I w a s m a k in g Mr C h a ir m a n is y o u h a v e t h e p a y m e n ts s t a r ti n g in 2 0 0 7 e n d in g i n 2 0 0 9 . 2 0 1 0 t h e R o y a l S e c u r i ty s t a r ts r e c e iv i n g c o n tr a c ts a n d u p t o n o w R 4 7 1 m il li o n h a s b e e n p a i d t o t h e R o y a l S e c u r it y. T h e n M r C h a i r m a n Mr M o o d l e y a n d M r Z u m a r e p o r t e d ly h a v e b e e n t o a n u m b e r o f s o c ia l f u n c ti o n s t o g e t h e r. h a s b e e n i n t h e m e d i a ( i n d is t in c t) . 20 T h is He was on TV July – the Durban J u l y w h e r e M r M o o d l e a p p e a r s t o h a v e h o s t e d M r Zu m a . A n d t h e r e a r e a n e c d o ta l in c i d e n t s t o r e p o r t s o n e th e m w h e r e Mr Z u m a a l l e g e d l y w o n R 1 5 0 0 0 . 0 0 a t a D u r b a n J u l y w h e r e h e w a s h o s t e d b y Mr M o o d l e y. T h e n Mr C h a ir p e r s o n p e r h a p s t h e o n e t h a t is o f s ig n i f ic a n c e o r t h e c o m m i s s io n is a n e n t i ty c a ll e d S i y a n g e n a Te c h n o l o g i e s Pr o p r i e ty L i m i t e d w h i c h h a s r e c e iv e d p a y m e n ts fr o m P R A S A e x c e e d i n g R 4 b i ll i o n Page 8 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 M r C h a ir m a n . I t r e p o r te d ly p a i d m o r e t h a n R 5 0 0 mi ll i o n to e n t i ti e s i n w h ic h Mr M o o d l e y h a s a n i n t e r e s t . CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t – is t h a t n o w s e p a r a t e fr o m t h e R 4 0 0 a n d s o m e t h i n g m i ll i o n t h a t M r M o o d le y ’s e n ti ti e s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O b t a in e d b y w a y o f t e n d e r s fr o m P R A S A ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e R 4 7 1 M r C h a ir p e r s o n is p u r e ly R o y a l S e c u r i ty. Th is is th e c o m p a n y w h i c h p a i d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . s o t h is is t o a s e p a r a te c o m p a n y w h e r e ju s t – o r 10 c o m p a n i e s o n e o f t h e m b e in g H e a d w a y Tr a d i n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t th o s e d e t a i ls w i ll b e in t h e n e x t s e s s io n w h e r e w e w ill p r e s e n t i t a ll ( in d i s ti n c t) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r L u c k y M o n t a n a w h o m y o u w il l h e a r q u it e a b i t M r C h a ir m a n w a s P R A S A’s C E O a t a ll r e l e v a n t t i m e s r e l e v a n t t o th e s e – t h e c o n c l u s io n o f – a n d i m p le m e n t a ti o n o f th e c o n tr a c ts a n d I s t r e s s t h a t Mr C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e t h e e v i d e n c e w il l s h o w i t is n o t o n l y t h e c o n c l u s i o n b u t t h e r e a f t e r t h e – th e i n d u l g e n c e s g r a n t e d – e x te n s io n s 20 g r a n t e d i n r e s p e c t o f t h o s e c o n tr a c ts . A n d h e p l a y e d a c e n tr a l r o l e i n t h e – t h e a w a r d o f – o f t h a t c o n tr a c t t h r o u g h S i y a n g e n a . Th e v a li d i ty o f t h e c o n tr a c t s t h a t I h a v e b e e n r e fe r r i n g t o M r C h a ir m a n in r e g a r d t o S iy a n g e n a h a s b e e n c h a l le n g e d i n th e c o u r ts . N o t – I m u s t s tr e s s n o t t h e R o y a l S e c u r i t y c o n tr a c t b u t t h e Si y a n g e n a c o n tr a c t a n d th e r e is a c o n tr a c t t h a t w a s e n t e r e d in t o b y p r o d i g y w i t h P R A S A a n d o n – in Page 9 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 r e s p e c t o f M r M o o d l e y ’s r o le i n r e g a r d t o t h a t c o n tr a c t o f w h ic h t w o w i t n e s s e s w il l te s t i fy o f w h o tr i e d t o f o r c e P R A S A o r e m p lo y e e s o f P R A S A t o a g r e e to p a y t h e a m o u n t o w i n g to P r o d i g y a n d m a d e c e r t a i n r e m a r k s a b o u t th e p o w e r h e h e l d . T h a t w i ll b e t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t – t h a t t h e w it n e s s e s w il l g iv e . T h e n th e o th e r i n d iv i d u a l M r C h a i r m a n w h o h a s b e n e fi t e d d ir e c tl y o r in d ir e c tly fr o m P R A S A c o n t r a c ts is M r M a k h e n z a M a b u n d a t h e p e r s o n w h o w o r k e d w i th Mr M o n t a n a w h e n h e w a s p r e v i o u s ly a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b li c E n t e r p r is e s . M r M a b u n d a ’s S iy a y a o r S e n t i ti e s h a v e b e e n p a i d m o r e t h a n R 1 b i ll io n b y P R A S A f o r 10 p r o v i d in g – p u r p o r t e d ly f o r p r o v i d i n g c e r t a in c o n s u l t a n c y s e r v i c e s . H e a ls o – t h is is M r M a b u n d a M r C h a ir p e r s o n r e c e i v e d a n a m o u n t o f m o r e t h a n R 8 0 m i ll io n i n r e s p e c t o f a lo c o m o t iv e c o n tr a c t t h a t P R A S A c o n c l u d e d w i th a t h ir d p a r t y a n d a p p a r e n tl y th e p a y m e n t w a s a n d w e a r e g o i n g t o g e t th e e v i d e n c e fr o m t h e m a s t e r w a s f o r f a c il i ta t in g th a t c o n tr a c t. S o t h a t M r C h a ir m a n is in s u b s t a n c e w h a t th e – t h e n a t u r e o f t h e e v i d e n c e w e l e a d to s h o w t h a t P R A S A w a s in fa c t c a p tu r e d a n d w h o the capturers were and who the enforcers of the contract – of the – the c a p tu r e w e r e . N o w a t t h e t i m e t h e c o n tr a c ts f r o m w h i c h Mr M o o d l e y a n d Mr M a b u n d a b e n e fi t e d w e r e a w a r d e d w h ils t Mr M o n t a n a w a s th e 20 C E O a n o t h e r i m p o r t a n t fi g u r e i n t h is m ix i s M r S fi s o B u t h e l e z i w h o w a s t h e C h a ir o f th e B o a r d . A n d th e i m p o r ta n c e o f t h a t p o s i ti o n M r C h a ir m a n w il l c o m e i n w h e n M r M o l e fe g i v e s h i s e v i d e n c e . H e is t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e P R A S A’s b o a r d b e tw e e n A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 to J u l y 2 0 1 7 . A n d th a t is a n i m p o r t a n t p a r t o f h o w – w h y h e w i ll d e s c r i b e M r C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t h e f o u n d i n r e g a r d t o th e s e m a t t e r s a n d w h a t h e d i d Page 10 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 a n d w a s p r e v e n te d f r o m d o i n g . T h e n M r C h a i r p e r s o n i n J u ly 2 0 1 7 i n r e g a r d t o t h e R 3 . 5 b i ll io n c o n tr a c t t h a t I h a v e r e fe r r e d t o t h a t is t h e lo c o m o t iv e c o n tr a c t J u s tic e Fr a n c i s i n t h e G a u t e n g L o c a l D i v i s i o n s e t a s i d e t h a t c o n tr a c t o n t h e b a s is t h a t i t h a d – th e r e w e r e – i t w a s ta in t e d b y c o r r u p t i o n a n d fr o n t i n g a n d in a s c a th i n g ju d g m e n t w h i c h w e w il l b e r e fe r r i n g t o h e – h e m a d e s o m e v e r y a d v e r s e c o m m e n t s a b o u t M r M o n ta n a a n d t h e p e r s o n c a ll e d M r D a n i e l M t h i m k h u lu w h o m y o u w il l h e a r a b o u t a s w e l l. T h a t d e c i s i o n w a s t a k e n o n a p p e a l t o t h e S C A . T h J u s t ic e L e w is in t h e j u d g m e n t o f th e S C A w a s e q u a ll y s c a th in g a b o u t 10 t h e r o le M r M o n t a n a a n d M r M t h i m k h u l u h o w e s p e c ia ll y Mr M t h i m k h u lu e n g in e e r e d th e p r o c e s s e s d e s p i te th e f a c t t h a t h e n o e n g i n e e r i n g q u a li fi c a t io n s a n d th a t b e c o m e s i m p o r t a n t Mr C h a ir m a n . How he e n g in e e r e d t h e p r o c e s s e s t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e w a s o n l y o n e o u tc o m e i n regard to that claim. T h e S iy a n g e n a c o n tr a c ts Mr C h a ir p e r s o n a s I h a v e s a i d a r e v a lu e d a t a b o u t R 4 b il li o n . Th e y a r e a ls o th e s u b je c t o f r e v ie w – a r e v ie w b e f o r e t h e G a u t e n g … C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e r e is S iy a y a a n d S iy a n g e n a ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ? 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . S iy a y a is M r M a b u n d a . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S y a n g e n a li n k e d t o M r M o o d l e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e n t h is ( i n d is t in c t ) is a t h ir d p a r ty t h a t M r M a b u n d a is a b e n e fic i a r y o f th a t a n d w e n e e d n o t d e a l t o o m u c h w i t h Page 11 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 t h a t e x c e p t w h a t t h e c o u r ts h a v e s a id a b o u t h o w P R A S A m a n i p u l a te d p r o c e s s e s in r e g a r d t o t h a t c o n tr a c t a n d w h e n o n e r e a d s t h e r e v i e w – t h e r e v i e w p a p e r s i n t h e S i y a n g e n a M a t t e r M r C h a ir p e r s o n t h e – t h e – o n e s e e s a s i m i l a r p a tt e r n b u t w e w il l c o m e to th o s e d e t a i ls . A n d t h e r e g a r d to t h e S iy a y a M a tt e r s M r C h a ir m a n a n d t h e y t a k e o n a s li g h t ly d i ff e r e n t s i g n i fi c a n c e . Th e y a r e t h e s u b je c t n o tw i th s t a n d i n g t h a t a b o u t R 1 b il li o n h a s b e e n p a i d t h e y a r e t h e s u b j e c t o f a r b i tr a ti o n p r o c e e d i n g s a n d t h o s e a m o u n t t o th e a m o u n t s c la i m e d a r e i n t h e r e g io n o f a b o u t R 6 – j u s t a l i tt l e m o r e th a n R 6 0 m il li o n a n d y o u w il l s e e h o w th e f o r m e r 10 c h a ir p e r s o n o f P R A S A’s b o a r d a t t e m p t e d t o s e c u r e p a y m e n t fo r S iy a y a a n d i n t h e c o u r s e h a d t o i n te r v e n e i n t h a t . S o th a t M r C h a i r p e r s o n is t h e – t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w i ll b e le d p u ts – b a s e d o n d o c u m e n ts in o u r p o s s e s s i o n i n e ff e c t c a n n o t b e d i s p u t e d . N o w a t t h e o u ts e t M r C h a ir m a n I p o i n te d o u t th a t y o u w il l b e l e a d i n g e v id e n c e i n t w o s t a g e s . I n th e – i n t h e s ta g e w h ic h w e a r e b u s y n o w f o r t h e n e x t e ig h t d a y s t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t w e w il l b e l e a d i n g w i ll b e t h e fo ll o w i n g : T h e e v id e n c e w ill f o c u s o n t h e i n t e r a c t io n s b e t w e e n tw o i n d iv id u a l s a t P R A S A i n p a r ti c u la r t h e r o l e M r M o n t a n a i n fa c i li t a t i n g P R A S A’s c a p t u r e e s p e c i a l ly b y M r M o o d l e y a n d M r M a b u n d a a n d b y c e r t a in p e r s o n s – 20 and c e r ta i n o th e r persons who used e n ti t ie s for gain l u c r a tiv e c o n tr a c ts . A n d M r C h a ir m a n j u s t s o t h a t it i s n o t s a id th a t w e l l e i th e r y o u b l a m e M r M o n t a n a y o u a s t h e C E O t h e e v i d e n c e w il l s h o w h i s h a n d in e a c h o f th e s e . S o m e o f i t is i n h a n d w r it in g i n fa c t th e f ir s t w i t n e s s w i ll s h o w i n r e s p e c t Pr o d i g y c o n t r a c t M r M o n ta n a ’s c l e a r h a n d i n t h e m a t t e r. A n d t h a t e v i d e n c e w il l b e l e d – t h a t i s t h e e v i d e n c e w h ic h w i ll Page 12 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 b e l e d o v e r t h e n e x t e ig h t d a y s . M a y I n o w M r C h a i r m a n j u s t s o t h a t y o u h a v e a n id e a o f w h a t y o u c a n e x p e c t o v e r th e n e x t e i g h t d a y s is s u m m a r i s e v e r y b r ie f ly t h e w i tn e s s e s a n d w h a t t h e ir e v i d e n c e is ? Mr C h a ir m a n a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t I a m n o t r e q u ir e d t o i d e n ti fy th e w i tn e s s e s a t t h i s s ta g e b u t i f y o u w a n t m e t o I w ill . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l y o u c a n – it d e p e n d s y o u k n o w i f t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n i s s u e s o f s a fe ty a n d s e c u r i ty th a t m a k e i t n o t a p p r o p r i a te t o m e n ti o n th e ir n a m e s u n t il t h e y a r r iv e h e r e a n d s o – s o y o u w o u l d k n o w b e s t. 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s t h e r e a r e n o s a f e ty is s u e s M r C h a ir m a n s o I w i ll n a m e t h e m . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th e f ir s t w i t n e s s is g o i n g t o b e Mr Ti r o H o l e l e a n d t h e n e x t w i t n e s s i s Mr J a c o b R a k g o a t h e . T h e t h r u s t o f th e i r e v id e n c e d e a ls w i t h a m e e ti n g t h e y h a d h a d w i t h M r M o o d le y i n 2 0 0 0 – i n a b o u t F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 7 w h e r e Mr M o o d le y w a n t e d p a y m e n t t o b e m a d e fo r a n e n t i ty i n w h ic h h e h a d a n in t e r e s t a n d i n r e s p e c t o f t h a t h e fe d t h r o u g h the two employees. m a t t e r. 20 I d o n o t k n o w w h y h e w o u l d ( i n d is ti n c t) in t h i s I w a n t t o s a y t o y o u th a t th e r e – I a m o n e o f th e 1 5 t o p d e c is i o n m a k e r s i n t h is c o u n tr y, t h o s e w e r e h is w o r d s a n d t h e r e a r e g o i n g t o b e m a jo r c h a n g e s c o m i n g a n d y o u b e t t e r b e o n t h e r ig h t s i d e o f th e f e n c e . N o w f o r tu n a te ly M r C h a ir p e r s o n n o t h i n g c a m e o f t h a t . A n d w h e n I s a y f o r t u n a te ly fr o m P R A S A’s p o i n t o f v i e w m o n e y w a s n o w p a i d t h a t e v id e n c e is r e l e v a n t f o r a n u m b e r o f i s s u e s a n d t h e fir s t o n e is Mr M o le f e w il l te s t i fy h e w i ll b e t h e th ir d w i tn e s s t h a t w h e n h e Page 13 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 b e c a m e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d in J u ly 2 0 1 4 h e h e a r d o f M r M o o d l e y a n d s a w Mr M o o d le y t h e r e a n d h e s a y s “ w h e n y o u w a l k e d a r o u n d p e o p l e w o u l d s a y, t h a t i s t h e o w n e r o f P R A S A ” p o i n t i n g t o M r M o o d l e y. A n d h e w o u l d b e i n a n d o u t o f t h e o ffic e s o f d i ffe r e n t m a n a g e r s w a lk in g a r o u n d w i t h t h e m . I n f a c t M r M o le f e k e e p s s a y i n g t h is o n e v e r y o c c a s i o n a n d I h a v e c o n s u l t e d w i th h i m . Yo u w o u ld t h in k h e w a s o n e o f t h e t o p m a n a g e r s a t P R A S A . S o I a m j u s t tr y i n g t o s h o w t h e i n fl u e n c e t h a t M r M o o d le y h a s . So that is the purpose of leading these two witness on that very narrow point. 10 The next witness and p e r h a p s t h e p r i n c i p l e w i t n e s s i n r e g a r d to S ta t e C a p t u r e is Mr M o l e f e . A n d M r M o le f e ’s r o l e M r C h a ir m a n w h e n o n e lo o k s a t i t e ff e c tiv e ly is q u i te i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e i t c o m e s in a f te r … C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k y o u r v o i c e is g o in g d o w n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m s o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t c o m e s in a f te r t h i s p e r i o d w h e n M r M o n t a n a a n d M r S f is o B u t h e l e z i w e r e i n e ff e c t i n c o n tr o l o f P R A S A a n d e s p e c i a lly i n the procurement processes. A n d h e w i ll d e a l w it h t h a t a n d t h e c o n c e r n s h e h a d a n d w h a t h e d i d t o r e v e r s e s o m e o f t h e d e c is io n s t h a t 20 w e r e ta k e n . B u t w h a t h i s r o l e is , is th a t f r o m 2 0 1 4 – w e th i n k 2 0 1 7 h e a n d h i s b o a r d tr i e d t o s t e e r t h e P R A S A s h i p in a d i ff e r e n t d ir e c ti o n . M o r e i m p o r t a n t ly M r C h a ir m a n h e t e l ls y o u h o w – o r h e w i ll t e ll y o u h o w S t a te C a p tu r e a t P R A S A a n d w e d o n o t n e e d t o g o i n ( in d i s ti n c t) appeared to operate. H e w il l t e l l y o u h o w Mr M o o d le y o n s e v e r a l o c c a s i o n s tr i e d t o c a p t u r e h i m a s h e p u ts i t . H e w il l a l s o te ll y o u th a t Page 14 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 h e t h e n h a d a f a ll o u t w it h M r M o n t a n a b e c a u s e M r M o n ta n a w o u l d n o t r e c t if y th e m a n n e r in w h i c h h e o p e r a t e d a n d w h i c h th e c o u r t – t h e c o u r ts w e r e la t e r c r i tic a l o f a n d th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a s Mr M o le f e w o u l d s a y. N o w w h e n o n e g o e s p a s t t h a t t h e n e x t – th e n e x t t h i n g h a p p e n e d . M r M o n t a n a h a n d s i n h is r e s i g n a t io n a g a i n s t t h i s b a c k d r o p th a t I h a v e d e s c r ib e d t h e b o a r d a c c e p ts th e r e s i g n a ti o n a n d t h e n – t h e n P r e s i d e n t Z u m a c a l ls a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n t h e t h e n M i n is t e r, M i n is t e r D i p u o P e t e r s , M r M o l e fe , Mr M o n t a n a a n d t h e M i n is te r i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y a t w h ic h h e ( in d is ti n c t) to g e t Mr M o l e f e t o p e r s u a d e h i s b o a r d to r e i n s t a te M r 10 M o n ta n a . Mr M o l e fe w il l s a y h e w a s s u r p r is e d t h a t t h e H e a d o f S t a t e w o u ld w a n t t o i n t e r f e r e in t h is b u t w h e n h e l o o k s a t i t a s a w h o l e h e u n d e r s t a n d s w h a t t h e b i g p ic t u r e w a s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Th is is a s i t u a t io n w h e r e – t h a t a t te m p t w a s m a d e i n r e g a r d t o M r M o n ta n a w h o h a d r e s i g n e d . H e h a d n o t b e e n d is m i s s e d ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o . C H A I R P E R S O N : H e h a d r e s ig n e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e b o a r d h a d a c c e p t e d h i s r e s i g n a ti o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t is s o . S o y o u q u i t e r i g h t a n d i t w a s i m p o r t a n t t o e m p h a s i s e t h a t . I t i s n o t a s i f t h e b o a r d w a s t a k i n g d r a s t ic a c ti o n . This was a mutual separation. C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u m i g h t – y o u p r o b a b ly a r e n o t b e i n g a c c u r a t e w h e n y o u s a y i t w a s a m u t u a l s e p a r a ti o n . A s I u n d e r s t a n d i t i f i t w a s Page 15 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 r e s ig n a ti o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M o n t a n a m a d e t h e d e c is io n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : U n il a te r a lly. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t h e w a s l e a v in g P R A S A . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s s u r e . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: 10 T h e b o a r d j u s t a c c e p t e d h is d e c is io n . I t is u n l ik e a s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e r e is a p r o b l e m a n d t h e p a r t ie s r e a c h a n a g r e e m e n t le t u s p a r t w a y s . H e m a d e h i s o w n d e c is io n t o l e a v e P R A S A . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e b o a r d a c c e p te d t h a t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A b s o lu t e l y y e s Mr C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h a t d e c is i o n to o i s i m p o r t a n t . Mr M o le f e w il l a ls o s a y Mr C h a i r m a n t h a t o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t c o n c e r n e d h i m a n d h e w i ll r e f le c t o n i t w h e n h e is g iv in g e v id e n c e a n d I a m s u r e t h e r e w o u l d b e e x c h a n g e d b e t w e e n y o u a n d M r M o l e fe h o p e f u l ly I w i ll tr y a n d 20 r e s o l v e m o s t o f t h e m f ir s t . T h a t g i v e n t h e b a d p u b l ic it y s u r r o u n d i n g P R A S A f o r a n u m b e r o f y e a r s e v e n b e f o r e t h e ti m e M r M o n t a n a d e c i d e d t o r e s i g n a n d I s a y t h a t Mr C h a ir p e r s o n b e c a u s e th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r t o o h a s i n v e s ti g a te d P R A S A f r o m a c o m p l a i n t – a s e t o f c o m p l a i n ts s t a r ti n g in 2 0 0 0 – w h ic h s h e r e c e iv e d in 2 0 1 2 a n d s h e f in a l is e d h e r report in 2015. A n d i t i s s c a t h in g a n d w e w il l r e fl e c t o n th a t r e p o r t . Page 16 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 B u t w h a t Mr M o n t a n a – w h a t Mr M o le f e w i ll s a y is th is . G i v e n th e f a c t t h a t o u r c o n s ti t u ti o n s d e m a n d s a c c o u n t a b i li ty fr o m e v e r y o n e . He is s u r p r is e d t h a t M r M o n ta n a w a s a l l o w e d to r e m a in a t t h e h e l m o f P R A S A o v e r s u c h a p r o lo n g e d p e r io d a n d – a n d a t th e e n d o f t h e d a y o n e n e e d s t o l o o k f o r a b e t t e r r e a s o n t h a n h is j u s t i n t o le r a n t . H e w il l a ls o s a y M r C h a ir p e r s o n th a t w h e n h e g o t – w h e n h e a n d h is b o a r d s t a r te d p u t t in g th in g s r i g h t fo r e x a m p le in r e g a r d t o th e S w i f a m b o c o n tr a c t w h ic h M r M o n t a n a – M r M o le f e t o o k t o c o u r t a n d h a d r e v ie w e d a n d s e t a s i d e a n d h e a l s o t o o k t h e S i y a n g e n a m a t te r to c o u r t b u t i t e v e n tu a lly 10 h a d t o c o m e b a c k to c o u r t b e c a u s e o f c e r t a i n m a t t e r s w h ic h w e n e e d n o t e n t e r t a i n t h is . B u t w h e n t h e y d i d i n v e s ti g a ti o n s a s d e s c r i b e d b y t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r a n d f o r e x a m p le la id c h a r g e s t h e H AW K S d i d n o th in g . H e h a d t o t a k e t h e H AW K S a n d th a t m a t t e r is a 2 0 1 7 ( i n d is ti n c t) . T h e a p p e a ls to P a r l i a m e n t . P a r li a m e n t t o o d i d n o t h in g . I n f a c t t h e y w e r e h o s til e t o Mr M o l e f e a n d h is b o a r d w h e n e v e r t h e y a p p e a r e d t h e r e . O f c o u r s e I n e e d t o a d d th is j u s t t o g iv e s o m e b a l a n c e . T h e y s t u c k o n o n e f a c t t h a t th e f o r e n s i c in v e s t i g a t io n s th a t M r M o l e f e ’s b o a r d h a d in – th e f o r e n s ic i n v e s ti g a to r s h a d – t h a t M r M o l e fe ’s b o a r d h a d e n g a g e d h a v i n g b e e n to l d to d o s o b y t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r t h a t t h a t h a d t u r n e d o u t t o b e 20 c o s t ly a n d I w il l p u t t h e fi g u r e o n t h e t a b l e th e f ig u r e t h a t is a v a il a b l e a t t h e m o m e n t is a b o u t R 3 0 0 mi ll i o n . A n d t h a t h a s b e e n i n th e p u b l ic ’s s p a c e a s w e ll . B u t w e w i ll d e a l w i th t h e s e p a r a ti o n o f t h e r e le v a n t is s u e s a s t o w h e t h e r i t w a s n e c e s s a r y t o – t o i n v e s t ig a t e a n d if s o th e n p u t a li m i t o n t h e a m o u n t o f i n v e s t ig a t io n s . B u t n o t t o s to p t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d g iv e s u s t h e v i e w t h a t t h e r e w a s n o t t h e b o n a f id e Page 17 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 r e a s o n t o a c t w i th h is b o a r d i n th e ( in d is ti n c t) . A n d f in a lly c o n c l u d e M r C h a ir p e r s o n ’s M o l e f e t h a t s in c e Mr M o n ta n a l e f t a s th e C E O t h a t i s in J u l y 2 0 1 5 w e a r e n o w n e a r ly – w e a r e i n M a r c h 2 0 2 0 n e a r ly fi v e y e a r s la t e r P R A S A h a s n o t y e t h a d a f u l ly a p p o in t e d C E O i t o n ly h a d a c t in g C E O ’s a n d t h a t t o o – a n o t h e r w i t n e s s w il l t e l l y o u M r C h a ir p e r s o n h a s b e e n e li m i n a t e d a n d r e p la c e d b y a n a d m i n is tr a t o r. S e c o n d l y Mr M o le f e w i ll a l s o s a y t h a t fr o m t h e t i m e h is b o a r d w a s e ff e c ti v e ly d is s o lv e d b e c a u s e t h e ir ( in d i s ti n c t) w a s n o t e x te n d e d P R A S A h a s n o t h a d a p e r m a n e n t b o a r d o n ly h a d i n t e r n a l b o a r d t h e n u n t il D e c e m b e r a n d th a t 10 b o a r d to o – t h a t b o a r d w a s in f a c t fo r m e r l y d is s o lv e d b y t h e Pr e s id e n c y. A n d h e fi n d s t h is d i s tu r b in g i n v i e w o f t h e n u m b e r o f m a t t e r s i n c lu d in g t h e m a t t e r t h a t c a m e u p a f e w w e e k s a g o w h e r e t h e S iy a n g e n a m a t t e r w a s b e f o r e t h e H ig h C o u r t a n d P R A S A w a s n o t r e p r e s e n te d u n t il t h e v e r y l a s t m i n u t e a n d w o u ld h a v e i n c u r r e d a – e x p e n s e s o f a b o u t R 6 b i ll io n h a d t h e m a t t e r g o n e u n d e fe n d e d a s it w e r e a n d i t w a s o n ly a t t h e la s t m in u t e th a t t h e m a t t e r w a s in fa c t w a s p o s tp o n e d a n d – b u t o f c o u r s e P R A S A h a s p a i d t h e c o s t s e ff e c t iv e ly – m e a n s y o u a r e i n e v e r y b o d y ’s ( i n d is ti n c t) M r C h a ir m a n . T h e n Mr C h a ir p e r s o n w e h a v e t w o i m p o r t a n t w i t n e s s e s th a t t h e ir e v i d e n c e is g o i n g to b e c o n d e n s e d 20 q u i te c o n s id e r a b l y. C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d Mr S o n i . C a n I j u s t c h e c k th a t e v e r y b o d y is a b l e t o h e a r m e a n d t o h e a r M r S o n i w e ll . I s e e s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e s h a k e t h e ir h e a d s , o t h e r s a g r e e a n d t h o s e w h o a r e fa r c a n n o t h e a r. D o e s th a t i n c l u d e m e o r o n ly M r S o n i ? C a n – e v e n m e ? Yo u c a n h e a r me? Okay but you cannot hear Mr Soni? Page 18 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : I w i ll s p e a k a lo t l o u d e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Tr y a n d s p e a k l o u d s o t h a t t h e y c a n – e v e r y b o d y c a n h e a r. O k a y t h a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e h a v e Mr C h a ir p e r s o n th e h e a d o f P R A S A’s le g a l s e c ti o n a n d g e n e r a l m a n a g e r i n t h a t s e c ti o n w h o h a d c o m p l a i n e d t h a t t h e y – w h e n th e y tr i e d t o in t e r v e n e i n c o n tr a c ts i n w h i c h M r M o l e f e a p p e a r e d t o – o h M r M o n t a n a a p p e a r e d to h a v e a n in t e r e s t . For e x a m p l e i n t h e Pr o d i g y c o n tr a c t s t e p s w e r e t a k e n a g a in s t th e m in fa c t b o t h o f th e m w e r e d is m is s e d . T h e y w il l g i v e d e t a ils o f t h a t . W e d o n o t 10 n e e d e x t e n s i v e d e t a i l b u t i t g o e s o n to s h o w M r C h a ir p e r s o n th a t t h a t is t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h M r M o n t a n a r a n P R A S A . They came back only t h r o u g h t h e i n t e r v e n t io n o f Mr M o le f e . T h e y c a m e b a c k b u t t h e c u l tu r e t h a t M r M o n ta n a s t a r t e d a t P R A S A h a s n o w r e t u r n e d a f te r t h e s h o r t in t e r m is s i o n a s i t w e r e d u r i n g w h ic h M r M o le f e a n d h is b o a r d tr i e d t o p u t P R A S A o n a b e t t e r w ic k e t . T h e y w i ll a ls o s a y M r C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t w h e n e v e r n o t w h e n e v e r w h e n d e c is i o n s a r e t a k e n a b o u t l e g a l m a t t e r s they are excluded. T h e y b e l i e v e d e l ib e r a te ly s o t h a t n o d i s s e n t in g v o i c e c a n b e h e a r d a b o u t t h o s e d e c is i o n s . N o w t h e r e is o n e a s p e c t o f t h e ir e v i d e n c e w h ic h i s q u it e d i s tu r b in g M r C h a i r p e r s o n a n d i t is t h is . 20 T h a t I h a v e to l d y o u t h a t th e S w i f a m b o C o n tr a c t h a s b e e n s e t a s id e . T h e S iy a y a m a t t e r s a n d t h e S iy a n g e n a m a t t e r s a r e th e s u b je c t o f li ti g a t i o n w h e r e t h e r e v i e w p r o c e e d in g s o r a r b i tr a t i o n p r o c e e d in g . B u t very r e c e n tl y the Department o f Tr a n s p o r t h a d a m e e ti n g w i th r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s o f S iy a y a a n d Si y a n g e n a w h e r e th e y w e r e s a y i n g b u t why are we defending these matters we must save legal costs. Page 19 of 124 But 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 t h e y w il l g i v e t h a t e v i d e n c e . A n d a d i s tu r b i n g th in g M r C h a ir p e r s o n is a n d I s a y th is b e c a u s e t h e r e is t h e h e a r t o f S t a t e C a p tu r e . We know t h a t th e r u l e o f l a w a n d t h e p r i n c i p le o f l e g a li ty a r e c e n tr a l v a l u e s i n o u r c o n s ti t u ti o n . W h e r e th e r e is a le g a l d is p u t e in t e r m s o f S e c ti o n 3 4 o f t h e C o n s t i tu t io n a n y b o d y w h o h a s a n i n t e r e s t i n t h e m a t t e r m u s t t a k e it o r o u g h t t o t a k e i t o ff. A n d t h a t is w h a t P R A S A h a s d o n e i n th e s e matters. W h a t t h e y a r e tr y i n g t o d o is b y p a s s a l l t h is c o n s ti t u ti o n a l m e c h a n is m s a n d ( in d i s ti n c t) . A n d t h e s e a s I s a y M r C h a ir m a n a r e n o t s m a ll s u m s o f m o n e y. 10 T h e a r b i t r a t io n is a R 6 0 m il li o n a n d th e S iy a n g e n a m a t t e r is to t a l ly i f s a m e r e m e d y i s is s u e d a s w a s is s u e d in t h is S w i f a m b o m a t t e r t h e n th e R 4 b il li o n t h a t h a s b e e n p a i d m i g h t w e ll h a v e t o b e r e t u r n e d o r p a r ts o f it . B u t o n e d o e s n o t k n o w w h a t th e p u r p o s e is o f t h e s e m e c h a n is m s b y p a s s t h e l e g a l p r o c e s s . And Mr C h a ir p e r s o n w e s u b m i t th a t t h e ir e v i d e n c e is q u i te c r u c ia l o f t h a t . T h e y a ls o s a y M r C h a ir p e r s o n a n d a n o t h e r d is t u r b i n g m a t t e r a n d M s N g o y e w h o i s t h e h e a d s h e f il e d t w o a ffi d a v i t s . I n a n e a r li e r a ff id a v i t s h e fi le d s h e s a y s t h a t a m o v e h a s b e e n m a d e b y p e o p le o u t s i d e t h e D e p a r t m e n t – o u ts i d e l e g a l a t P R A S A . S h e w il l e n t e r i n t o a c o n t r a c t b e t w e e n P R A S A a n d t h e D B S A f o r R 1 b i lli o n a n d D B S A’s r o l e e ffe c t iv e l y w i ll b e 20 t o r u n P R A S A’s i n fr a s tr u c t u r e p r o b e e ff e c t iv e ly i t w il l t h e n d is tr i b u te t h e s e l u c r a tiv e c o n tr a c ts a n d th e q u e s ti o n r e a l ly t h a t w e w o u l d n e e d to ( in d is ti n c t) h o w i t is . I s i t a m e c h a n i s m t o e n s u r e th a t t h o s e i n P R A S A w h o s c r u ti n is e t h e s e m a t t e r s a r e k e p t o u t t h a t s p a c e – t h a t c r u c i a l s p a c e w h ic h a ffe c ts t h e p u b l ic in t e r e s t ? T h e n M r C h a ir p e r s o n w e h a v e t h e e v i d e n c e o f M s K w e y a m a w h o is t h e l a s t c h a ir p e r s o n o f a b o a r d a t Page 20 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 P R A S A . T h a t b o a r d w a s d is s o lv e d in D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 9 a n d w h a t s h e w il l s a y i s th a t t h e r e a s o n h e r b o a r d w a s d i s s o lv e d i s t h a t t h e M i n i s te r w a n t e d a p a r t ic u l a r i n d i v i d u a l n a m e l y Mr M p o n d o to b e a p p o in t e d t h e C E O a n d t h e b o a r d w a n t e d a p r o p e r p r o c e s s b e fo r e a d e c is io n w a s taken and what e ff e c ti v e ly happened was the M i n is t e r became in p a t i e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t t h e M in is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e M i n is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t M r M b a l u l a . C H A I R P E R S O N : A t t h e m o m e n t. M r M b a l u l a o k a y. 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e – t h e – s o r r y I j u s t lo s t my tr a in o f th o u g h t s o r r y Mr C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s w e ll y o u w e r e t a l k in g a b o u t t h e d i s mi s s a l o r d is b a n d m e n t o r d is s o l u ti o n o f th e b o a r d th a t w a s c h a i r e d b y M s K w e y a m a a n d y o u w e r e s a y i n g t h a t s h e is g o i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To th e e ff e c t t h a t th e r e a s o n w h y s h e – h e r b o a r d w a s d is s o lv e d a n d y o u w e r e g o i n g t o p r o c e e d w it h th a t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t h e b e c a m e i m p a t ie n t a n d a s is t h e w a n t o f p e o p l e w h o e x e r c is e p u b l ic p o w e r s e s p e c ia lly is t h a t i t s h o u l d – w a s 20 w h y s h o u l d I w a i t f o r y o u I a m j u s t th e d i s s o lv in g t h e b o a r d . B u t th e d i le m m a h e t h e n fa c e d Mr C h a ir p e r s o n i s h e d o e s n o t h a v e a C E O b e c a u s e th e b o a r d w o u l d n o t p a r t ic ip a te a n d I j u s t n e e d t o s a y I w o u l d r e fe r y o u to t h e r e l e v a n t p r o v is i o n o f t h e b o a r d c h a r t e r w h ic h s a y s t h a t t h e M i n is te r a p p o i n ts t h e C E O o n t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f t h e b o a r d . B u t i f t h e r e is n o r e c o m m e n d a ti o n n o a p p o i n t m e n t c a n b e m a d e . Page 21 of 124 So 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 w h a t t h e M i n is te r d o e s – w h a t M r M b a l u l a d o e s is th e f o ll o w i n g . d is s o lv e s t h e b o a r d . He H e d o e s n o t a p p o in t Mr M p o n d o a s t h e C E O r a th e r h e a p p o i n ts h i m a s t h e A d m i n is tr a t o r. N o w M r C h a ir p e r s o n w e h a v e i n c l u d e d t h e – t h e r e l e v a n t s t a tu t o r y p r o v i s i o n s r e la t in g t o P R A S A a n d n o p r o v i s i o n i s m a d e fo r a n ( i n d is ti n c t) . But I just put one d i ff ic u l t … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o – s o Ms K w e y a m a w il l s a y t h e M i n is te r w a n te d h i m – w a n t e d th e b o a r d t o a p p o i n t M r M p o n d o a s C E O a n d t h e b o a r d d i d n o t s e e m to b e k e e n to s a y t h e le a s t . 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e M in is t e r w a s t h e r i g h t p e r s o n t o a p p o in t th e C E O b u t i n te r ms o f t h e r e le v a n t s t a tu t e h e c o u l d o n ly a p p o i n t a C E O i f t h e r e w a s a r e c o m m e n d a t io n fr o m th e b o a r d a n d a c c o r d i n g t o M s K w e y a m a t h e M i n is te r – w h e n th e M in is t e r r e a li s e d t h a t t h e b o a r d d id n o t s e e m t o b e k e e n o n a p p o i n ti n g M r M p o n d o h e d i s s o lv e d t h e b o a r d a n d t h e n a p p o i n te d Mr M p o n d o a s A d m i n is tr a t o r o f P R A S A . But you s a y t h a t i n la w t h e r e is n o p r o v i s i o n f o r t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f a n a d m i n is tr a t o r i n r e g a r d t o P R A S A a n d y o u s a y in g t h a t th e f u n c ti o n o f a n a d m i n is tr a t o r w o u l d i n c l u d e t h e f u n c ti o n s o f a C E O m a y b e g o m u c h 20 b e y o n d th a t I d o n o t k n o w b u t i t w o u l d i n c lu d e t h e f u n c t io n s o f a C E O . Is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i f I c o u l d a d d t h e f o ll o w i n g M r C h a ir p e r s o n . In t e r m s o f t h e P F M A e v e r y p u b l ic e n ti ty i f i t h a s a b o a r d t h a t is t h e a c c o u n t in g a u th o r i ty. N o w th e s ta t u to r y p r o v is i o n p r o v id e s f o r t h e M i n is t e r t o a p p o i n t a b o a r d . I f t h e r e i s n o b o a r d t h e r e is a c c o u n t i n g Page 22 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 a u t h o r i ty. S o e ff e c t iv e l y M r M p o n d o w e a r s t w o h a ts . H e i s t h e C E O o n t h e o n e h a n d b e c a u s e h e is i n c h a r g e o f t h e d a y t o d a y o p e r a ti o n s b u t b e c a u s e t h e r e i s n o b o a r d h e i s e ff e c ti v e ly th e a c c o u n t in g a u t h o r i ty. CHAIRPERSON: W e ll – b u t i f y o u a r e c o r r e c t t h a t a s a m a t te r o f l a w t h e r e is n o p o w e r e v e n to t h e M i n is t e r t o a p p o i n t a n a d m i n i s tr a t o r a t P R A S A t h e n – t h e n t h e a d m in is tr a to r h a s n o p o w e r to d o a n y t h i n g . I t h a s n o p o w e r t o m a k e a n y d e c is io n s a t P R A S A a n d a ll th e d e c is i o n s t h a t h e c o u l d p o s s i b ly m a k e a r e n o t la w f u l A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s in d e e d . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is if – i f y o u r – y o u r – o r s u b m is s i o n t h a t t h e r e is n o l a w p r o v i d e d g i v i n g t h e M i n is t e r s u c h p o w e r. That would be the e ffe c t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O f th a t , th a t – a n d t h e r e i s s o m e b o d y w h o p u r p o r t s to e x e r c is e p o w e r t h a t d o e s n o t e x is t in la w ? Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w i f I c o u l d g o b a c k to t h e tw o le g a l a d v i s o r s . T h e y g a v e s u c h a n o p i n io n to t h e a d m i n i s tr a t o r a n d i n r e t a l ia t io n h e s u s p e n d e d o n e o f th e m . CHAIRPERSON: 20 T h a t is – s o t h a t w o u l d b e t h e – t h a t – is t h a t M s Ngoye? A D V VA S S O N I S C : H e s u s p e n d e d M r D in g is w a y o . C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr D i n g i s w a y o . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h o i s o n s u s p e n s i o n a t t h e m o m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . F o r – f o l l o w i n g u p o n t h a t a d v ic e t h a t h e g a v e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : H e d o e s n o t s a y t h a t … Page 23 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 C H A I R P E R S O N : Is i t fo ll o w i n g t h e c o u r s e … A D V VA S S O N I S C : B e c a u s e o f th is b u t w h a t h e s a y s is , y o u a r e u n d e r m i n i n g m y p o s i ti o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : By r a is i n g t h a t p o i n t ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t is r i g h t . CHAIRPERSON: Th a t h e d o e s n o t h a v e a n y l e g a l p o w e r t o – to e x e r c is e – t h e r e is n o l e g a l a u th o r i ty t o e x e r c is e a n y p o w e r a s a n a d m i n is tr a t o r. O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 B u t i f – if t h i s h a d h a p p e n e d p r i o r t o t h e p r o m u l g a t i o n o f t h is c o m m i s s io n ’s e v i d e n c e t h e n o n e c o u ld u n d e r s t a n d b u t w h e n i t h a p p e n s w h i le t h is p r o v i s i o n – t h is c o m m is s i o n is s i tt i n g it is a v e r y w o r r y i n g c o m m e n t a r y t h e r e s p e c t th a t o u r a u t h o r i t ie s h a v e fo r t h e r u l e o f l a w a n d f o r c o n s t i tu t io n a l p r in c i p l e s M r C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : E b e r s o h n f in a lly – o u r fi n a l w it n e s s is g o i n g t o b e M r Za c k i e A c h m a t . N o w h e i s a v o ic e fr o m C i v il S o c i e ty. H e c o m m e n t s q u i te i n s ti n c t iv e ly i n h is a ffi d a v i t b u t t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f h is e v i d e n c e M r 20 C h a ir p e r s o n i s t h i s . H e is o n e o f t h e l e a d e r s o f a n o r g a n i – a n N G O c a l l e d # U n i te B e h in d . They have been involved both with and against P R A S A i n t h e c o u r ts . F o r e x a m p le i n t h e S iy a n g e n a m a t t e r t h e y a r e w i t h P R A S A a g a in s t S iy a n g n a . B u t i n o t h e r m a t t e r s fo r e x a m p le a g a in s t t h e H AW K S a n d s o o n t h e – th e r e t h e y a r e w i t h P R A S A a g a i n s t – a g a i n s t t h e H AW K S f o r n o t d o i n g th e ir j o b . N o w h e h a s t a k e n – h e h a s r e s e a r c h e d t h is a n d h e m a k e s t w o p o i n t s M r C h a ir m a n w h i c h I s u b m i t a r e v e r y v i ta l . T h a t a s a p u b li c b o d y t h e y w e r e e n t i tl e d to l o o k Page 24 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 a t o u r p u b lic r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s t o f ix u p m a tt e r s . So in February 2018 U n i te B e h in d s e n t a s u b m is s i o n t o P a r li a m e n t o n S t a te C a p t u r e a t P R A S A . P a r li a m e n t u n d e r t o o k to c o n d u c t th a t i n q u ir y. I t h a s r e n e g e d o n t h a t a n d i t h a s n o t h a p p e n e d to t h is d a y t h r e e y e a r s l a te r. And a g a in h is p o i n t is i f y o u h a d d o n e w h a t y o u a r e p a i d to d o a s P a r li a m e n ta r i a n s m a y b e P R A S A w o u ld n o t b e i n t h i s s o r r y s ta t e a n d w e w o u ld n o t b e s a y i n g th in g s a b o u t P R A S A t o d a y. B u t f i n a ll y I n e e d to m a k e t h i s p o in t a b o u t M r Ac h m a t ’s e v id e n c e . M r C h a ir p e r s o n a t s o m e le v e l t h o s e o f u s w h o – w h o a r e in v o lv e d in i n v e s ti g a ti o n s in t o S t a t e 10 C a p t u r e o r i n d is c u s s i o n s i n S t a t e C a p t u r e a n d s o o n w e d e a l w i t h t h i s o n t h e b a s i s t h a t t h e S t a t e C a p tu r e is t h e r e . W h a t Mr Ac h m a t d o e s is h e t e l ls y o u t h e d ir e c t e ff e c t th is h a s o n m e n , w o m e n a n d c h il d r e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I w a n t e d t o s a y – I f o r g o t t o s w it c h o ff m y c e l l p h o n e . S o m a y I r e m i n d e v e r y b o d y t o d o s o . S o i t ju s t r a n g a t t h e w r o n g t i m e . So yes please proceed. A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t – b u t t h e v a l u e o f h is e v id e n c e i s h e is n o t t a lk in g a s fr o m a f a r a fi e ld . H e is s a y in g , I t a k e t h e ( i n d is t in c t ) . I lo o k a t w h a t h a p p e n s . W e h a v e b e e n fi g h ti n g t h is f o r t h e la s t s ix y e a r s o r so nothing has happened. 20 N o th in g g o o d h a s h a p p e n e d i n f a c t i f a n y th in g th e s i tu a ti o n h a s d e t e r i o r a t e d . h a s fa il e d . And in that sense everybody M o s t v u ln e r a b l e m e m b e r s o f o u r s o c i e ty. That our d e m o c r a c y ( i n d is ti n c t) M r C h a i r m a n c a n n o t c o n t i n u e . CHAIRPERSON: G o in g b a c k t o t h e is s u e o f t h e a d m i n is tr a t o r, t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f th e a d m i n i s tr a t o r f o r P R A S A d o y o u k n o w h o w fa r t h e li ti g a t i o n is th a t o n e h a s h e a r d a b o u t? Page 25 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : U n i te B e h in d a p p o i n t m e n t. w h ic h Ye s . challenge I t is b e f o r e th e c o u r ts b r o u g h t b y th e M i n is t e r ’s power to make that T h a t M r C h a ir m a n u n f o r t u n a t e ly i s a m a t t e r in t h e W e s t e r n C a p e H ig h C o u r t . I h a v e n o t e n q u ir e d b u t I k n o w i t is s ti ll in … CHAIRPERSON: Ye s e x c h a n g e o f a ffi d a v i ts . O k a y. I t w i ll b e in t e r e s ti n g to k n o w h o w f a r it is t o g e t ti n g a d a t e i f p o s s i b le w h e th e r w e – i t is a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e a l l a ffi d a v it s a r e i n a n d t h e d a te m i g h t b e a l lo c a t e d a t a n y t i m e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Q u it e s o y e s . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : It ju s t m i g h t b e i m p o r t a n t to k n o w. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir p e r s o n th e n t h a t is g o i n g t o b e th e t o ta li ty o f t h e e v i d e n c e a n d s o m e o f t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t is g o in g t o b e le d d u r i n g t h is s e s s i o n s . B e c a u s e in … CHAIRPERSON: Okay no thank you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M a y I t h e n ju s t a g a in a ll o w y o u t o n a v i g a t e t h r o u g h t h e r a th e r b u lk y b u n d l e s t h a t h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t e d t o y o u a n d i f I c o u ld j u s t o r i e n ta t e y o u to w a r d s t h o s e M r C h a ir p e r s o n . 20 S S 1 is t h e le g i s l a ti o n a n d o f c o u r s e th e r e a r e tw o v e r y i m p o r ta n t p r o v is io n s t h e r e t h a t is t h e le g a l s e c e s s io n h a d b e c a u s e t h a t w il l d e t e r m i n e th e p o w e r s o f th e M i n i s te r i n r e g a r d t o t h e a p p o i n t m e n t o f a – o f a n a d m i n i s tr a t o r a n d n o t h a v in g a b o a r d . A n d s e c o n d l y t h e b o a r d c h a r t e r w h ic h a s I s a y h a s a s p e c i fi c p r o v is i o n w h i c h I w il l r e f e r y o u to a t t h e a p p r o p r ia t e ti m e M r C h a ir m a n t h a t t h e r e is – t h a t t h e M in i s t e r a p p o i n ts t h e C E O o n th e Page 26 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f th e b o a r d . A n d t h e n o f c o u r s e t h e r e le v a n t p r o v i s i o n s o f th e P F M A a n d t h e o n e t h a t i s i m p o r t a n t is 4 9 a n d 5 0 t h a t t h e b o a r d i s th e a c c o u n ti n g a u t h o r i ty o f P R A S A . A n d t h e n o f c o u r s e I h a v e d e a l t w i th t h e t w o j u d g m e n ts r e g a r d in g S w i fa m b o a n d t h e n t h e y n e e d to t a k e y o u to t h e t h i r d j u d g m e n t Mr C h a ir p e r s o n . I t is a ju d g m e n t t h a t M s M o l e fe i s w e ll q u a l if i e d t o d e a l w i t h b e c a u s e i t is h i s t a k i n g t h e M i n is t e r t o c o u r t . Th e M i n i s te r a t t h a t t i m e M i n is t e r D ip u o P e t e r s b e c a u s e s h e d is s o lv e d th e b o a r d w i t h o u t g o o d r e a s o n a n d th e H ig h C o u r t s e t a s i d e th a t d e c is io n a n d t h e c o m m e n t s y o u h a v e m a d e a b o u t 10 the importance of the board. A n d t h e n t h e f o u r th d e c is io n t h e r e is P R A S A b r i n g i n g Mr M o l e f e e ffe c tiv e ly b r i n g i n g a n a p p l ic a t i o n a g a i n s t t h e H AW K S t o i n v e s t i g a t e t h e S w i f a m b o a n d t h e S i y a n g e n a m a tt e r s a n d as I say nothing has been done. T h e s i g n i fic a n c e o f t h a t t h o u g h M r C h a ir p e r s o n is t h e – t h e H AW K S in th e i r fir s t r e s p o n s e to th is v e r y s e r io u s c h a r g e th a t y o u a r e n o t d o i n g y o u r j o b th e y c h a l le n g e M r M o le f e ’s l o c u s s ta n d i t o b r i n g th e a p p li c a ti o n . A n d J u d g e D a v i s in a r a th e r s c a th i n g j u d g m e n t s a y s : i t is a p i t y t h a t o r g a n s o f s ta t e w o u l d w a s te s t a t e m o n e y to d e a l w i t h p r o l if e r a b l e m a t t e r s r a t h e r t h a n g e t ti n g t o t h e s o u r c e o f th e m a t t e r. 20 I t i s c l e a r l y a s c a th i n g in d ic t m e n t o f th e w a y t h e H AW K S h a v e p u r p o r t t o e x e r c i s e t h e ir p o w e r s . Then Mr C h a ir p e r s o n i t i s – I s u p p o s e t h e ( i n d is t in c t) t h e r e a r e t w o m a t t e r s t h a t w e w i ll r e f e r t o a t d i ff e r e n t p a r ts . I a m n o t g o i n g t o ta k e y o u t h r o u g h e v e r y t h i n g b u t I m e r e ly m a k e th is p o i n t M r C h a ir p e r s o n o n e o f th in g s w e w a n t to s a y is y e s w e k n o w w h a t t h e S w if a m b o c o u r t s a id a b o u t – a b o u t ir r e g u l a r i t ie s , c o r r u p t i o n a n d f r o n ti n g a s w e ll . B u t w h a t w e w a n t Page 27 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 t o s h o w w i t h t h e s e o t h e r s a n d t h e y in c lu d e t h e ir c r it ic is m o f M r M o n ta n a w o u l d t h e s e is t h e r o l e t h a t M r M o n ta n a g a v e i n i t. A n d th e n S S 4 M r C h a ir p e r s o n is a g e n e r a l r e f e r e n c e b u n d l e b e c a u s e M r – fo r e x a m p l e Mr A c h m a t h a d m e n ti o n e d c e r ta i n d o c u m e n t s w h ic h s o m e o f t h e i m p li c a t e d p a r t i e s a n d i t s a i d t h e y w a n t c o p ie s o f a n d w e h a v e in c l u d e d o n e o f th o s e i n th is r e f e r e n c e b u n d l e . A n d th e n P R A S A’s P o lic i e s a n d Pr o c e d u r e s j u s t i n c a s e y o u w a n t t o l o o k a t t h e m M r C h a ir p e r s o n . T h e n i n t h e a ff id a v i t o f M r A c h m a t h e r e fe r s to t h e r o l e o f M r Ar t h u r Fr a s e r w h o m w e a ll k n o w fr o m t h e S S A a n d h e s a y s t h a t Mr 10 Fr a s e r w o r k e d t h r o u g h R e s e a r c h in g R i s k – R e s e a r c h in g R is k w a s h is company th r o u g h w h ic h he o ffe r e d security services to PRASA n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h a t b e in g i n t h e s e c u r i ty s e r v i c e s o f t h e s ta t e it w a s h is d u t y t o p r o v i d e t h a t i n h is c a p a c i ty – i n t h e c a p a c i t y h e o c c u p ie d a t t h a t t i m e . S o t h a t is t h e R e s e a r c h i n g R i s k R e p o r t a n d t h e n t h e r e a r e d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e e d i n g s a g a i n s t M r Zi d e r e l e v a n c e o f t h a t w i ll c o m e a t a l a t e r s t a g e Mr C h a ir m a n . T h e n w e h a v e a L i q u id a t o r s R e p o r t . We are not going to present it to you Mr Chairperson and I should explain w e h a d in t e n d e d i t t o s h o w t h e b e n e f i ts t h a t M r M a b u n d a r e c e iv e d . Th e L i q u i d a t o r s R e p o r t r e f e r s to a n u m b e r o f – o f t h e p e o p le a n d o n f u r t h e r 20 c o n s i d e r a ti o n w e th o u g h t w e s h o u l d p r e s e n t t h a t a s w h e n – s o r r y a t t h e ti m e w e p r e s e n t th e m o n e y fl o w m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o P R A S A s o th a t w e c o u l d j u s t a r t ic u l a te a n d is o l a t e th o s e p e r s o n s . But if other persons a r e m e n ti o n e d t h e y w o u l d b e g iv e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty a n d w e w o u l d s h o w t h e m w h y w e a r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e m . S o t h o s e a r e t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t a r e b e f o r y o u M r C h a ir m a n a n d t h o s e a r e – t h a t is t h e s u m m a r y o f t h e Page 28 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 e v i d e n c e t h a t w il l b e l e d . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t a k e i t t h a t a l l i m p li c a t e d p e r s o n s h a v e b e e n s e r v e d w i t h R u le 3 .3 N o t ic e s a n d t h e p e r i o d o f fo u r t e e n d a y s h a s l a p s e d ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a i r p e r s o n I h a v e a d o c u m e n t h e r e I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e tw o p o i n ts . 10 There is one person who was not served and a c o m p a n y h e i s a s s o c i a t e d w i t h th a t i s b e c a u s e h e is fr o m Z i m b a b w e a n d h e h a s m o v e d b a c k t o Zi m b a b w e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o – b u t e v e r y b o d y e ls e w h o i s i m p li c a t e d h a s been served. CHAIRPERSON: Hm. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d – a n d … CHAIRPERSON: S o y o u h a v e n o t b e e n a b l e to fi n d a n y w a y o f c o m m u n ic a ti n g g iv i n g n o ti c e t o t h e p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n a n d h is c o m p a n y ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d h e is n o t a t th e c e n tr e o f t h i n g s w h i c h is t h e e ffo r t t h a t w a s p u t in w a s o n t h e b a s i s t h a t h o w r e le v a n t i s t h a t evidence. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. O k a y. S o y o u r e a d y t o s t a r t w i th th e f ir s t witness? Page 29 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e a r e r e a d y t o m e e t o u r f ir s t w i t n e s s . CHAIRPERSON: W e a r e a t e ig h t mi n u te s p a s t e l e v e n a n d w e d u e to h a v e t h e te a b r e a k a t q u a r te r p a s t . M a y b e w e s h o u l d s t a r t s o t h a t t h e o a t h is a d m i n i s t e r e d a n d m a y b e s o m e p r e li m i n a r y is s u e s t h e n w e ta k e the break. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n h e c o n ti n u e s a f t e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . Ye s Mr C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y. P l e a s e a d m i n is t e r – w e l l y o u w a n t t o t e l l u s t h e n a m e o f th e w i t n e s s y o u c a ll i n g ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . Tir o H o l e l e . CHAIRPERSON: A n d y o u w a n t t o s p e ll t h a t f o r t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e tr a n s c r ib e r s ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : T- i- r - o H - o - l- e - l- e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. P l e a s e a d mi n i s t e r th e o a t h o r a ff ir m a ti o n . R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d s ? M R H O L E L E : Tir o H o l e le . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? MR HOLELE: No I do not. 20 REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r conscience? M R H O L E L E : Ye s I d o . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th in g e ls e b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e G o d . Page 30 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 M R H O L E L E : S o h e lp m e G o d . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Maybe we should take the tea a d j o u r n m e n t o r d o y o u th in k m a y b e y o u c o u l d – y o u c o u ld u s e th is f iv e m i n u t e s le f t ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Fo r p r e l i m i n a r y is s u e s ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e r e i s o n e is s u e Mr C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C u r r e n t ly th e w i t n e s s d e a ls w i t h a m e e t in g r e l a ti n g 10 t o P r o d ig y a n d P r o d i g y ’s l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t i v e i s h e r e . M r C h a ir p e r s o n I k n o w y o u a s k e d m u c h e a r l i e r i f t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s a t t h a t t i m e n o b o d y w a s h e r e b u t h e w o u ld lik e t o p la c e h i m s e l f o n r e c o r d . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t h i m p la c e h i ms e l f o n r e c o r d . H e w i ll c o m e – y o u w il l c o m e t o t h a t – t o th e p o d i u m t h e r e . A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K LA L L : G o o d m o r n i n g J u d g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g , g o o d m o r n i n g y o u a r e n o t n e w in th is c o m m i s s io n . A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K LA L L : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V R AV I N D R A M A N IK L A L L : G o o d m o r n i n g J u d g e it is M a n ik l a l l in it i a l i s R . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K LA L L : J u d g e I r e p r e s e n t a c tu a l ly t w o p a r ti e s in t h is p r o c e e d in g s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 31 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K L A L L: Fi r s t p a r t y m y le a r n e d fr i e n d c o r r e c t ly p o i n t e d o u t is a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r b y t h e n a m e o f P r o d i g y. I c o m m o n ly r e fe r t o P r o d i g y i n p r o c e e d in g s . And Judge these – this party is s u b j e c t in v o lv e d i n l it i g a t io n w i t h P R A S A . T h a t is c u r r e n tl y b e f o r e t h e c o u r ts . T h a t i s w h y I w i ll n o t ta k e i t a n y f u r t h e r t h a n t h a t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K L A L L: B u t b e i n g – r e s e r v e th e r i g h ts t o a p p l y f o r L e a v e t o C r o s s - E x a m in e s u b j e c t to J u d g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 10 A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K LA L L : D i s c r e ti o n in t h e m a t t e r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e . A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K LA L L : Ye s . T h a t is t h e fir s t p a r ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V R AV I N D R A M A N IK L A L L: J u d g e t h e s e c o n d p a r ty t h a t I r e p r e s e n t is o n e my l e a r n e d fr i e n d d i d s p e n d s o m e ti m e o n a n d th a t i s M r M o o d l e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K L A L L: A n d J u d g e w it h t h e s a m e – w i t h o u t t a k i n g t o o m u c h o f y o u r t i m e e s s e n ti a lly M r M o o d l e y d e n ie s t h e 20 a l le g a ti o n s t h a t h a v e b e e n m a d e . H e s a i d h e w i ll m a k e t h e n e c e s s a r y a p p lic a ti o n in d u e c o u r s e fo r L e a v e t o C r o s s - Ex a m i n e th e s e w it n e s s e s t h a t m a k e s t h e a ll e g a t i o n s a n d h e w i ll e a s il y d is p e l th e n o t i o n t h a t m y le a r n e d fr i e n d s e t f o r th i n t h e a d d r e s s w h i c h is o b v i o u s ly a r r iv i n g fr o m w h a t th e w i t n e s s e s s a y i n t h e ir a ff i d a v i ts . B u t J u d g e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Page 32 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K LA L L : I t w o u ld b e p r e m a t u r e f o r m e t o a d d r e s s y o u o n t h a t u n t il w e li s te n to t h e w it n e s s ’ e v id e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a n o th a t is tr u e . A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K LA L L : T h a t is f o r t h e r e c o r d J u d g e . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you very much. A D V R AV I N D R A M A N I K LA L L : CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. Thank you. Mr Soni. I t h i n k w e m a y j u s t ta k e t h e t e a adjournment. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s y o u p l e a s e y e s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: A n d d is c u s s w h e n w e c o m e b a c k . W e a r e g o in g t o take the tea adjournment and we are going to resume at half past eleven. We adjourn. R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES A D V VA S S O N I S C : . . . S S 1 0 , e x h i b i t S S 1 0 i t s ta r t s a t 5 , 6 , 8 , 9 , 1 0 a n d 11 . CHAIRPERSON: M a y b e t h e y m u s t m a tc h t h is fir s t s o t h a t w e d o n ’ t f o r g e t , s o t h a t w e d o n ’ t f o r g e t . A n d n o w t h e – I s e e t h a t t h is f il e h a s 20 g o t S S 5 , S S 8 , S S 9 , t h e r e ’s n o 6 a n d 7 , i s t h a t s o m e w h e r e e l s e ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s a n d t h a t ’s b e c a u s e w e a r e u n l ik e ly t o r e f e r to t h o s e t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: O h , I t h i n k i t m i g h t b e b e t t e r if t h e y w e r e u n d e r o n e exhibit and then we have A, B, C, D, E because it helps when we admit it h e l p s i f w h a t th e y s a y is w h a t th e y s e e . Page 33 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: A n d o n t h e s p in e o f t h e fi le . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . Ye s . S o I t h i n k w h e n my m i c is o n y o u r s s h o u l d b e o ff I t h i n k , I t h i n k t h a t’s , ja , o t h e r w i s e th e r e is e c h o , a n d w h e n y o u r s is o n m i n e w o u ld b e o ff, a n d w e w il l d o i t li k e t h a t. I d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t w o u ld b e t h e s a m e w i t h th e w i t n e s s , b u t y o u w i ll n e e d y o u r s t o b e o n w h e n y o u a r e a s k i n g t h e w i tn e s s a n d h is w i ll n e e d to b e o n b e c a u s e h e w i ll b e a n s w e r i n g , a n y o th e r th in g t w o c o u l d b e o n w i t h o u t a n y p r o b l e m , 10 I a m h o p i n g t h a t s o m e b o d y i s g o i n g t o w h i s p e r to y o u j u s t n o w a s I f e e l w h a t th e p o s i ti o n is a n d y o u w il l l e t m e k n o w in d u e c o u r s e . N o w w i th r e g a r d t o t h is l e v e r a r c h i t h a s g o t t h e s e e x h i b i ts , t h e s e s t a te m e n ts th a t t h e y a r e m a r k e d u n d e r d i ff e r e n t – a s d i ffe r e n t e x h i b i t s a n d t h e f i le is n o t a c o n tr o l li n g fi le a n d w o u l d i t b e e a s y t o make this as EXHIBIT – or it can’t be EXHIBIT S5 and then A, B, C, D b e c a u s e y o u a lr e a d y h a v e t h i s , o k a y, m a y b e fo r o t h e r – o k a y s w i tc h y o u r s o ff , m a y b e y o u w a n t – o r t h e o t h e r le v e r a r c h fi l e s s o m e b o d y n e e d s t o a t t e n d t o t h a t, i t i s t h e w a y w e h a v e b e e n d o i n g t h e m a l l th e ti m e , w h a t i s w r i t t e n o n t h e s p i n e o f t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e s h o u l d b e 20 in d i c a t in g t h e c o n tr o l li n g e x h ib i t a n d th e n if n e c e s s a r y y o u c a n h a v e A , B , C w h ic h a r e in s i d e t h e l e v e r a r c h fi le , t h a t m a k e s i t e a s i e r s o y o u r ju n i o r c o u n s e l s h o u l d b e a b l e t o a tt e n d t o t h a t i n r e g a r d t o t h e o th e r s . I g u e s s w e ju s t h a v e t o u s e t h i s a s is b e c a u s e w e d o n ’ t h a v e ti m e t o c h a n g e b u t a l l t h e o th e r s . . . [i n d is t in c t ] s h o u l d b e m a d e t o tr y a n d a l ig n t h e m w i th h o w w e h a v e b e e n d e a li n g w i th t h e o th e r s , j a . Page 34 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e I t h i n k – j a i t ’s c o m p l ic a te d , i t is a q u e s t io n o f i d e n t i fic a ti o n , w h e n I a s k s o m e b o d y t o g o a n d l o o k fo r i t I m u s t b e a b l e t o s a y it is a l e v e r a r c h f il e m a r k e d s o a n d s o b u t h e r e i t s a y s E X H I B I T S S 5 , E X H I B I T S H a n d s o o n a n d s o o n , w h i c h a r e e x h i b i ts in s i d e , th a t ’s f in e , b u t s o i f I s a y E X H I B I T S S 5 it i s n o t 5 i t’s a n e x h i b it in s i d e b u t o f c o u r s e t h e i m p o r t a n t t h i n g i s n o t t h e fi le f o r a d m i s s io n , i t is t h e c o n t e n ts b u t fo r id e n t i fi c a t io n i t h e lp s i f o n e s a y s o n th e s p i n e t h is is th e fi le . I t h i n k w e w il l ju s t d e a l w it h e a c h e x h i b i t a s i t c o m e s , m a y b e 10 w e w il l fi n d a w a y o f s o r t in g it o u t l a t e r, l e t u s d e a l w i th t h e m a s t h e y c o m e , s o w e w ill a d m i t e a c h e x h i b i t a s n e e d a r is e s , a n d n o t e v e r y t h i n g at the beginning. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s i t p l e a s e s . Mr C h a ir m a n I a p o l o g i s e , I c a m e in t o a p r o c e s s w h ic h I w a s t o l d o p e r a te in t h is w a y. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , n o , n o t h a t’s f in e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: A n d o b v io u s ly it ’s n o t th e c a s e . I t ’s n o t t h e c a s e y e s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e a l s o b e e n to l d t h a t t h e f a c i li ty t h a t e x i s t e d a t th e p r e v io u s v e n u e e x i s t h e r e , in o t h e r w o r d s a ll 20 o u r m i c s c a n b e o n a t t h e s a m e t i m e , t h a t’s w h a t I h a v e b e e n t o ld . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll th e w a y i t i s – m y v o i c e is w h e n y o u r s i s o n d o e s n o t a p p e a r to b e w h a t o n e e x p e c ts , b u t l e t ’s c o n t in u e I a m s u r e t h e y w i ll b e d o i n g w h a t th e y m a y n e e d t o d o , b u t I w i ll p u t m i n e o ff w h il e y o u a r e t a lk i n g a n d w h i le t h e w i t n e s s is ta lk in g a n d w h e n I p u t i t o n – I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r i t i s t h e s a m e , w h a t is y o u r f e e l i n g w h e n I Page 35 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 s p e a k w i th m y m ic o n a n d m i n e b e in g o n a n d w h e n y o u r s is o ff , is i t lik e t h e s a m e . J a , I t h i n k I s e e s o m e b o d y e l s e b e h in d w h o c o r r o b o r a t e s y o u s o m a y b e t h e p r o b l e m is j u s t m e . Ye s , o k a y if t h e t e c h n ic ia n s a y it is fi n e i f a l l t h r e e a r e o n a t t h e s a m e ti m e j a , I a m to ld t h a t i t is fi n e , o k a y w e c a n k e e p t h e m o n th e n . O k a y, y o u m a y p r o c e e d . S w i tc h i t o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Mr Holele where are you employed at the moment? MR HOLELE: 10 I a m . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: H a n g o n , le t ’s i d e n t if y th e s ta t e m e n t fir s t s o t h a t w h e r e i t . .. [ in d is ti n c t – e c h o o n r e c o r d i n g ] le t h i m c o n fi r m t h a t i t is h i s s t a te m e n t a n d th e n y o u t a k e i t fr o m t h e r e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . M r H o l e l e y o u h a v e m a d e a s ta t e m e n t in r e l a ti o n t o t h e e v id e n c e y o u a r e a b o u t to g iv e t o d a y. MR HOLELE: Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: Ye s I d o C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: 20 EXHIBIT SS10. Ye s s ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: Now that statement is marked SS10, am I correct. Ye s s ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: D o y o u h a v e t h e s t a t e m e n t in fr o n t o f y o u ? Now you have read the statement? Ye s s ir. CHAIRPERSON: H a n g o n , I m u s t ju s t g e t to i t. Ye s ? Ye s c o n ti n u e . Page 36 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : As it p l e a s e s . Yo u c o n f ir m t h e c o r r e c t n e s s o f w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d in h e r e s ir ? MR HOLELE: Ye s I d o C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w I w a n t to a s k y o u w h e r e d o y o u w o r k a t t h e moment? MR HOLELE: I a m t h e Ac t in g C E O o f A u t o p a x , a w h o ll y o w n e d s u b s i d ia r y o f t h e P a s s e n g e r R a il A g e n c y o f S o u t h A fr ic a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i n y o u r p r e v io u s p o s i ti o n s in P R A S A o r a n y o f it s s u b s i d i a r i e s w h a t p o s i t io n s d i d y o u h o l d ? 10 MR HOLELE: Va r i o u s r o l e s C h a ir p e r s o n , I h a v e b e e n a G e n e r a l M a n a g e r i n t h e O ff ic e o f th e G r o u p C E O o f P R A S A . A D V VA S S O N I S C : J u s t a t t h a t p o in t w h e n y o u s a y t h e G r o u p C E O w h o m a r e y o u t a l k i n g a b o u t , th e i d e n t i ty o f th e p e r s o n ? MR HOLELE: Mr L u c k y M o n t a n a . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: Who? Mr L u c k y M o n t a n a . CHAIRPERSON: O h o k a y, th a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t h i n k y o u r v o i c e i s f a l li n g a n d I t h in k l ik e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s h a v i n g d i ff ic u l ty. 20 I f y o u c o u ld c l o s e r to m ic . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , ju s t tr y t h e b e s t y o u c a n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: Lucky Montana. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . G e n e r a l M a n a g e r i n th e O ff ic e o f t h e G r o u p C E O , M r I h a v e b e e n . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] A n d . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] a s y o u – h e is a s k i n g h i s q u e s ti o n s Page 37 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 b u t y o u f a c e m e , I t h i n k t h a t ’s g o in g t o h e l p m e t o h e a r w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g . MR HOLELE: Ye s I w i ll d o t h a t . A n d I h a v e b e e n G e n e r a l M a n a g e r fo r C o r p o r a te A ff a ir s in P R A S A a t s o m e p o i n t . I have been Group Chief S tr a t e g y O ffi c e r a n d I h a v e a ls o b e e n a m a n a g e r, a n e x e c u ti v e m a n a g e r a t I n t e r s it e A s s e t I n v e s t m e n ts w h ic h is a n o t h e r s u b s i d i a r y o f P R A S A lo o k in g a t t h e p r o p e r ty a n d o t h e r r e l a t e d a s s e ts , a n d I h a v e b e e n t h e n b a c k a g a in t o C o r p o r a t e O ff ic e a s G r o u p E x e c u t iv e i n t h e O ff i c e o f t h e G r o u p C E O a fe w y e a r s a g o , u n ti l r e c e n tly a n d n o w I a m A c ti n g C E O a t 10 t h e P R A S A . . . [ i n d is ti n c t – r e c o r d i n g f a u l ty ] CHAIRPERSON: I w o n d e r w h e t h e r y o u n e e d to l o w e r t h e m ic , j a , I t h i n k m a y b e it m i g h t h a v e a b e t t e r c h a n c e o f c a p t u r i n g w h a t y o u s a y, o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w M r H o l e l e i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t fr o m p a r a g r a p h 5 t o p a r a g r a p h 7 y o u r e f e r t o a n a ffi d a v i t m a d e b y M s N g o y e a n d a n a ffi d a v i t b y M r D in g i s w a y o . MR HOLELE: Ye s I d o C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I w a n t t o r e tu r n t o t h o s e m a t te r s in a li t tl e w h i le , I w a n t to s t a r t o ff t h o u g h y o u r e v id e n c e w i t h w h a t y o u s a y i n r e g a r d t o 20 t h e m e e t in g t h a t y o u , M r R a k g o a th e , a n d M r M o o d l e y h a d , a r e y o u aware of that? MR HOLELE: Ye s I a m . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: b e g in n i n g of L e t ’s s t a r t o ff w h e n w a s t h a t m e e t in g h e l d ? T h e m e e ti n g w a s h e l d C h a ir p e r s o n i n 2 0 1 7 a t t h e the y e a r, I think it could Page 38 of 124 have been around 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 February/March. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: H o w d i d th a t m e e ti n g c o m e a b o u t? I w a s c a l le d b y I t h in k t h e M D , M a n a g i n g D ir e c to r o f . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: Ms N e r i s h n i S h u n n u g a n a n d s h e a s k e d f o r a m e e t i n g . CHAIRPERSON: names Who was that? M a y b e i t w o u ld b e g o o d i f w e c a n g i v e s p e lli n g s f o r th a t m ig h t n o t b e fa m i li a r in te r ms o f s p e ll in g fo r t h e tr a n s c r ib e r s . Ye s , y o u c a n g iv e i t i f y o u a r e a b l e to . 10 MR HOLELE: N e r is h n i I t h in k i t is . . .[ i n te r v e n e s ] A D V VA S S O N I S C : N - e - r - i- s - h - n - e a n d S h u n n u g a n is S- h - u - n - n - u - g - a n. CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: Thank you. Ye s I w a s c a l le d b y M s S h u n n u g a n , a n d s h e r e q u e s t e d a m e e ti n g a n d b e c a u s e a t t h a t p o in t n o w I w a s C h ie f E x e c u tiv e in t h e o ffic e o f t h e G r o u p C E O a n d s h e r e q u e s t e d a m e e ti n g t o . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y, b u t i t is g o i n g t o b e i m p o r ta n t , a t t h a t t i m e who was the Group CEO. MR HOLELE: 20 A t t h a t t i m e M r L in k e K a ju b e d e . .. [ in d is ti n c t ] w a s t h e A c ti n g G r o u p C E O o f . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] A D V VA S S O N I S C : D o e s th a t m e a n th a t t h is i s lo n g a f t e r M r M o n t a n a le f t ? MR HOLELE: Ye s s ir. A n d s o M s S h u n n u g a n a s k e d fo r a m e e t i n g a n d w e d i s c u s s e d y o u k n o w t h e is s u e s r e l a ti n g , t h e i s s u e s b e tw e e n P R A S A a n d P r o d i g y a n d I a g r e e d t o th e m . Page 39 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: N o w ju s t t e l l u s w h o w a s Pr o d i g y ? P r o d i g y w a s a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r, p r o v id in g t r a i n i n g fo r e m p l o y e e s o n I th i n k c u s t o m e r r e l a te d s e r v ic e s m a tt e r s . CHAIRPERSON: C a n I f in d o u t w h e th e r t h e t r a n s c r i b e r s h a v e n o p r o b le m h e a r in g w h a t th e w i t n e s s i s s a y i n g ? I a m j u s t c o n c e r n e d th a t w e g o o n f o r q u i t e s o m e ti m e o n l y t o fi n d o u t l a te r th a t t h e y a r e s tr u g g li n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s . T h e y c a n h e a r, o k a y, a l r ig h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A l r i g h t , s o l e t ’s g e t t o th e m e e ti n g n o w, y o u a r e c a l l e d b y M s S h u n n u g a n a n d y o u a g r e e to t h e m e e ti n g ? MR HOLELE: Ye s A d v o c a t e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: N o I d id n o t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: D i d y o u g o a l o n e fr o m P R A S A s i d e ? W h o w e n t w it h y o u ? I a s k e d M r c o ll e a g u e M r J a c o b R a k g o a t h e w h o is i n t h e le g a l s e c t io n to a c c o m p a n y m e to t h e m e e t in g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I s t h e r e a n y p a r t ic u l a r r e a s o n y o u a s k e d h i m t o accompany you? 20 MR HOLELE: Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n t h e r e is , b e c a u s e I k n e w t h a t t h e r e w a s y o u k n o w t h is d i s p u t e b e t w e e n P R A S A a n d P r o d i g y I f e l t i t p r u d e n t t o ju s t g e t s o m e b o d y t o a c c o m p a n y m e t o t h a t m e e t in g a n d g i v e n t h a t I c o u l d g e t s o m e b o d y fr o m t h e l e g a l s e c t i o n o f t h e c o m p a n y. CHAIRPERSON: Maybe just tell us what the issue was between P R A S A a n d P r o d i g y. Page 40 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: I f I r e c a ll C h a ir I t h i n k t h e r e w e r e r e a ll y t w o , t h e f ir s t w a s g e n e r a l ly a d is p u t e r e g a r d i n g t h e v a li d i ty o f t h e c o n tr a c t , b u t o n t h is m e e ti n g i t w a s a b o u t p a y m e n t th a t P r o d i g y f e l t w a s d u e t o P r o d i g y a n d P R A S A w a s i n d is p u t e r e g a r d i n g th a t p a y m e n t . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t w a s t h e p a y m e n t w h ic h w a s t h e s e c o n d is s u e , w a s t h e p a y m e n t i n r e l a ti n g t o a d i ff e r e n t c o n tr a c t o r i n r e la t io n t o t h e s a m e c o n tr a c t, t h e v a li d i t y o f w h ic h w a s b e in g c h a ll e n g e d b y P R A S A ? MR HOLELE: I t w a s i n r e l a ti o n t o th e s a m e c o n tr a c t C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: 10 O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w y o u g o t o th is m e e ti n g w h o m d id y o u e x p e c t w o u ld b e r e p r e s e n t i n g P r o d ig y a t th e m e e ti n g ? MR HOLELE: I e x p e c t e d M s N e r is h n i S h u n n u g a n to b e r e p r e s e n ti n g P r o d i g y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: A n d w h e r e w a s t h e m e e t in g to t a k e p l a c e ? I n t h e P R A S A b u il d i n g a n d in t h e s m a l l b o a r d r o o m o f t h e Group CEO. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W a s th e r e a n y d is c u s s io n a b o u t w h a t t h e v e n u e o f t h e m e e t in g s h o u ld b e ? MR HOLELE: 20 Ye s , M s S h u n n u g a n w a n te d th e m e e t in g to b e o u t s i d e o f t h e P R A S A b u il d in g . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: Outside PRAS A? Ye s o u ts i d e P R A S A . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: D i d s h e i n d ic a te w h y ? S h e s a id s o m e t h in g t o th e e ffe c t th a t i t w a s f o r m y o w n Page 41 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 p r o t e c t io n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: F o r y o u r p r o t e c ti o n ? Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] I ’ m s o r r y, I ’ m s o r r y t h e r e w a s a m in u t e o r t w o w h e n I c o u l d h e a r y o u v e r y c l e a r ly, I d o n ’t k n o w w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d b u t o th e r w i s e t h e r e is s o m e d i ffi c u l ty, ju s t r e p e a t w h y s h e w a n t e d th e m e e ti n g t o b e o u t s i d e o f P R A S A ? MR HOLELE: 10 S h e s a id f o r m y o w n p r o t e c ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: O h y o u r o w n p r o t e c t io n . Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: W h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d th a t to b e ? I t w a s b i z a r r e , i t w a s a b iz a r r e s t a t e m e n t C h a ir a n d I s a i d n o t h e m e e t in g w il l ta k e p l a c e i n th e P R A S A b u il d in g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h y d i d y o u in s i s t o n t h e m e e ti n g b e i n g h e l d a t t h e P R A S A b u i ld i n g ? MR HOLELE: Fo r t h e r e a s o n s t h a t y o u k n o w I h a v e s p e l t o u t C h a ir t h a t i t is a s e n s i tiv e m a t t e r, i t is a m a tt e r i n c o u r t, i t is a m a tt e r in 20 d is p u te a n d i t j u s t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n i m p r o p e r fo r m e to h a v e a f o r m a l m e e ti n g o f th e b u s i n e s s o n a m a t te r li k e t h is o u ts id e o f t h e b u s in e s s . CHAIRPERSON: I wonder whether – you see I can hear you Mr Soni m u c h b e t te r a n d I a m s tr u g g li n g to h e a r t h e w i t n e s s , I w o n d e r w h e th e r if h e is s i tt i n g e ls e w h e r e th a t w o u ld c h a n g e , i m p r o v e a n y th i n g . Okay le t ’s s e e h o w it g o e s a n d t h e n i f n e e d b e w e c o u l d – m a y b e m u c h Page 42 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 f u r th e r b e c a u s e I c a n h e a r y o u w e ll , b u t l e t ’s tr y a g a in . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I m u s t c o n f e s s Mr C h a ir I a m a ls o h a v i n g s o m e d i ff ic u l ty w i t h h e a r i n g .. . [i n d i s ti n c t ] CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, le t ’s t r y a n d s e e a ft e r t h e i n t e r v e n t i o n a n d s e e if t h e r e is a n y i m p r o v e m e n t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Q u i t e ir o n ic a lly s h e t h o u g h t t h a t i f t h e m e e ti n g is h e l d o u ts id e P R A S A y o u w o u l d b e p r o t e c t e d , b u t y o u th o u g h t i f th e m e e ti n g w a s h e l d a t P R A S A y o u w o u l d b e p r o t e c t e d . MR HOLELE: 10 Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: D i d y o u a s k w h y s h e w a s s a y in g y o u n e e d e d p r o t e c t io n f o r t h is m e e t i n g ? MR HOLELE: N o I d id n o t . It5 was just enough reason for me . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] th a t i t b e in t h e b u i ld in g . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: Ye s I h a d C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: M a n y d e a l in g s ? Not many no. CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: 20 Ye s a n d h a v e y o u h a d a n y d e a l i n g s w i th h e r b e fo r e ? Ja. I m e a n t h e y w e r e j u s t a b o u t th e b u il d i n g a n d w it h th e p r o g r a m s o w n e d . . . [i n d is t in c t ] a n d t h e p r o g r a m w a s i n tr o d u c e d . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s a n d p r e v i o u s l y s h e h a d n e v e r t a lk e d a b o u t y o u n e e d i n g a n y p r o t e c ti o n ? MR HOLELE: No. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. T h e r e is s o m e i m p r o v e m e n t a t le a s t fr o m m y s id e . Page 43 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: I n f a c t it is b e t t e r f r o m m y s id e . Ye s , o k a y, l e t ’s s e e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w y o u g o to t h is m e e ti n g e x p e c ti n g t o s e e M s Shunnugan? MR HOLELE: Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h o a p p e a r s a t t h e m e e t in g o n b e h a l f o f Prodigy? MR HOLELE: S o M r R a k g o a t h e a n d .. . [ in d i s ti n c t ] w a l k i n to t h e B o a r d r o o m a n d Ms S h u n n u g a n w a s n o t th e r e t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s t h e r e 10 in s t e a d w a s M r R o y M o o d l e y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: D i d y o u k n o w Mr R o y M o o d l e y ? Ye s I d o . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: How did you come to know him? I k n e w h i m t h r o u g h y o u k n o w h i m b e i n g a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r a t P R A S A a n d e s p e c ia ll y t h r o u g h t h e Pr o d i g y w o r k , h e h a d b e e n y o u k n o w in th e b u s i n e s s , . . . [i n d i s t i n c t ] a t th e g r a d u a t i o n fu n c t i o n y o u k n o w a n d th e g r a d u a t i o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m j u s t g o i n g to a s k y o u t h i s , i n a n a ff i d a v i t t h a t M r M o l e f e m a d e h e s a y s t h a t p e o p l e r e f e r r e d to M r M o o d l e y a s t h e 20 o w n e r o f P R A S A , I w o u ld ju s t li k e y o u to c o m m e n t o n t h a t ? MR HOLELE: Ye s , I t h i n k g e n e r a l ly h e w a s k n o w n t o b e a v e r y in fl u e n t i a l p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: H e w a s k n o w n a s a n i n fl u e n ti a l p e r s o n . Ye s g e n e r a lly a m o n g s t s e n i o r p e o p l e e s p e c ia ll y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h is i s a t P R A S A . Page 44 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: Ye s a t P R A S A , a t P R A S A , n o a t P R A S A , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Is t h a t a v i e w t h a t y o u s h a r e t h a t h e w a s i n fl u e n t i a l at PRASA? MR HOLELE: Ye s , I d o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: W h y d id y o u th i n k h e w a s in f lu e n ti a l a t P R A S A ? H e w a s j u s t y o u k n o w t h r o u g h v a r i o u s c o n tr a c ts h e w o u ld b e t h e r e , h e w o u l d b e in t h e b u i l d i n g , fr o m t i m e t o t i m e a n d j u s t t h e m a n n e r i n w h i c h h e s u r r o u n d e d , h e w a s k n o w n to b e a n i n fl u e n t ia l person. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s . W e l l I w a n t t o g e t m o r e d e ta il s a b o u t t h a t , d i d y o u – to y o u r k n o w l e d g e w e r e t h e r e a n y d e c is i o n s th a t w e r e ta k e n a t P R A S A w h ic h h e i n fl u e n c e d in a n y w a y ? MR HOLELE: I w o u l d n ’ t h a v e d i r e c t k n o w l e d g e a b o u t t h a t C h a ir, b u t I k n e w t h a t th r o u g h th is c o n t r a c t , y o u k n o w h e w a s i n v o lv e d i n i t , i n a n d a r o u n d th e c o n tr a c t , I k n e w th a t h e a t t h e s e c u r it y c o m p a n y a n d j u s t t h e k n o w t h e m a n n e r in w h i c h w o u l d i n t e r a c t w i t h t h e b u s in e s s , v e r y f o r c e fu l . CHAIRPERSON: ( l a u g h i n g ) w h a t w a s i t, m u s t e m p l o y e e s w a i t a r o u n d , w h a t w a s h e d o i n g th a t m a d e y o u t h in k h e w a s i n fl u e n ti a l a t P R A S A , h e 20 w a s o n l y a s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r w a s n ’ t h e ? MR HOLELE: Ye s , CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: H e w a s a n o u ts id e r t o P R A S A ? Ye s h e w a s a n o u ts id e to P R A S A . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR HOLELE: Yo u k n o w th e c o n te x t a t t h e t i m e w a s s u c h t h a t j a h e Page 45 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 w o u ld y o u k n o w h e w o u l d b e i n t h e b u il d i n g fr o m t i m e t o t i m e , a n d h e . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: D id h e c l a i m t o b e t h e o w n e r o f P R A S A ? N o I . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: A s fa r a s y o u k n o w. No I have never heard him make such a claim. CHAIRPERSON: D i d h e c la i m t o b e i n fl u e n t ia l w i t h i n P R A S A , i s i t b e c a u s e m a y b e p e o p le h e a r d h i m s a y h e is in f lu e n ti a l , a n y t h i n g li k e t h a t . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] 10 MR HOLELE: N o t d ir e c tl y t o m e n o C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , y e s . H o w o f te n w o u l d h e b e a r o u n d a t P R A S A more or less? MR HOLELE: W e ll fr o m t i m e t o t i m e y o u w o u l d s e e h i m C h a ir, fr o m ti m e t o t i m e a n d l ik e I s a id y o u k n o w I s a w h i m a t a v e r y y o u k n o w I t h i n k t h e la u n c h o f t h e p r o g r a m m e o r t h e t r a i n in g a n d a t th e g r a d u a t io n f u n c t i o n a t . . . [i n d is t in c t] H o te l , a n d j a , s o h e a s k e d u s i n f r o n t a r e a . CHAIRPERSON: W a s h e e v e r o r d i d h e o f te n , w a s h e o f t e n a t a f u n c t i o n o r b a s e d i n P R A S A w h e r e h e w a s n o t s u p p o s e d to b e ? MR HOLELE: 20 W e l l r e m e m b e r i t is a p u b li c i n s t i tu t io n C h a ir, s o i t w o u ld b e d i ffic u l t t o s a y n o h e is n o t s u p p o s e d t o b e t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , b u t it m i g h t b e a p u b li c i n s t it u ti o n b u t I c a n ’ t ju s t w a lk in t h e r e a n d s i t i n t h e b o a r d r o o m . MR HOLELE: N o , n o , n o t i n t h e r e g a r d s b u t h e w i ll b e h a v i n g m e e ti n g s , w h ic h is n o r m a l in t h a t r e g a r d a s a s e r v i c e p r o v id e r s o th a t w o u ld b e n o r m a l b u t I a m s a y in g t h a t’s h o w y o u c o m e t o y o u k n o w o h Page 46 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 y o u s e e h i m a t t h e g r a d u a ti o n f u n c ti o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I f I c o u l d ju s t a s k f o r a s u m m a t i o n o f t h in g s , c o m p a r e d t o o t h e r s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s w a s h e m o r e p r o m i n e n t . MR HOLELE: Oh yes, much more prominent. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s , a n d w a s th e r e a n y b o d y e ls e w h o w a s a s p r o m in e n t a s h e w a s ? MR HOLELE: N o I c a n ’ t r e c a ll . CHAIRPERSON: 10 B u t w h e n y o u s a y h e w a s p r o m i n e n t a r e y o u s i m p ly t a lk in g a b o u t h is fr e q u e n t p r e s e n c e a t P R A S A ? MR HOLELE: Ye s , h i s p r e s e n c e th e r e . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: Ja. A n d n o t y o u k n o w lik e I s a id p r e s e n c e i n t h e s y m b o li s m o f p o w e r y o u k n o w . . . [i n d is t in c t . Yo u k n o w a t t h e g r a d u a ti o n h e w o u l d b e a ls o th e r e i n fr o n t, y o u k n o w, Yo u n o t ic e h i m y o u k n o w i t i s t h a t k in d o f s y m b o l is m o f a u t h o r i ty. CHAIRPERSON: I a m tr y in g to u n d e r s t a n d b e c a u s e y o u ’r e s a y in g a s f a r a s y o u k n o w h e d i d n ’ t c l a i m t o b e i n f lu e n t i a l g e n e r a l ly s p e a k i n g I guess. 20 MR HOLELE: B u t n o t d ir e c tly t o m e . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: N o t d ir e c tl y t o y o u ? Ye s , b u t y o u t h o u g h t t h a t o t h e r p e o p le n o t a s u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t h e w a s i n fl u e n t ia l a n d . . . [i n d is ti n c t ] i n a w a y h e w a s t h e o w n e r o f P R A S A . I w a s tr y i n g to u n d e r s t a n d h o w p e o p l e c a m e t o g iv e h i m t h o s e l a b e ls . Page 47 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: B e c a u s e l ik e s a id C h a ir b e c a u s e o f t h e m a n n e r h e carried and himself I mean th e m e e ti n g that we speak about . . .[ i n d is ti n c t – a u d i o f a u l t y ] CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: J a , ja . B u t t h a t w h i c h I th e n a ls o c o m e k n o w. CHAIRPERSON: Ye , o k a y, M r S o n ic A D V VA S S O N I S C : I n f a c t i t i s th e v e r y fir s t ti m e i n th is m e e ti n g th a t h e f o r m a lly t e l ls y o u a b o u t th e p o w e r h e h o l d s . 10 MR HOLELE: Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t l e t ’s h a v e t h a t c o m e f r o m y o u . Te ll u s a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g , y o u w e r e e x p e c ti n g s o m e b o d y .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ] A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: Ye s . . . . a n d h e w a s th e r e a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d . S o I w a s e x p e c ti n g Ms N e r i s h n i S h u n n u g a n , I e n te r e d t h e m e e ti n g w i t h M r J a c o b R a k g o a th e a n d w e w a lk e d i n t o th e boardroom and Ms Shunnugan wasn’t there and Mr Moodley was s e a te d , p r e s e n t i n t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: 20 A t t h a t ti m e d id y o u k n o w M r M o o d l e y t o b e associated in any way with Prodigy? MR HOLELE: Ye s I d i d . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: I d i d n ’ t r e a l ly k n o w a t t h a t t i m e w h a t h is p o s i ti o n w a s . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: H a d h e h a d a p o s i t io n a t Pr o d i g y ? Ye s . B u t h e w a s a s s o c i a te d w i t h Pr o d i g y. Page 48 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 CHAIRPERSON: W h e n y o u s a w h i m t h e r e d i d y o u i m m e d i a te ly t h i n k h e w o u l d b e t h e p e r s o n r e p r e s e n ti n g P r o d i g y b y v ir t u e o f w h a t o f t h e a s s o c i a t i o n y o u t h o u g h t h e h a d w i t h P r o d i g y. MR HOLELE: Ye s C h a ir, y e s , I k n e w t h a t b u t I w a s s t ill s h o c k e d th a t Ms Shunnugan was not there. CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: Ye s . M s S h u n n u g a n . Shunnugan, ja. CHAIRPERSON: H a d s h e to ld w h o w a s g o i n g t o r e p r e s e n t P r o d i g y a t t h e m e e ti n g ? 10 MR HOLELE: N o i t w a s m e a n t t o b e a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n P R A S A a n d h e r. CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: S h e d id n o t t e l l u s t h a t s h e w a s n o t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: Ye s , ja . W h a t w a s h e r p o s i ti o n a t Pr o d i g y ? I t h i n k s h e w a s m a n a g i n g d ir e c to r. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , o k a y a n d a s f a r a s Mr M o o d l e y w a s c o n c e r n e d y o u d id n ’t k n o w w h e th e r h e h a d a fo r m a l p o s i t io n a t P r o d i g y o r n o t? MR HOLELE: N o I d i d n ’ t k n o w C h a ir. CHAIRPERSON: 20 MR HOLELE: B u t y o u k n e w h e h a d a n a s s o c ia t io n w i t h P r o d i g y. Ye s , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a n d t h e n t h e m e e ti n g s ta r t e d , d i d y o u a s k a b o u t w h y t h e M D w a s n ’ t th e r e ? MR HOLELE: Ye s I d i d a c t u a ll y, I r e m e m b e r I d i d a s k w h e r e N e r i s h n i is a n d h e s a i d n o s h e is in a n o t h e r m e e t i n g s o m e w h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that. Page 49 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: H e s a i d s h e is in a n o t h e r m e e t in g s o m e w h e r e e l s e . CHAIRPERSON: MR HOLELE: O h , o k a y. So he is representing Prodigal. CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , t e ll u s a b o u t t h e c o n te x t o f t h e d is c u s s i o n a t t h e m e e ti n g . MR HOLELE: S o w e e x c h a n g e d p l e a s a n tr i e s C h a i r p e r s o n , m o r n in g , m o r n in g s ir, y o u k n o w h o w a r e y o u a n d I t h i n k a t le a s t I w a s t a k e n a b a c k s o y o u k n o w I n e e d e d to c o m p o s e m y s e l f a b i t a n d w e e x c h a n g e d p l e a s a n tr ie s a n d t h e n w e s a i d y e s w e a r e h e r e a n d h e s a id w e ll g u y s 10 y o u k n o w t h a t P R A S A o w e s u s m o n e y a n d y o u k n o w I h a v e c o m e to r e q u e s t t h a t y o u m a k e t h e p a y m e n ts t h a t a r e d u e t o P r o d ig y. D i d y o u . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: A t t h a t s t a g e h o w m u c h w e r e t h e y c l a i m in g w a s d u e t o t h e m fr o m P R A S A . MR HOLELE: I t h i n k it w a s a b o u t R 2 4 m ill io n o r s o , . . .[ i n d is ti n c t ] CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, s o h e s a i d th a t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: D i d h e m e n ti o n a fi g u r e a t th e m e e ti n g ? Ye s , h e w o u l d h a v e m e n ti o n e d th e fi g u r e I t h i n k , j a . AUDIO ENDS – NO ADJOURNMENT 20 C H A IR PER SO N : We a r e n o w b a c k . L o o ks lik e th e r e mig h t b e c h a lle n g es w ith th e te ch n ic ian s b u t th e y a r e b e in g a tte n d e d to a nd w e ar e g r a te fu l th a t a r r a n g e me n ts h a ve b e e n ma d e fo r u s to b e a b le to c o n tin u e . Ye s , th a n k y o u Mr So n i. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th a n k y o u so mu ch . Mr H o le le y o u we r e no w te llin g u s w ha t h a p p e ne d a t th e me e tin g w ith b e tw e en y ou a n d Page 50 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 Mr Mk w e w e a nd Mr Au d r e y. MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir p e rs o n s o as I h a v e s a id yo u k n ow w e g r ee te d a n d e v e n tu a lly g o t to th e p u r p o s e o f th e me e tin g a n d Mr Mo o d le y s a id h e w a s he r e to re s o lv e th e ma tte r o f th e p ay me n t th a t is d u e to Pr od ig y, mo r e o r le s s a b ou t 2 4 millio n r a n d a n d ja i t n e e d e d to b e d o n e . PR ASA n e e d e d to p a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : An d w h a t is y o u r wh a t w a s y o u r a ttitu d e to th e s ta n c e th a t th e r e is le g a l d is p u te th a t y o u mu s t p a y. MR HOLELE: 10 So w e ma d e i t c le a r, I s t a r te d a n d to ld h im th a t, b u t Mr Mo o d le y we a r e in c ou r t. PR ASA a n d Pr o d ig y ar e in c o u r t re g a rd in g th is ma tte r r e g a r d ing th is ma tte r a n d r e g ar din g th e v a lid ity o f th e c o n tr ac t a n d a s w e k n ow th e c o u r t p r o ce ss is u n d e r wa y, a n d a t th a t p o in t I s ig n a lle d to Mr. R a mp a th i, y o u k n o w w h o is le g a lly tr a in e d to ta k e o v e r th a t c o n v e rs a tio n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M R H O L E L E: An d w h a t d id h e s a y ? N o , Mr R a mp a th i th e n a ffir me d it in le g a l la n g u a g e th a t lo o k if – if y o u a r e s o in s is te n t, y o u r la w y e rs mu s t s p e a k to o u r la w y e rs to e x p lo re if y o u , b e c a u s e c le a r ly it lo o k s lik e y o u a r e lo o k in g fo r s o me s e ttle me n t. Yo u r la w y e rs mu s t b e in to u c h w ith o f o u r la w y e r s fo r th e tw o 20 p a r tie s th e n y o u kn o w to e x p lor e th e ma tte r fu r th e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : An d o n w h o m w as th e in itia tiv e to d o th o s e e x p lo ra to r y p ro c es s es ? MR HOLELE: We ll w e , it w a s th e n fr o m u s b e c a u s e Mr Mo o d le y w a s in s is tin g o n p a y men t. It w a s s a id in c o u r t, s o Mr Ra mp a th i th e n a ffir me d th a t th e o n ly o th e r ma k e w a y if th is th in g w o u ld r e lo o ke d d iffe r e n tly a s if Page 51 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 w e w e r e to p u t fo r w a r d so me s e ttle me n t p r op o s a l b u t in a le g a l fa s h io n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : So , it w a s u p to n o w Pr o d ig y a n d Mr Mo o d le y to ma k e th a t b o w. MR HOLELE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: So , I a m s o r r y. So , Mr Mo o d le y s a id h e w as th e r e to r e s o lv e th e is s u e o f p a y men t, is th a t r ig h t? MR HOLELE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t w a s h e n e g o tia tin g , n o c o mp r o mis e , o r w a s h e d e ma n d in g th a t th e w ho le a mo u n t th a t th e y b e lie v e d w a s d u e to th e m b e 10 p a id ? MR HOLELE: N o , h e w a s d e ma n d in g th e wh o le a mo u n t to b e p a id . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . O k a y. Yo u r – y o u r – y o u r mic r op h o n e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h a t w a s Mr. Mo o d le y ’s r e ac tio n to y o u r a s s er tio n o r Mr Mk w ew e ’s as s er tio n th a t, w e ll to g e t y o u r la wy e rs to ma k e a p r o p os a l to o u r la w y er s ? M R H O L E L E: It w a s lik e w e h a d no t s a id a ny th in g b e fo r e , Ch a ir, d is r e ga r d ed w h a t w a s s a id a n d h e k e p t o n a c c ep tin g th e d e ma n d fo r th e p a y me n t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 An d h o w d id y ou r es po n d to th a t c o n tin u e d d e ma n d fo r p a y me n t? W h e n I s a y y o u , I a m ta lk in g a b o u t y o u a n d Mr R a mp a th i. MR HOLELE: We k e p t o n in s is tin g th a t w e a r e in c o u r t. An y o th e r ma tte r w o u ld h a v e to b e a p r o p os a l fr o m h is la w y e rs to o u r la w y er s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : An d w a s it g e ttin g in t o a h e a te d me e tin g , o r w a s it fr ie n d ly, c o r d ia l? M R H O L E L E: Ve r y c a lm. Ve r y – v er y c a lm b u t b o th p a r tie s r e so lu tin g Page 52 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 th e ir p o s itio n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: Ev e n tu a lly [in te r v e n es ]. So u n d s lik e it w a s n o t n e g o tia tio n s it w a s y o u p ay n o w e w ill n o t p a y, y o u p a y n o w e w ill n o t p a y, is th a t r ig h t? MR HOLELE: I th in k th a t w o u ld h a v e ta k en a b o u t fif te e n min u te s o f th a t to a n d fr o . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: Th a t to a n d fr o in g . Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 An d a n y b o dy – w as a n y b od y ’s te mp e r th e n r a is ed a s a r e s u lt o f th e s e r e s o lu tio n s s es s ion s . M R H O L E L E: N o , th e – th e te mp e r w a s n o te mp e r w as r a ise d . Bu t a fir mn e s s c a me u p . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: A w h a t c a me u p ? A f ir mn e s s . C H A IR PER SO N: O h , y e s . O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : An d h o w w h a t h a p p e n ed n e x t th e n o f a n y s ig n ific a nc e ? M R H O L E L E: Mr Mo o d le y in a v e r y s te r n v o ic e lo ok e d a t u s a n d to ld us th a t lo o k g u y s a s y o u k n o w, n o n o t a s y o u k n o w, le t me k n o w th a t I a m 20 o n e o f th e to p fifte e n d e c is io n mak e rs in th is c o un tr y a nd y o u may h av e k n o wn o r y o u ma y h a v e h e a r d , y o u ma y h a v e s e e n , y o u ma y h a v e r e a d b ig c h a n g es a r e c o min g . Yo u b e tte r b e o n th e r ig h t s id e o f th o s e c h a n ge s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w w h e n h e ta lk e d a b o u t b ig c h a n g es d id , h e me n tio n a n y th in g a b o u t w h a t to ma k e h is n a tu r e o f th o s e c h a n g es w o u ld Page 53 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 be? MR HOLELE: N o , h e d id n o t C h a ir. Bu t th e n it w a s c le a r th a t h e w as ta lk in g g o v er n me n ta l c h a ng e s . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: Fe b r u a r y, Ma r c h 2 01 7 . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: By th e w a y w h e n w a s th is me e tin g ? Fe b r u a r y, Ma r ch 2 0 1 7 . 2017. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 N o w in y o u r a ffid a vit y o u s a y th a t h e me n tio n ed a n d imp e n d in g c ab in e t r e s hu ffle . MR HOLELE: Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: Is th a t w h a t y o u h a v e s a id ? Ye s . H e s a id in G o v e r n me nt. I t w a s e s s e n tia lly s a y in g to u s th a t y o u w o u ld h a v e re a d th a t, a n d y o u w o u ld h a v e h e ar d th a t b ig c h a n ge s a r e co min g in G o v e rn me n t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : So , y o u s a id th a t h e w o u ld h a ve s a id o r d id h e sa y th a t? MR HOLELE: H e s a id th a t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 M R H O L E L E: Ja. An d – a n d – a n d h e w e n t fu r th e r to sa y y o u kn o w th a t a t th e to p – th e to p o f th e c o u n tr y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: O f th e w h o le c o u n tr y. Ma y b e b e fo r e y o u p ro c ee d w h e n h e s a id b ig ch a n g es a r e c o ming , y o u s a y in y o ur u n de r s ta nd in g w a s th a t h e w a s ta lk in g a b ou t c h a n ge s in G o v er n me n t o r d id h e s ay th a t h i ms e lf? Page 54 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: H e s a id c h a n g es in G o v e rn me n t a t th e to p . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: Ye s , a n d w e u n d e r s to od th a t v e r y c lea r ly. C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: An d w h a t w a s y o u r u n de rs ta n d in g to w h a t th a t w a s ? To me a t th e c a b in e t le v e l. C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: At th e to p . At th e c a b in e t le v e l. Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: Bu t h e d id n o t me n tio n t h e c a b in e t h imse lf o r d id h e a ls o me n tio n it? 10 MR HOLELE: N o , h e s a id – h e s a id a t th e to p in G o v e r n me n t. C H A IR PER SO N: Th e to p . Ja. O k a y, in G o v e rn me n t. O k a y. D id yo u a s k h im a n y q u es tio n s to g e t mo r e d e ta ils a b o u t th e s e c h a n ge s ? MR HOLELE: N o , C h a ir. We w e r e ju s t s itt in g th e r e . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: Ye s , y o u w e r e s ur p r is e d . J a , w e w e r e s u r pr is ed . C H A IR PER SO N: J a . O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : on. N o w w e ll th is fo llo w in g u p fr o m w h a t th is is b a se d W h e n h e s a id h e is o n e o f th e f ifte e n to p d e c is io n ma k e rs in th e c o u n try. H o w d id y o u r e ac t to th is ? 20 MR HOLELE: We r e a c te d to it , C h a ir [in te r v e n es ]. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: L e t u s – le t u s ta lk a b o u t y o u . L o o k w e ju s t k e p t q u ie t. We ju s t lis te n e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h a t w a s y o u r in te r n al r e a c tio n ? MR HOLELE: We ll, it w a s – it w a s fe a r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Fe a r ? Page 55 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: D id y o u s a y y ou b e lie v ed h im? Ye s , I d id . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: D id y o u b e lie v e h im? W h y d id y o u b e lie v e h im? As I s a id e a r lie r C h a ir b eca u s e o f y o u k n ow th e p o s tu r e th a t w a s ta k e n be c a us e o f th e ta lk o f h o w imp o r ta n t h e is a n d no w h er e h e w a s – h e w as ju s t c o n fir min g a ll o f th a t – th a t k n o w le d g e . 10 C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. H e s a id th a t b i g c h a n g e s a r e g o in g to b e h a p p e n ing in , a t th e to p o f G o v e r n me n t. MR HOLELE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: An d w h a t e ls e d id h e s a y? An d th e n h e s a id , a n d y o u mu s t b e o n th e r ig h t s id e o f th o s e c h a ng e s . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: O h , o k a y. An d w h a t d id y o u u n d e rs ta n d th a t to me a n ? We ll I u n d e r s to o d it to me an w h a te ve r th e c h a n ge s a t th e to p o f u s w e do n o t w a n t to b e on th e w ron g s id e o f wh o ev e r may c o me in . 20 C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: To b e in c h a r g e . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: Ye s . An d in th is c a s e a t Min is te r ia l le v e l. C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: Ye s . At th is s ta g e w h o w a s th e Min is te r o f Tr a n s p o r t? I t w a s Min is te r D ip u o Pe te r s. Page 56 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Ye s , th a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : An d th is w a s e a r ly Ma r c h 2 01 7 it w a s th e b e g inn in g of 2017. C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s o r r y tw o th o u s an d an d ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: 2017. Ye s 2 0 1 7 . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C a n I a s k y o u th is , he ta lk e d a b o u t b ig c ha n g es in G o v e rn me n t d id h e s a y a ny th in g a b o u t a n y p o s s ib le c h a n ge s th a t p a s se d ? MR HOLELE: 10 Ye s , h e d id . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: W h a t d id h e s a y a b o u t it? H e b a s ic a lly sa id a n d th e n w h e n th o s e c ha n g es h a p p en , a n d th e y o u n g ma n w ill c o me b ac k . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M R H O L E L E: An d w h a t d id y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t to me a n ? We u n d e r s to o d it to me a n Mr Mo n ta n a w o u ld re c ur a s g r o u p C EO . C H A IR PER SO N: W h y d id y o u a s s oc ia te h is r e tu r ns to th e y o u n g ma n w o u ld c o me b ac k to Mr Mo n ta n a . MR HOLELE: I t w a s ju s t th e c o n te x t, C h a ir. So b a s ic a lly, a n d r e me mb e r me a s a n o ffic ia l w h e n e s s e n tia lly th o s e w e r e th r e a ts th a t w e r e 20 b e in g ma d e . An d it me a n s y o u k n o w w he n h e c o me s b ac k yo u h a d b e tte r n o t e n te r ta in it a n d s o a n d h e d id th is , th e y o u n g ma n w ill c o me b a ck . C H A IR PER SO N: So , d id h e s a y w h e n th e b ig c h a n g es th a t y o u w a s ta lk in g a b o u t h a p p e ne d th e y o u n g ma n w ou ld c o me b a ck ? MR HOLELE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: An d y o u r u n d e r s ta n d ing w a s th a t th e c h a n g e s h e w a s Page 57 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 ta lk in g a b o u t in c lu d e d a ch a n g e in te r ms o f th e Min is te r o f Tr a n s p o r t. MR HOLELE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w I ju s t w a n t to r a is e w ith y o u s o me th in g , if y o u k n o w th a t it is in th e fir s t w e e k o f Ma r c h 2 0 1 7 , th a t Min is te r D ip u o Pe te r s d is mis se d Mr Mo le fe ’s Bo a r d . Ar e y o u a w a re o f th a t? MR HOLELE: Ye s , I a m. A D V VA S S O N I S C : D id th is me e tin g ta k e p la c e b e fo r e th a t d is mis s a l o r a fte r th a t? 10 MR HOLELE: Th is to o k p la c e b e fo r e th a t. C H A IR PER SO N: N o w, w h e n Mr Mo o d le y s a id w h e n b ig c h a n g e s h a pp e n th e y o u n g ma n w o u ld c o me b ac k w h ic h y o u u n d e r s to o d to b e a r e fe r e nc e to Mr Mo n ta n a , w h a t w a s y o u r r e ac tio n to th a t? M R H O L E L E: We ll, my r e a c tio n to imp a ir lik e I s a id fir s tly w a s th a t in th e c o n v er s a tio n w e ke p t q u ie t w e d id n o t s a y a n y th in g . We ju s t lis te n e d to it. We ju s t s a t th e r e . C H A IR PER SO N: W h a t w a s yo u r u n d e rs ta n d in g as to Mr Mo n ta n a ’s d e p a r tu re fr o m PR ASA . Wa s it y o u r u n d e r sta n d in g th a t h e h a d le f t o f h is o w n a c c or d , h e h a d r e s ig n e d o r w a s it, w a s th e u n d e r s ta n d in g th a t h e h a d 20 le ft a g a in s t h is w ill o r h a d b e e n d is mis se d ? MR HOLELE: Fir s tly, fa c tu a lly C h a ir, my u n d e r s ta nd in g w as th a t h e h a d le ft o f h is o w n a c co r d , h e h ad r es ig n e d . But, o f c o u r s e a s a n Ex ec u tiv e I k n e w th a t th e r e w e r e c o n flic t a t th a t le v e l o f th e Bo a r d a n d w a s mo n ito r e d . C H A IR PER SO N: So w h e n Mr Mo o d ley s aid th e y o u ng ma n w ill c o me Page 58 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 b a c k w h e n th os e b ig ch a n g es h a pp e n d id th a t s u r p r is e yo u b e ar in min d th a t y o u r u n de r s ta nd in g w as th a t h e h a d left o f h is o w n a c co r d ? Or n o t r e a lly o r is it s o me th in g th a t y o u d id n o t ta k e a r e fle c t to th in k a b o u t? MR HOLELE: It d id n o t s u r p r is e me th a t h e w o u ld s a y s o me th in g lik e th a t. C H A IR PER SO N: M R H O L E L E: An d w h y d id it n o t s u r p r ise y o u ? L ik e I s a id b e c a us e o f th e p o s tu r e o r in flu e nc e a nd p o w er y o u k n ow th a t h e c o n d u c te d h ims e lf w ith th a t w e h a v e c o me to k n o w. So , h e w a s b a s ic a lly s a y in g lik e I h a v e s a id w e mu s t b e o n th e r ig h t s id e o f 10 a ll o f th e s e th in g s a n d y e s s o it d id n o t s u r pr is e me . C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s , d o y o u k n o w o n w h ic h s id e h e w a s g o in g to b e w h e n th a t h a p p e n e d? MR HOLELE: Sa y th a t a g a in C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: D id y o u k no w on w h ic h sid e h e w as g o ing to b e w he n th e b ig c h a n g es h a p p e ne d ? MR HOLELE: W h ic h s id e Mr Mo o d le y ? C H A IR PER SO N: Mr Mo o d le y. D id y o u k n ow o n w h ic h s id e h e wa s go in g to b e a n d wh e th e r it w as th e sa me s id e th a t h e w a n te d yo u to b e or d iffe r e n t s id e s ? 20 M R H O L E L E: N o , i t w a s c le ar th a t I n e e d e d to b e on h is s id e a nd Mr R a p h a ti w er e n e ed e d a nd c on tin u in g to re fu s e to p ay fo r it me a n t th a t w e a r e a g a ins t th a t s id e . C H A IR PER SO N: Okay A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w y o u d id n o t a g r e e to p ay Pr o d ig y a t th a t me e tin g , s ir ? Page 59 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: N o , w e d id n o t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : We r e y o u w illin g to th e n r is k b e in g o n th e w r on g s id e o f th e c h a n g e s th a t h e h a d fo r e s ch e d ule d in th a t me e tin g ? MR HOLELE: Ye s , I w a s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: d is p u te . An d w h y is th a t s o ? Be c a u s e it w a s a s imp le ma t te r a n d h e r e is a le g a l Th e ma tte r is in c o u r t. Th e p a p e r s a re b e fo r e c o u r t. We c e r ta in ly h ad , w o u ld n o t h a v e h a d th e w ay fo r w a r d g iv e n th e fa c t th e p a y me n t. 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w d e a lin g w ith , w e r e w e r e th er e a ny c ha n g es th a t c a me th r o u g h a fte r th e me e tin g ? MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: W h a t w a s th a t c h a n g e ? We ll a s - a s [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: I a m s o r r y b e fo r e th a t, h o w d id y ou r me e tin g w ith Mr Mo o d le y e n d ? MR HOLELE: Wa s ju s t th a t a d e a d e n d . A s ta le me n t. C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: 20 Wa s a s ta le me n t. J a , ju s t a s ta le me n t b e c a u se w e k e p t o n g o in g b a ck a n d fo r th a n d w e s tr u g g le d to th e n fin d o u r c o n c lu s io n to e v e n lo o k a t th in g s , lik e w e h a v e ex h a us te d th e e ffe c ts o f . .. [in t e r v e ne s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . We r e th e r e a ny a r g u men ts a d va n ce d by Mr Mo o d le y to tr y a n d p e r s u a d e y o u to p a y o r w a s it ju s t a s itu a tio n th a t h e w a s jus t d e ma n d in g th a t y ou p a y a n d you w e r e s a y ing n o th e r e is , w e a r e in c ou r t w e w o n ’t p a y n o w a nd th e r e w as n o mo tiv a tio n , n ew Page 60 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 a r g u me n ts th a t y o u h a d n o t h e a rd o r a n y th ing lik e th a t. MR HOLELE: N o , C h a ir, th e r e w a s n o n e w a r g u me n ts . C H A IR PER SO N: An d th e r e w a s mo tiv a tio n w h y it w o u ld b e a g o o d th in g fo r y o u to p a y ? M R H O L E L E: Ye s , I me a n h e ju s t in s is te d th a t y o u k n o w th e p ay me n t mu s t b e d o n e . It w a s ju s t th is in s is te n c e . C H A IR PER SO N: J a , b u t w h a t I a m a s k in g w a s w h e th e r in s u p po r t o f th a t in s is te n ce h e to ld y o u a ny th in g o th e r th a n th a t w h a t a p p e a r e d to b e a th r e a t? 10 MR HOLELE: No. No. C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s , o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : In o th e r w o r d s , it w as s imp ly a q u es tio n o f, I, R o y Mo o d le y s ay to y o u p ay th e r e fo r e y o u mu s t p a y. N o t b e c a u se th e mo n e y is d u e , n o t b e c a u s e y o u r d e fe nc e is fo r g e ry o r w h a t? MR HOLELE: Ye s , o f c o u r s e it w a s th o s e k in d s o f, I me a n th e k e y o n e th e n , w h ic h is w h a t th e y a r e a r gu in g th a t P R ASA o w e s th e m th is a mo u n t o f mo n e y. Th e s e in v o ic e s a r e d ue a n d p ay a b le . Yo u k n o w b ey o n d th a t n o th in g – n o th in g mo r e . C H A IR PER SO N: 20 We ll, I g u e s s th a t fr o m h i s p o in t o f v ie w th e mo n e y w as d u e to to . .. [in te r v e n e s ]. MR HOLELE: It w a s d u e a n d p a y f o r y e s . C H A IR PER SO N: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w in r e la tio n to the c h a ng e th a t Mr Mo o d ley h ad fo r e c as t a t th e me e tin g d id a n y th in g h a p p e n to in d ic a te th a t h is fo r e c a s t w a s c or r ec t? Page 61 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir m a n , i t h a p p e n e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: Pe te r s w as What happened? In d e e d , a s h a r p e n in g o f C ab in e t h a p p e n e d a nd Mr D ip u o r e mo ve d as our Min is te r of Tr a n s p or t and Mr J oe Ma s w a ng a n y i wa s a p p o in te d a s Min is te r o f Tr a ns p o r t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: R ig h t a b o u t h o w lo n g a fte r th e me e tin g ? L ik e I s a y it w a s me r e ly a c o u p le o f w e e k s to w a r ds th e e n d o f Ma r c h . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 An d w h e n th a t h a p p e n e d d id it s tr ik e y o u th a t h e r e is a p e r s o n wh o h a d a lr ea d y fo r ec a s t? MR HOLELE: Ye s , it d id . C H A IR PER SO N: Yo u s a y a c o u p le o f w e e k s I a m s u r e th a t th e a c tu a l d a te c a n b e fo u n d o f th e a n n o u n c e me n t o f th e c h a n g e s o th a t s h o u ld b e lo o k e d in to b u t y o u a r e c on fid e n t th a t fe w w e e k s? MR HOLELE: Of course. C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: J u s t a fe w w e e k s . J a , ju s t a c o u p le o f w e e k s b a c k th a t is w h y I a m s a y in g a me e tin g w o u ld h av e ha p p e ne d b e tw ee n e nd Fe b r u ar y be g in n in g Mar c h . Ar o u n d Fe b r ua r y, Ma rc h . 20 C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s . Ye s . O k a y. An d y o u th in k th e c a b in e t r e s h u ffle w a s s o me time in Ma r c h a ls o ? MR HOLELE: I t w a s th e e n d o f Ma r c h o r s o me th in g lik e th a t. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Mr C h a ir ma n th e w itn e s se s Mr. Mo le fe a nd Mr Ak h me d w ill te ll u s th a t i t h a p p e n e d a t th e e n d o f Ma r c h . Page 62 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 C H A IR PER SO N: It h a p p e n e d in Ma r c h . J a. O k a y. O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w c a n I ju s t a sk yo u s o me th in g s ligh tly d iffe r e n t a n d g o b ac k to th e is su e s y o u ra is e in you r a ffid a v it, w h ic h I s a y I w a s g o in g to r e fe r y o u to . N o w in r e la tio n t o Pr o d ig y to Mr D in g s w ay o ’s a ffid a v it th e r e is a tta c h e d a d o c u me n t w h ich I w o u ld lik e y o u to lo o k a t. It is BM( 3 ) . C H A IR PER SO N: G M( 3 ) . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: 10 MMD ( 3 ) . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: So r r y MMD ( 3 ) . Ye s . It is a n a n n e x u re to Mr D in g s w a yo ’s a ffid a v it. D id y o u s a y th e a n n ex u r e to Mr D in g s w a y o ’s a ffid a v it? A D V VA S S O N I S C : An d it a p p e a r s a t th a t th e to p e n d o f p a g e 4 3 Mr C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Th e r e a r e d iv id e rs ma r k ed o n e u p to e le v e n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s C h a ir it is th e o n e th a t is ma r k e d th r e e . An d th e n th e r e is , a n d th e o n e th a t is ma rk e d th re e w h e n I o p e n e d o n it th a t is p a g e 5 4 . I t is v e r y mu c h b e h in d ... [in te r v e n e s ]. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 N o . It s h o u ld b e p a ge 4 3 . So r r y Mr C ha ir, ma y b e I d id n o t fin d . .. [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: Is it in th e s a me b u n d le ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: SS( 8 ) . A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: It is SS( 8 ) . Ye s . An d w h a t is th e a n n e x u re? Page 63 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: Ye s , I h a v e g o t i t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: An n e x u r e MMD ( 3 ) . H a v e y o u g o t th a t Mr H o le le ? Ye s , C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: W h a t is th a t d o c u me n t? Th e h e a d in g , th e s u b je c t is Pilo t in g o f C e n tr e o f Ex c e lle nc e Mo d e l in L e a r n er s h ip Imp le me n ta tio n . C H A IR PER SO N: I th in k ju s t r e p e a t th at I d o n o t k n o w w h a t w a s h a p p e n ing ma y b e y ou a r e little fu r th e r fr o m th e mic r o p h o n e . 10 MR HOLELE: Ye s . C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: Ye s . J u s t r e p e a t w h a t it i s . Ye s . Th e s u b je c t is Pilotin g o f C e n tr e o f Ex ce lle n ce Mo d e l a n d L e a r ne r sh ip Imp le me n ta tio n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: An d fr o m w h ic h Fir m is th a t d o c u me n t? I t is fr o m Pr o d ig y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th is is th e s a me P r o d ig y w e h av e b e e n ta lk in g a b o u t? MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 N o w, w e n e e d n o t lo o k a t th e w h o le d o c u me n t b u t y o u w ill s e e r ig h t a t th e to p , s o r r y o n th e r ig h t h a n d c or n e r th e re is h a n d wr itin g , th e r e is ma n u s c r ip t in sc r ip tion o n th a t d o c u me n t. s e e th a t? MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: An d th a t is a d d r e s s e d to w h o m? Tir o a n d Mp e fo . Page 64 of 124 Do you 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: An d w h o is Tir o ? I t is my s e lf. A D V VA S S O N I S C : D id y o u s e e th is d o c u me n t a t th e ti me a b o u t th e time it w a s s e n t to y o u ? MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: W h a t d o e s th a t d o c u me n t s a y ? I f I r e c a ll I a m n o t ju s t g o in g to , I a m g o in g to r e a d A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . Ye s . N o – n o - n o s or ry w h a t d o es th e in s c r ip tio n s a y ? 10 MR HOLELE: Th e in s c r ip tio n s s h ou ld I r e a d it ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: Ye s . Ye s . It says, “Tir o Mp e fo th e p r o p o s a l fr o m Pr o d ig y is a c c ep te d . We s h o u ld e n te r in to a p a r tn e rs h ip w ith Pr o d ig y Bu s in e ss I th in k i t is So lu tio n s Pr o p e r ty L i mite d . We n e e d a fo r ma l MOU a t I th in k it is to th a t – to th is e ffe c t p le a s e p r e p a r e a le t te r fo r my s ig n a tu r e in a c c or d a nc e I c a n n o t r e a d th is my s ig na tu r e .” C H A IR PER SO N: 20 MR HOLELE: Th e s ig n a tu r e ... [in te r v e n e s ]. C H A IR PER SO N: MR HOLELE: R e c e ip t, is th a t n o t r e c e ipt a n d c o n fir m? O u r a c c e p ta nc e o f th e p r o p o s a l fr o m Pr o d ig y. Ye s , I ju s t c o u ld n o t s e e th a t s ig n a tu r e a n d r e c e ip t a n d ja . Bu t th a t is w h a t it s a y s C ha ir. C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w, th e r e is a s ig n a tu r e th e r e . W h o s e s ig n a tu r e Page 65 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 is th a t? MR HOLELE: Th a t is Mr Mo n ta n a ’s s ig n a tu r e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : MR HOLELE: An d w h o s e h a n d w r iting is th a t? I t is Mr Mo n ta n a ’s h a n d w r itin g . C H A IR PER SO N: Th e r e is a d a te a p p e a r in g th e r e , b u t th e y e a r d o e s n o t a p p e ar. Six . W h a t w o u ld b e th e y e a r ? MR HOLELE: I th in k it w o u ld b e 2 0 1 0 C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: It w a s th e s a me d a te a s th e d a te o f th e le t te r fr o m Pr o d ig y. 10 MR HOLELE: J a . It lo o k s lik e it. Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: Th e le tte r is a d d r e ss e d to Pa s s e n ge r Ra il Ag e n c y o f So u th Afr ic a . C a r e o f Mr Mp e fo a n d Mr L M o n ta n a . Is th a t r ig h t? MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir. C H A IR PER SO N: An d i t is fr o m N Sh a ma g u n D ir e c tor o f Pr o d ig y Bu s in e ss Se r v ice s ? MR HOLELE: Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w, in e s s e n c e w ha t d o e s th is le tte r c o n ta in in r e s p ec t o f p r ic e ? MR HOLELE: 20 I th in k if I r e c a ll th e le tte r. Th e le t te r w a s p r o p os in g a p a r tn e rs h ip b e twe e n Pr o d igy a n d PR ASA a n d I th in k a t th e b a c k o f th e p r o p os a l w as th a t Pr o d ig y h a d a rr a n ge d , ha d ma n a g e d to s e cu r e fu n d ing fr o m I th in k th e tr a n s p o r t SIC A a n d to b e i n p a r tn e r s h ip w ith PR ASA fo r th e fu n d in g o f th is o f th e le a r n e r s h ip . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w, Mr Mo n ta n a ’s n o te w o u ld s u g g e s t th a t h e w a s te llin g y o u to a c c e p t th e p r o p o sa l. Page 66 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir p e rs o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Wa s th is p r o p o s a l th e n a c c e p te d ? In o th e r w o r d s , d id y o u a c tio n it w h a t h e a s k e d? MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir p e rs o n C H A IR PER SO N: We ll – w e ll th a t s e n te n c e o n th e in s cr ip tio n s ay s th e p r o p os a l fr o m Pr o d ig y is a c c e p te d lik e h e w a s a c ce p tin g it a n d th e n h e w a n te d ce r ta in th in g s to be d o n e to g iv e e ffe c t to th e a c c e p ta nc e to th a t s e n te n ce . Is th a t y o u r u n d e rs ta n d in g? MR HOLELE: 10 Ye s , C h a ir A D V VA S S O N I S C : An d a s th e C h a irp e r s on h as p o in te d o u t th a t a c c ep ta n c e is ma d e o n th e v er y s a me d ay th a t th e p r o p o s a l is d a te . MR HOLELE: Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w is th a t w h a t g a v e b ir th to a s e r ie s o f Pr o d ig y c o n tr ac ts ? Th e r e w ill b e e v id e nc e a b ou t th a t? I a m ju s t a s k in g y o u to d o th e b e s t o f y o u r k n o w led g e . MR HOLELE: Ye s , C h a ir th a t is e x a c tly w ha t h a p p e n e d . A D V VA S S O N I SC: C h a ir p e r s o n I ju s t w a n t to p o in t o u t th a t Mr D in g s wa y o w ill d e a l w ith th a t w h e n h e c ome s to th is . C H A IR PER SO N: 20 Ye s , o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : An d o f c o u r s e , h e w il l d e a l w ith th e is s u e s r e la tin g to th e r e s is ta n c e to p a y me n ts . C H A IR PER SO N: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w, c o min g b a ck to a n o th e r ma tte r y o u r a ise d in y o u r a ffid a v it. C H A IR PER SO N: I see we are at one. Bu t if w e a r e n o t g o ing to ta k e Page 67 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 lo n g w e c o u ld try a n d fin ish w ith h im s o th at a fte r lu n c h w e de a l w ith th e n e x t w itn e s s . Bu t it d e p e n d s h ow lo n g y o u th in k y o u w ill s till b e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ma y I b e g u id e d b y y o u . Th e th o u g h ts I w a n t r e fe r th e w itn e s s to is to w h e r e h e s a ys , “I c a n r e a d th e a ffid a v it a n d I c a n c o n fir m w h a t is th e r e . It w o u ld b e u n fa ir t o b o th to y o u a n d th e w i tn e s s b y s a y ing w h y d o y ou c o n fir m it. I h a v e to t a k e in to e ffe c t a fe w m in u te s b u t mo r e imp o r ta n tly if y o u lo o k a t p a r a g r ap h 7 , a n d I w a n t to d e a l w ith th e ma n n e r in w h ic h Mr Mo n ta n a d e a lt w ith Mr H o le le . C H A IR PER SO N: 10 Bu t h o w mu c h time d o y o u n e e d ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : C H A IR PER SO N: I w o u ld s a y a t le a s t t w e n ty min u te s . O k a y, n o , I th in k if it is g o in g to ta k e tw e n ty min u te s le t u s ta k e th e lu n c h a d jou r n me n t a n d th e n you c a n c o n tin u e . We w ill ta k e th e lu n c h a d jo u r n me n t n o w a n d w e w ill r es ume a t 2 o ’c lo c k . We a d jo u r n . IN Q U IRY A DJ O U RN S INQUIRY RESUMES C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r S o n i , l e t u s p r o c e e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r H o l e l e , y o u m i g h t r e m e m b e r w e h a v e fi n is h e d n o w w i t h t h e m e e t i n g in F e b r u a r y a n d M a r c h . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t o n e m o m e n t M r S o n i . W h e n t h e li g h t s w e r e o ff 20 t h e r e w a s a l i g h t th a t c a m e th e r e th a t h e l p e d w i t h t h e l ig h ti n g h e r e . T h e t e c h n i c i a n s m u s t t r y a n d s e e w h e t h e r t h a t li g h t - i t is t h a t o n e r ig h t a t t h e t o p c a n n o t b e u s e d s o th a t w e h a v e b e t t e r l ig h ti n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: O r e v e n t h is s i d e . I d o n o t s e e C o m m is s i o n s t a ff h e r e . M a y b e s e n d a n S M S t h r o u g h a n d t h e n t h e t e c h n ic i a n s m u s t j u s t Page 68 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 s e e w h e t h e r w e c a n h a v e a n o t h e r l ig h t t h a t w i ll g iv e u s b e t te r l i g h t in g in t h is a r e a . Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m t o l d i t i s b e i n g a t te n d e d t o . Now Mr Holele can I now take you to paragraph 6 of your a ffi d a v i t w h e r e y o u r e fe r t o t h e a ff id a v i t o f M s N g o y e a n d M r D i n g is w a y o . N o w Mr D in g i s w a y o ’s a ffi d a v it w e h a v e a lr e a d y d e a l t w i t h b e c a u s e t h a t w a s t h a t l e d g e r th e Pr o d i g y l e d g e r y o u r e m e m b e r. M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y. N o w . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h e r e d o w e g o n o w ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : A t p a r a g r a p h 6 o f M r H o l e l e ’s a ff i d a v i t , C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : O f M r M o le f e ’s a ff i d a v i t ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o , M r M o le la . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr H o l e l e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r H o le l e ’s a ff id a v i t , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. By t h e w a y, w h a t p a g e w a s th a t o r u n d e r w h a t d iv i d e r w a s t h a t ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : U n d e r S S 1 0 . CHAIRPERSON: SS ... (intervenes) 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : 1 0 . CHAIRPERSON: N? A D V VA S S O N I S C : 1 0 . CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y. I t h i n k w h a t y o u s h o u l d d o a f t e r th is i s t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e d iv id e r s t h a t a r e m a r k e d S S a r e m o r e v i s i b l e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . Page 69 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y a r e o v e r s h a d o w e d b y th e r e d d iv i d e r s . S S 1 0 . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m j u s t d e v is i n g a s o lu t io n in m y m i n d M r C h a ir m a n a n d I t h i n k I k n o w w h a t I a m g o in g t o d o is a s k th a t t h e y b e p l a c e d a t th e to p o f t h e d o c u m e n t r a t h e r t h a n o n t h e s i d e . CHAIRPERSON: Mm. A D V VA S S O N I S C : B e c a u s e o n th e s id e w h a t y o u h a v e is th e Annexure numbers. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th a t is w h a t is c o n fu s i n g . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye a h . A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t a s s o o n a s w e f i n is h w i th to d a y, I w o u l d d o . . . ( in t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W h a t p a r a g r a p h o n Mr H o l e l e ’s , 7 ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : P a r a g r a p h 6 Mr C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o , w e h a v e d e a l t w it h M R D in g i s w a y o ’s a ff i d a v i t a n d y o u m i g h t r e m e m b e r M r H o l e l e , I r e f e r r e d y o u t o t h a t l e t te r fr o m Prodigy that Mr Montana asked you to act upon. M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : R i g h t . N o w I w a n t to d e a l w it h t h e a ffi d a v it o f M s N g o y e . I f i n d I th i n k th e r e a r e t w o r e f e r e n c e s t o y o u . M r C h a ir p e r s o n , M s N g o y e ’s a ff i d a v i t is S S 7 . I h a v e g i v e n y o u r ( i n d is ti n c t) a n i n d ic a ti o n o f w h e r e I w il l b e t a k in g M r H o l e le a n d o b v i o u s l y y o u r s e lf Mr C h a ir p e r s o n . Page 70 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l l e t u s a d m i t i t n o w t h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o r e f e r to it . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: T h e a ff id a v i t o f M s O n ic a M a r t h a N g o y e a n d i t is A n n e x u r e w i ll b e a d m i t te d a n d m a r k e d Ex h ib it a s S S 7 . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s y o u p l e a s e M r C h a ir p e r s o n . C h a ir p e r s o n , m a y I j u s t m a k e t h i s p o i n t s o w h e n y o u a r e c o n s id e r i n g m a t t e r y o u w il l k n o w t h a t i n fa c t t h e r e a r e tw o a ffi d a v i ts b y M s N g o y e . CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes. 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h is i s t h e s e c o n d o n e , t h e o n e m a d e i n F e b r u a r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S h e m a d e o n e i n S e p t e m b e r l a s t y e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m g o i n g t o c o m e t o th a t i n a m o m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t f o r n o w, I a m d e a li n g w i t h th e F e b r u a r y 2 0 2 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h e y a r e a l l i n th e s a m e fi l e ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e y a r e a ll in t h e s a m e fi l e . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, t h a n k y o u . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Thank you. M r H o l e l e , c a n I a s k y o u to t h e n p l e a s e t u r n to p a g e 2 8 2 o f th a t a ffi d a v i t ? T h e r e o n th e t o p r i g h t- h a n d corner in the red numbers. CHAIRPERSON: Yo u j u s t h a v e to k e e p o n s a y i n g o f E x h i b it S S 7 , s o t h e y r e a d o u t t h e tr a n s c r i p t w e w i ll k n o w w h ic h b u n d l e w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t. Page 71 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . The SS7 page 242. Have you got it Mr H o l e l e ? N o w y o u w il l s e e t h e r e in p a r a g r a p h 1 6 . 4 M s N g o y e s a y s ; I w a s s u m m o n e d to a m e e ti n g . . . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D id y o u s a y p a g e 2 4 2 ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : 2 8 2 . C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 8 2 . O k a y, t h a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i t i s p a r a g r a p h 1 6 .4 CHAIRPERSON: I have got it. A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o , s h e s a y s s h e w a s s u m m o n e d to a m e e ti n g w i t h 10 r e p r e s e n t a tiv e s o f S tr a w b e r r y W o r x . W h o is S tr a w b e r r y W o r x o r w h o w a s S tr a w b e r r y W o r x ? MR HOLELE: S t r a w b e r r y W o r x is a n o u t d o o r a d v e r ti s i n g c o m p a n y C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t h a d a c o n tr a c t t o d o P R A S A’s o u t d o o r a d v e r t is i n g w o r k . Th e y w ill - t h e a d v e r ti s i n g r i g h t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S h e s a y s a t t h i s m e e ti n g w a s a M r M a r a j a n d M r A s h v e e r D w a r ik a p e r s a d h a n d M r S e lv a n M o o d le y. D o y o u k n o w w h o Mr S e lv a n M o o d l e y is ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s , I d o C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h o i s h e ? 20 M R H O L E L E : H e is th e s o n o f Mr R o y M o o d l e y. C H A I R P E R S O N : H e i s Mr R o y M o o d le y ’s s o n ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w a s h e a s s o c i a t e d w i th S t r a w b e r r y W o r x ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s , h e w a s C h a ir. Page 72 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w t o t h e b e s t o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e , w a s Mr R o y M o o d l e y a s s o c ia t e d w i th S t r a w b e r r y fo r m e r ly ? M R H O L E L E : N o , I d o n o t k n o w. I k n o w S e lv a n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : H e s a y s , o n e o f t h e p e o p le a t th e - o r M s N g o y e s a y s , o n e o f t h e p e o p l e w h o w a s a t t h e m e e ti n g w a s y o u . M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u r e c a ll th is m e e t in g ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s , I d o C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y. S o ( i n d is t in c t ) fr o m p o in t o u t- p o i n te d o u t 10 t h a t y o u w e r e a t t h e m e e ti n g , w h a t s h e s a y s a n d t e l l t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h e t h e r y o u c o n fi r m w h a t M s N g o y e s a y s i n t h i s a ffi d a v i t b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t y o u h a v e d o n e i n p a r a g r a p h 8 o f y o u r a ff id a v i t. M R H O L E L E : It r e a d s ; T h e r e I w a s g iv e n i n s tr u c ti o n s b y t h e r e p r e s e n t a ti v e s o f S tr a w b e r r y W o r x o n h o w I o u g h t to m a n a g e t h e a d v e r t is i n g p o r t f o l i o a n d h o w I w a s e x p e c t e d to t a k e i n s tr u c t io n s fr o m them. A D V VA S S O N I S C : J u s t h o ld o n o n e m i n u te . Yo u w e r e p r e s e n t a t th is m e e ti n g ? 20 M R H O L E L E : Ye s , I w a s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h a t w a s y o u r r e a c ti o n to t h a t ? that happen? M R H O L E L E : Ye s , i t d id . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h a t w a s y o u r r e a c ti o n t o i t ? Page 73 of 124 B u t fir s t ly, d i d 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: I t w a s q u i te s h o c k i n g C h a i r b u t i t w a s - t h is o n e w a s a r e a l ly c o n f lic t u a l m e e ti n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : E x c u s e m e ? M R H O L E L E : A v e r y c o n fl ic t u a l m e e t i n g . S o , t h i s w a s r e a l te n s e a n d t o u g h m e e t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e l e t u s g o b a c k . H o w d i d y o u c o m e t o b e in t h is m e e ti n g ? MR HOLELE: B e c a u s e o f my r o le C h a i r p e r s o n a s y o u k n o w G r o u p C h i e f S tr a te g y O ffi c e r I p l a y e d - I w o u l d b e i n v o lv e d in a w h o l e r a n g e o f 10 d i ff e r e n t is s u e s th a t r e a ll y w e n t t o t h e h e a r t o f P R A S A s tr a te g y. So, t h e A d v e r tis i n g P o r t fo li o i n P R A S A w o u l d b e c o v e r e d b y u n d e r t h e s e c o n d a r y m a n d a t e a s g i v e n b y t h e L e g a l S u c c e s s i o n A c t. And the L e g a l S u c c e s s i o n A c t s a y s th a t th e a s s e ts t h a t P R A S A a p p l ie s , i t m u s t e x p l o i t t o g e n e r a t e r e v e n u e s o t h e A d v e r ti s i n g P o r t f o l i o w a s q u i te c e n tr a l to t h a t . S o a s H e a d o f S t r a t e g y I w o u l d e s p e c i a l ly w h e r e t h e r e w e r e d i ff ic u l ti e s I w o u ld g e n e r a l ly - I w o u l d g e n e r a l ly j u s t b e t h e r e . CHAIRPERSON: Now Ms Ngoye says she was summoned to the m e e ti n g . 20 M R H O L E L E : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Were you there because you had also been s u m m o n e d o r y o u w e r e in v i t e d t o t h e m e e t i n g a n d . . . ( i n te r v e n e s ) M R H O L E L E : N o , I- t h i s o n e I d o n o t r e c a ll C h a ir. C h a n c e a r e t h a t M s N g o y e h e r s e l f w o u l d h a v e in v i t e d m e t o t h i s m e e ti n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y, b u t y o u w e r e th e r e .. . ( i n t e r v e n e s ) Page 74 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 MR HOLELE: I was there. C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m t h e ti m e t h a t s h e w a s t h e r e u p to t h e ti m e e i th e r t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d . .. ( i n t e r v e n e s ) M R H O L E L E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O r w h e n s h e le f t , y o u le f t w i th h e r. M R H O L E L E : Ye s . Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . Yo u m a y c o n t in u e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : And then what happened next according to Ms Ngoye? 10 M R H O L E L E : I w a s e v e n t o l d th a t th e y h a v e th e p o w e r to r e m o v e t h e p o r t f o l i o fr o m I n t e r s i t e a n d h a d i n te n d e d t o d o s o b e c a u s e I c le a r ly d i d n o t k n o w w h a t I w a s d o i n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Just hold on there for a- where was Ms Ngoye based at that time? MR HOLELE: S h e w a s t h e C E O o f I n t e r s i t e A s s e t In v e s t m e n t s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h a t w a s t h is m e e t i n g a b o u t ? MR HOLELE: PRASA. 20 S o , t h e r e w a s li ti g a ti o n b e t w e e n P r i m e M e d i a a n d P r i m e M e d i a h a d t a k e n P R A S A t o c o u r t fo r h a v i n g - f o r t h e a w a r d o f t h e a d v e r ti s i n g c o n tr a c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h r o u g h S t r a w b e r r y W o r x ? MR HOLELE: T h r o u g h S tr a w b e r r y, n o , t h r o u g h - I t h i n k th e o t h e r company was Provantage. A n d S tr a w b e r r y W o r x w a s i n p a r t n e r s h i p w i t h Pr o v a n ta g e o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t. B u t t h e y w e r e a l l i n - o r t h e s e Page 75 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 w e r e th e n e w e n t i ti e s t h a t w e r e m a n a g i n g th e a d v e r ti s i n g p o r t f o l i o . P r i m e M e d i a h a d l o s t o u t o n t h a t c o n tr a c t . S o , t h e r e w a s l it i g a t io n b e t w e e n P r i m e M e d i a t a k i n g P R A S A t o c o u r t . N o w t h i s m e e t in g w a s a b o u t S t r a w b e r r y W o r x u n h a p p i n e s s w i t h h o w I n t e r s it e w a s f ir s t ly m a n a g i n g th e p o r t fo li o a n d h o w i t w a s m a n a g in g t h e li ti g a ti o n t h a t w a s th e p u r p o s e o f t h i s m e e t in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m in t e r e s t e d in t h e p o in t o f t h e l i ti g a t i o n - w e l l fir s tly t h e y s a i d t h a t t h e y h a d th e p o w e r t o r e m o v e t h e p o r t f o l io fr o m 10 I n t e r s i t e b e c a u s e M s N g o y e d i d n o t k n o w - a ll e g e d ly d id n o t k n o w w h a t s h e w a s d o i n g . W h a t w a s h e r r e s p o n s e t o it ? M R H O L E L E : M s N g o y e is a v e r y fe is ty p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is a v e r y ? MR HOLELE: Fe is ty p e r s o n a n d s h e to o k it o n a n d t h e m e e t in g - s h e f o u g h t l ik e a b u l l . It w a s ju s t c o n fli c t. S h e t o o k g r e a t e x c e p ti o n to t h o s e a s s e r t io n s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h a t d id s h e s a y t h e r e a t t h e m e e t in g ? C H A I R P E R S O N : O n e s e c o n d . I t h in k y o u m a y b e s ta n d i n g t o o f a r f r o m y o u r m ic . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m s o r r y. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d b e fo r e l u n c h t h e r e h a d b e e n a l o t o f i m p r o v e m e n t t h a t f r o m t h e w i t n e s s ’s s i d e b u t th e r e a r e c h a l le n g e s n o w a g a i n . I t m a y b e t h a t i t h a s g o t n o th i n g t o d o w i th y o u , m a y b e s o m e b o d y n e e d s to d o s o m e t h i n g t o th e m ic . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I w i ll j u s t … ( i n te r v e n e s ) Page 76 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 CHAIRPERSON: Just try again, ja. M R H O L E L E : W e l l s h e t o o k e x c e p ti o n t o t h is a s s e r ti o n a n d I- if I r e c a ll I t h in k s h e s a i d s h e d o e s n o t ta k e in s tr u c ti o n s fr o m t h e m . B u t s h e t o o k e x c e p ti o n a s w e ll f r o m h e r - th is p r o f e s s i o n a l c r e d i b i li ty t h a t h e r e s h e w a s b e i n g to ld t h a t s h e d o e s n o t k n o w w h a t s h e w a s d o in g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h a t a c li e n t w a s g o in g t o t e l l P R A S A h o w i t s h o u l d h a v e - h o w i t s h o u l d o v e r s e e th e c li e n t s w o r k . M R H O L E L E : Ye s , a n d s h e to o k g r e a t e x c e p t io n to t h a t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 T h e n y o u s a y t h a t t h e s e c o n d is s u e w a s t h a t S tr a w b e r r y W o r x a p p a r e n t ly w a s u n h a p p y w i t h t h e w a y P R A S A w a s h a n d l in g t h e li t i g a t io n . N o w M s N g o y e d e a ls w i t h th a t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 5 . W h a t h a p p e n e d in t h a t r e g a r d ? MR HOLELE: I think the demand by Strawberry Worx was that the la w y e r s s h o u l d b e c h a n g e d . Th e la w y e r s w h o w e r e p r e s e n ti n g P R A S A in t h is li ti g a ti o n s h o u l d b e c h a n g e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h o w e r e t h e l a w y e r s w h o w e r e r e p r e s e n ti n g PRASA then? M R H O L E L E : It w a s H o g a n L o v e l ls . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 N o w th e n I t h i n k ju s t d e a li n g w i t h th a t p o i n t a s k y o u t o tu r n t o t h e n e x t p a g e a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 .6 . MR HOLELE: Records. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N g o y e t h e n d e s c r i b e s w h a t h a p p e n e d a s a r e s u l t o f S t r a w b e r r y ’s u n h a p p i n e s s . W h a t d o e s s h e s a y h a p p e n ? If y o u l o o k a t h a l f w a y d o w n t h a t p a r a g r a p h , “ h o w e v e r in M a y o r J u n e 2 0 1 3 ” . M R H O L E L E : S h o u ld I r e a d t h is ? Page 77 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . M R H O L E L E : H o w e v e r, i n M a y o r J u n e 2 0 1 3 t h e p o r t fo li o w a s m o v e d fr o m I n t e r s i t e t o P R A S A a n d H o g a n L o v e l ls w e r e p r o m p tly fr o m t h e b r i e f b y th e s p e c i a l le g a l a d v i s o r i n t h e removed o ffic e o f th e G r o u p C E O M s M e l a n i e N a id o o a n d r e p la c e d w i t h a d i ffe r e n t f ir m . T h e l a s t a t t o r n e y s w h o h a n d l e d th e m a t t e r w a s M a r a j A t t o r n e y s w h o in c i d e n t a l ly h a p p e n e d t o a l s o b e a t t o r n e y s o f r e c o r d o f S t r a w b e r r y Worx. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C a n I j u s t a s k y o u to g o b a c k t o p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 4 . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : S o j u s t b e f o r e t h a t M r S o n i . S o , t h e m e e t in g th a t y o u w e r e te s ti fy in g a b o u t a f e w m i n u t e s a g o i n c l u d e d S tr a w b e r r y W o r x a n d M r S e lv a n M o o d le y w h o y o u s a id i s Mr R o y M o o d l e y ’s s o n . Is that r ig h t ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a t th a t m e e t in g th e s e p e o p le i n c l u d i n g M r S e lv a n M o o d l e y w e r e d e m a n d i n g t h a t t h e la w fir m th a t P R A S A w a s u s i n g a t th e ti m e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) M R H O L E L E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S h o u ld b e fir e d a n d a n o t h e r f ir m s h o u l d b e a p p o i n t e d 20 for PRASA. Is that right? M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d M s N g o y e r e s i s te d t h a t . M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. Page 78 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 CHAIRPERSON: B u t n o w w h e n y o u r e a d t h e 1 5 .6 , s h e s a y s in J u n e 2 0 1 3 t h e p o r t f o l io w a s m o v e d fr o m In t e r s i t e w h ic h is w h e r e M s N g o y e was in charge. Is that right? M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . CHAIRPERSON: To P R A S A a n d t h e n H o g a n L o v e l ls w e r e r e m o v e d a s a tt o r n e y s f o r P R A S A . I s t h a t r i g h t ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s , t h a t is w h a t s h e s a y s . CHAIRPERSON: A n d t h e n i n th e ir p l a c e t h e M a r a j A t t o r n e y s w e r e a p p o i n t e d a n d t h e y h a p p e n to b e a t t o r n e y s a c c o r d i n g t o M s N g o y e o f 10 a ls o o f S t r a w b e r r y W o r x . M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w a t 1 5 . 4 i n t h e s e c o n d li n e M s N g o y e s a y s t h a t there was a Mr Maraj present. I s th is s a m e a t t o r n e y t h a t r e p l a c e d S tr a w b e r r y - I m e a n t h a t r e p l a c e d H o g a n L o v e l ls ? MR HOLELE: I i m a g in e i t w o u l d b e . C h a ir, I c a n n o t r e c a l l th e c h a r a c te r s b u t I i m a g i n e i t w o u l d b e h i m . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n y w a y s … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : E it h e r i t m a y o r m a y n o t b e d e p e n d i n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M s N g o y e w i ll c o m e a n d s a y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s h e w o u l d te s ti fy t o t h a t . O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e n c a n I a s k y o u … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u - a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y t h a t s h e w il l s a y i t i s t h e s a m e a tt o r n e y ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. Page 79 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : paragraph 15.8? A n d th e n c a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 2 8 4 a t O h s o r r y, c a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n t o p a g e 2 8 5 a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 .1 0 ? A n d t h e n t h e e n c l o s i n g s e n te n c e s o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h s h e t a lk s a b o u t a m e e t in g . I t s a y s s h e a s k e d f o r a m e e t in g w it h a ll th e r e l e v a n t p a r ti e s r e l a t i n g to M r M o n t a n a , S tr a w b e r r y W o r x a n d s o o n is p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e t in g w h e r e M s Z i n d e , M s N a i d o o , M r H o l e l e , M r M o n ta n a a n d my s e l f . Yo u s e e t h a t ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s , I d o . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Yo u r e c a ll t h a t m e e ti n g ? 10 M R H O L E L E : Ye s , I d o . A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y. N o w w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th is m e e ti n g ? M R H O L E L E : Th e - i f I r e c a l l t h e m a t te r w a s m e a n t t o b e - th e m a t t e r o f t h is c o n f lic t w a s m e a n t t o b e d is c u s s e d a n d t h e m e e ti n g d e t e r i o r a t e d v e r y f a s t b e c a u s e M r M o n t a n a a s s e r te d t h a t M s N g o y e a n d e s p e c i a l ly m e s h o u l d h a v e fo ll o w e d h is in s t r u c t i o n s t o a c t u a lly r e m o v e t h e a d v e r t is in g p o r t f o l io fr o m In t e r s i te . And that this problem would not h a v e a r is e n if I f o ll o w e d t h a t in s t r u c t i o n . A n d I a c tu a l ly i f I r e c a l l t h e in s t r u c ti o n w a s g iv e n w h e n I w a s a t s o m e p o i n t A c t i n g G r o u p C E O a n d Mr M o n t a n a w a s a w a y f o r o n e 20 t h i n g o r th e o th e r. A n d I w a s g iv e n th i s in s t r u c t i o n t h r o u g h I t h i n k S tr a w b e r r y W o r x o r t h r o u g h M s N g o y e t h a t t h i s t h i n g h a d c o m e u p a n d I n e e d to r e m o v e t h e p o r t f o l io . I t h i n k M r M o n ta n a a c tu a lly c a ll e d m e a n d I d i d n o t b e c a u s e I n te r s i t e is a s e p a r a te c o m p a n y. I t h a s a b o a r d a n d I w a s s i m p ly A c ti n g a s G r o u p C E O s o w e d id n o t d o i t a t th e ti m e . S o , t h i s r e fl e c t s - t h i s p o i n t t h a t is m a d e h e r e b y Ms N g o y e r e f le c t t h a t Page 80 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 d e t a i l t h a t h a d w e fo ll o w e d th a t i n s tr u c ti o n , w e w o u ld n o t b e s it t in g i n t h is m e e ti n g w i th t h i s p r o b l e m . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i t in d i c a t e d th a t h e w a s u n h a p p y - M r M o n t a n a w a s u n h a p p y th a t y o u a n d M s N g o y e h a d n o t c a r r i e d o u t h is i n s tr u c t io n . M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e n I th e n a s k y o u t o l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 1 3 a t p a g e 2 6 8 , i t is o n t h e f o ll o w i n g p a g e . CHAIRPERSON: 286. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 2 8 6 y e s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I t i s p a r a g r a p h 1 5 . 1 3 M r C h a ir p e r s o n , y e s . Now as a result of all of this Ms Ngoye says that Mr Montana t h e r e a f te r d i s m is s e d Mr - o h s o r r y, s u s p e n d e d M r M a r ti n C h a u k e . M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d i t w a s a l l o v e r th e f a c t t h a t y o u a n d M s N g o y e h a d n o t c a r r i e d o u t h i s i n s tr u c ti o n s . MR HOLELE: Ye s . T h e d e t a i ls r e g a r d i n g th is is t h a t a t t h i s m e e t i n g t h e r e w a s s o m e m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g o n th e p a r t o f M s N a i d o o o f e m a i l c o m m u n ic a ti o n b e t w e e n M r C h a u k e w h o w a s th e a c t u a l t h e n P o r t f o l i o 20 M a n a g e r, h i g h ly e x p e r i e n c e d s k il le d a d v e r ti s i n g p r o f e s s io n a l e m p lo y e d by PRASA. M r C h a u k e w a s c o m m u n i c a t in g w i th t h e P R A S A la w y e r s H o g a n L o v e ll - I w il l n o t to c a ll i t d e t a i ls . PRASA lawyers around s tr a t e g y H e w a s c o m m u n ic a ti n g w it h t h e in t h is li t ig a ti o n . Ms Naidoo m is u n d e r s t o o d w h a t e v e r t h a t c o m m u n ic a ti o n w a s a n d in f o r m e d Mr Page 81 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 M o n ta n a th a t M r C h a u k e w a s a c tu a lly s tr a te g i z i n g w i th t h e l a w y e r s o f t h e o p p o s i ti o n a n d h e h a d g o tt e n i t w r o n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d h e s u s p e n d e d M r C h a u k e . MR HOLELE: Ye s . Mr C h a u k e h a d t o b e s u s p e n d e d t h a t s a m e evening. A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t M r C h a u k e h a d h a d n o t h i n g to d o w i th d e fy in g h is in s tr u c ti o n s . MR HOLELE: Ye s . B u t i f h e w a s b e in g a c c u s e d o f w o r k i n g w i t h t h e la w y e r s o f t h e o p p o s it i o n , i t w a s r e a d i n t h a t c o n t e x t th a t h e w a s p a r t 10 o f t h i s d e fi a n c e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w M s N a i d o o w a s h is p e r s o n a l l a w y e r - I m e a n w a s t h e l a w y e r i n Mr M o n t a n a ’s o ffic e a t t h e t i m e . A m I c o r r e c t ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w c a n I n o w a s k y o u t o k e e p o n S S 7 b u t t u r n t o page 46? C h a ir p e r s o n t h is n o w i s t h e f ir s t a ff i d a v i t th a t Ms N g o y e a d m i t t e d , t h e o n e fr o m S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 9 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Yo u s a y p a g e 4 6 ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : P a g e 4 6 , y e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w i f I c o u l d j u s t a s k y o u t o l o o k a t t h e fi r s t f u l l paragraph on page 46. Have you got it? 46 yes. M R H O L E L E : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : H a v e y o u g o t i t? MR HOLELE: I have got it. Page 82 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ms N g o y e i n h e r c a p a c i t y a s L e g a l H e a d R is k a n d C o m p l ia n c e d e c l i n e t o c l e a r th e le t t e r t h e D B S A s o o n a f te r t h is is is s u e d a n d s e r v e d , r e c e iv e d t h i s a d v i c e f r o m t h e le g a l d e p a r t m e n t N g o y e w a s p u t o n s p e c i a l l e a v e t o g e t h e r w i t h Tir o H o le le a n E x e c u t iv e r e s p o n s i b l e fo r S t r a t e g y i n th e o ffic e o f t h e C E O . Yo u r e c a l l t h is ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w t h i s o b v io u s ly h a p p e n e d a ft e r M r M o n t a n a . M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y. B u t I ju s t w a n t t o p o i n t o u t t h a t e ffe c t iv e l y 10 it l o o k s l ik e t h e s a m e c u l t u r e d e m a n d s w h e n a d e c is io n is r e s i s te d , t h e n th e p e r s o n i s p u t o n s u s p e n s i o n o r d i s mi s s e d . M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : L e t u s j u s t fi n a l iz e y o u r a ffi d a v i t n o w Mr H o l e le . A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 7 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u s a y y o u w a n t t o in f o r m t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th r e e i n c i d e n ts in v o lv in g y o u r s e l f . A n d y o u p u t th e m o u t a s 7 . 1 , 7 . 2 th e n 7 . 3 M R H O L E L E : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) CHAIRPERSON: Hang on one second. 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y, th a t i s n o w S S 1 0 p a g e 2 , Mr H o l e l e ’s a ffi d a v i t . In t o t h e r e c o r d S S 1 0 M r H o le l e a n d p a r a g r a p h - p a g e 2 . M R H O L E L E : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o , y o u s a y t h a t o n a n u m b e r o f o c c a s i o n s th e r e w e r e v e r b a l a b u s e fr o m M r M o n t a n a t o w a r d s y o u . M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. Page 83 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e n y o u s a y th a t i n 7 .1 M r M o n t a n a a c c u s e d y o u o f l e a k i n g in f o r m a t io n to t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r. M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W a s th is d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d w h e n s h e w a s c o m p il in g a r e p o r t w h i c h la t e r e m e r g e d a s t h e “ D e r a i le d ” r e p o r t ? M R H O L E L E : Ye s C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h a t d id M r M o n ta n a d o b a s e d o n t h o s e a l le g a ti o n s ? M R H O L E L E : W e ll I w a s a s I s a y h e r e j u s t a c c u s e d o f t h i s a n d I w a s 10 t h e n d e m o t e d C h a ir p e r s o n a n d r e m o v e d f r o m t h e r o l e o f G r o u p C h ie f S tr a t e g y O ffic e r a n d I w a s s e n t to I n te r s i t e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W a s a n y h e a r i n g h e l d ? M R H O L E L E : N o n o t h in g . N o h e a r i n g , n o t h i n g . CHAIRPERSON: W h a t w a s th e r e a s o n t h a t w a s g i v e n t o y o u f o r y o u r demotion? M R H O L E L E : S o , a s w e s a y C h a ir it w a s a c u l m i n a ti o n o f a n u m b e r o f t h e s e p r o b l e m s . T h e s e r e l a t i o n s b e c o m i n g r e a ll y d i ffi c u l t b e t w e e n m e a n d m y s u p e r v is o r, Mr M o n t a n a … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u s u p e r v is o r b e i n g ? 20 M R H O L E L E : Mr M o n t a n a . CHAIRPERSON: Okay mm. MR HOLELE: A n d I m e a n t h e A d v e r tis i n g P o r t f o l io is o n e o f t h e m , i t w a s a r e a l ly b i g o n e t h a t , “ y o u k n o w, I g iv e y o u i n s tr u c t io n s a n d y o u s e c o n d g u e s s m e . ” A n d t h e n i t w a s t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r i s s u e b e c a u s e w e w e r e c o m p i li n g r e s p o n s e s t o t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r a n d Mr M o n t a n a Page 84 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 w a s v e r y u n h a p p y a b o u t o u r c o m p i la t io n . A n d t h e n a g a i n t h e n fr o m t h e r e , “y o u h a v e le a k e d i n f o r m a t io n to th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r ” . S o , i t w a s a c u l m i n a t io n o f ju s t b a d r e la t io n s a t th e w o r k p l a c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t t h o s e w e r e t h e r e a s o n s f o r y o u r d e m o ti o n a s w e l l as you saw them? M R H O L E L E : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e te ll y o u w h a t t h e r e a s o n w a s ? M R H O L E L E : T h is w e r e a ll t h e a l l e g a ti o n s t h a t h e r a is e d . W e d id h a v e a m e e ti n g a n d i n t h e - w e l l b e fo r e th e a c t u a l d e m o t io n a n d in th e f o r m a l 10 m e e ti n g h e w a s , “y o u k n o w l o o k , t h i n g s a r e n o lo n g e r w o r k i n g o k a y between you and me. W e m u s t l o o k a t a d i ffe r e n t p la c e f o r y o u . ” A g a i n , m a y b e a s s ti ll a s I w a s w a i ti n g , a w e e k o r t w o l a te r I w a s t h e n a g a in t o l d t h a t , “ I t lo o k s l ik e y o u a r e g o i n g t o b e r e m o v e d a n d p r i m a r ily o n t h i s is s u e o f t h e le a k i n g o f i n f o r m a t i o n t o t h e P u b li c Pr o te c to r ” . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d h e s p e c i f ic a ll y g a v e y o u t h a t a s t h e r e a s o n f o r y o u r b e in g … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) MR HOLELE: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir m a n , m a y I o n t h a t p o i n t m a k e t h is p o i n t t h a t w h e n w e g e t to t h e r e p o r t o f t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r t h r o u g h M r 20 M o le f e a n d M r A h m a d , y o u w il l s e e th a t th e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r c o m p l a in s that there was no c o o p e r a ti o n , d o c u m e n ts were not provided, in c o m p l e t e d o c u m e n t s b u t f u r t h e r m o r e w e w i ll g iv e th e d e ta ils . B u t i t is q u i te s ig n if ic a n t th a t M r H o le le b e c a u s e h e is i n s o m e w a y c o o p e r a ti n g w i t h t h e P u b li c Pr o te c to r b a s i s Mr M o n t a n a a s w e ll . Page 85 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 C h a ir m a n , s u b j e c t to a n y t h i n g th a t y o u m a y w a n t fr o m t h is w i t n e s s ( in d i s ti n c t) . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o , t h a t is fi n e . Yo u a r e d o n e ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m d o n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e d o n e . T h a n k y o u Mr H o l e l e . MR HOLELE: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: I f a n e e d a r is e s , w e w i ll a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k b u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d . M R H O L E L E : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir. 10 CHAIRPERSON: Th a n k y o u . Fo r t h e n e x t w i t n e s s I w o n d e r w h e th e r t h e r e is a c h a n c e t o c h a n g e a n d le t h i m s i t m u c h f u r t h e r m a y b e t h a t w e c o n tr i b u t e t o m e h e a r i n g w h a t t h e y s a y c le a r l y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . P e r h a p s h e s h o u l d s i t h e r e t h e n . C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s , b e c a u s e I c a n h e a r y o u q u i t e w e l l b u t I h a v e b e e n s tr u g g li n g . S o m a y b e i t is t h e d is t a n c e , th e f u r t h e r s o m e b o d y is fr o m t h e b e t t e r m a y b e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: B u t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t is g o i n g t o b e e a s y a n d p r o b a b ly w h e t h e r i t w ill n e e d a n y a d j o u r n m e n t . B u t I s e e th a t th e 20 m ic th a t M r H o l e le w a s u s in g h a s a b a s e . A n d I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h a t r e m o v e i t w il l b e t a k e n to th e e n d o f t h e , w h e r e t h e w i t n e s s w i ll b e o r w h e t h e r t h e y w o u l d n e e d a n o t h e r o n e . M a y b e M r S o n i y o u c a n ta lk t o t h e t e c h n ic i a n s t o s e e w h e t h e r w e … ( i n t e r v e n e s ) A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . Page 86 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 CHAIRPERSON: That they would need or should we adjourn for a short ti m e ? J a , I t h i n k le t u s ta k e a s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t t o … ( in t e r v e n e s ) A D V VA S S O N I S C : I a m s o r r y C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : A ll o w e v e r y th i n g to b e s o r t e d o u t . W e w il l t a k e a 5 minutes adjournment. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 5 m i n u t e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES 10 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s M r S o n i , y o u r mi c is n o t o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : As you please. T h e n e x t w i t n e s s is g o in g t o b e M r M a k w a n t a l a [? ] J a c o b R a k g o a t h e . H is a ffi d a v it is . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] CHAIRPERSON: I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e y w e r e g o in g t o t r y s o m e t h i n g e ls e , d i d th e te c h n ic i a n s a y i t w a s n o t g o i n g t o w o r k ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : It c o u l d n ’ t w o r k b e c a u s e n o n e o f t h e o t h e r s a r e a c ti v e . CHAIRPERSON: . . . [ In d is ti n c t ] o r a r e a c ti v e ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: 20 Ye s . A n d w h a t n e e d s t o b e d o n e t o m a k e t h e m a c t iv e . I t h i n k R e v e r e n d S t a m e l a w a n ts t o te ll y o u s o m e th i n g , u n l e s s t h e t e c h n ic ia n s t e l l m e t h a t i t w o n ’ t m a k e a d i ff e r e n c e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Fo r t o d a y t h e y h a v e s u g g e s t e d th e y h a v e a d j u s te d t h e m ic a n d t h e y w il l a t t e n d t o t h i s t o m o r r o w b e c a u s e i t n e e d s a n a c t iv a t i o n p r o c e s s d o n e . CHAIRPERSON: O h w h ic h i s n o t p o s s i b l e to d a y. Page 87 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: I t c a n ’ t b e d o n e t o d a y. . . . [ I n d is t in c t – r e c o r d i n g b r e a k in g u p ] b u t is t h is s u p p o s e d to b e b e tt e r n o w. A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: O k a y, a lr i g h t l e t’s s e e . O k a y w e c a n c o n ti n u e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: REGISTRAR: WITNESS: 10 T h a t ’s w h a t t h e t e c h n ic i a n s s a y. F in e , c a n t h e w it n e s s b e s w o r n i n . Pl e a s e a d m i n is t e r t h e o a th o r a ff ir m a t io n . P le a s e s t a t e y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d . M y n a m e i s . . . [ In d is ti n c t ] J a c o b R a k g o a t h e . REGISTRAR: D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d oath? WITNESS: No. REGISTRAR: D o y o u c o n s i d e r th e o a th t o b e b i n d i n g o n y o u r conscience? WITNESS: I do. REGISTRAR: D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u w i ll g i v e w il l b e tr u th , t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th in g e ls e b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a i s e your right hand and say so help me God. WITNESS: 20 S o h e lp m e G o d . J A C O B R A K G O AT H E : CHAIRPERSON: ( d ul y s w o r n, s t a t e s ) Th a n k y o u , y o u m a y b e s e a te d . Ye s M r S o n i ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s i t p l e a s e s M r C h a ir p e r s o n . M r R a k g o a t h e in fr o n t o f y o u i s a d o c u m e n t h e a d e d A ffi d a v it , y o u r e c o g n is e t h a t document? M R R A K G O AT H E : I d o s ir. Page 88 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 CHAIRPERSON: W e l l f ir s t i s t h e d o c u m e n t n o t in th e s a m e b u n d l e that we were using? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: I t h i n k [i n d i s t i n c t ] s t a t e th a t f o r w h o e v e r is t h e tr a n s c r ib e r s t h e y k n o w w e ’r e s ti ll u s in g th e s a m e b u n d l e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s , a n d is t h a t d o c u m e n t o n t h e t o p r ig h t h a n d c o r n e r m a r k e d S S 11 ? M R R A K G O AT H E : CHAIRPERSON: 10 Correct. T h e fi l e – t h i s w it n e s s e s ’ a ff id a v i t is o n p a g e – i n t h e s a m e b u n d l e t h a t w e w e r e u s i n g e a r l ie r o n i n r e s p e c t o f M r K o d e l a ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t c o n t a in s E x h i b i t S S 7 , S S 8 , S S 9 , S S 1 0 , S S 11 , S S 1 2 , y e s thank you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir m a n b e fo r e I s t a r t d a b b li n g [i n d is t in c t] f o r M o o d le y a n d p r o d i g y w i s h t o p la c e s o m e s tu ff o n r e c o r d . CHAIRPERSON: O h – j a p le a s e c o m e t h r o u g h , I t h o u g h t w e h a d d o n e t h a t , o h t h a t m i g h t i n v o lv e s o m e b o d y e ls e ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: T h a t w a s t h e p r e v io u s w i t n e s s [i n d i s t i n c t ]. N o w e d o n ’ t h a v e t o g e t y o u to p la c e y o u r s e lf o n r e c o r d fo r e a c h o n e u n l e s s y o u – t h e r e is s o m e a d d i ti o n a l p e r s o n y o u 20 r e p r e s e n t i n r e g a r d t o w h o m y o u d i d n ’ t p l a c e y o u r s e l f o n r e c o r d , i f i t ’s t h e s a m e p e o p l e i t ’s fi n e . UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I w i l l l e a v e it w i th t h e s a m e r e s e r v a t io n a s w i th a l l t h e w i tn e s s e s , t h a n k y o u J u d g e . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Page 89 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir m a n . M r R a k g o a t h e h a v e y o u r e a d t h e a ffi d a v it in fr o n t o f y o u ? M R R A K G O AT H E : Ye s I h a v e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e s ig n a tu r e a t t h e b o tt o m o f th a t a ff i d a v i t i s that your signature? M R R A K G O AT H E : It is indeed. A D V VA S S O N I S C : D o y o u c o n fir m t h a t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: Is th a t a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h e s e c o n d p a g e o f t h e a ffi d a v i t ? 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: T h a t’s c o r r e c t . Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d d o y o u c o n f ir m t h a t w h a t ’s c o n t a i n e d i n t h i s a ffi d a v i t i s t r u e a n d c o r r e c t ? M R R A K G O AT H E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w, y o u ’v e h e a r d t h e e v i d e n c e o f Mr H o l e l e [i n d is t in c t ] i n Fe b r u a r y / M a r c h 2 0 1 7 t h a t w a s y o u , h e a n d M r Moodley were present. M R R A K G O AT H E : Correct. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 Te ll t h e C h a ir p e r s o n h o w i t c a m e a b o u t th a t y o u w e n t to t h a t m e e ti n g ? M R R A K G O AT H E: C h a ir I w a s c a ll e d b y [ in d i s ti n c t – r e c o r d i n g b r e a k i n g u p ]. CHAIRPERSON: … t h e w it n e s s w h o w o u l d t e s ti f y o n th e s a m e s id e w o u ld b e li s te n i n g i n th e r o o m b u t – b e c a u s e th e i d e a w o u l d b e th a t h is e v i d e n c e m u s t b e b a s e d o n h is o w n m e m o r y b u t c h e c k h i m b e c a u s e Page 90 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s a r e b r o a d c a s t s o e v e n i f s o m e b o d y is n o t i n t h e r o o m , t h e y m a y b e w a t c h in g a n d l is te n in g b u t i t d o e s [ in d i s ti n c t ] o n e w o u ld h a v e p r e f e r r e d t h a t h e w a s n o t l is t e n in g to th a t e v i d e n c e a n d t h e n y o u a s k h i m t o g i v e y o u h is e v i d e n c e a s h e r e c a l ls i t w i th o u t h a v i n g li s te n i n g – w it h o u t h a v i n g b e e n in t h e r o o m w h e n th e e v i d e n c e w a s g iv e n b u t th o s e a r e t h e c h a l le n g e s t h a t c o m e w i t h t e c h n o l o g y a n d , ja . O k a y y o u r m ic i s n o t o n a g a i n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o r r y p l e a s e a c c e p t th a t w e d i d d e b a te t h i s a n d t h e v e r y i s s u e t h a t y o u r a i s e d is i f M r R a k g o a t h e is s i t ti n g n e x t d o o r 10 h e ’ d b e a b le t o h a v e – b u t [i n d is t in c t] a n d I th in k y o u a r e r ig h t o r s u b m i t y o u a r e r i g h t a n d th a t i n f u t u r e w e m u s t e n s u r e a [i n d is t in c t] b e t w e e n w h o is th e p e r s o n g iv in g e v i d e n c e a n d t h e p e r s o n w h o is [i n d is t in c t] . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t ’s – a s I s a y i t’s tr i c k y b u t i f s o m e b o d y is k n o w n to b e s i t t in g h e r e a n d li s t e n i n g t o e v i d e n c e o f a w it n e s s t h a t la t e r o n h e o r s h e is r e q u ir e d t o [i n d is t in c t ] h e o r s h e is a b l e t o [i n d is t in c t – r e c o r d i n g b r e a k i n g u p ] e v id e n c e is n o t t h e s a m e a s t h a t o f s o m e b o d y w h o m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n i n th e r o o m , s o [i n d is t in c t ] b u t a s I s a y s o m e t i m e s s o m e b o d y ’s li s t e n i n g a n d t h e y d o n ’ t e v e n k n o w t h e y ’l l e n d u p b e i n g 20 c a l l e d b u t t h e y g e t c a ll e d a n d th a t t h e y g i v e e v i d e n c e b u t i t’s ju s t t h a t w e n e e d t o b e a li v e to th e s e c h a ll e n g e s [i n d is t in c t] w h a t n e e d s to b e done. A D V VA S S O N I S C : C h a i r p e r s o n , m a y I j u s t s a y t h a t [i n d is t in c t – r e c o r d i n g b r e a k i n g u p ] t o e r r o n t h e s id e o f [ in d is ti n c t ] r a t h e r t h a n c o n v e n i e n c e t h a t o n e c o u l d – a n d I th i n k t h a t is fo r m e [ in d i s ti n c t ] . Page 91 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s b e c a u s e o f c o u r s e [i n d is t i n c t] b e o p e n t o a n y b o d y w h o m i g h t w a n t t o c h a ll e n g e h i s e v i d e n c e t o s a y t h a t w h a t [i n d is t in c t] p u t o n – c a n t h e C o m m i s s i o n p u t o n h is e v i d e n c e b e c a u s e h e w a s s i t t in g h e r e , h e h e a r d e v e r y t h in g t h a t M r H o l e l e s a y s , h e t h e n c o m e s a ft e r Mr H o l e l e a n d s a y s , y e s i t ’s r ig h t b u t y o u a r e s i t ti n g h e r e lis t e n i n g t o e v e r y th in g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : I w il l g o o n M r C h a i r ma n a n d w e j u s t – y o u h a v e [i n d is t in c t] . CHAIRPERSON: 10 J a o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w, y o u ’v e h e a r d t h e e v id e n c e o f Mr H o l e l e a n d a s C h a ir p e r s o n h a s r i g h t ly p o i n t e d o u t t o u s [ i n d is ti n c t ] b u t b e f o r e y o u m a d e y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u h a d s e e n h is s t a t e m e n t ? M R R A K G O AT H E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u , in f a c t s a y t h a t y o u c o n f ir m w h a t h e h a s said. M R R A K G O AT H E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w l e t’s ju s t g e t t o th e n u b o f y o u r e v i d e n c e [i n d is t in c t] w e k n o w th is m e e ti n g h a p p e n e d , s o t e l l u s i n y o u r o w n w o r d s w h a t h a p p e n e d a t th e m e e t i n g , i n o t h e r w o r d s , h o w d id y o u – w e 20 k n o w t h a t M r H o le l e i n v i t e d y o u b u t w h e r e w a s t h e m e e t i n g h e l d ? M R R A K G O AT H E : CHAIRPERSON: Th e m e e ti n g w a s h e l d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] . L e t ’s ju s t m a k e s u r e – i s t h e m e e t in g t h a t M r H o le le s a i d h a p p e n e d i n M a r c h o r F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 7 , t h a t ’s th e m e e t in g y o u ’r e t a lk in g a b o u t? M R R A K G O AT H E : C o r r e c t , I c a n ’t r e m e m b e r th e d a t e s p e c i f ic a ll y a s Page 92 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 in d i c a t e d b y M r H o le l e b u t c e r ta i n ly I r e m e m b e r t h e m e e t i n g t h a t I w a s in v i te d t o b y h i m . A s I i n d ic a te d C h a ir, I w a s s i t ti n g i n m y o ff ic e a n d M r H o l e l e c a l l e d m e f r o m t h e o ffi c e a n d s a i d , jo in m e i n a m e e t i n g . W h e n I e n q u ir e d w h a t w a s th e m e e t in g a b o u t h e s a i d c o m e , a n d I s a i d , le t m e ju s t g o w i t h a c o l l e a g u e a n d th a t m e e t i n g w a s i n t h e s e c t i o n w e c a ll th e G r o u p C E O s e c t io n , in o n e o f t h e b o a r d r o o m s a n d a s I in d ic a t e d I w a s n o t a w a r e a b o u t th e m e e t in g o r w h a t t h e s u b j e c t m e e t i n g w a s o r w h o w e w e r e m e e ti n g f o r th a t m a t te r a n d w h e n I w a lk e d i n to t h e b o a r d r o o m t h e r e w a s a g e n tl e m a n s i t t in g , I d i d n ’ t k n o w t h e n a m e , I d i d n ’ t k n o w t h e 10 p e r s o n i t w a s m y f ir s t e n c o u n t e r w i t h t h e g e n t le m a n . I remember he w a s in t r o d u c e d b u t I d i d n ’ t t a k e i t t o n o te b e c a u s e th a t w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e m e e ti n g s o I d i d n ’ t k n o w [i n d is t in c t – r e c o r d i n g b r e a k i n g u p ] th a t p a r t ic u l a r m e e t i n g . W e t h e n s a t d o w n a n d e n o u g h o f t h e d i s c u s s io n w a s t h a t P R A S A o w e s Pr o d i g y a c e r t a i n s u m o f m o n e y fo r t h e s e r v ic e s r e n d e r e d a n d Mr M o o d le y t h e n i n d ic a t e d th a t h e ’s s u r p r is e d t h a t [i n d is t in c t] w h y w e ’r e d e f e n d i n g t h e m a t te r f o r s e r v ic e s t h a t h a d b e e n r e n d e r e d . H e d i d m o s t o f t h e t a lk i n g a n d I t h e n – w h e n i t c a m e t o m y t u r n t o s p e a k i n th e m e e t in g I t h e n i n d ic a t e d t o M r M o o d l e y t h a t i f y o u [i n d is t in c t] o n m a k in g a p r o p o s a l th a t h e m u s t m a k e t h e p r o p o s a l 20 f o r m a l ly a n d th a t w il l b e c o n s i d e r e d b y P R A S A a t t o r n e y s s o th a t th e m a t t e r c a n b e lo o k e d a t . I t w a s d i ff ic u l t to s a y w i t h r e g a r d s t o h i s d e c is i o n , h is p r o p o s a l o r h is d e m a n d f o r p a y m e n t o t h e r t h a n t h e f a c t t h a t , th a t k i n d o f p r o c e s s y o u n e e d t o p r o c e s s w h a t y o u r e q u i r e fr o m P R A S A t h r o u g h a p r o c e s s th a t w e i n d ic a t e a n d th e n th e p r o c e s s – I s a i d t o h i m t h a t h e m u s t m a k e a fo r m a l p r o p o s a l to o u r l a w y e r s s o t h a t Page 93 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 t h e m a t t e r – b e c a u s e t h e m a t t e r w a s in C o u r t a t t h a t s t a g e f o r th a t o th e r p r o p o s a l t o b e c o n s i d e r e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : B e f o r e y o u c a r r y o n , c a n I j u s t a s k y o u t h is , w a s a n y f i g u r e m e n ti o n e d , to t h e b e s t o f y o u r k n o w le d g e ? M R R A K G O AT H E: I can’t remember the number there was a number t h a t w a s m e n t io n e d i n t h e m e e t in g C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w e r e y o u a w a r e o f th e f a c t o f t h e d i s p u t e a n d the nature of the dispute? M R R A K G O AT H E : 10 I w a s o n h i g h l e v e l – I’ m p a r t o f t h e G r o u p L e a d e r R i s k a n d C o m p l ia n c e , m y r o l e is c o m p l ia n c e s o w e h o l d m e e ti n g s r e g u la r ly to d is c u s s t h e w o r k l o a d th a t w e h a v e th r o u g h th e G r o u p R i s k L e g a l m e e ti n g . T h a t m a t te r w a s m e n t io n e d b u t I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h e n a t u r e a n d th e s u b s ta n c e o f t h e m e e t i n g b u t it w a s o n e o f t h e m a t te r s t h a t w a s m e n t io n e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h e n y o u [ i n d i s t in c t ] r e b u ffe d t h e d e m a n d , w h a t w a s M r M o o d l e y ’s r e a c ti o n ? M R R A K G O AT H E : W e ll I s u p p o s e i t w a s i n s is ti n g – t h e r e w a s a s t a l e m a t e b u t w h a t I r e m e m b e r w a s t h a t a t t h e ta il e n d o f t h e m e e ti n g , t h e y m e n ti o n e d t h a t h e w a s f i n e w i t h t h e t o p 1 5 o r 1 7 , I r e c a ll i t t o b e 20 1 7 b u t I c o u l d b e o n a d v is e m e n t if 1 5 o r 1 7 th a t w a s p a r t o f t h e d e c is i o n m a k e r a n d t h a t d e c i s i o n m a k in g , i n v o l v e d a p p o in t m e n ts o r lo o k in g a t n o m i n a t io n s fo r S t a t e o w n e d e n te r p r is e s h e u s e d a n d t h a t w h e n th e d e c i s i o n – a n d t h a t t h e y o u n g m a n – h e d i d s a y t h a t t h e y o u n g m a n m a y b e c o m in g a n d a s a r e s u l t w e m u s t b e o n t h e r ig h t s id e of the changes that are eminent. Page 94 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : C a n I j u s t g e t b a c k t o p r e c is e l y w h a t M r M o o d le y s a i d i n r e l a ti o n t o b e i n g o n e o f t h e [i n d is t in c t – r e c o r d i n g b r e a k i n g u p ] a n d y o u s a y y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r i f it w a s 1 5 o r 1 7 , d i d h e m e n ti o n o n e n u m b e r o r d i d h e m e n ti o n m u l ti p le n u m b e r s ? M R R A K G O ATH E : H e m e n t io n e d o n e n u m b e r b u t I t h o u g h t in m y h e a d t h a t i t w a s t h e 1 7 b u t i t c o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e 1 5 C h a ir, I c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h a t p r e c i s e ly. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w h e e i th e r s a i d , I a m o n e o f t h e t o p 1 5 d e c is i o n m a k e r s i n th e c o u n t r y o r h e s a i d I ’ m o n e o f t h e t o p 1 7 d e c is io n 10 makers [ in d is ti n c t ] a n d d e c is i o n s r e l a ti n g t o w h a t , t h a t d e c is i o n in v o lv e s a n o m i n a ti o n s o f S t a te o w n e d e n t e r p r is e s C E O a s p a r t o f t h e d e c is i o n m a k i n g p r o c e s s e s t h a t w e r e i n v o l v e d . CHAIRPERSON: H a n g o n I ’ m s o r r y, y o u s a y h e s a id h e w a s o n e o f t h e t o p – w e ll 1 5 o r 1 7 , y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r w h ic h o n e b u t y o u th in k it ’s 1 7 , y o u s a y d e c is io n m a k e r s , I j u s t w a n t to … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . M R R A K G O AT H E : CHAIRPERSON: M R R A K G O AT H E: H e ’s a d e c i s i o n m a k e r. I n th e c o u n tr y o r h o w [ in d is t in c t] ? I d o n ’t k n o w i f i n r e la t io n t o t h e c o u n tr y b u t [i n d is t in c t] S t a t e o w n e d e n t e r p r is e s [i n d is ti n c t ] . 20 CHAIRPERSON: Was he saying he was one of the top 17 decision m a k e r s i n r e l a t i o n t o S ta t e o w n e d e n t e r p r i s e s ? M R R A K G O AT H E : CHAIRPERSON: M R R A K G O AT H E : CHAIRPERSON: C E O ’s . Sorry? C E O ’s . J a , C E O ’s . Page 95 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 M R R A K G O AT H E : CHAIRPERSON: C E O ’s , C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e O ffic e r. O k a y n o , l e t m e j u s t g e t th a t , h e w a s s a y i n g h e w a s o n e o f t h e t o p 1 7 d e c is io n m a k e r s i n r e la ti o n t o th e a p p o in t m e n t o f C E O ’s o f S t a t e e n t e r p r i s e s ? M R R A K G O AT H E : Correct. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d b y t h a t , I m e a n , I k n o w i t’s a l m o s t o b v i o u s b u t w h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d b y i t ? M R R A K G O ATH E : C h a ir I u n d e r s to o d t w o t h i n g s , t h a t I d i d n ’ t k n o w t h e m a n o r [i n d is t in c t] a n d I d i d n ’ t k n o w t h e e x te n t o f h is p o w e r. 10 So w h e n h e m e n ti o n e d th a t , a t t h e b a c k o f my m in d w a s , h is p r o b a b ly in f o r m i n g u s t h a t w e m u s t u n d e r s t a n d th a t if t h e c h a n g e s c o m e , w e m i g h t b e o n t h e r i g h t a s i n d ic a t e d , w e m u s t b e o n t h e r i g h t s id e o r m a y b e i t m a y h a v e b e e n a p l o y b e c a u s e th e b a s is o f o u r d i s c u s s io n w a s th a t h e w a n te d p a y m e n t t o s a y, y o u d a r e n o t m a k e p a y m e n t , t h o s e a r e t h e k i n d o f th i n g s t h a t a r e r u n n in g i n m y h e a d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : O k a y t h o s e a r e th e t w o th i n g s th a t w e n t i n y o u r mind at that time? M R R A K G O AT H E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 Let me ask you, you had not met Mr Moodley b e f o r e th is m e e ti n g ? M R R A K G O AT H E : N o I h a d n o t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A f t e r th e m e e ti n g d i d y o u b e c o m e a w a r e o f M r M o o d l e y a n d h is d e a li n g s w i t h P R A S A ? M R R A K G O AT H E: I h a d b e c o m e a w a r e o f i t [i n d is ti n c t ] w h e n I r e a d t h e b o o k b y J a c q u e s P a u w, t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s K e e p e r s , th a t ’s w h e n I t h e n Page 96 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 f o r m e d a n o ti o n a b o u t th e e x t e n t o f h i s p o w e r a t le a s t a s i n d ic a te d in t h a t b o o k a n d t h a t [ i n d is ti n c t ] p e r s o n th a t w e s p o k e to a n d m a y b e h a s r e a c h e d th a t [i n d is t in c t ] . CHAIRPERSON: J a , p r io r t o t h i s m e e ti n g , y o u s a y y o u h a d n o t m e t M r Moodley? M R R A K G O AT H E : N o I h a d n o t m e t M r M o o d l e y. CHAIRPERSON: Had you heard of him? M R R A K G O AT H E : I’ v e h e a r d o f h i m i n t h e c o r r i d o r s b u t n o t in s o m a n y g r e a t e r d e t a i ls . 10 CHAIRPERSON: O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h a t w a s t h e ta lk in t h e c o r r id o r s . Mr C h a ir p e r s o n I’ m a w a r e o f h e a r s a y b u t I w a n t it f o r a d i ffe r e n t c o n t e x t , ju s t t o s a y, t h a t w a s t h e t h i n k in g . CHAIRPERSON: Ja, what did you know about him that people may h a v e b e e n s a y in g w i t h i n P R A S A a b o u t h i m . M R R A K G O ATH E : C e r t a in [ in d i s ti n c t ] to b e – b e f o r e I j o i n e d P R A S A t h e c o m p l ia n c e I h a d b e e n w o r k in g a t I n te r s i d e A s s e t I n v e s t m e n t a n d I w a s i n t h e C O ’s o ffic e , in M a r t h a ’s o ff ic e , t h e r e w a s a r u m o u r t h a t h e w a s a li g n e d to [ in d i s ti n c t ] . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t M a r th a , y o u ’r e t a l k i n g about Ms Ngoye? M R R A K G O AT H E : A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . Th is is t h e p e r s o n t h a t H o l e le t a l k e d a b o u t b e i n g a t o n e o f th o s e m e e ti n g s ? M R R A K G O AT H E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . Page 97 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w, d id y o u t r e a t t h is a s j u s t a [i n d is t in c t] o r d i d – a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g y o u a s k e d M r H o le le , b u t w h o i s th is p e r s o n t o te ll u s a b o u t h o w w e s h o u ld o p e r a t e ? M R R A K G O AT H E : I d i d a s k M r H o le l e a b o u t th e p e r s o n a n d h e s a i d , n o t h a t is [i n d is t i n c t] b u t o b v i o u s l y I d id n ’ t g o t o th e g r e a t e x t e n t o f s a y in g w h a t p o w e r d o e s h e h a v e w i th i n P R A S A b u t a t s o m e p o in t , I think because of my experience as a lawyer it might be name dropping a n d m a y b e t h a t e x t e n t o f w h a t h e w a n t e d to s h o w o ff t h a t h e h a s g o t p o w e r w i th in P R A S A a n d t h a t h e ’s g o t p o w e r [i n d i s t i n c t ] s o t h a t h e c a n 10 m a k e c h a n g e s t h a t w e h a v e [ in d is ti n c t ] . A D V VA S S O N I S C : H i n d s i g h t s o m e ti m e s t h r o w s g r e a t e r l ig h t o n w h a t happened before. Yo u , t h e r e a f t e r r e a d J a c q u e s P a u w ’s b o o k , t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s K e e p e r s . M R R A K G O AT H E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h e n y o u r e a d t h e b o o k , d id y o u t h e n g o , i n y o u r o w n m i n d g o b a c k t o t h is i n c id e n t w h e r e M r M o o d l e y h a d t o ld y o u w h a t p o w e r s h e s u p p o s e d ly h a d . M R R A K G O AT H E : I t d id r e a ll y [ i n d is ti n c t ] th a t mi g h t b e t h e p e r s o n t h a t – th a t w h e n h e s a i d h e ’s g o t p o w e r th a t h e p r o b a b l y m ig h t h a v e t h e 20 p o w e r th a t h e in d i c a t e d h e h a d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A f te r th e m e e ti n g , i m m e d i a t e ly a f t e r, y o u d i d n ’ t h a v e a n y fu r t h e r d e a l i n g s w it h M r M o o d le y ? M R R A K G O AT H E : A D V VA S S O N I S C : M R R A K G O AT H E : N o t a t a l l. [ I n d is ti n c t ] . N o t a t a l l C h a ir. Page 98 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e d is p u t e b e t w e e n P r o d i g y a n d P R A S A , t h e o n e t h a t Mr M o o d l e y w a s d e m a n d i n g p a y m e n t [i n d is t in c t] ? M R R A K G O AT H E: I ’ m – a l t h o u g h I ’ m [ in d is t in c t] b u t I d id n ’t d e a l w i th t h e m a t t e r a n d I’ m n o t t o o s u r e h o w f a r i t i s c u r r e n tl y o r w h e r e i t e n d e d , if it h a s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e l l e v i d e n c e w il l b e l e d b y [i n d i s t i n c t ] b u t y o u have no idea? M R R A K G O AT H E: 10 N o I d o n ’ t h a v e r e c o l le c t i o n o f t h e e n d o f th a t m a t t e r C h a ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w Mr M o o d l e y s a id , I a m o n e o f t h e 1 5 o r 1 7 p e o p l e w h o a p p o i n t o r n o m i n a t e p e o p le t o b e a p p o i n t e d a s C E O ’s o f SOE. M R R A K G O AT H E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M R R A K G O AT H E : W h a t e ls e d id h e s a y i n r e l a ti o n t o P R A S A i ts e lf ? O th e r t h a n th e y o u n g m a n w a s c o m i n g b a c k h e th e n – I c a n ’ t r e c a ll a n y o t h e r m a t t e r t h a t h e m a y h a v e m e n t i o n e d i n t h e m e e ti n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 Now when he said, the young man is coming b a c k , w h a t d id y o u u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o m e a n b y t h a t ? M R R A K G O AT H E: I understood Chair that, he was referencing o b v i o u s l y t h a t – b e c a u s e t h e d i s c u s s io n w a s p r e f a c e d b y o n e o f th e to p 1 5 / 1 7 d e c is io n m a k e r s o f S O E ’s a n d t h e r e fo r e r e f e r e n c e w o u l d h a v e b e e n t o – a t t h a t t i m e P R A S A d i d n ’ t h a v e a f u l l ti m e o r p e r m a n e n t C E O a n d t h e r e f o r e t h e r e fe r e n c e w o u ld h a v e b e e n t o a C E O w h o h a d b e e n Page 99 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 g o n e a n d c o m e b a c k a n d I c o u l d o n ly r e l a t e i t t o M r M o n t a n a w h o h a d le f t , a l t h o u g h i n 2 0 1 5 a n d h e i n te n d s [i n d i s t in c t ] t h a t, t h a t c o u l d b e t h e person. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M R R A K G O AT H E : S o t h a t ’s w h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d ? Correct. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w h e a ls o s a i d y o u n e e d t o b e o n t h e r ig h t s i d e o f [ in d is ti n c t ] . M R R A K G O AT H E : Th a t ’s c o r r e c t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 O k a y, w h a t d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d b y t h a t, t h a t y o u m u s t b e o n t h e r i g h t s i d e o f t h e fe n c e i n r e la ti o n t o a d e c is i o n y o u w e r e going to make in regard to him? M R R A K G O AT H E: C h a ir a s I in d ic a t e d t w o th i n g s th a t [ in d is ti n c t ] y o u s e e t h a t t h e r e ’s g o i n g t o b e s o m e s e r i o u s c h a ll e n g e s t o u s a t w o r k b e c a u s e o f t h e d e c i s i o n – w e ll I c a ll it n o d e c i s i o n b e c a u s e h e ju s t in d i c a t e d t h e c o r r e c t p r o c e s s t h a t h e n e e d e d u s t o f o ll o w o r h a v i n g r e b u ff e d b y m y s e l f o r Ti r o b u t a l t e r n a ti v e l y a s I’v e s a id a t t h a t t i m e o f t h e m e e t i n g I t h o u g h t , i t m i g h t b e a n a m e d r o p p in g e x e r c i s e s o h e ’s tr y i n g t o n u d g e u s t o r e - t h i n k o r t o r e - t h i n k w h a t h e h a d p r o p o s e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 But if he was not name dropping then you u n d e r s t o o d b y r e s i s ti n g h i s d e m a n d o r n o t a c c e d i n g t o h i s d e m a n d y o u w e r e r is k i n g b e i n g o n t h e w r o n g s i d e , y o u r e c o n c i l e d y o u r s e l f in t h a t ? M R R A K G O AT H E : C o r r e c t , I t h i n k , i n h i n d s i g h t, a f te r r e a d i n g t h e b o o k , J a c q u e s P a u w a n d t h e n I r e a l is e d h e p r o b a b ly m i g h t h a v e p o w e r, he probably then might have been that our careers at PRASA – my c a r e e r a t P R A S A w o u l d h a v e b e e n [i n d is t i n c t ] b u t I h a d n ’ t b e e n o n th e Page 100 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 b a c k s i d e o f e i t h e r Mr M o n ta n a o r M r M o o d le y t o h a v e e x p e r ie n c e d t h a t a n d s a y, i t ’s t h a t , th a t ’s g o in g to h a p p e n , t h a t a s s u m p ti o n c e r t a i n ly I c o u l d n ’ t m a k e b a s e d o n t h e r e f le c t i o n t h a t I h a d a f e w y e a r s d o w n t h e li n e w h e n I r e a d J a c q u e s P a u w ’s b o o k . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Yo u s a y y o u w e r e n o t o n th e w r o n g s i d e o f M r M o n ta n a a r e y o u a w a r e o f p e o p l e w h o w e r e o n t h e w r o n g s id e o f M r M o n ta n a ? M R R A K G O AT H E : 10 Correct. A D V VA S S O N I S C : And what happened to them? M R R A K G O AT H E: T h e a l le g a ti o n – w e l l th e r e a l i ty t h a t M r C h a u k e e x p e r i e n c e d a t P R A S A , b e c a u s e h e w a s a c o l l e a g u e t h a t I w o r k e d w i th , a l t h o u g h I w a s n o t i n v o l v e d i n tr ic a t e ly w i t h h is d i s c i p li n a r y, w h a t w a s in d i c a t e d i n t h e c o r r i d o r s w a s i t w a s a n in s is t e n c e th a t c a m e fr o m [i n d is t in c t] w h ic h w a s a li g n e d w i th M r M o o d l e y a s I i n d ic a te d a n d t h e n t h r o u g h M r M o n ta n a t h a t h e th e n g o t s u s p e n d e d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A r e th e r e a n y o th e r p e o p le w h o s u ff e r e d a n y d is a d v a n t a g e a s a r e s u lt o f b e in g o n t h e w r o n g s i d e o f M r M o n t a n a t h a t y o u ’r e a w a r e o f ? M R R A K G O AT H E: 20 I ’ ll b e s p e c u l a ti n g , o t h e r t h a n c o r r id o r t a l k . The f a t e t h a t M r H o le le s u ff e r e d , I k n o w h e m o v e d t o P R A S A b u t I c a n ’ t t e l l you the detail about the reason and the reason he was suspended, it w i ll b e [ in d i s ti n c t – a u d i o b r e a k i n g u p ] . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: T h o s e a r e t h e q u e s t i o n s I h a v e f o r t h is w i t n e s s . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r R a k g o a th e , d id I p r o n o u n c e it c o r r e c t ly ? Page 101 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 M R R A K G O AT H E : R a k g o a t h e , y e s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming to give your e v i d e n c e , i f w e n e e d y o u a g a i n I w il l a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k b u t f o r n o w you are excused. M R R A K G O AT H E : T h a n k s . CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir m a n , a s I i n d ic a te d e a r l ie r t h is m o r n i n g o u r n e x t w i t n e s s i s g o i n g t o b e [i n d i s t i n c t – a u d i o b r e a k i n g u p ] . CHAIRPERSON: 10 Ye s , [i n d is t in c t ] M r S o n i d i d s o m e b o d y s p e a k to th e t e c h n ic ia n s a b o u t – g i v e u s m o r e l ig h t ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir m a n w e c o u l d n o t f in d a n y o f t h e t e c h n ic ia n s h e r e , w e ’v e e s c a l a t e d it [ in d i s t in c t ] . CHAIRPERSON: S o m e b o d y m u s t ju s t s p e a k to s o m e b o d y, t h e l i g h t in g is v e r y p o o r r e a l ly h e r e i n fr o n t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: I can tell you it has been escalated. I d o n ’ t k n o w w i th t h i s G o v e r n m e n t , e s c a la t in g m e a n s w h e n y o u g e t th e a n s w e r o n Fr id a y b e c a u s e I m e a n , s o m e b o d y m u s t ju s t t a l k t o s o m e b o d y, I w o u l d i m a g i n e n o b o d y w o u l d h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n t o g iv i n g u s m o r e li g h t . 20 I d o n ’ t k n o w if i t’s s o m e th i n g t h a t m u s t g o to c o m m i t t e e s o r m u n ic i p a l i ti e s [l a u g h t e r ] . I t w a s b e f o r e l u n c h , in f a c t q u i t e e a r ly w h e n w e s t a r t e d t h a t I r a is e d th e i s s u e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : CHAIRPERSON: Ye s y o u d id . Ye s , o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M a y t h e w i tn e s s b e s w o r n in ? Page 102 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 CHAIRPERSON: Ye s , p l e a s e a d m i n i s t e r t h e o a t h , I th in k i t w a s t h e o a t h l a s t ti m e , w e l l a ffi r m a ti o n i f i t h a s c h a n g e d . R E G I S T R A R : P l e a s e s ta t e y o u r f u ll n a m e s fo r t h e r e c o r d . W I T N E S S : M y n a m e is [ in a u d i b l e – n o t s p e a k i n g i n t o m ic ] R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c ti o n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ? W I T N E S S : [ I n a u d ib le ] . R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a t h to b e b in d i n g o n y o u r conscious. WITNESS: I do. 10 REGISTRAR: D o y o u s w e a r t h a t th e e v i d e n c e y o u ’l l g iv e w il l b e t h e tr u th th e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g e ls e b u t t h e tr u th , i f s o , p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r r i g h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e lp m e G o d . WITNESS: So help me God. MR POPO SIMON MOLEFE: (duly sworn, states) C H A I R P E R S O N : W e lc o m e b a c k M r M o le f e y o u ’r e c o m in g b a c k fo r t h e s e c o n d t i m e a n d w e a p p r e c i a te i t v e r y m u c h . W h e n y o u w e r e h e r e , o f c o u r s e , i t w a s a b o u t Tr a n s n e t, t h i s t i m e i t ’s a b o u t P R A S A b u t w e a p p r e c ia t e t h a t y o u a r e b a c k , t h a n k y o u . A r e y o u a b l e t o h e a r m e w e ll t h e r e M r M o l e fe , a r e y o u a b l e t o h e a r m e ? 20 M R M O L E F E : I d o C h a ir p e r s o n , I d o h e a r. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r M o le f e , y o u h a v e a n a ff i d a v i t b e f o r e y o u … [ in t e r v e n e s ]. CHAIRPERSON: I t l o o k s l ik e y o u a r e n o t c o m f o r t a b l e t h e r e is th a t b e c a u s e o f t h e m i c r o p h o n e , p e r h a p s i t s h o u l d b e t a k e n o u t o r w h a t, o r Page 103 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 it c a n ’ t b e t a k e n o u t w il l s o m e b o d y a s s is t h i m . I th i n k s o m e b o d y w il l c o m e a n d a s s is t y o u . Yo u d i d n ’ t l o o k c o m f o r t a b l e , o h t h e c h a ir is t o o s h o r t , t o o l o w j a . Is t h e r e s o m e th i n g t h a t c a n b e d o n e t o r a i s e i t o r is there nothing that can be done? M R M O L E F E : W e ’l l j u s t c h a n g e t h e s i t ti n g p o s i ti o n , t h e c h a ir s . CHAIRPERSON: Ye s you lo o k kind of squashed but are you comfortable? M R M O L E F E : I w i ll s i t t h i s w a y. CHAIRPERSON: 10 J a a s l o n g a s y o u a r e c o m f o r t a b l e ja , o k a y a lr ig h t , thank you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Mr M o le f e y o u h a v e a n a ff id a v i t in fr o n t o f y o u , a m I correct? M R M O L E F E : I d o s ir. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d o n t h e to p … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]. MR MOLEFE: M a y I r e q u e s t , b e f o r e w e p r o c e e d w i t h t h a t a ffi d a v it I m a k e c e r t a i n … . [ in t e r v e n e s ] . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e c o r r e c ti o n s ? MR MOLEFE: S o m e c o r r e c t io n s b e c a u s e I’ v e n o t h a d t h e o p p o r tu n i t y t o s e e i t w i t h c o u n s e l. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : O h i s t h a t s o , o k a y. M R M O L E F E : I j u s t n e e d th e o p p o r tu n i t y, w e c o u l d … [ i n te r v e n e s ] . CHAIRPERSON: W e l l w e c o u ld d o o n e o f t w o t h i n g s , w e c a n t a k e a fi v e - mi n u te a d jo u r n m e n t fo r y o u t o a l e r t h i m t o w h a t y o u w is h …[intervenes]. M R M O L E F E : I th i n k th a t m ig h t b e b e t t e r. Page 104 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 CHAIRPERSON: T h a t m ig h t b e b e t t e r t h a t w a y, ja l e t’s t a k e a f iv e - m i n u t e a d jo u r n m e n t, w e a d j o u r n . INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay let us proceed. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r C h a ir p e r s o n m a y I q u ic k ly g o t h r o u g h t h o s e ? T h e y – i t is o n l y a b o u t fi v e p a r a g r a p h s a n d th e y d e a l w it h j u s t 10 ( in d is ti n c t) m a in ly. CHAIRPERSON: The … A D V VA S S O N I S C : O r w o u l d y o u lik e m e t o d o t h a t? C H A I R P E R S O N : Th e r e a r e t w o w a y s i n w h ic h w e c a n d o i t . O n e is to p o i n t t h e m o u t n o w. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : A n o t h e r is t o k e e p a n e y e o n th e m a n d a s a n d w h e n h e r e a c h e s a p o in t w h e r e h e t a l k s a b o u t t h e p a r t o f t h e a ffi d a v it w h e r e t h e – t h e m is t a k e s o r e r r o r s a r e th e n w e c a n d e a l w i th t h e m . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m h a p p y w it h e i t h e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : I n v i e w o f t h e f a c t t h a t s o m e o f th e d a t e s a r e q u i t e c r u c i a l I a m g o i n g t o a s k i f w e c a n n o t – a n d i t is n o t g o in g t o ta k e m o r e than about three minutes. CHAIRPERSON: J a o k a y. N o t h a t i s fi n e . Of course it may be n e c e s s a r y t o a r r a n g e f o r a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ffi d a v i t . Page 105 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : To c o r r e c t i t b u t f o r p u r p o s e s o f t o d a y t h e e r r o r s c a n b e p o i n te d o u t . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r M o l e f e y o u h a v e r a is e d w it h m e a n u m b e r o f is s u e s I ju s t w a n t to g o t h r o u g h th e o n e s t h a t a r e w o r r y i n g y o u . I f y o u lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1 w e s a y … C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I a m s o r r y. I m a y h a v e i n t e r v e n e d e a r l ie r b e f o r e 10 t h e a d j o u r n m e n t w h e n y o u w e r e s t il l a b o u t t o g e t in t o i d e n t i fy h i s a ffi d a v i ts t h a t y o u c o n f ir m t h a t i t is h is a ffi d a v i ts . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: So you want to do that first? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . M r M o l e fe y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u r a ffi d a v i t h a s been marked SS6? I t is – y o u w i ll s e e t h a t o n th e to p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r. M R M O L E F E : Ye s I d o . A D V VA S S O N I S C : E x c e p t f o r t h o s e c o r r e c t io n s th a t w e a r e g o i n g t o g o t h r o u g h n o w d o y o u c o n fir m t h a t w h a t i s c o n t a in e d i n t h is a ffi d a v i t i s 20 tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ? M R M O L E F E : I d o C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A lr i g h t l e t u s ju s t l o o k a t t h o s e m a t t e r s th a t a r e o f s o m e c o n c e r n t o y o u . F ir s tl y i n p a r a g r a p h 1 in t h e s e c o n d l in e y o u s a y, d u r i n g t h e p e r i o d 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 to – a n d y o u h a v e g o t th e 3 0 A u g u s t 2 0 1 7 . W h a t d id y o u w a n t to c h a n g e i n th a t ? Page 106 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 M R M O L E F E : T h e c o r r e c t d a t e C h a ir p e r s o n is t h e 3 1 J u ly 2 0 1 7 . C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t i n t h e p l a c e o f … M R M O L E F E : S o y o u s u b s ti t u te 3 0 – 3 1 J u ly f o r 3 0 A u g u s t. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w p a r a g r a p h s 2 a n d 3 t h a t y o u d e a l t w i th a r e g r a m m a t ic a l m is t a k e s a n d w e c a n d e a l w i t h t h e m w i t h a li t tl e l a t e r. M a y I go – because this worries you at paragraph 30? M R M O L E F E : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : In th e l a s t s e n t e n c e o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h y o u s a y, a ll 10 t h is c o n ti n u e d u n ti l Mr M o n ta n a l e ft o ffi c e o n th e 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . Yo u w a n t to c h a n g e th a t th e r e ? MR MOLEFE: C h a i r p e r s o n I w a n t t o s u b s ti t u te 1 5 J u ly 2 0 1 5 f o r 3 1 March 2015. C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 5 J u l y 2 0 1 5 t h a t is w h a t i t s h o u l d b e ? M R M O L E F E : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : I s t h a t r ig h t ? W e ll I c a n t e ll y o u t h a t w h e n I r e a d t h is a ffi d a v i t I s a w t h i s d a te I m a d e a n o t e – w r o n g d a t e . MR MOLEF E: That is why I wanted to correct it before. C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . Ye s . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n p a r a g r a p h 5 0 M r M o l e f e . O n t h e 4 t h li n e y o u s a y, s ta r t in g a t t h e e n d o f t h e t h ir d l i n e . The Department of Tr a n s p o r t l a t e r l a u n c h e d t h e m u l ti m i lli o n r a n d Ta x i R e c a p i t a lis a ti o n Programme what did you want to change? C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y w h ic h p a r a g r a p h ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : O h s o r r y. P a r a g r a p h 5 0 M r C h a i r p e r s o n . Page 107 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 CHAIRPERSON: 15? A D V VA S S O N I S C : 5 0 . CHAIRPERSON: 50. A D V VA S S O N I S C : 5 0 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. M R M O L E F E : L in e 4 . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u . Ye s I h a v e g o t i t. M R M O L E F E : S o i t s h o u ld b e m u l ti b i ll i o n r a n d i n s t e a d o f m u l t i m ill i o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Th a n k y o u . 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h o s e a r e t h e e s s e n ti a l c h a n g e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d w e w i ll – w e w i ll h a v e a – M r C h a i r p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m i n o r o n e s l a t e r. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . I w a n t to a l s o s a y M r C h a ir p e r s o n y o u w ill r e c a l l th a t w h e n y o u l o o k a t th e a n n e x u r e s s o m e o f t h e a n n e x u r e s h a v e b e e n r e m o v e d fr o m M r M o le f e ’s a ff i d a v i t a n d p u t u p u n d e r R e f e r e n c e s a n d L e g is l a ti o n . T h a t a ff id a v i t w il l d e a l w i t h t h a t. C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A lr ig h t s o l e t u s g o t h e r e n o w M r M o le f e . 20 M R M O L E F E : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : t h is c o m m i s s io n . T h a t t h is is n o t t h e fir s t t i m e y o u a r e c o m i n g t o Yo u h a v e g iv e n e v i d e n c e b e fo r e i n r e l a ti o n t o S ta t e C a p t u r e i n r e s p e c t o f Tr a n s n e t a m I c o r r e c t ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Now I just at a level where people would Page 108 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 u n d e r s t a n d . Th e n a t u r e o f t h e e v i d e n c e y o u a r e g o in g t o b e g iv i n g i n t h is a ff i d a v i t is t h a t in s u b s ta n c e d i ffe r e n t fr o m t h e n a t u r e o f t h e e v i d e n c e . I a m n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e d e t a i l. I n o t h e r w o r d s a b o u t S t a t e Capture. M R M O L E F E : W o u l d y o u p l e a s e r e p e a t t h e q u e s ti o n ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . O k a y p e r h a p s – p e r h a p s I c o u l d l e a v e i t . I a m ju s t tr y i n g t o s a y th a t … CHAIRPERSON: Or maybe what if we put it this way? If you look at t h e e v id e n c e y o u a r e g o i n g to g i v e t o d a y w it h r e g a r d t o P R A S A a n d 10 h a v i n g r e g a r d t o t h e e v i d e n c e y o u g a v e w it h r e g a r d t o Tr a n s n e t i n t h e c o n te x t o f S t a te C a p tu r e a r e th e r e a n y c o m m o n f e a tu r e s th a t y o u a r e a b l e t o i d e n t i fy ? M R M O L E F E : T h e r e a r e c e r t a in c o m m o n f e a t u r e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M O L E F E : A n d – w h i c h I w o u ld . C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y o u w il l d e a l w i t h . M R M O L E F E : W e w il l d e l i b e r a t e o n a s w e g o a l o n g . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . D o e s t h a t c o v e r w h a t y o u w a n t e d t o ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : 20 C h a ir p e r s o n . In d e e d a n d I a m ( i n d is ti n c t) w i t h y o u M r B u t I j u s t w a n t t o a s k a f o ll o w u p q u e s t io n t o d a y. Are t h e r e u n i q u e f e a t u r e s o r d i ff e r e n t f e a t u r e s i n P R A S A a n d t h a t t o o w e can cover but I am just asking so that we know we should be alert to them? MR MOLEFE: W e l l t h e u n i q u e fe a t u r e s a r e t o th e e x t e n t o f t h e – th e in d i v i d u a ls w h o fe a t u r e a n d w h o a r e c o n s id e r e d to b e h i n d t h e c a p t u r e Page 109 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 o f th e s ta t e . B u t th e m o d u s o p e r a n d i i n b o t h i n s ta n c e s a s in c o m m o n a li ti e s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w in p a r a g r a p h 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t y o u s e t o u t w h y i n y o u r v ie w y o u r e x p e r i e n c e s a t P R A S A w il l a s s is t th e c o m m i s s io n t o b e t t e r u n d e r s ta n d a n d m a k e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s i n r e s p e c t to S t a te Capture. C o u ld y o u e x p l a i n t o th e C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t th o s e p a r ti c u l a r features are? M R M O L E F E : W h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n th e f e a t u r e s r e a ll y I – w h ic h I s e t o u t in m y s t a t e m e n t . 10 CHAIRPERSON: I a m s o r r y M r M o le f e I a m g o i n g t o d is t u r b y o u . M r Soni I may be mistaken but maybe because we had some – there were s o m e c o r r e c t i o n s t o b e m a d e u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 1 y o u th o u g h t th a t h a s b e e n d e a l t w it h in t e r m s o f h i m s a y i n g w h e n h e b e c a m e C h a i r p e r s o n o f t h e B o a r d a n d w h a t h is te r m w a s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: Or has that been covered? A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h a t h a s b e e n c o v e r e d Mr C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. O k a y. O k a y I a m a fr a i d y o u m i g h t h a v e to a s k t h e q u e s t i o n a g a in . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s CHAIRPERSON: Because I have not intervened. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o t a t a ll M r C h a ir p e r s o n . M r M o l e fe if y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v i t a n d I j u s t w a n t t o a s k y o u t o c o n s id e r e d w h a t y o u h a v e s a id in p a r a g r a p h 5 a n d s e t o u t fo r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w h y y o u r e x p e r ie n c e s a t P R A S A w il l a s s i s t t h i s c o m m i s s io n ? Yo u h a v e s e t Page 110 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 it o u t in p a r a g r a p h 5 . M R M O L E F E : B a s i c a ll y w h a t I a m s a y in g C h a ir p e r s o n i s t h a t i n a ll th a t t o f a c i li t a te t h e c a p tu r e w h ic h is fu n d a m e n ta lly o f P R A S A b u t w e d o i t in t h e c o n t e x t o f S t a t e C a p t u r e th a t t h e m o d u s o p e r a n d i w a s fi r s tl y to c a p tu r e p e o p le w h o h o l d p o s i ti o n s o f tr u s t a n d r e s p o n s ib il i ty a n d t h a t was done by those at the heart of State Capture and they do so b e c a u s e t h e r e is in d iv i d u a ls h a v e t h e a u th o r i ty a n d i n fl u e n c e i n a w a r d in g t e n d e r s . These people who were made vulnerable by those w h o h a v e t h e – t h e in t e n t o n c a p t u r i n g th e o r g a n s o f s t a te i n th is 10 in s t a n c e P R A S A . B u t I a ls o s e e k to s h o w t h a t i n d iv i d u a ls a n d in s t i tu t io n s w h ic h w e r e u n d e r o b li g a t i o n a n d d u t y to p r o t e c t P R A S A a n d t h o s e w h o w e r e m a d e v u l n e r a b l e f a il e d to f u l fi l th a t d u t y a n d a s a r e s u l t a l lo w e d t h e c a p tu r e o f P R A S A t o s u c c e e d a n d to b e n e fi t c e r ta i n in d i v i d u a ls a n d ( i n d is t in c t) c o n c e r n e d . W e w il l w h e n w e ta lk o f in s t i tu t io n s w e w i ll d e a l w it h t h o s e m a t te r s l a te r o n w h e n w e r e f e r to P o r t f o l io C o m m i t te e s , P a r li a m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: Ev e n o r g a n s o f s t a t e w h o h a v e a d u ty t o d is c h a r g e c o n s ti t u ti o n a l m a n d a te o f d e a l in g w i t h t h e – t h e ( i n d is t in c t) . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d to y o u r c r e d i t a s i s – a s e m e r g e s fr o m th e – t h e c o u r t c a s e s th a t a r e b e fo r e th e C h a ir p e r s o n y o u to o k o n s o m e o f t h e s e in s t i tu t io n s . board. Yo u to o k o n t h e M i n i s t e r w h e n s h e d is s o lv e d y o u r Yo u to o k o n t h e H AW K S w h e n t h e y r e fu s e d t o m a k e c e r t a in in v e s t i g a t io n s . M R M O L E F E : I f y o u s a w C h a ir p e r s o n th a t it is w h a t w e d i d – I d id w e l l Page 111 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 r e p r e s e n ti n g t h e b o a r d o f d ir e c t o r s , t h e b o a r d o f c o n tr o l o f P a s s e n g e r R a il A g e n c y o f S o u t h A fr ic a . W e ll f ir s tl y t h a t y o u k n o w th e – w e h a d g o n e in t o d e ta il e d in v e s t i g a t io n , la i d b e f o r e t h e H AW K S . e v i d e n c e i n le v e r a r c h fil e s . Vo lu m e s o f E v e n m a d e a v a i la b l e t o th e m f o r e n s ic c a p a c i ty s o t h a t t h e y c o u l d a n a l y s e i n s t a n c e s o f – o f c o r r u p t io n a n d a ls o b e a b l e t o f o l lo w t h e f u n d s o f c o u r s e a n d c o l la b o r a t e w i th o t h e r s t a te i n s ti t u ti o n s w h ic h h a d th a t r e s p o n s i b ili t y. B u t o f c o u r s e i t is n o w a m a t te r o f r e c o r d th a t th e y r e f u s e d to d o t h e ir j o b . S e c o n d ly w e a s a b o a r d w e – w e r e j e c t e d a n a t te m p t o f a b u s e o f o ff ic e b y t h e E x e c u t iv e 10 A u t h o r i ty t o m u z z le t h e b o a r d a n d p r e v e n t i t fr o m d o i n g w h a t w a s r i g h t in d is c h a r g i n g i ts f id u c i a r y d u t i e s . A n d in t h i s i n s t a n c e w e w il l l a t e r d e a l w i th w h a t t h e M i n i s te r d i d . T h e t h ir d a s p e c t is w h a t t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e w h o s e r e s p o n s ib il i ty is t o a s s e s s t h e w o r k o f t h e s e a l l i m p o r t a n t s t a t e o w n e d c o m p a n y o b je c tiv e l y a n d t o t a k e to g e th e r w h a t t h e b o a r d o f d ir e c to r s c o r r e c ti v e m e a s u r e s w h ic h w o u ld s t r e n g th e n t h e Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa and that of course it not h a p p e n e d a n d I – I w r o t e to t h e S p e a k e r o f P a r li a m e n t o n b e h a l f o f t h e b o a r d t o a s k f o r a p u b l ic in q u i r y o n m a l a d m i n is tr a ti o n in P R A S A a n d o f c o u r s e t h e ir r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n th e M i n is t e r a n d t h e b o a r d o f 20 d ir e c t o r s . S i m i la r ly I w r o t e t o t h e P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e o n Tr a n s p o r t a g a in a s k i n g th a t th a t ( in d is ti n c t) d is tr a c t i ts r e s p o n s i b i li ty i n a f a r m o r e d i g n i fi e d w a y a n d in a p r o f e s s i o n a l m a n n e r. Al l o f t h a t is d e t a i l e d in I a m s u r e C o u n s e l w il l r e fe r m e t o t h o s e d o c u m e n t s . C o u n s e l I m i g h t ju s t g o o n a n d o n . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Page 112 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 M R M O L E F E : I m u s t a ll o w y o u to le a d m e . CHAIRPERSON: W e ll I w a s a b o u t to s a y m a y b e h e s h o u l d – C o u n s e l s h o u l d h a v e a ll o w e d y o u to c o m e a t t h e r ig h t t i m e t o t h o s e i s s u e s b e c a u s e t h e y a r e v e r y i m p o r t a n t is s u e s a n d I m y s e l f a m v e r y in t e r e s t e d in y o u r e v i d e n c e w it h r e g a r d t o t h o s e e ff o r ts th a t y o u h a v e m a d e a n d t h e q u e s ti o n o f la c k o f s u p p o r t th a t y o u t a lk a b o u t fr o m q u a r t e r s w h e r e y o u e x p e c t e d s u p p o r t a n d a s y o u s a y f a i l u r e t o p e r fo r m c o n s ti t u ti o n a l o b li g a ti o n s b y c e r t a in b o d ie s . S o – s o . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . 10 CHAIRPERSON: S o w h e n y o u c o m e – w h e n y o u c o m e to t h a t p o i n t I a m – I w i ll b e v e r y i n t e r e s te d i n th o s e p a r t s . Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : M r M o le f e ju s t i n o r d e r t o u n d e r s t a n d th e s t r u c t u r e o f t h e a ffi d a v i t y o u d o n o t d e a l w i t h m a tt e r s n e c e s s a r ily i n a c h r o n o lo g ic a l o r d e r y o u d e a l w i t h t h e m i n t e r m s o f d i ff e r e n t s u b j e c ts . A m I c o r r e c t? MR MOLEF E: That is correct yes. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A m o n g t h e s u b j e c ts t h a t y o u r a i s e a r e th e p r o b le m s t h a t P R A S A – t h a t t h e n e w b o a r d e n c o u n te r e d a ft e r i t w a s a p p o i n t e d i n A u g u s t 2 0 1 4 . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? I a m j u s t g o i n g th r o u g h i t 20 s o w e c a n d e a l w i t h e a c h o n e t h a t w e h a v e a r o a d m a p fo r w h o e v e r i s lis t e n i n g a s t o w h a t is c o m i n g n e x t. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n y o u a g a in – y o u t h e n d e a l w i t h a n a tt e m p t b y M r M o o d l e y to c a p tu r e y o u p e r s o n a l ly. ju s t – I a m j u s t g o i n g th r o u g h it . Page 113 of 124 It i s a l l t h e r e I a m 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n y o u d e a l w i t h th e d e t e r io r a t io n in t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e tw e e n y o u a n d M r M o n ta n a – w e ll y o u a n d t h e b o a r d o n o n e h a n d a n d Mr M o n ta n a o n th e o th e r. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th e n y o u a ls o s a y t h a t y o u f o u n d c e r t a in v e r y w o r r i e d fe a t u r e s a b o u t t h e g o v e r n a n c e i n c lu d in g s o m e q u it e l u c r a tiv e c o n tr a c ts th a t h a d b e e n c o n c lu d e d j u s t b e f o r e o u r b o a r d to o k o ffi c e . M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u d e t a il th e m . T h e n y o u s a y a f t e r Mr M o n ta n a l e f t t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t c a ll e d y o u t o a m e e t in g w h e r e h e w a s a tt e m p t in g t o p e r s u a d e y o u a n d t h e b o a r d to r e i n s t a t e M r M o n t a n a n o t w i t h s t a n d in g th a t h e h a d h a n d e d i n h is r e s i g n a t io n and the r e s ig n a ti o n h a d b e e n a c c e p t e d b y t h e b o a r d ? MR MOLEFE: T h a t i s c o r r e c t a n d b y t h e w a y I n e e d t o a ls o t o s t a te Counsel that … A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u m u s t p l e a s e a d d r e s s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n ( in d is ti n c t) . MR MOLEFE: 20 C h a ir p e r s o n th a t in r e a li t y M r M o n t a n a ’s c o n tr a c t w a s e n d in g o n t h e 3 1 M a r c h 2 0 1 5 . I t i s t h e r e f o r e a m i s n o m e r t o e v e n ta lk o f h i m r e s ig n i n g b u t th a t is w h a t h e s a i d t o u s . CHAIRPERSON: Oh. M R M O L E F E : B e c a u s e h e h a d a c t u a l ly r e q u e s t e d t h a t h e b e a ll o w e d to w o r k w i th th e b o a r d f o r a n o t h e r s i x m o n t h s t o a s s i s t t h e b o a r d i n i ts s e a r c h f o r a n e w G r o u p C E O . A n d i t is i n t h a t c o n t e x t th e r e f o r e th a t w e Page 114 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 a l lo w e d h i m to s t a y lo n g e r a n d w e a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t th e 1 5 J u ly. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h b u t t h a t i s i m p o r t a n t t o n o t e b e c a u s e w h e n I w a s r e a d i n g h e r e I w a s j u s t s a y i n g r e f e r e n c e s to le t t e r o f r e s ig n a ti o n , r e s ig n a ti o n a n d a c c e p ta n c e o f r e s i g n a ti o n . S o t h a t is w h a t t h e l e t t e r s a i d b u t h is te r m w a s c o m in g – h is c o n tr a c t w a s c o m i n g t o a n e n d a n d there was no need to resign. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M R M O L E F E : J a s a v e th a t h e c o u ld o f c o u r s e ( i n d is t in c t ) w h a t h e s a i d 10 w a s a c o m m i t m e n t h e m a d e to s e r v e a n e x tr a s i x m o n t h s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M O L E F E : A n d t h a t h e w a n t e d t o u s e t h a t s ix m o n t h s to a s s is t t h e board of directors. C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M O L E F E : T h e b o a r d o f c o n tr o l in h i s s e a r c h fo r a n e w C E O . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . MR MOLEFE: B u t o f c o u r s e i n – i n h in d s i g h t n o w a ft e r t h e in v e s t i g a t io n s h a d h a p p e n e d it is n o w c l e a r to m e t h a t h e w a n t e d th e s ix m o n t h s to c o n ti n u e c o v e r i n g u p t h e c o r r u p t a c ti v i ti e s t h a t h a d t a k e n 20 p l a c e u n d e r h is w a tc h . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : T h e n y o u d e a l w i t h t h e fa c t th a t y o u m a d e s e v e r a l a tt e m p ts a n d y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d t o t h e m – t a k e t h e H AW K S t o c o u r t t o g e t th e – t o t a k e t h e M i n i s t e r to c o u r t – t o t a k e – t o r e a c h o u t to th e S p e a k e r to h a v e a p r o p e r in v e s t i g a t io n in t o m a t te r s c o n c e r n i n g P R A S A Page 115 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 a n d o n e a c h o f th o s e o c c a s io n s y o u w e r e s p u r n e d e ff e c t iv e ly ? M R M O L E F E : I t is s o . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e n fi n a l ly y o u – y o u l a m e n t th e f a c t t h a t t h e board was a ll o w e d to e ff e c ti v e ly d is i n te g r a te because no new a p p o i n t m e n ts w e r e m a d e a n d s i n c e y o u r b o a r d h a s b e e n d i s s o lv e d e ffe c tiv e l y t h e r e h a s b e e n n o p e r m a n e n t b o a r d ? M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A n d I t h in k a t t h a t p o i n t i t h a d b e c o m e c le a r t o m e t h a t I w a s n o w b e i n g c o n s i d e r e d a s t h e m a i n o b s ta c l e b y t h e g o v e r n m e n t a n d t h e M i n i s t e r a n d i n o r d e r t o g iv e t h i s 10 in d i v i d u a l w h o i s a n ( in d is ti n c t) n e w t o th e b o a r d o f i ts d ir e c t o r s m a k e t h e b o a r d n o t t o h a v e a q u o r u m i n w h i c h c a s e t h e n it c o u l d n o t v a li d l y make decisions. A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o w d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r e v i d e n c e Mr M o le f e w e w il l d e a l w it h t w o i m p o r t a n t is s u e s w a s – i m p o r t a n t p r o v is io n s . O n e is t h e p r o v i s i o n s o f t h e s u c c e s s i o n o f S o u t h A fr ic a n Tr a n s p o r t S e r v i c e s A c t a n d th e n a ls o th e b o a r d c h a r t e r b e c a u s e t h a t t e l ls y o u t h e d iv is io n o f p o w e r b e tw e e n t h e M i n is te r a n d t h e b o a r d . B u t le t u s d e a l w it h t h e m w h e n th e y b e c o m e r e l e v a n t . O k a y. A n d t h e n … C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . 20 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d t h e n y o u t h e n s a y t h a t P R A S A i s a b i t o f a n u n u s u a l s ta t e o w n e d e n t i ty b e c a u s e i t f a ll s u n d e r t h e M in is t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t a s o p p o s e d to t h e M i n is t e r o f P u b li c E n te r p r is e s a s d o m o s t o f t h e o t h e r m a j o r s t a t e o w n e d e n ti ti e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n Mr S o n i . A D V VA S S O N I S C : O h s o r r y. Page 116 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u s t a r ti n g to d e a l … A D V VA S S O N I S C : P a r a g r a p h … C H A I R P E R S O N : To l i n k i t o n t h e e v id e n c e a n d y o u f in is h o u tl i n i n g . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . CHAIRPERSON: The road map. A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s s o r r y. CHAIRPERSON: O k a y a lr i g h t . O k a y t h a t is w h e r e – w h i c h – I th i n k y o u c a n a s k t h e q u e s ti o n a g a i n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : 10 Ye s . S o w i th w e d e a l t w i t h p a r a g r a p h 8 w h ic h d e a ls w i t h th e l e g i s l a ti o n t h a t w e w i ll r e f e r t o a n d th e n i n p a r a g r a p h 9 y o u m a k e t h e p o in t t h a t u n lik e o t h e r S O E ’s P R A S A f a l ls u n d e r t h e g e n e r a l a u th o r it y o f th e M i n i s t e r o f Tr a n s p o r t . W h y d o y o u t h in k th a t t h a t i s a n i m p o r t a n t is s u e t o r a i s e ? M R M O L E F E : T h e – I th in k ( i n d is t in c t) o n P R A S A w a s n o t e n t it y w h o s e f u n d a m e n t a l o b je c t iv e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s t o g e n e r a te i t w a s a n e n t i ty t h a t w a s p r o m o t in g p u b lic g o o d a n d a s a tr a n s p o r t o r g a n is a t i o n I t h i n k t h e r e f o r e it w a s f o r th a t r e a s o n t h a t t h e g o v e r n m e n t c h o s e t o p l a c e i t u n d e r t h e M i n i s t r y o f Tr a n s p o r t a n d t h o s e t h a t h a d t h e p o t e n ti a l to g e n e r a te g r o w th i n t h e e c o n o m y a n d g e n e r a te t h e k in d o f a ffe c t s w h ic h 20 w o u ld a u g m e n t t h e f is c u s w o u l d t h e n fa ll u n d e r P u b lic E n t e r p r i s e s . T h e r e a r e C h a ir p e r s o n o t h e r s t h a t f a ll u n d e r d e p a r t m e n ts i f y o u th in k o f M i n e r a ls a n d M in e r a l R e s o u r c e s a n d E n e r g y. Yo u w o u l d h a v e th e – w h a t u s e d t o b e k n o w n a s t h e C e n tr a l E n e r g y F u n d s a n d th e s tr a te g i c ( in d is ti n c t) a s w e ll a s P e tr o l e u m C o r p o r a t io n o f S o u th A f r i c a P e tr o S A t h e y w o u l d f a ll u n d e r t h e M in e r a l s a n E n e r g y. Page 117 of 124 Yo u w o u l d s in g u l a r 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 o th e r s f a ll i n g fo r e x a m p l e u n d e r d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n ts . A m s c o r w o u l d f a ll u n d e r t h e M i n i s te r o f D e f e n c e . T h e A r m a m e n ts C o r p o r a ti o n o f S o u th A fr ic a . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s t h e n y o u t h e n m a k e th e p o i n t t h a t t h e A c c o u n ti n g A u t h o r i t y o f P R A S A i s t h e b o a r d . M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : J a a n d w e w i ll d e a l w it h t h e l e g is l a ti o n i n t e r m s o f w h ic h t h e b o a r d is to b e a p p o i n t e d a t a l a t e r s ta g e . I j u s t w a n t t o s e t t h e s c e n a r io f o r a s f a r a s – b e c a u s e p r o c u r e m e n t is a n i m p o r t a n t is s u e 10 y o u s a y t h a t a s t h e A c c o u n ti n g A u th o r it y t h e b o a r d h a d t o i n v o lv e i ts e l f in e n s u r i n g t h a t t h e r e w a s – t h e r e w e r e p r o p e r p r o c e s s e s f o r th e procurement of goods in terms of the PFM A. M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d th e n y o u s a y i t is … C H A I R P E R S O N : P l e a s e tr y a n d g e t h i m t o g iv e e v id e n c e . G e t h i m t o g iv e t o m e t h e o n e g iv i n g t h e e v i d e n c e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Ye s . N o w w h a t a r e P R A S A’s m a i n o b j e c ts i n b u s i n e s s ? I f y o u l o o k a t p a r a g r a p h 1 0 y o u d e a l w i t h th a t i s s u e . M R M O L E F E : I h a v e a l r e a d y s a i d C h a ir p e r s o n t h e p r i m a r y m a n d a t e o f 20 P R A S A is th a t o f n e w m o v i n g c o m m u t e r s w i t h i n t o a n d fr o m S o u t h A fr ic a . L a r g e n u m b e r s o f w o r k e r s w h o a r e c r i t ic a l fo r ( i n d is t in c t ) p r o d u c t io n in t h e b u s i n e s s . B u t it a ls o h a s a s e c o n d a r y m a n d a t e . T h e s e c o n d a r y m a n d a t e w a s t h a t o f – le t m e f ir s t s a y t h a t m o v i n g th o s e w o r k e r s h a d t o b e d o n e t h r o u g h t h e r a i l o p e r a ti o n s t o a le s s e r e x t e n t the Oropex as the base subsidiary of P RASA. Page 118 of 124 Then the secondary 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 m a n d a t e w a s t o l o o k a t th e a s s e ts t h a t P R A S A h a d a n d d o w h a t is n o r m a l ly i n th e b u s i n e s s ( i n d i s t i n c t) c a ll e d s w e a t i n g t h o s e a s s e ts . G e n e r a ti n g r e v e n u e o u t o f t h o s e a s s e ts – o p t i m is i n g i t s o th a t P R A S A c o u l d g e n e r a t e i ts o w n in c o m e . A D V VA S S O N I S C : Th o s e a r e t h e m a i n a i m s o r p r in c i p l e o r t h e o b j e c ts o f P R A S A ? MR MOLEF E: That is correct. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u t h e n s a y t o t h e e x t e n t … CHAIRPERSON: 10 M a y b e b e f o r e t h a t Mr S o n i i f y o u a r e a b l e to m a y b e y o u c a n ju s t g iv e m e a p i c tu r e i n t e r m s o f s u b s i d i a r i e s o f P R A S A . Yo u d o n o t h a v e t o m e n t io n a ll o f th e m i f t h e r e a r e m a n y. T h e – s o m e o f t h e – w h e t h e r it h a s g o t s u b s i d ia r i e s a n d w h a t I h a v e h e a r d A u t o p a x – something about. MR MOLEFE: U n fo r tu n a t e ly Chairperson PRASA had only two s u b s i d ia r i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h is t h a t s o ? M R M O L E F E : I n t e r s it e a n d A u to p a x . C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y, o k a y. M R M O L E F E : T h e b o a r d s o f w h ic h h a d t h e ir o w n b o a r d o f d ir e c to r s . 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . M r S o n i I in t e r r u p te d y o u . A D V VA S S O N I S C : N o t h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . N o w th e y w o u l d e a c h h a v e th e i r o w n b o a r d o f c o n tr o l a s o p p o s e d t o P R A S A’s b o a r d o f c o n tr o l . M R M O L E F E : T h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . A D V VA S S O N I S C : S o t h e y e n jo y th e ir m e a s u r e o f i n d e p e n d e n c e Page 119 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 n o t w i t h s t a n d in g t h a t th e y w e r e s u b s i d i a r i e s o f P R A S A ? M R M O L E F E : I t is s o C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I n e e d to s t a t e t h a t w h e n w e g o t o n t o t h e b o a r d o f c o n tr o l o f P R A S A i t b e c a m e i m m e d i a te ly c le a r t h a t t h a t i n d e p e n d e n c e w a s a ffe c te d b y t h e f a c t t h a t t h e G r o u p C E O o f P R A S A w a s p u t a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f a l l o f t h o s e s u b s id i a r i e s . And our a r g u m e n t w a s t h a t th a t d id n o t ( in d is ti n c t) w e ll f o r g o o d c o r p o r a t e g o v e r n a n c e . I t c a n n o t b e i n t h o s e s u b s i d i a r i e s a n d a c c o u n ti n g h i ms e lf when it comes to the main board. A D V VA S S O N I S C : W h e n y o u s a y h e w a s t h e C h a ir p e r s o n y o u t a lk i n g 10 a b o u t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d o f A u t o p a x a n d I n t e r s it e ? MR MOLEF E: That is correct. A D V VA S S O N I S C : B u t t h e y h a d t h e ir o w n C E O ’s ? MR MOLEFE: Th e y h a d th e ir o w n C E O ’s C h a ir. T h e y h a d t h e ir o w n b o a r d s a n d r e l e v a n t s ta t u to r y c o m m i t t e e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s q u it e – q u i te s tr a n g e o r in t e r e s ti n g . S o t h e Group CEO of PRASA would be the Group CEO of PRA SA then there w o u ld b e t h o s e t w o s u b s id ia r i e s o f P R A S A a n d t h e y w o u l d e a c h h a v e t h e ir o w n b o a r d a n d w h e r e t h e y w o u l d a l s o h a v e t h e ir o w n C E O ’s b u t t h e G r o u p C E O o f P R A S A w o u l d b e t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e b o a r d o f 20 e a c h o f t h e s e s u b s i d ia r i e s a n d t h a t b o a r d – th e C E O o f e a c h – o f e a c h s u b s i d ia r y w o u ld e ff e c ti v e ly r e p o r t to t h e G r o u p C E O o f P R A S A . Of c o u r s e t h e y r e p o r t t o t h e b o a r d b u t i f y o u a r e C h a ir p e r s o n y o u h a v e w h a t is m o r e in t e r a c t io n w i t h t h e C E O t h a n o th e r m e m b e r s o f th e board? M R M O L E F E : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n . I n e e d t o h a s t e n to s a y t h a t Page 120 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 w e s t o p p e d th a t k i n d o f a r r a n g e m e n t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M O L E F E : W e f e lt t h a t it w a s i n c o r r e c t . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M O L E F E : W e e v e n a r g u e d t h a t d ir e c t o r s i n t h e m a in b o a r d s h o u l d n o t s i t o n th e b o a r d o f t h e s u b s id ia r i e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M R M O L E F E : S o t h a t t h e y n e e d e d to h a v e th e ir o w n i n d e p e n d e n c e . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u . 10 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d la t e r i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t i n f a c t y o u p o in t o u t t h a t t h a t d e c is i o n w a s t a k e n s o o n a f t e r M r M o n t a n a ’s te r m o f o ffi c e c a m e t o a n e n d a l t h o u g h h e c o n t i n u e d . I a m ju s t g o i n g f u r t h e r t o l i n k i t u p w i t h w h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d n o w. M R M O L E F E : I t is c o r r e c t . H e w a s s ti ll t h e r e o r – o n t h e b o a r d s e r v i n g w h a t h e s a i d w a s s ix m o n th s w h ic h o f c o u r s e w e d i d n o t a l l o w t o r e a c h h is f in a l i ty. C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e – th e id e a t h a t t h e G r o u p C E O o f P R A S A w o u ld b e C h a i r p e r s o n o f e a c h o f t h e b o a r d s o f e a c h o f th e t w o s u b s id i a r i e s w a s t h a t s o m e th i n g t h a t h a d o c c u r r e d a s y o u u n d e r s to o d i t w h e n y o u 20 c a m e in a s a p r a c t ic a l m e a s u r e w h ic h w a s n o t p r o v i d e d f o r i n a n y o ffic i a l d o c u m e n t t h a t th a t is h o w i t s h a ll – i t w o u ld b e ? O r w a s t h e r e s o m e t h i n g i n t h e a r t ic l e s o f a s s o c i a ti o n o r s o m e o t h e r d o c u m e n t t h a t s a i d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e b o a r d o f t h is s u b s i d i a r y w o u ld b e t h e G r o u p CEO of PRASA? MR MOLEFE: M y r e c o l le c t i o n C h a i r p e r s o n is t h a t t h e r e w a s n o l e g a l Page 121 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 in s t r u m e n t t h a t a u t h o r is e d th e a p p o i n t m e n t o f t h e G r o u p C E O a s C h a ir m a n o f th e s u b s i d ia r i e s . CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d y o u t h e n s a y a t t h e e n d o f p a r a g r a p h 1 0 th a t t h e d e liv e r y w a s n o t th e r e a n d m a y I ju s t a s k y o u w h a t w a s t h e c o n s e q u e n c e o f th e fa il u r e o f P R A S A t o f u l fi l i ts m a n d a t e ? M R M O L E F E : Th e c o n s e q u e n c e s C h a ir p e r s o n o f P R A S A f a il in g to fu l fil it s m a n d a t e w a s a h u g e o n e . I t m e a n t t h a t th e e ff e c ti v e a n d e ffic i e n t tr a n s p o r t s e r v i c e s n e c e s s a r y t o f e r r y t h e w o r k e r s t o w o r k a n d g o w a s 10 i m p a c te d . T h e – w e h a v e lo t s o f p r o b l e m s o f f a i l u r e s i n r e s p e c t o f ( in d is ti n c t) s y s t e m , p o o r m a i n t e n a n c e o f r a i l i n fr a s tr u c t u r e . m e a n t t h e r e f o r e th a t t h e c o m m u t e r s h a d n o p r o te c ti o n . So it – it Now the – I m u s t s a y t h a t f u r th e r w i th th is k i n d o f f a il u r e t h e C i v i l S o c i e t y O r g a n is a ti o n ( i n d is ti n c t) t o t a k e u p o n t h e m s e l v e s t h e d e c i s i o n t o a p p r o a c h th e ( in d is ti n c t) P R A S A t o a c t in a m a n n e r t h a t p r o t e c t e d t h e r ig h ts o f c o m m u t e r s a n d th e p u b lic . As I u n d e r s t a n d C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e w i ll b e d e t a il e d e v i d e n c e l e d b y o t h e r w it n e s s e s in t h is r e g a r d . A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e ll c e r t a i n ly M r A c h m a t is g o i n g to g iv e e v i d e n c e a b o u t w h y t h e y w e r e e ff e c t iv e ly p r o m p t e d t o ( i n d is t in c t ) . C h a ir p e r s o n I 20 a m t h e n g o i n g t o g o t o t h e n e x t s e c ti o n o f th e a ffi d a v it w h ic h i s th e e a r ly d a y s a t P R A S A . I s e e i t i s fo u r o ’c lo c k I d o n o t w h a t y o u r v i e w i s a b o u t w h e t h e r I s h o u l d s ta r t – it i s u n li k e ly w e w i ll fi n i s h th a t s e c ti o n t o d a y. CHAIRPERSON: W e n o r m a lly f in is h b u t w e g o b e y o n d fo u r o ’c l o c k w h e n i t is n e c e s s a r y to d o s o . D o y o u w a n t to c o v e r s o m e s e c ti o n Page 122 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 b e f o r e w e a d j o u r n o r w h a t is y o u r a t t i tu d e ? M R M O L E F E : I w o u l d l ik e to – t o t a k e t h is – l ik e t o t a k e a b i t o f t i m e t o c o n s i d e r h o w to c o n d e n s e th is . C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y. A D V VA S S O N I S C : B e c a u s e a l t h o u g h it is n e c e s s a r y b a c k g r o u n d o n e c a n s tic k t o c e r t a i n fa c t s . CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d I a m w o n d e r i n g i f I c o u l d t a k e l a te r t h i s e v e n i n g t o d o th a t . 10 C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A D V VA S S O N I S C : A n d s o r t o f p r e s s a h e a d m o r e q u ic k ly t o m o r r o w m o r n in g . C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u w o u ld p r e fe r t h a t w e a d j o u r n n o w ? M R M O L E F E : W e a d j o u r n n o w o n th is . C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t. I t h i n k th e n w e s h o u ld a d jo u r n n o w a n d t h e n s t a r t a t t e n t o m o r r o w. W e s h o u ld b e fi n e w i th s ta r t i n g a t te n . W e s h o u l d b e a b le t o – d o y o u c o n t e m p la t e t h a t w e w i ll f in is h t o m o r r o w w i t h Mr M o le f e ’s e v i d e n c e o r y o u t h in k w e m i g h t g o b e y o n d th a t ? A D V VA S S O N I S C : W e t h i n k i t p r o b a b ly w i ll s p i ll o v e r i n t o Fr i d a y. 20 C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y. O k a y, n o th a t i s f in e . T h a t i s f i n e w i t h y o u M r M o l e fe ? M R M O L E F E : I t is fi n e . C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is f i n e o k a y. A l r i g h t w e w i ll a d j o u r n fo r th e d a y n o w it i s a b o u t o n e m in u t e p a s t f o u r a n d w e w ill r e s u m e t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g a t t e n o ’c l o c k . Page 123 of 124 11 MARCH 2020 – DAY 221 A D V VA S S O N I S C : A s i t p l e a s e s . C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n . R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e . I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 1 2 M A R C H 2 0 2 0 10 Page 124 of 124