C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

10 JUNE 2019

D AY 1 0 9

20

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
PROCEEDINGS ON 10 JUNE 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r M o k o e n a , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : G o o d m o r n i n g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ar e y o u r e a d y t o p r o c e e d ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e a r e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M r M a z i b u k o th e o a t h y o u to o k l a s t w e e k
c o n ti n u e s u n til y o u h a v e fi n is h e d y o u r e v i d e n c e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : N o t e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Mr M a z ib u k o b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d w h e r e

w e le f t o ff o n Fr id a y I w o u l d lik e y o u t o p l e a s e r e c a p f o r u s s o m e o f t h e
c r u c i a l a s p e c t s o f y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u c o n v e y e d t o t h e C h a ir b u t i n
a s u m m a r y f o r m ? L e t u s d o t h a t w i t h r e f e r e n c e t o p a g e 1 6 a n d p le a s e
c a p tu r e fo r u s th e e s s e n c e o f p a r a g r a p h 3 6 a n d 3 7 o f y o u r w i t n e s s
s t a te m e n t ? P a g e 3 6 – p a g e 1 6 C h a ir p a r a g r a p h 3 6 a n d 3 7 .
CHAIRPERSON: What page?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 16.
CHAIRPERSON: 16.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u m a y p r o c e e d s i m p ly t o y o u k n o w

g iv e u s th e e s s e n c e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O f w h a t y o u a r e c o n v e y in g t o t h e C h a ir.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: In those paragraphs.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h a n k s C h a ir. J u s t t o r e c a p . D u r in g
t h e p e r i o d o f 2 1 to 2 8 M a y 2 0 1 5 H o m i x h a d e ffe c t e d 1 3 c r o s s b o r d e r
f o r e i g n e x c h a n g e tr a n s a c t i o n s v ia M e r c a n ti le w i t h a n a g g r e g a t e v a lu e
o f s o m e 5 1 .8 m i lli o n a t t h e r e l e v a n t t i m e a n d d e ta il s o f th e s e c r o s s
b o r d e r e x c h a n g e tr a n s a c t io n r e c o r d s a r e s e t o u t i n th e s p r e a d s h e e t
annexed marked as SEM7.

W e w e n t th o u g h t t h i s .

I do not know

w h e t h e r t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w o u l d l ik e m e t o g o b a c k .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o , n o y o u h a v e a lr e a d y d o n e th a t I ju s t
10

want you to…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja no ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : J u s t g i v e u s th e s u m m a r y h i g h l e v e l .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a . S o I m u s t s a y t h a t t h e s e fo r t h e
2 1 t o 2 8 w e r e a b l e t o g o t h r o u g h u n fo r t u n a t e ly w i t h M e r c a n t il e B a n k
b e c a u s e a s I a l lu d e d t o t h a t t h e b a n k s a r e t h e fir s t li n e o f d e fe n c e .
Yo u k n o w w h e n y o u ta lk a b o u t m o n e y la u n d e r in g s o m e t i m e s y o u k n o w
t h a t is w h y t h e r e n e e d s t o b e v ig il a n t b e c a u s e t h e y t a lk a b o u t t h e f ir s t
p a r t i f p l a c e m e n t a n d i ts la y e r i n g a n d th e n w e t a l k a b o u t i n te g r a ti o n .
O n c e y o u h a v e p l a c e d s o w h e n s o m e b o d y tr ie s to p l a c e a fr a u d u l e n t

20

tr a n s a c ti o n o f s o m e s o r t a n d i t is n o t p ic k e d u p r i g h t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g
t h e n t h e n e x t s te p i t w il l b e l a y e r in g . Yo u w i ll s e e w h e n w e a r e l o o k in g
at other accounts of Homix in – at Standard Bank at a later stage so…
A n d th e n t h e y tr i e d b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e y w e r e s u c c e s s f u l a n d t h e n t h e y
tr i e d o n t h e 2 9 t h t o p u s h a n o th e r t h r e e t r a n s a c ti o n s o v e r t h e 1 3 t h a t
t h e y h a v e a lr e a d y d o n e .

I t is o n ly t h e n w h e n M e r c a n t il e r e f e r r e d th e

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tr a n s a c ti o n t o t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n R e s e r v e B a n k a n d t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n
R e s e r v e B a n k b l o c k e d th o s e tr a n s a c ti o n s w h ic h th r e e o f t h e m c a m e t o
a n a m o u n t o f 4 .4 m il li o n a p p r o x i m a te ly a n d th e y w e r e p r e v e n te d fr o m
doing that.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d t h e n fr o m t h e r e t h e p r o c e s s o f

in v e s t i g a t io n s t a r te d a s to w h a t w a s g o i n g o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , y e s . A n d I t h i n k y o u a l s o c a p tu r e
t h a t e s s e n c e i f y o u r e f e r to p a g e 1 7 C h a ir I a m r e f e r r i n g t h e w it n e s s t o
10

p a g e 1 7 a n d a ls o c a p t u r e fo r u s y o u k n o w a t h ig h l e v e l w h a t y o u a r e
s t a ti n g o n p a r a g r a p h 4 2 ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o in p a r a g r a p h 4 2 i s th e m o v e m e n t ’s
r e fe r e n c e n u m b e r w h e r e I ju s t e x p l a i n t h a t i t i s th e n u m b e r t h a t is
g e n e r a te d b y S A R S .

Yo u k n o w i t is a S A R S c u s t o m d e c l a r a ti o n s o

w h e n a c u s to m e r d e c la r e s t h e g o o d s a n d w a n ts to c l a i m t h e g o o d s
t h e r e h a s t o b e w h a t i s c a l le d a m o v e m e n t ’s r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r. S o t h i s
n u m b e r c a n a ls o b e g e n e r a te d b y a g e n t s y o u k n o w f o r i m p o r te r s a n d
e x p o r t e r s y o u k n o w i n t e r m s o f t h e ir e l e c tr o n ic d a ta in t e r c h a n g e
in f o r m a ti o n s y s t e m t h a t t h e y u s e a m o n g s t t h e m s e l v e s . A n d a m o n g s t u s
20

a n d th e b a n k s b e i n g t h e R e s e r v e B a n k w e u s e w h a t is c a l l e d t h e i m p o r t
v e r i fic a ti o n s y s te m w h e r e w e c a n tr a c k . S o th is is l ik e a n I D n u m b e r o f
a t r a n s a c t io n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W h e r e y o u h a v e d o n e t h e i m p o r t t h a t
t o tr a c k i t y o u k n o w y o u h a v e t o h a v e – s o t h a t is w h y w e t a l k a b o u t th e

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v a l i d a t io n t h a t in a d d i t io n t o th e t h r e e m o v e m e n t r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r s
w h o w e r e s u p p l i e d b y H o m ix t o j u s ti fy th e 1 6 tr a n s a c ti o n s w h i le th e y
w e r e s e e n to b e v a l id b u t t h e g o o d s th a t w e r e c le a r e d a t t h e p o r t s a t
t h a t p a r t ic u l a r t i m e f o r a p a y m e n t o f 5 1 . 8 m i ll io n th e y d i d n o t m a tc h
w h a t w a s p a i d o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y w h i c h w a s 5 1 . 8 .

So the goods that

w e r e c l e a r e d w e r e o n ly R 5 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n la s tly i n a w a y o f s i m p ly
r e m i n d in g o u r s e lv e s o f y o u r e v i d e n c e o n F r id a y m a y I r e f e r y o u t o p a g e
19 paragraph 53.
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o p a r a g r a p h 5 3 th e r e w e s h o w
t w o d o c u m e n t s w h i c h o n t h e f a c e o f i t t h e y l o o k v e r y d i ff e r e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k w h e n y o u s a y 5 3 i t is li k e it is 5 . 3 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y 5 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 53.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 5 3 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Page 19 paragraph 53.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : 5 3 y e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A p o l o g i e s C h a ir m a n i t i s 5 3 .

So it

w a s S E M 1 4 a n d S E M 1 2 w h e r e th e S E M 1 2 w a s th e m ir r o r i m a g e o f
SEM14.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

T h e y d i d n o t l o o k t h e s a m e o n th e

f a c e v a l u e e s p e c i a l ly w h e n it g o e s t o t h e t o p b u t i n t h e m id d le t h e r e

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w e r e s o m e in f o r m a t io n th a t l o o k s v e r y s i m il a r h o w e v e r w e d is c o v e r e d
t h a t s o m e in f o r m a t io n w h e n i t c a m e t o t h e m a s s o f t h e g o o d s t o b e
i m p o r t e d th e v a l u e a n d th e to t a l a m o u n t d i ff e r e d q u i t e d r a s t ic a l ly. S o –
a n d th e S E M 1 4 w a s t h e a u t h e n ti c d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s s u p p li e d b y
T h u t h u k a S iz w e j u s t to p r o v e th a t h o w it w ill l o o k l ik e i f th e y h a v e d o n e
t h e tr a n s a c ti o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I n a n a u th e n t ic m a n n e r a n d t h e o n e

t h a t le d t o th e le a k a g e i n te r m s o f t h e m o n e y t h a t w e n t il le g a l ly o u t s i d e
10

w a s S E M 1 2 w i t h s o m e p a r t ic u l a r s th a t a r e s i m i l a r to t h e o n e w i t h
S E M 1 4 b u t w i th s o m e v a s t d i ff e r e n c e s h e r e a n d t h e r e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d a f te r i n te r r o g a ti n g S E M 1 2 a n d
SEM14
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t a k in g t h e C h a ir t h r o u g h t h e v a r io u s
d is c r e p a n c ie s y o u t h e n c o n c l u d e o n p a r a g r a p h 5 3 t h e l a s t l i n e y o u s a y
that:
“ I t fo ll o w s t h a t o n a b a l a n c e o f p r o b a b il i ti e s th e E T I r e le a s e s p r o v id e d
b y M e r c a n ti le – to M e r c a n t il e b y H o m ix w e r e fa ls if i e d . ”

20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: So – and those are the conclusions that
y o u a r r iv e d a t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A f t e r th a t a n a ly s is ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h e y w e r e f a ls i fi e d .

A s I s a y th a t

n o r m a l ly f a ls i fic a ti o n o f d o c u m e n t g o e s w i t h th e tr a d e b a s e m o n e y
la u n d e r in g t h a t th e r e is a n i n t e n ti o n h e r e t o u s e a tr a n s a c ti o n t h a t w a s
– t h a t w i ll lo o k l e g i t i m a te o n t h e f a c e o f i t b u t k n o w i n g t h a t th e
u n d e r l y i n g a c ti o n s u n d e r n e a th is t o h i d e s o m e n e f a r io u s a c t iv i t ie s th a t
a r e t a k in g p l a c e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

A lr i g h t .

N o w l e t u s p r o c e e d w it h y o u r

e v i d e n c e to d a y a n d d e a l w i th t h o s e a s p e c t s w h ic h y o u n e v e r d e a l t w it h
10

o n Fr id a y.

M a y I d o s o w i th r e fe r e n c e t o p a g e 2 1 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t

w h e r e b y y o u a r e li n k i n g t w o o t h e r e n t i ti e s to H o m i x tr a n s a c ti o n s , c a n
y o u p l e a s e t e l l u s m o r e a b o u t th o s e e n t i ti e s a n d h o w t h e y w e r e li n k e d
t o H o m ix tr a n s a c ti o n s ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s t h a n k s C h a ir.

If I may start at

p a r a g r a p h 5 9 w h e r e w e r e f e r t o e n t i ti e s t h a t w e r e u n d e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n
b y t h e F i n a n c i a l S u r v e i ll a n c e D e p a r t m e n t b e i n g Vip e r W h o l e s a l e s a n d
F G C C o m m o d it i e s a n d i n t h i s r e g a r d i t – M o r n i n g s ta r – M o r n i n g s t a r w a s
o n e o f th e c o m p a n i e s t h a t w a s r e g i s t e r e d in H o n g K o n g th a t I a ll u d e d
o n Fr i d a y t h a t g o t m o s t o f t h e m o n e y. R e m e m b e r t h a t th e m o n e y th a t
20

fl e w th e 5 1 . 8 m i ll io n 1 6 t r a n s a c t io n s t h e i n t e n t io n w a s 1 4 w a s s u p p o s e d
t o g o t o M o r n in g s t a r a n d 2 w e r e s u p p o s e d t o g o t o Y K A .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d w h a t is y o u k n o w s ig n i f ic a n t h e r e
is t h a t M o r n i n g s t a r, Vi p e r a n d F G C C o m m o d i t ie s s h a r e t h e s a m e s o l e
d ir e c t o r b e i n g M r M a h a s h v e r a n G o v e n d e r. S o w e j u s t w a n t t o h i g h li g h t

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t h a t b e c a u s e I t h i n k o n Fr i d a y th e C h a ir r a is e d s o m e y o u k n o w
e y e b r o w s w h e n I t a lk a b o u t t h a t .

Most of these companies they have

s o l e d ir e c to r s o f w h ic h t h e r e i s n o t h i n g w r o n g w i th t h a t b u t i t is a
c o m m o n t h r e a d a s t o w h y – I d o n o t k n o w w h y b e c a u s e w e d i d th e n
w h e n y o u lo o k a t p a r a g r a p h 6 0 a n d IC R I S C S C H o n g K o n g c o m p a n ie s
r e g is tr a ti o n s e a r c h w h i c h r e v e a l e d th a t Mr G o v e n d e r w a s t h e s o l e
d ir e c t o r o f M o r n i n g s t a r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d o n e o f t h e b e n e f ic ia r i e s t o w h o m
10

Homix had transferred funds abroad and then we have a copy of the
s e a r c h r e s u l ts in t e r m s o f A n n e x u r e S E M 1 6 i n t h a t r e g a r d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D id t h e y c o n d u c t a n y g e n u in e b u s i n e s s
these companies?

Do you know why these monies were paid to them

fr o m H o mi x ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e r e i s – a s w e a ll u d e d t o o n Fr i d a y
t h a t th e r e i s n o – t h e r e i s n o t m u c h o n li n e p r e s e n c e f o r th e s e
c o m p a n i e s s o e v e n t h e o n e s t h a t y o u k n o w y o u w il l s e e w h e n w e s t a r t
to look at the Standard Bank account.

Th e r e is li t t le o r n o o n li n e

p r e s e n c e f o r s o m e b o d y t o g e t s o m u c h m o n e y s o q u i c k ly a n d w h e n y o u
20

g o t h e r e b e c a u s e e v e n n o w y o u c a n t r y a n d d o t h e s e a r c h b u t t h e r e is
s o m u c h li t t le p r e s e n c e fo r t h is c o m p a n y.

S o i t s e e ms l ik e t h e y w e r e

r e g is t e r e d y o u k n o w a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ti m e a n d t h e n ta k e n o ff m a y b e
a ft e r t h e m o n e y h a s g o n e t h r o u g h .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w b e f o r e y o u m o v e o n to – I

want to take you to paragraph 63.

Are there any aspects of your

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
evidence Mr Mazibuko which you might seek to clarify what you
c o n v e y e d t o t h e C h a ir. Is th e r e a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u w a n t t o c la r i fy ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

J a s o w h a t I n e e d t o c l a r if y is t h a t

w i t h t h e is s u e o f f o r f e i t u r e o f tr a n s a c ti o n s .

S o w h e n li k e H o m i x w e

s t a r t e d t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ti m e f o r e a c h a n d e v e r y
a l le g e d p e r p e tr a t o r y o u k n o w y o u w i ll b e g iv e n t h r e e y e a r s th a t y o u
k n o w t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n a f t e r t h e b l o c k a g e o f m o n e y t h e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s
s t a r ts a n d th e n w h a t f o l l o w s t h e n w i ll b e t h e A u d i Al t e r a m P r i n c ip l e i n
t e r m s o f y o u a c t u a ll y b e i n g r e q u e s t e d c e r t a i n i n fo r m a ti o n t o m a k e s u r e
10

t h a t w e h e a r y o u r s id e i n t e r m s o f a c tu a lly h o w t h e tr a n s a c ti o n t o o k
p l a c e s o t h a t y o u k n o w y o u a r e n o t d is a d v a n ta g e d t h a t w e j u s t t a k e a
d e c is i o n w it h o u t – s o th e n y o u a r e s u p p o s e d t o c o m e b a c k to u s w i t h a
f u ll fr a n k a n d v e r if i a b le d is c l o s u r e . It y o u d o n o t d o t h a t o b v i o u s ly t h e
m a t t e r w il l p r o c e e d .

B u t t h e m a t t e r t h e y d o n o t j u s t f o ll o w i n a

s e q u e n c e i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t t h a t o n c e w e s t a r t b e c a u s e t h e r e is a –
t h e r e a r e h u n d r e d s o f th e s e in v e s ti g a t i o n s t h a t a r e t a k in g p l a c e s o y o u
fi n d t h a t y o u k n o w w e g o t s o m u c h fe w in v e s t ig a t o r s th e y a r e w o r k i n g
o n t h is , w o r k i n g o n t h a t b u t w h a t t h e y s h o u l d j u s t b e g u a r d i n g a g a in s t
is th a t th r e e y e a r s s i n c e t h e b l o c k a g e s h o u l d n o t l a p s e b e c a u s e i f it
20

la p s e s w e s h o u l d a c t u a l ly u n b l o c k th e m o n e y a n d s e n d i t b a c k to th e –
b u t it d o e s n o t h a p p e n b e c a u s e w e k e e p s o m e r e m in d e r c a r d s th a t
a c t u a lly. B u t th e n a f te r th e fo r f e i t u r e y o u k n o w w e u s e d t o h a v e a 9 0
d a y r e v ie w t h a t y o u c a n a c tu a lly t a k e u s o n r e v ie w f o r t h a t b u t t h e n
w h e n t h e p r o m o t io n o f A d m i n i s t r a t iv e J u s ti c e A c t c a m e in t o b e in g w e
a l ig n e d t h a t a n d w e m a d e i t 1 8 0 d a y s .

Page 9 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O h y e s n o w it is c la r i fi e d y e s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 y o u r e f e r t o f u r th e r
4 t r a n s a c t io n s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h i c h w e r e e ffe c te d b y to M o r n i n g s ta r

please

elaborate

you

know

can

you

to

th e

C h a ir

about

th o s e

tr a n s a c ti o n s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s t h e n o n p a r a g r a p h 6 3 d u r i n g 2 0 1 6
10

a ft e r w e i n t e r v e n e d i n t h e H o m ix m a t t e r a f u r th e r f o u r tr a n s a c t i o n s w e r e
e ffe c te d

to

Morningstar

by

four

private

i n d iv i d u a l s

i n v e s t in g

in

M o r n in g s t a r a n d t h e n w e li k e i n s t i tu t e d a n i n v e s ti g a t i o n i n t o t h e s e
tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t r e v e a le d f a l s e d o c u m e n t a t i o n w a s p r e s e n t e d t o t h e
r e l e v a n t b a n k in s u p p o r t o f t h e s e t r a n s a c t io n s a n d t h a t Mr S h e ld o n
Jack

Breedt

had

played

a

p iv o ta l

role

in

s u p p ly in g

th o s e

d o c u m e n t a ti o n s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w w e r e t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s i n a d d i ti o n
t o t h e 1 6 th a t y o u h a v e a lr e a d y … ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s th e s e w e r e …
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To l d th e C h a ir a b o u t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E v e n a f te r t h e 1 6 t r a n s a c t io n .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Th e r e w e r e f u r t h e r o n e s t h a t t h e y

w a n t e d t o e ff e c t ?

Page 10 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e r e w e r e f u r t h e r o n e s . S o h e r e t h e
d i ff e r e n c e is t h a t t h i s is n o t a c o m p a n y b u t i t i s in d iv i d u a ls t h a t a r e
s a y in g t h e y a r e i n v e s t in g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

As I said that you can invest one

in d i v i d u a l y o u c a n i n v e s t a b r o a d a n d a ll t h a t b u t t h e y h a d f a ls i fi e d
d o c u m e n t a ti o n a t t h e ir d i s p o s a l in te r m s o f – s o i t w a s d is c o v e r e d a n d
w e d i d – t h e d e p a r t m e n t a c t u a l ly t o o k t h e m a t te r t o in v e s ti g a t e a n d
then
10

we

tr ie d

and

blocked

th e ir

a c c o u n ts .

But

we

found

that

u n f o r t u n a t e ly s o m e o f t h e p e o p l e th a t w e r e i n v o l v e d h e r e w e r e i n v o lv e d
in o th e r c r i m i n a l a c tiv i ti e s o f m u r d e r w h e r e Mr M a t h e w B r e e d t a n d h is
b r o t h e r a c t u a l ly w e r e a r r e s t e d . S o t h a t a c t u a lly d e la y e d t h e p r o c e s s t o
fi n a l is e t h e m a t t e r b e c a u s e a s I s a i d t h a t th e n t h e p r o c e s s o f a c tu a lly
h e a r in g th e o t h e r s i d e t h e s e g u y s a r e i n ja il a n d a ll th a t .

But the

m a t t e r w e w il l h a v e t o m a k e s u r e t h a t w e m o n i t o r b o t h t h e c r i m i n a l
p r o c e s s b u t o u r t i m e a s w e l l a s I a l lu d e d to t h a t t h e t h r e e y e a r s d o e s
n o t l a p s e s o t h a t t h e m o n e y th a t h a s b e e n b l o c k e d d o e s n o t g o b a c k t o
t h e p e r p e tr a to r s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

Ye s .

Yo u c o n c l u d e o n th is to p ic Mr

M a z i b u k o o n p a r a g r a p h 6 5 t o 6 6 c o u l d y o u p l e a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir th e n
w h a t h a p p e n e d t o – w h e th e r t h e D e p a r t m e n t t o o k a n y o th e r s t e p s
p e r t a in in g t o t h e s e tr a n s a c t io n s a n d e n t i ti e s o r i n d i v i d u a ls ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s C h a ir.

So there we just

h i g h l ig h ti n g t h a t th e tr a n s a c t i o n i n v o lv i n g M r G o v e n d e r – r e m e m b e r h e
is th e s o le d ir e c to r o f Vi p e r, F G C C o m m o d i ti e s , M o r n i n g s t a r s o – a n d

Page 11 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w e j u s t h ig h li g h t t h a t F G C C o m m o d i t ie s a n d Vi p e r a ls o f o r m e d t h e
s u b j e c t o f a p r e v io u s r e p o r t t o t h e d i r e c t o r a t e f o r p r i o r i ty c r i m e
in v e s t i g a t io n – t h e H a w k s o f S o u t h A f r ic a n P o li c e S e r v ic e d u r i n g
N o v e m b e r. S o y o u c a n s e e t h a t t h e s h e n a n i g a n s t h a t a r e in v o lv e d h e r e
t h a t t h e s e a r e n o t c l e a n c o m p a n i e s t h a t b e s i d e s t h e m a t t e r s th a t a r e
in v o lv e d i n th e H o m ix c a s e th e r e h a v e b e e n o t h e r c a s e s w h e r e t h e s e
c o m p a n i e s u n d e r th e d ir e c t o r s h ip o f Mr G o v e n d e r w e h a v e r e p o r t e d
t h e m t o th e p o li c e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . B u t I m e a n th e d a te h e r e a n d I a m
10

p o s i n g t h i s q u e s ti o n i n t h e l ig h t o f t h e c o n c e r n s o f t h e C h a ir.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : H m .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P e r t a i n i n g t o w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e is a n y
a c ti v i ti e s b e i n g d o n e i n r e l a ti o n t o th is r e p o r t e d c a s e s y o u k n o w t o th e
r e s p e c ti v e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t ?

I mean here you are saying it was

reported around November 2015?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D o y o u k n o w a s t o w h a t t r a n s p ir e d fr o m
2 0 1 5 u p u n t il n o w i n r e l a ti o n t o th o s e r e p o r t e d c a s e s ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
20

S o w e h a v e a c h a l le n g e w i th t h e

p o li c e in t h is r e g a r d in t e r m s o f p u r s u i n g t h e s e c a s e s . I th in k I d o n o t
k n o w w h e t h e r i t is b e c a u s e o f th e r e s o u r c e s a t th e ir d is p o s a l a n d w h e n
w e g o to P a r li a m e n t b e c a u s e fr o m ti m e t o ti m e w e g o t o P a r l i a m e n t t o
a c t u a ll y a c c o u n t a s v a r i o u s a g e n c i e s i n te r m s o f i ll ic i t f in a n c ia l f l o w s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W e d o r e p o r t t h e s e c a s e s . I t h i n k t h e

Page 12 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
la s t n u m b e r o f c a s e s t h a t w e h a d r e p o r t e d t o t h e p o l ic e w e r e 6 4 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: 64?
MR

S H I WA

ELIJAH

MAZIBUKO:

I n v o lv i n g

exchange

control,

c o n tr a v e n ti o n s b u t n o t h i n g a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ti m e h a d t a k e n p la c e . B u t
I m u s t s a y th e n a f te r o n e o f t h e s e s s i o n s i n P a r l ia m e n t – y o u k n o w
b e c a u s e I t h in k th e is s u e o f c o l l a b o r a ti o n a n d w o r k i n g to g e th e r w a s a
li t tl e b i t f a r a p a r t b e c a u s e – fo r i t – a n d w e w e r e w o r k i n g i n s il o s I t h in k
a n d w e w e r e v e r y m u c h e n c o u r a g e d to w o r k to g e th e r s o t h a t – b e c a u s e
t h e s e ty p e o f w o r k is lik e r e a ll y t h a t y o u fi n d a n u m b e r o f p e o p l e a r e
10

c a r r y i n g a s ti c k t o th e f i n is h l in e a n d t h e n i f s o m e b o d y d r o p s t h e s t ic k
y o u n o t g o in g t o r e a c h t h e f in is h li n e . S o if w e d e a l w i t h t h e c a s e a s
fi n a n c i a l s u r v e il la n c e a n d s o m e b o d y d o e s n o t ta k e it t o t h e e n d a n d w e
g iv e i t to y o u a n d t h e n w e s a y ta k e i t fu r t h e r a n d y o u d o n o t i t is n o t
g o i n g t o – s o t h a t is a d is a d v a n ta g e it is ju s t o n e o f t h e c a s e s t h a t –
a n d w e h a v e r a is e d t h i s c o n c e r n w i t h t h e p r e v i o u s d i r e c t o r a te a n d w e
h o p e i n f u t u r e b e c a u s e n o w w e a r e a l w a y s r e p o r t in g b a c k t o P a r l i a m e n t
o n a b i - m o n t h l y – o n a n a n n u a l b a s is th a t w e w i ll tr y a n d e n c o u r a g e t h e
p o li c e t o w o r k o n th e s e c a s e s .

A s I s a i d th a t I d o n o t k n o w w h y

w h e t h e r b e c a u s e I a m n o t o n th e i r s i d e I a m o n t h e s i d e o f th e b a n k
20

t h is s i d e w e ju s t d o o u r j o b t o r e p o r t t o t h e m . B u t I m u s t a ls o s a y t h a t
t h e r e is a n i n te r - u r g e n c y w o r k in g g r o u p t h a t h a s b e e n e s t a b lis h e d
b e t w e e n o u r s e l v e s , F IC , t h e N PA a n d w e h a v e t a k e n a b o u t 8 c a s e s w e
a r e tr y i n g to d r i v e t h o s e c a s e s . S o w e h a v e p ic k e d o u t o f t h e s e c a s e s
that were not moving.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Hm.

Page 13 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I a m n o t s o s u r e w h e th e r t h is o n e is
o n e o f th e m b u t w e a r e tr y i n g t o a c t u a lly t a k e a c ti o n o n t h e m a n d p u s h
t h e m t h r o u g h s o t h a t t h e y c a n g o to c o u r t a n d b e fi n a l is e d . S o t h e r e is
s o m e a c t io n a m o n g s t o u r s e lv e s t h a t a ft e r y o u k n o w s o m e d i ll y d a lly i n g
t h e p a s t a n d w o r k i n g in s il o s w e a r e n o w tr y in g t o c o l la b o r a t e i n
working together so that we can push these cases.

Because you

c a n n o t w o r k a l o n e a s I s a id th a t w e fi n i s h w i t h c e r t a in c a s e s e s p e c i a l ly
w h e r e t h e r e is s o m e j u s t i fic a ti o n t o r e p o r t t h e m t o t h e p o l ic e , w e r e p o r t
it to t h e m b u t y o u n e e d to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y a l s o p u s h t h e c a s e s
10

through.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l y o u t a l k a b o u t 6 4 c a s e s th a t y o u h a v e r e f e r r e d

t o t h e p o l ic e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Are those cases cases that were referred to the

H a w k s a s s u c h o r r e f e r r e d t o S A P S o r r e fe r r e d t o d i ffe r e n t u n i ts o r
b r a n c h e s o f t h e p o l ic e ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e y a r e r e p o r t e d t o th e N PA C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e N PA ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h n o t t h e p o l ic e ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O : N o I m i g h t n o t b e s u r e i n t e r m s o f t h e
s tr u c t u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r b o th y e s .

Page 14 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h e N PA p r o s e c u t e s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p o li c e in v e s t i g a t e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n t h e y h a v e fi n i s h e d in v e s t i g a t in g t h e y s u b m i t
t h e d o c k e t t o t h e N PA .

T h e N PA l o o k s a t t h e s ta t e m e n ts a n d t h e

e v i d e n c e c o ll e c t e d a n d t h e y d e c i d e w h e t h e r th e r e is a c a s e to t a k e t o
c o u r t o r n o t. D o y o u k n o w w h ic h o n e s y o u w o u l d h a v e t a k e n ?
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o i t w i ll b e th e p o lic e b e c a u s e y o u

h a v e g o t p o l ic e c a s e n u m b e r s h e r e t h a t w e h a v e t h a t is r e p o r t e d th a t
y o u k n o w y o u w il l s e e th a t i n s o m e o f t h e [ in d i s t i n c t ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w o u l d b e th e p o li c e ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I t w il l b e t h e p o li c e .

But at some

s t a g e t h e n i t s h o u l d b e e s c a l a te d fo r p r o s e c u ti o n t o th e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a a f te r t h e y h a v e i n v e s t i g a t e d .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o w h e n y o u – I w o u ld – J a y o u m u s t b e r e p o r ti n g

t h e m t o th e p o li c e .
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e y n e e d to b e in v e s ti g a t e d b e fo r e th e y g o
t o th e N PA a n d – b u t o n c e y o u h a v e r e p o r t e d t h e m t o t h e p o l ic e w i t h o r
w i t h o u t a t a s k t e a m w h ic h in v o lv e s a ll o f t h e s e a g e n c i e s t h e p o l ic e
m u s t k e e p y o u in f o r m e d o f w h a t t h e y a r e d o i n g . T h e y s h o u ld – if y o u
h a v e r e p o r te d th e c a s e a n d th e y in v e s ti g a t e t h e y m u s t b e a b l e to c o m e

Page 15 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
b a c k a n d s a y t h is is w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g a b o u t t h a t c a s e . H a v e t h e y n o t
b e e n d o in g th a t ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A s I a ll u d e d to C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t in th e
p a s t w e w o r k e d w it h - y o u k n o w w it h in o u r s i lo s y o u k n o w b e c a u s e
people.
CHAIRPERSON:

J a b u t th a t is w h a t I a m d e a l in g w it h I a m s a y in g i t

d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h e t h e r y o u w o r k in s i lo s o r n o t i f y o u h a v e r e fe r r e d a
c a s e to t h e p o l ic e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O n e t h e y h a v e a d u t y to i n fo r m y o u a b o u t t h e

progress.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w b e c a u s e y o u h a v e a s p e c i a l t a s k w h ic h y o u
a r e p e r f o r m i n g a n d y o u w a n t t o s e e t o it th a t p e o p le w h o h a v e
c o n tr a v e n e d e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l r e g u la t io n s a r e d e a l t w i th w h e r e t h o s e
t h e ir c o n d u c t s e e ms t o y o u t o c o n s t i tu t e c r i m e s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o m y q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r th e y h a v e b e e n r e p o r ti n g

b a c k to y o u o r n o t o n th e ir p r o g r e s s ?
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A s o f la t e a s I h a v e a l lu d e d t o t h a t w e
– a f te r g o i n g t o P a r l ia m e n t b e c a u s e I th i n k i t i s w h e r e w e w e r e h i g h ly
c r i ti c is e d b y [ in d i s ti n c t ] th a t w e w o r k i n s i lo s a n d t h e n w e fo r m e d w h a t
is c a ll e d a n i n t e r - u r g e n c y w o r k i n g g r o u p a n d th e n w e s t a r t e d to ta k e 8
c a s e s y o u k n o w a m o n g s t o u r s e lv e s t h a t w e t h in k t h a t w e c a n s t a r t t o
drive now – so the process…

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t I u n d e r s ta n d M r M a z ib u k o y o u h a v e to l d m e t h a t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : My q u e s t io n is , h a v e t h e y n o t b e e n r e p o r ti n g b a c k to
y o u ? H a s th e p o lic e n o t b e e n r e p o r ti n g b a c k t o y o u ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : N o t h e y h a v e n o t b e e n r e p o r ti n g b a c k
t o u s C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n – th is h a s b e e n f o r h o w l o n g a s f a r a s y o u
know?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I t g o e s b a c k t o t h e n u m b e r o f y e a r s . I
10

a m n o t s u r e a s to …
CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you have reported them.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Because the 64 cases were not

reported in one year so…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o [i n d i s t in c t ] . .
CHAIRPERSON: Over a certain period.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a s o …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u w o u l d s a y y o u m ig h t n o t b e e x a c t b u t y o u w il l
s a y th e e a r li e s t o f th o s e 6 4 c a s e s w o u l d h a v e b e e n r e p o r t e d a r o u n d
about which year?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

L e t u s t a k e – le t u s s a y m a y b e fi v e

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
y e a r s a g o l e t m e u s e t h a t a s a n e x a m p le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o r e o r l e s s f iv e y e a r s a g o ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s m o r e o r l e s s fi v e y e a r s a g o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s e e I a m c o n c e r n e d a b o u t t h a t a n d I s h o u l d b e

c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th a t b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e – o n e o f t h e c o n c e r n s o r
a l le g a ti o n s t h a t a r e m a d e i n r e la t io n t o s t a t e c a p t u r e is t h a t la w
e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c i e s h a v e a ls o b e e n c a p t u r e d .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : H m . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d c a s e s th a t t h e y s h o u l d h a v e i n v e s ti g a te d w e r e

n o t in v e s ti g a t e d b e c a u s e o f c o r r u p ti o n .

A n d s o t h a t is p a r t o f t h e

r e a s o n w h y I a m i n te r e s t e d i n w h y s o m a n y c a s e s y o u r e p o r t e d s o m a n y
c a s e s t o th e p o li c e a n d t h e y h a v e n e v e r c o m e b a c k to y o u t o s a y w h a t
is h a p p e n i n g ..
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I j u s t n e e d t o a d d th a t w e d id w r i t e t o
t h e h e a d o f t h e – p r e v i o u s h e a d o f t h e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J u s t t o a s k a s t o w h a t is h a p p e n i n g t o
20

64 cases.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B u t w e n e v e r g o t a n y r e s p o n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I n t h a t r e g a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I – a m I r i g h t th a t y o u a r e – y o u a r e n o t s u r e o f

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t h e r o l e o f t h e N PA a n d t h e p o l ic e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u …

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B e c a u s e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y i n g N PA s o m e ti m e s y o u s a y i n g t h e p o l ic e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B u t w e w r o t e to th e m t h e r e I a m s u r e
t h a t w e w r o te t o t h e h e a d o f th e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e n N PA ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A b o u t t h e 6 4 c a s e s t h a t is w h y I c a n –
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

B e c a u s e I t h i n k in m o s t c a s e s w h e n

w e a r e i n P a r l i a m e n t o n – a l o n g s i d e u s w e a r e w it h t h e N PA .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . N o t w i t h t h e [i n d is ti n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t w i th t h e p o li c e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h a t i s w h y m a y b e m y
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

C o n fu s i o n g e ts y o u k n o w m ix e d u p

t h e r e b e c a u s e i n m o s t c a s e s w e d e a l w i t h t h e N PA p e o p le { i n d is ti n c t ] .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M a y b e y o u c o u ld g o b a c k w h e n y o u g o b a c k a n d
ju s t c h e c k p r o p e r l y a n d b e c a u s e i t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t t o e s ta b l is h w h y
t h e r e h a s b e e n n o a c t io n i f h e p o s i ti o n is t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n n o a c ti o n
a n d s o o n . B u t fr o m y o u r s id e I w a s s t il l g o i n g t o s a y f r o m y o u r s i d e it
m i g h t n o t b e e n o u g h a ls o t o j u s t r e p o r t a n d l e a v e i t t o t h e m t o d o t h a t.
B e c a u s e t h is is y o u r a r e a y o u k n o w e x c h a n g e c o n t r o l r e g u la t io n s a n d

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
y o u s h o u l d f o ll o w u p t o s a y w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g b e c a u s e y o u d o n o t w a n t
p e o p l e w h o h a v e c o n tr a v e n e d e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l r e g u l a ti o n s w h o y o u
t h i n k s h o u ld b e p r o s e c u t e d t o j u s t g o s c o t fr e e a n d n o t h in g h a p p e n s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e th a t w e a k e n s y o u r o w n a r e a w h e r e y o u h a v e
a n o b li g a t io n t o e n fo r c e e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l r e g u l a ti o n s . A n d p e o p l e d o
c o n tr a v e n e t h e s e a n d y o u r e fe r th e m t o e i t h e r th e p o l ic e o r t h e N PA
a n d n o t h i n g h a p p e n s i t u n d e r mi n e s t h e c o n tr o l e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l
r e g u la t io n s a n d i t u n d e r m i n e s t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n R e s e r v e B a n k s f ig h t
10

a g a in s t a m o n g o t h e r c o r r u p ti o n .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : N o t e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B e c a u s e w e u s e d m o s t b e c a u s e I d o
n o t th i n k – a s I – I d o n o t w a n t to g o b a c k b e c a u s e a s I s a i d w e w o r k in
s il o s b u t w h e n w e w e r e – w h e n w e w e r e i n P a r li a m e n t w h e r e w e a r e
f a c i n g y o u k n o w t h e c o m m i t te e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : It is w h e r e w e t e l l t h e tr u t h . As I s a id
w e g o t h e r e a l m o s t b i- a n n u a l ly to c o m m i t t e e s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

W h e n w e d e a l w i t h il li c i t fi n a n c i a l

fr a u d s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d th e n w e w il l m a k e a p r e s e n ta t io n
e v e r y s ix m o n th s t o s a y t h e s e a r e t h e – a n d t h e y w i ll b e t h e r e .

Page 20 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n w il l a s k t h e m t o
s a y w h a t i t i s n o t o p e n – b u t a s y o u a l lu d e d to s t a t e c a p t u r e b e c a u s e
t h is h a s b e e n a s k e d to s a y w h y t h e r e i s
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d i n a c t io n th e y c o u l d n o t c o m e u p
w i t h a n a n s w e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A e x p l a n a t io n .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o m e o f t h e m in P a r li a m e n t i f y o u c a n
10

even go back.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
scared

you

k n o w.

They

T h e y w e r e – t h e y j u s t a ll u d e d t o b e

cannot

do

t h is

for

whatever

reasons

w h a ts o e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y s a id t h e y w e r e s c a r e d s o m e o f t h e m ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : F r o m t h e ir s u p e r i o r s . Yo u k n o w t h e r e
w e r e s o m e t i m e s w h e n s o m e b o d y c o u ld n o t a n s w e r t o s a y h e n e e d s t o
fir s t t o p h o n e t h e s u p e r i o r s i n P r e to r i a t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o ?
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a th a t – b e f o r e h e c o u l d a n s w e r t h a t
q u e s t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h a t is th e d i ffi c u l ty t h a t y o u f i n d
t h a t a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ti m e . M a y b e t h i n g s a r e g o i n g t o c h a n g e n o w
w h a ts o e v e r b u t i f t h e y c o u ld n o t a n s w e r in fr o n t o f t h e c o m m i t t e e

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
c h a ir p e r s o n s
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W h e r e w e t h o u g h t th a t y o u k n o w i t is
lik e ta k i n g y o u r s i b l i n g t o th e p a r e n t t o s a y n o w y o u a r e g o i n g t o te ll
t h e tr u th .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B e c a u s e y o u h a v e b e e n – I h a v e b e e n
tr y i n g t o g e t i t o u t o f y o u . S o w e a r e h e r e n o w te ll t h e tr u t h b u t i t s t il l
d o e s n o t c o m e o u t . Yo u h e a r t h e s e p r o m i s e s s o t h e r e h a v e b e e n t h e s e
10

p r o m is e s b u t a s I s a i d t h a t I t h i n k t h e 8 c a s e s t h a t a r e t h e r e w i ll b e t h e
t e s t c a s e s a n d I t h i n k i t is a d r o p in a n o c e a n a f t e r 6 4 c a s e s t h a t h a v e
b e e n t h e r e o v e r t h e y e a r s t h a t y o u a r e s t a r ti n g w i th 8 c a s e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h a t it is a d r o p in t h e o c e a n .

But

w a s a p u s h fr o m P a r li a m e n t t h a t s a y s w e n e e d to d o s o m e t h i n g a n d
w o r k to g e th e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . W e l l n o w t h a t i s u s e fu l in f o r m a t io n .

One of the

t h i n g s th a t I a m g o i n g to d o is e s t a b li s h a s p e c ia l t a s k t e a m t o l o o k a t
is s u e s o f h o w P a r l ia m e n t e x e r c is e d o v e r s i g h t o v e r t h e y e a r s in r e g a r d
20

t o is s u e s o f s ta t e c a p t u r e a n d c o r r u p t io n .

So part of what you are

s a y in g w o u l d f a l l u n d e r t h a t b e c a u s e i t m a y w e ll b e t h a t a s I h a v e s a id
a fe w ti m e s o v e r – s i n c e la s t d a t e i t m a y w e ll b e th a t if P a r l ia m e n t h a d
p l a y e d it s o v e r s i g h t r o l e s o m e o f t h e c h a l le n g e s m a y h a v e b e e n d e a l t
w i t h e a r ly.

S o i t is i m p o r t a n t t o h a v e a lo o k a n d t o s e e w h e r e th e r e

m a y h a v e b e e n fa il u r e s o n t h e p a r t o f P a r li a m e n t , o n th e p a r t o f

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
P o r t f o l io C o m m i t t e e s a n d s e e w h a t w o u l d n e e d t o b e d o n e f o r t h e
f u t u r e . W h a t m e a s u r e w o u ld n e e d t o b e d o n e – t a k e n to m a k e s u r e t h a t
if s i m i la r t h i n g s c o m e u p i n th e f u t u r e P a r l i a m e n t w o u l d p la y i ts r o le
a n d m a y b e s t o p s o m e t h i n g s fr o m p r o g r e s s in g to o f a r.

So the

in f o r m a ti o n y o u t e l l – y o u a r e te ll in g m e i s q u it e i m p o r ta n t th a t y o u
k n o w y o u r d iv i s i o n h a s b e e n g o i n g t o P a r l i a m e n t a n d r a is in g t h e s e
is s u e s a n d s o m e t i m e s t h e p e o p le fr o m – w h e t h e r t h e N PA o r o t h e r l a w
e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c y c o u ld n o t o r s o – y o u k n o w g i v e e x p l a n a t io n s
b e c a u s e o n e o f t h e th in g s i s w h e n a P o r t f o li o C o m m i t t e e is e x e r c is in g
10

it s o v e r s i g h t a n d p e o p le c a n n o t g iv e e x p l a n a t io n s t h e r e m u s t b e
s o m e t h i n g t o d o a b o u t i t . I t c a n n o t j u s t b e l e f t li k e t h a t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o i t i s t r u e C h a i r p e r s o n . I j u s t w a n t
t o s a y t h a t w e h a v e b e e n g o i n g - t h e P a r li a m e n t i n t e r m s o f i ts
programs as I say that for the past four years we have been going there
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B y ( i n d is t in c t ) b u t …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I t is i n t e r m s o f y o u r a l l u d in g t o i n

t e r m s o f t h e a c ti o n b e c a u s e I t h i n k t h e y w i ll c o m e h a r d o n a n y a g e n c i e s
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h a t - a n d t h e y h a v e c o m e h a r d o n u s

Page 23 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W o r k i n g i n s i lo s ( ? ) …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h a t y o u k n o w t h e y n e e d to s e e s o m e
progress …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d I s a id o n e d a y w h e n w e w e r e i n

P a r li a m e n t t h a t w e a r e a l l i n - i n Pr e t o r ia m o s t o f u s a r e h e r e in
10

Pretoria …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B u t w e h a v e t o g o t o P a r li a m e n t t o b e
t o l d n o t t o w o r k i n s il o s a n d a ll t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

And nothing much was happening in

t e r m s o f t h e p u s h to m a k e s u r e th a t m a y b e w i t h t h e p r e v i o u s
s u b m is s io n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
20

t h e r e is m u c h p r o g r e s s .

Yo u k n o w t o th e P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t t e e

W e w il l g o a n d fi n d t h a t s o m e o f t h e i s s u e s

lik e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h e c a s e s w e a r e h a v i n g a r e s t il l

s t a tic a t 6 4 . N o t h i n g h a s g o n e t h r o u g h b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

N o t h i n g w i ll h a p p e n to th e p o lic e o r

any …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n y c h a n g e w h a t s o e v e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d it m a y w e ll b e t h a t s o m e o f t h e b o d i e s o r

a g e n c ie s o v e r w h o m v a r io u s P o r tf o li o C o m m i t t e e s o f P a r l i a m e n t a r e
s u p p o s e d to e x e r c is e o v e r s i g h t m a y b e t h e y d o k n o w t h a t i n th e e n d
10

n o t h i n g w il l h a p p e n . Th e y w il l a s k y o u q u e s ti o n s a n d y o u c a n j u s t g iv e
t h e m w h a te v e r a n s w e r a n d n o th i n g w i ll h a p p e n i n th e e n d a n d …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h a t is w h y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h y th e y d o n o t c a r e . Yo u k n o w t h e y d o n o t
f e a r. T h e y d o n o t th i n k t h e r e w i ll b e c o n s e q u e n c e s i f t h e y a r e – if th e y
h a v e n o e x p l a n a t io n f o r n o t d o in g t h e ir jo b . M a y b e t h a t i s p a r t o f t h e
p r o b le m a n d o n e w o u l d n e e d t o lo o k a t w h e t h e r o r n o t t h e r e i s a
c a p a c i ty p r o b l e m w i t h P o r t fo li o C o m m i t t e e s o r w h e t h e r th e r e w e r e
e l e m e n ts o f s ta t e c a p tu r e w i t h i n P o r t f o l i o C o m m i t te e s th e m s e lv e s .

I

m e a n I a lr e a d y h a v e h e a r d e v i d e n c e o f s o m e w i t n e s s e s w h o w e r e i n
20

P a r li a m e n t a t s o m e s ta g e s w h o s a id w h e n I w a s r a is i n g t h is I w a s to ld
t o t a k e i t e a s y o r s o m e t h in g li k e th a t . S o – s o w e n e e d – w e n e e d t o –
t o lo o k a t t h o s e t h in g s . S o w h a t y o u h a v e t o l d m e i s q u i t e i m p o r t a n t ,
thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r M a z ib u k o m a y b e w h a t m i g h t b e o f

a s s is t a n c e t o t h e C o m m is s i o n i s i f y o u m a y e v e n – e v e n if y o u c a n d o i t

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t h r o u g h y o u r l e g a l t e a m ju s t g i v e u s a s e n s e o f t h e li s t o f a l l t h e
m a t t e r s th a t y o u h a v e r e p o r t e d , w h e n w e r e t h e y r e p o r t e d a n d t o w h o m
w e r e th e y r e p o r t e d . T h a t m i g h t b e q u i t e h e l p fu l t o d e a l w i t h i t in o t h e r
s tr e a m s a n d t o ta k e it f u r th e r.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

We

do

have

that

–

that

li s t

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

And to the extent that you can where

t h e r e is c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t m i g h t a ls o b e h e lp f u l. S o t h a t y o u c a n a t
le a s t a p p r e c ia t e – y o u k n o w – t h e e n tir e r e p o r t in g s tr u c t u r e a n d w h a t
10

could have been done and was not done. We can now move on to deal
w i t h y o u r t o p ic t h a t y o u a r e in tr o d u c i n g fr o m p a g e 2 3 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Where

you are

talking about the

tr a n s a c ti o n s o f i n t e r e s t u t il is i n g t h e b a n k a c c o u n ts o f H o m ix .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I f y o u c a n e x p l a i n to u s w h a t y o u a r e

tr y i n g t o c o n v e y to t h e C h a ir a n d a ls o d e a l w i t h th e r e l e v a n t f a c t s u n d e r
t h a t to p ic .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o h e r e C h a i r is p a r t o f S e c ti o n
20

2 o f t h e s u m m o n s b e c a u s e th e r e q u e s t w a s a b o u t d e a li n g w i th a n y
o th e r a c c o u n t s o f H o m ix b e s i d e s t h e m a t t e r t h a t w e d e a l t w i th …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

O n F r i d a y.

T h e o n ly d i ffe r e n c e

b e t w e e n t h e s e m a t t e r s h e r e th a t I a m g o i n g t o b e d e a li n g w i t h t o th e
o n e o n F r i d a y - s o t h is i s m o s tl y d o m e s t ic a c c o u n ts b e c a u s e w h e n y o u

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
lo o k a t m o n e y l a u n d e r in g y o u l o o k a t f e e d e r a c c o u n t s a s t o w h e r e t h e
m o n e y c o m e s fr o m b e c a u s e o u r m a n d a t e in te r ms o f e x c h a n g e c o n tr o l
is m a in ly c r o s s b o r d e r t h e m o n i e s t h a t a r e l e a v i n g th e c o u n tr y b u t
m o n i e s t h a t a r e – a r e fl o w i n g w i t h i n t h e c o u n tr y w h e th e r t h e r e a r e s o m e
s u s p i c i o n s o r s o m e n e fa r i o u s a c t iv i t ie s t h e r e t h a t is fo r t h e F I C t o – t o
d e a l w it h …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Yo u k n o w – a n d – a n d t h e r e w il l b e

s o m e c o ll a b o r a t io n i f f o r in s t a n c e th e y f o u n d t h a t – t h a t t h e s e m o n i e s
10

c o u l d h a v e – s o th e s e a r e a c c o u n ts t h a t I a m c o m i n g to n o w a r e
d o m e s ti c i s s u e s t h a t – th a t w o u l d h a v e fe d in t o t h e l o c a l a c c o u n t a n t o f
H o m i x t o b e a b l e t o a ffe c t t h e tr a n s a c ti o n a b r o a d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I j u s t w a n t t o h i g h li g h t t h a t fr o m t h e

b e g in n i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is i m p o r t a n t , j a .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s a n d – a n d s o h e r e – s o a s I

a l lu d e d t o e a r li e r C h a ir p e r s o n is th a t th e i s s u e o f H o m ix in t e r m s o f t h e
p r e s e n t a ti o n to t h i s c o m m i t t e e I w a s t a lk i n g to m y c o ll e a g u e s j u s t
20

d u r i n g t e a ti m e t h is m o r n in g t h a t h a v i n g g o n e th r o u g h th is I h a v e r e a d
a b o u t i t i n a n u m b e r o f n e w s p a p e r a r tic l e s a n d w h y I r e a d a b o u t i t i n a
n u m b e r o f n e w s p a p e r a r t ic l e s is b e c a u s e o f t h e r e p r e s e n ta t io n s t h a t
have been made to this Commission. So some of the things here are
n o t n e w p e r s e – y o u k n o w – i t is j u s t t h a t f r o m o u r s i d e w e a r e j u s t
g o i n g t o p r e s e n t w h a t w e k n o w.

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ja.

S o – s o I ju s t w a n t to s t a r t i n

terms of paragraph 68 where it says:
“ T h e b u lk o f t h e f u n d s r e c e iv e d b y H o m i x o r i g in a te d
fr o m S O E s o r p e r s o n s w h o w e r e p r o v i d i n g s e r v i c e s
to the SOEs.”
I t h i n k o n e o f t h e b i g d e a l s h e r e a n d o n e o f th e p r e s e n ta t io n s th a t w a s
m a d e w a s a b o u t t h e N e o te l c a s e …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

W h ic h c o m e s o n - o n p a r a g r a p h 6 9

t h a t w h e r e m e d i a r e p o r ts r e p o r t e d th a t :
“ I n 2 0 1 5 H o m i x w a s i n v o l v e d i n ir r e g u l a r p a y m e n t s
r e c e i v e d f r o m N e o t e l r e l a ti n g t o a d e a l w o r t h 2
b i ll io n

b e tw e e n

N e o te l

and

Tr a n s n e t

and

that

M r A s h o k N a r a y a n c l a i m e d t o b e t h e H o m ix C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e a t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r ti m e in q u e s ti o n . ”
A n d I w i ll t h e n m o v e t o – s o w h a t w e w il l d o h e r e w e m i g h t h a v e t o p a r k
t h is a n d w e w il l l o o k a t t h e a c c o u n ts in t e r m s o f w h a t t h e r o le o f N e o te l
w a s i n t e r m s o f m a y b e p u t t in g s o m e fu n d s in t o t h e H o m ix a c c o u n t .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s . C h a ir y o u – y o u w o u ld r e c a ll t h a t

o v e r w h e l mi n g e v i d e n c e w a s a d d u c e d b e f o r e y o u t h a t t h e r e w a s n o
ju s t i fic a ti o n t h a t c o u l d b e f o u n d a s t o w h y H o m ix w a s p a id a n y m o n i e s
a t a ll i n th e l i g h t o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n u m b e r o f s e r v ic e s – I m e a n th e

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
s e r v ic e s t h a t w e r e r e n d e r e d b y a n u m b e r o f s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s t o
Tr a n s n e t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

And then paragraph – I am coming

n o w t o t h e a c c o u n ts o f H o m ix - l o c a l a c c o u n ts – o f H o m ix a t S t a n d a r d
B a n k . Th is is n o w – s o t h is is a d i ff e r e n c e – ja t h i s i s a – a – t h i s i s
n o t a tr a d e a c c o u n t t h a t w a s o p e r a t e d w i t h M e r c a n t il e b e c a u s e o n e y o u
o p e r a t e in a t r a d e s p a c e y o u o p e n a t r a d e a c c o u n t w i t h t h e b a n k . N o w
h e r e i t is a – i t is a n o r m a l c u r r e n t a c c o u n t o f a b u s i n e s s . S o w e a r e
s t a r ti n g a d i ff e r e n t a c c o u n t h e r e .
10

M o n e y c o u l d fl o w f r o m a c u r r e n t

a c c o u n t to t h e tr a d e a c c o u n t s o t h a t i t c a n f a c il i ta t e i m p o r ts . S o u n d e r
7 0 s o H o m ix o p e r a te d a b u s in e s s c h e c k a n d a c a l l a c c o u n t a t S t a n d a r d
B a n k o f S o u th A f r ic a a n d t h e n i t h a d th e f o l lo w in g a u t h o r is e d
s ig n a to r i e s :

M r Ta u fi q u e S h a u k a t H a s w a r e ,

M r Ya k u b A h m e d S u le i m a n B h ik h u ,

Mr M u g a m a t S h a f ik A d a ms .

R e m e m b e r t h a t Mr B h ik h u w a s t h e – s e e m e d l ik e a S o l e D i r e c t o r o f – o f
H o m i x . T h i s i s th e p e r s o n w h o w e w r o t e t o th e r e a u d i a l t e r a m p a r t e m
le t t e r b e fo r e t h e fu n d s w e r e fo r f e it e d . S o – s o h e w a s a ls o a s ig n a to r y
to the account at Standard Bank and then at paragraph 71:
“The
20

Standard

Bank

a c c o u n ts

r e m a in s

la r g e ly

in a c ti v e . ”
S o fr o m o u r i n v e s ti g a ti o n w e a r e – w e a r e t o l d t h a t t h e s e a c c o u n ts w e r e
dormant. I do not know why it was kept open. How long the banks can
k e e p d o r m a n t a c c o u n t s . S o u p to 2 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 i t w a s j u s t a n i n a c tiv e
a c c o u n t a n d fr o m t h e r e a ft e r t h e r e w a s a fl u r r y o f a c tiv i ty i n te r ms o f
d r a m a tic in c r e a s e i n a c c o u n t a c ti v i ty.

D u r i n g t h is p e r io d th e c h e q u e

Page 29 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
a c c o u n t r e c e iv e d s e v e r a l l a r g e d e p o s i ts a n d t h e c a l l a c c o u n t w a s u s e d
o n ly t o r e c e iv e a n d p a y b e c a u s e w h e n y o u r u n a c h e q u e a c c o u n t a n d a
c a l l a c c o u n t y o u m i g h t m o v e f u n d s i f y o u fi n d t h a t t h e i n te r e s t r a t e in
t h e c a ll a c c o u n t w il l g iv e y o u s o m e – s o m e g o o d r e t u r n a n d t h e n w h e n
y o u n e e d m o n e y b a c k i n to th e c u r r e n t a c c o u n t it w i ll b e t r a n s f e r r e d
b a c k . S o i t s e e m s t h e t w o a c c o u n ts h a d s o m e a c t iv i ty f o r – s t a r te d i n –
o n 2 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 a n d – b u t 3 0 J u n e – s o th is i s a p p r o x i m a t e l y 2 0
m o n th s o r 2 1 m o n t h s fr o m 2 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 t o 3 0 J u n e 2 0 1 5 . T h e r e w a s
a l m o s t n o tr a n s a c ti o n a c tiv i ty in t h e a c c o u n t s s a v e fo r th e b a n k f e e s .
10

S o fo r t h a t p e r i o d th e r e w a s a h u g e a c ti v i ty a n d t h is is a r e d f la g fo r –
f o r s o m e b o d y a s I s a id th e b a n k s i n t e r m s o f t h e ir r o l e t h e y - t h e y a r e
a t t h e c a l l p h a s e a n d - a n d w h e n y o u lo o k a t m o n e y – m o n e y la u n d e r i n g
it is a s I s a i d th a t i t is t h r e e s t a g e s . It is a p l a c e m e n t b e c a u s e t h a t is
w h e r e t h e p l a c e m e n t – o n c e y o u h a v e h it – t h a t is t h e c r u c ia l s t a g e t h a t
if I h a v e s t o l e n m o n e y o r I h a v e g o t a b a g o f m o n e y i f I c a n b e a b l e t o
p l a c e i t in t o th e b a n k a c c o u n t t h e p r o c e s s is s t a r t e d . I k n o w t h a t t h e
b a n k s h a v e to r e p o r t e d s u s p i c i o u s a c c o u n t – b u t i f i t h a s ju s t b e e n
a c c e p te d w i t h o u t q u e s ti o n i n g w h a t s o e v e r a n d th e n f r o m t h e r e i t is
la y e r i n g . Yo u w ill s e e t h a t n o w t h e r e w i ll b e l a y e r in g in t e r m s o f p e o p le

20

w h o a r e b e i n g p a id h e r e w h a ts o e v e r a n d e v e n t u a l ly i t is i n t e g r a ti o n i n
t h e e n d w h e r e I a m c l e a n . N o w t h a t m o n e y h a s b e e n w a s h e d th r o u g h
a n d th e n I a m c l e a n . N o m o n e y - b e c a u s e i t h a s g o n e t h r o u g h v a r i o u s
a c c o u n t s a n d a ll th a t .

S o i t b e c o m e s p r o b l e m a tic t h a t I d o n o t k n o w

w h a t t h e r o l e o f S ta n d a r d B a n k w a s f o r a – f o r a n a c c o u n t th a t w a s
in a c ti v e fo r s o m a n y m o n t h s . A l l o f a s u d d e n h u g e a m o u n t s n o t s m a l l

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a m o u n ts y o u w i ll s e e w h e n y o u g o t o th e a m o u n t s th a t w e r e p u t i n th e r e
a s to w h a t a c t io n w a s ta k e n to a n d t h e n t h a t w a s a r e d fl a g i n te r m s o f
n o n o r m a l a c t iv i ty fo r s o m e ti m e .

A ll o f a s u d d e n t h e r e w e r e s o m e

f e e d e r a c c o u n ts a n d t h e n y o u s e e m t o b e r e c e i v i n g m o n i e s fr o m
u n r e la t e d p a r ti e s b e c a u s e b a n k s m o n i t o r a c c o u n ts a n d t h e y k n o w i n
t e r m s o f p a y m e n ts a n d d e b i ts th a t g o t h r o u g h y o u r a c c o u n t w h a ts o e v e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h a t is p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f k n o w y o u r

c u s t o m e r. S o th e y k n o w w h o y o u p a y, y o u r in s u r a n c e c o m p a n y w h o y o u
10

p a y, w h o p a y s y o u r s a l a r y w h a ts o e v e r.

T h e y m o n i t o r th a t .

I t is p a r t

a n d p a r c e l o f t h a t b u t a ll o f a s u d d e n i f th e r e i s a fl u r r y o f a c tiv i ty t h a t
y o u a r e tr a d i n g i n t e x ti le b u t p a y m e n t s a r e c o m in g fr o m t h e m o t o r
c o m p a n i e s a n d a ll t h a t i n t o y o u r a c c o u n t.

T h a t s h o u l d r a is e s o m e

eyebrows.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I n f a c t y o u a r e p r o v i d i n g th e c a s h fl o w

a n a ly s is ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I f o n e h a s r e g a r d to p a r a g r a p h 7 2 .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u d o t h a t f r o m p a r a g r a p h 7 2 a n d o n e
m u s t – a m I r i g h t t h a t o n e m u s t r e a d p a r a g r a p h s 7 2 .1 a n d 7 2 .2 i n o r d e r
t o g e t a f a r m u c h c l e a r e r p i c t u r e a s t o t h e a n a ly s is t h a t w a s c o n d u c t e d
by SARB …

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I n t h is r e s p e c t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

H e r e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e i s S E M 2 0

h e r e . It is q u i te a h i g h in v o lv e d s p r e a d s h e e t h e r e i f y o u c a n g e t i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I – I a m s t il l j u s t t h i n k in g a b o u t w h a t y o u s a id

a b o u t S ta n d a r d B a n k w h y t h e y m ig h t n o t h a v e p ic k e d u p t h a t t h e r e w e r e
- m a y h a v e b e e n s o m e t h in g s c h a n g e d a b o u t a p a r t ic u l a r a c c o u n t th a t
w a s d o r m a n t f o r w h a t m a y b e c o n s i d e r e d a l o n g t i m e a n d t h e n s u d d e n ly
t h e r e a r e v e r y l a r g e a m o u n ts t h a t c o m e i n . W e ll o f c o u r s e w e d o n o t
10

k n o w w h a t th e p o s i t io n is b u t i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o h a v e a l o o k b e c a u s e I
t h i n k t o t h e e x t e n t th a t t h is m a y h a v e b e e n p e o p l e w h o w e r e i n v o lv e d i n
c o r r u p ti o n a n d p e o p le w h o m a y h a v e b e e n tr y i n g to l a u n d e r m o n e y a n d
t o t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n a c o n n e c ti o n w i th s t a t e c a p t u r e .
I t i s n o t i n c o n c e iv a b l e t h a t t h e y c o u l d i d e n ti f y c e r t a i n p e o p l e w i t h i n
b a n k s t o s a y w e m u s t ta lk to t h e m a n d r e w a r d t h e m a p p r o p r i a t e ly a n d
a s k t h e m t o t u r n a – a b li n d e y e a n d s o o n . S o t h a t is c o n c e i v a b le . I t
is n o t to s a y t h a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A t S t a n d a r d B a n k b u t – y o u k n o w – p e o p l e in v o lv e d i n

20

t h e s e t h i n g s a s I u n d e r s t a n d w i ll i d e n ti fy p e o p l e w h o c o u ld b e
s t u m b li n g b l o c k s in th e i r a c ti v i ti e s a n d w o u l d w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t
t h o s e p e o p le a r e n o t s t u m b li n g b lo c k s i n t h e ir a c ti v i ti e s .
s o m e p e o p l e w i ll n o t c o o p e r a te w it h th e m b u t o th e r s w il l.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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Of course

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C h a ir M r M a z i b u k o w a s j u s t a b o u t to

r e fe r y o u t o S E M 2 0 …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h ic h is o n p a g e 3 5 4 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e h a v e a – a fa r m u c h b e t t e r c o p y.

Yo u w i ll n e v e r b e a b l e t o r e a d t h e o n e o n t h a t p a g e …
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h is h a s b e e n e n la r g e d s o t h a t y o u
10

c a n b e a b l e to f o l l o w t h e e v i d e n c e . I a m t o l d th a t d e s p i te a ll a tt e m p ts
it m i g h t s t il l b e h a r d to r e a d o r d i ff ic u l t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

We

w i ll

try

our

best

and

follow

Mr Mazibuko.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o h e r e C h a ir p e r s o n i t is a t a l ly o f

w h a t w e g o t fr o m S E M 2 0 . A s y o u c a n s e e i t is in s m a l l p r i n t. T h e r e i s
q u i te a n u m b e r o f tr a n s a c t i o n s .

S o w e j u s t p u l le d t h e m t o g e t h e r a n d

a d d e d t h e d e b t s a s y o u s e e o n s e v e n – p a r a g r a p h 7 2 .1 .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

C a n I – c a n I a s k y o u th is q u e s t io n ?

T h i s s p r e a d s h e e t t h a t y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t h e C h a ir t o y o u h a v e
n o n e th e le s s r e p e a te d th e s a m e c o n te n ts fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 7 2 . 1 a n d
72.2. Am I correct?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o w e h a v e – w e h a v e t a ll ie d …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A s y o u s e e t h a t t h e r e is q u i te a

number of (intervenes).
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o w e h a v e ta ll ie d t h e m t o p u t th e s e

a m o u n ts li k e if y o u l o o k n o w u n d e r 7 2 . 1 – p a r a g r a p h 7 2 . 1 th e d e b it s …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: On page 24 …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Of your witness statement?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h e s e a r e t h e d e b i t s i n to t h e H o m ix
account.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So – which means it is a payment to

B a p u Tr a d i n g o f R 3 2 7 m ill i o n …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d y o u w i ll g e t th a t i f y o u g o t o t h e
s p r e a d s h e e t a n d s t a r t a d d i n g t h o s e s m a ll a m o u n ts . I t i s q u i te in v o lv e d
…
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

C h a ir p e r s o n .

I a m ju s t h ig h li g h t in g

t h a t – t h a t – y o u k n o w – i t w il l t a k e ti m e b u t i t is …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : E v e r y c e n t.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A ll th e s m a ll a m o u n t s t h a t w e h a v e

a c t u a ll y a d d e d u p .

Page 34 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d t h e n th e – t h e n e x t i s t h e

in t e r - a c c o u n t tr a n s fe r s …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B e f o r e – b e f o r e y o u g o t h e – w e n e e d to
c a p tu r e t h e B a p u Tr a d i n g C lo s e C o r p o r a t io n h o w m u c h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ar e w e ta lk i n g a b o u t s o t h a t a t l e a s t

w h e n y o u r e f e r to t h e n a m e l e t u s a l s o r e f e r t o t h e a m o u n ts .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Relevant amounts, ja.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So

they

were

paid

by

H o m ix

R 3 2 7 8 0 6 8 9 5 .7 9 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Do you know for what?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I do not know because I – I tried to

e v e n g o t o t h e – y e s t e r d a y – b e f o r e I w a s p r e p a r i n g a n d j u s t fi n d o u t
20

a b o u t B a p u Tr a d i n g to s a y t h e c o m p a n y t h a t g e ts 3 0 0 – y o u g o t h e r e
you do not get much.

There is nothing and then you say to yourself

t h e n w h e r e h a s t h e c o m p a n y d is a p p e a r e d t o w i t h s o m u c h m o n e y a n d
m o s t o f t h e s e c o m p a n ie s h e r e C h a ir – I m e a n – t h e y h a v e g o t li t tl e o r
n o o n l in e p r e s e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r th e y h a v e

ju s t a f te r t h e y h a v e r a k e d in t h e s e s u m s o f m o n e y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e y h a v e j u s t d is a p p e a r e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d – a n d I d o n o t k n o w h o w i t w o r d s
- y o u k n o w – i n t e r m s o f w h e n y o u r u n a c o m p a n y t h a t y o u r e g i s te r w i t h
the CIPC …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o m e t i m e s th o s e a n d t h e n a l l o f a

s u d d e n i t d is a p p e a r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o – s o t h a t is t h e m o d u s o p e r a n d i

that is happening in most of these companies.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Can I check …?
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t a m o u n t o f – p a i d t o B a p u Tr a d i n g C l o s e

C o r p o r a ti o n n a m e ly 3 2 7 m il li o n – 3 2 7 8 - r o u g h ly m il li o n – t h a t w a s p a i d
in s m a ll e r a m o u n t s o v e r a c e r ta i n p e r io d o f ti m e ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . S o a s I s a i d t h a t …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A s y o u s e e t h e r e t h e p a g e s h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o – s o t h is is n o w n o t t a k in g t h e d a t e
in t o a c c o u n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o w h e r e n o t t a k i n g – h e r e w e a r e n o t
taking the date …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : B u t w e a r e s a y i n g h o w m u c h w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : P a id b y H o m i x t o ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D u r ig n t h e p e r i o d …
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : D u r i n g t h e p e r io d th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: 2014 to 2015.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . T h a t w e h a v e m e n ti o n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. S o – a n d t h a t p e r i o d is – is a b o u t a y e a r
fr o m – 2 8 M a r c h 2 0 1 4 – o h i t is ju s t o v e r a y e a r t o 3 0 J u n e 2 0 1 5 ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is j u s t a b o u t m a y b e 1 4 m o n th s / 1 5 m o n t h s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

20

S o w h e n y o u g o to th e s p r e a d s h e e t

h e r e b e c a u s e i t i n v o l v e s o t h e r t h i n g s C h a ir p e r s o n .

S o it is q u it e

in v o lv e d . L e t m e j u s t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J u s t t o m a k e s u r e b e c a u s e i t s t a r ts o n
2 0 1 4 w i th a b a la n c e b r o u g h t f o r w a r d o n 2 8 M a r c h a n d th e n i t g o e s a l l
t h e w a y to e n d …

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O n 2 0 1 5 / 1 2 / 0 3 . S o fr o m t h e r e – s o i t
is – it is a m o r e t h a n a y e a r. M a y b e 2 0 m o n th s o r 2 1 m o n t h s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s b u t t h a t is w h a t t h e y …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . T h i s …
CHAIRPERSON: Were paid by Homix yes.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h is i s w h a t t h e y p a i d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : To B a p u Tr a d in g C l o s e C o r p o r a t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s a n d y o u s a y w h e n y o u l o o k f o r t h e m n o w y o u
c a n n o t r e a ll y s e e m u c h o f t h e m ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

As I said yesterday when I was

p r e p a r in g fo r t h e s e s s i o n to d a y – a s I s a i d – le t m e ju s t t a k e s o m e t i m e
a n d b e c u r io u s a n d j u s t c h e c k a s t o w h o a r e t h e s e g u y s a n d h o w a r e
t h e y d o in g – y o u k n o w. C a n I j u s t a n o r m a l w e b s i t e l ik e a n y o th e r b u t
y o u fi n d n o th i n g . I t b e c o m e s l ik e a f o r e x tr a d i n g c o m p a n y u n r e l a te d t o
t h is a n d a l l th a t .

S o – s o t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g u n d e r h a n d t h a t w a s

h a p p e n in g h e r e t h a t th e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s t h e r e – I k n o w t h a t y o u k n o w
20

2 0 1 5 is s o m e n e a r l y f iv e y e a r s a g o b u t – y o u k n o w – s ti ll – I m e a n - I
d o n o t k n o w a s t o w h a t t h e y w e r e tr a d i n g t h a t a t t h a t s h o r t p e r i o d o f
ti m e b e c a u s e 3 2 7 m i ll io n i f y o u a r e r e a ll y t r a d i n g a n d y o u g e t 3 2 7 y o u
a r e d o i n g v e r y w e ll in 2 0 m o n th s t h a t y o u a r e g e t ti n g th is a m o u n t o f
m o n e y.
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d y o u – d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r s u b s e q u e n t t o th a t

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
p e r i o d t h e r e w a s a n y a c t iv i t y f o r s o m e t i m e ? S u b s e q u e n t t o t h e p e r i o d
y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t o r t h a t is th e o n l y p e r io d f o r w h ic h t h e r e is
a c ti v i ty in t h a t a c c o u n t – t h e r e w a s a c t iv i ty i n th a t a c c o u n t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o i n t h a t r e g a r d C h a ir I a m g u id e d b y
t h e s t a te m e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

B e c a u s e I d o n o t h a v e a n y t h in g

b e y o n d t h is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o t h a t i s f i n e .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o I c a n n o t v o u c h …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, well …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A s t o w h e th e r t h e r e w a s a n y t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t w o u ld b e in t e r e s ti n g t o e s t a b li s h w h e th e r t h e r e w a s
a n y fu r t h e r a c tiv i ty i n t h e s a m e a c c o u n t b e y o n d th a t p e r i o d a n d w h e n
a c ti v i ti e s in t h e a c c o u n t s to p p e d i f t h e y d id s t o p .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To e s t a b lis h t h a t . O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Can I understand this modus operandi

a n d I a m – I a m p ic k in g u p fr o m y o u r s t a te m e n t w h e r e y o u s a y t h a t
t h e r e w e r e h u g e m o n ie s w h ic h w e r e p a i d t o H o m ix w h i c h a r e d e r iv e d
fr o m – y o u k n o w – tr a n s a c ti o n s w i th t h e S O E s …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d th e r e a ft e r o n c e t h a t m o n e y la n d s

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
in t o H o m ix a c c o u n t i t g e ts n o w p a i d t o fu r t h e r o t h e r e n t it i e s w h ic h
m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n i n a r e l a t i o n s h i p a t a ll w i t h t h e S O E .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s .

T h a t is w h e r e I a m g o in g t o

s h o w y o u o n p a r a g r a p h – w e h a v e n o t a r r iv e d t h e r e – p a r a g r a p h 7 4 .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r y o u m ig h t

me to go there just …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No, no.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

J u s t – i f y o u c a n j u s t c l a r i fy th a t

essence.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u k n o w – t h e m o d u s o p e r a n d i i s t h a t

how …?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e m o d u s o p e r a n d i?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d I w il l – w h e n I c o m e to p a r a g r a p h
7 4 I w i ll j u s t s h o w y o u a n e x a m p le w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

There is quite a number of such

tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t c o m e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: That comes?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Now you have dealt with Bapu. We have
seen how much it has now been paid and we are about to go to

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
in t e r - a c c o u n t .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s .

S o i n t e r - a c c o u n t tr a n s f e r s w il l

b e y o u r a c c o u n t tr a n s f e r s b e t w e e n y o u r c a l l a c c o u n t a n d y o u r – a n d
your current account.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s .

So as I said there were – you

c a n s e e t h e a m o u n t s . T h e y e v e n s e e m v e r y c l o s e t o e a c h o th e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s a n d t h e n t o M e r c a n t il e 6 6 t h a t i s
10

w h a t a c tu a l ly fa c i li t a te d t h e – th e – s o t h e y p a i d M e r c a n ti le .

I think

t h is w a s g o i n g t o th e tr a d e a c c o u n t t o fa c il i ta t e th e 5 1 . 8 m il li o n .

So

t h a t w h e n t o M e r c a n t il e a n d w e h a d a c o m p a n y b y t h e n a m e o f
B a ll a to r e . T h e y g o t 2 4 m il li o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y – I a m s o r r y. I n te r - a c c o u n t tr a n s f e r s w e r e t h e y
– w e r e th o s e tr a n s f e r s g o i n g o n e w a y ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e y c o u ld b e g o i n g e i th e r w a y C h a ir.
So …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
20

S o y o u c o u l d b e h a v i n g a b u lk o f

m o n e y i n y o u r c u r r e n t a c c o u n t t h a t y o u fe e l t h a t is e a r n i n g m u c h
in t e r e s t a n d y o u r e q u e s t t h e b a n k t o d o a tr a n s fe r to th e c a ll a c c o u n t
b u t w h e n th e r e a r e d u e p a y m e n ts c o m in g i n to y o u r c u r r e n t a c c o u n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Yo u a s k t h e b a n k t o tr a n s fe r t h e

m o n e y.

Page 41 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o t h a t i s w h y t h e r e w a s m o v e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A n d t h e n w e h a d B a ll a t o r e 2 4 3 0 0 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : M e r c a n ti le B a n k y o u d id n o t fi n is h . I i n te r r u p t e d y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d t o m e n ti o n t h e a m o u n t .
10

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ja,

66 999 001

Brands

and

then

B a ll a to r e

the

M e r c a n til e
(Pty)

–

they

got

Limited

they

got

R 2 4 3 11 9 5 0 a n d th e r e i s u n i d e n t i fi e d 5 0 8 4 0 . S A R S …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h e n y o u s a y u n id e n ti fi e d i t m e a n s t h a t
t h e r e w a s n o – y o u c o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o e s t a b lis h …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : S o …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A s to w h o w a s p a id t h is m o n e y o r w h ic h
e n t i ty r e c e iv e d t h is …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h ic h e n ti ty r e c e i v e d th is m o n e y ?
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : I a m n o t a u f a i t in t e r m s o f – b e c a u s e
w h e n y o u p a y s o m e b o d y t h a t – f o r – t h r o u g h m a y b e y o u r in t e r n e t
b a n k i n g a c c o u n t th e b a n k w il l s a y – p u t t h e r e f e r e n c e a s to w h e r e t h e
m o n e y c o m e s fr o m …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

W h a ts o e v e r.

Page 42 of 223

So I do not know what

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
happened here. Whether it was hidden by purpose that – you know –
t h e y d i d n o t w a n t t o b e – a n d a l s o w h e t h e r I th i n k a ls o i t q u e s ti o n s
w h e t h e r th e b a n k s a l l o w t h is t h a t – y o u k n o w – y o u c o u ld a c tu a l ly t h e n
d r i v e a c c o u n ts w i th u n id e n ti fi e d . I t is a – i t w i ll b e a c o n c e r n i f m a y b e
it – it c o u ld h a p p e n b e c a u s e I – I k n o w t h a t i f I a m u s i n g m y a c c o u n t
w h e r e y o u a r e p a y i n g a r e c i p ie n t th e b a n k w i ll w a n t to k n o w …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h o th e r e c ip ie n t …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : T h e r e f e r e n c e n u m b e r. S o t h a t w h e n
t h e y r e c e iv e t h e m o n e y t h e y c o u l d k n o w f r o m w h o m th e m o n e y w a s
10

c o m i n g f r o m a n d i f y o u d o n o t f e e l t h a t i t w ill n o t g o t h r o u g h b u t I a m
ju s t s u r p r i s e d .

A s I s a i d I a m n o t in a c o m m e r c i a l b a n k a s t o w h y it

w a s a n u n i d e n ti f ie d 5 0 8 4 0 a n d t h e n e x t o n e i s S A R S .

I t h i n k i t is

e i t h e r th e y o w e d S A R S - s o y o u c a n s e e t h a t – y o u k n o w – m a y b e
H o m i x h e r e w a s a s I s a id m a y b e t h e y j u s t o w e d S A R S .

We do not

k n o w. T h e r e th e y a e p a y i n g 4 9 6 6 8 9 .7 0 a n d – a n d t h e n M r T H a s w a r e –
t h e s e a r e th e s i g n a t o r ie s t h a t I a l lu d e d t o e a r l ie r.

Mr Hasware was

p a i d 1 8 0 4 1 5 . 4 8 a n d M r A d a ms w a s p a i d 6 0 4 0 2 . 8 2 a n d th e n y o u h a v e
g o t P e r i tu s . P e r i t u s is t h a t Tr e a s u r y O u ts o u r c in g C o m p a n y …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

That

was

a

m id d le m a n

between

M e r c a n ti l e a n d H o m i x . T h e y g o t 3 7 8 0 5 . 11 a n d th e y w e r e p a y i n g f e e s .
I t h i n k it is b a n k f e e s th e r e a n d i t is Vo d a c o m . I t c o u l d b e c h a r g e s j u s t
h e r e . E d g e M e d ia , d e b i t c a r d p u r c h a s e s , Fi r s t Pr o p e r t y. S o t h o s e a r e
ju s t s m a l l m is c e ll a n e o u s a c c o u n ts .

I d o n o t k n o w if y o u w a n t m e t o

m e n ti o n t h e m C h a ir t h o s e s m a ll m is c e ll a n e o u s a c c o u n ts .

Page 43 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No, no we have them.
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i s f in e .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s . T h e n I c a n g o t o 7 2 .2 c r e d it s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s 7 2 . 2 ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: On page 25?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

On page 25.

Now these are the

m o n i e s t h a t w e r e c o m i n g in t o th e a c c o u n t s o f H o m i x .
10

S o o n t o p i t is

in t e r - a c c o u n t p a y m e n t o f 2 4 1 2 6 0 0 0 0 a n d R e g i m e n ts C a p i t a l a n d t h a t
r a i s e d – b e c a u s e I t h in k a m o n g s t a l l o f th is w e w il l a ll u d e l a t e r t o
R e g i m e n t s C a p it a l – p a id H o m ix 1 7 9 5 0 6 5 8 3 .4 8 a n d th e n N e o t e l – I
h a v e a l r e a d y a ll u d e d t o e a r l i e r i n t e r m s o f t h e c o n tr a c t b e t w e e n i t a n d
Tr a n s n e t .

T h e y p a id H o m i x 7 5 5 7 3 5 0 9 .8 8 .

Te c h n o l o g y Pr o c u r e m e n t

H o l d i n g s t h e y p a id H o m i x 6 8 4 0 0 0 0 0 . C e n tr a l H i g h Tr a d i n g 2 7 5 ( P ty )
L i m i t e d t h e y p a i d H o m ix 5 1 3 0 0 0 0 0 . C o m b in e d Pr iv a te I n v e s t ig a ti o n s
C l o s e C o r p o r a ti o n s t h e y p a i d H o m ix 1 7 5 1 0 4 0 0 .

Innova Management

S e r v ic e s R 6 3 8 4 0 0 0 a n d – a n d th e n . J a , i t is 6 3 8 4 …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I th i n k i t i s m il li o n s th is m o n e y.
20

M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
has got 6 384 000.

J a . A p o lo g i e s – In n o v a M a n a g e m e n t

C u t ti n g E d g e C o m m e r c e h a s g o t 6 2 6 9 1 5 3 . 1 6 .

B a p u Tr a d i n g th e y g o t – t h e y p a i d – s o – t h a t is w h y w e a r e s u r p r is e d .
T h e y g e t 4 . 3 2 7 m i ll io n b u t th e y a l s o p a y H o m ix 4 . 7 m il li o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : A l b a ti m e – s o t h e y p a id 3 . 9 9 m il li o n to

Page 44 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
Homix.

S e c h a b a C o m p u t e r S e r v ic e s ( Pt y ) L i m i te d 2 7 2 5 9 3 7 . 0 1 .

B u r li n g t o n S t r a t e g y A d v i s o r s ( P ty ) L i m i t e d 1 .8 m il li o n . T h e r e i s a n o t h e r
o n e a n u n id e n ti fi e d 1 3 4 1 1 2 8 . 1 7 .

SARS – OI do not know whether it

w a s a r e f u n d 7 8 0 1 8 .7 5 a n d th e n y o u h a v e g o t a m is c e ll a n e o u s o f
R42.41.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e to t a l a m o u n t w h i c h …
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : W a s c r e d it e d …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Went into the account of Homix?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O : J a , 6 6 0 8 3 8 7 8 2 . 8 6 .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Were

you

able

to

e s ta b lis h

what

b u s i n e s s w a s H o m ix d o i n g i n o r d e r f o r i t to r e c e iv e th e s e h u g e
a m o u n ts ?
M R S H I WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

There is no rationale because that –

w e f o u n d t h a t w h a t t y p e o f b u s i n e s s th e y w e r e d o i n g a n d b e c a u s e t h e –
t h e s e c o m p a n ie s – y o u k n o w - i t is - i t i s v e n d o r s th a t – y o u k n o w –
b e c a u s e I a s k e d – y o u k n o w – w h e n w e d i d t h e in v e s ti g a t io n to s a y
a c t u a ll y i f s o m e b o d y c o u ld a s k m e a n d s a y w h a t w a s H o m i x i m p o r ti n g i f
w e g o b a c k t o t h e tr a n s a c ti o n o f Fr id a y.
i m p o r t i n g t e x ti l e s .
20

I w a s t o ld th a t t h e y w e r e

Now you look at companies here that are here

w h e t h e r t h e y a r e r e l a t e d t o a t e x ti le ty p e o f b u s i n e s s .

Th e y a r e n o t

related to that type of business.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M o r e s o i f y o u h a v e r e g a r d t o R e g i m e n ts
a n d N e o t e l w h ic h w e k n o w …
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s R e g i m e n ts a n d N e o t e l t h e s e a r e

t h e c o m p a n i e s t h a t h a v e b e e n m e n ti o n e d in s e v e r a l o t h e r m a t t e r s , y o u

Page 45 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
n o w, i n v o l v i n g t h e s t a t e c a p t u r e a s w e l l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h e r e s o m e s i g n i f ic a n c e in t h e fa c t th a t th e

a m o u n ts o n b o th th e – y o u r c o l u m n a t p a g e 2 4 a n d y o u r c o lu m n a t 2 5
t h a t t h e t o ta ls a r e m o r e o r l e s s t h e s a m e , t h e y ’r e b o t h 6 6 0 m il li o n r a n d ,
t h e o n e a t p a g e 2 4 t h e t o ta l is 6 6 0 7 9 2 9 4 0 .7 9 t h e y o n e a t p a g e 2 5 , t h e
t o t a l o f t h is p a y m e n ts 6 6 0 8 3 8 7 8 2 . 8 6 . S o t h e o n e 6 6 0 7 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 to
r o u n d i t o ff a n d t h e o t h e r o n e is 6 6 0 8 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 .
ADV

PHILLIP

MOKOENA

SC:

I

posed

the

same

q u e s ti o n

C h a ir … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Of

6 6 0 8 0 0 0 0 0 .0 0

and

the

other

one

6 6 0 7 0 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 is th e r e s o m e s i g n i f ic a n c e in t h a t r e g a r d ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h e r e C h a ir – o u r a s s u m p ti o n is th a t

w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e m o n e y t h a t w a s p a id o u t , i t ’s t h e m o n e y t h a t c a m e
in .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a l m o s t a ll o f i t w a s p a i d o u t ?

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s a n d y o u w il l s e e w h e n I s h o w – I

s t il l w a n t t o s h o w t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h i n te r m s o f h o w t h e s m a l le r
a m o u n ts , w h e n t h e y a r e p a i d , h o w q u i c k ly t h e y g e t d e p le t e d o u t o f th e
account, so somebody might have been monitoring the credit into
20

H o m i x a n d s a y, o k a y w h o d o w e n e e d t o p a s s t h e m o n e y o n t o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So that maybe we don’t go above,

m a y b e th e li m i t a t t h e b a n k if t h e y h a d a o v e r d r a f t t o s a y h o w m u c h –
a n d th e n m o r e o r l e s s i t’s q u i t e s u r p r is in g th a t 6 6 0 m ill i o n i s e q u iv a le n t
d e b it s a n d c r e d i ts .

Page 46 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s a n d o v e r t h e s a m e p e r i o d a s

w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t i t s h o w s t h a t a s a n d w h e n th a t

m o n e y c a m e i n i t a lr e a d y h a d s o m e b e n e f i c ia r i e s … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s . H o w H o m ix o p e r a t e d , th a t w h e n

t h e m o n e y c a m e i n , s o t h e r e – t h a t is w h y w e s a y t h e r e w a s a fl u r r y o f
a c ti v i ty d u r in g t h a t p e r i o d a n d t h e n f r o m t h e r e w h a t w a s l e ft w a s j u s t
10

f o r b a n k i n g fe e s , th e m o n e y w a s d e p l e t e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d

h a v i n g a n a ly s e d , y o u k n o w,

t h a t c a s h f l o w o n p a g e 2 5 p a r a g r a p h 7 3 y o u m a k e s o m e o b s e r v a t io n s ,
c a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h th o s e o b s e r v a t io n s in p a r a g r a p h 7 3 .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s I ’v e a lr e a d y a l l u d e d to t h e f a c t

t h a t t h e b a n k a c c o u n t s t a t e m e n t o f H o m ix r e fl e c t r e g u l a r l a r g e tr a n s f e r s
t o t h e a c c o u n ts o f t w o lo c a l e n t it i e s b e in g B e la t o p B r a n d s ( P t y ) L t d a n d
r e g is tr a ti o n

number

2 0 11 / 1 0 3 0 2 3 /0 7

and

Bapu

Tr a d i n g

Close

C o r p o r a ti o n r e g is tr a t i o n n u m b e r 2 0 0 8 / 0 0 0 8 4 3 4 /2 3 r e s p e c tiv e ly. S o w e
w e r e a ll u d i n g t h e r e t o t h a t b i g a m o u n t o f 3 2 7 m il li o n r a n d , b e c a u s e
20

s in c e B a p u g o t t h e b u lk o f th e m o n ie s h e r e , t h a t ’s w h y I w a s v e r y m u c h
in t e r e s te d t o s a y, w h a t is th e b u s i n e s s o f B a p u Tr a d i n g .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s n o w l e t’s d e a l w i t h t h e p a r a g r a p h

t h a t y o u ’v e b e e n d y i n g t o ta k e t h e C h a ir to , p a r a g r a p h 7 4 a n d o n w a r d s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s s o p a r a g r a p h 7 4 w e ’r e j u s t

s a y in g n o ta b ly d u r i n g A p r i l 2 0 1 4 a n a m o u n t o f R 3 4 5 3 3 5 9 8 .0 0 a p p e a r s

Page 47 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t o b e tr a n s f e r r e d fr o m N e o te l t o H o m i x c h e q u e a c c o u n t

h e ld w i t h

S t a n d a r d B a n k a f t e r w h ic h t h e e n ti r e a m o u n t w a s d e p le t e d b y m e a n s o f
e l e c tr o n ic tr a n s fe r t o B e la t o p B r a n d s .

S o I w a n t t o t a k e y o u to th e

s p r e a d s h e e t t h a t I ju s t w a n t t o h i g h li g h t w h e r e th e 3 4 mi ll i o n c a m e i n .
I t c a m e i n to t h e a c c o u n t o f H o m ix t h e r e it s a y s 2 0 1 4 … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Yo u m u s t t e l l u s w h e r e y o u ’r e ta k i n g u s

t h r o u g h t h i s …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o it ’s ( i n d i s t i n c t) fl o w a n a ly s is i t ’s

t h e fi r s t p a g e o n p a g e 3 5 4 , s o I’ m n o w o n t h e S C M 2 0 .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I’ m n o w o n t h e S C M 2 0 , t h e f ir s t

page, page 354.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s a n d t h e n I ’ m g o in g to th e a t e

t h e r e 2 0 1 4 - 0 4 - 0 3 a n d th e d a te s w il l b e o n t h e l e f t s i d e - c o n s o l id a t e a r e
o n t h e l e f t h a n d a n d t h e n i t s a i d h e r e i n t e r m s o f t h e ty p e o f
tr a n s a c ti o n … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t i s t h e d a te ?

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
20

CHAIRPERSON:

2014-04-03.

O k a y, I s e e i n t e r b a n k c r e d i t tr a n s fe r th e r e , is t h a t

the one?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

O k a y.

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

A n d th e n t h e n e x t b l o c k i s N e o t e l V D ,

I c a n ’ t s e e , i t ’s lik e a 7 4 0 s o m e t h in g th e r e b u t it ’s N e o t e l ?

Page 48 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON:

L ik e W a l t ?

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

J a v a n d e r W a lt S t r e e t 7 4 0 .

N e o te l v a n d e r W a l t S tr e e t, 7 4 0 .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

A n d t h e n y o u ’l l s e e o n th e d e b i t

t h e r e ’s a z e r o , o n t h e c r e d it th e r e ’s a 3 4 5 3 3 5 1 9 . 8 8 a n d th e n i f y o u g o
d o w n i m m e d i a te ly o n t h e 2 0 1 4 - 0 4 - 0 8 e l e c t r o n ic b a n k i n g , t h a t 3 4 m i ll io n
is b e i n g d e p l e t e d g o in g t o B a p u Tr a d i n g .

So y o u ’ ll s e e t h a t th e r e ’s a

4 9 0 0 0 2 4 . 0 0 th a t g o e s th r o u g h o n th e 8 t h a n d th e n th e r e ’s a n o t h e r
3 9 2 4 3 0 0 . 0 0 t h a t g o e s o n t h e 9 t h . S o i f y o u g o fu r t h e r y o u ’ll fi n d th a t
10

t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s t h e y g o u p t o 2 0 1 4 - 0 4 - 1 0 w h e r e i t’s e l e c tr o n ic
banking

payments

to

Bapu

Tr a d in g

with

the

last

payment

of

1 2 4 0 0 0 0 . 0 0 , t h a t is p a y i n g . S o i t ’s a d e p le ti o n b u t I’ m j u s t a l lu d i n g to
w h a t t h e c o u n s e l a ll u d e d to , to s a y, w h e n t h e s e m o n i e s c o m e i n t o –
t h e y d o n ’ t s t a y i m m e d ia t e l y th e y n e e d t o b e s h i f t e d e ls e w h e r e . S o w i th
t h e tw o s t a t e m e n ts th a t ’s w h a t n o r m a l ly h a p p e n s , i f y o u a r e l a u n d e r i n g
m o n e y y o u d o n ’t w a n t i t to s a y b e c a u s e t h e m o r e i t s t a y s s o m e e y e s
m i g h t s t a r t t o p ic k o n a c t iv it y o r w h a t e v e r th e b a n k m i g h t b l o c k it o r
w h a ts o e v e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

Ye s a n d th e n r e la t io n to p a r a g r a p h 7 5 ?

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o p a r a g r a p h 7 5 it is p e r t i n e n t to

m e n ti o n t h a t a t t h e ti m e in q u e s ti o n t h e s o le d ir e c to r o f B a la t o p B r a n d s
w a s M r M o h a m m e d A k r i m K h a n a n d t h a t th is d e p a r t m e n t h a d p r e v i o u s l y
r e p o r t e d th e m a t te r t o t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n P o lic e C e n tr a l c a s e n u m b e r
9 7 / 0 5 i n 2 0 1 5 i n v o lv in g a n o t h e r c o m p a n y o f w h i c h M r K h a n w a s h e s o le
d ir e c t o r, b e in g S i n g e n t D is tr i b u t io n ( P t y ) L t d r e g is tr a ti o n n u m b e r

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
2 0 11 /1 0 3 0 2 2 /0 7 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h i s w il l fa ll in t o th o s e c a s e s w h ic h y o u

s a i d th e y w e r e r e p o r t e d b u t y o u w e r e n o t f u r n i s h e d w it h a n y p r o g r e s s
p e r t a in in g t o t h o s e c a s e s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s th a t i s p a r t o f t h o s e c a s e s b u t i t

a ls o s h o w s t h a t t h e s e c o m p a n i e s a r e s h e n a n i g a n s C h a i r p e r s o n , th a t
t h e s e s o l e d ir e c t o r s , c o m p a n ie s th a t in m o s t c a s e s t h a t th e y a r e
in v o lv e d , w e h a v e f o u n d s o m e , s o r t o f c o n tr a v e n ti o n s t h a t – fr o m t h e
d e p a r t m e n t th a t w e e i t h e r w e n e e d t o d e a l w i t h t h e m o r w e n e e d t o
10

r e p o r t t h e m t o t h e p o l ic e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d p a r a g r a p h 7 6 a n d o n w a r d s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z IB U K O :

A n d s o – t h e n p a r a g r a p h 7 6 it w o u ld

a p p e a r fr o m th e s t a t e m e n ts o f B a p u Tr a d i n g b a n k a c c o u n t , h e l d w i th
S t a n d a r d B a n k th a t fu n d s r e c e i v e d fr o m H o m ix w e r e m a in ly tr a n s fe r r e d
t o S i n g e n t ’s b a n k a c c o u n t . N o w w e d o n ’t h a v e t h i s , h e r e t h e y a r e
r e fe r r i n g t o B a p u Tr a d i n g r e c e i p t o f f u n d s fr o m S t a n d a r d B a n k t h a t –
fr o m th e n B a p u – fr o m H o m i x , B a p u Tr a d i n g , B a p u Tr a d i n g , S i n g e n t
b a n k a c c o u n t, t h a t ’s w h e r e t h e m o n e y w e r e t r a n s f e r r e d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

Ye s a n d t h a t’s t h e p o in t y o u a r e m a k i n g

a ls o fr o m – i n p a r a g r a p h 7 7 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

So in paragraph 77 as well the

a c c o u n t o f B a p u Tr a d i n g it a ls o a p p e a r s t h a t r e g u la r tr a n s fe r s w e r e i n
t u r n m a d e f r o m t h e a c c o u n t o f B a p u Tr a d i n g t o F G C C o m m o d i ti e s a s
w e ll a s C o m o d o W h o l e s a le r s ( P t y ) L td .

C o m o d o h a s a ls o b e e n t h e

s u b j e c t o f i n v e s ti g a t i o n b y t h e f in a n c i a l s u r v e i ll a n c e d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h

Page 50 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
in v e s t i g a t io n r e l a t e d t o th e p u r c h a s e o f l a r g e q u a n t i ti e s o f fo r e ig n
c u r r e n c y i n c a s h u n d e r s u s p i c i o u s c ir c u m s t a n c e s . S o I a ll u d e t h a t m o s t
o f t h e s e c o m p a n ie s , s o le d i r e c t o r s , b u t t h e y s e e m n o t t o b e v e r y c le a n
c o m p a n i e s th a t th e r e a r e s o m e a c t iv i t ie s t h a t a r e t a k i n g p l a c e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d y o u a ls o c o n f ir m to th e C h a ir th a t

o n e w o u l d n o t b e a b l e t o v e r i fy a n y ty p e o f b u s in e s s t h a t th e y m i g h t b e
in v o lv e d in ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

No.

( I n d is t in c t ) r e c e i v i n g t h o s e m o n i e s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

J u s t r e p e a t t h a t C h a ir.
I’ m t a lk i n g a b o u t t h i s F G C a n d C o m o d o ,

o n e c a n n o t r e a ll y v e r i fy a s to w h a t b u s i n e s s a r e t h e y i n v o lv e d in ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I t ’s v e r y d i ffi c u l t e v e n B a l a to p , y o u

k n o w w h e n w e m e n t i o n e d th a t t h e tw o b ig r e c i p i e n ts o f m o n i e s f r o m
H o m i x a c c o u n t w a s B a p u – I s t il l d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t B a p u d o e s , I s t il l
d o n ’t k n o w w h a t B a l a t o p d o e s a n d th a t ’s w h y I’ m s a y i n g th a t th e y ’v e
d is a p p e a r e d n o w w e c a n ’ t , y o u k n o w, t h e f ir s t o n li n e s e a r c h t h a t y o u
d o , y o u c a n ’t f in d a n y t h i n g b e c a u s e a n o r m a l b u s in e s s a n d a o n g o i n g
c o n c e r n t h a t is t h e r e t o a c t u a l ly m a k e b u s in e s s a n d m a k e m o n e y w il l
20

a l w a y s b e t h e r e , I c a n ’ t f i n d a n y th i n g in t h a t r e g a r d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s in p a r a g r a p h 7 8 y o u ’r e r e f e r r i n g t o

a c o m p a n y, o n e c o m p a n y c a ll e d C h a v i t a Tr a d in g w h ic h t h e C h a ir h a s
a lr e a d y h e a r d e v i d e n c e a b o u t i t.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Can you tell us.

Page 51 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o o n p a r a g r a p h 7 8 r e g u la r tr a n s f e r s

w e r e m a d e f r o m t h e a c c o u n t o f B a p u to a n o t h e r e n ti ty s t y l e d C h a v i t a
Tr a d in g , r e g is tr a t i o n n u m b e r 2 0 1 0 / 0 0 1 9 0 5 9 0 7 a n d i n t h i s r e g a r d it
w o u ld a p p e a r th a t t h e o p e n i n g d o c u m e n t a t i o n i n r e s p e c t o f a c c o u n t
h e l d a t F ir s t R a n d B a n k L i m i te d i n t h e n a m e o f M r B h e k o , th e s o l e
d ir e c t o r o f H o m ix w h o i n s tr u c t e d P e r i t a s a s e x p l a i n e d p r e v io u s ly th a t
h e w a s e m p l o y e d b y C h e v it a Tr a d in g a t s o m e p o i n t .

S o w e ’r e j u s t

tr y i n g to li n k h e r e t h e s o l e d ir e c t o r o f H o m ix a t s o m e s t a g e a n d th is
c o m p a n y t h a t – M r B h e k o a t o n e s t a g e w a s e m p l o y e d , it d o e s n ’ t
10

m e n ti o n – I d o n ’t h a v e t h e d e t a i ls a s w h a t b u t h e w a s e m p lo y e d b y
C h a v i ta , y o u ’ ll s e e a s w e p r o g r e s s in te r ms o f th e r o l e t h a t C h a v i ta
played at some stage here.
A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C :

Yo u r e f e r r e d t o t h e a c c o u n t o f S t a n d a r d

B a n k w h ic h a ls o w a s u ti li s e d b y H o m ix in r e c e iv i n g c e r t a i n fu n d s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s , in p a r a g r a p h 7 9 H o m ix a l s o

r e c e i v e d fu n d s i n t o i t’s S t a n d a r d B a n k a c c o u n t fr o m a c c o u n t h e l d a t
A b s a B a n k i n t h e n a m e o f A l b e r t y n r e g is t r a ti o n n u m b e r 2 0 0 9 – I d o n ’ t
k n o w C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t y o u a r e p i c k i n g a th r e a d h e r e , th a t th e s e
c o m p a n i e s r e g is tr a ti o n 2 0 11 , 2 0 0 9 , 2 0 1 0 , th e r e ’s m o r e o r le s s d u r in g
20

t h a t p e r i o d th e r e w a s a f lu r r y o f a c ti v i ty o f r e g is t e r in g t h e s e s o l e
d ir e c t o r s h ip c o m p a n i e s . S o e v e n t h e t i m in g y o u k n o w, h o w i t c o r r e l a t e s
t o o n e a n o t h e r a n d th e n t h e y i n v o lv e d in th e s a m e b u s i n e s s , i t ’s ju s t
a c t u a ll y s u r p r is in g . S o h e r e i n p a r a g r a p h 7 9 w e j u s t n o w i n tr o d u c e th e
c o m p a n y t h a t a ls o p a i d i n to H o mi x .

W e h a v e a lr e a d y s e e n in t h e

s p r e a d s h e e t, A l b e r t y n a n d a t a ll t h e r e le v a n t ti m e t h e s o l e d ir e c t o r o f

Page 52 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
A l b e r t y n w a s Mr ( in d i s ti n c t) M o o d l e y a n d t h e n o n p a r a g r a p h 8 0 w e t a l k
a b o u t s e v e r a l l a r g e t r a n s f e r s t h a t w e r e m a d e i n to a c c o u n t o f H o m ix
fr o m a c c o u n t s h e l d w i th S t a n d a r d B a n k i n th e n a m e o f R e g i m e n ts
C a p it a l. N o w th is is t h e c o m p a n y w h e r e w e w r o t e t o a f t e r – b e c a u s e o f
t h e n u m b e r o f t r a n s a c t io n s th a t – a n d t h e n u m b e r o f m a t te r s in th e
m e d i a a n d w e j u s t a s k e d t h e m a s t o w h a t ty p e o f b u s i n e s s w e r e t h e y
in v o lv e d w i t h , w i th H o m ix a n d I r e m e m b e r w e w r o t e a le t t e r w h ic h
a c t u a ll y t o o k l o n g f o r t h e m t o r e s p o n d t o t h a t le t t e r u n ti l w e th r e a te n e d
t h e m w i th s o m e le g a l a c ti o n a n d t h e y r e s p o n d e d .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h a t w a s t h e ir r e s p o n s e ?

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o t h e r e s p o n d – s o i f I m a y g o to

t h e ir r e s p o n s e S E M 2 1 j u s t th e fi r s t p a r a g r a p h t o s a y – j u s t t o
r e a d … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

P a g e 3 5 9 C h a ir.

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s p a g e 3 5 9 I’l l j u s t a l lu d e b e c a u s e

o n c e y o u s ta r t to g o f u r th e r, i t n o w g o e s t o th e Tr a n s n e t S O E p e n s io n
f u n d w h ic h w a s d e a l t w i th h e r e , I t h i n k l a s t w e e k .

I ’ m g o in g to fo c u s

h e r e , s o p a g e 3 5 9 is th e le t t e r th a t w e – s o t h e y w e r e r e s p o n d i n g s o
y o u c a n s e e th a t t h e y r e s p o n d e d 1 2 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 h a v i n g – w h e r e i t
20

s a y s D e a r s ir s , r e q u e s t fo r i n f o r m a t io n n u m b e r o n e s a y s y o u r r e q u e s t
f o r i n fo r m a ti o n d a te d 1 0 M a y 2 0 1 7 r e f e r s . S o i t w a s m o r e th a n n e a r l y
1 8 m o n t h s t h a t t h e y r e s p o n d e d to u s a n d t h e n w h e r e n u m b e r t w o w h e r e
t h e y s a y – t h e s e a r e t h e l a w y e r s o f R e g i m e n t s a n d t h e y s a y,
“ A s m e n t io n e d i n e a r li e r e m a i l c o r r e s p o n d e n c e th e r e a p p e a r s
t o h a v e b e e n m i s u n d e r s ta n d i n g b e tw e e n o u r c li e n t

Page 53 of 223

and

BDK

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
Attorneys

r e g a r d in g

the

r e s p o n s ib il i ty

to

deal

w it h

your

request.

B D K w a s u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t o u r c li e n t

h a d b r i e f e d u s to a t t e n d to y o u r r e q u e s t w h i c h w a s n o t th e
c a s e . O u r c li e n t o n th e o t h e r h a n d w a s u n d e r th e i m p r e s s i o n
t h a t B D K h a d a t te n d e d t h e r e t o ” ,
A n d t h e n t h e y s a y o n p a r a g r a p h f o u r,
“ T h i s h a s c a u s e d a c o n s i d e r a b le d e la y in r e s p o n d i n g t o y o u f o r
w h ic h w e a p o l o g is e o n b e h a l f o f o u r c li e n t s i n c e h a v in g b e e n
e n tr u s t e d w i t h th e m a t t e r w e h a v e w o r k e d d i li g e n tl y to g e th e r
10

w i t h o u r c l i e n t to g a t h e r t h e in f o r m a t io n s o u g h t. W e t r u s t t h a t
t h e in f o r m a ti o n w il l a s s is t y o u w i t h y o u r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s ” .
S o e v e n t u a l ly – b u t I m u s t s a y t h a t i t w a s a f t e r w e h a v e
a c t u a ll y s a i d t o t h e m , y o u k n o w, w e w il l t a k e le g a l a c t i o n i f t h e y d o n ’ t
p r o v i d e , a s I s a id t h a t w h e n w e r e q u e s t i n fo r m a ti o n i n t e r m s o f
R e g u l a ti o n 1 9 a n y b o d y t o w h o m t h e r e q u e s t is d ir e c te d h a s t o p r o v i d e
t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n . S o t h e i n f o r m a ti o n t h e n c a m e a n d t h e n i n a n u ts h e l l i t
is a c t u a ll y i n p a r a g r a p h 8 2 a n d t h e n th e y p r o v i d e d a n e x p la n a t i o n a s to
t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h H o m ix a n d o th e r s i n a le t t e r d a te 1 2 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8
a c o p y o f w h ic h is a n n e x e d h e r e to t h a t I’ v e j u s t a l lu d e d t o .

20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Then 82.1 where it says, McKinsey

a n d C o m p a n y A fr ic a ( P t y ) L t d a p p o i n te d R e g i m e n t s a s a d e v e l o p m e n t
p a r t n e r a n d R e g i m e n ts i n t r o d u c ti o n t o M c K i n s e y w a s fa c i li t a t e d b y M r
M o o d l e y, r e m e m b e r M r M o o d le y is t h e s o l e d ir e c t o r o f A l b e r t y n a n d M r
S a li m E s s a w h o h a s b e e n m e n ti o n e d s e v e r a l t i m e s a n d 8 2 . 2 , in te r ms

Page 54 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
o f t h e a g r e e m e n t w i t h Mr M o o d l e y a n d E s s a t h e y o r t h e ir n o m in e e s
w o u ld b e e n ti t le d t o a b u s i n e s s d e v e l o p m e n t f e e f o r a l l r e v e n u e
r e c e i v e d b y R e g i m e n ts a s a r e s u l t o f i ts r e la ti o n s h i p w it h M c K i n s e y. S o
the fee agreed at the time was 35% broken down into 5% to Mr Moodley
a n d 3 0 % t o M r E s s a a n d t h is i n i ti a l p a r t o f 3 5 % w a s g o i n g t o g o t o
C h a v i ta Tr a d i n g , t h e c o m p a n y t h a t w a s j u s t i n tr o d u c e d e a r li e r it w a s
a l lu d e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h 8 2 . 3 w h e r e i t s a y s ,
“ T h e i n i ti a l e n ti ty n o mi n a te d b y Mr M o o d l e y a n d E s s a j o i n tl y ” ,
S o t h e y j o i n tly n o m i n a t e d C h e v i ta Tr a d in g t o r e c e i v e t h e e n t ir e
10

3 5 % w h ic h is a d e v e l o p m e n t fe e f o r Mc K i n s e y t o d o b u s i n e s s w i th
Regiments.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h a t is t h is d e v e lo p m e n t f e e , d i d y o u

understand what it meant?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o t h e w a y i t is d e s c r ib e d t h e y s a y

b e c a u s e o f t h e i n tr o d u c t i o n , r e m e m b e r M c K in s e y w a s in tr o d u c e d t o
R e g i m e n t s a n d t h e y w o r k e d t o g e t h e r a n d t h e n R e g i m e n ts d o i n g s o m e
w o r k fo r M c K i n s e y a n d s o m e r e v e n u e a n d o u t o f t h e r e v e n u e t h a t
R e g i m e n t s w a s e a r n i n g 3 5 % o f t h a t …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

Fr o m Tr a n s n e t ?

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o it w a s fr o m M c K i n s e y.

Fr o m M c K i n s e y ?

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s s o t h e r e v e n u e t h a t w a s b e i n g

e a r n e d b y R e g i m e n ts 3 5 % o f t h a t – s o t h e y c a l l i t , I ’v e n e v e r h e a r d
a b o u t t h a t d e v e l o p m e n t f e e , i t ’s w h a t I’ m r e a d in g f o r a f ir s t ti m e .

So

t h e y w e r e r e c e iv i n g 3 5 % o f w h i c h , j o i n tl y th e y a g r e e d b e in g t h a t it

Page 55 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
s h o u l d b e p a i d fir s t t o C h e v i t a b e i n g Mr M o o d le y a n d S a li m E s s a a n d –
b u t a c t u a ll y t h i n g s c h a n g e d a b i t y o u ’l l s e e a s I g o d o w n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s p r o c e e d .

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s a n d a t a ll r e l e v a n t ti m e s t h e

d ir e c t o r s o r R e g i m e n t s w a s M r N y h o n y h a … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

Yo u ’r e n o w r e a d in g p a r a g r a p h 8 2 . 4 o n

p a g e 2 8 C h a ir.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
Wood.
10

Ye s a n d M r N iv a n P il la y a n d D r E r ic

D r W o o d la t e r t h a t is p a r a g r a p h 8 2 . 5 , D r W o o d l a te r i n fo r m e d

h is c o - d ir e c to r s th a t M r P i ll a y a n d M r N y h o n y h a th a t th e a b o v e
m e n ti o n e d b u s i n e s s d e v e l o p m e n t fe e h a s n o w b e e n i n c r e a s e d t o 5 0 %
a n d th e n Mr N y h o n y h a … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Fr o m 3 5 % t o 5 0 % ?

M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h a t w o u l d b e a n i n c r e a s e o f a b o u t h o w m u c h , I’ m

n o t g o o d w i th b u t i t c e r ta in ly w o u ld s e e m t o b e a b o v e 3 0 % i n c r e a s e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

More or less.

A c tu a l ly i t m ig h t b e m u c h m o r e t h a n th a t , t h o s e t h a t

a r e g o o d w i t h a r i t h m e tic … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Sorry?

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

4 0 % M r C h a ir.

40%.

O k a t l e a s t 3 0 % w a s n ’ t s o b a d I th o u g h t o v e r 5 0 %

yes.

Page 56 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S H I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

It seems where that increase or

d u r i n g t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s w h e r e t h e i n c r e a s e t o o k p l a c e i t w a s o n ly D r
W o o d t h a t w a s t h e r e t h e tw o o t h e r d ir e c t o r s o f R e g i m e n ts , Mr N y h o n y a
a n d Mr P ill a y w e r e n o t t h e r e s o i t s e e m s t h e y w e r e n o t u n h a p p y a n d a s
y o u a s k e d m e a s t o w h a t i s t h e d e v e l o p m e n t f e e , s o t h e y f o u n d i t to b e
u n s u s ta in a b l e – b e c a u s e n o w w h i c h m e a n s w h a te v e r b u s i n e s s t h a t
Regiments does for McKinsey and the revenue comes, 50% of it – all
o f i t c o m e s to M r Es s a a n d M r M o o d l e y.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

S o – a n d M r Pi ll a y a n d Mr N y h o n y a f o u n d t h is

o b j e c ti o n a b l e ?
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s t h a t ’s w h y if I m a y ju s t r e a d

p a r a g r a p h 8 2 . 5 it s a y s , D r W o o d la t e r i n f o r m e d h is c o - d i r e c to r s b e in g
Mr

Nyhonya

and

Mr

P i ll a y

that

the

above

m e n ti o n e d

b u s in e s s

d e v e l o p m e n t fe e h a s b e e n i n c r e a s e d fr o m 3 5 t o 5 0 % a n d t h e n M r
N y h o n y a a n d M r P il la y w e r e n o t p a r ty t o t h e s e n e g o t i a t i o n s a n d
c o n s i d e r e d th e r e v i s e d f e e t o b e u n a c c e p t a b l e a n d u n s u s t a i n a b l e , s o i t
w a s ju s t to o m u c h . S o – b u t i t s e e m s i n t h e i n i t ia l f e e o f 3 5 % t h e y h a d
agreed and then paragraph 82.6, during March 2016 Dr Wood left
R e g i m e n t s a n d j o in e d Tr il li a n C a p i ta l P a r t n e r s a n d w a s r e m o v e d a s a
20

d ir e c t o r o f R e g i m e n ts d u r i n g O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w w h a t d o y o u m a k e o f th is

e x p l a n a t io n , y o u k n o w, h a v i n g i n m i n d t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u h a v e
( in d is ti n c t) b e fo r e th is C o m m i s s i o n a b o u t t h e fl o w o f fu n d s a n d h o w t h e
f u n d s w o u l d s i m p ly l e a v e t h e a c c o u n ts o f H o m i x a n d o t h e r s t o o t h e r
b e n e fic i a r i e s , d o e s t h i s m a k e a n y s e n s e t o y o u ?

Page 57 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

I t d o e s n ’ t m a k e s e n s e , I ’v e n e v e r

h e a r d i n t h e p a s t a b o u t a d e v e l o p m e n t f e e b u t i t a ls o s h o w s th a t I d o n ’ t
k n o w w h a t a c tu a lly p e r c e n t a g e o f p r o fi t t h a t R e g i m e n ts w a s m a k i n g t o
g iv e a w a y 5 0 % o f – i f y o u ’ r e g o i n g to g i v e a w a y 5 0 % o f y o u r p r o f i t o r
y o u r r e v e n u e i t ’s n o t p r o f it h e r e i t ’s r e v e n u e y o u s ti ll n e e d t o p a y f o r,
m a y b e s a l a r ie s a n d o t h e r th in g s a n d r e n ta l a n d a l l t h a t, s o I d o n ’t k n o w
h o w t h e y w o u l d h a v e s u r v i v e d , y o u k n o w b y 5 0 % h e n c e I th in k e v e n
they themselves, I don’t

t h i n k th e y w e r e h a p p y t o e n te r i n t o t h i s

tr a n s a c ti o n , h e n c e w h e n i t w a s i n c r e a s e d t o 5 0 % t h a t ’s w h y t w o o f t h e
10

d ir e c t o r s f e lt t h a t, n o w i t is t o o h i g h . S o o n e w i ll t a k e t h a t e v e n a t th e
in it i a l b e g in n in g t h e r e w e r e s o m e s o r t o f a r r a n g e m e n t t h a t th e y w e r e
n o t h a p p y w i t h b u t t h e y e n t e r e d i n to t h a t ju s t fo r t h e b e n e fi t b e c a u s e
t h e w h o l e b e n e f it h e r e is b e c a u s e o f th e in tr o d u c t i o n o f R e g i m e n ts t o
M c K in s e y a n d t h e n s o m e b o d y h a d t o p a y f o r t h a t t o s a y, y o u k n o w, t o
p a y s o m e – w h e t h e r i t’s a k ic k - b a c k o f s o m e s o r t fo r s o m e t i m e , I ’ m n o t
s o s u r e b u t s o m e b o d y f o r t h a t in tr o d u c ti o n lik e i t is a ll u d e d t o , I t h i n k in
t h e – j a o n p a r a g r a p h 8 2 .2 it s a y s , i n t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t , Mr
M o o d l e y a n d E s s a , th e y o r t h e ir n o m in e e s w i ll b e e n ti t le d t o a b u s in e s s
d e v e l o p m e n t f e e f o r a ll r e v e n u e r e c e iv e d b y R e g i m e n ts a s a r e s u l t o f

20

it ’s r e l a t i o n s h i p – j u s t t h a t r e l a t i o n s h ip , f a c il i ta t io n o f a r e l a ti o n s h i p y o u
g e t 3 5 % t h a t g e t s p a i d o u t o f t h e c o m p a n y a n d th e n b e f o r e y o u c o u l d
d o – p a y o th e r th i n g s a s w e ll .

S o i t ’s q u it e s u r p r i s i n g I ’ m n o t a u fa i t

w i t h th is ( in d is ti n c t) in r e s p e c t o f b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p I’ v e n e v e r h e a r d
a b o u t i t , y o u k n o w in o u r d e p a r t m e n t w e d e a l w i th a n u m b e r o f
tr a n s a c ti o n s , i n t e r n a ti o n a l , m e a s u r e s a n d a c q u is i ti o n s a n d a ll t h a t I ’v e

Page 58 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
n e v e r s e e n a f e e o f t h is n a t u r e c o m i n g o u t. Th e r e a r e fe e s w h e n y o u
a c t u a ll y d o in g s o m e o f t h e s e tr a n s a c ti o n s t h a t a r e t h e r e b u t it ’s – t h e r e
a r e k n o w n f e e s in t h e m a r k e t t h a t a r e – b u t th is o n e , a s I s a i d
C h a ir p e r s o n I ’v e n e v e r h e a r d a b o u t a n d t h a t – a s y o u s a y t h e n i t g e t s
in c r e a s e d a f t e r s o m e , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t p e r i o d f r o m 3 5 % t o 5 0 % a n d
t h e n t w o o f t h e d ir e c t o r s t h e y a r e n o t h a p p y a n d t h e y p u l l o u t a n d
e v e n t u a l ly o n e o f th e d ir e c t o r s is – g o e s o u t o f t h e c o m p a n y, le a v e s
R e g i m e n t s a n d h e g o e s a n d jo i n s a t Tr i ll i a n b e c a u s e a ls o Tr ill i a n h a s
b e e n th e s u b j e c t m a t te r o f a n u m b e r o f r e p r e s e n t a ti o n a t t h i s
10

Commission.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

And all this monies we know they

o r i g in a te fr o m t h e S O E ’s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S O E ’s y e s , t h e y o r ig i n a t e fr o m t h e

S O E ’s .
A D V P H I L LI P M O K O E N A S C :

Now on paragraph 83 on page 28 you

p r o v i d e s o m e o f t h e tr a n s a c ti o n s a n d s o m e o f t h e e x a m p l e s p e r ti n e n t t o
your

evidence

Mr

Mazibuko,

can

you

please

tell

the

C h a ir … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :
20

S o t h e r e ’s s o m e th i n g t h a t’s v e r y

in t e r e s ti n g h e r e , t h e m o v e m e n t o f m o n e y b e tw e e n t h e a c c o u n t o f H o m ix
a n d o t h e r p a r ti e s .

So

p a r a g r a p h 8 3 a l lu d e s t o – i t a p p e a r s th e r e ,

tr a n s a c ti o n u ti li s i n g H o m ix S t a n d a r d B a n k c h e q u e a c c o u n t th a t o n
s e v e r a l o c c a s i o n s s p e c i fi c a m o u n ts w e r e c r e d i t e d t o i t w h ic h w e h a v e
s e e n o n p a g e 2 4 a n d t h e n th e r e a f t e r t h e e x a c t a m o u n t l e s s 1 % w o u l d
b e tr a n s f e r r e d e ls e w e h e r e f o r e x a m p le , s o w e a r e j u s t p r o v i d in g

Page 59 of 223

an

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
example here,

p a r a g r a p h 8 3 .1 o n

27 June 2014, an amount of

1 8 2 4 0 0 0 . 0 0 w a s c r e d i te d to H o m ix a c c o u n t a n d o n 3 0 t h J u n e j u s t t h r e e
d a y s a f te r a n a m o u n t o f 1 8 0 5 9 4 0 . 5 8 w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o B a p u Tr a d i n g .
S o t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n 1 8 2 4 m il li o n a n d 1 8 0 5 m i ll i o n i t ’s a b o u t
1 8 3 8 6 w h ic h i s a b o u t 1 % s o y o u ’ ll b e s u r p r is e d e v e n t h e n w h y 1 % , y o u
k n o w is b e i n g tr a n s f e r r e d e l s e w h e r e . S o t h a t ’s w h y I s a id w i th m o n e y
la u n d e r in g t h e la y e r i n g , y o u k n o w, p l a y s a v i ta l r o l e to h id i n g t h e
p r o c e e d s o f c r i m e b e c a u s e w h e n y o u la y e r i t y o u p u t i t i n to v a r i o u s
a c c o u n t s t h e w h o le p u r p o s e th e r e is to h id e t h e o r ig i n o f m o n e y a n d
10

m a k e i t d i ff ic u l t f o r t h e o ff ic i a ls o r t h e a u t h o r i ti e s t o t r a c e . S o a ll t h is
s m a ll m o n e y s o m e b o d y g e ts a s h a r e o f 3 0 a n d 5 % , 1 % y o u ’ ll s e e i n t h e
n e x t p a g e s o m e b o d y a ls o g e ts a s h a r e o f 1 0 % .

S o it s e e m s w h e n

a l le g a ti o n s o f k i c k - b a c k s fr o m m o n i e s r e c e iv e d f r o m S O E ’s q u i te a
n u m b e r o f p e o p l e w e r e b e n e f i ti n g o u t o f th i s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u p r o c e e d t o g iv e t h e e x a m p l e o n

p a r a g r a p h … ( in t e r v e n t i o n ) .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

O n p a r a g r a p h ( i n d is ti n c t) o n 1 J u ly

2 0 1 4 a n d a m o u n t o f 1 4 5 9 0 0 0 .0 0 w a s c r e d i te d to H o m i x a c c o u n t a n d
o n 7 J u ly a n a m o u n t o f 1 4 4 4 7 5 2 . 4 8 w a s tr a n s fe r r e d f r o m t h i s a c c o u n t
20

t o B a p u , s o t h e r e ’s s o m e t h i n g th a t is le f t fo r H o m ix a n d y o u s a w th a t
B a p u a ls o p a y s t o o t h e r s w h a t s o e v e r b u t t h is o n e o n 1 J u ly 2 0 1 4 t h e
a m o u n t o f 1 4 4 4 t h e d i ff e r e n c e t h e r e w a s a b o u t 1 4 5 9 2 . 0 0 t h a t w a s l e f t
in t h e a c c o u n t o f H o m ix a f te r i t w a s tr a n s f e r r e d t o B a p u Tr a d i n g .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Page 60 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Page 84 – page 29 paragraph 84

t h e r e ’s a n o t h e r a m o u n t o f m o n e y, R e g i m e n ts is in v o lv e d i n s e v e r a l
in s t a n c e s

when

R e g i m e n ts

tr a n s fe r r e d

funds

to

H o m ix

it

a ls o

tr a n s fe r r e d a n a m o u n t e q u a l t o 1 0 % o f s u c h tr a n s f e r s to A l b e r ty n , f o r
e x a m p l e o n 1 4 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 – r e m e m b e r t h a t A l b e r t y n is a lr e a d y,
C h a ir p e r s o n g a i n i n g o u t o f t h e 3 5 % w h ic h w a s in c r e a s e d t o 5 0 % I ’ m n o t
s o s u r e n o w h e r e th e r e ’s a n o t h e r a m o u n t g o in g t o A l b e r ty n t o s a y in
s e v e r a l i n s t a n c e s w h e n R e g i m e n ts tr a n s f e r r e d fu n d s t o H o m ix i t a ls o
tr a n s fe r r e d a n a m o u n t e q u a l t o 1 0 % b e c a u s e n o w it ’s n o m o r e tw o
10

p e o p l e i n v o lv e d , r e m e m b e r t h e d ir e c t o r o f A lb e r ty n is Mr K u b a t h r a n
M o o d l e y a n d h e r e h i s c o m p a n y is g e tt i n g 1 0 % h a v in g o n t h e o t h e r s i d e
b e n e fi t ti n g fr o m t h e 5 0 % t h a t w a s r a is e d f r o m 2 5 % , s o p a r a g r a p h 8 4 . 1
o n 1 4 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 4 a n a m o u n t o f R 1 3 7 8 6 8 7 4 . 9 4 w a s tr a n s f e r r e d
fr o m R e g i m e n ts fr o m H o m ix a f te r w h ic h o n 1 8 N o v e m b e r 1 0 % w h i c h is
R 1 3 7 8 6 8 7 ,5 0 w a s tr a n s fe r r e d fr o m R e g i m e n ts t o Al b e r ty n . P a r a g r a p h
8 4 . 2 o n 5 F e b r u a r y 2 0 1 5 a n a m o u n t o f R 5 9 6 6 5 8 8 , 4 3 w a s tr a n s fe r r e d
fr o m R e g i m e n ts t o H o m ix a n d o n th e s a m e d a y R 5 9 6 6 5 8 , 8 4 w h ic h is
1 0 % w a s tr a n s f e r r e d f r o m R e g i m e n ts t o A l b e r t y n .
Paragraph 84.3 on 12 February 2015 an amount of R2 667

20

3 0 1 , 5 6 w a s tr a n s f e r r e d f r o m R e g i m e n t s t o H o m ix a f t e r w h ic h o n 1 8
February

1 0 % , R 2 7 6 7 3 0 , 1 6 w a s tr a n s f e r r e d fr o m R e g i m e n ts t o

Albertyn.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Do we have any sense as to what

h a p p e n s to th o s e a m o u n ts o n c e t h e y l a n d in t o t h e a c c o u n t o f A l b e r t y n , .

Page 61 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
D o t h e y r e m a i n i n t h a t a c c o u n t o r d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r a r e t h e y b e i n g
tr a n s fe r r e d fu r t h e r.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

S o w e d id n ’ t a s s e s s t h a t b u t y o u w il l

r e c a l l t h a t i n o n e o f th e p a r a g r a p h s t h e m o n e y t h a t fl e w fr o m A l b e r ty n
t o H o m ix i t w a s a ll u d e d to t h a t it c a m e fr o m A B S A B a n k , s o o n e m i g h t
h a v e to g o i n t o t h a t A B S A B a n k t o s a y, to c h e c k fr o m t h a t A B S A B a n k
w h e r e t h e fu n d s w e r e c o m in g i n to s a y d i d t h o s e f u n d s s t a y i n t h is 1 0 %
s t a y i n t h e r e o r th e y w e r e tr a n s f e r r e d f u r th e r.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

Ye s .

Now you conclude your evidence

with paragraph 85.
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s .

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O n p a g e 3 0 w h ic h m a y I r e q u e s t y o u t h a t
p l e a s e r e a d i t, i t i s q u i te i m p o r t a n t a n d y o u c a n th e n a ft e r e x p la in
w h a t e v e r y o u w a n t t o e x p la i n a r is in g fr o m t h a t p a r a g r a p h .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

Ye s s o i n m y c o n c l u s i o n p a r a g r a p h

8 5 i n l ig h t o f t h e a b o v e , a ll t h e e v i d e n c e I h a v e p r o v i d e d i t is c l e a r t h a t
t h e r e ’s o n g o in g n e e d to e n s u r e th a t th e S o u th A f r ic a n R e s e r v e B a n k
s p e c i f ic a l ly th e fi n a n c i a l s u r v e il l a n c e d e p a r t m e n t i n th is c o n t e x t a n d it s
r e l a t e d a g e n c ie s , t h e S A R S a n d F I C , o t h e r l a w e n fo r c e m e n t a g e n c i e s
20

t h e r e w e a r e r e f e r r i n g to th e N PA , t h e P o l ic e , a n d t h e p r i m a r y n e t w o r k
o f a u th o r is e d d e a l e r s , a s I s a id t h a t t h e y a r e t h e f ir s t l i n e o f d e fe n c e
b e c a u s e in a n y m o n e y l a u n d e r i n g tr a n s a c ti o n s w h e r e y o u s ta r t b y
a c t u a ll y p l a c in g t h e m o n e y, th a t is th e s ta r t , th a t is v e r y c r u c ia l
b e c a u s e i f y o u c a n ’ t p la c e i t i t b e c o m e s a p r o b le m f o r y o u b e c a u s e y o u
w i ll b e c a r r y i n g t h a t b a g o f c a s h a r o u n d , s o t h a t w e w o r k to g e th e r a n d

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
o u r r e l a t i o n s h i p , a r e ( in d i s ti n c t) s tr e n g t h e n e d , l ik e th e C h a ir p e r s o n w a s
a l lu d in g t o th e fa c t t h a t i t s e e ms t h a t w e a r e n o t w o r k in g to g e t h e r a n d
t h e r e is n o a c ti o n b e i n g t a k e n , s o – a n d I a p p r e c i a te w h a t y o u s a i d
C h a ir p e r s o n th a t fo r t h e P a r li a m e n t a r y C o m m i t t e e s t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g
t o h e l p u s , t o m e i t is s o m e h e l p t h a t s o m e w o r k n e e d s t o h a p p e n i n
t e r m s o f u s , f o r t h e s e c a s e s t o g o f o r w a r d , b e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t h e lp
t h a t w e h a v e 6 4 c a s e s r e p o r t e d a n d n o t h in g h a s h a p p e n e d u p t o t h i s
s t a g e , b u t I t h i n k i n a n u m b e r o f c a s e s t h a t I t h i n k p e o p l e a r e lo o k in g
f o r s o m e a c t i o n . Yo u k n o w e v e n s i tt i n g o u r s e lv e s h e r e r e g u r g it a ti n g a l l
10

t h e s e is s u e s y o u k n o w t h a t p e o p l e m i g h t h a v e b r o k e n t h e la w, a t t h e
e n d o f t h e d a y p e o p le a r e l o o k i n g fo r s o m e a c ti o n , s o w e h o p e t h a t y o u
k n o w b y w o r k i n g w i th o t h e r a g e n c i e s a s I s a i d t h a t w h e n w e w o r k ,
where we work we work as a team of law enforcement agencies where
w e p a s s t h e s t ic k , i t ’s li k e i n a r e l a y w h e r e p e o p l e a r e r u n n i n g t h a t
s o m e b o d y h a s t o t a k e th a t s ti c k to t h e f in is h , y o u d r o p i t , w e ’r e n o t
g o i n g t o b e a b le t o f i n is h th e r a c e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir t h a t c o n c l u d e s o u r q u e s ti o n i n g to
Mr Mazibuko.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I f w e m a y a d j o u r n fo r f iv e m i n u t e in

o r d e r t o a ll o w a n e w w it n e s s t o t a k e t h e s t a n d a n d t o p r o c e e d w i th M s
M o s i d i ’s e v id e n c e .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g t o g i v e y o u r

e v i d e n c e M r M a z i b u k o y o u w il l c o n t i n u e l ia is i n g w i th t h e le g a l t e a m w i th
regard to the other homework that needs to be done, so that we can get
t o t h e b o t to m o f th e s e t h i n g s . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , y o u a r e e x c u s e d .
M R S I H WA E L I J A H M A Z I B U K O :

T h a n k s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . W e w il l a d j o u r n f o r fi v e m i n u t e s
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s S e p te m b e r a r e y o u r e a d y ?
10

A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s I a m C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Good morning.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s g o o d m o r n i n g .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir t h e w i tn e s s w h o s e e v i d e n c e I

w i ll l e a d t o d a y is a f o r m e r e m p lo y e e o f Tr a n s n e t . S h e i n fa c t r e s i g n e d
fr o m Tr a n s n e t o n t h e 3 0 S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 8 a n d d u r i n g h e r s ta y a t
Tr a n s n e t s h e h e l d th e p o s it i o n o f G r o u p C h i e f I n f o r m a t io n O ff ic e r.
C h a ir I n e e d t o a l e r t y o u t h a t th e e v i d e n c e – h e r e v id e n c e t o d a y is n o t
a l l o r i g i n a l e v i d e n c e . In f a c t th e r e a r e p r e v io u s w it n e s s e s …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B y w h ic h y o u m e a n i t i s n o t a l l n e w e v i d e n c e ?
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e r e a r e in fa c t w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e
t e s ti fi e d b e f o r e t h is c o m m is s i o n w h o h a v e g i v e n e v i d e n c e in r e l a t i o n t o
t h e tr a n s a c t i o n th a t t h is w i tn e s s w i ll te s t if y t o .

Page 64 of 223

The nature of her

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
evidence

is

thus

s u p p o r t in g ,

c o r r o b o r a ti v e ,

perhaps

even

c o m p li m e n t a r y b u t i t i s c e r ta in ly n e c e s s a r y t o fi ll t h e g a p s a n d t o
p r e s e n t th e c o n te x t o f t h e p r e v i o u s e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s b e e n g iv e n .

In

s o d o i n g i t t h e r e f o r e b u il d s o n t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r P e t e r Vo l m i n k a n d
t h e h i g h le v e l o v e r v i e w t h a t w a s p r e s e n t e d b y M r P o p o M o l e fe . I t a ls o
s o m e w h a t to u c h e s o n e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s g iv e n b y Mr Va n D e r
W e s t h u i z e n i n c o n t e x t o f t h e h i s to r y o f t h i s tr a n s a c ti o n .

So the

e v i d e n c e is c e r t a in ly n e c e s s a r y t o p i e c e t o g e th e r t h e o t h e r p i e c e s o f
e v i d e n c e t o c o n t e x t u a li s e w i t h i n th e b i g g e r s c h e m e o f t h i n g s a n d
10

e n a b l e y o u C h a ir to c o n s i d e r t h e t o ta li ty o f e v i d e n c e . To j u s t h i g h l ig h t
w h a t is r e a ll y n e w to h e r e v id e n c e a s a s u m m a r y.

It i s e v id e n c e t h a t

s p e c i f ic a l ly f a l ls w i th i n h e r p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e a n d e x p e r ie n c e a t
Tr a n s n e t .

S p e c i fi c a ll y h e r e x p e r i e n c e o f s p e c i f ic i n d iv i d u a ls w i t h i n

Tr a n s n e t w h o w e r e in v o lv e d in t h e a w a r d o f t h e I T d a t a s e r v i c e s t e n d e r
t o T- S y s te m s d u r i n g F e b r u a r y o f 2 0 1 7 . A n o th e r a s p e c t o f h e r e v id e n c e
t o h ig h l i g h t w h ic h i s s o m e w h a t n e w i s h e r i n v o lv e m e n t a s th e i n c u m b e n t
o f t h e p o s i ti o n o f G r o u p C h i e f I n f o r m a ti o n O ffi c e r w h ic h w a s t h e
b u s i n e s s o w n e r o f th is p a r t ic u l a r tr a n s a c ti o n .

I n t h is r e g a r d h e r

e v i d e n c e t h e n c e r ta i n ly d o e s t a lk to t h e th e m e t h a t h a s b e e n p r e s e n t e d
20

b y M r P o p o M o l e fe a n d e v e n M r M o h a m m e d M o h a m e d y a n d t h a t is
about

th e

p o s s ib le

e x is t e n c e

of

a

p a r a ll e l

system

w i th in

the

o r g a n i s a t io n w h ic h e n a b l e d in d i v i d u a ls t o b e n e f it th r o u g h c e r t a i n
tr a n s a c ti o n s .

S o ju s t a s m u c h a s w e a r e a w a r e t h a t t h e T- S y s te m s

tr a n s a c ti o n w a s s e t a s i d e o n th e 1 2 t h D e c e m b e r l a s t y e a r b y th e
J o h a n n e s b u r g h ig h c o u r t th e p r o c e s s i s j u s t a s i m p o r ta n t a s th e

Page 65 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
o u t c o m e a n d w i th y o u r le a v e m a y I r e q u e s t t h e n th a t t h i s w i t n e s s b e
sworn in?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : My n a m e is M a k n o M u r i e l A n n a
Mosidi.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u h a v e a n y o b je c ti o n s t o t a k in g t h e p r e s c r i b e d

oath?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o n e a t a l l.
10

REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s o l e m n ly s w e a r th a t a l l t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e
w i ll b e t h e tr u t h , t h e w h o l e tr u t h a n d n o t h in g b u t t h e tr u th i f s o p l e a s e
r a i s e y o u r r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o h e l p m e G o d .
REGISTRAR: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir b e f o r e y o u a r e t w o b u n d l e s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h e f ir s t b u n d le is m a r k e d E x h ib i t

B B 11 a n d t h a t is t h e b u n d l e th a t i s s p e c if ic t o th e s t a te m e n t o f th is
witness and her annexures.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a t i s t h e – t h a t is th e l e v e r a r c h fi l e t h a t

c o n ta in s Ms M o s i d i ’s s t a t e m e n t a n d it w ill b e m a r k e d E x h i b i t B B 11 .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

In a d d i ti o n C h a ir w e w il l b e r e f e r r i n g

t o a n e x c e r p t o u t o f t h e b u n d le s o f P e te r Vo l m i n k s o b e f o r e y o u y o u
m a y h a v e t h e Ex h ib i t B B 2 . 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I d o .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Annexure PV8.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y. M s M o s i d i c a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n
t o p a g e 1 o f th e – o f B B 11 p l e a s e ? D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h i s d o c u m e n t?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s I d o .
10

ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:
that same bundle?

Can I ask you to turn to page 20 of

W h o s e s i g n a t u r e a p p e a r s a t t h e b o t to m o f th is

page?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

T h e s i g n a t u r e a t t h e b o tt o m is

mine.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o p l e a s e i d e n t if y w h a t d o c u m e n t th is
is ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Th is is my s t a t e m e n t w i t h

r e g a r d s t o th e te s t i m o n y t h a t I a m g o i n g to g iv e to d a y h e r e .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER:
20

Thank you.

Do you have any

c o r r e c t io n s t o y o u r s t a t e m e n t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s M a ’a m I d o .
CHAIRPERSON:

M s M o s i d i y o u m i g h t w i s h t o j u s t r a is e y o u r v o i c e a

li t tl e b i t m o r e o r b r i n g th e m ic r o p h o n e c l o s e r.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O k a y C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Page 67 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:
please?

C a n I a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 4

P a r a g r a p h 9 a n d 1 0 r e f e r s to s t e p 9 , is t h e r e a c o r r e c ti o n t o

that number?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir y e s I w o u l d lik e t o m a k e a
c o r r e c t io n to t h e n u m b e r 9 t o 7 .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Thank you.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I n b o th in s t a n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y d id y o u s a y p a g e 4 ?
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a g e 4 C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: What paragraph?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Paragraph.
CHAIRPERSON: Or in the column at the top or what?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: So paragraph 9 and 10.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Refers to…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER: Step 9.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S t e p 9 o k a y.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h ic h o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n s t e p 7 .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I th e n a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y t h a t s h o u l d h a v e b e e n s te p ?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER: Step 7.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : C h a ir i n s t e a d o f s t e p 9 i t s h o u ld
read step 7.

Page 68 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON: Step 7.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I n b o th in s t a n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . Ye s .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

Can I then ask you to turn to page 6

p l e a s e ? D u r in g o u r p r e p a r a t io n y o u i n f o r m e d t h a t y o u w o u l d l ik e to a d d
t w o a d d i ti o n a l p o i n ts u n d e r th e s u b p a r a g r a p h 1 3 .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:
10

Ye s C h a ir I w o u l d l ik e t o a d d

1 3 . 5 w h i c h w il l t a lk to r e l a t i o n s h i p m a n a g e m e n t a n d 1 3 . 6 w h i c h w il l b e
s e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t in t h e s u p p l e m e n t a r y s t a te m e n t o r a ff i d a v i t ?
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I w a s ju s t i n f o r m e d th a t – o f t h a t th is
m o r n in g s o i t w il l c e r t a i n ly b e a t t e n d e d t o .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay that can be arranged then.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: For submission.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e n s h e g i v e s e v i d e n c e s h e c a n c o v e r th o s e p o i n ts
t h a t s h e w a n ts to p u t in b u t t h e n a s u p p l e m e n ta r y a ff i d a v i t m u s t b e
d o n e w h ic h w il l s a y e x a c t ly w h a t s h e s a y s s h e w o u ld lik e to a d d t o

20

paragraph 13.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER: As it …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o b v i o u s ly w e w il l d e a l w i t h th e o t h e r c o r r e c t io n s
r e l a ti n g t o s t e p 9 .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e r e is o n e la s t c o r r e c ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 69 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h a t i s a g a in o n t h e s a m e p a g e 6 .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is i t c o r r e c t M s M o s i d i th a t y o u w is h t o
delete paragraph 14.3?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : Ye s C h a ir I w o u l d lik e to d e l e t e
1 4 . 3 i t r e fe r s to a n o l d e r te n d e r n o t t h is o n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o w h a t y o u n e e d t o d o is t o a ls o i n t h e

s t a te m e n t w h e n y o u g iv e e v i d e n c e y o u c a n s a y w h a t y o u w a n t t o s a y in
r e g a r d to 1 4 . 3 a n d a s u p p l e m e n ta r y s ta t e m e n t o r a ffi d a v i t m u s t b e
10

m a d e w h i c h d e a ls w i t h t h a t.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A s i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k Yo u .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

A p a r t fr o m t h e c o r r e c t io n s t h a t y o u

h a v e i n d ic a t e d h e r e t o d a y is t h e r e m a in i n g p a r t o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t a ll
tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir i t is a l l tr u e a n d c o r r e c t to
t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e a n d r e c o l l e c ti o n .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER:

M s M o s i d i is i t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u w e r e

p e r m a n e n tly e m p l o y e d in th e p o s i ti o n o f G r o u p C h i e f In f o r m a t io n
20

O ff ic e r a t Tr a n s n e t S O C L i m it e d fr o m 1 J u n e 2 0 1 6 t o 3 0 S e p te m b e r
2 0 1 8 w h e n y o u r e s ig n e d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t is tr u e C h a ir.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s i t a ls o t r u e th a t th e e v id e n c e t h a t

y o u g iv e t o d a y s p e c i f ic a l ly d e a ls w i t h t h e in f o r m a t io n t e c h n o lo g y d a t e
s e r v ic e s t e n d e r th a t Tr a n s n e t a w a r d e d to T- S y s t e ms d u r i n g F e b r u a r y o f

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2017?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Is it tr u e C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir i n t h is r e g a r d th e r e h a s a lr e a d y
b e e n e v i d e n c e p la c e d b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n f o r t h e s o u r c e o f th is
p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r a n d s o th is t e n d e r is s p e c i f ic t o th e a r iv i a .c o m w h ic h
p r o v i d e d I C T s e r v ic e s t o b o t h Tr a n s n e t a n d E s k o m a n d w h ic h w a s th e n
s u b s e q u e n t ly s o ld t o T- S y s t e ms .

I n th is r e g a r d it is d i ff e r e n t t h o u g h

fr o m t h e n e t w o r k s e r v i c e s w h ic h Va n D e r W e s t h u i z e n h a d a lr e a d y g iv e n
e v i d e n c e t o . P a r a g r a p h 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t g i v e s a r o a d m a p t o a ll t h e
10

d i ff e r e n t a s p e c ts t h a t y o u in t e n d t o a d d r e s s t o d a y a n d s o b a s e d o n t h e
e v i d e n c e t h a t h a s a l r e a d y b e e n p r e s e n t e d b e fo r e th is c o m m i s s i o n w e
w i ll d e a l w i t h t h o s e p a r ts o f y o u r e v id e n c e w h ic h is s p e c i fi c t o y o u r
p e r s o n a l e x p e r i e n c e a n d k n o w le d g e a t Tr a n s n e t .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o t e d C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f w e c o u ld th e n lo o k a t p a g e 2 w h ic h
t a lk s to y o u r q u a li f ic a ti o n s a n d e m p l o y m e n t h is to r y.

P le a s e p r o v id e

d e t a i ls t o t h e C h a ir o f y o u r a c a d e m i c q u a l i fi c a t io n s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h a n k s C h a ir. I a m a q u a li fi e d
in f o r m a ti o n a n d t e c h n o l o g y p r a c t i ti o n e r a n d s p e c ia li s t a n d I s t u d i e d a t
20

t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f t h e N o r t h n o w r e f e r r e d t o a s U n i v e r s i ty o f L i m p o p o . I
g r a d u a te d a s a B . C o m D a t a Pr o c e s s i n g p e r s o n a n d a U n iv e r s i ty
E d u c a ti o n D i p l o m a b a c k in 1 9 8 7 . A n d C h a ir I h a v e b e e n w o r k i n g i n t h i s
s e c t o r f o r a t le a s t 3 0 y e a r s r i g h t fr o m t h e b e g in n i n g a s a c o m p u t e r
o p e r a t o r a n d a p r o g r a m m e r r ig h t t h r o u g h t o w h e r e I s ta r t e d p la y i n g
e x e c u tiv e r o l e s t h a t I h a v e b e e n p l a y i n g t o d a te . S o C h a ir m y c a r e e r i n

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
I T s t a r t e d a t I B M w h ic h b y th e n w a s r e f e r r e d t o a s I S M b e c a u s e o f t h e
s a n c ti o n s t h a t w e r e l e v i e d o n th e c o u n tr y a n d I s p e n t f o u r y e a r s o f m y
li fe w o r k in g a t I S M i n d o w n to w n J o h a n n e s b u r g s ta r t in g a s a b u s in e s s
a n a ly s t , a s y s t e m a n a ly s t a n d t h e n g o i n g d o w n t o b e in g a c o m p u t e r
o p e r a t o r b e c a u s e I w a s v e r y in q u i s i ti v e a n d c u r i o u s a b o u t th e b i g
c o m p u te r s t h a t e v e r y o n e w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t . A n d t h e n I w e n t a h e a d to
b e a d e v e l o p e r a n d a d a ta b a s e a d m i n i s tr a to r w i th in I B M . F o u r y e a r s
la t e r I t h e n j o i n e d w h a t i s n o w c a ll e d Ac s e n ti a b y t h e n i t w a s c a ll e d
A n d e r s o n C o n s u l ti n g a s a c o n s u l t a n t w h o w a s i m p le m e n t in g c o m p u te r
10

s y s te m s a n d d o i n g w h a t p e o p l e r e fe r t o a s c h a n g e m a n a g e m e n t
p r o c e s s e s w h e n i m p le m e n t in g a s y s te m . I jo in e d A n d e r s o n C o n s u l ti n g
in t h e i r P r e t o r i a o ff ic e a n d I w a s a c t u a l ly s e r v i c i n g t h e S o u t h A f r i c a n
P o lic e in i m p l e m e n t in g t h e ir p r o v is io n i n g a d m in is tr a ti o n s y s te m . I t h e n
jo in e d Er n e s t a n d Yo u n g a s a m a n a g e m e n t c o n s u l t a n t s e r v i c e h e a d
w h e r e t h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly b e g in n in g t o o p e r a t e i n t h e N o r t h W e s t
a d m i n is tr a t i o n .

Th e N o r th W e s t P r o v i n c e b a c k t h e n .

And my

r e s p o n s i b i li ti e s C h a ir w e r e t o a c t u a l ly m a n a g e a n d l e a d t h e t e c h n ic a l
o u t s o u r c e th a t E r n e s t a n d Yo u n g h a d f o r th e N o r t h W e s t P r o v in c i a l
A d m i n i s t r a t io n w h ic h w a s r e a l ly l o o k i n g a t c o m p u t e r is i n g t h e p r o v i n c e
20

a n d w a s a l s o r e s p o n s i b l e f o r t h e u p k e e p o f t h e t e c h n ic a l i n s t a l l e d b a s e
of the province back then so that would have been in 1995.

It was

w h e n I i n th e N o r th W e s t Pr o v in c e t h a t I w a s th e n r e c r u i t e d i n to t h e
P r o v i n c ia l A d m i n is tr a t i o n it s e l f t o b e t h e ir C h i e f I n f o r m a ti o n O ff ic e r
b a c k in 1 9 9 6 . S o I h a d t h e f o r tu n e o f p l a y in g t h a t r o l e a n d p r o b a b l y a s
a f ir s t a ft e r t h e n e w d i s p e n s a ti o n o f o u r g o v e r n m e n t a n d C h a ir I w o r k e d

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t h e r e a s C h i e f I n f o r m a t i o n O ffi c e r f o r a g o o d n u m b e r o f y e a r s , it c o u l d
b e f o u r y e a r s , y e s i t is f o u r y e a r s a n d w h e n I l e f t N o r t h W e s t I j o i n e d
S I TA a s t h e f ir s t C h i e f O p e r a ti n g O ff ic e r o f t h a t e n ti ty w h e n i t w a s
a c t u a ll y c o n c e p t u a li s e d a n d p u t i n t o o p e r a ti o n . W h e n I w a s th r e e y e a r s
in t o t h e S I TA r o le a s a C O O t h e r e w e r e s o m e is s u e s w i th t h e t h e n C h i e f
E x e c u t iv e o f t h e o r g a n is a ti o n a n d I s t a r te d a c t in g f o r o v e r a y e a r a s t h e
C E O o f S I TA w h ic h is S t a te I n fo r m a ti o n Te c h n o l o g y A g e n c y.

C h a ir I

p l a y e d a n u m b e r o f r o l e s i n t h a t – in th a t o r g a n is a ti o n fr o m b e i n g a n
a c ti n g C h ie f E x e c u tiv e t o b e in g a C O O , t o b e in g a h e a d o f w h a t w e
10

u s e d t o c a l l D e f e n c e I n f o r m a ti o n Te c h n o l o g y Sy s te m s u n t il I l e f t th e
o r g a n i s a t io n a ft e r f o u r y e a r s . A t w h ic h I jo in e d a n e m e r g i n g c o m p a n y
c a l l e d N e w D a w n Te c h n o l o g i e s a s a H e a d fo r C o n s u l ti n g a n d t h e
c o n s u l t in g w a s a ls o in I T. S o i t w a s a n u p c o m in g c o m p a n y w h ic h w a s
r e a l ly p r o m is i n g e s p e c i a l ly f o r t h e t i m e a n d C h a ir I th e n le f t a n d j o i n e d
E D S b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o b u y s o m e I T c o m p a n y w h ic h
w a s a S A P f i t.

S A P is a n o th e r s o ft w a r e h o u s e , i t is a n o t h e r s o f t w a r e

p a c k a g e t h a t g e t s u s e d i n c r i tic a l o r g a n i s a ti o n s a n d c o m p a n i e s .

So

C h a ir a f t e r E D S w e t h e n m a d e a m a n a g e m e n t b u y o u t i n t o w h a t w e c a l l
R D C a n d I w a s t h e m a n a g i n g p a r t n e r a n d i t w a s a p u r e te c h n o l o g y
20

d r i v e n c o m p a n y w h ic h w a s f o c u s s i n g o n [ in d is ti n c t ] s e r v i c e s r i g h t
t h r o u g h th e t e c h n o lo g y s ta c k fr o m p e r h a p s j u s t a d m i n is tr a ti n g t h e ir
d a t a b a s e s a n d m a k i n g s u r e th a t y o u c a n a c t u a lly p r o v i d e s e r v i c e s
a r o u n d t h a t te c h n ic a l s ta c k .

It was when I was in RDC that I joined

D i m e n s i o n D a ta a s a C I O f o r M id d le E a s t e r n A fr i c a b u t a ls o a s t h e
H e a d o f P u b l ic S e c t o r.

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c o u ld j u s t i n te r r u p t y o u t h e r e .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h e n y o u w e r e a t D i m e n s i o n D a t a d id
y o u h a v e a n y e n g a g e m e n t w i t h Tr a n s n e t?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : S o C h a ir y e s b e c a u s e a s a H e a d
o f P u b l ic S e c t o r my p r i m a l r o l e w a s to s e l l .

So when you sell you

a c t u a ll y e n g a g e w i th a w h o l e l o t o f o r g a n is a ti o n s .
and

see

how

you

can

p o t e n t ia ll y

s e ll

your

Yo u g o a n d m e e t
services

to

those

o r g a n i s a t io n s a n d Tr a n s n e t w a s o n e o f t h e m b e c a u s e i t fe ll u n d e r th e
10

a m b i t o f p u b li c s e c to r. A n d a s a n e x e c u t o r fo r p u b li c s e c to r I e n g a g e d
w i t h th e C I O o r t h e G r o u p C I O th e n o f Tr a n s n e t in m y r o l e a s t h e H e a d
o f P u b lic S e c ti o n w i t h i n D i m e n s i o n D a t a .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Thank you.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d I s t a y e d i n D i m e n s io n D a t a
f o r s e v e n y e a r s a n d w h e n I j o in e d Tr a n s n e t I j o i n e d Tr a n s n e t c o m in g
fr o m D i m e n s i o n

Data

and

I j o i n e d Tr a n s n e t a s

I n f o r m a t io n O ffi c e r i n J u n e 2 0 1 6 .

a

Group

Chief

A n d I s ta y e d w i t h Tr a n s n e t u n t il

O c t o b e r 2 0 1 8 – u n ti l S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 8 w h e n I le f t th e o r g a n i s a t io n .
ADV
20

VERUSHKA

SEPTEMBER:

Thank

you.

Apart

fr o m

your

e n g a g e m e n t w h e n y o u w e r e a t D i m e n s io n D a t a w h e n y o u j o i n e d
Tr a n s n e t th a t – is i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h a t w a s t h e n y o u r v e r y f ir s t
e m p l o y m e n t w i t h Tr a n s n e t S O C L i m it e d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s C h a i r s o w h e n I j o i n e d

Tr a n s n e t i n J u n e 2 0 1 6 i t w a s m y v e r y fi r s t e m p lo y m e n t jo u r n e y w i th
Tr a n s n e t I h a d n e v e r w o r k e d e it h e r a s a c o n s u l t a n t o r a s a c o n tr a c t o r

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f o r Tr a n s n e t i t w a s m y fir s t t o a c t u a l ly j o in t h e m a s a C I O .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER:

The experience that you have then

a c q u ir e d o v e r t h e s o m e w h a t 3 0 y e a r s s p e c i fic t o t h e I T s e c to r e x p o s e d
y o u t o d i ff e r e n t p r o c u r e m e n t tr a n s a c ti o n s a s w e ll ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a ir I h a d t h e fo r t u n e o f

p l a y in g a w h o l e lo t o f e x e c u t iv e r o l e s i n t h e s e o r g a n i s a t io n s a n d m o s t
o f th e ti m e I w o u ld e n g a g e w i t h p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s f o r s e r v i c e s
w h e t h e r I w a s i n s i d e a n o r g a n i s a t io n o r o u ts i d e li k e I s a i d m y r o l e f o r
e x a m p l e w h e n I w a s i n D i m e n s i o n D a t a w a s m o r e t o s e ll a n d w h e n y o u
10

sell of course you engage with procurement processes in any shape or
f o r m w h e t h e r I w a s s ti ll a s m a l l m e d i u m e n te r p r is e w h e n I w a s r u n n i n g
m y o w n o r w h e t h e r a s a n i n a r o le a s a G r o u p C I O f o r D i m e n s i o n D a ta .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o d a y is s p e c i fi c t o
t h e p r o c u r e m e n t o f I T d a ta s e r v i c e s w it h in Tr a n s n e t?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir. S o t o d a y in te r ms o f
m y s t a te m e n t i t i s fo r th e d a ta s e r v i c e s c o n tr a c t th a t w a s a c t u a ll y u n d e r
t h e s e r v ic e o f T- Sy s t e m s b a c k t h e n .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h e r e a r e y o u c u r r e n tl y e m p lo y e d a n d
in w h a t p o s i ti o n ?

20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o I a m c u r r e n t ly th e G r o u p C I O
f o r C o r p o r a te a n d I n v e s t m e n t B a n k i n g in S t a n d a r d B a n k b a s e d i n
R o s e b a n k . I jo in e d t h e m w h e n I l e ft Tr a n s n e t in S e p te m b e r l a s t y e a r.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you. We are now on page 3 of
y o u r s t a t e m e n t w h ic h t h e n t a l k s t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s b u t m o r e
p a r t ic u l a r ly t h e r o l e o f G r o u p C h i e f I n f o r m a t io n O ff ic e r w h ic h y o u h a d

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h e l d w it h in Tr a n s n e t a t th e ti m e . C h a i r I w o u l d li k e t o ju s t a l l u d e to t h e
f a c t t h a t P e te r Vo l m i n k d id p r o v i d e e v id e n c e a s a h i g h l e v e l o v e r v ie w o f
t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s t h a t w a s fo ll o w e d i n th is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r Vo l m i n k ?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o b u t w e w il l d e a l s p e c i fic a lly t o –

sorry?
C H A I R P E R S O N : M r Vo l m i n k ?
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : M r Vo l m i n k , M r P e t e r Vo l mi n k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s l e t u s – l e t u s tr e a t a l l p e o p le th e r i g h t w a y,
10

M r Vo l m i n k w e a r e i n f o r m a l p r o c e e d i n g s . O k a y.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER: Okay I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t d i d n o t r e g is t e r w h a t y o u s a id ?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

A p o l o g i e s I t h o u g h t I s a id M r P e t e r

Vo l m i n k o k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o M r P e te r Vo l m i n k h a d a lr e a d y

p r o v i d e d e v i d e n c e i n r e la t io n t o t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s t h a t w a s
f o ll o w e d b u t i n t h i s r e g a r d t h is w i tn e s s w i ll d e a l w i t h s p e c i f ic i ty o f h e r
in v o lv e m e n t . I f I c o u l d a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 4 ? In f a c t s o r r y c a n I
20

a s k y o u to t u r n to p a g e 3 o n e p a g e b e fo r e . W h o i n it i a t e d th e p r o c e s s
t o g o o u t o n te n d e r ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o C h a ir w h e n I j o i n e d Tr a n s n e t
t h is t e n d e r w a s a lr e a d y i n i t ia t e d b u t in t e r m s o f h o w t h e p r o c e s s w o r k s
t h e b u s in e s s o w n e r w il l a c t u a ll y i n i t ia t e a t e n d e r p r o c e s s b a s e d o n th e
b u s i n e s s r e q u ir e m e n t s t h a t t h e b u s i n e s s o w n e r w o u l d b e s e e i n g a n d

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w o u ld b e r e s p o n s ib le fo r.

S o b a c k th e n f o ll o w i n g t h a t l in e w il l m e a n

t h a t t h e t h e n G r o u p C I O w o u l d h a v e i n i ti a t e d t h i s te n d e r a n d b a c k th e n
it w a s D o c to r M a n ts i k a M a t o o a n e a n d h e w o u ld h a v e h a d t h e n p u t
s e r v ic e r e q u ir e m e n t s to g e t h e r b a s e d o n w h a t s h e w il l b e r e q u ir in g in
t e r m s o f a s e r v ic e p r o v id e r to h e lp h e r t o a c tu a l ly e x e c u t e o n h e r
r e s p o n s i b i li ty a s a G r o u p C I O .
CHAIRPERSON: Was she your predecessor?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S h e w a s m y p r e d e c e s s o r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
10

ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: If we could then turn to page 4 and the
d i a g r a m a t t h e t o p o f th e p a g e i n p a r t ic u l a r.

I s i t c o r r e c t th a t t h is

d i a g r a m r e p r e s e n ts Tr a n s n e t ’s e v a l u a t io n m e t h o d o l o g y ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : C h a ir t h e d ia g r a m t h a t y o u s e e
r e p r e s e n ts t h e Tr a n s n e t E v a l u a t io n M e t h o d o l o g y a s o f 2 0 1 5 .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d w h e n y o u l o o k p a r t ic u l a r ly a t t h e
d i ff e r e n t p a r ts o f t h is d i a g r a m a t t h e to p y o u h a v e a p r e - q u a l i fic a ti o n
s e c t io n t h e n t h e r e is a s t a g e 1 a n d a s ta g e 2 . A ll t h r e e o f w h ic h a r e
s u b - d iv i d e d i n t o d i ffe r e n t s t e p s . W o u ld i t b e f a ir c o m m e n t t o s a y t h a t
t h e e v a l u a t io n s c a n a c t u a l ly b e g r o u p e d i n t h e f o l l o w i n g l o o k in g a t th is
20

diagram?

S t e p 1 is t h e a d m i n is tr a ti v e r e s p o n s i v e n e s s .

Step 2 would

b e t h e s u b s t a n t iv e r e s p o n s iv e n e s s . S t e p 3 w h ic h s tr a d d le s o v e r s t e p 3 ,
4 a n d 5 d e a l s w i th m i n i m u m t h r e s h o l d s f o r th e t e c h n ic a l e v a lu a ti o n
s p e c i f ic t o l o c a l c o n t e n t , s u p p l ie r d e v e l o p m e n t a n d th e n fu n c t io n a l it y
a n d te c h n ic a l ? T h e n e x t p o i n t fo r e v a lu a t io n w o u l d b e t h e c o m m e r c i a l
v a l u a ti o n a n d t h a t w o u l d b e i n s t e p 6 w h e r e y o u h a v e y o u r w e i g h t e d

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s c o r i n g a n d th e n y o u h a v e a b it o f a d u e d ili g e n c e p r o c e s s u n d e r s t e p s
7 , 8 a n d 9 w h ic h w o u l d d e a l a ls o w i t h p o s t te n d e r n e g o t ia t io n s a n d i t
a ls o i n c l u d e s t h e b e s t a n d f in a l o ff e r r e q u e s ts t o i d e n ti fy p r e fe r r e d
b i d d e r s . A n d t h e l a s t s te p b e i n g t h e a c t u a l c o n tr a c t a w a r d . W o u l d th a t
b e a fa ir p r o c e s s o f e v a l u a ti o n a s c o n s o l i d a te d i n th is ta b le ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a i r i t w il l b e .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: When you joined…
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

This diagram does appear to have a

c e r t a i n f e a t u r e s w h ic h o th e r d i a g r a ms t h a t I h a v e b e e n s h o w n h a v e b u t
10

it h a s o t h e r s t h a t I h a v e n o t b e e n s h o w n .

M y r e c o ll e c ti o n o f t h e

d i a g r a m s w h e r e i t s i m p ly ta lk s a b o u t s ta g e 1 , s t a g e 2 a n d s ta g e 3 I
t h i n k I d o n o t – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r if t h e r e w a s a n y t h in g b e y o n d t h a t
a n d th e r e w a s n o t a n y s u b - d iv is io n o f e a c h s t a g e t o s a y u n d e r th is
s t a g e t h e r e is s ti ll s u b - s t a g e s i f y o u k n o w w h a t I m e a n .

So I am

w o n d e r i n g h o w it c o m p a r e s w i t h t h o s e o t h e r d ia g r a m s b e c a u s e I
a s s u m e th e y a ll b e in g u n d e r Tr a n s n e t i t m u s t b e o n e a n d t h e s a m e
t h i n g . M a y b e M s M o s i d i’s d e c i d e d t o p u t in m o r e c o m p a r t m e n ts u n d e r
each stage I am not sure.

I m e a n w h e n w e w e r e d e a l in g w i t h I t h in k

N e o t e l I d o n o t k n o w w h ic h o n a n – ja I t h in k N e o t e l t h e r e w e r e s t a g e s
20

1 , 2 a n d 3 a n d to g e t t o s t a g e 2 y o u h a d t o m e e t c e r t a i n t h r e s h o l d s a n d
s o o n . S o I a m j u s t w o n d e r i n g i t d o e s n o t s e e m t o b e e x a c tl y th e s a m e
a s w h a t I w a s s h o w n . T h a t is t h e p o i n t I a m m a k i n g a n d I j u s t w a n t t o
u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r t h a t is s i m p l y b e c a u s e th e r e a r e s o m e s t a g e – s u b stages or compartments under once – each stage that I was not told
b e c a u s e m a y b e i t w a s n o t i m p o r t a n t i n t h e e v i d e n c e o f p a r t ic u l a r

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w i t n e s s e s b u t d o e x is t i n th e s tr u c t u r e ?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir i f I m a y t h e n – t h i s p a r ti c u la r

d i a g r a m i s a c t u a l ly th e s a m e d i a g r a m t h a t a p p e a r s i n M r Vo l m i n k ’s
s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV

VERUSHKA

SEPTEMBER:

But

there

are

c e r t a i n ly

s li g h t

v a r ia t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s M r Vo l m in k ’s o n e h e r e in t h is le v e r a r c h fi le d o y o u
know?
10

ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Not…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I a m n o t s u r e C h a i r b u t I a m h a p p y to
e x tr a c t th e r e l e v a n t s e c t i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y m a y b e w e c a n p r o c e e d a n d l a te r w h e n y o u h a v e
h a d m o r e ti m e t o l o o k w e c a n c o m e b a c k t o i t m a y b e d u r i n g t h e lu n c h
b r e a k y o u c o u l d h a v e a lo o k a t Mr Vo l m i n k ’s o n e s o t h a t o n e c a n
c o m p a r e a n d s e e if o n e is d e a l in g w i th e x a c t ly t h e s a m e th i n g o r n o t
r e a l ly.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

20

I t i s c e r t a i n l y e x a c tly t h e s a m e

d i a g r a m b u t w e w i ll c e r t a i n l y s o u r c e t h e p r o p e r r e f e r e n c e p a g e n u m b e r
f o r y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e r e is a ls o v a r i a ti o n s t h o u g h .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O f t h is p a r ti c u l a r d i a g r a m .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h ic h s i m p l if i e s th e a c tu a l s ta g e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

So for example if I could take you

C h a ir t o p a g e 3 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a g e 3 1 i s a s ix s t a g e p r o c e s s b u t t h e
a c t u a l p r o c e s s o f e v a lu a ti o n is n o d i ff e r e n t t o th e m o r e d e ta il e d o n e o n
p a g e 4 o f th is w i tn e s s ’ s t a t e m e n t .
10

I t is r e a l ly j u s t c o l l a p s e s c e r t a i n

s t e p s a n d c o n s o li d a te s t h e m .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

L e t u s p r o c e e d m a y b e t h e d i ff e r e n c e s a r e

n o t m a te r i a l to th e e x t e n t t h a t t h e r e m a y b e d i ff e r e n c e s t h e r e m i g h t j u s t
be nuances. Let us proceed.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A s i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h e n y o u j o i n e d t h e o r g a n i s a t io n o f

Tr a n s n e t Ms M o d is i a t w h i c h s t a g e w a s t h i s p a r tic u la r t e n d e r p r o c e s s ?
MS

MAKANO

MURIEL ANNA

MOSIDI:

So

when

I

joined

the

o r g a n i s a t io n C h a i r I j o i n e d i t i n s te p 7 o f t h a t p r o c e s s t h a t y o u s e e
20

there.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER: Okay now if you…
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h in k – o k a y y o u – y o u h a v e g o t i n t h a t d ia g r a m a t
p a g e 4 s ta g e 1 a n d s t a g e 2 a n d th e n s t a g e 1 i s d iv id e d i n t o tw o
c o l u m n s , is t h a t r ig h t?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S t a g e 1 i s t h r e e c o l u m n s C h a ir.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th e – s o r r y ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S t a g e 1 i s t h r e e c o l u m n s .
CHAIRPERSON: And the 2 columns seem to – or maybe you – ja the
fir s t c o lu m n y o u h a v e g o t p r e - q u a l i fic a ti o n a s a h e a d i n g a n d th e n y o u
h a v e g o t s te p 1 a n d s t e p 2 .

A n d t h e n u n d e r s te – a n d t h e n i n t h e

c o l u m n y o u h a v e g o t s te p 3 , s t e p 4 , s t e p 5 . S o – s o w h a t I m a y h a v e
c a l l e d s u b - s t a g e s y o u h a v e a c tu a lly s a id i t i s s t e p s s o t h e r e w o u l d – a l l
of those would be steps to be taken under each stage?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t r i g h t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e y a r e n o t s t a g e s o n th e ir o w n i t is ju s t w h a t y o u
do under that stage?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o b u t a m I r i g h t t o s a y s t e p 1 u p to s t e p 5 fa ll u n d e r
stage 1? Am I right?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir I w o u ld n o t – j a I w o u l d

n o t d i ff e r w i t h t h a t j a .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s o k a y.

A n d th e n w h e n i t c o m e s t o s t a g e 2 y o u

h a v e g o t s t e p s 6 u p to s t e p 1 0 , is t h a t r i g h t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t . I t h in k t h a t g o e s – g o e s t o – g o e s s o m e
w a y t o h e l p i n g m e . I t h in k t h a t g o e s s o m e w a y t o h e l p i n g m e .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir I h a v e b e e n r e m in d e d t h a t th e

ti m e is p a s t …

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y l e t u s g o u p to h a l f p a s t a n d t h e n t a k e t h e b r e a k
– the tea break.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o p r o b l e m C h a ir.

When we look at

t h is p a r tic u la r t a b l e y o u s a y t h e n t h a t y o u e n t e r e d a t s t e p 7 ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o w t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t p r o c e s s e s h a d
a lr e a d y b e e n f o ll o w e d b y th e ti m e t h a t y o u j o in e d l e t u s l o o k th e n a t t h e
p r e v i o u s s t e p s s o t h a t y o u c a n i n f o r m t h e C h a i r p r a c tic a l ly w h a t
a c t u a ll y i t e n ta il e d ?
10

MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

O k a y.

S o C h a ir I m e n t io n e d

a lr e a d y th a t a s a b u s in e s s o w n e r y o u p u t to g e th e r t h e t e n d e r
r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d t h e s p e c if ic a ti o n s t h a t y o u w o u ld l ik e t h e b id d e r s to
r e s p o n d to .

S o o n c e t h e r e s p o n d e n t s h a v e s u b m it t e d t h e ir p r o p o s a ls

w e c a n n o w g o i n t o t h e p r e - q u a li fi c a t io n s t a g e i n te r ms o f th a t g r a p h ic
that you see there.

S o t h e f i r s t s t e p C h a ir is ju s t v e r y, v e r y

a d m i n is tr a t iv e a n d i n th a t s t e p w h a t y o u r e a l ly lo o k f o r y o u l o o k a t
v a r io u s a d m i n is tr a t iv e th in g s lik e w a s t h e te n d e r l o d g e d in ti m e
b e c a u s e t h e r e is a lw a y s a c l o s i n g p e r i o d a n d t h o s e w h o a r e l a t e t h e y
g e t d is q u a li fi e d a n d a r e t h e r e s o m e d o c u m e n ts t h a t w e r e r e q u ir e d b y
20

t h e t e n d e r a n d h a v e b e e n s u b mi t t e d w h ic h p e o p l e w i ll c a l l r e tu r n a b l e
d o c u m e n ts b e c a u s e t h e y w il l h a v e t o b e g iv e n b a c k t o t h e b i d d e r s a t
t h e e n d . A n d w h e th e r a ll th e d o c u m e n ts t h a t h a v e b e e n s u b m it t e d a r e
t h e y v a l id ? I f y o u s a y t h is is m y B E E c e r ti fi c a t e i s i t a v a l i d c e r ti f ic a t e ?
I f it i s a t a x c e r ti fi c a t e is s ti ll v a li d ?

A n d s o o n s o i t is v e r y

a d m i n is tr a t iv e . S o t h a t w a s d o n e C h a i r a l r e a d y w h e n I j o i n e d t h e s te p

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1.

T h e s e c o n d s t e p is r e a ll y i n t e r m s o f s u b s ta n ti v e r e s p o n s iv e n e s s .

A n d h e r e y o u a r e s ti ll a c tu a l ly l o o k i n g a t th e b id d e r s a n d t h e ir
r e s p o n s e s a n d y o u a r e c h e c k i n g a t w h e t h e r h a v e th e y p r o v i d e d p r ic i n g
b e c a u s e h o w a r e y o u g o i n g to e v a l u a t e i f t h e y d o n o t h a v e p r ic e ? H a v e
t h e y r e s p o n d e d to t h e t e c h n ic a l r e q u ir e m e n ts th a t y o u w o u l d l ik e t o
h a v e ? H a v e t h e y r e s p o n d e d to t h i n g s li k e s u p p li e r d e v e l o p m e n t i f t h a t
is w h a t y o u r e q u ir e ? S o y o u – it is a c t u a l l y s o m e k i n d o f a t ic k b o x t h a t
t h e te a m i n p r o c u r e m e n t w i ll a c tu a l ly d o a n d t h a t o n e w a s d o n e a l s o
C h a ir. N o w y o u m o v e t o – n o w y o u a r e s t a g e 2 w h ic h I w o u ld s t a r t w i th
10

s t e p 3 w h e r e it w i ll l o o k a t f o r e x a m p l e t h e l o c a l c o n te n t , t h e s u p p l ie r
de…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d id n o t s a y s ta g e 2 d id y o u ?
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s s h e d id .
CHAIRPERSON: She did?\
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S t a g e 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o I s a i d –
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e s ti ll i n s t a g e 1 a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t , i s t h a t

r ig h t ? A n d i t i s i m p o r t a n t th a t w e c l a r i fy.
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : O h i t is s t ill p a r t o f t h a t s t a g e 1
ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t is i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e t h a t w a s m y c la r i fi c a t io n t h a t
y o u g a v e m e w h ic h h e l p e d m e t o u n d e r s t a n d i t.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y w e a r e s t il l i n s t a g e 1 .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s w e a r e s ti ll i n s t a g e 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: We going to step…
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : A n d C h a ir I w il l ta k e y o u th r o u g h
the steps.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Just so that I do not get

c o n fu s e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s .

N o b u t i f y o u te ll – i f y o u s a y n o w w e

m o v e d fr o m s t a g e 1 t o s t a g e 2 w h e n w e g e t to t h a t
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t m a k e s s u r e th a t t h e r e is n o c o n f u s io n a s t o

w h ic h s t e p s u n d e r – fa ll u n d e r w h ic h s t a g e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : S o C h a ir s t il l ta lk in g t o s t a g e 1
n o w i n s t e p 3 , s t e p 4 a n d s te p 5 .

S o s t e p 3 t h e y w il l l o o k a t l o c a l

c o n te n t i f i t i s a p p lic a b l e t o a p a r ti c u l a r t e n d e r a n d t h e n s t e p 4 i n t e r m s
o f s u p p li e r d e v e lo p m e n t i f t h e r e a r e a n y th r e s h o l d s t h a t h a v e b e e n
requested.
20

N o w t h e c r i ti c a l o n e w il l b e s t e p 5 w h e r e w e a r e n o w

e v a l u a t i n g a p p r o p r i a te n e s s o f t h e f u n c ti o n a li ty t h a t w e r e q u e s t e d a n d
t h e te c h n ic a l r e q u i r e m e n ts th a t w e a c t u a ll y a s k e d t h e b id d e r s to
r e s p o n d to .

A n d C h a i r b e c a u s e t h i s is a n I T t e n d e r I a m s a y i n g t h a t

s t e p is q u i te c r i ti c a l b e c a u s e t h a t is w h y w e a r e a c t u a l ly g o in g o u t o n
t e n d e r to s e e k a p p r o p r i a t e a n d p u r p o s e f i t s e r v ic e s p r o v i d e r s w h o w i ll
b e a b l e to h e l p u s i n e x e c u ti n g th is . S o t h a t w h o le s t a g e 1 th e n C h a i r

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
y o u w o u ld a ls o j u s t f o r m e t o a m p li f y t h a t w h e n y o u d o te c h n ic a l
e v a l u a t i o n w h e n y o u s c o r e s o m e o n e f r o m 1 o n a s c a le o f 1 to 5 a n d y o u
s a y c a n t h is p e r s o n a c t u a l ly h a v e a n o p e r a ti o n a l h e lp d e s k ? A n d I s a y
y e s h e c a n b u t p e r h a p s h e d o e s n o t h a v e t h e s k il l t h e r e is a r is k o f n o t
b e i n g a b l e to a c t u a ll y r u n it t h e w a y i t s h o u l d . By t h e t i m e I p u t a s c o r e
I w o u ld h a v e t a k e n i n to c o n s i d e r a t io n a w h o le l o t o f t h o s e a s p e c ts t o
s a y y e s h e h a s a h e l p d e s k , y e s i t is o p e r a t i o n a l b u t m a y b e n o i t is
a c t u a ll y n e x t to t h e s e a s o th e r e i s a d a n g e r o f i t b e i n g I a m j u s t b e i n g
– g iv in g a n e x a m p le t h e r e .
10

S o b y t h e t i m e y o u a c tu a l ly e v a l u a te a n d

y o u s c o r e y o u a r e a c t u a l ly t a k i n g e v e r y t h i n g i n to c o n s i d e r a t io n t o m a k e
s u r e t h a t t h is s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r w i ll b e a b l e t o p r o v id e th e s e r v ic e t h a t
t h e y a r e s a y i n g t h e y a r e c a p a b l e o f p r o v i d i n g . S o t h e n C h a ir t h a t w il l
then conclude your stage 1.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER:

O n th e c o n c l u s io n o f s ta g e 1 d i d

Tr a n s n e t e s t a b l is h a t e a m o f p e o p l e to d e a l w it h th e e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s
a n d w h a t w e r e th e y c a ll e d ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

O k a y s o C h a ir w h e n y o u

e v a l u a t e e s p e c ia ll y a t e n d e r a s b i g a s th i s o n e w h i c h y o u w o u l d h a v e
p ic k e d fr o m M r Vo l m i n k ’s t e s ti m o n y th a t it is c a l l e d a H ig h Va l u e Te n d e r
20

b e c a u s e i t is m o r e th a n R 5 0 m i ll io n . T h e r e i s a p r o c e s s o f e v a l u a t io n
t h a t g e ts f o l lo w e d a n d t h e r e is a t e a m t h a t g e ts p u ts to g e th e r. S o h e
b u s i n e s s o w n e r b e c a u s e t h e b u s i n e s s o w n e r u n d e r s t a n d s o p e r a t io n a l ly
w h a t t h e b u s i n e s s o w n e r w il l b e l o o k i n g f o r w i ll p u t to g e th e r a c r o s s f u n c t i o n a l e v a l u a t i o n te a m t h a t w il l in c l u d e t e c h n i c a l c a p a b il i ty t h a t
s h o u l d b e a b le t o e n g a g e w i t h th e b i d s a s th e y c o m e t h r o u g h . S o th a t

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t e a m is c a ll e d y o u w i ll s e e i t a b b r e v i a t e d a l o t a C F E T b u t i t i s a c r o s s f u n c t i o n a l e v a l u a t io n t e a m w h i c h th e b u s in e s s o w n e r a n d i n t h is c a s e it
w o u ld h a v e b e e n t h e G r o u p C h ie f I n f o r m a ti o n O ff ic e r t h e y w o u l d h a v e
s ig n e d o ff t o s a y t h i s is th e t e a m th a t w il l a c t u a l ly g o a n d e v a l u a te t h e
t e c h n ic a l a s p e c ts o f t h is t e n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s th e r e w a s a w i t n e s s o r t w o w h o s p o k e e x te n s iv e l y
o n t h e – o n e t h e g r o u p s o r t e a m s w h o p l a y s c e r t a i n d i ff e r e n t r o le s i n
t h e t e n d e r e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s o r in t h e p r o c e s s fr o m t h e t i m e t h e R F P
is f o r m u la t e d t o t h e ti m e th a t is th e t e n d e r is a w a r d e d . S o u n l e s s t h e y
10

a r e s p e c i fi c f e a tu r e s t h a t a r e p e c u li a r t o y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t t h a t I
u n d e r s t a n d . Th a t k i n d o f e v id e n c e w h o d o e s w h a t d o e s n o t n e e d to b e
e x p l a i n e d . T h e ir n a m e s c a n ju s t b e m e n t i o n e d . T h is b o d y d i d th is a n d
t h is b o d y d i d t h a t w h i c h i s i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h i t s fu n c t io n a n d w h e th e r
it d i d it t h e r i g h t w a y o r th e w r o n g w a y b u t w e d o n o t n e e d to e x p l a in a l l
of that.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A s i t p le a s e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: I am informed…
C H A I R P E R S O N : L e t u s t a k e t h e te a b r e a k .

20

ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Before…
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l r e s u m e a t q u a r te r t o t w e lv e .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

T h e p a r ti c u la r

p a g e n u m b e r a s p r o m i s e d is i n M r Vo l m i n k ’s b u n d l e a n d i t i s p a g e 6 8 9 .
I t i n f a c t f o r m s p a r t o f t h e Tr a n s n e t P r o c u r e m e n t P r o c e d u r e s M a n u a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e r i g h t .

I t l o o k s l ik e – e x a c t ly th e s a m e o r

m a y b e n o t 1 0 0 p e r c e n t b u t s u b s ta n ti a lly it lo o k s t h e s a m e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Coming for …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

M s M o s i d i b e fo r e th e

s h o r t a d j o u r n m e n t y o u s p o k e t h e n a b o u t t h e s t a g e 1 w h ic h d e a l t w i th
t h e b r ie f q u a li fi c a t io n o f a d m i n is tr a ti v e r e s p o n s iv e n e s s , s u b s ta n ti v e
r e s p o n s iv e n e s s a n d th e n m in i m u m t h r e s h o l d a c r o s s lo c a l c o n t e n t ,
s u p p ly d e v e lo p m e n t f u n c ti o n a li ty a n d t e c h n ic a l .

Is i t c o r r e c t t h a t in

o r d e r t o a d v a n c e f r o m o n e s t e p t o th e n e x t o n e n e e d s to s a t is fy t h e n a ll
o f th e r e q u ir e m e n ts u n d e r a ( b a c k g r o u n d n o is e ) i n o r d e r to a d v a n c e t o
s u b s t a n t iv e i n o r d e r to a d v a n c e t o t h e n e x t s t a g e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir t h a n k y o u . Ye s t h e s t e p s
a s w e s e e th e m t h e y a r e c h r o n o l o g ic a l a n d th e y a r e i n s e q u e n c e . S o i f
20

f o r e x a m p l e a d m i n i s tr a t iv e ly I a m n o t a b l e t o p r o v id e th e r i g h t
d o c u m e n t a ti o n o r m y d o c u m e n t a ti o n is n o t v a l id C h a ir i t w i ll n o t m a k e
a n y s e n s e f o r y o u to p r o c e e d t o t h e n e x t s t e p b e c a u s e y o u w o u l d h a v e
f a il e d t h e p r e - q u a l if ic a ti o n t h a t is a ls o m a n d a to r y – i f I c a n u s e t h a t
w o r d – s o b y t h e ti m e y o u r e a c h t h e f i v e i t m e a n s y o u h a v e b e e n
q u a li fy in g a n d s a t is fy in g th e r e q u i r e m e n ts o f Tr a n s n e t u n t il y o u g e t to a

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p o i n t w h e r e y o u a r e in s t e p fiv e a n d s a y w e a r e n o w e v a l u a t in g y o u r
t e c h n ic a l r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d f u n c ti o n a li t y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

It w a s a l s o y o u r e v i d e n c e if I

u n d e r s t o o d c o r r e c t ly th a t u n d e r s t e p s 3 , f o u r a n d fi v e in p a r t ic u l a r t o
t e c h n ic a l a n d f u n c ti o n a li ty t h e r e w e r e r i s k s t h a t w e r e c o n s i d e r e d .

Is

that correct?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s .

S o w h e n I w a s g iv in g a n

e x a m p l e o f t h e h e l p d e s k C h a ir I w a s s a y in g w h e n y o u – w h e n y o u
e v a l u a t e a n y t e c h n ic a l s p e c i fi c a t io n t h a t y o u a r e d o in g y o u a lr e a d y
10

in h e r e n tl y s t a r t t h in k i n g a n d l o o k i n g a t th e r e s p o n s e s a n d y o u s c o r e it
b a s e d o n w h a t th e c a p a b ili t y is a n d w h a t y o u d e e m a s a r is k w h a t w i ll
a c t u a ll y – s o b y th e t i m e y o u g iv e s o m e o n e a s c o r e y o u w o u l d h a v e
c o n s i d e r e d t h e r is k s a s w e ll . F o r e x a m p l e if y o u a r e s a y in g y e s I h a v e
a m a in fr a m e b u t a lr e a d y t h is m a i n fr a m e is 3 0 y e a r s o ld a n d th e r e f o r e i t
w i ll b e s o s l o w. T h e m a p s w i ll b e s o e x p e n s iv e . T h e m i ll io n i n s tr u c t io n s
t h a t – t h a t w e a c tu a l ly p r i c e m a i n fr a m e s b a s e d o n w il l b e s o e x p e n s iv e .
O f c o u r s e t h e n I s t a r t – w h e n I e v a l u a t e I w i ll t a k e t h a t i n t o c o g n is a n c e
a n d I w ill g iv e y o u a s c o r e b a s e d o n t h e o v e r a ll e v a lu a ti o n a n d
a s s e s s m e n t o f w h a t I w i ll b e l o o k i n g a t . Ye s C h a ir.

20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o w h e n y o u a d v a n c e fr o m s ta g e
1 i n to s t a g e 2 n o w l o o k i n g a t s t e p 6 w e i g h t e d s c o r i n g is th e n a p p l ie d t o
t h o s e w h o h a v e q u a li f ie d o u t o f s ta g e 1 ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ja.

S o – s o w h e n w e e v a lu a t e

C h a ir – s o t h e r e is t h a t t e a m w h ic h is l o o k in g a t t h e te c h n i c a l s id e o f
t h i n g s l ik e w e h a v e b e e n ta lk i n g o f t h e C r o s s F u n c ti o n a l Ev a l u a ti o n

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Te a m a n d t h e r e i s n o w a n e v a l u a t io n o f t h e c o m m e r c i a ls in te r ms o f
t h a t a n d t h e n w e d o i t a w e i g h te d s c o r e a n d y o u e n d u p w i t h t h e o v e r a ll
in te r ms o f t h e b i d d e r s h o w t h e y h a v e f a r e d w h e n y o u w e r e a c tu a lly
evaluating them.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : H o w m a n y b i d d e r s q u a li f i e d … ?
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

T h e t e c h n ic a l a n d th e c o m m e r c ia l

e v a l u a t i o n d o e s i t h a p p e n u n d e r s ta g e 1 o r u n d e r s t a g e 2 …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I a m t a lk in g s t a g e n o w n o t s te p – s t a g e .
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t w o u l d h a v e h a p p e n e d i n s t a g e
1 C h a ir. W h e n y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h e r e i t is s u p p o s e d t o h a p p e n ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W h e n y o u d o s t e p 3 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S t e p 4 a n d s t e p 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : H o w m a n y b i d d e r s q u a li f ie d f o ll o w i n g

20

t h e w e i g h te d s c o r i n g a p p l ie d t o t h o s e w h o w e r e q u a li f ie d u n d e r s t a g e
1?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

So

on

record

it –

it was

r e c o r d e d t h a t s e v e n b i d d e r s a c tu a lly q u a l if ie d . S o t h e y m a d e i t th r o u g h
t o s te p 6 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So then by the time that you joined

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
a t s te p 7 t h e r e w e r e s e v e n b i d d e r s w h o h a d q u a l if i e d …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W h o w o u l d h a v e q u a li fi e d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A t th a t p a r ti c u la r p o i n t i n t i m e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

P a r a g r a p h – p a r a g r a p h 11 o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t o n p a g e 4 a d d r e s s e s th e m a i n c o n c e r n s a n d o b j e c ti o n s t h a t
you had regarding this procurement process.

Please clarify to the

C h a ir w h a t t h o s e m a i n c o n c e r n s a n d o b j e c t io n s w e r e .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
10

Ja.

S o C h a ir o n s t e p 6 w h e r e

w e th e n t a k e t h e a g g r e g a t io n o f b o th p r i c e a n d f u n c t i o n a l i ty t h a t y o u
w o u ld h a v e s e e n in s t a g e 1 w e e n d e d u p w i t h t h o s e s e v e n w h o a c t u a l ly
q u a li fi e d . S o w h a t i t m e a n s i s t h a t o n a f la t l in e a l l t h o s e s e v e n c o u l d
do the work.

T h e y w e r e t e c h n ic a l ly p r o fi c i e n t a n d a b l e a n d t h e y

a c t u a ll y w e r e f i t f o r p u r p o s e i n t e r m s o f w h a t w e w e r e lo o k i n g f o r. S o
w h e n y o u s t a r t n o w g o i n g in t o s te p 7 C h a i r I w il l h a v e t o g iv e a s b i t o f
a b a c k g r o u n d o f h o w t h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d w h i c h I t h i n k I c o u ld h a v e
in c l u d e d i t i n m y s t a te m e n t a s w e ll . S o t h e – i n s te p 7 t h e n t h e r e w a s a
s h o r tl is t o f t w o b id d e r s .

N o w t h a t is w h e n I j o i n e d a n d I s e e t h is

c o m m u n ic a ti o n th a t t h e r e w il l b e s h o r t li s ti n g t w o b id d e r s o u t o f th e
20

s e v e n w h o a r e c a p a b le .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t h in k b e fo r e w e a d d r e s s th a t …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t i s i m p o r ta n t t o ju s t g iv e t h e o v e r a ll
fr a m e w o r k w i th i n w h i c h t h is p a r tic u la r p r o c e s s w a s i n fa c t c o n d u c t e d .
S o w e c e r t a i n ly w il l b e c o m i n g t o t h a t …

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A l it t le l a te r …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: But in that regard we – we can then
accept based on your evidence that all risk assessments had been done
b y th e ti m e t h a t y o u h a d j o i n e d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s . Ye s C h a ir. S o – s o – o h I
t h o u g h t I m a d e t h a t p o i n t w h e n I w a s e x p l a i n in g C h a ir t h a t w h e n y o u
a d j u d ic a te y o u – y o u t a k e i n t o a c c o u n t t h e r is k s p r o f il e o f e a c h a n d
10

every response.

S o y o u – y o u a c t u a ll y s c o r e t a k i n g i n t o a c c o u n t t h e

t e c h n ic a l c a p a b il i ty b u t a l s o t h e r i s k a n d t h e – w h a t y o u a c tu a lly d e e m
a s b e i n g t h e p r o fi l e o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r r e s p o n s e w h i c h w ill t a k e i n t o
a c c o u n t t h e r is k s a s w e l l .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o b y t h e ti m e y o u s c o r e it y o u
h a v e t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t th o s e r i s k s a s w e l l. W h a t is l e f t o f c o u r s e is
w h e n p e o p l e a r e n o w g o i n g t o d o th e s i t e j u s t t o te s t a n d s e e i f in tr u t h
t h o s e t h i n g s e x i s t b u t n o w y o u a r e – y o u a r e h o m e a n d d r y. Yo u k n o w
t h a t th e s e p e o p l e c a n a c t u a l ly d o th e w o r k …
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: (Intervenes).
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: R i s k in c l u d e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S p e c i fic t o t h e r is k s w h a t w e r e y o u r

c o n c e r n s i n r e l a ti o n t o th e r i s k s a t t h is p a r ti c u la r s ta g e t h a t y o u jo in e d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o – s o a t t h is s ta g e I j u s t h a d a
b i g c o n c e r n in t e r m s o f h o w th e r is k s w e r e t h e n in tr o d u c e d i n t o t h e

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process.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u j o i n e d th e s h o r t li s ti n g o f t h e t w o e n t it i e s

h a d a lr e a d y t a k e n p l a c e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t – i t a c t u a lly h a p p e n e d a s I

w a s j o i n i n g C h a ir a n d y o u w il l s e e l a t e r in t h e s t a te m e n t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

H o w I t r i e d t o g iv e in p u t i n

t e r m s o f i n c r e a s in g th e n e t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: B e c a u s e o f t h is te n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o t o n ly l i m i ti n g i t t o tw o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

B u t p e r h a p s b e c a u s e o f th e

c o m p le x i ty a n d t h e s iz e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o y o u s p o k e a b o u t th e i n t r o d u c ti o n

o f r is k s w h ic h y o u d o c u m e n t a t p a r a g r a p h 11 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t .
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s .

Th e y

were

now

r e i n tr o d u c e d i n to t h e B A F O w h ic h in m y v ie w t h e r e w o u l d h a v e b e e n –
they would have formed part of the evaluation process before that
s t a g e – b e fo r e th a t B A F O .

T h a t i s t h e f ir s t o n e C h a ir.

The second

concern that I had …
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y.

W h a t y o u h a v e j u s t s a i d is – is i t

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c a p tu r e d i n 11 . 11 ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : 11 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f y o u r s t a t e m e n t p a r a g r a p h 11 …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: 11 . 1 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 .1 – I a m s o r r y. I s th a t s t e p 8 t h e r e c o r r e c t i n t h e
li g h t o f y o u r c o r r e c t i o n o f s te p – s te p 9 t o s t e p 7 ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir. S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is c o r r e c t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o t h a t i s f i n e . O k a y. N o th a t is f in e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o y o u r f ir s t c o n c e r n is th a t t h e r e

w e r e r i s k s w h i c h w e r e a n i n t e g r a l p a r t o f t h e e v a l u a t io n p r o c e s s t h a t
w e r e r e in tr o d u c e d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Th a t w e r e r e i n tr o d u c e d in t o t h e

evaluation process.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: What other concerns did you have?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Th e o th e r c o n c e r n w a s w h e n I

lo o k e d a t th is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. R e in tr o d u c e d s u c h a s th a t th e y h a d b e e n
20

lo o k e d a t s o m e s t a g e b e f o r e a n d …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s b e c a u s e …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o m e th i n g h a d h a p p e n e d t o th e m a n d n o w t h e y a r e

b r o u g h t b a c k . J u s t e x p l a i n th a t a li t tl e b i t .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a . S o C h a ir w h e n y o u e v a lu a t e
y o u d o a 3 6 0 º d e g r e e e v a l u a ti o n o f a r e s p o n s e . S o i f th e r is k – t h e r e is

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s o m e r is k i n t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t y o u s e e y o u r s c o r e w i ll t a k e t h a t i n to
c o g n is a n c e . Yo u w i ll s a y I h a v e s c o r e d t h e m t w o o u t o f 1 0 b e c a u s e I
s e e t h e r i s k o f t h e ir c a p a b il i ty – t h e r i s k – s o y o u h a v e – y o u h a v e
in c l u d e d i t i n y o u r te c h n ic a l e v a l u a t io n . N o w w h e n y o u a r e a t t h e e n d
a n d y o u s ta r t t a lk i n g a b o u t t h o s e r is k s a lr e a d y w h i ls t y o u h a v e a c t u a ll y
a p p li e d t h e r is k s a s y o u w e r e e v a lu a ti n g I j u s t ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t i s w h a t y o u t a l k – y o u a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h e n

y o u s a y th e y w e r e in tr o d u c e d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h e y w e r e r e in tr o d u c e d ja .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h e y w e r e r e a p p li e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t y o u m e a n is i f t h e y w e r e t a k e n i n t o a c c o u n t
a t a n e a r li e r s t a g e …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s , y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e e n t it y w a s e v a l u a te d o n a c e r t a i n b a s i s

in c l u d i n g t h e m w h e n y o u l a t e r o n ta k e t h e m i n t o a c c o u n t a g a in …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e r e i n tr o d u c t io n y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d fr o m w h a t y o u s a y it s e e m s y o u a r e s u g g e s ti n g

t h a t s h o u l d n o t n o r m a lly h a p p e n ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t s h o u ld n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e r e t h e s e r i s k s r e le v a n t o r m a te r i a l
in a n y r e s p e c t in y o u r e x p e r i e n c e ?

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

So the second concern that I

h a d C h a ir w a s i n t e r m s o f t h e m a te r i a l it y o f t h e r i s k s a n d I fo u n d t h e m
ir r e l e v a n t a n d n o t m a t e r ia l a n d I t h i n k l a t e r o n C h a ir w h e n I s p e a k to
t h e r i s k s I w i ll j u s t e x p l a in w h y n o t . I m p o r ta n t t h o u g h t o m e n ti o n t h a t
t h is te n d e r j u s t t h e w a y i t w a s s e t u p w a s s e t u p i n s u c h a w a y t h a t i t is
a g r e e n - fi e l d t e n d e r. S o I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t ju s t t o b e a r t h a t in m i n d
w h e n I s ta r t t a lk i n g t o t h e r i s k s l a t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex p la in a g r e e n - fi e l d t e n d e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o g r e e n - fi e ld t e n d e r is t h a t y o u
a s s u m e t h a t t h e r e i s n o th i n g . Yo u a r e a ll t a k i n g o ff fr o m p o i n t z e r o . S o
w i t h t h i s t e n d e r t h e r e w a s th e c u r r e n t i n c u m b e n t w h o w a s w i t h i n
Tr a n s n e t g iv in g t h e s a m e s e r v i c e a n d c o m p e ti n g w i th t h e r e s t b u t fo r
f a ir n e s s a n d – a n d e q u it y y o u t h e n s a y w e a s s u m e th a t y o u a r e a l l a t
zero.

N o o n e i s in th e e n v ir o n m e n t .

S o l e t u s n o t t a k e t h a t i n to

c o g n is a n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: To e n s u r e th a t t h e r e i s e q u i ty i n
t e r m s o f a d ju d i c a t i o n – i n t e r m s o f e v a lu a ti o n a n d a d j u d ic a ti o n .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. S o – s o i f t h e r e i s s o m e b o d y w h o is c u r r e n tly
p r o v i d in g t h e s e r v ic e t h a t p e r s o n m a y h a v e p e r fo r m e d p u r e ly –
p e r f o r m e d v e r y w e l l?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u s a y – y o u s a y le t u s p r e te n d a s i f t h e r e is

nobody?

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s . A l l o f u s w h o a r e n e w w e

a r e s ta r t in g a t p o i n t z e r o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I h o p e t h a t a t s o m e s ta g e …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t w ill ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t w i ll b e t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t b e c a u s e y o u – y o u

obviously would not take somebody whose performance has been
d is a s t r o u s a n d - a n d g i v e – a n d s a y y o u a r e s t a r ti n g n e w a n d y o u n e v e r
10

t a k e n in t o a c c o u n t th e d is a s tr o u s p e r f o r m a n c e .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e c u r r e n t i n c u m b e n t t o th is

p a r t ic u l a r o p e r a ti o n w a s T- S y s t e m s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t w a s T- Sy s te m s C h a i r S o u t h

A fr ic a .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d T- S y s t e m s w a s i n fa c t c o m p e ti n g
f o r t h is p a r t ic u l a r te n d e r a s a b i d d e r ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
20

I t w a s a ls o – i t w a s a ls o

c o m p e ti n g a s a b i d d e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : 11 . 3 d o c u m e n t s a n o t h e r c o n c e r n th a t
y o u h a d in r e la t io n to t h is t e n d e r. C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p la i n t h a t t o t h e
C h a ir ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
June 2016.

S o – s o C h a ir I j o i n e d in

I s ta r t e n g a g i n g w i th o n e o f th e b i g g e s t o u t s o u r c e s o f

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Tr a n s n e t w h e n i t c o m e s t o I T a n d t h e r e i s a w h o l e p r o c e s s w h e n y o u
a r e e v a l u a t i n g h i g h v a l u e te n d e r s a n d o n e o f th e m is t h a t th e r e m u s t b e
a s p e c i f ic r e p o r t th a t t h e y w il l a h i g h v a l u e t e n d e r r e p o r t w h ic h w o u l d
h a v e b e e n p r e p a r e d to l o o k a t t h i s h ig h v a l u e t e n d e r a n d w h e t h e r it w a s
c o m p li a n t a n d w h e th e r i t i s fu ll y r i s k m i ti g a te d a n d w h e t h e r e v e r y t h i n g
is a c tu a lly i n p l a c e . J u s t s o t h a t th e y g iv e t h e c o n f id e n c e to t h o s e w h o
a r e s u p p o s e d to m a k e t h e d e c i s i o n .

S o w h e n I jo i n e d t h e f ir s t r e p o r t

t h a t I r e c e i v e d a n d b y t h e n I k n e w i t is n o t l ik e I k n o w e x a c tly h o w i t
s h o u l d l o o k li k e b u t it w a s n o t a c t u a l ly s i g n e d a n d I – I d i d n o t r e a l is e
10

t h a t i t c a r r i e d a l o t o f w e ig h t u n t il a li t tl e b i t la t e r. S o – a n d a c c o r d in g
t o p r a c t ic e i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n – i t w o u ld h a v e a c t u a ll y f o r m e d p a r t o f
t h e w h o le r e p o r t i n t e r m s o f t h e t e n d e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : 11 . 4 d o c u m e n ts y o u r l a s t c o n c e r n o r
r a th e r y o u r l a s t m a in c o n c e r n . D id y o u … ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: ( I n d is t in c t) ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : 11 . 4 o n p a g e 5 t a lk s a b o u t y o u r l a s t
c o n c e r n a n d th a t w a s t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t w a s m a d e i n r e la t io n t o
the award.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

20

O h o k a y.

S o – s o C h a ir t h e

e v a l u a t i o n h a d b e g u n a n d t h e r e w a s s o m e k in d o f a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n
t h a t w a s d o n e f o r t h e a w a r d o f t h is t e n d e r a n d p r o c u r e m e n t in Tr a n s n e t
it r e p o r ts i n t o t h e G r o u p – G r o u p C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r a n d a t th e t i m e
it w a s M r G a r r y P i ta a n d i n t h a t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n my b i g g e s t c o n c e r n
r e a l ly w a s t h a t th e y in c l u d e d s o m e o f th e r i s k s a g a in s t t h e c o m p e ti n g
b i d d e r a n d in t h is in s t a n c e it w a s G i ji m a t o s u p p o r t t h e a w a r d o f th is

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t e n d e r to T- S y s t e m s . S o I t h i n k t h o s e w e r e th e th r e e m a in ( in d is ti n c t)
in t e r m s o f th e c o n c e r n s t h a t I h a d .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : To u n d e r s t a n d t h e i m p o r ta n c e o f t h is
p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r t o Tr a n s n e t a s a n o r g a n is a ti o n it is c o m m o n c a u s e
n o w t h a t t h i s t e n d e r r e l a t e d to d a ta s e r v ic e s .

P l e a s e e x p l a in w h a t

e x a c tl y is d a t a s e r v ic e s f o r p u r p o s e s o f Tr a n s n e t ’s o p e r a ti o n s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o C h a ir l e t u s – l e t u s s t a r t b y
ju s t t a l k i n g t o w h a t a d a t a s e r v ic e i s . S o in a n y o r g a n i s a t io n t h e r e w i ll
b e s o m e t r a n s a c t io n a l s y s t e ms o r s o m e t r a n s a c ti o n a l a p p l ic a t i o n s i n to
10

w h ic h p e o p l e c a p t u r e s o u r c e d a t a a n d ju s t f o r s i m p l i fic a ti o n I w i ll s a y
s o u r c e d a ta w i ll b e s o m e t h i n g li k e w h e r e y o u c a p t u r e a n d o r d e r i n t o o r
w h e r e y o u c a p t u r e m y n a m e a s a n e m p lo y e e a n d m y w h o le p r o fi l e , m y
a d d r e s s o r w h e r e y o u c a p t u r e y o u r c u s to m e r s . N o w a ll th o s e r e c o r d s
t h e y m a k e u p d a t a f o r t h is o r g a n is a ti o n a n d a s y o u c a p t u r e t h e m in t o
t h is a – a n u m b e r o f t h i n g s c o m e i n t o p l a y.

S o y o u h a v e th e p e o p l e

w h o c a p tu r e b u t y o u a l s o h a v e p e o p le w h o a r e r e s p o n s ib l e f o r t h e
u p k e e p a n d t h e r u n n in g o f t h e s y s te m s th a t y o u a r e u s i n g b u t y o u a ls o
h a v e p e o p le w h o m u s t s e c u r e a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t t h a t d a ta t h a t y o u
h a v e c a p t u r e d is s e c u r e d .
20

I t i s c o r r e c tl y a c c e s s e d .

The people who

a c t u a ll y ta p in t o t h e d a t a a r e th e r i g h t p e o p l e to d o t h a t b u t t h e n y o u
a ls o m a k e s u r e t h a t th is d a ta c a n b e u s e d b y e v e r y o n e w h o i s c o r r e c t ly
a u t h e n t ic a te d .

S o t h e c o m b i n a ti o n o f a l l t h e s e t h i n g s t h e y m a k e u p

y o u r d a t a s e r v ic e s b u t th a t d a t a i t w il l n o t b e u s e f u l t o y o u if y o u
c a n n o t a c tu a lly tr a n s p o r t i t to t h e r i g h t p e o p l e w h o n e e d to u s e t h e d a ta
a n d fo r t h a t p u r p o s e th e n y o u w i ll h a v e t h e c o m m u n i c a t io n s la y e r w h ic h

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p e o p l e w i ll c a ll n e t w o r k in g .

To m a k e s u r e th a t th is d a t a c a n m o v e to

w h e r e i t n e e d s t o g e t to b u t t h a t n e t w o r k in g i t m e a n s i t m u s t a c t u a l ly
hinge into where you have posted your data and where you start
a c t u a ll y tr a n s p o r ti n g i t to t h e o t h e r a r e a s .

Now that data as you

c o n ti n u e t o w o r k w i t h i t t h e n y o u s t a r t d e r iv i n g i n fo r m a ti o n a n d m a k i n g
sense out of it.

T h e n y o u s t a r t d o i n g t h i n g s l ik e m a n a g e m e n t

in f o r m a ti o n s e r v ic e s o r e x e c u t iv e in f o r m a t io n s e r v ic e s w h e r e y o u s t a r t
d r a w i n g i n s ig h ts b u t a s y o u d o t h a t y o u d o i t w i t h i n t h e d a ta s e r v ic e s
e n v ir o n m e n t .
10

host the data.

S o y o u c o n ti n u e t o d o th a t .

S o w h e r e d o y o u a c t u a l ly

Yo u c a n h o s t i t i n w h a t p e o p le w i ll c a l l s e r v e r s o r t h e

m a in fr a m e th a t is t h e o n e w h ic h is r e a lly t h e fa t h e r o f d a ta c e n t r e s a n d
t h a t is w h e r e y o u – s o t h is w h o le t e n d e r i t w a s a d a ta s e r v i c e t o m a k e
s u r e th a t d a ta is c o r r e c t ly h o s t e d .

It can be accessed.

It c a n b e

c a p tu r e d . I t is s e c u r e d a n d i t i s a c t u a l ly c o r r e c t ly a u t h e n t ic a t e d . Yo u
d o n o t w a n t s o m e b o d y w h o i s n o t w o r k i n g fo r Tr a n s n e t t o c o m e a n d
a c c e s s t h e d a t a . S o th a t w h o le th i n g is d a ta s e r v ic e s b u t th e n t o m a k e
it m o r e u s e fu l y o u t h e n s t a r t c o n n e c ti n g a n d t h e n y o u s ta r t h a v i n g y o u r
n e t w o r k s e r v ic e s s o t h a t y o u c a n a c t u a ll y c o m m u n ic a t e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

I s i t t h e n c o r r e c t t h a t d a ta s e r v i c e s

a r e i n t e r d e p e n d e n t o n n e t w o r k s e r v ic e s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t h i n k th e y a r e i n t e r d e p e n d e n t

b e c a u s e – y e s i f – i f m a y b e – i f m a y b e y o u a r e ju s t w o r k in g a s a n
o r g a n i s a t io n in is o l a ti o n w h ic h d o e s n o t h a p p e n . Yo u c a n s a y w e ll I w i ll
ju s t c a p t u r e m y d a t a h e r e a n d th is is w h e r e I w i ll k e e p i t b u t fo r y o u t o
b e a b l e t h e n t o c o m m u n ic a t e w i t h w h o e v e r w h e r e v e r y o u a r e g o i n g to

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
n e e d n e t w o r k c a p a b i li ty t o b e a b le t o c o m m u n ic a te a n d t h a t n e tw o r k
C h a ir i t s t a r ts w h e r e I a m s i t t in g a s a u s e r i n a n o ffi c e a n d y o u w i ll fi n d
a l o t o f w ir e s r u n n in g a l l o v e r th e p l a c e a n d t h e y h i n g e i n t o w h a t t h e y
w i ll c a l l a n e tw o r k p o r t j u s t s o t h a t i t c a n t h e n s t a r t c o m m u n ic a t i n g . S o
t h e w h o le b u r d e n w i ll h a v e w h a t th e y c a ll a L o c a l A r e a N e t w o r k w h ic h
w i ll th e n c o n n e c t m e a n d y o u i n t h e s a m e b u il d in g t o m a k e s u r e th a t w e
c a n w o r k . S o m e ti m e s i t is p h y s ic a l w ir e s . S o m e ti m e s i t is W i- Fi - w h a t
p e o p l e c a l l W i - Fi – a n d t h a t w h o l e th in g m a k e s t h e w h o le s e r v i c e
c o m p le t e a n d y e s u s e f u l t o a n y o n e w h o w o u l d l ik e t o c o n s u m e t h e
10

s e r v ic e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y.

N o t t o o v e r s i m p li fy i t b u t

w o u ld y o u – th e i n t e r d e p e n d e n c y b e t w e e n a n e t w o r k s e r v ic e a n d a d a t a
s e r v ic e e s s e n t i a ll y w o u l d b e a l m o s t li k e w h a t is r e q u ir e d t o s e n d a
WhatsApp message.

Yo u w o u l d h a v e a h a r d w a r e w h ic h is y o u r

c e l l p h o n e . Yo u t h e n h a v e t h e n e tw o r k w h i c h is e i t h e r Vo d a c o m , C e l l C ,
M T N , Te lk o m a n d t h e n y o u w o u ld a c t u a ll y n e e d d a t a i n o r d e r t o t r a n s m i t
t h e m e s s a g e fr o m o n e e n d u s e r t o a n o t h e r.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

O k a y.

In that context paragraph 13

o f y o u r s t a te m e n t h i g h li g h ts t h a t t h i s p a r ti c u la r t e n d e r t h e n s o u g h t t o
d e a l w it h th e s e r v ic e s o u ts o u r c e d i n r e s p e c t o f t h e d a ta c e n tr e a n d
h o s ti n g s e r v ic e s , h e l p a n d s e r v i c e d e s k , c o ll a b o r a ti o n , e n d u s e r
c o m p u ti n g , d e s k t o p a n d s u p p o r t .

Yo u i n fo r m e d a t t h e s ta r t o f y o u r

e v i d e n c e t h a t y o u w a n te d t o a d d to th a t r e l a ti o n s h i p m a n a g e m e n t a n d
s e c u r i ty s e r v i c e s .

C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p a n d s p e c i fi c a lly o n r e la t io n s h i p

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
m a n a g e m e n t a n d s e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

T h a n k s C h a ir.

S o t h e s e r v ic e s

t h a t t h is t e n d e r w a s in t e n d e d fo r a r e a s o u t li n e d b y M s S e p te m b e r i n
t e r m s o f th o s e c a t e g o r ie s o f s e r v ic e .

Now if I were to add now the

r e l a ti o n s h i p m a n a g e m e n t b e c a u s e i t i s a h e a d p a r t y w h o i s p r o v i d i n g a
s e r v ic e to u s fi r s tl y.

S o t h e r e m u s t b e t h a t s o f t l a y e r w h e r e th e r e i s

s o m e b o d y m a n a g i n g th e r e l a ti o n s h i p b e t w e e n Tr a n s n e t a n d t h e s e r v ic e
p r o v i d e r. In t h is c a s e i t w o u l d b e Tr a n s n e t a n d T- Sy s te m s . Th e r e m u s t
b e t h a t p e r s o n w h o l o o k s a t t h a t b u t i t d i d n o t o n ly e n d – e n d th e r e . I t
10

a ls o

then

lo o k s

at

for

e x a m p le

management, vendor performance.

c o n tr a c t

m a n a g e m e n t,

vendor

S o m o n th ly f o r e x a m p l e y o u w i ll

h a v e s t a n d in g m e e t in g s th a t w il l l o o k a t t h e p r e v io u s m o n t h h o w w e
p e r f o r m e d . W a s t h e r e a n y w h e r e w h e r e w e a c t u a ll y m a y b e c o n tr a v e n e d
o r u n d e r a c h ie v e d a g a i n s t a s e r v ic e l e v e l a g r e e m e n t t h a t w o u l d h a v e
a c t u a ll y a g r e e d t o .

S o th a t w h o l e c o m p o n e n t i t is v e r y c r i t ic a l a n d –

a n d t h a t is w h a t w e w o u l d r e f e r t o a s r e l a t i o n s h i p m a n a g e m e n t .
S e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s is w h e r e o u r – I w a s t a lk i n g t o a u t h e n t ic a ti o n a n d
m a k i n g s u r e th a t d a t a o f Tr a n s n e t is a c t u a ll y s e c u r e d b u t a l s o w h e r e
y o u m a k e s u r e c o m p ly w i t h l e g is l a t i o n t h a t w il l a c tu a l ly t a lk t o s e c u r i ty
20

lik e f o r e x a m p l e y o u r – w h e n p e o p le ta l k a b o u t P O P I .

That – that

p a r t ic u l a r to w e r o r t h a t p a r tic u la r c a t e g o r y w i ll m a k e s u r e t h a t a s y o u
r u n t h e e n v ir o n m e n t y o u a c t u a ll y s e c u r e p e o p l e ’s p e r s o n a l in f o r m a ti o n
a s r e q u ir e d . S o t h o s e a r e t h e s e c u r i ty s e r v ic e s b u t a ls o j u s t t o p r o t e c t
a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t n o t e v e r y p e r s o n w il l g e t a c c e s s i n to t h e n e t w o r k o f
Tr a n s n e t .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W i t h i n t h e s ta b l e o f th e d i ff e r e n t

d iv is io n s o f Tr a n s n e t w a s t h e r e a n y p a r t o f Tr a n s n e t t h a t w o u l d n o t
u til is e d a t a s e r v ic e s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

A l l – a ll d iv is io n s w e r e a ll o w e d

t o a c t u a l ly u t il is e th e – th is p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r b u t f o r e x a m p l e i f y o u l o o k
a t TN PA b e c a u s e i t i s s o g o v e r n e d …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d T N PA s t a n d s f o r ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
A u t h o r i ty.
10

I t s t a n d s f o r Tr a n s n e t P o r t

Yo u a l m o s t g o t m e t h e r e .

S o Tr a n s n e t N a ti o n a l P o r t

A u t h o r i ty.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N a t io n a l P o r t A u th o r it y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a . S o b e c a u s e t h e y – t h e y a r e
g o v e r n e d a n d y o u k n o w t h e y w o u l d n o t – t h e y w o u l d s t il l k e e p s o m e o f
t h e ir a s s e t n o t n e c e s s a r i ly u s i n g t h i s p a r ti c u l a r t e n d e r d e p e n d in g o n
w h a t th e r e q u ir e m e n t w o u ld b e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

B u t e s s e n t ia ll y i t w a s f u n d a m e n ta ll y

…
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

Fu n d a m e n ta l a n d c r i t ic a l to t h e

o p e r a ti o n s o f Tr a n s n e t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

It was for all the operating

d iv is io n s o f Tr a n s n e t. T h e y c o u l d a ll u s e i t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t w a s th e e s ti m a t e d c o s t o f th is

t e n d e r fo r t h e p e r i o d o f fi v e y e a r s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O k a y. S o w h e n w e w e r e – w h e n

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
it w a s g o i n g o u t o n t e n d e r t h e e s t i m a t e d c o s ts w e r e b e t w e e n 1 .8 a n d
1 .9 b i ll io n i n te r ms o f t h e v a l u e o f th is t e n d e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Okay and how would you describe

t h e b a s e – th e b a s e c o s t i n g o f t h i s t e n d e r ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S o t h i s t e n d e r C h a ir is r e a ll y

b a s e d o n – o n c o n s u m p ti o n . S o w h i ls t y o u e s t i m a te i t to b e 1 . 9 b il li o n
d e p e n d in g o n t h e g r o w t h tr a je c t o r y t h a t y o u a c h i e v e y o u m i g h t e n d u p
b e i n g s o m e w h e r e e ls e b e c a u s e y o u a r e r e a ll y d r iv e n b y t h e v o l u m e s .
C h a ir y o u w i ll – y o u w ill n o t ic e s o m e w h e r e i t w il l t a l k t o t h e v o lu m e s
10

t h a t w e a c t u a l ly u s e d t o r u n th is t e n d e r a n d th e y w e r e fix e d b e c a u s e w e
did not want a changing variable there.

H o w e v e r t h is – I t h in k – i n

s h o r t w a s j u s t t o s a y i t w a s m o r e a v o l u m e b a s e d c o n tr a c t .

So the

m o r e w e c o n s u m e d t h e m o r e w e a r e g o in g t o s ta r t b e i n g c h a r g e d fo r i t
and so on.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t w a s a lr e a d y y o u r e v id e n c e t h a t

t h e r e w e r e s e v e n b id d e r s w h o h a d q u a li fi e d o n te c h n i c a l s t a n d a r d s a n d
t h e s e s e v e n b i d d e r s w e r e e v e n tu a lly s h o r tl is te d to t w o . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s .

S o w e – s o tw o w e r e

chosen …
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h o s e n , th a n k y o u .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: To g o , y e s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u f o r th e c o r r e c t io n .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
please?

C a n I a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 2 7

I n t h e m i d d l e o f th e p a g e i s a n e m a i l w h ic h i s d a t e d

Page 103 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
2 6 J u n e 2 0 1 6 s e n t a t 0 7 : 0 1 p m fr o m y o u r s e l f a n d t h e t h ir d p a r a g r a p h o f
t h a t p a r ti c u l a r e m a il f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s r e a d s – a p o lo g i e s th e s e c o n d
paragraph reads:
“ I j u s t h a d a c a l l fr o m M a r ti n a s k i n g m e w h e t h e r h e
c o u l d g o a h e a d a n d s i g n th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n to
s h o r tl is t t w o s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r s t o g o a h e a d t o t h e
d u e d il ig e n c e s t a t e .
r a th e r

have

us

I a d v is e d a g a i n s t i t .

s h o r t lis t

four

p r o v i d e r s f o r d u e d i li g e n c e .
10

or

fi v e

I w o u ld
s e r v ic e

I t is c o m p l e x .

It is

in v o lv e d , S O A s n e e d t o b e t ig h t e n e d u p a n d m a d e
fi t fo r p u r p o s e .

E x p e c t e d b e n e fi t s t o b e w e ll

a r ti c u la t e d e tc e t e r a . I t is n o t e v e r y o n e w h o c a n s e e
t h is th r o u g h t o t h e e n d . T h e m o r e t h e b e tt e r.
a r e la t e a lr e a d y.

We

W e m a y a s w e ll d o i t r i g h t .

S h o r tl is ti n g o n l y t w o n o w i n th e i n te r e s t o f ti m e is
lik e l y t o b u r n e v e n m o r e t i m e i n s t e a d .

L ik e I

m e n ti o n e d i n t h e G LT th is i s c r i ti c a l a n d c o r e t o o u r
o p e r a ti o n s .

I r e c o m m e n d t h a t w e s h o r t li s t f o u r o r

fi v e b i d d e r s to e n s u r e a n e a r p e r f e c t fi t . ”
20

D o y o u c o n f ir m t h a t t h i s is in f a c t t h e e m a i l t h a t y o u s e n t ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a i r i t i s t h e e m a i l I s e n t.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t w a s t h e tr ig g e r f o r y o u

s e n d i n g t h is e m a il ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

M a r t in w a s t h e e x e c u tiv e m a n a g e r in

m y o ffi c e a s a G r o u p C E O a n d I w a s tr a v e l li n g w h e n h e a c t u a l ly s e n t ,

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ju s t t o c o n f ir m t h a t h e c a n g o a h e a d a n d a p p r o v e t h a t w e s h o r t li s t tw o
b i d d e r s . S o I t h e n p e n n e d d o w n o n e m a i l b e c a u s e t h is h a s b e e n m y
b i g g e s t f e a r f a c t o r w h e n I j o i n e d Tr a n s n e t t o g e t t h i s r ig h t a n d I s a i d t o
h i m , n o n o t tw o c a n w e ju s t g o to f o u r b e c a u s e i n a n y c a s e w e h a v e
s e v e n w h o h a v e q u a l i fi e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y i f y o u c a n th e n t u r n o n e p a g e

f o r w a r d w h ic h is p a g e – s o r r y tw o p a g e s f o r w a r d w h ic h is p a g e 2 5 a t
t h e b o t t o m is – a t t h e b o t t o m i s a n e m a il d a t e d th e 3 0 t h o f J u n e 2 0 1 6
a t 8 h 1 2 a m fr o m G a r y P i ta w h o w r o t e , a n d it ’s a d d r e s s e d , “ H i S iy a
10

/ M a k a n o ” t h e fi r s t p a r t o f t h e e m a il a d d r e s s e s r e a s o n s a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r
– s o r r y r e a s o n s w h y t h e I T D a t a S e r v ic e s is r e c o m m e n d i n g s h o r tl is ti n g
a n d t h e n s p e c i f ic a l ly tw o r a n k b i d d e r s . I f I c a n a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e
2 6 , t h e la s t b u l le t f o r r e c o r d p u r p o s e s r e a d s ,
“ T h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n fo r a w a r d f o r I T D a t a S e r v ic e s h a s t o b e
t a b le d a t th e Tr a n s n e t le a d e r s h i p t e a m A D C a n d i n J u ly 2 0 1 6
a n d h a s t o b e a p p r o v e d b y t h e B o a r d a n d t h e r e ’s a tr a n s i t io n
p e r i o d o f s i x m o n t h s w h ic h i s r e q u i r e d a f t e r i s s u i n g t h e L O I ” .
T h e la s t s e n t e n c e a t t h a t p a g e r e a d s ,
“ D u e t o t h e t i m e c o n s tr a i n ts i t i s a ls o i m p r a c ti c a l to s h o r t lis t

20

a n d n e g o ti a te w i t h m o r e th a n tw o b i d d e r s , th e B o a r d h a s t i m e
a n d t i m e a g a i n a d v i s e d m a n a g e m e n t th a t n o e x te n s i o n s w i ll b e
considered.

T h i s i s f u r th e r s u p p o r te d d u e t o t h e N a ti o n a l

Tr e a s u r y i n s tr u c ti o n n o t e w h e r e w e w o u l d n e e d N T, p r e s u m a b ly
N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a p p r o v a l fo r a n y e x te n s io n w h ic h m a y ta k e
s o m e ti m e ” ,

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
W e th e n g o b a c k t o p a g e 2 5 , t h e e m a i l j u s t a b o v e t h e o n e t h a t
w a s a d d r e s s e d n o w is a n e m a i l fr o m M r S iy a b o n g a G a m a t o M r G a r y
P i ta a n d y o u w e r e in f a c t c o p i e d o n i t. W h a t w a s M r G a m a ’s a t ti t u d e t o
t h e s h o r t li s t i n g o f t h e t w o b i d d e r s a s c o m p a r e d to y o u r p r o p o s a l to
s h o r tl is t m o r e t h a n t w o ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

C h a ir w h e n I s u g g e s t e d th a t w e

s h o r tl is t a t le a s t m o r e t h a n tw o , M r G a m a c o u n t e r e d m e a n d s a id , l o o k ,
tr u s t t h a t is b i g , y o u k n o w, y o u a r e n e w h e r e y o u a r e n o t u s e d t o t h e s e
b i g o r g a n i s a t io n s w h o a c t u a ll y a w a r d a w h o l e l o t o f te n d e r s w i th h u g e
10

a m o u n ts t h is i s r e a l ly n o t h i n g m y g ir l, it ’s a s m a l l t e n d e r l e t ’s n o t w a s t e
ti m e l e t ’s ju s t m o v e w i t h i t

s h o r tl is ti n g f o u r p e o p l e is g o i n g t o w a s t e

o u r ti m e a n d w e ju s t w a n t t o g e t d o n e w i t h th is t e n d e r a n d o f c o u r s e
C h a ir I w a s n e w a n d p e r h a p s I w a s n ’ t u s e d to th e m a n y z e r o s b u t i t’s
n o t lik e I w a s c o n v in c e d b u t I h a d t o g o w i t h i t .
ADV

VERUSCHKA

SEPTEMBER:

And

when

you

mentioned

… ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h is w a s i n a m e e ti n g ?

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

Ye s w e w e r e t a l k i n g , I t h in k w e w e r e

t a lk in g o n t h e p h o n e , h e w a s t r y i n g t o e x p l a i n w h y h e w o u ld g o w it h th e
20

t w o b i d d e r s a f t e r I h a d r e s p o n d e d to h i m .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And in context was it said that the

t e n d e r w a s t h e n s m a ll a t a n a p p r o x i m a te v a l u e o f 1 . 8 5 b il li o n ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s s o h e w a s s a y in g 1 .8 5 b i ll io n is a

s m a ll t e n d e r i n th e in s t a n c e o f Tr a n s n e t b e c a u s e Tr a n s n e t is q u i te b i g .

Page 106 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t t h i s s t a g e w h o w e r e t h e t w o to p

b i d d e r s t h a t w e r e i n th e r u n n in g ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o a t t h i s s t a g e C h a ir i t w a s T-

S y s t e ms a n d U b u n t u b a s e d o n th e s e q u e n ti a l r a ti n g o f t h e b i d d e r s w h o
h a d q u a li fi e d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

What happened then on the 20th of

July 2016?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

S o C h a ir, U b u n t u t h e n h a d to w i th d r a w

b e c a u s e w h e n a t e n d e r h a s e x p i r e d , b e f o r e y o u c a n a c tu a l ly e x t e n d t h e
10

v a l i d i ty p e r i o d y o u h a v e t o g e t a p p r o v a l f r o m th o s e w h o w e r e b id d in g t o
s a y y e s , w e c a n e x t e n d a n d s ti ll k e e p t h e p r i c e f ix e d a t w h a t w e b i d
w i t h b u t U b u n t u , I t h in k , i t j u s t c a m e to li g h t t h a t t h e ir p a r t n e r c o u l d n ’ t
a c t u a ll y a c c e p t th a t w e s h o u ld k e e p t h e p r ic i n g a t th a t p o in t w h e r e th e y
h a d b i d a n d t h e y o p te d t o r a t h e r l e a v e t h e p r o c e s s b e c a u s e t h e y
c o u l d n ’ t k e e p a n d fi x t h e p r ic e s a t t h a t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

F o l lo w i n g U b u n t u ’s w i th d r a w a l d id

M r G a m a h a v e a n y c o m m u n ic a ti o n s w i t h y o u i n r e g a r d t o th a t ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

J a a n d M r G a m a C h a ir w a s b ig e n o u g h

t o s a y M a k a n o I th i n k y o u ’ ll s a y I to ld y o u s o b e c a u s e y o u d i d a d v i s e
20

m e t o h a v e m o r e t h a n t w o s h o r tl is te d n o w th e o n e h a s a c t u a ll y o p t e d
o u t o f t h e r a c e a n d I r e s p o n d e d a n d I s a id , lo o k i t ’s a l l g o o d i n t e n t io n s
y o u w e r e ju s t t r y i n g to m a k e s u r e t h a t th e p r o c e s s c a n b e a c c e l e r a t e d
f o r t h e b e n e f i t o f Tr a n s n e t s o i t ’s o k a y i t ’s a m is t a k e th a t w e a l l m a k e
s o m e t i m e s b u t p e r h a p s n e x t ti m e w h e n ( i n d is t in c t) w il l t a k e m e
s e r io u s ly b e c a u s e i t ’s m y a r e a o f e x p e r ti s e , w e l a u g h e d a b o u t i t .

Page 107 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d a f t e r U b u n tu

w i t h d r e w fr o m t h e p r o c e s s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o r r y w h e r e a b o u t in t h e s ta t e m e n t a r e w e n o w ?

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

S o a f t e r … ( i n te r v e n t io n ) .

W e ’r e o n p a g e e i g h t p a r a g r a p h 1 9 .

O k a y.

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

So after – so after Ubuntu withdrew

t h e n I t h i n k Mr G a m a g a v e a p p r o v a l to ta k e t h e n e x t b i d d e r i n t h e q u e
a n d t h e n e x t b i d d e r w a s a c t u a l ly G i ji m a s o th e y a c t u a l ly w a s th e n t h e
10

next second bidder who was being evaluated.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

S o th r e e m o n th s a f te r y o u s t a r t e d

a t Tr a n s n e t w h ic h w a s a b o u t S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 6 , y o u w e r e p r e s e n te d w i t h
a fil e , c a n y o u p le a s e e x p l a i n t o t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d a t t h a t
p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i n t i m e ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
procurement

and

a p p o in t m e n t

O k a y s o C h a ir, t h e p r o c e s s o f
of

service

providers

c o m p e te n c y a n d c o r e r e s p o n s i b il i ty o f p r o c u r e m e n t.

is

the

core

So Mr Edward

T h o m a s w h o w a s t h e n , w h e n I w a s i n Tr a n s n e t , G r o u p C h e f S tr a te g i c
O ff ic e r
20

GCSCO

brought

the

c o m p l e te

f il e

which

s u m m a r i s e d … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

J u s t t o c o r r e c t , G C S C O , is G r o u p

C h i e f S u p p l y C h a i n O ffi c e r, p l e a s e c o n ti n u e .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o C h a ir, Mr E d w a r d T h o m a s b r o u g h t

t h e fi le w h ic h w a s a c t u a l ly s u m m a r is i n g e v e r y t h in g t h a t h a s h a p p e n e d
in te r ms o f id e n ti fy in g a n d a p p o in t in g th e s u c c e s s fu l b id d e r i n t e r m s o f

Page 108 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t h is t e n d e r a n d t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n in t h e f il e w a s to a w a r d t o TS y s t e ms . S o I w e n t t h r o u g h th e fi le a n d y o u c a n i m a g in e i f y o u a r e n e w
y o u r e a l ly w a n t to r e a d e a c h a n d e v e r y p a g e a n d u n d e r s t a n d e x a c t ly
h o w w e e n d u p to it b e c a u s e I w a s g o in g t o a p p e n d my s i g n a t u r e t o i t ,
it w a s a c t u a ll y i n m y b u s i n e s s u n i t s o I w a s th e b u s i n e s s o w n e r s o I
h a d t o d o s o m e d u e d il ig e n c e a n d I w e n t t h r o u g h t h e fi le a n d I t h in k t h e
p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d th e s te p s th a t t h e y f o l lo w e d I c o u l d s e e t h a t
t h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly d o n e , h o w e v e r, w h a t a c t u a ll y j u s t s to o d o u t f o r m e
w a s h o w t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n w a s n o t t h e n m a tc h i n g th e f lo w o f e v e n ts
10

a s I w a s r e a d i n g , w h e r e I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d t h a t t h e n u m b e r o n e
w o u ld a c t u a l ly b e r e c o m m e n d e d t h e n I s a w t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n
a c t u a ll y g o i n g t o T- S y s t e ms .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W hen you mean number one,

n u m b e r o n e w a s th e o u tc o m e o f w h a t p a r t o f t h e p r o c e s s ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o C h a ir o n c e w e h a v e d o n e th e

t e c h n ic a l e v a l u a t i o n , th e th i n g s t h a t w e a l l s p o k e a b o u t t h e n th e r e i s a
p r o c e s s t h a t Tr a n s n e t w i ll c a l l b e s t a n d fi n a l o ff e r w h ic h i s t h e b u ff e r,
b u t w h e n y o u d o t h e b u ff e r y o u w o u l d h a v e c le a r e d e v e r y te c h n ic a l
r e q u ir e m e n t , y o u w o u l d h a v e l o o k e d a t i t , y o u w o u l d h a v e c l e a r e d t h e
20

r is k s a n d t h e n y o u s a y, I ’ m r e a ll y h a p p y t o g o w i t h t h i s t w o p e o p l e , c a n
y o u j u s t g iv e m e y o u r b e s t a n d f in a l o ff e r. G o a n d s h a r p e n y o u r p e n c i l ,
c r o s s y o u r T ’s d o t y o u r I’s , g i v e m e y o u r b e s t p r ic e .

S o a t t h a t ti m e

w h e n th e y c a m e b a c k w i th t h a t b u ffe r G a ji m a , th e w a s n u m b e r o n e i n
t e r m s o f t h e s c o r in g a n d C h a ir a s I w a s r e a d in g I w a s e x p e c ti n g t h a t

Page 109 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n

w il l

a c t u a lly

t a lk

to

Gajima

that

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s p o k e to T- S y s t e m s i n s t e a d .
CHAIRPERSON:

In o th e r w o r d s t h e r e p o r t t h a t y o u w e r e g o i n g

t h r o u g h t o w h ic h y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o a p p e n d y o u r s ig n a tu r e , t h e
r e a s o n s , t h e m o ti v a t io n o r t h e e v a l u a ti o n t h a t w a s e v i d e n t o n w h ic h i t
was based suggested that Gajima should be number one, is that what
y o u a r e s a y in g ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s , w h e n I w a s r e a d in g i t y e s .

B u t w h e n y o u c a m e t o t h e a c t u a l fi n d i n g , G a j i m a w a s

n o t a c t u a ll y n u m b e r o n e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

N o i t w a s n o t r e c o m m e n d e d it w a s til l

number one but it was not recommended.
CHAIRPERSON:

O h it w a s n u m b e r o n e b u t n o t r e c o m m e n d e d ?

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s i t w a s n ’ t .

Okay thank you.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

To a p p r e c ia t e t h e d i ff e r e n c e i n

n u m b e r o n e a n d n u m b e r t w o , w h a t w e r e t h e f in a l s c o r e s t h a t G a j i m a
s c o r e d a s c o m p a r e d to T- Sy s t e m s ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
20

S o C h a ir, I t h i n k w h e n I l o o k e d a t t h e

s c o r i n g , t e c h n ic a l, l e t m e s t a r t t h e r e i f I c a n , w h e n I l o o k e d a t t h e
t e c h n ic a l s c o r e t h e d i ffe r e n c e b e t w e e n T- S y s t e m s a n d G a ji m a , th e y h a d
a d i ffe r e n c e o f .3 3 p e r c e n t .

So they were there and there about

t e c h n ic a l ly b u t … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o th e y w e r e , f o r a l l in t e n t s a n d p u r p o s e s o n t h e

s a m e le v e l?

Page 110 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e y w e r e o n th e s a m e l e v e l.

O h o k a y.

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

But then when you start, of course,

s t a r t p u t ti n g in th e b u ff e r s a n d s o o n I t h i n k t h e y c a m e a n d s a i d –
G a j i m a th e n p r o v i d e d n o w, w e s a id t o th e m g i v e m e y o u r b u ffe r a n d
t h e n G a j i m a c a m e a n d p r o v i d e d a c h e a p e r b i d a n d t h e fi n a l s c o r e w a s
9 9 p e r c e n t a n d T- S y s t e m s t h e n d r o p p e d t o 8 5 p e r c e n t – 8 5 . 0 7 p e r c e n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o i t w a s n o t a n e g l ig i b l e d i ff e r e n c e

b e t w e e n th e t w o in p e r c e n t a g e s c o r i n g ?
10

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

O v e r a ll ?
Ye s .
N o b e c a u s e o f th e p r i c e , t h e w e ig h ti n g

o n t h e p r ic e a c tu a lly m a d e th e v a r i a n c e q u i t e b i g b u t w h e n y o u lo o k a t
t h e t e c h n ic a l c a p a b il it y t h e y w e r e q u i t e c l o s e .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Okay were you made aware of any

o th e r r e p o r t s t h a t w e r e t o b e c o n s id e r e d i n th e c o n t e x t o f t h is p r o c e s s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

S o i t w a s d u r i n g t h is p r o c e s s C h a ir

w h e n I s t a r t e d i n t e r r o g a t i n g t o s a y b u t l e t m e u n d e r s ta n d t h e n I w a s
m a d e a w a r e o f G a r tn e r w h ic h is a c o m p a n y i n Ir e l a n d , i t ’s b e s t k n o w n
20

f o r i t ’s a n a ly s t a n d r e s e a r c h c a p a b i li ti e s in t h e I T s p a c e .

So almost

e v e r y C I O w il l r e a d a G a r t n e r r e p o r t i f t h e y w a n t to a c t u a l ly u n d e r s t a n d
o r m a k e a d e c is i o n o f s o m e t e c h n ic a l n a t u r e o r ju s t h o w t o a p p r o a c h
s o m e t e c h n ic a l w o r k , s o it w a s a t t h is p o i n t t h e n I w a s m a d e a w a r e o f
t h e r e p o r t c o m p i l e d b y G a r t n e r w h e r e th e y w e r e o u tl in i n g s o m e r is k s in
t e r m s o f th is p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r.

Page 111 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I th e n a s k y o u t o tu r n to

A n n e x u r e 3 w h i c h is t h e G a r t n e r r e p o r t t h a t s ta r t s o n p a g e 4 1 b u t i n
p a r t ic u l a r

I ask you

to

go

to

page

49

of the

bundle.

Is i t

correct…(intervention).
CHAIRPERSON:

I’ m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t, ju s t g o b a c k to

e x p l a i n in g w h o G a r t n e r w e r e , h o w t h e y c a m e in t o t h i s h o w th e y c a m e
t o p la y s o m e r o le ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

T h a n k s C h a ir, s o G a r t n e r is a

r e s e a r c h h o u s e t h e r e s p e c i a l is e s m o s tly w i t h in f o r m a t io n t e c h n o lo g y
10

and

c o m m u n ic a ti o n s e r v ic e s .

So

they are

la r g e l y s e e n

to

be

in d e p e n d e n t a n d t h e y a r e u s e d u s u a l ly i n a n a d v is o r y r o l e b u t w h e n I
jo in e d

Tr a n s n e t

there

were

two

consultants

who

were

Gartner

c o n s u l t a n t s , t h e y h a v e b e e n t h e r e b e fo r e I jo i n e d a n d I r e a lis e d t h e y
w e r e t h e n m a d e a p a r t o f t h e t e n d e r e v a lu a ti o n p r o c e s s b u t I f u r t h e r
s t a r t e d u n d e r s t a n d in g th a t th e y a c t u a ll y p u t t h e t e n d e r s p e c i fi c a t io n s
t o g e th e r a s w e ll f o r Tr a n s n e t . W h ils t Tr a n s n e t h a d p u t t h e ir o w n s p e c s
t h e y c a m e i n a n d t h e y w r o te – b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e b r o u g h t i n j u s t t o
q u a li ty a s s u r e t h e s p e c i fic a ti o n s b u t th e r e p o r t d o e s s a y t h a t t h e y
a c t u a ll y
20

looked

at

it

and

they

s ta r t e d

a p p r o p r i a t e s p e c if ic a ti o n s I w o u l d i m a g i n e .

d e v e lo p in g

new

specs,

S o G a r tn e r is r e a ll y a

r e s e a r c h h o u s e i t ’s m a d e u p o f a n a ly s ts a n d v e r y e d u c a te d a n d
e x p e r i e n c e p e o p le w h o a c t u a ll y a d v is e o n I T w o r k .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o in t h is c o n t e x t , Tr a n s n e t w o u l d a s k t h e m f o r

a d v ic e , i n e ffe c t , a n d t h e n to lo o k a t t h e b i d s a n d a d v is e ?

Page 112 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

J a s o i n t h is c o n t e x t a c t u a lly Tr a n s n e t

u s e d t h e m f o r e v e r y t h i n g s o i t u s e d t h e m t o d e v e lo p t h e s p e c i fic a ti o n s ,
it u s e d t h e m t o e v a lu a te a n d t h e n it u s e d t h e m t o s u m m a r is e th e
o p e r a ti o n a l r i s k s t h a t t h e y p e r c e i v e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A t p a g e 4 9 o f t h is b u n d l e a p p e a r s

t w o d ia g r a m s , is i t c o r r e c t t h a t t h is p a r ti c u la r p a g e is a c t u a l ly a
s y n o p s is o f t h e fi n d i n g s o f G a r t n e r ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
10

Ye s b e c a u s e C h a ir, y o u ’l l s e e t h a t i t’s

a c t u a ll y w r i t t e n u n d e r – o n t h e i r l e t t e r h e a d a n d t h is i s th e – i t f o r m s
p a r t o f t h e G a r tn e r r e p o r t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n w e th e n lo o k a t t h e fi r s t

d i a g r a m o n t h e le f t h a n d s i d e th e o n e t h a t i s ti t le , r e fe r e n c e c h e c k ,
o k a y, c a n y o u p l e a s e e x p l a in t h is d i a g r a m t o t h e C h a ir ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o C h a ir t h i s is n o w – it ’s m a r k e d

t a b le 3 a n d t h e C F E T t e a m is n o w l o o k i n g a t T- S y s t e ms a n d G a ji m a s o
if y o u lo o k a t t h a t q u a d r a n t a t t h e b o t to m y o u h a v e th e lik e li h o o d o f
t h a t r is k h a p p e n in g t h a t i s o n y o u X a x is , s o i t s t a r ts w i t h r a r e , u n l ik e ly,
m o d e r a t e a n d t h e n o n t h e Y a x is y o u s e e t h e r is k i m p a c t o f t h a t
20

p a r t ic u l a r r is k , is i t l o w, i s i t m i n o r, i s i t m o d e r a t e , i s i t m a j o r a n d t h e n
w e s e e t h e tw o b u b b le s , o n e is b l u e a n d o n e i s g r e e n , t h e g r e e n o n e i s
f o r G a j i m a a n d t h e b l u e o n e is f o r T- S y s t e m s

s o o v e r a ll w h e n t h e y

w e r e d o i n g r e f e r e n c e c h e c k s T- S y s t e ms – b o t h T- S y s te m s a n d G a j i m a ,
t h e y k i n d o f c a m e n e x t t o e a c h o th e r s o th e y h a d s o m e k i n d o f a
m o d e r a t e t o a m a j o r k in d o f th a t r is k h a p p e n in g t o s a y th e r e f e r e n c e s

Page 113 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w e r e a t th a t p o in t b u t a l s o y o u w i ll s e e th a t i t w a s a c tu a lly a t th e
u n li k e ly p o i n t f o r b o t h o f t h e m , G a j i m a b e i n g o n t h e r i g h t m o v i n g
t o w a r d s m o d e r a te b u t t h e y ’r e b o th u n l ik e l y. S o t h a t is t h e r is k p r o fi l e o f
the reference checks that were done by the CFET team.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t e x a c t ly i s a r e fe r e n c e c h e c k ?

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
a c t u a lly,

p h y s i c a ll y,

you

go

A r e f e r e n c e c h e c k is w h e r e y o u
you

phone

th e

customers

or

the

c li e n t s … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h e r e th e y ’v e d o n e w o r k .

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

W h e r e th e y ’v e d o n e w o r k a n d

s o m e t i m e s y o u g o a n d s p e a k t o th e m o r y o u a c t u a l ly c a l l th e m o r y o u
a c t u a ll y c h e c k t h e w o r k t h a t t h e y w e r e d o in g s o th a t is w h a t w a s
a c t u a ll y h a p p e n i n g s o t h e y w e r e a l m o s t n e c k o n n e c k i f y o u l o o k a t
that.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If you look at the next – or rather

t h e d ia g r a m t o t h e r i g h t o f t h a t w h ic h is t il t e d , s i t e v i s i t , c a n y o u c l a r i fy
t h e a n a ly s is th a t h a s b e e n d o n e d i a g r a m m a tic a l ly t h e r e t o o p l e a s e ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o C h a ir t h e s a m e a p p li c a t io n c a n b e

le v i e d a g a i n s t t h is d ia g r a m w h i c h is o n th e r ig h t f o r b o t h T- S y s t e m s a n d
20

G a j i m a i n t e r m s o f d o i n g t h e s i t e v is i ts . S o w h e n y o u d o s i te v is i ts , I
c o m e a n d c h e c k , y o u s a i d y o u h a v e a h e l p d e s k , y e s c a n I to u g h i t,
t o u c h w o o d , is i t t h e r e , y e s , d o y o u h a v e p e o p le w h o a r e w o r k i n g o n t h e
h e l p d e s k , t h e h e l p d e s k a g e n ts , y e s I d o

have them, do you have

e n g in e e r s , h o w m a n y e n g i n e e r s d o y o u h a v e s o I a c t u a ll y d o

due

d i li g e n c e c h e c k o f w h a t y o u d o s o t h a t i s p a r t o f t h a t s i t e v is i t a n d

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C h a ir y o u w il l s e e t h a t b o t h o f t h e m a r e s t il l o n t h e l e f t s i d e o f t h e
q u a d r a n t w h ic h is , y o u k n o w, m o d e r a t e a n d m o d e r a te t o r a r e a n d
m o d e r a t e to lo w.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h e n la s tly, t h e – a t t h e b o t t o m

o f t h e s e c o n d b l o c k b e l o w u n d e r G a ji m a , r e f e r e n c e is m a d e to
tr a n s i t io n a n d t h e t i m e p e r i o d in w h i c h t o tr a n s i t io n , d o y o u h a v e a n y
c o m m e n t s i n r e la t io n t o t h e c o m m e n t s m a d e t h e r e ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

C a n y o u r e a d t h e s t a te m e n t y o u a r e

t a lk in g t o ?
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O k a y ju s t f o r c la r i ty, th e b o t t o m

part reads,
“ T h e e x te n s iv e tr a n s i t io n s c o p e t o b e c o m p l e te d i n s ix m o n t h s
a s p u t f o r w a r d i n t h e s u b m i t te d t r a n s i ti o n d o c u m e n t fa ll s s h o r t
o f th e r e q u ir e m e n t w h ic h is a m a j o r r is k t o g e t t in g t o fi n a l
m o d e o f o p e r a t io n i n a n a c c e p t a b le p e r i o d s u c h th a t Tr a n s n e t
g e t s t h e b e n e fi t o f t h e s e r v ic e s a n d a s s o c ia t e d s e r v ic e l e v e l s
a s d e fi n e d in th e te c h n i c a l s e r v i c e t o w e r s .

Experience with

t h is is t h a t th is r e q u ir e s f o c u s e d p r o j e c ts d u r i n g b u s i n e s s a s
u s u a l th a t r e q u i r e r e s o u r c e s fr o m b o t h p a r ti e s a n d is c o s tl y.
20

M o r e o v e r, Tr a n s n e t w il l b e p a y i n g f o r F M O s e r v ic e s /s c o p e a n d
S L A’s p r io r t o r e a c h i n g F M O ” ,
D o y o u h a v e a n y c o m m e n t to t h a t ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s I d o C h a ir, e a r li e r o n I m e n ti o n e d

t h a t th is w a s a G r e e n F ie l d s c o n tr a c t s o f o r e q u i ty a n d f o r f a ir n e s s t o
in tr o d u c e t h is tr a n s i t io n p e r i o d o f s i x m o n t h s a n d s ta r t t h i n k i n g t h a t i f

Page 115 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
y o u d o n ’ t g o t o fi n a l m o d e o f o p e r a ti o n i n s ix m o n t h s is g o i n g t o b e
r is k y to Tr a n s n e t I f o u n d it ir r e le v a n t C h a ir a n d t h a t is w h y I w a s s a y i n g
s o m e o f t h e r is k s , I fo u n d t h e m i m m a t e r i a l a n d ir r e le v a n t b e c a u s e a t
t h is p o i n t a n y n e w b i d d e r w i ll h a v e to a c t u a ll y fir s t t a k e o v e r a n d
tr a n s i t io n fr o m t h e c u r r e n t b i d d e r to c u r r e n t m o d e o f o p e r a t i o n b e fo r e
t h e y c a n s t a r t o p t i m is in g a n d m a k i n g s u r e t h a t th e y c a n n o w s t a r t
w o r k i n g in a f u t u r is ti c f a s h i o n . S o th a t p a r ti c u la r c o m m e n t , f o r m e , w a s
a li t tl e b it n o t p o s it i o n e d c o r r e c t ly o r i t w a s a c t u a l ly r e le v a n t b e c a u s e
e v e r y o n e w a s s ta r t i n g a s a G r e e n F i e l d s o w e c a n ’ t b e b r i n g in g i t n o w
10

at this point.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i t w a s a fa c to r t h a t w a s i n c o n s is t e n t w it h t h e r o l e

t h a t th e a d j u d ic a ti o n w o u l d b e b a s e d o n th e G r e e n Fi e l d p r i n c i p l e .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

B e c a u s e n o w y o u ’r e b r i n g i n g t h a t .

S o o n e w o u l d w a n t a ju s t i fic a ti o n fo r i t t o s a y, b u t

t h a t ’s i n b r e a c h o f t h e G r e e n F i e l d p r in c i p le a s i t w e r e s o w h y a r e y o u
bringing it in?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

A n d I t a k e i t i t ’s s o m e th in g y o u d id r a is e a n d y o u

w i ll d e a l w it h t h a t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

I t h i n k t h a t is o n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t

w a s a c t u a ll y c r e a ti n g s u c h a t u r m o il i n m y mi n d t o s a y b u t t h i s t h i n g i s
n o t m a k i n g lo g ic .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W e r e a n y o f t h e s e r i s k s i n r e la t io n

Page 116 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
– a s i d e n ti f ie d i n th is r e p o r t n e w ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

T h e r i s k s a s i d e n t i fi e d , in m y v i e w,

w e r e n o t n e w, a ll o f th e m .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Can I then ask you to turn to the

b u n d l e , t h e l i tt l e b u n d l e n e x t t o y o u b y Mr Vo l m i n k w h ic h i s m a r k e d p a r t
o f E x h ib i t B B 2 . 1 c a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 7 0 5 , f o r t h e r e c o r d C h a ir
paragraph

1 4 .3

d e a ls

w it h

q u o t a t i o n / C I D B q u o t a ti o n

the

procedure

q u o t a ti o n
and

system,

t h a t ’s

on

request
page

for

702, in

p a r t ic u l a r o n p a g e 7 0 5 p a r a g r a p h 1 4 .3 . 9 t a lk s to p r o c e s s a n d m o r e
10

s p e c i f ic a l ly p a r a g r a p h D r e a d s ,
“ A s a g e n e r a l r u l e q u o t a ti o n s a r e t o b e e v a l u a t e d o n t h e b a s is
o f p r i c e a n d B B B E E w h e r e th e r e a r e o p p o r tu n it i e s t o i n c l u d e
S D e it h e r a s a n o b j e c t iv e c r i te r i o n a t h r e s h o l d o r p r e q u a li fi c a t io n c r i t e r io n S D , s u p p li e r d e v e lo p m e n t s h o u l d a l s o b e
in c l u d e d i n t h e b i d .

In t h e e v e n t t h a t t e c h n ic a l e v a lu a ti o n is

a ls o n e c e s s a r y t h e t e c h n ic a l e v a l u a ti o n c r it e r i a m u s t b e p r e d e t e r m i n e d a n d in c l u d e d i n th e R F Q d o c u m e n t .

I m p o r t a n t ly,

t h a t ’s m y e m p h a s i s , th e h i g h e s t s c o r i n g b id d e r is t o b e
s e l e c t e d a s t h e s u c c e s s f u l b i d d e r u n l e s s t h e r e is o b je c t iv e
20

c r i t e r i a j u s t i fy p r e s u m a b ly t o ju s ti fy t h e a w a r d t o a n o th e r
bidder”.
I f I c a n t h e n a s k y o u to tu r n t o p a g e 7 8 3 p le a s e o f t h e s a m e
b u n d l e . C h a ir fo r th e r e c o r d t h is f a ll s – p a r a g r a p h 1 8 . 7 d e a l s
w i t h … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u s a i d 7 8 3 h e y ?

Page 117 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

C o r r e c t C h a ir, p a r a g r a p h 1 8 . 7 d e a ls

w i t h r e c o m m e n d a t io n s a n d in p a r tic u l a r o n p a g e … ( i n te r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t 1 8 . 7 . 2 o h i t ’s a ll r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s fr o m

e a r l ie r ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

C o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s o k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o a t p a r a g r a p h – a s C h a ir h a s

p o i n t e d o u t p a r a g r a p h 1 8 . 7 . 2 ta lk s t o t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n to t h e A C ,
and
10

in

p a r tic u la r

paragraph

18.7.3

d e a ls

with

reasons

for

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n m o r e s p e c if ic a l ly s u b - p a r a g r a p h B r e a d s t h a t ,
“ T h e b i d w i t h t h e h i g h e s t s c o r e m u s t b e s e l e c t e d u n l e s s th e r e
a r e s u b j e c ti v e c r it e r ia o t h e r t h a n t h e c r it e r ia u s e d t o e v a l u a t e
t h e b i d th a t j u s ti f y t h e a w a r d t o a n o t h e r b i d d e r, th is d is c r e t io n
m u s t b e e x e r c is e d s p a r in g l y. E x a m p l e s w h ic h w o u l d j u s t i fy t h e
a w a r d to a b i d d e r o t h e r t h a n th e h i g h e s t r a n k e d b i d d e r
in c l u d e s t h e f o l l o w in g , a n d j u s t b y w a y o f a n e x a m p l e
r e fe r e n c e is m a d e to s u p p l ie r d e v e lo p m e n t w h ic h is e n v is a g e d
a s a n o b j e c t iv e c r i te r i o n , r is k a s s e s s m e n t w h ic h i n d i c a t e s t h a t
t h e r e ’s m a t e r ia l r i s k i n v o lv e d in a w a r d i n g th e b u s i n e s s t o th e

20

h i g h e s t r a n k e d b id d e r a n d s o f o r t h ” ,
B e lo w th e b u ll e ts o n p a g e 7 8 4 fo r t h e r e c o r d i t r e a d s ,
“ t h a t i f a b i d o t h e r th a n t h e b i d w i t h th e o v e r a l l h i g h e s t s c o r e
is s e l e c te d th e r e c o m m e n d i n g c o m m i t t e e s h a ll p r o v i d e a fu ll
e x p l a n a t io n f o r t h i s d e c is i o n a n d s t a te w h ic h o b je c t iv e c r i t e r i a
a r e r e l i e d u p o n to j u s t if y t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n o f s u c h b id a s a

Page 118 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
general rule where the overall highest scoring bidder is
o v e r l o o k e d b a s e d o n o b j e c t iv e c r i t e r ia t h e s e c o n d r a n k e d
bidder

must

be

considered

for

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n

t h e r e a f te r ” ,
A n d fo r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e ti o n C h a ir, o n p a g e 7 8 8 o f th e s a m e
b u n d l e w h ic h a d d r e s s e s b i d d e r a d ju d ic a t i o n p a r a g r a p h 2 0 .2 w h ic h ta lk s
t o t h e r o l e o f t h e A C d u r i n g a d j u d ic a ti o n , b e l o w t h e f ir s t p a r a g r a p h i t
reads,
“ F a c t o r s to b e c o n s i d e r e d d u r in g a d j u d i c a t io n i n c l u d e w h e t h e r,
10

a n d m o r e s p e c i fi c a ll y a t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 . 2 . 6 , t h e r e c o m m e n d e d
b i d d e r s c o r e d t h e h ig h e s t p o in t s o v e r a ll , i f n o t w h e t h e r t h e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o a w a r d t h e c o n t r a c t t o a n o th e r b i d d e r is
b a s e d o n o th e r o b j e c ti v e c r i t e r i a ” ,
M s M o s id i th e r is k t h a t w e r e i d e n t if i e d in t h e G a r t n e r r e p o r t d i d
t h e y c o n s t i tu t e o b je c t iv e c r it e r i a i n y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g a n d e x p e r ie n c e ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o C h a ir th e y d id n o t c o n s t it u t e

o b j e c ti v e c r it e r ia i n my u n d e r s t a n d i n g , t h e P P P w h ic h is t h e p r e fe r r e d
p r o c u r e m e n t p o l ic y o f Tr a n s n e t .

i t s ta t e s c l e a r ly w h a t a n o b j e c t iv e

c r i t e r i a s h o u ld b e a n d i t’s t h o s e t h in g s th a t m u s t a c tu a lly r e m a i n
20

o b j e c ti v e b e c a u s e w h e n y o u e v a l u a te a te n d e r r ig h t fr o m th e b e g in n i n g ,
y o u h a v e p r e - d e t e r m in e d e v a l u a ti o n c r i te r ia t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g to u s e ,
y o u c a n n o t t h e n u s e th a t p r e - e v a l u a t io n c r it e r i a a g a i n a n d a p p l y i t a s
a n o b j e c t iv e c r it e r ia . S o t h e te c h n i c a l r is k s t h a t w e r e r a i s e d t h e y w e r e
a c t u a ll y t a l k i n g t o th e p r e - a d ju d i c a t io n c r i t e r i a b u t w h e n y o u l o o k a t th e
P P P f o r e x a m p l e i t g i v e s u s r e a l e x a m p l e s o f w h a t a n o b j e c t iv e c r it e r i a

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w i ll b e , fo r e x a m p le w h i ls t a t th e e n d o f t h e p r o c e s s a c o m p a n y is n o w
g o i n g i n s o lv e n t, t h a t’s r e a s o n e n o u g h th e r e ’s n o t h i n g y o u c a n d o a b o u t
it o r i f m a y b e i t a p p l i e s fo r b u s in e s s r e s c u e y o u a r e a c t u a l ly …
I t s ta t e s c l e a r ly w h a t a n o b je c t iv e c r i te r i a s h o u ld b e a n d i t i s t h o s e
t h i n g s t h a t m u s t a c tu a l ly r e m a in o b j e c ti v e . B e c a u s e w h e n y o u e v a lu a t e
a t e n d e r r i g h t fr o m th e b e g i n n i n g y o u h a v e p r e - d e te r m i n e d e v a l u a t i o n
c r i t e r i a t h a t y o u a r e g o in g t o u s e .

Yo u c a n n o t t h e n u s e t h a t p r e -

e v a l u a t i o n c r i t e r i a a g a in a n d a p p ly i t a s a n o b j e c t iv e c r i t e r ia .

So the

t e c h n ic a l r is k s t h a t w e r e r a is e d t h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly ta lk in g to t h e p r e 10

a d j u d ic a ti o n c r i t e r ia b u t w h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e P P P f o r e x a m p le it g i v e s
u s r e a l e x a m p l e s o f w h a t a n o b je c tiv e c r it e r i a w i ll b e .

Fo r e x a m p l e

w h il s t a t t h e e n d o f t h e p r o c e s s a c o m p a n y ’s is n o w g o in g i n s o l v e n t
t h a t i s r e a s o n e n o u g h t h e r e is n o th i n g t h a t w e c a n d o a b o u t i t.

Or if

m a y b e i f i t a p p l i e s fo r b u s i n e s s r e s c u e y o u a r e a c t u a l ly – j a a s a
r e s p o n s i b l e p e r s o n y o u w il l h a v e t o a c t u a ll y l o o k a t i t a n d s a y w e
c a n n o t a c tu a l ly g i v e t h e m t h is .

O r f o r e x a m p l e tr e a s u r y i t d o e s l is t

t h o s e c o m p a n i e s t h a t g e t li s t e d a s n o t q u a l if y i n g t o b id f o r g o v e r n m e n t
business.

I f y o u s u d d e n l y a p p e a r o n t h a t l is t i t is o b je c t iv e .

W e w i ll

h a v e t o a p p ly t h a t b u t n o t i n t e r m s o f t h e r i s k s t h a t h a v e b e e n
20

a r ti c u la t e d i n t h i s o n e .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

Just for record purposes you refer to

P P P d o y o u p e r h a p s m e a n P P M w h ic h is t h e P r o c u r e m e n t Pr o c e d u r e s
M a n u a l t h a t is t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t w e h a v e j u s t r e f e r r e d to ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : Ye s C h a ir I t h i n k i t i s t h e P P M
t h e r e a r e j u s t t o o m a n y a c r o n y ms . J a .

Page 120 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . W e r e y o u t h e n c a ll e d w e
g o i n g b a c k n o w t o p a g e 9 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t y o u m e n t io n e d t h a t I

think you said the PPM.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s i t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o n ta in s e x a c tly w h a t i t i s t h a t w o u l d m a k e a c r i t e r io n
o b j e c ti v e o r w h a t e v e r b u t y o u d id n o t d e a l w i t h w h a t th o s e a r e t o th e
e x t e n t th a t t h e y a r e r e l e v a n t t o y o u r a n s w e r t h a t h e r e t h e s e r is k s w e r e
n o t o b j e c t iv e . D o y o u w a n t t o j u s t s a y b e c a u s e t h is w a s m i s s i n g , th is
10

w a s m is s i n g , th is w a s m is s in g , t h a t i s t h e r e fo r e t h e y f e l l o u ts i d e o f t h e
d e f in i ti o n o f o b je c tiv e th a t y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : O k a y. S o C h a ir a ll t h e r i s k s t h a t
w e r e a c t u a ll y a r t ic u l a t e d a n d p r e s e n t e d t h e y a l l s p o k e t o t h e t e c h n i c a l
c a p a b il it y, t h e a b i li ty t o t r a n s i ti o n , t h e p r o j e c t s c o p e a n d j u s t w h a t i t
w i ll m e a n i n te r ms o f c o n v e n e – c a n c e l la t io n o f t h e c o n t r a c t f o r
c o n v e n i e n c e . F o r e x a m p l e w h e r e Tr a n s n e t is s a y i n g i f w e c a n c e l o u t o f
c o n v e n i e n c e h o w m u c h w i ll – f o r m e t h a t is n o t a r is k i t is n o t o b j e c t iv e .
R i g h t . S o t h o s e w e r e t h e r i s k s t h a t w e r e a c t u a ll y a r t ic u l a t e d . B u t w h e n
y o u lo o k a t w h a t P P M a d v i s e s a n d c o u n s e l s i t g iv e s u s e x a m p le s w h ic h

20

I think as you start reading them you understand when they say
o b j e c ti v e .

F o r e x a m p l e is o n e o f th e s e c o m p a n i e s a c t u a ll y g o i n g

in s o lv e n t , n o t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g l ik e t h a t .

Is o n e o f t h e m a c t u a l ly

m e n ti o n e d i n t h e tr e a s u r y lis t o f b l a c k lis ti n g ?
lik e t h a t .

N o th e r e w a s n o t h i n g

Wa s t h e r e a n y o f th e c o m p a n ie s a c t u a ll y a p p ly i n g fo r

business rescue?

None of the companies was doing that.

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Wa s i t

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
a c t u a ll y f o u n d a t f a u l t b y th e c o m p e ti ti o n c o m m i s s io n fo r e x a m p l e – s o
t h e y g i v e t h o s e e x a m p l e s t h a t a r e n o t r e a l ly p e r t a i n i n g t o th e
o p e r a ti o n a l a s p e c t o f t h e t e n d e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h o s e a r e o b j e c ti v e c r i t e r i a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

A n d a l l th e r is k s th a t w e r e

m e n ti o n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : T h e y w e r e n o t a c tu a l ly t a l k i n g to
that.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : S o M s M o s id i y o u w e r e p r e s e n t e d w i th
t h is fi l e , y o u h a d r a is e d – y o u h a d c e r t a i n c o n c e r n s a b o u t th is fi le t h a t
w a s g iv e n to y o u b y M r Th o m a s i n r e la t i o n t o t h i s te n d e r.

Were you

t h e n c a l le d to a m e e ti n g d u r i n g S e p t e m b e r o f 2 0 1 6 i n r e l a ti o n t o t h e
a d j u d i – t o c o n s i d e r a t io n o f t h i s t e n d e r ? W e a r e n o w o n p a g e 9 o f y o u r
s t a te m e n t .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
20

Ye s j u s t s o – h e r e a m I w i t h a

fi le . I a m n o t a b l e to a g r e e w i th th is fi le a n d i t n e e d t o p r o g r e s s to t h e
n e x t s ta g e . O k a y s o t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n is n o t in li n e w i t h w h a t I w a s
e x p e c ti n g it t o b e . S o t h e n th e r e w a s a m e e ti n g t h a t w a s – a c t u a l ly I
w a s c a ll e d in t o a m e e t in g i n to – th e r e is a b o a r d r o o m t h a t I u s e d t o u s e
a s a g r o u p C I O a n d th e r e w a s a m e e ti n g t h e r e . A l o t o f p e o p l e w e r e i n
t h e r e . S o m e o f t h e ir n a m e s is – I h a v e m e n t io n e d t h e r e C h a ir in t e r m s

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
o f t h e i n d i v i d u a ls w h o w e r e in th e m e e t i n g a n d m o s t o f t h e m – o k a y t w o
o f th e m w e r e fr o m p r o c u r e m e n t a n d th e n th e r e w a s a g u y w h o w a s
c o m i n g fr o m g o v e r n a n c e w h e r e t h e y w e r e a c tu a l ly tr y in g to m a k e s u r e
t h a t I g e t – I g e t t o s i g n t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n .

So they were giving

c la r i ty. C h a ir I w il l k e e p o n s a y in g b e c a u s e I w a s n e w a n d y e s I w a s
s t il l n e w a n d s t il l tr y i n g t o a c tu a l ly k n o w t h e i n d iv id u a l s a n d t h e ir
p e r s o n a l i ti e s y e s s o I w a s a s k in g o k a y t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n is n o t i n
li n e w i t h t h e o u tc o m e o f t h e e v a l u a ti o n w h a t is m y r o l e , w h y d o I h a v e
t o s ig n b e c a u s e I a c t u a l ly d i s a g r e e w i t h i t?
10

A n d I r e m e m b e r q u i te

c le a r ly t h a t M r M a l u l e k e w a s s a y in g lo o k y o u a s a G r o u p C I O y o u h a v e
a p p o i n t e d t h e c r o s s - f u n c ti o n a l e v a l u a t io n te a m .

They represent you.

T h e y h a v e r e c o m m e n d e d t h e w a y t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n is s ta n d i n g . S o I
– I e v e n a s k e d – s o m y jo b i s j u s t t o s ig n t h is t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h o w a s M r M a lu le k e l e t u s u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: M r M a lu l e k e w a s o n e o f …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n th e s c h e m e o f t h i n g s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

W a s – j a h e w a s t h e c o n tr a c t

m a n a g e r fr o m p r o c u r e m e n t f o r th is p a r t ic u l a r c o n tr a c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y a lr ig h t .
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o h e w a s r e a ll y t h e o v e r s e e r i n
t e r m s o f a ll t h o s e w h o w e r e e v a lu a ti n g .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d i f I c o u l d ju s t i n t e r r u p t y o u . T h e
f u ll n a m e fo r M r M a l u le k e is ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : I s M a c D o n a l d – I t is M a c D o n a l d
M a lu l e k e .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h o e ls e w a s p r e s e n t a t t h is

m e e ti n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : T h e r e w a s M r P h e la d i X a b a w h o
w a s a ls o w o r k i n g w it h M r M a c D o n a l d M a l u l e k e .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay now I may have missed something. There was a
m e e ti n g – w a s it i n a m e e t in g w i t h o t h e r p e o p le w h e r e M r M a lu l e k e w a s
s a y in g t h is t o y o u ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th e p e o p l e th a t w e r e a t t e n d i n g t h e m e e ti n g
10

w e r e a l l th e p e o p l e c o n c e r n e d w i th t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n a n d th is
tender?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ja.

S o t h e p e o p le w h o w e r e

a tt e n d i n g w e r e a l l p e o p l e w h o w e r e a c t u a l ly in v o lv e d i n o n e w a y o r t h e
o th e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W i t h t h is p a r t ic u l a r te n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

F o r e x a m p le y o u w i ll h a v e M r

M a lu l e k e w h o w a s t h e c o n tr a c t m a n a g e r.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : Yo u w i ll h a v e M s X a b a w h o w a s
a ls o a s tr a te g i c s o u r c i n g p e r s o n w h o w a s w o r k i n g w i t h M r M a l u l e k e o n
t h is p a r tic u la r t e n d e r. A n d t h e n t h e r e w o u l d b e M r T h u l a j n i M t s h w e n e
w h o w a s fr o m g o v e r n a n c e . Yo u r e m e m b e r I w a s ta lk i n g a b o u t th e h i g h
v a l u e t e n d e r a n d t h e r e p o r t th a t m u s t a c tu a l ly g o w i t h a n d t h e n w a s – I

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t h i n k t h e r e w a s M a r t i n w h o w a s a c tu a ll y i n my o ff ic e .

Mr M a r ti n

S e h l a p e l o w h o w a s a c t u a l ly – s o i t w a s a c o l l e c ti o n o f p e o p l e w h o w e r e
tr y i n g to c o n c lu d e t h e – th is p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r b y a c t u a l ly s e c u r i n g a
s ig n a tu r e fr o m a G r o u p C I O b e c a u s e I w a s th e b u s i n e s s o w n e r o f t h e
t e n d e r.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : D i d t h e s e p e o p l e c o n s ti t u t e a t e a m ? A
p r o – o r r a th e r w e r e t h e y in v o lv e d i n a n y f a s h i o n a s t h e – a s m e m b e r s
o f t h e c r o s s - f u n c ti o n a l e v a l u a t io n te a m ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:
10

member

c r o s s - fu n c t io n a l

u n d e r s t a n d in g .

In that meeting there was no

evaluation

te a m

according

to

my

M r X a b a w a s t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s p u t ti n g th e

d o c u m e n ts t o g e t h e r a n d m a k in g s u r e t h a t y o u k n o w th e w r it i n g o f t h e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n is d o n e p r o p e r ly a n d s o o n .

M r M a lu l e k e w a s th e

overseer in terms of the whole procurem ent process.

I am not sure

C h a ir i f I c a n s a y w h o w a s t h e c h a ir m a n o f t h a t C F E T b u t h e w a s
a c t u a ll y t h e o n e w h o w a s o v e r s e e i n g t h e w h o le p r o c e s s t o m a k e s u r e
that it draws to a conclusion.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t i s u n d e r s to o d t h a t Mr M a c D o n a ld

M a lu l e k e w a s i n f a c t t h e c h a ir o f t h e C F E T.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W e r e t h e p e o p l e w h o w e r e a t te n d i n g t h a t

m e e ti n g p e o p l e fr o m w it h in y o u r d e p a r t m e n t?

In other words under

y o u r s e c ti o n , y o u r u n i t o r w e r e th e y p e o p l e fr o m o u ts i d e y o u r
d e p a r t m e n t?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

S o C h a ir m y r e c o l le c ti o n I j u s t

remembered that there was one person from my department who was

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M r M a r t i n S e h l a p e l o h e w a s t h e e x e c u ti v e m a n a g e r in th e o ff ic e o f t h e
G r o u p C h i e f I n f o r m a ti o n O ffic e r in m y o ffic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: H e w a s i n t h a t m e e t in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

Can I – can I ask you then what

e x a c tl y w a s r e q u ir e d o f y o u a t t h is m e e t i n g ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

S o a t t h is m e e t in g C h a i r t h e r e

w a s a m e m o r a n d u m w h ic h w a s p r e p a r e d .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u c a ll e d th e m e e ti n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Yo u d i d n o t c a l l t h e m e e ti n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

N o I d i d n o t c a l l t h e m e e ti n g

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o c a l le d th e m e e ti n g i f y o u c a n r e c a l l?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : I f I c a n r e c a l l C h a ir M r M a lu le k e
c a l l e d t h e m e e ti n g b e c a u s e n o w I a m – I h a d t h e fi l e .

I did not sign

a n d t h e y h a d t o e x p l a in t o m e c e r t a i n t h i n g s s o t h a t I c a n c o m f o r ta b ly
s ig n i f I h a v e t o s i g n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y y o u h a d c o m m u n i c a t e d t o s o m e o f t h e p e o p le

y o u r u n e a s i n e s s o r r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t s i g n in g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

To b e d ir e c t C h a ir y e s I h a d a

n u m b e r o f q u e s ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d a s a r e s u l t o f t h a t a m e e t i n g w a s c a l le d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s t h e m e e ti n g w a s c o n v e n e d

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d n o w w e a r e a t th e m e e t in g .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

N o w w e a r e a t t h e m e e t in g

C h a ir.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 2 9
please of the same bundle?

It appears to be a memorandum from Mr

G a r r y P i t a , y o u r s e l f a n d Mr E d w a r d T h o m a s t o Mr S i y a b o n g a G a m a .
A n d t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e c o m m is s i o n – o f t h e s u b m is s i o n s o r r y a t
p a r a g r a p h 1 o f t h i s d o c u m e n t is t o r e q u e s t t h e G r o u p C h ie f E x e c u ti v e
10

t o a m o n g s t o t h e r th in g s a p p r o v e t h e a w a r d o f b u s i n e s s t o T- S y s t e ms
S A P t y L t d . C a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 3 9 o f th e s a m e b u n d le ? I t
a p p e a r s to b e s ig n e d b y m a n y p e r s o n s o t h e r t h a n M r S iy a b o n g a G a m a
a n d M r G a r r y P i ta . D o y o u r e c o g n i s e t h i s d o c u m e n t M s M o s id i?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir I r e c o g n is e th e d o c u m e n t .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s t h i s i n f a c t th e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t

w a s p r e s e n te d t o y o u a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir i t w a s t h e m e m o r a n d u m

t h a t w a s p r e s e n te d .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: So despite …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d . W h a t y o u h a d r e a d b e fo r e t h e
m e e ti n g th a t y o u w e r e u n e a s y a b o u t s i g n in g w a s a r e p o r t , i t w a s n o t
t h is ? It w a s n o t th is m e m o r a n d u m ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

No so this memorandum was

b r o u g h t i n i n t h a t m e e t in g .
CHAIRPERSON:

A t t h a t m e e ti n g ?

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s fo r m e t o s ig n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w w h a t y o u h a d r e a d b e fo r e …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Was it a report?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t w a s a w h o l e f il e y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a – o h a w h o l e f il e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a , ja .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t w i t h t h e d o c u m e n t w h e r e if y o u a g r e e d y o u w o u l d
s ig n ?
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t b u t t h is m e m o r a n d u m w a s p r e s e n t e d t o

y o u a t th a t m e e ti n g ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

S o – y e s . S o C h a ir b e c a u s e I

h a d s o m e q u e s ti o n s a n d q u e r i e s a n d th a t I w a n t e d t o c l e a r I h a d n o t
s ig n e d t h e m e m o r a n d u m .

So now we have – we are now in a

b o a r d r o o m n o w t h e m e m o r a n d u m is b r o u g h t t h r o u g h a n d t h e y w a n t e d t o
understand what my concerns were.

S o t h a t is w h e n I w a s a s k in g

a b o u t t h is r e c o m m e n d a t io n , h o w m is a l ig n e d i t is t o h o w t h is th in g h a s
e v o lv e d a n d j u s t w h a t m y r o le is b e c a u s e i f I c a n n o t o v e r r u l e c r o s s 20

f u n c t i o n a l e v a lu a ti o n te a m b e c a u s e i t r e p r e s e n t s m e th e n I h a v e n o r o l e
t o p la y o n t h is th i n g a n d t h o s e a r e t h e f e w q u e s ti o n s I w a s a c tu a lly
tr y i n g t o g e t c l a r it y o n . J a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s o u g h t c l a r i t y b e c a u s e y o u w e r e n e w ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a I w a s n e w a n d I w a s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t is t h e r e a s o n t h a t y o u d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d j a .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d I w a s s a y i n g – y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e o f th e th i n g s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

L e t m e n o t d e la y o p e r a t io n s o f

Tr a n s n e t b e c a u s e o f m y b e i n g a n e w b e a n i e a n d s o o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : S o C h a ir I s u p p o s e t h i s p a r t is
e m b a r r a s s in g b e c a u s e t h e n a f t e r I u n d e r s t o o d a n d I k n e w th a t I w a s n o t
a c t u a ll y i n a g r e e m e n t w it h t h a t m e m o r a n d u m t h a t s h e h a s j u s t
c o n fir m e d t h a t is t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t I s e e . C h a ir y o u w il l n o t ic e t h a t
10

I a c tu a l ly s ig n e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I a m s o r r y b e fo r e y o u c o m e to t h e m e m o r a n d u m I
w a n t to h e a r h o w t h e m e e t in g w a s d is c u s s i n g is s u e s , I w a n t t h a t .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

And how you – how the – at what stage the

m e m o r a n d u m c o m e s u p w h e th e r i t c o m e s u p a t th e b e g i n n i n g a n d s o
o n . I w a n t t o h e a r th a t .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

O k a y. S o C h a i r t h e tr i g g e r f o r

t h is m e e ti n g w a s m y h a v i n g n o t b e i n g a b l e t o s ig n a n d a g r e e w i th t h e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b a s e d o n t h e f il e t h a t M r T h o m a s b r o u g h t to m y o ffi c e .
20

A n d s u b s e q u e n t t o m y h a v in g r e a d a ll t h e p r o c e s s e s , t h e p r o c u r e m e n t
p r o c e d u r e s t h a t t h e y f o l l o w e d t h e – h o w t h e y a p p li e d t h e e v a l u a ti o n ,
h o w t h e y a p p l ie d t h e r is k I s t il l c o u l d n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y th e n w a s
G ij i m a n o t t h e r e c o m m e n d e d b i d d e r.

B u t a ls o I w a n te d t o u n d e r s t a n d

m y r o l e in t h is w h o le p r o c e s s b e c a u s e – s o I s a y t o M r M a l u l e k e o k a y
s o n o w t h e c r o s s - f u n c ti o n – s o h e s a y s M a k a n o it is n o t m e w h o

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r e c o m m e n d e d th is i t is y o u . S o I s a i d b u t m e ? H e s a y s y e s b e c a u s e
the

c r o s s - fu n c t io n a l

e v a l u a t io n

team

represent

you.

Yo u

have

a p p o i n t e d t h e m a s a G r o u p C I O t h e y d o th e w o r k th a t th e te c h n ic a l
w o r k th a t y o u m u s t d o . I a m n o t a t e c h n ic a l p e r s o n y o u r t e a m i s a n d
t h e y h a v e r e c o m m e n d e d t h is . S o y o u w a n t t o g o a g a i n s t y o u r s e l f ? I n
o th e r w o r d s y o u k n o w.

A n d i t w a s n o t – it w a s o n e o f t h e m o s t

u n p le a s a n t m e e t in g s b e c a u s e m y w h o l e b e i n g w a s s a y in g th e fl o w o f
lo g i c w a s n o t m a k i n g s e n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a b e c a u s e i f th e y a r e m a k i n g – i f t h e y a r e y o u w h y
10

are they not making the decision.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y a r e th e y m a k i n g a r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t o y o u ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:
a c t u a ll y s a y in g t h a t is y o u .

E x a c t ly C h a ir.

So but he was

N o w in m y c o n fu s i o n I j u s t f e e l li k e – I

c a n n o t j u s t b e h e r e l ik e a b e a u t i fu l fl o w e r p o t o n t h e ta b le a n d s i g n . S o
w h il s t I h a v e n o t e d t h e c o n te n ts o f t h i s I s ti ll h a v e to m a k e m y
d is c o m f o r t a n d m y d i s p le a s u r e k n o w n in te r ms o f th is m e m o r a n d u m .
W h i ls t

people

can

agree

that

cross-functional

e v a lu a ti o n

te a m

r e p r e s e n ts y o u a n d th e y h a v e r e c o m m e n d e d t h i s m y v ie w s m u s t b e
20

k n o w n . A n d t h e n o f c o u r s e C h a ir y o u w i ll n o t ic e th a t I a c t u a ll y s ig n e d .
A n d I w i ll s i t h e r e a n d s a y I s i g n e d u n d e r d u r e s s I s ti ll r e m e m b e r th a t
t o s a y, w h y a m I s ig n i n g I d o n o t w a n t t o s i g n t h i s .
ti m e I d o n o t w a n t t o d e l a y t h e p r o c e s s .

But at the same

Yo u k n o w t h e r e is w o r k a t

h a n d t o b e d o n e s o c a n I – l e t m e n o t b e t h e i m p e d i m e n t p u r e ly
b e c a u s e I a m n e w.

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w a s it l ik e e v e r y b o d y s a w n o p r o b le m a n d y o u

a r e t h e o n l y o n e w h o s a w a p r o b l e m i n t h i s m e e ti n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : C h a ir m y g u t a n d m y f e e li n g o f
t h e m e e t in g i n th e r o o m p e o p l e w e r e n o t r e a ll y c o m i n g o u t , p e o p l e w e r e
q u i e t . I t w a s m e a n d M r M a l u l e k e a c tu a lly e x c h a n g in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : A n d I s a w t h i s s i l e n c e a li t tl e b i t
to say but people were…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

P e o p le w e r e y o u k n o w – a n d I

w a s r e a l ly h o p i n g t h a t M r M t s h w e n e w i ll c o m e t h r o u g h b e c a u s e h e w a s
fr o m g o v e r n a n c e a s w e l l b u t h e w a s a ls o v e r y c a u ti o u s i n t e r m s o f w h a t
it is a n d s o o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

S o i t w a s m o r e m e a n d Mr

M a lu l e k e w h o w e r e tr y i n g to c l a r i fy e a c h o th e r a n d m a k e s u r e th a t w e
a c t u a ll y l a n d a t a c o m m o n p l a c e t o s a y le t u s d o t h is t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h i s w a y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

S o C h a ir y o u w il l s e e m y

s ig n a tu r e o n t h a t m e m o r a n d u m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e r e w a s – t h e r e w a s n o t m u c h d is c u s s i o n o t h e r
t h a n th e d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n y o u a n d M r M a l u l e k e a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : A l o t o f p e o p l e d id n o t c o m e in t o

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t h e d i s c u s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I n – a r ti c u l a t e a n y v i e w s ? J a .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

A n d I t h i n k M r M a lu l e k e ’s c u e

w a s r e a ll y s tr e n g t h e n e d b y th e G a r t n e r R e p o r t t h a t h e w a s r e fe r r i n g to
a b o u t t h e r is k s w h i c h to m e i t w a s a m o o t p o i n t b e c a u s e th o s e r i s k s
w e r e a c t u a ll y n o t o b j e c t iv e c r it e r ia t o b e a p p li e d .
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to go back to where your signature is.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t is o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is th a t ?
10

A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e s i g n a t u r e is o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I fo u n d it 3 0 ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: 3 9 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

I s e e i t is o n e o ’c l o c k m a y b e le t u s j u s t fi n i s h t h is

part if possible.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o p r o b l e m C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o y o u s i g n e d t h e r e a n d y o u s a id s e e m y

q u e s t io n s a t ta c h e d , is t h a t r ig h t ?
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h a t is w h e r e y o u w a n t e d to r e c o r d y o u r

concerns?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o I …

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I m a d e th o s e t w o p o i n ts .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER: Can you – for the record can you just
r e a d t h o s e p o i n ts i n to r e c o r d p l e a s e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O k a y.
“ T h e r is k a s c a p t u r e d c a n b e e a s i ly m i ti g a te d b y th e
G r o u p I n fo r m a ti o n a n d C o m m u n ic a t i o n s Te c h n o l o g y. ”
The second comment was:
“Bidder
10

2

is

cheaper

can

d e l iv e r

against

the

r e q u ir e m e n t s a n d h a s t h e r ig h t c o u n tr y p r o fi le . ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d a r e y o u a b l e t o r e a d t h e n o te m a d e b y Mr T h u l a n i
M t s h w e n e a l o n g h is s i g n a t u r e o r a r e y o u n o t a b l e to r e a d ?

I see

s o m e t h i n g H V T R e p o r t is s a ti s fa c t o r y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th a t …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O b j e c ti v e c r i t e r i a .
CHAIRPERSON: I cannot read…
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I c o u l d n o t r e a d i t w e ll C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
20

ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER: Chair I m ay be able to assist based on
a c o m m u n i c a t io n t h a t w e h a v e r e c e iv e d w h ic h is u n d e r p r o c e s s th o u g h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d t h a t is t h a t i t i n fo r ms t h a t h e

s u p p o r t w a s c o n d it i o n a l a n d t h e w r i t in g t h e r e w a s th a t t h e h i g h v a l u e
t e n d e r r e p o r t s u p p o r te d t h e r e c o m m e n d a t i o n a n d th a t o b j e c ti v e c r i t e r ia

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w a s a p p li e d a s I a d v is e d p e r A n n e x u r e T – a s a d v is e p e r A n n e x u r e
TLM03.
CHAIRPERSON:

S o M r M ts h w e n e ’s s i g n a t u r e w a s c o n d i ti o n a l.

H is

s u p p o r t w a s c o n d i t io n a l is th a t w h a t i t a m o u n t s t o ?
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

W h ic h – w h i c h m a y s u g g e s t h e h a d c e r t a i n

q u e s t io n m a r k s a s w e ll ?
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C e r ta in r e s e r v a t io n y e s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

C e r t a i n r e s e r v a t io n s y e s .

A n d h o w d id th e m e e t in g

e n d o n c e – y o u s i g n e d a t t h e m e e ti n g o r s u b s e q u e n t ly ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir I s i g n e d a t t h e m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS

MAKANO

M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

And

they

le f t w it h

the

memorandum.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d I s ta y e d w i t h my d i s c o m f o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : J u s t o n e la s t q u e s t io n th e n b e f o r e w e
adjourn.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t b e f o r e th a t I t h in k s h e w a n t s to c o m p l e te

something?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : J a I w a n t e d t o s a y s o C h a ir i t is
v e r y d i ff ic u l t t o d o w h a t y o u th i n k is a c t u a lly w r o n g .

So yes I had

a p p e n d e d th is s i g n a t u r e , y e s I h a d m a d e c o m m e n t s b u t I h a d a s tr o n g
s e n s e th a t I m u s t n o w g iv e t h e d e t a i l o f w h y I a m s a y in g t h o s e r i s k s a r e

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
n o t r is k s a t a l l.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o I w e n t a h e a d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

S a t i n m y o ff ic e a n d s t a r te d

a c t u a ll y p u tt i n g a p a r t e a c h a n d e v e r y r is k t h a t m e n ti o n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : A n d w h y i n m y v i e w a n d m y ta k e
a n d m y e x p e r ie n c e th o s e w e r e n o t r is k s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a s o I p r e p a r e d th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d I w a s r e a d y w i th it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : S o I g a v e it – I p r i n te d i t o u t a n d
I g a v e i t t o th e m a n a g e r i n M r G a m a ’s o ff i c e Mr G a m a w a s m y b o s s a n d
u n f o r t u n a t e ly I c a n n o t fi n d a c o p y o f t h is b e c a u s e I g a v e it t o h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I h a d a c o p y.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: B u t I c a n s t il l e x p l a i n w h a t t h e
r is k s a r e .
CHAIRPERSON: YEs.
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

B e c a u s e t h e y w e r e a c t u a ll y

c o m i n g fr o m m y m i n d in t e r m s o f r e s p o n d i n g .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

S o I d i d t r y to s u p p o r t .

H is

a d v ic e w a s th a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o g i v e th e d e ta il
o f th e r is k s . Yo u m a y w a n t t o k e e p y o u r d o c u m e n t a n d w h e n t h e ti m e
c o m e s y o u w i ll a c tu a lly g i v e t h a t d e t a il to s a y w h y d o y o u t h in k t h a t t h e
r is k s a r e n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s M r G a m a ’s a d v i c e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : J a t h a t w a s M r G a m a ’s b u s in e s s
m a n a g e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e a d v i c e fr o m M r G a m a ’s b u s i n e s s m a n a g e r.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s M r M b o n i s o . M r M o b i n is o
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

But once you had recommended – once you had

a p p r o v e d th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n i f t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s a c c e p t e d
w h e r e w a s th e r e g o i n g t o b e a c h a n c e to t a lk a b o u t t h e s e r e s e r v a t io n s
a g a in ? I d o n o t u n d e r s ta n d th a t w i th h i s a d v i c e t o y o u .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

J a s o C h a ir p e r h a p s o n

h i n d s i g h t I a m s a y in g p e r h a p s b e c a u s e t h is p r o c e s s a f t e r I h a d s i g n e d
20

it l o o k e d l ik e it w e n t i n t o a d a r k h o l e b e c a u s e t h e n y o u w o u l d s e e t h a t
M r Pi t a n e v e r s i g n e d a n d M r G a m a .

P e r h a p s t h e y a c tu a lly t o o k m y

n o t e s i n t o c o g n i s a n c e to s a y t h e r e i s s o m e r e s e r v a ti o n c a n w e c l a r i fy
t h a t fir s t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

Perhaps he knew just how Mr

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
G a m a ’s m i n d w o r k e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : P e r h a p s h e k n e w th a t M r G a m a
w a n t e d w a te r t ig h t th i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: B e f o r e h e c a n a c t u a ll y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : B u t a t th a t t i m e o f c o u r s e I t o o k
h is c o u n s e l a n d I k e p t m y m e m o r a n d u m – I k e p t m y d e t a i ls .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

No thank you.

Let us take the lunch

a d j o u r n m e n t . W e – i t is a b o u t e ig h t m i n u t e s p a s t o n e w e w i ll r e s u m e a t
ten past two.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y w e a d jo u r n .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h a n k s C h a ir.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

Before

th e

long

adjournment

M s M o s id i y o u w e r e t a lk in g s p e c i fic t o t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n t h a t w a s
p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u a s a d d r e s s e d a t a p a r ti c u l a r m e e t in g c a l li n g fo r y o u r
s ig n a tu r e o f t h e d o c u m e n t . J u s t t o c lo s e t h a t o ff c a n I a s k y o u to l o o k
a t p a g e 3 9 o f t h e b u n d l e a n d t h a t is t h e s i g n a t u r e p a g e o f t h a t
document?

T h e f ir s t s i g n a t u r e o n t h e le f t h a n d s id e o n t o p is b y a n

M s P h e l a d i X a b a a n d t h e ti t le o f t h e ti tl e o f th is p a r tic u la r i n d iv i d u a l is

Page 137 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C o m m o d i ty M a n a g e r G r o u p S tr a te g ic S o u r c i n g .

Ms Xaba had signed

t h e d o c u m e n t . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s m a ’a m .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O n e q u e s ti o n – th e v e r y p o s i t io n o f

C o m m o d i ty M a n a g e r G r o u p S t r a t e g i c S o u r c i n g is i t a n a d m in is tr a ti v e
r o l e o r w h o w o u ld y o u d e s c r ib e t h e r o le o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r p o s i t io n t o th e
process?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir I t h i n k m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g

o f t h a t r o l e a n d h a v i n g t h e n r e a d t h e P P M a s w e ll . Th a t r o l e is a s s u b
10

p r o c e s s w it h in t h e c o n tr a c t m a n a g e m e n t r o l e w h ic h e n t a ils a w h o l e l o t
o f th i n g s i n c lu d in g a d m in is tr a ti v e b u t it a l s o in c l u d e s th i n g s l ik e w h e n
t h e c o n tr a c t i s a c tu a lly g e t ti n g t o a n e n d y o u a c t u a lly p r e p a r e a
m e m o r a n d u m t o r e q u e s t f o r a n e x t e n s io n w h ic h m e a n s t h a t y o u w ill
h a v e t o a l s o u n d e r s t a n d t h e c o n t e n t o f t h a t p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r.

So it

g o e s a li t tl e b it b e y o n d t h e a d mi n is tr a tiv e r o le o f j u s t w r i ti n g m i n u te s
a n d p u t t in g t h i n g s to g e t h e r b u t i t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g t h a t i t a c tu a l ly
h a s t h e c o n tr a c t m a n a g e m e n t a n g le to it a n d t o b e a b le t o a l s o ju s t
h e l p w i t h th e p r o c e s s i n g o f t e n d e r s a n d th e ir v a li d i ty a t a n y o n e p o in t i n
ti m e .
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Th a n k y o u . C a n I th e n t a k e y o u b a c k
t o p a g e 11 o f t h e b u n d l e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e y o u d o s o y o u s p o k e b e f o r e l u n c h a b o u t th e

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t y o u t o o k t o M r G a m a w h e r e y o u – a s I u n d e r s ta n d
w h a t y o u s a i d – w h e r e y o u p u t y o u r v ie w s r a t h e r c o m p r e h e n s i v e ly o r
m o r e c o m p r e h e n s iv e ly t h a n t h e c o m m e n t s y o u m a d e o n t h e l a s t p a g e o f

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
the memorandum ending at page 39 and you said that memorandum you
c a n n o t f in d a c o p y t h e r e o f a n y m o r e .

Is there anything I should know

a b o u t th e c o n te n t o f t h a t m e m o r a n d u m o th e r t h a n t h e p o in ts y o u
a r ti c u la t e d a t th e b o tt o m o f p a g e 3 9 ? Is t h e r e a n y t h in g y o u w a n t to s a y
a s to t h a t is i m p o r t a n t in t e r m s o f t h e c o n t e n t s t h e r e o f ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir y e s .

The memorandum

a i m s to g iv e th e d e t a i l o f t h e r i s k s a n d m y u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e r is k s
a n d m y t a k e t h a t t h e y a r e n o t a s m a te r i a l b u t a l s o s o m e o f t h e m a r e
a c t u a ll y ir r e l e v a n t.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o w s o m e o f t h e r is k s th a t w e r e
r a i s e d C h a ir a n d m a y b e f o r y o u r n o ti n g a s w e ll …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I th in k is o n e j u s t o v e r a l l …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h e r is k s w e r e m o s tly p e r ta i n i n g
t o t h e p r o je c t s c o p e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O r t h e t e c h n ic a l …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o p e r a t io n a l m a t te r s I th i n k y o u a l s o s a id a s w e l l.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s C h a ir a n d – b u t it a ls o

in c l u d e d s o m e a d m i n is t r a t iv e t h i n g s l ik e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 139 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I f Tr a n s n e t o u t o f p r e f e r e n c e

a n d c h o ic e c a n c e ls t h i s t e n d e r w h a t d o - w ill Tr a n s n e t b e li a b l e f o r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I n t e r m s o f t h is c o n tr a c t.

Now

…
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t is a q u e s ti o n t h a t y o u a s k

e v e r y o n e I s u p p o s e i n te r ms o f …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Fo r one reason or the other if

o u t o f c o n v e n i e n c e w e w a n t to c a n c e l t h is a n d w h a t w a s h i g h li g h te d a s
a r i s k a n d I w a s s a y in g i t c a n n o t b e a r i s k t o b e a p p l ie d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t is a s c e n a r i o p l a n n in g o f s o m e
sort …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

W h e r e y o u a r e s a y i n g if t h i s

happened.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

It is n o t G ij i m a s a y i n g o h w e

w a n t 4 0 0 a n d w h a te v e r m i ll i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S o i t is – i t i s s u c h – t h e o t h e r

r is k I th i n k i t w a s p e r t a i n i n g to ju s t h o w G i ji m a w a n t e d t o tr a n s i ti o n a n d
h o w th e y f o u n d t h e d a t a c e n tr e t h a t G ij i m a w a s g o i n g t o u s e .

Page 140 of 223

They

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
f o u n d t h e w r e c k s e m p ty a n d t h e y d i d n o t t h i n k th a t i t is a s o p e r a ti o n a l
a n d m y p o i n t is t h a t i t is n o t o u t o f p r a c ti c e . Yo u c a n n o t s t o c k u p y o u r
d e a le r c e n tr e a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d b u y s w i tc h e s a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

R o u te r s a n d a l l t h e p r o c e s s in g

p o w e r s a n d s t o r a g e d e v i c e s i f y o u d o n o t h a v e a c li e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S o w h a t y o u d o o n c e t h e c l ie n t

is s e c u r e d y o u a c t u a l ly o r d e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

A n d y e s y o u w i ll h a v e a li t

period …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O f t h a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

And when we met with – with

G ij i m a w h e n I w a s g iv e n t h e o p p o r tu n i t y t o a c t u a l ly c la r i fy t h e w h o le
20

p o s i ti o n i n t e r m s o f t h e d a ta c e n tr e t h e y a c t u a ll y e x p l a i n e d t h e y c a m e
w i t h t h e ir p a r tn e r s . T h e y h a d a lr e a d y e v e n p r e o r d e r e d t h e e q u ip m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o I th in k m y m e m o r a n d u m - i f I
r e c a l l c l e a r ly – I w a s tr y i n g t o g iv e th e d e t a i l o f a ll t h a t t o s a y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 141 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

W e c a n n o t t h e r e f o r e a p p ly t h i s

a s r is k s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h a n k s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and just to give me maybe an even clearer
p ic t u r e o f w h e r e – w h a t y o u r v ie w w a s .

Out of 100 what would you

m o r e o r l e s s h a v e g iv e n G ij i m a a n d w h a t w o u ld h a v e g i v e n T- S y s t e m s
m o r e o r l e s s in t e r m s o f y o u r o w n a s s e s s m e n t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I th in k C h a ir …
10

CHAIRPERSON:

H o w fa r a p a r t w e r e t h e r e in y o u r v i e w ta k i n g in t o

a c c o u n t r is k s t h a t w e r e ta k e n i n t o a c c o u n t b y o t h e r p e o p l e w h o y o u
t h o u g h t s h o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n t a k e n i n to a c c o u n t?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s . I – I th in k f o r m e C h a i r i f I
lo o k a t h o w t h e e v o lu t io n h a s h a p p e n e d t h e k i n d o f t h in g s t h e y l o o k e d
a t th e d i ffe r e n t ( in d is ti n c t) w a s g o in g t o b e p r i c e b e c a u s e w i t h
o u t s o u r c e c o n tr a c ts y o u r e a l ly h a v e a b i g m a r g in t o p la y w i t h b e c a u s e
how they work.

If y o u e m p l o y m e a s a d a t a b a s e a d m in is tr a to r I c a n

a c t u a ll y s e r v ic e 1 0 c u s t o m e r s .

S o t h e e c o n o m i c s o f s c a l e b e n e fi t is

q u i te m a s s iv e . S o I w a s n o t s u r p r is e d t h a t t h e y a c t u a ll y s la s h e d o ff th e
20

p r i c e b y 5 0 0 o r w h a te v e r i t is t h a t t h e y s l a s h e d i t w it h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

So

for

me

that

was

the

d i ff e r e n c e t o s a y w h o i s c o m i n g i n c o s t e ff e c ti v e ly fo r m e …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

B e c a u s e t e c h n ic a lly t h e y w e r e

Page 142 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
n e c k o n n e c k ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, o k a y.

So – so – but you say because of the

r e d u c t i o n o f t h e ir p r ic e …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n t h e m a n d T- Sy s te m s b e c a m e
q u i te b i g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

It became quite big because of

that BAFO stage …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

W h e r e t h e y w e r e a c tu a lly g i v e n

a n o p p o r t u n i ty to g i v e t h e B e s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d Fi n a l O ff e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. A t p a r a g r a p h 2 7 o n
p a g e 11 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u i n fo r m t h a t y o u w e r e p r o v i d e d w it h a n
a n o n y m o u s l e t te r fr o m y o u r c o ll e a g u e – y o u r t h e n c o l le a g u e –
M s D is e b o M o e p h u li . C a n y o u p l e a s e e x p la in t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s u n d e r
w h ic h th is a n o n y m o u s le t t e r w a s s h a r e d w i t h y o u ?
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O k a y. S o C h a ir n o w th e p r o c e s s
t o w a r d s t h e e n d o f t h is e v a l u a ti o n a n d a d j u d ic a ti o n o f t h is te n d e r i s
w e ll u n d e r w a y.

T h e r e a r e m e m o r a n d u ms t h a t a r e p r e s e n t e d .

m y o w n m is g iv i n g s in t e r m s o f t h is m e m o r a n d u m .

I have

I c a n p ic k u p

d is c o m f o r t fr o m p e o p l e i n s i d e th e m e e ti n g t h a t t h e y a r e n o t a c t u a l ly
s p e a k i n g l o u d . I t is li k e – i t i s m y o n ly m e e t in g h e r e a n d in t h a t w h o l e

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ti m e w h e n t h e s e th i n g s h a p p e n e d t h e n t h e r e is t h is a n o n y m o u s le t t e r
t h a t g e ts g i v e n t o t h e G r o u p C C R O – C h i e f C o m p li a n c e R is k O ff e r.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

J u s t t o c o r r e c t y o u i t is t h e C h ie f

C o r p o r a te a n d R e g u la t o r y O ff ic e r.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Oh,

Chief

Corporate

and

R e g u l a t o r y O ffi c e r.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S o w h o w a s s i t t in g w i th m e o n

the same EXCO table of Mr Gama.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is n o Ms D i s e b o … ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: D i s e b o M o e p h u l i o n p a g e 11 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o e p h u l i, o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e s t a t e m e n t s a y s C h ie f R is k O ffi c e r b u t y o u s a y

that is – that is not correct?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A p o l o g i e s C h a ir. I t is a c t u a ll y i n th e
le t t e r w h i c h w e w il l t u r n to s h o r tl y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

T h a t w a s t h e d e s c r ip t io n o f t h e

p o s i ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t w h a t I a m s a y i n g is w h a t is in t h e s t a te m e n t
y o u s a y m a y n o t b e c o r r e c t – t h a t d e s c r ip t i o n ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : L e t m e r a th e r j u s t d o u b l e c h e c k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u a r e n o t s u r e .

W h a t is y o u r r e c o ll e c t io n

M s M o s id i?

Page 144 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t h i n k i t is C C R O .

So that

C C R O C h a ir I a m c e r ta i n o f i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: B u t I d o n o t w h a t i t – I t h o u g h t i t
s a y s C h i e f C o m p li a n c e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : C o m p li a n c e …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d R is k O ffic e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d R i s k – o k a y. N o t h a t i s f in e , o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

A n d M s M o e p h u li w a s n o t t h e

o n e w h o is m a n n i n g w h a t w e u s e d t o c a ll a – a h o t li n e – w h a t d id t h e y
c a l l i t ? W h e r e p e o p l e w o u l d r e g is t e r th e i r c o m p la i n t s a n o n y m o u s l y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: She – she was not that person?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S h e w a s n o t t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
20

S h e w a s ju s t t h e H e a d o f C C –

of Compliance and Risk …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d I t h in k s h e - s h e w a s k n o w n
f o r a c t in g q u ic k ly a n d d e a l in g w i t h t h i n g s t h e r ig h t w a y a n d s o o n a n d I
t h i n k th a t i s w h y t h is f a c e l e s s g r o u p a c t u a l ly w r o t e t h is l e t te r t o h e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e t h e y w o u l d h a v e p e r c e iv e d h e r a s a p o s s i b le

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
s t u m b li n g b lo c k in t h e s e n s e th a t o n c e – a t a c e r ta i n s t a g e s h e m i g h t
s a y n o , n o t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g w r o n g h e r e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s . T h e y h a d p e r c e iv e d h e r a s
s o m e o n e w h o is fr a n k a n d s t r a ig h t …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

A n d w h o w o u ld a c t u a ll y d e a l

w i t h s o m e th i n g t h a t t h e y r a is e d . S o s h e r e c e i v e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d it w a s d ir e c t e d g o h e r – a t h e r ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t w a s – i t w a s g i v e n to h e r.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In th a t i n s t a n c e c a n I t h e n a s k y o u t o
t u r n t o p a g e 6 7 o f th e b u n d l e ?
CHAIRPERSON: One second. Thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

D o y o u r e c o g n is e

t h is d o c u m e n t a s t h e a n o n y m o u s le t t e r M s M o s i d i ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir. I – I d o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a i r d u e t o t h e g r a v i ty o f s o m e o f

t h e a ll e g a ti o n s s t a t e d i n th is le t t e r a n d i n p a r tic u la r t o t h e e v e n ts t h a t
u n f o l d th e r e a r e c e r t a in a s p e c ts th a t I w il l r e a d in t o th e r e c o r d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : D u e to t h e s e r i o u s n e s s o f a ll e g a t i o n s
c o n ta in e d i n th is a n o n y m o u s l e t t e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d h o w i t is t o b e c o n s i d e r e d in

v ie w o f t h e e v e n t s t h a t u n fo l d th e r e a r e c e r t a i n p o r ti o n s o f t h is l e t te r

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t h a t I w il l r e a d o u t .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll l e t – l e t t h e w i tn e s s r e a d t h e m .

I f s h e m ig h t

w i s h t o h ig h l i g h t c e r ta in a s p e c t s th a t s h e w ill n o t r e a d - r e a d o u t a n d
t h e n r e a d o u t t h o s e t h a t a r e i m p o r ta n t .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

N o p r o b l e m C h a ir.

M s M o s i d i th is

le t t e r is t h e l e t t e r t h a t is d a te d 5 O c to b e r 2 0 1 6 . C a n I a s k y o u to r e a d
a n d u n fo r t u n a t e ly t h e p a r a g r a p h s a r e n o t n u m b e r e d b u t th e f o u r th
p a r a g r a p h s t a r ti n g w i th :
“We were happy …”
10

D o w n to t h e t h ir d l a s t p a r a g r a p h :
“ … w i t h t h i s l e tt e r fr o m t h e E v a l u a t i o n Te a m . ”
C a n I a s k y o u t o r e a d th a t i n t o t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h a n k s C h a ir.
“ W e w e r e h a p p y w i t h t h e o p e n a n d tr a n s p a r e n t
m a n n e r i n w h ic h t h e v a r i o u s s t a g e s o f t h e t e n d e r
e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s u p t o s ta g e 5 w h i c h i s a B A F O
w e r e u n d e r ta k e n a n d fo ll o w e d i n li n e w it h t h e
t e n d e r.

A f t e r t h e t e c h n i c a l e v a l u a t io n a s p e r t h e

d e f in e d p r o c e s s w e c o n d u c t e d a d u e d il i g e n c e o n
20

b o t h T- S y s te m s a n d G i ji m a w h e r e b o t h c o m p a n ie s
s a ti s f i e d t h e t e n d e r r e q u ir e m e n ts .

T h e r e a ft e r b o th

parties were requested to price BAFO as greenfi e l d s i n o r d e r t o le v e l t h e p la y i n g fi e l d a s p e r t h e
tender requirement.

However post BAFO we were

s u r p r is e d th a t t h e E v a l u a t io n Te a m L e a d e r s r a is e d

Page 147 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t e c h n ic a l is s u e s a b o u t b i d d e r G i ji m a a n d e n g a g e d
in a n e w p r o c e s s n o t d e fi n e d i n t h e te n d e r n o r in
o u r Tr a n s n e t P r o c e s s e s . T h i s w a s a h u g e s u r p r is e
a s G i ji m a c a m e in a l m o s t R 2 3 0 m il li o n c h e a p e r t h a n
T- S y s t e ms y e t w e w e r e q u e s ti o n i n g h o w t h e y c o u ld
d e li v e r a t t h e ir t e n d e r p r ic e .

T h is n e w p r o c e s s

in c l u d e d a m a i l o r a l e t t e r b e in g s e n t t o B i d d e r
G ij i m a to n o w r e s p o n d t o t h e s o c a ll e d id e n t i fi e d
r is k s a n d r e s p o n d b y m i ti g a ti n g t h e s e r is k s a s w e ll
10

as to new terminologies not part of the tender
d o c u m e n t n a m e ly c u r r e n t m o d e o f o p e r a ti o n a n d
f u t u r e m o d e o f o p e r a ti o n .

T h is l e tt e r fr o m t h e

E v a l u a t io n Te a m L e a d e r s r a is e d o u r c o n c e r n t h a t
the process post BAFO was now a new one.”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C a n I t h e n a s k y o u to p le a s e r e a d

t h e la s t p a r a g r a p h o n t h is p a g e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: “ T h e s e n e w c o n d i ti o n s
are not only new but do not make any sense. How
c a n a n e w b i d d e r e v e r s u b m i t a b id p r i c e fo r a n
20

F M O - w h ic h is Fi n a l M o d e o f O p e r a ti o n - w it h o u t
h a v i n g h a d t h e o p p o r t u n i ty to m a n a g e w h a t is
r e q u ir e d b y b o t h t h e t e n d e r a n d d r a ft M S A – M a s t e r
S e r v ic e s A g r e e m e n t ? T h i s is n o t o n ly b iz a r r e b u t a
d e li b e r a t e

ploy

to

bring

T- S y s t e m s

through

a

b a c k d o o r t o w i n a c o n tr a c t t h e y a r e l o s i n g o n

Page 148 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
merit.”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If y o u c a n t h e n tu r n th e p a g e – th e

fir s t fo u r s h o r t p a r a g r a p h s o n t o p p l e a s e r e a d t h a t i n to t h e r e c o r d i f y o u
may?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: “ To u s a g r o u p o f m o r e
t h a n 1 2 p e r s o n s t h e in t e r a c ti o n s a n d l o b b y in g p o s t
B A F O b y th e E v a l u a t io n Te a m L e a d e r s i n d i c a t e d
t h a t w h i ls t o n m e r i t a l o n e B id d e r G ij i m a a r e t h e j u s t
winners.
10

The

new

process

undertaken

w h ic h

in c l u d e d v o t in g w a s a c l e a r p l o y t o g o a g a i n s t t h e
t e n d e r e v a l u a ti o n p r o c e s s a n d f i n d w a y s t o e n s u r e
t h a t t h e c u r r e n t i n c u m b e n t s u c c e e d s n o m a tt e r t h a t
t h e y a r e o v e r R 2 3 0 m il li o n m o r e e x p e n s iv e .
v o ti n g

after

BAFO

in

p a r t ic u l a r

was

The
found

concerning by many of us and as we were spoken to
b e f o r e w e w e r e c a ll e d t o t h e u r g e n t v o t i n g m e e ti n g
a n d b u ll d o z e d t o v o t e .

Out of fear of losing our

jo b s w e v o te d i n f a v o u r a s p e r L e a d Mc D o n a ld w h o
c la i m e d t h e b o s s e s w a n te d t h e c u r r e n t i n c u m b e n t to
20

s u c c e e d . M a n y o f u s h a v e s i le n tl y th e n e w p r o c e s s
p u s h e d d o w n o u r th r o a ts a s u n la w f u l a n d a n a t t e m p t
t o r i g t h e r e s u l ts . If t h e in t e n ti o n w a s … ”
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : In f a c t …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Is it fi n e ?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I n fa c t – y e s if y o u c o u l d t h e n g o

Page 149 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
d o w n to t h e p a r a g r a p h w h i c h is t h ir d fr o m t h e b o t t o m b e g i n n in g w i t h :
“We are amazed …”
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: “ W e a r e a m a z e d a t t h e
fl o a ti n g o f th e t e n d e r p r o c e s s w h e r e w e p r e j u d ic e a
lo c a l

company

th a t

scored

high

on

t e c h n ic a l ,

B B B E E a n d f in a n c i a l a s th e t e n d e r c r i te r i a . T h i s i s
w h a t w e k n o w a s th e o n ly c r i te r i a t h a t Tr a n s n e t
u s e s i n e v a l u a t i n g t e n d e r s o n th e 9 0 /1 0 p r in c i p l e
b u t f o r th is t e n d e r e v e r y r u le i n t h e b o o k is b e i n g
10

ig n o r e d o n c h a n g e d i n o r d e r t o a r r iv e a t a d i ffe r e n t
d e c is i o n . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I then ask you to turn the page 69

a n d r e a d t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h i n to t h e r e c o r d p l e a s e .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

“ W e a r e a ls o a w a r e

t h a t l e g a l w a s n o t h a p p y w i t h th is n e w p r o c e s s t o
e l i m in a t e a d e s e r v i n g l o c a l c o m p a n y.

L egal was

a ls o c o n c e r n e d a b o u t th e u s e o f t h e s o c a l le d fu t u r e
m o d e o f o p e r a t io n a s t h is fl y in th e f a c e o f
f a ir n e s s . ”
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

If

you

c o u ld

then

go

three

paragraphs down to:
“We do not want to see …”
A n d r e a d th a t a n d t h e fo ll o w i n g t w o p a r a g r a p h s in t o th e r e c o r d p le a s e .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

“We do not want to

s e e n e g a ti v e n e w s m e d i a a r t ic le s a b o u t t e n d e r

Page 150 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ir r e g u l a r i ti e s b e i n g p r in t e d a b o u t th is te n d e r. W h e n
a l l w e tr i e d t o d o w h a t is r i g h t a n d e x p e c t e d o f u s is
n o t B A F O fl o u te d w it h in i m p u n i ty i n t h e n a m e o f t h e
b o s s e s . T h is k i n d o f b e h a v i o u r w il l e n s u r e t h a t w e
have a case to answer to and we do not want to be
a p a r ty to s u c h d is r e g a r d o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t r u l e s .
Tr a n s n e t’s g o v e r n a n c e a n d P F M A a s B i d d e r G ij i m a
m a y a p p r o a c h th e c o u r ts . ”
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d t h e n i f I c o u ld t a k e y o u d o w n to
10

t h e p a r a g r a p h w h ic h b e g in s w it h :
“ T h e q u e s ti o n t h a t is g l a r i n g th e n … ”
And kindly read the – the two paragraphs.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
g l a r in g

then

is

who

“ T h e q u e s ti o n t h a t is

stands

to

b e n e fi t

here.

Tr a n s n e t w i ll d e fi n i t e l y b e t h e lo s e r h e r e fr o m t h e
media

s c r u ti n y

and

f a il in g

our

tr a n s f o r m a ti o n

a g e n d a w h e r e a l o c a l c o m p a n y i s o n t o p o n m e r i t.
T h e is s u e o f s ta t e c a p t u r e is to p i c a l a m o n g s t S ta t e
O w n e d E n t i ti e s a n d w e d o n o t w a n t t o a d d f u e l t o
20

t h e fir e w h e r e a s e r v ic e p r o v id e r w h o lo s t is
r e ta i n e d a t a ll c o s ts .

W e a r e c o n c e r n e d o u r te a m

le a d e r s f i n d n o t h i n g w r o n g i n b r in g in g Tr a n s n e t i n t o
d is r e p u te a n d w a n t t o d i v e r t fr o m th e te n d e r a w a r d
p r o c e s s k n o w i n g ly. ”
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d f in a lly t h e la s t p a r a g r a p h o n t h is

Page 151 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
page please.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

“ A s w e w e r e to l d i t is

a n in s t r u c t i o n fr o m th e to p w h o a m o n g s t a r e s e n i o r
b o s s e s a r e d r iv i n g t h e m a n i p u l a ti o n o f t h e te n d e r
e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s a n d w h y i s t h e q u e s ti o n . ”
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

W e r e y o u a w a r e o f th is

le t t e r b e f o r e i t w a s p r o v i d e d t o y o u b y M s D i s e b o M o e p h u li ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o C h a ir. T h e fir s t ti m e I c a m e
a c r o s s t h i s l e tt e r w a s w h e n I w a s g iv e n i t b y M s M o e p h u li a s t h e C C R O .
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t d i d y o u m a k e o f th is l e t te r

w h e n y o u w e r e p r o v id e d a c o p y o f i t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t h i n k t h e fir s t th in g C h a ir

b e c a u s e o f m y d i s c o m f o r t r ig h t t h r o u g h th e p r o c e s s i t d i d a c t u a lly s t a r t
m a k i n g m e m o r e a le r t t o s c r u t in is e a n d t o u n d e r s ta n d a n d I s ta r t e d
f e e li n g lik e p e r h a p s th e r e a r e s o m e p o i n t s w h ic h a r e w r it t e n in w h i te
in k b e c a u s e y o u c a n n o t r e a d t h e m a n y w h e r e t h a t I s h o u l d b e a w a r e o f
b u t i f a n y t h in g it m a d e m e c o n f id e n t t h a t m y s e n s e th a t t h e r is k s a s
a p p li e d w e r e p o s t a n d w e r e n o t a s m a t e r i a l . I t s t a r t e d m a k in g a b i t o f
s e n s e a n d g iv in g m e a l i t tl e b i t o f c o n fi d e n c e b e c a u s e i n i ti a lly I w a s
20

r e a l ly i n a – i n a s p in b e c a u s e I w a s n o t s u r e w h e th e r I w a s s e e i n g
t h i n g s o r w h e t h e r my n e w n e s s w a s p l a y in g g a m e s w i th m y m in d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

R e f e r e n c e is m a d e t o th e w o r d

“ b o s s e s ” i n t h i s le t t e r. I n y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g w h o m i g h t “b o s s e s ” h a v e
been referring?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S o C h a i r “b o s s e s ” i n m y o w n

Page 152 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
in t e r p r e t a ti o n – I w a s a ls o a b o s s a n d I t h in k i t w a s c o n f u s i n g b e c a u s e
I d i d n o t w a n t a n y t h i n g o f a n y b o d y.

I j u s t w a n te d to b e o b j e c t iv e .

H o w e v e r e v e n th o s e w h o w e r e m e m b e r s o f t h e G LT w h ic h w a s c a ll e d
t h e G r o u p L e a d e r s h i p Te a m a n d y o u c a n r e a d i n t o t h a t a s th e G r o u p
E X C O o f Tr a n s n e t .

T h e y w o u l d b e b o s s e s a s w e ll b u t t h e s u b

c o m m i t t e e s o f t h e B o a r d a s w e ll w o u l d b e b o s s e s b e c a u s e – a n d o f
c o u r s e t h e B o a r d o f Tr a n s n e t w o u l d b e b o s s e s a s w e ll . S o t h e w h o l e
E x e c u t iv e l a y e r w o u l d b e b r a n d e d b o s s e s - i n m y v i e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e – i t w o u ld a p p e a r t h e e n d o f th a t l e t te r t h a t i t
10

c a m e fr o m e m p l o y e e s o f Tr a n s n e t if w h a t t h e y w r o t e is tr u e .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t w o u l d a p p e a r C h a ir t h a t i t

c a m e fr o m t h e e m p l o y e e s o f Tr a n s n e t i n p a r t ic u l a r i t c a m e fr o m o f th e
s o m e C r o s s F u n c ti o n a l Ev a l u a ti o n Te a m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W h o w e r e a c t u a ll y k in d o f fo r c e d
to vote …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

And

to

recommend

certain

things …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
to.

B e c a u s e th e b o s s e s to l d t h e m

S o t h e b o s s e s w o u ld n o t h a v e t o l d t h e m t o s o m e o n e w h o w a s

e x t e r n a l.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t h a d t o b e s o m e o n e fr o m

Page 153 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
Tr a n s n e t .
CHAIRPERSON:

H m a n d w h e n r e a d i n g th e l e tt e r a n d k n o w in g th e

d is c u s s io n a t th e m e e ti n g a t w h ic h y o u w e r e r a is i n g y o u r r e s e r v a t i o n s
a b o u t t h e a p p r o v i n g t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n d o y o u t h in k t h a t s o m e o f t h e
p e o p l e w h o w r o t e t h e l e tt e r m a y h a v e b e e n in t h a t m e e ti n g o r n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir …
CHAIRPERSON:

I h e a r th e y t a l k a b o u t m e e ti n g s w h e r e t h e y w e r e

f o r c e d t o v o t e b u t it c o u l d b e o th e r m e e ti n g s o f c o u r s e .
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir I d o n o t th i n k t h e y w o u l d

h a v e b e e n i n m y m e e t in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n i n t h a t m e e t in g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o .
CHAIRPERSON: They - they must be talking about other meetings?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O t h e r m e e t i n g s a s w e l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Thank you.

A r o u n d th is t i m e w e r e

y o u i n v it e d b y M r S iy a b o n g a G a m a t o a m e e ti n g a f te r h o u r s a t a l l ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
20

Ye s C h a ir I w a s i n v i t e d b y

M r G a m a t o a m e e t in g i n Tin ts w a l o H o t e l .
CHAIRPERSON: What hotel?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ti n t s w a l o H o t e l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t is i n S u n n i n g h i ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h e n i n r e la t io n to y o u r b e c o m i n g a w a r e o f t h i s

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
le t t e r w a s t h a t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

N o C h a ir i t is n o t e v e n r e l a te d

to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t r e l a te d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

P l e a s e e x p l a i n th e c ir c u m s ta n c e s

u n d e r w h ic h y o u w e r e i n v i t e d t o th is m e e ti n g .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o C h a ir w h ils t t h e w h o le …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m – I a m s o r r y. I f t h a t q u e s ti o n is ta k i n g y o u to a
m e e ti n g w i th a Mr G a m a t h a t i s u n r e l a t e d t o t h is l e t te r …
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u l d w a n t fir s t to k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d , w h a t d i d

y o u d o a f te r b e c o m i n g a w a r e o f t h is l e tt e r a n d d o y o u k n o w w h e t h e r
a n y s t e p s w e r e ta k e n b y a n y b o d y i n c l u d i n g y o u r s e lf t o a c t o n i ts
c o n te n ts .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

O k a y.

S o C h a ir in Tr a n s n e t

t h e r e is a – t h e r e i s a h o tli n e – I d o n o t k n o w w h y I h a v e f o r g o t t e n th e
n a m e o f t h e h o tl in e – b u t a h o t li n e w h e r e p e o p l e c a n a n o n y m o u s l y
20

r e g is t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : R e p o r t is s u e s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S u s p ic i o u s

c o r r u p ti o n

or

r is k i n g

be

a n y th in g …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

T hat

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without

to

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
v ic ti m i s e d a n d th is l e t t e r w a s n o t s e n t t o t h a t h o t li n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

T h i s le t t e r w a s g iv e n to o n e o f

t h e E x e c u t iv e s w h ic h i s M s M o e p h u l i . S o M s M o e p h u l i l o o k e d a t i t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t i s a t e n d e r t h a t p e r ta in s to m y
b u s i n e s s u n i t . S h e g iv e s it t o m e t o s h a r e a n d I s a y to h e r s o w h a t is
going to happen.

S o s h e r e s p o n d e d t o t h e a n o n y m o u s e m a il to s a y I

a m a v a il a b l e to d is c u s s fu r t h e r b u t s h e a l s o g a v e i t to t h e I n t e r n a l A u d i t
10

S e c t io n o f Tr a n s n e t s o t h a t th e y c a n s t a r t t h e f o r e n s ic s . A s Ex e c u ti v e s
– a s a n E x e c u t iv e w e a r e a ll o w e d t o a c t u a ll y i n s t it u t e a fo r e n s ic
p r o c e s s a s a n d w h e n y o u d e e m e d i t w a s n e c e s s a r y.

Of course you

w o u ld l e t t h e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e k n o w t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g t o d o t h a t .
S o s h e a c t u a ll y u n d e r to o k t h a t p r o c e s s a n d m a d e s u r e t h a t in t e r n a l
a u d it t o g e t h e r w i t h th e f o r e n s ic a u d i to r s w i ll a c t u a ll y i n v e s t ig a t e t h is
le t t e r f u r t h e r b u t n o t h i n g c a m e o u t o f i t b e c a u s e a s I l e a r n t la t e r t h a t
f o r e n s ic p r o c e s s w a s s to p p e d f o r o n e r e a s o n o r th e o th e r a n d s o s h e
n e v e r k n e w th e o u tc o m e o f t h e l e tt e r a n d s o I n e v e r k n e w t h e o u tc o m e
of the letter too.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay thank you.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m – I a m h o p i n g t h a t s o m e w h e r e s o m e b o d y w il l t e l l
m e m o r e a b o u t w h o s to p p e d th a t i n v e s t ig a t io n a n d w h y. S o …

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I w il l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : E i t h e r t h e r e i s a n e x is t i n g w i t n e s s w h o w il l d e a l w i th
t h a t o r i f n o t s t e p s s h o u l d b e t a k e n t o tr y a n d g e t c l a r i f ic a ti o n .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : N o t e d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

G o in g b a c k t o t h e in v i t e t o t h e

m e e ti n g b y M r S iy a b o n g a G a m a a t Ti n ts w a l o H o t e l .

Please describe

t h e c ir c u m s t a n c e s , t h e t i m e o f d a y a n d t h e r e a s o n s w h y th is p a r t ic u l a r
m e e ti n g – w h y y o u w e r e in v i t e d t o th is p a r t ic u l a r m e e t i n g .
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o C h a ir a r o u n d t h i s ti m e b e f o r e
M r G a m a c a l le d m e t o a m e e t i n g w e w e r e o u t in E s s e le n P a r k w h ic h i s
a c a m p u s o f Tr a n s n e t a n d t h e t e n s i o n s a b o u t th e te n d e r w e r e p la y i n g
o u t b e c a u s e h e w a s a w a r e t h a t a s E x e c u ti v e s w e w e r e n o t a g r e e i n g .
R e m e m b e r C h a ir I a m t h e b u s i n e s s o w n e r r u n n i n g I T. M r G a r r y P i ta is
t h e b u s in e s s h e a d h e a d i n g u p p r o c u r e m e n t. S o – s o w e w e r e c o m i n g
w i t h d i ff e r e n t r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s fo r o n e r e a s o n o r t h e o t h e r t h a t I h a v e
e x p l a i n e d e a r li e r a n d I w a s q u i t e c o n v i n c e d a n d I w a s q u i t e r e s o l u t e
t h a t m y v i e w is c o r r e c t u n ti l s o m e o n e s h o w s m e m y b l in d s p o t w h ic h I
w a s n o t h a v i n g a t t h e ti m e a n d s o w e – w e fi n i s h e d . It w a s o u r E X C O .

20

W e fi n i s h e d a n d I th i n k o n o r a r o u n d h a l f p a s t s e v e n b e f o r e e ig h t i n t h e
e v e n i n g M r G a m a c a ll e d m e a n d s a i d M a k a n o c a n w e j u s t h a v e a
m e e ti n g – m e e t i n Ti n ts w a l o b e c a u s e I l iv e i n th a t a r e a C h a ir a n d I
w e n t t o t h e m e e t in g .

It w a s - i t w a s d a r k a lr e a d y a n d I w e n t t o

Tin ts w a l o a n d – a n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is is a f t e r w o r k ?

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h i s is a f t e r w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

W h ic h i s n o t u n c o m m o n C h a ir.

Just, ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . R o u n d a b o u t w h a t ti m e ( i n te r v e n e s ) ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: R o u n d a b o u t b e fo r e b e t w e e n h a l f
s e v e n a n d e ig h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a , in t h e e v e n i n g . S o I – I a l s o
10

c a l l e d M s M o e p h u l i j u s t to m a k e h e r a w a r e t h a t l o o k I a m g o i n g t o
m e e ti n g w i th M r G a m a . I th i n k t h e r e a r e s o m e i s s u e s th a t h e w o u l d l ik e
t o – t o a c t u a ll y u n d e r s t a n d fr o m m e . I d o n o t k n o w w h a t . S o w h e n w e
g o t – w h e n I g o t t o Tin t s w a l o I g o t th e r e a n d u s u a l ly I s e e t h e d r iv e r s
a n d I k n o w t h a t I’ m a t t h e r i g h t p l a c e a n d I c o u l d n ’ t f in d a n y b o d y a n d I
w a s l o o k in g a n d a t t h e e n d I f o u n d M r G a m a s i t ti n g a l o n e , y o u k n o w
a n d th e C h a ir s t h e r e a r e q u i t e lo n g s o y o u w o n ’ t a c t u a l ly b e v i s i b l e
fr o m t h e d o o r s o I t h o u g h t t h e w h o l e r o o m w a s e m p ty, s o I ’ m l o o k i n g
a n d I’ m n o t f in d in g h i m b u t f in a l ly I s e e h i m a n d h e ’s s it t i n g t h e r e a n d
h e ’s w a i t in g f o r m e , b u t m a y b e b e c a u s e h e ’s a s h o r t m a n , h is h e a d w a s

20

ju s t u p t o h e r e t o t h e c h a ir a n d

s o I , g o o d e v e n in g s ir a n d

h e th e n

s a i d lo o k M a k a n o I ju s t w a n t t o u n d e r s t a n d th a t o n e , y o u a r e c o n v i n c e d
t h a t y o u r d e c is i o n a b o u t T- S y s t e ms is t h e r ig h t o n e , t w o , r e m e m b e r
p r o c u r e m e n t i s d a n g e r o u s , it ’s a v e r y d a n g e r o u s p r o c e s s .

If, for

e x a m p l e y o u s c u t t le a p a r ty w h i c h b y n o w p e o p l e w o u l d h a v e s h a r e d ,
m a y b e fi v e m i ll i o n , fi v e m i ll i o n , f iv e m il l io n a n d y o u c o m e a n d y o u

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s c u t tl e t h a t p a r t y, y o u w o u ld h a v e e n d a n g e r e d y o u r li f e s o a r e y o u s u r e ,
a r e y o u c e r t a in h a v e y o u d o n e y o u r d u e d i li g e n c e i n t e r m s o f
in t e r r o g a ti n g t h i s p r o c e s s , a r e y o u c o m f o r t a b l e in te r ms o f w h e r e y o u
a r e g o i n g to l a n d b e c a u s e I’ d li k e to m a k e y o u s e n s i ti v e , a s a n e w
p e r s o n t o t h e d a n g e r s o f p r o c u r e m e n t a s w e ll . A n d I s a i d t o h i m y e s , I
c a n a c tu a l ly d e li b e r a te a n d t a l k t o e v e r y p o i n t t h a t I ’v e r a is e d s o I’ m
q u i te c o m f o r ta b le a n d y o u c a n a ls o b e c o m f o r t a b l e th a t I ’v e d o n e a d u e
p r o c e s s . T h a t m e e ti n g w e n t o n a n d o n a n d C h a ir, w h e n I l o o k e d b a c k
w e s p e n t a b o u t t w o a n d a h a l f h o u r s in t h a t m e e t i n g b u t t h e m a in t h i n g
10

r e a l ly w a s t o s e e i f I w a s q u i t e c e r ta in a b o u t i t b u t I f e l t lik e i t w e n t
r o u n d a n d r o u n d I w a s n ’ t s u r e i f I w a s m is s i n g a p o i n t b u t t h e m a in
p o i n t s w e r e t h o s e , a r e y o u c e r t a i n a n d a r e y o u c o m f o r t a b le , w il l t h is
stand any test and I said yes it can.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t w a s y o u r i m m e d i a te r e a c ti o n w h e n y o u m a d e

t h e s e – w h e n h e a s k e d y o u th e s e q u e s ti o n ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

C h a ir a l o t o f th i n g s c a m e to m y m i n d

t h a t o n e , i s i t a c c e p ta b le fo r u s t o b e o b j e c t iv e b e c a u s e I t h i n k w e h a v e
a r o l e , w e h a v e a r e s p o n s i b il it y a s a l e a d e r s h i p t o e n s u r e e q u i ty, t o
a p p ly o u r m i n d t o r e a d e v e r y t h i n g a n d to a c t u a ll y m a k e t h e r i g h t
20

d e c is i o n b e c a u s e I t h i n k b a d t h i n g s h a p p e n w h e n w r o n g d e c i s i o n s a r e
m a d e . S o I b e g a n t o s t a r t d o u b t in g t o s a y, is h e n o t c o n f i d e n t i n w h a t
I’ m s a y i n g o r a r e th e r e o t h e r th in g s t h a t I h a v e t o b e a w a r e o f t h a t I’ m
n o t a w a r e o f . S o i t d i d – i t d i d r a t tl e m e t o s t a r t s a y i n g , w h a t is i t th a t
I’ m m i s s i n g b e c a u s e h e i s – h e ’s my b o s s s o is h e s e e i n g th i n g s t h a t
I’ m n o t s e e i n g , i t d i d c h a l le n g e my c o n f i d e n c e b u t a ls o i t c h a l l e n g e d

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t h e e n v ir o n m e n t t h a t I’ m w o r k in g i n b e c a u s e i f h e ’s s a y in g i t ’s
d a n g e r o u s , i s i t d a n g e r o u s , y o u k n o w.

Is i t a b o u t , i f y o u d o n ’ t a w a r d

t h is – i f y o u d o n ’ t a w a r d to M r A a n d y o u a w a r d to M r B , i s th e r e a n y
d a n g e r th a t y o u h a v e t o – is it n o t j u s t s e e n a s , i n th e li n e o f d u ty n o t
t o a c t u a l ly – s o m y m i n d w e n t i n t o a w h ir lw in d b u t a t t h e e n d o f th e d a y,
I t h i n k m y d e c is i o n s ti ll s t o o d a n d s a id , l o o k , I c a n ’ t s e e i t a n y o t h e r
w a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

B y t h a t t i m e d i d y o u k n o w w h e t h e r h e h a d r e c e iv e d

a n d r e a d t h e m e m o t h a t y o u h a d g iv e n t o h is b u s i n e s s m a n a g e r ?
10

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

N o C h a ir I d id n ’t k n o w a c t u a ll y I ’v e

n e v e r …( i n t e r v e n ti o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d fr o m t h is d is c u s s io n y o u d i d n ’ t p ic k i t u p ?

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

N o b u t b e c a u s e I ’v e a l w a y s e x p l a in e d

t o h i m t h a t t h is r is k s a r e mi s p l a c e d a n d t h e y a r e m o s tl y i m m a t e r i a l I
t h i n k h e c o u ld h a v e p ic k e d it u p fr o m t h o s e c o n v e r s a t i o n s b u t I w o u l d n ’ t
k n o w w h e t h e r h e a c t u a lly s a w th e m e m o t h a t I w r o te .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o w w e r e y o u r a t tl e d b y t h e r e f e r e n c e s t o ,

p r o c u r e m e n t is d a n g e r o u s a n d i f y o u s c u t t l e a t e n d e r t h a t y o u – c e r t a in
p e o p l e m a y h a v e a lr e a d y d iv id e d t h e p r o c e e d s a m o n g t h e m s e l v e s t h a t
20

c o u l d b e d a n g e r o u s , i s t h a t t h e t a lk t h a t r a t tl e d y o u o r is th e r e
s o m e t h i n g e ls e ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

I t h i n k C h a ir, t h e ta lk o v e r a ll r a tt l e d

m e . O n e , if y o u s a y t h a t p e o p l e b y n o w w o u l d h a v e s h a r e d fi v e m i ll io n
a n d fi v e m i ll io n a n d y o u w o u l d b e , i n d e e d c r u s h i n g s u c h a p a r ty, w h o
w o u ld th a t b e .

I w a s s t a r tl e d b y w o u l d i t b e p e o p l e t h a t I w o r k w i t h

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w o u ld i t b e s o m e b o d y fr o m o u ts id e is it a b o u t – is i t w h y w e h a d to
h a v e d r iv e r s a n d b o d y g u a r d s , y o u k n o w y o u s t a r t th i n k i n g a b o u t, is t h is
s a f e , is t h i s th e e n v ir o n m e n t I w a n t t o b e in b e c a u s e I ’ m n o t a
p r o c u r e m e n t p e r s o n I’ m a n I T o p e r a t o r a n d I w a n t t o s e e t h e i m p a c t b y
n o w I ’ m g o i n g t o e n d a n g e r m y w o r k a n d m y li f e w i t h th is p r o c u r e m e n t
p r o c e s s w h ic h i s – w h ic h r e a lly is j u s t a m e a n s t o my e n d . S o I t h i n k I
w a s r a t t le d b y th o s e s t a t e m e n t a n d w h a t t h e y c o u l d m e a n t o m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s w e ll n o w y o u ’v e ju s t c l a r i f ie d s o m e t h i n g , y o u

s a i d y o u w e r e r a t t le d b y th o s e s t a te m e n ts .
10

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

E a r l ie r o n y o u s a id b y th e w h o le t a lk a n d I w a s

w o n d e r i n g i f y o u m e a n t th e w h o l e d is c u s s io n b u t d o y o u m e a n t h o s e
p a r t ic u l a r s t a te m e n t s , t h a t ’s w h a t r a t tl e d y o u ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h o s e p a r ti c u l a r s t a t e m e n ts y e s C h a ir.

Ye s n o w d i d h e e n g a g e y o u o n t h i s o c c a s i o n o n th e

s o u n d n e s s o r o th e r w is e o f t h e r e a s o n s y o u g a v e f o r n o t a g r e e i n g t h a t
t h e s e w e r e g e n u in e r i s k s ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

C h a ir o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r e v e n i n g w e

d i d n ’ t g o i n t o t h e d e t a il o f a ll t h e r is k s o r a n y r is k s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

B u t d i d y o u g o i n to s o m e t o l o o k … ( i n t e r v e n t io n ) .

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

W e d i d n ’ t e v e n g o in t o s o m e h e w a s

ju s t s a y in g , a r e y o u s u r e , c a n I lo o k y o u in th e e y e a r e y o u c e r t a in i s
t h is r i g h t , t h a t ’s w h a t h e w a s s a y in g a n d a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e d a n g e r o f
g o i n g a g a in s t t h e t id e , s o r t o f .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e t h i s m e e t i n g h a d y o u h a d o c c a s io n to d is c u s s

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w i t h h i m y o u r r e a s o n s f o r ta k i n g a d i ff e r e n t v i e w h a d h e h a d th e b e n e f i t
o f h e a r in g w h a t y o u h a d to s a y e v e n if h e m i g h t n o t h a v e r e a d t h e
memo that you sent to him?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

Ye s C h a ir s o a s a m a n a g e r o f m i n e I

k e p t h i m a p p r a is e d a n d a b r e a s t o f d e v e lo p m e n t s a n d d is c u s s i o n a n d I
w o u ld s h a r e a n d I w o u ld s a y, l o o k th is is lo o k in g v e r y s tr a n g e , i t ’s n o t
making

10

sense

because

of

1 ,2 , 3 ,4 , 5

t h is

is

where

we

are

but

p r o c u r e m e n t w il l a c t u a ll y d o t h e s u b m i s s i o n I s u p p o s e .

S o y e s I d id

bring

e x a c tl y

him

in t o

that

d is c u s s io n

so

th a t

he

knows

the

d e v e l o p m e n ts t h a t w e r e h a p p e n i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

D i d h e e v e r d i s a g r e e w i t h y o u r r e a s o n in g o n t h o s e

o c c a s i o n s , d id h e e v e r s a y b u t n o y o u a r e n o t r i g h t o r I d o n ’ t s e e y o u r
p o i n t o r a n y th in g l ik e th a t ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o n o t t h a t I c a n r e c a ll C h a ir.

H e d i d n ’ t e n g a g e y o u in t h a t w a y ?

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

I n t h a t f a s h i o n , n o h e j u s t m o s tl y

t e s te d m y c o n v ic t io n o f m y s t a n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Now that memo that you signed – you sent under

d u r e s s , t h a t m e m o , i t w a s s ti ll – fr o m y o u i t w a s m e a n t to g o t o h i m a n d
20

M r P it a is t h a t r ig h t f o r th e m t o a l s o c o n s i d e r a n d i f t h e y a g r e e d to
s ig n ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u – d i d th e y, u l t i m a t e l y s i g n i t?

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

N o t t h a t p a r t ic u l a r o n e .

N o t t h a t p a r ti c u la r o n e ?

Page 162 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o C h a ir.

O k a y s o a t t h e ti m e w h e n y o u m e t w i th h i m a t t h e

h o t e l a s f a r a s y o u k n o w, y o u k n e w th e y h a d n o t s i g n e d ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

I wasn’t even aware that they had not

s ig n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

A t t h a t ti m e .

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

O h O k a y.

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
10

A t th a t ti m e .

I t w a s my u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t t h e y

w o u ld h a v e s e e n th e m e m o a n d h e w o u ld h a v e h e a r d m y o b j e c ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . W e r e y o u s t ill e x p e c ti n g s o m e e n g a g e m e n t

fr o m h i m o n y o u r r e s e r v a t i o n s a t th a t ti m e o r y o u c a n ’ t r e m e m b e r ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

I t h i n k C h a ir I a l w a y s e x p e c te d h i s

e n g a g e m e n t t o a c tu a lly d e c i d e o n t h e r i g h t r o u t e i f th e r e w e r e t w o
r o u t e s , I e x p e c te d h i m t o lo o k a t t h e t w o r o u t e o p t i o n s a n d s e e w h i c h
o n e i s t h e r i g h t o p ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Did you expect that since you were the – what do

y o u c a l l i t, t h e b u s in e s s o w n e r.
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Si n c e y o u w e r e t h e b u s in e s s o w n e r d id y o u e x p e c t

t h a t i f h e – s i n c e y o u e x p r e s s e d r e s e r v a ti o n s b e fo r e f i n a ll y d e c i d i n g
w h ic h w a y t o g o h e w o u l d e n g a g e y o u ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s I e x p e c te d h i m t o e n g a g e m e

C h a ir a s t h e o w n e r o f th e b u s i n e s s .

I a ls o e x p e c t e d p r o c u r e m e n t t o

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
e n g a g e m e f u r t h e r b e c a u s e I w a s t h e c li e n t i n th a t i n s t a n c e , t h e y h a d
t o p le a s e m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d n e it h e r e n g a g e d y o u ?

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

Procurement we engaged and we

n e v e r r e a l ly a g r e e d u n ti l w e m e t w i t h G a ji m a .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y.

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

A n d w i t h h i m w e c o n ti n u o u s ly j u s t

engaged.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s I ’ m – I f i n d th e f o c u s o f d is c u s s i o n i n y o u r

m e e ti n g w i t h h i m a l it t le s tr a n g e , h e w a s y o u r b o s s , y o u r e p o r t e d to h i m
is n ’ t i t ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

approving

And

or

not

approving

that

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t w a s p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u w a s p a r t o f y o u r j o b .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

And one would expect that as your boss he expected

y o u t o p e r fo r m t h a t fu n c t io n h o n e s t ly a n d t r u l y a n d n o t b e in f lu e n c e d b y
a n y f e a r o f a n y t h i n g , t h a t ’s w h a t I w o u l d e x p e c t , d i d y o u e x p e c t th e
same?
20

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

I e x p e c t e d t h e s a m e C h a ir.

A n d – b u t th a t d i s c u s s io n – th e q u e s t io n s h e a s k e d

y o u o r t h e q u e s ti o n a b o u t , y o u k n o w, d a n g e r o u s , t h is b e i n g d a n g e r o u s
a n d s o o n , i t c o u l d b e d a n g e r o u s i f p e o p l e h a v e a lr e a d y d iv i d e d a m o n g
t h e m s e l v e s w h o w ill g e t h o w m a n y m i ll io n s d o e s n ’ t a p p e a r t o m e t o b e
t h e k in d o f q u e s ti o n t h a t s h o u l d c o m e fr o m s o m e b o d y w h o e x p e c ts th e ir

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
s u b o r d in a t e t o j u s t d o t h e r i g h t t h i n g .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

I w o u l d a g r e e w it h th a t C h a ir, th a t ’s

w h y I f o u n d i t a li t t le b i t u n c o m f o r t a b l e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s a n d fr o m w h a t y o u h a v e t e s t i fi e d h e d id n ’t

e n g a g e y o u i n t h a t m e e ti n g o n t h e b a s is o f t h e m e r i ts o r d e m e r i ts o f
y o u r p o in ts ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

O r y o u r p o i n t o f v ie w.

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:
10

N o C h a ir.

N o C h a i r h e j u s t e n g a g e d m e o v e r a ll

in t e r m s o f th e o u tc o m e o f m y a s s e s s m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s a n d t h e r e h a d n e v e r b e e n a n y s e r i o u s

e n g a g e m e n t b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f y o u o n y o u r r e s e r v a ti o n s u p t o th a t
point?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

N o C h a ir, n o t r e a l ly e s p e c i a l ly i n t h a t

m e e ti n g i t w a s ju s t a b o u t th e d a n g e r s o f p r o c u r e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o f o r t w o – f o r m o r e o r l e s s tw o h o u r s b e c a u s e I

t h i n k y o u s a i d t h a t m e e t i n g to o k a b o u t t w o h o u r s – m o r e o r l e s s t w o
h o u r s h e e n g a g e d y o u o n li t e r a l ly t h e d a n g e r s o f p r o c u r e m e n t.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:
20

Ye s C h a ir a n d h o w p e o p l e w o u ld

b e h a v e a n d y o u k n o w w h a t it w o u l d m e a n i f y o u d o th is a n d i f y o u d o
t h a t a n d a r e y o u s u r e a n d y e s , th a t ’s w h y I s a y i t w a s o n e o f th e
w e ir d e s t m e e ti n g s b e c a u s e i t t o o k s o lo n g w h e n I c h e c k e d n o w b u t a ll
w e d i s c u s s e d r e a l ly w a s to o t h in g s , a r e y o u s u r e a n d d o y o u k n o w t h e
d a n g e r s o f p r o c u r e m e n t i f y o u s c u tt l e a p a r ty. S o j u s t i n s u m m a r y f o r
t h o s e t w o h o u r s t h a t is w h a t w e d i d .

Page 165 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON:

D id y o u s u b s e q u e n tl y h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty to

a n a ly s e t h is m e e t in g a n d t h e d is c u s s i o n a n d tr y a n d s e e w h a t y o u c o u l d
m a k e o f i t o r n o t r e a l ly ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

C h a ir I t r ie d t o a n a ly s e i t , I t r i e d – I

w e n t o v e r t h e m e e ti n g , o v e r a n d o v e r – o v e r t h e d is c u s s io n s o v e r a n d
o v e r a g a in t o s e e i f m a y b e I w a s b e in g a l it t le b it b lo n d e a n d I w a s n o t
u n d e r s t a n d in g c e r ta in th i n g s a n d I c o u l d n ’ t – I c o u l d n ’ t la y m y h a n d s o n
something.
CHAIRPERSON:
10

W h a t w o u l d y o u – w h a t w o u l d b e y o u r a n s w e r if

s o m e b o d y a s k e d y o u , o n y o u r a n a ly s is w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f th a t
m e e ti n g ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

I f s o m e b o d y a s k e d m e , I w o u l d g iv e

t w o v i e w s , o n e , e i th e r t h a t h e w a s a c tu a l l y t e s t in g a s a n e w e x e c u t iv e
t o Tr a n s n e t w h e t h e r I w o u l d d o d u e p r o c e s s a n d w h e t h e r I c a n s t a n d
e v e n w h e n i ts d i ff ic u l t to a n d s t a n d u p t o a n y q u e s t io n i n g o r
in t e r r o g a ti o n . W h a t w a s n o t a c t u a l ly c o m f o r ta b le f o r m e w a s t o h a v e i t
in a h o t e l b e c a u s e a s m y b o s s w e c a n h a v e i t a n y w h e r e , w e c a n h a v e i t
in th e o ff ic e b u t p e r h a p s it w a s a f t e r h o u r s r i g h t s o a n d m a y b e h e
w a n t e d t o p u t it t o b e t h a t d a y b e c a u s e I k n o w w e h a d a n E x c o m e e ti n g
20

t h a t d a y.

S o I t h i n k f o r m e t h a t w a s t h e fir s t p a r t t o s a y, I w i s h w e

c o u l d d is c u s s t h i s m o r e in t h e o ffic e p e r h a p s e v e n i n E x c o to s a y c a n
y o u j u s t s h a r e w i t h u s y o u r c o n v ic ti o n , t h is r i s k s w e ’r e a ll r e s p o n s i b l e
f o r th is r is k s c a n y o u j u s t ta k e u s t h r o u g h a n d c a n w e j u s t e n g a g e w i t h
y o u r v ie w s . S o I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t s o th e c a l l a t t h e h o te l w a s
n o t s o m e t h i n g I w a s u s e d t o . I e n j o y f a m i l y l i fe a n d I e n j o y g o in g h o m e

Page 166 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
s o w h e n y o u t a k e m e o u t o f m y fa m i ly i t ’s n o t o n e o f th e m o s t p le a s a n t
t h i n g s t h a t I e n j o y a n d th e n t h e s e c o n d th i n g , I t h i n k f o r m e w h e n I l o o k
a t i t , I ’ m t h i n k in g p e r h a p s t h e r e ’s t o o m u c h m is tr u s t r i g h t t h r o u g h
Tr a n s n e t , is i t p o s s ib l e t h a t I’ m a l s o g e t ti n g s o m e 5 m il li o n a n d f r o m
s o m e o n e . W a s h e te s t i n g w h e t h e r, a r e y o u in t h is p a r t y w it h s o m e o n e
e ls e a n d i f y o u a r e c a n w e s e e i f w e c a n d e a l w i th y o u . S o t h o s e w e r e
t h e t w o t h i n g s , is it s o m e t h i n g t h a t h e w a s t e s ti n g o r – s o t h o s e w e r e
t h e t w o a n d I n e v e r g o t a n a n s w e r a n d I n e v e r r e a l ly a s k e d h i m , j a .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

O k a y, t h a n k y o u – t h a n k y o u .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

M s M o s i d i , h o w d i d t h a t m e e ti n g

end?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

T h a t m e e ti n g – n o i t e n d e d li k e th a t

C h a ir w h e r e I t h i n k I h a d c l a r i f ie d t o h i m a n d h o w h e h a d a l s o a ir e d h is
v ie w s a n d I w a s n ’ t s u r e w h e t h e r I ’ d c o n v i n c e d h i m t o t h e e n d b u t w h e r e
I h a d g iv e n m y v ie w s a n d h e h a d g iv e n m e h is c a u t i o n a r y n o te s a n d I
a c t u a ll y g o t i n t o m y c a r a n d w e n t h o m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

I – p a r t o f w h a t is e x e r c is in g in m y m in d a b o u t t h e

m e e ti n g a n d t h e q u e s ti o n s h e p u t to y o u a n d t h e f a c t t h a t h e w a s n o t
e n g a g i n g y o u o n th e m e r i ts o f y o u r v i e w s o n t h e te n d e r is , i f h e – i f h e
20

w a s a s k i n g a s I u n d e r s ta n d h e w a s w h e t h e r y o u w e r e n o t s c a r e d t h a t
y o u c o u l d b e h a r m e d b e c a u s e o f t h e d e c is i o n o r t h e s t a n d y o u t o o k ,
t h a t ’s p a r t o f w h a t I ’ m p u t t i n g t o th e d i s c u s s i o n b u t y o u c a n t e l l m e
whether you think it is a correct understanding.
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

I f t h a t ’s p a r t o f w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g t o y o u , w h a t w a s

Page 167 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
h e g o i n g to s a y i f y o u s a id a c t u a l ly I d i d n ’ t t h i n k o f i t , n o w t h a t y o u s a y
it I’ m s c a r e d .

N o w l e t ’s s t a r t w i th w h e t h e r y o u t h in k w h a t m y

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f p a r t o f w h a t y o u ’r e s a y i n g is c o r r e c t ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

P e r h a p s C h a ir, h e w o u l d h a v e s a id ,

lo o k – i f I h a d s a i d I d i d n ’ t r e a lly a p p ly m y m in d I’ m n o t q u i t e c o n fi d e n t
a n d p e r h a p s m y c o n v i c ti o n w i ll n o t s t a n d t h e t e s t o f i n te r r o g a ti o n ,
p e r h a p s h e w o u l d h a v e a d v is e d m e t o s a y, I t h in k t h e m id d le r o u te f o r
y o u , w h ic h is s a f e , is th is , p e r h a p s h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n e x e c u ti v e o v e r
me and perhaps he would have been a manager and said, look for your
10

s a f e t y a n d fo r t h is p r o c e s s to c o n c l u d e i n a m a n n e r t h a t i t ’s g o in g t o b e
a c c e p ta b l e b y a l l , t h i s is t h e r o u t e w e n e e d to ta k e , p e r h a p s h e w a s
g o i n g t o g iv e t h a t c o u n s e l f o r m y s a f e ty.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t w h a t – if y o u – y o u r p o s it i o n w a s , I t h i n k i t ’s

c o r r e c t b u t I a m s c a r e d , I ’v e g o t k i d s o r w h a te v e r th e p o s i ti o n , I ’ m
s c a r e d , b u t th e r e ’s a c e r ta i n e le m e n t o f s p e c u la t io n b u t it ’s a n
e n d e a v o u r t o t r y a n d u n d e r s t a n d w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g w a s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

Why

Ye s C h a ir.

were

you

asked

those

questions

in

c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e t h e – y o u h a d m a d e y o u r p o s it i o n q u i te c le a r e v e n
20

t h o u g h y o u d e c i d e y o u h a d r e c o r d e d y o u r r e s e r v a ti o n s b u t i n a d d it i o n
y o u h a d w r i t te n s o m e t h i n g q u i t e d e ta il e d t o i n d ic a te y o u r s i tu a ti o n .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

C h a ir I th i n k i t ’s a s i tu a ti o n w e ’l l

n e v e r b e a b l e t o a n s w e r 1 0 0 % w e ’ ll a l w a y s s p e c u la t e a b o u t w h a t i t
c o u l d h a v e b e e n b e c a u s e q u i t e f r a n k l y n o t h in g e v e r s c a r e d m e .
P e r h a p s n o w l o o k in g b a c k b u t th e n I w a s s ti ll e x c it e d I w a s s t ill h o t a n d

Page 168 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w a n ti n g t o d o t h i n g s c o r r e c t ly. S o p e r h a p s a t t h a t t i m e I h a d n o fe a r a t
a l l b u t a f t e r h e m e n t io n e d i t I s t a r te d l o o k in g a r o u n d my s e l f b e c a u s e I
n e v e r – j a I n e v e r a c t u a lly e v e n t h o u g h t I n e e d e d a b o d y g u a r d o r
s o m e t h i n g – I’ m o n e o f t h e e x e c u tiv e s w h o d i d n ’ t h a v e a d r iv e r o r a
b o d y g u a r d , o u t o f c h o ic e o f c o u r s e I n e v e r r e a lly w a n t e d – b u t a ft e r
t h a t I s ta r t e d t h i n k in g , is t h i s s o m e t h i n g t h a t I n e e d t o c o n s i d e r.

So

y e s C h a ir w e ’l l n e v e r b e a b l e t o a n s w e r it 1 0 0 % f u ll y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s t h a n k y o u .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ms Mosidi on

p a r a g r a p h 3 0 t o 3 2 w h i c h is p a g e s 11 a n d 1 2 y o u t a lk a b o u t t h e
p r o c e s s t h a t w a s e n g a g e d u p o n t o m it i g a t e t h e r is k s w i t h G a j i m a
b e c a u s e t h e f o l lo w in g t h e n e x t – a t th a t p a r ti c u la r s t a g e , i t w a s d u r i n g
D e c e m b e r o f 2 0 1 6 t h a t y o u w e r e t h e n c a ll e d to t h e o ffi c e o f M r
S iy a b o n g a G a m a , c a n y o u p le a s e j u s t g i v e d e t a i ls o f th e r e a s o n s f o r
t h e in v i t e a n d t h e p r o c e s s t h a t s u b s e q u e n t ly f o ll o w e d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

S o i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 6 C h a ir, Mr G a m a

c a l l e d m e a n d M r E d w a r d T h o m a s t o h is o ffic e w h e r e h e w a s tr y i n g to
g e t u s to a r e s o l u ti o n o f th is w h o le t e n d e r p r o c e s s a n d … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d M r T h o m a s p o s i t io n a g a in is w h a t i ts m e n t io n e d

e a r l ie r.
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

Was he under Mr Pita?

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

M r is G r o u p S u p p l y C h a i n O ffic e r.

H e w a s u n d e r M r P it a .

Okay thank you.

Page 169 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

B u t h e w a s t h e G r o u p ( i n d is t in c t )

C h i e f O ff ic e r o f Tr a n s n e t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o Mr G a m a c a ll e d u s to h is o ffic e

a n d a d v is e d th a t m e a s a b u s i n e s s o w n e r s h o u ld b e g iv e n a n
o p p o r t u n i ty, C h a ir

to interrogate

G a j i m a a n d t h e ir r is k s a n d

to

u n d e r s t a n d i n th e a u d i e n c e o f p r o c u r e m e n t a s w e l l h o w t h e y p l a n n e d to
m i ti g a te t h e ir r is k s a n d h e a c tu a l ly m a d e s u r e t h a t , t h a t w h o l e p r o c e s s
h a p p e n s w i th in t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s s o t h a t I ju s t d o n ’ t s t a n d u p
10

a l o n e to g o a n d d is c u s s w i t h G a ji m a .

So he asked Mr Edward to

c o m p il e t h e q u e s ti o n s t o w r i t e t h e c o m m u n ic a ti o n to G a ji m a t o i n v it e
t h e m t o t h a t s e s s io n w i th th o s e q u e s ti o n s .

S o h e a c t u a l ly a s k e d Mr

E d w a r d T h o m a s t o f a c il it a t e t h a t p r o c e s s a n d th e m e e t in g C h a ir, w a s
fi n a l ly c a l le d f o r t h e 2 3 r d o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 7 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h o w a s a ll p r e s e n t a t t h a t

m e e ti n g ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o i n t h a t m e e ti n g , w h ic h w e h e l d i n

t h e Pr e to r i a o ffi c e s o f Tr a n s n e t E n g in e e r in g , fr o m Tr a n s n e t ’s s i d e i t
w a s m y s e l f a s th e b u s in e s s o w n e r, th e r e w a s M r M t s w e n i w h o w a s in
20

c h a r g e o f g o v e r n a n c e , th e r e w a s M r M a l u l e k a w h o w a s t h e c a t e g o r y
m a n a g e r, G r o u p S t r a t e g i c S o u r c in g a n d t h e n t h e r e w a s M r E d w a r d
T h o m a s h i m s e l f , th a t w a s th e Tr a n s n e t t e a m a n d fr o m G a j i m a I th in k i t
w a s th e w h o le e x e c u t iv e te a m t h a t c a m e t h r o u g h , I j u s t r e m e m b e r t h a t ,
M r G u m e t e th e C h a i r m a n w a s th e r e a n d h is C E O a n d h i s C O O w a s
t h e r e a n d a w h o l e lo t o f o th e r e x e c u t iv e s w e r e t h e r e a n d a l s o t h e r e w a s

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
I B M w h o w a s a p a r t n e r t o G a j i m a in t h i s t e n d e r a n d y e s m a y b e o t h e r
p e o p l e th a t I w a s n ’ t a w a r e o f b u t i t w a s q u i te a s i z e a b l e g r o u p o f
m a y b e 1 5 t o 1 8 p e o p l e fr o m G a ji m a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d w h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e o f t h is

m e e ti n g ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o t h is m e e t i n g – b e c a u s e w e h a d

s e n t q u e s t i o n s u p fr o n t t o G a ji m a th e y t h e n to o k u s r i g h t t h r o u g h t h e
q u e s t io n s

and

they

were

addressing

each

and

every

q u e s t io n … ( i n t e r v e n t i o n ) .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s l e t m e h e a r th e d is c u s s i o n a t th e m e e ti n g b e f o r e

t h e r e s o l u ti o n .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

O k a y s o C h a ir t h e r e w e r e q u e s t io n s

t h a t w e h a d s e n t to G a j i m a , m o s t o f t h e m w e r e p e r t a in in g to th o s e r i s k
q u e s t io n s t h a t w e r e r a is e d , l ik e f o r e x a m p l e t h e r e w a s o n e o n c u r r e n t
m o d e o f o p e r a t i o n a n d fi n a l m o d e o f o p e r a t i o n , w h i c h , i n i ti a lly I d id
e x p l a i n t o C h a ir t h a t w h e n y o u a r e t a l k in g G r e e n Fi e l d s , I w a s n ’ t
c o n v i n c e d t h a t i t m u s t c o m e i n t o p la y a t t h a t s t a g e b e c a u s e y o u w a n t
t o f in a lis e th is te n d e r a s G r e e n Fi e l d s a n d th e ir w e r e is s u e s a b o u t th e i r
c a p a c i ty a n d th e ir s k i ll . T h e r e w e r e is s u e s a b o u t h o w t h e y m a n a g e d t o
20

a c t u a ll y s h a v e o ff 5 0 0 m i lli o n w i t h o u t p u tt i n g Tr a n s n e t a t r i s k a n d
G a j i m a to o k u s t h r o u g h a ll th e p l a n s t h a t th e y h a d f o r e x a m p l e t h e y
s p o k e a b o u t h o w, a ft e r u n d e r s t a n d in g b e t t e r t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts o f
Tr a n s n e t t h e y w e r e a b le to s h a v e o ff fr o m I t h in k t h e y s a i d h e l p d e s k i n
t e r m s o f th e c o s t b e c a u s e h e lp d e s k y e s , it h a s i t ’s o w n c o s t s b u t y o u
c a n a ls o a u t o m a t e i t a s b e s t a s y o u c a n , s o I s u p p o s e th e y w e r e a b l e t o

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
d o s o m e o p ti m is a ti o n in th a t a r e a , b u t t h e y a ls o e x p l a i n e d – b e c a u s e
t h e r e w a s a b i g is s u e a b o u t h o w t h e d a t a c e n tr e w a s n o t o p e r a t io n a l
a n d h o w t h e le a d t i m e t o o r d e r t h e e q u i p m e n t w a s g o i n g to p o s e a s r i s k
t o Tr a n s n e t a n d t h e y a ls o e x p l a in e d t h a t t h e y h a v e n o w b r o u g h t t h e ir
p a r t n e r I B M w h o m u s t a c tu a lly g iv e a s s u r a n c e th a t t h e y h a v e n o w p r e o r d e r e d t h e d e v ic e s a n d t h e e q u ip m e n t t h a t w i ll b e r e q u ir e d t o a c t u a ll y
o p e r a ti o n a li s e t h e Tr a n s n e t e n v ir o n m e n t a n d a l l o w f o r t h e t r a n s i ti o n o f
Tr a n s n e t – fr o m T- Sy s te m s i n to G a j i m a . S o th e y w e r e v e r y d e ta il e d in
t e r m s o f h o w t h e y w e r e g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h e a c h a n d e v e r y r is k t h a t w e
10

r a i s e d a n d e v e r y e x e c u t iv e fr o m G a ji m a w h o w a s t h e r e , t h e y h a d
s o m e t h i n g th a t t h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly r e s p o n d i n g to a n d I t h i n k t h e y h a d
s tr u c t u r e d i t a c c o r d in g to t h e t o w e r s t h a t I s p o k e a b o u t e a r l ie r li k e
r e l a ti o n s h i p m a n a g e m e n t , h o w w e r e th e y g o i n g t o d o i t , h o w w e r e th e y
g o i n g to m a n a g e p r o je c t a n d s o o n . S o t h e m e e ti n g f o r m t h e ir s i d e w a s
q u i te d e t a i l e d i n t e r m s o f h o w t h e y w e r e r e s p o n d in g t o th a t a n d
s u b s e q u e n t t o t h e d is c u s s i o n s a s w e l l C h a ir, th e y w r o te t h a t fu ll
r e s p o n s e a n d I t h in k i t ’s s o m e w h e r e i n t h is m a n y fi le s w h e r e th e y
r e s p o n d e d to e a c h a n d e v e r y r i s k in w r i ti n g a s w e l l . A n d in t h a t m e e ti n g
t h e y a l s o r e q u e s t e d to r e c o r d t h e m e e t i n g t h e m s e lv e s a n d I r e m e m b e r

20

M r G u m e d e e v e n b e f o r e w e a n s w e r e d h e s a i d , o k a y th e r e i t is t h a t’s m y
r e c o r d i n g d e v ic e , y o u k n o w a n d h e w a s ( in d is ti n c t) s o m e t h in g lik e I
k n o w t h a t t h e s e t h i n g s g e t l o s t o r s o m e th i n g lik e t h a t , h e a c t u a lly m a d e
m e la u g h b u t h e d id a c t u a ll y r e c o r d t h e m e e ti n g h i m s e l f a s w e ll .
S o y e s t h e r e w e r e q u e s t i o n s , y e s w e d id a s k a f e w q u e s ti o n s
t o u n d e r s t a n d th e ir p o s it i o n a n d t h e ir p r e s e n ta t io n b u t a t t h e e n d o f i t

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
a l l o n c e w e h a d e x c u s e d t h e m , o n c e t h e y h a d a d d r e s s e d a ll t h e
q u e s t io n s , t h e y w e r e e x c u s e d a n d w e a l l a g r e e d t h a t , I t h in k , a l l th e
q u e s t io n s a n d a l l t h e r is k s h a v e b e e n a d d r e s s e d , t h e t a s t e o f t h is
p u d d i n g w il l b e i n th e e a t in g a t t h e e n d .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t a g r e e m e n t w a s th a t a ll t h e r is k is s u e s o f

c o n c e r n t h a t h a d b e e n s a ti s f a c t o r ily a d d r e s s e d ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

O k a y a n d th e p e o p le f r o m Tr a n s n e t w h o w e r e w it h

y o u , d id t h e y c h a l le n g e a n y o f th e t h i n g s b e i n g – a n y e x p l a n a t io n b e i n g
10

g iv e n b y G a ji m a ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ve r y m i n i m a l ly I c a n ’t e v e n r e m e m b e r

what it was.
CHAIRPERSON:

N o th i n g s e r io u s .

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h in g s e r i o u s r e a ll y.

Th a n k y o u .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u a n d s o i t i s y o u r

e v i d e n c e t h a t , t h a t m e e t in g t h e n c o n c lu d e d w i t h a l l r is k s b e i n g
m i ti g a te d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:
20

Ye s C h a i r t h a t w a s m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g

a n d th a t ’s h o w w e c o n c lu d e d t h e m e e t in g .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l is

Thank you.

it m i t ig a t e d o r

they were

explained

s a ti s f a c t o r ily ?
MS

MAKANO

MURIEL

MOSIDI:

s a ti s f a c t o r ily … ( in t e r v e n ti o n ) .

Page 173 of 223

Th e y

were

explained

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON:

Because the two don’t mean the same.

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e s a ti s f a c t io n o f Tr a n s n e t t e a m .

J a o k a y.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

O n p a g e 1 3 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t y o u

n o w a d d r e s s t h e t w o c o n f lic t in g r e c o m m e n d a t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I see that one of the persons who attended that

m e e ti n g , i f I u n d e r s t a n d c o r r e c t ly w a s Mr M a lu l e k a .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
CHAIRPERSON:
10

Ye s C h a i r th e o n e w i t h G a ji m a ?

J a t h e m e e ti n g w i th G a j i m a .

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e tw e e n Tr a n s n e t a n d G i ji m a .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I s th a t t h e s a m e M r M a l u l i w h o h a v e s a i d t o y o u a r e
y o u g o i n g to g o a g a i n s t y o u r s e l f?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a i r th a t i s t h e s a m e M r M a lu li .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t , t h a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t w a s a r o u n d Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 7 th a t

a n is s u e a r o s e i n r e l a ti o n t o t w o c o n fl ic t in g r e c o m m e n d a t i o n s .

What

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a r e y o u s p e c i fi c a ll y r e f e r r in g to ?
20

MS

MAKANO

MURIEL

M O S I D I:

So

C h a ir

the

is s u e

of

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n i t a l w a y s h a d t h is d u a l v ie w s , o n e r e c o m m e n d i n g t o
s y s te m s , a n d o n e r e c o m m e n d i n g G ij i m a , s o a ft e r w e h a d m e t w i t h
G ij i m a w e t h e n p u t t o g e t h e r a r e c o m m e n d a ti o n f o r t h e ir a w a r d w h ic h I
w a s c o m f o r t a b l e w i th , a n d C h a ir if y o u l o o k i n o n e o f t h e a n n e x u r e s
t h e r e is a m e m o t h a t h a s b e e n w r i t t e n a n d th e d i ff e r e n c e – t h e r e a r e

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t w o m e m o s , t h e d i ff e r e n c e w i t h t h e s e c o n d m e m o is t h a t I th e n in c l u d e d
t h a t p r o c e s s w h e r e w e m e t G i ji m a , b e c a u s e f o r m e i t w a s a n o ffic i a l
p r o c e s s t h a t a c t u a l ly c o n t r i b u t e d to u s u n d e r s t a n d in g t h e r is k s a n d h o w
t h e y w i ll b e m it i g a t e d b u t th e r e w a s t h e n a n o t h e r m e m o w h ic h M r P i t a
h a d w h ic h w a s r e c o m m e n d in g T- S y s te m s , s o w e w e r e h a v i n g t h e s e t w o
m e m o s , i t w a s t h e d u e d a t e fo r o n e m e m o t o g o t o – t o . .. ( i n te r v e n t io n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr G a m a .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

To g o to M r G a m a fo r h is a p p r o v a l s o

t h a t h e c a n s u b m i t t o t h e B A D C , a n d I r e m e m b e r w e w e r e i n E s s e ly n
10

P a r k , w e w e r e j u s t a b o u t t o s t a r t t h e E x c o m e e ti n g , a n d M r G a m a s a i d
y o u w i ll g iv e m e o n e – y o u a s e x e c u tiv e s w il l h a v e to s o r t it o u t , a n d
y o u w il l g i v e m e o n e m e m o t h a t I m u s t a c t u a lly g o w it h s o y o u a n d Mr
P i ta g o a n d s o r t y o u r s e l v e s o u t a n d I w a s e x p l a i n i n g t o Mr P i t a t o s a y
t h is is w h e r e I a m , t h is is t h e w o r k t h a t y o u ’v e d o n e , th is is a n d I s a y
w e w i ll a c t u a ll y g o a n d r e c o m m e n d G ij i m a b e c a u s e o f th e s e r e a s o n s
a n d I t h i n k a t t h e e n d C h a ir h e d id a g r e e a l t h o u g h I a l w a y s f e l t lik e
b e c a u s e th e m e m o ’s w e r e l a r g e ly d r a f t e d b y t h e p r o c u r e m e n t t e a m t h e
c o n te n ts w e r e l e a n i n g m o r e to w a r d s e le v a ti n g r is k s a n d a c t u a ll y
c r e a ti n g t h a t l i tt l e – e r o d i n g t h e c o n fi d e n c e o f w h a t h e w a s s a y i n g , b u t

20

a t th e e n d t h e r e c o m m e n d a t io n w a s c l e a r a n d w e e n d e d u p a g r e e i n g o n
t h e o n e m e m o , w h ic h w a s t o r e c o m m e n d G iji m a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

S o j u s t t o u n p a c k t h a t a li t tl e , t h e r e

w e r e t h e n tw o c o n f li c t i n g r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s , a n d c o n fl ic ti n g t o t h e
e x t e n t o f w h ic h c o m p a n y w a s b e in g r e c o m m e n d e d a s t h e p r e f e r r e d

Page 175 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
b i d d e r, i s t h a t r i g h t ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

So the one memorandum was

authored by who?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

So the one memorandum was

authored by myself.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And you recommended which

company?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
10

I w a s r e c o m m e n d i n g G i ji m a .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And the other memorandum was

authored by whom?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

I t w a s a u t h o r e d b y M r G a r y P i ta f o r

h is r e c o m m e n d in g T- S y s t e m s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d b y t h e d ir e c ti o n o f M r G a m a

a ft e r t h e d e l ib e r a ti o n s b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f a n d Mr P i ta th e o n e m e m o t h a t
w a s t h e n s e n t o n w a s r e c o m m e n d i n g G ij i m a ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

T h e m e m o w a s r e c o m m e n d i n g G ij i m a ,

t h e fi n a l m e m o .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r p a g e 8 6 .

C a n I a s k y o u to t u r n t o p a g e 7 6 ,

Th is m e m o r a n d u m i s u n s i g n e d a n d a t

p a r a g r a p h 4 8 it t a lk s t o t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o t h e G C E t o a p p r o v e t h e
a w a r d o f b u s i n e s s t o T- S y s te m s , w h o s e m e m o w o u ld t h i s h a v e b e e n ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Th is w o u l d h a v e – t h i s w o u l d h a v e

b e e n my m e m o C h a ir. N o , th is w o u ld h a v e b e e n M r G a r y P i ta ’s m e m o
C h a ir.

Page 176 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th a n k y o u , n o w i f y o u tu r n to p a g e

7 6 th e m e m o h o w e v e r is p r e p a r e d f r o m G a r y Pi t a , y o u r s e lf a n d E d w a r d
T h o m a s , a n d i t ’s a d d r e s s e d t o M r S iy a b o n g a G a m a .

A r e w e to

u n d e r s t a n d t h a t n o t w i t h s t a n d in g fr o m w h o m t h is m e m o w a s s e n t t h i s
was in fact your memorandum?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

C h a i r t h i s m e m o r a n d u m w h e r e T-

S y s t e ms w a s r e c o m m e n d c o u l d n ’ t h a v e b e e n m y m e m o .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , is i t n o t t h a t t h e y p r e p a r e d i t o r t h e y in c l u d e d

y o u r n a m e o n th e – i n th e h o p e t h a t t h e y w o u ld p e r s u a d e y o u a n d t h a t
10

– a n d th a t m a y b e th e y w e r e g o in g t o ta k e y o u r n a m e o u t i f y o u w e r e n o t
p e r s u a d e d ? B e c a u s e y o u t a lk a b o u t tw o m e m o s , s o o b v i o u s ly th e r e a r e
t w o m e m o s , e it h e r t h e y w i ll a ll g o o r t h e r e m i g h t s ti ll b e a p r o c e s s o f
d is c u s s io n . Yo u d o n ’ t k n o w ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

J a , I d o n ’ t k n o w b e c a u s e th is m e m o

p r o b a b ly c a m e a n d I w o u ld n ’ t h a v e a g r e e d t o s i g n t h i s p a r ti c u l a r m e m o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

S o b u t j u s t t h e w a y i t’s w r i t te n ,

p e r h a p s y e s i f I h a d s i g n e d i t th e n i t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t , t h a t it ’s fr o m th e
t h r e e o f u s , b u t c a n I v o i c e - o v e r a n d s a y t h e w a y t h a t m e m o is w r i t te n
20

o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d i t t h e n ju s t t o c o m e f r o m M r G a r y P i t a ,
b e c a u s e a s t h e h e a d o f – a s th e p e r s o n t h a t p r o c u r e m e n t is r e p o r ti n g
in t o w o u ld a ll h a v e s i g n e d h e r e a n d h e w o u l d h a v e j u s t s a i d g i v e n w h a t
I g o t fr o m m y P r o c u r e m e n t O ff ic e r I a m w r i ti n g th is t o y o u .

I t is

in c o n s is t e n t fo r m y n a m e t o b e a p p e a r i n g i n t h a t h e a d i n g o f “ fr o m ” , I

Page 177 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
d o u b t i f a l l t h e m e m o s a r e w r i t t e n li k e t h a t , I t h in k t h e y s h o u l d a c t u a l ly
c o m e fr o m M r Pi t a h i m s e l f .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
CHAIRPERSON:

C a n I . . .( i n t e r v e n t io n )

B o t t o m li n e is t h a t y o u s a y y o u d i d n ’ t g i v e a p p r o v a l

f o r a n a m e t o b e in c l u d e d i n th a t m e m o .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a ir I d id n ’t g iv e a p p r o v a l a n d

t h a t ’s w h y my s i g n a t u r e is n o t o n t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: And you were not party to it?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
10

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMB ER:

Thank you. Can I ask you then to

t u r n t o p a g e 8 8 , w h i c h a p p e a r s to b e t h e o t h e r m e m o r a n d u m f r o m M r
G a r y P i t a t o Mr S i y a b o n g a G a m a , a n d w h i l e h o ld i n g t h a t p a g e i f I c o u l d
a s k y o u t o t u r n to p a g e 1 0 8 , a n d a t p a r a g r a p h 8 3 o n p a g e 1 0 8 i t
records

the

recommends

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n
th e

award

of

th a t

th e

Group

Chief

Ex e c u ti v e

c o n tr a c t

to

G ij i m a

H o ld in g s

to

the

A c q u is i t io n s a n d D i s p o s a l s C o m m i t t e e f o r r e c o m m e n d a t i o n t o t h e
Tr a n s n e t B o a r d a n d a n a n c ill a r y r e c o m m e n d a t io n . W h o s e m e m o r a n d u m
w o u ld t h is h a v e b e e n ?
MS
20

MAKANO

MURIEL

MOSIDI:

T h is

would

have

been

my

m e m o r a n d u m C h a ir.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d s i m il a r ly a t th e s t a r t o f th e

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t h a s b e e n p r e p a r e d b y M r G a r y P i ta a n d y o u r n a m e
n o t r e fl e c t in g i n th is ?
CHAIRPERSON:

O h i t s a y s f r o m , m a y b e a d i s t i n c ti o n b e t w e e n fr o m

h i m a n d p r e p a r e d b y.

Page 178 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A p o lo g i e s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : P r e p a r e d b y m ig h t b e c o m p il e d b y a n d th e n s o m e b o d y
e ls e m i g h t th e n a d o p t i t a s h is o r h e r o w n , s o i t s a y s i t is fr o m h i m , t h a t
is Mr G a r y Pi t a , b u t th e w i t n e s s i s s a y i n g t h a t i t w a s h e r m e m o r a n d u m ,
b y w h ic h I t a k e i t y o u s a y y o u h a d c o m p il e d i t .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

Ye s C h a ir t h a t w o u ld g o w i th th e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t I w a s g o i n g w i th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t y o u s i m p ly n e e d e d t o r e f l e c t t h a t i t w a s fr o m
h i m , M r P i ta , b e c a u s e i t h a d t o c o m e fr o m h i m .
10

MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Fr o m t h a t P r o c u r e m e n t H e a d , y e s

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h e n c a n I a s k y o u

t o t u r n t o p a g e 11 0 o f t h e s a m e b u n d l e , a t w h ic h a m e m o a p p e a r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 102?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

11 0 .

C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 0 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I t ’s th e n e x t a n n e x u r e , A n n e x u r e 8 .

T h i s m e m o r a n d u m is fr o m M r G a r y P it a , t o Mr S i y a b o n g a G a m a , a n d
20

w h il s t h o l d i n g y o u r fi n g e r a t th a t p a r t ic u l a r p a g e , if y o u t u r n to p a g e
1 2 9 a t p a r a g r a p h 8 3 t h e r e a p p e a r s t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t t h e G r o u p
C h i e f E x e c u t iv e ( a ) r e c o m m e n d s t h e a w a r d o f c o n t r a c t t o t h e G i ji m a
Holdings

to

th e

A c q u is it i o n s

and

Disposal

Committee

for

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n to th e Tr a n s n e t B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s fo r a p p r o v a l a n d ( b )
r e c o m m e n d th a t t h e A c q u is i ti o n s a n d D is p o s a ls C o m m i t t e e r e c o m m e n d s

Page 179 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t o t h e B o a r d t o g r a n t a u th o r it y to t h e G C E t o s i g n th e le t t e r s o f i n te n t ,
t h e l e t te r s o f r e g r e t a n d a ll o th e r r e l e v a n t d o c u m e n t a ti o n in s u m m a r y o f
t h e la s t p a r t o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h .

Is th a t y o u r s ig n a tu r e w h ic h in f a c t

a p p e a r s o n t h e le f t – s o r r y o n t h e r i g h t h a n d s i d e i n t h e m id d l e ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a i r i t ’s m y s i g n a t u r e .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d is t h is i n fa c t t h e jo i n t

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d b e t w e e n y o u a n d M r P it a ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a i r i t i s .

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

A n d t h e j u s t f o r c la r i ty i f y o u t u r n

o n e p a g e b e f o r e , a t p a g e 1 2 8 . . .( i n te r v e n t i o n )
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l b e f o r e th a t I s e e t h a t a lt h o u g h y o u s i g n e d b u t

y o u d id n ’t c r o s s o u t n o t r e c o m m e n d e d , w a s t h a t a n o v e r s i g h t ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

I t w a s a n o v e r s ig h t C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n t t o r e c o m m e n d ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

I meant to recommend.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

A n d a p o l o g i e s fo r m y o v e r s ig h t to o .
S o r r y C h a ir.

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
20

A t p a g e 1 2 8 , j u s t f o r c la r i ty o f

r e c o r d , is i t c o r r e c t t h a t a t p a r a g r a p h 7 9 t h e fi n a l t e n d e r e d p r ic i n g f o r
t h e r e c o m m e n d e d b id d e r, G ij i m a , o v e r a p e r i o d o f fi v e y e a r s , is R 1 3 3 8
11 4 3 2 4 ,0 4 ( O n e Bi ll i o n T h r e e H u n d r e d a n d T h i r t y E i g h t M il li o n , O n e
H u n d r e d a n d F o u r te e n T h o u s a n d Th r e e H u n d r e d a n d Tw e n ty F o u r R a n d
a n d fo u r c e n ts ) .
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a ir.

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d th a t t h e e s ti m a t e d s a v i n g s o v e r

a p e r i o d o f fi v e y e a r s o n t h e c o n tr a c t , b a s e d o n t h e c u r r e n t f iv e y e a r
c o n tr a c t s p e n d o f R 2 .5 b i ll i o n is R 1 1 6 1 8 8 5 6 7 5 , 9 6 ( O n e B i ll io n O n e
H u n d r e d a n d S ix ty O n e M il li o n E i g h t H u n d r e d a n d E i g h t Fi v e T h o u s a n d
S ix H u n d r e d a n d S e v e n t y F iv e R a n d n i n e t y s ix c e n ts ) w h ic h is
e q u iv a l e n t t o a m o n th ly s a v i n g o f a p p r o x i m a te ly R 2 m i ll io n .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I:

Ye s C h a ir fo r t h e t i m e th a t I h a v e

b e e n th e r e t h a t is w h a t i t is , I d o n ’ t k n o w if i t c h a n g e d s u b s e q u e n t t o
that.
10

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
s ig n e d

and

there

was

one

N o w t h a t th e r e c o m m e n d a t io n w a s

r e c o m m e n d a t io n ,

this

was

then

the

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t o u g h t to h a v e – th a t w a s t o b e t e n d e r e d a t t h e
m e e ti n g o f th e Ac q u i s i ti o n s a n d D is p o s a l C o m m i t t e e , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MS MAKANO MURIEL MOSIDI:
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Ye s , w e a r e .. .( i n t e r v e n ti o n )
We are now – sorry?

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I: N o , I w a s g o in g to s a y C h a ir th e n t h e
n e x t s t e p w a s to a c t u a ll y n o w t a b l e i t a t th e B A D C , t h e B o a r d ’s
A c q u is i t io n a n d D is p o s a l C o m m i t te e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
20

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : P a r a g r a p h 1 4 . . .( in t e r v e n ti o n )
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e t h i s m i g h t b e th e ti m e t o t a k e a c o m f o r t b r e a k .
W e d o n ’ t a lw a y s h a v e a b r e a k a f t e r lu n c h b u t w e w i ll h a v e j u s t fi v e
m i n u t e s , w e w i ll r e s u m e a t h a l f p a s t.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: No problem.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : M s M o s i d i fr o m p a r a g r a p h s 3 5 u n ti l 4 3
o r a p o l o g ie s u n t il 4 0 y o u b y a n d l a r g e d e a l w i th th e m e e t in g t h a t t o o k
p l a c e , th e Ac q u i s i ti o n s a n d D i s p o s a l C o u n c il M e e t in g – C o m m i t t e e
m e e ti n g s o r r y. C a n I a s k y o u to t u r n to p a g e 1 3 1 o f t h e b u n d l e ?

Do

y o u r e c o g n i s e t h is d o c u m e n t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a i r I d o .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h a t is it p l e a s e ?
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h is is t h e c o p y o f t h e M in u te s
o f th e M e e t in g w h e r e th is t e n d e r w a s d is c u s s e d b y t h e Ac q u i s i ti o n a n d
Disposals Committee.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n p a r ti c u l a r.
CHAIRPERSON: And what was discussed I am sorry?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W h e r e t h e …
CHAIRPERSON: The recommendation?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s w h e r e th e d a t a s e r v ic e s

t e n d e r r e c o m m e n d a t io n w e r e d i s c u s s e d
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A t t h e …
CHAIRPERSON:

S o t h is w o u l d b e t h e – t h is w o u l d h a v e b e e n t h e

m e e ti n g w h e r e th a t s i n g l e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t Mr G a m a w a s a s k in g
for…
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W a s p r e s e n t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u ld h a v e – w a s t a b l e d o r w o u l d h a v e b e e n t a b l e d ?

Page 182 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s , y e s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a u y.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : M o r e a c c u r a t e ly s t a t e d i t is a n e x c e r p t
o f t h e r e l e v a n t p o r t i o n s o f t h e m e e ti n g M i n u t e s o f th e M e e t i n g s p e c i f ic
t o y o u r a g e n d a it e m .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a i r i t is .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER: On page 131 there appears to be three
c a t e g o r ie s o f a tt e n d a n c e j u s t t o h ig h li g h t s o m e o f th e n a m e s i n
a tt e n d a n c e t h o s e w h o w e r e m a r k e d a s p r e s e n t w a s M r S D S h a n e b e in g
10

t h e c h a ir p e r s o n .

M r S I G a m a a m e m b e r G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u tiv e , Ms

E ls ie M a b a s o a m e m b e r.

Mr Z A N a g d e e i f I a m p r o n o u n c in g t h a t

c o r r e c t ly.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N a g d e e .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d a ls o t h a t – a ls o m a r k e d a s a

m e m b e r i n a t t e n d a n c e w a s M r G J P i t a C h i e f F in a n c i a l O ff ic e r, M r M
S i g o n y e l a T h e G e n e r a l M a n a g e r.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry was that no inaccurate? That was not his
p o s i ti o n is it – Mr P i ta ?

H e w a s n o t C h i e f F in a n c ia l O ffic e r w a s h e ?

Wa s h e n o t s o m e t h i n g S u p p l y C h a i n M a n a g e m e n t o r Pr o c u r e m e n t?
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

N o C h a ir h e w a s t h e C F O b u t

p r o c u r e m e n t w a s r e p o r ti n g i n to h i m f i n a ll y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o r r e c t ti t le w a s C h i e f F i n a n c ia l O ffi c e r ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

Ye s th e G r o u p C h ie f Fi n a n c i a l

O ff ic e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d S in g h o r w a s i t – o r w a s t h is n o t M r S i n g h ’s t i m e ?

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

N o i t w a s n o t Mr S i n g h ’s t i m e

w h e n I w a s i n Tr a n s n e t Mr S i n g h w a s n o t t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

Mr M Sigonyela General Manager

O ff ic e o f th e G r o u p C h i e f E x e c u t iv e , M r N S i li n g a C h ie f L e g a l C o u n s e l ,
M r E T h o m a s C h i e f S u p p ly C h a i n O ffi c e r a n d o t h e r s a n d t h e n y o u a r e
m a r k e d s p e c i fic a lly i n p a r t i a l a t te n d a n c e t h e t h ir d o n e u n d e r p a r a g r a p h
1 .3 a s M s M A M o s i d i G r o u p C h ie f I n f o r m a t io n O ff ic e r.

I t is n o t e d a t

p a r a g r a p h 1 .4 . 2 t h a t t h e C h a ir p e r s o n n o t e d t h a t t h e G C E w a s d e la y e d
10

fr o m a p r i o r m e e ti n g a n d t h e C h a ir p e r s o n r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e m e e t in g b e
a d j o u r n e d o n a r r iv a l o f t h e G C E f o r a b r i e f m e e t in g b e t w e e n t h e G r o u p
C h i e f E x e c u t iv e , C h i e f F in a n c ia l O ff ic e r a n d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n . C a n y o u
p l e a s e s e t t h e s c e n e f o r t h i s C h a i r p e r s o n a s t o h o w th e a g e n d a i te m
h a d b e e n i n tr o d u c e d w it h y o u r i n v i te t o a t t e n d th e m e e ti n g o n th e d a y ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : T h a n k y o u . S o C h a ir t h e A D C is
a tt e n d e d b y t h e o ffi c i a l m e m b e r s w h o a r e m a r k e d a s p r e s e n t o n t o p a n d
d e p e n d in g o n w h a t t h e a g e n d a is l o o k i n g lik e a n d th e i t e m s t h a t n e e d
t o b e d i s c u s s e d o n t h e d a y y o u w i ll h a v e t h e li s t w h i c h i s in 1 .3 .
t h a t li s t w il l s a y P a r ti a l A t t e n d a n c e .

20

So

S o w h a t b a s i c a ll y h a p p e n s t h e n

y o u a t te n d f o r t h e p a r t th a t y o u a r e a c t u a l l y r e s p o n s i b l e f o r s o th a t y o u
c a n a c tu a l ly s p e a k t o t h e s u b m is s io n a s p r e s e n t e d .

A n d t h a t is w h y

C h a ir y o u w il l s e e my n a m e th e r e b u t i t w ill n o t m e a n th a t w e w e r e a l l
in t h a t m e e ti n g a t t h e s a m e t i m e . A f t e r m y i t e m th e n I w o u l d le a v e a n d
t h e n e x t p e r s o n w il l a c t u a l ly c o n t in u e .

S o o n t h is p a r tic u la r d a y s o

w h a t th e n h a p p e n s y o u w o u l d b e k n o w i n g th a t o n t h a t d a y y o u r m a tt e r

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
is g o i n g t o s e r v e i n fr o n t o f t h e A D C s o e it h e r y o u w a i t o u ts id e m o s t ly
f o r y o u to b e c a l l e d i n t o t h e m e e ti n g . A n d s o th e m e e ti n g w a s i n a n d
w e w e r e w a i ti n g o u t s i d e a n d th e n w h e n m y i t e m c a m e t h e y – I th in k
t h e y h a d – t h e y h a d a d jo u r n e d th e y h a d a b o d y b r e a k a n d t h e y s t o p p e d
a n d w e w e r e w a i t in g fo r t h e m to a c t u a ll y c o m e – c o m e a n d s t a r t th e
m e e ti n g a g a i n .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: And how long was that break?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

T h a t b r e a k w a s q u i te lo n g I

t h i n k i f I a m c o r r e c t i t w o u l d h a v e b e e n a b o u t fi f ty t o a n h o u r – f i f ty
10

m i n u t e s t o a n h o u r w h e r e t h e y t o o k t h a t b r e a k a n d w h i ls t b e f o r e t h e
m e e ti n g s t a r t e d a l o t o f p e o p l e c a m e b a c k a n d w e s i t d o w n li k e M r
N a g d e e w a s s i t ti n g d o w n a n d w a i t in g a n d I t h i n k t h e r e s t o f th e p e o p l e
were not there.

S o a s w e w e r e w a i t i n g fo r th a t le n g th o f ti m e

e v e r y t h i n g w a s s e t tl e d b u t w e w e r e ju s t w a it in g o f c o u r s e f o r th e o ffic i a l
m e m b e r s o f t h e s u b - c o m m i t t e e a n d t h e n i n w a lk e d t h e r e m a i n d e r o f t h e
m e m b e r s w h i c h w a s Mr S h a n e , M r G a m a a n d M s M o b a s o a f te r t h a t lo n g
wait.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

The ones who – who went away was it those

three?
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : Ye s s o w h e n i t b r e a k e v e r y b o d y
went out.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh

the

whole

–

the

m e e ti n g

was

a d jo u r n e d

t e m p o r a r il y ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : J a it w a s a d j o u r n e d t e m p o r a r i ly
a n d th e n e v e r y b o d y c a m e b a c k .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h i n li k e f if t y m i n u te s ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h i n f iv e m in u t e s , t e n m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W e m a d e o u r s e l v e s c o m f o r t a b l e
in t h e b o a r d r o o m a n d th e n w e w e r e w a i ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja for…
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h e r e a l m e m b e r s t o c o m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d c o n t i n u e w i t h t h e m e e t in g .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y Mr N a g d e e w a s w a i ti n g w it h y o u ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

Ja but Mr Nagdee was waiting

with us.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t w a s o n ly t h e …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h e to p th r e e n a m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e to p …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h a t w e r e n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s , y e s th e y w e r e n o t t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d t h e n o f c o u r s e a f t e r a n h o u r
t h e y c a m e a n d t h e y c a m e in a n d M r S h a n e w h o is h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f
t h a t c o m m i t t e e th e n c o m m e n c e d w it h t h e p r o c e e d in g s o f m y a g e n d a
it e m .

A n d I ju s t r e m e m b e r e d C h a i r th a t w h e n s h e o p e n e d – w h e n h e

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
o p e n e d t h e m e e ti n g h e a c t u a l ly e x p l a i n e d th a t w e a r e n o w g e t t in g i n t o
t h e m o s t d i ffi c u l t d is c u s s i o n o f t h is m e e ti n g f o r t o d a y m e a n in g th e
a g e n d a it e m t h a t I w a s g o i n g to t a lk t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e te n d e r ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

At some stage I thought you were saying

s o m e t h i n g li k e w h i le y o u w e r e w a i ti n g ? I t h o u g h t t h e r e w a s s o m e t h i n g I
t h a t I m a y h a v e – m ig h t h a v e in t e r r u p t e d y o u .

M a y b e s o m e th i n g

h a p p e n e d w h i l e y o u w e r e w a i ti n g ?
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a lly ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : I t h i n k I w a s ju s t tr y in g t o m a k e
it c l e a r t h a t s o m e o f th e n a m e s t h a t a r e u n d e r p a r ti a l a t te n d a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I w o u ld n o t h a v e s e e n o n th e

d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h e y w o u l d n o t h a v e s e e n m e a s
w e ll .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o i t m i g h t l o o k in c o r r e c t b u t i t
is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y n o t h a t i s fi n e . S o th e C h a i r p e r s o n w e a r e
n o w g o i n g t o t h e m o s t d i ffi c u l t is s u e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

A n d h e – t h a t is w h e n h e w a s

a c t u a ll y o p e n in g th e d is c u s s io n s f o r t h e d a t a s e r v i c e s t e n d e r.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W e r e y o u th e n a ff o r d e d a n o p p o r t u n i ty
t o m a k e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s t o t h e c o m m i t t e e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir y e s I w a s , I w a s a l l o w e d
t o g iv e s o m e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n to t h a t c o m m i t t e e .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

D i d a n y o n e e l s e g i v e r e p r e s e n t a ti o n s

to the committee.
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t w a s m e .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : I n r e l a t i o n to t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

C h a ir th e m a i n r e s p o n d e n t t o

t h e s u b m is s i o n a n d t h e v o ic e o v e r w a s m y s e l f a n d M r E d w a r d T h o m a s .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

If I can then ask you to turn to page

1 3 7 o f th e b u n d l e . T h i s i s a tr a n s c r i p t o f t h e p a r ti c u l a r m e e t i n g o n th a t
d a y a n d C h a i r t h e c e r ti f ic a t e s o f v e r a c it y a r e a ll i n c l u d e d i n t h e – in th e
a n n e x u r e a s w e l l . I n p a r t ic u l a r c a n I a s k y o u t u r n to p a g e 1 5 4 p l e a s e ?
A n d I w o u l d li k e y o u t o r e a d s o m e t h i n g i n to t h e r e c o r d w h ic h w a s i n
r e s p o n s e t o a q u e r y t h a t w a s r a i s e d to y o u b y Ms M o b a s o .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e , b e f o r e t h a t c a n w e ju s t d e a l w it h th is . I ta k e
it th a t w h e n y o u w e r e g iv e n a c h a n c e t o m a k e a p r e s e n t a t i o n o r t o ta lk
a t th is m e e t in g y o u t a l k e d i n li n e – y o u r p r e s e n t a ti o n w a s i n li n e w i t h
t h e m e m o r a n d u m t h a t w a s r e c o m m e n d in g G ij i m a ? Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a i r i t w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d la r g e l y w h a t y o u s a i d w a s w h a t w a s c o n t a i n e d in
t h e m e m o r a n d u m o r n o t r e a lly ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s la r g e l y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: L a r g e ly i t w a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n d d id M r T h o m a s w h e n h e g o t a c h a n c e a l s o
g o a l o n g t h e s a m e li n e ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI: Mr Thomas went along the same
10

li n e p u n c t u a ti n g t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s a l o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d j u s t h o w w e e n d e d u p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : J u s t a s a fo ll o w u p t o th a t d id M r P i t a
g iv e a n y c o m m e n ts w h e n m a k in g th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

M y r e c o ll e c ti o n s a y h e d i d n o t

s a y – h e d i d n o t g iv e a n y c o m m e n t i n t h a t m e e t in g . I c o u l d b e w r o n g
C h a ir l e t m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t is – I k n o w th a t M s S e p te m b e r w a n t s t o t a k e y o u
20

t o d o c u m e n t s b u t i n t e r m s o f y o u r r e c o l le c t io n w a s t h e r e a n y b o d y e l s e
e x c e p t y o u r s e lf a n d M r Th o m a s w h o y o u r e c a l l a ls o s p o k e to – t o th is
it e m o r q u e s t io n e d y o u o n y o u r p r e s e n t a t i o n o r q u e s t io n e d M r T h o m a s
o r s p o k e in s u p p o r t o f w h a t t h e t w o o f y o u h a d s a i d ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

Ye s C h a ir.

I n te r ms o f

r e c o l l e c ti o n Mr T h o m a s s p o k e a t l e n g t h in t e r m s o f t h e p r o c u r e m e n t

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
p r o c e s s e s . I s p o k e a t le n g th i n t e r m s o f t h e o p e r a t i o n a l r e q u ir e m e n t s
o f t h e t e n d e r a n d I s e e m t o r e c a ll t h a t M r G a m a tr i e d to e x p l a i n a p o i n t
I w a s m a k i n g j u s t b r i e f ly b u t I a l s o r e m e m b e r t h a t M r S i l in g a w h o w a s
t h e h e a d o f le g a l e x p l a i n e d t h e r is k p o r t io n a l it t le b i t i n s u p p o r t o f
what we were saying – in support of what the memorandum was saying.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

So those are the four people

that I remember from…
CHAIRPERSON: YEs.
10

MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

I cannot remember Mr Pita

c o m m e n t in g o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n y o f t h i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t o n t h e w h o l e a s f a r a s y o u r e c a l l e v e r y o n e
w h o s p o k e o r r a th e r e v e r y – n o - o n e w h o s p o k e s p o k e a g a in s t t h e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a s f a r a s y o u c a n r e c a ll ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o a s f a r a s I c a n r e c a l l C h a i r i s
t h a t e v e r y o n e s p o k e i n li n e w i th t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n b u t e v e r y o n e
a m p l i fi e d w h a t t h e y t h o u g h t i t s h o u ld b e a m p li fi e d .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

Ye s a n d I f e l t a n d n o w t h is is

r e a l ly b e c o m i n g a l i t tl e s u b j e c t b e c a u s e a t t h a t t i m e I w a s b e g in n in g t o
f e e l m a y b e th e w a y w e h a v e w r i t t e n t h e m e m o r a n d u m s w e w a n t t o
a m p l i fy a n d s c a r e th e b o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

Th a t th e r e w e r e r is k s a l t h o u g h

a t t h e e n d w e s ti ll c o m e b a c k a n d s a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W e r e c o m m e n d G i ji m a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

But I had a sense that the

d e li b e r a t i o n s o f p r o c u r e m e n t f o r e x a m p l e t h e y w e r e le a n i n g m o r e o n t o
t h e r is k s w h i c h w e k e p t o n s a y i n g b u t t h e y h a v e b e e n m i ti g a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

W h y d o y o u h a v e to t h e n r a is e

t h e m t o th e b o a r d ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o t h e r e w a s t h a t s e n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I n t h a t m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: B u t e v e r y o n e s p o k e i n li n e w i th
t h e s u b m is s i o n a s m a d e .
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.
20

A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W h e n y o u m e a n e v e r y o n e w h o e x a c tl y
do you mean?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

So anyone who spoke be it Mr

Thomas be it…
C H A I R P E R S O N : E v e r y o n e o f t h e f o u r o r s o t h a t y o u m e n ti o n e d ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

J a Mr S i li n g a , m y s e l f a n d M r

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
Gama.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h a n k y o u . S o i f I c a n th e n ta k e y o u
t o p a g e 1 5 4 a n d l e t m e a s k y o u w a s y o u r p o s i t io n o n a d v a n c in g t h a t t h e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o G i ji m a w a s th e r ig h t o n e t e s t e d a t th a t m e e t i n g ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

I th i n k i t w a s te s t e d i n v e r y

simple terms.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y I d id n o t h e a r t h a t q u e s ti o n j u s t r e p e a t i t
10

pleases?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMBER:

Th e q u e s t io n is , w h e t h e r o r n o t th e

w i t n e s s ’ p o s i ti o n t o a d v a n c e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f G i ji m a w a s t e s t e d
a t a ll a t t h e h e a r i n g – a t t h e c o m m i t t e e m e e ti n g y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : S o – s o C h a ir I ju s t s a i d t h a t i t
w a s te s t e d i n a v e r y s i m p l e w a y a c c o r d i n g t o m e . M s M a b a s o a s k e d m e
a n d t e s te d m e a n d s a id i f i t w a s y o u r m o n e y w o u ld y o u p u t y o u r l i fe o n
t h is ? O n t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a s i t s t a n d s ?
CHAIRPERSON:
20

A n d w h a t w a s M r M a b a s o ’s p o s i ti o n a g a i n – l e g a l

counsel?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o M s M a b a s o . .
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mabaso.
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

W a s t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e m a in

board.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S h e w a s t h e C h a ir m a n o f

Tr a n s n e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h b u t w a s s h e p r e s e n t a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

S h e is a m e m b e r o f t h i s

m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y. S o i s s h e – s h e s o u g h t to g e t y o u r a n s w e r
o n w h e th e r t h e p o s i t o n – t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s w h a t y o u w o u l d –
10

w o u ld g o w it h e v e n i f i t w a s y o u r o w n m o n e y ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

T h a t is h o w m y v ie w s w e r e

t e s te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d y o u r a n s w e r w a s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I : I a n s w e r e d a n d I e x p l a i n e d th a t
I b e li e v e i n t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s o f Tr a n s n e t t h e y a r e t h e r e f o r a
r e a s o n , th e y t a k e a w a y s u b je c tiv i ty a n d t h e r e f o r e b a s e d o n t h o s e
p r o c e s s e s a n d t h e ir r e c o m m e n d a ti o n I w i ll a c t u a ll y b e t m y b o t to m
20

d o ll a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER:

A n d ju s t t o a m p li fy t h e v e r y a n s w e r

t h a t y o u h a v e g iv e n a t p a g e 1 5 4 p a r a g r a p h – li n e 7 y o u t h e n a s s e r t
w h a t y o u r p o s i t io n is . C a n I a s k y o u to j u s t r e a d y o u r s e c ti o n i n t o th e
record?

Page 193 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W h e r e I s t a r t w i t h C h a ir ?
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s p l e a s e .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
“ C h a ir

I

would

procurement

go

you

processes

see
and

I

b e l ie v e
our

in

our

procurement

p r o c e s s e s g a v e m e t h e c o n fi d e n c e t h a t G ij i m a c a n
a c t u a ll y d o w h a t t h e y c a n b e c a u s e e v e n if y o u lo o k
a t t h e e v a l u a t i o n p r o c e s s t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e tw e e n t h e
t w o h a s b e e n j u s t a fr a c ti o n .
10

I t h a s b e e n 0 .2 1 a n d

0 .2 5 s o t h e y w e r e a l m o s t n e c k o n n e c k . T h e r e i s n o
b i g v a r i a n c e b e t w e e n th e t w o s o I h a v e g o t m y
c o m f o r t i n th a t t h e p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s e s w e r e
a c t u a ll y d a te d e n o u g h .

A n d th e n i f y o u l o o k a t t h e

p a r t n e r s t h a t a r e h a v i n g G iji m a .

If you look at IBM

a n d y o u lo o k a t Vo d a c o m y o u l o o k a t Vo d a c o m o n t h e
in t e r n e t C h a i r t h e y le a d in t e r m s o f U I T t e c h n o l o g ie s ,
t h e y l e a d i n t e r m s o f th e i r o w n m a i n fr a m e s . S o y o u
h a v e t h e c o m f o r t th a t t h is p a r ti c u l a r c o n s o r ti u m w i ll
a c t u a ll y r e i n fo r c e th e b la c k c o m p a n y a s in G i ji m a
20

c o m p a n y s o I w i ll p u t m y h e a d o n t h e b lo c k f o r
G ij i m a . ”
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : W i t h th e p r o g r e s s i o n o f t h e m e e ti n g i s
it c o r r e c t t h a t M r S t a n le y S h a n e t h e n m a d e a n a d d r e s s t o th e m e e ti n g ?
MS MAKANO MURIEL ANNA MOSIDI:

Ye s , y e s h e d i d .

lo n g a d d r e s s i f I …

Page 194 of 223

He made a

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : i t is a t th i s p o i n t i n t i m e t h a t I r e q u e s t
p e r m is s io n t o p la y th e a u d i o w i t h u s fo ll o w i n g i n t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f th e
p a r t ic u l a r a d d r e s s t h a t M r S t a n l e y S h a n e p r e s e n t s a t th e m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s g o a h e a d .
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMBER: If we could – if I could ask you to turn
t o p a g e 1 5 8 s h o u ld y o u w is h to f o l l o w. I t b e g in s a t t h e b o t to m . A l i g n e d
w i t h C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C o u ld y o u p l e a s e …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m li n e ?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Sorry?
C H A I R P E R S O N : F r o m li n e ?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: Line 18.
CHAIRPERSON: 18?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: 18.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. At page 15?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: At page 158.
CHAIRPERSON: 8.
ADV VERUSHKA SEPTEMB ER:

20

Th e p a r ti c u la r p a r a g r a p h is ti tl e d

C h a ir p e r s o n a n d i t s t a r ts w i t h c a n I c o m m e n t?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Q u e s ti o n m a r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n I r e q u e s t th a t t h e a u d i o r e c o r d i n g
be played please?

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
[ P la y i n g o f a n a u d io r e c o r d i n g ].
CHAIRPERSON:

S o r r y is th a t a s c l e a r a s i t c a n b e ?

Is that the

c le a r e s t it c a n b e ?
[ P la y i n g o f a n a u d io r e c o r d i n g ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t a y e s o r w h a t?
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : C a n y o u j u s t s t o p q u ic k ly. S t o p .
CHAIRPERSON:

M y q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r t h a t is th e c l e a r e s t t h a t w e

c a n h a v e ? Is t h e a n s w e r y e s o r is t h e a n s w e r n o ?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: The answer is yes.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is i s t h e c l e a r e s t .
A D V V E R U S H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t . S t a r t a fr e s h .
[ P la y i n g o f a n a u d io r e c o r d i n g ].
[ A f t e r t h e r e c o r d in g t h e r e is a b s o l u t e ly n o s o u n d fo r th e r e s t o f t h e
a u d io ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t s t o p i t . H o w lo n g m o r e – h o w m u c h m o r e w il l h e
s t il l t a k e ?
ADV VERUSHKA SEPT EMB ER: One page.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I h a v e l o s t w h e r e th e y a r e b u t o k a y i f i t i s o n e

20

p a g e t h a t is fi n e . Yo u m a y c o n t i n u e .
[ P la y i n g o f a n a u d io r e c o r d i n g ].
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Do you have any

c o m m e n t s t o t h e a d d r e s s th a t w a s m a d e b y Mr S h a n e t o t h e – to t h e
m e e ti n g a n d i n p a r ti c u la r d ir e c te d a t y o u ?

Page 196 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir I t h i n k f ir s t ly i n t h a t

m e e ti n g I j u s t f e lt t h a t t h e E x e c u ti v e in p u t – t h e E x e c u t iv e d u e
d i li g e n c e p r o c e s s to e n s u r e t h a t w e la n d t h e r i g h t s e r v ic e p r o v i d e r w a s
ju s t n o t ta k e n i n to c o g n is a n c e a t a ll .

T h e w h o le s c r e a m i n g a n d

s h o u t in g o f M r S h a n e j u s t d i d n o t l a n d w e l l w i t h m e a n d I – I k n o w w i th
o th e r M a n a g e r s a s w e ll .
condescending.

It came across as very derogatory and

I th i n k i t j u s t s o r t o f n u m b e d e v e r y o n e t o s a y w e ll

p e r h a p s i t d o e s n o t m a t te r w h a t w e c o u l d h a v e d o n e .

I know that at

s o m e p o in t w h e n Mr S h a n e w a s t a lk i n g a b o u t h o w t h e y n e v e r m e a n t t o
10

a c t u a ll y g e t r i d o f T- Sy s t e m s a n d h o w th e y w e r e ju s t d o i n g t h e e x e r c i s e
t o te s t t h e m a r k e t a n d t o k e e p t h e m h o n e s t.

I r e m e m b e r I a c t u a ll y

a s k e d i n th a t m e e ti n g t o s a y I w i s h w e h a d b e e n to l d t h a t.

Then it

w o u ld h a v e b e e n a n e a s i e r p r o c e s s t o a c t u a ll y t e s t a n d s a y t o TS y s t e ms c a n y o u a c t u a lly s l a s h y o u r p r ic e s .
market.

J u s t s l ic e i t b y R 1 b il li o n .

W e h a v e te s t e d th e

Yo u a r e g o o d t o g o i n s te a d o f

a c t u a ll y g e t t in g i n to t h is w h o le i n v o lv e d p r o c e s s th a t w e d i d . S o C h a ir
I think - and he spoke to me about ja you may be good new Manager
b u t it is – i t h a s a l l b e e n d o n e i n te r ms o f h o w t h e c o n tr a c t m a n a g e m e n t
w a s d o n e a n d I t h in k f o r m e j u s t o v e r a l l I ju s t f e l t th e B o a r d d id n o t
20

t a k e in t o c o g n is a n c e a n y w o r k t h a t w e d i d - t h a t is o n e . Tw o - a n d I
ju s t f e l t li k e t h e y d id n o t ta k e u s s e r i o u s ly in t e r m s o f h o w s e r i o u s ly w e
t a k e o u r w o r k . S o i t d i d n o t m a t te r a n d h e s p o k e a l o t a b o u t r is k a n d I
a l w a y s s a y a s a n E x e c u t iv e I a m a ls o c a r r y in g r is k . I t c a n n o t b e th a t it
is o n ly a b o u t D ir e c t o r s .

I t is n o l o n g e r li k e t h a t .

If you are an

E x e c u t iv e y o u h a v e a fi d u c ia r y d u t y t o s a ti s fy a ll th e t i m e a n d y o u c a r r y

Page 197 of 223

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
t h e s a m e r is k a s w e l l .

S o f o r m e I t h i n k a f t e r t h a t l o n g t a lk I j u s t

r e a l is e d t h a t I t h i n k w e h a v e s a i d w h a t w e c a n s a y.

I t is r e a l ly u p t o

t h e B o a r d t o m a k e t h e ir d e c is io n .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

Did any of the reasons provided by

M r S h a n e c o n s t i tu t e o b je c tiv e c r i te r i a a s c o n t e m p la t e d i n t h e m a n u a l ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I d i d n o t – C h a ir j u s t f o r t h e

r e c o r d – I d id n o t p ic k u p a n y o b j e c t iv e c r i t e r i a o r a n y p r e d e t e r m i n e d
c r i t e r i a t h a t – th a t p e r h a p s w e c o u ld h a v e m is s e d . S o it ju s t – I d i d n o t
fi n d a n y p l a c e fo r h is c o m m e n t .
10

A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : A n d s o w h a t w a s t h e o u tc o m e o n th e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n f in a l ly m a d e b y t h e C o m m it t e e t o th e B o a r d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

So

the

o u tc o m e

of

the

C o m m i t t e e a t t h e e n d w a s to a c t u a l d i ff e r w i t h t h e m a n a g e m e n t
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t o a w a r d G i ji m a b u t t o r a t h e r a w a r d t o T- S y s te m s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And can I then ask you to quickly

t u r n t o p a g e 1 9 0 w h ic h i s A n n e x u r e 11 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l b e fo r e th a t o t h e r m e m b e r s o f t h e C o m m i t te e d i d
they speak after Mr Shane had spoken?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o t th a t I r e m e m b e r.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d t h e y s p e a k to e n g a g e w i th h i s r e a s o n i n g a n d h is
a d d r e s s v is - à - v i s y o u r a d d r e s s a n d t h e a d d r e s s o f M r T h o m a s a n d t h e
m e m o r a n d u m t h a t h a d b e e n p u t in r e c o m m e n d in g G i ji m a ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir n o , n o t t o m y r e c o ll e c t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ja.

Page 198 of 223

Yo u k n o w t h e p o i n ts t h a t

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w e r e t h r o w n i n b y Mr G a m a , b y M r S i li n g a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

It was you know – it was here

a n d th e r e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

To tr y t o p u n c t u a t e b u t n o

r e a c ti o n t o …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: To w h a t M r S h a n e w a s s a y in g .
10

CHAIRPERSON:
d e c is i o n ?

S o a f t e r M r S h a n e h a d s p o k e n d i d th e y j u s t m a k e a

D id t h e y h a v e to v o t e o r a n y t h i n g ?

H o w – h o w w a s th e

d e c is i o n a r r iv e d a t o r i f y o u w e r e s t il l p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e t in g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir I t h i n k o n c e w e w e r e d o n e
y e s t h e y a g r e e d t h a t t h e y w il l g o w i th T- S y s t e m s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

B u t h o w t h e r e s o lu t io n w a s p u t

t o g e th e r I w a s n o t t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e p o s i ti o n a n d I j u s t w a n t y o u
t o s a y s o m e th in g a b o u t t h i s .
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e a s n o t i n g b e f o r e t h e C o m m i t t e e in te r m s o f a n y
d o c u m e n t a ti o n a s f a r a s y o u k n o w th a t s u p p o r t e d t h a t t h e a w a r d b e
g r a n t e d t o T- S y s t e ms .

T h e r e w a s o n ly a m e m o r a n d u m t h a t s u p p o r te d

t h a t th e t e n d e r b e a w a r d e d t o G i ji m a ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir y e s th e r e w a s o n ly a

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
m e m o r a n d u m t h a t s u p p o r te d t h a t th e t e n d e r b e a w a r d e d t o G iji m a .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d in t e r m s o f u n t il T h o m a s s p o k e n o b o d y h a d

s p o k e n a g a i n s t t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n th a t t h e t e n d e r b e a w a r d e d t o
G ij i m a . T h e r e h a d b e e n q u e s t io n s b u t li k e fr o m M s M a b a s o b u t r e a l ly
n o b o d y h a d s p o k e n a g a i n s t th e – th e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t m a n a g e m e n t
had made?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
10

Thank you.

A t p a g e 1 9 0 o f th e

bundle …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. L e t m e a s k t h is – n o w y o u h a d fr o m t h e
fir s t ti m e y o u s t a r t e d d e a l i n g w it h t h is m a t t e r y o u h a d – h a d
r e s e r v a ti o n s a b o u t t h e te n d e r b e i n g a w a r d e d t o T- S y s t e m s .

Yo u r

r e s e r v a ti o n s h a d – a s ti m e w e n t o n – b e e n k i n d o f v i n d ic a te d a n d
u l ti m a t e ly o n e r e c o m m e n d a t io n w a s m a d e . O u t o f w h a t M r S h a n e s a i d
and I could not follow everything …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e s o u n d w a s n o t g o o d .

I c o u ld n o t f o ll o w

everything.
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Out of what he said did he engage with the reasons

t h a t – i n r e g a r d t o r is k s t h a t y o u h a d p u t f o r w a r d in a n y m e a n i n g f u l
way?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o C h a ir. I t h i n k y o u m ig h t n o t
h a v e p ic k e d i t u p q u i te c le a r ly b u t h e s p o k e to – fo r e x a m p l e – t h e

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
n e w s p a p e r s a n d t h e h e a d li n e s .

H o w w e w o u ld b e e x p o s in g Tr a n s n e t

b e c a u s e G i ji m a . C a n y o u i m a g e i f p e o p le c a n n o t s e n d e m a i l? N o w a l l
t h o s e t h i n g s . E m a i l w il l b e o n e o f t h e p r e d e t e r m in e d c r it e r i a i n t e r m s
o f t h e te c h n i c a ll y c a p a b i li ty o f G ij i m a . I t i s a – it is a c r i ti c a l s e r v ic e
b u t it is a b a s ic s e r v ic e .

S o a ll t h o s e r i s k s th a t h e a c t u a ll y t r i e d t o

e l e v a te o u t o f h is m o tiv a ti o n t h e y w e r e a c t u a ll y p a r t o f t h e e v a l u a t io n
that was done.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
10

S o I c o u ld n o t fi n d a n y t h in g

e x c e p t f o r th e n e w s p a p e r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

W h ic h I w a s n o t e v e n a w a r e o f

w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g w it h t h e n e w s p a p e r s b u t …
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Yo u k n o w Tr a n s n e t is a h u g e

o r g a n i s a t io n . Yo u w i ll a l w a y s fi n d y o u r s e l f i n th e n e w s p a p e r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Fo r g o o d o r f o r b a d y o u w i ll f i n d
y o u r s e l f in t h e n e w s p a p e r s .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o I – I c o u ld n o t p ic k a n y th i n g
t h a t h e w a s p a r t ic u l a r l y r a is i n g t h a t I t h o u g h t w o u l d q u a l if y t o b e a l e g i t
criteria …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Th a t w e – w e c o u ld h a v e h a d a n

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
o v e r s ig h t o f .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o I – I j u s t – t h a t is w h y a t th e
e n d I j u s t fe l t h e – h e j u s t s p o k e a n d s p o k e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I c o u l d n o t p ic k u p a n y th in g th a t
h e w a s r e a ll y s a y i n g e x c e p t th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
10

H e w o u l d w a n t to – t o a c t u a l ly

ju s t s a y w e - w e w i ll n o t g o w i t h th e m a n a g e m e n t r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n t h e y – w h e n th e y c a m e b a c k i n t o t h e m e e ti n g

t h a t is h e , M r G a m a a n d th e r e w a s a t h ir d m e m b e r o f t h e C o m m i t t e e –
w h e n t h e y c a m e b a c k i n to t h e m e e ti n g a ft e r h a v i n g t a k e n q u i t e lo n g t o
c o m e b a c k d u r i n g t h e b r e a k d i d t h e y te l l t h e m e e t in g w h y t h e y h a d
t a k e n s o lo n g a n d w h a t w a s t h e is s u e .

T h e y k e p t y o u w a i t in g – y o u

p e o p l e w a i ti n g f o r a l o n g ti m e .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir t h e y k e p t u s w a i ti n g fo r a
20

lo n g ti m e b u t w h e n M r S h a n e o p e n e d t h e m e e ti n g b y s a y i n g w e a r e n o w
g e t t in g to o n e o f t h e m o s t d i ff ic u l t d is c u s s i o n s . I h a d a s e n s e t h a t t h e y
c o u l d h a v e g r a p p l e d w i th i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Maybe

they

were

a c t u a l ly

lo o k in g a t i t t o s a y th is is s o c o m p l e x a n d h o w d o w e a c t u a ll y d e a l w i t h

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it b u t i t w a s j u s t m y i n fe r e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

H m , b u t th e r e c o u l d n o t h a v e b e e n a C o m m i t t e e

b e c a u s e y o u s a i d o n e o f th e m e m b e r s w a s w a i ti n g f o r t h e m w i th y o u .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: M r N a g d e e w a s a c tu a l ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L M O S I D I: I n t h e – in t h e B o a r d M e e t i n g w i t h u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d h e w a s a m e m b e r o f t h e C o m m i t te e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

He was a member of the ADC

Committee.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o s o m e m e m b e r s o f th e C o m m i t t e e – t h r e e m e m b e r s
went – were away for quite some time.

Yo u d o n o t e x a c tly w h a t th e y

d is c u s s e d b u t y o u a r e s a y i n g t h a t t h e w a y - t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h
M r S h a n e s t a r t e d t h e m e e ti n g i n r e g a r d t o t h i s i s s u e s u g g e s te d t o y o u
t h a t m a y b e t h a t is w h a t t h e y m a y h a v e b e e n d is c u s s i n g b u t …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a i r …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

B e c a u s e o f th e c o m p l e x i ty th a t

t h e y w e r e s e e in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t th a n k y o u .
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t h i n k t h e y w e r e c h a f in g – i f I

c a n m e n t io n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: M r N a g d e e w h o r e m a in e d b e h in d
w a s a c t u a l ly th e o v e r s e e r o f I T b e c a u s e o f h is b a c k g r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S o o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d

him to – to be very vocal about …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h i s p a r tic u la r t e n d e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d – a n d h o w w e a r e g o i n g to
m i ti g a te …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: B u t I d o r e c a l l th a t h e d i d m a k e
10

a c o m m e n t t o s a y th e b i g g e s t fe a r f a c t o r o f th is t e n d e r is th e m i g r a ti o n
o f d a ta .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W h i c h i s tr u e . I t h a p p e n s a l l th e
ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

J u s t h o w y o u m i g r a t e t h e d a ta

a n d m a k e s u r e th a t t h e c o m p l e t e n e s s o f th a t m i g r a ti o n is a c t u a ll y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: 1 0 0 p e r c e n t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

So I did ja – he did make a

s m a ll c o m m e n t b u t I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c t e d h i m t o a c tu a lly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Be the one who was very vocal

…

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CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A b o u t t h i s t e n d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: At page 190 of the bundle appears a
m e m o r a n d u m a n d i ts p u r p o s e i s r e c o r d e d i n p a r a g r a p h 1 :
“ To r e q u e s t t h e B o a r d o f D i r e c t o r s t o a , a p p r o v e t h e
a w a r d o f a c o n tr a c t t o T- S y s t e ms S o u t h A f r ic a ( P t y )
L td f o r a p e r i o d o f fiv e y e a r s w i t h a n o p t io n to
e x t e n d f o r a f u r th e r p e r io d o f t w o y e a r s a n d b , g r a n t
10

a u t h o r i ty t o t h e G C E t o s i g n t h e le t t e r o f i n te n t t o
t h e p r e fe r r e d b i d d e r – T- S y s t e m s , L e t te r s o f R e g r e t
– L O R – to th e u n s u c c e s s f u l b i d d e r s , th e c o n tr a c t
and

a ll

relevant

d o c u m e n ta t io n

i n c lu d i n g

any

s u b s e q u e n t c o n tr a c t a m e n d m e n ts . ”
I f y o u t u r n to p a g e 2 0 1 p a r a g r a p h 5 1 a l ig n s w i t h t h e p u r p o s e a n d
a p p e a r s – i t a p p e a r s t o b e s i g n e d b y M r G a r r y P i t a a s th e G r o u p C h ie f
Fi n a n c i a l O ff ic e r o n 1 4 /0 2 / 2 0 1 7 a n d r e c o m m e n d e d b y S iy a b o n g a G a m a
t h e G r o u p C h i e f Ex e c u ti v e o n 1 5 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 7 . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W e l l i t is c o r r e c t .
20

ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Okay and so it was not signed by the
C h a ir p e r s o n o f t h e C o m m i t t e e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir i t w a s n o t s i g n e d b y th e

C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e A D C C o m m i t t e e . O n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d th a t a t
t h e s ta g e b e c a u s e a s m a n a g e m e n t w e a c t u a l ly m a k e s u b m i s s i o n s t o t h e
A D C S u b C o m m i t t e e a n d th e C h a ir m a n o f t h e S u b C o m m i t t e e t a k e s

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
o w n e r s h ip n o w o f t h e d e c is i o n s o f th a t – t o t h e B o a r d .

T h is o n e w a s

a c t u a ll y d o n e b y M r G a r r y P i t a a n d M r G a m a b u t p e r h a p s b e c a u s e t h e y
w e r e b o t h D ir e c t o r s o f Tr a n s n e t b u t t o m e i t d i d n o t a c t u a ll y lo o k r ig h t
when I saw it.
CHAIRPERSON: Because what should have gone to …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: To t h e m a i n B o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e m a in B o a r d s h o u l d c o m e f r o m t h e C o m m i t t e e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

From the Committee itself and

…
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t s h o u l d b e s i g n e d o ff b y t h e

C h a ir m a n o f th a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : By t h e C h a ir p e r s o n , y e s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S u b C o m m i t t e e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: At page 15 paragraph 38 you make …
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll b e fo r e – b e f o r e t h a t th is g iv e s t h e i m p r e s s i o n

t h a t – I a m g o i n g b a c k to p a g e 1 9 0 . Th is g iv e s t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t i t is
a – i t i s a m e m o r a n d u m c o m i n g fr o m ju s t th e Ex e c u ti v e s a n d g o i n g
20

s tr a ig h t t o …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h e m a in B o a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To t h e B o a r d . Is t h a t r i g h t?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s C h a ir.

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h i s n o t c o r r e c t ?

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T h a t is w h a t i t

10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W h i c h i s n o t c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w M r G a m a w a s n o w s i g n in g a m e m o r a n d u m
s a y in g – r e c o m m e n d i n g T- S y s t e m s w h e r e a s p r e v i o u s ly h a d s ig n e d a
memorandum recommending …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: R e c o m m e n d i n g G i ji m a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : G i ji m a ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u – y o u h a v e r e a d t h is m e m o r a n d u m .

Yo u h a v e

r e a d t h is m e m o r a n d u m ?
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w d o e s i t d e a l w i t h t h e m o t iv a ti o n t h a t t h e o th e r

m e m o r a n d u m t h a t h e s i g n e d h a d p u t fo r w a r d f o r r e c o m m e n d i n g G ij i m a ?
J u s t b r i e fly w h a t a r e y o u a b le t o h i g h l ig h t ?

D o e s i t e n g a g e w it h t h e

r e a s o n s – in o t h e r w o r d s o r d o e s i t s e e m to b e j u s t a s ta n d a l o n e
s e p a r a t e a n d d o w i t h o u t th e b a c k g r o u n d o f th e o t h e r m e m o r a n d u m ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a . S o C h a ir i f y o u l o o k a t t h a t
m e m o r a n d u m a n d y o u g o to 1 9 9 i t h i g h l ig h ts a w h o l e l o t o f r e a s o n s th a t
w e r e r a is e d b y th e A D C a n d w h e r e i t w a s o n e t a l k i n g t o t h e r i s k th a t th e
A D C w a s a c tu a l ly s e e i n g w i t h t h is p a r t ic u la r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n a n d h o w
20

G ij i m a w a s t h e ( in d is ti n c t) b id d e r.

H o w G i ji m a c o u ld n o t h a v e f o r

e x a m p l e th e y w o u ld s a y th e p r ic i n g p r o v i d e d w a s a f t e r t h e y h a d a c c e s s
t o s p e c i fic d e t a ils .

S o i t – i t e x p l a in e d a l l t h o s e t h i n g s th a t s o m e o f

t h e m – I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r h e a r i n g i n t h e B o a r d b u t I t h in k th e – t h e
m e m o r a n d u m w a s j u s t s u m m a r i s i n g t h e v i e w s th a t t h e B o a r d w a s
s a y in g .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d th o s e v i e w s w e r e v i e w s t h a t h a d b e e n c o n t a i n e d
in M r S h a n e ’s a d d r e s s a t t h e m e e t in g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o m e o f t h e m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t s o m e o f th e m …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o m e o f t h e m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e r e n e w – w e r e n o t t h e r e n e c e s s a r i ly ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: N o t n e c e s s a r i ly r e a ll y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y a l r i g h t , th a n k y o u .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Ms Mosidi did Mr Gama send you any
10

c o m m u n ic a ti o n d u r i n g th a t m e e t i n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: O h , i n th e – i n t h e A D C ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s , b u t I d i d n o t s e e i t w h e n I
w a s i n t h e A D C . I s a w i t a ft e r I le f t b u t I r e a li s e d t h a t h e h a d s e n t m e a
W h a t s A p p t o s a y s t o p fi g h t in g . Yo u c a n s e e w h a t t h e B o a r d w o u ld l ik e
t o h a v e b u t I o n l y s a w i t a f te r. S o I c o u l d n o t h a v e r e a c t e d in t i m e t o i t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t d i d y o u m a k e o f t h a t m e s s a g e c o m i n g fr o m …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Fr o m m y b o s s .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m y o u r b o s s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I fe lt d i s a p p o i n t e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

B e c a u s e C h a ir I th i n k a f te r t h is

p a r t ic u l a r e n g a g e m e n t w i th t h e B o a r d I s h o u l d s a y m y – m y e n e r g y
waned …

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CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d – a n d a ls o I n e v e r a c tu a lly
a s k e d h i m w h y h e s e n t m e t h e W h a t s A p p b e c a u s e I t h i n k h e w a n te d m e
– I s h o u l d h a v e s t o p p e d e a r l i e r i n t h e d is c u s s io n s i n t h e B o a r d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I f I h a d s e e n h i s W h a ts A p p …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

B u t I a m n o t i n t h e h a b it o f

a c t u a ll y c h e c k i n g W h a t s A p p m u c h w h e n I a m i n a m e e t in g t h a t is t h a t
10

d i ff ic u l t . S o I d i d n o t s e e i t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

B u t I w a s – I w a s f e e l in g

d is a p p o in t e d b e c a u s e I th o u g h t w e w e r e a ll a c t u a lly – w e h a v e b o u g h t
in t o w h a t w e n e e d e d to d o a s m a n a g e m e n t a n d w e w e r e g o in g t o h e l p
e a c h o th e r t o e x p la i n t o th e B o a r d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h e w h o l e p r o c e s s t h a t w e h a v e
u n d e r t a k e n . H o w w e a r e g o i n g t o m i ti g a te t h e r is k s a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

A n d h o w w e w i ll c o n t in u o u s ly

k e e p t h e B o a r d a b r e a s t a n d th e y s h o u l d a c t u a lly tr u s t u s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I w a s e x p e c t i n g t h a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S o w h e n I s a w th e W h a t s A p p

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
a ft e r …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I f e l t a l i t tl e b i t d is c o u r a g e d in

terms of …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W h a t w e n e e d e d to d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e m a y b e t w o o r m o r e w a y s o f u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t
message.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: H m .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

O n e o f t h e m m ig h t b e t h a t h e w a s s a y i n g l o o k n o

m a t t e r w h a t y o u s a y i t is q u i t e c l e a r w h i c h w a y th is B o a r d i s g o in g .
Yo u a r e w a s ti n g y o u r t i m e j u s t s a v e y o u r …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: B r e a th .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u r b r e a t h j a w i t h o u t n e c e s s a r i ly s a y i n g t h e B o a r d

was right.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is o n e w a y o f l o o k i n g a t i t . I t m a y b e – m a y b e
a n o t h e r w a y mi g h t b e t h a t h e w a n t e d – h e d i d n o t w a n t y o u a t t h a t
s t a g e to o p p o s e t h e B o a r d w h e n t h e B o a r d w a n t e d t h i n g s in a c e r t a i n
20

w a y a n d t h e r e f o r e th e B o a r d i s r i g h t. M a y b e t h a t m ig h t b e a n o t h e r w a y.
T h e r e m i g h t b e a n o t h e r i n te r p r e t a t i o n .

W h i c h i n t e r p r e ta t io n d i d y o u

a tt a c h to i t?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: C h a ir a c t u a l ly to o k t h e la t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a , a s m y f ir s t r e a c ti o n .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t – t h a t h e – h e d id n o t w a n t t o – y o u t o o p p o s e
the Board?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a a n d n o t n e c e s s a r i ly t h a t h e w a s s a y in g l o o k I d o

not …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A g r e e w i t h – w i t h th e m b u t s to p fi g h t in g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h a t w a s – t h e l a tt e r is t h e o n e
t h a t c a m e fir s t t o m in d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I s i t c o r r e c t t h a t f o l l o w in g th is

m e e ti n g e v e r y t h in g w e n t - a s y o u s t a t e i n p a r a g r a p h 4 1 – a d a r k h o l e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s .

Yo u k n o w C h a ir I t h in k –

what - what paragraph is that?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Paragraph 41 on page 16.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ja.

Ja, because once the ADC

h a d r e c o m m e n d e d t o t h e m a i n B o a r d a n d t h e m a in B o a r d h a d ta k e n t h e
20

r e s o l u ti o n t o a w a r d t o T- Sy s te m s I n e v e r k n e w w h a t – w h a t to d o n e x t .
I k e p t o n r e q u e s ti n g p r o c u r e m e n t t o g u i d e u s i n t h e p r o c e s s . H o w f a r
a w a y, w h e n d o w e s ta r t t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s ?

I t w a s a l l q u ie t . I w a s n o t

e v e n a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a n o b je c ti o n t h a t w a s r e g i s t e r e d b y G i ji m a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s M o s id i . A r e y o u o n h e r e s ta t e m e n t?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Ye s C h a i r.

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e a b o u t?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I t is p a g e 1 6 p a r a g r a p h 4 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ja.

S o C h a ir y e s I j u s t –

Ms September was asking me a dark hole and I was saying it was a
d a r k h o le b e c a u s e I j u s t n e v e r k n e w w h e r e t h e p r o c e s s w a s .

As a

b u s i n e s s o w n e r I d i d e x p e c t t o b e c o p ie d - fo r e x a m p l e – w h e n t h e
L e t t e r o f Aw a r d w a s s e n t o u t . I o w n e d t h e r e q u ir e m e n t . I h a d t o k n o w
w h a t w e w e r e c o m m u n ic a ti n g to T- S y s t e m s .
10

I did not know and even

w h e n t h e r e w a s a n o b j e c ti o n I d i d n o t k n o w. I k e p t o n in q u ir i n g w h e n
do we start.

I n f a c t th e f o r m e r C h i e f E x e c u ti v e o f T- S y s t e ms e v e n

c a l l e d m e t o s a y M a k a n o w h e n d o w e s t a r t n e g o ti a ti o n s . I s a i d n o , I a m
w a i ti n g f o r m y p r o c u r e m e n t p e o p l e to t e l l m e n o w th e y a r e d o n e w i th
t h e ir p r o c e s s .

Th e y w il l a c t u a l ly g i v e m e t h e g o a h e a d t o s ta r t

e n g a g i n g w i t h y o u b u t C h a i r t h a t n e v e r a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d .

So I – I

s t a r t e d h e a r in g p o s t th e e v e n ts t h a t G i ji m a o b j e c t e d a n d s o a n d s o o n .
S o I w a s n o t q u i t e c l o s e to t h a t p r o c e s s a t a l l.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a ir I c a n n o t h e l p b u t n o t ic e t h e

ti m e a n d I a m j u s t g u i d e d b y y o u .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H o w m u c h m o r e ti m e d o y o u t h in k w e n e e d t o fi n i s h ?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Pr o b a b ly 2 0 m i n u t e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm?
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Pr o b a b ly 1 5 / 2 0 m i n u te s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , l e t u s tr y a n d fi n is h .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s ti ll fi n e w i th y o u M s M o s id i?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir y e s b e c a u s e I t h in k t h e

r e m a in d e r o f m y s t o r y r e a ll y is v e r y, v e r y s h o r t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay thank you.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : Is it c o r r e c t t h e n M s M o s id i t h a t y o u
w e r e s u b s e q u e n t ly i n v o lv e d a n d r e q u e s t e d to e n g a g e i n s e t tl e m e n t
n e g o ti a ti o n s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir. S o in a n a t te m p t t o –
t o b u ff e r Tr a n s n e t b e c a u s e w h e n t h e l e g a l w r a n g l e s t a r t e d b e t w e e n
10

T- S y s t e ms a n d G ij i m a Tr a n s n e t is t h e o n e t h a t a c tu a lly s u ff e r e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

W h y d o y o u l e a v e o u t Tr a n s n e t ?

They were just as

much of …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

J a , I ju s t th o u g h t t h e y w e r e –

t h e y w e r e t h e b e n e f ic ia r y o f th e c o n s e q u e n c e s , j a s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, r i g h t y e s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S o t h e n t h e y w e r e a c t u a l ly

fi g h ti n g a n d – a n d h a v i n g a tu g o f w a r it w a s Tr a n s n e t t h a t w a s a c t u a l ly
s u ff e r i n g b e c a u s e w e c o u l d n o t d o a n y t h i n g .

At the same time Chair

Tr e a s u r y w a s s a y in g w e w i ll n o t g i v e y o u a n o t h e r e x te n s i o n a n d w e
20

n e e d e d th e e x te n s i o n b e c a u s e e v e n i f w e a r e g o i n g tr a n s i t io n w e s ti ll
n e e d e d T- S y s t e m s t o b e p a r t o f th a t p r o c e s s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : I f I c a n i n te r r u p t y o u t h e r e .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

H a v in g m e n ti o n e d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y

is a ls o c o r r e c t t h a t a t p a r a g r a p h 4 4 . 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t N a ti o n a l

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Tr e a s u r y g a v e p a r ti c u l a r d ir e c t io n t o Tr a n s n e t i n r e la t io n t o th e a w a r d
t o T- Sy s t e m s ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s .

So for me even that

in f o r m a ti o n I g o t s e c o n d - h a n d b u t y e s I w a s t o ld th a t N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y
h a s g iv e n u s d i r e c t iv e t o a c tu a lly r e s c i n d th e a w a r d t o G ij i m a – t o
T- S y s t e ms a n d t o a w a r d t o G i ji m a .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

And

was

the

d e c is i o n

in

fact

rescinded?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
10

I u n d e r s t a n d th a t o n t h e – i n

S e p te m b e r s o m e t i m e th e B o a r d t o o k a d e c i s io n t o r e s c i n d t h e a w a r d .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: And if one …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h a t s t il l t h e s a m e B o a r d ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

It w a s s til l t h e p r e v i o u s B o a r d

yes not the current Board.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i f o n e t h e n tu r n s t o p a g e 2 0 3

t h e r e a p p e a r s m i n u te s o f t h e S p e c i a l B o a r d o f D ir e c t o r s M e e ti n g h e ld
o n 2 7 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 7 a n d i f y o u t h e n tu r n to p a g e 2 0 7 th e R e s o l u ti o n
o f t h e B o a r d to r e s c i n d t h e a w a r d i s d o c u m e n t e d u n d e r p a r a g r a p h
20

4 .1 . 1 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said page 203.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: 2 0 7 .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

2 0 3 i s in fa c t th e fir s t p a g e t o t h e

M i n u t e o f th e S p e c i a l B o a r d M e e t in g t h a t w a s h e ld a n d th e a c t u a l
R e s o l u t i o n o f th e B o a r d to r e s c i n d r e f le c t s o n p a g e 2 0 7 a n d a t

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
p a r a g r a p h 4 .1 . 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPT EMBER: Can I then take you back to just give
an overview of …?
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e t a k in g h e r b a c k I – I a s k e d e a r l ie r o n

M s M o s id i w h e th e r i t w a s t h e s a m e B o a r d a n d y o u s a i d y e s b u t I – I d o
n o t s e e M r S h a n e in – i n t h e li s t o f m e m b e r s o n p a g e 2 0 3 .

Am I

m is s i n g s o m e t h in g o r h e m ig h t n o t h a v e n o t b e e n t h e r e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:
10

C h a ir w h i ls t I w il l n o t h a v e th e

e x a c t d a y s I r e m e m b e r t h a t Mr S h a n e s u b s e q u e n t ly r e s i g n e d fr o m th e
B o a r d o f Tr a n s n e t …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Before

we

concluded

th is

process.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e t h is m e e ti n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: P o s s ib ly b e f o r e th is m e e ti n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d I t h in k t h a t w il l e x p l a i n w h y
he was not here.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a b e c a u s e I s e e t h a t h e is n o t
e v e n m e n ti o n e d u n d e r a p o l o g i e s . S o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e l l i t i s j u s t s e e m s s tr a n g e b e f o r e h e s p o k e a t
t h e o t h e r m e e t in g n o b o d y s e e m e d to b e a g a in s t y o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n
t h a t G iji m a s h o u l d b e g i v e n th e – t h e t e n d e r. A f t e r h e s p o k e … .

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: E v e r y b o d y w e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M e m b e r – m e m b e r s o f t h e C o m m i t t e e a l l a g r e e d w i th
him.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A f te r h e s p o k e a g a i n s t i t a n d t h e n w h e n h e is n o t

t h e r e t h e n th e y …
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h e y g o …
CHAIRPERSON: They change the decision.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Can I then take

y o u b a c k a n d j u s t a s k y o u e x p l a i n t h e e n g a g e m e n t i n t h e s e t t le m e n t
n e g o ti a ti o n s a n d y o u h a v e – a s y o u h a v e e a r li e r a ll u d e d to i n s p e c i fi c
r e g a r d t o t h e q u a n t u m o r t h e v a l u e o f s e t t l e m e n t n e g o t ia t io n s t h a t w e r e
being discussed.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o C h a ir i n a n a tt e m p t to b r o k e r
t h is i m p a s s e b e c a u s e w e c o u l d n o t d o a n y t h i n g a n d w e s p e n t o u r t i m e
a n d r e s o u r c e s tr y i n g t o r e s o lv e t h e le g a l w r a n g l e s M r G a m a d ir e c t e d
m e t o n e g o t ia t e a s e t tl e m e n t t o s e e i f a s e t t le m e n t o u t o f c o u r t w i ll
20

a c t u a ll y a c c e l e r a te t h e p r o c e s s o f c l e a r i n g t h e i m p a s s e a n d g o in g o n
w i t h o u r b u s i n e s s a n d i n th a t m e e ti n g h e d id c a ll m e t o g e th e r w i t h
M r Si li n g a b u t I a m th e o n e w h o a c t u a ll y c a r r i e d o u t t h e d is c u s s io n s
a n d t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s .

I m e t w i t h b o th T- S y s t e ms a n d G i ji m a .

Ye s i t

w a s n o t a n e a s y d is c u s s io n m o v in g f r o m o n e to th e o t h e r. It w a s li k e
w e w e r e g o in g t o m a k e a – a b r e a k t h r o u g h a n d t h e n T- Sy s t e m s w il l s a y

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
n o w e c a n n o t a c c e p t t h i s o r w e c a n n o t a c c e p t t h a t b u t a l s o I t h in k w h a t
s t a r t e d b e in g o f a c o n c e r n t o m e i s h o w i t w a s b e g in n in g t o b e
c o n s tr u e d t o b e s o m e b o d y s o lic i ti n g a b r ib e o r s o m e t h in g t h a t i s n o t
c o r r e c t a n d w h ils t T- S y s t e ms d i d i n d ic a t e i n f o r m a ll y t o s a y t h e y w il l
s e t tl e f o r a b o u t 7 5 m il li o n w e w e r e n o t a c t u a ll y p r e p a r e d t o g o – t o g iv e
t h e m a n y t h i n g m o r e t h a n R 2 0 m ill i o n w h i c h w a s a f a r c r y f r o m w h e r e
t h e y w e r e i n t e r m s fo r t h e ir a s p ir a ti o n s . S o i n th e e n d w h e n w e h a v e
g o n e u p a n d d o w n I t h e n w r o t e a f in a l le t t e r t o s a y t h e o ff e r i s o ff t h e
t a b le fo r m a l ly a n d fi n a l ly a n d w e w i ll g o b a c k t o t h e p r o c e s s o f t r y i n g t o
10

h a g g l e t h is o u t in c o u r t . S o t h a t p r o c e s s w a s a c tu a lly c o n c l u d e d in t h a t
f a s h i o n w h e r e e v e r y t h i n g w a s o ff t h e t a b l e .

N o m o n e y w a s p a i d to

a n y b o d y b u t t h e i d e a r e a l ly w a s t o s a y b e c a u s e w e w il l a ls o n e e d
T- S y s t e ms to tr a n s i t io n l e t u s g iv e t h e m a n in c e n ti v e to tr a n s i t io n
q u ic k ly b e c a u s e th e y c a n a c t u a ll y fr u s tr a te th e p r o c e s s s o m u c h
b e c a u s e t h e y a r e t h e c u r r e n t i n c u m b e n t . T h e y c a n a c t u a l ly s t a y t h e r e
f o r t h e n e x t t w o y e a r s tr y i n g t o tr a n s i t io n a n d I a m n o t s a y in g t h e y a r e
lik e t h a t b u t th a t is w h a t - th a t is w h a t w i ll h a p p e n b e c a u s e w e a r e
r e a l ly i n a m e s s .

S o it m a k e s s e n s e w h e n M r G a m a s a y s i t w il l b e a

p e r f o r m a n c e b o n u s o f R 2 0 m il li o n f o r t h e m t o tr a n s it i o n q u ic k ly t o
20

G ij i m a s o t h a t w e g e t o n w i th o u r b u s i n e s s b u t th a t w h o l e p r o p o s i ti o n
w a s t h e n t a k e n o ff t h e t a b le f o r m a lly.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : J u s t in r e l a ti o n t o y o u r e n g a g e m e n ts
- t h e r e w a s o n e p a r t ic u l a r e n g a g e m e n t t h a t y o u h a d w it h G i ji m a o n
p a g e 1 8 p a r a g r a p h 5 1 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t w h ic h t a lk s t o a p r iv a t e
m e e ti n g th a t w a s h a d . C a n y o u j u s t b r ie f ly e x p l a i n t h e d e t a i ls o f t h i s

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
m e e ti n g p le a s e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

S o C h a ir i n t h a t p r o c e s s w h e n

w e w e r e n e g o t i a t i n g a n d tr y i n g t o c l e a r t h e i m p a s s e b u t w h e n G ij i m a
w a s a ls o tr y in g to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e y g e t o n - b o a r d b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e
r e a l is i n g t h a t t h e y w e r e th e r e c o m m e n d e d p a r t y a n d t h e y c o u l d n o t w a i t
t o t a k e o v e r. Th e r e w a s a d a y th a t a m e e t in g w a s s c h e d u l e d a n d i t j u s t
h a d a n a d d r e s s i n my c a le n d a r a n d s o I j u s t f o ll o w e d it in m y c a r b u t I
then

ended

S a x o n w o ld .
10

up

at

M r G u m e d e ’s

house

S o I w a s th e r e a lr e a d y.

w h ic h

is

somewhere

in

I entered and yes we had our

m e e ti n g t h e r e a n d i n th e m e e ti n g i t w a s M r G u m e d e . It w a s Mr S a m u e l
w h o w a s t h e C E O o f G i ji m a . I t w a s M r N x u m a lo w h o w a s t h e C O O o f
G ij i m a a n d t h e m e e ti n g w h il s t it w a s r e a ll y ju s t t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e
r e a d in e s s to a c t u a ll y tr a n s i ti o n a n d ta k e o v e r th e w o r k I th i n k I w a s
v e r y u n c o m f o r ta b le th a t i t w a s in s o m e b o d y ’s h o u s e .

I w is h I h a d

known.
C H A I R P E R S O N : In - in w h o s e h o u s e w a s it ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t w a s i n M r R o b e r t G u m e d e ’s

house.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr G u m e d e ’s h o u s e ?
20

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

Ye s h o w is th e C h a ir m a n o f

G ij i m a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: S o I fe l t v e r y u n c o m f o r t a b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d – a n d w h o h a d c a l le d th e m e e ti n g ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I t w a s c a ll e d b y Mr N x u m a lo

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w h o w a s t h e C O O o f G ij i m a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h y d i d y o u a g r e e to g o t o M r G u m e d e ’s h o u s e ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I d id n o t – I a c t u a ll y t h o u g h t i t

w a s o n e o f th e ir o ff ic e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: U n t il I f o l l o w e d t h e G P S …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: To …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d I s t a r t e d r e a lis i n g I a m i n a
r e s id e n ti a l a r e a …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

B y th e n i t w a s t o o l a te .

They

w e r e w a i ti n g f o r m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a . S o I – b u t I d id e x p r e s s m y
d is p le a s u r e t o M r N x u m a l o a n d I s e n t h i m a W h a ts A p p a n d I s a i d
20

M a p h u m I d o r e a l ly p r e f e r o ffic e m e e ti n g s . A n y o ff ic e y o u r s o r m i n e b u t
e v e n fo r n e x t t i m e le t u s n o t d o i t th is w a y. I j u s t w a n t e d t o c l a r i f y m y
p o s i ti o n i n te r m s o f s u c h .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : T h e n e w B o a r d – th e n e w B o a r d t h e n
c o m e s o n - b o a r d d u r i n g M a y 2 0 1 8 . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: Ye s , y e s , y e s .
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

W h a t w a s t h e n th e e n g a g e m e n t w i th

t h e n e w B o a r d i n r e s p e c t o f t h is p a r t ic u l a r t e n d e r ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: J a . S o w e h a d – w e h a d s e v e r a l
m e e ti n g s w i t h t h e B o a r d .

In f a c t w h e n th e n e w B o a r d c a m e I w a s

a l m o s t t h e fir s t E x e c u t iv e t o s ta r t e n g a g i n g w i t h t h e m i n d e t a i l b e c a u s e
o f n o t o n l y t h is te n d e r b u t o t h e r I T te n d e r s a s w e ll a n d I r e m e m b e r w e –
s e j u s t h a d s e v e r a l m e e t in g s w h e r e w e w e r e p r e s e n ti n g b e c a u s e n o w
w e w e r e i n a c o r n e r C h a ir. Tr e a s u r y w a s s a y in g th e y a r e n o t g o i n g t o
10

g iv e u s a fu r t h e r e x t e n s i o n . W e d id n o t h a v e a n y o n e t o a w a r d t o . W e
h a d t o g o t o th e c o u r t .

T h e c o u r t p r o c e s s w a s g o i n g t o t a k e f o r e v e r.

W e w e r e g o in g t o m is s th e d e a d li n e w i t h N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y.

So we

w e r e a c t u a ll y g o i n g t o s ta r t d o i n g e x p a n d i n g u n a u th o r is e d – s o w e h a d
t o p l a y v i s i b i li ty fo r th e B o a r d .

S o t h e n e w B o a r d e n g a g e d a n d th e y

r e a l ly tr ie d t o u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e w e w e r e c o m i n g f r o m .

W e p r e s e n te d

t h e t w o o p t i o n s – t h e o p ti o n s t h a t w e h a d a n d w e e v e n s ta r t e d p l a y in g
w i t h th e o p t io n o f t r a n s i ti o n i n g t o o u r s e lv e s a s Tr a n s n e t a n d w h il s t i t
w a s a r e a ll y b r i ll ia n t i d e a to tr a n s it i o n t o Tr a n s n e t – Tr a n s n e t w a s fa r
fr o m r e a d y. I t h a d n e v e r i n s o u r c e d th e s e s e r v ic e s . W h e n y o u l o o k a t
20

t h e c a p a b i li t y a n d th e s k il ls t h a t w e r e r e q u ir e d t h e r e w a s n o w a y i n
w h ic h w e w e r e g o in g t o d o t h i s . S o i t b e c a m e – i t b e c a m e th e o n e w i t h
t h e h i g h e s t r is k a n d s o w e – w e t h e n s u m m a r i s e d a n d s h o w e d t o t h e
B o a r d t o s a y t h e o n ly w a y o u t f o r u s a n d w e t h in k th a t i f w e s t a r t
tr a n s i t io n i n g t o G ij i m a Tr e a s u r y w i l u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w e n e e d t h e ti m e to
tr a n s i t io n a n d w e w il l n o t g e t i n t o a s p a c e w h e r e w e g o u n a u t h o r i s e d .

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S o w e a c t u a l ly p r e s e n t e d a n d s h o w e d th e m t h a t G ij i m a w a s t h e l e a s t
r is k – t h e G ij i m a o p t io n w a s t h e l e a s t r is k o p ti o n i n t e r m s o f w h e r e w e
w e r e a n d I th i n k t h e y s t a r te d u n d e r s ta n d i n g t h a t e x c e p t t h a t fo r th e ir
o w n c o n v i c t i o n a n d a s s u r a n c e t h e y n e e d e d a n in d e p e n d e n t p e r s o n t o
a c t u a ll y lo o k a t t h is w h o le p r o c e s s i n te r m s o f h o w w e w e r e t h in k i n g
a b o u t i t a n d I t h i n k C h a ir a t t h a t t i m e w h e n y o u w a n t a n i n d e p e n d e n t
r e v ie w e r i t m u s t b e a n o t h e r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o c e s s a n d C h a ir it w a s a t
t h a t – a t th a t p o in t t h a t I a c t u a l ly te n d e r e d m y r e s i g n a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e r e y o u f e e li n g th a t t h is t h i n g w a s t a k i n g t o o l o n g
10

o r w h a t o r i t w a s j u s t c o in c i d e n t a l ?
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

C h a ir t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f

t h i n g s w h i c h w e r e a t p l a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I t h in k t h e fi r s t o n e I r e a l ly h a d
a n o p p o r t u n i ty I c o u ld n o t s a y n o to .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

I n t e r m s o f th e j o b I a m s i t ti n g

in . S e c o n d l y I t h in k I s t a r te d r e a l is i n g l o n g i n 2 0 1 7 w h e n – w h e n t h e
B o a r d c h a n g e d th e w h o le a w a r d a n d I c o u l d n o t u n d e r s ta n d …
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: W h y I r e a lis e d th is w a s g o i n g to
b e a n u p h i ll …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: B e c a u s e I w a s n o t f e e li n g l ik e I

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
w a s g e t ti n g v a l u e fr o m t h e B o a r d …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: I n t e r m s o f th e ir i n p u t to u s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I:

B u t a ls o I w a s f e e l in g l ik e t h e y

w e r e fr u s tr a ti n g th e p r o c e s s . I t i s v e r y d i ff ic u l t t o w o r k w h e n y o u a r e
n o t c o n v in c e d th a t t h is i s t h e – w h e n y o u k n o w t h a t th is is w r o n g a n d
y o u w a n t t o w o r k a t i t . S o m e h o w i t d o e s n o t a c t u a l ly a l l g o w e l l e v e n
f o r t h e t e a m s t h a t y o u l e a d . S o I f e l t li k e s o m e t h i n g m u s t c h a n g e . It is
10

a p i ty th e n e w B o a r d c a m e v e r y l a te i n t h e p r o c e s s b u t m y m i n d w a s
a c t u a ll y u n l o c k e d …
CHAIRPERSON: Was made up.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: D i s l o d g e d . I w a n te d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: To lo o k a t s o m e t h in g e l s e a n d I
w a n t e d to g iv e t h e n e w B o a r d s o m e s p a c e f o r th e m to d o th e ir o w n
assessment …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: A n d i n t e r r o g a ti o n .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

C h a i r a n d t h e n l a s t ly i t i s c o m m o n

c a u s e t h a t t h e t e n d e r w a s i n fa c t s e t a s i d e o n 1 2 D e c e m b e r la s t y e a r
a n d i t is a t t a c h e d t o t h e s ta t e m e n t fr o m p a g e s 2 1 4 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k I h a v e s e e n t h e j u d g m e n t – e v e n th e j u d g m e n t .
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : To 2 3 4 …

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10 JUNE 2019 – DAY 109
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

A n d i n p a r t ic u l a r I ju s t w a n t e d t o

h i g h l ig h t p a r a g r a p h s 3 7 , 3 8 a n d 3 9 o f t h e j u d g m e n t .

C a n I ju s t b e

g iv e n a s e c o n d o f i n d u l g e n c e ?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V V E R U S C H K A S E P T E M B E R : C h a ir I h a v e n o f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s fo r
t h is w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ms Mosidi. We appreciate that
y o u c a m e t o g iv e e v i d e n c e , t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d .
10

M S M A K A N O M U R I E L A N N A M O S I D I: T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a n k y o u . W h o i s l e a d i n g e v id e n c e t o m o r r o w ? D o
you remember?
ADV VERUSCHKA SEPTEMBER:

I

u n d e r s ta n d

it

to

be

M s R e fi l w e M o l e f e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. W e w il l – w e w il l s t a r t a t 1 0 t h e n . W e w il l –

w e w i ll a d j o u r n th e p r o c e e d i n g s f o r th e d a y a n d to m o r r o w w e w i ll s t a r t
at 10. We adjourn.
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 11 J U N E 2 0 1 9
20

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