C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 8 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 7 9

20

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 8 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9
CHAIRPERSON:

G o o d m o r n i n g , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.

Before we

s t a r t I j u s t w a n t t o d e a l w i t h s o m e t h i n g e l s e a n d t h e n w e w il l c o n t in u e .
A D V P I E T L O U W : P l e a s e s Yo u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y b e s e a t e d . T h a n k y o u . I n t h e b u s i n e s s d a y
o f Fr id a y th e 4 t h O c to b e r 2 0 0 9 a n a r ti c l e a p p e a r e d o n th e fr o n t p a g e
w h ic h w a s t i tl e d a n d I q u o t e “ Z u m a t o g e t p r e v i e w o f n u k e - d e a l
q u e s t io n s ”

In th a t a r t ic le th e B u s in e s s D a y s a i d t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n

h a d s e n t f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t M r J a c o b Z u m a q u e s t i o n s th a t h e w o u ld b e
10

a s k e d w h e n h e n e x t a p p e a r s i n th e c o m m i s s io n .
I t r e f e r r e d to t h e fa c t t h a t p r i o r to h is a p p e a r a n c e b e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s s io n l a s t ti m e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t – t h e fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t h a d
a s k e d th a t h e b e fu r n is h e d w i t h t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t h e w o u l d b e a s k e d
once he was in the witness desk – on the witness stand and that I as
C h a ir p e r s o n h a d m a d e a d e c is io n t o r e f u s e t h a t h e b e f u r n is h e d w i th
q u e s t io n s in a d v a n c e .
T h e a r tic l e g o e s o n t o s a y t h a t t h e c o m m is s i o n h a d s e n t Mr
Z u m a ’s l a w y e r s e l e v e n p a g e s w i th 8 0 q u e s ti o n s .

When you read the

w h o le a r ti c l e i t c e r t a i n l y g iv e s t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t t h e c o m m i s s io n h a s
20

c h a n g e d i ts d e c is io n o n th e q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r M r Z u m a s h o u l d b e
f u r n is h e d

q u e s t io n s

before

he

–

b e fo r e

he

appears

before

the

c o m m i s s io n .
S i n c e th e n I t h i n k a n o th e r n e w s p a p e r h a s p u b li s h e d t h e s a m e
a r ti c l e .

T h e f a c t o f t h e m a t t e r i s t h e c o m m is s i o n h a s n o t s e n t M r

Z u m a ’s la w y e r s a n y q u e s t io n s .

T h e – t h e r e i s a d o c u m e n t w h ic h h a s

Page 2 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
e l e v e n p a g e s a n d I s a w t h a t i n th e a r t ic l e t h e r e is a r e f e r e n c e t o e l e v e n
pages.

Th e r e is a d o c u m e n t w i th e l e v e n p a g e s t h a t w a s s e n t b y M r

P a u l P r e t o r i u s t o c o u n s e l fo r M r Zu m a . T h a t d o c u m e n t c o n t a i n s a r e a s
o f i n t e r e s t in th e v a r i o u s a ffi d a v it s t h a t h a d p r e v io u s ly b e e n g iv e n t o M r
Z u m a a s t h e a ff i d a v i ts fr o m w h ic h q u e s t io n s w o u ld a r is e .
T h a t d o c u m e n t w a s i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h th e a g r e e m e n t t h a t w a s
r e a c h e d o n t h e 1 9 t h J u ly 2 0 1 9 w h i c h w a s t h e la s t d a y o f M r Z u m a ’s
a p p e a r a n c e b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s i o n t h a t w e e k .
T h e t e r m s o f t h a t a g r e e m e n t w e r e a n n o u n c e d p u b lic ly b y
10

m y s e l f . C o u n s e l f o r M r Z u m a a n d t h e h e a d o f t h e c o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l
t e a m M r P r e to r i u s w e r e a s k e d a f t e r I h a d a n n o u n c e d t h e t e r m s t o
c o n fir m w h e th e r th o s e w e r e t h e t e r m s o f t h e a g r e e m e n t .
T h e y s to o d u p h e r e i n p u b li c a n d c o n f ir m e d th a t th o s e w e r e
t h e te r ms o f t h e a g r e e m e n t. A n y o n e w h o l is te n e d t o t h e te r ms o f t h e
a g r e e m e n t a s I a n n o u n c e d t h e m o r a n y o n e w h o w is h e s to lis t e n t o t h e
r e c o r d i n g o f t h a t d a y w i ll k n o w t h a t th e r e i s n o th in g – th e r e w a s n o t h i n g
t o s a y Mr Z u m a w o u l d b e s e n t q u e s ti o n s .
T h a t s a m e d a y a f te r t h e p r o c e e d i n g s h a d b e e n a d j o u r n e d s o m e
o f t h e T V s t a ti o n s b e g a n t o s a y i n t h e ir r e p o r t in g th a t th e c o m m i s s io n

20

w a s n o w g o i n g t o s e n d M r Zu m a q u e s ti o n s a n d s o m e o f t h e m w e r e
r a i s i n g q u e s ti o n s a s t o w h y h e h a d n o t b e e n g iv e n q u e s ti o n s w h e n h e
had asked for them before the hearing.
E i th e r th e s a m e d a y o r t h e f o l lo w in g d a y b u t I b e l ie v e th e
s a m e d a y th e c o m m i s s io n is s u e d a m e d i a s t a te m e n t c l a r i fy i n g t h i s t h a t
t h e te r ms o f t h e a g r e e m e n t d id n o t in c l u d e th a t Mr Z u m a w o u l d b e

Page 3 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
g iv e n q u e s t io n s i n a d v a n c e th a t h e w o u l d b e a s k e d w h e n h e ta k e s th e
witness stand.
I a m a w a r e th a t s o m e – o n e o r m o r e o f th e T V s t a t i o n s d id
c o r r e c t a n d s a id n o w e g o t i t w r o n g . Th e a r r a n g e m e n t is n o t t h a t h e i s
g o i n g t o b e g iv e n q u e s ti o n s .
O n e w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t th a t w i t h t h a t b a c k g r o u n d i t w o u ld
h a v e b e e n c l e a r t h a t t h e c o m m i s s io n s ti ll s t o o d o n th e p o s i ti o n t h a t th e
f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w o u ld n o t b e g iv e n q u e s ti o n s i n a d v a n c e t h a t h e
w o u ld b e a s k e d o n c e h e t a k e s t h e w i t n e s s s t a n d .
10

I s u b s e q u e n t to m e b e i n g a w a r e o f t h is a r ti c l e i n t h e B u s in e s s
D a y I a s k e d M r P a u l Pr e t o r i u s t o p le a s e g iv e m e t h e d o c u m e n t o n c e
a g a in t h a t h e h a d s e n t t o c o u n s e l f o r M r Z u m a . A n d b e f o r e th a t h e t o l d
m e t h a t th e r e w e r e n o q u e s ti o n s t h a t h e h a d s e n t .
He gave me the document again and I could not see any
q u e s t io n s .

Al l I c o u l d s e e w a s a n in d ic a t io n o f a r e a s i n v a r i o u s

a ffi d a v i ts o r in c i d e n ts o r e v e n ts i n w h ic h t h e l e g a l t e a m w a s s a y i n g
t h e y w e r e i n te r e s t e d s o t h a t h e c o u ld d e a l w i th t h o s e is s u e s i n th e
a ffi d a v i ts c o n t e m p l a te d i n t h e a g r e e m e n t t h a t I a n n o u n c e d .
I th o u g h t i t is i m p o r t a n t t h a t I s e t th e r e c o r d s tr a i g h t b e c a u s e I
20

d o n o t k n o w w h y o n t h e b a s is o f t h e d o c u m e n t th a t w e k n o w i t i s s a i d
t h a t w e h a v e s e n t q u e s t io n s t o M r Z u m a w h e n a m e r e r e a d in g o f th e
d o c u m e n t w i ll s h o w t h a t r e a l ly th e r e a r e n o q u e s t io n s .
I w i ll c a u s e t h a t d o c u m e n t to b e r e le a s e d t o th e p u b li c e i t h e r
t o d a y o r a t t h e l a t e s t t o m o r r o w s o th a t t h e p u b l ic c a n s e e fo r i t s e l f t h a t
t h e r e w e r e n o q u e s ti o n s t h a t w e r e s e n t .

Page 4 of 163

That is the eleven page

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
d o c u m e n t t h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t .
I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r t h e r e m ig h t b e a n e l e v e n p a g e
d o c u m e n t e ls e w h e r e th a t h a s b e e n m a n u fa c t u r e d b y s o m e b o d y e ls e a n d
h a s p r e s e n te d i t t o t h e m e d i a a s c o m in g fr o m u s , th e c o m m i s s i o n b u t
t h e e l e v e n p a g e d o c u m e n t t h a t w e h a v e d o e s n o t h a v e – d o e s n o t g iv e
M r Z u m a q u e s t i o n s . I t i n d ic a t e s t h e a r e a s o n w h ic h q u e s t i o n s w il l a r is e
b u t n o t t h e a c t u a l q u e s t io n s .
W e – w e a p p e a l t o t h e m e d ia to p l e a s e j u s t c h e c k t h e a ff e c ts
a n d t o b e f a i r t o e v e r y b o d y in c l u d i n g th e c o m m i s s i o n .
10

I spoke some

ti m e e a r li e r t h i s y e a r a b o u t a n a r t ic l e t h a t h a d b e e n p u b li s h e d b y t h e
S u n d a y I n d e p e n d e n t i n r e g a r d t o Mr N o m b e m b e w h o is H e a d o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s t ig a ti o n t e a m w h e r e i n t h e a r t ic le i t w a s a ll e g e d t h a t
– o r s o m e b o d y h a d a ll e g e d t h a t h e h a d d o n e c e r t a i n t h i n g s b e c a u s e h e
w a n t e d to b e a p p o i n te d a s N D P P a n d I s a i d t h e n I c a n n o t u n d e r s t a n d
h o w a n y n e w s p a p e r w o u l d p u b l is h th a t s t o r y w h e n t h e e d it o r m u s t k n o w
a n d I w o u l d h a v e e x p e c te d th e j o u r n a li s t c o n c e r n e d t o h a v e k n o w n t h a t
t o b e N D P P y o u n e e d t o h a v e a t l e a s t a le g a l d e g r e e a n d Mr N o m b e m b e
does not have a legal degree.

H e is a n a u d i to r.

But that was

p u b lis h e d .
20

I t h i n k t h a t t h e m e d i a m u s t r e a li s e th a t w h e n th e y d o n o t c h e c k
t h e ir f a c ts p r o p e r l y o r w h e n th e y d o s o m e t h i n g s t h a t a r e d i ffi c u l t t o
u n d e r s t a n d t o t h e o r d i n a r y r e a d e r t h a t m ig h t g iv e r is e to a l l k i n d s o f
s u s p i c i o n s a n d w e d o n o t n e e d a n y u n n e c e s s a r y s u s p ic i o n s t o b e
a s s o c i a t e d w i t h t h e m e d i a . Th e m e d ia p l a y s a v e r y i m p o r t a n t r o l e a n d
t h e y n e e d t o b e r e s p e c t e d , t h e ir r i g h ts n e e d t o b e r e s p e c t e d .

Page 5 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
J o u r n a li s t s d o g e n e r a lly s p e a k i n g a v e r y g o o d jo b .

S o c i e ty

r e l i e s o n t h e m . W e w o u l d li k e to b e a b le t o k n o w t h a t th e y d o th e i r jo b
w i t h t h e n e c e s s a r y p r o f e s s i o n a lis m .
S o w e j u s t a s k t h a t w e b e tr e a t e d fa ir l y a s t h e c o m m i s s io n ju s t
lik e w e s a y e v e r y b o d y s h o u l d b e tr e a te d f a ir ly.
sure

that

the

side

of

the

story

of

the

B u t in o r d e r t o m a k e
commission

is

known

a r r a n g e m e n ts w il l b e m a d e f o r u s – w e w il l m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts to
r e l e a s e t h e d o c u m e n t th a t w a s s e n t to t h e l a w y e r s f o r t h e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t th e o n ly e l e v e n p a g e d o c u m e n t t h a t I k n o w a b o u t t h a t w il l b e
10

released.
Thank you very much. We can now proceed.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Th a n k y o u J u s t ic e . M r Zu m a m a y I j u s t r e m i n d y o u ;
y o u a r e s t il l u n d e r o a t h ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s y o u a r e s ti ll u n d e r o a th M r Zu m a . G o o d m o r n in g .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : G o o d m o r n in g C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y a lr i g h t.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you.
A D V P I E T L O U W : M r Zu m a p e r h a p s to c o m m e n c e th e is s u e s I w is h t o
d e a l w i t h – w i t h e x a c tly w h a t t h e D e p u ty C h i e f J u s t ic e h a s b e e n d e a l i n g

20

w i t h n o w n a m e l y t h e p r e s s a n d t h i n g s h a v e b e e n r e p o r t e d u p to n o w
c o n c e r n i n g y o u a s w e ll .
m a k e is t h i s .

I n t h e fir s t p l a c e – th e f ir s t p o i n t I w is h t o

Yo u w e r e a s k e d q u e s t io n s y e s t e r d a y o u t o f a n y

d is c e r n i b l e s e q u e n c e n o t t h a t t h e r e is a n y t h i n g w r o n g w i th i t b u t y o u
d i d n o t h a v e th e o p p o r tu n i t y t o a c tu a l ly e x p l a i n y o u r w h o l e i n v o lv e m e n t
in t h e m e e ti n g h o w i t c a m e a b o u t a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a f t e r w a r d s a n d

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
w h a t h a p p e n e d d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f th e m e e t in g i n o n e n a r r a t iv e . Yo u
w e r e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s p e r h a p s i m p o r t a n t q u e s ti o n s b u t i n s il o s a n d y o u
d i d n o t h a v e th e o p p o r tu n it y t o e x p l a i n w h a t h a d a c tu a lly h a p p e n e d a s
o n e n a r r a t iv e . N o w t h o s e w h o a r e p r iv y t o th e c o m m i s s io n d o c u m e n t s
w o u ld h a v e r e a d y o u r a ff i d a v i t , th e a ffi d a v i t th a t y o u p r e p a r e d w h e n y o u
a p p li e d t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r J o n a s . A n d t h e r e t h e – th e s t o r y i s to ld i n
it s – i n i ts e x t r e m i ty. B u t ju s t p e r h a p s a l s o b e c a u s e t h is c o m m i s s io n is
c o n d u c t e d i n – i n p u b l ic s c r u ti n y i t is p e r h a p s i m p o r t a n t fo r y o u I w o u ld
t h i n k j u s t a t t h e b e g i n n i n g to g iv e a v e r y q u ic k o v e r v i e w o f h o w it c a m e
10

a b o u t t h a t th is m e e t i n g w a s o r g a n is e d , w h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g
w a s , w h a t y o u r r o l e a n d fu n c t io n w a s a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d a f te r w a r d s ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y t h a n k y o u . I w il l tr y a n d b e q u i c k C h a ir.
A s I h a d s a id …
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o r r y c a n I ju s t s a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y.
ADV PIET LOUW:

Yo u r a ffi d a v i t o f c o u r s e i s a t p a g e 3 7 – s o r r y 7 3 5

w h ic h i s i n Vo lu m e L L 1 .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: B.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Ye s B . L L 1 B . P e r h a p s y o u c a n j u s t k e e p t h a t o p e n
20

n e x t t o y o u a s y o u g i v e a v e r y, v e r y q u ic k o v e r v ie w h i g h le v e l o v e r v i e w
a n d I w i ll a s k y o u q u e s t io n s a b o u t th a t – a b o u t t h e – a b o u t t h e
m e e ti n g s , h o w i t c a m e a b o u t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s w h a t p a g e is t h a t a g a in S ir ?
ADV PIET LOUW:

I – my note says 735 let me just double check.

t h i n k – t h a t is i n d e e d c o r r e c t . A t p a g e – t h e s e c o n d b u n d l e o f L L 1 .

Page 7 of 163

I

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
C H A I R P E R S O N : I th i n k t h e r e m a y b e c o n fu s i o n w i t h t h e c h a n g e s t h a t
w e r e m a d e in th e n u m b e r in g a n d t h e la b e ll i n g .

M a y b e Mr M o k o e n a

s h o u l d j u s t c h e c k t h a t y o u h a v e y o u r fi le s a r e l a b e l l e d t h e s a m e w a y a s
h is in t e r m s o f t h e la t e s t l a b e ll i n g .
ADV PIET LOUW: It is LLB
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
A D V P I E T L O U W : T h e r e q u ir e m e n t f o r th e N a t io n a l D ir e c to r o f P u b lic
P r o s e c u t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. L L 1 B .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h i s is L L 1 B .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a t h e r e is a 1 .
A D V P I E T L O U W : I s a id 1 – 1 [i n d is t in c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d w h a t p a g e d id y o u s a y ?
ADV PIET LOUW: Page 735.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : 7 3 5 o k a y. O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e r e d n u m b e r s – p a g e n u m b e r s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A t t h e l e f t o f. M r Zu m a d o y o u h a v e i t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I h a v e g o t i t S ir.
ADV PIET LOUW:

20

Right keep that next to you I do not want you to

r e a d it o u t . b u t i f y o u c a n j u s t fo r p u r p o s e s o f c o m m e n c in g y o u r r e e x a m in a ti o n t h is m o r n i n g g i v e a q u ic k o v e r v ie w i n a c h r o n o l o g ic a l
fashion of what happened please.
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A :

O k a y.

S o I h a d s a id th e r e w e r e r u m o u r s

m a k i n g t h e r o u n d s o n a c e r t a i n is s u e w h ic h h a s b e e n te r m e d a s
b l a c k m a i li n g b e tw e e n U n c le F a n a a n d M r J o n a s . T h e s e w e r e r u m o u r s

Page 8 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t h a t w e r e p e r s is t in g f o r a fe w m o n t h s a n d b y t h e t i m e I h a d s p o k e n t o
U n c l e F a n a t h is w a s a t a p o i n t w h e r e I w a s li k e o k a y w e n e e d t o – w e
n e e d t o – t o s e e w h a t is g o i n g o n h e r e b e c a u s e o n th e o n e h a n d w h e n I
h a d s p o k e n to U n c le F a n a h e w a s n o t to o s u r e a b o u t t h e r u m o u r s a n d
h e ju s t s a i d , l o o k l e t u s l e a v e i t. I p o p p e d i t u p a g a i n h e s a i d t h e s a m e
t h i n g a n d a t t h e t h ir d I h a v e a s k e d h i m h e s a i d o k a y if y o u a r e v e r y
s u r e a b o u t t h i s a n d s e r i o u s a b o u t t h is y o u r e s o l v e i t. S o h e g a v e m e …
A D V P I E T L O U W : Yo u r e s o lv e i t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . R e s o lv in g m e a n in g s e t u p a m e e t in g , g e t
10

t h e t h r e e o f u s t o s i t d o w n a n d w e w i ll d i s c u s s t h is m a t t e r.
ADV PIET LOUW:

And can – just for the record Mr Mokoena just

r e m i n d e d m e . I f y o u s a y U n c le F a n a y o u m e a n H lo n g w a n e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I t i s Mr H l o n g w a n e y e s s o r r y a b o u t t h a t . C o o l .
J a c a n I ju s t –
ADV PIET LOUW: Go ahead.
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : T h a n k y o u . S o i f I a m n o t m is t a k e n th a t w o u ld
h a v e b e e n t h e p e r io d l e a d in g u p t o O c t o b e r 2 3 r d m e e t in g . I w a s g i v e n
the number obviously by Uncle Fana because I did not have Mr Jonas’
n u m b e r. A s I h a d s a i d I n e v e r m e t h i m b e fo r e . I d i d n o t s e e a n y th i n g
20

untoward.

I t is n o r m a l c o u r s e .

If th e r e is a n y is s u e , if th e r e is a n y

d is c u s s io n t o b e h a d y o u s p e a k to p e o p l e . I d id n o t s e e – t h e y a g r e e d
t o m e e t o r n o t . S o I g o t h is n u m b e r a n d c o n t a c t w a s i n it i a t e d . In i ti a l ly
it w a s v i a s m s a n d th e n o n e o r t w o p h o n e c a ll s b u t t h e r e w a s a b u s y
p e r i o d i n b e t w e e n a n d I t h i n k i t t o o k q u i t e a f e w w e e k s f o r u s to s i t
around the table. So by the time we decided to meet up it was on the

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
2 3 r d M r J o n a s w a s a t N e d l a c w h ic h i s i n R o s e b a n k .
ADV PIET LOUW: 23rd October?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : Ye s .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : S o t h is is t h e d a y i n q u e s t io n . S o t h e N e d la c
o ffic e s a r e i n R o s e b a n k .

I am not too far from Rosebank.

I l iv e i n

S a x o n w o ld a s is k n o w n a n d …
ADV PIET LOUW: Saxonold is the suburb that…
CHAIRPERSON: As – yes.
10

A D V P I E T L O U W : Th a t i s n e x t to R o s e b a n k .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : N e x t t o R o s e b a n k . I t is a d j a c e n t t o R o s e b a n k .
S o I h a d r e c e iv e d a m e s s a g e fr o m Mr J o n a s s a y i n g l o o k I w i ll b e
le a v in g o u t o f to w n l a te r t h i s a f te r n o o n / e v e n i n g .

Th e r e i s a n

o p p o r t u n i ty t o m e e t b e c a u s e N e d l a c s e e m e d lik e i t is fi n i s h i n g o ff e a r l y
t o d a y. A n d th a t is w h e n h e h a d s e n t t h e t i m e s a n d i f I a m n o t m is ta k e n
h e m o v e d it a g a i n a b i t e a r l ie r. I a c tu a lly a r r iv e d t o t h e m e e ti n g s l ig h tl y
la t e b e c a u s e t h e t i m e w a s m o v e d a b i t .

A s I g o t to t h e v e n u e w h ic h

was the Hyatt Regency in Rosebank.
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o – ju s t t o s t o p th e r e f o r a m o m e n t . W h o s e i d e a
20

w a s i t to g o t o th e H y a t t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: It was Mr Jonas’ idea.
A D V P I E T L O U W : A lr ig h t a n d th e n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h e n I g o t t o th e H y a t t h e w a s – h e w a s t h e r e
a lr e a d y s i tt i n g i n t h e r e c e p ti o n – r e c e p t i o n a r e a .
s a y.

A n d g r e e te d h i m .

Th e lo b b y s h o u l d I

E x c h a n g e d v e r y s h o r t p l e a s a n tr ie s a n d

Page 10 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
o b v i o u s l y w e w e r e w a i ti n g f o r U n c l e F a n a t o a r r iv e . A n d i n t h a t i n t e r le a d i n g p e r i o d t h a t is w h e n th e p h o n e c a ll c a m e in a n d s a i d …
A D V P I E T L O U W : W h ic h p h o n e c a l l .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: The phone call that was a venue change phone
call.
A D V P I E T L O U W : J u s t e x p la in t h a t in a b i t m o r e d e t a il p l e a s e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y. S o t h e p h o n e c a l l c a m e in o n m y m o b il e
d e v ic e f r o m U n c l e F a n a t o s a y lo o k I a m n o t c o m f o r ta b l e m e e t in g i n a
p u b lic a r e a . Mr J o n a s a ls o l o o k e d u n c o m f o r ta b le a s w a s I b e c a u s e it i s
10

a h o t e l lo b b y a n d p e o p l e a r e s it t in g a r o u n d t h e r e .
t h e ir o w n p r o f il e o r w h a te v e r i t i s .

Everyone has got

S o t h e p h o n e c a ll c a m e in .

They

h a d t h e d i s c u s s io n b e t w e e n th e t w o o f t h e m a n d I s a i d l o o k w h a t e v e r
y o u g u y s d e c id e w e w il l g o . S o th e v e n u e – t h e d e c is io n f o r t h e v e n u e
w a s a v e r y d i ffic u l t o n e b e c a u s e w e c o u ld n o t g o to U n c l e F a n a ’s h o u s e
because he stays in another suburb in that area.
ADV PIET LOUW: In Hyde Park?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . H e w a s o n h is w a y t o t h e m e e t i n g . H e
w a n t e d t h e m e e ti n g c h a n g e d t o s o m e w h e r e m o r e p r i v a t e a n d t h a t i s
w h e n I h a d s u g g e s t e d d o w n t h e r o a d t h e r e is a p la c e t h a t I d o w o r k
20

fr o m w h ic h h a p p e n s t o b e t h e h o u s e h o l d . A n d th e r e a s o n w h y I d o w o r k
fr o m th e r e is b e c a u s e th e r e a r e a ls o s o m e o ffic e f a c il i ti e s s o I h a d
b e e n c o n d u c ti n g m y m e e ti n g s o u ts id e o f t h e o ffic e f o r a v e r y l o n g ti m e .
Fr o m t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e a s i t i s c a ll e d .
ADV PIET LOUW:

C o u ld I p e r h a p s j u s t i n te r r u p t y o u h e r e .

Why not

your own home we heard it was about 600 meters away from the Gupta

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
r e s id e n c e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I d o n o t c o n d u c t m e e t in g s fr o m my p e r s o n a l

home.
ADV PIET LOUW:

D o y o u h a v e f a c ili t ie s a t h o m e o r d i d y o u h a v e a t

t h a t ti m e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I h a v e g o t a n o ffi c e b u t t h a t is p u r e l y f o r o w n
p r i v a t e m a t te r s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d i f y o u c o u l d j u s t e x p a n d a b i t o n t h e f a c il it i e s a t
t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e .
10

W h a t – w h a t w e r e t h e y l ik e ?

Were there

f a c i li t ie s a n d w h y w o u ld t h a t b e a g o o d p la c e to g o ?
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : J a s o w h e n I s a y f a c il it i e s i t i s ju s t o b v i o u s ly
p r i n ti n g c a p a c i ty s t a ff i n b e t w e e n I m e a n t h e r e is – w h a t is i t – c a te r i n g
sort of.
A D V P I E T L O U W : C a te r i n g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : C a t e r in g y e s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : F o o d , w a t e r, c o ffe e w h a te v e r i t is – s n a c k s a n d
it ju s t m a k e s i t e a s i e r a s o p p o s e d to s i t ti n g i n a c o ff e e s h o p .

I t is a

p r i v a t e a r e a s o th a t is w h a t I m e a n b y o ffic e f a c il i ti e s .
20

A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d c o u l d I ju s t a s k y o u t h is . D o y o u a n y o f th e –
d i d a n y o f t h e – i f I s a y d o I I m e a n b a c k in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Sure.
A D V P I E T L O U W : D id a n y o f t h e G u p ta b r o th e r s w o r k fr o m h o m e ? D i d
t h e y c o n d u c t a n y b u s in e s s f r o m h o m e – fr o m t h a t – th a t s p e c i f ic p a r t o f
w h a t I t h in k h a s g e n e r a l ly b e e n c a ll e d t h e c o m p o u n d ?

Page 12 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . As I s a i d t h e p e r s o n t h a t I w o r k e d v e r y
c lo s e ly w i th w a s a M r To n y G u p t a t h a t is t h e p e r s o n th a t I w a s in
business with and we conducted…
A D V P I E T L O U W : H e i s n o w – h e is …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : R a je s h .
A D V P I E T L O U W : S a y th a t a g a i n p l e a s e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Mr Rajesh – Rajesh Gupta.
A D V P I E T L O U W : R a j e s h G u p t a a ls o k n o w s a s To n y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A ls o k n o w n a s To n y.
10

A D V P I E T L O U W : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
t o g e th e r.

A s I h a d s a i d w e – w e s p e n d a lo t o f ti m e

W e c o n d u c t e d b u s i n e s s o n a d a il y b a s is w h e r e v e r i t w a s .

W h e t h e r i t w a s – w e w e n t – w e w o u l d g o t o t h e o ff ic e a t t i m e s a n d a s I
s a i d y e s t e r d a y I li m i t e d m y m o v e m e n ts t o th e o ffic e a n d w e c o n d u c te d
a l o t o f o u r b u s in e s s fr o m t h e h o u s e h o l d . A s fo r th e o th e r t w o b r o t h e r s
t h e y s p e n t a l o t o f ti m e a t t h e o ff ic e s a n d o b v io u s ly th e r e i s v a r y i n g
o ffic e r s i n M i d r a n d a n d in S a n d to n .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A lr i g h t . S o i t w a s a c o n v e n ie n t v e n u e t o m o v e th e
d is c u s s io n to a s – a n d i f y o u c a n g o o n e th e n .
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW: What happened?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o a f t e r t h e p h o n e c a ll a f t e r th e r e w a s m u t u a l
a g r e e m e n t b e tw e e n t h e th r e e p a r t ie s – I a m o b v io u s ly th e o n e t h a t
c a m e u p w it h th e v e n u e th a t i s w h e n w e d e c id e d to m a k e a m o v e .
A D V P I E T L O U W : D id M r J o n a s k n o w w h e r e y o u w e r e g o i n g ?

Page 13 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PIET LOUW:

D id y o u m e n ti o n t h e n a m e o f th e o w n e r o f t h e

p r o p e r ty, t h e f a m ily ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s I d id .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d w a s h e h a p p y w i th t h a t ?
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : H e w a s – lik e I s a i d t h e w h o l e ti m e f r o m w h e n
I h a d m e t h i m , d u r in g t h e m e e t in g , p o s t th e m e e ti n g th e r e w a s n o
a p p r e h e n s i o n f r o m h i s s id e . T h e r e w a s n o h o s ti li ty. S o t h e w a y I t o o k
it is h e w a s f i n e to d o s o . A n d i f h e w a s n o t h e w o u l d h a v e s a id s o I
10

am sure.
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Fr o m t h a t p o i n t l o g is t ic a l ly h e d e c i d e d t o c o m e
w i t h m e b e c a u s e h e s a id y o u h a v e y o u r o w n v e h i c l e . I s a i d y e s , j u m p
in w i t h y o u . I s a i d n o .
A D V P I E T L O U W : D id h e a s k y o u a b o u t y o u r v e h ic l e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : D id h e a s k y o u t o – i n f a c t g o w i t h y o u o r d i d y o u
o ffe r h i m to c o m e w it h y o u ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I had said I have got my vehicle and if we can

20

g o i t j u s t m a d e lo g i s tic s e a s i e r y o u d o n o t h a v e t o f o l lo w. W e d o n o t
h a v e t o f o ll o w e a c h o t h e r a n d h e s a i d i f y o u d o h a v e a v e h ic le I w il l
ju m p in t h e c a r w it h y o u .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A lr ig h t a n d th e n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o h e h a d h is s e c u r i t y / e n to u r a g e w h ic h h e h a d
t o l e a v e b e h in d o b v i o u s l y.

Page 14 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V P I E T L O U W : D id h e g iv e t h e m a n y i n s tr u c t io n s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I a m n o t s u r e w h a t th e ir d is c u s s i o n w a s b u t

t h e y d id n o t c o m e a l o n g n o .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
that

o b v i o u s ly

was

A n d w e ll o b v i o u s ly w e ll t h e r e a s o n h e d o n e

because

we

were

going

somewhere

o th e r w i s e h e w o u l d h a v e fo ll o w e d u s w i t h h is – w i t h h i s t e a m .

p r iv a te
And I

a p p r e c ia t e d t h a t. S o w e j u m p e d in t o m y v e h ic le a n d w e m a d e o u r w a y
to the residence.
10

A D V P I E T L O U W : D id y o u s t o p a n y w h e r e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

W e s t o p p e d a t - t h e r e is a n E n g e n G a r a g e

w h ic h is j u s t a r o u n d t h e c o r n e r f r o m t h e H y a tt b e c a u s e I w a s l o w o n o n p e tr o l . S o t h a t t o o k a b i t o f t i m e a n d fr o m t h e r e w e c o n ti n u e d t o - to
t h e r e s i d e n c e a n d t h a t is w h e n w e h a d a r r iv e d a l m o s t s i m u l ta n e o u s ly
with Uncle Fana.

Wa lk e d i n t o t h e r e s i d e n c e , w e n t t o t h e lo u n g e .

We

s a t i n th e l o u n g e a n d t h a t is w h e n w e s t a r t e d t h e d i s c u s s i o n s .
O b v io u s ly p l e a s a n tr i e s w e r e e x c h a n g e d .

These are two

g e n tl e m e n t h a t h a v e k n o w n e a c h o t h e r f o r a v e r y l o n g t i m e a s t h e y
h a v e b o t h c o n fir m e d .
20

T h e y s h a r e d a fe w w a r s t o r ie s fr o m t h e ir M K

d a y s a n d t h a t i s w h e n I in tr o d u c e d t h e m e e ti n g a n d t h e r e a s o n w e t h e r e
for the meeting.
ADV PIET LOUW:

S o y o u r r o l e h a s b e e n d e s c r i b e d d i ffe r e n tl y.

S o m e t i m e s a s t h a t o f a m e d i a to r.

S o m e t i m e s a s t h a t o f a s p e c t a t o r.

S o m e t i m e s a s th a t …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O f a p o l ic e m a n .

Page 15 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V P I E T L O U W : A s m e r e l y a s s o m e b o d y w h o g o t p e o p l e to g e th e r …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Tr u e .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d t h e q u e s t io n w a s a s k e d a n d I th i n k l e g i t i m a te ly
s o . W h y n e e d y o u ? W h y w e r e y o u t h e r e a t a ll ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l - w e ll …
ADV PIET LOUW: Why …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e fo r e h e a n s w e r s . I m u s t ju s t s a y t h a t h e d e s c r i b e d
h is r o le in t h a t m e e ti n g a s a l m o s t a s p e c t a t o r o r - o r m e d i a t o r.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M e d i a to r.
10

A D V P I E T L O U W : Ye s . N o , n o c e r t a i n ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P I E T L O U W : M r C h a ir I h a v e n o q u a r r e l w i t h th a t b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : T h e q u e s ti o n - th e q u a l it a ti v e q u e s t io n t h a t f o l l o w e d
o n t h a t w a s w e ll w h y w e r e y o u n e e d e d a t a ll .
CHAIRPERSON: No, no …
A D V P I E T L O U W : W h y n o t le a v e ju s t t o t h e t w o o f t h e m t o s o r t i t o u t
o v e r th e p h o n e o r b y s o m e o t h e r m e e t i n g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

ADV PIET LOUW: And - and it is - it is (intervenes).
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m w it h t h a t . I t is ju s t t h a t
it - I g a in e d t h e i m p r e s s io n t h a t - th a t i t w a s a s i f i t is o t h e r p e o p le w h o
d e s c r ib e d h is r o l e a s ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV PIET LOUW:

No, no.

I - I t h o u g h t I m a d e t h e s t a te m e n t w id e

enough.

Page 16 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : I n fa c t i f o n e r e a d s h is o w n s t a te m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : H e u s e s t h e te r m m e d i a t o r t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o I a m a s k i n g n o w th e - th e w i tn e s s r e a l ly j u s t t o o
…
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine, ja.
A D V P I E T L O U W : To c la r i fy y o u r f u n c ti o n in t h a t m e e ti n g p le a s e .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . S o m y - m y f u n c ti o n in th e m e e t in g w a s
b e s i d e s p u ll in g t h e t w o p a r t ie s t o g e t h e r b e c a u s e t h a t is - t h a t is w h a t
r e s o l v i n g is s u e s i s a b o u t . G e t th e p e o p l e a r o u n d t h e t a b l e . T h a t w a s
m y o n e f u n c ti o n a n d t h e s e c o n d o n e a s p e r a g r e e m e n t t h a t m e e ti n g
c o u l d n e v e r h a v e h a p p e n e d b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f th e m w i t h o u t t h e p e r s o n
t h a t i s - h a d i n t r o d u c e d t h i s is s u e o f t h e b a c k g r o u n d r u m o u r s a n d t h a t
sort of thing.
S o i f y o u a r e r a i s i n g t h a t y o u n e e d t o b e p a r t o f th a t m e e t i n g .
Yo u n e e d to o w n t h a t - th a t r u m o u r m o n g e r i n g i d e a a n d y o u n e e d to
p r e s e n t i t y o u r s e l f b e c a u s e w h e n I a m a s k e d a n d I a m a l o n e in th a t

20

m e e ti n g it i s - i t i s a v e r y d i ffic u l t th in g t o d o b e c a u s e h e i s U n c l e Fa n a w o u l d b e a s k e d b u t w h o is s a y in g t h is . H e m i g h t m e n t io n
my name.
H e m ig h t n o t m e n ti o n m y n a m e . S o t h e id e a w a s th a t I b e in
t h e m e e t in g . I o w n t h e is s u e o f t h e m e e ti n g a n d I - I p r e s e n t i t a n d th a t
is e x a c t ly w h a t h a p p e n e d .

Page 17 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV PIET LOUW:

S o y o u h a d a n a c ti v e r o l e i n s o f a r a s t h a t is

c o n c e r n e d . I f I c o r r e c t ly u n d e r s t a n d M r Z u m a t e l l m e i f I m is c a te g o r i s e
w h a t y o u r f u n c ti o n w a s . Yo u w e r e a c t u a ll y t h e r e to e x p l a i n th e f a c t o f
t h e r u m o u r. N o t t h e - n o t t h e tr u t h o f it o f c o u r s e … .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : B u t th e fa c t o f t h e r u m o u r s o f b l a c k m a il . Yo u w e r e
t h e r e t o p r e s e n t e v id e n c e s o t o s p e a k .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Ja.
ADV PIET LOUW:
10

O f t h e fa c t th a t t h e r e a r e r u m o u r s l ik e t h a t .

O t h e r w is e t h e r e w o u l d s i m p l y b e a d e n ia l ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Correct.

I was - if I may say I was - I was

a c ti n g a s a w i t n e s s a s w e l l i n t h a t m e e t i n g b e c a u s e y o u k n o w I w a s
g o i n g to b e t e s t e d w h ic h I w a s to s a y o k a y y o u a r e r a is in g t h is . W h e r e
d i d y o u h e a r i t? W h y d i d y o u h e a r i t? W h o w a s s a y i n g i t ? W h a te v e r,
w h a t e v e r th a t th e q u e s t io n s w o u ld h a v e b e e n a t th a t t i m e a n d - a n d w h y
a r e y o u p u ll in g u s to g e th e r ?
W h y d id y o u n o t ju s t r a is e i t w i t h U n c l e F a n a ?
with me.

Yo u r a i s e i t

A ll t h o s e - a ll th o s e q u e s ti o n s w o u l d h a v e o b v i o u s l y b e e n

c a n v a s s e d i n - i n t h a t m e e t in g …
20

ADV PIET LOUW: Ja.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: And they were and I said look I am over here.
I c a n n o t j u s t s a y s o m e t h in g .

I h a v e h a d th e d is c u s s io n w i t h

U n c l e Fa n a . I c a n n o t n o t o w n t h is is s u e a n d t h a t is e x a c t ly w h y I w a s
t h e r e t o s a y I a m p r e s e n t in g it t o y o u a n d I - I w a s a t t h e r is k o f a
d e n ia l a n d t h a t is e x a c tl y w h a t h a p p e n e d .

Page 18 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o y o u d e n ie d …
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Ja of course.
ADV PIET LOUW: Mr Jonas denied?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s h e d i d .
A D V P I E T L O U W : H e d e n ie d - h e - h e d e n i e d t h e fa c t o f b l a c k m a il b u t
n o t t h e f a c t o f t h e r u m o u r. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : H e d e n ie d t h e f a c t o f b l a c k m a i l , y e s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : B u t n o t t h e f a c t th a t th e r e w a s a r u m o u r ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . N o , n o . I a m n o t s u r e i f h e w a s a w a r e o f
10

it o r n o t . I d o n o t k n o w b u t t h is is w h a t I h e a r d .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A lr ig h t a n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o t h e m e e t in g c o n ti n u e d . I t t o o k th e s h a p e i t
did.
ADV PIET LOUW: How long was the meeting?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S a y a p p r o x i m a t e ly 4 0 / 4 5 m i n u t e s .

I mean I

w i ll n e e d - I w il l n e e d t o - t o c h e c k th e ti m e .
A D V P I E T L O U W : J a . W e ll i t is a n a p p r o x i m a te .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W e ll l e t u s - l e t u s c a l l i t …
A D V P I E T L O U W : P l e a s e g iv e u s a n i d e a . Ye s .
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Let us call it, ja. 45 minutes.
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d - a n d th e n h o w d id it e n d ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I t e n d e d i n a s t a l e m a te o b v i o u s l y. Th e r e w a s
t h is a ll e g a t i o n th a t w a s p u t t o h i m th a t h e d e n i e d . T h e r e w a s a b a c k
a n d fo r t h b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f t h e m t h a t e n d e d u p th e w a y i t d i d b u t b y
t h e t i m e t h e m e e ti n g w a s d o n e . I t w a s a g r e e d t h a t lo o k th is m a t t e r w il l

Page 19 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
- w il l p ic k u p o n - o n a n o t h e r o c c a s io n b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s o b v i o u s ly
ti m e c o n s tr a i n ts fr o m - fr o m M r J o n a s w h o w a s tr a v e ll i n g to w h e r e v e r
h e w a s tr a v e l li n g .
T h e n a t th a t p o i n t I h a d w a l k e d M r J o n a s o u t t o - t o th e
a r r iv a l a r e a - t h e p a r k i n g lo t a n d I h a d a s k e d h i m w h e r e h e w a s g o i n g
t o a n d h e s a id l o o k h e i s n o t s u r e .

H e is e i t h e r g o i n g t o g o t o th e

G a u t r a in i n R o s e b a n k o r t o - t o th e a ir p o r t - t o th e a ir p o r t a n d I s a i d
lo o k h e r e is a d r i v e r.

H e w ill t a k e y o u w h e r e v e r y o u n e e d t o g o a n d

t h a t w a s - t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h a t o f - o f t h a t e v e n t f u l d a y.
10

A D V P I E T L O U W : A lr i g h t . S o h e t h e n le f t . N o w d u r in g t h e c o u r s e o f
t h e m e e t in g y o u r s t a t e m e n t s ta y s - a ff id a v it s a y s t h a t M r R a j e s h G u p t a
m a d e a n a p p e a r a n c e a n d t h e r e w a s a n in t e r a c ti o n w i t h h i m .

What

happened?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o i t w a s a n i n te r a c t io n t o t h e m e e t i n g w h i c h

w a s p u r e l y t o g e t m y a t t e n t i o n f o r c o n f ir m a ti o n f o r a m e e t in g w h ic h w a s
going to be over the next day or a few days.

So he peered into the

r o o m , g o t m y a t t e n ti o n a n d I h a d w a l k e d o u t o f t h e r o o m w h ils t t h e
c o n v e r s a ti o n c o n ti n u e d a n d t h e n I p o p p e d b a c k i n a n d t h a t w a s fo r a
s h o r t p e r io d . I t w a s n o t a lo n g p e r io d .
20

D V P I E T L O U W : Yo u e x p l a i n e d y o u r r e la t i o n s h i p w i th t h e - t h e - To n y M r To n y G u p t a - R a j e s h - y e s t e r d a y.

C o u ld I a s k y o u a t t h i s p o i n t t o

g iv e a q u ic k o v e r v i e w o f t h e t h r e e b r o t h e r s w h o s e n a m e s h a v e b e e n
m e n ti o n e d ? Aj a y, A t u l a n d R a je s h . J u s t a g e w i s e a n d w h e r e w e r e t h e
o th e r tw o b r o t h e r s t h a t d a y.

W e r e t h e y a t h o m e o r w e r e th e y

e ls e w h e r e ? W h a t - w h a t i s y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n ?

Page 20 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

O k a y.

M r A j a y o b v i o u s l y w il l b e th e e l d e s t

b r o t h e r. M r A t u l is t h e m i d d l e b r o th e r. A g e w i s e I a m n o t t o o s u r e . L e t
m e a p p r o x i m a t e i t a s w e l l . L e t u s p u t M r A ja y a t la t e 5 0 s a n d M r A t u l in
h is m i d - 5 0 s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e r a is e y o u r v o i c e M r Zu m a .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M r A ja y i n h i s l a t e 5 0 s . M r A t u l i n h is m i d - 5 0 s
a n d M r To n y i n h is la t e 4 0 s .
10

A D V P I E T L O U W : Is i t p o s s i b le to s a y w h o t h e - w h o t h e - n o t - I d o
n o t t h i n k o n e s h o u l d c a l l i t a p a tr i a r c h b u t w h o is m a i n o u t s i d e fa c e o f
t h e f a m ily a t t h a t t i m e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : B y o u ts i d e fa c e y o u …
ADV PIET LOUW:

Ye s .

T h e - th e p e r s o n w h o m a k e s r e p r e s e n ta t io n s

…
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : R e p r e s e n t a ti o n s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d d e c is i o n s a n d s o f o r t h .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o t h a t is - t h a t is - i n my v i e w i t w o u l d Mr A t u l
w h ic h i s t h e m i d d l e b r o t h e r b e c a u s e h e w a s t h e C h a ir m a n o f t h e g r o u p .
20

ADV PIET LOUW: And …
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A n d s o r r y - a n d t h e n o n - o n th a t d a y i f I -

b e c a u s e w h e n w e h a v e m e e t in g s a t t h e h o u s e th e r e is g e n e r a l ly n o b o d y
e ls e .

N o b o d y e l s e m e a n i n g th e b r o t h e r s w o u l d a ls o g o - t h e o t h e r

b r o t h e r s - tw o b r o th e r s w o u l d b e e i t h e r tr a v e l li n g o r a t th e o ffi c e
b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e q u it e s tr ic tl y o ff ic e b o u n d .

Page 21 of 163

S o fo r t h e m n o t t o b e

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t h e r e i s n o t a n a n o m a ly h e r e .
ADV PIET LOUW:

N o w Mr A ja y G u p t a d o y o u - d o y o u h a v e a n y id e a

w h e r e h e w a s th a t d a y ? W a s h e a r o u n d o r n o t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I a m n o t s u r e w h e r e h e w o u l d h a v e b e e n th a t

d a y. I r e a d h is t e s ti m o n y b u t f r o m m y r e c o l le c t i o n a t th a t ti m e I d i d n o t
s e e h i m in t h e h o u s e h o l d a t a n y p o i n t .
A D V P I E T L O U W : H e s t a t e s u n d e r o a t h th a t h e w a s a t t h e o ff ic e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e n it is p r o b a b l y w h e r e h e w a s s ir.
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d M r A t u l G u p ta ?
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

O n c e a g a in h e w a s n o t a t t h e h o u s e a t t h a t

p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t i n ti m e a n d I h a v e r e a d t h e - t h e d o c u m e n t s i n fr o n t o f
m e a n d a s t h e d o c u m e n ts s t a t e h e w a s i n th e c o u n tr y a t t h a t t i m e . S o
h e w a s tr a v e l li n g .
A D V P I E T L O U W : R ig h t . N o w M r J o n a s h a d n o w le f t a f te r th e m e e t in g
w i t h a v e h ic le t h a t y o u o r g a n is e d - o n e o f t h e G u p ta v e h ic l e s t h a t y o u
o r g a n i s e d a d r i v e r f o r h i m to t a k e h i m e i t h e r t o t h e a i r p o r t o r t h e
G a u t r a in w h a t e v e r t h e c a s e m i g h t b e . D i d y o u h a v e a n y th i n g fu r t h e r to
d o w i t h h i m ? D i d y o u m e e t h i m a g a i n - s e e h i m a g a in ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

S o b e f o r e h e le f t t h e h o u s e a f te r th e m e e t in g

w e h a d a g r e e d t h a t w e w o u l d h a v e a f o ll o w u p i n t h e fo ll o w i n g w e e k t h e M o n d a y o r Tu e s d a y o r s o a n d t h a t n e v e r h a p p e n e d . T h e r e w a s o n e
o r t w o S M S e x c h a n g e s a n d t h e n it j u s t q u ie t e n e d d o w n a n d t h a t is t h e
la s t b i t o f c o m m u n i c a t io n th a t w e h a d h a d p o s t t h e m e e t in g .
A D V P I E T L O U W : D id y o u s e e h i m a g a i n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . I - I d i d s e e h i m a g a i n . L ik e I s a i d I t h i n k

Page 22 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t w ic e .

Once was at the same Hyatt Hotel.

H e w a s s t a n d in g o u ts id e

w a i ti n g f o r w h o e v e r o r w h a t e v e r o n h is p h o n e a n d I h a d s e e n h i m . L i k e
h e y M r J o n a s h o w a r e y o u s ir a n d t h is w a s p o s t o b v i o u s l y n o w t h e - t h e
n e w s s to r i e s h a d b r o k e n . H e h a d p u t o u t a s t a te m e n t . H e m a d e t h e s e
a l le g a ti o n s a n d I w e n t t o g r e e t h i m to c h e c k h o w h e w a s d o i n g .
H e l o o k e d o k a y.

Gave him a big handshake and a hug and

k e p t m o v in g a n d t h e n t h e n e x t t i m e I h a d s e e n h i m a f te r th a t w a s I m a y
b e m is t a k e n . I t w a s e i t h e r th e S t a t e o f th e N a ti o n A d d r e s s o r o p e n i n g
o f p a r l i a m e n t . O n e o f t h e tw o . I d o n o t k n o w.
10

A D V P I E T L O U W : B u t y o u s a w h i m i n C a p e To w n ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s .

I n C a p e To w n .

I t w a s a f te r th e e v e n t

w h e n e v e r y o n e w a s w a lk in g o u t o f t h e v e n u e a n d w e a c tu a lly e n d e d u p
b u m p i n g i n t o e a c h o th e r.

W e w e r e w a lk i n g d o w n t h e s t a i r s to g e th e r

a n d t h a t is w h e n I g r e e t e d h i m a n d h e g r e e t e d b a c k a n d w e c o n t in u e d
o n o u r p a t h s s ir.
A D V P I E T L O U W : A lr ig h t . N o w a g a in s t t h a t b a c k g r o u n d I a m g o i n g t o
a s k y o u s o m e p o i n te d q u e s ti o n s a b o u t i s s u e s th a t c a m e d u r in g o u r
le a r n e d c o ll e a g u e ’s e x a m i n a t i o n o f y o u y e s t e r d a y. I n t h e fir s t p l a c e t h e
- t h e r e a r e t h r e e p o i n ts I t h in k t h a t h a v e t o d o w i t h - w i th t h e m e d ia …
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o r r y. W i th t h e ?
ADV PIET LOUW: With the media.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y.
A D V P I E T L O U W : T h e fir s t - c a n I a s k y o u n o w t o g o t o th e fi r s t fi le o f
t h e s e t w o . I t h in k i t is F il e A . J u s t c a ll it Fi l e A - L L 1 …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA: A.

Page 23 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV PIET LOUW: LL …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA: LL1A.
ADV PIET LOUW:

LL1A at page 23.

q u e s t io n s a b o u t - a b o u t t h is .

Yo u w e r e a s k e d a n u m b e r o f

W e - y o u w i ll r e c a l l t h a t t h is is a - a

s t a te m e n t t h a t c a m e o u t b y O a k b a y a n d i t i s d a te d 1 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . I t i s
lo o k s a m e d i a …
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No.
A D V P I E T L O U W : A m e d ia s t a te m e n t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o . T h i s is ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. W e ll i s t h a t o n e a b o u t w h ic h h e h a d - w e h a d
p r o b le m s y e s t e r d a y.
ADV PIET LOUW: LL1 - LL1A.
CHAIRPERSON: A.
ADV PIET LOUW: Page 23.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is t h a t n o t th e p a g e t h a t - d i d n o t h a v e a s t a te m e n t

fr o m m y s i d e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is th e o n e C h a ir.
A D V P I E T L O U W : O h y e s . O h y e s . I - I d o r e c a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , b u t i t is …
20

A D V P I E T L O U W : I d o r e c a ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is fi n e . Yo u c a n c o n t in u e .
A D V P I E T L O U W : M r C h a ir h a v e y o u s e e n th e s t a te m e n t ?
CHAIRPERSON: No. I have seen it, yes.
ADV PIET LOUW: Good.
CHAIRPERSON: I have seen it.

Page 24 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV PIET LOUW: I think the witness …
C H A I R P E R S O N : H a s g o t i t.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Yo u g a v e h i m i t y e s te r d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V P I E T L O U W : E x c e ll e n t . S o n o w e v e r y b o d y h a s o n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW:

T h e - ju s t t o g e t t h e r e c o r d s tr a i g h t a g a i n o n

1 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 O a k b a y - o h i t w o u ld a p p e a r - i t i s O a k b a y In v e s t m e n t s
if y o u l o o k a t th e fo o t o f t h e p a g e .
10

S t a te m e n t i s s u e d b y O a k b a y -

Oakbay Investments on 13 March 2016.

Yo u w e r e a s k e d w h e t h e r a t

t h a t ti m e y o u w e r e a d ir e c to r o f O a k b a y. C a n y o u r e c a l l?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I w il l h a v e to c h e c k . I c a n n o t r e c a ll b u t …
ADV PIET LOUW: Were you …?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : C h a n c e s a r e I w a s s ir.
A D V P I E T L O U W : W e r e y o u a s k e d a b o u t t h is s t a t e m e n t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : As k e d b y w h o s ir ?
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n y b o d y i n th e G u p t a f a m ily ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No, no.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Th e p e r s o n w h o m a d e t h e s t a t e m e n t ?
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No. I was not asked.
ADV PIET LOUW:

Now it would appear that this statement was in

r e s p o n s e t o a n a r tic l e o n t h e s a m e d a y t h a t w a s p u b l is h e d i n th e
S u n d a y Ti m e s .

J u s t t o o p e r h a p s g iv e y o u a b r o a d o v e r v i e w a n d a s k

y o u w h e t h e r y o u h a v e a n y k n o w le d g e o f th e s e d a t e s .

Th e s e d a t e s

c o m e f r o m t h e s ta t e m e n t o f M r J o n a s a n d t h e y w o u l d s e e m t o b e q u i te

Page 25 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
correct.
N a m e ly th a t t h e r e w a s a Fi n a n c i a l Ti m e s L o n d o n r e p o r t o n
8 March 2016. Did you see that report?

Do you know anything about

it ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I - I k n o w a b o u t i t . I d id n o t - I d i d n o t f o l lo w
u p o n i t a t t h a t ti m e , n o .
ADV PIET LOUW:

And

th e n

th e r e

was

a

News24

report

on

1 0 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 . D i d y o u s e e t h a t?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I …
10

ADV PIET LOUW: Can you recall it?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I t h in k I d i d - I d id - I d id s e e th a t o n e .
ADV PIET LOUW:

W e a r e g o i n g t o g o to th a t i n a m o m e n t a n d t h e n

t h e r e a s th e S u n d a y Ti m e s r e p o r t o f 1 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 a n d t h e n c a m e t h e
Oakbay statement.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . I - I d i d s e e t h a t o n e .
ADV PIET LOUW:

N o w w e h a v e b e e n a b l e t o f in d a - t h e - t h e

s t a te m e n t t h a t w a s p u b li c - th e m a y - n o t s t a te m e n t . I a p o lo g is e . Th e
r e p o r t t h a t w a s m a d e i n t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s . A n a r t ic l e t h a t w a s w r i t t e n
about this on 13 March 2016.
20

M r C h a ir m a n I w o n d e r c o u l d I p e r h a p s

a s k t o h a n d t h is t o y o u . I t - i t p r o v i d e s a l o t o f c o n t e x t a n d …
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

I t h i n k t h a t i s f in e .

L e t u s - le t u s p r o b a b ly i t

should not be a problem.
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d th e r e i s o n e f o r th e w i t n e s s a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l h a v e to …
ADV PIET LOUW: I thought …

Page 26 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l h a v e to m a k e i t - p u t i n a s a …
A D V P I E T L O U W : I p u t a t t h e r ig h t to p in p e n c il L L 1 2 3 A b e c a u s e i t s i t s
s n u g g li n g …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. Well maybe …
A D V P I E T L O U W : B e h in d t h e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e l e t u s j u s t m a k e is a s e p a r a te e x h ib i t o n i ts

o w n - a s h is e x h i b it .
ADV PIET LOUW: Fine.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S o th is w a s L L . M r M o k o e n a w ill b e h e a r in g m e .
10

H e m i g h t b e a b l e t o s u g g e s t. I t s h o u ld b e L L …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A : Ex h ib i t Tw o .
CHAIRPERSON: LL2.
ADV PIET LOUW: Ja, but …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA: LL …
ADV PIET LOUW: We have got an LL2.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh we have got LL2.
ADV PIET LOUW:

If I a m n o t m is ta k e n .

W e h a v e g o t L L 1 w h ic h

c o n s i s t o f tw o b u n d l e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
20

ADV PIET LOUW: A and B.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d th e n L L 2 .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P I E T L O U W : W h ic h is t h e s m a l l b u n d le t h e C B u n d le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . S o it s h o u l d b e L L 3 .

Page 27 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o t h i s w il l b e L L 3 .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA: LL8.
A D V P I E T L O U W : E i g h t?
UNKNOWN PERSON: We have up to LL7.
ADV PIET LOUW:

Oh.

I see.

S o th e n u m b e r s h a v e g o n e o n .

So it

must be LL8. LL8.
C H A I R P E R S O N : L L 8 . T h is i s o n e a r t ic l e ?
A D V P I E T L O U W : I t i s o n e a r t ic l e .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

I t i s o n e a r t ic l e .

O k a y.

T h e - a n d i t i s t h e a r t ic l e

fr o m t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s ? W h e r e is i t fr o m ?
A D V P I E T L O U W : Yo u c a n s e e a t t h e f o o t o n th e fir s t p a g e Ti m e s L iv e
S u n d a y Ti m e s .

T h e d a t e i s g iv e n 1 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 a n d th e a r ti c l e i s

h e a d e d “ H o w G u p ta s S h o p p e d f o r N e w M in is te r ” .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

S o t h is w ill b e - t h is a r t ic l e - S u n d a y Ti m e s

a r ti c l e o f 1 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 w i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T L L 8 .
ADV PIET LOUW:

C h a ir w i t h - w it h y o u r l e a v e n o t 1 8 M a r c h b u t

13 March.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Is i t 1 3 M a r c h ?
ADV PIET LOUW: 1-3.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Oh.

No I thought I said the 13th but let me

( in t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V P I E T L O U W : I t h o u g h t I h e a r d 1 8 . I a p o lo g i s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e 1 3 t h ja . N o . I s a i d - I t h in k I s a id t h e 1 3 t h , j a .
ADV PIET LOUW: Oh, good.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.

Page 28 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV PIET LOUW: Mr Zuma …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : D o y o u s e e t h a t? I - I j u s t w a n t t o t a k e y o u t o a f e w
p o i n t s i n th is d o c u m e n t .

N o w b e f o r e I d o s o c o u l d I j u s t r e m in d y o u

q u e s t io n s t h a t w e r e p u t t o y o u y e s t e r d a y a b o u t t h e O a k b a y s t a t e m e n t
o f 1 3 M a r c h a n d t h e - th e m a i n is s u e w a s i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e p a g e i t
w a s p o in t e d o u t t o y o u t h a t t h e r e w a s a s t a t e m e n t to t h e fo ll o w i n g - i n
t h e f o l lo w i n g w o r d s :
“ To b e c l e a r : t h e r e w a s n o m e e ti n g a t a l l. ”
10

Do you see that?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . I s e e .
A D V P I E T L O U W : Yo u - y o u r e c a ll th a t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I r e c a ll t h a t s ir.
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d t h e q u e s ti o n q u i t e f a ir l y w a s p u t t o y o u .

W e ll

w h a t a b o u t y o u r m e e ti n g ? T h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g . Wa s t h e r e n o t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s s ir.
A D V P I E T L O U W : N o w t h e q u e s t io n o f c o u r s e i s o n e o f c o n t e x t . T h e
m e e ti n g t h a t w a s d e a l t w i t h i n - in t h i s s t a t e m e n t th a t w a s is s u e d b y
O a k b a y o b v io u s ly d e a l t w i t h t h e m e e ti n g t h a t w a s r e p o r te d a b o u t i n t h e
20

S u n d a y Ti m e s a r tic le . T h a t I a m g o in g to t a k e y o u t o n o w i n a m o m e n t
w h ic h o n y o u r v e r s io n i s a fi c ti o n . I t n e v e r h a p p e n e d .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W it h th e i n c l u s i o n o f t h e b r o th e r s ?
A D V P I E T L O U W : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : J a . Th a t d i d n o t h a p p e n .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A lr ig h t . S o i f I c a n q u i c k ly t a k e y o u to t h e r e p o r t o r

Page 29 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t h e a r t ic l e t h a t w a s p u b l is h e d i n th e S u n d a y Ti m e s .

I t s ta r t s o ff w i t h

the news that:
“ P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Zu m a ’s s o n D u d u z a n e w a s p r e s e n t
w h e n m e m b e r s o f t h e G u p ta fa m i ly o ff e r e d D e p u ty
M i n is t e r

Mr Jonas

th e n

F in a n c e

M i n i s te r

N h l a n h la N e n e ’s j o b th e S u n d a y Ti m e s c a n r e v e a l .
J o n a s is s a i d to h a v e b e e n o ffe r e d t h e Fi n a n c e
M i n is tr y tw ic e .

F ir s t b y t h e G u p ta s a t a S a n d t o n

H o t e l o n N o v e m b e r, t h e 2 7 t h l a s t y e a r. ”
10

Now that would have been 2014.

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

a p o lo g i s e . T h e a r t ic l e w a s w r i t te n i n 2 0 1 6 .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: 2015.
ADV PIET LOUW: So that was 2015.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P I E T L O U W : O f c o u r s e . A p o lo g is e .
“ T h e - t h e L o n d o n b a s e d F i n a n c ia l Ti m e s r e p o r t e d
t h is w e e k t h a t t h e G u p t a s c l o s e fr i e n d s - fr i e n d s o f
Z u m a m e t J o n a s ju s t b e f o r e N e n e w a s fir e d t o t e l l
h i m t h e y w a n t e d h i m t o b e t h e n e x t p o li ti c a l h e a d o f
20

t h e N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y. T h e G u p t a s s a id t h r o u g h a n
a tt o r n e y

yesterday

there

have

been

an

e x tr a o r d in a r y n u m b e r o f a l l e g a ti o n s a r o u n d t h e
G u p t a fa m i ly i n r e c e n t w e e k s .

S e v e r a l o f w h ic h

h a v e i n v o l v e d t h e fi n a n c e - Fi n a n c e Mi n is t r y. A s w e
h a v e s a id c o u n tl e s s t i m e s o u r p r i m a r y f o c u s is o n

Page 30 of 163

Sorry I

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
b u s i n e s s n o t p o li ti c s . To b e a b s o l u t e ly c l e a r th e r e
w a s n o m e e ti n g a t a ll . L e t a lo n e a n y i n f e r e n c e s o r
c a s h o ffe r s … ”
Yo u s e e t h a t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . I s e e t h a t.
A D V P I E T L O U W : I t th e n g o e s o n .
“ … b u t t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s h a s e s t a b l is h e d t h a t th e
m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e a t a b o u t 0 3 :0 0 p m a t a S a n d t o n
H o t e l t h e l a s t Fr i d a y o f N o v e m b e r. ”
10

Right and it goes on across the page.
“ A c c o r d i n g ly - s o r r y.

Ac c o r d in g t o h i g h ly p l a c e d

s o u r c e s a t th e Tr e a s u r y t h e m e e ti n g w a s a r r a n g e d
b y a f ix e r d e s c r i b e d a s a c o n tr o v e r s i a l b u s i n e s s
p e r s o n a n d p o li ti c a l f ig u r e i n G a u t e n g .
t w o w e e k s b e fo r e Z u m a a x e d N e n e .

This was

Jonas turned

the Guptas down.”
Right. It goes on and it says:
“ N u m e r o u s a t te m p t s t o g e t c o m m e n t fr o m J o n a s
w e r e u n s u c c e s s f u l y e s te r d a y. ”
20

Then

it

deals

w it h

what

a

Pr e s i d e n c y

spokesperson

B o n g a n i M a j o l a s a i d . I t i s r e p o r te d t h a t h e s a i d :
“ O n ly t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s th e a u th o r i ty t o a p p o i n t
M i n is t e r s a n d D e p u ty M i n i s t e r s . ”
A n d t h e n t h e r e is a q u o t a t io n .
“ I t i s th e r e fo r e t o ta ll y u n a c c e p ta b le t h a t a n y o n e

Page 31 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
w o u ld

seek

to

abrogate

that

r e s p o n s ib il it y

to

t h e m s e l v e s . S u c h a l le g e d a c ti o n s h a v e - k n o w t h a t
the

knowledge

s a n c ti o n

w i ll

support

of

th e

President.”
It goes on.
“ Tr e a s u r y

spokeswoman,

Phumza Macanda,

d e c l in e d t o c o m m e n t . ”
I t g o e s o n t h e n fu r t h e r a n d th is is w h e r e i t b e c o m e s
i m p o r t a n t.
“ S e v e r a lly - s e v e r a l h i g h l y p l a c e d s o u r c e s in t h e

10

Tr e a s u r y a n d th e A N C A ll ia n c e c o n fir m e d t o t h e
Sunday

Ti m e s

that

Jonas

met

with

Ajay

and

A t u l G u p ta a n d th e P r e s i d e n t ’s s o n D u d u z a n e is a
business …”
T h e r e is a v e r b m is s i n g I t h i n k .
“ … i s a b u s i n e s s p a r t n e r o f t h e G u p ta b r o t h e r s i n a
n u m b e r o f r e g is t e r e d c o m p a n i e s . T h is - ”
“He” must be a reference to you.
“ H e r e s p o n d e d t o a w r i t te n q u e s ti o n - s o r r y.

He

r e s p o n d e d t o w r i t t e n q u e s t i o n s in a n e m a il . T h e r e

20

w a s n o s u c h m e e t in g a t a l l . A s s u c h y o u r q u e s t io n s
a r e ir r e l e v a n t . ”
N o w a s s u m i n g f o r t h e m o m e n t t h a t r e fe r e n c e o f “ h e ” is t o
y o u . D o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o l le c ti o n o f h a v i n g s e n t a n e m a il a t t h a t p o in t
or not?

Page 32 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W e ll m o s t d e f in i te ly n o t .
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o t h a t “ h e ” c a n n o t b e a r e fe r e n c e t o y o u . I t m u s t
b e s o m e b o d y e ls e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is s o m e b o d y e ls e , y e s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d th e n i t g o e s o n .
“ O f c o u r s e t h e y d o t h is to p r o v e th o s e t h in g s - s o r r y
- t h o s e t h e y c a ll th a t “ w h e t h e r y o u l ik e i t o r n o t w e
are in charge””.
A n d t h e r e i s a - it s e e ms t o m e a - s o m e t h i n g m is s i n g in th e
10

text but it goes on.
“ I n t h e m e e t i n g J o n a s w a s t o ld t h a t t h e jo b w a s h i s
if h e w a n t e d i t b u t c o u l d c o m e w i t h c o n d it io n s - b u t
w o u ld c o m e w i t h c o n d it i o n s . H e w o u l d h a v e to p u s h
for

the

program

approval
and

clear

of

the

nuclear

certain

men

procurement
from

th e

top

e c h e l o n s o f th e Tr e a s u r y. ”
And it goes on.
“ H e w a s g iv e n a li s t o f p e o p le to g e t r id o f i n c lu d i n g
D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a ls ,
20

Is m a il M o m o n ia t ,
K e n n e t h Br o w n .

G e n e r a l L u n g is a ,
A n d r e w D o n a ld s o n

and

T h e f o u r w h o h a v e b e e n w i th t h e

Tr e a s u r y f o r m o r e t h a n 2 2 y e a r s a r e a m o n g t h e
fi e r c e s t c r i ti c s o f t h e n u c l e a r p r o c u r e m e n t p r o g r a m
w h ic h th e y b e l ie v e w o u ld b a n k r u p t S o u th A fr i c a . ”
A n d t h e n i t g o e s o n in a s i m i l a r v e i n . A c r o s s t h e p a g e .

Page 33 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
“ I t c a n n o t b e th a t w e h a v e a s t a te t h a t is r u n b y a
f a m ily o r a g r o u p i n g o f p e o p le a p a r t fr o m i ts
s e l e c t e d r e p r e s e n ta t iv e s . ”
I th in k t h a t is a c t u a ll y a q u o t a t i o n m a r k t h a t is w r i tt e n o u t .
“ … a n d th e n f ir in g th e m s o u r c e s s a i d w o u l d h a v e
a l lo w e d t h e f a mi ly to c a p tu r e th e Tr e a s u r y a s fu ll
v a c a n c ie s w o u ld h a v e b e e n f il le d b y b u r e a u c r a t s
approved by the Guptas.”
T h e n it g o e s o n a b o u t t h e n u c l e a r p r o g r a m S h iv a U r a n i u m
10

a n d s o fo r t h a n d a t t h e f o o t o f t h a t:
“J o n a s

is

believed

General Gwede Mantashe

to

have
and

many

called
report

ANC
the

G u p t a m e e ti n g . A f t e r t h e m e e ti n g J o n a s a c c o r d i n g
t o t h e s o u r c e a ls o c a ll e d D u d u z a n e t o t e l l h i m t o
s t o p w h a t h e is d o i n g . ”
Wa s t h e r e e v e r s u c h a p h o n e c a l l …
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No. There was not.
A D V P I E T L O U W : O r a n y o th e r c o m m u n ic a ti o n o f a n y s o r t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Nope. There was not.
20

ADV PIET LOUW: It goes across the page.
“ I t is q u i te c l e a r t h a t th e G u p t a s i n fl u e n c e c a n n o t
b e u n d e r s ta t e d .

T h a t is w h a t w e n e e d t o s to p .

M a n ta s h e d e n i e d r e c e iv in g a c a l l fr o m J o n a s a n d
r e fe r r e d t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s t o th e D e p u t y M i n i s te r
a n d th e n i n a n e n ig m a t ic - i n a n e n i g m a ti c w a y h e

Page 34 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s a i d p h o n e M c e b is i a n d a s k h i m b e c a u s e h e i s
a l iv e .

H e is n o t a n a n c e s t o r.

H e is c a p a b l e o f

speaking for himself.”
A n d th e n i m p o r t a n t ly t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h r e a d s a s f o ll o w s .
P l e a s e lis t e n c a r e f u l ly.
“ N e n e to l d … ”
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll - I a m - I a m s o r r y.

What would have come

a c r o s s a s M c e b is i w a s M s e b e n z i .
A D V P I E T L O U W : M c e b is i . I a p o lo g is e C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . M c e b is i is M r J o n a s ’ n a m e .
A D V P I E T L O U W : N o , n o . C e r t a i n l y, y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms e b e n z i m i g h t b e s o m e b o d y e l s e .
ADV PIET LOUW:

I a m - I a m g o i n g to r e c e i v e le s s o n s a f t e r w a r d s

a b o u t c l ic k s . T h e n t h e n e x t p a r a g r a p h s is o f i m p o r ta n c e M r Zu m a .
“ N e n e t o l d t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s t h a t h e k n e w n o t h in g
about

th e

m e e ti n g

and

did

not

recall

any

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h J o n a s a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g w i t h th e
G u p t a fa m i ly. ”
S e e t h a t?
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . I s e e t h a t.
ADV PIET LOUW:

T h a t o f c o u r s e f r o m o th e r s o u r c e s a p p e a r s t o b e

c o n tr a d ic te d a t t h i s p o i n t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s s ir.
A D V P I E T L O U W : I t th e n g o e s o n .
“ A f t e r J o n a s t u r n e d d o w n th e o ff e r s t o r e p l a c e N e n e

Page 35 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
D a v i d Va n R o o y e n w a s a p p o in t e d F in a n c e M in is t e r.
T h e m a r k e t s r e a c t e d w i th s h o c k . ”
A n d it t h e n g o e s i n t o t h e w h o l e N e n e g a te t h i n g a n d t h e
r e p l a c e m e n t w i th M r G o r d h a n a n d i t r e a ll y t h e n g o e s o n a b o u t o t h e r
p o li t ic a l fa ll o u t is s u e s fr o m - fr o m t h i s r e p o r t . N o w w a s t h i s - I t a k e i t t h is w a s th e r e p o r t t o w h i c h t h e O a k b a y s t a te m e n t r e s p o n d e d ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m n o t - I a m n o t s u r e b u t i t - i t s e e ms l ik e
that.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Th e ti m e s …
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: (Intervenes).
A D V P I E T L O U W : W o r k o u t in t h a t s e q u e n c e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW:

A lr ig h t .

Th e n i m p o r t a n tly s ti ll o n t h is t o p i c o f - o f

s t a te m e n ts a n d s o f o r th . I f I c o u l d a s k y o u j u s t a b o u t s o m e t h i n g t h a t
y o u t e s ti f ie d a b o u t t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r y e s t e r d a y a n d y o u e x p r e s s e d
s o m e c o n c e r n w i t h th e w a y th a t t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r d e a lt w it h t h e
in v e s t i g a t io n a n d y o u r r o le a n d f u n c ti o n i n t h a t w h o le in v e s t i g a t io n .
P e r h a p s y o u c a n j u s t e x p l a in t o t h e C h a ir w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d
a n d w h a t w a s i t t h a t m a d e y o u c o n c e r n - r a is e d y o u r c o n c e r n s
20

c o n c e r n i n g t h e - t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r ’s i n v e s ti g a ti o n .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

O k a y.

I t h i n k th e r e a s o n w e a ll s i t ti n g h e r e

t o d a y a t t h e S t a te C a p tu r e C o m m i s s i o n is b a s e d o n t h e fi n d i n g s o f t h e
P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r R e p o r t .

T h e v a r i o u s r o le p la y e r s t h a t h a v e h a d t o

c o m e a n d t e s ti f y. I m e a n th a t is n o t w h a t I a m g e t t in g i n to b u t s o m e o f
u s h a v e b e e n in t e g r a l t o t h o s e i n v e s t ig a ti o n s .

Page 36 of 163

We have sat here

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
a l le g e d o f a ll s o r ts o f w r o n g d o in g , c o r r u p t i o n , b r i b e r y.
Yo u k n o w i t h a s b e e n g o i n g o n a l m o s t o n a d a ily b a s is fr o m
a b o u t t h r e e y e a r s a g o . S o w h a t I w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d w a s a - a f a ir
o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e p r e s e n t o r r e fl e c t o n m y s i d e o f th e s to r y lik e I a m
d o i n g h e r e y e s t e r d a y a n d t o d a y.

I d i d n o t g e t t h a t o p p o r tu n it y.

Wa s

c o m m u n ic a ti o n s e n t to m e ? Ye s . I t w a s .
ADV PIET LOUW:

S o r r y.

C a n I ju s t a s k y o u ?

Perhaps just point at

q u e s t io n s . W e r e y o u i n v i t e d t o th e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
10

Th is w a s t o w a r d s th e ta il e n d .

Fr o m a t i m e

fr a m e p e r s p e c ti v e t o w a r d s t h e ta il e n d . Ti m e w is e I - I - b u t b e fo r e t h e
t a il e n d m e a n i n g b e f o r e t h e r e p o r t w a s f i n a l is e d . I w a s tr a v e l li n g a t t h e
ti m e . I h a d r e c e iv e d a p h o n e c a l l . I f o r g e t t h e - t h e l a d y ’s n a m e t h a t
c a l l e d a n d s h e s a i d s h e is fr o m t h e P u b l i c Pr o te c to r ’s O ff ic e a n d s h e
w a s c h e c k in g if I h a d r e c e iv e d c o m m u n i c a t io n a n d I s a i d I w i ll c h e c k m y
- m y e m a il s a n d s h e t e l e p h o n ic a lly s a id n o c h e c k i t .
W e a r e i n v i t in g y o u j u s t to c o m e a n d s i t a n d h a v e a
d is c u s s io n a n d i n t e r v ie w a n d j u s t t o g e t t o y o u r s i d e o f th e s t o r y a n d

20

t h e - a n d t h e v e r s i o n o f e v e n ts a n d I s a i d c o o l .

I w i ll c h e c k th a t .

C h e c k e d t h e e m a il a n d i n d e e d th e r e w a s a n e m a il .

F o ll o w i n g u p a n d

t h is w a s a v e r y s h o r t p e r i o d a f te r t h e p h o n e c a ll a n d th e e m a il .

I

received a summons or …
ADV PIET LOUW: Subpoena.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A s u b p o e n a o f s o m e s o r t t o a p p e a r u r g e n tly

a n d t h e d is c u s s i o n th a t I h a d h a d w i t h t h e - t h e r e p r e s e n ta t iv e fr o m t h e
P u b l ic P r o te c t o r ’s O ff ic e s - I a m n o t in t h e c o u n tr y c u r r e n t ly.

Page 37 of 163

I am

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
c o n d u c t in g b u s i n e s s . I a m n o t l iv in g i n S o u t h A f r ic a a n y l o n g e r a t t h a t
ti m e . S o I w il l n e e d t i m e a n d w h e n I g e t b a c k I w i ll l o o k y o u u p a n d I
w i ll c o m e a n d - a n d p r e s e n t m y s e l f .
S o t h a t w a s t h e - t h e v e r s io n - t h e s e q u e n c e o f e v e n t s a n d
b e f o r e I c o u ld e v e n m a k e t h o s e d e c is i o n s th e r e w a s a - a f in a lis e d
r e p o r t th a t h a d c o m e o u t . N o w t h e r e a s o n I h a d r a is e d it y e s t e r d a y is
o b v i o u s l y I a m s it t in g h e r e t o d a y. I h a v e b e e n m e n ti o n e d i n a l l s o r ts o f
li g h ts . I - I d i d n o t h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o - to g iv e m y - m y v e r s i o n o f
e v e n t s a n d t h e b a s i s o f t h a t r e p o r t is w h a t t h is w h o l e S t a t e C a p t u r e
10

C o m m i s s i o n is a b o u t.
I a m s i t ti n g h e r e h a v in g to a n s w e r a l l s o r ts o f a l le g a ti o n s t h a t
could have been answered that that point.
ADV PIET LOUW:

D i d y o u – t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r m a k e a v a il a b l e , to

y o u t h e v e r s io n s o f o t h e r p e r s o n s s u c h a s M r J o n a s p e r h a p s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

N o I . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

F o r y o u t o r e s p o n d to i t ?

M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

I d i d n o t r e c e iv e a n y n o t ic e s , I d id n ’ t r e c e iv e

a n y tr a n s c r ip ts t h a t w a s – e v e r y t h i n g I’ v e s e e n h a s b e e n p o s t t h e
fi n a l is i n g o f t h e r e p o r t .
20

A D V P I E T L O U W : G o o d n o w if I c o u l d p e r h a p s t h e n a s k y o u o n e o r t w o
r a th e r s m a l l q u e s ti o n s a b o u t q u e s ti o n s th a t w e r e p u t to y o u y e s t e r d a y
t o c o n c l u d e ? Th e fi r s t o n e c o n c e r n s a n i n v i ta t io n b y th e C h a ir t o y o u t o
s p e c u l a te a b o u t w h a t t h e r e a s o n s w o u l d h a v e b e e n w h y Mr J o n a s
r a i s e d t h e h u m a n c r y a ft e r t h e m e e ti n g w i th M e s s r s . N e n e a n d
Gordhan.

I’ m n o t g o i n g t o a s k y o u a b o u t t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h o s e

Page 38 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
d is c u s s io n s t h a t ’s b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n a n d w e ’ll d e a l w i th t h a t i n
d u e c o u r s e b u t I ’ m g o i n g t o a s k y o u is t h is , n o t t o s p e c u l a t e .

What

a c t u a ll y h a p p e n e d t o y o u a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o f M r J o n a s ’ s ta t e m e n ts ,
t a k i n g i n t o a c c o u n t t h e f a c t t h a t h e d i d n o t la y a c h a r g e a g a in s t y o u f o r
r e a s o n s t h a t h e g a v e t o t h e C o m m i s s io n e a r l i e r, w h a t h a p p e n e d t o y o u ,
w h a t w e r e t h e c o n s e q u e n c e s o f h i s s ta t e m e n t s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h e r e h a v e b e e n q u i te a f e w c o n s e q u e n c e s I ’l l

g e t i n to t h e m b u t b e fo r e I g e t t o t h a t a n d a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t io n , I ’d j u s t
lik e to m a k e a p o in t i f I m a y ?
10

ADV PIET LOUW:

Of course.

M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

I m e a n I ’ m n o t s u r e i f I ’l l h a v e a n o p p o r t u n i ty

t o s p e a k e v e r a g a i n s o o n c e I l e a v e t h i s c h a ir I j u s t w a n t to s a t is fy th a t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s y o u c a n m a k e y o u r p o i n t .

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a n k y o u , I t h in k t h e r e a r e th r e e l e v e l s t o

t h is w h o le s c e n a r i o t h a t n e e d t o b e s a t is fi e d , th e f ir s t o n e b e i n g i t’s t h e
d e a l in b e i n g p o l it ic a l , l e g a l a n d p e r c e p t io n .

Now on the perception

fr o n t t h a t is p u r e ly o n th e C o u r t o f p u b lic o p i n i o n w h ic h is d r iv e n b y a
n a r r a t iv e th a t s t e ms fr o m m e d ia r e p o r ts a n d a l l e g a ti o n s fr o m w h e r e v e r
they come from.
20

N o w I ’ m lo o k a t a s a c r i mi n a l , I’ m l o o k e d a t a s t h is

f a c e o f c o r r u p t io n , t h is g u y t h a t’s p l u n d e r e d t r i ll io n s o u t o f t h is c o u n t r y
w h ic h i s n o t t h e c a s e b y t h e w a y.

S o I w o u ld j u s t l ik e to s a y t o t h e

p u b lic o u t th e r e , I ’ m n o t c o r r u p t , I ’ m n o t ta k i n g a n y m o n e y fr o m
a n y b o d y, I n e v e r h a v e a n d I n e v e r w il l . H o w th e y ta k e i t , t h a t’s f o r m e
t o d e c id e . S o I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e t h a t c l e a r s o i f y o u s e e m e w a lk i n g
a r o u n d y o u k n o w, j u s t k n o w t h a t i t ’s n o t m e . S e c o n d l y t h e r e ’s t h e l e g a l

Page 39 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
p e r s p e c t iv e w h ic h is o b v i o u s l y o n e o f t h e r e a s o n s I ’ m s i t ti n g h e r e
t o d a y. T h e r e h a v e b e e n a lo t o f l e g a l r e p e r c u s s i o n s s t e m m i n g o u t o f a l l
s o r ts o f in v e s ti g a t io n s o r l a c k o f i n v e s ti g a t io n s . I ’v e h a d t o w a l k i n a n d
o u t o f c o u r t r o o ms , I’ v e h a d t o f a c e c h a r g e s t h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV PIET LOUW:

C a n I ju s t a s k y o u t h e r e , j u s t b e a b it m o r e s p e c i fic ,

y o u w e r e a r r e s te d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

Ye s t h a t’s c o r r e c t .

And what were you arrested for?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
10

T h is w a s a t t h e S p e c i a li s e d C o m m e r c i a l

C r i m e s C o u r t a n d th a t w a s a c h a r g e o f c o r r u p t i o n .
ADV PIET LOUW:

A n d w h a t d i d t h a t s t e m fr o m , w h a t w a s t h e

c o m p la i n t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

N o th e c o m p l a in t is t h e s p e c i fic m a t t e r w e ’r e

d e a li n g w it h r ig h t n o w.
ADV PIET LOUW:

The Jonas matter?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

T h e J o n a s m e e t in g ?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:
20

T h e J o n a s m a t te r y e s .

Ye s .

A n d I t h i n k , i f I m a y ju s t p e r h a p s a s s is t y o u , t h e

c h a r g e s w o u ld h a v e b e e n f r a m e d u n d e r t h e p r e v e n ti o n a n d c o m b a t in g
o f c o r r u p t a c tiv i ti e s o f 2 0 0 4 ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

A ls o k n o w n a s P R E C A ?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

Ye s t h a t’s c o r r e c t .

Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t .
As w e ll a s p e r h a p s P O C A , t h e P r e v e n t io n o f

Page 40 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
O r g a n is e d C r i m e A c t o f 1 9 9 8 .

N o w h o w d i d t h e a r r e s t t a k e p la c e ,

w h e r e w e r e y o u a r r e s te d a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

O b v i o u s ly t h e r e w a s a l o t o f s p e c u l a t i o n i n th e

m e d i a a n d b y th e ti m e I ’d – y o u k n o w I w a s l a b e ll e d t h e f u g i t iv e s o I
w a s liv i n g o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y I w a s i n s e l f – s o - c a ll e d s e l f e x i le w h ic h I
w a s n o t t h e r e a s o n s w h y I w a s n o t li v i n g h e r e w h ic h I’ ll g e t i n t o . W h e n
I l a n d e d a t O R Ta m b o I w a s e s c o r t e d t o … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV PIET LOUW:

S o y o u w e r e j u s t c o m i n g b a c k t o S o u th A f r ic a fo r

s o m e o th e r p u r p o s e ?
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

J a I w a s c o m in g f o r my li t tl e b r o th e r ’s f u n e r a l

la s t y e a r, t h a t ’s t h e r e a s o n I w a s c o m in g b a c k . S o o n my a r r iv a l th e r e
w a s o b v i o u s l y s o m e s o r t o f n o ti c e t h a t I h a d t o f a c e th e c o n s e q u e n c e s
o f m y a c t io n s a n d t h a t w h e n I a s k e d th e g e n tl e m a n a t t h e i m m i g r a ti o n
h e to l d m e i t w a s a n o ti c e th a t w a s o r i g i n a t i n g fr o m t h e R o s e b a n k
P o lic e S t a t i o n .

S o t h a t c o m p la in t w a s p u t f o r w a r d b y t h e D e m o c r a t ic

A ll i a n c e , th a t w a s a t t h e a ir p o r t , f o r t u n a t e ly my l e g a l t e a m m a n a g e d t o
a r r iv e o n ti m e a n d r e s o lv e th a t is s u e a n d w e d e a l t w i th th e m a t te r o n
t h e M o n d a y b e c a u s e I a r r iv e d , I th in k , o n t h e T h u r s d a y e v e n i n g .
ADV PIET LOUW:
20

W a s th e r e a n y p r e s s p r e s e n t w h e n y o u w e r e

arrested?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

N o n o t a t t h e a ir p o r t n o . O n t h e M o n d a y,

t h a t ’s w h e n w e w e n t t h r o u g h t h e w h o le r i g m a r o le o f g o i n g t o th e p o l ic e
s t a ti o n a n d th e n t h e c o u r t r o o m a n d , y o u k n o w, th a t ’s p u b li c k n o w le d g e .
S o th a t is t h e w a y th a t t h e a r r e s t h a p p e n e d a n d a t a l l m a te r i a l ti m e s I
h a d m y l e g a l r e p r e s e n ta t iv e w i t h m e a n d w e j u s t w a n te d t o s e e t h e

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
d o c u m e n t a ti o n w h ic h w a s n o t f o r t h c o m i n g b y t h e L a w E n fo r c e m e n t
O ff ic e r s , w e w a n te d t o s e e th e c h a r g e s h e e ts , w e w a n t e d t o s e e th e
w a r r a n ts , i f t h e r e w e r e a n y a n d w e w e r e n o t f u r n is h e d w i t h t h o s e . S o i t
w a s a v e r y p e c u li a r s i tu a ti o n b u t y o u k n o w, i t t u r n e d o u t t h e w a y it
turned out.
ADV PIET LOUW:

But it was based on Mr Jonas’ reports about what

h a p p e n e d a t th e m e e ti n g ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

10

Ye s t h a t’s e v e n tu a l ly w h a t t h a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ].

ADV PIET LOUW:

O n ly o n t h a t ?

MR

ZUMA:

D U D U ZA N E

E v e n t u a ll y

t h a t’s

what

we

found

o u t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV PIET LOUW:

A n d Mr J o n a s r e f u s e d t o m a k e a s t a t e m e n t ?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s t h a t’s a l s o w h a t w e f o u n d o u t v ia h is

t e s ti m o n y h e r e .
ADV PIET LOUW:

A n d th e n w h a t h a p p e n e d w i t h th e s e c h a r g e s ?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h e y p e r s is t e d f o r – s o w h e n w e a p p e a r e d in

t h e … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o r r y I th in k y o u w e r e a r r e s t e d in J u ly l a s t y e a r ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

Ye s i t w a s a r o u n d t h a t ti m e , s o a f te r w e

a p p e a r e d a t t h e S p e c ia li s e d C o m m e r c i a l C r i m e s C o u r t th e y p o s t p o n e d
it f o r, I t h i n k i t w a s a p e r i o d o f s ix m o n th s o r s o f o r f u r t h e r
in v e s t i g a t io n s a n d b y t h e ti m e w e ’d g o n e b a c k t o a p p e a r t h a t’s w h e n
t h e c h a r g e s w e r e p r o v is io n a l ly w it h d r a w n a n d t h a t w a s o n t h e b a s i s
t h a t th e y a r e w a it i n g f o r th e o u tc o m e o f t h e C o m m i s s io n .
ADV PIET LOUW:

D o y o u f e e l a g g r i e v e d b y th e a r r e s t ?

Page 42 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

Ja of course I do.

A r e y o u g o in g to t a k e a n y l e g a l s te p s a b o u t i t ?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

M o s t d e f in i te ly, m o s t d e fi n it e ly.

Have you – do you know – I suppose you do know

t h a t y o u r l a w y e r s h a v e a d d r e s s e d a l e tt e r o f d e m a n d t o t h e p o lic e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

For wrongful arrest.

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:
10

Ye s t h a t’s e x a c t ly … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

C o r r e c t S ir.

A lr ig h t .

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I f I m a y m a k e a p o i n t t h e r e a s o n fo r t h a t is a s

y o u fo u n d o u t o n th e c h a r g e s h e e t t h e r e h a s n o t b e e n a c o m p l a in a n t s o
y o u k n o w, m y li m i t e d k n o w le d g e o f h o w t h i n g s w o r k is , if t h e r e i s n o
c o m p la i n a n t , t h e r e ’s n o c h a r g e s . S o y o u k n o w, s o m e o n e h a s t o e x p l a i n
e x a c tl y w h a t ’s g o i n g o n … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV PIET LOUW:

L o o k I t h in k t h e r e w e r e c o m p l a i n a n ts b u t th e y w e r e

not Mr Jonas?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

A n d Mr J o n a s w o u l d n o t p r o v i d e a s t a te m e n t ?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

ADV PIET LOUW:
MR

DUDUZANE

No.

T h a t ’s t h e p o i n t I ’ m tr y i n g t o m a k e .

A lr ig h t t h e n … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ZUMA:

Sorry

if

I

may

c o n t in u e ,

I

wasn’t

d o n e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV PIET LOUW:

J a y o u w e r e s t ill a t t h e th ir d p o i n t o r s e c o n d p o i n t

y o u ’r e g o in g t o t h e t h i r d p o i n t.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s t h e s e c o n d p o i n t w a s a l e g a l w h ic h w e ’ v e

Page 43 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
c o v e r e d a b i t o f a n d I ’l l l e a v e t h a t s o I w o n ’t b e la b o u r th a t p o i n t a n d
t h e n th e fi r s t is o b v i o u s ly th e p o li t ic a l a n d I t h i n k w e ’ d a l l b e fo o l i n g
o u r s e lv e s t o th in k t h a t t h e r e h a s n ’ t b e e n a p o l i ti c a l p la y i n th e
b a c k g r o u n d , y o u k n o w, s p e c u l a ti o n is o n e t h i n g b u t I t h i n k i f y o u l o o k
b a c k i n h i n d s i g h t t h e h i s to r y s p e a k s f o r i t s e l f . If y o u l o o k a t h o w a l o t
o f is s u e s h a v e c o m e t o t h e fo r e t h e p e o p l e t h a t h a v e b r o u g h t t h e is s u e s
t o th e f o r e , w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d t o p e o p l e o n e i th e r s id e o f t h e p o li ti c a l
w r a n g li n g s , I th in k t h a t is a n o b v i o u s c a s e , a n d I’ v e s a i d i t b e f o r e a n d
I’ m s a y in g i t a g a in , I b e li e v e I’ m u n f o r t u n a t e ly c a u g h t in a p o li t ic a l
10

storm.
ADV PIET LOUW:

A lr ig h t th e s e c o n d la s t p o i n t I w is h t o d e a l w i t h is , a

p o i n t t h a t o u r le a r n e d c o l l e a g u e m a d e y e s t e r d a y, o v e r a n d o v e r a g a in
w h ic h w a s t h a t th e r e is a d i s c r e p a n c y b e tw e e n th e v e r s io n th a t y o u to ld
t h e C h a i r a b o u t t h e m e e ti n g , n a m e ly th a t M r R a j e s h G u p ta c a m e i n a n d
w h a t M r H l o n g w a n e s a i d i n h i s i n t e r v ie w w i t h th e P u b lic P r o te c to r
s a y in g t h a t i t w a s n o t o n e o f t h e th r e e G u p t a b r o t h e r s i t m i g h t h a v e
been another one, he doesn’t know but it perhaps not Mr Rajesh, do
y o u r e c a ll t h a t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

ADV PIET LOUW:

Ye s I r e c a ll th a t .

A n d i t w a s p u t t o y o u o n t h e b a s is , I w o u ld t h i n k

t h a t th is d i s c r e p a n c y is d e s t r u c tiv e o f y o u r v e r s i o n .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

Ye s .

A n d t h e tr u t h o f y o u r v e r s i o n . N o w c o u l d I a s k y o u

n o t to s p e c u l a t e a b o u t w h a t M r H l o n g w a n e m i g h t h a v e t h o u g h t o n t h i s
p o i n t b u t p e r h a p s j u s t t o t u r n t o p a g e – in t h e s e c o n d b u n d le o f L L 1 A –

Page 44 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s o r r y t h is is n o w a t B – L L 1 B , p a g e 7 4 2 .
CHAIRPERSON:

Pl e a s e j u s t r e p e a t t h e p a g e n u m b e r ?

ADV PIET LOUW:

742.

CHAIRPERSON: 742.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t w o u l d b e Mr R a j e s h ’s s ta t e m e n t?
ADV PIET LOUW:

Ye s y o u p e r h a p s h a v e s e e n th is b e fo r e b u t h e

m a k e s t h e p o i n t th a t h e w a s t h e r e a t th e p r o p e r ty t h a t i n d e e d h e d i d
p e e k i n to t h e m e e ti n g , t a k e y o u o u t a n d h a d a q u ic k d is c u s s i o n w i t h
y o u a b o u t a d m i n is tr a t iv e th in g s a n d t h e n l e ft .
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

Ye s .

A n d th is i n o n o a t h , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
ADV PIET LOUW:

Ye s s ir.

G o o d M r Z u m a I th i n k i n c o n c lu s i o n , m a y I a s k y o u

w h e t h e r t h e r e ’s a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u w o u ld w a n t t o a d d t o y o u r e v i d e n c e ,
y o u h a v e r e fr e s h e d y o u r m e m o r y a b o u t t h e s ta t e m e n t t h a t y o u m a d e
t h a t y o u m a d e t o t h e C h a ir, y o u m a d e t h e p o i n t y e s t e r d a y t h a t y o u r
s t a te m e n t is p e r h a p s n o t a s c o m p r e h e n s iv e a s o t h e r w is e i t c o u l d h a v e
b e e n , i t d id n ’t d e a l w i th a l l o f t h e p h o n e c a l ls a n d S M S ’s a n d
W h a t s A p p ’s p e r h a p s l e a d i n g u p to th e m e e ti n g w i t h Mr J o n a s a n d
20

p e r h a p s a f te r w a r d s .

Yo u ’v e s e e n w h a t M r J o n a s s a id a b o u t t h a t, y o u

a g r e e t h a t t h e r e w e r e c o m m u n ic a t i o n s b e t w e e n y o u , i s th e r e a n y t h i n g
e ls e p e r h a p s , d e t a i l t h a t y o u w o u l d w a n t t o f o c u s o n i n c o n c l u s i o n , y o u
w i ll n o t h a v e t h e c h a n c e a g a i n ?
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

I th in k a lo t o f t h e p o in t s w e ’v e c o v e r e d a n d

a s M r M o k o e n a s a id a n d t h e r e ’s a l o t o f c o m m o n c a u s e is s u e s t h a t a r e

Page 45 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
[i n d is t in c t] b e c a u s e w e a g r e e o n t h e v e r s i o n s . A t t h is p o in t I t h i n k I’ v e
s a i d – I ’v e s a id w h a t I c a n s a y, m y s t a te m e n t o b v i o u s ly is n o t a s
c o m p r e h e n s iv e a s i t s h o u l d b e b u t I t h i n k t h a t ’s t h e p o i n t s t h a t I w a n t e d
t o c o v e r. A l o t o f w h a t h a s b e e n s a i d I d o n ’ t k n o w t h e d e t a i l o f I h a v e
n o t c h e c k e d p e o p le ’s c e ll p h o n e r e c o r d s , S M S ’s , p h o n e c a ll s a n d
w h a t e v e r e ls e m a y h a v e b e e n l e f t o u t o f m y a ffi d a v i t .
ADV PIET LOUW:

M r Z u m a i f t h e r e a r e a n y f u r th e r q u e r i e s b y th e

C o m m i s s i o n w o u l d y o u a s s is t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
10

I’ m h e r e to c o m p ly, I’v e c o m p l ie d t h e w h o l e

w a y th r o u g h , e v e n t h o u g h i t ’s b e e n m a d e t o l o o k l ik e I ’v e b e e n e v a s iv e
a n d r u n n i n g a w a y I’ v e b e e n h e r e th r e e t i m e s b e f o r e , t h is i s m y f o u r th
ti m e s o I h a v e n o is s u e s w i t h c o m p ly in g w it h t h e C o m m i s s io n . I h o p e I
d o n ’t h a v e t o s e e Mr Z o n d o e v e r a g a in b u t if I h a v e to , I’v e c o m p l i e d
a n d I w il l c o m p l y.
ADV PIET LOUW:
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir th o s e a r e t h e q u e s ti o n s , th a n k y o u .
No thank you very much. I suspect that Mr Mokoena

w i s h e s t o s a y s o m e t h i n g b u t I t h i n k w e m u s t t a k e th e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t
n o w. I w i ll a ls o h a v e m a y b e a f e w q u e s t i o n s t o p u t t o y o u M r Zu m a . I
c a n m e n t io n th a t I d id s h a r e w i th y o u r c o u n s e l , t h e l e g a l t e a m t h a t
20

t h e r e a r e o th e r s ta t e m e n ts in w h i c h y o u h a v e b e e n m e n ti o n e d in r e g a r d
t o m e e ti n g s o th e r t h a n t h e o n e s th a t y o u h a v e b e e n a s k e d a b o u t a n d –
b u t t h e a r r a n g e m e n t is th a t – m y i m p r e s s io n , o r m y u n d e r s t a n d in g is
t h a t t h o s e w o u ld h a v e b e e n s e n t to y o u b e f o r e b u t y o u r le g a l t e a m w a s
n o t s u r e w h e t h e r t h e y w e r e s e n t o r w h e t h e r t h e y r e c e iv e d t h e m . S o t h e
a r r a n g e m e n t i s th a t th e C o m m is s i o n ’s l e g a l t e a m w i ll l o o k a t w h e th e r

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t h e y w e r e s e n t a n d b e i n t o u c h w i th y o u r l e g a l t e a m a n d i f th e r e i s a
n e e d f o r y o u t o d e a l w i th t h e m i n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r t h e r e w il l b e
d is c u s s io n s a r o u n d th a t , t h a t m a y o r m a y n o t e n t a i l a r e q u e s t th a t y o u
c o m e b a c k b u t b o t h le g a l t e a ms w il l lo o k a t a l l i s s u e s a n d y o u w i ll h e a r
fr o m y o u r l e g a l te a m a b o u t th o s e .

S o I t h o u g h t I w o u l d j u s t m e n ti o n

t h a t fo r n o w.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you very m uch.

Ye s b u t I r e a l is e th a t y o u d o n ’ t w a n t to s e e m e a g a in .

W e a r e g o in g t o t a k e t h e t e a a d jo u r n m e n t i t ’s t w e n ty - s i x m i n u t e s p a s t
10

e l e v e n , w e ’ ll r e s u m e a t t w e n ty t o t w e l v e , w e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r C h a i r y o u w o u ld r e c a l l th a t y e s t e r d a y
I s ta y e d a w a y p o s in g a n y q u e s t io n s r e l a ti n g t o t h e P u b lic Pr o t e c t o r
b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t t h a t t h a t p r o c e e d in g s h a d th e ir o w n li f e a n d s w a y
a n d t h e y w e r e d e a l t w i t h d e c is iv e l y. B u t I s e e th a t t h e y a ls o e m e r g e d
in r e - e x a m i n a ti o n a n d I th o u g h t t h a t m a y b e t h e r e m u s t b e t w o o r t h r e e
c la r i ty q u e s t i o n s fr o m o u r s i d e t o Mr Z u m a s i m p l y y o u k n o w t o p l a c e th e

20

m a t t e r in i ts p r o p e r c o n te x t . A n d i f I a m p e r m i t te d I w il l l i m i t m y s e l f t o
o n ly t h o s e t h r e e o r f o u r q u e s t io n s o f th e P P b e c a u s e I t h i n k i t is q u i te
i m p o r t a n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o th a t i s a lr i g h t . A n d I t h i n k y o u m u s t m a y b e
u s e t h is o p p o r tu n i t y t o te ll m e w h a t h a p p e n e d t o t h e d is c u s s i o n s t h a t
y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o h a v e w i th Mr Z u m a ’s l e g a l t e a m a b o u t t h e i s s u e

Page 47 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t h a t h e r a i s e d y e s te r d a y.

I t h in k h e w a s s a y i n g t h e r e w a s s o m e

o m is s io n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I s a i d t h e l e g a l t e a m s w i ll t a lk a n d t h e n I w o u ld
b e u p d a te d – I w o u l d b e – I w o u ld g e t a r e p o r t b a c k t h is m o r n i n g a b o u t
w h e t h e r i t is s o m e t h i n g t h a t I n e e d to k n o w o r w h a t t h e p o s it i o n is .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

It would appear that it was never

p e r s i s te d w i t h b e c a u s e M r L o u w d id n o t p e r s is t w it h i t to d a y C h a ir a n d I
t a k e i t t h a t i t w a s s i n c e r e s o lv e d e i th e r b e t w e e n Mr Z u m a a n d h is le g a l
10

t e a m b e c a u s e n o o n e h a v e r a is e d it f o r t o d a y. S o i t m i g h t b e th a t i t is
n o – i t i s n o l o n g e r a n is s u e .
R E G I S T R A R : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B u t o u g h t y o u k n o w t o r e c e iv e y o u r

a tt e n ti o n
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll if t h e r e i s n o – n o is s u e a n d w h a t e v e r h e m ig h t
h a v e b e e n – h a d i n m i n d is s o r t e d t h e n t h a t w o u l d b e fi n e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t I t h i n k M r L o u w w il l o r w i s h e s t o s a y s o m e t h i n g .
M a y b e l e t u s c l e a r t h a t a n d t h a t b e fo r e y o u c o n t i n u e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : Th a n k y o u M r C h a ir t h e – t h e r e a r e t w o p o i n ts t h a t
o u r l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e m a d e .

H e w a n t s t o a s k a f e w q u e s ti o n s a b o u t

t h e P u b lic P r o te c t o r w e h a v e n o q u a r r e l w i th t h a t o f c o u r s e .

Page 48 of 163

The

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
r e a s o n w h y w e d e a l t w i th th e P u b li c P r o t e c to r i s b e c a u s e o f r e p o r ts
t h a t h a v e a p p a r e n tl y b e e n p u b l is h e d o v e r n i g h t in s o m e o f t h e p r e s s
a b o u t w h a t M r Zu m a s a id y e s t e r d a y i n t h e s e – i n th e s e p r o c e e d i n g s .
S o i t w a s r e a l ly t o g i v e h i m a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o d e a l w i t h t h a t a n d ju s t to
p e r h a p s c la r i fy i s s u e s f r o m h is p e r s p e c t iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : I t w a s n o t – it w a s n o t to d e a l w i t h a n e w fr o n t a n d
o p e n i n g a n e w fr o n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

A D V P I E T L O U W : T h e s e c o n d p o in t is th e i s s u e o f i t w a s d e a l t – i t w a s
t e r m e d I t h in k y e s te r d a y a n o m i s s io n o r a n o v e r s i g h t o r a g a p o r
s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : M r C h a ir w i th – w i t h r e s p e c t a f te r s o m e r e f le c ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P I E T L O U W : W e d e c i d e d n o t t o a s k q u e s ti o n s a b o u t i t . I t r e a l ly
c o n c e r n s M s M e n t o o r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d w h a t s h e t e s ti f ie d a b o u t …

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d b u t w e c a n d e a l w i th a ll o f
those.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW: Aspects.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V P I E T L O U W : A t th e e n d o f th e d a y s h o u ld y o u i n v i te u s to p r e s e n t
argument.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : W h ic h w e ta k e – ta k e i t th a t y o u w ill .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : Ta k in g i n t o a c c o u n t Mr C h a ir t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : I n s o f a r a s t h i s p a r t o f it e m 1 .1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V P I E T L O U W : O f t h e s c h e d u l e to t h e p r o c l a m a t io n i s c o n c e r n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : Yo u h a v e to m a k e a fa c t u a l f i n d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW:

A n d w e w o u ld l ik e o f c o u r s e i n d u e c o u r s e t o

present an argument to you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : O n t h a t f a c tu a l f in d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW: Submissions yes.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o – s o w e h a v e n o q u a r r e l w i th q u e s ti o n s a b o u t t h e
P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P I E T L O U W : I t o l d y o u w h y w e w e n t th e r e th is m o r n in g a n d th e n
in s o f a r a s t h e o t h e r a s p e c t i s c o n c e r n e d o n c e a g a i n .

Page 50 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P I E T L O U W : I t i s n o t r e a lly a m a t te r f o r Mr Z u m a to d e a l w i th .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW: It is more a matter of argument.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine. Thank you.
ADV PIET LOUW: Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:
10

M r Zu m a I a m s u r e th a t th e P u b l ic

P r o t e c t o r ’s y o u k n o w r e p o r ts w h i c h a r e n o t h e r e w e l l s p e a k fo r
t h e m s e l v e s . W e d i d n o t b r i n g th e m a l o n g a n d I a m s i m p l y a s k in g t h e s e
q u e s t io n s i n o r d e r to c la r i fy c e r t a i n a s p e c t s y o u k n o w a r is i n g fr o m y o u r
r e - e x a m in a ti o n . D o I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c tl y t h a t y o u d id a s a m a t te r
o f f a c t r e c e i v e a n i n v i t a ti o n fr o m t h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: At some…
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : To p a r ti c i p a t e i n t h e p r o c e e d i n g s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A t s o m e p o in t y e s I d i d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d y o u t h e n w e n t o v e r s e a s , a m I
correct?

20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s I w a s o u t o f t h e c o u n t r y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Yo u r e c e i v e d t h e n a s u b p o e n a ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A f te r …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h ic h - y e s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A f te r a p h o n e c a ll y e s I r e c e i v e d th e s u b p o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s . A n d y o u w e r e n o t a b le to h o n o u r

Page 51 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
the subpoena because you were overseas?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s a n d I c o m m u n ic a t e d i t q u it e c l e a r ly t h a t I
a m tr a v e l li n g w h e n I g e t b a c k I w il l c o m e a n d p r e s e n t m y s e l f .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . S o y o u w e r e n o t ig n o r e d . A t l e a s t
t h e r e w a s t h e i n v it a ti o n a n d t h e r e w a s s u b p o e n a ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k s C h a ir.

Okay no thank you.

M r Z u m a I h a v e ju s t a f e w

q u e s t io n s t o c l a r i fy c e r ta i n t h in g s .
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s .

B e f o r e y o u a s k C h a ir c a n I ju s t c l a r i f y

o n e th i n g ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

J u s t fr o m t h e l in e o f q u e s ti o n i n g a b o u t

[i n d is t in c t] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I j u s t w a n t to m a k e it c le a r th e p r o c e d u r a l p a r t
o f h o w t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r d e a l t w i t h i t i t is – i t i s u p fo r d e b a te . Al l I
a m s a y i n g i s m y v e r s i o n is n o t o n th e f in a l r e p o r t a n d I t a k e y o u r p o i n t,
lo o k f o r a n o th e r a v e n u e . Yo u s a id th a t I s h o u l d h a v e m a y b e t a k e n a n
20

a p p r o a c h li k e M r A j a y G u p t a d i d to fo r c e h i m s e l f to g o a n d p r e s e n t
h i m s e l f . O n c e a g a in I h u m b ly d is a g r e e w i t h t h a t b e c a u s e if p e o p l e a r e
lo o k in g fo r a v e r s io n s a n d a v e r s i o n s o f e v e n ts y o u k n o w t h a t i s
s o m e t h i n g t h a t w e n e e d to p r e s e n t .

T h e y n e e d t o g iv e u s th a t

o p p o r t u n i ty. W e c a n n o t b e fi g h ti n g f o r t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty e s p e c i a l ly w h e n
it is s o m e t h i n g th a t a ff e c t s u s v i a a l le g a ti o n s .

Page 52 of 163

S o I a m j u s t m e r e ly

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
p u t t in g a c r o s s t h a t I a m s i tt i n g h e r e t o d a y a n d t h a t is w h a t I s a i d
y e s t e r d a y w h y is m y v e r s i o n n o t o n – o f e v e n ts n o t o n t h e P u b li c
P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t ? T h a t i s a ll I a m s a y in g .
CHAIRPERSON: No that is fine.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t a ls o I m u s t j u s t s a y w h e n I r e f e r to w h a t M r A j a y
G u p t a d i d I w a s n o t n e c e s s a r il y s a y in g t h a t i s w h a t y o u w e r e o b l ig e d to
d o o r n e c e s s a r ily s h o u ld h a v e d o n e .

I w a s s i m p ly s a y in g h e r e is

a n o t h e r w a y i n w h ic h s o m e b o d y e l s e w h o w a n t e d t o p u t h is s id e o f t h e
10

s t o r y th a t h e d id m a y b e a n d I t h in k I p u t t h a t m a y b e th a t is w h a t y o u
s h o u l d h a v e c o n s i d e r e d a s w e ll . S o I p u t i t n o h i g h e r t h a n t h a t .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Good.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A lr ig h t .

Yo u r e fe r r e d t o d r i n k s o r d r i n k i n g

f a c i li t ie s w h e n y o u r c o u n s e l a s k e d y o u I t h i n k a b o u t y o u r – a b o u t t h e
c h o ic e t o g o t o t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e f o r th i s m e e t i n g a m o n g t h e t h r e e o f
y o u t h a t is y o u r s e l f , M r H lo n g w a n e a n d M r J o n a s .

But I did not hear

t h e e x a c t fu ll s t o r y o f w h a t y o u s a y a b o u t d r i n k s . W e r e y o u s a y i n g th a t
20

A D V P I E T L O U W : N o t s p e a k in g i n t o m ic r o p h o n e .
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry yes.
A D V P I E T L O U W : I n f a c il it i e s . I t w a s n o t a s h e b e e n . I t w a s c a te r i n g
f a c i li t ie s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O h c a t e r in g f a c il it i e s .

W e ll I d id s a y I d i d n o t h e a r

t h e w h o le s t o r y a n d m a y b e t h a t is w h y i t i s i m p o r t a n t to c l a r i f y.

Page 53 of 163

Just

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
r e p e a t e x a c tl y w h a t y o u w e r e s a y i n g a b o u t w h e th e r i t is c a t e r i n g o r
d r i n k s o r w h a t e v e r.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I w il l d o s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A :

Thank you.

W h a t I w a s r e fe r r i n g t o w a s

i m m e d i a t e fa c il i ti e s f o r a n y c a t e r i n g r e q u i r e m e n ts f o r g u e s ts o r p e o p le
t h a t w e m e e ti n g w i th . Th a t w o u ld b e t e a , c o ff e e , s n a c k s , b is c u i ts , n u t s ,
w h a t e v e r – w h a t e v e r p e o p l e h a v e s o th a t i s w h a t I w a s r e f e r r in g to .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Hot drinks as in…
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Te m p e r a t u r e n o t – n o t a lc o h o l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o . N o w m y d i ffi c u l ty w i t h t h a t i s t h a t I w o u l d t h i n k
t h a t in y o u r o w n h o u s e a t S a x o n w o l d y o u w o u ld r e c e iv e fr i e n d s a n d i f
y o u w o u l d r e c e iv e fr i e n d s y o u w o u l d o ff e r t h e m d r i n k s s o w h y w o u ld –
w h y w o u ld t h e f a c t th a t t h e r e a r e c a t e r i n g – t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n c a t e r in g
f a c i li t ie s a t t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e r e a l ly b e a n i m p o r ta n t f a c t o r i n t h e
c h o ic e o f t h e v e n u e w h e n y o u w e r e t a l k i n g a b o u t – o n e o f t h e – t h e f a c t
t h a t o n e o f th e s e p e o p l e is y o u r fr ie n d , M r H l o n g w a n e w a s y o u r fr ie n d

20

a n d t h e o t h e r p e r s o n w a s y o u r fr ie n d ’s fr i e n d . S o o n e w o u l d th i n k t h a t
it is n o r m a l to h a v e fr ie n d s . I t is n o t a l a r g e g r o u p i t is ju s t tw o p e o p l e
t h e n y o u r s e l f th e n i t is t h r e e p e o p l e a n d I w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t th a t i f
y o u h a v e t w o o r th r e e fr i e n d s i n y o u r o w n h o m e y o u c a n m a k e s u r e y o u
c a n a ffo r d t h e m d r i n k s l ik e t h a t . S o – o r is t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t y o u d id n o t
– y o u d i d n o t e n t e r t a i n f r i e n d s in y o u r h o m e ? M a k e m e u n d e r s t a n d .

Page 54 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s , Ye s I w i ll d o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

C h a ir w h e n I s a i d t h e c a te r i n g p a r ts a n d t h e

d r i n k s a n d s o r t o f t h i n g I t h i n k I d id n o t s a y i t i n i s o la t io n I m e n t io n e d
o ffic e f a c i li t ie s a s w e l l a n d s ta ff . S o i t i s w h o le …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w a t t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A : W h ic h is – y e s – w h ic h is s o m e t h i n g t h a t I m a y
10

o r m a y n o t h a v e a t m y p l a c e w h i c h m ig h t in f o r m m y d e c is i o n s n o t t o
h a v e m e e ti n g s t h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . /
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I w a s a s k e d i f I h a v e a n o ff ic e t h e r e , y e s I

h a v e m y o w n p e r s o n a l o ffi c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

B u t d o I h a v e f a c i li t ie s t h a t w o u ld b e o ffic e

ty p e , p r i n t e r s , s ta ff , r u n n e r s , w h a te v e r it i s , n o I d o n o t . S o t o a n s w e r
y o u r q u e s ti o n o f c o u r s e I h a v e e n te r t a in e d v e r y fe w fr i e n d s n o t m a n y. I
d o n o t h a v e a h u g e s ta ff c o m p l i m e n t . I d o n o t h a v e ty p ic a l o ffic e ty p e
20

e q u ip m e n t i n m y h o m e a n d th a t is w h a t w o u l d h a v e m a d e m e n o t h a v e
a n y m e e ti n g s o f th a t s o r t .

N o w t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t io n .

O n U n c le

F a n a b e in g a fr i e n d M r J o n a s b e in g t h e fr i e n d ’s fr ie n d I th i n k I h a v e
s t a te d q u i t e c le a r ly t h a t I d o n o t c o n d u c t b u s i n e s s m e e t in g s f r o m o r
m e e ti n g s o f t h a t n a t u r e fr o m m y r e s i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll t h is w a s n o t a s I u n d e r s ta n d i t a n d y o u m u s t t e ll

Page 55 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
me

if m y

u n d e r s t a n d in g

of your

e v id e n c e

is

not correct.

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g o f y o u r e v i d e n c e s u g g e s t t h a t t h i s w a s n o t a b u s in e s s
m e e ti n g .

T h is w a s a n – a m e e ti n g w h e r e y o u s o u g h t to a ff o r d t w o

fr i e n d s – fr ie n d s t o t h e ms e lv e s n o t b o t h t o y o u – t w o fr i e n d s w h o h a d
a n is s u e t o d is c u s s , a p r iv a t e i s s u e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P r i v a t e is s u e to d is c u s s a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o d is c u s s a n d
it ju s t s e e m s t o m e t h a t th e – t h e r e s h o u l d b e n o r e a s o n w h y y o u
c a n n o t h a v e tw o fr i e n d s i n y o u r h o m e w h o w a n t to d is c u s s a p r i v a t e
10

m a t t e r.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s . T h e t w o fr i e n d s . T h e y w e r e fr i e n d l y t o

e a c h o t h e r. I o n ly h a d o n e fr ie n d s o th e o th e r t e c h n ic a l ly is n o t – a n d
w a s n o t my fr i e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o h e r e m a i n s – h e r e m a i n s a le t u s c a ll i t a
s tr a n g e r w e l l e s p e c ia ll y a t th a t p o in t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o fr o m – fr o m a w e l c o m i n g p e r s p e c tiv e f r o m
h a v i n g s o m e o n e i n m y h o m e t h a t I d o n o t k n o w is s o m e t h i n g t h a t I d o
20

n o t g e n e r a l ly d o a n d I d i d n o t d o o n t h a t d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

J a w e l l I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t th a t a t l e a s t fo r

p u r p o s e s o f t h a t k in d o f m e e ti n g y o u r fr i e n d ’s f r i e n d w o u l d b e w e lc o m e
t o y o u r h o m e f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h i s d is c u s s io n w h ic h y o u h a d t a k e n
tr o u b le t o s a y I w a n t t o h e l p t h e m r e s o lv e t h is .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .

Page 56 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e I a m c o m i n g fr o m .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I u n d e r s ta n d th a t.

I understand where you

c o m i n g fr o m C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . A n d my – a n d y o u m u s t t e ll m e w a s t h e r e
a n e e d f o r a n y o ffi c e f a c il it i e s fo r t h i s m e e ti n g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o t h o u g h I m e n ti o n e d t h e o ff ic e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Just because you were asked.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o , n o b e c a u s e t h a t is w h a t m y d a i ly b u s i n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M y d a i ly m o v e m e n ts w e r e lik e s o
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e p o i n t I w a s t r y i n g t o m a k e w i t h th e o ffic e
f a c i li t ie s b e c a u s e I w a s a s k e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A d ir e c t q u e s ti o n , w h y d i d I n o t g o t o m y o ffic e
to have the meeting.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O h o k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: What put me – what put me at a residence at
t h a t p o in t a n d I h a d m e n t i o n e d .

20

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h o s e fa c i li ti e s s o to h ig h l i g h t w h y I c o u ld

h a v e m e e ti n g s o f t h a t n a tu r e w o r k r e l a te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : In t h a t s p a c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o , n o th a t is f in e .

Page 57 of 163

I w a n te d t o a l s o m e n ti o n

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
b e c a u s e y o u a s k e d y e s te r d a y a b o u t t h e c o m m i s s io n w h e t h e r i t w a s
in v e s t i g a t in g o r h a d i n v e s ti g a t e d c e r ta i n a l le g a t i o n s a g a i n s t y o u .
1 . T h e c o m m i s s io n i n v e s ti g a te s a l le g a ti o n s t h a t f a l l w i t h i n t h e t e r m s
o f r e f e r e n c e o f t h e c o m m i s s io n b u t y o u k n o w t h e r e w i ll b e a ll
k in d s o f a l l e g a ti o n s e v e n i n a s t a te m e n t o f o n e w i t n e s s .

And

s o m e w i ll b e i m p o r t a n t fo r p u r p o s e s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n s o m e
m i g h t n o t r e a l ly b e s o i m p o r t a n t f o r p u r p o s e s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n
b u t m ig h t b e i m p o r t a n t t o t h e p e r s o n s a ff e c t e d .
c o m m i s s io n
10

might

not

in v e s ti g a t e

e v e r y t h in g

th a t

S o th e
it

is

in

s o m e b o d y ’s s t a t e m e n t b u t s e e k t o r e a ll y in v e s t i g a t e th o s e t h a t
a p p e a r t o b e m a t e r ia l f o r it s o w n p u r p o s e s . S o i t d o e s t h a t .
B u t I w a n t t o t a k e th is o p p o r tu n i t y t o m e n t i o n t o y o u fo r w h a t it is w o r t h
t h a t M r A j a y G u p ta a n d M r A t u l G u p ta a s y o u k n o w a r e n o t p a r ti c i p a t i n g
in a n y w a y in t h e s e p r o c e e d in g s . B u t i n r e g a r d to M r J o n a s ’ e v id e n c e
M r Aj a y G u p t a a n d M r R a je s h G u p t a I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r a b o u t M r A t u l
G u p t a t h e y f il e d a ff id a v i ts i n th e ir a p p l ic a t io n f o r L e a v e to C r o s s e x a m in e M r J o n a s a n d i n t h o s e a ffi d a v i ts t h e y s a i d w h a t t h e y s a i d a n d
in r e g a r d t o M r A j a y G u p t a h e s a id o n t h a t d a y h e w a s i n h is S a n d t o n
o ffic e s . H e w a s n o t a t th e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e . M o n t h s b a c k – o h a n d s h e

20

– a n d h e s a i d i n h i s a ffi d a v i t h e m e n ti o n e d th e n a m e o f a c e r ta in l a d y
a n d h e s a id t h a t la d y w h o w o r k s f o r h i s c o m p a n y w o u l d c o r r o b o r a t e h is
a l ib i a n d h e s a i d a n d o t h e r e m p lo y e e s b u t h e g a v e t h e n a m e o f a
p a r t ic u l a r l a d y.

M a n y m o n th s b a c k I s a i d t h e i n v e s ti g a to r s m u s t

a p p r o a c h t h a t l a d y a n d tr y a n d g e t h e r s t a te m e n t fr o m h e r. A n d – s o
t h a t i f n e c e s s a r y s h e c o u l d c o m e a n d g i v e e v i d e n c e to s a y w h a t s h e

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m a y k n o w a b o u t w h e r e M r A j a y G u p ta w a s o n t h e d a y. R e c e n t ly I w a s
t o l d t h a t t h e r e w e r e d i ff ic u l ti e s in – i n g e t t in g h o ld o f th a t l a d y. S o t h e
c o m m i s s io n is i n te r e s t e d e v e n i f th e G u p ta ’s m a y n o t b e p a r t ic ip a ti n g if
t h e y h a v e p la c e d i n f o r m a ti o n b e fo r e t h e c o m m is s i o n t h a t m a y b e h e l p f u l
f o r t h e c o m m i s s io n t o g e t t o t h e b o t t o m o f w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e
c o m m i s s io n w il l i n v e s t ig a te t h a t .

I c a n s a y t h a t in d u e c o u r s e

ir r e s p e c t iv e o f w h e th e r th a t l a d y is fo u n d o r n o t i n d u e c o u r s e p r o b a b ly
t h e r e w il l b e o n e o r t w o w i tn e s s e s w h o w il l c o m e t o t h e c o m m i s s io n a n d
– a n d t a l k a b o u t M r A ja y ’s a l ib i a s w e l l a s Mr A t u l – M r A ja y G u p t a ’s
10

a l ib i , M r A t u l G u p ta ’s p o s i ti o n a s w e ll b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g is t h a t
it w a s s a i d t h a t h e w a s o u t o f t h e c o u n tr y a t th e ti m e . T h a t i s M r A t u l
G u p t a . I h a v e g i v e n i n s tr u c ti o n s t h a t th e i n v e s ti g a to r s m u s t c h e c k th a t .
A n d i f t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t c o m e s o u t s h o w s th a t h e w a s o u t o f th e
c o u n tr y t h a t w il l b e p u t o u t h e r e in th e p u b li c .

I f Mr A j a y G u p t a t h e

in v e s t i g a t io n s s h o w s t h a t M r Aj a y G u p t a w a s n o t a t t h e r e s id e n c e a t th e
r e l e v a n t t i m e th a t a ls o w i ll b e p u t u p h e r e p u b l ic ly. S o I ju s t w a n t y o u
t o – t o k n o w t h a t w e – w e – e v e n w i t h t h e m n o t p a r tic ip a t in g i f t h e y
h a v e p u t i n fo r m a ti o n b e fo r e t h e c o m m is s i o n th a t m i g h t b e i m p o r t a n t f o r
u s to e s t a b lis h w h o w a s w h e r e w h e n w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g w e w i ll lo o k
20

in t o th a t . A n d – a n d th e p u b li c w i ll k n o w. S o – b u t a s I s a y t h e r e m a y
b e s o m e a ll e g a t io n s t h a t a p a r t ic u l a r p e r s o n w h o i s a ff e c t e d m ig h t t h in k
is i m p o r ta n t t o f o l l o w u p b u t t h e c o m m is s i o n m i g h t th in k f o r i ts
p u r p o s e s i t s h o u ld n o t s p e n d m o r e r e s o u r c e s o n t h a t. B u t a n y a ffe c te d
p e r s o n s h o u l d f e e l fr e e t o a p p r o a c h th e c o m m i s s io n a n d s a y t h e r e is
t h is a l le g a ti o n t h a t w a s m a d e a b o u t m e I w o u l d lik e i t to b e lo o k e d i n t o .

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
T h e n t h e c o m m i s s io n m ig h t b e a b l e t o s a y lo o k w e d o n o t th i n k w e w a n t
t o s p e n d m o r e r e s o u r c e s o n th is b u t i f y o u h a v e a n y t h i n g t h a t y o u w a n t
= t h a t y o u a r e a b l e t o f in d b r i n g i t . Yo u k n o w. S o – s o – s o I m e n ti o n
t h a t j u s t s o th a t
1 . Yo u k n o w.

B u t a ls o I ju s t w a n t t h e p u b li c t o k n o w th a t w e a r e

lo o k in g a t e v e r y t h i n g . W e a r e lo o k i n g a t e v e r y t h i n g .

We do not

h a v e a v e r s i o n th a t w e w a n t to b e p r o v e d . W e ju s t w a n t t h e tr u th
and wherever we might get the evidence.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s . O k a y th e l a s t q u e s ti o n t h a t I w a n t e d t o
a s k r e l a te s t o t h e r u m o u r t h a t g a v e r is e t o t h e m e e ti n g . Is t h e p o s i t io n
t h a t y o u a l s o d i d n o t k n o w a n y f a c ts i n r e l a ti o n t o t h i s r u m o u r – a ll y o u
k n e w is th e r e w a s a r u m o u r ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is th e p o s i ti o n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a t is th e p o s i ti o n .

And once – so in other words

t h e r e w a s n o t m u c h i n fo r m a t i o n th a t y o u w e r e g o in g to b e a b le to g iv e
t o t h e t w o m e n a t t h e m e e t in g o t h e r th a n th is is w h a t i s b e i n g s a i d i n
t e r m s o f th e r u m o u r b u t I h a v e n o fu r t h e r i n fo r m a t i o n .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d o n c e – o n c e M r J o n a s d e n i e d h a v i n g b l a c k m a i le d
M r H lo n g w a n e w a s th a t b a s ic a l ly t h e e n d o f t h a t d is c u s s i o n b e c a u s e
n o b o d y h a d f u r t h e r i n fo r m a t i o n ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h e r e w a s n o f u r th e r i n f o r m a t io n b u t i t w a s

Page 60 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s t il l i n t e r r o g a t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y e s . A n d

on

your

u n d e r s t a n d in g

did

Mr

H l o n g w a n e b e li e v e th a t Mr J o n a s w a s r e s p o n s i b l e f o r – f o r th is r u m o u r
o r h a d d o n e w h a t th e r u m o u r s s u g g e s t e d h e h a d d o n e o r w a s h i s
p o s i ti o n th a t h e d i d n o t k n o w b u t w a n t to f i n d o u t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A t th a t p o in t fr o m w h a t I h a d k n o w n h e d i d n o t
k n o w a n d w a n t e d t o fi n d o u t.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

A n d d id h e a c c e p t Mr J o n a s ’ d e n ia l a s y o u

u n d e r s t o o d t h e p o s i t io n a t t h e m e e t in g ? O r d i d h e n o t a c c e p t i t .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

L ik e I s a i d t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d o ff a f t e r th e

d e n ia l i t t o o k it s tu r n a n d b y th e t i m e th e m e e ti n g w a s d o n e t h e r e w a s a
c o n v e r s a ti o n t o r e c o n v e n e e a r li e r i n th e w e e k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : To p ic k u p d is c u s s io n s t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f i t .
So whether it was not.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n t h a t S ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t . N o w y o u r a r r e s t t h a t y o u ta lk e d a b o u t

w h e n y o u r c o u n s e l w a s l e a d in g y o u – w a s r e - e x a m i n i n g y o u .

Was it

s o l e ly r e la t e d t o t h e m e e ti n g t h a t to o k p la c e a t t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e
a tt e n d e d b y M r J o n a s a n d y o u r s e l f a n d Mr H l o n g w a n e b u t o n h is

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
v e r s i o n p lu s s o m e b o d y fr o m t h e G u p t a f a m il y ?

D i d it s o l e l y r e l a te t o

t h a t o r d i d i t r e l a t e to o t h e r t h i n g s a s w e ll ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

C h a ir n o i t s o le ly r e l a t e d t o th a t s p e c i f ic

m e e ti n g a n d a s m y c o u n s e l p o i n t e d o u t t h a t i t h a d t o d o w i t h t h e p o k e r
a n d th e p u c k e r i s s u e s . S o a r o u n d t h e s o c a l le d b r i b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s . D id t h e p o li c e e v e r a s k y o u w h e th e r y o u k n e w

about – knew in advance about any of that somebody from the Gupta
10

f a m ily m a y h a v e m a d e o r w a s t h e p o s i t io n t h a t t h e y a s k e d y o u a b o u t i t
a n d y o u s a i d th e r e w a s n o s u c h o f a t t h a t m e e t in g a n d th a t w a s t h e
end?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A t w h a t p o i n t w o u l d h a v e th a t b e e n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : E i t h e r a t t h e ti m e o f a r r e s t o r s u b s e q u e n tly b e f o r e t h e
charges were withdrawn.

I n o t h e r w o r d s d i d t h e y – w a s t h e p o s i t io n

t h a t t h e y – th e y a s k e d y o u t o c o n f ir m th a t t h e r e w a s a n o ff e r m a d e t o
M r J o n a s s u c h a s th e o n e t h a t h e g a v e e v i d e n c e a b o u t a n d y o u s a i d
t h e r e w a s n o s u c h o ff e r a n d t h a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h e ir e n q u ir y to y o u .
O r w a s th e r e m o r e d is c u s s io n to tr y a n d s e e w h e th e r y o u k n e w a n y th i n g
20

in a d v a n c e a b o u t a n y o ffe r t h a t w a s m a d e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : L ik e I h a d s a i d th e w h o l e p e r io d l e a d in g u p t o
– to t o d a y th e r e h a d n o t b e e n m u c h c o m m u n ic a t i o n t h a t h a s b e e n
p a s s e d [ in d i s ti n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : W e m a d e n u m e r o u s r e q u e s ts a n d s ti ll c o n t in u e

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t o m a k e n u m e r o u s r e q u e s ts t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e l a w e n f o r c e m e n t a g e n c ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : To th e N PA g u y s . W h a t i s t h e s to r y ? W h a t is
t h e s i tu a ti o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I f t h e r e is a n y th in g p le a s e l e t u s k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
in f o r m a ti o n y o u n e e d .

W e w il l c o m p ly.

W e w i ll g iv e y o u w h a t e v e r

I f t h e r e is a n y t h in g y o u i n v e s t ig a ti n g b e c a u s e

t h e r e i s a lo t o f s t u ff b e i n g t h r o w n a r o u n d a n d i n th e p u b lic d o m a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

We are here.

W e u n d e r s t a n d t h a t is w h a t i s

b e i n g s a i d is t h e r e a n y t h i n g y o u n e e d fr o m u s .

S o e v e n u p u n t il th a t

p o i n t t h e r e w a s n o q u e s ti o n i n g t h e r e w a s n o in t e r a c ti o n o f a n y s o r t . A s
a m a tt e r o f f a c t w e w e r e a s k i n g t h e m p r i o r t o t h e a r r e s t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

W h a t i s t h e i s s u e c a n w e a s s is t?

D u r in g th e

a r r e s t w h a t is t h e c h a r g e ? W e w e r e n o t g i v e n t h a t i n f o r m a t i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O n l y a f te r t h e a r r e s t w e m a n a g e d to g e t s ig h t
o f – b e c a u s e o b v io u s ly t h e y n e e d e d t o p r e s e n t c h a r g e s h e e ts a n d
w a r r a n ts a n d t h a t s o r t o f t h in g a n d th a t i s w h y n o w I h a v e d e c i d e d t o
t a k e th e s te p s t h a t I h a v e d e c i d e d t o t a k e b e c a u s e I r e a ll y w a n t t o

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
understand what the issues are.

Because I have not had that

o p p o r t u n i ty t o h a v e t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n . I d i d n o t h a v e th e o p p o r tu n i t y t o
b e q u e s ti o n e d . I t w a s j u s t a n e v e n t t h a t ju s t t o o k m e i n th e d ir e c t i o n
t h e y w a n t e d t o t a k e m e a n d i t e n d e d u p t h e w a y it d i d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

W e ll I a m a s k i n g t h is q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e i n h is

s t a te m e n t a n d i n h i s e v i d e n c e i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly M r J o n a s w a s v e r y
c le a r t h a t a t t h e m e e ti n g y o u a n d M r H l o n g w a n e y o u m i g h t n o t a g r e e
b u t h e w a s c l e a r t h a t y o u a n d M r H l o n g w a n e w e r e v e r y q u i e t. H e s a i d
t h e – y o u k n o w y o u r e a l ly d i d n o t ta k e a n y a c t iv e r o le i n t h is d is c u s s i o n
10

t h a t h e w a s h a v i n g w i th t h e m e m b e r o f t h e G u p t a f a m ily t h a t h e t a l k e d
a b o u t.

S o – s o I t h o u g h t t h a t m a y b e t h e r e m a y b e s o m e t h in g t h a t i n

t e r m s o f q u e s ti o n i n g th a t m a y h a v e c o m e u p . B u t i t is f i n e . B e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s s io n w e h a v e h e a r d p e r s o n s w h o h a v e b e e n a r r e s te d a n d
c h a r g e d i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e th e y h a v e c o m p l a i n e d th a t t h e y w e r e
b e i n g c h a r g e d i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e t h e r e w a s r e a l ly n o c a s e a g a i n s t
t h e m a n d c h a r g e s w e r e la t e r w i t h d r a w n . A n d I h a v e s a id t h a t I w a n t to
see

what

i n f o r m a ti o n

the

p o l ic e

had

and

what

i n f o r m a ti o n

the

p r o s e c u t o r s h a d o n th e b a s is fo r w h ic h t h e y c h a r g e d t h o s e p e o p l e .
B e c a u s e i t d o e s n o t m a t t e r w h o y o u a r e . I f t h e p o lic e h a v e g o t p r o p e r
20

evidence and proper grounds to arrest you and the prosecutors have
g o t p r o p e r g r o u n d s a n d p r o p e r e v i d e n c e t o c h a r g e y o u th e y s h o u l d
c h a r g e y o u . B u t e q u a ll y I t d o e s n o t m a tt e r w h o y o u a r e i f t h e y d o n o t
h a v e e v id e n c e a n d p r o p e r g r o u n d s t o a r r e s t o r t o c h a r g e th e y s h o u l d
n o t c h a r g e . S o it i s i m p o r t a n t t h a t t h e p o li c e u s e t h e ir p o w e r s p r o p e r l y.
N o w I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r in y o u r c a s e o r i n t h e c a s e o f th e o t h e r s

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t h a t I h a v e ta lk e d a b o u t w h o h a v e c o m e b e fo r e th e c o m m i s s io n w h e th e r
it w a s a b u s e o r n o t a b u s e . B u t i t is i m p o r t a n t t o s i m p ly s a y I w a n t t o
s e e a l l o f t h a t . S o i n w h a t I w a n t to s e e i t w i ll i n c l u d e y o u r s in t h e li g h t
o f M r J o n a s ’ e v id e n c e t h a t y o u w e r e v e r y q u ie t a t t h a t m e e ti n g .

Yo u

a n d Mr H l o n g w a n e . It m a y w e ll b e t h a t t h e r e w e r e p r o p e r g r o u n d s a n d
it m a y w e l l b e t h a t e v e n i f th e r e w e r e n o p r o p e r g r o u n d s i t w a s j u s t
h o n e s t y o u k n o w e x e r c is e o f p o w e r I d o n o t k n o w.

B u t I j u s t w a n t to

m e n ti o n t h a t I w i ll w a n t to s e e e v e r y t h i n g . I t h i n k t h a t is t h e e n d o f my
c la r i fi c a t o r y q u e s t io n s th a t I h a d .
10

I s e e y o u r c o u n s e l w a n ts t o s a y

something.
A D V P I E T L O U W : M r C h a ir y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : I ju s t s o m e t h i n g fr o m o u r s id e n o t fr o m th e w i t n e s s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV PIET LOUW:

Mr J o u b e r t w h o s i ts n e x t t o m e – a p o lo g i s e – w a s

t h e c o u n s e l w h o r e p r e s e n t e d Mr Z u m a a t t h e t i m e o f h i s a r r e s t a n d
m e r e ly t o – fr o m t h e b a r j u s t t o in f o r m y o u t h a t M r Z u m a w a s n e v e r
a s k e d f o r a s t a t e m e n t , h e d id n o t e v e r m a k e a w a r n i n g s t a t e m e n t .
T h e r e w a s n o a t te m p t t o il lic i t f u r t h e r in f o r ma t io n o r e v id e n c e fr o m M r
20

Z u m a . H e w a s m e r e ly a r r e s t e d u n d e r th e A c t th a t I r e a d o u t e a r l i e r T h e
P r e v e n ti o n o n – A n d C o m b a t t in g o f C o r r u p t A c ti v i ti e s A c t o f 2 0 0 4 a n d
t h e P r e v e n ti o n O f O r g a n is a ti o n C r i m e A c t o f 1 9 9 8 .
acronyms of PRECA and POCA.

They go by the

T h e c h a r g e i n s o fa r – n o c h a r g e w a s

e v e r p u t b u t th e r e a s o n f o r t h e a r r e s t is t h a t M r Zu m a w a s a p p a r e n t ly
p r e s e n t w h e n a b r i b e w a s o ff e r e d to Mr J o n a s a n d h e d i d n o t m a k e a

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r e p o r t a b o u t t h a t . I t i s a r e p o r t [i n d i s t i n c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o t h a t is – i t is
CHAIRPERSON: The basis.
A D V P I E T L O U W : I t i s t h is i n a c ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Th a t I u n d e r s ta n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P I E T L O U W : W a s w h a t th e p o l ic e w e r e a f t e r. Th e s u p r e m e ir o n y
10

o f c o u r s e b e i n g t h a t Mr J o n a s h i m s e l f d id n o t m a k e s u c h a r e p o r t a n d
u n t il t o d a y h a s r e f u s e d to c o o p e r a t e w i t h t h e p o l ic e o n t h a t p o in t . Th a t
m e r e ly i n s o fa r a s t h a t is s u e is c o n c e r n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV PIET LOUW:

W i t h y o u r l e a v e m a y I a s k th e w i t n e s s o n e fi n a l

q u e s t io n ? I t i s – it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t c o n c e r n s y o u M r C h a i r m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d i t w o u ld h a v e c o n c e r n e d m e a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d p e r h a p s I c a n j u s t a s k t h e w i t n e s s a q u e s ti o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Okay just one.
ADV PIET LOUW: Just one.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Mr Zu m a t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e . C a n I a s k y o u th is ?
Is i t th e s a m e a s a n y o t h e r o r d i n a r y r e s id e n c e ? W o u l d y o u b e a b le to
g o f iv e h o u s e s d o w n t h e l in e in t h e s a m e s tr e e t i n S a x o n w o ld a n d w a lk

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
in a n d h a v e a m e e t in g ? O r i s th e r e a n y t h i n g s p e c i a l ? Is th e h o u s e , t h e
r e s id e n c e , th e a r e a w h e r e y o u – w h e r e y o u m e t w i t h M r H l o n g w a n e a n d
M r J o n a s d i ff e r e n t fr o m o r d in a r y h o u s e s o r is i t j u s t a n o t h e r s i t ti n g
r o o m , lo u n g e a r e a t h a t o f w h ic h t h e r e a r e p r o b a b ly m i ll i o n s i n
Johannesburg?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I f th e r e a r e p r o b a b ly m i ll io n s i n J o h a n n e s b u r g
t h a t s h o u l d m a k e it th e m il li o n a n d f ir s t o n e s o i t is ju s t l ik e a n y o t h e r
r e s id e n c e .
ADV PIET LOUW: Were there any …
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Normal lounge –
CHAIRPERSON:

I s t h a t a s e c o n d q u e s t io n n o w.

I granted you

p e r m is s io n fo r o n e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : J u s t to c l a r i fy C h a ir. I t is l ik e a n y o th e r – a n y
o th e r r e s id e n c e t h e r e is n o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o th i n g s p e c ia l .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Nothing special because this – just…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : J a th e r e is a l o u n g e a n o r m a l l o u n g e .
A D V P I E T L O U W : Th a n k y o u Mr C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . I a m h o p i n g y o u
are not asking for one more.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o q u e s ti o n s . N o q u e s t i o n s a t a ll C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h Mr Zu m a fo r c o m i n g t o

g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d s h a r e w i t h t h e c o m m i s s i o n w h a t y o u k n o w. As I s a i d
e a r l ie r a n d t h e r e m a y – th e r e w i ll b e f u r t h e r d is c u s s i o n b e tw e e n t h e

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
c o m m i s s io n ’s l e g a l t e a m a n d y o u r l e g a l t e a m a n d i n t e r m s o f t h a t t h e r e
m a y b e a n e e d f o r y o u to c o m e b a c k . I t ju s t d e p e n d s o n t h e o u tc o m e o f
t h e d is c u s s i o n s th a t w i ll t a k e p la c e .

B u t th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r

c o m i n g t o g iv e e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

C h a ir th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r h a v i n g m e . I t i s a n

h o n o u r, a p r iv i l e g e a n d a p le a s u r e t o b e h e r e .

I appreciate your

f a ir n e s s a n d t h a n k y o u fo r g iv in g m e a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o p u t m y s id e o f
t h e s t o r y a c r o s s . Th a n k y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

No thank you very much and you are now excused.

Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M y c o l le a g u e s a r e h e r e r e a d y a n d e a g e r
t o p r o c e e d w i t h th e n e x t b u s i n e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h th e o t h e r w i t n e s s th e n e x t w i t n e s s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC:

B u t w e – i f w e m a y a ffo r d th e m m a y b e

t e n o r fi f te e n m in u t e s a d jo u r n m e n t f o r t h e m t o b e a b l e t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P r o p e r ly y o u k n o w p l a c e t h e m s e lv e s .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y w e a r e a t t h ir t e e n mi n u te s p a s t tw e lv e .

If we

s t a r t a t t w e n ty fi v e p a s t t w e l v e w i ll t h a t d o ? Th e y s a y i t s h o u l d b e f in e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is f in e . S h o u ld b e f in e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e w il l a d j o u r n th e n a n d r e s u m e a t t w e n t y fiv e p a s t

t w e lv e . W e a d j o u r n .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d a f t e r n o o n Ms G c a b a s h e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : G o o d a f te r n o o n C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . I a m C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

C h a ir m a n th is w i tn e s s - t h e e v i d e n c e o f

t h is w i t n e s s is l a r g e ly o f a - a t e c h n i c a ll y n a tu r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S h e w il l b e e x p l a i n i n g h o w c o n d it i o n a l

g r a n ts t h a t w e r e a d m i n i s t e r e d fr o m h e r o ffi c e w e r e in t e n d e d t o - t o b e
u s e d i n p a r t ic u l a r i n - w i t h i n t h e c o n te x t o f th e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m
P r o je c t. H e r a ffi d a v it C h a i r m a n i s c o n ta i n e d i n E X H I B I T H H 1 4 . M i g h t
t h is e x h i b it b e a d m i tt e d i n to t h e r e c o r d o f e v i d e n c e C h a ir m a n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e fi le c o n t a i n i n g t h e a ffi d a v i t o f M s E ld e r M t s h iz a i s
to be marked EXHIBIT HH14.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE
20

SC:

Thank

you

C h a ir m a n .

In

a d d i t io n

C h a ir m a n t h e r e a r e o n e o r tw o o t h e r d o c u m e n t s w e w o u l d l ik e t o a s k
t h e C h a ir m a n t o a d m i t i n to t h e r e c o r d o f e v i d e n c e .

T h e fi r s t i s t h e

E X H I B I T R e f e r e n c e B u n d le E . S o w e h a v e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e s C h a ir m a n
fr o m A to F. A t t h e l a s t h e a r in g o r t h e l a s t b u t o n e h e a r i n g w e w e r e n o t
s u r e w h e t h e r r e fe r e n c e B u n d l e E h a d in f a c t b e e n a d m i tt e d in t o
evidence.

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W e w ill n o t b e u s i n g i t to d a y b u t i t i s r e a ll y j u s t th e t e c h n ic a l
p r o c e d u r e o f e n s u r in g t h a t y o u h a v e f o r m a lly a d m i t te d E X H I B I T H H
R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e E in t o e v i d e n c e C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e f il e c o n t a i n i n g a t p a g e 1 - 4 - 8 8 a m e m o r a n d u m

a d d r e s s e d t o t h e A c t in g S E M A s s e t a n d L i a b il i ty M a n a g e m e n t f r o m t h e
S e n i o r M a n a g e r P u b lic Fi n a n c e d a t e d 1 9 J u n e 2 0 1 2 w i ll b e m a r k e d
E X H I B I T H H R e f e r e n c e B u n d le E .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e n t h e r e is

a l e g is l a t i o n

bundle

C h a ir m a n . S o i t i s E X H I B I T H H L e g is la t io n B u n d l e C . T h a t t o o w e a s k
y o u t o a d m i t i n t o - t o e v i d e n c e C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H u h - u h . Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t h e r e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

After

t h a t th e r e

w i ll b e

one

more

C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o j u s t f o r e v e r y o n e ’s in f o r m a ti o n w e a r e n o w b a c k i n
E s ti n a ?
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e a r e b a c k i n Es t in a C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u s a y t h i s h a s n o t b e e n a d m i tt e d b e f o r e ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t h a s n o t C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e - w e l l s h o u ld t h e r e n o t - s h o u l d t h e r e n o t b e
s o m e t h i n g t h a t is w r i tt e n o n t h e s p in e th a t i n d i c a t e s t h a t it is a
le g i s l a ti o n b u n d le r e la t in g t o Es t in a b e c a u s e I th in k w e h a v e g o t o t h e r

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le g i s l a ti o n b u n d le s i n o t h e r …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e - w e c a n d o t h a t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . Yo u - y o u th in k j u s t …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: We thought the …
CHAIRPERSON: HH is enough?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H H d e s c r i p ti o n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W o u ld s u ff ic e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B e c a u s e w e h a v e a l e g is l a t i o n b u n d l e A …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And B. We …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e s i m p ly a d d i t to it a n d c r e a t e d a C .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Th e fil e - l e v e r a r c h fi le c o n t a in in g th e

A p p r o p r i a ti o n B i ll fo r t h e Fr e e S t a t e Pr o v in c e w i ll b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T
H H L e g is la t io n B u n d l e C .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
20

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
records.

Th e l a s t o n e C h a ir m a n r e l a t e s t o c o u r t

Yo u h a d r e q u e s t e d t h a t w e t r y a n d g iv e y o u ju s t a s a

r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o u r t r e c o r d s th a t h a v e p r e c e d e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e e s ta b lis h m e n t o f th is C o m m is s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th e r e a r e t w o t h a t w e h a v e a d d e d t o t h e
c o u r t r e c o r d b u n d l e C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o i t w il l b e E X H I B I T H H C o u r t R e c o r d s C
a n d D t h a t w e a s k to b e a d m i t te d i n t o t h e r e c o r d o f e v i d e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a in in g c o u r t r e c o r d s i n r e g a r d
t o C a s e N u m b e r 1 6 8 / 2 0 1 8 in th e Fr e e S t a t e H ig h C o u r t b e tw e e n o r
10

in v o lv i n g t h e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u ti o n s a s A p p lic a n t w il l
b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T H H C o u r t R e c o r d s - I th o u g h t y o u s a i d A a n d B .
T h i s is C a n d D . It is m e a n t t o b e C a n d D .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I t is - i t is m e a n t t o b e C C h a i r m a n a n d D
C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. I t w il l b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T H H C o u r t R e c o r d s C
a n d t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n ta in i n g c o u r t p a p e r s in t h e m a t te r o f t h e B a n k
o f B a r o d a c a s e n u m b e r 1 6 8 / 2 0 1 8 i n th e H ig h C o u r t - i n t h e F r e e S t a te
H i g h C o u r t t h a t i s th e m a t t e r o f - b e t w e e n t h e B a n k o f B a r o d a a s
A p p l ic a n t a n d th e N a ti o n a l D ir e c t o r o f P u b l ic P r o s e c u t i o n s a s F ir s t

20

R e s p o n d e n t a n d O th e r s w ill b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T H H C o u r t R e c o r d s D .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. W e a r e in d e b t e d to y o u
f o r a d m i t ti n g t h e s e a t th is p o i n t in t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n I t h i n k th e w i tn e s s is r e a d y t o

be sworn in.

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : E l d e r M ts h i z a .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
10

tr u th , th e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th in g b u t t h e t r u th ? I f s o p le a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA: So help me God.
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : ( d u l y s w or n , s t a t e s )
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n . Ms M t s h iz a I w o u l d
lik e y o u j u s t t o r a is e y o u r v o i c e a li t tl e .

M a y b e p u l l t h e m ic a li t tl e

c lo s e r a s w e ll s o t h a t y o u a r e a u d i b l e . T h a n k y o u . Yo u w i ll f in d t o y o u r
le f t a n u m b e r o f f il e s a n d d o c u m e n ts a n d t h e - t h e l it t le o n e o n y o u r
t a b le

w h ic h

is

marked

EXHIBIT

HH14

are

r e le v a n t

fo r

t o d a y ’s

proceedings.
20

I n f a c t i f I c a n q u a l if y t h a t s ta t e m e n t .

So HH14 which has

y o u r s t a t e m e n t i s r e l e v a n t f o r t o d a y ’s p r o c e e d in g s a n d I b e l i e v e w e w i ll
o n ly n e e d R e f e r e n c e B u n d l e s B - s m a l l b a n d F.
h a v e p u t t h e m o n y o u r ta b l e f o r y o u m a ’ a m .
fi le s t h a t a r e o n y o u r ta b le .

Th e y m a y a lr e a d y

H a v e a lo o k a t t h e t w o

W e n e e d R e fe r e n c e B u n d l e b a n d F f o r

t o d a y ’s p u r p o s e s w i t h - if a l l g o e s w e l l w e s h o u l d n o t h a v e t o r e f e r t o

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
a n y o f th e o th e r s . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
I f y o u t h e n g o t o y o u r a ff id a v i t w h ic h a r e c o n t a i n e d i n
E X H I B I T H H 1 4 a n d t u r n t o p a g e 1 t h e r e o f . I k n o w w e h a v e d is c u s s e d
t h e s m a ll a m e n d m e n t y o u w o u ld l ik e t o m a k e t o w h a t is w r i t te n i n t h e
tr a m li n e s a t t h e t o p . C o u ld y o u p l e a s e d o t h a t ?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s C h a ir. I w o u l d l ik e t o r e m o v e t h e s w o r n o n
t h e a ffi d a v i t a n d i t r e m a in s j u s t a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e j u s t r a i s e y o u r v o ic e a g a i n . I d i d n o t h e a r.
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : I a m s a y i n g t h e - i t i s w r i tt e n s w o r n a ffi d a v it . I
10

w o u ld lik e to r e m o v e t h e s w o r n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o th a t i s f i n e , b u t l e t m e s e e . O h . J a th a t i s that is - ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t - is t h a t a l l?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t w a s i t C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . C e r t a i n ly. I t w a s b e c a u s e w e k n o w

20

t h e p o s i t io n y o u a lw a y s t a k e o n t h is a n d it is s l i p p e d t h r o u g h …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . N o t h a t is fi n e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h is t i m e b u t w e t h o u g h t i f w e c o r r e c t it a t
the outset …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u w o u l d b e a s a t is fi e d c u s to m e r …

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And know that we do pay attention.
CHAIRPERSON:

I g u e s s t h a t - I g u e s s t h a t i t c a n o n ly m e a n i t is

double sworn.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h i s i s w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d t o u s C h a ir m a n
a n d r e a ll y a p o l o g i e s . I t s li p p e d t h r o u g h t h i s ti m e a g a i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y, a lr i g h t .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M s M ts h i z a i f y o u t h e n l o o k a t p a g i n a t e d

p a g e 1 a n d c o n fi r m w h o s e n a m e is o n - r e fl e c t e d ju s t b e l o w th e “ I , t h e
10

u n d e r s ig n e d ”?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : I t i s E l d e r M ts h i z a . T h a t is m y n a m e C h a ir.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n i f y o u g o t o - t u r n to
page 2.

C o u ld y o u c o n f ir m t h e s ig n a tu r e - w h o s e s ig n a t u r e t h a t is

a b o v e th e w o r d “ d e p o n e n t ” ?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : T h a t is m y s ig n a tu r e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d c a n y o u c o n fir m t o th e C h a ir m a n

w h e r e a n d w h e n y o u d e p o s e d t o th is a ffi d a v i t?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA: It was in Pretoria on 1 October 2019.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u c o n fi r m t h is is y o u r a ff i d a v i t ?
20

M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s m a ’a m .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n y o u v e r y b r i e fly - I k n o w y o u h a v e s e t
t h is o u t in p a r a g r a p h s 3 a n d fo u r - t e l l t h e C h a ir m a n w h a t th is
p a r t ic u l a r - t h e c o n te n t o f t h i s a ffi d a v i t r e p r e s e n t s ?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

M a y b e b e fo r e th a t Ms G c a b a s h e .

Page 75 of 163

I - I just want to

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s a y I d id r e a d th e a ffi d a v i t .

I t h i n k t h a t m o s t o f t h e t h in g s t h a t s h e

d e a ls w i t h a r e u n li k e ly t o b e c o n t r o v e r s i a l i n t e r m s o f f r a m e w o r k a n d
p o li c i e s . Th e r e m a y b e s o m e w h e r e i n t e r m s o f w h a t a c tu a lly h a p p e n e d
t h a t m a y b e - m a y b e - m i g h t b e d is p u t e d .
I a m n o t s u r e b u t y o u - y o u a r e m u c h c l o s e r to th e a ff id a v i t
b u t I j u s t m e n ti o n th is t o s a y I - I d o n o t m i n d i f y o u m o v e f a s t in r e g a r d
t o t h o s e a r e a s w h ic h a r e u n li k e ly t o b e d is p u t e d b y a n y b o d y. J a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A s y o u p l e a s e C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W e w ill d o t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n , w e - t h e r e a r e t w o a ffi d a v i ts .

S o w e w i ll ju s t c o m p l e te w h a t i s i n t h e fir s t a ffi d a v i t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d I t h i n k y o u r c o m m e n ts r e a l ly …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Are …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

A r e m o s t a p p r o p r i a t e w i t h t h e s l i g h t ly

lo n g e r o n e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t w e w il l i n d e e d t r y a n d …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E x p e d it e th a t a s w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Ma’am if you could just very tell the - very
b r i e fl y t e l l t h e C h a i r m a n w h a t t h e fi r s t 2 0 1 9 a ffi d a v i t - w h a t th e p u r p o s e
o f t h i s is .
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s C h a ir. T h e p u r p o s e o f t h is a ff id a v i t is t h a t I
h a d p r e v i o u s ly p r o v i d e d a - a s w o r n a ffi d a v it to t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o l ic e
S e r v ic e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o t h e s w o r n a ffi d a v it c o m e s b a c k .
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : P r o v i d e d a n a ff id a v it …
CHAIRPERSON: No. That is fine.
10

M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : To t h e S o u t h A fr ic a n P o l ic e S e r v ic e a n d t h is w a s
in 2 0 1 7 a n d t h is is r e a l ly to s t a t e t h a t I s t il l s ta n d b y t h e c o n t e n ts o f
t h e 2 0 1 7 a ff i d a v i t w h ic h w a s is s u e d . T h a n k y o u .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u m a ’a m .

So if we then go to

p a g e 3 w il l y o u c o n f ir m a g a i n th a t t h i s a ffi d a v i t is y o u r a ff id a v i t? S o o n
p a g e 3 t h e r e is y o u r n a m e .
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s . It is m y a ff id a v i t.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d th e n …
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : E l d e r M ts h i z a .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I f w e t h e n g o a c r o s s to p a g e 8 - p a g in a t e d
20

p a g e 8 y o u c o n f ir m t h a t y o u a r e t h e d e p o n e n t ?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d c a n y o u t h e n c o n fir m t h e p l a c e a n d

d a t e o f t h is p a r ti c u la r a ff id a v i t?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : I t w a s s i g n e d i n Pr e to r i a o n 3 N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 7 .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E x c e l le n t . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . W e w i ll

Page 77 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
g o s t r a i g h t i n t o t h e 2 0 1 7 a ff id a v i t b e c a u s e t h a t is w h e r e t h e h e a r t o f o f t h e m a t t e r l ie s . P le a s e ju s t e x p la i n t o t h e C h a ir m a n w h e r e y o u a r e
c u r r e n tly e m p lo y e d ?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : I a m c u r r e n t ly e m p lo y e d i n t h e n o w D e p a r t m e n t
o f A g r ic u lt u r e L a n d R e f o r m a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t . A t t h e t i m e i t w a s
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e F o r e s t a n d F is h e r i e s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d w h a t p o s i t io n d o y o u o c c u p y in t h e

N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:
10

In t h e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t I a m th e Pr o g r a m

M a n a g e m e n t C o - O r d i n a t o r a t t h e l e v e l o f a C h i e f D ir e c t o r r e s p o n s i b l e
f o r t h e c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n ts - C A S P - w h ic h i s t h e C o m p r e h e n s i v e
A g r ic u l t u r a l S u p p o r t P r o g r a m a n d I li m a / L e t s e m a C o n d i t io n a l G r a n ts .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: How long have you been employed at the
d e p a r t m e n t a t w h ic h y o u w o r k ?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : I h a v e b e e n w i t h th e d e p a r t m e n t s i n c e 2 0 1 0 a n d
s in c e t h e n u n t il t o d a y I h a v e b e e n r e s p o n s i b l e fo r t h i s p o r t fo li o .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o u l d y o u v e r y b r i e fly j u s t e x p l a i n t o t h e
C h a ir m a n w h a t t h o s e - I w i ll u s e t h e a c r o n y m - C A S P C o n d i ti o n a l
G r a n ts a r e ? W h a t i s t h e e s s e n c e o f t h a t?

20

MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s .

T h e C A S P C o n d i t io n a l G r a n t is a g r a n t

w h ic h is g o v e r n e d b y t h e D i v is i o n o f R e v e n u e A c t . A t t h e t i m e o f t h e
f u n d i n g t o t h e Vr e d e D a ir y i t w a s a S c h e d u l e 4 C o n d i ti o n a l G r a n t w h ic h
m e a n t i t w a s m e a n t t o s u p p l e m e n t e q u i t a b l e s h a r e i n s u p p o r t in g
f a r m e r s b o t h s m a ll h o l d e r a n d s u b s is te n c e i n p a r ti c u l a r a n d i t is m a i n l y
f o r s u p p o r t t o B la c k p r o d u c e r s .

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
J u s t t o e n a b l e t h e m t o i n c r e a s e t h e i r p r o d u c t io n to a ll o w t h e m
w i t h a c q u is i ti o n o f i n fr a s tr u c tu r e .

To s u p p o r t t h e m w i th t r a i n i n g ,

c a p a c i ty b u il d i n g , s u p p o r t th e m w i t h m a r k e t a c c e s s a s w e ll a s b u s in e s s
development.

Th e Ili m a / L e ts e m a C o n d i ti o n a l G r a n t is a S c h e d u l e 5

w h ic h w a s a s p e c i a l p u r p o s e c o n d it i o n a l g r a n t a i m e d a t i n c r e a s i n g f o o d
p r o d u c t io n .
M a in ly f o r y o u r h o u s e h o l d fo o d s e c u r i t y.

S o w e w o u ld

s u p p o r t y o u r h o u s e h o l d f o o d g a r d e n s . W e w o u l d d o f o o d m a s s i f ic a ti o n
in c o m m u n a l a r e a s b u t a ls o p r o v i d e in p u t s to s m a ll h o l d e r f a r m e r s w h o
10

h a v e r e c e i v e d i n fr a s tr u c t u r e s li k e y o u r p o u l tr y h o u s e s o r p i g g e r y
s tr u c t u r e s fr o m C A S P. T h e n y o u g iv e t h e m t h e fi r s t i n p u t s a s s t a r t- u p
in p u t s f o r e n a b l i n g o r s t a r ti n g u p p r o d u c ti o n o n th e i r f a r m s .
A ls o w i t h Il i m a /L e ts e m a y o u c o u l d a ls o i n v e s t i n u n l o c k in g
in fr a s tr u c t u r e li k e y o u r ir r i g a t io n s c h e m e s . S o t h o s e a r e m a i n l y g r a n t s
t h a t a r e a i m e d a t g iv i n g y o u r B l a c k p r o d u c e r s s o m e s u p p o r t t h a t w ill
e n a b l e t h e m o p p o r tu n i t y t o b e a b l e t o a c c e s s y o u r l o a n s b e c a u s e a t
t h is p o i n t in ti m e t h e y d o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e a d e q u a t e r e s o u r c e s o r
e n o u g h c a p i t a l t o a c t u a l ly a c c e s s lo a n s d ir e c tl y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I s e e y o u h a v e m e n ti o n e d Bl a c k p r o d u c e r s

20

a n u m b e r o f t i m e s . I s t h a t o n e o f th e - th e e s s e n t i a l c r i te r i a …
MS ELDER MTSHIZA: The …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: For the …
MS ELDER MTSHIZA: The programs …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Grant?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : A r e m a in ly m e a n t f o r B la c k p r o d u c e r s C h a ir.

Page 79 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s a n d y o u h a v e a l s o m e n t io n e d t h a t

t h e s e g r a n ts a r e f r o m D O R A , b u t c a n y o u e x p l a in th e r e la t io n s h ip
b e t w e e n y o u r a d m i n i s t r a t io n o f t h e g r a n t a n d N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y ?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s . N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y C h a i r i s t h e - th e b o d y
that

governs

the

D iv is i o n

of

Revenue

Ac t

and

th a t

has

also

a p p r o p r i a t e d f u n d s w h ic h w e th e n d i s t r i b u t e to p r o v i n c e s t h a t h a s b e e n
a p p r o p r i a t e d fo r D iv is io n o f R e v e n u e A c t . S o a s a - a s is g iv e n w i t h i n
t h e D i v is i o n o f R e v e n u e Ac t b o t h N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y h a v e p o w e r s t o
r e l e a s e a s w e l l a s t o w i t h h o ld w h e r e t h e r e a r e c o n c e r n s .
T h e s a m e w a y a s t h e tr a n s f e r r i n g o f ( in d i s t in c t ) w h ic h i n th is

10

c a s e w a s a d e l e g a t e d f u n c ti o n o r is a d e l e g a t e d f u n c t i o n to m y s e l f h a s
t h e p o w e r s t o r e le a s e o r t o w i t h h o ld th e - th e f u n d s t h a t h a s b e e n
d is b u r s e d i f t h e r e is a n y n o n - c o m p li a n c e o r a n y v io l a t i o n to l e g i s l a ti o n
o r n o n - c o m p li a n c e t o th e fr a m e w o r k t h a t h a s b e e n is s u e d .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w t h e g r a n t is - is a p p l i e d f o r a n d g iv e n
t o t h e p r o v i n c i a l d e p a r t m e n ts . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s m a ’a m .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u d o n o t g i v e t h e g r a n t t o i m p l e m e n t in g
a g e n ts ?
20

MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

No.

Th e a ll o c a ti o n s a r e m a d e d ir e c tly to th e

P r o v i n c ia l D e p a r t m e n ts o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d t h e p r o c e s s f o r w h ic h t h e
f a r m e r s a r e a b l e t o a c c e s s th e s e g r a n ts is t h r o u g h th e a p p li c a t io n t o
t h e p r o v i n c e s . S o th e a p p l ic a ti o n w o u ld a l s o s ta r t a t lo c a l l e v e l . T h e r e
a r e c o m m i t t e e s t h a t w o u ld r e c e i v e t h o s e a p p lic a ti o n s fo r f a r m e r s t h a t
n e e d s u p p o r t a n d i f t h e y a r e i n l in e w i t h w h a t h a s b e e n p r io r i tis e d

Page 80 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
c o m m o d i ti e s

of

th a t

-

at

that

ti m e

and

they

are

ready

fo r

i m p l e m e n ta t io n .
Yo u w o u l d t h e n - th e l o c a l w o u ld p r e s e n t th e ir c a s e s t o
d is t r ic t a n d s o m e t i m e s i t is r e a ll y o n th e b a s i s o f li m i t e d r e s o u r c e s . S o
t h e d i s tr ic t w i ll t h e n s e le c t t h e o n e s t h a t t h e y w i ll w a n t t o p r e s e n t t o t h e
p r o v i n c i a l c o m m i t t e e a n d a t t h e p r o v i n c ia l c o m m i t t e e t h e y w o u l d h a v e
t o b e s i g n e d o ff b y t h e a c c o u n t in g a u t h o r i ty a n d c o n s o li d a te d in t o o n e
a p p lic a ti o n o f t h e p r o v in c e a g a in s t t h e b u d g e t t h a t h a s b e e n a l lo c a t e d
t o t h a t p r o v in c e b u t i t is n o t ju s t a g iv e n .
10

S o t h e p r o v in c e m u s t th e n c o m e a n d a c c o r d i n g t o t h e D iv i s i o n
o f R e v e n u e A c t th a t a p p l ic a ti o n n e e d s t o b e r e c e i v e d b y th e N a t io n a l
D e p a r t m e n t o n 3 0 S e p te m b e r. S o th e N a t io n a l D e p a r t m e n t w il l r e c e iv e
a l l a p p lic a ti o n s fr o m p r o v i n c e s a n d w e w i ll s c h e d u l e a m e e t in g o f t h e
N a t io n a l A s s e s s m e n t P a n e l . A f t e r t h e p e n a l b e c a u s e a p a n e l c o m p r is e s
o f a n u m b e r o f e x p e r ti s e w it h in t h e d e p a r t m e n t w h o n e e d to lo o k i n t o
t h e p l a n s o f t h e - o f t h e p r o v i n c e s w i t h i n e a c h p r o je c t .
S o w e w il l s c h e d u l e t h a t p a n e l m e e ti n g w i t h is th e N A P
m e e ti n g a n d th e p r o v i n c e s w il l t h e n b e i n v i t e d t o c o m e a n d p r e s e n t
e a c h o n e ’s c a s e i n t h a t .

20

S o w h e n w e r e c e i v e w e r e c e iv e a p la n o f a

p r o v i n c e w i th a ll th e p r o je c t s t h a t t h e y w a n t t o a c h i e v e a n d w h a t i m p a c t
t h o s e w o u l d - w o u l d a c h ie v e a n d t h e p a n e l w il l d e l ib e r a te a f t e r th e
p r o v i n c e h a s p r e s e n t e d a n d a d e c is i o n w i ll b e m a d e to s a y w e c a n
r e c o m m e n d t o th e D ir e c to r - G e n e r a l t h a t a b u s i n e s s p l a n f o r th is
p r o v i n c e s h o u ld b e a p p r o v e d o r n o t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Te l l - t e ll …

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MS ELDER MTSHIZA: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

P l e a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir m a n w h a t e x a c tly a

c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t is . I a m - I a m l o o k i n g a t th e o v e r s i g h t r o le y o u h a v e .
W h y c o n d i ti o n a l a n d a s y o u e x p l a i n e d th a t p l e a s e e x p l a i n th e o v e r s ig h t
r o l e th a t y o u p la y b e c a u s e i t is a c o n d it i o n a l g r a n t ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s .

T h e c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t C h a i r is t h a t y o u

c a n n o t u s e t h i s m o n e y f o r a n y t h in g e ls e b u t f o r w h a t i t w a s a p p r o v e d
f o r.

S o i n t h i s in s t a n c e w it h C A S P w e w o u l d a p p r o v e i t f o r

e s t a b li s h m e n t o f a n i n fr a s tr u c t u r e o n t h e fa r m e r ’s f a r m .
10

We would

a p p r o v e i t f o r p r o v id i n g t h a t f a r m e r w i th tr a i n i n g c a p a c i t y i n t e r m s o f
c o a c h i n g / m e n t o r s h ip .
W e w o u l d a p p r o v e t h a t g r a n t t o t h a t f a r m e r i f y o u a r e g o i n g to
a s s is t t h a t f a r m e r w i t h m a r k e t i n f r a s t r u c t u r e o r a l s o p o s t- h a r v e s t in fr a s e r v ic e s . S o t h e - y o u c a n n o t u s e i t f o r a n y o t h e r p u r p o s e th a t i t w a s
n o t in t e n d e d f o r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o u ld y o u j u s t c la r i fy o n e p o in t ? D o y o u
s i m p l y t h r o w m o n e y a t th e p r o v i n c e a n d w a s h y o u r h a n d s o f i t a n d j u s t
c h e c k o n h o w th e y a r e u s i n g i t o r i n - i n w h a t - i n t h e s e r v ic e s y o u
provide

20

do you

a c tu a lly

p h y s i c a ll y

also

a s s is t w i th

let us

say

in fr a s tr u c t u r e o r w i th m a r k e t in g s o m e o f t h e o t h e r m a t t e r s t h a t y o u
h a v e r a is e d ?
I - I j u s t w a n t to u n d e r s t a n d w h e th e r i t is j u s t t h e m a t t e r o f
g iv i n g m o n e y o r d o y o u a ls o d o o t h e r t h i n g s w i t h th e p r o v in c e s provinces?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

W e - a s I h a d i n d ic a t e d th e r e s p o n s ib il i ty t o

Page 82 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
i m p l e m e n t is t h a t o f t h e p r o v in c e .

S o w e w o u l d c o n fir m f ir s t th a t a

p r o v i n c e h a s t h e c a p a c i ty th a t t h e y n e e d a n d i f th e y d o n o t t h e n y o u
w i ll a v a il t h e r e s o u r c e s o r e x p e r tis e t h a t t h e y m a y n e e d f o r s u c h a
p r o j e c t to b e e x e c u t e d .
W e w i ll a ls o d o o v e r s i g h t v is it s o u r s e l v e s j u s t t o m o n i t o r
w h e t h e r t h e p l a n h a s - is b e i n g i m p l e m e n t e d a s w a s a p p r o v e d b y - b y
n a t io n a l .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a n k y o u . I a m r e a l ly j u s t g o in g th r o u g h
t h e s e e s s e n ti a l f e a t u r e s f a ir ly b r i e fl y.
10

Yo u a l s o h a v e s ta n d a r d

o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e s . Yo u s e t t h a t o u t in y o u r a ff i d a v i t .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA: Hm.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t a p p l ie s a c r o s s t h e b o a r d .

W e w i ll

d e a l w it h t h o s e in a l it t le m o r e d e t a il s li g h t ly f u r t h e r o n .
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t h i n k w h a t is i m p o r t a n t is t o - to a s s is t

t h e C h a ir m a n u n d e r s t a n d w h e t h e r th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d
R u r a l D e v e lo p m e n t F r e e S t a te m a d e a p r e s e n t a ti o n t o t h e N a ti o n a l
A s s e s s m e n t P a n e l a n d w h a t t h e n h a p p e n - h a p p e n e d in r e l a ti o n t o th a t .
This would have been in 2012.
20

MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s C h a ir.

W e r e c e i v e d t h e b u s i n e s s p la n o f

t h e p r o v in c e a s is e x p e c te d a n d o n e o f t h e p r o j e c ts w h ic h w e r e
p r e s e n t e d t o th e N A P i n c l u d e d t h e Vr e d e D a ir y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n f a c t c a n I m a k e a c o r r e c ti o n ? I t w o u l d
have been in - in 2013.
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s .

Page 83 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: I am at your paragraph 8.
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h is w a s d u r i n g t h e 3 0 t h t o 3 1 J a n u a r y - N A P

M e e ti n g o f t h e 3 0 t h t o 3 1 J a n u a r y w h e r e t h e f ir s t d a te m e a n s th a t
r e p r e s e n t a ti o n o f th e i r p la n a n d t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t i n p a r t ic u l a r to
the National Assessment Panel.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h o is th e C h a ir m a n o f th a t p a r ti c u l a r

panel?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : I a m th e C h a ir m a n o f t h e p a n e l .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d c a n y o u g iv e C h a ir m a n a - a s e n s e o f
10

t h e e x p e r tis e th a t r e s i d e s i n t h a t p a n e l ?
M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s C h a ir. In t h e p a n e l w e h a v e w a te r u s e a n d
ir r i g a ti o n e x p e r ts .

W e h a v e t h e a g r ic u lt u r a l e c o n o m is t .

a n i m a l s p e c ia lis t s , c r o p p r o d u c ti o n s p e c i a lis ts .

We have

W e d o fu n d e x t e n s i o n

s u p p o r t . S o w e h a v e c o ll e a g u e s f r o m e x t e n s i o n s e r v ic e s j u s t t o m a k e
s u r e th a t t h e p l a n s a r e i n l i n e w i t h th e e x te n s i o n p l a n fr a m e w o r k .
W e h a v e tr a i n i n g e x p e r t s fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t to l o o k a t t h e w h e t h e r t h e s k il ls a u d i ts w e r e d o n e f o r t h e f a r m e r s th a t n e e d s t o b e
tr a i n e d a s h a s b e e n r e q u e s t e d a n d lo o k d e e p e r i n to th e tr a i n i n g p l a n s
o f th o s e p r o v i n c e s .
20

W e a ls o h a v e m a r k e t c o ll e a g u e s w h o a r e

s p e c i a lis t s i n m a r k e t a s s e s s a n d a g r o p r o c e s s i n g w h o a r e s i t ti n g i n th e
panel.
S o e a c h m e m b e r o f t h e p a n e l w i th in e a c h p r o v i n c e w il l g o
in t o t h e ir c r i ti c a l n i c h e a n d e v a l u a t e o f t h e n i n e p r o v i n c e s a n d m a k e
c o m m e n t s in te r ms o f t h e - th e ir in p u ts t h a t t h e p r o v i n c e n e e d s t o l o o k
a t o r s a tis f y t h e ms e lv e s t h a t t h e p r o v i n c e h a d m e t t h e te c h n ic a l

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s t a n d a r d s t h a t is r e q u ir e d f o r t h a t p r o j e c t t o b e e x e c u t e d .

S u c h th a t

w h e n w e m a k e t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n t h a t t h e p la n s h o u l d b e a p p r o v e d .
M i n o r i s s u e s w h ic h w e c a n s ti ll f o ll o w th r o u g h a n d d o .

We

h a v e a h o l is ti c a g r e e m e n t i n te r ms o f t h e i r f o c u s . I t is i n li n e w i t h t h e
p o li c y i m p e r a ti v e s a n d t h e - a lr e a d y p r o g r e s s in t e r m s o f t h e t e c h n i c a l
s t a n d a r d s th a t a r e m e t . W e w o u ld a p p r o v e w i t h c e r ta in c o n d i ti o n s t h a t
w i ll n e e d t o b e m e t t o e n a b le t h e p r o v in c e t o s ta r t w i t h th e e x e c u t io n o f
- o f t h o s e p la n s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

Excellent.

C a n w e t h e n a s s u m e th a t

b e c a u s e t h e Pr o v in c i a l D e p a r t m e n t F r e e S t a te w a s g iv e n a C A S P
a l lo c a t io n th a t th e y m e t y o u r s t a n d a r d s o n a p p lic a ti o n f o r t h a t g r a n t ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s .

T h e - i n p a r ti c u la r o n th e Vr e d e D a ir y

C h a ir i t w a s o n e o f t h e b i g p r o j e c ts o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d t h e
c o n c e p t u a l is a t i o n w h ic h w a s c a p tu r e d i n t h e ir b u s i n e s s p la n w a s q u i t e
e x c i ti n g a n d w e w e r e q u i t e h a p p y w i t h w h a t w a s c o n t a i n e d in th e i r
p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s m a d e t o - to t h e N A P.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d a s y o u s a y i n y o u r p a r a g r a p h th e y

a ls o in d ic a t e d th a t t h e y a lr e a d y h a d a n in v e s t e d p a r t o f th e i r e q u i t a b l e
share …
20

M S E L D E R M T S H I Z A : Ye s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n t h e p r o je c t ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h e s t a n d a r d o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e e n c o u r a g e s

p r o v i n c e s t o l o o k fo r p r iv a t e in v e s t m e n t . To t h a t e ff e c t is t h a t w e a r e
q u i te a w a r e t h a t o u r r e s o u r c e s a r e li m i t e d a n d t o e x te n d o u r r e n t i t is
b e t t e r to b r i n g i n p r iv a t e p a r t n e r s to c o i n v e s t w i t h G o v e r n m e n t b u t

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
m a in ly f o r th e f u n d in g a n d s e c o n d ly fo r th e s k i ll w h i c h s h o u ld a ls o t h e n
b e d is tr i b u te d to o u r b e n e fic i a r i e s b u t a l s o s o m e o f o u r b e n e fi c i a r i e s
a r e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly a t th a t p o in t r e a d y t o p a r t ic i p a te a lo n g th e v a lu e
c h a i n i n th e s e c o n d a r y v a lu e c h a i n .
S o t h a t o n i t is - o n it i s o w n a ll o w s t h e m t o p a r t ic ip a t e a l o n g
t h e v a lu e c h a i n . S o it w a s q u it e e x c i ti n g t h a t t h e r e i s a lr e a d y a p a r t n e r
a n d a ls o t h e r e w a s a - a h ig h l e v e l e x e c u tiv e a p p r o v a l fr o m th e
p r o v i n c e w h i c h m e a n t t h e r e w o u ld d e fi n it e l y b e s o m e g u a r a n t e e i n
t e r m s o f e q u i t a b le s h a r e t o g e t h e r w it h o u r c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t s e n a b li n g
10

the development of that project.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir I n o t ic e th a t it is - i t is 1 o ’ c lo c k .

M a y b e w e c o u ld t a k e t h e l u n c h b r e a k n o w. I f y o u p r e f e r u s t o p u s h f o r
a n o t h e r 1 0 m in u t e s w e c a n d o th a t a s w e l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A r e y o u le f t w i t h 1 0 m in u t e s to fi n is h h e r …
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: No, no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r n o t r e a lly ? J u s t to f in is h t h e s t a te m e n t a n d t h e n
the annexures?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h e n e x t s e c t io n g o e s i n t o th e a c t u a l - th e
is s u e s t h a t a r o s e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . O k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : T h a t is t h e n e x t p o r t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e n m a y b e w e s h o u l d t a k e t h e a d jo u r n m e n t n o w a n d
t h e n r e s u m e a t t w o . W e w i ll tr y a s fa r a s w e c a n to f in is h b o th t o d a y ?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : D e fi n i t e l y C h a ir m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 86 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e a r e h a l f w a y th r o u g h t h is s t a t e m e n t

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

No.

T h a t i s fi n e .

W e w i ll ta k e th e l u n c h

a d j o u r n m e n t a n d w e w i ll r e s u m e a t 2 o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
10

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, l e t ’s u s c o n t in u e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Thank you DCJ.

Ma’am Mshiza are you

ready?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s I a m .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

We are now dealing with paragraph 9 to

p a r a g r a p h 1 5 o f y o u r 2 0 1 7 a ffi d a v i t a n d t h i s is t h e a r e a th a t r e a l ly
d e a ls w it h w h a t w e n t w r o n g .

N o w y o u h a v e t o ld u s a t p a r a g r a p h 9 t h a t

c e r t a i n c o n c e r n s w e r e r a is e d b y y o u r p a n e l , b y th e N A P, p le a s e t a k e
20

t h e C h a ir m a n t h r o u g h t h o s e c o n c e r n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

P l e a s e a r ti c u l a t e y o u r r e s p o n s e i f y o u ’r e n o t – t h a t ’s

n o t c a p t u r e i n t h e r e c o r d o k a y. I t h in k s h e a s k e d y o u a q u e s ti o n a n d
you nodded, you need to say what your response is.
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Ja.

Page 87 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

C a n I r e p e a t th e q u e s t io n C h a ir ?

R e p e a t th e q u e s t io n j a .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M a ’ a m in p a r a g r a p h 9 y o u e x p la in e d th a t

c e r t a i n c o n c e r n s w e r e r a is e d b y t h e p a n e l t h a t y o u C h a ir, is th a t
correct?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C o u l d y o u p l e a s e t a k e t h e C h a ir m a n

through those concerns?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
10

C h a ir a s I e x p l a i n e d w h e n t h e p la n is p r e s e n t e d

b y th e Pr o v i n c e a n d p r o j e c t o f t h is m a g n it u d e is p r e s e n t e d , a n d a s I
in d i c a t e d t h e p a n e l w a s q u i t e e x c i t e d a b o u t i t .

W e h a d a lr e a d y

r e c e i v e d a p r e s e n t a ti o n t h a t s a i d th e w o r k h a s a l r e a d y s t a r t e d i n t e r m s
o f c o n s tr u c ti o n s o t h e p a n e l j u s t w a n t e d t o c h e c k a ll t h e t e c h n ic a l
is s u e s t o s e e , w a s t h e d is a b il i ty c o n c l u d e d , w a s i t p o s i tiv e , is w a t e r
r ig h ts in p la c e a n d is t h e r e e n o u g h w a te r, h a s th e q u a li ty b e e n
c o n fir m e d a n d th e s e r e s p o n s e s w e r e r e s p o n d e d t o p o s i t iv e ly.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t i s w h e n y o u a s k e d th e m d u r i n g t h e

process?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
20

During the map process.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
MS ELD ER MSHIZA:

Ye s .

W e w e r e a l s o q u i t e e x c i t e d th a t th e p r o j e c t i s

g o i n g to b e n e f i t a h u n d r e d b e n e fi c i a r i e s a n d – b e c a u s e t h e P r o v i n c e
h a d a lr e a d y i n d ic a t e d t h a t s o m e w i ll b e m il k i n g .

W e a ls o w a n t e d to

u n d e r s t a n d t h e c o n t e n t a r o u n d t h e l o g is t i c a l a r r a n g e m e n t o f c o ll e c t in g
t h e m i lk a n d b r i n g i n g i t t o th e f a c i li t y. S o w e u n d e r s to o d t h a t t h e r e w il l

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
b e p r o d u c ti o n th a t h a p p e n s o ff s i t e in t h o s e f a r m e r ’s la n d s a s w e l l a s
w h a t i s h a p p e n i n g w i t h i n th e f a c i li ty b e c a u s e a ll t h a t d o c u m e n t a ti o n
w a s n o t w i th u s , w e th e n c o n c l u d e d b y s a y in g th a t w e n e e d t o b e
p r o v i d e d w i t h a lis t o f b e n e fi c i a r ie s a n d w e m u s t a ls o b e – t h e P r o v i n c e
m u s t k e e p r e c o r d s , lik e y o u r f e a s ib il i ty s t u d y, y o u r b u s in e s s p la n r e a d y
f o r a s a n d w h e n it ’s n e e d e d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n I ju s t p r o b e t h a t o n e a s p e c t , s o w h e n

t h e y c a m e t o s e e y o u a n d m a k e a p p lic a ti o n fo r th e C A S P G r a n t t h e y d i d
n o t h a v e t h e li s t o f b e n e f ic ia r i e s .
10

MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e y d i d n o t h a v e a f e a s i b ili t y s t u d y t h a t

they shared with you, they did not have a business plan that they
shared with you.
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d th e y d i d n o t h a v e – t h e y c o u l d n ’ t

g iv e y o u a n y in d i c a t io n th a t th e E I A’s h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d – t h o s e
a p p lic a ti o n s h a d b e e n c o n c l u d e d .
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

C h a ir th e d o c u m e n t a ti o n w a s n o t p a r t o f t h e

p r e s e n t a ti o n b u t a ll th e s e q u e s ti o n s w h i c h w e r e a s k e d b y t h e p a n e l ,
20

w e r e r e s p o n d e d t o p o s i ti v e ly. I r e m e m b e r w i t h th e w a t e r, t h e y h a d s a i d
t h e ir a p p li c a t io n w a s a l r e a d y d o n e w it h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f W a t e r
A ff a ir s .

S o w e w e r e c o m f o r t a b l e to le t it g o b e c a u s e in t e r m s o f t h e

t e c h n ic a l s t e p s th a t n e e d e d t o b e d o n e , th e P r o v i n c e h a d a c tu a l ly
in d i c a t e d t h a t t h e y h a d a lr e a d y s t a r t e d o r c o n c l u d e d s o m e o f t h e s e
p r o c e s s e s w h ic h i n c l u d e d c o m p le t io n o f t h e fe a s ib il i ty s tu d y w h ic h i s

Page 89 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
p o s i ti v e , t h e a p p lic a ti o n o f w a t e r r i g h t s w h ic h h a s a lr e a d y b e e n l o d g e d ,
the EIA which was concluded and so on.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s , th a n k y o u . O n t h e s tr e n g t h o f w h a t

t h e y s a id t o y o u , y o u w e r e th e n p r e p a r e d t o g i v e t h e m a g r a n t o f
R 5 3 m i ll io n ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s , w e th e n – th e P r o v i n c e c a m e r e q u e s ti n g f o r

R 5 3 m i ll io n fr o m C A S P a n d R 2 2 m i ll i o n fr o m [i n d is t in c t] a n d w e fe l t i f y o u
a p p r o v e R 7 5 m i ll io n n a ll a t o n c e it ’s a c t u a l ly to o h e a v y o f t h e i n t e n ti o n
o f t h e g r a n t s o w e o n l y a p p r o v e d t h e R 5 3 m il li o n th a t w e s a i d w e w i ll b e
10

a b l e t o r e c o m m e n d f o r a p p r o v a l t o th e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

R 5 3 M il li o n ?

MS ELDER MSHIZA:

R 5 3 m i ll i o n a n d w e t h e n d e c li n e d t h e R 2 2 m i ll io n

b e c a u s e i t w a s a c tu a lly g o in g to a ff e c t n e g a tiv e ly t h e d r iv e o f F e z a
G a l a p r o g r a m m e b e c a u s e th a t m o n e y w a s e a r m a r k f o r [ i n d is ti n c t ] w h i c h
is Fo o d M a s s i fic a ti o n a s I h a d in d ic a t e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th is p r e s e n ta t io n t h a t t h e Pr o v i n c e c a m e to m a k e t o

t h is p a n e l , a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a ff id a v i t t h a t ’s a p r e s e n t a ti o n a i m e d a t
c o m p ly i n g w i th t h e r e q u ir e m e n ts … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
20

CHAIRPERSON:

O f th e D iv is io n o f R e v e n u e A c t y e s .

Ye s a n d y o u r p a n e l w o u l d b e th e o n e t h a t w o u ld

a p p r o v e o r w o u l d g iv e c o m m e n t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
MS ELD ER MSHIZA:

T h a t w o u l d s a ti s f y i ts e l f t h a t w e c a n r e c o m m e n d

for approval.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s a n d t h e a c t u a l d e c i s i o n t o a p p r o v e w o u l d b e

made by whom?

Page 90 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

T h e a c t u a l d e c is io n f o r a p p r o v a l w o u ld b e m a d e

b y t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l .

S o w h e n t h e p a n e l c o n c l u d e s I w il l t h e n

d e v e l o p a s u b m is s io n a n d p u ll a ll t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n w i th t h e f in a l
n a t io n a l b u s i n e s s p l a n w h ic h I w o u ld h a v e c o m p il e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

MS ELDER MSHIZA:
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d p r e s e n t t o th e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l f o r a p p r o v a l .
Ye s b u t n o w y o u s a y t h a t , a s I u n d e r s ta n d th e

p o s i ti o n , t h e t e a m fr o m t h e P r o v i n c e t h a t m a d e t h i s p r e s e n ta t io n d i d n o t
b r i n g a lo n g c e r ta i n d o c u m e n ta t io n ?
10

MS ELDER MSHIZA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s C h a ir.

Was that normal?

MS ELDER MSHIZA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .
Was it normal that people can come for that

p r e s e n t a ti o n a n d l e a v e o u t w h a t m a y b e i m p o r t a n t d o c u m e n t s b e c a u s e I
w o u ld i m a g i n e t h a t t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n w o u ld b e a n i m p o r t a n t d o c u m e n t
a n d w a t e r r ig h ts d o c u m e n ts w o u l d b e i m p o r t a n t d o c u m e n t s ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s C h a ir l ik e I s a i d C A S P w a s a s c h e d u l e 4

c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t a t t h e t i m e w h i c h m e a n s i t w a s m e a n t t o s u p p l e m e n t
e q u it a b l e s h a r e s o th e Pr o v in c e ’s p l a n w h ic h is a p la n to d e v e l o p
20

f a r m e r s w o u ld th e n b e t h e o n e t h a t i s p r e s e n te d to th e p a n e l f o r
a p p r o v a l w h i c h w o u ld t h e n s i g n a l k e y p r o j e c ts w h ic h t h e n w o u l d b e
d r i v e n a n d f o r w h a t p u r p o s e w o u ld y o u r m o n e y n o w b e u s e d f o r a n d i n
t h is i n s t a n c e b e c a u s e t h is w a s a m e g a r e q u e s t o n o n e p r o j e c t , a l t h o u g h
it b e n e fi t e d a h u n d r e d b e n e fic i a r i e s a t t h e t i m e t h e ir te c h n ic a l e x p e r ts
w h ic h a r e th e m e m b e r s o f t h e p a n e l w o u l d th e n w a n t to d e l v e d e e p e r

Page 91 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
in t o u n d e r s ta n d i n g h o w f a r h a s th e p r o v in c e g o n e i n d e v e lo p in g th e
p l a n t o w a r d s i t ’s i m p l e m e n t a ti o n .

H e n c e w e r e q u e s t e d t h a t a ll th a t

d o c u m e n t a ti o n b e k e p t s a f e fo r a s a n d w h e n i t i s r e q u ir e d . W h a t w o u ld
t h e n f o l lo w C h a ir w o u l d b e a m o n it o r i n g v i s i t b y t h e d i ff e r e n t e x p e r ti s e
w h o w o u l d th e n e n g a g e w it h th e d o c u m e n t a t i o n w i t h t h e P r o v i n c e a n d
w h e r e th e r e ’s a n e e d f o r s tr e n g t h e n i n g o r p ic k i n g u p i s s u e s w e w i ll t h e n
do that.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l my e x p e c t a t i o n , a n d I t h o u g h t th a t ’s w h a t

e m e r g e s fr o m y o u r a ff id a v i t b u t y o u m u s t te ll m y if m y e x p e c t a t i o n
10

d o e s n ’t a c c o r d w i t h t h e p r o c e d u r e s a n d p r a c tic e s o f t h e – o r th e
prescripts of the Department.

M y e x p e c t a t i o n w o u ld b e th a t y o u r

c o m m i t t e e w o u l d n o t b e p r e p a r e d t o a p p r o v e th e g r a n t o f s o m u c h
m o n e y w i th o u t h a v i n g t h o s e i m p o r t a n t d o c u m e n t s b e i n g s h o w n t o t h e m
lo o k in g a t t h e m a n d ta k i n g a v ie w a b o u t t h e m , a m I m is ta k e n ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

C h a i r o n e w o u ld h a v e e x p e c te d t h a t w e p r o b a b l y

g o d e e p e r i n t o r e q u e s ti n g t h e a c tu a l d o c u m e n t a ti o n b u t i f y o u g o in t o
w h a t t h e s ta n d a r d o p e r a ti n g p r o c e d u r e a t t h a t ti m e w a s s a y i n g , i t – a s I
in d i c a t e d t h e i m p le m e n t a ti o n w a s w i t h t h e P r o v i n c e s o o u r s w a s t o
m a k e s u r e a n d s a tis f y o u r s e lv e s t h a t t h e y h a d g o n e t h r o u g h p r o p e r a n d
20

I t h in k i t w a s m o r e i n i t ia l tr u s t t h a t y o u k n o w t h a t t h e a c c o u n t in g o ffic e r
w h ic h is th e h e a d o f th e d e p a r t m e n t i s a ls o o b li g e d t o a b i d e

b y th e

p r e s c r i p t s o f t h e r e g u l a ti o n s t h a t g o v e r n e d t h a t a n d a t a p o i n t w h e r e
t h e ir r e s p o n s e t o th e q u e s ti o n s o f t h e y ’r e n o t f a v o u r a b l e r e s p o n d e d t o
o r y o u fe e l t h a t th e r e a r e g a p s th e n y o u r h o l d th e ir a p p r o v a l p r o c e s s
a n d t h e n g o a n d m a k e a f o ll o w th r o u g h b e c a u s e t h e s a m e t e c h n ic a l

Page 92 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
w i t h i n t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t a r e e x p e c te d t o b e p r e s e n t a t a
P r o v i n c ia l D e p a r t m e n t b u t s o m e o f t h e i m p r o v e m e n t s t h a t w e h a v e
m a d e t o t h e p r o g r a m m e i n p a r ti c u l a r, j u s t t o tr y a n d c l o s e t h e s e g a p s
b e c a u s e w e r e a lis e d t h a t – ju s t to g iv e y o u a n in d i c a t io n C h a ir, i n o n e
s i tt i n g th e p a n e l w o u l d b e r e c e i v i n g p r e s e n t a ti o n s fr o m a l l n i n e
provinces with about 1 500 projects that would be executed for the next
fi n a n c i a l y e a r.
S o y o u t h e n c h e c k w it h e a c h a n d e v e r y p r o v in c e , b r i n g in g i n ,
in t e r m s o f th e w o r k th a t t h e y h a v e d o n e a n d o n t h a t b a s is a p r o j e c t
10

g e t s a p p r o v e d a n d t h e n th e r e ’s f o l l o w th r o u g h , o v e r s i g h t t o c o n f ir m t h a t
w h a t h a s b e e n s a i d i s a c tu a l ly w h a t h a s h a p p e n e d a n d i s t h e p r o j e c t
e x e c u te d a s i s . S o it w a s m o r e r e a ll y a n is s u e o f c a p a c i ty b u t a ls o t o
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t w e a r e c o n c u r r e n t i m p le m e n t e r s h e r e . S o y o u d o y o u r
jo b , I d o m y j o b a n d I c o m e a n d s a y, h a v e y o u d o n e a l l t h a t y o u n e e d t o
h a v e d o n e a n d y o u w il l s a y, y e s I ’v e d o n e a l l w h a t I ’v e n e e d t o h a v e
done.

S o a s c o l l e a g u e s w e w il l t h e n a g r e e t h a t y o u h a v e d o n e w h a t

y o u n e e d t o d o a n d I h a v e c h e c k e d a n d c o n fir m e d w i t h y o u t h a t y o u
h a v e d o n e w h a t y o u n e e d to d o a n d I w o u l d r e c o r d i t a s s u c h a n d o n
t h e b a s is o f w h a t t h e r e c o r d t h e n w e t a k e i t fu r t h e r t o s a y, w e c a n
20

r e c o m m e n d t h a t th is is a p p r o v e d b e c a u s e it i s s t a te d t h a t – s o y o u
w o u ld a l w a y s s a y i t is s t a t e d th a t t h is a n d t h i s a n d t h is a n d th e n y o u
w i ll s c h e d u l e v i s i ts a n d th e n g o a n d v e r if y a l l t h a t i n f o r m a t io n .
S o t h e r e w i ll b e d i ff e r e n t te a m s n o w t h a t g o e s to a ll n i n e
p r o v i n c e s a n d m a k e s u r e th a t t h e p r o je c t s a r e v is i te d a n d c o n f ir m t h a t
t h e y m e e t t h e s t a n d a r d s a s h a s b e e n – u n l e s s t h e r e ’s a p r o b l e m w i t h

Page 93 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
o n e p a r t ic u l a r p r o v i n c e o r t h e y e x t e n d t h e q u a li ty o f t h e p r e s e n t a ti o n ,
it ’s s u c h t h a t t h e p r o v in c e – b e c a u s e t h e y w i ll b r i n g i n a s tr o n g
d e l e g a ti o n o f t h e ir e x p e r t is e t o e n g a g e w i t h t h e te c h n ic a l e x p e r t is e a t
[i n d is t in c t] .

S o t o a n e x t e n t t h a t t h e p r o v in c e h a d f a i le d t o c o n v i n c e

t h e p a n e l t h a t th e y a r e r e a d y, t h e n w e w o u ld n o t r e c o m m e n d fo r
a p p r o v a l a n d w e w o u l d s c h e d u l e a fo ll o w u p m e e ti n g w i t h i n t h a t
p r o v i n c e a n d b e f o r e t h a t m e e t i n g w e w o u ld s e n d t e a ms b e c a u s e w e ’ ll
n o w b e s i t ti n g w it h a li s t o f p r o je c ts th a t w e r e e a r m a r k e d f o r s u p p o r t
a n d o u r te c h n ic a l t e a m s w i ll j u s t g o a b o u t , s o t h a t b y t h e ti m e t h a t w e
10

s i t w i t h t h e p r o v i n c e w e n o w h a v e d e t a i l, h a v i n g b e e n o n s it e t o
u n d e r s t a n d w h a t th e i s s u e s a r e .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y b u t t h e lo n g a n d s h o r t o f w h a t y o u a r e t e l li n g

m e in r e g a r d to m y q u e s ti o n s e e m s t o b e t h a t i t w a s i n o r d e r a n d t h e r e
was

n o th in g

un-procedural

or

ir r e g u la r

if

th e

–

your

p a n e l . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] .
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
CHAIRPERSON:

H a d a p p r o v e d t h a t w i t h o u t d o c u m e n t a ti o n .

A p p r o v e d t h e k in d o f r e q u e s t th a t i t a p p r o v e d i n t h is

c a s e w i t h o u t s e e i n g t h e b u s i n e s s p l a n , w it h o u t s e e i n g w a t e r l ic e n s e s
a n d w it h o u t s e e in g , m a y b e o th e r d o c u m e n t s , is t h a t w h a t y o u a r e
20

s a y in g ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t’s w h a t I ’ m s a y i n g C h a ir.
Ye s a n d w a s t h e r e a d o c u m e n t , w h e t h e r i t’s

r e g u la t io n s , p o l ic y o r w h a t e v e r th a t s e t o u t w h a t t h is p a n e l m u s t s a t is fy
it s e l f a b o u t a n d w h a t i t s h o u l d h a v e b e f o r e i t b e f o r e a p p r o v i n g a t t h a t
ti m e ?

Page 94 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

A t t h a t t i m e w e h a d o n ly th e te r m s o f r e fe r e n c e

f o r t h e p a n e l a n d t h e g u i d i n g d o c u m e n ts w o u ld t h e n b e th e g r a n t
fr a m e w o r k s a s w e ll t h e D i v is i o n o f R e v e n u e A c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I n f a c t C h a ir, j u s t t o a s s i s t o n t h i s

p a r t ic u l a r p o i n t a c o u p l e o f i s s u e s m a y b e t h a t n e e d c l a r i fic a ti o n . O n e ,
y o u ’r e s a y i n g t h e r e w o u ld a l w a y s b e f o l l o w u p e n g a g e m e n t o r v is i t a f te r
t h a t a p p r o v a l /r e c o m m e n d a ti o n p h a s e ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
10

Ye s .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a t ’s t h e f ir s t th i n g y o u ’r e s a y i n g . T h e

s e c o n d t h i n g I u n d e r s ta n d y o u to b e s a y i n g is t h a t y o u h a v e i m p r o v e d
o n t h e s y s t e m s t h a t w e r e i n p la c e in 2 0 1 3 ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s C h a ir, s i m il a r ly a s I h a d in d ic a t e d th e C A S P

w a s a s c h e d u l e 4 c o n d i t io n a l g r a n t a n d w it h a s c h e d u le 4 i f y o u g o t o
t h e D iv is i o n o f R e v e n u e A c t , a p r o v i n c e n e e d n o t r e a ll y s u b m i t a
b u s i n e s s p la n , t h a t’s n o w i f y o u g o in t o w h a t a s c h e d u le 4 i s a l l a b o u t .
Yo u c a n c o m e a n d s a y w e h a v e a g r ic u l t u r a l p r o je c ts t o s u p p o r t a n d y o u
need not submit a business plan.

W h e r e a s a s c h e d u le 5 c o n d i t io n a l

g r a n t r e q u i r e s t h a t y o u m u s t s u b m it a b u s in e s s p l a n . W e t h e n m o v e d 20

b e c a u s e s o m e o f th e l e a r n i n g s o f t h e p a s t e n a b l e s y o u t o i m p r o v e , w e
a p p r o a c h e d N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d w e h a v e s i n c e c h a n g e d th e i r
s c h e d u l e f o r c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t C A S P.

S o C A S P is n o w a s c h e d u le 5

c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t s o i t i s n o w m a n d a t o r y f o r s u c h d o c u m e n t a ti o n t o b e
presented.
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Page 95 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
CHAIRPERSON:

To t h e N a ti o n a l D e p a r t m e n t .

O k a y n o t h a t ’s fi n e .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir, c a n I a ls o ju s t p o in t y o u

t o t h e C A S P f u n d i n g a g r e e m e n t o f 2 0 1 3 / 2 0 1 4 a n d t h i s y o u w i ll fi n d in
r e fe r e n c e b u n d le F f o r F r e d d i e , i f y o u g o to p a g e 2 0 6 6 to w a r d s t h e
b a c k , th e r e a r e s tic k e r s a t t h e t o p s o th e r e i s o n e t h a t is w r i tt e n 1 2 5
it ’s r i g h t to w a r d s t h e e n d a n d t h a t ’s w h e r e y o u ’ ll f i n d p a g e 2 0 6 6 , s o i t ’s
r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e F f o r Fr e d d i e p a g e 2 0 6 6 , h a v e y o u fo u n d i t m a ’ a m ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
10

I h a v e r e fe r e n c e b u n d l e F.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

O n t h e to p r i g h t- h a n d c o r n e r y o u h a v e

t h e p a g e n u m b e r s , I c a n s e e y o u a r e v e r y f a r fr o m w h e r e I w a n t y o u t o
b e , g o r i g h t to t h e b a c k , k e e p g o in g , y o u s h o u l d f in d 2 0 6 6 c l o s e r to
w h e r e y o u a r e n o w.
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s I h a v e fo u n d i t.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

A n d t h a t is t h e C A S P f u n d in g a g r e e m e n t .

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

If you look over the page to page 2067

y o u h a v e t h e s ig n a tu r e s o f t h r e e o ff i c ia ls fr o m t h e Fr e e S t a t e
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t .
20

MS ELDER MSHIZA:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

T h e fir s t o n e i s t h a t o f D r M a s i t e n g .

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e s e c o n d o n e is th a t o f M s D la m i n i th e

CFO.
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s .

Page 96 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h e t h i r d o n e is t h a t o f t h e H O D M r

T h a b e th e .
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h is d o c u m e n t w a s s i g n e d o n t h e 1 2 t h

of June 2013.
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n y o u b r ie f ly t a k e th e C h a ir m a n

t h r o u g h w h a t i t is t h a t t h e y w e r e a g r e e i n g i t t o a n d w h o m t h e y w e r e
a g r e e i n g th e s e p a r t ic u l a r te r ms w i t h ?
10

MS ELDER MSHIZA:

C h a i r a ft e r th e b u s i n e s s p l a n h a s b e e n

r e c o m m e n d e d fo r a p p r o v a l a n d th e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l h a s a p p r o v e d t h e ir
b u s i n e s s p l a n , w e th e n g e t in t o a n o t h e r a g r e e m e n t w it h t h e p r o v i n c e .
S o t h e s e a r e n o w t h e c o n d i t io n s t h a t t h e p r o v i n c e w ill c o m m i t t o a b i d e
t o i n e x e c u t in g t h e p r o j e c t in t h a t f i n a n c ia l y e a r. S o it w o u l d s t a t e t h e
t o t a l g r a n t fu n d i n g t o t h e p r o v in c e a n d t h e p r o v i n c e w il l t h e n s a y w e
a g r e e t o a ll t h e s e 11 c o n d i t io n s w h i c h a r e s e t n o w i n t h e a g r e e m e n t a s
t h e r u l e o r t h e n o n - n e g o ti a b l e a n d t h e h e a d o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t, t h e
C h i e f Fi n a n c i a l O ffi c e r a s w e l l a s th e C A S P c o o r d i n a t o r i n t h e p r o v i n c e ,
in th a t i n s ta n c e i t w a s D r M a s it e n g w o u l d t h e n h a v e to s ig n th e
20

a g r e e m e n t a n d t h e n s u b m i t b a c k to u s .

U p o n r e c e i p t o f th e s e

a g r e e m e n ts w e w i ll t a k e a ll th e a g r e e m e n ts t o N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y a n d
o n ly a ft e r t h e a g r e e m e n t i s s i g n e d c a n w e r e l e a s e t h e fu n d s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

So at the time that this agreement was

s ig n e d N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a d n o t c o m m u n i c a t e d i ts r e s e r v a ti o n s a r o u n d
t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t ?

Page 97 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W h e n d id y o u g e t th e fir s t i n c li n a t io n o r

in d i c a t io n th a t a ll w a s n o t w e ll w i t h th e Vr e d e D a ir y F a r m P r o j e c t ?
MS ELD ER MSHIZA:

C h a ir i t w a s i n J u ly w h e n w e r e c e iv e d a l e t t e r

fr o m N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y, th e ir c o n c e r n w a s t h a t t h e y h a d p ic k e d u p t h a t
t h e Vr e d e D a ir y is a p u b li c / p r iv a te p a r t n e r s h i p a n d t h a t th e p r o v in c e d id
n o t f o ll o w d u e p r o c e s s f o r a p u b l ic /p r iv a t e p a r t n e r s h i p a n d a s s u c h t h e y
a r e i n v io l a t i o n o f R e g u l a ti o n 1 3 . 6 1 a n d a n y c o n ti n u e d e x p e n d i t u r e o n
t h is p r o je c t w i ll e q u a l t o u n l a w f u l e x p e n d i t u r e .
10

As a result they are

r e q u e s t in g th a t w e s h o u l d w i th h o l d th e ir c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t . T h e D i v is io n
o f R e v e n u e d o e s a ll o w in t e r m s o f w i th h o l d i n g o f c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n ts
t h a t , t h a t p r o c e s s c a n b e i n i t ia t e d b y N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y o r b y t h e
tr a n s fe r r i n g o ffi c e r a n d t h e r e a r e c o n d i ti o n s th r o u g h w h ic h y o u c a n d o
t h a t a n d o n e o f th e m is i f th e r e i s a n y v i o l a ti o n to a n y Tr e a s u r y
R e g u l a ti o n s o r – y e s t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n I p o in t y o u to t h e s a m e r e f e r e n c e

b u n d l e b u t th is ti m e t o p a g e 2 0 6 3 , e x a c t ly w h e r e y o u w e r e b u t t h i s t i m e
it ’s a c o u p le o f p a g e s b e fo r e t h e la s t o n e y o u lo o k e d a t , 2 0 6 3 .
MS ELDER MSHIZA:
20

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Is th is th e l e tt e r y o u r e fe r t o d a t e d – i t ’s

n o t v e r y c l e a r b u t i t ’s J u n e 2 0 1 3 , c e r ta i n ly.
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s it w a s , i t ’s t h e s a m e l e tt e r C h a ir w h ic h w a s

r e c e i v e d b y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a n d it w a s d a t e d 2 6 J u n e b u t th e o ffi c e o f
t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l r e c e iv e d i t o n th e 3 r d o f J u ly 2 0 1 3 .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

As e v id e n c e b y th e s t a m p o n t h e to p

Page 98 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
r ig h t- h a n d c o r n e r ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

T h e s ta m p o n th e to p y e s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n y o u j u s t g i v e t h e C h a i r m a n t h e g is t

o f w h a t N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s r e s e r v a t io n s w e r e a s c o m m u n ic a t e d t o y o u r
d e p a r t m e n t?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

I n th e l e t te r C h a ir, i t ’s a c tu a l ly p a r a g r a p h t w o ,

t h e n a tu r e o f th e a r r a n g e m e n t w a s th a t a P P P a s I h a d e x p l a i n e d h a s
b e e n e n t e r e d in t o b y th e d e p a r t m e n t b u t t h e d e p a r t m e n t h a d fa il e d t o
f o ll o w d u e p r o c e s s w h ic h m e a n s th a t i t s h o u l d h a v e r e g is t e r e d t h e P P P
10

w i t h Tr e a s u r y a n d a l s o i n fo r m e d r e l e v a n t Tr e a s u r y t h a t t h e e x p e r t is e
e x i s ts w i t h i n t h e ir p r iv a t e p a r t n e r w h ic h t h e y a r e e n te r i n g in t o .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Yo u t h e n d e c id e d t o g o o n a s it e v is it ?

P l e a s e t e l l t h e C h a ir m a n a b o u t t h a t ?

W h e n w e r e c e i v e d t h e in s t r u c ti o n fr o m N a ti o n a l

Tr e a s u r y th e fi r s t th i n g y o u d o r e a ll y i s to a b i d e b y th e i r r e q u e s ts . S o
a c c o r d i n g t o th e D i v i s i o n o f R e v e n u e A c t w e t h e n i s s u e a n in t e n t i o n t o
w i t h h o ld th e f u n d s b u t b e c a u s e , a s I h a d i n d ic a te d w e w e r e s o ld o n t o
t h e p r o j e c t a n d w e r e a ll y w a n te d t o s e e t h is a n c h o r w i th i n t h e Fr e e
20

S t a te p a r t ic u l a r l y i n t h e i d e n t if i e d s i t e s w e th e n s e n t th e le t t e r o f
in t e n t io n to w i t h h o l d th e p r o v i n c e t o s a y t h e y s h o u l d s ta t e t h i s is w h a t
t h e N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y ’s c o n c e r n s a r e a n d t h e y s h o u l d t e l l u s w h y w e
s h o u l d n ’ t w i th h o l d t h e fu n d s . W e t h e n r e c e i v e d t h e r e s p o n s e fr o m t h e
p r o v i n c e w h ic h th e n o u tl i n e d a l l t h e a p p r o v a l b y t h e E x e c u ti v e
A u t h o r i ti e s a n d a ll t h a t b u t i t w a s n o t a d d r e s s in g t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e w a s

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
a d is p u t e w h e t h e r t h i s is a P P P f r o m t h e P r o v i n c i a l l e t te r t h a t w e
r e c e i v e d . S o w e in i ti a te d a le t t e r b a c k t o t h e p r o v in c e r e q u e s ti n g th a t ,
t o r e s o lv e t h is d is p u t e – b e c a u s e t e c h n ic a l ly w e a r e a ll i n a g r e e m e n t
t h a t t h is p la n s h o u ld b e e x e c u t e d .

We now need to meet as four

p a r t i e s to r e s o lv e th e s e – a n d s e e h o w b e s t d o w e c o r r e c t t h a t w r o n g
b u t b e f o r e t h a t m e e ti n g w e t h e n d e c i d e d , a c t u a ll y w e a p p r o v e d o n th e
b a s is o f t h e i n f o r m a t io n th a t w a s p r e s e n t e d t o u s s o l e t ’s t h e n g o o n
s i te v i s i t a n d g o a n d c o n fir m o u r t e c h n ic a l f a c ts , s o th a t b y th e t i m e w e
m e e t w e k n o w w e a r e t o g e th e r w i t h t h e p r o v in c e in e n f o r c in g th a t t h e
10

p r o j e c t i s c o n ti n u i n g .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D id y o u g o t o B l o e m f o n t e i n o r d i d y o u g o

t o Vr e d e ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

W e w e n t t o Vr e d e a n d w e m e t w i t h th e H O D , D r

M a s i t e n g a n d th e i r C F O a n d t h e D i s tr i c t M a n a g e r a t Vr e d e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Th e y w e r e t h e r e t o r e c e iv e y o u , y o u s a y

in y o u r p a r a g r a p h 11 ?
M S E L D E R M S H I Z A : Ye s , t h e y w e r e t h e r e t o r e c e iv e u s a n d t h e y t o o k
u s th r o u g h t h e s i t e i n s p e c ti o n s a n d t h e ir t e c h n ic a l t e a m w a s n o w
e n g a g i n g a n d it c o u l d o n ly e n g a g e w i t h t h e m b e c a u s e t h e i m p le m e n t in g
20

p a r t n o w w a s n o t th e r e .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n I a s k th is q u e s ti o n , b e c a u s e y o u h a d

s u c h a h ig h p o w e r e d d e l e g a ti o n fr o m y o u r o ff ic e a n d f r o m t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u lt u r e a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t , w a s t h e e n g a g e m e n t
w i t h t h e H O D a n d t h e c o o r d i n a t o r, a n d t h e C F O o r w a s i t w i t h t h e
people who worked on the farm?

Page 100 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

I t w a s w i t h t h e H O D , t h e c o o r d in a to r a n d t h e

C F O p l u s t h e ir P r o j e c t M a n a g e r w h o w a s o n s i t e a t th a t ti m e a n d t h e
D i s t r ic t M a n a g e r a ls o , I t h in k , s h e w a s a l s o p a r t o f th e m e e t in g . S o i t
w a s n o t w i t h t h e p e o p l e o n t h e fa r m b e c a u s e t h e o n e s w h o w e r e o n t h e
f a r m w e r e r e a l ly th e o n e s w h o w e r e w o r k i n g , b u s y w i t h c o n s tr u c ti o n .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

At paragraph 12 you then deal with what

y o u e s t a b l is h e d w h e n y o u g o t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I ’ m s o r r y M s G c a b a s h e I t h in k y o u – I m i s s e d y o u r

a n n o u n c e m e n t to g o b a c k t o t h e s t a t e m e n t , to t h e a ffi d a v i t ?
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Ye s I b e g y o u r p a r d o n , i n th e r u s h

C h a ir m a n t o k e e p t o t h e t i m e I p r o m is e d y o u .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o th a t ’s fi n e .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I’ m b e i n g a li t tl e u n ti d y, m y a p o l o g ie s

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s fi n e .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e a r e g o in g b a c k t o t h e s ta t e m e n t t o

p a g e s i x o f th e s t a te m e n t a n d i t s p a r a g r a p h 1 2 o f H H 1 4 C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

A n d c a n y o u j u s t g iv e t h e C h a ir m a n a

s e n s e o f h o w y o u f e l t w h e n y o u – a s y o u w e r e le a v i n g t h i s p r o je c t , a s
y o u w e r e l e a v i n g Vr e d e , y o u s e t th a t o u t i n p a r a g r a p h 1 2 .
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

C h a ir w e f o u n d t h a t t h e r e w a s w o r k g o i n g o n a n d

a l o t o f w o r k w a s a lr e a d y d o n e a s s ti p u l a t e d h e r e , w e w e r e a l s o t a k e n
t o t h e s i t e w h e r e t h e r e w e r e c a t t le k e p t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C a n y o u e x p la in t h a t s o t h e 3 5 1 Fr ie s l a n d

Page 101 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
c o w s w e r e h e l d o r k e p t a t a d i ffe r e n t s i t e i s t h is w h a t y o u ’ r e s a y i n g ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s , t h e y w e r e in Vr e d e b u t t h e y w e r e n o t a t th e

c o n s tr u c ti o n s i t e b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s c o n s tr u c ti o n . S o t h e y w e r e k e p t i n
t h e v e l d w h e r e t h e y w e r e g r a z i n g a n d th e r e w a s a v e t l o o k in g a f te r
them and some headmen when we got there.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d y o u s p e a k t o th is v e t , d o y o u k n o w

w h e r e – w a s h e fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

W e s p o k e t o t h e v e t h e w a s n o t fr o m t h e

d e p a r t m e n t C h a ir h e w a s a ls o c o m i n g fr o m In d ia y e s .
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

A vet from India?

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s c o n t i n u e .

I’ m s o r r y d i d y o u s p e a k t h r o u g h a n i n te r p r e t e r o r w a s

h e q u i t e c o n v e r s a n t i n E n g l is h ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

H e c o u l d s p e a k E n g lis h C h a i r b u t i t w a s n o t v e r y

p e r f e c t E n g l is h b u t w e c o u l d … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c o u l d u n d e r s ta n d ?

MS ELDER MSHIZA:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

W e c o u l d u n d e r s t a n d e a c h o t h e r.

O k a y.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d t h e y g i v e a n in d ic a t i o n o n h o w lo n g

t h e y h a d k e p t t h o s e p a r t ic u l a r c a tt l e t h e r e a n d w h e n t h o s e c a t t le w o u ld
b e m o v e d b a c k to t h e f a r m p r o p e r ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

I d o n ’ t r e m e m b e r t h a t p a r t o f t h e d is c u s s io n

C h a ir.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

D i d t h e y g iv e a n y in d ic a t i o n a s t o w h y

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t h e y h a d p u r c h a s e d t h e s e c a t tl e b e f o r e t h e f a r m i ts e l f w a s r e a d y
b e c a u s e y o u c a ll i t a c o n s tr u c ti o n s i t e ?
MS ELDER MSHIZA:

Ye s , t h e r e w e r e t i m e li n e s w i t h r e g a r d t o w h e n

t h e y a n t ic ip a t e d t h e c o n s tr u c ti o n o f t h e b u i ld in g to h a p p e n a n d t h e y fe l t
t o h a v e a p a r a l le l p r o c e s s t h r o u g h w h ic h y o u a r e n o w g e t t in g t h e v e t
f a m ili a r w it h t h e li v e s to c k a n d s h o w i n g t h a t th e y a r e p r o p e r ly n o u r is h e d
as

they

had

i n d ic a t e d

they

were

a n ti c i p a t in g

certain

le v e l

of

p r o d u c t iv i t y fr o m t h e s e c a t t le a n d I t h i n k i t w a s m e r e l y – b e c a u s e I
d o n ’t th i n k t h e r e w a s a n y k e y r e a s o n C h a ir, 2 0 1 3 , I m ig h t n o t r e m e m b e r
10

a l l t h e f a c t s b u t w e w e r e n o t n e c e s s a r i ly fi n d i n g it o d d b u t y e s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o n t i n u e b e c a u s e y o u th e n g o o n t o s p e a k
a b o u t w a t e r r i g h ts n o t b e i n g i n p l a c e e tc e t e r a . J u s t t a k e t h e C h a ir m a n
through that?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s . C h a ir r e m e m b e r w h e n w e a p p r o v e d th e r e

w e r e a n u m b e r o f q u e s ti o n s w h ic h th e p a n e l h a d a s k e d i n te r ms o f
r e a d in e s s to i m p le m e n t a n d o n e o f t h e m w a s a fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y.

On

s i te w e w e r e h o p i n g – o u r l e t te r s a i d w e w i ll g e t t h e r e a n d y o u w il l
p r e s e n t a n d p r o v i d e d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t w a s r e q u e s te d b y th e N a ti o n a l
A s s e s s m e n t P a n e l . S o t h e f e a s i b il it y r e p o r t w a s a l s o n o t is s u e d o n s i t e
20

to us.

T h e b u s in e s s p l a n p r e s e n ta t io n w a s a ls o n o t m a d e b u t t h e

project manager without a business plan he knew what needed to
happen.

A n d t h a t w a s a ls o a c o n c e r n b y t h e A g r ic u lt u r a l – t h e C h i e f

A g r ic u l t u r a l Ec o n o m i s t th a t w e w e r e w i t h . W e a ls o w e r e c o n c e r n e d t h a t
d u r i n g t h e p r e s e n ta t io n t h e p r o v in c e h a d in d i c a t e d t h a t a n a p p l ic a ti o n
f o r w a t e r r i g h t s w a s d o n e . B u t o n s i te t h e y c o u l d n o t a ls o p r o v i d e u s

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w i t h e v i d e n c e o f t h e ir a p p lic a t io n fo r w a te r r i g h ts b u t th e y h a d …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I ju s t – C a n I ju s t i n t e r r u p t y o u t h e r e
t o t id y u p o n e p i e c e ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Hm.

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d t h a t a g a i n ta k e s u s t o p a g e 2 0 6 9 o f
E x h i b i t H H R e f e r e n c e b u n d le F.

2 0 6 9 R e fe r e n c e b u n d l e F a n d a m I

c o r r e c t i n s a y i n g t h a t t h is is t h e le t t e r t h a t i n d ic a t e s t h a t e v e n a s a t th e
2 4 t h Fe b r u a r y 2 0 1 4 t h e a p p l ic a ti o n f o r w a t e r r i g h ts h a d n o t b e e n
concluded?
10

MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

A c c o r d i n g t o t h is l e tt e r y e s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I t is ju s t t h e m a te r i a l f a c t th a t w e h a v e

b e e n d e b a t i n g d u r i n g th e h e a r in g s . T h a n k y o u c o n t in u e y o u w e r e th e n
g o i n g t o j u s t c o m p l e t e y o u r s u m m a r y o f t h e i t e ms t h a t w e r e r e d fl a g s .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: For you.
MS ELD ER MTSHIZA:
t h e b e n e f ic i a r ie s .

A n d t h e r e w a s a l s o a n in d ic a ti o n C h a ir a b o u t

S o w h e n w e w e r e o n s i te o n e o f th e t h i n g s w e

m e n ti o n e d w a s th a t w e w o u l d h a v e l ik e d t o in t e r f a c e w i t h t h e m s o t h a t
w e a ls o g e t fr o m t h e m w h a t th e y u n d e r s t a n d a b o u t w h a t t h e p r o j e c t is
20

a l l a b o u t . B u t in th e a b s e n c e o f t h e m b e i n g p a r t o f th e m e e t in g c a n w e
b e a v a i le d t h a t li s t o f b e n e fi c i a r i e s a n d i t w a s a ls o n o t m a d e a v a i la b le
to us on site.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Can I again just ask you to – to go to the
same Reference bundle F page 2041.

T h is is a l e t te r w r i t t e n t o t h e

t h e n M i n i s te r o f A g r i c u l tu r e , F o r e s tr y a n d F is h e r i e s M e Tin a J o e m a t-

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p e t t e r s s o n a n d i t is w r it t e n b y t h e M E C i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e f o r A g r ic u l t u r e
Me Thabethe. And where …
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry did you say 2041?
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : 2 0 4 1 C h a ir m a n . I h a v e ju s t – t h is is th e
p a r t ic u l a r p a r a g r a p h I w i ll b e r e fe r r i n g to C h a ir m a n b u t i f y o u w a n t t h e
b e g in n i n g o f t h e le t t e r I c a n g iv e y o u t h a t p a g e n u m b e r ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y I th i n k …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
10

T h a t is w h a t m i g h t b e c o n f u s in g m e b e c a u s e o n th e

p a g e i t d o e s n o t lo o k lik e i t is a le t t e r.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . T h e le t t e r s t a r ts o n 2 0 3 6 C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay now I see.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s a n d i t is d a t e d t h e 2 6 t h A u g u s t 2 0 1 3 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a o k a y.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : B u t t h e s a l ie n t p o r ti o n I w a n t t o r e f e r t h e
w i t n e s s to is a t p a g e 2 0 4 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h a t p a r a g r a p h 2 t h e v e r y la s t

s e n te n c e o f th e p a r a g r a p h th a t is ti t le d P h a s e s fo r Pr o je c t D e p l o y m e n t
20

r e a d s a s f o l lo w s :
“ I t is p e r ti n e n t to n o t e th a t th e d e p a r t m e n t h a s
a lr e a d y i d e n ti f ie d a n d s i g n e d c o n tr a c t s w i t h 8 0
b e n e fic i a r i e s

fo r

t h is

project and

any

delay

in

r e l e a s in g f u n d s w il l h a v e a d ir e c t i m p a c t o n t h e
b e n e fic i a r i e s . ”

Page 105 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
N o w w h e n y o u w e n t o n t h i s s i t e v is i t a n d i n t h e n e g o ti a ti o n s a r o u n d
w h a t y o u r e q u ir e d fr o m t h e d e p a r t m e n t in t h e Fr e e S t a t e w e r e y o u e v e r
s h o w n t h e s e s i g n e d c o n tr a c ts w i t h 8 0 b e n e fi c i a r i e s .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

N o C h a ir.

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : I n f a c t t o o u r k n o w le d g e o n t h e e v id e n c e
t h a t h a s b e e n l e d t o d a te 8 0 b e n e fi c i a r ie s c e r t a i n l y – th e r e a r e n o s u c h
c o n tr a c ts th a t h a v e b e e n b r o u g h t h e r e o r t h a t w e h a v e b e e n a b l e t o f in d
a n d I t h o u g h t y o u m i g h t h a v e b e t te r in f o r m a ti o n t h a n t h e c o m m i s s io n .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:
10

N o C h a ir w e – a s I i n d i c a t e d w e d i d n o t g e t t h e

b e n e fic i a r i e s n o r w e r e w e p r e s e n t e d w i th a l is t w h i c h w e r e q u e s t e d a t
the meeting.

W h e n w e le f t t h e m e e ti n g w e h a d a g r e e d w it h t h e H O D

t h a t h e – b e c a u s e h e i n d ic a te d t h a t t h e r e is a l li s t o f b e n e f ic i a r ie s b u t
h e d id n o t t a lk to c o n tr a c ts . S o m a y b e t h e y d i d e n t e r i n t o th e m l a t e r I
a m n o t s u r e . S o th e r e w e r e – to c o n c l u d e o u r v is i t w e m a d e a l is t o f
the things that needed to come to us because we could not make any
e n g a g e m e n t t e c h n ic a l ly a n d t h a t w a s s u p p o s e d t o b e a t e c h n ic a l v i s i t
o n s i t e . W e t h e n r e q u e s t e d t h a t t h e f e a s ib il it y r e p o r t b e s u b m i t te d t o
u s , th e lis t o f b e n e fic i a r i e s b e s e n t t o u s , t h e b u s in e s s p l a n a ls o b e
sent to us, the EIA be sent to us.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s . T h e n a t y o u r p a r a g r a p h 1 3 y o u – y o u
s p e a k t o t h e b a c k t o o ffi c e r e p o r t t h a t y o u h a v e a n n e x e d t o t h i s
a ffi d a v i t .

That report Chairman is on paginated page 26 of HH14.

H H 1 4 w h ic h is t h e a ffi d a v it o f t h e w i tn e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t o n e s e c o n d . I a m s o r r y a b o u t th a t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : O f c o u r s e C h a ir m a n n o t a p r o b l e m .

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CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o w e a r e a t p a g e p a g in a t e d 7 o n e h a n d
is 0 a c o u p le o f f in g e r s a r e h o l d i n g p a g e 7 w h ic h is w h e r e p a r a g r a p h 1 3
a p p e a r s C h a ir m a n a n d t h e n t h e o t h e r p a r t – o t h e r h a n d h a s g o n e t o
p a g e 2 6 w h ic h s p e a k s to t h e is s u e s r a i s e d in p a r a g r a p h 1 3 .

So we

lo o k in g a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 o n p a g in a t e d p a g e 7 . W e a r e a ls o l o o k i n g a t
t h e s p e c i f ic r e p o r t t h a t is r e fe r r e d t o i n p a r a g r a p h 1 3 w h ic h is fo u n d o n
p a g in a t e d p a g e 2 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

M a ’ a m c a n y o u ju s t ta k e t h e C h a ir m a n

t h r o u g h w i th o u t r e a d in g t h e f u ll b a c k t o o ff ic e r e p o r t . I t h i n k i f y o u t a k e
t h e C h a i r m a n th r o u g h th o s e e s s e n t ia l r e c o m m e n d a t io n s t h a t y o u m a d e
w h ic h y o u h a v e e n u m e r a te d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 3 ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Chair when we came back we were then – the

p r o v i n c e m e t t h e ir d e a d li n e s o f s u b m i t ti n g to t h e [i n d is t in c t ] t h a t w e
h a d r e q u e s t e d b u t w e o n ly r e c e i v e d th e fe a s i b il it y r e p o r t a n d a g r e e m e n t
b e t w e e n t h e p r o v i n c e a n d E s t in a .
plan.

W e d id n o t r e c e i v e t h e b u s i n e s s

T h e A g r i c u l tu r a l Ec o n o m is ts a n d o u r d a ir y e x p e r t t h e n e n g a g e d

o n t h a t d o c u m e n t a ti o n b e c a u s e w e r e a lly h a d t o m a k e d e c is i o n s a n d
20

m a k e d e c i s i o n s v e r y q u ic k ly. A n d th e i r c o n c e r n s w h e r e t h a t – t h a t w a s
r e a l ly n o t a f e a s i b il it y – a p r o p e r fe a s ib il i ty s t u d y fo r t h e Vr e d e D a i r y
b e c a u s e i t d i d n o t g i v e t h e m m u c h c o n t e n t a r o u n d Vr e d e w h ic h t h e y
w a n t e d a n d t h e y h a d h i g h l ig h t e d a n u m b e r o f c o n c e r n s w i t h t h e
a s s u m p t io n s w h ic h w e r e m a d e .

T h e p r o f it a b i li ty o f th e e n t i ty a s h a d

b e e n p r o j e c t e d in th e f e a s ib il i ty r e p o r t .

And just to go through to our

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r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s .

T h e y t h e n r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h e b a s i s th r o u g h

w h ic h t h e a p p r o v a l w a s m a d e w a s f a l s e b e c a u s e o f t h e d o c u m e n t a ti o n
t h a t c a m e t h r o u g h e v e n t h e a p p l ic a t i o n f o r m f o r w a te r r ig h ts d i d n o t
a c c o m p a n y s o h e m a d e a n a s s u m p t io n b e i n g s i t e w h e n t h e H O D t o l d u s
t h a t h e is m e e t i n g w i t h t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f W a te r t h e n e x t d a y fr o m o u r
m e e ti n g t h a t th a t w o u l d o n l y b e t h e t i m e t h a t t h e y a r e g o i n g t o b e
m a k i n g t h e a p p lic a ti o n .

S o w e r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t t h e – b e c a u s e th e

b a s is t h r o u g h w h ic h w e m a d e t h e a p p r o v a l w a s f a ls e t h e p r o v i n c e m u s t
n o w c o n d u c t a p r o p e r f e a s ib il i ty s tu d y f o r t h e p r o j e c t a n d a ls o t h a t
10

f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y w i ll th e n in f o r m a p r o p e r b u s i n e s s p l a n th a t t h e y m u s t
c o n c l u d e o n t h e a p p li c a t i o n s f o r w a t e r r i g h t s a n d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s
s o m e i n d ic a ti o n o f l iv e s to c k t h a t m i g h t a n d w e w o u l d n o t k n o w w h e th e r
in t h e b u s i n e s s e x e c u ti o n t h e r e w o u l d b e s o m e c h a n g e i n b r e e d g iv e n
t h a t y o u h a v e a n i n te r n a ti o n a l e n ti t y t h a t w h ic h is P a r a s a t th e ti m e t h a t
is g o in g t o b r i n g s o m e o f i ts i n t e l le c t i n t o h o w m i lk s h o u l d b e p r o d u c e d
b e c a u s e a s w a s i n d ic a te d b y th e s e e x p e r ts t h e q u a n ti ti e s w h i c h w e r e
p r o j e c t e d in t h a t p l a n w e r e to o a m b i ti o u s a n d n o t e v e n a c h i e v e d b y t h e
h i g h p e r fo r m i n g d a ir y p r o d u c e r s in th e c o u n tr y. T h a t th e p r o v i n c e m u s t
c o n d u c t a l s o b io lo g ic a l i m p a c t s tu d y a n d a ls o f o r t h e s e r e a s o n s

20

t h e r e f o r e w e c a n n o t c o n fi d e n t ly c o n t i n u e w i th f u n d i n g t h e p r o je c t
b e c a u s e w e b e l ie v e t e c h n ic a l ly a l l t e c h n ic a l p r o c e s s e s w e r e n o t
p r o p e r ly f o l lo w e d a n d t h e f u n d s m u s t t h e r e fo r e b e w i t h h e ld . S o t o t h a t
e n d w e c o m p le t e d t h i s r e p o r t t o i n f o r m t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l a n d w e
is s u e d t h e l a s t f in a l l e tt e r t h a t th e f u n d s s h o u l d b e w i th h e l d a n d t h e
b a l a n c e o f th e f u n d i n g c a n b e r e l e a s e d b a c k t o th e N a t io n a l R e v e n u e

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F u n d o r s u p p o r t p r o je c t s w i t h i n th e p r o v in c e w h ic h w e k n e w e x i s te d a n d
s t il l n e e d e d fu n d i n g a n d s o m e o f w h i c h w e r e o w i n g t h e A g r i c u l t u r e
C r e d i t B o a r d . B u t fo r u s t o c o n c lu d e w h e th e r t h e f u n d s m u s t t h e n b e
r e d ir e c t e d w e n e e d e d n o w d e t a i l o f t h e p r o j e c ts t h a t w e i d e n ti f ie d
a g a in s t t h e b a l a n c e o f t h e f u n d a n d w e s e n t t e a m s o u t t o c o n fir m t h a t
t h e w o r k t h a t is p r o p o s e d b y th e p r o v i n c e f o r t h e o t h e r p r o j e c ts i s w h a t
s h o u l d h a p p e n a n d u p o n a p p r o v a l b y th e p a n e l w e t h e n r e d iv e r t e d t h e
f u n d s fr o m Vr e d e D a ir y t o th e s e o t h e r p r o j e c ts . S o …
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C a n I ju s t – c a n I j u s t c la r i fy o n e p o in t . I
10

k n o w y o u h a v e g o n e p a s t t h is p o i n t .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Hm.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

B u t i f y o u l o o k a t p a g i n a te d p a g e 3 0 i n

H H 1 4 C h a ir m a n y o u w il l f i n d t h e r e a lis t o f e ig h t f a c to r s a r i s i n g fr o m
t h e fl a w s i n t h e f e a s i b i li ty s t u d y. I s t h a t c o r r e c t M a ’ a m ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: And it is on the basis of…
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u s a y – d i d y o u s a y p a r a g r a p h [ in d i s ti n c t ] .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : P a g in a t e d p a g e 3 0 , 3 0 C h a ir m a n .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh 30.
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s C h a ir m a n . I t h in k t h e s e a r e i m p o r t a n t
ju s t f o r p u r p o s e s o f g i v i n g p e r s p e c ti v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

O f th e fl a w s t h a t w e r e i n th a t fe a s ib il i ty

s t u d y,
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:
la r g e

parts

of

the

O k a y.

O n e w h a t w a s r e a c h e d C h a ir is t h a t

f e a s ib il it y

study

covers

standard

t h e o r e tic a l

in f o r m a ti o n w i th n o d e ta il s .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u r m ic r o p h o n e .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

S o r r y.

W i t h n o d e t a i ls o n t h e p r o j e c t i ts e l f .

F o r a n e x a m p l e t h e d o c u m e n t c o v e r s a l t e r n a t iv e a p p r o a c h e s o f d o i n g
t h i n g s , w h a t t o l o o k f o r, w h e n p l a n n in g w i t h o u t a fi n a l s ta t e m e n t o n h o w
t h i n g s w il l b e d o n e i n th is p r o j e c t a n d i n p a r t ic u l a r a n d w h e r e w i ll t h e y
source what and at what cost?
10

Fo r a n e x a m p l e y o u w o u ld h a v e

e x p e c te d th e m t o h a v e f a c t o r e d i n t h e c o s ts f o r f e e d s .

T h e c o s ts f o r

w a t e r a n d a t w h a t c o s t w i ll – a n d w i ll w h e r e w ill t h a t b e s o u r c e d s o th a t
it i n fo r ms y o u r b u s i n e s s p l a n a n d y o u r b u s i n e s s p l a n ’ p r o j e c t e d p r o f it
c a n t h e n b e c o n f ir m e d t o b e tr u e .

Th e s t u d y d o e s n o t m a k e a n y

c o m m e n t s o n th e to t a l w a te r n e e d e d a n d a b i li ty t o p r o v i d e it . T h is i s a n
a s p e c t t h a t n e e d s t o b e v e r i f ie d b y s p e c i a lis t s s u c h a s e n g i n e e r s
s p e c i a lis i n g i n t h is fi e ld f o r b o t h t h e fr e s h w a t e r a n d s u r f a c e w a te r. N o
d o c u m e n t a ti o n o f t h e w a te r r ig h ts h a s b e e n p r o v i d e d .

The document

d o e s n o t m a k e a n y c o m m e n t o n t h e i n v o lv e m e n t o f s m a ll h o l d e r
farmers.
20

T h e ir lo c a t io n , w h o t h e y a r e , t h e ir c u r r e n t p r o d u c t iv it y a n d

in fr a s tr u c t u r a l r e q u i r e m e n ts .

N o t h in g i s m e n ti o n e d o n h o w th e ir

p r o d u c t io n w i ll b e m a n a g e d to m e e t s p e c i fi c r e q u ir e m e n t s p r ic i n g ,
c o l l e c ti n g e tc e te r a .

A n d th is w a s b e c a u s e w e u n d e r s t o o d th a t t h e r e

w o u ld a ls o b e t h e r e c ip ie n ts o f c a t tl e fr o m a n d p r o d u c e i t o n t h e ir f a r m s
a s w e l l t h e m il k . T h e c o n c e p ti o n r a te a t 6 0 % is l o w a n d i t is n o t i n l in e
w i t h t h e h i g h m i ld p r o d u c ti o n a s s u m p t io n i n t h e b u s i n e s s p la n .

Page 110 of 163

The

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
n u m b e r o f c o w s n e e d e d fo r m a t i n g a t a 6 0 % c o n c e n tr a t i o n r a t e w il l b e
in t h e o r d e r o f 8 3 0 .
cows.

T h i s w il l r e s u lt i n a v e r y h i g h p e r c e n t a g e o f d r y

Th e n o r m a l a c c e p t a b l e r a t e fo r d r y c o w s i n t h e h e r d is i n th e

order of about 20%.

T h e g e n e r a l e c o n o m ic a s s u m p t io n w h ic h w a s o n

p a g e 5 6 o f t h e 6 3 d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s s u b m i t te d n e e d e d fu r t h e r c la r i ty.
T h e a m o u n ts f o r s o m e c a s e s c o u l d w e ll b e c h a ll e n g e d w h il e o th e r s
c o u l d b e p a r t o f a d o u b le c o u n t in g i n t h e b r o a d e r p e r s p e c t iv e .

The

a s s u m p t io n o f 4 5 l i tr e s m il k p e r c o w p e r d a y i s t o o g o o d to b e tr u e .
S o m e o f t h e l e a d in g m il k p r o d u c e r s i n th e c o u n tr y w i ll a l o n g b u il d - u p
10

o f q u a l i ty d a ir y h e r d s r e c o r d e d i n t h e o r d e r o f 3 0 li tr e s m i lk p e r c o w p e r
d a y.

T h e i m p l ic a ti o n c o u l d w e ll b e t h a t t h e e s t i m a t e d p r o fi t s fo r th e

b u s i n e s s b e r e d u c e d t o 6 0 % o f w h a t is r e c o r d e d c u r r e n tly i n th e p l a n .
T h e r e is n o m e n ti o n o f t h e b i o l o g ic a l i m p a c t o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d n o
d o c u m e n t a ti o n to t h is e ff e c t h a s b e e n p r o v id e d . T h e m a r k e t a p p r o a c h is
n o t c la r i fi e d .

P r o b a b ly t h is w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o v e r e d i n f u ll i n th e

b u s i n e s s p l a n b u t t h e b u s in e s s p la n i s n o t a v a il a b l e . S o t h i s w a s th e
d o c u m e n t a ti o n s C h a ir w h ic h I r e c e iv e d f r o m t h e A g r ic u l t u r a l E c o n o m is t s
a n d th e d a ir y s p e c ia li s ts i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Yo u h a v e t h e n to l d th e C h a ir m a n t h a t y o u
20

– t h e d e p a r t m e n t d e c i d e d t o – h a v i n g e n g a g e d w it h t h e p r o v in c i a l
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r a l a n d R u r a l D e v e l o p m e n t y o u r d e p a r t m e n t
d e c i d e d t o w i t h h o ld t h e R 5 3 m il li o n th a t y o u h a d a ll o c a t e d . C a n I a s k
y o u t o g o t o E x h i b i t H H R e f e r e n c e b u n d l e B fo r B a r r y. A n d i f y o u g o to
p a g e 6 1 0 t h e r e y o u w i ll f i n d a l e tt e r t h a t c o n fir m s w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g
a b o u t th e w i t h d r a w a l o f t h o s e fu n d s a n d I w o u ld li k e y o u t o t u r n to p a g e

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
6 11 w h ic h is t h e s e c o n d p a g e o f th a t l e tt e r. S o i t s ta r t s o n 6 1 0 .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h is i s R e fe r e n c e b u n d l e B ?

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: B yes Ma’am.
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Apologies I took F

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o t h e le t t e r s t a r ts o n p a g e 6 1 0 .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h is i s p a g e 6 0 0 a n d ?

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: 10.
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

10.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

B u t I r e a l ly w a n t t o r e f e r y o u to th e

s e c o n d p a g e w h ic h is 6 11 .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h e l a s t t w o p a r a g r a p h s o f t h is l e t t e r.

C o u ld y o u ju s t r e a d th a t i n t o t h e r e c o r d b r i e fly b e c a u s e i t c o n f ir m s w h a t
y o u a r e s a y in g ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:
“ T h e Pr o v i n c e h a s f a i l e d t o m e e t t h e 1 s t N o v e m b e r
d e a d l in e . A ls o N a t i o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a s c o m m i s s io n e d
a forensic audit”
Is t h a t th e o n e C h a ir ?
20

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : Ye s p l e a s e c o n t in u e .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

O k a y.

“ A ls o N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y h a s c o m m i s s i o n e d a fo r e n s ic
a u d it o f th e p r o j e c t w h ic h w a s e x p e c t e d t o e n d o n
31st October 2013.

H o w e v e r t h e r e s u lt s o f t h e

f o r e n s ic a u d it h a v e n o t b e e n c o m m u n ic a t e d t o u s . ”

Page 112 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C o n t in u e i n to th e …
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:
“In

th e s e

c ir c u m s t a n c e s

no

funds

w i ll

be

c o m m u n ic a te d to … ”
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : W il l b e c o m m it t e d .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:
“ W il l b e c o m m i t t e d t o t h e p r o j e c t a t t h i s s t a g e fr o m
t h e C U S P a n d [ in d i s ti n c t ] c o n d i ti o n a l g r a n t s .
NAP
10

m e e t in g

that

was

p la n n e d

to

The

recommend

p r o j e c ts fo r m i n is te r i a l s u p p o r t fo r t h e 2 0 1 4 / 1 5 h a s
b e e n r e s c h e d u l e d fr o m D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 3 t o Fe b r u a r y
2 0 1 4 to a l lo w a t u r n b y tu r n m e e ti n g b e tw e e n t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e F o r e s tr y a n d Fis h e r i e s ,
N a t io n a l

Tr e a s u r y,

P r o v in c i a l

Department

of

A g r ic u l t u r e a n d P r o v i n c i a l Tr e a s u r i e s w h ic h I h o p e
y o u w il l p r i o r i t is e . ”
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : N o w t h i s is a l e tt e r th a t c a m e fr o m th e D G
in y o u r d e p a r t m e n t a n d i t w a s d i r e c t e d t o th e C E O o f t h e P r o v i n c ia l
Tr e a s u r y i n t h e Fr e e S t a te P r o v i n c e P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y.
20

MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d t h e d a te o f t h i s l e t te r i s th e 3 r d

December 2013.
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

S o t h e a p r o n s tr i n g s w e r e c u t o n t h is

date? The money was withdrawn?

Page 113 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

The money was withdrawn but it was withdrawn

a lr e a d y i n A u g u s t C h a i r a f t e r t h e v i s i t . H e r e t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l w a s
r e s p o n d i n g to t h e r e q u e s t s o r t h e q u e s ti o n t h a t w a s a s k e d b y th e
P r o v i n c ia l Tr e a s u r y w h e t h e r – t o c o n fir m w h e t h e r w e a r e s ti ll in s u p p o r t
o f t h e p r o j e c t o r n o t . S o t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l w a s n o w ju s t p u t ti n g t h e
r e c o r d s tr a i g h t t o s a y n o t – w e a r e n o t .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : S o th e c l e a r m e s s a g e t o t h e m w a s y o u d i d
n o t c o m p l y w i t h t h e c o n d i ti o n s t h a t w e r e s e t, i s t h a t c o r r e c t ? W e a s k e d
y o u t o c o r r e c t c e r t a i n m a t t e r s y o u d i d n o t d o s o b y t h e d e a d li n e t h a t w e
10

h a d g iv e n y o u a n d f o r t h is r e a s o n w e a r e n o w g o in g t o c o n f ir m t h a t w e
a r e n o t g iv i n g th is m o n e y f o r t h is f in a n c i a l y e a r.
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

Were there any other engagements after

t h is le t t e r w a s w r i tt e n a n d a f t e r th e m o n e y w a s w i th d r a w n ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s C h a ir. W h e n w e w r o t e t h e b a c k t o o ffi c e

r e p o r t w e m a d e th e r e p o r t a ls o a v a i la b le t o t h e p r o v i n c e a n d r e q u e s te d
a m e e t in g t o tr y a n d f in d w a y s o f s u p p o r t i n g t h e p r o v i n c e i n m e e t in g t h e
e x p e c ta t io n a s s ta t e d i n t h e l e t t e r.

S o t h e o ff e r t o p r o v i d e a d d it i o n a l

t e c h n ic a l s u p p o r t b y t h e p r o v in c e w a s a ls o n o t a c c e p t e d o r r e s p o n d e d
20

to.
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A r e t h e r e a n y o th e r m a t t e r s y o u w o u l d li k e
t o e x p la i n t o th e C h a ir m a n a s y o u c o n c lu d e y o u r e v id e n c e ? I s a y t h i s
p o s s i b ly b e c a u s e t h e C h a ir m a n m ig h t b e i n te r e s t e d in – i n t h e k i n d s o f
p a r t n e r s h i p s t h a t y o u w o u l d s o m e t i m e s f u n d b u t w h ic h p a r tn e r s h ip s
w e r e n o t P P P ’s .

T h e e x a m p le y o u g a v e u s d u r i n g o u r c o n s u l t a t i o n

Page 114 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
m i g h t g i v e h i m a s e n s e o f w h e r e t o p l a c e th is p a r tic u la r “ p a r t n e r s h i p ”
t h a t E s ti n a e n t e r e d i n t o w i t h th e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e a n d R u r a l
Development please.
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s C h a ir.

W e h a v e h a d c o m m u n i ti e s w i t h

a r a b le l a n d w h i c h is b i g e n o u g h t o b e c o m m e r c ia li s e d b u t t h e y w il l n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e t h e s k il l n o r th e c a p it a l to p u t o r t o t a p i n to t h a t
o p p o r t u n i ty. S o t h e y w i ll id e n ti fy a p r iv a te p a r t n e r a n d g e t i n t o a n
a g r e e m e n t w i t h a p r i v a t e p a r tn e r t o d e v e l o p t h e ir la n d a s a c o m m e r c i a l
e n t i ty. A n d w h a t t h e y – b e c a u s e t h e y d o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly h a v e t h e s k il l ,
10

y o u d o n o t h a v e t h e c a p i t a l b u t t h e y h a v e l a n d t h e te c h n i c a l p a r t n e r w i ll
t h e n d e v e l o p a f u ll c o m p r e h e n s i v e b u s in e s s p l a n a n d t o g e th e r w i th t h e
c o m m u n i ty a p p r o a c h t h e d e p a r t m e n t .

I n t h is in s ta n c e i t w o u l d b e th e

P r o v i n c ia l D e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e Pr o v i n c i a l D e p a r t m e n t w o u l d l o v e t h e
p r o p o s e d p r o j e c t a n d i t i s i n li n e w it h o u r o b j e c t iv e s a n d i m p e r a t iv e s
a n d t h a t s u p p o r t w i ll t h e n h a p p e n o n t h a t . B u t w e w i ll a g r e e t o s u p p o r t
t h a t ty p e o f a p r o je c t b y p u t ti n g u p t h e ir r e q u ir e d i n fr a s tr u c tu r e . O n e o f
s u c h p r o je c t s w h i c h w a s a p a r tn e r s h ip b e t w e e n t h e c o m m u n i ty a n d t h e
p r i v a t e e n t it y w h ic h w a s n o t n e c e s s a r i ly a P P P w a s t h e s u p p o r t t o
[i n d is t in c t] m a c a d a m i a i n th e E a s t e r n C a p e .
20

S o t h e e v i d e n c e le a d e r

w a s a s k i n g i f w e h a v e h a d o t h e r p a r t n e r s h i p s th a t w e h a v e s u p p o r t e d
b e y o n d t h is a n d w e g a v e th a t ty p e o f a n e x a m p le . In t h is in s t a n c e t h e
p a r t n e r s h i p w a s n o t in i ti a te b y t h e d e p a r t m e n t . Th e p a r t n e r s c a m e t o
t h e d e p a r t m e n t to s a y w e h a v e th is o p p o r t u n i ty c o u l d y o u h e lp a n d t h e
a s s e ts t h a t y o u e s t a b li s h a n d t h e l a n d is p a r t o f th e c o n tr i b u ti o n o f th e
c o m m u n i ty. A n d th e n …

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: So you are saying the farmers themselves
a l o n g w i t h th e i r i n v e s to r p a r t n e r s w o u l d a p p r o a c h t h e d e p a r t m e n t?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A n d s a y w e h a v e g o t [ i n d is ti n c t ] ,
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s .

ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

W e h a v e g o t e q u i ty h e r e .

We have

b r o u g h t t h e l a n d o r w h a te v e r i t m i g h t b e .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : H e r e a r e p e o p l e w e a r e w o r k in g w it h b u t
10

we need your support.
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Ye s .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : To s c a l e th is o p e r a ti o n o f o u r s .
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t . A n d in th is i n s t a n c e y o u w i ll

s e e w h a t is t h e r a n d v a l u e th a t t h e p a r tn e r i s b r i n g i n g o n th e t a b le p lu s
t h e ir s k il l a n d th e y w o u l d a ls o d o a l o t o f l o b b y i n g f o r a d d i t io n a l f u n d in g
fr o m o t h e r s o u r c e s j u s t i n c lu d in g t h e b a n k s j u s t t o s u p p o r t a n d w e
w o u ld j o i n i n t o o – e n s u r e t h a t w e tu r n t h a t la n d i n t o a c o m m e r c i a l
a s s e t o f t h a t c o m m u n i ty.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
20

B u t t h a t o f c o u r s e w a s a v e r y d i ff e r e n t

m o d e l t o w h a t h a p p e n e d w it h t h e E s ti n a m o d e l w h e r e a n i m p le m e n t in g
agent was appointed by the Department and the rest followed.
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

Th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

A n d p r o b a b ly a s w e

w o u ld b e g u i d e d b y N a ti o n a l Tr e a s u r y th a t is w h y t h e y th e n i n f o r m e d u s
t h a t t h a t i s a m o d e l t h a t is f u l ly i n l i n e w i t h w h a t t h e y h a v e p r e s c r i b e d
a s a P P P.

Page 116 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : E x c e l le n t . A n y t h i n g e ls e y o u w o u l d lik e t o
s h a r e w it h t h e C h a ir m a n ?
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:

T h a t is it C h a ir. T h a n k y o u .

A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : C h a ir m a n I h a v e n o fu r t h e r q u e s ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r c o m i n g t o s h a r e w h a t
y o u k n o w w i t h th e c o m m i s s i o n .

We appreciate it.

Should there –

s h o u l d a n e e d a r is e w e w il l a s k y o u t o c o m e b a c k b u t th a n k y o u v e r y
much and for now you are excused.
MS ELDER MTSHIZA:
10

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

C h a ir m a n w e n o w h a v e M s – A d v o c a te

M o le f e p r e s e n ti n g t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r T h e r o n . W e h a v e a n i n t e r p r e te r
t o a s s is t M r T h e r o n .

I f w e m a y h a v e a f iv e m i n u t e a d j o u r n m e n t

C h a ir m a n s o t h a t t h e in t e r p r e t e r c o u ld b e s w o r n in a n d s o t h e w i tn e s s
c a n t a k e h is s e a t i n t h e w i t n e s s s t a n d . I t is a s h o r t w i tn e s s C h a ir m a n
w e w ill n o t b e v e r y l o n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e w il l – i t i s a b o u t t h r e e m i n u t e s t o t h r e e . W e w i ll
20

t a k e – w e w i ll r e s u m e a t t e n p a s t .

I w il l a d d a n o t h e r s e v e n m i n u t e s .

W e w il l r e s u m e a t t e n p a s t s o w e w i ll – I w i ll s w e a r i n t h e w i t – t h e
in t e r p r e t e r a n d t h e n a t t e n p a s t w e r u s u m e .
A D V L E A H G C A B A S H E S C : A s t h e c o u r t – a s t h e C h a ir m a n p l e a s e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .

Page 117 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s C h a ir w e a r e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. P r o c e e d p l e a s e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Thank

you

C h a ir.

As

m e n ti o n e d

by

A d v o c a t e G c a b a s h e w e w i ll b e c o n t in u in g w i th th e e v i d e n c e r e l a t e d t o
t h e Vr e d e D a ir y Pr o j e c t a n d t h e n e x t w i t n e s s w h o m w e a r e c a lli n g is
M r J o h a n n e s C o r n e lis H e r m a n u s T h e r o n . C h a ir a b u n d l e m a r k e d H H 1 5
10

is p l a c e d b e f o r e y o u a n d w e b e g le a v e t o h a v e t h a t b u n d l e a d m it t e d
in t o t h e e v i d e n c e a s s u c h .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e f il e c o n ta i n i n g t h e a ffi d a v i t o f Mr J o h a n n e s

C o r n e lis H e r m a n u s T h e r o n w il l b e m a r k e d E X H I B I T H H 1 5 .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : M ig h t I r e q u e s t t h a t t h e w i t n e s s b e s w o r n i n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W e l l t h e - t h e o a th w il l - I g u e s s w il l b e i n

E n g l is h . L e t u s c o n fi r m . Mr T h e r o n I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u a r e A f r ik a a n s
s p e a k i n g b u t t h a t y o u a r e h a p p y t o g i v e e v i d e n c e in E n g l is h .
20

Is th a t

r ig h t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

That is correct -

c o r r e c t Yo u r H o n o u r.
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k

you

very

much.

So

an

a d m i n is te r e d to y o u i n E n g li s h n o w. O k a y.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .

Page 118 of 163

oath

w i ll b e

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
J o h a n n e s C o r n e l is H e r m a n u s T h e r o n .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : N o y o u r h o n o u r.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , th e w h o l e t r u t h a n d n o th in g b u t t h e t r u th ? I f s o p le a s e r a is e y o u r
10

r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : S o h e lp m e G o d .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

(duly

sworn,

states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : P le a s e r e fe r t o t h e b u n d le t h a t is b e f o r e y o u .
I t is m a r k e d H H 1 5 . D o y o u s e e i t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s . I h a v e g o t it .
20

A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d i f y o u o p e n t h a t b u n d l e s t a r ti n g a t p a g e 1
o f t h a t d o c u m e n t a ll t h e w a y t h r o u g h t o p a g e 5 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t . Ar e
y o u a b l e t o i d e n ti fy t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s . I i d e n t i fy i t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Is th a t y o u r s ta t e m e n t t o t h e C o m m i s s io n ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Page 119 of 163

That

is

my

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s t a te m e n t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d i f y o u t u r n to p a g e 5 o f th a t

d o c u m e n t t h e r e - a r e y o u th e r e ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h e r e a p p e a r s a d a t e a t t h e b o tt o m o f t h a t

s t a te m e n t . 2 6 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 1 9 . Is t h a t t h e d a t e o n w h ic h y o u d e p o s e d
t o t h i s a ff id a v i t?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d t h e r e a p p e a r s a l s o a s ig n a tu r e a b o v e t h e
10

w o r d “ d e p o n e n t ” . Is th a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

That

is

my

s ig n a tu r e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W h e n y o u d r a f t e d t h i s s ta t e m e n t M r T h e r o n

d i d y o u u n d e r s t a n d i ts c o n t e n ts ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

I

complete

u n d e r s t a n d it . T h a n k y o u .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: And as I understand …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d w h e n h e d r a f t e d i t . W a s t h a t in t e n t i o n a l ?
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : P a r d o n m e C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : I a m h ig h ly i n d e b te d .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E E : M r Th e r o n w h e n t h e s t a t e m e n t w a s d r a ft e d w a s
it r e a d t o y o u ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Page 120 of 163

Ye s .

It was red to

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
me.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d th e c o n te n ts c o n ta in e d i n t h is a ff id a v i t a s
w e h a v e u n d e r s to o d y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e i n A fr ik a a n s ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h e s t a t e m e n t is i n E n g l is h .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: Ja.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : D i d y o u r e a d t h e s t a te m e n t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: I have read it.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
10

D id y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h e c o n te n ts o f t h e

s t a te m e n t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

I

u n d e r s ta n d

it

c o m p le t e l y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : As - if w e g o th r o u g h t h is s t a t e m e n t a r e t h e r e
a n y c o r r e c ti o n s y o u w is h t o m a k e to t h e s t a te m e n t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s C h a ir. O n p a g e
1 th e r e i s a m in o r s p e lli n g m is t a k e i n m y n a m e . J u s t f o r th e r e c o r d I
want to correct it.

I t is n o t C o r n e li u s b u t C o r n e l is w i t h o u t t h e U .

Please take out the U.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: So would …?
20

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : W o u l d t h e c o r r e c t s p e ll i n g b e C - O - R - N - E - L - IS?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Thank you.

A r e t h e r e a n y o t h e r fu r th e r

c o r r e c t io n s y o u w is h to m a k e ?

Page 121 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s C h a ir.

I refer

t o p a r a g r a p h s 4 , s ix , e ig h t , n i n e , 1 7 a n d 1 8 . M y e m p l o y e r ’s n a m e w a s
s p e l t i n c o r r e c t ly. I t is N e u m a n b u t th e c o r r e c t s p e l li n g is N - E - U - M- A - N .
P l e a s e c o r r e c t i t li k e t h a t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u M r Th e r o n . D o y o u n o w … ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a t is a ll - th a t is

all thank you.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

D o y o u n o w c o n fir m t h e c o r r e c tn e s s o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: Pardon.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

D o y o u c o n fir m t h e c o r r e c t n e s s o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Subject to those corrections?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
20

Th a n k y o u .

Mr T h e r o n p l e a s e te ll t h e C h a ir

w h a t y o u c u r r e n tl y d o fo r a l iv in g ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : C h a ir I a m - I a m a
r e tir e d d a ir y f a r m e r a n d f o r t h e l a s t f o u r y e a r s I a m a n e s t a te a g e n t i n
the town of Memel.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w h e r e d o y o u s ta y ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : I s ta y i n M e m e l .

Page 122 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

D o y o u h a v e a n y e x p e r i e n c e r e l a ti v e t o t h e

d a ir y f a r m i n g in d u s tr y ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

C h a ir I w a s a d a ir y

f a r m e r m y s e l f f o r 3 4 y e a r s a n d f o r s ix y e a r s I w a s a d a ir y m a n a g e r f o r
the Neuman Farming Enterprising.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w h o is Mr N e u m a n ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : It w a s m y e m p l o y e r.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w h e r e w a s M r N e u m a n ’s f a r m l o c a te d ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
10

Halfway between

M e m e l a n d Vr e d e .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d d i d M r N e u m a n w o n th is f a r m o r w a s h e
le a s in g i t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e ll h e - h e o w n s

a b o u t 3 0 0 0 0 h e c t a r e s i n th a t a r e a . S o t h a t is - t h a t w a s h is o w n f a r m .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d h o w la r g e w a s th is f a r m
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: 30 000 hectares.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W h a t e x p e r t is e i f a n y M r T h e r o n w o u l d b e

r e q u ir e d in m a n a g i n g a d a ir y fa r m ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
20

Well

good

d is c i p l i n e , g o o d k n o w le d g e f o r f e e d in g th e c o w s , s e e i n g t o th e i r h e a l t h
a n d v e r y i m p o r ta n t i s t o m a n a g e t h e l a b o u r.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C a n y o u r e p e a t th a t a g a i n p l e a s e ?

To

manage …
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
m a n a g e th e l a b o u r.

Page 123 of 163

( In t e r v e n e s )

to

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

And what factors would you consider to be

k e y in a d a ir y fa r m ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e l l I t h i n k th e

b i g g e s t f a c to r is t h e b o tt o m li n e is w h e t h e r y o u a r e m a k i n g a s p r o f i t o r
not.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w o u l d t h in g s s u c h a s w a t e r, ir r i g a t io n b e
q u i te k e y i n a d a ir y f a r m ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s .

W a te r is l i fe .

Wa t e r m e a n s p r o d u c ti o n o f f e e d w h ic h i s a k e y e l e m e n t in p r o d u c i n g
10

m il k . Ye s . Yo u c a n n o t g o w i t h o u t w a t e r.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

O k a y.

C a n w e th e n t u r n to p a g e 2 o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t s ta r t in g a t p a r a g r a p h 6 th e r e o f ?

Yo u n a r r a t e e v e n t s t h a t

t o o k p la c e in o r a r o u n d t h e m i d d l e o f t h e y e a r 2 0 1 2 . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : C a n y o u p l e a s e t e ll th e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d
during this time?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

C h a ir

I

was

a p p r o a c h e d b y m y e m p l o y e r t h a t w e w i ll h a v e a v i s i t fr o m a d e l e g a ti o n
fr o m t h e n e w p r o j e c t Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t a n d t h e y w a n t e d t o s e e h o w
20

w e a r e d o i n g t h i n g s b e c a u s e w e w e r e a - a m o d e l d a ir y f a r m in t h e
Vr e d e a r e a a n d t h e y w a n t e d to s e e h o w w e a r e d o i n g t h i n g s …
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
a r r iv e d a b o u t 2 0 p e o p l e o n t h e f a r m .

And that day there

F o u r o f w h i c h w a s fr o m t h e

m u n i c i p a li t y a n d p l u s / m i n u s 1 6 w a s fr o m a n E s ti n a d a ir y c o m p a n y fr o m

Page 124 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
I n d ia .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C a n I ju s t g o b a c k to w h a t y o u s a i d ?

Yo u

s a i d t h a t y o u w e r e i n fo r m e d b y y o u r e m p l o y e r ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Is th is M r N e u m a n ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d d i d h e t e l l y o u w h o c o n ta c te d h i m ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: No.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : H e d i d n o t te ll y o u ?
10

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: No.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : O k a y. T h e n y o u h a v e j u s t to l d th e C h a ir th a t
o n t h a t d a y t h e r e w a s a d e l e g a ti o n o f p e o p le w h o w e n t t o t h e f a r m .
Which farm would this be?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

I t w a s th e f a r m o f

m y - m y e m p l o y e r Mr N e u m a n a n d h e o r d e r e d m e t o s h o w t h e p e o p l e
a r o u n d o f h o w w e a r e - w e r e d o in g th i n g s .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w h y w e r e y o u r e q u e s te d t o s h o w p e o p le
h o w y o u w e r e d o in g th i n g s ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
20

Because

I

was

a c k n o w l e d g e d a s a g r e a t e x p e r t - e x p e r t o n d a ir y f a r m i n g d u e t o m y
lo n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex p e r i e n c e .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
d a ir y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 125 of 163

L o n g t i m e d o in g

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: And he - they - they
e x p e c t m e t o k n o w e v e r y th in g a n d t o s h o w - s h o w th e p e o p le h o w w e
a r e d o i n g t h in g s ?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Mr T h e r o n c a n I a s k y o u t o j u s t m o v e y o u r

m ic a b i t f o r w a r d . A p p a r e n tl y th e r e is te c h n ic a l is s u e s b e c a u s e y o u a r e
t o o c l o s e . T h a t is b e t t e r. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . S o t h e s e p e o p l e w h o
c a m e t o t h e f a r m w h o w e r e y o u t o l d th e s e p e o p l e w e r e ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : W e ll I w a s to l d t h a t
it w a s a d e l e g a t io n fr o m t h e E s t i n a D a ir y C o m p a n y fr o m I n d i a a n d a l s o
10

fr o m t h e Vr e d e M u n ic i p a l i ty.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d w h a t d id y o u d o in r e la t io n t o th is

r e q u e s t o f s h o w i n g t h e m h o w t h i n g s a r e d o n e ? As y o u h a v e p u t i t a t
M r N e u m a n ’s d a i r y fa r m .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
a r r iv e d i n t h e i r c a r s .

Ja.

W e ll

they

M o s tly M e r c e d e s B e n z ’s a n d I s h o w e d t h e m

a r o u n d o n t h e f a r m . F r o m r e a r i n g t h e c a lv e s , t h e m i lk in g p r o c e s s i ts e lf
a n d w h e r e th e c o w s w e r e i n t h e c a m p s . F e e d in g - w h e r e th e y w e r e f e d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Yo u e a r li e r m e n ti o n e d t h a t th e r e w e r e f o u r

p e r s o n s fr o m t h e m u n ic ip a li ty. D i d I g e t t h a t c o r r e c tly ?
20

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: That is correct your
h o n o u r.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: And who were these persons?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Th e o n e w a s th e

M a y o r M r J o h n M o t a u n g a n d th e o th e r t h r e e I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r b u t t h e y
w e r e r e la t e d t o th e M u n ic i p a li ty.

Page 126 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : C a n I c o n f ir m th e s p e l li n g o f M o t a u n g a s y o u
h a v e i t a t p a r a g r a p h 7 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t? Is t h a t M - O - T- A- U - N - G ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

And what role did Mr Motaung play in this

m e e ti n g ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well he did not

s h o w m u c h in t e r e s t b u t j u s t s tr o l li n g a r o u n d w i t h u s .

I was a bit

d is a p p o in t in g a b o u t h is u n d e r s t a n d in g o f t h e d a ir y b u s in e s s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
10

A n d w h o w a s le a d i n g t h is d e l e g a ti o n t h a t

v is it e d t h e fa r m ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e l l a s I - i t is a

lo n g ti m e a g o b u t I - a s I r e m e m b e r i t w a s t h e v e t a n d I h a v e fo r g o t te n
h is n a m e . Th e v e t fr o m I n d i a a s w e ll a s M r P r a s a d .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : W h e n y o u s a y t h e v e t f r o m I n d i a is th e C h a ir
t o u n d e r s ta n d t h a t t h e v e t w a s o f I n d i a n d e c e n t?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

That

is

correct

C h a ir.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Fr o m I n d ia ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: Ja.
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d y o u s a y a s fa r a s y o u r e c a ll M r P r a s a d

w a s a ls o p r e s e n t?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d t h e o th e r p e o p l e i n th e d e le g a ti o n y o u

h a v e to ld th e C h a ir a b o u t 2 0 p e o p le h a v i n g v is i t e d th e f a r m .
correct?

Page 127 of 163

Is th a t

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

O f t h e 2 0 y o u s a y a b o u t f o u r w e r e o ff ic ia ls

in c l u d i n g M r J o h n M o t a u n g . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a t l e a v e s o n my c o u n t a b o u t 1 6 p e o p l e

b e i n g p r e s e n t . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d fr o m t h a t 1 6 y o u s a y t h a t s o m e o n e w h o
was the vet was present?
10

M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d y o u d o n o t r e c a l l h is o r h e r n a m e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: No.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Wa s t h e p e r s o n m a le o r fe m a l e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: Pardon.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Wa s t h e v e t m a l e o r f e m a l e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: Male?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d i n a d d i ti o n t o th e v e t y o u s a y p o s s i b ly

M r Pr a s a d ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: Ja.
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

And who were the remaining people of the

d e l e g a ti o n ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
a n d I - I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e ir n a m e s .

W e ll i t w a s In d i a n s

I t is i m p o s s i b l e t o j u s t - 1 6

p e o p l e a n d r e m e m b e r th e i r n a m e s . I - I a m n o t t h a t g o o d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

I f w e t u r n t o p a r a g r a p h 7 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t

Page 128 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
w h ic h is o n p a g e 2 o f t h a t b u n d l e y o u m a k e a c o m m e n t a b o u t y o u r
o b s e r v a t i o n s r e l a t iv e to t h e I n d i a n d e l e g a ti o n . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C a n y o u p le a s e t e l l y o u r - t h e C h a ir a b o u t

y o u r o b s e r v a t io n s in t h i s r e s p e c t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Can

you

repeat

y o u r q u e s ti o n C h a i r ?
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : I w il l d o s o . A t - a r e y o u a t p a r a g r a p h 7 …
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: Ja.
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Of your statem ent?

Yo u a r e - y o u m a k e a

c o m m e n t a b o u t y o u r o b s e r v a ti o n r e la t iv e t o t h e I n d i a n d e l e g a t io n .

Is

that correct?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d c a n y o u p l e a s e t e ll t h e C h a i r w h a t y o u

o b s e r v e d in r e s p e c t o f t h e I n d i a n d e l e g a ti o n ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : W e l l d u r i n g o u r v is i t
t o t h e f a r m y o u c o u ld - I m e n t io n e d t h a t s o m e o f th e s e p e o p l e s tic k
t o g e th e r a n d th e o t h e r g o in g o n th e i r o w n w a y.

T h a t is w h y I

u n d e r s t a n d it t h a t t h e y w e r e - s o m e w e r e f r o m I n d i a a n d t h e o t h e r n o t .
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

S o w h e n y o u s a y s o m e w e r e fr o m I n d i a a n d

t h e o th e r s w e r e n o t h o w w e r e y o u a b l e t o d r a w t h i s d is ti n c t io n th a t y o u
h a v e j u s t m a d e b e t w e e n t h o s e y o u s a y w e r e fr o m In d ia a n d t h o s e y o u
s a y w e r e n o t fr o m I n d i a ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well I - I have

ju d g e d t h e m o n t h e q u e s ti o n s - t h e ty p e o f q u e s t io n s t h e y a s k e d m e . I

Page 129 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
h a v e s e e n th a t t h e - t h e p e o p l e f r o m I n d i a w a s w e l l e x p e r i e n c e d i n
d a ir y f a r m i n g a n d t h e o th e r n o t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

What

in

your

o p in i o n

was

the

v e t ’s

e x p e r i e n c e r e la t iv e t o d a ir y f a r m in g ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well I could he

k n o w s s o m e t h i n g a b o u t t h e d a ir y b u t h e w a s n o t a n e x p e r t a n d t h a t h e
w a s n o t u s e d t o t h e s i t u a t io n i n S o u t h A f r i c a a n d e s p e c ia ll y in t h e Fr e e
S t a te .

E v e r y th i n g w a s n e w f o r h i m .

T h e d i s e a s e s e tc e t e r a a n d t h e

f e e d i n g c i r c u ms t a n c e s .
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

I a m s o r r y.

C a n y o u p l e a s e r e p e a t th a t

a g a in ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: Well it was clear to
m e t h a t t h e v e t w a s n o t u s e d to th e c ir c u m s t a n c e s i n t h e Fr e e S t a te
c o m p a r in g to t h a t in I n d ia b e c a u s e in I n d i a y o u h a v e a tr o p ic a l c li m a t e
w h ic h i s m u c h d i ff e r e n t f r o m t h e d r y n e a r l y a r i d c li m a t e i n t h e F r e e
S t a te . S o s h o u l d d i ffe r e n t - b e - b e d i ff e r e n t.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

O k a y.

S o w h e n y o u w e r e s h o w in g th is

d e l e g a ti o n h o w y o u w e r e o p e r a ti n g a t M r N e u m a n ’s f a r m t h e C h a ir is to
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u w e r e d o in g a w a l k a b o u t. Is t h is c o r r e c t ?
20

M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d h o w lo n g d id th is l a s t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

It lasted for about

two hours.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : N o w i f a p e r s o n d o e s n o t h a v e e x p e r ie n c e in
m a n a g in g a d a ir y f a r m w o u ld th e w a l k a b o u t b e s u ffi c i e n t i n e q u ip p in g

Page 130 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t h e m t o m a n a g e a d a ir y f a r m ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

N o C h a ir.

T h a t is

t o t a lly i m p o s s ib le . J u s t t o m e n t io n o n e e x a m p le . To A I - t o - t o d o a n
A I C o u r s e o n - o n a n a n i m a l w il l t a k e y o u a b o u t a w e e k a n d t o …
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d w h a t is …
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: And to …
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: And can I just interrupt what is an AI Course?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

A r t i fic i a l

in s e m i n a t i o n .
10

A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s . P l e a s e c o n ti n u e .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

And to learn about

f e e d i n g t h e r i g h t s t u ff t o c o w s is a b o u t a t h r e e y e a r u n i v e r s i ty d e g r e e .
S o in t w o h o u r s y o u c a n n o t b e c o m e a p r o fe s s io n a l a n d j u s t w a lk in g
t h r o u g h a fa r m b u t it w i ll g i v e y o u a n i d e a .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : W h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d a f te r y o u g a v e t h e m t h e
w a lk - a ft e r t h e w a l k a b o u t a t M r N e u m a n ’s d a ir y f a r ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
d e l e g a ti o n

le f t

but

about

a

month

l a te r

I

W e ll
was

the

-

contacted

th e
by

Mr Ashok Narayan …
20

A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: And he asked me to
c o m e t o J o h a n n e s b u r g . T h e y w a n t t o s p e a k f u r th e r t o h i m - to g i v e h i m
f u r th e r a d v ic e a n d c o n s u l ti n g th e m in e r e c t in g d a ir y p r o j e c t a t Vr e d e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Can I refer you to paragraph 10 of your

s t a te m e n t a n d t h a t a p p e a r s fr o m p a g e 3 o f t h a t b u n d l e ? Yo u h a v e j u s t

Page 131 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
t o l d t h e C h a ir t h a t i t w a s a b o u t a m o n t h l a te r.

Is t h is a m o n t h l a t e r

fr o m t h e v is i t a t th e fa r m ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d y o u s a y y o u w e r e c o n ta c te d b y M r A s h o k
a n d i s t h e s p e ll in g th e r e N - A- R - A - Y- A- N a t c h a p te r - p a r d o n m e .

At

p a r a g r a p h 1 0 o f y o u r s ta t e m e n t t h e s p e ll in g o f M r A s h o k ’s s u r n a m e ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Yo u s a i d h e c o n t a c t e d y o u .

How did he

c o n ta c t y o u ?
10

M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : By p h o n e .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d w h a t d id h e s a y ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

H e to ld m e t h a t

t h e y w a n t t o c o n t in u e w i th t h e p r o j e c t b u t t h e y n e e d s o m e e x p e r t a d v ic e
in p l a n n in g t h e w h o le p r o j e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : W h e n h e s a id t h e y d o y o u r e c a ll w h o h e w a s
r e fe r r i n g t o ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well I was under

t h e i m p r e s s io n th a t h e s p o k e fo r t h e E s ti n a G r o u p .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
20

Ye s a n d d i d h e t e l l y o u w h e r e th is m e e ti n g

w o u ld t a k e p la c e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s .

He gave me

a n a d d r e s s in S a x o n w o l d w h e r e I s h o u l d m e e t h i m a t 9 o ’ c lo c k t h a t
m o r n in g .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d d id h e te ll y o u w h o w o u l d b e a t te n d i n g

t h e m e e ti n g ?

Page 132 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s .

H e to ld m e

t h a t m y e m p l o y e r Mr N e u m a n w o u ld a l s o b e a t t e n d i n g .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s . N o w if y o u tu r n a g a in t o p a r a g r a p h 1 0
o f y o u r s t a te m e n t . Yo u s p e a k a b o u t u r g e n c y. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : J a . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C a n y o u e x p l a i n to t h e C h a ir w h a t t h i s

urgency you speak of was about?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

C h a ir

as

I

-

I

u n d e r s t o o d i t - u n d e r s t o o d it , it w a s a b o u t th e l a r g e n e s s o f th e p r o j e c t.
10

I m e a n R 1 b il li o n to b e s p e n t o n a d a ir y p r o j e c t i s e n o r m o u s a n d I th i n k
t h e y t h e m s e l v e s b e c o m e a fr a id o f t h e e n o r m i ty o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d t h e y t h e y - t h a t is w h y i t w a s s o u r g e n t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Is th a t w h a t w a s s a i d t o y o u ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

No that was my -

what I …
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Yo u r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s s e s s m e n t?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : A fl e id in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w a s y o u r a s s e s s m e n t?
20

M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : J a . T h a t is r i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s .

S o M r N a r a y a n c a l ls y o u a n d h e a s k s

y o u to m e e t h i m i n J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d h e s a y s t h a t t h is m e e ti n g w il l
t a k e p la c e - p l a c e i n S a x o n w o ld . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Page 133 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Did he say where in Saxonwold?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s . T h e y g a v e m e
a s tr e e t a d d r e s s . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e a d d r e s s a n y m o r e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s .

S o a ft e r t h is c o n v e r s a t io n o v e r t h e

p h o n e w it h M r N a r a y a n w h a t t h e n h a p p e n e d ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well me - I - I

r e p o r t e d i t to m y e m p l o y e r t h a t t h e y i n v i t e d m e to g o t h e r e a n d h e s a i d
t o m e t h a t h e w a n te d to g o w it h m e …
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d …
10

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
t h e p r o j e c t b e tw e e n u s a n d w e t h o u g h t a h .

A n d w e d is c u s s e d

Here as a - as the boere

s a y s . W h e n i t r a in s p a p y o u m u s t s k e p . T h a t is th e …
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that. Please just repeat that.
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : A s t h e b o e r e s a id it is a s a y i n g . W h e n it r a in s p a p y o u m u s t s k e p .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e r e a li s e d

th e

e n o r m i ty o f th is p r o je c t a n d t h o u g h t a h n o w w e c a n s e ll o u r c o w s a t a a t a h u g e p r ic e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s a n o p p o r t u n i ty ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s .

S o y o u h a v e t h i s d is c u s s i o n w i th

M r N e u m a n . Yo u a r e in a g r e e m e n t t h a t t h e r e i s a n o p p o r t u n i ty f o r y o u
t o s e ll y o u r c a t tl e ?

Page 134 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d d id y o u a c c e p t M r N a r a y a n ’s m e e t in g

in v i te ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d d id y o u g o t o S a x o n w o l d a t t h e a d d r e s s
provided to you by Mr Narayan?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d h o w s o o n a ft e r t h e t e l e p h o n e c a ll w i t h

M r N a r a y a n d id y o u g o to S a x o n w o l d ?
10

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: Well that was about
a week.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s . C a n y o u r e c a l l w h e th e r t h e p r o p e r ty a t
w h ic h t h is m e e t i n g w a s t o t a k e p l a c e w a s a n o ff ic e o r a r e s i d e n t ia l
p r o p e r ty ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

No.

I was not

a w a r e w h e th e r it w a s e i th e r o f t h e m b u t w h e n I a r r iv e d t h e r e I s a w t h a t
it w a s th e r e s i d e n t i a l p r o p e r ty.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n y o u a r r iv e d a t
t h e p r o p e r ty ?
20

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well I never in my

li fe h a v e s e e n s u c h s e c u r i ty - s e c u r i ty a t t h e g a t e a s w e l l i n t h e p a r k i n g
area.

W h e n I s t o p p e d , t h e r e w a s t h r e e g u a r d s e s c o r ti n g m e t o t h e

house.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s a n d w e r e th e y e x p e c t i n g y o u ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s . T h e y t o o k m e

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s tr a ig h t t o M r A s h o k N a r a y a n .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Is - s o y o u d r iv e t o t h e p r o p e r ty. Yo u a r e m e t
b y a b o u t t h r e e s e c u r i ty p e r s o n n e l a t th e g a te a n d t h e y t a k e y o u t o
Mr Narayan inside the premises?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

That

is

correct

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you …?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Did you see …?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. D i d y o u d r iv e t o g e t h e r w i t h y o u r e m p lo y e r
10

o r s e p a r a t e ly ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

No.

We - we went

s e p a r a t e l y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . S o y o u a r r iv e d o n y o u r o w n ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : T h a n k y o u C h a ir a n d y o u w e r e t h e n ta k e n t o
Mr Narayan?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
20

Did you

m e e t a n y o n e e ls e

other

than

Mr Narayan?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: No.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : D id y o u k n o w w h o s e p r o p e r ty th e m e e ti n g a t
w h ic h y o u h a d g o n e b e lo n g e d ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well we were not

in f o r m e d b u t I - a t th a t s t a g e I t h o u g h t i t w o u l d a p r o p e r ty o f E s t in a …

Page 136 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : B e c a u s e t h a t is th e
o n ly n a m e w h i c h e v e r w a s m e n t i o n e d t o m e .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s . S o y o u th e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say you were not informed?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ja.

Of

w h ic h

p r o p e r ty it w a s . N o , I w a s n o t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o s e p r o p e r ty i t w a s ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : N o C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t in f o r m e d ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: No.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, b u t y o u t h o u g h t i t m u s t b e …
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Es t in a ’s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Es t in a ’s ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

S o y o u a r e th e n m e t b y

M r N a r a y a n . H a s Mr N e u m a n a r r iv e d a t t h i s p o i n t?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
20

Well

he

arrived

a b o u t a n h o u r l a t e r.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

O k a y.

S o w h a t t h e n h a p p e n s a ft e r y o u a r e

m e t b y Mr N a r a y a n ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e ll w e tr ie d t o

id e n t i fy t h e - t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e t in g a n d / o r t h e a g e n d a a n d w e b e c a u s e w e c a n n o t g iv e a d v i c e i f w e d o n o t h o w - k n o w h o w t h e t h i n g s

Page 137 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s t ic k in g in t o e a c h o t h e r a n d t h e n M r As h o k N a r a y a n t o l d u s t h a t h e w a s
s o r t o f m e d ia t o r b e t w e e n E s t i n a , t h e Vr e d e M u n i c i p a l it y a n d t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r i c u l tu r e o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e a n d t h a t h e p e r ti n e n t ly to ld
u s t h a t M r A c e M a g a s h u l e w a s i n v o l v e d a n d th a t w a s a k e y p r o je c t fo r
h i m t o b e p u s h e d th r o u g h …
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: Now you …
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

And

it

should

succeed.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s . Is t h a t w h a t h e s a i d ?
10

M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Now just at the outset of this meeting what

w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f Mr N a r a y a n ’s r o le i n r e s p e c t o f E s ti n a ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well he was very

s e r io u s a b o u t t h e w h o le p r o j e c t a n d I - I c o u l d s e e t h a t h e w a s n e r v o u s
C h a ir. T h a t h e s h o u ld s u c c e e d .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k t h e q u e s ti o n is w h e t h e r y o u w e r e a b l e t o t e l l

w h a t h i s r o l e w a s i n Es t in a .

W h e t h e r h e w a s a m a n a g e r o f E s ti n a , a

d ir e c t o r o r w h a t i t w a s .
20

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: No. He was just a ju s t a r e p r e s e n ta t iv e y o u r h o n o u r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t a r e p r e s e n t a ti v e ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Page 138 of 163

But

a

m e d ia t o r

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
b e t w e e n th e t h r e e m a jo r r o le p l a y e r s i n t h i s p r o j e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr i g h t. S o y o u - y o u d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d h i m t o
b e p a r t o f E s ti n a b u t y o u u n d e r s to o d h i m t o b e fr o m o u t s i d e E s ti n a b u t
a p p o i n t e d a s a r e p r e s e n t a ti v e o f Es t in a ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

That

is

correct

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : Yo u a ls o m a d e m e n ti o n o f y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g
o f Mr N a r a y a n ’s r o le a n d I u s e t h e w o r d “ m e d i a t o r ” i n q u o ti n g y o u . N o w
10

in r e la t io n t o M r Ac e M a g a s h u le w h a t w a s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f
M r N a r a y a n ’s r e l a t i o n s h ip w i t h M r M a g a s h u l e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e ll C h a ir I c a m e

u n d e r th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t Mr N a r a y a n w a s v e r y n e r v o u s e v e r y t i m e w e
t a lk a b o u t M r Ac e M a g a s h u le a n d h e w a s n o t a b l e t o p u t a ll t h e c a r d s
on the table.

H e k e p t t h e m c l o s e t o h is b r e a s t .

So - and that - that

m a k e s u s a b i t s u s p ic i o u s a b o u t th e w h o le p r o j e c t .
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : S o w h a t w a s t h e p u r p o s e o f t h i s m e e t in g ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Th e p u r p o s e w a s

fr o m m e a n d m y e m p l o y e r ’s s i d e t o a d v i c e a n d c o n s u lt - b e c o n s u l t a n ts
20

for the project.

To g e t o ff t h e g r o u n d a n d t o b e i m p le m e n t e d

s u c c e s s fu ll y.
A D V R E F I L O E M O L E F E : A n d in a d v is in g a n d c o n s u lt i n g w e r e y o u to l d
w h o y o u w o u l d b e e n g a g i n g w i t h i n y o u r r o l e a s a d v is o r s a n d
consultants - to use your words?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S T H E R O N : Ye s . H e - M r As h o k

Page 139 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
r e fe r r e d m e a t t h e e n d o f th is m e e t in g t o t h e v e t . Th a t v e t fr o m I n d i a
w h ic h n a m e I c a n n o t r e c a ll n o w a n d a s t u d e n t - a y o u n g s t u d e n t w h ic h
came with him.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE: And who were these people introduced as?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: Pardon.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Who – you speak of the vet, correct?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Yo u a ls o s p e a k o f a y o u n g s t u d e n t.

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ja.

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

T h e v e t t h a t y o u r e fe r to i s it th e s a m e v e t

y o u m e t i n F r e e S t a te d u r i n g t h e w a lk a b o u t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d y o u a ls o s p e a k o f a y o u n g s t u d e n t , i s

that correct.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

W h o w a s th is y o u n g s t u d e n t i n tr o d u c e d a s ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS H ERMANUS THERON:

A s I u n d e r s to o d i t

a t t h e t i m e th e y w a n t e d t o a p p o i n t h i m a s m a n a g e r o f t h e w h o l e p r o je c t.
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d d i d t h e y t e ll y o u w h a t h i s e x p e r ie n c e i s

in f a r m in g ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s , t h e y d i d n ’ t t e l l

m e b u t I c o u ld s e e a t th a t s ta g e h e h a d n o e x p e r ie n c e o f d a ir y o f t h a t –
s o b i g a d a ir y, h e w a s n ’ t e x p e r ie n c e d , h e d i d n o t h a v e e n o u g h
e x p e r i e n c e t o m a n a g e s u c h a b i g p r o je c t.

Page 140 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d w a s t h e r e a n y d i s c u s s io n a r o u n d w h a t

t h e n a t u r e o f h i s e x p e r ie n c e i s ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON:

N o t s p e c i fi c a ll y b u t

in o u r d is c u s s i o n s i t c a m e o u t th a t h e k n o w s n o t h i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h e n y o u s a y y o u c o u l d te ll th a t h e d i d n o t h a v e
e x p e r i e n c e t h a t is b a s e d o n t h e d i s c u s s io n y o u h a d w it h h i m ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

And the vet yes

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e v e t , j a , o k a y.
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

S o y o u m e e t a t t h e p r o p e r ty y o u h a v e

d e s c r ib e d a s b e i n g l o c a t e d i n S a x o n w o l d , y o u m e e t w i th M r N a r a y a n
a n d y o u s a y t h a t Mr N e w m a n j o in s a n h o u r l a t e r, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

That is correct yes.

A n d h o w l o n g w a s y o u r m e e ti n g w i t h Mr

Narayan before you started speaking to the vet and the young
g e n tl e m a n y o u s p e a k o f ?
MR

JOHANNES

CORNELIS

H ERMANUS

THERON:

W e ll

our

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h M r A s h o k N a r a y a n w a s a b o u t t h r e e h o u r s , f r o m n in e
t o t w e lv e .
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s , a n d d i d y o u a n d M r N a r a y a n c o m e t o

any agreement?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

Ye s , a s I t o ld y o u

b e f o r e w e t r i e d t o s e ll o u r, w e s a w th e o p p o r tu n it y to s e ll o u r c a t tl e a t a
g o o d p r ic e , a n d h e to l d u s n o t h e y a r e n o t in t e r e s te d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d y o u e a r l ie r s a i d t h a t h e h a d s o u g h t

Page 141 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
a d v ic e a n d c o n s u lt i n g a s s is t a n c e f r o m y o u r e la t iv e to d a ir y fa r m i n g ,
w a s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

S o a f t e r m e e ti n g w i th M r N a r a y a n w a s i t M r

N a r a y a n w h o t h e n i n tr o d u c e d y o u t o t h e v e t a n d t h e y o u n g m a n a t t h e
s a m e m e e ti n g ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

No that was a

d i ff e r e n t m e e ti n g .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
10

B u t w a s i t a t t h e s a m e p r o p e r ty ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

At the same

p r o p e r ty.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

On the same day?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

O n t h e s a m e d a y,

t h e m e e t in g w i t h M r N a r a y a n w a s i n th e d in in g r o o m , t h e m e e t in g w i t h
the vet was on the stoep.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s , a n d w h a t d id y o u d i s c u s s b e tw e e n

y o u r s e l f a n d th e v e t a s w e ll a s t h e y o u n g g e n tl e m a n w h o y o u s a y y o u
w e r e t o l d w o u l d b e m a n a g i n g t h e d a ir y f a r m .

20

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

Ja, they told us

they

asked

want

to

m ilk

a

th o u s a n d

cows,

so

th e y

me

what

in fr a s tr u c t u r e t h e y s h o u ld n e e d t o m il k a t h o u s a n d c o w s , w h a t t h e f e e d ,
h o w m u c h fe e d t h e y n e e d , h o w th e fo ll o w - fl o w s h o u ld l o o k a n d h o w –
w h a t d is e a s e s a r e in t h e a r e a , w h i c h t h e y s h o u l d b e a w a r e o f .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W h e n y o u s a y t h a t t h e y s a id t h e y w a n te d to

m il k a th o u s a n d c o w s w h a t w a s t h e fr e q u e n c y, w o u l d th is b e a th o u s a n d

Page 142 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
c o w s d a il y o r h o w fr e q u e n t d i d t h e y i n t e n d t o m i lk th e s e c o w s ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e l l t w ic e a d a y a

thousand.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

S o t h a t w o u l d b e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

A thousand cows

m il k e d t w ic e a d a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

M ilk e d t w ic e a d a y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i s th a t n o r m a l – is t h a t fr e q u e n c y i n m il k i n g c o w s
q u i te – e v e r y m o n th ?
10

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

J a , s o m e ti m e s y o u

c a n g o to t h r e e ti m e s m il k i n g b u t t h e n it ’s – t h a t is v e r y h a r d w o r k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

It is very hard work, so but it depends as long

a s t h e c o w s h a v e g o t t h e m il k t h e n y o u c a n m il k t h e m tw o o r t h r e e
ti m e s a d a y.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS H ERMANUS THERON:

J a , C h a ir a c o w is

p r o d u c in g m il k c o n ti n u o u s ly, e v e r y m in u t e s h e is p r o d u c i n g m ilk , b u t i f
y o u a d d a n o t h e r m ilk in g t h e r e is m o r e s p a c e in t h e u d d e r a n d th e n s h e
c a n p r o d u c e m o r e m i lk , t h e r e ’s s p a c e t o p r o d u c e m o r e m i lk , b u t w h e n
t h e u d d e r i s f u ll s h e p r o d u c e s l e s s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Th a n k y o u .

So they told you about their

in t e n t io n s a n d w h a t d o y o u a n d Mr N e w m a n s a y ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e l l w e r e a li s e d

t h a t is q u i te a b i g o p e r a ti o n b e c a u s e a n o r ma l d a ir y in t h e Vr e d e a r e a
is a b o u t 8 0 c o w s b i g .

S o t h a t – t h is w a s a n e n o r m o u s d a ir y t o b e

Page 143 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
e r e c te d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d w a s th e r e a n y a d v ic e t h a t y o u s h a r e d

w i t h t h e m a t t h is m e e t i n g ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

J a , I t o ld t h e m th e

b i g g e s t p r o b l e m w a s t o p r o d u c e e n o u g h fe e d f o r th e c o w s a n d t o b u y i n
a s l it t le a s p o s s i b l e b e c a u s e a d a ir y c o w n e e d s v e r y r e fi n e d fo o d ,
either pastures or lucern or alfalfa which should be bought in, and the
Vr e d e a r e a t h e o n l y t h i n g g r o w i n g th e r e is m e a l ie s a n d g r a s s , s o I
q u e s t io n e d t h e ir d e c i s i o n t o e s t a b l is h t h e d a ir y i n t h e Vr e d e a r e a ,
10

b e c a u s e m o s t o f t h e Fr e e S t a t e f a r m e r s o r a l o t o f th e m h a v e a lr e a d y
m o v e d d o w n t o t h e C o a s t, t h e S o u t h e r n C a p e o r N a t a l w h e r e t o p r o d u c e
m il k is m u c h c h e a p e r, s o t h e r e w a s a q u e s ti o n r a i s e d b y m y w h y i n
Vr e d e .

Th a t w a s a c c o r d in g t o m e I t h i n k i t w a s a s tu p id d e c is i o n t o

p r o d u c e m i lk i n t h e m o s t d i ff ic u l t a r e a in t h e c o u n tr y, fo r s u c h a b ig
project.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
them

what

was

your

Ye s , s o a ft e r h a v i n g t h i s c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h
i m p r e s s io n

about

the

vet

and

th e

young

g e n tl e m a n ’s u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f c li m a t e s i n d a ir y
f a r m in g ?
20

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e ll th e y w e r e

q u i te s u r p r i s e d w h e n I t o l d t h e m a b o u t th e c li m a t e , t h e y d id n ’t e x p e c t
it , b e c a u s e t h e y w e r e u s e d to I n d ia ’s p l e n ty o f r a i n t h e r e , a n d n o t t h e
h a r s h w i n te r s w e h a v e h e r e i n t h e F r e e S t a te , s o I t h o u g h t t h e r e
a w a it e d a s u r p r is e f o r t h e m , a n d I t h i n k t h e y r e a li s e d th a t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d d id th e y s h a r e w i t h y o u h o w t h e y

Page 144 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
b e c a m e i n v o lv e d i n t h e p r o je c t?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

S o r r y I d o n ’t

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s t io n ?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

D id th e y t e l l y o u h o w th e y b e c a m e in v o lv e d

in t h e d a ir y p r o j e c t ?
MR

JOHANNES

CORNELIS

H ERMANUS

THERON:

Well

as

I

u n d e r s t o o d it t h e y w e r e i n v o l v e d i n E s ti n a ’s p r o j e c ts in I n d i a .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

O k a y, a n d h o w d i d t h e m e e t i n g c o n c l u d e h o w

did it end?
10

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well after I told

t h e m a b o u t t h e d is e a s e s i n t h e a r e a w e c o v e r e d a b o u t e v e r y t h i n g in th e
m a n a g e m e n t o f th e d a ir y a n d t h e y w e r e s a ti s f i e d a n d w e c o n c l u d e d i t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

N o w h a v in g s p o k e n t o t h e m o v e r a c o u p l e o f

h o u r s a s y o u h a v e s a i d w h a t w a s y o u r i m p r e s s io n o n t h e ir c a p a b il i ti e s
o r e x p e r t is e i n r u n n i n g a n d m a n a g i n g a d a i r y f a r m i n t h e Vr e d e a r e a ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS H ERMANUS THERON:

W e ll I r e a l is e d t h e y

w e r e in f o r a b i g s u r p r is e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

O k a y.

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:
20

And I was proved

r ig h t b e c a u s e a lo t o f t h e ir a n i m a ls d i e d a f te r th e y b o u g h t i n , a b o u t s ix
m o n th s a f te r t h e y b o u g h t i n q u i t e e x p e n s i v e a n i m a ls a n d g o o d a n i m a l s
t h e y s ta r t d y in g d u e to d i s e a s e s t h e y d id n o t u n d e r s ta n d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s , s o s ti ll a t th is m e e ti n g i n S a x o n w o l d

y o u ’v e h a d a d i s c u s s io n w i th N a r a y a n , y o u h a v e a ls o h a d a d is c u s s io n
w i t h th e v e t a s w e l l a s a y o u n g In d ia n m a n . D i d y o u m e e t a n y o n e e ls e

Page 145 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
at the property?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

N o t h a t w a s th e

o n ly p e o p l e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

D i d y o u th e n l e a v e a f t e r y o u r m e e t in g ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s b u t a s a g r e e d

w i t h Mr A s h o k h e p a i d m e fo r c o n s u l ti n g f e e s a s w e ll a s f o r m y
tr a v e l li n g f e e s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d w h e n d i d y o u a g r e e w i th M r N a r a y a n o n

these fees?
10

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

W h e n h e fir s t

p h o n e d m e t o t e l l m e th a t t h e y n e e d m e f o r c o n s u lt i n g I to l d h i m , t h e n
w e a g r e e d a r o u n d t h e a m o u n t.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o w h e n h e in v i t e d y o u t o c o m e to t h i s m e e t in g M r

N a r a y a n t o l d y o u th a t t h e p u r p o s e w a s f o r h i m to c o n s u l t y o u o n
m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o th is p r o j e c t , h e to l d y o u ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s , a n d w h a t – w h y d i d h e s a y, d i d h e s a y w h y h e

n e e d e d y o u r e m p l o y e r to b e t h e r e a s w e l l?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

N o h e d id n ’t t e ll

me that.
CHAIRPERSON: He didn’t say but he said your employer would come
a l o n g a s w e ll ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Page 146 of 163

J a , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t in t h e d is c u s s i o n th a t y o u h a d w i t h y o u r e m p l o y e r
a ft e r t h is t h e t w o o f y o u r e a l is e d t h a t t h e r e c o u ld b e a n o p p o r tu n i t y t o
s e l l y o u r c a t t le t o t h e m ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

That is correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , n o w th e d is c u s s i o n s th a t h a p p e n e d b e tw e e n y o u
a n d Mr N a r a y a n a t t h is r e s i d e n c e d i d i t in v o lv e y o u r e m p l o y e r
t h r o u g h o u t a f te r h e h a d a r r i v e d o r w a s t h e r e s o m e d i s c u s s io n b e f o r e h e
a r r iv e d a n d h e ju s t j o i n e d i n o n t h e w a y ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS H ERMANUS THERON:
10

N o h e jo i n e d in

fr o m t h e b e g in n in g o f t h e m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u d i d n o t s t a r t t h e m e e t in g , t h a t is y o u a n d M r
N a r a y a n i m m e d i a te ly a ft e r y o u h a d a r r i v e d , b e c a u s e y o u s a i d y o u r
employer came about an hour later?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u d i d n o t s t a r t d is c u s s in g y o u w a it e d f o r h i m ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

No.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t w a it ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

N o C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t s ta r t?
20

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well we started

h a v i n g t e a . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u ta lk e d b u t t h e r e a l s t u ff , n o t t h e r e a l b u s in e s s ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a t ’s r i g h t , t h e

s e r io u s m e e ti n g s t a r ts w h e n m y e m p l o y e r a r r iv e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

O k a y b u t b a s ic a lly t h e m e e ti n g w a s u s e d f o r Mr

Page 147 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
N a r a y a n t o g e t a d v ic e o n v a r i o u s a s p e c ts o f t h e p r o j e c t a n d r u n n in g a
d a ir y in Vr e d e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

J a , t h a t is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

M r Th e r o n y o u e a r li e r

m a d e m e n t io n to a n a m o u n t o f o n e b il li o n r a n d i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

That is correct.

Where do you get this amount from?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
10

A t t h a t m e e ti n g

w h e r e m e a n d m y e m p lo y e r w a s , a tt e n d e d , M r A s h o k N a r a y a n t o l d u s
b e c a u s e w e a s k e d h i m w h e r e w il l th e m o n e y c o m e fr o m f o r t h is p r o j e c t ,
b u t w h a t w a s t h e s e n s e in d is c u s s i n g it i f t h e r e i s n o m o n e y a v a il a b l e
a n d h e c o n fir m e d to u s th a t E s ti n a w i ll p u t d o w n 3 0 0 m i ll io n a n d
7 0 0 m i lli o n w il l c o m e fr o m t h e G o v e r n m e n t f o r t h e p r o je c t.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s , a n d a t p a r a g r a p h 1 4 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t

o n p a g e 3 y o u g iv e y o u r o p i n i o n o n o r s h a r e y o u r v i e w s o n th is a m o u n t
o f R 1 b il li o n , c a n y o u p le a s e t e ll t h e C h a ir a b o u t y o u r v i e w s i n r e s p e c t ?
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S TH E R O N :

J a C h a ir o n e

b i ll io n r a n d is a l o t o f m o n e y a n d a t t h a t ti m e a r o u n d 2 0 1 2 a l o t o f d a ir y
20

f a r m e r s w e n t o u t o f p r o d u c ti o n b e c a u s e i t w a s n o m o r e p r o fi t a b l e a n d
t o p u t d o w n a d a ir y a n d s t a r t in g o ff a d a ir y w a s t o a n a m o u n t o f
R 3 0 m i ll io n a b o u t m o r e o r l e s s , s o w e c o u ld n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y, w h a t
t h e m o ti v e o f E s ti n a w a s a n d th e w h o l e G r o u p , w a s i t to p r o d u c e mi lk ,
t o g e t m i lk , o r w a s i t t o p u t e m e r g i n g f a r m e r s o n t h e g r o u n d .
I f i t w a s t o p r o d u c e m i lk th is w a s th e w r o n g o p t io n , a n d t o o

Page 148 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
e x p e n s iv e , th e y r a t h e r c o u l d fu n d e x i s t i n g d a ir y f a r m e r s , c o m m e r c i a l
f a r m e r s t o g e t th e m i lk i f th a t w a s t h e ir m o t iv e . S o I d o n ’ t th i n k t h e y
w e r e q u i t e s u r e o f t h e ir o w n m o t iv e s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h e n p a r a g r a p h 1 7 a n d 1 8 o f y o u r s t a te m e n t

a s i t a p p e a r s a t p a g e 4 o f th e b u n d le y o u s e t o u t w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e
y o u a n d Mr N e w m a n ’s in t e r e s t i n t h e p r o j e c t . Yo u h a v e e a r l i e r – is th a t
c o r r e c t – y o u h a v e e a r l ie r to l d t h e C h a i r t h a t y o u s a w a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o
s e l l c a tt l e t o E s t i n a , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
10

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

That is correct.

A n d a t w h a t c o s t w e r e y o u a n t ic ip a ti n g t o

s e l l c a tt l e t o E s t i n a ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

W e ll a t th a t ti m e

t h e g o in g p r ic e o f d a ir y c a t tl e w a s a b o u t R 8 0 0 0 d e p e n d i n g o n t h e
q u a li ty b u t w e t h o u g h t w e c o u ld g o u p – m a y b e w e c o u l d g e t R 1 2 0 0 0 a
c o w.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a t y o u w o u l d s e l l i t fo r R 1 2 0 0 0 a c o w ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ja, because at that

stage we thought that was a good price.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
20

I u n d e r s t o o d y o u to s a y th a t t h e c o w s t h a t

y o u i n t e n d e d t o s e ll w e r e s e ll in g a t a p p r o x i m a t e ly R 8 0 0 0 a t t h a t t i m e ,
is t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
we aimed for a bit more.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s r a i n i n g ?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Oh I see.

Page 149 of 163

Th a t is c o r r e c t b u t

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ja.

C H A I R P E R S O N : It w a s r a i n i n g .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Th a n k y o u C h a i r.

And paragraph 18 of your

s t a te m e n t s t il l o n t h e s a m e p a g e y o u t h e n s p e a k to t h e s u p p l i e r o f p la n t
a n d – d a i r y p l a n t , p a r d o n m e , a n d e q u ip m e n t, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

C a n y o u p l e a s e te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t it is y o u

s e t o u t i n th a t r e s p e c t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
10

C h a ir w e s e e

a n o t h e r p o s s i b i li t y o f m a k in g a f e w r a n d s , a n d k n o w in g w h a t e x p e n s i v e
m a c h in e r y t h e y n e e d e d a t th e p r o j e c t w e to ld t h e . . . [i n d is t in c t ] o r t h e
a g e n ts o f th e p e o p l e w h o i s p u tt i n g i n t h e m a c h i n e s , t h e s u p p li e r s o f
t h e m a c h i n e s a n d t h e s t o r a g e t a n k s th a t t h e r e is a n o p p o r tu n i t y t h e y
c a n g e t b u s in e s s a n d t h e y w e r e s o th a n k f u l t h e y t o l d u s t h e y w i ll g iv e
u s o n e p e r c e n t o f th e p r e s s u r e c o s t fo r p u tt i n g i n t h e m a c h i n e r y, a n d
t h a t w a s a b o u t R 6 m i lli o n a n d m e a n d M r N e w m a n r e c e i v e d e a c h R 3 0
0 0 0 , th a t w a s R 6 0 0 0 0 .
CHAIRPERSON:

So

when

you

c o u ld n ’ t

use

the

o p p o r t u n i ty

s u c c e s s fu ll y w i th t h e c o w s y o u u s e d i t w i t h th e e q u i p m e n t ?
20

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( l a u g h in g ) o k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

And can you recall what type of equipment or

m a c h in e y o u h a d r e c o m m e n d e d t o b e s o ld b y Al f a L a v a l t o E s ti n a ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Page 150 of 163

W e l l C h a ir o u r

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n w a s to p u t i n a 3 0 p o i n t r o ta r y m ilk i n g m a c h in e t o m i lk
t h a t a m o u n t o f c o w s a n d t h e s t o r a g e a t h o u s a n d c o w s s h o u ld g iv e y o u
a b o u t 3 0 0 0 0 li tr e s o f m il k p e r d a y s o y o u n e e d s t o r a g e c a p a c i ty o f
a b o u t 6 0 0 0 0 l it r e s a n d t h a t w a s w h a t w e r e c o m m e n d e d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d h o w m u c h d id t h is m a c h i n e c o s t ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

The machine cost

a b o u t – w e ll a l l th e e q u i p m e n t c o s t a b o u t R 6 m i ll i o n .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d w o u ld t h a t b e t h e f a i r m a r k e t v a l u e ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
10

Ye s , t h a t w o u l d b e

t h e f a ir m a r k e t v a lu e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Yo u a ls o to l d t h e C h a ir t h a t y o u r s e l f a n d M r

N e w m a n e a c h r e c e iv e d R 3 0 0 0 0 ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A n d y o u r e c e iv e d t h is R 3 0 0 0 0 f r o m w h o ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Fr o m t h e s u p p li e r

of the equipment.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d is o n e t o u n d e r s t a n d t h i s t o b e i n

r e l a ti o n t o r e c o m m e n d i n g th e m t o Es t in a ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A s a s p o t t e r ’s f e e ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

J a , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

J a , t h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

R i g h t, t h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 1 9 o f y o u r

s t a te m e n t , s ti ll o n p a g e 4 o f y o u r b u n d le y o u s e t o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d
s o m e f e w m o n t h s l a te r, is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Page 151 of 163

J a t h a t is c o r r e c t .

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

P le a s e te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d .

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

Can you repeat

y o u r q u e s ti o n p l e a s e ?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

P l e a s e te ll t h e C h a ir w h a t h a p p e n e d a s y o u

have set it out at paragraph 19 of your statement.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Oh, paragraph 19.

C h a ir a g a in I s e e a n o p p o r t u n i ty in m y c a r e e r t o b e p a r t o f th is b ig
p r o j e c t a n d m a y b e b e c o m e m a n a g e r, I h a v e i d e n ti f ie d a n o p p o r t u n i ty,
s o I w e n t t o M r P r a s s a d , h e w a s t h e o ffic e m a n a g e r i n Vr e d e a n d to ld
10

h i m t h a t I w a s w il li n g t o h e l p t h e m i n m a n a g i n g th e p r o j e c t .

At that

s t a g e it w a s t h e s t a g e w h e n t h e c a t t le s t a r t e d d y i n g o n t h e fa r m a n d I
f e l t t h a t m y s e r v i c e s w o u ld b e a p p r e c i a t e d th e r e , a n d t h a t t h e y d id n o t
manage.

S o I w a s h o n e s t in o ff e r in g m y s e r v i c e s to t h e m , b u t t h e y

w e r e v e r y s e n s i tiv e a t t h a t s t a g e o f t h e c a t tl e d y i n g , s o t h e y c h a s e d m e
a w a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

D id – b e f o r e s p e a k i n g t o M r Pr a s s a d , a n d

a ft e r y o u r m e e t in g a t S a x o n w o ld d i d y o u s p e a k t o a n y o n e i n r e s p e c t o f
t h e d a ir y p r o je c t ?

D i d y o u – le t m e r e p h r a s e m y q u e s ti o n , p a r d o n m e

M r T h e r o n , a ft e r y o u r m e e t in g a t S a x o n w o l d d i d y o u h e a r f o r m M r
20

Narayan again?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

No, from Mr

Narayan?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s .

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Well I phoned him

a b o u t m a n a g i n g , h e lp i n g th e m m a n a g i n g t h e p r o j e c t a n d h e w a s v e r y

Page 152 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s e n s i t iv e a n d h e r e fe r r e d m e to M r Pr a s s a d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W h e n y o u s a y h e w a s v e r y s e n s i t iv e w h a t d o

you mean?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e l l I g e t th e

i m p r e s s io n th a t h e w a s n o t i n c o n tr o l a n d h e r e f e r r e d i t t o Mr P r a s s a d .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d is t h a t t h e r e a s o n y o u w e n t to s e e Mr

Prassad?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
10

That is correct.

A n d y o u s a y M r Pr a s s a d – y o u a g a in u s e d

t h e w o r d s e n s i tiv e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ja.

W h a t d i d Mr P r a s s a d s a y t o y o u ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

No he just closed

t h e d o o r in m y fa c e . H e w a s v e r y h a r s h t o m e .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s a n d y o u h a v e ju s t t o l d t h e C h a ir th a t

t h a t th is w a s d u r in g t h e ti m e w h e n t h e c a t t le s t a r t e d d y in g ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

That is correct.

T h e n a t p a r a g r a p h 2 0 o f y o u r s t a t e m e n t , in

f a c t b e f o r e m o v i n g o n t o p a r a g r a p h 2 0 d i d y o u d o a n y t h i n g e ls e i n
20

r e l a ti o n t o t h e Vr e d e D a ir y P r o j e c t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

N o , I d id n o t d o

a n y th in g e ls e ?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Then if we m ove to paragraph 20 of your

s t a te m e n t , t h a t is o n p a g e 5 , y o u s p e a k a b o u t M r J o h n M o t a u n g i s t h a t
correct?

Page 153 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

That is correct.

W h a t i s i t t h a t y o u a r e t e l li n g th e C h a ir

about Mr John Motaung?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

C h a ir in Vr e d e i t

w a s g e n e r a l k n o w l e d g e , o r a s th e y s a y d o w n t h e g r a p e v in e y o u g e t t h e
in f o r m a ti o n , d o w n t h e g r a p e v i n e t h a t M r M o ta u n g r e c e iv e d a b r a n d n e w
b l a c k 4 5 0 M e r c e d e s M L fo r h is p a r t , h is r o l e - p l a y in g t o a r r a n g e t h e
K r y n a a u w s l u s t F a r m o n a 9 9 y e a r le a s e f o r E s t i n a b u t I h a v e n e v e r
s e e n t h e c a r, a n d n o b o d y t o l d m e i t f ir s t h a n d , t h a t w a s c o m m o n
10

k n o w l e d g e i n t h e d is c u s s i o n s th e r e i n to w n .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

So you do not have personal knowledge of

that?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

No, no.

T h e n th e l a s t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y, it w a s a r u m o u r ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a rumour?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Mmm.
20

ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

T h e n th e l a s t i s s u e t h a t

y o u h a v e d e a l t w i th i n y o u r s ta t e m e n t r e l a te s t o t h e t e r m i n a t io n o f th e
le a s e o f M r N e w m a n ’s f a r m a n d t h a t y o u d e a l w i t h a t p a r a g r a p h 8 o f
y o u r s t a te m e n t , s o y o u m i g h t j u s t h a v e to t u r n a f e w p a g e s b a c k , t h a t i s
page 2.

Is th a t c o r r e c t ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Page 154 of 163

That is correct.

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W h a t k n o w l e d g e d o y o u h a v e a b o u t th e

t e r m in a ti o n o f t h e le a s e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

W e ll m y k n o w le d g e

is t h a t t h e p r o j e c t p e o p l e b e c o m e d e s p e r a te t o g e t t h e la n d th e f a r m
K r y n a a u w s l u s t to in i ti a te t h e d a ir y p r o je c t.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

W h ic h p e o p l e ?

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

W e ll it w a s E s ti n a ,

a l l th e r o l e - p l a y e r s , a n d t h e y p u t a l o t o f p r e s s u r e o n M r M o t a u n g a s
M a y o r o f Vr e d e t o g e t r i d o f t h e N e w m a n s fr o m t h e – t o g e t t h e m o u t o f
10

t h e c o n tr a c t, t h e l e a s e c o n tr a c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A n d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o m e th i n g y o u h a v e p e r s o n a l k n o w l e d g e o f o r
is t h a t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s , y e s , I

p e r s o n a l ly a tt e n d e d th e m e e ti n g s b e t w e e n M r N e w m a n a n d M r M o t a u n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

I n M r N e w m a n ’s

h o u s e , i n h is o ffi c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

I attended it

p e r s o n a l ly.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w a s i t Mr M o t a u n g w h o w a s te ll in g Mr N e w m a n

about the pressure.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e l l a c tu a lly h e

b e g g e d h i m t o b e k i n d a n d f o r th e s a k e o f t h e p r o je c t t o g e t r i d o f t h e

Page 155 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
c o n tr a c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

C a n y o u r e c a ll w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s j u s t o n e

m e e ti n g o r m o r e t h a n o n e m e e ti n g ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

There was about

t h r e e m e e ti n g s .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
10

And what was discussed at the three

m e e ti n g s .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

At the three

m e e ti n g s i t w a s a ll b a s ic a lly t h e s a m e , t o g e t r id o f t h e l e a s e c o n tr a c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

Ye s , a n d w h a t k n o w l e d g e d o y o u h a v e a b o u t

t h e s u b s e q u e n t t e r m i n a t io n o f t h e l e a s e ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e l l a c t u a l ly I d o

n o t u n d e r s t a n d y o u r q u e s t io n .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

A f t e r t h o s e m e e ti n g s d o y o u k n o w w h a t t h e n

e v e n t u a l ly h a p p e n e d ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
20

W e ll m y e m p l o y e r

w a s s y m p a th e ti c a g a in s t t h e p r o j e c t a n d h e s a id w e ll h e w il l l e t g o h is
c o n tr a c t a n d c a n c e ll e d t h e c o n tr a c t .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Did he say anything about how he would be

c o m p e n s a t e d b y th e m u n i c i p a li ty o r a n y b o d y f o r l o s i n g o u t o n th e
b a l a n c e o f t h e p e r io d o f t h e l e a s e ?

Page 156 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

No he did not

in s is t o n a n y c o m p e n s a t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e d i d n o t i n s is t o n a n y ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

No, no.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

That was just a

g e s tu r e o f g o o d w i ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y.
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:
10

T h a n k y o u M r T h e r o n , i s t h e r e a n y t h i n g e ls e

y o u w is h t o b r i n g t o t h e C h a ir ’s a t te n ti o n a b o u t th is p r o j e c t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

N o I t h i n k th is w a s

lik e ta p p i n g b l o o d o u t o f a s to n e , t h e r e is n o t h i n g e ls e I c a n m e n ti o n .
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

T h a n k y o u M r Th e r o n .

C h a ir w e h a v e n o

f u r th e r q u e s t io n s f o r Mr T h e r o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Yo u s a id y o u to o k – y o u s a i d t h i s w a s a

s t u p i d p r o j e c t t o b e d o n e in Vr e d e , j u s t e l a b o r a t e o n t h a t , te ll m e w h y
y o u s a y th a t?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e l l C h a ir lo t s o f

f a r m e r s s t o p p e d t h e ir d a ir y o p e r a t io n s i n t h e Fr e e S t a t e , f r o m H e i l b r o n
20

r ig h t th r o u g h Vr e d e , H a r r is m i t h , B e t h le h e m , F ic k s b u r g b e c a u s e it w a s
not paying anymore.

I t w a s t o o e x p e n s iv e t o p r o d u c e f o o d f o r th e

c a t tl e h e r e , a n d t h e m il k p r i c e a s t o o lo w. T h e r a t io f r o m m il k p r i c e a n d
f o o d p r ic e w a s n o t r i g h t , s o t h e y a r e m o v i n g d o w n to t h e c o a s t a l a r e a s ,
N a t a l a n d S o u t h e r n C a p e , Ts i ts ik a m m a a n d t h e r e th e y s u r v iv e a n d
m a k i n g h u g e s u c c e s s e s , s o t h a t w a s m a k i n g m e r a is in g m y e y e b r o w s .

Page 157 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is th e r e a s o n w h y y o u s a y it w a s n o t w is e t o h a v e
t h is p r o je c t i n Vr e d e s i m p ly t h a t th e – i t w a s d i ff ic u l t t o p r o d u c e m il k
p r o f i ta b ly b e c a u s e th e p r ic e w a s n o t .. . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h e p r i c e r a ti o .

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e p r ic e r a t io w a s n o t . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , th e r e w a s n o b a l a n c e .

I n b a la n c e .

Mr T h a b e th e w h o w a s th e

H e a d o f D e p a r t m e n t o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f A g r ic u l t u r e in t h e Fr e e S t a t e
G o v e r n m e n t a t t h e ti m e , I d o n ’ t k n o w i f y o u e v e r m e t h i m , y o u k n o w o f
10

him?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS T HERON: No, no.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , h e s a y s h e t e s t if i e d h e r e a n d s a i d t h e o n ly r e a s o n
w h y o th e r f a r m e r s h a d m o v e d o u t o f Vr e d e o r h a d s t o p p e d p r o d u c i n g
m il k i n t h a t p l a c e , in t h a t a r e a , w a s t h a t t h e r e w a s a p r o b l e m w i t h th e
tr a n s p o r t , tr a n s p o r t in g m i lk , th e c o s t s , a n d h e m e n ti o n e d t h e p r ic e a s
w e ll , m a y b e t h a t ’s t h e b a la n c e y o u a r e t a l k in g a b o u t t h a t t h e r e w a s n o
balance between the cost and what you get.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

That is right.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t h e s a i d t h e y th o u g h t th e y t h o u g h t t h e y w o u l d
20

a d d r e s s t h a t p r o b l e m b y t h e i n t e r v e n ti o n o f g o v e r n m e n t b e c a u s e y o u
s e e h e w a s s a y in g i n e ffe c t i f y o u a r e a f a r m e r y o u a r e p r o d u c i n g m il k
a n d t h e r e is t h is c h a l l e n g e o f t h e tr a n s p o r t c o s t a n d t h e p r ic e a n d y o u
a r e o n y o u r o w n t h a t m i g h t b e d i ff ic u l t , b u t i f y o u a r e g o i n g t o – i f
G o v e r n m e n t is g o i n g t o c o m e i n a n d a s s i s t i n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r y o u
m i g h t b e a b l e to c o n ti n u e , w h a t d o y o u s a y to t h a t ?

Page 158 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

N o C h a ir, t h e i d e a

o f p r o c e s s i n g y o u r o w n p r o d u c t to a d d v a l u e t o y o u r o w n p r o d u c t t h a t is
a v e r y g o o d i d e a . I f t h a t s u c c e e d t h e n t h e p r o j e c t c o u ld b e s u c c e s s f u l .
T h e c o s t o f tr a n s p o r t a ti o n , t h e a r g u m e n t o f tr a n s p o r t a ti o n is n o t f o r m e
a g o o d a r g u m e n t , b u t . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h e a r g u m e n t fr o m

M r Th a b e t h e t h a t th e tr a n s p o r t a t i o n c o s t is th e m a i n p r o b l e m is n o t
c o r r e c t b e c a u s e t h e s e d a y s p e o p le t r a n s p o r t m i lk f r o m C a p e To w n u p t o
10

J o h a n n e s b u r g , fr o m P o r t E liz a b e t h to J o h a n n e s b u r g , t h a t is n o t r e a ll y a
p r o b le m , b u t w h e r e G o v e r n m e n t c o u l d h a v e p l a y e d a r o l e w a s i n
c r e a ti n g a m a r k e t f o r th a t v a lu e a d d e d p r o d u c t s , t h a t w o u l d s o lv e th e
p r o b le m .
CHAIRPERSON:

H o w w o u ld t h e y c r e a t e t h e m a r k e t a s f a r a s y o u

u n d e r s t a n d . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

W e ll a s I s e e i t

w i t h G o v e r n m e n t c o n t r a c t s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d h o s p i t a l s b u y t h is m il k o r s o m e t h in g l ik e t h a t?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:
20

T h a t is c o r r e c t,

G o v e r n m e n t in s ti t u t i o n s c o u ld b u y th e m il k .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t w o u ld h a v e s o lv e d t h e p r o b l e m .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

Schools, School

F e e d in g S c h e m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R J O H A N N E S C O R N E L I S H E R M A N U S TH E R O N :

Page 159 of 163

Could be a

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
s o l u ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ja.

S o t h a t c o u l d h a v e d e a l t w i t h th e p r o b l e m o f t h e

imbalance.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ja, because our

p e o p l e n e e d s p r o t e i n , e s p e c i a l ly o u r c h il d r e n a n d G o v e r n m e n t c o u l d
t a k e i n i ti a ti v e t h e r e a n d p r o d u c e p e o p l e w i t h g o o d f o o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o w y o u s a y i n y o u r s t a t e m e n t y o u h a v e b e e n
10

in v o lv e d in d a ir y f a r m i n g f o r a t le a s t 4 0 y e a r s , i s t h a t r i g h t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , th e s e 4 0 y e a r s a ll w i th i n t h e Fr e e S ta t e o r in

d i ff e r e n t p a r ts o f t h e c o u n t r y ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

N o h a lf o f it w e r e

in N a t a l , N o r th e r n N a t a l , a n d th e o t h e r h a l f w a s i n t h e Fr e e S t a te .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e Fr e e S t a t e .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o y o u a r e q u i t e k n o w le d g e a b l e .
20

MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

That is correct.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , b u t I s e e a ls o t h a t y o u d o h a v e a B C o m d e g r e e ,
is t h a t r i g h t ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a t i s c o r r e c t s ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h ic h y o u g o t fr o m t h e U n iv e r s i ty o f th e F r e e S t a t e i n
1976?

Page 160 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , i t in v o lv e d , d i d i t h a v e a n y t h i n g t o d o w i t h

f a r m in g ?
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HER MANUS THERON:

Ye s . I h a v e d o n e

a g r ic u lt u r a l e c o n o m i c s a s o n e o f m y s u b je c ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

Ja.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y. N o t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . M s M o l e fe is
10

t h e r e a n y th in g ?
ADV REFILOE MOLEFE:

N o C h a ir, t h e r e is n o t h i n g , t h a n k y o u .

C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h i n g . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h M r Th e r o n fo r c o m i n g
f o r w a r d to g i v e e v id e n c e .
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: We appreciate it very much, you are excused.
MR JOHANNES CORNELIS HERMANUS THERON:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

C h a ir m a n th is is

ju s t a r e q u e s t t h a t y o u c o n fir m t h e d a t e s o n w h ic h M s R o c k m a n w i ll b e
20

a p p e a r i n g b e fo r e t h e C o m m is s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d w e s a i d 1 6 a n d 1 7 ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir m a n .

Ye s , I p r e v io u s ly s a i d t h a t Ms R o c k m a n w o u ld g iv e

evidence on the 14th and 15th of October and I said that was
p r o v i s i o n a l . T h e f i n a l d a t e s a r e n o w 1 6 a n d 1 7 O c t o b e r. C lo s e r t o t h e

Page 161 of 163

08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
d a t e I w il l in d ic a t e w h e th e r w e w il l s t a r t a t n o r m a l ti m e o r a t a n o t h e r
ti m e a n d M s R o c k m a n a n d h e r la w y e r s c a n b e in f o r m e d a t t h a t ti m e ,
next week.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir m a n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a n d th e n Mr T h a b e t h e ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A l l i n d ic a t io n s C h a ir m a n a r e th a t t h e 2 8 t h

o f O c to b e r i s t h e p r e f e r r e d d a t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
10

M s B u t h e l e z i h a s b e e n tr y i n g t o s o r t t h a t

o u t f o r u s w h il e w e h a v e b e e n h e r e a n d t h a t is w h a t s h e h a s t e x t e d
b a c k to u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s o s h o u l d w e c o n fi r m i t n o w o r t h e r e is j u s t s o m e
d is c u s s io n ?
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

I th i n k w e s h o u l d w a i t C h a ir m a n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d t h e n m a y b e t o m o r r o w.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:

A n d p o s s i b ly . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]

CHAIRPERSON: Or as soon as possible.
ADV LEAH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Ye s s ir.

Ye s , o k a y, a lr i g h t , t h a t c o n c l u d e s w h a t w e n e e d to

d e a l w it h t o d a y ?
ADV LEACH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

I t d o e s C h a ir m a n .

Ye s , a n d t h e n I c a n d i s c u s s w it h y o u i n c h a m b e r s

something relating to Denel.
ADV LEACH GCABASHE SC:
CHAIRPERSON:

C e r t a in ly C h a ir.

O t h e r w is e w e w i ll a d j o u r n , to m o r r o w w e w il l s t a r t a t

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08 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 179
n o r m a l ti m e . W e a d j o u r n .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 9 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

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