C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U I RY I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
PA R K TO W N , J O H A N N E S B U R G

10

0 7 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

D AY 1 7 8

20

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
P R O C E E D I N G S R E S U M E O N 7 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9
C H A I R P E R S O N : G o o d m o r n i n g M r M o k o e n a , g o o d m o r n i n g e v e r y b o d y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Good morning D CJ.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e w e s t a r t w i th th e o r a l e v id e n c e I a m g o i n g t o
m a k e a n o r d e r t h a t h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w it h t h e w i t n e s s w h o w il l b e
g iv i n g e v i d e n c e t o d a y.

I t i s a n o r d e r r e l a ti n g t o s o m e a p p lic a ti o n f o r

L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m in e . L e t m e d e a l w i t h t h a t a n d th e n w e c a n s t a r t .
T h e o r d e r th a t I a m g o i n g t o m a k e r e la t e s t o a n a p p li c a t io n t h a t w a s
b r o u g h t b y M r K e v in Wa k e f o r d fo r L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a mi n e Mr A n g e l o
10

A g r iz z i a n d M r Fr a n s H e n d r ic k S t e y n Vo r s t e r w h o p r e v i o u s ly g a v e
evidence in this commission in relation to Bosasa. I am going to make
t h is o r d e r a n d w i ll o n ly g i v e r e a s o n s i f i t b e c o m e s n e c e s s a r y a t a l a t e r
s t a g e . T h e o r d e r I m a k e is th a t
1 . T h e a p p li c a n t ’s n o n - c o m p l ia n c e w i t h th e ti m e fr a m e s p r o v id e d fo r
in t h e r u le s g o v e r n i n g th e c o m m i s s i o n ’s p r o c e e d i n g s in r e la t io n
t o th e o r d e r s s e t o u t b e l o w a n d to t h e e x t e n t n e c e s s a r y
e x t e n d i n g s u c h t i m e fr a m e s - o k a y I a m g o i n g t o r e p h r a s e t h a t.
H e a p p li c a n t’s n o n - c o m p l i a n c e w i t h t h e r i m e fr a m e s p r o v i d e d f o r
in t h e r u le s g o v e r n i n g th e c o m m i s s i o n ’s p r o c e e d i n g s in r e la t io n

20

t o a p p l ic a ti o n s f o r L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e a w it n e s s is h e r e b y
condoned.
2 . T h e a p p l ic a n t i s h e r e b y g r a n t e d i n t e r m s o f R u l e 3 .3 . 6 r e a d w i t h
R u l e s 3 . 4 , 3 . 5 , 3 . 6 , 3 .7 a n d 3 . 8 le a v e t o g iv e o r a l e v id e n c e a n d
t o c r o s s - e x a m in e t h e w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e g i v e n e v id e n c e a n d
i m p l ic a t e d h i m n a m e s M r A n g e l o A g r iz z i a n d Mr Fr a n s H e d r i c k

Page 2 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
S t e y n Vo r s t e r o n s u c h t e r m s a s t h e C h a i r p e r s o n w i ll g iv e a t t h e
commencement of the cross -examination.
3 . T h e a p p l ic a n t i s g r a n t e d le a v e i n t e r m s o f R u l e 3 . 9 t o m a k e
w r i t t e n a n d o r a l s u b m is s i o n s o n t h e p o s s i b le f i n d in g s a n d
c o n c l u s i o n s t h a t t h e c o m m i s s i o n o u g h t t o m a k e o n t h e e v id e n c e
p l a c e d b e fo r e it in s o f a r a s th a t e v i d e n c e r e la t e s to h i m .
T h e c r o s s - e x a m i n a ti o n o f M r A g r iz z i w il l t a k e p l a c e o n W e d n e s d a y t h is
w e e k a n d a t th e c o m m e n c e m e n t o f t h e p r o c e e d i n g s I w il l a n n o u n c e t h e
a m o u n t o f ti m e t h a t I w i ll g iv e th e a p p lic a n t t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e e a c h o n e
10

o f t h o s e t w o w i tn e s s e s .
Ye s M r M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a i r o n t h e 1 5 t h A u g u s t 2 0 1 9 th e

c o m m i s s io n d i s p a tc h e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t o M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a a n d h is
le g a l t e a m w h e r e i n M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a w a s in v i t e d t o a p p e a r b e fo r e
t h is c o m m i s s i o n a n d t o a n s w e r q u e s t i o n s b y t h e c o m m is s i o n ’s l e g a l
team.

A n d o n t h e 5 t h S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 9 t h e c o m m i s s i o n d is p a tc h e d a

le t t e r t o M r Z u m a a n d h i s le g a l te a m r e s p o n d in g t o a l e tt e r w h ic h w a s
in a d v e r te n tl y n o t r e s p o n d e d t o o f th e 2 0 t h J u n e 2 0 1 9 w h e r e M r Z u m a
a n d h is le g a l t e a m w e r e a s s u r e d t h a t t o d a y w h e n w e c o m m e n c e w i t h
20

t h e p r o c e e d in g s t h e y w o u ld n o t b e p o s tp o n e d a n d t h a t w e w i ll – y o u w i ll
n e v e r s t a n d d o w n t h e m a t t e r a s t h e r e w e r e q u e r ie s r e la t in g t o th e
p r e v i o u s s i t ti n g s . F u n d a m e n t a l ly M r C h a ir M r Z u m a w a s a ls o in f o r m e d
t h a t t o d a y h e w i ll b e e x p e c t e d t o a n s w e r q u e s ti o n s in r e l a ti o n to s ix
w i t n e s s e s th a t t e s t if i e d b e f o r e t h i s c o m m i s s i o n a n d th e ir e v id e n c e w a s
p r e v i o u s ly l e d t h r o u g h d i ff e r e n t m e m b e r s o f t h e l e g a l t e a m .

Page 3 of 176

For

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
c o m p le t e n e s s C h a i r t h o s e w i t n e s s e s a r e th e e v id e n c e Mr J o n a s , Mr
D u k w a n a , A d v o c a t e R a m a tl h o d i , A d v o c a te M u o f h e , M r B o o y s e n a n d M r
Sundaram.

A n d t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w a s d u ly a c k n o w l e d g e d a n d

r e c e i v e d b y Mr D u d u z a n e Z u m a ’s le g a l t e a m . M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a is
h e r e t o d a y.

H e h a s a v a i l a b le h i m s e l f t o c o m e a n d a n s w e r th o s e

q u e s t io n s . H e is b e in g r e p r e s e n t e d b y d i ff e r e n t le g a l t e a m s d e p e n d in g
a s t o o n w h ic h m a t te r o n e it is r e f e r r i n g t o m a y I a l l o w t h e m a n
o p p o r t u n i ty to p l a c e th e m s e lv e s o n r e c o r d C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t u s d o t h a t .
10

ADV PIET LOUW:

M r C h a ir I a p p e a r f o r M r Z u m a t o g e th e r w i t h Mr

J o u b e r t in – o n i n s tr u c t io n s f r o m M r Va n D e r M e r w e w h o s i ts n e x t to
him.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : M r C o m m i s s io n e r I a p p e a r o n b e h a l f o f M r
D u d u z a n e Zu m a o n a l l i s s u e s in r e s p e c t o f h e w ill – o f w h ic h h e w i ll b e
c r o s s - e x a m in e d s a v e in r e la t io n t o M r M c e b is i J o n a s i n s tr u c t e d b y M D K
Attorneys Mr Krause.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you very much.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Mr C h a ir i f I m a y p e r h a p s s a y t h e f o l lo w i n g .
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P I E T L O U W : W e – Mr Z u m a h a s n o t b e e n s u b p o e n a e d to b e h e r e
in t e r m s o f th e A c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I w a s g o i n g to m a k e t h a t p o in t a s w e ll .
A D V P I E T L O U W : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 4 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P I E T L O U W : T h a t m e a n s th a t t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n li m i t a ti o n s o n th e
proceedings.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PIET LOUW:

A n d w h a t o u r l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e s c a n a s k o f Mr

Z u m a a n d w h a t h e i s l e g a l ly o b li g e d t o d o i n t h a t r e g a r d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P I E T L O U W : I w a n t t o g iv e y o u t h e a s s u r a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P I E T L O U W : T h a t w e a r e n o t g o in g t o t a k e a n y t e c h n i c a l p o i n ts .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PIET LOUW:

H o w e v e r th e r e m u s t b e a b a s i s l a i d b e f o r e o u r

le a r n e d fr i e n d a n d o f c o u r s e y o u h a v e t o g i v e p e r m i s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P I E T L O U W : Fo r c r o s s - e x a m i n a t io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PIET LOUW:

M r Zu m a is h e r e a s I s a y n o t u n d e r s u b p o e n a b u t

b e c a u s e h e w a n ts t o b e h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PIET LOUW:
20

A n d w e w o u ld e x p e c t o u r l e a r n e d c o ll e a g u e to b e

in t e r e s te d i n w h a t h e h a s t o s a y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm
ADV PIET LOUW:

A n d t h a t o u r l e a r n e d c o l l e a g u e w ill n o t p r e s e n t a

c a s e a g a i n s t M r Zu m a a s i f t h e y a r e in o p p o s i n g c a m p s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P I E T L O U W : A n d I t a k e i t t h a t t h i s c o m m i s s io n w i ll a l s o b e o p e n

Page 5 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
t o a c c e p t w h a t Mr Z u m a h a s t o s a y a n d y o u w i ll m a k e y o u r fi n d i n g s i n
due course.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV

PIET

LOUW:

So

once

again

these

are

not

a d v e r s a r ia l

p r o c e e d i n g s th e y a r e i n q u is it o r i a l a n d w e a r e m e r e ly h e r e to a s s is t in
the process.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V P I E T L O U W : T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : No thank you very much.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r C h a ir s u r e ly t h i s p r o c e e d i n g s w i ll b e
c o n d u c t e d i n t e r m s – w i th i n t h e a m b i t o f t h e R u l e s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n
a n d I th i n k t h e o n e th a t is a ls o p a r a m o u n t w o u l d b e R u l e 3 .2 w h e r e b y
q u e s t io n s s h o u ld b e p o s e d i n o r d e r t o a s s e s s a n d in o r d e r t o g e t t o t h e
tr u th f u l o f t h e e v i d e n c e o f a n y w it n e s s th a t a p p e a r s b e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s s io n .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : F o r t h e p u r p o s e o f th is s e s s io n M r C h a ir
w e w ill b e r e f e r r i n g t o a n u m b e r o f d o c u m e n t s . B e f o r e y o u C h a ir th e r e
m u s t b e t h r e e a r c h l e v e r f il e s . Yo u w i ll s e e C h a ir t h a t a t th e s p i n e o f

20

t h e t w o fi le s y o u w il l fi n d th a t t h e o n e i t i s m a r k e d a s A a n d t h e o n e i t
is m a r k e d a s B .

T h o s e a r e th e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h w e r e r e f e r r e d a n d

r e l i e d u p o n w h e n M r J o n a s w a s le d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d y o u w il l s e e t h a t t h e r e i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is A a n d B ?

Page 6 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is A a n d B .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Th a t r e a l ly r e la t e s t o M r J o n a s a n d f o r

ease of reference.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e p r o p o s e th a t th a t A a n d B .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B e r e f e r r e d t o a s E x h i b i t L L 1 . Yo u w il l
s e e w h e n y o u o p e n – w h e n y o u o p e n a f o l d e r o f t h e fir s t th ic k fi le C h a ir
10

t h e r e m u s t b e a d i v i d e r t h a t a lr e a d y h a s m a r k e d i t Ex h ib i t L L 1 . B u t f o r
e a s e o f r e f e r e n c e y o u c a n a ls o r e f e r to t h e m b e c a u s e t h e y a r e m a r k e d
a t t h e s p i n e a s A a n d B s i m p ly fo r y o u t o b e a b le t o lo c a t e i t w i t h m u c h
more ease.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll i f w e j u s t s a y th e y a r e E x h i b i t L L A , E x h ib i t L L B ,
E x h i b i t L L C w o u l d th a t n o t b e a d e q u a t e ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKO ENA SC : It might not because when you now deal
w i t h d i ffe r e n t w i tn e s s e s w e h a v e n o w c r e a t e d a s e p a r a t e f o l d e r f o r
e a c h . Ev e n t h o u g h t h e n u m b e r i n g m i g h t b e – m i g h t b e c o n ti n u o u s b u t
f o r c o n v e n ie n c e i t b e c o m e s m u c h m o r e e a s y i f y o u k n o w t h a t L L 1 i t is

20

f o r d o c u m e n t in r e s p e c t o f Mr D u k w a n a .

L L 2 is t h e s e c o n d w i t n e s s ,

L L 3 i s t h e f o ll o w i n g w i t n e s s ’ . I f y o u g o t o t h e d o c u m e n t C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s I c a n s e e …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is A . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

I c a n s e e i t is j u s t t h a t t h e w a y w e h a v e d e a l t w i th

E x h i b i ts m o s t o f th e t i m e y o u w i ll r e c a l l i s t h a t I p r e fe r t h a t w h a t t h e

Page 7 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
E x h i b i t i s s h o u l d b e r e fl e c t e d o n t h e s p i n e o f t h e l e v e r a r c h f il e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th a t i f I a m l o o k i n g f o r E x h i b i t L L 1 …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t s h o u ld b e …
CHAIRPERSON : I should see that on the spine.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

I s h o u l d n o t s e e E x h i b it L L a n d th e n I h a v e t o g o

t h r o u g h a d o c u m e n ts .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : In s i d e t o fi n d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : That is one – that is one had hoped that
h a s h a p p e n e d b u t C h a ir w e w il l d e a l w i th t h a t f il e . B u t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s
o f th e q u e s t i o n in g in t h is r e g a r d y o u w i ll s e e t h a t t h e f ir s t f il e g o e s
fr o m p a g e 1 a n d t h e n u m b e r i n g th a t w e a r e r e ly i n g o n b e c a u s e t h e s e
d o c u m e n ts w e r e u s e d fr o m t i m e t o ti m e t h e y m i g h t b e h a v i n g d i ff e r e n t
numberings but.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e a r e g o i n g to r e s tr i c t o u r s e lv e s to th e
red numbering.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t y o u w i l l f in d o n t h e le f t h a n d s i d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d th e n i f y o u g o t o th e f ir s t fi le it m u s t
b e g o i n g fr o m p a g e 1 a n d i t e n d s u p a t p a g e 3 3 4 .
CHAIRPERSON : Are you under A?

Page 8 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I a m u n d e r A C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u s e e w h a t w e c o u l d d o is o n th e s p i n e w e c o u ld

w r i t e E x h ib i t L L 1 to E x h i b i t L L 2 i f i n s i d e th e l e v e r a r c h fi le y o u h a v e g o t
b o t h E x h i b i t L L 1 a n d E x h i b i t L L 2 . S o a t le a s t o n t h e s p i n e t h e r e a d e r is
t o l d w h a t is i n s i d e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : J a w e c a n m a r k t h e t w o fil e s A a n d B .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : As LL1.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B o th o f t h e m 1 .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th e n w e c a n h a v e L L 1 A
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: A.
CHAIRPERSON : And LL1B.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d L L 1 B . Ye s i t m a k e s s e n s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t h a t is f in e . A s l o n g a s w h a t is i n s i d e i f t h e r e i s
d i ff e r e n t e x h i b i t s is r e fl e c t e d o n t h e s p i n e a s w e ll .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o t h a t – t h e t h ir d fi le i s t h e o n e t h a t

n o w h a v e E x h i b i t – t h e L L 2 u p u n ti l L L 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o f o r n o w le t u s m a r k a s t h e C h a i r h a s
p r o p o s e d . Th e fir s t f il e .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A s L L 1 A a n d th e n e x t fi le d e a l i n g w i t h

t h e m a t te r s r e le v a n t t o Mr J o n a s a s L L 1 B . A n th e th ir d fi l e is t h e s m a l l
fi le C h a ir.

Page 9 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u m u s t j u s t – w e m u s t j u s t r e m e m b e r to m a k e
s u r e t h e w i t n e s s e s fi le s a r e a l s o a p p r o p r ia t e l y m a r k e d s o i f w e t a lk
a b o u t E x h i b it L L 1 A , E x h i b i t L L 1 B .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : H e k n o w s e x a c t ly w h ic h f il e y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s i n f a c t w h i le I a m s t il l a d d r e s s i n g

t h e C h a ir s o m e o n e c a n s i m p ly d o t h a t w h i le I a m s t ill a d d r e s s i n g t h e
C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o t e v e n i n t e a ti m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

B e c a u s e i t is g o i n g t o b e e a s y fo r n o w

for reference.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e t h i r d f il e C h a ir y o u w ill s e e t h e
o n e t h a t w a s o n ly m a r k e d C o n t h e s p in e w e c a n t h e n r e f e r t o i t a s
b e c a u s e it is h a v in g – i t is h a v i n g L L 2 u p u n t il L L 7 w e m a r k i t o n t h e
s p i n e to b e L L 2 t o L L 7 . N o t h e Ex h ib i ts .
CHAIRPERSON:
20

S o t h e t h i r d f il e w h ic h i s m a r k e d D u d u z a n e Z u m a

prep bundle C.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

O n t h e s p i n e w il l b e m a r k e d E x h i b it L L 2 t o Ex h ib i t

LL7.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s .

Page 10 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w t h a t fi le C h a ir t h e o n e i t is L L 2 C

y o u w il l s e e i f y o u o p e n i t i t is d iv id e d i n t o s u b - f o l d e r s . F o ld e r n u m b e r
2 i t i s a ll t h e d o c u m e n t s t h a t y o u a r e r e fe r r e d t o w h e n M r M x o li s i
D u k w a n a w a s le d a n d f o l d e r n u m b e r 3 r e l a te s t o a l l t h e d o c u m e n ts
w h ic h w e r e r e l ie d u p o n a n d r e f e r r e d t o w h e n Mr S u n d a r a m w a s l e d .
A n d f o l d e r n u m b e r 4 r e la t e s to th e d o c u m e n ts w h ic h w e r e r e f e r r e d t o
w h e n M r B o o y s e n s w a s le d .
d o c u m e n ts

w h ic h

were

Ramatlohodi w as led.
10

F o l d e r n u m b e r 5 r e la t e s to a ll th e

referred

to

when

Mr

–

when

Advocate

A n d f o ld e r n u m b e r 6 – f o l d e r n u m b e r 7 C h a ir

r e l a t e s t o o n ly t w o d o c u m e n t s .

T h e f ir s t d o c u m e n t i t i s a d o c u m e n t

d e p ic ti n g th e d ir e c to r s h i p o f M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a i n v a r io u s e n ti t ie s a n d
t h e s e c o n d d o c u m e n t r e l a t e s t o – d e p ic ts th e s h a r e h o l d in g w h ic h w a s
h e l d b y M a b e n g e la I n v e s t m e n t w h i c h is a n e n t it y th a t w a s o w n e d b y Mr
D u d u z a n e Z u m a . A n d t w o l a s t d o c u m e n t s C h a ir f o r e a s e o f r e f e r e n c e
w e h a v e a ls o p r o d u c e d t h e A 3 s iz e d o c u m e n ts .

I am not sure if they

f o u n d t h e m s e lv e s i n fi le b e c a u s e t h e y a r e f a r m u c h m o r e l e g i b l e .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l th e l a s t d o c u m e n t s a p p e a r t o m e t o b e

diagrams?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e d i a g r a m s . Th o s e a r e t h e o n e s t h a t
20

y o u a r e r e fe r r i n g t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Th o s e w il l b e th e d o c u m e n ts C h a ir th a t
w e w i ll b e r e f e r r in g t o fr o m t i m e to ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d C h a ir w e a r e r e a d y t o p r o c e e d . M a y

Page 11 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
the witness be sworn in?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s t h a t is fi n e .
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d :
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Duduzane Zuma.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b in d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I do.
10

R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v i d e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e y o u b e t h e
tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o h e lp m e G o d .
CHAIRPERSON :

Th a n k y o u .

Thank you very much.

B e fo r e M r

M o k o e n a y o u – b e f o r e y o u s t a r t M r Z u m a I ju s t w a n t t o e m p h a s is e a
p o i n t th a t y o u r c o u n s e l o r o n e o f y o u r c o u n s e l m a d e is th a t y o u a r e n o t
h e r e b e c a u s e y o u h a v e b e e n s u b p o e n a e d t o b e h e r e . Yo u a r e n o t h e r e
b e c a u s e y o u h a v e b e e n c o m p e l le d to b e h e r e .

Yo u a r e h e r e b e c a u s e

y o u d e c i d e d la s t y e a r w h e n y o u r a p p li c a ti o n fo r L e a v e to C r o s s 20

e x a m in e M r J o n a s w a s b e i n g d e a l t w i th t h a t y o u w o u ld c o - o p e r a t e w i t h
t h e c o m m i s s i o n a n d th a t y o u w o u l d m a k e y o u r s e l f a v a i l a b le to t h e
c o m m i s s io n t o g iv e e v id e n c e . I d i d s a y a t t h e ti m e a n d I w a n t t o r e p e a t
t o d a y th a t I t h in k t h a t w a s a g o o d d e c i s io n . Th is is a n o p p o r tu n i t y
w h e r e w h a t e v e r i t is th a t a n y w i tn e s s m a y h a v e s a i d a b o u t y o u , y o u g e t
a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o p u t y o u r s i d e o f t h e s t o r y a n d th e c o m m i s s i o n h a s n o

Page 12 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
p a r t ic u l a r p r e fe r r e d v e r s i o n .
tr u th .

The co mmission was to just get to the

Yo u p u t y o u r s i d e , o t h e r w i t n e s s e s h a v e p u t t h e ir s i d e . A t th e

e n d o f t h e d a y I w i ll l o o k a t a l l t h e a v e r s i o n s a n d d e c id e w h a t I b e li e v e
t h e tr u t h is .

S o I j u s t w a n t y o u t o – t o k n o w th a t a ll v e r s io n s w il l b e

lo o k e d a t a n d w il l b e c o n s i d e r e d a n d y o u m u s t ju s t p u t y o u r s i d e o f th e
s t o r y. Q u e s ti o n s w il l b e p u t t o y o u b y t h e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r. I n p u t t in g
q u e s t io n s h e t o o d o e s n o t h a v e a n y p a r ti c u la r p r e f e r e n c e f o r a n y
v e r s i o n h e t o o s e e k s t o s i m p ly t r y a n d e s t a b li s h w h a t t h e t r u t h is .

I

m a y a s k y o u q u e s t i o n s a s w e l l I p r o b a b ly w i ll a s k y o u s o m e q u e s t io n s .
10

T h e w h o l e p o i n t is ju s t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u r
v e r s i o n i s . I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t o th e r w i tn e s s ’ v e r s io n is . I m a y h a v e – I
m a y p u t q u e s t io n s t h a t i n d i c a t e t h a t I h a v e s o m e d i ffic u l t y w i th s o m e
a s p e c ts o f e it h e r o f y o u r v e r s i o n o r o f a n o t h e r w i t n e s s ’ v e r s i o n b u t t h a t
d o e s n o t m e a n t h a t t h e r e is a n y v e r s io n t h a t is b e i n g p r e f e r r e d b y t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n .

I t ju s t s e e ms – it j u s t m e a n s t h a t I w a n t t o e s ta b l is h

w h e r e t h e tr u t h li e s . S o i f y o u d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d a n y q u e s t io n f e e l fr e e
t o s a y s o a n d i t w il l b e r e p e a t e d a n d I a m s u r e s o m e o f t h e s e th in g s
y o u r c o u n s e l h a v e e x p l a in e d b u t I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e th a t y o u
understand.
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I u n d e r s ta n d th a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u u n d e r s t a n d . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r Zu m a I h a v e a v e r y l i m i te d ti m e t o

c a n v a s s a n u m b e r o f is s u e s w i t h y o u . W h a t w i ll a s s i s t t h e p r o c e s s in

Page 13 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
o r d e r to s h o r t c ir c u it y o u r e v id e n c e is i f w e c a n a g r e e o n t h e c o m m o n
c a u s e is s u e s ? C o m m o n c a u s e is s u e s a r e t h o s e w h i c h a f te r h a v in g r e a d
a l l th e d o c u m e n ts i t d o e s n o t a p p e a r a s i f t h e r e is a n y d is p u te a r o u n d
them. Do you understand?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I u n d e r s ta n d Mr M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . T h e fi r s t o n e is th a t a m e e t i n g d i d
t a k e p la c e o n t h e 2 3 r d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 , c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s Mr M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Yo u a r e th e o n e w h o a r r a n g e d t h e
10

m e e ti n g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m ig h t …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e m e e ti n g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t w is h – I a m s o r r y t o r a i s e y o u r v o i c e M r Zu m a .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Okay thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o r b r i n g t h e m i c r o p h o n e a li t tl e c l o s e r b u t n o t t o o
c lo s e . J a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Th e m e e ti n g d i d t a k e p la c e a t t h e

20

G u p t a r e s id e n c e , c o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

And you are the one who

suggested the Gupta residence as the venue?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d y o u a r e t h e o n e w h o a ls o d r o v e

Page 14 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M r J o n a s fr o m t h e H y a t t H o te l to t h e G u p ta r e s id e n c e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s Mr M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

At the time you know if you can

ju s t c l a r if y f o r m e – a t th e t i m e w h e n th i s m e e t in g t o o k p l a c e o n t h e
2 3 r d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 w o u ld I b e c o r r e c t th a t y o u w e r e a lr e a d y c o n d u c t in g
b u s i n e s s w i t h t h e G u p t a ’s ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Yo u ta lk in g a b o u t t h e a c t u a l b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O k a y.

A n d a ls o a t t h e ti m e w h e n t h i s

m e e ti n g w a s a r r a n g e d I m e a n i t i s c o m m o n c a u s e th a t y o u r f a th e r w a s
s t il l t h e P r e s id e n t a t th e ti m e , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t M r Z u m a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y. N o w t h e c o m m o n c a u s e is s u e is
t h a t w h e n th is m e e t i n g w a s a r r a n g e d M r J o n a s w a s t h e D e p u t y M i n i s te r
f o r Fi n a n c e , a m I c o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d M r N e n e w a s t h e M i n is t e r o f

Fi n a n c e ?
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s Sir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : And on the 9th December if my memory
s e r v e s m e w e ll I t h i n k o n t h e 9 t h D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 5 t w o m o n t h s a f t e r y o u r
m e e ti n g M r N e n e w a s t h e n d is m i s s e d fr o m h is p o s it i o n , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is th e ti m e fr a m e y e s th a t i s c o r r e c t.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O k a y.

N o w w h e n y o u a r r a n g e d th is

Page 15 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
m e e ti n g w it h M r J o n a s y o u w e r e n o t fr i e n d s , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Fr ie n d s w i t h w h o – Mr J o n a s ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : With Mr Jonas?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o n o t a t a ll .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u d i d n o t c o n d u c t a n y b u s in e s s w i t h

him?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Yo u d i d n o t e v e n s i t i n t h e

s tr u c t u r e s w i t h i n t h e A N C , a m I c o r r e c t ?
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w h a v i n g d e a l t w i th t h o s e c o m m o n

c a u s e i s s u e s I j u s t w a n t t o n o w m o v e t o a n o t h e r t o p i c w h ic h i s th e
G u p t a r e s id e n c e a s t h e c h o s e n v e n u e fo r t h e m e e ti n g , c o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s Sir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u h a v e m a d e o r d e li v e r e d a n

a p p lic a ti o n i n t h is c o m m i s s io n a n d y o u h a v e d e p o s e d to a n a ffi d a v i t i n
s u p p o r t o f y o u r R u l e 3 . 4 a p p l ic a t i o n , d o y o u r e c a ll ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s I r e c a ll .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w I w a n t t o r e fe r y o u to a b u n d l e
20

a n d f o r e a s e o f r e f e r e n c e y o u c a n l o o k a t t h e s p i n e is t h e o n e t h a t w e
h a v e r e f e r r e d to a s L L 1 B . A n d i f y o u m a y t u r n t o p a g e 7 3 5 c o n c e n t r a t e
o n t h e r e d n u m b e r in g s o th a t y o u a r e n o t c o n f u s e d M r Z u m a .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s Sir.
CHAIRPERSON : What page?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 7 3 5 C h a ir.

Page 16 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u w i ll s e e t h a t o n p a g e 7 3 5 t h i s is th e
s t a te m e n t w h i c h y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d t o t h is c o m m i s s io n is s u p p o r t o f
y o u r a p p li c a t io n in t e r ms o f R u l e 3 . 4 w h e r e y o u a p p ly i n g t o p a r t ic ip a t e
in t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s a n d a ls o t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e M r J o n a s . B u t i f y o u
m a y r e fe r t o p a g e 7 3 7 C h a ir.

On page 737 paragraph 7 you told the

C h a ir t h r o u g h y o u r s t a t e m e n t th a t …
CHAIRPERSON :

H a n g o n o n e s e c o n d Mr M o k o e n a . I th i n k th is le v e r

a r c h fi l e i s to o f u l l. M a y b e d u r i n g t h e te a b r e a k a n o t h e r l e v e r a r c h f il e
10

c a n b e u s e d . T h e r e is s o m e t h i n g w r o n g w i t h t h is o r m o v in g fr o m a p a g e
s o m e w h e r e a t t h e b e g i n n i n g t o w a r d s t h e e n d is p r o b le m a t ic . I t i s 7 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

7 3 7 C h a ir w i th p a r t ic u l a r r e fe r e n c e t o

paragraph number 7.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A r e y o u th e r e Mr Z u m a ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : [ In d i s ti n c t ] S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d th e n i n th a t p a r a g r a p h y o u s ta t e d

t h e f o l lo w i n g :
“When
20

these

rumours

s t a r te d

to

s u r fa c e

Mr

H l o n g w a n e i n d is c u s s i o n w i t h m e d e c i d e d t o s e t u p a
m e e ti n g w i t h M r J o n a s i n a n a tt e m p t t o c le a r i t u p .
As

Mr

Jonas

a ls o

in

his

discussion

w i th

Mr

H l o n g w a n e w a n t e d t o k n o w fr o m m e d i r e c tl y w h e n
t h e r u m o u r s w e r e s p r e a d in g o r c o m in g f r o m .

The

i m p o r t a n t p a r t is t h a t e v e n tu a lly a m e e ti n g w a s

Page 17 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
arranged for 23 rd October 2015 at the Hyatt Hotel,
R o s e b a n k a t a b o u t 1 3 :0 0 o r – t o 1 3 : 3 0 .”
A n d t h a t is w h a t y o u c o n v e y e d i n th a t a ff i d a v i t , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o y o u w o u l d a g r e e w i t h m e t h a t a t le a s t
fr o m h a v i n g r e a d t h a t p a r a g r a p h t h e r e is n o a m b i g u i ty p e r t a i n i n g t o t h e
agreement as far as it related to the venue. Am - am I correct?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

And when you agreed at least on your

v e r s i o n w i t h M r J o n a s t o m e e t a t th e H y a tt y o u d i d n o t r a i s e a n y
c o n c e r n s t h a t t h e H y a t t H o t e l is n o t p r i v a t e e n o u g h . A m I c o r r e c t - t o
d is c u s s th e r u m o u r ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s ; a n d I - I j u s t w a n t y o u k n o w I m e a n
fr o m y o u r o w n i n d e p e n d e n t r e c o l le c ti o n a n d k n o w in g th e H y a tt H o t e l
w o u ld I b e c o r r e c t t h a t i f th e r e w a s a n e e d t o s e c u r e a p r iv a te v e n u e a t
t h e H y a tt H o te l t h a t c o u ld h a v e b e e n e a s i l y a r r a n g e d . A m I c o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . S o i n o t h e r w o r d s t h e r e c o u l d n o t

20

h a v e b e e n a n y n e e d t o d o - to g o to th e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e w h il e t h e
H y a tt H o te l c o u ld h a v e o ff e r e d a n o t h e r p r i v a t e v e n u e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y. Yo u - i t w a s y o u a n d M r J o n a s a n d M r H l o n g w a n e w h o d e c id e d o n t h e c h a n g e o f th e v e n u e .
c h a n g e o f t h e v e n u e h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h Mr J o n a s . A m I c o r r e c t?

Page 18 of 176

Th e

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t w il l b e i n c o r r e c t . W e a l l a g r e e d t o m o v e
the venue.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Mr J o n a s h a s a g r e e d w i t h y o u - I

a m s i m p ly y o u k n o w tr y in g t o c l a r i fy a n d - a n d f o l lo w in g t h e s e q u e n c e
of events.

R e m e m b e r th a t y o u a n d M r J o n a s h a v e a g r e e d t o m e e t a t

t h e H y a tt H o te l .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o i s s u e s o f p r iv a c y w e r e r a is e d w it h

Mr Jonas?
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A t th a t p o i n t n o .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . I t is o n ly w h e n h e a r r iv e d w h e n h e
is b e i n g to ld t h a t a p r iv a t e v e n u e is b e i n g s o u g h t . A m I c o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h e n h e a r r iv e d a t th e H y a t t ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h e n y o u a r r iv e d a t th e H y a t t , y e s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s , y e s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is t h e o n ly p o i n t . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is th e o n ly p o i n t . Ye s th a t i s …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w I t a k e i t t h a t a t t h e ti m e

y o u r s e l f , Mr H l o n g w a n e a n d M r J o n a s w e r e m e m b e r s o f t h e A N C . Yo u
20

were comrades. Am I correct?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

And in fact was there any reason why

t h e t h r e e c o m r a d e s c o u l d n o t h a v e a c t u a ll y s u g g e s t e d t o m e e t a t

Page 19 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
L u t h u l i H o u s e t o d is c u s s th e r u m o u r ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

No.

T h e y w o u l d fi n d t h a t a b i t s tr a n g e

b e c a u s e L u th u li H o u s e i s a p o li t ic a l o ffi c e .

I t h a s g o t n o t h i n g to d o

w i t h my s e l f a t l e a s t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B u t I a m s a y in g t h a t a t l e a s t t h e th r e e o f
y o u w e r e c o mr a d e s …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h o b e l o n g e d t o t h a t o r g a n i s a t io n .

T h e r e is th is r u m o u r th a t a p p e a r e d t o b e tr o u b li n g e i t h e r y o u o r
M r H lo n g w a n e a n d I a m - I a m p o s i n g t h is q u e s t i o n in t h e l i g h t o f
M r H lo n g w a n e - w h a t M r H l o n g w a n e h a s s a id .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a y b e le t m e r e f e r y o u to th e s a m e f il e t h e s a m e n u m b e r f il e n u m b e r B .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I f y o u m a y t u r n to p a g e 5 - 1 - 7 a n d y o u

w i ll u n d e r s t a n d w h y I a m p o s i n g th a t q u e s t io n . W h y y o u h a v e c h o s e n
20

t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e a n d L u t h u li H o u s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e - w e r e m a in w i t h th e s a m e fi l e ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

P a g e - s a m e f il e C h a ir.

W e a r e in th e

s a m e fi l e . P a g e 5 - 1 - 7 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w i f y o u w e r e t o g o to l in e s n u m b e r 1 9

Page 20 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
a n d 2 0 - b y t h e w a y s i m p ly t o o r i e n t a t e y o u .

T h is is th e tr a n s c r i p t

M r Zu m a w h ic h r e c o r d e d th e i n te r v i e w b e t w e e n Mr H l o n g w a n e a n d th e
P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a n d t h e d a te o f t h a t w a s o n 11 O c to b e r 2 0 1 6 a n d
d u r i n g h is i n t e r v ie w i f y o u g o to l in e s 1 9 a n d 2 0 t h a t is w h a t - h e s a i d
t h e f o l lo w i n g to t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r.
“ T h e m e e ti n g w a s e s s e n t ia ll y a m e e ti n g b e tw e e n u s
a s c o mr a d e s - A N C c o mr a d e s - t o a d d r e s s th e is s u e
t h a t w a s d i s tu r b in g to m e .

Duduzane knows the

p e o p l e i n th a t s p a c e . I d o n o t .”
10

S o th a t is th e b a s is o f t h e q u e s t i o n a s t o i n s te a d o f h a v i n g
c h o s e n y o u k n o w th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e w o u l d t h is n o t h a v e m a d e s e n s e
in li n e w i t h w h a t M r H lo n g w a n e h a s s a i d t h a t t h i s th e m e e ti n g b e t w e e n
t h e c o m r a d e s y o u k n o w a n d to c h o o s e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t d o e s n o t m a k e a n y s e n s e t o m e s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Does not make any sense to you?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A lr ig h t .

A t th e - a n d a t t h e t i m e a ls o

w h e n t h is m e e t in g w a s a r r a n g e d w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t t h a t y o u w e r e e i th e r
a s h a r e h o ld e r, a m e m b e r o r a d ir e c t o r i n v a r io u s c o m p a n i e s ? I d o n o t
20

h a v e t o g o to t h e ir n a m e s f o r n o w.

I a m j u s t s a y in g t h a t a s a t

2 3 O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h e y a l s o h a v e o ffic e s a n d b o a r d r o o m s .
A m I c o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.

Page 21 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t d i d - i t d i d n o t m a k e s e n s e t o y o u a ls o
t o a r r a n g e t h e m e e ti n g t h e r e r a t h e r th a n t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A t t h a t t i m e i t w a s a p r o x i m i ty a n d a t i m e fr a m e
is s u e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o w e h a d t o - c h o s e t h e c lo s e s t p o s s i b l e a r e a
to meet.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A lr ig h t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o th a t i s w h y w e m e t a t t h e r e s i d e n c e .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w w h e n y o u ta lk t o p r o x i m i ty d u r i n g

t h a t t i m e a m I n o t c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t y o u i n f a c t o w n e d a p r o p e r ty i n
S a x o n w o ld a n d to b e m o r e s p e c i fic y o u o w n e d a p r o p e r ty a t n u m b e r 1 8
G r is w o l d S t r e e t in S a x o n w o ld a n d o n m y li t tl e r e s e a r c h i t is 6 0 0 m e tr e s
fr o m th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e a n d i t is a l m o s t s e v e n m i n u te s ’ w a lk fr o m th e
G u p t a r e s id e n c e .
W h y w a s th a t n o t t h e l o g i c a l p r iv a t e p l a c e t o m e e t a n d w h y
choosing the Gupta residence?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I t h i n k w h a t w e n e e d t o u n d e r s t a n d is I h a v e

c o n d u c t e d m a n y m e e t in g s fr o m t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e . O n a d a i ly b a s is
20

t h a t w a s a p r e f e r r e d m e e t i n g p la c e o u ts i d e o f a n o ffi c e e n v ir o n m e n t .
M y r e s i d e n c e p u r e ly w a s a p r iv a t e r e s id e n c e fo r m y - f o r my s t a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I h a v e n e v e r c o n d u c t e d a n y m e e ti n g s o u t o f m y
- m y p r iv a t e p la c e . S o w e d i d n o t g o t h e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I w a s a d d r e s s in g y o u k n o w y o u r l a s t

Page 22 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
s t a te m e n t w h e n y o u t a l k a b o u t p r o x i m i ty.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h e n I s a id L u t h u l i H o u s e c o u ld h a v e

b e e n a l o g i c a l p la c e t o g o . Yo u s a id t h a t w e ll b e c a u s e y o u w e r e a t th e
H y a tt H o te l i n R o s e b a n k i t m a d e s e n s e f o r y o u t o g o to t h e G u p ta
house …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d y e t y o u h a d a n o th e r h o u s e …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d a c c o r d in g to y o u w a s i t n o t p r iv a t e
enough - your house?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I d o n o t c o n d u c t m e e t i n g fr o m m y p r i v a t e

r e s id e n c e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Oh, but was - but was the reason not -

t h e lo g ic a l r e a s o n w h y t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e b e c a m e a p p e a l in g a n d t h e
lo g i c a l v e n u e y o u k n o w t o h o ld t h is m e e ti n g w a s i t - w a s i t n o t b e c a u s e
t h e r e c o u ld h a v e b e e n o n e o f t h e b r o th e r s o f t h e G u p t a t o b e p a r t a n d
p a r c e l o f t h e m e e t in g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o . T h a t is n o t t h e c a s e .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l l e t m e a s k t h is q u e s ti o n .

On your version and

t h e v e r s io n o f M r H lo n g w a n e w h a t t h e t h r e e o f y o u w e r e g o i n g t o
d is c u s s th a t is y o u r s e l f , M r H l o n g w a n e a n d M r J o n a s n e e d e d o n l y t h e
t h r e e o f y o u a n d n o b o d y e ls e . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .

Page 23 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d t h a t r e a l ly i f y o u r - o n e
o f t h e t h r e e o f y o u h a s a h o u s e c lo s e b y t h a t - t h a t i s w h e r e y o u w o u l d
- you would go because on your version what you want ed to discuss
h a d n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h th e G u p t a s .

S o - s o I - t h a t is w h a t I w o u l d

e x p e c t b e c a u s e i t i s j u s t th e th r e e o f y o u a n d m a y b e w h a t y o u w a n t e d
t o d is c u s s c o u ld v e r y w e l l b e d is c u s s e d a s a v e r y p e r s o n a l i s s u e .
A s I u n d e r s t a n d t h e p o s i t io n a n d y o u m u s t t e ll m e i f I a m - m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g i s w r o n g .

Yo u w e r e fr i e n d s w i th M r H l o n g w a n e a n d

M r H lo n g w a n e a n d M r J o n a s h a d b e e n f r ie n d s f o r a l o n g t i m e a s I
10

u n d e r s t a n d Mr J o n a s ’ e v id e n c e a s w e ll a s M r H l o n g w a n e ’s a ff id a v i t.
T h a t - t h a t is w h a t o n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d .
I t is - it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a s g o t n o t h i n g t o d o w i t h - w it h t h e
G u p t a s . O n e o f y o u h a s a h o u s e c l o s e b y. W h y d o y o u n o t j u s t t o g o t o t h a t h o u s e a n d s it t h e r e a n d d is c u s s th is p e r s o n a l m a t t e r a m o n g
o u r s e lv e s w i t h o u t a n y b o d y ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I - I s e e y o u n o w. I u n d e r s t a n d w h a t y o u a r e
s a y in g C h a i r b u t it w a s a p r iv a t e m e e ti n g b e t w e e n th e t h r e e o f u s .
T h e r e w a s n o o n e e ls e p r e s e n t .
CHAIRPERSON : But of course to the extent that you - you or the three

20

o f y o u w a n t e d a p r iv a t e m e e ti n g . T h e n i f y o u w e n t to s o m e b o d y e l s e ’s
h o u s e t h e r e c o u l d b e - th e r e w a s a l w a y s a r is k - t h e r e w o u l d a l w a y s
h a v e b e e n a r is k o f p e o p l e i n t r u d i n g a n d s o o n . W h e r e a s i f i t w a s y o u r
h o u s e y o u w o u l d b e in c h a r g e o f t h e h o u s e a n d if y o u s a i d y o u d o n o t
w a n t a n y b o d y t o i n t e r r u p t th e m e e ti n g t h e n n o b o d y w o u l d i n te r r u p t th e
m e e ti n g . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ?

Page 24 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I u n d e r s ta n d . I u n d e r s ta n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I m e a n j u s t p ig g y b a c k i n g o n w h a t t h e

C h a ir y o u k n o w w a s t r y i n g t o i n q u ir e f r o m y o u . W e k n o w a s a m a t t e r o f
f a c t a l s o t h a t d u r i n g th a t t i m e y o u w e r e a m e m b e r i f n o t a s h a r e h o ld e r
o f M a b e n g e la I n v e s t m e n t. A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : And I am sure that you have conducted a
n u m b e r o f m e e t i n g s i n t h a t M a b e n g e la ’s O ffi c e s ?
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Wa s i t a l s o n o t a n o t h e r o p ti o n t o h o l d

t h is m e e t i n g a m o n g t h e fr i e n d s a n d y o u k n o w d e a l w it h i t in a p r i v a t e
atmosphere of your own company?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o M r J o n a s w a s c o m i n g fr o m a N e d l a c

m e e ti n g . T h a t is w h e r e w e a g r e e d to m e e t i n R o s e b a n k .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Right.
CHAIRPERSON :
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u a n d M r J o n a s t h e r e is n o a m b ig u it y ?
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No, no. I am just …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u h a v e a g r e e d .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I a m j u s t tr y in g to p o in t o u t b e c a u s e t h e

d is t a n c e b e t w e e n a n d m y o ff ic e - R o s e b a n k a n d a p r iv a t e v e n u e w h ic h
was the residence …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

Page 25 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Is v a s tl y d i ff e r e n t . I t is m u c h c l o s e r a n d t h e n
t h e r e w a s a t h i r d p a r ty w h o w a s c o m i n g t o t h e m e e ti n g . I a m a s s u m i n g
fr o m h i s o w n h o m e i n H y d e P a r k .

S o w e w e r e a ll in t h a t p a r t o f - o f

J o h a n n e s b u r g a n d th e c lo s e s t p la c e w a s th e p la c e w e m e t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I s e e . N o w m a y I r e fe r y o u t o f il e - t h e
v e r y s a m e f il e i f y o u c a n g o t o p a g e 5 - 0 - 7 ? J u s t t o c lo s e u p y o u k n o w
t h e p o i n t t h a t I w a s m a k in g i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r r e s i d e n c e a n d le t u s s e e
w h a t M r H lo n g w a n e to l d th e P P o n p a g e 5 - 0 - 7 . I f y o u g o to li n e n u m b e r
n i n e t o l in e 1 3 h e s a i d t h e f o ll o w i n g :
10

“ To t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e I h a v e b e e n t o
D u d u z a n e ’s p la c e i n S a x o n w o l d .

I t is a w a lk in g -

m a y b e a m in u te t h a n i n d is ti n c t . S o in m y y o u k n o w
t o t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e h e d o e s n o t liv e t h e r e
…”
A n d t h e r e I t h i n k is th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e .
“ …b e c a u s e I t h in k h e h a s a h o u s e n e a r b y. H a v e I
b e e n t o h is h o u s e ? Ye s M a d a m . I h a v e b e e n to h i s
h o u s e .”
N o w y o u k n o w f o l lo w i n g fr o m w h a t Mr H l o n g w a n e h a s s a i d a
20

p e r s o n w h o h a s b e e n i n y o u r h o u s e . H e i s t h e fr i e n d t o M r J o n a s . Yo u
a r e s t il l s a y i n g th a t i t d id n o t m a k e s e n s e f o r y o u t o h a v e a m e e t i n g a t
y o u r h o u s e h a v i n g t h e - t h e r e a s o n t h a t y o u g a v e i n te r ms o f p r o x i m i ty ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O k a y.

proceeds on the very same page.

Yo u w il l s e e Mr H l o n g w a n e a ls o
I f y o u g o - i f y o u c a n g o t o li n e

Page 26 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
n u m b e r - li n e n u m b e r 2 5 a n d u p u n t il p a g e 5 - 0 - 8 li n e 1 5 . H e s a i d …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N u m b e r, n u m b e r 2 0 ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Page, page 5-0-7.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A lr ig h t . G o t o t h e la s t li n e o f t h e p a g e .
H e s a y s - th e fo ll o w i n g is b e i n g s a id b y A d v o c a t e M a d o n s e l a :
“ Be c a u s e y o u s a y w h e n y o u g o th e r e y o u g o v is i t
Duduzane.

T h a t is w h a t c o n f u s i n g m e w h e n I a m

a s k in g d o e s h e li v e t h e r e .”
10

A n d Mr H l o n g w a n e s a y s :
“ N o , n o . H e liv e s i n S a x o n w o l d y o u s a i d . H a v e y o u
been to

Saxonwold?

Ye s .

H e d o e s l iv e i n

S a x o n w o ld . S o i t is .”
Advocate Madonsela says:
“ O k a y. H a v e y o u b e e n t o th e G u p t a h o u s e ? ”
A n d Mr H l o n g w a n e s a y s :
“ Ye s M a d a m . I h a v e s e v e r a l ti m e s . S e v e r a l t i m e s ?
Ye s . A t - a s w h o s e g u e s t ? I w il l b e g o in g t h r o u g h
D u d u z a n e b e c a u s e h e is t h e o n e t h a t h a s p r i m a r y
20

r e l a ti o n s h i p b e c a u s e y o u w o u ld fi n d h i m t h e r e a t
t h e G u p t a h o u s e . O h . Ye s . I fi n d - I f i n d h i m t h e r e
s o m e t i m e s w e w o u l d g o t o g e t h e r in t h e s a m e c a r.
L e t u s p u t it t h i s w a y.

The one chap that I met

t h e r e is t h e o n e th a t i s fa m i li a r w it h m e .

So I do

n o t k n o w - I a m n o t f a m il ia r w it h a n y o t h e r p e o p l e .”

Page 27 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
Yo u k n o w c o n s i s te n t w i t h t h e t h e m e t h a t I w a s s a y - I w a s
tr y i n g t o i n te r r o g a te w i th t h e C h a ir a n d y o u k n o w t o s i m p ly p o i n t o u t t h e
o b v i o u s fa c t t h a t i t mi g h t h a v e b e e n a t t h e ti m e w h e n M r J o n a s s a id h e
w a s g o in g t o m e e t a t t h e H y a t t H o t e l w i t h y o u . A lr e a d y y o u h a d th o u g h t
t h a t a b e s t v e n u e s h o u l d b e t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e a n d f o r r e a s o n s th a t I
h a v e p u t t o y o u b e fo r e to s a y t h a t b e c a u s e it w a s c o n v e n i e n t t o o n e o f
the Gupta brothers.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o I ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B e c a u s e i t w a s c o n v e n i e n t f o r o n e o f th e
10

Gupta brothers.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
q u e s t io n .

N o w I w a n t to a s k .

I ju s t w a n t to a s k a

W h e n y o u s a y i t w a s c o n v e n i e n t y o u a r e s a y i n g th a t t h e

m e e ti n g - th e m e e t in g a t t h e h o u s e w a s a lr e a d y p r e - p r e - p l a n n e d b y
t h e ti m e w e g o t to t h e H y a t t?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h a t I a m s a y in g t o y o u is t h a t t h e

m e e ti n g w a s p l a n n e d a n d a g r e e d u p o n y o u …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

With Mr Jonas to meet at the Hyatt

Hotel?
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d fo r r e a s o n s w h ic h y o u t r i e d t o

e x p l a i n th e m e e ti n g w a s m o v e d to t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d I a m s a y in g t h a t i t w a s m o v e d t o t h e
G u p t a r e s i d e n c e n o t to y o u r h o u s e , n o t t o th e p r iv a te v e n u e i n H y a t t

Page 28 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
H o t e l , n o t t o a n y o f y o u r o ff ic e s w h e r e th e r e m i g h t h a v e b e e n p r i v a te
f a c i li t ie s .

S i m p l y t o a c c o m m o d a te t h a t t h e m u s t b e a G u p t a b r o th e r

p r e s e n t i n t h e m e e ti n g .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is n o t tr u e s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y. N o w I w a n t t o s h a r e w it h y o u b u t I
k n o w t h a t y o u m i g h t h a v e r e a d i t a ls o .

T h e v e r s io n o f M r J o n a s y o u

k n o w p e r ta in i n g to h o w h e a r r i v e d a t t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e . I f y o u c a n
c lo s e Fi l e B a n d g o t o F il e n u m b e r A .

G iv e y o u g o to Fi l e n u m b e r A

s t ic k in g w i t h t h e n u m b e r in g o n p a g e - o h , t h e r e d n u m b e r in g .
P a g e 6 C h a ir is t h e r e l e v a n t p a g e a n d M r Zu m a i f y o u c a n

10

read paragraph 15 into the record.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o r r y s ir.

C a n y o u j u s t r e p e a t w h a t, w h a t

( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 6 . W e a r e n o w o n F il e n u m b e r A .
LL1A.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . I a m th e r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d i f y o u g o to p a r a g r a p h 1 - 5 a n d

s i m p l y to - i t is e a s y t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t y o u w o u l d b e r e a d in g . I f y o u
g o t o p a g e 1 o f th a t d o c u m e n t - p a g e 3 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t y o u w i ll s e e is
20

t h e s t a t e m e n t o f Mr J o n a s w h ic h is s u b m i t t e d b e fo r e t h is C o m m i s s i o n a t
t h e ti m e w h e n h e a d d u c e d h is e v i d e n c e a n d i f y o u m a y tu r n to
p a r a g r a p h 1 5 n o w p a g e 6 a n d i f y o u c a n r e a d s i m p ly p a r a g r a p h 1 5 .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Read it.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s , y e s . I a m th e r e .

Page 29 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

“ W e d r o v e i n M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a ’s

c a r w h i c h a p p e a r e d t o b e a tw o d o o r M e r c e d e s
B e n z . I d i d n o t k n o w t h e s u r r o u n d in g a r e a v e r y w e l l
and

only

gathered

when

we

a r r iv e d

at

our

d e s ti n a t io n t h a t w e h a d d r iv e n t o t h e G u p ta s
r e s id e n c e i n S a x o n w o l d .

Mr Duduzane Zuma did

n o t s u g g e s t t o m e t h a t w e h a d l e f t - th a t w e le f t th e
H y a tt
10

and

r e s id e n c e

that
or

we

th a t

were
we

g o in g

meet

the

to

the

Gupta

Guptas.

As

M r D u d u z a n e Zu m a p a r k e d h i s c a r I n o t ic e d t h a t
M r Fa n a H lo n g w a n e h a d a ls o a r r iv e d a t t h e G u p ta
r e s id e n c e .”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . H e is a c c u r a te . D o - d o y o u a g r e e
w i t h h i m t h a t t h is is w h a t h a p p e n e d ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h ic h p o r t io n i s t h is ? T h e r e a r e p o r ti o n s t h a t
I m a y a g r e e . T h e r e a r e p o r ti o n s th a t I m a y n o t a g r e e w i th .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e ll id e n ti f y t o th e C h a ir w h ic h o n e s a r e
y o u i n a g r e e m e n t w i t h a n d w h ic h o n e s a r e y o u n o t i n a g r e e m e n t w i t h .
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m i n a g r e e m e n t t h a t h e ju m p e d i n to m y c a r.
I a m in a g r e e m e n t th a t w e a r r iv e d a t t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e b u t I a m i n
d is a g r e e m e n t t h a t h e d i d n o t k n o w w h e r e w e w e r e g o i n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . W e ll h e w a s h e r e a s w e ll . H e - h e
d i d te s ti fy n o t o n l y i n e v id e n c e i n c h i e f b u t h e - I m e a n h e w a s
c o n s i s te n t in a s f a r a s th a t v e r s i o n i s c o n c e r n e d e v e n u n d e r c r o s s a s t o

Page 30 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
the fact that when the venue was changed and when he - you decided
t o d r i v e w i t h - d r iv e h i m t o t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e h e w a s n o t to l d t h a t h e
w a s a c t u a l ly h e a d i n g t o th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o h e j u m p e d i n m y c a r a n d d e c id e d h e w a s h e w a s g o in g to g o w h e r e I t a k e h i m ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , b e c a u s e h e s a id th a t i f y o u l o o k a t
t h e p r e c e d i n g p a r a g r a p h s h e - h e s a i d th a t h e t h o u g h t th a t y o u w e r e
g o i n g to t a k e h i m t o g o a n d m e e t o t h e r p e o p le . H e d id n o t a s k a b o u t
t h e v e n u e . Yo u to o k h i m t o t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : H e k n e w e x a c t ly w h e r e w e w e r e g o i n g a n d h e h e k n e w e x a c t ly w h o w e - w e w e r e g o in g t o m e e t a n d w h y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m i g h t h a v e m is s e d s o m e th in g .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Did he know that you were going to the Gupta

r e s id e n c e w h e n h e j u m p e d in t o t h e c a r o r is th a t s o m e th in g h e g o t t o
k n o w a f te r h e h a d j u m p e d in t o th e c a r ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: So there was phone call that happened in the
20

in t e r l e a d i n g ti m e b e c a u s e w e w e r e th e t w o s it t in g a t t h e H y a t t .
CHAIRPERSON : On the same day?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : J a . O n t h e s a m e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o th is w a s a f t e r - th is i s d u r in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 31 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O u r fir s t in t e r a c ti o n a t th e H y a tt H o te l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o t h e r e w a s n o t a b ly a t h ir d g e n tl e m a n t h a t

w a s n o t t h e r e . H e w a s o n h is w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A p h o n e c a l l c a m e i n . Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A p h o n e c a l l c a m e i n a n d t h a t is w h e n

the change of venue happened.
10

T h a t d is c u s s i o n w a s h a d b e tw e e n

m y s e l f a n d I c a l l h i m “ U n c l e F a n a ” M r H lo n g w a n e a n d I p a s s e d t h e
phone over to Mr Jonas.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s a n d w e h a d a d is c u s s i o n a n d th e r e w a s a
mutual agreement to where we were going to meet …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d t h e n t h e r e w a s d e c i d e d t h a t w e w i ll j u m p
in t o my c a r a n d t h e n th e r e s t i s d o c u m e n te d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m , o k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you.

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I w il l s h o r tl y ta k e y o u to M r H lo n g w a n e ’s
e v i d e n c e b u t i f - le t u s - l e t u s - w h i le y o u a r e s t il l o n t h a t s a m e p a g e
s i m p l y to c o n t e x t u a li s e y o u k n o w t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r J o n a s a n d I a m
g iv i n g y o u t h i s o p p o r t u n i ty t o r e a c t to i t y o u k n o w. I t i s p a r a g r a p h 1 4 .
H e s a y s th a t :
“When

Mr Duduzane Zuma

a r r iv e d

Page 32 of 176

at

the

Hyatt

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
H o t e l w e h a d a b r ie f d is c u s s io n . H e a p p e a r e d q u i t e
n e r v o u s a n d s p o k e in v e r y v a g u e t e r m s .

H e s a id

n o t h i n g o f s u b s t a n c e e x c e p t t o s a y t h a t h is f a th e r
t h e n P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Zu m a l ik e d m e . A f t e r a w h il e
I i n d ic a t e d t h a t I w a s u n d e r ti m e p r e s s u r e . H e s a id
t h a t t h e p la c e w a s c r o w d e d a n d t h a t h e h a d
i m p o r t a n t m a t t e r s to d is c u s s b u t t h a t h e w a n t e d
o th e r p e o p l e to jo in t h e d i s c u s s i o n a n d t h a t h e
w a n t e d to d r iv e t o a m o r e p r i v a t e p l a c e w h ic h h e
10

s a i d w a s c lo s e b y.

I assumed that we - we would

b e g o i n g t o a n o ff ic e n e a r b y. S o I s a id le t u s g o . I
h a v e r e c e i v e d a c a ll f r o m F a n a H lo n g w a n e a s
Mr Duduzane - as Mr Duduzane Zuma and I told him
t h a t I w a s w i t h Mr Z u m a .”
T h a t i s w h a t a c tu a lly h e t o l d t h e C h a ir w h e n h e t e s ti f ie d a n d
y o u s a i d a c c o r d i n g t o y o u t h a t i s n o t a c c u r a te ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is e x a c tl y w h a t I a m s a y i n g s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w t h e n e x t t o p i c th a t I n e e d t o

a d d r e s s w i t h y o u Mr Z u m a is y o u k n o w w h y - w h y y o u , y o u k n o w. W h y
20

w e r e y o u th e o n e c h o s e n t o f a c i li t a te th is m e e ti n g t o d i s c u s s y o u k n o w
t h e r u m o u r a n d th a t is t h e t h e m e t h a t I w a n t t o i n t e r r o g a t e w i t h y o u .
M a y b e l e t u s s t a r t th a t b y g o i n g t o Fi le B - Fi le n u m b e r B .
y o u g o to p a g e 6 - 1 - 3 .
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say we must go to B?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : L - y e s . L L 1 B C h a ir.

Page 33 of 176

LL1B.

If

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON : Okay and what is the page number?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Page 6-1-3.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w y o u w i ll s e e th a t is th e a ff i d a v i t o f
M r H lo n g w a n e t h e p e r s o n w h o m y o u r e fe r to a s th e u n c l e w h ic h w a s
s u b m i tt e d i n s u p p o r t o f h is R u le 3 . 4 a p p li c a t io n t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e
M r J o n a s a n d to p a r t ic i p a te i n t h i s C o m m is s i o n ’s p r o c e e d i n g s .

Th e

r e l e v a n t p a g e th a t I w a n t t o ta k e y o u t h r o u g h is p a g e 6 - 1 - 8 .

6-1-8

C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I h a v e g o t it .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

P a r a g r a p h n in e - p a r a g r a p h s n i n e a n d

1 0 . T h i s is w h a t M r H lo n g w a n e s a i d i n h is a ffi d a v i t . H e s a i d :
“ I c o n fi r m t h a t I k n o w M r J o n a s f o r m a n y y e a r s a n d
t h a t w e b e c a m e g o o d fr ie n d s .”
10:
“ W h e n i n f a c t tr ie d to n e g o ti a t e a n u m b e r o f
tr a n s a c ti o n s i n t h e p a s t .”
CHAIRPERSON : We
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

“ T h e d e ta i l o f s u c h b u s in e s s

r e l a ti o n s h i p i s … ”

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k i t is s a y s “ w e ” M r M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : “ W e …”
S o r r y.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

Page 34 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
“ We in f a c t - w e i n f a c t …”
T h a n k s C h a ir.
“ We

in

fa c t

tr i e d

to

n e g o t ia t e

tr a n s a c ti o n s in t h e p a s t .

a

number

of

Th e d e t a i l o f s u c h

b u s i n e s s r e la t io n s h ip i t is n o t r e l e v a n t t o t h e is s u e s
at hand

and

s t a te m e n t

w i th

I

w il l

th e r e fo r e

fu r t h e r

d e t a ils

not

burden

r e l a ti n g

to

t h is
this

a s p e c t. T h e o b je c t iv e fa c ts a r e t h a t w e k n e w e a c h
o th e r w e ll in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 .”
10

N o w t h a t is w h a t M r J o n a s ( s ic ) a t l e a s t in f o r m e d th e C h a ir
t h r o u g h th e 3 . 4 a ffi d a v i t . W h a t is q u i t e c l e a r fr o m p a r a g r a p h s n i n e a n d
1 0 is th a t h i m a n d M r J o n a s w e r e fr i e n d s t h e y k n e w e a c h o t h e r fr o m
lo n g t i m e a g o . A m I c o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w w h a t s i m p ly e s c a p e s o n e ’s

m i n d a n d I a m - I a m s u r e y o u a r e h e r e to e x p l a i n i s t h a t w h y w o u l d t h e
t w o fr i e n d s t h a t k n e w e a c h o t h e r fr o m th is l o n g t i m e d e c i d e t h a t y o u
m u s t b e t h e o n e w h o a r r a n g e s a m e e ti n g s i m p ly to d i s c u s s a r u m o u r.
CHAIRPERSON :
20

W e l l Mr M o k o e n a s o y o u - y o u s a y w h y t h e t w o

d e c i d e . Is t h a t w h a t y o u i n t e n d s a y i n g ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: No, no. Why he …
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Wa s c h o s e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

Page 35 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Fi r s tl y I w a s n o t c h o s e n .

I - I decided - I

d e c i d e d t o p u t th e m e e ti n g t o g e t h e r a n d t h e r e a s o n f o r th a t i s o n th e
o n e s i d e y e s a n d t h e y v e r y g o o d fr i e n d s . T h e y h a v e k n o w n e a c h o th e r
- t h a t is c o m m o n c a u s e - f o r a l o n g t i m e . Yo u h a v e a s i t u a ti o n w h e r e
t h e r e i s a n u m b e r o f th i n g s b e i n g s a i d i n t h e b a c k g r o u n d .
T h e o n e p e r s o n is n o t a w a r e o f i t a n d t h e o th e r o n e is a l l e g e d
t o b e t a l k i n g a b o u t i t . S o I w o u ld r a is e t h e s e m a t te r s o v e r a p e r i o d o f
ti m e w i th U n c le F a n a t o s a y l o o k y o u h a d a g o o d r e la t io n s h ip w i th
10

Mr Jonas.

Why am I hearing that there is - these murmurs and these

r u m o u r s b e h i n d th e s c e n e s ?

W h y a m I h e a r in g t h a t a n d y o u a r e n o t

coming across it?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o b y t h e t h ir d ti m e o f a s k i n g I s a i d t o h i m c a n
w e r e s o lv e t h i s a n d h e l e f t t h e m a tt e r in m y h a n d s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o I w a s t h e o n e l e f t r e s p o n s i b l e t o p u t th e

m e e ti n g t o g e t h e r w h ic h I d i d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d - a n d t h a t is e x a c t ly y o u k n o w w h a t I
20

a m tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Me and you have agreed that you were

n o t fr ie n d s w i t h M r J o n a s . C o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u d i d n o t i n t e r a c t w i t h h i m o n a n y

Page 36 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
s o c ia l l e v e l ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o t a t a ll s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c t u a ll y I t h in k a c c o r d i n g t o M r J o n a s th e t w o o f y o u
h a d n e v e r m e t o r i n tr o - b e in g i n tr o d u c e d t o e a c h o t h e r u n t il
O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 . Is th a t r i g h t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u a ls o d o n o t e v e n h a v e h is c e ll p h o n e
10

number?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Ye t y o u b e c o m e t h e p e r s o n t h a t

m u s t f a c i li t a t e t h i s m e e t in g .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : E x a c tly a s i t h a p p e n e d , y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
d i ff ic u l t ?

Ye s .

Why - do you know why was it

I m e a n a t th e t i m e t h e y w e r e s t ill f r i e n d s M r J o n a s a n d

M r H lo n g w a n e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

W h y c o u l d o n e fr i e n d n o t c a l l t h e o t h e r

and say …
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Because the one …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d s a y t h a t t h e r e is th is r u m o u r w h ic h
y o u k n o w it is d i s t u r b i n g .

C a n w e m e e t y o u k n o w t o d e a l w i t h th is

rumour?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .

Page 37 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W h y y o u b e c o m e t h e t h i r d p e r s o n to b e

t h e o n e t o f a c il it a t e a m e e ti n g s i m p ly t o d i s c u s s th e r u m o u r ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A s I’ d s a i d s ir th e r e is o n e p e r s o n t h a t ’s

a w a r e o f i t a n d o n e p e r s o n t h a t ’s n o t a w a r e o f i t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s b u t t h e r e ’s n o t h i n g t h a t is s t o p p in g

o n e fr i e n d … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

O f c o u r s e n o t.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
10

To c a ll t h e o th e r fr i e n d .

O f c o u r s e n o t s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

To s a y th a t t h e r e is th is r u m o u r c o m e

le t ’s d i s c u s s t h i s r u m o u r th e y d o n ’ t e v e n n e e d t h e t h ir d p e r s o n , a m I
correct?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , n o w fr o m y o u r o w n v e r s i o n y o u

s a y, if I u n d e r s ta n d i t v e r y w e ll a n d I’ m s i m p ly p a r a p h r a s i n g , i s th a t t h e
m e e ti n g o f t h e 2 3 r d o f O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 w a s s i m p l y f o r t h e t h r e e o f y o u t o
m e e t a n d t o d is c u s s a r u m o u r, n o t h i n g e l s e th e r e w e r e n o o ff e r s t h a t
w e r e m a d e a n d t h a t’s y o u r v e r s i o n ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s t h a t ’s m y v e r s io n s ir.

B e f o r e y o u m o v e a w a y f r o m t h e p r e v i o u s q u e s ti o n Mr

M o k o e n a I d o w a n t t o g e t th e f u l l p e r s p e c t iv e fr o m y o u r s id e o f y o u r
in v o lv e m e n t b e c a u s e I t h in k i t ’s i m p o r t a n t , i t’s a n i s s u e t h a t k e e p s o n
c o m i n g b a c k to m y m i n d a s w e ll , n a m e ly if a s w e n o w k n o w, y o u h a d
r e a l ly n e v e r m e t M r J o n a s o b v io u s ly y o u mi g h t h a v e m e t i n m e e t in g s
b u t y o u h a v e n e v e r b e e n i n tr o d u c e d t o e a c h o t h e r, y o u d i d n ’ t k n o w

Page 38 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
e a c h o t h e r in t h a t s e n s e , a n d y o u w e r e j u s t fr ie n d s w i t h M r H l o n g w a n e
a n d M r H lo n g w a n e h a d b e e n fr i e n d s w i t h M r J o n a s f o r m a n y y e a r s , i t i s
s tr a n g e th a t Mr H l o n g w a n e s h o u ld n ’t e i t h e r s p e a k t o M r J o n a s h i m s e l f
a b o u t t h e s e r u m o u r s o r g e t s o m e b o d y, t h a t , i f h e c a n ’ t fr o w h a t e v e r
r e a s o n o r if h e fe e ls th a t m a y b e i t w o n ’t b e – h e n e e d s a t h ir d p e r s o n
w h y h e d id n ’t t h i n k o f g e t t in g s o m e b o d y w h o k n e w b o t h h i m s e l f a n d M r
J o n a s t o s a y, y o u k n o w b o t h o f u s , m a y b e y o u a r e fr i e n d s w i th b o t h o f
u s th e r e ’s a n is s u e b e t w e e n u s , w o n ’ t y o u h e l p u s r e s o lv e t h is ? S o t h a t
is t h a t q u e s t io n i n m y m in d a n d I w o u l d lik e t o g e t y o u r f u l l p e r s p e c ti v e
10

b e c a u s e i t s e e m s s t r a n g e w h y s o m e b o d y w h o is a s tr a n g e r t o o n e o f
t h e p a r ti e s s h o u ld b e a s k e d t o b e t h e o n e t o m a k e a r r a n g e m e n ts f o r t h e
t w o fr ie n d s to m e e t a n d d is c u s s a n i s s u e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

T h a n k y o u C h a ir fr o m m y s i d e , w i t h a l l r e s p e c t

t o y o u C h a ir, I d o n ’ t s e e i t a s s tr a n g e t h a t a n u n k n o w n e n t it y t r i e s to
r e s o l v e a n is s u e . I h a v e b e e n i n m e e t i n g s w h e r e p e o p l e h a v e p u t m e
t o g e th e r w i t h o t h e r p e o p le in t h e r o o m w h e r e I d id n o t k n o w t h e t h i r d
p a r t y a n d s i m il a r ly I ’v e d o n e th is , n o t j u s t w i t h th is m a t t e r w it h M r
Jonas but on numerous other occasions. Sometimes everyone is known
t o e a c h o t h e r in t h e r o o m , s o m e t i m e s t h e r e ’s s tr a n g e r s i n t h e r o o m b u t
20

t h e c o m m o n is s u e is r e s o lv in g t h e i s s u e .

Now when it comes to why

m e , I ’ m t h e o n e w h o r a is e d t h e is s u e w i t h u n c l e F a n a , a s I c a ll h i m .
N o w t h e d i ffi c u l ty is i f , in m y v i e w, i f h e a p p r o a c h e s M r J o n a s a t s o m e
p o i n t h e ’s g o in g t o a s k w h e r e ’s th is c o m i n g fr o m s o n o w a s – I m e a n
I’ m o b v i o u s ly t h e y o u n g e r g u y i n t h e r e l a ti o n s h i p s o a s t h e y o u n g e r g u y
I s a i d to h i m , l o o k t h is n e e d s t o h a p p e n a n d h e s a i d i f y o u ’r e p u t ti n g

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
y o u r n e c k o n th e li n e y o u n e e d to b e p a r t o f th a t m e e ti n g b e c a u s e w h e n
h e a s k e d m e , w h o ’s lis t e n i n g t o p e o p le s a y in g s tu ff h e i s g o in g t o a s k
w h o a n d t h a t p e r s o n is m e . S o a s p a r t o f t h e m e e t in g s e t - u p a s p a r t o f
p u t t in g t h e is s u e o n t h e t a b l e t h e y n e e d e d t h e h o r s e ’s m o u t h a n d I w a s
t h e h o r s e ’s m o u t h . S o I d o n ’t s e e i t s tr a n g e b e i n g i n a m e e ti n g w i t h a n
u n k n o w n p e r s o n r e g a r d le s s o f h o w l o n g t h e ir r e l a ti o n s h i p h a s b e e n .
T h e r e is a n a w k w a r d is s u e , I ’ m t h e o n e t h a t r a is e d t h e is s u e , I ’ m t h e
o n e th a t p u t t h e is s u e a c r o s s th a t th e m e e ti n g e it h e r r e s o lv e i t o r d id n ’ t
r e s o l v e i t a n d t h a t w a s i t , i t ’s t h a t s i m p l e .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

I n u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o m p le t e ly, t h e n e e d fo r y o u to b e

p r e s e n t a t t h e m e e ti n g t o t h e e x te n t t h a t y o u m i g h t b e th e o n e w h o
k n e w a b o u t th e s e a ll e g a t i o n s o r t h e s e r u m o u r s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Th a t I d o n ’ t h a v e a p r o b l e m w i th t h a t , th e d i ffic u lt y

t h a t I h a v e is , y o u b e i n g t a s k e d w i t h t h e r e s p o n s i b i li ty o f o r g a n i s i n g th e
m e e ti n g b e c a u s e t h a t s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t y o u r e v id e n c e i t , t h a t
is my u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t Mr H l o n g w a n e s a y s i n h is a ffi d a v i t .

I

w o u ld u n d e r s ta n d if , w h a t M r H l o n g w a n e d i d w a s e i t h e r t o s p e a k t o M r
J o n a s a n d s a y, l e t ’s h a v e a m e e ti n g o r g e t s o m e b o d y e l s e t o a r r a n g e
20

t h a t w h o is k n o w n t o M r J o n a s b u t s a y y o u m u s t b e p r e s e n t b e c a u s e
y o u k n o w a b o u t t h e s e r u m o u r s , th a t w o u l d h a v e – I w o u l d h a v e
understood.

B u t w i th r e g a r d t o w h y i t m a y b e – a t l e a s t f o r m e , it ’s

n a t u r a l t o e x p e c t th a t i n t h i s s it u a ti o n , M r H l o n g w a n e – o n e w o u ld
e x p e c t M r H l o n g w a n e t o e i t h e r s p e a k to M r J o n a s h i m s e l f t o a r r a n g e
t h e m e e t in g o r t o g e t s o m e b o d y w h o is k n o w n t o b o t h o f t h e m i s t h a t , in

Page 40 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
a w a y t h e t w o p a r ti e s w h o h a v e is s u e s n e e d t o h a v e c o n fi d e n c e i n t h e
t h ir d p a r ty t h a t is b e in g b r o u g h t in , y o u u n d e r s ta n d th a t?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

Understood.

N o w i f y o u d o n ’ t k n o w s o m e b o d y i t m i g h t b e d i ff ic u l t

t o h a v e c o n fi d e n c e i n t h a t p e r s o n fo r p u r p o s e s o f h e l p in g t o fi n d a
s o l u ti o n t o a p r o b l e m .

W h e r e a s if i t i s s o m e b o d y t h a t y o u k n o w, a n d

m a y b e b o t h p a r ti e s , n a m e ly M r H lo n g w a n e a n d

Mr J o n a s h a v e

c o n fi d e n c e in t h a t p e r s o n th e y tr u s t t h a t p e r s o n w o n ’ t b e b i a s e d , w il l
ju s t t r y t o h e lp t h e m . M a y b e th e y k n o w t h a t, t h a t p e r s o n h a s g o t s k il ls
10

o f t r y i n g to h e l p p e o p l e r e s o l v e is s u e s , t h e n i t m a k e s a lo t o f s e n s e t o
m e , y o u u n d e r s t a n d , t h a t ’s w h e r e I ’ m c o m i n g fr o m w i th m y q u e s t i o n b u t
y o u h a v e p u t y o u r p e r s p e c t iv e b u t i f y o u h a v e g o t s o m e t h i n g m o r e t h a t
y o u w o u l d l ik e t o s a y a b o u t i t , p le a s e fe e l f r e e t o d o s o .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u u n d e r s ta n d ?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

I u n d e r s ta n d .

I u n d e r s ta n d .

O k a y, t h a n k y o u .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

M a y b e t o h e l p m e u n d e r s ta n d , a s y o u

h a v e a t t e m p te d t o m a k e th e C h a ir u n d e r s t a n d , if I m a y r e fe r y o u t o
20

page 737 of the same bundle …[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON :

And maybe, I’m sorry Mr Mokoena, maybe just to

c o m p le t e t h e p i c tu r e o f w h a t I w a s s a y i n g M r Z u m a , i n t h a t k in d o f
s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e t w o fr i e n d s – w h e r e t w o fr i e n d s h a v e a n is s u e t h e y
w a n t to r e s o lv e b e t w e e n th e m s e lv e s , a c t u a l ly, i f th e o n e fr ie n d k n o w s
t h a t t h e p e r s o n b e in g p r o p o s e d to p l a y t h e r o le o f h e lp i n g th e m r e s o l v e

Page 41 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
t h is is s u e i s a fr i e n d t o t h e o t h e r o n e b u t a s tr a n g e r t o h i m , h e m i g h t b e
m o r e r e l u c t a n t to a g r e e t o th is p e r s o n b u t i f t h e p e r s o n w h o is b e i n g
a s k e d to h e l p th e m r e s o lv e t h e is s u e i s s o m e b o d y t h a t i s e i th e r fr ie n d s
w i t h b o t h o f t h e m o r n o t fr i e n d s w i t h a n y o n e o f t h e m b u t k n o w s th e m ,
t h e n th e r e m ig h t b e m o r e c h a n c e s o f a c c e p ta n c e , y o u u n d e r s t a n d ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

I u n d e r s ta n d C h a i r, i f I m a y j u s t … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

Ye s , y e s .

M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

I w a s t a s k e d w it h t h i s , i t w a s a s i m p l e – i f

y o u ’r e r a i s i n g t h i s m y la a i t ji e y o u r u n w i th it .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t’s e x a c t ly w h a t I d i d , y o u r e s o lv e th e

is s u e s if y o u a r e g o in g t o r a is e t h e s e s o r t s o f m a tt e r s t h e n y o u n e e d t o
p u t y o u r s k i n i n t h e g a m e a n d t h a t ’s e x a c t ly w h a t I d i d b e c a u s e I
n e e d e d to s t a n d b y w h a t e v e r i t w a s t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n w a s b e i n g p a s s e d
around and I needed to communicate.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

N o w I s tr o n g l y d i s a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir t h a t – I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r p o i n t t h a t t h e r e ’s a c e r t a i n w a y c e r t a i n m e e t in g s a r e
conducted.
20

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

T h i s w a s in f o r m a l , t h e s e s o r ts o f m e e t i n g s

h a p p e n s a ll t h e t i m e , li k e I s a id I ’v e b e e n p a r t o f m e e ti n g s w h e r e I
h a v e n ’t k n o w n c e r t a in p e o p l e in th e r o o m b u t I w a s a s k e d t o a t te n d
c e r t a i n m e e ti n g s , w e ’v e e i t h e r r e s o lv e d t h e is s u e s o r w e h a v e n ’ t
r e s o l v e d t h e is s u e s a n d w e ’v e m o v e d o n a n d t h is c a s e i s e x a c tl y t h a t

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
c a s e i t ’s n o t t h e fir s t ti m e i t ’s h a p p e n e d a n d w il l c o n ti n u e to h a p p e n ,
ju s t p u r e ly t o p u t m a tt e r s o n t h e ta b l e t o tr y a n d r e s o l v e t h e m C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , y o u m u s t j u s t u n d e r s t a n d w h e n I p u t q u e s ti o n s

t o y o u li k e t h is , th a t i t d o e s n ’ t m e a n th a t’s a p e r m a n e n t v ie w i n my
mind.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

N o n o t a t a ll .

I t ’s s i m p ly t o b e tr a n s p a r e n t w i t h y o u to s a y t h is is

w h a t ’s g o i n g o n i n m y m in d , t e l l m e w h a t y o u m i g h t b e a b l e to t e ll m e
a n d my v i e w m i g h t c h a n g e a t t h e e n d b u t i t ’s ju s t t o b e tr a n s p a r e n t w i th
10

y o u t o s a y, th is i s w h a t is c o n c e r n i n g m e , w h a t c a n y o u te ll m e a b o u t i t .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

I a p p r e c i a te i t C h a i r.

O k a y a lr ig h t .

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Yo u r v i e w lo o k s lik e i t ’s c h a n g e d s o

[i n d is t in c t] .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

C h a ir j u s t a fe w q u e s t io n s I ju s t w a n t t o

w r a p u p o n t h is is s u e I s e e t h a t w e a r e g e t ti n g t o q u a r t e r p a s t . I h a v e
r e fe r r e d y o u t o p a g e 7 3 7 s i m p ly to c l o s e o n t h is is s u e t h a t w e ’r e
d e b a ti n g w it h t h e C h a ir a n d p i g g y b a c k i n g o n it . I f y o u r e a d p a r a g r a p h
e i g h t , j u s t o n e li n e , a n d t h a t ’s r e a lly w h a t tr o u b le s m e a b o u t h o w t h is
20

t h i n g w a s a r r a n g e d , y o u a r e s a y i n g t h e r e , i t ’s y o u r a ff id a v i t,
“ I m e t M r J o n a s f o r th e f ir s t t i m e a t t h e H y a t t H o te l a s
a r r a n g e d b y te l e p h o n e d i s c u s s io n s , S M S e x c h a n g e s b e tw e e n
us”,
A n d I t h i n k , t h a t ’s , y o u k n o w s u p p o r t w h a t t h e C h a ir o r a t l e a s t
y o u k n o w a ls o b r in g s i n t o li g h t t h e q u e s t i o n s a s t o w h y y o u – y o u a r e

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
m e e ti n g w it h th e m f o r th e fir s t t i m e , y o u d o n ’ t k n o w e a c h o t h e r, y o u a r e
c o m i n g t o d is c u s s th is r u m o u r a n d th a t ’s w h y w e a r e p o s i n g th o s e
q u e s t io n s t o y o u s o t h a t w e c a n a t l e a s t m a k e s e n s e o f w h a t y o u a r e
s a y in g t h a t , w h y y o u , w h y w e r e y o u t h e c h o s e n o n e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s a s I s a i d e a r l i e r o n I h a v e n ’ t d is a g r e e d

w i t h a n y o f t h e q u e s t i o n s t h a t y o u ’v e p u t f o r w a r d , I h a v e n ’ t d i s a g r e e d
w i t h m e h a v in g t o h a v e a g r e e d w it h y o u t h a t I m e t t h e m f o r th e fir s t
ti m e w h e t h e r i t w a s v i a S M S , w h e th e r i t w a s v i a a p h o n e c a ll th a t w a s
t h e f ir s t ti m e I m e t t h e m a n d I s e e a b s o l u t e ly n o th in g w r o n g w it h t h a t .
10

H o w d o y o u m e e t p e o p l e , y o u m a k e c o n t a c t a n d it ’s e i th e r t h e y w a n t t o
m e e t y o u o r th e y d o n ’ t w a n t t o m e e t y o u f o r w h a t e v e r r e a s o n a n d w e
met?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

J a a n d t h is r u m o u r, s i n c e i t w a s

tr o u b li n g Mr J o n a s s o m u c h a n d I t h in k y o u a l s o w e r e tr o u b l e d w i th i t t o
t h e e x t e n t th a t y o u k n o w, t h e r e w a s t h is m e e ti n g th a t y o u h a d t o
f a c i li t a te , d id y o u a p p r o a c h a n y o f th e o t h e r s e n i o r A N C m e m b e r s , y o u
k n o w, to t e l l t h e m a b o u t t h is r u m o u r a m o n g s t th e s e c o mr a d e s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

N o i t w a s n o o n e e ls e ’s b u s i n e s s it w a s

b e t w e e n th e t w o o f t h e m a n d I w a s tr y i n g t o r e s o lv e i t .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s .

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

M r C h a i r i s t h is t h e a p p r o p r i a t e t i m e t o

take the tea adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s w e w il l t a k e th e te a a d j o u r n m e n t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I m i g h t h a v e s te p p e d i n t o s o m e o f t h e

Page 44 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
minutes of the tea adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l i t i s a f t e r q u a r t e r p a s t w e ’l l ta k e t h e t e a

a d j o u r n m e n t a n d r e s u m e a t t w e n ty fi v e t o t w e lv e , w e a d jo u r n .
REGISTRAR:

A l l r is e .

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s l e t u s p r o c e e d Mr M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

E x c e p t M r C h a i r th a t

w e m i g h t h a v e c o m p e t i ti o n w it h th e a ir c o n d it i o n e r a n d I k n o w th a t a t
10

s o m e p o i n t y o u s e e t h a t m y v o i c e is fa d in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I w i ll tr y to r a i s e m y v o ic e b u t I w i ll a ls o
M r Zu m a t o t r y h is le v e l b e s t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s h e h a s a s o f t v o i c e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Let us see there have been times when we have had
t o s w i tc h i t o ff b e c a u s e o n e c a n n o t h e a r p r o p e r ly.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t i n t e r fe r e s y e s . W e w il l t r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y le t u s s e e h o w w e g o .

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r Z u m a I w a n t t o e x p l o r e th e la s t to p i c
y o u k n o w o n t h e is s u e s p e r t a in in g to M r J o n a s a n d w h a t t r a n s p i r e d o n
t h e 2 3 r d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d c l e a r l y t h a t t o p ic is t h a t y o u k n o w s i m p l y t o
e x p l o r e w h o w a s p r e s e n t a t th e m e e ti n g a n d w h a t r e a ll y h a p p e n e d a t
t h e m e e t i n g y o u k n o w a n d t h a t w il l b e m y la s t to p i c o u t o f th a t . H a v i n g
in m in d t h e f a c t t h a t y o u r v e r s i o n i s q u i t e c l e a r t h a t t h e m e e ti n g w a s

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
s i m p l y t o d is c u s s a r u m o u r a n d i t w a s b e tw e e n a m o n g s t t h e t h r e e o f
y o u a t G u p t a r e s id e n c e , a m I c o r r e c t ? T h a t is ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s j a .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d i f I m a y r e fe r y o u to fi l e A – A C h a ir.
A n d i f y o u m a y tu r n to p a g e 4 .

T h a t is M r J o n a s ’ w i t n e s s s ta t e m e n t

w h ic h h e s u b m i t t e d b e f o r e t h is c o m m is s i o n . A n d I w i ll tr y to s u m m a r i s e
w h a t i s c o n t a i n e d in t h e r e in o r d e r to s a v e ti m e .
10

I f y o u lo o k a t

p a r a g r a p h s – y o u k n o w fr o m p a g e 4 p a r a g r a p h 3 to p a g e 6 p a r a g r a p h
1 4 Mr J o n a s g iv e s d e t a i ls s p e c i fic a ti o n s a n d ti m e s w h e n d i ff e r e n t c a l ls ,
e x c h a n g e o f s m s ’, e v e n t h e m is s e d c a ll s w h ic h y o u k n o w o c c u r r e d
b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f h i m a n d y o u k n o w M r H l o n g w a n e a t s o m e p o in t . T h e
q u e s t io n th a t I s i m p ly – a n d i f y o u lo o k a t t h a t d e t a il e d n a r r a ti o n o f
w h a t tr a n s p – w h a t a c c o r d in g t o h i m t r a n s p ir e d a n d t h e e x c h a n g e o f th e
t e l e p h o n e o r o f th e c e l l p h o n e c a l ls a n d t h e s m s ’ y o u w i ll n o t fi n d a t
le a s t fr o m h is v e r s io n w h e r e h e s a y s t h a t p r i o r t o t h e 2 3 r d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5
w h e n y o u c a ll e d h i m y o u d is c lo s e d t o h i m t h a t t h e r e a s o n f o r t h e
m e e ti n g w a s t o d is c u s s t h e r u m o u r. W o u l d I b e – w o u l d t h a t b e a f a i r

20

r e a d in g o f y o u r s t a te m e n t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S ir c a n y o u p l e a s e r e p e a t t h a t q u e s t i o n ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

T h e q u e s t io n i s i f y o u r e a d Mr J o n a s ’

s t a te m e n t t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s th a t I h a v e r e fe r r e d t o y o u w i ll n o t f in d
a n y w h e r e w h e r e h e s a y s w h e n h e c a l le d y o u ; y o u d i s c l o s e d to h i m t h a t
y o u k n o w th e p u r p o s e fo r t h is m e e t i n g w a s s u p p o s e d to b e t o d i s c u s s

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
t h e r u m o u r, w o u l d t h a t b e a f a ir r e a d i n g o f M r J o n a s ’?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Ye s I u n d e r s ta n d t h e q u e s t io n th a t w il l b e a

f a ir r e a d in g s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

N o w I w a n t t o k n o w fr o m y o u I

m e a n h a v i n g r e g a r d fr o m t h e ti m e w h e n y o u s t a r te d i n v it i n g h i m to th e
a w a r d s u p u n ti l t h e 2 3 r d O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 d i d y o u d is c lo s e t o h i m t h a t y o u
w a n t e d t o d i s c u s s w i th h i m a r u m o u r a n d i f s o y o u k n o w I m i g h t h a v e
m is s e d i t a ls o i n y o u r a ffi d a v i t .

I f y o u c a n p o i n t m e t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t

w h e r e y o u h a v e s a i d th a t?
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o t h a t w a s d is c u s s e d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u t o l d h i m ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s t h e m e e t i n g is t o d is c u s s a n is s u e b e t w e e n
h i m s e l f a n d U n c l e Fa n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

O k a y.

A n d t h e n is t h a t w h a t y o u

c o n v e y e d a t s o m e p o in t i n y o u r a ff id a v i t ? I m ig h t h a v e m is s e d i t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m n o t s u r e i f i t is t h e r e o r n o t – c a n I j u s t
r e fl e c t o n it ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

J a b e c a u s e I s e e m to r e c a ll – I m i g h t

y o u k n o w I a m s p e a k i n g u n d e r c o r r e c t io n t h a t I h a v e r e a d y o u r
a ffi d a v i t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
3 .4 y o u k n o w a p p l ic a t i o n .

Th a t w a s d e p o s e d to i n s u p p o r t o f t h e

I d i d n o t s e e m to r e c a l l s e e in g th a t d u r in g

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
t h a t e x c h a n g e o f c a l ls , s ms ’ , y o u to l d h i m t h a t t h e r e a s o n f o r th e
m e e ti n g i t is s i m p ly to d i s c u s s t h e r u m o u r.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t i f y o u lo o k a t my a ffi d a v it S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A :

T h e r e is n o d e t a i li n g o f a n y s m s ’ , o r p h o n e

c a l ls e i t h e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: So I did not touch upon any of th ose topics at
a l l.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h is …
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y I j u s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d th a t

c o r r e c t ly. A r e y o u a d m i t t in g th a t i n t h e a ff id a v it t h a t y o u d e p o s e d t o i n
s u p p o r t o f y o u r a p p lic a ti o n fo r L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e M r J o n a s y o u
d i d n o t a n y w h e r e i n d ic a te t h a t y o u d i d n o t a n y w h e r e in t h e a ffi d a v it
in d i c a t e t h a t a h e a d o f t h e m e e t i n g y o u h a d t o l d h i m t h a t t h e p u r p o s e o f
t h e m e e t i n g y o u w e r e s e e k i n g to h a v e w a s t o d is c u s s th e r u m o u r. T h a t
is – t h a t is w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h a t I a m s a y in g is t h a t a n d m a n y o t h e r t o p ic s
t h a t m a y h a v e b e e n d i s c u s s e d t e le p h o n i c a l ly o r s ms – o r b y s m s .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I h a v e n o t i n c l u d e d i n my a ffi d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In t h e a ffi d a v i t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : Okay good.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d i f y o u l o o k a t y o u k n o w t h o s e

Page 48 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
p a r a g r a p h o f Mr J o n a s h e is d e t a ili n g y o u k n o w e v e n t h e t e x t o f th e
m e s s a g e s th a t w e r e e x c h a n g e d b e tw e e n t h e t w o o f y o u . H e g iv e s y o u
t h e t i m e fr a m e s a r o u n d w h e n t h i s te x t m e s s a g e w e r e e x c h a n g e d a n d
a ls o t h e t e l e p h o n e c a l ls t h a t w e r e m a d e b e tw e e n th e t w o o f y o u . N o w
w h a t I w a n t t o u n d e r s ta n d i s t h a t a l l th i s e ffo r t w a s s i m p l y m a d e i n
o r d e r t o d is c u s s t h e r u m o u r a n d t h a t is y o u r v e r s i o n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

O k a y.

N o w y o u a ls o s ta t e i n y o u r

a ffi d a v i t b e f o r e t h is c o m m i s s i o n t h a t a t s o m e p o i n t d u r in g t h a t m e e ti n g
10

o n e o f t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s d i d p e e p i n s i d e th e r o o m in o r d e r to
a s c e r t a i n y o u r a v a il a b i li ty fo r th e n e x t d a y i n a d i ff e r e n t m e e ti n g . A n d
y o u s a y th a t w a s R a j e s h G u p t a , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d M r M o k o e n a . L e t m e g o b a c k to
t h e e a r l ie r q u e s ti o n . S o y o u s a y t h a t i n o n e o r o t h e r c o n v e r s a ti o n o n
t h e p h o n e b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d M r J o n a s p r i o r t o th e 2 3 r d O c to b e r y o u
h a d to l d h i m w h a t th e m e e ti n g w a s a b o u t .

I t is j u s t th a t y o u d i d n o t

in c l u d e th a t i n th e a ffi d a v i t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A n d w h e n y o u t o l d h i m w h a t w a s h i s a t t it u d e ?
I ta k e it i t m ig h t h a v e b e e n – i t m i g h t o r m i g h t n o t h a v e b e e n I d o n o t
k n o w t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t h e h e a r d a b o u t t h e r e b e i n g r u m o u r s t h a t h a d
r e a c h e d y o u r e a r s – m a y b e r e a c h e d M r H lo n g w a n e ’s e a r s .

What was

h is r e a c t io n ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

H is – h is r e a c ti o n t h e w h o l e t i m e w a s v e r y

Page 49 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
relaxed and calm.

I t h i n k h e t o o k h is – h is u n d e r s ta n d i n g w i t h t h e

r e l a ti o n s h i p th a t h e m a y h a v e h a d w i th U n c le F a n a a t t h a t t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t t h a t f a c e v a l u e t o b e n o t h i n g u n to w a r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

So it was not – there were not any – any

a p p r e h e n s i o n s o f a n y s o r t . I t w a s l ik e o k a y if t h a t i s t h e c a s e w e w il l
do so.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

N o t s u b j e c t t o s c h e d u li n g a n a v a il a b i li ty th a t

o n ly h a p p e n e d a b i t fu r t h e r d o w n t h e l in e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

B u t t h e r e w a s n o h o s t il i ty o f a n y s o r t f r o m

a n y b o d y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e ll M r – Mr M o k e o n a m a y h a v e b e e n in t e n d in g
t o m e n ti o n t h i s b u t le t m e s a y. I n o n e o f t h e s t a te m e n ts t h a t I t h i n k M r
J o n a s d e p o s e d t o w h ic h is i n o n e o f th e fi le s h e r e f e r s to a m e e t in g o r
a n o c c a s i o n w h e n h e m e t w i t h Mr H lo n g w a n e in t h e p r e s e n c e o f
s o m e b o d y c a ll e d Mr B o n g a n i M o r e a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d it h e s a y s o n
20

t h a t o c c a s i o n M r H lo n g w a n e to l d h i m t h a t y o u w o u l d li k e t o t a l k to h i m
a n d – a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t i t w a s o n t h a t o c c a s io n t h a t h e t h e r e f o r e
a s k e d f o r y o u r n u m b e r t h a t is Mr J o n a s . I h o p e I a m g e t ti n g i t r i g h t . I s
t h e p o s it i o n t h a t h e w a s t h e f ir s t o n e t o m a k e c o n t a c t w it h y o u b e t w e e n
t h e t w o o f y o u t o m a k e c o n t a c t w i th y o u i n t e r m s o f e i th e r a p h o n e c a ll
o r a s ms ?

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I would be…
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e tw e e n t h e t w o o f y o u ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : C h a ir I d o n o t r e c a l l. I w i ll h a v e t o c h e c k t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

B u t I a m i n c l i n e d t o s a y t h a t I p r o b a b ly

c o n ta c t e d h i m fi r s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I w il l h a v e to c h e c k t h a t I a m n o t s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir th e …
CHAIRPERSON :

Th a n k y o u .

Yo u s e e t h e c o n t e x t o f th a t q u e s t i o n

w o u ld b e – I m e a n t h e y w e r e m e e t i n g t h a t i s M r H l o n g w a n e a n d M r
J o n a s o n th a t o c c a s io n .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr i o r to t h e 2 3 r d . I f – a n d I t h i n k i t w a s – i t m a y h a v e
b e e n O c t o b e r o r S e p t e m b e r I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r. S o i f …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I t is S e p te m b e r ?
CHAIRPERSON :

R e a l ly H lo n g w a n e w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t r u m o u r s

a b o u t s o m e t h i n g th a t M r J o n a s w a s s a i d t o b e – I m e a n r u m o u r s t h a t h e
20

w a s s a i d to b e s p r e a d i n g o n e w o u l d h a v e th o u g h t th a t h e w o u l d h a v e
t a lk e d t o h i m a b o u t t h e m to tr y a n d r e s o lv e it o r t o l d h i m w h a t y o u
w a n t e d t o t a l k t o h i m a b o u t r a th e r t h a n s a y to h i m s o m e b o d y t h a t y o u
h a v e n e v e r m e t w a n ts t o ta lk t o y o u a b o u t i t . B u t w e h a v e d is c u s s e d
t h e i s s u e b u t I j u s t p u t t h a t a n g le fo r t h e s a k e o f c o m p l e te n e s s . B u t i f
t h e r e i s s o m e th in g y o u w a n t t o s a y a b o u t i t fe e l fr e e t o d o s o .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : N o I t h i n k w e h a v e c o v e r e d t h a t p o i n t . T h a n k
y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y t h a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir w e d o n o t e v e n n e e d t o s p e c u l a t e
a b o u t t h e c h r o n o l o g y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I f o n e tu r n s t o p a g e 4 w h e r e I h a v e

r e fe r r e d t o p a g e 4 a n d p a r a g r a p h 3 , 4 a n d 5 a n d I th in k t h a t w o u l d
a s s is t a n d b r i n g li g h t t o th e q u e s t io n s o f t h e C h a ir.
10

“ Mr J o n a s is a t o n o r a p p r o x i m a t e ly 2 7 , 2 8 A u g u s t
2015 when I was in Luanda at an African caucus of
fi n a n c e m i n is t e r s .

I recall being contacted by Mr

F a n a H l o n g w a n e w h o m I k n e w r e la t iv e ly w e ll t e l li n g
m e t h a t M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a w o u l d lik e t o s p e a k t o
m e t o i n v i t e m e to a n a w a r d s c e r e m o n y.
4 . I s u b s e q u e n tly m e t M r H l o n g w a n e d u r i n g O c t o b e r
2 0 1 5 i n J o h a n n e s b u r g in t h e p r e s e n c e o f M r B o n g a n i
…”
C h a ir y o u a r e r e f e r r i n g t o h i m a s M o r e
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a y I th in k I w o u l d b e s a f e t o m e n ti o n t o
him as More.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m e m b a r r a s s e d . Ye s s o i t m i g h t b e M o r e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t m i g h t b e M o r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
“ Bo n g a n i M o r e a n d w h o to l d m e th a t M r D u d u z a n e
Z u m a w a n t e d t o m e e t m e . D u r in g th e c o u r s e o f t h e
c o n v e r s a ti o n h e m e n t io n e d t h a t th e G u p ta ’ s w e r e
important to him. I indicated that I would not want to
b e a s s o c i a te d w i t h t h e G u p t a ’s .
5 . I a s k e d M r H l o n g w a n e to p r o v i d e m e w i th M r
D u d u z a n e Z u m a ’s n u m b e r. I h a d n o t p r e v io u s ly m e t
M r D u d u z a n e Zu m a n o r h a d a n y p r e v i o u s i n te r a c t io n s
w i t h h i m .”

10

A n d t h a t is w h a t y o u k n o w t h e c o n t e x t a b o u t t h e q u e s ti o n s o f th e C h a ir.
N o w m o v i n g to t h e to p ic t h a t w e d e a l i n g w i t h i s th a t y o u s a y t h a t y o u
w e r e s u r e t h a t th e p e r s o n w h o p e e p e d in – i n t h e r o o m w a s Mr R a j e s h
Gupta?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : And you say that you are certain that it
w a s h i m d e f in i t e ly ?
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w m a y I r e fe r y o u to f il e n u m b e r B . I f
y o u c o u ld p u t f i l e n u m b e r A a w a y. F il e B p a g e 5 1 7 .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o r r y i t is 5 1 7 ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , y e s M r D u d u z a n e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a n k y o u S ir.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e d i d v is i t t h is tr a n s c r i p t b e fo r e b u t f o r
d i ff e r e n t r e a s o n s .
CHAIRPERSON : What page did you say?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 5 1 7 C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . I f y o u g o t o l in e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It m a y b e – M r – I a m s o r r y M r M o k o e n a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :
10

I t m a y b e t h a t w e s h o u l d – y o u s h o u l d tr y a n d

a p p r o a c h t h e e n d o f th e …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h is l i n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : In r e l a ti o n to …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr J o n a s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I w il l t r y to – I w i ll tr y t o d o t h a t C h a ir.
517 Line 19 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I w i ll ju s t r e a d t o y o u w h a t M r

H l o n g w a n e t o l d t h e P P i n r e l a ti o n to w h o m i g h t h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t o r
20

n o t a n d I w il l d o it q u ic k ly.

I n o r d e r t o s a v e ti m e I w il l r e a d i t . Fr o m

li n e 1 9 h e s a y s :
“ T h e m e e ti n g w a s e s s e n ti a lly a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n u s
as comrades.

A N C c o mr a d e s t o a d d r e s s t h e i s s u e

t h a t w a s d is t u r b i n g t o m e , D u d u z a n e – t o m e .
D u d u z a n e k n o w s th e p e o p le i n t h a t s p a c e I d o n o t .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
S o m e b o d y d id c o m e in t o th a t s p a c e .

I w o u ld – f o r

m e I m a d e a n a s s u m p t io n t h a t i t is a m e m b e r o f t h e
G u p t a f a m i ly.

Somebody slim – somebody of slim

h e i g h t , s l i m b u il d e n t e r e d th e r o o m . H e w a s c l e a r l y
k n o w n t o D u d u z a n e a n d b r i e fl y – a n d le f t .

Whether

t h e p e r s o n w a s l o o k in g f o r a n o t h e r m e e ti n g o r
a n o t h e r p e r s o n I c a n n o t s a y to y o u b u t D u d u z a n e …
t h e n t h e q u e s t i o n is p o s e d d id th a t p e r s o n s p e a k t o
Mr Jonas no.
the room?

10

Did you ever have occasion to leave

No I did not have occasion to leave the

r o o m .”
A n d t h e n li n e n u m b e r 6 r i g h t o n p a g e 1 5 o f y o u r a ffi d a v it p a r a g r a p h 2 7
you say:
“ I d e n y th a t Mr AJ AY G u p t a w a s p r e s e n t a t t h e
m e e ti n g o r t h a t a n y m e m b e r o f th e G u p t a f a m ily e v e r
p a r t ic ip a t e d i n t h e d is c u s s i o n s b e t w e e n o u r s e l v e s .
I n t h i s r e g a r d I c a n c a te g o r ic a ll y s ta t e t h a t I h a d n o t
m e t A J AY G u p t a a t t h a t s t a g e .

H e w a s c o m p le t e l y

u n k n o w n to t h e – u n k n o w n t o m e t h e n . E a r li e r o n I
20

t h o u g h t y o u s a i d y o u m e t AJ AY b e f o r e t h a t m e e t in g
at a Parkhurst.

No, no I can explain.

O k a y.

W it h

t h is th in g A d v o c a t e – n o A d v o c a te I d i d n o t s a y I m e t
A J AY e a r li e r o n I s a i d I m e t R a j e s h fo r lu n c h w i th
D u d u z a n e . O h w a s it R a j e s h i n P a r k h u r s t ? Ye s .”
O k a y. O n p a r a g r a p h 2 8 y o u s a y :

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
“ T h e r e i s a p e r s o n w h o c a m e i n to th e r o o m .
d e f in i te ly n o t A J AY.

It was

Yo u s a i d y o u h a d m e t R a j e s h

b e f o r e , w a s it R a j e s h ? ”
M r H lo g w a n e s a y s t h e n :
“ T h e p e r s o n th a t c a m e i n w a s i n b u i ld Mr Fr a n s
L e k u b o i n b u i l d a n d h e i g h t s o i t w a s n o t t h e f e l lo w I
h a d l u n c h w i th a t P a r k h u r s t . S o i t w a s n o t A J AY ?
M r H l o n g w a n e s a y s n u m b e r 1 it w a s n o t t h e fe ll o w I
h a d l u n c h w i t h i n P a r k h u r s t a n d t h e fe ll o w y o u h a d
10

lu n c h y o u s a y i t w a s R a je s h ?

M r H lo n g w a n e s a y s

R a j e s h y e s a n d i t w a s n o t a n y o f t h e f e m a le ’s t w o
b r o t h e r s . M a y b e t h e r e is m o r e b u t i t w a s n o t a n y o f
t h e fe m a l e ’s b r o t h e r s .

I t w a s n o t AJ AY, it w a s n o t

R a j e s h . Ye s .”
T h a t is w h a t h e s a y s .
“ Ar e y o u s u r e i t w a s n o t R a j e s h t h a t y o u h a d lu n c h
with in Parkhurst?”
Ye s I a m s u r e i t w a s . N o w i f I c a n s i m p ly p a u s e t h e r e a n d I a m s i m p ly
p o s i n g th is q u e s t i o n s o t h a t a t le a s t t h i s p a r t o f e v i d e n c e m u s t b e c l e a r
20

a ls o a t t h e C h a ir. O n th e o n e h a n d y o u a r e s a y i n g th a t d e fi n i t e l y i t w a s
R a j e s h t h a t c a m e i n . Mr H l o n g w a n e s a y s t h a t n o i t w a s n o t R a j e s h a n d
it w a s n o t a n y o f th e fe m a l e ’s y o u k n o w b r o th e r s . A n d th e q u e s t io n is
t h a t w h ic h v e r s i o n s h o u l d t h e C h a ir b e l i e v e w h e n h e a s s e s s e s th is
evidence?

W h o r e a lly c a m e in ?

Who was there?

W h o i t te ll i n g t h e

tr u th ? W h o is n o t te ll in g t h e tr u th ? Yo u o r y o u r u n c le ?

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

I b e l ie v e l o o k in g a t th e e v e n t s a n d t h e

v e r s i o n s fr o m w h a t t h e u n c l e i s s a y in g – U n c l e F a n a I c a n n o t – I c a n n o t
g iv e a n o p i n i o n . I c a n n o t g iv e a v ie w o n i t . H e w a s t h e r e , h e w a s s a w
w h a t h e s a w. H e d i d s e e w h a t h e d id n o t s e e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I k n o w w h a t I s a w. I k n o w th e la y o f t h e l a n d
in t h a t h o u s e v e r y w e ll . T h e g e n t l e m a n t h a t w a l k e d in w a s a Mr R a j e s h
Gupta.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
10

Ye s .

A n d I a m p o s in g t h is q u e s ti o n

b e c a u s e h e s e e m s to s a y t o th e P P – t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r b u t h e h a d
met Rajesh before.

H e k n o w s h i m a n d h e is d e fi n i t e l y s u r e th a t t h e

person that came in was Mr Rajesh.

A n d o n th e o n e h a n d y o u a r e

s a y in g t h a t w e ll i t w a s R a j e s h . A n d I a m s i m p ly p u t ti n g t h a t s o t h a t y o u
k n o w o n e m u s t a t l e a s t k n o w w h a t r e a ll y tr a n s p ir e d o n th e d a y a n d w h o
w a s p r e s e n t o n t h e d a y. A n d b o t h o f y o u a r e c e r t a i n a b o u t w h a t y o u
a r e s a y i n g . B u t n o w b o t h v e r s io n s u n f o r t u n a t e l y c a n n o t b e r e c o n c il e d .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : H o w s o ? H o w s o S ir ?
ADV PHILLIP M OKOENA SC : Because Mr Hlongwane says that Rajesh
n e v e r c a m e i n i t w a s n o t R a j e s h . A n d y o u s a y t h a t it w a s R a je s h .
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I c a n o n ly s p e a k f o r w h a t I k n o w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you very m uch.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s f a r a s y o u k n o w d i d M r H lo n g w a n e k n o w M r R a j e s h
G u p t a q u i t e w e l l? I t h in k e a r li e r o n t h e r e w a s r e f e r e n c e t o I t h i n k h is
a ffi d a v i t th a t is Mr H l o n g w a n e w h e r e h e s e e m s t o h a v e s a i d h e h a d

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
v is it e d t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e s e v e r a l t i m e s . S o a s f a r y o u k n o w d i d h e
k n o w h i m q u it e w e ll ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A t th a t p o i n t d e f in it e l y n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s f a r a s y o u k n o w h e d id n o t k n o w h i m q u i t e w e l l a t
t h a t ti m e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Ye s I a m t h e o n e t h a t i n tr o d u c e d t h e t w o o f

t h e m s o I k n o w t h e y d i d n o t k n o w e a c h o th e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W e ll th a t i s c o r r e c t .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

A n d t h e o th e r G u p t a b r o t h e r s d o y o u k n o w

w h e t h e r h e k n e w th e m q u i t e w e ll ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is I d o n o t t h i n k h e h a d m e t
t h e m p r i o r t o t h is e v e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : To th a t m e e ti n g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O r – j a t h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m o k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : But I mean he appeared to be very sure
fr o m w h a t I h a v e r e a d y o u k n o w w h e n h e t o l d t h e P P h e w a s c le a r ly
20

s u r e t h a t i t w a s R a j e s h – i t w a s n o t R a j e s h th a t c a m e i n a n d h e s a i d
t h e r e a s o n w h y h e k n o w s i t w a s n o t h i m i t is b e c a u s e h e h a s m e t w i t h
h i m b e fo r e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is e x a c tl y w h a t i t a p p e a r s t o b e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : W e a r e r e a d i n g t h e s a m e d o c u m e n t b u t I w a s

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
n o t t h e r e w h e n th e P u b lic P r o te c to r m e e t i n g w a s h a p p e n i n g s o I c a n n o t
comment on that.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w l e t u s a l s o d e a l w i t h a n o t h e r p o in t
t h a t is n o t q u it e c l e a r w h il e y o u a r e s ti ll o n th a t fi l e a n d I a m t r y i n g t o
m o v e a s f a s t a s I c a n b e c a u s e th e C h a ir h a v e t o l d m e t o w r a p u p th is
is s u e . I f y o u t u r n t o p a g e 7 2 4
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: 74?
CHAIRPERSON : 724 yes.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : 7 2 4 o k a y.
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O r m a y b e y o u c a n e v e n l e a v e t h a t. G o
to 729.

Th a t is t h e a ffi d a v i t o f M r A J AY G u p t a w h ic h w a s a l s o

s u b m i tt e d b e f o r e t h is c o m m is s i o n . T h e r e l e v a n t p o r ti o n M r Z u m a is t h e
o n e th a t a p p e a r s o n p a g e 7 3 3 . If y o u c a n g o t o p a g e 7 3 3 . A n d I j u s t
w a n t t o r e a d p a r a g r a p h 1 2 s o t h a t w e c a n c l e a r u p w h a t r e a l ly
h a p p e n e d a n d w h o w a s p r e s e n t.

P a r a g r a p h 1 2 M r G u p t a s a y s to t h e

f o ll o w i n g t o t h e C h a ir.
“ I a ls o g a v e e v i d e n c e u n d e r o a t h t o t h e P u b l ic
P r o t e c t o r d e n y i n g t h e a l l e g a ti o n s a n d t h e v e r s i o n s
c la i m e d b y Mr J o n a s a n d I a ls o d e p o s e to a n a ffi d a v it
20

in t h e M i n is t e r o f F in a n c e a p p l ic a ti o n i n t h e h ig h
c o u r t Pr e to r i a w h ic h is s e l f - e x p l a n a t o r y.

I p o in t o u t

t h a t i t is h i g h ly u n li k e ly th a t t h e m e e t in g t o o k p l a c e
b e c a u s e i f i t d i d in t h e m a n n e r a ll e g e d b y M r J o n a s
h e w o u l d i m m e d ia t e l y h a v e r e p o r t e d i t t o t h e n e a r e s t
p o li c e s ta t io n a s h e – a s a n y o t h e r o r d i n a r y c i ti z e n

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
w a s l e g a lly o b l ig e d a n d d u ty b o u n d u n d e r th e l a w to
d o .”
N o w h e r e is a n a ffi d a v i t w h i c h w a s d e p o s e d t o y e a r s a ft e r t h e in c i d e n t
in q u e s t i o n a n d M r G u p ta i s n o w s a y in g t h a t h e d o u b t s – h e s a y t h a t I
p o i n t o u t i t i s h ig h ly u n li k e ly t h a t t h e m e e ti n g t o o k p l a c e .

I am sure

t h a t y o u d o n o t a g r e e w i t h h i m . I m e a n y o u r v e r s i o n i s t h a t t h e m e e ti n g
d i d ta k e p l a c e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w m a y I r e f e r y o u t o f il e A . Fi l e
10

A if you may turn to page – if I am correct – page 23.

N o w b e fo r e

p u t t in g y o u k n o w c l a r i fy i n g q u e s t io n s w i t h th a t d o c u m e n t w o u l d I b e
c o r r e c t t h a t y o u w e r e e i th e r d ir e c t ly o r i n d ir e c tl y y o u k n o w p a r t a n d
p a r c e l o f t h e O a k b a y in v e s t m e n t e i th e r t h r o u g h o th e r e n ti t ie s o r in y o u r
personal capacity?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h r o u g h o t h e r e n ti ti e s c o r r e c t S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o r r y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : I am correct?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

N o w t h e r e is t h is p r e s s r e l e a s e i f y o u

c a n l o o k a t th e d a t e i s t h e 1 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 6 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is i t?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : P a g e 2 3 C h a ir.

2 3 Fi le N u m b e r A .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h I t h o u g h t I w a s t h e r e . In fi l e A ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : F il e A C h a ir.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w h a t I h a v e t h e r e is n o t a s ta t e m e n t.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Is th is t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s in t e r a c ti o n ?
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja.

I t is P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r s R e p o r t . I h a v e s e e n t h a t

s t a te m e n t t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t b u t it is n o t h e r e . I t is n o t o n p a g e
23.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Page 23.
CHAIRPERSON : 23?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Oh okay no I am sorry I am – I think I am looking at
10

the black numbers.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Rather than the white – the red numbers.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t h a p p e n s a s w e p r o c e e d i n t h e d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Z u m a w e r e y o u a ls o l o o k i n g a t th e b l a c k n u m b e r s ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o w h ic h fi le is i t ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : F il e A .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: A?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : J a A . A n d g o to p a g e 2 3 . C o n c e n tr a te
on the red numbering. I know that it might be confusing because these

20

d o c u m e n ts w e r e u s e d .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll e v e n t h e r e d o n e i s n o t th e s t a te m e n t i t i s s ti ll

t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r …
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

I t A d v o c a te – t h e A d v o c a t e M a d o n s e l a ’s s t a r t

o f h e r [i n d is t in c t ] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr Z u m a y o u r p a g e – y o u r r e d …

Page 61 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m o n th e s a m e p a g e a s y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s a m e .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h e l in e 2 is w h e r e t h e A d v o c a t e M a d o n s e la

s t a r ts .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Um.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a ir i t i s a d o c u m e n t i m m e d i a te ly a f te r
M r J o n a s ’ s t a te m e n t – w i tn e s s s ta t e m e n t . I t f o ll o w s i m m e d i a te ly o n fi l e
A.
10

M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

S o r r y M r M o k o e n a p a g e 2 2 is t h e e n d o f M r

J o n a s ’ s ta t e m e n t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

P a g e 2 3 s t a r ts o ff w i th t h e o p e n in g o f t h e

m e e ti n g o f A d v o c a t e M a d o n s e la ’s i n t e r v i e w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M r C h a ir f o r s o m e o d d r e a s o n m i n e – I
d o h a v e t h e f il e – i t w a s h a n d e d in a s E x h i b i t C 2 b y M r [ in d is ti n c t ] .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s I h a v e s e e n th e s t a te m e n t b u t c e r ta i n ly n o t o n

t h is p a g e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
20

Ye s m i n e i s 2 3 th e le g a l t e a m is 2 3 a s

w e ll o f Mr …
CHAIRPERSON :

J a I t h in k s o m e b o d y is s a b o t a g i n g m e a n d th e

witness.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Fo r a m o m e n t I w a s t h i n k i n g th a t I a m

lo o k in g a t d i ff e r e n t f il e s a l t o g e t h e r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t I – I l o o k e d a t t h a t s ta t e m e n t l a s t n ig h t .

Page 62 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u w a n t t o – i f th e w i t n e s s h a s g o t i t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u c a n g o a h e a d a n d p u t t h e q u e s ti o n i n th e

meantime.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

N o w t h i s – t h i s is t h e p r e s s r e le a s e

w h ic h w a s m a d e o n t h e 1 3 t h M a r c h 2 0 1 6 a n d t h e e s s e n c e o f t h e
m e e ti n g – o f th is p r e s s r e l e a s e I d o n o t h a v e t o r e a d it .

It was read

in t o t h e r e c o r d b e f o r e . I s t h a t i f y o u lo o k t o w a r d s t h e m i d d l e i t s a y s :
“ To b e a b s o l u te ly c le a r t h e r e w a s n o m e e ti n g a t a ll .”

10

Can you see?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s I s e e i t . T h e o n e l i n e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s th a t o n e li n e r.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Now was this correct what was conveyed
b y O a k b a y o n t h e 1 3 t h M a r c h 2 0 1 6 t h a t t h e r e w a s n e v e r a m e e ti n g a t
a l l?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A m e e t in g w i t h w h o ? Is t h e q u e s t i o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
20

W i t h y o u r s e l f , J o n a s , Mr J o n a s a n d M r

Hlongwane?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e m e e t in g s m o s t …
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll I a m s o r r y M r Z u m a m a y b e y o u d o n e e d M r

M o k o e n a t o j u s t r e a d p a r t s o f th is s t a te m e n t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t h i n k s o C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o th a t h e u n d e r s t a n d s t h e c o n te x t j a .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I w a s a v o id i n g t o d o th a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s j a
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : L e t u s r e a d it .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s p le a s e S ir th a t w il l b e h e lp f u l .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
“ At h o l G u p t a n o t e v e n i n t h e c o u n t r y o n th e 2 7 M a r c h f a c e l e s s ,
p e r v e r s e o f t h is li e s s h o u l d p r o d u c e e v id e n c e to s u p p o r t … ”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I a m s o r r y M r M o k o e n a . I k n o w y o u a r e
doing that because I said you shou ld …
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : (Intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON : Approach …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

b y f in is h i n g o n t h i s i s s u e .

T h e - t h e s ta t e m e n t

a p p e a r s to b e a m e d i a s t a te m e n t . I t h i n k w a s a m e d i a s t a te m e n t …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : And at the top it says:
“News and Analysis”
And then it says:
“Oakbay”
20

A n d t h e n t h e h e a d in g i s :
“ Mc e b is i J o n a s :

t h e r e w a s n o m e e t in g - G u p ta

f a m ily ”
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

I t h i n k y o u c a n j u s t r e a d t h e - y o u k n o w s o th a t h e

understands the context.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d - a n d t h e s e c o n d p o r ti o n t h a t I w a s
ju s t a b o u t t o r e a d s a y s :
“ St a t e m e n t fr o m O a k b a y I n v e s t m e n t o n b e h a l f o f t h e
G u p t a F a m ily i n r e s p o n s e to t h e S u n d a y Ti m e s
A r t ic le - H o w G u p t a s S h o p p e d f o r N e w M i n is t e r 13 March 2016.
F a m ily.

I s s u e d o n b e h a lf o f t h e G u p t a

Johannesburg

South

A f r ic a

Sunday

1 3 M a r c h 2 0 1 3 . “ T h e r e h a v e b e e n a n e x t r a o r d in a r y
n u m b e r o f a l le g a t i o n s a r o u n d t h e G u p t a f a m il y in
r e c e n t w e e k s s e v e r a l o f w h ic h h a v e i n v o lv e d t h e

10

Fi n a n c e M i n i s te r. A s w e h a v e s a i d c o u n tl e s s ti m e s
o u r p r i m a r y f o c u s is o n b u s in e s s n o t p o l it ic s ( s e e
S u n d a y Ti m e s R e p o r t) .

W e c h a l le n g e t h e f a c e l e s s

p u r v e y o r s o f th e s e l ie s t o p r o v i d e e v id e n c e o f a n y
o f t h is a ll e g a t i o n s .

To b e a b s o lu t e ly c l e a r t h e r e

w a s n o m e e ti n g a t a ll .” ”
A n d y o u m u s t r e a d t h a t w i t h t h e c a p ti o n t h a t t h e C h a ir h a s
a c t u a ll y r e a d a n d a ls o i n r e p o r t to s a y y o u k n o w to t h e a l le g a ti o n s t h a t
a r e a c t u a ll y b e i n g i n d ic a te d t h e r e . H o w t h e G u p t a s s h o p p e d f o r a n e w
20

M i n is t e r.
CHAIRPERSON :

S o I - I t h i n k M r Z u m a w h a t th e c o n te x t is t h a t a f t e r

M r J o n a s ’ a ll e g a t io n s h a d b e e n p u b l is h e d i n t h e m e d i a t h a t th e r e h a d
b e e n a m e e ti n g a t t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e a t w h ic h y o u w e r e p r e s e n t a c c o r d i n g t o h i s v e r s i o n - w h e r e h e s a id h e w a s o ff e r e d th e p o s i ti o n o f
M i n is t e r o f F i n a n c e a n d w a s o ff e r e d I th in k R 6 0 0 mi ll i o n .

Page 65 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A f t e r t h a t h a d c o m e o u t th is m e d i a s t a te m e n t w a s t h e n
is s u e d .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

It says Oakbay and it says there was no meeting.

T h a t is w h a t t h e G u p t a f a m ily is s a y i n g . S o th a t - t h a t is i n th e c o n t e x t
…
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

And what they were saying here is that as I

u n d e r s t a n d i t t h o s e w h o s a y t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g m u s t c o m e f o r w a r d
10

with evidence.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o I th in k Mr M o k o e n a i s …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

Is a s k i n g y o u w h e t h e r y o u w is h to c o m m e n t o n t h is

s t a te m e n t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t is h e l p fu l .

T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h C h a ir.

Ye s I d o w i s h t o c o m m e n t . I f y o u g o to li n e t h r e e i n b o l d i t s a y s :
“ St a t e m e n t fr o m O a k b a y I n v e s t m e n ts o n b e h a l f o f
t h e G u p ta F a m i ly in r e s p o n s e t o th e S u n d a y Ti m e s
20

A r t ic le .”
N o w t h i s r e s p o n s e w a s m a d e b y t h e ir s p o k e s p e r s o n w h o e v e r
o n b e h a l f o f th e G u p ta f a m i ly. I f t h a t is w h a t t h e y a r e s a y i n g t h e n t h a t
is w h a t t h e y a r e s a y in g . W e r e t h e y p a r t o f th e m e e ti n g ? I s a id n o n e o f
t h e m w e r e p a r t o f t h e m e e t in g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

Page 66 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o y o u r q u e s t io n I a m tr y in g t o - I a m tr y i n g to
- t o g e t a b i t m o r e c la r i ty fr o m y o u r s i d e s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ja.

T h e q u e s t io n is n o t w h a t w a s

d is c u s s e d o r w h o w a s p r e s e n t .

T h e q u e s ti o n s i m p ly i s t h a t y o u k n o w

t h e y - y o u a r e s a y i n g a n d y o u h a v e t o ld t h e C h a ir t h a t w e ll t h e m e e ti n g
d i d h a p p e n . Th e y …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M o s t d e f i n i t e ly d i d , y e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d t h e y a r e s a y in g t h a t t h e m e e ti n g
d i d n o t h a p p e n . W e a r e tr y i n g t o s i m p ly a n d y o u w e r e a t - a t t h a t p o i n t
10

p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f O a k b a y I n v e s t m e n ts . A m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . I n o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r. T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d t h is s t a t e m e n t w a s m a d e o n

b e h a l f o f O a k b a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O n b e h a l f o f th e G u p t a fa m i ly b y O a k b a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : B y O a k b a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w w h ic h i s t h e c o r r e c t v e r s io n .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Hm.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Wa s t h e r e a m e e t in g o r w a s t h e r e n o t a
20

m e e ti n g ? W h o w a s … ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
t h e G u p t a f a m ily.

I p o i n t o u t y o u t o t h e s a m e li n e o n b e h a l f o f

S o I c a n n o t b e a t tr i b u te d t o a r e s p o n s e t h a t w a s

made on behalf …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: I see.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

O f th e G u p t a fa m il y.

Page 67 of 176

Fr o m m y s id e I s ta t e d

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
v e r y c l e a r ly t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

W h o w a s p r e s e n t in th e - p r e s e n t i n t h e

m e e ti n g I h a v e m a d e th a t v e r y c l e a r s ir. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d n o t n e c e s s a r i ly t h a t y o u m i g h t b e a b l e t o

comment on this but one would have expected that before Oakbay
is s u e d th is s t a t e m e n t o n b e h a lf o f t h e G u p t a f a m il y t h e y w o u l d h a v e
c h e c k e d w i t h a ll th e G u p t a b r o th e r s t o s e e w h e t h e r a n y o n e o f th e m
s a y s - is a w a r e o f a n y m e e ti n g t h a t to o k p l a c e a n d i f a n y o n e o f t h e m
10

w a s a w a r e th e n m a y b e th e y w o u l d h a v e s a i d t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g b u t
m a y b e w e w e r e n o t in v o lv e d i n t h a t m e e t in g . I t i n v o l v e d o t h e r p e o p l e .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o r r y.

W h o - w h o w a s n o t i n v o lv e d ?

Sor ry

C h a ir. M a y b e w h o w a s n o t … ?
CHAIRPERSON :

N o I a m s a y i n g i f O a k b a y b e fo r e is s u i n g t h e

s t a te m e n t o n b e h a l f o f t h e G u p t a f a m i ly.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O n e w o u l d h a v e e x p e c t e d th a t th e y w o u ld h a v e

checked with all the Gupta brothers whether they were aware of any
s u c h m e e t in g y o u k n o w a n d i f t h e y - i f t h e in f o r m a t io n fr o m a n y o n e o f
20

t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s w a s t h a t I a m a w a r e t h a t t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g b u t I
was not involved.
M a y b e t h e s t a t e m e n t w o u l d s a y t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g b u t n o n e
o f t h e G u p t a - t h e r e w a s a m e e ti n g a t t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e b u t i t
in v o lv e d s o a n d s o a n d s o a n d s o a n d n o t a n y G u p t a b r o t h e r.
understand?

Page 68 of 176

Yo u

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I u n d e r s ta n d . I t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I t is d e f in i te ly o p e n t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : In t e r p r e ta t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I t h in k j u s t f o r - f o r c l a r i ty.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e s t a t e m e n t a s - a s I s a id w a s o n b e h a l f o f
10

t h e G u p t a f a m ily.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h o d is c u s s e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : H o w th e y c o n v e y e d t h a t m e s s a g e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : ( I n te r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w e r e n o t p a r t o f …
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I was not part of …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O f t h a t?

20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : ( I n d is ti n c t) p r e s e n t i n th e m e e t i n g .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : In t e r p r e ta t io n fr o m m y - m y s i d e w o u l d b e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e y w e r e tr y in g t o s ta t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e y w e r e n o t p a r t o f t h e m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Th e r e is a n o th e r a l te r n a te h y p o t h e s i s t h a t i s

being put forward.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Th a t t h e y k n e w. W h y d i d t h e y n o t m e n ti o n t h a t
a n d th a t i s s o m e t h in g th a t y o u - y o u h a v e e x p a n d e d o n .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n th a t . I c a n c o m m e n t o n 10

o n m y i n v o lv e m e n t . N o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Me

being

a

-

a

shareholder

-

a

cold

s h a r e h o l d e r i n O a k b a y a n d w h a t e v e r e l s e - w h a te v e r o t h e r c o m p a n ie s
e x i s t. T h a t is - th a t is a m a t t e r o f f a c t b u t t h i s s t a t e m e n t i t c a n n o t b e
a tt r i b u t e d to m e t h o u g h . I c a n n o t b e d r a w n i n to t h e s a m e - t h e s a m e
boat.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w e r e n o t p a r t y t o i ts p r e p a r a ti o n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M o s t d e f i n i t e ly n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I a m t r y i n g t o ju m p a n u m b e r o f t h in g s

t h a t I w o u l d h a v e a c t u a lly w i s h e d to c o n v e y w i t h y o u - to - t o c a n v a s
w i t h y o u . M r J o n a s in f o r m e d th e C h a i r a b o u t th e e v e n ts y o u k n o w p o s t
t h e m e e t i n g o f 2 3 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 . H e w e n t a t l e n g t h y o u k n o w i n fo r m i n g
t h e C h a ir h o w h e a r r a n g e d th e m e e t i n g s t o m e e t w i t h M r N e n e i n o r d e r

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
to tell him about what happened.
I m e a n i n h i s v e r s io n is t h a t - h e s a i d th a t t h e r e w e r e o ff e r s
t h a t w e r e m a d e t o h i m - m o n e t a r y o ff e r s a n d - a n d a M in i s t e r i a l
p o s i ti o n .

H e a l s o c o n ta c t e d M r G o r d h a n .

He contacted the ANC

G e n e r a l S e c r e t a r y a t t h e t i m e . H e w e n t t o L u th u li H o u s e a n d in f o r m e d
M r Ziz i G o d o .
H e i n f o r m e d t h e A N C Tr e a s u r y G e n e r a l a b o u t t h e e v e n t s o f
2 3 O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 a n d w h a t y o u k n o w I s i m p ly d o - d o n o t u n d e r s t a n d
fr o m a ll t h e s e th i n g s i f t h e s e o ffe r s d i d n o t h a p p e n w h y w o u l d h e g o t o
10

s u c h a n e x t e n t a n d th e le n g t h o f y o u k n o w i n f o r m i n g p e o p l e i n t h o s e
i m p o r t a n t p o s it i o n s a b o u t w h a t h e s a id h a p p e n e d o n t h e d a y.
D o y o u k n o w w h y - w h y w o u l d h e fa b r ic a t e t h e s e li e s a g a i n s t
you?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h e n - w h e n y o u a s k e d h i m w h a t d id y o u s a y
Mr Mokoena because I cannot give you an answer on that?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u d o n o t k n o w ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

20

W h a t - w h a t r e s p o n s e d id h e g iv e i f y o u

recollect.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

H is a n s w e r w a s t h a t t h e r e w e r e o ff e r s

that were made on 23 October …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

2 0 1 5 w h i c h w e r e d is g u s ti n g to h i m a n d

w h ic h w e r e m a d e b y p e o p le w h o d id n o t - w e r e n o t - n o t e v e n s u p p o s e d

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
t o m a k e t h o s e o ff e r s a n d h e w a s a ls o m a d e o ff e r s o f m o n e y - 6 0 0
m il li o n .

I f h e a c c e p ts t h e o ffe r o f M i n is t e r i a l p o s i ti o n 6 0 0 0 0 0 o n th e

s p o t a n d t h a t is t h e r e a s o n a f t e r t h e m e e t in g h e t o o k s u c h a n e ff o r t t o
t e ll t h o s e o t h e r i n d iv i d u a ls .
N o w t h a t is - t h a t is w h y a n d y o u r v e r s io n is t h a t h e - h e is
ly i n g . Th o s e t h in g s d i d n o t h a p p e n . M y q u e s ti o n i s t h a t w h y w o u l d h e
g o t o s u c h e x te n t t o fa b r ic a te s u c h l i e s a g a i n s t y o u . D o y o u h a v e a n y
r e a s o n w h y h e w o u ld - h e w o u l d li e a b o u t y o u ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I - I h a v e n o i d e a . I d o n o t w a n t t o - to ju m p
10

in t o s p e c u la t io n …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : B u t i f I m a y j u s t a d d s o m e t h i n g to t h a t a s w e ll .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I t h i n k a n o t h e r q u e s ti o n t h a t s h o u ld b e p o s e d

is w h y d i d n o t a n y o n e a s k m e fo r m y - m y v ie w - f o r my v e r s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : P le a s e j u s t r e p e a t th a t ( i n te r v e n e s ) .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m s a y i n g fr o m t h e o t h e r s i d e I m e a n I a ls o
n e e d t o a s k w h y m y v i e w o r m y v e r s io n w a s n o t r e q u e s te d a t t h e t i m e
20

b e c a u s e t h e r e is e m p h a s is o n a ti m e f r a m e .

T h i s w a s r a is e d in t h e

m e d i a . T h e r e w a s m e d i a s t a te m e n ts p u t o u t. T h e m a n w e n t o u t o n T V
a n d s a i d w h a t e v e r h e n e e d e d to s a y. I a m n o t t a k in g a w a y fr o m w h y h e
d i d i t . I d o n o t k n o w.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: He did what he had to do.

Page 72 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Good for him.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I h a v e n o is s u e s w i t h t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o w w h a t I a m s a y in g is i t is t h e fir s t ti m e I a m
b e i n g a s k e d th is q u e s ti o n .

Th e o n l y ti m e I - I c a m e a c r o s s it w a s in

3 .3 . I w a s n o t g i v e n a n o p p o r t u n i ty b y t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Yo u d o n o t s e e m y - m y r e c o r d i n t h e P u b l ic …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r R e p o r t.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Did you ask why?
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No.
CHAIRPERSON : Of - of course maybe this can be said. As I read one
o f t h e a ffi d a v it s d e p o s e d to b y Mr A ja y G u p t a h e s a y s h e w a s n o t
a p p r o a c h e d to g i v e h is v e r s io n h i m s e l f b u t h e in i ti a te d .

20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H e s a i d h e w a n te d to g i v e h is v e r s i o n a n d a s I r e a d
w h a t h e s a y s i n h i s a ff i d a v i t it is - i t is a l m o s t li k e h e is s a y i n g I fo r c e d
t h e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r t o a c t u a l ly g iv e m e - to in t e r v ie w m e a n d - a n d
t h e n s o t h a t I c o u ld p u t m y - m y s id e o f t h e s t o r y a n d h e s a y s w h a t h e
w a s g iv e n w a s a s u p e r fi c i a l in t e r v ie w.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
S o I m e n ti o n th a t t o s a y o f c o u r s e m a y b e i t c o u l d b e s a i d t h a t
e v e n if y o u w e r e n o t a s k e d y o u - y o u c o u l d h a v e s a i d l o o k P u b li c
P r o t e c t o r I w a n t t o s a y - to p u t m y s id e o f t h e s t o r y a s w e l l.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Yo u a b s o l u t e ly - a b s o l u t e ly c o r r e c t C h a ir. I f I
m a y j u s t t o u c h o n th a t a s w e l l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d I a m g l a d y o u r a is e d i t b e c a u s e I d i d g e t
a n in v i t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : To - to g o a n d a tt e n d t h e - t h e m e e ti n g w i th t h e
P u b l ic Pr o t e c t o r a n d h e r t e a m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h e n i t - w i t h i n a m a t te r o f d a y s i t c h a n g e d

in t o a s u m m o n s o r a s u b p o e n a . W h a t e v e r it w a s a t t h e ti m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: And my - I got a telephone - phone call - I got
a t e le p h o n e c a l l fr o m I t h i n k i t w a s h e r PA a t t h e t i m e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d I w a s tr a v e l li n g a t t h a t ti m e a n d I to ld h e r
20

lo o k I a m t r a v e ll i n g .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Yo u k n o w I w a s n o t - I w a s n o t i n - i n t h e

S o u th A fr ic a n s p a c e fo r a w h il e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I s ti ll a m n o t …

Page 74 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d I - I t o ld t h e m I a m tr a v e l li n g b u t I w i ll b e
b a c k w i t h i n t h e n e x t w e e k a n d a h a lf t w o w e e k s . I w il l c o m e a n d s e e
you when I am back.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I h a v e g o t o t h e r c o m m i t m e n ts n o w.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d s h e s a i d fi n e . L e t u s k n o w w h e n y o u a r e
b a c k . W e j u s t w a n t t o h a v e a d is c u s s i o n .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : B e f o r e y o u k n o w it t h e - t h e r e p o r t is w r a p p e d
u p . I d id n o t h a v e a c h a n c e t o g iv e m y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M y v e r s io n o f e v e n ts .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I t is t h e fir s t ti m e I m u s t c o m e a n d s p e a k in

fr o n t o f e v e r y b o d y …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d t h e n I a m b e i n g q u e s t io n e d a l o n g th e li n e s
20

o f w h y I w a s - w h a t d o I th i n k o f - o f Mr J o n a s a n d …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d t h e n - a n d w h y h e d id it …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d n o o n e is c o n c e r n e d a b o u t m e n o t g e t ti n g
a f a ir - a f a ir s h o t .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

So I just want to pu t that across.

It is not a

c o m p la i n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : In a n y m a n n e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : B u t I j u s t - I ju s t w a n t i t b e in o n t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I h a v e c o m p li e d t h e w h o l e ti m e .
10

CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m b e in g a s k e d t h e s e s o r t s o f q u e s t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a p p r e c i a t e t h e q u e s ti o n s . I w i ll a n s w e r …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W it h n o is s u e s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : B u t l e t u s b e fa ir o n m e a s w e ll p le a s e .
CHAIRPERSON :

I w il l - I w il l - y o u m i g h t n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h y

M r M o k o e n a w a s p u tt i n g th a t q u e s t i o n to y o u b u t I t h i n k y o u r l a w y e r s
20

w i ll u n d e r s t a n d a n d I u n d e r s t a n d .

Yo u s e e a f t e r th e h e a r i n g o f a ll

e v i d e n c e a t a c e r t a i n s ta g e l a w y e r s w il l s t a n d i n fr o n t o f m e a n d s a y t o
m e I m u s t a c c e p t t h e e v i d e n c e o f c e r t a i n w it n e s s e s .
I m u s t r e je c t t h e e v i d e n c e o f c e r t a i n w i t n e s s e s a b o u t t h i n g s
t h a t h a v e b e e n te s t i fi e d u p o n a b o u t b y v a r i o u s w i tn e s s e s a n d w h e r e
t h e r e m a y b e t w o o r m o r e w h o h a v e d i f fe r e n t v e r s io n s o f w h a t h a p p e n e d

Page 76 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
in r e g a r d to a p a r t ic u l a r m a t te r.

O n e o r m o r e la w y e r s i n c l u d i n g

m e m b e r s o f t h e l e g a l t e a m t h e y m i g h t s a y w h e n t h a t ti m e c o m e s
C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e is a p r o b l e m w i t h a c c e p ti n g M r D u d u z a n e Zu m a ’s
v e r s i o n a n d th a t is b e c a u s e o f A , B , C , D a n d i f th e y a r e g o i n g to s a y
a n y th in g a lo n g t h o s e l i n e s t h e y n e e d t o g iv e y o u a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o
comment on that.
So when he says to you why do you think Mr Jonas would tell
a n u n t r u t h a b o u t w h a t h a p p e n e d . H e is a c t u a lly tr y i n g t o s a y i f t h e r e i s
s o m e t h i n g y o u k n o w t h a t c o u l d b e m o t iv a t e - c o u l d h a v e m o t iv a te d h i m
10

t o s a y y o u w e r e p a r ty to a d i s c u s s io n o r in - t o a m e e ti n g w h e r e h e w a s
m a d e t h is o ffe r. Yo u c o u l d t h e n s a y w e l l I k n o w w h y h e w o u l d s a y t h a t .
T h i s is w h a t w o u l d m o ti v a t e h i m t o s a y t h a t. S o t h a t - t h a t is t h e id e a .
I t is n o t a n y th i n g e l s e .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No and I agree. It is not …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m n o t s o m e h o w b e in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A d v e r s a r ia l a b o u t it . N o t a t a l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W it h a l l d u e r e s p e c t s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: If just - just one point …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A n d I ju s t a n d I r a i s e i t p u r e ly b e c a u s e y o u

k n o w a l o t o f t h e e v id e n c e p a c k …

Page 77 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : R e v o lv e s a r o u n d t h e P u b lic P r o t e c t o r ’s R e p o r t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M a y b e y o u c a n s h e d s o m e li g h t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A n d y o u m e n ti o n e d t h a t M r A j a y G u p t a h a d to

b a s ic a lly f o r c e h i m s e l f t o g o a n d - a n d h a v e t h e d is c u s s i o n . I g a v e my
- m y v e r s i o n o f w h y I a m n o t r e f le c te d i n t h e d o c u m e n ts . C a n y o u j u s t
help me out and - and maybe make me understand why I would not
10

h a v e b e e n s in c e I a m i n t e g r a l t o a l o t o f w h a t is g o in g o n h e r e .
W h y w a s I n o t i n v i t e d a n d y o u k n o w t h e r e is a w h o l e r e p o r t
t h a t c a m e o u t a n d I a m m a s s iv e l y i m p lic a t e d .

Why do you think they

w o u ld m is s e d o u t o n t h a t s t e p ?
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll - w e l l t h a t is - t h a t is t h e P u b li c P r o te c t o r o f

course.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Al r i g h t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o w e - w e d o n o t k n o w. W e c a n n o t p r o v id e t h a t
20

…
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y, t h a n k y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t a n s w e r. W e - w e d o n o t k n o w b u t i t m a y w e l l b e
t h a t e v e n i f th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r w h o w a s r e s p o n s i b l e t h a t w h o i s n o
lo n g e r in o ffic e . I t m a y w e ll b e t h a t i f y o u a s k y o u r - a s k y o u r l a w y e r s
t h e y m ig h t w r i t e to t h e c u r r e n t P u b lic P r o t e c to r w h o h a s a c c e s s t o th e

Page 78 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
r e c o r d s th a t w e r e th e r e a t th e ti m e a n d m a y b e s h e m i g h t b e a b l e t o s a y
I h a v e l o o k e d I c a n s e e w h y h e w a s n o t g iv e n a c h a n c e . O k a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : ( I n d is ti n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you very m uch.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y, b u t I t h i n k c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e q u e s t io n t h a t

M r M o k o e n a p u t is - is th is a s I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e a n d y o u m u s t
ju s t t e l l m e b a s e d o n - o n y o u r a ffi d a v i t . T h e d i s c u s s io n a t t h e m e e ti n g
in v o lv i n g y o u , M r J o n a s a n d M r H l o n g w a n e w a s r e a l ly r e s tr i c t e d t o t h e
10

d is c u s s io n o f t h e s e r u m o u r s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja and as I understand your evidence most of the

ti m e y o u p l a y e d t h e r o le o f a s p e c t a to r o r m e d i a t o r i n t h a t m e e t i n g . Is
that correct?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t s a y i n y o u r a ffi d a v it a n d y o u m u s t t e ll m e
if I m is u n d e r s t a n d th is .

Yo u d o n o t s a y th a t y o u p r o v id e d t h e

b a c k g r o u n d t o th e r u m o u r s . D o y o u ? Is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . T h a t - y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g i s c o r r e c t .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I u n d e r s ta n d c o r r e c t a n d a s I u n d e r s t a n d it y o u s a y
t h a t a t t h e e n d o f t h a t m e e ti n g t h e is s u e a p p e a r e d t o n o t h a v e b e e n
s e t tl e d a s s u c h b u t t o y o u k n o w t h e r e - t h e r e w a s s o m e u n d e r s t a n d i n g .
I f I p u t it in m y o w n w o r d s b e t w e e n t h e p a r t i e s b u t th e r e - n o t t h a t i t
w a s r e s o lv e d c o m p l e te ly. I s t h a t r i g h t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is r ig h t .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON :

A n d m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f w h a t y o u s a y i n y o u - i n

y o u r a ffi d a v i t s u g g e s ts t h a t w h e n t h e p a r ti e s p a r te d - w h e n th e m e e ti n g
e n d e d t h e y - n o b o d y w a s u n h a p p y a b o u t a n y t h i n g . Is th a t r i g h t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To - t o a v e r y la r g e e x t e n t e v e r y b o d y a p p e a r e d t o b e
10

s a ti s f i e d is th a t r i g h t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w w h e n I - w h e n I s e e th a t p i c tu r e e m e r g i n g
fr o m y o u r a ffi d a v i t o f h o w t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d I l o o k a t t h e - a t w h a t
M r J o n a s s a y s . O n h is v e r s io n a s y o u k n o w t h e m e e ti n g i n v o l v e d a - a
G u p t a b r o th e r a n d t h e m e e ti n g e n d e d a s I s e e i t b a d ly - n e g a t iv e ly o n
h is v e r s i o n . Yo u u n d e r s t a n d ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I u n d e r s ta n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N e g a ti v e ly a n d t h e n h e s a y s i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c tly
o n h is w a y t o t h e a i r p o r t h e m a d e a c a ll t o M i n is t e r N e n e a n d I t h in k h e

20

m a d e a l s o a c a ll t o M i n i s te r G o r d h a n a n d - b e c a u s e h e w a n t e d t o t a lk
t o th e m a b o u t w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a t t h e m e e ti n g w h ic h h a d m a d e h i m
u n h a p p y a s I u n d e r s t a n d th e p o s i ti o n a n d h e a r r a n g e d t o m e e t w i th
M i n is t e r G o r d h a n o n th e S u n d a y.
I d o n o t k n o w i f t h e 2 3 r d w a s a Fr i d a y - 2 3 O c to b e r w a s a
Fr id a y o r n o t b u t h e m a d e a n a r r a n g e m e n t .

Page 80 of 176

He was going to the

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
Eastern

Cape

and

he

made

an

arrangement

to

meet

with

M i n is t e r G o r d h a n o n - o n S u n d a y a n d h e m a d e a n a r r a n g e m e n t w i th
M i n is t e r N e n e t h a t t h e y w o u l d m e e t o n S u n d a y a n d h e s a y s th e y d i d
m e e t - h e d i d m e e t w i th M i n is t e r G o r d h a n o n S u n d a y a n d m e n ti o n e d
w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d o r a t le a s t t h e - t h e e s s e n c e .
M i n is t e r G o r d h a n h a s g i v e n e v id e n c e h e r e a n d h a s d e p o s e d
t o s t a t e m e n ts a n d h e is - h e c o n f ir m s th a t h e w a s p h o n e d th a t s a m e
a ft e r n o o n b y - b y M r J o n a s a n d t h a t t h e y m e t o n S u n d a y a n d h e
c o n fir m s t h a t M r J o n a s s a i d h e h a d b e e n m a d e t h is o ff e r t h a t h e w a s
10

t a lk in g a b o u t a t t h e m e e t in g a n d M i n is t e r G o r d h a n s a y s h e c o u ld t e ll
t h a t M i n is te r - M r J o n a s w a s s t il l k in d o f u p s e t o r u n h a p p y a n d
M i n is t e r N e n e a ls o c o n fir m s i n h i s t e s t i m o n y a n d a ff i d a v i t a s I r e c a l l
t h a t h e w a s c a l le d b y M in is t e r - b y Mr J o n a s t h a t s a m e a ft e r n o o n .
They arranged to meet on Sunday but on Sunday they moved
t h a t t o M o n d a y m o r n in g a n d th e y d i d m e e t o n M o n d a y m o r n i n g a t t h e
o ffic e . T h e y w e n t o u t t o t h e b a l c o n y b e c a u s e th e y t h o u g h t w e l l m a y b e
t h e o ff ic e s m i g h t b e b u g g e d a n d t h a t a t th a t m e e ti n g M in is t e r M r J o n a s to ld h i m t h e fa c t - t h e e s s e n c e o f w h a t h a d h a p p e n e d a t t h e
m e e ti n g o n h is v e r s i o n .

20

S o y o u g e t t h e p ic t u r e o f s o m e b o d y w h o c a m e o u t o f t h e
m e e ti n g . B e i n g - b e i n g u n h a p p y, s t a r te d p h o n in g y o u k n o w p e o p l e - t h e
M i n is t e r - M i n is te r G o r d h a n a n d b o t h - b o t h o f t h o s e p e o p l e I t h i n k w e r e
- w e r e c o n n e c t e d w i t h t h e M i n is te r o f F i n a n c e - M i n is tr y o f F i n a n c e a t
s o m e s t a g e o r a n o t h e r a n d u l ti m a t e ly t o l d th e s t o r y a n d t h e y b o t h
c o n fir m e d th a t th a t i s - t h a t is w h a t h a p p e n e d .

Page 81 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
S o - s o t h a t - t h a t is s o m e t h i n g I a m d r a w i n g to y o u r
a tt e n ti o n .

Yo u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o s a y a n y th in g a b o u t i t .

Maybe all

y o u m i g h t s a y is a s f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d w h e n th e m e e t in g e n d e d
t h e r e w a s n o a n i m o s i ty. T h e r e w a s n o u n h a p p i n e s s a n d - a n d t h a t - I
d o n o t k n o w w h a t h e is t a l k i n g a b o u t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is e x a c tl y w h a t I a m s a y i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m s a y i n g t h a t j u s t t o b e c le a r t h a t a f t e r t h e
m e e ti n g e v e r y t h in g w a s c o o l …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A n d a s - a s I h a v e m e n ti o n e d i n - i n m y

a ffi d a v i t I b u m p e d i n t o h i m . T h is i s M r J o n a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Once or twice.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Subsequent to that meeting …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d m y v ie w w a s t h e r e w a s n o h o s t il i ty a t a l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o th a t i s - t h a t is th e w a y I t o o k i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h a t h a p p e n e d b e h i n d th e s c e n e s t h e p h o n e I
- I d o n o t k n o w. I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d o n o t k n o w. Ye s . O f c o u r s e a s fa r a s y o u r r o l e
is c o n c e r n e d h e d o e s s a y a t t h e m e e ti n g y o u w e r e q u ie t m o s t o f t h e

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
ti m e . S o t h a t m a y b e h e m i g h t h a v e b e e n u n h a p p y a b o u t t h e f a c t t h a t
y o u b r o u g h t h i m t o th e - t o th is m e e ti n g o n h is v e r s i o n b u t h e d o e s n o t
s a y y o u s a i d a n y t h i n g a t th e m e e t in g t h a t - t h a t m a d e h i m u n h a p p y, b u t
a ls o h e d o e s s a y t h a t th a t e v e n i n g h e c a l l e d M r H lo n g w a n e a s w e ll a n d
h e s a y s h e e x p r e s s e d t o M r H lo n g w a n e I th i n k h e s a id h e s p o k e t w o
ti m e s t h a t e v e n i n g - a f t e r n o o n a n d e v e n i n g fr o m th e E a s t e r n C a p e .
H e p h o n e d h i m a n d h e e x p r e s s e d h is d i s g u s t a t w h a t h is - h e
- h e s a id M r H l o n g w a n e h a d d o n e .

T h a t - t h a t i s I th o u g h t I w il l j u s t

m e n ti o n t h a t t h e r e is t h a t v e r s i o n .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n y o u r v e r s i o n m e e t in g e n d e d v e r y w e l l. T h e r e w a s
no problem.

O n h is v e r s io n th e m e e ti n g e n d e d i n a v e r y n e g a t iv e

a t m o s p h e r e a n d h e w a s u n h a p p y.

H e s ta r t e d c o n t a c t in g o th e r p e o p le

a n d l a te r o n a c c o r d i n g t o h i m h e p h o n e d M r H lo n g w a n e a n d e x p r e s s e d
h is d i s g u s t .
S o y o u - y o u m i g h t a g a i n s a y th e r e is n o t h in g I c a n s a y. A ll I
k n o w is th a t th e m e e ti n g e n d e d w e ll .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s .

I - I c o n fi r m a g a i n a n d - a n d I s ti c k to

what I said …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : E a r li e r o n C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d y o u k n o w y o u a l s o m e n ti o n e d t h a t h e h a d
c a l l e d m e a f te r w a r d s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : To b a s i c a ll y g iv e m e a m o u t h f u l a s ( i n d i s t i n c t) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I s h o u ld n o t c o n d u c t m y s e l f i n th a t w a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Yo u n o w th e m e e t - t h e w a y t h e m e e ti n g

happened it should not have - whatever - whatever it is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: That he said that I said …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

And that phone call never came through.

So

t h e p o i n t I a m tr y i n g t o m a k e is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

The

c o m m u n ic a ti o n

th a t

happened

S o m e o f it m a y h a v e h a p p e n e d .

Some of it

t e l e p h o n ic a l ly I - I c a n n o t c o m m e n t o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

may not have happened …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

B u t - a s - a s I s a i d t o y o u e v e r y th i n g a t t h a t

p o i n t t h e m e e t in g , t h e c o n t e n t s o f t h e m e e t in g w e n t t h e w a y t h e y d id .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h e t h e r i s s u e s w e r e r e s o lv e d o r n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is a d i ffe r e n t s t o r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 84 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : B u t w h e n w e a ll e m e r g e d fr o m t h a t r o o m …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: It was all cool.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e n ju s t o n e la s t q u e s t io n fr o m m y s i d e a n d I I d o n o t k n o w h o w f a r M r M o k o e n a s ti ll h a s q u e s ti o n s f o r y o u . H e s a i d
t h a t w h e n y o u m e t a t th e H y a t t H o te l y o u m a d e a r e m a r k t o t h e - to t h e
e ffe c t t h a t I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e s a i d y o u s a i d y o u o l d m a n b u t
b a s ic a lly y o u r f a t h e r l ik e d h i m . I d i d n o t s e e y o u - y o u d e n y in g t h a t t h a t a l le g a ti o n in t h e a ffi d a v it . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I d id n o t i n c l u d e i t i n m y a ff id a v i t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : As I s a i d th e r e i s a l o t o f S M S ’ p h o n e c a lls .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: That were not included.
CHAIRPERSON : But …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e r e i s ( i n d is ti n c t) i n f o r m a ti o n a s w e ll . I d i d
n o t in c l u d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is a r e m a r k t h a t y o u m a d e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o t h a t is n o t a r e m a r k t h a t I m a d e .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u d i d n o t m a k e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M o s t d e f i n i t e ly n o t s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . I f y o u m a y t u r n t o F il e n u m b e r A . I

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
a m n o t s u r e w h ic h f il e y o u a r e h a v i n g w it h y o u . P a g e 11 .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Page?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 11 - 1 - 1 .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you. Got it.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n - i n r e l a ti o n to M r J o n a s I a m p r o p o s i n g t o r e s tr ic t
y o u t o fi v e m i n u t e s n o w.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To w r a p u p . Is th a t r i g h t ? ( I n t e r v e n e s ) .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I s i t th e fi v e m in u t e s o f J u d g e s o r o f th e
10

la w y e r s .
CHAIRPERSON : Of the lawyers.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

P a g e 11 p a r a g r a p h 3 1 .

I t s i m p ly to

c o n te x t u a l is e th e q u e s t io n t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o p u t b u t t h e C h a ir h a s
a lr e a d y d o n e t h a t .

I t is n o t a s c o o l a s y o u s a y Mr Z u m a b e c a u s e t o

M r J o n a s t h e m e e ti n g d i d n o t e n d a s c o o l a s y o u s a y - s u g g e s t .
says on paragraph 31:
“I was very shaken by what happened at the
m e e ti n g .

D u e t o th e s e n s it iv e a n d t h r e a t e n i n g

n a t u r e o f w h a t h a p p e n - h a d t r a n s p ir e d a t t h is
20

m e e ti n g a n d b e c a u s e o f th e u n c e r ta i n t y o f t h e
events that were playing themselves out on a
n a t io n a l b a s is .

I d e c i d e d I w o u l d i n i ti a ll y d is c u s s

w h a t h a d o c c u r r e d w i t h th e p e o p le I f e l t I c o u ld
tr u s t .

L a te r

that

day

I

c o n ta c t e d

M i n is t e r N h l a n h l a N e n e a n d a d v i s e d h i m t h a t I h a d

Page 86 of 176

He

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
a - I h a d s o m e th i n g s e r i o u s t o te ll h i m . H e w a s o n
h is w a y to K w a Z u l u - N a ta l .
on

his

return

on

the

So we agreed to meet

20th

-

on-

on

Sunday

2 5 O c to b e r 2 0 1 5 .”
Paragraph 32:
“Upon

la n d i n g

in

Port

E liz a b e t h

I

spoke

t e l e p h o n ic a l ly to Mr H l o n g w a n e a n d e x p r e s s e d m y
d is g u s t a b o u t w h a t h a d tr a n s p ir e d p a r t i c u l a r ly i n
r e s p e c t o f t h e m a n n e r i n w h ic h h e h a d d e li b e r a t e l y
10

m is le d m e .

I t o l d h i m h e s h o u l d n e v e r a g a in d o

what he had done to me or to any other person. He
s u g g e s t e d w e s h o u ld h a v e a s m e e ti n g t o d is c u s s
w h a t I h a v e r a is e d .”
A n d p a r a g r a p h 3 2 t a k e s c a r e o f t h e m e e ti n g t h a t w a s n o
s c h e d u l e d b e tw e e n M r N e n e a n d M r J o n a s a n d s o th a t i s h is v e r s i o n .
Yo u h a v e a lr e a d y a n s w e r e d t o y o u . Ev e r y t h i n g w a s c o o l .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w t h e o t h e r p o i n t t h a t I w a n t e d
t o c l a r i f y w i th y o u .
20

I m e a n y o u w e r e s a y in g t h a t y o u w e r e n o t - n o t

g iv e n a n o p p o r tu n i t y b y th e P u b lic P r o te c t o r t o p l a c e y o u r v e r s i o n y o u
k n o w t o h e r a n d y o u k n o w t h a t m a y b e y o u w e r e t r e a te d u n f a i r ly. O n e
w o u ld n o t b e a b le t o c o m m e n t o n t h a t b u t y o u h a d o t h e r a v e n u e s y o u
k n o w t h a t y o u c o u l d h a v e a c tu a l ly e x p l o r e d a t t h e t i m e .
I m e a n h e r e is t h e p e r s o n a c c o r d i n g t o y o u s p r e a d in g li e s
a b o u t. T h e s e a r e s e r i o u s a ll e g a t io n s t h a t w e r e m a d e a g a in s t y o u . D o -

Page 87 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
do you agree?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M o s t d e f i n i t e ly, y e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : D e fi n i t e l y, y e s . D i d y o u o p e n a n y c a s e
a g a in s t M r J o n a s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I w il l b e e x p l o r i n g t h e a v e n u e s .

These

a v e n u e s y o u a r e ta lk in g a b o u t.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o r r y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Th e s e a r e th e a v e n u e s t h a t y o u a r e t a l k i n g

a b o u t.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , b u t I a m s a y i n g t h a t n o w th a t y o u

a r e te s t i fy i n g I m e a n fr o m t h a t t i m e 2 3 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 t o d a t e d i d y o u
o p e n a n y c r i m i n a l c h a r g e a g a in s t h i m ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o . I d id n o t s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

Did you bring any action for

d e f a m a ti o n a g a i n s t h i m ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o s ir. I d i d n o t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

D id y o u la y a c o m p l a i n t a g a i n s t

h i m a t th e A N C a b o u t th e s e l i e s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

I t w a s n o n e o f t h e A N C ’s b u s in e s s .

It was a

p e r s o n a l m a t t e r s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y. S o t h a t - t h e s h o r t a n s w e r y o u d i d
n o t d o i t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : As f a r a s I a m c o n c e r n e d n e i t h e r d i d h e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y. N o w …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. I th i n k s o m e b o d y h a s c o m p l e t e ly s w it c h e d

Page 88 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
o ff t h e a ir c o n d i ti o n e r. I t f e e ls a l i tt l e h o t . M a y b e i t s h o u l d b e o n b u t
not too high.

S o m a y b e s o m e b o d y c o u ld d o t h e - t a k e c a r e o f th a t .

Thank you.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h e l a s t q u e s t i o n o n th is a s p e c t o f

Mr Jonas.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M r M o k o e n a .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

No.

I t h o u g h t t h a t t h e r e i s s o m e t h in g

t h a t m a y b e my le a r n e d c o ll e a g u e s w a n t e d t o r a is e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e k n o w a s a m a tt e r o f f a c t a n d y o u

h a v e a ls o d e a l t w i t h i t I t h i n k w h e n w e s t a r te d w it h y o u r q u e s t io n i n g .
T h a t t w o m o n t h s a f t e r t h a t m e e ti n g y o u h a v e a l r e a d y s a i d y o u n o w
a g r e e d w i th m e t h a t M r N e n e w a s r e m o v e d a n d h e w a s r e p l a c e d b y
M r Va n R o o y e n . Wa s th is s i m p ly a c o in c i d e n c e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I believe so.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a n k y o u . M r C h a ir I a m m o v i n g n o w t o
Mr Dukwana.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o r r y. S o r r y.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M a y I p l e a s e h a v e a c o m f o r t p r a i s e s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I just need to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. C o m f o r t b r e a k ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : C o m f o r t b r e a k p l e a s e C h a ir.

Page 89 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y. N o th a t i s f in e .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 1 0 m i n u t e s w i ll b e f in e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h r e e m i n u te s m a x i m u m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h r e e m i n u t e s . O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C h a i r i t m a y b e d i ff ic u l t t o c o m p u t e th r e e
m i n u t e s . M a y b e 1 0 m in u t e s m ig h t b e b e t t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . J u s t to b e o n t h e s a fe s id e . L e t u s 1 0 m i n u t e s .
I t is n o w 2 5 t o o n e . S o w e s a y w e c o m e b a c k a t q u a r te r t o o n e .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
REGISTRAR: All rise.
I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a i d w e a r e m o v i n g t o s o m e th in g e ls e n o w ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
CHAIRPERSON :

W e a r e m o v in g . . . [i n te r v e n e s ] .

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Yo u k n o w r e s p e c ti n g t h e ti m e l i m i ta t io n s

I’ m m o v in g to M r D u k w a n a .
CHAIRPERSON :
20

N o t h a t’s fi n e I j u s t m e n ti o n o n e t h in g M r Zu m a a n d

y o u m i g h t h a v e n o c o m m e n t a b o u t i t b u t I m e n ti o n i t b e c a u s e i t i s i n m y
m i n d s o it ’s t h e tr a n s p a r e n c y I w a s ta lk in g a b o u t e a r l i e r. O n Mr J o n a s ’
v e r s i o n a t t h i s m e e t i n g , i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y h e g e ts t o l d t h a t M r N e n e is
g o i n g t o b e r e m o v e d a s M i n is te r o f F i n a n c e .
w h e t h e r h e g e ts t o l d th a t e x p r e s s ly o r

Now I can’t remember

i t’s j u s t i m p l i e d b e c a u s e

a c c o r d i n g , o n h is v e r s i o n , h e is b e i n g o ff e r e d th e p o s i ti o n o f M i n is t e r o f

Page 90 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
Fi n a n c e a n d if I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y h e s a y s t h a t th e G u p ta b r o t h e r w h o w a s
t h e r e t o l d h i m – I h o p e I ’ m n o t m i s r e p r e s e n t in g w h a t h e s a i d , to l d h i m
t h a t i f h e n e e d e d a d v is o r s h e w o u l d b e g iv e n a d v i s o r – t h e y w o u l d g iv e
h i m a d v is o r s a n d th a t ’s O c t o b e r 2 0 1 5 , O c t o b e r 2 3 , a n d a b o u t s ix o r s o
w e e k s l a te r 9 D e c e m b e r M r N e n e g e ts r e m o v e d a s M in is t e r o f F in a n c e
a n d o f c o u r s e t h e p e r s o n w h o g e ts a p p o in t e d is M r D e s v a n R o o y e n a n d
in t e r m s o f t h e e v id e n c e t h a t I’v e h e a r d h e r e h e c o m e s w i th tw o
p e r s o n s – a d v is o r s w h o a r e a l l e g e d to h a v e l in k s w i t h t h e G u p t a f a m i ly.
S o I’ m ju s t m e n ti o n i n g , y o u m i g h t n o t b e a b l e t o s a y a n y t h i n g I’ m j u s t
10

m e n ti o n i n g s o m e th i n g t h a t c o m e s t o m y mi n d a s I li s t e n t o th e
evidence.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a n k y o u fo r t h a t C h a ir.

O k a y th a n k y o u .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Mr Z u m a t h e l a s t q u e s ti o n I a s k e d w h e n

I d e a l t w it h t h e is s u e s o f Mr J o n a s w h e t h e r o r n o t d i d l a y a c r i m i n a l
c h a r g e i t w a s a l s o p u t to M r J o n a s a s t o w h y d i d n ’ t h e la y c h a r g e s
r ig h t , I ’ m ju s t p u tt i n g t h a t t o y o u .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Okay I agree thank you.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
20

N o w l e t’s m o v e o n t o Mr D u k w a n a , Mr

H l o n g w a n e w h e n h e w a s i n t e r v ie w e d b y t h e P P h e t o l d t h e P P t h a t h e
u s e d t o f r e q u e n t o r v i s i t w i t h h i m to t h e G u p ta r e s id e n c e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t ’s t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w h e n y o u s a y P P ?

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
CHAIRPERSON :

T h e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r y e s .

O k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , d o y o u c o n f ir m w h a t h e s a y s th a t ,

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
y o u k n o w y o u g u y s u s e d to fr e q u e n t t h e G u p t a h o u s e y o u u s e d t o v is i t ,
y o u a ls o b e i n g i n th e c o m p a n y o f th e G u p t a b r o t h e r s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

A n d d o y o u k n o w w h e th e r M r

M a g a s h u le , y o u k n o w, d id a l s o v is i t t h e G u p ta r e s id e n c e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I’ m n o t s u r e I ’v e n e v e r m e t h i m t h e r e .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

T h e r e w a s n o o c c a s io n w h e r e y o u m e t

M r M a g a s h u l e a t t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
10

N o t a t t h e G u p ta r e s id e n c e .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

No I do not know Mr Dukwana.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

And do you know Mr Dukwana?

Yo u ’v e n e v e r m e t h i m ?

I m a y h a v e in p a s s i n g b u t i n t h i s r e l a ti o n n o I

h a v e n o t , I d o n o t r e c a ll m e e ti n g h i m .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , n o w m a y I r e f e r y o u t o t h e v e r y

s m a ll i n c o m p a r is o n t o t h e o th e r fi l e s i t ’s fi le n u m b e r C – L L C C h a ir a n d
I w il l t r y to b e a s q u ic k a s I c a n a n d i f y o u m a y r e f e r to … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u s e e M r M o k o e n a b e f o r e t h e t e a b r e a k I d i d h a v e

a fi le m a r k e d C b u t c e r ta i n c h a n g e s h a p p e n e d d u r i n g t h e t e a b r e a k a n d
20

t h e fi l e t h a t w a s m a r k e d C n o l o n g e r h a s C .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I th i n k t h a t t h e y w e r e tr y i n g to a s s is t

t h e C h a i r w i t h t h o s e f il e s th a t y o u a r e n o t a b l e to n a v i g a t e t h r o u g h b u t
n o w … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON :

I t ’s s u p p o s e d to r e m a in m a r k e d C .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

F o r e a s e o f r e f e r e n c e i n f u tu r e C h a ir, if

Page 92 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
h e y m a r k it L L C .
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

A n d w e ’l l b e d e a li n g w it h th e d o c u m e n ts

fr o m f o l d e r n u m b e r tw o a n d I th in k th a t is t h e fir s t f o l d e r a n d I w a s
r e fe r r i n g M r Zu m a t o p a g e 1 8 o f t h a t d o c u m e n t . W i t h p a r tic u la r
r e fe r e n c e t o p a r a g r a p h 5 2 a n d s i m p ly t o s a v e ti m e M r Z u m a I w il l p u t to
y o u w h a t M r D u k w a n a t o l d th e C h a i r w h e n h e t e s ti f ie d th e r e c o n t a i n e d
fr o m p a r a g r a p h 9 5 2 t o 5 9 , le t m e r e a d t h e m s o t h a t y o u c a n r e a c t t o
t h e m a t o n c e a n d t e e n I c a n p o s e q u e s ti o n s s o t h a t w e c a n b e q u i c k l y
10

h e s a id t h a t ,
“ I w a s u s h e r e d in t o a r o o m w h i ls t To n y a n d M a g a s h u le w e n t t o
a d i ffe r e n t r o o m . A f t e r a w h i le t h e y j o i n e d m e a n d
o th e r p e o p l e a n d th e n o t a b l e w a s M r

accompanied

Duduzane Zuma.

by

To n y i n

t h e p r e s e n c e o f M a g a s h u l e a s k e d m e t o s i g n a d o c u m e n t p u r p o r t e d ly
prepared by me on the

le t t e r h e a d o f m y o ff ic e a d d r e s s e d t o L u l a n i

Management

S e r v ic e s a p p o in t in g th e m t o r u n a w h o l e p r o je c t I

presented

in t h e c a b i n e t m e e t in g o n t h e 1 0 k e y b a s e s , I r e f u s e d

to

append my signature”,
I f I m a y p a u s e Mr Z u m a h e s a y s t h a t w h e n a ll t h e s e t h i n g s

20

w e r e h a p p e n i n g t h e w e r e h a p p e n i n g w i th y o u b e i n g p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f
t h a t m e e ti n g a n d in y o u r p r e s e n c e a n d h e s a y s t h a t,
“ I n t h e s a id l e t t e r m y s u r n a m e w a s w r i t te n D u k w a n a , D u k o a n a
a n y M a g a s h u l e k n e w t h a t is h o w m y s u r n a m e i s w r i t te n
because I always preferred and wrote it as Dukwana, and he
s a y s D u k o a n a i s a S e s o t h o v e r s io n o f m y o t h e r w is e X h o s a

Page 93 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
surname.

I n a n e ff o r t t o tr y t o p e r s u a d e m e to a p p e n d m y

s ig n a tu r e t o t h e s a i d le t t e r To n y i n ti m a t e d t o m e t h a t b o t h
M a g a s h u le a n d D u d u z a n e Z u m a w e r e r e c ip ie n ts o f m o n ie s in
c a s h fr o m a m i n i n g p r o je c t f r o m J a k a ls fo n te in M i n e .

Neither

M a g a s h u le n o r D u d u z a n e Z u m a d i s p u t e d To n y ’s c l a i m t h e y
b o t h n o d d e d th e ir h e a d s i n a g r e e m e n t .

F u r th e r To n y t o l d m e

t h a t M a g a s h u le w o u ld n o t b e n e fi t f r o m t h e p r o j e c t b e c a u s e i t
b e l o n g e d to m e a n d h i m ( To n y ) .

M a g a s h u l e d i d n o t d is p u te

To n y fr o m t h is p r o j e c t , To n y t o l d m e t h a t I w o u l d r e c e i v e a
m o n th ly p a y m e n t o f R 2 m i ll io n , I w a s t o l d b y To n y th a t i f I

10

a p p e n d m y s ig n a tu r e a t th e ti m e a n in s t a n t p a y m e n t o f
R 2 m i ll i o n w o u ld b e g iv e n t o m e . I n t h is r e g a r d a g e n tl e m a n o f
I n d ia n d e c e n t w a s c a ll e d b y To n y a n d To n y w h is p e r e d
words in the language unknown to me. The

something,

g e n tl e m a n l e f t th e

r o o m a n d c a m e b a c k w i th a b l a c k p i l o t

bag,

fr e q u e n t ly u s e d b y la w y e r s , I d is t a n c e d

m y s e l f fr o m t h a t M r Zu m a

a n d 5 7 it s a y s , I s t il l p e r s is t e d t h a t

I c a n n o t s ig n t h e d o c u m e n t

t o w h i c h To n y s a id t h a t h e h a d

th is

same

s p o k e n to M a g a s h u le th a t u p o n my

s ig n a tu r e t h e p r o v is i o n a l c a b i n e t w i ll g r a t if y t h e a p p o i n t m e n t .
20

bags

To n y

t h e n o p e n e d th e p i lo t b a g w h ic h w a s fu ll o f R 2 0 0 S o u t h A fr i c a n b a n k
notes

s t a ti n g th a t t h e m o n e y w a s m i n e if I s i g n e d th e d o c u m e n t.

I

s t il l r e f u s e d t o s i g n , I w e n t t o t h e e x t e n t o f s u g g e s t i n g t h a t i t
b e p r u d e n t th a t t h e l e t t e r I w a s b e in g c o m p e ll e d t o s i g n
s h o u l d b e r e f e r r e d t o M r Ve n t e r, Pr o v i n c ia l L e g a l A d v is o r in
t h e o ffic e o f th e Pr e m i e r t o g iv e a l e g a l o p i n i o n a b o u t t h e

Page 94 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
le g a l it y

of

the

c o n te m p l a te d

a p p o i n t m e n ts .

A fter

that

s u g g e s t io n M a g a s h u le m u m b l e s s o m e th in g t o To n y t o w h ic h
To n y a s k e d t h a t I g iv e h i m b a c k t h e le t t e r, I h a d i n t e n d e d to
k e e p t h e l e t t e r to r e f e r i t to M r Ve n t e r ” ,
A n d th a t i s w h a t Mr D u k w a n a i n fo r m e d t h e C h a ir a n d w h a t is
y o u r c o m m e n t o n t h e s e is s u e s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

I ’ m n o t s u r e w h a t Mr D u k w a n a i s t a l k i n g a b o u t

t h a t ’s m y c o m m e n t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
10

Ye s , w h e n y o u s a y y o u a r e n o t s u r e ,

y o u a r e s a y in g e i t h e r y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h a t h e i s t a lk i n g a b o u t o r
w h e t h e r y o u d o n ’ t a g r e e w i t h w h a t is s ta t e d i n t h o s e p a r a g r a p h s o r th a t
a l l o f t h e th in g s th a t h e is s a y i n g in t h a t s t a te m e n t d id n o t h a p p e n a t
a l l?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

I d o n o t a g r e e w i t h e a c h a n d e v e r y p a r t o f th e

s t a te m e n t , p a r a g r a p h b y p a r a g r a p h .

I d o n o t a g r e e th a t t h is m e e t i n g

t o o k p la c e , I d o n o t a g r e e t h a t h i s p la c i n g a l l t h e s e w o n d e r f u l p e o p le in
t h is m e e ti n g , s o in e n tir e ty I c o m p l e te ly r e f u te .
CHAIRPERSON :

W e l l M r Z u m a y o u m ig h t w is h to ju s t r e c o n s i d e r

w h e t h e r th a t ’s t h e a n s w e r – w h e t h e r th a t a n s w e r r e f l e c ts w h a t y o u
20

in t e n d s a y in g I h e a r d y o u e a r l ie r o n s a y i n g y o u – I t h i n k I h e a r d y o u
s a y in g y o u d id n o t a t t e n d a n y m e e t in g i n v o lv i n g M r D u k w a n a , d i d I
u n d e r s t a n d t h a t c o r r e c t ly ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t s ir.

Ye s n o w i f h e s a y s y o u w e r e p r e s e n t a t t h a t m e e t i n g

– a t th is m e e t i n g a n d y o u s a y y o u w e r e n o t p r e s e n t , t h e n y o u w o u l d n o t

Page 95 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
k n o w w h e t h e r th is m e e ti n g m a y h a v e t a k e n p l a c e b u t h e is ju s t
m is t a k e n a b o u t y o u h a v i n g b e e n p r e s e n t a n d i f th a t m e e ti n g d i d t a k e
p l a c e , th o s e t h i n g s m i g h t h a v e h a p p e n e d , y o u w e r e n o t t h e r e y o u d o n ’ t
k n o w.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

I a p p r e c i a te th e c l a r it y a n d I t a k e y o u r v i e w

a n d I a g r e e w it h y o u r v ie w.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , y e s s o y o u r p o s i ti o n i s t h a t y o u w e r e n o t

present at such a meeting?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
10

CHAIRPERSON:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

A n d a r e y o u d e fi n i t e a b o u t t h a t o r is t h e r e s o m e

d o u b t?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

Yo u a r e d e f in i te a b o u t t h a t ?

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

No, no definite.

Ye s s ir

O k a y.

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Thank you.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

N o w p ig g y b a c k i n g o n w h a t t h e C h a i r

h a v e , y o u k n o w, c a n v a s s e d w i th y o u , i f I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e i s
t h a t , w h e n Mr J o n a s te s ti fi e d a b o u t t h e o ff e r s w h ic h w e r e m a d e i n y o u r
20

p r e s e n c e c l e a r ly y o u r a n s w e r is t h a t h e i s ly in g , th a t n e v e r h a p p e n e d
am I correct?
MR

DUDUZANE

ZU M A :

I

gave

my

v i e w,

I

gave

my

version…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON :

Well I don’t know if he put that way…[intervenes].

M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

J a t h a t ’s n o t t h e w a y I p u t i t , I g a v e m y v i e w

Page 96 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
and I gave my version.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ja Mr – General Booys en said when he gave

e v i d e n c e a b o u t M r D u d u z a n e h e s a i d h e is v e r y r e s p e c t f u l , I th i n k to
a d u lt p e o p l e s o h e mi g h t h a v e n o t h a v e p u t i t t h a t w a y, t h a t h e ’s l y i n g
b u t h e h a s p u t h is v e r s i o n , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t t h a n k y o u C h a i r.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

M r C h a ir t h e v e r s io n is e i t h e r y o u a r e

c o r r e c t o r Mr J o n a s i s c o r r e c t .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
10

T h a t ’s r i g h t s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , i t c a n n e v e r b e b o th o f t h e m t h a t

a r e c o r r e c t b e c a u s e y o u a r e s a y i n g th a t it d i d n o t h a p p e n a n d h e s a id
t h a t i t d i d h a p p e n , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , Mr D u k w a n a a ls o to ld t h e C h a ir

a b o u t t h e o ff e r s a n d h e s a y s t h a t y o u w e r e p r e s e n t th e r e w a s n o
u n c e r t a in ty a b o u t h i m o r a b o u t y o u r p r e s e n c e a t t h a t m e e t in g a n d y o u
a r e a ls o s a y i n g t h a t h e is in c o r r e c t, t h a t d i d n o t h a p p e n ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :
20

T h a t ’s w h a t I’ m s a y i n g , t h a t’s c o r r e c t .

W h a t o f c o u r s e M r M o k o e n a , w a s n o t d o n e , if I r e c a l l

c o r r e c t ly w h e n M r D u k w a n a g a v e h is e v i d e n c e is t h a t h i s e v i d e n c e th a t
M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a w a s p r e s e n t a t t h a t m e e ti n g m a y n o t h a v e b e e n
t e s te d b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s n o t h i n g t o s u g g e s t t h a t Mr D u d u z a n e Zu m a ’s
v e r s i o n w o u ld b e d i ff e r e n t , th a t h e d i d a t t e n d s u c h a m e e ti n g . S o I ’ m
ju s t m e n ti o n i n g t h a t m a y b e w e d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t Mr D u k w a n a w o u l d s a y
w h e n h e ’s b e i n g t o l d M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a s a y s h e w a s n o t p r e s e n t

Page 97 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
t h e r e , a r e y o u s u r e h e w a s th e r e .

S o I ju s t m e n ti o n , t h a t ’s m y

r e c o l l e c ti o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

W e l l i t w a s p u t to h i m C h a ir a n d a t le a s t

m i n e i t ’s n o t o n ly p r e m i s e d o n t h a t e v e n t b u t w h e n r e a d i n g t h o s e
d o c u m e n ts a g a i n i t w a s c l e a r ly … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON :

H e w a s c l e a r.

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

C le a r a n d t h e r e w a s n o u n c e r t a in ty o n h is

s id e .
CHAIRPERSON :
10

Ja.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

A n d s i m p l y t h e p o i n t th a t I w a s m a k i n g

w a s t h a t , n o w w e a r e h a v in g tw o p e o p l e , Mr J o n a s a n d Mr D u k w a n a
w h o a r e t a lk i n g a b o u t t h e o ff e r s th a t h a p p e n e d i n y o u r p r e s e n c e a t t h e
G u p t a r e s i d e n c e a n d b o t h o f th e m , a c c o r d i n g to y o u , t h e y a r e s i m p ly
f a b r ic a ti n g t h i s e v i d e n c e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

I ’ m b e i n g c o n v e n i e n t ly p l a c e d a t a s u p p o s e d

crime scene yes.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , a n d I’ m s u r e t h a t n o n e – m y s e l f

a n d y o u w o u ld n o t b e a b l e t o p r o ff e r a n y a n s w e r s a s t o w h y w o u l d th e y
r e a l ly fa b r ic a t e th is e v id e n c e a g a i n s t y o u , w e d o n ’ t k n o w ?
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

J a d e fi n it e ly w e d o n ’ t k n o w.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

O k a y, n o w y o u h a v e p r o v i d e d w i t h

o b v i o u s l y th e s t a te m e n t o f Mr D u k w a n a to t h e e x t e n t t h a t i t i m p li c a t e d
y o u i n t e r m s o f R u l e 3 . 3 a m I c o r r e c t?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s h e d i d m e n t io n m e .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , a n d h e d i d a ls o h a v e t h e

Page 98 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
o p p o r t u n i ty to r e a d i t a n d a ls o t o d e c i d e w h e t h e r o r n o t, y o u k n o w, t o
c h a l le n g e t h a t v e r s io n o r n o t , y o u d i d n o t , y o u k n o w s u b m i t a n y v e r s io n
c o n tr a d ic ti n g h i m n o r d i d y o u a p p ly in t e r m s o f R u l e 3 . 4 a t w h ic h t h a t
c h a l le n g e s h is v e r s i o n a n d a l s o t o c r o s s - e x a m i n e h i m a m I c o r r e c t?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

R e a d i n g h i s v e r s i o n o f e v e n ts I f e lt t h a t a t t h e

ti m e a n d o b v i o u s l y t h r o u g h c o n s u l t a t i o n t h a t I w a s m e n t io n e d a n d I w a s
n o t i m p l ic a te d i n a n y a ll e g a ti o n s th a t m a y h a v e c o m e t o th e fo r e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , b u t i f a p e r s o n s a y s t h a t t h e r e

w e r e th o s e , I m e a n , u n l a w f u l o r i ll e g a l o ff e r s a t l e a s t o n t h e v e r s i o n o f
10

M r D u k w a n a , t h a t w e r e m a d e a n d h e w a s m a d e t o s i g n c e r ta i n
d o c u m e n ts w h e n i n f a c t h e c o u l d n o t h a v e t h e a u th o r i ty t o d o s o h e w a s
m a d e to s ig n t h o s e t h in g s b y in d i v i d u a ls w h o w e r e n o t e v e n o ff ic i a ls o f
t h e g o v e r n m e n t , s u r e ly y o u k n o w, i n t h a t m e e ti n g i t w a s n o t a m e e ti n g
w h e r e o n e d o e s n o t a c t u a ll y a t tr i b u te a n y i ll e g a li ty o n i t, is n ’ t i t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A n d y o u ’r e p r e s e n t , t h a t’s w h y I’ m

s a y in g t h a t , th a t ’s w h y y o u ’r e g i v e n a R u l e 3 . 3 n o t ic e .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

C o r r e c t a n d a s I s a i d I w a s – I d i d n ’ t b e li e v e , I

s t il l d o n ’ t b e l i e v e I w a s i m p li c a t e d I b e l ie v e I w a s m e n t i o n e d , th e
20

m e e ti n g , a s I ’v e s a i d I’v e g o t n o r e c o ll e c ti o n o f it , i t d id n o t h a p p e n .
S o th a t ’s th e a n g le I to o k .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , n o w le t ’s m o v e – C h a ir I w a n t t o

move to Mr Sundaram…[intervenes].
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s b e f o r e y o u d o s o a g a i n , M r Z u m a y o u m i g h t h a v e

n o c o m m e n t o r a n y t h in g to s a y a b o u t th is b u t a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t To n y

Page 99 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
G u p t a i s Mr R a j e s h G u p t a , is th a t r i g h t?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t s ir.

Ye s , t h a t is t h e s a m e p e r s o n th a t , o n y o u r e v id e n c e ,

p e e p e d in a t t h e m e e t in g a t t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e w h e r e y o u , M r
H l o n g w a n e a n d M r J o n a s w e r e h a v i n g a m e e t in g a n d w a n t e d t o c h e c k if
y o u w e r e a v a il a b l e fo r a m e e ti n g t h e f o l l o w in g d a y o r s o m e t h i n g .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

Ye s , n o w t h e r e is a lo t o f is s u e a s t o – i f M r J o n a s ’

v e r s i o n i s c o r r e c t a n d a n o ff e r w a s m a d e t o h i m s u c h a s t h e o n e h e h a s
10

d e s c r ib e d a t t h a t m e e ti n g , w h o o f t h e b r o t h e r s m a d e t h e o ffe r a n d , a t
le a s t o n y o u r v e r s i o n a n d M r H l o n g w a n e ’s v e r s io n t h e o n l y G u p t a
b r o t h e r t h a t w a s a r o u n d i n t h e r e s id e n c e w a s M r R a je s h G u p t a .
A s s u m in g t h a t m a y b e h e i s t h e o n e t h a t m a d e t h e o ffe r if a n o ffe r w a s
m a d e i t w o u ld b e – i t ’s in t e r e s ti n g th a t , a c c o r d i n g to M r D u k w a n a th is is
n o w a n o th e r m e e t in g a n d M r D u k w a n a s a y s , t h is s a m e p e r s o n , y o u
k n o w, o ff e r e d h i m m o n e y i n a b r i e f c a s e . W h e n h e w a s g iv in g e v id e n c e
h e r e a b r i e fc a s e w a s s h o w n t o i n d ic a te w h a t ty p e o f b r i e fc a s e h e w a s
t a lk in g a b o u t , l a w y e r ’s

b r i e fc a s e t h a t Mr D u k w a n a d is a s s o c i a te s

h i m s e l f fr o m a n d h e s a i d th e b a g – t h e b r i e fc a s e w a s fu ll o f R 2 0 0
20

n o t e s , y o u k n o w t h a t w a s o ffe r e d to h i m .

S o th e r e a r e ju s t t h o s e

f e a t u r e s t h a t h a p p e n e d , b u t a g a i n if y o u w e r e n o t a t th e m e e ti n g a n d
t h e v e r s i o n a b o u t y o u r m e e ti n g a t t h e G u p ta r e s i d e n c e w it h M r J o n a s
w a s d i ffe r e n t , y o u m ig h t h a v e n o t h i n g t o d o b u t i t’s j u s t i n t e r e s t in g th a t
t h e r e is t h is m e e t in g h a p p e n i n g a n d a p p a r e n t ly M r R a j e s h G u p t a i s a t
t h e v e n u e a t b o th – o n b o t h o c c a s io n s .

Page 100 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

I s e e y o u r p o i n t t h e n , o n e w o u ld f in d it e v e n

m o r e i n t e r e s t in g t h a t I ’ m a l w a y s p l a c e d i n t h e m i d d l e o f t h e s e
d is c u s s io n s a n d I h a p p e n t o b e a c o u c h o r a l a m p s h a d e i n t h e
m e e ti n g s . I d i d n ’ t s e e a n y t h i n g , I d o n ’ t s a y a n y t h in g s o I fi n d t h a t m o r e
in t e r e s ti n g t h a n t h e p o i n t y o u ’r e m a k i n g b u t I t a k e y o u r p o i n t C h a i r
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s t h a n k y o u , Mr M o k o e n a .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

C h a ir I’ m t o l d t h a t w e h a v e n o w

a p p r o a c h e d th e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON :
10

O h o k a y w e ’ ll ta k e th e l u n c h a d jo u r n m e n t n o w, t h e

ti m e is fi v e p a s t o n e , w e w il l r e s u m e a t fiv e p a s t tw o , w e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR:

A l l r is e .

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k M r Z u m a t h e p a r t th a t I d id n o t in c l u d e i n t h e
o b s e r v a t i o n I w a s m a k i n g a b o u t w h i c h I s a i d y o u m ig h t n o t h a v e m u c h
t o s a y w a s t h a t a s I u n d e r s ta n d M r D u k w a n a ’s e v i d e n c e i n c lu d in g w h a t
h e s a i d i n h i s s t a t e m e n t w a s a l s o th a t a t t h a t m e e ti n g w h ic h h e s a y s
y o u a t t e n d e d w h ic h y o u s a y y o u d i d n o t a t t e n d i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly. H e
a ls o s a y s t h a t w h e n h e s a i d t h a t t h e d o c u m e n t t h a t M r R a j e s h G u p t a –
20

To n y G u p t a w a n t e d h i m t o s i g n . W h e n h e s a i d th a t i n e ffe c t t h a t is a
m a t t e r t h a t s h o u l d g o to t h e h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t M r R a j e s h G u p t a
s u g g e s t e d to h i m t h a t h e s h o u ld g e t r i d o f – o f h is h e a d o f d e p a r t m e n t
a n d t h e c a l l w a s m a d e a n d t h e n Mr R ic h a r d – w h a t is h is s u r n a m e
a g a in ? Mr R i c h a r d S e l e k e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Seleke.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a S e l e k e – M r R ic h a r d S e le k e w a s b r o u g h t in a n d i n
e ffe c t h e – y o u s a i d y o u k n o w …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S a id h e w a s b r o u g h t i n t o th e m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h i s is t h e p e r s o n – j a a t th e m e e ti n g .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

T h is is th e p e r s o n y o u s h o u l d h a v e a s y o u r h e a d o f

d e p a r t m e n t. S o I m e n t i o n e d t h a t t h i s s i m p ly a s p a r t o f t h a t o b s e r v a t i o n
t h a t y o u h a v e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e o n b o t h o c c a s io n s t h e v e n u e is th e
G u p t a r e s i d e n c e . O n b o th o c c a s io n s M r R a j e s h G u p ta is i n t h e h o u s e .
10

O n b o t h o c c a s io n s – o n b o t h o c c a s i o n s h e a t l e a s t o n t h e v e r s io n o f
a n d n o t n e c e s s a r i ly h i s b e c a u s e w e d o n o t k n o w h is v e r s i o n . O n th e
v e r s i o n o f a p e r s o n v is i ti n g t h e h o u s e – t h e p e r s o n v i s i t in g t h e h o u s e is
b e i n g a s k e d t o d o c e r t a i n t h i n g s a n d h e is b e i n g o ff e r e d m o n e y fo r th a t .
A n d b o t h o c c a s i o n s i t l o o k s li k e t h e r e c o n t e m p la t io n th a t s o m e b o d y
m a y h a v e to l e a v e a c e r ta in p o s i ti o n a n d s o m e b o d y e l s e m ig h t – m u s t
t a k e t h a t p o s i t io n .

B u t I a m j u s t c o m p l e ti n g t h e p i c t u r e .

I th i n k I

u n d e r s t a n d w h a t = w h a t y o u h a v e s a id .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

T h a t is d e f in i te ly t h e n a r r a t iv e t h a t i s o u t

there.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d I a m b e i n g l ik e I s a i d I a m b e i n g p la c e d a t
the crime scene.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

Page 102 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M o s t ti m e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : B u t w h il s t w e a r e s t il l o n th a t i f I c a n ju s t r e f e r
u s b a c k to p o i n t 5 5 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

N o I m e a n i t i s j u s t t h e p a r a g r a p h th a t d e a ls

w i t h t h e J a g e r s f o n te i n m i n e . T h e – l o o k I a m n o t s u r e y o u k n o w a lo t is
s a i d – a lo t o f a c c u s a t i o n s h a v e b e e n l a i d o n m y ta b le . B u t j u s t a p o i n t
o f c u r i o s it y I m e a n w i th a l l – w i t h a ll d u e r e s p e c t C h a ir …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r Z u m a I d i d a s k t h a t th e a ir c o n d i ti o n e r
b e p u t o n b u t m a y b e n o t to o h ig h .

I t h i n k i t i s i n t e r fe r i n g .

I do not

k n o w i f w h e th e r – w h e th e r if y o u r a i s e y o u r v o ic e t h a t is g o i n g t o m a k e
a d i ffe r e n c e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t tr y a n d r a i s e y o u r v o ic e .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

O k a y I w i ll d o t h a t C h a ir.

Thank you.

No I

m e a n i t i s j u s t a p o i n t o f c u r i o s i ty. A n d I s a y it w it h a l l d u e r e s p e c t .
T h e r e a r e a l o t o f a c c u s a t io n s t h a t h a v e b e e n l a b e l l e d a n d p l a c e d a n d
o n m e a n d I a m n o t s u r e w h a t th e i n v e s t ig a tiv e p r o c e s s e s h a v e b e e n
20

b u t y o u k n o w I w o u ld j u s t l ik e t o a s k y o u h a v e h e a r d w h a t I h a v e h a d to
s a y a b o u t m y n o n - a t te n d a n c e in t h i s m e e t in g – m y d e n i a l o f t h i s
m e e ti n g . B u t w h e n i t c o m e s t o p r o c e d u r a l p o in ts I h a v e b e e n a c c u s e d
o f r e c e iv in g m o n ie s fr o m t h e y s a i d – b y M r D u k w a n a – h a s t h e
c o m m i s s io n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y – I a m s o r r y I mi s s e d th a t . Yo u h a v e b e e n

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
accused of?
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A :

O f r e c e i v i n g m o n e y fr o m a m in in g p r o j e c t i n

J a g e r s fo n t e i n . Ye s I ju s t w a n t e d t o a s k d id t h e c o m m i s s i o n fo ll o w a n y
due process.

D i d t h e y l o o k i n t o i t ? D i d t h e y i n v e s t i g a t e ? W h a t i s th e

s t a tu s o n th a t ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m e a n w h a t M r D u k w a n a s a y s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s .

J u s t a s a p o in t o f – o f g e t ti n g t o th e

b o t t o m o f i t . T h e r e a s o n I a m a s k i n g is …
CHAIRPERSON :
10

W e ll – y e s – w e ll a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t h e – h e i s n o t

s a y in g t h a t y o u g a v e m o n e y t o a n y b o d y M r D u k w a n a ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I f I e v e r m a d e a s t a te m e n t [i n d is t in c t ] C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

N o t h e r e a s o n – r e a s o n I a m a s k i n g i s th e r e

a r e a l o t o f a c c u s a t io n s t h a t h a v e b e e n th r o w n a r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Yo u k n o w tr u e o r f a ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is fo r t h e c o m m i s s io n to
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : To d e c i d e . S o t h i s s p e c if ic p o i n t.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h e t h e r t h e c o m m is s i o n d e c id e s t o b e li e v e m y
v e r s i o n o r M r D u k w a n a ’s v e r s i o n o r w h o e v e r e ls e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

D u e p r o c e s s b y – fr o m a n in v e s t i g a t iv e

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
p e r s p e c t iv e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

B y t h e c o m m is s i o n h a v e t h e y a c tu a lly lo o k e d

in t o y o u k n o w a c ti v i ti e s i n J a g e r s f o n t e in ? I s th e r e – a r e t h e r e a c t u a ll y
m i n e s t h a t e x is t t h e r e ?

Ar e t h e r e a n y l i n k a g e s t h a t a r e l i n k i n g th is

s p e c i f ic – b e c a u s e t h i s is a v e r y – v e r y s e r io u s a l le g a ti o n ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a w e l l l o o k p a r t o f tr y i n g to e s ta b lis h w h a t t h e tr u t h
is i s e x a c tly h e a r i n g b o t h s id e s . S o w h a t is h a p p e n in g h e r e is p a r t o f
tr y i n g t o u n d e r s ta n d w h a t t h e tr u t h i s . U p t o t o d a y c e r t a i n ly I d i d n o t
10

know whether your version is that you adm it that you were present at
t h a t m e e t in g o r n o t . S o n o w I k n o w t h a t y o u r v e r s i o n i s t h a t y o u w e r e
n o t a t t h a t m e e t i n g . S o t h is i s n o t t h e e n d o f th e m a t t e r t h e r e w il l b e
more

witnesses

who

w il l

be

c a l le d .

And

th e

i n v e s t ig a ti o n

–

in v e s t i g a t o r s d o w h a t th e y c a n b u t th e p e o p l e i m p l ic a te d a ls o th e y a r e
e x p e c te d t o c o m e f o r w a r d a n d s a y – I k n o w t h a t t h e c o m m is s i o n h a s
b e e n t o l d th is a n d t h a t a b o u t m e . I n t h is c a s e I t a k e i t th a t y o u w e r e
f u r n is h e d w i th M r D u k w a n a ’s a ffi d a v i t . S o t h e y a r e e x p e c t e d i f t h e y d o
n o t a g r e e w i t h w h a t h a s b e e n s a id a b o u t t h e m t h e y a r e e x p e c t e d t o
c o m e f o r w a r d t o th e c o m m is s i o n to s a y I w a n t t h e r e c o r d t o b e p u t
20

s tr a ig h t .

H e r e is m y o w n s t a t e m e n t , h e r e i s m y a ffi d a v i t , I d e n y t h i s .

T h i s – I w a s n o t a t t h a t m e e ti n g . A n d i n d e e d i f y o u h a v e b e e n g iv e n
s o m e b o d y ’s s t a t e m e n t s w h o s a y s s o m e th in g a b o u t y o u o r i m p l ic a t e s
y o u i n a n y t h i n g y o u w o u ld h a v e b e e n g i v e n t h a t t o g e t h e r w i th a n o t ic e
fr o m t h e c o m m i s s i o n t h a t a d v is e s y o u o f y o u r r i g h ts . A n d p a r t o f t h e –
o f th o s e – s o m e o f t h o s e r i g h t s a r e t h a t y o u c a n a p p ly t o c o m m i s s i o n t o

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
g iv e e v i d e n c e y o u r s e lf a n d r e fu t e w h a t is b e i n g s a i d a b o u t y o u o r
a g a in s t y o u a n d s o o n a n d s o o n . Yo u c a n a p p l y fo r L e a v e t o C r o s s e x a m in e .

S o m e p e o p l e d o n o t a p p ly f o r L e a v e to C r o s s - e x a m i n e b u t

t h e y s e n d a n a f fi d a v i t s a y in g th is is my v e r s io n . Yo u k n o w.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : So – so
1 . T h i s is p a r t o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n tr y in g t o e s t a b li s h t h e t r u t h a n d
y o u h a v e n o w t o l d u s w h a t y o u r s id e o f t h e s to r y i s i n r e g a r d to
that.
10

A n d th a t is n o t t h e e n d .

T h e c o m m is s i o n w o u l d l o o k a t

t h i n g s b u t y o u a r e n o t e x p e c t e d to s it b a c k a n d d o n o t h i n g i f i t is
s o m e t h i n g t h a t y o u fe e l s tr o n g l y a b o u t .
I n d e e d i f y o u d o n o th in g a b o u t i t i n c i r c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e y o u a r e a w a r e
that somebody has given evidence or has given t he commission a
s t a te m e n t t h a t i m p l ic a t e s y o u if y o u d o n o th in g a b o u t i t y o u m i g h t b e
e x p e c te d n o t t o c o m p l a i n i f th e c o m m is s i o n a t a c e r ta in s t a g e ta k e s i t
t h a t y o u h a d n o v e r s i o n t o p u t f o r w a r d . Yo u h a d n o p r o b l e m w i th w h a t
w a s b e i n g s a i d a b o u t y o u . Yo u u n d e r s ta n d th a t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I u n d e r s ta n d C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Ja. Ja.

20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h f o r t h e c l a r i ty.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y a lr i g h t .

Thank you.

Mr Mokoena you may

proceed.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

C h a ir I w i ll tr y t o m o v e a s q u ic k a s

p o s s i b le in o r d e r t o s h o r t c ir c u i t t h e r e m a i n i n g is s u e s w h ic h I w is h t o
c a n v a s s w i th M r Z u m a . M r Z u m a I w a s j u s t a b o u t t o m o v e t o d e a l w i th

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
t h e e v id e n c e o f M r S u n d a r a m .
CHAIRPERSON :

Maybe I should say Mr Mokoena I – I have not put

a n y ti m e l i m it i n r e g a r d t o q u e s ti o n s r e l a ti n g t o t h e o th e r w it n e s s e s
s i m p l y b e c a u s e o n m y r e c o l le c ti o n n o b o d y h a s a p p l ie d t o c r o s s e x a m in e a n d s o o n f o r L e a v e t o C r o s s - e x a m i n e o r r a t h e r h e h a s n o t
a p p li e d t o – fo r L e a v e to C r o s s - e x a m i n e t h e m u n l ik e w i th r e g a r d to M r
Jonas.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :
10

B u t o b v i o u s ly t h a t d o e s n o t m e a n y o u h a v e a ll t h e

ti m e n o , I w i ll b e k e e p i n g a n e y e o n h o w m u c h t i m e y o u s p e n d o n e a c h .
S o I ju s t t h o u g h t m a y b e I s h o u ld j u s t e x p la in t h a t. S o l e t u s d o w h a t
w e c a n t o e n s u r e t h a t t h e i s s u e s a r e – ju s ti c e i s d o n e t o t h e i s s u e s b u t
a t t h e s a m e ti m e w e d o n o t n e c e s s a r i ly t a k e t o o l o n g . O k a y. I a m n o t
e x p e c ti n g y o u to t a k e t o o lo n g b u t I w a n t e d t o e x p la i n t h a t w h y I h a v e
n o t s a id a n y th i n g a b o u t t i m e fr a m e s w i t h r e g a r d to t h e o t h e r w i t n e s s e s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

So you can proceed where I think maybe we have

t a k e n t o o lo n g I w i ll m e n ti o n o n a n y p a r ti c u l a r w i t n e s s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
20

Ye s .

M r S u n d a r a m u s e d to w o r k f o r

I n f i n i ty a n d a t a l a t e r s t a g e M r D u d u z a n e h e w a s t h e e d i to r o f A N N 7 , d o
you know him?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s I d o k n o w h i m th a n k y o u .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . H e t e s ti f ie d b e fo r e th is c o m m i s s i o n
a n d r e l a t e d t o t h e C h a ir t h e e v e n ts w h ic h t o o k p la c e i n f o u r m e e ti n g s
w h ic h h e r e fe r s t o i n h is s t a t e m e n t a n d h e s a y s t h a t t h r e e o f th o s e

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
m e e ti n g s w e r e h e l d a t th e p r e s i d e n ti a l r e s id e n c e in P r e t o r i a a n d o n e o f
t h e m I t h in k th e la s t o n e – t h e fo u r t h m e e ti n g w a s h e l d a t A N N 7 ’s
o ffic e s in I th i n k h e s a id in S a n d t o n .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : In M i d r a n d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I n M id r a n d .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Ja.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o w d i d y o u a t te n d a ll o f th o s e m e e t in g s
o r a n y – o r s o m e o f th o s e m e e ti n g s ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I o n l y a t t e n d e d o n e o f th o s e .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : One of those
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . T h a t w a s in M i d r a n d .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e o n e t h a t y o u a t te n d e d is i t th e
one where was it held?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : In M i d r a n d a t t h e A N N 7 s tu d i o s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w w e h a v e n o w e s t a b li s h e d a n d
it is c o m m o n c a u s e t h a t y o u a r e a s h a r e h o l d e r i n M a b e n g e l a m a y I c a l l
it ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

20

A n d in t u r n M a b e n g e l a h e l d s h a r e s in

I n f i n i ty M e d i a N e t w o r k s , a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

A n d w o u l d I a ls o b e c o r r e c t t h a t

M a b e n g e l a d i d c o n d u c t b u s in e s s w i th o u r g o v e r n m e n t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Fr o m a n – j a y e s t h e y d id , t h a t i s c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W e ll n o A N N 7 d i d n o t M a b e n g e l a .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o th e T V s ta t io n d i d n o t m y c o m p a n y d i r e c t ly.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I f I p u t i t t h e o t h e r – i f I s a y th a t M e d i a
Networks –
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I n fi n i ty M e d i a N e tw o r k s d id c o n d u c t

b u s i n e s s w i t h g o v e r n m e n t.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

N o w t h e i d e a o f t h e T V s ta t io n

w o u ld I b e c o r r e c t t h a t t h e p e r s o n w h o w a s m u c h m o r e i n v o lv e d – I
mean if I compare you and your father it was your father who was m uch
m o r e i n v o lv e d in t h e T V s t a t i o n t h a n y o u ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t t h a t S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u d o n o t k n o w a b o u t th a t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

O k a y.

N o w i n th e m e e ti n g t h a t y o u

a tt e n d e d w a s y o u r f a t h e r a ls o p r e s e n t – t h e Pr e s id e n t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Th a t w a s a s t u d i o v is i t s o i t w a s w a l k a r o u n d
20

the studuo.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : So he was present?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Th a n k y o u . C a n I r e f e r y o u t o b u n d l e C .
W e a r e n o w g o i n g t o d e a l w i th b u n d l e C o n ly. Yo u c a n i g n o r e t h e o th e r
bundles.

I f I m a y r e f e r y o u t o p a g e 3 6 w it h p a r ti c u la r r e fe r e n c e t o

Page 109 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
p a r a g r a p h 9 . I j u s t w a n t t o e s t a b l is h w h e t h e r w e r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e s e
p r e s e n t a ti o n s o r a t w h a t p o i n t w e r e y o u i n v o l v e d w i th t h e T V s t a ti o n o r
y o u r c o m p a n y c o n d u c ti n g b u s i n e s s w i t h g o v e r n m e n t th r o u g h y o u k n o w
a n y o f y o u r e n ti t ie s . N o w in p a r a g r a p h 9 M r S u n d a r a m s a y s t h a t
“ I h a d e a r l ie r b e e n t o ld b y M r A t u l G u p ta t o p r e p a r e a
d e t a i l e d p r e s e n t a ti o n a b o u t a ll a s p e c ts o f t h e T V
p r o j e c t f o r t h e P r e s id e n t. T h r e e c o p i e s o f t h i s r e p o r t
w e r e p r i n te d a n d b o u n d b y A s la m K a m a l a n e m p l o y e e
o f N e w A g e a n d c l o s e c o n fi d a n t e o f t h e G u p t a
10

b r o t h e r s .”
D i d y o u c o m e t o k n o w a b o u t t h i s p r e s e n ta t io n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o I d o n o t k n o w a b o u t t h i s p r e s e n ta t io n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u a r e n o t p a r t o f i t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No I am not.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Now if you move onto paragraph 12 of

t h e s a m e p a g e Mr S u n d a r a m s a i d th a t :
“ Af t e r I a r r iv e d in S o u th A f r ic a I g o t t o k n o w t h a t th e
t h e n P r e s i d e n t J a c o b Z u m a ’s s o n M r D u d u z a n e Z u m a
w a s a 3 0 % s h a r e h o ld e r in I n f i n i ty M e d i a .”
20

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I t w a s n o s e c r e t S ir t h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Sorry?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I t w a s n o s e c r e t t h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C o r r e c t y e s . A n d i f y o u m o v e o n a ls o t o
p a g e 3 7 s i m p ly t o v e r i fy c e r t a in is s u e s w i t h p a r tic u la r r e f e r e n c e to

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
p a r a g r a p h 1 8 w h ic h s i m p l y i d e n t i fi e s d i ff e r e n t r o le p la y e r s .

Mr

S u n d a r a m s a y s t h a t t h e fir s t m e e t in g w i t h M r J a c o b Z u m a w a s a t te n d e d
b y M r A j a y G u p ta , M r A t u l G u p t a , Mr N a z e e m H o w a , Mr M o e g a s i e n
W il li a m s , M r As h u C h a w l a a n d Mr A r u n A g a w a n a n d m e .

I k n o w th a t

y o u s a i d y o u d i d n o t a t t e n d th is fir s t m e e ti n g b u t m a y b e t h e la s t
m e e ti n g .

W h e n th e r e w a s th is s t u d i o v is it w e r e th e s e i n d i v i d u a l a ls o

p r e s e n t ? To t h e b e s t o f y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

To th e b e s t o f my r e c o l l e c ti o n I t h in k t h e

m a jo r i ty w o u ld h a v e b e e n p r e s e n t .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y. N o w d i d y o u c o m e t o k n o w w h a t
w e r e t h e ir r o l e i n th e T V s ta t io n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e r o l e o f w h ic h s p e c i f ic p e r s o n s ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Th e i n d iv id u a l t h a t y o u s a y in g – I m e a n
t h o s e t h a t a r e i d e n ti f ie d o n p a r a g r a p h 1 8 ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s , y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ja.

No I am saying that do you know

w h a t e a c h r o l e w a s – I m e a n w a s p l a y e d b y t h e s e i n d iv i d u a l s , d o y o u
know?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s , y e s I r e s p o n d e d y e s I .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C a n y o u te ll u s – c a n y o u s h a r e w it h u s I
am sorry?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y. Mr A j a y is a c o - s h a r e h o l d e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

T h a t is M r A ja y G u p t a s o r r y.

w a s c h a ir m a n o f t h e g r o u p .

Page 111 of 176

Mr Atul Gupta

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I f y o u c a n – s lo w ly.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y. Mr A j a y G u p ta is a s h a r e h o ld e r.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Mr A t u l G u p ta is c h a ir m a n o f th e g r o u p .

N a z e e m H o w a w a s G r o u p C E O i f I r e c a ll .

Mr

M r M o e g s ie n W il li a m s w a s

t h e G r o u p E d i t o r. M r A r u n A g r i w a l w a s th e c o - s h a r e h o l d e r a s w e l l fr o m
I n d ia .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t h i n k y o u h a v e ju m p e d o n e n a m e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e n I a m s o r r y M r A s h u C h a w la h e
10

w a s I t h i n k d ir e c t o r a t o n e o f o u r I T c o m p a n i e s y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

W o u ld I b e a ls o c o r r e c t th a t y o u w e r e

c o - o w n e r s w it h M r C h a w la in M a b e n g e la ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . Yo u w e r e a ls o c o - d ir e c to r s w i th M r
Ashu Chawla in Oakbay?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

A n d y o u – w o u l d I b e c o r r e c t th a t M r

A s h u C h a w l a w a s t h e C E O o f th e S a h a r a C o m p u t e r s t h e G u p ta o w n e d
e n t i ty ?
20

M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : Ye s i f I r e c o ll e c t a t th is p o i n t h e p o s s i b l y w a s
ja [ m u m b li n g ] .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s . A n d w o u l d I a ls o b e c o r r e c t t h a t

y o u w e r e a d i r e c t o r in S a h a r a H o l d i n g s ?
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A : T h a t s o u n d s c o r r e c t S ir. I w il l h a v e t o c h e c k
that at that point but it sounds correct.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

To s u m i t u p a l s o w o u l d I b e

c o r r e c t t h a t y o u h a d c l o s e b u s i n e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p w i th M r C h a w l a ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

N o w c a n I r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 3 9 .

P a r a g r a p h 1 9 . 4 M r S u n d a r a m s a y s t h a t As h u w a s t h e C E O o f t h e G u p t a
o w n e d S a h a r a C o m p u t e r s . H e h a d l iv e d i n S o u t h A fr ic a f o r m a n y y e a r s
a n d w a s t h e G u p ta ’s p o i n t m a n f o r a n y c o - o r d i n a t io n w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t
a n d t h e S o u th A f r ic a n g o v e r n m e n t .

H e w a s p a r t ic u l a r ly c l o s e t o

P r e s i d e n t ’s s o n D u d u z a n e . W o u ld t h a t b e a c c u r a te ?
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o t h a t is n o t a c c u r a t e .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u a r e n o t c lo s e w it h h i m ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o n o t a t a ll .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll is t h e p a r t th a t y o u s a y is n o t a c c u r a t e th e la s t
s e n te n c e t h a t s a y s y o u w e r e p a r tic u la r ly – h e w a s p a r ti c u l a r l y c l o s e t o
y o u o r is i t . .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m – it is a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r i s i t e v e r y th i n g in t h a t p a r a g r a p h ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

20

I t is b o t h p o i n ts s o r r y I w a s p a r t ic u l a r ly

r e s p o n d i n g to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e l a s t p a r t w h e r e my r e la t io n s h i p w i t h h i m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Were said
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is w h a t y o u a r e r e s p o n d i n g to ?

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s I a m r e s p o n d i n g t o t h a t a n d I w o u l d lik e t o
a ls o r e s p o n d t o th e p o in t w h e r e i t s a i d h e h a d li v e d i n S o u t h A fr i c a f o r
many years.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d w a s a G u p ta ’s p o i n t m a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Fo r a n y c o - o r d in a ti o n w i t h t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d

t h e S o u th A fr ic a n g o v e r n m e n t . I a m n o t a w a r e o f t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o I a m r e f u ti n g t h a t a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is f a ir.

A n d i f I m a y r e f e r y o u to

page 56 – 56.
CHAIRPERSON :

M a y b e l e t m e j u s t w i t h r e g a r d t o t h a t l a s t o n e . Yo u

k n o w i t s a y s h e w a s p a r t ic u l a r l y c l o s e t o y o u .

I f w e ta k e o u t

p a r t ic u l a r ly a n d s a y h e w a s c lo s e t o y o u , i s t h a t fi n e , is t h a t a c c u r a te ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o h e is s t il l v e r y c o l d j a . S ti ll c o ld n o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e w a s n o t c l o s e to y o u ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : H e w a s n o t c lo s e t o m e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u o n l y b u s in e s s r e l a ti o n s h i p w it h h i m ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr i g h t .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON : Thank you.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

N o w i f I m a y r e fe r y o u t o p a g e 5 6 .

P a r a g r a p h 2 5 . 1 7 a n d h e s a y s th a t :
“I later asked Nazeem…”
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y i t is a n o th e r p a g e ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s i t is 5 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Page 6?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : 56.
C H A I R P E R S O N : 5 6 o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : 2 5 .1 7 .
“ I la t e r a s k e d N a z e e m w h y P r e s i d e n t Z u m a i n s i s t e d
o n le c tu r i n g u s o n e d i t o r i a l a n d p e r s o n a l m a tt e r s . D o
y o u n o t k n o w h a s n o t L e x M a g e e to l d y o u a lr e a d y h e
h a s a b i g s a y in th is v e n t u r e .
h o l d s 3 0 % i n t h e c o m p a n y.

His son Duduzane

H is i n v o lv e m e n t i s v e r y

c r i ti c a l to t h e f ir s t y e a r o f o u r o p e r a t i o n s . I f w e a r e
a b l e t o g e t g o v e r n m e n t a d v e r ti s e m e n t w e w i ll b e a b l e
t o b r e a k – w e w il l b e a b le t o b r e a k e v e n in t h e fi r s t
20

y e a r h e to ld m e . I f t h is w e r e tr u e i t w o u l d e x p l a i n a
lo t a n d i t f e l t a s th o u g h e v e r y th in g w a s f a ll i n g i n to
p l a c e .”
C a n y o u c o n f ir m t h a t y o u d id h o l d 3 0 A% o f th e c o m p a n y ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I c a n c o n fir m t h a t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : T h a t n u m b e r m a y h a v e c h a n g e d b u t I c o n fir m i t
is a r o u n d t h a t n u m b e r y e s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

A n d t h e n d i d t h e e n ti ty g e t a n y

b u s i n e s s fr o m g o v e r n m e n t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I t d id .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e n w e c a n m o v e n o w to p a r a g r a p h
5 6 – p a g e 5 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : What page?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : The very same page.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : If – let us go to paragraph 25.18.
“The news channel was heading would be a pro ANC
p r o Z u m a c h a n n e l th a t w a s p r o m o te d a n d r u n b y n o t
o n ly p e o p l e c l o s e t o th e Pr e s id e n t – t o Pr e s id e n t
Z u m a b u t b y P r e s i d e n t Z u m a h i ms e lf . I f N a z e e m h a d
h is [ i n d is t in c t ] a n d Z u m a h e l d th e s h a r e s t h r o u g h h is
s o n h e w o u l d b e p r o j e c t e d p o s i ti v e ly i n t h e n e w s
b u ll e ti n s . I n t h is s c e n a r i o I c o u ld s e e h o w h e w o u ld
u s e h is p o s it i o n a s P r e s id e n t to e n s u r e g o v e r n m e n t

20

a d v e r t is e m e n t – a d v e r t is in g fo r t h e s t a ti o n .

The

i m p o r t a n t p a r t w h ic h I th in k is r e l e v a n t is t h a t is a ls o
s e e m e d i f th is w a s t r u e t h a t th e r e w a s a c le a r
c o n fli c t o f i n t e r e s t a s h i s s o n h a d a s t a k e i n n o t j u s t
Gupta owned newspaper but also a proposed TV –
t h e p r o p o s e d t e le v is i o n n e w s c h a n n e l .”

Page 116 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A n d I a m a ff o r d i n g y o u t h i s o p p o r t u n i ty t o c o m m e n t o n t h e c o n t e n t s o f
that paragraph.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Is th e r e a n y t h i n g s p e c i fi c t h a t y o u w o u l d li k e

to know?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h ic h o f t h e p o r ti o n s o f t h a t p a r a g r a p h
d o y o u d is p u te a n d w h ic h o n e s a r e a c c u r a t e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : L o o k I t h in k t h e r e is a l o t o f c r e a t iv e w r i t in g i n
t h is p a r a g r a p h .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Hm.
10

M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

T h e s i m p l e – th e s i m p l e f a c t is g o v e r n m e n t

a d v e r t is in g w e l l f o r u s t o b e i n li n e f o r g o v e r n m e n t a d v e r ti s i n g s h o u l d
n e v e r b e a n i s s u e . Th e c o n fl ic t m y s e l f b e i n g th e s o n th e P r e s i d e n t a t
t h a t ti m e – m y f a t h e r b e i n g i n o ffi c e I t h i n k th a t i s a n u n f a ir p o i n t t o
m a k e b y M r S u n d a r a m o r a n y o n e e l s e . T h e f a c t o f th e m a t t e r is i t w a s
a T V s t a t i o n – i t w a s a n e w T V C h a n n e l . I t w a s a s ta r t - u p a n j u s t li k e
any other channel I implore government to support any start -ups.

So

w h e n i t c o m e s to g o v e r n m e n t a d s p e n d r e v e n u e ju s t l ik e a n y o t h e r
o u t le t s t h a t e x i s t s o u t t h e r e y o u n a m e t h e m , t h e y g e t ti n g g o v e r n m e n t
s u p p o r t v ia a d v e r ti s i n g r e v e n u e .
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A :

S o I c o m p l e t e ly r e f u t e th is th o s e w h o l e

paragraph.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

N o w l e t u s d is s e c t y o u k n o w w h a t y o u

h a v e j u s t s a i d to t h e C h a ir in t h e li g h t o f w h a t M r S u n d a r a m h a s s a i d .
Fi r s tl y i f m y m e m o r y s e r v e s m e w e ll y o u r f a th e r t h e P r e s id e n t M r Z u m a

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
d i d n o t d is p u t e th a t h e p l a y e d a n i n s tr u m e n ta l r o l e i n t h e e s ta b l is h m e n t
o f t h e T V s t a ti o n w h e n h e a p p e a r e d . D o y o u r e c a ll h i s t e s t i m o n y ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I f t h a t is w h a t y o u s a y i n g I w il l ta k e y o u r w o r d
for it.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . A n d t h e n – t h a t is th e fi r s t p o i n t .
T h e s e c o n d p o i n t is t h a t y o u o w n s h a r e s o r y o u h a v e i n te r e s t in t h e T V
c h a n n e l it s e l f d ir e c tl y o r in d i r e c tly, a m I c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
10

Ye s .

T h e T V c h a n n e l w a s g e t ti n g

b u s i n e s s f r o m g o v e r n m e n t y o u h a v e j u s t s i m p l y c o n fir m e d th a t , t h a t is
correct?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Now would that not be any obvious

c o n fli c t fr o m t h e a n a ly s i s o f th o s e fa c ts ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h ic h f a c ts ? T h e f a c ts t h a t y o u h a v e ju s t p u t
to me?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W h ic h I h a v e j u s t p u t to y o u y e s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No I do not think so.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : N o c o n f lic t a t a ll ?
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o r r y Sir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u a r e s a y in g th e r e is n o c o n f lic t a t a ll ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I d o n o t th i n k s o n o .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s . N o w i f w e c a n m o v e t o p a g e 5 6 . I
w a n t t o m o v e o v e r f r o m p a g e 5 6 to p a g e 5 9 C h a ir. P a r a g r a p h 2 8 . 8 a n d
I w il l r e a d w it h – t o y o u a ls o p a r a g r a p h 2 8 .1 0 a n d 2 8 .1 3 s i m p l y t o – to

Page 118 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
f a s t t r a c k th is – t h e li n e o f q u e s t io n . 2 8 . 8 it s a y s t h a t :
“ At u l h a s o r g a n i s e d a c h i p r e a d e r a n d a 1 4 i n c h
p r o c u s q u a li ty m o n it o r t o b e s e n t to A s h u e a r li e r in
t h e d a y. H e w a s to b r i n g t h is fo r t h e m e e ti n g s . W e
w e r e u s h e r e d in t o th e s a m e w a i ti n g r o o m w h e r e w e
had before – been before. Soon Duduzane Zuma
w a lk e d i n a n d g r e e t e d u s b e fo r e p r o c e e d in g to h u g
t h e G u p t a b r o t h e r s . “ W e h a d a s u r p r is e f o r y o u
t o d a y.” T h a t i s i n q u o t e . W e h a d a s u r p r i s e f o r y o u
10

t o d a y D u d u w e w il l s h o w y o u t h e b u l le t i n w e h a v e
been producing.

Aj a y G u p ta s a id w i t h a n a n i m a t e d

m o v e m e n t o f h is h a n d s . G o o d s o w e s h o u ld m o v e t o
t h e n e x t r o o m i t h a s a la r g e T V. I n s ta r t i n g m o v in g
o u t a n d a l l o f u s fo ll o w e d h i m . ”
D o y o u r e c a l l t h e s e e v e n ts ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o ju s t t o p u t i t i n t o c o n t e x t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

S o it is n o t t a k e n o u t o f c o n t e x t .

I f – I w il l

a n s w e r y o u r q u e s t io n . I f w e g o b a c k t o 2 8 . 6 .
20

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : yes.
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A : W h ic h i s p a g e 5 8 . A n d I w i ll j u s t r e a d t h e f ir s t
s e n te n c e . I t s a y s :
“ T h e p l a n w a s t o t a k e a c h i p r e a d e r to Pr e s id e n t
Z u m a ’s P r e t o r i a h o u s e a n d c o n n e c t i t to a m o n i t o r f o r
h i m t o s e e t h e b u l l e t i n s .”

Page 119 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
S o w h e n w e c o m e to p a r a g r a p h 2 8 . 8 I a m b e i n g p la c e d i n t h i s m e e t in g
w h ic h I h a v e c l e a r ly t o l d y o u t h a t I w a s n o t p a r t o f . Yo u a s k i n g m e to
comment on an event that I was not – well a scenario that I was not
p a r t o f . I a m n o t s u r e h o w y o u e x p e c t m e t o d o th a t S ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I a m s i m p ly p u t t in g t o y o u w h a t M r

S u n d a r a m h a s a c t u a lly t o l d th e C h a ir a n d t o g iv e y o u a f a i r o p p o r t u n i ty
t o [ in d i s ti n c t ] t o i t . S o y o u r a n s w e r i t i s s i m p ly th a t y o u a r e n o t p a r t o f
t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

N o w le t u s m o v e o n t o p a r a - to

p a g e 6 2 . P a r a g r a p h 2 8 .1 8 a n d t o a ff o r d y o u a c h a n c e - a n o p p o r t u n i t y
to respond to that.
“ At t h is p o i n t A j a y a s k e d m e to g o b a c k to t h e o ffic e
w h il e A t u l , N a z e e m a n d D u d u z a n e m e t h i m f o r
d is c u s s io n s a b o u t t h e n e w s p a p e r a n d c o m m e r c i a l
is s u e s . I w a s t o l d t h e n e x t d a y t h a t - I w a s t o ld t h e
next day by - next day by Nazeem and Atul that
t h e y h a d s e c u r e d R 2 0 m il li o n s w o r t h o f b u s i n e s s
t h e p r e v i o u s e v e n i n g . B y t h i s ti m e I h a d d e c i d e d t o
20

r e s ig n a s e d i to r a t A N N 7 a n d g o b a c k t o I n d i a a f t e r
t h e l a u n c h . I t w a s h a p p e n i n g w i t h o u t t h e e x t e n s iv e
tr a i n i n g I h a d s u g g e s te d . I t w a s h a p p e n i n g w i t h o u r
t e s t r u n s w i th a ll s y s te m s a n d e q u ip m e n t i n p l a c e
b u t w h a t r e a l ly p u s h e d m e t o r e s ig n w a s th e
v io l a t i o n

of

e d it o r ia l

i n t e g r i ty

Page 120 of 176

and

dubious

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
c o m m e r c ia l d e a li n g s t h a t I h a d s e e n w i t h m y o w n
e y e s .”
W o u l d a ls o b e t h i s o n e o f th e o c c a s io n s w h e r e p e o p l e a r e
s i m p l y p l a c in g y o u i n th e c r i m e s c e n e a s y o u h a v e s u g g e s t e d w i th t h e
o th e r w i t n e s s e s ? Yo u w e r e n o t p a r t o f t h i s m e e ti n g a s w e l l.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : J u s t g iv e m e o n e s e c o n d . L e t m e ju s t; th is w il l
b e p a r t o f th e s a m e m e e ti n g c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d y o u w e r e n o t p a r t o f i t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Yo u w e r e s i m p l y p l a c e d o n th e c r i m e

s c e n e a s w e l l?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A lr ig h t .

N o w l e t u s tu r n t o p a g e 6 3 .

B e f o r e w e g o t o p a g e 6 3 w h i l e y o u a r e s ti l l o n p a g e 6 2 s o t h a t y o u a r e
a b l e to f a m i li a r i s e y o u r s e l f w it h t h e c o n t e x t o f w h a t I a m - I a m a b o u t to
p u t t o y o u . T h i s i s n o w th e f o u r th m e e ti n g w h i c h h a p p e n e d a t M id r a n d .
T h e o ffic e s o f A N N 7 .
20

On 19 August 2013 were you part of this

m e e ti n g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : ( N o a u d i b l e r e p ly ) .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Mr Zuma.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : W e r e y o u p a r t o f th is m e e ti n g ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : J u s t g iv e m e t w o s e c o n d s p le a s e .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , y e s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . T h is i s a m e e ti n g t h a t I w a s p a r t o f .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d i n p a r a g r a p h 3 0 M r S u n d a r a m

said:
“ Ap a r t fr o m t h e u s u a l a tt e n d e e s t h e m e e ti n g w a s
a ls o

attended

by

M r D u d u z a n e Zu m a .

Mr L a x m i G o e l

and

Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a t o u r e d t h e

s t u d i o s , n e w s r o o m a n d te c h n i c a l a r e a s a t t h e N A A N 7 O ff ic e a n d a l s o m e t t h e s t a ff d u r i n g t h e v i s i t .
10

M y l a s t m e e t in g w i th P r e s i d e n t Z u m a h a p p e n e d j u s t
4 8 h o u r s b e fo r e A N N 7 la u n c h e d . I w a s t o l d t h a t t h e
P r e s i d e n t w o u l d m a k e a q u i c k t r i p t o th e s t u d i o s to
t a k e a l o o k f o r h i m s e l f a n d h e w a s e x p e c t e d t o s ta y
o n to s e e t h e r o l li n g o f t h e n e w s b u ll e ti n .

I was

p a r t o f t h e te a m t h a t w o u l d s h o w h i m a r o u n d . Th is
w a s c r i tic a l - t h is w a s a c r i t ic a l ti m e a s I w a s
v is u a ll y c a m p in g i n th e o ffi c e .

Sleeping for a few

h o u r s i n t h e te m p o r a r y r e s t a r e a c r e a t e d f o r a f e w
m e m b e r s o f t h e c o r e t e a m o n th e fir s t fl o o r o f t h e
20

N e w A g e O ff ic e s .

I w a s i n th e m o r n i n g i n th e

e d i to r i a l m e e ti n g w h e r e I g o t a c a ll fr o m As la m t o
c o m e a n d r e c e i v e t h e Pr e s id e n t.
a n y t i m e n o w.

H e is e x p e c t e d

Laxmi and Atul G want to see me

i m m e d i a t e ly. A s l a m s a i d o u t s i d e . I f o u n d N a z e e m .
L a x m i a n d A t u l w e r e a lr e a d y t h e r e . W it h t h e m w a s

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
Duduzane Zuma.

I g r e e t e d th e m a n d w a i t e d w i th

t h e m f o r t h e P r e s i d e n t ia l c o n v o y t o a r r i v e . ”
D o y o u r e c a l l t h e s e e v e n ts ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ve r y c l e a r ly s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : So you are part and parcel of this …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A c tiv i ty, y e s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t , s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : If I may refer you to page 65 paragraph
10

3 0 . 1 2 . I t is r i g h t a t t h e b o t to m .
“ H e s t o o d a t t h e P C R fo r a n o t h e r 1 5 m i n u t e s a n d
t h e n m o v e d t o w a r d s t h e d o o r. L a x m i , A t u l , N a z e e m ,
D u d u z a n e a n d I s a w h i m o ff .”
I ta k e - I ta k e t h a t h i m w a s t h e P r e s i d e n t - t h e t h e n Pr e s i d e n t .
“He said he was happy before he left. Atul assured
h i m t h a t t h e s t a t i o n w o u l d b e r u n a s p e r h is
g u i d a n c e a n d w is h e s .”
D o y o u r e c a l l t h is h a p p e n i n g ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

20

I r e c a ll t h e e v e n t - s e e i n g h i m o ff .

T h a t is

correct. That did happen.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d t h e n t h e r e s t y o u c a n r e c a ll ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o . T h e r e s t I w a s n o t p a r t o f th a t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

A lr i g h t .

N o w l e t m e c o n c l u d e o n t h is

Page 123 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
e v i d e n c e o f M r S u n d a r a m a n d s i m p ly w r a p u p y o u k n o w w h a t a p p e a r s
to

be

his

t e s ti m o n y

at

least

in

as

far

as

it

relates

to

you

M r D u d u z a n e Zu m a .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

W e k n o w a n d y o u c a n t a k e i t fr o m m e

t h a t w h e n M r Zu m a t e s t i fi e d h e d i d t a l k a b o u t t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f a T V
s t a ti o n a n d h is r o le b e f o r e t h e C h a i r a n d w e k n o w t h a t y o u w e r e t h e
s h a r e h o l d e r in M a b e n g e la I n v e s t m e n t . M a b e n g e la c o n n e c te d b u s i n e s s
w i t h G o v e r n m e n t a n d M a b e n g e l a In v e s t m e n t h e l d th e s h a r e s i n I n f i n i ty
10

Media Networks.

W o u l d I a ls o b e c o r r e c t t h a t I n fi n i ty o p e r a te d t h e

channel ANN7?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . I w a s t h e v e h ic l e .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s . N o w t h e c h a n n e l A N N 7 b e n e fi t t e d

t h r o u g h a d v e r ti s e m e n t fr o m G o v e r n m e n t . Yo u c o n f ir m t h a t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

L ik e a n y o t h e r c h a n n e l a r o u n d . Ye s . T h a t is

correct.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s .

M a b e n g e l a w a s p a r t ly o w n e d b y

Te g e t a ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I w il l h a v e to c h e c k t h a t . I a m n o t …
20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : L e t u s c h e c k t h a t . I n t u r n Te g e ta o w n e d
( “ O C H ” ) O p ti m u m C o a l H o l d i n g s ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

O p t i m u m C o a l H o l d i n g s i s t h e h o l d in g

c o m p a n y o f is th e h o ld i n g c o m p a n y o f O p ti m u m C o a l M i n e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t s o u n d s c o r r e c t s ir.

Page 124 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s . O p t i m u m C o a l M i n e s u p p li e d c o a l

to Eskom?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is v e r y c o r r e c t , s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s . A l r i g h t.

Can you now proceed to

d e a l w it h M r B o o y s e n ?
CHAIRPERSON :

W e ll b e f o r e y o u g o t o Mr B o o y s e n .

Mr Zuma you

h a v e r e a d M r S u n d a r a m ’s a ffi d a v it . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I h a v e - I h a v e ta k e n a l o o k y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u h a v e r e a d it ?
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W o u ld y o u a g r e e w it h m e t h a t in t h a t a ffi d a v i t i f
w h a t h e is s a y in g is tr u e t h e n t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t w a s b e i n g b r ie f e d in
very great detail about a number of many matters relating to ANN7?
W o u l d y o u a g r e e o r w o u l d y o u n o t a g r e e w it h t h a t - i f w h a t h e is s a y in g
is t r u e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o r r y. J u s t t o b e c l e a r y o u a r e a s k i n g m e t o t o g iv e a n o p in io n - a s p e c u la t iv e o p i n io n ?
CHAIRPERSON :

W h e t h e r - i f y o u r e a d w h a t h e is s a y i n g y o u w o u l d

t a k e th e v i e w t h a t t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w a s v e r y i n v o lv e d in m a t t e r s
20

r e l a ti n g t o A N N 7 ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is a v e r y tr i c k y q u e s ti o n C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : It ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I d o n o t - I d o n o t h a v e a p r o b l e m a n s w e r in g

but …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : B u t th a t is - y o u a r e a s k in g …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

F o r a v ie w a n d o p i n i o n a s p e c u la t io n w h ic h I

a m n o t c o m f o r t a b l e g iv in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o t s p e c u l a ti o n . I t is - it is s i m p ly w h e n y o u l o o k a t
w h a t Mr S u n d a r a m s a y s …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

They were doing.

w i t h t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t.
10

The meetings they were having

Th e is s u e s t h a t h e s a y s th e y w e r e b e in g

d is c u s s e d a n d it m a y b e t h a t t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t w h e n h e g e ts a
c h a n c e h e w il l s a y t h e r e is n o t h i n g lik e t h a t . T h e r e a r e n o - n o s u c h
m e e ti n g s h a p p e n e d - t h a t h a p p e n e d o r t h e r e w e r e s o m e m e e ti n g s b u t I
w a s n o t i n v o l v e d i n th e k i n d s o f d e t a ils t h a t th is p e r s o n is t a l k i n g
a b o u t.
S o i t m a y b e t h a t t h a t is w h a t I w i ll b e t o ld b u t I a m s i m p ly
s a y in g i f w h a t h e s a y s is tr u e i t s e e m s t o m e t h a t t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t f o r Pr e s i d e n t ’s r o le o r i n v o lv e m e n t i n N 7 - A N N 7 w a s n o t s u p e r fic ia l . I t
is q u i t e - i t w a s q u i te - h e w a s q u ir e in v o lv e d i n i t. S o I a m i n v i ti n g y o u
t o s a y w h e t h e r i f a ll o f t h a t w a s tr u e y o u w o u ld s h a r e t h e s a m e v i e w o r

20

w o u ld y o u s a y n o w h e n I lo o k a t w h a t h e is s a y in g I w o u l d n o t s a y t h e
f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t w a s v e r y i n v o lv e d . I w o u l d s a y s i n c e h i s in v o lv e m e n t
w a s s u p e r fi c i a l .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

C h a i r I s e e y o u p u s h i n g m e t o g iv e a v i e w. I

w i ll g iv e y o u a v i e w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o I w a n t - I w a n t a v i e w, ja .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s , b u t I w o u l d a l s o li k e t o p l a c e i t i f th is

M r S u n d a r a m ’s v e r s i o n o f e v e n ts w a s n o t t r u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Is th e r e a n y o n e e ls e th a t c a n g iv e t h a t s a m e

s p e c u l a ti v e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n y w a y t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
10

I w o u l d h a v e to a g r e e w i t h y o u m o s t - m o s t

d e f in i te ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o - s o - b u t y o u s a y a s f a r a s y o u k n o w th a t - w h a t
h e s a y s is n o t tr u e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o . I a m a n s w e r i n g y o u r q u e s ti o n . I w a s j u s t
p u t t in g …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : P u t ti n g m y v i e w a c r o s s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y. A lr i g h t .

20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A s a - a s a n a lt e r n a t e b u t to a n s w e r y o u r

q u e s t io n s in c e y o u …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A lr i g h t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Yo u - y o u h a v e p u s h e d m e t o d o s o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I w i ll a n s w e r it .

M y v i e w is I w o u ld h a v e t o

Page 127 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
a g r e e w i t h y o u . Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . T h e r e a s o n w h y I a m s i m p ly r a is i n g t h a t i s
t h a t i n p a r t - s o m e w h e r e i n h is a ff id a v i t M r S u n d a r a m s e e m s to - w e l l
h e c e r t a i n ly s a y s th a t th e fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t w a s m u c h m o r e in v o lv e d
w i t h A N N 7 is s u e s t h a n y o u w e r e .

D e s p i t e t h e fa c t t h a t y o u h a d

s h a r e h o l d in g i n A A N 7 . Yo u - y o u d i d - y o u r e m e m b e r th a t p a r t o f h is …
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s , y e s .

I remember that.

I remember that

c le a r ly s ir.
CHAIRPERSON :
10

Ye s , s ir.

Yo u r - y o u r o w n i n v o l v e m e n t in A N N 7 a r e

y o u - I - I t h i n k o u t o f t h e f o u r m e e t i n g s y o u d id s a y t h e r e i s o n l y o n e
that you attended.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON : That he talks about.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O n t h e f a c e o f i t w i t h o u t y o u p u t t in g y o u r i n p u t i n
r e g a r d to t h a t th a t - t h a t s e e m s to g o a l o n g w i t h w h a t h e is s a y i n g .
H e r e is a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e t h e f o r m e r P r e s id e n t a n d A N N 7 p e o p l e h a v e
f o u r m e e ti n g s w it h h i m .

H e i s n o t a s h a r e h o l d e r b u t h e r e is t h e

s h a r e h o l d e r - 3 0 p e r c e n t s h a r e h o ld e r.
20

O u t o f t h o s e fo u r m e e t in g s o n ly o n e t h a t h e a t te n d s b u t o f
c o u r s e t h e r e m a y b e o th e r m e e t in g s t h a t y o u w e r e i n v o l v e d i n th a t
M r S u n d a r a m d o e s n o t ta lk - t a lk a b o u t b u t I j u s t w a n t e d to - t o m e n ti o n
that and just hear whether you have something to say about your - your
o w n l e v e l o f i n v o l v e m e n t o n - i n A N N 7 is s u e s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . I w i ll - I w il l r e s p o n d .

Page 128 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

F ir s t ly h e m e n t i o n e d th a t I w a s p a r t o f a

n u m b e r o f m e e t in g s b u t t h e n h e m e n ti o n s t h a t I d i d n o t c o n tr ib u t e to
a n y o f t h e m e e t in g s .

So he cannot have it both ways.

He needs to

d e c i d e w h e th e r I w a s t h e r e . I w a s a c t iv e o r I w a s n o t t h e r e a n d a s I a m
s a y in g t o - t o th e C o m m i s s i o n is I w a s n o t p a r t o f t h o s e m e e t i n g s .
T h a t is t h e f ir s t p o i n t I w a n t to m a k e a n d C h a i r th e s e c o n d
p o i n t i s b e s i d e s A N N 7 a lo t o f o t h e r c o m p a n ie s t h a t I h a v e - a s
M r M o k o e n a p o in t e d o u t .
10

I was a share holder/director whatever the

c a s e w a s a t t h a t t i m e . T h e r e h a s b e e n a p r e v a i li n g n a r r a ti v e u p u n ti l
t h is

p o in t a b o u t S t a t e

C a p t u r e , c o r r u p ti o n , i n fl u e n c e

o u ts id e

of

G o v e r n m e n t , a p p o i n ti n g o f M i n is t e r s a n d w h a t e v e r e ls e .
N o w I m a d e th e d e c is i o n t o p u l l b a c k a n d n o t t o b e a c t iv e i n in a l o t o f r o l e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : To m y d e tr i m e n t . S o I c o u l d n o t g r o w w i t h m y
company …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d n o t ju s t M r S u n d a r a m . I a m s u r e t h e r e w i ll
20

b e a l o t o f s t a ff …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t w o r k e d in t h e o ff ic e s .

They would have

said then …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

W e h a v e n o t s e e n t h is g e n tl e m a n a r o u n d i n a

Page 129 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
lo n g t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I w o u l d m a k e s o m e - s o m e v is i t s fr o m t i m e t o
ti m e …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: And give my input …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Where I could.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o w t h e p o i n t I a m tr y in g t o g e t to i s i f i t w a s
t h e o th e r w a y a r o u n d …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d I h a d b e e n i n a l l t h e s e m e e t in g s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I had been there …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : D ir e c t in g tr a ffic …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h a t e v e r - a n d w h a t e v e r p u r p o s e I n e e d to b e

20

in t h a t m e e ti n g f o r.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : To d a y I w o u l d b e s i tt i n g h e r e a n d y o u w o u l d b e
a s k in g m e t h e q u e s t i o n o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Yo u h a v e b e e n p l a c e d a t th e s e m e e ti n g s .

Page 130 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

There

is

no

editorial

i n t e r fe r e n c e

fr o m

shareholders.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : W h a t w o u l d I s a y a b o u t t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o I w o u l d r a t h e r b e s i tt i n g a t t h is p o i n t s a y i n g
…
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I a m n o t s u r e w h a t M r S u n d a r a m is t a l k i n g

about …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : B e c a u s e i f i t w a s t h e o th e r w a y a r o u n d .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Yo u w o u l d b e a s k i n g m e a n d y o u w o u l d

a c t u a ll y b e p u t ti n g t o m e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t a s a s h a r e h o ld e r I w a s p a r t o f th e s e

m e e ti n g s a n d I w a s i n t e r fe r i n g e d i t o r i a lly.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

So I have spoken in a roundabout way but I

ju s t w a n t e d t o m a k e th a t p o in t .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

No, no.

I - I t h i n k w h a t y o u h a v e s a id is

i m p o r t a n t b u t le t m e j u s t m a k e s u r e I u n d e r s t a n d i t .

W i th s p e c ia l

r e fe r e n c e t o my q u e s ti o n y o u s e e m t o b e s a y i n g I a m n o t d e n y i n g th a t I

Page 131 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
w a s n o t v e r y i n v o l v e d i n A N N 7 b u t th e r e w a s a r e a s o n f o r i t . I d e c i d e d
t o p u ll b a c k b u t a ls o t h e r e w e r e a n u m b e r o f o t h e r c o m p a n i e s i n w h i c h I
was involved. Is that right?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h a t y o u a r e s a y i n g c o r r e c t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s .

Yo u a r e c o r r e c t .

As - as well as me

h a v i n g t o h a v e li m i te d m y r o l e s a s w e ll .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . J a . T h a t i s w h a t I a m t a lk i n g a b o u t .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . Yo u a r e c o r r e c t . Yo u a r e c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . N o . T h a t - th a t i s i m p o r t a n t b e c a u s e i t is w e w a n t t o h e a r a ll p e r s p e c tiv e s b e c a u s e w i t h o u t a ll t h e p e r s p e c tiv e s
t h i n g s m ig h t s e e m t o b e l o o k in g i n a c e r ta in d ir e c t i o n b u t w h e n h a s a ll
t h e p e r s p e c tiv e s i t is i m p o r ta n t b e c a u s e w h a t y o u a r e s a y in g i s I
d e li b e r a t e ly tr y to l i m i t m y - m y r o le f o r - f o r t h e r e a s o n s th a t y o u h a v e
g iv e n .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you very m uch.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

20

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a n k s C h a ir. M r - M r Z u m a I w a s j u s t
a b o u t t o m o v e n o w t o t h e e v i d e n c e o f M r B o o y s e n . H e t e s ti f ie d b e f o r e
t h is C o m m i s s io n .

H e i n f o r m e d t h e C h a ir t h a t h e j o i n e d th e S o u t h

A fr ic a n P o l ic e i n 1 9 7 6 . It is fo l d e r n u m b e r fo u r.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s a n d h e t o l d t h e C h a ir th a t h e w a s

Page 132 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
p r o m o te d to d i ff e r e n t r a n k s .

I m e a n s t a r ti n g f r o m t h e C o lo n e l ,

B r i g a d ie r a n d M a j o r - G e n e r a l . H e t o ld th e C h a ir th a t y o u w e r e o n c e a
c o m p la i n a n t i n a c r i m i n a l m a t t e r th a t i n v o l v e d Mr I a n E n d r e s c o n c e r n i n g
a f r a u d li n e b e t ti n g s c h e m e . W o u ld t h a t b e c o r r e c t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is i n c o r r e c t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : T h a t is in c o r r e c t ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is - y e s . It is i n c o r r e c t s ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d h o w d id y o u e n c o u n t e r Mr B o o y s e n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I m e t h i m t h r o u g h a m u tu a l fr ie n d o f o u r s .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : A mutual friend?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d u n d e r w h a t c ir c u m s ta n c e s ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : J u s t a n in tr o d u c ti o n .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : J u s t a n i n tr o d u c t io n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M r M o k o e n a . I m is s e d - I m i s s e d th e - t h e
q u e s t io n to w h ic h M r Z u m a a n s w e r e d i t i s n o t c o r r e c t .

I believe the

fir s t q u e s ti o n .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA
20

SC:

He

says

that

to

the

extent

that

M r B o o y s e n s a y s th a t h e w a s o n c e a c o m p l a i n a n t i n a m a t t e r i n v o lv i n g
a f r a u d b e t ti n g s c h e m e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A n d h e s a y s th a t i s i n c o r r e c t …
CHAIRPERSON : Oh.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

But he

a d m i ts

Page 133 of 176

that he

did

meet

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M r B o o y s e n I th i n k u n d e r d i ffe r e n t
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : C ir c u m s t a n c e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s a n d w e ju s t a b o u t t o i n t e r r o g a t e …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e y o u m e t

Mr Booysen. Do - can - can you share with us?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o t h e r e i s th e is s u e t h a t h e is s p e a k i n g a b o u t
10

w h ic h i s n o t m y i s s u e a n d I h a v e d e n ie d i t . Th e r e i s a m u t u a l fr i e n d o f
o u r s t h a t w a s h a n d li n g h i s o w n m a t t e r s a t t h a t ti m e w h ic h r e la t e s to th e
is s u e t h a t y o u j u s t r a is e d w h i c h is n o t m y is s u e a n d t h a t is h o w t h is
w h o le t h i n g a r o s e o f t h e m e e ti n g .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : S o t h is is s u e t h a t h e is te ll in g th e C h a i r
a b o u t is n o t y o u r i s s u e b u t i t is t h e is s u e o f a m u t u a l fr i e n d ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Oh.

S o th a t is h o w y o u m e t .

In those

c ir c u m s ta n c e s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

I n t h o s e c ir c u m s t a n c e s .

S o i t w a s p u r e ly b y

chance …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC: Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d i t w a s j u s t a s o c i a l.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA

SC:

And

w o u ld

I

be

correct

that

L i e u t e n a n t B o t h a fr o m t h e H a w k s i n K w a Z u lu - N a ta l w a s t h e o n e
a p p o i n t e d t o i n v e s ti g a t e t h a t c a s e s ir ?

Page 134 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I do not know about that.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Yo u d o n o t k n o w a b o u t th a t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No.
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Now Mr Booysen …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. B e f o r e t h a t d o y o u h a v e a n y r e c o ll e c ti o n
w h e t h e r m a y b e w h e n t h e m u t u a l fr i e n d la i d t h e c o m p l a i n t o r a s k e d f o r
t h e m a t te r t o b e in v e s ti g a t e d ? Yo u a c c o m p a n ie d h i m a n d t h e - a n d th a t
m a y b e t h a t i s h o w G e n e r a l B o o y s e n mi g h t h a v e th o u g h t b o th o f y o u
10

w e r e c o m p l a i n a n ts in t h a t m a t t e r ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No. I said …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u i d i d n o t ( in t e r v e n e s ) ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

No.

I t h a d a b s o l u te ly n o t h i n g t o d o w it h th a t

…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S p e c if ic s u b j e c t m a tt e r, y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : And you - you know of no reason why he would think
y o u w e r e th e c o m p l a in a n t i n t h a t m a t t e r ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No.
20

CHAIRPERSON : Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : C o n f u s i o n b u t I - I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s , b u t f lo w i n g fr o m w h a t t h e C h a ir w a s
a s k in g y o u . H e s a y s t h a t h e d i d n o t m e e t w i th y o u o n c e b u t o n m a n y
ti m e s w h e n y o u w o u l d in q u i r e a b o u t t h e p r o g r e s s o f th e in v e s t i g a t io n in

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
t h is m a t t e r. Is h e a l s o - h e is - h e is n o t t e l li n g t h e tr u t h ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

W h a t I a m s a y in g i s I m e t h i m a f e w t i m e s -

n u m e r o u s ti m e s i f y o u w a n t t o p u t i t th a t w a y a n d i t w a s p u r e l y o n a
s o c ia l b a s i s .

T h e r e w a s n o d is c u s s i o n o f a n y p e n d in g c a s e s o f a n y

s o r t . I w a s n o t fo ll o w i n g u p a n y c a s e s o f a n y b o d y.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I t - i t w a s j u s t o n a s o c ia l b a s is ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S ir.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
place in Sandton.

H e r e l a y e d o n e s u c h m e e ti n g t h a t t o o k

C a n I r e f e r y o u to p a g e 3 o f h i s s ta t e m e n t a n d h e

s t a te s - Mr C h a ir I a m r e f e r r in g to p a r a g r a p h 1 - 5 - 8 . H e s a y s :
“On

16 August 2015

a

few

days

b e fo r e

I was

in t e r v ie w e d f o r t h e p o s t a s th e H e a d o f t h e H a w k s I
w a s c o n t a c te d b y C a p t a i n D ir k S w a r t fr o m S A P S o n
b e h a l f o f D u d u z a n e Z u m a t h e fo r m e r P r e s id e n t’s
s o n w h o w a n te d to m e e t m e w h ic h I a g r e e d t o .

I

k n e w D u d u z a n e a s a r e s u l t o f a fr a u d in v e s ti g a ti o n
in w h i c h h e w a s a c o r e c o m p l a in a n t - c o m p la i n a n t
20

in a c r i m i n a l m a t t e r. T h e i n v e s ti g a t i o n r e l a te d to a
c o m p la i n t b y D u d u z a n e a n d o n e W i n s t o n I n n e s
a g a in s t I a n A n d r i e s c o n c e r n i n g a fr a u d in a n o n l in e
b e t t in g s c h e m e ( g a m b l i n g ) .

A t t h e ti m e I h a d

a p p o i n t e d L i e u t e n a n t - C o l o n e l M a r t h in u s B o th a fr o m
the

Hawks

in

K w a Z u lu - N a ta l

Page 136 of 176

-

in

KZN

-

to

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
in v e s t i g a t e t h e a l l e g e d fr a u d . I h a d p r e v i o u s ly m e t
D u d u z a n e a f e w t i m e s w h e n h e i n q u ir e d a b o u t th e
progress

in

the

i n v e s t ig a ti o n .

One

of

these

m e e ti n g s t o o k p l a c e in - a t h is o ff ic e i n S a n d to n
w h e n I w a s i n G a u t e n g f o r a m e e t in g .”
I t a k e i t t h a t y o u d is p u t e e v e r y th i n g t h a t h e s a y s i n th a t
p a r a g r a p h e v e n th o u g h w e c a n s e e - w h a t - w h a t e v e r - w h a t y o u a r e
s a y in g to t h e C h a ir i t s e e m e d th a t y o u d i d m e e t w i t h h i m a f e w ti m e s
b u t n o t a s - r e l a te d b y h i m y o u r m e e t i n g s . I t w a s s i m p ly o n s o c i a l - o n
10

s o c ia l b a s is ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

B e f o r e I a n s w e r t h a t . I w i ll a n s w e r th a t . I f I

m a y j u s t a s k a q u e s t i o n . W h a t d o e s c o c o m p la i n a n t m e a n ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

I d o n o t k n o w.

M a y b e w e w i ll a s k

Mr Booysen.
CHAIRPERSON : Well it …
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : A co complainant must be a person that
la u n c h e d a c o m p l a i n t t o g e t h e r w i t h y o u .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y. T h a t is tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I t is - i t i s s o m e b o d y w h o t o g e t h e r w i t h s o m e b o d y
20

e ls e l a y s a c o m p l a i n t.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja. (Intervenes).
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o t h a t d o c u m e n t w o u ld b e a v a i la b le i f I a m

correct.

Page 137 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t d o c u m e n t o r t h a t ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e r e o u g h t - t h e r e - t h e r e o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n a t th e
ti m e . I d o n o t k n o w n o w, b u t th e r e o u g h t t o h a v e b e e n d o c u m e n ts .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Then I think we should pull that document up

then.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t w ill a n s w e r t h a t q u e s t i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d t h e n m o v in g o n t o - I m e a n I t h in k th a t i t i s
- it is c l e a r t h a t w e h a v e m e t a f e w t i m e s . W e h a v e n o t d is p u te d th a t . I
o n c e a g a i n d e n y t h a t I w a s a c o c o m p la i n a n t a n d I w is h t h o s e d o c u m e n t
- th a t - t h a t r e c o r d c o u ld b e p u ll e d u p . A s f o r th e m e e ti n g h a p p e n in g i n
m y S a n d to n o ff ic e s .

I d o n o t r e c a ll .

It could have happened.

It is

p o s s i b le b u t I d o n o t r e c a ll .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON :

I think - I think maybe - maybe I could say that

p r o b a b ly fo r t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s p u r p o s e s i t - it i s n e i t h e r h e r e n o r th e r e
w h e t h e r y o u w e r e a c o c o m p l a i n a n t o r n o t . I th i n k w h a t i s i m p o r t a n t i s
20

you - you had met with him …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : A fe w ti m e s .
CHAIRPERSON : On a number of occasions.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Pr i o r t o th is .

Page 138 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : M a y I h u m b ly d i s a g r e e w i t h y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: I think that is quite a focal point here because
…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h e t h e m e o f t h e - o f t h e m e e t in g s a n d t h e -

t h e s u b s e q u e n t m e e ti n g s …
CHAIRPERSON : Huh-uh.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Is b a s e d o n m e b e i n g a c o c o m p la i n a n t w h ic h I
10

h a v e s a id I a m n o t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: So …
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t - b u t y o u s e e th e - t h e i s s u e i n w h ic h h e s a y s y o u
w e r e a c o - a c o c o m p l a i n a n t mi g h t n o t b e th e ty p e o f i s s u e th a t t h e
C o m m i s s i o n i s r e a l ly l o o k i n g - i t m ig h t n o t b e t h e ty p e o f is s u e t h a t t h e
C o m m i s s i o n is b u s y w i t h y o u k n o w i n t e r m s o f w h a t it h a s t o
in v e s t i g a t e . T h a t is w h a t I a m s a y in g .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .

20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Thank you.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : M a y b e t o t a k e t h a t p o i n t fu r t h e r w i t h t h e
C h a ir.

I f y o u t u r n to p a g e 4 y o u w i ll s e e t h e i m p o r t a n c e o f w h y y o u

w e r e s e n t a 3 . 3 N o ti c e . H e p r o c e e d s a t p a r a g r a p h 1 - 5 - 9 a n d I w i ll r e a d
t h a t t o p a r a g r a p h 1 - 6 - 4 f o r y o u t o r e a c t a t o n c e in th o s e - o n t h o s e
paragraphs. He said that:

Page 139 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
“I met Duduzane at the Sandton Gauteng Stat ion
w h e r e I to o k i t .

H e w a n te d t o d is c u s s h is m a t t e r.

D u d u z a n e w a s d r iv i n g a b la c k R o ll s R o y c e . ”
Can I pause?

D o y o u h a v e a b l a c k R o ll s R o y c e o r d i d y o u

o w n o n e a t s o m e p o i n t?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

N o t a b l a c k R o ll s R o y c e b u t th e r e is a w h i t e

R o ll s R o y c e , s ir.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : Oh a white?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
10

A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : O k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll y o u s a y t h e r e is . A t th e t i m e th a t h e is t a lk i n g
about …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . A t t h e ti m e , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . A t th a t ti m e t h e r e w a s a w h i t e n o t a b l a c k o n e .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : J a . I w a s - I w a s d o i n g w e ll C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :

O k a y. H e - h e j u s t g o t - h e m ig h t h a v e j u s t g o t t h e

colour wrong.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s C h a ir.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : I j u s t h a d t o a s k t h a t q u e s t io n .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC : So that I w as - you - you do have one or
y o u d id o w n o n e ?
“ D u d u z a n e h a d s u g g e s t e d t h a t I g e t in t o t h e v e h ic le

Page 140 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
w i t h h i m . I to l d m y s o n w h o w a s w i t h - w it h m e a t
t h e ti m e t h a t I w o u l d b e d r iv i n g w i th D u d u z a n e a n d
t h a t h e s h o u ld f o ll o w u s . M y s o n fo ll o w e d u s i n h is
o w n v e h ic le .

I t o o k i t th a t w e w e r e g o i n g to h is

o ffic e i n S a n d t o n .
ends.

W e c h a t te d a b o u t o d d s a n d

T h e r e w a s n o d is c u s s i o n a b o u t h is fr a u d

m a t t e r. P r i o r t o o u r a r r i v a l D u d u z a n e h a d m a d e n o
m e n ti o n th a t w e w e r e i n f a c t g o i n g t o t h e G u p t a
c o m p o u n d o r a n y t h i n g r e g a r d i n g m y i n t e r v ie w i n to
10

t h e p o s i ti o n o f N a t i o n a l H e a d o f t h e H a w k s .

The

n e x t m o m e n t w e p u l le d u p a t t h e r e s i d e n c e in
S a n d t o n w h ic h I r e c o g n i s e d - r e c o g n i s e d a s t h e
G u p t a ’s S a x o n w o l d c o m p o u n d .

I a li g h t e d fr o m t h e

v e h ic l e b y w h ic h ti m e m y s o n h a d w a lk e d u p to m e
a n d a s k e d m e w h e th e r w e w e r e t h e r e - w h e t h e r w e
were where he thought we were.
told him that I thought so.

I responded and

A lt h o u g h I w a s c a u g h t

b y s u r p r is e I d e c i d e d t o s e e h o w th i n g s w o u l d
unfold.
20

W e w e r e e s c o r te d b y s e c u r it y g u a r d s a n d

e n t e r e d th e h o u s e w h e r e t h e - w h e r e w e h a n d e d o u r
c e l l p h o n e s o v e r t o th e m b e f o r e e n t e r in g th e lo u n g e .
To n y G u p t a w a s th e o n ly G u p ta b r o th e r p r e s e n t .
There

were

a ls o

house

s ta ff

present

w h ic h

I

g a t h e r e d w e r e fr o m I n d i a w h o s e r v e d u s s o m e li g h t
Asian snacks.

To n y s p o k e t o m y s o n w h o is a n I T

Page 141 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
s p e c i a lis t a n d t o l d h i m i f h e w a n t e d t o g o i n to
b u s i n e s s a v e n t u r e h e s h o u ld s p e a k to t h e m . ”
A n d t h e n e x t p a g e th e l a s t t w o p a r a g r a p h s :
“ T h e r e w e r e n o s i g n i fi c a n t d is c u s s i o n s b u t w h a t I
n e e d to - w h a t I i n d e e d c o n s id e r e d c u r i o u s w a s t h a t
To n y k n e w t h a t I w a s a b o u t t o in t e r v i e w e d a f e w
d a y s la t e r f o r t h e p o s t o f N a ti o n a l H e a d o f t h e
Hawks.

A l t h o u g h I r e c a l l th a t a d a i ly l o c a l - lo c a l

n e w s p a p e r i n K Z N t h e M e r c u r y a t t h e ti m e r e p o r t e d
10

t h a t I h a d a p p l ie d fo r th e p o s t a s N a ti o n a l H e a d o f
t h e H a w k s . To n y - To n y s a i d th a t if I w a s a p p o i n t e d
we should have supper together in Durban.

I did

not know what to make of his st atement but
s u s p e c t e d t h a t h e w a n te d t o c r e a t e t h e i m p r e s s i o n
t h a t - t h a t s h o u l d I b e - s h o u l d I b e a p p o i n te d h e
h a d h a d a h a n d in it a n d t h a t I w o u ld c o n s e q u e n tly
b e in d e b t e d t o h i m .

I w o u l d l ik e t o r e i t e r a t e th a t

To n y d i d n o t s a y t h is d ir e c t ly a n d t h a t t h is - a n d
t h a t it is m e r e ly s p e c u l a ti o n o n m y p a r t . I l a u g h e d
20

a n d s a id t h a t w e c o u ld . D u d u z a n e w h o w a s p r e s e n t
d i d n o t p a r ta k e in t h e c o n v e r s a t io n o t h e r t h a n
d is c u s s in g

g e n e r a li ti e s .

A f te r

h a v in g

had

r e fr e s h m e n t s m y s o n a n d I l e f t . I d i d n o t h e a r fr o m
the Guptas again.

Th is w a s m y o n e a n d o n ly v is i t

t o t h e p r e m is e s .”

Page 142 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A n d I g iv e y o u a c h a n c e o r s h o u l d I a l s o s a y t h a t th is is o n e
o f t h e i n s ta n c e s w h e r e y o u w e r e a ls o p l a c e d i n t h e c r i m e s c e n e . Yo u
w e r e n o t p a r t a n d p a r c e l o f th is m e e ti n g ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Please. Give me a chance please. Give me a
chance please sir to respond.
CHAIRPERSON : I guess crime scene in inverted commas Mr …
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M o k o e n a ?
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

B e c a u s e c e r t a in ly i n r e g a r d to t h is m e e ti n g th e r e

d o e s n o t s e e m t o b e a s u g g e s ti o n o f a n y …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I m p r o p r i e ty.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n y i m p r o p r ie ty o r a n y c r i mi n a l a c ti v i ty.
A D V P H I L L I P M O K O E N A S C : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I f I m a y b e a ll o w e d t o r e s p o n d t h a n k y o u .

B u t t h e n t o s t a r t o ff w it h is lik e I s a i d t h e in t e r a c ti o n s b e t w e e n m y s e lf
and

General

Booysens

were

on

a

s o c ia l

b a s is ,

t h a t ’s

the

the

e n g a g e m e n ts w e h a d , w e d is c u s s e d a l o t o f w e i r d a n d w o n d e r fu l th in g s
20

b u t it w a s o n a s o c i a l b a s i s .
touch.

I h a v e d e t a i le d th a t is t o h o w w e g o t i n

N o w o n t h i s s p e c if ic d a y t h e n w h a t l e a d s t o i t is h e w o u l d

a l w a y s a s k q u e s t io n s a b o u t t h e G u p t a f a m i ly, w h ic h a lo t o f p e o p le a s k ,
fr i e n d s , f a m il y, s t r a n g e r s , a n d h e is o b v i o u s ly a c a r e e r p o li c e m a n s o h e
h a s g o t a l e v e l o f i n q u is i t iv e n e s s o r q u i t e a n i n v e s ti g a t iv e n a t u r e , e v e n
w h e n w e h a d d is c u s s i o n s o n g e n e r a l s t u ff, r a n d o m s t u ff, h e w o u l d

Page 143 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
a l w a y s e n q u i r y fr o m a p o l ic i n g p e r s p e c t iv e . I m e a n t h a t is h i s h is to r y.
S o i n a f e w d is c u s s i o n s p r io r to th is e v e n t f u l d a y h e ’ d r a is e d a
q u e s t io n l ik e h o w a r e t h e g u y s , y o u k n o w w h a t is th e ir s i t u a t i o n , o r
w h a t ’s t h e ir s to r y, l ik e I s a i d t h e u s u a l q u e s ti o n s , a n d I s a id l o o k o n e
d a y i f t h e r e is a n o p p o r t u n i ty I w i ll t a k e y o u to m e e t t h e m , ju s t l ik e I
h a v e t a k e n a lo t o f p e o p l e t o m e e t t h e g u y s , ju s t l ik e I h a v e t a k e n M r
To n y t o m e e t a l o t o f o th e r p e o p l e , fr i e n d s , fa m i ly, j u s t t o g e t a
p e r s p e c t iv e , b e c a u s e a lo t o f p e o p l e d o n ’t h a v e t h a t p e r s p e c ti v e , a n
in t e r - p e r s o n a l e n g a g e m e n t .
10

S o th is l e a d s u s t o th is d a y a n d I m a y b e w r o n g b u t i f m y
m e m o r y s e r v e s m e c o r r e c t th is w o u l d h a v e b e e n a w e e k e n d a n d n o t a
w e e k d a y, s o f o r m e t o – f o r t h e r e t o b e a s u g g e s t io n t h a t w e a r e g o i n g
t o t h e o ff ic e I a m n o t to o s u r e a b o u t t h a t .

B y t h e ti m e w e h a d

a r r a n g e d t o m e e t a t t h e G a u tr a in , if I r e c o l l e c t h e w a s c o m i n g fr o m
e i t h e r M id r a n d o r Pr e to r i a , th e p l a n w a s t o g o t o n u m b e r 5 S a x o n w o l d ,
a n d th a t i s e x a c t ly w h a t w e d i d .
H e a r r iv e d , w e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON : I am sorry to interrupt you.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

Ye s , y e s ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o h e t o o k n e w t h a t th e p la n w a s t o g o t o t h e G u p t a
r e s id e n c e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t w a s th e o n ly p l a n f o r th a t d a y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t w a s th e p l a n .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.

Page 144 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

T h e r e w a s n o t h i n g e ls e , l ik e I s a i d I m a y b e , I

s t a n d t o b e c o r r e c t e d b u t i t w a s d e f in i te ly a w e e k e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

I mean we have met a few times you know and

t h e r e ’s ti m e s w h e r e I h a v e m e t h i m i n Pr e t o r i a .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
m e t i n i n t e r e s ti n g p la c e s .

S o t h e r e is n o i s s u e o f t h e v e n u e s w e h a v e
T h i s s p e c i fi c d a y w a s . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , w a s f o r g o i n g th e r e ?
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Ye s , t h i s w a s t h a t w e h a d a g r e e d , o k a y if y o u

c o m e t h r o u g h I w i ll t a k e y o u t h r o u g h t o m e e t Mr To n y . . . [i n d is t in c t ] I
w o u ld l ik e y o u to m e e t h i m , a n d h e s a i d o k a y if t h a t i s c a s e , w h e t h e r i t
w a s i n q u is i t iv e n e s s , w h e t h e r h e t h o u g h t I w a s jo k i n g I d o n ’ t k n o w b u t
t h a t w a s t h e p la n f o r t h e d a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , y e s .

I in t e r r u p t e d y o u

w h il e

you

were

c o n ti n u i n g .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s , t h a n k y o u C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y c o n ti n u e .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :
20

O k a y, s o t h a t c o v e r s t h a t p o i n t . S o m o v i n g o n

h e is c o r r e c t t h e r e w a s n o d is c u s s i o n a b o u t a n y fr a u d m a t t e r, l ik e th e r e
w a s n o t a n y p r e v i o u s ly.

L e t’s m o v e o n t o p a r a g r a p h 1 6 3 , d e f in i te ly

g e n e r a l d is c u s s i o n s , th e r e w a s s o m e s p e c if ic d is c u s s i o n s w i t h t h e s o n ,
o b v i o u s l y o n h i m b e i n g a n I T s p e c ia li s t a n d o p p o r t u n i ti e s a r o u n d th a t
n a t u r e o f w h a t h e d o e s , t h e u s u a l p l e a s a n tr i e s .

G e t t in g to t h e p o i n t

w h e r e – b e c a u s e w h a t p a r a g r a p h 1 6 3 a c t u a l ly, fo r g iv e m e b u t it d o e s n ’ t

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
make sense to me.

I f y o u r e a d t h e w h o le t h i n g , th e w h o l e p a r a g r a p h i t

t a k e s y o u fr o m a n a c c u s a ti o n o f p r io r k n o w l e d g e t o a H a w k ’s p o s i ti o n
o r p r i o r k n o w l e d g e t o a n i n te r v i e w f o r a H a w k ’s p o s i t io n o r s h o r t l is t .
T h e n it g o e s o n t o s a y t h a t t h is p o p p e d u p i n T h e M e r c u r y a t t h e t i m e
s o i t c o u ld h a v e b e e n p u b l ic k n o w le d g e , t h e n i t w i n d s o ff t o a n
i m p r e s s io n c r e a t i o n o f i n f o r m a ti o n b e i n g k n o w n b e fo r e h a n d a n d t h e n i t
e n d s o ff w i t h a r e i te r a ti o n , a f ir m r e i t e r a t i o n th a t t h e s t a te m e n t w a s n o t
m a d e d ir e c tly.
r e s p o n d to t h a t .
10

I t i s a v e r y c o n fu s i n g p a r a g r a p h t o m e , s o I c a n n o t
It has got a whole host of things that don’t make

s e n s e to m e , b u t w h a t I c a n s a y is t h a t w a s n o t d is c u s s e d a n d th a t w a s
d e f in i te ly n o t t h e is s u e , t h a t is o n p a r a g r a p h 1 6 3 .
Ye s , I th i n k th a t ’s w h a t I c o m m e n t t o r e s p o n d .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , n o w t o s u m – to s u m u p w h a t y o u

h a v e te s ti fi e d i n r e g a r d to th is p a r a g r a p h , I u n d e r s ta n d y o u c o r r e c tly to
say that indeed you did meet him at Gautrain, you did take him to the
Gupta residence, and he did meet a Gupta brother on the day in
q u e s t io n , a n d h a d d is c u s s i o n s y e s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
20

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u k n o w w h e n G e n e r a l B o o y s e n w a s g iv i n g e v i d e n c e
h e r e I t h in k I a s k e d h i m a q u e s ti o n a b o u t t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e tr i p t o th e
G u p t a r e s i d e n c e , b e c a u s e i t d id n o t s e e m t o m e t h a t i t w a s c l e a r w h a t
the purpose was, if you look at what he said happened once he was
t h e r e , b u t y o u s a y t h a t t h e r e w a s a p u r p o s e , is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

Ye s , a n d I w il l r e it e r a te i t i f y o u w i ll a ll o w m e

Page 146 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
to.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , g o a h e a d .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h e p u r p o s e o n t h a t d a y w a s v e r y s p e c i fi c .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

B y t h e ti m e w e a g r e e d t o m e e t u p a t t h e

S a n d t o n G a u tr a i n S t a ti o n w e a ll k n e w w h e r e w e w e r e g o i n g t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A :

T h a t w a s d is c u s s e d p r i o r t o u s g e tt i n g , a n d

t h e d i s c u s s io n w a s p r e c e d e d b y a d is c u s s i o n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

O n e n q u i r i n g a b o u t th e n a t u r e o f th e G u p t a

f a m ily a n d s o o n a n d s o fo r t h , a n d I w o u l d s a y l o o k t h a t ’s m y g u y, ju s t
a s m u c h a s I h a v e a g o o d r e la t io n s h ip w i t h h i m , I w a s s ta r t in g t o b u i l d
a r e la t io n s h i p , I b e li e v e a t l e a s t, w i t h M r B o o y s e n a n d i f t h e t i m e a r is e s
I w o u l d l o v e f o r y o u g u y s t o m e e t a n d h e s a i d n o i t is c o o l, a n d w e w il l
m e e t a n d th a t w a s th a t s p e c i f ic d a y s o t h e p u r p o s e f o r t h e m e e t in g
h a p p e n in g w a s p u r e ly a h e l l o , h o w a r e y o u , i t w a s a m e e t a n d g r e e t ,
t h e r e w a s n o o t h e r s p e c i f ic p u r p o s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o a m I r ig h t i n u n d e r s t a n d in g y o u to b e s a y i n g t h a t
20

in p r e v i o u s d is c u s s i o n s o r d is c u s s i o n i n a p r e v io u s d is c u s s io n h e h a d
e x p r e s s e d a n i n t e r e s t i n m e e t in g t h e G u p ta b r o th e r s , o r a p a r ti c u l a r
G u p t a b r o t h e r s o c ia ll y ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o c ia ll y y e s , t h a t i s c o r r e c t .

CHAIRPERSON : Ja, yes, he had expressed that interest.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s , a ft e r d i s c u s s io n d e f in i te ly.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d u n l ik e – i s it M r H o w e r th a t w e d e a l t w i t h a
w h il e a g o , i n r e s p e c t o f w h o m y o u s a y y o u a r e n o t c l o s e to h i m .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Mr Chauke.

CHAIRPERSON : Oh Mr Chauke.

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n a r e y o u a b le t o s a y

a s a t t h a t ti m e y o u f e lt t h a t t h e t w o o f y o u w e r e c l o s e , h a d a c lo s e
r e l a ti o n s h i p o r n o t?
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

O b v io u s ly w e d o n o t h a v e a l o n g - s ta n d i n g

r e l a ti o n s h i p .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Fr o m t h e in t e r a c ti o n o v e r a p e r i o d o f ti m e

le a d i n g u p t il l t h e n I th i n k w e h a d a v e r y g o o d r e p o r t d e fi n i t e l y, y e s ,
yes, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A n d I h o p e i t i s s t ill t h a t w a y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o i f M r B o o y s e n is w a tc h i n g . . . [i n d i s t i n c t ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll I c a n te ll y o u t h a t w h e n h e g a v e e v i d e n c e h e r e
h e s a i d h e f o u n d y o u t o b e v e r y r e s p e c t fu l a n d s o o n a n d – s o t h a t p a r t
I c a n s a y.
20

S o y o u t o o k h i m to th e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e b e c a u s e h e h a d

e x p r e s s e d a n i n te r e s t in m e e ti n g th e G u p t a f a m i ly.
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A :

L e t m e m a k e i t c le a r, d u e to p r i o r d is c u s s io n s

t h e r e w e r e d is c u s s io n s a r o u n d t h e G u p t a f a m ily, s o i t w a s n o t h i m w h o
d e c i d e d l e t ’s g o m e e t t h e g u y s . A f t e r d is c u s s i o n i t w a s – y o u k n o w I
r a i s e d i t a n d s a i d lo o k i f y o u a r e a s k i n g a l l t h e s e q u e s ti o n s y o u c a n a s k
t h e m d ir e c t ly.

H e s e e m e d t o – y o u k n o w, s o , j a s o a f t e r w a r d s h e is

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
lik e i f t h e r e i s a n o p p o r tu n it y t o I w o u l d h o n o u r t h a t o p p o r tu n i t y I w ill
d o s o . I s a i d o k a y fi n e .

S o th a t d a y is t h e d a y t h a t w e w e n t, w e m e t

u p s p e c i fic a lly t o g o a n d f u l fi l th is e x e r c i s e , fo r h i m to g e t a s e n s e o f
w h o t h i s fa m i ly is , w h e r e th e y li v e , I m e a n i t h a s b e e n a m a j o r t a l k i n g
p o i n t a n d p e o p l e a r e i n q u is i t iv e a b o u t it , s o I f e e l e v e n w i t h h is
b a c k g r o u n d h e t h o u g h t o k a y, l e t m e g o a n d c h e c k i t o u t a n d t h a t is
e x a c tl y w h a t h e d id .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , y o u s e e th e r e a s o n w h y I a m p u t ti n g t h e s e

q u e s t io n s i s t h a t I w a n t to m a k e s u r e t h a t I d o n o t m is r e p r e s e n t w h a t
10

y o u a r e s a y in g .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u g a v e t h e a n s w e r t h a t y o u h a v e j u s t g iv e n
n o w th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t I w a s g e tt i n g w a s th a t y o u w e r e s a y in g th a t i t
w a s a t h i s in s t a n c e t h a t y o u t o o k h i m t o t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e b e c a u s e
h e h a d e x p r e s s e d a n i n te r e s t i n m e e ti n g t h e G u p t a f a m ily, o r o n e o r
m o r e o f t h e m , s o t h a t is w h a t I w a s c h e c k i n g .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s .

C H A I R P E R S O N : W o u l d i t b e c o r r e c t t o p u t i t th a t w a y ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :
20

I f I m a y a n s w e r i t , n o t , i f I m a y ju s t a n s w e r in

t h is w a y.
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s ,

he

seemed

to

have

a

lot

of

q u e s ti o n s

. . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h e r e w e r e q u e s t io n s , th e r e w e r e d i s c u s s i o n s
a n d I s a i d t o h i m t h e s e a r e o p e n p e o p l e . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , I c a n t a k e y o u t h e r e .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

J a , if y o u w o u ld l ik e to m e e t t h e m a t a n y p o i n t

le t m e k n o w, a n d h e c o u l d h a v e s a i d n o , h e s a i d y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : S o i f y o u a r e a s k i n g m e , i f y o u ’r e s a y in g a t h is
in s t a n c e I a m n o t t o o s u r e a b o u t t h a t , b u t t h is is th e w a y i t p a n n e d o u t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , s o i t m a y o r m a y n o t b e a t h is i n s t a n c e b u t th a t
is t h e c o n t e x t i n w h ic h . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :
10

Ye s , t h e r e w a s a b u il d - u p t o i t y e s , c o r r e c t .

H e h a d q u e s t io n s t h a t h e w a s a s k in g a b o u t t h e m t o

you.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

L ik e m a n y o t h e r p e o p l e C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d t h e n f r o m y o u r d i s c u s s io n w i t h h i m i t w a s –
y o u a ll a g r e e d t h a t w h e n t h e r e is a n o p p o r t u n i ty y o u c o u l d t a k e h i m
there.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, n o t h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

B u t h e s e e m e d t o s a y, I m e a n fr o m t h e

p a r a g r a p h th a t y o u h a v e r e a d t h a t w h e n y o u f e t c h e d h i m a t t h e
G a u t r a in h e w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t y o u a r e g o i n g to t a k e h i m t o t h e G u p t a
20

r e s id e n c e .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

N o , th e n th a t is n o t tr u e s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , a n d I m e a n th a t i s a ls o y o u w o u l d

r e c a l l t h a t w e a l s o tr a v e r s e d t h a t q u e s t io n i n g in l i g h t o f M r J o n a s , h e
a ls o s a id t h a t h e d id n o t k n o w t h a t h e w a s g o i n g t o b e ta k e n t o th e
G u p t a r e s id e n c e a n d y o u s a y t h a t is n o t tr u e .

Page 150 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Ye s , th a t ’s w h a t I a m s a y i n g , I m e a n w o u ld i t

m a k e s e n s e o n a r a n d o m w e e k e n d w e d e c id e t o m e e t u p , t o d r i v e a ll
t h e w a y f r o m P r e t o r i a to J o h a n n e s b u r g , a n d m e e t u p a t t h e S a n d to n
G a u t r a in s t a ti o n , th e o ff ic e s a r e c lo s e d o n a S a t u r d a y s o r e a s o n a b ly
y o u c a n n o t e x p e c t m e t o b e t a k i n g y o u t o a n o ffi c e .

It can happen, I

m a y h a v e t h e k e y s in m y p o c k e t , b u t it is a S a tu r d a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , b u t y o u c a n t a k e m e to y o u r

house?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: Ja, 100% .
10

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

A n d n o t t o t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e .

B u t th e s p e c if ic d i s c u s s io n w a s w e a r e

m e e ti n g in J o h a n n e s b u r g , I c a n – if y o u w a n t to m e e t t h e g u y s I c a n
t a k e y o u th r o u g h a n d t h e r e w a s th a t a g r e e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u – i s y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g t h a t h e c a m e a l l t h e
w a y fr o m K w a Z u l u N a ta l f o r t h e p u r p o s e o f t h a t tr i p t o t h e G u p t a
r e s id e n c e o r is t h e p o s i t io n t h a t h e w a s i n G a u t e n g a n d t h e r e w a s a n
o p p o r t u n i ty to m e e t . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : .. . a n d t o g o th e r e a n d th a t is w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g .
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Ye s , I d o n o t w a n t t o p u t o th e r p e o p le ’s

b u s i n e s s in t h e s tr e e t , b u t h e w a s in G a u te n g a t t h a t s p e c i fi c p o i n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

S o m e o f t h e m e e ti n g s th a t w e h a v e h a d h a v e

been in the Gauteng space.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

M o r e s p e c i fi c a ll y P r e t o r i a .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

T h i s g iv e n ti m e h e h o n o u r e d m e a n d h e

g r a c e d m e w i th h is p r e s e n c e i n J o h a n n e s b u r g s o h e m a d e t h e tr i p , a n d
I a p p r e c i a t e d h i m f o r d o i n g t h a t b e c a u s e h e d id n o t h a v e t o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A n d fr o m t h e r e w e w e n t t h r o u g h t o t h e

r e s id e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
10

ADV PHILLIP MOK OENA SC:

M r C h a ir th e t w o t h a t a r e r e m a in i n g i t i s

M r – i t is A d v o c a te R a m a tl h o d i a n d M r M o f e .

Yo u m u s t h a v e r e a d t h e ir

s t a te m e n t . T h e le g a l t e a m t o o k . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y b e f o r e y o u d o t h a t j u s t m a y b e to c o m p l e t e
m a y b e w h a t I a m s a y i n g m ig h t b e k i n d o f o b s e r v a t i o n , s o m e th in g s t h a t
o n e is n o t i n g . O n t h i s o c c a s io n t h e r e is s o m e b o d y t h a t y o u a r e t a k in g
t o t h e G u p t a r e s i d e n c e , th a t p e r s o n – t h e p e r s o n t h a t t h a t p e r s o n m e e ts
a t th e G u p t a r e s id e n c e is M r R a j e s h G u p t a , To n y G u p t a , s o t h o s e a r e
t h e t w o a s p e c ts , t h e t h ir d o n e is t h e o n e t h a t M r M o k o e n a m e n ti o n e d
t h a t w h a t w e h a v e is o n t h e t w o tr ip s , o n t h e t w o v is i ts to th e G u p t a
20

r e s id e n c e , o n e i n v o lv i n g M r J o n a s , t h e o th e r o n e G e n e r a l B o o y s e n ,
b o t h o f t h e m s a y th e y w e r e n o t a w a r e t h a t t h e y w e r e b e i n g t a k e n to t h e
G u p t a r e s i d e n c e , b u t y o u h a v e s a i d a c tu a l ly e a c h o n e o f t h e m k n e w
q u i te w e l l t h a t t h e tr i p w a s g o i n g th e r e . I n t h e c a s e o f M r J o n a s t h a t
w a s d e c i d e d a f te r e v e r y b o d y, a ft e r y o u h a d m e t a t t h e H y a t t H o t e l i n
r e g a r d to G e n e r a l B o o y s e n y o u s a y t h a t – t h e r e m u s t b e a t r i p t o th e

Page 152 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
G u p t a r e s i d e n c e , i t h a d b e e n d is c u s s e d a n d d e c i d e d e v e n b e f o r e y o u
m e t a t t h e G a u tr a i n s ta t io n ?
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

Ye s t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir, I t h i n k i t is – it m a y

n o t b e w e l l k n o w n , i t m a y w e l l k n o w n , I d o n ’ t k n o w, i t w a s p o i n t e d o u t
in t h e c o m p a n y o r g a n o g r a m t h a t M r To n y i s a b u s i n e s s p a r t n e r o f m i n e .
CHAIRPERSON : Sorry?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Mr To n y G u p t a is a b u s in e s s p a r t n e r o f m in e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
10

Ye s , a n d h e is a ls o a v e r y d e a r a n d c lo s e

fr i e n d .
CHAIRPERSON :

Well I was about to check that because I seem to

h a v e h e a r d s o m e w h e r e th a t o u t o f t h e G u p ta b r o th e r s h e w a s t h e o n e
t h a t w a s q u i t e c lo s e t o y o u .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

t h a t i s c o r r e c t , t h e r e a s o n I a m p o i n ti n g th a t

o u t is b e c a u s e I s p e n t a l o t o f ti m e w i th h i m , o n a d a il y b a s is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d i n r e g a r d to h i m w e c a n s a y h e w a s p a r t ic u l a r ly
c lo s e t o y o u ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

M o r e th a n p a r ti c u la r ly c lo s e , t h a t is my g u y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Thank you.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

T h a t ’s y o u r g u y ?

I am just about to

m o v e t o th e s t a te m e n t o f Mr M o f e . T h e l e g a l t e a m o f th e C o m m is s i o n
t o o k t h e v i e w t h a t th e t w o o f t h e m m e n t io n s y o u r n a m e b u t t h e y d o n o t
i m p l ic a t e y o u , a n d . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

Page 153 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h o a r e y o u t a lk i n g a b o u t n o w ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

M r R a m a t lh o d i a n d Mr M o f e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, a lr ig h t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s , h o w e v e r y o u a r e g iv e n a 3 . 1

n o t ic e .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Yo u m i g h t h a v e r e a d t h e ir s t a te m e n t ,

b o t h o f t h e m , I m e a n M r M o f e s i m p ly c o n fi r mi n g w h a t h e w a s t o l d b y M r
R a m a t l h o d i.
10

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Th e n w e c a n s ta y w i t h Mr R a m a t l h o d i,

d o y o u n e e d – d o y o u w is h t o r e a c t t o a n y o f t h e c o n t e n t s o f h is
s t a te m e n t ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

N o I h a v e g o t n o t h i n g t o .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : F o r t h e – I a m s o r r y M r M o k o e n a , fo r t h e s a k e o f t h e
p u b lic a n d t h o s e w a t c h i n g d o y o u w a n t to r e p e a t w h a t t h e y s a y ?
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
it s h o u l d b e 5 I t h i n k .

Ye s C h a ir.

L e t ’s g o t o f o l d e r n u m b e r –

I f y o u g o t o f o l d e r n u m b e r f iv e a n d y o u g o to

p a g e 2 , th e r e le v a n t p o r t i o n s w h e r e y o u r n a m e is m e n ti o n e d a p p e a r s t o
20

be

paragraph 2

to 11 a n d a s r e q u e s t e d b y t h e C h a ir l e t m e

c o n te x t u a l is e t h e m a n d s i m p l y y o u k n o w b y r e a d i n g o n ly t h o s e r e le v a n t
portions.
Paragraph 2 says:
“ F o l l o w in g my a p p o i n t m e n t I r e c e iv e d m a n y c o n g r a t u la t o r y
m e s s a g e s i n c lu d i n g o n e f r o m D u d u z a n e Z u m a .

Page 154 of 176

What was

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
p e c u li a r a b o u t D u d u z a n e ’s m e s s a g e s w a s t h a t h e a s k e d m e
t o m e e t m e a n d c o n v e y h is m e s s a g e p e r s o n a lly.

At the time

I r e s p o n d e d b y s a y i n g I w a s v e r y b u s y i n C a p e To w n a n d th a t
d u r i n g w e e k e n d s I s h o u l d s ti ll b e b u s y b e c a u s e o f m y p o l i ti c a l
a p p o i n t m e n ts .

T h e n a f t e r a fe w m o n t h s I g o t a fr a n tic c a l l

fr o m D u d u z a n e w h o w a s d e m a n d i n g t o m e e t m e . I a r r a n g e d
t o s e e h i m a t S t G e o r g e ’s H o t e l w h e r e w e w e r e h a v i n g a
N a t io n a l Ex e c u ti v e m e e ti n g . I n th a t m e e t i n g h e s a i d t o m e h e
w a s s o r r y t o m e e t m e u n d e r t h o s e c ir c u m s ta n c e s w h e r e h e
10

h a d l o d g e d a c o m p l a in t a g a i n s t m e i n s t e a d o f m e e ti n g m e i n
o r d e r t o c o n g r a tu la t e m e .

He wants to tell me that he had

r e c e i v e d i n fo r m a ti o n fr o m tw o s o u r c e s t h a t r e p o r t e d t h a t I
h a v e b e e n g o i n g a r o u n d b a d - m o u t h in g h i m a n d h is b u s i n e s s
associates,
a c ti v i ti e s .

s a y in g

th a t

they

were

i n v o lv e d

in

criminal

I a s k e d h i m w h o h is s o u r c e s w e r e , h e m e n t io n e d

t w o n a m e s , o n e fr o m I n d i a a n d t h e o th e r fr o m S o u th A f r i c a .
I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h o s e n a m e s b e c a u s e h e p r o m is e d t o
f u r n is h m e w i th t h e ir n a m e s i n w r it i n g . T h a t n e v e r h a p p e n e d .
H e a ls o m e n ti o n e d th a t h e t o ld h is fa t h e r, t h e P r e s id e n t,
20

a b o u t th e s e a ll e g a ti o n s . M y r e s p o n s e w a s t h a t h e g r e w u p i n
fr o n t o f m e , s o I w a s o n e o f h is u n c l e s , a s w e w e r e r e f e r r e d
t o i n t h o s e d a y s b y c h il d r e n i n e x il e .

I went on to say that as

h is u n c l e I d o n o t n e e d t o r u n a r o u n d r e p o r ti n g o n h i m d o i n g
crime.

I would simply summon him and ask him if he was

d o i n g c r i m e a n d i f h e w a s I w o u ld o r d e r h i m t o s t o p o r r e p o r t

Page 155 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
h i m t o th e p o l ic e .

I w e n t t o t e l l h i m th a t I w i ll te ll h is f a th e r

a b o u t o u r c o n v e r s a t io n .

H is r e s p o n s e w a s t o a s k m e t o m e e t

A j a y G u p ta i n o r d e r t o e x p la i n t h e s it u a ti o n t o A ja y G u p ta . I
t o l d h i m I d o n ’ t k n o w A ja y a n d I o w e h i m n o th in g . H e l e f t t h e
m e e ti n g o n th a t n o t e . ”
A n y o f t h e s e fa c ts e m a n a ti n g fr o m th is p a r a g r a p h w h ic h a r e a c c u r a te o r
w h ic h y o u w is h to c o m m e n t o n ?

D id y o u c a ll Mr R a m a t lh o d i , d id y o u

h a v e t h a t e x c h a n g e o f . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :
10

I f I m a y s t a r t fr o m – I a m s o r r y – if I m a y s ta r t

fr o m p o in t n u m b e r t w o , a n d th a t s ta t e s t h a t f o l lo w in g m y a p p o in t m e n t I
r e c e i v e d m a n y c o n g r a t u l a to r y m e s s a g e s i n c lu d in g o n e f r o m m y s e l f , I d o
n o t r e c a ll t h a t b u t t h a t c o u l d b e tr u e .

I w i ll t a k e i t a s t h a t b e in g t h e

c a s e , i t s o u n d s lik e s o m e t h i n g I c o u l d h a v e d o n e .
A s f a r p a r a g r a p h 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 1 0 , 11 I a m n o t s u r e w h a t
h e is ta lk in g a b o u t.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:

Ye s , a n d . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l w h e n y o u s a y y o u a r e n o t s u r e w h a t h e is t a lk i n g
a b o u t a r e y o u s a y i n g y o u h a v e n o r e c o ll e c ti o n o f w h a t h e s a y s y o u s a i d
t o h i m a n d h e s a i d t o y o u o n t h a t o c c a s io n , a r e y o u s a y i n g y o u a r e
20

d e n y i n g t h a t y o u s a id t o h i m w h a t h e s a y s y o u s a i d to h i m , a n d s o o n o r
w h a t i s t h e p o s i ti o n ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

T h e p o s i ti o n C h a ir is th a t I a m d e n y i n g t h e

p o i n t s t h a t I m e n ti o n e d n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

T h is v e r s i o n o f e v e n t s a s p la c e d i n t h is

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
d o c u m e n t d o n o t r e fl e c t t h e r e a l i ty a t t h a t t i m e .
CHAIRPERSON :

B u t d o y o u a d m i t h a v in g m e t w i t h h i m o n th a t

occasion?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

On which occasion?

C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k h e s a y s f ir s t y o u m a d e c a l ls b u t u lt i m a t e ly t h e
t w o o f y o u m e t a t S t G e o r g e ’s H o te l .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

No, no, no.

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u s a y th e r e w a s n o s u c h m e e ti n g ?
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :
10

T h e r e w a s n o s u c h m e e ti n g , t h e o n l y ti m e s I

h a v e m e t h i m h a v e b e e n i n p a s s in g , t h e r e h a s b e e n n o f o r m a l s it - d o w n s
o r g e t to g e th e r s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d a r e y o u s u r e a b o u t t h a t, b e c a u s e i t m i g h t h a v e

b e e n q u i t e a fe w y e a r s b a c k , i t i s i m p o r t a n t fo r y o u t o r e f l e c t i n c a s e
m a y b e i t is tr u e , y o u h a v e fo r g o t te n o r a r e y o u q u i t e s u r e th a t it n e v e r
h a p p e n e d , t h a t m e e ti n g n e v e r h a p p e n e d ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Ye s I a m q u i t e s u r e , I m e a n h e is d e t a ili n g a

lo t o f e v e n ts th a t h a v e h a p p e n e d , t h a t h a p p e n e d in th a t t i m e fr a m e , a n d
n o n e o f t h a t is r e f l e c ti v e to t h a t s o m e m e e ti n g h i m a t S t G e o r g e ’s
H o t e l t o d is c u s s t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r t h a t h e is p l a c i n g f o r t h , b e c a u s e
20

t h a t i s w h a t t h e s e p a r a g r a p h s a r e a b o u t , is e n t ir e ly n o t tr u e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , is i t p o s s i b l e th a t t h e m e e ti n g a n d th e d i s c u s s io n
did happen but he might have got the venue wrong when he says St
G e o r g e ’s H o t e l , m a y b e i t h a p p e n e d e ls e w h e r e ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

A s I a m s a y in g a n y fo r m a l s it t in g w i t h M i n i s te r

R a m a t l h o d i h a s n e v e r h a p p e n e d , w h e t h e r a t S t G e o r g e ’s o r a n y w h e r e

Page 157 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
e ls e , u n le s s I h a v e s ta t e d I h a v e b u m p e d in t o h i m in a n u m b e r o f
p l a c e s b u t t h a t h a s b e e n in p a s s in g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : M m m , w e ll I d o n o t k n o w w h e th e r y o u w o u l d c a l l t h i s ,
t h e m e e ti n g t h a t h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t , a f o r m a l m e e ti n g , b u t i n o t h e r
w o r d s y o u s a y t h a t y o u h a v e n o t a t a n y s t a g e i n th e p a s t e v e r a c c u s e d
him or complained to him that you heard that he was bad -mouthing you
o r y o u r c o m p a n ie s a n d s o o n , y o u h a v e n e v e r h a d a n y d is c u s s i o n a lo n g
t h o s e li n e s w i th h i m ?
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :
10

N o , I h a v e n ’t h a d t h a t d is c u s s i o n w i th h i m

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON : Mmm.

Ye s o k a y.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

S o a ll t h e s e d e t a i ls t h a t h e is p u t t in g

fr o m t h e s e p a r a g r a p h s h e i s s i m p ly i m a g i n in g th e m , t h e y n e v e r
happened?
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

M o r e th a n t h a t i t is a n e n v ir o n m e n t a l is s u e

b e c a u s e n o w w e h a v e s p e n t a w h o l e p a g e p r i n ti n g a w h o l e b u n c h o f
s t u ff t h a t s h o u l d n o t b e h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC:
20

N o w i f y o u t u r n t o p a g e – to f o ld e r

number 6.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s s ir.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
CHAIRPERSON :

P a r a g r a p h 4 , . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]

I a m s o r r y, t h e p a r a g r a p h s th a t y o u s a i d y o u d o n ’ t

k n o w w h a t h e is ta lk in g a b o u t d id t h e y i n c l u d e p a r a g r a p h 11 , I’ m s o r r y ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s t h e y d o .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y d id ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s , I r e a d it C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y, o k a y, t h a n k y o u .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I f y o u g o t o t h e n e x t f o l d e r, t h a t is t h e

s t a te m e n t o f M r M o f e , a n d if y o u t u r n t o p a g e 5 , p a r a g r a p h 4 h e is n o w
r e l a ti n g t o th e C h a ir w h a t y o u n o w h a p p e n e d i n r e la t io n to y o u a s
s t a te d b y Mr R a m a tl h o d i . H e s a y s t h a t :
“ F o r m e r M in is t e r R a m a tl h o d i in f o r m e d m e t h a t Mr D u d u z a n e
Z u m a c a l le d m e a n d w a n te d to m e e t h i m fo r t h e p u r p o s e o f
10

w h ic h w a s to c o n g r a tu la t e h i m o n h i s a p p o in t m e n t a s M i n is t e r
M i n e r a l R e s o u r c e s . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d a t e s s i n c e it w a s
n o t e s s e n ti a l t h a t I r e c o r d i t. ”
A n d t h a t is y o u k n o w t h e e s s e n c e o f Mr M o fe s i m p l y c o n fir m i n g w h a t h e
w a s t o ld b y M r R a m a tl h o d i I a m s u r e t h a t i s t h e r e a n y th i n g t o r e a c t t o ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

N o I c a n n o t r e a c t o n t h is p o i n t.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s l a s t ly M r C h a ir I j u s t w a n t M r Z u m a

t o c o n fi r m i f y o u g o to f o l d e r n u m b e r s e v e n . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e w e g o t o n u m b e r s e v e n g o in g b a c k t o w h a t Mr
R a m a t l h o d i s a i d M r Z u m a . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

F o l d e r f iv e ?

C H A I R P E R S O N : G o in g b a c k t o f o l d e r f iv e a n d I a m l o o k i n g p a r tic u l a r ly
a t p a r a g r a p h 11 , s o I a m b e a r in g in m i n d th a t y o u s a y t h e r e w a s n o
s u c h d is c u s s i o n – t h e d i s c u s s io n h e i s t a lk i n g a b o u t n e v e r h a p p e n e d
b e t w e e n t h e t w o o f y o u , I b e a r t h a t i n m i n d , b u t i f o n e lo o k s a t w h a t h e
s a y s , if t h a t d is c u s s i o n d id t a k e p la c e i t s e e m s th a t o n e o f t h e t h in g s –

Page 159 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
o n e o f t h e t h i n g s y o u w a n t e d t o d o in p a r a g r a p h 11 w a s t o m e e t – to
g e t t w o p e o p le , t h a t i s h i m s e l f a n d M r A j a y G u p ta to m e e t b u t t o
d is c u s s m a y b e r u m o u r s o f b a d - m o u th i n g a n d s o o n a n d I g o b a c k to M r
J o n a s , y o u h a v e M r H l o n g w a n a , y o u g e t t o k n o w th a t th e r e a r e r u m o u r s
t h a t M r J o n a s i s b l a c k m a i li n g , w a s b l a c k m a i li n g M r H l o n g w a n a a n d t h e n
y o u w a n t to b r i n g t h e m to g e th e r to r e s o lv e th a t , i t s e e m s t h a t M r
R a m a t l h o d i i f w h a t h e is s a y in g is tr u e i s c o m i n g u p w it h a s i t u a t io n
where you have become aware of rumours of him bad -mouthing your
c o m p a n i e s a n d I g u e s s M r A ja y G u p t a a s w e ll a n d y o u w a n t to g e t t h e m
10

t o m e e t to d i s c u s s t h e m a t t e r, is t h a t r ig h t , y o u u n d e r s ta n d t h a t?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I s e e y o u r p o in t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : If h i s v e r s io n i s c o r r e c t.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s , y e s , a n d t h a t .. . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u s a y i t is n o t c o r r e c t .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

Th a t i s n o t c o r r e c t a n d i t f i ts in t o t h e n a r r a ti v e

of course.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

W h ic h i s . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , o k a y.
20

M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

W h ic h i s t o o n e b e i n g , m y s e l f b e i n g a n

o r g a n i s e r, a c o n d u i t t o m e e t in g s a n d in f lu e n c i n g w h a te v e r e ls e i t i s a n d
t h e s e c o n d p o i n t b e in g I a m a l w a y s t h e r e tr y i n g t o p u t p e o p l e to g e th e r
t o r e s o l v e y o u k n o w is s u e s th a t a r e n o n - i s s u e s v i a r u m o u r s i n t h e
a t m o s p h e r e , s o I t a k e y o u r p o i n t C h a ir, a n d w h e r e i t c o m e s fr o m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , o k a y, th a n k y o u .

Page 160 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

N o w f o l d e r n u m b e r s e v e n , j u s t fo r y o u

t o c o n f ir m y o u s e e t h a t th e f ir s t d ia g r a m i t is h a v in g a f a c e r i g h t o n t h e
c e n tr e f o l d , c a n y o u s e e t h a t a n d th e r e a r e a n u m b e r o f e n t it i e s , I h a v e
g o n e t h r o u g h th e m , I j u s t w a n t y o u t o c o n f ir m w h e t h e r w e r e y o u t h e
d ir e c t o r o r h a v e y o u a n y s ta k e i n t h o s e c o m p a n i e s , i f y o u w a n t y o u c a n
ti c k th e m o n e b y o n e o r j u s t ta k e u s t h r o u g h .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

I f I m a y m a k e a r e q u e s t , b e c a u s e o b v io u s ly I

w i ll n e e d t o c h e c k , a l o t h a s c h a n g e d . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A :

O v e r a p e r i o d o f ti m e , s o I d o n ’ t w a n t t o g iv e

t h e w r o n g i n f o r m a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

L o o k in g a t s o m e o f th e s e c o m p a n i e s y e s I

h a v e b e e n i n v o lv e d , s o m e o f t h e m I a m n o t t o o s u r e w h a t th e s i tu a ti o n
is , s o fa r I c a n r e q u e s t t h a t i f I – w h a t e v e r q u e s ti o n is b e i n g r a is e d I
c a n p o i n t e d ly g o th r o u g h o n e b y o n e a n d I c a n s u b m i t i t t o t h e
C o m m i s s i o n a s s o o n a s p o s s ib l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
20

B e c a u s e I w o n ’ t b e t o o s u r e a t th is p o in t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON : That should not be a problem, so in other words you
w a n t t o c h e c k b e fo r e y o u g i v e a n y a n s w e r i n r e g a r d to e a c h o f t h e
c o m p a n i e s , b e c a u s e th e r e a r e t o o m a n y o f th e m .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

E v e r y t h i n g a c ti v e n o t a c t iv e , s h a r e r e g is t e r

t h e w h o le t h i n g .

Page 161 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
CHAIRPERSON : Ja, yes.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Ye s s ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a t s h o u ld n o t b e a p r o b l e m .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Thank you.

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

I f y o u c a n a l s o d o t h e s a m e i n r e la t io n

t o M a b a n g e la .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I w il l d o th a t , I w i ll d o t h a t .

ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

C h a ir t h a t c o n c l u d e s t h e q u e s ti o n i n g f o r

M r Zu m a .
10

CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s , th e r e a r e t w o w a y s in w h ic h t h is c a n b e d o n e ,

o n e o b v i o u s o n e is f o r y o u t o s u b m it a n a ffi d a v i t i n w h ic h y o u e x p la in
w h a t th e p o s i ti o n w a s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

O k a y.

C H A I R P E R S O N : I d id n o t a p p ly m y m i n d t o y o u r q u e s t io n M r M o k o e n a
w h e t h e r y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t n o w o r y o u w e r e ta lk in g a b o u t a t a
p a r t ic u l a r ti m e , s o w h e n h e lo o k s h e n e e d s t o b e a b l e t o s a y in th is o n e
I h a v e b e e n a s h a r e h o l d e r o r d ir e c t o r fr o m t h a t t i m e u p t o n o w, s o is
t h e r e a t i m e fr a m e th a t h e . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :
20

N o , h e . . . [i n d is ti n c t ] j u s t l o o k a t t h e

c o m p a n y a n d w h e t h e r h e k n o w s t h a t a t s o m e p o in t h e w a s a d ir e c t o r
a n d h e c a n g iv e u s t h e ti m e li n e s o f it y e s .
CHAIRPERSON : Ja, ja.
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

T h a t w ill q u i t e h e l p .

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , t h a t c a n b e d o n e a n d d o y o u t h in k y o u w o u l d n e e d
m o r e th a n s e v e n d a y s t o . . . [i n t e r v e n e s ]

Page 162 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:
CHAIRPERSON :

N o , n o , m o s t d e f i n i t e ly n o t C h a ir.

J a , s o le t ’s s a y t o d a y i s M o n d a y i f a t a l l p o s s i b l e i f

t h a t a ff id a v i t c o u l d b e d e l iv e r e d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n n o t l a t e r t h a n
Monday next week.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

W i ll d o C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , o k a y, a lr i g h t .
ADV PHILLIP MOKOENA SC :

Yo u a r e d o n e ?

I a m d o n e C h a ir.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. B e f o r e I r e l e a s e o r a l l o w y o u r c o u n s e l t o s a y
s o m e t h i n g I j u s t w a n t t o a s k o n e o r t w o q u e s t i o n s g o i n g b a c k t o Mr
10

J o n a s a n d th e m e e t in g i n t h e G u p t a r e s id e n c e .

Mr Jonas said that

a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s h e s a i d t h a t t h e G u p ta b r o t h e r w h o w a s i n t h e
m e e ti n g to ld h i m t h a t I t h i n k t o l d h i m t h a t t h e y w o u l d m a k e h i m r ic h o r
h e w o u l d b e r ic h o r s o m e t h i n g to t h a t e ffe c t a n d s a id t h a t – s a i d
s o m e t h i n g a l o n g th e li n e s t h a t y o u h a d b e c o m e a b il li o n a ir e o r t h e y h a d
m a d e y o u a b il li o n a ir e , I a m n o t c h e c k in g n o w t h e e x a c t w o r d i n g , a n d
t h a t y o u – I th in k h e s a i d t h e y s a id to h i m y o u h a d b e e n a b l e to b u y a
house in Dubai at that time.

N o w o f c o u r s e th e q u e s t io n t h a t

i m m e d i a t e ly a r is e s w o u l d b e in c a s e t h o s e t h in g s a r e f a c t u a l ly c o r r e c t
h o w w o u l d M r J o n a s k n o w t h e m o r w e r e t h e y p u b l ic ly, w e r e t h e y
20

in f o r m a ti o n t h a t w a s p u b l ic l y a v a i l a b le , s o I ju s t w a n t t o r a is e th a t
b e c a u s e i t is in m y m i n d a s w e ll . I d o n ’ t k n o w if y o u a r e a b l e t o s a y
a n y th in g ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA :

M y o n ly c o m m e n t a t t h i s p o i n t is I a m n o t s u r e

w h e r e y o u w o u l d h a v e g o t t h a t i n fo r m a t i o n fr o m , b u t t h e r e h a s b e e n a
g r e a t d e a l o f p u b lic i ty a r o u n d my f in a n c ia l s ta t u s , I m e a n i t is n o t

Page 163 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
s e c r e t , I m e a n th a t i s o n e o f th e r e a s o n s I a m s i tt i n g h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s s o . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
M R D U D U Z A N E ZU M A :

A n d th a t is f o r t h e c l a i m s th a t I h a v e b e e n

m a d e th is w e a l t h y p e r s o n a n d th e n s e c o n d ly is p r o p e r ty in D u b a i , t h a t
h a s a ls o b e e n – I a m n o t s u r e i f y o u h a v e s e e n i t o r n o t , b u t
u n f o r t u n a t e ly I h a v e , i t h a s b e e n w e l l p u b l i c is e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U ZA N E Z U M A :

In the media space so I think those ideas that

h a v e m a d e th e r o u n d s o v e r t h e p a s t f e w y e a r s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t p a r t o f m y q u e s ti o n w o u ld b e w h e th e r le a v in g o u t
w h a t t h e p o s i t io n is n o w o f w h a t is p u b li c ly a v a i la b le w h e t h e r a t t h a t
ti m e t h a t w a s p u b l ic ly .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

L ik e I s a i d I a m n o t s u r e .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u a r e n o t s u r e .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

I am not sure.

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, o k a y, t h a n k y o u .

Th a n k y o u . I t h i n k c o u n s e l

w a n ts t o s a y s o m e th i n g ?
ADV PIET LOUW:

Ye s C h a ir I w o u l d h a v e t h o u g h t t h a t w e h a v e r ig h t

o f r e - e x a m i n a t i o n ju s t s h o r tl y, I h a v e g o t a b o u t s e v e n p o i n ts .
20

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

S o r r y, s o r r y, s o r r y to d o th is a g a in t o

e v e r y b o d y b u t a m I t h e o n ly o n e w h o n e e d s to u s e t h e b a t h r o o m i n t h is
room?
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

If w e m a y ta k e a c o m f o r t b r e a k .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is a lr i g h t , I w a n te d to s a y t o y o u e a r l i e r o n

Page 164 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
y o u a s k e d f o r a c o m f o r t b r e a k b u t I w a n te d t o s a y t h e C h a ir p e r s o n
n e e d s to b e a u fa i t w it h a ll t h e te r m in o l o g y b e c a u s e s o m e t i m e s i t is
c o m f o r t b r e a k , s o m e ti m e s i t is a n o p p o r t u n i ty t o w a s h h a n d s . O k a y w e
a r e a t t w e n ty to fo u r. W e w e r e g o i n g t o , w e n o r m a l ly s to p a t f o u r b u t
s o m e t i m e s w h e n i t is n e c e s s a r y w e g o b e y o n d t h a t . W e d o h a v e s o m e
w i t n e s s e s t o m o r r o w b u t th e y a r e s h o r t s o d e p e n d in g o n h o w m u c h t i m e
y o u n e e d I j u s t w a n t t o m e n ti o n th a t s u b j e c t t o e v e r y b o d y b e i n g
a g r e e a b l e t h e r e is a n o p p o r t u n i ty o f f in is h i n g t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g .
ADV PIET LOUW:
10

Mr C h a ir w e u n d e r s to o d in fa c t t h a t w e w e r e g o i n g

t o b e h e r e fo r t w o d a y s a n d t h a t – w e h a v e a d i ff e r e n c e o n o u r s i d e o f
t h e f e n c e , w e u n d e r s to o d t w o d a y s a n d o u r c o l le a g u e u n d e r s t o o d o n e
d a y.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l I c a n s a y t h a t c e r t a i n ly m y c o n t e m p la t io n w a s

t h a t w e s h o u ld b e a b le t o fi n is h w i th h i m i n o n e d a y b u t t h a t s h o u l d w e
n o t f in is h w e w o u l d c o n ti n u e t h e fo ll o w i n g d a y b e f o r e o th e r w it n e s s e s ,
b u t a s t h i n g s s ta n d y o u k n o w M r M o k o e n a h a s n o f u r t h e r q u e s t io n s , i f
w e – t h e r e is r o o m f o r u s t o tr y a n d f in is h , th e r e is r o o m f o r u s s u b j e c t
t o w h a t Mr H e ll e n s m ig h t h a v e t o s a y t h e r e is r o o m f o r u s t o f in is h
tomorrow morning.
20

ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Mr C h a i r m a n m a y I m a k e a s u g g e s ti o n s , n o

fi n g e r s p o i n te d , w e t h o u g h t i t w a s o n e d a y, t o m o r r o w is d i ff ic u l t f o r m e ,
I h a v e a b o u t f iv e a r e a s t o c o v e r w h i c h I d o n ’ t b e l i e v e w i ll ta k e m o r e
t h a n te n to t w e lv e m in u t e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

S o i f I c o u l d g o b e fo r e M r L o u w I w o u ld f in is h

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
t o d a y a n d i f Mr L o u w n e e d s t o r u n i n t o t o m o r r o w t h e n h e c a n d o t h a t
a n d I d o n ’t h a v e t o b e h e r e b e c a u s e h e is d e a l in g w i th J o n a s a n d I a m
n o t in v o lv e d w i t h J o n a s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , I d o n ’ t h a v e p r o b l e m w it h t h a t , i f h e h a s n o
p r o b le m w i t h t h a t , y e s .
O k a y t h e n is th a t f i n e w i t h y o u , w o u ld t h a t b e f in e w i t h y o u ?
ADV PIET LOUW:

T h a t is e x c e ll e n t t h a n k y o u .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Th a t w il l b e f in e , o k a y, s o I t h i n k w e m u s t th e n t a k e
t h e c o m f o r t b r e a k a n d th e n c o m e b a c k a n d th e n M r H e l l e n s w i ll th e n
10

h a v e a c h a n c e to r e - e x a m i n e a n d t h e n w h e n w e fi n i s h t h e n m a y b e w e
c a n a d j o u r n t o to m o r r o w m o r n i n g .
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Thank you.

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e a r e n e a r ly a t q u a r t e r f o u r, le t u s j u s t a d j o u r n u n ti l
f o u r o ’ c l o c k , is th a t a lr ig h t ?
REGISTRAR:

O k a y, w e a d j o u r n .

A ll r is e .

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S
I N Q U I RY R E S U M E S
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r H e l l e n s y o u m a y p r o c e e d .
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : T h a n k y o u Mr C h a ir m a n . M r Zu m a y o u w i ll h a v e
20

h e a r d t h e p h r a s e o n t h e s c e n e o f th e c r i m e a f e w t i m e s . N o w n o o n e i s
a c t u a ll y s u g g e s ti n g I t h i n k t h a t a c r i m e w a s c o m m i t t e d b u t t h e y u s in g
t h e p h r a s e i n in v e r t e d c o m m a s to s a y a t a s i g n i fi c a n t m o m e n t y o u w e r e
t h e r e a n d y e t a t a s ig n if ic a n t m o m e n t a g a i n y o u w e r e t h e r e a n d w h a t is
s o u g h t t o b e p a i n t e d I t h in k i s a p a t t e r n w h ic h is u n d e n i a b l y s o m e t h i n g
t h a t m u s t b e q u e s ti o n e d a n d is o m i n o u s .

Page 166 of 176

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
D o y o u u n d e r s t a n d t h a t t h a t in m y s u b m is s io n i s t h e - t h e
t h e m e o f t h o s e q u e s ti o n s ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I u n d e r s ta n d s ir.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

N o w t o t e s t w h e t h e r y o u a c tu a lly w e r e a t th e

p l a c e s t h a t p e o p l e s a y y o u w e r e a n d d o in g o r s a y i n g w h a t th e y s a y y o u
w e r e d o i n g o r s a y in g i t w o u l d a p p e a r t o m e th a t th is C o m m i s s i o n i s - i t
is i n c u m b e n t o n t h is C o m m i s s io n t o i n v e s ti g a te w h e t h e r t h e r e c o u l d
p o s s i b ly b e a n y tr u t h b e h i n d t h a t w h ic h is b e i n g d e s c r i b e d b y - b y th e
witness.
D o y o u h a v e c o m m e n t ? T h a t is a l e a d i n g q u e s t io n I b e g y o u r

10
pardon.

MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

N o th a t is - th a t is t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s d u t y I

b e li e v e ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Now

le t

us

take

a

concrete

example.

M r D u k w a n a is - s a id t h a t s o m e o n e a t S a x o n w o l d s a i d t h a t y o u w e r e
g e t t in g m o n e y fr o m a m i n e i n J a g e r s fo n te in a n d th is w a s a g o o d
in d i c a t io n t h a t i t - i t is s u g g e s t e d t h a t th e r e w o u l d b e s o m e t h in g in i t
f o r Mr D u k w a n a m o n e y w is e i f h e a ls o c l i m b e d in t o th is e ffo r t w i th
M r M a g a s h u l e - M a g a s h u le - t o - t o m a k e m o n e y.
20

I c a n g i v e th e a p p r o p r ia t e s e c t i o n b u t w e a ll k n o w w h a t w e
a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t . D o y o u r e m e m b e r t h a t e v id e n c e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I d o s ir.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Do

you have

a n y i n te r e s t in

J a g e r s fo n t e i n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o . I d o n o t s ir.

Page 167 of 176

a

m in e i n

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Do you have any knowledge of a mine in

J a g e r s fo n t e i n t h a t y o u c o u l d p o s s ib ly b e s a i d t o b e r e c e i v i n g m o n e y
fr o m ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o s ir.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

D o th e G u p t a s w i t h w h o m y o u a r e n e g a t iv e ly

li n k e d h a v e a m i n e in J a g e r s f o n t e i n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o s ir.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : W o u ld y o u in v i t e t h is C o m m i s s i o n t o in v e s ti g a t e
w h a t mi n e s th e r e a r e i n J a g e r s f o n t e i n to e s t a b li s h w h e th e r i t w o u l d b e
10

r e m o t e ly p o s s ib ly f o r y o u t o g e t m o n e y fr o m a m i n e in J a g e r s f o n t e i n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A s I m e n ti o n e d e a r li e r t h a t I t h o u g h t th a t t h e y t h e y h a d d o n e . T h e y c l e a r ly h a d n o t b u t I d e fi n i t e l y i n v i te th e m t o d o
so.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

N o w i t w o u l d s e e m e x p lic a b l e th a t i f y o u w e r e

n o t g e t t in g m o n e y fr o m a m i n e in J a g e r s fo n t e i n a n d t h is w a s a
p o r t e n to u s o r o m in o u s a ll e g a ti o n m a d e b y a w it n e s s l e d b e f o r e t h i s
C o m m i s s i o n a n d b e f o r e th e p u b li c th a t t h a t in v e s ti g a t io n a s t o t h e
p o s s i b il it y e v e n o f y o u r e c e iv i n g m o n e y fr o m a J a g e r s fo n t e i n m i n e h a d
n o t in f a c t b e e n in v e s ti g a t e d . W o u ld y o u a g r e e ?
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a g r e e s ir.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

N o w t o c o n c l u d e o n M r D u k w a n a i f i t i s fo u n d

t h a t t h e r e i s n o t th e r e m o t e s t p o s s i b i li ty o f y o u r e c e i v i n g m o n e y fr o m
t h a t s o u r c e t h e n i t w o u l d a p p e a r o u t l a n d is h t h a t a n y o n e w o u l d m a k e
s u c h a s u g g e s t i o n a n d th e n i t w o u l d b e a r o n w h e t h e r Mr D u k w a n a is
t a lk in g th e tr u t h a t a l l a s t o y o u r p r e s e n c e a t a m e e t in g w h e r e y o u s a y

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
you were not present.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t w o u l d b e c o r r e c t s ir.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

What

is

your

a t ti t u d e

fi n a l ly

about

th e

in v e s t i g a t io n in t o t h e J a g e r s f o n te in m o n e y ? D o y o u in v i t e i t ? D o y o u
ask for it?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : As I s a i d e a r l ie r o n i t i s - i t is a p o in t t h a t I h a d
raised and with all due respect to the Commission.

I a m s l ig h tl y

d is a p p o in t e d th a t it w a s n o t lo o k e d i n t o b u t w e a r e s it t in g h e r e to d a y
a n d i f t h e r e i s a p o s s i b i li ty o f th a t b e i n g r e v is i t e d t h e C h a ir d i d m a k e
10

h is c o m m e n t s , j a .
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : M r Z u m a I h a v e n o t ic e d y o u a r e v e r y p o li t e . Yo u
s a y I a m v e r y d i s a p p o i n t e d . Yo u s a y I d o n o t k n o w w h a t h e is t a lk in g
a b o u t a n d w h e n y o u a r e a s k e d m o r e c l o s e ly w h a t d o y o u m e a n b y t h a t .
Yo u s a y I d e n y i t . I t a k e i t th a t i s y o u r p o li t e n e s s c o m i n g t h r o u g h ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I b e l i e v e s o . Ye s s ir.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : J a . N o w l e t u s j u s t t a lk a b o u t M r B o o y s e n . T h e
C h a ir p e r s o n s a i d w e ll t h e is s u e is n o t w h e th e r y o u w e r e a c o
c o m p la i n a n t l e a d in g t o y o u r a s s o c i a ti o n w it h Mr B o o y s e n .

Th e f a c t i s

t h e r e w a s a n a s s o c i a ti o n a n d y o u w e n t t o t h e G u p t a h o u s e .
20

Yo u

y o u r s e l f a s k e d t h e q u e s ti o n b u t d o t h e s e d o c u m e n t s s ti ll e x i s t.
Can it not be established whether I was co complainant in a
m a t t e r b e i n g in v e s t i g a t e d b y L ie u t e n a n t B o th a i n K Z N .

Do you invite

s u c h a n in v e s t i g a t io n ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I m o s t d e f in i te ly d o s ir.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

A n d i f i t is f o u n d t h a t y o u a r e n o t a c o

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
c o m p la i n a n t i n t h e m a t t e r t h a t w o u l d s u g g e s t t h a t M r B o o y s e n is
c o m p le t e l y m is ta k e n o r n o t h o n e s t a b o u t h o w y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h h i m
arose.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s . T h a t w il l b e c o r r e c t s ir.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : W h a t p o s s i b le r e a s o n w o u l d t h e r e b e fo r h i m to
b e n o t fr a n k - n o t h o n e s t o r e v e n m is t a k e n a b o u t h is r e l a ti o n s h i p w i t h
you and how it arose?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I d o n o t k n o w.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : B u t i f t h e b a c k g r o u n d w a s n o t th a t y o u w e r e c o
10

c o m p la i n a n t t h a t h e c a m e t o b e t a lk i n g t o b u t a s a r e s u l t o f a fr i e n d o f
y o u r s b e i n g a c o m p l a i n a n t h e g o t to k n o w a n d i n th a t c o n t e x t t h e
c o n v e r s a ti o n c a m e t o w e ll y o u t a l k a b o u t t h e G u p t a s . W h y d o y o u n o t
c o m e a n d s e e t h e m ? W h a t w o u ld y o u r c o m m e n t b e t h e n ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

Yo u c a n j u s t r e p e a t t h a t q u e s t io n p l e a s e .

What did you say?
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : M r B o o y s e n p ic t u r e s y o u r r e l a ti o n s h i p a s b e i n g h e c o m e s to m e e t y o u i n a s e m i - o ff ic i a l c a p a c i ty o r o ff ic ia l c a p a c i ty a s
a c o c o m p l a i n a n t i n a c r i mi n a l m a t t e r. R i g h t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
20

A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : W e r e y o u a c o c o m p l a i n a n t in a c r i m in a l m a t t e r ?
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA: No. I was not.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

W h a t r e a s o n w o u l d M r B o o y s e n h a v e to b e

m is t a k e n o r e v e n t o b e n o t h o n e s t a b o u t t h a t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I a m n o t s u r e . H e m a y h a v e b e e n c o n fu s e d . I
d o n o t k n o w.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Yo u r v e r s i o n i s t h a t y o u b e c a m e fr ie n d ly.

Yo u

m e t b e c a u s e a fr i e n d o f y o u r s w a s a c o m p l a i n a n t i n a c r i m i n a l m a t t e r.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s .
ADV MIKE HELLENS: Right?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is i t .
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : A n d t h e r e a f t e r y o u b e c a m e fr i e n d ly ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : I l ik e t o b e li e v e s o , y e s .
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Mr Booysen

does

not

c h a r a c t e r is e

that

r e l a ti o n s h i p y o u h a d a s a fr i e n d s h ip o r a f a ir ly c l o s e a c q u a in t a n c e s h i p .
10

H e d o e s n o t c h a r a c t e r is e i t a s t h a t?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : N o . H e d o e s n o t.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : H e s a y s y o u - y o u u n e x p e c t e d ly to o k h i m t o t h e
Gupta home.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t is w h a t h e s a id .
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : A n d w h a t is th e tr u t h ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a t a ll a l o n g a s I d e t a il e d b e f o r e w h e n I w a s
a s k e d b y th e e v i d e n c e l e a d e r t h a t d a y i n q u e s ti o n t h e r e w a s a n
a g r e e m e n t f o r u s t o g o t h r o u g h to t h e s a i d m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON :

20

I th i n k M r H e ll e n s i f I a m n o t m i s ta k e n t o b e fa ir t o

G e n e r a l B o o y s e n h e d o e s s a y t h a t t h e tw o o f th e m h a d s e v e r a l
m e e ti n g s .

S o - s o t h e e x t e n t t h a t w h a t y o u h a v e s a id to th e w i tn e s s

m i g h t s u g g e s t t h a t h is v e r s i o n is t h a t t h e r e m ig h t n o t h a v e b e e n m u c h
in t e r a c ti o n b e tw e e n t h e m b e f o r e t h a t .
I a m ju s t s a y i n g m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f h i s a ffi d a v i t i s t h a t h e
d o e s s a y b e fo r e t h a t t h e r e h a d b e e n q u i te s o m e in t e r a c ti o n b e t w e e n t h e

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
two of them.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

M r C h a ir m a n w i t h o u t a s k i n g th e w i t n e s s l e t m e

m a k e a d ir e c t s u b m i s s i o n i f I m a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

W e i n v i te t h e C o m m i s s io n to - t o i n v e s ti g a t e

w h e t h e r Mr Z u m a w a s a c o c o m p l a i n a n t . I f i t i s s h o w t h a t h e w a s n o t i t
w o u ld c o lo u r t h e b a c k g r o u n d r e a s o n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : To Mr B o o y s e n e x p l a i n i n g t h a t t h e y m e t a n d h o w
10

t h e y m e t a n d i t w o u l d g i v e i m p e t u s to M r Z u m a ’s e v i d e n c e .

Namely

that …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

W e w e r e fr i e n d ly a n d h e w a n t e d to s e e t h e

G u p t a s a t my s u g g e s ti o n a s I u n d e r s t a n d i t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : A n d s o I to o k h i m t h e r e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : As o p p o s e d t o i t s t a r te d o ff a s a n d t h e n …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
20

A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : S o m e t h i n g f o r m a l a n d t h e n o u t o f t h e b lu e .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : T h e i n v e s ti g a ti o n o f c o c o m p l a in a n t …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm, hm.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : W o u l d c o n t e x t u a l is e a n d
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : D e s t a b il is e w e s u b m i t Mr B o o y s e n ’s e v id e n c e t o
the extent necessary …
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : To m a k e f a r l e s s o n e r o u s - o m in o u s t h e t r i p t o 5
S a x o n w o ld .
CHAIRPERSON : Hm.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

T h a t is t h e p o i n t a n d th e n i n c o n c lu s i o n .

M r S u n d a r a m , h e m e n ti o n s y o u b u t w i th o u t a p u r p o s e b e c a u s e y o u d o
n o t a p p e a r t o h a v e d o n e a n y t h in g i n a n y o f th e s e m e e ti n g s a t a l l .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s s ir.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : B u t y o u g e t a m e n ti o n .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : H o n o u r a b le e v e r y ti m e .
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

Ja.

Sometimes whe n you are not there and

once when you were there?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s s ir.
ADV MIKE HELLENS:

A n d th e n Mr R a m a tl h o d i t o o .

There does not

s e e m t o b e m u c h p o i n t i n h i m p u ll in g y o u in . I t i s j u s t t h a t y o u a r e o n
the

crime

scene

as

Mr Mokoena

lo v e s

to

s a y.

C o i n c id e n t a lly

a p p a r e n t ly.
20

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s s ir.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : T h a n k y o u M r C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u M r H e ll e n s . I - I s e e M r H e ll e n s t h a t y o u
k e p t t o y o u r 1 0 to 1 2 m i n u te s t h a t w a s - th a t is t o b e c o m m e n d e d .
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o s o r r y.
A D V M I K E H E L L E N S : I h a v e b e e n a r o u n d a l o n g ti m e .

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o r r y. Ex c u s e m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW:

Excuse me.

Mr C h a ir w e s p o k e o n th is s id e a n d

t h e r e i s n o c h a n c e o f c o m p l e ti n g m y s i d e o f th e w o r k t o d a y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW: And we …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV PIET LOUW:

T h o u g h t o f a s k i n g y o u w h e t h e r y o u c o u ld p e r h a p s

commence at 9 o’ clock …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V P I E T L O U W : To m o r r o w m o r n i n g . T h e n I s h o u ld b e d o n e b y 1 0 o ’
c lo c k .
CHAIRPERSON :

No that.

W e l l o n e , a d j o u r n in g is f in e b u t w e - w e

m i g h t n o t n e e d to s t a r t a t - a t 9 o ’ c l o c k . W e m i g h t b e f in e w it h s t a r t in g
a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k b e c a u s e t h e o th e r w i tn e s s e s t h a t a r e s c h e d u l e d f o r
t o m o r r o w w il l b e v e r y s h o r t.
ADV PIET LOUW: I thought …
CHAIRPERSON : So …
A D V P I E T L O U W : I t m i g h t ju s t a s s is t i n g e tt i n g t h e jo b d o n e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d . N o . I - I u n d e r s ta n d .
A D V P I E T L O U W : S o i t w il l b e 1 0 o ’ c l o c k th e n .
CHAIRPERSON :

Ye s .

S o w e w i ll s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k .

s o r r y. M r Zu m a .
MR DUDUZA NE ZUMA: So sorry to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u w a n t t o s a y s o m e t h i n g ?

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We - oh I am

07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Ye s p l e a s e . J u s t a c o n c e r n fr o m m y s i d e a n d
it is q u it e a b ig c o n c e r n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR DUDUZANE ZUMA:

J u s t fr o m t h e e v id e n c e p a c k t h a t h a s b e e n

presented today …
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : A n d th a t I h a v e b e e n q u e s ti o n e d o n . Th e r e is
a g la r i n g o m is s i o n . I a m n o t s u r e i f t h e r e i s a m is ta k e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A g l a r i n g o m is s i o n .
10

M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O m i s s i o n o f - o f a w i t n e s s t h a t t e s ti fi e d i n fr o n t
of the Commission and …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h w h o h a s n o t b e e n m e n t io n e d h e r e ? W h o h a s n o t
b e e n i n c lu d e h e r e ?
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : C o r r e c t . Th a t w il l b e a n Ms Vy t ji e M e n t o r. S o
I am not sure where that …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : L i n e o f q u e s ti o n i n g w il l b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : I t h i n k - I t h i n k w h a t m a y h a v e b e e n i n te n d e d - m a y b e
w e s h o u ld - w e s h o u l d a d j o u r n .

20

Yo u r c o u n s e l h e a r s w h a t y o u a r e

s a y in g a n d I t h in k t h e y h a v e s t a r t e d t a l k i n g t o M r M o k o e n a .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e y w il l d is c u s s a n d t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g I w i ll b e t o ld
what happened to your concern.
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : Al r i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON :

I t i s p o s s ib l e t h a t it w a s t h o u g h t th a t y o u m i g h t b e

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07 OCTOBER 2019 – DAY 178
a s k e d t o c o m e b a c k a t a n o t h e r t i m e b u t M r M o k o e n a w il l - w ill d e a l w i t h
the …
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e c o n c e r n a n d t h e n t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g I w i ll b e t o ld .
M R D U D U Z A N E Z U M A : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON :
adjourn.

O k a y.

So we - we are going to adjourn or before we - we
M a y b e w e c a n d e a l w it h th is to m o r r o w.

W e w i ll

a d j o u r n a n d th e n to m o r r o w w e w ill s t a r t a t 1 0 o ’ c l o c k . W e a d j o u r n .
REGISTRAR: All rise.
10

I N Q U I RY A D J O U R N S TO 8 O C TO B E R 2 0 1 9

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