C O M M I S S I O N O F I N Q U IR Y I N TO S TAT E C A P T U R E
H E L D AT
BRAAMFONTEIN, JOHANNESBURG

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06 NOVEMBER 2019

D AY 1 8 7

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
PROCEEDINGS RESU ME ON 6 NOVEMB ER 2019
C H A I R P E R S O N : A s th e c o m m is s i o n t o h a v e h e a r i n g s t h i s w e e k w h e n
o u r n o r m a l v e n u e i s n o t a v a i la b le w e r e a ll y a p p r e c i a te t h a t t h i s i s w h a t
t h e y h a v e d o n e f o r u s a n d h a v e m a d e a v a i la b le to u s fr e e o f c h a r g e .
T h e r e a r e n o t t o o m a n y th in g s th a t a r e fr e e s o w e r e a l ly a p p r e c i a te
e s p e c i a l ly w it h o u r fi n a n c i a l c o n s tr a in t s a s t h e c o m m is s i o n . S o I w o u l d
lik e t o th a n k t h e m v e r y m u c h f o r m a k i n g t h e f a c il i ty a v a i l a b le . W e w i ll
s i t h e r e t o d a y a n d t o m o r r o w a n d t h e r e a f te r w e w i ll g o b a c k to o u r
n o r m a l v e n u e . T h a n k y o u . Ms H o f m e y r a r e y o u r e a d y ?
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s i n d e e d C h a ir. I f I m a y r e –
CHAIRPERSON: Oh I touched – you can hear me but I need to see –
to hear whether I can hear you?
ADV HOFMEYR: Can you hear me now?
CHAIRPERSON: Now I can hear you.
A D V H O F M E Y R : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y a lr ig h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a i r j u s t a s a m a t te r o f l o g is t ic s . I u n d e r s ta n d t h a t
w e a r e g o in g t o h a v e t o b e c a r e fu l t o d a y t o e n s u r e t h a t o n l y t w o
m ic r o p h o n e s a r e o n a t a n y p o i n t i n ti m e .

20

I h a v e b e e n to l d th a t

o th e r w i s e t h e tr a n s c r i p ti o n s e r v ic e is a ff e c t e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

ADV HOFMEYR:

S o m y s u g g e s t io n i s t h a t o n o u r s i d e w e w i ll tr y t o

n a v i g a t e t o e n s u r e th a t th e r e a r e n o t t h r e e m ic r o p h o n e s o n a t a n y
point.

B u t j u s t s o t h a t w e u n d e r s t a n d th a t t h a t d o e s h a v e a n

i m p l ic a t i o n

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V H O F M E Y R : F o r t h e tr a n s c r ip t io n a n d n o d o u b t w e w il l b e s e n t a
m e s s a g e i f th e r e i s a n is s u e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

But it seems to be that you and I can at the same

ti m e h a v e o u r m ic r o p h o n e s o n a n d b e a u d i b l e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o w I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r b e c a u s e m o s t o f th e
ti m e I w i ll n o t b e t a l k i n g .
ADV HOFMEYR: Hm.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W h e t h e r – I p r o b a b ly s h o u l d s w i tc h o ff m i n e w h i le y o u
a r e a s k i n g a w i t n e s s q u e s t io n s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I s u s p e c t t h a t w i ll b e id e a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t l e t m e s e e h o w y o u d o th a t .

Nobody has

e x p l a i n e d t o m e a n d I c a n n o t s e e a n y w r it i n g h e r e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t s e e m s t o h a v e t a k e n i t o ff y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y n o w I k n o w h o w to s w it c h i t o ff .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ex c e ll e n t. E x c e l le n t . T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k – th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Ye s w e m a y c o n ti n u e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I f w e c o u l d t h e n s w e a r i n t h e w i tn e s s ?
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Mr – [ in d is ti n c t ] y o u m u s t ju s t s w e a r i n M r

Maseko.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d ?
MR MASEKO: Themba Mvell James Maseko.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MR MASEKO: I do not.

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
MR MASEKO: I do.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th ; t h e w h o l e tr u th a n d n o th i n g b u t th e tr u th , i f s o p l e a s e r a is e y o u r
r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y, s o h e l p m e G o d ?
M R M A S E K O : S o h e lp m e G o d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y th a n k y o u . T h a n k y o u f o r c o m in g b a c k t o g i v e
evidence Mr Maseko.
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
M R M A S E K O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M s H o f m e y r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

M r M a s e k o a s th e C h a ir h a s

in d i c a t e d t h is is y o u r r e t u r n to g iv e e v i d e n c e a t t h e c o m m is s i o n .

Yo u

la s t g a v e e v i d e n c e a t th e e n d o f A u g u s t l a s t y e a r. A n d ju s t t o o r i e n t a t e
y o u I k n o w y o u a r e a n o l d h a n d a t t h is b u t w h a t y o u h a v e n e x t t o y o u i s
a b o x s e t o f f il e s c o n t a i n in g s o m e o f t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t m a y b e
r e fe r r e d to to d a y a n d o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f t h e n e x t t w o d a y s a s w e l l a s a
c o p y o f y o u r b u n d le o f e v id e n c e f o r to d a y. C h a ir i f I m a y r e q u e s t th a t
20

w e e n te r M r M a s e k o ’s b u n d l e i n to e v id e n c e a s E x h i b i t N N 1 ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a in in g – o k a y i t is – t h e l e v e r
a r c h fi le c o n ta in s a n u m b e r o f s t a te m e n ts a n d a n n e x u r e s , is t h a t r i g h t ?
ADV HOFMEYR:

It does indeed.

W e h a v e p u t – a c t u a l ly a l l fo u r

w i t n e s s e s i n o n e fi le .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w o u l d l ik e t o – y e s . M r M a s e k o ’s s t a te m e n t

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
– w h a t is i t d a t e d ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e l l th e fir s t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : A ff i d a v i t ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e r e a r e t w o a ff i d a v i ts C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e f ir s t o n e y o u w i ll f in d f r o m p a g e 1 .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

To p a g e I t h i n k i t w a s 8 . Ye s a n d i t is d a te d t h e 4

S e p te m b e r 2 0 0 9 .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d it i s f o l lo w e d b y a s e c o n d d o c u m e n t ti t le d

S t a te m e n t b u t is a c tu a l ly a n a ffi d a v it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h ic h w a s d e p o s e d to o n t h e 2 8 O c t o b e r o f t h is y e a r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . M r M a s e k o ’s s u p p l e m e n t a r y a ff id a v i t d a te d t h e 4
S e p te m b e r 2 0 1 9 a s w e l l a s h is o t h e r a ff id a v i t a n d w h a te v e r a n n e x u r e s
a r e a t t a c h e d th e r e to w i ll b e m a r k e d N N 1 .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e f o r e y o u p r o c e e d M s H o f m e y r I t h i n k t h e r e p r o b a b ly
20

is s o m e t h in g I s h o u ld – I s h o u l d s o r t o u t h e r e .

I hear you when you

s p e a k t h e w a y I s h o u l d h e a r y o u b u t I a ls o h a v e s o m e I d o n o t k n o w i f I
s h o u l d s w i tc h s o m e th i n g o ff h e r e . I h e a r y o u t h r o u g h s o m e th i n g e l s e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : O h . C h a ir p o s s i b l y s o m e a s s is ta n c e c a n b e g iv e n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Should we maybe adjourn for a few minutes to sort it

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
out for you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l m a y b e t h e a s s i s t a n c e w i ll b e q u ic k .
ADV HOFMEYR: Let us hope.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t s p e a k a g a in s o h e w ill h e a r w h a t is h a p p e n in g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . To d a y w e h a v e th e e v i d e n c e o f Mr M a s e k o .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r m a y b e t h is s h o u ld b e t a k e n o ff .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h o is r e t u r n in g to g i v e e v i d e n c e f o r a s e c o n d ti m e ?
CHAIRPERSON:

J a t h a t i s fi n e .

Ja.

T h e a s s i s ta n c e w a s q u ic k a n d

e ffe c tiv e .
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : Ex c e ll e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k y o u .

C h a ir i f w e m a y t h e p r o c e e d a n d Mr

M a s e k o I w a s c o v e r i n g th e f a c t th a t y o u h a d p r e v i o u s l y b e e n a w i tn e s s
b e f o r e th e c o m m i s s io n in A u g u s t o f la s t y e a r. A n d s in c e t h a t e v i d e n c e
t h e c o m m is s i o n h a s u n d e r ta k e n f u r t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s . T h e r e h a v e a ls o
b e e n fu r t h e r w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e p r o v i d e d a ff i d a v i ts a n d w h o w il l b e
t e s ti fy in g b e f o r e t h e c o m m is s i o n . A n d s o m e o f t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r t h a t
t h o s e w i t n e s s e s c o v e r r e l a t e t o th e e v i d e n c e th a t y o u g a v e i n A u g u s t o f
la s t y e a r.
20

A n d s o w e h a v e s o u g h t y o u r r e tu r n to th e c o m m i s s i o n i n

o r d e r t o c l o s e o ff c e r t a i n a s p e c ts o f t h e e v id e n c e t h a t y o u g a v e b a s e d
o n f u r t h e r i n v e s t ig a ti o n s t h a t t h e c o m m is s io n h a s d o n e a s w e l l a s to
h a v e y o u r r e s p o n s e in r e la t io n t o c e r t a i n w i t n e s s e s w h o h a v e e i t h e r
g iv e n a ff i d a v i ts a n d o r w il l b e g iv i n g o r a l e v i d e n c e i n d u e c o u r s e . S o
t h a t is j u s t to fr a m e t h e b a c k g r o u n d t o y o u r e v id e n c e t o d a y.

If I may

t h e n c o m m e n c e w i t h th e fir s t t o p ic a n d it i s a to p i c t h a t y o u w e r e a s k e d

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t o a d d r e s s i n o n e o f t h e a ffi d a v i t th a t y o u h a v e p la c e d b e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s s io n .

I w o u l d li k e to t a k e y o u t o b o t h o f t h o s e a n d ju s t h a v e

y o u r c o n f ir m a ti o n o f a p o in t I m a d e e a r l ie r b e c a u s e y o u r fir s t a ffi d a v it
y o u w il l f i n d a t p a g e 1 o f E x h i b i t N N 1 , d o y o u s e e th a t ?
MR MASEKO: I see it Ma’am.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w i ll s e e t h a t y o u r s ig n a tu r e a p p e a r s – w e ll a
s ig n a tu r e a p p e a r s a t p a g e 8 , c a n y o u c o n f ir m th a t t h a t is y o u r
s ig n a tu r e ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is i n d e e d m y s i g n a t u r e .
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d th is w a s a n a ff id a v i t y o u d e p o s e d to , i s t h a t

correct?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Now if you go over to page 12 – oh sorry 13 of the

same Exhibit NN1.
M R M A S E K O : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u w il l s e e a d o c u m e n t th e r e c a n y o u r e a d fo r u s

w h a t th e ti t le is o f t h a t d o c u m e n t ?
MR MASEKO:

W e l l t h e t i tl e s a y s S t a t e m e n t b y Th e m b a M v e l l J a m e s

M a s e k o i n r e s p o n s e t o th e s t a te m e n t m a d e b y Mr M a k a r i n g e R ic h a r d
20

B a lo y i .
ADV HOFMEYR:

I n d e e d a n d th e n i f y o u g o o v e r to p a g e 2 3 w h ic h I

t a k e t o b e t h e la s t p a g e o f t h a t d o c u m e n t , is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s I g o t i t h e r e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Is th a t y o u r s i g n a t u r e ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is i n d e e d m y s i g n a t u r e .

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ADV HOFMEYR:

And it appears to have been deposed to before a

C o m m i s s i o n e r o f O a t h s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o i t i s i n f a c t a ls o a n a ffi d a v i t ?
M R M A S E K O : I t is a n a ffi d a v it .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o n o t h a v e a n y d i ff i c u l t y w i th t h a t ?
M R M A S E K O : I t is a n a ffi d a v it .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C a n I j u s t c o n f ir m t h e n f o r th e r e c o r d t h e fa c t s s e t o u t
in b o th o f t h e s e d o c u m e n ts t h e o n e a p p e a r in g a n d c o m m e n c i n g a t p a g e
10

1 a n d th e o n e a p p e a r i n g a n d c o m m e n c i n g a t p a g e 1 3 a r e t h o s e f a c ts
tr u e a n d c o r r e c t t o t h e b e s t o f y o u r k n o w l e d g e ?
M R M A S E K O : To t h e b e s t o f m y k n o w l e d g e t h e y a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t
yes.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . S i n c e t h e e v id e n c e y o u g a v e i n A u g u s t o f
la s t y e a r M r M a s e k o fo r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a h a s t e s ti fi e d b e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s s io n . H e d i d s o i n th e w e e k o f th e 1 5 J u l y o f t h is y e a r a n d o n e
o f t h i n g s t h a t y o u w e r e a s k e d to p r o v i d e t o t h e c o m m i s s i o n i n y o u r
s e c o n d a ffi d a v i t i s a r e s p o n s e t o M r Zu m a ’s e v i d e n c e .

D o y o u r e c a ll

that?
20

M R M A S E K O : I r e c a ll t h a t y e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d it a c t u a ll y c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 5 o f N N 1 .
MR MASEKO: I got it.
ADV HOFMEYR: Do you see at paragraph 8 there.
M R M A S E K O : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a v e a h e a d i n g C o m m e n t o n Fo r m e r Pr e s id e n t J

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
G Z u m a ’s e v i d e n c e a t t h e c o m m is s i o n ?
MR MASEKO: I see that yes.
ADV HOFMEYR:

W h a t I w o u ld li k e t o d o t h i s m o r n i n g is t a k e y o u

t h r o u g h s o m e o f th e i m p o r ta n t a s p e c ts o f h is e v i d e n c e i n s o fa r a s y o u r
f o r m e r e v id e n c e i s c o n c e r n e d i n o r d e r t o h a v e y o u r r e s p o n s e to i t a n d
a ls o t o h a v e y o u r a s s is t a n c e in r e la t io n t o c e r ta in m a t t e r s t h a t h a v e
b e e n u n c o v e r e d i n t h e f u r t h e r i n v e s ti g a ti o n s o f t h e c o m m i s s i o n . S o i f
w e c a n s ta r t w it h M r Z u m a ’s t e s ti m o n y. M r Z u m a ’s t e s ti m o n y b e f o r e t h e
c o m m i s s io n in c l u d e d t h a t h e d e n i e d t h a t h e h a d h a d i n s tr u c t e d M i n is t e r
10

C h a b a n e t o r e m o v e y o u fr o m G C I S .

C h a ir I d o n o t s u g g e s t w e g o to

t h e tr a n s c r ip t a l l th e ti m e b u t in t h e c o u r s e o f th e q u e s t io n s I a m g o i n g
t o m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o t h e tr a n s c r i p t a n d w h e r e t h a t t e s ti m o n y c a n b e
f o u n d j u s t f o r t h e p u r p o s e s o f th e r e c o r d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

W h e r e i t is p e r t in e n t f o r u s t o lo o k a t p a r ti c u la r

w o r d i n g I m a y w e ll t h e n g o t o th e tr a n s c r i p t b u t th is i s n o t s u c h a c a s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a t is fi n e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : U n l e s s M r M a s e k o y o u fe e l t h e n e e d t o d o s o . B u t fo r
t h e r e c o r d th a t is in t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f th e 1 6 J u ly 2 0 1 9 a t p a g e 2 5 . N o w
20

y o u d o t a k e th a t u p i n t h e c o u r s e o f y o u r r e s p o n s e .

C a n y o u te ll u s

t o d a y w h a t y o u r r e s p o n s e to t h a t e v id e n c e o f M r Z u m a is ?
MR MASEKO:

T h e q u e s ti o n w a s w h e t h e r t h e d e p lo y m e n t o f D ir e c t o r s

G e n e r a l is d is c u s s e d w i t h t h e Pr e s id e n t in th is c o v e r e d in p a r a g r a p h 1 0
o f p a g e 2 3 o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t . A n d i n my r e s p o n s e I s a y th a t I d o a g r e e
w i t h t h e f o r m e r Pr e s i d e n t t h a t t h e d e p l o y m e n t o f D ir e c to r G e n e r a ls is

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
d is c u s s e d w i t h t h e Pr e s i d e n t w i t h a v i e w t o s e e k h is a p p r o v a l a n d I
w o u ld lik e t o u n d e r li n e t h e w o r d d is c u s s e d .

H o w e v e r a s fa r a s I a m

a w a r e c a b i n e t d i d n o t g e t i n v o lv e d in d e p lo y m e n t a n d tr a n s fe r o f
s e r v i n g d i r e c t o r s g e n e r a ls . A n d t h a t is – b e c a u s e m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is
t h a t t h e r e is a d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n th e t w o m in is t e r s r e l e a s i n g a n d
r e c e i v i n g M i n i s t e r a n d th e D G c o n c e r n e d .

I f t h e r e is a g r e e m e n t t h e n

t h e r e is c o n s u l t a ti o n o f t h e – w i t h th e P r e s i d e n t a n d t h e m a t te r i s
d is c u s s e d t o s e e k t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s a p p r o v a l a n d i f th e r e i s a g r e e m e n t a ll
t h o s e p a r ti e s th e n t h e tr a n s f e r i s a ff e c t e d .
10

ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you. And if we go over the page to page 6 at
p a r a g r a p h 8 . 3 y o u d e a l w i th t h e p a r t ic u l a r t e s ti m o n y o f f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t Z u m a a b o u t w h e t h e r h e h a d i n s tr u c t e d M i n is te r C h a b a n e t o
t e r m in a t e y o u r c o n t r a c t . Yo u r r e c o r d t h e r e th a t t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ’s
e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t h e h a d n e v e r in s t r u c t e d M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e t o r e m o v e
y o u fr o m G C I S a n d i t w a s i n f a c t M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e w h o h a d a s k e d t h a t
h e b e t r a n s f e r r e d f r o m G C I S b e c a u s e – a n d th e n y o u w e r e q u o ti n g
t h e r e fr o m t h e tr a n s c r ip t
“ T h i s is t h e e v id e n c e o f M r Z u m a . I t h i n k th e r e w a s
a n is s u e b e t w e e n t h e m . ”

20

C a n y o u g iv e u s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th a t e v i d e n c e ?
MR MASEKO:

M y r e s p o n s e is v e r y c l e a r.

I th i n k w h a t t h e fo r m e r

P r e s i d e n t s a y s i n h i s o r a l e v i d e n c e is u n tr u e .

There was never an

is s u e b e t w e e n m y s e l f a n d M i n is t e r C h a b a n e .

W e h a d a v e r y s o li d

r e l a ti o n s h i p . A n d t h e w a y M i n is te r C h a b a n e c o n v e y e d t h e m e s s a g e to
m e d e m o n s tr a te d t h a t i n f a c t h e h i m s e l f w a s s h o c k e d b y t h e t u r n o f

Page 10 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
events.

S o t h e s u g g e s ti o n b y th e fo r m e r Pr e s i d e n t t h a t t h e r e m i g h t

h a v e b e e n a n is s u e b e t w e e n m e a n d M in is te r C h a b a n e I d is p u t e i t
C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir y o u m i g h t r e c a ll i n th e c o u r s e o f M r
M a s e k o ’s e v i d e n c e i n A u g u s t o f l a s t t h e is s u e – y o u r a is e d a n i s s u e
a b o u t th e n a t u r e o f t h e w o r k i n g r e l a ti o n s h i p a n d w h e t h e r t h e r e h a d
b e e n a n y p e r fo r m a n c e a s s e s s m e n ts o f M r M a s e k o .

A t th e ti m e w e

u n d e r t o o k t o i n v e s t ig a t e t h a t f u r t h e r a n d w e d o h a v e a r e l e v a n t
d o c u m e n t . M r M a s e k o fo r t h is p u r p o s e I a m g o in g to a s k y o u t o g o to
10

t h e b u n d l e th a t s h o u ld b e i n f r o n t o f y o u N N 5 .
MR MASEKO: I got it.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a ir i f – if I m a y e x p l a i n t h e o r i g i n s o f N N 5 ? T h e r e
a r e a s e r ie s o f w i t n e s s e s w h o w i ll p r e s e n t e v i d e n c e o v e r t h e – t o d a y
a n d to m o r r o w.

N N 5 c o m p r is e s a s e r i e s o f d o c u m e n t s t h a t h a v e b e e n

p u t t o g e t h e r i n p r e p a r a ti o n f o r t o d a y ’s e v i d e n c e .

I t – a s m a t te r s

c u r r e n tly s ta n d i t i s i n f a c t n o t a c o m p l e te f il e . T h e r e h a v e b e e n
e n g a g e m e n ts o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f t h e e n d o f l a s t w e e k a n d t h e b e g i n n i n g
o f t h i s w e e k i n o r d e r to o b t a i n th e fi n a l d o c u m e n ts th a t a r e r e q u ir e d t o
c o m p le t e t h e f il e .
20

As m a t t e r s c u r r e n t ly s t a n d i t i s s ti ll i n c o m p l e t e

b e c a u s e t h e r e is a n i m p o r t a n t a ff id a v i t th a t w e a r e a w a i ti n g f o r fr o m t h e
D ir e c t o r

General

A d m i n i s t r a t io n .

Of

the

Department

of

P u b lic

S e r v ic e

and

S o t h is fi l e i s n o t c o m p l e te u n ti l th a t is a d d e d to i t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a ir I w i ll u p d a t e y o u i n t h e c o u r s e o f t h e d a y a b o u t
t h e e ff o r ts th a t a r e b e i n g m a d e t o o b ta i n t h a t a ff i d a v i t a n d h a v e i t

Page 11 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
a v a i la b le t o u s f o r th e h e a r in g to d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t n o n e th e le s s t h e r e a r e c e r t a i n d o c u m e n t s a lr e a d y
c o n ta in e d i n th is fi le t h a t I p r o p o s e t o ta k e v a r io u s w i t n e s s e s t o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h e r e m a y b e o c c a s i o n s w h e r e th e w i tn e s s e s h a v e

n o t s e e n t h e s e d o c u m e n ts b e f o r e o r r e c e n t ly.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h e r e t h a t is t h e c a s e it is m y s u g g e s ti o n t h a t w e
10

g iv e t h e w it n e s s th e f u ll o p p o r t u n i ty to c o n s i d e r i t.

I f i t is a l e n g t h y

d o c u m e n t a n d th e r e i s a n e e d f o r a f e w m o m e n ts t o d o s o my
s u g g e s t io n w o u ld b e t h a t w e e n a b l e t h a t t o ta k e p l a c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

B u t f o r p r e s e n t p u r p o s e s if w e c o u l d e n t e r t h i s a s

E x h i b i t N N 5 in t o t h e r e c o r d b e c a u s e I w il l m a k e r e fe r e n c e t o i t
t h r o u g h o u t t o d a y ’s e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e l e v e r a r c h f il e c o n t a i n in g v a r i o u s d o c u m e n ts

s t a r ti n g w i t h a le t t e r s ig n e d o n 3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 0 9 b y M i n is t e r o f L a b o u r M r
M M S M d l a d l a n a w il l b e m a r k e d a s E x h i b i t N N . Ye s .
20

ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a s e k o i f I c o u l d a s k y o u t o tu r n u p p a g e 1 5 6 i n
Exhibit NN5?
MR MASEKO: I got it.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Is th a t a d o c u m e n t …

Page 12 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON: Did you say 16?
A D V H O F M E Y R : 1 5 6 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: 156. Thank you.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ms M a s e k o h a v e y o u s e e n t h is l e t te r b e fo r e ?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e n o t s e e n t h is l e t te r b e fo r e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u te ll u s w h o i t is fr o m a n d i t i s t o a n d w h a t it s
date is?
MR MASEKO:

Th e l e tt e r i s d a te d t h e 6 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d i t is

d ir e c t e d t o t h e D e p u ty C h i e f E x e c u t iv e O ff ic e r C o r p o r a te S e r v i c e s o f
10

G C I S M s P h u m e l a W i ll i a ms a n d i t is a P e r f o r m a n c e As s e s s m e n t o f Mr
T h e m b a M a s e k o . D o y o u w a n t m e t o r e a d w h a t th e l e t te r s a y s ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s j u s t …
M R M A S E K O : I t is ju s t o n e s e n te n c e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : J u s t – j u s t I – i f y o u w il l d o t h a t i n a m o m e n t . J u s t to
c o n fir m w h o w r o t e t h e l e tt e r ?
MR MASEKO:

T h e le t t e r is fr o m M i n is t e r C o l li n s C h a b a n a – w a s

M i n is t e r i n t h e P r e s i d e n c y a t t h e ti m e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d th e n j u s t b e fo r e y o u g e t t o t h e c o n t e n t o f t h e

le t t e r I w a n t t o l o c a t e t h i s le t t e r in t i m e .
20

I t is d a te d t h e 6 D e c e m b e r

2 0 11 . W h e n w e r e y o u r e m o v e d a s D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f G C I S ?
M R M A S E K O : I t w a s in F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

I f y o u c a n t h e n te ll u s w h a t t h e l e tt e r

records?
CHAIRPERSON:

I am sorry Ms Hofmeyr I think you said 6 December

2 0 11 ?

Page 13 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is 6 D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 .
MR MASEKO: 2010.
ADV HOFMEYR:

A ll o f my c o ll e a g u e s h a v e a l e r te d m e to t h e fa c t o f

t h a t e r r o r I a m i n d e b t e d to y o u a s w e ll C h a ir.

So it is dated 6

D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 . I h a v e y o u r e v id e n c e th a t y o u l e f t G C I S i n F e b r u a r y
2 0 11 s o c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g i t is t h e D e c e m b e r p r e c e d in g y o u r
d e p a r t u r e fr o m G C I S ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . I f y o u w il l t e ll u s w h a t t h e l e tt e r r e c o r d s ?
M R M A S E K O : I t s ta r t s o f b y s a y in g :
“ Yo u r le t t e r m e a n i n g M s W il li a m ’s le t t e r, d a te d 2 6 O c t o b e r r e f e r s . A f t e r
c o n s u l t a ti o n I h a v e ta k e n t h e d e c i s i o n to t a k e in t o c o n s i d e r a ti o n t h e
p a n e l ’s d e c i s i o n a n d a n a ly s is o f Mr M a s e k o ’s P e r fo r m a n c e A s s e s s m e n t
f o r t h e p e r i o d 2 0 0 8 / 2 0 0 9 a n d a g r e e w i t h t h e p a n e l s c o r e o f 11 4 % .

I

r e c o m m e n d a p a y p r o g r e s s i o n f o r M r M a s e k o ’s o v e r a ll p e r fo r m a n c e . ”
A D V H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u a s s is t u s w i t h t h e s c o r e o f 11 4 % ? I s t h a t a
good or bad score?
M R M A S E K O : I a m h a p p y w i th i t.
20

A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u h a p p y w i th i t ? G o o d . C a n y o u c o n fi r m w h e t h e r
y o u g o t t h e p a y p r o g r e s s io n a f t e r th a t l e t te r ?
MR MASEKO:

I a m s u r e I d i d b u t I c a n n o t r e c a ll i f t h e p a y m e n t w a s

made.
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u . I w o u l d t h e n l ik e t o r e t u r n t o t h e n e x t

a s p e c t o f Pr e s i d e n t – f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a ’s e v id e n c e ?

Page 14 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e b e fo r e y o u d o s o .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n ly C h a ir.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M s H o f m e y r a n d o n c e a g a i n t o t i e u p w i th w h a t e v e r I
m a y h a v e a s k e d a b o u t p e r f o r m a n c e la s t t i m e .

Now you said you had

n o t s e e n t h i s l e t t e r b e f o r e , is t h a t r ig h t
MR MASEKO: I may have.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u m a y h a v e ?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir p e r s o n b u t I d o n o t r e c a l l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u c a n n o t r e m e m b e r.
10

MR MASEKO: I cannot remember this.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w w a s t h e p r a c ti c e t h a t y o u w o u l d g e t t o

k n o w h o w a p a n e l a s s e s s e d y o u r p e r f o r m a n c e is a n y p a r ti c u l a r y e a r ?
I n o t h e r w o r d s w o u l d y o u g e t t o k n o w t h i s is t h e s c o r e t h e y g a v e to m y
performance?
MR MASEKO:

Ye s C h a ir p e r s o n n o r m a lly t h e p a n e l s i ts , d o e s a

P e r f o r m a n c e E v a l u a ti o n . Yo u g e t i n te r v i e w e d . T h e y l o o k a t w h a t e v e r
d o c u m e n ts y o u p r e s e n t .

Then the – the Head of HR would then

c o m m u n ic a te t o y o u i n w r it i n g to s a y, t h is w a s y o u r s c o r e a n d th is w il l
b e t h e b o n u s t h a t y o u a r e e n ti t l e d t o .
20

B u t th e c o m m u n i c a t io n w i ll b e

fr o m t h e H e a d o f H R o r C o r p o r a t e S e r v ic e s th a t c o m m u n ic a t e s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm..
M R M A S E K O : S o t h e M i n i s t e r r e p o r t s t h e fi n d i n g s o f t h e p a n e l t o H R .
H R r e p o r ts to t h e e m p lo y e e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o – s o b e f o r e – b e fo r e t h e i s s u e o f a

P e r f o r m a n c e A s s e s s m e n t is fi n a l is e d d o e s t h e M i n i s t e r h a v e to i n d ic a t e

Page 15 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
w h e t h e r h e a c c e p t s o r s h e a c c e p ts t h e s c o r e g iv e n b y t h e p a n e l o r is
t h e p o s i ti o n t h a t o n c e t h e p a n e l h a s g i v e n t h e s c o r e t h a t is t h e s c o r e
a n d w h a te v e r th e Mi n is te r s a y s . S o w h a t is t h e r o l e o f t h e M i n is t e r o r
w h a t is t h e s t a tu s o f t h e M i n i s te r ’s r e s p o n s e ? W h a t i s t h e s t a t u s o f th e
score given by the panel?
MR MASEKO:

W e l l t h e M i n i s t e r i s t h e s u p e r v is o r o f t h e D ir e c t o r

G e n e r a l.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : S o th e M i n is t e r s i ts a n d is p a r t o f t h e p a n e l .
10

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
M R M A S E K O : S o h e is p a r t o f t h e d e c is i o n . O n c e th e r e i s a g r e e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : A m o n g p a n e l m e m b e r s o v e r th e p e r f o r m a n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : T h e n t h e M i n is te r s i g n s o ff a n d a g r e e s a n d s a y s , t h i s is
o u r r e c o m m e n d a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
M R M A S E K O : S o h e is p a r t o f t h e d e c is i o n
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y s o t h e M i n is te r w o u l d b e p a r t o f th e p a n e l t h a t

20

a s s e s s e d y o u r – t h a t w o u ld a s s e s s a D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l ’s p e r f o r m a n c e ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Now

t h is

p a r ti c u la r s c o r e r e l a te s

Performance Assessment for 2008/2009.

a

Would the Performance

A s s e s s m e n t r e l a t e t o a f in a n c i a l y e a r ?
M R M A S E K O : I t r e l a t e s t o a fi n a n c i a l y e a r y e s .

Page 16 of 179

to

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON:

I t r e l a te s t o a fi n a n c i a l y e a r.

S o th is w o u l d h a v e

been for the period March 2008 to February – end of February 2009
more or less?
M R M A S E K O : M o r e o r l e s s y e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y. A n d b y t h e t i m e y o u – w o u ld t h is b e th e

la s t p e r f o r m a n c e a s s e s s m e n t t h a t a s f a r a s y o u r e m e m b e r w a s
c o n d u c t e d i n r e g a r d t o y o u r p e r f o r m a n c e b e fo r e y o u l e ft ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON: GCIS?
10

M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

H m . N o w t h e s c o r e t h a t w a s g iv e n in r e g a r d t o t h is

o n e is 11 4 % t h a t s e e m s t o b e q u i t e a v e r y h i g h s c o r e . N o w w e m i g h t
n o t b e h a v i n g l e t t e r s r e la t in g t o o th e r y e a r s b u t y o u m i g h t b e a b l e to
r e m e m b e r h o w o t h e r y e a r s th e s c o r e s y o u g o t in m a y b e t h e p r e v i o u s
t w o o r s o y e a r s h o w th a t m a y h a v e c o m p a r e d w i th t h i s s c o r e ? S o i f y o u
a r e a b l e to r e m e m b e r e v e n i f i t i s a n e s t i m a te t h a t w o u ld b e h e l p f u l ?
MR MASEKO:

C h a ir p e r s o n u n f o r tu n a te l y I a m s u r e w e c a n g e t t h e

r e c o r d s fr o m G C I S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

MR MASEKO:

I c a n n o t r e c a ll s in c e th is w a s q u i t e a n u m b e r o f y e a r s

ago.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : B u t a ll I c a n c o n f ir m is th a t th e r e h a s n e v e r b e e n a y e a r
w h e r e I g o t a n e g a ti v e a l lo c a t io n o f m a r k s – o f p o in t s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A n e g a t iv e w o u l d s t a r t fr o m w h e n ? B e l o w 5 0 o r

Page 17 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
what?
M R M A S E K O : W e ll i t w o u ld b e 1 0 0 % s o …
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR MASEKO:

S o i f y o u – i f I a m p e r fo r m i n g a c c o r d in g to s t a n d a r d i t

w i ll b e y o u r n o r m a l 1 0 0 % b u t …
CHAIRPERSON:

O h o k a y.

W e ll m a y b e y o u m u s t e x p l a i n s o m e th i n g .

W h e n t h e s c o r e h e r e r e a d s 11 4 % t h a t s a y s t o m e a n d I w o u ld i m a g in e i t
s a y s t o o t h e r p e o p l e w h o m i g h t n o t b e f a m i li a r w i th p u b l ic s e r v ic e
P e r f o r m a n c e A s s e s s m e n ts . I t s a y s t o m e t h is p e r s o n d id b e y o n d 1 0 0 % ,
10

is t h a t c o r r e c t – a c o r r e c t u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f i t ?
M R M A S E K O : J a . T h e r e i s a fo r m u l a , a c a l c u l a ti o n o f p o i n ts . S o y o u
– t h e r e a r e o b je c tiv e s t h a t a r e s e t .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MASEKO:

A n d n u m b e r s a r e a ll o c a t e d t o t h a t f o r m u l a .

So let us

s a y H u m a n R e s o u r c e M a n a g e m e n t o r A b il it y t o m a n a g e a b u d g e t
e ffe c tiv e l y s o t h e n u m b e r o f p o i n ts w il l b e a l lo c a t e d t o th a t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : A n d t h e n t h e r e w i ll b e g o a l s f o r th e y e a r i n q u e s ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR MASEKO:

A n d t h o s e a r e t h i n g s a g r e e d t o w i th y o u r M i n is te r a s

y o u r s u p e r v is o r.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

S o a t t h e e n d o f th e p e r io d w e t h e n g o t h r o u g h t h a t

Performance Agreement.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

Page 18 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M R M A S E K O : A n d th e n p o in ts a r e a l lo c a t e d . S o i f y o u – l e t u s s a y f o r
m a n a g e m e n t o f th e b u d g e t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : T h e r e is a p o i n t o f 6 0 a n d y o u g e t 5 9 p o i n ts o u t o f t h a t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : S o t h e n t h e y a d d a ll t h e n u m b e r s a n d th e n y o u – a t t h e
e n d o f t h e c a lc u l a ti o n y o u a r e g iv e n a s c o r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:
10

S o i f t h e a ll o c a ti o n h e r e s a y s th e p e r fo r m a n c e is 1 0 0

a n d w h a t i s i t?
C H A I R P E R S O N : 11 4 .
M R M A S E K O : 11 4 % .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm;
M R M A S E K O : I t c l e a r l y i n d ic a te s t h a t y o u h a v e e x c e e d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : T h e s t a n d a r d t h a t y o u h a d a g r e e d to w i th y o u r M i n is t e r.
S o i t is …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . B u t …
M R M A S E K O : I t w o u l d – I t h i n k t h e y a ll o c a t e e x c e l l e n c e 1 0 0 % , G o o d

20

b e y o n d 1 0 0 % i t w i ll b e e x c e l l e n t o r w h a te v e r.

I cannot remember

[i n d is t in c t] .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s b u t – b u t c a n I j u s t c o n fir m t h is ? W h e n I lo o k a t
11 4 % I a m k i n d o f t h i n k i n g o f a s t u d e n t w h o is d o in g a n e x a m a n d t h e
h i g h e s t t h e y c a n g e t is 1 0 0 % .
M R M A S E K O : O k a y.

Page 19 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON:

S o i f i t is 11 4 % i t s e e m s to m e t o b e I d o n o t k n o w

w h a t i t is s o m a y b e w h o e v e r is d o i n g t h e s c o r e s a y s y o u k n o w th is
s t u d e n t i t is n o t e n o u g h t o g iv e h i m 1 0 0 % b e c a u s e h e is a c t u a ll y m o r e
t h a n th a t .

So – but I want to check whether I am correct in

u n d e r s t a n d in g i t t h a t w a y o r w h e t h e r t h e r e is s o m e t h in g t h a t I d o n o t
understand?
M R M A S E K O : I t h i n k th e m e s s a g e w e c o u l d g e t o u t o f t h a t n u m b e r is
t h a t p e r f o r m a n c e w a s e x c e p t io n a l .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ex c e p ti o n a l ?
10

M R M A S E K O : I t e x c e e d e d a l l e x p e c t a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A l l e x p e c t a ti o n s .
MR MASEKO:

Ye s a n d th a t is w h e r e t h e n i t r a is e s i s s u e s a b o u t t h e

p o s s i b il it y o r li k e li h o o d o f y o u r s u p e r v i s o r s a y in g I a m h a p p y w i th y o u .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : A n d w h e n t h e c o n tr a c t c o m e s to a n e n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:

Th e s e w o u l d h a v e b e e n f a c t o r s t a k e n i n t o a c c o u n t t o

determine whether …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To e x c h a n g e o r n o t t o e x c h a n g e .
20

M R M A S E K O : T h e c o n tr a c t i s e x t e n d e d o r n o t e x te n d e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : B u t 11 4 % .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : E x c e p t io n a l .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y s o – b u t w h a t y o u a ls o s a id e a r li e r o n a s I

Page 20 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
understand it is you never – you never had an occasion when you got
le s s t h a n 1 0 0 % ? Is th a t r i g h t?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A t G C I S ?
MR MASEKO: At GCIS yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. M r M a s e k o i f w e c a n t h e n g o t o a
s e c o n d a s p e c t o f M r Z u m a ’s t e s ti m o n y ?

H i s te s t i m o n y o n th e 1 6 J u l y

a n d th is c a n b e p ic k e d u p i n t h e tr a n s c r i p t s a t p a g e s 2 3 to 2 5 a n d t h e n
10

a g a in a t p a g e 2 8 . H i s e v id e n c e w a s th a t i t w a s a d e c is i o n o f c a b in e t t o
tr a n s fe r y o u fr o m t h e p o s i t io n a s D G o f G C I S t o th e p o s i ti o n o f D G a t
D P S A . A n d I w o u l d lik e i f w e m a y t o e x p l o r e t h a t a b i t ? B u t b e f o r e w e
g e t t o i t I w o u ld li k e y o u r a s s is t a n c e o n s o m e b a c k g r o u n d a b o u t c a b i n e t
d e c is i o n s a n d w h a t t h e m i n u t e s o f a c a b i n e t m e e ti n g w i ll r e c o r d i n
r e l a ti o n t o th o s e m e e t in g s ?

C o u l d y o u fi r s t f o r b a c k g r o u n d e x p la in t o

u s w h a t e x p e r ie n c e y o u h a v e o f c a b i n e t m e e t in g s ?
MR MASEKO:

T h e d e c is io n m a k i n g i n c a b i n e t is a s fo ll o w s :

A

d e p a r t m e n t o r a M i n i s te r t h a t w a n ts a d e c is io n t o b e t a k e n b y c a b in e t
o n a p a r ti c u la r m a t te r t h e y g e n e r a te w h a t is k n o w n a s C a b i n e t
20

M e m o r a n d u m a n d th e C a b i n e t M e m o r a n d u m w il l s u m m a r is e t h e is s u e –
t h e r e a s o n s f o r th a t d e c is io n to b e m a d e .

I t w il l a ls o m a k e

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a b o u t w h a t e x a c t d e c i s io n c a b i n e t n e e d s t o ta k e .
S u c h a C a b i n e t M e m o r a n d u m is th e n t a b l e d o r d i n a r i ly i n fr o n t o f a
c a b i n e t s u b - c o m m i t t e e w h ic h is a c a b i n e t s u b - c o m m i t t e e t h a t s i t s
b e f o r e a f o r m a l c a b in e t m e e t i n g .

The cabinet sub-committee and

Page 21 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
g o v e r n m e n t is d iv i d e d i n to - in t o d i ff e r e n t c lu s te r s . I t h i n k t h a t th e - i f I
r e c a l l a b o u t fi v e o r s ix s u c h C a b i n e t C o m m i t t e e s .

S o th e C a b in e t

m e m o is t h e n d e b a t e d a n d d is c u s s e d a t t h e le v e l o f th e C a b i n e t
S u b c o m m i t t e e a n d th e n w h e n th e r e is a n a g r e e m e n t i n t h e C a b i n e t
S u b c o m m i t t e e t h e m a t t e r is th e n p u t o n t h e a g e n d a o f a fo r m a l C a b in e t
m e e ti n g a n d t h e C a b i n e t w il l th e n g o t h r o u g h th e c o n t e n ts o f t h e
C a b in e t

memorandum

and

then

look

at

the

recommendations

s p e c i f ic a l ly a n d th e n C a b i n e t t h e n a p p r o v e s t h o s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s .
S o t h a t c o n s t it u t e s a - a C a b i n e t d e c i s i o n . T h e m i n u t e s w i ll
10

then

i n d ic a t e

that

Cabinet

has

approved

the

f o l l o w in g

r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s . S o t h e r e w il l b e n o t e d o n t h a t m a t t e r. T h e r e w o u ld
b e h o w e v e r e m e r g e n c y m a t t e r s th a t d o n o t n e c e s s a r il y g o t h r o u g h
C a b in e t C o m m i t t e e / S u b c o m m i t t e e s .
S o t h o s e m a t t e r s w ill b e t a k e n d ir e c t ly t o a C a b in e t m e e ti n g .
O b v io u s ly t h e P r e s i d e n t h a s to g iv e a p p r o v a l fo r - f o r th o s e m a t t e r s t o
c o m e d ir e c tl y t o C a b i n e t a n d n o t v i a C a b in e t S u b c o m m i t t e e s , b u t t h e
d e c is i o n s w il l t h e n f o l lo w t h e s a m e f o r m a t.

T h e r e w i ll h a v e t o b e a

p r o p e r C a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m t h a t s t a te s t h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a n d t h e n
C a b in e t a p p r o v e s t h o s e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s a n d t h e C a b in e t m i n u t e s w il l
20

t h e n in d ic a te t h a t t h e f o ll o w i n g d e c is i o n s w h i c h a r e r e c o m m e n d a t io n s
have been approved by Cabinet.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k y o u a n d t h e n j u s t b a c k t o y o u r e x p e r i e n c e o f

C a b in e t m e e ti n g s . W h a t is t h e s o u r c e o f t h a t e x p e r i e n c e a n d h o w lo n g
did it last for?
M R M A S E K O : W e l l m y e x p e r ie n c e in - i n - y o u - y o u a s s u m e t h e r o l e

Page 22 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
o f C E O G C I S a n d a u t o m a tic a lly y o u b e c o m e C a b i n e t S p o k e s p e r s o n a n d
t h e n y o u - y o u s i t i n - i n t h o s e C a b i n e t m e e ti n g s b u t b e c a u s e y o u n e e d
t o b e i n f o r m e d i n g r e a t d e t a i l a b o u t th e c o n t e n t s o f C a b i n e t d e c is i o n s .
I m a d e i t m y d u ty t o a ls o a tt e n d a s m a n y o f t h e C a b i n e t S u b c o m m i t te e
m e e ti n g s a s p o s s ib le , b e c a u s e i n - in m a n y o f th o s e p o lic y is s u e s
C a b in e t d o e s n o t h a v e ti m e t o g o th r o u g h d e t a i l e d d is c u s s i o n s o n e a c h
and every issue.
So

th e

debates

Subcommittee meetings.
10

a c t u a ll y

take

p la c e

in

the

Cabinet

S o I s a t i n t h o s e C a b i n e t S u b c o m m i t te e

m e e ti n g s s o t h a t b y th e ti m e a d e c is io n i s t a k e n a t C a b i n e t a n d I a m
e x p e c te d t o a n n o u n c e a n d t e ll t h e p u b l ic w h a t C a b in e t h a s d e c i d e d . I
w o u ld h a v e h a d i n s i g h t i n t o t h e r e a l r e a s o n w h y s u c h a d e c is io n w o u l d
have - would have been taken.
S o I r e c e iv e d f il e s o f a ll m e e ti n g s - C a b i n e t S u b c o m m i t t e e
m e e ti n g s i n a d v a n c e a n d I w o u l d r e c e iv e fi le s o f a ll C a b i n e t m e e ti n g s i n
a d v a n c e s o th a t I - I g e t r e a d y f o r - fo r t h o s e p a r tic u la r m e e ti n g s . S o
that is how the process worked.
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a s e k o i n th e l a s t m o m e n t s o f y o u r t e s ti m o n y y o u
s a i d y o u h a d r e c e iv e d a ll fil e s o f C a b i n e t m e e ti n g s .

20

I suspect you

m i g h t h a v e m e a n t t o s a y m e m o r a n d a . Is t h a t r ig h t ?
M R M A S E K O : W e l l b y f il e s I m e a n - y e s . A ll t h e C a b in e t m e m o r a n d u m
t h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n s u b m it t e d t o C a b in e t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w o u ld y o u r e c e iv e t h o s e m e m o r a n d a …
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o r r y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s .

Page 23 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tr y a s fa r a s p o s s ib le M r M a s e k o t o f a c e t h i s s id e a s
y o u a n s w e r th e q u e s t io n s .
MR MASEKO: Oh. Apologies.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I k n o w t h a t t h e - th e te n d e n c y is to l o o k a t th e p e r s o n
who is asking you questions.
M R M A S E K O : M y a p o l o g i e s s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k

you

C h a ir.

Mr M a s e k o

w o u ld

you

as

s p o k e s p e r s o n f o r C a b i n e t i n y o u r r o l e a s D G o f G C I S b e p r o v id e d w i t h
10

t h e C a b in e t m e m o r a n d a p r i o r t o a C a b in e t m e e ti n g ?
MR MASEKO:

A s C a b in e t S p o k e s p e r s o n C h a ir p e r s o n I r e c e iv e d th e

fi le s t h e s a m e ti m e a s a ll M i n is t e r s r e c e i v e .

So all the Cabinet

m e m o r a n d a t h a t w o u l d b e a p p e a r i n g a t t h e C a b i n e t m e e t i n g I w il l
r e c e i v e th e m a n d u s u a ll y if th e C a b i n e t m e e t in g is o n a W e d n e s d a y t h e
fi le s a r e d is tr ib u t e d b y M o n d a y a f t e r n o o n s o t h a t w e a l l h a v e a f u ll d a y
t o e n g a g e w it h a l l t h e m a tt e r s .
S o s h o r t a n s w e r to y o u r q u e s ti o n .

Th a t is c o r r e c t .

I do

r e c e i v e t h e f il e s i n a d v a n c e .
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

Th a n k y o u .

C h a ir I w i ll m o v e i n a m o m e n t t o t h e

e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a s m a n a g e d t o o b ta in in r e l a ti o n t o th e
p a r t ic u l a r m e e t in g o n 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 w h e n th e tr a n s f e r s o f M r M a s e k o
a n d Mr M a n y i w e r e d is c u s s e d , b u t i n a d v a n c e o f d o i n g th a t a n d j u s t to
g e t t h e b e n e fi t o f M r M a s e k o ’s e x p e r i e n c e o n t h i s m a t t e r.
I b e g le a v e t o h a n d u p a p r e - d e c l a s s i f ie d C a b in e t m i n u te t h a t
h a s c o m e b e f o r e t h e C o m m is s i o n in o t h e r e v i d e n c e . I t w a s i n f a c t t h e

Page 24 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
e v i d e n c e o f M in is t e r G o r d h a n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:
EXHIBIT M2.

It c o m e s f r o m h is s u p p le m e n t a r y b u n d l e w h ic h w a s

W e h a v e n o t i n c lu d e d i t i n th e s e b u n d l e s b e c a u s e i t

a c t u a ll y li v e s e ls e w h e r e i n t h e r e c o r d s o f t h e C o m m is s i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t i t is a n e x a m p le o f a d e c la s s i f ie d C a b in e t m in u t e
t h a t I w o u ld l ik e t o a s k Mr M a s e k o ’s a s s is t a n c e o n , b e c a u s e h is
t e s ti m o n y u n t il t h i s p o i n t h a s in d i c a t e d t o u s a p a r ti c u la r p r o c e d u r e f o r
10

w h a t is th e n n o te d i n t h e m i n u t e s a n d I w o u ld l ik e t o a s k h i m t o
c o m m e n t o n t h i s p a r ti c u l a r m in u te w it h th a t b a c k g r o u n d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: So if I may hand that up.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is fi n e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e w il l a ls o m a k e o n e a v a i la b le t o t h e w i tn e s s .
MR MASEKO: Thank you. I have got it.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u M s H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. S o ju s t f o r th e r e c o r d p u r p o s e s th is

20

is a n e x tr a c t o f p a g e s 5 9 a n d 6 0 o f E X H I B I T M f o r m o t h e r tw o w h ic h
w a s M i n i s t e r G o r d h a n ’s s u p p l e m e n ta r y b u n d l e a n d i t is a s I u n d e r s t a n d
fr o m h i s e v i d e n c e a d e c l a s s i fi e d C a b i n e t m in u t e o f t h e m e e t in g o f
3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 . Mr M a s e k o is t h is ty p e o f d o c u m e n t fa m i li a r t o y o u ?
MR MASEKO:

T h is - th is is th e fo r m a t.

Ye s . T h a t w a s u s e d w h e n I

was there.

Page 25 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c a ll h a v i n g s e e n t h is p a r t ic u l a r m in u t e ?
M R M A S E K O : N o t t h is p a r tic u la r o n e C h a i r. N o .
ADV HOFMEYR:

W e l l i f I m a y j u s t ta k e y o u t o f ir s t o f a l l p a r a g r a p h

5 .1 . 2 , b e c a u s e in y o u r e v i d e n c e a m o m e n t a g o y o u i n d ic a te d th a t o n
c e r t a i n o c c a s i o n s C a b in e t n o t e s v a r i o u s t h i n g s .

What is recorded at

p a r a g r a p h 1 . - s o r r y - 5 .1 . 2 ?
M R M A S E K O : W e ll th e m i n u t e s a y s :
“ C a b i n e t n o t e d th a t th e M i n i s t e r o f Fi n a n c e w i ll b e
p r o v i d in g a d e t a il e d b r i e fi n g o n th e a b o v e m a t te r in
10

due course.”
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d a g a in a t 5 . 2 .2 ?
MR MASEKO: In 5.2.2 it says:
“ C a b i n e t n o te d t h e b r i e fi n g b y t h e M i n is t e r o f
Fi n a n c e . ”
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d h o w is t h a t d i ff e r e n t f r o m w h a t i s r e c o r d e d a t 5 .3
on that page?
M R M A S E K O : W e ll w h a t - w h a t t h e m i n u t e s - C a b i n e t m in u te s n o r m a lly
d o i s th e y d o n o t in c l u d e t h e t o t a l s u b s t a n c e o f a - o f a C a b i n e t
m e m o r a n d u m , b e c a u s e o f s p a c e a n d a ll o f t h o s e k i n d s o f t h i n g s .

20

So

n o t in g m e a n s t h a t c e r ta i n m a t te r s w e r e b r o u g h t to t h e a t te n ti o n o f
C a b in e t . S o th a t is w h y it s i m p ly n o te s t h a t t h e C a b in e t is a w a r e o f th e
b r i e fi n g t h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n c o n t a in e d in th e C a b i n e t m e m o m e m o r a n d u m a n d t h e d i ff e r e n c e b e t w e e n n o ti n g a n d a p p r o v e d w h ic h
c o v e r e d u n d e r 5 .3 is t h a t i t t h e n s a y s t h e - t h e p r e v i o u s t h i n g s w e r e
n o t e d , b u t o n t h e s e p a r tic u la r m a t te r s C a b i n e t d e c id e d a n d th e t e r m

Page 26 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
u s e d i s e it h e r a p p r o v e d o r r e s o lv e d , b u t t h a t is w h e r e i t s a y s t h e s e
matters were decided upon.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . S o i f y o u c o u l d r e a d i n t o th e r e c o r d w h a t
C a b in e t a p p r o v e d u n d e r 5 .3 a s i t is r e c o r d e d t h e r e ?
M R M A S E K O : W e ll th is m i n u t e s a y s :
“ C a b i n e t a p p r o v e d t h e a p p o in t m e n t o f a p e r m a n e n t
B o a r d c o m p r i s i n g o f th e - o f t h e f o l l o w in g p e o p l e . ”
T h i s is a p p o in t m e n t o f th e B o a r d o f t h e S o u t h A fr i c a n
A ir w a y s . D o I n e e d t o r e a d th e n a m e s o r n o t n e c e s s a r y ?
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : N o . T h a t is n o t n e c e s s a r y. J u s t t h e e s s e n c e o f t h e
d e c is i o n .
MR MASEKO:

Ja.

S o w e c a n a ls o m o v e o n .

I t a p p r o v e d t h a t th e

p e r s o n b y t h e n a m e o f M s D M y e n i b e r e a p p o i n t e d a s C h a ir p e r s o n o f
t h e B o a r d f o r th e f o l lo w in g p e r i o d . I t t h e n a p p r o v e d t h a t a - a c e r ta in
M s R a m a s i a b e a p p o i n te d a s D e p u ty C h a i r ma n - C h a i r p e r s o n a n d t h e n
it s a y s :
“ N o t e d th a t t h e n e w B o a r d w i ll b e ta s k e d t o w o r k o n
m e a s u r e s to b e i m p l e m e n t e d w i t h a v ie w t o p la c i n g
S A A i n a s tr o n g e r p o s i t io n i n te r ms o f g o v e r n a n c e
20

a n d i m p r o v i n g t h e l ik e l ih o o d o f p o s s i b l e fi n a n c i a l
r e c o v e r y a n d a p p r o v e th a t C a b in e t b e b r i e f e d i n d u e
course.”
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u a n d i f y o u w il l r e tu r n t o p a g i n a te d p a g e 5 9 .
T h a t is t h e f ir s t p a g e o f t h e d o c u m e n t h a n d e d u p t o y o u .

Can you

p l e a s e t e ll u s a b o u t w h a t a p p e a r s a s a h e a d in g a t p a r a g r a p h 5 . 3 a n d

Page 27 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t h e n w h a t is in d ic a t e d b e lo w th a t h e a d i n g ?
M R M A S E K O : O k a y. Ar e w e b a c k t o a n n e x u r e … ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e b a c k to t h e d o c u m e n t y o u w e r e w o r k i n g o n . J u s t
t h e fi r s t p a g e o f i t . S o r r y. T h e o n e t h a t w a s h a n d e d u p .
CHAIRPERSON: The Cabinet document.
ADV HOFMEYR: The Cabinet memorandum.
M R M A S E K O : O h . J a , t h e v e r y s a m e . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . I h a v e t a k e n y o u b a c k a p a g e .
M R M A S E K O : O k a y.
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

W h a t I a m i n te r e s t e d i n n o w is y o u r a s s i s t a n c e w it h

the heading that appears at paragraph 5.3 …
MR MASEKO: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d th e n y o u r a s s is t a n c e in u n d e r s ta n d i n g w h a t i s

r e fl e c t e d in b r a c k e ts a f te r t h a t h e a d i n g i m m e d i a t e ly b e l o w i t .
MR MASEKO:

O k a y.

The

heading

say

“ A p p o in t m e n t

R e a p p o in t m e n t o f D i r e c t o r s t o th e B o a r d o f S A A . ”
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n th e s m a ll t e x t b e n e a th t h a t in b r a c k e ts .
MR MASEKO: Right at the bottom?
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o . J u s t u n d e r t h e h e a d in g .
20

MR MASEKO: Oh. It says:
“ C a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m n u m b e r f iv e o f 2 0 1 6 . D a te d
24 August 2016.
Fi n a n c e

referred

Fi le n u m b e r M 2 1 3 5 .
to

item

of

M in is te r o f

minutes

dated

2 2 O c to b e r 2 0 1 4 . ”
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d a s s is t u s w i th w h a t t h a t m e a n s p l e a s e .

Page 28 of 179

and

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
MR MASEKO:

T h is b a s i c a ll y i s a n a t t e m p t to m a k e s u r e t h a t t h e r e is

proper cross-referencing.

S o if a d e c i s i o n is t a k e n t o d a y w h o e v e r is

r e a d in g t h e s e m i n u t e s m u s t k n o w th a t t h e r e i s r e l e v a n t i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t
is c o n t a i n e d in - in a d i ff e r e n t - m i n u t e s o f a d i ffe r e n t m e e t i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w o u ld i t b e c o r r e c t t o s a y t h a t t h e - t h e f i n e p r i n t
u n d e r th e h e a d i n g is s i m p l y t o te ll t h e r e a d e r w h e r e t o fi n d m o r e
in f o r m a ti o n a b o u t t h is is s u e ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d is t h e r e f e r e n c e to C a b in e t m e m o r a n d u m t h e r e i s
t h a t r e l a t e d t o y o u r e a r l ie r t e s t i m o n y.

The memorandum that would

h a v e p r e c e d e d th e d e c is i o n t h a t w a s b e i n g s o u g h t f r o m C a b i n e t?
M R M A S E K O : I th in k s o C h a ir. T h a t w o u l d b e th e r e l e v a n t a n d i f I a m
lo o k in g a t t h e d a t e s 2 4 A u g u s t a n d t h is
3 1 A u g u s t.

m i n u t e is r e f e r r in g t o

S o w h a t th a t w o u l d m e a n is t h a t t h e C a b i n e t m e m o r a n d a

w a s t a b l e d a t a C a b in e t S u b c o m m i t t e e w h i c h to o k p l a c e o n t h e 2 4 t h a n d
t h e m a t t e r is n o w c o m i n g t o C a b in e t f o r a d e c is i o n o n 3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 .
ADV HOFMEYR: And then that reference to the previous minutes as I
u n d e r s t a n d i t i s s o t h a t t h e r e a d e r c a n l o c a te a r e le v a n t o th e r m e e t in g 20

m i n u t e s o f m e e t in g th a t r e l a te d to t h i s t o p i c . Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MASEKO:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.

S o m y r e a d i n g o f t h is i s t h a t

m a t t e r w o u ld h a v e s e r v e d a t a C a b i n e t m e e ti n g - a g a i n a t a C a b i n e t
m e e ti n g .

A u g u s t , O c t o b e r.

Ja.

Ja.

S o i t h a d r e f e r r e d t o a n o th e r

d is c u s s io n th a t to o k p l a c e a t t h e m e e t in g o f 2 2 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.

Page 29 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON:

Th e d a te o f t h e 3 1 s t - I s e e w e h a v e t h r e e m ic s

M s H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e d a te o f 3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 w h ic h a p p e a r s a t t h e t o p
w o u ld th a t r e p r e s e n t t h e d a t e o f t h e m e e ti n g to w h ic h th e s e m in u te s
relate?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s C h a ir. I a m s e e in g th i s f o r th e fi r s t ti m e , b u t I t h i n k
that is how …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
10

MR MASEKO: Remembering the format then.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h e fo r m a t . J a .
MR MASEKO:

I t h i n k t h e d a t e a t t h e t o p w o u ld b e d a t e o f a C a b i n e t

m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:

Th e 2 4 t h w o u l d h a v e r e f e r r e d t o t h e d a t e o f a C a b in e t

S u b c o m m i t t e e m e e ti n g w h e r e t h is m a t te r w a s s e r v e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : B e f o r e it a p p e a r e d o n t h e a g e n d a o f t h e m e e t i n g o f t h e of the 31st.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : T h e n in t h a t p a r a g r a p h w i t h th e s m a ll le t t e r s …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

R e f e r r i n g t o a m e e t in g o f 2 2 O c t o b e r 2 0 1 4 t h a t m e a n s

t h a t th e m a t te r w o u l d h a v e s e r v e d a t a C a b in e t m e e t i n g a l m o s t t w o
y e a r s p r io r t o t h i s p a r t ic u l a r m e e ti n g a n d t h a t t h a t m e e t in g w o u ld h a v e

Page 30 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t a k e n d e c i s i o n s a n d g i v e n in s t r u c t i o n s to M i n is t e r o f Fi n a n c e t o d o w h a t
is c o n t a i n e d in t h i s m e m o r a n d u m .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n o n e fi n a l fo ll o w u p in r e l a ti o n t o t h a t s m a ll
text.

I t a p p e a r s th a t t h e m e m o r a n d u m is g i v e n a n u m b e r.

Is th a t

something you can assist us with?
MR MASEKO:

That

is

correct

C h a ir p e r s o n .

Every

Cabinet

m e m o r a n d u m is g iv e n a - a n u m b e r a n d a d a te a n d - s o t h a t t h e r e ' s
p r o p e r r e fe r e n c e i n th e fu t u r e .
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : Mr M a s e k o if w e c a n a s k y o u t o c a s t y o u r m in d b a c k
t o th e m e e ti n g o f 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 a t w h ic h t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s
m a d e o f y o u r tr a n s f e r. W e r e y o u p r o v id e d w i t h a C a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m
in r e la t io n to y o u r tr a n s f e r o r t h e tr a n s f e r o f Mr M a n y i i n a d v a n c e o f
t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M R M A S E K O : N o s ir a n d I - I n e v e r s a w a n y o f t h o s e C a b i n e t m e m o s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Chair

the

Commission

has

u n d e r ta k e n

v a r io u s

in v e s t i g a t io n s i n t h e l i g h t o f Mr M a s e k o a n d M r Z u m a ’s e v i d e n c e a b o u t
t h e d e c i s i o n to tr a n s f e r Mr M a s e k o a n d M r M a n y i .

I t c u l m i n a te d i n

c o n fir m a t io n l a s t e v e n i n g fr o m t h e O ffi c e o f t h e Pr e s id e n c y t h a t t h e
20

C a b in e t m i n u te s f o r 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 h a v e b e e n c o n s i d e r e d a n d th e r e is
n o r e f e r e n c e a n y w h e r e i n t h o s e m i n u t e s t o th e tr a n s f e r s o f M r M a s e k o
o r Mr M a n y i .
C h a ir i t i s in a s l i g h t ly d i ff e r e n t c a t e g o r y t o t h e d o c u m e n ts w e
a r e w a i t in g f o r fr o m t h e D P S A , b e c a u s e i f I c a n j u s t g iv e a li t tl e b i t o f
background to the process.

As you would have seen and Mr Maseko

Page 31 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
y o u c a n s e e o n th e p a g e t h a t I h a v e h a n d e d u p . In o r d e r f o r C a b i n e t
m i n u t e s t o b e p r o v i d e d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n t h e y m u s t b e d e c l a s s i fi e d .
Yo u w il l s e e t h a t th e r e is a s t a m p o n p a g e 5 9 i n f r o n t o f u s
w h ic h b e a r s a s t a m p i n d ic a ti n g d e c la s s i f ie d . S o t h e r e is a p r o c e s s t h a t
t h e C o m m i s s i o n e n g a g e s in - i n o r d e r to h a v e C a b in e t m in u t e s
d e c l a s s i fi e d a n d p a r t o f t h a t p r o c e s s is t o id e n t i fy t h e p a r tic u la r a s p e c t
o f t h e m i n u te in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h d e c l a s s i fi c a ti o n is s o u g h t .
S o t h o s e w e r e th e e x t e n t o f t h e e n g a g e m e n t s w i t h t h e O ffi c e
o f th e Pr e s id e n c y a n d a s r e c e n t ly a s l a s t n ig h t t h e u p s h o t o f t h e ir
10

in q u ir ie s i n t o th is m a t t e r is t h a t th e r e i s n o d o c u m e n t t o d e c la s s i f y
b e c a u s e t h e m in u t e s o f 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 d o n o t c o n t a in a n y i te m
r e c o r d i n g a d e c i s i o n o f C a b i n e t a b o u t t h e tr a n s f e r s o f M r M a s e k o a n d
M r M a n y i . N o w i t h a p p e n e d a s r e c e n tly a s l a s t n i g h t .
T h e O ffi c e o f th e P r e s i d e n c y w a s i n fo r m e d l a s t n ig h t t h a t I
w o u ld m a k e t h is i n d ic a ti o n t o d a y p u b l ic a l ly i n t h e h e a r in g a n d t h e y
h a v e b e e n r e q u e s t e d t o p r o v i d e a n a ffi d a v it to th e C o m m i s s io n
c o n fir m i n g t h e s e fa c ts , b u t g i v e n t h e ir r e l e v a n c e t o t h e e v id e n c e o f
M r M a s e k o w e in d i c a t e d to t h e O ff ic e th a t w e w o u l d d is c l o s e t o d a y w h a t
t h e ir in v e s t i g a t io n s h a d r e v e a l e d a b o u t t h o s e m i n u t e s a n d s o I d o s o

20

for the purposes of the record and also to be able now to ask
M r M a s e k o c e r ta in f u r t h e r q u e s ti o n s a b o u t t h a t m e e ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o w h a t y o u h a v e b e e n t o l d b y t h e P r e s id e n c y i s t h a t
t h e y h a v e l o o k e d a t t h e m in u t e s o r d o c u m e n t s w h i c h w o u l d c o n t a i n a n y
C a b in e t d e c is i o n i f th e r e w a s a n y r e l a ti n g t o Mr M a s e k o ’s t r a n s f e r fr o m
G C I S t o D P S A o n o r a b o u t 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 a n d …

Page 32 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir. 2 F e b r u a r y w a s th e d a t e o f t h e m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: 2 February?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d t h e y h a v e f o u n d n o t h i n g r e f le c t i n g s u c h a

d e c is i o n ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

I n d e e d a n d s u c h t o b e a b s o l u t e ly c l e a r i t w a s a

r e q u e s t t h a t th e y s o u r c e t h e m i n u t e s …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Of the 2nd - the docum ent akin to the document we

are looking at.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Fo r t h e C a b i n e t m e e ti n g o n 2 F e b r u a r y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d t o d e c l a s s i fy a n y a s p e c t o f t h o s e m i n u t e s w h ic h
d is c l o s e d a d e c i s i o n o f C a b i n e t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d in d e e d w e w e n t b r o a d e r a n y r e fe r e n c e a t a l l …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : To t h e tr a n s fe r s o f M r M a s e k o a n d Mr M a n y i …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e in f o r m a t io n w e h a v e b e e n g iv e n i s t h a t t h a t
does not appear …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

Page 33 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
A D V H O F M E Y R : O n t h e m i n u te s o f 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d t h e r e w il l b e a n a ff i d a v i t p r o v i d e d t o th e

C o m m i s s i o n t o t h a t e ff e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : H o p e f u lly in t h e c o u r s e o f to d a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

S o i f I m a y j u s t c o m e b a c k th e n M r M a s e k o t o

M r Zu m a ’s e v i d e n c e , b e c a u s e M r Z u m a ’s e v id e n c e w a s t h a t C a b i n e t
10

t a k e s t h e d e c is io n to tr a n s fe r D G s a n d in p a r t ic u l a r i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u
h is e v i d e n c e w a s w e t a k e th e d e c i s i o n .

C h a ir i t - i t m a y j u s t b e

p e r t i n e n t . I t - I r e f e r e n c e d it e a r l ie r.
I t is a t p a g e 2 8 o f th e tr a n s c r i p t o f M r Z u m a ’s e v i d e n c e o n
1 6 J u ly a n d i t i s t h e r e t h a t M r Zu m a o n t h e tr a n s c r ip t is r e f le c te d to
h a v e s a id i n t h e c o n t e x t o f a s e r ie s o f d is c u s s io n s fr o m m y le a r n e d
fr i e n d - M r P r e t o r i u s - a b o u t th is v e r y tr a n s f e r o f M r M a s e k o fr o m G C I S
t o D P S A a n d M r Z u m a a b o u t l in e e i g h t o n t h a t p a g e s a y s :
“ … a n d th e n t h e C a b i n e t w ill - w e t a k e t h e d e c is i o n . ”
Mr Maseko …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

I n r e l a ti o n to 2 J u l y - 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 C a b i n e t

m e e ti n g w e r e y o u in a t te n d a n c e fo r t h a t m e e t in g ?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s C h a i r p e r s o n . I w a s - I w a s p r e s e n t i n t h e m e e t i n g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o y o u r e c o r d - r e c a ll C a b i n e t t a k i n g a n y d e c is io n i n
r e l a ti o n t o y o u r tr a n s f e r o r Mr M a n y i ’s tr a n s f e r o n t h a t d a y ?

Page 34 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
MR MASEKO:

C h a ir p e r s o n w h a t t r a n s p i r e d o n t h a t d a y i s th a t a n

a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s m a d e a t t h e C a b in e t m e e ti n g b y M i n i s te r C h a b a n e .
T h e r e w a s n o d is c u s s i o n o r d e c is i o n a n d i t w a s d o n e r i g h t a t t h e e n d o f
t h e m e e ti n g .

A s - a s o n e o f t h e a n n o u n c e m e n ts .

President Zuma

request

-

informed

Cabinet

T h a t is w h e n
and

request

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e t o m a k e a n a n n o u n c e m e n t, b u t I w a s a t t h e m e e t i n g .
T h e r e w a s n o d is c u s s io n . I t w a s s i m p ly a n a n n o u n c e m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : J u s t t o g o b a c k t o a q u e s t io n t h a t I t h i n k M s H o f m e y r
asked you but I want to make sure I understand.

Yo u w i ll - y o u s a i d

t h a t y o u w o u l d r e c e iv e th e m e m o r a n d a o r d o c u m e n t a ti o n t h a t M i n i s te r s
w o u ld r e c e i v e a h e a d o f a p a r ti c u la r C a b i n e t m e e ti n g b e i n g d o c u m e n ts
t h a t th e y m u s t c o n s i d e r i n p r e p a r a t io n fo r t h e m e e ti n g …
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d in r e g a r d t o th e m e e ti n g o f 2 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 11 d i d
y o u r e c e iv e a n y d o c u m e n ts a t a l l a h e a d o f t h a t C a b in e t m e e t i n g th a t
r e l a t e d t o is s u e s t h a t w o u ld b e d is c u s s e d a t t h a t m e e ti n g ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON:

W a s th e r e a n y d o c u m e n t a m o n g t h e d o c u m e n ts t h a t

y o u r e c e iv e d a h e a d o f th a t m e e ti n g t h a t r e l a t e d t o y o u r tr a n s f e r o r
M r M a n y i ’s tr a n s fe r ?
M R M A S E K O : T h e r e w a s n o s u c h d o c u m e n t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a s e k o i f w e c a n t h e n g o t o th e n e x t a s p e c t o f

Page 35 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M r Zu m a ’s e v i d e n c e o n w h ic h I w o u l d lik e y o u r c o m m e n t . M r Z u m a s a i d
in t h e tr a n s c r ip t o f 1 6 J u ly 2 0 1 9 a n d fo r t h e r e c o r d th e r e fe r e n c e s a r e
a t p a g e s 2 6 , 5 0 , 5 1 a n d 5 2 . H e s a i d th a t t h e r e w a s s h i f t in g a r o u n d o f
D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a ls a t t h e t i m e o f t h e m e e t in g o f 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 .
C a n y o u a s s is t u s o n t h a t a t a ll ? Ar e y o u a w a r e o f D i r e c t o r G e n e r a ls g e n e r a ll y h a v e b e e n s h i f te d a r o u n d a t t h a t p e r io d i n ti m e ?
M R M A S E K O : T h e r e m a y h a v e b e e n c a s e s o f D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a ls b e in g
m o v e d a r o u n d , b u t I a m n o t a w a r e o f a g e n e r a l s i tu a ti o n w h e r e p e o p l e
w e r e m o v e d fr o m o n e d e p a r t m e n t to - t o a n o t h e r, b u t a s I s a y I c a n n o t
10

g iv e a d e f in i ti v e a n s w e r to s a y th e r e w e r e n o m o v e m e n ts a r o u n d a t t h e
ti m e , b u t ja .
ADV HOFMEYR:

O n 2 Fe b r u a r y i s i t c o r r e c t th a t t h e r e w e r e a t l e a s t

t w o m o v e s o f D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a ls ?
M R M A S E K O : I s u b s e q u e n tly b e c a m e a w a r e th a t t h e r e w e r e t w o m o v e s
o f D ir e c to r - G e n e r a l s . Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: And that was who?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t w a s m y - my s e l f a n d M r M a n y i .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . Mr M a s e k o a r e y o u a w a r e o f t h e e v i d e n c e
t h a t h a s b e e n p r e s e n t e d t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n s in c e th e e v i d e n c e o f
20

M r Zu m a o f Mr S i m o n s a n d M r H lo n g w a n e ?
M R M A S E K O : C h a i r p e r s o n I a m a w a r e th a t t h e r e w e r e s u b s e q u e n t - ja
- s u b m is s io n s b y t h o s e t w o g e n t l e m e n .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

T h a t r e l a te d to t h e q u e s ti o n o f w h e t h e r

M r Zu m a h a d a c c o r d in g t o y o u r o r i g i n a l e v i d e n c e c o n t a c t e d Mr M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w h e n h e w a s a b r o a d . C a n y o u t a k e u s t h r o u g h w h a t

Page 36 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t h e s o u r c e o f y o u r in f o r m a t io n is i n r e la ti o n to t h e c o n t a c t b e tw e e n
M r Zu m a a n d M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e ?
MR MASEKO:

Well

my

information

came

d ir e c tl y

fr o m

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e w h o w a s m y s u p e r v is o r a t t h e ti m e a n d t h a t i s v i a a
c a l l t h a t I m e n t io n in m y a ff id a v i t. W h e n h e r e q u e s te d a m e e ti n g - a n
u r g e n t m e e t in g . I t w a s o n - o n th e S u n d a y. H e s a i d w e n e e d to m e e t
u r g e n tl y o n th e M o n d a y m o r n in g .
H e d i d n o t d iv u lg e t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e - o f t h e m e e ti n g , b u t w e
a g r e e d t o m e e t a n d w e d i d m e e t t h e f o ll o w i n g M o n d a y 8 o ’ c l o c k w a s
10

t h e t i m e a n d i n th a t m e e ti n g th a t is w h e n h e t o l d m e t h a t h e h a d
r e c e i v e d a c a l l fr o m Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a w h o t o l d h i m t h a t I n e e d e d to b e
m o v e d fr o m G C I S . H e - h e w a s q u i t e s p e c if ic .
H e s a y s h e h a d r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m t h e P r e s i d e n t a n d th e
m e s s a g e fr o m t h e c a l l w a s t h a t b y th e ti m e t h e Pr e s id e n t c o m e s b a c k
in t o t h e c o u n tr y I s h o u ld n o t b e t h e C O o f G C I S .

S o t h a t is w h y t h e

m a t t e r n e e d e d t o b e r e s o l v e d a s s p e e d il y a s p o s s ib le .

So I can end

t h e r e j u s t t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s ti o n h o w d id I k n o w.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u fo r t h a t . M r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u - I a m s o r r y. D i d - d id y o u r e m e m b e r w h e t h e r
20

h e - t h a t is M r C h a b a n e - s a i d t o y o u t h a t w h e n t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t
c a l l e d t o t a lk to h i m a b o u t t h i s is s u e .

He was furious.

I - I seem to

h a v e p ic k e d th a t u p f r o m s o m e w h e r e , b u t I w a n t t o c le a r t h a t . Is - i s
that something that …?
MR MASEKO:

C h a ir p e r s o n , c a n I a s k y o u a q u e s ti o n ?

furious? Mr Chabane or the President.

Page 37 of 179

Who was

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON: The former President.
M R M A S E K O : O h , t h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. I sort of …
MR MASEKO:

I - I g o t a s e n s e fr o m M i n is t e r C h a b a n e t h a t t h e - th e

P r e s i d e n t h a d n o t g iv e n h i m - h i m a n o p t i o n . H e n e e d e d t o i m p l e m e n t
t h e d e c i s i o n t o - to m o v e m e fr o m G C I S .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : T h e o n l y e m o t i o n I c o u l d r e l a te t o w a s o n Mr C h a b a n e ’s
p a r t t h a t h e s e e m e d to b e d is a p p o i n t - d is a p p o in t e d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : b y th e i n s tr u c t io n th a t h e h a d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : R e c e iv e d , b u t n o n e t h e l e s s h e h a d t o i m p le m e n t i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . S o - s o i t w o u ld h a v e - I w o u ld n o t h a v e s e e n i t
in y o u r e v i d e n c e if I s a w a n y t h i n g a lo n g th o s e li n e s ?
M R M A S E K O : N o C h a ir p e r s o n . I t w o u l d n o t b e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MR MASEKO: No.
CHAIRPERSON:

20

S o - s o t h e o n ly e m o ti o n a s y o u s a y w a s t h a t y o u -

y o u c o u l d t e l l t h a t M r C h a b a n e w a s d i s a p p o i n t e d a b o u t t h a t tu r n o f
events?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. A lr i g h t . T h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:

J u s t a s y o u h a v e b e e n e n g a g i n g w i th M r M a s e k o .

h a v e c a s t m y e y e o v e r Mr M a s e k o ’s p r e v io u s a ffi d a v it .

Page 38 of 179

I

I do not an

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
in d i c a t io n th e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : J u s t s o t h a t w e k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m u s t - y e s . I m u s t ju s t c h e c k w h e r e I m a y h a v e …
ADV HOFMEYR: Where it comes from?
C H A I R P E R S O N : I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d s o m e e v i d e n c e …
A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t i t is i m p o r ta n t th a t i t b e c l e a r e d .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

Thank you.

M r M a s e k o i f w e c a n th e n d e a l j u s t a

li t tl e b i t m o r e w it h d a t e s , b e c a u s e o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f t h e n e x t t w o d a y s
it is g o in g t o b e c o m e c le a r h o w i m p o r t a n t a c c u r a c y a b o u t d a t e s a r o u n d
t h is t i m e is . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r t e s t i m o n y a m o m e n t o r s o a g o to b e t h a t
y o u r e c e iv e d a c a l l fr o m M i n i s te r C h a b a n e to s c h e d u l e a m e e t i n g a n d I
understand your evidence to be you met the next date at 08:00 am on
t h e M o n d a y. Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h e n th e n d id y o u r e c e i v e th e c a l l ?
MR MASEKO:

I

-

the

call

fr o m

-

I

r e c e iv e d

the

c a ll

fr o m

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e th e S u n d a y a f te r n o o n p r i o r to t h e M o n d a y.
20

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u a n d j u s t s o t h a t w e c a n t h e d a t e s r i g h t.

T h e S u n d a y t h a t p r e c e d e d t h e C a b i n e t m e e ti n g o n 2 F e b r u a r y w a s
S u n d a y 3 0 J a n u a r y. Is t h a t t h e d a te y o u a r e s a y i n g o n w h ic h y o u w e r e
called?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e n y o u m e t o n M o n d a y. T h a t w o u ld b e 3 1 J a n u a r y.

Page 39 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

And

the

Cabinet

m e e t in g

that

we

have

been

d is c u s s in g w a s t h e W e d n e s d a y - 2 F e b r u a r y. Is th a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d y o u g e t a n u n d e r s t a n d i n g fr o m M r C h a b a n e a s to
w h e n h e h a d r e c e i v e d t h e c a ll fo r - fr o m th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t ?
W h e t h e r h e h a d r e c e iv e d i t t h e s a m e d a y o r t h e d a y b e fo r e o r is t h a t
10

something that you did not gather?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir, I - I t r i e d t o r e m e m b e r t h e c o n v e r s a t io n . W e - w e
d i d n o t s e e m to h a v e d is c u s s e d w h e n e x a c tl y h e r e c e iv e d t h e c a l l …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : Fr o m P r e s i d e n t Z u m a , b u t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:

W h e n w e w e r e h a v i n g th e d is c u s s i o n i t b e c a m e c l e a r

t h a t t h e c a ll h a d b e e n m a d e r e c e n tly, i t h a d b e e n t h e S a tu r d a y, t h e
Fr id a y, it w a s S u n d a y . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, it was some day before.
20

MR MASEKO:

B u t it w a s n e w in f o r m a ti o n .

A n d I a m s a y in g t h a t

b e c a u s e I d o n ’ t t h i n k t h e M i n is t e r w o u l d h a v e s a t w it h s u c h i n fo r m a ti o n ,
if h e h a d t h e i n f o r m a t i o n f o r l o n g e r th a n a w e e k .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I g u e s s e s p e c ia ll y if t h e in s tr u c ti o n w a s a c t

u r g e n tl y.
MR MASEKO:

Ye s .

Page 40 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h i s m a tt e r.
MR MASEKO:

T h a t is c o r r e c t .

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:

C h a ir i t i s r e l e v a n t a t t h is p o i n t to a g a in a le r t y o u to

f u r th e r in v e s ti g a t io n s t h a t h a v e b e e n d o n e o n r e la t e d m a t te r s a n d t h a t
is in s o f a r a s M r Z u m a ’s t r a v e l a r o u n d t h is p e r i o d i s c o n c e r n e d , b u t
b e f o r e I g o th e r e M r M a s e k o j u s t r e m i n d u s a g a i n i f y o u w il l, w h a t w a s
s a i d b y M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a b o u t t h e w h e r e a b o u ts o f M r Zu m a a s h e
r e l a y e d h is c o n v e r s a ti o n w it h M r Zu m a t o y o u ?
10

MR MASEKO:

H e i n fo r m e d m e t h a t th e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w a s a t a

s u m m i t , a n A f r i c a n U n i o n H e a d s o f S t a te S u m m i t i n A d d i s A b a b a a n d h e
w a s c o m i n g b a c k I th i n k t h e M o n d a y th e 3 1 s t o r th e 1 s t b u t h e w a s o n
h is w a y b a c k fr o m th e S u m m i t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d th a t C a b i n e t m e e ti n g o f t h e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y h a d

t h a t b e e n s c h e d u l e d fo r s o m e t i m e .
MR MASEKO:

T h a t w a s a n o r m a l c a b in e t m e e ti n g s c h e d u l e d y e s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:

Th e r e w o u ld n o r m a ll y b e a c a b in e t m e e ti n g e v e r y

W e d n e s d a y, i s t h a t r i g h t ?
20

MR MASEKO:

N o , n o c a b i n e t m e e ti n g s a r e ta k i n g p l a c e f o r t n i g h tly,

b u t t h e r e ’s a s c h e d u l e o f c a b in e t m e e ti n g s o r a f u l l y e a r, s o t h e r e ’s a
c a l e n d a r.
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d w h e n t h e y d o t a k e p l a c e it ’s n o r m a ll y o n a

W e d n e s d a y.
MR MASEKO:

It ’s n o r m a lly o n a W e d n e s d a y y e s .

Page 41 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y, a lr ig h t .

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h e r e i s a n a ffi d a v it t h a t h a s b e e n o b t a i n e d fr o m a n

o ffic i a l w i th i n t h e e m p l o y o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a ir s a b o u t th e
tr a v e l o f M r Z u m a o v e r t h is p e r i o d .
it c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 1 5 8 .

Yo u w ill f in d i t in E X H I B I T N N 5 a n d

C h a ir t h is is a n a ff id a v i t t h a t w e s u b m i t

s h o u l d b e p r o v i s i o n a ll y r e c e iv e d a s e v i d e n c e in t h e C o m m i s s io n e r,
w e ’r e n o t a w a r e o f a n y t h i n g c o n t e n ti o u s i n i t , o f c o u r s e t h a t d e c is i o n
c a n b e r e v i s i t e d in d u e c o u r s e , b u t i t i s a n a ffi d a v it t h a t h a s b e e n
p r o d u c e d p u r s u a n t to t h e C o m m i s s i o n s e e k i n g t o e s ta b l is h t h e t r a v e l
10

m o v e m e n ts o f Mr Z u m a a n d o t h e r s w h o m a y h a v e b e e n tr a v e l li n g w i th
him.
C h a ir I d o n ’ t t h i n k i t i s n e c e s s a r y t o g o t o th e d e t a il o f th e
a ffi d a v i t e x c e p t t o i n d ic a t e t h a t t h e r e a p p e a r s to h a v e b e e n a n e r r o r in
t h e d e p a r t m e n t a l r e c o r d s . T h e e r r o r is a s f o l lo w s , i t s h o w s , t h e r e c o r d
s h o w t h a t M r Zu m a a r r iv e d a t W a t e r k lo o f A ir b a s e o n t h e 2 5 t h o f J a n u a r y
2 0 11 a n d t h e n a r r iv e d a g a i n a t t h e Wa t e r k l o o f A ir b a s e o n t h e 1 s t o f
F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 , th a t w a s f u r th e r i n t e r r o g a te d a n d t h e u p s h o t o f Mr
G e l d e r b l o m ’s a ff i d a v i t w h i c h c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 5 8 is t h a t th a t d o e s
a p p e a r t o h a v e b e e n a n e r r o r i n t h e r e c o r d s a n d w h a t h e c o n fir m s is

20

t h a t it a p p e a r s t h a t t h e r e w a s a fl ig h t o u t o n th e 2 5 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 11 , i t
w a s a fl i g h t d e p a r ti n g f r o m S o u t h A fr ic a h e a d e d t o S w i tz e r l a n d a n d t h e n
t h e n e x t r e c o r d i n th e d e p a r t m e n t o f H o m e A ff a ir s r e c o r d s is a r e t u r n
fl ig h t o n t h e 1 s t o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 w h ic h a s w e h a v e M r M a s e k o ’s
e v i d e n c e is t h e d a y b e f o r e t h e s c h e d u l e d c a b i n e t m e e ti n g .
S o t h a t g iv e s u s s o m e g u i d a n c e a s t o t i m e fr a m e s , a t l e a s t

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
in s o f a r a s M r M a s e k o ’s e v i d e n c e i s c o n c e r n e d a s w e ll a s t h e e v id e n c e
o f M r S i m o n s a n d Mr S h l o n g w a n e .
CHAIRPERSON:

N o t h a t a ffi d a v i t w il l b e a d m i t t e d a n d o b v i o u s l y i f

a n y b o d y i n c lu d in g t h e f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t w i s h e s t o c h a ll e n g e i t t h e y m a y
d o s o , b u t I th i n k i t is h i g h ly u n lik e ly t h a t t h e r e w il l b e a d is p u te a b o u t
w h e n h e m a y h a v e le f t S o u t h A fr ic a a n d w h e n h e m a y h a v e c o m e b a c k
around that time.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

M r M a s e k o I w o u ld th e n li k e to

m o v e to t h e n e x t t o p ic w h ic h i s y o u r e x i t f r o m D P S A w h e r e y o u h a d
10

b e e n m o v e d o n t h e 2 n d o f Fe b r u a r y 2 0 11 .

I a m g o i n g to p ic k u p a

s e r ie s o f d e t a i ls a b o u t th a t in s o f a r a s y o u h a v e b e e n a s k e d f o r y o u r
c o m m e n t i n r e s p o n s e to t h e a ffi d a v i t th a t w a s r e c e iv e d fr o m f o r m e r
M i n is t e r B a l o y i , s o p le a s e k n o w I a m g o in g to c o m e t o a ll o f th a t i n d u e
c o u r s e b u t w h a t I w o u ld lik e to f o c u s o n a t t h e m o m e n t i s w h a t y o u
w e r e p a i d w h e n y o u l e f t D P S A , b e c a u s e it is a m a t t e r th a t c o m e s u p
a c t u a ll y i n y o u r tr a n s c r ip t w i th t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r, y o u w il l s e e th a t
t h a t tr a n s c r i p t h a s b e e n i n c l u d e d i n E X H I B I T N N 1 , w h ic h is th e e x h i b i t
c o n ta in i n g y o u r . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : M s H o f m e y r I a m s o r r y t o i n te r r u p t y o u , p l e a s e d o n ’ t
20

f o r g e t w h a t y o u w e r e d e a li n g w i th , b e c a u s e y o u a r e m o v i n g to I t h i n k
M r M a s e k o ’s t e n u r e a t D P S A I j u s t w a n t to . . .[ i n t e r v e n e s ]
ADV HOFMEYR:

Indeed.

C H A I R P E R S O N : .. .s o m e t h i n g o f t h a t w h ic h is . . . [i n te r v e n e s ]
ADV HOFMEYR:

Of course.

CHAIRPERSON:

. .. o f t h a t w h ic h i s .. . [ i n d is ti n c t ] h i s t r a n s f e r, I d id

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
a lr e a d y a s k y o u p r e v i o u s M r M a s e k o a b o u t y o u r p e r f o r m a n c e a n d s o o n
a t th e G C I S , tr a n s f e r s o f D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l d o y o u k n o w u n d e r w h a t
c ir c u m s ta n c e s

th e y

n o r m a l ly

happened

in

te r ms

of

prescripts,

le g i s l a ti o n a s t h e p o s i t io n w a s w h e n y o u w e r e C E O o f G C I S ?
MR MASEKO:

C h a ir p e r s o n a n u m b e r o f r e a s o n s c o u l d e x is t f o r t h e

tr a n s fe r, a n d t h is c o u ld e it h e r b e d i ffe r e n c e s b e t w e e n a n a c c o u n ti n g
o ffic e r a n d a m i n is t e r, s o D G a n d a M i n is te r w h e r e t h e y c a n ’ t w o r k
t o g e th e r o r s e c o n d l y a p r e fe r e n c e b y t h e D ir e c to r G e n e r a l t o r e q u e s t
t h e t r a n s f e r t o a n o t h e r D e p a r t m e n t o r a r e q u e s t fr o m a n o t h e r M i n is t e r
10

s a y in g I n e e d t h e s k i ll s i n t h i s p a r t ic u l a r D e p a r t m e n t a n d c a n t h e
p e r s o n b e tr a n s f e r r e d , b e c a u s e i f i t ’s q u e s ti o n s o f p o o r p e r fo r m a n c e
t h a t d o e s n ’t le a d to a tr a n s f e r, i t s h o u l d l e a d t o a d is m i s s a l o f a
D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l s o in t h e m a j o r i ty o f c a s e s th a t I a m a w a r e o f i n o u r
g o v e r n m e n t t r a n s f e r s n o r m a l ly h a p p e n w h e n th e r e is a d i s p u t e b e t w e e n
t h e D G a n d t h e M in is t e r, a n d G o v e r n m e n t – o r t h e r e c o u l d b e a n
a g r e e m e n t th a t in f a c t t h e M in is t e r s a y s t h a t I c a n ’t w o r k w i t h th is
p e r s o n , t h e M in is t e r g o e s to t h e P r e s i d e n t , a n d t h e n t h e y r e a c h
a g r e e m e n t th a t o k a y y o u c a n ’ t w o r k w i th t h e p e r s o n b u t t h e s k i ll is s t il l
r e q u ir e d i n G o v e r n m e n t s o t h e p e r s o n d o e s n ’ t n e e d t o b e fir e d , s o th e y

20

fi n d a lt e r n a tiv e p l a c e m e n t , a n d I t h i n k t h e r e a r e q u i t e a n u m b e r o f
e x a m p l e s w h e r e t h a t a c t u a ll y h a s h a p p e n e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

S o y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g is t h a t i f a M i n is t e r is n o t

h a p p y w i th th e p e r f o r m a n c e o f h is o r h e r D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l t h a t is n o t –
o r a t le a s t d u r in g y o u r ti m e th a t w a s n o t tr e a te d a s a g r o u n d f o r a
tr a n s fe r, th e r e w a s a s e p a r a t e p r o c e s s i n r e g a r d to t h a t ?

Page 44 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
MR MASEKO:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t , t h a t ’s m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g .

CHAIRPERSON:

A n d y o u r e x p e r i e n c e w a s t h a t tr a n s f e r s o f D ir e c to r s

G e n e r a l fr o m o n e d e p a r t m e n t to a n o t h e r o c c u r r e d w h e n t h e M i n i s te r
c o n c e r n e d a n d h i s o r h e r D ir e c to r G e n e r a l c o u ld n o t w o r k to g e t h e r
a c c o r d i n g to a t le a s t o n e o f t h e m a n d – o r t h e r e w a s s o m e d is p u t e a n d
t h e n a r r a n g e m e n ts w e r e m a d e f o r t h e tr a n s f e r o f t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l
fr o m t h a t d e p a r t m e n t t o a n o th e r d e p a r t m e n t ?
MR MASEKO:

T h a t’s c o r r e c t C h a ir a n d in my r e a d i n g , i f I c a n j u s t b e g

in d u l g e n c e h e r e , in my r e a d in g o f t h e to p ic s o m e r e s e a r c h h a s b e e n
10

d o n e o n t h is , a l o t o f t h o s e k i n d s o f tr a n s f e r s t e n d e d t o h a p p e n w h e n
t h e r e is a c h a n g e o f g o v e r n m e n t i n th e s e n s e t h e r e ’s a r e s h u ffl e o r
t h e r e ’s b e e n n e w e l e c ti o n s .

In most of the cases we find a new

M i n is t e r c o m in g in t o a d e p a r t m e n t a n d fi n d i n g t h a t t h e y d o n ’t w a n t t o
w o r k w i th t h is D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o r t h e y p r e f e r a n o t h e r p e r s o n t o w o r k in
t h a t p a r tic u l a r d e p a r t m e n t s o a l o t o f t h e t r a n s fe r s w o u ld b e l in k e d v e r y
c lo s e ly to c h a n g e s i n th e a d m i n is tr a ti o n o n t h e p a r t o f t h e M i n i s t e r s ,
w h e r e M i n i s te r s f e e l th e y w a n t th e ir o w n D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l to b e
appointed.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s n o w i n t h e c a s e o f a n y a l l e g a ti o n s o f m is c o n d u c t
20

c o u l d th a t b e a g r o u n d f o r t h e tr a n s fe r o f a D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l a s f a r a s
y o u k n o w i n te r ms o f p r a c t ic e s a t t h e t i m e .
MR MASEKO:

I f th e r e is a c a s e o f m is c o n d u c t t h e r e w o u ld h a v e t o b e

a p r o c e s s w h e r e th e r e i s a n in v e s t i g a t io n o f t h e m a t t e r, w h ic h c o u l d
le a d t o e i t h e r a s u s p e n s io n o f a D ir e c to r G e n e r a l b u t o r d in a r il y i t w o u ld
n o t b e a c a u s e o r a r e a s o n t o tr a n s f e r, b e c a u s e t h e n th a t c o u l d b e –

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t h e m is c o n d u c t c o u l d b e s o s e r i o u s t h a t it is a r e a s o n t o d i s m is s , n o t t o
tr a n s fe r t o a n o th e r d e p a r t m e n t.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , y o u s e e I a s k t h e s e q u e s ti o n s b e c a u s e a s y o u

w i ll a p p r e c i a t e a n d M s H o f m e y r k n o w s w e h a v e t o s e e e x a c t ly w h a t th e
r e a s o n w a s f o r y o u r tr a n s f e r, y o u k n o w w e ’ r e tr y in g t o e s ta b l is h th a t , s o
y o u s a y i n th is c a s e b e tw e e n y o u r s e l f a n d M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e t h e r e w a s
n o d is p u t e o f a n y k in d a n d t h e w o r k i n g r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s fi n d , is t h a t
your evidence?
MR MASEKO:
10

M y e v i d e n c e C h a ir p e r s o n is th a t w i th o u t a n y s h e d o f a

d o u b t t h e r e w a s n o d is p u te b e t w e e n m y s e lf a n d M i n is te r C h a b a n e a n d
t h a t ’s w h y w h e n I a s k e d h i m t h e q u e s t io n w h y a m I b e i n g m o v e d f r o m
G C I S h e c o u l d n o t g iv e a r e a s o n e x c e p t t o s a y t h a t i t i s th e P r e s i d e n t ’s
d e c is i o n a n d h is j o b a s M i n is t e r is t o i m p l e m e n t t h e d e c is i o n , s o t h e r e
is n o w r it t e n l e t te r, n o c o n v e r s a t io n b e t w e e n m e a n d M r C h a b a n e t o
in d i c a t e h is u n h a p p in e s s a b o u t m y r o l e i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , a n d o f c o u r s e w e n o w k n o w b a s e d o n t h e l e tt e r
t h a t – t o w h i c h M s H o f m e y r r e fe r r e d y o u t h a t t h i s w o u ld b e t h e s a m e
M i n is t e r w h o a fe w m o n t h s b e f o r e y o u r tr a n s f e r h a d s c o r e d y o u 11 4 % in
t e r m s o f y o u r p e r f o r m a n c e a s s e s s m e n ts .

20

MR MASEKO:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:

S o a f e w m o n t h s b e f o r e h e w a s a c tu a lly v e r y h a p p y

w i t h y o u r p e r fo r m a n c e .
MR MASEKO:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

CHAIRPERSON:

So

based

on

what you

know

and

what your

r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s w i t h h i m c o u ld t h e r e b e a n y b a s is w h y h e m a y h a v e

Page 46 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
wanted

you

to

be

tr a n s fe r r e d

from

h is

department

to

another

d e p a r t m e n t.
MR MASEKO:

A s fa r a s I a m a w a r e C h a ir p e r s o n M i n i s te r C h a b a n e h a d

n o b a s i s , h a d n o r e a s o n o r t h e r e w a s n o in c i d e n t th a t c o u l d h a v e
p r o m p te d h i m t o d e c i d e t h a t I s h o u ld m o v e a n d t h a t i s w h y h e t h e n , I
t h i n k it is i n m y o r i g i n a l a ff id a v i t w h e r e h e m a d e t h e p o i n t t h a t i n s t e a d
o f th r o w in g m e i n t o t h e s tr e e t s h e w o u ld r a th e r f i n d a n a lt e r n a tiv e p o s t
f o r m e i n g o v e r n m e n t, b e c a u s e h e k n e w t h a t I h a d n o t d o n e a n y t h i n g
w r o n g , s o i t is a n i n d ic a ti o n t o m e th a t th e r e w a s n o is s u e a t a l l
10

b e t w e e n th e t w o o f u s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s t h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Ms H o f m e y r ?

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

I n o te th a t w e a r e a t t h e u s u a l

ti m e f o r t h e s c h e d u l e d b r e a k a n d I w a s m o v i n g to a n o t h e r to p i c s o i f i t
is c o n v e n ie n t t o t a k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , l e t ’s ta k e t h e t e a a d j o u r n m e n t n o w, i t ’s a b o u t 1 9
m i n u t e s p a s t, t w e n ty p a s t , w e w il l r e s u m e a t t w e n t y t o tw e lv e .
We adjourn.
REGISTRAR:

A ll r is e .

INQUIRY ADJOURNS
20

INQUIRY RESUMES
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r ?
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

Mr Maseko before the break I

in d i c a t e d th a t I w a s g o i n g t o m o v e t o t h e n e w t o p ic o f y o u r e x i t fr o m
t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m in is tr a ti o n .

Can you just

r e fr e s h o u r m e m o r i e s a b o u t w h e n y o u m o v e d t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t , w h e n

Page 47 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
w a s t h a t?
MR MASEKO:

T h a t w a s i n F e b r u a r y o f 2 0 11 .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

I t h i n k i t’s f iv e m o n t h s .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

A n d fo r h o w l o n g d i d y o u r e m a i n i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t .

S o w h e n d i d y o u e x i t?

J u l y 2 0 11 .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

I r e f e r r e d b e f o r e th e b r e a k t o a

tr a n s c r ip t o f a m e e ti n g t h a t w a s h e l d b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d th e P u b li c
P r o t e c t o r a n d I i n d i c a t e d th a t t h a t h a d b e e n i n c lu d e d i n y o u r b u n d l e . I
10

w o u ld lik e to p i c k u p th a t t r a n s c r i p t a t p a g e 5 3 , 5 3 , t h a t ’s o f t h e
p a g in a t e d p a g e s t h a t a p p e a r i n t h e t o p r i g h t h a n d c o r n e r, a n d t h a t ’s o f
EXHIBIT NN1.
MR MASEKO:

O k a y.

ADV HOFMEYR:
page

52,

A n d p e r h a p s i n f a c t if w e c a n g o b a c k o n e p a g e t o

because

C h a ir

over

th e

break

Mr

M a s e k o ’s

legal

r e p r e s e n t a tiv e d r e w my a t t e n ti o n t o s o m e t h i n g t h a t m a y w e ll h a v e b e e n
w h a t y o u w e r e t h i n k in g a b o u t e a r l ie r w h e n y o u m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o
s o m e b o d y b e i n g e x t r e m e ly a n g r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Fu r i o u s .
20

ADV HOFMEYR:

F u r i o u s , i n d e e d , w e l l i t m a y b e th a t i t w a s th e

r e fe r e n c e i n t h i s tr a n s c r i p t t o w h a t M r M a s e k o h a d s a i d a t p a g e 5 2 , Mr
M a s e k o c a n y o u c o n fir m w h a t t h is d o c u m e n t is t h a t w e a r e l o o k i n g a t ?
MR MASEKO:

S o w e ’r e t a l k i n g a b o u t N N 1 5 2 .

ADV HOFMEYR:

I n d e e d a n d i t c o m m e n t s , if y o u w o u ld li k e t o j u s t g o

there at page 33, of EXHIBIT NN1.

Page 48 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
MR MASEKO:

C h a ir p e r s o n t h a t i s t h e tr a n s c r i p t o f t h e i n t e r v ie w I h a d

w i t h t h e P u b li c Pr o te c to r o n t h e 1 7 t h o f A u g u s t 2 0 1 6 .
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

A n d th e n i f y o u g o t o p a g e 5 2 .

I’v e g o t it .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Th e r e ’s a q u e s t io n t h e r e a b o u t f o u r l i n e s d o w n , t h a t

reads:
“ O k a y a n d t h e n y o u b e c a m e D G o f p u b li c . . . ”
A n d t h e n t h e t r a n s c r i p t r e f le c ts y o u a d d :
“ . . .o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m in is tr a ti o n . ”
10

Yo u a r e a s k e d f o r h o w l o n g a n d t h e n i f y o u c a n r e a d i n to t h e r e c o r d
w h a t y o u a r e r e fl e c t e d a s h a v i n g s a i d t h e n .
MR MASEKO:

In t h e r e c o r d i t s a y s f o r t h r e e m o n t h s .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

B a s e d o n y o u r e v id e n c e i s t h a t a c c u r a t e ?
Th a t ’s n o t a c c u r a t e C h a i r p e r s o n , I t h in k I m e a n t f iv e

m o n th s i t s h o u ld b e .
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

T h a n k y o u a n d t h e n w h a t d o y o u g o o n to s a y ?
I g o o n to s a y n o w th e r e i t w a s i m p o s s i b l e t o s t a y

b e c a u s e M i n i s te r B a l o y i w a s e x tr e m e l y a n g r y t h a t I w a s i m p o s e d o n
him, and that nobody spoke to him, nobody conferred with him, weren’t
20

in c l u d e d i n t h e s t a te m e n t , i n t h e c a b i n e t s t a te m e n t t h a t is , t h a t I is s u e d
t h a t d a y t o s a y I a m n o lo n g e r C O o f G C I S , I a m n o w D G o f D P S A s o h e
h e a r d i t fr o m m e f o r t h e fir s t ti m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , s o t h a t m i g h t w e ll b e . .. [ in t e r v e n e s ]
ADV HOFMEYR:

That might have been indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you very much for that.

Page 49 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
ADV HOFMEYR:

C h a ir w e m a y, a n d M r M a s e k o w e w i ll g o t o y o u r

in t e r a c ti o n s w it h M r B a l o y i i n a m o m e n t b u t th e p o i n t I a m f o c u s i n g o n
n o w y o u w il l fi n d o v e r t h e p a g e a t p a g e 5 3 , th a t ’s w h e r e y o u e n g a g e , a s
I r e a d t h i s t r a n s c r i p t , i n a d is c u s s i o n a b o u t w h a t y o u w e r e p a id w h e n
y o u l e f t D P S A . C a n y o u p le a s e t e l l u s f i r s t o f a l l w h a t is r e f le c t e d in
t h e tr a n s c r ip t a b o u t w h a t y o u s a i d ?
MR MASEKO:

T h e tr a n s c r ip t s r e f l e c ts t h a t I w a s p a id – it c a m e t o

R 1 . 7 m il li o n b e f o r e t a x .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

MR MASEKO:

I s t h a t a t l in e 1 3 .

T h a t ’s a t l in e 1 3 , th a t ’s c o r r e c t .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

A n d i s t h a t c o r r e c t t h a t y o u w e r e p a id R 1 . 7 m i ll io n ?
T h a t’s n o t c o r r e c t C h a i r p e r s o n , t h e c o r r e c t a m o u n t i s

w h a t i s r e f le c t e d i n w h a t w a s a c t u a ll y p a i d b y D P S A r e c o r d s .
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

And why do you think you made that error?
C h a ir p e r s o n i t w a s a b it c o m p l e x , I g o t a c a l l fr o m t h e

P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r ’s o ffic e t o s a y t h a t s e e i n g w h a t I s a i d in t h e m e d i a
a b o u t th e G u p ta F a m i ly a n d th e y w a n te d t o ta lk t o m e a b o u t i t , I a s k e d
f o r m o r e d e t a i ls a n d I a s k e d t h e m i f I n e e d e d t o b r in g a l a w y e r, t h e y
s a i d n o y o u d o n ’ t n e e d a l a w y e r, w e w a n t to ju s t c o m e a n d in t e r v i e w
20

y o u , s o i t w a s v e r y s tr e s s fu l , s o w h e n t h e y a s k e d m e a q u e s ti o n a b o u t
h o w m u c h w a s t h e p a c k a g e I m e n ti o n e d th e R 1 . 7 m il li o n , t h a t is t h e
a m o u n t t h a t w h e n I w a s r e m o v e d fr o m G C I S I c o n s u l te d w i t h a l a b o u r
c o n s u l t a n t w h o i n fo r m e d a n d a g r e e d w i t h m e th a t i n f a c t th e w a y I w a s
r e m o v e d fr o m G C I S a m o u n te d t o g r o s s u n f a ir l a b o u r p r a c ti c e , a n d t h a t I
c o u l d s u e t h e S t a t e f o r u n f a ir d i s mi s s a l a n d a ls o i n c l u d e d a m a g e s

Page 50 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
b e c a u s e o f t h e w a y t h e m a tt e r h a d a c tu a l ly u n f o l d e d a n d w e w e r e in
a g r e e m e n t th a t m y c la i m w o u l d b e s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d t h is a m o u n t o f
R 1 . 7 m il li o n , s o w h e n t h e q u e s t io n c a m e d u r i n g t h e i n te r v i e w th e P u b li c
P r o t e c t o r t h a t ’s th e f i g u r e t h a t c a m e t o m i n d b u t t h e a m o u n t w e
e v e n t u a l ly s e t t le d w a s s o m e w h e r e a r o u n d R 1 . 1 m il li o n w h e n I e x i te d i n
J u l y, b u t I j u s t w a n t to d r a w t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s a t te n t io n to t h e f a c t t h a t
t h a t a m o u n t w a s r e f e r r i n g to t h e p e r io d if I h a d le f t th e P u b lic S e r v i c e
in F e b r u a r y, t h is is t h e a m o u n t w e c o u l d h a v e c l a i m e d , b u t f o r t h e
r e c o r d y e s I s u b m i t th a t in f a c t t h e c o r r e c t is w h a t is r e fl e c t e d i n t h e
10

DPSA numbers.
ADV HOFMEYR:

I f w e c a n t h e n t a k e y o u t o y o u r a ffi d a v i t in r e s p o n s e

t o q u e s ti o n s fr o m t h e C o m m i s s io n a b o u t t h is a s p e c t , a n d y o u w i ll f in d
that in MN1 at page 2.
MR MASEKO:

O k a y.

ADV HOFMEYR:

I w o u ld l ik e t o p ic k it u p a t p a r a g r a p h 1 . 3 b e c a u s e

t h e r e y o u ta lk a b o u t a m e e ti n g b e t w e e n – th a t w a s h e ld o n t h e 1 5 t h o f
J u n e 2 0 11 , w h o w a s t h a t m e e ti n g b e t w e e n ?
MR MASEKO:

T h a t w a s a m e e ti n g I h a d w i t h M in is t e r B a lo y i w h o w a s

M i n is t e r o f D P S A a t t h a t t i m e .
20

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

A n d w h a t w a s t h e s u b je c t m a t t e r o f th e m e e ti n g ?

Th e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e e t in g w a s b a s ic a lly t o d i s c u s s m y

e x i t , my d e p a r t u r e fr o m D P S A .

T h e s u b j e c t o f t h e m e e ti n g w a s th a t

lo o k I h a d c o m e t o th e c o n c lu s i o n th a t t h in g s w e r e n o t w o r k in g o u t a t
D P S A a n d th e M i n i s t e r a n d I w e r e i n a g r e e m e n t th a t i n f a c t th e
s i tu a ti o n w a s l e s s th a n d e s ir a b l e a n d i t w a s t h e r i g h t th in g t o d i s c u s s

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
o p t io n s t o e x i t th e P u b l ic S e r v ic e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr M a s e k o w h e n t h e C o m m i s s io n r e c e i v e d th is

a ffi d a v i t i t e n g a g e d i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w it h y o u b e c a u s e i t a p p e a r e d
t h a t s o m e o f t h e a n n e x u r e s t o t h e a ffi d a v i t h a d b e e n in c o r r e c tly n a m e d ,
c a n y o u c o n fir m t h a t t h a t is c o r r e c t ?
MR MASEKO:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

ADV HOFMEYR:

I w o u l d t h e n l ik e y o u t o m o v e to p a g e 8 . 1 o f E X H I B I T

NN1.
CHAIRPERSON: What page again?
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

8 . 1 C h a ir, i t ’s th e f ir s t p a g e a f t e r t h e a ffi d a v it

a c t u a ll y c o n c l u d e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y, th a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

What is that document?

This – okay 8.1?

ADV HOFMEYR:

Ye s .

MR MASEKO:

T h a t is t h e le t t e r I w r o te t o M i n i s t e r B a l o y i b a s ic a lly

c o n fir m i n g t h e p r o p o s a l o r t h e a g r e e m e n t w e h a d r e a c h e d t h a t m y
c o n tr a c t s h o u l d b e r e - d e t e r m i n e d .
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

C a n y o u j u s t e x p l a i n t o u s w h a t r e d e t e r m i n a t io n o f a

c o n tr a c t m e a n s ?
MR MASEKO:

I t ’s a s h o u l d I s a y a ty p ic a l t e r m u s e d in g o v e r n m e n t , i f

a D G d e p a r t s fr o m t h e ir p o s i t io n a h e a d o f t h e e n d o f t h e ir c o n tr a c t , i t ’s
a te r m w e u s e t o r e fe r t o e a r ly t e r m i n a t io n o f a c o n t r a c t , s o a t t h e
m e e ti n g o n th e 1 5 t h w e h a d a g r e e d t h a t i n fa c t I w o u ld b e l e a v i n g th e
P u b l ic S e r v ic e .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o i t’s b a s i c a ll y a fr e s h d e t e r m i n a t io n o f t h e p e r i o d o f
t h e c o n tr a c t?
MR MASEKO:

W e l l i t a m o u n ts t o t h a t y e s .

CHAIRPERSON:

I t a m o u n ts t o t h a t.

I n i ti a l ly w h e n t h e c o n tr a c t w a s

c o n c l u d e d th e p e r io d m a y h a v e b e e n th r e e y e a r s o r fi v e y e a r s , w h e n
y o u t a l k a b o u t r e - d e te r m i n in g t h e c o n tr a c t y o u a r e a c tu a l ly l o o k i n g a t
s a y in g le t ’s c h a n g e t h e p e r io d o f t h a t c o n tr a c t .
MR MASEKO:

Ja.

C H A I R P E R S O N : J a ,o k a y
10

MR MASEKO:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d i f y o u th e n g o o v e r t w o

pages to page 9, can

y o u p le a s e i d e n t i fy w h a t th a t d o c u m e n t is ?
MR MASEKO:

Th is is a d o c u m e n t w h ic h w a s p r e p a r e d b y t h e

D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m in i s tr a ti o n .

It is a document

a d d r e s s e d t o m e , w h i c h b a s ic a l ly o u t li n e s t h e t e r m s u n d e r w h ic h I
w o u ld b e e x i ti n g th e P u b l ic S e r v ic e .

I t s h e a d in g s a y s r e - d e te r m in a ti o n

o f t e r m o f o ffi c e o f D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l , a n d i t i s d ir e c t e d t o m e s o i t
o u t li n e s t h e p r o c e s s , th e d e t a i ls o f t h e s e t tl e m e n t , t e r m i n a t io n d a te .

It

w a s s i g n e d b y t h e M i n i s t e r a n d I c o - s i g n e d i t t o b a s ic a l ly c o n f ir m th a t I
20

a m a c c e p ti n g t h i s a g r e e m e n t t o e x i t t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d c a n y o u p le a s e h e l p u s w i th p a r a g r a p h 2 ,

b e c a u s e p a r a g r a p h 2 s e e m s t o t a l k a b o u t a c a lc u la t io n , w h a t is t h a t ?
MR MASEKO:

W e l l t h i s p a r a g r a p h b a s i c a l ly is a n e x tr a c ti o n fr o m th e

P u b l ic S e r v ic e A c t w h ic h t a l k s a b o u t s p e c ia l s e r v i c e b e n e fi ts th a t w ill
b e p a y a b le t o m e , t h a t i s a l u m p s u m a m o u n t a n d t h is is – a n d t h e n it

Page 53 of 179

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s a y s h o w i t w il l b e c a lc u l a te d , i t s a y s f o r th e fi r s t t h r e e m o n t h s i t w il l
b e 1 0 0 % o f y o u r g r o s s m o n t h ly r e m u n e r a ti o n a n d t h e n t h e r e m a i n d e r
w h ic h is n in e m o n t h s o r p a r t th e r e o f i t w il l b e 8 0 % o f y o u r g r o s s
m o n th ly in c o m e , s o th is is e x tr a c te d fr o m t h e P u b lic S e r v i c e A c t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u a n d is th a t a s ta n d a r d c a l c u l a t i o n th a t is

a p p li e d ?
MR MASEKO:

T h a t i s a s ta n d a r d c a l c u l a ti o n , w h e n m a t t e r s o f r e -

d e t e r m i n a t io n a r e b e i n g c o n s i d e r e d .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

T h a n k y o u . Yo u m e n t i o n e d e a r li e r i n y o u r t e s ti m o n y

t h a t y o u r r e f e r e n c e t o 1 . 7 mi ll i o n w a s i n e r r o r, i t w a s n o t t h e a m o u n t y o u
were in fact paid, as I understand your testimony that was a reference
t o a f ig u r e y o u h a d in y o u r m i n d b e c a u s e o f d is c u s s i o n y o u ’ d h a d a t t h e
ti m e o f y o u r m o v e fr o m G C I S a n d t h e p o s s ib l e c l a i m y o u m a y h a v e
a g a in s t t h e D e p a r t m e n t , is t h a t c o r r e c t M r M a s e k o ?
MR MASEKO:

T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u r t e s ti m o n y w a s a l s o t h a t t h e fi n a l a m o u n t t h a t

w a s p a id w o u ld b e e v i d e n c e d i n th e r e c o r d s o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t , a n d s o
t h e C o m m is s i o n h a s t a k e n s t e p s to s e e k t o a c q u i r e t h o s e .

I w o u l d l ik e

y o u t o tu r n t o p a g e 2 7 , 2 7 o f N N 1 .
20

MR MASEKO:

O k a y I’ m t h e r e C h a i r p e r s o n .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

Ye s I s a w i t .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

H a v e y o u s e e n t h is d o c u m e n t b e f o r e ?

A n d w h a t d o e s t h is d o c u m e n t r e f le c t?
T h is d o c u m e n t b a s i c a lly is a d o c u m e n t o r ig in a ti n g f r o m

t h e p e r s o n n e l a d m i n is tr a ti o n s e c ti o n o f D P S A , i t t h e n o u t li n e s h o w t h e

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
p a y m e n t w il l b e m a d e , i t m e n ti o n s m y p e r i o d o f e m p l o y m e n t , a n d t h e n i t
s a y s t h e s e t tl e m e n t w il l b e a s f o l lo w s , f o r th r e e m o n t h s I w il l b e p a id
1 0 0 % o f m y g r o s s r e m u n e r a ti o n , w h ic h a m o u n t to R 3 9 0 9 7 4 a n d f o r t h e
e i g h t m o n th s i t w ill b e 8 0 % o f m y g r o s s m o n t h ly r e m u n e r a ti o n w h ic h
a m o u n t t o R 8 3 4 0 7 8 a n d tr a n s l a t e d a s f o l lo w s ; A l l- i n c l u s i v e s a l a r y
package per annum was R1.4.

1 0 % n o n - p e n s io n a b l e a l lo w a n c e fo r

h e a d s o f d e p a r t m e n ts R 1 4 2 1 7 2 . 0 0 .

I t t h e n g iv e s a n i n s tr u c ti o n

p r e s u m a b l e t h is w a s t o H R .
“ P l e a s e p a y th e l u m p s u m m i n u s t h e 9 d a y s o f
10

o v e r p a y m e n t b e f o r e 3 1 A u g u s t 2 0 11 . ”
A n d t h e a m o u n t w a s R 1 .1 m i ll io n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t is g r o s s a m o u n t is i t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is t h e g r o s s a m o u n t b e fo r e t a x .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e n i f y o u g o o v e r th e p a g e d o y o u – h a v e y o u
seen that document before?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s I h a v e s e e n it C h a ir p e r s o n . S o h a v in g r e c e iv e d t h e
in s t r u c t i o n fr o m H R t h e s a la r y d i v is i o n t h e n p r o d u c e s a p a y m e n t s li p
a n d i t s h o w s t h e f o ll o w i n g f i g u r e s , p a y d a t e .

I d o n o t n e e d to g o

t h r o u g h a l l t h e d e t a ils b u t e s s e n t i a ll y i t s a y s th e n e t a m o u n t p a i d w a s
20

R 7 1 0 1 6 3 .0 0 . T h is w a s a ls o a ft e r d e d u c t io n s . A n d it d e ta ils w h a t t h o s e
d e d u c ti o n s w e r e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d M r M a s e k o w e u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t is a
c a l c u l a ti o n b a s e d o n a r e d e t e r m in a ti o n f o r t h e r e m a i n i n g p e r i o d o f y o u r
c o n tr a c t. W h e n w a s y o u r e x is t in g c o n t r a c t d u e to e x p i r e ?
M R M A S E K O : O k a y. I h a v e lo o k e d a t to o m a n y n u m b e r s n o w. Th e – i t

Page 55 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
w a s m e a n t to e x p i r e in 2 0 1 2 . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s I d o n o t t h i n k i t i s c o n t e n t i o u s a s I h a v e t h e d a t e
it is th e 3 0 J u n e 2 0 1 2 .
M R M A S E K O : 2 0 1 2 Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : D o e s t h a t a c c o r d w i th y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n ?
MR MASEKO: Ja.
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d s o t h i s c a lc u l a ti o n t h a t w a s d o n e w a s t h e r e

a n y th in g u n u s u a l a b o u t i t i n s o fa r a s t h e a m o u n t t h a t w a s p a id t o y o u ?
MR MASEKO:
10

N o th i n g u n u s u a l.

The amount determined by the

d e p a r t m e n t a n d t h e y h a d n o s a y p r e s u m a b l y o v e r w h a t th e t a x m a n
d e c i d e s t o d e d u c t . I s t il l t h i n k t h e ta x m a n o v e r d e d u c t e d . B u t I t h i n k
w h a t i t s h o w s i s th a t in t o t a l t h e c o n s o li d a t e d a f t e r a l l th e d e d u c t io n s i t
came to R853 034.00.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
M R M A S E K O : B u t th o s e fi g u r e s a r e n o t in d is p u te . T h e y a r e c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

W h e n y o u – w h e n y o u s a y th a t p a y m e n t o f th a t

a m o u n t w a s u n u s u a l a s I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e d o y o u m e a n t h a t i t
w a s n o r m a l w i t h i n t h e p u b lic s e r v ic e t h a t w h e n t h e c o n t r a c t o f a
20

D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l w a s b e i n g r e - d e t e r m i n e d a n d h e o r s h e h a d t o l e a v e
s h e w o u l d b e p a i d i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h a c e r t a i n f o r m u la a n d th e
p a y m e n t w o u l d b e t a k in g i n t o a c c o u n t a m o n g o t h e r t h i n g s m a y b e t h a t
t h e r e w a s a p e r i o d o f h e r c o n tr a c t t h a t s h e w o u ld o r d in a r ily h a v e b e e n
e x p e c te d to w o r k w h ic h s h e d i d n o t w o r k a n d h a d t o l e a v e ?
MR MASEKO:

T h e – th e fo r m u l a i s p r e s c r i b e d b y t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
A c t a n d R e g u l a t i o n s . S o I w o u l d s a y t h e M i n is t e r o f P u b li c S e r v i c e a n d
A d m i n i s t r a t io n d o e s n o t h a v e m u c h d i s c r e t io n e s p e c i a l ly i n c a s e s w h e r e
t h e r e is a n a d m is s i o n th a t in fa c t t h e p r o c e d u r e s th a t w e r e u s e d to
m o v e y o u fr o m o n e p l a c e t o a n o t h e r w e r e n o t p r o p e r – w e r e n o t
c o m p li e d w i t h . T h e f a c t th a t w h e n I m o v e d fr o m G C I S to D P S A t h e r e
w a s n o f o r m a l c o n tr a c t th a t c o n f ir m e d th a t I w a s n o w a c t u a l ly a D G a t
P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n .

S o in f a c t a s f a r a s I a m – I w a s

a w a r e t h e o n l y d o c u m e n t t h a t w a s p r o o f th a t I w a s D G o f D P S A w a s t h e
s t a te m e n t t h a t I is s u e d . B u t t h e r e w a s n o fo r m a l c o n tr a c t t h a t I s i g n e d
10

w i t h t h e M in is t e r o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

I g u e s s t h e r e w o u l d p r o b a b ly a l s o h a v e b e e n a

P r e s i d e n ti a l M i n u te o r y o u a r e n o t s u r e a b o u t t h a t ?
M R M A S E K O : I w a s n o t a w a r e o f a P r e s i d e n t ia l M in u t e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : U n t il I h a v e – I r e a d t h e a ff i d a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:

B y M i n is t e r B a l o y i b u t a t t h e t i m e I w a s n o t a w a r e o f

such.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O h o k a y. O k a y. S o y o u – y o u w e r e a D G w it h
20

r e a l ly n o p r o o f o f b e i n g D G o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is w h y I th i n k s o m e w h e r e in o n e o f th e a ffi d a v i ts I
d o – in fa c t i t w a s in th e P u b li c S e r v ic e n o – P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r ’s
d o c u m e n ts w h e r e I e v e n u s e d s t r o n g la n g u a g e t o s a y e v e n t h is
p a y m e n t w a s i ll e g a l b e c a u s e m y m o v e w a s n o t r e g u la r is e d . B u t w h e n I
lo o k a t th e a ff id a v i t o f M i n i s te r B a lo y i o r M r B a lo y i i t d o e s a p p e a r th a t

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t h e r e w a s s o m e r e g u l a r i s a t io n o f th e p r o c e s s s o m e w h e r e w h ic h w a s n o t
b r o u g h t t o m y a t te n ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t e ff e c t iv e l y a t D P S A if a n y – i f y o u s a id y o u w e r e
D G a n d s o m e b o d y s a y s p r o v e it y o u w o u l d n o t k n o w w h a t t o d o – w h a t
t o p u t u p e x c e p t t h e m e d ia s t a te m e n t ?
MR MASEKO: I would have to produce my media statement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . M r M a s e k o I w o u l d t h e n li k e t o m o v e to
y o u r r e s p o n s e s t o M r B a l o y i ’s a ff i d a v i t i f w e m a y ?
10

Now you provided

a n a ffi d a v it t o t h e c o m m is s i o n w i th y o u r r e s p o n s e s a n d t h a t y o u w i ll
fi n d i n Ex h i b it N N 1 fr o m p a g e 1 3 .
MR MASEKO: I got it.
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h a t I p r o p o s e t o d o M r M a s e k o is a g a i n a s I d id w i th
M r Zu m a ’s e v i d e n c e to t a k e y o u t o t h e – t h e n u b o f w h a t a p p e a r s t o b e
t h e c o n t e n t io n b e t w e e n M r B a lo y i a n d y o u r s e l f in s o f a r a s y o u r f u r t h e r
e v i d e n c e w a s c o n c e r n e d a n d t h e n fo r u s t o a s k y o u t o a s s is t u s w i t h
your response?

Mr B a l o y i’s e v i d e n c e w h ic h is a n a ff id a v i t w h ic h h a s

b e e n p r o v id e d t o y o u a n d o n – in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h h e w il l b e g iv in g o r a l
e v i d e n c e a t t h e c o m m i s s io n i n d u e c o u r s e s a y s t h a t b e f o r e y o u w e r e
20

tr a n s fe r r e d o u t o f G C I S a n d to D P S A h e d is c u s s e d t h a t tr a n s f e r w i t h
you and he obtained your consent. What is your response to that?
MR MASEKO:

It – C h a ir p e r s o n m y – b e g f o r i n d u lg e n c e f o r t w o

s e c o n d s j u s t to g o t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : P o in t 4 o n p a g e 1 4 o f m y a ffi d a v i t .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s o k a y.
M R M A S E K O : To ju s t c l a r if y o n e i m p o r t a n t p o in t a n d th a t i s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : T h a t a t n o s t a g e in m y a ffi d a v i ts t o th e c o m m i s s io n n o r
in m y o r a l s u b m i s s i o n to y o u r s e lf d i d I e v e r s u g g e s t t h a t M r B a l o y i w a s
in v o lv e d i n a n y i n s t a n c e s o f s ta t e c a p t u r e o r c o r r u p ti o n .

B e c a u s e my

r e a d in g o f h is a ff id a v i t t h e r e i s s u g g e s t in g o r h e g o t a n i m p r e s s i o n th a t
in fa c t I m a d e s u c h a n a c c u s a ti o n s o I j u s t w a n te d to b r i n g t h a t t o y o u r
a tt e n ti o n . B u t i n r e s p o n s e t o y o u r …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W e l l b e f o r e th a t w h e n I r e a d t h a t p a r t o f y o u r a ffi d a v it
I d id n o t u n d e r s t a n d w h e r e i t c a m e fr o m b e c a u s e I – I th o u g h t I d id n o t
s e e a n y t h i n g t h a t m a y h a v e g iv e n a n y i m p r e s s io n th a t t h e c o m m is s i o n
w a s s a y i n g t h a t is w h a t y o u s a i d a b o u t h i m . S o I – b u t y o u a r e s a y in g
y o u g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n f r o m h is a ffi d a v i t ?
M R M A S E K O : Fr o m h i s a ff id a v i t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t h e s e e m s t o h a v e g o t – th a t i s w h a t y o u s a i d ?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d y o u w a n te d to c l a r i f y th a t y o u n e v e r s a i d th a t ?
M R M A S E K O : O k a y.

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M A S E K O : T h a n k y o u . To r e s p o n d – a p o lo g i e s fo r d i v e r s i o n . To –
t o r e s p o n d t o y o u r q u e s ti o n m y a n s w e r is a n e m p h a t ic n o . T h a t h e –
w h a t M r B a lo y i s a y s is n o t c o r r e c t .

A g a i n it is i m p o r t a n t f o r m e t o

r e c o u n t h o w t h e p r o c e s s u n fo ld e d . W e a r e s i t t in g i n a c a b in e t m e e ti n g .
T h e r e i s a n e w s r e p o r t th a t I h a v e b e e n fir e d . I c h e c k w i t h m y M in is t e r.

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T h e M i n i s t e r c h e c k s w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t .

T h e P r e s i d e n t c o n fir m s th e

m o v e . T h e n t h e M in is t e r t h e n i s a s k e d t o m a k e a n a n n o u n c e m e n t t h a t I
a m l e a v i n g G C – D P – G C I S a n d I a m m o v in g to D P S A . U n f o r t u n a t e ly
M i n is t e r B a l o y i i s n o t a t th e c a b in e t m e e t in g a n d I a m r e q u ir e d t o
p r e p a r e a c a b i n e t s t a t e m e n t i m m e d ia t e l y a ft e r t h a t m e e t in g . S o I c a ll
M r B a l o y i to s a y th is i s w h a t h a s tr a n s p ir e d a n d u n f o r t u n a t e ly I a m y o u r
–

f o r tu n a te ly

or

u n f o r t u n a t e ly

c o n v e r s a ti o n h e w a s s u r p r is e d .

I am your

new

DG

and

in

that

S o a t n o s t a g e d id I h a v e a

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h M i n i s t e r B a l o y i a b o u t m y m o v e fr o m G C I S to D P S A
10

u n t il a ft e r t h a t c a b i n e t m e e ti n g .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you Mr Maseko.

I f I c a n j u s t r e m in d y o u to

d ir e c t y o u r a n s w e r s t o t h e C h a i r i f I m a y ?
M R M A S E K O : M y a p o l o g i e s C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV HOFMEYR:

B u t i f I c a n j u s t p r o b e t h a t a li t tl e b i t f u r t h e r.

m e n ti o n e d e a r l ie r t h a t d a t e s a n d ti m i n g a r e q u it e i m p o r ta n t .

I

As I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u w e r e f ir s t c o n t a c t e d b y M i n is t e r C h a b a n e
a b o u t t h e n e e d t o m e e t o n S u n d a y th e 3 0 t h , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t w a s w h e r e h e w a s r e la y i n g to y o u th e – a s
20

o u r e v id e n c e h a s i t t h e i n s tr u c ti o n fr o m P r e s id e n t Z u m a t h a t y o u m u s t
b e r e m o v e d , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

H a d y o u h a d a n y i n d ic a ti o n fr o m M i n is t e r C h a b a n e

p r i o r t o t h a t d a te t h a t y o u w o u l d b e r e m o v e d ?
M R M A S E K O : N o t p r i o r t o o u r m e e ti n g . W h e n I h a d th e m e e t i n g w i t h

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M i n is t e r C h a b a n e o n t h e 3 1 s t J a n u a r y h e i n fo r m e d m e a b o u t t h e c a l l h e
h a d r e c e i v e d fr o m Pr e s i d e n t Zu m a . T h e n h o w w e c o n c l u d e d t h a t
m e e ti n g M in is t e r C h a b a n e a n d I w a s th a t h e w a s g o in g t o e x p l o r e
o p t io n s f o r m e t o b e a p p o i n te d o r tr a n s f e r r e d to a s a D G b e c a u s e h e
w a s c o n v i n c e d th a t i n f a c t I h a d n o t d o n e a n y t h i n g w r o n g . I n f a c t h is
w o r d s w h ic h a r e i n c lu d e d i n t h e t r a n s c r i p t in t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r a n d i n
m y a ffi d a v it .

H e s a id h e i s n o t g o in g t o t h r o w m e i n to th e s tr e e ts

because he knew that I had not done anything wrong. So he was going
t o f in d a n a l t e r n a t iv e p l a c e . S o b e t w e e n t h e 3 1 s t a n d t h e 2 n d m y – I h a d
10

h o p e d th a t h e w a s t h i n k i n g a b o u t w h e r e t o – t o tr a n s f e r m e t o a n d I h a d
in p r i n c i p l e y o u k n o w c o n s i d e r e d th a t h e w a s g o in g t o c o m e b a c k t o m e .
S o t h a t is w h y w h e n t h e n e w s b r o k e o n W e d n e s d a y i t w a s a b i t o f s h o c k
t o b o th o f u s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

N o w M r B a lo y i ’s a ffi d a v it i n d ic a te s th a t h e m e t w i t h

y o u w h ic h I u n d e r s t a n d y o u to s a y d id n o t ta k e p l a c e . A n d f u r th e r m o r e
t o s a y t h a t i n th a t i n t e r a c ti o n y o u g a v e y o u r c o n s e n t t o t h e t r a n s f e r.
W h a t is y o u r e v i d e n c e o n t h a t ?
M R M A S E K O : M y – m y e v i d e n c e C h a ir p e r s o n w i t h o u t a n y d o u b t i s th a t
t h e r e w a s n o s u c h a d is c u s s i o n .
20

When – at the end of that cabinet

m e e ti n g w h e n t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s m a d e w h e n I c a l le d M i n is t e r
C h a b a n e – o r M in is t e r B a l o y i o r Mr B a lo y i t o in f o r m h i m t h a t i n f a c t t h is
is t h e o u tc o m e I w il l b e a n n o u n c i n g th a t I w i ll – I w a s h is n e w D G . H e
d i d e x p r e s s s u r p r is i n g s h o c k b e c a u s e h e s a y s b u t n o b o d y h a d
c o n s u l t e d h i m , n o b o d y h a d in f o r m e d h i m a b o u t th is b u t I s a i d h e s h o u l d
s p e a k t o M i n is te r C h a b a n e b e c a u s e I u n f o r tu n a te ly h a v e to m a k e t h e

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a n n o u n c e m e n t a n d i t w o u l d n o t b e – w e ll M i n is t e r C h a b a n e d i d n o t w a n t
a n a n n o u n c e m e n t th a t s a y s I h a v e le f t G C I S b u t d id n o t k n o w w h a t –
where I was going.

So – because it would have meant that

a n n o u n c e m e n t in c a b in e t w o u ld h a v e a m o u n t e d t o a d is m i s s a l . S o h e
d i d n o t w a n t t h a t t o h a p p e n . S o th e a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s m a d e – th e r e
w a s n o t t i m e . I m e a n t h e f a c t o f th e m a t t e r is t h a t th e r e a s o n w h y M r
B a lo y i w a s n o t a t t h e c a b i n e t m e e t i n g w a s b e c a u s e h e h a d o t h e r
c o m m i t m e n ts . H e m a y h a v e b e e n o u t o f t o w n I d o n o t k n o w. S o t h e r e
w a s n o o p p o r t u n i ty t o h a v e a m e e t in g w i th Mr B a l o y i b e f o r e t h e c a b i n e t
10

s t a te m e n t w a s is s u e d . S o it – w e a r e t a l k in g a b o u t a m a t t e r o f h o u r s
here.
CHAIRPERSON: So – so you – you say
1 . H e w a s s u r p r is e d t h a t y o u a r e t e l li n g h i m th a t y o u w e r e h is n e w
DG?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s h e w a s , h e w a s .
CHAIRPERSON:

A n d h e s a i d n o b o d y h a d c o n s u l te d h i m a b o u t th e

is s u e o f y o u r tr a n s f e r ?
M R M A S E K O : H e s a id h e w a s n o t c o n s u l t e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : N o w t h a t is q u i t e i m p o r t a n t a n d I j u s t w a n t y o u t o b e
20

s u r e t h a t y o u r r e c o l l e c ti o n i s q u i t e c le a r b e c a u s e i n h i s e v i d e n c e – i n
h is a ffi d a v it a n d I a m s u r e M s H o f m e y r w a s g o i n g t o d e a l w i t h i t. I n h i s
a ffi d a v i t h e s a y s h e h a d d is c u s s i o n s w i t h M i n is t e r C h a b a n e b e f o r e y o u
w e r e tr a n s fe r r e d . Yo u – a r e y o u q u i te c l e a r t h a t h e s a i d h e – n o b o d y
had consulted him?
MR MASEKO:

C h a ir i n m y a ff id a v i t I d o s a y t h a t I c a n n o t c o n f ir m

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
w h e t h e r M r B a ly o i h a d a c o n v e r s a t io n w i t h M r C h a b a n e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : B e c a u s e I w a s n o t p r i v y to t h a t , I w a s n o t a w a r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : A ll I a m a w a r e o f is t h a t w h e n M in is t e r C h a b a n e m a d e
t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t a t th e c a b i n e t m e e ti n g t h a t I w a s g o i n g t o b e
tr a n s fe r r e d to D P S A .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:
10

T h e ti m e w a s s o t i g h t th a t h e h a d n o t e v e n h a d t h e

c h a n c e t o c o m e b a c k t o m e a n d s a y, a c tu a l ly I a m m o v i n g y o u t o D P S A .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is h o w ti g h t t h e t i m e fr a m e s w e r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : S o i t is p o s s i b l e th a t th e y m i g h t h a v e h a d d i s c u s s i o n s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : T h e t h r e e – a s t h r e e M i n i s t e r s i t is p o s s ib l e t h a t m a y b e
M i n is t e r B a lo y i e x p e c t e d f u r t h e r d is c u s s i o n s . B u t i f w e h a d b e e n – w e
h a d d i s c u s s e d t h e m a t te r i f w e h a d c o n s u lt e d , i f I h a d a g r e e d t o i t a s
D G t h e r e w o u ld n o t b e a n e e d w h y a c a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m w a s n o t

20

p r o d u c e d . S o t h a t t h e m a t t e r i s f o r m a li s e d i n th e c a b i n e t m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : S o t h e r e a s o n w h y t h e r e w a s n o c a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m is
b e c a u s e M in is t e r – M r C h a b a n e w a s tr y i n g t o m a n a g e a v e r y c o m p l e x
s i tu a ti o n w h ic h w a s a n n o u n c in g t h a t s o m e b o d y is m o v i n g fr o m t h i s p o s t
but not knowing where to take them to.

S o D P S A b e c a m e t h e o p t io n

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t h a t h e – h e th o u g h t w o u ld w o r k th e b e s t.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

S o w h e th e r th e y h a d h a d d is c u s s i o n s p r i o r t o t h e

c a b i n e t m e e ti n g I c a n n o t c o n fir m .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm. So you – you do not know whether Mr Baloyi had
h a d a m e e ti n g – h a d h a d a d is c u s s i o n w i t h M r C h a b a n e a b o u t y o u r
tr a n s fe r b u t w h a t y o u d o k n o w is t h a t h e s e e m e d s u r p r is e d w h e n y o u
t o l d h i m y o u w e r e h is n e w D G a n d y o u s a y h e d i d s a y to y o u n o b o d y
had consulted him?
10

M R M A S E K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : I a m a b s o lu t e l y c e r t a in a b o u t t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k y o u .

I f w e c a n th e n g o b a c k t o w h a t I

u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e a b o u t th e fir s t ti m e y o u w e r e a l e r t e d to
t h e n e e d t o r e m o v e y o u fr o m G C I S .

Just to be clear that was in the

m e e ti n g o n th e m o r n i n g o f M o n d a y t h e 3 1 s t J a n u a r y, is th a t r i g h t?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Th e c a b i n e t m e e t i n g is W e d n e s d a y o f t h a t w e e k , t h e
20

2 n d F e b r u a r y, c o r r e c t?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR:

C a n y o u t e l l u s a b o u t y o u r m o v e m e n ts o v e r t h o s e

d a y s b e c a u s e I a m tr y i n g to e s t a b l is h w h e t h e r t h e r e w a s s p a c e f o r
m e e ti n g s o r o t h e r w is e w i th M r B a l o y i i n th a t p e r i o d ?
MR MASEKO:

I t r i e d t o C h a i r p e r s o n tr i e d t o r e tr i e v e m y – m y d i a r y

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
fr o m G C I S b u t i t w a s – i t w a s a – n o l o n g e r a v a i l a b le b e c a u s e o f th e
passage of time.

B u t I c a n a s s u r e y o u th a t th e p e r i o d b e t w e e n a

M o n d a y a n d a W e d n e s d a y o f a c a b i n e t m e e ti n g t h o s e a r e g e n e r a l ly
ti m e s t h a t I w o u l d c l e a r my d i a r y b e c a u s e y o u r e c e iv e a r c h le v e r f il e s
o f a l l t h e s e c a b in e t m e m o r a n d u m s a n d I s p e n t a l o t o f t i m e g o in g
t h r o u g h a l l o f t h o s e m e m o r a n d u m s . S o b e tw e e n a c a b i n e t m e e ti n g – i f
it i s i n Pr e to r i a t h e n I s p e n d t i m e in th e o ff ic e . B u t i f a c a b in e t m e e ti n g
h a p p e n s to b e i n C a p e To w n s o M o n d a y b e c o m e s a t r a v e l d a y. Yo u g o t
t o C a p e To w n . Yo u s p e n d th e w h o l e o f Tu e s d a y p r e p a r in g , r e a d i n g a ll
10

t h e d o c u m e n ts . S o a t y p ic a l t w o d a y p e r i o d b e f o r e a c a b i n e t m e e t in g is
e s s e n ti a l ly r e a d in g ti m e .

N o t – n o m e e ti n g s j u s t p r e p a r in g f o r t h e

c a b i n e t m e e ti n g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d a g a in ju s t f o r c l a r i f i c a ti o n p u r p o s e s M r M a s e k o is
it y o u r e v i d e n c e t h a t n o m e e ti n g w h a t e v e r t o o k p l a c e b e t w e e n y o u a n d
M r B a l o y i p r io r t o th e 2 n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 o n th is t o p ic ?
MR MASEKO:

Pr io r t o t h e 2 n d F e b r u a r y I n e v e r h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h

M i n is t e r – Mr B a lo y i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is i n t e r e s ti n g is w h y h e w o u ld s a y h e d i d h a v e –
I d o n o t k n o w w h e t h e r h e s a id a m e e t in g o r j u s t a d is c u s s i o n w h ic h m a y
20

b e h a v e – w a s t e l e p h o n ic I a m n o t s u r e . W h y h e w o u l d s a y h e h a d a
d is c u s s io n w i t h y o u o n – w i t h r e g a r d t o t h is is s u e o f th e tr a n s fe r i f
t h e r e w a s n o t s u c h a d i s c u s s io n ?

N o w o f c o u r s e y o u m ig h t n o t b e a b le

t o s a y a n y th i n g a b o u t t h a t a ll y o u m i g h t k n o w is t h e r e w a s n o s u c h
d is c u s s io n b u t I a m j u s t s h a r i n g t h a t w i t h y o u a s s o m e t h i n g t h a t i s
g o i n g o n i n m y m i n d . I d o n o t k n o w if y o u w a n t to s a y a n y t h i n g ?

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M R M A S E K O : C h a ir t h e a r e a o f s p e c u l a t io n i s a v e r y d a n g e r o u s a r e a
b u t m y r e a d i n g o f M r B a l o y i’s a ff id a v i t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

M R M A S E K O : I t h i n k t h a t is a c tu a lly r e m e m b e r i n g a m e e ti n g w h e n w e
w e r e d i s c u s s in g o p t io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : A b o u t m e l e a v in g th e P u b l i c S e r v i c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : S o th a t m e e ti n g d i d h a p p e n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO: But it was not in relation to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : To y o u r m o v e fr o m G C I S ?
MR MASEKO:

M y m o v e fr o m C G I S t o D P S A .

M y m o v e fr o m C G I S t o

D P S A I w i ll s a y w it h o u t a n y h e s i t a t i o n w a s n o t p l a n n e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja
M R M A S E K O : Wa s a b r u p t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : A n d i t c a u g h t a l o t o f p e o p l e b y s u r p r i s e i n c lu d i n g t h e
c a b i n e t m e e ti n g i ts e l f .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : W h e n t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s m a d e a l l t h e Pr e s i d e n t d i d
w a s – o h b e fo r e t h e m e e t i n g e n d s M r C h a b a n e h a s a n i m p o r t a n t
a n n o u n c e m e n t to m a k e . H e m a k e s t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : A n d b e c a u s e I h a d s p o k e n t o M r C h a b a n e to s a y, l is t e n I

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
a m d o i n g t h i s s t a te m e n t I a m g o i n g t o b e a n n o u n c i n g m y d e p a r t u r e
w h a t d o y o u w a n t m e to s a y ?

To s a y I a m le a v in g g o v e r n m e n t .

He

s a y s n o , n o I w il l m a k e a p l a n . I w i ll f in d – I w il l s p e a k to s o m e b o d y –
t o o n e o f th e M in is t e r s .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

To m a k e s u r e t h a t y o u g e t a p la c e m e n t .

So when he

m a d e a n d a n n o u n c e m e n t y e s I w a s s u r p r i s e d b u t – o r s u r p r is e d a b o u t
w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t I w a s g o i n g t o b u t I d i d k n o w t h a t h e h a d m a d e a
c o m m i t m e n t t h a t b y t h e t i m e I p r e p a r e t h e s ta t e m e n t t h e r e w il l b e a
10

d e p a r t m e n t t h a t I w i ll b e g o i n g t o .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : A n d th a t w a s a c h ie v e d . U n fo r t – th e o n ly u n f o r t u n a t e ly
t h i n g is th a t Mr B a l o y i w a s n o t a t t h e m e e t i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

S o – s o y o u – y o u r – th e o n ly t h in g y o u c a n

think of is that Mr Baloyi might be confusing – might be having in mind
t h e m e e ti n g w h e n y o u w e r e a b o u t t o le a v e D P S A a n d th in k i n g t h a t i t i s
a m e e t in g t h a t to o k p l a c e b e f o r e y o u c a m e to D P S A ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t – t h a t is m y …
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is th e o n ly th in g y o u c a n t h i n k o f ?
20

M R M A S E K O : T h e b e s t a n s w e r I c a n g i v e t o t h a t C h a ir p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a s e k o I w o u l d lik e t o m o v e to t h a t c o n v e r s a ti o n
in a m o m e n t . B u t b e fo r e t h a t ju s t t o p ic k u p o n a p o i n t y o u h a v e m a d e
a f e w t i m e s t h is m o r n in g w h ic h is th a t Mr B a lo y i w a s n o t p r e s e n t a t t h e
c a b i n e t m e e t in g o n t h e 2 n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 . C a n I a s k r e l a t e d t o th a t ?

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
Yo u r

e v id e n c e

has

a lr e a d y

been

that

you

r e c e iv e d

no

c a b in e t

m e m o r a n d u m i n a d v a n c e o f th a t m e e ti n g r e l a ti n g to y o u r tr a n s f e r o r M r
M a n y i’s t r a n s f e r, is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u j u s t t e l l u s a b o u t o r d i n a r y p r a c t ic e , i f th e r e
w e r e a c a b in e t m e m o r a n d u m t o s e r v e b e fo r e c a b in e t h a d a m e e ti n g
w o u ld i t u s u a l ly b e t h e c a s e t h a t t h e r e s p o n s i b l e M i n is t e r w o u ld a t te n d
t h a t m e e ti n g ?
MR MASEKO:
10

T h e e x p e c t a ti o n is t h a t i f – i f a M i n is t e r h a s a c a b i n e t

m e m o r a n d u m s e r v i n g b e fo r e a c a b i n e t m e e t in g th e M in is t e r a t te n d s .
B u t i f a M i n is t e r is n o t a b l e t o a t te n d b e c a u s e a ll c a b – o r m o s t o f th e
cabinet memoranda go through cabinet sub-committee the Chair of that
s u b - c o m m i t t e e o f t h e c lu s t e r w o u l d b e m a n d a t e d b y t h e M i n i s t e r to s a y
p l e a s e s p e a k t o th is I a m n o t a b l e to a t t e n d . A n d n o r m a l ly t h e M i n i s t e r
w o u ld a l s o s p e a k to t h e P r e s id e n t t o s a y, m y i t e m i s o n th e a g e n d a I
a m n o t a v a il a b l e f o r t h e f o ll o w i n g r e a s o n s M in is t e r Y w i ll a c t u a ll y
p r e s e n t t h e m e m o r a n d u m o n m y b e h a l f . S o t h a t w o u l d b e p r a c tic e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . B u t o n t h e 2 n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 d id a n y o f
t h a t ta k e p l a c e i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r tr a n s f e r ?

20

M R M A S E K O : I n r e l a ti o n t o m y tr a n s f e r t h e o n l y p e r s o n w h o m a d e t h e
a n n o u n c e m e n t w a s M i n is te r C h a b a n e .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d I th i n k y o u h a v e s a i d t h a t y o u o n ly g o t to k n o w t o
w h ic h d e p a r t m e n t y o u w e r e b e i n g tr a n s f e r r e d w h e n M i n is te r C h a b a n e
m a d e th e a n n o u n c e m e n t t o t h e c a b i n e t.

Page 68 of 179

D i d I u n d e r s ta n d y o u

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
c o r r e c t ly ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:

B e f o r e t h a t y o u – h e h a d – b e f o r e th a t y o u d i d n o t

k n o w a l l y o u k n e w w a s t h a t h e h a d m a d e a c o m m i t m e n t to y o u t h a t h e
w o u ld tr y a n d p l a c e y o u s o m e w h e r e ?
MR MASEKO:

Mi n is t e r C h a b a n e a f te r o u r c o n v e r s a t io n a n d h is

c o n v e r s a ti o n w i th t h e P r e s i d e n t w a s i n a n d o u t o f t h e c a b in e t m e e t i n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : A n d I k n e w t h a t in f a c t h e w a s tr y in g to f in d …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : A M i n is te r th a t h e c o u l d t a l k t o s o t h a t a n a n n o u n c e m e n t
could be made.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : S o y e s t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . Ye s . W h ic h o r d i n a r ily I w o u l d i m a g in e m a y h a v e
g iv e n h i m a n o p p o r tu n it y to s p e a k t o Mr B a lo y i if h e w o r k e d o n t h e
b a s is t h a t h e w o u ld n e e d t o s p e a k to t h e r e l e v a n t M i n i s t e r b e f o r e
a n y th in g i s c o n c l u d e d .
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr M a s e k o i f w e c a n th e n m o v e t o th e m e e t in g t h a t

y o u d id h a v e w i th M r B a l o y i .

I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e ffo r t a t s o m e

s p e c u l a ti o n a b o u t w h y h e s a id h e h a d d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h y o u b e f o r e th e
tr a n s fe r m i g h t b e t h e p r o d u c t o f c o n f u s i n g a l a t e r m e e t in g y o u h a d w i t h
h i m . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR:
c o n v e r s a ti o n .

O k a y s o l e t u s g o t o w h a t Mr B a l o y i s a y s a b o u t t h e

C h a i r y o u r e f e r r e d to d is c u s s io n I h a v e j u s t c h e c k e d i t

a g a in M r B a l o y i d o e s s a y d is c u s s io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o i t is a d i s c u s s io n t h a t h e a ll e g e s h e h a d w i th y o u
before

th e

tr a n s f e r

and

he

says

that

in

that

d is c u s s i o n

you

c o m m u n ic a te d t o h i m t h a t y o u h a d d e c i d e d n o t t o s t a y lo n g i n t h e
P u b l ic S e r v ic e .
10

M R M A S E K O : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h a t i s y o u r r e s p o n s e t o th a t ?
MR MASEKO:

I th i n k I a n s w e r e d t h a t q u e s t i o n s p e c i fi c a lly i n m y

a ffi d a v i t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u d o in d e e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is …
A D V H O F M E Y R : I c a n ta k e y o u th e r e . Yo u p ic k it u p a t …
MR MASEKO: Page 17.
ADV HOFMEYR: Page 17.
M R M A S E K O : Ye s .
20

ADV HOFMEYR: At paragraph 6.7.
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. My – my s u b m is s i o n a s f a r a s M r
B a lo y i ’s a ffi d a v i t i s c o n c e r n e d w h a t h e s a y s i n t h e a ff id a v i t I t h i n k i t is
– I d o n o t th i n k i t is n o t a c c u r a te .

Th e c o n v e r s a ti o n I h a d w i t h h i m

a b o u t n o lo n g e r w a n t in g to s t a y i n t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d p u r s u i n g
o th e r in t e r e s ts t h a t w a s a c o n v e r s a ti o n th a t t o o k p l a c e in J u ly o f 2 0 11

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w h e n w e w e r e b a s ic a lly d is c u s s i n g m y e x i t fr o m t h e P u b li c S e r v ic e a n d
b a s ic a lly l e a v i n g D P S A .

S o i t w a s n o t a b o u t le a v i n g G C I S m o v i n g t o

D P S A . S o t h e s e a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t m a t te r s . L e a v i n g G C I S h a d n o t h in g
t o d o w it h m e n o l o n g e r w a n ti n g t o s t a y in th e P u b l ic S e r v ic e i t w a s
a b o u t b e in g f o r c e f u l ly m o v e d fr o m G C I S . S o I – i t w o u l d n o t e v e n m a k e
s e n s e t o m a k e s u c h a s ta t e m e n t . I f I a m b e i n g s h o w n t h e d o o r a t G C I S
a n d I s a y I n o lo n g e r w a n t t o s t a y i n G C I S I w a n t t o p u r s u e o t h e r
in t e r e s ts .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

I w o u ld l ik e u s t o g o i f w e m a y ju s t t o t h e p r e c is e

w o r d s t h a t Mr B a l o y i u s e s i n h is a ffi d a v i t . Yo u w i ll f in d it i n t h e s a m e
fi le u n d e r Ta b 4 .
M R M A S E K O : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d y o u w il l f i n d i t a t p a g e 1 2 o f M r B a l o y i ’s a ffi d a v i t.
MR MASEKO: I have got it.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d if w e c a n p ic k i t u p a t p a r a g r a p h D D t h e r e ? W h a t
M r B a l o y i r e c o r d s t h e r e in h i s a ff id a v i t is t h e f o l lo w in g .
“ I r e c a ll t h a t M r M a s e k o w a s v e r y c l e a r w it h m e
a b o u t h i s d e c is i o n n o l o n g e r t o s t a y i n P u b lic S e r v ic e
a s h e h a d o th e r o p ti o n s t o p u r s u e . A s h e s a id s o i n

20

r e s p o n s e to m y o ff e r t o e x te n d h i s c o n tr a c t a t t h e
e x p ir y o f h is t e r m . ”
A n d t h e n i f w e m o v e to p a r a g r a p h E E :
“ S o I k n e w h i s p o s i t io n a b o u t P u b l ic S e r v ic e b y th e
ti m e t h e tr a n s f e r w a s i m p l e m e n te d a n d I w e n t a h e a d
w i t h t h e tr a n s f e r a n ti c i p a t in g a p o s s ib il i ty w h e r e h e

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
c o u l d c h a n g e h i s m i n d b u t a l s o a p p r e c i a ti n g t h a t h e
w o u ld h a v e m a d e a v a l u a b le c o n t r i b u t io n b y t h e t i m e
he decided to leave.”
M r M a s e k o c o n f ir m w i th m e i f y o u r e a d th a t to i n d ic a te t h a t t h i s
c o n v e r s a ti o n w i t h y o u a t w h ic h y o u m a d e i t c le a r y o u d id n o t w a n t t o
s t a y l o n g i n t h e P u b lic S e r v ic e w a s a c c o r d i n g t o M r B a l o y i p r i o r to th e
tr a n s fe r t o h is d e p a r t m e n t?
MR MASEKO:

T h i s – th e s e t w o p a r a g r a p h s a r e i n c o r r e c t in s o f a r a s

t h e y r e f e r to m y tr a n s f e r fr o m G C I S t o D P S A .
10

ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
C H A I R P E R S O N : S o is th e p o s i ti o n th a t h e a s fa r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d
h e is t a k i n g a c o n v e r s a t io n th a t h a p p e n e d o n t h e o c c a s i o n o f y o u r
m e e ti n g w i t h h i m j u s t b e f o r e y o u le f t D P S A a n d s a y i n g i t is a
c o n v e r s a ti o n t h a t to o k p l a c e b e f o r e y o u w e r e tr a n s fe r r e d f r o m G C I S to
DPSA?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is e x a c tl y w h a t I a m s a y i n g C h a i r a n d I …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:

A n d I d o n o t t h i n k h e i s d o i n g t h is d e li b e r a te ly.

I t is

s i m p l y b e c a u s e t h e s e t h in g s h a p p e n e d a lo n g t i m e a g o .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR

MASEKO:

It

could

s i m p ly

be

that

he

is

remembering

a

c o n v e r s a ti o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:

A n d th in k i n g t h a t it a p p li e s to o n e i n s t a n c e w h e n i n

fact…

Page 72 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : I t a p p l ie s to t h e o th e r. B u t i t is in c o r r e c t t o s u g g e s t –
f o r h i m to s u g g e s t t h a t w h e n I l e f t G C I S i t w a s m y p l a n n o t t o s ta y in
t h e P u b l ic S e r v ic e it i s – t h a t d i s c u s s i o n r e f e r s to m y p l a n t o l e a v e
DPSA.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll it m a y b e t h a t w h a t h e s a y s i n p a r a g r a p h 1 . 1 . 6

o f h i s a ff id a v i t a t p a g e 2 o f t h e s a m e a ff id a v it it m a y b e t h a t t h a t i s
c o n s i s te n t w i th y o u r a n a ly s is b e c a u s e th e r e h e s a y s :
“That
10

being

th e

in f o r m a ti o n

c o n t a in e d

in

my

s t a te m e n t h e r e i n i s l a r g e ly i f n o t e x c l u s i v e ly b a s e d in
m y m e m o r y.

I n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e I n o lo n g e r

h a v e a c c e s s to s u c h in f o r m a ti o n th a t is lo c a te d i n th e
d e p a r t m e n t w h e r e i n I s e r v e d i n v a r i o u s c a p a c i ti e s a s
r e fe r r e d t o i n t h e b a c k g r o u n d i n f o r m a ti o n i n t h e
s t a te m e n t . ”
S o w i t h t h e lo s s o f t i m e i t m a y w e ll b e b u t h e w i ll c o m e h e r e a t s o m e
s t a g e a n d h e w il l i n d i c a t e b u t t h e p o i n t y o u m a k e is t o th e e x t e n t th a t
a s f a r a s y o u a r e c o n c e r n e d h e is s a y i n g w h a t y o u s a i d w h e n y o u w e r e
a b o u t t o l e a v e D P S A is w h a t y o u s a i d w h e n y o u w e r e a b o u t t o b e
20

tr a n s fe r r e d fr o m G C I S to t h e e x t e n t t h a t t h a t is w h a t h e is d o in g .
Yo u a r e s a y i n g y o u d o n o t t h in k h e is d o i n g s o d e li b e r a t e ly.
Yo u th i n k h e i s j u s t m is t a k e n ?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : B e c a u s e o f th e l a p s e o f t i m e ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .

Page 73 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. Ye s M s …
A D V H O F M E Y R : Mr M a s e k o t h e r e is a n o th e r .. . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ms H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g i e s . T h e r e is a n o t h e r i m p o r t a n t a s p e c t o f w h a t
h e s a y s in h i s a ff i d a v i t t h a t d i s c u s s io n - t h a t a l l e g e d d is c u s s i o n - w i t h
y o u p r i o r t o y o u r m o v e to D P S A i n v o l v e d , b e c a u s e t h e o th e r i m p o r t a n t
p o i n t is t h a t h e s a y s h e o b ta i n e d y o u r c o n s e n t t o m o v e fr o m G C I S t o
D P S A . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is in c o r r e c t . A g a i n f o r t h e s i m p le r e a s o n t h a t t h e 10

t h e s to r y l e a k e d t o t h e m e d i a a n d a n n o u n c e m e n t i s m a d e i n C a b i n e t
w h ic h in c l u d e s m y tr a n s fe r to D P S A .

Th e r e w a s n o - a n d m y

u n d e r s t a n d in g o r m y a g r e e m e n t w it h M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a t t h e ti m e w a s
t h a t h e w i ll m a k e a p l a n f o r m e .
ADV HOFMEYR: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

S o - s o t h e r e i s n o n e g o t i a ti o n . N o d is c u s s i o n . I w a s

ju s t h a p p y th a t M i n i s te r C h a b a n e w a s m a k i n g a p l a n a n d I - I w e n t
a l o n g w i t h th e p l a n .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Mr M a s e k o I k n o w t h a t y o u a r e n o t a la w y e r …
MR MASEKO: Hm.
20

ADV HOFMEYR:

But

do

you

have

any

u n d e r s ta n d i n g

of

the

r e q u ir e m e n t o f c o n s e n t b e f o r e a D G is tr a n s f e r r e d ?
MR MASEKO:

C h a ir, I - I c a n a c c u s e m y s e l f o f b e i n g a la w y e r.

s t u d i e d la w. N e v e r p r a c tic e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A c t u a ll y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s M r M a s e k o .

Page 74 of 179

I

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : I - I w a s th in k i n g y o u - I s e e m t o r e m e m b e r y o u h a v e
g o t B A L L B a n d L M o r s o m e t h i n g li k e t h a t . S o y o u - y o u a r e a l a w y e r.
M R M A S E K O : J a , b u t c o n s e n t is t h a t y o u m u s t d o s o c o n s c i o u s ly. I t
c a n n o t b e a s s u m e d t h a t y o u c o n s e n t - y o u a r e c o n s e n ti n g b u t a n y w a y.
T h e - th e p o i n t I a m m a k in g is th a t M i n is t e r C h a b a n e s a y s I w il l m a k e a
p l a n f o r y o u a n d I a g r e e to - t o t h e p l a n . I d i d n o t k n o w t h e d e ta il s o f
t h e p l a n . M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e t h e n m a k e s a n a n n o u n c e m e n t i n C a b i n e t.
M i n is t e r B a lo y i i s t h e n i n f o r m e d o f t h a t a n d w e j u s t h a v e t o
implement the Cabinet announcement, but there was no - I can say
10

e m p h a t ic a l ly C h a ir t h e r e w a s n o d is c u s s i o n a b o u t w h e t h e r I c o n s e n t o r
a p p r o v e o r a g r e e . I j u s t i n f o r m e d h i m th a t i n fa c t t h i s is w h a t i s g o i n g
t o h a p p e n . I a m n e w h is D G .
T h a t is - t h a t is w h a t I in f o r m e d h i m .

As stated in the

tr a n s c r ip t fr o m t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a s e k o j u s t - C h a ir if w e m a y j u s t c o m p le t e th is

point, because …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t m a y b e u s e fu l ju s t t o g o to th e r e l e v a n t l e g is l a t iv e
provision so we have it in mind.
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a ir y o u w il l fi n d i t in t h e b u n d l e b e fo r e y o u e n t it l e d
le g i s l a ti o n b u n d le . M r M a s e k o y o u w i ll a ls o h a v e a c o p y o f i t …
MR MASEKO: Ja.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u t u r n t o p a g e 4 1 - 4 - 1 - i n th a t b u n d l e y o u
w i ll fi n d y o u r s e l f in a s e c t io n o f t h e P u b l i c S e r v i c e a n d A d m i n is tr a t i o n

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
A c t.
MR MASEKO: I have got it.
ADV HOFMEYR:

C h a ir is t h e Ac t t h a t w a s i n p l a c e a t t h e ti m e o f t h e

tr a n s fe r s o f M r M a s e k o a n d M r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: Manyi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d i f y o u p ic k i t u p a t p a g e 4 1
a t S e c ti o n 1 2 t h e s e c ti o n t h a t w e a r e d e a li n g w i t h is S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 3 ) o n
t h a t p a g e . Yo u w il l s e e t h e r e th a t th e s e c t io n r e a d s :
10

“ T h e Pr e s id e n t m a y tr a n s fe r t h e h e a d o f a N a t io n a l
D e p a r t m e n t o r N a ti o n a l G o v e r n m e n t C o m p o n e n t
b e f o r e o r a t th e e x p ir y o f h is o r h e r t e r m o r
e x t e n d e d t e r m t o p e r f o r m f u n c ti o n s i n a s i m il a r o r
a n y o t h e r c a p a c i ty in a N a t i o n a l D e p a r t m e n t o r
N a t io n a l G o v e r n m e n t C o m p o n e n t i n a p o s t o f e q u a l ,
higher

or

lower

e s t a b li s h m e n t

g r a d in g

as

the

or

a d d i t io n a l

President

to

the

considers

appropriate.”
A n d th e n i f w e g o o v e r t h e p a g e th e p o i n t a b o u t c o n s e n t y o u
20

w i ll fi n d a t S e c t io n 3 D b e c a u s e 3 D n o w p u t s c e r t a i n r e q u ir e m e n ts o n
t h a t tr a n s f e r. D s a y s :
“ A tr a n s f e r i n t e r m s o f t h i s s u b s e c ti o n m a y o n ly
occur

if

a,

th e

relevant

head

of

department

c o n s e n t s to t h e tr a n s fe r o r a f t e r d u e c o n s id e r a ti o n
o f a n y r e p r e s e n t a t i o n s b y t h e h e a d t h e tr a n s f e r i s in

Page 76 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t h e p u b lic in t e r e s t . ”
Is t h a t i n a c c o r d a n c e w i t h y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f th e p o s i ti o n
a s i t p l a y s o u t i n p r a c t ic e ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is - t h a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV HOFMEYR:

N o w I w o u l d lik e t o g o t h r o u g h e a c h o f t h o s e t w o

Roman numerals.

I u n d e r s ta n d y o u r e v i d e n c e t o b e y o u d id n o t g iv e

p r i o r c o n s e n t t o t h is tr a n s f e r. I s t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A S E K O : N o t s p e c ia ll y n o t o t h is . N o t t o th e tr a n s f e r t o D P S A .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
10

MR MASEKO: Before it - it was a no. Let me say that.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o r r y. S a y t h a t a g a in . I d i d n o t c a t c h t h a t la s t p a r t .
MR MASEKO:

I d i d n o t g i v e c o n s e n t to t h e tr a n s f e r w h e n i t - u n t il i t

w a s a n n o u n c e d b e c a u s e I d id n o t k n o w a b o u t , b u t I h a d g iv e n c o n s e n t
t o t h e p r i n c i p l e o f b e i n g m o v e d t o a d i ff e r e n t d e p a r t m e n t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . Th a t is - t h a t i s h e l p fu l a n d th e n ju s t i n
r e l a ti o n t o R o m a n I I.

D i d y o u m a k e a n y r e p r e s e n ta t io n s a b o u t th is

tr a n s fe r t o P r e s id e n t Zu m a p r i o r t o - f o r m e r P r e s i d e n t Z u m a - p r i o r t o
the move to DPSA?
M R M A S E K O : N o . I d id n o t.
20

ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l le t u s g o b a c k t o t h e c o n s e n t in p r i n c ip le th a t

y o u g a v e . W e ll y o u m u s t j u s t te ll m e i f m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g is c o r r e c t . I t
seems to me that after the announcement to the Cabinet of your
tr a n s fe r o r a t l e a s t a f te r t h e is s u i n g o f t h e m e d i a s t a t e m e n t a b o u t y o u r
tr a n s fe r fr o m G C I S t o D P S A .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
I t c o u l d b e s a i d j u s t i fi a b ly t h a t y o u r tr a n s f e r fr o m G C I S t o
DPSA was with your consent. Am I correct?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

W h a t b e c o m e s i m p o r t a n t is h o w d i d i t c o m e

a b o u t th a t t h e t r a n s f e r h a d t o b e c o n s id e r e d a n d h a d t o h a p p e n a n d
t h e n - a n d y o u h a v e a v e r s i o n o n th a t ? H o w th a t c a m e a b o u t . S o f r o m
w h a t y o u h a v e s a id i t s e e m s t o m e th a t y o u a r e s a y i n g y o u c e r ta i n ly d i d
n o t in i ti a te y o u r tr a n s f e r. I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u - y o u d id n o t a s k f o r a t r a n s f e r ?
M R M A S E K O : I d i d n o t a s k f o r a tr a n s f e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s a n d a s f a r a s y o u a r e a w a r e M in is t e r C h a b a n e d i d
n o t a s k o r d i d n o t i n i t ia t e th a t y o u b e t r a n s f e r r e d ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is c o r r e c t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is m y u n d e r s ta n d i n g . J a .
CHAIRPERSON:

A c c o r d i n g t o M in is t e r C h a b a n e i t w a s t h e f o r m e r

P r e s i d e n t w h o c a m e w it h th e i d e a th a t y o u s h o u l d b e tr a n s f e r - y o u
s h o u l d b e m o v e d fr o m G C I S ?
20

M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M s M a s e k o I w o u l d t h e n lik e t o e x p l o r e w i t h y o u w h e n
y o u d id d e c i d e to le a v e D P S A . W h e n w a s t h a t ?
M R M A S E K O : I t h in k - w e l l I d o n o t - j a . I t h i n k i t w a s t h r e e m o n t h s
in t o - i n t o th e jo b . T h a t is w h e n I d e c i d e d m a y b e i t is ti m e f o r m e t o

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
move on.
ADV HOFMEYR: And why?
MR MASEKO:
b a s ic a lly

T h e r e a s o n a s s ta t e d in - i n t h e a ff i d a v i t w a s i n s h o r t

because

u n t e n a b le .

I

had

found

the

s it u a ti o n

in

the

department

I th i n k th a t a l t h o u g h I s t a te i n th e a ffi d a v i t t h a t I d i d n o t

h a v e a - a d is p u t e w it h M i n i s te r - M r B a l o y i , b u t th e r e la t io n s h ip j u s t
did not gel.
D i d n o t - t h i n g s d id n o t w o r k w e ll a n d I a t tr i b u te th a t t o t h e
f a c t t h a t h e h a d f e l t I w a s i m p o s i n g o n h i m a s - a s a D G . S o m y a r r iv a l
10

a t D P S A a s f a r a s I a m a w a r e w a s n o t fo r m a l ly a n n o u n c e d . M a n y o f th e
p e o p l e I f o u n d a t D P S A t o l d m e t h a t th e y g o t t o k n o w a b o u t m y a r r iv a l t h a t I w a s c o m in g o r t h a t I w a s t h e r e fr o m t h e m e d i a - b a s e d o n th e
m e d i a s t a te m e n t th a t I h a d is s u e d .
S o t h e tr a n s i ti o n fr o m o r tr a n s f e r f r o m G C I S t o D P S A w a s n o t
s m o o t h . S o w h e n I a r r iv e d t h e r e a n d I j u s t f e l t h e r e t h e - t h e M i n is t e r
was not as welcome.

I do not think that he had anything personal

a g a in s t m e a n d t h e I fo u n d th a t t h e - th e r e w e r e g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s th a t
I w a s c o n c e r n e d a b o u t a n d b y g o v e r n a n c e i s s u e s I a m - I m e a n th e r e
w e r e a l o t o f m e e ti n g w h i c h h a p p e n e d w i th o u t m y i n v o l v e m e n t .
20

I w a s n o t i n - i n v i te d to a l o t o f t h o s e m e e ti n g s . T h e r e w a s
n o t a f o r m a l m e e ti n g t o f o r m a ll y in tr o d u c e m e t o t h e m a n a g e m e n t t o
s a y t h i s i s y o u r n e w b o s s . S o I j u s t a r r iv e d . I h a d t o fi t in t o w h a t w a s
h a p p e n e d t h e r e a n d I f e lt t h a t a l o t o f t h e d e c i s i o n s t h a t w e r e t a k e n
w e r e b e i n g t a k e n b y t h e M i n i s te r w it h m y t e a m i n m y a b s e n c e .
H a d i m p li c a t io n s f o r m e a s th e A c c o u n t in g O ffic e r.

Page 79 of 179

So if

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
d e c is i o n s a r e m a d e t o d o c e r t a in t h i n g s a n d a s A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r I a m
n o t i n fo r m e d o r n o t p a r t o f t h o s e m e e ti n g s . A t th e e n d o f th e d a y I a m
t h e o n e w h o is s u p p o s e d t o g o t o P a r l ia m e n t a n d a c c o u n t f o r t h o s e
d e c is i o n s .

S o I j u s t fe l t t h e a t m o s p h e r e w a s j u s t n o t c o n d u c i v e to

s t a y in g o n .
Yo u k n o w I ju s t I w a s n o t a b le t o p l a y th e l e a d e r s h i p r o l e t h a t
I a m - I a m e x p e c te d to a s A c c o u n t in g O ffic e r a n d t h a t is w h e n I
d e c i d e d I s h o u ld m o v e o n .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

A n d t e ll u s a b o u t y o u r i n t e r a c ti o n s w i t h Mr B a lo y i

about that move.
M R M A S E K O : I t h e n a p p r o a c h e d h i m a n d ju s t d i d i n d ic a t e t o h i m t h a t I
a m - a n d I th i n k th a t i s w h e r e h is w o r d in g b e c o m e s r e l e v a n t . W h e r e h e
s a i d I t o l d h i m t h a t I w a s n o w t h in k i n g o f e x i ti n g t o p u r s u e o t h e r
in t e r e s ts o u ts i d e o f t h e P u b l ic S e r v i c e a n d I m u s t s a y i t w a s a - a v e r y
c o r d i a l c o n v e r s a t io n .
T h e r e w a s n o t a f i g h t o r a r g u m e n t a b o u t i t a n d I th i n k t h a t i t
t o o k tw o m e e ti n g s t o a g r e e t h a t i n fa c t th i s is t h e b e s t w a y f o r w a r d a n d
- a n d t h o s e m e e ti n g s h a p p e n e d . I t h in k t h e d a te s I g a v e . I t i s t h e …
ADV HOFMEYR: 15 June.

20

CHAIRPERSON: The 10th and the 15th.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A s I r e c a l l i t.
MR MASEKO: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON: The 10th and 15 June.
M R M A S E K O : O f - o f J u ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O r J u l y.

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
ADV HOFMEYR: Of June I think.
MR MASEKO: I mean …
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a . I th i n k J u n e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d .
M R M A S E K O : I t is w r it t e n s o m e w h e r e h e r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : 2 0 11 .
M R M A S E K O : A n d t h e n h e u n d e r to o k to h a v e a c o n v e r s a ti o n w it h t h e
P r e s i d e n t t o g e t a p p r o v a l , b e c a u s e i t c a n n o t ju s t b e a c o n v e r s a t i o n
b e t w e e n th e tw o o f u s . H e t h e n u n d e r t o o k to s p e a k t o th e Pr e s id e n t t o
10

get approval. He came back and said the President has agreed and so
t h e y w i ll d o t h e p a p e r w o r k a n d th e H R D e p a r t m e n t w i ll c o m e b a c k a n d
d is c u s s th e d e t a i l , b u t th a t w a s h o w t h e m a tt e r w a s c o n c l u d e d .
W e e v e n a g r e e d t h a t d u r i n g t h a t p e r io d w h i le h e w a s s o r ti n g
t h e s e th in g s I d i d n o t h a v e t o r e p o r t to w o r k . I c a n s ta y a t h o m e a n d
w a i t f o r t h e p a y m e n t t o b e m a d e . S o t h a t i s h o w it u n fo ld e d .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k y o u .

M r M a s e k o t h e C h a ir m e n t io n e d a b i t

e a r l ie r a P r e s i d e n t ia l m i n u t e r e l a ti n g to y o u r tr a n s fe r. D i d I u n d e r s t a n d
y o u r t e s t i m o n y c o r r e c t ly to b e t h a t y o u h a d n o t s e e n t h a t P r e s i d e n t ia l
minute?
20

M R M A S E K O : C h a ir I h a d n o t o n l y n o t s e e n i t . I w a s n o t a w a r e t h a t i t
e x i s te d . H o w e v e r I t h i n k i t i s i m p o r t a n t t o s a y t h a t i n m y y e a r s i n t h e
P u b l ic S e r v i c e I h a v e n o t s e e n to o m a n y o f t h o s e m i n u te s , b e c a u s e
t h e s e a r e e s s e n t ia lly P r e s i d e n t i a l d e c is io n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : T h e y n o t - th e y d o n o t e v e n s e r v e i n C a b in e t .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . M R M A S E K O : S o - ja , b u t I h a d n o t s e e n t h e - I
w a s n o t a w a r e t h e r e w a s a C a b i n e t m i n u te .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M A S E K O : T h e Pr e s id e n ti a l m i n u t e .
A D V H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d l ik e y o u j u s t f o r t h e r e c o r d to ta k e y o u t o t h e
P r e s i d e n ti a l m i n u t e th a t t h e C o m m i s s i o n h a s m a n a g e d to o b t a i n . Yo u
w i ll fi n d i t i n E X H I B I T N N 5 a n d y o u w i ll fi n d i t a t p a g e 5 0 - 5 - 0 .
M R M A S E K O : G o t i t . I g o t it C h a ir p e r s o n .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

Yo u - d o I t a k e it th a t y o u h a v e n o t s e e n t h i s

document before?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir, c a n I j u s t r e a d i t b r i e fl y ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : P le a s e r e a d i t fi r s t i n d e e d .
MR MASEKO:

C h a ir p e r s o n , i t i s - i t is t h e f ir s t ti m e t h a t I s e e t h is

document. I had not seen it.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C a n y o u a s s is t u s w i t h w h a t it r e c o r d s ?
M R M A S E K O : O k a y. T h e d o c u m e n t is d a t e d 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 .
A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a s e k o s o r r y t o in t e r r u p t y o u t h e r e . W h a t i s th a t
d a t e i n r e l a ti o n t o th e C a b i n e t m e e t in g ?
MR MASEKO:
20

S o th is is - t h e 3 r d w o u l d b e th e d a y a f t e r t h e C a b in e t

m e e ti n g . T h e C a b i n e t m e e t i n g w a s o n 2 F e b r u a r y. S o t h is s ir is d a t e d
3 Fe b r u a r y. S o i t w o u l d b e a ft e r t h e …
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
M R M A S E K O : T h e C a b i n e t m e e ti n g .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d w h a t d o e s it r e c o r d ?
MR MASEKO: It says:

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
“I hereby in terms of …”
W e ll i t s a y s :
“ P r e s i d e n t ’s m i n u t e n u m b e r 3 2 . I h e r e b y i n t e r m s o f
S e c t io n 1 2 ( 3 ) ( A ) r e a d w i th S e c ti o n 1 2 ( 3 ) ( D ) o f t h e
P u b l ic S e r v ic e A c t p r o m u lg a t e d u n d e r Pr o c la m a t i o n
number

103

of

1994.

I

hereby

tr a n s fe r

M r T J M a s e k o fr o m t h e p o s t o f D G o f G C I S to t h e
p o s t o f D G D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic S e r v ic e a n d
A d m i n i s t r a t io n w i th e ffe c t fr o m t h e d a t e f o ll o w i n g
10

t h e d a t e o n w h ic h th is Pr e s id e n ti a l m i n u t e is s ig n e d
b y th e P r e s i d e n t u n ti l 3 0 J u n e 2 0 1 2 . ”
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e r e f e r r e d to 3 0 J u n e e a r l i e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M a y b e h e s h o u ld c o m p le t e t h e - t h e g iv e n u n d e r …
MR MASEKO: Oh.
C H A I R P E R S O N : U n d e r b e c a u s e t h e r e is t h e s i g n i fi c a n c e to t h e d a t e .
M R M A S E K O : O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
MR MASEKO:

20

“ G iv e n u n d e r m y h a n d a n d t h e s a le o f t h e

R e p u b l ic

of

South

Africa

at

Pretoria

on

3 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 11 s i g n e d b y … ”
I - I d o n o t - I t h in k th a t i s t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s s i g n a t u r e , b u t i t
s a y s P r e s id e n t t h e r e . I c a n n o t r e c o g n i s e t h a t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:

A n d t h e n a ls o s i g n e d b y th e M in is t e r o f C a b in e t

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
p r e s u m a b ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : D o y o u k n o w th a t s ig n a t u r e ?
MR MASEKO:

It lo o k s li k e - o h m y G o d .

T h i s l o o k s l ik e B a l o y i ’s

s ig n a tu r e , b u t … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : M r B a l o y i’s s i g n a t u r e b u t I a m n o t s u r e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

Yo u w o u l d h a v e - y o u w o u ld h a v e k n o w n

M r C h a b a n e ’s s i g n a t u r e q u i t e w e ll ? I w o u l d i m a g i n e .
M R M A S E K O : Ye s . I w o u ld - I w o u ld k n o w. I w o u l d h a v e k n o w n .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : It is n o t h is ?
M R M A S E K O : I d o n o t t h i n k th is i s h is s ig n a t u r e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

W e w il l b e a b l e t o c la r i fy w i th Mr B a l o y i , b u t I

u n d e r s t a n d h is e v i d e n c e t o b e th a t h e c o - s ig n e d th is m i n u t e in s o f a r a s
h is a ffi d a v it is c o n c e r n e d .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . I th i n k th a t is w h a t h is a ffi d a v it s a y s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Ye s .

Mr M a s e k o i f I c a n t h e n j u s t t a k e y o u b a c k a

p a g e in t h a t s a m e f il e . W e l l le t u s - l e t u s s ta r t a t th e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e
document at page 44 - 4-4.
20

M R M A S E K O : O k a y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t b e fo r e y o u d o s o M s H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Tw o t h in g s . T h is P r e s i d e n t ia l m i n u t e o n t h e f a c e o f i t
w a s s i g n e d o n 3 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 .

T h a t w o u l d b e t h e d a y a ft e r th e d a y

t h a t y o u w e r e - o n w h ic h y o u w e r e tr a n s f e r r e d t o D P S A . Is t h a t r i g h t ?

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t s ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t it a ls o s a y s i f I u n d e r s ta n d i t c o r r e c t ly t h a t t h e

tr a n s fe r w o u l d t a k e p l a c e - y o u r t r a n s f e r w o u ld t a k e p l a c e a d a y a f te r
the day on which it was signed.

S o w h ic h w o u ld m e a n t h e tr a n s f e r

w o u ld t a k e e ff e c t o n 4 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 ?

I s t h a t y o u r u n d e r s t a n d in g o f

w h a t i t s a y s a s w e l l?
M R M A S E K O : L e t m e ju s t r e a d i t a g a i n C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
M R M A S E K O : Ye s . Th a t i s w h a t i t m e a n s . It m e a n s fr o m t h e 4 t h .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Is w h a t i t m e a n s ?
MR MASEKO: Ja.
CHAIRPERSON:

B u t y o u d i d a s a m a t te r o f f a c t m o v e fr o m G C I S t o

D P S A o n 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 ?
M R M A S E K O : E ff e c t iv e ly o n 2 F e b r u a r y …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

2 0 11 . I w a s n o l o n g e r th e C O o f G C I S . S o y o u c o u l d

s a y t h a t f r o m t h e 2 n d to t h e 3 r d I w a s i n tr a n s i t t o D P - D P S A . S o I d i d

20

n o t g o b a c k to m y o ff ic e a f t e r t h is C a b in e t m e e t in g .

So I had to

p r e p a r e th e s t a te m e n t a n d m a n a g e th e m e d i a p e o p l e .

M a k in g s u r e

t h e r e i s p r o p e r d is tr ib u ti o n o f s t a te m e n ts , i n te r v i e w s a n d a ll o f t h a t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . I u n d e r s t a n d .
M R M A S E K O : B u t th a t w a s e s s e n ti a l ly m y l a s t f u n c t i o n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : B u t I c o u ld - I th in k t h a t o n 3 F e b r u a r y y o u c o u l d s a y I
w a s a lr e a d y t h e D G o f D P S A .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o .
M R M A S E K O : O n - o n th e 4 t h a c c o r d in g to th is .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

N o w I a m - I a m n o t t a lk i n g a b o u t th e l e g a l

p o s i ti o n .
MR MASEKO: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m j u s t t a lk i n g p r a c t ic a lly.
MR MASEKO: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M y u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f y o u r e v id e n c e l a s t ti m e w a s t h a t
y o u a c t u a l ly m o v e d t o D P S A o n t h e s a m e d a y t h a t y o u l e f t G C I S . D i d I
10

m is u n d e r s t a n d t h a t ? Pr a c t ic a l ly.
MR MASEKO:

Pr a c ti c a ll y C h a ir I h a d t o - a f t e r t h e C a b i n e t m e e t i n g

h a d t o s it a n d p r e p a r e th e s t a t e m e n t s .

S o I w a s s t il l d o in g G C I S

d u t ie s .
CHAIRPERSON: GCIS work. Ja.
M R M A S E K O : J a . S t a t e m e n ts ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
C H A I R P E R S O N : D id y o u c o m p l e t e th e d a y, b e c a u s e I u n d e r s t o o d y o u r
…
MR MASEKO: Hm.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u r e v i d e n c e to b e th a t y o u d id n o t s p e n d t h e w h o l e
20

day at GCIS on the day …
MR MASEKO: On the 2nd, yes.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O n t h e 2 n d y o u - y o u l e f t.
M R M A S E K O : S o I c o n t in u e d d o i n g …
CHAIRPERSON:

M y u n d e r s t a n d in g w a s t h a t y o u l e f t - p r a c tic a lly y o u

le f t a n d y o u w e n t t o D P S A , b u t I m a y h a v e m is u n d e r s t o o d t h a t p a r t .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
MR MASEKO:

Ye s .

C h a ir.

T h e c o r r e c t p o s i ti o n is th a t t h e C a b i n e t

m e e ti n g h a p p e n s ( i n t e r v e n e s ) .
CHAIRPERSON: On the 2nd. Ja.
MR MASEKO:

O n t h e 2 n d . S o t h e a ft e r n o o n I s ta y e d o n a t t h e U n i o n

B u il d i n g s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
M R M A S E K O : A n d m a n a g e d m o s t o f m y o p e r a t io n s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:
10

T h e r e a n d if I r e m e m b e r w e ll th e e a r l ie s t b e c a u s e I

could not just rock up DPSA.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h , o k a y.
MR MASEKO: So I had to …
C H A I R P E R S O N : ( In t e r v e n e s ) .
M R M A S E K O : Tr y a n d g e t h o l d o f M i n is t e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : B a lo y i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : To s c h e d u l e a f ir s t m e e t i n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

20

M R M A S E K O : S o th a t w e c a n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
M R M A S E K O : D is c u s s a n d I t h i n k t h e m e e ti n g c o u ld h a v e ta k e n p l a c e
o n t h e 4 t h , b u t I k n o w i t w a s n o t i m m e d ia t e b e c a u s e h e w a s o u t o f t o w n .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a n d - a n d in t e r ms o f y o u r a c t u a l p h y s ic a l

p r e s e n c e a t D P S A w o u l d t h a t h a v e h a p p e n e d fr o m t h e 3 r d o r t h e 4 t h o r

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
you cannot remember?
M R M A S E K O : I c a n n o t r e c a ll e x a c tl y C h a i r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : B u t i t - I - I w a s v e r y c le a r in m y h e a d t h a t I w il l o n l y g o
to DPSA …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : A f t e r I h a v e h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h - w i th t h e M i n i s te r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h th e M in is t e r ?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : W i t h M in is t e r B a l o y i?
M R M A S E K O : W it h M r B a l o y i, s ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. N o . T h a t i s fi n e . L e t u s g o b a c k to t h e
ti m e y o u s p e n t a t D P S A . Yo u s a i d t h a t m o s t o f t h e t i m e b u t m a y b e y o u
s a i d a l l t h e t i m e m e e t in g s w e r e b e i n g h e ld a n d d e c is io n s w e r e b e i n g
t a k e n w h e r e y o u w e r e n o t i n v o l v e d o r in v i t e d to t h e m e e ti n g s . Is t h a t
correct?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s . Th a t i s c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M u s t I s a y a ll - a l l t h e ti m e …
M R M A S E K O : W e ll …

20

CHAIRPERSON: Or most of the time or sometimes?
M R M A S E K O : M o s t - m o s t o f th e - m o s t o f th e ti m e C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : M o s t o f t h e ti m e . O k a y. A lr ig h t . N o w - I ta k e i t th a t
o r d i n a r i ly w h e n y o u a r e a D G t h e r e w o u l d b e - y o u w o u ld k n o w w h a t
you need to do as Director-General of your department and therefore to
t h a t e x t e n t m a y b e y o u d o n o t n e e d t o b e t o l d b y th e M i n is t e r w h a t t o

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
d o . Yo u k n o w w h a t t o d o .
T h i n g s t h a t n e e d t o b e d o n e , b u t I w o u l d ta k e i t th a t th e r e
w o u ld b e s o m e t h i n g s t h a t h e w o u l d s a y p l e a s e ta k e c a r e o f t h a t . Ta k e
c a r e o f th a t o r a s k d o t h a t. P l e a s e m a k e s u r e t h a t t h a t is d o n e a n d s o
o n . A m I r ig h t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

During the time that you spent at DPSA were

t h e r e o c c a s io n s w h e n M i n is t e r B a lo y i a s k e d y o u o r a s k e d y o u t o d e a l
w i t h c e r ta i n t a s k s o r c e r t a in is s u e s o r a s s i g n m e n ts a s D G ?
10

M R M A S E K O : T h a t - t h a t w a s v e r y, v e r y r a r e C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:

A n d t h a t - w h e n I t a lk a b o u t g o v e r n a n c e is s u e s i t i s

e s s e n ti a l ly w h a t t h e m a n a g e m e n t c u l tu r e w a s i n th e d e p a r t m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO: That - and I think the Minister does make the same point
in h i s a ff id a v i t .

T h a t h e - h is s ty l e w a s a b o u t g e t ti n g m a n a g e r s t o

r e p o r t t o h i m a n d - a n d a l l o f th a t a n d - a n d i n m y r e p ly t o w h a t h e
says.

I s a y i t w a s n o t m y v i e w t h a t t h e M i n i s te r m u s t n o t h a v e a n y

c o n ta c t w i t h m a n a g e r s , b u t th a t w e n e e d e d t o h a v e a - a m a n a g e m e n t
20

p r o c e s s - p r o p e r m a n a g e m e n t p r o c e s s s o t h a t if h e m e e t s a m a n a g e r t o
d is c u s s c e r t a i n m a t te r s .
I f s o m e t h i n g g o e s w r o n g h e c a n c o m e t o m e a n d s a y, b u t I
a s k e d t h i s p e r s o n t o d o th is b e c a u s e I w o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n i n t h e lo o p ,
b u t I f o u n d t h a t it w a s a c u l t u r e in t h e d e p a r t m e n t . Th a t t h e M i n is t e r
m e e ts w i t h a ll o f t h e s e n i o r m a n a g e r s . S o m e o f th e e x a m p l e s w o u l d b e

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t h a t w h e n I s e e k a m e e ti n g w i th h i m , w h e n I a r r iv e a t h i s o ff ic e h e w i ll
b e s i t ti n g i n m i n u te - in m e e ti n g s w i t h o n e o r tw o o f m y o ffic ia ls .
T h e y w i ll b e d is c u s s i n g o p e r a ti o n a l is s u e s a n d I - p a r t o f m e
s a i d I m u s t j u s t a c c e p t th is is h o w t h i n g s h a p p e n e d , b u t a n o t h e r p a r t o f
m e s a i d u l ti m a t e ly e v e r y t h in g t h a t h a p p e n s in t h is d e p a r t m e n t I a m
a c c o u n t a b l e f o r a s A c c o u n ti n g O ffi c e r a n d I j u s t f e l t i t w a s n o t
s u s t a i n a b l e , b u t in m y a ff id a v i t I a ls o m a k e t h e p o i n t t h a t i t w a s n e v e r
a n d s t il l is n o t m y v i e w t h a t t h e M i n is te r m u s t n o t h a v e a n y c o n t a c t a t
a l l, b u t t h e r e n e e d s t o b e p a r a m e t e r s .
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : S o m e u n d e r s t a n d in g o f h o w i t s h o u l d ( in t e r v e n e s ) .
M R M A S E K O : S o m e p o li c y to s a y t h i s is h o w t h i n g s h a p p e n …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO: Because - ja.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : I c a n r e a l ly th e r e f o r e n o w C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

S o y o u s a y i t w a s v e r y r a r e d u r in g th a t - y o u r

s t a y a t D P S A o r i t w o u ld h a v e b e e n v e r y r a r e th a t h e a s k e d y o u to d e a l
w i t h a n y p a r tic u la r is s u e s ?
MR MASEKO: It - it may have happened …
20

CHAIRPERSON: But …
MR MASEKO: But it was very rare.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : I t w a s v e r y r a r e C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Now in the absence of that how much work were you
able to do on your own as DG of - of DPSA during that time? Were you

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
- w e r e y o u a b l e t o c a l l m e e ti n g s o f y o u r - y o u r s ta ff a n d d o w h a t n e e d s
t o b e d o n e o r t h a t w a s d i ffic u lt f o r - fo r s o m e r e a s o n s ?
M R M A S E K O : W e ll th e r e w e r e n o r m a l m a n a g e m e n t m e e t in g s t h a t t o o k
p l a c e . I t h i n k t h e y h a p p e n e d w e e k ly o r f o r t n i g h t ly. I c a n n o t r e c a ll . S o
o n e w a s a b l e t o d o a l l o f t h o s e k i n d s o f t h i n g s a n d w h a t I tr ie d t o d o
w a s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t t h o s e b e c o m e r e p o r ti n g lo o p s . S o i f s o m e b o d y
h a s h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h t h e M i n is t e r th e y c o m e a n d t e l l t h e te a m w h a t
t h e y a r e e n g a g e d i n a n d d o t h e y n e e d s u p p o r t d ir e c ti o n a n d o f t h o s e
k in d s o f th in g s .
10

S o w e tr i e d to i n t r o d u c e s o m e p r o c e s s , b u t i t w a s v e r y c l e a r
in m y h e a d t h a t i t i s n o t a s u s t a in a b l e w a y o f - o f m a n a g i n g a n
o r g a n i s a t io n li k e th a t a n d I t h o u g h t - I t h o u g h t I w a s g o in g t o b e a t r is k
a s Ac c o u n ti n g O ff ic e r, b e c a u s e i f t h in g s h a p p e n o r d o n o t h a p p e n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

I cannot say as the DG but I was not involved or I did

n o t k n o w. J a . I w i ll - it w i ll lo o k v e r y b a d o n m e a s a p e r s o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a s t h e e s s e n c e o f th e c h a l le n g e - w a s th e s o u r c e o f
t h e c h a ll e n g e t h e M i n is t e r - M r B a l o y i o r w a s t h e s o u r c e o f t h e
c h a l le n g e h i m p l u s y o u r - y o u r t e a m - y o u r s t a ff m a y b e w h e n th e y w e r e
20

n o t a c c e p t in g y o u e a s i ly b e c a u s e o f h o w y o u c a m e t o t h e d e p a r t m e n t o r
- or where was the challenge?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir, I w o u l d - I w o u l d n o t w a n t t o a t t r i b u t e a l l o f i t t o
t h e M i n is t e r. A l l I c a n s a y is t h a t m y a n a l y s is o f t h e s i tu a ti o n w a s t h a t
it w a s a - a m a n a g e m e n t c u l tu r e in t h a t p l a c e .

That there was not

c la r i ty a b o u t w h e r e d o e s th e M in is t e r ’s r o l e s t a r t a n d e n d . W h e r e d o e s

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t h e D G ’s r o l e s t a r t a n d e n d a n d w h o t a k e s a c c o u n t a b i li ty f o r w h a t?
To j u s t g iv e a n e x a m p l e . I m e a n w h e n I w a s t h e r e o n e o f t h e
m a jo r d e v e l o p m e n t s w a s n e g o t i a t i o n s w i t h t h e u n i o n s a b o u t s a l a r y
in c r e m e n ts a t th e ti m e .

M e e t in g s w e r e h e l d w i t h u n i o n s a n d N a ti o n a l

Tr e a s u r y t o a g r e e o n w h a t s h o u l d b e th e i n c r e m e n t a m o u n t f o r p u b li c
s e r v a n ts a n d t h e r e I w a s a s D G n o t b e i n g p a r t o f a n y o f th o s e
d is c u s s io n s a n d g e tt i n g to k n o w th a t a n a g r e e m e n t is b e in g r e a c h e d o r
n e g o ti a ti o n s a r e ta k i n g p l a c e l e d b y D P S A w it h t h e u n io n s a n d I w a s
r e a d in g a b o u t a l o t o f t h o s e t h i n g s i n th e m e d i a m y s e l f .
10

I t is ju s t o n e e x a m p l e , b u t I w o u l d s a y it is a c u lt u r e th a t
e m e r g e d . Th a t I f o u n d i n t h e d e p a r t m e n t a n d i t m a y v e r y w e l l b e t h a t it
w a s a c u lt u r e th a t e x i s t e d i n o t h e r d e p a r t m e n t . I - I d o n o t k n o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. A l r i g h t . S o - s o o n e y o u s a y y o u - y o u
d o n o t t h i n k M i n i s te r B a l o y i h a d a n y t h in g p e r s o n a l a g a i n s t y o u . Th a t i s
o n e p o in t y o u m a k e . T h e o th e r p o in t y o u I t h in k m a d e w a s th a t m a y b e
h e w a s n o t s o w e l c o m i n g b e c a u s e o f h o w y o u c a m e t o h is d e p a r t m e n t
o n y o u r a n a ly s is .
Three, you say well you had no problem in principle with him
in t e r a c ti n g w it h p e o p l e u n - u n d e r y o u .

20

Yo u j u s t w a n te d th a t th a t

s h o u l d b e m a n a g e d in a p a r t ic u l a r m a n n e r …
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - a n d y o u w e r e n o t ju s t - y o u w e r e s i m p ly n o t a s
in v o lv e d a s y o u e x p e c te d t o b e i n v o l v e d a s D G i n m a t t e r s o f t h e
d e p a r t m e n t - o p e r a t io n a l m a t t e r s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t .
M R M A S E K O : T h a t - t h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. T h e o n l y a d d i ti o n a l m a t t e r

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t o y o u r s u m m a r y is th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO: If anything goes wrong …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO: I was going to be held accountable as DG.
CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u w o u l d b e - j a .

Ye s .

O k a y.

Thank you.

M s H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. J u s t t o c o n c l u d e o n th is a s p e c t o f
y o u r t i m e a t D P S A . I u n d e r s to o d y o u r e v id e n c e e a r l ie r t o b e t h a t y o u
10

d i d n o t c o n c lu d e a c o n tr a c t o f e m p l o y m e n t f o r y o u r ti m e a s D G o f
D P S A . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d t h e r e a r e t h i n g s c a l le d p e r f o r m a n c e a g r e e m e n ts
t h a t s e e m fr o m w h a t w e h a v e s e e n o f t h e s e v a r i o u s m a t t e r s t o b e
c o n c l u d e d b e t w e e n h e a d s o f d e p a r t m e n t w h ic h y o u w e r e b o th a t G C I S
a n d D P S A a n d t h e r e s p o n s ib l e M in is t e r, d i d y o u c o n c l u d e a n y s u c h
a g r e e m e n t i n s o fa r a s y o u r ti m e a t D P S A w a s c o n c e r n e d ?
MR MASEKO:

N o I d i d n o t h a v e a p e r fo r m a n c e a g r e e m e n t .

ADV HOFMEYR:
20

Th a n k y o u , th e n i f w e c o u l d g o b a c k t o N N 5 I w a s

going to take you to a document there that commences at page 44.
CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l j u s t o n e s e c a g a in M s H o f m e y r.

Did you or

M i n is t e r B a l o y i t r y t o r e a c h – c o n c l u d e a p e r fo r m a n c e a g r e e m e n t o r n o t
r e a l ly ?
MR MASEKO:

N o t r e a l ly C h a ir, w e d i d h a v e a c o n v e r s a ti o n a b o u t t h e

need for such but we just never got to it.

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h e n w e ’r e i n N N 5 , E x h i b i t N N 5 a t p a g e 4 4 .

MR MASEKO:

I’v e g o t it .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

Ye s I d o C h a ir p e r s o n .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

D o y o u r e c o g n is e t h a t d o c u m e n t M r M a s e k o ?

W h a t i s i t?

Th is i s a s t a t e m e n t – a m e d i a s ta t e m e n t t h a t I p r e p a r e d

f o ll o w i n g t h e C a b i n e t m e e t i n g t h a t to o k p l a c e o n th e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y
2 0 11 .
10

I t a n n o u n c e s a l l th e d e c is i o n s t h a t w e r e ta k e n a t t h a t C a b i n e t

m e e ti n g , i m p o r ta n tl y t h e l a s t o n e is th e a n n o u n c e m e n t o f m y d e p a r tu r e
fr o m G C I S a n d i f I m a y r e a d i t,
“ C a b i n e t n o t e d t h a t M r M a s e k o … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a s e k o , s o r r y t o i n t e r r u p t, j u s t t o g i v e t h e C h a ir a

r e fe r e n c e , th is i s a t p a g e 4 8 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MASEKO:

T h a t ’s o n p a g e 4 8 y e s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

MR MASEKO:

That paragraph reads,

“ C a b i n e t n o t e d th a t M r T h e m b a M a s e k o w a s t o b e r e d e p lo y e d
20

t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic S e r v ic e a n d A d m i n is tr a t i o n w i t h
i m m e d i a t e e ff e c t .

M r M a s e k o w il l b e r e p l a c e d b y M r J i m m y

Manyi as the new GCIS CO and Government spokesperson”,
A n d i t is d a t e d – s o i t w i ll b e , I d o n ’ t s e e t h e d a te h e r e i t w a s
is s u e d o n t h e 3 r d o f Fe b r u a r y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

I f y o u g o t o p a g e 4 4 t h e fir s t li n e t h e r e s e e m s t o

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
c o n fir m t h a t, c a n y o u r e a d u s t h e f ir s t l i n e ?
MR MASEKO:

So it says,

“ C a b i n e t h e l d i t ’s – t h e v e r y fir s t l i n e s a y s , s t a te m e n t o f t h e
C a b in e t m e e ti n g 2 n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 a n d t h e n , fi r s t li n e s a y s
C a b in e t h e ld i t’s [i n d is t in c t ] m e e ti n g i n P r e to r i a y e s t e r d a y o n
t h e 2 n d o f Fe b r u a r y ” ,
S o th e d a t e o f t h e s t a t e m e n t w i ll b e 3 r d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you, and Mr Maseko you gave evidence a

m o m e n t a g o t h a t a f t e r th e C a b in e t m e e ti n g y o u r e tu r n e d to t h e o ff ic e i n
10

t h e a ft e r n o o n t o s ta r t p r e p a r in g th is s t a te m e n t , d i d I h a v e t h a t c o r r e c t?
MR MASEKO:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u r fir s t a ff id a v i t b e f o r e th e C o m m i s s i o n r e fe r e n c e d

s o m e t h i n g e ls e t h a t h a p p e n e d i n t h a t – d u r i n g t h a t a ft e r n o o n o f t h e
C a b in e t m e e t i n g , d o y o u r e c a l l t h a t?
MR MASEKO:

Ye s I d o .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MASEKO:

What was that?

O k a y d o y o u h a v e it , w h ic h fi le … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u r p r e v i o u s a ffi d a v it a c t u a ll y h a s n o t b e e n p l a c e d

in y o u r fi le b e c a u s e i t ’s a l r e a d y a n e x h i b i t f o r … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
20

MR MASEKO:

B u t I c a n te ll y o u w h a t … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Indeed so if you can just tell us what happened as

w e ll in t h e a f te r n o o n o f t h e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y C a b i n e t m e e t in g .
MR MASEKO:

W e ll a f t e r th e m e e t in g I h a d a m e e t i n g w i th M r C h a b a n e

ju s t t o c o n fi r m t h a t t h is is t h e d e c is io n t a k e n a n d t h a t I c a n s til l
p r o c e e d a n d i s s u e t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d h a n d le i n te r v i e w s . Th e n e x t s te p

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
w a s t o i n te r a c t w i th M i n is t e r – o r M r B a lo y i my n e w M i n i s t e r a t t h e t i m e
t o a g r e e o n a ti m e t o m e e t s e e i n g t h a t I w o u ld b e h is D G .

Then the

n e x t t a s k w a s t o p r e p a r e t h e s t a t e m e n t a n d m a k e s u r e th a t i t’s d o n e
p r o p e r ly a n d I h a d t o fi n d w o r k i n g s p a c e a t t h e U n i o n B u il d in g it w a s
a l lo c a t e d s p a c e a n d I d i d s te a l a f e w m o m e n ts w i th t h e , th e n , D e p u ty
P r e s i d e n t to ju s t s h a r e s o m e o f th e s e e x p e r i e n c e s w i th h i m , a h e a d o f
fi n a l is i n g th e s t a t e m e n t a n d t h e s t a t e m e n t w a s i s s u e d t h e f o l l o w in g d a y
in t h e m o r n in g .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

D i d y o u r e c e iv e a n y c a l l d u r i n g t h e c o u r s e o f t h a t

a ft e r n o o n ?
MR MASEKO:

Ye s I d i d C h a ir, o t h e r t h a n t h e u s u a l c a ll s fr o m t h e

m e d i a to g e t c o n fi r m a ti o n b e fo r e th e s t a t e m e n t a n d I h a d to t e l l t h e m
what was going on.

T h e n m y o ffic e a ls o c a l l e d t o s a y th e y a r e i n a

s i tu a ti o n w h e r e t h e y h a v e t o – t h e y h a v e h a d c a ll s fr o m M r M a n y i t o s a y
h e w a s c o m in g o v e r a n d th e y n e e d e d t o k n o w d o t h e y g iv e h i m a c c e s s
t o th e b u i l d i n g

a n d a l l o f t h a t b e c a u s e r e m e m b e r t h is is j u s t

i m m e d i a t e ly a ft e r t h e C a b in e t m e e ti n g a n d t h e m a t t e r i s a lr e a d y in t h e
media.

S o m y o ffi c e n e e d e d s o m e d ir e c t io n a b o u t w h a t n e e d e d t o

h a p p e n . S o I j u s t s a i d – c o n fir m e d w h a t w a s le a k e d i n t h e m e d i a th a t I
20

w a s n o l o n g e r s p o k e s p e r s o n a n d I a s k e d t h e m t o s t a r t p a c k i n g my
t h i n g s b e c a u s e I w a s n o t g o in g to c o m e b a c k – I n e v e r h a d t h e
o p p o r t u n i ty to s i t d o w n a n d t e l l m y s t a ff p r o p e r ly o r e v e n t o h a v e a s ta ff
m e e ti n g to e x p la i n to – o r n o t to e x p la in a n y t h i n g b u t ju s t t o s a y
g o o d b y e t o th e s t a ff a n d th a t ’s h o w q u ic k l y t h e e v e n ts u n f o l d e d o n th a t
d a y.

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k in y o u r, e i th e r s t a te m e n t o r o r a l e v i d e n c e , I ’ m

u n d e r t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t y o u d i d s a y th a t y o u h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h a
f e w m e m b e r s o f y o u r t e a m a f t e r t h e C a b i n e t m e e ti n g , w h e r e y o u j u s t
t o l d th e m t h a t y o u w e r e l e a v i n g o r y o u h a d b e e n tr a n s fe r r e d n o w – b u t I
d o n ’t k n o w w h e t h e r I’ m s a y i n g y o u s a i d t h a t i n c ir c u m s t a n c e s w h e r e i t
m a y h a v e b e e n M s P h u m la W il li a m s w h o s a i d y o u c a l le d a m e e ti n g in a
b o a r d r o o m t h a t I t h i n k w a s n e x t t o y o u r o ffic e o r s o m e th i n g a t G C I S
a n d i t w a s a fe w o f t h e m , y o u to ld t h e m t h a t y o u w e r e b e in g tr a n s f e r r e d
o r y o u ’r e le a v i n g . Th e y a s k e d y o u w h a t t h e r e a s o n w a s , y o u d id n ’ t t e l l
10

t h e m a n d s h e s a y s i t w a s a s h o r t m e e ti n g a n d a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g s h e
f o ll o w e d y o u t o y o u r o ff ic e h o p in g t o tr y a n d g e t m o r e i n fo r m a t i o n , a s I
r e c a l l h e r e v id e n c e , s h e f o u n d y o u in y o u r o ffi c e a t y o u r d e s k w it h y o u r
h e a d d o w n , I th i n k s h e s a i d , w h ic h I th i n k g a v e th e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t y o u
w e r e e m o t i o n a l ly u n h a p p y, y o u w e r e u n h a p p y b u t s h e , I t h in k s a id , s h e
d i d n ’ t g e t – y o u d id n ’ t t e l l h e r t h e r e a s o n s a n d s o o n . Is t h a t s o m e t h in g
t h a t y o u d id n ’t s a y a n d m a y b e i t w a s s a i d b y s o m e b o d y e l s e ?
MR MASEKO:

I ’l l h a v e t o c h e c k th e r e c o r d s C h a ir, I k n o w t h a t i n t h e

a ft e r n o o n o f t h e s e e v e n ts w h i c h w a s i m m e d i a t e ly a f te r t h e C a b in e t
m e e ti n g th e r e w a s n o t i m e , th e r e w a s n o o p p o r t u n i ty to t a lk t o my s ta ff
20

a n d a s I s a y, I n e e d e d t o g i v e d ir e c ti o n t o my s ta ff a b o u t w h a t n e e d e d
t o h a p p e n i n t h e l ig h t o f w h a t w a s u n f o l d i n g a n d th e e v e n ts w e r e
u n f o l d in g v e r y f a s t s o th e p r i o r it y f o r m e w a s t h e C a b i n e t s ta t e m e n t,
t h e D e p u t y P r e s i d e n t , m e e ti n g w i t h t h e – j a m e e ti n g w i t h m y n e w
M i n is t e r w h o w a s c o m in g s o o n t h a t p a r t ic u l a r d a y t h e e v e n ts w e r e ju s t
t o o q u i c k . I n e v e r h a d t h e ti m e t o g o b a c k t o m y s ta ff t o s a y a p r o p e r

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
g o o d b y e , I n e v e r h a d a c h a n c e t o p a c k , I le f t m y t h i n g s , m y s t a ff d i d
that.

I t is p o s s i b l e t h a t , i n f a c t , i n – d e fi n i t e l y n o t o n t h e s a m e

a ft e r n o o n b u t m a y b e t h e fo ll o w i n g d a y, I m i g h t h a v e g o n e b a c k to m y
o ffic e b u t I n e v e r – I h a d a v e r y c lo s e r e la ti o n s h i p w i t h my s ta ff I w o u l d
h a v e l o v e d t o h a v e a s ta ff m e e t in g a n d s a y a p r o p e r g o o d b y e .

It is

p o s s i b le t h a t I m i g h t h a v e c a ll e d a f e w o f m y Ex c o p e o p le s u b s e q u e n t ly
b u t t h e r e w a s n e v e r a p r o p e r, f o r m a l g o o d b y e t o m y s ta ff .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y I c e r t a i n l y g o t t h e i m p r e s s i o n fr o m w h o e v e r

g a v e t h e e v i d e n c e t h a t i t w a s ju s t a f e w p e o p l e t h a t y o u w e r e a b le t o
10

c a l l v e r y q u ic k ly b u t y o u m i g h t r e fr e s h y o u r m e m o r y a t s o m e s t a g e ja .
MR MASEKO:

I c a n c h e c k o n t h a t C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HOFMEYR:

J a o k a y.
C h a ir j u s t to c o n fir m a s I h a v e i t t h a t w a s th e

e v i d e n c e o f M s W i lli a m s b e f o r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n . M r M a s e k o w e a r e a t,
a n d C h a ir, w e a r e a t t h e o r d i n a r y ti m e o f t h e lu n c h a d jo u r n m e n t I h a v e
v e r y fe w r e m a i n i n g m a t t e r s t o d e a l w i th b u t I’ m i n y o u r h a n d s w h e t h e r
w e c o m p l e te t h a t n o w o r r e t u r n ?
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll i t w o u l d b e p r e f e r a b l e t h a t w e c o m p l e te th a t

n o w i f w e c a n s o th a t w e c a n r e l e a s e M r M a s e k o a n d w h e n w e c o m e
20

b a c k th e n w e c a n – I c a n h e a r t h e e v i d e n c e o f t h e n e x t w i t n e s s . H o w
lo n g d o y o u t h i n k y o u r fe w q u e s t io n s m i g h t b e ?
ADV HOFMEYR:

W e ll I ’ m a n t ic i p a ti n g m y q u e s t i o n s w ill n o t t a k e v e r y

lo n g b u t I’ m b e i n g s i g n a ll e d b y m y c o ll e a g u e s o n t h e r ig h t t o i n d ic a te
t h a t th e y m a y w a n t t o r a is e o n e o r tw o m a tt e r s . In t h e li g h t o f t h a t it
m a y m a k e s e n s e to a d j o u r n a n d t h e n r e tu r n .

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CHAIRPERSON:

I w o u l d p r e f e r t o a v o i d t h a t i f i t ’s p o s s i b l e , I w o u l d

i m a g i n e th a t t h e y m a y h a v e w r i t te n q u e s ti o n s o n p ie c e s o f p a p e r m a y b e
t h e y m ig h t ju s t p a s s t h a t o n to y o u . I t h in k Mr P r e to r i u s in d i c a t e s t h a t
m i g h t b e p o s s ib le s o th a t w e c a n f in is h w i t h h i m i f p o s s i b l e , l e t h i m g o
a n d th e n w h e n w e c o m e b a c k w e s t a r t w i th th e n e w w i t n e s s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

C e r t a in ly C h a i r i t a p p e a r s t h a t I’ m g o i n g t o b e

h a n d e d a c o m p u t e r w h i c h m a y n o t b e th e e a s i e s t m e t h o d . I w o n d e r i f
w e c o u ld p o s s i b l y ta k e a f iv e - m in u t e a d j o u r n m e n t s o t h a t I c a n
e s t a b li s h w h a t t h e is s u e is a n d t h e n c o n c lu d e M r M a s e k o ’s e v i d e n c e
10

s w if t ly, I’ m n o t s u r e if t h a t w i ll b e s u i ta b le ?
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s I’ m j u s t w o n d e r i n g i f w e ’r e g o in g t o t a k e fiv e

m i n u t e s o r w h e th e r w e s h o u l d n ’ t t h e n j u s t t a k e th e l u n c h b r e a k b e c a u s e
y o u m i g h t f in d t h a t t h e y h a v e m a y b e a f e w q u e s ti o n s t h a t t h e y w o u l d
lik e t o s u g g e s t o r M r P r e t o r i u s s a y s i t ’s t w o o r t h r e e . S o l e t ’s t a k e f iv e
m i n u t e s b r e a k a n d t h e n c o m e b a c k a n d tr y a n d fi n i s h w i t h M r M a s e k o .
ADV HOFMEYR:

W e ’r e i n d e b t e d C h a ir, t h a n k y o u .

CHAIRPERSON:

I t w il l b e f iv e m i n u te s , w e ’l l a d j o u r n f o r fiv e m in u t e s ,

we adjourn.
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
20

INQUIRY RESUMES
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s M s H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir w e a r e i n d e b te d f o r th e i n d u lg e n c e .
M r M a s e k o th e la s t d o c u m e n t I w o u l d l ik e to t a k e y o u t o i s i n E x h i b i t
N N 5 a n d i t i s th e d o c u m e n t t h a t p r e c e d e s t h e m e d ia s ta t e m e n t w e w e r e

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
lo o k in g a t . I t is a t p a g e 4 3 .
MR MASEKO: I got it.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

J u s t ta k e a m o m e n t i f y o u w ill t o

c o n s i d e r t h a t d o c u m e n t a n d i n d ic a te t o u s w h e t h e r y o u h a v e s e e n i t
before?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e n o t s e e n t h a t d o c u m e n t b e fo r e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

C a n y o u te ll u s w h a t o n i ts f a c e th e d o c u m e n t

a p p e a r s to b e ?
MR MASEKO:
10

T h e d o c u m e n t p u r p o r t s t o b e a l e t t e r w r it t e n b y M r

C h a b a n e M i n is te r o f G C I S a t th e t i m e a d d r e s s e d t o M r B a l o y i M in is t e r
of DPSA. Should I proceed and read it?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s p le a s e . Fir s t o f a ll c o u l d y o u t e l l u s t h e d a t e o f
t h e le t t e r ?
MR MASEKO:

I t i s d a t e d t h e 2 n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 .

M y s u n g l a s s e s t e ll

m e t h a t i t – t h e r e w a s a b i t o f t i p p e x i n v o l v e d th e r e . B u t th a t i s n e i t h e r
h e r e n o r t h e r e . B u t i t is d a t e d 2 n d F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 . I t s a y s :
D e a r c o ll e a g u e t h i s f r o m M r C h a b a n e – M i n is t e r C h a b a n e to M i n i s t e r
B a lo y i . I t s a y s :
“Dear
20

c o ll e a g u e

tr a n s fe r

of

Mr

Maseko

to

the

D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b l ic S e r v i c e a n d A d m i n is tr a ti o n . I t
r e a d s a s f o l lo w s :
I c o n c u r s u b je c t t o t h e Pr e s i d e n t ’s a p p r o v a l w i t h t h e
tr a n s fe r o f M r T J M a s e k o t h e D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f
G C I S i n te r m s o f S e c t i o n 1 2 . 3 A to t h e p o s t o f
D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f P u b lic S e r v i c e

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a n d A d m i n is tr a t i o n – D P S A t h e p r o p o s e d e ffe c tiv e
d a t e o f th e tr a n s f e r n a m e ly t h e f o ll o w i n g – t h e d a te
f o ll o w i n g t h e d a t e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t s ig n s t h e
P r e s i d e n t ’s

m in u t e s

is

also

supported.

Yo u r s

s in c e r e ly M i n is t e r C h a b a n e . ”
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you Mr Maseko. I understand your evidence to
b e y o u h a d n o t s e e n t h is le t t e r u n ti l to d a y, is t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir I w a s n o t a w a r e o f i ts e x is t e n c e a n d I d id – i t is
t h e fi r s t t i m e I s e e t h e d o c u m e n t .
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you.

I note that it refers to being subject to

t h e P r e s i d e n t ’s a p p r o v a l , d o y o u s e e t h a t?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s i t d o e s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d w e h a v e tr a v e r s e d w i t h y o u t h e P r e s i d e n ti a l

M i n u t e w h ic h w a s d a t e d t h e f o l l o w in g d a y t h e 3 r d F e b r u a r y.

Do you

r e c a l l th a t?
M R M A S E K O : T h a t – I r e c a ll t h a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . T h e n M r M a s e k o i n r e l a ti o n t o y o u r – th e
a ft e r n o o n a f t e r t h e m e e ti n g – a p o lo g ie s C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:
20

Before – I am sorry yes.

Yo u s e e M r M a s e k o th a t

le t t e r is q u i t e i n t e r e s ti n g . I t s t a r ts w i th “ I c o n c u r ” a n d i t i s a d d r e s s e d
t o Mr B a l o y i. T h a t g iv e s m e t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n
s o m e p r io r d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n M i n is te r C h a b a n e a n d M i n is t e r B a lo y i
t h a t is w h y h e s ta r t s t h e l e t t e r w it h “ I c o n c u r ” .

N o w th a t m a y o r m a y

n o t b e tr u e b u t t h a t is t h e i m p r e s s i o n t h a t I a m g e t ti n g .
2 . Th e la s t s e n t e n c e s a y s – o r le t m e f in is h t h i s .

Page 101 of 179

T h e fi r s t s e n t e n c e

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
s a y s “ I c o n c u r w i th th e tr a n s f e r o f M r T J M a s e k o b la h , b la h , b la h .
T h e n t h e s e c o n d s e n t e n c e w h ic h i s th e l a s t s e n te n c e o f t h e l e tt e r s a y s :
“ T h e p r o p o s e d e ff e c t iv e d a te o f t h e tr a n s f e r n a m e ly t h e d a t e f o l lo w in g
t h e d a t e t h a t t h e P r e s i d e n t s i g n s th e P r e s i d e n t ’s M i n u t e i s a ls o
s u p p o r t e d . ” I t r a is e s th e q u e s t i o n w h o w o u l d h a v e p r o p o s e d th a t d a t e
t h a t h e is t a lk i n g a b o u t ? A n d i t a l s o i s a n o t h e r f is s u r e t h a t s e e m s t o
g iv e m e t h e i m p r e s s i o n th a t p r io r to w r i ti n g t h is l e tt e r m a y b e a n d I p u t
it n o h i g h e r th a n t h a t th e r e m a y h a v e b e e n a d is c u s s i o n b e t w e e n
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a n d M i n i s te r B a lo y i .
10

I do not know if you want to

m a k e a n y c o m m e n t w h e t h e r t h a t is th e i m p r e s s io n y o u a ls o g e t o r n o t
n e c e s s a r i ly ?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir th a t is – I a m r e a d i n g th is le t t e r a n d a s I s a y I a m
s e e i n g it f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e .

I w o u l d s h a r e y o u r i n t e r p r e t a ti o n o f t h i s

le t t e r t h a t y o u c o u l d a s s u m e th a t t h e r e h a d b e e n a d is c u s s i o n a n d t h a t
M r B a l o y i w o u l d h a v e w r i t t e n t o Mi n is t e r C h a b a n e p r o p o s i n g a t r a n s f e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A tr a n s f e r d a t e .
M R M A S E K O : Ye s b u t – a n d a tr a n s f e r d a te w h ic h w o u l d r e f e r to t h e
P r e s i d e n ti a l M i n u te w h ic h w a s s i g n e d t h e f o l lo w in g d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
20

MR MASEKO:

B u t m y i n te r p r e t a ti o n o f a l l o f t h i s i s t h a t b e c a u s e a

d e c is i o n h a d b e e n m a d e a n d t h e y w e r e tr y in g t o r e g u l a r is e o r l e g a l is e
t h e p r o c e s s . S o s ig n in g l e tt e r s t o m a k e s u r e t h a t th e tr a n s f e r h a p p e n s .
S o i t w a s i n a s e n s e a n a t te m p t t o m a k e s u r e th a t th e d e c is io n c o m p li e s
w i t h w h a t t h e l a w r e q u ir e s .

That there needs to be agreement, there

n e e d s to b e w r i t te n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON: Well…
MR MASEKO: There needs to be consent.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . W e d o n o t k n o w w h a t ti m e o f th e d a y o n th e 2 n d
F e b r u a r y t h e le t t e r w a s w r i t t e n .

I f i t w a s w r i t te n – it m a y h a v e b e e n

w r i t t e n a f te r t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t a n d a f t e r t h e m e d i a s t a t e m e n t . M a y b e
y o u m ig h t s a y t h e p r o b a b i li ti e s a r e t h a t i t w a s n o t – it c o u ld n o t h a v e
b e e n w r it t e n b e f o r e t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t t o c a b i n e t ?

So maybe the –

r e a l is tic a lly y o u h a v i n g b e e n t h e r e k n o w i n g w h a t h a p p e n e d o n th a t d a y
t h e r e w a s a c a b i n e t m e e ti n g . A t w h a t s t a g e y o u g o t to k n o w th a t y o u
10

w e r e g o i n g to – y o u w e r e g o in g t o b e tr a n s f e r r e d to D P S A . M a y b e y o u
a r e a b l e t o s a y t h e p r o b a b i li ti e s a r e t h a t i t c o u l d – c o u l d o n l y h a v e
b e e n w r i t te n o r i t w a s o n ly w r i t te n a f t e r th e c a b in e t m e e t i n g w h ic h
w o u ld h a v e b e e n a ft e r t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t t o c a b in e t ?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Is w h a t I a m s a y in g m o r e o r l e s s w h a t y o u a r e

t h i n k i n g a s w e ll o r n o t r e a lly ?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s th a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir. W h a t tr i g g e r e d t h e e v e n t s o f
t h e 2 n d F e b r u a r y w a s t h e m e d i a l e a k t o th e – t h e l e a k t o t h e m e d i a t h a t
I w a s f ir e d fr o m G C I S .
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO: And that – based on the events – sequence of events.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : T h a t c a u g h t M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e b y s u r p r is e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm, Hm.
M R M A S E K O : I t c a u g h t M i n i s te r B a l o y i b y s u r p r i s e .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

So the fact that an announcement had to be made at

c a b i n e t s o t h a t – b e c a u s e M in is t e r C h a b a n e a n d I w e r e a w a r e t h a t w e
w e r e p o t e n ti a l ly f a c i n g a P R d i s a s te r f o r g o v e r n m e n t s o w e n e e d e d t o
m a n a g e th is w h o le t h i n g .
CHAIRPERSON:

Hm.

M R M A S E K O : S o M i n is t e r h a d to m a k e a n a n n o u n c e m e n t to c a b in e t s o
t h a t w h e n w e s p e a k c a b in e t c a n n o t c o m p l a in t h a t y o u k n o w h o w d i d y o u
k n o w s u c h a b i g s to r y w a s h a p p e n i n g ?
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : A n d y e t t h e r e w a s a c a b i n e t m e e ti n g a n d y o u d i d n o t te ll
u s a b o u t it .

S o t h a t is w h y a n a n n o u n c e m e n t h a d t o b e m a d e i n

cabinet.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

B u t t h e a n n o u n c e m e n t c o u l d n o t b e t h a t I a m l e a v in g

G C I S . Th e r e h a s t o b e l e a v i n g G C I S t o s o m e w h e r e e ls e b e c a u s e i f i t
w a s j u s t l e a v i n g G C I S i t w o u l d h a v e m e a n t I w a s d i s m is s e d o n t h e d a y.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : A n d t h a t c l e a r l y w o u ld h a v e b e e n a n u n l a w f u l a c t a n d o n
20

t h e p a r t o f g o v e r n m e n t.

S o th e y w e r e t r y in g t o m a n a g e th e s i t u a t io n .

S o t o a n s w e r y o u r q u e s ti o n d ir e c tly C h a ir p e r s o n .

M y a s s e r ti o n w o u l d

b e t h a t s u c h a l e tt e r w a s g e n e r a t e d a f t e r t h e c a b i n e t m e e t in g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A S E K O : A f t e r t h e c a b in e t s t a te m e n t .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M R M A S E K O : A n d t h e c a b in e t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d w h ic h …
MR MASEKO:

A n d t h e P r e s i d e n t i a l m in u te w a s a l s o d o n e a f t e r t h e

c a b i n e t m e e ti n g .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

W h e n i n f a c t t h e l a w r e q u ir e d t h a t a ll o f t h e s e t h in g s

must happen the other way around.
. C H A I R P E R S O N : H m . A n d y o u r – y o u r t h i n k in g – w o u l d y o u r t h i n k i n g
b e t h a t to th e e x te n t t h a t t h e le t t e r m a y r e f l e c t t h a t t h e r e w a s a
10

d is c u s s io n b e t w e e n M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a n d M i n is t e r B a l o y i a b o u t y o u r
tr a n s fe r o n th e 2 n d o r – j a l e t u s s a y o n t h e 2 n d . I t p r o b a b l y w a s a f te r
y o u h a d s p o k e n to M i n i s t e r B a lo y i ?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir i t i s d i ffic u l t t o …
C H A I R P E R S O N : It is v e r y d i ff ic u l t to s a y.
M R M A S E K O : To s a y b e c a u s e in – I w a s n o t p r i v y t o th e c o n v e r s a t i o n s
that…
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : To o k p l a c e b e t w e e n th e t w o M i n is t e r s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

20

MR MASEKO:

I c a n n o t e v e n c o n fi r m w h e th e r th o s e c o n v e r s a ti o n s d i d

t a k e p la c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : A l l I a m c e r ta in o f is t h a t w h e n M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e s p o k e
t o m e h e d i d n o t i n d ic a te t h a t h e w a s s p e a k in g t o M i n is te r B a l o y i .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M R M A S E K O : W h e n I s p o k e t o M in is t e r – Mr B a lo y i h e w a s n o t a w a r e
that an announcement.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : O r t h is d e c i s i o n w a s m a d e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MASEKO:

S o i t is d i ff ic u l t f o r m e t o c o n f ir m if t h e r e w e r e

c o n v e r s a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : B e t w e e n t h e tw o o f t h e m .
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

T h e r e a s o n w h y I w a s r e f e r r i n g t o th e s e t w o

f e a t u r e s o f t h i s l e t t e r i s s i m p ly M r B a l o y i’s v e r s i o n in h i s a ff id a v i t .
M R M A S E K O : Ye s .
CHAIRPERSON:
with you.

T h a t h e h a d i n te r a c t e d w it h M i n i s te r C h a b a n e a n d

O f c o u r s e y o u h a v e i n d ic a t e d y o u r p o s i ti o n t h a t a s f a r a s

y o u r tr a n s f e r fr o m G C I S t o D P S A i s c o n c e r n e d t h e r e w a s n o d i s c u s s io n
b e t w e e n y o u r s e l f a n d M i n is t e r B a l o y i p r io r to th e a n n o u n c e m e n t t o
c a b i n e t . B u t i n s o f a r a s h e m a y b e s a y i n g h e d i d h a v e d is c u s s i o n s w i th
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e y o u d o n o t k n o w.

A l l y o u k n o w is th a t w h e n y o u

s p o k e t o h i m h e w a s s u r p r is e d t h a t y o u w e r e h is n e w D G a n d h e s a i d
20

he was – he had not been consulted.
M R M A S E K O : T h a t is c o r r e c t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a s e k o i f I c a n t h e n j u s t t a k e y o u t o o n e e a r li e r

p a g e t h a n p a g e 4 2 – 3 in N N 5 a n d th a t i s p a g e 4 2 .

Mr Maseko I am

m i n d f u l o f th e f a c t th a t i f t h e r e is a d o c u m e n t y o u h a v e n o t s e e n b e f o r e

Page 106 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
a n d y o u w e r e n o t i n v o l v e d i n t h e p r o d u c ti o n o r r e c e ip t o f y o u r
a s s is t a n c e m a y b e l i m i te d .

B u t I w o u ld lik e to a s k i n r e s p e c t o f t h e

document at page 42 which is headed Explanatory Memorandum
w h e t h e r y o u h a v e s e e n t h a t d o c u m e n t b e fo r e ?
M R M A S E K O : C h a ir p e r s o n I h a v e n o t s e e n t h is d o c u m e n t b e f o r e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u r e v i d e n c e p r e v i o u s l y w a s t h a t y o u h a d r e c e iv e d

n o c a b i n e t m e m o r a n d u m r e la t in g t o t h e tr a n s f e r s p r i o r t o t h e m e e ti n g o f
2 Fe b r u a r y 2 0 11 , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A S E K O : Ye s i t i s c o r r e c t .
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : C o u l d th is b e t h e c a b in e t m e m o r a n d u m ?
M R M A S E K O : T h i s is n o t d o n e i n …
CHAIRPERSON:

I n o th e r w o r d s c o u ld – w o u ld – w o u l d a c a b i n e t

m e m o r a n d a s u c h a s t h e o n e s y o u w e r e t a lk i n g a b o u t w h ic h w o u l d b e
r e c e i v e d b y M in is t e r s a n d y o u r s e l f a h e a d o f c a b i n e t m e e ti n g s w o u l d
t h e y b e l ik e t h i s ?
MR MASEKO: This…
CHAIRPERSON:

D o e s t h is l o o k l ik e – d o e s i t c o n f o r m t o h o w t h e y

w o u ld lik e ?
M R M A S E K O : T h i s d o e s n o t c o n fo r m t o a n y o f t h e c a b in e t m e m o r a n d a
20

t h a t I a m a w a r e o f C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

If somebody were to produce this to me I would not

k n o w w h a t t h is d o c u m e n t is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : I c a n n o t e x p la in i t.

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u C h a ir. I t is a m a t t e r t h a t w e i n te n d t o ta k e
up with Mr Baloyi.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : In d u e c o u r s e i n h is e v id e n c e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a s e k o th e n i n r e l a ti o n t o my la s t q u e s t i o n

s u b j e c t t o m e s s a g e s f r o m m y c o ll e a g u e s o r i n d e e d C h a i r f u r t h e r
q u e s t io n s y o u m a y h a v e .
10

Mr M a s e k o t h a t a f t e r n o o n o f t h e c a b i n e t

m e e ti n g o n t h e 2 n d Fe b r u a r y d i d y o u r e c e iv e a n y c o m m u n ic a ti o n f r o m
Mr Gupta?
MR MASEKO:

C h a ir I d i d – a t t h e ti m e I d id h a v e h i s n u m b e r o n m y

phone.
ADV HOFMEYR:

O h s o r r y a n d j u s t to b e c l e a r w h i c h o f t h e G u p t a

f a m ily m e m b e r s w a s t h a t ?
M R M A S E K O : T h e o t h e r o n e . I t is A j a y G u p t a .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
MR MASEKO:

J a I s a w t h e n u m b e r t h e c a l l r e f l e c ti n g b u t b e c a u s e o f

t h e s t a te o f m in d I w a s in I j u s t i g n o r e d t h e c a l l .
20

A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u . C h a ir t h o s e a r e o u r q u e s t io n s .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y a lr ig h t .

L e t u s g o b a c k to t h e m e m o r a n d a

e x p l a n a t o r y m e m o r a n d a – I a m a t p a g e 4 2 M r M a s e k o . Yo u h a v e s a id
t h a t th is m e m o r a n d u m d o e s n o t lo o k l ik e t h e k i n d o f m e m o r a n d u m t h a t
u s e d t o b e g i v e n to M i n is t e r s a n d y o u r s e l f a h e a d o f c a b i n e t m e e ti n g s .
A r e y o u a b l e t o t e ll m e s o m e o f t h e f e a tu r e s th a t s u c h m e m o r a n d a

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
w o u ld h a v e t h a t m a k e t h e m d i ff e r e n t fr o m t h i s o n e ?
s ig n e d b y a p a r t ic u l a r M i n i s te r f o r e x a m p l e ?

Would they be

W h a t e ls e w o u ld t h e y

h a v e ? W o u l d t h e y h a v e t h e l e t te r h e a d s o f t h e d e p a r t m e n t c o n c e r n e d o r
n o t – m a y b e n o t l e tt e r h e a d s ?
remember

as

some

of

th e

W h a t – w h a t f e a tu r e s w o u l d y o u

fe a t u r e s

that

would

be

in

such

a

memorandum?
MR MASEKO:

T h e c a b i n e t m e m o r a n d a i s p r e s c r ib e d in g o v e r n m e n t .

S o t h e l o g o is n o t a r e q u ir e m e n t . I t w il l h a v e th e w h o l e – th e c o v e r i n g
le t t e r o b v i o u s ly.
10

B u t th e r e w il l b e i n tr o d u c t io n w h i c h e x p l a i n s t h e

p o li c y is s u e th a t is b e i n g d is c u s s e d . I t w i l l h a v e a b a c k g r o u n d . I t w i ll
b e – i t w i ll o u tl in e t h e p r o c e s s t h a t w a s f o l lo w e d . I t h a s t o p i c s s u c h a s
have all…
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h t h e w a y t h e m e m o r a n d u m . . . [ in t e r v e n e s ]
M R M A S E K O : S o i t is a f o r m a t ti n g .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e m e m o r a n d u m w o u ld b e s t r u c t u r e d .
M R M A S E K O : I t is – t h e r e is a … .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is d i ffe r e n t fr o m t h is o n e .
M R M A S E K O : I t is w a y d i ff e r e n t fr o m th is .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W a y d i ff e r e n t .

20

MR MASEKO:

S o i t w il l – i t w i ll h a v e t o i n d ic a te w h e t h e r t h e r e h a s

b e e n s u ffic i e n t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t th e p u r p o s e o f t h e m e m o r a n d u m is m a y b e .
MR MASEKO:

C o n s u l t a t i o n . J a p u r p o s e – h a v e y o u c o n s u l te d – w h o

have you consulted?
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M R M A S E K O : Fi n a n c i a l i m p l ic a ti o n s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : A n d a ll o f t h o s e k i n d s o f t h i n g s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A S E K O : S o C h a ir h a v in g n o t s e e n t h is d o c u m e n t b e fo r e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MASEKO:

M y o n l y r e a s o n i n g c o u l d b e t h a t i t is a m e m o r a n d u m

t h a t w a s p r e p a r e d to t h e Pr e s id e n t w h ic h m a y h a v e b e e n a tt a c h e d t o
t h e P r e s id e n ti a l m i n u te w h ic h g iv e s – b e c a u s e t h e P r e s id e n t n o r m a l ly
10

d o e s n o t s i g n a o n e p a g e r c a b in e t o r P r e s i d e n ti a l m i n u t e . Th e r e n e e d s
t o b e a n o te e x p l a i n in g w h a t t h i s is a b o u t – w h a t s e e k s to a c h i e v e . B u t
a g a in s p e c u l a ti n g I d o n o t k n o w w h a t th is d o c u m e n t i s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. N o t h a n k y o u v e r y. T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h fo r
having come back to…
A D V H O F M E Y R : C h a ir a p o lo g ie s . I f I m a y ju s t – t h e r e is a fo ll o w u p
q u e s t io n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O h o k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

J u s t a r is in g f r o m y o u r q u e s ti o n b e c a u s e w h e n w e

lo o k e d a t E x h i b i t M 2 w h i c h w a s t h e e x a m p l e o f t h e c a b i n e t m i n u t e t h a t I
20

h a n d e d u p fr o m M i n i s te r G o r d h a n ’s e v id e n c e . W e w e r e l o o k i n g a t th e
s m a ll t e x t u n d e r p a r a g r a p h 5 . 3 . A n d I a s k e d f o r y o u r c o m m e n t e a r li e r
o n t h e f a c t t h a t t h e r e s e e m e d t o b e n u m b e r s a p p li e d t o c a b in e t
m e m o r a n d a b e c a u s e th is r e a d s : C a b i n e t M e m o r a n d u m 5 o f 2 0 1 6 . C h a ir
ju s t a s a f o l lo w u p t o y o u r q u e s t io n a s t o w h a t a r e t h e n o r m a l f e a t u r e s
o f c a b in e t m e m o r a n d a w o u ld y o u e x p e c t t o s e e a n a ll o c a te d n u m b e r o n

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
a memorandum?
MR MASEKO:

I t w o u l d h a v e – i t w o u ld h a v e a n a l l o c a t e d n u m b e r. I t

w i ll b e s i g n e d b y th e M in is t e r s t a ti n g t h e p r o c e s s th a t w a s f o ll o w e d . S o
w i t h o u t a n y s h a d e o f a d o u b t C h a ir p e r s o n t h is is – t h a t p a g e t h a t w e
h a v e ju s t l o o k e d a t is n o t a c a b in e t m e m o r a n d u m w i t h o u t a d o u b t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. T h a n k y o u .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Maseko.
MR MASEKO: Thank you.
10

CHAIRPERSON:

Fo r h a v i n g c o m e b a c k t o g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d c la r i fy

c e r t a i n m a t t e r s . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d a n d i f a n o t h e r n e e d a r is e s f o r u s t o
a s k y o u to c o m e b a c k w e w i ll a s k y o u . W e h o p e t h a t m a y b e i t m ig h t n o t
be necessary now that you have come back. I think it is the second or
t h ir d ti m e ? B u t t h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h . Yo u a r e e x c u s e d .
M R M A S E K O : T h a n k y o u C h a ir p e r s o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a r e g o in g t o t a k e t h e lu n c h a d jo u r n m e n t .

I t is

n o w a b o u t t w e n ty e ig h t m i n u t e s , t w e n ty n i n e m i n u te s p a s t o n e . W e w i ll
resume at half past two. We adjourn.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
20

R E G I S T R A R : A ll r is e .
INQUIRY ADJOURNS
INQUIRY RESUMES
CHAIRPERSON:

M s H o f m e y r I s e e m t o b e w i t h o u t a p e n th is

a ft e r n o o n . Th e y w il l tr y a n d g e t o n e f o r m e , b u t I t h i n k w e c a n - w e c a n
proceed.

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . T h a n k y o u .
ADV HOFMEYR: Chair we next have the evidence of Mr Manyi who is
a ls o a r e t u r n i n g w i tn e s s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : If I m a y r e q u e s t t h a t h e b e s w o r n i n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . G o o d a ft e r n o o n M r M a n y i . T h a n k y o u . P l e a s e
…
M R M A N Y I : G o o d a f te r n o o n C h a ir.
10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please swear him in.
R E G I S T R A R : P le a s e s t a te y o u r fu ll n a m e s f o r th e r e c o r d .
M R M A N Y I : M z w a n e l e M a n y i.
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u h a v e a n y o b j e c t io n t o t a k i n g t h e p r e s c r i b e d o a t h ?
MR MANYI: No. I do not.
REGISTRAR:

D o y o u c o n s i d e r t h e o a th t o b e b i n d in g o n y o u r

conscience?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I d o .
R E G I S T R A R : D o y o u s w e a r t h a t t h e e v id e n c e y o u w i ll g iv e w i ll b e t h e
tr u th , t h e w h o le tr u t h a n d n o t h i n g b u t th e tr u t h if s o p l e a s e r a i s e y o u r
20

r ig h t h a n d a n d s a y s o h e l p m e G o d .
MR MANYI: So help me God.
M R M A N Y I : ( d u l y s w or n , s t a t e s )
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . Yo u m a y p r o c e e d M s H o f m e y r.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k y o u C h a ir.

C h a i r M r M a n y i’s a ffi d a v i t b e f o r e

t h e C o m m i s s i o n is i n t h e fi le c o n t a i n i n g a l l o f th e a ffi d a v it s fo r th e

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e v i d e n c e o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f t h is w e e k . I p r o p o s e th a t h is a ff id a v i t b e
e n t e r e d a s E X H I B I T N N 2 a n d M r M a n y i y o u w i ll fi n d i t i n t h e fil e i n fr o n t
o f y o u u n d e r th e s e c o n d t a b .
CHAIRPERSON:

Mr M z w a n e l e - M z w a n e l e M a n y i ’s a ffi d a v i t c o n ta i n e d

in t h e le v e r a r c h fi l e m a r k e d N N w il l b e m a r k e d N N 2 .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t p a g e is i t?
A D V H O F M E Y R : It c o m m e n c e s o n p a g e 1 .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh I found it.
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : In d e e d . I - w e w il l b e u n d e r t w o p r e d o m in a n t ly …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d t h e n w e m a y m o v e t o o n e o r o th e r o f t h e

a ffi d a v i ts a s w e d id w i t h Mr M a s e k o e a r l i e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a n y i y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e a t t h e C o m m is s i o n in

N o v e m b e r o f l a s t y e a r a s I h a v e i t o n t h e 1 4 t h , th e 2 6 t h a n d
2 7 N o v e m b e r. C a n y o u c o n f ir m t h a t ?
M R M A N Y I : C h a ir p e r s o n ju s t b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
20

M R M A N Y I : J u s t - ju s t b e fo r e w e p r o c e e d C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI:

T h i s ja c k e t is m a k in g m e h o t .

ja c k e t C h a ir ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : If y o u a r e f e e li n g t o o h o t .
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .

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Is i t o k a y i f I ta k e o ff m y

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t is o k a y.
M R M A N Y I : T h a n k y o u . I j u s t w a n t e d t o a d d r e s s th e C h a i r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : O n th e i s s u e - is s u e o f p r o c e d u r a l f a ir n e s s …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI:

W h i c h I d o n o t th i n k I a m r e c e iv i n g C h a ir a n d I w a n t t o

s t a te w h y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s . P r o c e e d .
M R M A N Y I : O n - o n 2 5 O c to b e r …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A N Y I : I r e c e i v e d c o r r e s p o n d e n c e fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
M R M A N Y I : A s k in g m e to c o m e a n d a p p e a r h e r e t o g iv e o r a l e v i d e n c e .
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MANYI:

P a r t o f w h a t is s a id in t h e m e m o r a n d u m is t h a t I m u s t

c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e a n d b e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s o n t h e w i t h d r a w a l o f
y o u r d is m i s s a l fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r b y M i n i s te r O li p h a n t o n
y o u r tr a n s f e r fr o m y o u r p o s i ti o n o f D G o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r t o t o G C I S a n d t h e n - a n d m a t t e r s r e l a t e d in c id e n t a l t o th a t .
20

I th e n r e s p o n d e d to t h is C h a ir p e r s o n .

I s a i d to - t o t h e

S e c r e t a r i a t t h a t I a m c o n fu s e d a s t o w h a t h a s t h is g o t t o d o w i t h t h e
S t a te C a p tu r e m a n d a t e b e c a u s e fr o m w h e r e I s i t t h i s i s a p u r e H u m a n
R e s o u r c e s m a t t e r - L R A m a t t e r - C C M A a n d s t u ff . W h a t h a s th a t g o t t o
d o w i t h - w i t h t h i s - w i th t h e S t a t e C a p tu r e m a n d a t e ?
I g o f u r th e r. I s a y t h a t i n a n y e v e n t p e o p le t h a t w e r e a c t o r s

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
in t h is s p a c e w e r e a c t u a l ly M i n is te r s . I t i s a M in is t e r m a t t e r t h a t w o u ld
h a v e s u s p e n d e d m e . I t i s a M i n is te r t h a t w o u ld h a v e p u r p o r t e d t o h a v e
d is m i s s e d m e . I t i s a M i n i s t e r t h a t w o u l d h a v e r e in s t a t e d m e . I t i s a
M i n is t e r t h a t w o u ld h a v e tr a n s f e r r e d m e . S o w h e r e d o I c o m e i n ?
I f a n y b o d y h a s t o g i v e a n y c l a r i ty h e r e .
E x e c u t iv e A u th o r i ty le v e l .

Not me.

I t is p e o p le a t

I was a subject of - of these

d e c is i o n s . S o w h a t I a m c o m i n g to d o h e r e a n d I s a i d I d o n o t w a n t t o
b e c o m in g h e r e a n d w a s t e t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s t i m e s a y i n g I d o n o t k n o w.
I d o n o t k n o w, b e c a u s e th e s e w e r e d e c i s io n s t h a t w e r e t a k e n b y t h e
10

E x e c u t iv e A u t h o r i t ie s o v e r m e .
S o w h a t h a s t h a t g o t t o d o w it h m e ? S o I w r i te b a c k to t h e m
a n d I s a y i f - u n l e s s t h e r e w a s p e r h a p s a - I s a id u n le s s if th e r e w a s
p e r h a p s a c o n tr a d ic t io n i n m y e a r li e r te s ti m o n y a n d I - a n d I d o n o t
b e c o m e g e n e r a l C h a ir.

I a ls o b e c o m e s p e c i f ic i n th e l e t te r.

I say

n a m e ly t h e is s u e o f m y t r a n s f e r.
N o w p a r t o f t h e d o c u m e n ts th a t I w a s g i v e n is t h e - is t h e
a ffi d a v i t o f f o r m e r M i n is t e r O l i p h a n t. N o w M s O l ip h a n t e x p l a i n s a l o t o f
t h i n g s , b u t a t t h e e n d s h e t h e n e x p l a i n s t h a t s h e t h e r e f o r e r e in s ta t e d
m e . S h e t h e r e f o r e a g r e e d t o t h e tr a n s fe r. S h e w a n t e d m e tr a n s f e r r e d
20

e tc e t e r a .
S o I t h e n s a y to - to th e C o m m i s s io n i f a n y t h i n g w h a t I h a d
s a i d w h e n I w a s h e r e l a s t is th a t I w a s tr a n s fe r r e d .
M i n is t e r O li p h a n t h a s s a i d is n o t a d e v i a ti o n fr o m t h a t .

So what
S h e is s ti ll

s a y in g I g o t tr a n s f e r r e d . S o - s o t h e r e - s o fr o m w h e r e I s i t t h e r e is n o
c o n tr a d ic ti o n .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
T h e y p ic k u p a c o n tr a d ic ti o n b e c a u s e I s a i d I w a s s u s p e n d e d
a n d s h e s a id w a s I d is m i s s e d o r I s a i d - s o I a m s a y i n g C h a ir h e r e th a t
w h e t h e r a n d w e c a n g o in t o t h a t a t t h e r ig h t t i m e , b u t w h e t h e r i t is
s u s p e n s i o n o r d i s m is s a l o r w h a t e v e r - b o t t o m l in e i s t h a t - b o t to m l in e
is th a t th a t w h o le t h i n g w a s r e s c in d e d a n d b o t to m l in e is th a t I w a s
t h e n tr a n s f e r r e d w h ic h w a s m y o r i g i n a l te s t i m o n y.
S o w h a t e x a c tl y a m I d o in g h e r e ? Th e n I g e t s u b p o e n a e d t o
come here. So I am - I am coming here. I am coerced to come here.
So I come here under a subpoena. Now the subpoena comes and the
10

s u b p o e n a n o t w i t h s t a n d in g th a t i t a ls o w a s a t a w r o n g a d d r e s s a n d I a m
e v e n w o r r i e d a b o u t th a t C h a ir, b e c a u s e i f t h e y h a d t h e w r o n g a d d r e s s ,
b e c a u s e j u s t b e f o r e y o u k n o w t h e n t h e y s a y t h e y c a n n o t f in d y o u .
Then before you know there is a warrant of arrest and all of
t h e s e th in g s . N o w I d o n o t k n o w h o w th e C o m m i s s i o n c a n n o t k n o w m y
a d d r e s s . T h e y c o m e u p w i th s o m e a d d r e s s i n C a p e To w n , C l a r e m o n t .
N o w I h a v e n e v e r e v e n s e t fo o t i n C l a r e m o n t , b u t s o m e h o w I h a v e a n
a d d r e s s t h e r e , b u t th a t i s a s i d e is s u e . T h e is s u e C h a ir is t h a t - th e n
t h e - t h e n th e s u m m o n s c o m e a n d t h e s u m m o n s r a is e s t h r e e b r o a d
areas.

20

I t s a y s y o u a r e s u b p o e n a e d to c o m e a n d d o o n e , t w o , th r e e .
T h e fi r s t o n e y o u r te n u r e a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r. Yo u r t e n u r e a t
G C I S a n d a n y o t h e r m a t t e r.

N o w C h a ir, h o w d o y o u p r e p a r e t o th e

Commission with such a broad canvas.

I mean Department of Labour

o n i ts o w n is a h u g e d e p a r t m e n t .
W h e n s o m e b o d y s a y s y o u r te n u r e a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
L a b o u r I i m m e d ia t e l y t h i n k o f w h a t c o u l d i t b e .

I h a d C o m p e n s a ti o n

F u n d . I h a d U I F. I h a d t h e e n ti r e d e p a r t m e n t o f 7 5 0 0 p e o p le . S o w h a t
e x a c tl y i s t h e is s u e a n d th e n G C I S a s w e l l i s a h u g e d e p a r t m e n t h a d
s u b s i d ia r i e s a n d a ll t h a t .
W h a t is i t - w h e n - w h e n a - a s u b p o e n a s a y s y o u r te n u r e i n
t h o s e p l a c e s . I t i s a - i t is o p e n e n d e d . I t is a b l a n k c h e q u e a n d th e n
o v e r a n d a b o v e t h a t b l a n k c h e q u e th e n i t s a y s a n y o t h e r m a t t e r t h a t is
in t h e b r i e f o f t h e C o m m i s s io n .

S o C h a i r I a m h e r e s a y in g I d o n o t

t h i n k th a t i s f a ir. I a m n o t a d e q u a te ly p r e p a r e d t o c o m e h e r e .
10

L u n c h t i m e to d a y A d v o c a t e H o ff m a n ( s ic ) s a n d s a y s t o m e
c a n I g iv e y o u a b u n d le fr o m D P S A .

I m e a n t h i s is l ik e t o d a y lu n c h

ti m e . C a n I g iv e y o u a b u n d l e fr o m D P S A ? Th e n I s a y o k a y. H o w t h i c k
is th is t h i n g ?

S h e s a y s s o m e t h i n g li k e t h is .

I stated to her how can

y o u e x p e c t m e b e tw e e n 2 o ’ c l o c k a n d h a l f p a s t t w o t o i n t e r n a lis e
w h a t e v e r i s b e i n g s a i d i n t h a t b u n d le a n d a ll th a t .
S o C h a ir I a m h e r e s a y i n g I th i n k f ir s t o f a l l e v e n t h e
C o m m i s s i o n I d o n o t t h i n k t h e y a r e r e a d y f o r m e , b u t I a m c e r ta in ly a m
n o t r e a d y. I th in k I s h o u ld - t h e r e - th e r e s h o u l d h a v e b e e n a b i t m o r e
tr a n s p a r e n c y. T h e r e s h o u ld h a v e b e e n a b it m o r e f a i r n e s s a n d I s h o u l d
20

h a v e b e e n g iv e n a m p l e o p p o r t u n i ty t o p r e p a r e .
I t h i n k t h e p u r p o s e o f t h e C o m m i s s io n is t o a s s is t t h e
C o m m i s s i o n t o g e t t o t h e t r u t h . I t is n o t to b e tr i c k e d . R i g h t n o w C h a ir
I m u s t t e ll y o u I f e e l l ik e I a m h e r e fo r a n a m b u s h . T h i s i s h o w I f e e l ,
b e c a u s e m e m o r a n d u m s w i ll b e p o p p i n g u p l e f t, r i g h t a n d c e n tr e .
y o u r e c o g n i s e t h is ?

Page 117 of 179

Do

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
T h e n I w i ll b e l o o k i n g w it h c a m e r a s a ll o n m e a n d l o o k i n g
s t u p i d . I d o n o t w a n t t o l o o k s tu p i d C h a i r p e r s o n . I w a n t to c o m e h e r e
f u ll y p r e p a r e d a n d t h e n I c a n d e a l w i th m a t t e r s , b u t I d o n o t th i n k I
s h o u l d a ll o w m y s e l f to g o i n t o a n a m b u s h l ik e th is , b e c a u s e f o r m e I
t h i n k i t i s a n a m b u s h a n d i n c o n c l u s io n C h a ir I a m a s k i n g f o r a n
a d j o u r n m e n t u p u n t il t h e C o m m is s i o n c a n g iv e m e a l l t h e th in g s I n e e d
t o c o n s i d e r a n d - a n d i f t h e r e a r e a r e a s t h a t th e y w a n t t o tr a v e r s e w i th
me.
T h e y d o n o t h a v e t o g iv e m e s p e c i f ic q u e s ti o n s . E v e n if t h e y
10

g iv e m e a r e a s t o tr a v e r s e .

They must give me that so at least I

p r e p a r e . J u s t n o w - I m e a n i t is n o t f a ir C h a ir t h a t I c o m e h e r e b a s e d
o n m e m o r y o f w h a t h a p p e n e d in 2 0 1 2 a n d th e n I a m s i t ti n g h e r e w i t h
a d v o c a t e s th a t a r e s it t in g w i th b u n d l e s w h ic h th e y h a v e s t u d i e d th e s e
bundles.
T h e y k n o w th e m b a c k w a r d s a n d th e n I m u s t s i t h e r e a n d r e ly
o n m e m o r y o f 2 0 1 2 . T h is is g r o s s ly u n f a ir C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h a n k y o u Mr M a n y i a n d i t is g o o d th a t i f y o u f e e l

t h a t y o u a r e n o t b e in g tr e a t e d f a ir ly t h a t y o u h a v e b e e n a b l e t o
a r ti c u la t e h o w y o u f e e l a b o u t t h e m a t t e r.
20

I a m g o i n g t o a ll o w

Ms Hofmeyr to say something in response.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a n k y o u C h a ir. C h a ir t h e r e h a s b e e n n o a m b u s h o f
M r M a n y i t o d a y a n d I m a k e th a t s u b m is s io n o ff t h e b a c k o f th e
e n g a g e m e n ts th a t h a v e t a k e n p la c e w i t h M r M a n y i p r e c e d in g t o d a y a n d
I w o u l d li k e to b e g i n th a t b e c a u s e t h e r e is r e c o r d o f i t . In N N 2 w h i c h is
t h e e x h i b i t o f M r M a n y i’s e v i d e n c e a n d i t c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 1 - 1 - 7 .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C h a ir i t is n o t n e c e s s a r y to g o to a ll o f th e s e d o c u m e n t s , b u t
I ju s t w a n t t h e r e c o r d t o r e f l e c t t h a t t h e y e x i s t th e r e . T h e i n te r a c t i o n s
w i t h Mr M a n y i c o m m e n c e d in a le t t e r d a t e d 1 6 O c t o b e r o f t h i s y e a r. I
d o u n d e r s t a n d t h a t i t w a s o n l y r e c e iv e d b y M r M a n y i I t h i n k o n
1 8 O c to b e r, b u t i t w a s a le t t e r t h a t i d e n ti f i e d f o r M r M a n y i th a t s i n c e h is
la s t e v id e n c e t h e r e h a d b e e n f u r th e r in v e s t ig a ti o n s o f t h e C o m m is s i o n .
T h e r e h a d a ls o b e e n a f u r t h e r a ff id a v i t t h a t h a d b e e n
r e c e i v e d f r o m M s W il li a m s in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h h is c o m m e n t a n d
r e s p o n s e w a s s o u g h t a n d t h e n t h e l e t te r i d e n t i fi e d c e r ta i n fu r t h e r a r e a s
10

o f i n v e s t ig a ti o n in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h M r M a n y i s p e c if ic a n s w e r t o a
detailed set of questions was set out.
A ll o f t h a t r e l a te d t o h is te n u r e a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r.
D i s c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s e d t h a t w e r e e m b a r k e d u p o n in r e l a t i o n t o h i m
w h il e h e w a s t h e r e . T h e c h a r g e s t h a t h e fa c e d . T h e o u tc o m e o f t h a t
process.

W h e t h e r in d e e d h e w a s t e r m i n a t e d a s a c o n s e q u e n c e o r

during that process.
W h e t h e r th e r e h a d b e e n a n y a p p e a l a g a i n s t t h e d e c is i o n t o
t e r m in a t e h i m .
t e r m in a ti o n .
20

H e w a s p r o v id e d w i t h a c o p y o f t h e le t t e r o f
T h a t is s i g n e d b y f o r m e r M i n is t e r M d la d la n a d a t e d

2 9 O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 a n d s o it s e t s o u t a ll t h e a r e a s o f p a r ti c u l a r i n q u ir y o f
t h e C o m m is s i o n a s a t t h e m id d l e o f O c to b e r.
T h a t w a s th e n f o ll o w e d b y a m e e ti n g w i t h Mr M a n y i th a t t o o k
p l a c e o n - I t h i n k i t w a s M o n d a y 2 1 O c t o b e r.

M y l e a r n e d f r i e n d w il l

c o r r e c t m e i f I a m w r o n g . M r M a n y i w a s b r o u g h t u p fr o m C a p e To w n f o r
t h e p u r p o s e s o f th a t m e e t i n g .

He sat with the investigators and the

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
le g a l t e a m o f t h e C o m m is s i o n to g o t h r o u g h h is r e s p o n s e t o th e
q u e s t io n s t h a t h a d b e e n p o s e d .
I n a n e ffo r t f o r h i m t h e n to b e a b le t o p r o v id e a n a ff id a v i t to
t h e C o m m i s s i o n . T h a t w a s fo ll o w e d w it h a n a ff id a v i t fr o m M r M a n y i fo r
w h ic h w e a r e in d e b t e d . It is q u i t e a c o m p r e h e n s iv e a ff i d a v i t . C e r t a i n ly
in r e l a t i o n t o i ts r e s p o n s e s t o M s W il li a m s .

In r e l a ti o n to th e f u r t h e r

a r e a s o f in q u ir y it i s m u c h b r i e f e r a n d p u r s u a n t to th a t h e w a s e n g a g e d
t o b e a s k e d t o c o m e a n d g iv e e v i d e n c e t o d a y.
T h a t is th e le t t e r I u n d e r s ta n d th a t h e r e f e r s t o . S u b s e q u e n t
10

t o th a t i n d e e d th e r e a r e f u r th e r r e c o r d s i n th e b u n d l e .

He raised

c o n c e r n a s t o w h y h e w a s b e i n g a s k e d to c o m e a n d g iv e o r a l e v i d e n c e
f o r w h a t h e t e r m e d is a p u r e H u m a n R e s o u r c e s / L a b o u r R e la t io n s o f
C C M A m a t t e r.
Yo u w i ll f i n d t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e i n N N 2 f r o m p a g e 1 - 2 - 8 . I n
that correspondence he himself says and I quote:
“ W h a t w o u ld h a v e b e e n o f c o n c e r n t o b o t h m e a n d
t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n my h u m b l e v i e w is i f t h e n e w
in f o r m a ti o n … ”
T h i s is t h e in f o r m a t io n h e h a s r e f e r r e d t o p r e v i o u s ly p u r s u a n t
20

t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n ’s i n v e s t ig a ti o n s .
“ … s o m e h o w c o n tr a d ic ts w h a t I h a d a lr e a d y s t a te d
u n d e r o a t h . N a m e l y t h a t I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d . ”
I n r e s p o n s e t o t h a t in d ic a ti o n t h a t h e d e c li n e d th e i n v i ta t io n
t o a t t e n d . A f u r t h e r l e t te r w a s s e n t t o h i m fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n . T h a t
y o u w ill fi n d a g a i n i n t h e s a m e E X H I B I T N N 2 a t p a g e 1 - 3 - 0 . T h e r e it

Page 120 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
w a s e x p l a i n e d t o M r M a n y i t h a t th e C o m m is s i o n h a d r e c e i v e d a n
a ffi d a v i t d e p o s e d t o b y M i n is te r O l ip h a n t in w h i c h s h e s a y s t h a t a ft e r
s h e w a s a p p o in t e d a s t h e M i n is t e r o f L a b o u r M r M a n y i h a d p h o n e d h e r
a n d i n d ic a t e d to h e r t h a t h e i n t e n d e d t o a p p e a l th e d e c is io n to d is m i s s
h i m o r t o t a k e th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r t o c o u r t o v e r h is d i s m is s a l a n d
s h e f u r th e r s a i d t h a t th e r e w a s a fu r t h e r m e e t in g b e tw e e n t h e tw o o f
t h e m a t w h ic h h e h a d a g a i n i n d ic a te d t h a t h e w a n t e d t o t a k e t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r to c o u r t o v e r M i n i s t e r M d la d l a n a ’s d e c i s i o n t o
d is m i s s h i m .
10

N o w t h a t - a n d t h e n h e w a s a ff o r d e d a c o p y o f t h a t a ffi d a v i t .
N o w t h a t e v i d e n c e m u s t b e r e a d i n c o n t e x t w i th t h e r e s p o n s e t h a t
M r M a n y i p r o v id e d t o t h e q u e s ti o n s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n , b e c a u s e C h a ir
y o u w i ll r e c a ll o n e o f t h e p e r t i n e n t q u e s t i o n s M r M a n y i w a s a s k e d w a s
w e ll w e r e y o u t e r m in a t e d .
I f y o u w e r e y o u r p o s i t io n a s D G w h a t s te p s d i d y o u ta k e ? D id
you appeal?

D id y o u n o t a n d y o u w il l r e c a l l I m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o t h e

le t t e r o f f o r m e r M i n is t e r B a lo y i d a te d 2 9 O c to b e r 2 0 1 0 w h ic h w a s
p r o v i d e d t o M r M a n y i a s t h e b a c k d r o p f o r th o s e q u e s t i o n s .

Now

M r M a n y i ’s r e s p o n s e to a ll o f th a t in h is r e s p o n s e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n
20

w h ic h a g a i n is a t N N 2 a t p a g e 3 8 s a y s t h a t h e r e c e iv e d th e l e t t e r f r o m
M r M d l a d l a n a r e l a ti n g t o h is t e r m i n a t io n fr o m t h e C o m m is s i o n .
H e s a y s t h e f ir s t t i m e h e w a s s e e i n g i t w a s o n F r i d a y
1 8 O c to b e r 2 0 1 9 . H e t h e n in d i c a t e s th a t h e h a d a s k e d t h e C o m m is s i o n
t o o b ta in p r o o f t h a t t h e le t t e r w a s s e n t to h i m a n d h e g o e s o n t o s a y :
“ … b u t I k n o w th e r e i s s u c h p r o o f in e s s e n c e . ”

Page 121 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
B e c a u s e M r M a n y i ’s v e r s io n is h e n e v e r r e c e iv e d t h a t a t a ll .
I t is i n

t h e c o n te x t o f t h a t i n d ic a ti o n t o

th e

Commission

that

M i n is t e r O li p h a n t’s a ffi d a v i t t h e n r a i s e s a s e r io u s m a t t e r f o r fu r t h e r
in v e s t i g a t io n , b e c a u s e M i n is t e r - f o r m e r M in is te r O l ip h a n t ’s a ff id a v i t a s
w e u n d e r s t a n d i t is s a y in g b u t th e r e w e r e e n g a g e m e n t s b e tw e e n m e
a n d M r M a n y i a b o u t a n a p p e a l a g a i n s t th e d e c is i o n t o t e r m i n a te h i m .
S h e a l s o i n d ic a t e s in h e r a ff id a v i t t h a t s h e t o o k s t e p s in
J a n u a r y 2 0 11 t o w i t h d r a w t h a t v e r y t e r m i n a t io n , b u t w h a t a t t h i s p o in t
M r M a n y i h a s t o ld t h e C o m m i s s i o n is t h a t h e n e v e r r e c e iv e d t h e l e t te r
10

t e r m in a ti n g h i m a n d s o t h a t w a s e x p la in e d to M r M a n y i i n t h e
c o r r e s p o n d e n c e t h a t I r e fe r r e d t o a t p a g e 1 3 0 a n d i t w a s i n d ic a te d to
h i m t h a t t h e r e c e r t a i n l y w a s a c o n tr a d ic t io n t h e n b e t w e e n w h a t
M s O l ip h a n t h a d s a i d a n d w h a t M r M a n y i h a d s a id t o t h e C o m m i s s io n
a n d i t w a s o ff t h e b a c k o f t h a t a n d t h e o t h e r m a t t e r s th a t r e q u i r e
in v e s t i g a t io n

that

th e

summons

s u c c e s s fu ll y s e r v e d o n

the

was

is s u e d

and

I

Johannesburg residence

u n d e r s ta n d
of Mr Manyi

yesterday evening.
N o n e th e le s s

I

understand

Mr Manyi

r e c e iv e d

that

c o r r e s p o n d e n c e . I n d i c a t e d th a t h e w o u l d c o m e u p to b e p r e s e n t t o d a y
20

a n d s o tr a v e l a r r a n g e m e n t s w e r e m a d e f o r th a t p u r p o s e .

C h a ir i t i s

a g a in s t th a t b a c k d r o p o f th e f a c t s th a t i t w i ll b e o u r s u b m is s i o n b e f o r e
y o u to d a y t h a t t h e r e h a s b e e n n o a m b u s h o f Mr M a n y i . M r M a n y i a ls o I
s h o u l d r e c o r d r e q u e s t e d a c o p y o f t h e b u n d l e o f h i s a ff id a v i t.
T h a t w a s p r o v i d e d t o h i m i n i ts p a g i n a t e d f o r m . I t h in k e i t h e r
Fr id a y o r M o n d a y t h is w e e k .

M r M a n y i c a n c o n fir m t h a t .

Page 122 of 179

What was

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
a ls o m a d e c l e a r t o M r M a n y i i n th a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e is th a t th e r e w e r e
f u r th e r d o c u m e n t s t h a t w e r e b e in g s o u g h t a n d o b t a i n e d b y t h e
C o m m i s s i o n . T h a t t h o s e h a d n o t y e t b e e n c o m p le t e d .
T h a t e ff o r ts w e r e a fo o t to d o s o a s e x p e d i ti o u s l y a s p o s s i b l e ,
b u t i t - h e w a s i n d ic a t e d t h a t i f t h e r e is a n y d o c u m e n t i n th e c o u r s e o f
t h e p r o c e e d i n g s t o d a y th a t h e i s - h is a t t e n ti o n i s d r a w n t o t h a t h e h a s
n o t s e e n r e c e n t ly, d o e s n o t r e m e m b e r, w a n ts ti m e c o n s i d e r i t w o u l d b e
t h e p o s i t io n o f t h e le g a l t e a m t h a t h e s h o u l d b e a ff o r d e d t h a t ti m e .
E v e n w i th t h e p o s s i b ili t y o f a s h o r t a d jo u r n m e n t if t h a t w a s
10

n e c e s s a r y. A ll o f t h a t w a s m a d e c l e a r t o M r M a n y i i n c o r r e s p o n d e n c e .
T h e f i n a l p o i n t o n t h i s C h a ir ju s t t o c o n c l u d e is t h a t I m e n ti o n th is - th is
m o r n in g

th a t

th e r e

was

s ti ll

an

a ffi d a v i t

fr o m

DPSA that

was

outstanding.
W e s u c c e s s f u l ly d i d r e c e iv e i t in t h e c o u r s e o f t h e m o r n i n g
a n d i t w a s f o r t h a t r e a s o n t h a t I - a s M r M a n y i h a s c o r r e c t ly p o i n t e d o u t
- a p p r o a c h e d h i m o v e r t h e c o u r s e o f th e l u n c h b r e a k w h e n i t h a d b e e n
a d d e d to th e f il e s a n d p a g in a t e d to a ff o r d h i m a n o p p o r t u n i ty to
c o n s i d e r t h o s e d o c u m e n t s . I t is a g a in s t t h a t b a c k d r o p C h a ir t h a t i t i s
o u r s u b m is s i o n t o y o u t o d a y t h a t w e c o n t in u e w i t h M r M a n y i ’s e v i d e n c e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Mr M a n y i w o u l d y o u li k e t o r e p l y ?
MR MANYI:

Ye s C h a ir.

A c o u p le o f t h i n g s .

F ir s tl y - fi r s tl y it is

i m p o r t a n t th a t w e - w e a r e v e r y c l e a r a b o u t t h e c o n tr a d ic ti o n b e t w e e n
a n d w h a t I - t h e c o n tr a d ic t io n b e tw e e n w h a t I h a v e s a i d a b o u t m y
s u s p e n s i o n v e r s u s d i s m is s a l t h a t s e e m s t o b e w h a t A d v o c a t e H o ff m a n
( s ic ) is s a y in g t h a t - a n d w e c a n d e a l w i t h th a t a t th e r i g h t t i m e b u t th e

Page 123 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
is s u e o f m e C h a ir is t h a t th a t d is c u s s io n w h ic h e v e r w a y it g o e s it is s ti ll
a n H R m a tt e r.
I t is s ti ll a n L R A m a tt e r. I a m s t il l tr y i n g t o u n d e r s t a n d w h y is
it i n th is C o m m is s i o n th a t m a t te r, b e c a u s e it is a H u m a n R e s o u r c e s
m a t t e r a n d a ll t h a t a n d i n a n y e v e n t t h e f u ll n e s s o f th a t t h i n g is t h a t
w h a t - w h e t h e r it w a s s u s p e n s io n w h e t h e r i t w a s d i s mi s s a l i t w a s
rescinded.
S o w h a t is t h e m a te r i a l i ty o f d is c u s s i n g s o m e t h i n g th a t w a s
a c t u a ll y r e s c in d e d ?
10

thing.

W h ic h e v e r w a y it w a s i t w a s r e s c i n d e d .

S o w h a t i s i t t h a t w e - w e a r e d e a l in g w i t h .

That

Ar e w e g o in g t o

o p e n t h a t L R A m a tt e r t h r o u g h b a c k d o o r o r w h a t a r e w e d o i n g a n d th e
is s u e a l s o t h e n C h a i r in t e r m s o f f a ir n e s s t h a t I a m - I a m d e a l in g w i th
here.
I t h e n a s k fo r th e - f o r t h e b u n d le a n d - a n d a d v o c a t e h e r e
w h e n s h e s a y s th e b u n d l e w a s g iv e n a n i m p r e s s i o n w il l b e c r e a te d th a t
I h a v e a ll t h e in f o r m a t io n w h i c h is n o t t r u e .

When I asked for the

b u n d l e I w a n te d a ll t h e in f o r m a t io n t h a t I n e e d t o c o n s i d e r to c o m e
h e r e . Al l th e y g a v e m e f o r t h e b u n d l e i s w h a t I g a v e t o t h e m .
I t is m y a ffi d a v i t w h ic h I k n o w b a c k w a r d s . I t is t h e - i t is t h e 20

w h a t d o y o u c a ll i t ?

Th e a n n e x u r e s w h i c h I g a v e t o t h e m .

Th e y j u s t

p l a y e d th o s e b a c k to m e a n d t h e n a ls o j u s t t h e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e g o i n g
b a c k w a r d s a n d f o r w a r d s , b u t th e r e s t o f t h e o th e r th i n g s w e r e n o t p a r t
o f t h i s b u n d l e . F o r i n s t a n c e t h e y s a y a n y o th e r m a t t e r.
W h a t - i n th e s u b p o e n a it s a y s a n y o t h e r m a tt e r.

I do not

k n o w w h a t a n y o t h e r m a t te r i s . N o w i f i n t h e a b s e n c e i n t h e b u n d le - i n

Page 124 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t h e a b s e n c e o f a n y t h in g r e l a t i n g t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r i n t h e
bundle.

I a m n o t e v e n s u r e w h e t h e r th e r e s p o n s e s I g a v e e a r li e r o n

w e r e e n o u g h t o s to p t h e m a t t e r o r n o t.
S o in t h e a b s e n c e o f th e m t h e r e I t h i n k o k a y m a y b e th e n th e y
h a v e b e e n d e a l t w i th .

S o - s o th is i s w h y C h a ir I a m s i t ti n g h e r e .

T h e r e a r e t h r e e a r e a s th a t t h e - th e r e a r e th r e e a r e a s t h a t a s u b p o e n a
is - i s r e fl e c t in g o n .

T h e s u b p o e n a ta lk s a b o u t my t e n u r e .

It is not

e v e n s p e c i fic . N o w th e s u b p o e n a is b r o a d . T h is is m y p r o b l e m C h a ir.
T h e s u b p o e n a is b r o a d a n d I h a v e - i t i s a le g a l d o c u m e n t . I
10

h a v e g o t t o c o n s i d e r w h a t t h e s u b p o e n a s a y s . Th e s u b p o e n a w a n ts t o
t a lk t o m e a b o u t my t e n u r e a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r.
b r o a d e r th a n w h a t a d v o c a t e is s a y i n g .

That is far

T h e s u b p o e n a t a l k s a b o u t my

t e n u r e a t t h e G C I S . T h a t is fa r b r o a d e r t h e n w h a te v e r s h e c o u l d h a v e
s a i d n o w.
O v e r a n d a b o v e th a t i t s a y s a n y o t h e r m a t t e r. N o w C h a ir t h a t
c a n n o t b e f a ir. I c a n n o t c o m e h e r e a n d p r e te n d to b e a s p o k e s p e r s o n
o f G C I S a n d s p e a k i n m y t e n u r e t h a t I d o n o t e v e n h a v e t h e m a n d a te o f
GCIS.

I d o n o t e v e n h a v e t h e m a n d a t e o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r.

How can I come here and then come and then come and talk about my
20

tenure when I was there.
I f t h e r e a r e s p e c i fic q u e s ti o n s t h a t r e l a te t o m e . I t is n o t lik e
C h a ir p e r s o n w h e n I w a s t h e r e I w a s a c o n s u l ta n t t h a t w a s j u s t d o i n g
w o r k . T h e r e f o r e c o m e a n d e x p la in w h a t y o u d i d th e r e . I w a s a f u l l ti m e
e m p l o y e e a n d I w a s e x e c u t in g G o v e r n m e n t m a n d a te .
w a n ts t o k n o w w h a t h a p p e n e d t h e r e , th e y m u s t a s k G C I S .

Page 125 of 179

So if anybody

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
T h e y m u s t a s k L a b o u r, b u t i f t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g p e r s o n a ll y
d e a li n g w i t h m e th e n I m u s t b e c o n fr o n te d u p fr o n t a n d b e a s k e d
q u e s t io n s .

I m e a n t h e r e a r e o t h e r q u e s ti o n s t h a t t h e y h a d a s k e d m e

e a r l ie r th a t s h e is r e fe r r i n g to .

I r e s p o n d e d t o t h o s e q u e s t io n s .

If

m a y b e i t i s a f o l lo w u p t o t h o s e q u e s ti o n s .
W h y I a m I n o t g e t ti n g t o l d t h a t y o u r a n s w e r h e r e w a s
in a d e q u a t e o r w h a t e v e r. Yo u k n o w. S o I c o m e h e r e . I a m d r a w i n g a
b l a n k a s t o w h ic h w a y t h in g s a r e g o i n g t o c o m e a n d a ll o f th a t . I d o n o t
t h i n k t h a t is f a ir C h a ir. I t h i n k t h e - t h e s u m m o n s o r t h e s u b p o e n a m u s t
10

h a v e a fu ll p a r tic u l a r s .
S o t h a t a p e r s o n k n o w s w h a t a p e r s o n i s i n f o r a n d f in a l ly
C h a ir I s a y t h i s b e c a u s e i t is m y o p i n i o n th a t p e o p l e t h a t s i t o n t h is
c h a ir a r e n o t t r e a t e d t h e s a m e . T h e r e a r e th o s e w h o - w h o s e e v i d e n c e
is p r o p e r l y l e d a n d t h e y a r e e v e n r e m i n d e d a b o u t t h i n g s t h a t t h e y n e e d
t o s a y i n t h e ir o w n a ffi d a v it s .
T h e r e a r e p e o p l e th a t a r e t r e a t e d n ic e ly li k e t h a t h e r e . T h e r e
a r e s o m e o f u s w h o c o m e h e r e t o b e c r u c if ie d a n d a l l t h a t a n d w e a r e
r e a d y to d e a l w i th i t , b u t t h e o n l y th i n g w e a s k i n g f o r is f a ir n e s s . W e
m u s t b e g i v e n p r o p e r d o c u m e n t a t i o n s o t h a t th e p e r s o n c a n p r e p a r e

20

and make a proper submission.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u M r M a n y i . C e r ta i n ly fr o m m y s i d e I w o u l d
lik e t o tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t e v e r y b o d y is t r e a t e d f a ir l y.
w i t n e s s e s a r e tr e a t e d f a ir ly.

All the

E v e n if it i s a n i m p l ic a t e d p e r s o n w h e n

t h e y g iv e e v id e n c e . T h e y m u s t b e tr e a te d f a ir ly, b u t I a c c e p t t h a t t h e r e
m a y b e c a s e s w h e r e I t h i n k s o m e b o d y is b e i n g tr e a te d f a ir ly a n d t h e y

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
h a v e a d i ff e r e n t v ie w a n d th a t i s - t h a t is n o r m a l.
I a c c e p t t h a t th e r e m a y b e o t h e r p e o p l e w h o m a y ta k e a
d i ff e r e n t v ie w a b o u t w h e t h e r w e a r e b e i n g f a i r o r n o t a n d w e a c c e p t
t h a t t h e y a r e e n ti t le d t o ta k e a v i e w o n h o w w e d e a l w i t h t h i n g s , b u t w e
w i ll c o n t i n u e to d o t h e b e s t t h a t w e c a n . W e d o n o t g u a r a n te e th a t w e
w i ll s a t is fy e v e r y b o d y, b u t c e r t a i n l y fr o m m y p o i n t a s C h a ir p e r s o n I
w a n t u s to c o n t in u e - a ll o f u s i n c lu d in g t h e le g a l t e a m - t o c o n t i n u e t o
d o t h e b e s t w e c a n t o tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t th e r e a r e n o c o m p la i n t s o f
unfairness.
A s I h a v e s a i d b e f o r e th e r e w i ll b e t i m e s w h e n s o m e b o d y

10

t h i n k s t h e y a r e t r e a t e d u n fa ir l y a n d I ta k e a d i ff e r e n t v i e w a n d I m a k e a
r u l i n g a n d I m a k e a r u l in g i n a c c o r d a n c e w it h m y o w n ju d g m e n t o f w h a t
is f a ir a n d w h a t i s n o t f a ir, b u t w e w i ll a l w a y s t r y a n d d o th e b e s t w e
can.
C e r t a in ly fr o m m y s i d e to m a k e s u r e t h a t th e r e a r e n o
c o n c e r n s o f u n fa ir n e s s a n d w h e r e t h e r e a r e c o n c e r n s t o tr y a n d s e e
h o w t h e y c a n b e m e t t o tr y a n d m a k e s u r e t h a t e v e r y b o d y f e e ls t h a t
t h e y a r e tr e a t e d f a ir ly, b u t I t h i n k M s H o f m e y r th e p o i n t t h a t y o u d id n o t
a d d r e s s i n y o u r r e s p o n s e is t h e o n e a b o u t t h e - th e s c o p e o f w h a t
20

M r M a n y i i s t o b e a s k e d a b o u t to d a y.
that.ADV HOFM EYR:

C e r t a i n l y C h a ir.

So I think you must address
I w o u ld lik e t o p ic k t h a t u p in

r e l a ti o n t o a p o i n t M r M a n y i m a d e i n h i s r e p ly a m o m e n t a g o w h ic h i s
t h a t th e r e - t h e r e w a s n o t c l a r i ty fo r h i m a s to w h e r e t h e c o n tr a d ic t io n
b e t w e e n Ms O li p h a n t ’s a ff i d a v i t a n d h i s r e s p o n s e s t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n
la y a n d I w o u ld l ik e fo r th a t p u r p o s e - b e c a u s e i t is t h e b a c k d r o p t o t h e

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e n g a g e m e n ts a n d t h e s u b s e q u e n t s u m m o n s ju s t t o d r a w t h a t t o y o u r
a n d M r M a n y i ’s a tt e n ti o n .
T h a t a g a i n is i n E X H I B I T N N 2 a t p a g e 1 3 0 .

There the

C o m m i s s i o n t h r o u g h t h e S e c r e t a r i a t m a d e i t c le a r to M r M a n y i i n
r e s p o n s e t o h is c o n c e r n t h a t t h is w a s a m e r e L a b o u r m a t te r a n d d i d n o t
m e r i t h i s g iv i n g o r a l e v i d e n c e , b u t h is a c c e p ta n c e t h a t i f t h e r e w a s a
c o n tr a d ic ti o n b e t w e e n h is v e r s i o n s a n d t h o s e o f o t h e r s t h a t w o u ld
w a r r a n t th e a tt e n ti o n o f th e C o m m i s s io n .
W h a t h a p p e n s a t p a g e 1 3 0 i n th e c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w i t h Mr M a n y i is
10

t h o s e a s p e c ts o f Ms O l i p h a n t’s a ffi d a v i t a r e h i g h li g h te d a n d th e n t h e
f o ll o w i n g is s a id , M s O l ip h a n t ’s – I s e e i t s a y s e m a il b u t i t s h o u l d s a y
a ffi d a v i t , d ir e c tly c o n tr a d ic ts y o u r r e s p o n s e t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n th a t y o u
h a d n o k n o w l e d g e o f M in is t e r M d l a d l a n a ’s d e c i s i o n t o t e r m i n a t e y o u r
a p p o i n t m e n t a s D i r e c t o r G e n e r a l o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r, s o i t is
m y s u b m i s s io n th a t th e r e c o u l d b e n o d o u b t in M r M a n y i’s m in d w h a t
p r e c i s e ly h a d b e e n i d e n ti f ie d a s th e c o n t r a d ic t io n .
T h a t o c c u r r e d , t h a t c o r r e s p o n d e n c e w a s s e n t to M r M a n y i l a s t
Fr id a y a n d i t w a s in a d d i t io n t o i t w a s a c o p y o f t h e s u m m o n s th a t w a s
b e i n g s e r v e d o n h i m , s o h e r e c e i v e d a c o p y l a s t Fr i d a y, a n d l e t m e j u s t

20

g iv e t h e a c t u a l l a n g u a g e o f th e s u m m o n s to y o u C h a ir, i f I m a y, h e ’s
a s k e d to a t te n d to d a y f o r th e p u r p o s e s o f e v i d e n c e a n d b e i n g
q u e s t io n e d a b o u t th e fo ll o w i n g m a tt e r s b e i n g in v e s ti g a t e d ,
“ m a t t e r s r e l a ti n g t o th e p e r i o d o f Mr M a n y i ’s t e n u r e a s
D ir e c t o r G e n e r a l i n th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r a n d i n th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a t i o n a n d I n f o r m a t io n S y s t e m s a n d

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a n y o t h e r m a t t e r s a r is in g w h ic h a r e w i t h i n th e C o m m i s s i o n ’s
mandate

to

i n v e s ti g a te

a l le g a ti o n s

of

State

Capture,

c o r r u p ti o n a n d fr a u d in t h e p u b li c s e c to r ” ,
C h a ir i t is n o t th e c a s e t h a t it is a n y m a t t e r a r is in g i t ’s a
m a t t e r th a t f a l ls s q u a r e ly w i t h i n t h e m a n d a t e o f t h e C o m m i s s io n a n d i t ’s
m y s u b m i s s i o n t h a t t h e s u m m o n s m a k e s it c le a r th a t th e m a t te r s w h i c h
h e w i ll b e q u e s t i o n e d o n r e la t e to h is p e r i o d a s D G o f L a b o u r a n d C h a ir
w h a t w il l b e c o m e c l e a r in th e c o u r s e o f t h e e v id e n c e is t h a t i t w i ll s p a n
t h a t p e r i o d b e c a u s e i t w il l s ta r t w it h h is a p p o i n t m e n t , i t w i ll m o v e t o h is
10

s u s p e n s i o n , i t w ill m o v e t o t h e m a tt e r s t h a t h e ’s a lr e a d y b e e n a l e r te d
to,

th e

Commission

w a n ts

to

i n v e s t ig a te

further

w h ic h

is

his

s u s p e n s i o n t h e p r o c e s s o f t h e d is c ip li n a r y c o m m i t t e e , w h a t w a s i ts
c o n c l u s i o n , w h a t s t e p s h e t o o k a ft e r a n d t h e i t is h i s a r r i v a l a t G C I S
a n d r e l a te d – a n d t h e p e r i o d t h e r e .

C h a ir t h a t h a s b e e n c l e a r l y

id e n t i fi e d t o M r M a n y i b e c a u s e h e w a s g i v e n th e a ffi d a v i t o f M s
W il li a m s , h e w a s a s k e d t o c o m m e n t o n it .

M s W il li a m s ’ a ff i d a v i t

tr a v e r s e s t h e p e r i o d o f ti m e t h a t h e h e l d t h e p o s i ti o n o f D G o f t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f C o m m u n ic a ti o n s a n d I n fo r m a t io n S e r v ic e s .

S o i t ’s to

s p a n t h e p e r i o d d u r i n g w h ic h th e q u e s ti o n s w i ll r e l a te t o a n d i t ’s m y
20

s u b m is s io n , c o m e s o ff t h e b a c k o f th e r e p e a te d e n g a g e m e n ts a n d
c la r i ty t h a t w a s g iv e n t o Mr M a n y i a s t o t h e p a r ti c u l a r f o c u s .
T h e l a s t p o i n t I w is h t o m a k e in t h is r e g a r d i s M r M a n y i w a s
a w a r e o f t h e s c o p e o f t h e s u m m o n s a s o f F r i d a y la s t w e e k . T h e r e h a s
b e e n n o in d ic a ti o n fr o m h i m s i n c e t h e n t h a t t h e r e ’s a n y l a c k o f c l a r i ty
o n h i s p a r t a s to w h a t w o u l d b e tr a v e r s e d t o d a y w i th h i m in e v id e n c e .

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I t i s a l s o t h e c a s e , i t i s o u r s u b m is s io n t h a t i t is n o t a p p r o p r ia t e f o r M r
M a n y i , a t t h is s t a g e o f th e p r o c e e d i n g s t o o b j e c t in g t o g iv in g e v i d e n c e
a t a l l . T h e – M r M a n y i is h e r e u n d e r s u m m o n s to d a y t o g iv e e v id e n c e ,
if t h e r e is a n y q u e s t i o n t h a t i s p u t t o h i m a t a p o i n t i n t h e c o u r s e o f
t h e s e p r o c e e d i n g s in r e s p e c t o f w h ic h h e h a s a n o b j e c ti o n , b e c a u s e i t
li e s o u ts i d e t h e s c o p e o f t h e s u m m o n s o r b e c a u s e h e n e e d s m o r e t i m e
t o c o n s i d e r w e c a n d e a l w i th i t a s t h e e v i d e n c e u n fo l d s i n t h e c o u r s e o f
t h e a f te r n o o n . S o t h o s e a r e o u r s u b m is s i o n s , b o t h o n t h e s c o p e o f th e
s u m m o n s , w h a t p r e c e d e d i t a n d w h a t th e a p p r o a c h s h o u ld b e g o i n g
10

f o r w a r d i n o u r s u b m is s i o n .
CHAIRPERSON:

J u s t d e a l w i t h t h e q u e s t io n t h a t h e h a s a r t ic u l a t e d

t w o ti m e s , m a i n ly t h i s i s a H R /L R C C M A m a tt e r, w h a t d o e s i t h a v e t o d o
w i t h t h e C o m m i s s i o n in t e r m s o f r e fe r e n c e o f t h e C o m m is s i o n , I t h in k
ju s t d e a l w i th t h a t a s w e ll .
ADV HOFMEYR:

O f c o u r s e b u t C h a ir i t i s o u r s u b m i s s i o n t h a t t h i s is

n o t a H R o r m e r e ly a H R , L a b o u r R e l a ti o n s o r C C M A m a t t e r a n d I m a k e
t h a t s u b m is s i o n f o r t w o r e a s o n s . T h e fir s t is t h a t a n y e v i d e n c e th a t is
g iv e n t o th is C o m m i s s io n i n i ts c o u r s e o f i ts p r o c e e d i n g s th a t m a y b e
f a ls e is o f g r a v e c o n c e r n to t h i s C o m m i s s io n a n d M r M a n y i t e s t i fi e d i n
20

November of last year about his tenure at the Department of Labour
a b o u t t h e c ir c u m s ta n c e s i n w h ic h h e w a s d is c i p li n e d t h e r e a n d a b o u t
h is m o v e fr o m t h e r e to G C I S . I t i s t h e in t e n t io n to d a y i n t h e c o u r s e o f
t h e q u e s ti o n s t o p r o b e th a t e v id e n c e w i t h M r M a n y i b e c a u s e i f t h a t
e v i d e n c e i s f a ls e t h a t s h o u ld i m m e d i a te ly b e b r o u g h t t o t h e a tt e n ti o n o f
t h is C o m m i s s io n a n d t h o s e m a t te r s r e la t e to t h e s u b j e c t m a t t e r o f

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Human Resources, CCMA proceedings but if what Mr Manyi said about
t h o s e p r o c e e d in g s i n h is l a s t e v id e n c e b e f o r e t h i s C o m m i s s io n a r e n o t
c o r r e c t , it is m y s u b m is s i o n t h a t i t is o u r d u ty, fir s t a s t h e l e g a l t e a m o f
t h is C o m m is s i o n t o p la c e t h a t b e f o r e y o u a n d f u r t h e r m o r e t o p r o b e i t .
W e a r e r e q u ir e d u n d e r t h e r u l e s t o a s k a n y q u e s t i o n s t h a t w il l a s s is t
t h e C o m m is s i o n in e s t a b l is h i n g t h e tr u t h a b o u t th e m a t te r s b e f o r e i t .
T h e s e c o n d s i g n i f ic a n c e C h a ir, is t h e f o l lo w i n g . I n t h e g r e a t e r
m a n d a t e o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n p r e c is e l y w h a t h a p p e n e d p r i o r t o Mr M a n y i
b e i n g a p p o in t e d a s t h e D G , w e ll tr a n s fe r r e d t o t h e p o s it i o n o f D G a t
10

G C I S is m a t e r ia ll y i m p o r t a n t . I ’v e tr a n s v e r s e d i t in t h e e v i d e n c e th is
m o r n in g o f M r M a s e k o . I t h a p p e n e d i n t h e s p a c e o f a w e e k , a s e r ie s o f
e v e n t s t o o k p l a c e b e t w e e n t h e 2 5 t h o f J a n u a r y 2 0 1 0 – s o r r y 2 0 11 a n d
t h e 2 n d o f F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 . I t i n v o l v e d , a m o n g s t o t h e r t h i n g s , r e m o v i n g
M r M a s e k o fr o m h is p o s i ti o n a t G C I S w h e r e t h e r e h a d b e e n n o p r i o r
in d i c a t io n o f d is s a t is f a c ti o n o f h is p o s i ti o n . I t in v o lv e d o n t h e M o n d a y
o f t h e v e r y s a m e w e e k , t h a t M r M a n y i w a s tr a n s fe r r e d t o G C I S , th e
w i t h d r a w a l o f t h e te r m in a ti o n o f M r M a n y i’s e m p lo y m e n t i n th e p u b l ic
s e c t o r.

Pr e c is e l y h o w th o s e e v e n t s u n f o l d e d a g a in s t t h e b a c k d r o p o f

M r M a s e k o ’s e v i d e n c e t h a t t h e y w e r e a c o n s e q u e n c e o f h i m b e i n g
20

u n w il li n g to e n g a g e i n t h e i n s tr u c t io n t h a t M r G u p ta h a d g iv e n h i m to
d ir e c t a d v e r t is in g s p e n d to T N A w e s u b m i t is s q u a r e ly w i t h i n t h e S t a t e
C a p t u r e m a n d a t e o f t h is C o m m i s s i o n , m e r it s f u r th e r p r o b i n g a n d i t f o r
t h a t r e a s o n th a t w e s u b m i t t h i s i s n o t a m e r e H R /C C M A m a t t e r.

I t ’s

about what decisions were taken and by whom over the period of a
w e e k to e n s u r e th a t M r M a s e k o le f t G C I S a n d Mr M a n y i to o k h is p l a c e ,

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t h a n k y o u C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

M r M a n y i y o u h a v e n ’ t h a d a c h a n c e to d e a l w i t h t h e

r e a s o n s y o u ’v e b e e n g iv e n b y M s H o f m e y r a s t o w h y th is m a t t e r is
r e l e v a n t to t h e b u s in e s s o f t h e C o m m i s s i o n , s o I t h i n k I s h o u ld l e t y o u
d e a l w it h t h a t .
M R M A N Y I:

J a t h a n k y o u C h a ir. F ir s t ly, I th i n k I m u s t d e a l w i th h o w

M s H o f m e y r is d is h o n e s tl y i n te r p r e ti n g w h a t I h a d w r i tt e n o n t h e m e m o
w r i t t e n t o t h e C o m m i s s i o n o n p a g e 1 2 8 o n t h e 3 1 s t o f O c t o b e r, i t ’s p o i n t
f o u r o n t h a t m e m o w h e r e I s a y,
10

“ W h a t w o u l d h a v e b e e n o f c o n c e r n t o b o t h m e a n d th e
C o m m i s s i o n , i n m y h u m b le v i e w is i f t h e n e w i n f o r m a t io n
s o m e h o w c o n tr a d ic ts w h a t I h a d a lr e a d y s t a te d u n d e r o a t h ” ,
A n d t h e n I s a y n a m e l y, s o I d o n ’t l e a v e i t b r o a d , I s p e c i fi c a lly
s a y w h a t i s i t th a t I’ m d e a li n g w i th ,
“ S t a t e d u n d e r o a t h , n a m e ly t h a t I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d . Th e n I s a y,
if a n y th in g y o u r o w n in v e s t i g a t io n t h a t h a s b r o u g h t u p t h e
former

M in is t e r

O l ip h a n t ’s

name

a c t u a l ly

c o n f ir m e d

that

M i n is t e r C h a b a n e d e p a r t e d fr o m a l e g it i m a t e p l a t fo r m t o
e ffe c t m y tr a n s fe r ” .
20

S o t h is is t h e p o i n t C h a ir, n o w s h e t a k e s t h e fa c t th a t I s p o k e
a b o u t t h e c o n tr a d i c ti o n s a n d th e n ju s t u s e s i t a s s h e p l e a s e s , i t ’s n o t
r ig h t a n d t h a t w a s – I n e v e r – s h e t a k e s t h a t t o h e r o w n e x p e d ie n c y
w h e r e a s I w a s q u i te s p e c i f ic t h a t th e is s u e f o r m e a b o u t t h e a li g n m e n t
b e t w e e n w h a t I ’ m s a y i n g a n d w h a t Ms O l i p h a n t is s a y i n g i s p u r e l y o n
t h e t r a n s f e r, i t w a s o n t h e n a r r o w is s u e o f th e tr a n s f e r. I s a i d I w a s

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
tr a n s fe r r e d u p to a s w e s p e a k r i g h t n o w t h e r e i s n o e v i d e n c e t o s u g g e s t
o th e r w i s e .

I w a s tr a n s f e r r e d , e v e n M s O li p h a n t in h e r o w n a ffi d a v it ,

s h e s a y s I w a s tr a n s fe r r e d a n d s o o n . S h e e x p l a i n s h o w t h a t tr a n s fe r
h a p p e n s a n d a l l th a t .

S o t h a t’s t h e c o n tr a d ic t io n t h a t I w a s t a l k i n g

a b o u t t h a t t h e r e ’s n o c o n tr a d ic t io n , i n fa c t , t h e y h a v e f o u n d e v i d e n c e if
m a y b e – I m e a n a t th is p o in t a ll w e h a d w a s a le t t e r fr o m M i n i s te r
C h a b a n e t h a t w a s t a l k i n g a b o u t a t r a n s f e r w h ic h in f a c t , o n e o f t h e
q u e s t io n s , w h e n I w a s a s k e d w h y I s a y I w a s tr a n s fe r r e d a n d I t o o k
a c t u a l e x c e p ti o n t o t h is . I s a id t o t h e s e c r e t a r i a t h e r e th a t t h i s l e t te r
10

w a s g iv e n to y o u , t h e w o r d tr a n s fe r a p p e a r f o u r ti m e s i n t h is l e tt e r b u t
y o u ’r e s t ill a s k i n g m e w h y a m I s a y i n g I w a s t r a n s f e r r e d a n d y e t I’ v e
got a letter that says I was transferred and the word transfer appears
f o u r t i m e s , w h a t d o y o u w a n t m e t o s a y, a n d t h e n n o w t h e y b r i n g u p
n e w e v id e n c e o f M s O li p h a n t a n d M s O li p h a n t a g a i n , s a y s r e i n s ta t e d
a n d w h a t h a v e y o u a n d th e n s h e t h e n s a y s i n h e r l e t t e r, s h e s a y s , s h e
d e c i d e d t h a t t h e o p t io n s h e w a s g iv e – s h e w a s g iv e n t w o o p t io n s b y
M i n is t e r B a lo y i a p p a r e n t ly, s h e s a y s i n h e r a ffi d a v i t . S h e s a y s e i t h e r I
b e r e i n s t a te d i n t o t h e D e p a r t m e n t o r I g e t tr a n s f e r r e d . S h e m a k e s t h e
e l e c ti o n h e r s e l f , s h e s a y s I d e c i d e d t o tr a n s fe r, in f a c t s h e m e n ti o n s

20

t w o r e a s o n s f o r h e r d e c is io n s h e s a y s , A ) b e c a u s e s h e u n d e r s t a n d s m e
t o h a v e b e e n d is m i s s e d t h e r e s o s h e d id n ’ t w a n t m e in t h e d e p a r t m e n t ,
t h a t ’s w h a t s h e s a y s .
S h e s a y s B) s h e a ls o w a n t e d p e a c e a n d s t a b il it y b e c a u s e a ls o
s h e h a d r e c e iv e d a m e m o fr o m N U M S A – n o t N U M S A s o r r y fr o m
N E H AW U th a t w a s c a ll in g f o r h e r f o r m y r e i n s t a te m e n t . S o I t h i n k s h e

Page 133 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
ju s t f o r e s a w s o m e p a r t th a t I m a k e o f s o r ts a n d s h e d e c i d e d t h a t it ’s
best that I get transferred.

S o t h is i s w h y, fo r m e , I th i n k t h e

i m p o r t a ti o n o f c o r r u p t io n a n d c a p t u r e b y A d v o c a t e i s to t a l ly m i s p la c e d
t h is w a s a d e c is i o n b y M i n i s te r O l ip h a n t , s h e h a d a c h o ic e o f k e e p i n g
m e in t h e d e p a r t m e n t o r n o t k e e p in g m e .

S h e m a d e t h e e l e c ti o n o f

tr a n s fe r r i n g m e a n d a ll th a t a n d a g a in , I t h e n s a y a s w e l l, p e o p l e t h a t
w e r e m a k i n g a ll th e s e d e c is io n s i s n o t e v e n m e , i t ’s p e o p le o u ts i d e m e
t h a t w e r e m a k in g th e s e d e c is io n s , w h y a m I t h e p e r s o n t h a t i s
r e s p o n d i n g t o d e c i s i o n s a n d a ll k i n d s o f t h i n g s t h a t w e r e d o n e th a t
10

i m p a c te d o n m e a n d i t w a s n o t m y – I w a s n o t e x e r c is i n g a n y p o w e r, I
w a s a p a w n i n t h e p r o c e s s . W h y y o u c a l li n g a p a w n , w h y d o n ’ t y o u g o
t o th e p e o p l e t h a t w e r e p l a y i n g t h e c h e s s a n d a s k t h e m w h y d i d th e y
m o v e t h is p a w n fr o m h e r e t o h e r e a n d I i n s is t, C h a ir, t h a t - I m e a n e v e n
if y o u lo o k a t th e g e n e s is o f th is m a t te r, t h e p e r s o n t h a t s ta r te d t h i s
m a t t e r is M i n is t e r M d la d l a n a b y s u s p e n d i n g m e . S o th is i s w h e r e t h e
g e n e s is o f th is m a t t e r c o m e s a n d e n d s u p w h e r e i t h a s e n d e d u p a n d t o
t h e n , a ll o f a s u d d e n t r y to f in d S t a t e C a p t u r e o n t h i s m a tt e r t h e n i t
m e a n s t h e n y o u m u s t fir s t c a l l M r M d la d l a n a t o e x p l a in w h a t w a s h is
o r i g in a l m o t iv e f o r s u s p e n d in g m e a n d I k n o w t h a t a n d I c a n a s s u r e y o u

20

it ’s g o t n o th i n g t o d o w i t h – w e l l i f th e r e ’s a n y th in g t o d o w i t h S t a t e
C a p t u r e , I ’d lik e to s e e th e e v i d e n c e o f th i s b u t a s f a r a s I ’ m c o n c e r n e d
t h is m a t t e r is a p u r e H R m a t t e r, i n f a c t y o u c a n e v e n l o o k a t t h e
r e c o m m e n d a ti o n s .
T h e r e c o m m e n d a ti o n o f M r M d l a d l a n a i n th e le t t e r th a t M s
Hofmeyr

e r r o n e o u s ly

c a ll s

a

te r m in a ti o n

Page 134 of 179

le t t e r, i t’s

not even

a

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t e r m in a ti o n le t t e r t h a t le t t e r m u s t b e r e a d fo r th e r e c o r d C h a ir.

Th a t

le t t e r i s a p r o b a ti o n l e tt e r o f s o r t s , w e c a n d e a l w i t h th a t b u t i t’s
a c t u a ll y f a c t u a ll y i n c o r r e c t t o c a l l t h a t l e t t e r a te r m in a ti o n l e tt e r.

So

it ’s a n o t h e r d is c u s s i o n b u t a t t h e e n d h e r e c o m m e n d s t h a t i f I ’ m n o t
h a p p y w i th h is d e c is io n I m u s t g o t o P C S B C t h e B a r g a in i n g C o u n c i l .
M i n is t e r O li p h a n t , a f te r o u r d is c u s s i o n , s h e h a d r e c o m m e n d e d t h a t I g o
t o D P S A a n d a ll t h a t , c le a r ly t h e s e a r e a l l l a b o u r r e l a t e d i s s u e s a n d a ll
t h a t . S o a s t o w h y A d v o c a t e H o f m e y r i s s e e i n g S t a t e C a p tu r e i n a p u r e
L a b o u r R e l a ti o n s – s e e s S t a t e C a p t u r e i n p u r e L a b o u r R e l a t i o n s A c t ,
10

C C M A , H u m a n R e s o u r c e m a t t e r is j u s t b e y o n d m e .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s o k a y, t w o m a t te r s M r M a n y i , I th i n k t h a t t h e – I ’ m

not looking at the summons here I have not looked at it but based on
w h a t M s H o f m e y r h a s r e a d to m e , r e a d in g t h e s u m m o n s I t h i n k t h a t y o u
m a y w e l l h a v e – it m a y w e l l b e th a t th e s u m m o n s c o u l d h a v e b e e n
f o r m u l a t e d i n a m o r e p r e c is e w a y th a n i t w a s b e c a u s e i t m i g h t l o o k
q u i te w id e w h e r e a s I t h i n k , l is t e n i n g t o w h a t M s H o f m e y r h a s s a i d , i t
m i g h t b e s p e c i fi c m a t te r s d u r i n g y o u r t e n u r e th a t th e y a r e l o o k in g a t, s o
t h a t ’s t h e o n e p o in t .

The second point is that to the extent that you

m a y b e a s k e d q u e s ti o n s t h a t r e la t e t o m a tt e r s w h e r e y o u n e e d m o r e
20

ti m e t o r e c o l l e c t o r to l o o k a t d o c u m e n t s t o r e f r e s h y o u r m e m o r y t h a t
m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g t h a t m i g h t b e l o o k e d a t a s p a r t o f tr y i n g t o m a k e
s u r e th a t t h e r e is f a ir n e s s b u t i t m a y b e th a t t h e r e m a y b e q u e s ti o n s in
r e g a r d to w h ic h y o u w o u l d n o t n e e d m o r e t i m e y o u w o u ld b e in a
p o s i ti o n t o d e a l w i th . S o t h a t’s w h a t I w a n t t o s a y a b o u t t h a t a s p e c t .
W i th r e g a r d t o th e is s u e o f w h a t y o u r t r a n s f e r a n d d is m i s s a l o r

Page 135 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
p u r p o r t e d d is m i s s a l m a y h a v e t o d o w i t h t h e te r ms o f r e fe r e n c e o f t h e
C o m m i s s i o n , I w il l s h a r e w i t h y o u w h a t I’ m i n t e r e s te d i n , i n f i n d in g o u t .
W e h e a r d e v i d e n c e la s t y e a r w h i c h w a s c o n f ir m e d th is m o r n i n g b y M r
M a s e k o th a t h e w a s th e C E O o f G C I S , t h a t h e h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h Mr
A j a y G u p t a a n d t h a t o n h is v e r s i o n M r A j a y G u p t a m a d e c e r ta i n
d e m a n d s o n h i m f o r t h e m e d ia b u d g e t o f G o v e r n m e n t t o b e e ff e c t iv e ly
tr a n s fe r r e d t o t h e ir e n ti t y o r e n ti ti e s a n d t h a t h e r e f u s e d to c o o p e r a te
a n d th a t o n a c e r t a i n S a t u r d a y in O c t o b e r 2 0 1 0 w h i l e h e a n d h i s w i fe
w e r e d r i v i n g t o N o r th W e s t w h e r e h e w a s g o i n g to p a r t ic ip a t e in a g o l f
10

t o u r n a m e n t, h e g o t c a l ls fr o m p e o p l e fr o m w it h in t h e G u p ta e n ti ti e s ,
o n e o f w h ic h w a s M r A j a y G u p t a a n d t h e y h a d a c o n v e r s a ti o n , w h i c h
a c c o r d i n g t o Mr M a s e k o w a s n o t p le a s a n t , a t le a s t i t d i d n o t e n d
p l e a s a n t ly, h e s a i d h e e v e n u s e d a e x p la n a tiv e i n t h e c o u r s e o f th a t b u t
o n e o f th e t h i n g s th a t h e s a i d i s t h a t Mr G u p t a , i f I r e c a ll c o r r e c t ly a n d I
h o p e I d o r e c a l l c o r r e c t ly th is ti m e . O n e o f t h e t h i n g s t h a t M r M a s e k o
s a y s , M r G u p t a s a i d t o h i m w a s s o m e t h in g t o t h e e ffe c t t h a t Mr M a s e k o
w a s n o t c o o p e r a t in g o r w a s n o t p r e p a r e d t o c o o p e r a t e h e w o u l d r e p o r t
h i m t o h i s s e n i o r s a n d h e w o u l d b e , I t h i n k h e u s e d t h e te r m , s o r t e d o u t
o r s o m e th i n g t o t h a t e ff e c t .

20

T h a t w a s , i f I r e c a l l c o r r e c tl y, i t w a s th e e n d o f O c t o b e r a n d
t h e n t h e r e ’s N o v e m b e r / D e c e m b e r a c c o r d i n g to M r M a s e k o e n d o f
J a n u a r y h e s a y s M i n is te r C h a b a n e c a l l e d h i m a n d s a id t h e f o r m e r
P r e s i d e n t h a d in s t r u c te d M i n is t e r C h a b a n e to r e m o v e h i m fr o m G C I S
a n d M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e s a i d to M r M a s e k o w e ll , I w o n ’ t th r o w y o u i n t o
t h e s tr e e ts b e c a u s e I k n o w y o u a r e a g o o d c iv il s e r v a n t , I’ ll t r y a n d s e e

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
w h e r e y o u c a n b e tr a n s f e r r e d o r s o m e th in g to t h a t e ff e c t . S o M r – la s t
y e a r a n d t h is m o r n i n g I a s k e d M r M a s e k o h o w h is r e l a ti o n s h i p w a s w it h
M i n is t e r C h a b a n e a n d h e s a y s , i n e ff e c t v e r y w e ll , t h e y w o r k e d v e r y
w e ll t o g e t h e r a n d t h a t t h e r e a r e n o is s u e s . T h e f o r m e r Pr e s id e n t c a m e
a n d g a v e e v i d e n c e a n d if I r e c a l l c o r r e c t ly, h i s e v i d e n c e w a s t h a t h e
d i d n ’ t i n s tr u c t M i n i s t e r C h a b a n e t o r e m o v e Mr M a s e k o fr o m G C I S a n d
h e s a id s o m e t h in g to t h e e ff e c t th a t th e tr a n s fe r o f Mr M a s e k o m u s t
h a v e h a p p e n e d b e c a u s e m a y b e h is M i n i s t e r d i d n ’ t w a n t to c o n ti n u e
w o r k i n g w i t h h i m , I’ m p a r a p h r a s i n g b e c a u s e h e s a i d i t d i d h a p p e n t h a t
10

s o m e t i m e s M in is t e r s a r e n o t h a p p y w i t h t h e ir D G ’s a n d t h e n t h e y w o u l d
approach him.

A c tu a lly a t s o m e s t a g e i f I’ m n o t m is t a k e n th e f o r m e r

P r e s i d e n t s a i d s o m e th in g a l o n g th e l in e s t h a t s o m e ti m e s t h e M i n i s te r s
u s e d h i s n a m e , I c a n ’t r e m e m b e r, u s e d h i s n a m e to g e t D G ’s
tr a n s fe r r e d .
S o o n e o f th e t h i n g s I’ m i n te r e s t e d i n i s w h e t h e r Mr M a s e k o ’s
tr a n s fe r w a s c o n n e c t e d w it h th e – w i th w h a t M r Aj a y G u p ta s a id t o h i m
a c c o r d i n g t o Mr M a s e k o . N o w w e h a v e a s i t u a t i o n w h e r e Mr M a s e k o ,
e ffe c tiv e l y s a y s , I w a s a v e r y g o o d e m p lo y e e o f G C I S a n d t h is m o r n in g
w e s a w th a t t h e l a s t p e r f o r m a n c e a s s e s s m e n t t h a t h e w a s g i v e n w a s
20

g iv e n a s c o r e o f 11 4 % , h e s a y s I w a s p e r f o r m in g v e r y w e l l I n e v e r g o t
a n y th in g b e l o w 1 0 0 % a n d I n e v e r c o m m it t e d a n y m is c o n d u c t I w a s
n e v e r a ll e g e d to h a v e c o m m i t te d a n y m is c o n d u c t b u t I w a s r e m o v e d . I
d i d n ’ t i n it i a t e m y tr a n s fe r.

S o n o w y o u r e p la c e d h i m , y o u w e r e

tr a n s fe r r e d fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r to G C I S s o i t b e c o m e s
n e c e s s a r y to u n d e r s t a n d y o u r o w n tr a n s f e r. N o w t h e in v e s t i g a t io n th a t

Page 137 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
h a s b e e n d o n e b y t h e C o m m is s i o n h a s r e v e a l e d a le t t e r w r i t te n b y
M i n is t e r O li p h a n t w h o w a s th e M i n i s t e r o f L a b o u r a t t h e t i m e o f t h i s
tr a n s fe r w h e r e s h e s a y s s h e w a s w i t h d r a w i n g y o u r d is m is s a l a n d t h e n
p u t i n a s p e c ia l l e a v e . I f I r e c a ll c o r r e c tl y t h e l e tt e r i s d a te d e i th e r th e
1st

or

th e

2nd

of

February

2 0 11 .

So

one

day

or

two

days

b e f o r e … [ in t e r v e n e s ] .
MR MANYI:

3 1 J a n u a r y.

CHAIRPERSON:

O h 3 1 J a n u a r y o k a y, s o i t h a p p e n s a r o u n d t h i s t i m e

o f t h i s t r a n s f e r th is i s s u e o f th e tr a n s f e r o r Mr M a s e k o a n d I m a y b e
10

m is t a k e n i n h e r a ffi d a v it I u n d e r s t o o d h e r to s a y s h e w i th d r e w y o u r
d is m i s s a l b e c a u s e t h a t’s w h a t M i n is t e r B a l o y i s a i d .

S o o n e n e e d s to

u n d e r s t a n d h o w d i d it c o m e a b o u t if y o u h a d b e e n d is m i s s e d , y o u k n o w,
w h y w a s t h e d is m is s a l w i t h d r a w n w a s t h a t t o fa c i li t a te y o u r tr a n s fe r,
w h a t w a s h a p p e n i n g a n d y o u a r e r i g h t in s a y i n g t h a t m a y b e a l o t o f
t h o s e t h i n g s n e e d t o b e e x p l a i n e d b y o t h e r p e o p le a n d n o t y o u , y o u
k n o w o n t h a t y o u m a y b e r i g h t b u t c e r t a i n l y M i n is te r B a l o y i w ill b e
c o m i n g h e h a s p u t u p a n a ffi d a v i t h e w i ll b e c o m i n g . F o r m e r M i n is te r
M d la d la n a h a s b e e n i n t e r v i e w e d b y t h e l a w y e r s fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n ,
h e m a y o r m a y n o t b e c a ll e d b u t h e c e r t a i n ly h a s b e e n i n te r v i e w e d . M s
20

O li p h a n t i s c o m in g t o m o r r o w s o th o s e w h o w il l b e c a ll e d w i ll b e a s k e d
b u t fr o m m y s i d e , i t ’s i m p o r t a n t t h a t , th a t w h ic h o n e c a n h e a r fr o m y o u
a s to w h a t d o y o u k n o w a b o u t t h i s , I m e a n t h e r e ’s t h e is s u e w h e t h e r
y o u k n e w a b o u t t h e d is m i s s a l t h a t ’s o n e t h i n g b e c a u s e M s O li p h a n t
s a y s s o m e t h in g a b o u t a m e e ti n g t h a t s h e h a d w i t h y o u .
S o th e w h o le i d e a is to tr y a n d u n d e r s t a n d , w h a t w e r e t h e

Page 138 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
r e a s o n s f o r M r M a s e k o ’s tr a n s f e r fr o m G C I S t o D P S A a n d is th e r e
a n y th in g i n r e g a r d t o y o u r o w n t r a n s f e r a n d w i t h d r a w a l o f d is m is s a l th a t
c o u l d t h r o w li g h t o n t h e tr a n s fe r o f M r M a s e k o s o t h a t’s w h a t I - in
r e g a r d t o y o u r tr a n s f e r t h a t ’s w h a t I ’ m v e r y in t e r e s t e d i n .

s o h a v in g

s a i d t h a t i f I c a n , I d o n ’ t w a n t t o m a k e a r u l in g , I ’d li k e t o s e e h o w w e
c a n a c c o m m o d a t e y o u r c o n c e r n s a n d s t i ll b e a b l e t o m o v e f o r w a r d ,
p a r t ly b e c a u s e t h e C o m m i s s io n d o e s n ’ t h a v e a l o t o f t i m e l e f t b e f o r e i t
fi n i s h e s it s w o r k , p a r tl y b e c a u s e t h e C o m m is s i o n m a y h a v e p a i d f o r y o u
t o c o m e h e r e a n d w e w o u ld li k e t o m a k e u s e o f t h a t b u t w e m u s t
10

b a l a n c e t h a t a g a in s t tr y in g t o b e f a ir t o y o u .

So what I had in mind,

a n d I’ d li k e t o h e a r w h a t y o u h a v e t o s a y, w h a t I h a v e i n m in d i s
w h e t h e r y o u d o n ’ t t h in k i t w i ll b e fi n e t o s a y, l e t ’s g e t g o i n g a n d th o s e
q u e s t io n s w i th w h ic h y o u d o n ’ t h a v e a p r o b l e m b e c a u s e y o u c a n d e a l
w i t h th e m , y o u d o n ’ t n e e d m o r e ti m e , y o u d e a l w i th t h e m . I f w e c o m e to
t h o s e w h e r e y o u m ig h t n e e d m o r e t i m e b e c a u s e y o u n e e d t o r e f r e s h
y o u r m e m o r y o n d o c u m e n ts o r w h a te v e r l e t ’s d e a l w it h t h e m , m a y b e a s
and when they occur or later but we try and cover what we can, what do
y o u t h in k a b o u t th a t ?
MR MANYI:
20

Ye s th a n k y o u C h a ir. W e a r e s i t ti n g h e r e C h a ir w i t h

b e n e fi t o f h i n d s ig h t a n d i f I u n d e r s ta n d t h e e s s e n c e o f y o u r is s u e i s
w h e t h e r t h e c o r r u p t i n te n ti o n s w e r e f u lf il l e d , I ’ m p u t t in g w o r d s i n y o u r
m o u th C h a ir, i f y o u ’l l j u s t b e a r w i th m e , i f t h e c o r r u p t i n t e n t io n s w e r e
f u l fi ll e d b y m e t a k i n g o v e r M r M a s e k o .

N o w th e r e is a v e r y c l e a r

h is t o r y o r tr a g e d y o f w h a t h a p p e n e d w h e n I to o k o v e r a f te r M r M a s e k o
f o r i n s ta n c e , j u s t b y w a y o f e x a m p l e , M r M a s e k o m e n t io n s , I t h i n k a

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
fi g u r e o f R 6 0 0 m il li o n t h a t h e w a s m e a n t t o h a v e e n a b l e d a s i t w e r e .
W e h a v e i n fo r m a t i o n h e r e t h a t w a s g iv e n b y N a t io n a l Tr e a s u r y t o s a y
t h a t fr o m J a n u a r y – I th in k fr o m 2 0 11 t o 2 0 1 8 m o n e y t h a t w a s p a i d t o
T N A’s t a b l e a m o u n ts t o s o m e t h i n g l ik e R 2 5 0 m i ll io n a r o u n d t h a t n u m b e r,
t h is is u p t o 2 0 1 8 i t ’s n o t e v e n t h e R 6 0 0 m il li o n b u t t h a t w a s n o t ju s t
fr o m G C I S , t h i s w a s fr o m N a ti o n a l , P r o v i n c i a l, lo c a l t o ta l m o n e y p a i d .
N o w th e m o n e y t h a t , f o r i n s t a n c e G C I S p a i d i n m y t e n u r e , fir s t y e a r in
2 0 11 w a s s o m e t h i n g l ik e e i g h t p o i n t s o m e t h i n g m i ll io n , 2 0 1 2 s e v e n
p o i n t s o m e t h i n g m i ll io n , t h o s e a r e t h e k i n d s o f n u m b e r s . N o w – w h ic h I
10

t h i n k to a n y r e a s o n a b le p e r s o n is a f a r c r y fr o m R 6 0 0 m ill i o n a n d o f t h a t
R 8 m i ll i o n o r R 7 m i lli o n o f th is n e x t y e a r, n o t o n e o f th o s e tr a n s a c ti o n s
t h e r e ’s a n is s u e o f ir r e g u la r i ty o n , t h e y w e r e a ll d o n e a b o v e b o a r d a n d
a l l o f t h a t a s i t w e r e a n d a l l t h e d e c is io n s w e r e d o n e w i t h o u t my
p e r s o n a l i n te r v e n t io n . T h e r e is n o r e c o r d o f a n y b o d y i n G C I S s a y i n g I
c o e r c e d t h e m to d o 1 , 2 , 3 w h ic h w a s t h e r e a s o n I e v e n h a d t o d o th a t
S M S m i s t a k e b e c a u s e t h e b u l ly i n g t h a t M s W il li a m s w a s ta lk i n g a b o u t
h a p p e n e d i n 2 0 1 3 o r s o m e w h e r e w h e n I w a s lo n g g o n e a n d I s e e e v e n
m e d i a o r s e e in g i t C h a ir, e v e n y e s t e r d a y i n th e C i tiz e n w h e n t h e y w e r e
t a lk in g a b o u t m e c o m i n g h e r e , p a r t o f t h e n a r r a tiv e i s th a t I w a s

20

in v o lv e d i n b u l ly in g t h e D e p a r t m e n t to g o i n to b r e a k fa s t, s o m e t h in g I
n e v e r d id , t h i s is w h y f o r m e , it w a s s o p r e s s in g t h a t I d e a l w i th t h a t
m a t t e r th a t , th a t i s s u e o f b r e a k fa s t h a s g o t n o t h i n g to d o w i t h m e a n d
a l l o f t h a t . S o C h a ir I ’ m s i t t in g h e r e , I’ m s a y i n g w h y a m I a c t u a ll y h e r e
b e c a u s e i f a n y b o d y i n m y t e n u r e h a s g o t a s p e c i fi c i r r e g u l a r i ty t h a t y o u
c a n p o i n t a t , w e c a n d e a l w it h t h a t i f t h e r e ’s a n y a n d I c a n t e l l y o u n o w

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C h a ir, t h e r e ’s n o i r r e g u l a r i ty d u r i n g m y t e n u r e . T h e o t h e r th i n g s a b o u t
h o w I c a m e h e r e , M i n i s t e r B a lo y i is c o m i n g t o m o r r o w o r a n y o t h e r d a y,
M i n is t e r O l i p h a n t , th e [ i n d is ti n c t ] th o s e w e r e t h e p e o p l e t h o s e a r e t h e
p l a y e r s , I w a s a p a w n … [ in t e r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

W e a ls o n e e d t o k n o w w h a t y o u k n e w, y o u s e e t h a t is

p a r t o f – t h e y m a y s a y w h a t e v e r a n d m a y b e s o m e o f t h e t h in g s t h e y s a y
y o u m i g h t n o t a g r e e w i t h , y o u k n o w I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r – w h e n fo r
e x a m p l e M s O l i p h a n t s a y s i n h e r a ff id a v i t s h e h a d a m e e ti n g w i t h y o u
w h e r e , a s I r e c a l l h e r e v i d e n c e in th e a ffi d a v i t y o u s a i d y o u w e r e g o in g
10

t o a p p e a l a g a in s t t h e d i s m is s a l . I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r y o u a g r e e w i th
t h a t v e r s i o n o r n o t s o t h a t’s p a r t o f w h a t , f o r m e is i m p o r ta n t b u t I t h i n k
t o s tr ik e a b a l a n c e i t m i g h t b e p r e f e r a b l e t o s a y, le t ’s p r o c e e d , t h o s e
q u e s t io n s t h a t y o u a r e a b l e t o a n s w e r w i t h o u t a n y d i ffi c u l ty d o s o .
T h o s e w h e r e y o u n e e d m o r e ti m e , y o u k n o w a r t ic u l a t e y o u r r e q u e s t a n d
t h e n l e t ’s ta k e it fr o m t h e r e , w i ll t h a t b e a l r ig h t?
MR MANYI:

O k a y C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HOFMEYR:

O k a y th a n k y o u v e r y m u c h , y e s M s H o f m e y r ?
T h a n k y o u C h a ir.

M r M a n y i I w a s b e g i n n i n g w i th

y o u r e v i d e n c e i n N o v e m b e r o f l a s t y e a r t h a t o c c u r r e d o n th e 1 4 t h , th e
20

2 6 t h a n d t h e 2 7 t h o f N o v e m b e r. M r M a n y i I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t y o u r a is e a n
is s u e w it h th e S e c r e t a r i a t a b o u t a n i n c o r r e c t r e c o r d a l i n t h e t r a n s c r i p t
o f t h e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r w h e n y o u t o o k t h e o a th . T h e q u e s t i o n th a t w a s
p u t t o M r M a n y i w a s , d o y o u o b j e c t to t a k in g t h e o a t h , h e s a i d n o b u t
t h e tr a n s c r ip t r e c o r d s y e s . M r M a n y i d i d y o u r a is e t h a t c o n c e r n w i t h t h e
Secretariat?

Page 141 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M R M A N Y I:

Ye s C h a ir I r a is e d a c o n c e r n a n d I’ v e a lr e a d y b e e n g i v e n

f e e d b a c k t h a t it ’s b e e n s o r te d o u t , s o i t ’s s o r te d o u t s o th a t ’s w h y I’ m
not raising it here.
CHAIRPERSON:

Oh okay thank you.

ADV HOFMEYR:

S u p e r, r i g h t i f w e c a n t h e n g o to t h e q u e s t io n s t h a t

y o u r e c e iv e d fr o m t h e C o m m i s s i o n i n t h e l e t t e r d a t e d th e 1 6 t h o f
O c t o b e r 2 0 1 9 th a t y o u w i ll fi n d in N N 2 c o m m e n c i n g o n p a g e 11 7 . C h a ir
I d o n ’ t s u g g e s t w e h a v e to g o to i t i m m e d i a te ly b u t t h e r e w e r e a – I
w o u ld s u g g e s t M r M a n y i t w o s e c ti o n s t o t h a t r e q u e s t , t h e o n e w a s t o
10

a s k y o u f o r r e s p o n s e s to M s W il li a m s ’ e v id e n c e a n d th e o t h e r w a s to
a s k y o u a b o u t t h e m a t te r s w e ’v e b e e n f o c u s i n g o n r e c e n t ly a n d t h a t
o c c u r u n d e r a h e a d in g , D is c i p l in a r y P r o c e s s w h e n y o u w e r e a t t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r. D o y o u r e c a ll r e c e iv i n g t h a t r e q u e s t , th e le t t e r
c o n c l u d e s … [ i n t e r v e n e s ]?
CHAIRPERSON:

H a n g o n , h a n g o n h e h a s n ’ t b e e n h e r e f o r a lo n g

ti m e , h e h a s f o r g o t te n t h a t i f h e n o d s t h a t’s n o t c a p tu r e d i n th e r e c o r d .
MR MANYI:

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV
20

Ye s t h e a n s w e r is y e s ?

HOFMEYR:

Th a t

l e t te r

concluded

r e q u e s t in g

you

t o … [i n t e r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k y o u c a n k e e p y o u r m ic o n M r M a n y i I’ ll k e e p

m i n e o ff u n le s s I h a v e to s a y s o m e t h i n g .
MR MANYI:

O k a y.

ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d I’l l ta k e c a r e o f tu r n i n g m in e o ff a t t h a t p o i n t Mr

M a n y i s o y o u w o n ’ t n e e d t o w o r r y a b o u t y o u r m ic r o p h o n e . T h a t l e t te r

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
c o n c l u d e d a s k in g y o u t o p r o v id e a n a ff id a v i t a d d r e s s i n g t h e i s s u e s in
t h e l e t te r, w h a t t h e n c a m e w e r e t w o d o c u m e n ts Mr M a n y i , t h e f ir s t w a s
a n a ffi d a v i t a n d t h a t y o u ’ ll fi n d i n N N 2 fr o m p a g e o n e a n d t h a t
concludes at page 24 as I have it.
MR MANYI:

Ja.

ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d t h a t w a s d e p o s e d t o a s a n a ffi d a v i t is t h a t

correct?
MR MANYI:

J a th a t i s c o r r e c t t h a t is a n a ffi d a v it .

ADV HOFMEYR:
10

I t is th e n f o ll o w e d a t p a g e 2 5 w i t h w h a t a p p e a r s to

b e a le t t e r n o t d e p o s e d to b e fo r e a C o m m is s i o n e r o f O a t h , is m y
u n d e r s t a n d in g c o r r e c t ?
MR MANYI:

T h a t is c o r r e c t ja .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u r a n s w e r s t o t h e q u e s ti o n s a b o u t t h e d is c i p l in a r y

p r o c e s s a p p e a r o n ly i n t h e le t t e r a n d n o t i n t h e a ffi d a v i t s o I w o u l d li k e
t o g iv e y o u a n o p p o r t u n i ty n o w to g o t o p a g e 3 8 o f N N 2 .
MR MANYI:

Ja.

A D V H O F M E Y R : O n t h a t p a g e , fr o m p a r a g r a p h 7 y o u a r e r e s p o n d i n g t o
q u e s t io n s a b o u t y o u r d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s a n d y o u s e t o u t y o u r a n s w e r s
t o t h e q u e s ti o n s th e r e , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
20

MR MANYI:

Ye s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

G i v e n t h a t t h i s w a s n ’ t d e p o s e d to u n d e r o a t h c a n y o u

n o w c o n f ir m u n d e r o a t h t h a t t h e a n s w e r s y o u g i v e h e r e i n t h is s e c t io n
o f t h e l e t t e r a r e tr u e a n d c o r r e c t ?
MR MANYI:

J a th e y a r e c o r r e c t y e s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u , I ’d t h e n l ik e t o g o t o y o u r tr a n s c r i p t , y o u

Page 143 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
in d i c a t e t h a t s o m e o f th e e v i d e n c e a b o u t w h ic h y o u w e r e a s k e d
q u e s t io n s o c c u r r e d o n th e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r I th i n k th e y a c t u a l ly b e g a n
o n t h e 1 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r a n d s o I’ d l ik e t o ta k e y o u t o th a t tr a n s c r ip t .
C h a ir w e ’ v e p r e p a r e d a b u n d l e o f t h e tr a n s c r i p ts o f M r M a n y i ’s
t e s ti m o n y b e c a u s e i t i s i m p o r t a n t t h a t w e g o t o t h e s p e c i fic p a g e s o f
t h o s e t r a n s c r i p ts . S o i f I c o u ld b e g l e a v e t o h a n d t h a t u p t o y o u a n d M r
M a n y i y o u s h o u l d h a v e a c o p y a v a i la b le o n y o u r r i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s m a y b e s o m e b o d y c o u l d a p p r o a c h h i m t o i n d ic a te

w h ic h o n e i t i s u n l e s s i t ’s c le a r fr o m w h a t ’s w r it t e n , w h i c h o n e i t is .
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

I t is w r it t e n o n t h e s id e E x h i b i t N N Tr a n s c r ip ts

bundle, do you see that Mr Manyi?
MR MANYI:

Ye s .

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:

S o r r y ju s t f o r th e r e c o r d ?

Ye s I’v e g o t it .

ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d i f I m a y b e g l e a v e t o h a n d u p a c o p y f o r th e

C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s , I’ v e g o t i t .

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, t h e f il e c o m p r i s e s th e th r e e

r e l e v a n t tr a n s c r ip ts o f t h e 1 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r, t h e 2 6 t h o f N o v e m b e r a n d
20

t h e 2 7 t h o f N o v e m b e r a n d I ’ d l ik e t o s t a r t , i f I m a y, i n th e r e l e v a n t p a r t
o f th e t r a n s c r i p t o f t h e 1 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r. Mr M a n y i y o u ’l l p i c k t h a t u p
a t p a g e 8 9 o f t h e 1 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r tr a n s c r i p t , u n l ik e i n o t h e r
c a s e s … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a t ’s u n d e r ta g w h a t ?
U n d e r ta g o n e a p o lo g i e s C h a ir, t h a t ’s t h e f ir s t t a g

Page 144 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
w h ic h c o n t a in s t h e 1 4 N o v e m b e r tr a n s c r i p t a n d u n u s u a l ly y o u n o w n e e d
t o l o o k a t t h e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e f o r th e r e le v a n t p a g e o f t h e t r a n s c r i p t ,
u s u a ll y w e lo o k i n t h e to p r ig h t- h a n d c o r n e r fo r t h e p a g i n a ti o n b u t n o w
w e a r e i n th e b o t t o m o f t h e p a g e b e c a u s e t h a t ’s h o w t h e tr a n s c r ip t s a r e
p r o d u c e d f o r t h e C o m m is s i o n .

10

CHAIRPERSON:

W h a t ’s th e p a g e n u m b e r ?

ADV HOFMEYR:

89.

CHAIRPERSON:

Thank you.

ADV HOFMEYR:

I’ d li k e to p ic k i t u p t o w a r d s t h e b o t t o m o f th e p a g e ,

b e c a u s e p r i o r t o t h is i n y o u r e v i d e n c e y o u ’v e b e e n ta lk in g a b o u t th e
a p p r o a c h t h a t M in is t e r C h a b a n e m a d e t o y o u a n d y o u ’l l s e e t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n i s r e c o r d e d i n a b o u t t h e s i x t h l in e fr o m t h e b o tt o m a s
having asked you,
“In

other

words,

h is

approach,

t h a t ’s

reference

to

Mr

C h a b a n e ’s a p p r o a c h t o y o u , w a s i t i n r e s p o n s e t o a n y r e q u e s t
m a d e b y y o u o r w i s h t o b e m o v e d fr o m t h e p o s i t io n o f D G o f
Department of Labour”,
A n d t h e n c a n y o u g iv e u s y o u r r e s p o n s e a s i t ’s r e f le c te d
there?
20

MR MANYI:

I said no.

ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:

C o n ti n u e to r e a d i t t il l th e e n d o f th e p a g e p le a s e ?

I said,

“ N o C h a ir p e r s o n it w a s n o t , I h a d n o t r e q u e s te d t o b e m o v e d
t o th a t p o s i t io n b u t th e r e w a s a s i t u a t io n t h a t I t h i n g
G o v e r n m e n t w a s d e a li n g w i t h b e c a u s e a t t h a t t i m e a t t h e

Page 145 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r w e h a d s o m e k in d o f a f a ll - o u t w it h t h e
M i n is t e r a t t h e t i m e ” .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Thank you and then if you go over the page, please

in d i c a t e w h a t y o u c o n ti n u e d to s a y ?
MR MANYI:

I said,

“ I n f a c t I w a s o n p r e c a u ti o n a r y s p e c i a l le a v e ” .
T h a t is w h a t I s a y h e r e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d t h e n t h e C h a i r p e r s o n i n te r j e c t e d a n d q u e s ti o n e d ,

w e r e y o u lo o k i n g fo r t h e w o r d , s u s p e n s i o n a n d th e n w h a t d i d y o u s a y i n
10

response?
MR MANYI:

I said,

“ N o s p e c i a l l e a v e , it s ta r t e d a s p r e c a u ti o n a r y l e a v e t h e n i t
g r a d e d i n to a s p e c i a l le a v e a n d a ll o f t h a t ” .
ADV HOFMEYR:

R i g h t a n d t h e n f u r t h e r d o w n th a t p a g e , y o u w e r e

a s k e d a b o u t t h e a p p r o a c h a g a i n a n d t h e C h a i r p e r s o n a s k e d fo r
c la r i fi c a t io n , a lr i g h t a n d t h e n th is a p p r o a c h fr o m y o u s a w a s a n
a p p r o a c h t o tr y a n d d e a l w i t h t h a t s i t u a t i o n b e c a u s e p r e v i o u s l y y o u h a d
s p o k e n a b o u t t h e f a l l- o u t b e tw e e n y o u r s e lf a n d t h e m i n is te r a n d y o u r
r e s p o n s e t h e r e fr o m y e s , w h a t d i d y o u s a y in y o u r e v i d e n c e p r e v io u s ly ?
20

MR MANYI:

I d o n ’ t k n o w w h a t … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .

ADV HOFMEYR:

A p o lo g ie s m i d d l e o f th e w a y d o w n , a ft e r t h e

C h a ir p e r s o n ’s q u e s t io n ,
“ O k a y, a l r i g h t a n d t h e n t h i s a p p r o a c h fr o m h i m y o u s a w a s
a n a p p r o a c h to tr y a n d d e a l w i th t h a t s i t u a t io n ” .
And what was your evidence?

Page 146 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
MR MANYI:

Ja I said,

“ Ye s I t h o u g h t i t w a s a r e s o l u t i o n b e c a u s e I h a d b e e n a t h o m e
f o r a c o u p l e o f m o n t h s a c t u a ll y s o w h e n t h is c a m e I s a id , o h
w e ll b e c a u s e … ”
I t h in k t h e r e ’s s o m e g r a m m a t ic a l e r r o r in t h is tr a n s c r ip t io n
h e r e C h a ir, s o I w r o t e s o m e t h in g w h i c h I f e e l is e v e n w r o n g a s I’ m
r e a d in g i t .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MANYI:
10

Ye s n o t t h a t ’s f in e .

I said,

“ W e ll b e c a u s e e v e n f o r t h a t w i t h o u t g o in g t o t h a t [i n d is t in c t ] I
n e v e r g o t r e a lly c h a r g e d i n t o a d i s c i p li n a r y p r o c e s s a n d
w h a t e v e r a n d s o w h e n i t w a s s o m e th in g t h a t w a s a b o u t t o
h a p p e n o r g o in g to h a p p e n m o n t h s r o l le d b y ” .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you, you can continue.
M R M A N Y I: “ I w a s s i t ti n g a n d p r e p a r a t i o n s w e r e b e i n g m a d e to d o a ll
k in d s o f c h a r g e s b u t b o t t o m li n e is th a t I d o n o t s i t w i t h a
g u il ty v e r d ic t o r h a v i n g s a id a n d b e i n g d e a l t w i th b y t h e D C .
S o w h i l e th a t p r o c e s s w a s b u s y r o ll in g a n d s o o n , I t h i n k
s a n i ty p r e v a i le d fr o m w h e r e I s i t a n d th e n I h a d to m o v e o n ” .

20

ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k y o u , Mr M a n y i I ’d lik e y o u r c o m m e n t o n w h a t I

u n d e r s t a n d th e g is t o f th a t e v i d e n c e to b e . I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r e v id e n c e
t o b e th e r e h a d b e e n a f a l l- o u t b e t w e e n y o u a n d th e M i n is t e r o f L a b o u r,
M i n is t e r M d la d la n a , is th a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MANYI:

Ye s c o r r e c t .

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a t y o u h a d n e v e r b e e n c h a r g e d i n r e l a ti o n t o a

Page 147 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
d is c i p l i n a r y p r o c e s s , is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
MR MANYI:

I t h i n k e ls e w h e r e – t h a t’s n o t c o r r e c t , I t h i n k e ls e w h e r e I

d o m e n ti o n , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e t h e r i t ’s h e r e o r w h e r e th a t t h e r e w a s a
s i tt i n g C h a i r w h e r e t h e r e w a s a l l t h e l a w y e r s a n d t h e C h a i r o f th e D C
a n d I t h i n k a b o u t h a l f a n h o u r o r s o m e t h i n g i n to t h a t p r o c e s s , t h e
C h a ir p e r s o n g o t a c a l l a n d fr o m t h e n o n w a r d s , th e p r o c e e d i n g s s t o p p e d
a n d th e m e e ti n g w a s a d j o u r n e d – th is is ju s t m y r e c o l le c t i o n a n d t h a t
w a s it . T h a t w a s t h e e n d o f t h e p r o c e s s a n d a ll o f th a t a n d th e n I w e n t
b a c k s it t in g h o m e a g a i n , t h i s is m y r e c o l le c t io n .
10

ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr Manyi that evidence does not appear in any of

t h e s e t h r e e tr a n s c r i p ts , t h e r e w a s n o r e f e r e n c e t o 3 0 m i n u t e s in t o a
d is c i p l i n a r y h e a r i n g .

Yo u m a y b e r e c a l li n g w h a t y o u h a v e s a i d

s u b s e q u e n t to t h e e n g a g e m e n t w i th th e C o m m i s s i o n b u t w h a t I’ m
in t e r e s te d i n , i s w h a t y o u s a i d h e r e … [ i n te r v e n e s ].
CHAIRPERSON:

N o I th in k y o u h a v e g o t th a t , I t h o u g h t I w a n t e d t o

e x p l a i n Mr M a n y i t h a t in r e g a r d t o q u e s ti o n s th a t M s H o f m e y r m a y a s k
a n d r e f e r y o u t o t h e tr a n s c r i p t y o u m a y h a v e a s i t u a t io n w h e r e , w h a t
s h e ’s w a n t i n g y o u t o d o is to c o n fir m w h a t a n s w e r y o u g a v e a t t h e ti m e
y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e w h ic h m i g h t b e d i ff e r e n t fr o m w h a t y o u m i g h t s a y
20

n o w. F o r e x a m p l e , i f w h e n y o u g a v e e v i d e n c e y o u m i g h t h a v e s a i d t h is
is t h e a n s w e r b e c a u s e th a t w a s y o u r r e c o ll e c ti o n a t th e ti m e b u t s i n c e
t h e n y o u h a v e m a y b e h a v e s e e n s o m e d o c u m e n t s th a t h a v e i n d ic a t e d t o
y o u th a t a c t u a ll y y o u r r e c o l le c t i o n w a s in c o r r e c t . S o i f y o u w e r e t o b e
a s k e d t h e s a m e q u e s t io n n o w y o u ’ d s a y n o t h a t ’s n o t t h e a n s w e r I
w o u ld g iv e b u t t h a t’s b e c a u s e I ’v e h a d t i m e t o r e c o ll e c t o r I ’v e s e e n

Page 148 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
some documents.

S o I ju s t w a n t t o m a k e s u r e t h a t a s s h e a s k s

q u e s t io n s r e m e m b e r t h a t s o m e t i m e s s h e m a y b e a s k i n g y o u t o j u s t
c o n fir m w h a t y o u s a i d t h e n w h ic h m i g h t o r m ig h t n o t n e c e s s a r il y b e t h e
a n s w e r y o u ’ d g iv e n o w i f i n t h e m e a n ti m e s o m e t h i n g h a s r e fr e s h e d y o u r
m e m o r y.
MR MANYI:

O k a y.

CHAIRPERSON:

J a o k a y.

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir. S o le t m e g e t c le a r, w h e n y o u s a i d

p r e v i o u s ly, I n e v e r g o t r e a lly c h a r g e d , a r e y o u s a y i n g t h a t w a s n o t
10

correct?
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h i n k f o l lo w i n g my c l a r i f ic a ti o n M r M a n y i , I th in k

w h e n s h e p u ts th e q u e s ti o n lik e t h a t i t m i g h t b e v a g u e t o y o u b e c a u s e
s h e c o u l d b e s a y i n g a r e y o u s a y in g t h a t ’s n o t w h a t y o u s a id h e r e o r s h e
m i g h t b e s a y in g a r e y o u s a y i n g n o w y o u w e r e n o t c h a r g e d ? N o w I d o n ’t
w a n t t o p a r a p h r a s e t h e q u e s ti o n f o r h e r b u t m a y b e w i th t h a t i n m in d M s
H o f m e y r y o u c o u l d j u s t th e n e i t h e r p u t i t a g a in o r c l a r i fy w h e t h e r y o u
w a n t h i m t o s a y w h a t h e s a id p r e v i o u s ly h e r e o r w h e t h e r y o u w a n t h i m
t o s a y w h a t h e m a y b e s a y i n g n o w i f i t mi g h t b e d i ffe r e n t .
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, I ’ m in d e b t e d .

Mr Manyi in your

e v i d e n c e o n t h e 1 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 8 d i d y o u t e s t if y t h a t y o u h a d n o t
been charged?
MR MANYI:

J a C h a ir p e r s o n – y e s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d d o y o u m a i n t a i n t h a t t o d a y a s y o u s it h e r e g i v i n g

evidence that you were not charged?
MR MANYI:

C a n I j u s t s a y th is C h a ir s o th a t w e d o n ’ t s p e a k

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
s e m a n ti c s .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MANYI:

Ye s .

Th e r e w a s a b u n d l e – th e r e i s a S t a t e A t t o r n e y b u n d l e

w h e r e th e lis t o f a ll e g a t io n s /c h a r g e s a r e lis t e d a s i t w e r e .

Th e r e ’s a

w h o le p a c k o f t h a t , t h e n th e r e w a s a p r o c e s s t h a t w e n e e d e d t o g o
t h r o u g h to d e a l w it h t h a t w h e r e I d e f e n d m y s e lf . I h a d a lr e a d y m a d e
s u b m is s io n s t o a l l t h e a ll e g a t i o n s . N o w – s o t h a t p r o c e s s h a p p e n e d ,
p a r t o f t h e q u e s t io n s h e r e to s a y w h a t w e r e t h e d e t a i ls o f y o u r c h a r g e s ,
I r e s p o n d e d t o s a y S t a te A t t o r n e y h a s g o t a l l t h e fi le s . S o I ’v e g o t e v e n
10

in m y – a m e n ta l p ic t u r e o f a v e r y t h ic k f il e t h a t h a s g o t a l is t o f
a l le g a ti o n s /c h a r g e s a n d I k n o w t h a t w e ’v e r e s p o n d e d to t h e m , n o w w e
n e e d e d to s it o n a D C t o d e a l w it h t h o s e t h i n g s o r a l ly a s i t w e r e . N o w
it ’s

a

t e c h n ic a l q u e s ti o n

whether

you

were

charged

or

not so

if … [ i n te r v e n e s ] .
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MANYI:

Ye s i s w h y I h a v e a d il e m m a .

CHAIRPERSON:
H o f m e y r.

I u n d e r s t a n d y o u … [ i n t e r v e n e s ].

N o , n o I u n d e r s t a n d . M a y b e l e t ’s p u t i t t h i s w a y M s

D i d y o u , i n t e r m s o f w h a t y o u s a i d b e fo r e t h e C o m m i s s i o n

p r e v i o u s ly, a r e y o u a b l e t o s a y w h e t h e r y o u r e v i d e n c e r e f le c t e d t h a t
20

y o u h a d r e c e i v e d a l le g a ti o n s o f m i s c o n d u c t fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o r a r e
y o u – d o y o u n o t r e c a l l w h e th e r y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s t o t h a t e ff e c t ?
MR MANYI:

I d o n ’ t th in k th a t q u e s ti o n a r o s e b u t th e f a c t o f t h e m a t t e r

I did.
CHAIRPERSON:

T h e f a c t o f t h e m a t te r i s y o u d i d r e c e i v e a ll e g a t io n s

a n d y o u s a y t h e r e w a s a m e e t in g a t w h ic h y o u r u n d e r s t a n d i n g w a s t h a t

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t h o s e a ll e g a ti o n s w e r e d e a l t w it h a n d y o u w e r e s u p p o s e d t o d e f e n d
yourself.
MR MANYI:

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MANYI:

B u t i t w a s n o t t a k e t o fi n a l it y ?

Ye s C h a ir.

CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HOFMEYR:

O k a y M s H o f m e y r.
W h y d i d y o u s a y i n y o u r e v id e n c e o n t h e 1 4 t h o f

November then that you did not get charged?
MR MANYI:
10

I t ’s b e c a u s e I t h o u g h t , o k a y m a y b e i t ’s a te c h n ic a l it y

C h a ir, m y m e a n in g f o r t h a t i s th a t if y o u g o t h r o u g h a D C t h e n
a l le g a ti o n s g e t t a b l e d o r w h a t e v e r t h e n w e h a v e t h a t d is c u s s i o n w i t h
DC

and

some

r u l in g

is

made

one

by

one

on

some

of

the

a l le g a ti o n s /c h a r g e s t h a t a r e m a d e . Th e is s u e I w a s tr y in g t o t a lk t o is
t h a t , th a t d i d n ’ t h a p p e n .
CHAIRPERSON:

A r e y o u s a y i n g y o u r u n d e r s ta n d i n g o f b e i n g c h a r g e d

w o u ld b e th a t a t a s e s s i o n s u c h a s t h e o n e y o u a r e t a l k i n g a b o u t ,
somebody would then say to you, Mr Manyi you are charged with A, B,
C, D is that what you are saying?
MR MANYI:
20

Ye s .

CHAIRPERSON:
M R M A N Y I:

T h a t ’s w h a t y o u w o u l d c a l l b e i n g c h a r g e d ?

C o r r e c t C h a ir b e c a u s e – o r p u t d i ff e r e n t ly i f th e r e w a s –

ja t h a t ’s w h a t I’ m s a y i n g C h a ir y e s .
CHAIRPERSON:
ADV HOFMEYR:

O k a y th a n k y o u , M s H o f m e y r.
J u s t t o c l a r i fy f o r m y p u r p o s e s M r M a n y i y o u d o n ’ t

u n d e r s t a n d i t to b e th e c a s e t h a t i f y o u r e c e iv e a lis t o f c h a r g e s f r o m

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
y o u r f o r m e r e m p l o y e r i d e n ti fy i n g t h o s e a s p e c ts w h ic h y o u m u s t g o to a
d is c i p l i n a r y to a n s w e r th a t i s n ’ t y e t b e i n g c h a r g e d , is t h a t y o u r
evidence?
MR MANYI:

I s u p p o s e C h a ir t h a t c o u l d b e c h a r g e s b u t I t h o u g h t

c h a r g e s w e r e a s te p a b o v e a ll e g a t io n s . I h a v e a l is t o f a ll e g a t i o n s th a t
I h a d t o r e s p o n d t o , s o I th o u g h t t h e r e w o u l d c o m e a ti m e w h e n
a l le g a ti o n s g e t ta k e n to t h e n e x t l e v e l t h a t y o u ’v e r e s p o n d e d t o t h is ,
w i t h y o u r r e s p o n s e w e h a v e n o t s u c c e s s f u l ly a d d r e s s e d a ll e g a t io n s
t h e r e f o r e y o u a r e c h a r g e d w i th w h a t e v e r. S o t h a t is fo r m e th e p r o c e s s
10

in m y m i n d a b o u t a p e r s o n b e i n g g iv e n a w h o le l is t o f a ll e g a t io n s t h a t
s t il l m u s t b e p r o c e s s e d t o b e c h a r g e s b e c a u s e w e f a i le d to r e s p o n d t o
t h e m . S o I w a s g iv e n a l is t o f t h o s e a l le g a ti o n s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d i f t h e d o c u m e n t w e r e g iv e n r e f e r r e d t o t h e m a s

c h a r g e s w o u l d y o u s t il l o n l y r e g a r d t h e m a s a l le g a ti o n s ?
MR MANYI:

C o r r e c t C h a ir, I w o u ld s til l r e g a r d t h e m a s a l le g a ti o n s

b e c a u s e a c h a r g e is s o m e t h i n g th a t is a b i t m o r e o b je c t iv e th a t w o u l d
s a y, in t e r m s o f t h is , t h i s , th is le t ’s s a y w h a t e v e r, a n d i t p r o v e n to b e
lik e th a t , th e n th a t c h a r g e s t ic k s a s i t w e r e b u t a n y a l le g a t i o n c a n n o t b e
e l e v a te d i n t o a c h a r g e e v e n i f y o u c a ll i t a c h a r g e .
20

It becomes a

c h a r g e o n c e i t h a s b e e n fo r t i fi e d b u t i f i t h a s n o t b e e n p r o p e r l y f o r t if i e d
it ’s a n a ll e g a t io n e v e n i f y o u c a l l i t a c h a r g e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr M a n y i j u s t t o g o b a c k t o y o u r e v i d e n c e o f t h e 1 4 t h

o f N o v e m b e r a n d b e a r in g i n m i n d t h e C h a i r ’s d i r e c t i o n a s t o b e c l e a r a s
t o w h e t h e r I’ m a s k i n g y o u a b o u t w h a t y o u s a id th e n o r w h a t y o u s a y
n o w, d o y o u a c c e p t t h a t y o u r e v i d e n c e b e fo r e t h e C o m m is s i o n o n th e

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
1 4 t h o f N o v e m b e r w a s t h a t y o u r e m a i n e d o n l e a v e fr o m t h e p e r i o d y o u
w e r e p u t o n p r e c a u ti o n a r y s u s p e n s io n th r o u g h to s p e c ia l l e a v e u n ti l t h e
ti m e t h a t y o u w e r e tr a n s fe r r e d to G C I S ?
MR MANYI:

Ye s c o r r e c t , c o r r e c t C h a ir.

ADV HOFMEYR:

A n d t h e o th e r a s p e c t o f y o u r e v i d e n c e w a s th a t th e r e

w a s n o g u il ty v e r d ic t f r o m t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s , i s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M A N Y I:

T h a t ’s c o r r e c t C h a ir, I d o n ’ t e v e n h a v e t h e r e p o r t o f t h e

session even as we speak.

10

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV HOFMEYR:

S o l e t ’s ju s t t a lk a b o u t t h a t d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s i f w e

m a y f o r a m o m e n t , a s y o u s i t h e r e t o d a y, d o y o u m a i n ta in t h a t fr o m t h e
p e r i o d y o u w e r e p l a c e d o n s u s p e n s i o n t ill t h e ti m e y o u w e r e tr a n s fe r r e d
t o G C I S y o u w e r e a l w a y s in t h e e m p lo y o f t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r ?
MR

MANYI:

That

is

my

understanding

C h a ir,

it

was

c a ll e d

p r e c a u t io n a r y s u s p e n s i o n . I th i n k th e r e a r e t w o d i ff e r e n t th i n g s t h e r e is
s u s p e n s i o n w h i c h is a p u n it iv e s u s p e n s i o n t h e n t h e r e ’s p r e c a u t io n a r y
s u s p e n s i o n . I w a s o n p r e c a u t io n a r y s u s p e n s i o n w h e r e b y I w a s g e t t in g
paid in that process.
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

MR MANYI:

Were you paid throughout the process?

T h a t’s my u n d e r s t a n d i n g y e s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

W e r e y o u p a i d in D e c e m b e r o f 2 0 1 0 a n d i n J a n u a r y

o f 2 0 11 .
M R M A N Y I:

I w a s p a id i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 y e s , 2 0 11 p a y m e n t J a n u a r y

c a m e la t e i t c a m e i n F e b r u a r y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

S o n o is s u e s w i t h y o u r r e c e i p t o f a s a l a r y a l e r t e d y o u

Page 153 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t o th e f a c t t h a t y o u w e r e n ’ t s t ill i n t h e e m p l o y o f th e D e p a r t m e n t o f
L a b o u r.
MR MANYI:

I n fa c t t h e D e c e m b e r o n e w a s a c l e a r e r s ig n b e c a u s e I

t h i n k t h e D e p a r t m e n t C h a i r w e r e g e t ti n g p a i d a r o u n d t h e 1 5 t h u n le s s i f
t h e 1 5 t h is m a y b e i n t h e w e e k e n d t h e n y o u g e t p a i d o n t h e 1 3 t h .

So

a r o u n d mi d - m o n t h i n D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 w h ic h i n f a c t i s a n o th e r i s s u e f o r
m e t h a t i f I ’ m t o ld t h a t fr o m t h e 1 s t o f D e c e m b e r b a s i c a ll y o u t o f t h e
s y s te m , s o h o w c o m e i n m y b a n k s t a t e m e n ts in D e c e m b e r I’v e g o t – y o u
k n o w i n t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r C h a i r t h e p a y r o l l i s c a l le d – o n t h e
10

b a n k s t a te m e n t i t a p p e a r s a s M a n n e k r a g , s o I ’v e g o t M a n n e k r a g
tr a n s a c ti o n s th a t h a v e c o m e t h r o u g h f o r m e in D e c e m b e r. S o I h a d a
h a p p y D e c e m b e r i n 2 0 1 0 s o I d id n ’t u n d e r s t a n d m y s e l f to b e d is m is s e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

M y A f r ik a a n s i s n o t v e r y g o o d b u t I w o n d e r w h e th e r

M a n n e k r a g i s a n y t h i n g l ik e M a n P o w e r ?
MR MANYI:

Ye s m u s t b e C h a ir, m u s t b e M a n P o w e r.

CHAIRPERSON:
MR MANYI:

20

O k a y.

B u t th a t ’s h o w th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r … [ i n t e r v e n e s ] .

CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

ADV HOFMEYR:

So as at December 2010 you had no knowledge that

y o u h a d b e e n d i s m is s e d fr o m t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r ?
M R M A N Y I:

L ik e I e x p l a i n e d C h a i r – b y t h e w a y w h e n I w a s p r e p a r i n g

f o r t h i s I a c tu a l ly w e n t t o N e d b a n k a n d s a i d , c a n y o u g iv e my s t a te m e n t
f o r D e c e m b e r, I ju s t w a n t t o s e e i f I ’v e b e e n p a i d a n d i f t h e C h a ir w a n t s
to see I can show you the statement here now that I got paid in
D e c e m b e r. S o t h e r e ’s n o e v i d e n c e th a t I w a s n o t i n th e D e p a r t m e n t ,

Page 154 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M a n n e k r a g , th e s a m e

payroll system that has been

paying

me

t h r o u g h o u t p a i d m e in D e c e m b e r.
CHAIRPERSON:
MR MANYI:

I t h i n k t h a t w o u ld b e i m p o r t a n t i f y o u h a v e g o t t h a t.

I c a n s h o w y o u C h a ir, r i g h t h e r e .

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u Mr M a n y i m y q u e s t io n w a s i n f a c t w h e t h e r,

in D e c e m b e r 2 0 1 0 y o u h a d n o k n o w l e d g e t h a t y o u r p o s i t io n a t th e
D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r h a d b e e n te r m in a t e d ?
M R M A N Y I:

N o t a t a l l, n o t o n ly i n D e c e m b e r t h r o u g h o u t . T h i s n o t i o n

a b o u t te r m i n a ti o n C h a ir p e r s o n I h e a r it fr o m t h i s C o m m i s s io n t o b e
10

honest.

My

u n d e r s t a n d in g

th r o u g h o u t

has

been

p r e c a u ti o n a r y

s u s p e n s i o n a n d I h a v e n o e v i d e n c e t o t h e c o n tr a r y.

A s I s a y th e

[i n d is t in c t] w a s t h e p a y m e n t s o D e c e m b e r I g o t my m o n e y, N o v e m b e r I
g o t m y m o n e y a n d D e c e m b e r I g o t my m o n e y a n d a ll t h a t a n d J a n u a r y
o n e g o t p a id la t e b u t g o t p a i d , s o t h e r e is n o o n e m o n th w h e r e I d id n o t
g e t a s a l a r y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Mr M a n y i y o u r e v id e n c e in r e l a ti o n to th e l e t t e r t h a t

y o u ’v e s e e n b y M i n is t e r – fo r m e r M i n i s t e r M d la d la n a d a t e d t h e 2 9 t h o f
O c t o b e r 2 0 1 0 , c a n y o u g i v e u s y o u r e v i d e n c e o n th a t , d id y o u e v e r
r e c e i v e t h a t le t t e r ?
20

MR MANYI:

N o I s a w i t f o r t h e f ir s t t i m e , li k e I s a i d i n t h a t th in g ,

w h a t e v e r I ’v e s a id i n th a t r e s p o n s e I s ti c k w i t h i t . I s a w i t fr o m t h e
Commission.
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a n y i d i d y o u e m p l o y t h e s e r v ic e s o f l a w y e r s i n

y o u r d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s ?
MR MANYI:

Ye s .

Page 155 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
ADV HOFMEYR:
MR MANYI:

Who were they?

I th in k , Th e m b e la n a a n d A d v o c a te Vu y a n i G e n w a n a .

ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u , I ’ d li k e t o th e n t a k e y o u t o a d o c u m e n t i t

is i n N N 5 a n d i t c o m m e n c e s a t p a g e 2 9 0 , y o u ’l l s e e N N 5 o n y o u r r i g h t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Ms H o f m e y r I s e e t h a t w e a r e a t h a l f a m i n u te t o 4

o ’c l o c k , I’ m q u i t e h a p p y to s i t l o n g e r i f t h a t s u i ts e v e r y b o d y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON:

M r M a n y i w o u ld i t b e f in e w i t h y o u i f w e s it b e y o n d 4

o ’c l o c k ?
10

MR MANYI:

J a I’ m e a s y.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u h a v e n o p r o b le m o k a y s o l e t ’s c o n t i n u e a n d s e e

how far we can go.
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u C h a ir, M r M a n y i a t p a g e 2 9 0 a p p e a r s t o

b e a l e tt e r t h a t c o m p r is e s f o u r p a g e s t o 2 9 3 a n d a p p e a r s t o b e a l e t t e r
b e a r in g y o u r s i g n a t u r e d a t e d t h e 1 5 t h o f N o v e m b e r 2 0 1 0 w r i t te n t o Mr
B a lo y i , h a v e y o u – d o y o u r e c a l l t h is l e t te r ?
M R M A N Y I:

I d o n ’ t r e c a ll th is l e t te r b u t I c a n s e e m y s i g n a t u r e , t h i s is

w h y C h a ir i t’s i m p o r t a n t t o g e t d o c u m e n ts b e f o r e h a n d s o t h a t s u r p r i s e s
lik e th e s e a r e n o t s p r u n g o n a p e r s o n .
20

CHAIRPERSON:

Ye s .

ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u c o n f ir m t h a t it ’s y o u r s i g n a tu r e a t p a g e 2 9 3 ?

CHAIRPERSON:

W e l l h e m ig h t n e e d t o r e a d i t t o r e f r e s h h i s m e m o r y.

ADV HOFMEYR:

Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON:

W e c a n d o o n e o f tw o t h i n g s , I d o n ’ t k n o w w h e th e r

w e w o u l d f in is h a n y w a y w i t h h is e v id e n c e t o d a y b u t i f w e w o u l d n ’ t fi n i s h

Page 156 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
a n d i t ’s w i th in h is p l a n to b e a v a il a b l e t o m o r r o w h e c o u ld g e t c h a n c e
overnight to reflect on it and we take it from there.

M r M a n y i h o w is

y o u r s it u a ti o n in t e r m s o f if w e d o n ’ t fi n i s h t o d a y ?
MR MANYI:

N o t h a t ’s f in e C h a ir I c a n c o m e t o m o r r o w.

CHAIRPERSON:

Yo u c o u l d c o m e b a c k , o k a y n o t h a t ’s fi n e .

If you

n e e d m o r e t i m e to l o o k a t th is le t t e r b e f o r e y o u g iv e a n a n s w e r w e
c o u l d s k ip i t f o r n o w a n d t h e n la t e r o n o r to m o r r o w m o r n in g w e c o u l d
d e a l w it h i t , b u t if y o u a b le t o d e a l w i t h i t t h a t - t h a t w o u ld b e f in e .
M R M A N Y I : J a , C h a ir. I - I n e e d t o r e a d i t C h a ir. S o …
10

C H A I R P E R S O N : Yo u n e e d t o r e a d i t .
M R M A N Y I : S o I th i n k to m o r r o w w i ll b e f in e t o r e s p o n d to it .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y. M s H o f m e y r is t h a t f i n e w i t h y o u ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C e r ta i n ly C h a ir.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Then let us move - if we may to a further aspect in

r e l a ti o n t o t h e c h a r g e s t h a t y o u u n d e r s t o o d t o b e a ll e g a t io n s a t th e
ti m e .

W h e n y o u r e s p o n d e d to t h e C o m m i s s io n ’s q u e s t i o n s a b o u t

c h a r g e s y o u r r e s p o n s e is c o n ta i n e d a t p a g e 3 8 o f N N 2 . C a n y o u p l e a s e
c a l l th a t u p i n fr o n t o f y o u ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y. W h a t p a g e d i d y o u s a y ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : A p o lo g ie s C h a ir. I t is N N 2 a n d i t is p a g e 3 8 - 3 - 8 .
CHAIRPERSON:

O k a y.

Thank you.

Is - i s t h e r e n o a ir c o n in t h is

venue?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I a m s u r e w e w il l b e a s s i s t e d .
CHAIRPERSON:

There must be - there must be an air con.

Page 157 of 179

I think

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
s o m e b o d y w il l a t t e n d to it . O k a y. T h a n k y o u . Yo u s a id 3 - 8 ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : 3 - 8 - 3 - 8 C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d j u s t t o g iv e y o u th e b e n e fi t o f th e q u e s t i o n s t h a t
t h e C o m m i s s io n a s k e d t o w h ic h y o u r p a r a g r a p h 7 . 2 is a n a n s w e r. C h a ir
ju s t f o r t h e r e c o r d t h i s a p p e a r s a t p a g e 1 2 0 . I d o n o t s u g g e s t t h a t y o u
a n d M r M a n y i n e e d t o g o t h e r e , b u t a t N N 2 p a g e 1 2 1 is th e q u e s t i o n 7 . 2
t o w h i c h y o u a r e r e s p o n d in g . T h e q u e s t io n w a s :
“ W h a t w e r e t h e c h a r g e s a g a in s t y o u ? ”
10

A n d Mr M a n y i c a n y o u p l e a s e in d ic a t e th e a n s w e r t h a t y o u g iv e ?
MR MANYI: On 7.2?
ADV HOFMEYR: Correct.
M R M A N Y I : J a . I s a i d i t i s a li t a n y o f f r iv o l o u s tr u m p e d u p o p e r a t i o n a l
is s u e s . D e ta il s a v a il a b l e a t th e S t a te A t t o r n e y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o y o u in d ic a te d th e S t a te A t t o r n e y m i g h t b e a b le t o
a s s is t i n r e l a t i o n t o t h o s e c h a r g e s . T h e - th e C o m m i s s io n h a s f u r th e r
in v e s t i g a t e d a s w e d o i n r e l a t i o n t o a ll i n f o r m a ti o n t h a t w e o b ta i n fr o m
w i t n e s s e s a n d p e r s o n s i n t e r v i e w e d a n d s o w h a t I w o u l d l ik e t o ta k e y o u
t o i f I m a y is a d o c u m e n t i n N N 5 .

20

I w a n t t o s t a r t p r io r to t h e d o c u m e n t r e l a ti n g s p e c i f ic a l ly t o
the charges to a document …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h a t y o u w il l f i n d a t p a g e 2 …
C H A I R P E R S O N : I a m s o r r y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : O f E X H I B I T N N 5 C h a ir.

Page 158 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
CHAIRPERSON:

I a m s o r r y M s H o f m e y r.

NN5.

O k a y.

I have got it

n o w. W h a t p a g e ?
ADV HOFMEYR: Page 2.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h is is a l e t t e r o n i ts f a c e b e tw e e n t h e R o y a l

N o r w e g i a n E m b a s s y a n d A m b a s s a d o r M a k h u b e l a . D o y o u s e e th a t ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : P le a s e i n d ic a t e t h e d a t e o f t h e l e t t e r f o r t h e r e c o r d ?
MR MANYI: 12 March 2010.
10

A D V H O F M E Y R : Is th is a l e t t e r th a t y o u h a v e s e e n b e f o r e M r M a n y i?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . I t h i n k I h a v e s e e n t h i s l e tt e r.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Th a n k y o u . T h e l e t te r i n d ic a t e s in t h e fir s t p a r a g r a p h
that

C h r is ti a n - H il d e n

of

the

N o r w e g ia n

Embassy

is

w r i ti n g

to

A m b a s s a d o r M a k h u b e l a . H e w r i te s i n t h e f ir s t p a r a g r a p h :
“ I f e e l t h a t I s h o u ld w r i te t o y o u a s h e a d o f p r o to c o l
in

S o u th

r e l a ti o n s

A fr ic a
with

and

th e r e b y

embassies

on

r e s p o n s ib l e
a

m a t te r

th a t

for
is

s e n s i t iv e . T h i s is s u e is c o n t r a r y to N o r w e g i a n e t h i c
a n d o u r c o o p e r a t io n w i t h S o u t h A f r i c a . ”
20

M r M a n y i y o u i n d ic a t e d th a t y o u h a d s e e n t h is l e t te r b e f o r e .

W h a t is

t h e s e n s it iv e i s s u e t h a t i s r a is e d i n t h is l e t t e r ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . C h a ir i f I j u s t g o o n m e m o r y - if I j u s t g o o n m e m o r y a t
o n e p o in t I w a s s i t ti n g in m y o ff ic e - th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r a n d t h e n
I g e t a c a l l fr o m Vi c Va n Vu u r e n w h o I w o r k e d a l o t w i t h i n t h e B u s a
s p a c e b u s i n e s s u n i t in S o u t h A fr ic a . A t t h a t t i m e Vi c w a s w o r k i n g fo r

Page 159 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
I L O . S o Vi c c a ll s m e a n d h e s a y s d o m e a fa v o u r m a n .
T h e r e is t h is a m b a s s a d o r t h a t is h e r e . C a n y o u a c c o m m o d a t e
h i m ? H e w a n ts t o t a l k to t h e N e d l a c p e o p le - d e p a r t m e n t - t h e N e d la c
p a r t n e r s . T h e y w e r e o n e o f t h e m . T h e y a b o u t d e c e n t w o r k e r. S o c a n
you accommodate you?

T h e n I s a i d o k a y.

N o - n o p r o b le m .

He can

c o m e . S o th e n t h e - t h is N o r w e g i a n A m b a s s a d o r th e n c o m e s .
T h e n I g o a n d a t t e n d t o h i m a n d t h e n w e h a v e a d is c u s s i o n
a b o u t d e c e n t w o r k a n d a l l o f t h a t a n d th e n h e t h e n r a is e s a n i s s u e . H e
s a y s - h e s a y s N o r w e g i a n c o m p a n ie s h a v e g o t a p r o b l e m w i t h B E E . S o
10

t h e n I s a i d t o h i m o h , o k a y. I c a n a s s is t w i t h t h a t . W i th th o s e - w i t h with BEE.
I t is a s u b j e c t I u n d e r s t a n d v e r y w e ll a s i t w e r e a n d a t t h e
b a c k o f t h a t C h a ir th e r e w a s in t h e c o u n tr y - i t i s s ti ll th e r e I t h in k e v e n
t o d a y - s o m e t h in g c a ll e d B E E A d v is o r y C o u n c i l w h ic h a d v is e s t h e
P r e s i d e n t . N o w t h e M in is t e r o f L a b o u r w a s a m e m b e r o f th is - o f t h i s
c o u n c i l . A s t h e D G I w a s h is a l t e r n a t e i n t h is c o u n c il .
S o f r o m w h e r e I a m s i t ti n g e v e n w h il e I w a s a D G o f L a b o u r
b u t b e c a u s e o f t h a t B E E A d v i s o r y C o u n c i l I s a w it a s p a r t o f m y
r e s p o n s i b i li ty a s w e l l a n d a l s o b e i n g a S o u th A f r ic a n to - to b e i n v o l v e d

20

in B E E a n d if I c a n h e l p a n y b o d y t o u n d e r s t a n d B E E I w o u l d d o t h a t a n d
t u r n s o u t a t th e e n d o f a l l - o f i t a l l th a t th i s a m b a s s a d o r t o o k t h e w r o n g
e n d o f th a t o ff e r t o a s s is t h i m a n d h e tr ie d t o c o n j u r e it a s s o m e k i n d o f
a c o m m e r c i a l a c ti v i ty o f s o r t s t h a t I w a s t r y i n g t o s o li c i t fr o m h i m a n d
s o o n a n d t h e n t h e r e w e r e a ll t h e s e l e t te r s w r i t te n t o a w h o le r a n g e o f
people.

Page 160 of 179

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
I t h i n k e v e n M i n is t e r M d la d l a n a w a s i n v o l v e d .

E v e n th e

P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r w a s i n v o lv e d a n d I t h i n k t h e r e w a s a n in v e s t i g a t io n b y
t h e w a y i n to t h is m a t t e r a n d - a n d t h is a m b a s s a d o r w a s t h e n a s k e d t o
p r o v i d e m o r e in f o r m a t io n a n d I t h i n k th is c o n c l u d e d t h r o u g h t h e P u b l ic
P r o t e c t o r n o t h a v in g t o g o a n y f u r th e r, b e c a u s e t h e r e w a s - t h e r e w a s
n o m o r e in f o r m a t io n .
T h e r e c o u ld n o t h a v e b e e n a n y m o r e in f o r m a t io n C h a ir
b e c a u s e i t w a s a m e e ti n g t h a t it - it is s o m e t h i n g t h a t h a d s t a r t e d a n d
fi n i s h e d i n a m e e t i n g a n d t h e r e w e r e g o o d i n t e n t io n s o n m y p a r t t o
10

a s s is t t h e s e c o m p a n ie s .
t o d a y.

I t i s s o m e t h i n g I d o n o t a p o l o g is e f o r e v e n

T h a t i f a n y b o d y w a s t o c o m e I - I w o u l d d o t h a t i f - e v e n in

h i n d s i g h t i f o n e w a s t o s a y in h i n d s ig h t s h o u l d h e h a v e m a d e t h a t o ff e r
it is d e fi n it e y e s .
I w o u l d h a v e d o n e t h a t e v e n t o d a y. S o I h a v e g o t n o th i n g t o
lo o k b a c k a n d b e a s h a m e d o f a n d I k e e p s a y i n g t o p e o p l e i f a n y o n e c a n
s a y t o m e I h a v e b e e n t o a n y N o r w e g i a n c o m p a n y.

Let that company

s t a n d u p . I h a v e n e v e r b e e n t o a n y N o r w e g i a n c o m p a n y. S o t h e r e w a s
n o - t h e r e w a s n o s h e n a n ig a n i n v o lv e d . A l th o u g h th a t w a s t h e t a k e o f
t h e a m b a s s a d o r.
20

S o t h e a m b a s s a d o r w a s t o ta ll y w r o n g i n h e r ( s ic ) s u m m a r y o f
w h a t h e th o u g h t w a s h a p p e n in g a n d i n d e e d i f t h e r e w a s a n y s e m b la n c e
o f tr u th i n h is c o n t e n t io n h e s h o u l d h a v e c o m e b a c k w i t h a b i t m o r e
e v i d e n c e , b u t h e f a i le d t o d o t h a t . E v e n t o d a y I c h a l l e n g e w h o e v e r to
b r i n g m o r e e v id e n c e t o t r y a n d r e v iv e t h a t s to r y. T h e y a r e n o t g o in g to
c o m e u p w it h a n y t h in g b e c a u s e th e r e i s n o t h i n g .

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
ADV HOFMEYR:

T h a n k y o u M r M a n y i f o r t h a t e x p la n a ti o n .

Yo u

d e s c r ib e - l e t m e j u s t a s k f ir s t . D i d th is i s s u e f o r m p a r t o f t h e c h a r g e s
t h a t y o u f a c e d i n t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s ?
M R M A N Y I : I th i n k s o . J a .
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u d e s c r i b e t h o s e c h a r g e s a s fr iv o l o u s , o p e r a t i o n a l
is s u e s . W h y w a s t h is a fr iv o lo u s , o p e r a ti o n a l is s u e ?
MR MANYI:

I t i s a fr i v o l o u s , o p e r a ti o n a l is s u e C h a ir, b e c a u s e i f y o u

h a v e - t h e r e is n o s u b s t a n c e to t h i s . I t i s s o m e b o d y w h o s e E n g l is h is
n o t e v e n u p to s c r a tc h . S o m e b o d y t h a t m i g h t h a v e m is u n d e r s to o d th e
10

w h o le t h in g a n d a ll t h a t .

So to be charged for trying to do - to be a

g o o d c i t iz e n o f t h e c o u n tr y is fr i v o l o u s . I t is a c t u a l ly m a lic i o u s .
M a y b e fr i v o lo u s is a s o f t t e r m . I t is a m a l i c io u s c h a r g e f o r a a D G t h a t is tr y i n g t o h e lp a n o u ts id e r in t h e c o u n tr y t o s a y t h is is h o w I
c a n a s s is t y o u u n d e r th e la w s o f th is c o u n tr y a n d t h e n s o m e b o d y
c h a r g e s y o u f o r t h a t . Th a t is q u i te m a l ic i o u s . I - I h o l d th a t c o n te n ti o n
e v e n t o d a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u f o c u s e d o n t h e a s p e c t o f fr iv o l o u s . W h y is i t a n
o p e r a ti o n a l is s u e ?
MR MANYI:
20

I t is a n o p e r a ti o n a l - i t i s a d a y t o d a y t h i n g t h a t

h a p p e n e d . A n o p e r a ti o n a l is s u e f o r m e a r e d a y t o d a y th i n g s . I t i s n o t
lik e p a r t o f t h e s tr a t e g y w a s to d o - w e th o u g h t o f th e s tr a t e g i c i s s u e s .
T h a t is a d a y t o d a y th i n g t h a t h a p p e n e d in t h e r u n o f t h e m il l . W h e n
y o u o p e r a t e a s a - a s a D G y o u g e t a p p r o a c h e d b y d i ff e r e n t p e o p l e . S o
it w a s i n a d a y ’s w o r k . Th a t i s w h a t o p e r a t io n a l ( in d i s ti n c t) fo r m e .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th e l e t te r fr o m th e N o r w e g i a n A m b a s s a d o r a ll e g e s

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t h a t - y o u w i ll fi n d t h is a t p a g e 3 C h a ir a n d M r M a n y i - t h a t - a n d t h i s is
a t t h e s e c o n d p a r a g r a p h o f th e p a g e .

T h e y h a v e in tr o d u c e d th e

m e e ti n g t h a t th e y h a d w i th y o u a n d t h e f a c t t h a t t h e t o p i c w o u l d b e t h e
d e c e n t w o r k a g e n d a a n d t h e n r e c o r d i n t h e l e t te r :
“ I t w a s t h e r e f o r e t o ta ll y u n e x p e c t e d t h a t Mr M a n y i
u s e d t h is m e e ti n g t o f u r t h e r i n te r e s t th a t a r e n o t
t h o s e o f h is d e p a r t m e n t o r a p p l ic a b le to t h e d e c e n t
work agenda.
e x p e r t is e
10

on

Norwegian

H e d id th is b y o ff e r i n g h is o w n
BEE

as

businesses.

a

c o n s u l ta n t
We

felt

s e r v ic e

th a t

he

to
was

f u r th e r in g in t e r e s ts t h a t w e r e n o t r e l a t e d t o h i s
p o s i ti o n a s D i r e c t o r - G e n e r a l .

F o r th is r e a s o n it i s

n o w u n c l e a r h o w o u r f u t u r e r e l a ti o n s h o u ld b e
h a n d l e d , b e c a u s e w e d o s e e c o o p e r a ti o n w i t h t h e
D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r a s i m p e r a t iv e . ”
T h a t d o e s n o t r e a d t o m e a s a d e s c r ip t i o n o f a n o p e r a t io n
is s u e M r M a n y i.
MR MANYI: Of what?
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

D o y o u a c c e p t t h a t fr o m th e p o in t o f v i e w o f t h e

N o r w e g i a n E m b a s s y i t w a s n o t a n o p e r a t i o n a l is s u e ?
MR MANYI:

C h a ir th is i s j u s t a n o p e r a ti o n a l is s u e a n d b y t h e w a y I

t h i n k h a v i n g - i f - i f y o u r e a d w h a t - i f - i f y o u t a k e w h a t h a s ju s t b e e n
r e a d o u t f o r s o m e b o d y w h e n y o u a r e o ffe r in g t o h e l p t o t h e n tu r n y o u
a r o u n d a n d m a k e y o u a c o n s u l t a n t a n d a ll o f t h a t a n d w a n t y o u t o - it is
a c t u a ll y a b s u r d C h a ir p e r s o n .

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A c tu a l ly i t is q u it e a b s u r d t h a t h e r e y o u a r e tr y i n g to h e lp a n d
s o m e b o d y s a y s y o u a r e a c o n s u lt a n t a n d i t i s - I a m - I m e a n d i d I e v e n
g iv e a n i n v o ic e . D i d I e v e n s a y t h is is h o w m u c h i t is g o in g t o c o s t y o u
f o r m e t o d o t h is ?

W h y is h e m a k i n g t h i s a c o n s u l t a n c y is s u e ?

n o t e v e n ta lk m o n e y w i t h th is - w i th t h i s a m b a s s a d o r.

I d id

Th is is to t a l ly

p r e p o s t e r o u s f o r t h e m t o m a k e t h is k i n d o f c o n c l u s i o n .
C H A I R P E R S O N : W e ll m a y b e w h a t y o u - y o u s h o u ld d o M r M a n y i is t o
tr y a n d c a p t u r e w h a t th e a m b a s s a d o r s a id th e p r o b l e m w a s o r w h a t
a s s is t a n c e i f a n y h e w a s a s k in g y o u t o p r o v i d e .
10

W h e t h e r - w h e th e r

y o u r s e l f o r G o v e r n m e n t o r th e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r w h a t h e w a s w h a t h e a c t u a l ly w a n t e d a n d w h a t y o u r r e s p o n s e w a s i n te r m s o f w h a t
is t h e o ff e r.
I t h in k y o u m a d e r e f e r e n c e t o o ff e r.

W h a t w a s th e o ffe r in

c o n c r e te t e r m s t h a t y o u t o l d h i m ? S o t h a t w e c a n u n d e r s ta n d w h a t th e
e x c h a n g e b e t w e e n t h e tw o o f y o u w e r e . I k n o w i t h a s b e e n a n u m b e r o f
years …
MR MANYI: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t y o u - y o u d o th e b e s t .
MR MANYI:
20

No.

I t is q u i t e a n a liv e is s u e .

T h is m e d i a r e m in d s m e

a b o u t t h i s a ll t h e t i m e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
MR MANYI:

S o I a m q u i t e a li v e t o t h e i s s u e s .

Yo u s e e C h a ir t h i s is

w h y I w a s a ls o e x p l a in in g t h e b r o a d b a s e d c o u n c i l t h i n g , b e c a u s e t h i s
a m b a s s a d o r d id n o t e v e n u n d e r s ta n d th a t - d i d n o t u n d e r s t a n d t h a t
a l t h o u g h I w a s a D G o f L a b o u r.

I w a s a n a l t e r n a t e t o a b i g a d v is o r y

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
c o u n c i l b y v ir t u e o f b e in g a D G .
A t t h a t ti m e t h e r e w a s n o D e p u ty M i n i s t e r a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t
o f L a b o u r. S o - s o th e r e f o r e fr o m w h e r e I s i t i t w a s w i t h i n m y b r ie f a s b y t h e w a y e v e n i f C h a ir p e r s o n - e v e n i f i t w a s n o t w i t h i n m y b r i e f t h e r e
w a s a b s o l u t e ly n o t h i n g w r o n g w i t h m e a s a p e r s o n s a y i n g I a m g o i n g t o
a s s is t y o u . I f I h a d s a id t o h i m t h is is w h a t i t i s g o i n g t o c o s t y o u .
T h e n y o u a r e t a k in g .

This is a kind of thing - by the way

d u r i n g t h o s e ti m e s C h a ir p e r s o n I w a s a c t u a lly o n m y p r i m e o n th e s e
is s u e s o f tr a n s f o r m a t i o n .
10

I w a s d o in g th e s e t a l k s fr e e ly.

If one can

G o o g le m y p r o fi le a r o u n d t h o s e t i m e s t h is - t h i s w a s my s p a c e . I t w a s
e i t h e r e m p lo y m e n t e q u i ty. I w o u l d g iv e t a l k s . I f i t w a s B E E .
I w o u ld b e g i v i n g ta lk s . S o i f y o u h a v e a - a c o m p a n y h e r e
that does not understand this thing.
development of some of these quotes.
a m e n d m e n ts o f th e B E E A c t .

I m e a n I p a r ti c i p a t e d in th e
I h a v e p a r tic i p a t e d i n t h e s e

I t i s s o m e t h i n g I u n d e r s t a n d e x t r e m e ly

w e ll .
S o h e r e I a m o ff e r in g a s e r v ic e t o t h i s - t h i s p e r s o n a n d
s o m e h o w h e c o n j u r e s th a t u p to s o m e t h i n g n e g a t iv e . I t h i n k i t i s a - i t
is q u i t e a s h a m e .
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : B u t j u s t g o b a c k t o a r tic u l a ti n g w h a t h e - h e s a i d h i s
p r o b le m w a s o r w h a t th e p r o b le m o f N o r w e g i a n …
MR MANYI: His …
CHAIRPERSON:

Companies was and what was he asking you to do

a b o u t i t?
MR MANYI: No. No. He …

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : If h e w a s a s k i n g y o u t o d o a n y t h i n g a b o u t i t .
M R M A N Y I : O k a y. H e - h e w a s s a y i n g t h e p r o b l e m o f t h e N o r w e g ia n
p e o p l e is - o f t h e N o r w e g i a n c o m p a n i e s i s b r o a d b a s e d B E E . T h a t w a s
- that is how he (intervenes).
CHAIRPERSON: He was saying they have a problem with BEE?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : T h e y h a v e a p r o b le m w i th B E E .
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
10

M R M A N Y I : I m p le m e n t in g B E E .
CHAIRPERSON: Oh.
MR MANYI: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : D i d h e n e e d a n e x p l a n a ti o n o f h o w i t w o r k s a n d s o o n
or as you understood what or they did understand what - what it means,
b u t t h e y w e r e o p p o s e d to i t .

T h e - t h e N o r w e g i a n c o m p a n ie s a s y o u

u n d e r s t o o d w h a t h e s a id t o y o u .
M R M A N Y I : M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g C h a ir p e r s o n o f m o s t c o m p a n ie s t h a t a r e
in t e r n a t io n a l t h a t c o m e to t h e c o u n tr y.

T h e y d o n o t e v e n u n d e r s ta n d

s o m e o f t h e s e c o n c e p ts t h a t a r e w i t h i n B E E .
20

At the time BEE had

s e v e n e le m e n ts . As t o w h a t is i t th a t th e c o m p a n y n e e d e d t o d o . S o
t h a t w h e n i t g e ts r a t e d it c a n g e t a p r o p e r s c o r e .
W h a t a r e t h e t h in g s t h a t i t n e e d e d t o d o ?
i m p l e m e n ta t io n o f B E E .

S o t h a t is c a l l e d

S o w h a t I - w h a t I w o u ld h a v e d o n e f o r

in s t a n c e is t o h a v e g o n e to th e m to e x p l a in to th e m t h a t i n y o u r
procurement make sure that when you procure you also procure from

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
B l a c k p e o p l e . M a k e s u r e th a t y o u h a v e g o t a n e n t e r p r i s e d e v e l o p m e n t
program.
M a k e s u r e t h a t - y o u k n o w a ll o f t h o s e t h i n g s . A ll o f t h o s e
e l e m e n ts th a t a r e t h e r e a n d s o o n .

S o t h a t is w h a t I w o u l d h a v e

e x p l a i n e d to th e m . To s a y t h is i s h o w t h i s th in g w o r k s . I t is m e a n t to
e n s u r e t h a t t h e r e i s m o r e i n c l u s i o n o f Bl a c k p e o p l e i n t o t h e e c o n o my
w h ic h w a s n o t a c t u a ll y t o o d is t a n t fr o m w h a t a r e th e o b je c tiv e s o f
decent work as it were.
S o i t w a s n o t e v e n t o d is t a n t fr o m i t .
10

S o I s t il l d o n o t

u n d e r s t a n d w h y h e h a d a n is s u e w it h m y i n p u t .
CHAIRPERSON:

Th a n k y o u a n d - a n d y o u r o ffe r w a s i t a n o ffe r to

e x p l a i n t o th e s e c o m p a n i e s w h a t B E E m e a n s ?

What its elements are

and how it should be implemented?
M R M A N Y I : C o r r e c t C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: HM.
M R M A N Y I : R e m e m b e r C h a ir a t t h e ti m e I w a s a fu ll ti m e e m p l o y e e o f
G o v e r n m e n t . E v e n i f I h a d a n i n t e r e s t o f d o i n g c o n s u l ta n c y a n y t h i n g o n
t h e s id e I w o u ld h a v e h a d t o d e c l a r e t h a t .

I would have to get

p e r m is s io n fr o m th a t . T h e r e is a w h o l e p r o c e s s a r o u n d t h a t a n d I h a v e
20

n o t b e e n fo u n d t o b e d o in g p r i v a t e b u s i n e s s d u r i n g t h a t - t h a t t i m e .
S o i t i s n o t s o m e th i n g t h a t I w o u ld h a v e d o n e , b u t g iv e n a
c h a n c e I w o u l d h a v e g o n e t o th o s e c o m p a n i e s t o e d u c a t e th e m a b o u t
h o w t h i s th i n g w o r k s a n d a s I s a y C h a ir e v e n t o d a y I m a k e n o a p o lo g ie s
a b o u t t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a n k y o u . M s H o f m e y r.

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A D V H O F M E Y R : M r M a n y i t h a n k y o u f o r y o u r e x p l a n a t io n o f w h a t y o u
u n d e r s t o o d t o b e s a i d t o y o u in t h a t m e e ti n g a n d w h a t y o u w e r e o ff e r i n g
in th e c o u r s e o f th a t m e e t i n g . I w o u l d li k e to f o c u s o n w h a t is r e fl e c t e d
in t h is le t t e r a s b e i n g t h e N o r w e g i a n r e p r e s e n t a tiv e ’s u n d e r s t a n d in g ,
b e c a u s e t h e y s e e m t o h a v e t a k e n th is is s u e v e r y s e r i o u s l y.

Do you

a g r e e w i t h t h a t?
M R M A N Y I : I n o t e th a t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : T h e y u n d e r s t o o d th e c o n d u c t i n t h a t m e e ti n g to b e a n
o ffe r fr o m y o u t o u t il is e y o u r o w n e x p e r t i s e o n a c o n s u l t a n t b a s i s , b u t
10

t o fu r th e r y o u r o w n i n t e r e s ts a n d n o t th o s e r e l a t e d to y o u r p o s i t io n a s
D ir e c t o r - G e n e r a l .

D o y o u a c c e p t th a t t h a t w a s th e i r u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f

what happened?
M R M A N Y I : I a c c e p t t h a t t h a t w a s th e i r i n c o r r e c t u n d e r s t a n d in g .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Yo u i n d ic a te d t h a t t h is w a s a fr iv o l o u s m a t t e r. T h a t

w a s t h e a n s w e r y o u g a v e t o th e q u e s ti o n a b o u t t h i s b e i n g o f t h e
charges.
MR MANYI:

S a y a g a in .

S o r r y.

S o m e ( in d i s t i n c t) .

Can you repeat

that?
ADV HOFMEYR:
20

Apologies.

Yo u d e s c r i b e d t h is a s a fr i v o lo u s is s u e .

Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . C o r r e c t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A r e y o u a w a r e h o w t h i s i s s u e w a s p e r c e iv e d b y o th e r
a r m s o f G o v e r n m e n t a n d w h e t h e r t h e y s a w i t a s fr i v o l o u s o r s e r io u s ?
MR MANYI:

L o o k I th i n k b y d e fi n i t io n o t h e r G o v e r n m e n t p e o p l e t h a t

a r e s e e in g it fr o m a d is ta n c e p u r e ly b e c a u s e o f w h o r a i s e s i t .

Page 168 of 179

They

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
m i g h t s e e i t a s a s e r i o u s is s u e - a d i p l o m a tic is s u e a n d a l l o f th a t . S o
f o r th e m i t m i g h t b e s e r i o u s , b u t f o r m e w h o i s d ir e c tl y i n v o lv e d y o u c a n
s e e t h e f r iv o li ty in it a n d s o o n .
S o th e fa c t t h a t fr o m o t h e r p e o p l e t h a t a r e l o o k i n g o u t s i d e i n
t h e y s e e i t a s s o m e th i n g e ls e v e r s u s a p e r s o n th a t w a s d ir e c t ly fa c i n g
t h is t h i n g . W e h a v e g o t t w o d i ffe r e n t p e r s p e c tiv e s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th a n k y o u .

T h e - t h e f a c t t h a t o t h e r s to o k i t a s

s e r io u s is c e r ta in ly b o r n e o u t b y t h e n e x t l e t te r in E X H I B I T N N 5 . Yo u
w i ll fi n d t h a t a t p a g e 4 . Th a t i s a l e t te r b e t w e e n t h e C h a ir p e r s o n o f th e
10

P u b l ic S e r v ic e C o m m i s s i o n o f S o u t h A f r ic a a n d M in is t e r M d l a d l a n a
d a t e d 2 8 M a y 2 0 1 0 . I s t h i s a le t t e r y o u h a v e s e e n b e f o r e ?
MR MANYI: I cannot recall it.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r ta in ly a n d p l e a s e fe e l fr e e t o i n d i c a t e i f y o u w o u ld
lik e a n y f u r t h e r t i m e t o c o n s i d e r i t , b u t I u n d e r s t a n d y o u r a n s w e r t o b e
y o u d o n o t r e c a ll i t .

I w o u ld j u s t li k e to p ic k u p a t t h e s e c o n d o r th e

t h ir d p a r a g r a p h o f t h e l e t te r th e r e i n r e l a t i o n to th e c h a r a c t e r is a t i o n o f
t h is is s u e a s fr iv o l o u s o r s e r i o u s .
T h e C h a ir p e r s o n t h e r e o n t h e f a c e o f t h is le t t e r w r i t e s t o
M i n is t e r M d la d la n a a n d s a y s :
20

“ G iv e n t h e s e r i o u s n e s s o f t h e a l le g a t i o n s m a d e b y
t h e N o r w e g i a n E m b a s s y th e P F C is o f t h e v i e w t h a t
y o u s h o u l d e lic i t s t a t e m e n t s fr o m th e p a r t i e s i n
a tt e n d a n c e a t th e m e e t i n g b e t w e e n t h e N o r w e g i a n
Embassy and Mr Manyi.

Where after Mr Manyi

s h o u l d b e g i v e n a n o p p o r tu n it y t o r e s p o n d in w r i t in g

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
t o t h e a l le g a ti o n s ( a p p l ic a t i o n o f t h e a u d i a l t e r a m
partem rule).”
M r M a n y i j u s t t o b e c l e a r o n y o u r e a r li e r t e s ti m o n y. Yo u d i d
in d i c a t e th a t th is p a r tic u la r a ll e g a ti o n fo r m e d o n e o f t h e c h a r g e s t h a t
y o u f a c e d i n t h e d is c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . O n e o f t h e a ll e g a t io n s . Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : A n d t h a t p r o c e s s w a s n e v e r c o m p le t e d ?
MR MANYI: No.
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

S o t h e r e w a s n o fi n d in g o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r in

r e l a ti o n t o t h is a l le g a ti o n ?
MR MANYI:

I t h in k t h e r e w a s - t h i s p a r ti c u l a r o n e . I th in k i t w e n t t o

t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c t o r ’s r e a l m . T h a t is w h y - t h a t is w h e r e i t w a s d e a l t
w i t h . S o w h e n th e P u b l ic Pr o t e c to r I t h i n k o n t h e - i t is a c t u a ll y a ll i n
t h e m e d ia a s t o i f o n e G o o g l e s t h i s w il l fi n d t h a t o n t h e fi n a l a n a l y s is
t h e P u b li c Pr o t e c to r w a s n o t g i v e n a ll t h e e v i d e n c e th a t s h e r e q u ir e d t o
m a k e a - a fi n d i n g . S o t h a t is m y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f w h e r e i t g o t l e ft .
ADV HOFMEYR:

M r M a n y i t h e P u b lic P r o t e c to r ’s R e p o r t i n r e l a ti o n to

t h e c o m p l a in t a g a i n s t y o u w a s d a t e d S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 . A r e y o u a w a r e
of that?
20

M R M A N Y I : I k n o w a b o u t th a t o n e . J a , b u t it w a s o n s o m e th i n g e ls e .
Wa s i t n o t ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : Th a t o n e r e l a t e d t o c o m p l a i n ts o f A d v o c a t e H o ff m a n .
T h e y i n c l u d e d a n a l le g e d c o n fl ic t o f i n t e r e s t b e t w e e n - w e ll g iv e n y o u r
p o s i ti o n a t B F M a n d y o u r a p p o i n t m e n t a s D G o f L a b o u r, b u t w i th i n t h a t
t h e r e i s a t l e a s t a r e fe r e n c e t o th e c o m p la i n t o f t h e N o r w e g ia n

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
E m b a s s y. Is th a t t h e o n e y o u w e r e r e f e r r i n g t o ?
M R M A N Y I : Ye s . T h a t is c o r r e c t C h a ir.
A D V H O F M E Y R : O k a y. W h e n y o u g o a w a y t h i s e v e n in g th a t f u l l r e p o r t
h a s b e e n i n c l u d e d in N N 5 . S o y o u c a n r e f r e s h y o u r m e m o r y a b o u t i t. I
do

not

t h in k

it

is

disputed

th a t

that

report

was

issued

in

S e p te m b e r 2 0 11 . S o I j u s t w a n t t o g e t u s c l e a r i n t i m e . Th a t is a ft e r
y o u h a v e m o v e d t o G C I S . I s t h a t c o r r e c t?
M R M A N Y I : J a . T h a t is c o r r e c t . Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

A n d t h e d is c ip li n a r y p r o c e s s d id n o t r e s o lv e t h is

a l le g a ti o n f o r o r a g a i n s t y o u . C o r r e c t?
M R M A N Y I : C a n y o u j u s t r e p e a t t h a t? T h e r e is a n e c h o .
ADV HOFMEYR:

A p o l o g ie s .

Th e d i s c i p l in a r y p r o c e s s t h a t y o u w e r e

e n g a g e d i n w h il e y o u w e r e a t t h e D e p a r t m e n t o f L a b o u r d i d n o t m a k e a
fi n d i n g f o r o r a g a i n s t y o u i n r e l a t i o n t o t h is a ll e g a t i o n ?
MR MANYI: Not on anything.
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
M R M A N Y I : I t w a s e v e n t h e w h o l e - th e w h o l e - i n f a c t …
CHAIRPERSON: On any of the charges?
M R M A N Y I : O n a n y o f th e c h a r g e s C h a ir.
20

CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
MR MANYI:

Th e r e w a s n o fi n d i n g o n a n y - th e r e w a s n o - i n f a c t o n

t h a t le t t e r - o n t h a t p r o b a t io n le t t e r w h ic h e v e r y b o d y s e e m s t o t h in k is a
t e r m in a ti o n l e t te r a n d y o u c a n d e a l w i th t h a t w h e n w e g e t to i t f o r m e r
M i n is t e r M d la d la n a a ls o m a k e s r e f e r e n c e t o t h e fa c t t h a t th e r e a r e
a l le g a ti o n s th a t h a v e n o t b e e n - t h e r e is a - t h e r e i s a w o r d i n g th a t h e

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
is u s i n g .
I f I c a n j u s t - o h . H e s a y s - i f y o u g o t o t h a t l e t te r. I d o n o t
k n o w w h e r e i t is o n y o u r f il e s t h e r e .

Second page, paragraph 4

s o m e w h e r e in t h e m i d d l e . H e s a y s :
“ A l t h o u g h n o d e c is io n h a s b e e n m a d e i n r e g a r d t o
t h e s e c h a r g e s i t i s c l e a r fr o m y o u r r e s p o n s e t h a t
they are not unfounded charges.”
B u t th e n h e c o n c l u d e s :
“ T h e y r e m a i n a ll e g a t i o n s o f a s e r i o u s n a t u r e . ”
So

10

that

is

the

thing

you

see.

in t e r c h a n g e a b le u s i n g c h a r g e s a n d a ll e g a ti o n s .

Ev en

-

even

he

is

It i s e x a c tl y w h e r e I

am.
A D V H O F M E Y R : S o a s a t t h e d a t e o f 2 F e b r u a r y 2 0 11 w h e n y o u m o v e d
in t o t h e p o s i ti o n o f D G o f G C I S .

T h is i s s u e o f t h e a l le g a ti o n o f th e

Norwegian Ambassador had not been resolved?
M R M A N Y I : I d o n o t r e m e m b e r t h e d a t e s , b u t I j u s t - a n d t h e ti m e s a n d
s t u ff , b u t I j u s t k n o w t h a t a t o n e p o i n t th e r e w a s s o m e p r o n o u n c e m e n t
a b o u t - th a t s o r t o f c o n c l u d e s th e m a tt e r o n th e b a s is t h a t th e r e is n o
f u r th e r e v i d e n c e t h a t w a s g iv e n t o t h e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r.
20

A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : A s t o w h e n t h a t h a p p e n e d I a m n o t s o s u r e n o w.
ADV HOFMEYR:

W e ll th e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r ’s R e p o r t y o u c a n f in d i t i n

the same bundle - NN5 at page 1-1-1.
M R M A N Y I : O k a y. I w i ll r e a d i t t o n i g h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : It is d a t e d 2 7 S e p t e m b e r 2 0 11 . C o r r e c t ?

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M R M A N Y I : O k a y.
ADV HOFMEYR:

S o t h a t is a n u m b e r o f m o n th s a f t e r y o u h a d m o v e d

in t o G C I S . C o r r e c t ?
M R M A N Y I : J a . T h a t is c o r r e c t .
ADV HOFMEYR: Thank you.
M R M A N Y I : O n - o n t h o s e fi n d i n g s , b e c a u s e I a m j u s t s e e in g t h is o n l y
n o w I d o n o t s e e a n y t h i n g t h a t m a k e s a f i n d i n g o n th e N o r w e g i a n . D o
y o u s e e it ?
ADV HOFMEYR:
10

No.

I have not seen it.

So I was going to ask for

y o u r a s s is t a n c e o n t h a t , b e c a u s e y o u r r e f e r e n c e t o t h is b e i n g a m a t t e r
d e a lt w i th a n d d is p o s e d o f b y t h e P u b l ic P r o t e c t o r. O n m y r e a d in g o f
t h is r e p o r t t h e r e is a r e f e r e n c e t o t h e f a c t o f th e a ll e g a ti o n , b u t I h a v e
n o t s e e n a c t u a l fi n d i n g s o n i t .
S o m a y b e y o u c a n a s s is t u s i n t h a t r e g a r d .

I t m a y b e th a t

t h e r e w a s a n o t h e r r e p o r t o f w h ic h w e a r e n o t a w a r e .

Yo u d id m a k e

r e fe r e n c e t o t h i s P u b l ic Pr o te c to r R e p o r t a t y o u r m e e t i n g w i th th e
C o m m i s s i o n o n 2 1 O c to b e r a n d s o e ff o r ts w e r e m a d e to s e e k t o
e s t a b li s h w h ic h r e p o r t h a d b e e n p r o d u c e d b y t h e P u b lic P r o te c t o r, b u t i t
c o u l d b e th a t w e m is s e d a r e p o r t . S o w e w o u l d b e i n te r e s t e d in y o u r
20

a s s is t a n c e o n t h a t.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h a t f i n d in g t h a t is a t 8 . 1 .1 t h a t r e f e r s t o a c o n f lic t o f
in t e r e s t , b u t i t s a y s b e t w e e n h i s p e r s o n a l i n te r e s t a n d t h e B M F.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Ye s . C h a ir …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Is t h a t s o m e th in g d i ff e r e n t?
A D V H O F M E Y R : It is d i ff e r e n t .

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C H A I R P E R S O N : O h . O k a y.
A D V H O F M E Y R : Yo u s e e t h a t is - th a t i s m y c h a l le n g e w i th t h i s r e p o r t
a n d I r e a ll y w i ll a s k f o r Mr M a n y i ’s a s s i s t a n c e o f i t . I h a v e f o u n d o n e
r e fe r e n c e t o t h e f a c t t h a t t h e a l le g a t i o n w a s m a d e .

T h a t c o m e s fr o m

M i n is t e r M d la d la n a ’s r e s p o n s e to th e P u b li c P r o t e c t o r a s s h e w a s
in v e s t i g a t in g t h is c o m p l a i n t .

I - I h a v e s tr u g g l e d t o f in d a n y o th e r

fi n d i n g in r e l a ti o n t o th a t p a r ti c u la r is s u e . T h e f o c u s o f th e r e p o r t t h e n
b e c o m e s th e a l le g e d c o n fl ic t o f in t e r e s t b e tw e e n y o u r p o s i t io n a t B M F
and your role as DG.
10

MR MANYI: Ja.
A D V H O F M E Y R : I t is p o s s i b l e t h a t I h a v e m is s e d i t . It i s a l s o p o s s i b le
t h a t t h e r e is a n o t h e r r e p o r t . S o w e a r e j u s t g o i n g t o a s k M r M a n y i to
a s s is t u s o n th a t .
M R M A N Y I : N o . C h a ir, I - I t h i n k - I th i n k th e P u b l ic Pr o te c to r c o u l d
n o t p r o c e s s th is a n y fu r t h e r. I th i n k s h e m a k e s f i n d i n g s o n t h i n g s t h a t
have

been

p r o p e r ly

investigated

and

then

she

says

w i th

her

in v e s t i g a t io n a n d e v e r y t h i n g th is is th e fi n d i n g , b u t i f s h e c a l ls f o r
e v i d e n c e f o r h e r t o d o t h e in v e s t i g a t io n a n d n o th i n g c o m e s u p .
W e a r e c u t t in g h e r - h e r h a n d s . I d o n o t t h i n k s h e w a s a b l e
20

t o t a k e i t a n y f u r t h e r. T h a t is w h y I d o n o t fi n d i t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : N o . T h a t is h e lp …
CHAIRPERSON:

I t h in k w h a t y o u - I t h i n k w h a t - w h a t y o u c o u ld d o

o v e r n i g h t a n d o b v io u s ly M s H o f m e y r t o t h e e x te n t th a t h e m ig h t n e e d
m o r e ti m e w e w i ll d o th e s a m e .

Is j u s t t o lo o k a t t h e r e p o r t t o s e e

w h e t h e r i n t e r m s o f is s u e s t h a t t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r w o u l d s a y

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s o m e w h e r e a t t h e b e g i n n i n g o f t h e r e p o r t a r e th e is s u e s t h a t s h e is
d e a li n g w it h .
W h e t h e r t h e r e is a r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t p a r t ic u l a r is s u e a n d i f
t h e r e i s w h e t h e r s h e s a y s a n y t h in g f u r t h e r, b e c a u s e n o r m a lly y o u w o u l d
e x p e c t th a t i f a c o m p l a i n t i s r e f e r r e d t o t h e P u b l ic P r o te c t o r o r a n y
p a r t ic u l a r b o d y f o r i n v e s ti g a t i o n a n d t h a t b o d y m a k e s fi n d i n g s .

Yo u

w o u ld e x p e c t t h a t i f i t h a s b e e n u n a b le t o m e t o f in d e v i d e n c e t o ju s ti fy
a f i n d in g o n e w a y o r a n o t h e r t h a t i t w o u l d s a y s o e x p r e s s ly to s a y.
W e w e r e - t h i s c o m p l a i n t w a s r e f e r r e d t o u s . W e h a v e lo o k e d
10

in t o i t . W e a s k e d f o r e v id e n c e . T h i s is t h e f i n d in g . W h e th e r t h i s w a y
o r th a t w a y.

R a th e r t h a n le a v e i t h a n g i n g .

S o - s o i t n e c e s s a r y to

c h e c k w h e t h e r th is is a r e p o r t t h a t r e la t e s t o a m o n g o t h e r s t h a t is s u e o r
n o t a n d i f it is w h e t h e r s h e m a d e a f i n d i n g a n d i n r e g a r d t o t h a t ,
b e c a u s e a ls o i f s h e s a y s t h a t w a s o n e o f t h e is s u e s s h e w a s
in v e s t i g a t in g , b u t d o e s n o t m a k e fi n d i n g s o n i t .
T h a t m i g h t b e s o m e t h i n g e l s e a s w e ll , b u t i t is i m p o r t a n t t o
lo o k a t i t p r o p e r ly. O k a y.
M R M A N Y I : C h a ir, y o u s e e th is is a n o t h e r - f r o m w h e r e I s i t - i f i t w a s
a s t r a t e g ic a s M s H o ff m a n p u r p o r ts i t t o b e s u r e l y it w o u ld h a v e - i t 20

b e c a u s e i t w a s i n th e r e a l m o f t h i n g s t h a t A d v o c a t e H o ff m a n - t h e o t h e r
o n e - t h a t w a s - w a s c o m p la i n i n g a b o u t m y c o n f li c t o f i n te r e s t .
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h e o n ly o n e .
MR MANYI: Ja.
C H A I R P E R S O N : T h is o n e is H o f m e y r.
M R M A N Y I : O h . T h i s is H o f m e y r. S o r r y.

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : H o f m e y r. Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : I a l w a y s c a l l y o u H o ff m a n . S o r r y.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : A p o l o g i e s . A p o lo g ie s , y e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
M R M A N Y I : A d v o c a t e H o ff m a n , i t w a s i n t h a t r e a l m o f th in g s t h a t s h e
w a s - h e w a s r a is i n g a n d a l l th a t . S o - b u t i s i t fi n e . L e t u s s e e i f t h e r e
is a n y w h e r e it is m e n ti o n e d , b u t I a m a l m o s t s u r e .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . O k a y.
10

M R M A N Y I : I t i s - i t is a n o n - i s s u e .
CHAIRPERSON:

W e ll - t h a n k s .

M s H o f m e y r s i n c e Mr M a n y i is

p r e p a r e d t o c o m e b a c k t o m o r r o w.

I w o n d e r w h e t h e r t h e r e is m u c h

p u r p o s e t h a t w o u ld b e s e r v e d i n c o n ti n u i n g u n t il 5 o ’ c l o c k o r w h e th e r
w e s h o u ld s t o p .

S o t h a t h e c a n g e t a c h a n c e t o l o o k a t a l l th e

d o c u m e n ts t h a t h e m i g h t n e e d t o a n d t h e n t h e - e v e r y th in g c o u ld b e
q u ic k e r t o m o r r o w m o r n i n g w h e n h e h a s h a d a c h a n c e to lo o k a t
everything.
ADV HOFMEYR:

C h a ir, I w a s g o i n g to m o v e t o a n o t h e r t o p ic a t t h i s

p o i n t a n y w a y. S o i t s e e m s c o n v e n ie n t t o a d j o u r n …
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : To g iv e M r M a n y i t h a t o p p o r t u n i ty a n d t h e n …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : W h a t ti m e w o u l d y o u l ik e u s to c o m m e n c e t o m o r r o w ?
C H A I R P E R S O N : W h a t is y o u r a s s e s s m e n t o f h o w m u c h t i m e y o u m i g h t
n e e d w i t h Mr M a n y i to m o r r o w a n d w h a t - h o w m u c h t i m e y o u m ig h t n e e d

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w i t h Ms O li p h a n t …
ADV HOFMEYR: Chair …
CHAIRPERSON: Afterwards?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I a m fa ir ly o p ti m i s t ic w e w o u l d fi n i s h b o t h o f th e m in
t h e o r d i n a r y p e r i o d o f t h e d a y b e t w e e n 1 0 a n d fo u r.
CHAIRPERSON: Huh-uh.
ADV HOFMEYR:

Th e r e a r e q u it e a n u m b e r o f is s u e s t o tr a v e r s e w it h

M r M a n y i . I t h a s g o n e s l o w e r t h is a f t e r n o o n , b u t t h a t w a s b e c a u s e w e
t o o k q u i t e a w h i le …
10

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H O F M E Y R : In i ti a l ly to r e s o lv e is s u e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR:

S o a s I s t a n d a t th e m o m e n t I t h i n k I a m o p t i m is ti c

t h a t w e w i ll f in is h b o th w it n e s s e s w i t h o u t a n e a r ly s t a r t …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . A lr i g h t .
A D V H O F M E Y R : B u t h a v in g s a i d th a t …
CHAIRPERSON: Hm.
ADV HOFMEYR:

W o u l d it b e a p p r o p r i a te i f w e d o n e e d a b i t b e y o n d

f o u r t o s i t la t e r r a th e r t o m o r r o w t h a n s t a r t e a r ly ?
20

C H A I R P E R S O N : Fr o m m y s i d e t h a t s h o u l d b e fi n e . I c a n n o t r e m e m b e r
t h a t t h e r e is s o m e t h i n g a f te r t h e h e a r i n g .

A m e e t in g t h a t I h a v e o r

a n y th in g li k e t h a t . S o t h a t - t h a t w o u l d b e fi n e fr o m m y s i d e , b u t w e w i ll - w i ll M s O li p h a n t b e i n a p o s i t io n t o b e b e y o n d 4 o ’ c lo c k ?
s h e b e n e e d i n g t o ta k e a f li g h t?
A D V H O F M E Y R : W e c a n c h e c k w i th h e r

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W i ll

06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ta k e a f li g h t t o J o h a n n e s b u r g ?
ADV HOFMEYR:

M y u n d e r s t a n d i n g o f t h e S e c r e t a r i a t i s th e y t r i e d t o

s c h e d u l e th e f li g h ts a t le a s t t h e d a y a ft e r, b e c a u s e o f t h e r i s k t h a t
t h e r e i s a f o l lo w o v e r …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
ADV HOFMEYR: But I - I do not have accurate …
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : In f o r m a ti o n o n th a t . W e c a n m a k e i n q u ir i e s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s . N o . T h a t i s fi n e . Th e n m a y b e w h a t w e s h o u l d
10

d o is a d jo u r n a n d s t a r t n o r m a l t i m e a t 1 0 t o m o r r o w.
A D V H O F M E Y R : C e r t a i n ly.
C H A I R P E R S O N : A n d - b u t I - I ta k e t h a t w i th M r M a n y i y o u p r o b a b l y
w o u ld n o t n e e d m o r e th a n t w o h o u r s ?
A D V H O F M E Y R : I w o u l d e x p e c t s o C h a ir.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.
A D V H O F M E Y R : P a r ti c u la r ly i f w e m o v e f a s t e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : Ye s , y e s , y e s .
A D V H O F M E Y R : G i v e n th e ti m e t h a t M r M a n y i w i ll h a v e o v e r n i g h t.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

20

A D V H O F M E Y R : S o m e t h i n g o f t h a t o r d e r.
C H A I R P E R S O N : J a , j a . O k a y. M r M a n y i I d o n o t k n o w i f y o u w a n t t o
s a y a n y th i n g .
MR MANYI:

N o C h a ir.

T h a t w il l b e f i n e , b e c a u s e I h a v e g o t a fl ig h t

b a c k to c a tc h i n th e a ft e r n o o n to m o r r o w.
C H A I R P E R S O N : To m o r r o w ?

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06 NOVEMBER 2019 – DAY 187
M R M A N Y I : Ye s .
C H A I R P E R S O N : O k a y. O k a y. N o . T h a t i s f in e . T h a n k y o u v e r y m u c h
f o r y o u r c o o p e r a ti o n M r M a n y i . W e a r e g o i n g t o a d j o u r n n o w a n d t h e n
t o m o r r o w w e w il l r e s u m e a t 1 0 o ’ c lo c k i n t h e m o r n in g . W e a d jo u r n .
R E G I S T R A R : Al l r i s e .
I N Q U I R Y A D J O U R N S TO 7 N O V E M B E R 2 0 1 9

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